One of the recurrent themes that comes up when trying to make sense of a difficult limerent object, is the concept of narcissism.
It’s quite satisfying if you’ve been ensnared by a self-centered LO to diagnose them as a narcissist. You can look at their conduct, realise how they played on your emotions and drew you into an obsessive infatuation, and conclude that they are personality disordered and you were an unhappy victim.
While this isn’t a very purposeful approach to the situation – in the sense of focusing on how you contributed to the problem and what you can control – it is important to understand how your LO has influenced events and leveraged your psychological vulnerabilities.
Unfortunately, there is a large grey area here between the everyday narcissism that most people exhibit, and actual Narcissistic Personality Disorder. That makes it difficult to contextualise your own experience. Is LO really disordered, or are you just focusing on the times they were narcissistic in a general sense and leaping to unfair conclusions?
On that point, I recently came across this helpful video, in which Dr Ramani Durvasula outlines narcissism and draws a distinction between clinical NPD and everyday narcissism.
Interestingly, she claims that narcissism as a personality trait has greatly increased over the recent past, and is impacting on many more of our relationships than most people realise.
A sobering thought.
Anyway: I found it helpful for understanding narcissism and love, and she’s an excellent speaker.
As a mixed blessing, she has also created a huge number of videos and courses online, so that’s a new rabbit hole to fall down…
All, it’s been awhile since I’ve posted. This gives me pause, because I was thinking in the classic scenario of an LO narcissist. I think I have gone forward with purposeful living, but the video threw some light on friends who are constantly negative with their attempt to draw me into their self-sabotaging drama. Intentional or not, I have one of those that I’ve recently put some distance between us.
“Interestingly, she claims that narcissism as a personality trait has greatly increased over the recent past, and is impacting on many more of our relationships than most people realise.”
That applies to people with limerence every bit as much as they like to apply it to others.
do you mean apply their ” limerence” to others.. perhaps a future topic to explore
My former LO had narcissistic tendencies imo, although I don’t think much about that disorder. It is on retrospect that I saw it, but I believe he was more insecure/arrogant and with a misogynistic social conditioning. He had had a lot of football concussions when he was a kid/teen playing, and in those days they sent you back out to play, so there is that. Once I allowed a boundary invasion by allowing him to look at me in a disrespectful (lustful) way, it was all over and he knew he had me. If I got tired of his crap and ignored him, he would beg and act like a martyr or lost puppy, only to bigtime reject me again.
I am so glad I know what limerence is! Dr. L, you have helped shine a light on a problem I have thrown so much time, money, energy and effort into solving! Thank you. Now, when I feel limerence coming on, I hate to say it, but I remove myself from the situation. I make sure I don’t get into long commitments where I can’t leave a group.
Also….I noticed when I was married to my 1st and 2nd husbands, I did not feel limerence until years into the marriage and after a lot of betrayals. Otherwise, I didn’t experience it at all.
Regards
I really enjoy Dr. Ramani’s videos. I think she is a very good speaker.
I think the main difference between non-narcissistic people who are LOs and narcissistic people who are LOs is that the narcissistic people would probably derive guilt-free enjoyment from the attention they get from the limerent.
A narcissistic LO may lap up the attention, in other words. and knowingly or unknowingly reinforce the whole “person addiction”.
Bottom line: a narcissistic person is going to keep giving the limerent party what could be interpreted as signs of hope – possibly indefinitely.
Can an LO show some narcissist behavior without it being consciously malicious? I imagine so. I think my LO does this. As I withdraw from her in LC she will up her frequency of texting me to to gain my attention. Her texts usually are just a meme, a brief thought about something or a pic of something that relates to a discussion we have had. If I engage back in a more conversational manner she won’t reciprocate. She will just emoji me back or text is very short thought fragments. Her texting to me is like she is running up to me, poking me, and running off giggling.
I honestly don’t understand it as I tend to be a conversational person and her texting patterns just frustrate me. I can only come to the conclusion that she is either relationally immature and this is her superficial way of communicating or she is actively seeking my attention in a narcissistic way knowing I have romantic feelings for her.
