I’ve opined on many occasions that uncertainty is the rocket fuel of limerence. I’ve tended to discuss this from the perspective of flaky LOs who give mixed messages, behave unpredictably, or want to maintain some plausible deniability about their flirty friendship with a limerent. They might like the frisson but don’t like a public scene.
I recently re-watched the BBC series “Car Share”, and another perspective on romantic uncertainty finally occurred to me.
For those not familiar with the 7-year-old, very-English, cosy-comedy sleeper hit, the premise of the series is that two supermarket workers have joined their company’s new initiative to encourage car sharing (to cut emissions and burnish green marketing credentials).
The series involves John, a manager, picking up Kayleigh, a promotions assistant, and driving her to and from work every day. All we see is their conversations, and reactions to the cheesy radio show they listen to on their journey. It’s incredibly lean, witty, writing and acting, and very relatable. Naturally, romantic tension builds over the two series, until it… comes to a head.
The final episode of the second series has Kayleigh finally breaking through the hints, misunderstandings, and tentative signs of affection and just straight up asking John “Well what are we?” John, an emotionally constipated man, can’t muster an answer.
At first sight, this scene is about how a man, previously hurt in love, is unable to process his emotions and too scared to take a chance again. That’s certainly how Kayleigh reacts to the situation.
Having spent too much time overthinking this now, I’ve got stuck on another conclusion. Whatever the underlying reasons, John actively wants to stay in a state of uncertainty.
He enjoyed the ambiguity of their romance. He enjoyed the banter, the laughter, the thrill of unrealised possibility. He wanted it to carry on in the same way, nothing spoken, everything hinted at, a status quo of mutual affection that never changed into anything deeper. More attentive readers may think me a bit slow-witted to not have noticed that immediately (and they’re quite right, because my wife had to point it out to me), but I think it’s because I’m built much more like Kayleigh than John. If I see potential, I want to seize it and create something real – I feel anxiety that the potential might get lost or wasted if it’s left hanging too long.
Other people like the limbo. They love the romantic tension, the “will-we-won’t-we” excitement of living in a perpetual state of unspoken yearning. Real life will never live up to the potential, so keep the uncertainty alive as long as possible. The romantic equivalent of “anticipation is better than the real thing”.
I suppose that’s a good way of summarising it: John was high on the pleasure of anticipation, and didn’t want it to end. Kayleigh felt the anticipation was a promise, and wanted to finally open the present and see what was inside. For some people, slow-burn anticipation is glorious, for others it’s torture. We’re happy aren’t we? versus What are we?
For limerence, I think there would be a couple of obvious impacts from this sort of conflict. First, if a limerent is the personality type who enjoys the anticipation of ambiguous romance, they are likely to end up in limerence limbo. That might be thrilling for a while, but limerence does tend to progress from euphoria to person addiction if it is reinforced for too long. We might think we can stay in a stable state of delirious arousal indefinitely, but it often sours into obsession, intrusive thoughts, and emotional exhaustion. If you try to ride the high for too long it’s inevitable you’ll crash into toxic craving.
The second insight is that a “perpetual-anticipation LO” is going to be murder to try and bond with. They’re going to fight tooth and nail to not commit, to not resolve things. Like John, they’ll deflect, turn up the music, make cutting jokes, and do whatever they can to stop the limerent from tearing open the metaphorical wrapping paper.
Kayleigh finally had enough and forced the issue, but for infatuated limerents who are not so sure of themselves, it easy to believe they’ll take ambiguity over loss any day. Limerence limbo might be agony, but the death of hope is even worse.
Unfortunately, as many limerents learn to their cost, living in limbo is not neutral. You pay in time, energy, lost opportunities, and damage to other relationships, while you vainly hope that surely, eventually, LO will make a decision and put you out of your misery. Instead, they are content with the status quo. Why spoil a good thing?
So, there we go. Some haphazard musings on a gentle TV show that turned out to have some subtle insights into how mismatched expectations and miscommunication can complicate romance.
People, eh? What are we like?
“Car Share” might be billed as a comedy series. But honestly, I found that scene painful to watch. It reminded me too much of pretty much every car trip I ever took as a child with my parents. (Why can’t these two people communicate? Are they pretending not to be able to understand one another?)
From my perspective, Kayleigh is clearly angry that John can’t say he cares. John doesn’t seem to register Kayleigh’s anger. If Kayleigh is anything like my mother, she will only grow angrier and angrier as time progresses, and the relationship will deteriorate the longer her anger is allowed to grow…
Meanwhile, John, if he’s anything like my father, will be unable to see there’s anything wrong with the bond. He probably does enjoy spending time with Kayleigh as much as he enjoys spending time with any woman, and regards their interactions as pleasantly romantic, but he can’t articulate that thought.
John probably sees the relationship as equal and balanced and healthy. It’s not that he cherishes uncertainty so much as he’s blind to Kayleigh’s emotional needs. He probably enjoys it when Kayleigh “chases” him and does all the emotional heavy lifting in the relationship. But he doesn’t know why he enjoys Kayleigh’s company, or why he lets her do all the emotional work. He probably assumes that it’s just the woman’s role to do all the chasing/prompting.
An outsider will wonder why Kayleigh is seeking the love of such a dull-seeming, ordinary-looking man in the first place. Why isn’t she hung up on a Brad Pitt lookalike? Why are her dating standards so abysmally low? However, this love story is more relatable than most shown on TV screens, because it depicts in my opinion something happening between millions of men and women across the world, and most of those men and women are already married to each other.
In other words, what I think we’re witnessing is sexual differences (which neither party is willing to admit or discuss) fuelling uncertainty in a relationship – a relationship which both parties earnestly desire, or at the very least value highly.
Basically, it doesn’t matter what Kayleigh does. She will never be able to prompt John into giving her the emotional response that will make her feel secure and happy. Of course, she will get out of the car in protest and start walking away. (Secretly, she wants John to get out of the car and chase her, but that’s not going to happen. John is far too logical and impassive to get out of the car and chase a quietly enraged woman – a woman he doesn’t even know is quietly enraged).
Eventually, Kayleigh’s anger will start to take a toll on her mental health. She might become depressed. Or she might try harder to elicit a response from John. Primarily, what’s she’s looking for from John is reassurance that he loves her.
“That [limerence limbo] might be thrilling for a while, but limerence does tend to progress from euphoria to person addiction if it is reinforced for too long. We might think we can stay in a stable state of delirious arousal indefinitely, but it often sours into obsession, intrusive thoughts, and emotional exhaustion. If you try to ride the high for too long it’s inevitable you’ll crash into toxic craving.”
A succinct summary of what might be going on inside Kayleigh’s mind here. 😜
Wonderful post! I took a course in interpersonal communications once a long time back where we dissect all social behaviors according to culture and biology with the end course result of describing ourselves accordingly by these newly defined traits. The most striking discovery for me was how skewed I am in a future orientation. I’m on the extreme even for a westerner. I don’t muse or venerate the past nor am I embedded in experiencing the present. I function entirely from a state of prediction and preparation… but I never thought to examine how this propensity plays out in limerence. There is a lot I can unpack immediately in my personal situation based on this post. My LO is basically “John” and there have been times where I’ve pressed either acknowledgement of the specialness of the relationship or I’ve sought to increase levels or modes of intimacy and he can’t, or won’t, match me. It’s certainly both. There was one time where he ignored my text for a week (and yet he doesn’t ignore my coworkers’) that I gave him the very special “icy cold ————-“ indifference treatment one morning and he really didn’t like that… within a half hour he texted back… it’s a game to him… he was hurt in love a few years back. His partner of 30 years moved out and he can’t give me a clear understanding of what went wrong. “One day I get home from work and she’s got a real estate agent there and was selling the place”. Like, really LO??? … oh he frustrates me!… I won’t watch the series or even clink on the link above. It will just trigger me.
I’ve loved 4 women in my life. I said,”I love you” to three of them. Two said it back. I invested in 2 of them, LO#2 and my wife. I proposed to both of them. One accepted.
I had a similar conversation with LO #2. Before I invested in her, I asked what we were. I even used the term, “going steady.” I asked if we were a couple.
She asked me why I was asking. I told her that if we were, I’d operate under those expectations and behave accordingly. If we weren’t, I’d operate under those expectations. I left out the “and behave accordingly.” LO #2 was anything but stupid and knew what it meant.
She looked at me and said that we were a couple.
LO #2 and I attended a Navy formal. Afterwards, a buddy said that his wife called us a ” lovely pair of individuals.” I asked what he meant. He said his wife’s comment was that we looked really good together but we weren’t a couple. He said that his wife couldn’t put her finger on why but that’s how she saw it.
@Limerent Emeritus.
“LO #2 and I attended a Navy formal. Afterwards, a buddy said that his wife called us a ” lovely pair of individuals.” I asked what he meant. He said his wife’s comment was that we looked really good together but we weren’t a couple. He said that his wife couldn’t put her finger on why but that’s how she saw it.”
Ouch-y, eh? A third party being able to tell you’re not a couple. If that doesn’t ring some kind of relational death knell, I don’t know what else will… 😲
Yep,
Interestingly, my family positively loved LO #2. My friends that knew her better, not so much.
The woman I turned over to reconcile with LO #2 when we broke up the first time stood in my living room with tears streaming down her cheeks said, “She’s using you!” She was right.
Everybody has a blind spot.
In chemistry terms, LO #2 and I were a colloid. My wife and I are a solution.
@Limerent Emeritus.
“The woman I turned over to reconcile with LO #2 when we broke up the first time stood in my living room with tears streaming down her cheeks said, “She’s using you!” She was right.”
Well, I think if two people are a couple, and there’s no reason to hide the fact they’re a couple i.e. they’re ready to commit and they aren’t involved with other people at the same time, then the two people in the “couple” would definitely be happy for the world to sense that they are indeed coupled.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that emotionally-healthy people in a relationship wouldn’t want/need to be overly secretive about the fact they are in a relationship. They would want to be recognised as a couple. And they’d usually be happy to be seen that way by others.
I don’t want to cast any aspersions on your LO#2. Only she could tell us what was going on inside her head. It’s just fascinating that another person – and a woman to boot – could tell you weren’t an actual couple. (I think women are usually better judges of these things than men are, so I don’t blame you at all for having a blind spot in this area. A woman is likely the best judge of another woman’s genuine level of interest in a given man). 😉
A man and a woman in mutual limerence might hide their attraction from others to protect the specialness/sacredness of the bond, etc. I totally get the whole idea of a romance that feels too special to share with the world – at least initially. But that doesn’t seem to be what was happening with you and LO#2, given you guys didn’t end up together in the long term, or have a bittersweet discussion about how/why you couldn’t make a go of it because of XYZ reasons.
If nothing else, you have lived an interesting life, I must say! 🙂
Sammy,
It gets better!
After we reconciled, LO #2 and I talked about marriage. I don’t remember anything about the conversation except for telling her that the only difference between being married to her and not being married to her was that I’d be doing exactly what I was doing but I’d be doing it for the both of us.
Some songs remind you of different stages of a relationship. This is for that period, “Take Me For A Little While” – Dave Edmunds (1979)
https://youtu.be/6beoM5LYvIM?si=2imDnuzrkZKbRIKB
It was like we had guns pointed at each other. Finally, I put mine down and decided to ask her to marry me. I wasn’t happy or excited about the idea but I entered a Zen-like tranquility. I knew what had to be done and I was going to do it.
Years later, I was working with a psychologist on a project at work. I told him the story. He said that my Zen-like acceptance is what they observe in someone from the time that they decide to commit suicide until they carry it out.
I proposed to LO #2 and she declined. It may have been the nicest thing that she ever did for me. After reading my history of the relationship, a friend of mine who knew LO #2 when we dated and became a LCSW, said, “It’s lucky she didn’t marry you. You’re life could have been so much worse.”
As for having an interesting life, you play the hand you’re dealt.
@Limerent Emeritus.
“It was like we had guns pointed at each other. Finally, I put mine down and decided to ask her to marry me. I wasn’t happy or excited about the idea but I entered a Zen-like tranquillity. I knew what had to be done and I was going to do it.
Years later, I was working with a psychologist on a project at work. I told him the story. He said that my Zen-like acceptance is what they observe in someone from the time that they decide to commit suicide until they carry it out.”
Your feeling of Zen-like tranquillity after deciding to propose is interesting, and perhaps is a giant red flag in itself regarding your deteriorating mental state at the time…
I mean, for most men, deciding to propose is a joyous moment. Immediately pre-proposal, one may feel nervous but one usually doesn’t feel like a prisoner of war about to face the firing squad, resigned to whatever cruel punishments fate may dish out.
One interpretation of your feelings is that you were being hypnotised by the proverbial femme fatale into acting against your own best wishes. However, that interpretation doesn’t fit the facts because your LO ultimately turned you down. She wasn’t interested in trapping you into matrimony. She wasn’t quite the species of villainess you imagined, even if she was some kind of villainess.
Another interpretation is that by the time you decided to propose, you had been limerent for your LO for quite some time, and so the intrusive thoughts were likely in a pretty advanced state, and you were feeling tired. Maybe the decision to propose resulted in a temporary pause in intrusive thoughts, and hence the Zen-like tranquillity that washed over you? Your mind was just so exhausted from all the ruminating and then the ruminating seemed to stop. Nirvana! Finally a heavenly place where exists neither pain nor pleasure, but only an eternal expanse of thought-free nothingness.
I decided to end my life once and experienced the same tranquillity, so I know your psychologist friend is right: an eerie (and false) sense of peace is indeed something people experience before choosing a drastic course of action. It’s not euphoria. Maybe it’s the opposite to euphoria? Surrender? It’s a feeling that one doesn’t have the energy to fight any more and one is just going to let the Cosmos do its thing. Why surrender should entail destruction/self-destruction isn’t clear.
I think what was really happening with you (and also with me) is that your limerent brain was manipulating you into following a destructive/self-destructive path. If you’re uncomfortable with the words “destructive” and “self-destructive”, because you were merely proposing marriage, perhaps we could say your limerent brain was manipulating you into following an unknown path?
Your limerent brain was manipulating you into following a path whose outcome was unknown to you at the time. The outcome might have been good. The outcome might have been bad. But your limerent brain was very sure (on your behalf) you had to take the assigned path. You couldn’t voluntarily opt out of taking said path.
Honestly, for you to go into an almost dissociative. fuguelike state after deciding to propose indicates the level of psychological stress you were under. You were not yourself. You were not in full command of your senses. You were a man emotionally undone.
I can understand why you’re quite firm in your judgement that limerence isn’t really a good thing for you to indulge in personally.
bro really knows his chemistry.
Sammy,
After I made the decision to propose, I bought LO #2 a 2.5 carat brown diamond engagement ring. Even though she declined my proposal, she asked if she could wear it on New Years Eve. I let her and she wore it on her right hand.
After I was married, I was showing my wife my, now our, stuff. When she saw the ring, you’d have thought He’ll had frozen over. She knew exactly what it was.
I offered to unmount it and put it in another setting. She said that she would never wear that stone in anything as long as she lived.
Ironically, she is wearing the diamond from another woman’s engagement ring. I got as collateral from a loan on a failed aerobics studio. My wife had no problems with that stone.
Yep,
Life can be interesting.
L.E., I’m convinced that you must have cataloged a boatload of songs covering almost every limerence situation!
I feel I am guilty of both — I want the ambiguous, fun, flirty friendship… and I want to move things forward! But I am married! Currently coworker is literally trying to “figure me out,” and I am loving it! But I need to stop. He knows I am married, Christian, have kids etc. I know this can only go one way– limerence to a painful death. 😒
I now have to reevaluate my strategy. Before, I thought I could just have a real-life friendship with a coworker and as long as it doesn’t go any further than the workplace it would be ok. Not so. I am feeling the pull of mutual attraction and flirtiness. I want to stop it while it’s on a positive note. So frustrating, because our conversation makes me feel so alive and fun and just giddy.
One thing I do is remember/imagine that every flirty attraction is just that in the beginning — and everything gets boring down the road. Always. Because the reality is, that’s kinda just life. If I remember the inevitable boredom, it helps me combat the glimmer a little. But it’s not enough right now. There’s too much chemistry. I have to be more guarded.
Tips and tricks, anybody?! 💙
I only have two and you know one of them at least… I always remind myself that God wants me to “will the good of the other”. This statement is always effective though often difficult to swallow because I often have to sacrifice my own desires in order to actually achieve this…
Secondly I find taking a physical break from LO is very effective. I have second home in another state halfway across the country that I visit every 6-7 weeks. I go 9-10 days without seeing LO. The first day without him still feels like any other but by the second or third day the distance and distractions set in and I’m getting much needed relief. He ceases to be an “active LO” as the intense feelings go dormant and I can emotionally and cognitively shelve him with my small collection of former LO’s. So schedule sometime away from work…. Ideally take a trip but even just changing your environment after the work day can help transition you from work relationships to home relationships.
Good luck. The struggle is real!
@SJ
Yes, God does want us to do what’s best for the other person… which is why I have to bow out gracefully in this one, I think. Before it gets worse, or more entangled. I realize this is going to be a cycle I’ll have to learn to break. Getting there, crushing one crush at a time 😓 Thanks for listening. It really helps! 😊
This is a good post. A John will drive a Kayleigh mad. She will waste months or years trying to figure him out, trying to get her head around what it is he actually wants. She’ll finally press for an answer, and emotional constipation is exactly the response she’ll get, as the post says, or more of the same flirtatious deflection she’s gotten before. Sometimes he’ll even be surprised about the confrontation, which will make no sense to Kayleigh. Of course I’m asking you out! We’ve been flirting for months!
And then she’ll just get angry — at herself for not seeing what was happening and at him for wasting her time.
If you’re a Kayleigh and you suspect you’ve met a John … just stop talking to him. Cut it off. There’s no point in having a conversation about it because a John won’t be direct with you anyway.
Really, if you have to press someone for an answer … that’s your answer. Something who is genuinely interested in something happening won’t play things like a John.
“Something who is genuinely interested in something happening won’t play things like a John.”
I meant: Someone
@Marcia.
“I meant: Someone.”
No, I think you got it right the first time – there are plenty of emotionally constipated someones who act like emotionally constipated somethings.😆
Of course, John could always flip the script. He could say that he’s emotionally normal, valuing safety so highly, while Kayleigh is suffering from emotional diarrhoea. Apologies in advance for indelicacy. 🙂
Sammy,
“Apologies in advance for indelicacy. 🙂”
You indelicate weasel! 🙂
“Of course, John could always flip the script. He could say that he’s emotionally normal, valuing safety so highly, while Kayleigh is suffering from emotional diarrhea.”
Most definitely. People who don’t want much must see people who want more as … running on with their emotions. 🙂
In all seriousness, I think the clip was a bit too “pat.” We always like to give some kind of past heartache as a reason for someone being emotionally constipated. But sometimes there is no reason. It’s just who they are.
@Marcia.
“In all seriousness, I think the clip was a bit too “pat.” We always like to give some kind of past heartache as a reason for someone being emotionally constipated. But sometimes there is no reason. It’s just who they are.”
Agree. Emotional constipation for some people is just their normal, everyday personality. It’s not the product of some tragic backstory. These people want to date “someone who makes them feel comfortable” and not someone for whom they feel torrid passion.
Oddly, though, men with emotional constipation do seem to attract women with the opposite ailment – emotional diarrhoea, for want of a better term. And then these two mismatched creatures proceed to torture each other (perhaps unknowingly) and feel hard-done-by.
😉
(Trying not to be verbose. Did I manage it?) 😆
Sammy,
“Agree. Emotional constipation for some people is just their normal, everyday personality. It’s not the product of some tragic backstory. These people want to date “someone who makes them feel comfortable” and not someone for whom they feel torrid passion.”
Exactly. They don’t want and have never experienced torrid passion.
And you’re only going to get so much from them.
“Oddly, though, men with emotional constipation do seem to attract women with the opposite ailment – emotional diarrhoea, for want of a better term. And then these two mismatched creatures proceed to torture each other (perhaps unknowingly) and feel hard-done-by.
😉”
Yes. It’s called the avoidant-anxious relationship. The more he pulls back, the more she chases. It’s a very bad dynamic.
“(Trying not to be verbose. Did I manage it?) 😆”
Look at you, doing two “funnies” in one day. 🙂 Yes, you’re Barry Brevity! Sammy Short-Term! I didn’t think you had it in you!
All this talk about constipation reminds me of the Batman movie in the late ’80s with Jack Nicholson as the Joker. He says of Gotham City, “This town needs an enema!” 🙂
@Marcia.
“Look at you, doing two “funnies” in one day. 🙂 Yes, you’re Barry Brevity! Sammy Short-Term! I didn’t think you had it in you!”
Haha! Thank you! 🙂
“All this talk about constipation reminds me of the Batman movie in the late ’80s with Jack Nicholson as the Joker. He says of Gotham City, “This town needs an enema!” 🙂”
Yes, there’s a fair bit of scatological humour in comic books, and in movie franchises inspired by comic books. As my mother would say with a note of disapproval in her voice: “Small things amuse small minds.” 🙄😉
Sammy,
“As my mother would say with a note of disapproval in her voice: “Small things amuse small minds.” ”
Your mother would not be impressed with me. I thought the line was funny.
I borrow it when thinking about my workplace. “This company needs an enema!” 🙂
I think that describes my LO very well. He certainly is emotionally constipated, cannot express his feelings (“I don’t know what you want me to say” , heard that at least two times)and on top he just wants to enjoy the frisson, like aptly described
“He wanted it to carry on in the same way, nothing spoken, everything hinted at, a status quo of mutual affection that never changed into anything deeper. “
Meanwhile I’m actually glad he’s that way. My own way (the one who wants to unpack the package) is way too dangerous.
As I realize now that the past with LO1 is back to haunt me in an unpleasant way.
How stupid we are when in limerence.
