It’s the end of another year, and quite an eventful one for the Dr L household.
Long time readers may have noticed that I tend to get a bit of fire in my belly come New Year, and start outlining lots of exciting and purposeful new plans. I can still feel that enthusiasm simmering in the background, but this year I’m in more reflective mood, having passed the first Christmas after the death of my father.
As it happens, this year my Saturday posting schedule falls in that weird hinterland between Christmas and New Year, where lazy days feel justified, and the cold, wet weather makes the outer world easy to forgo.
Yuletide in England can be dreary.
So, I’m just going to sit here sipping coffee, rambling into the keyboard, and enjoying the long pause before the new year begins and purpose reignites. I have no great insights to offer, no burning issues to discuss, no fascinating limerence-related discoveries to share. And I’m OK with that.
So, instead I’ll just end this utterly pointless, but strangely cathartic post by wishing everyone in the LwL community a Happy New Year.
May it be full of blessings for us all!
Mila says
Dr L,
enjoy your cosy coffee time!
Isn’t it nice not to do or be something right now. Apart from having to decide on food for the next two days, but that’s a nice kind of stress.
Thanks for everything, your site helped me much this year. Hope not to be so dependent on it next year…
Happy New Year!!
Nisor says
Dr L. hi!
Good to hear you’re taking time off to enjoy yourself and the family. Well deserved rest, I must say, since you have to put up with “all the other children “ of the LwL community, day in day out… You almost birthed us, or rather, “adopted” us as your children, and now we’re clinging to your every word of wisdom and encouragement, admonition and challenges to us. Be proud of yourself and your Blog, it’s very illuminating! It has helped us all and you can confirm it with the witnessing of the posters. You’re special to us!
Now, have your coffee at ease, enjoy your holidays, rest and be merry. Waiting for you next year, it will be awesome for us all! Happy New Year to you, family and all the LwL community.
why says
Aww, look at Dr. L yawning wide and SO looking half-annoyed by her LO not replying to her, as he is busy with his SO too during the holidays, lol! Okay, okay, I jest, and maybe it doesn’t land as well as I thought it should. Plus, I know it’s a stock photo, but what a perfect “picture worth a thousand words”.
Happy holidays and a Happy New Year to you and your family too, Dr. L! Thank you for being the catalyst to my limerence recovery process.
Serial Limerent says
LOL, I found it funny. 🙂
Limerent nurse says
Dear why,
That was hilarious 😂 Thank you!
And Dr. L,
Thanks for your help on this site. Thanks for the chance to talk to other limerents about this issue. Thanks for your hilarious pics and captions and insightful posts.
Jaideux says
As a long time reader… (since the LwL beginning!), I find this pointless and cathartic post most endearing. Periods of dormancy often precede periods of fabulous activity and you deserve to savor every second! I am so thankful for a Limerence free year and with the tools I’ve learned I look forward to the next one.
Snowphoenix says
Dr. L
Happy New Year of 2024!
Thank you for all insightful blogs and looking forward to your new book in 2024!
Bewitched says
Dear Dr L,
Like others have said, that is very endearing.
Hope you have a well earned pause. I find mindless daydreaming helps me have a burst of productivity at a later moment, some unspecified length of time later 🙌💪👍
Also, lightening up is such a genius idea.
I am enjoying the comments as much as the blog today!
Cheers all!
Nisor says
Reflections:
Tomorrow we start a new year, you’re still on time to let this year be closed to those things that are still “pending “.
The past is already gone and the future is not here yet. The only thing we have left is the present. Forgiveness is an important part of the process of “letting go.” When we forgive others we are freeing our hearts of rancor and resentment.
When we let go, we can: free ourselves of the burden of the past. The past is what it is, and we cannot change it. When we let go we can free ourselves of its weigh and then walk towards the future. To let go and lose yourself is a process that requires time and effort. When we become free of the past, we give ourselves the opportunity to live a more wholesome and happier life.
When we cling to the past it’s difficult to see new opportunities that will present themselves to us. When we let go of the past we can be more open to new possibilities.
To center in the present will help us to let go of the past and be focused on what we can do on the now. It’s a moment to start anew, to create new opportunities and reach our dreams.
Therefore, do not worry, trust God, setting your eyes on Him at every moment and let go of whatever you have to let go.
Be grateful for all you are and have. Being grateful is a good step to move on in your life s journey . Being grateful is a nice place to be!!!
Happy New Year! 🥂🎊 cheers 🍻!
Sammy says
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, Dr. L! May the new year be full of blessings for you and yours.
It always amuses me how limerents can make almost anything sound poetic: “in that weird hinterland between…” I guess it’s just a gift. 😉
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
I’ll respond to your binary/spectrum post here in the winter coffeehouse, because I suspect my response is going to be a bit long-winded and tangential…
“Limerence to me is an intense longing (exist in limerents)— an understandable human nature, dormant before encountering a LO. It could be the biological desire for pair-bonding, or a childhood unmet need to be met, or for some fetish fantasies to be actualized… Somehow with that mysterious glimmer, limerents automatically feel or believe LO could possible meet their romantic or particular needs, with little or insufficient knowledge who LO actually is, particularly his or her inside.”
Love all your ideas. You really know your stuff. I think you have a clearer idea on a purely instinctive level of what limerence is than most native English speakers.
I think I have only been genuinely limerent for one person in my life – a male classmate the same age as me. He’s the only person for whom I had symptoms that included (a) a very noticeable racing heart, and (b) involuntary trembling in his physical presence that was alarming to me and my peers. (He didn’t notice I was trembling in his presence, but other classmates did). He “crept” into my brain without my conscious awareness (although I always thought he was very impressive) and I think he triggered mood swings in me from puberty onwards.
This young man and I didn’t have a lot to do with each other. He was kind to me once, twice, maybe a handful of times. But he was neutral/detached most of the time: an emotional enigma, a blank canvas onto which I could project fantasies.
When I was 14, he sat in the back of my music class and didn’t interact much with the rest of us. He was a free spirit, had a quirky sense of humour. I tried to get close to him in subsequent years, because he kept popping up in all my classes, and sometimes he would make playful (usually sarcastic) comments to me, but the connection never seemed to deepen. He was always just out of reach i.e. on a pedestal. Unlike most of my peers, he didn’t seem to take religion seriously.
When we were together, there was no sexual tension between us per se. Sexual tension is the wrong term. There was more a feeling of “awe” coming from my side. I think he knew I held him in awe, and I don’t think he wished to step off the pedestal and become human. I think he was happy being worshipped. He had nice eyes. I liked the way he looked at me sometimes. At times, his eyes did seem full of warmth and promise. That was about the extent of our shared intimacy.
At different points in my life, I have been very shy and nervous around certain girls, but I don’t think that in and of itself counts as limerence. I’ve made girls blush and I’ve felt ecstasy when I’ve made girls blush. I have felt a lot of mental pleasure around females and I have given a lot of mental pleasure to females. But obsession never grew out of these exchanges of mental pleasure. The flirting felt natural and friendly (on both sides) rather than erotically-charged.
I have experienced feelings of euphoria while interacting with any number of male peers. But this euphoria wasn’t accompanied by racing heart or involuntary trembling. Does this mean the hope/uncertainty ratio was skewed in such a way that obsession never developed? Or does this mean that my brain was already securely locked on one LO, and so other candidates needn’t apply? There was a lot of mental pleasure (at least for me) in these interactions with male peers.
So we come to Tennov’s key point that there has to be some break, some rupture, some upset in real/perceived relationship with LO for limerence to reach maximum intensity inside brain of limerent… 🤔
The young man in my music class – he existed very much an idea in my mind. I don’t think I terribly cared for him as a person. I found his tastes and his hobbies boring. But whenever he gave me attention, I felt elated. It was like the whole world around me was electrified. I was also very shy around him and hardly spoke to him. He chased an endless succession of girls, before settling on one. I like to think they’re in mutual limerence with each other. But maybe that’s just one more fantasy too – my perfect man ended up as one half of a perfect couple. 😜
I feel I am at the very end of limerence for this individual now. Yesterday, I finished the last draft of my epic poem, and have no interest in further altering the work. I don’t feel sad. But I do feel quite tired and unmotivated. I suppose the “colour” has gone out of my world. Certainly, my emotions are less intense.
Would I like to fall into limerence again? Well, that is the million-dollar question. A part of me would like to fall into limerence again because I enjoy the boost in energy and the associated creativity. However, another part of me doesn’t wish to fall into limerence again because limerence is such a big investment of time. What percentage of one’s lifespan does one wish to spend down a rabbit hole? 🤔
The funniest thing I did as a result of limerence? I decided I was going to impress my then-LO by becoming a wonderful singer, and I actually took singing lessons for a whole year. I was about 16 at the time. Fortunately, I never sang for my LO. I don’t think my XLO would have appreciated my song choice. He was into hard rock, and I was thinking something more along the lines of Whitney Houston!! (Sickly-sweet power ballad with lots of runs to show off my vocal prowess). 🤣
Snowpheonix says
Sammy,
This music classmate of yours is not the one, who was one of King Arthur’s knights and kindly accompanied you throughout your breakdown, right? Your intense, involuntary emotional reactions towards this boy, sounds very much like what I felt with LO in the early stage of my LE, and I tried sooooo HARD to calm down my helplessly “electrified” neurons in front LO, while almost stuttering…. No such sensations anymore, after seeing, sensing, and dreaming (again last night) about LO’s indifference and even coldness, which in fact helps end this LE; otherwise, I would probably never get out…
“I feel I am at the very end of limerence for this individual now. Yesterday, I finished the last draft of my epic poem, and have no interest in further altering the work. I don’t feel sad. But I do feel quite tired and unmotivated. I suppose the “colour” has gone out of my world. Certainly, my emotions are less intense.”
Your 17 years of recovering from LE is for this 14 year old boy or the very kind knight? I’m confused.
Congratulations on your completion of epic poems! 👏👏 You see, something creative and “positive” came out of your suffering, out of inspirational limerence! At least it has “killed” your sadness and dialed down other intense emotions. A couple of months ago you were lamenting limerence’s all dark effects and fiercely arguing with me about my view on “positive” sides of limerence! What are you going to do with your finish epic poem? Have it published? Share some lines with us here? You know we will be your avid readers!
I think your feeling “tired and unmotivated” is related to a completion of one creation before launching to another one, which may need a new limerence, which would certainly boost your energy and ignite your creativity. But as you have asked in another post: can you fall back/up into the eden of limerence now that you know how the trick is performed?
Without having produced any substantial creative work, I feel burned, blue, and aimless at the end of this die hard limerence; yet the ash of the phoenix has not gone completely black… so no regeneration yet…
Year of Dragon is coming on Feb. 10th…
Snowpheonix says
It’s easier to post here!
Sammy,
Did you binge on honey over the holiday? Where do this many of compliments come from? I feel I’m going to float into a mirage again!
“A curious fact of life – we often help other people when we have the least intention of helping other people, and at such times our helping is probably at its most selfless.”
One is either lucky or strong if he has not been pulled down by my lingering melancholy; I could barely help myself, how possibly anyone else? I only hope I’ve not added some kind of mental or emotional “burden” to those who really care for me in LwL. Your posts are helping make me feel better faster, giving me courage to face coming uncertainty when the college opens on 16th… I know well and distrust my own wobbling mind and vulnerable heart, despite my determined bigs words here or there…
“You have helped me simply by existing as a member of the blog, and by serving as a kind of sounding-board.”
Wow, I’m deeply flattered! I never believed, since I had memory, that my existence meant anything to anyone, even less so nowadays. But I don’t want to give up yet; my father used to say, “why hurry? soon or later, we will all have to get beyond this world, no need to rush….” Also my innate curiosity (not sufficient recently) seems unable to be completely killed; somehow I still want to know and understand more about unknowns.
I might have got a bit genes from my Granny, who never got a university degree or questioned deeply about what life was all about; but always faced the sun, blossomed and fruited like a sunflower, year after year for 104 years, regardless all disasters in her personal life (2 wars, deaths of her 3 children and 1 grandson, etc). She lived everyday as if it was her first day in life — a previous day seemed not have existed…. At age of 80, she began to dance rock-n-roll for her physical workout…. I miss her forever optimistic spirit, so rarely seen anywhere.
“Two traits you have that are incredibly rare in Westerners are: (a) you are not easily offended by other people’s ideas”
In most situations it’s true, but my parents and LO were exceptions; damn it! I was not like this before learning about Stoicism ( summer 2019) and my life-shattering-scary lymphoma episode, during which cockroach even looked cute to me. It may still come back, who knows! I’ve kept up with all my necessary checkups, so far so good.
“you appear to have a genuine curiosity or interest in human emotions, including other people’s emotions. “
That’s a result of reading classical novels too much since young, I simply enjoy stories most. Other people’s inside, heroes or demons, is more interesting than my own (so limited and boring), because they are so rich, dramatic and different! I habitually wonder what’s going on in their head, what makes them laugh or cry, what makes them likable or dislikable.… I often felt like “an alien” curious about earthlings; I wanted to get in, but seemed to be always lingering outside, unable to truly fit in, even the community I was born into — some COO people commented I, a pure breed, had Western blood before I ever stepped outside the country.
“Most Westerners would have given up talking to me a long time ago. Westerners on the whole do not cope very well with anything that’s seems too strange or “out there”.
Nay, I rarely follow any flocks — a lone wolf. I’m fascinated by eccentrics and their uncommon stories — they are enigmatic, colorful, artistic, cultured, lone-wolfs, undefinable and always evolving, shredding old skins like a snake at any given time (not just once a year). No set of rules or codes could quite restrict them yet they’re usually decent, law-obeying citizens (not anarchist), I wish I have more guts and skills to be one….
“I haven’t been exposed to a lot of that non-judgemental energy in life, so it’s nice to come into contact with it. Maybe INFPs have a natural openness toward emotional experience that other personality types typically lack? “
“From my observation, people in the West, particularly “successful” ones, tend to be the way more competitive and want to win, win, and win, even possibly at price of losing kinship, friendship, love, harmony, whatever you name it. Therefore, Judging system of “winning” or “losing” developed (while fate or misfortune factors faded out), modern meritocracy has made it worse. Also, religions and ideologies play a big role in social or ethecal judgments (existed in my COO as well), I dislike it.
I’m not quite into MBTI system, human natures may vary more than 160 types, changing, evolving as one changes and evolves over time and move from one culture to another; I’ve changed internally so much that I feel that I have lived 2 or 3 lives already. My COO and mother are extremely judgmental, which I hated, so later try to reverse it in my own life. Dad is stoically opinionated, but his understanding, tolerance, and forgiveness of wicked human nature was amazing beyond normal beliefs. He has exemplified for my mentality, particularly after his death.
Also, I let those French, Russian, British classical literature occupy most of my lonely, spare time, which, you can imagine, impact on my formative mind and budding personlity is quite hard to quantify and qualify. I often cried for ill-fated characters or social outcasts, faithful but unrequited lovers, heroic souls that forgive crooked human natures — I did get “education” of Christianity from those classics. A young heart seldom judges colorful characters in books, later real people in life… Great literature derives from reality, but also transcends or create reality — which is egg, which is chicken?
So perhaps I’m subconsciously viewing reality as an open, ongoing book, we are all characters in making in this never ending book. Again, one does not judge, but get to know and appreciate all characters and all shades of human characteristics. From aforementioned point of view, we, readers as well writers, continue exploring the elephant from different angles and expressing our understandings… No absolutely right or wrong, but all partial of a WHOLE book…
“When I talk to INFPs, the floodgates open on my emotions!! “
Really? I’m glad and touched to hear. I so like seeing and appreciating emotions in adults, particularly men, who often hide them (I was one of them and still am), as if showing human emotions is some kind of weakness, which I see more as strength, bravery, and cuteness.
“You know, genuine practitioners of Stoicism (in any form) are incredibly rare in Western culture. So when you respond as a practising Stoic to something I say, the effect is very comedic – even hilarious! (Comedic in a deliciously zany way and not comedic in a mean-spirited way). It’s as if you’re uttering words and sentiments that no Western ears have ever heard uttered before!!
😂😂😂 From a new, mentally clumsy student of Stoicism, what else do you expect, Sammy Bro? Also, speaking in ESL tone, everything uttered from my big mouth might sound “comedic”, but it’s at least not cliche! That’s why I fit to scribble original proses or lyrics — no linguistic or cultural hindrances.
“Sometimes, I can’t wait to hear what you’re going to say next… “
As I said before, if you were living close by, I’d drag you to a cafe weekly to dump out all my bizarre English sentences with Stoic flavors. Oh no! forgot my heavy, unbearable accent… 😱. It’s better to stay here inaudibly chatting…. 🙈
“I find that as I talk things over with you, things become clearer in my own mind. You lead me to be less intellectual and more emotional (in a good way – in a way that acknowledges that life has more than one dimension).
The finding is mutual. But I don’t want to shut down anyone’s intellects, just wishing it does not smother or repress one’s rich, colorful emotions, which would make one unhealthy to oneself and boring to others; I’ve seen too many around me, all with Ph.D title, LO included…
“I probably agree with you on more subjects than I care to admit. “
Perhaps, only you would know this. Differences do not alienate me, as long as they are expressed, discussed, and understood. I also learn from others about what I lack or oppose.
“Yeah, you know what, Snowphoenix? You’re actually pretty “cool”. (Not that a Stoic would care about coolness). “
Your imagination seems to have gone wilder; I truly think I’m boring in person like a bookworm, not even a real one, just a dilettante bookworm!— it’s four syllables! I love 4 syllable words, sounding like a rhyme in one word!
The only French word I ca say with confidence is “macaroon”. And when I say “macaroon”, I probably mean “macaron”, because they’re two entirely different cookies apparently. My command of French culture is strictly limited, you see, to what delicacies I can buy at the bakery.
I see, that you’ve binged over “macaroon” and “macaron” over the holiday, so your complimentary posts have almost knocked my “mental teeth” off…. (I liked the latter more) Is that your aim?…. But there is no fire here yet, just incompletely burned ashes…
Snowpheonix says
Sammy Bro,
I think you’ve somehow crept into my head again, this is “frightening”!
“I think when people are in a state of limerence they can find their own company a bit dreary. They can disbelieve any compliment that comes their way. They can doubt the charm of their own conversation, or the enjoyment their company/conversation provides others. By “others”, I mean people who aren’t LO.”
I genuinely think I’m an overly serious, boring company in person, except when other side is interested in what I’m interested — mostly discussions about big life issues, heavily influenced or induced by cptsd. Your views here are accurate in my case, but I’m not sure that’s exclusively related to limerents in a state of limerence, perhaps people with cptsd?
“I think limerents often walk around with a feeling that there’s this huge defect deep inside of them that they have to either hide or fix. This feeling of being intrinsically defective is all part of the delusion of limerence. “
It’s all part of vision/delusion of CPTSD, not limited just to limerence. Crappy Childhood Fairy has talked extensively about this. The abuses from Mother have made almost un-erasable imprint in my system with such a dislution. Knowing it logically does not make it easy to get rid of it.
“Your limerent brain wants you to believe you’re deeply unlovable so you’ll keep chasing those limerent highs. Your limerent brain doesn’t want you to abandon the quest for reward.”
I would replace one word here, “limerent” with “cptsd”. My imagined ideal Phantom would love and accept me as whatever or whoever I was and am.
“The thing is other people in the limerent’s life (other people who are not LO) often don’t view the limerent the way the limerent views himself/herself during lovesickness. Other people may find the limerent – even when the limerent is feeling a bit down – incredibly fun and charming. Lovesick limerents tend to be very poor judges of their own likeability, I think. Lovesick limerents tend to underestimate their attractiveness to other people in general. “
Ah, your macaron lips in a ghost land…. I don’t think I’m so lovesick as aimless. Like you, I’m burned up at the end of this lengthy LE (not nearly as long as yours) and run out my fuel emotionally and physically. I actually begin to sleep more, fatigue is catching me up… I need to go to a warmer place for a longer break.
“Don’t worry about your lengthy posts. If I didn’t want to exchange ideas with you, I wouldn’t have. Usually, I don’t interact with people whose personalities I don’t appreciate. I exchanged ideas with you because I got a lot of pleasure from said exchange of ideas. You haven’t done anything wrong; I don’t find your observations boring.”
I’m least worried about this; we are not obligated chatterers in general, but tend to intensely focus on meaningful matters in life. I’ve got a lot of excitement, inspiration, and pleasure when I found interesting, challenging, and eccentric stuff in your posts to respond to. This tendency is still there even during my melancholy bout, which I am glad.
“If I’m a bit playful at times, that because I enjoy my own playful energy. I don’t always need an LO to get high. Sometimes, I can get high off of my own childlike spirit of silliness.”
I can be very childlike, too, while not blue, when the Phantom was still alive and LOs out of sight… Childlike playfulness is most precious in life, never forsake it! I often felt that way inside, but feared to show externally, in case to be mocked at. People with cptsd are so self-conscious, shy, insecure….
“If anything, my playfulness is intended to help create an atmosphere of camaraderie and inspire relaxation. Perhaps playfulness is the flipside of intensity, and we need a bit of both in our lives to stay balanced?”
Your playfulness made you very human and cute, and me laughing 😂… Yes, playfulness and sincerity would indeed help all of us relax and build up trustful camaraderie in the ship of limerents. My intensity and seriousness surely and badly need to be balanced by humor and playfulness…
“I was worried that maybe I was so busy shining that I wasn’t letting other people shine, and maybe others might want a chance to shine too?”
You’re more considerate than me. LwL is an open space, other people can decide and have chosen whether to read any (ir)relevant, lengthy posts. I have skipped a lot of posts if they are not addressed to me, or their cases are hard for me to relate and respond(e.g I don’t have SO).
“Maybe other people have something great to contribute?”
Everyone has something to contribute, no two people are the same. But everyone’s energy is limited, no one could follow up all posts here and respond. The space is huge, everyone has his and her spot/corner to shine — a gigantic book with multiple ghost characters and ghosts’ ghostly LOs… I scan occasionally to watch real humanities unfold….
“I wasn’t criticising you in any way. I was acknowledging the aggressiveness of my own “inner diva”. Please allow a mostly self-obsessed Westerner the occasional luxury of real and/or feigned Eastern humility!!”
Hmm… you’re over sensitive here, I didn’t feel criticized but a bit concerned as well. Thank you for the explanation, you sound like a HSP now! The shining of your Eastern humility is, is… 😂😂, like that Lancelot in Musical “Camelot” (1967)… 😄😂
“You’re doing a great job, sweetheart. Your comments hit the right notes more often than they hit the wrong notes. Your instincts are fundamentally sound. Keeping shining. Big hugs”
It seems like that I’ve got a big supportive Bro 💃🏻 trying to ignite my half-breathing neurons in the blue ashes…
“The most comprehensive formulation of therapeutic goals is the striving for wholeheartedness: to be without pretense, to be emotionally sincere, to be able to put the whole of oneself into one’s feelings, one’s work, one’s beliefs.” — Karen Horney
It’s 4:15am now, I have an appt. At 9am. Need to 💤
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
Thank you for all your wonderful feedback.
My experience of limerence doesn’t seem to fit the conventional pattern of one LO at a time, so sometimes I wonder whether I’m a limerent at all. 🤔
The boy in the music class seemed to have kicked it all off. He was the least known, the most mysterious, maybe the most attractive, and the one with whom I experienced the full complement of physiological symptoms. He had a face like the sculptures of Pharaoh Akhenaten – such an extraordinary synthesis of masculine strength and feminine beauty. I think I first experienced reduced appetite and sleepless nights over him. And the “flame” he lit never burnt itself out, until I decided to put it out myself.
I couldn’t stay on social media because of this man – not even years later, when we were in our late twenties. The image of his face was just so beautiful, like the photograph of something from a different planet, I couldn’t look at it. If I looked at his face, I started to fall apart. Also, social media platforms can be very cruel. Social media platforms can tell users: “So-and-so wants to be your friend” when in fact it’s only the algorithm which has suggested that person due to mutual contacts. Music Boy = Pan.
Then, while I was in altered state of limerence over Music Boy/Pan, along came another young man, whom I’ll call Sir Galahad/Christ, and he seemed fascinated by me because I was in limerence and (shudders) cranking out reams of high-quality poetry, which most people considered the equivalent of toilet paper. He “love-bombed” me if you like and talked to me about newborn puppies. (I know. I know. Adorable, right? Where do I meet all these charming specimens of heterosexual-but-unorthodox masculinity?)
He always wanted to know what I thought about things – he was intrigued by my mind, or at least pretended to be. There was a lot of physical affection and a lot of written communication – which he happily tolerated for years. His perspiration was like … the smell you encounter in a bakery. He smelt like cookie dough to me. Couldn’t get enough of him. (I’m not sure if women think their boyfriends/husbands smell like baked goods? But my brain associates male sweat with baked goods and/or custard. No, maybe the cinnamon that goes on top of custard? The testosterone in male sweat to me smells like cinnamon, and it’s a very attractive aroma). 😉
At university, I had a fellow in my class, slightly older, very handsome but also overweight and very tall, a gentle giant blessed with a wicked sense of humour. Maybe he’s the “Lucifer” of my fantasies? Marcia would probably like him. He had that bawdy sense of humour, and radiated sexual vitality despite his size. Sometimes he was feminine, but in a hilariously incongruous way. He was girl-crazy and camp at the same time. He gazed deeply into the eyes of every woman he encountered.
His hugs produced ecstasy. He was so big compared to me I felt like I was being wrapped up in a blanket. He’s the one who teased me about bumming cigarettes. He also had a girlfriend, and he joked about how they “crawled all over each on the weekend”. I don’t disbelieve him – he and his girlfriend got married and had four kids in what felt like five years. Their chemistry must have off-the-charts! He always “pushed the envelope”.
Then there was the guy I liked at work because he was the same religious faith as me. He was beautiful in an ethereal way, an angelic redhead. (Ah, the redheads…) Angelic redhead = Potiphar. (Don’t ask me why I chose this nickname. He just seemed very studious and pragmatic I suppose).
Then there was the younger brother of Sir Galahad/Christ, who told me “no hard feelings”. I should probably call him “Sir Launcelot” or “Christ 2.0”. He was very honest, but in a tactful way. And it was his tactful honesty that made me want to go on a huge journey to understand human sexuality – since everybody else seemed to understand something that I wasn’t picking up on…
I hated this guy for his honesty, but I don’t think he ever hated me in return. I think he continued to admire me for my good traits even after our little falling-out. I don’t think he was prone to infatuation. I think I was irked by the fact he was so much more emotionally mature than me, despite being three years my junior. I hated being the person receiving advice instead of the person giving advice.
Long short story, I think my brain kind of shifted back and forth between these four-five guys without really being able to settle on any of them. They all seemed to have a special significance to me and for me. Maybe I should stop hating myself for finding a whole bunch of males attractive?
Then there was the girl who was limerent for me in high school. It’s a bit sad, but when I put myself into her shoes and see the world through her own, I see that her “interpretation” of our “interaction” was/is perfectly reasonable. Given the things I said and the things I did, she had no reason not to think I might be infatuated with her. She wasn’t crazy, in other words. She had grounds for hope. She gazed at me with big puppy-dog eyes, and I was quite happy to be gazed at with big puppy-dog eyes. She just didn’t know I had a small army of other people (mostly male) living in my head at the same time and competing for my limited attention.
Snowpheonix says
Sammy,
Gosh, so many new posts everyday that several are easily missed recently, until I accidentally ran into them by checking something I said in older posts…
Thank you for your more thorough, sequential recounts of your “limerence”, now I’m clear! You’re not only all-singing in other fields of humanity, but all-dancing in head-over-tail spinning limerence with several LO simultaneously! How many brains do you have? Is this a part of Asperger extraordinary talents?
“Maybe I should stop hating myself for finding a whole bunch of males attractive?”
You’re still “hating” yourself for your gender preference/tendency? That would bring you a lot of sufferings! I know it’s almost impossible to alter our gender identity/preference, like I can’t help being highly attracted to highly intellectual, erudite, feminized (emotion-wise), ethereal males, at whom my Unconscious chose to glimmer. (I’m turned off by macho or masculine men no matter how handsome they may subjectively appear in other majority’s eye.)
However, I could logically trace some origins of my Unconscious’ choice, and usually have not regretted such a choice, whether LOs were available or not. I always found something admirable and personally longed for in all non-Narc LOs, which was lacking or deprived in my childhood. I could not help adapt and acquire those deeply-desired traits from my 3 LOs with whom I was truly in limerence with.
Nisor: sorry to say here that I don’t want to get rid of all LO’s influences; no LO or limerent was all black or white, we cant’ blame all our sufferings of limerence on LO’s (aside from Narc LO’s) behaviors, particularly in my cases, it was I who first set off Glimmer on them, before they even knew my existence, and subsequently “chased” them (for reasons) even they were unavailable. If we were aware our limerent characteristics and non-reactive enough, we could have fenced off those Narc LOs and suffered less.
Sammy: I would not know what to do if in your shoe. Have you sort out possible roots of your love/romance preference with highly qualified professionals? Is it genomic designed or unconsciously acquired later on from your familial or social environment? Without knowing an origin of something, we end up in never-ending frustrations and self-hatred — highly unhealthy to ourselves. 😞
On a light note, I love cinnamon smell, but more of gardenia, jasmine, and rose, while unable to stand most of male BO, particularly French men! I happen to have a nose of a half dog and “suffered” tremendously in presence of many males even in a heavily chlorined Olympic pool — had to change to different lanes literally.
French bakery is sooooo addictive to my olfactory and neural system… It is believed that our preference of romance or pair-bonding has something to do subconscious with our nose.
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
“Thank you for your more thorough, sequential recounts of your “limerence”, now I’m clear! You’re not only all-singing in other fields of humanity, but all-dancing in head-over-tail spinning limerence with several LO simultaneously! How many brains do you have? Is this a part of Asperger extraordinary talents?”
Now, now. Let us not be too generous in our praise. I don’t think I can have possibly been in true limerence with all said males, though all were present in my life during a particularly magical/stressful time, so all were a little bit “touched by the light of reflected magic”.
I feel I only had one true LO, and that was Christ/Galahad. I nominate him because I feel he “broke my heart” while the others did not. He’s probably the only one who consumed my thoughts. He’s the only one who seemed to return the feelings – for a while. So there was the right mix of hope/uncertainty. That’s my new working definition of limerence: “The person who broke one’s heart.”
“Sammy: I would not know what to do if in your shoe. Have you sort out possible roots of your love/romance preference with highly qualified professionals? Is it genomic designed or unconsciously acquired later on from your familial or social environment? Without knowing an origin of something, we end up in never-ending frustrations and self-hatred — highly unhealthy to ourselves. 😞”
Your sympathy is sweet. But, honestly, I wouldn’t worry about such things too much. When one is limerent, everything in the world reminds one of one’s LO – be it cupcakes or gardenias. I don’t think cupcakes or gardenias reveal much about a person’s sexual preferences otherwise! 😆
In a perverse way, I rather enjoyed being limerent. I enjoyed going on a huge-though-largely pointless quest to discover what “masculinity” is. But I think the “masculinity” I was trying to activate was the latent masculinity in myself.
I think my mother didn’t really like my male side, so she discouraged me from expressing my male side. I think my male side includes playfulness, creativity, an interest in art and music, games with language, sexual innuendo, all those sorts of things. I think my mother felt that my male qualities were qualities which would take me away from her eventually and she feared losing me.
But the act of suppressing all the joyful and spontaneous qualities in myself in order to appease my mother led to … depression. 🤔
Snowpheonix says
Sammy,
You might appreciate this poem more than I do; I’m always curious about muse of creative souls….
Genius Loci
Sir Geoffrey Hill
i.m. D S C H
I
Music’s poltergeist among the grand spirits,
can you now tell what such possession is
or was
saying: I know the woman who stands here
in Pushkin’s clock-haunted house,
shadowy figure nimbus’d by light’s mode
amid the wan company thinning at dawn.
The air sways, a lamp holds vigil
with its smoky flame.
The fiddle is in velvet, the cello
has ceased to urge her proud commodious song.
II
The cello’s long since ceased to urge her proud
commodious song. It is like a love story
that ends up tragic; or some common débâcle
heroic by decree.
There’s breach of custom that privileges laughter.
In art we hazard so much void of compulsion.
The silence and down-turned thumb are not
compulsion but luck, or the climate, being in the wrong place.
The sublime wearies, so we have farting on brass
like one of Stalin’s jokes. This is a sketched-in
historical thesis. You will call it parody.
III
You will call this parody yet your own music
is like a spectral dance more than a dance of spirits
when it is not
like a wide city under a bronze sky,
when it is not the Neva or a high voicing
of a passion-nocturne by Aleksandr Blok;
the unheard-of threnos brought into hearing
and, once heard, a presentiment from nature
no more to be wondered at
but in the broad way of wonder and acceptance.
Not parody precisely. It is true I think
IV
that I have now confused you with Zhivago
and Pushkin and my own ambition
to write Onegin and fifteen string quartets
and some sparely glittering poem about Christmas
or Easter;
to get the drum-raps right for cracking the spring ice:
more fitful as a human testament
than heart-murmur or tinnitus, or the way one’s jaw
creaks when eating. Finally I declare homage
to the late Frank O’Hara, intelligent, choosy
lover of Russia and of Russian music.
V
Who is this woman who stands here in Pushkin’s
clock-haunted house? I do not know.
I cannot
tell presence from memory amid the wan
company thinning at dawn. She is a muse
of sorts, that much is certain. Her hand
is nimbus’d in a gesture of rebuke
or blessing, and the lamp holds vigil
with its well-trimmed flame.
The house-door stands ajar. The cello has now long
languished from her immemorable aubade.
It comes from: https://poets.org/poem-a-day
Snowpheonix says
Such an unemotional reading — probably by a high-nosed intellectual!
Limerent Emeritus says
Probably my favorite poet was Ogden Nash. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogden_Nash#Other_poems
I think he and I share the same irreverent muse but he spent way more time with it. I’ve always had an irreverent streak in me, a trait that drove one of my sub skippers crazy.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-music/#comment-1538
Snowpheonix says
Limerent Emeritus,
I so like humors in your poem about limerent! It has such a light-hearted twists, making my LE “throes” immediately reduced. To verse so well to lighten driven, “heavy”, idiosyncratic emotions such as limernece, one needs a vast reservoir of English words…
I like many poets of classical and modern times, known or unknown, and their variety of poems, mainly for some relevant contents and words, not styles, or their stirring force/power bestowed on my active or pensive reading…
At college here, I learned and practiced, from the first homework, how to think, feel and write in English, so I “can’t” translate them into my COO tongue with the same, cultural associations and connections; in another word, I have “two” mentality when I speak/write two languages without translating them. I can’t translate my sentimentalities aroused by one language into another one, they always lose original flavors/tones or change meanings, or even get “killed” due to some huge cultural differences.
I don’t know at all how to say “limerence/limerent” in my COO; they don’t exist there yet, although the phenomena has throughout the history, based on its literature.
DrL, if your book is published, I’d love help you translate it into my COO language, putting it known to the East…
Snowpheonix says
Perhaps a grammatical error “or” in my previous post: I meant that I love any type of poetry for their stirring, inspirational force/power bestowed in my often stuck up mind and blue heart…
Mila says
„in another word, I have “two” mentality when I speak/write two languages without translating them.“
Interesting!
Although my language is probably closer to English than yours, I feel a bit of what you mean. It’s somehow another mindset involved. It does help me to translate my feelings into English, although or even because they change slightly somehow.
Cannot explain it.
Is it a stupid or too personal question to ask if your language is more Middle East or Far East?
Don’t answer if you don’t want to tell, it’s on public internet after all, I‘m just idly curious.
Snowpheonix says
Mila,
Either Middle or Far East, the language, culture, some ideologies and spirituality are all VASTly or fundamentally different. It’s extremely difficult for one to organically keep both ethnic identity at the same time; one is compelled to choose which ones to work better in his or her system. At best, one can choose to keep some beneficial cultural traits, philosophical ideas and (psycho)logical thinking from both or more cultures.
Since started reading Western classical literature at an early age (Russian one was influenced by French and Christianity while carrying its own natural distinction), I have adopted more or feel more at ease with the Western mentality, which has its shortcomings from an Eastern angle. Yet, some (other ones are backwards or outdated) wise or “beneficial” Eastern philosophical ideas naturally passed down to us in our up growing; which I want to keep.
Only by conscious comparisons, I could clearly detect in me influences of different and similar mentalities/psyche from both West and East. I often feel that I’ve lived two or three lives already in which the scope of my inner transformation is beyond my conscious mind. Using English dominantly now, I speculate my “past” life more like an “outside” observer, less of an experienced insider… quite surreal sometimes, making me feel woozy.
Another highly, annoying challenge in my LEs was that I’d (sub)consciously choose contradicting or opposite mentality and its consequential actions with two different cultural or philosophical mindset. They “battle” inside me with hundreds of voices day and night (even this morning), making my mind and behaviors “swing” back and forth, which of course was detrimental — rekindling or fanning my hard-to-die limerence. My last 3 LOs are all non-religious Westerners teaching in HE (one speaks some of my COO language), if I behaved based on my Eastern logic, they’d misinterpret or misunderstand my intentions, words and actions. With my underline cptsd and “unknown” limerence, our interactions got more “muddled”, putting me in never-ending self-reflection, questioning, debating, etc.
Over this holiday break, a couple of COO classmates visited me. Their warm care, questions, in COO tongue, of course, about my whereabouts and their assumptions about my simple life, based on our COO and their conforming living styles, made me feel like, “Gosh, I’ve really had two lives, beyond their and my imaginations; I’m truly living in a no-men’s land, belonging to neither West or East, just my own comfortably. 🙂
Snowpheonix says
The Habit of Perfection
Gerard Manley Hopkins
Elected Silence, sing to me
And beat upon my whorlèd ear,
Pipe me to pastures still and be
The music that I care to hear.
Shape nothing, lips; be lovely-dumb:
It is the shut, the curfew sent
From there where all surrenders come
Which only make you eloquent.
Be shellèd, eyes, with double dark
And find the uncreated light:
This ruck and reel which you remark
Coils, keeps, and teases simple sight.
Palate, the hutch of tasty lust,
Desire not to be rinsed with wine:
The can must be so sweet, the crust
So fresh that come in fasts divine!
Nostrils, our careless breath that spend
Upon the stir and keep of pride,
What relish shall the censers send
Along the sanctuary side!
O feel-of-primrose hands, O feet
That want the yield of plushy sward,
But you shall walk the golden street
And you unhouse and house the Lord.
And, Poverty, be thou the bride
And now the marriage feast begun,
And lily-coloured clothes provide
Your spouse not laboured-at nor spun.
******
Buddhism flavored… very opposite of the modern world….
Snowpheonix says
From one Buddhistic point of view: all experiences of human life are Equally important, which reduces extreme, dualistic mentality, brings colorful meanings to every individual life, promotes open space for self-growth and self-fulfillment. In this sense, I do not regret my LE experiences, aside from some specific, unwise behaviors in them.
Sammy:
While in a Buddhistic mindset, one’s not easily offended or praised. True mental clarity, confidence, openness, contentment/fulfillment, and peace are (have to be) germinated from within, NOT others’s words, attitudes, deeds (positive or negative)… in general, not one’s external experiences themselves, but one’s “digestions” (by one’s psychophysiology) of these external experiences.
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
“While in a Buddhistic mindset, one’s not easily offended or praised. True mental clarity, confidence, openness, contentment/fulfillment, and peace are (have to be) germinated from within, NOT others’s words, attitudes, deeds (positive or negative)… in general, not one’s external experiences themselves, but one’s “digestions” (by one’s psychophysiology) of these external experiences.”
According to this description, people who embrace the Buddhistic outlook sound like ideal friends! 😜
I think, in the West, Buddhism is fashionable in some circles, but it is also regarded as a bit woo-woo by mainstream society. Do you know what woo-woo means? “Woo-woo” means “dubiously or outlandishly mystical”. Of course, Westerners may feel that Buddhism is a bit woo-woo because they don’t want to admit that there’s anything of value they could learn from Eastern culture.
Thank you for the two poems. Gerard Manley Hopkins was a Catholic, but his poems do sometimes seem to have an Eastern elegance to them both in terms of ideas and imagery. Sir Geoffrey Hill’s poem doesn’t make much sense to me either. A literal interpretation would be he went to Pushkin’s former house and encountered the ghost of Pushkin’s female muse i.e. Pushkin’s LO.
Snowpheonix says
Sammy,
“According to this description, people who embrace the Buddhistic outlook sound like ideal friends! “
Laymen with Buddhistic mindset and practices, Western or Eastern, are “ideal” friends although they are not flawless. Fortunately, I have a few Buddhistic friends in COO and here. However, they could not and never became my LO (I couldn’t cultivate that glimmer with them) because I think they lack intensity, equivalent to that of limerents, which the latter subconsciously searches for.
“I think, in the West, Buddhism is fashionable in some circles, but it is also regarded as a bit woo-woo by mainstream society.” Do you know what woo-woo means? “Woo-woo” means “dubiously or outlandishly mystical”. “
Yes, I know. As Buddhism courses are becoming more popular in colleges here, it is still less about practicing it, but learning about what it is as one subject of Religious Studies. However, my two colleague-friends, one East Indian origin and one white (the latter was “pursuing me romantically for 2 years, but no glimmer of mine ever came, plus my LO already existed for over 1.5 yrs by then), who teach Buddhism are incorporating Yoga and meditation in their over-enrolled course. Both of them have strong Buddhism outlook, particular openness and serenity/ease on their face, very pleasant and soothing to look at.
“Of course, Westerners may feel that Buddhism is a bit woo-woo because they don’t want to admit that there’s anything of value they could learn from Eastern culture.”
Even if they admit there is value in Buddhism, its practices require one to “forsake” or dial down a lot of Western mentality — chasing (in)tangible “successes”, consumerism, instant gratification, highly competitive, readily judgmental (Dr L is an exception), stubbornly dualistic, accusative of outer world, ignorant of inner Self….
I’ve met those “fashionable” circles of Westerners who practiced a lot of Eastern bodyworks, ie. Yoga, meditation, variety of energy works for whatever exotic reasons, but they didn’t and would not their lifestyle or mentality, so their Buddhistic “outlook” appear awkward or weird, like we ESL folks have acquired English grammar and can use it okay, but unnatural.
Growing up with some Buddhistic tradition, I could not even consider myself a half buddhist. After migrated to the West, I lost a lot of those half-traits. However, I can still set my mind in buddhistic flow if needed, eg. got a rejection of romance….
We discussed before that Stoicism and Buddhism are very similar; the former is more actively involved in life with its concept of virtues; the latter tries to emotionally distance one from all worldly pursuits, which contradicts Camus’ and Sartre’ doctrine which advocates to passionately create meanings in each individual’s life in every single day — begins at sunrise and ends at sundown. Yet, dreams or insomnia, could evoke one with Proustian sentiments from one’s whole past during the Dawn…
Well, uncertainty/possibility of coming Tomorrow is wobbling my knees a little bit now… I am battling with aforementioned 4/5 mindsets — in which one I should deal with LO…. 🥴
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
Thank you once again for your thoughtful feedback – very helpful and greatly appreciated. 🙂
“Laymen with Buddhistic mindset and practices, Western or Eastern, are “ideal” friends although they are not flawless.”
I think someone with a Buddhistic mindset might be an ideal friend in that a limerent could tell this friend about a troubling limerence experience, and the friend with a Buddhistic mindset wouldn’t judge the limerent for their troubling limerence experience. (In this scenario, the limerent is infatuated with a third party, and not the friend who embraces the Buddhistic outlook). I’m thinking of the Buddhistic friend as an ideal confidante for the troubled limerent.
You’re helping me sharpen my thinking on limerence. I’m never quite sure what you mean when you use the word “genomic”. As a native English speaker, I find the word ugly and non-poetic, so I avoid using it. However, this is my interpretation of what you mean:
In a limerent episode:
(1) The Glimmer is instant.
(2) The Glimmer is unconscious.
(3) One’s LO archetype may be encoded in one’s genes i.e. genomic.
In other words, the limerent may have very little conscious say in the type of person they feel attracted to on such a primal level. Limerent love feels like it’s preordained, a product of fate or a product of deeply-embedded and mysterious biological drives, and not an outcome of human will. However, many anthropologists argue that human beings are products of both nature and nurture. So it’s reasonable to assume too that early childhood experiences could have a hand in shaping the final outline of one’s LO archetype.
If all the above is true, then limerence must seem like an awesome and slightly terrifying experience to the person experiencing limerence. If two people are experiencing limerence simultaneously for each other, and this is the first time they’ve both had the experience, the euphoria-producing “love” these two people share must seem fated, foretold in the stars, and all the other cliches of romantic literature. (I do not invoke romantic cliches in order to mock, but rather, to describe what’s going on inside people’s heads and understand the meanings people give their own attractions).
If I apply your thinking to my own life, then I’ve only had one LO, and it would have to be the first guy – “Pan”. In other words, the “hottest” candidate by virtue of being my sole LO was also the candidate who “broke my heart”. He brought both the “sizzle” and the “sorrow”. 🤔
If there was a seamless transition between Love Object #1 and Love Object #2 in my life, that suggests to me that no true transference occurred. True transference would involve a gradual waning of feelings for Love Object #1, until those feelings were at a very low point, and attraction could then be shifted onto Love Object #2. A seamless transition, in other words, in no genuine transition at all.
Probably one of the most embarrassing experiences human beings can have (depending on their level of self-awareness) is assuming that someone is limerent for one when that person is in fact NOT limerent for one. Chasing the wrong person = mortifying. On the other hand, probably one of the most exciting (and gratifying) experiences human beings can have is discovering that one’s LO returns the feelings. 🤔
Snowpheonix says
@Sammy
“I think someone with a Buddhistic mindset might be an ideal friend in that a limerent could tell this friend about a troubling limerence experience, and the friend with a Buddhistic mindset wouldn’t judge the limerent for their troubling limerence experience. “
Yes. Even if this Buddhistic mindset in a laymen is not active 100% of time, but 60% is plenty. When they are 100%, you’d be bored to losing your wits! An ideal confidante needs a Buddhistic mindset, as well as sharp intelligence and erudition.
