How’s that for an arresting welcome to the LwL virtual coffeehouse?
David, author of the Wikipedia page on limerence, emailed me recently about a TikToker and psychiatrist named Dr Ahmed Hankir, who’s recently gone viral by describing limerence as a “tell-tale sign” that someone has Borderline Personality Disorder, and the “worst symptom” of the condition.
There were big splashes about it in Newsweek and the Daily Mail too.
It’s another case of using analogies to claim that limerence is actually a manifestation of a mental health condition—rather like last week’s post about stalking.
So, just in case you were worried that limerence might be a sign that you do have BPD, I thought it might be useful to explain why he’s wrong.
What is BPD?
Perhaps the most confusingly named of the personality disorders, Borderline Personality Disorder is characterised by intense fear of abandonment, mood instability, fragile self-identity, impulsive behaviour and turbulent relationships.
The archetypal symptom of BPD is known as “splitting”—a sudden emotional reversal of feeling about friends or romantic partners, from idealisation to devaluation.
From, “You’re my soulmate, my world, and I’ll love you forever” to “You’re evil, and I hate you.”
The American Psychiatric Association estimates that 2-5% of the general population have BPD.
Given that, why would Dr Hankir conclude that limerence is a symptom of BPD?
When non-limerents try to understand limerence
Dorothy Tennov made an insightful comment about the problems of understanding limerence in the preface to the second edition of her classic work Love and Limerence:
“People who have not experienced limerence are baffled by descriptions of it and are often resistant to the evidence that it exists. To such outside observers, limerence appears pathological.”
Dorothy Tennov
I’ve encountered the same problem. Trying to explain limerence to someone who has never experienced it results in a chain of reasoning that seems to go:
- That sounds like obsessive love
- Obsessive love is unhealthy
- Limerence is like OCD/stalking/bipolar disorder/BPD
Limerence has some overlapping symptoms with other conditions, and so outside observers trying to make sense of it might simply assume they have the same origin.
But it’s important to clearly state that any claim that limerence causes, or is caused by, another condition like BPD is not based on research or clinical evidence. We don’t have any data on it. There is no published research that tests these ideas directly.
The argument rests on a sort of false inference—A and B share symptoms, so they must be related.
It would be just as feasible to argue:
- Do you ever feel like you want to achieve more in your life?
- Do you feel that your efforts aren’t appreciated, or that people don’t understand you?
- Maybe you even feel that God has a plan for you, and you wish you could figure out what it is?
Watch out! You might have narcissistic personality disorder.
The “idealisation” symptom of BPD has some similarities to limerence, for sure (intense desire, feelings of special connection, exaggerating value and minimising flaws), but that’s pretty much the only thing they have in common.
Limerents don’t typically “split” and start to hate their limerent object with inverse passion. They might start mirroring their limerent objects mannerisms and opinions, but they don’t lose their self-identity. They might be anxious when it seems that their LO is not reciprocating, but they don’t have an emotional collapse over abandonment.
However, if half the population experience limerence, it’s inevitable that some people with borderline personality disorder will also develop limerence.
That such people then idealise their LO, become obsessed, and then cycle through the other symptoms of fractured self-identity, fear of abandonment, and splitting, is a predictable consequence of their pre-existing psychological vulnerabilities.
Limerence doesn’t happen because they have BPD, it happens and they have BPD.
The same principle applies to other conditions.
Hyperfixation on a LO does not mean a limerent has ADHD.
Obsessive thoughts does not mean a limerent has OCD.
The desperate desire to be close to their LO does not mean a limerent is a stalker-in-waiting.
Limerence, fundamentally, is a mental state. Lots of people can fall into it.
Some limerents will have other conditions that will colour the way they experience limerence, and which symptoms predominate, but it’s a mistake to assume that one causes the other.
Anyway, thanks for David for the head’s up, and over to the community to add some outraged comments in the thread below, before moving on to the important business of chat and gossip.
When I read Dr. Hankir’s article, I could actually see myself in the symptoms. To explain my entire behavior and emotional life, I’m always looking for reasons I can sum up in a single word. I wanted to show my therapist the article and Dr. Bellamy’s reply.
I don’t find Dr. Hankir’s conclusion convincing. If the illness—or whatever you want to call it—is related to traumatic childhood experiences, then in my opinion, psychoanalysis is more helpful than behavioral therapy.
One of us had better explain for the benefit of audiences outside the UK, that the Daily Mail is what most of us refer to as “gutter press”. Its articles are deliberately written to be sensationalist and cause disapproval and outrage: right-wing populist clickbait in newspaper form. It is not a serious news outlet. To be criticised by the Daily Mail is a badge of honour. I did click the link because I wanted to read the article, but regretfully because I don’t want to generate advertising revenue for it.
I didn’t know that, I am from Germany. Thanks for the information.
To Miss Cloud:
Thank you for that. I have heard of the Daily Mail, but I know nothing about it.
I am so glad I read this before I heard anything about a connection to BPD.
I am one of those people who convinces herself that I have the symptoms of every disease I hear about.
ND,
If you’re really worried that you’re a borderline, you probably aren’t.
Ask yourself:
How much havoc do I wreak in peoples’ lives?
Do I wreak havoc on purpose? (if no, you might be borderline; if yes, you might be a narcissist or sociopath. I don’t have much experience with histronics.)
Am I capable of regret and remorse?
There are nine diagnostic criteria for each personality disorder. You have to meet 5 of 9 to win a clinical diagnosis.
Cluster Bs of any variety tend to leave wreckage behind them. The really bad ones are like tornados going through a mobile home park.
To L.E.:
I’m not really worried. I am nothing like the description.
I am a conciliatory person who tries to repair discord.
I just seem to imagine that I have the symptoms of any disease I read about.
ND,
You sound like my wife.
When Women’s Word magazine was $1.49, she’d buy them at the grocery store every week. Every issue had a “disease of the week” article. She was sure she had every one.
To L.E.:
That’s me. Disease of the Week.
Thanks for the shoutout.
There are actually five articles about this guy now, claiming limerence is a symptom of BPD, and he’s simply a guy on TikTok making stuff up.
I think the comment filter won’t let me post that many links, so the journalists who wrote these articles are:
– Lucy Notarantonio (Newsweek.com)
– Divya Verma (Inquisitr.com)
– Emily Lefroy (DailyMail.com)
– Susan LaMarca (DailyDot.com)
– Jonathan Pierce (Chronik.fr)
I monitor stuff like this as part of maintaining the Wikipedia article, but fortunately these are not sources Wikipedia would consider reliable. However, a movement like this is the first step of laundering the information into more reliable sources by a careless journalist or editor who does not notice these articles are misinformation.
The media flurry around Albert Wakin in the 2010s also used a similar process, and nobody noticed those early sources (blogs and so on) were unreliable until I started checking them when I started rewriting the Wikipedia article in 2024. My discoveries about this are documented on the Wikipedia talk page.
Some of these new articles about BPD also refer to Ahmed Hankir as an “expert”, but obviously he’s not.
It’s almost as many articles as there are about Tom Bellamy, which is worrying, but the articles about Tom tend to be in more reputable outlets.
Tom is the only person I would consider an expert on limerence, or leading expert, on what it is and how it works, especially for what people in internet communities are talking about.
Thank you for your thorough and thoughtful research. In a world of social media misinformation and sloppy journalism, it’s reassuring see people gathering and sharing information in a responsible fashion.
A sixth article has been written, by Britt Jones (Tyla.com).
Yeah, I’ve actually known somebody with BPD. She had a family history of it. Broke off relations with her because she was mean to me; she still watches me online 15 years later. I’m not like her. 😛
Great overview of a great topic, Dr. L.
I recently read David’s updated Wikipedia entry on limerence. There he notes that (a) Tennov herself observes that even distressing limerence isn’t pathological and (b) Fisher may have viewed romantic love as a positive addiction when reciprocated and as a negative addiction when unreciprocated. Or, at least, that was my understanding of the article… An addiction that’s positive – now there’s an intriguing concept.
I know certain readers at LwL love to bounce up and down, loudly insisting limerence isn’t pathological. A certain female fan of Fenna’s YT channel likes to do the same, and I think we all know who the lady in question is, because she enjoys arguing with Fenna as much as she enjoys arguing with everyone else. And, well, according to all reputable research on the subject, they’re/she’s … right. Limerence in itself constitutes neither a mental illness nor a character defect.
Nonetheless, limerence still leads to heated disagreements, fallings-out between friends, guilt, shame, endless moralising, etc. Why? Well, as Tennov notes, non-limerents really have a hard time wrapping their heads around something they haven’t experienced firsthand. Fair enough. And limerents just … get bored of other limerents droning on about their LOs/LEs. (I’m guessing. I mean, I wouldn’t know. I’ve never droned on about any LOs/LEs, have I?) 🤣
From what I’ve seen, even Lucy Bain never comes out and directly says limerence is a pathology. What Bain says is actually something far more subtle. What Bain says is that it may be helpful for some people – kind of as a little psychological trick – to think of limerence as if it were a pathology when trying to recover. However, she also compares conquering limerence to overcoming sugar addiction. So, for Bain, pathology is an analogy and not a label/category. What Bain DOES seem to acknowledge, however, is that limerence is a behavioural addiction.
I was listening to a song by Sugababes called “Too Lost in You”, which could be interpreted as being about limerence. I also thought that some well-meaning folk might conclude the song is a rather toxic anthem to limerence and a song that may enable bad behaviour. Here are some lyrics:
I’m going crazy in love for you baby
(I can’t eat and I can’t sleep)
I’m going down like a stone in the sea
Yeah, no one can rescue me
I must say, I like the maritime imagery. Going down “like a stone in the sea”, huh? Certainly beats a lot of the tired imagery found in many contemporary pop confections.
I also heard this other wonderful song called “Butterfly” by Marina. (Yes, Marina of Marina and the Diamonds fame). Here are some lyrics, which I think are absolutely heavenly, especially when delivered in Marina’s heavenly voice:
To become a butterfly
Parts of me had to die
Spread my wings in the golden light
And I fly
Marina’s song about being a butterfly is very moving to me because, while she is presumably singing about the end of a relationship with a man who didn’t appreciate her, the butterfly motif in my mind is closely linked to themes of rebirth accompanying the fading of a particular limerent episode.
