How’s that for an arresting welcome to the LwL virtual coffeehouse?
David, author of the Wikipedia page on limerence, emailed me recently about a TikToker and psychiatrist named Dr Ahmed Hankir, who’s recently gone viral by describing limerence as a “tell-tale sign” that someone has Borderline Personality Disorder, and the “worst symptom” of the condition.
There were big splashes about it in Newsweek and the Daily Mail too.
It’s another case of using analogies to claim that limerence is actually a manifestation of a mental health condition—rather like last week’s post about stalking.
So, just in case you were worried that limerence might be a sign that you do have BPD, I thought it might be useful to explain why he’s wrong.
What is BPD?
Perhaps the most confusingly named of the personality disorders, Borderline Personality Disorder is characterised by intense fear of abandonment, mood instability, fragile self-identity, impulsive behaviour and turbulent relationships.
The archetypal symptom of BPD is known as “splitting”—a sudden emotional reversal of feeling about friends or romantic partners, from idealisation to devaluation.
From, “You’re my soulmate, my world, and I’ll love you forever” to “You’re evil, and I hate you.”
The American Psychiatric Association estimates that 2-5% of the general population have BPD.
Given that, why would Dr Hankir conclude that limerence is a symptom of BPD?
When non-limerents try to understand limerence
Dorothy Tennov made an insightful comment about the problems of understanding limerence in the preface to the second edition of her classic work Love and Limerence:
“People who have not experienced limerence are baffled by descriptions of it and are often resistant to the evidence that it exists. To such outside observers, limerence appears pathological.”
Dorothy Tennov
I’ve encountered the same problem. Trying to explain limerence to someone who has never experienced it results in a chain of reasoning that seems to go:
- That sounds like obsessive love
- Obsessive love is unhealthy
- Limerence is like OCD/stalking/bipolar disorder/BPD
Limerence has some overlapping symptoms with other conditions, and so outside observers trying to make sense of it might simply assume they have the same origin.
But it’s important to clearly state that any claim that limerence causes, or is caused by, another condition like BPD is not based on research or clinical evidence. We don’t have any data on it. There is no published research that tests these ideas directly.
The argument rests on a sort of false inference—A and B share symptoms, so they must be related.
It would be just as feasible to argue:
- Do you ever feel like you want to achieve more in your life?
- Do you feel that your efforts aren’t appreciated, or that people don’t understand you?
- Maybe you even feel that God has a plan for you, and you wish you could figure out what it is?
Watch out! You might have narcissistic personality disorder.
The “idealisation” symptom of BPD has some similarities to limerence, for sure (intense desire, feelings of special connection, exaggerating value and minimising flaws), but that’s pretty much the only thing they have in common.
Limerents don’t typically “split” and start to hate their limerent object with inverse passion. They might start mirroring their limerent objects mannerisms and opinions, but they don’t lose their self-identity. They might be anxious when it seems that their LO is not reciprocating, but they don’t have an emotional collapse over abandonment.
However, if half the population experience limerence, it’s inevitable that some people with borderline personality disorder will also develop limerence.
That such people then idealise their LO, become obsessed, and then cycle through the other symptoms of fractured self-identity, fear of abandonment, and splitting, is a predictable consequence of their pre-existing psychological vulnerabilities.
Limerence doesn’t happen because they have BPD, it happens and they have BPD.
The same principle applies to other conditions.
Hyperfixation on a LO does not mean a limerent has ADHD.
Obsessive thoughts does not mean a limerent has OCD.
The desperate desire to be close to their LO does not mean a limerent is a stalker-in-waiting.
Limerence, fundamentally, is a mental state. Lots of people can fall into it.
Some limerents will have other conditions that will colour the way they experience limerence, and which symptoms predominate, but it’s a mistake to assume that one causes the other.
Anyway, thanks for David for the head’s up, and over to the community to add some outraged comments in the thread below, before moving on to the important business of chat and gossip.
When I read Dr. Hankir’s article, I could actually see myself in the symptoms. To explain my entire behavior and emotional life, I’m always looking for reasons I can sum up in a single word. I wanted to show my therapist the article and Dr. Bellamy’s reply.
I don’t find Dr. Hankir’s conclusion convincing. If the illness—or whatever you want to call it—is related to traumatic childhood experiences, then in my opinion, psychoanalysis is more helpful than behavioral therapy.
One of us had better explain for the benefit of audiences outside the UK, that the Daily Mail is what most of us refer to as “gutter press”. Its articles are deliberately written to be sensationalist and cause disapproval and outrage: right-wing populist clickbait in newspaper form. It is not a serious news outlet. To be criticised by the Daily Mail is a badge of honour. I did click the link because I wanted to read the article, but regretfully because I don’t want to generate advertising revenue for it.
I didn’t know that, I am from Germany. Thanks for the information.
To Miss Cloud:
Thank you for that. I have heard of the Daily Mail, but I know nothing about it.
I am so glad I read this before I heard anything about a connection to BPD.
I am one of those people who convinces herself that I have the symptoms of every disease I hear about.
ND,
If you’re really worried that you’re a borderline, you probably aren’t.
Ask yourself:
How much havoc do I wreak in peoples’ lives?
Do I wreak havoc on purpose? (if no, you might be borderline; if yes, you might be a narcissist or sociopath. I don’t have much experience with histronics.)
Am I capable of regret and remorse?
There are nine diagnostic criteria for each personality disorder. You have to meet 5 of 9 to win a clinical diagnosis.
Cluster Bs of any variety tend to leave wreckage behind them. The really bad ones are like tornados going through a mobile home park.
To L.E.:
I’m not really worried. I am nothing like the description.
I am a conciliatory person who tries to repair discord.
I just seem to imagine that I have the symptoms of any disease I read about.
ND,
You sound like my wife.
When Women’s Word magazine was $1.49, she’d buy them at the grocery store every week. Every issue had a “disease of the week” article. She was sure she had every one.
To L.E.:
That’s me. Disease of the Week.
Thanks for the shoutout.
There are actually five articles about this guy now, claiming limerence is a symptom of BPD, and he’s simply a guy on TikTok making stuff up.
I think the comment filter won’t let me post that many links, so the journalists who wrote these articles are:
– Lucy Notarantonio (Newsweek.com)
– Divya Verma (Inquisitr.com)
– Emily Lefroy (DailyMail.com)
– Susan LaMarca (DailyDot.com)
– Jonathan Pierce (Chronik.fr)
I monitor stuff like this as part of maintaining the Wikipedia article, but fortunately these are not sources Wikipedia would consider reliable. However, a movement like this is the first step of laundering the information into more reliable sources by a careless journalist or editor who does not notice these articles are misinformation.
The media flurry around Albert Wakin in the 2010s also used a similar process, and nobody noticed those early sources (blogs and so on) were unreliable until I started checking them when I started rewriting the Wikipedia article in 2024. My discoveries about this are documented on the Wikipedia talk page.
Some of these new articles about BPD also refer to Ahmed Hankir as an “expert”, but obviously he’s not.
It’s almost as many articles as there are about Tom Bellamy, which is worrying, but the articles about Tom tend to be in more reputable outlets.
Tom is the only person I would consider an expert on limerence, or leading expert, on what it is and how it works, especially for what people in internet communities are talking about.
Thank you for your thorough and thoughtful research. In a world of social media misinformation and sloppy journalism, it’s reassuring see people gathering and sharing information in a responsible fashion.
A sixth article has been written, by Britt Jones (Tyla.com).
Yeah, I’ve actually known somebody with BPD. She had a family history of it. Broke off relations with her because she was mean to me; she still watches me online 15 years later. I’m not like her. 😛
Great overview of a great topic, Dr. L.
I recently read David’s updated Wikipedia entry on limerence. There he notes that (a) Tennov herself observes that even distressing limerence isn’t pathological and (b) Fisher may have viewed romantic love as a positive addiction when reciprocated and as a negative addiction when unreciprocated. Or, at least, that was my understanding of the article… An addiction that’s positive – now there’s an intriguing concept.
I know certain readers at LwL love to bounce up and down, loudly insisting limerence isn’t pathological. A certain female fan of Fenna’s YT channel likes to do the same, and I think we all know who the lady in question is, because she enjoys arguing with Fenna as much as she enjoys arguing with everyone else. And, well, according to all reputable research on the subject, they’re/she’s … right. Limerence in itself constitutes neither a mental illness nor a character defect.
Nonetheless, limerence still leads to heated disagreements, fallings-out between friends, guilt, shame, endless moralising, etc. Why? Well, as Tennov notes, non-limerents really have a hard time wrapping their heads around something they haven’t experienced firsthand. Fair enough. And limerents just … get bored of other limerents droning on about their LOs/LEs. (I’m guessing. I mean, I wouldn’t know. I’ve never droned on about any LOs/LEs, have I?) 🤣
From what I’ve seen, even Lucy Bain never comes out and directly says limerence is a pathology. What Bain says is actually something far more subtle. What Bain says is that it may be helpful for some people – kind of as a little psychological trick – to think of limerence as if it were a pathology when trying to recover. However, she also compares conquering limerence to overcoming sugar addiction. So, for Bain, pathology is an analogy and not a label/category. What Bain DOES seem to acknowledge, however, is that limerence is a behavioural addiction.
I was listening to a song by Sugababes called “Too Lost in You”, which could be interpreted as being about limerence. I also thought that some well-meaning folk might conclude the song is a rather toxic anthem to limerence and a song that may enable bad behaviour. Here are some lyrics:
I’m going crazy in love for you baby
(I can’t eat and I can’t sleep)
I’m going down like a stone in the sea
Yeah, no one can rescue me
I must say, I like the maritime imagery. Going down “like a stone in the sea”, huh? Certainly beats a lot of the tired imagery found in many contemporary pop confections.
I also heard this other wonderful song called “Butterfly” by Marina. (Yes, Marina of Marina and the Diamonds fame). Here are some lyrics, which I think are absolutely heavenly, especially when delivered in Marina’s heavenly voice:
To become a butterfly
Parts of me had to die
Spread my wings in the golden light
And I fly
Marina’s song about being a butterfly is very moving to me because, while she is presumably singing about the end of a relationship with a man who didn’t appreciate her, the butterfly motif in my mind is closely linked to themes of rebirth accompanying the fading of a particular limerent episode.
Dr. L, I think I may have said something incorrect yesterday. Permit me to set the record straight here. I thought your “Popular Videos” list contained fifteen videos, because the way YT displays said list deceives the eye into seeing three groups of five. Turns out the “Popular Videos” list only contains twelve videos. This means your latest video – “Don’t Fight It” – it actually doing better than I thought. In fact, in just 24 hours, it’s moved from Number Eleven spot to Number Nine spot.
If “7 Signs of Limerence” can be considered a juggernaut video (highest number of views in the shortest period of time), “Don’t Fight It” may well follow suit. You may soon be dealing with two juggernauts on your hands. I don’t know what’s going on. Maybe the algorithm on YT has finally kicked in? Maybe some LwLers are belatedly tuning in? Or maybe you just make great stuff that people in general enjoy watching? I’ve heard you do great facial expressions, by the way. I was going to tell you not to be afraid to break out the sock puppets if you ever get desperate, or even the finger puppets, but I think that would be cheeky. 🙂
New favourite YT comment someone left you: “Aw yiss.”
Special thanks to David for writing and rewriting the Wikipedia entry on limerence. Special thanks to David for all other work done pertaining to limerence. Special thanks to Dr. L for being so committed to putting out quality content regarding limerence online – quality content that will hopefully combat some of the most damaging misconceptions about limerence that currently proliferate. Special thanks to Sugababes and Marina for being fabulous.
I think your guess that the algorithm on YT has finally kicked in, is probably right. I am new to LwL and it’s because I come here via YT, which brought me straight to Dr L’s channel.
I appreciate this, thank you.
When I started researching this, I wanted to understand all the possible viewpoints, so I cast as wide a net as possible initially, reading all kinds of different things about love instead of just looking for sources on limerence specifically.
Something that I think people overlook is that many forms of “romantic love” seem unhealthy when compared to an ideal, not just limerence.
I’ve been working on rewriting a different article which has some definitions of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance
Westerners have a positive appraisal of the “romantic love” concept, but the cultural ideas actually seem to cause some level of dissatisfaction. People have very high expectations for love, which real relationships rarely seem to live up to. This even goes for nonlimerents as well, actually. There’s a study by de Munck & Kronenfield (2016) which has a few case studies demonstrating this.
I even also see crushes as kind of pernicious now, because they’re really a “gateway drug” to limerence. I think young people should be taught to avoid crushes instead of chasing after them, and thereby exposing themselves to the situations that contribute to limerence developing.
I find that people tend to compare limerence to a cultural idea of how they think “falling in love” ought to work, rather than trying to understand how it works in reality.
Culturally, people have a belief system that’s kind of like the following:
– There’s a person out there that you’re “supposed” to be in a relationship with (your “soul mate” or “the one”).
– The more a person is the “right” partner for you, the more intensely “in love” you would be with that person (i.e. “more is better”).
– You would fall most intensely in love with “the one” when you met them, so falling in love is “supposed” to tell you who the one is.
– Also, an initial attraction (“glimmer”) is “supposed” to tell you who you will fall in love with, so you should pursue a relationship with someone you are initially attracted to.
– Therefore, if you fell intensely in love with the “wrong” person and it went bad, that must be wrong or even unusual.
Beliefs like this are called “romantic idealism” or “romanticism”, but there’s not much scientific evidence (if any) to support the idea that falling in love is really supposed to work that way in reality.
If you believe the romantic idealist version of how falling in love works, then limerence seems very pathological by comparison. Dorothy Tennov kind of wanted to show people how it worked in reality, and I would say that the scientific research on romantic love is actually consistent with her idea. That is, while the explicit details of limerence theory are still yet (mostly) untested, the research does not (yet) disprove her ideas either.
“even Lucy Bain never comes out and directly says limerence is a pathology. What Bain says is actually something far more subtle. What Bain says is that it may be helpful for some people – kind of as a little psychological trick – to think of limerence as if it were a pathology when trying to recover.”
From memory, Bain likened limerence to OCD, which she also researches.
Limerence as a form of addiction is pathological enough!
This is supposed to be the Coffeehouse, so I guess I will change the subject and talk about something else.
I was mulling over today how much I projected onto LO the IDEA of what I wanted him to be, rather than who he is. He’s really nothing like the person I imagined him to be. The good news for me is that he is not particularly personable, which helps me with my limerence problem in the long run.
I have discovered that white-knuckle No Contact does not work for me. What works better is limited exposure to him, while gradually being exposed to a multitude of unpleasant behaviors.
I have had the opportunity to observe and interact with him for about three years now, and I am finding less and less to be impressed with. The fact that he put his aesthetic desires ahead of his elderly mother’s welfare made a big impression on me.
I do feel I am making good progress. It’s never quite fast enough for me, but at least it’s moving in the right direction.
I suppose my question is, does seeing his faults help beat the limerence? Or is the limerence an unbearable fascination with the aspects you’re attracted to, without reference to the bits you dislike? It would be interesting to explore that, just in case your recovery is relying on a false premise. This is a genuine question, not meant to undo the good progress you’ve already made.
Check out:https://livingwithlimerence.com/how-to-get-rid-of-limerence/
It’s an LwL classic.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/case-study-i-dont-want-to-devalue-my-limerent-object/
The general consensus is devaluating your LO can help you beat limerence in the short term. Devaluation can buy you time to determine and implement long term strategies. Devaluation is like saying “Drugs (i.e., your LO) are bad and staying away from them, if you can. But, you’re still an addict.
To Limerent Emeritus:
Yes, still an addict, but perhaps not as tempted to partake.
Thank you for reminding me about that first article. I have read it before, but it’s well worth a re-read.
Part of it hasn’t worked with me–I disclosed to LO right up front and he said he was fine with it, and we could still be friends. So no nuclear meltdown.
I will say that his history of less-than-desirable behavior is the thing that’s wearing me down best. As an example, I have recently asked him for two tiny favors that he could easily fulfill, but yet he does nothing. That has an effect, and continues to have an effect, as time passes.
And of course, you may recall that he has an oil painting of mine which I gave him for repair in March of 2023.
It’s hard to be limerent for someone who procrastinates like that. I can see that I am a very low priority and it takes a toll.
To Miss Cloud:
Oh, seeing his faults definitely helps beat the limerence. I have been blown away at some of the bonehead things he has said and done. Each time he says or does something inexplicable, the limerence fades a bit.
I am still fascinated with him. I have told him he is the most interesting man in the world, and I mean it. I am still absolutely enamored of his house, which will end as soon as he sells it and moves.
Overall, though, I am satisfied with my progress. I read somewhere that three years is about average? I think I am right in the ballpark.
Thank you for asking about me.
Glad to hear it. Keep up the good work.
I’m way past three years, sadly, but it’s only been a few months since I discovered Dr L’s work, and I feel as though that reset the clock.
To Miss Cloud:
Everyone has their own timetable.
If LO were nicer to me, I would be having a much harder time.
It’s harder to be limerent for a Grinch than for a kindly person.
My strategy has to be very different, because my LO is a nice, normal person, and my husband and I are both friends with him and his wife. We all have plenty in common and no sources of tension. For me it’s more about understanding the unhappiness which led me to developing a crush on another man in addition to being in love with my husband. The combination of circumstances is no longer present, and the crush is really just a habit that I am slowly shaking off. It’s amazing how sticky it is, though.
To Miss Cloud:
If I remember correctly, your family and his family are all friendly and involved in activities together, yes?
Your situation is definitely more complicated than mine.
Yes, that’s right. It would be impossible to avoid him without arousing suspicion. Neither do I want to avoid him, except that I feel I ought to. This is the problem! Sometimes I can go for a few weeks without happening to see him, but it’s largely out of my control.
Cloud,
Your LE and mine sound similar in some ways. There is also nothing much to demonise about my LO. Every time I have ever tried, she sabotages it with kindness. Avoidance would also arouse suspicion, and her presence in my life happens more days than not by necessity. So I have to work with similar strategies to you, both for understanding why I’m drawn in, and for day to day management.
One of the most helpful strategies I find is gathering evidence that “this situation is not, and never was, as special to her as it is to my brain”. I have also been able to stop seeing the positive evidence I get as representing anything more than “this is a nice pleasant friendship”. Because that is what it is, and no amount of kidding myself – in either direction – is really going to change that.
I can feel from your posts that you’ve moved forward, even if there are occasional backslides. I didn’t know it had been going on as long as you recently said. Mine is about 6 months less.
Miss Norma, I can also hear progress in your posts lately 🙂 We all have to find a way that works for us.
To LaR:
If LO sabotaged me with kindness, I’d never get over my limerence.
As painful as his behavior is, it’s going to be the thing that ends up saving me.
Impossible to stay enamored of someone who acts the way he does.
Norma,
Yes, I can see how his more unkind sides are what keep it at bay for you, and that by noticing them more, that’s how you can shift it. I do always think, though, that the question of “will (s)he be kind or not today?” creates that kind of slot machine uncertainty that is fertile ground for limerence.