Mila,
In your case, with a SO on both sides, the “uncertainty” is appropriate inside out, if you are able to sit back with serenity and truly appreciate what you already have in your life — SO, kids and LO’s perceived, unspoken affection… from moment to moment, and place to place…
As you insightfully state, it IS your “own way — wanting to unpack the package” has caused your sharp, unstoppable anxiety in the past few months… I feel for you, since I’m in a similar boat without a loving SO…
Are you still in the States? How was the trip? Got pleasantly distracted in your LE mind? I hope so…
Did the trip trigger LO1’s resurfacing?
🫂
Hi Snow,
Just saw your message, cannot keep up somehow..
I‘m on my last night before flying back- I really got a blast from the past, as I‘m very certain that LO1 would love me to message him now to resume old EA etc, but of course I won’t.
I gave some answers to your questions in my post to LiS- trip was great but now I’m really looking forward to go home.
I‘m actually not in the mood to open any packages now, not the one with LO1 nor that with current LO3.
I‘m still a bit shaken that my colleague might know about that bloody LE/EA with LO1 and even making it into a PA, and what that might do to my family or reputation in my workplace if he starts spreading it, even though it‘s over for more than 7 years.
So that sobered me up on my current LE and on my glimmery colleague too.
Are you still limerent for the LO who will leave soon? Sorry to ask, I haven been keeping track at all.
And might not be able to answer for a couple of days now.. but hope you are fine!
@Mila,
I did read your response to LiS and am glad that you’ve had an enjoyable trip at my “front🚪, within which so many Romeos 😻 keep flooding in from around the 🌍 !
Your LE1 sounds very tricky, in which LO1 is still in your work environment all those years, which (similar to mine) had brought me horrible worries for the first half of this LE, although I did not have a SO. The thoughts of what colleagues would guess, think, conclude used to make my heart skip a beat. Are you sure that LO#1 could possibly spread your LE#1, is he that low and small?
You’re wise not to “sober up” on new glimmery colleague, due to your SO and family.
I’m not sure if “in limerence” could be described in my situation since little uncertainty is left and I am not pinning anything from LO — whatever he says or I conclude about the past would NOT make any differences in my life, now or later!
Two weeks are left before the semester ends. LO and I, along with many other colleagues, will have to exit our workplace completely by the mid June. The saddening air is filled everywhere in the hallways; we chatted with each other in sighs — some were let go after having marvelously taught there for 25-35 years.
Although the sad sentiment sometimes smothered me lately, I still could not fully comprehend it thus unable to feel it fully. There is no uncertainty left in this LE, but just raw sadness for a permanent departure/separation. In the past, even shorter NCs during vacation breaks had naturally loosened up LO/LE in my mind; now there is no returning! (LO still hasn’t landed a new job). I cannot foretell how I will be feeling after May (I’ll be visiting COO for 3 weeks from early June on).
Maybe like you, I’ve limerented more for LO since last August when learning about the D-Day’s coming. But unlike you, LO was not my former friend and he acknowledged last April he did not make enough efforts for us to become friends. Although he has given me a “new” permission to continue monologues whenever I wish, but what that is going to do to my life, when he’ll be becoming a “physical phantom” in reality?
That’s why I said that I feel like encountering a metaphorical “death”, waiting for its final arrival. Well, I’m anxious to know how myself would feel in the coming days.
It’s a counting down time….
Typo: it should be: You’re wise to “sober up” on new glimmery colleague, due to your SO and family.
Hi Snow,
No, LO1 would never risk anything in terms of spreading gossip, at least I think so. It’s another colleague who started to talk about it. Don’t know where he got it from because LO1 swore he didn’t tell him anything.
Maybe your sadness is a „good“ kind of sadness, something to wade through as a proper ending?
I think it’s a good opportunity to let go of this LE, don’t monologue to him again, say good bye to the Phantom, that’s my spontaneous thought.
Hi Mila, glad your tour is going well. It seems you are getting to see some great places !
Your LO1 situation sounds tricky and this would concern me too.
There is one person at work only that I think has maybe some intuition about me and my LO being friendly.
It is always a concern that in future years as a connection fades or something happens, that maybe LO has some drinks with the ‘boys’ and in the bravado / one upmanship he may say something like ‘did you know Imho was totally infatuated with me’ etc…
It is something I’m very mindful of however much I think LO is very loyal and a total gentleman.
Enjoy the rest of your trip and safe travels home
@Mila,
Thank you for your insight and encouragement.
The problem here is that I cannot yet fully feel proper sadness, because I am still in somewhat disbelief/denial after the preparation of 9 months for this D-day.
I don’t have tears but this inner intensity, perhaps it is a fear, a fear of unknowns, as if one knows one is going to die with the mind still alive, and constantly wonder what it would feel like after the “death”. I was never in this situation before (I cut off all the previous LEs on my accord, usually cold turkey with detrimental physical and mental pains on my part), which is so out of my control!
In hindsight, despite its most intense LE symptoms (compared to the previous much smaller or half requited LEs), I have the least amount of regrets, but this unexplainable, elongated longings, not exactly for LO (he is just the biggest catalyst) but something else much deeper which I can’t quite pin down.
Maybe the fear is that I’d lose my longings, my desires, my imaginations and my sustained LE energy after LO physically disappears from my world, and I’d be left with hollowness within and little meaning without…. Since the early age, I rarely cared much about worldly stuff, tangible or intangible, which might be caused by my terrible cptsd. Now, my cptsd is healed a lot (many credits to the Phantom) , would I care about the realistic with a new light??
With or without a LO, I always need(ed) a certain amount of imagination everyday to make my trivial life seems to be a “walking” story — a small “mental adventure”. The phantom, coming from within awakened by LO, and my monologues to IT was a primary inspiration in this LE to keep such beneficial imagination alive. I don’t think I want to or I am able to cut it off from my core, as long as I don’t suffer from it or let it affect my reality.
If it’s another colleague spreading rumors about your LE1, ignore it, as long as nothing inappropriate ever happened, as long as LO#1 backs you up on this. Rumor without data will disappear on its own. A lot of colleagues of mine suspected there was something going on between LO and me — I was seen to friendly chitchat with him in public a lot more than our works had called for. But he and I just ignored others’ “wondrous” looks since nothing inappropriate ever happened — never touched any of his “fourteen” fingers!
Hope your trip to Washington runs smooth.
Hi Imho and Snow,
Thanks for the messages.
My colleague never spoke of it again on this trip. I honestly wonder how he knows about it since I‘m very sure that LO1 would never tell.
Well, cannot do much about it now, just hope on the decency of my colleague, or that he meant someone else than me..
Snow, I do know a bit what you mean by fearing the void that limerence leaves when ending. But there must be a way to fill it without the potential to hurt people or to see them in an untrue light.
Imho, it’s quite interesting what you write about being always the competent one but not really wanting to be. We are limerent for the way LO makes us feel as much as for the person.
@Mila
“But there must be a way to fill it without the potential to hurt people or to see them in an untrue light.“
What do you mean “the potential to hurt people”? I think limerents in limerence suffer most without realistically hurting others or being hurt by others.
“Untrue light”? Our impression of another is ALWAYS subjective (varied from other perspectives on the same person) reflecting/mirroring our cultural background and personality traits.
There is NO “true universal light” to see anyone authentically. On top of that, everyone changes and evolves, regardless whether they intend or not. So there is NO “fixed light” to view anyone either.
“To achieve accurate knowledge of others, if such a thing were possible, we could only ever arrive at it through the slow and unsure recognition of our own initial optical inaccuracies. However, such knowledge is not possible: for, while our vision of others is being adjusted, they, who are not made of mere brute matter, are also changing; we think we have managed to see them more clearly, but they shift; and when we believe we have them fully in focus, it is merely our older images of them that we have clarified, but which are themselves already out of date.”
― Marcel Proust
I’ve changed or evolved sharply in 7 years, so LO and everyone else….
Snow,
you might have forgotten that there are limerents with SOs and LOs with SOs, of course there‘s potential to hurt people.
I agree with that one never sees anyone in a „true“ or objective way and that it changes, I still think limerence throws an especially artificial and overly subjective light on one person.
But I‘m very jet-lagged and tired and might not think straight, in which case I apologize. Wish you the best for the next days/week!
@Mila,
You’re right that when I wrote my previous post, I was only thinking about those single limerents, forgot about ones with SOs. My apology. See how a singleton’s mind functions!
It is not limerence, but just a crush, after glimmer, that throws this artificial/tele-color halo over the crashed/LO’s head, which is normal/needed, it’s Cupid’s doing — a biological/neural activation or reaction, beyond limerents’ control.
Only after slipping into limerence, limerent become obsessed and addicted to either their own projection of LO — a phantom, or just an idea of LO, or their own desire for LO. By then, LO may still or may not carry that initial halo. (My LO has long lost that halo 👼 over his head…. He looks plain and weary, but still more attractive than Romeo…)
Take a great rest now that you’re in your cozy home!
This is true for me as well. If I could have an affair with someone who wasn’t an LO I can only imagine what disaster I could unleash if my LO was anything like me!
I think they should make Car Share 2 which is the same basic premise except that in this season, the co-commuters are both married to other people while they banter and flirt and develop feelings for each other during their daily commute. And maybe one of them has a fundamentally good marriage but is a bit stuck in the doldrums and bored and feels like the passion is missing from their life, and the other excites some feelings in them that they haven’t felt in a long time. And maybe the other one has a fundamentally crappy marriage and complains about it during the commutes and is caught between fantasizing about making a drastic change vs not wanting to upset the status quo or do anything wrong. And let’s say both of them are fundamentally decent people who don’t really want to do anything wrong or hurt anyone else, but they also do just genuinely like and care about each other a lot and they struggle to let go completely of the excitement and possibilities that the other one represents.
I’d watch that! I think a lot of us here could work as writers on that show… Cuz yeah, it’s a whole extra layer to the story when it’s an extramarital car share and maybe both people really want to unwrap the present but they both know damn well that the beautifully wrapped present is actually a box full of venomous snakes and armed grenades and cyanide gas and it really really really needs to remain unopened.
Also Mila, how was your trip to America? Are you still here or have you returned home? Did the credit card situation work out ok? And what’s this about LO1 coming back to haunt you?
Hi LiS,
Happy to read you!
I’m on my last day of the trip and ready to go home. I had a fantastic time but now it’s enough.
At the moment driving through beautiful American landscape- such vast spaces. I’ve been to Boston for the first time- fantastic! And New York amazes every time. The credit card situation was no problem due to analyzing colleagues helping me and giving good advice.
My current LO sends wistful messages and keeps tag- he wishes to be here with us. Still hasn’t decided about his future. He isn’t much on my mind with all the new impressions and I deliberately avoid thoughts of him.
But I ruminate about my limerence in general.
LO1 is on the business trip too. Since the LE we don’t have much contact. But yesterday evening another colleague hinted heavily on something in LO1s past in terms of an affair or some going-ons in our workplace and I was shocked to the core because he seemed to mean me.
So I spoke briefly to LO1 today, the very first time we spoke about the LE for years.
It was a very stressful and for me painful LE and our spouses don’t know anything about it (not quite right, his spouse was very jealous, I remember it now), and I kind of pushed it far back in my mind.
I’m in no way prone to fall limerent for him again, he’s such an asshole, it was a complete mistake of judgement by me. He kind of told me that he still likes me in that way, but that ship has sailed for me, thank you. I was so stupid.
I just wonder how I could judge so wrong and marvel at how much I put at risk for this man.
And I notice that now that my current limerence fades or I try to avoid/end it, I’m subconsciously looking for a new one. Another colleague glimmers a bit and I really have to sit on my hands not to start playing the game, as I notice him watching me etc.
But now I know that it’s a habit I really try to get it at the root. I hear you, Limerent Nurse.
The story about LO1 and me came in good timing for a wake up call- to show me how much is at risk. Venomous snakes and grenades, as you say! Better leave it unopened.
LiS,
How is the situation with you and your LO? Did she keep writing, are you on the old road again?
Amazing colleagues, not analyzing
I’d watch that! Not a show where people just give in to their feelings and run to a hotel, but one where they dance around their attraction–more like most people in reality, I would think.
This scene was heartbreaking to me not so much because I thought it represented an inability to communicate emotions and needs, but because I thought that both people actually did communicate their feelings quite well and they learned that what they each wanted/needed from the relationship was incompatible with what the other one wanted/needed.
I’ve never seen this show beyond this one clip, but watching it I thought that John actually did communicate pretty vulnerably about his feelings, albeit with some sarcasm and avoidance, but he did tell Kayleigh that the CD she made for him caused him to feel things that he hadn’t felt in a really long time and that this terrified him – I think that’s actually a really emotionally vulnerable thing to say. And what I got from it is that John clearly does care deeply about Kayleigh and probably even loves her, but it’s also just really scary to him to feel that way. And I think he likes their status quo because it’s safe and he values safety a lot. He wants things to just continue in the same way forever because it feels safe. But for Kayleigh, it’s all just so frustrating and painful and she just can’t take it anymore.
I think that probably most people always feel some internal struggle at the outset of a new relationship between the need for safety and the need for connection and growth. Some people are wired more strongly for safety and some more strongly for adventure, but I think most people do have both competing drives within them to some extent. I’m sure there’s a part of John that really does want to take the plunge and dive into a deeper relationship with Kayleigh, but he’s wired so that the self-preservation part of his psyche is a lot more powerful. Meanwhile I’m sure there’s a little part of Kayleigh that enjoys things the way they are and has a little trepidation about what could happen if they move things forward, but she’s much more strongly wired to seek true connection even at the expense of taking some risk and being vulnerable.
So I ended up just feeling really sad for both of them because John was essentially saying “I care about you and I love what we have, why can’t this be enough?” and Kayleigh was saying “I need this to be something more because I care about you so much” and I think they both realize they can’t be what the other person needs and can’t get what they need from the other person, and it’s that really sad moment in a relationship when two people realize they really do care about each other a lot but for whatever reason they just won’t work out together and maybe never will.
Beautifully written, LiS
💙
@Mila
I need to learn how to “sit on my hands” too … by my eyes would still give it away. Yes, I can relate — it’s the furtive looking on both our parts that started our conversations.
Sit on my hands and close my eyes, that’s the recipe I need to follow.
I seem to recall that Jesus had slightly more drastic advice for what to do when your hands and eyes are causing you to sin…
„ “I care about you and I love what we have, why can’t this be enough“
But he doesn’t say it. I know what you are saying but I slowly lose patience with people who expect the other one to guess what they mean and hide behind „I cannot express it because I’m scared, I‘m just wired that way“and feel in the right and let the other one feel like a badgering fool.
I have to say that my lack of empathy for John might stem from his petulant behavior and unkind way („ugh, here we go again“). He wants all the understanding for being scared and not able to express himself, but doesn’t give her one bit of understanding.
So no, I don’t go for your interpretation, LiS. I think we all put the interpretation on this story that fits our own experience most..
I don’t know… I think I see it differently. To me, John reveals everything in this short clip. He reveals his feelings for Kayleigh, he reveals how he envisions their future relationship, and most importantly, he reveals who he is as a person.
Now Mila (oops I mean Kayleigh 😉) might not like the answers she’s getting to her questions. She might want John to communicate in a different manner. She might want John to give a wholly different answer to the question of what kind of future he sees for them; she might really want for him to be a wholly different person than the person he actually is. But not liking the answer and not getting an answer are two different things.
So at that point, Mila (oops I did it again, I mean Kayleigh! 😉😉) had 3 options. She can try to temper her expectations and just “enjoy the car rides” as IMHO so nicely put it. Or she can keep at it for days or months or even years hoping to change John into something he’s not. Or…she can get out of the car and walk away (call this “the Marcia”). Either way, John/LO has revealed himself to her in a true way, and now the choice is up to her.
Ah no. I have to admit that I don’t go after the spoken words but after the tone of voice and atmosphere, and I don’t like either way of speaking and especially not John’s, as I said. But maybe I should have watched the series and what came before.
Also, I don’t identify with Kayleigh as I also wouldn’t speak in this tone of voice to someone I like,and I wouldn’t react like her, so please don’t call her Mila;)
But maybe I’m just not British enough…
Also, did you just dodge my question how things are with your LO, John?;)
Did I dodge your question? Who me? (fiddles with the radio dial)… so tell me more about your time in Boston! Lovely city… did I tell you I lived there in the past?
Haha yeah, honestly I’ve been feeling a bit sheepish and perhaps even embarrassed to write on my own situation. I supposed that absolutely no one here would to shocked to learn that contact between me and my LO has been re-established. It’s basically like we’re just re-enacting every video I’ve ever seen about relationships between anxious and avoidant attachment styles – the moment I told her I’d give her space and stop talking to her, she almost immediately flipped from avoidant to being the anxious one; lately I’ve been passive and almost avoidant at times but she’s been initiating contact with me almost every day. Mostly just texting, one longish phone call, nothing super personal or romantic or anything but definitely just getting closer again and re-establishing the connection. Some of it has actually been really nice, like she wanted to tell me about a couple of big successes she’d had in school and I was just so happy for her and glad that she’d told me. She hasn’t talked about her SO much but has hinted vaguely that things are pretty distant between them and that she may be considering ending things with him (although I think that could describe most points in the past 20 years for them)
Friday at the end of the day I was sitting in my office finishing some work and my office phone rang and it was her number, in the past I’d have quickly answered to talk to her but this time all I could think was that I just wanted to finish my work and go home and have a peaceful weekend so I just let it ring. And then she texted me and asked if I was still it work and I replied that I was on my way home and about to arrive at home and wished her a good weekend. But then I spent a fair amount of time yesterday worrying about like “what if she was going through something really bad on Friday and really needed me and I wasn’t there for her?” but I know I can’t let myself think like that. So I guess we’ll just see what next week brings…
Hi LiS,
Don’t be embarrassed.
the odds were much more on the side of returning to a relationship with her than not. I think most people need some kind of incentive for a clean cut , something that happened, something harshly spoken.
In your case of a long warm relationship that fulfilled needs on both sides, it would be a small miracle if you could cut it off with one snap.
There are small signs that things are still changing (not answering her call, for example). Maybe the slow way is the way for you, keeping working at it, staying alert, wearing the limerence out?
Out of pure curiosity- now that she seems to be the one pursuing and being more constant and initiating, is that reinforcing your limerence or reducing it?
John;),
I really loved Boston!
Amazing that you lived there. It’s the first American city I can imagine living in (probably only means that I haven’t seen enough of America).
On my way to Washington now. First prerogative is a really good coffee.. any suggestions anyone?:)
LIS,
“Or…she can get out of the car and walk away (call this “the Marcia”). Either way, John/LO has revealed himself to her in a true way, and now the choice is up to her.”
The thing is … you don’t want to walk away. There’s a part of you hoping that John will take a laxative! When you finally disclose and press for an answer, he will be relieved and comfortable enough to tell you how he feels — and it’s the same as you feel!
Unfortunately, that’s a scene from a romcom.
Mila,
“Out of pure curiosity- now that she seems to be the one pursuing and being more constant and initiating, is that reinforcing your limerence or reducing it?”
I’d say it’s probably too soon to tell. On one hand, as you can imagine it does feel nice – it’s always nice to feel wanted, right? And I never really did want to just cut off all contact completely – I was willing to do that if it was necessary either for LO’s well-being or protecting my marriage, but my preference was always to continue a friendship with boundaries (and ideally without the horrible hot/cold cycles). And there’s a part of me that hopes that now with all of the uncertainty really removed, I can engage in some sort of friendship with her without my limerence worsening.
But on the other hand, I feel wary. I feel wary about letting my guard down and getting too close again and then getting hurt again. I’d finally gotten myself to a point where I was honestly ok with either cutting contact with her or continuing it, and I don’t want to ever go back to feeling like I couldn’t ever be happy without her in my life or having panic attacks because she stopped responding to my texts. I’ve also gotten to a point where the intrusive thoughts and ruminations are pretty minimal and I often go hours without thinking about her, and I really don’t want to slide backwards into limerent obsession either.
And then of course I’m also feeling a bit wary about her now too, after the things she told me about struggling to maintain control of herself sometimes. On Friday she stopped by my private office unannounced (to drop off some paperwork that when she’s avoiding me she just sends via intra-office mail)… I happened to be on the phone at the time, so I just gave her a smile and took the papers and she left, but if I hadn’t been on the phone I assume she would have wanted to stay and chat for a bit, and that would have been our first time alone together since she told me she didn’t think she should be alone with me. So that made me kinda nervous too, although I’d hope it meant that she felt in-control enough that she felt like she could come chat with me safely, and not that she had more nefarious intentions…
Anyway, I think this week I need to just insist that she and I have another real talk about our relationship, which is always hard to insist on when things are going nicely, but I think its necessary for a few reasons.
Please forgive the interruption.
Lost in Space, I feel like those define-the-relationship conversations increase emotional intimacy. Why do you want to initiate that conversation again? Haven’t you already said what needs to be said? Don’t you already know what needs to be discovered? Maybe you shouldn’t bring it up again. Maybe you should reread the email that you sent and see if you already established good boundaries in the email then stick to them.
Sorry to be such a downer.
Hi LiS and Lovisa,
Lovisa has a point. If you have a conversation again you should prepare what you really want to say or do afterwards. There is a very big chance,as Lovisa said, that all these serious conversations will be led in mutual enjoyment of intimacy and warmth and not for the alleged purpose of ending the emotional affair. If this is what you want.
Hi Lovisa and Mila!
I completely agree that we don’t need another “define the relationship” conversation where we share our feelings and talk about what we mean to each other, and the feelings only get deepened as a result. But I do think we need a conversation that starts with “hey, time out… what are we doing right now?” Because right now we’re doing what comes easily and naturally to us both by reconnecting in a warm and friendly way, but it was just a few weeks ago that she told me a list of very well thought out reasons why we had to cut it off. She told me all about how her feelings were too strong and it was causing her too much guilt and anxiety and frustration, and it was damaging her well-being and her conscience and harming whatever attempts she was making at preserving a decent relationship with her SO.