Dr. L, I think I may have said something incorrect yesterday. Permit me to set the record straight here. I thought your “Popular Videos” list contained fifteen videos, because the way YT displays said list deceives the eye into seeing three groups of five. Turns out the “Popular Videos” list only contains twelve videos. This means your latest video – “Don’t Fight It” – it actually doing better than I thought. In fact, in just 24 hours, it’s moved from Number Eleven spot to Number Nine spot.
If “7 Signs of Limerence” can be considered a juggernaut video (highest number of views in the shortest period of time), “Don’t Fight It” may well follow suit. You may soon be dealing with two juggernauts on your hands. I don’t know what’s going on. Maybe the algorithm on YT has finally kicked in? Maybe some LwLers are belatedly tuning in? Or maybe you just make great stuff that people in general enjoy watching? I’ve heard you do great facial expressions, by the way. I was going to tell you not to be afraid to break out the sock puppets if you ever get desperate, or even the finger puppets, but I think that would be cheeky. 🙂
New favourite YT comment someone left you: “Aw yiss.”
Special thanks to David for writing and rewriting the Wikipedia entry on limerence. Special thanks to David for all other work done pertaining to limerence. Special thanks to Dr. L for being so committed to putting out quality content regarding limerence online – quality content that will hopefully combat some of the most damaging misconceptions about limerence that currently proliferate. Special thanks to Sugababes and Marina for being fabulous.
I think your guess that the algorithm on YT has finally kicked in, is probably right. I am new to LwL and it’s because I come here via YT, which brought me straight to Dr L’s channel.
I appreciate this, thank you.
When I started researching this, I wanted to understand all the possible viewpoints, so I cast as wide a net as possible initially, reading all kinds of different things about love instead of just looking for sources on limerence specifically.
Something that I think people overlook is that many forms of “romantic love” seem unhealthy when compared to an ideal, not just limerence.
I’ve been working on rewriting a different article which has some definitions of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance
Westerners have a positive appraisal of the “romantic love” concept, but the cultural ideas actually seem to cause some level of dissatisfaction. People have very high expectations for love, which real relationships rarely seem to live up to. This even goes for nonlimerents as well, actually. There’s a study by de Munck & Kronenfield (2016) which has a few case studies demonstrating this.
I even also see crushes as kind of pernicious now, because they’re really a “gateway drug” to limerence. I think young people should be taught to avoid crushes instead of chasing after them, and thereby exposing themselves to the situations that contribute to limerence developing.
I find that people tend to compare limerence to a cultural idea of how they think “falling in love” ought to work, rather than trying to understand how it works in reality.
Culturally, people have a belief system that’s kind of like the following:
– There’s a person out there that you’re “supposed” to be in a relationship with (your “soul mate” or “the one”).
– The more a person is the “right” partner for you, the more intensely “in love” you would be with that person (i.e. “more is better”).
– You would fall most intensely in love with “the one” when you met them, so falling in love is “supposed” to tell you who the one is.
– Also, an initial attraction (“glimmer”) is “supposed” to tell you who you will fall in love with, so you should pursue a relationship with someone you are initially attracted to.
– Therefore, if you fell intensely in love with the “wrong” person and it went bad, that must be wrong or even unusual.
Beliefs like this are called “romantic idealism” or “romanticism”, but there’s not much scientific evidence (if any) to support the idea that falling in love is really supposed to work that way in reality.
If you believe the romantic idealist version of how falling in love works, then limerence seems very pathological by comparison. Dorothy Tennov kind of wanted to show people how it worked in reality, and I would say that the scientific research on romantic love is actually consistent with her idea. That is, while the explicit details of limerence theory are still yet (mostly) untested, the research does not (yet) disprove her ideas either.
“even Lucy Bain never comes out and directly says limerence is a pathology. What Bain says is actually something far more subtle. What Bain says is that it may be helpful for some people – kind of as a little psychological trick – to think of limerence as if it were a pathology when trying to recover.”
From memory, Bain likened limerence to OCD, which she also researches.
Limerence as a form of addiction is pathological enough!
This is supposed to be the Coffeehouse, so I guess I will change the subject and talk about something else.
I was mulling over today how much I projected onto LO the IDEA of what I wanted him to be, rather than who he is. He’s really nothing like the person I imagined him to be. The good news for me is that he is not particularly personable, which helps me with my limerence problem in the long run.
I have discovered that white-knuckle No Contact does not work for me. What works better is limited exposure to him, while gradually being exposed to a multitude of unpleasant behaviors.
I have had the opportunity to observe and interact with him for about three years now, and I am finding less and less to be impressed with. The fact that he put his aesthetic desires ahead of his elderly mother’s welfare made a big impression on me.
I do feel I am making good progress. It’s never quite fast enough for me, but at least it’s moving in the right direction.
I suppose my question is, does seeing his faults help beat the limerence? Or is the limerence an unbearable fascination with the aspects you’re attracted to, without reference to the bits you dislike? It would be interesting to explore that, just in case your recovery is relying on a false premise. This is a genuine question, not meant to undo the good progress you’ve already made.
Check out:https://livingwithlimerence.com/how-to-get-rid-of-limerence/
It’s an LwL classic.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/case-study-i-dont-want-to-devalue-my-limerent-object/
The general consensus is devaluating your LO can help you beat limerence in the short term. Devaluation can buy you time to determine and implement long term strategies. Devaluation is like saying “Drugs (i.e., your LO) are bad and staying away from them, if you can. But, you’re still an addict.
To Limerent Emeritus:
Yes, still an addict, but perhaps not as tempted to partake.
Thank you for reminding me about that first article. I have read it before, but it’s well worth a re-read.
Part of it hasn’t worked with me–I disclosed to LO right up front and he said he was fine with it, and we could still be friends. So no nuclear meltdown.
I will say that his history of less-than-desirable behavior is the thing that’s wearing me down best. As an example, I have recently asked him for two tiny favors that he could easily fulfill, but yet he does nothing. That has an effect, and continues to have an effect, as time passes.
And of course, you may recall that he has an oil painting of mine which I gave him for repair in March of 2023.
It’s hard to be limerent for someone who procrastinates like that. I can see that I am a very low priority and it takes a toll.
To Miss Cloud:
Oh, seeing his faults definitely helps beat the limerence. I have been blown away at some of the bonehead things he has said and done. Each time he says or does something inexplicable, the limerence fades a bit.
I am still fascinated with him. I have told him he is the most interesting man in the world, and I mean it. I am still absolutely enamored of his house, which will end as soon as he sells it and moves.
Overall, though, I am satisfied with my progress. I read somewhere that three years is about average? I think I am right in the ballpark.
Thank you for asking about me.
Glad to hear it. Keep up the good work.
I’m way past three years, sadly, but it’s only been a few months since I discovered Dr L’s work, and I feel as though that reset the clock.
To Miss Cloud:
Everyone has their own timetable.
If LO were nicer to me, I would be having a much harder time.
It’s harder to be limerent for a Grinch than for a kindly person.
My strategy has to be very different, because my LO is a nice, normal person, and my husband and I are both friends with him and his wife. We all have plenty in common and no sources of tension. For me it’s more about understanding the unhappiness which led me to developing a crush on another man in addition to being in love with my husband. The combination of circumstances is no longer present, and the crush is really just a habit that I am slowly shaking off. It’s amazing how sticky it is, though.
To Miss Cloud:
If I remember correctly, your family and his family are all friendly and involved in activities together, yes?
Your situation is definitely more complicated than mine.
Yes, that’s right. It would be impossible to avoid him without arousing suspicion. Neither do I want to avoid him, except that I feel I ought to. This is the problem! Sometimes I can go for a few weeks without happening to see him, but it’s largely out of my control.
Cloud,
Your LE and mine sound similar in some ways. There is also nothing much to demonise about my LO. Every time I have ever tried, she sabotages it with kindness. Avoidance would also arouse suspicion, and her presence in my life happens more days than not by necessity. So I have to work with similar strategies to you, both for understanding why I’m drawn in, and for day to day management.
One of the most helpful strategies I find is gathering evidence that “this situation is not, and never was, as special to her as it is to my brain”. I have also been able to stop seeing the positive evidence I get as representing anything more than “this is a nice pleasant friendship”. Because that is what it is, and no amount of kidding myself – in either direction – is really going to change that.
I can feel from your posts that you’ve moved forward, even if there are occasional backslides. I didn’t know it had been going on as long as you recently said. Mine is about 6 months less.
Miss Norma, I can also hear progress in your posts lately 🙂 We all have to find a way that works for us.
To LaR:
If LO sabotaged me with kindness, I’d never get over my limerence.
As painful as his behavior is, it’s going to be the thing that ends up saving me.
Impossible to stay enamored of someone who acts the way he does.
Norma,
Yes, I can see how his more unkind sides are what keep it at bay for you, and that by noticing them more, that’s how you can shift it. I do always think, though, that the question of “will (s)he be kind or not today?” creates that kind of slot machine uncertainty that is fertile ground for limerence.
My LO does have her more abrasive side (a natural part of her personality) and occasionally I get pockets of that directed at me. It can then go into the evidence bank for “I’m not so special”. As I said to Cloud, I always want to collect evidence like that to help me move on. But once I’ve taken care to assemble some of it, the ‘sabotage with kindness’ often occurs! See – I too play the 🎰
*But* – that is in no way meant to trivialise some of the bad treatment your LO dishes out to you. For what my opinion’s worth, you are right to focus on that and hold onto it if you want the LE to end.
I like a good stat, so please try this one for size if you feel comfortable to … From the peak, if we call that 100%, then to what % would you say your limerence for him has reduced now?
(I think this is a good question for any limerent to answer 🤔)
LaR
I want to personally thank you for being here for Miss Norma. Ya’ll seem to have a good rapport and a commonality in your limerence. Thank you for you (and others) being there for her. Her LO makes me red hot Hulk anger at the way she treats my Dear Norma. I’ve gotten to where I will scan her posts and if I see an L or an O on the post, I’m out.
Miss Norma if you read this I’m looking forward to another dance with you. I like this song that my wife introduced me too. But it’s ok to wear your loose fitting pants.
