The “rescue fantasy” was a concept first coined by Freud, to describe male clients who (in his words):
…repeatedly fall in love with a woman who is ‘of bad repute sexually’ and ‘to whom another man can claim right of possession’.
Somewhat predictably, Freud accounted for this behaviour in terms of the Oedipal complex and the idea that men categorise women into a binary of virgins and whores. His assertions have steadily lost credibility over time (a good critique is available here), but the concept of the rescue fantasy has persisted.
A more modern definition might be: the tendency to become romantically attracted to people who are vulnerable or insecure in some way. It’s important to note that whether or not this potential partner is actually in need of rescue is incidental. The idea is that the desire to be needed is a significant driving force for the would-be rescuer.
The original definition of the term by Freud was set out in 1910, but he did not elaborate on the concept very much in later works. Some research has continued on the idea since then, but has taken a curious turn – towards examining the psychological motivations of therapists themselves, in wanting to “rescue” their clients.
In the context of limerence, the rescue fantasy would manifest as feeling the glimmer for limerent objects who are lost or tragically compromised in some way – such that the limerent can indulge in the fantasy of saving them and securing their devotion. Think white knight and damsel in distress, or innocent beauty redeeming a tortured soul.
This impulse could be seen as distasteful – a predatory attraction towards the vulnerable – but there is some subtlety to the concept that I think is often missed. Usually the desire is not for self-aggrandizement as the primary satisfaction, it is more like a desire to escape together to a state of grace. In “saving” the LO, the limerent too will be granted bliss.
Furthermore, “rescue” is a broad term that covers quite distinct psychological drives. Attraction to promiscuous women is not the same as attraction to emotionally distant men, but both could be considered a rescue fantasy – that through loving such a person their rehabilitation can be achieved.
To try and break this down a bit, it’s useful to delineate the forms of rescue that might provoke limerence – to list the sorts of limerent objects that can provoke ardour in those predisposed towards rescue fantasies.
1. The Fallen LO
This would be the classic Freudian case. A woman who has been corrupted by an immoral world, and must be saved from further ruin. The prostitute with a heart of gold, or the desperate mother abandoned by an irresponsible man and driven to extremes to support herself and her children. The idealisation of someone who is a victim of circumstances, but can be freed to live and love more healthily (and securely) through the undying love of the limerent.
Such archetypes nowadays seem paternalistic and old fashioned, but like most of the really deep drives that bubble up from the unconscious, they haven’t lost any of their power.
A broader definition of the “fallen” LO would include people who have lost status in some other way, or been stripped of dignity or pride. People who are bankrupt, or have lost their jobs, or their faith, or had their home foreclosed, or been abandoned by friends or family – people who evoke sympathy because of reduced circumstances that don’t reflect their True Value as a person.
2. The Lost LO
These are people who don’t seem to understand their own value or appeal. They are guileless and naive; unworldly perhaps, and confused by the behaviour of others. Life’s trials batter them. They don’t know where to turn. People in unhappy marriages to spouses who don’t appreciate them would fit this mould.
The desire here would be more towards protection of the vulnerable. This is less about renewal of lost virtue, and more about helping the LO reach their potential and blossom into a more confident and happy self. “Be with me”, beseeches the limerent, “and see how my devotion can lift you up.”
3. The Damaged LO
These are people who have been hurt in the past, and are afraid to love again. People with previously abusive partners, or abandonment fears, or traumatic childhoods. People who are sceptical and suspicious of the motives of others. People who struggle with trust, but – as you can sense with the extrasensory perception of a limerent – want to believe in redemption.
4. The Distant LO
The lone wolf who has cut themselves off from love. For whatever reason they are emotionally guarded and aloof. They are hard to get to know, and harder still to become intimate with. Alienated from love through their own choices, they present an irresistible challenge to the determined limerent.
The avoidant attachment type would fit this profile – the sort of person who pulls away when they sense affection. The more they insist they do not want to be saved from themselves, the more ardently the rescuer limerent will persist.
5. The Self-destructive LO
A slightly darker category of damaged LO: those who visit ruin upon themselves. These are the alcoholics, addicts, personality disordered, chaotic, morally corrupt, or the just plain sleazy. People who leave a trail of emotional destruction in their wake, and are careless and uninhibited in their behaviour.
For a certain type of limerent, such people represent a world-class opportunity to save. This is the realm of co-dependency, where the limerent enables the behaviour and finds succour in being the only stable person in the self-destructive LO’s life. Very unhealthy for all concerned.
6. The Hidden wound LO
A last category of rescuable LO is the most subtle. These are people who are not overtly in need of saving. They are high functioning in everyday life, and often charismatic, competent and seem to be Together. It is only once you get to know them better that you discover their hidden psychic wound.
The cause of their secret pain may fall into any of the preceding categories. For the limerent, the important part is that they are privy to some guarded vulnerability – the knowledge of which transforms their view of the LO and triggers the urge to save. It somehow adds to the specialness of the rescue that others aren’t even aware of the need.
The origin of “rescue limerence”
What is the cause of this impulse to save? Well, shock of shocks, it’s complicated.
First, there are some distinctions to be made. Individual LOs are complex people not archetypes, and so will likely have some mix of these tendencies blended together. Similarly, individual limerents will respond to different elements of these archetypes, and might actually be responding to something else without realising it – the rescue urge may be kindled after glimmering to some other aspect of the LO’s personality or appearance. Finally, there is also the fact that sometimes limerents are excited by the transgressive behaviour of an LO, turned on by sleaziness, or attracted to the confidence of an aloof LO – in other words, “rescue” is not the primary motive driving the limerence.
Putting those complications aside, the origin of rescue fantasies is going to lie in our personal histories. We can probably dispense with Freud’s fruitier incest theories, but for most of us the role models of masculinity or femininity during adolescence leave a lasting impact. If important adults in our lives demonstrated this tendency to save, it will leave an imprint. Similarly, romantic stories can be a formative influence in our understanding of love, and heaven knows a lot of them are based around the redemptive power of true love. It might be even simpler still, in that the first time that limerent feelings stirred within us, they happened to be for a person who was chaotic or lost.
Whatever elements of our past have shaped our tendencies, mutual care is also a central part of bonding. Of love. Much of the impulse to protect and save is concern for a treasured partner, harried by the same doubts, insecurities, struggles and pain as ourselves. The urge to rescue is not always a negative force – like so much else, it is only destructive if taken to excess.
However, when that urge for mutual care gets tangled up with the emotional overload of limerence it can become unhealthy, especially if it is directed towards an LO who it is not your job to save.
For those with rescuer tendencies, an important step in self-awareness, and limerence recovery, is to realise that the dynamic is fulfilling an emotional need in you, it is not a selfless act of charity. In the long run, it may also not be good for them.
Learning to distinguish genuine support from fantasy rescue is the key.
Limerent Emeritus says
Song of the Blog: “Rescue Me” – Fontella Bass (1965)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALQ6lzS-Npc
There’s probably a song for every type of LO referenced. If you want to dive into “Rescuer Reverie,” check out a lot of Meatloaf’s later works and pretty much anything by Richard Marx.
There was a lot of discussion of “Rescue” in https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-allure-of-bad-boys-and-girls/
“Usually the desire is not for self-aggrandizement as the primary satisfaction, it is more like a desire to escape together to a state of grace. In “saving” the LO, the limerent too will be granted bliss.” – Yeah…but, some people are beyond redemption, maybe even ourselves. As H. L. Mencken put it, “There is always an easy solution to every problem – neat, plausible, and wrong.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82RWHENWDb4 “Heart of the Night” – Juice Newton (1982)
“THERE IS NOTHING SO ALLURING AS A DAMAGED SOUL YOU’RE SURE YOU CAN FIX.” – It’s not just an expression, it’s a way of life…
This one is destined to be an LwL classic!
Marcia says
“Finally, there is also the fact that sometimes limerents are excited by the transgressive behaviour of an LO, turned on by sleaziness, or attracted to the confidence of an aloof LO – in other words, “rescue” is not the primary motive driving the limerence.”
This is how I would describe some of my LOs. Some a little sleazy. Transgressive (a huge turn on). Aloof and confident, but I had no rescue fantasy whatsoever. Oh, I suppose I wanted to unlock something in the aloof ones that no one else had been able to get to. But the word rescue, to me, implies the person doesn’t have their s**t together, which I don’t find sexy at all.
I’m wondering if the rescue fantasy is more a male fantasy.
Polosk says
There’s a whole trope of women wanting to fix bad boys and being the ones to tame them. Isn’t that a sort of rescue fantasy. People like fixing things. Even things they shouldn’t be fixing. Its like they say in Jurassic Park “Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should”
Marcia says
“There’s a whole trope of women wanting to fix bad boys and being the ones to tame them. Isn’t that a sort of rescue fantasy. ”
Idk. To me, the fantasy with the bad boy was not that I tamed him but that he picked me out of all his other options. Singled me out. But not fundamentally changed his personality. I dug the personality.
Like I said, it’s a fantasy. Because that guy is probably not limiting his options to one woman.
lowendj says
Yes.
Allie 1 says
I like to care and feel cared for but neither rescuing nor being rescued is my bag either. I would even go so far as to say that the idea of a man thinking I need him to rescue me feels a little patronising.
I know women rescuer types that deeply need to be needed by someone. They often seem to be attracted to fixer-uppers only to find out in the end that the fixer-upper is actually far more resilient than they are.
I was a but perturbed by the idea that a promiscuous woman equates to being “fallen”, vulnerable and/or in need of rescue. Would we say that of a promiscuous man? In the modern day, I would have said such a woman was the very opposite – to me she sounds secure, can take care of herself and is living her sexual life confidently and freely.
lowendj says
Ah, the age old double standard about sexually active woman!
Limerent Emeritus says
‘Slut’ used to mean a slovenly woman. Now it means a woman who will go to bed with everyone. This is considered a bad thing in a woman, although perfectly fabulous in a man. ‘Bitch’ means a woman who will go to bed with everyone but you.” – Cynthia Heimel, Get Your Tongue Out of My Mouth, I’m Kissing You Goodbye!
Welcome back, lowendj!
lowendj says
Thanks L.E.(not LE, ha! ) Oh, I’ve been lurking!
Limerent Emeritus says
Lowendj,
Miss your posts.
How’s the band?
lowendj says
Two projects, going well! Since my debacle, I’ve also moved to a better job and am very visible on social media. The best revenge is living well and purposefully! (Yeah, I know, but I feels great!)
Limerent Emeritus says
👍👍
“The best revenge is living well and purposefully! ”
It’s even better when we know that they know…
But, as Mick Jagger said, “You can’t always get what you want.”
Dr L says
That’s where the rescue comes in. Society has stigmatized the “wanton” woman, but our hero strides in, puts aside petty sexual jealousy, and shows her what true love is like.
KVV66 says
We (women) often say this about the promiscuous man, actually. We all either are or know someone who sees a womanizer and thinks “all he needs is a good woman” and fantasizes about being the one that “rescues” him by getting him to settle down.
carried away says
I agree with you Allie, these are the thought of an outdated patriarchy. Unfortunately women have not made the strides you would think in modern day society especially in the upper echelons of class.
carried away says
Seems like you have left out the narcissist – you know the one who is the rescuer – the bullier and the victim except they are not the LO but the Limerent – have you ever been the the the object of a narcissist. Perhaps then you will look at things differently.
Stupid girl says
Growing up, I was parentified. My mom was a single mom and me being the oldest, I was put in the role of other mom. My mom wasn’t affectionate; I wasn’t her daughter. I was her housekeeper/chef/babysitter. I was also sheltered. Dad left when I was 3.
I don’t know if it’s related but I now seek out damaged people. I want to save them from their shitty situation. For example, I find myself attracted to Chris Chan. Like I can be the one that shows them what a genuine lover I can be.
Tessa says
I’ve had a vague awareness for some time that I can get swept up with unavailable, broody men, but this description of the rescue fantasy and attraction to lost, secretly wounded, self-destructive, distant LOs is a real smack in the face for me. I’m currently coming down from (I think? I hope?) a LE, and am just starting to realise how unhealthy and one-sided it was, and how much fantasy was involved on my part. I’ve been so convinced by the high of connection that it was healthy, and “real” and ultimately healing for both of us, that it’s quite unsettling feeling the scales fall away from my eyes so suddenly. It’s uncomfortable to realize how deeply I convinced myself that I alone could heal my damaged, distant LO through the power of my love, and how deeply I was able to fool myself about it. This post has really helped me re-frame some deeply deluded thinking I’ve been indulging in. Thank god for this blog!
Speedwagon says
The rescue fantasy is intertwined in my LE. My LO is married and in what I would call a disappointing marriage. Her husband is not successful financially, in fact right now he is jobless (they live with his parents), he is not a strong parenting partner to their two young kids, and he seems to be a lack luster partner in terms of providing her support and affection. Why she married him and how he “got” my LO is beyond me. He is a really good looking guy so I guess that must have been it. She has been very stressed about their life lately, and I can see that she just pours her energy into raising her kids. This is what has given her life purpose and meaning apart from her SO.
My LO is quite a meek and submissive person so I see why the cycle continues on in their marriage without change. Problem for me is, I just want to save her from all this. She deserves much better and I feel for her. I am her boss so I am already a financial provider to her but I also want to be an emotional provider to her full stop. I want her to need me every day, to need me more than her husband.
The reality is most of the time she doesn’t need me. She is not reaching out to me for support, or companionship, or whatever else a limerent like myself wants to feel from her. She is not mine to save, she knows it, but I don’t. I understand it intellectually but I don’t feel it. Until I understand this completely I won’t move past my LE. Her choices were hers alone and her issues are not mine.
But, damn, if it doesn’t make her so irrisitable to me, the thought of her needing me, desiring me instead of her husband, and my role of rescuing her from all her troubles.
I think honestly, she does appreciate me a lot and probably sees me as a type of male role model. I am appreciative, caring, and encouraging of her in her work. She is good at her job and I let her know that from time to time. I think she could look at a person like myself and think…”I wish my husband were like him”, without necessarily wanting me to actually be her husband.
Limerent Emeritus says
Be careful!
It’s easy to get slowly drawn in. God help you if she starts to trust you and starts opening up to you.
Being the confidante of an unhappy attached woman is like getting into the back seat of a getaway car fleeing the scene of a crime.
You’re not driving. She’s not listening. Her SO is in the front seat with her. Your SO is in the backseat with you.
You have no idea where you’re going. You may not be able to get out whenever you want to. And, things are likely to end badly.
She crashes, you burn.
Speedwagon says
I hear you!!! Thank you for the warning. Luckily she has not opened up at an intimate level yet and I don’t ask. But I need to stay diligent not to get drawn in as you say.
Speedwagon says
So I already failed miserably today. I took my LO on an out of office outing, and what was supposed to be 2 hrs most ended up nearly 5 hours due to setbacks and change of circumstances. A lot of time in car and a lunch out together equalled a lot of good and easy conversation that went more personal than we have ever been. Not flirty but very relational. There is no doubt we have a good conversational chemistry and I had the tendency a couple times to say affectionate things that I probably should not say. In one instance, I told her she had beautiful eyes (in context of a conversational topic we were on).
She is more guarded than me, she does not reciprocate back affectionate talk really but at same time she is very comfortable with me. In car she sits leaning in towards me, at lunch she sat adjacent to me at a square table instead of across. She leans in with eye contact when we talk and gave little touches to my arm a couple times during conversation.
It felt very warm and relational the whole time. BUT…at this moment I realize this can never happen again if I am going to ever get past my LE with her. All I did was throw gas on the proverbial fire and I am setting myself up for a depressive crash. I won’t text her and I doubt she would text this weekend, we just are not really in that routine much, and starting Monday I need to get back on the LC horse.
Limerent Emeritus says
I love this movie!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyHkKUcrgq4 – “Play It Again, Sam” (1972)
Limerent Emeritus says
Boundaries, Speed, boundaries….
https://livingwithlimerence.com/oversharing/#comment-11470
Maintain your own boundaries because you can’t rely on your LO maintaining hers.
rufio says
You could be me. However my LO is much younger and getting married soon. This has never happened to me before so it all feels kind of embarrassing. I see a lot of the same “signs” from her, including lots of eye contact and body posture. I’m always wondering if it is just her being very comfortable with me at this point or if somewhere in her mind you finds me attractive. Good news is she is moving in 3 months because I’ve have lost absolute control and alter my day to bump into her etc. Heard about this site from a podcast trying to get help. Feels good to vent.
Lovisa says
Good luck Rufio. Sorry to say, but her friendly contact may just be her personality.
Speedwagon says
Right now my head is spinning. After our day together my LO shot me texts on two separate occasions that Friday night. Then she texted me last night, and then I texted her today and we had a 3 hr texting session.
Something has changed with us in the past 2 weeks. Prior to that she was very guarded with any out of work hour texting but now she seems to be more interested in staying connected to me relationally, initiated 50-50 and being very conversational with me over text. This is uncharted territory for me.
She is not overtly flirty, but as I have mentioned, our in person interactions are very warm and filled with positive body language. I would consider our eye contact to be very gazey and there are numerous stolen glances with each other each day.
Throw in these off work texting sessions now and I feel like I am engaged in the beginning stages of an EA. There is no way two married people do this without understanding it’s not normal married behavior. I suppose there is a chance she just sees me as a friend without romantic interest but, it just doesn’t feel that way to me. But, being in the throws of LE I might not have the most sound judgement.
I am trying to figure out how I feel about all this and how to proceed. Can I remain in this state of relationship indefinitely? Probably not! It feels good now, but I know I will want to keep pushing boundaries. Or maybe she will pull back, I am still expecting her to go back to being aloof with me over text instead of engaging.
I sometimes think, as part of the rescue fantasy, that if this provides her enjoyment and relief, from her ho hum marriage than I am glad to provide my affection and attention to her. But I think the further this goes she will probably also feel stress if not so already and I will lose control.
Again, trying to sort it all out because it seems to have come in so quick.
Lovisa says
Hi Speedwagon,
“There is no way two married people do this without understanding it’s not normal married behavior.” I do it. My husband knows I do it. I have a handful of male friends who I text with. Sometimes long conversations sometimes short. The topics and frequency vary. I’m not attracted to most of them but I love their friendship and I genuinely care about them.
And you figured out why my husband is okay with it…
“… if this provides her enjoyment and relief, from her ho hum marriage [actually it was depression. I have a great marriage. But my kids endured a trauma that I couldn’t recover from and I sank into a dark depression] than I am glad to provide my affection and attention to her.”
That is why I do it and why my husband is okay with me having male friends. We both noticed that when I reconnected with LO2 and his friends a year ago, my depression went away and my libido heightened. So I have boundaries with my male friends and I rarely cross them. I’ve never crossed a boundary that would be a dealbreaker for my husband. I know because we talk about it.
I guess I am getting my emotional needs met through my friends. They seem to get something from me, too. One of them told me that I make him feel like he is seen and good enough. I think that is important so why not continue? Your LO may enjoy your friendship. It really could be that simple.
But, this is important, disclosing attraction is a game changer. I highly recommend against disclosure. It makes the relationship so much harder. I naively disclosed to LO1 because I thought it would help if we addressed the elephant in the room. It made things much worse and that one turned into an EA. Seventeen years of off and on limerence. It was torture.
I naively disclosed to LO2 because he was down on himself, he thought he wasn’t desirable. I told him I think he is desirable. I was just trying to comfort my friend, but he reciprocated and our relationship got weird. It is better now, but not fully recovered. That LE was awful! It was so bad that I intentionally used transference to my current LO.
I learned my lesson from my first two LEs: never disclose in any way, keep the fantasies to a minimum and be consistent with communication.
I didn’t anticipate that my current LO would disclose his attraction to me. He was addressing the elephant in the room. We have been able to get through it, but it would have been better if we didn’t know that there is mutual attraction between us.
I really wonder about the sleeping beauty and Adam and Eve principle. Eve awakened Adam and the prince awakened sleeping beauty. I felt awakened by LO2 and I still needed that awakening when I switched to LO3. I think I can move on now, but limerence was a strange blessing and curse for about a year. I’m not convinced that I have limerence for my current LO though I definitely had it during the summer months. I think it is fizzling out and as the limerence fades away, we are left with a lovely friendship.
That was probably more information than you wanted. I’m curious, if she really sees you as just a friend, would you continue your long conversations with her knowing that it isn’t going anywhere? If she is just getting her emotional needs met through you, is that good enough?
rufio says
Lovisa,
I’m almost certain it is her being friendly/trusting me. We have some deep conversations about family and what not. It doesn’t really matter in the grand scheme but part of the addiction is trying to find out, ya know? I’ve noticed things like if I sit next to he she’ll turn her chair or body to face me. When we speak she sometimes moves closer and we often stare directly into each others eyes for long periods and I don’t seem to catch this with other people. I understand as well limerence can make you see things that aren’t there. I agree with your statement of never disclosing. I’m just waiting out the last 3 months she will be here. Torn between relieved and sad. As I said before it feels nice to write some of these thoughts down and get feed back.
Lovisa says
Rufio, it sounds like you have a good plan to wait out the next few months. I hope your LE isn’t bringing you too much discomfort. You are right that part of limerence is trying to make sense of things. I’m glad you are processing your feelings here instead of processing them with your LO.
Best of luck!
Limmy says
@ Lovisa
This is so interesting, thank you for sharing.
I have wondered a lot about limerence being a mood regulator, and you say it helps with depressive feelings. It seems a bit like taking meds that have a danger of becoming additive.
And it is interesting that your husband is on-board with it too. Do you tell him about the disclosures to/from LOs? He’s okay with those too?
Lovisa says
You are welcome, Limmy. And thank you for the nice compliment.
I agree that limerence for mood regulation is like taking meds that can lead to addiction. I think I was addicted to limerence, but not now.
I’m trying to remember if I told my husband specifically about each disclosure. Probably not. My husband knows that I took things too far with LO1. By the way, I no longer have contact with LO1. I don’t think that my husband knows which of my friends are attracted to me or vise versa. I saw a YouTube video that recommended against telling your spouse who you find attractive. So I don’t do that. But he knows that I text my male friends and we often talk about the contents of those conversations.
Speedwagon says
“I’m curious, if she really sees you as just a friend, would you continue your long conversations with her knowing that it isn’t going anywhere? If she is just getting her emotional needs met through you, is that good enough?”
That is a good question. I think at this time I would say yes, if she continued to be reciprocal, because at this time conversing with her seems to suppress a lot of my more depressive LE moods. But I don’t think I could answer that for certain unless I knew that for certain and started to feel whatever emotions came along with it.
