Time for another visit to the virtual coffeehouse, to put the world to rights and engage in a bit of light hearted banter with friends.
Today’s topic for conversation is limerence recovery. From time to time I get email from people who have visited the site, read the book, and had an epiphany about how limerence has shaped their romantic lives over the years. All the solutions I outline make sense, the LwL philosophy resonates with them, and they can clearly see what needs to be done to recover. But…
It isn’t working. They believe it all intellectually, but it’s making little impact on their emotional response to LO. They can be full of good intentions, but find themselves helpless when next exposed to limerent temptation.
I’ve read all your guides, but I just can’t get my limerence under control. I’ve had some success, but it always comes back.
To an extent this is just another example of the very human tendency to default to what feels emotionally painless rather than what we know should be done. An issue of discipline. But I do also think that limerence is a special case. It really does alter our cognitive performance and distort our judgement.
So, what might be the barriers that prevent recovery? Why do we struggle to do the things that will almost certainly work?
While I suspect we will all have our own personal vulnerabilities and limitations, there are some common barriers that everyone faces – some features of limerence that make it hard to get past the emotional resistance that stops us breaking out of the reinforcing cycle.
- We want to fail. If I fail, I get to wallow in the lovely, warm, familiar LO-infatuation for a bit longer. Aaahhhh.
- Pride. There is something real between us, and I’m gonna prove it.
- Trusting intuition too much. Anaemic rationality can be the wrong approach for making big life decisions, and limerence feels very right (at first).
- Cues. The world is full of reminders of them.
- Demoralisation. If the future seems grim, with little to look forward to, limerence is an emotional escape.
- Relapses. Setbacks hit hard. It feels like all progress is lost.
So, those are some of the biggest issues off the top of my head. What do others think?
What are the biggest barriers you face (or faced) in limerence recovery?
The memories are too immersed in the mind and won’t let go in spite of strict long NC , and distancing.( one whole continent apart). The craving is so much alive…
Same situation. Ive been NC for almost 6yrs now but the memories are so immersed i find myself constantly thinking about her still, especially at night. I am so desperate for transference and a new LO just so i can finally get over her and the memories stop…
Hi Joe,
Welcome to the club of suffering…
I spent a few years before I could seriously get involved in a new relationship after I separated from LO ( he was my SO for three beautiful years), I swore to myself I’d never love that way again. I rejected a few marriage proposals but I couldn’t help it, I was so much in love with LO. Until I was introduced to a very “nice, mature man”, whom I decided to marry. Forty six years now married. Never thought of LO those years. But I had a dream with LO 49 years later, (after our separation ), and that brought me back to this nonsense/ limerence craving for him that it makes me weak and very sorrowful, and turned my peaceful world upside down! To the point I thought if he was single and wanted me, I’d leave my SO of forty six years for him!!! Crazy, right?
Life is full of unique surprises!!! You’ll find your partner but be very sure of what you want.
Good luck and best wishes.
For me, not being able to be NC. I do believe I’m on the road to recovery, but to be 100% over my LE I need to be apart from LO. That is not possible at the moment.
However, I have got to the point in my LE where I fantasize much less about being with her and fantasize more about moving on from her. I take that as a good sign. It’s just so hard to disengage completely when I have to coexist with her and interact with her on a regular basis.
For me, one uncivilized, uncultured, and unruly Easterner, a big “barrier” to Limerence would be Eastern energy-medicines (requires willpower and discipline to intake), which can curb or remove the side effects of Limerence — rumination, carving, insomnia, headache, chest pains, heart flutter, neurological dysregulation, shame, guilt, etc, while simultaneously obtaining and maintaining positive ones — life-force Qi/energy’s flowing, acceptance of reality, peace, contentment, joy, giddiness, positive imaginations, creativity, Philia, Agape, Ludus, Philaupia, and more.
In this scenario, why would one want to get rid of Limerence that comes from a very rare, mystical glimmer, imaginary or not, which sustainably enlivens a small, ordinary life in some concreted ways amongst the messy, indifferent world❓
I’m at peace with my current unrequited limerence now. ☺️
A link to a fundamental difference between Western and Eastern philosophy and how it is formed in terms of historical geogorphy and lifestyle, and why it is relevant to relationships of all kinds, including limerence —
https://youtu.be/aBmnz0DqDUk?si=gT1dNP-gC_2Yh_v6
The Western philosophy aims to change the outside world and others; the eastern world emphasizes on changing Oneself and thus adjust individual perspectives on the external world.
In MHO, Western psychoanalysis and psychotherapies (and Stoicism) focus on understanding oneself, thus improving one’s perscetpions and adaptations to the largely uncontrollable, external world, which includes those incidental LOs that almost always turn one’s life “upside down” and spin it out of track…
The “Empire” — the Unconscious, has struck back! My limerence seems to have been struck from a positive to a negative range: now it feels like -1 to -3!
I’m copying a bit of Jungian theory (a part of book I was reading and studying over the summer, called “Discover Your Personal Myth by Institute for Psycho-Systems Analysis):
*****
1. Ego is the “center of the field of consciousness” responsible for reflexive self-awareness, and executive, external relations with the socio-environment.
2. The Alter-Ego is to act in self-regulation to the Ego, as an alternative organizing structure, in compensations for the Ego, both in terms of its contents (psychologically — such as attitudes, opinions, values etc) and, it’s specific energy (libido)
3. The Alter-Ego is that part of The Shadow (as it’s defined by Jung) that most readily personifies in dreams, fantasies, aspirations and fears (for example in the extreme case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde)
4. Whereas, the Ego has at its disposal all of the contents of the field of consciousness, and any information that may be readily accessible to it, The Alter-Ego has within its remit the entire contents of the Personal Unconscious.
5. The Personal Unconscious being the summation of every experiences, and learning process ever made within the span of an individual’s life, is incalculably larger than the Ego.
6. The Alter-Ego’s role is to balance the Ego’s real-time status, in terms of content.
7. So whatever position is taken by the Ego, the opposite potential will be immediately adopted by the Alter-Ego — in compensations, for the purpose of homeostasis — that is self-regulation of the (personal) psyche, in real-time.
8. The Alter-Ego will attempt to ‘push’ polarized-information into the field of consciousness, and into the Ego itself, then to receive, and systematize information lost to the Ego and its field of consciousness; either through natural turnover or psychodynamic factors such as suppression repression, etc.
9. So, the homeostatic function of the Alter-Ego is normal and healthy. Things go wrong, most often, when the position taken by the Ego is too polarized (one sided)
10. This is particularly marked when issues of morality and values are taken up the Ego; either as a result of cultural or social learning, or, directly from within an innate (internal) setting, which may be “archetypal” in nature.
11. Jung said: ‘The brighter the light, the darker the Shadow’. Therefore, if the Ego tries to be too ‘good’, the Alter-Ego, obligingly compensates and becomes too ‘bad’.
******
My understanding of the above passage —
Let’s be honest with ourselves, we all have Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde in each of us, defined by social values, morality, and laws; otherwise, we might jump into LO’s bed anytime without blinking our eyes. Most of us want to and have to show the world our Dr. Jekyll mask and hide/deny Mr. Hyde face deeply within, until the latter is repressed enough to make us mentally “sick” or to rebel in some “immoral/unethical” or even criminal behaviors.
For the majority in any society, the Light — morality/good; Its Shadow — immorality/evil.
In sociopath situations, the Light — “meanness/cruelty”; its Shadow — Nicety/politeness.
In treating limerence: the Light — no disclosure, no contact, no fanstasy; its Shadow — shameless disclosure, inauthentic friendship, natural death of LE.
The strong preference in Light treatment sends information to the Unconscious, then the Unconscious compensates and sends back the Shadow through dreams, fantasy, intuition or whatever. The more one tries to push the Shadow down, the more it pushes it up making us “ill”— What is resisted persists!
So while most of limerents have been advocating the Light of dealing with limerence, I was “promoting” its Shadow treatment. I even invited LO for tea and cakes to test the water of a possible disclosure and authentic friendship — I was not playing a game to win debates, but seriously stood on my own ground, and later got a personalized “Holy Crusade.”
Then something happened on the night of Sunday over Monday (10/15-16), without a nightmare or LO in my dreams. I woke up SUDDENLY filled with a strong repulsion at LO and my LE, everything about him and my LE became ridiculous and a bit of disgusting. Nothing happened since last Wednesday with an almost perfect teatime; this black emotion just landed in me without any reasons (maybe the argument and makeup with Sammy?). I immediately felt sorry for LO, due to my such unreasonable “dislike”, which I always felt for my unrequited suitors/limerents in the past).
As mentioned before, I believe the Unconscious dominates conscious at the emotional level, while the rational mind controls one’s (in)actions.
Limerence is hugely over-sized additive infatuation, that our rational mind finds almost impossible to kill. Now my Unconscious — The “Empire”, has stuck back possibly due my strong, one-sided view and handling on limerence. It’s killing my LE totally out of and against my Ego’s expectation, reasons and will, at the powerful EMOTIONAL level!
Could the Unconscious be a “Barrier” 🧐 ❓for some of us who only holds up one way of handling limerence? Perhaps we need not to be so relentless on its negative sides? Perhaps we could adopt a more balanced view and varied treatments on limerence, depending on personality and mental/emotional strengths?
To freely voice out our “Shadow” parts on limerence, be it negative or positive, definitely help us regulate them so as not to let them make us feel so repressed or emotionally/mentally stressed out. 😫
For those who just want to fire morality bullets, hold you guns! Here is a free ghost-land to safely voice out one’s Light as well as Shadow, an ideation is not action! And even if you do fire, do you think you, an invisible ghost, can actually stop anyone’s actions in reality?? 🤓
It’s a rumination of my past two days….
Wow, this sounds very relatable and makes sense to me. I was deeply unhappy with my current job + relationship. She gained weight due to hormonal contraception, sex life wasn’t great anymore and after about a year of being together, I suddenly „woke up“ from being happily in love to being „WTF, why am I with this ugly person“?
But I forced myself to be „good“, to stay with her because leaving due to something superficial that wasn’t her fault would be considered „bad” by my Ego.
So of course, I met this amazing LO on a night out while interviewing for a job in a different country. When I kissed her, it felt like „handing over” to my Shadow. In the following weeks and months, I behaved like a complete narcissist on autopilot and lied straight to my SO’s face to keep the addictive supply from texting with LO.
> To freely voice out our “Shadow” parts on limerence, be it negative or positive, definitely help us regulate them so as not to let them make us feel so repressed or emotionally/mentally stressed out. 😫
To me, the best way of integrating my Shadow’s desires has been writing song lyrics. I’ve never done this before meeting this LO. Getting in touch with my creative side is probably the only good thing coming from this manic, limerent episode.
Maybe one day I’ll actually „voice out my Shadow parts” on stage. I wonder whether many limerents out there are creatively repressed Enneagram Fours who need to do art in order to appropriately manage their emotions.
Enneagram 4 with 5 wings here. And funny, after a few years of breaking up with LO#1 about 2 decades ago, I didn’t produce any paintings for more than a decade. Although I did participate in other creative stuff, like performing in a small band for a few years or being an admin for a short-term art collective, it felt like I was running away or had a chip on my shoulder because it was something I had in common with LO#1.
Anyway, I’ve only picked up painting again recently and I do notice that I’m feeling much more positive and getting quite surprised at the images that are conjured up sometimes. And when I take a short break, like skipping a week or two, the emotional post-LE flare up begins again.
So yes, thank you for spelling out what needs to be done and added to my Purposeful Living tasks.
@Findus, @Why
If we could voice out of our Shadow through any form of art, then Lemerence would “shine” in its positive side, just look at Dante and many painters…
Writing lyrics or proses, painting, playing music, making collages… are all artistic way to express Shadow, our limerence’s pains, making them channel through us and “bloom externally with inspirational light to ourselves and others…
I’m Enneagram 5 brimmed with 4 layers… INFP. I’m still somewhat dumbfounded after the “Empire” suddenly struck me over two weeks ago… and feeling deep melancholy…
The Unconscious struck me again last night, two nights in a roll:
The night before my dream made me suffer an abandonment melange through LO ignoring me (not even a “hello) while walking with other colleagues around a cafe where I was sitting. (The realistic one in 2019 gave me the biggest panic attack). The dream plunged me into a deep sadness, of which took me around 3 hours to reduce its intensity.
Last night, the Unconscious made LO a villain again: I caught him right after his secret dating a single mother with a 5 year old boy (I don’t know anyone remotely in reality in that situation) in MY dorm (I don’t live I n a dorm)! He outright lied to my face when I came back home a bit late for his visit as a friend. Having PA with someone else behind SO’s back is one thing, but having it in an unrequited limenrent’s home is beyond an Olympian God’s tolerance!
So I wrote out a big poster in a black brush, declaring NC and another list of things I was going to do…. Then I woke up with my stomach filled with repulsion — worse than anger! Now, I have to physically get rid of my headache; and I want to punch LO’s face and announce NC in person!
A few weeks ago, I was strongly voicing out to hopefully make an authentic friend with LO, then what my Unconscious did⁉️ If my counscious thoughts are “positive”, then the IT will strike them with nightmares, and vice vista — occasionally gave me salacious dreams when I felt completely hopeless.
If I believe in Jung that the Unconscious is an alive BEING breathing deeply in our psyche, IT is 10 times more powerful than the entire LwL’s logical advices; IT might be my/our personal “God” —
“The Alter-Ego’s role is to balance the Ego’s real-time status, in terms of content.”
“So whatever position is taken by the Ego, the opposite potential will be immediately adopted by the Alter-Ego — in compensations, for the purpose of homeostasis — that is self-regulation of the (personal) psyche, in real-time.”
I’m curious to know if anyone else’s dreams play such an important role in their consciously mind, especially at an emotional level.
One hour meditation got rid of the most of the headache, but need a sweaty workout to soothe the stomach.
I’ve got literally two worlds affecting my daily life, poor me!
“I’m curious to know if anyone else’s dreams play such an important role in their consciously mind, especially at an emotional level.”
For me, definitely dreams play an important role. One therapist said, “Your subconscious doesn’t lurk very far beneath the surface.”
I’ve had some real doozies about my LOs over the years. However, in none of them have I never broken up with LO #2, reconciled with LO #2, or formed any kind of real relationship with LO #4.
In most dreams, LO #4 doesn’t even know me, nor does she appear to want to.
“In Dreams” – Roy Orbison (1963)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqaW-qeBQeo
I was a dreamer since young and still remember some of my kid’s nightmares if they were too scary — the soul shakers!
My usually vivid dreams, through their bizarre stories (never happened in reality) and images, often showed me my fears, worries, resentments, occasional sweet wishes and salacious surprises. Whether “real” or not, affection of dream events is same as that of which if they happened in reality. Life is but a dream, who says that dreams aren’t true?
Jung says that if we’re open and sensitive enough, we can hear what our unconscious is ready to reveal to us, something that our consciousness might avoid seeing or too logical to tell.
I consider my Unconscious as my alley; today all day I’ve feeling resentment at Sensor LO’s leading on acts and my stupid gullibility and following along. My mind seems to be more realistic and clearer in hindsight what have actually happened. I was so limerence-deluded!
There would be another big berating myself for the following days.
Snow,
In really simple terms, my dreams keep telling me that my LOs have no place in my life. They just don’t.
Shari Schreiber says, “Your instincts will never lie to you.” – https://sharischreiber.com/do-you-love-to-be-needed/
In that respect, if your dreams are your instincts manifesting themselves, what are they really saying to you?
For me, it was if I knew the right answer, why couldn’t I just accept it and let go? What was causing the internal conflict? How did I get here? Why did it resurface after decades? Why did I attach to LO #4, in many ways was like LO #2, when LO #2 gave me nothing but grief at the end?
Nothing in my dreams offered any hope. I was getting different stories with the same ending. Although, in my more recent dreams, my dreams show an acceptance. In those, LO #2 and I are no longer at war with each other. But, we’ll never be together. My last few dreams about LO #4 reconcile nicely with what she said to me.
Solving that took science in the form of therapy and a lot of DIY work. I’ve said it before, I’ve had some really good therapists but I also had a pretty good idea of what problem I was trying to solve.
Limerent Emeritus
I disagree with you that the Unconscious equals “instinct”, except at one’s birth. I’m half Jungian so the Unconscious to me is —
“The Personal Unconscious being the summation of every experiences, and learning process ever made within the span of an individual’s life, is incalculably larger than the Ego.”
I’ve dreamed about all sorts of stuff in throughout my life, limerence or LO is less than 1% of them. I primarily battle with cPTSD, of which limerence is just one part.
So what my Unconscious manifests to me, through dream narratives, seems to be different than what it shows to you in terms of limerence. Affectation of a dream is more important than what happened in dream events. Since my effective meditation started in July, my dreams have become much less detailed, less memorable, only that their affectation have impact on my conscious thoughts, moods, and behaviors…
Comparison, I’m less goal-orientated, the process of doing or pursuing, like planting of farmers, is just enjoyable.
Snow,
I won’t debate anyone on Jung. I’ve read maybe one book by him. Some of his writing, like the archetypes, I liked but a lot of his other ideas left me cold. I hear the words “anima” and “animus” and my eyes glaze over. I wanted to be more interested in him but he never caught on with me.
In high school, I got into reading Hermann Hesse for awhile. He and Jung knew each other and apparently Hesse’s work positively drips with Jung’s influence. I really liked Hesse’s “Beneath the Wheel” and identify with Hans.
I hated “Steppenwolf.” I tried rereading it as an adult. By the the middle of the book, I would have been willing to buy a gun and give it to Harry Haller or shoot him myself.
According the the tests I took, I’m The Trickster. I didn’t think so but my daughter says it describes me well.
LO #4, the PsyD, told me she was a Jungian. We never got into any discussions about him.
Limerent Emeritus
I haven’t studied Jung systematically but listened to his 3 books and learned about some interpretations of his theories in Youtube. Some of his discoveries and “theories” are based on his own personal experiences, particularly during the last leg of his life — nearly broken down, so not valid universally; some stuff is just out of date.
What I appreciate most is his shadow work, the Unconscious vs. conscious theory, and individuation — discover one’s personal myth. Only through his ideas, I was able to accept and embrace my own shadows while previously, I just wanted to suppress or kill those “negative” thoughts and emotions, in vain. I was the worst “thought police” to my own psyche! Through Jung’s work, my conscious mind finally “liberated” my Self from my own subconscious thought-policeman’s tight clutches for ages! Now, I’m becoming an “unruly savage! ☺️
“I won’t debate anyone on Jung. I’ve read maybe one book by him. Some of his writing, like the archetypes, I liked but a lot of his other ideas left me cold. I hear the words “anima” and “animus” and my eyes glaze over. I wanted to be more interested in him but he never caught on with me.”
I won’t debate with anyone on Jung, either. My understanding of one of Jung’s points is that he does NOT want anyone to follow his footstep, no two individuation process could ever be same. What a symbol means to one could be quite different to another, everyone’s personal Myth is absolutely Unique and vitally important to that individual. Therefore, there is NO formula in Jung’s work to follow in terms of continuing one’s spiritual and psychological growth.
“..the shadow belongs to the wholeness of the personality: the strong man must somewhere be weak, somewhere the clever man must be stupid, otherwise he is too good to be true and falls back on pose and bluff.”— Jung
My limited understanding of “Anima” and “Animus” is that each of us has both anima and animus — feminine and masculine energy, and it helps us to recognize their origins and understand their concrete manifestations in our daily life. As I preciously discussed with Sammy that I have tons of masculine energy while he has a lot of feminine one.
I’ve read Hermann Hesse “Steppenwolf” and “Siddhartha” but not “Beneath the Wheel” yet; I enjoyed the former two, because I see some universal truths in them.
“IF YOU HATE A PERSON, YOU HATE SOMETHING IN HIM THAT IS PART OF YOURSELF. WHAT ISN’T PART OF OURSELVES
DOESN’T DISTURB US.” — Hermann Hesse
“According the the tests I took, I’m The Trickster. I didn’t think so but my daughter says it describes me well.”
Based on Jungian theory, the Trickster is an “archetype”, both collective and individual. “The individual in the stage believes in themselves to be completely in control of their intellect and wits when, really, parapraxis, hurtful jokes, and suboptimal behaviors all arise and I make themselves known, causing mischief along the way.” Based on this definition, I have little “Trickster” in me — afraid to raise my hand in a classroom/lecture even if I have dying questions.
Sometimes I took those personality tests online for fun, but never believed in any of them. We all constantly change and evolve, how could anyone stays in a same type? How could 8 billions population just fit in 16 MBTI types? My thoughts and behaviors could manifest 3 or 4 types in a single day and I kind of like my own “flexibility”, even in LO, which makes everyday a kind of “new” or “fresh”…
“I have always believed, and I still believe, that whatever good or bad fortune may come our way we can always give it meaning and transform it into something of value.”
Hermann Hesse (Siddhartha)
I found that as soon as I could give a meaning to my suffering, then that suffering is reduced and becomes endurable. Tons of artists and writers create masterpieces out of their sufferings….
The sense of meaninglessness is the absolute KILLER in one’s life! Albert Camus is brilliant that only each individual could create or make for themselves, No universal meanings in anything!
Typo: “Albert Camus is brilliant in that only each individual could create or make meanings for themselves, in order to go on…”
A límerent in court — serving Jury Duty.
Wish to be picked if it is a limerence case… 😋.
Do you think I’ll be fair enough to serve?
Snow,
If you’re in a US court and it is a limerence case, you’ll be tossed in the premptory challenge.
My bet is it would be the defense attorney asking if you’ve ever heard of limerence. Tell them about LwL and the defense attorney will love you. The prosecutor will dismiss you.
If the prosecutor asks, it would be followed up by questions that determine what your position on limerence is. One side or the other won’t like it.
You’re gone either way.
It’s a criminal case; doubt a limerent has that much gut aside from ruminating daydreams, frightened like a Bonny Wabbit even to verbally disclose. 😃
It’s personally traumatically triggering case. I am excused. 😨
“doubt a limerent has that much gut aside from ruminating daydreams”
Snowphoneix, if we don’t speak up than through that choice our lack of empathy allows more to suffer. And I wouldn’t want anyone to suffer with no knowledge as to what is happening to them. I would most certainly speak up.
In fact with my sister-in-law and brother-in-law (after a phone conversation last weekend) I am considering telling them about limerence to explain, what from the outside they have observed in our marriage. So they can better understand. It’s what I try to do here without damaging myself.
My wife, when her sister asked her something (I don’t remember what exactly), said “Adam went through something personal.” Her sister asked “What do you mean personal?” And I said “She’s saying that it’s too personal for her to share and you’ll only know about it if I tell you.” She told me that I could tell her if I wanted to anytime.
And I am considering that, since both of them I am close to and would feel comfortable doing so. Cause I am tired of my brain demoralizing this. Maybe talking to someone else will help.
Second that Adam. Having someone, anyone to talk to about this subject is a big help..
@Adam
“if we don’t speak up then through that choice our lack of empathy allows more to suffer. And I wouldn’t want anyone to suffer with no knowledge as to what is happening to them. I would most certainly speak up.”
You wish me to speak up about limerence/limerent addict in a criminal courtroom? I think judge may order court-psych to diagnose whether I’m sounding enough to be a juror. The term “limerence” is NOT on the map of psychology field yet.
As far as I know, even “pathological narcissism/narcissist” is not credited in criminal trials; no one can point out that such and such is a pathological narcissists, therefore, s/he would have done this or that… The court needs “scientific”, concrete evidences. What’s core evidences of limerence — a state of mind w/o concrete actions, that can be used in a criminal case?
Even after DrL’s second book upgrades “limerence” from “downstairs” to “upstairs”, I wonder if within 2 more decades, the term “limerence/limerents” would appear in criminal courts, perhaps civil ones? Would limerence/love addicts be treated the same way as cocaine/heroin addicts?
Another Huge Barrier that accurately summarizes and explains those long-term, unwilling to die Limerence, like mine.
[A French high school’s philosophy class from French movie “Things to Come”.
*Teacher reads —]
*****
“So long as we desire, we can do without happiness. if happiness fails to come, hope persists, and illusion’s charm lasts as long as the passion causing it. Thus, this condition suffices to itself and the anxiety it inflicts is a pleasure, which supplants reality, perhaps bettering it.
Woe to him who has nothing to desire! He loses everything he owns. We enjoy less what we obtain than what we desire, and are happy only before becoming so.”
[*Teacher explains —]
“Julie is recalling her former passion, unrequited, with Saint-Preux.
She had hoped to know true bliss with him and this hope made her happy. Julie could then be happy substituting dream for reality. “That states sufficed onto itself.”
This is the power of imagination. It compensates for the absence of the loved one with a pleasure that is purely mental, unreal in a way, yet nevertheless effective. For people with a lot of imagination, like a Julie, but probably Rousseau as well, phantasmagorical satisfaction is a real comfort that supplants, replaces, carnal pleasure.”
*********
Snow,
This is a perfect description of us limerents dreaming with our LOs! The power of the imagination, substitutes reality for fantasy dreaming, the hope that keeps us happy and going knowing the most likely impossibility of ever being together . The dream goes on, unyielding to reality…
It’s not that we don’t perceive the reality as such, we cling to the fantasy so much to keep on living and giving meaning to our lives. To dream the impossible dream… (Don Quixote film track sound). I believe every single individual has a dream of some kind, or else it would be impossible to have any passion for anything, such as a discovery, travel, becoming someone famous, any professional dream, etc and of course the dream of the rescued damsel and the rescuer shining knight. Yep, life is but a dream. Let your dreams die and you become dead matter…
Thank you for this beautiful post. Hugs!!!
“The Impossible Dream”. From the Man of the Mancha, don Quixote.
“To dream the impossible dream/to fight the unbeatable foe/ to bear with unbearable sorrow/ to run where the brave dare not go/
To right the unrightable wrong/ to love pure and chaste from afar/ to try when your arms are too weary/ to reach the unreachable star.
This is my quest/ to follow that star/ no matter how hopeless/ no matter how far/
To fight for the right/ without question or pause/ to be willing to March/ into hell for a heavenly cause.
And I know if only be true/ to this glorious quest/ that my heart will be peaceful and calm/ when I’m laid to my rest.
And the world will be better for this/ that one man scorned covered with scars/ still strive with his last ounce of courage/ to fight the unbeatable foe/ to reach the unreachable star.
Beautifully composed!
We can all join a “cause” to live a purposeful living life, therefore living LOs behind to just become a beautiful dream, like Don Quixote’s for Dulcinea…
@Nisor
“This is a perfect description of us limerents dreaming with our LOs! The power of the imagination, substitutes reality for fantasy dreaming, the hope that keeps us happy and going, knowing the most likely impossibility of ever being together . The dream goes on, unyielding to reality…”
Yes, it’s the worst limerence one could get — the Limerent Object is not realistic person anymore but a Phantom — an idealized unreachable LO. Imagination and hope supplant and replace impossibilities. I wonder if it’s like believe in a god in a religion?
“It’s not that we don’t perceive the reality as such, we cling to the fantasy so much to keep on living and giving meaning to our lives.”
Yes, we know the difference between the reality and our own fantasy but still choose to keep both running simultaneously, since the latter sustains our spirit and powers our realistic livings with self-created meanings, subjective TRUTH in our mind.
“To dream the impossible dream… (Don Quixote film track sound). I believe every single individual has a dream of some kind, or else it would be impossible to have any passion for anything, such as a discovery, travel, becoming someone famous, any professional dream, etc”
Very true. Only non-limerent might choose dreams that could be actualized in reality while limerents sometimes reverie in impossible dreams —self-created mental drugs, that have historically powered uncountable discoveries, creations and inventions for our material world. One should never underestimate or deny the positive energy of limerence, just due to its negative or destructive side effects. Every coin has two sides, why people focus on just dealing with one side?
“of course the dream of the rescued damsel and the rescuer shining knight. Yep, life is but a dream. Let your dreams die and you become dead matter…”
Yep, still dreaming here “the shining rescuer knight” for this damsel, which I could not at all sense or defect in horizon. But if letting the HOPE die, I’d become a walking zombie.
Thank you for posting “The Impossible Dream”, from the Man of the Mancha, Don Quixot. I love it! It’s so refreshing and inspiring, cheering up my lately sunk mood….
Having been limerent several times in my life, I honestly think limerence has a course to run rather like grief and you just have to age out of it. The only things that will terminate it prematurely are an outright and unequivocal rejection by the LO, or transference, or the LO dying or forming a relationship with someone else, or similar situation completely beyond your control that means it really is impossible.
That’s not to say the knowledge and advice on Living with Limerence isn’t extremely helpful, but it’s helpful as rationalisation and coping strategies that make it a bit easier to resist making poor decisions and wasting the time you’re afflicted with it.
I feel similar, replacement of one LO has been the only cure for a prior LO, but im getting older, still single and I’m struck by your first comment, “Having been limerent several times in my life, I honestly think limerence has a course to run rather like grief and you just have to age out of it”…Do you feel you’ve aged out of it? Did it require a recognition of finite mortality and recognition you’ve got to enjoy your remaining life with or without your romantic obsession(s)?
They’ve served as such motivation for healthy fitness behaviors, but equally unhealthy mental ones. I just discovered this site today & I hope to learn more, but your “aging out” comment stirred me…it brings many questions for how I’m handling this pet obsession.
I recently made an observation about the difference between “getting over” a normal crush vs. getting over a limerence episode. Obviously this is just my experience, but here at LwL, we are trying to find commonalities in our limerence experiences, so here goes.
First of all, let’s state the difference between a normal crush and limerence is the level of the obsessive quality and the intrusive thoughts. Also intensity. Limerence is just MORE.
So, having gotten over many crushes and a couple of limerences (mostly), I realized that how I think about them in the past is different. Once a normal crush is over, it is out of mind. I’m just over it, almost like an on-off switch. In contrast, limerence was a long drawn out process of detaching, and it hurt, and it was two steps forward, one step back. Also limerence – even when I have deprogramed, and consider myself over it (as in no more obsession) – I look back at it with a bit of wonder, almost like nostalgia and a touch of regret. The emotional investment was just so much greater. It affected me more. It changed me. And in some way, I never felt MORE ALIVE than when I was in the throes of limerence. I never wanted anything so badly, never longed with what felt was all my being, never cried with such despair. Even now, when I see my ex-LO (without glimmer) on occasion, the memory of all that emotion is still there, so I’m not totally neutral towards LO.
I think … on some level, we are drawn to the technicolor of limerence. It is extra-ordinary. As in, not ordinary. WE are not ordinary while we are experiencing it. It is special. We feel special. Or at least, we see another human being as so special. So, maybe that is what lies behind us not wanting to let go of limerence, or looking back at it with some nostalgia – life is usually so ordinary. Happy, ordinary, unremarkable, lovely for the most part, and we can get through life without too much thought. Limerence is a storm. It wrecks but it is power. It is unforgettable, demands attention. Its intensity is part of its allure.