@Ryan
You’ve mentioned she is a lot younger than you? Younger people do tend to have a different style of texting, I’ve noticed. “Conversational” is more the exception than the norm.
Whatever her motivation, she is putting up definite boundaries and letting you know exactly how much she is willing to do/give.
I don’t think this is an age thing as I experience a lot of the same behavior with my LO who is well into her late forties.
She is pretty responsive to phone calls but her texting behavior with me is almost inexplicable to me. But I think while there is some narcissism involved in her behavior I think a lot of it is that she has a fearful avoidant personality type and is pretty insecure.
What I’ve kind of concluded is that she views a text from me as putting her in control of the situation and allowing her to respond when she is ready. Phone calls are more immediate and have substance to them.
” letting you know exactly how much she is willing to do/give.”
And maybe all she is willing to give is a meme-worth of emotion – I would try to use that by seeing it as the death of hope or end of uncertainty.
I would see it as trying to string you along and use that narrative to get some angrier reactions to gain some power back. For example, next time she texts you a meme, just don’t reply and see her reaction. Will she follow up because you don’t respond? Will she send another one shortly after? Will she question why you don’t reply? Your “excuse” can always be, sorry couldn’t reply in that moment and then forgot…
And don’t take this the wrong way, I think it would be my way to gain power back, as now, she holds the power, she texts when she wants, she stops the conversation when she wants.
I totally agree about the power dynamic. She has it all. That is the problem with an LO. We have a tendency to hand all the power over to them because we are so excited they are responding at all.
If I were Ryan, I’d send a text saying something like, “The pics and memes and quick texts are nice, but I’d really like to talk to you. How’s your holiday going? What do you have planned?” (Or something like that. And put a little smiley face to let her know you aren’t mad and your tone isn’t angry.) Maybe share what you have planned for Turkey Day. A couple of sentences. And from that point on, I’d only respond to actual conversation. Any memes or pics would be greeted with silence. You can decide about the short texts, but if too many of her responses are pretty clipped, that also may be something to respond to with silence.
Let her know YOUR boundaries. If she wants attention, she’ll have to give/do a little more. This isn’t all about her and what she wants.
“I’d send a text saying something like, “The pics and memes and quick texts are nice, but I’d really like to talk to you. How’s your holiday going? What do you have planned?” ”
Hmm, this feels more like a relationship-type message (which carried an assumption something *more* is owed) … if I got this from a “normal” friend, I’d be a little creeped out, tbh, and think, wth? If I don’t enjoy a friend’s txts, I cease to reply to them, don’t give it a second thought, and the contact through that medium dies a natural death.
I think such a reply would in fact show the LO that they mean so much to you that you respond by begging them to talk to you … more? I thought Ryan was trying to stop his LE, not create some more back and forth.
Limmy,
“Hmm, this feels more like a relationship-type message (which carried an assumption something *more* is owed) … if I got this from a “normal” friend, I’d be a little creeped out,”
Huh? Really? I think it’s pretty basic conversation. It’s hardly personal. He’s making conversation about her holiday. The only thing more impersonal would be talking about the weather. The only thing being asked for is a text with some actual sentences and not pics or memes. Seems like a pretty reasonable request for a friendship.
“I thought Ryan was trying to stop his LE, not create some more back and forth.”
Well, that you’d have to ask him. The only way to truly stop an LE is to not contact her at all and block her texts.
I don’t initiate texting with her. Have not for months. I am following strict LC with her. I see her and talk with her only at the office. But as I withdraw she will send me these random texts with more regularity.
She does not have all the control. I am exerting control by practicing LC and not texting. And I am certainly not looking to get into some texting game with her because the moment I do it just frustrates me because of her texting style.
Texting is just a weird conversational dynamic with her. I prefer to stay away from it. It never goes how I imagine it will.
@Sarah
I have thought not to text back…but I always feel like that is playing games so I end up acknowledging her text. But when I feel the conversation starting to fizzle I usually preemptively sign off first.
Yeah, that would be a game, and I’d do it if I noticed that I feel out of control, to gain some control back (i.e. you wanna play games with me, two can do that…) it would be that kind of mental state… however, clearly not the best way to react.