As for friendship vs romantic attraction with her, my whole LE started with her because I started to sense more of an attraction from her. This is a woman I worked with 3.5 years prior to my LE so I already knew her demeanor with me for a while and all of a sudden 10 months ago a vibe changed and she initiated a few personal texts which she had never done before. I have long thought that it wasn’t necessarily romantic feelings but more feelings of being a male role model to her but I have dated enough girls in my life to know when the vibe feels like attraction and this is it. A lot of the same things Rufio is experiencing. Long, almost awkward sometimes, eye gazing. Very open and close body language. One of the more telling things, my office door is next to a door of a small break room. When going into the break room door, you pass by my door. My desk is situated that you need to make a head turn back behind you a bit to see me. She will do this about half the time when passing by to gain eye contact with me. Not one other person in the office does this. Ever. She does it multiple times a week. Just a lot of weird cues that are different from any other female in the office.
I think what I want is maybe this I’m experiencing now, a very warm and affectionate in person relationship that does not cross professional boundaries, and some level of out of office personal relationship, through texting, that keeps me connected to her. I am hoping that can keep me content until a point my LE for her starts to fade. It’s probably wishful thinking but as I write this I have not felt as at peace with her in last 10 months as I do right now.
Oh…and I would never initiate disclosure being her boss. And I understand your point about the difficulties if she did, so perhaps I just hope that does not happen and enjoy the mystery and connection with her.
Limerent Emeritus says
Ok, Speedy,
Tough love time.
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=vid&q=gibbs+slap&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiXhq34-IX8AhVEElkFHTe6Cg0Q8ccDegQIDBAH&biw=1536&bih=750&dpr=1.25#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:6a1e17e7,vid:boY7i11aYRA
Pay attention…
Since you seem to want to manage the risk rather than avoid it, you can try it. Simmering along nicely in the limerent soup for the long haul takes work. A lot of potentially anxiety causing work. The kind of anxiety that wakes you up in the middle of the night. The kind of anxiety that tips off your SO. The kind of anxiety that compels you to do something stupid and get yourself fired. Then again, it might not. It doesn’t for everybody. Some of us are more cold-blooded than others.
Keep in mind the following. To pull it off, you’ll need 3 things going for you.
1. You need to know what you’re doing. You need an iron-clad sense of self, perception, and foresight. You need to be aware of your surroundings and manage your leakage. Most SOs aren’t stupid or clueless. Neither are most LOs for that matter. They know what “normal” looks like. You can change you’re behavior but you have to do it slowly and make it look credible.
2. Logistics need to work in your favor. Since your LO is your subordinate, that’s not working in your favor. Long-haul truckers, airline pilots, and traveling salespeople have conducive logistics.
3. Your LO needs to behave herself and stay on script. Some don’t. You don’t control them. Also, you need to hope that your LO is not malicious or vindictive. Mishandle this and piss her off, she can cause a lot of trouble. If your LO is already unhappy, you don’t want her taking it out on you. When managing risk, you need to keep the idea of “just because they aren’t, doesn’t mean they can’t,” in the back of your mind. As her boss, your fanny is hanging out a mile.
Here’s your homework.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/do-they-like-me-too/ – A nearly universal question for limerents
https://livingwithlimerence.com/flirting-at-work/ – Likely coming
https://livingwithlimerence.com/can-limerence-be-safely-harnessed/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-for-a-co-worker/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/when-does-limerence-become-an-emotional-affair/ – has a link to a great list of EA indicators
https://livingwithlimerence.com/if-i-only-knew/ – A seemingly inevitable question for limerents
https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-morality-of-limerence/ – Less about judgment than a collection of cautionary tales in the comments
Learning from your mistakes is good. Learning from other peoples’ mistakes is better. Stay in or get out. Pick one. Waffling is the worst thing you can do. It makes you prone to mistakes. You can’t afford to make many.
One last thought for the season. Imagine yourself sitting in the candlelight service on Xmas Eve with your wife and kids and wondering why it isn’t your LO sitting next to you. I can tell you what that feels like. It feels like S–t.
Speedwagon says
See, I don’t need you to be hitting me with sound reasoning and logic. I would much prefer to stew in my fantasy.
But this site is great for a guy check and that is what I need right now because my mind is a jumbled mess. Thank you.
Speedwagon says
Meant to say gut check
Lovisa says
Wow Limerent Emeritus, I feel like your message should end with a mic drop.
I agree that Speedwagon needs a plan if he intends to move forward in the LE. When I consciously decided to be friends with men, I wrote a list of personal boundaries. I also bounced some ideas off my husband. At the top of that list was “no disclosing attraction” and, like you pointed out, my LO went off script and disclosed his attraction to me. I hadn’t prepared for that. Unfortunately, if that happens to Speedwagon, I recommend that he lies and tells his LO that he only sees her as a friend. I wasn’t strong enough to lie to my LO, but I also wasn’t prepared for his disclosure. He was so vulnerable when he disclosed and I couldn’t pretend that I lacked attraction for him, too. It was cruel not to be honest.
Limerent Emeritus says
” At the top of that list was “no disclosing attraction” and, like you pointed out, my LO went off script and disclosed his attraction to me. I hadn’t prepared for that…I wasn’t strong enough to lie to my LO, but I also wasn’t prepared for his disclosure. He was so vulnerable when he disclosed and I couldn’t pretend that I lacked attraction for him, too. It was cruel not to be honest.” – https://livingwithlimerence.com/how-to-get-rid-of-limerence/#comments
It’s slightly different since I disclosed but not wanting to lie to someone you care about is really a pretty nice trait. Not wanting to lie to LO #4 was one of the reasons I later went to war with her at one point. When we ended things, we both knew where we were and where things stood.
But, going back to Speedy, I wasn’t at social or professional risk taking on LO #4.
Here’s another cautionary tale: https://livingwithlimerence.com/barriers-and-uncertainty/#comment-3739
Moral of the story: The best of intentions don’t always yield good results.
Lovisa says
Limerent Emeritus, thank you for sharing your experience with disclosure. Sorry, but it made me laugh because it was so relatable and her response was predictable.
“I thought that if I came clean and told her I’d become attracted to her, she’d see the irony in reaching out to a married guy, throw the flag, and end things. Not necessarily noble but, at the time, she was big on not being lied to and things would end honestly. It backfired and she wanted to get closer.”
I think my LO had a comparable mindset when he disclosed to me. And of course I wanted closeness from him. Of course your LO wanted closeness from you. Us girls are like that. We like close friends. We neeeeeeeed close friends. Here is something that I think might differ between the sexes. I know I can be close to a man without having sex with him. I think it is difficult for men to be close to a woman without having sex. My LO and I addressed this issue. I said that I can experience attraction without acting on it and I asked if he could. He said he could and we mutually decided to continue our friendship. It is still working after 7 months. I think I’m just lucky that my current LE is working well. Like you said…
“Moral of the story: The best of intentions don’t always yield good results.”
And as far as Speedwagon, Rufio and let me add Ryan are concerned, I’m so happy that you are warning them about the dangers of limerence for a subordinate. Yes, they must be very cautious!
I’m curious, what do mean when you say that you went to war with LO4?
Limerent Emeritus says
Lovisa,
tl/dr
After I disclosed, I told LO #4 that I was resigning as a moderator from her site because I’d become attracted to her. She said, “I’m flattered and under different circumstances, might even be curious. But, circumstances are what they are.” She also said that she understand and if I ever got my feelings under control, she’d welcome me back.
LO #4 had said some very intimate (not sexual) things about her breakup. She said that I opened up her eyes to what was going on in her relationship, she felt like I had her back, and that I’d been her rock when everything fell apart on her. She said that she appreciated my support and encouragement. As things went on, she’d say something, I’d respond and either I’d get crickets or her response had nothing to do with what I had said. It’s like I’d gone from Hero to Zero.
After a short period of NC, I thought I had gotten my feelings under control and reestablished contact. I didn’t go back to work for her. I thought that we’d just drift into NC naturally. There’s a phenomenon that I call “the bounce” where you say goodbye, re-establish contact for awhile and say goodbye for good or eventually drift into permanent NC. I think it happened in all my previous relationships.
I was 3 months into NC. I ran into our EAP counselor and she asked how things were going. I told her that I hadn’t heard a peep out of LO #4 for 3 months. That night, I got an email from LO #4. It was a totally BS email.
It gnawed on me. I let her have it. I told her that I found her style dismissive and that it was a lousy way to do business. I also compared her to LO #2 by name. LO #2 operated that way and I didn’t like it coming from LO #4 than I did from LO #2. I told her if she kept it up, one day she’d piss off someone who really cared about her.
You can pick up the story here. https://livingwithlimerence.com/indecisive-los/#comment-9651
I went at her. I was done dancing. I was going to bring everything out in the open. I knew it would destroy the acquaintance but it had become unsustainable. I couldn’t walk the line anymore. If it wasn’t going to die a natural death, I’d force one.
LO #4 brought my wife into the discussion and shot the elephant in the room. LO #4 threw the flag and I didn’t disagree with a single thing she said. I was in a position where to advance things with LO #4 I would have to destroy my marriage and family or I’d try to have an affair and become no better than her cheating ex. I definitely wasn’t going to do the former and I’d lose any respect LO #4 ever might have had for me had I chosen the latter. Having her trust and respect was important to me. Once someone gives me their trust, I hate to lose it.
Checkmate!
PS: LO #4 is an INTJ
Lovisa says
Thanks for answering my question, Limerent Emeritus. You were obviously invested in LO4 and it sounds like letting go was a challenge. You chose the higher ground, I admire your strength.
Limerent Emeritus says
Lovisa,
Letting go was a challenge. I worked with an EAP counselor because I’d seen this before and I knew where things could go. I needed somebody to keep my head straight so I didn’t do anything blatantly stupid. In the end, I wasn’t good. I was lucky.
In her goodbye, LO #4 said that I couldn’t keep our relationship platonic. She was right. To keep things alive, I’d have to convince her she was wrong when she wasn’t.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmo36gnUCWE – “Can’t Fight This Feeling” – REO Speedwagon (no irony here)]
I’d put myself in a no-win situation and she backed me into a corner. I knew where my loyalties lie and I needed to get out. I didn’t want to hurt my wife and family. I didn’t want to hurt LO #4. I didn’t want to hurt anybody.
In my response, I came back with a summary of this:
“The truth is, they may never do anything physical in life. They may never cross the line. But a relationship can never be truly platonic if you have to set up boundaries. A relationship can never be truly platonic if you have to adjust your feelings. A relationship can never truly be platonic if you have to pretend that you are happy with the way things really are…when deep down—you want something more.” – https://thoughtcatalog.com/christopher-lai/2015/12/can-a-man-and-a-woman-really-have-a-platonic-relationship/
Against those criteria, it wasn’t a platonic relationship for me and I told her that. I told her that maybe the takeaway from all this was even if you’re not looking for trouble, you can still find it. I told her that she reached out to me and I turned her into a threat.
In 10 days, it will be 7 years since we had that exchange. We had one short exchange since.
Speedy needs to be careful: “He was first attracted to her because she had sex appeal but as he got to know her more and more—she became beautiful. Controlling his feelings will become that much more difficult. And when he is vulnerable, he’s no longer in control.”
I really like that article.
Lovisa says
Oh nuts, Limerent Emeritus, are you saying men and women can’t ever be platonic friends?
Maybe my naive female perspective isn’t helpful to Speedwagon or Rufio. I’m enjoying my seemingly platonic friendship with my LO, but I guess I don’t know how he experiences it.
I want to believe I can have LO in my life as long as we don’t cross boundaries. And I am so motivated not to cross a boundary because I don’t want to lose LO and I don’t want to hurt anyone.
It sounds to me like you proved yourself to be an honorable man when you ended things with LO4.
What does this mean?
“ In her goodbye, LO #4 said that I couldn’t keep our relationship platonic. She was right. To keep things alive, I’d have to convince her she was wrong when she wasn’t.”
Sorry I don’t understand why it couldn’t be a platonic relationship.
Limerent Emeritus says
Lovisa,
I’m not saying men and women can’t ever be platonic friends. I have one. She’s married to one of my best friends. However, I don’t have anything to do with her apart from them as a couple. I have a few friends and several buddies. None of my buddies are women.
It couldn’t be platonic because I couldn’t keep it that way. She seemed to do just fine but she said some intensely personal things to me.
I had to put up boundaries. I’d disclosed that I was attracted to LO #4. I had to suppress those if I wanted to move things along. A week after I accepted her FB friend request, I had a dream about her in which I almost drove my car off a cliff. I couldn’t pretend being platonic friends was good enough. I wanted to be the shoulder she buried her face in and hold her as she cried. I know what it feels like for a woman to cling to me and cry so hard that I could wring her tears out of my shirt. When LO #4 told me she’d been crying, it drove me nuts. I wasn’t the problem, I was the solution.
To keep things alive, I’d have to lie to LO #4 and be convincing about it. I’d have to convince both of us that those feelings never existed.
There’s an adage in business school that says you shouldn’t be doing well what you shouldn’t be doing at all. I shouldn’t have been involved with LO #4 on the level. I did make one attempt to see if we could reset thing but by then, she’d had enough. It was the right answer.
Lovisa says
Limerent Emeritus,
That makes sense. Thanks for explaining why you couldn’t be friends with LO4. You cared about her and it was hard to see her in pain. You also couldn’t fake casual feelings towards her. I admire how you handled the situation.
rufio says
Ok Speedwagon, I wanted to run something past you to see if this is the same feeling or vibe you speak of when having eye contact. Today I was having a conversation alone with my LO and she was keeping very direct eye contact(which seems to happen a lot when we are alone). There was a moment when I felt something passed between us and it gave me the fuzzy brained, lightheaded feeling I’ve known well in the past when dating someone. Almost magnetic. I noticed that her eyes were dilated as well which gave me quite the surge. This was the first time that has happened so it caught me a bit off guard. I would pay a pretty penny just to know if any part of it was real. I do worry about fooling myself as there hasn’t been much physical contact. She actually stopped short of touching me today while telling a story and gesturing. Round and round we go. As I’ve mentioned my quest with my LO seems to be almost investigative. I actually hope she has a beautiful marriage and life when she moves on soon.
Lovisa says
Rufio,
Aww, I love your attitude! “ I actually hope she has a beautiful marriage and life when she moves on soon.”
Sorry to be difficult, but I love eye contact. Your LO might love it, too. I like eye contact from anyone who doesn’t creep me out. It isn’t a sign of attraction if it comes from someone who just enjoys eye contact. That being said, I don’t do eye contact unless I am communicating with someone because that would fall into the creepy category for me. If she holds a stare with no communication, well, good luck.
eye contact + communication = probably not attraction
eye contact w/o communication = possible attraction
rufio says
You’re not being difficult Lovisa! Responses like yours are the reason I post. They are what I am looking for. Opinions and thoughts from others to help me sort out my situation. I think where I am going wrong is just forgetting that attraction can exist without such a pressing attachment like the one I feel emotionally. In fact that is how I am attracted 99% of the time. She is like me as well in the personality category(INFP if you’re into that sort of thing). Which I’m guessing means I can’t exactly hide of a lot things from her on certain levels but she chooses to be close often and never once has pushed me away. I joke that people are often my superpower and I’ve never really been wrong when gauging attraction or other signs from people. Most read like a book. Even if there is some attraction there it is the “well, he’s cute and it is nice to talk to him” and ends there. I almost find it a bit funny that limerence has made me forget that is how most of the worlds’ and my interactions go. Again, thank you for the replies!
Lovisa says
Rufio, I’m glad my replies are helpful. That is my goal.
I think you are on to something…
“ I think where I am going wrong is just forgetting that attraction can exist without such a pressing attachment like the one I feel emotionally.”
Yes! It sounds like your LO is drawn to you on some level, but not necessarily the way you are drawn to her. She might genuinely want to keep things appropriate and isn’t that ideal?
As far as the personality types, I have very limited knowledge of them. I took a test once that revealed I am an INFJ-T whatever that means. Hopefully I haven’t just revealed too much information about myself by sharing that. I really don’t know the significance. I’m curious how you would know her personality type. Did she tell you?
Limerent Emeritus says
On the subject of eyes:
In https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-glimmer-givers/, DrL says the most common trigger in Tennov’s sample of limerents was their LO’s eyes.
It wasn’t mine. https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-glimmer-givers/#comment-25042
Speedwagon says
Rufio, I am in your same boat. There are plenty of women that I have normal relationships with whether it be professional or personal. I also have 3 other female employees. With all of them eye contact happens in a normal fashion. With my LO it is something more. It is what I first started noticing when the glimmer happened with her. I can quantify it, I just know it when I feel it.
I had an intense mutual infatuation on a girl a number of years back that turned into a short intense love affair. That spark I had back then with that girl feels very similar to the spark I now have with my LO. It just feels like it is something more than normal friendship feelings.
But, my LO is also reserved. She does not touch me other than little quick conversational touches. She does not say inappropriate affectionate things. She does not discuss her marriage even though I know it is not great. So we move along in our dance very slowly and we are nowhere in the ballpark of a PA.
I am now quite certain she is attracted to me, I am not certain she is limerent. Like Lovisa says, this could just be filling an emotional need for her without her obsessing over me like I do her.
For now I am content with what is going on but I am monitoring myself closely each day.
Lovisa says
Okay maybe she is attracted to you. So. Does it matter? You won’t act on it because you are a decent human being. You just identified what you really want…
“ I think what I want is maybe this I’m experiencing now, a very warm and affectionate in person relationship that does not cross professional boundaries, and some level of out of office personal relationship, through texting, that keeps me connected to her.”
You want emotional intimacy with her. What if you can have that connection without crossing marital or professional boundaries? Can you? How? Will it hurt your marriage?
Let me tell you a story. I was a foster mom to a 6-year-old boy. One day I learned that when he visited his friend’s house, he was actually playing board games with his friend’s mom. I felt like a failure because I should be the one playing board games with him. His therapist disagreed. She said it was healthy for him to get some of his needs met outside our home. I agree now and I am grateful to the woman who played board games with my son. We can’t get all of our needs met at home. But, obviously, married people should only get their sexual needs met by their spouse. I feel passionate about that.
Here is another story. The other day I visited my husband at work. It was a stressful day and I could see how the stress weighed heavy on him. I wished I could relieve his tension, but there was nothing I could do. I noticed something interesting. My husband walked past a female colleague and talked about the situation. I saw relief come over him. I felt and still feel grateful that she works with my husband because she is competent and kind. She makes my husband’s work-life better.
I’m trying to say that I think we can have “very warm and affectionate in-person relationship[s] that do not cross boundaries.”
rufio says
Lovisa ,
“I’m curious how you would know her personality type. Did she tell you?”
Indeed. She was excited we were “the same”. Possibly another component to why we connect so well. Yesterday was a bad day for me emotionally. I’m trying to avoid her today even though I can feel pulled to wander over to her side of the building. It is quite the battle but I’m just repeating to myself it isn’t real and thinking of the time I met her fiancé. No say I can’t tell her merry Christmas and happy new year tomorrow though as we leave for a week. 😂
Lovisa says
Rufio,
Thanks for answering my question. It makes sense that you would know her personality type since she told you. I’m sorry you are going through a rough patch. Hang in there. You can do it.
Speedwagon says
Lovisa and LE, everything you are saying is not lost on me and I appreciate the warnings. I am well aware of the dangers of this thing that is happening and right now my mind is trying to make sense of it all since it’s really only been about 2-3 weeks of this reciprocal relationship with my LO.
On one hand I have lived for 10 months in a numb LE state of being with her trying to figure out how to coexist with her day to day. So now that she has reciprocated relational interest thru texting my mood has lifted and I like that. At the same time the whole thing could be a house of cards and could come crashing down around me leaving me in a worse state than before.
I am trying to figure out what I am OK with. Is it OK to have another woman in my life that provides me friendship and non sexual affection? How much is OK? How often? I just don’t know right now. We have not crossed any professional legal boundaries and I am acutely aware of what those are with her. But, not going to lie, I like the attention from her. We have a good chemistry and she makes me feel good.
Right now I just want to proceed with great caution but still proceed with this relationship with her that is budding. If I feel myself falling more into the throws of an EA or things getting overtly flirty, I am inclined to back way off. But I am aware too that I can’t control her so I hope she feels the same right now in terms of the boundaries of our relationship. I think she does, she is a reserved, guarded person. I don’t see her making bold advances at me.
Christmas break is coming and I won’t see her for nearly 2 weeks. That break will be telling I think.
Limerent Emeritus says
$5 says you hear from her over the break.
Lovisa says
Lol!
Who do you think will reach out first LO or Speedy?
Speedwagon says
I will reach out at some point probably. But she has been initiating more than me lately so I would not doubt it to be her.
I’ll keep you posted.
Limerent Emeritus says
“If I feel myself falling more into the throws of an EA or things getting overtly flirty, I am inclined to back way off.”
Once that ship sails, you may find it harder than you think to back off.
Keep posting!
Lovisa says
“I am trying to figure out what I am OK with. Is it OK to have another woman in my life that provides me friendship and non sexual affection? How much is OK? How often?”
Great questions Speedwagon! Answer those questions and you are ready to move forward. You and Mrs. Speedwagon are the only people who can answer these questions for you, but I’ll offer my thoughts.
Let’s assume my hubby was in your shoes.
Here is a starting point for your boundaries. Your order of priorities are family, work then friends. So if your contact with LO interferes at all with family or work, you must pull back. Btw if you become aware that it interferes with her family or work, pull back. Add religion to the priority list if it applies to you. No negative talk about either SO ever. Since you work together, no physical contact. Never ever disclose attraction. Keep the flirting to a minimum. Accept that you will stay married to Mrs. Speedwagon and you will never experience physical intimacy with LO. If you catch yourself liking LO more than your SO, pull back and work on your marriage. And consider asking Mrs. Speedwagon what boundaries you should have with female friends.
Keep in mind that most limerents can’t have friendships with their LO. I think it’s possible. I’ve been friends with mine since April and I am friends with my last LO. It takes predetermined personal boundaries and a lot of self awareness.
Another thing is that I can’t predict how Mrs. Speedwagon feels about you having female friends. Whatever she says, go with that. My husband gave me permission to have male friends. His boundaries were, “Just don’t like them more than me and don’t leave me for one of them.” Later we added another boundary, if my plans with a male friend feel like a date to my husband, I don’t go. We have a few more boundaries that have come up as situations arise.