My LO does have her more abrasive side (a natural part of her personality) and occasionally I get pockets of that directed at me. It can then go into the evidence bank for “I’m not so special”. As I said to Cloud, I always want to collect evidence like that to help me move on. But once I’ve taken care to assemble some of it, the ‘sabotage with kindness’ often occurs! See – I too play the 🎰
*But* – that is in no way meant to trivialise some of the bad treatment your LO dishes out to you. For what my opinion’s worth, you are right to focus on that and hold onto it if you want the LE to end.
I like a good stat, so please try this one for size if you feel comfortable to … From the peak, if we call that 100%, then to what % would you say your limerence for him has reduced now?
(I think this is a good question for any limerent to answer 🤔)
LaR
I want to personally thank you for being here for Miss Norma. Ya’ll seem to have a good rapport and a commonality in your limerence. Thank you for you (and others) being there for her. Her LO makes me red hot Hulk anger at the way she treats my Dear Norma. I’ve gotten to where I will scan her posts and if I see an L or an O on the post, I’m out.
Miss Norma if you read this I’m looking forward to another dance with you. I like this song that my wife introduced me too. But it’s ok to wear your loose fitting pants.
Conway Twitty — Tight Fittin Jeans
https://youtu.be/xs1kwVeKcRg?si=nki40l5cD_2SVwNq
To LaR:
Such a great question! I think it has decreased about 75%.
Give or take a little.
LO took me out for my birthday last month and was nice to me. But it didn’t cause me to backslide the way I might have previously. Instead, I found myself thinking, “Well, you CAN be nice when you want to. Too bad you don’t want to most of the time.”
To Adam:
Love the song. Would love to dance with you.
No idea if there is a tiger inside my baggy old lady pants.
I don’t know much about BPD, but I feel like the term gets thrown around a lot like it seems in recent times, autism, narcissism, or OCD is. “Oh you must have OCD your house is so clean.” “Oh you have problems keeping attention on one thing, you must be autistic.”
How is everyone riddled with these mental disorders, when, at least in the case of BPD, only 2-5% of the general population experience it? I was married to my wife for almost 10 years before she was properly diagnosed by a professional and given the right medicine for her bi-polar. And that was because she committed herself voluntarily. Like Dr. L said, it’s probably just being human than trying to label yourself with something that isn’t more than likely there.
Outside of mild OCD, or it’s just my personality that I like things clean, neat and organized, I have never been diagnosed or suffered a mental illness.
I also think Dr L made a good point about non-limerents trying to understand limerence. To understand it, they need to label it, or associate it with something they can “blame” it for. Or call it an emotional affair or an obsession, or stalking. I think that’s why Dr L is always on point so well. He was blessed with mutual limerence. But also suffered a one-sided limerent episode.
Also, no one should ever listen to anyone with any kind of seriousness on tick tok. 🙂 Or twitter, even, for that matter.
I suffered so much inwardly in the past when they started calling this “stalking.” I fought back against the label for harmless people. It’s validating to finally see this conversation.
To Serial:
Tell me about it. I was trying to explain my limerence to a girlfriend who doesn’t understand, and the first thing she came up with was “stalker.”
OMG. I am so NOT. I posted on another thread that I just joined Instagram to watch a video that somebody sent me, because I have no interest otherwise. LO’s picture popped up unexpectedly as a suggested person to follow and I was startled. The photo looked nothing like the person I know, and I was put off. I immediately cancelled my Instagram account after watching my friend’s video. The idea of following LO on Instagram nauseates me.
Miss Marcia,
The other coffee house is closed, so moving our chat here.
“There’s no way a guy who looks like that and is available is going to be exclusive with a married woman.”
At beginning, she just intended a casual fling, but the more she met him up, the more she craved an exclusive affair without her fully awareness. LE took place without her knowing what it was, of course.
“You couldn’t discuss it with her? After all this time?”
COO is not a culture of “talking a talk”, like chatty Americans 🙄. It’s a getting-things done, doer’s culture. Moreover, Mom is not the person who would admit any mistakes, even her cooking that my dog refused to eat once. For half an hour, she’d give you reasons why her meal of that day was so bad. What’s the point to talk about her immoral affairs that made both my Dad and me “to pay for” in one way or another❓It’s in her past, nothing she says or does now would make a slight dent in my life.
“I’m certainly not the only person who’s looking for something beyond the every day. About every damn poster on here is. 🙂”
My lady, please speak for yourself. 😀 I’m NOT one of your “damn posters”. I was in deep depression and mourning when LE7 took place. When I came here, I was looking for information. Now, LE and my Longing are gone, I’m more determined to make my everyday more meaningful and fulfilling — to look at “the old” with new mental eyes/lens; to make something new out of routines — Esther Parel.
The type of stimulus you’ve been “raving” about does not interest me one bit. In the past, I never actively searched for it, all Glimmers took place in the midst of my living, unhappily or joyfully. As I said before, I was fully prepared to live alone until my death. But if a romance and possible lasting connection come along my “odd” path unexpectedly, I will certainly welcome it. I still have an ability to tango….
[“The pop idea of “madly in love” is so narrow and cannot be sustained constantly.”]
“No. It has a shelf life. 1 -2 years, if you’re lucky.”
The madder, the shorter. So “mildly in love” with logical mind intact might be a way to go…. But one could choose degree of to love and to be loved with concrete behaviors, which can generate/germinate solid loving emotions. Then loving emotions could lead more loving actions. It’s spiraling up cycle. For some people, “in love” could take place later in interactions.
”In the beginning you can. But as I’ve written, it doesn’t last. It can’t. It’s Mother Nature’s way of getting people together to procreate. Once there’s been enough time for that to happen, there’s no longer a biological reason for it.”
That’s why it’s unwise to go only after glimmer. One needs to build a solid friendship before the “mad in love” fades away. When two have deep mental and emotional intimacy, the connection could last a lifetime, though not guaranteed. Both sides must work to make romantic seeds to grow and fruit.
“What LO in the history of limerence has ever done this? Limerence makes limerents selfish, not giving.”
My dear, you’re generalizing here again based on your own experiences. I have two long-distance limerent friends w/o SO for decades (one older, one younger). When they were single/divorced, one would call me 1~2 am (okay) to chat and the other tried to “hint” me into a jacuzzi with him (not okay). We always get together w/o their SO when they visit my town or me theirs (they always paid 😆 ).
I took a look into their eyes, I knew they cared and still care. But I never had or able to cultivate that Glimmer for them, and they always knew it thus never declared their feelings. I did/do not know what in me that sustained in them. Both are good looking living in CA and are my friends, probably for life. I only see one twice a year and the other one once every few years.
“Yes, it’s just the ones who follow … I don’t want. 🙂”
Then, perhaps think about why those unwanted ones followed? Also, 1/100 percent followers might be whom you’d want. Again, my approach would be to focus on my own purposeful living, growth and NOT in “hunt” of men.
“I don’t agree. She’s living as she wants to. I would love to be able to do that. Have sex like a man. Enjoy it for the moment and for what it is and move on.”
First of all, in this highly imperfect life on earth, one can’t just live/follow whatever one wants; if one gets whatever one wants, s/he gets bored. Paradoxically, lasting happiness does not go to those who just recklessly or constantly does/gets what s/he desires, particularly in casual sex. I would not befriend or even deal with Samantha type, no time to waste with her kind.
Secondly, human beings are not “lower” mammals who are easily content with basic biological needs fulfilled. Having sex without being affected mentally/emotionally OR being fulfilled/happy ever after is extremely rare and impossible❗️ Examine those libertine’s life, you’d see what lies behind it — Movie “The Libertine” by Johnny Depp. The character is hideous and pathetic.
“I would have remembered him. A beautiful man. 🙂”
I meant that I did not remember anything Jane Fond act in the movie. I have a small collection of Alan Delon’s work. In the past, I thought he’s the most beautiful man in the world (I briefly dated a film maker in Paris who looked like him); lately when taking another look at him, some of his characters are also vain, shallow, or whinny… He’s known for his bad temper and a kind of “lone wolf” in reality. After several gorgeous European wives, he settled with a Japanese woman for a few years until his recent death.
“Unfortunately, you’re moving into the colder months. Maybe it’s not so bad when it isn’t raining ?”
Yes. I’d prefer dry snow to damp rain which makes my old injuries aching. The city is simply gorgeous in Spring, Summer and Fall. 💕 I’m surrounded by three parks with tons of trees and all types of services in a residential area. The business area of the downtown and midtown is hideously noisy and “inhuman”….
Somehow, I’ve got into this wired sleeping pattern: bed early and rise early, with a better efficiency and calmer mood even with massy dreams. The deep night is the time one intimately feels and speaks with one’s soul… All the world’s “red 🔴 dust”— tangibles, do NOT exist; and Imagination could fly 🪽 and soar… 🦋
Miss Snow,
“At beginning, she just intended a casual fling, but the more she met him up, the more she craved an exclusive affair without her fully awareness. ”
She’s a woman. As a general rule, women will start to have feelings if they hook up with the man repeatedly.
“COO is not a culture of “talking a talk”, like chatty Americans 🙄.”
Not all Americans are like that. In a lot of families, nothing much is discussed.
“What’s the point to talk about her immoral affairs that made both my Dad and me “to pay for” in one way or another❓”
If you wanted to know or if it affected you. But if she’s not one to admit to anything, there’s probably no point.
“My lady, please speak for yourself. 😀 I’m NOT one of your “damn posters”. ”
Yes, yes, yes. You’ve mentioned this. 🙂 But when you were limerent …
“But if a romance and possible lasting connection come along my “odd” path unexpectedly, I will certainly welcome it. I still have an ability to tango….”
Whenever I leave it to chance, the person is always someone else’s boyfriend. 🙂
“But one could choose degree of to love and to be loved with concrete behaviors”
I’m not sure you can choose the degree you’re loved. That’s kind of up to the other person.
“For some people, “in love” could take place later in interactions.”
True
“That’s why it’s unwise to go only after glimmer. One needs to build a solid friendship before the “mad in love” fades away. ”
True. If you want it to last, you have to slow things down and get to know the person before acting too quickly/impulsively on the glimmer.
“My dear, you’re generalizing here again based on your own experiences.”
My dear, you do the same thing. 🙂 I’m basing it on this site, so it’s not just my experience.
“I took a look into their eyes, I knew they cared and still care. But I never had or able to cultivate that Glimmer for them, and they always knew it thus never declared their feelings.”
But if one tried to get you into a jacuzzi … he wasn’t a good limerent. It sounds like he was hedging his bets … hoping you’d change your mind.
“Then, perhaps think about why those unwanted ones followed?”
They’re not LOs. I’m relaxed around them.
“First of all, in this highly imperfect life on earth, one can’t just live/follow whatever one wants”
Why not?
“Paradoxically, lasting happiness does not go to those who just recklessly or constantly does/gets what s/he desires, particularly in casual sex. ”
This is your opinion about your life. IMO, if she enjoys casual sex and both sides are ok about what they’re getting into … I think it’s fine.
“Having sex without being affected mentally/emotionally OR being fulfilled/happy ever after is extremely rare and impossible❗️”
You’re projecting. And in the last season of the first series, she does have a long-term relationship. Although in the first movie, it ends. She’s not someone who’s going to stay with one person for a long time.
Oh … in real life, Kim Cattrall just got married. She’s 69. He’s 55. I love it. 🙂
“lately when taking another look at him, some of his characters are also vain, shallow, or whinny…”
Most definitely. He played in the first movie version of the book “The Talented Mr. Ripley. ” The character is a sociopath.
“Yes. I’d prefer dry snow to damp rain which makes my old injuries aching. The city is simply gorgeous in Spring, Summer and Fall. 💕 ”
You live in one of the coolest cities in the world, but, yes, sometimes the weather isn’t great.
“Somehow, I’ve got into this wired sleeping pattern: bed early and rise early, with a better efficiency and calmer mood even with massy dreams. ”
It’s probably better for your circadian rhythms, if you go to bed early.
Miss Marcia,
“She’s a woman. As a general rule, women will start to have feelings if they hook up with the man repeatedly.”
Based on your statement and a biological truth, there would be no permanent Samantha (who also fell in with a much younger waiter/actor in some season)
“Not all Americans are like that. In a lot of families, nothing much is discussed.”
I meant in general among friends, colleagues, acquaints, not just within families. How much nonsense or triviality all Social medias are rambling about? 😓 That’s why I never joined any other blog or group, never had Twitter or Tic Tok, and cancelled all my instagram accounts. COO and America are on the two extreme ends — the former more actions without words; the latter more words without actions! 🙄 Where is the balance?
“If you wanted to know or if it affected you. But if she’s not one to admit to anything, there’s probably no point.”
No, I don’t care about knowing, zero interests, that’s her life. Moreover, it stopped affecting me a long while ago. There is amount of physical and mental sufferings in COO beyond all of you could ever imagine on a visceral level❗️But majority of people over there are resilient and know how to move on psychologically.
Since young, we expected, watched, and accepted that life is imperfect, shitty things happen all the time, by luck or by choice. Western romanticism makes a lot of people believe (and pursue in vain) some kind of Utopia of human life could be reached — a FAT chance with those flaws of human natures!
“Yes, yes, yes. You’ve mentioned this. 🙂 But when you were limerent …”
Not with me even when I was actively limerent. In every single “LE”, I wasn’t looking for novelty or stimulus, but a surrogate “mother” (in men). I fell in LE deeper in the last one due to the sudden loss of my Dad and a bad depression prior to it.
“Whenever I leave it to chance, the person is always someone else’s boyfriend. 🙂”
Glimmer only took place WHENEVER I was truly (in mind) leaving everything to fate. While actively searching through dating app, NO glimmer ever happened, but a bunch of frigging liars with an existing gf, fiancé, and even wife. I could write a book of lies based on their beautifully deceiving words. 😡
“I’m not sure you can choose the degree you’re loved. That’s kind of up to the other person.”
I meant how much one wants to accept. For me, giving is more gratifying, but one cannot just endlessly give without receiving. No one should be a Jesus Christ, nor a Don Juan in the path of a lasting romantic connection. It needs to be a harmonious, satisfying tango, which would take time and effort to practice.
“True. If you want it to last, you have to slow things down and get to know the person before acting too quickly/impulsively on the glimmer.”
🆎 true! We talked about glimmer and compatibility before. Based on some philosophy and psychology, some compatibilities can be built later after mutual glimmers take place and during mutual efforts to nurture the seed of romance+friendship; I firmly believe that a separation of two would NOT work‼️
“My dear, you do the same thing. 🙂 I’m basing it on this site, so it’s not just my experience.”
Yeah, I’ve never met so many “soft spines” in one place… 😀. I begin to doubt whether I belong to limerent tribe at all❗️🤔 The world would have ended a long time ago if without the other half of non-limerent tribe! 😆
“But if one tried to get you into a jacuzzi … he wasn’t a good limerent. It sounds like he was hedging his bets … hoping you’d change your mind.”
That happened when he was divorced between his marriages. As you say, he and even his mother were hopping that I’d change my mind over years. 🙃 Both limerents are in their 3rd marriage ; both are highly functional limerents — meaning they didn’t become “paralyzed” during their LEs. And I actually know why I could not cultivate my glimmer for them; there are compatibility issues — my subconscious 👁️ was not that blind.
“They’re not LOs. I’m relaxed around them.”
Wow, you have time and energy for them! For me, it’s either zero or 💯, if they were not from the old friends or classmates basket.
{“First of all, in this highly imperfect life on earth, one can’t just live/follow whatever one wants”}
“Why not?”
I cannot believe such a question comes out of your pretty 👄 😳!
1. That’s extremely selfish or self-centered! Without giving but only taking, one cannot be happy — a simple psychological balance. We don’t need everyone to become a walking Christ/buddha, but a healthy living has to be giving and taking combined or in seesaw.
2. if you actually get whatever you wand/desire, you’d be bored out of your mind and probably want to pluck your hair out, like those overnight Startup millionaires. We humans are simply NOT chimps, able to be idol and content with basic physical needs.
3. As you have stressed, we humans are social animals, we can’t live alone but in communities. Without some contribution (one’s work) to others and the society that support our physical survival and mental/emotional needs, one would be “kicked out” of a group and feel useless or terribly lonely.
“This is your opinion about your life. IMO, if she enjoys casual sex and both sides are ok about what they’re getting into … I think it’s fine.”
NO, my opinion is not just based on my life, but countless cases in reality. Again, we are not “lowly” mammals living just for animalistic needs, which is meaningless and boring but necessary for surviving or reproducing. I don’t understand why you’re so “ravenous” of casual sex which yourself is even unable to have/enjoy long ‼️ It seems that LE sex is mostly desirous to you and some others.
As we REPEATEDLY discussed that human sexual activity is not as simple as monkeys, soon or later, emotions would be kicked in both for men and women, due to the chemical reactions in the brain induced by sexual activities or physical intimacy. Why a sex “revolution” from 60s has brought men to liberated chimps 🙄 ‼️ Has our sexuality really evolved❓
“You’re projecting. And in the last season of the first series, she does have a long-term relationship. Although in the first movie, it ends. She’s not someone who’s going to stay with one person for a long time.”
Are you talking about Samantha? I HAVE NO further INTERESTs talking about her! And any meaningless/emotionless sex is just DISGUSTING 🤢 to me, PERIOD 🔴! If one more word about causal sex, you’ll never get to taste my hotpot 🍲 and I’m out of LwL‼️
“Kim Cattrall just got married. She’s 69. He’s 55. I love it. 🙂”
Good for her as herself❗️ I don’t follow celebrity’s life and only learned accidentally about her divorce after the series ended.
“You live in one of the coolest cities in the world, but, yes, sometimes the weather isn’t great.”
Outsiders have wide, wild imaginations about the city in all directions❗️ I appreciate the city especially when traveling outside of it, because of a comparison with other places. It can be lonely if one does not know how to fulfill one’s small life with limited means. I can live as an urban “hermit” comfortably here.
“It’s probably better for your circadian rhythms, if you go to bed early.”
I get similar amount of sleep whether going to bed early or late, which is good. But with a short nap in the early evening, my brain functions better, particularly in the dead night 🌌 .
My tiredness comes arbitrarily, which sometimes was caused simply by very busy dreams/nightmares. But it is ultimately beneficial for the Unconscious to show/relieve my worries/concerns, negative/scary imaginations through vivid images and detailed narratives. Occasionally, Stoical preparation for the worst makes me paranoid and paralyzed….
With my past sufferings and their impact, I could never be as carefree or romantic as you guys…. However, I am able to envision and trust sheer imaginations for a time being, to regulate my mood or use them as my guides for the present and future endeavors❓
The clip (1:00) tells some truths, at least to me in the past, before that longing is gone…
https://youtube.com/shorts/V2pDQ9ee0fA?si=d4-KUJbtrlslJCKl — The True Cause of Obsessive Thinking
https://youtube.com/shorts/KS_H8ryMzOQ?si=P1jhzzj0PDtlJbSf — In Loving you, I learned to Love Myself | Esther Perel
https://youtube.com/shorts/rNXqsFas-NU?si=J6r0YxFoXrDAOHwO — “It’s Sex and Relationships, Not sex OR relationships” | Esther Perel
https://youtu.be/jsPsPMM1ZLs?si=xWAVy6cL1rCcIsuL —
Your Two Options in Love After a Bad Childhood
https://youtube.com/shorts/DMZEOWbgscE?si=6R0s1YomQlh7baqj — Why Are Small Pleasures Are a Big Deal
https://youtube.com/shorts/kwx9V1wHoRA?si=XtH2qyhtNHKgkz1z — Is Emotional maturity the same as emotional intelligence?
https://youtu.be/nKee93AC408?si=Agv7_OWKw3wyh9ja — How All Meanness is Inherited
Red Quiet, Section 3
Mei-mei Berssenbrugge
1947 –
Our conversation is a wing below my consciousness, like organization in blowing cloth, eddies of water, its order of light on film with no lens.