Conway Twitty — Tight Fittin Jeans
https://youtu.be/xs1kwVeKcRg?si=nki40l5cD_2SVwNq
To LaR:
Such a great question! I think it has decreased about 75%.
Give or take a little.
LO took me out for my birthday last month and was nice to me. But it didn’t cause me to backslide the way I might have previously. Instead, I found myself thinking, “Well, you CAN be nice when you want to. Too bad you don’t want to most of the time.”
To Adam:
Love the song. Would love to dance with you.
No idea if there is a tiger inside my baggy old lady pants.
I don’t know much about BPD, but I feel like the term gets thrown around a lot like it seems in recent times, autism, narcissism, or OCD is. “Oh you must have OCD your house is so clean.” “Oh you have problems keeping attention on one thing, you must be autistic.”
How is everyone riddled with these mental disorders, when, at least in the case of BPD, only 2-5% of the general population experience it? I was married to my wife for almost 10 years before she was properly diagnosed by a professional and given the right medicine for her bi-polar. And that was because she committed herself voluntarily. Like Dr. L said, it’s probably just being human than trying to label yourself with something that isn’t more than likely there.
Outside of mild OCD, or it’s just my personality that I like things clean, neat and organized, I have never been diagnosed or suffered a mental illness.
I also think Dr L made a good point about non-limerents trying to understand limerence. To understand it, they need to label it, or associate it with something they can “blame” it for. Or call it an emotional affair or an obsession, or stalking. I think that’s why Dr L is always on point so well. He was blessed with mutual limerence. But also suffered a one-sided limerent episode.
Also, no one should ever listen to anyone with any kind of seriousness on tick tok. 🙂 Or twitter, even, for that matter.
I suffered so much inwardly in the past when they started calling this “stalking.” I fought back against the label for harmless people. It’s validating to finally see this conversation.
To Serial:
Tell me about it. I was trying to explain my limerence to a girlfriend who doesn’t understand, and the first thing she came up with was “stalker.”
OMG. I am so NOT. I posted on another thread that I just joined Instagram to watch a video that somebody sent me, because I have no interest otherwise. LO’s picture popped up unexpectedly as a suggested person to follow and I was startled. The photo looked nothing like the person I know, and I was put off. I immediately cancelled my Instagram account after watching my friend’s video. The idea of following LO on Instagram nauseates me.
Miss Marcia,
The other coffee house is closed, so moving our chat here.
“There’s no way a guy who looks like that and is available is going to be exclusive with a married woman.”
At beginning, she just intended a casual fling, but the more she met him up, the more she craved an exclusive affair without her fully awareness. LE took place without her knowing what it was, of course.
“You couldn’t discuss it with her? After all this time?”
COO is not a culture of “talking a talk”, like chatty Americans 🙄. It’s a getting-things done, doer’s culture. Moreover, Mom is not the person who would admit any mistakes, even her cooking that my dog refused to eat once. For half an hour, she’d give you reasons why her meal of that day was so bad. What’s the point to talk about her immoral affairs that made both my Dad and me “to pay for” in one way or another❓It’s in her past, nothing she says or does now would make a slight dent in my life.
“I’m certainly not the only person who’s looking for something beyond the every day. About every damn poster on here is. 🙂”
My lady, please speak for yourself. 😀 I’m NOT one of your “damn posters”. I was in deep depression and mourning when LE7 took place. When I came here, I was looking for information. Now, LE and my Longing are gone, I’m more determined to make my everyday more meaningful and fulfilling — to look at “the old” with new mental eyes/lens; to make something new out of routines — Esther Parel.
The type of stimulus you’ve been “raving” about does not interest me one bit. In the past, I never actively searched for it, all Glimmers took place in the midst of my living, unhappily or joyfully. As I said before, I was fully prepared to live alone until my death. But if a romance and possible lasting connection come along my “odd” path unexpectedly, I will certainly welcome it. I still have an ability to tango….
[“The pop idea of “madly in love” is so narrow and cannot be sustained constantly.”]
“No. It has a shelf life. 1 -2 years, if you’re lucky.”
The madder, the shorter. So “mildly in love” with logical mind intact might be a way to go…. But one could choose degree of to love and to be loved with concrete behaviors, which can generate/germinate solid loving emotions. Then loving emotions could lead more loving actions. It’s spiraling up cycle. For some people, “in love” could take place later in interactions.
”In the beginning you can. But as I’ve written, it doesn’t last. It can’t. It’s Mother Nature’s way of getting people together to procreate. Once there’s been enough time for that to happen, there’s no longer a biological reason for it.”
That’s why it’s unwise to go only after glimmer. One needs to build a solid friendship before the “mad in love” fades away. When two have deep mental and emotional intimacy, the connection could last a lifetime, though not guaranteed. Both sides must work to make romantic seeds to grow and fruit.
“What LO in the history of limerence has ever done this? Limerence makes limerents selfish, not giving.”
My dear, you’re generalizing here again based on your own experiences. I have two long-distance limerent friends w/o SO for decades (one older, one younger). When they were single/divorced, one would call me 1~2 am (okay) to chat and the other tried to “hint” me into a jacuzzi with him (not okay). We always get together w/o their SO when they visit my town or me theirs (they always paid 😆 ).
I took a look into their eyes, I knew they cared and still care. But I never had or able to cultivate that Glimmer for them, and they always knew it thus never declared their feelings. I did/do not know what in me that sustained in them. Both are good looking living in CA and are my friends, probably for life. I only see one twice a year and the other one once every few years.
“Yes, it’s just the ones who follow … I don’t want. 🙂”
Then, perhaps think about why those unwanted ones followed? Also, 1/100 percent followers might be whom you’d want. Again, my approach would be to focus on my own purposeful living, growth and NOT in “hunt” of men.
“I don’t agree. She’s living as she wants to. I would love to be able to do that. Have sex like a man. Enjoy it for the moment and for what it is and move on.”
First of all, in this highly imperfect life on earth, one can’t just live/follow whatever one wants; if one gets whatever one wants, s/he gets bored. Paradoxically, lasting happiness does not go to those who just recklessly or constantly does/gets what s/he desires, particularly in casual sex. I would not befriend or even deal with Samantha type, no time to waste with her kind.
Secondly, human beings are not “lower” mammals who are easily content with basic biological needs fulfilled. Having sex without being affected mentally/emotionally OR being fulfilled/happy ever after is extremely rare and impossible❗️ Examine those libertine’s life, you’d see what lies behind it — Movie “The Libertine” by Johnny Depp. The character is hideous and pathetic.
“I would have remembered him. A beautiful man. 🙂”
I meant that I did not remember anything Jane Fond act in the movie. I have a small collection of Alan Delon’s work. In the past, I thought he’s the most beautiful man in the world (I briefly dated a film maker in Paris who looked like him); lately when taking another look at him, some of his characters are also vain, shallow, or whinny… He’s known for his bad temper and a kind of “lone wolf” in reality. After several gorgeous European wives, he settled with a Japanese woman for a few years until his recent death.
“Unfortunately, you’re moving into the colder months. Maybe it’s not so bad when it isn’t raining ?”
Yes. I’d prefer dry snow to damp rain which makes my old injuries aching. The city is simply gorgeous in Spring, Summer and Fall. 💕 I’m surrounded by three parks with tons of trees and all types of services in a residential area. The business area of the downtown and midtown is hideously noisy and “inhuman”….
Somehow, I’ve got into this wired sleeping pattern: bed early and rise early, with a better efficiency and calmer mood even with massy dreams. The deep night is the time one intimately feels and speaks with one’s soul… All the world’s “red 🔴 dust”— tangibles, do NOT exist; and Imagination could fly 🪽 and soar… 🦋
Miss Snow,
“At beginning, she just intended a casual fling, but the more she met him up, the more she craved an exclusive affair without her fully awareness. ”
She’s a woman. As a general rule, women will start to have feelings if they hook up with the man repeatedly.
“COO is not a culture of “talking a talk”, like chatty Americans 🙄.”
Not all Americans are like that. In a lot of families, nothing much is discussed.
“What’s the point to talk about her immoral affairs that made both my Dad and me “to pay for” in one way or another❓”
If you wanted to know or if it affected you. But if she’s not one to admit to anything, there’s probably no point.
“My lady, please speak for yourself. 😀 I’m NOT one of your “damn posters”. ”
Yes, yes, yes. You’ve mentioned this. 🙂 But when you were limerent …
“But if a romance and possible lasting connection come along my “odd” path unexpectedly, I will certainly welcome it. I still have an ability to tango….”
Whenever I leave it to chance, the person is always someone else’s boyfriend. 🙂
“But one could choose degree of to love and to be loved with concrete behaviors”
I’m not sure you can choose the degree you’re loved. That’s kind of up to the other person.
“For some people, “in love” could take place later in interactions.”
True
“That’s why it’s unwise to go only after glimmer. One needs to build a solid friendship before the “mad in love” fades away. ”
True. If you want it to last, you have to slow things down and get to know the person before acting too quickly/impulsively on the glimmer.
“My dear, you’re generalizing here again based on your own experiences.”
My dear, you do the same thing. 🙂 I’m basing it on this site, so it’s not just my experience.
“I took a look into their eyes, I knew they cared and still care. But I never had or able to cultivate that Glimmer for them, and they always knew it thus never declared their feelings.”
But if one tried to get you into a jacuzzi … he wasn’t a good limerent. It sounds like he was hedging his bets … hoping you’d change your mind.
“Then, perhaps think about why those unwanted ones followed?”
They’re not LOs. I’m relaxed around them.
“First of all, in this highly imperfect life on earth, one can’t just live/follow whatever one wants”
Why not?
“Paradoxically, lasting happiness does not go to those who just recklessly or constantly does/gets what s/he desires, particularly in casual sex. ”
This is your opinion about your life. IMO, if she enjoys casual sex and both sides are ok about what they’re getting into … I think it’s fine.
“Having sex without being affected mentally/emotionally OR being fulfilled/happy ever after is extremely rare and impossible❗️”
You’re projecting. And in the last season of the first series, she does have a long-term relationship. Although in the first movie, it ends. She’s not someone who’s going to stay with one person for a long time.