Good luck and consider where this advice came from. A stranger on the internet. My intentions are good, but I could be way off. You really do have to figure this one out for yourself.
rufio says
@ Limerent Emeritus
The eyes have it. She has beautiful eyes. It could very well be what hooked me. I never paid an inordinate amount of attention to her the first 4 or so months we worked together. Besides being young she isn’t a woman that would make men stop and turn on the street. Somewhere along the way though I was bewitched. I thought today as we had a little 45 minute chat to say good bye for the holidays “she’s so beautiful”. It always strikes me deep and tries to undo all the self talk I’ve been working on. I didn’t completely break down today but I feel a little empty. I love those talks though and I love the way she makes eye contact. Over the course of my life I’ve definitely gotten a lot of compliments on my eyes from women. I wonder if I have ever been someone’s LO. If I have I imagine that is the way my friend feels now. Oblivious. Seems like a good reminder to enjoy the time and her company while I have it and let her go gracefully when the time comes. I would want that in her shoes. Ohhh, but it is hard. I really want to dream of her tonight haha.
Limerent Emeritus says
” Ohhh, but it is hard. I really want to dream of her tonight haha.”
Are you sure about that?
“You used to captivate me by your resonating light
Now, I’m bound by the life you left behind
Your face it haunts my once pleasant dreams
Your voice it chased away all the sanity in me”
“My Immortal” – Evanescence (2003)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu7QvOQKcKk
rufio says
Lol, good song! I don’t think that will be a problem for me as we don’t have much time left together and she will fade from my thoughts.
This is only the second time this has happened to me and I remember that last being much worse. I see my first LO now and I wonder how I could have ever been so sick over it. That one I actually asked out when we were both single.
This second LO, ~12 years apart I would never disclose to. I enjoy her friendship and kindness entirely to much. Yesterday was such a good day as we said goodbye for the holidays. She looked forward to me coming by her side of the building at the end of the day and said she “almost texted me” when away from her desk for a moment so she didn’t miss me. Simultaneously invigorating and devastating. Our chat lasted quite awhile and I was even 15 minutes over for leaving. I think that is what triggered my thoughts of dreaming.
I do love writing about this situation as well. It has almost become like an accountability thing. I feel like I am improving through acceptance and self talk. 12 day break now and two months to go before she is gone. I’ve also got back on some dating apps to see if I can further distract myself. Thank you all for your comments and thoughts.
Lovisa says
Rufio,
It startled me to read that you are on some dating apps. I thought you were married. Am I mistaken?
rufio says
No, I am single.
Lovisa says
Oh, thanks for clarifying.
Speedwagon says
Check-in time. I ended up texting my LO on Monday and it went bad. What was such good texting vibes last week from her turned into apparent disinterest this week. Short sentence fragment responses, long periods responding. She reverted back to her normal texting self and I graciously bailed from the conversation first. She has not initiated a text since.
Oh, well. It was fun while it lasted. Feeling fairly rejected now, but I knew this was a good possibility. I never trusted her pursuit of me would last and it is obvious how much power and control she has. Our relationship goes how she wants it to go.
I feel fairly foolish for indulging in an EA fantasy that I thought I could somewhat control. Warnings well taken now.
So now I have renewed focus on LC with her and living purposefully with my SO.
Lovisa says
Thanks for the update, Speedwagon. You seem to be handling it well. I like your attitude!
Limerent Emeritus says
You may have decided to end the LE.
She’ll decide when it’s really over.
Lovisa says
Why is it up to her? I’m just curious.
Limerent Emeritus says
Short answer:
Speedy wanted to be on her radar and he got on it.
He can’t say it’s over because sans disclosure, there’s nothing going on and he can’t get away from her.
Since he initiated out of work texts, he lost any professional leverage he had to drive the issue unless she makes a big mistake.
Lovisa says
Thanks for the explanation, Limerent Emeritus.
Let me see if I understand.
Speedy is stuck in a limerent state because he can’t distance himself from LO in a socially acceptable way. He can’t close the door and initiate no contact because, from the perspective of his LO, there is no reason to go NC. It would confuse her. And since they have contact outside of professional boundaries, he has opened the door to that, too. She can step into his world anytime and he has to be receptive, but it will heighten his limerent misery. His LO probably has no idea that she triggers Speedy’s emotions to extreme highs and lows.
Did I get it?
I think if Speedy is serious about ending the LE, he might need to become boring to LO. He can treat social contact and business contact differently.
1. Don’t initiate contact for social reasons. (If you break this rule, it will confuse her.)
2. Delay response when she initiates contact for social reasons.
She will get the hint eventually. And it will probably hurt her, just be prepared for that and know that she’ll get over it. She will wonder what she did wrong.
I’m curious, Speedy, would you like it if she suddenly quit being friendly towards you? Like if she was suddenly all business, would that be helpful for your LE?
Also, there are many ways to replace the dopamine high that you get from LO. I use runner’s high and ice baths. Cryotherapy gives me a great high, too. Just a suggestion.
Limerent Emeritus says
Louisa,
You’re on the right track.
The big reason Speedy can’t go NC is because he’s her boss. Like SOs and LOs, other subordinates, peers, and bosses aren’t stupid or clueless either.
If he starts treating her differently in either direction, people will notice. He’s talking to us. Who is she talking to?
Mentorship can provide great cover for limerent bosses but, again, it has to be managed. If his company doesn’t have a “formal” mentoring program, he can start one. But, he gets his bosses approval first. It also makes him look good.
But, the program needs to be open to everyone. Otherwise, it could be obvious. Eventually, if he’s good enough at pulling it off, he can make her a protégé. He can get a ton of limerent mileage off that. LO #4 used one of my blogs as a chapter in her book. She said that I got her to see things in a new way. In that respect, she would be the closest I would ever get to having a protégé. I told her that.
He could subtly suggest that her career would advance further and faster elsewhere. It’s always better when LOs leave on their own. But, that comes with its own risks
Under no circumstances does he want to be the one she turns to in a crisis.
Speedwagon says
It’s up to her as long as I indulge my LE fantasies with her when she reaches out to me. For last few weeks she did and I didn’t hold back. But now that she seems to have withdrawn, my strategy is to limit my interactions with her to short in office professional ones and not to engage her on a personal level. No initiating texting and I always have the opportunity to ignore her texts to me. That would not bother me one bit, I don’t owe her anything other than employment.
My issue is not to play along with her game of being hot/cold towards me. If I really want to get past my LE I need to stick to my LC plan no matter her level of pursuit of me. It’s easy when she is withdrawn, not so much when she pursues me.
Lovisa says
Thank you so much, Limerent Emeritus! It helps to hear a male perspective.
You have some conflicting tips for Speedwagon. I think a mentorship would dig him deeper into limerence. I think he should avoid that unless he wants to experience the low that will accompany the high (which no doubt the high will be amazing).
I think Speedwagon will recover faster if he becomes boring to his LO. I also think he might consider using transference to a more appropriate LO.
I like your warning and it is worth emphasizing that he needs to avoid her if she becomes a damsel in distress. The hero instinct is so triggering for men. Good point!
I guess we are losing our ability to connect soon. Thank you so much for your contributions to LwL. I’ve learned a lot from you for which I am very grateful.
Speedwagon says
“He’s talking to us. Who is she talking to”
I think she is talking someone. She has an older sister she is close to. Her abrupt change in interaction with me makes me feel like someone has coached her? Doesn’t matter though, my actions should not hinge on hers if I want my LE to end.
Lovisa says
Speedwagon, it sounds like you have a solid plan. We all know it’s easier said than done, but I think you can pull this off.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I am learning a lot from you and the other LwL community members.
Best of luck!
Lovisa says
Speedwagon,
“ Her abrupt change in interaction with me makes me feel like someone has coached her?”
I respectfully disagree. I avoided addressing this earlier because I didn’t want to give you hope. I suspect that the change in her behavior has more to do with the disruption in her schedule due to the holidays. I suspect January will be different. She’s probably just preoccupied with other things right now.
“Doesn’t matter though, my actions should not hinge on hers if I want my LE to end.”
Yes! Yes! Yes! You are soooooooo right!
Please remember that your LE is not her fault. She has no idea how she effects you. Distance yourself, but be polite about it.
Limerent Emeritus says
Lovisa,
If Speedy wants the LE to end, he doesn’t become her mentor, he gets someone else to be her mentor. In my agency, you were never assigned a mentor in your chain of command. It eliminates any perception of favoritism and they learn something different to broaden your skills.
Speedy, you are correct that it doesn’t matter who she is talking to end the LE. Who she’s talking to may make a lot of difference in how it ends.
Speedwagon says
Isn’t that the truth! I am trying to just roll with it all since she is so hot/cold but it’s damn hard. I live most days in kind of a numb LE state just trying to maintain some level of stability in my emotions.
We will see what the rest of this week brings and whether she reaches out at all. Last time I went LC is when she started pursuing me more.
Vikke says
I have had this on and off since it all started. First she gave me her IG account, the next day she clearly avoided me and didn’t want to say hello. Later that evening she replied to one of my IG stories, the next day she avoided me again, then she replied rather lengthy texts to my texts, giving information I hadn’t asked for even, until after some days I replied a rather short answer, guess she got tired or whatever, a few days later she stopped paying attention to me (I suppose she muted my stories/posts)…
Somewhen I got tired too and muted her too, and since then whenever I have ignored her for a couple of days, there she is, she suddenly remembers I exist and views my stories. My hopes go up, start viewing her stories again…Then goes silent again…
So now for Xmas I did a stupid thing. She had a story remembering her late pet and I reacted to her story with a sad face, like I would do for anybody, really. It was so quick, I just did it, and I immediately knew it was a mistake, because it would send me spiraling and anxious waiting for a reaction from her, which I KNOW will never come. I was down for some days but now I am like well, there is some minimum decency I expect from people I want to have around… I didn’t react to her story to get an answer, not intentionally at least, it was a quick empathic reaction because I know what it is to lose and miss a pet.
But maybe that was the kick in the a** I needed. I for now feel like it is over, I don’t want such a person around me and starting to move on. Also busy going the ups and downs of 2022, planning my 2023 goals, focusing more on my SO, and writing thank you notes to people that helped me this horrible year.
All the best to you
Lost in Space says
I know this is an older post, but I wanted to leave a comment here after reading something Speedwagon wrote in another section about the role of rescue fantasy in his LE. That got me reflected on the role that this has played in my own current LE, and I’d be eager to hear what others here think about this
I’m the type of guy who is very susceptible to the rescue fantasy – it’s just in my DNA. This LE, however, did not start out that way. At the start, it was all about chemistry and mutual attraction with someone who seemed to have her stuff together pretty well and didn’t seem to need rescuing from much at all. In fact, early on in our relationship (pre-disclosure) she was dealing with a bad situation at work and I offered to try to help her out with it – she declined my offer and said she didn’t want to make me get involved, which actually felt great because it was a moment of “oh wow, she really does just like me for me, not for what I could do for her”.
But then as we got to know each other better and better, she began to trust me enough to tell me a lot of things about her life that she doesn’t really ever talk about. I don’t feel like going into details here, because it’s not my story to share, but basically she’s been treated poorly by almost everyone in her life from childhood on, including constant emotional and physical abuse from both of her parents and then years of controlling and emotionally abusive behavior from her now ex-husband (with whom she is still living and still sort of in a relationship).
And for me, it was heartbreaking to learn all of this about someone who I thought the world of, and who is just a sweet, loving and good person despite everything. Shortly after we’d disclosed our feelings to each other, she told me something like “one thing that made me fall for you is that you’re just so different than every other guy I’ve ever known. You actually like talking with me. You actually care about my life and about the thoughts in my head and how my day is going”. And I believe her that in nearly 40 years of life she’d honestly never experienced that from anyone before, and it just broke my heart for her.
And so the more I learned about her life, the stronger my rescue fantasy got, and I know that she was indulging in fantasies about me being her rescuer as well. I just kept thinking about how good I could treat her and how happy I could make her if we were together, and how good that would make me feel. But of course, I already have a wife and my lifelong purpose is to treat her good and make her happy, and there’s just no possible way, in reality, that I could be the guy for both of them.
And now LO and I have agreed that we’re going to stay in reality and we’ve accepted that we will never actually have a future together, but we’re still caught up in an emotional affair, and one thing that makes it so hard for me to pull back from it is this overwhelming feeling of wanting to make life better for her. And I recognize that I can’t do much – I’m not going to marry here, I’m not going to be the guy who treats her the way she deserves to be treated every day of her life.
But I can do little things to make her feel loved and cared for every day – talking on the phone, sending her texts that I know will make her smile and let her know that I’m thinking about her. And when I know that she’s not getting that anywhere else, and that she’s not likely to start getting it anywhere else anytime soon, it just becomes really easy for me to tell myself that the EA is a good and noble thing for me to continue because it’s not hurting my SO (provided that she never finds out) and that I can be an ongoing source of love and kindness for LO. And the thought of cutting off contact with her feels doubly painful – painful because I miss her so bad when we’re out of contact, and painful because I feel like I’d be abandoning her when I can still be an important person in her life who can make her feel loved.
Adam says
I remember this is one of the first posts of Dr L’s I read on this site before I ever decided to post a comment.
The basis of what attracted me to LO was 101% rescue fantasy. She had been recently divorced and her ex was still trying to be in her life despite her not wanting him to be. She had been thrown a curve ball at work (cleaning up the mess of a former worker) which is how I came to work with her. She had a lot of stress and anxiety between home and work, and saw that I could help. I saw that she had not had a good amount of men in her life and I was going to change that.
The bad thing I have learned about myself when it comes to this rescue complex is that it is a need of MINE. I’d like to pretend its an altruistic motive, and as aside it is, but it’s also a need I wanted filled because I get a high from it. LO is a very independent and capable woman. That can be seen from just the trails she went through in the two years I knew her much less the rest of her life. She didn’t ask for my help with some things but she also didn’t turn me down when I offered to help her with things both personal and secular.
This comes from a need to feel validated. I measure my worth as a man to what I can do for a woman. LO sparked that some how. If I can help her with problems she has than she will see me as a worthy man. By extension, I will than prove to her that there are men better than her ex, even if I am not available I can at least show her how a man should treat her.
Problem with that is, is my motive pure? Am I just feeding my own ego? What am I doing this for? After all this is a grown woman and mother of two. I think she’s pretty capable of what she faces herself. And it is through the words and wisdom of a lot of people here that I have come to realize, while in the end, I might have helped LO with something she might not have been able to handle herself, my motive was selfish. And it has made me look at how I look at a woman in peril differently. Including my own wife.
And like any other addiction if it gets feed it will compound. And it did for me with LO. She didn’t ask for my help but she also didn’t turn me down when I offered to help her with something she was struggling with. To the point that I had fellow co-workers accuse (to my face not hers) LO of abusing my help. Of course I would angerily deny it and argue otherwise to defend her. Now she might have been. Maybe she did know somewhat of the hold she had on me. Maybe she was just receptive to my help. Either way I got a need fed.
Maybe I was living vicariously though LO because helping my wife had become routine. Or even burdensome. And this wonderful lady who was in a bad place at the time I met her fired up this rescue complex in a new and wonderful way. I mean what man wouldn’t like the smile, sparkling eyes, and “thank you Adam” in that sweet and wonderful voice.
A drug. An addiction. Complete with immediate jealousy at the thought of her getting help from another man, when she met her gentleman friend. (And if she had any inkling of my feelings probably why she hid him from me for so long.) I have since come to my senses and realized that this man is good for her and her daughters and that he genuinely cares for them. But initially to feel unneeded, unwanted and him taking that high away from me; I got jealous. I tried to atone for that with a nice couple Christmas gift last year in hopes that if LO did ever pick up on my initial negative thoughts about her gentleman friend that she would forgive an old man his jealousy. I only want what is best for LO and I think this young man is it. For both her and her daughters. So I go back to feeling useless.
Limerent Emeritus says
Adam,
When (if) we have the LwL meetup, the “Rescuers” will have their own breakout session. The last time the subject surfaced DrL said something along the lines of getting so many limerents in one place might cause the universe to implode.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/when-los-return-part-two/#comment-2074
“Limerent Emeritus – telling jokes to crying women since 1961!”
From what you’ve been posting, it’s going to take time, effort, and probably a good professional to sort through things. I would recommend a therapist specializing in trauma.
Your heart seems to be in the right place. Where the heart goes the head follows.
Adam says
I am trying my best to do the right thing. I do not want LO hurt or damaged by her interactions with me. So if anything I am motivated to do right by her more than anything else. If I come out of this damaged than that’s on me, because LO never did anything to put me in this state. At least intentionally anyway. That’s why I leave any contact up to her. She is starting a new family and doesn’t need me disrupting it. Some days I am better at moving forward than some days though.
Limerent Emeritus says
Adam,
Years ago my father told me that I should never play a game that I couldn’t afford to win.
I didn’t understand it at the time but after my last LE I do.
Emily says
Wow, @Adam. This is so lyrical and insightful. About how your LO kindles your need to be needed, goes right to the deep need for you to feel worthy and validated. I think that is in so many of our cases.
Speedwagon says
I totally understand your thought process on this, LIS. Mine is much of the same though your story and mine have some key differences, the main one being that your LO desires your rescue. She has mutual romantic attraction. Mine does not, though I think she enjoys my attention because there are some affection gaps with her SO.
I decided that at the office in a professional sense and maybe a light personal relational sense that it is good and OK for me to encourage and appreciate my LO. Her SO is a nice guy, he is not abusive in any way, but he also seems a bit of a wet noodle and does not support LO like I think she deserves to be supported. So I play that role here at work. I make sure she is seen, heard, appreciated and encouraged. And she does come to me time to time when it comes to some life questions, specifically about raising kids. Her kids are her life.
But, my LO is not looking for romantic emotional needs or even deep friendship from me. Before I disclosed she did not shy away from deeper friendship if I initiated but she did little initiation herself. She is not compelled to seek that from me. Since disclosure we have stopped texting or interacting really at all off work hours in respect of her SO. I agree that respect for SO (something I seemed to blow off easily) needs to enter into the equation about level of emotional connection and initiation. As my therapist put it, you are stealing away emotional intimacy that is reserved for your spouse.
The other thing you might consider is how much you are keeping LO clinging to you when she should be looking for someone available who would be good for her. Have you asked yourself if she can find that person if she is emotionally engaged with you day in and day out? There has got to be part of her that keeps hope alive in having a full relationship with you.
Lovisa says
“… you are keeping LO clinging to you when she should be looking for someone available who would be good for her.”
Yes! Brilliantly said, Speedwagon. It’s an unfortunate truth. It will be painful when Lost in Space parts ways with his LO, but it will open up other possibilities for her, maybe. I mean she still has the ex husband living with her. That will be a barrier to all future relationships.
Vee says
I didnt realise that i was caught up in a rescue fantasy until reading the posts. I definitely get a huge thrill from helping LO.
Last week, LO asked me for some help at work on something she couldnt figure out. It drove me crazy trying to help but i couldnt quite work it out either and felt like i let her down. In reality, she didnt feel let down but i felt terrible.
Likewise – the thank you for helping and “i really appreciate your help” feels so much more meaningful coming from her. Anyone else and i wouldnt read the words twice.
My limerence for LO for sure must have had something to do with her terrible last relationship and my feeling that i could also rescue her. Its so crazy. Like others have said, i truly want to help (she is single, no kids) i know that i cannot be the guy in her life because im the guy to my SO.
It doesnt help that i care so much about her wellbeing. Im not sure if she realises how much power she has over me (she is also too nice to abuse it). This week i heard about her socialising with other work colleagues and the jealousy hit me so badly – why was it not me? (Even though i would have declined and not been interested in socialising after work given my triggers).
Over the next couple of weeks i am expecting an overdose of face to face interaction that is out of routine. Like speedwagon pointed out – this creates seriois issues as i will see LO in a new light. Im also expecting lots of one on one time all due to work. Not ideal at all and exactly what i dont need while i want to get LO out of my thoughts.
Hopefully no work rescuing will be required – i will be all to willing to assist and help just for the “thank you I appreciate it that follows”.
@Lovisa any tips for me?
@Adam – dont feel useless. She will remember the part you played in her life and be content that she is happy now – that is what you wanted for her.
@Speedwagon – again your posts are very close to my situation (excluding the disclosure). Like your LO, mine does not need rescuing and can handle herself as an independent woman that has her life under control. She doesnt need my rescuing…i need it way more.
Lovisa says
That is a tough situation, Vee. It sounds like contact is going to increase whether you like it or not. Here are my thoughts.
You could appropriately love LO. What I mean is that you can put her best interest ahead of your own. You will need to endure a lot of pain from your own unmet wants, but you will get fulfillment from doing the right thing.
You could be a gray rock to her so that you aren’t alluring at all. That means be boring. It could help you minimize contact with her. I kind of feel bad for LO if you take this approach, but I think this is the least painful approach for you.
I would like for you to check in with your marriage. Some limerents become more delightful at home and some go the other way. How is your SO? Can you do something to make her life better?
Good luck! You are not alone. We are here for you.
Vee says
Hi Lovisa,
Thanks for the comments – it is great not to be alone. I like the idea of being there for her and not expecting reciprocation – it is fulfilling. There will definitely be pain though. Being dull – well, maybe i do that naturally 😉 – i may find this difficult as instinct makes me be myself (i generally say what i think and feel which makes the non disclosure even more tricky).
The marriage has been tough because of my mood (driven by feelings for LO). I have been feeling down a lot with SO who has been nothing but supportive. She has agreed i need therapy and im searching for the right therapist at the moment (although SO thinks its just depression).
Will keep you updated
Lovisa says
Please do keep us updated, Vee. I would like to address the depression and the at-home behavior some more if you are comfortable sharing. I wonder which came first, the LE or the depression? I was in a depression that included suicidal ideation when my LE2 hit. My LO2 woke me up and I became the delightful wife that my SO missed so much. It’s the reason he tolerates my friendships with men. My SO is grateful to have his wife back.
I would love to see things improve for you. Is there something I can do to help?
Vee says
Lovisa – firstly thanks – your input is always appreciated. Of course i am happy to share more – the LE definitely came first. Once i realised what was happening (all too late) i was in full blown Limerence. I think the thought of wanting to get to know LO better but that it would never go anywhere felt (and still does feel) very depressing. Its like the “rescue mission” is mission impossible and cannot be completed (and in reality i dont even want to complete it but my brain keeps disagreeing). In fact she doesnt need or even want to be rescued and is perfectly happy without me in her life. She does appreciate my role as mentor and boss massively but that is where it ends. I still find it crazy that i had worked with LO for so long with not even a glimmer and then it was this unbearable limerence. Why?
My SO has had a tough time with me since the limerence appeared. I have been more down and depressed which is very abnormal. We had and have a great relationship and I love her and my kids so much – i want this to end for their sake but im stuck in a difficult position.