A higher resonance of story finds its way to higher organization: data swirl into group dreams.
Then story surfaces, as if recognized; flies buzzing in your room suddenly translate to “Oh! You’re crying!”
So, here I hug the old person, who’s not “light” until I embrace him.
My happiness at seeing him, my French suit constitute at the interface of wing and occasion.
Postulate whether the friendship is fulfilling.
Reduce by small increments your worry about the nature of compassion or the chill of emotional identification among girlfriends, your wish to be held in the consciousness of another, like a person waiting for you to wake.
Postulate the wave nature of wanting him to wait (white space) and the quanta of fractal conflict, point to point, along the outline of a petal, shore from a small boat.
Words spoken with force create particles.
He calls the location of accidents a morphic field; their recurrence is resonance, as of an archetype with the vibration of a seed.
My last thoughts were bitter and helpless.
Friends witnessing grief enter your consciousness, illuminating your form, so quiet comes.
From “Fairies”
Mei-mei Berssenbrugge
1947 –
2
Fairies begin their day by coming together a moment and sharing joy.
They love the feeling, which dew on the leaves draws from grass, lilacs and the response of meadow and flowers to the dawn.
Diminutive green sylphs now run in the grass, whose growth seems intimately associated with theirs, a single line of concentration.
They talk to themselves, constantly repeating, with an intensity causing their etheric doubles, grass, to vibrate as they pass, vivifying growth.
To rabbits and young children they’re visible, but I see points of light, tiny clouds of color and gleams of movement.
The lawn is covered with these flashes.
In low alyssums along a border, one exquisite, tiny being plays around stems, passing in and out of each bud.
She’s happy and feels much affection for the plants, which she regards as her own body.
The material of her actual body is loosely knit as steam or a colored gas, bright apple-green or yellow, and is very close to emotion.
Tenderness for plants shows as rose; sympathy for their growth and adaptability as flashes of emerald.
When she feels joy, her body responds all-over with a desire to be somewhere or do something for plants.
Hers is not a world of surfaces–skin, husks, bark with definite edges and identities.
Trees appear as columns of light melting into surroundings where form is discerned, but is glowing, transparent, mingling like breath.
She tends to a plant by maintaining fusion between the plant’s form and life-vitality contained within.
She works as part of nature’s massed intelligence to express the involution of awareness or consciousness into a form.
And she includes vitality, because one element of form is action.
Sprouting, branching, leafing, blossoming, crumbling to humus are all form to a fairy.
Concordance [Working backward in sleep]
Mei-mei Berssenbrugge
1947 –
Poem by Mei-mei Berssenbrugge
Working backward in sleep, the
last thing you numbed to is what
wakes you.
What if that image were Eros as
words?
What would it be like if you
contemplated my words and I felt
you?
Animals, an owl, frog, open their
eyes, and a mirror forms on the
ground.
When insight comes in a dream,
and events the next day
illuminate it, this begins your
streaming consciousness,
synchronicity, asymptotic lines
of the flights of concordances.
An owl opens its eyes in deep
woods.
For the first time, I write and you
… know me.
Milkweed I touch floats.
Escape
Elinor Wylie
1885 –1928
When foxes eat the last gold grape,
And the last white antelope is killed,
I shall stop fighting and escape
Into a little house I’ll build.
But first I’ll shrink to fairy size,
With a whisper no one understands,
Making blind moons of all your eyes,
And muddy roads of all your hands.
And you may grope for me in vain
In hollows under the mangrove root,
Or where, in apple-scented rain,
The silver wasp-nests hang like fruit.
Voices of the Air
Katherine Mansfield
1888 –1923
But then there comes that moment rare
When, for no cause that I can find,
The little voices of the air
Sound above all the sea and wind.
The sea and wind do then obey
And sighing, sighing double notes
Of double basses, content to play
A droning chord for the little throats—
The little throats that sing and rise
Up into the light with lovely ease
And a kind of magical, sweet surprise
To hear and know themselves for these—
For these little voices: the bee, the fly,
The leaf that taps, the pod that breaks,
The breeze on the grass-tops bending by,
The shrill quick sound that the insect makes.
Velvet Shoes
Elinor Wylie
1885 –1928
Let us walk in the white snow
In a soundless space;
With footsteps quiet and slow,
At a tranquil pace,
Under veils of white lace.
I shall go shod in silk,
And you in wool,
White as white cow’s milk,
More beautiful
Than the breast of a gull.
We shall walk through the still town
In a windless peace;
We shall step upon white down,
Upon silver fleece,
Upon softer than these.
We shall walk in velvet shoes:
Wherever we go
Silence will fall like dews
On white silence below.
We shall walk in the snow.
Let No Charitable Hope
Elinor Wylie
1885 –1928
Now let no charitable hope
Confuse my mind with images
Of eagle and of antelope:
I am by nature none of these.
I was, being human, born alone;
I am, being woman, hard beset;
I live by squeezing from a stone
The little nourishment I get.
In masks outrageous and austere
The years go by in single file;
But none has merited my fear,
And none has quite escaped my smile.
A Song of Enchantment
Walter de la Mare
A song of Enchantment I sang me there,
In a green—green wood, by waters fair,
Just as the words came up to me
I sang it under the wild wood tree.
Widdershins turned I, singing it low,
Watching the wild birds come and go;
No cloud in the deep dark blue to be seen
Under the thick-thatched branches green.
Twilight came: silence came:
The planet of Evening’s silver flame;
By darkening paths I wandered through
Thickets trembling with drops of dew.
But the music is lost and the words are gone
Of the song I sang as I sat alone,
Ages and ages have fallen on me—
On the wood and the pool and the elder tree.
The Unseen Hand
He leaves a blossom on your sill,
A crimson hue, then disappears,
A silent promise, soft and still,
That someone holds your presence dear.
He is in the rhythm of your day,
A whispered tune you can’t quite place,
A sudden warmth that comes to stay,
Reflected in a fleeting space.
He watches you laugh, a melody,
And wish his voice could join the sound,
But fear keeps his true self from thee,
So signs are scattered on the ground.
A book you needed, found by chance,
A favorite candy in your bag,
A lingering, half-hidden glance,
His hidden heart begins to flag.
He is the shadow at your heel,
The breath of wind that stirs your hair,
The silent longing you might feel,
An affection too deep for words to share.
And though you search for who he is,
A ghost of feeling, light and fleet,
Know this: his heart’s a loyal lamb,
And every sign is bittersweet.
He’s but a watcher from the wings,
A quiet force you cannot see,
Until the day his courage sings,
And sets his secret feelings free.
Until that day, he’ll leave these clues,
These little echoes of his soul,
Hoping you’ll read between the hues,
And make his hidden affection feel whole.
The air grows heavy when your shadow falls,
Radiance hidden within transient walls.
Under the Moon’s pale, knowing, watchful gaze,
Time holds its breath within our silent maze.
Hearts tell the stories the lips won’t betray,
Echoes of eddies in each day.
Unseen, yet vital as the air we share,
Nearness that lingers when you are there.
Secret languages only the eyes know,
Passion’s soft ember with a glimmering glow.
Only the wind hears the whispers I keep,
Kettle whistled in the dreams while I sleep.
Eternity woven in the moments we steal,
New truths the silence will one day reveal.
Dr. L,
Just wanted to send you an end-of-week congratulations over the fact your two best-performing videos are continuing to do well. The video “Don’t Fight It” has now cracked the top seven and “7 Signs of Limerence” is approaching 200k views.
In the comments section of “7 Signs…”, someone left the comment “Jesus loves you”. This comment intrigued me. Was it left by some Christian trying to evangelise at an inappropriate moment? (My mother always picked the worst times possible to evangelise people, so I DO understand the psychology). Was it left by some Christian trying to send subliminal messages to the masses? (Find God and your limerent patterns will disappear?) Then I realised the commentator also included a time. That time was 0.00. In other words, the time refers to the first frame of your video.
In the first frame of your video, Dr. L, it appears that you have unintentionally recreated some of the most classic iconography of classic Christian art. You look exactly as Jesus looks when artists chose to depict him as “Christ, the Light of the World”. First, there’s the concerned expression on your face. Second, there’s the placement of your hands, seemingly positioned in a gesture of outreach toward the world. Third, and most importantly, there’s the subdued lighting in a darkened room that seems to surround you like a halo. Your likeness here to traditional representations of the son of God really is uncanny. 🙂
If Teika isn’t aware of this fascinating visual, maybe you could point it out to her sometime? As a believer herself, she’d probably find the coincidence rather amusing. 🙂
Thank you again for all the wonderful work you do. I am not quite comfortable yet with saying that “limerence is a behavioural addiction”. It is perhaps unwise to make any definitive statements about a topic that remains so sensitive for a lot of people. However, I am comfortable with the statement: “Limerence is analogous to a behavioural addiction”. I feel the statement “limerence is analogous to a behavioural addiction” is consistent with what you have written on the subject to date and also with what Lucy Bain has said. I feel the statement in no way contradicts the findings of Dorothy Tennov and Dr. Helen Fisher. And I feel the statement is compatible with the valuable insights offered up by such diverse figures as Dr. Joe Beam, Dr. David Perl, and Fenna van den Berg.
Speaking of Dr. David Perl, one of his favourite things to say about limerence seems to be: “Limerence is the mother of all distractions.” An interesting remark, to be sure. Makes me wonder what I needed to distract myself from for so long? (I think I just have a colourful imagination. My life was never terrible). 🤣
Another interesting conversation that arose at limerence.net is whether limerence is more of a solitary journey or a communal voyage. The consensus, led by female commentators, was that most people experience limerence as a very lonely odyssey, and not something that can really be turned into a communal activity – not that the commentariat at LwL hasn’t tried its darned hardest! (I think ordinary crushes belong more in the realm of playful social banter, etc). 🙂
I ran into LO last night, and he gave me an update on his home, which has been on the market for almost five months.
They’re not getting any offers, and the real estate agent advised him to drop the price by a million dollars, which he refuses to do.
I noticed, with some relief, that I didn’t much care about LO’s house problems, since they are all self-inflicted. His drama is all self-created, and is exhausting.
It’s hard for me to have any sympathy for him when he has done all of this to himself. Also, the house that he tried to buy on the other side of the country, just closed escrow today, to another buyer. I’m sure LO is furious, but I’m not interested enough to ask him.
I hope that my lack of interest continues. This is a good sign.
Dear Norma, that is a very good sign that you are making progress. I think my FB incident with LO and the annoyance that it didn’t fulfill me the way I thought it would a milestone for my letting go. I’m very proud of you moving forward. You are a dear woman that deserves better treatment than he gives you. Grrr … ok gotta go it’s setting in … gotta find a new dance song for us. Yeah, yeah that’ll keep me distracted.
Dear Adam:
I am all ears.
It was one year before my conception, but my folks had their record and this was my favorite song on the album. Norma the Dancing Queen. If I’d been alive to cut the rug with you on this one …
Dancing Queen— ABBA
https://youtu.be/xFrGuyw1V8s?si=RwbGME1cyrAbTuEW
To Adam:
Oh my goodness, you are young! I was about 23 when this song came out.
I am old enough to be your mother.
Where’s my Marcia?
Her and I will cut the rug to this one.. 😂😂
MJ,
“Her and I will cut the rug to this one.. 😂😂”
You and I were knee-high to a grasshopper when that song came out.
Do you think that’s another phrase that came out in 1900? 🙂
Dear Norma (or can I now call you Momma Norma?) I don’t think you’d want to be my mother. I was almost 10 months before I wanted to leave the womb. I came out 12lbs 4oz. Don’t remember how long. But suffice to say mother told me she had to return all the newborn clothes for 6 month clothes. Mother had gestational diabetes when she had me. And she did it all at home with just her primary physician. Which of course did baby deliveries too. I was born in 1977. So I might could have been actually conceived to Dancing Queen. 😁 Though knowing my folks music it was either The Carpenters, my father’s choice or Johnny Mathis, my mother’s choice. Though with my taste in music I’d like to think I was conceived to Barry White or the Isley Brothers. My mother was born in 1953 and my father in 1951.
To Adam:
Thank you for that interesting information. Your mom’s childbirth experience is nothing to be envied. Of course, I had an emergency caesarean, so that was no picnic, either.
I am in exactly the same age group as your parents.
I never liked The Carpenters, but I love Johnny Mathis. His song, “All The Time,” was played at my wedding reception for our first dance.
Adam, you’re just a year older than me, then, if that. I guess our age is probably a peak age for married limerence. I expect that Dr L is our age too, although luckily for us he was struck a few years earlier which gave him time to do the legwork to help us.
However Norma and your parents are half a generation younger than my parents, both departed now.
Dear Norma, Momma had both our boys by emergency cesarean. Our oldest was 14 weeks early and our youngest was 8 weeks early. The doc put in perspective to me that our oldest was the size and weight of a 1 liter bottle of soda. And our youngest was 5 lbs. Momma said our oldest was a double foot length breach with a prolapsed cord. You ladies are amazing.
To quote one of my favorite comedians about women he said (paraphrased) … women are amazing. They can grow a baby inside them, then by some miracle they can bring the baby into the world through their bodies and then by some miracle they can feed a baby with their bodies. And when you think about the male contribution to life, it’s really embarrassing. Yeah well I helped out for 5 seconds. Doing the one thing I think about 24/7. 😂
Cloud
I do agree that limerence, among other things, are very susceptible in middle age. Maybe some things are different for women vs men. Middle age almost seems like puberty to me. Things are going on in your head and body that you are not quite sure of. And it can be very confusing. I still wished I’d bought a sports car I couldn’t afford than fall in limerence. At least the car could reposed. Getting over limerence isn’t that easy.
Yes, of all the mid-life crisis symptoms we could have had, limerence really sucks. What’s really hard is the secrecy. You lot are the only people who know I’m going through this, except for one counsellor I had a few sessions with, not even in person.
Cloud (Strife 😁 sorry I can’t help it)
We are always here for you. From those that are still struggling (me still to some minor degree) to those over it completely.
Dr L is amazing in his perspective. I watched his latest video on 10 difficulties in limerence and when got to guilt, I was like oh boy that’s me. But he gave a good perspective on using guilt in a positive way rather than a negative way like I did. There’s no way if I hadn’t found LwL and Dr L my marriage would have lasted. I’d be chasing LO still. That kind of guilt is the wrong kind. But I guess by Dr L’s merits it’s the right kind because it maintains NC for me. He and Mrs L are lifesavers.
You’re several years younger than I am, Adam. 🙂 Dang, that’s a big baby. Even bigger than mine was. And was he ever hard to push out. Then after all the childbirthing comes menopause and all the joys—which we don’t expect because nobody used to talk about it like they do now. I swear every little weirdness I deal with now can be connected to perimenopause. And the limerence, while always present, is going like mad.
I must be the oldest one here. I certainly never expected to get hit by limerence at my age. I wasn’t even familiar with the word when it started.
I really am glad I am almost through my limerence adventure. It’s been interesting, but it sure hasn’t been fun.
To Cloud, (all are welcome to chime in!),
“What’s really hard is the secrecy. You lot are the only people who know I’m going through this …”
I gather that you’ve disclosed to neither SO nor LO; in that way, we are in a similar position. This stands in opposition to Dr L’s recommendation to married limerents, which is to disclose to SO but not LO.
I am finding the thought of disclosing to SO extremely scary, but recently have been considering changing tactics. A few things have happened recently causing me to reconsider.
For the past two months, I have been in total NC with my young, coworker LO; doing fully remote work the entire time. However, the intrusive thoughts regarding LO have not significantly abated. Additionally, the positive aspects of in person work, (socializing, networking, the exchange of ideas, etc.), have also disappeared.
Just earlier today, my wife, (who as I said doesn’t know about LO) noticed my relative recent disengagement from work, and suggested returning there at least once a week. Of course, that has the danger of reigniting the limerence, “taking it to eleven”, so to speak (with apologies to Spinal Tap).
I would like to know how many people have disclosed to LO or not, as well as their reasons for doing so. How has the experience been, and what would you do differently if given the opportunity?
Thank you for your consideration.
Sorry, I meant “disclosed to SO”.
“Knee-high to a grasshopper”
Marcia
Speaking of 1900..
Thank you for aging us again. I was probably about 10 the last time I heard someone use that phrase. So now we’re even.. 😂
MJ,
“Speaking of 1900..
Thank you for aging us again. ”
I’m not “aging” us. I just not in denial like you are. 🙂
“I was probably about 10 the last time I heard someone use that phrase. So now we’re even.. 😂”
I’m piggybacking on what you and Brother write. It’s like you were raised by your great grandparents. 🙂
Dame Marcia and MJ
I’m dreaming of when my mother and father figures have a romantic night together and you both realize you’re perfect for each other and your little boy can be like … ahhh mommy and daddy love each other.
Post this or not?! Hmmm. I’m a bit drunk. Maybe not the best post you’ve made in your life. Ah f it. Brother how much I am gonna be in trouble now?
Hi CatCyclist,
I haven’t disclosed to my SO. This is a very delicate decision and it depends much on your type of relationship, communication, etc.
The reason Dr L recommends disclosing to SO and not LO is, I guess, to create a unit with SO against limerence, not widen the breach to SO through keeping them in ignorance while disclosing to LO.
But will it create a unit? That depends on a lot of things, I think.
How would your SO react? They have to be quite mature, self-confident people to take that in their stride without questioning your marriage and trust. Could be they are devastated and angry, could be they are understanding and helpful. Could be that they will prescribe the course of action to you (change your job, never answer any text again etc) instead letting you fight limerence the way you feel is the best. Could be their hurt will be much bigger than the gain you have (finally a person who knows etc).
For me, I felt there would be too much emotional upheaval and hurting SO, I felt this was my problem alone and I had to deal with it alone (only LwL people knowing about it).
The question is of course, where is the line between dealing with your problem yourself and not burdening SO, and gaslighting.
Only you can know!
Hi CatCyclist,
I haven’t disclosed it to SO, though it has been impossible to hide some of it totally for this long, so I feel I’ve (undeliberately) left clues out there.
In my own thinking, and from what I’ve read among the LwLer collective, generally I think it is only better to disclose to SO if one or both of these two things applies:
1. The LE is really out of your control to the point that letting it continue would destroy you / your relationship with SO
2. You think (on balance of probabilities) that telling SO will allow you to improve the quality of your relationship somehow – and that that can’t be achieved in another way.
Those are massive generalities. Everyone’s SO and relationship differs. I’d ask yourself what outcome you’re hoping for if you disclose. I don’t think ‘cleansing one’s own soul’, so to speak, is enough. I think you have to think whether it is the right thing for *SO* that the discussion happens.