“I’m never quite sure what you mean when you use the word “genomic”.
It means “instinctual” from one’s DNA level. I adopted it from the book “psycho-systems Analysis. “
“this is my interpretation of what you mean:
In a limerent episode:
(1) The Glimmer is instant. (2) The Glimmer is unconscious. (3) One’s LO archetype may be encoded in one’s genes i.e. genomic.”
In all my LE cases, the glimmer was instant, coming from total unknown or mystery. Glimmering is unconscious as you have insisted that the Unconscious selects our LOs. One’s LO archetype MAYbe, encoded in one’s genes, or our genes engined by our sexual hormones are constantly searching for mysteriously attractive pair-bonding partner.
“In other words, the limerent may have very little conscious say in the type of person they feel attracted to on such a primal level. “
Yep! I would describe that the limerent has little conscious to say where/whom his/her glimmer would land. And no one/God can answer, “why this girl but not that boy”, although our “logical” mind constantly searches for clues and gives superficial counts.
“Limerent love feels like it’s preordained, a product of fate or a product of deeply-embedded and mysterious biological drives, and not an outcome of human will. “
Thus those twin-flame claims! However in my case, I think that my will to treat LO as a surrogate parent eventually landed me in the true limerence’s painful zone (4 years after the Glimmer)
“However, many anthropologists argue that human beings are products of both nature and nurture. So it’s reasonable to assume too that early childhood experiences could have a hand in shaping the final outline of one’s LO archetype.”
Absolutely. Childhood experiences are the most important ones, particularly before their reasoning abilities come to existence. Then LO is still not fully chosen by limerents’ logic.
“If all the above is true, then limerence must seem like an awesome and slightly terrifying experience to the person experiencing limerence. “
That’s how I had felt despite even there was little reciprocation. What’s aroused in my head was much, much, much more exhilarating, inspirational, absolutely euphoric! I did not feel any terrifying, but extremely lucky to be able in that stage — rarely came to me or lasted long.
“If two people are experiencing limerence simultaneously for each other, and this is the first time they’ve both had the experience, the euphoria-producing “love” these two people share must seem fated, foretold in the stars, and all the other cliches of romantic literature. (I do not invoke romantic cliches in order to mock, but rather, to describe what’s going on inside people’s heads and understand the meanings people give their own attractions).”
It does not have to be “the first time”. People can limerent repeatedly despite failures after failures, as long as our hormone are still running silently. I got the experience you just described on my 4th time of limerence — lasted short, since it was reciprocated 95% with a marriage.
“If I apply your thinking to my own life, then I’ve only had one LO, and it would have to be the first guy – “Pan”. In other words, the “hottest” candidate by virtue of being my sole LO was also the candidate who “broke my heart”. He brought both the “sizzle” and the “sorrow”.
I truly have just two LOs, #1 & #7, both platonic. I broke #1’s heart, and #7 broke mine. I don’t know where LO #1 is, alive or dead in COO; but I see LO #7 anytime I wish when he’s around, without skipping any heartbeat or blinking my eyes. Going LC/NC does not work for me — my unlimited imagination and insatiable curiosity would keep the limerence fire kindled… and my buddhistic mindset would soon or later forget and forgive all LO’s wrongdoings… However, demystifying or poking LO’s social mask (everyone has one) will surely dampen down the limerence, unfortunately or fortunately?
“Probably one of the most embarrassing experiences human beings can have (depending on their level of self-awareness) is assuming that someone is limerent for one when that person is in fact NOT limerent for one. Chasing the wrong person = mortifying. “
Indeed, indeed! This is most embarrassing, pitiful experience if one is not Stoic (most people are not). Otherwise, he or she would just sincerely, bravely “love/limerent for wrong person without chasing or expecting, regardless how the world would view them. That’s TRUE power!
“On the other hand, probably one of the most eciting (and gratifying) experiences human beings can have is discovering that one’s LO returns the feelings. “
YES! Then limerence will die soon.
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
We seem to be able to agree on more and more things! 😁
“Yep! I would describe that the limerent has little conscious to say where/whom his/her glimmer would land. And no one/God can answer, “why this girl but not that boy”, although our “logical” mind constantly searches for clues and gives superficial counts.”
This is probably what trips up people the most – the why of it all. Maybe that’s what feeds a lot of the rumination? Why does this person seem special? Why this person and not someone else? And if the feelings associated with The Glimmer are so pleasurablea nd addictve, why not follow those feelings wherever they lead?
Nisor quoted Oscar Wilde the other day: “Each man kills the thing he loves.” What is your take on this quote? (Your take doesn’t need to be the historical one in Oscar Wilde’s poem).
Do you think the quote refers to jealousy? That people ruin romantic relationships through jealousy? Do you think the quote refers to idealisation? That we do our loved ones a disservice by not seeing them for who they really are? Or are there other meanings that to you seem apt? Is it, for example, really a quote about obsession and not a quote about love?
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
Just had a brainwave…
When an LO is “uncomfortable” with a limerent’s energy, (as opposed to a limerent’s questionable behaviour), I think what’s going on is the LO is sensing and responding negatively to the “genomic” or instinctual aspect of limerence.
It can be confusing and/or intimidating (to some people) to find themselves on the receiving end of someone else’s super-focused mating drive – especially if they did not volunteer for that rarest of honours! 😉
I think the above observation is true even if the limerence appears to be platonic. I don’t think it’s misleading to call limerence a “romantic infatuation”. It really is a romantic infatuation, isn’t it, even if the limerent is not interested in sex with LO? 🤔
I’m not sure about Easterners. But Westerners find it hard to divorce sex and romance from each other conceptually, though we do divorce the two all the time in our everyday lives. I.e. some people might assume there’s not romance between two people because there’s no sex, when in fact the romantic feeling may be strong. The assumption Westerners make about sex and romance always going together can make limerence a very tricky concept to grasp.
Adam says
“Each man kills the thing he loves.”
” Or are there other meanings that to you seem apt?”
The absolute fear she would inevitably leave. I was anxious, smothering and perplexing. My anxious attachment was running high. And I have no doubt that even without barriers she would have fled the situation. I was the creator and the destroyer of whatever it was between us. I am, in limerence my own enemy, but in reality my own savior.
Snowpheonix says
Sammy,
I believe I’ve talked about my own magnetic theory and experiences. All objects, animated or non-animated, have magnetic field. Every human being and animal has it, and can only be FELT/SENSED by another sentient being or a lab detector. I category this magnetic energy into 3 types when encountering another human being: strongly attracted or repulsed, neutral/tolerable in the middle.
“When an LO is “uncomfortable” with a limerent’s energy, (as opposed to a limerent’s questionable behaviour), I think what’s going on is the LO is sensing and responding negatively to the “genomic” or instinctual aspect of limerence.”
If it’s beyond neutral threshold in a negative field, then it’s absolutely true in your statement here. As a LO many times over, I helplessly sensed this unwanted energy uncountable times since very young… I might have even developed into a half HSP in my inexpressible, illogical senses. Moreover, without slightly intension or awareness, my eyes even attract stranger dogs, horses, deers (occasionally turned them on), besides men( & some women) across continents, all my LOs included….
“It can be confusing and/or intimidating (to some people) to find themselves on the receiving end of someone else’s super-focused mating drive – especially if they did not volunteer for that rarest of honours!
It can be confusing, intimidating, and even disgusting, particularly when LO did NOT do a thing or felt opposite of attraction. But there are people with whom one can feel very comfortable without being either attracted or repulsed magnetically — those non-limerents, “Buddhists”, “Stoics”, lower-energy… kinds.
“I think the above observation is true even if the limerence appears to be platonic. I don’t think it’s misleading to call limerence a “romantic infatuation”. It really is a romantic infatuation, isn’t it, even if the limerent is not interested in sex with LO? “
Totally agree with you here. “Platonic” is in behaviors, not in instinctual drives that have no moral agendas but their own needs. But I would argue that this “romantic infatuation” is heavily tinged by sexual drivers even if one is unaware them while encountering with LO or daydream about LO.
“I’m not sure about Easterners. But Westerners find it hard to divorce sex and romance from each other conceptually, though we do divorce the two all the time in our everyday lives.”
I grew up with the system that stressed the divorce of two, even demonized the former, like some extreme religious doctrines. It emphasizes and praises purity of the romance (I guess made of bunch of words, music, sight, smell, touch?), but portrayed dirtiness or ugliness of sex especially when a marriage/long term relationship is absent.
“some people might assume there’s not romance between two people because there’s no sex, when in fact the romantic feeling may be strong.”
Romance without sex is possible, but one’s sexual drive is always there, dormant or active, which can be subconsciously stimulated by anothers’ words, scents, sight, sound, etc. I don’t think one could feel romantic while sitting across someone who helplessly radiates strong, offensive BO. (Like one of my loyal “suitors”)
“The assumption Westerners make about sex and romance always going together can make limerence a very tricky concept to grasp.”
Again, I believe Glimmering is directly related to one’s undetectable, instinctual drive, but the consequential LE can be sexless and going strong with limerent’s own imaginations and reveries.
Some in LwL never met their LO in person but online, they fell into limerence for LO’s screen images and talks. It happened twice with me a while ago, but I took trips to meet them across two oceans. My disappointment was beyond your English dictionary….
You see, even two available limerents can’t develop a desired, sustainable love without one’s 5 senses involved and that bloody pair-bonding drive as the off-stage director. Earth-shaking Glimmer can only be set off by a fleshy human being, at least in my existence.
Snowpheonix says
Sammy,
Since humans are products of the nature and culture, I do believe that human magnetic field has elements of personality traits and of their spiritual or ideological conditioning, which one can instantly sense, upon first or second encounter, but unable to tell attraction or repulsion is purely biological or instinctual combined with culture.
Sammy says
@Adam.
“The absolute fear she would inevitably leave. I was anxious, smothering and perplexing. My anxious attachment was running high. And I have no doubt that even without barriers she would have fled the situation. I was the creator and the destroyer of whatever it was between us. I am, in limerence my own enemy, but in reality my own savior.”
That sounds very interesting…
Your fear of abandonment = pushing the other person away, to try and manage your fear of abandonment. Pushing the other person away too many times = the relationship begins to break down. Outcome: one successfully controls one’s overwhelming fear of abandonment, but loses the desired attachment in the process. 🤔
This is a dynamic I’m not completely unfamiliar with. I think limerence itself can bring out this dynamic in people who are otherwise secure. Limerents start to feel a deep ambivalence toward the LO, and this ambivalence keeps the push-pull dynamic going, until one or both parties gets sick of the dance. I think the limerent may be (unconsciously) trying to pressure the LO into disclosure. I.e. “if you want me to stick around, please tell me you’re invested too.”
I think the pain of uncertainty can feel unbearable to the limerent who doesn’t know where they stand with the LO, and the LO won’t offer a firm rejection, perhaps because the LO isn’t fully aware of the limerent’s depths of feeling about the desired relationship. Or the LO has some other valid reason why they can’t show their hand. (Both parties are already married to other people, for example).
Not every limerent would have the self-awareness to see that their anxiety-driven behaviour is fast becoming “smothering” and “perplexing” to LO, and hence unattractive. It’s good you can see yourself from a third-party perspective, and understand how anxiety shapes your own behaviour/responses in relationships.
If you can see how anxiety shapes your own behaviour/responses, then you can ask yourself all the right questions: “Is this how I want to act in my relationships? Do I need to be this (anxious) person? Do I want to be this (anxious) person? Is the anxiety serving me and my loved ones or is the anxiety estranging me from my loved ones?” 😉
Snowpheonix says
I measure every Grief I meet (561)
Emily Dickinson
1830 –1886
I measure every Grief I meet
With narrow, probing, eyes –
I wonder if It weighs like Mine –
Or has an Easier size.
I wonder if They bore it long –
Or did it just begin –
I could not tell the Date of Mine –
It feels so old a pain –
I wonder if it hurts to live –
And if They have to try –
And whether – could They choose between –
It would not be – to die –
I note that Some – gone patient long –
At length, renew their smile –
An imitation of a Light
That has so little Oil –
I wonder if when Years have piled –
Some Thousands – on the Harm –
That hurt them early – such a lapse
Could give them any Balm –
Or would they go on aching still
Through Centuries of Nerve –
Enlightened to a larger Pain –
In Contrast with the Love –
The Grieved – are many – I am told –
There is the various Cause –
Death – is but one – and comes but once –
And only nails the eyes –
There’s Grief of Want – and grief of Cold –
A sort they call “Despair” –
There’s Banishment from native Eyes –
In sight of Native Air –
And though I may not guess the kind –
Correctly – yet to me
A piercing Comfort it affords
In passing Calvary –
To note the fashions – of the Cross –
And how they’re mostly worn –
Still fascinated to presume
That Some – are like my own –
Nisor says
Snow, Mila,
I also have the difficulties you both have because English is not my language of origin. I sometimes think and write as I feel at the moment but the words don’t come out easy for me to express my thoughts as I would like it to be. Make a lot of grammar mistakes but that doesn’t stop me from participating, I beg the audience to bear with me
and be kind. If I learn a word in a particular language I don’t know how to say in another language when writing as my mind flows quickly so I can’t stop the train of thought to look it up. I deal with three languages daily which is tiring and confusing, frustrating.
When it comes to culture, I have not let any culture influence my mind, I was born free and self agency, so I don’t think I would be influenced by other cultures if they have not much to offer when it comes to personal thinking, that is, if I were to stop being me internally. Of course, different cultures enrich my knowledge but my inner me is me: free as a bird! When t comes to the languages, I have made one of my own, going back and forth to words of the three languages when speaking with other foreigners here who go through the same problem. We mix the language, it’s awful, it makes no justice to any language. But I don’t have the knack to easily translate to other languages. I find now I have no command of any language and feel limited.
Once in a taxi with some other foreigners speaking the three languages as me, we were talking this melange disordered”new language “, and the taxi driver asked what language we were talking ( we were using words from the local language as well as other two languages), so I told him: “ you don’t want to know, it’s a mixture of three languages altogether.”, He said , it’s if I could understand some of what you say,”, I said, sure, we are borrowing
words from your language and mixing it with ours”, a cocktail mix.” Ah, ah he said.
Also, I try to pick up from the culture that which I like and dismiss the rest, bear with it if it doesn’t go with my personality. I don’t have to adopt it.
Nisor says
Sammy, Adam
Referring to Oscar Wilde’s quote: “ Each man kills the thing he loves”, of course it means men/women; there’s a wild range of connotations whereby one can “kill the thing one loves”; even betrayal, going No contact,( even though you keep on loving the person) killing the hope of being reciprocated, Acceptance, the impossibility of ever being together, fear of abandonment , jealousy, neglect, overwhelming love, (the lo feels like being choked) resentment, walking away from the loved one, (like me) doubt;
anything that “separates” the love you have for this person whom you love so dearly but have to give it up. It’s also a goodbye by force … The ultimate meaning being : they are forever separated from each other, whether by death or any other means which the person have decided to end the love attachment for different reasons. There’s no ‘corpse’, no funeral, just a deep grief and sorrow that follows with no one to share the mourning…
Just saw this thread today.
Adam says
“Is there someone you know
And youre loving them so
But taking them all for granted
You may loose them one day
Someone takes them away
And they dont hear the words you long to say”
Everything I Own — Bread
https://youtu.be/hlOwOFJJ-RI?si=tLHWPv6kBZ2ows5i
Sammy says
@Nisor.
“I also have … difficulties … because English is not my language of origin. I sometimes think and write as I feel at the moment but the words don’t come out easy for me to express my thoughts as I would like it to be. Make a lot of grammar mistakes but that doesn’t stop me from participating, I beg the audience to bear with me and be kind.”
As a native English speaker, I find I can follow what you say quite well. I think I can always understand (or at least make a very good guess) at your intended meaning, even if the grammar isn’t perfect. I actually think the flow of your words is quite beautiful at times too! (Maybe you’re inventing your own strangely melodic version of English for us all to enjoy?) 😊
The English writer Virginia Woolf wrote a book called “The Waves” and some critics believe this book was a failure because Woolf was after an “incantatory effect” and the English language doesn’t lend itself to an “incantatory effect”. (It is very hard to chant in English for a sustained period of time without sounding silly). However, the French language DOES lend itself to the poetic style Woolf wanted. Had Woolf been able to write in French, she may have fully realised her artistic vision.
“Referring to Oscar Wilde’s quote … of course it means men/women; there’s a wild range of connotations whereby one can “kill the thing one loves”; even betrayal, going No contact, (even though you keep on loving the person) killing the hope of being reciprocated, Acceptance, the impossibility of ever being together, fear of abandonment , jealousy, neglect, overwhelming love, (the lo feels like being choked) resentment, walking away from the loved one, (like me) doubt;
anything that “separates” the love you have for this person whom you love so dearly but have to give it up. It’s also a goodbye by force … The ultimate meaning being: they are forever separated from each other, whether by death or any other means which the person have decided to end the love attachment for different reasons. There’s no ‘corpse’, no funeral, just a deep grief and sorrow that follows with no one to share the mourning…”
I like your interpretation of Wilde’s quote. I think you’ve brought out all the different possible emotional nuances. 🙂
Nisor says
Sammy, Adam
Re: Sammy’reply to Adam
Sammy is so good at interpreting our limerent feelings in our posts, sometimes I think he’s reading our minds! The best psychologist there is, and he’s quick too!
“Your fear of abandonment = pushing the other person away, to try and manage your fear of abandonment.”
“Outcome: one successfully controls one’s overwhelming fear of abandonment, but loses the desired attachment in the process.”
“ Limerents start to feel a deep ambivalence toward the LO.”
For me also, this applies, as I was fearful of being abandoned by LO… there was doubt on my side on the last month of our relationship. He was behaving somewhat a little different with our
dating routine- we’re seeing each other twice a week , and would spend about 20 hours together weekly, but one week it changed and I silently rebelled… The fear, like Adam says, that he’d leave me sooner or later, made me doubt LO’s intentions. I didn’t like the feeling of doubt, I cannot stay in a relationship if there’s doubt… “my anxious attachment was running high”, and I decided to break up the relationship , leak my wounds and move on. My greatest regret is that I never gave him an opportunity to express or explain himself, and for me to get a closure on the relationship . It was cruel of me, awkward and very uncouth. I had no patience and ran away as fast as I could, and never spoke or saw him again, until forty nine years later, of total silence, when I had the dream and called him. Only to lose him
again to NC. He’s got a SO and so do I also. Acceptance has become my mantra… but my limerent brain still holds onto to the beautiful memories…
Song of the blog:
“Memories “, Barbara Streisand sings. ( from the movie: The way we were. It’s a beautiful song, melody.
You stay strong and wise as always, with your humor and great insights. I appreciate you very much, and enjoy reading your posts.
Remember, we will meet with Snow in New York, sometime in the future… even if in our dreams. I lived the best years of my life in New York City . Not quite the same anymore… I miss those years so much. Well, I don’t want to become nostalgic now… good day to you.
Nisor says
Sorry Sammy, Adam
The song Memories is from the Broadway show “ CATS”,
The other song is: The way we were, both have to do with memories anyway. Barbara Streisand sings both.
Mila says
Dear limerents,
I wrote about it before, but now I notice it again:
Whenever I seriously try to quell the limerence, to not write, not ruminate etc, my hand immediately goes to the sweets drawer. Brain tries to swap one addiction for the other, or is looking for consolation.
Is anybody out there who has the same knee-jerk reaction?
Bewitched says
Dear Mila,
No sweets but my scrolling habit is out of control! Mostly on LwL.
You guys are just too good. Its, like, fact is better than fiction. An unmissable mixture of romance, psychology, delusion, comedy, …. I could go on.
I jest. I know myself how painful the entire thing it is. But so compelling.
I think that you might also be addicted, my dear Mila, but I am happy that you are because your musings are extremely valuable. And please don’t take this the wrong way. I rely on them. So many of us rely on one another these days. #PurposefulJanuary hasn’t quite kicked in yet….
Mila says
Haha, yes, I‘m also addicted to my phone and LwL!
I allow myself LwL though, because it clears my head and it’s better I ramble here than ramble to my LO. Also, it’s not fattening🙈
Thanks for finding my rambling valuable, I‘m not so sure, but I rely on Dr L to kick me out if I‘m getting annoying!
Lovisa says
Mila, Mila, Mila, put those sweets away and grab your running shoes.
You are engaging in an unhealthy coping mechanism. Swap it out for a healthy one. It’s easier than you think.
You can do it!
Mila says
Caught me, Lovisa!🙈
I actually quit running this morning because there was a massive temperature drop and I had this several-time-experience of immediately catching some cold after running in too cold air (not when I‘m already trained a bit, but in the beginning where unfortunately I‘m still at).
But I did a strength workout instead!💪🏻
And now that I noticed my urge to eat sweets, I‘ll pack them in the same mental drawer as LO and mark the drawer „don’t touch“.
So don’t write me off yet;)
Adam says
Yes I do. My go to is alcohol though. It helps keep my mind from wandering to things it shouldn’t when it is numbed by drinking. Usually I then sit on the couch with Momma and watch something with her or on my own but still near her. Sometimes playing a video game with my son too.
Sometimes I have a bit too much. Like last night. She was in the kitchen making something to eat and I was being my annoyingly flirty drunk that I usually am and I accidentally knocked over her 7-11 cup of soda all over the kitchen floor.
And this dear woman that is my wife instead of getting mad or upset at her drunk husband told me not to worry she would clean it up. She told me to take off my house shoes so I would track it around the house. She then took my hand and like a toddler (lmao at this) walked me to the recliner. Sat me down. Popped up the recliner and handed me the TV/DVD remote and told me to find something to watch and not to get up. I said I left my drink in there. And she looks at me though the door way from the kitchen to where I was and said “I don’t think you need anymore.” 46 year old man and I got grounded to the recliner for the rest of the night. 🙂
That’s love.
Mila says
Adam,
I think we had that before, that alcohol seems to have an opposite effect on us- it numbs you and keeps your mind from wandering, but makes me soften towards LO and lets my mind wander wherever it wants, which is not helpful with my LE.
But your wife sounds precious. Hang on to her and hang on there!
Jim says
First time poster here so be kind . A very unusual situation here in that my L.O is a LOT younger than me , as in 37 odd years younger , and I’m a 50 year old man . This isn’t a “lolita syndrome” as I don’t have any sexual thoughts towards her whatsoever , which is a bit unusual in the LVL sphere . It’s more of a paternal/protector thing . She’s so fragile and innocent looking I just want to take care of her . I think it might be a combination of being adopted myself and being childless , maybe a “broody” instinct kicking in as I get older with the realisation of my own mortality . I could easily kick in the “NC” aspect as – obviously- I don’t work with her , but as I said the “last gasp of youth” thing , along with the “protection factor” is keeping me obsessed . Once again let me reiterate this isn’t sexual , before I get “shamed” with a load of “hurty words” , i think it’s the greek “storge” definition , in that i feel almost a paternal need to keep her in innocence before this evil world devours her . I know i should devolve that responsibility to her parents but how do i get over this ?
Adam says
Welcome Jim
No judgement from me. While LO, when I was in contact with her, was younger than I not nearly as your age difference. However, the absence of any sexual thoughts is very familiar to me. While I could appreciate she was an attractive woman, it never went beyond that in my head.
For me it was single mother, on the ropes for a recent divorce from a man that cheated on her and continued to harass her in life. Throw in the company we worked for (she quite over a year ago) threw a tremendous work load on her that wasn’t her responsibility. By proxy the former person in that job description left and when they left they left a huge mess and she was the only one qualified to fix it. Until they called me in for her to train and then help her. So there was a big rescue complex going on in my head. Big time. Anyways I found this blog post of Dr. L’s that I think you’ll be able to relate to.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-and-the-rescue-fantasy/
Jim says
cheers mate , going to read this now
Marcia says
Jim,
“I know i should devolve that responsibility to her parents but how do i get over this ?”
Her parents? Isn’t she 37? She’s reponsible for herself by now, no?
Snowpheonix says
She’s 37 years younger, so 13.
Marcia says
Oh. I misread that
If she’s only 13 … abort mission!
Snowpheonix says
Jim,
“This isn’t a “Lolita syndrome” as I don’t have any sexual thoughts towards her whatsoever,…””Let me reiterate this isn’t sexual”….
On your conscious mind, it might be NOT; but at the Unconscious level, behind Glimmer/limerence IS genomic/biological drive for pair-bonding. I successfully, self-delusionally denied my subconscious drive for 4 years, until a jealousy of another woman shockingly grasped me…. So don’t let your altered limerent mind delude you that “this isn’t sexual’.
“Broody” instinct? If being childless, how do you know what “broody” instinct is and feels like? Don’t many 13 yrs old girls/boys look “fragile and innocent”?
In what possible ways that you, aside from her parents, could “keep her in innocence before this evil world devours her”? In what ways this world is evil to you? In what ways would she be devoured? If you’re around her, she would not be “devoured”?
If you think going NC is easy, then DO it.
SJ says
Well… if you do end up with *those* feelings towards her, especially as she pushes further into sexual maturity, I wouldn’t judge you as highly abnormal (Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t it rather normal for men to remain attracted to freshly blossomed young women?). My son is 17 and dates (far too much) and I’m enamored with all the young ladies parading through my home. Beautiful little things (one day I’m going to have gorgeous grand children!)… but here is a story:
Starting in middle school and through my second year of high school I had a private lesson teacher for a band instrument that, reflecting 20 years after his death, I must have been a meaningful relationship in his life. We never discussed much in depth but he intuited my family life wasn’t so great and that I suffered from self-accusation and dark, broody thoughts. He’d bring in materials about self-esteem and positive self-imagery… when his wife was expecting their 2nd child he said they would give the child my name if it was a girl (alas it was a boy!)… and a year later he told me that I was his favorite student, which I found utterly impossible because I was truly a mediocre musician (at the time I thought he was just trying to raise my spirits). Anyway… towards the end of my sophomore year he took a leave of absence for heart surgery. It was supposed to be 8 weeks recovery, but it was about week 11-12 that he finally called to set up a lesson. But something wasn’t right … gosh, he sounded so terrible on the phone… exhausted as if saying each word was a brave, tiring feat. The following afternoon I got a call from a classmate that he had passed away and I was very, very confused. I told the classmate he was wrong, we had scheduled our lesson just yesterday afternoon and everything was fine… but then another classmate called me… and another.. they all said the same thing yet not a single one of them had talked to our teacher the day before like I had.. so what was going on, why??? Why did he call me and not them? Why did they all know he died, but not me? To make matters worse, when we all went to his funeral it turned out to be in a solidly packed auditorium with thousands of people in attendance and I felt incredibly distant and disassociated… how could *I* have been his “favorite” amongst all these people? What kinda game was he playing with me? Years passed. Eventually I would become trained as a caregiver for the dying and got experience with the many reactions people have to death and one day it hit me that he wasn’t actually calling to schedule a lesson: He called to say goodbye and I was the only student at my school that got the call. And it also hit me that if this was true, then, in all likelihood, so were the other things I rejected … I actually was his favorite student and he thought about my well-being far beyond teaching me my instrument. He was about 30-35 years older than me, and no, I don’t think he had sexual feelings towards me, but if he did, he was able to deal with them appropriately and be the father figure I didn’t realize I needed. Maybe this is you too.
Marcia says
“I wouldn’t judge you as highly abnormal (Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t it rather normal for men to remain attracted to freshly blossomed young women?).”
Um, no. Not ones who are 13.
Snowpheonix says
Marcia,
I have to contradict you here: it’s very normal for men, from their puberty to their late 80s, to be biologically attracted to budding teenage girls — some of my LOs and attracted, appropriately-behaved men confessed to me, and we all were attractive teens ourselves once and knew what it was like with boys/men… The differences are: 1. normal biological attraction vs. limerence, and 2. actions vs. no actions on such an attraction.
SJ:
“I don’t think he had sexual feelings towards me, but if he did, he was able to deal with them appropriately and be the father figure I didn’t realize I needed”
You do NOT know his true feelings towards you besides his “fatherly” actions for apparently his most favorite student. Not acting on one’s hidden emotions but “heroically” on appropriate behaviors does not mean one never had “inappropriate” emotions. While our emotions continuously evolve, mostly contained within ourselves, our identity to the outside world is defined only by our actions. My point: you still do not know whether your teacher had sexual attraction to you.
Also, your teacher was a father already when he was instructing you, he could have genuine fatherly feelings for you, but why not his other students? Jim here has been childless, he could only imagine what being a father is like…. Being adopted does not automatically grant/give one, men or women, a parent mentality/psychology.
Jim:
If we want to get rid of our unwanted emotions, we first need to clearly know, understand, and accept their origins, on both conscious and unconscious levels, like what Dr L summarizes in his article: https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-and-the-rescue-fantasy/
If denying some apparently “immoral”/“inappropriate” emotions, or repressing them, due to social and moral codes, to the point that one is even unaware their existence, then we won’t be able to handle those unwanted feelings, such as limerence, tend to be driven crazily by them, and then deeply suffer.
That was my issue — insisted that I never consciously chose any LO to glimmer at (always took place in 5 seconds), until another member here, Sammy, points out that sometimes, our Unconscious/biological drives have made choices for us, while our conscious mind thinks otherwise. In my case, seeking an idealized surrogate parent to“compensate” my traumatic early childhood and “save” me from my Narc Mother; yet I was rarely seeking such a rescuer in fabulous, caring women, only attractive, seemingly caring & mature men with strong femininity, why?
Lost in Space says
Hi Jim, welcome! I’m pretty fascinated by what you wrote and am hoping you’ll feel safe sharing some more details about the situation, because what you shared so far leaves a lot to the imagination.
But what you wrote is fascinating because it seems like a different variation of limerence than anything I’ve seen described in the time I’ve spent on this blog. Again, your post was short on details so I’m just speculating, but I think I could imagine a scenario where a middle aged adult develops a strong attachment to a child that’s part of their life somehow, where the child triggers strong feelings of familial or parental love that get amplified into a limerence-like obsession. Perhaps the child reminds you of yourself somehow, perhaps you see the adults in their life mistreating them and you feel like you’re the only one who cares and can save them (a lot of us here have rescue fantasies as a major driver of our limerence). Perhaps you find yourself thinking about this child constantly, having obtrusive thoughts about them, feeling compelled to somehow demonstrate to them how much you love them, and feeling an overwhelming desire for them to reciprocate your love – and perhaps all of that occurs in the context of non-sexual, parental types of feelings. Is that something like what you’re experiencing?
Off the top of my head, I think my biggest concerns for you would be:
1) Even if your feelings are truly non-sexual now, they could probably become sexual pretty easily as she continues to mature, given the intensity of your feelings towards her.
2) Even if your feelings forever remain truly non-sexual, they could likely get misinterpreted as sexual by other adults in her life which could land you in a whole heap of trouble. Like, all of us here are at various levels of risk due to our involvement with our LOs, but if the LO is a child then the consequences could be truly life-destroying for you. Both are bad, but there is definitely a world of difference between getting served divorce papers for infidelity vs getting hit with child sex crime charges.
3) Limerence is ultimately selfish – even when we think we’re being noble and selfless and doing things only for our LO’s benefit, we’re really doing them to satisfy our own needs. I can recognize times where I’ve hurt my LO by my actions which at the time seemed like they would have been completely beneficial for her, but in retrospect were clearly not. And my LO is a mature, intelligent and independent adult woman – when your LO is a child, I think there could be tremendous potential for harming her through well-intentioned but misguided actions while you’re under the influence of limerence.
But again, I’m just doing a lot of speculating here and could be completely off base – I hope you’ll feel comfortable sharing more and engaging with the community here!
Jim says
Thanks so much Bewitched/Snow/Lost in Space , i appreciate your responses so much , I think Marcia may have missed the point but I appreciate her too . Like I said , there is NO sexual attraction whatsoever to this girl , it’s a feeling of love and wanting to protect – hence my remark “I should leave it to her parents” . But then how do I even KNOW she has “parents” PLURAL , she may have no present father , maybe my mind is subconciously questioning that , and wanting to step into the “void” . Another thing I should have mentioned is that I was abused by a (male) “friend of the family” during my adolescence and also went to an all-boys school , so I never had female “friends” during my teen years , so maybe this LO is a longing for something I never got to experience ?
Snowpheonix says
Then why this particular 13 yrs old, not other fragile-innocent looking teenage girls around? No offense here: I just do not buy your self-claimed notion, “there is no sexual feeling” involved… How do you get to know your Unconscious?
I questioned hundreds of times: there are other more handsome, younger available men in my life, then why this LO, not others?
Dig deeper inside yourself, then answers might pop up… Whether she has parent(s) really should NOT be your concern, you are NOT in a position to fill that “void”, even if she’s an orphan.
Bewitched says
Dear Jim,
I am really very sorry to hear that you were abused yourself as a child. I sincerely hope that you are getting help and support in coming to terms with the complicated emotions that this brings. I really hope that you have been able to speak to someone you trust about this? I imagine that the intense feelings that you have for this girl may be related to what happened to you in the past, somehow, either directly or indirectly. I do think that exploring these thoughts may be a way of coming to terms with what you have suffered. Is there someone that you trust and can talk to?
I would like to offer my very best wishes.
Jim says
Thanks L.I.S still getting used to the “reply” functions on this forum . As I’ve mentioned below , I was abused by a “friend of the family” in my teens , and also went to an all-boys school , so never mixed with those in the demographic of my LO , which I think may explain my belated fascination . I’m not worried about getting hit with child sex charges as I’ve never even spoken to her , I’m just keeping a distance . I wonder if she could be my “muse” to create productivity like a few great artists did , I forget who it was but someone posted on here that one of the great artists only met his “muse” once or twice then went on to write groundbreaking works ?
MJ says
“I’ve never even spoken to her , I’m just keeping a distance”
I feel like this has all the ingredients of something going very wrong down the line. Keep in mind, she will have no clue what’s going on at this age.
I understand you have past hurts, but I guarantee she is not going to even have a slight clue how to help make that better for you. Especially if you don’t even personally know her. Justifying this in any way is dangerous territory.
ABCD says
Hi Jim. Thanks for sharing your story, its quite different from the stories of the rest of us. If I may, I would like to caution you that the the boundary between the “glimmer” phase and the phase where the rumination/intrusive/negative thoughts start is pretty thin. Speaking for myself, I could not even realise when I slipped from phase 1 to phase 2, and landed myself neck deep in LE. Slowly trying to get out, and trying to succeed (fingers crossed), and boy, is it hard.
Going in line with what other members have said, my 2 cents are also that it would be good not to engage with her.
Good luck!
Bewitched says
As you see Jim there is no judgement here. I advise to talk it out here while trying to maintain a low contact (LC). Perhaps no contact – NC – should be phased in, depending on the circumstances.
Lost in Space is correct, this is a perilous situation, so we are all here to support you in getting through it.
The mind is altered during limerence and your judgement is not reliable.
All the best
Jim says
cheers Bewitched , good advice , I haven’t disclosed or even really ruminated on it , just admired/been mildly besotted from afar , but like any old bugger with an LO I’m always thinking “What if” , the cursed 2 words !
Lovisa says
Hi Jim, thanks for sharing your story.
I wonder if I can help you see something from her perspective. I was raised as a father-less girl. There were many good-intentioned adult men who played a father-like role in my life. I am grateful for them. Let me warn you about something. I had a favorite teacher in Jr high. That same teacher transferred to my high school so he was in my life from 7th grade until graduation. Even when I didn’t take his classes, I would pop into his room periodically for a visit. He was a well-liked teacher. He also happened to be young and good looking, but I don’t think that was the reason I liked him. He seemed to have a genuine concern for his students. I adored him when I was a student. I ran into him as an adult. I was 18. He flirted with me. I felt angry and disgusted. All those years of feel-good feelings were gone in an instant. I questioned why he was so nice to me for all those years. I thought we had a lovely connection, but after he flirted with me, I suspected that he had been attracted to me all along. I kind of wish I had never run into him as an adult. It would have been preferable to believe that our relationship was as innocent as I had thought when I was still his student.
Here is my warning to you, if you can’t behave appropriately towards this girl forever, just leave her alone. Don’t establish a father-like relationship with her just to pull the rug out from beneath her feet when she is an adult.
I hope you find peace. I hope you aren’t experiencing limerence at the level that many of us have experienced it. I can’t imagine how much worse it would have been for me if I had ruminations and intrusive thoughts about a young person. Oh boy, that would be so awful.
MJ says
“Here is my warning to you, if you can’t behave appropriately towards this girl forever, just leave her alone. Don’t establish a father-like relationship with her just to pull the rug out from beneath her feet when she is an adult.”
Excellent reply Lovisa.
A very good suggestion. I am sorry your idea of the perfect Teacher was tarnished.
Lovisa says
Thanks MJ!
Jim says
Thanks Lovisa. It’s funny , I’m subscribed to a few “stoic” channels on youtube and I’ve just seen a quote that could basically be the motto of this site , and limerence in general :
“We suffer more in imagination than we do in reality” – Senecus
Lovisa says
Wow, that is a great quote, Jim!
Adam says
I wanted a daughter when we were trying to have children. We had two boys. Both premature so it was best we didn’t try for a third. I got a vasectomy shortly after our second son was born.
Before we had our own children my wife’s cousin and her husband had two. One of them a girl. Children seem to avoid me for the most part. But not her. She would always come to me on her own when we would visit. As she learned to talk she couldn’t say my name fully so it came out wrong and it came to be my “pet name”. Now she’s 20 and dating a man with the intentions of getting married. Ugh I’m so old. But I still questioned this man’s intentions with my wife. She’d always assure me he was a man with good intentions.
LO’s daughter was 15 when I first met her. As a single mother in the summer months some days LO had no one to be with her being there was no school so she’d bring her to work.
One day (after multiple times of her bringing her daughter to work) I see her talking to a boy just outside the front of the office, which was plate glass. I ask LO “who is that talking to [her daughter’s name]?” Adam that’s her boyfriend. “Well I don’t like it!” Why? “She’s too young. And I don’t trust my own gender. And she may not be my daughter but I’ll be damned if I don’t treat her like she is!” She said it’s normal to start dating at this age. “I was 20 before I first dated!” That was a different time Adam.
That’s just my story. I totally agree with Marcia that this a very dangerous situation to be in. And if you, Jim, do have these strong; protect, preside and provide, as a fatherly figure to this young lady, that you be the one to do the right thing, NC, until you can exit this altered state of mind. Because in the end ALL of us limerents, no matter our circumstances with our LOs have to do what’s best for them not ourselves.
MJ says
Jim, all the advice given thus far I think is decent. No judging from me either. I just feel like this is dangerous territory. Given the roller coaster of emotions I have gone through being limerent. It’s terrible and I wouldn’t wish it on anybody.
I see your situation as a route you may not want all the aggravation from going down, and then what could become of this.
My 2 cents. But I really kind of actually agree with Marcia here.
Abort mission..
Jim says
Cheers Adam (and M.J) good and sound advice . I understand that it’s a potentially dangerous situation , which makes it sadder as I’ve got no nefarious intentions , but I understand that it wouldn’t “look good” to other adults if I was seen to be potentially “grooming” a young girl , unfortunately that’s the situation nowadays , people are always quick to see the worst in each other and jump to conclusions
Jim says
Thanks again everyone , especially Lovisa & Adam for your stories , I will re-read them daily this week and try and knock some sense into myself . There’s a few other things I need to mention which might explain my odd predicament . I need to break this up into paragraphs so I don’t assail you with a wall of text :
My first LE/LO , when I was 16 , was when I fell for a girl who took the same bus as me into town . She was 18 and working , I was still at school . It lasted about 6 months , and consisted of us writing “love letters” (remember those , with S.W.A.L.K on the envelope ??) to each other . She used to spray the envelopes with perfume (usually Coco Chanel) and I was elated to see the envelope on the doormat every few evenings . It eventually petered out as I guess she probably thought I was too young and clingy . Now history has repeated itself 35 years later as current LO was waiting at a bus stop when I first saw her . Without sounding too cheesy , this is what happened . I was walking to work end of 2022 and looked over at the bus stop and she had her head down. I carried on walking but I felt almost a psychic “nudge” to look over again , and as soon as I saw her eyes , my heart skipped a beat and I realised I “knew” her from somewhere before and that was me done !! She doesn’t look like my first LO so it wasn’t that , more of a “previous life” type thing , I’m sure we’ve all experienced that strange feeling at some time .
Second fact that might play a huge role in this . I was adopted (effectively abandoned) at birth . My mother had me outside of wedlock , which was considered shameful among Catholics in the U.K in the 70’s . Her family effectively offered her a choice – give me up , or be excommunicated from the family so I was adopted by a lovely couple and had a great childhood , until the adolescent molestation situation . The kicker is she actually went onto marry my birth father and had more children a few years later . The second proverbial kick in the teeth came about 20 years ago . I managed to track her down and it turned out , somewhat impossibly , she’d literally been living in the same town as me for over 10 years ! We met each other a couple of times , and her last words to me were “you’re too like your father” , that was the last time I saw her – so she effectively abandoned me twice ! I think this may be subconciously why I can’t bear the thought of not seeing my current LO again , or disclosing to her , an underlying fear of being ‘abandoned’ again.
Finally , if I haven’t bored you all to death by now , I think loneliness plays a factor too . I’ve been single for 15 years now , that’s a long time to go without a kiss and a hug . Normally I’m pretty stoic about being alone , in my mind I don’t “need” anyone for company but I’m starting to think I’m deluding myself . The old sayings tend to be true , and “no man is an island” is the one that springs to mind . Being a bachelor can be mentally hard . I go to the gym 5 times a week and try and keep myself busy but you still come home to an empty place . I think I might need to start some side project up to keep myself busy and stop these intrusive thoughts coming all the time .
TLDR : I wish I’d never walked past that bus stop that morning . If only there was a pill we could take that would erase certain memories/faces eh ?
Lovisa says
Hi Jim,
I see that you have what feels like a supernatural connection to your LO. Yes, I can relate to this feeling. It is very common to feel this way about an LO. Most limerents use the terms “twin flame” or “soul mate” if not “glimmer.” I actually fell for it with LO1. I made the mistake of wondering if he and I were destined to be together. I wondered if I had married the wrong person (I cringe at the thought now because my SO is definitely the right person for me). That special feeling is just your internal chemicals flooding your system. You probably didn’t know her in a previous life. Your hormones surged when you made eye contact with her. That is all.
I see that you live with residual feelings of… I’m guessing rejection… due to your adoptive status. I’m sorry about that. I was raised by my birth-mom so I can’t relate personally. My oldest brother found out that he was adopted when he was a teenager. It really shook him. He still feels insecure about it and that makes me sad. He thinks it makes him different. I don’t think he is different than my biological brothers. I wish he could see how much his adoption status doesn’t matter to the rest of us. I adopted four of my kids. I don’t see the same chronic feelings of rejection in my adopted kids that I see in my brother. It’s probably different for my kids because they have regular contact with their birth-mom. She clearly loves them. She lacks skills to raise her kids due to a drug problem so my kids are quite happy to be raised by us instead. I guess it is just different because they can’t put their birth-mom on a pedestal and fantasize about a woman who would love them so much that it wouldn’t matter if their bedroom is messy and their homework isn’t finished she would still let them eat cookies for dinner. I don’t actually know what it looks like to put a birth-parent on a pedestal, but I’ve heard from adopted adults that they used to put their birth-mom on a pedestal whenever they were upset with their adopted mother. I guess my kids might do it, but I doubt it because they know their birth-mom. Anyway, I think you are trying to make sense of your current LE and you are brainstorming what factors might contribute to it. Good job! Keep it up. Maybe your adoption status contributes to it. We can work with that theory. Did you notice I said “we”? You are not alone. You have a group of adults who are ready to walk this journey with you. I love that you are being open and vulnerable with us. Nice work! Let’s tackle this LE together.
Oh my, you mentioned that you feel the impulse to disclose to your LO. It is a common problem that limerents wrestle with. When you are in a better head space, we’ve got some hilarious disclosure-gone-wrong stories to share with you. For now, the fact that your LO is a child makes it especially important that you DO NOT DISCLOSE to her. Don’t be the creepy guy at the bus stop, k?
I’m sorry that you’re lonely. I don’t think a project is the only solution to your loneliness. I think you need human connections. Think of a healthy relationship that you can nurture. Now tell me who it is (don’t tell me their name). A friend? A cousin? A colleague? A neighbor? You need healthy relationships. Humans are pack animals. Pick one and start there. A project might be a good way to add purpose to your life and that is definitely something worth pursuing. But to ease your loneliness, I think you need healthy relationships. Did you mention you were Catholic? Church is a fabulous place to look for healthy relationships.
By the way, I am not on LwL as often as I used to be. If I miss a post, I am sorry. I will try to check in on you. This community is amazing! If I’m not here to offer support and encouragement, someone will be here. When you are ready, maybe you will be the person who helps out a fellow limerent.
Hang in there, Jim. You got this.
Jim says
Thanks for the amazing and detailed response Lovisa . Being adopted never really bothered me . I have 2 sisters . One of them is the “birth daughter” of the parents who raised me , the other one was adopted as well , for the same reason , her mother was Irish and had her out of wedlock too , and it was an even bigger disgrace back in Ireland then , there were no abortion laws and her mother had to give birth to her over here in England . Her “mother” (I use that as distinct from “mum” , our “mum” is the one who raised us) turned up on her driveway asking if they could have a relationship . My sister , to use the English vernacular , told her to “piss off” . As far as she was concerned , her mother dumped her and that was that , she didn’t understand the pressure that was on “errant” young girls who got pregnant back in the day . I do , which is why I have nothing against my birth mother but still maybe harbour a subconscious sense of rejection .