As mentioned – my time with LO has been increasing. LO is sharing more about her life with me (nothing emotional, just normal conversational stuff that you wouls talk to anyone about). I feel guilty that i enjoy getting to know her better. Its exciting learning new things about someone. Being the boring gray rock that doesnt engage is hard.
The crash after the workweek is hard – i struggle through the weekends and keep thinking of the next time LO and I will meet – i hate that i struggle to focus on SO and my pretty perfect life at home (which i used to enjoy before the LE).
How can you help? Just having you listen and comment makes a huge difference. I feel writing how i feel does reduce some of my worries (especially that at least someone in the world knows this deep secret).
Speedwagon says
Vee, I was you 8 months ago and I am going to keep reminding you, it will get better. I am in a very stable place right now. LO and I work closely together most days and I still am crazy attracted to her BUT the depressive emotions are subsiding. I don’t feel down about her nearly as much and I am enjoying more of the affection and attention I provide her and the little bit she provides me. Just today I thought I might back off a little as I had to interact with her quite a bit yesterday and to my surprise she was the initiator with me today and was very chatty and warm with me all day. Instead of this kind of interaction sending me into a tailspin, I actually have cheery thoughts of her right now. This would never have been 6-8 months ago. I would have had a crash, probably cried at some point, and then have gone to bed early.
Have you found that your LE has pulled you closer to SO or have you become more withdrawn from her? My LE made me pull closer to mine. I became more affectionate and more caring. I’m hoping the same can happen for you. Except for the depressive emotions, LE has actually been positively transformative for me. I would encourage you to use all that emotion and energy that can’t go into LO to go into SO.
The days with LO will get better as they become routine. I guarantee it. The reward of interaction becomes less and less. I would give myself enough interaction to help regulate my mood as I needed some interaction with LO, but not too much that I would crash later. It’s a delicate balance.
Good luck…keep checking in.
Lovisa says
Vee, it sounds like you can figure this out cognitively, but your limerent brain overrides your thinking brain. That is completely normal for us limerents. We live (at least I do) with a feeling of, “I know better. Why can’t I do better?”
Take me for example. I want to daydream about my LO right now. He has a 100-mile race coming up soon and I want to imagine myself there as a volunteer at an aid station so I can greet him, encourage him and offer support. But I know that reverie leads to intrusive thoughts so I am resisting that daydream by visiting LwL. I don’t know how that relates to your situation. I just made this about me, lol. Silly selfish limerent Lovisa. I’m sorry, let’s get back to you.
Why did the glimmer/limerence suddenly happen? I would guess that she gave a signal of attraction. It doesn’t have to be romantic attraction for your brain to interpret it as sexual interest. We recently learned that women give signals of attraction when they want to draw others closer. To the woman, it’s friendship. “I like Vee. He is nice. I feel safe chatting about my personal life. Wow, he is such a great listener. I am enjoying his company. I want to reciprocate his attentive kindness so I will listen to him, too.” She is thinking friendship. Your brain is thinking, “A woman held eye contact with me. She wants sex! Wow, she wants sex!” And then you’re stuck. That’s my guess anyway. Okay that’s probably an exaggeration.
I’m sorry to hear that the limerence happened during an otherwise pleasant stage in life. My first LE was like that. I bet you feel like you fell into something strange and wonder how it happened. It is confusing. I am sad that it is causing stress at home. Neither you or your SO asked for this. I want to encourage you to replace LO daydreams with something else if you can.
Something that I use effectively with LO3 is, I remind myself that the last contact was pleasant which means we are on good terms and the next contact will be pleasant. I have to reassure myself sometimes. Reassuring yourself might get you through the weekend.
I read Speedwagon’s response after I wrote mine. His is better. He understands your experience better than I do because he really was in the same position a few months ago. He has some good advice for you. My thoughts are…well, I don’t know what has gotten into me, but I am giggly. Listen to Speedy, Vee. I promise I haven’t been drinking. I don’t know why I am so giggly.
Vee says
Thanks Speedwagon – i wish i would feel cheeey about my LO interactions instead of crashing heavily. I do believe like you say it will get better.
I had lots of LO interactions over the last week and maybe this is helping a bit. I am enjoying them but trying to keep telling myself to be there unconditionally for her (even if there is no reciprocation) as it means i am being a good mentor. I constantly remind myself how she likely has no interest, but at some level i keep thinking or hoping it would be a bit more. My rational brain keeps saying who cares and focus energy elsewhere.
I will try to refocus my energy on SO – i have not done that and we have definitely drifted more apart than close together.
Lovisa – you are funny. Your daydream comment is true – i need to move my thoughts away from LO and not dream of grander things that rational me does not want. You asked how the limerence began – i just started realising what a great person she is and how much we have in common. I dont think i interpreted her niceness as “I want sex” – its more like i interpreted it as “I would love to get to know her better and just talk to her for hours”. I dont know if that makes sense but the thrill and excitement of learning more about this person who is a joy to be around made me happy (and then very sad when she wasnt around).
I kid you not, LO just walked into my office as i was typing this to say hi and to update me on her work. My goodness, it really sends my brain into overdrive.
Lovisa – i like the thought of “my last interaction was good, we are in a good place”. I will try thinking about that during the weekends (in addition to giving SO more attention).
Thanks everyone for sharing your perspectives, it really makes a big difference to me and i really appreciate the virtual support and understanding for my situation.
Lovisa says
Vee, you are so lucky that you saw LO in person. I haven’t seen LO3 since June. My SO thinks it’s probably wise for me and LO3 not to be alone because, even though we are committed to our marriages, the temptation could overtake us. My SO is wise, but I know I wouldn’t cross physical boundaries with LO3. There’s just no way I will ever be the type of woman who breaks up two families. Never. I don’t think LO3 would either. I don’t know why I am rambling on.
Here is something interesting. Last night I was texting LO3 about my knee injury. My SO knew that I was texting a man with whom I have mutual limerence. I think it made him a little uneasy, but he just gave me privacy. My respect and admiration for my SO grows exponentially when he displays that kind of trust in me. Wow! I don’t think limerence is going to be part of my future. I think my SO is going to successfully steal my attention and limerent fantasies might not even work. Amazing!
Thanks for saying that I’m funny.
Speedwagon says
I still get caught off guard a bit by my limerence. Yesterday I did something that I thought nothing of at the time but later came back to bite me. I gave LO the option to work from home today and she said she would think about it and get back to me and I realized later that I wanted her to pick coming into the office. Of course she texted later she would work from home. I felt a limerent let down hit me. What I realize, and need to be diligent about, is not leaving decisions “to choose me” in LOs hands. I should have just told her to either come in or work from home. I need to maintain control of our interactions and let any initiation or choosing of me be unsolicited surprises.
Limerence is still such a trial and error process in managing it. And tomorrow is the 1 year mark of the start of the glimmer with her. What a year!
Speedwagon says
Yeah, I think there is something in successful professional men that can get caught up in “rescuing” the subordinate female. Just today, LO and I were chatting a bit about mundane things and it occured to me that her and I have so many “me too” moments (I don’t mean that in the me too sexual harassment context). There are a lot of things I like that she likes or we have shared perspectives. And, we already share the same career field so I gel with her and am a mentor to her in a major part of her life. But what is interesting is a lot of times after she will say me too, she will follow it up with “but my husband” and proceed to tell me how SO is different. Now this isn’t anything ground breaking or earth shattering, many couples have differences and have fulfilling relationships, but LO and I do seem to connect well in areas she does not with SO and this can feed the rescue fantasy big time. It is as if compatibility with me is what she really has been seeking her whole life and did not know it when she married SO.
In truth, I do think I fill some voids emotionally for her but none of them are romantic voids and none of them run that deep.
Vee says
Thanks Speedwagon – I know how you feel. It sucks when you know you could be a perfect partner but LO will never experience it.
It also sucks knowing that the voids you are filling are not emotional or romantic – but take comfort that she needs and appreciates you.
Emily says
When I am bring up my spouse in a conversation like that, it is usually to remind the other person (and myself) that I have a husband!
Emily says
I have read all over the internet, women being advised that many men have a “Hero Instinct”, and triggering that will lead men to fall for the women who make them feel like a hero/rescuer. Sounds like what is going on here.
Adam says
I can’t speak for the rest of the men here, but I can say why to a degree I was receptive to LO’s need for help vs my wife of 23 years that is at home needing the same energy I was willingly spending on LO.
In 23 years you get “settled” in with a person. I do the things that I need to do for my wife, that she can’t do herself, out of habit. Some things she will need to ask me for but for the most part I know the routine. It’s not that she is ungrateful she is just use to me doing what I do for her without asking. Which means I don’t always get a “thank you” or similar response for my day to day help.
Now with LO because it was either voluntary without her asking, or her asking me to help her with something had a reward in my brain due to the limerence. But she would also almost always verbally thank me in some way for doing something for her. Something I didn’t get at home as much.
“Thank you Adam you are so sweet.”
vs
“You forgot the milk.”
Lesson to learn? I think one of the biggest wedges between a couple is being taken for granted. And that gives the perfect opportunity for another man/woman to unintentionally or intentionally divide a marriage. I felt accepted, appreciated and validated by LO actually noticing my efforts.
Not that was an excuse for me to let anything with LO get out of hand but it could have easily been the reason if LO was receptive to something like that. Thankfully she wasn’t.
Limerent Emeritus says
My criteria in a woman is Attractive, Intelligent, Charming, Self-sufficient, and have a Sense of Humor.
Everything else negotiable.
Lost in Space says
Adam, your last comment resonated with me 100%. I think a lot of my limerence has been driven by expressions of gratitude from LO, contrasted with being taken for granted by SO. I’d come home from a long day at work, then make dinner while SO watches tv on the couch, and half the time not even get a “thank you”. Meanwhile LO is always telling me “I appreciate you so much”, “thank you for always being there for me”, and that one you mentioned “you’re so sweet”. Those expressions of gratitude become addictive and make me want to do more and more for LO just to experience her gratitude.
A couple times (including just last week) I’ve had to pull myself back from the brink of buying really inappropriately expensive gifts for LO – I’d think of something that I just knew would make her really happy, and then spend hours daydreaming about her looking at me with love and asking me why I’m so good to her, and me telling her it’s because I just love her and want to make her happy. Fortunately I’ve snapped myself back to reality in time to avoid buying a $500 gift for someone who would probably actually feel really uncomfortable if I gave her something that extravagant – LO takes a lot of pride in being independent and taking care of herself, plus she’s really trying to pull us from EA territory back to friendship territory. I’ve kept myself in check by forcing myself to change the fantasy to her rejecting the gift and thinking how much that would hurt, and also reminding myself that if I gave her an extravagant gift, it would actually be a selfish act to try to make myself happy, not a selfless act to make her happy.
Meanwhile, SO and I are doing couples counseling and one thing we’re actively working on is expressing gratitude to each other. She’s thanking me for making dinner, and I’m thanking her for taking great care of the kids all day and cleaning the kitchen and getting a couple of my favorite drinks at the store (all of which I probably overlooked last month). We still take each other for granted sometimes and feel unappreciated sometimes, but we’re working on it and it’s helping to strengthen our bond
Lovisa says
I love that you and SO are working on appreciating each other. Nice work, Lost in Space!
Don’t buy LO an expensive gift. It will make her uncomfortable or confuse her. You were right not to do it.
Lost in Space says
Yeah, it would be a really stupid thing to do. In the most recent case, it was pure rescue fantasy. She’d been asking about my weekend plans, and I told her that on Saturday I’d be watching the kids so that my SO could have a “mommy day” and spend a few hours out on her own doing things she enjoyed. LO told me that she’d really never had a day like that because her SO either would flat out refuse to watch the kids, or he would make her feel so guilty about going out on her own that she’d just decide to stay home to keep him happy.
So I got this brilliant idea that I’d buy her a gift certificate for this super nice all day spa retreat package so she could have her well deserved “me day”. And to avoid making her SO suspicious, I had this plot to make it look like she’d won the gift certificate as the grand prize in a drawing from our company’s wellness department. I was forging documents and everything to make it look good… did I ever mention that I’m a recovering addict who still has an addict’s scheming brain?
Anyway, I came to my senses, thanks largely to this discussion here, and scuttled the plan in time. It would have been so freaking stupid! It would have made her super uncomfortable, would have totally altered the dynamic between me and her, and would have inserted myself into her weird relationship with her SO in a totally inappropriate way. Just so I could chase the dopamine hit of feeling her gratitude and being her hero.
I am so grateful for this blog. It is truly helping to protect me from all of my worst instincts.
Lovisa says
You have a lot of energy and a clever mind, Lost in Space. I’m glad that you try to use your talents for the greater good. Your plan makes sense to me and it is something I can see myself considering if I were in your shoes. Before reading your comment, I had the thought, “I guess if he wanted to give her something, he could make it look like she won it.” Funny that you and I were thinking the same thing.
I agree that LwL helps us stay grounded. Maybe not always grounded, but more than if we tried to navigate limerence alone.
Lost in Space says
Lovisa – I am energetic and clever enough to get myself into a lot of trouble. I would guess that divorce courts, drug rehabs and federal prisons are filled with energetic and clever people…
I think that the worst thing about my scheme was that it would have forced LO to either reject the gift, or to go home and tell an overt lie to her (kind of, sort of) SO. True, she’s already been committing lies of omission by deleting our texts at the end of each day and not telling him that she’s on the phone with another guy all the way home. But this would have raised the level of lying to another level and I know she’s already somewhat uncomfortable with the current situation
For me, I know I have the kind of mind that would have actually really thrived, in a messed up sort of way, on the scheming and creativity required to maintain a full blown PA. That would have been really exciting and in a way enjoyable, although I know that the stress and the guilt would have also been unbearable. I’m very glad that I’m not in that situation, because it would have been a situation with absolutely no way out except for hurting a lot of people badly.
I had my first appointment with my new psychologist today. He and I are going to work on re-connecting me with my sense of meaning and purpose in life that I seem to have lost some time ago. I think that’s going to be really important work so I can put my creativity and energy toward much more noble and fulfilling projects rather than using them for selfish and destructive purposes.
Lovisa says
Lost in Space, your self-awareness and eagerness to improve are awesome!
I think you are right about the prison population. My son fits the clever and energetic categories. Playing with my emotions was his favorite past-time until he was taken away in handcuffs at age 14. He misses his comfortable lifestyle when he lived with us. He can’t live with us anymore because his games are too destructive. I can’t let him hurt his sisters. I wonder if he will ever figure out that each time he gets caught playing one of his games, he loses more freedom. He is facing new charges. He threatened his therapist and his therapist is pressing charges. My son wanted to talk to me about it on the phone today. I get so drained talking to him, but I feel obligated because I am his mom. We met him when he was our 6-year-old foster son. We adopted him. Even though he is difficult, I love him just as much as I love his sisters. It blows my mind that I can’t stop loving him after what he has put us through. I am so glad that you care about how your actions effect other people. It’s something my son lacks for now. He is probably heading towards prison.
I love that you are working towards healthy goals with your therapist! That is so cool. I look forward to hearing about it.
Adam says
I find in general a lot of the things that have been forgotten and unspoken in our marriage are the things that I appreciated from LO. Which like any addiction is easier to seek out from LO than it is to address the problem behind the addiction itself.
In regards to your gift story … after LO and I (back in mid 2021) had finally fixed all the issues of the lack of a former co-worker doing their job had gotten done I wanted to buy her an “appreciation gift”. I know the corporate side of the company we work for had not done a damn thing to thank her for all she had done to fix things. But on thinking of it, I felt it might look suspect for a older married man to be buying a young single lady a gift. So I didn’t. When Christmas came around that year I asked a few co-workers what they thought about me buying her a gift for Christmas and they all seemed to think it was okay. I even checked in with another female co-worker that was close to LO to make sure LO’s gentleman friend would not be offended by it. I guess my point is, it can be all about timing and appearances when you want to do something nice for a co-worker that is the opposite gender without it seeming suspect.
That is good news! I am trying myself to be more appreciative of my wife as a way of seeking reciprocation. I haven’t said straight out that I feel unappreciated or taken for granted yet. But it might need to be addressed. As of now I am going for the more subtle approach to see where that takes us first.
As much as LO’s kind words were like a drug high I needed to fix the actual problem than trying to a get fix from her. Something that didn’t help me or was fair to her.
Lovisa says
Adam, I told my SO that I couldn’t see my contribution to the family. I told him I was struggling with my self-worth. He was surprised because he says it is clear to him that I bring an abundance of value to our family. After that discussion, he made an effort to point out the things I do that he appreciates. I suspect your wife would do the same.
Lost in Space says
What a great way to ask him to show his appreciation by framing it as your need rather than his deficiency. Now he’s probably feeling happy to work on showing appreciation because he gets to do something to make you feel better (putting him in the position of your rescuer), not because you made him feel bad about himself for not doing it before and made him do it out of obligation/guilt. Brilliant!
Lovisa says
Thanks, Lost in Space!
Limerent Emeritus says
LIS,
Well done on the gift!
tl/dr
I sent LO #4 a few things over the years.
It was interesting. We were dancing but things were on a very superficial level. I was working for her as a moderator on her website. She was living with her BF at the time but the cracks had started to appear.
I asked if it would be ok if I sent her something as a token of my appreciation for things.
I like Candorville comics. Darrin Bell ran a promotion that for an extra fee, he’d put a sketch on the inside cover of one of his books. LO #4 is a mental health professional. I asked him to make the sketch of LO #4 in Dr. Noodle’s sketch pad. https://candorville.com/comics/2011-12-04-kelly.jpg [If you go to the Candorville site, search for “Kelly.” It’s an inspired story line. But, that’s a whole thread in itself.]
She had me send it via her mother in another state. I don’t know if she didn’t want me to know where she live or she didn’t want her BF asking questions of who I was if he picked up the mail.
He also had a coffee cup with the caption, “Nobody likes a Passive-Aggressive Person.” I sent her that one year for her birthday. When she told me she was feeling really down, I sent her a card.
Those went via her mother, too.
After her breakup and she moved out, LO #4 gave me her address and I sent her a small housewarming gift. When I was panicking and tried to disengage the first time, I deleted her address. When she came back a few months later, I asked her for it. Not only didn’t she give it to me, she didn’t respond to the question. It was one of the reasons I went to war with her. I found it online. She got a creepy post on her professional site and I told her that her address was out there.
She came unglued on me. She accused me of stalking her, asked how long I’d known and why I said something now, and that she didn’t want to hear this kind of thing anymore. This was from a woman who said she appreciated knowing someone had her back and trusted that I had her best interest at heart. She later apologized and said she was under a lot of stress but I learned something.
My response was how could I watch her back if I wasn’t looking, not only had she not given me her address again but she never acknowledged the question, and I’d known address for three months. I told her the reason I didn’t say anything was I thought I might get that kind of response from her and the reason I said something now was the creepy post on her site. I told her that I’d stop looking and wouldn’t warn her if I saw her about to step in front of a bus. I did stop looking.
I have something I call my “Compensation-to-Aggravation” ratio. I’ll do something as long as that ratio is ≥ 1. Not only was I in the middle of an Emotional Affair that threatened my marriage and family, trying to maintain it had become a pain in the a–. LO #4 had become more trouble than she was worth. A lot of risk, no reward.
Of course, my wife knows none of this.
Adam says
“I dont think i interpreted her niceness as “I want sex” – its more like i interpreted it as “I would love to get to know her better and just talk to her for hours”.”
Vee
I know exactly what you mean word for word. And I think it is a very hard concept for people to grasp when it comes to opposite sex interactions. When LO worked here to my coworkers it was a crush. To my wife it was an EA. (Something I was really careful to let it get to before I even knew what limerence was.) Since I disclosed to my wife about my limerence she still thinks it’s a EA.
It seems like a weird commentary on society, as if ever man (I think this more prevalent with men than women) has nefarious intentions to seduce a woman into sexual intercourse just because he is talking to her. Can I not talk to a pretty single gal and not keep my instincts in check? Sure we are animals but don’t we pride ourselves as a species of free choice and intelligence?
Can I help that when I don’t keep my daydreams in check it is recalling a nice memory of LO? Or imagining what I would say if I ever got to see her again? Or wondering what she is doing right now and if she is happy still? But no because she is a very pretty lady everyone around me thinks I am after carnal things.
Sorry I am in a bad mood today and venting. But yes I get what you mean about how you feel about your LO 100%. Also, with no bad intentions, comes the desire to be in their company. Which makes the limerence hard to keep in check because you can easily rationalize it BECAUSE you don’t want a PA. But believe me that can go south too.
I remember being glad at the news that LO was seeing someone. It helped put a bit of distance between me and her out of respect for the two of them. Especially as I heard/watched the relationship escalate to the point I teased LO on the last day I saw her that I hoped she’d send me an invitation when that day came. 🙂
The damned limerence! You two are just friends. There’s nothing wrong with having a woman as a friend. Friends can hold hands. Friends can give hugs. You are overreacting. Damn you limerence! Thinking brain wtf are you?! This is killing me!
Lovisa says
Wait what? Adam, did you just give us all permission to hold hands with our LOs? Oh my gosh! The high would be amazing! All this time I thought you were holding us limerents to higher standards. Now we can hug them and hold their hands? Woohoo! I already have permission from SO to hug LO, but hand holding? I don’t think he would go for that. SO would say that’s a bit much.
Adam says
Miss Lovisa *gives suspicious eye* I think you intentionally read that wrong 🙂
I shook hands with LO the first time I met her in person (long before the limerence) and that’s the only physical contact that I have had with her. I don’t think I would care either way with more or with no more now. As long as it was within LO’s boundaries.
There were times when she was confessing to me what she was going through with her ex that I felt a hug would help. But I resisted because I didn’t know how she would take it and that was when she was first single. And I had to be honest with myself; you’re not much of a hugger (except my wife) so why do you feel like a hug would help? I guess I was being a little less than selfless then. There was much more physical attraction on my part to LO then than now.
Lovisa says
Oh fine, no hand holding.
Lovisa says
But I’m not giving up the hugs unless SO says I have to. Right now I can have one greeting hug and one goodbye hug.
Lovisa says
Hey guys, can we address the issue of sexual attraction?
Would you enjoy friendship-level contact with your LO if you knew she was sexually attracted to you, but her standards prevent her from acting on that attraction?
Adam says
I’m an all of nothing person. I don’t think I could maintain a friendship-level touching only if I knew that she was attracted to me. It would be too much of a temptation (especially if I was single) to escalate the contact. But while it’s well within me to control the temptation from the attraction I have for her presently, touching would send it into overdrive. That’s why I always left any physical contact to her. The closest I got to that was choosing to sit next to her in the break room at lunchtime.