We tend to know our SOs pretty well. I know, almost beyond doubt, that if I told SO about my LE, she would blame herself and beat herself up for a long time, and she may well not listen for long enough for me to try to distinguish limerence from an affair (for example).
Now, you might argue I shouldn’t be second guessing how SO would react, or withholding the facts, thus taking away her agency to react in whatever d**med way she wants.
But, I have weighed up how telling her and not telling her would likely play out, based on long experiences and balance of probability.
I talked to some SOs on here about this issue in the past year and several of them said they’d rather not receieve a disclosure, if their limerent partner could end the LE by their own means. Others took the opposite view that they had the right to know.
It is quite a big genie to let out of the bottle (your head) that it is currently in.
There are definitely posters in the LwL archives whose situation improved after telling SO, but I can’t remember their details.
I told my wife about limerence the day I found LwL. The night I came home from work. But in my case my wife already voiced that she thought LO and I were having an affair. Like LaR said disclosing to a spouse/partner is case to case. In my case it was eminent. My wife at first didn’t believe it and still sided with an affair. But over the years, and posting here herself at one point has come to understand. And has been more than she should have to be supportive of me. I had an intrusive thought one night when we were cooking together, said LO’s name out loud, realized what I did and she held me in her arms while I cried about another woman. She’s too good for this old drunk. Not sure why she puts up with me sometimes.
Hello CatCyclist,
I have told my SO that I’m a bit wary of LO because I find him attractive, and have had to make some work-related decisions on the basis of not seeing too much of him. My SO is fine about it, it’s not stopped him being friends with him, and he’s not expecting me to avoid him completely. He trusts me to be grown up about it.
I don’t want to explain quite how bad it has been or about limerence to my SO, because I think that would be pretty upsetting and it would be burdening him with a problem that belongs to me.
I’m definitely not going to disclose to LO! Dr L is clear on the disadvantages of such a move. He has explained that it doesn’t provide the closure that some people hope it might.
“I’m piggybacking on what you and Brother write. It’s like you were raised by your great grandparents. 🙂”
Marcia
Adam and I are just using words and phrases that never should have put in the closet. As Men we’re probably more the stubborn type. Afterall him and I have been here quite awhile obsessing over Women we’ll never have.. If that isn’t stubborn, well then I’ll bet your bottom dollar, I don’t know what is.. 😂
MJ,
” As Men we’re probably more the stubborn type. ”
Stubborn is a nice way of putting it. 🙂
We’re getting closer to the holidays. I think you know what that means … your deadline, baby. 🙂
“We’re getting closer to the holidays. I think you know what that means … your deadline, baby. 🙂”
Marcia
Perhaps it will interest you that I just talked with her about it again. We both agree with our schedules, it will probably be easier to make happen over the holiday break. I was hoping that we could go next weekend, but she’s committed to ot on another shift. Which is fine. Again this arrangement seems to be working well for the both of us and I am taking the reigns and being plan-minded about it. Suggesting what we might do. Since you have ingrained it into my thick, stubborn skull, that a man with a plan is sexy man.. 😆
I also had an un-planned moment take place with LF last week where I pretty much decided I’m not going to be her enemy and keep being awkward around her everytime I have to work in her vicinity. Its just been too weird lately and with all her staring and then never saying anything to why she’s doing it. (Maybe just an attention grab?, validation?) It just makes me nervous and giddy, so I said enough. She sees NewGirl and I getting along and so I think that bothers her a little. I mean its such High School gamey horse$#!+, but this is where she’s at. (A part of me still thinks she’s nuts. 😆)
I also think this pleasantly surprised her because immediately her tension evaporated and she was right back to being her same old cool self she used to be around me. Calling me names and telling me to F— off..
(Our common old way of communicating 😂)
It was her bday too, so I got to heavily rib her about turning 31. Reminding her that 54 isn’t all that far away. Of course I was called a few more choice names because of that, but I didn’t mind. I made up for it by telling her happy bday and she was touched and surprised I remembered..
MJ,
“and I am taking the reigns and being plan-minded about it. Suggesting what we might do. Since you have ingrained it into my thick, stubborn skull, that a man with a plan is sexy man.. 😆”
Yes, but there’s no plan. It’s vague. A plan includes a date, time and place to meet. And it’s not usually suggested six months out, like a dental appointment. 🙂
“A part of me still thinks she’s nuts. 😆)”
Well, you know what they say about crazy women. 🙂
I would be cautious about LF. I’m glad you are getting along and the tension has lessened, but I’d keep it a work friendship. I wouldn’t text her. She doesn’t deserve that much attention from you. Unless she wants to apologize for how she treated you after you told her that personal info. And I certainly wouldn’t ask her to do something again, even if she apologizes. She’d need to be the one to initiate hanging out. You’ve already asked. The ball’s in her court. I know she’s dating someone. I’m talking about a friendship. If you were interested in a friendship outside of work. I’m not sure you are.
CatCyclist,
“The alternate (and in my opinion equally plausible) explanation is based on evolutionary theory regarding women’s fertility, which I’m sure you’ve heard of …”
It’s the same for women. I’d say (and I’m speaking in generalities) male attractants are resources and competency. And of course being attractive is a huge plus.
Dear Norma,
You are right; I’m absolutely not disclosing today!
Now, if only you could un-disclose to your LO, take away his power over you. Actually, you already have that power. We all need to learn to harness it.
Marcia,
“male attractants are resources and competency”…
Absolutely. When I was younger, I used to be annoyed by this. Now, I understand this is how the world works. I am now a Darwinian.
Regarding “competency”, it is subject to various interpretations, explaining the varied tastes of women in men.
Fertility has a narrower range of interpretation, answering the original question about the frequency of young female LOs.
CatCyclist,
“When I was younger, I used to be annoyed by this. ”
Oh, I’m more than annoyed by the fact that men my age are trying to pick up younger women. I just don’t get it. From a very practical standpoint, thousands of years of biology have to meet up with a degree of common sense. An older man who is trying to pick up much younger women has to be aware these women are at the height of their sexual power. He’s going to have a lot of competition. That’s just the reality. A multi-decade age difference is not a plus. If you look at studies, women have a tendency to prefer men right around their age. Of course there are exceptions, but how many of us are exceptions? If we’re being honest. 🙂
“Regarding “competency”, it is subject to various interpretations, explaining the varied tastes of women in men.”
I agree.
This is to CatCyclist:
I would think carefully before disclosing to your wife.
How well do you think she can handle it?
There’s another poster called New To Limerence who has told his wife, and she is handling it, but with difficulty. I haven’t seen him posting recently, so I don’t know how he’s holding up.
Other people would be in a better position to give you advice. I am just going by other situations, when I was in therapy, where the therapist always advised in favor of disclosing something, and it didn’t always work out well.
Once you tell her, you can’t un-tell her.
To Norma, Mila, Cloud, LaR and Adam,
Thank you so much for your replies; they add so much overall perspective!
A bit of background that might shed some light about what my wife knows about me and our respective vulnerabilities.
I have a long history of limerent episodes with young women in their 20’s, dating all the way back to when I was that age. I have disclosed to my wife the earlier episodes, which occurred well before our marriage.
My first post marriage episode occurred about five years into our marriage, when my wife and I were both in our mid 40’s. My LO back then was a relative of my wife, (not technically a “niece”), and was a graduate student who periodically stayed with us for extended durations. During these periods, the three of us shared most meals, whether at home or outside, and had frequent joint outings as well, to movies, etc. I definitely felt a certain sexual tension with LO (to this day, I have no idea if it was mutual), which my wife took note of — she often caught me stealing glances. Mostly, she was more amused by this than threatened, realizing that nothing physical would ever happen. Within a couple of years, she (the LO) got a boyfriend and later got married. Much to my surprise, they asked me to give a speech at their wedding, which I did; it took all of the courage I could muster to show all of my happiness and none of my sadness. This event marked a turning point in my very gradual recovery from that LE. Fifteen years later, they continue to live in our region, and we see them regularly and regularly share hugs.
Jumping forward to last year …
I have been writing at length on this blog about my new LO, again a young woman in her 20’s, since about August of this year, so I won’t repeat all the details, but recap just the most important points.
I retired from my workplace in June 2024, and my wife and my new LO, the then-intern, were both present at the retirement ceremony, where LO publicly said some very nice things about me, which at the moment made me euphoric but unfortunately put my LE into overdrive. I certainly would have introduced them had the opportunity arisen naturally, but it did not. Over the past two years, I’ve told my wife several times about my LO’s existence, as well as her extraordinary talent and sweet disposition, but not about the space she occupies in my mind.
Moving forward to early this year …
I had re-joined my old organization on a part-time basis in the spring of this year, in which I was given the option to work in an almost fully remote manner. I knew there was a possibility my LO would return as a permanent employee, but figured the chances of our paths crossing again would be quite low, since our workplace has thousands of people spanning several miles.
Then one day in the spring, completely out of the blue, my wife told me she had just had a nightmare. She had dreamt that I was having an affair with a young girl whose physical description matched the LO’s perfectly, although she couldn’t recall her face. I reassured my wife I would never leave her. Although I do not believe dreams like this can foretell the future, I nonetheless thought this turn of events was oddly timed, because I was on a steady path to recovery from this LE.
Then, a few months later, I had my own dream-quake involving the LO; but this one was euphoric. But there was still no sign of LO in real life, and I again figured my mind was playing tricks on me.
Then, two more months later, I did run into her in real life at work, setting off another euphoric episode that was not a dream, to be followed by yet another one two months later. All the while I was aiming for as limited contact as possible; the run-ins were just interruptions which upset my equilibrium. After September, because limited contact was not working, I have strived to aim for as little contact as possible.
Unfortunately, as I mentioned in my previous post, another unintended effect of working remotely was reduced engagement with my colleagues. My wife has noticed this, and has encouraged me to return to the office more frequently. Not being aware of my limerence, she obviously cannot realize that doing so would make my recovery from it more difficult. So how do I resolve this dilemma? Should I tell her why this is a bad idea? Indeed, is it a bad idea on balance?
I should also note that while our marriage had experienced a decades-long intimacy drought, it has improved dramatically in the past year. I am committed to being monogamous (which I have always been) and fully present (where I have been somewhat lacking).
Overall, I have found your accounts and suggestions enormously helpful, but am still wracked by indecision.
The prior experience with limerence, and the way my wife took it in stride, is a testament to her strength and trust in me. However, that situation was different from the current one in that she actually saw with her own eyes how it evolved, and did not have to rely solely upon my word. Therefore, as of now, I am leaning against disclosing.
Thank you so very much.
Catcyclist,
It is a difficult decision. I don’t know what I would do in your situation.
What I find interesting to ponder is why your taste in women has basically stayed at the same age as you have got older. When I was young, I thought that other young people were attractive, it was downhill from there, and older people only dated other older people because that’s what’s socially acceptable. But as I grew older, I continued only to be attracted to men around my age. The fantasy of “getting” a younger person didn’t hold appeal to me. I can appreciate the beauty of a younger person in the same way as I might a cat or a work of art, but not fancy them.
It’s a typical complaint of women that men seem to be attracted to much younger women. I’d be interested to know (without judgement) who else on this forum is attracted to people of much different ages and whether there’s a male/female divide? Or whether fantasising about much younger people is a way our brain subconsciously tries to replace something that was missing for us when we were that age?
If anybody in this forum has had a nerving experience of disclosing, its Speedwagon. (Not to his SO but to his LO.)
Once the disclosing has been put out there, it can be followed up with months or years of awkward tension between 2 people that can never really be undone.
No matter how much or how little reverie you want to apply to your LO does not matter, you are on a slippery slope if you disclose. It’s good that you’re considering NOT disclosing.
I have disclosed things to a Friend before too and while it didn’t go the way I wanted, it wasn’t a horror show either. However the dynamic between us has dramatically shifted. I just need to learn how to keep my big fat mouth shut..
Dear CatCyclist,
I wanted to chip in and say that disclosing to SO is something that I also decided against. Now that limerence is mainly in the rear-view mirror, I am very glad that I never told my SO anything. My reasons were the same as Mila and LaR, I had no intention of leaving my SO and also I figured that it was my own mess to sort out.
The fact that you disclosed to your SO previously – or she guessed – with no bad consequences is relevant. But I do think that having this happen a second time might knock your SO’s confidence, especially as you are both older now (people’s self confidence can sometimes be reduced by age).
The thing that really strikes me is that your recovery seems to be going really well until you encounter LO, then have a set-back. I mean, you’ve really been doing everything right by staying away from her. Many of us find doing the right thing for our recovery very difficult, so hats off to you for this! It seems like the bigger question for you to figure out is not whether to come clean and tell SO the ‘real reason’ that you prefer to work remotely, a little white lie about not going to the office is always possible (‘so-and’so in the office is a bit loud and so I get nothing done’). But your SO pointed out that you seem to be languishing without going in to the office. Is this because of your LE causing you to suffer a bit, which your SO has noticed, or [big difference], is it that you really are missing the old dynamics in a busy and stimulating workplace? Answering this question requires complete honesty with yourself and a bit of reflection, perhaps.
Then you might need to ask yourself whether the satisfaction you get from face time with work colleagues (apart from LO) is worth the risk of seeing her and having a set back. Maybe you could see whether it is possible to get more face time at work without running into LO, but only if that doesn’t turn the whole thing into a giant game of hide and seek, ramping up uncertainty etc.
Dear Cloud,
Thank you for your artfully posed questions/comments regarding LO’s age, and how your own experience contrasts with mine.
I have been struggling with, and experiencing shame, regarding this issue for the greater part of the past three decades!
Now, to attempt to answer your question. From high school to two years beyond my undergraduate years (ages 15-24), I had a succession of unrequited loves, and due to this, was rather miserable. At least one of them — the gold standard — lives on in my head in a mostly dormant fashion, and I quit despairing over her eons ago. Even so, never having experienced mutual romantic love, I came to believe that I was fundamentally unattractive, or at best regarded by women as asexual.
Today, whenever a woman, especially a young woman, expresses a level of interest in me that indicates even a slight possibility that she is attracted to me, I develop at least a mild crush on her. If she also has all of the traits I admire (primarily intelligence and kindness), in addition to features I am ashamed of (my attraction to much younger women), the crush turns into all-out limerence. In a nutshell, this is my psychoanalytic explanation: In developing unwanted limerence for younger women (who are frequently graduate students), I am trying to requite my past unrequited loves.
The alternate (and in my opinion equally plausible) explanation is based on evolutionary theory regarding women’s fertility, which I’m sure you’ve heard of …
My therapist, who is an attractive woman in her 50’s, seems to favor the evolutionary theory explanation over the psychoanalytic one. Her therapeutic style is cognitive-behavioral, as opposed to psycholanalytic. She is more interested in formulating our actions going forward than in analyzing the past, which she sees as tantamount to rumination.
I hope that I’ve answered at least some of your questions. You see, I do not WANT to be limerent for younger LOs. I’ve been trying to steer my attraction towards my wife, and have had some measure of success recently.
Hi CatCyclist,
thanks for the details!
While your SO reacted ok on your last LE, I wouldn’t just assume she would react the same way now. Her dream shows that it bothered her more than you might have noticed.
I would consider it really carefully.
Bewitched pointed something out that I had wanted to address too, but somehow forgot:
do you miss your workplace and personal interaction with colleagues, going out of the house for work etc, completely aside from LO related issues?
Me, I was always determined not to let limerence wreck or reduce my life even more, i.e. not let it hinder me to go/participate in stuff that I really wanted to go to (unrelated to LO).
So maybe it’s not good to let limerence shove you into the not- socializing corner?
You just have to be sure that your secret motivation to go to work wouldn’t be to see LO.
But then, to languish at home and deny myself human contact because of LO would personally sit wrong with me and I would just go to „show limerence“, but maybe that is completely the wrong approach for you.
I might have used a wrong turn of phrase, not being a native speaker- I meant I would go to work simply to defy limerence and not let it control my life (of course only if I really wanted to go and just didn’t dare because of LO)
CatCyclist,
To piggyback a bit on Bewitched and Mila’s points – I too admire your resolve in staying away from work to keep NC with LO.
I tried that same course of action as much as I could for several weeks, until it got a bit silly. People who have been here on LwL a while will remember it contibuted to quite a miserable spell for me. It only got better once I faced it a bit and got back to more onsite working. Rather than try to play cat and mouse with LO, the outcome was that I convinced myself that I could be in the environment with her at work without it causing an
too much distress (most of the time, but that’s Ok for now). I’ve been a lot better since I hit that equilibrium. But I needed exposure to hit it.
The trick for you is to
convince yourself of something similar. She will be there but does she have to *get* to you so much?
It’s as the others have said here – and only you’ll know the answer – there is a balance to strike between LO’s effect on your equilibrium, and the effects of being isolated from everyone / everything else at work too.
Isn’t there also a danger that if you save it up for once in a blue moon, then it becomes a ‘bigger event’ each time?
CatCyclist “I hope that I’ve answered at least some of your questions. You see, I do not WANT to be limerent for younger LOs.”
Yes, I realise this and I can see it causes you a lot of pain and feelings of guilt. It sounds as though you’ve already been trying to understand it in your sessions with your therapist and haven’t really come to any conclusions yet. Your explanation about unhappy formative years with successive unrequited loves is certainly plausible to me.
Although there’s still a way to go towards recovery from your current Limerent Episode, it does sound as though you have made some progress. Do you feel as though working through Dr L’s materials has got you any further on towards freedom from limerence in general?
To Bewitched, Mila, and LaR,
Bewitched,
I am coming to agree with you that “it is my own mess to sort out”, and that I should not do anything to impose an unnecessary psychological burden on my wife.
“The thing that really strikes me is that your recovery seems to be going really well until you encounter LO, then have a set-back. I mean, you’ve really been doing everything right by staying away from her.”
There are a few key factors accounting for the difference between my LE approach/trajectory with those of others on this site. When I first met her along with the three other interns in June 2023, it was super obvious how young she was, so it was important for me not to take advantage of her in any way. Initially, the idea of having a crush on her seemed absurd, but within weeks, I could not explain to myself why my heart would race everytime I spoke to her, and I could no longer deny it to myself. So, I started to “ride the brakes”, even as our bond slowly strengthened. As a result, I never got in as deep as many others on this site.
“a little white lie about not going to the office is always possible …”
That is a great way to frame it; I may try to guide my approach.
“Is this because of your LE causing you to suffer a bit, which your SO has noticed, or [big difference], is it that you really are missing the old dynamics in a busy and stimulating workplace?”
It is really a little bit of both. Well, the former is self evident (to me but not to SO). The latter is evident to both me and my SO. How can I be so sure? I was really enjoying my once weekly trips to the office between March (when I started my part-time venture) and July (when LO returned to work), and my wife noticed this too.
Mila,
“I was always determined not to let limerence wreck or reduce my life even more, i.e. not let it hinder me to go/participate in stuff that I really wanted to go to (unrelated to LO)”
Mila and LaR,
This is sort of the approach I tried in July through September, but experienced periods of distress, along with bursts of euphoria and also more normal levels/sources of pleasure/satisfaction. Now, with the essentially NC approach, I am still experiencing the distress, but not the satisfaction. I am still trying to find the right balance. All or nothing thinking might not be the right way.
LaR,
“Isn’t there also a danger that if you save it up for once in a blue moon, then it becomes a ‘bigger event’ each time?”.