I want to say – I did NOT want to fail. But I also admit that a small part of me was so alive, and life was extraordinary for awhile, and a part of me misses that.
Yes, life without limerence feels flat. Dull. Void.
Hi @Rainbowbrite,
I just wanted to write to say that your post really spoke to me. It encapsulates my main barrier to getting over limerence. Life would be so different – dull, grey, pointless, without it.
I know that this totally goes against the treatment approach for limerence recovery, and that mine is a very unpopular view. But for me, I feel like I am living more purposefully *since* limerence. What I mean is that, since my LE, I started a few self improvement things, and most importantly, I feel that I am having a better time with my SO and family than beforehand, when I was totally preoccupied by other things (work, etc). Why would I want to get rid of this in my life?
I know that the trajectory and intensity is different for everyone. And that, for the majority of LwL community, the downsides are very much not worth it (with a few exceptions). I am not sure if the circumstances of my LE help.
Firstly, this is my first ever LE so I don’t feel ‘ground down’ by limerence the way others do. Secondly, although I did experience one or two bouts of crying and feeling desperately bad due to this LE (including intrusive thoughts, rumination, terrible concentration issues), that is just in the wake of an intense interaction. I mostly feel good and much better than before. For instance, I think that it is mutual although we have not disclosed. Nevertheless, both sides have gone very LC, more or less simultaneously. Perhaps both would lose respect for the other one if we were ever to act on it. Due to LC, there isn’t daily uncertainty around seeing them at work or social media posts going unacknowledged. I think if I was in the situation of seeing/hearing from them every day, I would be destroyed. But I am not. I don’t expect to hear from them. When I do, I can go into a bit of a tornado of emotions for a few days afterwards, but it subsides. The rest of the time, I tell myself that there is someone I love in the world, and they probably love me too. (I know people argue that its not really love…).
When I do feel bad, it is because something else challenging in my life has happened and I crave some comfort from my LO. When they don’t react, then I can really begin to hate them and consider completely cutting them off forever. But that precise thought always is countered with the idea that, if I do it, life will go back to how it was before – which I do not want. The truth is, before my LE, I was drifting aimlessly through life and bogged down by many midlife things….I don’t want to go back there. This is a real dilemma for me.
One thing that I worry about it whether they are struggling via not seeing things the way I do. But obviously, I can’t tell any of this without disclosing.
My SO would probably tell you that our marriage has never been better as it was in a bit of a rut before.
I do hope that comments are not unhelpful for those who really want rid of this.
Hi Bewitched,
no, it’s helpful to read that.
I also had these feelings and still think that there‘s a beautiful and very alive side to limerence.
When I was in a happy middle state of limerence like you- a bit distance, not too much contact ,but secure knowledge that he is limerent too- I felt very good, too.
But it didn’t last. There was always a development of wanting more on my side, or getting uncertain or whatever.
I was too dependent on LO for my mood and general well-being.
I wish for you that it‘s possible to live in that blissful state either forever or until the LE ran its course, without getting as dependent as me.
I like a lot of what you wrote there Bewitched. We think alike in some regards. Thank you for putting your thoughts into words..
🙂👏
Sounds like we’re in a similar place. My LO has made certain moves and gestures and words that make it clear we have feelings for each other (though I don’t know if he’s limerent). But our contact is on a friendship level and neither of us has tried to push a PA. As long as it stays there, I’m enjoying the flirtation and don’t want to lose it. I’m also trying to inject more affection into my marriage so I don’t feel deprived. I’m just trying to stop the things that make it painful, like endless rumination and lack of interest in other things.
@Serial Limerent. Wow, my situation is very similar to yours. I think there is a thin line between enjoying the flirtation, and falling into the rumination/depression rabbit hole, so I would urge caution. Atleast I could not control when I went from one end to the other, and am now trying to go in the reverse direction, with some degree of success.
@ABCD: Yeah, I know about the depression pits. They screwed me over several times the past few months. Trying to avoid them now!
I remembered this comment just now, thinking over a past LE. I have just been reading through my old diaries from that time period, and discovering that it was mutual–and that I don’t regret it one bit. I was my boss’s “work wife,” and we never did anything illicit, but we flirted a lot. Now looking back on it–probably since all we ever did was flirt–it’s a pleasant memory making up the rich tapestry of my life. So LE’s aren’t all bad! 🙂 Of course, that probably depends on how far the LE is taken. If it turns into a PA, that’s damaging. If boundaries are kept, it can be a fun memory decades later.
Serial limerent,
If the expectation on both sides is low, only limited to flirtation without ever involving full-blown EA or PA, or unstoppable rumination, or emotional “upside-down” of either side’s life, then LE carving is not unmanageably high…. Then it’s spicy memory after a long while….
The reality, or a quality of a reality, is what and how one’s mind perceives/creates it — “Your brain does not detect reality. It creates it.”
https://youtu.be/ikvrwOnay3g?si=Z_l2sXC-mUlBJadH
@Snowpheonix
Yeah, I’m working on that for my current LO. So far it seems to be working; my head’s a lot clearer now than it was a couple of months ago, when I was plunged into depression. For a time it seemed like we were headed somewhere, then we both pulled back a bit, like a course correction.
Rainbowbrite, hi.
You describe it so beautiful it made my eyes misty. I feel exactly the same way…
“It affected me more. It changed me. And in some way, I never felt MORE ALIVE than when I was in the throes of limererence. I never wanted anything so badly, never longed with what felt was all my being, never cried with such despair.”
Looking back at it with great nostalgia, a sorrow that grips the mind, heart and soul. It really was something extraordinary! Nothing compares to those feelings of
love!
Best wishes to all.
Thank you Rainbowbridge. This is one of the most honest, elegant and prosaic expressions or accountings that I have read on this website regarding the essence of what it feels like or seems like to be in a state of limerence . This assessment is honest, and it is so effing true!!
Thanks Rainbowbrite and repliers. I also enjoyed RB’s exquisite description of the LE in its raptuous state. Two things spring to mind in response. The first, a remembrance of Amy Winehouse’s comment that after rehab, life seemed so boring without drugs. Limerance is drug-like in the way that the highs are followed by inevitable lows, and that ordinary life seems dull in comparison to a high state. The almost bipolar nature of the experience is well understood, and of course the love/rapture state is so enjoyable when in it that ordinary life seems lacklustre in comparison, but its lows are devastating.Yet after a period of abstinence from any addiction, one eventually does stabilise and begin to enjoy one’s life and the possibilites that it can offer once one is out of the maelstorm. The capacity to feel genuine joy and ecstasy from other life experiences returns.
It is a shame Amy couldn’t get to that point with her own addiction. After decades of limerant experiences, I have finally understood that these episodes were plastering over deep wounds in myself caused by FOO neglect or low self-esteem. They- LEs- provided both an alternative focus and a relatively ‘safe’ harbour – as commitment was not really required – in which to satisfy a deep craving for love and desire. This brings me to my second point/response.
Finally, now that I understand how limerance functioned in my life, I can free myself of it, and the burdens it brings, and focus instead on my own self and dreams. Now I no longer need limerance, I can turn myself to other pursuits and passions, such as my writing, career, family, home, financial stability, charity etc. I do not need the LO to distract me from my emotional loneliness or other personal dissatisfactions. I have dissarmed the attraction by facing what it was functioning as – as a means to channel my unfulfilled desires on an unobtainable goal. I also see what a time-waster it was, and how it functioned as a diversion, a futile and destructive one at that. I am now free of the cravings for the LO through a withrawal process similar to that gone through to heal any other addiction, and gratefully, I am now feeling an amazing sense of emotional stability, and am experiencing the revival of my true life’s purpose re-emerging within me.
My advice is to try very hard to get yourself off of the emotional rollercoaster, and realise how it was/is functioning in your life. If it functions as a drug, then understand the high cost of that addiction, and its low returns for a few highs. Get clean, and return to stability. It may seem boring for a while, but you will eventually be free to channel that passion into a satisfying and productive relationship, endeavour, dream or lifestyle. You can, and will, experience joy and ecstacy from greater participation in your own real life that are more sustainable than those obtained from the fantasy.
I appreciate sites and communities like these that discuss and raise awareness of these important human experiences. Good luck everyone, and blessings to you all. Wanting to love and be loved is nothing to be ashamed of. I hope we can all find legitimate and healthful ways of experiencing connection and personal joy.
MY GOD Mira that was profound and exactly what I needed to hear today. I am in a beautiful marriage to a wonderful human who is incredibly self aware and supportive. I have had LE many times throughout life mostly due to a very active imagination since childhood. But this LE is the first since being very happily married and I could not understand WHY it was happening. But as it spiraled out of control this year, I lost sight of basically every single hobby/ interest/dream I had including my own personal growth. I’m reading all these comments and not connecting with people who want love/connection/companionship bc I have that. And then this comment: An LE is “a means to channel my unfulfilled desires on an unobtainable goal.” My unfulfilled desires are simply different! I do not lack love, connection, intimacy, etc. But in the last 2 years I have become so focused on fighting issues in my local government that I have abandoned MY desires, my dreams, my goals, what I want to do with my life. I’ve pushed them aside for these grueling (if worthwhile) pursuits. And so my local rep becomes my LO bc I need something in this mess to bring me joy and reward. My God I am blown away and so grateful for your comment!! And I’ll add it was in so many ways a huge waste of time, but it has forced me to do much introspection and I have learned a lot about myself here at the end of the year. So the year is not completely lost and there are a few weeks left to it. Thanks again. So immeasurably helpful.
Too small of a church to even go LC, too much fun flirting with each other. I think it’s an ego boost for both of our mid-life crises. And if I cut one off, I just know I’ll transfer it to somebody else anyway. But we keep boundaries up, so maybe eventually it’ll die down because it’s not going anywhere. It’s already waning as he gets into his fall responsibilities and doesn’t show up at church for weeks at a time. My head is clearing somewhat.
Some past episodes ended with the LO’s sister fixing him up with someone else so he’d stop mooning over me, the LO boss quitting, the LO turning mean, and back in college, meeting somebody else to be limerent for.
I hope it fits the subject of the post, not sure.
I don’t expect answers, just want to ruminate a bit about it.
My current problem with getting over LE or- as I don’t feel limerent any more- to put it past me in a way that feels ok,
is that I seem to need to devalue LO, to find fault with him or blame him somehow, even though I know that it was all my thing, my tendency for limerence that caused all the upheaval.
I mean, it‘s surely healthy to see LO as a human being with faults and unpleasant sides to their character. But I seem to need to judge them for it and go „see, they were mean to me, so I don’t like them any more“, even though they weren‘t really mean.
It doesn’t seem fair, and as my LE was for my friend, I think I will manage to destroy that friendship that I so wanted to keep in the end.
Maybe I just have to accept that I need this kind of distancing from them before kinder feelings can take over again.
But it‘s surely kind of childish and unfair, I feel a bit sad about it.
Also, on the other sides I‘m unsure if some of my dislike isn’t deserved- I just don’t seem to be able to judge neutrally about it, cannot make the difference between what‘s real and what is my limerence-killing instinct.
Just the same as in the limerence really, where I couldn’t judge neutrally if they were really so great and irresistible or not.
In a more neutral mood, I reread in our WhatsApp chat, and I think I‘m not completely unfair here, there is something to dislike in his way he conducts our friendship at the moment. I just have to dislike it in proportion, not make it bigger than it is.
Mila
I am so with you on your last couple of posts.
I am absolutely not out of the woods yet myself but the finest thing
I did was to delete the WhatsApp chat with LO few months ago. Those blue ticks / grey ticks can play quite a number on you… It hurts a bit, it’s sometimes all you have, but it’s worth it i.m.h.o.
Also, while I’m here, you and the very lovely Adam, wrote some kind words here a few days ago. I felt so emotional when I read them. It stiffened my resolve to carry on and also to try to be nice! x
Frederico,
Thank you for the kind words too. I seem to be close to tears a lot of the time recently and appreciate kind words more than ever…
(Something that irks me about LO. He‘s not a man of words, but it still wouldn’t hurt him as my alleged best friend to send some kind words my way, especially as he seems to be happy to receive them from me. I know he‘s not well at the moment and stressed out, but how much effort would a „and how are YOU?“ be?)
I also restricted my WhatsApp and sometimes put his chat on silent or into the Archive, just not to be triggered by it when I use WhatsApp…
I think I come across rather terse- I cut out most of the Emojis and stopped the Good night routine… of course he reacted by being the same, but passive b… that he is, he will never ask why I pulled back, so be it.
As I wrote, sometimes I fear that this behavior of mine will end the friendship in the long run, but then, do you jump out of a burning house or not? Now I think my mental health and ending limerence is the priority. Which is a development.
Sorry to have ranted only about myself.
In my situation, I’m always finding the cues and reminders everywhere. I could go all day and not think of LO for hours, but if I leave to go out somewhere, thats when the
challenges begin. Especially when it comes to seeing vehicles that look like hers or really any love song I happen to hear. It’s hard not to remember her beautiful eyes and how she looked at me sometimes. I think that may be one of her best features, that I never get enough of.
While shopping the other day, I spotted a blonde in the store and from behind, this person looked so much like LO. I swore if got closer, it would be. From the hair, to the boots, to the outfit, the jacket, even this person’s walk, I swore it was LO. Then as I got closer and saw her from the front, it wasn’t. But I totally relapsed anyway and went the rest of the night ruminating. And bummed out it wasn’t LO. I was so hoping it would be.
I’ve been dealing with my current LE for about 4 years now. I went minimal contact about a year ago. That last for a few months. Now, we still chat and have lunch together regularly, but the limerence has greatly improved. Obsessive thoughts are reduced, though not gone. There is still the echo of limerence and nostalgia for the glimmer days. It is now manageable – that is, I am no longer having panic attacks, depressive episodes, etc. It does not affect my day-to-day to life.
I still wish the echoes would go away. No contact is extremely difficult given that we work together and have been good friends for years.
I think I agree with FullMinty. Maybe it just needs to run its course.
@ Lemon.
My situation is exactly like yours. I would not say that the LE is manageable, rather it is more manageable than before. Looks like LE needs to run its course, how long it takes is anyone’s guess. I agree that contact derails the whole recovery process, it does throw me off course when I interact with her. Just seems to be a really challenging and difficult situation to be in. Wish you the best.
Hello Lemon
I saw “LE for about 4 years now” and it made me sit up because that’s about the length of time I have expended/wasted.
I very much like the refreshing style of your post. I think it’s really going to help people.
“Maybe it just needs to run its course” That’s what I am thinking too, although my approach may be flawed and it certainly isn’t going to be easy.
Please keep posting….
On an even more personal note, I have been alcohol-free for a few days but that has rather flattened me. Nevertheless – “big barriers to limerence recovery” – I reckon that alcohol, for some of us, is a consideration.
Frederico,
congratulations on keeping away from alcohol! Me, I felt that it pulled me back into the soft addictive limerent state. I know that it’s the opposite for Adam, but your post sounds as if it has a similar pull for you.
Also it affects sleep and body health.. I think it’s a good decision to cut back on it, even if it feels bad in the beginning.
As I wrote to Marcia, my personal bigger problem is sugar..
Waiting for a blog post about cross- addictions, since the sugar or alcohol thing seems connected to limerence as an addiction…
I get waves of clarity now that almost seems that I can feel the hammer knocking on my brain (for now anyway)
That it isn’t about LO, it’s about ME, my lack in MY life
It’s sitting right on the top of my head, patiently waiting for me to open it up and let it in lol
And we all know too well, easier said than done!
Like, come on! If he/she was “the one” why be limerent more than once?
Why is it so easy to transfer from one to another?
Both of my LO’s are absolutely TERRIBLE men!!!
It’s ALL about us, NOT them! yeah, I said it!
I did a transfer last year from my first ever LO to another that is much worse than the first one
Yep, I most certainly attract the Narcissists
Of course he became my stupid, soul sucking, married LO!
But, tough work on myself is helping
Baby Steps
Small, flat, heart-wrenching and stomach turning
But, steps none the less
WE GOT THIS
~Anna
@Mila @ Frederico:
I am also exactly in the same boat as both of you. I saw that a big issue is expecting validation/response from LO. So, the next logical step is to expect zero/minimum response. One needs to get out of the cycle of posting something and then expecting an LO response. And then ruminating why she did not respond. Not checking/less checking of social media is definitely a good step, though it may be hard at first. However, one’s mental health is surely the top priority for all of us, and must take front seat. I wish you both, and all members tonnes of resolve.
Hi ABCD,
My LO problem aren’t the social media (although I noticed that he never „likes“ my posts if they seem happy but unrelated to him;)) but the WhatsApp contact, which is at the moment the only contact, very frequent, until I cut back on it recently.
He is my good friend, so I face the question, if I‘m irked that he responds to any hint of deeper issue or problem of mine only with emojis (sad, angry, whatever) because I‘m dependent on him as LO, or if it isn’t normal to expect a friend to react a bit more empathic and use some words or even ask a question..?
The thing is that he might fight his own limerence battle, I‘m not sure, he seemed limerent on his passive way, so maybe I shouldn’t judge too hard,
BUT
I still think, as you said, to fight my own tendencies for limerence I have to put myself first here. Better to view him as an un-empathic egotist than get back into LE by giving him empathic credit for fighting his own battle. Or is that unfair? I don’t know.
I think this indeed the struggle when you are dealing with a mutual limerence situation. I am currently both the limerent and the LO and I vacillate between feelings of tenderness, compassion and guilt towards him, knowing the extent to which I’ve upended a really lovely guy’s life, and then the next minute resentment, anger at his immature behaviour towards me (he is emotionally completely closed and won’t talk to me/ hasn’t disclosed his limerence but I one hundred per cent know thats what’s eating him up as he has transformed from a lovely sweet innocent guy to a rude and disrespectful person I barely recognise any more). He hasn’t considered for a second how this affects me as I don’t think he realises I am in the grip of the same reaction, and limerence is of course selfish. I’ve been NC for 5 months and I’m trying to move on..
Cornflakes,
Interesting, as in that your situation seems mine, only more aggravated. My LO isn’t disrespectful or outright rude, but I think part of his un-empathic behavior might stem from his limerence, it’s a very weak form of what you describe.
But on the other side, I might be wrong and he‘s just like that, limerent or not.
I think we shouldn’t make too many excuses for them. We can understand what’s going on and not putting blame on them.
But we ourselves are ruminating so much about how to behave, we feel, as you said, tenderness and compassion- I think it‘s not asked too much that they check their behavior too, and where‘s their tenderness and compassion?
You say limerence is selfish, I agree, but you still seem less selfish than your LO, although limerent.
I won’t go NC because I feel that my limerence is ending anyway and I want to keep him in my life as he will move away from our town next year, but I don’t aim for very close friendship anymore, simply because my idea of close friendship seems to be different from his.
I wish you luck with your LE- sometimes I think it is actually a blessing that they are behaving badly because if they were impeccable and compassionate, it would be much harder to get out of the limerence…
@Mila.
Yes, Whatsapp contact can be an issue with LE – the process of posting something and expecting a commensurate response, and then getting disturbed when it does not come. You are also right that perhaps LO may be exercising restraint as they are fighting their own battle (mutual limerence). Hard to know for sure, is it not. I would say it may be helpful to dial back on the messages, if possible, and to minimize expectation, in terms of message responses. It would be hard at first, but you will feel better in due course of time. Good luck.
Hi ABCD,
luckily I already did what you recommend, and I think I‘m mostly out of the limerence. I just find it a bit hard to decide whether the residues of expectations/judgement of his texts are residues of limerence, or whether he really is not that much of a good friend at the moment.
But I don’t really ruminate over it, which is a good sign.
@ Mila
I hope you don’t mind if I summarise my understanding of where you are at? You are mostly out of limerence but want to keep the friendship (if I understand correctly?).
Your situation is a bit unusual because of the friendship coming first. Then you had romantic feelings. Now you want to keep the friendship only. But you are struggling as he is not being a very good friend to you at the moment, possibly due to mutual limerence, or possibly due to passive personality. The issue you are having is how to think about all of this. I also assume that the underlying reason he is being so passive (whether mutually limerent or just an excessively passive friend) is quite important for how you think you should feel and react.
If I think about it and try to put myself in your shoes, a few things strike me: firstly, there is no way I would want my LO to ever be a friend. Its all or nothing and romantic only feelings are what I want from them. I have been in the situation in the past where a long-term boyfriend became my ‘best mate’ and I felt that romance was missing, it taught me a lesson about what I wanted in a partner.
Wanting only friendship from your LO actually simplifies matters. He’s not relying on you, nor you on him. True friends are there when needed but not necessarily there all the time.
Maybe you can view him as someone who is
A) a friend, +
B) being quite annoying right now (too passive)
Your compassion / annoyance reaction due to his lack of engagement is also, as you rightly identified, irrelevant because you have to put yourself first. If his poor engagement as a friend means that you are feeling depressed and low about him, as a friend, you can disengage a bit. Even if he is doing it out of limerence, he will appreciate your effort because responding with emojis could be a strategy on his part, if that were true. Even if it means that your friendly connection is on a less frequent footing and much “cooler” temperature setting for a while, it won’t harm him. So, there would be no need to feel excessively compassionate. After all, friends forgive each other for these things and are there ‘when needed’.
(Re)identfying with the romantic connection one has with one’s SO is obviously a parallel objective for me in my life and possibly for you too? Friends are friends but lovers are different….
I hope that this does not upset you in any way. I am sending all my best to you. I know that it is easy to see logically on paper what is going on but not to feel it with your heart….
Bewitched,
your summary is absolut perfect and I‘m very grateful for your post, because it not only was spot on, but got me thinking.
He was my friend before limerence, but not as close as now. Limerence started when we knew that we wouldn’t work together any more (he changes jobs).
I panicked because he was my absolutely best work mate, and that led to limerence. He was scared to leave and, I think, this led at least to something like limerence on his side.
It meant that we had a lot of contact and the friendship intensified a lot.
Now I stopped the limerence on quite a high level of contact, and without the limerence fog I see some things on him that I don’t like that much but that were probably there all the time- I just hadn’t noticed them because at first we were not close enough, and then I was limerent.
But it still could be that he feels rejected by my reduction of contact and that’s the reason for his behavior? But I noticed this behavior even before ..
You see, my mind is still working;)
You are absolutely right with A and B.
My resentment of his passivity and lack of concern stems from the fact that he‘s still too much in the foreground of my thoughts.
I should see him as a friend who‘s just at the moment not able to bring much into the friendship.
While still limerent I aimed for the close friendship we had, just without limerence. Now I think, this closeness was part of the LE and is not possible or advisable without it. It‘s a bit sad, but quite possibly true.
I cannot say, like you if I remember it right, that my LEs were good for my connection with SO. Maybe the tided me over some difficult times and saved us some serious fights because I was distracted, but now that I‘m limerent-free I feel closer to SO and more peaceful.
Bewitched, thank you for your post, it‘s really good to read the situation in clear words from someone outside! It clears the mind!
Little update just for me-
I had a WhatsApp chat with him just now that riled me again. He really triggers me with his Emoji-instead-answers the very instant some slight effort would be required to answer!
I think my dislike is also a counter-reaction to the limerent feelings from before, I have to be careful not to overdo it in the other direction (sorry for my English, don’t know how to say it).
Then I feel I should take a break and not write any more, but I don’t want to come across petulant and unfair. His way of writing seems a bit petulant to me, for instance. I don’t want to be like that.
Yes!
Damn that social media, right?
Your mood for the day is whether they like, comment or message you
Absolutely ridiculous!!!
I knew how our EA was gonna go, but I got caught up in it anyway
Oh, did I mention I attract narcissists? hahaha
Our contact diminished over the last month
So I was either put on the shelf, casually discarded or downright just tossed in the trash
But, I knew that was going to happen
I hung on anyway, gobbling up the breadcrumbs which I hated myself for
I went complete NC a couple days ago and I’m doing ok!
Possibly because I did see it coming
No more glimmer for me! twice is quite enough!
Thanks to you all and this site
So appreciative!
~Anna
@Anna.
Yes, agreed. Social media just makes getting over LE harder. It’s great that you’re doing better. I have also experienced that NC works quite well, as long as one can do it.
@ABCD
It’s tougher than anything I’ve ever had to overcome in my life
#justdoit
~Anna
@Anna
Yes, agree with you, same here. Will cheer for you.
ABCD.
@ABCD
Thank you!
I most appreciate the cheers
So glad I found this group, it has helped immensely
I had no clue what was happening to me
~Anna
@Mila.
I am sorry your last Whatsapp interaction was unpleasant. If I may say so, it may be a good idea to lay off the chats for a bit or to dial back on them, you know, give some cooling time. Perhaps you can evaluate at that later time how you feel. Your mental health is your priority, even if it means not chatting for a while. Just my 2 cents. Sorry if I made an inappropriate suggestion.
ABCD,
you are right, of course. Maybe you understand that it will come across quite abrupt and rude if I quit texting altogether. I kind of need it for my mental health to feel mature and not feel in the wrong, and I don’t want to do something that obvious or rude that he starts asking why.
So I think I will just stop initiating conversations but reply when he does. I can reply with Emojis too;)
The feeling I have is that he won’t text for a while anyway.
Evaluating a later time what I feel is an excellent advice, thank you.
@Mila.
Of course, you are right. Quitting abruptly can be tricky. Reducing the frequency of messaging or responding only when initiated are also good options. Good luck!
Hey fellow limerents! I haven’t been around for awhile but I was thinking of making a post on here because I was curious about something, and then I read this blog post and I was interested where Dr L wrote that one of the barriers to overcoming limerence is trusting intuition too much, because that relates to what I was going to post about…
Anyway, I’ve been studying a lot recently about MBTI personality types and also the Enneagram, and thinking about if certain types are more likely to struggle with limerence than others. Do any of you know your MBTI type? I took a test recently (actually because LO sent me a link to take it after she took it) and got INFP as a result, which reading the profile totally fits me. And I was thinking that this seems like a personality type that would be really susceptible to LEs because as an introvert I have a rich internal fantasy life, as an NF I rely much more on feeling and intuition as opposed to logical thinking, and as a P (perceiver rather than J for judger) I’m more comfortable with grey areas in life and morality. So it kinda seems like the perfect combination of personality traits to get caught up in LEs.
It was actually really interesting learning about my MBTI type and also learning my LO’s personality type (she’s an ISTJ) and reading about how our two types tend to interact in relationships… it actually explained A LOT of what’s happened between us over the last year and made a lot of things make sense to me.
I also took an enneagram test and got type 2, and LO took it and got type 6, which I think are totally correct for both of us as well, and again reading about relationships between types I learned that these two types often end up being drawn to each other and everything I read about relationships between these types explained a lot about our history as well – I read this one article about relationships between 2s and 6s and it was like reading a history of me and LO’s relationship, it was kinda spooky but it also just showed how even though we feel like our experiences are unique, so much of what we do in life is actually just totally predictable by our psychology.
One outcome of all the studying I’ve been doing about this is that it’s actually helped to lessen the intensity of my limerence and decrease some of the distress symptoms by providing explanations for why she’s acting certain ways, why I’m acting certain ways, why our relationship has the ebbs and flows, pushes and pulls that it has. It’s taken some of the mystery out of it, and as a result has decreased my anxieties and feelings of distress, which is good because LO ended up NOT leaving our workplace after all and now it looks like we’re going to be working together for a couple more years, so we really do have to find a way to manage this as well as possible for awhile yet.
Anyway, I’m really curious if anyone else has any experience with this stuff, and if anyone would feel comfortable sharing their MBTI and enneagram types (and their LO’s if known). And if you don’t know yours but want to find out, or if you just want to find out what the hell I’m talking about, check out these two websites where you can take free tests and learn more:
https://www.16personalities.com
https://personalitypath.com/free-enneagram-personality-test/
Hope everyone’s doing ok out there!
“Anyway, I’m really curious if anyone else has any experience with this stuff, and if anyone would feel comfortable sharing their MBTI and enneagram types (and their LO’s if known).”
MBTI comes up regularly on LwL. Enneagrams, not so much. People have different takes on them.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/do-they-like-me-too/#comment-1310 – there are 4 posts in that string
https://livingwithlimerence.com/how-common-is-limerence/ – This blog is all about limerence and MBTI type
https://livingwithlimerence.com/introvert-limerents/#comment-2253
https://thoughtcatalog.com/lacey-ramburger/2018/03/here-is-the-poem-you-absolutely-need-based-on-your-myers-briggs-personality-type/ [I wish I could remember more posters MBTI types – I’m ENTJ]
https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-purposeful-living-reading-list/#comment-29773
https://livingwithlimerence.com/case-study-spiritually-reinforcing-limerence/#comment-6208
https://livingwithlimerence.com/what-causes-obsession-with-another-person/#comment-29651
I looked back over some stuff and I’m and Enneagram 8w7.
I’m sure I missed more than a few.
As always your encyclopedic knowledge of LwL history is impressive and appreciated! Thanks for all these links. The one from 2020 with the graph showing the survey results of percentage of each MBTI type that experienced limerence confirmed my suspicion that us INFx types are especially prone to it (like 5 times higher than most other types), but also showed that limerence is something that can happen to every type.
When I first encountered the enneagram I was super skeptical- my first impression was that it looked totally unscientific and just kind of made up, but after taking some tests and reading more about my type (2) I felt like it gave me a lot of insight into myself regardless of how “scientific” it is.
Enneagram type 2 is called the “helper” – this type lives to help other people. This sounds great, but it turns out that the desire to be helpful comes from a place of neediness and insecurity that’s really not so great. Type 2s feel a constant insecurity and need to feel appreciated and loved, and try to earn love and appreciation through acts of service to others, and are easily hurt if people don’t respond by showing love and appreciation. We try to arrange our relationships so that the other person needs our help constantly, so that then we’ll feel that we can always be assured of being appreciated and loved. So on the surface we can seem really selfless and giving, but inside can be insecure and needy to the point of even being manipulative.
That wasn’t so nice to read, but I know it’s really true for me and I can see so many examples in my relationships with both SO and LO, and my triggers for LEs in general, ie how any time I feel like I’m not getting a steady input of love and appreciation from SO, I go seeking it from other women and tend to use acts of service as a way to earn their affection (this has been a feature of all of my LEs)
A nice thing about enneagram theory is that it offers help for improving and becoming healthier, including the idea that a healthy version of each type integrates the best parts of another type – for type 2s, we can strive to integrate into type 4s. Type 4 is the “individualist”, creative and artistic, sure of themselves and not needing validation from others. So that’s one of the big things I’ve been working on recently is bringing out my type 4 traits – doing more creative things, trying to internally validate myself instead of seeking it from others – and also trying to be more aware of the dark side of my type 2 feelings and behaviors and trying to catch myself when I’m trying to earn love by being helpful.
