The monthly trip to the LwL virtual coffeehouse is here.
This week I just have a few announcements for the patrons before the conversations kick off.
First, thanks to everyone who has contributed to the post on your biggest limerence problems. Some gems in there, and some patterns and repeating themes are showing up. Exactly what I’d hoped for. Keep them coming!
Second, I have a new blog post over at Psychology Today, all about the effects of oxytocin and the surprising outcomes of human studies when people snorted oxytocin in controlled trials. Check it out here.
Third, the latest YouTube video is all about the neuroscience of Uncertainty and how it drives romantic obsession:
OK, that’s it for the news. Over to you folks for chats and shenanigans…
Hi guys,
I’ll start, I guess.
The reason I’m here:
My LO is a manipulative, strange, close colleague and a dramatic, angry Rebel Rockstar King who is also some kind of politician in our workers’ council. He likes to put himself above people and can say very hurtful things. (“Why should I shut myself up? Why?” or “People who do not fight for their rights aren’t worth of any rights!”) Our bosses hate him but he cannot be fired btw.
LO and me had really lovely interactions mixed with cruel arguments for the first 9 months. You couldn’t even imagine how charming, but also how cold and mean a single person can be… and then I gave in and let him nearly win. LO and I hug on special occasions.
But let’s start in order:
Well, bonding… LO bonded with me in a very clever way.
I think I’m able to bond with people in a healthy way as my marriage is free of drama while being emotional at the same time. My family was always there for me, outright too often. I’m a thirty-something woman, married to my husband, no kids yet (but planned), joking, intellectual, over-thinking, a little frank but also capable of understatement. And limerent š
I always fear that people think I’m annoying. I am so open that I can tell people 10.000 things when they talk to me and it took my whole adolescence to find the right balance. Needless to say, some people found me annoying and pulled back. My husband never did. He’s friendly, shy and the most loving man of the universe. He would give his life for me. He avoids conflicts at first sight, but stands up to others and gives his opinion at second sight when necessary. I think I was a little limerent for my husband. He is a non-limerent btw, but my limerence didn’t get so deep, it turned into love within a year and I didn’t even enjoy the rush š
Maybe I bond very easily, my husband is also able to bond with nearly everyone and is “everybody’s darling”. Nearly everyone likes my husband because he is innocent and honest.
LO is the opposite, he acts like a civil rights activist or tiger that tasted blood. I work with him. LO is 29 years my senior. My LO found me annoying from time to time and turned me out of his office (which is ok), but people find him more annoying than me. 90 % of my other colleagues do the bare minimum when having to interact with him and turn their backs on him when business is done, nearly running away from him when he tries to talk to them. (Of course, it will be political things or analysing the shortcomings of our bosses. This sounds like a caricature, but it can be really hard.) LO can be funny, witty, loyal, courageous and protecting, but also very aggressive, dark and revenge-seeking. I didn’t turn my back on him because I knew how it felt. LO is 62, turns 63 in August and developed some kind of wisdom but also acts like a teenager when things don’t go his way. LO is also married. His wife is the same age and doesn’t know that he turned her into his puppet. She doesn’t believe everything he says and doesn’t do everything he wants, but they will never separate. They have three adult sons.
Somehow, I fall for rebels. Powerful people who are free, misunderstood and disadvantaged are my weak point. I identify with them because I was quite bullied in school and wished I was free and unbreakable and powerful. But I never was. I KNOW I should act on a superficial level but my LO was too enticing to bond with. I feel like he “seduced me in an intellectual way”. LO is really, really bitter and suffers from some kind of mental disorder. His mental illness didn’t push me back because my parents also suffered from depression (and recovered from it). They did it. I thought I could “fix” LO and end his suffering. I thought I could turn my radicalist LO into a normal man who got a few things wrong. Of course, I was kidding myself. People told me he had always been this way, lies a lot and is two-faced. Too late. I already adored his charisma. LO is way more destructive than I could ever be. LO is a radicalist and tries to turn me into a radicalist as well. He never succeeded.
I had just a few friends after moving in with my husband. I wanted LO and me to become friends, “job-pals”. I never wanted a romance, at least not consciously. Dr. L taught me afterwards that my brain wanted a romance but no rational thoughts are involved in this circle š I started to call my LO “pal” and he just stuck with calling me by my name. LO acts like we’re best friends but I don’t think we are, he tries to manipulate everyone. (Of course he would never admit it openly.) LO is capable of empathy, but he uses it for his own gains. Being a limerent, I gave him plenty of opportunities to study me. LO learned very quickly, pulled me in with an irresistible, charming warmth, did nearly everything for me on the job when I did everything for him, left me hanging there, got cold and ignored me when I displeased him, stopped me from moving on and entangled me in his political games. (āNo one tells me anything. I wonder whetherā¦?ā And I went and found out what he wanted to make him happy.) LO conditioned me. I don’t say itās all his fault, it takes two. Maybe he didn’t really want to condition me and took what I offered. I didn’t notice at first and I’m very self-reflected. He rewarded me with the care of three uncles at once when I fulfilled his wishes.
It built up, up, up and turned into a rush, I was addicted to my dear LO. Only my husband’s love could match the heights. My husband and I talk about everything, but it was my free will to tell my husband who was continously annoyed to hear what “the jerk” said on the job. Having deep discussions with LO felt like having sex. LO didn’t even touch me, but the feeling was the same. LO looked at me and he knew. I’m certain he knew and he clearly enjoyed my devotion. I was so ashamed and tried to move on once in a while, but LO didn’t want to give up the talks and pulled me back in. 4 or 5 times. I felt like a failure, and limerence became a burden.
I was ready to shake it off, but I didn’t know how. Pure willpower did not help me in the long term.
My husband was so hurt when I told him about the rush and about my efforts to fight the rush. But my husband supported me all the way (his mother was addicted to a form of gambling, so he is on my side).
The rush really died down 1,5 years later when I read Dr. L’s book and kind of disclosed. I told LO PEOPLE thought he wanted to have sex with me and we both laughed and the rush was gone. It wasn’t even a lie because that’s what my (real) best, intellectual pal told me. My best pal is like my older brother, I’m so glad to have found a real friendship. Without my best pal, it would have been a lot harder to kick my limerence. My best pal gives me the friendship I wanted to form with LO. I’m not limerent for my best pal. I also found some other friends who support me.
My husband supports me where he can. But my husband cannot save me from limerence. I have to save myself. Iām kicking my limerence right now with the help of a book named āNon-Smoker in 120 minutesā, written by a famous hypnotist named Jan Becker. I never smoked a single cigarette in my life but when I change the wording to “I’m free of obsession”, it works. Essentially, limerence is an addiction, Dr. L said. I lost my āhungerā to interact with LO as often as I can. I went low contact, still work with him and still like him after all he has done. This book is no miracle cure. I was talking to LO four times on a (work-)day and I talk to him two times a week now.
No WhatsApp š (See my post on āTell me your biggest limerence problemsā LOL. Itās better that way.)
LO also seems to enjoy reduced contact, doesn’t feel annoyed, got even closer with me in terms of interaction quality and calmed down around me. Sometimes, he provokes me and wants to have a little argument with me, but he is just playing with me like an adult niece or goddaughter.
I know he’s not normal and Dr L taught me he’s not special. I used to tell family and friends that I would carry him on my back when it helps. Now, I don’t know.
LO’s retirement in spring 2029 will crush me down. Maybe I can show up once in a while, maybe every two months to buy a glass of honey at his home (LO’s hobby is bee-keeping). I don’t know. Let’s see.
I think I’m out of limerence or got it managed. Now I need to hold on in order to avoid relapses, I think.
Wish me luck, people š
Maybe a non-smoker book helps other participants…
THANK YOU, DR BELLAMY, and Dua Lipa’s culture newsletter “Service95” where your book was featured š
To Eva:
I keep re-reading your story, and I find it compelling. I am thinking you may have the makings of a novel. Perhaps LO is a Bond Villain?
I say he sounds like a narcissist. So many traits listed here that fit the DSMā¦.But Evaās husband sounds like a gem.
Hopefully retirement will lead to an end to the LE once and for all!
@Serial Limerent: Hopefully.
I told my husband that he was called a gem in the LwL Forum and that’s a really nice thing to say, thanks so much. Yes, I am such a lucky girl to have met my husband and I really hope he is able to stay with me for a loooong time š
The answer down there was meant to be @Norma, sorry
To Serial Limerent:
I think my LO is a narcissist, also. It helps to focus on his negative qualities and his bad temper to keep myself in line.
I approached the local Starbucks with trepidation this morning. I wondered if he might be inside. I thought to myself, “If I run into him, what will I HAVE?” And of course I would have nothing. Less than nothing, if he were to be in a bad mood.
Thanks so much! I thought about writing a novel as well. I always wanted to become an author. I even took courses, met a dramatic adviser/author and told her what I’ve experienced. She told me that life doesn’t follow the plot structure which is needed to sell a book… That means I have to novelise my experience. Additionally, I cannot quote the main part of his political opinion because it could get me in trouble. Readers could think I would endorse his radical view. So I changed my idea and plan to write a comedy in order to parody him. That’s my way of coping when life gets too cruel. It’s hard to stick to my idea because I am so happy and free now. The story keeps changing š But maybe freedom is what I need to cook up the perfect story š Let’s see.
I’m very flattered, thanks again š
I am checking in after almost 3 weeks of No Contact.
At first I felt better, but now I feel worse.
The thing that keeps me going is my fear of what LO will say if I see him. I run into him often in the neighborhood and I have been consciously avoiding places that we might bump into each other.
He was so unkind at our last meeting that I keep re-playing that in my mind to keep from being tempted to text him. He apologized afterward. However, our so-called “friendship” seems to have turned into a series of LO yelling at me for nothing (one time I used the word “grumpy” and he erupted with rage), followed by a profuse apology, seemingly well-meaning, but then it all happens again.
These stupid episodes should be enough to keep me away from LO, but I am still longing.
Taking it hour by hour. Thanks for listening.
You can do it! It will get better. My favorite Nine Inch Nails song title is āThe way out is through.ā I believe one of the adults at my childhood church said it once, too. I think of it often when difficult situations come to pass.
Now I rememberāThe lady at church said āThis too shall pass.ā Both sayings help me.
To Serial Limerent:
Thank you. I will remember both of those.
I firmly believe everything will turn out for the best.
I use this mantra in addition to..this too shall passā¦.and none of this matters in a 100 years.
My father used to yell at me and loves and respects me. Some people don’t know better. But I used to snap like: “There’s no reason to yell at me!”
My LO would also enrupt with rage when I’d call him grumpy or something negative- except when I’m joking. When I’m joking and smiling, I’m allowed to say nearly everything. (I just adapt to him.)
Maybe it helps to tell your LO: “Come on. What is this really about? What do you really want?” And when LO tells you what he wants, you could ask: “Ok. I heard what you said. And why do you want it?”
A business coach told me these two questions would solve nearly every conflict. (I don’t know where you are from and maybe that’s a cultural thing, so I don’t know whether you could ask your LO these questions.)
Just an idea, maybe it works. My LO doesn’t always tell me what he wants (he stays quiet or says “women are so curious”), but sometimes it works.
LO apologised to me two times in two years. I get answers like “Well, I just don’t like it”, or “This was hard, eh?” or “It’s just my opinion, we don’t have to talk about this topic when you don’t like to” instead.
Sometimes, it also helps to tell my LO: “I do not have to talk to you when you don’t like to. Don’t do that.” and he says “No, noooo, don’t take it that way, I was just saying that…” (followed by an explanation).
I feel you.
To Eva:
Thank you for that thoughtful reply. I could say those things to LO, the problem is that those ideas do not come to me in the heat of the moment. I have a very bad tendency to go blank when anyone yells at me, and it sometimes takes me hours to get my equilibrium back.
I am invariably stunned by his overly harsh responses to me and can’t think of anything to say. One time, I just stood there, blank, and he actually yelled, “And don’t look so bewildered!!!”
Huh? Of COURSE I’m bewildered, he’s acting like a complete nut. And besides, who died and left him in charge of how I’m allowed to feel?
That was a huge red flag right there.
I will try to take your advice going forward. However, I am in NC mode at the moment. I am sure I will see him again at some point.
Some of you may recall he has had an oil painting of mine being repaired (27 months and counting) which was supposed to be finished in one month. At the very least, I would like to get my painting back. Although, I also have to consider the possibility that I may not.
Thank you again for your nice comments. I need to re-read them a few times in order to completely digest them.
Wow Norma! 3 weeks!!
Can you honestly have imagined that you would fit this far only a few weeks ago?
You are doing so well – showing strength that Iāll bet you never knew you had. Iām so proud of you!
One day, then the next, then the next ā¦. You know how it works.