LaR, you absolutely nailed it! In fact, your words are true in a really broad sense!
Let me explain. Up until I retired last year, I had come to realize that I was experiencing a crush, but I was not experiencing an internal earthquake every few months. During that time, over the summers, I would talk to her around once or twice a week, but only briefly — rarely more than 5-10 minutes at a time. The idea of no contact had not yet entered my lexicon. It was only after my retirement that I had to confront my grief of probably never seeing her again. The tried and true remedy for getting over a crush, even in non-limerence-aware circles, is no contact. And after several months, the strategy appeared to be paying off — I was experiencing a return to normalcy, and everyone noted how much happier I seemed.
However, when she unexpectedly returned to work this summer, there was a huge bursting of the bubble. For the first time, I felt certain that this girl has a crush on me. She remembers everything about me, all of our exchanges. I am not dreaming this. The feelings are mutual and they are real … Now, I know that us limerents are warned not to get inside LO’s head, but … you had to be there!
And the bubble burst again two months ago. And now, it has been two months after that …
With apologies to the reader …
To CatCyclist:
After reading all of the replies and your comments, I feel that you should wait before telling your wife anything.
The fact that you are so hesitant should tell you something.
Once it’s done, you can’t control the fallout from your disclosure.
You might tell yourself, “I don’t have to disclose to my wife TODAY.”
To Cloud,
I do believe that Dr L has vastly increased my understanding of the phenomenon. He undoubtedly has among the best resources and recovery strategies.
When I first joined this summer, I was hoping for a relatively quick recovery, perhaps by the end of this year. Now I realize perhaps my goals were too ambitious, and maybe I’ve been “trying too hard” regarding no contact, which may have backfired in a work environment — see my earlier post.
Thanks for your sympathy.
By the way, thanks for your comments with regard to appreciating cats’ beauty. I will gladly accept the compliment!
This is to CatCyclist regarding your reply to me up above.
I have no idea how to get this to post in the correct place.
I don’t regret disclosing to LO. We’re both single, after all.
I felt a tremendous amount of fear and tension before I told him. I was relieved that he was so accepting. In fact, he gave me a little talk about how “tolerant” he is toward other people’s quirks. I don’t know if I see him as such, but HE certainly believes he is tolerant. I don’t think he understands how deep my emotions run, and it’s just as well if he doesn’t.
I don’t feel my disclosing to him gives him power over me. He has never attempted to manipulate me. My own emotions give him power over me, yes, but I have done all of that to myself.
I hug him and kiss him when I see him, and there is a certain level of comfort that he knows how I feel.
And getting back to your problem, I would just say to myself, “I don’t have to disclose TODAY.” Do it every day until you feel like you need to make a different choice.
MJ,
I am not disclosing. Not hurting my SO, as well as improving the state of our marriage, is very important to me.
Thanks.
Dear Norma,
When I wrote “un-disclose”, it was a silly retort to when you said “you can’t un-tell”.
Please don’t take me too seriously; most of the time I don’t know what I’m saying anyway.
To CatCyclist:
Point noted. Communicating on a message board can be tricky.
I feel more strongly than ever that you should not disclose to SO unless and until you are sure it’s the right thing to do.
Marcia,
“Oh, I’m more than annoyed by the fact that men my age are trying to pick up younger women.”
It seems that if they rarely succeed, it would be their loss, not yours, so why are you annoyed? The rest of your statement regarding the futility of their efforts, I perfectly agree with.
By the way, the girls/women I dated, or wanted to date, were all within several years of my age. It was the LOs who were much younger than me. The distinction is important. For example, my wife is the same age as me, as were all “potential” wives. So I hope you don’t find a reason to be annoyed at me!
CatCyclist,
“It seems that if they rarely succeed, it would be their loss, not yours, so why are you annoyed? ”
Because after they don’t succeed with the younger ones, do they turn to women my age? Nobody wants to be a consolation prize. Or a “practical choice” prize.
“It was the LOs who were much younger than me. The distinction is important.”
I read this quote in an article in The Guardian. “Limerence is to confront desire in one of its rawest forms.” I think that’s true. You can interpret “desire” in many ways beyond sexual desire. Were your LOs available to you? Were any of them interested? Why is there a different category of women you date or marry?
How to know if your wife is listening to you or not “Mommy I got the frozen dinners you wanted.” No response or a “huh?” Throws hands, she heard you.
I have realized that I need to get from “everything he does is magic” to “everything he does is bullsh*t.”
I’m making pretty good progress.
“You can anything that you desire.”
America— You Can Do Magic
https://youtu.be/tt4cR9szMS8?si=bwe68QkwGKqx7VaF
To Adam:
I don’t feel very magical, nor do I think LO is anymore, either.
He is consumed with his house issues. In his business, architecture and interior design are what make his little Grinch heart go pitter-patter.
Nothing I have ever said or done resonates with him to any degree.
You magically got my attention since you have been here Dear Norma. Don’t sell yourself short. 😉
And in regards to LO, I am feeling that, as well. It’s almost quieting and comforting rather than being constantly in the chaos of limerence. We’ll both walk through this dear Norma, together, hand in hand.
Dear Adam:
Thank you for being so nice. Your sweet comments warm my heart.
Keeping on the theme:
“Every Little Thing She Does Is Magic ” – The Police
https://youtu.be/aENX1Sf3fgQ?si=o9tIgbnkLBf3GSNq
Here’s one for when you make the transition and seemingly inevitable Self-loathing that follows.
“I Hate Myself for Loving You” – Joan Jett
https://youtu.be/bpNw7jYkbVc?si=C6THQ0n0LwGwFgQx
To L.E.:
I was actually listening to that song by The Police earlier when I realized how much I was improving.
I used to feel that way about LO. Now, not so much.
I was just remembering a lovely comment that I got from a girlfriend a while back when I was complaining about LO.
She listened patiently, and then said, “Who wants a friend who acts like that?”
So simple, yet so true. That one comment has helped me tremendously as I work my way out of this madness.
Dear Norma I agree with your friend. And I am grateful to have a friend like you help me navigate my last bit of lingering limerence. And I hope I’ve helped too.
Now on to cooking fish sticks for our son and I. No thanks on the tartar sauce. 🤢 Next worse thing to mayo. I prefer sarachi sauce for my fish sticks.
To Adam:
I don’t like tartar sauce, either. I have never tried sriracha sauce. Looks scary.
I hope you had a pleasant dinner with your son.
One of the few upsides of limerence is finding a kindly friend on a message board.
Dr. L,
It’s me again. No surprises, really – your video “Don’t Fight It” has slid into sixth spot, and you know I just have to chime in whenever a noted video shifts position.
I’ve finally gotten around to watching said video. One of your best yet. You come across as calm, reasonable, compassionate. The information you present is super-accessible. I even enjoyed the “hackneyed opinions” at the end.
Either your communication style is becoming clearer, or my brain is becoming less foggy. Or both. 🙂
I’m participating in a community forum that’s supposed to be exclusively for gay men at the moment. Although 90% of the membership is openly heterosexual. Which is odd. And the comments section is absolutely hilarious.
Here’s a little taste:
“I’d like to address this comment specifically to the women-who-think-emerald-green-is-an-awesome-colour community.”
“I’d like to address this comment to the men-who-eat-potato-chips community”
“I’d like to address this comment to the women-who-won’t-let-their-husbands-eat-potato-chips community.”
“I’d like to address this comment personally to the men-who-feel-aggrieved-their-wives-won’t-let-them-eat-potato-chips community.”
“This question is reserved solely for the people-who-don’t-know-what-potato-chips-are community.”
Thank goodness one doesn’t have to negotiate such rapids at LwL! 🤣🤣😜
But we need to know where everyone stands on potato chips, fish sticks (are they what we in the UK call fish fingers?), tartare sauce and sriracha sauce. For me – yes to all of those things.
All of those together?? Sriracha and tartare sounds a bit funky in combination.
Maybe alternating rather than mixed?
As its world-wide fame goes, is your “fish & chip” considered regular, normal meal like hamburger here? Do you British make your own variety of “fish & chip” at home?
I had them maybe 3 times altogether in my life. I like taste of fried chips for just a little bit, since fried stuff tend to ruin other savory dishes for me….
The English fish and chip chains are really struggling, I read. The culture of ‘loaded fries’ and other international snacks getting more popular, plus the inflated price of cod, mean a lot of the chip shops are having to diversify their products.
I’m not that surprised. I’ve always found the greasy battered fish and chips a bit of a waste of calories. It is quite funny but also a little tragic that it’s the food the English are best known for.
Yep, greasy fried Fish & Chip, plain, tasteless steamed green beans, “Gin & Tonic” are known for English, for their rainy and dreary long winter? They stuck inside pubs, mumbling loads of purple verses and heartbreaking, soul ruinous plays…
Since the invention “Fish & Chip”, Gin & Tonic”, there wasn’t 2nd Shakespeare appeared, right? Oscar Wilde was ruined after he graduated from Oxford and lived in London…
Food has a great impact in one’s body, mind, and soul… I’ll stick to my homemade Earthen (regional) Three Fragrance and hot pots… drink a bit of Rice 🌾 liquor. 😀
Snow,
We don’t eat fish & chips as regularly as we have burgers. It’s just an occasional takeaway. And something we have at the seaside. We wouldn’t make proper fish & chips at home. We might have a piece of breaded fish from the supermarket and have it with oven chips, but that’s a completely different meal. Proper fish & chips is deep fried, and the chips are thicker and softer than fries, and best eaten with lots of vinegar.
LaR, “The English fish and chip chains…” No, you have already got this wrong. Fish & chips don’t come from chain shops. Each fish & chip shop (called a chippy) is an independent, small business.
Admittedly, a chain of fish & chip shops does exist, but I don’t know anyone who’s been there and it’s the wrong way to eat fish & chips. You need to go to a chippy.
Alternatively you can have fish & chips in a pub that serves food or a gastropub, and that is ok.
You are right Cloud. The best fish and chips can be found by the seaside where the fish is freshly caught.
I admire how you didn’t retort on Snow’s disparaging remarks about English cuisine and pub traditions which are held dear.
I will also show grace.
Just saying that the English / British folks love different foods from other countries and cultures.
London is ranked the Number 1 city globally for cuisine diversity. No other city comes close.
As for a G&T ? Yes please. Make mine a double.
Imho, Cloud
Please make mine a double G&T too. And a generous 🐠🎣&🍟🍟. Not from a ‘chain’
Ah, Englishness 😁
Cloud,
Yeah I did get the ‘chains’ bit wrong (in my town, the fish and chips scene is actually dominated by a couple of chains, but I know it is not so everywhere). But the point does still stand – I’ve read that fish and chips is diminishing in popularity and the chippies are having to diversify.
Weird how things are going here at the moment.
Imho,
I could murder a G&T!
(I just tried out an expression, did I get it right?)
How is it going with the decision on holiday greetings?;)
“I admire how you didn’t retort on Snow’s disparaging remarks about English cuisine and pub traditions which are held dear.”
I’m not sure what there is to defend! There are plenty of chefs serving traditional British food using fresh quality ingredients prepared to an extremely high level. But there’s much more bland, tasteless, careless rubbish. If you want to go for a meal out without going somewhere really special and expensive, you’re better off going for pretty much any other cuisine, not British. And at home day-to-day most of us cook easy versions of non-British food (a curry or a stir fry or some pasta for example) far more than anything traditionally British. We might do a British roast dinner at the weekend but that’s it. I can’t imagine living on only traditional British food. Maybe our grandparents’ generation did.
Hi Mila, yes you are correct and how ironic I genuinely used this expression yesterday ! 🤣 😂
And no change from last check-in point here. Sigh ! Let’s see.
Cloud, agree. keeping the best traditions with quality ingredients and embracing other cuisines is the way to go for any culture in my view. I love variety and trying new things.
Imho,
well, still time to decide or just let time run its course and do nothing
… I actually think this would be a great blog post, Dr L;)
Holiday greetings (Christmas and new year in a double fisting, no, double challenge)and the temptation to send them to LO,
I think many of us cannot decide if it’s the decent thing to do and if it would single out LO as special to be ignored while everyone else gets greetings, if it’s a sign of being over the mess, or if we are deluding ourselves and it’s an excuse to renew contact and dopamine hits.
I genuinely think it could be both separately, or even a bit of both at the same time (like it would be a normal decent gesture and it would provoke questions/surprise/resentment if one wouldn’t write, but at the same time it would be a guilty pleasure/ inducing another round of limerence).
I don’t have that problem
much because not limerent and I’m anyway in contact with my last LO, so of course I’ll send some holiday greetings to the family, nothing too personal.
But I can imagine the indecision if there’s some NC going on that would be broken.
Hi Mila,
Yes this dilemma would be a very timely blog post for many I expect.
It is that time of year that triggers all sorts of emotions.
If Dr.L was taking a role in my consideration process I am fairly sure he would be urging to stay NC.
Self-preservation is probably more important than being civil or doing the decent gesture, as you nicely call it.
I actually have another new big issue that my organisation may place me very close to where my LO lives sometime next year!
It is unconfirmed but is very unsettling.
Hi Imho,
„I actually have another new big issue that my organisation may place me very close to where my LO lives sometime next year!
It is unconfirmed but is very unsettling.“
Sorry to ask a few questions but I don’t get the picture at the moment-Do you mean a one-time- event or permanently? And it’s in another country , no? I seem to remember LO living in another country. Also, that he left your organization, meaning that you wouldn’t work with him, but there would be the question of social contact?
It is unsettling, I agree! But maybe it helps to recognize that it’s still only a placement, everything else is under your control, and there are many scenarios how this could pan out, and a lot of them are positive or at least not very dramatic. Also, no need to be anxious about it now since nothing is confirmed!
Concentrate on Christmas cookies and caroling or what’s it called.
Mila, your memory is correct on every count. It would be a short term placement and any contact would be social.
it’s far from certain so it’s pushed to the edges of my mind, to prevent me getting into an emotional turmoil unnecessarily ( I have done way more of that than is healthy the last couple of years ! )
Thank you for the reminder to enjoy the best of this season and also to try to stay fit and healthy, as there is a lot of sickness around.
If you ask for fish and chips in the US, depending on where you ask, you are more than likely going to get the UK equivalent of fish sticks/fingers and chips or waffle fries, as we call them here. What we call (potato) chips, you call crisps, which are usually not eaten together in the US. We just stole your dish from you English.
So to the English, are they still English Muffins or just muffins?
Also if the thought of us Americans pouring “gravy” (and I use the term lightly because it’s not gravy it’s paper mache ) on what we call “biscuits” disgusting; I agree with you.
Yes, English muffins are a kind of dense bread roll shaped like a flat cylinder. I don’t know why they’re called that except that’s what it says on the packet in the supermarket. A muffin is a big cupcake containing chocolate chips where the top spills over the paper, hence “muffin top” describing the effect you get if your trousers are too tight for your beer belly. (By trousers I mean pants). (Pants for us are underpants, and suspenders are a belt ladies wear to hold up their stockings). (We all think “double fisting” is VERY rude, although we’ve all started using it now anyway).
Double fisting sounds very—risque to me. How is that term being used?
I have been told that in the US it means having two drinks on the go at once, one in each hand.
Americans – is it really perfectly clean and innocent?
I don’t go out to bars, so I wouldn’t know. But it sounds like a term I wouldn’t want to use unless I’m making a dirty joke. 😉
Serial,
That is the best answer yet!
Cloud,
I’m tempted to add a few thoughts, but I’d like to protect your innocence!
But if you’re willing to drop your standards, try googling it!
NO! Don’t google that! Lol!
American factory produced gravy is so boring and hackneyed… where is your “indulged” individuality and creativity in cuisines? I liked the breakfast fried, mushy potato sticks, though.
My stomach has a hard time digesting fried food, except one fried dish that was the top of my childhood dishes that are made of friend eggplant, potato and green Pepper; we call it, “Regional Three Fragrance” — Di San Xian. You use all fresh ingredients (can add whatever other spices each individual prefers), period! 😝
I can make it with my eyes closed but only eat it once every a few years. It’s very savory and rich, eating it too much would make it a junk food as well and ruin my appetite for other savory dishes. 😋
https://youtu.be/YoKJUkCFaM0?si=GbRgQShOBtIMfwYY — Di San Xian
That looks delicious!
I’m going to make Di San Xian more during the winter break…
One can’t get addicted to savory food — takes too much time and effort to produce! By the time you finish cooking them, a purple ☯️ prose could be dripping through the 🥔 & 🍆 & 🫑 pieces!
I have only issue with what Americans (specifically Southern Americans) call white or sausage gravy. It’s just, awful. Doesn’t look edible and it’s texture triggers my gag reflex. And Southern American put it on mashed potatoes, biscuits, fried chicken and chicken fried steak. But then these are same Americans that eat calf fries and lamb fries. And no, I don’t want to explain it. Let google have a go at it.
Double fisting is a saying for having a drink in each hand. Usually in reference to alcoholic drinks. Then there’s ….
Hey now I have four pairs of suspenders I wear regularly and I don’t wear stockings. Or do I?
I’m kind of surprised that English muffins are the same there as in the US. Always prefer my breakfast sandwiches on English muffins over American biscuits. But that’s the Yankee in me. There are a lot of southern foods that I just can’t like or at the very least pick over something else I prefer.
Basically, as comedian Jim Gaffigan said, “muffins are just bald cupcakes.” Since the vast majority of mass produced commercial muffins aren’t any healthier than a cupcake. Cupcakes are just honest about what they are. If you want an actual healthy muffin, it pretty much has to be homemade.
Sooooo….
I found out what’s really going on the gay community forum I visit. Apparently, 90% of the posters aren’t real people. Apparently, we were recently infiltrated by an army of AI robots. That’s why “people” keep posting ridiculous-sounding questions addressed to imaginary communities and non-existent minorities.
So, if anyone got excited about the “men-who-eat-potato-chips community”, (I’m mainly looking at you MJ and Adam), I do apologise. It is with great sadness that I must inform you it’s not a thriving new subculture. You can’t join. Eating potato chips is just a mundane human activity, and doesn’t entitle you to membership of some special group. You’re not a special class of human even if you do enjoy the odd snack.
And if you’re English or Irish, “potato chips” is what Aussies and Americans call “crisps” – “crisps”, as in literal junk food seasoned with a hefty dose of salt. What did y’all think we were talking about? 🤣😁😲
Dr. L, you’ll be glad to know your job is going to be safe for a long, long time. Turns out AI robots give terrible relationship advice. Even worse, they’re often actively rude, offensive, and condescending to the human subjects they’re pretending to help. Basically, the robots throw a tantrum anytime they’re contradicted, or someone (i.e. an actual human being) gives a candid response to some inane inquiry. 😉
“I found out what’s really going on the gay community forum I visit. Apparently, 90% of the posters aren’t real people.”
Sammy Sams
While I can’t speak for my Brother, I’ll admit I like potato chips.. 😆
As for your fake posters, that should give you incentive to come around here more often. We’re more fun anyway and at least you know we’re real people..
I found this site through Pinterest and I have been having fun with it. You type in anything you want and it is suppose to translate it to drunk talk. And holy hell this one …. I was “is this what my brother sounds like drunk talking about LO?” 🙂
Original text:
“I mean I want to say something to her. But what if she says no? I don’t know if I can take that. I mean I know she’s out of my league and all. But wow what a woman!”