I am ESFJ which is a Consul but also fairly low on the limerent chart. I am also a type 2 Enneagram and being a helper and people pleaser fits me perfectly. I have always sought the affection of women, not necessarily for romantic purposes, but also to feel validated in my helping nature.
BTW…good to hear from you LIS. Hope all is well, beyond the day in day out struggle with limerence.
LIS,
Thanks!
When I told LO #4 that I was resigning as a moderator on her site, she said it would be hard to find someone with my “encyclopedic knowledge” of the material on her site. It was one of the things that drew her to me when I started posting on her site.
Not only was I reading her material, I was reading between the lines and that’s when all the trouble began.
I don’t expect that will happen on LwL.
I also checked out the post with the graph- interesting that INFJ seem to be prone to limerence and ISFJ not at all, and that I tested as INFJ during my limerence , and now that it’s basically over, I test as ISFJ ☺️
Well, that’s odd–I tested as ISFJ years ago, and there’s rarely been a time in my life where I haven’t been crushing on somebody. Maybe I should take it again….
Thank you LiS. Nice to see your post.
I’ll check it out..
@LIS.
Thanks, will check these tests out.
ABCD.
Hi LIS,
We miss you here. Hope you’re doing fine.
I’m a ISFJ-A Defender, personality type.
I don’t know if that’s good or bad.
A beautiful weekend to all Limerents!
I took the test in my language a few months ago where it said INFJ-T, and now it says ISFJ-T. I guess it‘s partly a bit up to ones current mood and how one wants to see him/herself 😉
Also, in the Eneagram thing I got 9. I don’t really agree full heartedly…I‘m not THAT nice and unselfish:)
I got miss typed on a lot of the internet tests as an INFJ and it never felt right. I could relate to most of the things about that personality but something seemed off. Doing some research online I found that a lot of the online tests miss type ISFJ’s as INFJ. When I got ISFJ on a test and read the results I could see more of myself in that personality type than INFJ. So that is not uncommon.
The Ennegram test was a landslide result for me at 9. Every time I have taken it the result is 9. Not sure if it is the structure of how these online tests are done as to why one gets more reliable results and the other doesn’t.
Adam,
so we are both ISFJ and 9?
I find some things that fit me in ISFJ and INFJ, but also some that don’t really fit in both.
Basically I feel that they are much too benevolent descriptions😆..
I find that most sites overplay the “selflessness” aspect of ISFJ’s. I like to read “Psychology Junkie” and “Personality Growth” when it comes to the MBTI. They both write pretty accurately regarding personality types. Though I have read some on ESFJ’s just out of curiosity to see what extroverted me would be like and I annoy myself lol Way too obnoxious. Definitely am not an extrovert. And I am sure everyone thanks me for it.
I haven’t read much up on Ennegram types. The bit I have read doesn’t make much sense to me. The research seems less extensive or doesn’t make as much natural sense to me as MBTI. But that I type as the same personality, basically, on both tests seems to conclude I am who I am.
Hi Lost in Space, it’s good to hear from you. I hope you’re well. I hope you had a good 1/2 marathon experience if it already happened or I hope your training is going well if it hasn’t. Sorry to change the subject, but I want your thoughts about something.
My ultra marathon is coming soon. I’ve been training since May and I talk about it a lot. Last night I read the participant list and saw LO3’s name on it. He didn’t tell me that he registered. I asked him about it and he said he doesn’t remember signing up and he doesn’t plan to be there. He even canceled it and doesn’t show up on the list anymore. I believe that he forgot because he signed up for a difficult run the following weekend and I don’t think he would do both runs one week apart. However, it bothers me that he signed up without telling me. He knows that event is the focus of my training. We talk about it multiple times per week. Maybe he forgot that he signed up, but back when he signed up, he knew and he listened to me talk about it without mentioning that he would be there, too. I want to address this with him. It’s not the first time that he registered for one of my races. He did it one other time, but I couldn’t attend because I had an out-of-state wedding to attend. He played it cool and appeared to not remember that I had been planning to attend that race. Anyway, it’s okay if we run in the same races. My SO said he doesn’t mind because there are so many other people around during a race. But it really bugs me that he didn’t tell me. I want to address it with LO3. I want to tell him that I would love to run with him in a race and my SO already gave me permission to do it. But I want him to tell me if he signs up for one of my races. I didn’t like finding out on my own and I don’t want to be surprised on race day. Am I wrong? I also want to ask him to check his credit card statement and find the date that he signed up for the race. I’m sure that is asking too much, but I would feel so much better if it was before May and he forgot before I started talking about it. This is highly unlikely, but it’s my best-case-scenario. Anyway, I already talked to SO about it and he didn’t like the situation, but he likes how both LO3 and I handled it. SO isn’t worried. I would love to hear your thoughts about this. If LO3 had participated, we would have spent all day running together. That is a lot of alone-ish time with Lovisa. I’m okay with it, in fact, I would enjoy it, but not as a surprise. Thanks for your thoughts in advance! I would love to hear the thoughts of the other commenters, too.
To answer your question, Lost in Space, I am an INFJ. I’ve never heard of the other thing you mentioned, but it sounds interesting.
It’s so good to see you here!
-Lovisa
Lovisa!! Good to chat with you again! I ended up developing a bad case of Achilles tendinitis and had to pull out of my 1/2 marathon training. I’m just starting to get back into running again now. It’s been surprisingly ok though, I’ve actually been doing more reading, playing music and even a little painting.
Regarding your question… I can totally understand all the things you’re feeling – I think if I was in your shoes the strongest feeling I’d have would be regret about not getting to spend all that time together running the race, followed by irritation about him not telling me and a burning desire to know his actual motivations for signing up, not telling me he’d signed up, and then cancelling. Does that sound about right?
Regarding the disappointment about the missed opportunity to spend time together, I guess that’s just par for the course for our situations, right. Like there’s so many times I wish I could spend more time with my LO, but I know I can’t out of respect to our SOs, so I just have to content myself with the interactions we do have, and know that it’ll never feel like enough. But remember, even if you had gotten to spend a few hours running with him, nothing would fundamentally change, you’d have a big high from all the time spent with him, followed by a likely crash, and probably worsening of your limerence. Plus, your SO probably would be hurt by it, even if he says it’s ok. So it’s probably actually for the best that he cancelled.
Regarding his motivations and when he signed up and all that… who knows. You’ll never know. Even if you ask him directly and he tells you something, you won’t really know, and whatever answers you get won’t really change anything. So probably my best advice would be to just let it go, let it go, let it go…
Btw my wife and my psychologist are both INFJs – y’all are good people 🙂
-LiS
Thanks, Lost in Space! That helps a lot. I think you’re right that I will never get a satisfying answer and I should let it go. I will do that. Thank you!
I was quite relieved when LO3 canceled because it would have been hard on my SO. The race is an ultra trail run. I will be running at sunrise and still running at sunset. My SO is my pit crew at two aid stations which might have been uncomfortable if LO3 were there. I don’t know. The two were fine together before limerence started. They both respect each other. Maybe they would be fine now. I really don’t know. But I think you are right that my SO may pretend to be okay even if he’s not.
Achilles tendinitis Stinks. I’m glad you’re at the tail end of it. I know you are a doctor and you will probably roll your eyes when I say this, but there is a physical therapist on YouTube with some great videos! His name is Jared something and his videos are called “Tone and Tighten.” He is my go-to for injuries. I also like to do the ankle ABCs when my ankles don’t feel right. Can you believe my nerve that I would make medical recommendations to a doctor? Go ahead, roll your eyes, Dr Lost in Space. I deserve it.
I hope your family is well!
-Lovisa
Lovisa – Haha you’d be shocked how little training medical doctors get in physical therapy and sports medicine. I’ve learned a lot more about rehabbing sports injuries from my own athletic activities than I ever did in medical school. I’ll take advice from another athlete over advice from like 95% of doctors when it comes to managing sports injuries! I’ll definitely check out those videos, thanks!
Oddly these things are evaluated for a dating app I’m on. I am an INFP on the MBTI and a Type 2 Wing 3 on the enneagram. I have no idea what LO’s are.
The early limerences I had when I was young all faded away when I moved away and the LOs faded out of my life. IT TOOK A WHILE, but it happened.
My initial limerence with LO1 went away by itself when we truly became friends. I relapsed a decade later, and that went away when
My initial limerence with LO2 went away when I got married. I relapsed a decade later, which cured my relapse with LO1. The relapse with LO2 went away when we had an EA and it got to where it had to stop. But it was hard.
Right now I’m in a downphase with LO3 where it isn’t as bad. I suspect it’s cyclical and it will get bad again. But maybe it’s going away! One can hope. In this case, it seems to get better if I see him more often; it dislodges the fantasy person in my head.
I do think there is something to “transference” to me. Sometimes to another romantic interest, sometimes to someone who’s just a close friend, sometimes to an activity or lifestyle. Limerence seems to lessen if something else takes over my mind. Unfortunately, it all seems to be something that “just happens” to me, not something I can control. But at least I feel better at the moment.
Hi Bridgelover,
Just curious, what do you transfer your current LE on?
I transferred my two first LEs on other LOs. This time the LE just ended, I think the experience of the other LEs and the knowledge about limerence from this site helped.
But now I‘m a bit scared that there‘s something inside me that is at a loose end now and searches for the next LE…
transferring to a lifestyle, preferably a healthy one😆sounds great to me..
Maybe one could try to actively choose the transference to a lifestyle/activity, as you said?
I am, in part, transferring LE to someone I’m romantically interested in in a non-limerent way. This one probably isn’t going to work out either, but it’s at least getting my mind off LO.
Bridgelover,
Wow, I don’t know if it would be possible for me to pursue a romantic interest without diving headlong into limerence, but you seem to be able to handle it!
I wish you good luck!
@Mila, I would say about half of my lifetime romantic interests have been limerent and the other half non-limerent. Crucially, the limerent interests are ambiguous, uncertain, and have some barrier. The non-limerent interests are more clear-cut and there is no reason we can’t be together, or if there is a reason, it’s a clear reason. Also, the limerent interests are in people who really trip my trigger, while the non-limerent interests are more of a slow burn. All of the people I have ACTUALLY BEEN WITH not just in my head have been non-limerent romantic interests. It’d be fun to be with a limerent interest and compare the two, but it hasn’t happened (yet).
Interesting, Bridgelover!
Before I knew about limerence, I just took the limerent feelings as signs of falling in love.
There is an overlapping, for sure. It depends maybe on the definition of limerence- if one calls it limerence only if it gets out of proportion or if you call the giddiness and all-consuming thoughts of the beginning of a love „limerence“.
In the latter sense, I‘ve never had relationships without this first limerent phase. Also my marriage to SO started with very strong feelings. I don’t think I could do it without having this phase.
But then limerence does impair your judgement of LO, and I think I was very lucky that my SO stayed a unique and wonderful person even after the pink glasses were off.
Hi all. Thought I’d ask you all for help. Currently, I am trying to get over LE, but as other members have posted, social media is a big challenge. It’s really hard to resist the strong urge to check for her validation in terms of responses or likes to my messages. I am trying to avoid checking social media, but it becomes very hard sometimes. Any suggestions that may be helpful? Thanks in advance!
I‘m probably the wrong person to answer because I have/had similar problems.
It‘s tough because checking social media is in itself addictive and became a replacement for real interaction with LO. It’s the perfect condition for addiction, the act of clicking on social media is sometimes rewarded with some sign of LO and sometimes not, so we repeat the action over and over.
Maybe you should really clarify it to yourself that with every click you reinforce the addiction.
You could set yourself a limit (only check it once in the evening) or you could be radical and erase the whole App for a while.
Or you try to replace the clicking activity by something purposeful, cross something from your to-do-list, walk round the block, think immediately of something else (Christmas gifts, what to do on the weekend..)
Maybe someone else has more useful advice, as I said, I had a hard time controlling my online-status-checking etc during LEs…
Thanks, Mila. What you say is very true. The act of checking social media, even without LE, is pretty addictive. Sometimes when I get the sudden urge, I try to take deep breaths, and distract myself, by going out for a walk or by listening to music. Slowly the urge goes away, only to return later :). Setting a time limit is a great idea, if that does not help, deleting the app may be called for. In a sense, this is similar to other addictions like alcohol, where abstaining can be very hard.
ABCD hi,
You have the need to check the media because you have this person (LO) constantly in your mind. It’s not the media’s fault. It’s your thoughts you have to control, divert to other interests, like a new LO , sports, hobbies, helping out in the community etc. If one doesn’t get busy with something or someone else interesting that catches all your attention, intrusive thoughts will invade your mind unexpectedly all the time. I say this because I have these intrusive thoughts daily, nowadays, regardless of how busy I get into other things. And LO is not in any media channels that I can check up. I cannot blame the media for my backsliding. For I have total NC and no visibility of LO. So, I figure this is something that is ingrained, stamped in my thoughts patterns and I can’t help it.
Having a terrible melancholy and sorrow lately, after I was doing fine a few months ago. I feel defeated by this situation. I’m questioning everything in my life and what wrong or right choices I have made in my entire life and trying to come to terms with it. I just feel I made a great mistake to let LO go, fifty years ago, go figure, ( he was my SO for three years then in a mutual reciprocal exclusive relationship). I have an SO now for 46 years, but I wasn’t limerent for him, though he is a wonderful SO, I still think I didn’t give myself the opportunity to grief or mourn for the loss of my previous SO, ( now Lo) and should have stayed single for a longer period of time, and look or seek for other relationships then, instead I got married, although at the time I thought that’s what I really wanted: to settle down… Little that you know that your past comes to revisit you in the most weird of circumstances: limererence!, to shake your whole world and life apart. And there’s nothing you can do about it now that you’re old. So be wise and discerning , we are a work in progress, always evolving until we die.
Best wishes to all, and be wise…
Hi @ABCD
I am sorry to hear that you are suffering a bad bout in your limerence right now.
I think different things work for different people. I agree with what Mila said that the social media itself is very addictive. So setting a time aside each day when you check and making sure that you have plenty of distraction the rest of the time really is a great suggestion.
Regarding distraction, this is easier said than done. In addition to the excellent suggestions that you have already mentioned / heard such as music and exercise, I would say that something that helps me is to get into pleasant daydreams. I know that music and daydreaming can lead to LO reverie which can lead to LO rumination BUT I think that even if this is happening about LO, it is a possible down-ramp to reducing frequency of problems caused by text or social media checking and rechecking. If we wean ourselves off the latter, using the distraction tactics that we actually enjoy (daydreaming), I think the pain subsides a bit, which has positive reinforcement, at least in my case. Before too long, I find myself having reveries about things other than my LO. Its just a suggestion and it might be risky for you. But maybe you could try it. Its really important to reduce the social media and text checking at the same time, obviously. And I always try to keep the daydreaming to the pleasant rather than unpleasant ruminations (alternative negative interpretations of past interactions, for instance).
I also know that what I am suggesting is a possible set-back for some people so I am slightly wary of even going there. But, I also know that cold turkey has never worked for me in the years that I have been living with this particular LE. I think a few other LwL-ers have said that this is the case for them as well…..
Sending super-positive vibes to you. I hope that you have a better day today.
Thanks, Bewitched for the very helpful advice. As a matter of fact, I have done the daydreaming and music (with LO into the mix), and it has actually worked well for me. You are right that this can be a slippery slope, so I stopped doing this for some time now, thinking it may sink me further. Will give it another shot and see how it goes.
Thanks so much to everyone here, gratitude to each one of you.
@Nisor. Many thanks. I am sorry for how are feeling currently. I hope that you feel better soon. I have also experienced these waves where I feel quite good for some time, and then back to melancholy. Am trying to divert to other interests, hope things improve eventually.
Hi everyone,
I haven’t been here for a while; it felt as if it was reminding me about LO all the time. It’s been two and a half months since I last had any kind of contact with my previous LO (I call him that because I don’t want to have him as an LO so I don’t want to call him a ‘current’ LO) and since I disclosed to my SO. It’s been a rocky time for us but we’ve come out stronger and closer. I’ve started therapy and my brain is working away in the background trying to help me with past trauma and current feelings of shame and lack of self-worth. A lot of that is related to limerence and also exacerbates it.
I don’t know if in future I will be able to feel attraction to people and feel they are attracted to me without becoming limerent but that’s the goal. It would be so freeing.
Anyway, just to say time with absolute NC has helped enormously. I now go for days without LO even coming into my head. I know I will have to see him again in about a month because he’s in the play my SO is doing, and I worry how I will feel and react. It’s quite scary. I’d rather never see him again but once I’ve done it the first time hopefully it will be easier. I have no idea how he feels. It was a mutual attraction but I have a feeling he was much more able to put it aside. It doesn’t matter anyway as far as my work on myself goes.
Anyway, to the subject of the blog post, the thing that always made it so hard to get over an LE for me was my resignation that there was no hope, that I didn’t have a choice, that I just kept falling into these awful painful situations and couldn’t do anything about it. And the only thing that made it better was giving in to the rush. Even though I knew intellectually I could change my actions, when it came down to it I just couldn’t. Therapy is helping me to look at the reasons for that. I’m hoping that even if I remain a limerent personality, I will have the self-knowledge and confidence in who I am and what I need, to acknowledge the glimmer, sit with it but not act on it.
I hope you’re all doing OK. I’m sorry you’re still in the throes, MJ. I’ve been thinking of you.
C4C,
I refer to past LOs as XLOs.
It sounds like you’re making great progress!
Have you read https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-death-of-hope/?
Welcome back C forC,
I was wondering how you are after your courageous disclosure to your SO!
I think you can be very proud of yourself for that and for the work on yourself with a therapist. I think you did all the right things, which is amazing, in my opinion..
C4Cat
Good to hear from you. I have been wondering how your situation is going. But I understand what you mean by visiting LwL. I have myself cut back on posting and visiting as my wife and I work on our marriage and I work on myself. It’s a double edged sword here for some of us limerents. Best of luck with your limerence at your husband’s play.
I can very much relate to your stumbling block to overcoming limerence. It’s what I struggle/struggled with.
Hi C for Cat! You have come far in your progress towards recovery. I am impressed!
In my opinion, anticipation is worse than the actual experience. For example, I bribed my daughter to summit a mountain with me in exchange for a ride on a sling shot. We were at the saddle when she said she would only finish the hike if I agreed to join her in the flying ball of death. Desperate to help my daughter achieve a difficult goal, I agreed. (I didn’t think she would actually make it to the summit, but she did). The next day we drove to the amusement park and put our names on the list for riding the slingshot. From the moment we left the summit until we were flinging into outer space, I was full of anxiety. But guess what, I loved it. That ride is awesome! The anticipation was awful, but the actual experience was great. I suspect things won’t be as bad as you think when you see your former LO. I love that he isn’t a “current LO.”
I like what you said about how you used to feel hopeless to keep yourself out of difficult situations, but your perspective is changing. It’s so great that you are getting therapy and that your SO is supportive.
Best wishes!
-Lovisa
Hi Ms. Lovisa,
Nice to see you back. You’ve been missed..
🤗🤗
Aww, thanks MJ! It’s good to see you, too.
I hope things work out with your strike at work.
Please forgive my ignorance if you’ve talked about this lately, but how is your dad?
Best wishes!
-Lovisa
He’s not great but not terrible. He was diagnosed with Parkinsons so now it’s just a slow deterioration on his movement and even his memory on some days. He has caretakers in the house about 12 hours out of the day but they don’t do much caring actually. None of them seem to know how to do the simplest of things, like wash dishes or laundry, so we are considering cutting maybe half their hours because it’s just not worth what they are getting paid.
Spirit wise, he is still good. Seems to have accepted his situation better now and we have some things in order for when the inevitable happens. I get over there at night to make sure he has dinner and gets into bed. It can feel overwhelming sometimes because I’m an only child but I don’t really have a choice.
I don’t normally update on here either because it’s not topic related and nobody ever really asks, but it’s fine. I appreciate seeing you on here again and your concern. Hope you’ll stick around. Then you can know when I actually get back to work. That being said, you can then clobber me over the head for my lack of LO interaction.. Always liked your motherly approach. 🤗🤗
lol, I don’t think I’ll be clobbering anyone over the head, MJ. But thanks for the laugh.
It’s so hard to watch a parent deteriorate. My mom was an incredible example of strength and competence, but her dementia is changing her. My brothers are doing a great job of taking care of her. I’m so proud of them. I love seeing them step up and take responsibility. I didn’t know how much I would enjoy watching my siblings be “adults” until I saw them respond to my mom’s needs. It’s a neat experience. I’m sorry that you don’t have siblings to help with the care of your dad. It would be so hard to carry this alone. I’m sorry you haven’t found good caregivers either. That is frustrating! Hang in there, MJ. I believe in you. You will find solutions and this will be a growth opportunity.
Thanks for the update and kind words.
-Lovisa
MJ, I almost forgot to mention that my mom’s memory is strongly affected by her diet. If her blood sugar is in check, she behaves more like her normal self. If she eats like a 9-year-old, she behaves like a 9-year-old. You might want to look into the Mediterranean diet or diets for diabetes. Even if your dad doesn’t have diabetes, he might benefit from watching his blood sugar at his age. Maybe go heavy on lean protein and veggies. Maybe avoid refined carbohydrates? Just a thought.
I know it’s tricky because food can be a source of comfort and pleasure. I took care of a man with Parkinson’s when I worked as a CNA in high school. His favorite time of day was when I fed him ice cream. It would have been too hard to take ice cream away from him even if it helped his symptoms because it made him so happy. It’s a tricky balance. But, that man ate his vegetables and normal food as his primary source of nutrition. The ice cream was a treat. Unfortunately, my mom will eat ice cream and then refuse to eat healthy stuff. So I guess these things need to be worked out on an individual basis. Anyway, you know your dad.
You got this, MJ!
Thank you. My Father’s favorite snack is Pumpkin pie. He can’t get enough of it, it seems. Other than that, he doesn’t snack on a lot of junk. I Appreciate your diet tips. See you around 💖
Hey Cat, so good to hear from you. No things aren’t great here but I’ve been worse. I’m like the way I am because I’m stubborn. But I appreciate you thinking of me. I’ve been thinking of you too. I haven’t been on here as much lately either. I’m currently on strike at work, so there isn’t much LO contact as of late and I miss seeing her.
Sounds like you’re doing better with the therapy. It’s probably still a work in progress but you’ll probably be fine. At least you have a supportive SO. That’s huge, so keep up the good work.
Hi C for Cat,
I was wondering about how things are nowadays with you. I’m glad you’re moving forward with great courage and purpose.
You’re a very dedicated and good student. And I wish all the best to you and SO, you deserve it, for you seem to be a wonderful and sensitive person.
Have a great weekend.
A short poem by Richard Brautigan:
TOWARD THE PLEASURES OF A RECONSTITUTED CROW
Toward the pleasures of a reconstituted crow
I collect darkness within myself like the shadow
of a blind lighthouse.
[Loading Mercury With A Pitchfork, 1976}
Miss Lovisa you’re back again!!!!! Ive missed your posts. I hope you stay a bit longer this time. I hope that you and your family are doing well. I have been trying to make good progress and I miss your sweet words that always made me feel better. Hope your new job is going well. I know you are the perfect person for it. Helping people in dire straights is your instinct and biggest strength.
Hi Adam, it’s so good to hear from you. I miss you, too. I don’t spend nearly as much time here as I used to, but I peak in periodically. It sounds like you and Momma have had some deep, overdue conversations. I hope you were able to reassure her insecurities. My husband needed to know that he is still my first choice even though I had limerence for other men. I think Momma needs the same reassurance. This morning I told him that if we lined up all the men in the whole world and I could pick any of them, I would choose him. He liked that. I also meant it. He is my favorite person in the whole world.
Thanks for the well wishes. I didn’t end up taking that job because it would be a 1.5-hour commute each direction at least once a week. My SO and I just couldn’t justify that commute. Also, I need to confess something, that job was being created for me at LO3’s business. (Speedy is going to gasp at the scandalous thought). To be fair, I am uniquely qualified for what he wanted me to do, but I recognize that it might not be wise for the two of us to see each other regularly. So, I don’t work. I’m still just a house wife. I might substitute teach or work for LO2’s friend, but right now I just do chores and run.
Anyway, my family is great! The kids are enjoying their activities and doing well in school. I mean well for their skill-level. My youngest struggles with comprehension. It’s a little frustrating because I’m confident that her struggles stem from her birth-mom’s drug use during pregnancy. I know her birth-mom couldn’t understand how much her drug use affected her baby, but it still bothers me sometimes. Anyway, I don’t mean to sound ungrateful. I love my kids and I’m grateful for them.
How is your son’s lady friend? Did I miss any big news?
It’s so good to chat with you, Adam! Please tell Momma hi for me if she doesn’t read this.
-Miss Lovisa
Miss Lovisa!!!!
I was just replying to Limmy and telling her how glad I am all my favorite ladies are coming back to posting. Maybe Summer will come back too.
Last week I was sick with covid all week and we had a lot of time to talk. And we did. And I got out of myself a lot of things that I had been holding back. It’s all out there now and she still is by my side. So I have to work myself through what I have felt and own myself to her. She deserves it. I wouldn’t be alive without her and we wouldn’t have the two young gentleman that I am so proud to call my sons if it weren’t for her. They are better than their old man because of her.
And in your absence Nisor has been keeping me on the straight and narrow, so no worries. I’ve read more scripture than I have in a while. And it’s been nice and comforting.
I understand about the job but am crest fallen it worked out that way. I know how well you are with helping people if only by my own case. You have a touch and a heart that most people don’t have. And a lot of people take for granted. Bless you Miss Lovia.
I am glad to hear your family is doing well. I think of them as my own and understand their needs. You are wonderful caring mother! They are very fortunate to have you in their lives.
As far as I know they are well together. He has since moved out of his dorm and is living with two roommates in a house by the college he goes to. He now owns a car and has a license so I don’t have to uber him everywhere without pay lol She might be my daughter in law on day.
And off I go as today is our 24 year anniversary! So I will totally tell Momma you said HI Miss Lovisa. Take care. So glad to hear from you!
Adam, it sounds like things are going well. Happy Anniversary, Momma and Adam!
Happy Anniversary Adam and Momma.
How about a little groovy King Floyd to set the mood right??
Thank you Miss Lovisa. 🙂
MJ Good call. I think I went for some Marvin Gaye or Barry White. My especial favorite of his.
Practice What You Preach — Barry White
https://youtu.be/br-Dy3puDoc?si=e7aknXmqlPZJ7_AB
That’s a good one Adam. Enjoyed that..
Just wanted to say hiiiiiiii Lovisa!!!
Limmy, is it really you?
Welcome back! How are you?
It’s so good to see you!
Limmy, I read your update. It sounds like you are moving in the right direction.
Its great to see you too, Lovisa! It is so handy that you are asking for status updates for everyone cos I get to read them, too. But – how are YOU? Adam told me that everyone is willing to listen if I needed it, and I would say the same to you. You always give so much, I sometimes wonder if you are receiving what you need as well.
That is so thoughtful, Limmy. Thanks!
I think my limerence is over. I still recognize that LO2 and LO3 are attractive men, but it’s not like it was. Honestly, I kind of miss the highs. I also miss being able to think about an LO to get a mood boost. For example, I did a difficult run this morning and I tried to get an energy boost from imagining that LO3 was running with me, but it didn’t work. Nuts. I think my limerent phase is over. There are benefits to being free from limerence. I can be more present. Also, it’s been a long time since I had an intrusive thought.
As for me and SO, we are doing great!
Yes, things do feel a little flat afterwards don’t they? But overall, I do not miss intrusive thoughts. I’m happy for you that part of it seems to have faded for you. And that you and your SO are doing great!!!
It is very perceptive of you to know that we use thoughts of our LO as a mood boost. Definitely LOs are strong addictive substances!
I just found out from my old LO that he is now seeing someone. I’m not sure what I feel about that. I tried to honestly observe myself. There is definitely some reaction but it isn’t pain or jealousy. But it isn’t indifference, either and I have to be honest about that.
Glad to hear how things are with you.
Lovisa,
now you pulled the carpet from under my feet 😂(do you say that in English?)
I have a vague memory of you writing somewhere that you get the same high feelings from running, or do I remember it wrongly?
I started running this week with that in the back of my mind;)
But now you say it‘s not the same…
Mila, keep running. It helps a lot. If I remember right, I posted after a particularly invigorating run. It was about 16 miles of beautiful mountain trails with breathtaking views. I took that run at an easy pace so it wasn’t hard at all. Yes, I do get awesome highs just from running. Keep running, Mila. My run earlier this week was… hold on I have to check my journal… 5-minute intervals at my 10k pace with a 1-minute rest in between. It’s a much shorter distance, but I did it on my treadmill for pacing. Treadmill runs just take more dedication because I’m in my basement and not the mountains. It is harder to motivate myself so I tried to use thoughts of LO3 for a pleasant escape. It didn’t work, but I got through the intervals. Afterwards, I felt much better. I had been struggling with race anxiety, but I felt so much better after my treadmill run. Sorry to cause confusion.
Run Mila Run! I’m so excited for you.
Lovisa, just found this post of you, while looking for Bridgelovers story…
Thank you!! Due to a lot of stress I didn’t run for a while, but will start again after next weekend. It‘s hard to get into a routine in the beginning because my work pattern is not regular…
Hey everyone, I felt like giving a more general update on my situation these days since it’s been a while… I realized the other day that I’m coming up on a year since this LE/EA started, hard to believe it’s been that long! Things are going pretty well overall for me and I’m feeling mostly stable and ok. LO ended up not leaving the workplace after all – she actually got to the point of giving her 2 weeks notice and had another job lined up, but then at the last minute she retracted her resignation and decided to stay, most likely for the next couple of years at least. At one point she told me that she changed her mind because this job paid better than the alternative job, but then another time she told me that I was the main reason she wanted to stay here. Maybe a little bit of both, who knows. I’m trying to just take things as they come and not spend too much time and energy deciphering her inner thoughts.
We’re in a pretty comfortable routine these days. We text back and forth on work days, find little excuses to see each other around work for a few minutes now and then, and talk on the phone for an hour once or twice a week during her commute, and that’s pretty much it, week in and week out for the last couple months. We’ve had some nice talks and texting sessions where we’ve expressed affection for each other without saying anything overly inappropriate or trying to test limits. We give each other an occasional squeeze on the arm or pat on the back and that’s it for physical contact. It feels like the most stable and predictable our relationship has ever been – I feel like at this point I know how she feels about me, she knows how I feel about her, we’re both committed to not letting anything go further, but we both still want to maintain the level of contact we have. It’s not perfect, but it feels pretty good, maybe even sustainable long term.