One day, you will be able to start realising that itās getting better. Heās getting further and further away. And you are pinpointing the way he hurts you, the way he makes you feel. Believe me, the fear of bumping into him – I know. I work in the same place as mine, although I rarely see her. But I walked past her in the corridor the other day. There was nothing. I felt nothing except abject disdain. Which I thinkingās an achievement. You will get there too.
Your strength and determination are inspirational Norma. I mean that. You have got this . Please keep updating us we are all here for you.
Jmmo xx
To JMMO:
I actually don’t feel strong at all. I am taking it one day at a time. I know that LO is in the throes of trying to prepare his huge expensive house for sale and it’s a gigantic job. If I were to appear at the wrong moment, I might be in for another stupid tongue-lashing over nothing which I don’t deserve.
So my motivation to avoid him is very high.
He told me at our last meeting that his new house is already in escrow. If he doesn’t get XX number of dollars for his current house, the entire deal falls apart. To complicate things, the new house is 3000 miles away.
I think the whole thing is nuts. Sometimes when I feel weak, I ask myself what kind of person would even attempt such an ambitious project? And drag his 89-year-old mother with him to a freezing climate where she knows no one?
I find him SO attractive, yet when I look at his actions, I find them inexplicable and almost repulsive.
He puts his love of decorating ahead of the welfare of his family. I DON’T find that attractive.
Dear Norma,
āI know that LO is in the throes of trying to prepare his huge expensive house for sale and itās a gigantic job. If I were to appear at the wrong moment, I might be in for another stupid tongue-lashing over nothing which I donāt deserve.ā
What Iām about to say to you will describe a part – a huge part – of the realisation phase. How and Why is any of that your problem? Your first duty of care is to yourself. Screw him. His behaviour reeks of selfishness, something that you are well rid of. Itās taken me a long time to even realise that those behaviours are partly why you are where you are now.
Yes, avoid him. Realise that his physical attractiveness is wafer thin – you know you need more than that.
He sounds fairly repulsive – just one man ās view on another.
I promise you, Norma – you are nearer than you realise, forget everything else, just maintain that NC.
Jmmo x
Sunday here in Australia. Aching overall, being sensitive to moods, currents, disruptions. Empath here, with a tough exterior, protection, not manipulation. This is a time of change, and I wish I could just talk to my ancestors about these times, it feels so much like the 1920s&1930s, etc. I never envisaged that I would so be in a similar world/situation to my ancestors, and it affects me. Resonates, affects, and creates emotion. This is not exclusively about Limerence and LOs, but yes, it certainly affects the situation too.
This is so not Alice in Wonderland vibes.
I uninstalled Instagram this weekend because my LO *finally* has a partner with whom she appears to be in a contented relationship.
My LE has perpetuated to now, despite my own happy marriage, because of the LO’s perpetual singleness and our close ‘friendship’.
She was always going to find love eventually, but it is still a dizzying shock, and something I am struggling to come to terms with.
So, I’ve come away from insta, her only social media, to avoid seeing the relationship develop.
And yet…
My adult daughter happens to be insta friends with my LO and messaged me tonight: “xxxxx has a lover???”
So she’s posted. She’s posted about him. THEM. I didn’t want to know… but my iwn daughter painted the picture.
Jesus Christ there is no escape. I was in the middle of a father’s day dinner with my dad, wife and son. I wanted to be sick on the spot. I felt like I was visibly shaking. What an unholy MESS.
I will see my LO on Wednesday. We’re colleagues and “friends”. NC is impossible; retirement, as I have said elsewhere on these pages, my only possible release.
Just the eight years or so to go then.
@Phil
Wow, that’s tough!
I was lucky enough to be able to go absolute NC with LO.
I can’t imagine how it is for you all that can’t.
But even then, his name would pop up from time to time because of mutual friends, I left all social media because of it. I had too for my own sake.
And I gotta tell you just how freeing it is! I have come to discover that it is a time waster and such a distraction from living a real in the moment life!
I really pained to me read that you imagine that retirement would be your only release. I will encourage you to try not to think that far down the line.
Things change, and if I can tell you anything it’s that your perception of LO can change too.
I’m sure you’re aware of my therapy journey and working through my attachment issues and please believe me when I say that just taking a step back and looking at LO or just Limerence in general through a different lens (so to speak) changes your outlook and mindset, even if it’s just ever so slightly.
It’s just a small change but a step forward.
I know what your thinking, “easier said than done” and trust me I KNOW!
I think what helped me in the early days of “battling” Limerence was my therapist encouragement to just consider acceptance. Battling it gets you nowhere, actually it makes it worse.
At the very least acceptance will let you acknowledge your situation as it is.
When I did this I felt a tiny shift and I just built on that.
Good Luck!
Hello Anna
There is some really good advice, I think, in your post.
Acceptance sounds better than “battling”.
That and small changes.
I both fear and look forward to NC
Thank you so much Anna for your kind and thoughtful words. I will do my best to follow your advice.
I have known and worked with my LO for nearly 20 years and I reckon my LE has been there for at least 14 since a foolish drunken kiss. It can be managed ordinarily, but the almost total absence of meaningful, committed relationships in her life has allowed the fantasy to prosper.
I knew I was heading for a big fall as soon as she found someone who was right, but even I didn’t expect such an all consuming, visceral, physical reaction.
I know it won’t stay exactly like this, but with NC an impossibility, I do feel resigned to some form of pain remaining indefinitely.
I have no doubt that removing myself from Insta will help. She’ll notice at some point and may well feel (not unreasonably) that she’s the reason. So I’ll feel like a dick, and not a ‘good friend’. But me first…
Thankfully, although work socials are a thing, our personal social lives don’t overlap. She lives 50 miles away, in a different county, and is attached to a different town. So if I can compartmentalise and at least keep her largely out of my domestic mind space, progress may be possible.
Either way, progress *has* to be made now. 15 years of feelings… but the journey must now seek a destination.
That stinks, Phil. Transference worked for me. Good luck!
To Phil:
Please forgive my ignorance. Does anyone in your family know about your LE?
Hi Norma – no ignorance at all!
I have spoken about her at home as a friend, trying to normalise the ‘relationship’. Just one of many etc. But no, no-one knows how I feel.
If I was to admit it now, I feel it would blow the doors off my marriage and other relationships too. Particularly with my daughter I imagine.
Phil
One minute and one day and one week and one month at a time
You have my understanding and actual empathy.
Can / do you still function as a friend to her? I find for me, I try to stay kind and loving to my Friend… she and I both deserve that.
I have managed to not obsess on my Friend this weekend ( I did reply to a couple of Instagram messages she sent me… i admit, that felt nice ). I DID however dream that I was transferring my Limerence to another young woman where we work… that was odd!
I may pass on the whole therapy plan… going to try “self therapy” and getting back into some mentally health habits ( playing music ) and hiking.
Phil, when did you say you found out about Limerence?
Stay strong, and respect ( my Word for the Month ! ) yourself and your SO and family.
Sorry, I think my reply to you appeared as a new post!
Phil
I get that from my present co-workers. LO was a former co-worker that I have no ties with after she left the job. But some of my co-workers do and they will update me, without me asking, on LO’s personal life. She had met a man about a year back (she was a single mother when I met her on the job) and I remember my co-workers telling me via a Facebook post. I am trying to keep her out of mind and people keep reminding me of her. I don’t like it. I don’t even know him and he doesn’t deserve her. But she is an adult and she can live her own life.
As an aside EvaM …. a man doesn’t raise his voice to a lady. That’s all I’m gonna say and move on ….
āI donāt even know him and he doesnāt deserve her.ā
Adam, but how can you know if he deserves her if you donāt know him? I still think, why not believe the best for a change and believe that they match and she finally found someone good..
Mila
Always the voice of reason. I think I got a bit turned around about worth last night. Our 21 year old son texted me. “Happy Father’s Day dad, thank you for doing your best and working hard to keep everything together.” I showed my wife and she said that I should of know that I was appreciated. Because I went right into all the things I have felt that I did wrong as a father. I think I hold my gender to an unreasonable standard when it comes to the women I care about in my life.
But it was nice to get to visit him Friday. I took the day off work as I needed to take our mower to a shop to get fixed and was returning his to him and his roommates. We ate lunch and talked before he had to go work himself. I am so proud of the man that he has become. I think he is in a better place than I was in my 20’s. His mother did an amazing job staying at home to raise both our boys while I worked.
Hi Adam,
thatās great, you can be proud of having a good relationship with a son you raised well, no? Itās one of the best things in life, I guess! Better than fantasy LOs anyway!
Thanks so much again for your thoughtful words.
I will try to function as a workplace friend but no more. I’m often the one who initiates social events in our group, so I’ll try and do less of that. And as I said, no more Insta.
I’m desperate for things not to be awkward – it was in the past – but it’s like she has depended on our companionship for some time. Perhaps with a SO of her own, this will now change. Agony no doubt but for the best.
As for awareness of limerence… only a couple of weeks or so! Since my LO told me of her relationship and I almost immediately hit the internet.
Hi Phil,
so sorry, that must have hit hard.
Is it possible for you to think of her not in terms of limerence , I mean of her as an object that you are obsessed with and need something from, but as someone in your life you like very much (I hope) and who finally found some happiness that youāve already got? And try to let go a bit , step back and be a bit glad for her? That might be a little shift of the sort Anna is speaking of.
Thank you Mila for your thoughtful words. Yes, that’s what I would like – it’s just very hard.
She absolutely deserves happiness. I *am* happy for her. But I also feel destroyed.
Somehow though, as you say, I need to think better. I will try!
Hi Phil,
of course, it seems very difficult to get to that mindset. But sometimes it helps just to aim for it or get a glimpse of what it would feel like if one was already there..
Itās all in our heads, and actually thatās why itās in our control too.
Me, I experience at the moment the constant shifting of views of my last LO, sometimes I see in him the LO I was limerent for, sometimes the light changes and I see an insensitive and somewhat egotistical person, sometimes I see a limited person who is actually to be pitied , sometimes a loyal friend etc.
Itās quite disturbing how each perspective seems valid at the time, and how unsure I am which is the true one.
But it also shows how itās all a fabrication of our perspective and not outer circumstances, fate or whatever.
While itās disturbing, it could also give you some power back over how you want to view the situation.
I mean, in a way, you got all you could out of the situation. You donāt want to give up your SO and family and don’t want to risk losing them. So you got your stolen kisses and the knowledge that she likes you and is attracted . More is anyway not possible, and itās maybe a blessing that this situation got to an end? Otherwise it would deteriorate into the temptation of a PA, would always detract energy from your family etc. You already had the best of it.
Also, itās not possible to be as selfish as to keep LO around without SO and family of her own forever as your validation-provider and without life of her own, if you allow me to be a bit provocative. That would backfire at some point. So maybe itās a good thing she got an SO now?
These are not meant to be accusations, itās only to provide another perspective so as you can accept the change of things more?
Forgive me if it sounded judgy or if I am on the completely wrong track.
Hello all
In reverse order
Phil – I recognise that feeling from when I was limerent for a work colleague. He had a girlfriend, I had a boyfriend, and even if we’d both been single we wouldn’t have been a good match, but we were friends. He was (hopefully) unaware of my feelings. I remember the feeling like a sudden punch reading the email he sent to our team announcing his engagement. Luckily all ended happily; he left the organisation and I was able to put him out of mind, I was able to move in with my boyfriend and lived happily ever after. I hope that you will be able to get rid of your limerence in a shorter timescale than retirement. It has been done and it is possible but you have to believe it’s possible.
Camilla- sending healing vibes, whatever your situation is. You have probably shared it elsewhere.
Norma – we’re all here rooting for you with your NC stretch. The way your LO behaves (whether deliberate or not) has driven uncertainty and Dr L explains in detail in the video above the mechanism by which uncertainty drives limerence. Armed with that, just understanding that he is going to be unpredictable and your behaviour will not make any difference to his, may help you somehow. Also, how special is the oil painting? Do you really need it back or would it be better to let go of it, emotionally, along with the promise it brings of future contact with LO?
Dr L – thank you for the video on uncertainty. It makes me realise that a lot of what has perpetuated the crush I have on this man is because it’s not predictable when I’ll see him. I might decide to ignore him but bump into him in the street. I might yearn to see him then not happen to cross paths for a couple of weeks. Our lives are loosely entwined in various different ways, many of which I have no control over. NC isn’t going to be possible, and chance meetings are unavoidable, but I can at least focus on aspects I can control and that definitely seems to be helping. Understanding how I ended up in this situation is helpful too.
To Monochrome:
Thank you for your comments. The oil painting is semi-special but I have had over two years to think about it and how the painting ties me to LO. It won’t kill me if I lose it. I enjoyed it for more than 20 years–my sister painted it for me–and it may be time to let go of it. I paid her to paint it, it wasn’t a gift.