Regarding the whole “disclosure” thing . I think I’m (for once) possibly in a better place than a lot of people on here , in that I don’t even really need to “go NC” because I’ve never contacted her in the first place . The closest I’ve come to “being with” her is a mutual friendly smile . But I’m also aware of dopamine , and how one “mutual smile” can become a daily need . The need for recognition if nothing else . And when you have an , effectively empty life , that can easily turn into an obsession …
Jim says
Sorry Lovisa , I’ve re-read your comment and just feel compelled to make another short reply . I’m not sure how my hormones play a part in this , as once again , I feel no sexual attraction to this girl at all . Although maybe it is “oxycontin” which I believe is the “binding” hormone that is released after sex . Maybe there’s a possibility it can be released mentally without anything physical taking place ? That would open up a whole new world ! Also I understand the “don’t be the creepy guy at the bus stop” thing big time . There’s a big difference between the 16 year old boy at the bus stop I was when I met my first LO to the 50 year old guy I am now !
Jim says
EDIT : Oxytocin
Lovisa says
That makes sense, Jim. I’ve been thinking about your situation today. I took my daughters and the neighbor kids sledding. We had a great time! I thought about how you said you didn’t have any friends and you are lonely. I really think that might contribute to your LE. Is there any social network that you can become more involved with?
Snowpheonix says
Jim,
You really couldn’t see the parallel situation of your romance history with that of Prof. Humbert in “Lolita”? Your 16 yrs bus-stop experience is “love” related with perfume scented love letters!
The details of plots are not as important as similar emotions, via sight, scent, sound,, provoked…
Every time I spell fresh oil-paint of metals no matter where, LO#1/LE #1 would pop into my mind, because it was related to his work when I glimmered at him… The Body Keep the Score” of all sorts….
No one could consciously feel or recognize one’s genomic drive when it is at work — the first slight glimmer at someone seemingly coming from one’s previous life! It happened to EVERY LO I’ve had (more than a dozen), and I did not think it was sexual related at all — none of them aroused me physically. But IT IS, just subconsciously working by our invisible hormone.
Having it and facing it objectively is not a criminal, it’s human.
Snowpheonix says
Typo: “everything I smelled fresh paint of metals…”
Snowpheonix says
A typo of “typo”: Every time I smelled…
Jim says
BEWITCHED – thanks for your lovely comment , unfortunately for some reason it won’t let me reply directly to it . Obviously it was a horrid time of my life . The abuser was an old university friend of my dads , and was highly respected , he was a Colonel in a famous army unit here called the SAS and was also a diplomat in the Foreign Office , so there was no-one who’d have believed me at the time if I’d have told them , so I had to suffer in silence . I’ve told one of my sisters (she is the “blood” daughter of my adoptive parents) but my adoptive (late) dad was the apple of her eye and I think she suffers cognitive dissonance thinking/wondering how he didn’t know what was going on , so she just brushes it off if I mention it . The situation also led me to alcoholism and developed an addictive personality in me which I’ve never really been able to get over . In retrospect it probably ruined my life but I’ve never “sought help” over it as I think “you can’t change what’s happened , so no point trying”
Adam says
Jim
First off all the ladies here are so helpful in their perspective for us male limerents. If it weren’t for Miss Lovisa, Marcia, Bewitched, Limmy (alas she doesn’t post much anymore) Snowphoniex and many others whose names are escaping me, I wouldn’t have made the progress that I have.
Also….
“The situation also led me to alcoholism and developed an addictive personality in me which I’ve never really been able to get over.”
I totally understand. My situation was nothing like yours. But it drove me to drinking at a young age. So as little or as much as you want to talk about it I am here. Especially since in limerence my drinking increased exponentially to numb out the intrusive thoughts.
I’d like to share a story. I worked with her for 4 months day to day, five days a week, traveling to her location each day. I had been assigned to help her on a project from the owner of the company himself. So there was no escaping the situation. She is a very hard working woman and we knocked out what we had to do much soon than was expected. Corporate was very happy with our results. Unfortunately they also weren’t very forthcoming with any real thanks to her for her hard work. Now I say this sober (for the most part) from limerence that what I thought then may not have been my real intentions.
So I decided I would do something myself to express thanks for the hard work she did. I wanted to get her a gift. Even if it was a gift card or something. “Thank you for your hard work since no else will say it.” Well I got to thinking; 44 year old man giving a gift to a single young lady (10 years younger)? How would that look? What would other employees think?
At the time I told myself that’s all that it was. A “thank you”. But the more I thought the more it became obvious to me that despite not having any ulterior motives (I knew not what limerence was at this time) I still had to consider how other people would see it, even if it was a selfless gesture. (Which in limerence it was because I wouldn’t admit otherwise.) So I ended up doing nothing and just thanked her in word.
Loneliness can be difficult. My wife and I were both in a bad place individually I think as to why limerence came into play with myself. And instead of sitting with her and talking to her and trying to make it right between us I gave another woman my attention. And she returned it. And then it all went downhill from there. A year and half since I have seen her, my wife and I have made great progress in getting our marriage back together. And those feelings of loneliness have gone away and I once again feel invested in our marriage. So I know that the loneliness is a powerful motivator in letting the limerence linger. And I let it linger in me for a long time after LO left the job. My wife posts here from time to time too. She could tell you how long and how bad I was in it.
Jim says
Cheers again Adam . ” Well I got to thinking; 44 year old man giving a gift to a single young lady (10 years younger)? How would that look? What would other employees think?” . Yet she was 34 , nearly twice the age of an “official” adult female . Why were you worried about that ? I think you can blame 2nd wave feminism for a lot of this crap , women have been brainwashed into thinking there’s something “creepy|” about older men pursuing them when it’s been the normality in human history up until just a few decades ago . I don’t want to bring politics into anything here as this isn’t a political site but I believe “feminism”coupled with social media has completely wrecked inter-sexual relationships , possibly irreparably . I wish I had a TARDIS to go back to the 80’s/90’s !
Snowpheonix says
As an ESL speaker, I did not grow up in the West with (either 1st or) “2nd wave feminism” and I never have had a twister account and use Instagram only for a bit necessary work, so my knowledge here might be inadequate or inaccurate. Is this a matter of politics or social progress in terms of equality (involving vast complex issues, eg. biology and mentality) between men and woman?
From my understanding, “creepiness” is not necessarily based on chronic age but expression in men/women’s eyes — fundamentally different with Eros or Storge shining through them. We girls/women instinctively KNOW the difference (as soon as menstruation kicked in). One’s conscious mind might believe there is only Storge in them, but his or her subconscious drives, no matter how deeply hidden, would reveal whether Eros is present or not. Intense Eros leads to obsession/addiction — limerence.
While attracted to budding teenagers in both sexes is biological normal, “pursuing” them, even in my macho COO, is creepy and considered predatory, because they are too young to know or understand what’s going on, despite they might be attracted to seemingly parental figures, if they come from a dysfunction family.
It sounds like before 80’s/90’s throughout history, there were uncountable Lolita cases; just look at those hundreds of rape crimes committed by Catholic priests — Oh those God’s mighty “merciful” hands!… If so many cases occurred within the scared walls, is anything impossible or unimaginable outside the godly walls?
Thankfully, no AI can invent a TARDIS yet; but one can dream along hopefully with substantial peace….🧘♀️
Bewitched says
Dear Jim,
Its great to see that you have started to identify a trigger for this LO.
The addictive personality traits seem to come up regularly on LwL. Adam has provided a wonderful synopsis of his experience, which may resonate. Some of the rest of us struggle with OCD (myself, undiagnosed), anxiety issues, etc. Mila has a sugar craving that she may tell you about sometime 🙂
Many of us have taken up running or other immersive activities to prevent unhealthy habits and LO rumination. But Lovisa’s advice about tackling the loneliness first (“humans are pack animals”) is spot-on. And that includes virtual friends, like us lot. You can start here and then include face-to-face persons, and all the purposeful living stuff, a little later.
I also loved your quote “We suffer more in imagination than we do in reality”, by the way.
Sending strength.
Jim says
Thanks Bewitched , I definitely feel straight at home here , everyone is very understanding and I think as you said , shares a lot of the same personality traits . I have 2 sisters but obviously couldn’t talk to them about any of this . They have their own families and although they obviously love me , I’d never in a million years think about dropping this “baggage” on them , as they’re younger than me , and I think it would be embarrassing for their older brother to look this needy so that’s out of the question . I don’t have any friends either , they all settled down and have families and we lost contact years ago , so I’m totally on my own
Mila says
Bewitched,
My sugar addiction is blooming because I have this plan of reducing sugar after business travel next week, and unfortunately I seem to think I have to make up for it by eating the double amount now😂
It’s also a replacement addiction for LO, that’s right.
Jim,
I‘m sorry, I‘m so busy right now, don’t dare to react to your situation without having read all posts, but don’t find the time , sorry. so all the best to you, I’m sure/ hope you got great advice from all the lovely people here!
Lovisa says
Mila, I have better success with goal setting if it’s a positive goal. For example, if I had a sugar problem, I would write on my goal chart something like “protein and veggies at every meal.” I would give myself a check mark when I eat my protein and veggies. I get so full that I don’t eat nearly as many sweets as I might eat otherwise. It is just something that works for me. I’ve had success with “one treat per day” in the past, but it’s tricky to define what exactly counts as a treat. I keep my goal chart next to my bed so it is the first thing I see in the morning and the last thing at night. I reset it weekly.
Anyway, that is what helps me. Good luck! Sweets are so hard to quit, but I believe in you!
ABCD says
Hi Mila. Like you, I also love sugar. What helps me is keeping sugary stuff in my office, but not eating it 🙂
I think if you pick up a sport/exercise, once you start to see improvements, the craving may go down, as you want to maintain things.
It is hard to kick the sugar addiction (just like LO addiction :)), but I’m sure you can do it.
As Lovisa said, begin by setting small/realistic goals – X amount of sweets per week.
Good luck!!
Mila says
Hi Lovisa and ABCD,
Thanks!
You seem to be a bit stronger than me;) because this
„ What helps me is keeping sugary stuff in my office, but not eating it 🙂“ wouldn’t work with me, I would just eat it at same point😂,
And this
„ I eat my protein and veggies. I get so full that I don’t eat nearly as many sweets as I might eat otherwise“ neither, because it’s a psychological craving, for comfort or treat. I tried this and then just ate veg, protein AND sweets 😉
What usually helps is first to reduce it, and then I want it less. The more or regular I eat sweets, the more I want them. When I manage to cut them out for a while, I don’t even want them so much, this is something physical that works, and then I have to be careful not to start again when I‘m stressed. It’s a habit of mine to eat sweets to feel comforted when stressed.
It’s definitely related to limerence. It’s just hard to stop both at the same time.
But I will get there. I‘m still in a good path with my LE, and have already yesterday decided not to eat sweets today.
I‘ll let you know how both goes in the long run 🙈
Bewitched says
Dear Mila,
You seem to be doing great despite the sweets. I see that you are very busy with work and needing to do some travel? What better way of filling your time with purposeful living-type thoughts (travel broadens the mind and takes us out of the humdrum)? Even if you are working like an absolute slave – I am sure its going to be intense, it always is with travel for work, you’ll feel purposeful.
You always come across as someone who enjoys your job.
ABCD and Lovisa are right, once the limerence is under control, the sugar will take care of itself.
Sending lots and lots of happy thoughts your way.
I hope the classical music concert was nice, by the way 🙂
Mila says
Hi ABCD, hi Bewitched, hi Lovisa,
Thanks for the support with the sweets:)!
I’m doing definitely better on the LO front.
Like with Bewitched, it helped to veto rumination as soon as it crept up on me.
Work helps, too. It was work where I got along with LO especially well and I miss him still, but slowly I get used to him not being there and build other successful work relationships.
Yes, I enjoy my job very much, I can say that it’s the ideal job for me.
Also, I enjoy being at home too at the moment, family is in a good mood and well, that helps enormously not to crave any LOs too.
But I have to say that I drank a lot of coffee today which might make me a bit hysterically enthusiastic 😁
I thought about it- I always loved sweets, but I think the feeling of getting a bit addicted to them started with the second half of my first LE (when it got painful).
Classical concert was good and interesting, thanks!
Nisor says
Hi Jim,
So, you say your life was ruined but you never went to seek professional help? ( after the physical abuse)
There’s some underlying problem in your subconscious that needs to be taken care of by a professional therapist. As much as we want to help you, no one here is a therapist or specialist in this kind of behavior you mentioned. You’re still young and can live a free life from these traumas if taken care of by a therapist. If left unhandled it may become worse. You seem to be an intelligent person to recognize you need immediate help from
a professional, now. Keep us posted of your progress. I don’t mean to be blunt, but it’s a pity you have bottled up so much and now is showing in a very unusual way. You can get over this with therapist help instead of suffering of loneliness and being limerent for a very young girl that will lead nowhere or maybe mess you up further. Let’s be reasonable and do the right thing. Everyone wins!
Best wishes.
frederico says
Jim
This link from 2017 describes a measured and balanced view about the merits and demerits of therapy, in my opinion.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/therapy-for-limerence/
f
Problem Child says
Just an update…
I think I have turned a corner. I quite literally woke up this morning and realised I did not feel the same. Like waking up from a bad dream, I felt a sense of relief, he’s just not in my head in the same way as before. I’ve actually had a few moments today where I wasn’t thinking about him, then of course I realise I’m not thinking about him and…bam! But it’s a step in the right direction, probably will be two steps forward, one back for a while…
Thank you for the support, advice and encouragement. It’s so helpful to know that this isn’t just me and can be overcome, with hard work. I am going to give SO the chance he deserves and at some point try to get more emotionally intimate with him, that is definitely lacking in our relationship. I’ve also been reading up on love languages and mine seems to be words of affirmation, which he is not good at, but neither am I. Now is the time to change that!
It will be difficult when LO returns from holiday, and I can’t decide whether to just not say anything, or tell him what I’ve decided. There’s a strong chance he won’t bring it up so I’m tempted just to leave things but then is that fair? If I do initiate a conversation I can see me being drawn back in, or backing out somehow. I’d appreciate some thoughts.
Problem Child says
And now I have an urge to text LO! 🙈
Bewitched says
Problem Child,
Wow – this is an amazing turnaround. You have come a very long way from the turmoil of the weeks before Christmas.
I am super-delighted that you are seeing things clearly. Absence of the LO was really an opportunity, wasn’t it?
I would be strongly tempted to say nothing. The reason being, having a “deep and meaningful” conversation with him might set you back. He has his own SO and his own relationship issues (from what he said). Those might have been resolved over the holidays and, if they were, its also good for him and his family. Also, if he has decided to not being it up (as has already happened post-disclosure), it tells you something, doesn’t it? He is obviously conflicted. I would really focus hard on not second-guessing his reasons for not bringing it up either. They actually don’t matter.
The fact is that this might have been a passing fancy (doubtful and all as that may have felt at the time). There are SOs and kids involved, so treading conservatively is so, so important.
In case you have a set-back, try to remember and crystallize what exactly this morning’s thoughts that have set you on this new path were? You may need to recycle and re-use them later.
I wish you the very best of good luck in reconnecting with your SO. You owe this to each other X
ABCD says
@Problem Child. That’s great news! I am really happy for you. I think the NC during the holiday season helped you. Speaking for myself, I also feel that I am navigating my LE better, due to holiday NC. I am trying to use this time to build up my resilience. It’s ok to get thoughts about LO every now and then, hopefully, they will not cause you distress. Reconnecting with SO will help you a lot too. Congratulations on this development, and keep going!
Mila says
Hi Problem Child,
It’s a good thing you managed to distance yourself a bit and give SO another chance! Keep this in mind, hold on to it when he‘s back!
Since he avoided the subject before he went away, I would stay passive here.
He can come and ask if he wants to know what you think.I wouldn’t initiate anything before you adjusted to the situation that he‘s back, and see how you feel then. Don’t rush into anything, don’t feel you have to be active or owe him an explanation. Just watch how you feel yourself and take care firstly about yourself, not him.
.
Problem Child says
Thank you all,
I am feeling a lot more positive about the situation. I’m very wary though, as this happened so very quickly and so could easily turn in the wrong direction again too (but at least I recognise that it would be the wrong direction!).
Yes, it will be simpler to not raise the issue when he returns. Of course there is a part of me that still wants him to want me, and so I need to be careful, the less interaction the better.
I’d met with a very trusted friend the night before, one whom I confided in a few months ago, so that probably had an impact. I also wonder if SO had an inkling that something wasn’t right as he’s been putting a bit more effort into our relationship (practical things as that’s his style). It seems to have been helpful for me to imagine the reality if I chose LO too, and the reality for my children. Just pain everywhere. I need to accept that people aren’t perfect and neither are relationships, but if I was happy in the main before, I can be happy again, and with hard work we could be even better.
I feel it will be a bumpy road ahead but I’m confident that this will make me a better person, I just need to keep making the right decisions. We all do!
ABCD says
Hi Problem Child. I guess you should not put too much pressure on yourself right now, and feel good about this positive step. Are we out of the woods – no. Are we in the right direction – yes. As you said earlier, if you take two steps forward, even with one step backwards, its still progress. Plus, there is too much at stake (SO, children). You don’t need LO to make you happy, you can find happiness from other sources – your family, friends, work, exercise.
Once you start detaching/disengaging, that will come with its own challenges, you may go through withdrawal pain, but you will feel better as time goes on. Plus, I think that eventually, the happiness that you feel will be more stable and long lasting, as compared to the happiness you feel with LO, which is is very unpredictable (quick highs followed by quick lows).
I am reminding myself of all that I am typing here, so that I can follow it too.
Let us know how your interaction with LO pans out, when he is back from break.
All the best!
ABCD says
Hi everyone. A quick update from my side.
I feel like I am handling my LE better than before. Thoughts of her still pop in my head every now and then on a daily basis, but they are not that intrusive. Rumination is also reduced, I feel. I am able to function better. I am generally feeling happier (was feeling pretty low earlier). I am sure NC is doing its thing (zero contact for the past 4 weeks).
Bewitched says
Hi ABCD,
This is really fantastic to hear. Wow, 4 weeks of NC is not so long, in the sense that repeating this is manageable again in the future. If you get sucked back in (which is always a risk for us) you can implement NC and be confident that it will work after a few weeks to reduce the highs and lows that you were experiencing. Awesome!
What has helped me these past weeks is reducing rumination. As you know, I had noticed a bigger and bigger chill creeping into my virtual interactions with LO. This was despite the opposite in person f2f. Very much the opposite. It was leading to a lot of fretting on my part because I didn’t know if he was doing bad / depressed. And, to be honest, I was pretty depressed myself because I had major issues recently (not related to him at all) and thought he was being insensitive.
Although I have had contact since returning to work, I kept my resolve on three things: 1) tried to stop the rumination (“who cares if he is insensitive?”). 2) I tried to stop daydreaming about him (I used him as a mood regulator). I also took him off the pedestal (this was key – he is lovely but only a man). And I seem to be doing better, *despite* contact. I also had a laugh with you lot on here, which helped. And I am looking fantastic – if I do say so myself. All that exercise….
I hope that when contact eventually does establish for you, that you stick to your resolve on some of the things we know work to reduce the limerence, namely no daydreaming, no pedestals, no rumination, no seeking validation….
Sending lots of encouragement!
ABCD says
Thanks Bewitched! Yes, I need to be wary of the future, when there is LO contact. Your three tips make a lot of sense, especially the one on using LO as a mood regulator, I am trying to follow this one, this really helps. #1 less rumination is also happening. Hardest for me right now is #3, taking LO off pedestal.
Like you, analysing past LO interactions really played a huge role in stoking the LE fire for me, so ruminating less can really work towards regulating our mood for the better.
BTW, I am also looking a whole lot better after doing all this exercies for the past 1+ year 🙂
I am really glad that you are doing well even with LO contact, kudos!
Imho says
So nice to read all this positive progress from so many.
On the pedestal thing that ABCD is struggling with, I had that real bad and there is a video on YouTube ( the lady that talks at high speed) who spoke of the imagery of her LO was literally at the top of her minds eye, like some higher being. I had that too. So I imagined me putting my hand on top of his ( beautiful) face and dragging it down to the bottom right of my minds eye. It kinda works to lessen the pedestal thing. Close your eyes and try it. I also got to know him better which meant less pedestal,but, be warned it meant more caring and loving feelings.
Am also trying not to daydream of him so much as it’s essentially a distraction from the stuff I don’t want to face. I think at some level I want to “be rescued” but he is not going to rescue me nor anyone else for that matter.
Keep up the great mindsets !
Mila says
Wow Bewitched and ABCD,
you are being real role models here! Sounds like you are doing well in the LO front too, and looking fantastic too:)
Good for you!
I can say too that it helped me enormously to write here and get all your helpful responses.
Like ABCD, I still have the test of real contact looming, but for now I don’t feel that limerent any more.
ABCD, even when real contact might throw us a bit back, we can scramble back on track quickly! We‘ve got Bewitched as an example.
ABCD says
Thanks Mila, wow, that’s great, keep it up.
Yes, we will look at Bewitched as an inspiration. I agree, exchanging messages here is sort of like going through therapy. We get to see that there are others in the same boat, and we can seek each other’s help as we go through this. Hugely beneficial.
Problem Child says
That’s great news, ABCD,
I am looking forward to consistent, prolonged periods of him not popping up in my thoughts. Today has been ok, he is on my mind, but I keep drawing myself back to reality – SO, kids, work… and I am not down about the situation, like I was last week. I had to message him about something work related but he hasn’t replied or seen the message yet and that is fine. I kept it short, to the point and formal, but it still doesn’t help with the rumination. I could have not messaged him, I could have made a decision on it, and I know that is my limerent brain at work, alas! I will try not to be too hard on myself about it, although I soon as I’d clicked send I thought, “you idiot!”
You’re all such and inspiration!
ABCD says
Thanks Problem Child.
Yeah – sending messages to LO and expecting a response, I have been there and done that. This is a huge stress causing activity. Though if the message is work related, LO should have responded. I guess it boils down to seeking LO validation, if you can minimise/eliminate that, that is the ideal scenario. It is hard, but I am sure you can do it!
Problem Child says
Hi ABCD,
He did respond in the evening. I think he’s out of reception a lot of the time. There were a few messages back and forth but it was all very polite, normal conversation. I am expecting at the least a cooling off from him when he gets back, at worst he’ll say it has to end, but then I suppose it does. Part of me wants it to, knows it had to, but the stronger part wants to continue at with the fantasy. I do need the validation, the excitement, but I know I could get that from myself, through exercise, writing, doing good deeds. I am so tired of this!
Bewitched says
Dear Problem Child,
Condolences – work-based LOs are so, so difficult.
Like, I feel that I compartmentalise a bit, so that if I need to send LO a work message, and have him reply to me, that should exist outside any feelings either of us have. TBH, the way we have handled this is that there are are normally others involved and copied in to the message. I get really frustrated when he goes silent in those occasions because its got nothing to do with our feelings.
I simply don’t message him about any non-work related. We are not “friends” because I realise that I can never be that for him in an honest way. I feel too attracted to be sufficiently dispassionate.
“Part of me wants it to, knows it had to, but the stronger part wants to continue at with the fantasy. I do need the validation, the excitement, but I know I could get that from myself, through exercise, writing, doing good deeds. I am so tired of this!”
You are very self aware. You know that what you need is a new fantasy. Create a new one. Ideally one that involves a brighter, better version of you.
Sending many best wishes and I hope it all goes really well for you.
Problem Child says
Thank you Bewitched,
Yes, this is where I felt I was a few days ago, in a place where I could dare to dream of other interests! I’m not sure what happened. I needed (almost!) to message him on a practical level, and I let that slip into the romance again. I struggle to compartmentalise a lot of the time, I think that’s why I’d be no good at an affair! It creeps into everything.
I am very self-aware, perhaps too much, in that I study myself too much, rather than just accepting parts of myself. The trouble is I don’t necessarily act on the awareness, I only imagine myself doing so!
Yes, I want the high again, the excitement of something forbidden. The thrill of knowing I turn someone on, and just leaving it at that, happy in that knowledge. I suppose it’s a lot to do with a lack of self-love.
It sounds like you are doing really well, I hope it continues. I am trying to bring him down off the pedestal but he keepats climbing back up! When he gets back I will be listening for the sound of him slurping his tea, thinking that he can’t offer me the comfortable lifestyle that SO does (very materialistic but it might just work!) and mentally picking faults with him 🙏🏼
Jim says
Lovisa – remember I gave you that stoic quote from Seneca yesterday ? I’ve seen another one today , I’m starting to think these guys “solved” the issue of unrequited love/ failed L.E’s centuries ago : “Sometimes when the Universe says “no” , it’s a hidden “yes” to something better : after all , after every sunset , comes a brighter sunrise”
Jim says
Morning Snowphoenix – thanks for your replies , you write very good English for a second language speaker ! I’ve not read / seen Lolita but I’m familiar with the premise . Wasn’t she like 15/16 , so pubescent ? This LO isn’t . As I’ve mentioned before I think the “attraction” is related to me being adopted and never having had my own family . I should mention here that I haven’t always been single , I was married for a few years but it fell apart after a few years of living together . She moved away and had kids with someone else . I think that despite my apparent stoicism about being single , I might be subconsciously yearning for a family of my own , and I’m projecting my paternal yearning onto this girl . Why her and no other I don’t know , as I said to Lovisa , something just “clicked” in me the second I saw her eyes , it was like I already knew her . I think I’m in an ongoing depression/mid-life crisis and this isn’t making things any better . As I remarked to my sister a few months ago “my biggest regret is knowing that no-one will ever call me daddy”
Bewitched says
Dear Jim,
I just wanted to respond quickly to this –
“I think that despite my apparent stoicism about being single , I might be subconsciously yearning for a family of my own , and I’m projecting my paternal yearning onto this girl . Why her and no other I don’t know , as I said to Lovisa , something just “clicked” in me the second I saw her eyes , it was like I already knew her. ”
This sounds like a classic ‘glimmer’ situation. Many posters and Blogs deal with progression of limerence from the ‘glimmer’ phase to ‘crystallisation’. These phases are inevitably followed by ‘deterioration’, which is when we come to accept that barriers prevent further developing the relationship. It sounds as though you may not have reached ‘crystallisation’ yet? If not, there is a window of opportunity of making all of this easier on yourself by pulling back now and actively trying to stop thinking about her. It can be difficult to drag yourself out once you’ve gone down the downward slope of limerence, as it were.
As you don’t see much of this girl, you may be able to reverse it quickly. That would be something all of us here would be hopeful for.
Jim says
Morning Bewitched (or evening depending on where you are) . Thanks for the reply . I’m not sure if I haven’t already gone into the crystallisation stage already . Cards on the table here I went through a stage of 6 months when I didn’t see her at all as I no longer worked in a location where I passed her bus stop every morning . I still thought about her occasionally but i knew where she got the bus back from school so a few weeks ago I swerved by there on the way back from the gym on the off chance I’d see her again , and lo and behold after a few minutes she turned up and looked at me and smiled . Let me make it clear right now , that I’ve heeded the warnings on limerence I’ve read elsewhere , that you shouldn’t read into situations things that aren’t there . It was just nice to see her smile as she always looks nervous & anxious , which is another thing that brings out that “paternal” side in me . I can see now why having an L.O is just like a drug addiction , you get that “dopamine hit” and you end up needing more every time , which is why I need to nip this in the bud now , as we all know drug addiction inevitably leads to depression , destruction and nothing good
Bewitched says
Dear Jim,
I am sorry that your LE has progressed a bit. But, you were able to do NC for 6 months before you had a ‘lapse’. This is something to work on. You must go NC again. I urge you to do this, even if its very difficult. You possibly are already, are you?
“I can see now why having an L.O is just like a drug addiction”
Yes. One other thing common thing is the altered mental state. Justifying things you know are wrong (on some level) to yourself; feeling a connection that isn’t there in reality; blowing up your life for something imaginary….
The very complicating factor here is your LO’s age because no-one will believe you when you say your intentions are good. The court of public opinion is not about nuance and psychology. Its cruel, simplistic, and devastating.
Another thing is that she herself will be going through a steep mental development at that age. My daughter is that age and the mental maturity is changing by the day. Her reactions are unpredictable, to say the least. One day, we feel like a child, the next day, we feel much more grown up. Its a confusing time for all kids. Think of this way – backing off entirely will be good for her. Your brain might not tell you this. Your (altered) brain may tell you that drawing closer will be good for her. But that’s not true. It won’t. It will confuse and probably upset her (despite your best intentions). If it hasn’t already, it will do in future because she is going to wonder what the eye contact and smiles mean. And you cannot control her reaction, only she can do that.
Sorry for dolling out the tough love, Jim. I want you both to stay ‘safe’.
Your stoicism video looks great (I’ve gotten half way through). Its super-helpful!
You can do this. You are already seeking the resources that your executive brain knows will help you. You just need to ride out the chemicals that your limerent brain is feeding off right now.
Keep posting.
All the best
Snowpheonix says
Jim,
I suggest you to watch the 1997 movie, “Lolita” (with Jeremy Irons) if you don’t have time to read original novel of Nabokov, one of rare ESL speaker who writes superbly, better than many native English writers.
“Why her (or him) at first sight” is a rhetorical question, I know no one throughout history has an answer. Genomic/biological drives work in all of us, regardless our upbringing, education, personal experiences, and no one’s conscious mind is aware how they work. So all your “logical” thinking/mind especially during the throe of your LE, is altered. You can’t see it, but all your messages here reveal it.
The Unconscious, made up by our experiences, forgotten memories, cultural impact, infinitely etc., affects all of us in our emotional-mental-psychological department far below the radar of “logical” thinking, particularly limerents’ “altered mind”; therefore, I still don’t buy your declarations/subjective truths…
What is resisted persists! Wish you more inner peace…. 🧘♀️
Jim says
I’ve come across what might be the best video ever about dealing with the end of an L.E , although it’s not specifically aimed at limerents . It’s 20 mins long but you can always break it into halves/thirds . I’m starting to apply some of the points to my current L.E : https://youtu.be/8KYonsyuqlQ?si=DvYiQTrEf8Bk4wWL
Lovisa says
The title of that video caught my attention “How to Detach from People…”
Jim, why would you want to detach from people?
Jim says
Hi again Lov , the video was about detaching from a person , rather than people in general , although probably both scenarios are a good idea every so often , present company excluded obviously !
Lovisa says
Okay Jim, that makes sense. Some of my kids have big attachment problems. I wouldn’t wish a lack of attachment on anyone.
Jim says
Thanks Bewitched – for some odd reason I couldn’t reply directly to you . I’m not sure why I felt the need to see her again , it’s almost like it came out of nowhere and recently it’s been more intense than before . I realise I’m putting myself in a tricky , potentially dangerous situation here . I’m in a position currently where I could probably see her every day if I wanted to , but I need to be sensible , as Lovisa said don’t be “that creepy bus stop guy” . I guess if I’m brutal with myself I need to differentiate between “wants” and “needs” . Do I want to see her everyday ? Of course , isn’t that the whole basis of an L.E ? Do I NEED to , physically ? Obviously not , as the last 6 months proves . Like I mentioned before , although my situation sounds different , I’m also in a preferable situation to a lot of lim’s who are unable to escape from their L.O due to workplace/family/whatever connections . I can walk away with no damage done on either of our parts . I need to start the distancing and “setting emotional limits” as mentioned in that video
why says
One of the things that is rarely mentioned is how to manage LE after a long NC. NC is all good and well for a journey of improvement and, of course, it’s no easy feat. However, since limerence basically is a thing that happens inside our heads, you could say one could keep the fire alive even after years of NC. It’s sickening. My biggest LE lasted a bit more than a decade after NC, despite already having an SO, and then did a weird transference to another LO.
I don’t know what better terms to call these, but some of the things one has to go through after NC are No Lookups or No Looking (into the past, things, songs, memories, etc.). No social media drive-by, no physical location drive-by to places you’ve been with or seen LO, no visiting trinkets or gifts that remind you of LO, diminishing, refraining or not playing songs that remind you of LO or transferring the importance of a song from LO to SO, the list goes on.
This process too, took quite a few years for me. Reading and re-reading Dr. L’s writing, reading LwL community comments and writings in the forum and watching videos from Crappy Childhood Fairy that touch on limerence helped a lot.
Speedwagon says
I relate to this. My previous LE was about a 10 year fade after going NC. The fade spanned meeting my SO, marrying my SO, and about 7 years in of marriage. For a lot of that time the LE was not distressing at all but I still had a lot of thoughts and ruminations of LO. Finally after the 10 year period I was completely past LO and didn’t think much or care much about her. Actual indifference set in.
I then went LE-less for another 10 years, just having a crush here and there, until almost 2 years ago when, BAM, limerence struck hard and fast. I now view myself in a recovery state but I can not go NC so I am fearful of another long and exhausting fade, if I can even manage a fade at all due to not being NC.
Jim says
I actually still have the love letters my first LO sent me 35 years ago . Digging them out caused me to get in touch with her again last year on a certain social media platform , it was very easy as her dad has an extremely unusual Christian name that I’ve never heard anyone else called . She had a different surname so when I messaged her and asked her if she was married , I expected “yes” and details of her kids and happy life . She replied that her husband had died and she’d just kept his name . AWKWARD . I bailed out there and then as I felt guilty for reawakening the memory . Some things are better just left in the past
Lovisa says
Jim, your situation is unique in a lot of ways and what I am about to tell you might not apply to you. I thought my limerence was all in my head and that it didn’t affect other people. I was wrong. I leaked limerent symptoms so much that my SO asked me what was going on between me and my LO. I also leaked symptoms towards my LO and he developed feelings for me. He disclosed his feelings of attraction to me. I didn’t intend for my limerence to become someone else’s problem, but it did. I worry that you might be leaking symptoms more than you realize. I think it is very important that you avoid your LO completely so that you don’t accidentally affect her in some way.
Jim says
Hi Lovisa . Thankfully the sensible advice from people on here including your good self has knocked some sense into my “executive brain” when it was on the verge on being totally wrecked by my “limerent brain” . Prior to finding this place I was on all manor of whimsical flights of fancy and mad ideas . I was actually planning on the best way to introduce myself to her , what questions to ask her to make sure she’s o.k , but some of the comments here have definitely given my head a wobble , and in a good way . It’s funny , I was just watching a youtube video on detaching from people . The summary was “detachment is easy – it’s the CHOICE of detaching that’s the hard part” . It’s hard because you somehow believe your investment in a person/situation is going to pay off , even though you subconciously know it’s not . I’ve had a few addictions in the past but “grew out” of them or just got bored of them , this is so much harder , L.E is a bitch !
Lovisa says
Hi Jim, I’m glad you are making progress. The impulse to “check on LO just to make sure they are okay” is very common. I’m glad you met us instead of following through with your plan. I feel strongly that your LE is best handled through NC.
Jim says
Have a quick look at this video when you get a minute – it’s only 3 minutes long . The top comment is very true , and the SIXTH comment below it is VERY interesting – what do you think ?
https://youtu.be/UnWlRSpNRdk?si=V66WNaSMktHbQoPL
Lovisa says
I like that YouTuber. I think he has a point.
Jim says
Sorry , I’m on a bit of a roll tonight . I was comparing debilitating physical addictions to L.E earlier , but I can see now how L.E is far more addictive than even physical addiction . I’ve had pretty much all of them over the last 30 years , I had a terrible speed addiction in my early 20’s . The difference is , with physical addictions , you eventually “burn out” physically , to the point the body says “right that’s it , I’ve had enough, i’m done” . With an L.E there’s no physical “shut-off point” . Sure ,you might feel a bit “hollow” at points , but soon enough the body is looking for that dopamine hit from seeing your LO again . Drug addiction is primarily physical , although a bit mental as well . L.E addiction is emotional , so it’s far harder to control
Lovisa says
No need to apologize for being on a roll. When I was processing my LE, I posted a lot of comments, too. This place is therapeutic. You have some interesting ideas. I haven’t used drugs, I don’t even drink coffee or alcohol, so I’m naive to some of the stuff you talked about.
Jim says
Good Morning Lovisa ! Hope you’re well . I’m feeling a bit better today , in fact I’ve had a bit of an epiphany . You’ll have to bear with me on this one as it may be a bit long .
I woke early this morning and as usual my thoughts went to you-know-who (“Sarah” as I’ve named her , even though I don’t know her name , she just “looks like” a Sarah) . For the first time ever , Mr “Executive Brain” swung straight into action . Remember I was talking about how L.E is remarkably similar to drug addiction ? The name won’t be familiar to you , you being what some people refer to as “straight edge” , but there was a guy called Allen Carr , who wrote a famous book called “The Easyway To Stop Smoking” , which has helped millions of people quit smoking immediately and with no withdrawal symptoms . Once again , bear with me ..
The book is based on 2 premises . 1) That we’ve been brainwashed to believe that humans are “incomplete” in some way , and 2) That whatever our addiction is “completes” us , when in fact the total opposite is true . Our addiction brings us NO BENEFITS WHATSOEVER , and the actual reverse is true – if we continue indulging in the addiction it can only bring us DESTRUCTION . Once you realise this , you can stop immediately , as long as it’s sunk in that you’re missing nothing and can only expect eventual devastation from your addiction .See how this applies identically to an L.E ? The L.O , at their base , is just a human version of a dangerous drug (hopefully , normally , unintentionally on their part). As applies to my L.E , no-one’s forcing booze down my throat , no-one’s sticking cigarettes in my mouth , and no-one’s forcing me at gunpoint to do a right coming out of the gym and going past that bus stop , when I can just do a left and go straight home. If I decide to continue a destructive addiction , that’s my own (silly) personal choice . My “choice” needs to be “don’t turn right , go home !!”
The 2nd part of my epiphany consisted of doing something I haven’t allowed myself to do the past year, in fact I’ve probably subconsciously been frightened to do this . Looking at the situation from the position of not just a non-lim , but a total stranger . And let’s be honest , it doesn’t look good , despite my benevolent intentions . You subtly alluded to this in your “public opinion” post . A 50 year old bloke semi-stalking a young girl isn’t the best look is it ? It could look downright sinister to a lot of people , and like you said ,they wouldn’t be interested in my past , my altruistic intent towards “Sarah” , they’d just go by what they saw & thought . And looking at it through a mix of a non-lim’s and my OWN eyes , at best it looks needy and admittedly rather pathetic .
As Adam said , you’ve got to put the L.O’s feelings first . A non-reciprocal L.E is basically a state of selfishness , you’re projecting your subliminal wants and needs onto someone else who didn’t ask for them and more than likely wouldn’t be interested , they have their own lives to lead .
So I’ve made the decision to go NC straight away , and I think I also need to depersonalise “Sarah” mentally . This will be the hard part , rather than thinking “I wonder what Sarah’s up to now” , if I can’t get over her straight away , and that’s probably unlikely , I need to just think of her as “she” or “that stranger” . That’s made me feel melancholy just typing it .
Anyway I hope all this hasn’t sent you to sleep . I’m going to take a few days off the gym , I’ve been hitting it too hard lately anyway , and it’ll give me no opportunity to “turn right” coming out of there in the first few days of NC . Take care and have a great day
Bewitched says
Dear Jim,
You seem to making a huge amount of progress in this LE. Congratulations!! Its amazing how perception can change completely in a few short days, isn’t it?
“So I’ve made the decision to go NC straight away , and I think I also need to depersonalise “Sarah” mentally . This will be the hard part , rather than thinking “I wonder what Sarah’s up to now” , if I can’t get over her straight away , and that’s probably unlikely , I need to just think of her as “she” or “that stranger” . That’s made me feel melancholy just typing it . ”
Yes. I relate to the melancholy. In one of Dr L’s posts he refers to this as ‘the death of hope’, or, the end of what you hoped to get from your LO, be that how you thought about yourself, or otherwise. Note – its always about how LO makes us feel about ourselves. In a way, you are in love with your own imagination. Deep, right?
But when you do as Adam said and put your LO first, and realise that this LE of yours is unwanted on her part, and can only do her harm, then I think you can make your peace with it. Why? Because you are a nice person. And you do have her best interests at heart, at least, when you are able to think clearly and rationally about it. The latter is impossible when we are in the ‘limerent haze’ and that’s why posting here is a corrective to skewed limerent judgement. The cool thing is that you are also doing the right thing to keep you safe yourself (for all the reasons you outlined).
One more thing, many blogs have explored how limerence is a wake up call to make changes in our lives. Its a way to get to know your deepest needs and desires. And, hopefully, go about ways of establishing or repairing relationships (safe ones) which fill those needs. So it is not a waste of time. Plenty of us here are grateful it happened to us (maybe not on bad days).
🙂
Sending more strength!
Lovisa says
Good morning Jim! I love your ideas. Yes, it is wise to take yourself out of a tempting situation so that you don’t walk past her bus stop. Nice work!
Adam is correct that we must consider what is best for our LO. I try to do this myself. Both of my LOs are married and I know that the key to their happiness is their relationship with their wife. I never want to interfere with that in any way. To be a little selfish and honest I actually care more about my husband and my marriage than I do about theirs. Just being honest. It’s convenient that the best thing for all of us is stable family relationships so I conduct myself in a way that strengthens those bonds. I remind myself to do the right thing no matter how I feel. That mantra got me through LE3 and I believe I am finished with limerence. Whew!
It sounds like you are on the right path. By the way, I have a habit of overtraining, too. My thing is distance running. I just love it so much.
Have a great day!
ABCD says
@IMHO, thanks for your advice on the pedestal thing, will try it out. I agree with you that “getting to know” LO can be double edged, and can go either way. Reducing daydreaming will definitely help. Hope you feel better.
Bewitched says
Hi ABCD and IMHO,
Though I am doing reasonably well, he comes to my mind unbidden, and I seem to have to eject him constantly. It is pretty exhausting. So I am also going to try to this imaginary trick with my LO. Thanks IMHO!
Like ABCD, I have no interest in devaluing my LO as I think he is lovely. Though he would never work as a life partner, I think, for various reasons (though on some other levels, he is compatible). So I try to keep these incompatible things in my mind. This is not devaluing, just realistic. I am using it to take him off the pedestal.
ABCD, as a matter of interest, why is she on a pedestal, your LO? What is so perfect about her. Why not talk it out? Is it looks, personality? You could write it on a slip of paper*. You might find that putting it into words helps your rational mind to see if your imagination is exaggerating her qualities? I think that most of us are in love with how our LO makes us feel about ourselves….
*and burn it afterwards
Sending all my best
ABCD says
Hi Mila. She is physically very attractive, looks really good. Perhaps that part attracted me, plus the fact that she praised me many times – that probably hooked me as well.
Yes, totally agree with you that LO does make us feel pretty good about ourselves. I get the feeling that I do the same to her.
I will try your method, and let you know how it goes, thanks!
Regarding LO thoughts, they are still there, but the good part is that they do not cause much distress. I just try to think of something else, like work related, or planning my next exercise routine. This has helped.
Mila says
Hi ABCD,
actually it was not me but Bewitched who asked;)
It’s true that it’s important for limerence that they make me feel a certain way- attractive, seen, interesting, trusted, something positive anyway. And at least as important, as you say, that I feel that I can make them feel good.It’s at least true for my LEs.
Also, I seem to get limerent for people I work with and who are very good at what they do.
I knew with all my LOs that I would never leave my SO and that we wouldn’t be compatible in many ways (surely in some, but in less than SO).
With current LO it could work, but I would slowly get a different person because he is compatible with different sides than my SO, and I think, it wouldn’t be good for me.
Like Bewitched, I don’t want to devalue LO, and like you, at the moment it‘s not too difficult to divert thoughts from LO.
ABCD says
Hi Mila, yeah my bad, sorry bewitched. I get your point about being attracted to LO who are good at work. In my case, I can see that I am totally opposite to LO’s SO. I’m glad that you can divert your LO thoughts, if you can navigate this LE without devaluing LO, that’s good too.
Jim says
Just a general post here but I was wondering on something . Does anyone consider this site/forum , a curse & a blessing at the same time ? Here’s why I ask . In my rather long-winded post above I mentioned quitting smoking & drinking . In Allen Carr’s “Easyway” books he states that as soon as you’ve made your mind up to quit your addiction , you just quit it and never ruminate over it again – once you’ve quit smoking you’re immediately a non (not “ex”) smoker , ditto non-drinker . If you ever “regret” quitting , you’re always going to be miserable for something you can’t have .
Now in my short sojourn here , I’ve found it to be a great place to get things off my chest , get some good advice and get some kind of ongoing catharsis . HOWEVER (this is where the “curse” bit comes in) , is there a possibility that some here will never get over their L.E/L.O by continuing to post on here ? Is it somehow used as an excuse to “keep the dream alive” as it were ? With regards to the drug comparison and Allen Carr’s advice , where he says the minute you take your final drink , you’re a “non-drinker” . When you become a non-drinker it probably isn’t the best idea to hang around on ex-alcoholic forums . Because you’re still going to be continuously thinking about drinking , and at some point you might think you’re “missing out” on something and it could be “ahh I’ll have just one then” and it’s back to square one .
Obviously this only applies to people who’ve got out of their L.E , but isn’t there a danger of you going back to them or attempting to re-establish contact by staying on here and talking about them ? If this subject has already been covered in an article please let me know
Lovisa says
There is some truth to what you say, Jim. This sight is not triggering to me. I am over my LEs, but I like this community. Also, have you noticed that the best person to run a support group is a recovering addict? I think there is value in having people in all stages if limerence working together.