Translation:
“I wanna, like, tell her stuff, ya know? But dude, what if she, like, totally barfs at the idea? My brain can’t even… I mean, I know she’s, like, an intergalactic supermodel and I’m just… me. But, holy chimichangas, that’s one spicy señorita! Wooooo!”
I’m still laughing at it.
It sounds quite ambitious for a really drunk guy. „Intergalactic“?“chimichangas“? Wow.
“But, holy chimichangas, that’s one spicy señorita.”
Brother Adam,
That sounds about right. 😂😂
Although I probably don’t have to have a drop of liquor in me to sing her praises. I think about all I would say different instead of spicy señorita would be “thats one rubia caliente” (Hot Blonde) or “guerita hermosa” (Beautiful blonde) 😂😂
Mila
I don’t usually have too much difficult of a time enunciating when I talk, I have more issues with WHAT I am willing to say. As in, a drunk man’s words are a sober man’s thoughts. Let’s hope I don’t embarrass myself at the company Christmas party this Saturday. I guess, more importantly, I don’t embarrass Momma.
MJ
I just like how the site just assumed I was talking about a Latina. That’s what made me think of you. I know how you like your Latinas brother. 🙂
“I know how you like your Latinas”
Adam
Oh man, like? More like adore.. 😂
I was walking in to work tonight with my other Latina Lady Friend and she got a phone call she had to take. She already has a heavy accent when she speaks english but then she started speaking in Spanish. It was so sexy and like a thousand beautiful thoughts of her just all came to me. Like I didn’t even know half of what she was saying, but it all sounded so nice. I could listen to her talk like that to me all day and it would never get old. No wonder LO drove me up a wall when I found out she was bi-lingual..
😆😆
“I don’t usually have too much difficult of a time enunciating when I talk, I have more issues with WHAT I am willing to say. ”
You are right, that’s unfortunately true for myself too. But that rarely happens anymore (as I get older I seem to get more sensitive to alcohol’s negative side effects and just don’t drink alcohol most of the time).
Isn’t it kind of a must to embarrass oneself at office Christmas parties? So you would just keep up worldwide traditions;)
MJ
If there is one thing I’ve learned moving from Yankee territory to the South is that if I am at the grocery store on some mundane Saturday morning and I hear the click clack against a tile floor over on the next aisle, when I turn that corner I’m 99.9% sure it is going to be a Latina woman in high heels dressed to the nines just to do grocery shopping. And I love em for that. 😉
I agree with you on Spanish. But it is the way women speak it as compared to men that makes it stand out. I don’t know a lick of Spanish but I could listen to a Latina woman speak it all day. I think it is a REALLY good thing that unlike most people in this state that are bi-ligual, that LO wasn’t.
Mila
I’m sure I will keep up the worldwide traditions. Now I may not be looking forward to if Momma is awake Sunday morning when I get up for church so she can remind me of all the sins I need to confess from the previous night before I leave home. 🙂
Norma,
for some reason I cannot find our conversation anymore. But I remember your guinea pig now! Actually, your chinchillas sound fun.
There’s no way your sister could join you on Christmas? But I know how complicated Christmas and families are… maybe it will be nice to stay at home instead of rushing off to another family part every day of the holidays, just to get into fights😂(not that it’s always like this for me, it’s mostly nice, but Christmas time does have its tensions, and I see it in other families too).
To Mila:
No, my sister hosts her own dinner at her house. I am not well enough to go, nor am I well enough to host at my own home.
It’s fine, though.
Hi Norma,
I see! Well, it sounds cosy and interesting with your pets. Just make sure the food is nice:)!
To Mila:
All vegetarian for the animals! Pellets and maybe some carrot.
My new guinea pig, Francis, exhibits a fun behavior which is called “popcorning.” You can look it up if you’re interested. Some guinea pigs do it, some don’t.
He gets very excited about hay, for some reason. When I give him a big handful of hay, he jumps a few times before he eats it.
Pretty funny. Guinea pigs have very short legs and can’t jump very well. Hence the popcorning is hilarious to watch.
Guinea pigs are so funny! We sometimes look after some friends’ ones. It’s fun watching all their different personalities and how they interact with each other.
Hi Norma,
I looked up popcorning!
Our very first guinea pig when I was a kid (it belonged to my sister) did that, I just didn’t know it’s called popcorning (back then it wasn’t called anything, probably..).
I think my guinea pig didn’t do it. But they were both very lively and amiable animals.
G’day Coffeehouse and Dr. L,
Okay. Today I’d like to share what I’ve learned from briefly interacting with AI. The most important thing I’ve learned is that Dr. L is definitely not AI! (Teika must be so relieved). 😜
If Dr. L were AI, he’d have some predetermined position on limerence such as “limerence is good” or “limerence is bad”, and then he’d absolutely run that argument into the ground until people don’t want to talk to him anymore. This is what bots have been doing on one of the online communities I frequent. (Not regarding limerence, but regarding three billion other highly sensitive topics).
Here’s the funny thing – the bots produce exceptionally logical arguments for whatever they supposedly “believe”, and initially people are sucked into heated arguments. For the last few days, over and over again, I’ve been telling my beloved gay brothers to chill out – there is absolutely no point giving precious mental and emotional energy to someone/something that isn’t even real.
How do I know Dr. L isn’t a bot? Well, Dr. L doesn’t behave like the bots do. Dr. L lets people make up their own minds about limerence. Of course, he’s available to help people who truly want/need help e.g. the emergency deprogramming course. But he’s not going to impose help on anyone who doesn’t want help. Dr. L admits limerence can be distressing to some people at some times. However, he also admits limerence can have upsides such as creativity or even (when mutual) successful courtship. This is how I know Dr. L is a human being and not a bot – he has an extremely nuanced take on things, and he doesn’t force his opinions on other people. He also doesn’t shame/attack people for not agreeing with him.
I’ve been thinking a lot about readers who see limerence primarily as a positive experience. I’ve also been thinking about fence-sitting readers who want someone to “talk them down from their limerence impulses”. Finally, I’ve been thinking about readers who experience limerence as something very dark and invasive, readers who don’t really want to go through that experience again.
One really interesting thing about the phrase “living with limerence” is that is can be read at least two ways. Some people understand limerence mainly as those euphoric early highs, so they think LwL is a place to come and discuss their giddy elation/romantic aspirations, and feel crushed to find a bunch of wet blankets shouting them down. Other people understand limerence more as the third and fourth stages of limerence, i.e. addiction and/or dependency, and they can’t wait to be free of something that has become a drain on their ability to be happy.
I would like to explain something that most people still seem to miss. To me, it does seem like limerence is early-stage romantic love – a perfectly natural occurrence. However, this early-stage romantic love comes with a caveat – a caveat built into it by Mother Nature, no less! The caveat is this: the experience of being madly in love almost always turns bad when healthy bonding isn’t possible. When limerence turns bad, people experience something called lovesickness. (Lovesickness is probably best defined as stages three and four of limerence).
What Dr. L actually does, apart from writing and blogging and making videos, is Dr. L specialises in helping people stuck in lovesickness. For some people, “living with limerence” might mean “living with euphoric highs and exciting romantic hopes for the future”. However, for a sizeable number of people, the people Dr. L generally helps, “living with limerence” means “living with lovesickness” or “living with once-gratifying limerence that has somehow turned bad”.
I hope the above tactfully explains why readers don’t always get the responses they want from other readers at LwL.
Having spent time with bots recently, I’ve learned something about myself. I’ve learned my natural speaking and writing style can easily be mistaken for AI. I’m sorry that some or all of my posts might sound like AI. I assure you I’m not an AI bot and I never rely on AI to compose my comments. I am annoyed by the rise of AI, to be honest. I feel like AI bots have stolen what I thought was my hitherto inimitable and naturally very logical personality! But I’d like to think I have a warmth and a grace and a genuine sense of humour that AI bots lack. 😜
Limerent Emeritus, if you’re reading this, I’ve worked out which former LwLer is Fenna. Of course, I won’t be spilling the beans – some secrets are not mine to tell. But yes, she’s a lovely woman who inspires others to live with integrity. 😉
I just spent almost two hours with LO and I am happy to report that I was bored.
He talked non-stop about himself and his fancy high-end acquaintances, and I felt a little bit intimidated and a little bit annoyed. It’s not as if I couldn’t have gotten a word in edgewise, but it would have been more of an effort than I felt up to making. I was tired and just let him talk.
I wondered what on earth I would do if I found myself in a roomful of the people LO holds in such high esteem? Ugh. We really have nothing in common. While I admire the creative people LO hangs around with, I don’t understand how their minds work.
I am glad I spent this time with him because it helps me with my limerence recovery. When I am away from LO for too long, I start idealizing him more.
He spent a fair amount of time talking about his house and his disappointment in his real estate agents. I hate seeing him so angry, but I also don’t want to listen to that anger.
It’s more pleasant to listen to him enthuse about decorating, because that at least is something he enjoys. On the other hand, when he starts discussing the minutiae of fabrics and colors, my brain just turns into a pile of sawdust, because I am not really that interested.
👏 Good progress!
To Miss Cloud:
A good limerence killer is listening to LO talk about thread-count.
Dear Norma I’m so happy to see you might see him as I do. I am very angry at the way he treats you. I know my co-worker say that about LO was manipulating me and it angers me. I get where you are at. But when men do it to a lady it just makes me grrrr. Know I’m always here for you Miss Morma. 🙂
Dear Sweet Adam:
Thank you for your kind words. I don’t think LO is trying to be unkind, I think he’s just oblivious.
I have never felt he was trying to manipulate me. One time, I asked him if he was ghosting me because he hadn’t answered my text messages. He looked genuinely bewildered and checked his phone. Turns out he had written me a message but it hadn’t sent. I could tell by his reaction that it wouldn’t occur to him to do such a thing–probably because he isn’t engaged enough with me in the first place.
LO seemed irritable yesterday–his house has been on the market for several months and he is not happy with the agents he is using. So that is always top of mind for him. For him to be able to get out of his own head and enjoy my company is difficult, and I have given up hoping he will do that.
Since he was so cranky, I got him talking about “safe” things I know he enjoys because I simply am not deft enough to navigate conversational minefields.
There have been times when I’ve intellectually considered that LO enjoyed and reveled in the attention I gave her. But limerent me tells me “no”. I dunno. I don’t think your LO is a bad man in general. It’s just the way he is so self centered and doesn’t consider your feelings and what you might want to say.
I know I’m a younger generation than you. But my father, by word and example, taught me how to interact with women. And I guess it burns me that so many men don’t know or don’t care to. Especially you.
One of my favorite moments in Key Largo is when Rocco makes Gaye sing for a drink and she does when doesn’t give it to her Frank walks around the bar and makes one for her and gives it to her and gets slapped around for it. Love that moment. A true gentleman. What I aspire to be. I don’t think they make men like they use to.
To Adam:
Funny you would mention “Key Largo.” I just rewatched it recently. That sequence does not stand out in my mind, although I vaguely remember it.
I think LO is self-centered but not mean-spirited. He’s irritable but not hostile. His personality is overwhelming to me, and it’s particularly overwhelming when he’s angry about something. Better to let him enthuse about flooring, even though it doesn’t particularly interest me.
Dearest Norma, Humphrey Bogart plays one of the truest gentlemen in almost all his roles as an actor and Key Largo is easily my favorite. But that’s also thanks to Edward G Robinson and Lauren Bacall and the other cast. But damn that don’t make movies like that any more. Maybe someday, Momma, you and I can get some popcorn or twizzlers together and watch it.
To Adam:
You must like Film Noir.
No, they don’t make movies like that anymore.
There is another website that I post on, where they have a Saturday night movie. Everybody watches on their own devices, then they discuss on the website. I participate occasionally.
Oh don’t get me on 50’s science fiction movies. I grew up on those; Them!, Beast From 20,000 Fathoms, 1 Million Miles To Earth, Godzilla, King Kong, etc. I love old movies. It’s why I like the style Sin City. It maybe a bit graghic but it’s done a film noir tone.
https://youtu.be/MnMZeDmfgmU?si=N-wAROH9kOqO3bp6
XX [A white curtain turning in an open window]
Charles Reznikoff
A white curtain turning in an open window.
A swan, dipping a white neck in the trees’ shadow,
Hardly beating the water with golden feet.
Sorrow before her
Was gone like noise from a street,
Snow falling.
******
It’s heavily snowing since last night, the first big winter snowstorm here, so pretty to watch from a warm, cozy room after a “hot spring” dream…
I was just shocked to read that Rob Reiner and his wife were murdered today by their 32 year-old son.
Even though this isn’t about me, I was particularly shaken up because the boy who killed them is the exact same age as my own (girl) twins, who repeatedly threatened to kill me when they were teenagers. I half-expected them to follow through.
I wondered if I didn’t do enough to get my kids mental health help at the time–we were all in therapy and my kids were on psych meds. They are both decent functioning 32-year-olds now.
Very surprised and saddened to learn that even people who can pay for the best treatment still can’t prevent tragedy.
That must have left you pretty shaken. Big hugs.
To Miss Cloud:
Thank you. I know this isn’t about me.
Rob Reiner is a national treasure in this country.
I just saw the new “Spinal Tap” movie the night before he was killed and I was thinking about him.
What a terrible loss.
Definitely a national treasure. His TV series “All In The Family” from the 1970’s was great also, it offers so many lessons for today — family conflicts, racial tensions — presented with humor and while respecting everyone’s humanity, especially of the underclass.
Hope we all remember these lessons, which we are in such danger of losing today.
Yes, I’m still processing this. 🙁 I loved him in All in the Family and all the nuances that show put in front of us—and lessons that still are relevant 50 years later. I watched it in the 2010’s and realized we’re still having a lot of the same arguments. Then occasionally saw his political comments on Twitter back when it was still a halfway decent social media, and realized the Meathead was alive and well, and that was great. 🙂 And recently he did a documentary that included someone on the Holy Post, who had him on an episode to talk with him about it. Reiner was Jewish but said he loves the teachings of Christ, and he and the host had a wonderful conversation about that.
And don’t worry about this conversation not being “about you.” This is LWL—the conversation is about everybody here.
To Serial:
Well, I felt awkward appearing to whine that Rob Reiner’s murder was about me. Rather than mourn his death, my first thoughts were horrible flash-backs to what I had experienced with my own children, who are exactly the same age as the perpetrator, almost to the day.
Then I started to feel guilty because I was having a sensation of actual relief about my parenting. The thought came to me that if Rob Reiner could not do anything with his own son, then maybe I didn’t do too bad with my own kids, even though I had much less to work with in terms of resources. A completely unfair comparison.
It’s galling to me that someone else’s death could make me feel better about myself. It doesn’t feel right.
I never actually saw “All in the Family,” but am a huge fan of Reiner’s movies. As I mentioned earlier, I JUST saw the new Spinal Tap sequel the night before he died. It was amazing to see all those characters back together, forty years after the original movie.
He directed “When Harry Met Sally” and “A Few Good Men.” What else do you need to know? 🙂
That should be the catch phrase for this site. “You can’t handle the truth!” 🙂
To Marcia:
Alternate catch phrase: “These go to eleven.”
How about “she’s just not that into you!”.
Nothing to do with the late Rob Reiner, but an apt movie alternative catchphrase for this site.
Or, “I’ll have what she’s having!” perhaps in the hope that ordering the right sandwich could produce the desired result in LO?
To ND:
“Alternate catch phrase: “These go to eleven.””
Love that movie.
Marty DiBergi: Let’s talk about your reviews a little bit. Regarding Intravenus de Milo – “This tasteless cover is a good indication of the lack of musical invention within. The musical growth rate of this band cannot even be charted. They are treading water in a sea of retarded sexuality and bad poetry.”
Nigel Tufnel: That’s… that’s nitpicking, isn’t it?
🙂
ND:
“Or, “I’ll have what she’s having!” perhaps in the hope that ordering the right sandwich could produce the desired result in LO?”
No. The LO would have to produce that result in us. 🙂
To Marcia:
Fabulous movie. I just rewatched it Saturday, followed by the new Spinal Tap movie, which brings back the hilarious Stonehenge monument from the first movie.
The very last frame of the new movie features Rob Reiner frantically attempting to perform the Heimlich Maneuver on the latest of Spinal Tap’s hapless drummers.
To Marcia:
I would settle for LO producing the same result in me, although the reverse would be preferable.
To ND:
“followed by the new Spinal Tap movie, which brings back the hilarious Stonehenge monument from the first movie.”
I haven’t seen the new one. I’m almost afraid to.
“The very last frame of the new movie features Rob Reiner frantically attempting to perform the Heimlich Maneuver on the latest of Spinal Tap’s hapless drummers.”
Yes! Because they’ve lost so many drummers. 🙂
“I would settle for LO producing the same result in me, although the reverse would be preferable.”
To be honest, you don’t really want that result. She is faking her way through it. That’s the whole point. Because he’s convinced no woman has done that with him and he could tell if she had.
To Marcia:
I wouldn’t be afraid to watch the second one. Of course, now that Marty DeBurgi is no longer with us, it might seem weird. It’s probably less cringey than the first one.
I enjoyed it tremendously. So fun to see all the members of Spinal Tap forty years later, with a new young drummer, of course, plus appearances from Paul McCartney and Elton John.
There are photos of Reiner and his family at the Spinal Tap premiere–it was just this past September.
Point taken about the sandwich–just remembering that it was a wonderful sequence.
ND:
“I wouldn’t be afraid to watch the second one. ”
I’ll have to watch it.
“Point taken about the sandwich–just remembering that it was a wonderful sequence.”
To be honest, it’s my least favorite scene in the movie. It feels kind of over the top and silly and thrown in to develop buzz about the movie. But the rest of it has such funny and incisive writing about men and women and friendship. And of course it concludes they can’t be friends.
To Marcia:
I do recommend you see the second one. There’s nothing terribly offensive, and it’s fun to see how they continue the story.
I did notice that Fred Willard has died since the first movie, although his part wasn’t that necessary to the plot. I guess you just need the four main characters to tell the story.
I had another dream about LO last night. I’ve really been feeling free and level-headed for the past few weeks, but I’m feeling vulnerable this morning. Those siren feelings of longing are so persuasive. Last week was really busy with projects, and when projects finish I often have a sense of emptiness and crash into depression. I think my brain is using limerence as a coping mechanism. I’m hoping the work I’m doing today will give me a sense of achievement which I think will get me back on the straight and narrow. Send strength please.
Hi Cloud,
sending you lots of strength! You are already as clearsighted as to see where this low phase is coming from, that’s so good. Limerence is such a mood-regulating dopamine- promising fake..
Me, I don’t put that much importance on dreams, by the way. It’s just my subconscious picking up threads here and there, of course LO will feature here and there, it doesn’t have to have a special meaning apart from mixing up different feelings, memories and faces.
But I understand that it could affect the mood for a few hours.
I hope your work day will be good and fulfilling and erase the bad feeling about the dream.
Thank you. x
Mila and Norma, I agree that dreams don’t tell us anything. But they do affect our mood! I’m determined to pull through this one as quickly as I can. Thank you for your encouraging words.