The painting is a tropical scene which reminds me of a vacation I took with my family back in 2000. All those family members have abandoned me, so looking at the picture is bittersweet.
A lot of emotions to unpack with that painting. Sometimes when an object is that special, in either a positive or negative way, we have to remind ourselves that it is, after all, only stuff.
To Monochrome:
Thank you. I am trying to be okay with it, however it works out.
If I end up losing it, it will be just another reason to dislike LO, which is an advantage, I suppose. I never DREAMED he could be so flakey. The LO I invented in my head would never be so cavalier about my painting.
ooh @norma
…look at you talking about “the LO i invented in my head”
…could it be that NC is starting to pay off a little bit? i feel like…you never would have made that discernment a little while ago. you would have been wondering…why? why does he do this?
but now, it sounds (to me) more like you are saying, you see something different.
i know it is VERY hard, and fleeting…i know it doesn’t stay stable, the withdrawing, the nc, it comes in waves. but, i am just mentioning it because you sound, to me, like there is a bit of a different perspective right now…i hope you will keep going, because to me, it sounds like the process is beginning, thanks to all the work you have done, the willpower you have had.
with care,
csc
To CSC:
Thank you for the support. I feel like I am really not making any progress at all, but maybe I just can’t see it.
I have realized that the real LO is not the kindly, patient man I imagined him to be.
@norma
Good morning. š yeah, i know it feels like no progress is happening, but i promise you, it is. Give it a bit more time, just know that it is happening. Itās like a plant growing – it grows from the roots first, and you donāt see it. But, then the first stem pops up, and you know itās growing. Just give it time.
I can tell you for sure though, if you break your nc, itās like pouring poison on that little seedling. It might survive, but itās a lot harder for it to do so.
Youāre working really hard to do this. (I am too, Iām just a bit ahead of you in my timeline)ā¦.and yes, it is thankless. Until one day, you wake up feeling a bit more stable. Something that has helped meā¦ I have begun to pay attention to my energetic state. At some point, you will realize you are more stable. (Energetic state is not your āmoodāā¦this is your energy levelā¦your āStateā, easier to discern when you take a couple deep breaths, and close your eyes.)
Whether you feel depleted, or more stable, whether you feel more released, or bound up. Donāt worry about your feelings, or your state, just note it. This will train you to guard your nervous system and your state from anything that might tip it over. It has been very helpful to me to do this exercise.
You can do this. After hearing about your LO for so long, i am glad you are not exposing your heart to him. He seemed, if I may say so, he seemed cruel, and not like a good or caring person. And you, on the other hand, seem very caring and very sensitive. I guess I feel protective. š
X
csc
To CSC:
Thank you once again for your kind and caring words. They mean more to me than you realize. I am feeling pretty awful but plodding ahead.
I’m sorry but I don’t believe the Psych Today article mentions where I can get this snortable oxytocin?
Over to you @drL š
(Congratulations on your article!!!!) š„š
Mila – that’s such a great response thank you. Makes so much sense. Maybe the most pitch perfect thing I’ve read so far. Definitely not provocative!
I have got everything I can from it and anything more would be destructive on so many levels.
Admission time: I messaged her today and asked that we cool our friendship a little. I said how happy I was for her, but that it probably makes sense for both of us now that she is in a relationship.
She said the following: “It’s early days but I’m really happy. It feels special and I’m excited about the future for the first time in a very long time”.
How utterly lovely. How could I possibly not want it to work out for her?
The LE won’t go away any time soon, I’m certain. The pain will squeeze me dry. But I will try and think about what you have said when I’m at my lowest.
Thank you Mila.
Hi Phil,
Iām glad it helped a bit. Itās easier said than done, as I know myself painfully.
Itās great your relationship is that honest that you can suggest cooling it a bit and she can tell you how happy she is with her guy. Respect for that and that you can see how lovely it is for her.
Hi Jmmo!
…just putting this down here so hopefully you’ll see it. I have been intermittently able to pop in, just very busy and a bit overwhelmed…and I wanted to say hi and see how you are…I have probably missed some posts, and the comments thread can be a hard place to navigate, so I am sorry if I missed anything.
How are you? Are you feeling ok this week? How’s your energy, and how’s your spirit?
I’m doing ok, but kind of blue, again. I am sad about my xlo, on occasion, and just sad and overwhelmed at others… i know that at this point, it doesn’t really have anything to do with xlo, but it does have to do with the feelings my interactions with him unearthed.
i suppose i just don’t know what to do next. i am facing a difficult choice, with my so. and, in general, i am feeling my life heading in a different (rather undefined) direction…and that is a bit weird. it’s just all round a weird time in my life, i guess.
today i have a lot to do, and am anxious about it. it involves spreadsheets and thankless sorting of things. so, i will get to it.
hopefully you will see this – no reply is even needed, i just wanted you to know i am thinking of you. š
with care,
csc, blp
Hi csc!
Lovely to hear from you! You havenāt missed much. I did put a comment up the other day about a chance āwalk-past in the corridorā with xLO on Friday at work. Itās the second time I have laid eyes on her since going NC, and the only time we have come face to face. I felt nothing except total ambivalence . She said a very curt hi, I just walked on. It feels like a step forward, because whilst I will still try to avoid the places I know sheāll be at certain times, I can now be fairly sure that further sightings wonāt floor me. Still very early days, but my rehab does seem to be progressing past her, and on to what made me fall for her in the first place.
I am contemplating some big changes in my life, principally in the way I view relationships with friends and my parents. Iām still being cool with them – I donāt think they realise it – but my therapist has helped me to uncover that Iāve always needed more from them than theyāve given me. They divorced when I was 10. My dad has never spoken about it. My mum projects her guilt onto me before dominating conversations about how bad things are for my sister. Itās quite complicated – I will explain further another time. But I am feeling a bit better, stronger. But am I all that much better than our last chat? Honestly, probably not. My energy is low, even if my spirits are somewhat higher. I am tired and my engagement with people is diminished.
My relatives funeral is on Friday. I shall be reading a poem. Iām hoping I can get through it.
Onto you, my dear blp. Iām sorry youāre blue. I donāt like to think of it. Maybe weāre both at that stage in our rehab where we have progressed to looking at what causes our addiction? I understand that youāre looking at your life with SO. How much of that do you think leads you to LEs? I used to think it was a major part, yet now I think that thereās an emptiness within me that no one person or thing could fill. Thatās why I need to find what it is. Is that the same for you, or have you found that life with SO is likely to be a contributory factor?
Yes, itās a weird time for you, darling. Maybe not the time to make big decisions? But maybe it is. You know best. Whatever it is I will be with you every step of the way.
ā i know that at this point, it doesnāt really have anything to do with xlo, but it does have to do with the feelings my interactions with him unearthed.ā Yes! Yes! Itās gone past xLO, and left you looking at the bigger picture. I get it, utterly and completely. I really do.
Your anxiety is probably to do with your depleted reserves. I recently went through a phase of constant anxiety. There all the time. I wonder if you have sat with it and listened to it? That has seemed to work a little for me. You probably know all this, sorry.
My dear csc, I am thinking if you. I trust and know that you will get this right. I will always be here. I may not see every post, but if I donāt hear from you for a while I search for your name, in case Iāve missed something. We continue to share this rehab together. Sometimes weāre at different parts, it feels like weāre in the same group, at the moment.
I know that you wonāt rush any decisions but that ultimately you will make the right one(s) for you. Your blp is here while you make them.
Speak soon. Til then hugs and affection.
Jmmo blp āŗļø
Wanted you to see my reply, dear csc āš»
oh my goodness! @jmmo!
i see it! i’m so sorry i haven’t replied yet today. i hope i’m not too late here with my reply…and you will see it.
incidentally, did you see my reply the other day about my weird idea where we imagine we are not limerents, but we take a day to imagine we are actually objects??? it was a weird exercise that i thought might be fun for us rehabbers.
indeed, such a weird time in my life. i am feeling more creatively inspired these days, though. and my therapist had mentioned that coming out of limerence at a certain point, one can experience an incredible rush of creativity. i had been looking forward to it…and i believe it might be here…we shall see. i am brimming with ideas…
as for you — my goodness. i hear you on how you feel about your parents. i am very sorry if they haven’t said to you what you needed, or wanted, to hear. i understand about needing more than they gave. i wonder if we have that in common. while my parents were always there for me…there were…i don’t know. some things i did need…and never received. it’s hard to articulate. but, i feel i do relate to how you describe it…i’m sure we will write about that at some point. it’s such a beast of a topic, i know. but…yes…
in terms of whether my life with SO contributes…yes. it does. my SO is very safe, very tacit, and very calm. i am an energetic person, and very curious and enthusiastic. (although i’m still a depressed person…not sure how that one works!?) …and i come from a background where i was badly, badly hurt. i took up with SO because he is a caring man, a considerate and calm person…but…i knew my Tendency…and instead of burning myself on the altar of limerence again, i decided to go with someone very safe.
now, i feel i erred to far on the side of safety…because my life does not feel…as vibrant. it feels like a shadow of the life i would have myself lead…
however, it is also the case i love a good fantasy. so, i am not sure if the vibrant life i see in my mind would ever materialize. perhaps it is best to just look around and try to be content.
these are big questions…and i do not know the answers. but, i believe they will come to me. i will not be able to ignore them when they do…and i will have to take some form of decisive stance…i know not what.
well, dear jmmo, look at us, a couple of navel-gazers. But what navels!!!! Amazing, intelligent, and emotionally aware navels they are!
With a smile and a hug.
csc, blp
Hi csc
Morning here so just a quick reply before work.
Yea I saw your idea of looking at life as LOs. A spectacular idea, one which I think weād find very rightening, maybe even a tad entertaining in a weird way? š¤
I must go but we will aural soon. So much of what you said above resonates.
Speak soon
Jmmo blp xx
Update.
To my great astonishment, LO is ghosting me.
Ignored! Not the first time though but this time it is different.
Normally ignoring/pulling back would precipitate a āPushme-Pullyou danceā, where I would be consumed by strong emotions/feelings of anxiety and loss, and wondering (no, ruminating!) what I did wrong and how to put it right, and how could I not know how my behaviours affected LO, with endless fantasies around new ways to rescue and ease his pain, and ease mine. Move closer, and work on new heights of emotional sharing, and togetherness by ā¦. wellā¦..oversharing mostly. And begging for emotional reciprocation and acknowledgement to feel safe and seen.
But with my learning journey into Avoidants and how the attachment works between Avoidants and Empaths, in particular Anxious Empaths and Dismissive Avoidants, it makes sense.
Finally!
I am grey rocking back.
And acknowledging that this Anxious Empath is a strong independent woman, and that everyone is responsible for themselves, so therefore, I am not responsible for him and his actions.
And the embers are turning more and more grey.
The Limerence fire needs oxygen and rumination and endless dance sessions, garnished with a sprinkling of desperation and uncertainty. The Pushme-Pullyou dancing feeds the flames, it is like an endless dance competition even š .
Finally figured it out, more truthfullyā¦ā¦ I figured me out? Yes, I did. This is an important realisation for me and where I am at in my Life journey.
No need to keep dancing.
Camilla
šš»šš»šš»šš»šš» Absolutely wonderful post, and my goodness you are going some.
No. You are absolutely not responsible for his thoughts and behaviours . You are only responsible for how you allow them to impact you. So knowledgeable and insightful. Grey-rocking! Yes!
It is an important step, itās massive! I can sense your positivity and it is infectious.
So very happy read this. Please keep me updated!
Jmmo
Avoidantsā¦
A sample YouTube description of the Pushme-Pullyou dance; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rxWPqbxI3E
If you tangle with a really smart Dismissive-Avoidant, you can play the game forever until you get tired of it and quit. A strong DA may never tire of the dance. If you want to stick around, fine. If you don’t, that’s ok, too.
Dr. Marion Solomon contends that it’s unlikely that two avoidants will be able to craft a stable long-term relationship. I largely agree with one exception. Since it’s about control, it’s very difficult.
I did the Pushme-Pullyu dance with a girl who really liked me in HS. In HS, I was an insecure idiot. I had no idea what I was doing. She finally got tired of the situation and gave up on me. I thought that was perfectly acceptable at the time. It took another 7+ years for me to temper that and probably another decade until it didn’t affect my relationships.
LO #2 and LO #4 were avoidants. LO #2 was a Fearful-Avoidant and LO #4 was a Dismissive-Avoidant. LO #2 looked me in the eye and said, “I can’t control you.” I never got close enough to LO #4 to know how the power dynamic would have played out.
Csc,
Thank you for your post to me in the other blog.
Happy to kick ideas about if or when you feel it would be beneficial to talk about the big life choices or questions. Like Jmmo, I can maybe read between lines if you say anything in ‘not so many words’, btw.