Oh … in real life, Kim Cattrall just got married. She’s 69. He’s 55. I love it. 🙂
“lately when taking another look at him, some of his characters are also vain, shallow, or whinny…”
Most definitely. He played in the first movie version of the book “The Talented Mr. Ripley. ” The character is a sociopath.
“Yes. I’d prefer dry snow to damp rain which makes my old injuries aching. The city is simply gorgeous in Spring, Summer and Fall. 💕 ”
You live in one of the coolest cities in the world, but, yes, sometimes the weather isn’t great.
“Somehow, I’ve got into this wired sleeping pattern: bed early and rise early, with a better efficiency and calmer mood even with massy dreams. ”
It’s probably better for your circadian rhythms, if you go to bed early.
Miss Marcia,
“She’s a woman. As a general rule, women will start to have feelings if they hook up with the man repeatedly.”
Based on your statement and a biological truth, there would be no permanent Samantha (who also fell in with a much younger waiter/actor in some season)
“Not all Americans are like that. In a lot of families, nothing much is discussed.”
I meant in general among friends, colleagues, acquaints, not just within families. How much nonsense or triviality all Social medias are rambling about? 😓 That’s why I never joined any other blog or group, never had Twitter or Tic Tok, and cancelled all my instagram accounts. COO and America are on the two extreme ends — the former more actions without words; the latter more words without actions! 🙄 Where is the balance?
“If you wanted to know or if it affected you. But if she’s not one to admit to anything, there’s probably no point.”
No, I don’t care about knowing, zero interests, that’s her life. Moreover, it stopped affecting me a long while ago. There is amount of physical and mental sufferings in COO beyond all of you could ever imagine on a visceral level❗️But majority of people over there are resilient and know how to move on psychologically.
Since young, we expected, watched, and accepted that life is imperfect, shitty things happen all the time, by luck or by choice. Western romanticism makes a lot of people believe (and pursue in vain) some kind of Utopia of human life could be reached — a FAT chance with those flaws of human natures!
“Yes, yes, yes. You’ve mentioned this. 🙂 But when you were limerent …”
Not with me even when I was actively limerent. In every single “LE”, I wasn’t looking for novelty or stimulus, but a surrogate “mother” (in men). I fell in LE deeper in the last one due to the sudden loss of my Dad and a bad depression prior to it.
“Whenever I leave it to chance, the person is always someone else’s boyfriend. 🙂”
Glimmer only took place WHENEVER I was truly (in mind) leaving everything to fate. While actively searching through dating app, NO glimmer ever happened, but a bunch of frigging liars with an existing gf, fiancé, and even wife. I could write a book of lies based on their beautifully deceiving words. 😡
“I’m not sure you can choose the degree you’re loved. That’s kind of up to the other person.”
I meant how much one wants to accept. For me, giving is more gratifying, but one cannot just endlessly give without receiving. No one should be a Jesus Christ, nor a Don Juan in the path of a lasting romantic connection. It needs to be a harmonious, satisfying tango, which would take time and effort to practice.
“True. If you want it to last, you have to slow things down and get to know the person before acting too quickly/impulsively on the glimmer.”
🆎 true! We talked about glimmer and compatibility before. Based on some philosophy and psychology, some compatibilities can be built later after mutual glimmers take place and during mutual efforts to nurture the seed of romance+friendship; I firmly believe that a separation of two would NOT work‼️
“My dear, you do the same thing. 🙂 I’m basing it on this site, so it’s not just my experience.”
Yeah, I’ve never met so many “soft spines” in one place… 😀. I begin to doubt whether I belong to limerent tribe at all❗️🤔 The world would have ended a long time ago if without the other half of non-limerent tribe! 😆
“But if one tried to get you into a jacuzzi … he wasn’t a good limerent. It sounds like he was hedging his bets … hoping you’d change your mind.”
That happened when he was divorced between his marriages. As you say, he and even his mother were hopping that I’d change my mind over years. 🙃 Both limerents are in their 3rd marriage ; both are highly functional limerents — meaning they didn’t become “paralyzed” during their LEs. And I actually know why I could not cultivate my glimmer for them; there are compatibility issues — my subconscious 👁️ was not that blind.
“They’re not LOs. I’m relaxed around them.”
Wow, you have time and energy for them! For me, it’s either zero or 💯, if they were not from the old friends or classmates basket.
{“First of all, in this highly imperfect life on earth, one can’t just live/follow whatever one wants”}
“Why not?”
I cannot believe such a question comes out of your pretty 👄 😳!
1. That’s extremely selfish or self-centered! Without giving but only taking, one cannot be happy — a simple psychological balance. We don’t need everyone to become a walking Christ/buddha, but a healthy living has to be giving and taking combined or in seesaw.
2. if you actually get whatever you wand/desire, you’d be bored out of your mind and probably want to pluck your hair out, like those overnight Startup millionaires. We humans are simply NOT chimps, able to be idol and content with basic physical needs.
3. As you have stressed, we humans are social animals, we can’t live alone but in communities. Without some contribution (one’s work) to others and the society that support our physical survival and mental/emotional needs, one would be “kicked out” of a group and feel useless or terribly lonely.
“This is your opinion about your life. IMO, if she enjoys casual sex and both sides are ok about what they’re getting into … I think it’s fine.”
NO, my opinion is not just based on my life, but countless cases in reality. Again, we are not “lowly” mammals living just for animalistic needs, which is meaningless and boring but necessary for surviving or reproducing. I don’t understand why you’re so “ravenous” of casual sex which yourself is even unable to have/enjoy long ‼️ It seems that LE sex is mostly desirous to you and some others.
As we REPEATEDLY discussed that human sexual activity is not as simple as monkeys, soon or later, emotions would be kicked in both for men and women, due to the chemical reactions in the brain induced by sexual activities or physical intimacy. Why a sex “revolution” from 60s has brought men to liberated chimps 🙄 ‼️ Has our sexuality really evolved❓
“You’re projecting. And in the last season of the first series, she does have a long-term relationship. Although in the first movie, it ends. She’s not someone who’s going to stay with one person for a long time.”
Are you talking about Samantha? I HAVE NO further INTERESTs talking about her! And any meaningless/emotionless sex is just DISGUSTING 🤢 to me, PERIOD 🔴! If one more word about causal sex, you’ll never get to taste my hotpot 🍲 and I’m out of LwL‼️
“Kim Cattrall just got married. She’s 69. He’s 55. I love it. 🙂”
Good for her as herself❗️ I don’t follow celebrity’s life and only learned accidentally about her divorce after the series ended.
“You live in one of the coolest cities in the world, but, yes, sometimes the weather isn’t great.”
Outsiders have wide, wild imaginations about the city in all directions❗️ I appreciate the city especially when traveling outside of it, because of a comparison with other places. It can be lonely if one does not know how to fulfill one’s small life with limited means. I can live as an urban “hermit” comfortably here.
“It’s probably better for your circadian rhythms, if you go to bed early.”
I get similar amount of sleep whether going to bed early or late, which is good. But with a short nap in the early evening, my brain functions better, particularly in the dead night 🌌 .
My tiredness comes arbitrarily, which sometimes was caused simply by very busy dreams/nightmares. But it is ultimately beneficial for the Unconscious to show/relieve my worries/concerns, negative/scary imaginations through vivid images and detailed narratives. Occasionally, Stoical preparation for the worst makes me paranoid and paralyzed….
With my past sufferings and their impact, I could never be as carefree or romantic as you guys…. However, I am able to envision and trust sheer imaginations for a time being, to regulate my mood or use them as my guides for the present and future endeavors❓
The clip (1:00) tells some truths, at least to me in the past, before that longing is gone…
https://youtube.com/shorts/V2pDQ9ee0fA?si=d4-KUJbtrlslJCKl — The True Cause of Obsessive Thinking
https://youtube.com/shorts/KS_H8ryMzOQ?si=P1jhzzj0PDtlJbSf — In Loving you, I learned to Love Myself | Esther Perel
https://youtube.com/shorts/rNXqsFas-NU?si=J6r0YxFoXrDAOHwO — “It’s Sex and Relationships, Not sex OR relationships” | Esther Perel
https://youtu.be/jsPsPMM1ZLs?si=xWAVy6cL1rCcIsuL —
Your Two Options in Love After a Bad Childhood
https://youtube.com/shorts/DMZEOWbgscE?si=6R0s1YomQlh7baqj — Why Are Small Pleasures Are a Big Deal
https://youtube.com/shorts/kwx9V1wHoRA?si=XtH2qyhtNHKgkz1z — Is Emotional maturity the same as emotional intelligence?
https://youtu.be/nKee93AC408?si=Agv7_OWKw3wyh9ja — How All Meanness is Inherited
Red Quiet, Section 3
Mei-mei Berssenbrugge
1947 –
Our conversation is a wing below my consciousness, like organization in blowing cloth, eddies of water, its order of light on film with no lens.
A higher resonance of story finds its way to higher organization: data swirl into group dreams.
Then story surfaces, as if recognized; flies buzzing in your room suddenly translate to “Oh! You’re crying!”
So, here I hug the old person, who’s not “light” until I embrace him.
My happiness at seeing him, my French suit constitute at the interface of wing and occasion.
Postulate whether the friendship is fulfilling.
Reduce by small increments your worry about the nature of compassion or the chill of emotional identification among girlfriends, your wish to be held in the consciousness of another, like a person waiting for you to wake.
Postulate the wave nature of wanting him to wait (white space) and the quanta of fractal conflict, point to point, along the outline of a petal, shore from a small boat.
Words spoken with force create particles.
He calls the location of accidents a morphic field; their recurrence is resonance, as of an archetype with the vibration of a seed.
My last thoughts were bitter and helpless.
Friends witnessing grief enter your consciousness, illuminating your form, so quiet comes.
From “Fairies”
Mei-mei Berssenbrugge
1947 –
2
Fairies begin their day by coming together a moment and sharing joy.
They love the feeling, which dew on the leaves draws from grass, lilacs and the response of meadow and flowers to the dawn.
Diminutive green sylphs now run in the grass, whose growth seems intimately associated with theirs, a single line of concentration.