I think what you do is spot on, LC, it seems to work for you. I think there’s only s need to change for you if you feel that you need to get further away from LO, like if you are not ok with how the situation is. Other than that, you have to feel comfortable with the situation.
Hello all, first time commenting here. I’m interested in finding a pen-pal or sorts who believes they have an LO who is narcissistic or a narcissist. I’m in a fit of limerence over an ex of sorts from over 25 years ago. I have a fairly complex relationship with them that is technically an active friendship, and would appreciate comparing notes to help sort out my decisionmaking. If you are interested perhaps we can connect via some safe social media or WhatsApp or the like? Thank you.
I believe that my former LO might be a narcissist, to what extent clinically or otherwise is a harder question.
The whole fake name ie initial of the name then fake name of the same first letter.
The claim to be in an Open Relationship when engaged and or into a marriage.
The pictures/photos that don’t show up in Reverse image search, suggests a layer of secrecy.
Does this point to narcissism?
Hello again. First comment, I can’t figure out how to “join” this community to get access to the chat rooms, etc, can someone direct me?
Second, relevant to the narcissism topic, I wonder if anyone else has had an experience of intentionally trying to park a relationship in the crystalization stage? Does this feel like a narcissists tactic? I have an LO from my 20s who was just passing through town and we spent a wonderful, romantic month together. At the end of it, we elected to try to maintain this perfect image of one another rather than to pursue something long distance. It was a mutual decision but, mostly theirs. I think. It was all 28 years ago. In any event, did I *ever* set myself up!!! I spent most of a year in deep limrence, in a really complex timeline involving their sudden marriage and equally sudden divorce 18 months later. I’d recovered from that long ago but, saw them recently and was shocked to find my heart (eg lizard brain) could still exert strong feelings for them.
I’m really interested in sharing details of my correspondence with this LO over the years to get others’ reactions. In general, I feel they don’t compare with other full-on narcissists I’ve known, but I was mercilessly trapped in the FriendZone for a long time and was never even fully released. (I just finally let myself out recently.) Thanks.
-Eric
In one of Dr. L’s recent post, he announced that he will soon shut down the forum he started and managed since a couple of years ago. He will mainly focus on his writing on this site and upcoming books, as well as one-on-one coaching for limerence recovery.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/cultivating-purpose/
With the help of many people in the old forum community, we’ve decided to move soon to a community-created forum called Limerence Forums.
https://limerenceforums.com/
It’s a bit small and quiet right now, but we’re expecting that it will slowly pick up once the old forum is officially closed indefinitely starting at the end of December.
I believe more often Limerence continues or is strengthened with hope, intermittent reinforcement, seductive breadcrumbs, hot and cold behavior (platonic to sexual to emotional to romantic to platonic etc).
Yes, perhaps the “fantasy” we project on limerence object is one sided – but I found that “narcissistic types” (players, sex addicts, validation addicts, sociopaths etc) – people who are not necessarily evil or disordered are the WORST type of LO
WHY? Because they WANT YOU to want them – even if they do not want you back. It’s just the breeding ground for intense lust, arousal and powerful addiction – the dangling of the carrot, the mind fucking, getting in your head and playing to your deepest desires that they are FULLY aware about.
MOST people would FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE OR CREEPED OUT receiving pedestal attention as a Limerent Object – but people who LOVE POWER, CONTROL, ATTENTION, VALIDATION (or narcissistic types to personality disordered types) – EMBRACE and welcome people worshiping, adoring them without giving much in return.
WHO CAN RELATE? !
Yikes Steve. It sounds like you are struggling with a nasty LE.