Thanks for asking about ‘rehab’. I’m feeling my way through a phase that’s been strange and exploratory but more in a good way than not. With my MFF and my work lives pretty entwined, and the basis of a lot of ‘priors’, there wasn’t really many scenarios where I could (or would want to) exit the LE for now into NC or an awkward level of LC. I don’t think doing that (eg if I jettisoned her) would ever really make me happy either. There are some things happening at work at the moment that necessitate more contact too.
So after that really rough spell in the spring where I lowered the contact and emotional intimacy right down, I have let her back in a bit. At one point even being in her presence was painful, csc, painful. I was literally a 1-2 days away from it putting me off work for a spell. I then had that really epic dream about the LE that I reported on here at the time (late April or early May) and it was like that shunted away some blockages, as after that I just found I could feel my way through interactions with her more naturally again.
To my pleasant surprise I’ve been able to do that slowly without slipping back into limerent patterns of thinking, 6 or 7 weeks on. This is not meant to be an over-bold “I am totally over this” claim at all. I’m aware of my amber lights and watchful for them. I have not gone back into some of the amber areas of over-sharing or extended and manufactured ‘alone time’ with her. I am more like a spectator in my game, able to almost watch the interactions with a sensible part of me talking in my head while they happen. All that means we’re in a good but not too good place and I do not find her living rent free in my brain all the time anymore. Things feel in their steadiest state now since 2 years ago since this ‘thing’ all kicked off in earnest.
Me and SO have alsp really steadied (my LE was doing bad things to that behind the scenes) and felt more ‘together’ in this recent phase too, throwing ourselves into some fulfilling home projects. My energy levels and ability to channel my effort are now better too.
So, in summary … cautiously optimistic, watchful, still more difficult internal work to do of the ‘how the hell did I get there and how do I not get there again?’ nature that you and Jmmo have been discussing.
What’s been new or similar in your world since we last chatted?!
Sending good vibes your way š
Hi @LaR
Oh, wow. Thank you kindly for filling me in on all the goings-on. This is all really fascinating to hear about, and the way I hear this, it sounds like all of your very hard work to understand, and deal with, your feelings…and to discern what your patterns really were in your LE — have been paying off. That work is so very hard. And, it is exhausting. Just getting to the point where one can attempt to do that work is exhausting – and then, the work really begins. It is like an endurance trial upon another endurance trial. Compounded…
And you have really gotten to another point, with so much wisdom to take with you from there. I am happy for you, LaR — truly!!! You are amazing. š
I am very, very sorry about that painful episode, being in her presence. I am sure it hurt like crazy. I can only imagine. That moment — that reality of the presence — is what my stark NC is shielding me from. Even imagining it, I feel like I’m being stabbed. It’s that painful. So, I can only guess as to how you felt, having it really happen.
But, you are beyond that now. And you went through it. I am very, very glad to hear things with SO are improved. “Steadied” is such a good word. I understand it somewhat. I can’t say I am there…but…open to it, if it were to happen with my own. However, I also am not going to hold my breath on that forever. I do feel, after reading your experience, that it is best to hold on and just make sure my own feelings of wanting to leave — or to make some major changes — are not just my post-LE brain still reeling…that very much could be the case…we shall see.
Yes, how do we not do this again??? It is so hard to really know. I somewhere have a jotted down list of things – written during therapy — that were great insights into how to avoid an LE in the future- but I can’t find it. I know I didn’t discard it. I have to clean my workspace one of these days, so I hope to unearth it. :))
Anyways – I’m off to work on a creative project. I’m doing ok, but every day is an up and down. Still, I am moving ahead. Slowly but surely…and yes, I think you, me, Jmmo and some others, probably, will have some very very interesting days ahead, as we ponder exactly “how the hell did we get there and how do we not get there again???”…well said.
With care – and I have to tell you I was on a drive the other day and passed a FIELD FULL of John Deere tractors! There had to be 50 of the little green guys all lined up in a row!!! The little, kinda cute ones. They looked like friendly toys on steroids :)) I took it as a sign. And I thought of you!
x
csc
Hi Csc,
Thanks for your ever-kind words, for the š¢, etc. I find it cute that the šsymbol has had such an imprint that you now see the field of John Deeres and are reminded of me!
The creative projects part sounds like a really promising sign for you – I am all for creativity! I wish we could know more of what your creativity produces – can you give us even a ballpark area of what your creative areas are, or is that too revealing?
“That moment ā that reality of the presence ā is what my stark NC is shielding me from.”
This is why for you – for your unique situation – the decision to go NC and not look back or fall back was absolutely the right thing to do and continue to do.
“I am very, very sorry about that painful episode, being in her presence. I am sure it hurt like crazy. I can only imagine.”
I just crawled down a hole for 2.5 weeks afterwards and then cried out on here (you’ll remember that post from early May and all the kindness you and others showed me in response).
“it sounds like all of your very hard work to understand, and deal with, your feelingsā¦and to discern what your patterns really were in your LE ā have been paying off. That work is so very hard. And, it is exhausting”
More yes than no, but it is a mixed bag and still a bumpy trajectory. I’ve come up with a term ‘conscious desensitisation’ to describe what I’ve been trying to do. I do not (because of work) have the option to be NC – and I am talking that there is a decent amount of required contact on more work days than not. The stages were something like this: 1. withdraw, remove temptations, ‘gray rock’ to break associations between MFF and rewards; 2. vDoH and taking the break down that hole I mentioned above to ‘grieve’ it; 3. reintroduction – ‘watch’ events when I’m around her, observe triggers; 4. conscious management of reactions to triggers – avoiding some, at other times intercepting response thoughts to stop neural connections reforming; 5. try and ‘norm’ to the new version of things so eventually it fades more and just becomes normal life during a working day.
I think where I’m at a disadvantage to those of you who are rehabbing through long NC is that I am still having to deal with the person – still having to do that very conscious monitoring and responding. While I am doing that, there is less head space left in reserve for the all-important “how the heck did I get here and how do I not do it again?” questions. Maybe this resonates a bit with your past, as you say you have been a ‘serial’?
At one point I would have taken a hard NC for longer if it was open to me. I think that would snuff the embers out, whereas having contact makes that nearly impossible. I have choices now on how to respond to it … but the stuff that attracts me to her will always be there, won’t it? If you can’t ‘see’ it, maybe it is easier to end it? Or is this a “the other man’s (tractor ploughed) grass always looks greener” type situation from your point of view?
I am happy to talk more about the SO side of things for both of us if and when you’d like to. I think we have some similarities and some differences on that side. SO is definitely a ‘safer’ option for me (compared to LO), as well – sometimes what pulled me in like a magnet was the thrill of something new or different that LO offered (so different to ANY SO I have ever had – it would have been a total rollercoaster ride). But I also think that the long period I’ve had of building love and understanding with my SO is worth a lot to me. I could never *really* see myself making a better realistic life with my LO than with my SO, beyond any honeymoon period. This doesn’t mean – in yours or anyone’s LE – that just because the LO isn’t suitable, that the SO has to be by default. I appreciate all you’ve said about the scary leap into the unknown that starting off again would produce for you. I hope the therapy and time lead you to good answers.
All the best for now,
LaR x
Okay, this is going to be a strange question. I just finished watching the video on “Uncertainty,” trying to figure out where I fit in.
My situation is that I told LO right up front that I have a crush on him. He is gay and single. He said he was flattered and said we could still be friends, because my crush doesn’t bother him.
So, since I have ended up like one of B. F. Skinner’s insane pigeons, I am trying to figure out exactly how this happened. Obviously there has never been any suggestion of romance, so that is not what is driving me. All I know is, when I am at LO’s house, I am transported into another world. LO owns a very high-end, unusual home, which he is in the process of trying to sell. His gardens are so beautiful, that weddings are actually performed there.
I love nothing more than sitting in LO’s garden with him, listening to him tell me stories about his various adventures over the years.
And I started wondering, could I be limerent for his HOUSE?
@norma
well, i’m sure the house is part of it. doesn’t hurt, i’m sure!….but i have to ask this…are you maybe looking for excuses here? like…are you looking for a reason to say that you are not limerent for LO and therefore, can get back in touch?…..?
i have to ask! sorry!
š
i hope you’ll take my question in the spirit it is meant — just a friendly prodding š
yes, i too am an insane pigeon. i felt that hard, when he mentioned that in the video. “oh no…”….”that….is me.”
csc
To CSC:
Thank you for the question. I was thinking more that, maybe I am not limerent for LO, but rather his house, and maybe I should make friends with the new buyer, so I can keep getting dopamine hits from the property.
Is that even a thing?
From one insane pigeon to another.
Dear Norma,
Maybe you are really into beauty – you’ve mentioned how handsome LO’s grey hair is….his house and gardens are also beautiful. He has his mother living with him – maybe you want him to take you and look after you in his big beautiful house? It might be more oblique than that?
My LO was not egotistical, very open and friendly. He had a lovely smile. But it was the lack of ego / narcissism that did it for me (this I think is partly explained by him being a very nice version of men in my family, who I love but who are very egotistical, though I am still figuring it all out).
Thinking dispassionately about all of this is progress. Norma, I dont post much but I am reading your posts are cheering for you, every day.
*and* cheering for you, every day
šŖš¹šŖ·
@norma
…honestly, i think you have the makings of a novel, or maybe a really shirley-jackson esque short story…in this. believing you are longing for someone and it turns out you are longing for his house…i like it!
honestly, it could be a thing. it’s hard to say goodbye to a beautiful piece of property — or anything like that which one has access to….
i’m with @bewitched – i’d say this type of questioning sounds like it’s progress! you’re getting new perspective, and that is a great thing.
you’re so creative, norma š
coo coo (pigeon for xo)
csc
To Bewitched:
You may be onto something. I envy LO in that he still has his mother. Not only is she still living, but she is sharp as a tack and an excellent conversationalist.
I certainly feel a kind of longing when I am in the living room with the two of them.
Being in his home is like being in another world.
To CSC:
I don’t know if I am longing for LO or his house, or both. His house is breathtaking and is famous locally as being architecturally spectacular.
The house will still be here after he’s gone.
Coo Coo Ca Choo backatcha.
Hi Norma,
maybe itās some secret yearning for a lifestyle, or better for a certain kind of life, one with beautiful gardens and views, where you sit and remember past adventures?
You certainly mention his house and his future house a lot, I noticed.
I donāt think itās something to laugh away, sometimes we fall in love with a whole family (someone mentioned Brideshead?) we never had, or the way someone handles their life, itās not always simply the person but also surrounding stuff that enchants us.
To Mila:
Certainly food for thought. Oddly, LO lives across the street from a row of modest duplexes. One time, he said to me, “I didn’t move here for the NEIGHBORHOOD!”, and he gestured dismissively to the homes across the street. Uh, some of those people are my friends, but point taken. He is well off and needs to live in a beautiful, high-end home.
So I began wondering, what if LO lived in one of those simpler homes? Would I still feel the same way about him? And I don’t think I would. I think it’s the combination of his breathtaking home, plus his physical gorgeousness, that has dazzled me.
The more I have gotten to see of his personality, the more turned off I become. He is a snappish, irritable Trump supporter.
Hi Norma
I have been thinking for quite a while now that maybe you see your LO like a movie star.
His good looks, amazing home and gardens, lavish lifestyle, the volatile drama queen reactions and the great story telling.
Many movie stars from the golden years could fit this archetype ( 50’s to 80’s era).
I remember you likened him to a famous TV person once.
Of course that is very beguiling to be ‘ let in ‘ and be a trusted member of his inner circle, as you are one of the select few.
Maybe this is what it’s about ?
I have often been considering to transfer to a ‘ safe and distant ‘ famous person actually.
Crazy idea, but there is some good logic there.
To Imho:
Thank you for your comments. You bring up some excellent points. So maybe it’s about wanting to feel accepted by someone who appears to be in an elevated position.
I wonder what the real Norma Desmond would say?
Dear Norma,
After reading your conversation about whether you might be limerent for LO’s house I’d like to share my experience. When my LE kicked off and I was so deeply in it, it was during a time of great distress. Me and my SO broke up for, what turned out to be, three months and I did not have a job while I was desperately searching for a place to fit in. Around that time and before that I had been longing for my own place, a room of one’s own so to say, where I could fully be myself, feel safe, be creative, be at peace and surround myself with beauty. One of my dreams was having a place surrounded by nature.. with animals etc. LO had all that. A single, sensitive, creative man with a well paying job, owning a house somewhere outside of town in the middle of the woods, painting, renovating it to his own likings, doing whatever he felt like during his free time. We shared a lot of common interests and worst of all, he was VERY much into me. It felt like a dream chance that was being presented right in front of me, like a fairy tale but with a very grimm edge: the chance of it not working out, the heartbreak, blowing up my life, making it harder for me to work things out and getting back with SO, not having anything stable to rely on myself etc. The dream presented to me included his house, his lifestyle, his independence. I once asked myself whether I would be that much attracted to him if he didn’t have all that and shared a crappy place with a roommate somewhere in town. It would sure have taken some of that magic away I guess…
So yeah, a bit late to the conversation here but I think you can definitely fall in love with more than just a person but rather the whole life they’ve built around themselves, or the dream, a reflection of your personal desires, they present you.