Right now the easy thing for me to do would be to just keep going along with all the warmth and friendliness because it feels really nice. The hard (but I think necessary) thing for me would be to say “hey, remember a few weeks back when you told me all the reasons you’d decided to cut off our relationship? Did you somehow have a fundamental change in how you feel about all of those things, or do you still believe all of that deep down but you’re just ignoring it because it feels good to talk to me?” Because if it’s the latter (and it almost certainly is), then we’re just setting ourselves up for yet another cold-to-warm-to-hot-to-cold again cycle that’ll just end up hurting us both again, or possibly something even worse.
Hi LiS,
When you put it like that, maybe you are right. You just have to be clear about what you want yourself, not put it all on her (I mean, of course call her out on what she said she didn’t want anymore etc, but more important is, what do YOU want, in realistic terms).
I mean, are you willing to go along with whatever she says (NC, friendship, EA) or do you have a veto on some of these? And if she repeats that she cannot do it anymore, do you still leave it up to her or would you be prepared to force the NC even if she starts writing again? These are not suggestions, I don’t have an opinion , I just think you should know what you want.
And not simply asking her why she’s not following her own instructions.
„ , but my preference was always to continue a friendship with boundaries (and ideally without the horrible hot/cold cycles).“
You sort of described here what you want. But it sounds like something that happens to you and not something that you could maybe create. One obvious step for a normal friendship with boundaries would be to get it out of the secret bubble and be officially friends. SOs and all. If you shy away from that, I’d say, you are not there yet and danger of limerence will loom always in the background, don’t you think?
I just want you to see and think about what the viable alternatives are for your relationship with her, and be honest to yourself.
Thanks Mila, those are all good questions and I’m going to think about all of that as I go through my day today. I guess at the moment my short answer would be “I have mixed feelings about all of it”. I’ll write more later but I’ll move it to the most recent coffeehouse. Hope your trip continues to go well! Did you enjoy Washington DC?
LiS,
I didn’t have much time in Washington, just for a walk from Capitol Hill to the White House and a coffee at Tatte Bakery, then off to the airport, and now I‘m home. It was very nice weather in Washington though, I had a good time with my lovely co-workers.
Very tired now, and SO isn’t home, so had to cook for the kids etc on top, but still happy to be back.
LO wrote if I landed well, he initiated every single chat on my trip. I‘ve got a feeling that he might try to be very nice because he knows he‘ll have to tell me that he‘s decided to leave. Which wouldn’t bother me as much as he might think since all I really wish for is that he finally! decides, and if he‘ll leave, it will now be more than ok for me because I‘m worn out by this indecision and distanced myself with the help of my traveling from all that business.
I don’t understand his dithering. It starts to seem weak and a bit selfish to me. He should just decide for his family what the future will be and not keep dithering for months.
In no mood to answer his text since suddenly he seems so close again, not continents away, and I want to keep the distance.
Okay I will definitely avoid the series after reading LiS’s post… Wow!
@Lost in Space.
“This scene was heartbreaking to me not so much because I thought it represented an inability to communicate emotions and needs, but because I thought that both people actually did communicate their feelings quite well and they learned that what they each wanted/needed from the relationship was incompatible with what the other one wanted/needed.”
That’s a fresh take on things. Jolly good. Well done! 😜
Sammy – A “jolly good” to you too for your post earlier where you pointed out that these kinds of painful scenes unfold millions of times per day around the world, mostly between people you are already married to each other. I thought that was brilliant!
Perhaps the most heartbreaking thing is when people wake up one day and realize they’re actually wholly incompatible with the person they’ve been married to for the past 20 years, and are left to wonder if it was always this way or if they were once soulmates on the same wavelength who gradually drifted further and further apart until now the chasm between them is too wide to cross.
@Lost in Space.
Thank you for your kind words.
I’m not sure if “incompatible” describes every single couple in John and Kayleigh’s situation, though. But maybe I’m deeply biased…
My dad is basically John and my mum is basically Kayleigh. They are now divorced (after 26 tumultuous years of marriage). However, my mum said she always hoped my dad would “mellow with age”. I think what my mum meant by this is that she hoped my father would become less emotionally constipated with the passage of time.
My mother always wanted my dad to “warm up” to her temperature. However, she never considered the alternative possibility – she never considered she might be able to “cool down” to her husband’s temperature.
It’s like my mum lived in the tropics and wanted my dad to come live in the tropics with her and my dad lived in the artic and wanted my mum to come live in the artic with him.
I think I sympathise more with my father’s point of view than my mother’s point of view. I thought my mum was really the one who needed to “mellow with age”. I.e. I saw her as intense, uptight, on-edge, and my father as pretty easy-going and down-to-earth.
However, now that I’m older, I can see how BOTH of my parents fed into the beef they had with each other, and kept the “flame of conflict” burning high.
Sometimes, the “withholding partner”, i.e. John, is actually the partner with all the power in the relationship when it appears to be the other way round. I.e. my father had the power to make my mother happy, but somehow he chose never to exercise that power. I mean, it would have benefited him hugely to use that power…
But yes, John and Kayleigh definitely give me “frustrated married people” vibes and not “passionate paramour” vibes. They’re definitely a couple, but the relationship is floundering badly. 😜
Yay, Sammy, you sayeth it beautifully!!! I loveth the way you dissect everything!
Don’t you ever change.
Good day to you. 🫂
Hi Lis,
Maybe incompatible is not the right word, but boredom?
Everyone is mirroring in this clip and post from Dr. L. Interesting!
Good day to you.
I don’t know… are you considering them compatible because they managed to survive 26 years of marriage together before calling it quits, or would you consider them incompatible because emotionally one is the tropics and the other is the arctic and they spent most of a lifetime trying to change the other one and making each other miserable?
I think if any of my kids ever ask my advice on picking a mate, one of the main things I’d tell them is to find someone that you can love and imagine living with forever AS THEY ARE NOW, not as you wish they could be. I see so many people commit to long term relationships despite obvious basic incompatibilities because they tell themselves “if I could just change this one core feature of my partner then everything would be perfect”
@Lost in Space.
“I don’t know… are you considering them compatible because they managed to survive 26 years of marriage together before calling it quits, or would you consider them incompatible because emotionally one is the tropics and the other is the arctic and they spent most of a lifetime trying to change the other one and making each other miserable?”
My mum thought she and my father were incompatible, and never stopped complaining about how they were incompatible. My father thought he and my mum were highly compatible, and he was quite happy to stay married to her indefinitely. (She’s the one who left him). So they couldn’t even agree on whether they were compatible or not! 😆
In the above video. I think John would say he’s compatible with Kayleigh. They always have a nice time together, don’t they?
However, Kayleigh would say: “I need more than you’re currently giving me. Why can’t you see it’s not working? We’re not clicking.”
I think my parents weren’t compatible while they were fighting with each other constantly. However, if they found a way to move pass the conflict, and move past the desire for conflict, I think they would be compatible. It’s weird, but if my mum gave up her need for romantic love, then my parents would be compatible. It seems infatuation, or the desire for intensity, is what made them incompatible. Romantic love (for each other) is what ironically ruined their marriage. Romantic love got in the way of empathy.
I think my mum couldn’t move past the game-playing. She was so determined to “win the game” of passion, and still is. However, if she wanted to have a happy marriage, I think she needed to admit defeat voluntarily. She needed to call off the hounds of war. She needed to decide that she could live in a marriage based on friendship and shared goals and not on games/romantic ardour.
But I agree with what other posters here have said. Why should Kayleigh make all the concessions? Or why should John make all the concessions? Why must one partner cave in to the other for the sake of peace? Why must one partner adopt the other’s worldview?
I think for John and Kayleigh above to have a lower-conflict bond, Kayleigh needs to give up her own desires and learns to see the world from John’s point of view, because John’s point of view is a little more aligned with how the real world works. (Couples need to remain calm in order to be able to work together and achieve common goals). However, Kayleigh would likely say that her making all the concessions is unfair, and she never signed up for that. Kayleigh would say she’s in it for the passion, and passion is king.
I tried to find Car Share online but apparently it’s not available here. 🙁
I love ‘Car Share’. The actors are good friends in real life. The TV format of ‘will they get together or won’t they ‘ always works and keeps the audience gripped. Kayleigh is also living with her sisters family. she wants to move on and have her own happy family.
They are both single and to me it’s just about difference in bravery to take the leap of faith. The fear John has of changing a dynamic that’s working so well, the car share is no doubt the highlight of his every day, driving 90 mins to pickup Kayleigh and the return journey he probably looks forward to all day through his boring job. If they get together as a couple he probably fears Kayleigh may leave him after a week as she sees his house and gets to really know him in his underpants and socks. The special moments may be gone and he doesn’t want to risk losing the everyday highlights and fun they experience together on their car journeys and singing together. It’s very bitter sweet.
Often one person always wants more even in other scenarios where the two people can’t have more (barriers) they push for the reciprocation rather than just enjoying the car journey.
So my reflection is that I need to simply learn to enjoy my ‘car journeys’ for what they are or ask LO to pull over so I can unbuckle and get out the car to say farewell.
Imho,
“Often one person always wants more even in other scenarios where the two people can’t have more (barriers) they push for the reciprocation rather than just enjoying the car journey.”
Precisely! When unconquerable barriers exist, having the reciprocation would not make much realistic differences, unless both decides to cross the moral line. If limerents cannot appreciate/enjoy such an unreciprocated car-sharing, s/he has to either endure LE pains, hopefully peacefully, or get off of the car; no other option!
“….or ask LO to pull over so I can unbuckle and get out the car to say farewell.”
Why should LO be always on the driver’s seat? What if limerent is driving and unavailable, un-reciprocating LO is taking the car ride? Should or could s/he kick LO off the car, knowing such a dead-end “car journey” would eventually bring LE pains? Could s/he develop some skills of just sharing the 🚗 without expecting more, while keep their eyes open for other available LOs? 🤔
Hi Snow,
I’m actually always the one driving the car, both literally and metaphorically in all scenarios and imaginations too.
I guess my response to the blog subconsciously indicated that it would be quite nice to be in the passenger seat for once.
Thanks for helping me realise this minor revelation.
Hi Imho,
What do you mean you’re “always the one driving the car”? Do you mean you manage/control your interactions with you long-distance LO and he follows your lead in your ‘car sharing”, or you mean you just ignore his (re)actions and act out your LE longings in your head?
Why do you want to be in “the passenger seat”? What does it entail to you in your case or in limerence in general?
In my case, I feel LO was in the driver’s seat when I was pinning for his responses to my emails/texts in my earlier LE. Later, when I sent out only unrequited monologues, rambling all sorts of stuff under the sun, I felt I was in the driver’s seat, since I truly did not wait for his replies or worry about what he might think about my revelations…. I “used” him as a therapist to reduce my cptsd pains… and he took “the car ride” silently. There was no pair-bonding desire during this leg of the journey.
Later, when my jealousy was provoked surprisingly, I felt a need to kick him off “the car sharing” thus pulled off several LC/NC. But when the D-day was looming, I felt I wanted to pleasantly take last bits of the ride in the “car sharing” before “the car” is completely crashed by Fate.
Despite I cannot drive in reality (due to my motion-sickness condition), I think sitting in driver’s seat even during a LE is more preferable and mentally healthier. Sitting In the passenger’s seat feels so powerless and out of control.
I totally relate to this post – as always Dr L you have captured some of the limerent experiences both accurately and humorously! I have stayed in an ambiguous limerent situation for 4 years – he told me he was in love with me (but we couldn’t be together because I was married), he was flaky and periods went between our contacts but when we would connect he would always be attentive and present and so attuned to me. I took this as real evidence that we were meant to be together and of a soul mate connection but as time went on I wondered why he didn’t push for more reality to our relationship. After I separated from my husband (though we still live in the same house so its kind of messy) I got up the courage to confront and push for more definition (as Kayleigh did). It was hard to do but as you have written about – the limbo becomes so exhausting and emotionally draining that I didnt feel I had an option – it was either the truth or I woudl lose my sanity. He gave me some BS about life being the moments we have together – he always has me in his mind as a nurturing presence ect ect…none of it meant much but none of it severed the connection either. I then found out he had also started dating someone new – he hadn’t wanted to tell me. When I asked him he started crying and saying he was pathetic and when he with her he thinks about me. I was so confused but I thought stay with the truth so I just sent a really honest email about how I felt and what I wanted. He responded in his usual confusing way – alot of love/specialness talk but no commitment or interest in moving things from fantasy to reality. I think in a way he is like John – he loves the moments but doesn’t want the reality. Its hard not to feel that its because there is something wrong with me. I am trying to do everything that people have spoken about on this website. It is such a wonderful community and I am so grateful for all the posts but it really is so hard to let go of the dream of perfect unity and an happy ending to a passionate love story. The story doesnt end when you get out of the car ! – there is a lot of work to be done after that!
@Leila,
“The story doesn’t end when you get out of the car ! – there is a lot of work to be done after that!”
Absolutely. IMO, the most important work to be done “after get out of the car” is to drive one’s (limerent or not) own car, make efforts for one’s own meaningful fulfillments, appreciate and enjoy moments w/o LO(s) (life is made of moments!), and let go the dream that there is “perfect unity and an happy ending to a passionate love story”.
I thought I had made the “perfect” dream come true after marrying available LO#4, but very soon, boredom set it. It is said that one desires only what one can’t have, regardless it’s (in)tangible materials or people, which, Based on Schopenhauer, seems to be programmed in human DNA. “Life swings like a pendulum backward and forward between pain and boredom.”
More than often, it’s also a truth — “There are only two tragedies in life: one is not getting what one wants, and the other is getting it.”― Oscar Wilde
The hardest struggle would be to keep the desire alive while not (able) getting (owning) the desired.
Thats so comforting to hear in a sad kinda way! Because Im sorry to hear what happened with LO4. Thanks for your response though- the dream does not end up the dream one would hope it to be. Its such a good reality check that the emotional pull of limerence is not a sign of guaranteed happiness. When the emotions are strong it is so easy to believe it is and feel that nothing else will be fulfilling.
That’s why I’ve successfully stopped dreaming about any kind of specific endings with ANYONE — most of cultural scripts from the East and West breed unspeakable boredom to me. I’m working on acquiring small but worthy desires, and their endings should be my tombstone…
Focusing on enjoying an aimless 🚘 ride, with a full awareness that it can end anytime by either driver, is a risky challenge; however, the only security could come only from one’s emotionally resourceful “home”, independent and stable from any LOs’ or SOs’ presence.
Hi Leila,
How similar is your story to mine , in that my LO would always be attentive, present and attuned to me. And that as time passed he didn’t push for more reality, commitment etc. We had such a “rapport”, he said to me and that we were a perfect fit. And I thought so also. Ours was a perfect passionate love story. I had this sad, passionate and crazy love for him. He was my SO, now in the category of LO, ha! But we’re both single.(he was divorced, no children). I never asked about his ex-wife, or any details of marriage or why they divorced. I was oblivious to his past. We worked at the same place. As he moved to another job, I felt abandoned although we kept dating as usual. I also moved to another job, made new friends and started feeling more independent from his grasp on me. As time passed and nothing changed, I became uneasy and bored with him. He noticed and asked me ‘ why I was so pensive?- I said, I’m bored,- he said, why? I said: this relationship is getting nowhere. He asked: like marriage? I said, well… he said, if we get married we would have to move to another state. I kept silent but pondering in my mind what does it mean moving to another state? It bothered me so much I knew I had to end this relationship. But still I would not question him. I was so naive and introverted! Next time we went out, I was also cold and distant, I knew something was not right with us. He said- a penny for your thoughts. I told him I was bored to take me home. And that night it was written our love story would die out. I got home and packed all the mementos and mailed to him next morning.
I instructed my roommate to answer the phone if it was him to say I’m not home. He called two times, she said I was not home. Next he showed up at my office, but I was detached and cold, not on purpose, that’s the way I felt. He asked if we could stay friends and I yes, we can stay friends. But I knew I’d not be his friend, I loved him so much to be friends. I was expecting him to ask what’s happening and let’s talk about it, but he didn’t ask, I didn’t explain either. A few days later he called early in the morning, seven AM, and identified himself with name and last name: this is Lo, and I have never before loved another woman more than you. I said now it’s too late. He said, I just wanted you to know that. I said I have to hang up because it’s getting late and have to get ready for work. I was always expecting him to read my mind, it wasn’t easy for me to say what I wanted. And those were our final words and the end of a dream I had cherished so much. He got married about six or seven months later, I learned from his brother I happened to bump into. If his statement of his love for me was true, how come he got married that fast? It took me four years to get free of him for I was comparing everyone I met to him. I even declined a good marriage proposal on his account. But I had matured in the process, now i knew who and what I wanted. I learned to speak my mind. The years of naivety had passed. I met my current SO and he was completely the opposite of LO, vivacious, adventurous, get going, free spirit , but most importantly: MATURE! Check mate! No more games with my emotions. Until I had a dream with LO two years ago, and limerence was delivered in that dream! My past revisiting and me trying to find answers to questions I never dared to ask back then…. Too late now!
“It’s so hard to let go of the dream of perfect unity and a happy ending to a passionate love story.”
I agree with your words above.”
I wish you find peace in your heart and that life present you with new realistic opportunities.
Nisor .
Thanks so much Nisor – you are very brave letting go of him. I have really struggled with that despite knowing it is best for me. My LO has also said things bout twin flame/perfect connection/true love ect but cant/wont move anything forward. I also now wouldn’t be surprised if he suddenly married/got serious with the new person he is dating – that would hurt alot – and I woudl be confused like you were – but in someways it also gives relief – it means its very clear that he has to be let go of. It beautiful to hear that you have a new SO – I really hope for that one day for myself – I dont want to let go of the dream of love but I also want to be much much more guarded with my heart and stay with the reality in front of me rather than what I was doing with him which was a constant escape into fantasy.
“I don’t want to let go of the dream of love but I also want to be much more guarded with my heart and stay with the reality in front of me rather than what I was doing with him which was a constant escape into fantasy”
I’m going to print that and paste it everywhere in my house! Thank You Leila.
Leila hi, Thanks for the post.
Your situation differs in the sense that you’re separated but still living in the same house with SO. This could be a deterrent to LO to taking proper action? How does he feel about your present situation with SO , and you still living in the same house? Do you think that’s an obstacle in the relationship? If you’re completely free , do you think things would be different? Have you talked about it with him? Sorry, you don’t have to answer if not appropriate. I’ll understand.
Also , you mentioned in the original text that you take he doesn’t commit because there might be something wrong with you. Please don’t think like that. The reason he’s with you is because he saw something interesting in you, something special. That we sometimes don’t match with the other person has nothing to do with your value or self esteem . We cannot always have what we want, either. And sometimes we meet the right person at the wrong time. Wrong timing.
Like my LO said to me 49 years later, “ if you had waited a little longer, our lives would’ve been different now.” I don’t know about that, we could also have been divorced like him. He divorced after ten years of marriage; told me “she was very materialistic “, go figure, ten years to understand that! He got married at 63 again. It seems there was a problem with him making the wrong choices…???
Have the conversation with your LO again ,if you want , and see what comes out of it. If nothing positive and constructive then drop the ball. Time to bail out, with your head high and tall. You can always find another person to fulfill your dreams. This time with shields up, and being careful, very careful with whom you get involved with. Wait your time to heal and don’t rush into new relationships so easy. Relationships are the way we learn to get wiser when it comes to choosing one’s partner , every time it’s a new lesson until one gets it right. It sounds terrible but these things are not learned at School… it’s learned at the School of Life, by trial and error, unfortunately.
I’m with my SO , long time, over 45 years now. We have had a good life, thanks God.
Wishing you the best outcome in this difficult situation and in the future.
Thought I was getting use to this innately-defected “car sharing” (it seemed to have two front driver-seats with alternating drivings) with some acquired Stoic serenity, the Fate lady will definitely throw me out of the 🚘 no late than 5/6 (have to send LO#5 a B-day card when starting a new “death” day… 🪢). Hate it or not, I’ll have to get my own 🚙 to move somewhere❓
Packed, moved stuff home, got the paper work down for another HE institution, content with tutoring…. Still a big fog is in the front, knowing what’s ahead does not generate beliefs or senses … some tightening of some internal organs, but NO panic attacks!
Meditations 🧎♀️of body and mind still work, maybe more efficient in darkness… ◼️
I think I’m one of rare limerenets who prefer uncertain adventures to boring certainties, even with lingering cptsd wounds… I really want to maintain a sense of mental adventuring (with a Sigma’s emotional stability) in life until my death bed….
It’s NOT a short-term novelty of any kind…. I’ll aim to drive my own 🚗 deciding whether to let an exciting or excitable LO share it… 😉
I’m starting to think I’m like that too Snow!
I just shooed off a really nice guy that was doing everything in his power to date me.
He was pretty hot too.
I found him, well, too nice, too honest, too something, too everything.
OMG I’m pathetic!
No spark was what it was. (for me) and I didn’t feel the glimmer.
Unfortunately since Limerence has hit me, the average meet a guy and go on a date to see what happens scenario just doesn’t cut it anymore.
I’m doomed! I need to feel the excitement, the mystery, the uncertainty!
Like, “Who’s gonna drive you home tonight”
Ironically that song is by “The Cars”
@Anna,
I have no answer for one human phenomenon: we are drawn to /intrigued by some mysteries in people. If they appear “naked” inside, we lose our interests in them quickly, or there is no sparkle to begin with! It seems that “transparency” in anyone soon kills our curiosity and leaves us no challenge to discover more. Maybe we all instinctually love chameleons or become one. 😁
I know your feelings about Mr. Goody-hot-transparent guys, I’ve met some of this type before in both world and felt bored to death. I thought my DNA programmed me to like/love enigmatic or unavailable people and suffer unreachable pains.