When I realized that my LO1 had seduced me intentionally and that he seduced many other women, I was angry, too. I’m not so angry anymore. I kind of pitty him.
yes – i hear you about the pitty part. seductive flirty types seem to have this magical magnetism that makes them highly desirable – they know how to get anyone and everyone to love them, want them, feel addicted to or obsessed with them – so they seem to have this super power – but the pity part is that it also comes from a place of insecurity / a need or a drive that gets them high but empty at the same time. i don’t relate – the idea of being pursued or having sex with people i’m not attracted to is something i just can’t bring myself to do – but some of these LO types are able to do that for power, control or validation
I ended up disclosing to my LO about a month back. She acted shocked, and claims she only feels friendship towards me. I kind of figured it might creep her out and she would distance herself from me yet as of now she acts more warm and friendly towards me than ever. Go figure?!?
see that’s the tricky part – for some people they KNOW you like them and will find ways to – consciously or unconssciously – keep you hooked, and wanting more. it would be hard to discern if she developed feelings in return or if she is secretly loving the fact that you like her. PERSONALLY i no longer remain friends with people i want to have sex or a relationship with – especially if they know i want more OR if they text me thirst trap / naked pics while saying they just want to be “friends” – i don’t consider it immature or not evolved of me to “stay friends” in a losing situation like that – i consider it the new self care and way to stay sane
My situation is tricky. She is my employee, I am 14 years older than her, she has told me I am a role model to her, she is in a disappointing marriage with a husband who struggles to support his family properly while I am highly successful in all areas of my life with career and family. I can tell she had some degree of affection for me still despite my attraction, yet she is not willing to ever give back any emotionally reciprocation to me. She receives because I am willing to give. I need to stop giving because it takes it toll on me. I think she is a passive narcissist.
But I 100% agree that the little crumbs of attention she gives me and the general warm and affectionate disposition she has towards me keeps my limerence on overdrive. I manage, but I am not beating it.
Steve.
“I don’t consider it immature or not evolved of me to “stay friends” in a losing situation like that – i consider it the new self care and way to stay sane”
Totally agree. You’re also respecting yourself. Letting the other person know you won’t be used to their need for validation. You won’t be breadcrumbed along. If they just want to be friends, that’s fine, but you’ll exit stage left so you can find someone who wants more. I suppose it could be different if they said they just wanted to be friends and then they actually proceeded to act like a friend, i.e. NOT sending you nude pics. But if they are playing games like that, forget it.
“yet as of now she acts more warm and friendly towards me than ever. Go figure?!?”
Well, you were authentic with her. You displayed vulnerability by disclosing. That can make people feel closer to you.
Women’s feelings change more rapidly than men’s. She could be thinking that you are over it.
“MOST people would FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE OR CREEPED OUT receiving pedestal attention as a Limerent Object – but people who LOVE POWER, CONTROL, ATTENTION, VALIDATION (or narcissistic types to personality disordered types) – EMBRACE and welcome people worshiping, adoring them without giving much in return.”
I really feel for you Steve, your situation sounds very painful. But for balance I must give an alternative perspective…
Does finding pleasure in being adored by someone nice, that you really like, though not quite enough to act, make you a terrible person?
I would not be creeped out by that, I would find it sweet, flattering and validating. I would instinctively feel warmth towards a man that cares for and looks out for me. But I am certainly no narcissist, just a regular person.
Obviously in some cases LOs are narcissists (maybe yours), but I suspect not nearly as often as limerent’s like to believe they are. Our behaviour and feelings towards LO is our choice, they did not ask us for it.
Personally, really flirty, charming types leave me cold. They make me feel good for a short while but then the realisation dawns that their charm is generic, for everyone, and not about me at all. Instead it is their subconscious way of smoothing their way way through life. This type is not for me at all… they tend to be self centred which is a trait I find unattractive. I remind myself of this every time I feel their flirty charm trying to pull me back in… it is not about me… it is not about me… it is not about me…
I need to have this tattooed on my body somewhere, as my LO archetype is definitely the charming, confident type: “their charm is generic, for everyone, and not about me at all. Instead it is their subconscious way of smoothing their way way through life.” Also, when I am feeling rage at my LO for his mixed signals: “in some cases LOs are narcissists (maybe yours), but I suspect not nearly as often as limerent’s like to believe they are. Our behaviour and feelings towards LO is our choice, they did not ask us for it.” In fact, I think I need a mini-Allie to carry around in my pocket with me. I can learn so much from you and your experience.