Wishing you all the best,
Kat
Limerent for his house? How very Eliza Bennett of you! Thatās how she fell for Mr. Darcy. š
To Serial Limerent:
How funny!
It’s been many years since I saw “Pride and Prejudice.”
I need to brush up on my Jane Austen.
Of course, in one of the versions, she was probably helped along by seeing Colin Firth in a wet shirt, lol
To Serial Limerent:
I am not sure if it would make things better or worse if I saw LO in a wet shirt.
He’s not nearly as cute as Colin Firth.
LOL!
Okay, I just went and watched “Pride and Prejudice” but this one was the Keira Knightley/Matthew MacFadyen version.
I thought of LO and his house several times. He is no Mr. Darcy. He is also no Matthew MacFadyen.
Norma D,
“Okay, I just went and watched āPride and Prejudiceā but this one was the Keira Knightley/Matthew MacFadyen version.”
You have to watch the six-part miniseries with Colin Firth. From 1995. There is no other Mr. Darcy except Colin Firth. The man set a standard. š
To Marcia:
Point taken. I will have to look for that one.
To Marcia:
Okay, I found the Colin Firth one. I am halfway through the first episode.
Looking for Marcia:
Wondering if you’re around and if you’d like to talk about Pride & Prejudice?
You can also talk to me in the meantime. Iāve read all the books several times and seen the miniseries a few as well. š
Norma D:
“Okay, I found the Colin Firth one. I am halfway through the first episode.”
How are you liking it? I think the series is much better than the movie. There’s just more time for the series to give each character time to develop.
Whatever happened to your test results from you colonoscopy? Did I miss those posts? If so, I’m sorry. There are a lot of posts on here.
To Marcia:
Colonoscopy results: two polyps that turned out to be benign. I go back in five years. Thank you so much for asking.
I have only finished two episodes of the six in the mini-series.
It’s true that there is much more character development in the longer version; however, I find I am very bothered by some of them.
For example, I really liked Brenda Blethyn as the mom in the movie. The mom in the mini-series is so histrionic, she is exhausting to watch. In that instance, less is more.
I am also bothered by the continual catty comments by many of the characters. I am easily triggered, and this is a struggle.
To Serial Limerent:
Thank you for chiming in. So far I have to say I prefer the movie, simply because the mini-series extends so many unpleasant sequences.
I still prefer Matthew MacFadyen, no offense to Colin Firth.
Norma Desmond:
“Colonoscopy results: two polyps that turned out to be benign. I go back in five years. Thank you so much for asking.”
That’s good news.
“For example, I really liked Brenda Blethyn as the mom in the movie. The mom in the mini-series is so histrionic, she is exhausting to watch. In that instance, less is more.”
Oh I love the mom in the series. And the father is such a nice foil for.
“I am also bothered by the continual catty comments by many of the characters. I am easily triggered, and this is a struggle.”
Maybe you shouldn’t watch it. I can’t watch really dark crime stuff. People being tortured or raped. I have to turn it off.
“I still prefer Matthew MacFadyen, no offense to Colin Firth.”
Oh, Miss Desmond. I don’t know if we can be friends. š I think Matthew MacFadyen is a wet noodle. š
To Marcia:
Have you by any chance seen “Succession?” I think I am influenced by four years of watching Matthew MacFadyen playing a smarmy American. No characters on “Succession” are likeable, but he is particularly loathsome. You could always count on him to do the wrong thing. I wasn’t familiar with his work at the time and didn’t even realize he was British. I think he’s impressive.
Of course I ADORE Colin Firth. Not to take anything away from him.
Norma D:
“Have you by any chance seen āSuccession?ā”
I tried to watch the first episode. I couldn’t get into it. Should I try again?
“Of course I ADORE Colin Firth. Not to take anything away from him.”
Ok. I won’t eject you from the room. You will be placed in the Naughty Section. You won’t be alone. MJ and Adam are always there. š
Ways to leave the Naught Section:
1.) Compliments
2.) Gifts
3.) Cash
š
To Marcia:
I would strongly encourage you to try “Succession” again. I don’t think it’s just me. This show won multiple awards and is one of the best things I have ever seen.
I am glad to have some company in the Naughty Section. Otherwise, I will be ruminating about LO too much. Who actually is a pretty fair imitation of the unpleasant/irritable/jerk version of Mr. Darcy.
“You will be placed in the Naughty Section. You wonāt be alone. MJ and Adam are always there. š”
Why is this the first time I’m hearing about this naughty room? I’m not naughty. Neither is my Brother from another Mother Adam. We are not naughty. We’re good Dudes.
To MJ:
Well, let’s make the best of it. What is there to do in the Naughty Room?
Following my chance sighting of xLO in a corridor walk-past the other day (where she grunted hi to me and I ignored her), I have had a couple more sightings this week. However she has always been saving away and hasnāt seen me.
After a glimpse this morning, (again not face to face ) Iām sensing a little gathering of anxiety again. Iām looking at this as a positive, as itās a reminder that Iām not totally free of her at the moment, and not to get too confident.
Rehab!
I will continue to employ my tried, tested and largely successful avoidance strategies for the time being.
An alcoholic shouldnāt sip on a drink in rehab. I shouldnāt glimpse her too often.
Any thoughts? csc, LaR, Mila, Bewitched etc? (Or anyone??)
Hi Jmmo,
Iām not sure if Iām the right person to advise you since Iāve always had problems to just cut people out of my life, and thatās what you see as the solution.
It might be my people-pleasing part, but I carry on better when Iāve managed to have made some sort of peace with them.
Iām sure itās the right thing to distance yourself from her, itās just that for me, this kind of not-greeting-in-the-hallway is a bit like the other side of the limerent coin.
Goal for me is, to greet these people normally and without spending thoughts on them.
But to get there, you might have to pass through this phase of absolute resentment. I know myself that the passage from there to true freedom from them is a tricky one. Iām confident you can manage but Iām actually hesitant to give advice since itās something you have to feel yourself your way through, especially since you alone have the full grasp of the situation and her personality.
But, as I said, I trust you completely to go through it and be successful! There might be some meandering in the path, but youāll get there!
I donāt mean necessarily to resume contact with her, since I remember that she is quite insensitive and not able to view things from another point of view than her own limited one.
I just think maybe itās possible to get to a more equanimous state of mind where you can leave her be as she is without hating her so much, just not wanting to have too much to do with her since itās bound to be frustrating.
Because now, this kind of hate restricts your life, you cannot enjoy life when sheās nearby, you avoid places/events because of her etc. Total freedom is not to care too much.
Hi Jmmo,
I guess you can’t control when sightings happen, only watch and monitor your reactions. In the rehab analogy, you can’t control the presence of the drink on the bar, or even that you have to be in the bar, but you can control whether you drink it.
It’s a good sign that she’s accepted the situation that she’s no longer doing anything to lure you back in. I don’t think you have to go as far as ignoring her if she says hello – just say it politely back and walk on (you both know why). In some respects that reaction might give her less satisfaction than a total ‘ignoring’, which feels more contrived.
I would expect that glimpses would cause jolts of anxiety – take that as normal. I am sure I’d get those jolts if I saw LOs even from my distant past. LEs take some real time to clear. The day you can walk past her in the corridor and feel *nothing* will be a triumphant one, but it could take a while to get there.
Good luck my friend (and with tomorrow too).
I meant to say āshe has always been FACING awayā!
Dear Jmmo,
I agree with Mila and LaR. It is best to avoid anything that gives your body a ‘charge’ – which could be either love or hate. For those of us sharing work space with LOs or even xLOs, the exposure therapy may be a good analogy – get used to seeing them without a charge of emotion in any direction. You know what’s best for you, especially anything that brings down that anxiety around LO.
Incidentally, I’ll be seeing my LO in person soon, I’ve been feeling much better but the proof will be how I react in person. I’m hoping the charge is gone out of it and it will be pleasant, overall. A lot usually depends on him as he’s an awful influence on me when we meet up in person, really validat-y, acts smitten, etc. Although things have cooled on both sides (I think), I need to be prepared for that. My strategy has been to get validation (which is my trigger) from other things. For instance, I am giving myself a lot of validation by being the best version of myself.
I second LaR in wishing you good luck tomorrow, Jmmo. You’ve been trusted with an important role and that shows how deeply you are valued in your family, whatever else happens.
Bx
I must have missed something, whatās on tomorrow for Jmmo?
Bewitched, wish you all the best for LO meeting. Iām quite sure that youāll experience it differently now, or that even if something will get you by surprise, you will be able to stomach it differently afterwards.
Imho, Iāll adopt your way of hiding things in answer-postings, how are you? Any contact or signs of impending visit?
Lots of love to all of you limerents.
Hi Mila
My youngest Aunt (only 8 years older than me and therefore more like a sister – I was very close to her) passed away recently. Her funeral ha tomorrow and I am reading a poem, which will be very hard, but o want to do it for her).
Jmmo
Dear Mila,
Jmmo lost a family member who he was very close to a few weeks ago, he is reading a poem at the funeral tomorrow.
Thanks for your encouragement about my own stuff. I am trying to treat the upcoming reunion like an interesting experiment where I will observe my own reactions from some distance and try to maintain objectivity – always hard for me as I tend to be an ‘all-in’ sort of person. But I know better than anyone that, in this particular situation, my cards are well-marked and I really do need to be on my guard. Even if I get knocked off course, it will be slight, I imagine. That’s been my experience, when the ‘recovery mind-set’ sets-in, its much easier to get back on course and stay going in the right direction. I think that’s also true for some of our limerent friends who are a little bit earlier in their rehab journeys….your ‘recovery mindset’ helps stay on course despite any small slips.
Yes indeed – lots of love to all us limerents!
Oh Iām so sorry Jmmo!
I think itās fantastic and you can be so proud that you will read the poem, she would love it. Donāt worry about how it will go, if you need to pause or whatever- you will do it for her and that matters so much.
Thank you Mila xx
Hello Justme, sending you my best wishes for tomorrow.
I did a eulogy once, standing in for my late father at his best friends funeral. I somehow found the strength to get through it and I’m sure you will too because it’s inherently what you need to do for your dear relatives memory.
X
Thank you everyone.
Just to clarify, I think I have passed the hate stage. Even after the walk past I would still have said I was apathetic. I really didnāt care either way. Having had a couple more sightings, Iām now less resolved in that and am a tiny bit anxious that my view of her is shifting again. Iām not sure which way, but Iām feeling as though itās not in a good way – hence me being careful for a bit longer.
I donāt view it as *having* to avoid her (itās really quite easy), I view it as *choosing* too until such time that I feel I can – as LaR implied – walk back into the pub without worrying about seeing a drink.
Thank you everyone. Your support and encouragement humble me and truly give me comfort.
To Jmmo:
I don’t have anything to add, just sending kindly thoughts your way.
Hi Bewitched,
I worried a bit about myself after that trip because XLO was on my mind a lot in the first days, but Iām back now in balance, we text from time to time and all is well, I donāt think about him more than of other friends. I think this is it now, a final hurdle is taken and we will manage ok as not-that-close but still special friends.
So it could happen that you get a bit confused, that you can feel again the old excitement, but youāll be much better equipped to sort through it and deal with it, and maybe itāll be your final hurdle too?
āŗļø,
I hope it all goes well with your delivery of a poem in todayās memorial service ā Read it slowly with all your heart (let tears run freely if they want to get freeā¦)
āļø
Thank you, dear friend. I didnāt make it without crying, but I did my best xx
āŗļø,
I meant to let your tears run freelyā¦, which would make the memories of your aunt and the reading heartfelt ā¦
Now, please rest and grieve as much as you wishā¦
Hi Mila,
Thank you for enquiring. You are always looking out for me which I really appreciate. There is not much to report. NC for quite a long time now. I do not know the status of his work situation or if he has/will visit my country. I have not reached out since last time, as much as I want to, and he would actually appreciate it.
My nervous system is calmer now. If I were to see him again I know it would sky rocket again, but maybe not as bad. The feelings for him are still very strong in my heart and I fear that will always be the way.
I wish he had more flaws like some others LOs here.
Many things prompt me to think of him, most anything associated with his home country. So that’s a lot of frequent triggers from TV, news etc.
It will get better in time I guess.
I am very glad you landed well following your last meeting with your friend, albeit a bit taxing at the time to find that balance with him again.
@Bewitched, good to read you are in a calm place pending your next meeting, and how you are treating it like a social experiment!