Jim says
Thanks @Lovisa (again no reply function) . Thanks for the support . I must confess , I “did a right” out of the gym yesterday and went on an “excursion” to the bus stop , but she wasn’t there . It felt like a punch in the chest , but you know what ? I think it was a “wake up call” to my limerent brain , hence everything seeming to change overnight . It’s like my “executive brain” and limerent brain had a punch-up while I was sleeping , my “exec” shouting “what the Hell are you doing man ?” as he gave limerent brain a sound thrashing ! It’s interesting you mentioning the “limerent haze” where you don’t think rationally , SnowPhoenix has also mentioned that , maybe there’s a weird neurological “rewiring” of some kind that takes place during and after the L.E ?
I’ve been watching a YouTube channel that deals with limerence , called “Crappy Childhood Fairy” , a lovely lady called Anna , and going by what she says, and what most of the comments say under her videos (and the clue is in her channel name) , is that the majority of proper limerent experiences (as opposed to crushes , which they often get confused with) stem back to childhood issues , primarily to parental abuse , abandonment or emotional coldness . This leads me to 100% believe my L.E stems back to my adoption abandonment , and the re-abandonment 30 years later . I think it’s good to realise what the cause is because then you’re halfway to solving the problem , you just need to implement the solution !
Snowpheonix says
Jim,
Many limerents here are fan of “Crappy Childhood Faire”, and her points of views are quite valid to some of us in LwL.
My childhood cptsd was so bad that I semi-consciously projected an ideal surrogate parent to all my LOs, half of them are older or perceived more maturer than me. But due to barriers of all sorts, LO could not reciprocate my deep LONGING for a perfect parent — not a pair-bonding lover (the drive is there, though, which set off Glimmer), “second time over” in an adult-child limerence dynamic. As a result of my ignorance (before finding LwL), I painfully re-experienced traumatic abandonment mélange repeatedly, which even, I believe, triggered my lymphoma nearly 5 years ago (it’s in remission, hopefully for good).
So my question is: how a 13 yrs old kid could ever serve you as an idealized parent, while she still needs supportive, loving parenting? Don’t you see that you’re heading over to more abandonment melanges, since she, or any other teenage boy/girl, could NEVER function as a “parent” of adult man/woman? Take Nisor’s advice, find an effective therapist, digging in your subconscious terrain, no shame there!
In “Lolita”, Prof Humbert had a budding romance (#1) at age of 15 or 16 with a teenage girl (13 or 14) during a summer vacation at a beach resort. Then shortly afterward, the girl died of an illness, which hurt Humbert beyond imagination. Later, he got married and divorced, relocating around, professionally successful, but always unfulfilled. After encountering Lolita, who instantly, subconsciously reminds him his first beloved teenage girl at the beach, not in looks but in manners, in her innocece, he instantly hooked into this fetish, helpless limerence for Lolita in an unconscious attempt to fulfill, second time over, his teenage’s tragic romance dream.
Now, look at your bus romance when you’re 16 and the other girl 18, and the current girl at bus stop! They don’t have to look alike, but their close age, the same setting, your romance of 16, and current burried, denied subconscious desires… are exactly parallel to that of “Lolita”. Anyone here could see IT!
You can deny it with all your mighty, “logic”, but longing pains of your limerence falls only upon inside you, and it can only be honestly, clearly owned, treated, hopefully removed by YOUR SELF, perhaps with a profession help, since your mind is so muddled now…
My INFP sister Marcia is so instinctually right….
Jim says
Hi again Snow , sorry for replying so late . I think there’s a bit of confusion here , I don’t think my LO is serving as a replacement parent (obviously , because of the age) but as a replacement daughter , hence my protectiveness . I’ve mentioned before here how despite my being single , I think subconsciously I yearn for a family as I was abandoned myself at birth . One of Crappies beliefs is that limerence ties back to childhood abandonment . Her other main belief is that limerence thrives in people who are lonely , which is exactly where I am now . Now you mention it in more detail , I can see the comparison with the “Lolita” story , and maybe – more indirectly – with the film “American Beauty” with Kevin Spacey . However in both stories I believe the female protagonist was pubescent and flirtatious , and the male protagonist was looking for reciprocated romantic love , which I’m not , at least on a conscious level . My L.E is on the familial level , not the romantic , I see why this may hard to believe due to decades of anti-male feminist brainwashing , seeing every male as a potential abuser , but sometimes the truth is actually the truth , and males can actually be “white knights” without any devious motives (see Adams earlier story about being protective over his wife’s cousins daughter)
Snowpheonix says
Jim,
I’m NOT confused here at all! You think this or think that, it’s all your conscious, muddled mind bubbling all over places, topped with your resentment against feminism movements in the West, which I hope could spread out to the East more and sooner! You do not acknowledge or work with your own Unconscious… which would lead to your own sufferings.
You have two “stories” here:
1. Your abandonment by your mother at birth, in which you had not even a subconscious idea about what abandonment is or what a family is supposed to be like — your biological mother was single, so it would be a half family if she kept you.
Your adopted parents sound like decent folks raising you and another adopted sister from your birth. One could not help assume in this scenario that you’ve obtained solid notions what a good enough family is like. Still, you did not know what is like being a parent, without ever having one or losing a child; so how could you long for deeply being a parent of a stranger? Don’t BS saying that you know how your loving adopted parents felt like while raising you guys. Ask Adam, LE or anyone else here how they felt before and after having their own or adopted children. Experiences and their consequential feelings can only come from actively doing. It’s like men would NEVER know what woman feels like while giving a biological birth!
The NOTION of being rejected at birth and then an actual rejection by your birth mother 30 years later could trigger some subconscious abandonment melange. Then, based on “Crappy Childhood Fiery”, one would (sub)consciously seek another parent-child dynamic that could make up for the first “disastrous” one, in which you’d be the “child” not the “parent”. In your case, you’d seek an older or maturer woman, ideally mothering you (despite you’ve already had adopted parents and a wife once).
2. The second story here: the parallel background of your first romance to that of Prof. Humbert, which is fairly common in men and women considering their first LO, mostly during puberty. The fact that this girl is in the age bracket of your first “love”, (her parents are probably younger than you), strongly indicates limerence on her is not caused by your familial abandonment issue, but your loneliness, lack of a romantic partner, and denied, instinctual/biological drive for romance/pair-bonding, similar to the first one you encountered. Mark my word — your current mental age in limerence is 16! (Mine was 6 during my limerence treating LO as a surrogate parent)
So for the natural male hormone surges or instinctual drives, you blame on natural teenagers’ “pubescent and flirtatious” manner, like many rapists or molesters have claimed? How do you know it’s not male’s hormonal-driven eyes perceiving teenagers “pubescent and flirtatious”? Again I did not grow up in the West, but I still saw and see every male is potential abuser, or sex predator — the “cruelty” of the nature.
White knight or not is demonstrated in men’s behaviors, thoughts, and emotions that probably excludes “addictive” Limerence. Maybe some legendary white knights also harbored but buried their limerence, like that Lancelot!
Now deep inside, you may subconsciously know where you fit in, but do not dare to admit, which is understandable…. But then, you’ll never come out of this torturous limerence.
I won’t read anything further from you, so please do NOT address me again in your post. Thanks.
Lovisa says
Holy crap, Snow, do you really believe this?
“… but I still saw and see every male is potential abuser, or sex predator…”
Please tell me that I misunderstood your statement. I can assure you that most men are not predators or abusers. Sheesh! Let’s not insult half of the human population.
I’m reminded of my neighbor’s black lab. I know that dog could kill me if it wanted to. But I also know the dog is kind and it has no desire to kill anyone.
Most men are kind and good. They want to take care of others not hurt them.
Seriously, do you live with that mindset? Going out in public would be so frightening if I didn’t see men as good hearted.
I’m worried about you, Snowphoenix.
Snowpheonix says
Lovisa,
I forgot to add one condition: if laws, esthetics, morality, do not exist and if given a free, “safe to them” chance, I saw and see every male (some females, too) as a POTENTIAL physical abuser or sexual predator… Just look at those catholic church scandals all over places; they have more moral rules to follow than us laymen…. I had a male college student sitting in the back, half of my age, tying to masturbate in my class…
I have more male friends than female ones; no need to worry about me, busy sister! Many others need your helping hands….
Lovisa says
Thanks for your reply, Snowphoenix. It makes sense, but we disagree on this subject. I see most people as potential friends until they prove me wrong.
Ewe! I’m sorry you had such a yucky experience with one of your students. I suspect it was unusual.
Snowpheonix says
Lovisa,
Are you comparing dogs’ loving nature — not to kill human beings, to the (sub)conscious, instinctual pair-bonding drive of men/women in limerence?
“If you want to take revenge on a man, send him a beautiful woman.” — Arabic Proverb
Snowpheonix says
Lovisa,
It was really disgusting to me! Yet I did not report him, just ignored him, since I understand a biological nature, his girlfriend and other students were also sitting in the classroom each time he tried. In his final semester, he nervously came to my office hour asking for A-! BS, I gave him B for the final, because that’s what he deserved to get without putting much efforts in his study!
Lovisa says
Snowphoenix, I’m surprised that you didn’t report your student.
To answer your question,
“ Are you comparing dogs’ loving nature — not to kill human beings, to the (sub)conscious, instinctual pair-bonding drive of men/women in limerence?”
No. I’m saying that a creature can be capable of harming others, but usually their nature prevents them from acting on it.
I am a small woman and most men are stronger than me. Most of them are instinctively protective of me, too. Of course they are physically able to overpower me, but they don’t want to. So I don’t worry about it.
I should acknowledge that I live in a nice community. One of my running friends says that where he is from, it’s not safe to go running. Let me tell you about my friend. He won the MMA championship in our state this year. He is very capable of defending himself. One day we were running on a pedestrian trail near my house. It was just the two of us. He said, “You know we couldn’t do this where I’m from.” I asked, “Oh, you don’t have nice trails?” He said, “It’s not because of bad trails, it’s not safe to go running.” I asked, “You mean I couldn’t go running alone?” He said, “Of course you couldn’t, but even if we were together, we wouldn’t be safe.” I was very surprised. I asked, “Why couldn’t you go running?” He said that he would get jumped. So I guess I should acknowledge that I live in a very safe place and the people I meet treat me with respect and kindness. I guess not everywhere is like that.
Anyway, when you said that all men are predators or abusive, that made me angry. I felt defensive of Adam, Lost in Space, Speedwagon… many of our community members. I think they are good men and they don’t deserve to be disrespected like that. Then I felt worried about you. I thought, “Oh my, does she constantly feel threatened? That would be awful.” Anyway, I’m glad you addressed it with me.
Snowpheonix says
@Louisa,
“Anyway, when you said that all men are predators or abusive, that made me angry.”
I have never said, “ all men are predators or abusive…” Your misinterpretation or misquote made you angry.
Should I, an ESL speaker, tell the discrepancy between the phrases, “potential is” and “is/are”? Should I clarify the fundamental differences between a theory UNDER certain necessary conditions and applying such a theory specifically in a reality (LwL) WITHOUT aforementioned, necessary conditions?
Your kind, cheerful heart and willing hands to help suffering souls here are always touching… please continue!
Snowpheonix says
Lovisa,
Last night, I wrote a much longer reply here to you, but pressed the wrong button (“paste” instead of “copy”) right before posting, so it got deleted. I didn’t have energy to retype it. But I want to add one important point from that lost post:
“ All females are Potential physically abusive and sexually predatory if given free, “safe” chances, if no laws, religions/ethics, moralities, social rules, etc. existing to restrict or punish them. Whether human natures are innately good or bad has been debates of philosophers throughout history, topped with Darwin’s “Big fish eat small fish” theory. One is free to choose whichever side to stand by…
Besides having heard and witnessed some atrocious deeds acted by other females both in COO and here, I endured my own birth mother’s emotional ignorance, physical and verbal abuses — she was a successful, respected, popular surgenon who literally saved lives… but with covert classical narcissist’s traits at home….
Guess what, I have to take care of her regularly nowadays in her old age…
Your small, amicable community could hardly represent the rest of the world, not even the State you live in.
Snowpheonix says
Lovisa,
I keep forgetting the important words/phrases used in last night post to you:
“All females, myself included (😍oh those delicious innocent eyes, rosy cheek, tender skin of 16 yrs boys)… is anyone watching 😘”
Adam says
I don’t think the potentiality to be abusive or a predator is mutually exclusive or even skewed by either of the two genders. Just because you can’t see the turmoil of a man being manipulated by
a woman gatekeeping intimacy or “accidentally” getting pregnant so as to secure a meal ticket like you can a woman’s black eye doesn’t mean one gender has more potential for evil. Evil resides in us all and it’s our choice to let it out or to contain for the good of ourselves and humanity.
That’s the most I am going to say, as this subject can quite easily degrade from conversation to argument. And I don’t wish to put any undue drama on Dr L and his blog.
Snowpheonix says
Adam,
“I don’t think the potentiality to be abusive or a predator is mutually exclusive or even skewed by either of the two genders.”
Absolutely, there is no mutual exclusivity between genders in terms of potential abusive acts. Nothing indicates or predicts one gender has more potential for acting evil; a stronger hand can use fists, a weaker one with modern tools.
“Evil resides in us all and it’s our choice to let it out or to contain for the good of ourselves and humanity.”
That’s my points, potentials for evil acts are within us (I’m not a Christian, having less moral rules), but some by choice/free will, some by fear of legal or ethical punishment, do not actualize such potentiality while acknowledging its existence, like you just did!
Hope all with you is getting better and better! 🙏
Lovisa says
Snowphoenix, I appreciate that you are sharing your perspective. Your English as a second language is very impressive. I didn’t realize you weren’t a native English speaker. It sounds like you are an academic. I suspect you think in grander terms than I do. It’s hard for me to understand your deeply thought out comments sometimes, but I appreciate them.
I couldn’t tell if you were criticizing Christianity in your post. I suspect you weren’t, but it kind of sounded like you were. I hope not because Christianity has a lot to offer society. It would be unfortunate if you missed out on at least having some exposure to Christian values.
I feel sympathy for you that you typed out a well thought out post and then lost it. That has happened to me many times and it is frustrating. Thank you for retyping the most important part.
I admire you for holding your ground about this controversial subject. I understand that humans are capable of unthinkable acts. I rarely experience malice from other people. Usually if someone does something that I don’t like, it’s due to naivety or they might be in a bad mood. I think most people are usually good intentioned most of the time.
Ewe about the 16-year-old boys. I can’t relate to your attraction to them. I think they smell bad and have no depth. I like 40 to 55 year old men. They are my weakness. If a man is young enough to be my son, I see him as a child and I kind of want to parent him.
I wish I could leave a better response but I’m late for an appointment.
Snowpheonix says
Hi Lovisa,
Thank you for your sincere complements and sweet carings.
As you know, liberal colleges here are very PC, and we have to think and speak with well-around considerations, not going extremes or biases in either positive or negative directions. Discussions and debates in theory vs. in reality in all subjects become a routine or habit, which helps me further improve my English and critical thinking. So I enjoy them a great deal. Do you remember those long, heated debates between me and Sammy back in October?
“I couldn’t tell if you were criticizing Christianity in your post.”
Oh, no! I was not criticizing but praising Christianity, because I personally have less moral values/rules than model Christians. Remember I said that “others’/LOs’ SO is not my responsibility?” I still stand on my post here.
“I understand that humans are capable of unthinkable acts.”
We are on the same page.
“I think most people are usually good intentioned most of the time.”
Yes, I agree in most areas of humanities. But when it comes to that absolutely-hard-to-control biological urges, especially sexual drive, my distrust goes to maximum. Surveying the human history with my own experiences and without being a Freudian theory follower, I know my distrust is grounded, which I will hold to the end of my life. I have solid, trustworthy (in their actions) male friends, fortunately.
Inside a mind? I stand by Dr L’s side — no thought crimes! That’s why a honest revealing of one’s true mind, like that of Adam here, with its infinite colors and changing shades is heroic, admirable, touchingly human…. I am not as brave as him to tell this “ghost” land about all my inner thoughts…
If you remember our banters with Marcia a while ago about our favorite types of men, you’d know my comments on 16 yrs old is a joke! But when I visited Europe during six times, some Italian boys’ faces, as well as French women’s, did capture my attention. I appreciate beauties of all sorts, but have little interest in owning or possessing them.
Lovisa says
It’s okay that you went right yesterday, Jim. It was a small setback, but no harm was done. I noticed that some of our posters think your limerence could have a sexual undercurrent. Snowphoenix’s theory is quite interesting, but difficult for me to understand. I think it’s possible that your LE is exactly what you think it is, you regret your lack of fatherhood. Let’s work from that theory. What can you do about it? What do you want to do about it?
frederico says
Jim
I am one of those people you mention who has probably been following this site for rather longer than I should have been. Your experience has drawn me back into commenting.
I have been limerent for someone who is thirty years younger than me (I am ancient!) for four years but I have finally realised that enough is enough and I have now cut all ties. Finished! With hindsight, I could have been tougher and ended things sooner. Being tough is not always so easy. The overall experience has caused me the deepest emotional pain of my life.
Anyway my point is that you have probably identified some sage advice here over recent days. Lovisa, Bewitched, Adam, Mila…. these, and one or two others, are helpful kind, balanced, altruistic people whom I got to know when I was suffering the raw effects of limerence myself. Lovisa is usually spot on.
NC – no contact – really is the way to go and it does get better. I think that’s important for you.
Personally I have grown to loathe the blanket cliché of “purposeful living” partly because I’m a bit old. I think that the concepts of distraction and keeping busy are more manageable.
Oh, and therapy… I have noticed over the years that opinions are divided. I think it may be more of an American resort than a British one. I reckon it’s perfectly possible to recover from limerence without it but that depends on the individual.
I think that’s everything….
f
Mila says
Hi Frederico,
Good to hear from you!
How are you?
I feel a bit bad because I missed most of Jim’s posts and don’t have the time to catch up. Just hope that the other dear limerents can help. I don‘t feel much of a help at the moment anyway. I manage well with my LE in terms of forcing it to end, but it feels a little bit of killing a living thing.(a living being? Sorry for my English.)
Did you ever send your LO a Christmas message?
I remember you composing it in September…
Lovisa says
Frederico, I was so glad to see your name in the recent comments section. Thanks for coming out of hiding. I hoped you would talk to our new friend about his longing to be called “Daddy.” Will you address it, too? I think Jim is 50 years old, and has been married in the past, but never had children.
Thank you for your kind words. I’m happy to hear that you are sticking to your NC goal.
Imho says
Hi all,
I have refrained from giving input to Jim’s issues thus far as felt uncomfortable about the situation and indeed I’m (we) are not professionals for such a situation involving a potentially vulnerable juvenile, there I said it.
Two points I hope adds something:
1. I feel that Jim/ others in such a place MUST engage with humanity more beyond work/gym. Involve in outdoor clubs, community things, volunteer etc. I know easier said than done, especially introverted personalities, but there are so many things to tap into these days to distract , keep busy and get new joy/direction.
2. Long-timers who have come through LEs who still stay part of the community bring a lot of great insight and knowledge, empathy and wisdom. For them I say thank you !
Lovisa is example of continuing to support newbies first facing limerence and is a leading ambassador but is no longer wallowing in the whole limerence. Frederico chooses to come and go, and always highly valued when we see him. Some others choose to disengage when they know it’s right to do so.
Summer was my angel, who has left and I will always be thankful to.
ABCD says
Hi Mila. As Bewitched said, work based LOs are very hard to tackle, as one really cannot go NC. I can understand when you say a part of you wants the fantasy to continue, this is because the fantasy makes us feel very euphoric, I have experienced it. However, the lows are quick to follow, and fantasy path does not end well. Wish you tonnes of strength as you go through this. Try to explore other paths to happiness.
Mila says
Hi ABCD,
again it’s not me who spoke about the fantasy;) but I respond nonetheless because I also feel a bit of regret that the relationship to LO cools down now and this time it’s really my doing.
I don’t initiate chats, I answer his texts always a bit belated but friendly etc.
I guess he feels a bit neglected now, and maybe he will stop texting, and I can imagine too well how he might feel because I know how I would feel if he would cool down like this..
It breaks my heart a little, but then, I don’t really know if he feels that way! Could be that he doesn’t notice anything, could be that he’s a bit stung but never could suffer like I would suffer… could be that he is over his limerence like me, could be he was never limerent at all…
I should stop making my own film out of this and presume feelings on his side (limerence, pain, whatever).
Thanks for rooting for me always, ABCD !
ABCD says
Oops, sorry Mila. I seem to get lost in the chain of messages.
From my experience, I can say that my LE prolonged itself, as I seemed to be encouraging it in a way, by perhaps not acting strongly enough in my mind. Perhaps, I was enjoying the highs too much, boy, did they feel good. However, with the passage of time, helped by the NC, I realised that I need to take more active steps in terms of not encouraging LE, starting with my mind. Do I feel sadness due to diminishing LE – you bet, but one takes it in one’s stride. I am liking the more stable feeling as compared to the roller coaster of highs and lows.
If both of you are limerent for each other, both of you would feel sad by reduced contact, this is natural.
“It breaks my heart a little, but then, I don’t really know if he feels that way! Could be that he doesn’t notice anything, could be that he’s a bit stung but never could suffer like I would suffer… could be that he is over his limerence like me, could be he was never limerent at all…
I should stop making my own film out of this and presume feelings on his side (limerence, pain, whatever)”.
This comment is bang on. Most of our conclusions are made by us in our heads, they may be far different from reality. Our super active limerent mind at work!
I forgot – are you going to meet LO f2f anytime soon? How do you feel about that upcoming interaction? Cheers.
Mila says
Hi ABCD,
on Sunday he‘ll
come over with his kid for dinner. That’s actually a good thing because it reinforces the friendzone instead limerence since my SO and family are there.
Also, he kind of invited himself again which is a slightly annoying trait of him (he passively forces me to invite him since he wants to meet but doesn’t speak out an invitation, so either we meet outside somewhere or I invite him. With kids it’s more convenient to meet at home, so we invite him. Normally it’s not a big deal, but I try to keep note of these little things to keep him off the pedestal.)
I don’t feel much excitement or dread this time. The last times he was either more lovelier than I expected, or less. Since my expectations are low now there’s the danger of being surprised by his being lovely again, but now I‘m aware of that danger. I think, I just have to consciously keep tight to the frame of mind that he’s a friend and nothing more.
„ I am liking the more stable feeling as compared to the roller coaster of highs and lows.“
Exactly. I think at some point it just gets too much for us and we are tired from it, and that’s the best moment to make the effort to pull out of it.
frederico says
Mila! JANUARY 17, 2024 AT 10:50 PM
Thank you for remembering and for asking that question. I have been following your posts. It still amazes me that we all seem to be dealing with close variations of the same issues.
This is the honest response to your question. Yes, I hand wrote a chatty letter and I put it in the Christmas card which I sent to LO and his SO. I also sent a small present to their gorgeous little girl because I became so fond of her. On Christmas Day I received a polite, friendly, brief text thanking me for the gift. I wrote a reply which was a very much toned-down version of the note which I had drafted.
I sent the reply, which gently explained how it felt to suddenly be ghosted without any explanation after such a close friendship. I think that, bearing in mind his erstwhile affectionate behaviour, it was justified. I ended up saying that I understood how sometimes we just have to move on.
This was kind of unconventional but it seems to have given me clarity and closure. I am older, as you know, and I should have shown more emotional maturity. Nevertheless, I think it’s important for my LO to know what I told him in case he is ever in the same situation again. I think I have now experienced “The Death Of Hope” and I helped it along somewhat. It still hurts but I can feel the whole episode fading. Four years is a long time.
I hope that somehow your limerence will fade also.
frederico says
Lovisa
Thank you. Yes, a friend of mine pointed out two years ago that there might be a “Dad” thing going on because of the affectionate messages I was getting. Unfortunately I was too hopelessly infatuated to see the danger signs. I enjoyed the messages.
I am not sure that I can be helpful to Jim in this regard (my LO is now forty) but I wish that I had been more circumspect and more aware of what was happening. This could have saved a lot of the pain experienced by me and, most probably, my LO. Then there is the question of any possible unease and irritation caused to his SO.
Lovisa says
Thanks for the follow up, Frederico! Interesting that your friend wondered if it was a dad thing. I actually didn’t make the mental comparison between your LO and Jim’s. I wondered if you went through a similar sadness in your fifties because you hadn’t become a father. Obviously, I cannot relate because I have 5 kids and I am in my forties. Did you ever feel sad about not having kids? If I’m getting too personal, I am sorry and please don’t answer.
frederico says
Ah, yes, Lovisa, I do feel sad that I do not have children and grandchildren.
Mila says
Hi Frederico,
that sounds good. I guess knowing that you‘ve spoken your mind in a not aggressive way and that he knows now what you wanted him to know, sets your mind at rest.
In my early twenties I had a stretch of depression (I’d call it that in hindsight)and obsession with an ex boyfriend (we tried it for a few weeks only, and it didn’t work at all, he ended it and I fell down a giant hole, so to say). I remember writing two letters speaking my mind. The first was still written with expectations how he would react etc, and that didn’t go well. He didn’t react the way I wanted , I was hurt etc.
The second I wrote only for myself. It was actually a belated statement of my past feelings for him, if I remember rightly. I didn’t expect him to answer (he just answered „thank you“) and somehow this letter was the closure I needed.
I don’t think
1. you should have been more mature. We are as we are, we go through things and learn, and feelings for other people are a vast area where we all are sometimes lost, no matter the age. I think you are very mature in that you always consider the feelings and situation of the other side, something that many people are not really capable of.
2. that you should expect him to learn something out of this. Maybe he does, maybe not. He‘s in his own world of emotions and experiences, and your story might look completely different in his mind, but that doesn’t matter so much. What matters is that you spoke in a way that makes you feel better, and can move on now.
I already feel better in my limerence, thanks.
It’s a journey, but I will manage..
Bewitched says
Dear Frederico,
Its lovely to hear from you.
I too was wondering how you had fared over Christmas. I remembered that you planned a card.
“I sent the reply, which gently explained how it felt to suddenly be ghosted without any explanation after such a close friendship. I think that, bearing in mind his erstwhile affectionate behaviour, it was justified. I ended up saying that I understood how sometimes we just have to move on.”
Frederico, this sounds very healthy to me. Such a message may indeed feel like ‘The Death of Hope’ as it is putting your cards on the table about the hurt you felt. We sometimes don’t want to upset LO by telling them how they negatively affected us. Often, that is wise because we limerents can blow things out of proportion and feel very differently a few days later, after we have calmed down. But your case involved a ghosting, so an honest, sincere and authentic human reaction to suddenly losing the closeness that grew up between ye (also losing touch with his little girl and SO) is a normal reaction and not part of the limerent haze. That would be a really big deal for anyone to deal with – whether they were limerent or not. It is obvious from your posts that you would never have written in a way that imposed yourself unfairly. I am glad that you can think of it as drawing a line under the unresolved issues (in your mind). What LO makes of it is totally out if your control, so better not even ‘go there’.
No doubt, you were reading LwL posts from some of the rest of us, including on Christmas Day (yikes). Yes, we were all struggling with the heightened emotions of the season. I am so glad that you navigated it in a healthy way to allow you to move on.
Sending you all the best, hope you are doing really well. Its a tough time of year but Spring is only around the corner….
frederico says
Thank you very much, Bewitched, for your kind and helpful post.
Adam says
“(also losing touch with his little girl and SO)”
I remember Miss Lovisa telling me after the stories I told her of my limerence that I wasn’t just mourning her but also her daughter who I grew to have a fatherly rapport with. I always wanted a daughter and have lived vicariously through many “daughters” from members of my wife’s family to her daughter. The time the two of them played a prank on me at work will always be a fond memory limerence or not.
frederico says
I keep coming back to this today, Adam, because I think it is a beautiful and thoughtful observation.
Wishing you all the very best, as usual.
frederico
ABCD says
Hi Frederico. Good for you for taking that decisive step, I am sure it will help you significantly in your LE. Good luck!
Mila says
Imho,
how do you feel now? Was it a good thing, this phone conversation?
I‘m not so good speaking at the phone.
Was it easy and warm or more stilted and superficial?
I ate sweets yesterday evening because work was so hard. I know, I know.
All the best for you, I hope this call didn’t set you back.
Jim says
Wow , it got busy all of a sudden here while I wasn’t looking . @Lovisa , you’ve kind of been my best friend/guardian angel on here so I’ll reply to you first . Yes it is frustrating (if not downright insulting) that some here think there’s a sexual undertone to it , particularly one person who seems to be a raving misandrist with an axe to grind against men . They basically admitted it when they said they “see all men as potential predators” . Amazing . There are just as many female child abusers out there as men , but I’ve never seen all women as potential predators . What an odd mindset , but then I guess a site like this is bound to pull all sorts in . I’ve added a new tool to my “limerence toolbox” today – I was watching a Childhood Fairy youtube video earlier and she said something that I’ve written down on paper and put on the wall above my desk here – ‘Limerence is an escape into fantasy , that’s all it is” . I’m going to repeat that mantra every morning until it sinks in ! As for your question about what I’m going to do about my childless situation . I don’t think there’s anything I can do about it , outside of a miracle coming into my life I think I’ll just have to resign myself to the inevitable , and get used to saying the serenity prayer regularly .
@Frederico . Many thanks for “coming out of retirement” to comment , and it’s interesting to hear you had a similar L.E with regard to a big age gap . It appears limerence has no age boundaries , but in situations like mine it has to be handled far more delicately than the usual “i’ve got feelings for my work colleague” situation . I think I might write to that Crappy Childhood Fairy lady , Anna , about my unique situation . “Personally I have grown to loathe the blanket cliché of “purposeful living” partly because I’m a bit old. I think that the concepts of distraction and keeping busy are more manageable.” Agreed , and also this ties in with what IMHO advised about keeping as busy as possible . One old quote that I’ve come to appreciate more as I get older is “most men live lives of quiet desperation” . I think this is compounded if you haven’t got children . Sometimes i find myself asking the question “is this all there is ? What have I got to live for ?” .
@IMHO , thanks for your comment . As I mentioned above to F , your advice on keeping as busy as possible is very sage . As i mentioned earlier , going to the gym nearly everyday is all well and good , and it’s very important at my age to invest in my future health , but I still have to come home to an empty place , and the “four walls” can be stultifying if you’ve got nothing to occupy you , especially at this time of year (winter in the Northern Hemisphere) . I might look into joining a few other online communities , at least until Spring when everyone starts getting out & about again . I’m looking into some businesses I might be able to start . I’ve been looking into this “F.I.R.E” theory , “Financially Independent Retire Early” . To be honest I’m in a bad situation financially at the moment and I’ve got to look to the future as it draws in quicker and quicker . I think my financial situation might also be an input to my L.E , as Childhood Fairy remarked , L.E’s are “an escape into fantasy” to take you out of your bitter reality for a while .
ABCD says
Hi Problem Child. Sorry I could see the reply link to your message, so I am reproducing it here:
–
Hi ABCD,
He did respond in the evening. I think he’s out of reception a lot of the time. There were a few messages back and forth but it was all very polite, normal conversation. I am expecting at the least a cooling off from him when he gets back, at worst he’ll say it has to end, but then I suppose it does. Part of me wants it to, knows it had to, but the stronger part wants to continue at with the fantasy. I do need the validation, the excitement, but I know I could get that from myself, through exercise, writing, doing good deeds. I am so tired of this!
–
As I was mentioning to Mila, I have now started to actively take steps to reduce my LE intensity, whereas I was simply not doing that sometime back, the NC helped no doubt. The excitement and rush felt really really good, though. I guess like you, I was getting exhausted from the whole LE, it really took its toll. I hope that you do better, and taste the freedom very soon. Good luck!
Problem Child says
Hi ABCD,
Thanks for the message. You’re absolutely right, I’m not putting the effort in, and that’s because it’s easier not to. The alternating highs and lows still outweigh the crashing rock bottom of no contact, or limited contact. And I had two weeks to sort this out which I’ve wasted! But I’m not a lost cause yet. I shouldn’t, but I want to wait and see what happens when he returns – how I feel, how he reacts to me, what is said between us, though I still intend not to bring up the situation, if only because I don’t want to appear needy. Silly games really…
I wish you success with your proactive steps, I hope the road to freedom isn’t too long!
Mila says
„ though I still intend not to bring up the situation, if only because I don’t want to appear needy. Silly games really…“
Wait, hadn’t you decided to mend things with SO and try to shut down this LE? Maybe I missed something.
In any case, I would just wait now and see how it feels when he is back. No matter what you feel, don’t rush into anything. Think twice before telling him it’s over or telling him you need to talk or anything. Promise?:)
I wish you peace of mind and clear judgement for the next time!
Nisor says
Problem Child hi,
I think it’s fair you give yourself a grace period to see what happens when LO returns. If he behaves distant and unengaged , you make your move to totally dismantle the camp and move on. Perhaps, he gives you the opportunity to bring closure to this situation by having the conversation you so badly crave for…or you initiate it. Whichever comes first. But do not delay it. It’s a heart wrenching time for you, we understand very well and support you on whatever you do.
A tight bear hug for strength and support.
Problem Child says
Hi Mila and Nisor,
Yes I had decided to shut it down, but that was last week! This is how changeable I am, which should be a red flag for my true feelings, but instead I’m drawn down the rabbit hole of rumination and fantasy again.
If I’m honest, the thought of him and our dalliances excite me, and make me feel superbly alive. I’ve always had my head in the clouds and fail to see what is staring me in the face, or if I do I ignore it anyway.
I do think twice, 3, 4 times, but I’m fixated on the fantasy. I can see exactly how this will likely go and keep doing it anyway! It’s insane. Even if he is distant, I will attribute that to his head, not his heart, and keep plugging quietly away until he gives in. It’s very calculated. How awful that I have this insight and choose to forge ahead!
I will be taking the wait and see approach whilst being 90% certain of what I’ll do anyway. I know it doesn’t have to be like this, and I can be a better person if I want to, but at this stage it’s a case of winning at all costs, winning his desire to prove a point to myself that I am desirable.
I should probably go into therapy (again), but that would involve effort that I’d rather direct towards winning him over. Imagine putting that time and energy into something worthwhile!
Thank you both for your support, despite my headstrong ways!
Bewitched says
Hi Problem Child,
You have eloquently described your own ‘headstrong’ ways to pursue LO in order to prove your desirability to yourself. But desire is fleeting. Its can be there and gone in an instant. Intellectually, you know that, even if everything went perfect with LO, you could be distraught again within the week (and others could get hurt too). Where will your self-respect be then? This could be very counterproductive.
What you are feeling is part validation-seeking and part biochemical (you miss the dopamine hit), so why not be conservative? You miss him relationally too, and are willing to throw caution to the wind, but it’s so risky. You have built up the big reunion in your head (understandably) but that makes things highly combustible right now.
You were doing so well last week. You have asked yourself “What has changed?” and you have come up with the answer, and you have written it above. Take a minute to read it again.
Listen to Mila. Be cautious. We support you.
ABCD says
Hi Problem Child.
It looks like you are having conflicting feelings towards your LO, and you are feeling anxious about your future LO interaction – how it will play out, this is understandable. The uncertainty really fuels our thoughts, doesn’t it.
As Nisor as said, it would be good to wait and see your LO behavior. If he dials it down, you do the same. However, the real complication will come if he continues to pursue you, you need a plan for that, as it will feel pretty good.
We wish you the best and hope that you can come out of this situation.
Mila says
Hi Problem Child,
I do understand, and I admire your honesty with yourself, you are very clear-sighted.
I’ve been in that place before and was saved twice by reluctant LOs. In hindsight, one of them was simply a more decent person than me and also valued me too high to risk anything that could disrupt my life. I’ll always be thankful to him for that.
The other one (my current) was not actually reluctant but anyway too passive to make a move himself, and that and my gathered knowledge from past LEs and LwL saved me from making a move myself until I was out of danger zone (I feel I’m out of it).
And I’m quite thankful it went that way because, like you, in the highest high of limerence, I wouldn’t have been able to stop myself.
I just advise you again- keep your eyes open, be aware of reality. When he comes back, try to distance yourself a bit from yourself and look at it neutrally.
Is he really that desirable that you throw all caution and self worth in the wind?
In other words, do you really want to do all the pursuing and hunting with him doing nothing, and in the end you will stand there over a heap of shards and broken marriages, and he can say “well, she threw herself at me, it’s her fault”?
I’m being a bit stupid here, I know, but it’s not that far from how reality could work out.
Please, just stand on the brakes a bit, even if at the moment you cannot feel the reason.
All the best for you!
Mila says
I just tried to get you at your pride, as you probably noticed. But even if he pursues you, just stay aware of your ever changing feelings.
I know it feels like you are a pre-programmed device homing in onto the goal of getting him to want you. But you are not!
It’s just that it’s easier for your mind to grab at that goal and pursue it instead of constantly re-evaluating what you really want.
Could very probably be that in the last second before you get what you want you’ll feel that you don’t really want it.
Of course, I might be wrong and he could be really the one you want to be with. We cannot judge this! But maybe you can know it,
even now.
I mean, don’t trust the feeling of “I want him to want me”. It feels really urgent, but try to look behind it. Do you really want him with all the consequences? And if not, do you really want to waste the energy and loss of pride to pursue it relentlessly?
I guess I speak to my past self here…;)
ABCD says
Hi Mila. You seem to have a good grip on the dinner meeting, I am sure it will be manageable for you. Yes, SO being around certainly keeps things in check, doesn’t it. In my case as well, I feel that contact with LO did not progress beyond a point, as SOs were/are always around.
Mila says
Thanks, ABCD,
I‘ll see how it goes. I think, too, that I will manage fine.
I‘ve got a couple of nice things lined up with nice people, and business travel next week where I‘ll also meet friends who live there. I‘ll focus on that and my family.
Hope you are still in a good place regarding your LE.
ABCD says
Hi Mila. Your plan sounds great.
Thanks for asking. I seem to be in a decent space right now in that I am handling the NC relatively well. We will see what happens in the future when there is LO interaction, how both of us will behave. Anyway, I am hoping and praying that it does not cause much distress.
ABCD says
Hi Problem Child. You are very honest in terms of explaining how you are feeling about your LO. It seems you are in a delicate position right now in your LE. You have not seen LO for some time, and are missing him, and perhaps, looking forward to meeting him. I would just advise you to tread carefully and cautiously.
When are you meeting him?
Problem Child says
Hello all,
Thank you for your so very thoughtful replies. It all resonates deeply with me. I am aware that if things move up a gear, and it gets to the point of something physical happening, I may well have second thoughts (and be too embarrassed to stop it, or too scared to let him down).
I’m also wary of him ensuring I do all the chasing so that he can say I threw myself at him. It absolves him of some of the guilt. I do feel he’s backed off though, there has only been one set of messages in the two weeks that were initiated by him, and it was to ask a favour, the other two were by me. Part of me wonders if he knows exactly what he is doing, part of me wonders if he’s genuinely as conflicted as I am.
But then there is also that nagging feeling that he is my soulmate (I know, eye roll!) and that I am going to miss out on something special. I suppose I’ll never know if nothing happens but if nothing happens I will eventually recover from it, so the answer is to make sure nothing happens! Easier said than done.
I will see what his reaction to seeing me is, and what mine is to seeing him (Monday). I highly doubt he will approach me about it, unless he’s had some great epiphany, in which case it is better avoided for now.
You have all helped me so much to claw this back. I am not ‘there’ yet but I think as Monday approaches I will be clearer, I hope!
Adam says
One thing I don’t have in common with many limerents here with regards to their limerent objects is personal contact. Mostly because she never initiated. And to me that sent a message in of itself. Despite that I did have friendly after hours contact with another female employee. Mostly in texting jokes or memes since we had a similar sense of humor.
Even that aside, like Problem Child is struggling with now, I too struggled with the uncertainty of no outside of work contact. Is she just holding back because I’m married? Does she really feel something for me? And yes, I too, “that I am going to miss out on something special”. Though for me that comes from my mid life.
Thankfully that is behind me. A obviously non-reciprocating limerent object was more helpful to me than what a lot of you all struggle with.
The uncertainty of whether your limerent object is being manipulative our of ego or just hesitant for whatever reason. And us married limerents should take into account that our limerent object might be saving us from ourselves. I have no doubt that there were multiple reasons she left the job. But being the gracious woman that she is I also have no doubt I was one of them.
Bewitched says
Hi Adam,
I just wanted to respond to this:
“I have no doubt that there were multiple reasons she left the job. But being the gracious woman that she is I also have no doubt I was one of them.”
I have no doubt that she left for her own reasons, unrelated to you. And I have no doubt that she felt a normal regret for the lovely co-workers, yourself included, that she would be leaving behind. By the sounds of it, you protected her from those ‘up the line’ who didn’t value her. You were also unfailingly kind, helpful and sweet, from what I can tell. She would not have left because of you. I have had colleagues who behaved like that with me, when I was a younger woman myself, and it never put me off. Also, the way you describe her sometimes, she seemed a ‘tough little lady’, so I very much doubt that someone being sweet and nice around her would have put her off. She just doesn’t sound like the shrinking violet type.
Take care of yourself and have a lovely weekend.
Adam says
“Also, the way you describe her sometimes, she seemed a ‘tough little lady’”
Haha yeah she was. She wasn’t a girly girl. I remember her telling me when she was a young girl her grandma would dress her in dresses to play and she would go outside and intentionally get them muddy so she could wear what she wanted. 🙂
Or she would give me grief, in a kidding way, when I would do something (that I do for all the women in my life) like open a door for her or walk her out to her truck if she didn’t have a umbrella. When she’d give me grief I’d be like “why do you think I have this umbrella in my truck? I still walk my wife out to the car and open the door for her. That’s the way I was raised.” But yeah she was a tough cookie.
Jim says
LOVISA – It looks like you missed my previous reply but I thought I’d give you a little update . Looks like I’m getting over things bit by bit . I went to the gym deliberately yesterday so I could time coming out for the same time I’d go on a “sojourn” , to prove to myself I could resist it . Came out and “did a left” without even questioning it 🙂 After bingeing on lots of limerence videos and reading hundreds of comments , and seeing that NONE of them are similar to mine (they’re all love/romance-based) , I’ve drawn the conclusion that I might not be going through an L.E as such , although I think it’s possibly dancing on the limerent spectrum somewhere .
I believe what I’m doing , due to my broodiness and childhood experiences , is “mentally parenting” by proxy . All cards on the table as usual . The “object” is tiny , as in half the size of her peers . All her peers are the usual kids , boys all play-fighting and jockeying to be the “alpha” , girls all giggling and preening to be “Queen Bee” , but she physically stands far away from them looking anxious and/or sad . And it tugs my heartstrings . One of my problems is I’m very empathic , maybe too much so , I tend to put others feelings above my own all the time . And when I see her looking lonely and sad I just want to ask her if everything’s o.k and make sure she’s not being bullied . Not everyone talks to their parents about what they’re going through (like me when I was being abused) . I was also the smallest kid in my year at school and although I was never bullied , I know at that age it’s easy to develop an inferiority complex if you feel you don’t “measure up” to everyone else.
And it’s this “sight connection” thing which is keeping everything going . If I saw her laughing and playing with the other kids I could breath a sigh of relief and walk away happy for her . But it’s this nagging doubt and seeing her looking sad and lonely which is giving oxygen to the whole thing . Which means there are only 2 options . First – actually approach her and ask her if she’s o.k , which runs the risk of upsetting her even more . I mean if she even talks to me , what if she says “no I’m not” . That’d be like setting an emotional nuke off for both of us . Second – NC forever . So employing “Executive Brain” here again , I’m sensibly going for the latter . I’ve got enough problems in life at the mo without potentially adding another massive one . I’m going to have to hope that what she’s going through , if anything , is temporary and is just part of her growing up . And if she IS being bullied then the school or her parents can deal with it . At the end of the day IT’S NOT MY JOB . And that’s another horrible tactic I’ve had to employ . It disgusts me to be honest , and I’m almost ashamed of it , but now when she pops into my head I’m forcing exec brain to say : “N.M.P – Not My Problem”
Now I can’t say I’m never going to have a relapse , but if I do , I hope if/when I do , I see her laughing , I honestly think that would give me “closure” on the whole experience .
Have a great weekend
Bewitched says
Dear Jim,
I am very glad that you are using your ‘executive brain’ to see the situation clearly. What a relief!
No contact is definitely the right option for your situation. You mentioned feeling empathetic towards this girl because of how small and lonely she looks and how this reminds you of how you felt yourself as a kid. You say:
” I’m going to have to hope that what she’s going through , if anything , is temporary and is just part of her growing up . And if she IS being bullied then the school or her parents can deal with it . At the end of the day IT’S NOT MY JOB . And that’s another horrible tactic I’ve had to employ . It disgusts me to be honest , and I’m almost ashamed of it , but now when she pops into my head I’m forcing exec brain to say : “N.M.P – Not My Problem”
Now I can’t say I’m never going to have a relapse , but if I do , I hope if/when I do , I see her laughing , I honestly think that would give me “closure” on the whole experience .”
If I can jump in here with an observation:
Being empathetic is such a gift but us empaths don’t always get it right. It is possible that she has a resting ‘sad face’ and she is absolutely fine. It is (very) possible, I would say, that you could be projecting your own feelings as a kid onto her. Please bear this in mind when you apply your very sensible ‘Not My Problem’ executive reasoning. Perhaps it is less a case of ‘Not My Problem’ and more a case of ‘Not A Problem’? Then you wont need to feel bad about it. I think its unlikely that she needs rescuing, honestly. That would be a big coincidence if she was because most of these feelings are only created inside our own minds. Kids that age are moody (I should know!). My experience as a teacher shows me that they are also generally kinder to one another nowadays than back in the 70s and 80s when some of us grew up.
I do hope that you keep turning left on your way out of the gym. Keep us posted.
All the best & enjoy the weekend.