Thinking on it, it kind of surprises me the physical attraction wasn’t stronger with the lack of physical attention I am getting at home. The emotional attention was more desired for me. Even when LO was single and it would have been easier to test those waters. But as it is while she is one of the most attractive women, physically, that I have ever seen in my life, it really was her heart I was after. And I was totally willing to give my heart to her. And then she ran off with it …..
Lovisa says
Let me see if I understand. If you knew that LO was physically attracted to you, it would be unbearable not to act on those feelings.
I assume you are saying that you would prefer not to know.
Limerent Emeritus says
“Hey guys, can we address the issue of sexual attraction?”
https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-and-sex/ [An early blog with no comments! You can be the first!]
https://livingwithlimerence.com/why-is-limerence-so-powerful/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-seduction-of-romance/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/is-limerence-always-about-pair-bonding/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/why-does-someone-have-a-crush-on-me/
They’re not precise fits but….
Lovisa says
Thanks!
Adam says
Also just remembered how what you said reminded me of this song ..
She Makes Me Feel — Matthew Fisher
https://youtu.be/eLLQsqmPTb0
“She makes me laugh
she makes me cry
she brings me down
and takes me high
she fills me life
and makes it real
no matter what she does
she makes me feel”
Adam says
“Let me see if I understand. If you knew that LO was physically attracted to you, it would be unbearable not to act on those feelings.
I assume you are saying that you would prefer not to know.”
Miss Lovisa I mean that if the feeling of physical attraction were mutual it would be unbearable to have friend-level physical interactions if I was not in a position to escalate them. In my case being married, if I knew LO was attracted to me I would not want ANY physical interactions no matter how innocent they may seem. Things could get real out of hand real fast. At least in the beginning when I had a much stronger physical attraction to her. Now I think I might be able to balance the act but would probably still not want to test fate.
Lovisa says
That is really helpful. Thanks Adam!
Since you are not in a position to express affection to an LO, you would prefer no physical contact. It would be too hard to hug an LO if there was mutual attraction. That is so interesting! It makes sense. Thank you.
Emily says
“In my case being married, if I knew LO was attracted to me I would not want ANY physical interactions no matter how innocent they may seem. Things could get real out of hand real fast.”
I agree with this 100%. Never touched my LO when limerence was at its height. When it faded a bit, LO was the one who initiated hugs. I slapped up my mental barriers, and kept them extremely brief. Do not tempt Fate (or biochemistry).
Lost in Space says
Hey y’all. I had a crazy day today and need some words of support.
Last night LO told me that she got accepted to school and will be leaving our workplace in 2 months. I felt a mix of heartache and relief. And happy for her – she’s in a pretty frustrating dead end job and going back to school will be really good for her. I really do want her to be happy and live her best life.
But today she came to see me repeatedly (in public) and then was texting me about how sad she is about the idea of leaving and not seeing me anymore, and how much she misses seeing me now and has been wanting to start hanging out in person again. And I told her I missed her too and asked if she thought it was safe to see each other in person again. And told her that I was 100% certain I didn’t want anything to happen between us and that I was certain that I wouldn’t try anything, but I needed to know where she stood. And then she told me that she wasn’t able to promise 100% that she wouldn’t try anything with me, but that she still wanted to see me. And I told her that I just couldn’t let anything like that happen because it would just be such a horrible thing to do to my wife. But I also texted her a bunch of stuff I shouldn’t have about how much I still love her and she responded similarly. And the workday ended with some uncertainty about if we’d see each other tomorrow. And then she wanted to text more tonight (against our rules) but I wrote back that we needed to just wait and chat tomorrow.
And then, I swear this is true, my previous LO, who I had not had any contact with in a year, texted me out of the blue half an hour ago just to catch up. So we’ve been texting back and forth catching up on our lives. And she says she wants to come back to our area for a weekend to visit me and my family sometime. I actually didn’t feel much texting with her – I think my limerence has pretty fully transferred to my new LO. But this is the previous LO that my wife was super upset about, so now I have to tell SO about this contact (as we’d agreed previously) and hope that she doesn’t make good on trying to come visit
And to add to it, I had an unusually intense and emotionally draining day at work, and I’m getting sick with a sinus infection or something.
My goal right now is to get some sleep tonight, avoid being alone with LO tomorrow, and make it to the weekend so things can settle down a little
I strongly wish I had not disclosed my feelings. I feel that I’m in a very precarious situation, especially since I don’t know how desperate LO will be to advance our relationship as her departure date gets closer. And I know I threw more fuel on the fire with some poorly thought out comments I made today in the heat of the moment that might have given her false hope. As good as it feels to hear how much she loves me and wants me, I’m also getting kind of scared.
Lovisa says
Lost in Space, you are in a dangerous place. I have a strategy that might help, but it’s no better than the plan you laid out in your post. I think you are committed to your SO. Keep that conviction at the front of your mind for the next two months. It’s going to get hard. She recognizes that she might be willing to compromise her values. Oh boy, I am very concerned about you. Boundaries! Boundaries! Boundaries! Look at it as an endurance challenge. Your goal is to avoid the lure of a PA. You will win this challenge. You will cross the finish line with your integrity. I know you can do it, but it will be harder than any race.
Contact from the previous LO is an interesting twist. I’m not surprised that your limerence for her faded. In theory, we are only capable of having 1 LO at a time.
Speedwagon says
Oh boy! Sounds to me like she is pursuing a sexual experience with you before she leaves, now that there is a finality hanging out there for her.
The question is, do you trust yourself? Do you think you can be in her presence one on one and be 100% committed to no physical contact? And do you trust her? Would she make a first move on you and if she did, what would you do?
Until you can answer these definitively each and every day, you probably should not interact with her in person.
The other thing I wonder…if she does not work at the company, I assume she still lives in town? Is the relationship really going to end or could it ramp up somehow if you no longer work together?
Feels to me like you are reaching a boiling point where you either choose SO and full NC with LO or you choose LO. She might be forcing that decision.
Lovisa says
Lost in Space, DO NOT TRUST LO! She is not thinking clearly right now.
Lost in Space says
I think it’s a lot more that wanting a sexual experience – it’s wanting a long-term future together. There’s no way we could just do it once to see what it was like and then that would be that. And you’re right, even after she leaves, we’ll still be living an hour apart, and in some ways it would actually be easier to meet up somewhere once she’s not working and has a student’s schedule. I can’t allow myself to think I can let things go farther just for the next month or two and then it’ll be over, because it won’t be.
Limerent Emeritus says
Oh, what the hell, LIS!
“Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!” [Adm David Farragut]
And, you thought train wrecks only happened in places like Ohio and Greece. We haven’t had a good one on LwL in weeks, maybe months. [Eye roll…]
To help you along…
“Emotional Rescue” – The Rolling Stones (1980)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDiYf5FZybg
Another early and underappreciated blog by DrL: https://livingwithlimerence.com/integrity/
Just remember, if you’re aware of the risk, understand the consequences, and choose to proceed, a bad outcome is not a tragedy. Except maybe for the innocents who didn’t willingly opt in.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0535/6917/products/overconfidencedemotivator.jpeg?v=1403276078
Lost in Space says
“Except for those innocents who didn’t willingly opt in”. Yep, that’s the phrase to remember every time I want to say “damn the torpedoes”. My wife, my kids, they sure as hell don’t deserve any of that pain.
Coldwater says
LIS- please just remember that texts live on. Every time you send a text remind yourself that your wife could be reading your words in the future. It might not feel like your LO could ever do that- but trust me- under the right circumstances she could. Also- think about your professional life. Do you want your boss to read your texts? Your colleagues?
Please protect yourself more than you are doing. Even people we love can betray you in the end. Especially people who actually may not have that much to lose.
My best friend got divorced over some texts that she thought would only ever be seen by her and her LO. The lawyer was not impressed.
Lovisa says
Holy cow, Coldwater. Can you tell us about your friend’s divorce-causing text?
Coldwater says
Hi Lovisa,
Well… it’s a pretty bad story! My friend was having an EA with her LO for many months- maybe a year. Lots of texting, lots of phone calls, lunches out. That sort of thing. It never got sexual- but they both probably wanted to have an p affair.
Unfortunately, the man was her subordinate at work. At some point, things went south and he reported her to HR for harassment. Her husband saw the texts- she had erased their digital trail- but he had not (despite saying he had.)
There has been other problems with limerence in past- but she believes seeing her texts was the last straw for her husband. Although she wasn’t fired- she left the company… very embarrassing for her and not great for her career.
I read some of the texts in question- and the scary thing is that I know I have written similar flirty things to my LO… it was very eye opening.
LIS- this is the mail point I want to stress. When you are under the fog of limerence you can not see straight. You can not fully know your LO because you will over look their flaws and idealize them.
You might think your LO would never betray you or hurt you- but that is unlikely. At some point the fog lifts and many people feel angry and taken advantage of. Now you might think that LO would NEVER be like that- but it just takes one time of being burned by a former lover to understand.
Best of luck! I am routing for you and hoping you make decisions that protect you and your family. Please do everything in your power to control you desire with connection with this woman. Chances are it isn’t going to end well.
Lovisa says
Thanks for sharing. That is helpful.
Lost in Space says
Thank you coldwater. I can only pray that LO has been deleting our texts as she says she has. I believe her, but of course you can never know for sure. The totality of our texts would show that everything was consensual/mutual (which may or may not matter to our HR department), that things never got physical, but that the feelings ran really strong and deep, including that I told her multiple times that I love her and wished with all my heart we could be together somehow. The thought of my SO somehow seeing those is chilling… and of course individual texts taken out of context could look even worse
Adam says
I don’t know if there is anything else I can say that hasn’t already been said. I know my saving grace was that LO had given no indication she had any attraction to me so there was not a large amount of temptation.
One thing I can offer is what keeps me from contacting LO; you said you wanted her to live her best life. I feel the same for LO. I don’t want my actions or words to ruin what she has. That would be incredibly selfish on my part.
I agree with everyone that commented to keep your wife in mind with this. But if limerence is raging in your head that is probably not a foremost thought. Even if it doesn’t seem right, at least keep LO in mind. Even if she is willing to start something that shouldn’t happen, remember her best interest even if she is not keeping it in mind for herself.
There are times I have been incredibly tempted to call/text LO “just” to say Hi. So far I have been successful in not giving in to those temptations. And while I strive to be faithful to my wife, honestly, the winning thought is that I don’t want to disturb LO’s new and happy life with my stupid limerent brain. I deeply care for her and love her and do not want to be a bad thing in her life because of my selfish limerent brain.
“Staring at the ceiling in the dark
Same old empty feeling in your heart
Cause love comes so slow but it goes so fast
Well you see her when you fall asleep
But never to touch her and never to keep
Cause you love her too much and you dived too deep”
Let Her Go — Passenger
Lovisa says
Yes! Lost in Space, protect LO from herself. She is not thinking clearly right now.
Limmy says
“And while I strive to be faithful to my wife, honestly, the winning thought is that I don’t want to disturb LO’s new and happy life with my stupid limerent brain. I deeply care for her and love her and do not want to be a bad thing in her life because of my selfish limerent brain.”
You are such a decent man, Adam.
I hope while you are caring about the feelings of LO and SO, you also spare a moment to be kind to yourself. It has been so hard for you.
Adam says
I’m not sure I deserve any kindness Limmy. I let another woman get into my head to the point my wife knew something was going on. For the first time in our marriage I made her wonder about our future together. I made her question her decision to marry me.
I know the reason WHY is limerence. The reason I let it go on for as long as it did (and might still be going on if she hadn’t left) was lack of self control and rationalizing something that felt good but was wrong. I have a lot to atone for.
Limmy says
Oh Adam, you know my view on this. What’s in your head stays in your head. You resisted anything irl, and for that you deserve some credit.
And considering the state of your rather difficult marriage (much as you love your SO), it is no surprise that you fell into limerence.
Lost in Space says
Thank you all very much for the comments and the words of caution and realism. I needed the splashes of cold water to the face. Made it through the day today without spending any time alone with LO or texting anything I shouldn’t have. We did stay in contact throughout the day by text and one phone conversation and a short in-person chat in a public place with other people around, but nothing too dangerous was said by either of us.
Now I have the weekend of no contact to cool off which should be helpful. My feeling from her today was that she was wanting to cool things down again as well. We’ve had a few cycles like this where we get ourselves worked up, then take some time to think about it and both decide to step back from the precipice.
Jaideux says
LIS, is it possible to establish a “no more texting” rule with your LO? And then block her number? Or because of work things you can’t until she leaves? Stopping texting and following on social media has been the only things that helped me end a LE.
Vee says
So, i wanted to post an update on my situation.
The last few days have involved heavy interaction with LO. Some in a group setting and some one on one. Up until now, we havent really covered much on the emotional side. This changed over the last two days where LO and I started discussing some personal emotional matters. She confided in me about a few things related to her past and her ex. She was more open with me than ever before. She also expressed her gratitude to me for everything i had done for her.
I enjoyed the conversation way too much and we ran out of time to even finish it. I left feeling on a super high. Im sure this is what cocaine would do to me. I know its my limerent brain but right now everything in my head is in overdrive.
Strangely, the depression i had been feeling about the situation is now not there (for the first time in many months). I am now energised and excited about where LO and I stand. I am happy that she trusted me enough to speak to me about things close to her heart and feel some level of reciprication (even if it is small).
I would like to keep our relationship as strong as it is now – it makes me really happy. I know that there might be a crash coming down the line but right now im too blinded by the amazing last couple conversations.
I think i may be in trouble but maybe its the start of the end of my depression. Would love to hear your thoughts…
Speedwagon says
Hi, Vee! Interesting but not surprising turn of events. I can remember those types of days with my LO. I have some thoughts, and some cautions to impart.
It’s not necessarily a bad thing that you and LO are becoming closer as you work closer together. Friendships at this level happen all the time between people. But be careful, as a limerent you will thrive on it, and right now your relationship took a positive jump and you are energized. The down side is that you have upped your dosage now for reward and future blah interactions that don’t meet those new personal levels will sting and can throw you back into depressive moods.
Also, check yourself from thinking she is romantically attracted to you just because you are sharing closeness. We pretty much figured out from my situation and Rufio (have not heard from him in a couple weeks, hope he’s doing OK) that men can easily mistake a womans friendship cues of desired closeness with romantic attraction. This woman may view you like an older brother, completely respect and admire you, and feel safe to share personal emotions with you and have zero romantic attraction to you. As a limerent, the reciprocated romantic desire is what we most want so it’s easy for our minds to intepret it in these interactions.
Be careful not to overshare. You may need to start thinking of conversational boundaries. It’s one thing to sit and listen and offer some ‘brotherly’ comfort about emotional matters to this woman who is single. It’s another to start sharing reciprocating emotional matters to her about your wife or marriage. That should be an off limit topic and will do damage to your relationship at home. Our goal here is to establish a better connection with SO, not undermine it by sharing personal SO matters with LO. I always did a good job with my LO about not talking about our spouses. I kept our deeper conversations about other life things…kids, career, friends, etc.
I would monitor yourself closely this coming week. Don’t set high expectations. Monday could be a huge let down if LO doesn’t pay you special attention. You want to keep getting that limerent fix, and she might not be selling this week. For me, both then and now, it’s all still about setting the correct expectation with my LO. Setting relational expectations and having them unrealized was my greatest trigger. This usually manifested most in texting which is why I hated the texting. LO was so unpredictable yet I would expect her to behave a certain way and then be crushed when she didn’t. I have worked hard now to not set expectations that rely on her behavior.
Good luck. This can be a precarious spot and you are enjoying heightened euphoria, but I would surmise the crash is coming, be ready for it to soften it’s blow. Keep us posted how this develops and please be mindful of SO and work to strengthen that relationship. My fear is, if things deteriorate with SO, and you keep getting close to LO, you will do something maybe that causes you to be SOL.
I’m sure Lovisa will be a long soon to give her perspective. And Limerent Emeritus will give you the swift kick in the rear we all need.
Vee says
Thanks Speedwagon. As usual I was hoping to hear your perspective and really appreciate your thoughts – there is so much valuable information that you shared and it all makes sense.
In particular – i am so glad you mentioned reducing expectations. I was already setting similar expectations for next week and that is going to lead to a crash.
I also agree that there is still likely no romantic attraction – she may see me just like a brother, mentor or friend that she is open to sharing her thoughts with. That may be the case, but it feels good that she sees me this way. I understand there might be no romantic attraction – i hope i can handle that over the coming weeks and months.
I also have been good about not discussing my situation with SO. I agree that would not be fair or helpful.
I need to keep my expectations in check – and not have the expectation that every week will be like last week. I got a few comments of appreciation and some cues that really made me very feel good but i know that her view is probably that they have no romantic intention – its just my limerent brain intetpreting them (you can see how much i have learned from all of you on LwL!)
Thanks again – i will let you know how the next week goes – i anticipate a roller coaster.
Coldwater says
“ I understand there might be no romantic attraction – i hope i can handle that over the coming weeks and months.”
Think about what you really want in the long run. It sounds like you want a romantic connection. Is that correct?
If that is the case, know that you will be betraying your wife even more than you already are. And yes- you are currently betraying her.
This could easily blow up your life. When your wife finds out (because chances are- she will) she will never look at you the same. She will likely have a very time trusting you- not just romantically but also in other areas. She will probably lose respect for you. In time, your children may find out as well. Your parents. Your in-laws. All your friends. When they look at you they will remember how carelessly you treated your wife and family.
Now hopefully this will not happen. Hopefully, you will remember what you already know- limerence is like cocaine. It is just as addictive. It makes you do things you never thought you were capable of.
Please remember what is at stake here. Walk away. Feel the horrible loneliness and emptiness of ending a LE- anyone limerent knows that pain and depression… and we all want to avoid it.
Know that in the long run you will be ok. Things will turn around. You will get your life and integrity back. You are not the only person to go through this. You will come out on the other side.
Vee says
Coldwater – i hear you.
My logical brain says i dont want anything. My limerent brain is fighting it.
I dont want to hurt my family and dont plan on doing that. I am just trying to navigate these crazy emotions that have been disturbing my life. This weekend i dont feel depressed and my family has had the best version of me in a long time. I hope it lasts a bit longer.
Lovisa says
As usual, Speedwagon has good, realistic advice that he presented with kindness. Thanks Speedwagon.
Vee, I want to echo something that Speedwagon said because it is vitally important…
Never say anything negative about your SO or your marriage to LO. I think speaking positively about SO or your marriage is fine.
Vee says
I agree Lovisa and wouldnt speak badly of SO to anyone
Vee says
Speedwagon – you could see the future.
“You want to keep getting that limerent fix, and she might not be selling this week. For me, both then and now, it’s all still about setting the correct expectation with my LO. Setting relational expectations and having them unrealized was my greatest trigger.”
It has played out that way so far. Discussions have been super professional. I think knowing this may happen (thanks to your post) really helped me deal with it as i significantly lowered my expectations. She also opted out of a few potential interactions which sort of hurt but was actually manageable for me.
We have been getting quite a bit of time together due to work. Half way through the week – im positive that it will end with no major roller coaster or drama which will be great for me.
Speedwagon says
I’m glad to hear you have been able to manage it. For me, managing expectation from LO was everything. I used to tell myself that expectation was the enemy. I remember spending time with LO that felt meaningful and hours later expecting a text from her or the next day expecting that meaningfulness to continue. When it didn’t I would be crushed. I finally learned not to set myself up for expectation from her.
Even this week, during my LE fade now, I still need to be diligent. On Monday I took LO on a work outing with me in the morning (this breaks my LC rule). But, it was her birthday over the weekend and I wanted to do something so we stopped at this cool coffee shop I know of and I bought her coffee/pastry and we had about 30 min to sit and chat. She was very appreciative and was very chatty. I can know she feels close/comfortable with me by how chatty she gets with me. She is not a natural conversationalist so if she gets talking it’s because she is very relaxed. She told me all about her family growing up and had this sparkle in her eye the whole time. I of course was a very attentive listener, made lots of eye contact, gave head nods to show I understood. It was a nice time and felt very meaningful. In all honesty it felt very dateish. Then our work outing was also sort of a fun thing too. All in all I was out about 2.5 hours alone with her.
All this to say, the next day was fairly ho hum with her at the office and I felt a bit let down by it. Not that she was standoffish to me, just I wanted more of the day before but I am not the man in her life to get that. 6 months ago this kind of thing would crush me for a week. Now, slight let down for one day, move on to next day.
You will probably find that LO will come in and out of your life at the office in a meaningful way sporadically as she feels the need for you. It’s nice that she does need you but as a limerent you want that need to be always and to always be more and it’s just not. Proper expectation is key and needs constant reminding. If you keep LC boundaries, then when she does interact with you in meaningful ways, it just a nice surprise instead of an expectation.
Vee says
Speedwagon – thank you
“You will probably find that LO will come in and out of your life at the office in a meaningful way sporadically as she feels the need for you. It’s nice that she does need you but as a limerent you want that need to be always and to always be more and it’s just not.”
Yet again you are spot on. Let me share some context on the rest of the week: one of the days after work this week we were supposed to meet other work colleagues for early dinner but the others cancelled or were not feeling well so it ended up being just LO and I – we spoke and had dinner and it was loads of fun. We laughed and spoke about normal stuff – nothing emotional (im still worried it is a trigger for me). She said the evening was fun. The more i get to know her the harder it gets. She is the same person, not showing any particular interest in me but with my limerence her wanting to spend time with me (even if it is by chance) is a thrill.
The rest of the week was tough for me. I replayed some of our conversation in my head and couldnt stop thinking about it.
Today has been tough. I am looking to give my family some much needed attention over the weekend. Like Speedwagon says – my need for more affection from LO is so painful. I broke down in tears today. I am glad she is my friend but the secret feelings i have for her are hurting my wellbeing.
I did give her some good work feedback about how much i appreciate the work she has been doing. She told me how much she is thankful to me for the work i have helped which was nice to hear.
Next week will likely be more group interactions and possibly some one on one time. Im not sure what to expect.
What a painful situation.
Speedwagon says
Man, Vee. Reading your story is bringing back so many memories of me 8 months ago. The thrill of spending new time together, that high from being around her and having her attention, and then breaking down later when you realize that you want so much more and can’t have it.
For me, when I broke down crying is when I knew I had to do something different. Having the dinner with her, while magical at the moment, only increases the desire for more intimate moments and that leads to depressive let downs. After I had orchestrated some work outings alone with LO some Fridays I would feel deeply down by Saturday afternoon and through the rest of the weekend. After I broke down in tears a couple times I decided no more outings with LO. I resolved to keep all our interactions within the walls of the office. This helped and my mood stabilized. It lasted this way for a good 6 months until December when our texting ramped up and I orchestrated another outing. That outing led to feverish texting and ultimately my disclosure. It can feel so dateish at times and the chemistry can be so good. I thought to myself…how could she not feel what I’m feeling right now. But she didn’t, she had no romantic thoughts about it while I bathed in romantic fantasies about her.