My limerence symptoms are actually not too bad these days. I think about her periodically every day, but not all the time like before – I actually find myself thinking about a lot of other stuff now, and I realized I often go several hours without thinking about her sometimes! I’m sleeping well at night. I’ve actually read several books from start to finish this month, which I hadn’t been able to do for a long time because of all the intrusive thoughts. If I text her and she doesn’t write back for hours or even a day, I get a little anxious and angsty, but it’s not nearly as bad as before. If my limerence was at a 10 for most of the past year, it’s at like a 3 or 4 now.
I think her deciding to stay at our workplace actually helped a lot – for the past year the prospect of her leaving was hanging over both of our heads really bad. It made her defensive (wanting to put up walls between us to lessen the hurt when she eventually left) and made me super anxious and needy because it felt like our days together were numbered, so any day when she was cold and didn’t talk to me was a wasted day out of a limited number. Now that our time together has been stretched out well into the future, the sense of urgency has lessened quite a bit – it’s a lot easier to be like “oh well, she didn’t text me today, that’s ok, I know she’s having a busy day and we’ll catch up later this week”. We’ve also gotten to understand each other better – honestly one of the best things we did was take those MBTI and enneagram tests and really spent a lot of time talking about our personality and relationship styles and it sucked a lot of the mystery out of things.
Meanwhile, my relationship with SO is in a good place – we’re getting along great, feel pretty connected, really nothing wrong with our relationship at all these days and I feel happy coming home to her every day. I’m doing a lot of work on my relationship with myself as well, some with my psychologist and mostly on my own through a lot of reading, journaling, and introspection. I’m understanding a lot more about my insecurities and anxieties and needs and am working on getting more of my validation from myself and not constantly seeking it from other people. It’s an ongoing project but I feel like I’m moving in the right direction.
So anyway, I just wanted to say hi to all my old friends here and give an update on my situation. It’s been nice reading the posts here the past couple of days and catching up on everyone. I’ll probably hang around here a bit more this weekend and then drop off again – I do still feel that posting here had become an unhealthy obsession for me and I need to limit my involvement with this forum to occasional check-ins. But I wish you all well!!
LIS, it’s good to hear where you are at at well, and you sound a lot better than when I last saw you. You sound like you are thinking and reflecting very much, and appreciating the things you have, and patiently waiting out this limerence to fade. All not easy, but necessary things for happiness, so well done!
Update (it seems to help me clarify some things for myself when I write little updates here… I hope you don’t mind)
Danger zone – after all the good work, (not feeling limerent anymore, reducing contact, only replying, not initiating, him behaving a bit selfishly and petulantly) suddenly I feel in danger to fall back into limerent thoughts, because yesterday I saw him onscreen on the internet after a long while of not seeing him at all, and because he sent a surprisingly nice message after that.
Had to force myself to think of other things every time pleasant thoughts about him began to intrude, but it’s hard work.
And I’m scared to to do the wrong thing- insisting to see him as the unpleasant, selfish and charmless guy (which helped me getting out of limerence)is basically not true or fair and I will lose a friend.
It’s so hard to keep the balance, keep the friendly feelings but not slide into limerent thoughts again, because the rut is there and easy to get into again.
Oh Mila, I’m so sorry you fear to backsliding after all the work you put in to get rid of the limererence monster. It’s like going back to square one… you be strong 💪🏽 and don’t quit now ! I know, it’s so difficult. Let’s see what happens next, how LO behaves in the future, he noticed you’re really backing off and wants to lure you in again? Be careful. Best wishes and a hug.
No, no, he’s not like that, he’s not at all a player. He was just touched that I watched his thing on the internet and wrote something nice.
My resolution to stay out of the limerence should ideally be independent of the way he behaves.
I manage ok at the moment.
And thank you for the best wishes and hug:)
@Mila. I am sorry you feel you took a step back in your recovery process. This has happened to me many many times – I feel better with no contact / reduced contact, and then melancholy strikes after a real or virtual contact or perceived reciprocation. I’m sure being limerent causes us to over analyse, plus our sensors are super highly receptive, so we have strong reactions, whether positive or negative. I also agree with what other members said, this hot and cold behavior may be a way to keep you hooked. Of course, no way to know for sure. I am sure you will feel better soon, time will do its thing. In the meantime, be prepared for the occasional setback, and stay committed to the process. It’s very hard (believe me, I know as I struggle), but with strength and perseverance, we can feel better. Wish you lots of strength and positive vibes.
Thank you ABCD,
As I wrote to Nisor, he‘s not like that, playing hot and cold. He‘s quite genuine and doesn’t even know how to play like that.
The flip side is that he always behaves how he feels at the moment- when he‘s in a bad mood, he doesn’t pull himself together to be nice etc
He felt bad in the last weeks, so he wasn’t very nice, that helped me with the limerence. Also, he mainly reacts- when I cool off a bit, he cools off, when I get warmer, he gets warmer.
But he doesn’t play games, as far as I know him, which is quite well.
But I managed after his nice message to pull myself together and don’t think too much about him, which is good.
Thank you for your concern!
I hope your struggle goes in the right direction!
A variety of views on this topic:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/help-my-partner-is-limerent-for-someone-else/
I understand your point if you don’t want marriage or kids.
however, how long women could afford to run from one lover to another? Charlie Chaplin could have a child at age of 82, would we?
Snowphoenix,
“however, how long women could afford to run from one lover to another? Charlie Chaplin could have a child at age of 82, would we?”
It’s not about running from lover to another. Look at Susan Sarandon. She was with Tim Robbins for almost two decades. They had kids. They broke up. She had another, long-term boyfriend after that. Of course, she has money, so that makes it easer to leave.
Hi Mila,
I sympathise greatly with you.
I want to send some words of encouragement
– could what you described be part of the ‘one step forward, two steps back’ dance?
I mean, you mentioned that “after all the good work, (not feeling limerent anymore, reducing contact, only replying, not initiating, him behaving a bit selfishly and petulantly) suddenly I feel in danger to fall back into limerent thoughts, because yesterday I saw him onscreen on the internet after a long while of not seeing him at all, and because he sent a surprisingly nice message after that. ”
So my suggestion is that, I guess you could predict that he might start behaving extra nice to repair whatever coolness he has, no doubt, detected? This could be a plausible reaction out of him whether he was limerent himself or simply a friend who was trying a little harder. This is a very familiar pattern. Over-thinking everything is also a pattern.
Limerence is such a slippy slope. Its so easy to slip backwards. Keep up your resolve because you will be a better friend to him, in the end, if you manage to clear your head of “ulterior motives” associated with limerent agenda.
If that means a little bit of deprogramming, so be it. For example, thoughts such as ‘He may not be tbe worst….but he also is not the best’, and so on.
As he is no longer leaving your work, there is no need to rush or panic. Its a very like the situation @LiS describes in his update post. This could be a similar case for you (though every dynamic has its own perfect balance of distance/proximity)
All the best!!!
Good luck and may the force be with you 💪
Bewitched,
Thank you, I have to check LIS post! I miss several posts here, I think.
What you recommend is exactly what I‘m trying to achieve, it’s just a bit like dancing on a rope, so hard to get the balance right. But reading the right way to deal with this in another’s words is very helpful, thank you!
As I wrote to the others, he was just reacting to the fact that I had watched his whole internet thingy. I think he was surprised that I did that because of my cooler behavior. I think we might both going up and down in the limerent swings…
But now it’s back to him only answering with emojis 😆and me not initiating contact, so we got past that moment alright🙈
I‘m really touched that you all help me so much, thank you!
But he‘s still leaving work, by the way. He left already but still got one foot in, which will most probably be over next year.
Also, thank you especially for this:
„Keep up your resolve because you will be a better friend to him, in the end, if you manage to clear your head of “ulterior motives” associated with limerent agenda.“
That’s exactly what I think.
You are so welcome @Mila.
I hope tomorrow is a great day for you.
There is quite a celebratory air on this thread with all the old-timers coming back. And sounding so upbeat / on the road to recovery too. It gives the rest of us hope….🍁🍂🍃🤞💪
Hi Bewitched and everyone,
In the meantime we met for an hour, I observed that I can still feel the attraction, but I could observe it kind of from outside- I noticed that I‘m drawn to his vulnerability that shows sometimes quite unveiled in his face and mouth, and I‘m sure there were similar things going on in his head too. We had some awkward moments and I noticed a certain look and a clenched fist in an otherwise quite relaxed conversation etc.
But I managed to stay out of limerence, I guess. I have now a kind of barrier or knot inside me, that doesn’t feel nice but prevents the melting limerent feelings toward him.
The thing is, my habit of limerence is hanging in the air now and waiting for a LO to pound on😂
I have to be really careful.
We have a guest at work who also has this vulnerability thing paired with great competence and authority at work, in other words, he glimmers, and I feel myself leaning towards
limerent beginnings as eye contact feels meaningful etc….
So inwards, I raise a big red stop sign! Thankfully he will be gone tomorrow.
To add to the age discussion @cradlesnatcher, Adam etc, the potential new LO (whom I won’t let evolve into next LO) is exactly my own age;), I‘m getting better
@Marcia,
Yes. I know four couples who haven’t got their marriage license but live and raise kids together for decades. They claim that without that piece of “security” paper and with the knowledge that the other side could just walk out at any given time, the both sides try harder to bring their better self into the relationship and grow together. I kind of envy their dynamic, particularly the young, childless couple — they are so courteous and sweet to each other, yet not “intimately sticky” to each other in public.
There is a stereotype joke here:
When Frenchman has a mistress, the wife gets her own lover.
When Italian man gets one, the wife threatens to a suicide.
When American guy sees a lover, the wife serves him a divorce paper and get a half of whatever he has…
In my COO when a man sees 1 or more mistresses, the wife (particularly after 35) closes one eye, as long as he still provides the bread to the family as before.
Mila is right here, if Ann wants to get a lawyer, she needs to prepare for a real divorce.
Snow,
In the US a lot depends on where you live.
In several US states, adultery is cause for immediate divorce. Some states consider adultery as cause to forfeit spousal support.
In 6 states, you can sue your SO’s paramour for “Alienation of Affection.”
When I consulted one of The Top 100 Divorce Attorneys in DC, he told me that if I could prove my wife slept around, he could be in front of a judge in 24 hours.
There would still have been child custody and a property settlement to hash out but I’d be negotiating as a single person.
Nowadays, even unmarried parent has to pay child support, why bother marrying? Would limerents have an easier time without committed relationship?
What’s the difference between a regular PA and Limerent PA?
Snow,
“What’s the difference between a regular PA and Limerent PA?”
To the betrayed, probably none. When I disclosed my EA to my wife three years after it ended, she wasn’t amused. She asked some questions and came back with, “A redhead with a hard luck story looking for a shoulder to cry on, I can see how that would appeal to you.” But, she still wasn’t amused.
To the betrayer, limerence might provide the justification in their mind that would overcome the potentially overwhelming cognitive dissonance associated with betraying someone who believed in you, thought you were building a life together, and maybe breaking the vows you swore before God and dozens of your closest friends and family.
Then, again, cognitive dissonance has more effect on some people than others. The more narcissistic and/or sociopathic you tilt, the less it bothers you.
Snowphoenix,
I’m not saying you have one foor out the door. Just that you leave if the relationship runs its course.
@Marcia,
I know what you mean. Those four couples were both feet in, just did not sign that piece of paper.
@Limerence Emeritus
If a betrayer is a Narcissist or Sociopath, I wonder whether the betrayed should stay in the marriage at all. I would get out and run fast!
Some couples pay attention to quality of their romantic union, not mere vows….If it runs its course, then it’s healthy to both sides to end it with a period. Without death, there won’t be new birth.
A betrayal of (non)limerent is a wakeup call, alerting couples to examine their marital tie and decide what to do. I think Lovisa’s SO is handling her limerence quite well. None of us has chosen to be a limerent.
In his deathbed, Mahler wrote to her ex-wife, [who was “forced” by him to be his genius shadow, betrayed and left him for “right” causes] “It’s torture that you can’t reciprocate. But as Love must awaken love, fidelity will find fidelity, as long as Eros rules, I want to win it all back…” (German movie: “Mahler on the Couch”).
It seems like a bit of an “old school reunion” happening here, so I thought I’d join in, too. Good to hear how everyone is doing, and catching up.
I am progressing well in my divorce. It has been a very hard time. Letting go of my ex-SO is every bit as bad as heartbreaking over ex-LO. Worse, actually. I realize that attachment is at the root of all these, and breaking attachment is what hurts so much.
My LE is mostly (98%) history. I was pretty much over it by the time I decided to part ways with my ex-SO. The “final” end of it happened sometime during the divorce – I just stopped texting with ex-LO quite so often. We now keep in touch now and then (I don’t track it), but he does ‘like’ my stuff quite often on social media when I post. I say 98% because the 2% of me does wonder a little why (old habits die hard), but I just chalk it up as he feels we are friends and leave it at that. It no longer hurts to think about him. If it is of any interest, I’ve just reached a stage of it not hurting anymore to think about my ex-SO as well. I am consciously single right now. Just so you all know – I’m single, ex-LO is single – and I have no desire to stir up that hornet’s nest! It’s like if you and an ex were both single, you wouldn’t necessarily get back together again.
What I do wonder a lot about is how my LE was intertwined with my marriage, and what it meant vis a vis the marriage. The divorce was a necessary thing. Would things have actually come to a head without the “shock” of a LE? I was just cruising in my marriage before, on auto-pilot. What lack in my life/marriage did the LE symbolize? In terms of Jungian theory, what shadow was triggered by my LO, who I over-valued, that was repressed in my life, in my marriage? What does this indicate about the function of limerence in life? Is it just my case, or is this something that could apply more generally to all limerents?
My theory is that the longing of limerence is the longing of SOMETHING MISSING in our lives. It could be directly in the realm of love, or it could be in some other domain – career stagnation, lack of personal development, shaky spirituality, loneliness, lack of excitement, lack of freedom, etc. And of course, it could indicate a lack in our primary relationship, if we have one. I think getting to the root of that will reveal a lot of what you need to do to get your life or your relationship into balance again. Or as Dr L says, to get us closer to a purposeful life. Which is really what I am focusing on, post-divorce.
Again, good to “see” so many old faces. Y’all were such a help at a particular stage of this arduous journey. I know for those still in the trenches, it seems like it will NEVER end, but … change is the only guaranteed thing. Your LE will change in its nature over and over, and one day, perhaps, it will change into a version that will no longer hurt you so much.
Limmy!!!!!!!!!
You are back! Miss Lovisa posted yesterday too! All my favorite ladies are coming back! What’s next Summer?! (Hopefully one day.)
Limmy I am sorry for your divorce. I guess. I don’t always know the right way to address these things. I told that to someone and they said why are you sorry. And I said because a relationship ended. And they said I wanted it to end. So I don’t know what to say. But I am sure I botched it right now.
“What lack in my life/marriage did the LE symbolize?”
Something for sure. I finally admitted that to my wife just this past weekend. I told her why I think it happened and why I am afraid it could happen again if we can’t work through it. The absence of something personally important to your well being in a relationship is probably where the start of limerence was. As I said personally I now know it was the reason for mine. It may change for others. But limerence or affairs happen for a reason. Affairs there is no excuse for, and even my own dammed limerence, but there are reasons.
So glad to hear from you Limmy. Don’t be a stranger dammit! 🙂 Unless of course this place is the devil’s playground like it can be for me. But so glad to see you post and get an update on your progress. You know that we are always here for you whenever you need someone to talk to. I was in the recliner on my phone and I was like I got to get to the PC. My wife was like why? I said cause Limmy is back and I can’t type for $hit on my phone! 🙂 Best wishes to you.
Haha, thank you Adam, I’m so flattered you leapt off your recliner to type on a PC for me! It is really nice to hear from you, and to read about where you and your wife are at in this journey. I am so glad you are tackling the problem directly with your wife, talking about it. I think when we don’t, we are more vulnerable to something happening that we have no control over, like limerence.
“The absence of something personally important to your well being in a relationship is probably where the start of limerence was.” – you TOTALLY hit the nail on the head here!!!! Absolutely. Self-knowledge is the most important step. There are so many changes in my life right now – it is a season of discovery.
Hmmm, yes, it isn’t always easy to know how to respond when someone says they are divorcing. I got congratulations as well as sympathy. I had people who were married avoid me, and others start confiding in me that they have considered divorce. The most helpful were people who just listened and cared for me and checked in on me regularly. To be honest, BOTH congratulations AND commiseration are appropriate because divorce is horrible and painful; but it also took a lot of strength and hope to do it, and one hopes for a better future.
Thank you for saying that you are always ready to listen. It means a lot to me, it really does. It is so good to hear from you. And to read Lovisa as well.
@Limmy – So happy to see your post and also those of the irrepressible, kind @Lovisa.
x
@Limmy – So happy to see your posts and also those of the irrepressible and kind @Lovisa.
Frederico, you made me laugh. “ irrepressible…”. Hahaha!
Thank you for the kind shout-out.
Hello dear Frederico! Happy to see you again.
Hi Limmy,
“What does this indicate about the function of limerence in life”
To me it was a wake-up call, to review one’s life and try to correct what’s wrong or what’s holding one back for that purposeful living.
If you’re not prospering in your marriage and it’s holding you back, it’s ok to leave. What is not ok is to stay where you’re stagnant and not wanted.
Congratulations in your new single status! Now, be real wise and discerning when choosing a new partner, limerence has taught you a lesson or two, right?
All the best to you .
Thank you, Nisor! Haha, definitely, I’m not rushing to curtail this hard-won freedom of mine. Freedom from a marriage that was not working, and freedom from limerence that was so debilitating.
All the best to you, too!
@ Limmy and @Adam
Hi guy’s, I’m fairly new here but I don’t think ya’ll will mind me jumping in
Especially Limmy that touched on the “something missing” in your life can lead to limerence.
I have been going to therapy for some unresolved childhood trauma and we of course are discussing Limerence because it’s at the forefront of my thinking right now.
She explained to me that the gassed out feelings I have now are because my stores of dopamine have been depleted from my LE, especially during the beginning, when the reciprocation was there.
Your body just can’t keep up and you end up running on empty.
She has me trying “Radical Acceptance” it’s weird, but it works!
This morning when I opened the curtains to a beautiful, sunny warm October day here in Canada, I got a burst of dopamine!
And it had NOTHING to do with my XLO!
I felt great all day, it may not last because the mind will easily fall back in the limerence groove
But, hey! all take it!!!
~Anna
Great, Anna, it’s a good sign!
Keep going and enjoy the weather!
Thank You Mila!
Weather has been nice here in northern ontario Canada lol we usually have snow by now
Thank You for your encouraging words.
~Anna
I’m a bit of a fan of radical acceptance as well. It helped me a lot at a crucial point during my divorce. I never used it during my LE though, I now wonder how that would look.
It is great to be able to notice beauty in the world that is not eclipsed by the all-encompassing feelings of limerence, so I think it is a great sign that you are enjoying a beautiful Fall day. The sunlight in Fall is just exquisite.
It was Limmy
Practicing the radical acceptance just to look at this from a different perspective
I’ll try almost anything to give my brain a workout and to distract it for a bit
I’ve only been NC for about a week and it’s tough, but I’m hanging in there!
~Anna
Anna
I am glad to hear that you had a good sign with your day starting with a good thought outside of limerence. That is a good feeling. I kissed my wife this morning before I left for work. And I mean I was after a kiss kiss, not no peck on the cheek 🙂 She was like “I’m not gonna be a tease” and I’m like “that’s the entire point!” Lol Anyway I got a better feeling from a kiss from her than a thought of LO.
I would be very bad at this “radical acceptence” because I am very bad at confrontation. At least for myself. I’ll take it head on for my wife or our boys but not good at it for my own sake.
Stay as long as you’d like Anna. We are all here for each other.
Thank You Adam!
Just trying different approaches instead of running on the hamster wheel
Some work for a while, but you must know that silly brain of ours does what it wants
Good Luck to you also
~Anna
@Marcia,
A new biography by Mary Gabriel on Madonna, “A Rebel Life” is on NYT book review today.
Snowphoenix,
“A new biography by Mary Gabriel on Madonna, “A Rebel Life” is on NYT book review today.”
Thanks for letting me know. I will check it out. She vacillated between strong-willed men (probably the two husbands) and men she controlled (the later-in-life boy toys). It’s interesting. Now, she seems to be done with all of it.
Funny you mentioned Mahler. I was watching the movie “Tar” last night. Cate Blanchett plays a Berlin conductor who is preparing her orchestra for a live recording of Mahler’s No. 5.
It is a good book review. I appreciate Madonna most for her defiance against the establishment and her constantly reinventing herself — there is no limit to her. As our society has progressed to supposedly “open” and “equal”, why no men could love and support her truly as a partner, not a boss or slave?
The movie “Mahler on the couch” (by Freud himself) is quite interesting. I suggest you take a peak when having a free moment. What Mahler had for his wife, Alma, seemed to be limerence, which inspired his music, but not a realistic, supportive love for Alma, who was an aspiring composer before the marriage (Klimt was one of her lovers/suitors), committed infidelity and left Mahler for a devote lover. I would like to know your opinion.
A beautiful and independent lady in my ex-family turned down Gershwin’s marriage proposal because she refused to live in his shadow. She made her living as a magazine editor and married a talented Albanian immigrant.
Snowphoenix,
Hmmm … I’m reading up on Alma Mahler. She was quite the femme fatale. Married to Mahler and then Gropius, founder of the Bauhaus School. Left Gropius for someone else. First kiss is with the painter Klimt. My first question is … how does one meet all these interesting people? I’m very jealous? 🙂
She was a woman in the early 1900s whose talent was suppressed for Mahler. Women were kind of trapped. He was supposed to have been very regimented and controlling.
The movie mentions her as if she ruined him.
@Marcia,
Alma was from a well-known musician family, highly educated, and very wealthy — a socialite of the arty circle in Vienna of that era!
I see the movie as Mahler finally understood his own “macho” behaviors and let his repressed self out through Freud’s couch. I felt for Alma’s pains (from a modern point of view) and haled for her open outing with her architect lover, since Mahler was a workaholic and dominated her. Alma’s performance was absolutely terrific when she fiercely shook Mahler’s shoulder and head telling to his face why she had to betray him (19 years older, fragile). Gosh, she’s bravely honest back then, Bravo!
But Mahler’s genuine Eros for her touched me as well, I felt for his deep pain as well. Back then, male’s roles in the family were defined by the society, I guess? He was also unconsciously looking for his mother, who was fragile due to some illness. Alma was robust, sensuous and musically creative, not a birdy, dependent wife type!
A view from the “other woman.”
https://thoughtcatalog.com/melanie-berliet/2016/05/if-youre-going-to-hate-the-other-woman-please-hate-the-dude-too/
They deleted the comments. There were quite a few.
It was reading this article that gave me the idea that an affair partner was analogous to driving a getaway car. The affair partner doesn’t actually commit the offense, unless they’re attached but that’s a different offense and the roles are reversed.
I mean … she has a point. Bill Clinton is considered an elder statesman, raking in millions for book deals and speaking engagements. While Lewinisky can’t get a job, despite having a master’s degree from the London School of Economics, because of her noteriety.
Marcia,
I totally agree that there’s a double standard.
In the Berliet article, I found her therapist somewhat amoral and wondered how many times she’d been an affair partner.
Another thing about the article…Berliet’s actions are frowned upon in many social, religious, and legal environs. Men who cheat are often called out for it. Clinton, Kennedy(s), the list goes on, got away with a lot of crap that they shouldn’t have. Clinton might have ended up in jail for sexual assault but women gave him a bye.
Back to Berliet…
If you don’t want to carry a stigma, e.g., don’t wear the Scarlett “A,” don’t engage in behavior that comes with one.
LE,
“If you don’t want to carry a stigma, e.g., don’t wear the Scarlett “A,” don’t engage in behavior that comes with one.”
The writer doesn’t write about any sense of responsbility in the whole thing.
I guess she beat the odds in that the guy left his wife and they’re together (neither usually happen). Maybe it will work out. It’s just not a great way to start a relationship.
Limerrent Emeritus, Marcia
When PA takes two, particularly male’s decisive role, to occur, Scarlet Letter is always on woman’s forehead! In some cultures in the past, female adulterer were stoned or drawn in a river. Today, they blame showy clothing on females, as if male’s brain and limps are chained by the hormonal devil…. it is indeed a “fucked up” world.
And when one is nobody, the environment heavily condemns their PA; when one is famous or in power, media and publishing house chase adulterers to get their stories, as if their PA somehow more entertaining or “meaningful”…. Why people are even fascinated to read them? Why the PA of Bill Clinton or Kennedy Brother are more “attractive” to gossip about than a nameless lemrent’s PA?
How ridiculous and absurd⁉️
Snowphoenix,
“But Mahler’s genuine Eros for her touched me as well”
From what I read, she was never “in love” with him. Impressed by him and flattered to be with him, but not limerent for him the way he was for her.
I agree totally with Marcia.👍🏻
So if there wasn’t a PA, you’d be ok with how he was handling things?
Cheating can involve a lot more than a PA. I could probably forgive a one and done. But if he’s in love with someone, that’s worse.
@Marcia,
No, Alma was not in hot love with Mahler, she was drawn to his music talent, and he was courting her hotly, while all her “lovers” and her mother disagreed with their union. He was too old, controlling, boring for her… although she lit up his life…
To many women, EA is even worse.
After my gf’s husband told her that he was having a EA with another women, she told me that she was hurting like hell and complaining to me to no end. Later, they made up and had a daughter.
I was okay with my SO’s four flings before the wedding, because there were no EA involved, and he wanted to help both of us to get rid of them. He paid a call-girl twice during the marriage when I was on business trip, I didn’t give a 2nd thought.
Just by encountering a strange woman, we could figure out where her attractions lie and how she might be “superior” to us? Then we need to change ourselves to meet up this LO’s “standards”? As Unique as we all are, why compare or compete with anyone else?
Can curiosity and jealousy reduce her pains of being betrayed? Or make her transform over night? Or over turn her husband’s strayed attraction to the other woman? The key issue here is still the husband who would not reveal his mind. If he’s not cooperate with the same wish to save the marriage, nothing can progress from where Ann is now.
“ As Unique as we all are, why compare or compete with anyone else?”
Because it works. My husband focused on his self improvement and he focused on improving our marriage when he discovered that I had feelings for another man. His approach was brilliant and effective. It worked.
To compete with one’s former self and constantly improve or reinvent oneself , like Madonna, brings more self estimate — Philaupia.
As an athlete, I struggle not to compare myself to others. I know that I should only compare my current self to my past self, but it’s so hard not to look at another athlete’s performance and think, “Wow, how did he/she do that? Why can’t I do that?” I know that the “win” in a race just isn’t important. However, winning a spouse’s heart is very important and it is worth fighting for. At one point during my LE, my SO gave me a big hug and said, “I will never stop fighting for you.” His method of “fight” was to improve himself and be a better husband. It worked. He won.
Just to be clear, the competition was rigged in my husband’s favor. He is the father of my children. He is the man who shows up for my family every time someone needs him. He is my best friend and lover. No one can compete with that. My SO will win every time, but I still enjoy his efforts to woo me.
Typo: more self-esteem.
Competing among males is Darwinian, understandable.
In this era, everyone seems to strive to be Oneself, with a uniqueness.
Even in an athletic race, one should compete with one’s former self while learning from other athlete’s skills or tricks, I think.
To fight for spouse’s affection is absolutely important, to doze off on the security belt — the marriage license, is dangerous slope. I would still focus on improving the current from the previous Self. To compete with other women on a superficial level is a fool’s errand, woes would follow…
I tend to look up some French women, authors or characters in books and on screens, for inspiration. They’re fiercely independent, courageous, critical in thinking (somewhat opinionated sometimes), feminine, romantic, modesty, focused on their own professional and personal pursuits, instead of competing with other women. My Godmother and a close gf are French whom I keep in touch.
A bravo to your husband’s effort and work! 👏
@Nisor
“People need to evolve as the years pass to even off with the times, not to stay behind, in a rut.”
Totally agree with you here! As a wife or single, we women (as well as men) need to improve and grow ourselves as time wears down our energy and sharpness in all arenas. Like Madonna, we all can “reinvent our unique selves to stay in mental and physical shape, to stay uniquely attractive and interesting in body and mind, to love, appreciate and please our spouse in more creative or romantic ways.
1. spend at least one hour in gym or home workouts — MUST
2. spend a bit more in childcare, so as to save your energy.
3. go out to “date” spouse once a week — keep up with his evolving interests and personal growth, and share yours with him. Talk, talk, and talk.
4. spend on sexy clothes and free your internal Marilyn Moore in bedroom.
5. keep up/engage in a kid-free hobby.
6. socialize with our own friends.
7. More personal Eros touches/bombs that initially draw spouse to your marital altar.
I think these 7 steps could make a wife coming out of “boring wife” shadow, and enable us to be authentic Self as a a fabulous woman, wife, and mother!
If spouse is still unappreciative and unattracted, then it’s his loss. Jump off the ship and move on!
Hi Snow,
I agree with your seven steps to keep a marriage going! Women be wise…
I was told by an older friend: a man wants his wife to be a virgin in the outside world, but a slut in the bedroom…
Whether we want to admit it or not, sex is the glue in a relationship. Sex was very important to me in my relationship, good sex I mean! And men have a wandering eye and like to seek for novelty. Some women too like to look for novelty …. This all is like trying to put worms 🐛 in a straight line, or keeping kindergarten children stay put in line.
We will forever have this problem of betrayal hanging in most relationships. Let’s not kid ourselves and be realistic. It will hurt like a bastard but it happens very, very often. Everyone needs to become a stoic… to put up with it.
Good luck to everyone!
Marcia, Snow, Lovisa, and others:
I agree with Marcia that I would be more troubled with an EA than a PA. In reality I don’t think I will accept either, nor PA or EA. I will lose all kind of trust and knowing me very well, I think I’ll hold a grudge and mistrust SO forever that would mortify me and corrode the relationship. So, NO, No, no, I definitely reject it and it would be cause for separation.
Imagine, Just thinking my LO (who was my SO for three years) could have regards for another woman, when he started to behave a little distant, I got so hurt and deep pain, that I decided to run away. I could not imagine sharing him with someone else. I was so afraid of myself loving someone to such an extent, sickening and unhealthy for my well-being. I was afraid I’ll do something stupid, lose my senses etc. No, I had phylautia , could not alienate my self . Regardless if he was (LO) my forever beloved, the love of my life I had to end it. And I did it even without questioning him. I was young and silly, inexperienced. Today, with acquired experience of course , I would have the necessary conversation to clarify any doubts.
So is life, if only I did this or that…
Nisor
That’s being human to me. I am not naive enough to think that my wife’s eye hasn’t ever wandered to another man’s body. I am not even naive enough to think that she hasn’t ever fantasized about another man. No matter how civilized we become we can’t beat out evolution and instinct.