They talk to themselves, constantly repeating, with an intensity causing their etheric doubles, grass, to vibrate as they pass, vivifying growth.
To rabbits and young children they’re visible, but I see points of light, tiny clouds of color and gleams of movement.
The lawn is covered with these flashes.
In low alyssums along a border, one exquisite, tiny being plays around stems, passing in and out of each bud.
She’s happy and feels much affection for the plants, which she regards as her own body.
The material of her actual body is loosely knit as steam or a colored gas, bright apple-green or yellow, and is very close to emotion.
Tenderness for plants shows as rose; sympathy for their growth and adaptability as flashes of emerald.
When she feels joy, her body responds all-over with a desire to be somewhere or do something for plants.
Hers is not a world of surfaces–skin, husks, bark with definite edges and identities.
Trees appear as columns of light melting into surroundings where form is discerned, but is glowing, transparent, mingling like breath.
She tends to a plant by maintaining fusion between the plant’s form and life-vitality contained within.
She works as part of nature’s massed intelligence to express the involution of awareness or consciousness into a form.
And she includes vitality, because one element of form is action.
Sprouting, branching, leafing, blossoming, crumbling to humus are all form to a fairy.
Concordance [Working backward in sleep]
Mei-mei Berssenbrugge
1947 –
Poem by Mei-mei Berssenbrugge
Working backward in sleep, the
last thing you numbed to is what
wakes you.
What if that image were Eros as
words?
What would it be like if you
contemplated my words and I felt
you?
Animals, an owl, frog, open their
eyes, and a mirror forms on the
ground.
When insight comes in a dream,
and events the next day
illuminate it, this begins your
streaming consciousness,
synchronicity, asymptotic lines
of the flights of concordances.
An owl opens its eyes in deep
woods.
For the first time, I write and you
… know me.
Milkweed I touch floats.
Escape
Elinor Wylie
1885 –1928
When foxes eat the last gold grape,
And the last white antelope is killed,
I shall stop fighting and escape
Into a little house I’ll build.
But first I’ll shrink to fairy size,
With a whisper no one understands,
Making blind moons of all your eyes,
And muddy roads of all your hands.
And you may grope for me in vain
In hollows under the mangrove root,
Or where, in apple-scented rain,
The silver wasp-nests hang like fruit.
Voices of the Air
Katherine Mansfield
1888 –1923
But then there comes that moment rare
When, for no cause that I can find,
The little voices of the air
Sound above all the sea and wind.
The sea and wind do then obey
And sighing, sighing double notes
Of double basses, content to play
A droning chord for the little throats—
The little throats that sing and rise
Up into the light with lovely ease
And a kind of magical, sweet surprise
To hear and know themselves for these—
For these little voices: the bee, the fly,
The leaf that taps, the pod that breaks,
The breeze on the grass-tops bending by,
The shrill quick sound that the insect makes.
Velvet Shoes
Elinor Wylie
1885 –1928
Let us walk in the white snow
In a soundless space;
With footsteps quiet and slow,
At a tranquil pace,
Under veils of white lace.
I shall go shod in silk,
And you in wool,
White as white cow’s milk,
More beautiful
Than the breast of a gull.
We shall walk through the still town
In a windless peace;
We shall step upon white down,
Upon silver fleece,
Upon softer than these.
We shall walk in velvet shoes:
Wherever we go
Silence will fall like dews
On white silence below.
We shall walk in the snow.
Let No Charitable Hope
Elinor Wylie
1885 –1928
Now let no charitable hope
Confuse my mind with images
Of eagle and of antelope:
I am by nature none of these.
I was, being human, born alone;
I am, being woman, hard beset;
I live by squeezing from a stone
The little nourishment I get.
In masks outrageous and austere
The years go by in single file;
But none has merited my fear,
And none has quite escaped my smile.
The Unseen Hand
He leaves a blossom on your sill,
A crimson hue, then disappears,
A silent promise, soft and still,
That someone holds your presence dear.
He is in the rhythm of your day,
A whispered tune you can’t quite place,
A sudden warmth that comes to stay,
Reflected in a fleeting space.
He watches you laugh, a melody,
And wish his voice could join the sound,
But fear keeps his true self from thee,
So signs are scattered on the ground.
A book you needed, found by chance,
A favorite candy in your bag,
A lingering, half-hidden glance,
His hidden heart begins to flag.
He is the shadow at your heel,
The breath of wind that stirs your hair,
The silent longing you might feel,
An affection too deep for words to share.
And though you search for who he is,
A ghost of feeling, light and fleet,
Know this: his heart’s a loyal lamb,
And every sign is bittersweet.
He’s but a watcher from the wings,
A quiet force you cannot see,
Until the day his courage sings,
And sets his secret feelings free.
Until that day, he’ll leave these clues,
These little echoes of his soul,
Hoping you’ll read between the hues,
And make his hidden affection feel whole.
The air grows heavy when your shadow falls,
Radiance hidden within transient walls.
Under the Moon’s pale, knowing, watchful gaze,
Time holds its breath within our silent maze.
Hearts tell the stories the lips won’t betray,
Echoes of eddies in each day.
Unseen, yet vital as the air we share,
Nearness that lingers when you are there.
Secret languages only the eyes know,
Passion’s soft ember with a glimmering glow.
Only the wind hears the whispers I keep,
Kettle whistled in the dreams while I sleep.
Eternity woven in the moments we steal,
New truths the silence will one day reveal.
Dr. L,
Just wanted to send you an end-of-week congratulations over the fact your two best-performing videos are continuing to do well. The video “Don’t Fight It” has now cracked the top seven and “7 Signs of Limerence” is approaching 200k views.
In the comments section of “7 Signs…”, someone left the comment “Jesus loves you”. This comment intrigued me. Was it left by some Christian trying to evangelise at an inappropriate moment? (My mother always picked the worst times possible to evangelise people, so I DO understand the psychology). Was it left by some Christian trying to send subliminal messages to the masses? (Find God and your limerent patterns will disappear?) Then I realised the commentator also included a time. That time was 0.00. In other words, the time refers to the first frame of your video.
In the first frame of your video, Dr. L, it appears that you have unintentionally recreated some of the most classic iconography of classic Christian art. You look exactly as Jesus looks when artists chose to depict him as “Christ, the Light of the World”. First, there’s the concerned expression on your face. Second, there’s the placement of your hands, seemingly positioned in a gesture of outreach toward the world. Third, and most importantly, there’s the subdued lighting in a darkened room that seems to surround you like a halo. Your likeness here to traditional representations of the son of God really is uncanny. 🙂
If Teika isn’t aware of this fascinating visual, maybe you could point it out to her sometime? As a believer herself, she’d probably find the coincidence rather amusing. 🙂
Thank you again for all the wonderful work you do. I am not quite comfortable yet with saying that “limerence is a behavioural addiction”. It is perhaps unwise to make any definitive statements about a topic that remains so sensitive for a lot of people. However, I am comfortable with the statement: “Limerence is analogous to a behavioural addiction”. I feel the statement “limerence is analogous to a behavioural addiction” is consistent with what you have written on the subject to date and also with what Lucy Bain has said. I feel the statement in no way contradicts the findings of Dorothy Tennov and Dr. Helen Fisher. And I feel the statement is compatible with the valuable insights offered up by such diverse figures as Dr. Joe Beam, Dr. David Perl, and Fenna van den Berg.
Speaking of Dr. David Perl, one of his favourite things to say about limerence seems to be: “Limerence is the mother of all distractions.” An interesting remark, to be sure. Makes me wonder what I needed to distract myself from for so long? (I think I just have a colourful imagination. My life was never terrible). 🤣
Another interesting conversation that arose at limerence.net is whether limerence is more of a solitary journey or a communal voyage. The consensus, led by female commentators, was that most people experience limerence as a very lonely odyssey, and not something that can really be turned into a communal activity – not that the commentariat at LwL hasn’t tried its darned hardest! (I think ordinary crushes belong more in the realm of playful social banter, etc). 🙂
I ran into LO last night, and he gave me an update on his home, which has been on the market for almost five months.
They’re not getting any offers, and the real estate agent advised him to drop the price by a million dollars, which he refuses to do.
I noticed, with some relief, that I didn’t much care about LO’s house problems, since they are all self-inflicted. His drama is all self-created, and is exhausting.
It’s hard for me to have any sympathy for him when he has done all of this to himself. Also, the house that he tried to buy on the other side of the country, just closed escrow today, to another buyer. I’m sure LO is furious, but I’m not interested enough to ask him.
I hope that my lack of interest continues. This is a good sign.
Dear Norma, that is a very good sign that you are making progress. I think my FB incident with LO and the annoyance that it didn’t fulfill me the way I thought it would a milestone for my letting go. I’m very proud of you moving forward. You are a dear woman that deserves better treatment than he gives you. Grrr … ok gotta go it’s setting in … gotta find a new dance song for us. Yeah, yeah that’ll keep me distracted.
Dear Adam:
I am all ears.
It was one year before my conception, but my folks had their record and this was my favorite song on the album. Norma the Dancing Queen. If I’d been alive to cut the rug with you on this one …
Dancing Queen— ABBA
https://youtu.be/xFrGuyw1V8s?si=RwbGME1cyrAbTuEW
To Adam:
Oh my goodness, you are young! I was about 23 when this song came out.
I am old enough to be your mother.
Where’s my Marcia?
Her and I will cut the rug to this one.. 😂😂
MJ,
“Her and I will cut the rug to this one.. 😂😂”
You and I were knee-high to a grasshopper when that song came out.
Do you think that’s another phrase that came out in 1900? 🙂
Dear Norma (or can I now call you Momma Norma?) I don’t think you’d want to be my mother. I was almost 10 months before I wanted to leave the womb. I came out 12lbs 4oz. Don’t remember how long. But suffice to say mother told me she had to return all the newborn clothes for 6 month clothes. Mother had gestational diabetes when she had me. And she did it all at home with just her primary physician. Which of course did baby deliveries too. I was born in 1977. So I might could have been actually conceived to Dancing Queen. 😁 Though knowing my folks music it was either The Carpenters, my father’s choice or Johnny Mathis, my mother’s choice. Though with my taste in music I’d like to think I was conceived to Barry White or the Isley Brothers. My mother was born in 1953 and my father in 1951.