Jim says
Lovely to hear from you again Bewitched . Took the words right out of my mouth there , I was going to mention the “resting bitch face” phenomenon . Some of the nicest people probably have it and it makes them look unapproachable , maybe she does actually just have “resting sad face” , not everyone stands there grinning like a lottery winner ! That still doesn’t explain the fact that she’s always standing by herself and doesn’t seem to have any friends . Who knows , maybe she just finds the other kids immature & annoying , it’d hardly be a first ! Off to the gym again in a bit , and rest assured I’ll be “turning left” again ! Have a great weekend too !
Jim says
Another thing Bewitched , with regard to your “not a problem” suggestion , maybe when she pops into my head , I can be a bit less brutal , and get the exec to just say “don’t worry , she’s fine” . That and a long term N.C should hopefully get the job done
Bewitched says
Jim – “don’t worry, she’s fine” strikes a much nicer chord. This is a much better suggestion. It is perfect.
If you think about it, this reassurance is also what your own ‘inner child’ would feel reassured and comforted by. That little boy may actually need compassion more than the LO. We all have that person inside of us. The more we love them, the better versions of ourselves we can be. Goodness knows, I used to be so hard on myself. I used to be hard on my siblings. That’s all gone away as I have learned my “life lessons”. Hardship actually teaches us compassion, if we are able to learn and in a good enough headspace.
Sending warmth and all my best regards.
Jim says
Thanks Bewitched , you’re absolutely right , for all I know she’s perfectly happy , I’m the actually damaged one ! Maybe I need to start being a bit selfish , but in a positive way , and put myself first . I forget whether it was you or Lovisa or possibly IMHO who said keeping as busy as possible is key to getting over these things . I didn’t mention that my gym is inside a leisure centre and they do all sorts of classes like spinning/pilates/yoga etc . Maybe it’s time for me to sign up to a few and expand my social circle so I’m not existing in this constant state of loneliness , you never know , I might actually meet someone 🙂
Bewitched says
It was IMHO 🙂
Lovisa also pointed out that “Humans are pack animals”.
A little bit more human connection will do you all the good in the world.
You can always start small….
Wishing you a wonderful weekend.
Bewitched says
P.S. Its never to late to ‘meet someone’. Most of the time it happens when you are not even looking. And just think, many of us on here are after meeting someone, we are just not available to pursue them (!). In a way, you could say that I am envious of your availability, Jim.
Use it wisely 😹
Lovisa says
Yes! Keep busy, but in your case, expand the social circle. Definitely expand the social circle.
Lovisa says
Jim, thanks for the update. I’m afraid my LwL time will be limited for a bit because my aunt died yesterday and so my mom is flying in to stay with me this week for the funeral. My mom has dementia so it will be challenging at times. I’ll try to check on you. I’m also quite interested in the conversation that I was having with Snowphoenix yesterday. I suspect that my Western culture collided with her Eastern culture and the two of us are quite fortunate that we get to learn from each other. (Though, to be honest, I have a sense that she understands my culture better than I understand hers, so this is probably more of a learning experience for me than it is for her). Her initial statement felt like a man-hating statement at first and I didn’t like it. Since she elaborated, now I don’t think she has man-hating views, I think her way of looking at humanity is very different than mine and is quite interesting. I’m sorry that you are kind of in the middle of it. I hope you don’t take any of it personally because it’s not directed at you. Hopefully that makes sense.
Your analysis sounds solid. I am curious why you feel compelled to help Sarah, as you called her in a previous post, but when you learned that your ex girlfriend divorced, you didn’t offer support, you went no contact. It’s interesting isn’t it? You were in a position to offer support to a female peer who might benefit from it and it is socially acceptable for you to engage with your female peer. I’m curious why you fled from your friend. If we take a step back, it’s quite ironic. The adult female is a potential mate. You already had a connection with her. She is available for reconnection. She could possibly give you a family (maybe step kids, I don’t know). I feel like you’re craving family relationships, but you’re too afraid to try so you kind of get that need met by fantasizing about helping Sarah. Am I overthinking it? I’m probably overthinking it.
Anyway, I love that you went to the gym to prove that you could go left. That is great. You went left. Nice work!
I’m trying to put myself in Sarah’s shoes to understand if you can play a role in her life. I just don’t think it’s safe for her. I think the best thing you can do to benefit Sarah is to leave her alone. I can’t see a good outcome for either of you if you contact her. I’m sorry, I know that isn’t what you want to hear, but I feel passionate about it.
I’ll share a story that might apply to your situation. I started jogging around age 12. I did it for personal fitness, I wasn’t on the track team or anything. I had a fairly consistent pattern of jogging in the same places around the same times. Someone could have noticed. One time I was jogging along the canal near my neighborhood. A yellow sports car with two men in it drove past me. Then they turned around. I felt terrified. I turned around and ran as hard as I could to the nearest house. I hid in the backyard until the yellow sports car passed. I still remember that feeling of terror. Perhaps those men were not even aware that they had scared a young girl. I don’t know. But I remember what it felt like. I’m so sorry, but I just don’t see how Sarah would see you as anything other than a threat if you talked to her. I know you don’t want to hurt or scare her, but I think that she will be uncomfortable if you talk to her.
Best wishes!
Jim says
Hi Lovisa , nice to hear from you . Sorry to hear of your family issues , dementia is the cruelest of diseases . Snowphoenix is a bit of a weird one , she comes up with some great points but I’ve noticed she needs to get a snarky remark in here or there at the end of her posts , like she’s passive-aggressive . I’ll go back and read the banter between you two , maybe if she said where she’s from it might give us some insight into her cultural upbringing.
With regards to the ex-girlfriend , tbh she wasn’t really a girlfriend as such , nothing physical ever happened , not even a kiss , it was more of an infatuation or crush on my part due to teen hormones . In fact maybe in hindsight she was using me as an ego boost as she went straight onto another boyfriend (who coincidentally went to my school) when she’d had enough of me . I think when I looked her up on Facebook it was more of a “mid-life” thing to see what everyone I’ve known has been up to . She was pretty curt in her replies and gave me the impression I’d opened an old wound which is why I bailed out , not out of cowardice or not wanting to help , she just gave me the impression she didn’t want to talk , and I didn’t want to force .
Re the “Sarah” situation , like I said to Bewitched , I’m kind of over it now (wonder how many times that’s been said here lol) . Went to the gym earlier and threw a left again 🙂 If you read my recent posts to Bewitched you’ll see i’ve initiated a few techniques for “exec brain” to deploy when i think about “Sarah” . I’m not sure now if this was an L.E or just some weird mental “parenting by proxy” episode caused by my worry for her , combined with my broodiness and childhood issues . I think it probably is on the lim spectrum somewhere as it involved “projecting” my past childhood issues onto her . Agreed that it might be a bad idea to talk to her . Not only the “what is a 50 year old man chatting to a 13 year old girl who isn’t related to him” thing , but I don’t want to scare her , like you were by the guys in the car . It’s sad that something altruistic could be perceived as threatening , but self-preservation is the primary human instinct and I/we can’t change that !
frederico says
Jim
A couple of observations.
“Agreed that it might be a bad idea to talk to her”
Jim, it would definitely be a bad idea to talk to her.
“It’s sad that something altruistic could be perceived as threatening”
No, it is simply your limerence telling you that this is something altruistic. I do not think it is. Step away and ask your executive brain to see how it looks.
Your first paragraph is understandable but on that subject my advice would be to just let sleeping dogs lie.
f
Adam says
“No, it is simply your limerence telling you that this is something altruistic.”
Not under the intense influence of limerence, when I read my old comments when I was under the influence it is down right embarrassing some of the things I said. So I very much agree with frederico.
The intense desire to “rescue” her from a very much NOT amicable home life was intense. But was that desire free of an ulterior motive? Well then I thought yes. Now I know no. The rescue complex is indeed a difficult demon to battle. Because I have done it with way too many of my female relationships including my own wife to start.
Jim says
ps – sorry L I think you misread my post , the ex-girlfriends husband DIED , they didn’t get divorced . I think he had m.s or motor neurone disease from what I remember . The fact she’d kept his surname made me think he probably was the love of her life , so discretion being the better part of valour , I thought it better to say “sorry” and leave her be
Lovisa says
Jim, I had a lovely reply typed out for you, but my daughter called and for some reason, my phone deleted my reply to you.
It sounds like you are getting over that impulse to help Sarah. That is good news. I still want you to work on strengthening your in-person relationships. Now that you explained the situation with your female peer, I see that she is not the place to start for increasing your social circle. Sorry that I misunderstood your earlier post. Do you have any thoughts about how you can expand your social network?
Maybe you are right about Snowphoenix, but that isn’t how I see her. I think she sees things differently than I do and I want to learn from her. By the way, I ran my last race with a woman who grew up practicing Buddhism. I enjoyed her company and admire her so much that I am curious about Eastern traditions. I happen to be a religious Christian, but I love to learn about other faith traditions.
Imho says
Hi Lovisa, I’m very sorry to hear the passing of your aunt and all the emotions that brings together with handling practical stuff that can be challenging as you mentioned! It’s exhausting emotionally and physically! So I’m impressed that you are even still posting here with words of comfort and wisdom for others !
On your other comment,I’m sorry to hear your story when you were 12. Lwl ladies probably have a few similar stories to share. I feel very sad that men have to be mindful of their behaviour to not appear threatening to a woman/girl, but that is a reality.
if I’m walking on my own and a man is coming in the other direction and there is no one else around I’m immediately worried and on highest alert, especially if remote/night time. If he crosses the street instead of passing close to me, to show he is of no threat he is mindful of my fears – thank you Mr. for doing that. (Please take note lovely LwL gentlemen)
Some other men know they are are not crossing any kind of line but are not being mindful and they need to take more care that their actions could be seen as a threat/ intimidating.
Anyway, best to you and yours for the coming days Miss Lovisa
Nisor says
Hi Imho,
true, as a child and young adult, then, I was dead scared of men. Remember going to school walking, I’d hide behind the trees if cars were passing by. There were news of young girls being raped and I was terrified. Also, I as a child have seen twice men masturbating publicly, and even as an adult, I saw one man masturbating on the counter line in a big department store. I went ahead and told the sales lady to call the police . I don’t know if she did but when I left he was still there. Something happens to a woman mentally that one does not know what to do in those cases. It’s so shameful, uncouth! I don’t even want to think about it.
I have been stalked twice by men in a car, where I had to reverse direction and get into a building and wait for the coast to be cleared.Believe me, its degrading to other men, and the distrust and fear one develops for men is unmeasurable. I don’t even want to talk about, it gets me very angry. Yet, I know all men are not like that. But surely I don’t walk alone after dusk … though the events concerning me were on day light.
Let’s drop the subject!
Glad you had two hour conversation with LO! I’m jealous , I wish I could talk to my LO at least one more time before he or I die. But it’s better we do not.
Have a great weekend, Hugs
Jim says
@Bewitched – Thanks ! Sometimes I wish I wasn’t “available” . When you think about it , it’s actually a bit “humiliating” as it appears no-one wants you , which makes you appear a “low value” man . I’ve been looking into a lot of this stuff over the years and a lot of it correlates with reality – the main times other girls showed interest in me is when I was already in a relationship with someone else – or married !! I believe in “the manosphere” this is known as “pre-selection” – if a woman sees that OTHER women are interested in a man , he’s desirable right ? If not , he’s like the “Christmas present” still sitting on the shelf on Christmas eve , or the ready meal sitting in the “reduced” section in the supermarket at the end of the day ! But that’s a whole other story …
Beth 2 says
Someone please convince me it’s not a good idea to send LO a link to This One’s For You by Barry Manilow and say miss you. My rational mind knows it would be totally destructive and delusional to do so. I’ve been doing well staying away but today is hard. Thinking I’m having a relapse to do grieving my dad and health issue.
I have surgery coming up in a couple of weeks and am anxious. SO said something very hurtful to me this week and that also brings LO comes to mind. Sometimes I feel like my brain has broken circuits and limerence is a way to compensate. Also the quest for total acceptance and love but no man could ever be all that. I read here often. Just scared that someone will discover me.
Lovisa sorry about your aunt and sounds very hard with your mom. Reading your advice to others helps me. Adam you’re doing well; Nisor your posts help me as well. Most posts help me feel not alone in having this condition.
Adam says
First off Beth; great taste in music. I am not ashamed to admit I like most of everything he does. He’s a talented singer. How about doing something else Beth? I have found great attachment to his song “I Made It Through the Rain” on the better side of this limerence.
“I made it through the rain
I keep my world protected
I made it through the rain
I kept my point of view
I made it through the rain
And found myself respected
by the others who got rained on too
and made it through”
You can do this Beth. Everyone is here for you. And you will make it through this. I promise I’ve been “rained on too”. And if I can do it than I know that you can. This song I listen to on a daily basis. To remind myself that moving forward and forgetting the past is the best thing for me. Or any limerent.
You showed excellent progress just in posting here before you sent him anything. That means you are self aware enough to know it was a bad choice. Keep it up Beth, you got this. Another good song of his is I Write The Songs. Love singing along to that one.
Now if you will excuse me, by the laws of this land demanded by our overlord Limerent Emeritus I have to post links to the songs I mentioned.
I Made It Through The Rain — Barry Manilow
https://youtu.be/Y338_nzCEZA?si=w6n5fg4GGdeUSgSb
I Write The Songs — Barry Manilow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMLj5WBzl3k
Beth 2 says
Thank you Adam! I like his songs too they really speak to me. Im so happy you are on the better side of limerence. It’s so encouraging. I feel like I am for the most part but boy I have to careful about what songs I listen to. Barry’s music is so emotional and I love to sing. Thanks for the song links. Those are empowering! Thank you for the encouragement. I can do this. Have a great weekend Adam!
Adam says
Beth
I got reminded of this song from your comment. It’s not a song I listen to much anymore because at this point it would start ruminations most likely. Despite it being beautiful in its music, lyrics and singing. But I listened to it a lot when she left before I found this place. It reminded me why I do my part to maintain no contact. The burden of limerence was mine not hers. Hopefully it will help for you too.
Let Her Go — Passenger
https://youtu.be/RBumgq5yVrA?si=GBonPiuqus9Mxm5I
Beth 2 says
Thanks Adam I will listen to this later. You are right. The burden of limerance is ours, not LOs. I’m so happy for you and all the progress you made!
Imho says
Beth, my dear. I’ve not checked LwL for a couple of days and now I check in, your message is top of the comments that needs my soonest attention. Lovely to hear from you again but so sorry you are struggling. Of course you are. You are dealing with so much, grieving of your father and your own pending health surgery. I have experienced both but not at the same time, so it’s a double burden for you. Please ‘ big yourself up’ on how great you are getting through these difficult days. Just getting through one day at a time is a success. Don’t put expectations that you should be some strong, smiley, best person right now. Maybe concentrate on what you need to do for your surgery nice things to prepare you, new luxury toiletries, the best nutritional foods, pampering stuff, maybe a spray tan before you go into hospital! I know it’s silly, but be selfish and concentrate on planning for YOU pre, during and post surgery.
And if you have another non-LO friend or family member you can connect to and lean on a bit and be vulnerable with safely… This may help, as it feels like you are looking for more strength, love and compassion, which you may not be getting enough of from your SO, but your LO may not provide either, he may just present even more uncertainty and stress if you reach out , you deserve more and need to look to reliable sources of strength and support right now. That’s my humble perspective Beth which may not be right, but that’s the best I can offer. My warmest wishes xxx
Lovisa says
Oh Beth2, I’m sending big hugs to you.
Okay, here comes some tough love. You are a mom, right? Do your kids ever come to you with terrible ideas that they are completely enthusiastic about and you’re like, “Um, I don’t want to be the kill joy. Maybe I should let them learn from their mistakes.” I’m having one of those moments right now. I’m thinking, “Maybe I should just let her get this out of her system.” I know it’s a bad idea. I hope you don’t do it, but if you do, we will be here to clean up the mess. You will be a mess, by the way. Your LO is soooooo charming and he will probably real you in. It might feel good for a bit, but the consequences will not be pleasant.
Congratulations, Beth2. You did the right thing. You reached out to us instead of contacting your LO. Woohoo! Hopefully this victory will end here.
I’m sorry about your upcoming surgery, mourning of your parent, and the unkind comment from your SO. If you want to discuss what your SO said, I’m happy to be a listening ear.
Thank you for your kind words about my situation. As I type this message, my SO is refilling our minivan. My mom is happily sitting behind me in the van. She is excited about her vacation even though it was brought on by the loss of my aunt. I love my aunt. She was my favorite aunt. I saw her a few months ago and she wasn’t doing well. I knew her death was probably coming. I hope she feels peace. I suspect that my cousins have mixed feelings about the loss of their mom. We will be sad sometimes, but we will get through it.
Hang in there, girl!
frederico says
“Hang in there, girl!“
You too, Lovisa
f
Lovisa says
Thank you, Frederico!
Beth 2 says
Lovisa your analogy to a parent is so spot on. I listened to the song again and it would be so inappropriate to send that. So glad I came here instead! If I send anything it should be something like Go Your Own Way or I Will Survive lol.Me wanting to send the song is evidence that limerence is an altered state of mind. I agree he would say something charming just to reel me in. Escaping to this fantasy world will not get rid of or help my current circumstances.
I was having a melt down in front of my SO over something I lost. I was acting childish and then SO said it’s a good thing we’re married and not dating right now meaning he would not have stuck around. It hurt so bad and made his love feel very conditional especially with my health. I think that’s maybe what I am trying to find in limerence- unconditional love and acceptance. I think only God can truly offer that.
Will be thinking of you and your family and my deepest sympathies to you. Also seeing your mom like that must be so difficult. Sending hugs and prayers ♥️
Lovisa says
Beth2, your husband made a big mistake and your hurt makes sense. Oh my, that would hurt so much. Of course you want unconditional love, who doesn’t want that? I think you’re right that it comes from God. A therapist might be able to provide unconditional acceptance, which might be a helpful substitute. I am sorry that you had such a difficult moment with your husband. I’m curious, can you tell your husband how his comment affected you?
It is hard to see my mom decline. She was a strong and loving woman. She is her old self sometimes and then more child-like in other moments. It is an emotional roller coaster. My brother is handling her living with him better than I did. My sister-in-law isn’t handling it well. She loses her temper a lot. I’m worried about her. We are looking into assisted living homes. It’s going to be hard to talk my mom into going to an assisted living home. I have 5 siblings who should be helping with these things. I’m the one who took her car away. I’m the one who told her she couldn’t live alone in her condo anymore. I took her for a dementia assessment and I was with her when she got the bad news that she has dementia. My husband said, “You know that if she goes to a home, you are the one who has to tell her.” I know he is right. It’s going to be so hard. My step-dad had a stroke and my mom was his caregiver for 20 years until he died because she doesn’t trust care centers. My mom is a kind, agreeable woman, but dementia brings out a side of her that I don’t recognize. I watched her mother deteriorate in the same way. I think I’m looking at my future.
Yikes, I didn’t mean to be such a downer.
I’m thinking of you, Beth2.
Mila says
Hi Lovisa,
I cannot keep up with posts at the moment and picked yours out randomly to read.
I‘m so sorry about your aunt and mum.
It‘s a lot to carry. I think your family and mum can be so glad that they‘ve got you to tell your mum things and take care of the difficult stuff. It’s hard for you but in the end you‘ll have the feeling that you did all and your best for your mum.
When you write you think you are looking at the future, you mean you‘ll get dementia too? Is dementia genetically heritage? Forgive me for my ignorance.
From what I gather, you‘ve got a healthy lifestyle, the generations before us mostly didn’t know how important that is, I think that can do a lot towards activating certain genes or not.
But of course I’m no expert at all.
I wish you a lot of strength!
Beth 2 says
Lovisa, dementia is so hard on the person who has it and their loved ones. You are not a downer at all! You’re in a tough place but sounds like you are doing all you can. I used to work with dementia patients a long time ago and angry outbursts was very common. As a staff member I could disconnect but seeing your mother go through this has to be hard. Please keep us updated on how things are going.
My husband’s comment rattled me and I don’t feel as safe or comfortable as I did. I want to withdraw and this is an awful time to feel that way. I think that’s why I wanted to run to LO but I can’t do that anymore. Maybe I need to talk more to husband about it. Take care and thanks for your help!
Nisor says
Hi Lovisa,
I’m so sorry you have to go through all these difficulties at this time. Not only the grief of a diseased relative but watching your mom deteriorate from dementia. I understand fully how tiring and frustrating that can be. Me and my husband went through it with his mother’s Alzheimer’s. At the beginning we thought we could cope with it, but it became a real burden since they need vigilance 24 hours a day! The alternation from sibling to sibling does a lot of damage to the patient. They get very confused and “want to go home”, they go back to their memories of childhood. They can’t never be left alone and they cannot even remember from one minute to the other, forgetting who their own children are.
So, the doctors advised the family to put her in an old folk’s institution before the whole family desintegrarte . It’s painful to do that but there’s the rest of the family to look after. Tough choice but there was no other alternative.
You and family have to seriously think about this because there’s no other alternatives. Not one person can put up with the demand of caring for a person with advanced dementia or Alzheimer’s disease. You must understand it takes three shifts of caregivers a day, eight hours each person, so they don’t get overwhelmed with the stress it causes to take care of this kind of sickness. I have seen other friends going through the same problem, one family had three helpers coming daily to take care of her mother, but not only it was costly, but the logistics were frustrating as some workers would not show up on time or get sick, then what do you do? The stress is there no matter what. The best solution is a at a home center for this condition. Let all siblings chip in with the cost if she doesn’t have the resources. I thank God, my mom passed away 92 years old still healthy mentally and physically , just one heart attack and she was gone without suffering long sickness of any kind. She was strong as a rock! Thanks God for that.
I wish you all strength and wisdom to handle this situation with your mom. A bear hug for you.
Nisor says
Hi Beth2,
NO, No, no , it’s not a good idea at all to send the link to LO.
You know better than that, LO has not treated you nicely, I don’t like his attitude towards you. So off with his head! I know you’re in need of comfort and understanding but let’s be real, LO is not the appropriate person to supply that need. This is your limerent brain acting like a junky looking for a hit. Very blunt ah, Nisor! Yes, I’d not like you ever contacting LO again after what he said to you. Got that? Ha. Just trying to knock off the idea off of your head. You’re going through a lot and need some pampering now. Have you got one good friend to share your thoughts and sorrows? A sister, brother? Don’t cross bridges before getting to them when it comes to your surgery. Science is so futuristic now that they almost make miracles with the patients. I have a feeling it will be fine with Gods help. You’ll see. I’m praying for your healing and peace of mind, ok? Sorry for the loss of your dad, and SO not being helpful this time when you need him the most. Jesus is your Shepherd, do not be afraid. Take courage! Say: when I’m weak I’m strong in the Lord. He guards your heart and mind.
I’m
sending a video on Grief, which I think everyone of the LwL community should hear. It’s very enlightening and eye opening !
So here it is:
“THE SCIENCE AND PROCESS OF HEALING FROM GRIEF /HUBERMAN LAB PODCAST#74 “
I hope it helps some.
You stay strong, rest a lot and eat well in preparation for the surgery. Take deep breaths to battle the ruminations. Keep us posted on your progress… a bear hug for you. Have a peaceful weekend.
Blessings.
Beth 2 says
Thank you, Nisor. The urge is gone now. It was so strong for a while. I have to be careful with music. You’re right like a junky looking for her hit. Thank you so much for the encouraging words, prayers, and the video link. I will be watching it this weekend! I like that “don’t cross bridges before getting to them” I keep doing that.
Yes LO has said some awful things. Thank the Lord I deleted his phone number so that does give me time to think before acting. I would have to reach out on social media which seems sketchy. You are right not to contact him. Thanks for the tough love and have a great weekend.
Mila says
Beth2,
I‘m sorry to hear about your struggles! I only read this post as I lost track of which posts are new and which not.
I guess/hope you‘ve got helpful replies from the others!
Have you got any other friends or trustworthy, kind people?
It sounds as if your SO is kind of overwhelmed and I don’t think LO is the right person to turn to now. I don’t remember which is your story, sorry,but you might open an overwhelming can of worms of emotions, expectations etc here, so to say. You‘ll wait for his reply, feel bad if it doesn’t come fast enough etcetc.
I suspect that’s part of why your brain things contacting him is a good idea, because it would distract you from the other things, but not in a good, productive way, I think.
It’s the time to be egotistical and just think of your own well-being and not relying on other people to ensure it, to pick people who are kind to you over others, to bring you through surgery right now.
All the best for you!!
Beth 2 says
Thanks Mila! You are so right that he is not the right person to turn to. It would set me backwards. Yes I think my brain wants to escape and it would not be helpful or productive. Yes I need to reach out to people who care and do something productive. Thank you and hope you are well!
frederico says
Dear Beth2
It was good to see your name in the comments but it was not so good to see what you are going through.
I am so sorry that you are grieving the sad loss of your Dad and that also you have to endure surgery. I thought I.M.H.O.’s response was brilliant, especially the “one day at a time” advice. A relative of mine used the same simple phrase to me a while back and I found it so helpful. Somehow you get through.
My memory is awful and I cannot remember all the details of your L.E. Relapsing is clearly not the way to go, however, if you can help it. It seems like a cliché for to me to say this now but the short-term fix just isn’t worth the subsequent pain.
Wishing you everything that is good.
Beth 2 says
Thank you Imho! I think you hit the nail on the head. I love the idea of focusing on what I need to do for surgery.
Yes I think Im looking for more strength, love and compassion. Thats really it I think and LO is not the place to go for that. It would be a set up for shame, guilt, disappointment and uncertainty. I love just “getting through one day at a time” is a success.
How are you doing with everything?
Imho says
Hi Beth, glad if I helped in some small way. I normally get more than I give on LwL, and maybe I’m trying to now give it back, especially when I see your pressing urgency of a post.
Thanks for asking about me.
I’m still figuring stuff out with my long distance LO. Mila is awaiting my update too (sorry! )
I’m quite muddled right now to know what to share here.
Im finding it easier to help others than think of my own issues I think.
I’m a real ostrich.
X
Mila says
Hi IMHO,
Please don’t worry about me!
If you want to share or unburden, LwL will be a patient listener, and I might be curious but don’t expect you to write anything you don’t want/need to write! No responsibilities here, we‘ve got enough in real life.
I hope you are ok and muddle through your feelings in patience with yourself!
All the best to you!
Imho says
Hi Mila,
Thanks for your kind words. I like chatting with you and others here. I suppose I’m trying to dim down my LE moments so they take on less significance in my head so I don’t make them into some fantasy drama. But of course the phone call was a big deal as been more than 3 months since seen him (or spoke to him). Delay of the call happening was my doing. Just hearing his voice and accent again set off my senses. I managed to stay calm, it became a fun and warm conversation. It lasted way too long, nearly two hours, which I commented on the extremes!
I’ve tried not to over-analyse his feelings for me since, just try to think that: 1. he likes that we have similar personality traits and interests 2. He likes the fun, joking 3. He likes that I’m interested in his concerns, achievements etc 4. He is secretly flattered by my finding him attractive 5. He trusts me
And that is it. We have a bit of a ‘thing’ between us but he is NOT secretly, madly in love with me.
He has never used any word of endearment ever, not even ‘friend’, only ever my name.
There, I did over-analyse after all !! Ha ha.
Mila says
Hi Imho,
that’s not over-analyzing, you just analyzed your instincts during the conversation and came up with a result, mainly that he likes you and your attention but nothing more. Right?
Him not using any terms of endearment isn’t a sign of anything, I guess, or at least not in my surroundings/country. Using one would be a sign of a close and intimate relationship, to use it suddenly after three months of no contact would be a bit startling from his side.
Now, a kissing Emoji…😂🙈
Try to lean on your instinct and the first result it got (usually spot on)- he likes you and that’s it, and you could be on the same level- just be content that he‘s a nice person in your life and that’s it?
I‘m sure all your points are true, also that he’s flattered by your attention, and I guess he‘s attracted to you too, but not in an urgent, limerent way.
Don’t let your fantasy play games now. You are actually in a nice place right now- he likes you, you had a nice warm interaction, you got the situation spot on , and that’s it, don’t let yourself get into deeper, darker waters now.
Imho says
Thanks Mila for validating my thoughts and analysis are in the right direction right now. I’m trying to look at my limerence apart from me. I hope I’m now disengaging from it and indeed he is a very lovely person that I want to continue to be in my life and me in his.
I will stay away from those dark waters. It’s funny you say that as I had a half daydream waking this morning that I was drowning and he and gave me resuscitation and saved me. I rebuffed myself and got up to stop the fantasy stupid stuff!! Ha ha
Mila says
Imho,
interesting dream though!
Looking at limerence as a separate thing, separate from me and also from LO, helps me a lot. It’s like an animal or being of its own that is unwanted and disruptive, telling me lies and distorting reality, poisoning my normal relationship to LO.
Maybe in your dream your LO saved you from drowning in your limerence, who knows!
But now I‘m rambling pop-psychological stuff!
Me, I want a pat on my head from you for not replying with a kissing Emoji to LOs kissing Emoji yesterday 😇
Bewitched says
Dear Beth 2
I just wanted to wish you every success with the op. I hope it is very successful. You will need tenderness and kindness during and after, so I hope you will be drawing on your nearest and dearest.
We all wish you well.
I too lost a parent recently and I send you my deepest condolences. Someone gave me some good advice which was “Don’t think about it too much”. It might not work for everyone but it works for me.
Sending a hug.
Beth 2 says
Thank you so much Bewitched! Posting here helped me overcome the impulse to contact LO and today I am so much better! Thats good advice to not think about it too much. That actually applies to LO too. There’s certain music I just can’t listen to. Hope you are well!
Beth 2 says
Thanks so much Frederico! I always appreciate your comments and great strategy from IMHO. I remember the day of my dad’s funeral there were 4 things I had to get through and after each one it was like check off another. My LO was my former boss who also tried to be my life coach for free(he was kind of starting a business and he coached me for a referral)
Well that turned out to be a disaster when I became limerent and emotionally dependent on him. I disclosed several times and he got mad and cut off coaching. He insisted it was professional for him and said I could no longer go to him for emotional support . I continued to work for him but quit. We still talked (I reached out more) however since last summer I stopped contacting him except occasional comments on social media. Since then he has called me about three months and gives me updates on himself. It’s strange and he usually doesn’t ask how I am. I’m not sure why he does this. One time he was like I was just thinking of all the fabulous people I met on my job and I thought of you and decided to call.
We both have SOs so truly there is no hope. I truly think that even though he is a decade younger he was like fatherly figure to me because of the boss/coach stuff. Because my dad is gone it makes me want that again but do I really need it?
How is everything your way?
frederico says
Ah yes, of course I remember now, Beth. That sounds like a fairly complicated experience. It makes me feel even more sure that it would not be a good idea not to send the link to your L.O.
“I miss you” can be a very emotive phrase indeed.
frederico says
* oh bother – too many “nots” but you know what I mean
Beth 2 says
Yes I always leave out or add extra words to my posts. Yes best to stay away and not initiate any contact. My counselor reminded me the last time he called that I don’t have to answer and that is so true. Have a great weekend
Jim says
@Adam , you say : “The intense desire to “rescue” her from a very much NOT amicable home life was intense. But was that desire free of an ulterior motive? Well then I thought yes. Now I know no. The rescue complex is indeed a difficult demon to battle. Because I have done it with way too many of my female relationships including my own wife to start”
Lol , I believe we’re talking about “White Knight Syndrome” here : “White Knight Syndrome is a compulsive need to help other people. A person with White Knight Syndrome (WKS) feels a deep attachment and empathy for people they see as vulnerable, damaged, or helpless, and an urge to offer them aid”
Which sounds like a word for word description of what I’m going through with “Sarah” particularly the “people they see as vulnerable” part . It looks like men with WKS could be particularly prone to limerence ? I’ve had WKS in the past . There was a girl I had a crush on at a job about 25 years ago , very pretty , dead ringer for Ally Sheedy , if you’re old enough to remember her . Much to my disappointment she already had a boyfriend . Unfortunately she also had a predisposition for “walking into doors” and “falling over” on a frequent basis . She’d turn up to work with a black eye , or sunglasses on to cover them up , and with bruises on her . It was obvious he was knocking her about as she used to refer to her “bad relationship” occasionally . Obviously this sent my “white knight” into overdrive to the point I was trying to find out where she lived so I could confront the boyfriend . This would have been a stupid idea . One thing I’ve learned over the years is never get involved in someone else’s domestic life as both parties are liable to turn on YOU . Now was this display of WKS totally altruistic ? Obviously not , I fancied this girl and wanted to replace her bf with my good self . However once it became clear she wasn’t going to leave the ogre , my WKS along with the “crush” disappeared as quickly as it arrived . (I think DrL refers to this as “the loss of hope”)
Now obviously this raises the tricky question as to what if anything I “expect in return” for “Saving Sarah” (man if I ever wrote a book about my experience wouldn’t that be a great title ??) . Obviously it’s not sexual as I don’t feel any physical arousal when I see her . Am I in love with her ? How can you be in love with someone you don’t know ? Am I in love with the IDEA of being in love ? Am I projecting a combination of my WKS , the fear of getting old alone , my past failed relationships , along with my regret of not having children onto her ? Probably
Jim says
@Lovisa . Hope you’re enjoying your holiday . You asked me “Do you have any thoughts about how you can expand your social network?” . I mentioned to Bewitched that my gym is actually inside a big leisure centre and they do fitness classes like spinning , pilates , yoga etc . I’m thinking of joining a few classes as they’re all free with my gym membership . Something like yoga might calm my mind down a bit , and not only that , you never know , I might meet someone new , i’m trying to tell myself “it’s never too late !” and “50 is the new 40 !!”
Jim says
Just one of my early morning musings . Is it “pre-selection” that causes limerence ?
Definitions of “pre-selection”
“It is the cognitive shortcut that women want a man that already has women in their life. Simply put, women often want what they can’t have”
“Pre-selection is a principle which dictates that women are more attracted to men that seem attractive to other women . For whatever reason, women seem to trust other women’s judgment of men”
Isn’t the first definition almost exactly the same as the definition of limerence ? An intense longing for someone who’s unattainable ? And if pre-selection is inherent in all women , doesn’t that mean that all women have been limerent at some point in their lives (starting in adolescence with crushes on “celebs”)
Jim says
@Frederico , thanks for your input again : “No, it is simply your limerence telling you that this is something altruistic. I do not think it is. Step away and ask your executive brain to see how it looks” . Bewitched and I came up with a method for exec brain to deal with this . Bewitched suggested that “Sarahs” look of sadness might just be her “resting face” and she’s actually quite happy and content . You know how women with “resting bitch face” can actually be really nice even though they look unapproachable ? So when I think of Sarahs sad face, exec brain is going to step in and say “Don’t worry , she’s totally fine” , and I’m going to imagine her laughing . I’m going to turn that frown upside down !
Adam says
Miss Lovisa
It’s cold here now. Momma is tired is trying to sleep on the couch while I am sitting in the recliner watching a movie. Its like 7F now. Im warming a cover in the dryer now for her. I would have never got through this without you Miss Lovisa.
And L.E. And Mila and Limmy, Beth, MJ, IMHO, frederico (he’s awesome) Jim, Bewitched, Hope, Speedwaghon (is that a Flash reference?) Nisor, Lost In Space, and well by the laws by our overlord LE’s demand I must post music links.
https://youtu.be/HyTpu6BmE88?si=2mSMEKhDoGIdUmY4
I thank you all. And all whose names my drunk mind forgets.
Snowpheonix says
Nisor, Sammy,
Last night (I’m still in bed, never out before the noon on Sundays), finally I had a dream about you two, two real ghosts in my dream! It’s lovely one!
It was a summer during some holiday festival. Sammy was visiting this country, and met me briefly in a huge, jammed crowd (waiting for fireworks?). He’s tall with short, black, straight, shinny hair and a black leather jacket (black jeans?), masculine framed, confident, more at a controlled ease, (but not a hippie’s ease) in a man’s early 30s. I can’t tell whom he resembles, but familiar like an actor I know of. His image is still clear in my head.
So we were causally chatting standing in this crowd, without me noticing my LO is standing behind me invisibly ear-dropping. Then I saw LO’s presence. He softly grinned saying, “this is your “androgynent” (not androgynous) friend!” I rolled my eye balls to him and did not respond him. [the sense ended here]
Then Nisor came to attend a 2-day conference at my college [a Catholic one in reality]. So in a rectangle apple-green lawn in the campus, I met her, carrying Judy Dench’s exact face and size smiling. I was so happy and hugged her on the lawn. She said she’s staying at our college’s small hotel [no hotel in reality, but Brother-Sister dorms]. So I said, “why not coming to stay with me, I’ll have a surprise for you!” She hesitated a little with her small pull-over baggage, then said, “Okay.” I controlled myself so hard not to tell her that Sammy is already in the city (not sure for what purpose), and planned to shock her later in the evening when we could meet at my place.
Then, the dream ended, regretfully…. I woke up feeling very happy to have met you two separately in person even just in my dream! I have NEVER dreamed anyone before whose face I have no idea at all!
Snowpheonix says
Judy Dench’s characters always remind me my feisty Granny, scary when I was little and at times, but ultimately adorable and lovable. Her anger came or went like summer afternoon’s shower, as long as she could verbally blew her head off…. Her optimism was the utmost among all people I’ve known!
I think and hope I carry a portion of Granny and her genes inside me… despite several dire situations, I’m still thriving, not just surviving…
Nisor says
Aww Snow, that was a nice dream. LO wanted to spoil it, jealousy maybe, because you have people who care for you? I think a lot of you and Sammy, you both attract me by your intelligence. Like a Cyrano De Belgerac kind of attraction, you know the writing side. You’re in love with the person but you don’t know them, only the writing. Aren’t we glad we have this technology to communicate across the globe!
I truly would very much to meet you and Sammy, three noisy limerents together, can you imagine that? Who would talk first? So much to be said!!! If only it could happen! So many hugs and laughter! Dreams are for free…
I can’t figure out an image of you or Sammy. People are so different when in person! I now have my hair short and natural silver like Judy Dench; She’s very intelligent person in her movies, nothing like me , im not that smart. I’m sometimes very feisty and noisy, other times, serious and private and pensive. I like feisty better specially when I’m with good friends I get along with. I look more like Rita Hayworth in the movie Gilda, (when young) . So you can have a clearer image of me. I still look good and get a lot of compliments from men all ages. My SO is always complimenting me on everything. I don’t need validation from no one because I’m very assertive and mainly know who Iam . At least I try… always like the “ KNOW THYSELF “ and “ I know I know nothing “ quotations. And, really, we know nothing! There’s a vast amount of things we don’t know and never will… it’s too immense to fit in our tiny little brains even if we lived thousands of years…
The dream seems therapeutic , better than the nightmares with LO. Could it be telling you something? Your mind is getting clearer… Too bad you couldn’t see the end. Well, that’s for another episode in the future…
I really hope you have granny’s genes if you admired and loved her. It seems she was a significant person in your traumatic childhood, a refuge , and validation of your feelings. But , for now on, I think you’ll start improving at such a rate as you mature more and more that you won’t believe your own eyes. I do hope and pray to God for it to become a reality in your life. You’ll be just fine, just fine. You deserve it after all you have suffered. God will be merciful with you. I thank you and appreciate your friendship.
Stay strong, do your piano lessons and have a wonderful blessed week. Hugs.
Snowpheonix says
Nisor,
“You’ve so sweet to give me the highest compliment I’ve ever received in my life, although I have no Cyrano De Belgerac’s talent. Indeed, technology has made unbelieveable progress in terms of connecting people and ghosts from all over the world, which was simply unthinkable even two decades ago; one could see ghosts talking to each other only in a movie!
“LO wanted to spoil it, jealousy maybe, because you have people who care for you?”
LO has expressed his seemingly genuine wishes for my wellbeing — one of reasons he did not reject my hundreds of missives, as he claimed. And I told him back in October that I’ve met some “ghosts” in an online “rehab”, who cared for each other (I never revealed the site’s name or any of our handle names); and I was even inspired to respond in or co-write a poem. So I’m not sure LO would be jealous of a bunch of “ghosts”. However, he also knows that I’m not easily to be inspired creatively, therefore, it’s possible that he might be jealous of anyone who is more talented or who could inspire me more.
“I truly would very much to meet you and Sammy, three noisy limerents together, can you imagine that? Who would talk first? So much to be said!!! If only it could happen! So many hugs and laughter! Dreams are for free…”
Why could it not happen? What would be barriers for us to meet in reality? Geographical? Financial? Psychological? I was a host of a chat room once, and actually made an effort to visit some of members when I happened to travel in their areas; which surprised some of them a great deal! Anyway, even meeting in a highly-vivid dream is so marvelous!
As I said to Sammy once, I am genuinely interested in human beings (their mind and emotions), particularly those with whom I have had some very interesting interactions, whether in reality or online, which have made some impact in my small, limited life. After all, what matters in one’s short life? Not just making a nice, comfortable living, right? Every experience could lead to a wonderland, if one takes time and energy to tread on that journey creatively. Our shared journey here is to heal our limerence and thrive better, respectively.
I can’t figure out an image of you or Sammy. People are so different when in person!”
I don’t think any of us could figure out how others possibly look like in reality. However, for whatever reasons, I could not help get some face images (before this first dream) in my head about you, Sammy, DrL, Mila, Marcia, Adam, LE, MJ…. none of which would be even near real, of course; but they persist in my mind particularly when I post to you, respectively. So Sammy in the dream just appeared as I have pictured, your Judy Dench face was a surprise to me.
My look? I can’t possibly give you any public figure’s face to compare with; I never seen anyone who looks or looked like me. I have long, straight, black hair, big black, curious (or melancholy) eyes, 158cm, size 0-4 (in jeans)… In COO, I did not get much compliments, but head turning, or staring, or eye wondering…. from both males and females, which only worsened my shyness and cptsd insecurity…. I felt totally comfortable only when looking at babies, dogs, cats, horses, deers and other animals. I seem to have a self-unawared magnetic field, that Dr L calls “mysticism” over my physique….
Rita Hayworth is beautiful; I’d be honored to meet one in reality! On top of that, you’re so kind to all of us here, tirelessly share with, empathize, encourage, advise and support us with your kind heart, feisty spirit, firm beliefs, invaluable knowledge and experiences. Now, I’ll have more reasons to visit Europe sooner or later, to meet our “Rita Hayworth” in personal ; otherwise, it’d be my lifetime regret!
“The dream seems therapeutic , better than the nightmares with LO. Could it be telling you something? Your mind is getting clearer… Too bad you couldn’t see the end. Well, that’s for another episode in the future…”
My dream with you guys cannot be compared with any of my nightmares with LO. In this dream, it’s summer with bright sunlight, holiday festivity, green lawns, your lovely dress, Sammy’s shinny hair and big eyes, and I was tearfully happy to bump into you in the green lawn and hugged you… . But the dream’s both parts had no results, just nice indications or anticipations. I can’t will a dream of any kind, so let’s see what happens next.
“I really hope you have granny’s genes if you admired and loved her. It seems she was a significant person in your traumatic childhood, a refuge , and validation of your feelings.”
Without Granny and Father to balance off Mother’s emotional ignorance and mental abuses, my therapists think my cptsd would turn out much worse. When my cousins and me stayed with Granny, her genuine caring would be there for us like 100%. I think I’ve got some feisty genes from Granny, and one would want to avoid me when I get angry — I’d blew my head off, just like Granny, verbally or in writing, without considering any consequences. I did it to several LOs and colleagues in my COO!
Thank you again, Nisor! I want to and need to mature more, and have a faith in it with your guys’ endless support, encouragement and friendship.
The winter is not over yet; more challenging mental “storms” are coming my way…
Nisor says
Snow,
You’re over rating me with your sweet compliments! I promise am
not going to be looking over my shoulders, ha.
I think, by your description of yourself, that you’re very thin, size 0/4! I m perfect ten, sometimes twelve , ( American sizes) depending on the brand and origin of clothing. Yours eyes must be very intriguing, why do you feel shy? No, don’t do that, look straight on people’s eyes , let them see your beautiful inner soul. Your anger, I believe, is due to the injustice done to you by either parents or people you cared for and never handled it . Try to look into it and see if you can find peace within yourself about that. Sometimes forgiveness is the right solution. It breaks the short circuit on your thoughts. But you have to want it, for your own sake. Anger makes you bitter and age faster, creates a lot of sickness also. Let go of the bitterness and rancor and you’ll see your health and disposition change for the better. It’s not easy confronting our own demons…but you have to say to yourself: “it’s enough, I don’t want these kind of feelings in my life”, I do that but I invite Jesus to come with me to clean my heart because I’m afraid to do it all alone. There might be things one cannot deal with alone. So I depend on Him to carry me on His mighty arms and hold me when I’m weak. I let Him lead the way . Of course I know the passages/words to guide me and I have the trust and faith to do it together . Together , never alone.
Dreams, oh, yes, I have a recurrent dream with the house, always a different house ,, that is messy or someone has dirtied it and I’m overwhelmed with the never ending cleaning! I feel troubled by these dreams happening for the last ten years, I’d say. I take it is my mind that has to be cleaned and organized
and that I have to take a decision on something…Because my house is clean, I used to be obsessed with keeping the house in order and perfectly clean. I had the same dream last night again and it upsets me. I haven’t picked up the Christmas decorations, so I got up early today and dismantled everything and put it away. Thank God for the strength! For I have my lower back bothering me for the last month, you know the saying: it’s a pain in the a#%? Well, that’s what’s happening, ha. It’s age getting to me. Physical pain is part of living, as well as mental pain. We’re a fallen race, the clock starts ticking the minute one is born…
I was pondering before about human relationships, that is : pair bonding, I think that we are all in search for the ideal parent in our relationships; the males are in search for the ideal friendship with their wife/mother complex and women are seeking for the ideal husband/father relationship complex. How it gets twisted in between , I don’t know, but it must be the deficiency of not enough love and care and protection from the parents when one is a child. Since one doesn’t have the right icon stamped in one’s mind, or the unconscious, one makes the wrong selection of partners, and keeps trying and making mistakes over and over again, perhaps never finding that”ideal” partner, something does not compute on this trial and error , and the person feels his/her life is wasted on this continuous search…whereas if you had a genuine icon stamped in your brain the search would have been easier and a lot of heartaches avoided. And no Limerence either!!!