Way back when I first came here. It was the second or third response from someone (I think it was Limmy) when I posted that I was going to disclose to my wife about my limerence, that she said monogamy is an active choice we make each day to be faithful to the person that we love the most. Limerence is not a choice. That stuck with me. I try to continue to make the choice of monogamy and love no matter what. As long as my wife will allow me to.
lol, Nisor. My grandma and mom taught me those principles with slightly different wording…
“A man wants his wife to be a lady on the street and a whore in the bedroom.”
“Sex is the glue that holds a marriage together.”
And from my religious leaders…
“Don’t have sexual relations with anyone to whom you are not legally and lawfully wedded.”
I live by those principles. So far they have served my 25-year marriage quite well.
@Nisor,
Hmm… did my previous messages ignore the importance of sex? I think I’ve been championing health benefits of Quality sex, insufficiency of it would make some women to run away, like Alma, Mahler’s wife.
“Whether we want to admit it or not, sex is the glue in a relationship.”
What about BAD sex that is inadequate or depriving either partner’s instinctual appetite that could be innately low or high or winding down as one ages? What about being a lousy Marilyn or Casanova in the bedroom? Should couples stick together for “thick and thin” to endure the elongated “hunger” that could deteriorate body, mind, and spirit?
“And men have a wandering eye and like to seek for novelty. Some women too like to look for novelty ….”
As a social being, most men and women want and appreciate emotional intimacy and stability — there is no innate “lone wolf” existing out there, it is forced upon —
https://youtu.be/-45QPC6f_T8?si=HC_YvZYNofCGlq6Q — So, you’re a lone wolf?
Many also desire or seek out novelty from time to time, but the most society does not allow it — a social conditioning, thus all forms of infidelity haunt and hurt committed couples. In South Africa, a man can legally marry as many wives as he could afford, and all wives get along just fine, what happens to their instinct of jealousy?
That’s what I said in another post, some social or ideological convictions and notions have Created and Amplified our “sufferings”. A Buddhist’s point of view (as well as Stoicism), even goes that people choose to “suffer”. When all sorts of natural or manmade pains are inevitable in this world, whether to suffer more than needed is a choice.
https://youtu.be/yFPeA-7fZ4E?si=xsFPe2NO_x10nP-u — Don’t Suffer More than Needed/ Buddhist Philosophy on Pain and suffering.
So a dose of Stoicism and a bit of Buddhism (I dislike its annihilation on all desires or attachments) is more beneficial to our own mental and emotional health, while actively seeking concrete solutions to our realistic issues, eg. Ann’s case.
Snowphoenix, I don’t understand why an EA troubles you more than a PA. I’m really trying to understand why you weren’t troubled by SO’s use of a call girl, too. Do you feel comfortable elaborating a little? Sorry to be so nosy about such a sensitive subject. I understand if you’d rather not share.
Speedwagon,
“Sexual infidelity is a line in the sand for a lot of partners.”
If I was forced to choose between a partner having a meaningless one-nigher or falling in love with another woman but never touching her, I’d pick the former every time.
“But a PA is infidelity and can have legal repercussions in a divorce”
I’d say a good number of states have non-fault divorce, unless they’re following laws from 1925.
Marcia,
“ If I was forced to choose between a partner having a meaningless one-nigher or falling in love with another woman but never touching her, I’d pick the former every time.”
Really? I don’t understand. Please explain why.
Because a good number of men are adept at having casual sex. It’s not memorable. It doesn’t hang in their minds. But if he falls in love … he’s preoccupied and fixated on someone else. That can last years. And that can shake him to his core.
@Lovisa,
Thank you for the tough questions which spins my brain here, I’ll try to answer to my truth —
First of all, I’m a limerent fitting almost 120% to Tunnov’s definition, emotional and spiritual connection to me have been most important all my life. Without others’ mind, heart and spirit with me, I’d be feeling like dealing with empty human shells, everything, including sex, would be mechanical, no emotions involved, nah! I tried PA after divorce, including a couple of single, nearly-perfect lovers — not glimmer-giving LOs (a Russian, a French, a British), they were unsatisfying to my heart’s deep desire for an emotional connection, and I didn’t care much about their personal life, although we could discuss about philosophy, literature, film, and other cultural matters under the Sun!
What would be fun to be with someone whose heart and mind are elsewhere? What can one sense from and inspire them? To be uplifted by and enliven them? PA is driven by biological instinct, bringing temporary physical gratification. A short PA doesn’t make deep soulful connections, both men and women can have them w/o affecting a loving relationship, according to Biological Anthropologists, Helen Fisher.
https://youtu.be/6DYgImG1CKo?si=Hrl9vdYMckfSiHBh
But I imagine a long term PA could bring EA into and endanger a committed ties. My self never experienced short or long term PA while committed, but had 2 un-acted crushes, which already made me feel “unfaithful” and guilty inside.
Secondly, as a human being, we all make mistakes out of whatever causes, sometimes simply curiosity. SO had four brief flings between the engagement and wedding, and was found out one month after the wedding. The issue became: what did we want to do after the fact? SO felt sorry, seriously apologized, swore not to repeat the mistake (I believed he kept his promise). We were very young, and still had strong feelings for each other. So I quickly left incidents behind.
When spotting the bank bill of the call girls, I was shocked. SO said he was curious about what was like to be professionally “served”. By that time I was long out of limerence with him, so cared little about something even less than a PA. Besides reprimanding him and making him to immediately take a medical examination, what else one could do with the fact? My mistake was that I didn’t question further whether I was “professional” enough in the bedroom while ignorantly, deeply deprived…. I insisted a divorce later.
My pride comprises understanding humanity with its “embedded” flaws in any ideological society and forgive them ultimately (while appeared in my small life) for my own peace of mind and contentment. However, forgiveness doesn’t guarantee a stained committed relationship would eventually workout and flourish; it depends on couple’s personality and strength of their connection.
Our imperfect world with insurmountable pains, brought by survival needs and desires, is the Default of our existence. ACCEPTING this fact at a personal level while making efforts to better our daily life would reduce some excruciating sufferings, sometimes inflected by social values that differ, change and evolve in time and in various cultures.
Nice to meet you, Lovisa!
@Marcia,
“ If I was forced to choose between a partner having a meaningless one-nigher or falling in love with another woman but never touching her, I’d pick the former every time.”
“Because a good number of men are adept at having casual sex. It’s not memorable. It doesn’t hang in their minds. But if he falls in love … he’s preoccupied and fixated on someone else. That can last years. And that can shake him to his core.“
I’m totally with you here….
Even just LO’s one glimmer at another, without any other facts, hurt so deeply… he’s gone ever since nearly two years ago.
“And that can shake him to his core.”
Yep.
The first thing out of my wife’s mouth after I disclosed my EA with LO #4 was,
“Did you love her?”
I told her that I didn’t think I could love someone that I never actually met. My wife never saw any of the correspondence between us.
My wife has lived with me long enough to know the difference between a response and an answer. I gave her a response and she wanted an answer.
The best I could come up with was, “I don’t think so.”
LE,
“The best I could come up with was, “I don’t think so.””
And she didn’t say anything after that?
I would have pressed for a lot more than that.
Limerent Emeritus,
You never met LO#4 but had an EA with her online? May I ask for how long? How did it affect your marriage? Do you think you’ve made a right decision to disclose it to your wife? How did or does she react?
How is your life going nowadays?
Snowphoenix,
“Even just LO’s one glimmer at another, without any other facts, hurt so deeply… he’s gone ever since nearly two years ago.”
Yes. Just seeing my LO talking to another woman hurt. I know that’s not reasonable, but it still hurt.
I read an article in British GQ by a male writer and he said that the casual sex he had was about as memorable as a take-out pizza. I never forgot that line.
For me, if an SO had strayed once — in a take-out pizze encounter — I probably wouldn’t want to know. He feels bad. He’s not going to do it again. It’s a slip up. Not repeat performances but one slip up over the course of a long-term relationship. But if he’s in love with someone else … that I’d need to know.
@Marcia,
“the casual sex he had was about as memorable as a take-out pizza. I never forgot that line.”
I am worse than that British GQ writer in that I cannot even remember those “take-out pizzas”, their shapes and flavors? 😂 My mind must have been wondering on the Mars…
You’re worse than me in that your LO’s chats with other women hurt you; I don’t mind LO’s flirts but glimmering is soul-bulb lightening, too flashy and bright to forget….
The more I consciously want to let the memory go, the tighter my Unconscious grasp it… so I just have to categorize and accept it as one of imperfections in this world, in my tiny existence. 😞
This is fascinating! Let me see if I understand…
Women are more troubled by a husband’s EA than PA because the husband might love his EA partner. The reason a woman doesn’t want her husband to love another woman is because he might give his time and attention to the other woman. In other words, the wife fears that she will lose her husband’s devotion if he loves another woman.
Did I get it? Am I even close?
Does anyone want to define “love” and “in love?”
(It’s nice to meet you, too, Snowphoenix. Thank you for sharing your personal experiences to help me understand).
This concept is hard for me to understand because I am a woman who would be more troubled by physical infidelity than emotional infidelity. I wonder why. I kind of feel like a traitor to my team. I feel like I should agree with other women about this, but I don’t.
Thank you for contributing to the discussion, LE, Marcia and Snowphoenix.
“Does anyone want to define “love” and “in love?””
To me, love is what you feel for a long-term partner over time. It’s knowing them, understanding them, choosing to commit to them, etc.
“In love” is the heady, obsessive, over-the-moon feeling at the begining of a relationship. It’s short-term and based on a lot of projection and fantasy … It’s like being on cocaine. It’s a physiological onslaught. It’s all-consuming.
You can substitute the word “in love” with “limerence.” I think the only difference is that “in love” is consummated whereas “limerence” develops when there are barriers. Becomes even more obsessive.
So, yes, I’d prefer he have a meaningless one-nighter.
Snowphoenix,
“You’re worse than me in that your LO’s chats with other women hurt you”
Well, “hurt” might be a strong word. Jealous and possessive. His attention felt flaky, without gravitas … and there were so many other women who could snatch it up.
” I don’t mind LO’s flirts but glimmering is soul-bulb lightening, too flashy and bright to forget….”
Yes, that would be painful to witness.
“The more I consciously want to let the memory go, the tighter my Unconscious grasp it… so I just have to categorize and accept it as one of imperfections in this world, in my tiny existence. 😞”
Can you get mad at him? I know that probably goes against your beliefs (the Buddhism, the Stoicsim) but it helped me. It was easier to be angry than hurt. Eventually a bulk of the anger fades. It’s a tool.
@Lovisa,
Please do not feel obligated to (dis)agree with anyone, women or not.
I guess my preference of people’ mind and heart over their physical, mechanical beings come from my childhood traumas, in which I was mentally or emotionally ignored, slighted, criticized, and abused. To me, genuine love comes from people’s eyes, attentions, words, and caring acts, not from “in love” highs/giddiness or “predators’ gaze”.
Both men and women are capable of PA (driven by biological instincts, Eros and Ludus, not by caring, Philia, Agape & Pragma ) with little care of their short-term or one-night mates, who are actually treated as “pleasurable objects.” We could go on deeply caring for our partner and family, so PA is much less of threatening to a stable, committed relationship.
But when EA occurs, one’s mind, heart, and soul will be gone to another person, only his/her physical shell, pretense, or lied are left for the partner or family; s/he won’t be able to have genuine intimacy with them, making them feel internally abandoned. That’s a much hurtful offense!
@Marcia,
“Can you get mad at him? I know that probably goes against your beliefs (the Buddhism, the Stoicsim) but it helped me. It was easier to be angry than hurt. Eventually a bulk of the anger fades. It’s a tool.”
I did get furious as if he “betrayed” me — what an illusion, I was never his SO or LO! Afterwards in past two years I pulled off two icy-face NC (which hurt me more in return), one LC, three NC in writing… but they did not decrease the hurt. It was largely reduced over summer mainly by my meditations, along with daily reminders of Buddhism and Stoicism and rambling in LwL.
Just now after typing in my previous message to you, the remembered scene struck my deep inside again and gave me a panic attack for a few seconds, as if I were abandoned suddenly by the entire world. I don’t understand why it still affects me this terribly, but this time my mind was verbalizing what was happening to me, so I didn’t feel like I have to immediately sit or lie down (was cooking).
Again, I’ll have to manage living with this pain in some sort of equilibrium; cannot resist or fight with it too much — the Unconscious might strike with opposites to compensate….
“Women are more troubled by a husband’s EA than PA because the husband might love his EA partner. ”
Miss Lovisa,
It has been a while, possibly back in 2019 when I read this survey online, but it asked 2500 men and 2500 women about infidelity. In the case of men, somewhere in the 80 percentile men said they have had an affair or would consider one because they were in a sexless marriage.
In the 80 percentile, as well, women said they have had or would consider an affair (EA) because their emotional needs were not getting met at home.
The interesting thing to me is, in what research and reading I have done on human sexuality, is that both men and women are reaching out for the same need. We, as two different genders, just go about it different ways.
I can’t speak for other men, but I know that physical intimacy is a huge way to meet my needs. I, by the long language test, am physical touch by a landslide. Nothing else even came remotely close. And that’s because physical intimacy is only for the two of us. I will never touch another woman in any fashion outside of a handshake. I don’t think even the women in my wife’s family I hugged regularly other than her grandmother. That is for the two of us only.
Momma asked me one day about that. This was some months back long after she was gone. She said “do you love her?” I without hesitation said yes. I told her I love her like I do your sisters, or your cousin or any other lady in my life that I care about. She then asked me “are you in love with her?” Then I could confidently say no. And I did. And meant it.
I also told Momma you were back to posting again and that you said Hi. Momma hasn’t posted in a while but she may check in on new posts from time to time to make sure I don’t backpedal down the rabbit hole again though.
Adam,
“I can’t speak for other men, but I know that physical intimacy is a huge way to meet my needs.”
It’s so the opposite for me. The older I get, the less interest I have in sex. As a topic to discuss, yes. As something fun to do to cruise dudes, yes. But to go out and hunt it down … no. I’d rather spend my time doing other things. If it showed up at my door and it was appealing, I wouldn’t turn it down. But long-term, the thought of having to tend to someone else’s sexual needs indefinitely … it makes me tired just thinking about it.
Marcia
My wife has said as much about herself. She tells me it’s not the limerence, it’s not me getting old or unattractive, just that the interest is no longer there. Unfortunately the older I get the further I go in the exact opposite direction of her. We’ll see what the future holds.
With us it’s the other way round, my SO seems to have less interest than me. Which is sometimes a problem and partly caused my physical desires in the LEs.
Yep, Adam, limerence is not a choice, unfortunately. It jus happens without your permission.
Lovisa, I go by those principles you mentioned. Have been married 46 years and never had the need to look outside marriage because all my needs, emotionally and physically, were met by my excellent SO!
If I’m here it’s because of limerence for and old SO I
had when young, that erupted like a volcano last year in a dream and took me by surprise, sent me looking for understanding this new “thing”… and it led me LwL. What a 🎢 roller coaster!!! He is in a different continent.
No Snow, I’m not a lone wolf. God forbid! I need people around me but I also enjoy long periods of solitude. About you posting about sex, yeah, I gather you’re hot female!!! As well as a very romantic one at that!!! Lucky the fellow that gets the opportunity to be your SO!
Best wishes to all and take it easy.💪🏽
Adam,
Part of my disinterest is age. I don’t have the seductive confidence I once had. I don’t understand women who say they get more confident with age. Yes, about who you are but not about sexual allure.
So how do you reconcile that? Knowing she’s not as interested?
Snowphoenix wrote:
“When Frenchman has a mistress, the wife gets her own lover.
When Italian man gets one, the wife threatens to a suicide.
When American guy sees a lover, the wife serves him a divorce paper and get a half of whatever he has…
In my COO when a man sees 1 or more mistresses, the wife (particularly after 35) closes one eye, as long as he still provides the bread to the family as before. ”
The French wife’s response seems healthiest to me: No drama, no self-harm, simply says, “What’s good for the goose is good for the gander!” lol
I’ve heard that Greek men, too, tend to see it as their right to have mistresses. While the wife is supposed to keep her eyes shut–and keep her love at home. I do hate these double standards.
I’m more in the camp of finding a PA worse than an EA. EA’s can come and go, but a PA can actually affect my health. And when we were younger, it could’ve also caused children outside the marriage. I just have the opinion that one’s thoughts are one’s own.
@Mila: Sounds like we’re in the same boat. I still have desires for my SO but he’s aging and I’m not feeling that interest I want him to have. There are also other physical issues because of health and, in my case, perimenopause. So LO comes along and acts very attracted to me, the glimmer starts.
Marcia, I’ve always been a confident woman, but I’m more confident in my forties. Sure my face and hands have aged, but the rest of me still looks great. I am amazed at what my body can do and how it looks. Yesterday, my SO watched me wax myself. He kept saying, “You are so feakin hot!” I love how he looks at me. I love how distracted he gets when we’re talking and I start changing into my pajamas. His goofy stare is adorable. Last night, I wasn’t wearing anything and I crawled across our bed to get something. Then my SO said, “Um, the remote is on your side will you get it for me?” I was like, “Sure!” So I crawled across our bed and came back with the remote. Without using it, my SO handed me the remote and said, “Will you put it back?” Then I realized that he just liked watching me crawl across our bed. So I giggled a little then exaggerated my movements and crawled slowly towards him. It was so fun!
“So how do you reconcile that? Knowing she’s not as interested?”
Live with it. I’m not missing sex. I’m missing sex with HER. Something I don’t think even she gets.
Louisa,
I had confidence in my 40s. But the 50s have not been kind.
In response to some posts by Marcia and Snowphoenix, I thought I’d respond in a separate post.
“The best I could come up with was, “I don’t think so.””
And she didn’t say anything after that?
I would have pressed for a lot more than that.”‘ – Marcia
The story of my disclosure is here: https://livingwithlimerence.com/should-you-disclose-to-your-significant-other/#comment-6445
Limerence is a minefield. You can get out of a minefield but unless you sweep them, the minefield remains and you can sail back into it later. I waited three years to disclose my LE/EA to my wife. If we were going to stay married, I didn’t want that minefield out there. I needed to come clean. Timing is everything.
Snowphoenix:
“You never met LO#4 but had an EA with her online? May I ask for how long? How did it affect your marriage? Do you think you’ve made a right decision to disclose it to your wife? How did or does she react?
How is your life going nowadays?” – Snowphoenix
This thread will hopefully answer some of your questions. It’s the history of my LE/EA with LO #4. It’s long.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/barriers-and-uncertainty/#comment-3739
Limerence has played a part in the dissolution of several marriages. We’ve seen stories of unrepentant LOs taking off on their marriages and families and we’ve seen SO’s of unrepentant limerents hit their limit and end the marriage.
The SME on the latter is a former poster named Lee. She was active in the 2018-2019 time frame. Her children are grown and she is financially stable so those didn’t seem to be as much of a consideration for her.
If you want to read how divorcing a spouse might play out, my story’s here: https://livingwithlimerence.com/when-things-have-got-physical/#comment-4055
Snow,
Things in this department are going well. Life has thrown some other wrenches in things but nobody’s life is clean.
@Limerent Emeritus,
That’s a heady EA in a marriage I’ve ever heard. It proves Marcia and my point, EA is stronger than PA, much toucher to get rid of — the mind, particularly emotion-dominant Unconscious, is mighty powerful, to me, more than instinctual drives (absent in your case).
LE,
“The best I could come up with was, “I don’t think so.””
And she didn’t say anything after that?
I would have pressed for a lot more than that.”‘ – Marcia
“The story of my disclosure is here: https://livingwithlimerence.com/should-you-disclose-to-your-significant-other/#comment-6445”
You know how I feel about links. 🙂
“Limerence is a minefield. You can get out of a minefield but unless you sweep them, the minefield remains and you can sail back into it later. I waited three years to disclose my LE/EA to my wife. If we were going to stay married, I didn’t want that minefield out there. I needed to come clean. Timing is everything.”
Why 3 years? That would have upset me. Not even so much the limerence, but the withholding of information. The latter would have upset me more.
@Limerent Emeritus,
That’s over dramatic! If the husband — the main problem, can’t solve his issue in the marriage, more other women will appear down the road, after this one is gone. So each time, the wife just send out a letter like this?
One can threatens to get rid of others “physically” or the other women could walk away, but can one solve their emotional troubles in the committed relationship? When one “other woman” leaves, the man would automatically changes and loves the wife? Do emotions work that way?
I would NOT take this road the wife&mother choose. I’ll take curing my emotional pains and mental sufferings (with SO and children) into my own hands, w/o SO’s help. I’ll strive to be a source of strength and wisdom in taking care of my own and my family’s troubled life.
https://youtu.be/yFPeA-7fZ4E?si=xsFPe2NO_x10nP-u — Don’t Suffer More than Needed/ Buddhist Philosophy on Pain and suffering.
I may even choose what a stereotype French wife would do — choose a lover or another husband.
@Serial Limerent,
“The French wife’s response seems healthiest to me: No drama, no self-harm, simply says, “What’s good for the goose is good for the gander!” lol“
Yes, among all choices, I’d choose a stereotype French woman’s road. It’s called “fairness”!
Poll time!
Ladies, would you rather be a wife or a mistress?
Optional requested information:
Age
Country
Poll time!
Gentlemen, would you rather be a husband or a lover?
Husband
Age: 67
Country: US
Age at marriage:32
# of marriages: 1
# of marriage proposals: 2
Length of marriage: 34 years
# of PAs: 0
# of EAs: 1
Age at start of last LE: 56
# of LOs: 4
Lover
Age: 52
Country: US
Age at marriage: 27
# of marriages: 1
Length of marriage: 12.5
# of PAs: 4
# of EAs: 1
Age at start of LE: 51
# of LOs: 1
MJ, that explains something. You frequently say that you were not good to your ex wife and I wonder if you’re being too hard on yourself. I understand now. That is a lot of PAs. Did she learn about all of them at once? Oh boy, you guys went through some rough times, but I think you’re a different person now. You treat the LwL ladies with kindness and respect.
I hope I didn’t hurt your feelings with my comment. I probably should have kept my thoughts to myself.
You are fine Lovisa. I knew that number would mean something.
I don’t really like advertising about it but I can’t deny it either. I could blame it on being high school sweethearts and never getting to sow my oats. I could blame it on her hot sister who looked amazing in cut offs. I could blame it on bad timing and my son being born with a physical deficiency. But the truth is, I was just too f#%@=n immature and selfish when I decided to tie the knot. What’s worse is it never let up. I never let it up.
For years my Mother had told me that every Woman has a breaking point and I never really believed her. Until it happened. I kept pushing the envelope with every devious plot in my sick head and then finally getting served paperwork. I then try to crawl back with puppy dog eyes and an impish, pathetic attempt to win her heart back. No freakin way..
If I’m hard on myself, it’s because I think I never saw the fallout that would come after the fact. I didn’t fight her in the divorce. I just didn’t cooperate. Infact I never signed one document she ever sent my way. (I did that on purpose) She still got the divorce anyway.
I just wanted it my way and she wasn’t going to have it. No she didn’t find out about the PAs all at once. They were simply my wrongdoings, that would just happen, and she kind of knew about, but swept them under the rug. Looking back, it really was an ugly situation and I regret just about all of it. Was the entire marriage a failure? I don’t think so because we made some pretty decent kids together, but now their life choices are weighing on me. And I’m still a pathetic middle aged man, alone and in love with a fantasy.
Like Dallas Green sang, in one of my favorite LO playlist songs,”Things we choose to care about” There ain’t enough whiskey in this world, to ease a tormented mind.
Wow, MJ, that is some good self-awareness. So now what? How long do you want to focus on the fantasy? Is the fantasy better than a real woman?
Who do you want to be now?
You know, I’m not entirely sure. Sometimes the LE seems better but to admit that seems insane. Perhaps it is.. Because there is no actual relationship there. All the good advice I get, I won’t heed. Stubborn or not, in languishing, I feel like I’ve already sorta lost it. In a way, that seems better than welcoming some new Woman into my Jerry Springer reality..
Whether or not you followed my story over the summer, I got rejected by 2 separate Therapists, citing my issues are too complex to tackle. (I.E.- Suicidal ideation must be out of their scope, wtf??) So I feel like that’s almost an issue not worth tackling. Even though I haven’t ruled it out. I’ve been talking to a Priest again. I feel like it’s a start, but I think it’s good also because he keeps me grounded.
We’ve known each other for years and he knows my story.
I’m just happy to have the people here at the forum to help out. Even though I haven’t been as active lately..
MJ,
Did either of the therapists say why they wouldn’t work with you?
A lot of therapists won’t work with patients that they think have Cluster B personality disorders. One of therapists I worked with when I was talking to her about LO #2 told me that.
Keep looking for a therapist who will work with you.
In either event, I mentioned if they knew anything about limerence and they didn’t. They both seemed dumbfounded upon my explanation. So I think thats a primary reason for rejection.
The first Therapist also cited an insurance issue, but also because she said she could only work with me if it was an alcohol or drug dependency problem.
Which alcohol and drug dependency never even came up in our initial conversation. So it proved she wasn’t paying attention.
I blame the limerence definition because both of them seemed in the dark and almost like I was speaking in a foreign language about it..
MJ,
“ Suicidal ideation must be out of their scope, wtf??) So I feel like that’s almost an issue not worth tackling.”
It’s an issue worth tackling. Do you have a safety plan? Tell me your safety plan.
I mentioned to both Therapists that the idea of suicide had crossed my mind. I had no real intent to actually carry it out. The idea just seemed appealing in the moment. There were nights after work, especially after LO left, that I felt so torn and broken, I had considered running my car off a bridge or into a wall at 90mph. I just felt like there wasn’t a point in going on. Yet I knew I couldn’t let my kids down like that. Not over a fantasy..
They might have been my only safety plan. Either that or I called my ex, just to tell her I was having a moment. Even though it doesn’t really count. I feel half the time like I’m off my rocker, but talking to my Son can bring me back into reality. But I still get sad. I’ve been feeling hopeless for a long time. I think I’m used to feeling like this but at times, so wish I had made better choices. Which includes my current choice of employment. Sure the money might be good, but it’s not worth the mental assault I put on myself.
I’m very hard on myself, but thats why I looked up what I could online and then found this place. I feel like nobody has or ever will affect me like LO.
MJ, we are making progress. You have something to live for: your family. You know how to bring yourself back to reality: talk to your son. Woohoo! I love your ideas! You already had this figured out. Hmmmmm, I feel unneeded. I kind of like being unneeded in a situation like this. Good job, MJ!
Oh I still need you Lovisa. Never forget that. Seeing you back here feels right. I’m glad you decided to return. I really admire your positive approach to things. The good Den Mother you are.
I’m appreciative of all of the Community here. At times it has even been better than therapy..
Thanks, MJ
Affairs always baffle me. It just seems like a whole lot of effort, if it is with a committed person or committed yourself as well, for such a minimal output. Especially PA. Not to TMI but I can do that myself. All the sneaking, lying, back tracking, covering your tracks, etc. And in this day and age with technology as it is, it’s even more difficult.
When I had the chance at one, I turned her down flat out right away. Not judging anyone here but I couldn’t imagine sharing something like that with this woman that probably hadn’t been married longer than the age of her 5-6 year old daughter that was with her and she’s already doing this? And I am sure I wasn’t the first. If she’s 20 something, hardly married, and probably married because of the child, and cheating, or at least trying to, already…..yeah no. Not the kind of woman I would want to be with in any kind of capacity no matter how well she lay a man.
Amen Brother!
Adam,
I heard this one and immediately thought of you.
“Sundown” – Gordon Lightfoot (1974)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItdxaXNyuyE
Wow I haven’t heard that in a long time. I think my folks had an LP of his, and for some reason I liked this song a lot. And listened to it a lot too despite not really knowing what it was about. Just assuming he was singing about a woman. But if you ask me now the lyrics sound a lot like drinking. Especially ….
“Sometimes I think it’s a shame
When I get feelin’ better when I’m feelin’ no pain”
“Sometimes I think it’s a sin
When I feel like I’m winnin’ when I’m losin’ again”
Interesting how our perspective changes with our life experiences. Life teaches us things and then we hear things differently. I like that about music.
One has to think about the health implications (ewww) not to mention the morality of the matter. I have never had an affair, but have thought about it (not planned to do it, just wondered what it would be like). My therapist said that affairs lead to people who do it undergoing a radical change of self-concept (I guess most people think they are good and honest and an affair changes that) and that is often what causes a lot of torture for people (if you have a conscience, I guess). Which is worse: blow my life up and divorce an SO if I was going to sleep with someone else; or have an affair? Both end up with a world of hurt …
You’re a better man than I am Adam.
Believe that.. 👈🏻
“which is worse: blow my life up and divorce an SO if I was going to sleep with someone else; or have an affair?”
Charity Grande
If it we’re me, I would hope that my wife would end it. I would be hurt still and probably drink myself to death. But I know I could still respect her honesty and her own self awareness by knowing our relationship isn’t healthy, or whatever, for her and wanting to move one with another man.
An affair would hurt more. Along with feeling unwanted and unloved I would feel disrespected and belittled. I’ve told my wife in the hypothetical conversations we have had over the years that I would tell her if I wasn’t getting what I wanted out of the marriage and wanted to move on with another woman. However limerence has taught me one lesson about myself; I may not have the fortitude I thought I did.
Yeah, early on in my latest LE I couldn’t help but think there was no way it could turn into a PA just because of all the logistics and time involved! There’s usually someone at home who would know I left, LO’s inbox is constantly full and so is his schedule, etc. etc. I read the book about Candy Montgomery and Allen Gore and all the trouble they had to go through to schedule their trysts. It’s easier just to stay home!
Serial Limerent,
“I read the book about Candy Montgomery and Allen Gore and alld the trouble they had to go through to schedule their trysts.”
Texas Monthly has the definitive true crime article on their relationship and Betty’s murder. You can probably find it online.
What I found interesting is that Candy didn’t pick Allen becasuse she was really that into him. He was there, kind of handy, and she was bored. Wanted some excitement.
But surely they made meeting up 80 more times difficult than it had to be.
Wife who takes lovers 😜
And the lovers are all 25 years old!! 🙂
Athletes in their 30s or 40s. 😝
No, no. That’s too old. 🙂
Once they reach 26, they get a nice severance package. 🙂
Anyone under 30 is an “immature” boy, not a “savouring” man. My best three (talked yesterday), was 32 (Buddhist meditator), 34 (triathlon), 41 (Narc, LO #6).
We’re talking about an hour-long relationship to savor the beauty. Sometimes a snack is perfectly fine. We don’t always need a full-blown meal. 🙂 And sometimes a full-blown meal TAKES TOO MUCH TIME! 🙂
Marcia, you are an interesting lady. I don’t think a snack would satisfy me. If I liked him, I would want emotional intimacy. If I didn’t like him, then I wouldn’t want to snack on him. Snowphoenix is right, men in their 20s wouldn’t have enough depth. I’d feel like I was babysitting, ewe. Don’t get me wrong, they’re adorable and I love running with them, but nothing else. I prefer men my age or older. I like depth.