Very pleased you are in control and taming the limerence beast. I am taking notes from you as always.
Hi Imho,
āI wish he had more flaws like some others LOs here.ā
He definitely has some, you will just never experience them since heās far away and youāll never meet him on a daily basis like other LOs.
āI have not reached out since last time, as much as I want to, and he would actually appreciate it.ā
Well, if he would appreciate it that much, he could reach out himself.
Sorry , I just want to get him a bit down from that glorious pedestalš
But maybe itās not necessary! I met my LO2 again, and I have to say, itās so nice and easy to appreciate him and his unique personality since heās not in town any more and I donāt have to deal with his more exhausting traits or hanker after his affectionā¦
I mean, as long as you donāt pine, isnāt it actually a positive thing to have someone in your life who is such a great person and whom you can appreciate as that and maybe be happy to meet whenever it might occur in the future. I stress, as long as you donāt pine after him or set him up as unreachable pinnacle of a man, comparing your SO with this gleaming perfection, (which he most certainly only is in your imagination)ā¦
But you sound calm and ok, and thatās great, and I think it will get all better and more balanced.
I hope work is ok, I remember new challenges and general stress? Or was that me?š
All my best wishes Imhoš
Thank you Mila, your comments and questions are very helpful.
Yes, it is really for him to make contact next. I made the offer to connect and there it sits.
I can’t be waiting around pining.
Am I pining ? In all honesty, probably, but I am trying to be more active and spend time with positive and energy giving people and activities to reduce the pining.
And yes, I probably still have him on a pedestal, but it’s adjusted to a more modest height than initially.
I’m not sure I will get to the same as your LO2. I fear the the raw attraction may always be there.
You really do ask all the right questions !
I don’t like to discuss my SO here too much but there are increasing misalignments. And I want to be away as much as possible. I’m trying to do things regardless of whether SO wants to or not and just be accepting.
On the workfront I have been really struggling with my focus , drive and confidence. I think that’s brain fog from hormone changes plus limerence.
That was a lot of ‘woe is me’ ! Apologies.
Hope your work stresses are getting better.
And on the positive I’ve got nice things planned this weekend with a gf and I’m grateful. Wishing you a lovely weekend ahead š
Hi Imho!
Sorry to hear that things are a bit skewed with SO and also stressful at work.
I can relate!
It sounds as if we are in a similar age phase. Iām ruminating about it for a while now. Of course itās hormones changing, but that sounds a bit dismissive like itās only a physical thing to get through, but I think now that itās a massive shift in how I perceive the world and myself (and I havenāt even entered the hot phase of hormonal change, I believe).
Itās a bit disturbing how depressed or latently aggressive I can become on certain days- I see everything in a different light, I feel overwhelmed. Ir eases up a bit after a few days or maybe itās the gestagen helping Iām taking on certain days, Iām not sure. Still I feel an overall shift.
Iāve always been a very agreeable person and am still, but now I canāt put up with some things any more, like always going the way other people want me to. Maybe thatās a bit whatās happening with your SO, you aligned yourself the whole time and now you think itās too much? But if this is the case, you must bear in mind, that it was you who did the aligning and he got used to it, so itās normal that he might be surprised now? This is pure conjecture coming from my own experience, it might have nothing to do with you, sorry.
It could be that your LO is Mr Dreamy all around and life would be easier with him, but I doubt it seriously. In close day-to-day life issues would arise like with any SO.
Itās so easy to create perfect memories of someone who one met only occasionally for a few hours of mutual attraction that seems the stronger because the meeting was very limited by time and space.
Maybe the solution is letting all flow a bit- doing positive things with other people, getting validation through other projects, while staying open for good moments with SO, maybe occasions to talk a bit without forcing it, mainly not shutting his good sides out? There must be some and maybe heās struggling too.
As to work, think of all you managed all the years. You donāt need proof that you are a good worker. Itās your right to look after yourself and throttle the drive a bit when you need it, and donāt let it set back your confidence.
Have you spoken to your doctor about brain fog? You could try some things, hormones if you like, or increased vitamins (D, iron, B etc). You donāt have to sit through it with clenched teeth, at least thatās what I think, one can always try something and stop it if it seems not good.
I got some gestagen and reduced the dose after one cycle because it might me woozy. Iāve got the impression that it helps to quench some of the restless depressive/aggressive mood I get in on some days (and also regulates period a bit), but could be a placebo effect since maybe that would vanish anyway after a few days.
I wish you all the best again! What I meant is, if thoughts of LO give you a good feeling, itās not a bad thing per Se, they just shouldnāt be the sole reason of feeling good and you shouldnāt have the illusion that things would be a breeze with him . Heās only human after all and bound to have some annoying issues like LaR points out. Iām not sure though if I would make the effort to look for them now, I think the less thoughts spent on him the better, he can be a pleasant memory in the background but not dominating your mind.
I think you are already doing the best thing in planning fun things and being active, and itās also not wrong to just cut yourself a bit of slack and mope around a bit from time to time.
Rooting for youšŖš»
Hi Mila,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts from your own experience also.
“Itās a bit disturbing how depressed or latently aggressive I can become on certain days- I see everything in a different light, I feel overwhelmed”
Me too. I often feel the overwhelm and how to organise my thoughts which leads to a down and indeed probably depression earlier.
I have an appointment for blood tests after the nurse I went to see who was very sympathetic unlike the Doctor who only listens if your life is in danger of ending within the week !
I’m glad if you are finding the hormone ‘top up’ is helping you. I think some trial and error is needed to find the balance that works for your own body and needs. It’s a complex science but you are right to persevere to get the right medication and not just put up with the many symptoms , my goodness the list of symptoms is long ! I won’t bore you with it. I’m also trying to adjust my diet.
“Maybe thatās a bit whatās happening with your SO, you aligned yourself the whole time and now you think itās too much?”
You are so on point with this. I have been too accommodating/ accepting for many years.
Maybe he also has been the same with me on different things around my flaws !
The main thing now is I’m wanting to do more than before and him less, creating a divergence.
“…doing positive things with other people, getting validation through other projects, while staying open for good moments with SO ”
Absolutely, this is what I’m starting to do more. Not forcing it and trying not to be confrontational, just let it be and go do it anyway on my own or with others. We cannot change another person to be more or less of what you want. This much I have learnt. It took a long time to learn that!
I actually don’t dream of being partnered with LO. I knew from the beginning that was not going to happen and my lim brain seems to have accepted that.
I dream of being with him in certain situations and places. It’s escapism and fantasy that my lim brain wants to happen in real life, but knowing it would then create pain of missing him afterwards.
I have actually avoided times of being with LO due to this.
Anyway, I will catch up with you all on accepting DoH on my LE at some point. Like I said I am a slow learner.
Enjoy the rest of the weekend. Mine has had a good balance of fun and moping around !
š
Hi Imho,
āIām also trying to adjust my diet.ā
Thatās my sore spot, I seem not able to eat less sugar.
Which would be crucial, I guess (hello frederico, still around?).
Sugar or food and lately caffeine seems to be something I cannot go without at the moment.
āWe cannot change another person to be more or less of what you want.ā
Thatās true. sometimes it still helps to talk a bit about it, them the other person might get to understand how we tick or how we are different and can make some effort, or at least let us be the way we are, too.
I hope your SO is at least ok with you doing more stuff by yourself as long as you donāt force him to do it too.
I also relate to your way of daydreaming about LO as some form of escapism. Did that a lot(and I think thereās a relation between lack of positive limerent daydreaming (or, like with me, the absolute and terminate absence of it) and sugar intake in my case).
Your weekend sounds like success! We should celebrate these little things more- sun, lazy evenings. Chocolate..no!
š
Hi Mila,
On the diet, I also still turn to sugar foods as alternative to LO.
It’s somewhat an extreme analogy of how drug addicts use alternatives to get the highs.
When I am interacting with or leading up to see LO I am not interested in sugary foods at all.
Afterwards, on the lows or the NC I do turn to it.
What I am doing and I would recommend (I am not an expert btw ) is to increase quality proteins. It satiates and reduces cravings and as we age we need more protein and collagen than you expect. I have been researching.
So more protein and fibre and lifting weights is important for women in middle age.
I also miss Frederico too. (Hello f, if by chance you read this)
“I hope your SO is at least ok with you doing more stuff by yourself as long as you donāt force him to do it too.”
SO doesn’t restrict me but maybe not always happy.
Yes, lovely warmševenings.
Wishing you lots of them over the summer.
š
Hi Imho,
theoretically I know about the importance of protein, but Iām never sure which one..eggs? Cottage cheese?
Collagen is new to me, do you take a supplement?
I have an appointment to join my old gym again next week because I do know that lifting weights seems to be the must-do.
Yes, itās interesting about the sugar-LO connection. Since I seem to have managed to be limerence-free without transferring, I hope to overcome the sugar addiction too some time.
I socialize more than my SO and there was I phase where he wasnāt happy about it. Now itās more ok, but itās still difficult sometimes, especially when I want people to come over or we get invited somewhere and I donāt want to go alone.
Warm lovely evenings are alright, but it gets a bit much at the momentā¦ the night was very hot.
I wish you a good start into the week!š
Hi hot Mila, ha ha ! In every sense of the word.
A variety of natural foods high in protein and not too high in fats, the ones you listed and lean meat, fish, greek yogurt also beans, pulses etc. collagen as a supplement when I remember!
Good for you joining the gym again. I am researching best gyms in my area which I may start after the summer.
I must be more consistent on the whole exercising ! I’m a bit of an all or nothing type person.
Of course I am, as limerence proves !
Stay cool…. š
Hi Imho,
weāll see about the gym, last time I quit because I was getting lower back pains from the machines. But they got new machines and also Iāll get them to show me free weights.
At the moment I really have to force myself to exercise or do anything productive, Iām on low energy. Went running this morning but it was already quite warm and sultry, was really exhausting, to be honest.
Maybe protein will helpā¦ I actually love cottage cheese!
I need to get some work done nowšstruggle with that too, but from tomorrow on the pace will be faster anyway, no excuses possible . Have a good Monday!
“I wish he had more flaws like some others LOs here.”
Imho,
I mean this with absolute care and love only – *every* LO / person has flaws. You just have to be prepared to look for them. Go on, I dare you – tell me one or two points about him that are slightly irritating! I’ll give you a couple back about my MFF if you do!
Mila and Bewitched helped me to look in the right places to see these in MFF long before vDoH …
“there are increasing misalignments”
Sorry to hear this. We are here for you x
Hi LaR,
Thanks for the input. I have really tried on this but whatever negative things I could list are so insignificant they make me feel like a bad person.
Somebody at work said they were annoyed by LO for something he did but that is second hand information that I do not know the full story, so do not judge.
The truth is that I know deep down he will have lots of flaws (as any human being has) but I simply do not know what they are. I have not spent enough time with him to find out.
The total number of hours I have spent with LO ( virtual or in person) is probably way less than 1% of the time you have spent with your MFF.
So maybe I need to make up some flaws, or as Mila suggests just try to think less and not trying to figure out his persona, what he is doing, is he happy, what he feels about me, does he think about me.
Oh, and I actually wore a red dress this week ! I recommend it. Maybe not a dress for you LaR (unless you want to of course. I’m very inclusive) but I generally mean to wear red. I find it helps boost confidence.
Imho šš»
Hi Imho,
Yeah I get it, now you put it like that. I got a prolonged dose of almost ‘exposure therapy’. Then one can’t help but see the flaws. I accept those flaws – we all have them. But they gave me a fuller view and definitely helped tame the limbeast. In a way, to realise that the fantasies wouldn’t be pure fantasies but involve a normal person with good sides and flaws.
I can see how you can’t get that, because all you ever get from the short exposures is the glimmery magical pull of attraction, which let’s face it always makes us show our best sides. And then the agony of the ‘when will the next time be, if at all’. I know this isn’t easy.
You’ll find your way through. This NC should be doing slow good. I agree with your idea above to do more stuff independently / explain to SO but don’t force him to change – good quote about not making them more or less. It is similar in my relationship where I perhaps have the wish to socialise more of the two of us.
And I’m delighted to hear that the power dressing with the š helped you feel good!
I braved something recently that I have procrastinated around forever. I asked SO if she’d like to get to know MFF better socially, but she seemed a bit unsure but did give me a possible ‘in’ if I feel brave enough.
Hi LaR,
ā I asked SO if sheād like to get to know MFF better socially, ā
wow! If I remember right, you kind of vetoed this in the past. Itās a step forward?
Mila,
It could be, we’ll see … I felt brave at the time and now don’t so much š Nothing is imminent, just a casual ‘should we do this at some point’ type conversation.
When you socialised the two of them, did SO comment anything about the vibe between you and LO? Or otherwise seem to pick up on it and react in any way? That would probably be my biggest worry.