I think I’m more doomed: Glimmery Romeo crushed in, but with my newly acquired LwL awareness, my glimmer was killed in a month! Now Romeo blue, sexy, somewhat transparent eyes are still very attractive when fixed on my tutoring, but no heart beat skipped inside me… I tried to search something unknown/intriguing inside his bright eyes, but in vain so far. The older, less hotter, more dimmed, and perpetually evasive LO is still more attractive and will disappear in a week or so… 🥹
“There must be something inaccessible in what we love, something to pursue; we love only what we do not possess…”— Proust
It’s so true in my experiences… 🤔
This hit home. I have alternated between being John and Kayleigh at different times. Wanting to keep the drama and sparks flying in an uneasy but exhilarating status quo, to wanting more, wanting to crush the uncertainty. Two years later, having stepped out of the car but without disclosure, working on getting to meh. Some days better, some days worse. Keeping distant and working on avoiding as much as I can bear. Getting more involved in positive interactions with others instead. Not let the (perceived) shortfalls in my life serve as excuses. Actively face them (and my feelings). Great post! It is about authenticity and being true whatever that means to us as individuals. And also to realise when closure, resolution and a distinct ending or move forward just won’t happen.
This new perspective is really interesting. I think in my case both of us were John. We thought we were Kaleigh but when the rubber hit the road (ie. when we were both finally available), the thought of actually doing something about “it” was …
Neither of us did anything. I realized that although I had told myself the torture of not being with LO was the bane of my existence, it turned out that I did not actually want to be free of the torture.
Commitment phobes, both of us.
“Ultimately, it is the desire, not the desired, that we love.” — Friedrich Nietzsche
Great quote!!
Nietzsche also said, “There is not enough love and goodness in the world to permit giving any of it away to imaginary beings.”
Rather appropriate for limerence, doncha think?
Limerent or not, one has to dig down her/his own soul to find out what tic and fulfills the core — the desire or the desired, which inspire and urge one’s beautiful imaginations and beneficial creations for themselves and the world.
If one is truly joyful (not fleeting happiness or complacent content), one is willing to produce, give, love, and share his/her abundance of joys with the rest of the world. When deprived desires to create/produce, self-love, self-confidence, positive imagination, they become unable to bring either love or goodness to the world or even themselves, despite they want/wish to.
Half-starved “love beggars” (some limerents) could only give and share their “emotional crumbs” with others, including LOs.
Why are some people afraid of commitment? One answer(there are more): it will repress instinctual yearning and limit pursuing for new desired, constantly or periodically appearing on horizon…
@ Snow
That so rings true or me right now! Shizer (lol I’m German)
Getting back to the “goody-hot-transparent guy” lol
I find it quite funny now that if someone zeros in on me and expresses interest in getting to know me, I laser focus on ok, so what is he hiding? What’s his hidden agenda? What does he have up his sleeve?
I guess I’ve been conditioned by my Narc LO’s haha
As you said with our LwL awareness I find myself taking a step back and trying to read into if he is sincere or not. I can sense more now.
I didn’t do that before mostly because of my attachment style, so I think that’s a good thing!
But yeah, no spark, no glimmer whatsoever.
Unfortunately that has to be there for me to move forward now.
Hope you are well!
Is LO out of the picture now?
@Anna,
It sounds like your eyes are so sharpened by LwL lens in speculating all the dudes who set their eyes on you, it’s great! We need such a mindset in a potential relationship, while still act out our authentic self.
Without that spark or glimmer, it’s just impossible to even begin a step; with it, one still has to be highly aware who we are dealing with and prepare that a relationship may not work out no matter how much efforts we make.
I took the last class today with LO — his last one in our shared school. I recorded his last few words and sent the video clip to him for a historical record.
I do not wish my LO “out of the picture”, because he’s no longer a LO but a friend, although still a Sensor (beyond my control…). I have no idea whether we’d keep in touch in any fashion after we go our separate ways; probably exchanging some holiday greetings like we did in the past. I will miss his cultural knowledge/insights and our mostly pleasant chitchats, especially in the last few weeks.
Everything is impermanent, as Buddhism wisely states…
Very interesting thread. It is true that uncertainty really fuels the LE, and that for many people, they like being in this ‘limerence limbo’, as Dr. L described it. Its sort of like being in a safe zone, trying to feel high, and not wanting to disturb the status quo. I guess for most people, with the passage of time, they move past this stage, when things start to deteriorate, and one really needs to get a grip on the whole LE situation.
I really like the scenario that LiS suggested, of two people being committed, and then ending up liking each other. Many of us would resonate with this.
Speaking of TV shows, don’t know if you watched the Netflix show – “One Day”. Its really good, though very emotional. Takes some courage to watch some of the scenes.
On the personal front, things seem to be moving in a positive direction, LO wise. There have been some small interactions with her, and I have been able to be more or less emotionally stable afterwards, better than I was before. Hope all of you are doing well, and wish you the very best as you go through LE.
I’m glad you’re doing better in the personal front, ABCD.
Keep up the good work!
Good day to you.
Thank you Nisor, really appreciate it!
That’s great news ABCD!
I’ve been NC for 5 months now and my days are slowly getting better, I’m glad you are able to still have contact and be emotionally stable!
All the best to you!
Thank you Anna! Wow – NC for 5 months, great to know that you are feeling better. I think since you are on NC, it will get better and better for you.
I am able to function better with NC, however contact tended to derail things, so doing better on that front really feels good. Hope to carry on the momentum.
Good to hear that, ABCD💪🏻
Thanks Mila! How’s your LO situation these days? Hope you are feeling better.
Hi ABCD,
Thanks for asking!
I‘m just back from my business trip to the US.
My LO kept texting and asking about the trip very nicely, I only responded.
I ask him from time to time if he‘s decided if he leaves our workplace and town or not. He seems to still not have decided, or he stalls because he wants to tell me in person that he won’t stay.
I have to say that I’m losing a bit of respect with all this dithering and stalling. I mean it’s hard for me, but it must be way harder for his SO and family. It’s ok to take time and I know it’s a hard decision. But there comes a point where you simply have to do it, and I think it’s almost past that time, to be honest.
Also, I got some distance from him and the LE while I was away, and I don’t want to lose that distance. I kind of emoji-killed the chat yesterday when he asked how I landed and slept etc.
I don’t know if he is in town or not. I don’t want to be unkind or punish him, I don’t have a right to be angry with him because he doesn’t decide, but I still want to keep my new- found emotional distance.
Now I really won’t mind that much if he moves away, I think. I don’t want to return to that emotional place where I do mind.
But maybe that distance is an illusion and will fade when I see him, I don’t know.
I just don’t want him to occupy my mind that much anymore.
Also, I got reminded of my first devastating LE on this trip, and the memory left me shaken, a bit disgusted with myself and the whole limerence business.
I want to find a happy life and peace of mind without needing limerence anymore.
Limerence articles never fail to call me out.
“Other people like the limbo. They love the romantic tension, the “will-we-won’t-we” excitement of living in a perpetual state of unspoken yearning. Real life will never live up to the potential, so keep the uncertainty alive as long as possible. The romantic equivalent of “anticipation is better than the real thing”.”
I think this is especially pointed to us committed limerents. We find the excitement in the ambiguous nature of limerence because we know we cannot have anything more from the limerent object without a great deal of change, pain and probably hurt. So we wallow in the open ended aspect of the limerence. We enjoy the bliss of the limerent object without committing to the pain that is taking a chance that the limerent object will accept us and moving on from the present relationship will be a smooth transition. The pint deep buzz of gin without the hangover.
Factor in an indifferent or flaky or flattered limerent object and you have a recipe for disaster, heartbreak and possible end to the current relationship all for something that was never going to happen. Hell even an oblivious limerent object. Neutral reacting from a limerent object to pointed affection on the part of a limerent is a welcome reaction. Really any reaction that isn’t obviously negative, is a positive reaction. In the mind of the limerent anything short of “GET AWAY FROM ME!” is a worm on the hook and we are hungry. So a cheerful, friendly and pleasant limerent object this the kryptonite of a limerent.
It’s difficult for the limerent object when nothing short of object retaliation when the limerent will take any crumb they can see. When human decency towards the limerent becomes sweet candy, what else can they do? I did not watch the video but I can imagine it was something that would have killed me had she reacted that way. She was gracious to me all the way to end no matter what she thought was going on with me.
“You pay in time, energy, lost opportunities, and damage to other relationships, while you vainly hope that surely, eventually, LO will make a decision and put you out of your misery.”
Yes. And the length of the price you pay could be a lifetime, I am learning.
Well folks, I’ve been having an EA with my LO for over 6 years. The limerence is mutual: my LO declared their love for me, and I reciprocated. Thankfully, we’re both in situations that mean we cannot turn our EA into a PA. Major barriers.
Meanwhile, I think about my LO from the moment I wake up to the moment I fall asleep, and then they haunt my dreams. And you know what? I couldn’t be happier! To know that the person I’m in love with feels the same way, and that we will NOT soon have to deal with a real-world relationship, with its inevitable disappointments and compromises, is the closest thing to perpetual bliss that I’ve ever experienced.
In fact, as much as I dream about it, my rational side hopes that this EA never becomes a PA! The anticipation is truly the best part. There’s nothing in this world to match the feeling of being in love and knowing that the object of your love feels equally strongly about you.
Coming from the East where EA concept is almost unheard of, I’m trying to know/understand what specific activities an EA entails (minus PA) —
“To know that the person I’m in love with feels the same way, and that we will NOT soon have to deal with a real-world relationship, with its inevitable disappointments and compromises, is the closest thing to perpetual bliss that I’ve ever experienced.“
1. Besides LO’s words, how do you know he “feels equally strong about you” as you do about him, or he wakes up and falls sleep with you in his head?
2. How do you know there aren’t other ladies who also receive the same words from LO? Do you often see him in person to check in emotionally? Text? Social media, Phone call? Lunch? Dinner? Stroll?
3. So much “in love”, how do you comfortably deal with “major barriers” in your life? Does your EA help ease “inevitable disappointments and compromises” in your real-world relationship”? Have you grown more loving and caring feelings for your close family members and friends?
4. Is EA considered a moral, legitimate, and harmless extramarital affair? Do you share your joys of this blissful love with your SO or friends? Why or why not?
5. Do you believe an EA without PA could go on eternally? To most, being in love is better than going to the Moon, what’s the trick to successfully stay in that blissful stage?
Hi Snowpheonix,
5. “Do you believe an EA without PA could go on eternally? To most, being in love is better than going to the Moon, what’s the trick to successfully stay in that blissful stage?”
From my knowledge romantic bliss is an evolutionary ‘device’ to ensure the continuing procreation of our species. Tests have worked out this state lasts for a maximum of two to three years.
Remember one of the three Buddhist seals. Impermanence; everything changes.
In Zen Buddhist practice or any other real spiritual practice the teachers warn against staying in any blissful state. Enjoy it while it lasts but don’t try and prolong it. If the relationship is successful, I guess it morphs into something deeper and more wonderful.
The honeymoon eventually comes to an end and reality kicks in. That’s how it is for everyone and how it should be!!?
@Grego
I was curious only about how Pat has made her “pure” EA last 6 years and it sounds to be still going strong for her… Is her perception/belief exceptional from your “romantic bliss” theory and tests…
This video clip seems to explain Buddhism easier —
https://youtu.be/zTYvBn1CCvQ?si=0Z0e3PxZJbVmY6jc
6 Buddhist Principles So That Nothing Can Affect you |
Buddhism|Zen Wisdom|
Hi Pat. Thanks for sharing. I hear you, the highs feel super good, and in your case, due to mutual limerence, they would feel even better.
Just curious, are you leaking your emotions to your SO, I am assuming you both have SOs. In my experience, its quite easy to leak out emotions if you are in a group setting. Feel free to not answer.
Random thought: could the people who live in uncertainty be more likely to be “perceiving” (as in INFP, ENFP, etc) where as the ones who want “action” in their limerence are more like INFJ, ENFJ, etc?
Perhaps the people who are better suited for long-term uncertainty have a personality structure better suited for it, whereas others get to the point that there needs to be action taking place.
Personally, as an INFJ personality, I always wish for some kind of action (i.e. disclosure), whether it’s me or him giving it. I think this is why limerence is so hard for me while married — I inevitably feel this inherent urge toward action of somesort, even if it it just a flirty friendship.
Is it logically/psychologically possible that 8 billion people in the world can be categorized into 16 types and can never change or evolve, with their acquirements of cultures in their life time? What about people growing up and living in Buddhistic or Stoic traditions?
Does biology decide personality types?
Snow,
Several years ago, I read an article about the advances in neuroimaging and how precisely neuroscience (a la DrL) can map out brain activity.
I sent it to my slightly glimmering EAP counselor. If things like the MBTI were valid, it seemed reasonable to assume that similar MBTI types would have similar neural images. Taking that a step further, would it extend to astrology? Would similar signs map similarly?
Think about it, if they did, could you do a neural image of someone in advance and predict what they were?
The EAP counselor’s response was she didn’t think it would validate anything. My response to her was, what if it did.
That article is several years old. I wonder if AI, could weigh in on this.
With my limited knowledge in science and spirituality, I do not believe in MBTI or Astrology.
I see that everything and everyone is changing and evolving… more so when one migrates to another culture. Traumatic experiences could instigate personality change…
I see some cultural (religious, ideological, ethical.) influences are stronger than DNA…
I‘m a bit wary of the MBTI too. I think these questions in the tests will be answered by everyone in the best intentions, i.e. to find out how/what they really are, but the questions are not answered by a neutral person but by themselves, so it will always be how they see themselves with shadows (or more)of how the would like to see themselves, which might differ of how other people would perceive them.
It will be a a self-closed circle of „who am I? I think I‘m this and that“ and that will be the test result.
I remember to be a bit surprised by LOs result which didn’t match his personality well in my opinion (and I know him well). I think he sees himself like that but others don’t. Where is the truth?
@Mila,
“but the questions are not answered by a neutral person but by themselves, so it will always be how they see themselves with shadows (or more)of how they would like to see themselves, which might differ of how other people would perceive them.”
You have just bullseyed the issue here! Personality traits are subjective and cultural; our self-images are always different from that of other people, because lens they could not help use are from each subjective measurement, vastly varied personally and culturally.
That’s why I always say there is no objective, neutral, or universal truth about others, LOs or ourselves. Your LO’s example is very valid.
As far as I have read regarding the initial research into the MBTI was to help people understand themselves and how they can grow. It’s meant to say “see this is something about yourself you can work on” while at the same time saying “this is something you excel at”. I don’t take it as boxing oneself in. Because ultimately we want to make changes to ourselves, to better ourselves. Not because we want to necessarily change our image so people see us better.
There are major things that are a part of the ISFJ personality that are nothing like me. But the things that I can do better about myself, like my weakness for uncertainty, knowing my type has helped me with. I think seeing that in front of my face in print was opening myself to admitting things I need to work on. Same way this blog, Dr L, and this community opened me up to limerence so that I could work on myself in regards to it. And the future.
I agree Adam. I was very sceptical about MBTi as I don’t like being put in a box with a code ( like a prisoner) because us humans are highly complex beings . But doing it helped me assess who I am and who I want to be. It may not be perfect but it was useful. I’m sure others view me different than how I assess myself, as Mila points out the flaws of the tool. But I think some of us maybe have different personas and even those very close to us don’t really know us or our struggles. look at me writing here for goodness sake ! Those who think they really ‘know me ‘ would be totally shocked if they only knew the struggles I’m actually going through inside myself with limerence and other stuff .
To Imho,
I can tell from your posts that you are ‘a trooper’ who doesnt like to present like you are struggling. Its easier to diminish that side sometimes than to admit we need help and be vulnerable. I know exactly how you feel.
So, I had been doing ok all along but have been struggling badly with a new development for the past week. The LE was super-LC and kind of easing off before that. I was in a state of low level pain but more exasperation and weariness than anything else, fed up with myself for not making more progress despite doing everything I was supposed to, but on the slow path to somewhere else. Now a challenge has presented itself and I am going to need nerves of steel to get through it. I cant actually believe LO did what he did. I will open up more about this when I have had a chance to get over the initial shock.
Like you, I appear to be doing better than ever to the outside but I feel so empty, flat, and defeated. And now panicked ahead of this new test. I feel like I have reached a new low where I just want to bail out.
I should clarify that last sentence by saying “bail out” of the entire relationship and quit knowing him, work or not.
Hi Bewitched, very nice to see your name again. I’m not sure I’m so much a trooper more a faker it feels these days. But thank you, it means a lot. and yes maybe I do need to be vulnerable to somebody. I’ve been considering contacting my EAP actually but I’m too chicken or indecisive or think I’m not deserving enough to do so.
Anyhow, I’m very sorry to hear you are having a shock from LO and new test coming, I’m guessing this may involve some kind of f2f. Let us know when you are ready, if we can help in some way or at least be a sounding board for you to vent at.
Coincidentally I have LO interaction pending which I’m trying to not overthink and remain calm about. They are so infrequent that the expectation and pressure feels very high.
Let’s stay connected and compare notes !
Hi Bewitched and Imho,
very sorry to hear that you are struggling. It’s hard to keep it all inside and try to work it out alone, I‘m the same, here is the only place I speak about it. I think people would be stunned if they knew what my struggles are, it wouldn’t fit their perception of me at all. That’s why I was so shaken by my first LE suddenly surfacing during the trip.
Bewitched, whatever the challenge is, you can do it. You say you are shocked by what he did, but don’t forget that he might have a completely other perception of the situation and might not have meant it as you perceive it. I tend to presuppose that LOs think/feel this or that, but I have been wrong sometimes, being mired in my own limerent bog.
Imho, you are a trooper and not a fake, as far as I can judge!
I wish you both good luck with your interactions. Don’t play them up too much in your mind, they will come and pass like any other interaction, and maybe you will be wiser afterwards?
Bewitched and Imho, hi
It seems the lows are hitting everyone.
We all feel like a fraud, with this limerence and hiding our feelings to the world when one is bleeding inside. Internal hemorrhage!
But cheer up, This too, shall pass. I know you’re both strong, you can endure this, have confidence on yourselves.
It won’t always be this way. Take one day at a time.
Hoping for good outcomes for everyone.
Courage and strength.
An Easterner’s perspective
********
Monologue for an Onion
Suji Kwock Kim
I don’t mean to make you cry.
I mean nothing, but this has not kept you
From peeling away my body, layer by layer,
The tears clouding your eyes as the table fills
With husks, cut flesh, all the debris of pursuit.
Poor deluded human: you seek my heart.
Hunt all you want. Beneath each skin of mine
Lies another skin: I am pure onion—pure union
Of outside and in, surface and secret core.
Look at you, chopping and weeping. Idiot.
Is this the way you go through life, your mind
A stopless knife, driven by your fantasy of truth,
Of lasting union—slashing away skin after skin
From things, ruin and tears your only signs
Of progress? Enough is enough.
You must not grieve that the world is glimpsed
Through veils. How else can it be seen?
How will you rip away the veil of the eye, the veil
That you are, you who want to grasp the heart
Of things, hungry to know where meaning
Lies. Taste what you hold in your hands: onion-juice,
Yellow peels, my stinging shreds. You are the one
In pieces. Whatever you meant to love, in meaning to
You changed yourself: you are not who you are,
Your soul cut moment to moment by a blade
Of fresh desire, the ground sown with abandoned skins.
And at your inmost circle, what? A core that is
Not one. Poor fool, you are divided at the heart,
Lost in its maze of chambers, blood, and love,
A heart that will one day beat you to death.
Hi Mila, Nisor, Bewitched, ABCD,
Thank you for your messages of support.
Indeed it ‘shall pass’ and has passed.
LO interaction was lovely, he is so interesting and sensitive and I do feel special that he tells me things I know he doesn’t with others. But I’m trying to keep my metaphorical kite on a very tight rein and not let it soar too high in the sky, otherwise I know that I’ll lose control and it will inevitably crash to the ground !
Hi Imho,
best would be now to leave it at the basic pleasant feeling about the interaction and not think about it too much, analyze it etc, just think „that went well, we are on an amiable relationship“ and move on to other topics!
Wish you the best!
@Snowpheonix
I don’t know. Maybe we are born into our personalities, or maybe we are influenced by everything and then our personalities form, or perhaps both. I don’t pretend to know.
I am just trying to understand my feeling of action within me. I am trying to fight the inherent urge toward action to protect myself and my family. If other people don’t have that inherent urge for action, I am curious about it.
Knowing that people have frameworks within their personalities doesn’t mean that I hold fast to them or that people can’t change or evolve; it just helps me understand people and their tendencies a little bit better, and hopefully they can understand my proclivities a little better as well. 💙
While genes affects some of our neural mapping, I believe personalities are more influenced by culture, which could rewire one’s brain — never underestimate brainwash…
I understand why it’s very helpful/important to have a framework to understand oneself, within and without. But in terms of dealing with other people, I would not put anyone into any framework/box, which is prone/risky to make mistakes. Through experiences, I’ve observed others and myself evolving and changing microscopically at monthly basis, if not weekly or daily. Maybe I’m a subtle chameleons; I know my major mood, thoughts, and emotions swing at least 10 times per day…
How do you define “inherent urge”? How do you know it’s “inherent”? At age from 4-6, I physically escaped from my daycare/weekcare 3 times, I wonder if that daredevil was inherent or extrinsic…
I am trying to explore uncertainty. I am referring to the inherent urge in limerence, or the start of limerence, where I want to move closer to a potential limerent experience. I am currently fighting off/denying myself what is likely another potential mutual limerent experience. I am not prone to just letting it be uncertain; I feel I have an inherent urge to proceed with the excitement, and a practical urge fighting to get away from it. So it fascinates me when people are ok or even happy in uncertainty.
@limerent nurse,
“I am trying to explore uncertainty. “
To me, uncertainty exists not only in relationship/friendship, but also in all external matters. (Stoicism & Buddhism). I don’t like them (making me sleeping poorly) either, but have no choice. A worse aspect is after I reach some sort of “certainties” (only temporary), I get bored and (sub)consciously look for new uncertainty to keep my curiosity alive. That’s a “mysterious” human nature(born with or cultured?) I have discussed with Anna here.
“I am referring to the inherent urge in limerence, or the start of limerence, where I want to move closer to a potential limerent experience.”
Isn’t your “inherent urge” the instinctual pair-bonding urge that centers almost every limerence experience shown in here in LwL? It seems most of us have had it during our LE, respectively. Understandable — without the “inherent urge”, one could hardly slip into LE even if you give her/him a million dollars.