Fellas, sorry to talk about you in an objectifying way.
Lovisa,
“Marcia, you are an interesting lady. I don’t think a snack would satisfy me. If I liked him, I would want emotional intimacy. If I didn’t like him, then I wouldn’t want to snack on him. Snowphoenix is right, men in their 20s wouldn’t have enough depth. I’d feel like I was babysitting, ewe. Don’t get me wrong, they’re adorable and I love running with them, but nothing else. I prefer men my age or older. I like depth.”
We’re taking about taking a lover, right, in this hypothetical situation? Presumably the husband would give you depth. Wouldn’t you want a lover to provide a much different experience? And don’t you think most men would take younger lovers? Why shouldn’t women? But I also meant “snack” in terms of an individual, sexual session. They all don’t have to go on forever in terms of time. Sometimes it’s fun to realize you only have 15 minutes to work with. That’s a lot you can accomplish in that time. 🙂
“Fellas, sorry to talk about you in an objectifying way.”
I’m not apologizing. They do it to our side all day long. 🙂
@Marcia,
I don’t have experiences of maintaining a hubby with lovers yet, it’s hypothetical. I just wish the hubby is open-minded enough and have tints of French blood, with ample trust and confidence that he’s loved and served with quality prior to all other lovers.
I have met men in their twenties, and boys in their fifties. Just sayin’.
Good point, CharityGrande!
But if they’re under 40, I just wouldn’t be interested.
Men under 40, it’s not you, it’s me. You are wonderful to younger women. I liked men under 40 when I was under 40. There are many lovely ladies who are interested in men under 40. My friend, Marcia for example prefers men under 40…
Snowphoenix,
“I just wish the hubby is open-minded enough and have tints of French blood, with ample trust and confidence that he’s loved and served with quality prior to all other lovers.”
I’ve often wondered if that would be the way a good number of women could have a purely physical affair. They have their emotional needs meet by another guy. I know you’re written you don’t want a purely physical affair, but I think it would be easier to not get hung up on the lover if you have a husband at home.
@Marcia,
“I’ve often wondered if that would be the way a good number of women could have a purely physical affair. They have their emotional needs meet by another guy.”
I think a good number of women were/are having them in discreet throughout history — “A half of royal descendants in Europe were bastards!” The news only reports extreme cases that went wrong, demonizing PAs. Imagine if the media reports all “successful” PAs around the world!
“I know you’re written you don’t want a purely physical affair, but I think it would be easier to not get hung up on the lover if you have a husband at home.”
I’ve been a limerent all my life (only unknown before), and was unable to hold more than one LO in my head at a time. I tried pure PAs without a hubby and LOs, but they bored me soon or later. Without glimmer and affection involved, PA is just too mechanical, detached, and alienated. In addition, anyone with cptsd (un)consciously hates and avoids emotional distance — easily trigger off abandonment melange.
So even allowed socially, I can’t get hung up on the lover when a husband is at home. As a limerent, I did not even want PA with another when an unavailable LO was around — the damned Glimmer!
So it’s an impossible fantasy for ME to be a Wife + lovers! It’s fun to toss and debate about the idea in this place.
@Marcia,
Let’s explore fashions of taking and making fabulous lovers without the existence of a husband.
“We’re talking about an hour-long relationship to savor the beauty.”
Are you talking about having a juicy hamburg in a restaurant? What an American efficiency! An hour is barely enough time to savor an appetizer — touching the map of two torsos and moving the SE neurons in the valley.
“Sometimes a snack is perfectly fine…I also meant “snack” in terms of an individual, sexual session. They all don’t have to go on forever in terms of time. Sometimes it’s fun to realize you only have 15 minutes to work with. That’s a lot you can accomplish in that time. 🙂
How can making the art of desirable love and of superb lovers be like taking a snack in 15 minutes 😱; the shorter time it takes, the quicker the both sides become an object to each other and get bored of each other soon. (I prefer long-term, somewhat emotional invested, if the glimmer is missing)
“We don’t always need a full-blown meal. 🙂 And sometimes a full-blown meal TAKES TOO MUCH TIME! 🙂”
Yes, we do! We cannot be so stingy with time in making this supreme, most desirable art on the earth! Let’s be honest to admit, “ “Sexual pleasure is a passion to which all others are subordinate but in which they all unite.” — Marquis de Sade.
The tradition French lunch takes two hours (now shortened to 1.5 hours), during which new/“lousy” lovers could finish the main course, but rushed (remember an hour is used for appetizer) leaving almost no time for dessert. So minimum three hours are required.
For well-acquainted lovers, they cook for us (and vice versa) dinner at their (our) den and we blow each other’s ears off with music, films, philosophy, literature, psychology, sports, etc. in a bubble bath…. So a full-blown meal starts at the dinner and finishes after a brunch of the following day filled with snoozes and operatic wave-ridings to the Moon…😋
“And don’t you think most men would take younger lovers? Why shouldn’t women?”
Women should, absolutely! just to fit the traditional definition!😋 Older ones are for marriage.
Snowphoenix,
“How can making the art of desirable love and of superb lovers be like taking a snack in 15 minutes 😱; the shorter time it takes, the quicker the both sides become an object to each other and get bored of each other soon. (I prefer long-term, somewhat emotional invested, if the glimmer is missing)”
Because they’re something really hot about saying, “We have 15 mintues. Go.” It’s intense. It’s immediate. You’re clawing at each other.
“The tradition French lunch takes two hours (now shortened to 1.5 hours), during which new/“lousy” lovers could finish the main course, but rushed (remember an hour is used for appetizer) leaving almost no time for dessert. So minimum three hours are required.”
Shortened is 1.5 hours?! I’m tired just thinking about it. Maybe every now and then. But you have to vary it. Or THAT gets boring. Plus, I’d imagine, as a woman, that might get physically uncomfortable.
If someone expected a full-blown production like that every time, I’d never get on stage. That would start to feel belabored.
“Women should, absolutely! just to fit the traditional definition!😋 Older ones are for marriage.”
Marriage and money. “)
Snowphoenix,
“I did not even want PA with another when an unavailable LO was around — the damned Glimmer!”
So you’re not with people unless you’re limerent for them? That seems like a really high standard to meet.
I haven’t been limerent for that many people. Then they have to be interested in me and available. Then things have to move forward. That’s a lot of hoops to jump through.
The last guy I spent time with … I had crush on him but I wasn’t limerent, and when it ended, it was sOOOOO much easier to get over than my LO was. And I was happy about that. I was a short-term situation. There was no need to get hung up on some guy who was in my life for 3 seconds. Even more ridiculous was getting hung on my LO, who wasn’t in my life at all!!
@Marcia,
“Because they’re something really hot about saying, “We have 15 minutes. Go.” It’s intense. It’s immediate. You’re clawing at each other.”
I know what you mean, but it only bring short “local” high, not pleasurable enough to me.
“Shortened is 1.5 hours?! I’m tired just thinking about it. Maybe every now and then. But you have to vary it. Or THAT gets boring. Plus, I’d imagine, as a woman, that might get physically uncomfortable.”
That’s why a lover has to be somewhat appealing and interesting with brain (not a walking SE machine); otherwise, 15 minutes would be too long and boring. If one knows how to generates and move life-force waves internally, she can surf as long as she wishes, bringing the whole body and mind to the blissful Moon…. All your worldly worries would be gone for the time being, trust me on this. ☺️
“If someone expected a full-blown production like that every time, I’d never get on stage. That would start to feel belabored.”
It’s most delightful “labor” that could invigorate both sides, but an able recipient is hard to find. One runs such a session actually to reduce wariness, tiredness, and even physical aching; better than other type of physical workouts.
“So you’re not with people unless you’re limerent for them? That seems like a really high standard to meet.”
No, I was saying my preference. As I said before, my best lovers (a lot lousy ones were off the stage) were not my LOs. With LOs, my expecting, anxious mind was interfering, thus somehow diluted SEs.
“I haven’t been limerent for that many people. Then they have to be interested in me and available.”
My big glimmer came rarely (with several small crushes and LEs coming and going since my teens), and somehow it was always at unavailable men, which fact was unknown before the glimmer just hit me in the first 5 seconds when spotted a stranger LO. My conscious mind NEVER chose it, but that damned genomic drive DID! That was my foe! Then once it was in, LE grasped me quickly if LO was around to interact with.
“Even more ridiculous was getting hung on my LO, who wasn’t in my life at all!!”
My logical thinking agrees with you on this literally 1000 times, but my psyche or Unconscious would not listen to my conscious Ego-mind. My habitual, strong imagination (came from cptsd) took the matter in its own hand, limerent with the DESIRE, or the HOPE, or the Passion itself, not even realistic LOs anymore, who became a mere bystander — did not totally disappear either.
Then, I became a Don Quixote, “To dream the impossible dream, to fight the unbeatable foe, to bear with unbearable sorrow, to run where the brave dare not go.” There were times in this LE I was pondering about being a perpetually indecisive Hamlet or single-minded, passionate Don Quixote (he knew what he was doing), and enacted both at different times. I had no regrets.
“So long as we desire, we can do without happiness. if happiness fails to come, hope persists, and illusion’s charm lasts as long as the passion causing it. Thus, this condition suffices to itself and the anxiety it inflicts is a pleasure, which supplants reality, perhaps bettering it. Woe to him who has nothing to desire! He loses everything he owns. We enjoy less what we obtain than what we desire, and are happy only before becoming so.”
With this LE, I literally experienced the above passage. And if someone tried to kill the illusions, hopes and pleasures, I got furious… To ruin even an illusional, hope is CRUEL, like trying to take away someone’s religious faith — their God.
I’m very aware that this is the worst limerence one could ever possibly slip into — imagination is more powerful than logic, fantasy is more beautiful than so flawed reality…
But my Unconscious suddenly struck on my limerence on 10/16, making me begging to experience post-LE void, it even took away some effective power of my meditation.
Typo: making me beginning to experience post-LE void.
As you know this “void” is horrible, dulling everything I need to do and discouraging what I thought I wanted to do… what’s the meaning and who cares⁉️
Snopwphoenix,
“I know what you mean, but it only bring short “local” high, not pleasurable enough to me.
Sounds good to me. I’d take fast, hot and sweaty over slow any day. 🙂
“That’s why a lover has to be somewhat appealing and interesting with brain (not a walking SE machine); otherwise, 15 minutes would be too long and boring. If one knows how to generates and move life-force waves internally, she can surf as long as she wishes, bringing the whole body and mind to the blissful Moon…. All your worldly worries would be gone for the time being, trust me on this. ☺️”
I have no idea what you are talking about.
The hottest sex I’ve had has been with LOs. So of course I was wildly attracted to them. They were similiar in their approach. Confident and aggressive. Handsy. 🙂 That’s about all it was. Sounds like an easy to thing to find. It wasn’t. Maybe I’m a sexually shallow person. 🙂
“It’s most delightful “labor” that could invigorate both sides, but an able recipient is hard to find. One runs such a session actually to reduce wariness, tiredness, and even physical aching; better than other type of physical workouts.”
I’ve had one really long session. Did not go back for seconds! (Just to be clear, I don’t mean spending hours in bed. I mean that ONE time done to completion was taking a really long time.)
“With LOs, my expecting, anxious mind was interfering, thus somehow diluted SEs.”
I liked the anxiety. Got me all riled up. 🙂
“My big glimmer came rarely (with several small crushes and LEs coming and going since my teens), and somehow it was always at unavailable men, which fact was unknown before the glimmer just hit me in the first 5 seconds when spotted a stranger LO. ”
A decent number of my LOs were unavailable. Of course, I had no way of knowing that upon meeting them. But I wonder if there was something in my subconscious that picked up on their unavailability.
@Marcia,
“Sounds good to me. I’d take fast, hot and sweaty over slow any day. 🙂”
Are you talking about skiing? I dislike skiing either on a snowy slope or a hot bed… hand in hand, toe in toe “strolling in physiological sunrise” is much more pleasant and erotic. Savor, intimate lovers!
Also, speed only stimulates a local high, not energize and recharge every cell of a whole body, especially a tiring one.
“…. All your worldly worries would be gone for the time being, trust me on this. ☺️”
I have no idea what you are talking about.”
Hmmm… it’s hard to use common metaphors here… when lovers reach the peak of SE, it’s like riding on tip of a wave locally for a few seconds… Imagine their whole body rides on many waves like in surfing for two-digit minutes or just stay up there for a long while without crashing down? (—ladies’ privilege). I talked about this more than 2 months ago… While riding on the waves, all mental and emotional “blocks/issues” in our psyche would be broken down, for following hours or even days — one aspect of Easter energy-medicine.
“The hottest sex I’ve had has been with LOs”
Rarely in my cases 😌, except in my fantasies, unfortunately. My LOs were more or less out of my imagination, based on a realistic, enigmatic LO.
SE in the West is popularly seen as a romantic Performance, boosting one’s ego (particularly males), while it’s more thought in East as the most pleasurable means for physical and mental health, by connecting lovers’s body, mind and soul, and mutually giving and receiving. In former, one gets tired after a hard or long Performance; in latter, one gets recharged and energized by one’s own Qi, circulated maximumly through SEF (flow). It takes time to savor and move Qi of all bodies’ neurons.
“I liked the anxiety. Got me all riled up. 🙂”
I liked familiarity and safety, so as to free the body and mind maximumly, breaking all subconscious inhibitions.
“But I wonder if there was something in my subconscious that picked up on their unavailability.”
That seems to be the case of many limerents, including me. When spotted a LO in 5 seconds, all I was able to see was that it’s a man with eyes that looked VERY familiar, God knows from where, perhaps from my previous life — I don’t believe twin flame theory! 🙃
@Snowpheonix
“When spotted a LO in 5 seconds, all I was able to see was that it’s a man with eyes that looked VERY familiar, God knows from where, perhaps from my previous life — I don’t believe twin flame theory!”
In your case, it’s probably your father, from the things you’ve written so far. The married LO you spoke of a lot in the comments seems to mimic your father’s hot and cold attention/affections that he had given and not given you in your past stories.
Sorry for suddenly barging in, but I’ve been a lurker here in LWL and read most comments and many of Dr L’s posts. But I write a tiny bit more about my own LE in the community forum under this same username.
Anyway, back to lurker mode 😉 And sorry if I replied in the wrong thread as I don’t see the reply button under your post, nor am I aware of how to reply in the right thread.
Snowphoenix,
“Are you talking about skiing?”
SKIING?!! No, I’m talking about sex.
This just goes to show how fundamentally different people can be about sex. It’s called an erotic blueprint. I think you can take a quiz online. I’m trying to remember all the types … Sensual, Energetic, Sexual, Kinky and Shapeshifter.
If you get two people who have fundamentally different types … it can be a trainwreck.
“Savor, intimate lovers!”
You’re the Sensual type. I’m sure of it. You don’t need to take the quiz. 🙂
“Rarely in my cases 😌, except in my fantasies, unfortunately. My LOs were more or less out of my imagination, based on a realistic, enigmatic LO.”
I don’t see how something can be realistic and enigmatic at the same time. Those words are contradictory.
“I liked familiarity and safety, so as to free the body and mind maximumly, breaking all subconscious inhibitions.”
On a certain level, lust is wanting to get at something you don’t have. At least for me. Wondering what the other person is going to do. What are they gong to try? When are they going to try it?
I mean, a certain level of safety allows you to relax enough to free yourself. But too much … kills desire.
“That seems to be the case of many limerents, including me. When spotted a LO in 5 seconds, all I was able to see was that it’s a man with eyes that looked VERY familiar, God knows from where, perhaps from my previous life — I don’t believe twin flame theory! 🙃”
Commenter Why put it really well, in terms of my situation. It may fit yours.
“In your case, it’s probably your father, from the things you’ve written so far. The married LO you spoke of a lot in the comments seems to mimic your father’s hot and cold attention/affections that he had given and not given you in your past stories.”
It always goes back to the parentals. 🙁
@Marcia
I tried to comment on your post, but LwL would not post it. When I tried again, it says it’s a duplicate.
This time, I saved the draft though.
I replied Why’s comment in “Why are they leading me on?” Blog
@Marcia,
“This just goes to show how fundamentally different people can be about sex. It’s called an erotic blueprint. I think you can take a quiz online. I’m trying to remember all the types … Sensual, Energetic, Sexual, Kinky and Shapeshifter.
If you get two people who have fundamentally different types … it can be a trainwreck.”
I think two emotionally involved lovers would be eager to learn all types and become Shapeshifter.
“You’re the Sensual type. I’m sure of it. You don’t need to take the quiz. 🙂”
Hmm…. You’ve already become my personal coach! 😜
“I don’t see how something can be realistic and enigmatic at the same time. Those words are contradictory.”
I meant I don’t know LO in reality very well, they remain enigmatic. Who I am in limerence with in my fantasy is the phantom of LO, an idealized version.
“On a certain level, lust is wanting to get at something you don’t have. At least for me. “
Unknowns are attractive to explore only under familiarity and safety, knowing that your lover/partner is trustworthy and they care about your wellbeing far most.
“Wondering what the other person is going to do. What are they gong to try? When are they going to try it?”
Sounds a bit passive here. Why not trying something you want or eager to find out and decide when to try it?
“I mean, a certain level of safety allows you to relax enough to free yourself. But too much … kills desire.”
Of course, not all the time just with familiarity. Due to my cptsd, I first need to FEEL at home— very hard to feel with strangers, new lovers, or even my SD (he was a big sweet boy.); then other adventures.
“Commenter Why put it really well, in terms of my situation. It may fit yours.”
I answered his comment on “Why are they leading me on?” Blog.
“It always goes back to the parental. 🙁”
Yes. But in my case, none of my LOs, at whom I instinctually glimmered, resembled Mom or Dad, if anything, opposite. If LO behaved like Mom, I might physically punch his face — I did to LO #6, who was a Narc just like Mom; the only two faces I ever punched in my life!
If LO reminded me my Dad in someways, I’d rebel his wishes and verbally twist his head off… 🤓 It’s definitely not with the current LO, who just listened to whatever I had to say, positive or negative, rarely giving a feedback…
After cutting two lines, my longer, original post is posted now. Nothing I said was crossing a red line… Weird!
I guess it’s a technical glitch. 🙂
Snowphoenix,
“I think two emotionally involved lovers would be eager to learn all types and become Shapeshifter.”
I mean, to a certain extent. But if you have fundamentally different preferences, it just won’t work. And it’s, frankly, too much work.
And if you have similar tastes, not only is it effortless … but it’s shazam! 🙂
“I meant I don’t know LO in reality very well, they remain enigmatic. Who I am in limerence with in my fantasy is the phantom of LO, an idealized version.”
Does that mean they remained a fantasy in your mind and there was no sex?
“Sounds a bit passive here. Why not trying something you want or eager to find out and decide when to try it?”
Well, you can. But the thrill of it is … you don’t know exactly what’s going to happen.
“Of course, not all the time just with familiarity. Due to my cptsd, I first need to FEEL at home— very hard to feel with strangers, new lovers”
Oh, ok. It’s not that I don’t like any level of familiarity. But the novelty and newness are elements that ratchet up “the sexy.” Before each person falls into a script they keep following. Some of that’s inevitable.
“I answered his comment on “Why are they leading me on?” Blog.”
I don’t look at links and I don’t dig through other posts. 🙂
“It’s definitely not with the current LO, who just listened to whatever I had to say, positive or negative, rarely giving a feedback…”
I’m sure my LOs have something to do with my father. As loathe as I am to admit that.
Marcia,
“I mean, to a certain extent. But if you have fundamentally different preferences, it just won’t work. And it’s, frankly, too much work.”
You’re right, fundamental differences would not work. I think each person has a mixture of 2-3 types. To me, kinky is a turn-off.
And if you have similar tastes, not only is it effortless … but it’s shazam! 🙂
It takes for some effort for any two to reach “effortless”.
“Does that mean they remained a fantasy in your mind and there was no sex?”
Only LO #1, #7 are platonic; I married LO #4. The current #7 is most enigmatic and the ONLY one who has SO and did not reciprocate, which subsequently created a limerent fantasy — the Phantom of LO. Tunnov is quite accurate.
“Well, you can. But the thrill of it is … you don’t know exactly what’s going to happen.”
It sounds like you like to be led… Even if you lead, you still would not know how they’re going to react; may be more turned on…
“Oh, ok. It’s not that I don’t like any level of familiarity. But the novelty and newness are elements that ratchet up “the sexy.” Before each person falls into a script they keep following. Some of that’s inevitable.”
I never liked novelty in anything. I think everyone thinks or feels differently about “the sexy”; one needs to explore what’s are turn-ons individualistically and how to stay on the tidal waves as long as one wishes. Following script is not only boring and but may also “damage” one’s confidence if the body’s preferences fall outside of the box.
“I don’t look at links and I don’t dig through other posts. 🙂”
If posters are not rolled down too fast, one could see every new posts on the right of the screen. I wish the screen could keep 20 latest posts, instead of 10.
Here is my answer to “Why” —
https://livingwithlimerence.com/why-are-they-leading-me-on/#comment-48030
“I’m sure my LOs have something to do with my father. As loathe as I am to admit that.”
I’m sorry to hear your experience, I feel the similar way towards my mother, whom I still deal with regularly. But I’m growing more compassion for her, as she’s physically getting weaker and thus mentally mellow….
Snowphoenix,
“I think each person has a mixture of 2-3 types. ”
Yeah, agree.
“To me, kinky is a turn-off.”
I don’t mind a little bit of it. Probably “kinky lite.” 🙂
“It takes for some effort for any two to reach “effortless”.”
It can be effortless. Certainly not every part of it … but … bits and pieces, maybe. Have you ever kissed someone for the first time and were floored and thought, “Oh, my God!”? And then with another person, “This is a bit awkward”?
Sometimes it clicks. Sometimes it doesn’t. I don’t really believe in the concept of good and bad sex. It’s just personal preference.
“It sounds like you like to be led…”
I do. And it’s so rare!
I can take the more aggressive role. I have. I did with my last LO. Made the first move. But I prefer someone to pursue me in the beginning. I find that the sex is hotter. They know what they want … and they’re coming after it. 🙂
“Even if you lead, you still would not know how they’re going to react; may be more turned on…”
Very true. Could surpise the hell out of them. 🙂
“I never liked novelty in anything.”
I do. Six months into a new job, for example, and I think: Is this it? There has to be more to it than this.
“Following script is not only boring and but may also “damage” one’s confidence if the body’s preferences fall outside of the box.”
That’s not what I meant. Everyone follows a sexual script, to an extent. Has “go-to” moves, so to speak. We are all habitual creatures. There are only so many ways to do it. Over time, you have a pretty good idea of what someone will do. It’s inevitable.
“If posters are not rolled down too fast, one could see every new posts on the right of the screen. I wish the screen could keep 20 latest posts, instead of 10.”
I agree. It’s hard to find the past posts.
“But I’m growing more compassion for her, as she’s physically getting weaker and thus mentally mellow….”
I’m glad you’re able to do that. I wasn’t able to do that with my father. I still feel quite angry at him. Angry and disappointed.
@Marcia,
Just saw Matthew Perry’s death, so sad! Look what childhood trauma — the rooted sense of abandonment, could do to a celebrity with look, fame, popularity and financial resources. With the tangible and intangible ample supplies and 30 years of therapy twice a week, he is not saved! By compassion, I feel luckily to be “addicted” to limerence, instead of other deadly chemical substances.
Another NYT article of today is worth of reading — https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/10/29/magazine/marina-abramovic-interview.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare — the Pain of Love is Hell on Earth. No kidding!
“Sometimes it clicks. Sometimes it doesn’t. I don’t really believe in the concept of good and bad sex. It’s just personal preference.”
To me, there is a clear difference between good and bad sex, the latter brings one “aroused hunger”, stuck energy, psychophysiological deprivation, unspeakable frustration/anger. By comparison in proportion, women are more deprived, because their partners or lovers don’t take time to meet their needs, which sometime women themselves are even unaware of…. Of course, each person’s capable appetite or need varies greatly — a tidal wave ride is enough for one woman, but a dozen for another….
“But I prefer someone to pursue me in the beginning. I find that the sex is hotter. They know what they want … and they’re coming after it. 🙂”
I never took the first move with a new date or lover; if they were bed, there would be no 2nd time. Only with acquainted lovers, I’d try a lead occasionally. There is few women “worshipers” and appreciators/feminists out there.
“I never liked novelty in anything.”
I do. Six months into a new job, for example, and I think: Is this it? There has to be more to it than this.
I asked the same question in three days, particularly in administrative parts. My mind needs constant challenges daily; otherwise, I’m bored. I don’t care about novelty in material world — still use iPhone 7, and I do not own a TV set for years, uninterested in most technological gadgets.
“That’s not what I meant. Everyone follows a sexual script, to an extent. Has “go-to” moves, so to speak. We are all habitual creatures. There are only so many ways to do it. Over time, you have a pretty good idea of what someone will do. It’s inevitable.”
I’m a meditator, so repetition and familiarity bring me a sense of safe attachment, belonging, and spiritual peace for the time of being. With cptsd — risky unknowns, fleeting excitement, and almost instinctual fear of abandonment, I am very reluctant to venture in love-making. Majority of guys I encountered were inadequate both psychically and psychologically, so disappointing….
“I’m glad you’re able to do that. I wasn’t able to do that with my father. I still feel quite angry at him. Angry and disappointed.”
Just read Mathew Perry’s relationship with his mother! I was a “latchkey” kid literally — had a long string of keys on my neck since I was 6, and got unwarned facial slaps from Narc Mom whenever she deemed I did some housework 10 minutes “delayed”… Dad could not stop her, until I finally, at age of 15, gave her one slap back on her face immediately following hers!
Nowadays, her frailty arouses my compassion a little bit; but sometimes, in my mind, I still wanted to slap the young version of her until I beat the devil out of her. You have no idea how ruthless and cold her face looked during my childhood and youth; she still has not apologized for her behaviors and says all COO parents did the same — a part cultural norm! (Read Marina Abramovic’s talk on NYT today)
Typo: Majority of guys I encountered were inadequate both physically and psychologically.
Snowphoenix,
“Just saw Matthew Perry’s death, so sad! Look what childhood trauma — the rooted sense of abandonment, could do to a celebrity with look, fame, popularity and financial resources. With the tangible and intangible ample supplies and 30 years of therapy twice a week, he is not saved! By compassion, I feel luckily to be “addicted” to limerence, instead of other deadly chemical substances.”
Yeah, I read he had passed last night. As you wrote, he had childhood trauma and really bad addiction issues. I’m not sure if the the former causes the latter.
“Another NYT article of today is worth of reading — https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/10/29/magazine/marina-abramovic-interview.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare — the Pain of Love is Hell on Earth. No kidding!”
I can’t get into NYT. I don’t have a subscription. I only get one online subscription at a time. Now, I have an online magazine called “Air Mail.” I recommend it. They have all kinds of interesting art news (though it’s not as well-written as NYT). Here’s one: In the new book “Charlie Chaplin vs. America”, Scott Eyman revisits the filmmaker’s exile in Switzerland after his art, his sex, and his politics collided.
“To me, there is a clear difference between good and bad sex, the latter brings one “aroused hunger”, stuck energy, psychophysiological deprivation, unspeakable frustration/anger. ”
I’m sorry. I don’t look at sex as being that heavy. It’s a moment, and then the moment is over when the sex is over. If there’s more to it than just sex, that, to me, has little to do with whether or not sex is involved.
And I think the feminist movement gave men the wrong idea of how much time women sometimes need.
“I never took the first move with a new date or lover; if they were bed, there would be no 2nd time.”
I don’t know what that means.
“I don’t care about novelty in material world — still use iPhone 7, and I do not own a TV set for years, uninterested in most technological gadgets.”
Me, neither. No TV. Old phone, old computer.
“With cptsd — risky unknowns, fleeting excitement, and almost instinctual fear of abandonment, I am very reluctant to venture in love-making. Majority of guys I encountered were inadequate both psychically and psychologically, so disappointing”
I guess I dealt with my cptsd differently. Too much familiarity … and the guy feels like a friend. And with a couple of exceptions, I’ve never been attracted to my guy friends.
“Dad could not stop her, until I finally, at age of 15, gave her one slap back on her face immediately following hers!”
Did that stop her from slapping you again?
“she still has not apologized for her behaviors ”
My father is the same way. He’ll never admit anything. He blames other people or even me for his parental choices. There’s no accountability.
@Marcia
“Yeah, I read he had passed last night. As you wrote, he had childhood trauma and really bad addiction issues. I’m not sure if the the former causes the latter.”
Yes, it is! Please watch this shortest video on the subject, I’ve been following Dr. Gabor Mate (a MD) for a while and am convinced by his “theory” based on biology —
https://youtu.be/BVg2bfqblGI?si=MbHyEOLP9IqwiIz7 — How Childhood traumas lead to addiction.
“Now, I have an online magazine called “Air Mail.” I recommend it. They have all kinds of interesting art news (though it’s not as well-written as NYT). Here’s one: In the new book “Charlie Chaplin vs. America”, Scott Eyman revisits the filmmaker’s exile in Switzerland after his art, his sex, and his politics collided.”
I’ll check Air Mail out. Through work, I get NYT for free.
“I’m sorry. I don’t look at sex as being that heavy. It’s a moment, and then the moment is over when the sex is over. If there’s more to it than just sex, that, to me, has little to do with whether or not sex is involved.”
I tried your way but found myself just can’t deal with sex without my mind involved; to me, a satisfied SE has to be somewhat romantic, physical, and spiritual related, not necessary a LE.
“And I think the feminist movement gave men the wrong idea of how much time women sometimes need.”
How much time did feminist give? I never systematically studied feminism or followed their movements, just picking up ideas here and there. I dislike those masculine looking women or the belief that women can be equal to men in every field, or women superior than men….
“I guess I dealt with my cptsd differently. Too much familiarity … and the guy feels like a friend. And with a couple of exceptions, I’ve never been attracted to my guy friends.”
The same here. I could not glimmer at any of my guy friends, no matter how they have tried to change or “woo” me.
“Did that stop her from slapping you again?”
Yes, one five-year-resentment-accumulated slap back, and a family meeting with Dad as a mediator, STOPed her physical abuse for good, but not mental or emotional one, which continued until I “flee” out of the country.
“My father is the same way. He’ll never admit anything. He blames other people or even me for his parental choices. There’s no accountability.”
Sound a bit like my Mom, blaming others for her own deep insecurity and whatever pains she was suffering, and just refused to admit her wrongdoings while criticizing the rest of the world like an ultimate “judge”…. I can’t tell you enough how much I hate a “professional” Narc!