Even now it is still tough. Just this last week it was LOs birthday and I can still orchestrate alone time with her. I did a work outing with her and took her to breakfast. She was so appreciative and became so chatty with me. I could tell she was very relaxed and our chemistry is so strong and 40 min went by in a blink of an eye. It felt dateish.
But…the rest of this week I have now felt more blah than the last few weeks, a setback in my limerent fade, and I can directly attribute it to our outing and alone time. I still get a thrill from being with her but emotionally, nothing good really comes of it. Fun in the moment but exhausting after as I desire more alone time with her that I just can’t have. I’m just coming out of this blah feeling now.
I would encourage you to be very wary of spending outings alone with her, especially if you find yourself breaking down in tears later. Good news is, you seem to be the one controlling the relationship so you have the power to just not initiate something like that.
Speedwagon says
Add on comment…here is a perfect example of me breaking my LC rule and then paying for it.
LO is off today but she got a new office computer and it came today and I was setting it up. My limerent mind decided it might be a good idea to text her middle of day to tell her the computer came and and ask her a contrived question about it. There is no reason I needed to do this other than the desire to interact with her. So I did and immediately I start looking for a text back. For 2+ hours she did not respond and I became obsessed with waiting for a response. Finally she did just to say thank you and answer my meaningless question. I did not text back.
But that is a great example of doing something that sets an expectation of LO within me. It was stupid of me to do and I feel disappointed I did it because I was only really looking for interaction with her.
This next week I need to cool it a bit, I don’t want any big set backs in my positive momentum.
Vee says
Thanks Speedwagon
I have had the same. I now dont send texts as i also have the same trigger (over-anticipating a response). I also struggle with the potential rejection.
Right now my mood is good but it does fluctuate. SO and I are going to dinner and i am hopeful LO will not be in my thoughts and i can just focus on the moment.
Next week involves some work travel with LO and others. I am not sure what to expect but i am trying to manage expectations. It will probably be the last week of heavy work and nonwork interaction for a while and i just need to get through it.
Hopefully all the interactions will be in a group setting which will help. If there is one on one time i do not plan to bring up any heavy emotional topics. I am worried about the potential crash that i will feel at the end of next week knowing interactions will decline. I think now things are okay because i know that i will see quite a bit of LO next week.
Its been a rollercoaster – LO is actually a great communicator and in her words says exactly how she feels and is very direct. This makes me so sure that she just sees me as a friend and nothing more otherwise i would know about it. I just need to keep reminding myself about this (and how much respect she would lose for me if she found out how i feel).
Fingers crossed i make it through the next weeks minefield.
Lovisa says
“… how much respect she would lose for me if she found out how i feel.”
If she finds out how you feel, it will creep her out and make her feel guilty. She will blame herself. She will try to fix it. She will be confused for a bit. Eventually, like Speedy’s LO, she will believe that you are over it and the two of you can go back to being “friends.”
Jaideux says
Vee, Dr L has a blog on using the LO for mood regulation. Limerence in an anti- depressant with horrible, soul crushing side effects.
Beware.
Vee says
Thanks Jaideux. I will go read the blog. I am concerned and hope i can survive this. I have no way of reducing contact. Reducing the emotional discussions are possible – but i enjoyed the last one so much ;(
I even got a hug initiated by her at the end of our last discussion which was completely unexpected and has never happened over the past few years. I know this is me reading to much into things and rationalisimg things (or at least i need to keep telling myself that). I also got a comment something along the lines of “thank you, that is such a wonderfully nice thing to say”.
I am in a minefield 🙁
Lovisa says
Vee, the hug was a friendly gesture. It means she feels safe and close to you. That is all. Your limerent brain will twist interactions with her into something else.
She probably sees you as a mentor. Remind yourself that her gestures mean friendship to her. If LO sends a signal that feels like romantic interest, tell the LwL community. You need a female perspective because men tend to overestimate a woman’s interest. I suspect that your LO has no idea how much she effects you because women tend to underestimate a man’s interest.
You are doing great! I think you are lucky to have Speedwagon’s story nicely laid out in the comments section. You’re story is so similar.
Speedwagon says
A hug??? That might be the most important piece of info. She hugged you after an emotional connection. That’s big. She is not afraid of physical contact. I’ll be very interested to see if this week she keeps pursuing this same level of connection or if she backs off because you already filled a need last week.
Minefield for sure. Proceed very cautiously with your emotions. Tamper expectation. Read the blog on being friends with LO…do you think you can have a deeper friendship with her if that is all she wants? Limerence seems to always demand more.
Lovisa says
“She hugged you after an emotional connection. That’s big.”
It might be big for Vee, but it probably isn’t big for LO. Women hug and they don’t give it a second thought unless there is already something behind it.
Speedwagon says
Yes, I guess I over estimate it because my LO never hugged me. I would have died had she ever done that.
Limerent Emeritus says
“Yes, I guess I over estimate it because my LO never hugged me. I would have died had she ever done that.”
You mean like this, Speedy?
“(I Just) Died In Your Arms” – Cutting Crew (1986)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZIOkbrX_uU
That was too easy….
By the time this came out, LO #2 had declined my marriage proposal and moved across the country. But, we were still together on paper.
Lost in Space says
Hi Vee – You are indeed in a minefield. It’s time to think very carefully about every step you make at this point. How far do you really want this to go? How much are you willing to risk? It’s a heck of a lot easier to stop moving forwards than it is to turn things back once they’ve gone too far.
If you’re like me, you’ll be tempted to do things to try to recreate the experience you had last week. Are you going to see her looking sad and tell her that you’re always there for her if she needs to talk? Text her with a song that you think would make her happy? Initiate the next hug yourself? Share a few things about your own struggles to deepen the bond? I’ll admit I did all of those with my LO and now I’m in a pretty deep hole.
If you start pushing things forward, even in small and seemingly harmless ways, you could find yourself in a real EA easier than you can imagine. And I’m guessing that probably sounds at least halfway appealing to you right now, but I hope the stories that I and some others have shared on here can highlight both the danger and the heartbreak that will inevitably follow. Please protect yourself and don’t let yourself get in too far to get back out again without causing serious pain to yourself and the other important people in your life.
Vee says
LiS – thanks for the timely reminder.
I admit that recreating last week is appealing but i know it will make things worse in the long run like you and others have pointed out. I will show restraint and professionalism – time will tell just how much.
Getting to know her better has been really nice. If she initiates deepening our emotional connection i do not think i will be able to resist engaging in the conversation and sharing my perspective which she appreciates. I just need to keep reminding myself she is seeking my perspective as a friend or mentor not as a romantic interested person! I still believe she has no romantic interest in me and she has just been her friendly self.
Vee says
Lovisa – i am super glad to get your female opinion. I interpeted the hug that way too and thats why i didnt even mention it when i first posted about what happened. I assume it is just a friendly gesture. Simce you asked about possible romantic signals – she did at some point in one of our conversations throw out the words “you are so sweet” …. okay thats the extent of what my limerent brain could be interpreting as signals. I have played down all of them to just her being friendly and nothing more.
Speedwagon – thanks again. Its great to hear from someone who has experienced something so similar. The hug was a goodbye hug. I wasnt expecting one. It was straight after our emotional chat. I am not sure what to expect next week but i will keep you updated (hopefully i get through without any drama)…i will also go read the blog now.
Lovisa says
Vee, thank you for sharing the signal that has you pondering her level of interest. It means friendship to her.
“You are so sweet” means that she likes how you treat her. She would say that to anyone.
Vee says
Thanks Lovisa. I agree. Also confirmed by me having heard her say it to other people! Its just her being friendly.
Adam says
“you are so sweet Adam” I am pretty sure was when the glimmer hit me Vee. I had bought her favorite coffee drink (and something for the rest of the office but everyone knew) from her favorite coffee shop and that was her response.
Of course a friendly thank you for doing a kind thing for a person is twisted when you have a limerent mind. I hung on that “you are so sweet” for weeks constantly over thinking why she said that in that sweet angelic voice. Oh yeah, stupid limerence.
A hug from LO would have probably sent me over the psychological cliff into the abyss of no turning back. Miss Lovisa and all our female posters are great to have here for their perspective. Women are more free with giving out physical contact than men. I think that’s why us male limerents fall down the rabbit hole more often than the lady limerents. Though I’d imagine there is something us men do we don’t realize that affect the lady limerents.
Vee I am very glad there were people to help you along with your issue. I know so many have helped me here to with mine. It’s been over 9 months since the last time I saw LO and it’s torturing me every day. I can’t imagine if I was actually still having to interact with her and try to get over her at the same time. From your story I can say you are doing better than I would in your shoes.
Vee says
Adam – I completely missed this. Thanks for your response.
So – there have been many developments since my last post:
LO subsequently opened up to me about so many issues from her previous marriage – some aspects that she has only told to a few people (per her own admission). This was hard for her to do seeing that I am her boss. This pushed the rescue situation into the next level and really did not help my limerence. She really appreciated me listening (I still am convinced that she is just grateful to be able to talk to someone about what she went through and interested in nothing more). My mind knows that it is such a big trigger and that I should avoid these emotional topics but I have not been able to stop the discussions (and in truth enjoy them way too much).
Over the past few weeks we spend quite a bit of time together because of work, and the discussions were ongoing and such a high for me. The last weekend was a disaster – I knew after the high of so much contact it was going to be a crash and it was. Speedwagon – we also shared some “date-ish” moments alone – I think you know what I mean. Maybe it was just me that found them “date-ish.
I went for my first counselling session last week to speak about the depression and lows. I didn’t yet disclose to the therapist about the limerence – but we spoke at length about what is missing in my marriage and what I can do about it.
I’m trying to focus on my marriage and what I can do better. My mind is pre-occupied with this person who still has no clue about my true feelings. Luckily work contact is planned to be much lower over the next couple of weeks.
This hole I am in is getting deeper and it’s no one’s fault except my own 🙁
Speedwagon says
Ouch…tough spot to be in. Glad the counseling started, I am still seeing mine 8 months later and she does talk about deficiencies in my marriage and what I am seeking from LO.
Is your LO the one initiating these conversations? On one hand I would say try to steer clear of the deeper conversations but maybe she is the one initiating. My LO never initiates much of anything so I just steer clear when I need to which is most of the time. It frustrates me a ton and yet it’s a good thing as well as it lets me be LC fairly easily.
What about other cues of attraction? Does she seem to exhibit anything to you that makes you feel affection or special attention? Or does she keep her distance other than confiding in you? Makes me wonder if she sees you like a father figure mentor type or sees you for more?
I would say stay vigilant and maybe practice a little bit of LC where you can. Little steps at a time. I find that I like a little daily office interaction with LO but not too much that it feels like I am pursuing LO.
I discovered a new no-no with my LO. Yesterday she worked from home and I had a little frustration with her over her work. Later in the day I emailed her and politely voiced my frustration. She emailed back a fairly emotionally charged defensive email. It caught me off guard. So I emailed back a little reassurance that my frustration is not anger and that it would be best to talk in person come Monday. She has not responded. Ughhh! Now this will be on my mind about LO all weekend. Conflict with LO also triggers heightened limerent feelings.
Adam says
Those kinds of conversations are so rewarding but at the same time very bad to get through a LE. I know when LO would talk to me about her ex and some of the issues they had in the marriage and ask my opinion because in her own words “you’ve been married 23 years you know how to make a marriage work” made me feel like a superhero. Why wouldn’t I want to help her; she’s in distress. Yeah the whole rescue complex is very bad to pair with limerence.
Thankfully by the time I think the glimmer hit I wasn’t working with LO everyday, just a handful of times per month after. But even then I looked forward to those days so desperately.
I agree with concentrating on my marriage and seeing what/why I am so desperately seeking something from another woman to become limerent. Eventually I would like to go to couples therapy (for reason I stated in comments in Dr.L’s latest blog post) and see what it is we both need or feel we are not getting enough of. And why I am getting limerent for another woman? Why is our marriage sexless? These are the two big things and there’s a reason for it for both my wife and myself.
It’s difficult I know. Some weeks back I had to work on the weekend making a delivery and was out on back roads, pulled over and was really wanting to call LO. I even had my finger over her contact on my phone. Instead I called the person that’s under her name, another coworker. I just small talked with her and that got me past the yearning to call LO. If it helps try to remember when you do good and pat yourself on the back. If you are anything like me you spend more time chastising yourself for the bad than remembering the good.
Lovisa says
Guys, women are more innocent than men. They also love to feel close to safe people. IT ISN’T ABOUT ROMANCE OR SEX most of the time. It is usually just about connecting with a safe person. I am so sorry that these moments are hard on men. We don’t know we are causing you distress. We think you care about our wellbeing and it makes us feel so good. We don’t know that you have to schedule appointments with therapists because we opened up to you about a personal problem. Seriously, I am so sorry. I apologize on behalf of my gender.
Vee, I think she just sees you as a mentor. She will probably show some symptoms of favoring you above others and she might be alluring. She will do these things because she likes to feel close to you. SHE DOESN’T WANT SEX or ROMANCE. She wants friendship. I’m so sorry for the confusion. She isn’t doing it on purpose and she doesn’t know what it’s doing to you.
Oh boy, good luck. Brace yourself because it will get worse unless you become boring. You might have to become a grey rock to protect your heart.
Vee says
Speedwagon – i was quite conscious not to initiate but when the topic of her ex came up i did show empathy and ask questions to understand better what she went through. She definitely appreciated me listening and caring. I cannot think of any romantic cues that she showed – i genuinely thinks she now just sees me as a mentor that can help her deal with her issues. We havent had any conflict as yet but will keep that trigger in mind. She is a very open person and i think it would be easy to tell if there were romantic feelings but there are not – its hard for me to deal with that reality that she does not see me that way (although i know it is a good thing).
Adam – hearing how poorly she was treated has really made the LO worse. I keep thinking how much better she deserves and how i could be everything she is looking for. She spoke about how her and her ex hardly spoke to each other.
Lovisa – “We think you care about our wellbeing and it makes us feel so good.” – the truth is i care about her wellbeing so much. I really do and i am not thinking about romance or sex in those moments but thinking about how i wish i could be there and care for her wellbeing all the time because selfishly it makes me feel so good to be able to be there for her. Because of this forum i have been well aware not to misinterpret her confiding in me with anything more than just she trusts me. It is not her fault – it is mine. I know she is just being open with me and nothing more. I do want to always be there for her emotionally – no one else has been but the lows it causes when i am not spending time with her are so difficult. I know the right thing is to change topic or avoid discussing the emotional personal issues but right now it is just too hard for me and i care too much for her to go into grey rock boring mode.
Next therapy session is next week – i will have lots to unpack.
Lovisa says
Vee, I believe you won’t lose your head about the situation with LO. You seem to understand that her desire for closeness is exactly what it appears to be: she likes that you are a safe person to open up to. Sorry about the all-caps. I know it’s hard for you guys understand that her alluring signals are about friendship and I wanted you to internalize it. You seem to understand and that is awesome! You will be capable of enjoying male/female relationships even if feelings of attraction are triggered in you. Woohoo! Way to control yourself. Because of your ability to navigate this relationship with boundaries, you don’t have to end it. And she gets an attentive friend. Lucky girl!
Adam says
I’m totally with you on that Vee. To be the man LO’s ex wasn’t made her feel better and made me feel good. I never really had romantic or sexual thoughts about LO. I just wanted her to be happy and not distressed and anxious like she was when I first met her.
I care so much for her and it is why now I leave any communication up to her. The man she is with now DOES treat her right and cares for her and her daughters. I had my time with her. Now it is his time. Now I need to fill that void. Being there for LO gave me so much purpose. I felt needed and functional. She gave me as much as I gave her if not more. But as the song line goes ….
“Well you see her when you fall asleep
But never to touch her and never to keep
Cause you love her too much and you dived too deep”
A lot of this we brought on ourselves. Maybe our LO’s bear some part in it. But had it been a fellow male friend confiding in us for advice would the same thing have happened? I know its part of being a man to want to help and protect women we care about. And its an admirable quality. Its throwing in the limerence that makes it difficult.
Limerent Emertius says
Adam,
Start here: https://livingwithlimerence.com/barriers-and-uncertainty/#comment-3739
That blog is one “The Best of DrL.”
“Should you find that your crush is complicit
Please, try to avoid the explicit
No coyness or flirting
You might end up hurting
Or worse, take part in behavior illicit!” – https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-music/#comment-1541
coldwater says
Vee-
Of course! I completely understand. No one wants to hurt their family- but limerence is a scary thing. From everything you have written, I believe you want to do the right thing- and you are doing the right thing by reaching out to people on this blog. As you already know, there is a wealth of knowledge. I see and hear the struggle- and have also been there in my own life.
When I was deep in the throes of a LE (and in my heart, wanted a PA) I had a trusted friend really outlined the risk I would be taking and all the things I could lose. My very happy marriage, my family, my home, my place in my community, my values, etc… It was very helpful for me. I would come back to that list again and again. It really helped me resist taking things further. Eventually, I went NC which has been the best thing for me- although it HURT like h*ll at the time. It hurt for a long time… but then it got better.
My concern for you about the depression is that the high of limerence is unlike any high I have ever experienced… but it is not sustainable. It is like any drug out there. Eventually, your depression will probably return- and it may in fact be worse than before. On top of the depression, you have now trained your brained to think about your LO incessantly. Depression is a very real thing. During the pandemic I needed to go on anti-depression medication to help with my anxiety.
I know it might seem like you LO is the answer for mood regulation- but read the 100s of comments on this blog. It is a very short term fix with nasty side effects.
frederico says
An eloquent, measured, thought-provoking post, coldwater
Speedwagon says
I would agree with much of this and I would advocate full NC in most every situation but for Vee, it’s not possible. The nature of their working relationship means he has to interact with LO. I am the same with my LO, I have to interact with her daily.
For me, when I was in the height of my LE I strategized a LC plan and tried hard to stick to it. By trial and error I found out what level of interaction and boundaries with LO stabilized my mood so I wouldn’t hit depressive lows and could function adequately. Too much interaction causes a crash later. Too little made me miss LO too much. There was a delicate balance.
Now, one year later I feel the distress of my LE fading with LO. I have come to accept the level of relationship I have with her, which is friendly and warm, but not intimate in any way. I’m starting to see her faults more clearly. I keep a steady routine with LO that I know I am OK to function within. We have enjoyable office interactions that stay professional and we do not interact over text outside the workplace.
I am rooting for Vee to get to the same place I am, but it will take time and quite honestly it will take some cooperation from LO not to pursue him. My LO never really pursued me, but she would not shy away from my pursuit either.
So far Vee has kept it professional but I can see where he is flirting with the edges of a possible EA. Above all else, keep everything within the boundaries of professional conduct. That doesn’t mean there can’t be friendship but it has to be monitored closely professionally and with SO.
Adam says
“My concern for you about the depression is that the high of limerence is unlike any high I have ever experienced… but it is not sustainable.”
As an addict and recovering from other addictions previous in life I will agree with you 100%. LO could send me on high no other substance on this earth could even compare to. Hell it’s 9 months since I have seen her and I still ain’t over her. I didn’t take me that long to kick tobacco, caffeine or sugar.
I talked to her once since her last day at work. I rode that high a lot longer than I should have. That’s been 7 months ago. That possible 10 minute phone conversation with LO that SHE initiated sent me on a rumination that I am still suffering through now. Over thinking kills me when I can’t reason an action on her part. For her she has probably long forgotten that conversation whereas I can recite it almost word for word. Damn you limerence!
Limerent Emeritus says
“For her she has probably long forgotten that conversation whereas I can recite it almost word for word.”
7 months? I’ve been doing that for going on 40 years (1983) with LO #2. I remember a few things LO #4 said pretty much verbatim but not many.
The therapist said I have mild PTSD. But, it got a lot better after doing the work.
It took the Israelites 40 years to make it out of the wilderness. I should be getting close to the Promised Land!
Adam says
People either tell me “you’ll get over her” or “you need to get over her” but I don’t think either two are possible. I believe I can move forward with my life eventually but there will always be a place in my mind and heart where she will reside. And as long as that is in an as healthy as way possible I have to live with that.
The thoughts of LO make me think of countless songs (by surprisingly mostly male artists) of the agony of getting over someone. I would before this LE wonder how that was. I’ve had interests in women before that didn’t come to fruition and I was perfectly capable of moving forward and getting over that person. But she is different and all those songs suddenly make perfect sense.
Hopefully you will make it to the Promised Land LE. I think you’ve wandered long enough. Unfortunately the manna of LO is hard to resist.
Limerent Emeritus says
Adam,
tl/dr
“The thoughts of LO make me think of countless songs (by surprisingly mostly male artists) of the agony of getting over someone. I would before this LE wonder how that was.”
Something like this?
“Sad Songs (Say So Much)” – Elton John (1984)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6qlLJp53EM
“Guess there are times when we all need to share a little pain
And ironing out the rough spots
Is the hardest part when memories remain
And it’s times like these when we all need to hear the radio
‘Cause from the lips of some old singer
We can share the troubles we already know…
The kick inside is in the line that finally gets to you
And it feels so good to hurt so bad
And suffer just enough to sing the blues…”
1984 was the zenith of my time with LO #4. It was all downhill after that. 3 years worth of downhill.
“Hopefully you will make it to the Promised Land LE. I think you’ve wandered long enough. Unfortunately the manna of LO is hard to resist.”
Here’s the thing. It took me over 20 years to even realize that I was wandering. It took several years to understand my relationship with LO #2 and things got markedly better.
However, I hadn’t finished the job. I was vulnerable to another LE. Enter LO #4. In many ways, she reminded me of LO #2, including a more than passing physical resemblance. Only this time, I was married and the LE/EA posed a significant risk to my marriage.
I didn’t have to pay for my mistakes. I got through it more by accident than design. LO #4 came to her senses and gave me the way out. I had the best of intentions all around but good intentions don’t always yield good outcomes.
I didn’t want to hurt my wife and kids. I didn’t want to hurt LO #4. I didn’t want to hurt anybody. I’m pretty sure I might have hurt LO #4’s feelings or, at least, pissed her off.