“I am currently fighting off/denying myself what is likely another potential mutual limerent experience. I am not prone to just letting it be uncertain;”
Sorry to be brutal here, no one is naturally prone to let go uncertainties in one’s life (maybe trained monks or nuns, priests). Uncertainty is the central 🔥 of LE, if you can’t let it go, dying to get some kind of certainty, and back up, you’d suffer tremendously within, especially when you are responsible for a family.
“I feel I have an inherent urge to proceed with the excitement, and a practical urge fighting to get away from it. “
Yes, it’s instinctual urge against your cultural/moral conditioning. The former is stronger by nature.
“So it fascinates me when people are ok or even happy in uncertainty.”
Some people have trained willpower to resist pull of cracking uncertainty; some people truly understand and practice accepting uncertainty with serenity; some people like or even get excited by a certain amount (not too much, not all the time) of uncertainty, which could make their everyday living somewhat “adventurous” and keep their explorative spirit enlivened…
English poet, Alexander Pope once said, “If I know what’s going to happen tomorrow, I’ll hang myself today.”
From one Eastern perspective here, many people in the West tend to focus on goals, instead of the journeys of reaching those goals that are supposed to be “side-products”. Every journey is filled with uncertainties but also excitement of discovering, encountering, and possibly unmasking them.
Guan Yin Buddha legendarily said once to a young woman who wanted to be enlightened as a layman Buddhist, “You have to go through all Red Dust (all desires and Buddhist in life) in order to let them go.”
I hope you can PASSIVELY watch/observe “the two urges” inside you without any moral judgment but more peace; it’s really fine to have both pulls.
Limerent Nurse
Uncertainty is better than rejection. It’s why I hung around like a puppy giving her all the attention she would let me and be content with scraps from her because that was better than her being gone.
I’ve been told as an ISFJ that I am either a people pleaser or that I am naive enough to be taken advantage of.
The uncertainty was, at the time, happiness. Fear gripped me when I thought of her not being there. And then when the house of cards did all come crashing down I had the fear my wife would leave. But I think that is more my anxious attachment than it is my MBTI type. As I have gotten older I have been able to see through most people and not get taken advantage of like I did when I was younger.
But there is that fear that in every relationship that I have had that said person will eventually find no use in me and leave.
@Adam
Ironically, uncertainty for me is torture; any sort of decisiveness is preferable to me to complete the limerence cycle, in hindsight. Rejection is the best because then I know I can be done with the cycle, once and for all, of the person leaves altogether. It’s the only way I get back to my normal, baseline, non-anxious self 💙
Correction: if, not of
I think that the further time passes the more I am feel more, like you said, baseline normal and not anxious. I find I expel memories or thoughts of limerence almost instantly. I have some bad days where they seem to return a lot. But for the most part the uncertainty and anxiousness feel as they should, debilitating. Not appealing.
I did a little quiz/test on attachment styles. I have a secure attachment style. However, as a secondary one, I guess it would be anxious while in a limerent state.
I was looking at informal differences between limerence and love. One suggested testosterone, adrenaline and dopamine were the players in limerence… I wonder if the extra testosterone is making me seek out this person, or is increasing my libido. Yet as a baseline securely-attached, married person, I get the oxytocin, vasopressin feel-good chemicals with my spouse.
On a medical tangent, I give adrenaline and vasopressin to my patients a lot, when they are hypotensive. Weird to think that they have a similar effect of increasing/stabilizing blood pressure, but may make them feel completely different. 🤔
I would ask them, but they’re usually unconscious or actively dying at that point. 🙄
Hi Mila. Thanks for sharing your update. Yes, I have seen from personal experience that being away on work/personal trips does help to take mind off LO, though one does come back to ones place eventually.
From my experience, reducing or eliminating contact – real or physical definitely helps. It seems you do have pretty frequent texting contact with your LO. This may create a barrier towards you feeling better, as it may make you feel anxious, so you may try reducing texting, if you can. Eventually, you will get used to not seeking validation from LO, atleast virtually.
I am glad that you are feeling better, and hope that this continues for you. I am sure liberation for you is just around the corner, hang in there!
Hi Adam,
Yes, we were on high-frequency-texting for months. It’s almost always casual stuff or photos, but I think it started out of anxiety on both sides of losing each other soon due to his leaving my workplace.
From time to time I got frustrated by the small-talkey, casual, but much too frequent to be normal texting, but couldn’t stop because said anxiety.
Now I don’t initiate anymore, but he kept texting during my trip, and me responding. I‘ll leave it at that for now. Not to respond would be unkind, he‘s still my friend.
But I don’t want to return to the high frequency we had before, and I don’t want to hear or see much of him until he has decided. I cannot dive into that uncertainty anymore.
„ Eventually, you will get used to not seeking validation from LO, atleast virtually.“ that‘s the goal!
„ I am sure liberation for you is just around the corner, hang in there!“
And that’s what I hope too, also for you!
Mila
I have a bad habit of trying to work around a decision I should be making by trying to herd someone else into doing something decisive so I don’t have to. Like I would by lack of action push my wife into being the one who doled out the punishment to our boys. I saw my father do it to my mother and I saw mother putting down the punishments.
The two ladies that I work with here always tell me I should be decisive about not letting the other salesmen take advantage of me by doing more that really isn’t my responsibility. But because I avoid confrontation, I just find it easier doing the extra.
In the case of limrence I actually think that the indecisiveness helped me not cross a line further than I already did. But while the uncertainty kept me in her presence I really didn’t like it other than that reason. If she found me either pleasant to be around or at least tolerable, than I could still stay around her.
Now all that dilly dallying and indecisiveness seems silly if not downright damaging. I do feel a bit better that I am more prepared for the future. I very much enjoy working with the two young ladies that I do now but have been very decisive in what I say and do. I aim to keep it as professional as I need to. I do small talk with them both and they are very nice ladies. But I am keeping my distance.
God this mid life is killing me.
Adam,
You know what, I suspect LO also unconsciously tries to herd his SO to decide for him. He‘s ill again, as soon as he went to his new workplace today, as I gather, and he was ill for quite a long time in autumn when he started working there.
I don’t want to say he‘s getting ill on purpose, of course not.
But he’s also complaining and sighing about a lot of things in the new place, without saying that he doesn’t want to be there, but still.
Another friend of us said a while ago something like he doesn’t hope that LO is passively trying his SO to say „Darling, I can’t watch you suffering any longer, let’s go back to your old place“.
I defended him back then but now I‘m not so sure. Not that he does it deliberately. But she‘s very caring and decisive, and she might just take on this responsibility, and that’s not fair on her.
And not very likeable or attractive either, I have to say.
As to you taking on more than you should at work to avoid confrontation, I can relate very much. I hate confrontation.
Sorry, Adam, your remark about getting others to decide really was a revelation for me, so please let me rant on a bit more!
The reason why LO left was because it would be better for his family life since his SO works near his new workplace. It would mean less traveling for her and more family time for them. Of course, if he‘s unhappy at his new job, it wouldn’t work out in the end.
I think especially because it is the better solution for her, and he is the one who stands to lose something, he should be the one making the decision.
And he just keeps stalling.
If he really gets her to decide (by passively showing that he feels not well at the new place etc)that they will stay here, then I will lose a bit of respect for him. He can decide to stay or to go, but it should be his decision.
If it happens that he gets her to decide that they stay, against her own interests, I’ll draw my hat to her selflessness and I will try to help that she won’t rue the decision. I mean for example I‘ll try to be as much a friend to her as to LO.
Actually, that should be the plan anyway if they stay/come back.
I hope I can stick to it, but tonight I‘m quite non-limerent and hopeful that this could really be the end of that b..shit.
Of course (rant no.3),
he won’t be proud if he gets her to decide to stay and will say they decided together, the same he would say when he will be the one to make the decision, so maybe I’ll not know who made it.
Hi ABCD,
I just saw that I called you Adam in the first response (the second was really to Adam:), sorry, but it was autocorrect or something, of course I thought of you as ABCD..
Hi Mila. No problem at all. I am glad your ruminations are down, same here. I do recall the feeling anxious part of LE, due to the perceived ignorance, or the non responses, or perhaps it was all in my head 🙂 You are doing the right thing by avoiding initiating contact, its good to be careful and cautious.
Hi ABCD,
now I‘m back thoughts of him come more frequently, but I don’t go to them anymore to ruminate, analyze or to feel good.
I try to stay in my aloof place regarding him.
Don’t know what a f2f might bring, but I’m very determined to keep it all on low level.
I‘m just fed up with this LE and this back and forth of „does he stay or not“. I‘m more indifferent now if he stays or not.
We are in a good path, let’s stay there.
I agree with Limerent Nurse, the uncertainty of limerence was torture. When I couldn’t get a clear answer I found a way to live with it for awhile – enjoying the headiness and thrill of it. It even got hard to let go of. But eventually, my whole being was calling out for the rejection to put an end to the uncertainty once and for all.
May-flower
Pink, small, and punctual,
Aromatic, low,
Covert in April,
Candid in May,
Dear to the moss,
Known by the knoll,
Next to the robin
In every human souf.
Bold little beauty,
Bedecked with thee,
Nature forswears
Antiquity.
—Emily Dickinson
May Day
I’ve decided to waste my life again,
Like I used to: get drunk on
The light in the leaves, find a wall
Against which something can happen,
Whatever may have happened
Long ago-let a bullet hole echoing
The will of an executioner, a crevice
In which a love note was hidden,
Be a cell where a struggling tendril
Utters a few spare syllables at dawn.
I’ve decided to waste my life
In a new way, to forget whoever
Touched a hair on my head, because
It doesn’t matter what came to pass,
Only that it passed, because we repeat
Ourselves, we repeat ourselves.
I’ve decided to walk a long way
Out of the way, to allow something
Dreaded to waken for no good reason,
Let it go without saying,
Let it go as it will to the place
It will go without saying: a wall
Against which a body was pressed
For no good reason, other than this.
—Phillis Levin
i’m feel like i’m “not ready” to let go of my lo yet. i like being limerent for him, there’s something about the rush i feel from interacting with him. i know i shouldn’t keep it around, especially because he’ll never reciprocate (i’m a guy and he is too, but he’s straight and has a girlfriend), but i can’t get rid of the thought in the back of my mind that maybe, just maybe one day he’ll return the feelings. part of me likes the uncertainty, it feels almost entertaining. but the other part of me just wants him, even though i definitely can’t have him.
Hi will,
what I have learned, years into it now, is that the more I enjoyed it, the more compulsive it got. I thought I was in control but by enjoying it too much, there came a point when it took over and became debilitating. It was a pure distraction in the beginning, I got a lot of validation from it because he clearly liked me a lot. But we were both married and both were respectful of that and pulled back. But by then it was too late and I never realised it until that point. Now I am trying to get back to normal and am struggling, despite almost complete no contact (we work together but are minimising that).
Tread carefully with enjoying your LO because the addiction framework of limerence shows that enjoyment is the actual mechanism that leads us down the slippery slope. The more we enjoy, the further down the slope we get. Everyone’s reactions and situations are unique, but my experience is that being careful at this point in the LE is very important. Somewhere in your executive control centre (brain) you know when you are stepping beyond ‘safety’ so listen to that voice.
Hello Will
Please carefully consider every word of Bewitched’s response. Her description is absolutely spot on.
I wonder how long you have been limerent for your LO because, from what you say, I think you may be in the early stages.
I too am a gay man (assuming you are) who became limerent for a straight man with a girlfriend. Four years ago, I experienced the same feelings that you describe. They were always peppered with guilt and embarrassment, however, because he was a close neighbour with a SO. The feelings were reciprocated, however, and apart from our delightful face to face conversations, we exchanged ever more regular and affectionate (never sexual) WhatsApp messages. WhatsApp messages are the very devil in limerent situations. We became confidantes. Well, that’s what we told each other and that gave us an another buzz.
There are some similarities in our experiences, I think. The reason I have responded to you is that, over the past four years, my LE consumed me. Like so many others who post on this site, I have found some of the advice on the most pertinent blogs to be like gold dust.
I have been fully No Contact now for four months since the beginning of the year. It’s gradually working and I have destroyed every video, photo and message. Giving myself little cop outs and excuses for staying in touch just prolonged the misery, because that’s what the experience became for me. I have caused myself deep emotional pain and, at times, some instability through not doing the hardest thing to do and making sure it stopped – completely.
Intrusive thoughts which grab you with a sinking feeling in the early hours, or when you first wake up, casual reverie that then becomes rumination – these are things which quite quickly become part of the whole experience. I am not out of the woods yet but I might have been if I had taken a tougher line some time ago.
With every good wish,
f
i didn’t expect to get so many replies but i’m glad i did. i’m definitely still in the early stages, i’ve only known of him since around august-september of 2023 and have just recently (maybe a week or two ago) noticed limerent feelings for him.
i’m fairly sure i’ve had episodes for a different LO in the past, but he was much more unattainable, whereas my current LO i see almost every day, even though i don’t always interact with him. he and i have gotten somewhat closer recently, so i find it hard to pull away, and i’m thinking maybe the reason why i love the feeling so much is that i’m not limited by the fact that i can’t see him or can’t hope to interact often.
hearing about how bad other people’s LEs went for them makes me want to crush the limerence more, because for now it seems manageable, but i don’t want it to spiral out of control and ruin things or have to spend bittersweet years being close from afar with him or having to get over him. i don’t want to go completely NC because i’m not sure he’d understand, and i still like him because he’s objectively funny and confident and listened to my side/offered support when i was having trouble with a now-ex friend (which, i think this extra care he showed contributed to me being limerent for him because i’m sensitive about extra care). but i don’t want to destroy myself and our relationship because i’m foolishly high off of him and can’t get enough.
i’m not sure if he means to or not, but a few times where i’ve accidentally been more intimate with him than expected might be making it more addicting as well. i’m not sure what to do about this, because while i enjoy the unexpected intimacy, i don’t want it to lead me down a slope that’ll be hard to climb back up from.
i’m grateful for all the replies and advice, i definitely needed to hear it. thank you 🙂
@Will.
You didn’t mention your age, but you seem like a somewhat mature young man with an admirable level of self-awareness.
You’re very lucky to live in the twenty-first century. You have the Internet, and all its associated wisdom, at your fingertips. You can quickly source reliable information on limerence.
If I were you, I would simply monitor my own mental state around LO. That is the best way to assess whether this friendship is going to have a negative impact on your mental health or not. If you feel your mood deteriorating, or intrusive thoughts multiplying, you need to take a step back. If you start dreaming about this guy, run!! 😜
Remember, limerence exists to foster pair-bonding. So any intensely pleasurable feelings you have is your brain trying to pair-bond with this guy. And any sad, bitter, angry, painful, vengeful, distressing feelings you have is also your brain trying to pair-bond with this guy.
It might be hard to turn off intrusive thoughts if you spend too much time with this guy, and share what your brain considers to be “special moments”. Your limerent brain will want to string all those special moments together into a story. But if your LO doesn’t want to pair-bond with you, because his true romantic interests lie elsewhere, you will be the sole participant in this “epic romance”.
You don’t want to act like a lovesick fool around someone who only sees you as a platonic friend. Even if the guy himself never expresses discomfort, other people in the guy’s life will e.g. his girlfriend. You don’t want the guy to cut you out of his life because his girlfriend is fed up with you hanging around. You have to let nature take its course i.e. heterosexual pair-bonding. (The feelings this guy has for his lady-love will always exceed the feelings that he has for you).
It’s sweet that this guy is sometimes nice to you. But don’t build that sweetness up in your mind into something it never can be. Behave yourself. Stay grounded. Be kind to yourself. Find a new hobby. (Nope. Sorry. Obsessing over cute straight guys isn’t a hobby). 😉
Will
Upon coming to this place over a year ago, I remember vividly how well someone explained limerence to me and how aptly it described it; person addiction. As someone who has struggled with substance abuse most my life this really spoke to me. The whole process (I found this place long after LO left my life) of limerence became resounding to me. I understood why I did what I did. Why I ignored the red flags that I was crossing the line as a married man. It all made sense to me. And I immediately took steps to overcome this addiction I had to her. Two years latter and I still fight the urges. Try not to wallow in it too long. The longer you do the longer the recovery is.
@Adam
You mentioned in one of your other comments that you initially were really hard on yourself and had a lot of guilt. I wanted to check up on you and see how you are doing in that area these days?
I have been doing better at that. One thing that randomly happened and I got my rescue complex triggered. Which has been a non-obsessive thought in my brain to provide a distraction to limerence.
Some months back my wife’s family came to the state to visit. My sister in law brought a friend of hers too. One evening (we were all staying in a hotel together) my sister in law asked me if I wanted to go bar hopping with them (her, her husband and her friend) and I said yes. We were going to walk it out. Through the night I got to know her friend fairly well. Enough that I asked her about getting married again. I knew that she was divorced, but I didn’t know why.
She said she was open to a LTR if she found the right man, but not sure if she would ever want to actually get married again. This was while we were eating dinner after we had stopped at a few bars, so I was a bit more talkative than when I am sober.
After we got back to the hotel my brother in law commented to me that I was sewn to her hip that night. I said “well downtown on a Saturday night where 90% of the people you encounter have been drinking is no place for an unescorted woman.”
When my wife and I got back home Sunday night I was telling her about Saturday night and the commented my brother in law made. And my wife told me that she had got divorced because her ex was abusive. And when she finally got out of the marriage she took multiple self defense classes. She ribbed me that I needed more protection than she did that night. 🙂
So on occasions when I am reminded of that night my introverted brain starts imaging scenarios of her finding someone that does treat her right. They are not intrusive. I remember waiting for a commercial on youtube to be over and whatever the ad was for the scenario was a wedding. And then I started imaging she found someone that treated her so right and made her happy that she did get married again. And she remembered enough of me to invite my wife and I to their wedding. It feels very healthy and not limerent. I usually feel positive after because those scenarios are totally possible and not only would make her happy but me too.
It feels very good that I can have pleasant thoughts of a woman whose company I enjoyed without it turning into intrusive limerence. It feels good and healthy. And I look forward to having another fun experience like that. All of us together. Maybe even Momma joining with us. In the past case she stayed at the hotel with our nephew so her other sister and her husband could have some time alone together.
@Will.
Hello. I’m someone who’s been in the same situation as you repeatedly (or continuously) from my mid-teens to my early 40s. I know all about uncertainty.
All I can say is you think you want him, but you don’t want him. What you want, if you’re a true limerent, is someone who wants you as much as you want him. And that’s not this LO. He has a girlfriend. He’s probably very happy with said girlfriend. You’re not on the longlist of people he desires. You’re not on the shortlist of people he desires. He doesn’t desire you, full stop. And since he doesn’t desire you, you actually have nothing to gain (except extreme embarrassment) from continuing to desire him. Nor will you interact with him in an authentic way.
In short, this guy is probably quite fond of you. He enjoys validation from you. He may even be physically attracted to you. However, that’s not the same thing as being limerent for someone. Limerence exists purely to facilitate pair-bonding. In limerence, the limerent party eventually ends up thinking about the LO almost 24/7. If you’re thinking about someone 24/7, and they’re not thinking about you 24/7. that’s very painful. You don’t want to end up in that situation…
If you indulge in obsession, eventually you will experience the lows that follow the highs. You’ll neglect any studies you’re doing due to daydreaming/depression. You’ll neglect work and family life due to daydreaming/depression. Perhaps worse of all, you’ll start treating your platonic friends with disdain because they aren’t your LO and they don’t intoxicate you the way your LO intoxicates you.
If you socialise with your LO, you’ll resent him when he doesn’t favour you. You’ll start to feel jealous when he pays attention to his girlfriend or to his other platonic male friends. You’ll act like a jealous girlfriend to someone you’re not even dating. (Awkward, no?) You may feel jealous when he talks highly of other people in his life. He may give you affection, but once you’re truly hooked, the affection he doles out with never be enough to fill your “love tank”, and you’ll always feel dissatisfied. You will come to loathe this person for “stringing you along”.
If your LO is straight, you should leave him in peace. Straight men don’t need any more adulation. No, really – they’re not deprived of praise. They have at least four billion earth-women telling them they’re marvellous. You need to take all that kindness you want to show straight men and show it to yourself instead. 😉😆
The reason your LO seems magical is because he’s showing you shiny new sides to yourself. Want to keep the magic alive? Continue with the process of self-discovery, but without your LO in the picture taking credit for all the magic.
You may dislike me for this advice right now. But you’ll likely thank me for it in about, oh, ten years’ time… 😁
Take care of yourself, buddy. 🙂
@ Sammy
Having crushes on cute, straight guys isn’t a hobby?! But… I’m so good at it! 😉
I had a nice experience yesterday with the first coworker who my limerent brain wanted to transfer limerence to, but I fought it off like a bat to a shark.
I saw him from behind, just doing work, and a peaceful feeling flooded my being. I felt the opposite of limerence: I wanted him to be happy, and not have it be anything about me. It was like a love — unconditional. I can still admit he is a handsome man, gentle, kind … but at this time, no limerent feelings or thoughts. This is uncharted territory, but I think I am making some kind of progress. 💙
@Limerent nurse.
“Having crushes on cute, straight guys isn’t a hobby?! But… I’m so good at it! 😉”
Hahahaha! **Sammy laughs so hard he inhales his coffee, falls off his chair, and bumps his head on the floor**
Yes, if straight men were dolls, I’d happily collect the whole set. And they’d all be dressed in crisply-ironed, brightly-polished, brand-new uniforms, too. I was actually collecting male military dolls at one point. Imagine my disappointment when I discovered every last one was neuter down there. (I only bought them to study their anatomy in greater detail). Mattel has some serious explaining to do… 🙄😲
Sammy,
“Imagine my disappointment when I discovered every last one was neuter down there. (I only bought them to study their anatomy in greater detail). Mattel has some serious explaining to do… 🙄😲”
At least they’ve manscaped. 🙂
Sammy,
“Straight men don’t need any more adulation. No, really – they’re not deprived of praise.”