To Miss Cloud:
I find that when I have a vivid dream about LO, I don’t like the way I feel when I wake up. I am invariably displeased about the dream, and I find the sooner I get wrapped up in other activities, the better.
To Miss Cloud:
I too get very thrown off by my dreams, although I don’t attach much importance to them.
They affect my mood a great deal when I first wake up.
Sending you strength and love.
Dear Cloud,
Sending you strength.
☁️,
“I think my brain is using limerence as a coping mechanism“.
Based on Jung’s dream theory, whatever one’s waking hour brain tries to push away, it will appear in one’s dreams, just to balance extremes or give the opposite a voice in your Unconscious.
Remember DrL’s YT “Don’t Fight it” during our waking hours, but acknowledging LE and watch it. Or, it would “haunt” us in our dreams in whatever forms.
I have had two “Hot, Hot Spring” (gratifying erotic/sexual) dreams two nights in a roll during the snowstorm, with my uninhibited INFP Sis appeared in last night (Ohlala….). I guess I need to think about/imagine hot dates often when awake… Afterwards I was/am in a pretty good mood despite some bureaucratic issues in my reality that are giving me headache.
My Unconscious more than often helped me… 😀
Thank you for your wisdom. Yes, there’s definitely a balance to be had! Trying to deny and push away ones feelings can just bottle things up unhealthily. Acknowledging they’re there, seeing that they’re unhelpful, understanding where they came from and coming up with a strategy to lessen their impact is more helpful. I think I’m ok now. A bit shaken from how easily I can fall back into the limerence mindset without even seeing him in person but I feel as though I’ve got my rational brain back and I’m not wallowing or ruminating. I’m definitely seeing him in a few days so I need to get my armour on.
Hi Cloud,
I think it would be worth looking more at what exactly is happening with LO in your dreams, and what messages that might be carrying, a bit like Snow says. Obviously, I 💯 appreciate you may not want to do that here! When I analysed some vivid dreams earlier this year (with help from LwL pals), it changed my interpretation of them, which led me to a place where I could shift in a good direction with respect to mindset about the LE.
It’s a rhetorical question and I am not trying to prod – but what do these dreams really tell you??
I think the dream means there will be seven years of plenty followed by seven years of famine so we should stock up. 😝
Joking aside, nothing untoward happened in the dream, if you must know! But like in good films, sneaking sideways glances at each other has much greater potency than thrashing about leaving nothing to the imagination. I think limerence for me is about a yearning for connection rather than physical intimacy.
Lol very good, Miss Cloud!
For actual decades, I used to dream of my lifelong biggest crush/LO. She still pops up in a dream occasionally and it has been 25 years. Sigh.
What all the dreams had in common was her unreachability – and it was always ‘narrowly unreachable’. Different scenarios, like the doors of an elevator sliding shut, or sat a couple of tables away in a crowded room. Your point about stealing furtive glances reminded me of that.
With present day LO, dreams are different – her dream status can vary between unreachable, subtly reachable and fully reachable. I think this reflects the fact I have never established, either way, in my mind whether she could be ‘reached in that way’ – but meshed with the fact that she is reachable as a friend.
Marcia is not my LO, why did she keep sneaking into my dreams, sharing my dorm and even my dating bedroom? 🙄
I want my privacy for my dreams! 🤭
There was a post of Camilla George somewhere, answering to my question about living with limerence.
I appreciated that post very much but cannot find it now.
I think it shows that limerence can pan out so differently for everyone, depending on what kind of persons the limerent and the LO are, the situation, the connection etc.
I was wondering, Camilla George, if this kind of calm and acceptance is only possible because you are sure of some kind of reciprocation, or if it is not depending on LO reciprocation at all anymore?
To Mila:
I think the post you want is on the thread called “The Biggest Limerence Problems.”
Thank you Norma,
I found it and a post of LaR I hadn’t seen!
I‘m a bit hopeless at the navigation of this site, I‘m afraid.
Sorry, I am still trying to process the Rob Reiner murder, which feels personal to me because of my history with my violent twins. I am close to Reiner’s age and my twins are exactly the same age as Reiner’s son.
I was pretty upset last night and tried to call my best girlfriend, but she wasn’t available. Against my better judgment, I texted LO.
He was pleasant, but clueless.
He couldn’t understand why I was upset. He said, “You’re perfectly safe.” I could not convey to him that I was re-living painful memories from years ago. Of course I am perfectly safe. I tried to explain this and just dug myself a deeper hole.
He then said, “Have they threatened you recently?” No, of course not. They’re living out of state, and I certainly do not expect any problems from them currently. Happily, they have outgrown whatever was bothering them years ago. Thankfully they do NOT have substance abuse problems, that I know of, and are living productive lives.
LO and I have had long discussions about my children and their history. I had hoped he’d understand.
Texting is not the best medium for communicating.
A good reminder why LO is maybe not the best person to turn to in hopes of being understood. My first instinct NOT to text him was the correct one.
Wow! It’s not as though it was at all complicated explaining why you were upset. It reminded you of your family; it didn’t get you worried about the same thing happening to you.
Don’t feel bad for texting him. Hopefully soon you’ll be able to laugh at his ineptitude at empathy.
To Miss Cloud:
He’s pretty derpy.
Ugh, I just remembered why I don’t have too much interaction with my sister. I love her dearly, but she has a tendency to talk down to me.
I e-mailed her and told her about my conversation with LO about the Reiner murders. She was critical of me and said she would NEVER bring up such a topic with a man who has no children. She said it was a waste of time and I should not have done it.
Well, okay, point taken, but wouldn’t it be kinder for her to empathize with the feelings of the person who is speaking to her, rather than pointing out to me why I am wrong?
“Well, okay, point taken, but wouldn’t it be kinder for her to empathize with the feelings of the person who is speaking to her, rather than pointing out to me why I am wrong?”
I don’t think it matters if he has children or not. I think it was a waste of time to bring it up with your LO because he’s proven to have little empathy. It’s like going to the well, but the well is dry.
And, honestly, if your sister talks down to you, I wouldn’t bring it up with her, either. I have a family member like that. I avoid emotional topics. There’s no point.
To Marcia:
Thank you for your reply. You’re right. I should have known better.
It took me several years to finally accept what this family member could or would offer. I wish we had a different relationship, but that’s not going to happen. With some people, it’s best to reduce expectations. Much harder to do with an LO.
To Marcia:
Your wise words are really helping me. Thank you so much.
Brother, I watched this YouTube short where teenage to grown daughters jump to hug/cuddle with their fathers (whether it’s scripted or not) and my poor dumbass cried. I wonder sometimes if LOs daughter wasn’t a lighting rod for further obsession. I always wanted my own babygirl. But we got two boys and I love them. But I wonder if LOs motherly attention to me AND LOs daughter was a one-two punch to my limerence. I know you cherish your daughter, but I’m a bit jealous Brother. Maybe it’s me clinging on to anything. But vasectomy aside Momma and I are too old to adopt. I guess I’ll live vicariously through our cat lol. She’s my babygirl now.
My sister surprised me this evening with a sweet thought.
She knows I have been grieving about the Reiner murders, and how it has brought up painful memories of trying to raise my own very difficult kids. They didn’t have substance abuse problems, but they had behavior problems, and I felt like nothing helped. We had shrinks, social workers, Special Ed teachers, all kinds of people involved.
It was extremely difficult and was not a rewarding process.
Anyway, my sister surprised me with a quote from President John F. Kennedy:
“Those who dare to fail miserably can achieve greatly.”
I had never heard this quote before and really like it.
Perhaps it applies to all of us struggling with limerence.
What a lovely quote. I will try to remind myself of it when I need it.
To Miss Cloud:
It certainly gave me comfort last night. I wrote it down and put it on the fridge.
So I was cleaning the room our oldest son stayed at home for the summer when he was still staying in the dorms and I found a framed picture he had of his ex. I asked Momma if I should just throw it away. And she said to keep and let him decide. It was a really bad break up for him. He was early helping me discard some stuff in the house. Heavy lifting. I told him I found some movies, games and other personal things of his. I said “I didn’t want to decide if you wanted me to keep that for you or not.” He picked it up looked at it for like a second and went into the kitchen and threw it in the trash. If only us limerents could do that so easily.
Dear Adam:
What a lovely thought. Do you think your son suffers any residual effects from the break-up?
My dear Miss Norma
Yeah it was bad. They’d been together 2 years. They made plans after getting out of college as far as marriage and possible children. We got to know her parents and sister and they invited us to Thanksgiving with them. In fact I bought her sister, who was an anime fan, my favorite anime of all time on Blu-Ray and she loved it. She’d never seen it before. A fairy tale almost. Than one night my wife and I were outside on the porch smoking (when we used to) and he comes out on the porch crying. She dumped him in a text and told him ever to call or text her with no explanation. I’ve never wanted to … But I shut up and let Momma do the talking cause I was mad at that … Have the decency to at least call if not in person for something like that. Let’s just say she should be glad she’s a woman 😡
To Adam:
Wow. Breakups are awful. No need to make it worse than it needs to be.
I hope your son has been able to deal with it.
I myself discovered that I am no longer able to trust anyone since my divorce, and that was more than 20 years ago.
Yeah, she owed him an explanation at least. Just breaking things off like that is cruel. 🙁
Miss Norma
I don’t know the circumstances of your divorce but I can’t imagine someone not wanting to be with a sweet woman like you.
He’s done well. He met his now lady friend in his first year in college in 2022 and they have been inseparable since. She is …. let me get this right … her mother is Hispanic and her father is Greek. Her name is Francesca (sp?). Very beautiful name. I of course add the Miss. She is a very sweet girl. They seem to adore each other so I think it is quite the permanent thing despite, as with all relationships, they’re troubled times. Her mother is an amazing cook. I’m hungry for her cooking even when I’m not hungry. 😁 She fuses Hispanic and Greek cuisine with amazing precision.
To Adam:
You’re making ME hungry.
Dr. L,
I just watched your “Limerence Grief is Real” video. Nuggets of wisdom. Hahaha! Very funny. Your videos on limerence contain more Easter eggs than a stack of classic Taylor Swift albums. Don’t think I didn’t notice you adopting the word “lusty” either in a video after Mila used it in a comment. (You’re both using the word incorrectly, by the way. But I’ll overlook such misuse, because such misuse strikes me as elegant. Technically, lusty means “full of vigour” and not “lustful”).
And to think I thought I was the only person at LwL allowed to be cheeky. To think I thought I was the “sacred clown” of the group. 🤣
I could use some good thoughts/prayers/whatever.
I lost a tooth on Monday–well, I know where it is–but it’s not repairable and I am not a candidate for an implant or a flipper. So I have a hillbilly hole in my mouth.
Today, I got my furnace serviced, thought it would be an easy fix, and it turns out to also be not repairable so I am having to get a whole new furnace, which is coming Friday. Thankfully I have the money, but it’s still a sizeable blow.
Not a great Christmas.
The good news–I am not tempted to contact LO. He’s not worth a $3.00 Grinch balloon and he is no help in painful situations.
Dear Norma,
May the tooth fairy bless you!
BTW, one of my favorite toys is the Grinch riding a bicycle! Now, if he could be paired with The Cat in the Hat, that would make a great portrait!
To CatCyclist:
I did not know that the Grinch could ride a bicycle. Guess I am not very well informed.
I never paid much attention to the Grinch until I got involved with LO.
Dearest Norma,
I was slightly overstating The Grinch’s abilities — it is a tricycle he is riding. His riding a bicycle was just a fantasy, but I suppose a bit more benign that my limerent fantasy!
Wish you a wonderful holiday and a mentally and physically healthy New Year!
Dear Miss Norma
I have a chipped front tooth. Granted it is my own fault I have it, unlike your situation. You won’t be any less of the pretty Miss Norma to me, so try not to be self conscious about it.
The financial blows are always at the wrong time. We had to have our furnace get serviced this week as well. Thankfully it was repairable. But we did have to buy a whole new unit 7-8 years ago and it really made a dent in our savings account. But recovering spent money takes way more time than spending it.
Dear God
Please help Miss Norma through the hard times. I know that there are blessings from You for her in the future. Financial stress can be very taxing. And I don’t want my friend Norma to be too stressed out. Please, God bless her with your grace so that she can get through this. In the name of your son Jesus
Amen
To Adam:
Thank you for the lovely prayer. My furnace was only six years old, so I am very displeased that I got a lemon. Happily, I have been very cautious with money, so I have enough for the new one.
The tooth is near the back of my mouth so at least it doesn’t show. But I have not adjusted to the unfamiliar feeling of the missing tooth.
How awful! We got a new furnace recently, so I know how much that costs. 😛
To Serial:
I was not expecting to have to replace it so soon. A very unpleasant surprise.
My personality is that I am always expecting unpleasant surprises, so had the money saved, thankfully.
Miss Norma
Why wife got a text from her father that they are going to be great grandparents. My wife’s step mothers found out her grandchild is pregnant. And I have this protective inclination that I don’t like the boy that did it. Her granddaughters are the same age as our boys. I don’t like thinking of these girls I’ve know since they were preteens are doing this. I immediately mistrust the man. 22-23 is too young to have children. I don’t know where to put this miss placed trust and appreciation about members of my own gender. I see them as my own granddaughters. Because I had no daughters of my own. I might meet him on Christimas tomorrow. Lord help me not to be an over protective father to her and be discourteous to her man.
To Adam:
Give him a chance. You might be pleasantly surprised.
You can always go back to hating him later, if necessary.
I hope so Miss Norma. My wife said “see this is why it’s a good thing we never had a girl of our own” 😁
Merry Christmas Miss Norma. I’ll be here to celebrate with you. Maybe have an eggnog together?
To Adam:
Mine needs to be non-alcoholic. But yes. That’s the best offer I’ve gotten all holiday season.
I was married at 23….They’re adults. Maybe they’re in love. 🙂
Serial I was too. I’m just … I dunno.
Miss Norma I will make you a virgin eggnog.
To Adam:
Sounds perfect!
As I said earlier, best offer I have had all holiday season.
I haven’t spoken to a living soul all day. Glad it’s almost over.
Christmas sucks when you’re by yourself.
I’m here with you Miss Norma you are not alone. I’ve got leftover turkey, mashed potatoes and stuffing. I don’t know if you like pumpkin pie but we got some of that too. You are not alone my dear friend.
To Adam:
Thank you for your kindness.
Today has been a truly awful day. I didn’t see a single person and did not go outside at all.
LO knows I am alone at Christmas and have no family. He didn’t even send a text message.
Just as well. It’s a good limerence-killer.
I am so sorry my dear Miss Norma. I wish I could share the holiday with you in person I’d give you a great big hug. You are my dear friend and always remember that. Big online hugs to you my dear.
I would like to wish everyone a Merry Christmas. 🙂
2025 has certainly been a big year for LwL, and Dr. L may wish to reflect on that himself at some point…
We’ve covered a lot of interesting topics, including some heavy hitters such as stalking.
We got to spend some time with the always-delightful Fenna. (How I wish I was on the receiving end of Fenna’s YT comments section. Half the comments are “You are so beautiful!” and the other half are “You look amazing!”). 😜
We got to benefit from the research David has been doing. What I like about David is his gift for getting at the truth of things without drowning that truth in masses of moral judgement. There’s certainly a time and a place for moral judgement e.g. when discussing how limerence affects established relationships. However, I think David’s less emotive, more clinical approach is the right approach for people who wish to study limerence strictly from an addiction perspective.
Dr. L has racked up his first full year on YT, which must have been exciting for him. If Dr. L had teenage kids, he could probably brag about his YT cred. And his teenage kids would take the wind out of his sails by saying something along the lines of: “No offence, Dad. But YT stopped being cool when you joined.” 😁
I apologise if I had to play “Mr Grumpy” this year to keep the comments section of the blog from descending into anarchy. However, I don’t think it’s fair to ask Dr. L to step in every time things go off track. Most of the readers here are middle-aged adults and know how to behave. One of the roles of the masculine is to impose focus and structure on chaos. (I must be channelling more of my masculine energy these days). And aren’t interactions with others so much more fun (and productive) when things precede in a somewhat orderly fashion? 😉
Single ladies in limerence, please know your contributions to LwL are indeed highly valued, just as the contributions of all readers are highly valued. But also please remember that this is a public forum and a supportive environment. “Fruity language” does not extend to outright curse words, no matter how much fun they are to say. (The woman who has broken this rule in the last couple of days knows exactly who she is, and will surely refrain from further lapses of this nature). The site is called “Living with Limerence”. It’s not called “Living with Middle-Aged People Who Get a Thrill Out of Using Taboo Words for No Reason”.
I’m sorry if I’ve set a poor example for the group by being cheeky from time-to-time. My natural personality unfortunately seems to incline toward the irresponsible, which is news to me, because I’ve always imagined myself as super-responsible. (Maybe I’m in deep denial?) Dr. L will be relieved to hear that I’ve finally gotten the bulk of my cheekiness out of my system, and maybe all conversations from now on can proceed in a slightly more elegant fashion?
Teika, thank you for putting up with all of us. I think of you as the First Lady of LwL, which of course you are. And before posting something, I stop and I ask myself: “What would the First Lady of LwL think of this?” (I try to bring a certain level of refinement to everything I say and everything I do, in other words).
Dr. L, I don’t want to embarrass you by saying what I think of you. You’re an Englishman. Last time I checked, Englishmen don’t do lurid displays of emotion. But, yes, the appreciation is real and the gratitude is enormous.
As a very shy and quiet person, with little self-confidence, and a semi-permanent outcast from polite society (largely by choice), I never thought my own offbeat personality would end up shaping the culture of a blog that doesn’t even belong to me. I didn’t know I was so smart. I didn’t know I cared so much. 😆
Merry Christmas to All!
10 minutes ago, I just got one unexpected, great Christmas 🎁 — my French gf’s hubby broke off with his LO (lived together for 1.5 yrs in their married house, which broke my sweet gf’s heart but not spirit), and he has asked my gf to be back together❗️ They are discussing openly what has happened for his LE period, how they have changed, and whether they can get back together…. My intuition is that they can ❗️
Of course, I had to throw her some LwL nuggets in nearly two-hour chat, without ever mentioning the term, limerence. I’m just so thrilled with her news! 🤩 🧨 💕
To those whose SO has strayed off to LO, hold onto your dimmed hope, nothing is nailed on the coffin yet❗️ If you two have built a strong emotional, mental connection/intimacy over 2 or 3 decades; they’re NOT that easily to be broken by those flashy, fantasized LOs. Sometimes, all SO can do is to wait out with patience and maximum peace — resentment is inevitable.
Luckily I did not grow up with Santa, otherwise, I’d believe HE came last night to punish me by delivering a long, winding nightmare, in which one of my dating experiences of two decades ago was reenacted, so detailed, narrative, unimaginably creepy/horrible in the dream (not so bad in reality)…. 😰
But my logical mind, the flying holiday greetings to and from my close friends across the seas, and intangible Christmas 🎁 💝 have buttered 🆙 my mood … 😊
Happy Holidays!
I am really glad that Christmas is over. This was an especially bad one.
I had three bad things happen to me in the space of about 48 hours this week, and then that was followed by–Christmas. I have been alone long enough to not expect anything or to hope for anything, so that part wasn’t too bad.