@Marcia,
From free BBC news: Matthew Perry obituary: Friends brought fame but couldn’t quell personal demons https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-67253920
“While on screen he was making millions laugh on TV’s biggest show, Matthew Perry was locked in a painful cycle of addiction, and a battle with demons that stemmed from a damaged childhood.“
Happiness!
https://youtu.be/e9dZQelULDk?si=QluL_tvgUvWnw5nW
@Marcia,
I see you have posted something, but can’t find it anywhere.
Marcia,
The powers that be moved the comment.
@Marcia,
“If one knows how to generates and move life-force waves internally, she can surf as long as she wishes, bringing the whole body and mind to the blissful Moon…. All your worldly worries would be gone for the time being, trust me on this. ☺️”
I have no idea what you are talking about.”
Just found this Big Think clip, that I think may answer your question — Get on the train….
https://youtu.be/FqM14Qeozog?si=I_ezMG9eayBjSlCB
6 ways to heal traumas without medications, from the author of “The Body Keep Scores” — Bassel von der Kolk
https://youtu.be/ZoZT8-HqI64?si=05RcD4XSrYKx14Cq
Here are two sequel clips adding more elements to sexual desires (prior to the previous video clip) —
https://youtu.be/eqX38J9ya1I?si=O8ZrAj4J7rZPjE-K — Good Sex explained in 9 minutes — Big Think
https://youtu.be/yi87xlmOjP8?si=cme9bUhVUre0UaCY — How to have better sex — Big Think
Okay, now I want that one! lol
Wife who takes lovers
50
USA
# of marriages: 1 legal, 1 spiritual
# of marriage proposals: 2
length of marriage: 26 years
# PA: 0
# EA: don’t know for sure
# LO: 5 after marriage, several before
Wife
45
USA
Wife
47
Europe
Ladies, would you rather be a wife or a mistress?
Wife
Age : vintage
Country: a few (wandering soul)
# of marriages: 1
Marriage proposals: 5
Length of marriage: 46
# of PAs : 0
# of EAs : 1
# of LO : 1
Nisor,
Did you get or give the marriage proposals?
I proposed to two women. One declined and one accepted.
If I ever go back on the market, I may go for 2 out of 3 to break the tie.
LE, I got the proposals. One fellow proposed the first time we met. I was young and told him : you must be desperate, you don’t know me. He said ‘I know a diamond’ when I see one.’ Still didn’t convince me. Besides the 5 proposals there were other occasions when some fellows would ask a family member or close friend to intercede in their behalf for marriage, as if one was an item. I used to get furious and developed a fear for men for quite awhile. I think I became dismissive avoidant on account of that, the minute someone showed real interest I’d ghost them. But to my SO of forty six years it was I who told him: either we get married now or I’ll take off and never see you again. We were living together for two years. He said ok, whenever you want.
Looking back now, if I were to be given another chance at life I think (not too sure), I would stay a spinster… or live with a lover for as long as it takes and then …??? no , no , thinking it over, it won’t work for me, because I like stability and safety. Definitely I’d get married again! Life has been good to me. Can’t complain.
“Ladies, would you rather be a wife or a mistress?”
This is an off question. Who wants to be a mistress?
Some women do, and enjoy it, like Annie Ernaux, who wins literature Nobel Prize. It seems that there are more mistresses in France as well as male lovers, and some out of wedlock children well cared, no big deal in the society over there.
They take it for granted, expect that a rare, respectable romance (in love) will END soon or later, so they focus on the experience and quality of romance itself, not care about its duration or consequences. As you said, they will enjoy it as long as it lasts, and once it ends, there is no major dramas of any kind — ”you can take a horse to the water but you cannot make him drink.“ If by chance it lasts, they treat it as a bonus of life.
I was invited by the triathlon to move there, but even without knowing my cptsd then, I knew I could not handle this type of short-term culture. The sense of abandonment would bring me a Hell.
I mean, if your goal is intensity of experience (which of course an affair can provide). Sure, I guess, but if it’s is that intense, I think it becomes hard to shut off feelings like a faucet when it’s over.
Too much intensity in doing anything may amount to an addiction, not sure it’s sustainable in a long-term relationship.
I meant in France, it seems there are a lot of short-term EA running before or with PA, not PA alone.
In this model of relationships, women are in a disadvantaged position as they age. Yet, some apparently fight for and enjoy their highly-praised independence, rather than staying in a lousy or “died” relationship.
I tend to agree with Snow on this one.
On some level, all relationships are transactional.
IMO, it depends on what need on Maslow’s hierarchy, the relationship meets. That need could be very different for each partner.
Idk. I have long thought of moving to France. In all seriousness. Older women are revered in France.
And you were talking about being a mistress, which implies intensity. An affair is intense. I wasn’t talking about a long term relationship, which really can’t be intense.
Marcia,
If you think that might make you happy, what’s stopping you from moving to France?
You could be on “Househunters International!”
“Marcia, an [fill in blank] from [fill in blank] is looking to relocate to France. Tired of the dating/social scene in the US and it’s focus on youth, Marcia is looking to move to France and it’s more receptive attitude toward women with depth and experience.” Or, something like that.
I’ve thought about moving to Alsace if my marriage ended. My great-great-grandmother was from Alsace. My daughter thinks I should rent a small flat in Paris and channel my inner Guy de Maupassant.
There were long-term mistresses with sideline children to wealthy or powerful men; they don’t care about their own “titles”in terms of lifestyle, as long as they enjoy their lovers and children. No one else look down upon them, either.
If I were a white European descendant, I might have already moved to France. But they subtly discriminate colored people across board in any field. My HS friends with a PhD all moved out of France and Germany to North America.
But yes, older women are well respected there, my godmother talks like if she were a queen, and complains about the society in large and her chronically depressed husband to no end, but she is very warm hearted and still cares for him deeply.
Guy de Maupassant, master of the ironic ending. What are you thinking, Limerent Emeritus?
Hahaha, Marcia moving to France!
You’re really funny! I’ll tell you, the cultures of the countries at Southern part of Europe are very different from the Northern parts , and very different from USA and Canada. These people are passionate, romantic and could care less of what society standards are there. They follow their hearts. They do respect older women, in general the elderly. So affairs in old ages are common and not snubbed . In some countries, the parents, they can chop your head off if an older man goes out with a younger chick, relatively speaking . So young go with young and older with older. You can also tell by their tv series. But things are slowly changing by the USA influence promoting beauty and youth. French culture has a great influence in some southern European countries.
So, start practicing your French folks…
@Charity Grande,
“Guy de Maupassant, master of the ironic ending. What are you thinking, Limerent Emeritus?”
De Maupassant, Twain, and Vonnegut are my 3 favorite authors but I’m not a character in any Twain or Vonnegut story. Twain and Vonnegut appeal to me intellectually but De Maupassant hits me on a far deeper level. I could be a character or, at least, see myself in most of his stories.
In “Boule de Suif,” I wanted to help her. I wanted to be there for her. It’s the exact same feeling I had for LO #4 when I started to get to know her. The chubby prostitute protagonist is a character in a story but to this day, she’s real to me.
In “After, I’m not exactly M. le Cure, the Abbe Mauduit. He’s the ultimate Dissmissive-Avoidant. I relate to him. “This was really the first being I had passionately loved, because he returned my affection.” That’s LO #2. “I was without passions, without ambitions; I resolved to sacrifice possible joys in order to avoid sure sorrows.” That was me prior to LO #2. She actually cured me of that.
In “Hautot Senior & Hautot Junior,”
“You know well that your mother has been seven years dead,
isn’t that so? and that I am not more than forty-five years myself,
seeing that I got married at nineteen? Is not that true?”
The son faltered:
“Yes, it is true.”
“So then your mother has been seven years dead, and I have remained a widower. Well! a man like me cannot remain without a wife at thirty-eight, isn’t that true?”
So, I kept a young girl at Rouen, Rue d’Eperlan 18, in the third story,
the second door,–I tell you all this, don’t forget,–but a young girl,
who has been very nice to me, loving, devoted, a true woman, eh? You comprehend, my lad?”
“Yes, father.”
“So then, if I am carried off, I owe something to her, something
substantial, that will place her in a safe position. You understand?”
“Yes, father.”
The dying Hautot Senior tasks his son with taking care of his mistress, there was nothing illicit in this relationship. Hautot Junior meets the woman and learns that he has a half-brother. His father and the woman met every Thursday. The woman offers Junior his father’s pipe. Hautot Junior continues the arrangement without blinking an eye. You can’t help but admire that.
In “Bel Ami,” de Maupassant describes a man beating his mistress in such graphic detail that I can only conclude that he saw his father beating his mother. It reminded my of my childhood except that it was my mother attacking my father and the fact that he didn’t kill her was a tribute to his restraint.
De Maupassant moves a lot of levers in me.
LE,
“If you think that might make you happy, what’s stopping you from moving to France?”
I don’t know French and I have no idea what job I could get.
Nisor,
“I’ll tell you, the cultures of the countries at Southern part of Europe are very different from the Northern parts , and very different from USA and Canada. These people are passionate, romantic and could care less of what society standards are there. They follow their hearts.”
So what parts of France would you recommend? I haven’t been to Europe in years.
“They do respect older women, in general the elderly”
Being “respected” wasn’t on the top of my list. 🙂
I definitely like Italy better than Spain.
Italians even openly, respectfully flirt or compliment their grannies in street (I saw it) and ready to help them in any ways. An Italian Mama has a lot power to say to their younglings!
And some young men (stereotyped) like to “serve” accomplished ladies. Just don’t expect a long-term.
But men who marry much younger women expect long term.
We must fight the power.
That means to fight with female’s biology.
No. It means to value in them what they value in us.
“No. It means to value in them what they value in us.“
What exactly you mean?
A lot of men in their 20s and 30s, a few 40s value SE every single day from 15-150 mins, how women at any age (you like ones under 40s) are going to meet that up? Unless they’re subconsciously looking for a substitute Mommy; but then they take younger mistresses behind SO.
Marcia, in France , Paris of course. There’re the Italian lovers, yes the well known great lovers. But don’t forget the Greeks from where the word Eros originate, sexual orgies, homophilia, lesbian, orgasm, and other words having to do with sexuality. Have you heard of Mikonos, a very famous island of Greece known for its love advertising where the rich and famous meet every summer?
And the island of Greek Cyprus, in the near east, where they worship Aphrodite the goddess of love.
The Spanish are great lovers too. They populated a whole continent: South America, Central America and the Caribbean!
Keep on dreaming people! It’s for free!
Snowphoenix,
“What exactly you mean?”
“(you like ones under 40s)”
I really don’t. I was joking. I guess I didn’t make that clear. But if women are valued for their youth and beauty, men should be as well.
Nisor,
“Marcia, in France , Paris of course. ”
What is the cost of living in some of these places?
@Marcia,
”if women are valued for their youth and beauty, men should be as well.“
Absolutely. Look at, touch, and enjoy their youth and beauty (no body curves please!) as much as possible, and shower them with their desired flattery!
When visiting Italy, my eye sight got quite fed well —by proportion, so many youthful, gorgeous faces, even in a tiny town, looked like walking off those classical sculptures or oil paintings in their museums…😋
Give me life experience. A woman whose the lines in her face show me she has experienced more than any girl ever has. Silver hair to show me life that she has lived her life on her own terms. A confident, classy and demure woman. Traits that come with age not youth and beauty.
To quote again (cause I think I posted this in another comment) Charles Bukowski — “You boys can keep your virgins. Give me hot old women in high heels whose a$$e$ forget to get old.”
Adam, your LO is younger. As is every middle aged guy’s on here.
It’s true she was the only exception, and I am still not sure why.
I’m finding that as I age, my tastes are aging as well. 20-somethings are just too young to me–they look like they’re still in high school. I think it’s basically 15 years younger, 15 years older, are in my “range.” My current LO is almost old enough to retire. With movie character crushes, I remember crushing on Frodo when LOTR came out, but then crushing on the much older Bilbo when the Hobbit movies came out. 😉
Adam,
“Something I don’t think even she gets.”
Well …. I don’t mean to pry into your business, but a family member’s husband wants it several times a week. And they’re in their 40s. Been together since high school. They have kids. Both work. I can’t imagine being expected to have that much sex, that far into the relationship, with all those other responsibilities.
Snowphoenix,
“Again, I’ll have to manage living with this pain in some sort of equilibrium; cannot resist or fight with it too much — the Unconscious might strike with opposites to compensate….”
So what is it that you are hurt over ? That he ‘s not avaialble to be an SO? That he doesn’t seem limerent for you?
“I did get furious as if he “betrayed” me — what an illusion, I was never his SO or LO!”
Yeah, same for me. There was so little going on. There was nothingto betray.
Snowphoenix,
“But when EA occurs, one’s mind, heart, and soul will be gone to another person, only his/her physical shell, pretense, or lied are left for the partner or family; s/he won’t be able to have genuine intimacy with them, making them feel internally abandoned. That’s a much hurtful offense!”
Yeah, I totally agree.
It’s that Hall & Oates song … “She’s sitting with you, but her eyes are on the door.”
@Marcia
“So what is it that you are hurt over ? That he ‘s not avaialble to be an SO? That he doesn’t seem limerent for you?“
I kept asking myself this question and could never come up with logical, satisfactory answers.
Unavailable LO with SO rarely bothered me; even if he were available, I am not sure I’d admire someone who likes “to be liked” by all — a Sensor, the character resembled that of my SO who had Asperger. In this regard, I felt like being compelled to “play” a mother’s role to a vulnerable boy. Yet, I was SO “hurt” by the sense of abandonment related to my cPTSD. I feel like being pulled into a double role here — being abandoned and abandoning.
Not limerent for me definitely hurt my pride somewhat, but there is more to it, which I can’t quite pin down. I was rejected by few before and walked away easily. This time, LO also clearly stated there was nothing more between us; (but later asked for an “alternative friendship”) I can tell he absolutely avoids an EA with any women, although he likes chatting/flirts with women of all sorts.
This time it feels different with everything being unspoken or just hinted. I think this is where my limerent brain (— my intuition?) has tricked my mind: my initial glimmer, a few locked gazes, his repeated hoovering (seemingly wounded), his silent, contemplative expressions in person made me FEEL there was something more on his side which he’s not revealing due to his SO — an empath? He sounds like a henpecked husband, really fond of her care, although they had their relationship issues.
I’m pretty much sure that LO and his LO (much younger and smaller than SO — huge as an elephant) is having PA only, because he hinted PA to me in person and in writing, but you know well what we limerents desire! (my own refusal was so incomprehensible to myself before I found LwL)
In theory and as a debater, I talk and hold my convictions firmly; but in reality in the department of emotions, I’m so indecisive. It hurts me more when I unintentionally hurt others, particularly when I see vulnerabilities or “kids” in them and myself; I was so familiar with the feelings of a traumatized and hurt kid. I think that’s why I failed LC/NC again and again.
Just answering your questions brings me more logic, clarifying my limerent thinking and other illusions, indirectly affecting my rebellious Unconscious. The degree of my LE has been steadily reducing, I have begun sensing the kind of post-LE void you’ve been talking about; it’s a drag.
Serial Limerent,
I cannot find your post anymore😅
But I remember that you said we are in the same boat.
We indeed are since I’m perimenopausal too (not very heavy symptoms yet, but still mood changes, tiredness etc).
There are some issues with SOs ability to have sex which got a bit frustrating for both sides and lead to us viewing sex as a thing that could lead to disappointment or mixed feelings and is therefore often avoided.
He‘s reluctant to really talk about it or tackle the problem.
We still have good sex, only very seldom. And that doesn’t help when i‘m in a LE, I get the physical needs mixed into it.
Yeah, when the needs are mismatched, it sure doesn’t help with resisting LE’s. 😛
The thing is, I had crushes even when everything was well and happy. Maybe they developed into limerence only after, as you call it, the needs were mismatched? Have to think about it.
Snowphoenix,
“I have begun sensing the kind of post-LE void you’ve been talking about; it’s a drag.”
It really is. I wish I could report differently.
Guy de Maupassant wrote a great short story about the French and their attitude toward having a mistress.
“Hautot Senior and Hautot Junior”
https://www.online-literature.com/maupassant/2943/
“The irony in Hautot Senior and Hautot Junior is seen best at the end where Hautot Junior did not only inherit his father’s inheritance but his father’s mistress as well.” – https://repository.ukwms.ac.id/id/eprint/462/
Romance seems to be worshiped (stereotype) in France throughout history… anything goes between anyone as long as it’s not child-abuse or incestual related.
Check the true story of Carla Bruin, the current wife of the former French president Nicolas Sarkozy, before whom, she dated a father and married his son (philosophy professor) and had a son together…. Later, she sat with British Queen and gave has a daughter with Sarkozy.
Talking about modern French romance and French ladies… 😋
My French Godmother said, “we French mothers educate our sons well. They know how to fairly respect women’s wishes and needs, and complement their womanhood.” It’s said that stereotypically, French men are womanized, very sissy compared to typical macho men.
In 2000 film, “Sade”, there is scene that a husband is timidly waiting outside of his own bedroom. While asked why, he answered, “My wife is making love to his lover.” — it seems to be a “crime” to disturb a love-making session even if it’s a man’s wife’s with someone else.
“While asked why, he answered, “My wife is making love to his lover.” — it seems to be a “crime” to disturb a love-making session even if it’s a man’s wife’s with someone else.”
Some men have a far different view of being cuckolded, even in France.
“In some countries, notably France, crime passionnel (or crime of passion) was a valid defense to murder charges. During the 19th century, some such cases resulted in a custodial sentence for the murderer of two years. After the Napoleonic code was updated in the 1970s, paternal authority over the members of the family was ended, thus reducing the occasions for which crime passionnel could be claimed.” – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_of_passion
A dark version of this is:
“Blood Red and Goin’ Down” – Tanya Tucker (1973)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhuTb6lK_iA
For a view from the other side, check out
“Frankie And Johnny” – Elvis Presley (1966)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTBlGkG9eZ4
The Johnny Cash version is pretty good.
A French movie likes portraying its own culture to an extreme.
But in general in proportion, men and women get involved in lovers and mistresses more than other cultures, despite whatever laws state.
“Hautot Senior and Hautot Junior” is very humanistic, touching to me.
I heard in Tibet, women are well respected and even “worshiped”; brothers or friends often share one woman, when she is married with one of them. No jealousy crap.
Snow,
I don’t recall what country it was, I read that part of the hospitality was having the guest (if a male) to sleep with the wife!
( most women, I suppose, wouldn’t mind if he’s attractive?)
What a charitable, heroic husband! Which country is it? In one brand of Buddhism, women are revered or worshiped as “goddess”, they recharge and empower men’s spirit.
I found the strong sense of possessiveness mostly annoying and very unwise. No one can own another human being, even not one’s children who have their own body, mind, and soul!
“Desire makes everything blossom; possessions makes everything wither and fade”. — Marcel Proust
I got instant depression after getting a BA degree from an Ivey League college, before I took off my graduation gown in the commencement afternoon; and my MA ring began losing its shine a week after the commencement. But in between, I would not allow any grade to go under B+. The process was always fulfilling and recharging!
I don’t think I’d want to be “offered.” 😛
I skip in and out of this site but cannot keep up with the posts and where a certain subject is discussed, so I just write here on coffeehouse about something that kept me thinking in the posts on Case study. I think Marcia and Lovisa were touching on the subject of age and feeling attractive.
I‘m 47 and get/got regularly complimented on looking much younger, and had until recently the feeling of attracting attention of men as young as in their 20s. This is by no means to be vain, it‘s a fact that makes it harder for me to see myself finally aging.
I mean, of course aging took place all the time. But now I start to realize it big way- I see photos of myself now and am startled, I see that when I‘m with a bunch of my younger women friends men direct their attention more to them (in terms of male-female -oriented attention, not generally) etc
My last LO (not the current friend) was 15 years younger but he was quite surely limerent for me and I still feel a connection with him that doesn’t have to do anything with age.
But through him (he left work as seem to do all my LOs;)) I got this bunch of younger friends, and while we were almost equal the last years, this year I start to feel the difference. And I don’t know if I‘m pulling back more or if they are also.
I mean I was subconsciously dealing with aging for the last years and I wonder how much that created limerence. A last chance at getting the glimmer, at young romance? Also hormonal preparation (a last hooray, so to say), hormones going wild before changing?
What do you say, fellow limerents around 40 and 50?
Also, it seems to help at least with my current LE, I‘m like „cut the nonsense, you are too old for that, you should be good with what you‘ve got“ and not wanting to be an old hag who thinks she‘s still attractive to her LO but everybody else pities her🙈
@Mila
You could be me, so many of the same issues. Ard the same age. (Seem to be quite a few women in that age group here.) Last LO same age difference – also feels like special connection, currently friends. Also told look young. Guys in 20s interested (still). Wondering if I am crazy or like you wondering if LE is last hurrah and this is unconscious reaction to aging.
The only diff that you did not mention: a husband and children who are leaving the nest. Empty nester syndrome?
Husband is there alright, but children don’t leave the nest yet, but that might surely leave a space for intrusive limerence…
When I think of it, all my 3 LOs were younger, 1. 6 years, 2. 15 years, 3. 5 years. Even my husband is 1 year younger.
Suddenly feel like a cougar-like evil woman.
But actually they didn’t feel that much younger. Especially my current LO is an old soul somehow.
Mila
In my early 20’s when I finally started looking for someone I had my eye on this widow at church. She was easily late 40’s or early 50’s. Very classy and demure. With an impeccable sense of fashion. Always well dressed and put together. Her age didn’t matter. Everything else about her was irresistible. She lived rent free in my mind and heart for a long time because I never had the courage to approach her. Age means little to some young men. It’s all about the maturity that older women have that girls don’t.
As Charles Bukowski said “You boys can keep your virgins. Give me hot old women in high heels with a$$e$ that forget to get old.”
Adam,
Maybe there‘s some truth in it, I think at least a part of it is only in our minds, being aware of aging. I also had the impression that I mind much more than the men.
Also, I can tell you that it works the other way round, too- I can enjoy the sight of some young well-built man, but if he‘s too young and immature my interest goes no further. Men with experience, confidence and sense of humour are much more interesting.
Still, young men might size our asses up and find them attractive;) but the real interest would be in young, eligible women. Which is absolutely normal and fine.
Mila
I think in my case a large part of the infatuation and sexual attraction had to with the taboo part of being with a woman with that age difference. The unattainable woman. And in hindsight the start of my mommy issues when it comes to women. And why even at my age now I still find more attraction to women older than me. I guess still looking for the elusive woman to mother me.
I don’t think anything could of come with it. But then again it was largely about the sexual attraction and fantasies I played out with her in my head.
“Also, I can tell you that it works the other way round, too- I can enjoy the sight of some young well-built man, but if he‘s too young and immature my interest goes no further.”
This is about how I feel about younger women. LO was the only exception to that. But for the most part I can appreciate young women’s beauty but have no further interest. I like the stability of a mature woman over the intensity of younger women.
Adam,
I also slowly start to generally appreciate older friends more than my younger friends, in terms of stability and world-wisdom. Conversations are better, connection feels deeper.
I cannot say that I find younger women more intense (as you wrote). I have a few young friends who are beautiful and lively, but not intense. They are for me a bit like puppies, they are lacking a certain layer.
On the other hand, some of my older colleagues seem hardened in their way and there‘s a sense of disappointment or righteous bitterness about them, then I prefer the young vacuousness.
In the end, it’s all about individual personalities…
Could very well be the case. I strongly suspect that my current LO (and what appears to be a mutual crush at the very least) is a mutual mid-life crisis. We’re both in our 50s, at opposite ends of the decade. I’m still enjoying people telling me I look much younger than I am, and wonder how long that will keep up.
Serial Limerent
You saying that people say you look younger than you are … reminds me of a time in my youth. Back when I was in my early 20’s I worked at a gas station. One night two women came to the checkout both buying alcohol. Unknown to me, it was a mother and daughter. As was company practice (and displayed throughout the store) I had to ID anyone looking under 40 years old. In the end I ended up ID’ing the daughter but not the mother. Needless to say the mother rubbed it in her daughter’s face the whole time after lol Thankfully they were both humorous about the situation. I guess I am not a good judge of age.
Similarly when confronted by LO and my other former female co-worker about their age, I guessed LO younger than she is and my other female co-worker older than she is. But I am guessing that was the limerence talking.
Just wanted to say to everyone how incredibly fortunate I feel to have discovered not only a name for the experience I’ve been enduring for the past 8 months, but a community of such honest and intelligent people who live with or have since moved on from limerence. I read elsewhere in a comment that limerence is usually discovered retroactively once the limerent finally has to accept that the situation they are in is causing them harm, which describes perfectly how it came to me, at 44 years old in fact.
The last 3 days have been revelatory to say the least, in regards to me voraciously reading not only some clinical literature but many real world testimonials that parallel my LE almost perfectly. 44yo male and my LO is a married 33yo female whom I met at work roughy a year ago before I stumbled into a LE with her as it usually happens come to find out. Her marriage had been for 4 years and as far as I understand, continues to be, void of physical intimacy. They have known each other for 11 years and used to have normal physical intimacy until it ended, right around the time they married 4 years ago. The barrier was the marriage. I constantly complimented her beauty and her in general, so she was eager to receive this attention from a man, it made her feel good and it made me feel elated to provide that for her. She mentioned over the months that she was going to separate, it was always going to be next month, in a few weeks, but never happened as divorcing and the termination of a marriage is not a minor event, so the barrier and the expectation just sunk me deeper and deeper into my LE until she was, in many different ways, modulating my emotions so severely that it impacted my professional and personal life in serious ways. The job we were both at, a new manager was hired and essentially pushed her out, forcing her to quit and she was very distraught about this. I was actually quite fine in my position but you can guess how I started to feel about the job when this happened. The manager who I had no real problem with became an arch enemy. I ended up actually quitting a well paying job I liked to prove something to LO, even though there was and still is, no option for us to actually be together. I of course can’t give an exhaustive account of everything that has happened in a comment, but just glossing over this and putting it out there is cathartic.
My “rock bottom” regarding my LE came last Friday when I didn’t hear from her all day; she was innocuously taking a day to herself, and the whole day not hearing a reply sent me into a physical and emotional discomfort that was quite extreme, especially for someone I’m not even with. When I did hear back, she simply said sorry I was busy, to which I replied with several wildly insecure, accusatory, paranoid and delusional texts with which she was rightly not impressed with. Even shortly after I sent them I was like “wtf was that?”. I was so deep into my LE that my rational mind was not only absent, but on another planet it seemed. Expectedly, she pulled back. I spent the day after wallowing in rumination and anxiety ( a quite familiar state of mind for me to be in by this point) before I decided to see what the f was going on, and here I am. Mostly radio silence from her the next few days, as opposed to her usual of calling me twice a day and texting. Yesterday, LO and I talked on the phone and without full disclosure or using the term limerence, I said that the situation we have been in for 8 months isn’t emotionally healthy and that I am stepping back in a major way without going NC. I assume my reluctance to go NC is still my limerant mind trying to hold on to those dopamine hits, but something needed to be said and my rational mind finally came back into the fold enough for me to confront it. Anyway, glad to be here, truly.
Welcome Joseph! You have found your tribe.
It sounds like you are available, but your LO is married. That sure does complicate things. I see why you are hurting. It might be time to ask yourself what you want. If you want out of this situation, we can help you. Dr L has great deprograming resources and our community is awesome! We can support you through this trial.
I was just thinking about something that seems applicable to your situation. I think your LO is triggering your hero instinct. It is a common problem for the men in our community. There’s just nothing more alluring than a beautiful damsel in distress who needs you, right? Dr L has an article about that. Don’t hesitate to read the comments as well.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-and-the-rescue-fantasy/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-for-a-co-worker/
I understand that you no longer work with your LO, but I think the comments section of that second article is worth reading.
I’m so glad you found us!
-Lovisa
Joseph
Miss Lovisa is on point. My limerence was my hero complex to rescue her. Her pos ex cheated on her and that triggered my response. I couldn’t understand how a man could do this to her. He’ll find out how little a deterrent a life sentence is for someone my age if I ever find him. She was my goal. My incentive. The glimmer was sparked by my need to save her.
Miss Lovisa is our angel in this community. She always knows what to say. I wouldn’t be in the recovery I am without her.
I hope you find the support that you need her Joesph
Adam,
Thank you for the reply, hope you are well.
Even though the details of our LE slightly differ in that my LO wasn’t cheated on but was instead not receiving physical/intimate attention from her husband, the hero complex was front and center and our LE’s have many parallels.
I said countless times to her things along the line of “I’m baffled someone wouldn’t want you”, “What the hell is wrong with him, he’s the luckiest man in town”, “You deserve the world, he has no idea what he has right in front of him”, you get the picture. It was my role to step in and make her feel how she “deserved to feel”, restore her self worth and image, and be the man she has been waiting for while also making claims like “women like you don’t come around often if ever”, and “I’d spoil you to no end if I had you”. I was definitely in deep.
The glimmer was sparked by my need to give her the attention she wasn’t receiving, and she was absolutely my goal and incentive. Every decision I was making in my life both personally and professionally had to fully involve her and the prospect of us being together. It really was a “black hole of attraction” as Dr L aptly says in another article.
I am glad you have found recovery, it is inspiring to know others have been able to move on from their LE and realise a different life. Thanks again.
-Joseph
Joesph
I said quite similar things to LO. I wanted to build up her self esteem about how her ex betrayed her. I would go out of my way so I’d hope she’d feel better about herself. I couldn’t fathom how a man could do that to her. To me she was the nicest, kindest woman I ever met. A loving mother. A hard working employee. A all around determined and strong willed woman. So yes I get the rescue complex. I even met her daughter. She let me into her world and that just was gasoline on the fire. I get where your are coming from Joesph. Now I’m going to log off because I’m drunk and it took me too long to type this post. I can’t even type good on my phone sober. But please don’t tell Miss Lovisa. I told her I’d stop drunk posting. :-/
Lovisa,
Thank you very much for the reply and the warm welcome into a community of like minded people who truly understand how much of a living hell that a deep, deluded LE can be.
You are correct, I’m single and my LO is married, and the hero instinct/fantasy was the main storyline in my LE. I have been pouring over the incredible resources available from Dr L and everyone’s comments(including the rescue fantasy article you linked, thank you), and it has been quite a relief, even though I know I have serious work to do in order to deprogram myself.
Thanks again and I’ll surely be active and involved in the community, as I’ve just begun to really sink my teeth into this phenomenon and it’s effects on me. Take care.
-Joseph
Hello Joseph.. Coming on here late tonight (or super early for some) but just wanted to say hello and welcome. You’ve definitely found a good community here to share what you are going through. So much good reading in the articles and blogs.
Our LEs are quite different but nonetheless involve a former female co worker. So I totally understand what you mean by dopamine and wallowing in rumination and anxiety.