Actually, from what I’ve read, the average straight guy doesn’t get a lot of praise and attention. Straight guys don’t tend to share compliments/support with each other with their friends the way women do with their friends. He also probably doesn’t have women flirting with/noticing him.
I think a little bit of attention or praise can be very seductive, especially if he’s not getting a lot from an SO at home. (Which isn’t blaming the SO. I’m just making a point.)
@Marcia.
“Actually, from what I’ve read, the average straight guy doesn’t get a lot of praise and attention. Straight guys don’t tend to share compliments/support with each other with their friends the way women do with their friends. He also probably doesn’t have women flirting with/noticing him.”
Brilliantly observed and succinctly said. I’m happy to defer to your superior wisdom in this matter. 🙂
Sammy,
“Brilliantly observed and succinctly said. I’m happy to defer to your superior wisdom in this matter. 🙂”
Two sentences?! I almost feel cheated. 🙂
@Sammy
I am glad you had a good laugh! 😃 How’s your head?
If I collected my preference of man-dolls, they would be short, dark, handsome, metro and Mexican. And definitely not neutered. 💙
As a 46 year old gamer that interacts with mostly younger people I can tell you for the most part Miss Marcia is quite right. Western society has left young men starved for attention. The shift in gender views has left a lot of young men lonely, depressed and lost. I talked a young man online down from suicidal ideation because of his loneliness. It’s really sad to know. But damn I’m getting too heavy for a Saturday morning. Sorry.
Monsieur Adam,
“As a 46 year old gamer that interacts with mostly younger people I can tell you for the most part Miss Marcia is quite right. Western society has left young men starved for attention. The shift in gender views has left a lot of young men lonely, depressed and lost.”
When you write “starved for attention,” do you mean female attention? From what I’ve read, the average guy is pretty much ignored on dating sites. He has to send a lot of messages out to get a response.
I don’t think that’s a shift in gender views. It’s a shift to the internet, where everything is about “visuals.”
But even before the internet, there will be guys who get more female attention. They’re better looking, they’re most socially adept, etc. (The same is true for women getting male attention.)
In the workplace, I guess it would depend on the man’s position. A man in authority will get attention. People will kowtow to him.
Madam Marcia
From what I have been told it is that. Women have been much leeway in their association with men. And men have been caged by said societal views. I obviously can’t relate as I’m not in the dating market. But look into “men going their own way” and “passport bros” and you will see the disparity between men and women in Western culture. It’s a sad state of events that unfortunately Gen Z and by extension Millenials will go through.
Adam,
If certain men want to separate from women … they can go ahead. If they want to date non-U.S.-based women, that’s fine, too. If I stood up and announced I’d never date men again or men from the U.S., it’s not like there’d be protests in the street.
@Marcia.
“Two sentences?! I almost feel cheated. 🙂”
Sincere apologies, Miss Marcia. A skilled poker player knows when to walk away from the card table while he’s winning. I’m not sharing any of my winnings with you. All mine! All mine! All mine! 😁
But seriously – I agree with you that straight men on the whole probably do feel underappreciated in modern society – especially the young ones and maybe the long-time married ones also. Deprived of attention in general and deprived of female attention specifically.
It’s impossible to say whether the feeling of being underappreciated is justified or not. If a male is going through limerence, that will exacerbate any feelings he already has of being less-than, undesirable, etc, etc. I’m sure women feel this way too i.e. underappreciated, but mostly complain about it to girlfriends.
Happily, I have never suffered from the malaise of “little too female attention”, so find it difficult to empathise with this particular male social problem. I have a lot of charisma naturally. Men love me. Women love me. Puppy dogs love me. Pussycats love me. Random wild birds come and perch on my knee, because they know I’m a fine human being, a modern-day Saint Francis even. (True story). 🤣
My LO, though – he was probably the one young man on earth not in need of more attention. On the night of my school formal, I attended our pre-formal party with him, and I met his mother. I put my arm around my LO in front of his mother and said to his mother: “You have a lovely son.” My LO straightened up, puffed out his chest with pride, and beamed with pleasure. I’d never seen him so happy…
His mummy obviously loved him – that’s one woman admirer. Then there was his sister. Then there was his grandma. Then there was his date, skulking around in the shadows somewhere, and sending me death stares. (Bless her dear little heart. She knows who she is.
Cheer up, honey. Jesus loves you. I can’t help it if we both have the same superb taste in men. Always remember – he was my beloved before he was your beloved. You didn’t steal him from me. I just loaned him out to you on **cough, cough** permanent loan. Did I mention my favourite country song is “You Can Have Him Jolene” by Chapel Hart?) Then there was every girl in our grade at school.
Good gracious, I really do know how to pick ’em, don’t I? But you know what they say – we’re all feminists until someone sees a spider. 😜
@Limerent Nurse.
“I am glad you had a good laugh! 😃 How’s your head?”
The head is recovering nicely – thank you for asking. 🙂
“If I collected my preference of man-dolls, they would be short, dark, handsome, metro and Mexican. And definitely not neutered. 💙”
A gay man once asked me about my type. I answered honestly: “All sorts.” I wasn’t talking about brands of liquorice either. Never met a member of the less-fair sex I didn’t find adorable in some way. 😇
@Adam.
“But look into “men going their own way” and “passport bros” and you will see the disparity between men and women in Western culture. It’s a sad state of events that unfortunately Gen Z and by extension Millenials will go through.”
I think modern gender ideology is a real mess right now, and has been for the last 20 years. Everything is victimhood, victimhood, victimhood. Men and women are competing with each other, in a race to the bottom, to find out who can pretend to be the biggest victim of them all. What the biggest victim wins … I don’t know. 🙄
I don’t really think women are to blame for the mess men are in. I don’t think feminism is to blame for anything. I don’t think capitalism is to blame for anything. I think men are in a pickle due to a serious lack of fathering occurring all across the Western world.
Basically, no one is teaching young men how to have non-antagonistic relationships with the opposite sex. This means that young men can either (a) have antagonistic relationships with the opposite sex that result in domestic violence or (b) avoid relationships altogether. I do think avoiding relationships altogether is infinitely preferable to lashing out at the opposite sex. But society suffers as a whole when men and women can’t work together.
I came across some MGTOW stuff in my 20s. I’ll be honest with you – MGTOW ideas were superficially attractive to me, even as a gay man. I can see how younger males of any persuasion would be sucked into the movement.
The problem with MGTOW is that the ideas only make sense to young men. MGTOW doesn’t make sense to older men. It doesn’t make sense to men who enjoy the company of women. And it doesn’t make sense to anyone with a modicum of emotional intelligence.
I.e. in order to find MGTOW ideas appealing, one has to have high testosterone and low emotional intelligence. This is under-fathered young men in their 20s. One also has to believe that men, by virtue of being men, are automatically entitled to sex and relationships with women, and women should just provide these things.
MGTOW is based on male entitlement. It basically insists that women should give men everything men want, or men will respond by rejecting women. It sounds very much like a veiled threat of the most infantile kind. It’s like threatening to hold one’s breath if one’s parents won’t let one eat three tubs of ice-cream before bedtime.
I’m consuming a lot of media content on trans stuff at the moment, because I’m fascinated by what’s happening in America regarding all things trans. One can discover a lot of things about men and women by listening to people outside the binary, and also by listening to people who critique the claims made by people outside the binary.
It seems that transwomen consistently show one trait that biological women do not. The trait that transwomen display is a very narcissistic sense of feeling entitled to sex and relationships. This entitlement is a male thing and not a female thing, and really betrays the true biological sex of the transwoman in question. (I.e. male).
In other words, biological women certainly value sex and relationships. However, biological women rarely feel entitled to those things. Biological women (and the very small percentage of human men who genuinely resemble biological women) aren’t “predatory” in the way men are “predatory”. Biological women and genuinely feminine men (i.e. drag queens and transwomen who are romantically attracted to men) aren’t instinctual “hunters”.
This eerie sense of male entitlement in many so-called transwomen was something female commentators were able to pick up on time and again. It’s certainly odd why someone identifying as a woman would feel entitled to sex and relationships with biological women in a male way. I.e. why is this so-called woman acting like a straight dude in terms of her dating behaviour? And not even a gentlemanly straight dude but a very pushy and self-centred straight dude?
I think the undeniably male entitlement of many transwomen is why biological women feel threatened by transwomen. I.e. from a female point of view, transwomen aren’t “fellow women” and don’t act like fellow women in the realm of sex/relationships. These transwomen are very much men (in terms of innate psychology) infiltrating female spaces for purposes that can indeed seem shady at best.
One transwoman in Japan apparently gained access to an all-female bathhouse. Once inside, he went into rhapsodies about peaches and pears and marshmallows. He felt as if he’d died and gone to heaven. Honestly, in his report, he sounded suspiciously like a straight male – and a very immature straight male at that. He plainly lusted after all the women he saw towel-clad in the all-female bathhouse, and was lusting after them without their prior knowledge or consent. It makes no sense to call this person a “she” when this “she” thinks like a “he” and processes erotic stimuli in the way a “he” does.
It seems to me that if modern gender madness is teaching us anything, it’s teaching us to go back to the basics in our understanding of sexuality. It seems like there really is such a thing as a male brain, and this brain lusts powerfully after women.
It also seems that women are naturally much less lustful than men, although women certainly do have some independent sex drive of their own. It seems that biological women almost never pose a sexual threat to other biological women and/or children. Only males consistently pose a sexual threat to biological women and/or children.
This is not the same thing as saying all men are predators. Most men aren’t predators. Most men are extremely nice. But men have an inborn potential for predatory behaviour that women lack. It’s just an ugly fact of male evolutionary history that can’t be ignored.
It seems entirely reasonable to me for society to put restrictions in place to protect women (and young girls especially) from the lust of adult men.
It makes no sense to me whatsoever to let adult men identify as women when these adult men, irrespective of appearance, share little in common with biological women in terms of their innate sexual psychology.
I never thought I’d feel sorry for human women. But today I feel sorry for human women.
One learns something new every day! 😜
Mr. Sammy,
“All mine! All mine! All mine!”
#Greedy 🙂
“I agree with you that straight men on the whole probably do feel underappreciated in modern society – especially the young ones and maybe the long-time married ones also. Deprived of attention in general and deprived of female attention specifically.”
Well, if you’re a partnered or married guy and not getting enough female attention … go home to your partner/spouse. 🙂 That’s not really the issue I was talking about. But if you’re a straight guy of any age trying to date and being ignored … that would be extremely difficult.
“It’s impossible to say whether the feeling of being underappreciated is justified or not. If a male is going through limerence, that will exacerbate any feelings he already has of being less-than, undesirable, etc,”
I mean, limerence is very painful, but if you have an SO, you can’t really bemoan not getting attention from the LO. Or if the limerent has an unavailable LO. Even if both the LO and the limerent are available but the LO isn’t interested … at some point … the limerent needs to understand that it’s one person who’s not interested. It’s hard to think like that while in the middle of limerence, but it’s true.
“Happily, I have never suffered from the malaise of “little too female attention”, so find it difficult to empathise with this particular male social problem. I have a lot of charisma naturally. Men love me. Women love me. Puppy dogs love me. Pussycats love me. Random wild birds come and perch on my knee, because they know I’m a fine human being, a modern-day Saint Francis even. (True story). 🤣”
I can tell by your writing. 🙂
” I put my arm around my LO in front of his mother and said to his mother: “You have a lovely son.” My LO straightened up, puffed out his chest with pride, and beamed with pleasure. I’d never seen him so happy…”
See? He needed the attention. He needed the “that-a-boy,” the compliment. Nothing wrong with that. I think women compliment their friends in a way men don’t. Women hear a lot more positive feedback.
“Then there was his date, skulking around in the shadows somewhere, and sending me death stares. (Bless her dear little heart. She knows who she is.”
There is no one more capable of ruining a perfectly lovely moment than an LO’s date or SO. 🙂
“Did I mention my favourite country song is “You Can Have Him Jolene” by Chapel Hart?) ”
It’s not “Save a Horse, Ride a Cowboy”? 🙂 That’s my personal favorite.
“Good gracious, I really do know how to pick ’em, don’t I? But you know what they say – we’re all feminists until someone sees a spider. 😜”
No, we’re all feminists until some hot guy shows up. 🙂
This MGTOW movement sounds like the grown-up version of the He-Man Woman Hater’s Club….
I’m all for female empowerment and have learned about how chromosomes can differ from the norm and cause someone to legitimately be trans. But I would hope that ultimately the guys who just want to get more access to unclothed women will get weeded out of the trans community. And there are certain facts of evolution and biology that make certain traits more likely in men/women. Doesn’t mean one is less capable than the other. I try to deal with spiders myself, but usually I base my actions on respect for life. 🙂 And I know how to open jars myself. But if it involves something mechanical or heavy, I leave that for the hubby.
@Serial Limerent.
MGTOW and the trans movement are two totally different things, in case anyone was confused.
MGTOW has largely died out as a movement, I’m happy to say. It didn’t make much sense to begin with. (“Bro logic” is sometimes even more inane than “lady logic”, regardless of who was volunteering to squash or not to squash the spiders). 🤣
Yes, MGTOW was like a club of eight-year-old boys all hiding out in one corner of the playground, and bonding over the fact “girls have cooties”. (The girls were playing at the other end of the playground, and had no idea the boys were even talking about them). 🙄
A lot of social media platforms saw the whole premise of MGTOW as malicious – which it is. The only upside of MGTOW was maybe it helped a few young guys realise they might benefit talking to other men about their problems. However, these other men need to be emotionally-mature men, i.e. responsible father-figures and/or happily-married older men, who can actually give good advice.
I’ve got nothing against transwomen. The point I was trying to make is that there appears to be two different types of transwomen at the moment in the US. The first group doesn’t bother biological women. The second group does bother biological women.
The first group of transwomen is what we would traditionally understand as transwomen. These transwomen exude feminine energy, but they don’t really chase guys (or girls). They usually have no problems attracting a male partner due to their femininity. This male partner is a “straight man” with a trans fetish. (Each to their own). This is the group of transwomen that are similar in behaviour to biological women, and they tend to fit into society quite well.
The second group of transwomen exude masculine energy, which is very confusing, since they’re claiming to be real women. Some of these transwomen pursue men, but won’t be upfront about their trans status, which seems deceitful. (If a man wants to live life as a gay man, fine, live life as a gay man). Some of these transwomen pursue women, usually lesbians, and pressure the lesbians into unwanted sex with someone who has the psychosexuality of a male but who masquerades as a woman to play on female sympathies.
Apparently, oestrogen does raise a person’s emotional intelligence. However, oestrogen does make people easier to manipulate too. (The person with the oestrogen is the person easy to manipulate. Men who identify as transwomen aren’t required to take hormones).
Perhaps the oestrogen factor is why so many biological women feel sorry for biological men even when biological men mistreat biological women. (Biological women often refuse to leave male abusers, and want to “nurse” broken/wayward men back to emotional health). Lesbians are apparently very susceptible to manipulation from transwomen with masculine energy. This is odd because lesbians, by virtue of being lesbians, want to pair-bond with fellow women. Lesbians have the same “nursing instincts” as heterosexual women, and won’t call out shady-acting males.
On a different note, I have also noticed that biological women naturally possess this “softness of beauty” to their facial features which men almost never possess. Even when biological males undergo facial feminisation surgery and take hormones, they never acquire the softness of natural female beauty. They only acquire a harsher beauty, which I think is interesting. Make-up can rarely replicate the softness of natural female beauty on a male face.
In case any of the ladies here are offended, drag queens (gay men who dress up as women for entertainment purposes) do not resemble women aesthetically. Good heavens, no. That would be an insult to the women of planet earth. Drag queens are only similar to biological women in some of their social/emotional psychology.
For example, the main audience of RuPaul’s Drag Race isn’t actually gay men. The main audience of RuPaul’s Drag Race is heterosexual women. Now I don’t think heterosexual women are tuning into Drag Race to get fashion tips. I think heterosexual women are tuning into Drag Race because they see (and enjoy seeing) some of their own female psychology mirrored back at them by the male contestants.
Basically, straight women form emotional attachments to the men on the show, and they see a little of themselves in those men. The backstage drama on Drag Race is what appeals to women viewers, the micro rivalries, the nasty little digs, but also the wonderful friendships too. It’s like a soap opera, but with zanier outfits. 😉
@Marcia.
“But if you’re a straight guy of any age trying to date and being ignored … that would be extremely difficult.”
Your empathy for males is admirable. We need more of that in society. Empathy is the antidote to misdirected anger at the opposite sex.
Yes, you’re absolutely right. Plenty of straight guys do struggle to secure even the smallest quantity of female attention, and I do believe it impacts their self-esteem pretty badly. Some guys seem to attract all the girls and some guys seem to attract none.
The guy with a history of attracting few/no girls would make the better boyfriend/husband I think – as long as he doesn’t let his insecurities destroy his relationship with his female partner. (I.e. he mistreats her because he’s scared that she’s going to leave him).
“Even if both the LO and the limerent are available but the LO isn’t interested … at some point … the limerent needs to understand that it’s one person who’s not interested. It’s hard to think like that while in the middle of limerence, but it’s true.”
Truer words were never spoken. 🙂
“I can tell by your writing. 🙂”
Thank you. I do get “high” at times off my own special brand of silliness. Must be an INFJ thing. We’re the most serious of humans. We’re the silliest of humans. I think we just enjoy our own weirdness at the end of the day, and don’t care if other people don’t get it. 🙄
“See? He needed the attention. He needed the “that-a-boy,” the compliment. Nothing wrong with that. I think women compliment their friends in a way men don’t. Women hear a lot more positive feedback.”
Yes, men need compliments. But any compliment sounds sweeter coming from the lips of a female admirer. 😉
“It’s not “Save a Horse, Ride a Cowboy”? 🙂 That’s my personal favorite.”
No, Miss Marcia. That sounds way too dirty for me. Get your mind out of the gutter! I’ll have you know I have an exceptionally pure mind. Mama raised me right. 😇
“No, we’re all feminists until some hot guy shows up. 🙂”
Okay, Okay. I think you’ve won this round. Well-played! 😆
But he’s not yours if I can beat you out the door! And I brought a giant jar of plastic spiders to release strategically at the right moment to keep you from getting to the door first.
Whatever you do, don’t stand on your chair and act like a damsel in distress. You know how gentlemen out West can’t resist saving a damsel in distress.
He’s mine, Jolene. When I said you could have him, I lied. He’s mine! He’s mine! He’s mine! 🤣😜
„ “Did I mention my favourite country song is “You Can Have Him Jolene” by Chapel Hart?) ”
It’s not “Save a Horse, Ride a Cowboy”? 🙂 That’s my personal favorite.
“Good gracious, I really do know how to pick ’em, don’t I? But you know what they say – we’re all feminists until someone sees a spider. 😜”
No, we’re all feminists until some hot guy shows up. 🙂“
🙂 You both made me laugh for the first time today.
Sammy Sams,
“Yes, you’re absolutely right. Plenty of straight guys do struggle to secure even the smallest quantity of female attention, and I do believe it impacts their self-esteem pretty badly.”
I’m a middle-aged woman. I understand it perfectly.
“The guy with a history of attracting few/no girls would make the better boyfriend/husband I think”
Idk. What happens if they suddenly start getting other female attention? Could be very seductive and hard to shut down.
“I think we just enjoy our own weirdness at the end of the day, and don’t care if other people don’t get it.”
I feel that way as an INFP. 🙂
“Yes, men need compliments. But any compliment sounds sweeter coming from the lips of a female admirer. 😉”
Well, yeah, but it can be a slippery slope if the man in question has an SO.
” Mama raised me right. 😇”
I’m sorry to hear that. 🙂
“Whatever you do, don’t stand on your chair and act like a damsel in distress. You know how gentlemen out West can’t resist saving a damsel in distress.”
I think you’re right. I have to say: I don’t get it. But being a damsel in distress is even more effective than being chilly and not wearing a bra. 🙂
Mila,
„ “Did I mention my favourite country song is “You Can Have Him Jolene” by Chapel Hart?) ”
“It’s not “Save a Horse, Ride a Cowboy”? 🙂 That’s my personal favorite.”
“🙂 You both made me laugh for the first time today.”
It’s a great song. 🙂
Cause I saddle up my horse
and I ride into the city
I make a lot of noise
Cause the girls
They are so pretty
Riding up and down Broadway
on my old stud Leroy
And the girls say
Save a horse, ride a cowboy.
Miss Marcia
“Well, if you’re a partnered or married guy and not getting enough female attention … go home to your partner/spouse.”
Yes one should go to their wife. But just like in limerence the man needs a receptive partner to give them attention and intimacy. If that is not what it is happening the man will eventually give up after weeks, months, years; before they give in and realize that they are stuck in a sexless and/or loveless marriage.
And from what I have researched most all affair (and I feel like limerence too) stem from a man being stuck in that position. I read various polls that men and women participated in anonymously that in the 80 percentile men have admitted to either having an affair or thinking about having an affair because they are stuck in a sexless and/or loveless marriage.
Women’s poll results were in the same percentile when asked the same question but their results were that their emotional needs weren’t being met in the marriage.
Unmet needs, it seems, for men or women, to just go away. They have to be addressed. Otherwise we have unhappy people seeking the affections they are not getting at home with someone else. Whether it is consciously; an affair or subconsciously; limerence.
And posting this I am not saying that unmet needs is a valid excuse for affairs of any kind or limerence. But they statistically are the cause with affairs.
Adam,
“Unmet needs, it seems, for men or women, to just go away. They have to be addressed.”
Address the issue with the spouse or leave.
I’m not looking to fulfill the attention needs of a partnered guy. Not my job. 🙂 I think my LO was really selfish. Not that I wasn’t an active participant, but I am not going to be sucked up into that again.
@Marcia.