To Adam:
Thank you for that interesting information. Your mom’s childbirth experience is nothing to be envied. Of course, I had an emergency caesarean, so that was no picnic, either.
I am in exactly the same age group as your parents.
I never liked The Carpenters, but I love Johnny Mathis. His song, “All The Time,” was played at my wedding reception for our first dance.
Adam, you’re just a year older than me, then, if that. I guess our age is probably a peak age for married limerence. I expect that Dr L is our age too, although luckily for us he was struck a few years earlier which gave him time to do the legwork to help us.
However Norma and your parents are half a generation younger than my parents, both departed now.
Dear Norma, Momma had both our boys by emergency cesarean. Our oldest was 14 weeks early and our youngest was 8 weeks early. The doc put in perspective to me that our oldest was the size and weight of a 1 liter bottle of soda. And our youngest was 5 lbs. Momma said our oldest was a double foot length breach with a prolapsed cord. You ladies are amazing.
To quote one of my favorite comedians about women he said (paraphrased) … women are amazing. They can grow a baby inside them, then by some miracle they can bring the baby into the world through their bodies and then by some miracle they can feed a baby with their bodies. And when you think about the male contribution to life, it’s really embarrassing. Yeah well I helped out for 5 seconds. Doing the one thing I think about 24/7. 😂
Cloud
I do agree that limerence, among other things, are very susceptible in middle age. Maybe some things are different for women vs men. Middle age almost seems like puberty to me. Things are going on in your head and body that you are not quite sure of. And it can be very confusing. I still wished I’d bought a sports car I couldn’t afford than fall in limerence. At least the car could reposed. Getting over limerence isn’t that easy.
Yes, of all the mid-life crisis symptoms we could have had, limerence really sucks. What’s really hard is the secrecy. You lot are the only people who know I’m going through this, except for one counsellor I had a few sessions with, not even in person.
Cloud (Strife 😁 sorry I can’t help it)
We are always here for you. From those that are still struggling (me still to some minor degree) to those over it completely.
Dr L is amazing in his perspective. I watched his latest video on 10 difficulties in limerence and when got to guilt, I was like oh boy that’s me. But he gave a good perspective on using guilt in a positive way rather than a negative way like I did. There’s no way if I hadn’t found LwL and Dr L my marriage would have lasted. I’d be chasing LO still. That kind of guilt is the wrong kind. But I guess by Dr L’s merits it’s the right kind because it maintains NC for me. He and Mrs L are lifesavers.
You’re several years younger than I am, Adam. 🙂 Dang, that’s a big baby. Even bigger than mine was. And was he ever hard to push out. Then after all the childbirthing comes menopause and all the joys—which we don’t expect because nobody used to talk about it like they do now. I swear every little weirdness I deal with now can be connected to perimenopause. And the limerence, while always present, is going like mad.
I must be the oldest one here. I certainly never expected to get hit by limerence at my age. I wasn’t even familiar with the word when it started.
I really am glad I am almost through my limerence adventure. It’s been interesting, but it sure hasn’t been fun.
To Cloud, (all are welcome to chime in!),
“What’s really hard is the secrecy. You lot are the only people who know I’m going through this …”
I gather that you’ve disclosed to neither SO nor LO; in that way, we are in a similar position. This stands in opposition to Dr L’s recommendation to married limerents, which is to disclose to SO but not LO.
I am finding the thought of disclosing to SO extremely scary, but recently have been considering changing tactics. A few things have happened recently causing me to reconsider.
For the past two months, I have been in total NC with my young, coworker LO; doing fully remote work the entire time. However, the intrusive thoughts regarding LO have not significantly abated. Additionally, the positive aspects of in person work, (socializing, networking, the exchange of ideas, etc.), have also disappeared.
Just earlier today, my wife, (who as I said doesn’t know about LO) noticed my relative recent disengagement from work, and suggested returning there at least once a week. Of course, that has the danger of reigniting the limerence, “taking it to eleven”, so to speak (with apologies to Spinal Tap).
I would like to know how many people have disclosed to LO or not, as well as their reasons for doing so. How has the experience been, and what would you do differently if given the opportunity?
Thank you for your consideration.
Sorry, I meant “disclosed to SO”.
“Knee-high to a grasshopper”
Marcia
Speaking of 1900..
Thank you for aging us again. I was probably about 10 the last time I heard someone use that phrase. So now we’re even.. 😂
MJ,
“Speaking of 1900..
Thank you for aging us again. ”
I’m not “aging” us. I just not in denial like you are. 🙂
“I was probably about 10 the last time I heard someone use that phrase. So now we’re even.. 😂”
I’m piggybacking on what you and Brother write. It’s like you were raised by your great grandparents. 🙂
Dame Marcia and MJ
I’m dreaming of when my mother and father figures have a romantic night together and you both realize you’re perfect for each other and your little boy can be like … ahhh mommy and daddy love each other.
Post this or not?! Hmmm. I’m a bit drunk. Maybe not the best post you’ve made in your life. Ah f it. Brother how much I am gonna be in trouble now?
Hi CatCyclist,
I haven’t disclosed to my SO. This is a very delicate decision and it depends much on your type of relationship, communication, etc.
The reason Dr L recommends disclosing to SO and not LO is, I guess, to create a unit with SO against limerence, not widen the breach to SO through keeping them in ignorance while disclosing to LO.
But will it create a unit? That depends on a lot of things, I think.
How would your SO react? They have to be quite mature, self-confident people to take that in their stride without questioning your marriage and trust. Could be they are devastated and angry, could be they are understanding and helpful. Could be that they will prescribe the course of action to you (change your job, never answer any text again etc) instead letting you fight limerence the way you feel is the best. Could be their hurt will be much bigger than the gain you have (finally a person who knows etc).
For me, I felt there would be too much emotional upheaval and hurting SO, I felt this was my problem alone and I had to deal with it alone (only LwL people knowing about it).
The question is of course, where is the line between dealing with your problem yourself and not burdening SO, and gaslighting.
Only you can know!
Hi CatCyclist,
I haven’t disclosed it to SO, though it has been impossible to hide some of it totally for this long, so I feel I’ve (undeliberately) left clues out there.
In my own thinking, and from what I’ve read among the LwLer collective, generally I think it is only better to disclose to SO if one or both of these two things applies:
1. The LE is really out of your control to the point that letting it continue would destroy you / your relationship with SO
2. You think (on balance of probabilities) that telling SO will allow you to improve the quality of your relationship somehow – and that that can’t be achieved in another way.
Those are massive generalities. Everyone’s SO and relationship differs. I’d ask yourself what outcome you’re hoping for if you disclose. I don’t think ‘cleansing one’s own soul’, so to speak, is enough. I think you have to think whether it is the right thing for *SO* that the discussion happens.
We tend to know our SOs pretty well. I know, almost beyond doubt, that if I told SO about my LE, she would blame herself and beat herself up for a long time, and she may well not listen for long enough for me to try to distinguish limerence from an affair (for example).
Now, you might argue I shouldn’t be second guessing how SO would react, or withholding the facts, thus taking away her agency to react in whatever d**med way she wants.
But, I have weighed up how telling her and not telling her would likely play out, based on long experiences and balance of probability.
I talked to some SOs on here about this issue in the past year and several of them said they’d rather not receieve a disclosure, if their limerent partner could end the LE by their own means. Others took the opposite view that they had the right to know.
It is quite a big genie to let out of the bottle (your head) that it is currently in.
There are definitely posters in the LwL archives whose situation improved after telling SO, but I can’t remember their details.
I told my wife about limerence the day I found LwL. The night I came home from work. But in my case my wife already voiced that she thought LO and I were having an affair. Like LaR said disclosing to a spouse/partner is case to case. In my case it was eminent. My wife at first didn’t believe it and still sided with an affair. But over the years, and posting here herself at one point has come to understand. And has been more than she should have to be supportive of me. I had an intrusive thought one night when we were cooking together, said LO’s name out loud, realized what I did and she held me in her arms while I cried about another woman. She’s too good for this old drunk. Not sure why she puts up with me sometimes.
Hello CatCyclist,
I have told my SO that I’m a bit wary of LO because I find him attractive, and have had to make some work-related decisions on the basis of not seeing too much of him. My SO is fine about it, it’s not stopped him being friends with him, and he’s not expecting me to avoid him completely. He trusts me to be grown up about it.
I don’t want to explain quite how bad it has been or about limerence to my SO, because I think that would be pretty upsetting and it would be burdening him with a problem that belongs to me.
I’m definitely not going to disclose to LO! Dr L is clear on the disadvantages of such a move. He has explained that it doesn’t provide the closure that some people hope it might.
“I’m piggybacking on what you and Brother write. It’s like you were raised by your great grandparents. 🙂”
Marcia
Adam and I are just using words and phrases that never should have put in the closet. As Men we’re probably more the stubborn type. Afterall him and I have been here quite awhile obsessing over Women we’ll never have.. If that isn’t stubborn, well then I’ll bet your bottom dollar, I don’t know what is.. 😂
MJ,
” As Men we’re probably more the stubborn type. ”
Stubborn is a nice way of putting it. 🙂
We’re getting closer to the holidays. I think you know what that means … your deadline, baby. 🙂
“We’re getting closer to the holidays. I think you know what that means … your deadline, baby. 🙂”
Marcia
Perhaps it will interest you that I just talked with her about it again. We both agree with our schedules, it will probably be easier to make happen over the holiday break. I was hoping that we could go next weekend, but she’s committed to ot on another shift. Which is fine. Again this arrangement seems to be working well for the both of us and I am taking the reigns and being plan-minded about it. Suggesting what we might do. Since you have ingrained it into my thick, stubborn skull, that a man with a plan is sexy man.. 😆
I also had an un-planned moment take place with LF last week where I pretty much decided I’m not going to be her enemy and keep being awkward around her everytime I have to work in her vicinity. Its just been too weird lately and with all her staring and then never saying anything to why she’s doing it. (Maybe just an attention grab?, validation?) It just makes me nervous and giddy, so I said enough. She sees NewGirl and I getting along and so I think that bothers her a little. I mean its such High School gamey horse$#!+, but this is where she’s at. (A part of me still thinks she’s nuts. 😆)
I also think this pleasantly surprised her because immediately her tension evaporated and she was right back to being her same old cool self she used to be around me. Calling me names and telling me to F— off..