Some are lucky, had that need covered nicely in their childhood and can find their right partner easily and fast enough to enjoy a long life together. It’s all so complicated when it comes to pair bonding…
I hope I’m making sense, just speculating on life’s controversies .
Have a peaceful week. Do your piano lessons, eat and sleep well, don’t worry about things you can’t control, we need you to stay strong and happy. Hugs and blessings.
Snowpheonix says
Nisor,
Nisor,
By American jean size (0-4), I’m small, but not by my COO standard, plus I have some muscle mass, so I’m not light like those petite Easterners. Also, I’m a competitive walker, no one of any age or build is “allowed” to remain between 20-30 meters ahead me, I’d always pass them. My SO (180cm) used to complain because he got a flat feet and can’t walk fast.
“Yours eyes must be very intriguing, why do you feel shy? No, don’t do that, look straight on people’s eyes , let them see your beautiful inner soul. “
I was very shy, fearful, insecure because of my traumatic experiences (cptsd): my Parents’ ignorance in early childhood, teachers’ public shaming, two possible molestations (aged 6-7) by two neighborhood teenagers — the first one was beaten nearly half to death by his parents, but his scream stored in my memory for good, I took it as my fault. The second incident was so fearful (w/ other 3 girls) upon seeing a predator’s grinning gaze at me, I passed out and still don’t remember what happened. I subconsciously thought it was my fault as well. I felt like an unwanted and damaged object, although I was an official single child of two highly successful professionals!
Later I could instantly recognize predator’s gaze at an instinctual level, and have seen it across continents everywhere. As a teenager, I begged once with my wits and smiles to delay an imminent rape by a stranger, older teenager, and I succeeded.
Look straight on people’s eyes? I’m not sure which side would be more troubled. On my side, it’s fear of judgment (empty flattery is very annoying), rejection, ignorance, or uncomfortable “penetration” — in the East, it’s rude to look into listener’s eyes at all time. If I paused my eyes for 3 seconds with my curiosity and smiles, then on their side I’d see (in males — strangers as well acquaintance’s/gfs’ boyfriends, fiancés, husbands, one groom at his own wedding receiption): a predator’s gaze, eyeball turning on, eye-pupil dilating twice in LO), mouth stemming, short breath, esophagus swallowing, involuntary body twisting/moving (still w/ LO), spellbinding to help my requests… (in females), curiosity, envy, jealousy, hostility, instinctual hatred, or spellbinding to assist my needs.
Carrying a curious, melancholic, and mildly Stoic face with little knowledge about my own sexuality, in public in the East, I was treated as a tiny, plain version of Marilyn Monroe, a heavy-hearted one (her childhood trauma was much worse than mine). I strived hard at schools to learn and train my mind (thus my urge to win, especially over boys/men), so as to avoid being viewed as an embroidered pillow or a vase. After coming to the West, I finally could swim more at ease like a nameless fish. But predator’s gaze was still all over places even in my classroom! Could I talk to my students without looking at them? Now, don’t you think in my case, it’s wise not to look into people’s eyes if possible?
“Your anger, I believe, is due to the injustice done to you by either parents or people you cared for and never handled it . “
Yes, that’s the ROOT of it, particularly Mother and oppressive COO.
“Try to look into it and see if you can find peace within yourself about that. Sometimes forgiveness is the right solution. “
I don’t vent out anger much at all (perhaps once every 5 years?). It’s due to insufficient expression or repression, a volcano was built up within. Through my therapies and meditations, particularly Stoic ones, I’ve tamed anger 98-99%. As an Easterner, we are much more reserved than expressive Westerners, which is unhealthy to some extend. The cure is to get anger out of chest in time, lay them on the table, and stare at/meditate on them, instead of repressing them down for a superficial harmony or sheer politeness. (ie. between me and LO)
I don’t worry much about anger which could boost/ciculate my energy, the more worrisome mental states are indifference, depression and despair, in which I just no longer care. Then, my body slips into depression, which is horrible with its drowsiness and nightmares. So sometimes I even look for some injustices in life to get angry at or verbally fire at them.
A “house” in reality or dreams often symbolize one’s mental space…. I don’t dream about house much; important motifs in my dreams are lights, colors, workplaces, classrooms, exams — Oh, how I hated to take never-ending exams of all sorts and woke up just before I got correct answers out of my lips! Dark, gloomy colored dreams depress me a great deal…
I’m so sorry to hear that your lower back is troubling you. Have you tried physical therapies (PT) for it? It could help greatly with any injuries and age related problems. After 10 sessions of PT and daily practice of PT, my mother got rid of her wobbling legs in 1.5 months; she’s been gradually gaining muscles. Would you please to give it a try? I refuse to accept the concept that “pain is a part of living”, so I’m always searching for solutions to ease or solve either physical or mental pains. It’s never too late to help oneself battle with all sorts of pains in life — if there is a will, there is a way!
“I was pondering before about human relationships, that is : pair bonding, I think that we are all in search for the ideal parent in our relationships; the males are in search for the ideal friendship with their wife/mother complex and women are seeking for the ideal husband/father relationship complex. How it gets twisted in between , I don’t know, but it must be the deficiency of not enough love and care and protection from the parents when one is a child. “
Since no one is perfect, then no parent is perfect! I absolutely believe that NO ONE’s childhood is perfect. If good enough, she or he is lucky! From what I’ve heard and learned so far, all sorts of traumatic experiences can be traced to one’s childhood. I think my pair-bonding desire mixed up with child-parent bonding was because the latter, which is life-or-death more important to a child, was missing in my first 7 years. Then during the early stage of infatuation or crush, “love” appeared unconditional, resembling the desired ideal parental one, particularly if LO appeared as very caring, nurturing, and understanding with all ears….
I believe human beings are working in progress, always in Flux. So an icon of any sort would limit one’s potential to grow and evolve in beneficial directions. In this, I think Camus’ philosophy would work for me, never settle to immobilize my self-growth in any areas. Besides a brief period of online dating after divorce, I never actively searched for partners; I’m a bit fatalist here (coming from my COO). If I’m fated to be single for the rest of my life, so be it! I rarely felt I’ve wasted my time with unavailable LOs; to me, all experiences should be counted and appreciated in their own light, dark or bright.
I have no regret in my latest LE, and feel more at peace and loving towards LO in reality. Yesterday does not exist any longer for me, it’s a mixed dream, but over!
Forgive me for being frank, from an Eastern point of view, I still think too many Westerners try the way hard to avoid or kill the 80% dark sides in life, while only chasing that 20% bright sides either in limerence or other matters. If one can watch and accept both sides, with a certain amount of equilibrium, as a default of life, while making one’s best efforts to reduce dark sides, one will not “produce” — YES, ONESELF PRODUCES, so much of one’s own heartaches. Pains can come from outside, but sufferings are produced by reacting to them in unwise attitudes — the essence of Stoicism and Buddhism.
“Some are lucky, had that need covered nicely in their childhood and can find their right partner easily and fast enough to enjoy a long life together. It’s all so complicated when it comes to pair bonding…”
Yes, very few are lucky. But a right partnership is also a working in progress. Otherwise, a stagnation would smother both sides to a spiritual death… Look at the divorce rate in developed countries? and ongoing rate of limerence with SO involved, throughout history or just in LwL?
Big hugs and smiles from a red bird here! 🦜
Snowpheonix says
Nisor,
To correct something in my previous post: I DO accept pains, physical or mental, as a part of life, but sufferings are optional — our attitudes and treatments towards inevitable pains, e.g. others’ rejections, mockery, jealousy, hostility…etc. Thus I daily seek solutions to reduce or remove sufferings. In this domain, only Stoicism works for me.
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
“Last night (I’m still in bed, never out before the noon on Sundays), finally I had a dream about you two, two real ghosts in my dream! It’s lovely one!
It was a summer during some holiday festival. Sammy was visiting this country, and met me briefly in a huge, jammed crowd (waiting for fireworks?). He’s tall with short, black, straight, shinny hair and a black leather jacket (black jeans?), masculine framed, confident, more at a controlled ease, (but not a hippie’s ease) in a man’s early 30s. I can’t tell whom he resembles, but familiar like an actor I know of. His image is still clear in my head.”
Sounds like a cute dream, Snow. I like your description of my imagined physical appearance and dress. Let’s just go with that, shall we? Sunlight must not be allowed to intrude upon magic… 😜
Snowpheonix says
😊🙏
Snowpheonix says
This is perhaps another evidence of a limerent’s mind — can imagine a face or entire physique purely based on worlds, and without any bases, they stubbornly stay in the head and even go into limerent’s night dreams! 🥴
What other ways can a limerent’s brain comically or magically go? 🧐
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
“What other ways can a limerent’s brain comically or magically go? 🧐”
During certain phases of limerence, I put a lot of stock in dreams and their possible meanings. I felt as if I was being divinely guided or something like that, especially regarding relationships. I felt as if my dreams could tell me which people liked me and which people didn’t like me. (I don’t think my dreams were very reliable guides in this respect. I think my dreams misled me a lot of the time). 🙄😆
Now that limerence has mostly faded, I don’t put a lot of stock in dreams. However, the dreams I have now aren’t vivid and I don’t really remember the events that happen in them or the characters that populate them.
I think one’s imagination is likely considerably heightened during the altered state of limerence. I think one might find oneself making extraordinary connections between things that don’t seem related on the surface i.e. increased creativity.
Sometimes, in limerence, it feels like one’s whole brain is “singing”, especially at nighttime but also during the day. It feels like there’s a lot of activity happening in all parts of the brain.
I think limerence can make people a bit superstitious – whether such superstition is considered a good thing or a bad thing probably depends on one’s cultural heritage. 😆
Strangely, I also felt very “mentally clumsy” during limerence. For example, I felt like I was a lot less skilled at doing puzzles or playing certain board games. It was like the emotional part of my brain was flourishing, but the more rational side of my brain was temporarily impaired, and I didn’t do well in tasks/skill that required logic.
Now that limerence has mostly faded, I find I can sometimes win games that required “logical skills” such as pattern recognition. Although maybe “pattern recognition” is a function of the emotional part of the brain, and I just have better concentration these days? 🤔
Snowpheonix says
Sammy,
I have been a “dreaming expert” in my whole life since 10 and remember a lot of them, as I summarized to Nisor a short while ago in another post. After learning a little bit about Jungian theories, I believe that our Unconscious shows what’s deeply buried inside of us, and what sort of stubborn wills or ideas of waking hours need to be “compensated” by nightly dreams. Dreams with all their fantastic images or fabricated narratives can’t change our reality, but could have huge impact on our emotions in handling important matters in our reality.
“During certain phases of limerence, I put a lot of stock in dreams and their possible meanings. I felt as if I was being divinely guided or something like that, especially regarding relationships. I felt as if my dreams could tell me which people liked me and which people didn’t like me.”
As just aforementioned, to me, dreams are not about anything outside me, but are manifestations of my Unconscious aspects; they tell (warn) me about what I might have repressed deep down during waking hours, be they affections, worries, fears, dying wishes… I used to be somewhat superstitious about my vivid dreams, but Jungian theories helped me analyze and understand my own often bizarre dreams, my cptsd symptoms, and of course, limerence pains. (Last night, I had a very complex, vivid narrative dream with plot and development, not LE or LwL related. I’ve forgotten it a great deal after typing here),
Like you, I have active or inactive dreaming periods, it all depends on my mental state of mind. If it is depressed or worried, I tended to have nightmares (the whole fall semester up to the new year Eve); if it is active, relatively “content/peaceful” (during last summer and after the new year), there would be a lot of bright sunlight and beautiful images, nice narratives in my dreams (LO included)…. Whatever shows in dreams reflect dreamer’s mental states!
“I think one’s imagination is likely considerably heightened during the altered state of limerence”
Very true, that’s a great deal of arts created throughout history. Writers, artists, and creative minds have their imaginations even during non-limerence periods, probably curbed only by mental blocks/depression. Otherwise, they can’t create or invent.
“I think one might find oneself making extraordinary connections between things that don’t seem related on the surface i.e. increased creativity.”
Based on whose definitions that they “don’t seem related”? External judging eyes? If artists of life see or perceives, through their imaginative lens, a (dis)connection that makes sense for their life (positive or negative), then it IS valid! Whether she or he acts upon such a (dis)connection is another matter.
Imagined/created beauty is on a creator’s eyes! Have great artists (of all forms) cared about common or logical beholders’ eyes? Again, the aged question: art imitates life or creates life? Even that Steve Jobs exclaimed: “the mass does not know what they want, I’ll tell them what they want”, thus iphone invention!
This would leads to Camus and Sartre’s philosophy: Each of us makes meanings for our small individual life and existence, since there is NO universal meanings out there. But I would not dive into some illusions that would be detrimental to myself or others in any tangible ways.
Again, I had a great deal of imagination and reverie during my latest LE, which inspired my creativity but did not “paralyze” or ruin me since my realistic expectation for pair-bonding was on a subconscious level. Why should I curb my imaginations, which I could also apply elsewhere by in interacting with others, particular ghosts here? All the words piled up in LwL bring the reader some close or far-fetched imaginations about speakers and their realities, without getting one’s five senses involved!
“Sometimes, in limerence, it feels like one’s whole brain is “singing”, especially at nighttime but also during the day. It feels like there’s a lot of activity happening in all parts of the brain.”
That’s called being “alive”, better than a dozing off, tired body in a couch for Netflix! I want creative energy all the time without limerence. The external, 80% darker world certainly is not going to provide it, so I’ll have create some on my own.
“I think limerence can make people a bit superstitious – whether such superstition is considered a good thing or a bad thing probably depends on one’s cultural heritage.”
I wish I could be more superstitious after being trained as an engineer first. Sometimes, my logical mind, adapted from both highly logical and Stoic Parents annoys me, making me so rigid and restricted even just to be my natural self… Once upon a time, I had to drink two glasses of wine in order to scribble two lines of prose or lyric. Now, I hardly drink anything. I meditate and can get that dopamine occasionally.
“Strangely, I also felt very “mentally clumsy” during limerence. “
Yes, it’s very hard to focus one’s mind during limerence, I could not play those speedy brain games. Nowadays, I’m picking them up again. My strength lies on speed of math and pattern recognitions, since cross-word puzzles in English is my weakest suit.
“It was like the emotional part of my brain was flourishing, but the more rational side of my brain was temporarily impaired, and I didn’t do well in tasks/skill that required logic.“
Everyone’s physical or mental energy is limited. If overused in one area, it would be deficient in other areas. Engined by limerence high, I actually did better in tasks. I was more efficient, probably just to impress LO.
Nowadays, I’m much calmer at the end of this limerence, but my mind is so much less active mentally and creatively. I worry it will slip into depression which is constantly licking on the threshold. Why do you think I’d spend so much time chatting and debating with a bunch of faceless but colorful souls ??
When my conscious limerence for a surrogate parent is mostly removed — I don’t and cannot see LO as a parent figure any longer, guess that’s a potential danger in my plate❓
Nisor says
Snow, I didn’t see your post with the dreams! Do you remember on what blog it was? I certainly want to read it! I miss a lot of post, only notice if someone else replies to them and then I follow up the thread.
Snowpheonix says
Nisor,
I thought you might have missed it. See if this can connect —
https://livingwithlimerence.com/wp-content/uploads/letter-avatar/85dd3f9b4cf610f62b3cb4a849d06050.svg
Snowpheonix says
Try again: https://livingwithlimerence.com/coffeehouse-the-search-for-meaning/#comment-50716
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
“Again, the aged question: art imitates life or creates life?”
I had always been fascinated by the question: “Does art imitate life or does life imitate art?”
I think a lot of artists start out imitating life in their work. But then, one day, they create some almost-mythic work (a personal myth maybe?) and their subsequent life starts to imitate the mythic work.
For example, a writer could write a story about a character whose whole life falls apart, and then the writer’s own life falls apart. Did the writer have an unconscious wish to fail and/or self-destruct? Did the writer foretell the future? Does the writer emotionally need to live out the personal myth they’ve already committed to paper?
“Nowadays, I’m much calmer at the end of this limerence, but my mind is so much less active mentally and creatively. I worry it will slip into depression which is constantly licking on the threshold. Why do you think I’d spend so much time chatting and debating with a bunch of faceless but colorful souls ??”
Are you saying you post on LwL as a way to prevent yourself sliding into depression?
It’s interesting – when I was deep in the thick of limerence, I think I was very active online in a lot of forums. (This was years before I came to LwL). I seemed to have manic energy, and the desire to talk constantly. But I was also crippled by self-doubt.
I was pretty sure that almost everything that came out of my mouth was wrong – even if my statements got praise or positive attention from others. I’m not sure if that’s “imposter syndrome” at its finest? But it was a weird situation to find oneself in – attractively talkative and constantly self-doubting at the same time. 🙄😉
A friend of mine criticised me for more or less being in limerence. (The altered state more than any problematic behaviours). The altered state of limerence made him feel uncomfortable, but he didn’t know about limerence and couldn’t articulate why he felt uncomfortable around me.
I think he felt uncomfortable around me because I was giving off an almost “manic energy”, and he was a non-limerent and would have really preferred me to be a non-limerent too. I.e. he didn’t necessarily want to spend his life listening to a manic person going on never-ending mania-inspired rants, even if he sometimes found those mania-inspired rants relevant and/or entertaining. (Every so often I said something he absolutely could not disagree with. Even a stopped clock tells the correct time twice a day). 😆
I misunderstood this man’s criticism of me. I thought he was saying there was some perfect cultural ideal of masculinity I wasn’t embodying, and I had to go out and learn to “do masculinity” the right way. I thought: “Maybe he wants me to be a macho man? Fine!
Cool! I’ll go out and learn how to be a macho man. I’ll pretend to be unemotional. I’ll fake an interest in sex-for-the-sake-of-sex. I’ll act a bit aggressive, throw my weight around, although I don’t naturally have an aggressive streak and prefer to blend into the background.”
Now, in hindsight, I think he just found my hyped-up level of enthusiasm kind of off-putting. He didn’t really have a problem with my masculinity or any other aspect of my personhood. He was quite fond of me at the end of the day. It’s just the lovesick limerent’s apparent enthusiasm about everything (when the limerent is feeling up) is hard for non-limerents to understand – even if they find the appearance/personality of the limerent otherwise quite attractive.
I’ve discovered that non-limerence isn’t characterised by depression. Non-limerence is probably characterised by just a lack of enthusiasm for most things (compared to the limerent who often acts over-enthusiastic if they’re feeling good about themselves/LO).
I think, for some non-limerent observers, lovesick limerents can just come across as “too much”. And this sometimes-attractive, sometimes-repulsive quality of “too muchness” is one way to identify people who are probably experiencing limerence. 🤔😉
Serial Limerent says
@Sammy: My life is imitating art! I’ve always drawn inspiration from my own life; then I wrote my masterpiece–about obsession and a married woman chased by another man–and my life started imitating art. I’ve already noticed the weird parallels.
Sammy says
@Serial Limerent.
“My life is imitating art! I’ve always drawn inspiration from my own life; then I wrote my masterpiece–about obsession and a married woman chased by another man–and my life started imitating art. I’ve already noticed the weird parallels.”
That sounds fascinating and … just a tiny bit spooky! 🤔😲
Snowpheonix says
Sammy,
“I think a lot of artists start out imitating life in their work. But then, one day, they create some almost-mythic work (a personal myth maybe?) and their subsequent life starts to imitate the mythic work.”
That’s certainly a type of case. I was thinking about writers who draw resources of stories from their own or others’ lived experiences. Writing a personal myth is a part of Jungian individuation process. In this scenario, it’s art that imitates life.
There are also pioneers, such as Lord Baron or Mary Shelly, who created never heard stories or romantic tales, then readers copy their ideas to romanticize their own life. Here it is art that creates life.
“For example, a writer could write a story about a character whose whole life falls apart, and then the writer’s own life falls apart. “
Look at your imagination here: immediately a dark one! Why not a character rebuilding his scrambled life? Then writer’s own life gets even better (if not bad at all)?
“Did the writer have an unconscious wish to fail and/or self-destruct? Did the writer foretell the future? Does the writer emotionally need to live out the personal myth they’ve already committed to paper?”
What about positive side of this coin — the writer has an innate wish to thrive (like my Granny who encountered many losses and grief)? What if s/he already had a dark personal myth but wants to turn it around, making it brighter or lighter? Do you really believe that one can never rise above one’s past or get rid of the past’s influences? Then, we folks with cptsd would have little or no hopes?
“Are you saying you post on LwL as a way to prevent yourself sliding into depression?”
25% yes. It’s definitely a way, if there are interesting or challenging topics that engages or spins or puzzles my brain. But afterwards I often I question, what is the point or meaning whether I have a clearer views of those topics, how do they affect my realistic life?
Another 25% goes to writing itself. When feeling depressed, I didn’t want to jolt down a word about anything, although I knew if I began scrabbling, the physical handwritng or typing would SOMEHOW make me feel better, regardless whatever I jolt down (told LO so, and he tolerated my need for written rambling). It’s an effect of writing as a therapy.
Another 25% is for self-analysis. If discussing or debating a complex topic with you guys, I’d get a clearer view on my own muddled mind, confusing or contradictory behaviors in the past: what went wrong or right, what was not so bad, and what could be more tolerated or accepted as a part of human nature, especially regarding limerence.
Yet another 25% for a possible inspiration, coming out of active discussions, debates, and explorations…. I know this can only happen during my participation but not my silence, while passively reading others’ posts. I can be inspired while contemplating how to respond challenging questions, particularly yours.
Now, I just got a new idea about an hour ago in relating art creates life —
My dream about you and Nisor has given an opening for a totally imaginative story; its both parts are open for detailed middle parts and ending…. Why don’t we (you, Nisor, me or any ghosts here) continue the story with our own imaginations, respectively?
*******
Background: three faceless limerents: have never met in person but in ghost form in LwL, talked/“argued” a great deal for 6 months (yesterday was exactly 6th month anniversary for me!)
Storyline: They met Snowphoenix separately earlier in a summer, sunny holiday. Nisor came for a three-day conference in a college, Sammy landed in a celebratory crowd (why and how?) in the morning. It is anticipated that they’d get together at Snowphoenix’s home in the evening. Then the next two days (what?)…
The location: Manhattan, New York City where anything goes….
Now, Fly all your imaginations in all directions!
*******
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
“Look at your imagination here: immediately a dark one! Why not a character rebuilding his scrambled life? Then writer’s own life gets even better (if not bad at all)?
…
What about positive side of this coin — the writer has an innate wish to thrive (like my Granny who encountered many losses and grief)? What if s/he already had a dark personal myth but wants to turn it around, making it brighter or lighter? Do you really believe that one can never rise above one’s past or get rid of the past’s influences? Then, we folks with cptsd would have little or no hopes?”
You make some interesting points here, Snow. What I’ve observed from reading countless biographies is that many highly gifted people seem to be “their own worst enemies” e.g. Virginia Woolf, Ernest Hemingway, Oscar Wilde, Sylvia Plath, etc, etc. It seems to me that many writers do embark on a self-destructive path and, of course, that begs the question – why? Why not a happy, productive, constructive path?
I think we can observe the same pattern with many limerents. Just as many famous writers seem to act against their own best interests in the way they conduct their lives, many limerents (in the throes of limerence) appear to be acting against their own best interests.
(Sometimes I wonder whether the troubled literary greats from history were just suffering from undiagnosed, untreated limerence?)
I think limerence may involve more negative emotion than most limerents are willing to admit to themselves. But maybe the bulk of this negative emotion remain repressed or suppressed i.e. below the level of conscious awareness?
I grew up in an “atmosphere of constant dread”. The source of dread was my rage-filled mother – us kids could never predict when she would be in a bad mood or not, and this lack of predictability about the mood in the family home resulted in hypervigilance. (Possibly encouraged the development of OCD traits too?) But as someone with cptsd, you would already know all about this…
Might limerent fantasies have been an effective way to escape the atmosphere created by my mother’s moods? Quite possibly.
I think, because of the tense atmosphere I grew up in, I find it difficult to enjoy narratives that are wholly positive in tone: stories where the (primarily good) characters thrive and where everyone gets at least some of the things they want in the end. But I know a lot of people do relish these sunny, relaxing, uplifting narratives.
I’m reminded in particular of an Australian movie – “Ladies in Black”. It’s a lovely, feel-good movie about women who work in the dress section of a department store and about how immigrants from Europe greatly enriched Australian culture post-WW2. (The woman in charge of the dress department is a glamorous middle-aged lady from Bulgaria).
Nisor says
Snow hi,
I replied to your dream’s post on the blog : Coffee house: the search for meaning.
Wishing you only good dreams. Hugs
Snowpheonix says
Sammy,
“YWhat I’ve observed from reading countless biographies is that many highly gifted people seem to be “their own worst enemies” e.g. Virginia Woolf, Ernest Hemingway, Oscar Wilde, Sylvia Plath, etc, etc.”
Until this past summer, I rarely read biographies, but authors’ works. I did not read enough Plath, very much dislike Ernest Hemingway’s work, enjoyed Wilde’s wits and humor, touched by Woolf’s Mrs. Dalloway, Orlando, Lily Briscoe, “the Voyage out” (did not quite understand “between the acts” back then)…
“It seems to me that many writers do embark on a self-destructive path and, of course, that begs the question – why? Why not a happy, productive, constructive path?”
It’s not they intentionally “embark” on a self-destructive path” but they had untreated cptsd that led them to their dooms and fetal falls. The cases of Woolf’s untreated trauma (raped by her half brother), along with childhood traumas of— which might have subconsciously instigated their rages which are dumped on nearly a half of the world, are listed in a book I read a book a while ago, referred by my therapist: “The Drama of the Gifted Child: The Search for the True Self” by Alice Miller. It makes so much sense for behaviors of some famous people: Virginia Woolf, along with other writers and artists, as well as Hitler, Stalin, Chairman Mao…. They all share on thing in common: Childhood traumas, CPTSD.
“I think we can observe the same pattern with many limerents. Just as many famous writers seem to act against their own best interests in the way they conduct their lives, many limerents (in the throes of limerence) appear to be acting against their own best interests.”
I’m not sure if you can separate limerents from famous writers — who knows how many of writers, especially famous ones, were indeed limerents and their limerence acutely assisted their brilliant works, like Dante!? Limerence exists in people of all walks, like in LwL.
(Sometimes I wonder whether the troubled literary greats from history were just suffering from undiagnosed, untreated limerence?)
Highly possible! But not every limerent could create a master piece. What are you doing with your epic poem now?
“I think limerence may involve more negative emotion than most limerents are willing to admit to themselves. But maybe the bulk of this negative emotion remain repressed or suppressed i.e. below the level of conscious awareness?”
I tend to agree, just remembering how many times that I wanted to lift my fists to punch LO’s beautiful face? Yet, the true target for me was not any LO, but my mother behind the origin of my cptsd. In my case, the root of anger was from my ignored and abused childhood — I haven’t painted the whole picture yet… no need to hang all my stained laundry here.
“I grew up in an “atmosphere of constant dread”. The source of dread was my rage-filled mother – us kids could never predict when she would be in a bad mood or not, and this lack of predictability about the mood in the family home resulted in hypervigilance. (Possibly encouraged the development of OCD traits too?) But as someone with cptsd, you would already know all about this…”
I did not want to arrogantly and unprofessionally label you with cptd or OCD, aside from your self-claimed Asperger. But based on what I’ve learned from several youtube cptsd channels, your case in childhood is already amounted to cptsd, seemingly without acute traumatic incidents. But what habitual hypervigilance, dread, and fear would do to a child’s developing brain and neural system?
“Might limerent fantasies have been an effective way to escape the atmosphere created by my mother’s moods? Quite possibly.”
That was what happened in my case, differing in that Mom most ignored me, but physically beaten me and verbally abused me when she “needed” to interact with me. Impatience, Irascibility, icidic tongue are Mom’s dominate moods! The former trait is ongoing. All my LOs, even Narc ones, appeared much “nicer” than Mom, and she tried to flirt with two.
“I think, because of the tense atmosphere I grew up in, I find it difficult to enjoy narratives that are wholly positive in tone: stories where the (primarily good) characters thrive and where everyone gets at least some of the things they want in the end. But I know a lot of people do relish these sunny, relaxing, uplifting narratives.”
NOT me at all! I was drawn to tragedies, thought (still think) that almost all great works come from “tragedies” — the default of this imperfect world! “Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.” Who wants to read boring, jolly, feel-good-ending stories? During teenage years,I used to cry for characters’ sad fates in books, Father would mock at my sentimentality and claimed “reading too much” had caused my ridiculous tears.
I did not make myself clear in my previous post: I like a “hero’s soul-wringing journey, in which she or he fights with and slains their own demons within. They often fail but lessons are learned and there is a sense of redemption in the end, such as characters of Dostoevsky, Woolf, Lessing, Dickens, Shakespeare, Brontë sisters, Tolstoy, Hugo, George Sand, Stendhal, Flaubert, and that bloody Proust… I even get bored with Jane Austin, but still like the subtle social dances between men and women in her works.
Snowpheonix says
Sammy,
Sorry for so many grammatical and logical errors in my previous post, typed after 3am out of a numbed mind.
I meant to say that Alice Miller demonstrates in her book that a lot of (already troubled) gifted artists and writers unawarely or subconsciously use their artistic or creative works to ease their cptsd sufferings — arts and writing as therapy, while those “childhood-severely-beaten” dictators vent out their repressed cptsd rages on the millions of innocent lives. It’s a very convincing book.
Sometimes, I felt the similar, almost instinctual urge to ramble or argue here, just to ease some nameless anxieties or cptsd pains in my system. Physically hitting piano keys also helps.
Snowpheonix says
Poetry is This Screaming Madwoman
Giannina Braschi 1953 –
translated from the Spanish by Tess O’Dwyer
(ars poetica)
Poetry is this screaming madwoman. Everything seems poetry. Madmen
gaze high. Everything seems madness. Madmen fear no moon, fear no fire.
Burns of flesh are poetry. Madmen’s wounds are poetry. The witch’s crime
was poetry. Magic knew how to find its poetry. The star wasn’t poetry
before the madwoman discovered it. Discovery of fire in the star. Discovery
of water with sand. Neither poetry nor prose. Salt is for fish, salt is for
death, the poem is not among the dead. Remember, but don’t write it. Love
her duendes and act as her Lazarus, but don’t wake her. Sleepwalker
among cats, thief among dogs, man among women, woman among men,
blasphemous toward religion, fed up with poverty. Tear out poetry’s voice.
Don’t let her find you, hide. Disregard her, ignore her, forsake her. Don’t
touch her wounds, she’ll scorn you. Back away. Scorn the poem. Develop
without her. Give her the necessary distance. Let her feel conceited. Then
insult her for not having written with power. Deride her dreams, slap her
eyes. Kneel down and ask her forgiveness. Take the poem from her belly.
Sleep beside her, but don’t avert your eyes. Listen to what she tells you in
dreams. Acknowledge her when you see her spell the names of hell.
Descend with her into hell, climb her streets, burn within her history. There
are no names, no history. The volcano erupts and rushes toward the poem.
I can’t do anything but bash her against a rock. I can’t do anything but
embrace her. I can’t do anything but insult her dreams, and she can’t do
anything but open the poem for me, just a crack, a crack in silence, without
watchmen or maidens, with a fowl and an owl to keep distant, to keep
silent, to show up barefoot. And she couldn’t do anything but crash against
the rocks, and the wind couldn’t do anything but blow her locks, and time
couldn’t do anything but eternalize her moment. And poetry is nowhere in
the castle. She disappears through the trapdoor, escapes with the fire that
burns her and dissolves in water
Snowpheonix says
Where is the Poet
Yone Noguchi 1875 –1947
The inky-garmented, truth-dead Cloud—woven by dumb ghost alone in the darkness of
phantasmal mountain-mouth—kidnapped the maiden Moon, silence-faced,
love-mannered, mirroring her golden breast in silvery rivulets:
The Wind, her lover, grey-haired in one moment, crazes around the Universe, hunting
her dewy love-letters, strewn secretly upon the oat-carpets of the open field.
O, drama! never performed, never gossiped, never rhymed!
Behold—to the blind beast, ever tearless, iron-hearted, the Heaven has no mouth to interpret these tidings!
Ah, where is the man who lives out of himself?—the poet inspired often to chronicle these
things
Snowpheonix says
How Do I Know When a Poem Is Finished?
Naomi Shihab Nye
1952 –
When you quietly close
the door to a room
the room is not finished.
It is resting. Temporarily.
Glad to be without you
for a while.
Now it has time to gather
its balls of gray dust,
to pitch them from corner to corner.
Now it seeps back into itself,
unruffled and proud.
Outlines grow firmer.
When you return,
you might move the stack of books,
freshen the water for the roses.
I think you could keep doing this
forever. But the blue chair looks best
with the red pillow. So you might as well
leave it that way.
Bewitched says
Dear Snowpheonix,
I just wanted to say that I think it is really sweet that you are seeing Sammy and Nisor in your dreams (instead of LO!)
Fabulous. I wish it happened to me too 🙂
Instead, a recent dream I had was with LO. He was teaching me how to scuba dive and I trusted him completely (uh-oh!!)
I hope you have many more pleasant dreams…
Imho says
Hi Bewitched, I agree it’s very sweet.
Maybe your scuba diving dream with LO was unconsciously triggered by my sharing of my dream with my LO where he saves me from drowning in the sea ( if you read my post ! ) Ha ha…all these water themes may mean something 🤔
Bewitched says
Hi IMHO,
YES! I read your post and meant to reply but got sidetracked and then later read about Snowpheonix’s very sweet dreams about Nisor and Sammy.
Your post really spoke to me. ‘Saving’ you from drowning must have meant that you were processing what that meant, huh? Hmm, best not dwell on it too much though, eh?!?
I can remember that LO put his hands on my shoulders as we were suspended midwater. Although it was purely professional / educational, it felt divine. I try not to think about it too much.
I almost never remember my dreams. And I am grateful for that as they can be triggering. I know Nisor had a dream and it set her off on this roller-coaster of a LE….
Greetings to you IMHO. I hope you are coping with the new texting regime.
Sending strength.
Mila says
I missed that post- really, your dreams seem to be related! Maybe it means that you both know you would trust your life to LO (on LO? With? Upon? Whatever) in dangerous situations and that’s part of their appeal?
I remember when my LE with LO1 (the annoying, arrogant one) was long over, I was on a business trip and bought some delicate breakable stuff, and I had to give it to someone because I didn’t go back to the hotel immediately and couldn’t take it with me. I realized that the only colleague I trusted to bring it back safely was LO1 🤷🏻♀️and he did.
Or maybe it means you‘ve got the same LO who is into water sports 🤨
Imho says
“maybe it means you‘ve got the same LO who is into water sports ” ha ha 🤣 Very funny.
My LO is VERY proficient in the water, and I’m not. So I think my dream is pretty obvious, that I should not dwell on as Bewitched says. Also I guess I want to not always be the “sensible” one , as you said Mila, cause secretly I’m really not good in that role.
I know this LE happened as I’m hoping LO will save me from my many shortcomings and take me away from my family cr#p into his wonderful life. I recognise it all now, it’s clear as day. But he won’t/ can’t save me. I have to do that myself.
Regardless he is still adorable and he makes me want to be a better person !
You guys on LwL help with that too … Thanks
Bewitched says
“Maybe its the same LO and he is into watersports”, ahaha. Oh gosh, I needed a laugh. Brava Mila. Yeah, that is very funny.
IMHO, I also want to “surrender” – have him be the expert.
Its as clear as day, as you say.
That, and using him to help oneself to run away from family cr@p. Oh gosh, so familiar.
But let us not dwell on these LOs and their little ways. Its all a construct so to speak, to a large degree…
Other fantasies needed!!!!
Mila says
I recognize the need to be safe in strong arms and for once not to be responsible and sensible.
I also have it but my LOs got gradually less „strong“, (but maybe more sensible. )
I realize that one thing that frustrates me about current LO is that he isn’t that strong caring figure at all, but I yearn to be saved and cared for by him nonetheless, in a way that actually nobody, how strong and caring he might be, could save and care for me- only myself.
As Imho says, he‘s adorable nonetheless, but he can also be weak and flawed, like myself, and that should be ok for me instead of expecting him to be something he‘s not.
I wish you both strength and patience for your family cr💩p. I hope it’s nothing too severe.
Snowpheonix says
Dear Bewitched, Imho,
Yes, it’s a very sweet dream because of the atmosphere and mood I was in the dream — I haven’t had any tears of any sort for a long time. I woke up with big smiles on my face… I felt it was a miracle bestowed on me. 💃🏻
Dreams are made of images and narrations, I never imagined to be able to dream about any “faceless ghosts”, and gave them a face, which I can’t even draw myself. So their imagined images by my Unconscious are somehow formed by their soulful, characteristics shined through their posts and my mental/emotional absorptions of their words, concepts, questions and caring heart…
I’m sure I’d dream more about you guys here, since I’m a habitual dreamer and remember them…
Human brain is really a fabulous organ, let it shine in all forms, being they day-dreams or night dreams. Don’t let limerence discourage our wild imaginations….
Cheers, Ladies!
Mila says
Imho,
can I please have my pat on the head for not replying with kissing Emoji to his now THRICE!
Although I do miss him and was seriously tempted.
LO was here for dinner, which was ok in terms of a nice evening, but I felt/feel kind of deflated and distant. It’s not so easy to see SO and LO at the same time.
Now when texting he was being very nice. I‘m going on business travel tomorrow and we went together so many times! It’s actually the first time without him since he left, because the last time he accidentally ended up in the same hotel as some of you may have read.
Well. I‘ll have to pull myself together.
Not a good day today, and I notice how it pulls me towards limerence as mood regulator again. At least I notice it while it happens, usually I don’t until afterwards.
ABCD says
Hi Mila. Sorry that you’re feeling a bit low today. You’re right – it may be due to seeing SO and LO together. When we are feeling low, we may lean in towards past LO interactions for mood regulation. These days, I am trying not to use LO for mood regulation, making a conscious effort not to do this. Please keep working on it, you will feel better. Wish you good travels!
Bewitched says
ABDC, Hello!,
Thank you for reminding me about the mood regulation. This reminder comes with superb timing. I will add it to my list
“Also, trying to maintain less rumination, lower the pedestal, less validation seeking…”
Sending lots of strength! Keep us posted on how you are doing.
ABCD says
Hi Bewitched! Great to see that you are getting more clarity on this, keep following the list! Cheers.
Bewitched says
Dear Mila,
I hereby supply a pat on the head (maybe not as valuable as from IMHO :))
And with the pat, a virtual chocolate, and a reminder of how far you have come.
You might feel a bit deflated, naturally enough, because being sensible evens out the emotions so that the daily lows are not as low and the daily highs are not as high either…
But look at the progress you’ve made:
1) He has left the job but you are coping despite this kicking-off your LE
2) You are able to invite him for dinner without having a melt-down before, during, or afterwards – and even navigated your SO, his kids, and (oftentimes) his SO
3) You repeatedly didn’t use the kissing emoji, which is your currency for ‘special treatment’ from and with him
You are also going to forget all about this week, at least some of the time, while you are away travelling. Even if he pops into your head, e.g. due to the drama of the hotel room saga last time, you are more in-control now than you were then. This trip is going to be far less emotionally charged than the last one. So this is real progress.
Me too, I am trying to keep a more ‘even keel’ and not capsize my own dingy while navigating the choppy waters of LO interaction (we have had a lot recently, all work related). I am not fully successful all the time, but I think and hope that I am doing better. I think it is all because of my greater awareness of what is happening to me and why. Also, trying to maintain less rumination, lower the pedestal, less validation seeking…
Sending you three pats on the head and lots of good wishes for a very bon voyage!
Mila says
Bewitched and Imho
On reading again, I’m impressed how much you remember from
my ramblings about dinners etc.
You seem to be very attentive persons, it’s so nice of you that you remember the meanderings of my story throughout the LwL jungle!
Imho says
Hi Mila, do we get a pat on the back for our attentiveness ? 🙂
I guess we can’t follow the details of everyones stories and style of writing and naturally we gravitate to certain people.
Best wishes for your trip. Validation to come from what you achieve from your business trip v your objectives , and then the same the day after. Enjoy seeing your friends again a great and be sure to message your SO lots and lots from your hotel room.
Mila says
You get lots of pats and a massage on top!and this😘😘
The thing is, SO is very bad at messaging. He sometimes doesn’t answer at all. Also, he tends to go to sleep early, and when I‘m away, even earlier, so when the dangerous after-wine-hour arrives, he‘ll be most probably asleep. But could be that also LO is asleep then. They have that in common.
I‘ve already decided to write here instead in an emergency and apologize in advance.
ABCD says
Hi Bewitched. Congratulations on the great progress you have made. Managing your emotions during frequent LO interactions is really commendable.
I am able to feel better during NC, feeling stable is a challenge during the interactions.
I will draw inspiration from you on this.
Its okay not to have a 100% success rate, if you are doing better than before, that is very good.
Imho says
Hi Mila, sorry for not praising you earlier ! ( LwL is very active in recent days, cannot keep up). Good job on the restraint on the emojis and now thrice (a great word btw, we should use more often) ! I’m super impressed. It’s a Monday so if you are like me I struggle and do tend towards LO for mood regulation to cheer up the gloom, especially as lots of messaging since our phone call, so trying to keep steady and not overthink nor over reply.
LO over for dinner again? you must cook some lovely food but sounds tiring on emotions to manage those situations with SO too, even if unconsciously.
I hope your trip goes well. Some great messages from ABCD and bewitched. I find getting out of the normal routines and going on business trips helps my LE. I force myself to be nice and chat to people on my travels as a distraction. I’m certainly warmer and friendlier since LE began.
Maybe wear the outfits you look fabulous in and your favourite lipstick ( if your wear makeup) and boss that business trip. 🔥
ABCD says
Hi IMHO. I am glad that you are giving out more positive vibes now. This is a really great milestone that needs to be celebrated. Keep doing that more often! Not using LO for mood regulation – yes that is key. I like your two words – overthinking and over replying, we have been guilty of those, haven’t we, both need to be kept in check. Keep going!
Imho says
Thanks ABCD, you astutely picked up on my vibes, still lots of life challenges to deal with. One thing that came to my mind was you are successfully applying NC with positive impact on you and your mood. Great to hear. The general consensus seems that this is the long term solution for many. However, I’m conscious you are chatting with us lot who are continuing LO contact and trying to manage that rollercoaster! Time will tell. Anyway, I do hope we won’t be a bad influence on you. I remember when I first came here Summer said to follow stories of those who are going NC as maybe more helpful. If NC not possible then LC, as Speedwagon applies. The No Contact blogs may be useful to revisit from time to time too
Mila says
Hi Bewitched,Imho, ABCD,
I feel immediately better after all your nice replies. It’s so good not to be alone in this.
Thank you for your support, it really helps me, I have to say. Sorry that my messages are kind of trivial about emojis and day-to-day stuff.
Often it’s the small stuff I struggle with. It‘s sometimes easier to have deep thoughts and ideas about my limerence than to deal with the banal stuff in communication.
Bewitched, of course I value your pats on the head as highly as Imhos! Both very highly, I feel gratified:)
It’s true, it’s a bit grey and sad not to have the highs of the ups, so to say. As I said before, it feels a bit less alive, as if I kill something. That pushes me towards trying to get a warmer feeling and texting more than I planned.
ABCD and Imho, yes, seeing LO and SO together is really a bit tiring. I feel SO is a bit wary concerning my friendship with LO (rightfully so) so I don’t dare to really connect with LO which leads to an empty feeling in the stomach, I just sit back and say nothing sometimes.
LO was over for dinner again because he kind of invites himself over, mainly my SO cooked this time (he‘s a better cook than me, but I also cooked a part of it).
I think LO will surely message during the business trip (it’s a short one, by the way) because he‘ll feel he’s missing out. But I have a lot of social stuff lined up with colleagues in the evening etc, meeting two old friends that I always meet in this city for lunch and/or coffee (one of them is my ex I wrote the two letters to in my twenties, if anybody read my post about that, I forgot why and where🙈), it will be a distraction.
Only being alone in the hotel room after a glass of wine might be dangerous for texting mistakes.
Will write here in emergency for help and pats on the head…
It seems we all have more communication with our LOs at the moment, but handling it ok?
Imho, lots of messaging? Sounds you are at my level of communication with LO now. Beware of the Emojis;) but I think you are much more levelheaded and sensible than me anyway.
Lipstick and nice outfit, sounds good, but at the moment I somehow lack the energy and self-confidence.
Validation seeking is certainly the keyword at the moment for me, I have to find my validation elsewhere.
ABCD says
Hi Mila. Yes, good job on managing the dinner. It must have been quite stressful, I can imagine as I have experienced it myself on multiple occasions in the past.
Unlike you and IMHO, my communication with my LO has been zero since NC began. It is helping me in a way. I do tend to ruminate every now and then, but then I try to pull myself out, so that I do not drown myself in the thoughts. Frequent LO contacts were resulting in the highs and lows, depending on how the interaction went (in my head). The current feeling is more stable than before.
We will see what happens if/when there is contact, I am hoping it goes well and is in control emotion wise. Generally, I burn myself during contact, hope it does not happen now.
You really need to be careful how you handle LO, as SO is involved. Its sort of like walking on egg shells. LO with SO is really hard due to the barriers.
Its true that we seek validation from LO, you will need to seek it elsewhere, please try it.
Reach out to us anytime, we are here to help.