There is just a claustrophobic feeling, knowing that no stores are open if I felt the need to go somewhere, so I actually didn’t venture outside at all. I also know that my friends are busy with their families so I don’t feel comfortable trying to contact them and put them under more stress. The weather forecast was for rain, but there was very little of that.
I do want to thank the kindly people here for helping me. It is a great comfort to be able to come here and connect with kindred spirits.
LO made no attempt to call or text me, so he sinks even lower in my esteem. He knows I’m alone and that a short text would really lift my spirits. He truly is the Grinch.
Hugs, Norma! 🙂
This seems to be a very bad behaviour of your LO.. He knows you, lives near you, you have contact regularly and more than average „ neighbour talk“ and there is no Merry Christmas from him for you??
I won‘t write what I think now.. but to call him „Grinch“ isn‘t exactly what I mean..
To Laloba:
Thank you for your comments. Yes, I was pretty disappointed.
It doesn’t take much to just send a quick message.
Unless something critical happened with his mom’s health, this is incomprehensible.
Norma,
To be honest, it isn’t incomprehensible. You know what he’s like. He’s not doing anything he hasn’t done before.
Secondly … and this is a conclusion I’ve come to that I never wanted to but nonetheless have: You cannot have much expectation of adult friendship. Obviously if we have plans, I expect the other person to show up. But beyond that … not really. I heard from four friends yesterday. Two I was pretty sure I’d hear from. Two I was surprised to hear from. We’re not close. Another I thought I’d hear from but not even a text. This is a person who invited me over for Thanksgiving. I’m not saying I’m never disappointed by people because I am. But it’s a lot less than it used to be.
To Marcia:
The Buddhists say, “Attachment is the cause of all suffering.”
I remind myself of that daily.
ND:
This wasn’t a conclusion I wanted to come to. I wish people were more consistent, but they’re not. At least with friendship.
I expect someone to respond in a reasonable time frame if I reach out. And I expect them to show up if we make plans. That’s about it.
To Marcia:
The thing about LO is, he’s very polite and will usually answer me if I text him first.
But I don’t get why he doesn’t initiate contact very often. I guess I should be grateful.
If he was super-nice to me, I’d NEVER get over my limerence.
The Grinch thing is what saves me.
To ND:
“The thing about LO is, he’s very polite and will usually answer me if I text him first.”
Well, that’s something.
“But I don’t get why he doesn’t initiate contact very often. I guess I should be grateful.”
You’re still expecting him to demonstrate care and concern for you that he doesn’t. Consistency is wonderful. WONDERFUL. Does he exhibit it? No. And I personally don’t expect it from friendship. Friends come and go. Start looking at it as … I’m pleasantly surprised if he reaches out versus I’m disappointed that he didn’t.
You know who he is. You’ve met him. 🙂
To Marcia:
Speak of the Devil. LO just texted me. Too little too late.
Bah, humbug.
I’ve never even known LO on a personal level, but often I think about why and how she effected me in the way she did. In my mind it somehow became very personal. The way limerence hit me over her is still something very unique, to which I cannot say about any Lady I actually or personally now know.
The times I would like to see LO or know she is around now are often the times she is physically not.
I think about it and it will often bring me down, but I talk myself out of it, by realizing it was all in my head in the first place. Simply put, LO supplied the dopamine hit when I needed her most. It may not have worked out like I ever imagined or fantasized, but her presence definitely altered something in my psyche. She therefore gets a special place in my past. One that is definitely unique but one I am grateful for.
Norma,
“Speak of the Devil. LO just texted me. Too little too late.
Bah, humbug.”
It’s something. Be glad that he reached out. If he wants to bring over a nice X-Mas gift for you, you ain’t going to say no. 🙂
To Marcia:
When you’re right, you’re right.
MJ
One time we were discussing what to get for lunch and I was outvoted. But then LO came back with lunch (she always did the lunch run) and brought everyone what they wanted from the restaurant everyone else voted on but also stopped at Taco Bell, which is where I wanted to go, just for me and got all the stuff I liked because she paid attention to what I ordered previously when we went there. I don’t blame my Dear Norma if she accepted her LO’s Christmas gift if he did give her one.
“I don’t blame my Dear Norma if she accepted her LO’s Christmas gift if he did give her one.”
Adam
I feel like she is in the place she’s in because she does know him and to some degree accepts his nonsense.
I feel like she doesn’t get out much so he is sort of a safe person to not only have around but to think fondly of, even when he’s not physically or emotionally available. Almost like a person you want to like, but in some small way, want to loathe. Just because you have seen them at their worst,(Kinda like how I feel about LF now) and know what they are capable of.
Dearest Norma needs to make peace with this part about him. There are other fish in the sea who could do her way better. When that happens, she will wonder why she wasted so much time on this guy..
MJ
“There are other fish in the sea who could do her way better.”
Yes there is. And it is the biggest reason I try to be a good friend to my Dear Norma.
I’ve been quite vocal I’d take a swing (or two) at him if we ever crossed paths. I quite detest men who treat women like that. It really gets my goat up.
But I also understand Dear Norma is a place in life that she feels alone and isolated. When I’m feeling the same; I drink. Norma resists the urge to reach out to her LO. So I am in no place to judge. But just like alcohol is no good for me so is Dear Norma’s LO; but it’s familiar for us both.
To Adam and MJ:
The thing is, I was never looking for anyone to date.
I got divorced in 2002 and I haven’t had a date, by choice.
The only reason I have anything to do with LO is because I got hit by the limerence stick. It’s not as if I particularly want to “trade” LO for someone better. I don’t want to date anybody, but I am enthralled with LO.
I don’t know if that makes sense at all. My health is quite poor and I don’t have the strength to be in a relationship.
When LO moves away, I will not be looking for a replacement.
I’m not in my right mind Dear Norma …. you need a new LO? 😁 I’d be honored.
Dear Adam:
You are so funny! You make me smile. Bless you for that.
ND:
Did your LO get you a gift? For those of us with no contact with our LOs, we’re dying over here. 🙂 I’m a cheap date. I’d take cheap gift. 🙂
To Marcia:
LO took me to Starbucks today and offered me whatever I wanted.
I am not a big fan of Starbucks food so I just got a sparkling water.
But I suppose I could have ordered everything on the menu if I wanted to. He seems fine with it.
We had a blast talking about old TV shows from the 1960s, because we’re old.
“I’m a cheap date. I’d take cheap gift. 🙂”
Marcia
How about a cup of coffee with your favorite limerent? ☕️😆
MJ,
“How about a cup of coffee with your favorite limerent? ☕️😆”
Do you watch a lot of rom-coms in which the male character keeps asking the female characters out over and over in hopes of wearing her down?
MJ,
That was supposed to have a smiley face after it. 🙂
I never really expected you to accept. I was just doing my usual chime-in, only to troll you. I’m not good for much else these days.
Besides, you were calling yourself a cheap date. Did you really believe I wouldn’t rib you for that?? 😆
I got NewGirl a cheap gift. I think she liked it.. 🫠
MJ,
“Besides, you were calling yourself a cheap date. Did you really believe I wouldn’t rib you for that?? 😆”
I’m going to let you in on a little secret. The price of admission is lower if a woman really likes you. I was watching a video on YouTube by a psychologist or psychiatrist (not sure which) and he said that if a woman really likes a man, she won’t care if they’re sitting in the parking lot of Taco Bell on a date. There’s some truth to that. It’s a bad sign if the man feels he has to win over a woman with expensive gifts and dinners or has to jump through a lot of hoops.
“I got NewGirl a cheap gift. I think she liked it.. 🫠”
You have 4 days, my dude. And if it doesn’t happen by then, I don’t want to hear about her again. 🙂
Marcia, MJ
Did I ever tell you guys that my LO4/xSO proposed me, after a guitar concert we went to in the late evening, with only a cup of coffee in a hotel lobby, without a ring or any gift? And I immediately said, YES.
No honeymoon, no postponed engagement ring… no wonder that marriage could NOT last long, 😞 I’m very superstitious on this…
I question I’d ever wear an engagement ring even just for a few months — never assume that everything would sail smoothly before that Church Bell ringing.…
3 days left for Sir 🦎 to make a move… 🌹 💪
Marcia, I would go further than that. I would not trust a man who tried to win me over with expensive gifts and dates. I would think he was trying to buy me. Love to me is about two people enjoying being together, not extravagant gestures to “win” someone over.
Besides, a thoughtful gift with little or no monetary value is worth far more than an expensive one.
Cloud,
“Besides, a thoughtful gift with little or no monetary value is worth far more than an expensive one.”
I agree. I was really talking about courtship. The idea of spending a lot of money/extravagant gestures. That being said, there needs to be effort made. A man reveals his interest in his efforts. But a ton of money does not have to be spent. A date doesn’t have to be some huge, big outing. And “effort” is also the giving of someone’s time and consistency of communication, etc.
“You have 4 days, my dude. And if it doesn’t happen by then, I don’t want to hear about her again. 🙂”
Marcia
To get you up to speed again, you should know I’ve been making a concerted effort to connect with her. Our texting has increased and I believe she is probably aware I have an interest beyond being just work friends. But I’m not blatantly putting that out there nor disclosing anything of that nature. I’m trying to stay calm and passive, without worrying or putting too much thought into what it is right now or what it could be. I think I need this strategy because worrying too much or being emotionally invested in something that isn’t, hasn’t exactly worked well for me in the past. I admit I am hesitant because I know her and LF talk, but they are hardly best buds. I know that shouldn’t matter but I don’t believe LF has trash talked about me to her. I honestly wouldn’t care if she did. Ultimately I am making the friendship with her what it is based on her behavior back with me. Which is a little kinder and more mature than anything LF ever was with or around me.
She has revealed she is the anxious type who is easily frazzled around others. Who does not do well in crowds. I can sort of tell this by the times she would like to be left alone. There are also the times she is first to text and then wants to keep the conversation txt going, even when it takes me by surprise and I may not have the time to reply back as timely as I’d like.
I invited her to meet me for midnight mass last week, hoping she might take me up on the offer. I told her how much I’ve enjoyed her company and would love for her to join me in that setting. Because we’re both Catholic and have that in common, it seemed like a good ask. However she declined because she had her kid that night. Which really didn’t surprise me. I didn’t expect it. Yet give me credit for the effort. It would have been a very cheap “free” date..
My point is, yes I am going to make a move and ask her what night she has free this week. Yet I feel like she is going to decline because she’s admitted its very hard for her to make the time being a Mother. Much like its hard for me to commit because Dad can have issues at any given moment. In other words, perhaps neither of us are ready. I also feel like she’s also leery of my kindness because she always seems to be apologizing a lot to me about whatever. Could be about not meeting up, not wanting to talk, or just not replying to a txt at all. When she goes cold, I have to wonder. I’ve even asked and she says it’s not me.
I sent her a picture of something I saw at a department store that had her initial on it, so I sent it to her with the caption, “Found you next year’s present already” Her reply was, “On clearance huh??”
I replied, “Don’t worry, I’ll fill it with stuff you like” which garnered me a thumbs up 👍🏻.. 😆
I feel like she’s got Ex issues going on she’d rather not talk about. I don’t know if he’s been abusive or anything, but my laid back attitude and accepting her as she is, I feel like surprises her. Perhaps she hasn’t ever met a guy like me before and maybe thats a good thing or just startling at this point.
I don’t know but stay tuned for updates. This may go nowhere. I’ll be waiting for your prompt reply.. 😆
MJ,
“I invited her to meet me for midnight mass last week, hoping she might take me up on the offer. I told her how much I’ve enjoyed her company and would love for her to join me in that setting. Because we’re both Catholic and have that in common, it seemed like a good ask. ”
Perfect. That’s actually a nice thing to ask her to join you to do.
“However she declined because she had her kid that night. ”
She could have brought the kid.
So you’ve asked and she declined. It’s her job to make a counter offer. I wouldn’t ask her to do something again, as you have already tentatively discussed dinner. So she knows. You’ve done enough. I don’t think you need to cut off the friendship/texting but if I were you I’d shift my energies to someone who’s more available. And as always … don’t wait so long to ask. We’ve talked about this before. Don’t hover.
“She could have brought the kid.”
Marcia
True that, but given the situation and that she may not know how my feelings would be surrounding it, I think thats why it wasn’t suggested. Tbh I’m not exactly wild about her kid being in this picture but its part of the package. I feel like she too wants it to be about us, instead of us and her kid there with us, as the awkward 3rd wheel. If she’s anything like other single Moms I’ve known, they don’t usually introduce their kids to a new guy into the picture, until they know for sure things are going to work out between them. So the kids do not become attached, making it harder for Mom to have to explain, telling them why, if things didn’t work out.
As for the counter-offer, she did sort of suggest meeting up for pizza during the break because work won’t be in the way and it might be easier for her to arrange something. I only asked about midnight mass, hoping we could meet up and she could get used to the idea of us hanging out. If she then still wanted to do the pizza thing, that would a double bonus for me, because then we’d be meeting up twice.. ✌🏻😁
I still talk to my other Latina friend now and then too. We’ve talked a little more, so I think I might even be able to ask her out at some point or at least get her number. As for availability, she kind of talks like she is, but I’m still not sure. Her accent is so cute and sexy. I try to make any conversation with her last and last just so I can hear her speak to me in that spanish accent. I think I could get away with asking her now. She’s like super attractive anyway so I would be kinda surprised if she was. But it won’t hurt to ask..😍
MJ,
I just don’t understand why it takes you SOOOOO LONG to ask and it’s SOOOO COMPLICATED to get the plans in motion and off the ground? 🙂
And I don’t know her policy on bringing kids around men friends, but I think of Mass on Christmas Eve as a wholesome, family activity. You’re not taking him to an adult outing, like an R-rated movie.
I know I’m in trouble when I see your responses and they’re 8 paragraphs long. And all I asked was if you two went to dinner yet, which is simple question with a yes or no answer. 🙂
I’m sorry your Christmas week as been this way dear Norma. Ours went fairly well. Our oldest came home and my wife’s father and step mother. (I did most of all the cooking.) I’ve posted myself on here before so why not again?
Youngest (19 yo) Me (blue shirt my just gave me for Christmas) Oldest (22 yo)
https://imgur.com/a/glBGsOB
To dear Adam:
Thank you for sharing that lovely picture. I would like to give all of you a hug.
Aww, content not available in my country. I could have done with a new LO!
Okay, my new furnace is installed. Instead of being mad that my first one only lasted six years (grrr), I am trying to focus on being grateful that I have the money to pay for the new one.
I had to finance the one six years ago, but I am able to pay in full now, due to the fact that my circumstances are a little different.
So that is something to be grateful for. Also, it’s raining outside and I am warm and dry inside.
Escape
D.H. Lawrence
1885-1930
When we get out of the glass bottles of our own ego,
and when we escape like squirrels from turning
in the cages of our personality
and get into the forest again,
we shall shiver with cold and fright
but things will happen to us
so that we don’t know ourselves.
Cool, unlying life will rush in,
and passion will make our bodies taut with power,
we shall stamp our feet with new power
and old things will fall down,
we shall laugh, and institutions will curl up like burnt
paper.
Thank you Snow. I often feel as though I’ve turned into the cage of my personality. I could do anything, if only I had the imagination to figure out what and how.
☁️,
Personality is fluidic and always evolve, subtly or suddenly, as we grow/mature, keep our curious mind open, rejuvenate our compassionate heart to something out of cultural boxes…
Most of us have imaginations, but not everyone has courages to speculate or act out “new, or more earthen, or organic unthinkable in one’s habitual social setting, thus unable to break the invisible cage bars of our over-praised, stale “personality”, which is not inherited but formed /shaped by cultural influences and personal experiences.
I like the rawness of the nature in D.H. Lawrence’s poetry… and admire his brave, out-of-box lifestyle
Snow,
“I like the rawness of the nature in D.H. Lawrence’s poetry… and admire his brave, out-of-box lifestyle”
That’s ironic you posted D.H. Lawrence. I just started reading “Lady Chatterley’s Lover.” I watched the 2022 movie version on Netflix recently and I wanted to see how closely it followed the book. (I read the book decades ago.) I liked the movie but I don’t remember her taking such an assertive role initially in their affair. But of course the filmmakers had to “PC” the movie up.
Anyway, the book is very well-written. He’s very good and detailing the characters and describing their motivations.
I stumbled upon an old copy that was published by Grove Press, which was the first publisher to publish the book in the U.S. after the obscenity trial. The copyright is 1959.
Marcia,
I’ve studied the book (as a requirement) and watched 2 or 3 other versions of the movie, aside from 2022 one. 2006 French version is longer and much more sensual than other versions…
It’s not a LE affair story, but breaking “polite”, cruel conventional society. Lawrence is all about breaking old rules in almost all his works. But sometimes, the reality wins over his sense of romance.
The movie, “Breaking the Waves” (2006) is greater, showing the crippled, truly loving husband’s humanity.
Snow,
“I’ve studied the book (as a requirement) and watched 2 or 3 other versions of the movie, aside from 2022 one. 2006 French version is longer and much more sensual than other versions…”
I’ve read the 2006 French version is good. I should watch it.
I liked the 2022 version. I liked the two leads (Connie and Mellors). I recommend it.
I’m waiting for my goodie bag of treats from your meal yesterday. I will not be offended by leftovers. 🙂
Marcia,
French version of “Lady Charley’s Love” made me to appreciate men’s and women’s sensuality never like before — those vivid sensuous scenes… French actors in general are so earthly sensual and beautiful… (sorry I don’t go for modern Hollywood regardless big or small names)
Here is my goodie bag from last evening. It’s smaller with less people.
https://imgur.com/a/RlvkxF1
I keep on wondering so I’m finally going to ask. What is a furnace? In the UK, a furnace is something used in industry, not something you would get in a home. In the olden days a blacksmith used a furnace to work with iron. A blast furnace is something you use to melt metal, or heat iron ore to extract iron. Or you might call a large waste incinerator a furnace. I am entertained by an image of you wearing a large heat-proof visor hammering bits of iron to into shape. Is it what we call a boiler, which is the thing in your home that burns gas for hot water and central heating?
This was meant to be in reply to Norma Desmond but I tapped the wrong “reply” link so it’s gone right to the bottom.
To Miss Cloud:
Oh, we have such fun with language! This is a forced-air gas heater. It’s mounted upstairs and distributes the heat through ductwork.
A boiler is what you call it? I am still recovering from the discussion of chips and crisps.
To Miss Cloud:
And separate from a hot water heater, which is, well, separate. That’s in the garage. The furnace is in the hall upstairs.
That image of me in the heat-proof visor is hilarious. I have the muscle strength of a newborn kitten, so what you’re describing would be pretty daunting.
☁️,
Personality is fluidic and always evolve, subtly or suddenly, as we grow/mature, keep our curious mind open, rejuvenate our compassionate heart to something out of cultural boxes…
Most of us have imaginations, but not everyone has courages to speculate or act out “new, or more earthen, or organic unthinkable in one’s habitual social setting, thus unable to break the invisible cage bars of our over-praised, stale “personality”, which is not inherited but formed /shaped by cultural influences and personal experiences.
I like the rawness of the nature in D.H. Lawrence’s poetry… and admire his brave, out-of-box lifestyle…