Sammy says: ” Mama raised me right. 😇”
Marcia says: “I’m sorry to hear that. 🙂”
That comeback is classic, Marcia. That comeback is a comeback worthy of the great Mae West herself! Well done! I’m impressed. 😆
It reminds me of another great comeback line in an old movie. I’m not sure who the actress was. Wife addresses husband when husband is clearly in the mood: “Mr So-and-So (insert name of male character here), you have a very naughty mind – I’m happy to say!” 😁
Sammy,
“That comeback is classic, Marcia. That comeback is a comeback worthy of the great Mae West herself! Well done! I’m impressed. 😆”
I looked up some Mae West quotes. I think this fits our conversation: “When I’m good, I’m good. When I’m bad, I’m better.”
@Marcia.
“When I’m good, I’m good. When I’m bad, I’m better.”
Haha! And you have to say it (and all of West’s other great lines) in an innocently factual yet tantalisingly sensual Southern drawl… 🙂
I’m not surprised this woman fell foul of the 1930s movie censors. It seems to me that suggestive language is seen as a lot more dangerous than explicitly bad language, because all the dirtiness is in the mind of the listener.
The actual speaker (West) didn’t say anything remotely offensive. She didn’t resort to taboo words that littered our movie screens today. For this reason, West is one of those rare stars whose witticisms still seem pretty subversive decades later.
She only ever hinted at improprieties. What those improprieties might be she never said. Yet she was crucified during her lifetime as a very wicked woman, and a menace to public morals. Of course, she was very popular with the general public, too. I guess she was Madonna about 50 years before Madonna showed up.
Also, I think West was subversive because she implied that women feel desire, too. And the word “women” in West’s case was always inclusive of older women and odd-looking women because West looked neither young nor conventionally beautiful. Society still can’t acknowledge desire in certain types of women, and so that desire can only find expression through the medium of comedy. 😇
Sammy,
“Society still can’t acknowledge desire in certain types of women, and so that desire can only find expression through the medium of comedy. 😇”
There’s probably some truth to that. Only young or youngish women who are conventionally attractive can show desire.
West started out in vaudeville. She borrowed heavily from drag queens. She actually wrote a play called “The Drag.”
She wrote a lot of her own stuff, if not all of it. Which for a woman, at the time, was revolutionary.
Another one of her lines I really like: I used to be Snow White, but I drifted. 🙂
Marcia,
Are you familiar with Cynthia Heimel?
She was a feminist humorist writer in the 80s and beyond. She died in 2018. I encountered her when I had a subscription to “Playboy” in 1983. She wrote several books, including “Sex Tips For Girls.” I bought the book and loved it! It’s hilarious.
I bought copies for LO #2 and my accountant. My accountant loved it and LO #2 hated it. I would have thought it would have been the other way around.
Reading her biography, Cynthia sounds like the kind of woman that I would have loved to have known. I think being her consort would have been positively wonderful. If you could have that woman’s attention and affection, you probably had something going for you.
I know your disdain for links but this is a link to some of her best quotes: https://libquotes.com/cynthia-heimel
“‘Slut’ used to mean a slovenly woman. Now it means a woman who will go to bed with everyone. This is considered a bad thing in a woman, although perfectly fabulous in a man. ‘Bitch’ means a woman who will go to bed with everyone but you.”
“Infidelity is such a pretty word, so light and delicate. Whereas the act itself is dark and thick with guilt, betrayal, confusion, pain, and (okay) sometimes enormous pleasure.”
LE,
“‘Slut’ used to mean a slovenly woman. Now it means a woman who will go to bed with everyone. This is considered a bad thing in a woman, although perfectly fabulous in a man. ‘Bitch’ means a woman who will go to bed with everyone but you.””
Love it!
Two more of hers I like: Never judge someone by who he’s in love with; judge him by his friends. People fall in love with the most appalling people. Take a cool, appraising glance at his pals.
Sex is not some sort of pristine, reverent ritual. You want reverent and pristine, go to church.
I also love quotes by writer Gore Vidal:
“I never miss a chance to have sex or appear on television.”
“A narcissist is someone better looking than you are.”
“There is no human problem which could not be solved if people would simply do as I advise.”
“Style is knowing who you are, what you want to say, and not giving a damn.”
@Marcia.
“Another one of her [Mae’s] lines I really like: I used to be Snow White, but I drifted. 🙂”
Haha! Even the fact she admitted she drifted is funny, never mind the play on words.
I rewatched a few short clips of “Gone With the Wind”. You were right about Vivien Leigh – her beauty is luminous on screen and she just smoulders in every scene – truly, a performance of a lifetime!
Anyone who watched GTTW when younger should go back and watch it when they’re older. Learning about limerence too makes many plot points instantly understandable. 😜
It seems to me that Scarlett only belatedly realised Rhett was the right man for her. And by the time Scarlett woke up to herself, Rhett was like: “Too late! Thank you, but the moment has passed.”
Sammy,
“You were right about Vivien Leigh – her beauty is luminous on screen and she just smoulders in every scene – truly, a performance of a lifetime!”
She’s gorgeous in that movie. And I agree. She’s terrific in it.
“Anyone who watched GWTW when younger should go back and watch it when they’re older. Learning about limerence too makes many plot points instantly understandable. ”
Yes! Only limerence would explain why she would pick Ashley over Rhett! Leigh’s real-life husband, actor Laurence Oliver, starred in another movie classic, “Wuthering Heights,” in the same year, 1939, that GWTW was out. Another movie about limerence. And he was just as gorgeous as she was.
“And by the time Scarlett woke up to herself, Rhett was like: “Too late! Thank you, but the moment has passed.””
Yeah, he was done. He’d had enough.
@Marcia.
Here’s a quote that you must have inadvertently inspired:
“Of all the tenets mentioned in discussions about levity,
By far the most important and the best of them is brevity …”
This quote is from Ogden Gnash. Mind you, I didn’t say Ogden Nash. I said Ogden Gnash. Gnash with a ‘G’. Ogden Gnash is a pen-name of Australian satirist John Clarke.
John Clarke had parodied many famous poets. His other pen-names include but are not limited to: Alexandra Pope, Sylvia Blath, Very Manly Hopkins, Emmy-Lou Dickinson, Stewie Smith, and b. b. hummings.
If any or all of those names sound suspiciously familiar, they should be – all the great poets throughout history (writing in English) have come from Australia, you see. You’ve just been tricked into believing they come from Britain and the States. 😉
Sammy,
“Of all the tenets mentioned in discussions about levity,
By far the most important and the best of them is brevity …”
Yes! 🙂
“If any or all of those names sound suspiciously familiar, they should be – all the great poets throughout history (writing in English) have come from Australia, you see.”
I believe it. Australia also gave the world the Bee Gees and Andy Gibb. A great country!
somewhere i have never travelled, gladly beyond
E. E. Cummings. 1894 –1962
somewhere i have never travelled, gladly beyond
any experience, your eyes have their silence:
in your most frail gesture are things which enclose me,
or which i cannot touch because they are too near
your slightest look easily will unclose me
though i have closed myself as fingers,
you open always petal by petal myself as Spring opens
(touching skillfully, mysteriously) her first rose
or if your wish be to close me, i and
my life will shut very beautifully, suddenly,
as when the heart of this flower imagines
the snow carefully everywhere descending;
nothing which we are to perceive in this world equals
the power of your intense fragility: whose texture
compels me with the colour of its countries,
rendering death and forever with each breathing
(i do not know what it is about you that closes
and opens; only something in me understands
the voice of your eyes is deeper than all roses)
nobody, not even the rain, has such small hands
This E.E. Cummings poem was my mainstay in high school. It spoke to me at a you g age about those intense crushes. Thanks for the happy reminder of my high school innocence 💙
These intense feelings can happen at any age to both sexes, after a lightening glimmer strike before full-blown limerence…
*****
MAY-DAY
DAUGHTER of Heaven and Earth, coy Spring,
With sudden passion languishing,
Teaching barren moors to smile,
Painting pictures mile on mile,
Holds a cup with cowslip-wreaths,
Whence a smokeless incense breathes.
The air is full of whistlings bland;
What was that I heard
Out of the hazy land?
Harp of the wind, or song of bird,
Or vagrant booming of the air,
Voice of a meteor lost in day?
Such tidings of the starry sphere
Can this elastic air convey.
Or haply ‘t was the cannonade
Of the pent and darkened lake,
Cooled by the pendent mountain’s shade,
Whose deeps, till beams of noonday break,
Afflicted moan, and latest hold
Even into May the iceberg cold.
Was it a squirrel’s pettish bark,
Or clarionet of jay? or hark
-Emerson
Drivel, in my humble opinion, but each to his own…
@Frederico.
“Drivel, in my humble opinion, but each to his own…’
Your frank evaluation of Cumming and Emerson’s work made me laugh. I am not sure why. But … always a pleasure to meet a critic of poetry willing to speak his mind. 😉
Are you sure “drivel” was the word you were going for? Come now, my friend. Maybe we can be a little more generous than that? Maybe we could call it “drivel lite” or “almost drivel” or “one-and-a-half notches above pure drivel” or “not the artists’ best work”? 😆
Are you sure you’re not letting your current mood dictate your taste in great American literature? The ups and down of limerence can be pretty brutal, and the bad feelings come and go. Some days, you’ll feel almost okay, and then the next day you’ll go back to being down in the dumps.
I like poems full of concrete imagery myself. I don’t need “smokeless incense”. Sounds like it comes from a plant that’s been genetically modified. Regular incense will suffice, thank you very much. 😁
Hope you feel a little better soon, mister. Big hugs. 🙂
I dig your sentiment “Each to his own” – it is a fabulous mantra. But I will annoyingly rearrange the word order so it’s more pleasing to the musically-trained ear: “To each his own.” Now that’s a line one could start a poem with! 😜
You’ve got to learn to go through life, Frederico, as if you are a doting father attending Open Day at your imaginary daughter’s imaginary high school. When your fictional thirteen-year-old shows you some avant-garde sculpture she made in art class, you must learn to say the following: “Oh, it’s lovely, dear. What is it? A deconstructed piece of rubbish that represents a deconstructed piece of rubbish? My, my! How original! Yes, the resemblance your gorgeous artwork bears to a deconstructed piece of rubbish is positively uncanny!”
Forgive me. I’m in a bit of an Oscar Wilde mood today. 😇
@Sammy
I could say this to you without it getting weird or limerent between the two of us (because I cannot get limerent for a gay man, and from your posts you cannot get limerent for a straight woman) but I do think you are adorable. I really enjoy your writing, and can track it very easily.
But it’s probably because we kind of share the same mind 🌟
But complimenting straight men would no doubt get me in trouble with limerence, because I tend to only desire to compliment the ones I am attracted to, and that would just confuse us both. 😅
@Limerent nurse.
“I do think you are adorable.”
Thank you. I think I’m adorable, too. 😁
“But complimenting straight men would no doubt get me in trouble with limerence, because I tend to only desire to compliment the ones I am attracted to, and that would just confuse us both. 😅”
I totally agree with you. I just meant that men and women who are already in committed relationships with each other should remember to appreciate each other. I think a lot of men have this thing about “needing to be needed”. If a wife can convey “I need you” in a genuine way, the marriage is likely to flourish because the man is likely to want to keep investing in the marriage. 😜
@Adam
What a blessing you are to your gaming friend. 🙌
Correction: at a young age
I really needed this today….
I have been feeling so high, so sure of my LOs reciprocation and then *thud* back down to Earth with a bump – awful 😢
But I just know that as soon as an interaction that I view as positive happens again, I’m going to be high again.
Hi Lisa. Yes, the highs and lows are so tricky to navigate, talk about extreme feelings. Now that I seem to doing better with regards to my LE, the highs and lows have plateaued. As Limerent Nurse said, I am hoping that I am reaching a baseline pre LE version of myself. I wish the same for you!
To the Dr. L and LwL community, I am so grateful for you. I’ve been soaking up the articles and people’s stories for about 6 weeks now, in an attempt to stop this debilitating LE. In my definition of limerence, I’m in LE#2. But crushes, countless. I didn’t even realize I basically bounce from one to the next. I think it started in HS/university, for some reason I was only interested in boys/men who weren’t interested in me, and never keen on the ones who liked me. I’ve been happily married for over 20 years so figured that was just the past, but it’s all coming back now as I try to uncover the roots of this side of my personality.
I’d like to ask for advice from you-why won’t this go away?? What started as simple enjoyment of seeing LO turned into massive distress about 2 months ago. I found this blog, and hoped that the explanation would be enough to make it simmer down for me. ALL of the symptoms, I had. People’s comments hit home. It was a relief to know I’m not alone.
But I’m doing everything I can with behavior. I went NC almost immediately. I had one brief, necessary contact last week and made it as short as possible. It didn’t stop me from shaking, and it ruined the next 48 hours for me.
I stopped looking at his social media. I stopped texting. Boy was that painful, realizing the texts had almost always been initiated by me.
I disallow fantasy, but sometimes I just have to replace it with someone else, because I can’t sleep without the pleasant thoughts.
But the intrusive thoughts do not budge. I still cry in the car. I still get massively disturbed when I see him from afar (unavoidable to some extent). I am putting energy into my SO, being rewarded for it, but can be having a very nice time and BAM-there he is, in my thoughts, ruining my night. It’s hardest when I’m tired, so I’m going to bed early.
This is excruciating. Sometimes it seems as though the only replacement for the happy daydreams is a heavy blanket of SHAME. I am so deeply embarrassed, now that I realize he might have known what I was up to and that what I thought was friendly flirting was probably just…a friendly acquaintance. I doubt he’s given me any thought since I went NC (or worse, maybe he’s relieved).
Please, can someone remind me there is hope?
Hi Faith,
I want to encourage you that eventually the thoughts should stop once no contact starts. But it took me 4-6 months, if not a full year, to fully recover from intrusive thoughts and emotions. I was not choosing to ruminate; they just simply were there. They may get worse before they get better. Just cry it out and let the emotions out, in private if so. It will feel like you are mourning a death of someone. It’s illogical, but your limerent brain will do it anyway! It’s healthier than keeping them in, and helped me in my grieving.
The start of true no contact for me was when they left the workplace altogether. If it is limerence, it should get better with lots of time. It sounds like you are doing everything right — but limerence has its own pace, and it can be extremely slow. You are definitely not alone!
Why doesn’t it go away? I, like you, have had countless crushes, some reciprocated, some not. And I am married for 14 years, so why would this not just go away? I just think it’s a part of my brain make-up, since it’s been here all along since childhood and I don’t have any trauma to account for it. So I have to do symptom management to prevent myself from having new limerent experiences. It’s a weird addiction/quirk to have, but it’s a work in progress. 💙
Hello Faith
I think that Limerent Nurse’s description is a great summary.
Uncovering the psychological roots always seems to me to be a little bit tricky. I know that several posters have tried to do just that. I have a general idea but I am slightly apprehensive about digging too deep and, personally, I question the value. I reckon we all have an idea about our childhood experiences.
Yes, limerence is staggeringly debilitating.
You are absolutely not alone. As to the question “why won’t this go away?”, my heart goes out to you, Faith. It takes self-discipline (no contact, no social media etc.) but it also takes time – longer than you might think, depending on how deeply entrenched you are. I think it is amazing that you “went NC almost immediately”. You handled this better than I did and I think you will benefit enormously. Going No Contact, against the odds, shows strength and bravery i.m.h.o.
Yes, yes, stopping social media and texting is key.
The intrusive thoughts are truly dreadful; again you seem to have this sewn up, the theory at least, for now.
Excruciating – yes, for sure.
Shame and embarrassment – yes, so many of us have felt that pain. I think those feelings may become exaggerated because of our mental state – hopefully temporary.
Well, Faith, I feel for you because of your descriptions. I can certainly remind you that there is hope. My own limerence is, somewhat belatedly fading. I have experienced some dark times but there is hope,
I feel sure of that.
f
Hi Frederico,
“Uncovering the psychological roots always seems to me to be a little bit tricky. I know that several posters have tried to do just that. I have a general idea but I am slightly apprehensive about digging too deep and, personally, I question the value. I reckon we all have an idea about our childhood experiences.”
Yes I think what you say, once again is totally on the mark. What we want is tools or techniques to deal with symptoms as they arise in the moment. Whether it be sadness, anger or drifting into reverie with an unavailable LO. ” If we’ve been ‘around the block’ a few times we probably already have a good idea of why we may be the way we are and anyway so what?
At the end of the day, we’re responsible for our own moods and our own reactions.
We need to be aware of any propensity for blaming, reactivity and having the identity of a victim.
I know my own brain and the stuff it can throw up. If I’m really tired, I can feel the old anger and resentment (bitterness) against historical LO and I know I need sleep. I’ve also learnt not to believe my thinking if it goes a bit wonky. Our brains secrete thoughts, that’s simply what it does.
Warm, golden daydreams of me and LO are like injecting heroin into my veins, and I need to cut that off as it arises.
I’m grateful to this site for making me question my own erroneous assumptions of making contact with LO, and see it’s my own limerent brain (Part X?) taking me down that painful, unprofitable path again.
Thanks to all for the support and clear thinking on fighting back against the limerence affliction.
Thank you, Grego. That’s interesting and I agree with your thoughts.
Faith
First off I am glad that you found this place much sooner in your limerence than I did. Now you can, and you are, nip it in the bud. Not “make up for lost time” like I had to do in my marriage.
“I’d like to ask for advice from you-why won’t this go away??”
I would say that, as I found out for my own limerence, that there is a root to why not only did you become limerent but also why you became limerent for the particular person that you did. There’s a reason for a limerent episode and a limerent object. When I figured out what were my two reasons I was better able to discipline myself to move on.
It’s been two years almost since no contact and one evening not too long ago when my wife asked me something (half asleep) I called her by LO’s name. I don’t tell you this to make you feel like you will never break free, but that because my wife didn’t berate me for it or even acknowledge it, that you have to forgive yourself as well, when you have set backs. When I first found this place I loved to be hard on myself, let the guilt eat me up, and flog myself. But it got me nowhere but miserable. Forgive yourself Faith. Have faith in Faith. And it will make the positive steps you are already making feel like progress.
Limerent Nurse makes a good point that at the start it will feel like mourning a death. And in a way it is. It is the death of the fantasy and idealization of a limerent object. And just as physical death can seem so permanent and final, it really is just another part of the journey of a person. When you are done mourning limerent death you will be able to move on with your journey as a person.
Faith
“nip it in the bud“
I think that just about sums it up. Adam is a stalwart on LwL and his opinions, through his tough experiences, are very important to the mix.
f
Adam, this was the understatement of the year…
“ When I first found this place I loved to be hard on myself, let the guilt eat me up, and flog myself.”
You’ve come far, Friend.
Hi Faith,
Sorry for your experience with limerence. You’re definitely not alone.
You are ahead by going NC. There’s not a magic wand to make this affliction to go away.
Going NC is like grieving the loss of a relationship, even if there isn’t any reciprocation.
Read Dr. L’s posts on NC, the loneliness of NC.
Check out the following site on the stages of grief, it will help you understand your feelings.
Site: Healthline
“The Stages of grief and what to expect.” Updated May 17, 2023)
Wishing you strength and courage.
Hi Faith,
Thanks for sharing. A lot of good advice so far and NC is definitely the right action to take.
I struggle massively with intrusive thoughts, though I work with LO and have to interact with her regularly. I practice very strict LC with her. I named my interaction demeanor business boring. I only talk necessary work items with her and I make it brief and boring.
One thing that helped me is accepting intrusive thoughts as a fact of life right now. I’m not going to squash them but at the same time I don’t need to be controlled by them or feel guilty over them. They just are and as I think them I just try to brush them aside. Try to understand that you have some bad brain chemicals going on and it is going to take time. Months and months, but with NC it will get better. In the meantime just accept it as a fact of life and do what you can to live life purposefully in the midst of it, loving yourself and your SO.
Hi Faith,
You have nothing to feel shamed about. You experienced a delightful person, who you could never seriously pursue, you explored the foothills of that before realising that it was beginning to get out of control, at which point you stopped it. Therefore, you put your SO first. And as for your LO, he probably enjoyed the attention. Most people love attention. There is no need for shame. That’s just the devil on your shoulder and you can tell him to buzz off.
All you need to do is keep doing what you’re doing, stop the daydreaming for your own good and, in turn, the intrusive thoughts will reduce. But it can take a long time, which is frustrating (boy, do I get that part). But it will probably never be as bad as it feels right now, just after you started to deploy these tactics.
Courage and strength!
Hello Faith. I am sorry that you are feeling low. You have absolutely done the right thing by going NC, this includes social media. NC will be painful at first, but it will get better and better with time.
Intrusive thoughts are a whole different beast though. As others have correctly said, let the thoughts come, but try not to spend too much time on them. Slowly but surely, the thoughts will not bother you too much.
If you cannot avoid seeing LO, this makes it harder, as seeing them brings out all the emotions. This may lead to a temporary low for you, but you will always feel better.
I would say, just be patient and keep going, you will feel better very soon. Good luck!
I should have added, I am also living a purposeful life. I always have, but I’m trying to put my heart back into it now. I’m busy, but almost because I have to be. Free time is a bit dangerous.
@Faith
Hi! I am not sure if you have any previous posts, but I am glad you are living a purposeful life. I too feel very blessed to have a satisfying career, good marriage, loving family, involved in the community… and yet somehow the potential for limerence remains. Even after delving into therapy, prayer time, faith, it still remains.
I call it the “thorn in my flesh.” I have personally come to accept that limerence will likely always be a part of my brain make-up; so now I am learning to manage the symptoms and outcomes. There may not be an answer or a cure for it, but if you work hard, you can try to manage 💙
I left my employer abruptly this week and it appears I might already be nearly NC with LO. It feels like I’m in the immediate aftermath of a loved one’s death… I’m sure many of you know the symptoms…
I have a coworker that is very close to LO and has been the sorta middle man between us. He’s quite fond of the two of us separately, but often clumps us together as his “favorites” and it feels completely natural when he does this. Earlier this week I was catching up with the coworker and I complimented his recent mentoring achievement by recanting something special I had written about him in a memoir I wrote last year. Not knowing I write, he was impressed and then said, “gosh, LO and I were talking about how smart you are last week, that you’re too smart for us but that we’re also really glad you are here!”. They also discussed how they enjoy and benefit from my “feminine energy” I exude and I felt a strong sense of relief and interpreted it as an affirmation about LO…. I can’t tell you the number of times each week LO showed me random stuff on his phone and I felt that it was to intentionally draw me nearer to him (which was always yummy… especially when my fingers would graze over his as I scrolled back to something…).