Also, MFF has a delightfully snarky sense of humour and is quite comfortable with a bantering ‘put down’ of me. Its part of our dynamic and doesn’t bother me, in fact I do the same in return. I’m not sure if SO might over-interpret all that.
Trucker,
What is your goal here?
I mean … why would your SO want to spend time with a woman you are limerent for? I mean, she’s tolerated the friendship. She hasn’t asked any questions. Shouldn’t you just leave it at that?
LaR,
Iāve had 3 LOs and my SO has met all of them because it would have been a bit weird not to (small town, same circle of friends etc).
I think he didnāt catch the vibe from LO1 and me, which is surprising since that was the strongest and most dangerous physical attraction- but then, there was mutual disclosure and we knew that it would be stupid and mean to let any vibe show, and we didnāt anyway meet often and avoided it because when mutual disclosure happened, then it really feels like a lie to meet up with SOs.
My SO must have caught up on the vibe with LO2, although he never said, but I felt that he was wary about him and didnāt like me meeting him.
With LO3, he was wary at the beginning of our friendship when there was no danger of limerence at all, so I could honestly reassure him. When I was limerent, I think he noticed something but I think he put it more on LO3s side, that he liked me a bit too much, and generally didnāt see him as a danger, I guess (and was right, too).
So yes and no- Iām not quite sure how much he saw. I think he kind of noticed me being attracted or fascinated here and there over the course of our long relationship, but knows that he can basically trust me.
Marcia,
sometimes reality can truly hit home when you donāt separate LO-world and SO-world any more and cease to have this ājust for meā feeling for LO. It can be healthy and it can be weird, it can also not help at all.
But when LaR really aims for a normal friendship with his LO, then it would be weird to deliberately keep SO out of it, wouldnāt it? I mean, donāt friends usually get to know partners of their friends at some point, because otherwise thereās an important piece of life of this friend missing? They donāt have to socialize a lot, but I think to never meet on purpose is a bit dodgy too.
But of course, you (Marcia)might be right and it would be better not to force anything on SO and LO. You made the casual offer which is fine, and now you just might meet anyway at some social event or other , without deliberate invitation for dinner or whatever.
Or do you (LaR) think you would benefit from it now at your current phase? Itās very individual, I think only you can know whatās best.
Mila,
“But when LaR really aims for a normal friendship with his LO, then it would be weird to deliberately keep SO out of it, wouldnāt it? I mean, donāt friends usually get to know partners of their friends at some point, because otherwise thereās an important piece of life of this friend missing? They donāt have to socialize a lot, but I think to never meet on purpose is a bit dodgy too.”
But is it a normal friendship? Is the limerence truly over? Idk. But if I’m the SO and I think I ‘m just meeting an SO’s friend and I somehow pick up on a weird vibe and I suspect what’s going on and I’ve been placed in a situation by my SO, who I supposedly trust, to have to socialize with this person … I would be livid. As in: I’ll- get-out-of-the-way-so-you-can-go-after-her livid.
Marcia,
Mila knows this part from previous conversations with me. She has read my mind in her response. Small town, overlapping circles, could feel weird, and it is much better timing than a year or six months ago when my limerence was off the charts. Sometime I’d like to bring the friendship more into the open for sure.
However, Marcia, I think you’re right about your concern and I thank you for just coming out and saying it. It doesn’t feel fair on SO. I’m not going to force it. I was just exploring, really, how SO would feel about it, if an unforced social event happened that both of them were at.
Mila, thanks for sharing that.
Marcia
“But if Iām the SO and I think I ām just meeting an SOās friend and I somehow pick up on a weird vibe and I suspect whatās going on and Iāve been placed in a situation by my SO, who I supposedly trust, to have to socialize with this person ā¦ I would be livid”
I fully take your point. Thank you for saying it š
LaR,
Thanks for your comments and insights.
For you, a large group social event may be the best way if you feel it should happen at some point naturally in your circle of friends, maybe not force it.
Originally on your first message I thought you may invite MFF for dinner which could be dangerous.
Even without limerence your SO may feel threatened if MFF is attractive, funny and you have ‘in jokes’ between you.
My SO would pick up any tiny vibe of attraction or awkwardness to disguise how I feel or even how I felt in the past, if I were over the limerence. Idk.
I met my LOs SO once. It was tough. I think he secretly enjoyed the danger and thrill of it.
Marcia,
āBut is it a normal friendship? Is the limerence truly over? Idkā
Well, thatās the point. I somehow got the impression that limerence was over (but missed some posts) and now itās about preserving friendship, but thatās what I meant by LaR being the only one who knows what would be best.
Mila,
” but thatās what I meant by LaR being the only one who knows what would be best.”
I don’t know that the limerent does know best. Not if they’re still limerent. But, obviously, I don’t know LaR’s feelings.
LaR,
Are you trying to create drama? š You have what you want — your SO and your LO in your life. I would leave everything alone. I mean, if your SO goes to a work function, introduce them. Or if you’re with your SO and your run into your LO, again, introduce them. You don’t have to run from them being introduced but I wouldn’t create a situation for that to happen. It isn’t your SO’s job to help you spend more time with your LO or figure out your feelings for your LO (if you’re in fact still in that stage). That’s your job.
Marcia and LAR,
I think I cannot give much advice since there wasnāt much choice for me but to introduce my LOs and SO. For them not to meet I would have had to avoid it actively and conspicuously.
So, LaR, the big question seems to be- are YOU ready? Otherwise I would just let things go their way and not force a meeting.
š© š,
I second Marciaās opinion here for two reasons ā
1. SO (most women) can be very sensitive and pick up your vibe for your MFF. If you want to real peace at home, itās unwise to bring MFF into the dynamic.
2. (My old nagging point): you do NOT know whether MFF was/is in well-hidden LE with you, and sheās still single (unlike Milaās xLO who has a steady, safe nest). Your LFF could prohibit her from eliminating her LE for you.
Your LE ember or continuous presence could/would keep her āorbitingā around you, instead of her going out to seek her own LO or SO candidates. (I was in her position with ET and knew how it feltā¦. If ET had E/M reciprocated a bit more, I would be more stuck… )
Letās not return to the old argument that she has her own freedom and power to walk awayā¦ You know well that once we are caught in LE-mouse trap, itās almost impossible to get free on our own, and now you even think about bringing her to your SO, it sounds āmaddeningā š³ ā¼ļø
Even this possibility is tiny, you still need to consider it as a close friend to MFF. You canāt ever reciprocate her LFF, itād be true kindness to get out of her pathā¦. You can always go back to your PPF (pure platonic friendship) after you both are totally out of this LFF!
Mila, LaR,
Forgive me to say that I still sense you both are in LFF with your LO, respectively. I canāt help feel this way from all bits of your chatsā¦.
Hi Snow,
āForgive me to say that I still sense you both are in LFF with your LO, respectively. I canāt help feel this way from all bits of your chatsā¦.ā
I do forgive you but you are wrong;)
Mila,
Okay, Iām wrong and will remain wrong for nowā¦ š«
Iām working 16 hours on an Election Day, better not ramble todayā¦
āļø,
I dont think you are wrong about me. It is a different and milder flavouring of LFF (kind of the masala to last year’s vindaloo), but it’s a flavouring all the same. Your thoughts were appreciated (as indeed, Mila, were yours)
Snow, good luck with your long day at the election and at thinking of how to keep š©šŗ happy.
š© š š½,
Youāre welcome and thank you! My day is feeling like a week longā¦ š
Hope my volunteering supervisor is still on vacation so I can make a few bucks from Sir š© šŗā¦ š¤£
Hello,
Jmmo – mentioning the sighting made me start wondering what life post-limerence will be like, and what I want it to be like. What most of us want is to remain friends with LO but without them having this magical hold over us. But as Dr L points out, it’s unrealistic! I would be fine if our lives could just go in different directions and for me not to see him; if he were a work colleague who left the company, for example. That’s not going to happen. The most I can hope for is a natural-looking drifting apart, without anyone noticing, and I need to envisage what that is going to look like.
Norma Desmond – interesting what you say about his house. You mention previously that your family have all abandoned you, and you always talk fondly of his mother. I assumed that it was close family that you were yearning for. Do you have a support network of friends around you, or are you lonely in that regard?
I’ve been thinking more about what Dr L explains about our brain and the role of dopamine. I feel quite positive at the moment: I think that the conditions in my life and in my marriage that made me vulnerable to limerence are largely resolved, but the crush continues out of habit. I haven’t seen LO for a couple of weeks, which helps me to think more objectively. Today I’ve been thinking about the habit I have of everything reminding me of LO, and my brain constantly seeking those little reminders. I realise that my brain creates those connections and reminders, then perpetuates them by planting them everywhere. It sounds ridiculous but I have got into the habit of looking at cars when I’m out & about, in case I see his car. And since his car is a very common model and colour, I read all the number plates. So my latest challenge to myself is to not look at cars (except to avoid getting run over) and not to read number plates. I am actively looking at other stuff instead: trees, the sky, houses, that kind of thing. It feels like a positive thing to do, and a mindful change in order to kick a really silly habit. It’s just a habit!
I recognize that habit! Iāve done that with past LOās.
To Monochrome:
I miss my family. I have some nice friends, but they certainly don’t replace my children. I am very fond of LO’s mother. I envy her, in the sense that she has such a supportive extended family, and at the same time, I think I secretly wish she was MY mother, who I also miss very much.
I am sure a psychologist could have a lot of fun with this.
Look for a Freudian.
It’s ALWAYS the mother…
Mother knows best.
Disagree!
Mother the original source of saint or evilā¦ depends on oneās luck! š
Sorry Miss Snow Iām one of those guys that would make Freud proud. Along with all the girls calling their boyfriends ādaddyā.
Adam,
My response to LO #2’s great confession was that I didn’t need a mother, I was looking for a partner. I told LO #2 that I’d had a mother and I wasn’t too impressed with her.
When the therapist read that story in my history of the relationship, she said that was one of the most significant things in it.
My then ex-girlfriend was explaining herself to me and I immediately snapped her to my mother.
The therapist said that on an unconscious level, I knew where my attraction to LO #2 came from. But, since I didn’t understand my relationship with my mother, I couldn’t understand my relationship with LO #2.
LE
Every romantic encounter Iāve had, including LO, was fueled by being mothered. I took care of her and looked after her (one gal in particular before I met my wife was gas on the bonfire) and she looked over me. My biological mother was judge, jury and executioner. She was my Julie Andrews. My Barbara Billingsley. She was all roles rolled into one. And I either consciously or subconsciously seek that out in potential romantic partners.
It was my downfall with LO. As she would mother me and look after me in my own neglect of myself. I guess my defining fact is Iām not murdering ladies in showers with a knife. But then again, my mother is still alive.
Imagine me having female authority issues. I mean I did pay a woman to test those boundaries so ā¦
The Best Manager I ever had was a Woman. She took care of us, pushed us, and corrected us when we needed it.
I was just out of High School and she was probably in her early 40s at the time. She was like a second mother to us. Keeping watch over her brood.
My brother. Love those kind of women. They are my kryponite. Glad to see you still posting.
I think why Iām in conflict with my favorite dame here; Dame Marcia aināt puttin up with my $hit and Den Mother Lovisa melts my heart.
Oh and ask Dame Marcia on date already ffs. š
“Dame Marcia aināt puttin up with my $hit and Den Mother Lovisa melts my heart.”
Adam,
You just have keep pecking at the Great Dame. I think she likes you just fine and probably prefers you over me anyway because your younger and married.. She likes poking fun at your vocabulary too which I love.. It won’t help you though preferring the Den Mother over her. The Dame needs the attention.. š
“Oh and ask Dame Marcia on date already ffs. š”
I already have asked her but she’s too busy at her lousy meetups or whatever they are and then she’s got 4 other Dudes in the cue she’s playing roulette with. Got no way of getting in with that crowd. Also, I’m too old. We’re the same age..
Dame Marcia does have her options right? Iād take her out for beer and nachos. You know Charlie Richās Most Beautiful Girl In The World? Tag that before itās too late. Donāt be Dame Marciaās stubborn a$$ Buffy to your stubborn a$$ Angel.
Also Iād really like to ask Miss Norma out on a date. But Iām too shy to ask her.
MJ and Adam,
You just have keep pecking at the Great Dame. I think she likes you just “fine and probably prefers you over me anyway because your younger and married.. ”
True. I do like Adam better. š
“It wonāt help you though preferring the Den Mother over her. The Dame needs the attention.. š”
He can like other women but I have to be the one he likes the most. š
“I already have asked her but sheās too busy at her lousy meetups or whatever they are and then sheās got 4 other Dudes in the cue sheās playing roulette with.”
All of that has changed. I’m down to one. And he’s not doing much.
“Also, Iām too old. Weāre the same age..”
Now you know how it feels! For someone your exact age to be cruising for younger people! š
“Dame Marcia does have her options right?”