Good luck!
Mila says
Hi ABCD,
Thanks, I appreciate it a lot that I can write my petty stuff here, since this LE for my good friend I don’t want to lose is like dancing on a rope, or as you said, on eggshells…
Do you have any idea when you will have contact with LO again?
I gather that you see SO and LO together a lot because you are in the same social circle. Do you think your SO suspects that you like LO a bit too much?
I think my SO suspects that my LO likes me a bit too much, but I‘m not sure.
Hold on to that stable feeling, it’s possible to hold on to it even through contact, as I experienced.
ABCD says
Hi Mila. Contact with LO is random and irregular. I do think SO suspects something, though she has not mentioned it. As such, our limited contact happens in SO presence, whether in reality, or virtually. This is good in a sense, as it provides a natural barrier. I have always tried not to cross the line, and as I suspect, neither has she. Thanks for the wishes, I do get anxious thinking about future interactions (I know I should not think much about this), hope that they go better than I am imagining them to go.
Mila says
Hi ABCD,
Sorry, I feel like I brought you on the topic of future contact and made you anxious. Please don’t be anxious, there’s no reason. It‘s only in your head, you can change that by not thinking too much about it. You can rely on your automatic response to social activity, just be your usual self. Best is not to hope or fear or expect anything from it…
I think you’ve got it all sorted quite well and are in a good state of mind about it, relax and feel good!
All the best!
ABCD says
Thanks for your encouraging message Mila! No no, I have been thinking about this a bit, so you did not steer me in that direction. Not fearing/hoping/expecting is great advice, I will follow it. Yes, I am aware of all the progress that I have made, and now its time to keep the momentum going. Its great to have the support of you all, it makes a huge difference.
ABCD says
Thanks IMHO for suggesting the NC blogs, I will be checking them out for sure.
By chatting with you, Mila, Bewitched, and others, I am seeing that it is possible to manage your emotions even while contacting LO, this instills confidence.
Bewitched says
Dear ABCD,
I think the key to managing LO interactions is all about what is happening outside LO interactions. In other words, what is happening in your head when they are not there. So these days are useful, right now, while you are out of contact.
You know all of this already!
And you have been working on this, so I truly believe and hope that the next LO interaction, and its aftermath, should not lead to such a heavy high+low cycle as before. Or that if it is heavy, it will not last as long as usual. I predict that you will see a manageable interaction, as long as you manage your mind beforehand, via all those tricks we listed. And especially…no mood regulation, no rumination, no seeking validation….the holy trinity 💪
I am glad that you seem so calm. Worrying about it too much in advance might backfire/ be a mistake.
Sending lots of strength. And very best wishes!!!
ABCD says
Dear Bewitched:
Thanks for your message and pep talk, it was sorely needed yesterday. Feeling better today, thankfully. Yes, I am keeping the three mantras that you mentioned close by. I think I should keep replaying them all in my mind periodically. I agree with you that overthinking will just make things worse, so I am trying to take it easy and not let it bother me too much.
Adam says
The annoying things are when you are watching something. Youtube a couple of days ago. And an unstoppable ad comes up and it is Morgan Freeman (that was LO’s first name) and god-*ammit there she comes. I think the hardest part is bleaching your mind of it all. I hate that I can so be into my wife and I and be a part of her life and have fun with my son playing Xbox and than something stupid like that reminds you that you still have a ways to go. It’s a damned infection. “Up and atom!” “Up and at them!” No up and atom!” (For my fellow Simpsons fans.)
Bewitched says
Dear Adam,
Its awful! I have an LO whose name is shared with a very well known celebrity. I am constantly being ambushed and it sucks.
Not sure how to reduce this, Adam, apart from hypnosis or cognitive behavioural therapy 🤔?
Or you could subscribe to add-free YouTube subscription – unless you have taken a vow to never succumb to the subscription (like me😉🤣)
frederico says
Or maybe “Up and Adam”. Goodness, I know so well what you mean. It’s ludicrous but it seems that this is something we have to endure while we are still slaying the limerent beast and trying to alter our established mindsets.
Looking back I realise that No Contact combined with whatever is the best euphemism for “purposeful living” is indeed the answer. Probably the only answer we need and yet it seems to be difficult and take so long.
My LO’s first name has occasionally cropped up to haunt me and the fact that he was once a bit famous himself can sometimes make further complications. I have to be careful where I look.
I can only imagine what it must be like for you, having a family. Having said that, I do rather wish that I had a family.
So I’ll stop rambling – I wouldn’t be the first rambler on lwl 🤣 but I did also want to remind you, if that’s ok, that you didn’t actually do anything bad. Please don’t beat yourself up.
I think we’re gonna be ok.
f
ABCD says
Hi Adam. I too can relate to this. Even if we are trying to put the LE behind us, and on the path to recovery, whenever her (LO’s) name shows up, it sort of reminds me that hey, its still not over, that LO still has an effect on me. Hope that we can get past this stage, maybe all it needs is more time.
Adam says
Or maybe “Up and Adam”. 🙂
We had a good day yesterday that could have turned out worse. I originally had a doctor’s appointment yesterday but then we had really bad ice and rain overnight so I ended up staying home, as they had called off school as well so the three of us just hung out inside and stayed out of the cold and weather. It eventually warmed up enough for everything to have thawed by the evening yesterday. So here I am back at work ugh. But at least the roads are clear today. Thanks for coming by and saying “hi” frederico. Anytime I see your name on the recent posts I am like “yay frederico!” Hope you are doing well today. And yeah, with support I think this community will be okay.
Lost in Space says
Hi everyone, a lot’s gone on in my life since the last time I posted… a few weeks ago my younger sister overdosed on some medications and ended up in the ICU for a week and a half, complicated by multiple cardiac arrests, pneumonia and delirium. Not the first time she’s been hospitalized for something like this but definitely the closest she’s ever come to death. I flew to my old hometown where she and my parents still live, and spent about ten days with her in the hospital and supporting my parents at home. This trip also included discovering just how far advanced my mom’s dementia has become (it’s a lot easier for people to minimize things over the phone than when you’re living under the same roof for a couple of weeks) and how much my elderly dad is struggling to hold everything together, and brought up a lot of feelings involving my sister’s lifelong battles with mental illness and the effects it’s had on our whole family. It was an emotionally trying couple of weeks to say the least.
My SO has been wonderful during all of this. She encouraged me to fly home as soon as we got the news, she was happy to take care of the kids on her own and hold things down while I was away, was emotionally supportive over the phone every day while I was gone and she’s been warm and loving and caring from the moment I returned home. I couldn’t ask for anything more from her. I love her so much, I missed her constantly while I was away, and it felt wonderful to come home to her and be together again, and every moment we’ve spent together since I got back has felt wonderful.
But… I’ve also experienced a higher than usual degree of closeness with LO during this time as well, in a way that feels really nice while it’s occurring but also leaves me feeling really guilty and a little fearful when I think of how good my SO is and how she just absolutely doesn’t deserve my emotional infidelity.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, I’ve leaned on my LO both for emotional support and distraction these last couple weeks. I know this is really wrong… but after I got the call from my dad about my sister overdosing, my first call was to SO and we talked for a few minutes but she was busy taking care of the kids, so I took a walk by myself and of course starting thinking about calling LO (I was at work, LO was home for the day) – I wrestled with myself for awhile knowing I shouldn’t call her in such a vulnerable moment, but finally I gave in and told myself it would be so nice to just hear her voice for a few minutes so I called her… and of course we ended up talking for over 2 hours and had a really emotionally connected conversation. And then the next morning I woke up at my parents’ house to find texts from LO asking how I was doing and saying how much she cared about me and was thinking about me a lot and was always there for me and stuff like that.
And for the time I was away, I was texting with LO a lot – sometimes receiving emotional support from her, sometimes just distracting myself with pleasant banter with her, both of us expressing a lot of affection for each other, not quite openly using the word love but both sending lots of heart emojis… but of course also sticking to our rules about when we could contact each other meaning that I was getting a lot of support from her on weekdays but not being able to have contact with her at all on weekends when her SO was home with her.
And when I got back home and came back to work this week, the closeness has continued – long talks on the phone with a lot of emotional sharing, long texting sessions, lots of expressions of affection… yesterday I was even surreptitiously texting with her a bit while home with my SO which I normally never do… and of course if feels so good but then every time I look at SO and think of how wonderful she is, I feel so guilty, I know it’s just so wrong… but so far I haven’t turned down any opportunities to communicate with LO either.
And that’s where I’m at right now – exhausted, stressed, struggling to catch up at work, struggling to figure out how to take care of my parents and sister when they’re a thousand miles away and they’ve always been so resistant to any help, and caught between deep feelings and close bonds with two women, knowing that only one of those relationships is legitimate and that my SO deserves so much better than this but also feeling that I just can’t imagine myself cutting off my bond with LO, so for now I’m just trying to focus on not letting that relationship escalate any further and hoping we can eventually dial it back to where it was a month or two ago.
Anyway, any words of advice or encouragement or tough love and warnings would be appreciated.
Mila says
Hi Lost in Space,
I don’t have any time at all to respond properly since I’m on business travel, just wanted to send you a big hug,it seems all very much to cope with!
All the best to you!
Lovisa says
Oh nuts! Mila got the first hug.
Mila says
Lovisa,
And you get one from me, too, hope you are coping!
Lovisa says
Thanks Mila! I hope your work schedule settles down.
Lost in Space says
Thank you both for the hugs 🙂 We can all share a virtual LwL group hug in our minds at least. That sounds nice.
I’ve had lots of hugs with SO since I got home, and we’ve been cuddling and snuggling every chance we get. We missed each other a lot while I was gone and our relationship really does feel so warm and close.
I also got a warm hug from LO the other day. That was also very nice… I always find myself wishing I could hug her more often.
I think I am pretty much the definition of wanting to have my cake and eat it too.
Lovisa says
All I have for you are big hugs, Lost in Space. I’m sorry about your sister. I hope she gets to a stable place soon. Dementia is so hard! I’m sorry you’re going through these tough times. I’m glad you have your supportive SO. I’m glad that your LO is a decent human being. Hang in there, Buddy.
Lovisa says
Hello again Lost in Space. I want to tell you that we’ve had some successes with my mom and sister. I don’t think I mentioned on LwL that my sister struggles with suicidal ideation. We almost lost her over the holidays. My mom also has dementia. I noticed that my sister is doing much better since she reconnected with a childhood friend. The difference in her is remarkable. She is her bubbley, playful self. We had a dance party last weekend at her house and it was so fun! My mom even participated in the line dancing. Anyway, maybe your sister has a childhood friend who she could talk to. Also, my mom’s dementia symptoms are worse if her blood sugars are unregulated. I’ve noticed that if her metformin dose is good and she takes it regularly, she has fewer dementia symptoms.
To summarize, your sister might benefit from connecting with a childhood friend. Your mom might benefit from regulating her blood sugar levels.
I don’t know if this information is helpful, but I hope you find what works to relieve the stresses from your family.
Lost in Space says
Hi Lovisa, I remember you writing a bit about your mom. I didn’t know about your sister. I’m really sorry that you’re going through all of this too, but knowing you, I can only imagine how warm and supportive and caring and thoughtful you are to both of them.
I so badly want to help my parents and sister move to live close to us. I’d love to have them living in our neighborhood so we could see each other frequently and they could spend lots of time with my kids, instead of being 1000 miles away. They’re so socially isolated right now, pretty much all their old friends and other family have either moved away or the relationships have died out… they’ve been saying for years they want to come move to my town but something always prevents it. I’m kind of hoping the events of the past couple weeks might be the catalyst for making it happen for real.
CamillaGeorge says
Lis, maybe there are a lesson of two for you in this post by Captain Awkward. https://captainawkward.com/2020/02/24/1253-beloved-you-are-not-torn-you-are-in-denial-about-your-choices/?fbclid=IwAR1b7agGzNKsHBMkmXAssyXIAmk24hseggg-OWX7Z8VAnZ8kRRlmnNLJGJg
Lost in Space says
That’s a good article, thanks for sharing it. Some of it applies to my situation and some of it doesn’t, but I really liked the advice to describe events using the active voice instead of the passive… “I chose to ignore boundaries and let myself get close to another woman” “I chose to continue the relationship with the other woman long after I knew how inappropriate it was” “I continue choosing to nourish this relationship and keep it secret from my wife”… it’s harder to say it that way but it’s definitely more honest.
ABCD says
Hello LiS. Really sorry to hear about the health of your family members. It is very stressful and difficult to deal with, and ends up affecting you physically and emotionally.
It seems that due to feeling low about this situation, you are turning to LO for mood regulation. From your description, you are mutually limerent, and seem to having an EA. This is, of course, very very tricky, as you have an SO who is involved, knowingly, or unknowingly. Does your SO know about your LO, what would happen if she found out – how would it play out.
I can’t tell you what to do, and I guess you will need to figure this out for yourself. However, I can say from personal experience, that the more you get into the LE, the harder it will be to pull back. In my case, my LO and I did not even talk much with each other, and still I was over my head in the LE. NC for over a month has helped me, and now I am feeling better than before, more free than before.
The highs during my LE were super good, but eventually, the LE ended up causing a lot of distress, caused mild depression, and started to affect my productivity at work. So, I told myself, this is not worth it, even for the super duper highs.
Good luck, and let us know how it goes.
Lost in Space says
Thanks ABCD. It’s been a combination of a couple things for me… I’m leaning on the actual person who is my LO for comfort and support (since we are definitely in an EA and have a real relationship), and I’m also using the fantasy aspect of the LE for mood regulation and distraction – I’ve definitely been engaging in a lot more daydreaming and fantasies lately as a nice distraction from the stress. Neither of those is helping to lessen the limerence of course.
I’m glad to hear you’re feeling so much better after a month of NC! I’d say if you like the feeling of freedom, just be careful of getting pulled back in… my LO and I made it a month and a half once with NC and I could feel myself starting to get over her a little bit and feel more free, and then one text from her and I responded and we were right back where we started.
ABCD says
Thanks for the advice, LiS. I agree with you, need to be super cautious. I am trying my best not to reach out, I guess she is doing the same.
Problem Child says
Hi Lost in Space,
Your situation reminds me a lot of my own, although LO (thankfully, frustratingly) has instated a “nothing’s going to happen, even emotionally, until and if we are single” situation, which helps me to realise exactly what I’m risking, or it should, but I keep at it because I like the idea of us being together at some point. So I suppose that’s the lesson – it’s an idea that we keep hanging on to, not a reality, not really. We keep pushing these relationships for some reason, and we have to work out what that reason is. Is there some deep connection or are we forcing pieces of the the jigsaw that don’t actually fit? We are most probably trying to fix something within ourselves, fill some void that we are, or maybe aren’t aware is there? For me, I have deep-rooted sense of not being good enough, and so I look to others to affirm that I am, but it’s never enough. It’s not enough to say, ok, this person likes me and if we were both single but we’re not… I have to push it way beyond healthy boundaries. You may know why you are looking elsewhere already, it could be as simple as it just feels nice, the dopamine hit of addiction, and the only way to overcome that is cold turkey isn’t it? No, or limited contact. I say all this but I am struggling myself. I am beginning to hate LO for what he is doing to me, but in reality, I’m doing it to myself. Are you?
Lots of strength and self-love to you.
Mila says
Hi Problem Child,
I was thinking of you and how it was to see him after his holidays!
„ although LO (thankfully, frustratingly) has instated a “nothing’s going to happen, even emotionally, until and if we are single” situation“
So you talked and he said that?
Problem Child says
Hey Mila,
No, we haven’t “talked” in that sense, and he hasn’t said that, but that’s what I feel is happening, reading between the unwritten lines! So yes, I don’t know that for sure. We are chatty, but we don’t chat about anything relating to our relationship. I’ve only seen him once since he got back and there are the knowing glances, the tension (on my part, I don’t know about his obviously). I felt he was making excuses to bump into me but could be wishful thinking. Back to where we were before Christmas really. Incredibly frustrating, and it would be for the best, Lost in Space, if I wasn’t so besotted with him! I am desperate to ask if his feelings have changed but part awkwardness, part being scared of rejection, stops me. It’s so very hard to pull away isn’t it? There is no way out that doesn’t involve some level of pain. I am planning to ask where is he the next time I see him, though it is difficult to have chance and appropriately timed meetings in our workplace. I am trying not to text him and I think I would rather do it face to face anyway. It needs to be on the spot to gauge his true reaction.
I am a little annoyed with him because I did him a favour and he hasn’t even thanked me, that’s just rude! Perhaps I am being over sensitive but if he had any feelings for me I’d at least expect an acknowledgment.
Maybe it is better to say nothing, I’m not even sure I want him, not in the sense of leaving SO, I really don’t know. I could have a wonderful life either way, but be lacking still in either connection (SO) or a solid family base (LO). I am just eaten up with pure desire and the sense that I have found someone I connect with on so many levels.
Wishing you all much strength .
Mila says
Problem Child,
well, I think me, I wouldn’t be able to stand this tension and chatty silence… Knowing me, I would ask him if you could talk, make sure that’s there’s enough time and no disturbances , and I would think about which things I would want to know at the end of that talk and write them down for myself before, as not to come out of the talk with unasked questions.
I couldn’t stand the uncertainty.
If you can decide for yourself that nothing further will happen and that’s it, that would be a solution. Can you?
If not, maybe really talk to him and make things clearer for yourself?
But that’s what I would probably do, and as we all know, I‘m not a shining example in managing limerence🙈
Imho says
Hi Problem Child, nice to hear from you. Sorry to read the uncertainty continues post LOs holiday. Was there an expectation of a ‘review’ after the holiday from him ? I would be tempted to have a conversation with him as Mila says , however, only you can decide if that will actually help with how you are feeling or just bring more uncertainty or hope or temptation, maybe none of which will be satisfactory.
May I remind you of how you felt 10 days ago and what you wrote at that time. I think it’s really worth rereading your post and the answers you received…. Link here
https://livingwithlimerence.com/winter-coffeehouse/#comment-50959
Best wishes
Problem Child says
Thanks Mila and Bewitched,
That’s a really interesting article, Bewitched, I’d definitely never thought of pleasure and desire being separate feelings, but of course they are! I don’t experience desire as such with SO, but there is pleasure and I am able to enjoy “it”. I should tap into that. Desire is the want and pleasure is the act, and wouldn’t we mostly prefer the act? Do you know what’s troubling me though (what else is troubling me I should say!). When SO and I make love, I’ve started to see LO when I close my eyes. I try not to, but he’s just there, and not even always in a sexual way, just his face. I feel awful for it but also, it helps our sex life, so I justify it by thinking it can’t harm if it’s having a positive effect 😬
If I could, I would probably choose to have the thought of LO removed from my brain, but putting the effort in to have that done seems so painful. I’m still gloriously attracted to him and I love that, and I love the feeling of knowing that he is attracted to me. I get butterflies when I think of him or see him, that wonderful giddiness. How do I replace that? I don’t know.
Yes, I do desire the desire Mila, I suppose to enrich my life, and it’s not even that boring. I mean, the day to day of rearing a family can be exhausting and monotonous but I have lots of hobbies and interests. Which is another point, I feel SO and I have little in common, and the gap is widening, whereas LO and I have lots in common (though this could be the squeaky wheel of the pedestal talking again).
I think the best thing is to do nothing, as I am still so undecided, but I must give SO a chance, he deserves that, as do our children needless to say. I must not mess up their lives. That is paramount.
Thanks again, I completely agree with the point on validation seeking, for me this comes from a lack of parental validation, so I seek it elsewhere, I hate them for that (though I love my parents and I know they were doing the best with the poor skills they were given).
I also switch between feeling that LO has lots of other women on the go (no real evidence for this!) and who barely thinks about me, and that he’s a troubled soul who needs empathy and hugs (from me, obviously!)
I’d be tempted to say that we should all have a combined effort to dial back the limerent experience, I mean a conscious meeting of minds, but I’d be the first to back out!
Much strength to you all!
Mila says
Hi Problem Child,
you gave me my first smile of the day (I‘m otherwise not feeling very smiley), because your post is so endearingly back and forth. You seem to be a person who is able to look at things from different sides and sway from one to the other. I‘m like that too.
I can feel myself into one side of perception and then the other side calls out and I go there, and then back, until I‘m confused.
In this state of mind I‘ve often been saved by LOs, as I said somewhere before, they were stronger or more sensible than me. That’s why I cannot offer much advice for this high state of limerence you are in, I was always in over my head and luckily my LOs didn’t play along (mostly. one did).
Maybe just don’t forget about your SO and family please. They are such an important part of your life to mess up, even if it doesn’t feel like it at the moment.
Problem Child says
I’m so sorry to hear that you’re not feeling very smiley Mila, but glad I was able to give you a little grin!
Yes! I’m definitely a devil’s advocate sort, weighing everything up from all sides. It can be a blessing and a curse.
I will do my best to stay grounded – change the habit of a lifetime!
I hope your days gets better and lots of smiles are coming your way 😊
Mila says
Problem Child,
Thanks for your kind message!
I‘m actually that desperate for change at the moment that I consider two strategies I‘ve never wanted to apply: transference and vilifying LO. Transference is too dangerous and I cannot think of a person to transfer to, and I really don’t want to experience another limerent episode, no thanks…
But the other one? in the course of this LE I get annoyed with LO quite often, and I know it’s not fair because it’s based on unfair expectations of him. Until now I always curbed it since he‘s my good friend, I wanted to keep him as friend and also not be unfair.
But now I think it might be the only way out, giving in to anger and disappointment, lean heavily on his bad sides and simply vilify him, deliberately see only his annoying sides and weaknesses.
It’s deeply unfair, but I don’t know what else to do.
He and his SO are honest and decent people, but I feel the urge to be angry at them for being righteous and boring, for stressing their only kid with their performance-oriented education, him for liking to get his ego stroked and validated by my limerence, texting the whole time but not making one move to see or speak to me properly in person.
I know that I’ve no right to feel that way, but now I finally think it might be good to give in to these thoughts, maybe it’s the only way to get out?
Problem Child says
Ah Mila, I can feel how desperate you are, and can completely relate. I’ve had the same thoughts. There are easily other men I could transfer to, who I feel would reciprocate, but I don’t feel anything really that way for them, although it is nice to have their attention (also colleagues so it can be amusing to see LO’s reaction when they flirt).
I don’t know about turning the anger on him – is that in your nature? I just think it might envelop you in nastiness but I can see how it could feel like the only way out. Forgive me, I forget if you work together or have to have contact in some way. Is NC not an option?
You say he is boring, I wonder if you could focus on that, so rather than being angry with him, just bored? Adopt a nonchalant attitude towards him. I don’t know, I’m clutching at straws here, because I don’t think that would work for me, I’d feel false. I wear my heart on my sleeve…
Mila says
Hi Problem Child,
yeah I‘m kind of desperate today (maybe sugar detox😂)
Well, I would never direct my anger openly at him, but at the moment I feel anger at his complacency, and it feels liberating, that’s why I‘m contemplating to use that somehow. Just to struggle free, not to keep it up. it might help me to finally let go of this whole mess.
Bored, well, that’s a bit harder. He might appear boring superficially but of course he’s not. The thing is, I know him so well, I cannot deceive myself over his good sides, but I might be able to shift the weight a bit towards a perception of him where I see him neutrally, and since the ship listed so much towards his loveable sides, maybe it helps to throw myself heavily onto the other side to gain balance?
(Hell, I‘m impressed by my own metaphor😂😂)
Mila says
Problem Child,
I didn’t answer your question- I used to work with LO, that’s where we clicked really, we were a good team.
Then he left work for another job quite a while away from here,(that’s what caused my outburst of limerence), but for one year he’s still living in my town while he decides if the new job is good for him or if he wants to return.
So while we saw each other regularly at work, now we can only see each other when we set dates for it, hence the texting I guess, both anxious not to lose connection.
But this uncertainty if he comes back or not, is hanging over us and firing limerence.
NC would be very harsh now, we are friends since years, I would have to explain. And when he decides to come back I would need to work with him without awkwardness.
Mila says
P.S.,
he didn’t change jobs because he was dissatisfied, he did it for family. His SO has got a job where he‘s got the new job and until now she had to travel a lot.
Also, he‘s on trial for a year, but he’s so good, he will get the job anyway if he wants it.
Lost in Space says
Thanks PC. It’s probably a blessing in disguise that your LO is implementing that policy. My LO seems to have a policy of “nothing can happen physically but we can be really close emotionally” and I’m a willing accomplice, and it’s just a really hard place to be because the emotional connection makes it so hard to even consider pulling away, but at the same time there’s always something deeply unsatisfying about a relationship with so many limits on it.
Problem Child says
Hi Mila,
Ugh, just the words, “can we talk?” have me baulking! I’d feel I was coming across as needy, even though that’s what I am. I don’t want to scare him away, as I’ve done in the past with other LOs.
I will think of what I need to know, it will help with the awkwardness of the situation if I’m prepared. My mind often goes blank around him! But I’m definitely not at a point where I can accept that nothing further will happen.
I shall keep you posted! You’re a shining example with your advice to me anyway!
Problem Child says
Aha, IMHO!
Thank you for this, it seems someone else wrote that? Not me surely? That was really only 10 days ago? Wow. I can gauge what you’re getting at but the urge to be with him is stronger, and more frequent than the urge not to be. But I have not given SO a great chance, not at all, we are plodding along as normal, superficially happy (on my part). You would never know.
No, there was no expectation of a review, but that doesn’t mean we can’t? Maybe I need to explain that to him. That I would appreciate knowing how things are in that respect, but then I don’t want to pressure him into leaving his SO, and I have told him that. I am not ready to myself. Maybe this is all a test, maybe I read too much into it. Probably!
Imho says
Problem Child,
Ha ha, yes you wrote that !!
Maybe you need a ‘review’ chat with your SO about your plans and level of satisfaction on both sides …over a nice dinner. Carve out time for him and you both. I know that’s really not easy when in full limerence.
And possibly pause the LO interaction another 10 days and see where you are at then, as I feel the turmoil of emotion in your posts. Appreciate it’s not easy to handle.
Problem Child says
Thanks IMHO!
It would be wise to wait, you are right, but I am tempted by Mila’s suggestion of just having it out with him (not that aggressively but you know what I mean). I am going to see how it goes tomorrow and gauge the best way forward from there.
Of course, I have a full conversation planned in my head (where I am a seductive Elizabeth Taylor and he can’t resist me), none of which will probably come out as intended, if at all, but it’s good to have a plan 🙄
Wish me luck!
Mila says
Problem Child,
but have you planned on enough time and a space where you can speak without disturbance?
Because if he gets any excuse to run away (break is over, people joining you), you‘ll be back to square one. Even more important, you should know what you need to know at the end of the talk, as I said, and also you have to have a plan what information you want to give to him, and not least important, how you want to act, if you want to come over calm, challenging, whatever. I would recommend to cut out any aggression or reproaches. But don’t get distracted from your goal of knowing where you stand by wanting to appear not needy (un-needy?).
Be prepared for any outcome- he might behave in an unexpected way or in a way you dislike very much.
If you are not well prepared and still know that it can go any possible way, then better not attempt it and wait…
Mila says
As IMHO, I‘m a bit worried about the ups and downs of emotions and rash changes in your posts. I know that I suggested talking to him because it might end uncertainty and because that’s what I would do because I cannot stand fake silences of that sort, but I surely didn’t mean talking to him as a way to seduce him.
Please don’t be rash and if you talk, make it an honest talk without any wiles and with the clear goal to bring some light into the situation, nothing else.
Problem Child says
I hear you Mila, it is not the sensible thing to do, and yes, you are correct, I have lots of ups and downs, emotionally. I was even in that calm space of acceptance and wanting to make things work with SO again last night, so attempting to seduce LO would be neither fair nor true.
There is rarely time or space to talk properly for any length in our workplace, it’s incredible that we even got to this stage! I want him to know that I still have feelings, and that I need to know he does too. I don’t want to text because that gives too much time to plan a reaction, I don’t feel I’d get a true response, I need to see him.
I also think there is some element of control and wanting to win involved. On my part, that is. Of course I could achieve that baby saying it’s over, but then it would be over!
Mila says
Hi Problem Child,
wouldn’t it be cool if you just walked up to him saying „baby, it’s over“ 😉
(I know, it was just autocorrect)
I
I have to say, it might be better to wait a bit and observe how he is behaving. I mean, you are still on seduction mode, and that might go really wrong and you would hurt yourself if he‘s in a completely other state of mind.
Also, you haven’t decided about your SO and what you want? Maybe get a clearer head?
Or, if you need his input before you can clear your head, talk to him, but without any plans to win him over, before you know if you really want to win him over…
Problem Child says
Hi Mila,
Baby, it’s over… brilliant! Freudian slip by me perhaps? 🤔
Well I learned through another colleague today that LO is under a lot of pressure at work, and that he has been warned by others to watch his back, so now is definitely not the right time to bring anything else up. I don’t want to add to his stresses, although I probably already have. I’m not actually sure he is who I put him on the pedestal as being to be honest, which is a good thing.
We did have a bit of a chat, it was lovely, and initiated by him, plus the smallest hint of flirting right at the end, again initiated by him, so I guess he might still be interested. I suppose he did say before Christmas that he can’t do anything at this stage, and that must mean getting more emotionally involved along with anything else. Writing that brings it home really, is it even what I want. Was it Lost in Space who said he wanted to have his cake and eat it too? Oh how familiar that feeling is!
Thank you Mila and co, for your ongoing support, particularly because you all have your own struggles. I really hope some day I can give encouragement to others in this community, by way of thanks and to pay it forward 🙏🏼
Bewitched says
Hi Problem Child,
You mentioned reconnecting with your SO instead of pursuing LO. I saw this very good article that might help with that (it really spoke to me).
https://www.theguardian.com/wellness/2024/jan/26/desire-myths-relationships
Its crazy what we do to ourselves just to prove a point. You seem to understand your on motivations very well and speak really frankly about whether you even want your LO. I think that you need to continue working on that doubt. Seize the moment now that you have recognised that doubt creeping in.
All the very best!!
Mila says
Hi Problem Child,
you help a lot by posting here, I can think of what would I do myself, sometimes it helps to watch a limerence unfold in others to understand one‘s own better.
I think that it’s possible that you are ultimately desiring your own desire as much as him as a person, being in love with how he, or better, the limerence makes you feel, and you make your own fitting image of him as a wonderfully special and desirable person in your head so that he fits the bill?
I only say that because you wrote that he‘s not the person you thought he was.
Now that he showed you that he still likes you, and you know that he’s busy with problems at the moment, maybe you can sit back and sort through your needs and wants and get a neutral look on him?
And think of your SO and your relationship to him too?
Bewitched says
Dear LiS,
I am so sorry to hear of your troubles. You have had your lives up-ended and it sounds as though the chaos is going to continue for the near future. That is hard to have ‘no end in sight’. My heart goes out to you.
I have some idea of what you are going through because I had a very similar situation with two members of my family that went on for several years. They both eventually gave-up on life. It almost killed me and my siblings. But the situation was helped enormously by having a loving and super-supportive SO. I was also self-medicating with dopamine highs from my LO. I believe that this helped me get through it. It was very much at arms-length, though. As in, I had much less contact, (almost none), with my LO in the most intense painful periods. I just let my imagination do the work. It was pleasant memory curation, reverie, etc. that pulled me out of some very dark moments. Along with the constant love and support of my SO, of course, who may even have been wondering how I managed to cope so well with the sheer volume of cr@p that I was dealing with.
I deliberately didn’t let my LO know much about what was going on over a very long period of several years. But when the crap really hit the fan, I also felt the most intense pining for some comfort from him. It was so intense. But it didn’t happen. He either chose to stay away or wasn’t really aware (he is a bit clueless at times and I believe that he has demons of his own that I am unaware of). Others reached out, though, so I was a bit upset at him and this is still one of the things I mentally hold against him a bit. But as I will explain below, I needed not to hold it against him too much, otherwise that is letting him take up too much space in my head.
Back to you – I have always believed that you were sailing too close to the wind, LiS. I think that you realise this yourself now, hence your post? It is impossible to keep drawing on your LO to self-medicate yourself out of this because you are in deeper than I was and there is the real possibility of getting burned. You have said many times that you have no intention of leaving your SO. That means that, now that the immediate danger is passed, you must explain to your LO that you are going to need to withdraw for everyone’s sake. Then you need to do it and you also need to mentally prepare yourself not to pay any heed to the inevitable ‘low’ that will result from the lack of constant contact and validation. It won’t be easy because you’ll want LO-induced mood regulation more than ever as you face these terrible trials in your life. But I think that you need to manage it without as much contact as you normally have. Cold turkey probably won’t work but you are accustomed to establishing boundaries and you really need some strong ones right now.
I hope your sister, mum and dad pull though this as best they can. And that the rest of your family stay united and on the same page. You can only do your best, no more than that. There is no point in exhausting yourself or you will be of no use to anybody. This sounds as though it may be a marathon rather than a sprint. There is no point in giving so much to the FOO that you become resentful of them. A balance must be found, if this is going to stretch out into the future.
All my very best.
Lost in Space says
Thanks Bewitched. I’m so sorry for everything that happened with your family. That’s such a terrible kind of pain to deal with. I’m glad you have such a supportive SO to help you through. It seems like these kinds of family struggles are pretty common in our community here – I wonder if it’s a factor in our limerence, or just a common factor that most people in general share, limerent or not?
I did find myself feeling scared this week that I was in too deep. Every time LO and I share an emotional experience, and we’ve shared a few over the past year, it just brings us closer together and makes it that much harder to think about cutting our ties, and also makes it easier to think about taking things even further. Our usual pattern when we feel ourselves getting too close to that we both just kind of naturally back off for awhile until things settle back a bit, we don’t necessarily have to discuss it out loud but we both just know. We had a lot less contact the last couple days and both avoided opportunities to see each together at work today, so I think we’re both in pulling back mode now.
MJ says
LiS,
When I look at my past, there are many regrets I have. The main one being how incredibly selfish I was and how that affected my inability to be emotionally available for my Wife.
Now that the years have gone by and we are older, her and I can still be friends and even laugh at some of the stupid $#!+ I thought I could get away with. Yet it was a different story when I was at my worst. She was a very forgiving Woman. Yet my Mother had always told me, that every Woman has a breaking point. Being served divorce papers was proof, that it had finally happened.
Divorce changes everything. To this day, I will still tell my Ex over the phone or through a text, that divorce really sucks and that I’m never going to stop telling her that. She knows I do take the responsibility of why it had to happen eventually. She knew I was messing around. Kept a lot of feelings to herself. I felt guilty all the time about the Fraud I was to her. I didn’t deserve someone as good and as loving as her. I probably even said that countless times to her back in the day. Guess it had finally sunk in when she had enough. How can I blame her?
I don’t know how much you’ve followed my soap opera on here, but as of late, my Father has developed Parkinsons within the last year and it’s been a slow decline. As an only-child there is nobody but myself to really help out for him, other than the caretakers he has in his house for about 8 hours out of the day. Soon he will be out of money and caretaking will end. There will still really only be me, myself and I, that will be able to help him out. He is stubborn about going to assisted living, so thats not even really an option right now. Yet I have no clue how else to be able to help him, when I still have to be at work almost 12 hours every day. This is just tip of the iceberg stuff I’m mentioning here. There is his house I will have to eventually clean out and sell. There are bills that will need to be paid. There are contacts that will need to be made to let people know his whereabouts. Much of, if not all of this will have to be done by none other than me. The reason why that is, is because I was a selfish prick, who couldn’t keep his pants zipped and now have to do this end of life stuff alone, without really the help of a Wife or anyone, because there is nobody to help. Nobody wants to do what I have to do and I am not going to ask relatives because it would just be unfair. I have my own children in case of an emergency. My Ex and my Father were somewhat close and she has agreed to help if needed, but I don’t want to need her. I screwed her life over without Vaseline. In good conscience, how can I really ask her to play Wife again for me when she isn’t? That’s just wrong across the board..
So I guess what I’m saying here again is you are lucky you have a very loving SO and good family it seems like. You also have, what sounds like, a very kind LO. How lucky you are to have people in your life to help you in your current situation. I am sorry to hear of your Sisters overdose and the issue with elderly Parents. I know there are no easy answers. I don’t know how best to tell you to proceed but I feel like you strap on a ton of guilt associated with the EA you have going on with LO. I can’t tell you what to do there, because my advice would probably only be crap. I can only give witness to my experience with infidelity and regret it deeply. Because now I get to do everything solo. This also is part of the retribution I feel I am being handed. Because for years I bragged to my Wife about how much I hated her big ass family, versus my simple, spoiled-rotten, only-childhood.
Well there you go MJ, eat some more retribution right off the platter. Make sure you choke on it too..
I carry a ton of self hatred for my selfish actions and then never acting upon any of this crazy infatuation limerence for LO, has only exacerbated my anger. I try to be civil but I feel like a mess half the time. Which probably explains why I find myself in tears more than I would like. I don’t wish this upon anybody.
However, I do wish you resolve in whatever goes down. You will be in my thoughts.
Lastly, let me leave you with something that a very wise former Counselor once said to me.
“Sometimes you have to let go of what is killing you. Even if it is killing you to let it go”
Adam says
“Sometimes you have to let go of what is killing you. Even if it is killing you to let it go”
And oh boy was it killing me.
I got invited to the bedroom Wednesday night after many nights of sleeping in the recliner. It was (and last night) the first time to sleep next to her. Yes every woman has her breaking point. I think I got damn close to hers.
Last night I actually got upset. She likes this particular reactor on youtube. And after I had finished watching a movie that I started Wednesday night I was just there in bed with her and she was giving this dude more attention than me. I went off to another part of the house and got on the recliner. I laid there for about 10 minutes before I realized the irony of my indignation.
I went back and laid down in the bed and we got to talking. I was playing Rose Pink Cadillac on the TV and she looks up and she says “why is there a lemon in a pink Cadillac with a guy?” I said the artist is Dope Lemon and the song is called Rose Pink Cadillac. She says “good think you’re not high you’d be tripping watching this” lol
Before I left for work I went back into the kitchen and took my fedora off and put it on top of the hood of hoodie (she’s pathologically always cold) and kissed her. Tried to get more than a “goodbye” kiss. Maybe if I play my cards right tonight she’ll oblige me. Can’t push it though. This is on her time.
“Lips as sweet as candy
it’s taste stays on my mind
girl you got me thirsty
for another cup of wine”
Hooked On A Feeling — Blue Swede
https://youtu.be/UtreOlPr6lE?si=Zep9nr0OrjkmYU7h
MJ says
@Adam,
I am so amused you had a moment with Momma and Dope Lemon. I absolutely love every second of that track. I love to sing with it, I love the video, I could listen to it all day long.
Whenever that special day comes and I take LO out for lunch, I’m going to put that song on, and sing the whole song to her. If that doesn’t make a good first impression, I don’t know what will..
Lost in Space says
Hi MJ, I’ve paid a lot of attention to your story pertaining your father and also your divorce. I think you’re a really good man for taking care of your father the way you are. It might not be the life you’d have chosen for yourself at all, but you’re doing your best to do the right thing with the situation you find yourself in now. I respect you a lot for that.
I really appreciate how you share your story with me as a warning for what I could lose as well. It’s really sobering to realize that I could be in your position in the future, on the other side of a painful divorce and wishing I could take back so many things. I think your sharing has kept me from contemplating taking things further on a few occasions, even if I haven’t really done the right thing and cut things off completely.
Mila says
LiS,
the reason why I don’t feel able to deal out some tough love and advice is that I‘m in a slightly similar situation and cannot cope in the right way with it myself.
The difference is that there was no disclosure, and that we are officially parts of our lives, and we are not that far from being „just friends“, so there is hope to reduce it to that.
Forgive me if I already asked that, but wouldn’t it be possible to decide to be official friends and dial everything down until this is true? Introduce your LO to SO and yourself to her SO- you wrote that they know your names in a positive way from work, why not establish an official friendship? It would put definitely boundaries between you if your SOs got involved, but you would still have each other in your lives and support each other?
Or is that completely out of the picture?
I know it’s a long way to that, but maybe it would be worth considering, because your situation now sounds really volatile and explosive.
I‘m really sorry about your familiar situation. Take care and I send another big hug.
Lost in Space says
Hi Mila,
It’s out of the picture. Her SO doesn’t let her have male friends or really talk to other men at all (have I ever mentioned how I feel about him?). My SO is ok with me having female friends but she has a pretty good radar for which women are threats and which ones aren’t. I don’t think there’s any possible way I could spend an evening with LO and SO together and not have all kind of alarm bells going off for SO. LO is too attractive (in all of the exact ways I’m attracted to women) and our chemistry is way too strong. Spending time together would certainly lead to suspicions and questions from my SO, and then I’d be in a position where I’d either have to admit everything or gaslight her and make her doubt her own mind, and I don’t want to do either of those things.
Mila says
LiS,
That’s another difference to my LE, the vile SO on her part. I guess he is the reason she needs you, in a way, and I again ask myself if she still would bear this man and life if you wouldn’t be there, which could lead to her getting rid of him and getting a better life, which would mean it would be good for her if this LE stopped..?
I know you answered all that before, I just want to be stubborn and throw it into the ring once more.
„and also makes it easier to think about taking things even further. “
Do you mean in a physical way? Sorry to be blunt but sometimes it’s good to lay it out open to look at it in a harsh light. Don’t go there. That would be the ultimate kick into chaos and unhappiness, I warn you.
Don’t destroy the lucky life you‘ve got.
My guess is, this kind of EA where you support each other and have these warm feelings without wanting to change into an exclusive official relationship is only possible because you‘ve got your happy background of supporting SO and happy family.
If that gets into turmoil, the feelings for your LO would shift too and you wouldn’t be able to just enjoy the good sides any more.
This EA is only nurturing and happy for you because of your happy life in the background, and for her it’s a kind of escape from her not so happy relationship.
If you risk your family and that gets into chaos, you wouldn’t have the spare magnanimity and support for LO, for example for her passivity with her SO.
It’s just a theory… but enough to really warn you not to risk what you‘ve got for something that might only be in existence because of what you’ve got (sorry, I cannot express myself well).
I‘m like Speedwagon, sometimes I envy you, and sometimes I see it all tumbling down for you in the future and am scared for you.
Lost in Space says
Hi Mila!
I enjoy your stubbornness not letting go of your theory about how our mutual LE may be the only thing allowing LO to keep putting up with her SO and is actually keeping her from moving on to something real and better… I’ll just state again that she put up with him for 20 freaking years before I ever entered the picture! Historically speaking, she put up with him for 20 years before me, and now for 1 year with me. I don’t think I’m the deciding factor.
I do believe that for her to eventually make a big change – either to leave him or really get firm about demanding better treatment from him – she needs to learn to really love herself and respect herself, to believe that she’s worthy of love, and believe that another good man might actually find her desirable and want to be with her if she did eventually leave her SO. That all is less likely to happen when the only prominent male voices in her life have been her misogynistic SO and the echos of her misogynistic & abusive father.
Regardless of how wrong it is to be engaged in an emotional affair, I do firmly believe that I’ve had positive effects on her self-esteem and self-respect and self-love. She’s told me as much, and I can clearly see it in her – she has a lot more self confidence, more belief in her ability to accomplish hard things, she’s quicker to get herself out of self-destructive thought spirals, seems to find it easier to at least sometimes think positive things about herself and imagine a positive future for herself. She’s laughing and smiling more, and crying and self-isolating less. She still has a lot of negative self-talk in her head, but she’s told me that oftentimes now when she’ll be beating herself up over something, her inner monologue will be interrupted by my voice in her head telling her that she is good enough and that things are going to be ok. That means the world to me.
When I think about taking things further, that can mean different things. Sometimes yeah it means sexually. I’m very physically attracted to her, and the emotional connection only deepens that desire sometimes. It also sometimes means non-sexual physical contact. I wish I could just hug her every day. When she’s feeling down, I really wish I could just hold her close for awhile and comfort her. When she’s telling me about a movie she watched over the weekend, sometimes I can’t help but imagine us cuddling up on the couch watching a movie together. I’d love to go for a walk with her and just hold her hand.
I also sometimes daydream about just spending more time together, even if in a totally non-physical way. I go for a little walk at lunch most days, and I’ve always wished we could just go for a walk together (she always says it would be really nice and she wants to do it someday, but is too afraid of people seeing us together and talking). I’ve always dreamed of us both calling in sick one day and just spending a day together going to the beach or something like regular couples do. Or just taking our kids to the park together to sit on a bench and talk while the kids play (again I’ve shared all of these daydreams with her and she always says it sounds really nice but it wouldn’t be appropriate and we both know it would lead to other things).
It’s actually pretty easy for me to tell myself that I don’t actually want to have any sort of sexual relationship with her, and to mostly believe that. I know 100% that would be the beginning of the end for everyone, and I also feel like it would undermine everything else that we’ve built in our relationship. I think it actually means a lot to her to have a man love her for who she truly is inside, and not just for her body or how she looks, and to really truly care about just wanting to know her and talk to her and hear all the things in her head without it just being a means to an end to get sex.
The daydreams about spending more time together in a non-sexual way are a lot harder for me to fight. They don’t seem so unambiguously wrong or as potentially catastrophic (although I know it certainly could be), and I just miss her so badly when we don’t get to spend much time together. But again I just have to keep reminding myself that having someone see us walking around the lake together or sitting at a table out at lunch together could end up being just as disastrous to our SOs as anything else could be, and remind myself to just be content with what we have now. That’s one of my biggest challenges right now.
Mila says
LiS,
ah, you sound so wistful when you talk about taking a walk with her or having lunch.
I do understand you. Even though I was sexually attracted to my LOs, my favourite fantasy about my last LO and also current LO was/is just lying in bed next to him, holding hands and cuddling, nothing more, just being close to each other in a warm and tired way. It usually cropped up when I was worn out after a long day, but it was even stronger than any sexual fantasy..