In her goodbye, she said, “I’ve been thinking about this several weeks. I wish you no ill will.” She also mentioned when I went to war with her and said, “I don’t like the way that feels.” But the best part of her goodbye was:
“I’ve been trying to put myself in your wife’s shoes. How would you feel if she was corresponding with a man that she was attracted to in the same capacity as you write to me? If you have to hide our correspondence from your wife, it’s not good.”
LO #4 is very fluent and a master of nuance. The use of “capacity” was an odd choice. It’s the flat out wrong word. No definition or synonym is appropriate. “Manner” or “way” would be correct choices. Between that and the “No ill will” statement, I wonder if saying goodbye was hard for her. I’d like to think so.
They’re well behind me. There’s a game I play periodically. I clear my mind and let it drift into the future. I don’t think about what I want the future to be, I want to see where my mind goes on its own. Thinking about what you want the future to be is a different game entirely. That’s the “Fairy-Tale-Ending Game.”
When I play the first game, neither LO is there. My wife’s there. I don’t play the FTE game anymore because I played it enough to know there isn’t an FTE with either LO.
Sometimes, playing the first game can tell you there isn’t an FTE and you can save yourself a lot of grief.
Lost in Space says
Wanted to give an update on my situation. As I previously wrote, I had a highly emotionally charged texting session with LO last Thursday (with her hinting at wanting a PA and me professing my undying love but firmly rejecting physical contact) and then last Friday we talked a lot by phone and text but it was all friendly stuff without the dangerous stuff. We did our usual no-contact over the weekend, and then for the first part of this week she was much more cold and distant – some of my texts got one-word replies while others went completely ignored. She clearly did some reflecting over the weekend and made a decision to pull away.
So being an idiot, I decided to make some romantic gestures to regain her affection, and I sent her videos of me playing and singing a couple of romantic songs for her, including a nice piano/vocal cover of a love song that I know is one of her favorites. I’ve done this periodically over the past few months and always gotten a good response, including last Thursday when she told me how good it made her feel when I sent her songs and how it even brought her to tears with emotion when I sang for her. This week I got no response back after both songs, and then when I texted her yesterday to ask if she’d like to talk on the phone for awhile, she said she was too tired, and also politely but coldly told me I should not send her any more songs.
I thanked her for being direct with me about the songs, and told her that I wouldn’t do that again, and that while I’d love to keep talking with her, I was going to stop contacting her until she contacts me again. I’ve had the feeling for awhile that she’s been trying to pull away while I keep chasing her (except for all the intermittent times when she continued to be really enthusiastic about me – just so hot and cold!)
I think that she and I are looking for different things. I’ve been wanting to continue in an EA with her without taking it any further, and have been really clear with her that that’s what I want. I feel like I could be happy doing that forever. For her, I don’t think she can exist comfortably in that space – she needs our relationship to either be everything or nothing. I know from our texting last week that she still has strong feelings for me and wants me, so I’m pretty sure she’s pulling away now to protect herself from further heartbreak and to keep herself from doing something she’d feel really guilty about later.
Today was our first workday in weeks with no contact. I held strong and didn’t contact her at all. I kept hoping she’d contact me but she didn’t. I mostly did ok today – just kept reminding myself that while I feel really sad, confused and embarrassed, I need to just sit with these feelings because I’ve earned them, and not try to get the easy fix of contacting her. I did have a breakdown alone in my office at the end of the day, where I had a good cry thinking that I may actually never talk with her again.
But overall I’m trying to spin it as a positive. By putting it entirely in her hands whether or not to resume contact, I avoid having to feel like I’m pursuing someone who’s decided it’s over, and I also don’t have to feel like I’m abandoning her (my last texts to her yesterday made it clear I love her and would love to continue to talk with her but will also respect whatever she needs and wants). I’m telling myself it’s a win-win for me – either she never contacts me again and I get my life and sanity back, or she does contact me again and then I can resume some sort of relationship with her knowing that she does really want to remain in a relationship with me.
Lovisa says
Hey Buddy, hang in there. I think this is for the best.
Speedwagon says
LIS, I can’t imagine the turmoil of this situation. I try to imagine myself in your situation with my LO and good lord I would be a complete mess. You are handling this well considering her advances.
If I remember correctly, she is leaving the company so you would have the ability to go full NC? I give you my full support in that decision should you attempt it cold turkey. It sounds like there is no slight withdraw to this one, kind of an all or nothing situation and nothing is the only real choice here that align with your values.
Hang in there!!!
Limerent Emeritus says
A few more “Rescue” songs that you can use a soundtrack while reading the blog…
“I Can Help” – Billy Swan (1974)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDuqMzOOxY8&list=RDlDuqMzOOxY8&start_radio=1
“Rock and Roll Dreams Come Through (w/lyrics) – Meat Loaf (1993)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gtw-ydJYFRI
When LO #4 was pouring her heart out to me, I’d listen to this. I would link songs to cheer her up. I don’t remember if this was one of them. I was trying not to be too obvious.
“I’m Gonna Love Her for Both of Us” – Meatloaf (1981)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FthXxxD7FoU
Q: What’s a little different about this song?
A: The singer confronts the SO, at least in his head.
This song could also go here: https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-ulysses-contract/
The blog applies here.
“When the screws are tightenin’ and the tears are falling
I can hear her crying out to be saved
And like a bolt of lightning I go answer the call
But she’s singing like a siren to me over the waves”
When I met with the EAP counselor after LO #4 had (allegedly) refused to stop cheating on her and sucker punched her from behind, she asked if I planned to do anything. I told her “No” because there was nothing I could realistically do for LO #4. The EAP counselor came back with, “Good. Don’t give her any money.”
I told the EAP counselor that if I could prove he assaulted her and I ran into him, I wouldn’t mind taking a few shots at his knees with a baseball bat or knocking him down the Woodley Park escalator. https://www.facebook.com/MeteorologistChesterLampkin/videos/the-woodley-park-station-escalators-are-204-feet-long-and-are-the-longest-escala/509132149697894/
Lost in Space says
I’ve really been struggling with the rescue fantasy stuff this week. LO and I managed to be NC pretty much all but one day during the last week, but I know that she’s really struggling – she’s going through a lot in her home life and with her big upcoming career change, and she’s been very stressed and anxious, going home early on Thursday with headaches and calling out sick on Friday.
Any time in the last few months, I would have been able to make her feel better – I could always make her smile, give her a laugh, or just soothe her anxieties through a long talk. But now I strongly sense she doesn’t want me to play that role for her, and in fact I may be a part of the anxieties that she’s trying to manage (she told me recently that the thought of leaving and not seeing me anymore was screwing with her head really badly, and I think now she’s avoiding me out of self-preservation)
So I’m trying, as much as I’m able, to let go of my strong urges to be there for her and make her feel better. So much of my energy the past few months has been wrapped up in trying to make her happy, and man it felt good when I could do it! But now I think I have to come to terms with the fact that it’s just not my role anymore (and never should have been in the first place) and try to come to a place of acceptance about that.
I’ve been listening to this Josh Ritter song a lot this week called Girl in the War. To me anyway, it’s about loving someone who’s going through something bad and not being able to help them. This is my favorite line: “I got a girl in the war and there’s nothing that I can do… except turn up the music, and pray that she makes it through”
I started trying something new yesterday. Every time I think of her (which is still pretty often) I try to just visualize her doing something that makes her happy. If I’m outside and it’s a sunny day, I visualize her in her backyard playing with her dog. If I’m eating dinner, I imagine her at her favorite restaurant. If I’m playing with my kids, I picture her dancing around her house with her little girl. And I try to just spend a few moments visualizing her being happy in her own life (because even with all the bad stuff I know she does have good stuff too) and then bounce my thoughts back to something else. I won’t say this has worked every time, but it’s been mostly helpful and I’m gonna keep trying it. Today was actually the first day of NC that I haven’t cried at all, so that’s a good start!
Lovisa says
That is hard, Lost in Space. You are shouldering a heavy burden. Your coping skill is interesting to me. You recognized that you are drawn to her when she is in distress so you are imagining her when she is happy. It might help minimize your desire to rescue her. When you’re ready, I encourage you to replace thoughts of LO with thoughts of something else that interests you. I am concerned that thinking of her during dinner or while you are outside will program you to think of her during those activities. I understand why you’re doing it. It makes sense. But I would like to see you get to a good place and intrusive thoughts of LO are not helpful. I am concerned that thinking about her at all will set you up for intrusive thoughts. I understand that you are going through a mourning process that takes time. You are doing your best to cope. I wonder if you are ready to use Dr L’s Deprogramming method.
Also, while you go through the pain of withdrawal, will you think about personal boundaries? How will you safeguard yourself against future LEs? Were there obvious mistakes that escalated the relationship that you intend to never repeat with another woman? Do you see gaps in your relationship with SO that you can work on? What else comes to mind when you think about doing better next time?
My heart goes out to both of you. NC is the right thing to do, it’s just so hard. Good job! Be strong.
Lost in Space says
Thanks Lovisa, I appreciate your thoughts and support as always
I want to clarify that I already have intrusive thoughts about LO – I’ve had them pretty constantly ever since we started texting each other in November. NC has started to decrease the frequency a bit, which has been good. But thoughts of her still force their way into my mind many, many times every day. My strategy comes from something a few meditation instructors have taught me – when meditating and trying to clear your mind, you can’t force yourself not to have thoughts. That’s like saying “don’t think about horses” – the more you say it, the more you’re thinking about horses. Instead, it’s better to just acknowledge each thought, examine it for a moment, bless it and then sent it on its way. Don’t fight the thoughts, just hold them loosely and then let them go.
And so that’s what I’m trying to do with thoughts of LO now, whenever and wherever they come – acknowledge that I’m thinking about her, spend a moment to visualize her being happy in that moment without needing me to make her happy, and then let the thought go.
I think it’s sort of a version of Dr L’s deprogramming strategy, except I’m not using negative thoughts about LO to alter the feedback loop. That strategy certainly might work and it might be a faster way to reprogram myself, but I just don’t have any interest in thinking bad things about her, even if it would be good for me. I just don’t want to do that.
Finally, yes, absolutely, this experience has made me feel very committed to never letting myself go down this path again – which for me would mostly mean not engaging in personal texting with a woman I’m attracted to, because the intermittent reward structure and 24/7 connection of texting is way too addictive. This experience is definitely something I have no interest in repeating in any way. I feel like I took this LE as far as I possibly could without quite crossing the uncrossable lines. For a married limerent, getting to where I got seemed like it would be the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. But instead of a pot of gold, all I got at the end of the rainbow was a mean little leprechaun stabbing my heart out. Never again.
Lovisa says
I like where you are going with this, Lost in Space.
Nice work on the meditation. It sounds like an effective way to reduce intrusive thoughts.
I agree that mutual limerence is more of a curse than a reward when you are in a committed relationship with someone else. Not only are you dealing with your own symptoms, you are also aware that your actions may intensify symptoms in your LO. It’s a delicate thing to balance.
I like your “no personal texting with potential LOs” rule. It’s a good way to reduce the chance this would happen again. My rule is to avoid disclosure and, if someone discloses to me, I’ll lie and say that I don’t share their feelings. Lying is hard for me, so I’ve role-played this scenario in my mind a few times. I hope I can pull it off. Who am I kidding? I can’t do it. I don’t have a solution yet to handle disclosure from a potential LO. I will be pondering this. What would you recommend? Here is how it went down with my current LO. He said something like, “I’m sorry, I can’t be your friend anymore because I am too attracted you. I’m sorry that I let my feelings for you reach this level, too.” How should I respond to something like that in the future?
Good luck!
Lost in Space says
Lovisa – by the time you’re thinking about disclosure and/or your LO is disclosing to you, you’ve already gone pretty far down the limerence path. Do you want to let things get that far again? Perhaps you do, especially since you seem to draw a lot of energy and other benefits from it, plus your SO seems unusually understanding and accommodating (although I wonder if this would still apply equally to LO4 and LO5 and so on, or if some day he’ll reach a breaking point). Or perhaps you don’t, because it does seem like your LE is causing you a fair amount of distress as well as benefits.
I was reading the blog post the other day about “tipping points in a limerent affair”, which I found really helpful to think about all the steps that we progress through before becoming fully limerent to the point where disclosure becomes a possibility. For me, I want to be sure to cut things off at the beginning and not let things start going down that pathway at all because there’s just so much heartbreak waiting. Would you want to cut things off earlier as well, or would you still welcome another LE in your life once your current LE fades?
I have had success a couple of times in the past recognizing things early and cutting them off. One episode in particular is worth sharing. I’ve mentioned before that LO3 was the only one that my SO knew about, and she almost divorced me over it. Anyway, a few months after LO3 moved away and SO and I were patching things up in marriage counseling, I felt the glimmer for another woman I met. Not exactly a coworker but a work contact who worked at another organization I had occasional contact with. The first time we met, there was an instant connection and we ended up talking for an hour after the work stuff was completed and traded phone numbers “for work purposes”. We started texting to arrange a work thing, and then soon after that we were texting about personal stuff. She knew I was married and she told me she had a fiancee, but that didn’t seem to matter. After a couple weeks, I got a text from her at like 11pm when I was still up and my SO was asleep, and we started chatting by text, and then I just had this moment of clarity like “dude, what in the living hell are you doing” and I texted her that I had to go to sleep and from then on I only responded to her texts during work hours and kept my responses limited to business – she got the hint fairly quickly and it stopped there. Interestingly, not long after that I had not one but 2 mutual acquaintances warn me about her, saying that she was a really attractive woman and she obviously liked me a lot and had been blabbing to everyone about how close me and her were. It would have been an unmitigated disaster if I’d let myself get any closer to her
After that, I kind of kept my guard up and didn’t get too close to any other women for a couple of years, and then LO4 came along and I let my guard down again, due to a combination of being in a rut in my marriage and having sort of forgotten the potential consequences of another LE. And now here we are…
So in the future, I think my strategy involves:
1) Continuing to invest in my marriage more actively to prevent me from feeling such a need for connection with other women
2) Work on myself through therapy and other means to figure out why I have this emotional void that I’m trying to fill through other women
3) When I do feel the glimmer or meet a potential LO, keep my boundaries up, in part by “playing the tape forward” and reminding myself of where it’ll lead if I let myself go. It’ll actually be great having all of these blog comments as a sort of written record of the heartache from my current LE to review anytime I start to forget how terrible it ended up being.
Lovisa says
Thanks, Lost in Space, that is humbling. I have some soul searching to do. And no, I don’t want an LO4. I want to get my emotional intimacy needs met in a healthy way.
Limerent Emeritus says
Lovisa,
No LO #4?
C’mon…You’re not thinking this through.
In the Alternate Universe, your 3 LOs need a 4th for Bridge so they can play while talking about you.
I have to explain everything 🙂
Limerent Emeritus says
LIS,
It can be really hard when your LO reaches out and you can’t respond to them.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/people-pleasing-limerents/#comment-7878
Lost in Space says
Thanks for those ideas, especially the FOG acronym
Fear – not in my case
Obligation – yes. It fees like if you care immensely about someone and see them suffering, you’re obligated to help them (although that’s not true in this case)
Guilt – yes. I feel guilty that I let her fall in love with me and now she’s getting her heart broken (even though she’s equally guilty). I tried to never lead her on or give her false hope about a real future together, and I never did directly with my words, but I know a lot of my actions must have given her some hope.
Other things that make it hard to pull away:
-I just miss her – her voice, her smile, the talks we had, the way she made me feel. Part of me really wants all of that back
– Part of me still feels a really intense need to bond with her and get closer to her, like the lifelong pair-bonding stuff that underlies limerence
– I’d also be lying if I said that part of me didn’t still want to have sex with her. It’s partly lust since she’s just a really sexy woman, and partly curiosity/FOMO. In 20 years as a married man, this is the first time another woman has straight up told me that she really wants to have sex with me. Hearing that from her, as well as revving up my hormones, also created a lot of curiosity just wanting to know what it would be like, and wondering what I’m missing out on by saying no. Ultimately I really do think that I just don’t have it in me to physically cheat, but I also won’t let my guard down
Limerent Emeritus says
LIS,
Here’s another one in the tl/dr department. https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-or-love-addiction/#comment-24612
“In 20 years as a married man, this is the first time another woman has straight up told me that she really wants to have sex with me. Hearing that from her, as well as revving up my hormones, also created a lot of curiosity just wanting to know what it would be like, and wondering what I’m missing out on by saying no.”
Yeah, that could mess with your head.
Lost in Space says
LE – yeah, it was a completely head trip. And it was always in the context of like “I feel so tempted when I’m around you but I know what a horrible thing it would be for your wife so we can’t let ourselves do it” or “it’s good you have such self control because I know if you made a move I wouldn’t be able to stop myself” or we’d talk on the phone and she’d tell me that she’d hate herself forever if she ever did anything with me, and then the next day she’d be in my office smiling, flirting, touching me, giving long hugs. My head was spinning constantly.
I don’t think she was intentionally messing with me or playing games with me – I think she was genuinely struggling between doing what she wanted and doing what was right. I believe this because I was doing the exact same thing, and for whatever reason we were both engaging in our internal struggles out loud with each other instead of keeping them internalized or talking to anyone else. We had dropped all mental boundaries with each other and adopted a policy of just telling each other everything in our heads, which made for pretty amazing conversations but was also really dangerous. For me, one of the biggest benefits of finding this website was to have someone other than her to share my thoughts and feelings with, because me and her had gotten into this loop of feeling distressing things, and then only being able to share them with each other, which deepened our bond and led to more distressing feelings…
We’d also engage in these long “what if” conversations that would start with her asking stuff like “what if something did happen between us? Would you hate me for it? Would you go tell your wife?”
I could never quite figure out her motive in these conversations, especially why she kept asking me if I’d tell my wife if we did end up getting physical. When I asked why she kept asking, she said she wanted to know if she’d have to expect my wife to come fight her, but I always suspected that what she really wanted to know was whether getting physical would mean that I’d tell my wife, thus blowing up my marriage, and thus paving the way for LO and I to be together in a real relationship. That’s something I’ll never really know though. (btw I always told her that I’d never tell my wife and would try to take that secret to my grave. I tried my best to never give her false hope that there was any chance I’d actually leave my wife for her)
And finally, the other layer to the onion was that she is still working through the trauma of her ex-husband having an affair with another woman a few years ago and never really coming clean to her about it, so I always wondered if part of her fascination with my thought processes was a way for her to sort of try and get inside of her ex’s head by proxy – like “I can’t understand what my ex husband was/is thinking, but here’s this other married guy with unfaithful thoughts who’s willing to let me inside his mind and tell me everything he’s thinking and feeling”. What a mess. I’m glad I found a good psychologist because I have a lot of work to do.
Limerent Emeritus says
LIS,
Two interesting things in your last post.
Your LO asking about if you’d tell your wife and if your wife would fight. Did you LO elaborate on that?
The other thing was your LO being cheated on by her husband and now she’s propositioning a married man? Ehh….
When I was in college, I told my father I was an affair partner [in different terms]. He asked some questions. He ended by saying, “Be careful. If she can cheat with you, she can cheat on you.”
So, if you do go the PA route, doesn’t that put you in the same bin as her ex? You could invoke the INWIDI [It’s Different
When I Do It] Defense but that seems to rarely work.
I’m convinced if I had pushed things with LO #4, she would have lost any respect for me that she might have had.
Your LO is assessing you. She may not know what she wants or why. A complicit LO is bad. A complicit LO that doesn’t know what they’re doing is way worse.
Lost in Space says
LE – Regarding your first question, again I took it as her trying to figure out if getting physical would mean I’d tell my wife and blow up my marriage for her, and that her line about wanting to know if she could expect a fight was just a cover. But on the other hand, it is possible that she really did want to know, as a practical matter, if my wife would jump her. Because in fact, LO told me that she did go to her ex husband’s affair partner’s house and fight that woman, and she does come from a rough background where that kind of stuff is pretty common. So yeah, maybe she really was just asking because she wanted to be prepared to get jumped. I’ll never know.
The crazy thing is that while my wife really isn’t the violent type, LO’s ex-husband, who actually seems to still be pretty involved in her life and still seems to feel a sense of ownership over her, is a lifelong gang member with a long history of violence – so I think I’d actually have a lot more to worry about from her SO than vice versa if we got discovered (there’s a TON of rescue fantasy material in that situation as well)
Regarding your other point, yeah, the cognitive dissonance is strong. I truly believe that she didn’t expect us to end up in this situation when she started coming to see me and texting me all the time, and that the feelings just kind of snuck up on her and took her by surprise. She’s told me many times that she feels really guilty about initiating the whole thing and disrespecting my wife by getting close to me. She’s also told me that she has some pretty significant self-esteem problems and never dreamed that I’d actually develop feelings for her, and that she just really liked me and was just hoping to enjoy spending time around me and get closer to me without it turning into anything more. I think I’m her LO1, and she thought the whole thing would just stay as a “friendship” with her having an undisclosed crush on a guy who liked her as a friend but didn’t have any mutual feelings. She seemed pretty shocked when I first told her about my feelings, and has continued to seem surprised by how strongly I feel for her as I’ve gotten to know her better, including her struggles and shortcomings.
Her prior experience with being betrayed has definitely played a big role in keeping us from ever getting physical. She can kind of justify the EA to herself (“we can’t help how we feel”), although she’s clearly uncomfortable with it. She can’t rationalize a PA to herself at all, which is why she keeps telling me how much she wants me but that she can’t let herself go there (which messes with my head a lot)
The weird thing is that she’s constantly telling me what a wonderful person I am, how I’m the best person she’s ever known, stuff like that – even though I’ve been emotionally betraying my SO with her every day and she knows first-hand how bad betrayal is. I think she blames herself for leading me to have my feelings (although in reality I was at least equally complicit), and is able to see me as virtuous based on the fact that I wrestle with my feelings and have resisted the worst of them, rather than just giving in to them and going for a full-on affair.
Regardless, at this point we’ve been largely NC for over 2 weeks now, largely driven by her. She hasn’t told me explicitly that she’s chosen to go NC nor why, but my guess is that the guilt finally got to be too much for her and she’s trying to put a stop to it for that reason. I know that would be the best possible ending to all of this – that way she gets to rescue some amount of self-respect from the situation by being the one to do the right thing and end it (plus she doesn’t have to feel like I rejected her), and I get to feel like it ended because she ultimately rejected the situation rather than rejecting me as a person.
Limerent Emeritus says
LIS,
Don’t overthink this.
She’s giving you an out.
Take it.
lowendj says
LIS,
Happened to me last week after a gig. Stopped me in my tracks. She was very attractive. I honestly gave it some thought, but declined because of marriage. Then I discovered she is 80. (Please don’t jump on me, I would have declined if she was 30) 🙂
Limerent Emeritus says
“Then I discovered she is 80.”
https://web.viu.ca/davies/H320/Franklin.advice.mistress.htm
I couldn’t resist…
I’m jealous. I was having coffee with the former coworker I was crushing on a few years back and she said, “The only reason a woman would make a serious pass at you was to see if she could get you to cheat.”