(Our common old way of communicating 😂)
It was her bday too, so I got to heavily rib her about turning 31. Reminding her that 54 isn’t all that far away. Of course I was called a few more choice names because of that, but I didn’t mind. I made up for it by telling her happy bday and she was touched and surprised I remembered..
MJ,
“and I am taking the reigns and being plan-minded about it. Suggesting what we might do. Since you have ingrained it into my thick, stubborn skull, that a man with a plan is sexy man.. 😆”
Yes, but there’s no plan. It’s vague. A plan includes a date, time and place to meet. And it’s not usually suggested six months out, like a dental appointment. 🙂
“A part of me still thinks she’s nuts. 😆)”
Well, you know what they say about crazy women. 🙂
I would be cautious about LF. I’m glad you are getting along and the tension has lessened, but I’d keep it a work friendship. I wouldn’t text her. She doesn’t deserve that much attention from you. Unless she wants to apologize for how she treated you after you told her that personal info. And I certainly wouldn’t ask her to do something again, even if she apologizes. She’d need to be the one to initiate hanging out. You’ve already asked. The ball’s in her court. I know she’s dating someone. I’m talking about a friendship. If you were interested in a friendship outside of work. I’m not sure you are.
CatCyclist,
“The alternate (and in my opinion equally plausible) explanation is based on evolutionary theory regarding women’s fertility, which I’m sure you’ve heard of …”
It’s the same for women. I’d say (and I’m speaking in generalities) male attractants are resources and competency. And of course being attractive is a huge plus.
Dear Norma,
You are right; I’m absolutely not disclosing today!
Now, if only you could un-disclose to your LO, take away his power over you. Actually, you already have that power. We all need to learn to harness it.
Marcia,
“male attractants are resources and competency”…
Absolutely. When I was younger, I used to be annoyed by this. Now, I understand this is how the world works. I am now a Darwinian.
Regarding “competency”, it is subject to various interpretations, explaining the varied tastes of women in men.
Fertility has a narrower range of interpretation, answering the original question about the frequency of young female LOs.
CatCyclist,
“When I was younger, I used to be annoyed by this. ”
Oh, I’m more than annoyed by the fact that men my age are trying to pick up younger women. I just don’t get it. From a very practical standpoint, thousands of years of biology have to meet up with a degree of common sense. An older man who is trying to pick up much younger women has to be aware these women are at the height of their sexual power. He’s going to have a lot of competition. That’s just the reality. A multi-decade age difference is not a plus. If you look at studies, women have a tendency to prefer men right around their age. Of course there are exceptions, but how many of us are exceptions? If we’re being honest. 🙂
“Regarding “competency”, it is subject to various interpretations, explaining the varied tastes of women in men.”
I agree.
This is to CatCyclist:
I would think carefully before disclosing to your wife.
How well do you think she can handle it?
There’s another poster called New To Limerence who has told his wife, and she is handling it, but with difficulty. I haven’t seen him posting recently, so I don’t know how he’s holding up.
Other people would be in a better position to give you advice. I am just going by other situations, when I was in therapy, where the therapist always advised in favor of disclosing something, and it didn’t always work out well.
Once you tell her, you can’t un-tell her.
To Norma, Mila, Cloud, LaR and Adam,
Thank you so much for your replies; they add so much overall perspective!
A bit of background that might shed some light about what my wife knows about me and our respective vulnerabilities.
I have a long history of limerent episodes with young women in their 20’s, dating all the way back to when I was that age. I have disclosed to my wife the earlier episodes, which occurred well before our marriage.
My first post marriage episode occurred about five years into our marriage, when my wife and I were both in our mid 40’s. My LO back then was a relative of my wife, (not technically a “niece”), and was a graduate student who periodically stayed with us for extended durations. During these periods, the three of us shared most meals, whether at home or outside, and had frequent joint outings as well, to movies, etc. I definitely felt a certain sexual tension with LO (to this day, I have no idea if it was mutual), which my wife took note of — she often caught me stealing glances. Mostly, she was more amused by this than threatened, realizing that nothing physical would ever happen. Within a couple of years, she (the LO) got a boyfriend and later got married. Much to my surprise, they asked me to give a speech at their wedding, which I did; it took all of the courage I could muster to show all of my happiness and none of my sadness. This event marked a turning point in my very gradual recovery from that LE. Fifteen years later, they continue to live in our region, and we see them regularly and regularly share hugs.
Jumping forward to last year …
I have been writing at length on this blog about my new LO, again a young woman in her 20’s, since about August of this year, so I won’t repeat all the details, but recap just the most important points.
I retired from my workplace in June 2024, and my wife and my new LO, the then-intern, were both present at the retirement ceremony, where LO publicly said some very nice things about me, which at the moment made me euphoric but unfortunately put my LE into overdrive. I certainly would have introduced them had the opportunity arisen naturally, but it did not. Over the past two years, I’ve told my wife several times about my LO’s existence, as well as her extraordinary talent and sweet disposition, but not about the space she occupies in my mind.
Moving forward to early this year …
I had re-joined my old organization on a part-time basis in the spring of this year, in which I was given the option to work in an almost fully remote manner. I knew there was a possibility my LO would return as a permanent employee, but figured the chances of our paths crossing again would be quite low, since our workplace has thousands of people spanning several miles.
Then one day in the spring, completely out of the blue, my wife told me she had just had a nightmare. She had dreamt that I was having an affair with a young girl whose physical description matched the LO’s perfectly, although she couldn’t recall her face. I reassured my wife I would never leave her. Although I do not believe dreams like this can foretell the future, I nonetheless thought this turn of events was oddly timed, because I was on a steady path to recovery from this LE.
Then, a few months later, I had my own dream-quake involving the LO; but this one was euphoric. But there was still no sign of LO in real life, and I again figured my mind was playing tricks on me.
Then, two more months later, I did run into her in real life at work, setting off another euphoric episode that was not a dream, to be followed by yet another one two months later. All the while I was aiming for as limited contact as possible; the run-ins were just interruptions which upset my equilibrium. After September, because limited contact was not working, I have strived to aim for as little contact as possible.
Unfortunately, as I mentioned in my previous post, another unintended effect of working remotely was reduced engagement with my colleagues. My wife has noticed this, and has encouraged me to return to the office more frequently. Not being aware of my limerence, she obviously cannot realize that doing so would make my recovery from it more difficult. So how do I resolve this dilemma? Should I tell her why this is a bad idea? Indeed, is it a bad idea on balance?
I should also note that while our marriage had experienced a decades-long intimacy drought, it has improved dramatically in the past year. I am committed to being monogamous (which I have always been) and fully present (where I have been somewhat lacking).
Overall, I have found your accounts and suggestions enormously helpful, but am still wracked by indecision.
The prior experience with limerence, and the way my wife took it in stride, is a testament to her strength and trust in me. However, that situation was different from the current one in that she actually saw with her own eyes how it evolved, and did not have to rely solely upon my word. Therefore, as of now, I am leaning against disclosing.
Thank you so very much.
Catcyclist,
It is a difficult decision. I don’t know what I would do in your situation.
What I find interesting to ponder is why your taste in women has basically stayed at the same age as you have got older. When I was young, I thought that other young people were attractive, it was downhill from there, and older people only dated other older people because that’s what’s socially acceptable. But as I grew older, I continued only to be attracted to men around my age. The fantasy of “getting” a younger person didn’t hold appeal to me. I can appreciate the beauty of a younger person in the same way as I might a cat or a work of art, but not fancy them.
It’s a typical complaint of women that men seem to be attracted to much younger women. I’d be interested to know (without judgement) who else on this forum is attracted to people of much different ages and whether there’s a male/female divide? Or whether fantasising about much younger people is a way our brain subconsciously tries to replace something that was missing for us when we were that age?
If anybody in this forum has had a nerving experience of disclosing, its Speedwagon. (Not to his SO but to his LO.)
Once the disclosing has been put out there, it can be followed up with months or years of awkward tension between 2 people that can never really be undone.
No matter how much or how little reverie you want to apply to your LO does not matter, you are on a slippery slope if you disclose. It’s good that you’re considering NOT disclosing.
I have disclosed things to a Friend before too and while it didn’t go the way I wanted, it wasn’t a horror show either. However the dynamic between us has dramatically shifted. I just need to learn how to keep my big fat mouth shut..
Dear CatCyclist,
I wanted to chip in and say that disclosing to SO is something that I also decided against. Now that limerence is mainly in the rear-view mirror, I am very glad that I never told my SO anything. My reasons were the same as Mila and LaR, I had no intention of leaving my SO and also I figured that it was my own mess to sort out.
The fact that you disclosed to your SO previously – or she guessed – with no bad consequences is relevant. But I do think that having this happen a second time might knock your SO’s confidence, especially as you are both older now (people’s self confidence can sometimes be reduced by age).
The thing that really strikes me is that your recovery seems to be going really well until you encounter LO, then have a set-back. I mean, you’ve really been doing everything right by staying away from her. Many of us find doing the right thing for our recovery very difficult, so hats off to you for this! It seems like the bigger question for you to figure out is not whether to come clean and tell SO the ‘real reason’ that you prefer to work remotely, a little white lie about not going to the office is always possible (‘so-and’so in the office is a bit loud and so I get nothing done’). But your SO pointed out that you seem to be languishing without going in to the office. Is this because of your LE causing you to suffer a bit, which your SO has noticed, or [big difference], is it that you really are missing the old dynamics in a busy and stimulating workplace? Answering this question requires complete honesty with yourself and a bit of reflection, perhaps.
Then you might need to ask yourself whether the satisfaction you get from face time with work colleagues (apart from LO) is worth the risk of seeing her and having a set back. Maybe you could see whether it is possible to get more face time at work without running into LO, but only if that doesn’t turn the whole thing into a giant game of hide and seek, ramping up uncertainty etc.
Dear Cloud,
Thank you for your artfully posed questions/comments regarding LO’s age, and how your own experience contrasts with mine.