Now it’s over… and the tears won’t dry before I seize again with sobs… and right now the only thing that makes me feel any better is to work on those personal essays. They are introspective, engaging, and often humorous accounts of my time with my employer and many of my coworkers, but especially of LO. Yes, I talk about dealing with complex and difficult emotions but I also express appreciation, admiration and give a deep sense of joy and gratitude. So I’ve decided to give my coworker the four essays I believe most authentically capture my feelings and interpretations of everything that happened while I was there, especially highlighting the maddening but sweet interactions between LO and I.
These men have been important to me and I don’t want to leave without them knowing that I never once took them for “a lot of simpletons” (as LO once said). And I do feel it’s important for LO to know that despite the advancing years and downsized life he remains worthy of a woman’s love and admiration. At least he had mine.
I do not hold on to any expectations or desires. This is my last act of good will and gratitude and my only hope is that they experience some amount of joy together as they rummage through the meanderings of my silly little heart. I mean, the reality is they seem to do this enough already… now they can compete with each other, trying to be the first to say “I told you so!!!”.
In the end this will not be a story of a tortuous un-affair between a washed out regrettably aging man and a lonely mediocre trophy wife but a short chapter in a beautiful, decades-spanning adventure saga of two unlikely friends.
“I have no duty to be anyone’s Friend and no man in the world has a duty to be mine. No claims, no shadow of necessity. Friendship is unnecessary, like philosophy, like art, like the universe itself (for God did not need to create). It has no survival value; rather it is one of those things which give value to survival.” -CS Lewis
@SJ,
“I do not hold on to any expectations or desires. This is my last act of good will and gratitude and my only hope is that they experience some amount of joy together as they rummage through the meanderings of my silly little heart…”
I think you’ve handled your LE, LO and colleague/friends beautifully, in such a creative, positive way to appreciate their meaningful, beneficial interactions with you. They will, in return naturally, appreciate and remember your big, grateful heart…
I hope joy of writing and living will come back to you soon.
SJ, hi
I’m so sad you had to part from your job and the closeness to LO. Yours is a beautiful story of unconditional love for another human being, even in his deteriorating mind stage. You
left there the fragrance of a soul that really can live without pretending. I’m sure they’ll miss you a lot!
I leave you with this comforting words, as I know the sorrow is great and inexplicable. Only God can console us in those lonely moments.
“May the Father of all mercies and God of all comfort , who comfort us in all tribulations, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.”
2 Corinthians 1:3-4
I sincerely wish you peace of mind, courage to continue your purposeful living and sharing your love with our fellow beings.
SJ
I tried really hard to find LO the perfect going away card when she told me that she was leaving the job. I had two weeks to find one when she called to tell me she was leaving. I finally found one. I found it on amazon. It was the perfect card to give to her as it was platonic (she was seeing someone by then) and friendly. And it expressed just how I felt about her. It said “You’re an awesome lady keep that $hit up”. She said she didn’t know what to say. I told her “Be a pineapple; stand tall and wear a crown.” That was some of our last words together. She doubted herself too much and I wanted her to know she was a very accomplished woman and she should be proud of her accomplishments and her life. Many women will never go through what she did and come out of it so positively as she did.
I get what you are saying.
Beeches
David St. John 1949 –
The forest is its own thanksgiving
Walking a mile or so from the road
Past the lake & ancient post office
I skim the long bodies of the beech trees
The elegant ascension of their slender trunks
A kind of gorgeous illusory play
Of white bars against the dark ochre matting
Of the earth below
Peace is where you find it
As here the last secret of the dawn air mixes
With a nostalgia so perfumed by misery
Only the rhythm of the walk itself
Carries me beyond the past
To say I miss you is to say almost nothing
To say the forest is the sanctuary of ghosts
Is only the first step of my own giving way—
Not the giving up—just the old giving thanks
I can feel your sadness here SJ. I am sorry you hurt. I’ve spent many days myself pouring my heart on to paper, in the form of poetry to LO. They are recollections of every moment of passing by her, smelling her, admiring her and every time our eyes met.
This Woman will probably never know or be able to fathom the effect she had on me. How just saying her name now still brings me to tears. She has been and will always be, a very important person to me.
Like your LO, she is worthy of love from someone special and if that never happens, at least she had mine.
Hi MJ,
I haven’t forgotten about you. I feel your pain and have thought of your lonely ordeal with limerence. Not a ray of hope in sight…?
How’s it going with your new friend? Your father, how’s he doing?
Courage and strength. Hugs.
Hi Bewitched and IMHO. I am sorry to hear that you were feeling low couple of days back, hope you are feeling better now. For me, things have been on the up side, after some lows couple of weeks back, hope I can maintain this.
For those who love poetry and are sad today.
“19 Famous sad love poems”
Site: Familyfriendpoems.com
There’s a wealth of poetry on this site, such as: Heartbreak poems, I miss you poems, Confused love poems, Cheating poems, Christmas poems.
Enjoy your reading. Have a wonderful weekend.
These Poems
June Jordan 1936 –2002
These poems
they are things that I do
in the dark
reaching for you
whoever you are
and
are you ready?
These words
they are stones in the water
running away
These skeletal lines
they are desperate arms for my longing and love.
I am a stranger
learning to worship the strangers
around me
whoever you are
whoever I may become.
“Peace is where you find it.” I like that line! Thank you, everyone, for your encouraging words. I’m going to keep coming here for strength. I read the Loneliness on NC article and it was spot on. I have a number of events coming up at which LO will likely be present. So I’ll need to be tough,, and steer myself far, far away.
My car share moment happened this week. This is an 18-month limerence episode. Both LO and myself married. We’ve been giving each other long intense gazes; he’s more or less admitted that he only comes in my department to see “us”. Yesterday he came in and made a throwaway comment about “oh no I couldn’t do that – I have seen how big her husband is” (when my colleague joked about looking at my butt) and for some reason it poured cold water all over my little fantasies of an affair.
Today he came in and I said hello but didn’t make eye contact at all; this seemed to throw him in a panic and he started coming in and out over and over to try and make contact and I more or less blanked him which I could tel was making him panic. I left my colleagues to interact with him:
I know it needs to be done and over with but I’m addicted as I’m now high that he was panicking. But I think he is happy with the long gazes and jokes. Maybe I am ego fodder but he just seems to get so emotionally fraught/distracted and panicky when I give him minimal attention that I’m thinking maybe he feels something for me too.
I love the highs – they give me energy and hope – the lows make me feel terrible, like my heart is breaking and I feel so empty: I’m scared to let this go. When he went LC once for nearly a month, I felt so distraught. I need to stop it before he stops it as I don’t want to be the one who is in pain; but equally I’m scared of flatness, boredom, lack of passion, romance, highs etc, feels like a no-win situation,
Ah yes, the LO who panics when we withdraw their supply. Maybe we should start reframing mutual limerence as codependent addiction of two needy people who use each other as ego fodder.
(I have myself firmly in mind when I wrote the above, not attacking anyone else at all. But I am so tired of me and how I am a user …)
Yes Carrie, two empty bottomless containers that need more and more of their drug to fill the void. Not getting drawn back in this time. I have had enough of the soul crushing lows and feelings blandness for my perfectly lovely life (if I wasn’t a romance high addict).
Is this happening to you Carrie?
Yes. Your post pretty much covered it. Highs when the supply is there, low at withdrawal levels when not.
I think it is harder actually when it is “mutual” – we see the panic and we think they must really care – and they do, sort of. Not care as in, I care about you as a person, but a I care about me not getting my fix if you go away.
Now that rings a bell with me.
I don’t know for sure if my LO is/was as limerent as me („was“ because I‘m coming out of it), but he needed something out of our bit-more-than-friendship for sure. He needed the fix of a pretty woman reassuring him that he‘s awesome in a troubled period of his life. I cannot blame him for that, as I also needed a fix of some sort. We were both addicted, as you describe it.
But it compromised our friendship. Limerence is so destructive for a friendship.
I‘m in the end-phase of limerence where I‘m in the danger of seeing everything in a negative light, including LO, wanting to get away from all this business.
It’s not fair on him, actually, and I get a glimpse of how good it would be if limerence never happened and I could just be a trustworthy friend to him now.
But I have to take care of myself and not get too close again.
And since I think we were both limerent, it’s the best for us both to withdraw a bit.
I‘m there for him if he really needs it, but I won’t give him the fix of daily texts anymore, for example.
Mila, I am at the same stage of realization as you. Bit-more-than-friendship describes it well. I definitely gave him reassurance of his worthiness; in turn he validated me. We were at a time of our lives when we were more vulnerable than usual. I actually think the entire episode served a purpose, it’s just that the price in tears and suffering was quite steep. We are both stronger now and in a better place, and can try to detach without triggering that utter panic that made us cling to each other (figuratively not literally). It’s still hard, but it is now possible. Viva la purpose!
Hi Carrie,
for a while I also thought that my limerences were created by certain situations in my life, but in hindsight I have to say that I was always prone to get little crushes in interesting men here and there, they never went as far as limerence (I don’t count the limerence for my SO since this ended in love).
While the first really bad LE started in a time where I was more vulnerable and distanced from my SO, I think I made a habit of getting some feelings of being alive, attractive and excitement out of limerence, and that’s why I had a second and now third LE. The second got my out of the first, and the third started for a long term friend when he left my workplace.
There’s always a reason, but the main reason is somewhere in my personality.
This time is the first time a LE ends without a next one on the horizon and I‘m determined to not let it happen again. This time I just have to get through the bleak feeling and a feeling of loss without seeking for the next fix.
But, on a more positive note, how good for you, Carrie, and me, that we managed to realize stuff and are in a much better place!
*“the second LE got me out of my first“
Hi Mila
Quote “ He needed the fix of a pretty woman reassuring him that he‘s awesome in a troubled period of his life. I cannot blame him for that, as I also needed a fix of some sort”
Yes I relate to this. My LO has had a lot of personal issues over the last 18 months, as have I. We don’t have a texting relationship, but we have a flirtationship in the office – a secret dalliance of smiles, innocent touches, long mutual gazes and a general giddy nervousness around each other, which I think gives us both a thrill and an escape from the grind of boring day to day life.
The problem is, in my case, I sort of want more. I say I want more, but I don’t actually want to cheat on my SO – more that I want verbal confirmation of LOs feelings as the knowledge he might find me attractive is not enough for me now.
I’m not sure, but I think LO is happy with the status quo. Sometimes I think I am too, but when I get to work and realise he is not in due to annual leave, I start feeling empty, almost heartbroken that I am nothing in his life.
I do feel less preoccupied with him this weekend and able to focus on other things; but I’m worried what work will bring next week: will he avoid me? Will he look at me the same way? Where the hell will all of this end up? Will I just end up heartbroken when the attention stops? Should I be the one to stop it now so it’s him and not me that’s affected the most by its end. So many questions……..
Then sometimes I wonder if I’m imagining the whole thing lol
„The problem is, in my case, I sort of want more. I say I want more, but I don’t actually want to cheat on my SO – more that I want verbal confirmation of LOs feelings as the knowledge he might find me attractive is not enough for me now.
I’m not sure, but I think LO is happy with the status quo.“
This was me for the whole last year, I guess. He seemed to be content with the high-frequency texting and the occasional frisson of a kissing emoji or glances, hugs etc, but never more, never leaving the grey zone and really talking about it. I talked about my feelings from time to time, not really disclosing but kind of, and never got a satisfying response back. Only one time, not long ago, he surprised me with a really committed text. Funnily enough, after this text my limerence began its long way down. Maybe my subconscious self finally got what it wanted and can now let go?
Not immediately, but with the help of him leaving the country for a while and then me going on a trip I managed to get enough distance.
I feel quite selfish in my limerence and also in my fight to get rid of it (first I pressure him for committing or saying something nice etc, then when he delivers I pull back? But it’s not quite like that, when I really think about it. If we would have met more often after this text, it would have been dangerous and it would have developed differently, but he left the next day for weeks. It’s more that time and distance did their thing.)
But even if it looks selfish, what can I do? It‘s no good for either of us to stay in this grey zone.
Maybe you should ask yourself, what exactly do you wish for? And what do you think would happen next? Would it really be enough to hear him say that he cares for you in a special way? Something would follow, you wouldn’t just part ways suddenly after that, no? Play it out in your mind until the last consequence and future. It’s your workplace and married colleague, after all. There are probably a lot of people who see you bantering and would notice everything that happens between you. What if something seeps through to your or his SO? Etc.
Don’t know if that helps. But your reaction to his remark shows that you built a little limerent world in your mind and something that doesn’t fit into this bubble shakes you. So maybe try to see the whole reality? God knows I‘m quite bad at that, but I‘ve hope that you are better and cleverer than me!
„ Then sometimes I wonder if I’m imagining the whole thing lol“
Me too:)
That’s really interesting Mila, what did his text say?
“Maybe you should ask yourself, what exactly do you wish for? And what do you think would happen next? Would it really be enough to hear him say that he cares for you in a special way? Something would follow, you wouldn’t just part ways suddenly after that, no?”
This is the part that I have tried to reconcile and I can’t because all the different parts of me want different things (as I have discovered in my therapy sessions). I say that disclosure of feelings would be enough, but I’m sure it wouldn’t – my brain would want a bigger dose of something from him for a hit, I’m sure.
Yes, when he mentioned the part about my SO it immediately made my heart drop to my stomach. Here was me in my limerent bubble, imagining us both wanting/craving an affair with the other, but when he mentioned my husband, it’s like he doesn’t feel the same intensity somehow and is more realistic than me.
What’s really weird is that sometimes when I get up close to him or I am pretty sure of reciprocation, I’m less attracted and notice things I find icky (e.g. for some reason I don’t like his hairline at the nape of his neck) – sometimes, his eyes don’t look at handsome up close but older than what I see in my rivière. This is very grounding for me as I think to myself, well what if you went ahead and got physical with him and then found something icky – it would be too late then and a lot of damage would have been done for someone your not that enamoured with!
Following on from the above, this is where I think “nah, I’m happy to keep this thing as it is – a thrill but with a safety harness” but then he won’t turn in for work or he’ll smell particularly alluring or some other variable and I am back to feeling a full on drug-like craving to being physically embraced by him and having him telling me he is hopelessly infatuated with me!!!
I have a similar schizophrenic experience of wanting different things on different days:
– to be with LO fully and damn the consequences
– to be with LO in some sort of situation where the other parts of lives are not affected
– to be lovers but I imagine I can keep my emotions out of it (deluded)
– to be rid of LO – I wish he’d find himself someone else or something
– that he never finds anyone, because it proves he’s pining for me
– to be best friends
– etc.
At the start of limerence I could only desire him. At this stage of limerence, I still get episodes of desire, but if I manage to ride them out, I can achieve a level of peace.
Hi Jade,
„What’s really weird is that sometimes when I get up close to him or I am pretty sure of reciprocation, I’m less attracted and notice things I find icky“
I can relate to this as well in my current LE and a bit in the LE before that. In my first LE the main attraction was physical, so no doubts there.
But my current LO also has features I don’t find that attractive. Through the haze of limerence I could still see that but it didn’t count somehow.
I think it proves that limerence has very little to do with the LO and very much with an inner need of oneself that wants fulfilling and attaches itself to LO as the best available object. Everything that doesn’t fit the fantasy (physical features, remarks) gets kicked out of the bubble.
„but when he mentioned my husband, it’s like he doesn’t feel the same intensity somehow and is more realistic than me.“
I guess that really is the case. He might be limerent or just enjoy the frisson, or have a normal crush, but it’s not good to just presume he feels the same as you, as he is a different person and will definitely feel everything in a different way.
It’s really interesting how we can perceive and analyze ourselves – I mean you notice all the signs that this is an illusion of some sorts and could end badly, as I did/do- but still don’t stop pursuing the limerent dream.
This all sounds very familiar. I’m going through the same thing!
What’s your situation SL?
I try to keep it vague–This site is too open to the public for my taste. But I know LO from church and there have been sparks between us since I first met him almost 20 years ago. But a year ago he gave me a hug and I went full-on limerent. What was once a manageable crush has turned into a series of highs and lows. Almost certain it’s mutual but I’m always doubting my own impressions and analyzing interactions to death. Our texting is very light and we don’t see each other outside of church. Which is meant to keep up some boundaries but occasionally makes me think it’s all in my head.
Sometimes I think limerence is the opposite of resentment. The second is like person addiction drove by hate, and limerence by person addiction with romantic and obsessive vibes. I could be wrong, but this helps me to internalize it and see it like two wrong states of mind (my english is not the best, sorry).
And uncertainty is at the intersection where you cannot disclose either way, not to disclose with your LO or with your RO (resentment object). So everything feels like a limbo, with rumination, intrusive thoughts and real action is blocked.
I think personally that I tend to like uncertainty because I grew up in an unstable environment, so it feels familiar to me to be in perpetual tension with people, but at the long run this is destroying my self-esteem and self-worth, no one can trust me to be in a decent relationship. Now, I’am aware of that. Not sure how to enjoy stability and commitment, I get bored… 😞
@Maya,
You brought up some interesting topics. Would you like to talk about them?
You mentioned that you are a hazardous LO. Do you also have a tendency toward limerence, or are you only commenting on being the LO yourself? Why are you hazardous?
Why does nobody trust you to be in a relationship?
I know what you mean about stability and commitment being “boring.” Yes, it can be. I like to think on the positive side that it is also peaceful and healthy.
A resentment object… that’s an interesting concept. I am pretty sure my limerent objects automatically become resentment objects in the painful, downward slope of limerence… but once the cycle is over due to no contact, both perceptions go away.
I have so many questions! Feel free to respond, or not. No pressure; just curious 💙
@Limerent nurse
Thanks for your questions and interest! 🙏
I had LOs before and right now I am the LO for my boss… this blog is showing me the way on how to stop my wrong behavior towards him.
I am hazardous simple because of my selfishness, I would really love and imaging to be friends, but now I see that is imposible.
“Nobody can trust me” might sound dramatic, but that is my sense. I just had a recent long relationship and everything was fine until I get bored (10 years of stability). So, my limerent tendencies appeared and destroyed the safe relationship we’ve built together.
I would like to reach the same view as you about commitment as something positive and healthy.
“A resentment object… that’s an interesting concept. I am pretty sure my limerent objects automatically become resentment objects in the painful, downward slope of limerence… but once the cycle is over due to no contact, both perceptions go away.” Maybe resentment helped you as a way out strategy, like going NC.
I also think resentment towards LOs is unfair to them when they don’t even hace a clue of their effect in us, they just exist and we read through their actions something that isn’t true, wdyt?
🙂
@Maya,
That’s interesting that your limerent tendencies showed up after 10 years of stability. Is that what caused it to be over? What’s your story, if you feel like talking about it?
When I said that the limerent objects become resentment objects, I meant I resented the limerent experience once it went sour — which it always does for me — but they never knew it. I didn’t show any resentment toward them. It was all inner turmoil. Now I know it’s just part of my personal limerence cycle. And it’s that cycle I am trying to always avoid with any new, glimmery boy 💙
I should also add my experiences were reciprocated, whether they were limerent or not I don’t know… I didn’t have the knowledge at the time, or I would’ve asked them! 🫠
@Maya
I am boss to my LO. Your perspective interests me, the fact that you desire a friendship with him? Why do you desire this friendship, what is your emotional connection to him? And what does friendship look like to you with your boss? Do you try to initiate friendship interactions with him and he pulls away?
My LO does not pursue friendship with me. She won’t shy away from me if I pursue with her, but she does very little relational initiation with me. I pretty much think she is indifferent to me.
But you have me thinking how I would respond if she made it known she desired a friendship with me and put some effort into friendship with me. Quite honestly, I might like that if LO felt that way.
@Speedwagon
At the beginning our working relationship was not that of boss and employee. We were work colleagues, and we started by talking a lot, which led to building a very strong bond with flirtatious vibes. But then things changed, he was promoted and he started to set limits with me, however at times he was very friendly like before. His behavior towards me is confusing, but I think deep down he is protecting himself, which I respect.
Sometimes I think that if he told me what he feels, it would release a lot of stress or discomfort and the feelings would would become at their right dimension, it’s like a pressure cooker. I may be wrong.
I am of the idea that relationships do not have to be black and white, if he accepted my friendship even though I am his LO, it would obviously require a lot of effort on his part to not get romantic ideas in his mind, at least we could see a way to reciprocate the need to be connected in some level.
The possibilities I see are: that I stop insisting on friendship for his sake and quit my job, or that he opens up to me and we can have a friendship relationship different from the traditional one based on the truth of both. I see the light that he has as a person and I would like him to be aware of that without thinking is flirting.
I don’t know if all this helps to answer your questions 🙂
Interesting. A few thoughts…
First, how do you know you are an LO? Perhaps once he became your boss he felt he needed to maintain a more professional only relationship and he is keeping you at a distance since you are a pursuer.
Second, If he is limerent I think there is a way to talk with him without making him disclose to you. Can’t you simply tell him you enjoy his friendship, notice you don’t talk as much anymore, and want friendship to continue and ask him if that is OK? It reveals your honest desire and it might allow him to reveal his motives on his terms. He might tell you his desire for friendship on a professional level has changed since becoming boss or he might say something more romantically revealing.
Uncertainty is the fuel of limerence and right now it seems to be one big cloud of uncertainty between you both. Maybe that uncertainty needs to be burst.
If it were me, I would want to know. It’s why I ultimately disclosed. The uncertainty was driving me crazy. You are giving him the chance to talk honestly on your initiation, not his, and I tend to think that is OK.
Just thinking out loud here. Perhaps I am all wrong on this.
I think he is obvious, even if he tries to hide it, besides intuition plays a big role in this. But you are right, I don’t have to assume anything.
I like your thinking, gonna try your nuanced way to approach him 🙂
Thank you Speedwagon!