I told her that I didn’t see that a compliment. She said it wasn’t meant as a compliment, it was meant as a warning. She said a woman knows when a man is looking for trouble and I wasn’t. So, for a woman to make a determined effort to go after me, she was doing it for sport.
Nice to see you around.
Adam says
“Should you find that your crush is complicit
Please, try to avoid the explicit
No coyness or flirting
You might end up hurting
Or worse, take part in behavior illicit!”
Yeah I can relate to that. It’s too easy to do. You keep telling yourself that you are being there for them while pretending there isn’t something in it for you too. Denial isn’t just a river in Egypt.
Limerent Emeritus says
Adam,
“You keep telling yourself that you are being there for them while pretending there isn’t something in it for you too.”
The EAP counselor said that I had the best constructs of any client she ever had. There was nothing she asked that I didn’t have an answer for. I’d thought it all through. She took a positive delight in knocking the props right out from underneath me, which is what I needed.
One of her best was that when I said I wasn’t trying to change or manage them, I was trying to help them. The former was arrogant and narcissistic. The latter was altruistic and noble. It sounds way better. It keeps the cognitive dissonance down.
She said that I was using “narcissism under the guise of altruism.”
The EAP counselor wouldn’t let me get away with anything. I was lucky in that I had an EAP program and a counselor to hold me accountable through my LE/EA. It kept me from doing anything I’d really regret.
Adam says
The more I dwell on it, the more I think I was doing just as much of a disservice to LO as I did to my wife. And I told myself I was doing the selfless thing to justify it.
Limerent Emeritus says
“The more I dwell on it, the more I think I was doing just as much of a disservice to LO as I did to my wife.”
Maybe, maybe not. You may have no impact on your LO or you may have more than you’ll ever know.
LO #2 said some very nice things to me.
“I’m still a nurse today because of you.”
“You taught me how to stand up for myself. I’m grateful to you for that.” [Later, at our last meeting, she said, “You told me that I had the potential to go through life as a very unhappy person. I hate you for that.” It’s true, I had said that several years prior.]
“You didn’t always tell me what I wanted to hear but you always told me what I needed to hear.”
LO #4 said, “You opened up my eyes to what was happening in my relationship. I’ll be forever grateful to you.”
LO #4 used one of my blogs as the basis for a chapter in her book.
I know the last one is true. I read her book. I don’t know if the others are true. They said them. If they are true, I had a positive influence on them. If they’re not, it was still nice to hear.
If you were acting in good faith with your LO, what disservice did you do?
Adam says
“If you were acting in good faith with your LO, what disservice did you do?”
There is a line in a song about a man trying to move on from a woman that chose another man over him …
“The way that I feel is no longer your burden”
I feel like LO might have known the way I felt. That maybe my feelings for her were a burden she chose to bear out of the kindness of her heart.
What you said some time ago about how her behavior towards me became more friendly and loose once she was in a romantic relationship makes me think before that maybe she wasn’t sure what to do with my behavior in regards to her. Maybe I might have made her uneasy or uncomfortable. I don’t know because before and after she met him she was nothing be nice to me.
Like you said with your LO’s they could say what they said but can you really be sure that they really meant it? LO said a lot of nice things to me too, and I hope she meant them and didn’t think she needed to say things she didn’t mean. Perhaps 9 months of never reaching out to me is getting me to thinking about what was really going on between the two of us when she was here. Maybe I am just over thinking (which I do a lot) this whole situation and she is just living life and through no ill will I am just not a big part of it.
Outside of this whole rescue complex I really meant no disservice to her. I had no ulterior motive. I just wanted to help her de-stress from the current situations she was in at the time. But it is hard to determine with the limerence and all.
Limerent Emertus says
“Maybe I am just over thinking (which I do a lot) this whole situation and she is just living life and through no ill will I am just not a big part of it.”
Yeah, I’ve heard that before, too.
LO #4 started her goodbye with, “I’ve been thinking about this for several weeks. I wish you no ill will.” She was a master of nuance. At the end of that paragraph, she said, “I don’t think continuing to correspond would be appropriate.” She could have said that she liked me or it would be inappropriate to continue corresponding. But, she phrased it to include a band of indifference. Neither statement was positive, they just weren’t negative. That was the way she rolled with me. I tried to pin her down more but I never could. I don’t think she was indifferent. Blocking me on Facebook doesn’t indicate indifference. So does, “I’m flattered. Under different circumstances, I might even be curious. But, circumstances are what they are.”
But, maybe she was indifferent. In the end, it doesn’t matter. One of the EAP counselor’s favorite [and recurring] questions was,
“What would you do with that knowledge if you had it?” https://livingwithlimerence.com/if-i-only-knew/
“But it is hard to determine with the limerence and all.”
Limerence is a condition that seems to support the adages,
“Good intentions don’t always produce good results.”
“You shouldn’t be doing well what you shouldn’t be doing at all.”
If you can get a handle on limerence, it should go from “WHAT IF!?” to “What If?” to “what if..?” It’s not that I don’t think about my LOs, it’s those thoughts aren’t intrusive and aren’t influencing any decisions. If I could get them out of my head entirely, I wouldn’t be here.
I haven’t any contact with any of my LOs in years and it’s been over a year since my last social media drive by.
Influence is a function of effectiveness and access. With respect to limerence, effectiveness is the intensity of the glimmer. The brighter the glimmer, the more influence your LO will have on you. Glimmer is a very complex topic. The environment also plays a part. Access is self-explanatory.
Addressing any of them can be hard to pull off. For me, going NC was easy. It was doing the work to identify what the glimmer represented to eliminate the vulnerability that was the hardest. My marriage improved which reduced the incentive for me to seek distractions outside it. All the dominoes fell my way.
You’re moving in the right direction. Keep going!
Adam says
“What would you do with that knowledge if you had it?”
Whatever answer LO might have given me had I disclosed to her would have probably made the limerence worse. I’d feel more depressed that she didn’t like me or was indifferent to me or I would feel more depressed because she did have similar feelings but both or circumstances didn’t allow us to move on those feelings without very long reaching and devastating circumstances and hurting people we care about.
The post you linked helped think about the scenarios that could have happened if I tried to find closure with disclosure. I know I have already hurt one person with this information, I don’t want to put LO in a bad way because I can’t move on it. It’s been the one steady motivation that I have; letting her move on, because she WAS able to move on. No matter what our relationship was to her; co-worker, friend, or more, it doesn’t matter. Every effort I make is motivated by how what I say or do effects her life.
The thoughts aren’t intrusive much anymore. And that could be that there are other things in my life right now that are distracting me. But I still think of her and the “what ifs”. But they are not as bad as they were. So there is some progress there.
The glimmer was from emotional starvation at home. I didn’t really think about it then, and that’s probably why LO glimmered so bright. But as usual, in hindsight, I can see that clearly. I’ve talked to my wife about it again some weeks back that seemed to be a good conversation of understanding of each other in both our situations. Much better than former conversations. If anything I think my wife has transferred her anger from LO to me, and that’s what I want. I don’t want her to hate LO for something she didn’t intentionally do, and really didn’t do at all. It was me that decided to play the fool. LO is innocent. Maybe now the two of us can improve for each other without that obstacle between us. Which I have a feeling was a very big one for my wife to overcome. I may not understand why she did, but at least that part of it is over.
Limerent Emeritus says
“It was me that decided to play the fool.”
Song of the Thread: “Everybody Plays the Fool” – The Main Ingredient (1972)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_UM9AaUb4k
If LwL had a theme song, this might be it.
Adam says
The exact song I was thinking of when I typed that.
“Heaven on Earth is all you see
you’re out of touch with reality”
That’s limerence all right.
Adam says
Miss Lovisa Im having a really bad day. Im thinking of LO a lot. Im going to lay with momma shes asleep on the couch. Ill sit on the floor and lay my head in her lap. I woke up at 2:30 this morning with intrusive thoughts. I dont know why these two women do this to me. Why cant i love them both?
Limerent Emeritus says
Don’t sweat it.
Song of the Day: “Mama Said” – The Shirelles (1961)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iUnsp47XhU
It happens.
Lovisa says
You can love them both. You can love a lot of people. Love is unselfish. It means you put the wants and needs of your loved ones ahead of yourself.
If your body is tired, it’s a good idea to rest with Momma. If you’re not tired, go outside and play, walk or do some yard work. Maybe it’s time to get back into running. It’s a wonderful mood booster. You can spend all that running time processing your thoughts. Runners frequently find answers to their problems while on a run. Seriously, I think you should give it a try. Listen to your body and carefully push yourself into the zone between comfortable and crazy. That is where the magic happens. Or you could start with low heart rate running. Wouldn’t that be awesome?!? I think low heart rate running would be good for you. Look up MAF running on YouTube. See if you can talk yourself into it. It is awkward at first (just being honest), but the benefits are incredible.
So… about my running. I finally scheduled an appointment with a physical therapist to help my knee. It’s in two weeks so I’m using a physical therapist’s YouTube video to stretch and strengthen my knee for now. I also took almost two weeks off of running. It is torture. I did a half marathon two days ago to test my progress and a theory. I think I got my overuse injury because I run at a steady pace almost the whole time. I think I should change up my pace and running form on long runs so I change up which body parts absorb the pressure. I noticed that my knee hurts when I run between a 10 to 13 minute pace, but it doesn’t seem effected if I run faster than a 10-minute mile or slower than a 13-minute mile. So for my half marathon, I tried to stay out of that 10-13 minute mile zone. I did the whole thing without pain medication and I haven’t taken a pain pill since, which is really promising. I think if I continue to stay out of that range, I can run while my knee heals without causing more damage. I also noticed that I couldn’t even do one mile if I ran in that uncomfortable range without hurting my knee. So each time my knee started complaining, I either ran faster or slowed down. It worked! Yay! I will probably go running today.
Seriously, if you try it, I want to hear about it.
Adam says
L.E. I havent thought about that song in a while. But damn such good harmonizing. Motown music really knew how to nail that. Where every member played a part in the finished product.
Miss Lovisa I try to balance that; my love for Momma and LO. Trying to love two women without internal guilt is something new to me. I feel like each’s love is betraying the other.
Im thinking to get a bike this spring (presently) and starting out with that. Im 180 lbs and would like to shed a few. And i think biking would be a good gateway to running. Plus i think it would be easier on my heart with the afib and all than running. But yeah i remember the running highs.
You let that knee heal Miss Lovisa! Dont you go hurting it again. I know you like running but if you damage it too bad than youll never get to run again. Maybe take your husband on a nice leasuirly walk together. Hold his hand and show him off to all passerby’s. Id bet gold that’d make him soar.
Im so thankful for you too and everyone else for helping me through this. Now, then and in the future.
Lovisa says
“Trying to love two women without internal guilt is something new to me.”
Adam, you aren’t sleeping with both of them. You are loving one from a distance and one up close. If you do it appropriately, you can love lots of people. You love both of your boys and it’s totally fine, right? I’m talking about boundaries. Definitely give your devotion to SO. I don’t know if men can divide their devotion between two women so make sure that stays with Momma.
You were right about not running. I read your message before I went out and you persuaded me to ask SO if he wanted to do something with me. He prefers cycling so we rode our bikes up and down a beautiful canyon. It was awesome!!!! Thanks for redirecting me. SO has a fancy bike and he used to ride a lot so he is way better at riding than me. My heart was 30 beats higher than his whenever we compared, lol. I got a kick-butt workout and it was more like a Sunday stroll for him. Oh well, he didn’t complain. It’s funny because we are the opposite when we run together. He struggles and I feel like it’s slow. Hmmm, neither of us are swimmers. We should see what happens if we try swimming together. Hmmmm, that should take pressure off my knee. Now you have me thinking, Adam.
I love that you are thinking about sports. Please keep me updated as you try new things. Have you been walking lately? I want to hear about it.
Adam says
Miss Lovisa
Momma and I are watching a movie and holding hands together. Im so happy.
And good on biking. Your husband I bet really enjoyed ir.
Lovisa says
That’s cute, Adam. Thank you for sharing. I didn’t know holding hands was so important to husbands until you mentioned it. We went to a play tonight and I initiated a lot of hand holding. He seemed pleased. Thanks for the tip.
My SO rubs my back or arm or whatever when we watch shows. I love it! There’s a tip for you.
Black hole says
Limerence: A word that I had never heard until it turned my life upside down a year ago. I had never realized the power of the unconscious mind to this extent
Are we victims of our past? Our traumas? Our ignorant parents?
In my 28 years of life, I suffered a lot until I was certain that I saw the deepest part of hell until a year ago when I realized what the true meaning of the deepest part of hell is.
Do we really have souls? Or it is just the creation of our cowardly sick mind? But something crushed in me, I think it was my soul…
I was always looking for humanity and service to humanity, am now one step away from betraying my SO, the one to whom I owe my short sweet and peaceful life.
About a year ago, I realized that my boss is so protective towards me and has feelings for me. Ohhh his long intense eye contact…I realized that I couldn’t look into his eyes, as if I was seeing a galaxy spinning in his eyes.
Then my limerent brain started to think of him and fantasize a romantic relationship with him 24/7. I am not saying that I am a complete innocent person, since I knew that I was effecting him deeply with my appearance. Although I always cared about my dress, beauty and body, but after I realised he has feelings, I obsessed about my appearance and tried to show the best of myself to him. But I am sure that he started this suicidal game with his eyes.
He wanted to be the prince with the white horse who would save a damsel in distress from the calamity, but he drowned me in the calamity itself. I did not disclose and suffered in my silence, and whenever he looked at me, I ran away.
I changed my job a moved a month ago since I couldn’t endure the pain of not having him anymore. When he found out that I was leaving, he got confused.. sad … angry… I didn’t disclose to protect myself, him, my SO, his SO and children from this madness. But I hurt him so badly, what if he was limerent too? I wish he was not.
This is a special kind of mental illness. I was never interested in having sex with someone not even with my husband, I don’t understand myself now, as if I am dying to have sex with my LO. I have never been a needy woman, I always pretend to be strong and self sufficient but I like the feeling that I need him, because I know subconsciously he wants me to need him, and ask for his help.
I want him. I want to belong to him. I miss his eyes, the galaxy in his eyes…
I feel that I have his energy in my cells. Am I getting delusional? I talk to him in my head, I feel like I can feel his feelings? I can know when he thinks of me.
Will I feel like this forever? Why do we have to live so long? Will I feel it until I’m 80 or 90 years old?
Anna says
You did the right thing by leaving your job. Going No Contact with him is the first step.
Oh! It’s hard! Do yourself a big favor and read as many posts here as you can, it really helps!
Limerence just seems to hit you like a ton of bricks, when you least expect it.
It happened to me out of the blue, so I can relate to what you are going through
What most of us realize after a while is that Limerence for someone else actually means that there is something that you are lacking in your life, mostly emotional.
For example: childhood trauma, unfulfilled marriage, low self-esteem etc
A lot of us have an unhealthy attachment style (anxious attachment)
Please be aware that you will most likely go through a process with this
But it’s gonna be OK!
You have come to the right place.
Black hole says
Thanks Anna, I Appreciate Your Thoughts and Support.
I have been reading the articles and posts related to Limerence for a while, and as you said, I also relate it to childhood trauma.
I have been through a lot in my life and had ignorant, narcissistic and selfish parents. Of course I don’t blame them for what they did to me since they were the victims of their pasts too. I had to fight for everything in my life but fighting with myself was the hardest thing I had ever done.
Now I know that I can’t fight with Limerence, I have to accept it as an illness and live with it.
Sometimes I regret that I didn’t disclose to my LO, but I couldn’t be selfish. I couldn’t be disloyal and dishonest with my SO. I didn’t want him to cheat his SO. I didn’t want to create a childhood trauma for his children. I know that I couldn’t. I prefer to suffer in silence for the rest of my life.
frederico says
I am very sorry for what you are going through, Black hole. I do not think you will need to suffer in silence for the rest of your life. Limerence is tough (it is not generally considered to be a mental illness) and going No Contact can certainly be grim and painful. You have been brave and wise to change your job. It may take a while but you will gradually feel better.
We are all in very similar boats, it seems.
Black hole says
Thank you Frederico, for your comment and words.
It’s good that limerents understand each other. I feel better now but I know my mood will change in an hour and I will cry for missing the deepest pain in my life.
I wish happiness and peace for all of us.
MaryM says
I am about nine months into an LE with a work colleague. We are both early 40s. I have been married for 18 years; he is a lifelong bachelor. He’s experienced a lot of trauma in recent years – losing a parent, the death of several close friends/roommates, his core friend group largely dismantled. When I met him, he wouldn’t even make eye contact. He used to stand sideways when we talked. Over the months, I’ve gained his trust and consider him a good friend. (Yes, I know I can’t be a very good friend right now. That’s largely with this post is about.) We have a small office of about five people, and we work together almost constantly. I have a great marriage, and I disclosed to my SO immediately after I experienced the glimmer. LO doesn’t flirt, and I’ve never gotten any physical indications of attraction. A couple of weeks ago, I casually mentioned turning down another work opportunity. The next day he told me that it scared him and he didn’t want me to leave, told me that he couldn’t do his job without me. This was really out of character for him, and I could tell he put a lot of thought into whether or not to say it, and what he wanted to say. Admittedly intoxicating in the moment, but not conclusive on the attraction question. I have a regular therapist and accountability with my SO. I feel comfortable continuing pretty much as is, but I am concerned that this might be detrimental to him if he does feel attraction. I am empathic by nature, and a good listener, but I don’t want to lead him on if he potentially sees me as more than a friend. I’ve considered disclosing and letting him decide if he wants to continue the friendship. (Of course I want to disclose, so it’s difficult for me to pick the motives apart.) Any insights or advice?
Lovisa says
Welcome to our club, MaryM. Your story is interesting. Kudos to you and your SO that you were able to talk to him about your LE.
It sounds like you are thinking about disclosing your feelings to your LO. I feel strongly that it is never a good idea to disclose attraction to someone if either of you is in a committed relationship. I understand the desire to disclose is intense. Hopefully you can withstand the temptation and keep things at the friend level. If you disclose, you have no control over what happens next. And if he reciprocates, life gets really complicated. I believe it is in everyone’s best interest if you keep your feelings of attraction to yourself.
I know it’s hard. Good luck!
MaryM says
I really appreciate your encouragement, Lovisa. You make some really compelling points. I especially keep zoning in on “And if he reciprocates…” when I read this. I am so anxious for relief in this phase that I don’t think I’ve allowed myself to fully acknowledge all the ways this could go (wrong).
Lost in Space says
Hi MaryM! Your situation sounds a lot like mine – I’m also a married person in my early 40s who is limerent for a co-worker. I disclosed my feelings for her rather impulsively back in December, and she told me that she felt the same way. It felt amazing for like 30 seconds, and then we both realized we were totally screwed. Because once we’d both disclosed mutual feelings, there was no way to just keep on pretending to be friends, so our only choices were to cut contact or continue in (at least) an emotional affair. For several months, we oscillated between the two options – we’d agree that cutting contact was best, then we’d both feel so heartbroken that we’d start talking again, then things would heat up so much it would almost turn physical, then we’d cut contact again, and so on. Now we’re finally into week 3 of very limited contact and I miss her so badly. And the whole thing has been pretty terrible, with lots of tumultuous emotions (some exhilaration, a lot more anxiety and heartbreak) and ultimately I’ve lost the initial friendship with her as well. I’m just fortunate that we didn’t cross any irrevocable lines and my marriage is still intact. But damn, there’s been a lot of pain and heartbreak after disclosure.
So as usual, my advice to most anyone would be that if you’re both single and there are no other significant barriers, then disclose away! But if one or both of you are married, please resist that temptation and keep those feelings to yourself – disclosing can lead to some pretty awful outcomes. In my case, the BEST case scenario after disclosure was that only me and LO would get our hearts broken with no innocent people harmed, so I sincerely hope that you’re able to avoid ending up in that same spot.
Lovisa says
MaryM, I can’t think of any ways that disclosing to your LO could go right. I think I have the ideal situation with my LO3 and it is hard sometimes. We are post-disclosure (because he disclosed), my SO knows and I am still allowed contact with LO3. We both have high standards and we’re both committed to our spouses. The high standards are the reason we can pull this off, and I rarely see my LO in person. You see yours regularly. One moment of weakness post-disclosure and you lose your happy marriage. Yikes. Please don’t disclose to LO.
Adam says
Mary
Your story is very familiar. I tend to have read too much into LOs behavior and words thinking they were more than they were. While the contemplation to disclose to LO came up in my head I mostly realized that it wouldn’t be fair to her to put this burden on her.
I realize that is different for you. But if he does have an attraction to you that he doesn’t seem to articulate in a straight forward way it may be because he is pulling back out of respect for your marriage. Disclosing to him would be a heavy burden to bear knowing you feels similarly but he doesn’t want to be a home wrecker.
In another post, poster Limmy, articulated very well about how differently many men and women respond differently to attention from the opposite sex. And if your LO is lonely as you said than reading more into the two of you’s interactions is going to be hard for him not to do. Part of my issues with LO was that instead of addressing concerns of my marriage to my wife I got caught up in the attention of LO. Not saying that’s your issue too. Just trying illustrate how the right conditions in our lives can make us more susceptible to glimmer and LE.
I am happy to say that LO is now in a very healthy relationship with another man that can provide, protect and preside to her and her daughters after a bad divorce. I realize now what I did to LO (and obviously my wife) was unfair for how much ever she realized I felt. Finally in the end I did the right thing. I let her go.
I love this song more and more every time I hear it.
Let Her Go — Passenger
https://youtu.be/RBumgq5yVrA
MaryM says
Thanks, Adam. I appreciate your thoughtful response. Especially what you shared in the last paragraph. So hard and so complicated.
MaryM says
Adam, do you know which post contains the comment you referenced from Limmy? TIA
Adam says
Mary
I had forgotten that the discussion was more about the biological differences in men and women and how when limerence sets in that men and women get hit with different glimmers and typically different LO’s But it was an interesting conversation. I also had forgotten that Miss Lovisa and made a great comment in the discussion too.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/new-year-purpose/#comment-38129
https://livingwithlimerence.com/new-year-purpose/#comment-38133
https://livingwithlimerence.com/new-year-purpose/#comment-38255
https://livingwithlimerence.com/new-year-purpose/#comment-38268
All of it is in the “New Year Purpose” blog post. (The first post I started commenting in.)