You know, it sounds all so endearing and right until I remember your SO and family. It’s unsolvable.
Your LO is actually quite right in insisting that such harmless things will lead to want more and more, I guess.
To be content with what I‘ve got is my big challenge too. I text with LO consistently every day, and now I find myself wishing to see him just the two of us before he leaves again. The last times we saw each other were always with SOs around.
I miss our connection when we talk without people around. But I know it’s just the road back to obsession and I would destroy good work.
Also, sometimes I‘ve the feeling of being a second wife to him when his wife isn’t around, in terms of support etc. That doesn’t sit too well with me, as I feel sometimes too much taken for granted. And I’ve got SO who also needs support and care.
How do you do it, taking care of two women‘s emotional needs and their needs to feel important and listened to? And with your family to worry about on top of it… I kind of admire that, but it worries me, too.
Mila says
Concerning your LO and if you are an incentive or hindrance to her leaving her SO, I just have to take your word for it, I guess you are right and you know her.
If they are already 20 years together, maybe the children are soon grown up and then she might feel more free to leave. I feel for her!
Lost in Space says
Hi Mila!
“How do you do it, taking care of two women‘s emotional needs and their needs to feel important and listened to?”
I meant to reply a few days ago but then haven’t had time to write for a few days, but then I was thinking about your comment this afternoon while LO was texting me in tears about something that happened to her at work and SO was texting me at the same time about how frustrated she was with the kids, and I was texting back with both of them being supportive, and then I talked with LO for half an hour on the drive home and she was happy and laughing by the time we said goodnight, and then I got home and cuddled and chatted with SO for awhile and then took the kids out for a couple hours so she could get some peace and quiet… and all of it felt great to me! Honestly supporting other people is what I thrive on. Especially if it’s SO or LO. The times when either of them turn to me for support and I’m able to make them feel better, those are the best times for me. Conversely, the worst times are when one or both of them is withdrawn and depressed and I know they’re hurting but they won’t let me be supportive, and that hurts a lot. I hate that feeling of disconnectedness more than any other feeling.
Honestly a perfect day for me is when I spend the day taking good care of patients at work, and then have a nice chat with LO and we make each other feel good, and then I go home and spend some nice time with SO, help my older son with his homework, play with the littles, do some chores around the house, work out, watch a little basketball and cuddle up SO and go to bed. That’s pretty much the perfect day for me, and supporting both of the women in my life doesn’t drain me at all, it actually energizes me and makes me feel satisfied and fulfilled. And it’s all pretty nice, honestly… except for that one little thing about infidelity, right? Like, it all feels so right and good, but I know in reality it’s so wrong, and one text message at the wrong time could bring everything crashing down. But I don’t want to change anything either, and I just keep imagining things can stay like this forever…
Mila says
LiS,
It really sounds like juggling! But it seems to make you happy. But then, you suffer from time to time ,no?
I‘m a bit at a loss what to say here. I think when I was in high limerence like in my first where it was reciprocated , I was just not wholly there for my family. I mean, I was there and they didn’t lack anything, everybody was ok, I also enjoyed my family, and maybe they even profited from me not getting hung up on some family things.
But me myself, I didn’t „live“ it properly because my thoughts were constantly diverted. And the kids will soon be grown up and out of the house and I would hate the feeling that I spent all the years I had living with them (that will never come back)only with half my mind there.
That’s why I‘m really determined to let go this time.
It seems that you‘ve got the energy to live both lives wholly, I just hope you are not deceiving yourself.
Limerent nurse says
Hi Lost in Space,
I think you are having a mutual limerent experience that is probably now an emotional affair, which is why you feel conflicted, torn and guilty. If your wife finds out, will she accept it? My husband was furious when he found out about the first one (before I even knew about limerence). But it was also him forcing me to no contact that kicked my butt out of the mutual limerent experience.
But YOU know what your doing and you know about limerence, so you already know what you’re doing and how it can be fixed. I just hope you can handle it without causing pain to your SO. Emotional affairs are very tricky; I personally have decided to not partake in limerence or emotional affairs. Even though it hurts at first, at least you’ll be back to feeling not guilty and shameful. But the longer you remain an emotional affair, the harder it will be to get out of it.
I am sorry for your family difficulties — as an ICU nurse myself I see these things ever day, but it’s never easy for the families who are involved. I wish you and your family all the best.
Nisor says
Hello Lis,
Sorry for all the affliction that has befallen you. Some way to start the new year ah? First of all, you need not start being hard on yourself on trying to solve your emotional issues with LO at this time when you need all the support you can get. There’s always time to do that in the future since you’re so much invested on her, now is not the time to think about solving this issue . You need to relax, be calmed now to help your parents go through their ordeal with your sister’s issues. It’s a heavy cross they are carrying with a child doing these attempts to her own life. Very sad and depressing, they must feel helpless.
Your SO behaved kindly towards you and very understanding, that’s what’s SOs do in a relationship, stand by their partner. As one gets older, things tend to get more complicated, as children start to grow and do their own things, parents worry for their future, health problems start to show up, a brand new set of problems unfold in front of us, so one needs to have one’s act together and padded down to deal with different events which show up unexpectedly.
I’m not trying to scare you, but truth is truth. One cannot avoid these type of problems happening, it’s part of life.
We have been talking about stoicism , how much is needed specifically on these circumstances you’re going through. You must be feeling like a juggling 🤹♀️ actor trying to cope with handling all the balls without letting them fall… not even one of them .
What I’m trying to say is : buckle up an try to go through this hard ride unharmed. There’s time after the ride to think things over. Not now.
Be calmed and relaxed as much as you can, your family and parents need you to be strong to offer a helping hand. A big bear hug for you. Blessings.
Lost in Space says
Limerent Nurse, thank you for putting it plainly. We’ve been in an emotional affair for over a year now and would completely agree that the longer we remain in it, the harder it is to get out. If only I could go back in time and end it a few weeks or months after it started… but I know I’m not helpless even now and I could end it if I actually chose to do so. It’s good to at least be reminded of that fact.
Speedwagon says
@LIS
Hi Lis, good to hear an update from you but sorry to hear of your family difficulties. Hope you manage through.
I have such mixed emotions about you and your LO. On one hand I am envious of the attention and affection your LO provides you. I can imagine those feelings of euphoria you must get from her are intoxicating. It sounds so appealing to me. On the other hand I want to smack you across the face and say knock it off with LO. You are deep into a months long EA and it’s heading for disaster with SO eventually.
I think you know the right answer is to expel LO from your life on marital moral grounds, but I acknowledge that it seems intense and complicated and very difficult and wish you wisdom in all of it.
Imho says
Hi LiS, you are dealing with a lot. I had a family member in shockingly similar circumstance and ICU is serious.
Maybe take this difficult time you are going through and observe these more intense emotions you are feeling. It’s like a shift change, due to circumstance that helps jar you into reality and hopefully reflect on your marriage and other areas of work and life etc.
I guess everything is heightened right now with a reminder that we are all mortal and not getting any younger ourselves ?
So maybe to reflect on what do you and your SO want for the future, what are your plans and dreams to do together? How does LO feature in this plan long term?
Can you not dial down this EA into something more normal and open friendship as Mila asks ? Keeping it secret with rules and boundaries etc surely fires up the intensity, making LO interactions feel special and exciting. Take this away this and maybe is less intoxicating.
Best wishes
Lost in Space says
Speedwagon, I remember last year you and me talking a lot about the idea of a “controlled emotional affair” as something that we both thought we wanted with our respective LOs… I’ve basically been in a “controlled EA” for over a year now! And it takes a whole lot of work to keep the “controlled” part going… and it’s somehow never enough and always too much all at the same time. Careful what you wish for I guess. I basically have spent the last year swinging between anxious and down when LO and I are too distant, and guilty and a little scared anytime we start getting too close – sometimes both ends of the spectrum in the same day!! It’s really really hard to keep walking this narrow line and trying not to fall off.
I think to some extent I’ve lost faith that I can end this EA. We’ve agreed to end it a half dozen times in the last year, made it anywhere from a couple weeks to almost a couple of months, and every single time we’ve gravitated back to each other. Nowadays I sort of feel like “why bother going through all the pain of separating from her when I just know we’ll end up back together pretty soon anyway”. Which I know is just weakness and excuse-making, but it is how I feel anytime I think about how I should end it.
Nisor says
Quote for today:
“Nothing you love is lost, not really. Things, people- they always go away, sooner or later. You can’t hold them, anymore than you can hold moonlight. But if they have touched you, if they’re inside you, then they’re still yours. The only things you ever really have are the ones you hold inside your heart.” (Bruce Coville)
A happy weekend to all limerents.
Speedwagon says
I tried to make the whole ‘controlled EA’ thing happen. I wanted LOs attention and affection so bad. But she just really had no meaningful affection she was willing to provide me. She just won’t initiate and our input becomes very lopsided. I have since distanced myself so now we effectively have no personal relationship at all. Just a few brief work interactions each day. It’s sad to me that our closeness has dissolved and even sadder she doesn’t seem to care, but it also keeps me the most emotionally stable to be disengaged from her. Looking forward to the day she exits my life.
Bewitched says
Hi Speedwagon,
The way you describe the current state of your LE, its almost weird thinking you were ever close to her. I think its so instructive how your perception of her has changed. And I think it’s very useful for the rest of us to imagine that we too might “go off” our LOs. I mean, who wants to be with someone a bit less satisfying emotionally than we need or want (or deserve)?
Speedwagon says
Hi Bewitched,
We were only somewhat close because I pursued and initiated a lot of relationship with her. She would be receptive if I pursued, but she rarely ever initiated. I realized I desire equal effort and was tired of getting crumbs. So I stopped pursuing.
Bewitched says
Hi Speedwagon,
Its fascinating that you identified that deficit, though. I think lots of us here gloss over that and bargain our way out of it. I mean, if I analyse what i like about my LO, he comes second place to my SO on almost every score.
My SO is also gorgeous to look at and a complete match relationally (attentive, funny, intellectually stimulating). Why on earth do I have this yearning for LO? He is not as good a match for me relationally, although what I do get from him is a devotion that he cant hide – he very clearly finds me attractive and would probably devote a lot of time and energy on me if we were both available. He is attractive (to me) but I think most people would day that my SO is much more attractive. Summing all the other stuff that I find important in a relationship means that this LE does not make sense. So why am I hooked? I have obviously trained myself on him and now need to de-train. I guess constant exposure may help that (?) – controversial I know. But we met and glimmered years and years ago, so this is all stretching on a bit now.
Mila says
Bewitched,
also same here. My SO is definitely more attractive, more capable of many things, more suitable for me, there was never any doubt- I’d even conceitedly say that even me, I‘m more attractive than him, more socially adept etc, and still I‘m stuck in this stupid LE.
Yes to detraining! I‘m on it.
Speedwagon says
LO can be such a paradox to me at times. When I do initiate face to face she can be very engaging with me and it feels like we have a certain special chemistry in our interactions. She can seem like she hangs on my every word, we banter well, and she has very strong eye contact and flirty like mannerisms with me.
On the other hand, the positive face to face chemistry is where it stops. She does not initiate hardly any personal interactions with me. If I text she seems disinterested and texting dies off quick and she never initiates texting with me. So I ultimately end up feeling like she is indifferent to me because she will not go out of her way to build relationship with me.
If I wanted to keep pursuing interactions with her I could probably grow some level of friendship but it always leads to strong disappointment on my end when she does not reciprocate initiation. I want it to be mutual interest and desire and it’s just not. Its just better now if I stay away and let any personal relationship with her die.
ABCD says
Hello friends. Thought this is a good time to share my updates. I seem to be making steady progress now. The urge to seek out LO, whether in person or virtually is diminishing. Had a super brief interaction with LO, and it did not affect me much, it was under control, I felt good about how I felt. I feel that LO has also realised it is not a good idea to seek me, so in that sense, perhaps we are going through the same stage together.
The bright side – I am not able to put more effort into my daily life activities. I am generally feeling happier, and seem to be out of my mild depression. Will I see LO soon, how will it go when I see her? These questions used to cause loads of anxiety earlier, but now, do not bother me. In fact, I am confident of my behavior if/when I see LO. If I don’t see her, that’s okay too, no biggie. Overall, it feels that I am free now, from something that had a hold on me.
What worked? The NC helped big time, I think. Plus, I am making active efforts to not use LO for mood regulation, and trying not to ruminate about her much. This is becoming easier than before. Or perhaps, the LE is running its course.
All the best to you all, as you navigate your LEs, good luck!
Imho says
Hi ABCD, that is really good to read ! So pleased you are happier and freer. Keep up the good work on your exercising etc too. You are a good inspiration .
Be prepared if LO may change her frequency of contact in the future. These unpredictables can present a wobble, but you sound in a great place to stay on the right path.
ABCD says
Thanks IMHO!
Mila says
Hi ABCD,
I’m so glad for you. You really are a good example for all us, doing all consistently- exercising, stopping ruminations, going NC- admirable!
There might be some slight up and downs, but I think you are on a good path here.
I‘ll meet my LO for an hour today, but I‘m not that anxious either. I suggested it in a weak moment (since he leaves town again soon)when I missed him, but then his reply was such that I got a bit tired of him and his ways again, so I‘m down to reality and don’t expect much of this meeting.
Please keep the good work up, ABCD, and be it only to be a shining example for me…
Imho says
Hi Mila,
I hope the meeting goes well today. I meant to ask how was the business trip? Did it help or hinder the LE ?
I was taking no updates as positive.
Indeed Abcd is star pupil this week !
Mila says
Hi IMHO,
the business trip itself was really nice because it was a town I like much, it’s such a contrast to my (also beautiful) town, and I met 3 friends I also like very much and don’t see that often.
It didn’t help the LE at all because we texted a lot, last time we were together in this town, and I think we were both a bit nostalgic for all our past business trips together.
Ah, I don’t know. I kind of trust time to wear the LE down now. It goes up and down, but with every little disappointment moment and clear sight it stays down a bit more. At least I hope so..
how are you doing? Still texting with LO?
Mila says
„And moment of clear sight“, if that’s English at all
Mila says
Also, sorry that my phone always spells your name in capitals. It saved it from past conversations , I guess..
Imho says
That’s good to hear. Meeting friends is always good I find.
Nostalgia is lovely but also potentially dangerous!
For me the feast of recent contact has inevitably turned to famine as the brakes come on as we maybe both aware when too much contact could be verging on inappropriate.
Its ok actually.
I think time helps to maybe run the LE course down as you said and for me the more frequent contact recently has maybe accelerated that time frame towards less heightened limerence. Let’s see.
Mila says
Hi Imho,
„and for me the more frequent contact recently has maybe accelerated that time frame towards less heightened limerence.“
That’s interesting because it contradicts a bit the NC theory. I also think that sometimes more contact can lead to more contact with reality opposed to fantasies, which then accelerates the development of the whole thing.
Well, my meeting got hijacked by his SO;), at least I guess so, because suddenly I’m asked to their house instead of meeting him in town for a short coffee. I already noticed him fidgeting around with the meeting. While for me it’s no problem to tell SO/family that I’ll go out for a coffee with him or anyone really, it seems to be quite uncommon for them to meet someone on their own. At work I saw him on his own all the time, of course, but now that he’s left I hardly see him alone. I don’t think it’s because he wouldn’t want to, it’s because it’s not usual for them and his SO is a strong woman, I do admire how she managed that now again, she knows how to handle the situation, really.
I notice that I yearned to see him alone, just to have a chat with him in our own rhythm like in old days, and that I got immediately annoyed when he started fidgeting, and immediately dropped the yearning, even before his SO got involved.
One part of me doesn’t want to see him/them at all, one part knows that it’s all for the best to see them together as it reinforces a normal friendship, one part of me is sad not to get my warm special feelings with him.
We all know which part is the sensible one, but, he’ll, it’s always a struggle and I’m quite tired of it.
Mila says
It does sound good, your development with more contact and now less, maybe you can let go of LE more easily now, especially since he’s so far away.
Your LO sounds more sensible than mine. With mine I don’t really understand that he texts so much when he makes it so difficult to see each other and when he‘s only interested in a normal friendship and not limerent. I don’t get it.
You both seem to know better what’s approach what not.
Mila says
D*mn! What’s appropriate, not „approach“
Imho says
Hi Mila,
“That’s interesting because it contradicts a bit the NC theory. I also think that sometimes more contact can lead to more reality opposed to fantasies, which then accelerates the development of the whole thing.”
Yes agree. I think it depends on each person’s situation and willingness to let go. I did try NC but the pedestal fantasy didn’t abate. The long-distance added more fairydust and thrills somehow.
Since the increased contact , less pedestal idolisation for sure and this is a human being.
Recently, it’s like a shift change in my brain has happened, like an ultimatum to myself, either I can be normal and grounded in this friendship and if I can’t handle it then I know that ultimately I will have to apply NC and will have to let go. “So there you go lizard brain – deal with it” ha ha!
Sorry to hear LO messing you about a bit on your meetup . I love your use of the term fidgeting in this context ! It’s a great word. Your English is very good btw.
I wonder why he enjoys the online texting more than real life interactions. maybe it’s a male introvert thing. Maybe more parity and feels more in control in messaging than eye to eye. Also if he spoke on phone or met you that often he probably knows it’s too much. I would be tempted to ask him actually – do you message your other friends as frequently as me ?
Mila says
Hi Imho,
„either I can be normal and grounded in this friendship and if I can’t handle it then I know that ultimately I will have to apply NC and will have to let go“
I know I‘m standing before the same decision, but I seem to have difficulties. Actually I don’t know why. It’s not that I die from desire the minute I see him. I often get annoyed with him for being passive or righteous or single-minded. He‘s not as physically attractive as my last LOs.
Today I was quite calm and ok with the situation, his SO actually invited the other couple again too- quite fascinating how she turned a coffee-date from LO and me into a 3 couple-event, just without my SO (I asked him if he would like to come, but he didn’t want to).
But maybe he‘s behind it all and wants to avoid seeing me alone? I don’t know, I think not, I think it’s her and she knows exactly what she’s doing, and he is too passive and naive, and also -this is the point I really should tell myself over and over- not keen enough to see me on my own.
I’m sure I‘m very important to him, I don’t think he‘s got other friends that are that important- but still not enough to find a way to spend some time with me alone.
I honestly don‘t know why I cannot just let him go. It feels like an alien force. I can see that he’s not that attractive , that he‘s not able to make more effort to see me simply because he‘s too passive, inhibited and uptight.
But I still think about him etc. Is it just such a habit?
„ I would be tempted to ask him actually – do you message your other friends as frequently as me ?“
Yes, I‘m tempted to ask these kind of questions, not this particular one because I know the answer (no, he doesn’t), but I can think of a few others.
But these are exactly the kind of questions I shouldn’t ask- it sounds flirty, and he will either shy away from answering or answer something like „what do you think?“, honestly admitting that he texts me most, but without any hint that that could mean something more than friendship, and I would stand there again as the one who pushes boundaries by asking flirty questions…
For the hundredth time I resolve not to text, to shut it down, to dial back to a really casual friendship. Starting by not texting him this evening and not initiating texts in future.
Maybe I succeed this time..
Imho says
Hi Mila, well I hope there was at least some nice cake on offer at this coffee get together yesterday! Mmm, maybe I should bake cakes and host coffee mornings…? I digress.
It’s funny you say the desire isn’t (always) there and often bit of infuriation. It could be caused by the high frequency of messaging that doesn’t reflect the frequency of in-person interactions, as you say. my best friend lives nearby and it would be weird if I messaged her everyday (I don’t) but hardly ever saw her 121. He surely must know this deep down too.
Anyway, I think dialing down is the best. Maybe increase your messaging to someone else who is more fun. I sense you are a chatty people person. I’ve recently increased my messaging to another friend who is doing interesting things in her life right now and is quite inspiring. A kind of transference!
Mila says
Imho,
funny that you mention cake, I cut out sugar and refined flour since Friday, and although LO knows that and also the woman of the other couple is pregnant ,developed a bit of diabetes and isn’t allowed sugar(he knows that too), he baked chocolate buns and set them ob the table.
I actually don’t mind other people eating sugar around me at all, but this let me doubt his sensitivity again…
You should host coffee and cake mornings! I would love to come (once I eat sugar again, in a few weeks 🙈)
Also funny that you mention transference, I vowed not to transfer limerence again, but I was so frustrated yesterday with myself and this feeling of being stuck in an unpleasant limerent bog, that I considered transference… but I wouldn’t know to whom actually, and it’s of course a bad idea.
I transfer my need to text LO on LWL, as you noticed:)… I’m sure my frequent posts annoy some people, but it really helps me to stay away from texting and feeling bad at the moment.
I have to ponder about possible transference to healthy things.
Hm, am I a chatty person?
I‘m sure most people in my life would say no. But I like to write, back in my youth I wrote many letters and now I like texting. And I like chatting in person too, but only with enough „unchatty“ time for me alone in between.
I‘m surely chatty here.
I just met a friend for tea with her lovely baby and feel better.
Imho says
Hi Mila, loving the cake chat. I like to bake from time to time for others especially a birthday cake. Im trying to impose ‘no processed foods’ and low carbs at this time, although I’m still tempted !
My transference comment was meant to be on messaging to another friend not seek a new LO ! I think you know that. Or shift to LwL as you are doing. Dangerous to even consider a new LO. I think Lovisa is quite an exception in achieving that. 🙂
Mila says
Hi IMHO,
of course I know what you meant;) but I was as desperate yesterday as to consider real transference. I transferred already two times- not really on purpose, but I think my mind snatched at a welcome distraction from the former LE, and I have to say that it worked insofar that it let the last painful LEs fade out and that the LEs got gradually less severe, so there’s the temptation to say maybe to transfer every time to an even milder LE will lead ultimately to no LE in the end.
But actually this LE has potential to be the last one without transference. I think the few personal interactions we had help enormously. I will focus on limiting texting and getting balance between texting and real life.
I love baking too, not too complicated stuff (LO loves to bake sourdough bread and macarons and generally time-consuming stuff), but I love baking for the kids and for Christmas etc.
But that’s on hold now! I actually don‘t miss the sugar at the moment, it feels quite good.
Yay for us for trying to live healthily 💪🏻💪🏻!
Imho says
Thanks Mila! Yay for us indeed (although I had choc biscuits for breakfast yesterday! Was bit stressed, but still no excuse)
I didn’t realise you had ‘others’ before and unconsciously transferred. Gosh. I can’t imagine that but I maybe need to be mindful that could happen. I hope not with the insight I now have.
Let’s hope your experience is like a graph with a linear decreasing line over time (with a couple of blips on the way)…
Mila says
Imho,
yes, I transferred…but won’t happen this time!
Don’t do it. It actually is a line going down and each limerence kind of saved me from the last, but it’s better to skip all that and just stop.
Suddenly I seem to be surrounded by people eating lots of cake, sweets, pain au chocolat etc, but funnily enough I don’t mind so much. Once I got going I can easily not eat it.
I‘m more worried that the overall change of not eating pasta, flour, coffee seems to do me no good yet, I don’t feel good in my gut and am quite tired. The upside is that I don’t have energy for limerent feelings😅
Bewitched says
You don’t feel good yet Mila, but you will. I read somewhere that it takes a few weeks to establish a new habit. You are facing lots of microchanges right now (diet, phone/texting, LO) and we are here for you! You can do it 🌈🤞!
Stick to it, give yourself a couple of weeks, then re-evaluate.
My own regimen is as follows:
1) no pain au chocolat
2) reduce dessert after dinner
3) no more thinking about u-know-who (includes pleasant memory curation and mood regulation, rumination, getting anxty….)
4) enjoy weekend with the family
I am writing it here as a constant reminder….
Mila says
Bewitched,
some people might say there are too many „no“s in your plan, as in not enough to say „no pain au chocolat“, „no LO“, you also have to say what you will do instead when the craving hits…
I‘m unfortunately on „stare at your phone instead“.
ABCD says
Thanks Mila!. I hope that your meeting today with LO goes well, and that you feel good post meeting. You got this!
Mila says
Hi ABCD,
I already ranted about the change of plan to Imho:) but now I think it’s all for the best, fate/SO/maybe LO himself work well towards inhibiting any closeness with LO apart from texts, and I think it’s another sign to cut down on texting. Texts should mirror reality.
Thanks for the encouragement, will think of you all rooting for me while drinking tea at his house. The last two times I saw him were with my or his family, and actually both times I wished it to end soon because I felt awkward with SOs and couldn’t talk to him in peace and quiet. A bad sign of limerence.
This time I’ll try to enjoy seeing them both and really see him as just a friend.
Bewitched says
Super well done ABCD!
Its great to see you continue your progress. I was a bit worried that you would regress when you had contact. But you didn’t – I can’t believe that you did so well!
My LE is see-sawing a bit between more positive / more negative thoughts, but without going too far in either direction. We had a lot of contact about work and that was virtual, so it was fine. I know that I am going to see him in person in the future (this is where it always goes ‘nuclear’). I find that it usually takes me about 2 months to recover my equanimity after an in-person encounter. But, on the plus side, it is fairly predictable.
I am so glad to hear that you have clawed your way out of the blues to reach this point. I find that the key thing is, when I am feeling good about how my LE is under more control, to concentrate on remembering that feeling/those feelings and to pay attention to them. If I slide down the slope in the future, I can bring myself back to this point, or remember being at this point. And I can know that positive progress is possible again. Its like going over the same ground over and over, isn’t it?
Take care and have a great day.
Mila says
„ Its like going over the same ground over and over, isn’t it?“
That’s what I feel too. In some past post I mentioned the snail‘s house metaphor that a friend told me- going round and round in widening circles, passing the same place again and again, but in the end reaching the exit.
So your face to face encounters are only every two months?
Bewitched, I can imagine that next time you see him, you will be a bit less affected, like ABCD, simply because you wrote about it here.
Bewitched says
Hey Mila,
I am thinking of you now, as you go to your afternoon tea with you LO and SO. We are in similar boat – trying to normalise things and being partially successful.
You mentioned that it feels a bit ‘grey’ somewhere up the thread. But that’s where the LE is inevitably headed, if it is to be managed. Grey is inevitable.
As IMHO said, its a choice of either let go of LO entirely, or dial things right back. I too am dialing back. ABDC and yourself as well, Mila, I think?
This may be the only way to keep LO in our lives, or, in the case of myself and ABCD, to manage interactions with an occasional co-worker.
Thank you Mila for your snail analogy “going round and round in widening circles, passing the same place again and again, but in the end reaching the exit” I am not sure I ever want to reach the exit :). But I do want to live in a calm way without the expectation of constant validation from him. I want him to be ok as well. I do wonder if he gets down (like I do). Although I tend to be quite resilient and I imagine others are more prone to those feelings, when limerent.
All strength to you
Mila says
Hi Bewitched,
I wrote a lot of my ruminations about the meeting in my post to Imho, it’s actually for you too, since you thought of me.
I can tell you both and also ABCD that I really appreciate you being here in writing.
Your words help me, I don’t feel so lost in my LE, I really felt kind of supported through this tea time with LO and his SO (and the other couple, of which the man was limerent for me years ago. Actually quite a mixture of people, but everybody so civilized and likeable to each other.. I mean we are all friends, but there seems a lot of unsaid stuff hovering there, when I come to think of it).
Yes, grey it is, but I agree with you and Imho that dialling back seems the only way.
By the way, I can completely relate to your up and down emotions with LO- one time getting annoyed and getting the feeling that he doesn’t care at all, and then this urge to protect and nurture him. Maybe our LOs are similar.
Bewitched says
Hey Mila,
“By the way, I can completely relate to your up and down emotions with LO- one time getting annoyed and getting the feeling that he doesn’t care at all, and then this urge to protect and nurture him. Maybe our LOs are similar”
It was you who suggested myself and IMHO had tbe same LO (the water sports enthusiast), remember? Could be the same as your guy too (shy, passive, and completely infuriating?)🤔🙊😆
I jest. Maybe we all just need to have a little more fun?
Mila says
Hi Bewitched,
ha, imagine us three finding that we have the same LO!
Today I‘m kind of frustrated with myself and it’s not easy to see a fun side..
I just don’t understand myself. He‘s so clearly deficient in some things, social skills, sometimes so obtuse, and he‘ll never get out of his a bit restricted world.
What’s there to yearn for?
I‘m annoying myself.
Imho says
Ha ha Bewitched !
That would be ironic, to all have the same LO. This could be a movie storyline. And yes I vote for more fun.
Did I read it that you only see your LO every couple of months, similar to me (except mine is normally longer than that and unpredictable the when/ if). you don’t need to answer I’m just interested in the parallels
Bewitched says
Hi Mila and IMHO,
I see him less frequently than every two months. But we have reasonably frequent virtual meetings or messages. That virtual bit is a bit unpredictable, but manageable, as it is always work related and there are almost always other people. I think it means that my limerence is within bounds in terms of interactions. However, when we see one another it is for a few days at a time and sparks fly. Then it takes me two months to recover as the euphoria and elation is clear on both sides. I go back to virtual interactions with him (+others) and things calm down again. After months of that, I can begin to feel neglected, (Ha!), but its not real, its mostly in my head and I feel that he does think about me. Just maybe not enough when I am going through very bad times (I described these in another post).
God – I think we all need to validate ourselves – dress well, eat well, work on our figures, but some new clothes, get great hair…..fall in love with ourselves all over again.
I need to rush away now but will try to think of something funny for later 😉
Mila says
Hi Bewitched,
Interesting. I’m in a complete other field of work, it wouldn’t be possible to see each other so infrequently in person, other people‘s work relationships are fascinating for me.
Weren’t you the one who worked on her body anyway and looks great now, like ABCD? I should put more work into that, probably.
I‘m actually not sure myself where this need of validation comes from. I mean I can guess it’s from childhood etc, but I can also say that I‘ve got a much better self confidence now. I‘m not so keen on delving into possible childhood stuff, I‘m sure a lot stems from there, but I don’t know if it really helps me to know exactly what and why, I prefer to deal with myself in the present. Maybe it’s not very wise, but apart from limerence, I seem to cope not that bad without therapy or trying to sort my childhood traumata myself.
Mila says
But maybe that’s the problem, my reluctance to deal with my childhood! I read my last post and it sounds kind of conceited, but it was meant in a ruminating, doubting myself way…
Bewitched says
Hey Mila,
Like we both posted to Speedwagon, I think that we can get somewhere by querying why we want an arguably less attractive LO when our very attractive SO is already in our lives? I think some other LwL posters are probably quite puzzled about this and think this is selfish and a shame when they perhaps would love to have such a SO. As you said:
“I honestly don‘t know why I cannot just let him go. It feels like an alien force. I can see that he’s not that attractive, that he‘s not able to make more effort to see me
simply because he‘s too passive, inhibited and uptight.”
I agree that I have no wish to think about the origin of my need for LO validation. I have no particular childhood issues (well, nothing particularly traumatic, though more attention would have been nice). The thing is that its not going to help even if I identify this. The question is what to do. We need that validation from our SOs and ourselves and the only way to do that is to feel better about that bond. As well as getting involved in things that give us lots of positive feedback and reinforcement. I think feeling that you look your best also works for some of us. That is what I am trying to do. Its one day at a time, bit by bit. Well done (!!!!!) on giving up the sugar by the way.
“I transfer my need to text LO on LwL, as you noticed:)… I’m sure my frequent posts annoy some people, but it really helps me to stay away from texting and feeling bad at the moment.”
Nah, keep posting please 🙂 I get a lot from it and loads of other people do too. Hearing someone externalise their thought process is very helpful indeed.
Sending lots of positive vibes.
Mila says
Bewitched,
yes I feel quite selfish myself that I’ve already got a great SO and still cannot cope with limerence. I mean of course there are things in my relationship that could be better or where my SO, too (like LO)might not behave like I would like him to (I guess it’s the same for him), but it’s nothing severe and I feel that it’s not really the reason behind limerence.
It would be much easier to say a deficiency in my marriage causes limerence, and when I solve the deficiency, limerence is gone.
Some deficiencies fire limerence, of course! but I feel somehow that the root of it isn’t lying there.
At the moment it feels like an illness, to be honest, some ancient disease or plague😂
Thanks for the positive vibes and for listening to me ranting!
ABCD says
Thanks Bewitched! What has helped me during this process is that I think that she has also stepped back. Perhaps, both of us realise the pitfalls. So, now, the chances of LO encounters have greatly reduced. If either one of us steps back, and the other attempts a pull back in, then a regression is on the cards. Yes definitely, I like this current feeling better than the highs and lows of before. Hope to continue to build on this.
I am glad that you are having “bounded” reactions to your LO. Wish you the best!
Bewitched says
Hey ABDC,
“I am glad that you are having “bounded” reactions to your LO.”
That’s painting a slightly more composed picture than the reality. I tend to fly off the handle (in my own head) with him, imagine him having loads of women on the go, imagine him getting on with his life quite nicely without worrying about me, imagine him being vain and thoughtless….then within 24/48 hours I am back to imagining him as a little puppy who needs kindness, understanding, compassion, etc, Haha, it is bonkers that all of this happens purely in my head and with zero input from him.
I sincerely believe that 95% of limerence is validation seeking….. which implies that it will go away if we work on our own self worth. I might try it (although I generally need to look quite deeply inside to find the person who needs to feel ‘worthy/seen/enough’ and so on as my self confidence is generally quite good).
Keep up the good work, ABCD!!
Adam says
I have found that reconnecting with my wife has helped greatly here lately. We spent much of the weekend together. Laying in bed and talking and trying to stay warm together. It’s been very helpful. We did have a talk about her again late Friday night but I think despite the tears it was a good talk. I didn’t want to come to work this morning because I didn’t want to leave the bed with her. Would have rather stayed with her than come to work. Ah well I guess I got this evening to look forward to.
Miss Lovisa/Nisor
In other news from this weekend Momma has agreed to met up with the pastor for coffee or something. So that is something that will be nice. Momma could probably tell the pastor more about me than I would myself. I’m not my favorite subject.
Other than church service I have found it difficult to try and pray. I guess because it has been so many years since the last time I did. Maybe my wife meeting up with the pastor will help. You two have been a great spiritual help to me and I thank you so much for it.
Nisor says
Hi Adam,
I’m so happy for you and Momma, things are getting better with you two and eventually the whole family.We praise the Lord for that. Don’t worry if you’re not praying or whatever, the important thing is that you get to the church and listen to the word, have fellowship with other people. Don’t be hard on yourself, be patient, enjoy the companionship.
I have you and MJ in my thoughts and prayers. Hugs
MJ says
Thank you Nisor.
Good to be thought of..
Lovisa says
That’s cool, Adam. I hope your meeting goes well. Thank you for the update.
MJ says
@Adam,
If its hard for you to pray, forget the formalities. Just talk to God like you would a best friend. I’m Catholic and I’ve been praying that way for years. Yes there are times for being more devout and reverent and praying prayers from the church. Reserve that time, when you at your service or wherever you worship. God knows your heart already. God already knows before you even think or speak it. So keep that in mind. Keeping you in thought Friend..
By the way, I am a terrible Catholic and a horrible Christian.
ABCD says
Hi MJ. Sorry to jump in, I have been following your LE. How are you feeling now with regards to LO?
MJ says
All good ABCD, no worries. Things are not great with LE, but lately she’s almost been on the backburner. Because I’ve been somewhat overwhelmed helping out with Dad and his issues. In a way that’s helpful in limiting my emotions of her. On top of that, I am on a different shift at work now. (My choice) That has also helped with LC. Almost making it NC. I still think of her often, but the sadness only hits if I dwell on it. Which is hard not to do since I feel like I juggle a lot between work, Dad and whatever time is left in between.
Hope that answers your question.
Adam says
Thanks MJ. I am not sure what my hangup about praying/talking to God is when I like going to church and I have enjoyed and found something said in all of the sermons that I can use to better myself as a husband and father.
Like Nisor said above I am trying to be patient with myself and not to be hard on my progress. The integrating into the congregation intimidates me and slows my progress. I still feel like an outsider or newcomer. Though I did take the time to compliment one of the sisters after service as she was wearing a very nice hat. I said women don’t wear hats fashionably much anymore. And that’w why I noticed it. Small steps I guess.
frederico says
I am finally trying very hard indeed to shake off my four-year LE because I have realised how much it is damaging me.
Every morning I wake up with a massive thump of low-mood (it feels like abject depression and anxiety) and I have to tackle the early morning tasks in simple stages. I am trying to knock myself out of rumination by distracting my thoughts as soon as I realise what is happening.
I am closing my only remaining window of memories and access by resolving not to send my LO, or his family, any more birthday or Christmas cards or messages. I had lofty ideas about keeping our formerly close friendship ticking over, in a low-key manner, until this madness passes and dissolves. LO is virtually ghosting me, perhaps through embarrassment or his own struggles. He seemingly no longer wants to know so who am I kidding?
Today, while I was looking at other angles for understanding limerence – particularly childhood experiences – I found this article and a YouTube video. I hesitated about posting a link because it is couched in very easy terms. Nevertheless I found it interesting and it joined a few more dots for me. I believe it has pushed me a bit further towards shaking off the time-wasting and destructive experience of a protracted LE. I feel optimistic. It might be helpful to someone who is recently afflicted.
The first few minutes of the 30 minute video relate to the personal history of the presenter and I found the later sections more interesting. I won’t be doing the journaling word for word, although I have recently gone back to spasmodically keeping a journal.
https://eightify.app/summary/neuroscience-and-psychology/understanding-limerence-and-childhood-trauma-journaling-for-healing
Mila says
Frederico,
I‘m sorry to hear you are still struggling. And thanks, I will definitely check this out, since I‘m struggling too.
Adam says
It will get better for you my friend. Pat yourself on the back once and a while. I started realizing I was making progress when I decided I didn’t want to think of her. Sure I still have the occasional thought, intrusive or not, but I am no longer actively dwelling on her.
Another tactic that helped me was the lack of effort on her part. If a limerent object isn’t reaching out that’s sending a message in of itself. We might know the exact message but the lack effort says a lot to us limerents. It’s facing that final realization.
And I do feel better. I enjoy my days more. Feel closer to my wife. Feel as though this limerence was all a terrible nightmare. I work on myself and our marriage. I have two sons that I have to let heal at their own pace for what I did to their mother. There is so much more healthy things for me to direct my attention to than her.
You got this frederico. And I am here for you as everyone else is. We are all in different stages, but we all have each other’s backs as well. Take care my friend.
frederico says
Thanks for such a helpful message, Adam. I didn’t really mean my post to sound quite so forlorn. I was just intending to share the link and then some emotion slipped through.
I am so glad that you feel better and are enjoying your days more. I always avidly follow your progress. It’s been a while for both of us.
Take care,
f
ABCD says
Hello Frederico. I am sorry that you are struggling. I have experienced the lows, and they are devastating. Eventually, I got tired of feeling like this, my LE is 2 years old. It is really good that you realise the negative effects of LE on you.
For me, NC combined by LO not reaching out has helped regulate the feelings to a great extent. I don’t know what the future holds, but I feel better now. Its not over, but things are improving with regards to how I am feeling on a daily basis.
I am sure things will get better for you. We are always there to support you.
frederico says
Thank you, ABCD. Helpful words.
f
Sammy says
@Frederico.
“LO is virtually ghosting me, perhaps through embarrassment or his own struggles. He seemingly no longer wants to know so who am I kidding?”
I think LOs sometimes feel overwhelmed by all the attention/affection we want to give them (or want to receive from them), even if they were open to various kindnesses in the past. There’s nothing wrong with having a lot of love to give away. But maybe you need to find another outlet for all the love you have to give?
I had a same-sex LO, and the five years of friendship we shared were fully consensual and mutually agreeable. I constantly asked my LO if what I was doing was okay, and he always said yes – he desired the bond too, and he was happy with the level of attention I gave him. But he eventually reached a point where he’d had enough and was ready to move on to the next chapter in his life.
Long story short: I didn’t do anything wrong and he didn’t do anything wrong and I don’t think any third parties did anything wrong. It was just the right time for both of us to move on. (Of course, being a limerent, I struggled with moving on). 🙂
frederico says
Thank you for your thoughtful advice, Sammy, which makes perfect sense, especially as my LO’s circumstances have changed and he now has a young child.
It is clearly time to finally move on. Memories of his affectionate words and behaviour will follow me for a while, I think, but I will gently push them to the back of my mind.
f
Adam says
I think that the one thing we do have in common frederico is both our LOs let us into their lives and that is difficult to give up. I have many pre-limerent memories. Talking about parenting with her, meeting her daughters and getting to know them. It is actually nicer to think of those pre-limerent times now. Because those are the memories of them that I want to carry with me, as I would anyone else that I miss not seeing. Not the altered state of mind that limerence made me.
Mila says
Same here, Adam. Pre-limerent memories feel best. Limerence really f..up normal nurturing relationships between people.
Imho says
Oh my ! Just checking out for today and only gone just a few hours yet so much activity on LwL! Is a Monday the most active day statistically Dr L, (after your blog post on a Saturday of course…..) ?
ABCD says
Hi Mila. Yes, I think cutting back or eliminating texting LO will really help you in navigating your LE. It may be hard at first, as you experience withdrawal, but if you hang in there long enough, it will get better, no doubt about that. In my case, I analysed that the LO interactions were causing a lot of distress, preluded by good feelings :). So, to feel better, one needs to eliminate or minimise contact. This will help you break out of high – low cycles that have trapped us all.
Good luck!
Mila says
Hi ABCD,
not sure if I‘m even out of the good feelings- phase, limerence only causing a trapped and bad feeling.
More reason to follow the straight and narrow.
Thanks as always for your kind words.
ABCD says
Hi Bewitched. Yes, you hit the nail on the head. Validation seeking is so entrenched in the LE. That is my next step – to figure out why I needed validation so badly from her. For this, I will also need to look inside, perhaps some therapy would help. These days, I have experienced that if I try to put my mind to something else, like a sports activity, then I am able to divert my mind, and feel good from that activity. So, validation can be sought from other sources, definitely.
I really get what you mean by conflicting emotions with respect to LO. When I perceived that LO was ignoring me (might be true also, who knows), I did not “like” her. However, when she sought me out, the feeling towards her changes by 180 degrees :), go figure. These is the cycle that traps us, I guess.
Sending you the best!
Problem Child says
Had he once captured her he would have found, likely enough, that the thing captured was neither interesting nor valuable… – Hugh Walpole (from Judith Paris).
ABCD says
Hello Problem Child. A lot of what you said resonates with me. As you raise a family, and get older, some monotony is bound to set in. LO provides us with a new found excitement, its like you’re younger all over again, except that you are not.
Removing LO from brain – that sounds like a really lofty goal to me. Although I am feeling better emotions wise with regards to my LE, she still pops into my thoughts everyday, many times. I still like her a lot, I will perhaps continue to do so, but its fine, I am not going to act on these feelings. I am not trying to devalue LO, as I cannot see any reason to do so. However, it may work for many people.
Its fine if SO and you do not have many hobbies in common, just pick up something that you can do, it will help.
You are absolutely right, we all need to dial back on the LE, its hard, but I have attempted it, and it seems to be bearing results. I hope that this is the case for all of us here. Good luck!!
Problem Child says
Thank you ABCD,
Well done on the dialing back! I think I am coming to a point where I’m just so exhausted with it, I can do nothing other than dial back, so it’s not a conscious effort, more that I’m beaten down. Im frankly tired of me doing most of the chasing. I deserve better (??) we all do.
Yes, a lobotomy might work??
Keep inspiring us all!
Bewitched says
Hey Problem Child,
I feel like that too. Dial back. Instead of ruminating on my LO I am going to ruminate on yours. Or Mila’s. Or IMHO’s. I love nothing better than a bit of rumination and I think that I can distract myself on here, thinking about you all, rather than thinking about him. Of course, also thinking about my lovely SO. Maybe plan something nice for us at the weekend.
Sending positive thoughts, energy and courage too X
Imho says
Hi Bewitched,
You said earlier today that you would “try to think of something funny for later” and you did it above ! Bravo ! Love it. My LO is really handsome and fit ( in my eyes) but just because it’s you, I will let you ruminate on him too 😂 ha ha !
We do have a lot of parallels on our LEs it seems. Infrequent F2F, some virtual work interactions. Maybe I message him 121 a bit more than in your situation.
I found a drafted rely to you in my notes app from earlier this month that I didn’t post in the end. I have a few of these I compose for LwL but don’t feel confident to post sometimes. I will review and share anything still useful from my ramblings.
Bewitched says
Hey IMHO
“Hi Bewitched,
You said earlier today that you would “try to think of something funny for later” and you did it above ! Bravo ! Love it. My LO is really handsome and fit ( in my eyes) but just because it’s you, I will let you ruminate on him too 😂 ha ha !”
Thank you IMHO (don’t mind if I do – mmmm – watersports 🤣!)
I had a more sobering thought about my LE this week. Normally virtual interactions with my LO are all business and I deal with them ok. But in person, there is a lot of euphoria, elation, ‘high’ feelings. I was thinking about our recent F2F interaction – it was a work thing over a series of three or four days. I definitely remember experiencing some more low feelings at the time, which was unusual (I am normally as high as a kite around him). I think it was because of the sheer futility despite the level of mutual attraction. So now even the highs are not high anymore. It’s become more like banging my head against a brick wall. I can’t remember who said that we need to dial back and tone down the LE, otherwise it will be too painful to have LO in our lives.
The irony – in order to keep LO in our lives, we need to dial it right back to a more tame version of itself (if that is even possible). Because the lows just get lower, otherwise, and they creep into interactions that were formerly great/ecstatic 🤔
I certainly feel that this process gets accelerated when you see or interact with your LO very frequently (maybe like Mila or Speedwagon do), but when its more infrequent and less F2F (like you or I, or maybe ABCD), that realisation takes a little longer.
Those are just my random thoughts. I am trying to think less, just think less about him. …