thanks Allie for your perspective – to your point, not everyone who enjoys flattery or attention that’s not fully recipcorcrated is evil or narssistici – for example, a celebrity has lots of fans but the celebrity doesn’t feel the same way about each fan (they probably don’t even know the fan’s names) . I think that people who are string along bread crumbs act consciously or unconsciously and sometimes their motivations are benign. unfortunately, i was in two situations where there was a lot of mixed signals, intrigue, flirting, sexting, fooling around, and blurring boundaries while still being called a “friend” – and it was by other gay guys who somehow was able to make men and women fall for them – it was their skill and unfortunately i got sucked into it and fooled – twice! but hopefully never again
RELATE!!!
During the first contact with my LO I KNEW he was either a) A Narc or B) Borderline.
Even tho I suspected this,he had me at Hello.
I treated him like a god! (I’m cringing right now thinking about my behavior with him)
Basically he got what he wanted/needed (praise, validation, attention etc.)
But I got what I needed/wanted too.
Two totally different reasons for the both of us.
Uggg..what a conundrum!
First off, I am incredibly happy to have found this website and all of the resources available. I’ve felt so alone in this for a full year and finally have a group who I can relate to sooo much.
I’ve been married for about 3 years, and I went on a trip to Costa Rica last year with some other family members (SO couldn’t make it). I met someone there and we hit it off really well and exchanged Whatsapp secretly. I didn’t really think it would go anywhere, but I fell deeply obsessed with him, and I’ve only learned recently that it was complete limerence.
This will sound very bad, but we’ve been romantically talking for about a year, and he has no idea that I’m married, and no one knows that I’m talking to him either. It’s been a bit of a struggle to secretly find time to video chat with him all while being married as well and keeping secrets on both sides. I have not been back to see him but I’ve been wanting to.
Meanwhile, during that time, I’ve discovered that he was also seeing multiple women at the same time. This completely destroyed me, and he’s apologized profusely and reassured me that it will never happen again. We’re both extremely jealous people and he’s been extremely toxic as well and very possessive (despite also being a huge cheater and liar to multiple people). I realize that I’m not any better because of what I’m doing to both him and my SO.
Fast forward, I’ve tried blocking him 3 times, unsuccessfully, and a week was the longest, which felt like an eternity. I initially would feel relief, but the anxiety and depression kick in and I give in because I end up missing him.
I seeked a therapist a few weeks ago to help me get over him and move on, since I can’t talk to anyone else about this, however her advice didn’t really help me (taking breaths, going for walks and going NC).
I’m glad I found this group and am currently in the depression and missing him like crazy stage. I haven’t spoken to him in almost a week. I’m fighting the urge to go see him in real life.
My LO is a classic narcissist. He posts selfies everyday across social media, for which he always received constant validation in the comments about how hot he was. On one of those questionnaires on Facebook, he listed his only red flag as being “too sexy and hot to handle.” He took selfies in front of signs that said “hot hot hot” and “hello gorgeous.” He posts everyday on social media of him at work, on a walk, seeing a movie, whatever as if it were the most exciting thing to see him do. You might think that would be obnoxious, but it seems everyone fell over themselves to worship him. This has made NC much easier because he does not communicate with people who are not conventionally attractive and/or don’t repeatedly compliment his appearance. He is beautiful, but recognizing his overt narcissism has also lessened the duration of my LE.
Another very valuable blog post thank you Dr L.
This excellent video refers to the characterises of narcissistic abuse – Chronic invalidation, Lack of respect, Lack of mutuality, and Cold indifference.
I felt all of these with my LO – I’m not sure if they were narcissistic (they certainly did not have narcissistic pd) OR it was their neuro-divergency that made me feel all of these things. It’s only in retrospect that I see it more clearly – although I do remember during the relationship with LO that I thought maybe my friendship was transactional. Certainly they were intolerant to disappointment and did not show empathy in a way that I could detect – it may have been expressed in some other way.
I tended to blame myself for finding myself in the very unexpected and mind-bending LE – alas, this post along with MANY others on this site have helped me process it all and realise that limerence is multi-factorial and as Dr L has said, a life-quake that can facilitate growth.
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