Take it all in. There is a lot of ground to cover here. Hope to see you around some more in the forum
MJ,
Thank you for the reply and the welcome. I agree this seems like the best possible community to share experiences and to work on moving past the pitfalls and triggers of falling into an LE.
The rumination was/is honestly the worst part of it in my experience. Involuntarily checking/reading over past texts, rehearsing and rehashing phone conversations, obsessing over even the smallest reciprocation from her and her intention behind it, in order get that sweet dopamine hit followed by the inevitable crash if I didn’t hear from her. This type of mental prison is what took up almost the entirety of my headspace every day for months.
I am certainly taking it all in and yes, lots of ground to cover which I am eager to do. I will be around and thanks again for the reply.
-Joseph
Snow,
You can find it in internet:
African Folder Travel- “ Himba Tribe : the African tribe that offers wives to guests.”
Is in northern Namibia, Africa
They’re are known for their polyamorous practices, marriage arrangement and the nature of hospitality practices towards guests…
( discrimination- a woman guest? I don’t think she guests the same privileges as men do)
Not visiting…
Nope. I won’t visit there either.
I’ll visit Tibet, though, to be a “goddess “for the time being! 🧘♀️
Marcia hi.
You asked the cost of living in France/Europe. Europe is very expensive, specially if you live in the capitals where the opportunity for work is better. So far, Portugal is one of the cheapest I believe ; and is safe also.Many Americans now moving there and driving the housing cost to the max. They speak Portuguese . Also Cyprus is safe /low crime, and have beautiful beaches, they speak Greek. Many English ,Russians and other nationalities living there. It’s a small quiet island in the Mediterranean. Spain and Greece are not so expensive either, that is if you bring American dollars…Paris, London, Berlin, Frankfurt , though expensive to live there, everyone wants to be where the action is … also Italy and Holland, Luxemburgo , Belgium are quite expensive. There are the new European countries which joined the Union that are real cheap like Bulgaria, Rumania, Croatia etc. If one is young and adventurous, of course, you can make the leap and move around as you please.
Bon voyage!
Nisor,
Thank you for the information.
I think any major city will be expensive. And then I’d have to research the culture. Are older women highly sexualized, because that’s what I’d be looking for. 🙂
In terms of France, you can just look at the major French actresses — Catherine DeNeuve, Jean Moreau, for example — who were still getting major roles in big fims well into older age. With less expectation that they defy all aging .
Isabelle Huppert, Juliette Binoche — my favorite two.
I love Juliette Binoche. Have you ever seen the movie “Damage”? She’s perfect for the part. (I read the book.) She’s enigmatic and mysterious but still sexy. An American actress would have played the part with a very obvious, in- your-face sexuality. But Binoche is too sophisticated to do that.
I have watched literally every movie she played and own a copy of “Damage”. Binoche is the only woman in the whole world I’d consider for a lesbian experience… although I’m 0% lesbian.
Anytime, I feel blue, I’d watch her movies or video clips.
My two top male actors are British.
Clip of the Day: https://safr.kingfeatures.com/content.php?file=L2hvbWUvdmhvc3Qva2ZzL3NhZnIyLmtpbmdmZWF0dXJlcy5jb20vY2FjaGUvRHVzdGluLzIwMjMvMTAvRHVzdGluLjIwMjMxMDI2XzUyNS5naWY=
I’ve never read Proust.
Limerent Emritus,
Yes. I used to listen to audio Proust to get back to sleep, each time it worked. There was no plots in 7 volumes; one can chew a couple of pages in each reading during the waking hours.
However, I still “study” Proust’s wise quotes, read and listened to this book three times — How Proust Can Change Your Life (by Alain de Botton):
https://youtu.be/PoDNxLU3RDk?si=iIzUJVVx6eILZBPN
I saw this comic last night and thought of you guys: https://comicskingdom.com/dustin/2023-10-26
Serial Limerent,
That’ what Limerent Emeritus already posted above my message. To majority of Americans and perhaps of the rest world, Proust’s work is the cheapest sleeping bills, I used it, too during my rare insomnia.
But I was/am never a part of majority in both East and West; I rarely follow mainstream in any matter (some sciences and my work are exceptional) or care about social gossips; just going about my small, ordinary life — alone more than being with “wrong” companies and wish each day could have 48 hours.
When I felt depressed, Proust’s words could work as a written antidepressant — making me to appreciate more of life and what I already obtained and cognitive distancing my existential pains and limerence sufferings….
I only wish I could ever have 1% of Proust’s observant, creative, and sage-like mind and effectively express it in English as my 2nd tongue.
Oh, sorry, I didn’t click on the other link. *blush*
It‘s long ago that I read Proust, but I don’t remember it as tedious or sleep-inducing. Not an easy read for some, perhaps, but certainly interesting
MiLa,
Because you’re not a typical or “authentic” American…. 😎
Stereotypically, Americans (some British as well) and French are “at throat” with each other culturally…. I’m just a fascinated bystander hearing and learning from both sides 😜
Limerent Emeritus,
“In reality, every reader, while he is reading, is the reader of his own self. The writer’s work is merely a kind of optical instru-ment, which he offers to the reader to permit him to discern what, without the book, he would perhaps never have seen in himself. The reader’s recognition in his own self of what the book says is the proof of its truth.”
-Marcel Proust, Le temps retrouvé
When you read Guy de Maupassant, you see yourself in several of his characters, that’s actively reading affirm aforementioned Proust quote.
When reading Proust, one encounters a stream of consciousness that can be unique to Proust or universal, to which anyone can relate, and which could evoke one to read, search, dig out, and redefine one’s evolved and evolving Self. It’s a challenging mental labor, which could put one to sleep during insomnia.
“The most exclusive love for any person is always love for something else.” — Marcel Proust
More than 100 years ago, without the term, Proust already knew that limerence —“the most exclusive love” is a “substitute love” for something else, not any person.
I’ll never get tired of reading Proust; because each (re)reading, even just couple of quotes, I found “new eyes” in ME speculating and contemplating the same, “old” uncontrollable reality, “newly discovered” something ignored prior to the (re)reading, and even camp up with my own effective mental, therapeutic “solutions” to some tough issues, such as limerence.
Adding one more link to the topic:
https://youtu.be/XIK0ta-l_Eg?si=qpqpVzw07fsVEqeE — Marcel Proust documentary
Does anyone know where I can find a therapist (or how to find a therapist) that deals with limerence and deep need/want/insecurity from women I’m romantically interested in?
Miss Lovisa
I was cleaning up and doing laundry and I found a version of a Bible I didn’t know we had. So I proceeded to head to Song of Solomon (my most read book growing up) and I couldn’t go right to it. I knew it was around Psalms and Job but couldn’t remember for sure. Shame on me. My mother raised me better. I read the Bible everyday for at least 30 minutes until I left the house at 20. Mother’s rule.
That’s cute, Adam. Please don’t shame yourself. The Christian values that your mom wanted to teach you worked. You are a kind, unselfish man. You care more about other people than yourself. It’s remarkable. Give yourself some grace. But… if you feel curious about the scriptures, dig in! Our ancestors wrote things down because they wanted to help us learn and understand important principles.
Songs of Solomon is your go-to…that’s really funny. I wonder if it was written by a person in limerence.
Miss Lovisa, yes Song of Solomon was one of my favorites. He was very poetic and I often thought in my teens, I wanted to be that eloquent when talking to women. So I read it a lot.
When I was younger, preteens I read the account of the Flood a lot. Angels, giants, animals, a global flood; it was like an action movie in my mind.
In my later teens and into my 20’s before I left home I usually read the gospels. As to whether I still believed in God or Jesus, the gospels had many good principles to speak of and good things to live one’s life by Christian or not.
I had a falling out with the church at 23. Just some time after we got married. I no longer felt that I could trust them as servants of God. It’s a long story I may share sometime. But suffice to say if I ever did come back to Christianity it wouldn’t be there again.
Adam, I’m a little rusty, forgive me. My favorite Bible story was when one of Abraham’s servants went searching for a wife for Isaac. The reason that story stood out to me is because that servant appeared to have a strong sense of loyalty to Abraham. I think it says something about Abraham’s character. There are other parts of that story that I like. The story speaks to me. I hope you find something that speaks to you.
Hi Adam,
“My mother raised me better. I read the Bible everyday for at least 30 minutes until I left the house at 20. Mothers rule.”
That was your first experience in life, that gave you some foundation and character development. They were good foundations . I can see you admire and respect your mom very much. And you should. It seems you deviated from those foundations to a more secular and pagan way of living, and they don’t coincide with your roots. You wanted to explore the world on your own terms and rules, make your own decisions no matter how wrong they might have been… I suppose all of us did the same. At least I did, the difference , at one point I went back to my roots of upbringing as a guidance, to move forward to my new discovered world with freedom of choice, reconciling both. I reconciled the new with the old as a foundation .( I was also brought up in the church) Or else we get a split personality and become unhappy. I didn’t allow anybody to change the roots of my upbringing, it would not be me as a person. Would create conflict within myself. There comes a time in life that you would want to do that, (reconcile the new to the old upbringing). It brings you joy and peace in your heart. Maybe it is the key to your life. Maybe this is what’s missing in your life, going back to your roots???
Have a beautiful, blessed week.
Nisor
Yes I do have a great deal of respect for my mother. While my father tirelessly worked outside the home to provide for us, mother raised both my sister and I. My mother didn’t work outside the home until I was a senior in high school. So I grew up with a strong female authority figure. It has had both good and, let’s say “mysterious” effects on me as an adult.
Perhaps on my own terms I could return to religion. The key to that, in my mind, is that I have to actually believe in God, or Jesus again. If I have no real belief and faith religion isn’t going to do anything for me. And I don’t know that I do. But I do believe that this limerence trail in my mid life is a message that I need to heed. Not sure what the exact message is but I do know that it is a message of caution.
Well Adam, you don’t have to go to the same church you used to go when young if it somehow managed to put distrust in what it represents. “ The Church of God “ is a very good church that ascribes to the right teachings of the Bible. I have gone to many many churches and this one appeals to me as more in tune with what you read, more wisdom from
above. I’m sure there are many others even better but I have no access to them where I live. 💪🏽
How is interlocking fingers with your sleeping wife and feeling her squeeze them so exhilarating? Like I’m not sober and watching one of my favorite movies and my wife’s fingers asleep hold mine.
L.E. I get you saying you want to watch them sleep. She sleeping on the couch after I made me a sandwich. She looks so peaceful. Its a nice feeling knowing she feels that comfortable and safe around me. Maybe I’m a good husband?
I disclosed last night, using Marcia’s advice of asking for a date over text. Got a polite rejection. Am glad I did it because now I won’t be tormented by uncertainty. Am particularly glad I did it in a non-creepy way. Am exhausted. Good night. (It’s 4 PM but it feels like night)
Hi Bridgelover, I feel you. Thanks for sharing, which in doing so hope helps you in some small way to dissipate the pain. As you say the positive action you have taken and the clear unambiguous answer you received gives you certainty at last. I’m sure it hurts. Try not to take the rejection personally. It seems your LO is a lone wolf type. Not now, not today, but soon enough you will move steps forwards and your caring capacity will be appreciated by others .
Sending you a hug.
Good night…. It actually is night where I am this weekend !
Hugs, IMHO.
Bridgelover,
Sorry to hear you got a rejection. How do you feel now?
Thanks, Marcia. I feel somewhat emotionally raw, hurt, vulnerable, and tired. But, mostly I feel relieved. Thank you (and my IRL friends who gave similar advice) for explaining how to disclose in the least awkward possible way for the other person.
Bridgelover,
I’m glad you feel relieved.
You mentioned in another post you were curious about having a relationship with an LO. It’s a hard crash when you actually see the person clearly. That’s been my experience. A harder crash than a non-LO because the non-LO you see more clearly from the start.
@Marcia:
One of the things that gave me the courage to disclose was that I was already starting to see LO a little bit more clearly. The ex I’m still friends with, even though we didn’t work out romantically, I could text him and say “hey meet me at the watering hole after work and we’ll get dinner and catch up” and he would say “sounds good” and we’d hang out and have a fun time. It didn’t take me two weeks, four text reminders, and an ulcer to get him to talk to me like it did with LO. This made me realize that LO is not actually a good friend, which brought my limerence levels down enough to make disclosure and the fear of rejection less terrifying. (I will always think LO has beautiful eyes though…even if there’s no substance underneath!)
Bridgelover,
“It didn’t take me two weeks, four text reminders, and an ulcer to get him to talk to me like it did with LO.”
And if this his how the person is, it won’t get better. This is who they are.
I just don’t have a lot of patience with people who make getting together dififcult. I don’t know if they’re not interested enough, they are flaky, they can’t make a decision, they’re juggling other offers. Whatever it is, it’s too much work.
It should be as easy it is with your ex. “Do you want to get dinner tomorrow?” “Yes.” And they show up. It should be that simple.
I remember in my dating days, still in that age when mothers told you not to chase boys but feminism told you to take charge, I took the chance several times. Got a few strikeouts, but a couple turned into relationships. It was always better knowing and not sitting around wondering if the phone would ring.
Serial Limerent,
I would argue that sometimes you don’t even need to ask. I had an LO who would ask me to do something … and then ask a bunch of other people to go along. After about a year of this (and all this flirting), I got frustrtated and got his number, called him and even picked him up. I hoped by asking and taking charge that we’d actually go on a date. We got to the place we were going … and his friend was waiting for us!
So I never needed to ask him out (which was hard for me. I was very shy at the time).
I wanted to go out with this guy without a chaperone.
So he did everything he’d already done. I had my answer the whole time.
Bridgelover,
Wow, I’m impressed by your courage!
Unfortunately I‘m not sure which is your story, I just remember that you tried to transfer to a non-limerent romantic interest, what happened to that?
Anyway, I think you made a step forward toward clarity, now you have a fact to rely on and to move forward from. You took action and got a result, and that’s something to be proud of.
How do you feel today?
I was limerent for LO for 2 years but due to career stuff was not free to even think about disclosing until this past July. I asked him out for coffee intending to disclose to him then, but it was a nightmare getting him to show up, and when he finally did show up it was such a relief to be able to see and talk to him that I didn’t have the nerve to disclose. We still see each other just often enough in professional and social settings that my feelings were going to be an issue unless I addressed them somehow.
I started hanging out with an ex I still like but don’t really want to get back together with, just as friends (he doesn’t want to get back together with me either but we have a great time hanging out as friends), which is the non-limerent romantic interest I was talking about. This eased the intensity of the limerence but wasn’t making it go away entirely. I really wanted to move on and look into finding a partner, which I couldn’t do if I had even 1% suspicion that LO might be into me. Now I can, and I’m glad about that. If I can actually be with someone, limerence won’t set in.
Bridgelover,
Thank you for the information. I think you did absolutely the right thing now. You had the right instinct and confirmed it by disclosing, congratulations.
@Mila Thank you. Not easy, but necessary.
Does your spouse ever be like “what?” when you’re just staring at them? And then you stammer like a middle schooler starring at his crush. What I wasnt starrinv at you. And look away.
Of course! My SO and I do that kind of stuff to each other all the time. I love it!
Momma caught me starring at her when I was watching Signs. And she looked at me like “what” and I was like “I cant stare at my beautiful wife?” And she looked at me softly. And then I said “Momma dont let the aliens take me”.
That’s funny, Adam.
“To an extent this is just another example of the very human tendency to default to what feels emotionally painless rather than what we know should be done. An issue of discipline.”
One thing I wonder if Dr. L can weigh in with an opinion: why are so many people with limerence in the past (ie. not an active LE) hanging about LwL? Are we still getting a dopamine hit, or is it nostalgia, or something else? I wonder about the neurochemistry of it.
My own experience: when I was in the middle of LE, I was here out of desperation, looking for answers; then there was a period where I poured into writing, it felt cathartic; then there was the back and forthing of getting out of limerence, where I “reported in” to the community – sometimes with progress, other times with setbacks; then there was a period where I was more weighing in on other people’s limerence issues, I felt like a bit of an old hand; then I was using coming to LwL as an “alternative” to reaching out to LO when I was trying for LC; and then there were a few false “ends” where I thought I was over, and wanted to announce it to everyone, but I wasn’t quite over, and that was frustrating and I was reading a lot about what sets people back, etc.; and then when it was over … I don’t come as often, but I find it soothing to come every once in awhile to check in on everyone, read the latest blog post. Coming to LwL feels familiar, comforting, habitual. I’m more engaged with the “purposeful living” stuff than the “in the thick of limerence” stuff, but many of the posters who are still suffering are more into the latter. I’m just fascinated that quite a few of the posters here appear to have been coming for years … and some had LEs waaaay in the past, and yet … we still associate so strongly with this community.
Good question, Old Hand,
I was also thinking about it. I wonder if the rekindling of my current LE that was almost over (at least I thought so) had something to do with visiting this site too often. I thought it‘s better to write on the site than writing to LO etc, but somehow it seems to keep me in the LE mindset.
But maybe it’s not true, it also had something to do with seeing him in person after a long time of only texting etc
Still…
I guess it might have something to do with addiction.
There are laid patterns and ways in our brains that are there forever, even if not used.
(Sorry for the English)
It is a good question, Old Hand. It’s probably a combination of factors.
For me, I have just become fascinated with limerence. Love is such a fundamental aspect of human life, and limerence is such a curious aspect of love, that I just enjoy learning and thinking about it as a way of making sense of the world. It helps that I also find neuroscience intrinsically interesting.
Another factor is paying it forward. I think many of the recovered folks who still check in have appreciated having the site when they needed it in the past, and want to contribute their hard-won experience to people who are going through a bad bout of limerence now.
Third is community. We get to know each other – even if it is behind the “mask” of a pseudonym- and care about each other’s lives.
Finally, it is likely that some people have in a way transferred from limerence fantasies as a mechanism of mood repair, to hanging out in a like minded community as a mechanism of mood repair. When we need to feel better, we seek relief from sources that we’ve learned (subconsciously, often) are comforting. I suspect the LwL banter/discussion is a good alternative to daydreaming about an LO, and becomes a new habit for getting a bit of an emotional uplift.
Or… maybe I’ve written the blog posts in such a diabolically addictive manner that none of you will ever escape… bwah ha ha ha ha! *evil genius laughter*
I fully agree with all that’s been said on Old Hands question.
I love Dr Ls villainous laugh !
I would add that there is a secretive and dare I say it illicit nature of the forum too that appeals to the part of the brain looking for some private distraction or stimulus from dullness or pain. Also what struck me on finding LwL is the intelligence, depth and generosity of the community sharing experiences and learnings, so much so I have commented, which on another forum I would not. And I’m learning so much about things I didn’t even know about – Jung anyone !
For me, right now it’s about engaging here with other like minded people, who I kind of lean on, to help keep me grounded somewhat. Most of the time I’m just sad and depressed over LO, but I can’t deny the warm, fuzzy feelings I get thinking of her or maybe whenever I will get to see her again. I can write about her separately on my own personal time, but it’s nice to come here and banter about stuff now and then, to know I’m not alone. Even though a lot of times it feels like that because I feel so helpless being in the crucible. I could do more to help myself but I don’t and that’s my fault. I’ll know when I’ve had enough.
I think I understand how this all happened and how it all came about but it’s a cross I never expected to bear. At least in this capacity. It’s really so bizarre to me when I think just how unique this LO, this person addiction truly is.. I’m wholly grateful to have discovered this place, because who knows where I would be if I didn’t have this outlet??
I came here to get help for my LE two years ago. I stayed for guidance from the community members and because I wanted to help my fellow limerents. I’m pretty sure that I am finished with limerence, but I don’t want to leave because some of our community members have space in my heart. I guess I remain here because I love the community.
Please don’t ever leave again Miss Lovisa. I missed while you were gone. You’re such and inspiration and pillar to this community. You mean so much to my progress. And many other people too. Fredeico, Sammy, Nisor, MJ, Summer, Limmy, L.E., Speedwagon, Lost In Space … so many helpful people I feel ashamed I can’t remember all their names. And of course my favorite woman that always calls me out on my bs; Marcia. I wouldn’t be where I am if you sugar coated it. This is an amazing community. Thank you all.
Adam, you are so kind! Thank you!
You really have made a lot of progress since we met. Me too! I’m so glad to have found all those awesome people who you named. You made me laugh out loud when you said you need Marcia’s “call outs” instead of just my “sugar coatings.” That’s so funny! Marcia really is good at tough love from the female perspective.
I’m not planning to go anywhere, but I don’t check in here nearly as often as I used to. I’m sorry in advance if I miss something.
There are a few other people I would add to your list. A lot of them actually: C is for Cat, Hf (I think that’s his name, he’s the young Muslim man at University) and Rufio, to name a few.
What an awesome group!
Dr L.
“For me, I have just become fascinated with limerence. Love is such a fundamental aspect of life , that I just enjoy learning and thinking about as a way of making sense of the world.”
That! That’s the way I feel to. I’m fascinated with the discovery of limerence and how it affects all kind of people, and makes me understand people’s inner feelings and to be compassionate for them that I just want to hug them and lend a shoulder where they can vent and cry…. Also it makes me feel deeper what life is all about, it’s love and relationships, without love the world is like a wheel with no oil/grease to grind further. It would be empty, dull, no motivation, etc. Love is this tremendous force that sustains life ! We also ponder how can we contribute to defining love, (such a mystery ) and how to keep it going in a relationship; and how to best help society to study these emotions in the future for a better understanding of the mind, brain relating to love and and how it affects our everyday lives when things go wrong , and how to best help for a healthier society. So much is needed to be done to clearly explain this unique phenomenon, the addiction part of it is very painful, how to make it less painful…
And to top it all off , the doctor writes his blog post in “such a diabolically addictive manner “ to keep us trapped, wanting for more, so we can never escape his claws 🦞 on us!!! (Hahaha)
Have a great day!❤️
I haven’t been on here in ages, but I just wanted to post a bit of an update.
I would say I have recovered from my limerence for both LO #1 and LO #2. LO #1 I hardly think about. I saw her a couple of months ago, and I got the distinct feeling she couldn’t be bothered with me. I was talking to her at an event, but I cut the conversation short and moved on. Even as the four year anniversary of me meeting her approaches, I’m really not thinking of her much (at least not HER per se, but I am thinking about what meeting her meant and what the resultant limerence was telling me about my marriage and my life).
After nearly a year of hardly seeing LO #2, she is back in my life in a big way. She recently had a major health issue and was in hospital for a couple of days for surgery. I am glad she is back, and she is telling me she now realizes who her true friends were, but I know this is only temporary as she is getting bored with our crowd and going to the same places yet again. We kind of picked up where we left off about 15 months ago. I am again sort of her go-to guy in the group. But it won’t last. I know it, and I’m actually alright with that. I still like her and find her attractive, but I really don’t think she would be a good fit for me at all if my marriage were to end. I don’t pine away for her if I don’t see her.
On the other hand, my glimmery friend has went into the background and I don’t see her very often these days. I get the distinct feeling she is jealous of LO #2 (or at least she doesn’t want to “intrude” – when there’s actually nothing going on between us). For the longest time, I thought my glimmery friend was having fun, stroking her own ego and maybe mocking me a bit with her flirting, but I actually think she does like me. She may even have a thing for me (I doubt it’s limerence though). The point is absence makes the heart grow fonder. I have recently realized how much I like this lady too. It is mutual and there is definitely a spark between us. Still, it isn’t limerence and I doubt it ever would become full-on limerence due to the double barriers between us (both of us are married) and the fact we are so different (including her wacky and extreme political beliefs). I miss her, but I don’t feel like I’m in love with her or anything like that (I did feel that way about LO #2).
My marriage and family life is still bad. I still want a divorce, but my wife will do anything in her power to stop that. It is very hard from a financial, emotional and logistical perspective. A friend of mine thinks I should just have an affair with someone and go and shack up with her, but that won’t solve my problems. It would only make things worse. Still, I look at other nice women longingly and wish I could be in a fun, exciting and happy romantic relationship. I’m still living in limbo, but at least I feel like I have managed to tame limerence (for the time being anyway). I don’t think my feelings for my glimmery friend will escalate.
Hi VL.
It seems from what you have shared that as you want a divorce and to avoid the temptation of an affair, have you and your SO discussed the need for couples therapy ? Are you at that point to strive for finding and striving for any solution before you decide no more.
I have only had one LO situation in my life so you know more than me, however, you wrote …..
“I doubt it ever would become full-on limerence due to the double barriers between us (both of us are married) and the fact we are so different”
From my experience and what DrL and LwL community say, this is not necessarily the case. Uncertainty and barriers can actually accelerate limerence ! So be very aware and take care that it could escalate as what happened to me, against a backdrop of increasing barriers my limerence heightened.
Best wishes
That’s right IHMO, limerence is no respecter of any barriers. It just happens without an invitation…
@IMHO and Nisor: I know that barriers can actually drive limerence, but in my case I have never been limerent for a married woman. I’ve met my glimmery friend’s husband. He seems like a nice guy, and I know how devastated he was when his wife cheated on him in the past (not with me). I really don’t think I could do that to another man, and so I have some type of mental barrier that I hope will stop me from becoming fully limerent for this woman. I definitely have a crush on her, I am hugely attracted to her, and I really enjoy her company. I actually miss her when I don’t see her because she is a lot of fun. Let’s face it, there is also that huge ego boost knowing someone likes you back. I don’t think there was any ambiguity in the way she shamelessly flirted with me, and so I never had to seek validation because it was already there. I just chose to tell myself it wasn’t genuine, but it was. For whatever reason, she has a thing for me. It could be as simple as me reminding her of the guy she had an affair with (she told me that), but who knows? We are very different people, and it seems like an unlikely pairing (perhaps it’s just opposites attracting?). But I don’t think it would ever progress to full-blown limerence with her.
LO #1 is ancient history by now and just a nostalgic curiosity, but it’s strange how she and my glimmery friend are good friends (my glimmery friend is also friends with LO #2). It’s such a small world! I knew who my glimmery friend was a year-and-a-half before I ever met her because I saw so many pictures of her with LO #1. I never in my wildest dreams thought I would befriend this woman and that she would end up flirting with me. It seemed for a while like fate was leading me right back to LO #1 (who is now back in my life in a very small way), but I sometimes think it almost feels like it was leading me to my glimmery friend. I struggle to make sense of it all.
I still have some feelings for LO #2. I was really worried about her recent health scare. I still like her and find her attractive, but I am out of the limerent stage with her. I don’t think I will ever go back there with her. Last year, I felt like I was in love with her, but I don’t feel that anymore.
My wife and I have talked about counselling for years, but I really want out of the marriage. She will do anything to stay in it. I am going to try counselling, but the problem there is we would want totally different things out of it. She would want to use it as a way to try to save the marriage, but I would want to use it to facilitate an amicable split. We have been living like roommates for about six years now. I have lost all interest in anything romantic with her, and she is bossy, controlling, negative, angry and downright abusive not only with me, but also with our daughter. I’ve told her maybe 200 times I want a divorce, but she will not see that our marriage is dead. Maybe a good counsellor could get her to see that? The problem is I care about her and I still love her in some ways. I want the best for her, and in many ways I feel the best isn’t me. Just like she is not a god fit for me, I’m not a good fit for her. It’s as if her attitude with me is, “I love you. Don’t ever leave me. But if you do, I will totally f**k you up and destroy you.” Maybe counselling can help? I don’t know. My morals may not be 100% solid, but I still maintain that unless and until we go our separate ways, I will not physically cheat on her. Still, I think that in a really troubled marriage where one party has intimated to the other numerous times that they want out, the barriers of acceptable conduct shift slightly. I may be check off some of the boxes of an “emotional affair” with some of my female friends, but I will not sleep with another woman while I am still married. Still, my patience wears thin, and I do have a “wandering eye” that makes it difficult not to let this get to me. Life is too short to waste it being miserable.
Hi VL, you seem to be very self aware, with self control on your feelings of your situation and potential pitfalls and where the lines are to not cross, which is admirable. I guess you need to keep pushing you and your SO forwards to take actions to ensure you don’t end up in limbo misery land. It seems you have a clear view of the path which is good as many on LwL struggle with knowing what to do next ( so we carry on as before) ….me included.
From what you say a counsellor seems the next integral step of action to shift on from being miserable. As you say life is too short. Keep pushing for making
that step change! Maybe the final outcome will be more surprising than you imagine.
Vicarious Limerence hi,
You’re at this stage, I suppose, where you have total control over your limerence :
“Sometimes you let go of people without even noticing. You stop thinking of them every day. You stop wanting for them to reply to you. You stop allowing them to take so much space in your life. You move on, you go about your day without worrying about them. You stop expecting them to come back with an apology. You accept they’re no longer part of your life. You just LET THEM GO, simple as that.”
Simple? Not really, but try you must! Either you kill limerence or it kills you…
Have a great weekend. Thank you for posting.
Limerence for me always dies out slowly like a campfire that needs more wood. I’m still dealing with the smoldering embers of the limerence for LO #2 (LO #1 is a different story, although I do sometimes think of her from a nostalgic or curious perspective in a legitimate attempt at sense making). I wouldn’t say I am limerent for her anymore. This feels like freedom in many ways, but there are a couple of things that make living limerence-free harder for me: (1) I struggle to get the motivation I need for self-improvement because I’m not as focused on trying to impress anyone; and (2) I still have this weird reflex where I talk to myself about LO #2 because I’ve been so used to saying her name to myself and thinking about her. I almost feel like slapping myself when I blurt out her name in private. Why do I still do that? I think it might be just a case of an old habit that is hard to break even though the limerence is basically gone.
“I still have this weird reflex where I talk to myself about LO #2 because I’ve been so used to saying her name to myself and thinking about her.”
I am in a real mild wave of LE right now but one weird thing is I constantly see my LOs name in my mind. I’m used to it, it does not distract me much, but it always seems to be there. Weird phenomenon.
@Speedwagon, it is strange for sure. I think it is a result of being so focused on that one person for so long that it still persists as a sort of habit that is difficult to break, even where the rationale for obsessing over the person has gone.
I have this issue going on too, where I am constantly thinking of LOs name. Saying it in my head or thinking of a song with her name in it. Reminders of her are everywhere. If I’m looking at something to buy with a certain color, it usually has to be the color, which reminds me of her name.
VL, MJ, Speedwagon,
Blurting LOs name and speaking to them in your mind, I think is a natural phenomenon for limerents. I do it all the time. I call LOs name out loud when I’m alone home. And softly when going for walks. I think it is we would like so much to say and share so many things with them, and since we can’t in reality, the mind and thoughts find their way out anyhow. It’s a consolation, a way to vent our frustration with LOs lack of communication. It’s so pitiful, we have to resort to these escape mechanisms, but what can we do, it just comes out naturally!
We are learning new behaviors patterns all the time to learn how to deal with the LE. One day, one day we’ll be free!
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