I have been struggling with, and experiencing shame, regarding this issue for the greater part of the past three decades!
Now, to attempt to answer your question. From high school to two years beyond my undergraduate years (ages 15-24), I had a succession of unrequited loves, and due to this, was rather miserable. At least one of them — the gold standard — lives on in my head in a mostly dormant fashion, and I quit despairing over her eons ago. Even so, never having experienced mutual romantic love, I came to believe that I was fundamentally unattractive, or at best regarded by women as asexual.
Today, whenever a woman, especially a young woman, expresses a level of interest in me that indicates even a slight possibility that she is attracted to me, I develop at least a mild crush on her. If she also has all of the traits I admire (primarily intelligence and kindness), in addition to features I am ashamed of (my attraction to much younger women), the crush turns into all-out limerence. In a nutshell, this is my psychoanalytic explanation: In developing unwanted limerence for younger women (who are frequently graduate students), I am trying to requite my past unrequited loves.
The alternate (and in my opinion equally plausible) explanation is based on evolutionary theory regarding women’s fertility, which I’m sure you’ve heard of …
My therapist, who is an attractive woman in her 50’s, seems to favor the evolutionary theory explanation over the psychoanalytic one. Her therapeutic style is cognitive-behavioral, as opposed to psycholanalytic. She is more interested in formulating our actions going forward than in analyzing the past, which she sees as tantamount to rumination.
I hope that I’ve answered at least some of your questions. You see, I do not WANT to be limerent for younger LOs. I’ve been trying to steer my attraction towards my wife, and have had some measure of success recently.
Hi CatCyclist,
thanks for the details!
While your SO reacted ok on your last LE, I wouldn’t just assume she would react the same way now. Her dream shows that it bothered her more than you might have noticed.
I would consider it really carefully.
Bewitched pointed something out that I had wanted to address too, but somehow forgot:
do you miss your workplace and personal interaction with colleagues, going out of the house for work etc, completely aside from LO related issues?
Me, I was always determined not to let limerence wreck or reduce my life even more, i.e. not let it hinder me to go/participate in stuff that I really wanted to go to (unrelated to LO).
So maybe it’s not good to let limerence shove you into the not- socializing corner?
You just have to be sure that your secret motivation to go to work wouldn’t be to see LO.
But then, to languish at home and deny myself human contact because of LO would personally sit wrong with me and I would just go to „show limerence“, but maybe that is completely the wrong approach for you.
I might have used a wrong turn of phrase, not being a native speaker- I meant I would go to work simply to defy limerence and not let it control my life (of course only if I really wanted to go and just didn’t dare because of LO)
CatCyclist,
To piggyback a bit on Bewitched and Mila’s points – I too admire your resolve in staying away from work to keep NC with LO.
I tried that same course of action as much as I could for several weeks, until it got a bit silly. People who have been here on LwL a while will remember it contibuted to quite a miserable spell for me. It only got better once I faced it a bit and got back to more onsite working. Rather than try to play cat and mouse with LO, the outcome was that I convinced myself that I could be in the environment with her at work without it causing an
too much distress (most of the time, but that’s Ok for now). I’ve been a lot better since I hit that equilibrium. But I needed exposure to hit it.
The trick for you is to
convince yourself of something similar. She will be there but does she have to *get* to you so much?
It’s as the others have said here – and only you’ll know the answer – there is a balance to strike between LO’s effect on your equilibrium, and the effects of being isolated from everyone / everything else at work too.
Isn’t there also a danger that if you save it up for once in a blue moon, then it becomes a ‘bigger event’ each time?
CatCyclist “I hope that I’ve answered at least some of your questions. You see, I do not WANT to be limerent for younger LOs.”
Yes, I realise this and I can see it causes you a lot of pain and feelings of guilt. It sounds as though you’ve already been trying to understand it in your sessions with your therapist and haven’t really come to any conclusions yet. Your explanation about unhappy formative years with successive unrequited loves is certainly plausible to me.
Although there’s still a way to go towards recovery from your current Limerent Episode, it does sound as though you have made some progress. Do you feel as though working through Dr L’s materials has got you any further on towards freedom from limerence in general?
To Bewitched, Mila, and LaR,
Bewitched,
I am coming to agree with you that “it is my own mess to sort out”, and that I should not do anything to impose an unnecessary psychological burden on my wife.
“The thing that really strikes me is that your recovery seems to be going really well until you encounter LO, then have a set-back. I mean, you’ve really been doing everything right by staying away from her.”
There are a few key factors accounting for the difference between my LE approach/trajectory with those of others on this site. When I first met her along with the three other interns in June 2023, it was super obvious how young she was, so it was important for me not to take advantage of her in any way. Initially, the idea of having a crush on her seemed absurd, but within weeks, I could not explain to myself why my heart would race everytime I spoke to her, and I could no longer deny it to myself. So, I started to “ride the brakes”, even as our bond slowly strengthened. As a result, I never got in as deep as many others on this site.
“a little white lie about not going to the office is always possible …”
That is a great way to frame it; I may try to guide my approach.
“Is this because of your LE causing you to suffer a bit, which your SO has noticed, or [big difference], is it that you really are missing the old dynamics in a busy and stimulating workplace?”
It is really a little bit of both. Well, the former is self evident (to me but not to SO). The latter is evident to both me and my SO. How can I be so sure? I was really enjoying my once weekly trips to the office between March (when I started my part-time venture) and July (when LO returned to work), and my wife noticed this too.
Mila,
“I was always determined not to let limerence wreck or reduce my life even more, i.e. not let it hinder me to go/participate in stuff that I really wanted to go to (unrelated to LO)”
Mila and LaR,
This is sort of the approach I tried in July through September, but experienced periods of distress, along with bursts of euphoria and also more normal levels/sources of pleasure/satisfaction. Now, with the essentially NC approach, I am still experiencing the distress, but not the satisfaction. I am still trying to find the right balance. All or nothing thinking might not be the right way.
LaR,
“Isn’t there also a danger that if you save it up for once in a blue moon, then it becomes a ‘bigger event’ each time?”.
LaR, you absolutely nailed it! In fact, your words are true in a really broad sense!
Let me explain. Up until I retired last year, I had come to realize that I was experiencing a crush, but I was not experiencing an internal earthquake every few months. During that time, over the summers, I would talk to her around once or twice a week, but only briefly — rarely more than 5-10 minutes at a time. The idea of no contact had not yet entered my lexicon. It was only after my retirement that I had to confront my grief of probably never seeing her again. The tried and true remedy for getting over a crush, even in non-limerence-aware circles, is no contact. And after several months, the strategy appeared to be paying off — I was experiencing a return to normalcy, and everyone noted how much happier I seemed.
However, when she unexpectedly returned to work this summer, there was a huge bursting of the bubble. For the first time, I felt certain that this girl has a crush on me. She remembers everything about me, all of our exchanges. I am not dreaming this. The feelings are mutual and they are real … Now, I know that us limerents are warned not to get inside LO’s head, but … you had to be there!
And the bubble burst again two months ago. And now, it has been two months after that …
With apologies to the reader …
To CatCyclist:
After reading all of the replies and your comments, I feel that you should wait before telling your wife anything.
The fact that you are so hesitant should tell you something.
Once it’s done, you can’t control the fallout from your disclosure.
You might tell yourself, “I don’t have to disclose to my wife TODAY.”
To Cloud,
I do believe that Dr L has vastly increased my understanding of the phenomenon. He undoubtedly has among the best resources and recovery strategies.
When I first joined this summer, I was hoping for a relatively quick recovery, perhaps by the end of this year. Now I realize perhaps my goals were too ambitious, and maybe I’ve been “trying too hard” regarding no contact, which may have backfired in a work environment — see my earlier post.
Thanks for your sympathy.
By the way, thanks for your comments with regard to appreciating cats’ beauty. I will gladly accept the compliment!
This is to CatCyclist regarding your reply to me up above.
I have no idea how to get this to post in the correct place.
I don’t regret disclosing to LO. We’re both single, after all.
I felt a tremendous amount of fear and tension before I told him. I was relieved that he was so accepting. In fact, he gave me a little talk about how “tolerant” he is toward other people’s quirks. I don’t know if I see him as such, but HE certainly believes he is tolerant. I don’t think he understands how deep my emotions run, and it’s just as well if he doesn’t.
I don’t feel my disclosing to him gives him power over me. He has never attempted to manipulate me. My own emotions give him power over me, yes, but I have done all of that to myself.
I hug him and kiss him when I see him, and there is a certain level of comfort that he knows how I feel.
And getting back to your problem, I would just say to myself, “I don’t have to disclose TODAY.” Do it every day until you feel like you need to make a different choice.
How to know if your wife is listening to you or not “Mommy I got the frozen dinners you wanted.” No response or a “huh?” Throws hands, she heard you.
I have realized that I need to get from “everything he does is magic” to “everything he does is bullsh*t.”
I’m making pretty good progress.
“You can anything that you desire.”
America— You Can Do Magic
https://youtu.be/tt4cR9szMS8?si=bwe68QkwGKqx7VaF
To Adam:
I don’t feel very magical, nor do I think LO is anymore, either.
He is consumed with his house issues. In his business, architecture and interior design are what make his little Grinch heart go pitter-patter.
Nothing I have ever said or done resonates with him to any degree.
You magically got my attention since you have been here Dear Norma. Don’t sell yourself short. 😉
And in regards to LO, I am feeling that, as well. It’s almost quieting and comforting rather than being constantly in the chaos of limerence. We’ll both walk through this dear Norma, together, hand in hand.
Dear Adam:
Thank you for being so nice. Your sweet comments warm my heart.
Keeping on the theme:
“Every Little Thing She Does Is Magic ” – The Police
https://youtu.be/aENX1Sf3fgQ?si=o9tIgbnkLBf3GSNq
Here’s one for when you make the transition and seemingly inevitable Self-loathing that follows.
“I Hate Myself for Loving You” – Joan Jett
https://youtu.be/bpNw7jYkbVc?si=C6THQ0n0LwGwFgQx
To L.E.:
I was actually listening to that song by The Police earlier when I realized how much I was improving.
I used to feel that way about LO. Now, not so much.