Not any options that I want.
Hey can like other women but I have to be the one he likes the most. š
Iām flattered Dame Marcia. You are my wife and Miss Lovisa is my LO transference. Either way both of you, like alcohol, is a detriment to me. Miss Lovisa will always have my heart.
Miss Norma, let me pull out your chair for you young lady.
Adam,
“Miss Lovisa will always have my heart.”
š
āMiss Lovisa will always have my heart.ā
I’m glad I didn’t say that.. š¤£š¤£
To Adam:
Ooh, are you talking to ME?
“To Adam:
Ooh, are you talking to ME?”
ND,
He is. He’s trying to flatter you.. š
Oh no she found it!
I honestly forgot this conversation. But I meant it then and now. So, yes, Miss Norma if I was available, I would like to take you out on a date. Take you to dinner and maybe watch an old man stubble around trying to dance with you. Every person in the restaurant and dancehall would know exactly why we are together.
As long as you’d at least dance with me to my favorite dancing song …
Slow Dancing -=- Johnny Rivers
https://youtu.be/tmiNLVTDFDI?si=l37-m1MP_4MgZJSl
Adam,
Judging by some goings on in another thread, Miss Norma is currently busy with your Brother. Time to step your game up my friend!
To Adam:
I would love to dance with you. But I think I am far far older than you are.
To LaR:
Until someone is able to tell me what MJ and I are supposed to do in the Naughty Room, I have plenty of time.
Hi all,
It’s been a while, and I wanted to give you a few updates.
First, @Tom, I’m not sure if it’s the way to reach you but your blog on ocytocine impact is very cool. From an evolutionary/game theory point of view, the results on social conduct and reading are particularly consistent with peri-natality. Human don’t (didn’t) give birth and raise kids just with a mate; it’s the period where the help of the group is the most absolutely necessary and being excluded would likely mean death for the mother and infant. It’s logical that the mother would conduct in a way to promote social interaction and fear exclusion. I wonder if it plays a role in limerence over-reading of LO social clues, though.
Second, my LE have significantly improved.
@Sammy, hats off to you: some of your remarks a while back about our limerent brain playing tricks on our perception and making me/us insufferable and needy have actually helped a lot. Somehow it helped me realize that the only way to have a cordial/friendly relationship with LO and mend this horrible mess was to fight the LE, avoid ruminating and preparing what I wanted to say, and since my LE brain was on board with the first part it seems to have sticked well this time. Our relationship is normalizing and it’s very cool: I’m starting to be more authentic, so I irritate her a lot less and her teaching is a lot more productive, and I feel like I’m starting to discover LO as a person with all the things that make her mad, that I previously anxiously thought were my fault. Since we’re still ping-ponging emotions at high rate, less diving into crippling anxiety is a very very welcome respite.
Also, I got pregnant. (After the LE started to improve: no putting everything on hormones!). While some lows of the first trimester called back the downside aspects of limerence (hormones, yes) it has mostly normalized and the new adventure helps move my attention away from fuelling the LE with rumination… Until the next mood swing š¤·
Good luck everyone!
S.anon- congratulations on the pregnancy! I hope you’re feeling ok and everything goes smoothly.
Thanks @Monochome!
Yeah for now everything is fine (as long as I don’t miss a meal- else I become a gremlin š ). I’m not that young, so I hope it runs smoothly too!
Best wishes
Hi my dear @jmmo
i am just writing to let you know i am thinking of you today. i believe today is the service/funeral for your loved one. i hope it is a peaceful day for you, and for your family.
i am sure this must be a very, very intense time for you. hopefully, after today, things will naturally feel as if they are beginning to settle a bit. you have had quite a series of personal situations go on, in pretty quick succession…
i did see your post about running into xlo again, and the anxiety that created. i can imagine. from what i read, it sounded like you were not in the state you used to be in, but, the feeling of anxiety was in a way just as disconcerting…it is never fun to have someone like that around…where we kind of have a past with them, and it’s “icky” (for lack of a better word).
i know if that happened to me, i’d be rocked. i would probably need to spend the next few days in a padded room, freaking out and then taking lots of naps…i’d definitely be shaking.
this despite the fact i feel i have still made good progress!….things take a LONG time to leave our brain…completely. i suppose that lizard-brain is hanging on. and that’s what it does, so, it makes sense…but it is not convenient at all.
i will go back up and see if there’s anything i missed, but because i believe there’s a time difference, i wanted to make sure i posted so you would hopefully see it…if i don’t hear back from you in a couple of days, i’ll just bump this up.
with care and thinking of you today….
csc
Dearest csc
Thank you so much. It was a sad but lovely day, and we sent her off in a way she would have loved. I cried through my poem, which has disappointed me – yet everyone else was so reassuring. She was carried in to Mr Blue Sky – she loved ELO too.
Today I feel tired, and a bit empty. I know itās reaction.
Yes my dear csc, I think the accumulation of sightings of xLO in a short space of time had unnerved me a little. I think my brain started firing off little warning shots, to protect me from over confidence. It has definitely confirmed that my rehab continues – as if I didnāt know!
For now, I am going to try to rest and allow my grief to flow as it wishes. It would be easier if I didnāt have to contemplate āthat womanā at work every day, but it is fairly easy to avoid her.
Hope you see this. Iāll. bump it up as you say if needed
Thank you again for thinking of me and for getting in touch
Your affectionate blp
Jmmo xx
I hope that you are ok, and continuin
Hi csc
Just bumping this up so you see my reply
Jmmo xx
Hi csc. Hope you see this āš»āš»
Hi Jmmo, CsC,
Just wanted to share that you can use the ‘Find in page’ function on each blog post to check if you have any updates from your favourite people š
Sorry if you already know this.
It may reduce the stress of seeing your comments dropping out of the ‘most recent comments’ area. I know how annoying that is when you want specific people to see your heartfelt comment.
(Jmmo, I sent you a comment once which I am pretty sure you missed and never saw, because I think you would have responded. It’s ok. But just wanted to use as an example how it happens )
I try not to post too many random posts to spam it, even when I see I made a major typo ! Although I have been quite active on LwL today.
Very best wishes to you both and the great progress under challenging circumstances
x
Thank you Imho.
I have to say that the ātop 12ā is easily the most annoying thing on this site.
Thanks for your guidance
Jmmo xx
ā cried through my poem, which has disappointed meā
But isnāt this the best way! Itās genuine and heartfelt. I guess a lot of people were crying along with you and thatās so appropriate for a loss, isnāt it. No reason for disappointment. Iām glad it went ok and you felt that she would have loved it.
Thanks Mila
Yes youāre right. It is- measure of how her loss is felt by us all.
Jmmo
I saw LO last night. We usually run into each other on Thursday nights. I have managed to avoid him the last few weeks. I have mixed feelings.
He gave me an update on his strange housing situation. His escrow is set to close in September; but his current house is not even on the market yet, and it is a huge, white-elephant which is not likely to sell quickly.
I wondered privately why he had to jump the gun and make a purchase so quickly when the sale of the current house could take an entire year? I said nothing, because, what’s the point? He doesn’t care what I think. Plus, what’s done is done.
I didn’t seek him out; he sought me out. I feel conflicted and discouraged.
Norma Desmond, please don’t feel discouraged. He stirs up feelings but it’s just a setback. Please believe that you’ll be feeling more back to normal in a day or two.
By the way, as Iām discussing self-scrutiny with LaR, has anyone read āThe Mountain is youā by Brianna Wiest? Iām thinking of reading it because someone recommended it to me, but not sure.
To Mila:
I have not read it, but you got me curious. I went and looked at the reviews, which are overwhelmingly positive. I sometimes find it more instructive to read the three-star reviews. One in particular struck me–which is that the book is repetitive, has no table of contents, and the reviewer wonders what the author’s credentials are to write about mental health topics?
So then I read a sample. The writer’s style is off-putting to me, but you may feel differently.
Hi Norma,
you are like me, I also read reviews and sample. I liked the sample, but the reviews made me a bit wary. One review recommended āthe happiness trapā so Iām downloading a sample of that nowšmaybe Iāll get along by just reading samplesā¦
To Mila:
Good luck. I get the impression that you might be too sophisticated for this book? Not sure.
The nice thing about most books is that they aren’t very costly. If you make a mistake, it’s not the end of the world.
So I told my best girlfriend about my encounter with LO the other night. She was extremely critical. She said I should have taken greater pains to avoid him.
She could be right, but I can only do what I can do. I am not as strong as she thinks I should be. Since LO and I are neighbors and have a few minor entanglements, I may have to be okay with limited contact until he moves.
This is not the end of the world. I have already made some progress. I have already learned that he is not the kindly, supportive person I imagined him to be. After the surprise bombing last night, I was tempted to text him to talk about it, but I know better than to do that. He would either not answer, or say something that upsets me.
I am going to have to be satisfied with slow progress.
Norma D, good for you to know better than to text him. I would say you have progressed, not that slowly actually, if you compare to when you first posted here.
Slow progress is normal.
Snail over here!
To Imho:
It took me forever to realize that LO is NOT a comforting person. I don’t know what made me think he was. He drinks his tea out of a Grinch mug; I should have figured that out sooner.
“We are what we pretend to be so we must be careful what we pretend to be.” – Kurt Vonnegut “Mother Night”
Marcia,
By the power vested in me as LwL Curmudgeon in Residence, I pronounce you the current reigning “Agony Aunt of LwL.”
Ideally, the award would come with a crown, sash, flowers and be handed out at The Limmy Awards.
However, since DrL is dragging his feet on the Limmys, I’m running the program and you get to keep it until I decide to give it somebody else.
To L.E.:
I am curious as to what other awards might be available? I am always looking for an excuse for a Red Carpet event.
ND,
The Limmys have a number of categories. They come periodically in posts. There are some detailed one.
I’m still waiting for the first LwL Lifetime Achievement Award from DrL. I’m sure it’s just been delayed in the mail for the last 3-5 years.
To L. E.
Is there a category for “Most Likely To Fall Off The Wagon?”
Please consider me as a possible nominee.
Hmm,
There is a category for most spectacular relapse. Nominees are often also in consideration for the worst consequences category.
I think there would be too many nominees in the “falling off the wagon” category.
However, I’m from outside Chicago. Everything is negotiable.
To L.E.:
Please nominate me for something. I know I won’t win, but it’s an honor just to be nominated.
By the power vested in me as LwL’s Curmudgeon in Residence, Norma Desmond is awarded the 2025 Limmy for Best Screen Name Based on a Fictional Character.
To L.E.:
Thank you so much! I am sorry I don’t have a speech prepared.
“Norma Desmond is awarded the 2025 Limmy for Best Screen Name Based on a Fictional Character.”
I’ll drink to that.. š¾š„
LE,
“By the power vested in me as LwL Curmudgeon in Residence, I pronounce you the current reigning āAgony Aunt of LwL.ā
Ideally, the award would come with a crown, sash, flowers and be handed out at The Limmy Awards.”
I don’t want it. If I get an award, I pick it out. It’s not picked out for me. And these are all jokes between me and my dudes — Adam and MJ. š
Here are some options I would accept:
1.) Most Luscious Limerent
2.) Funniest Limerent
3.) Most Sledgehammer Limerent š
“And these are all jokes between me and my dudes ā Adam and MJ.”
Marcia,
You said “My Dudes”
(MJ laughing like Butthead)
š¤£š¤£š¤£
Marcia,
I feel entitled to offer you nr 3, āmost sledgehammer limerentā. Can I add the big heart? No? Oh well.
No crown, sash or flowers, but a sledgehammer made out of Hu chocolate?
š , the biggest sledgehammer šØ of out of giant š« š š« !
MJ,
“You said āMy Dudesā
(MJ laughing like Butthead)
š¤£š¤£š¤£”
Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. You said “butt.” š
Mila,
“I feel entitled to offer you nr 3, āmost sledgehammer limerentā. Can I add the big heart? No? Oh well.”
That’s sweet of you to say, but can one be a sweet sledgehammer? š
Mila and Snow,
“No crown, sash or flowers, but a sledgehammer made out of Hu chocolate?”
“š , the biggest sledgehammer šØ of out of giant š« š š« !”
I like it! š
āYou said āMy Dudesā
(MJ laughing like Butthead)
š¤£š¤£š¤£ā
“Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. You said ābutt.ā š”
Marcia,
For what it’s worth, I’m just elated you’re actually the only living, breathing human on the planet right now, referring to me as one of your Dudes.
I won’t try to get a big head about it though. I’ll do something to mess that up and then be referring to you in past tense.. Never seems to fail.. š
Sorry, Marcia,
The awards you say that you’re willing to accept cannot be conferred, they have to be earned.
Just as the Olympics will bring in a new sport, the Limmys may bring in new categories for awards.
Just fill out the as yet non-existent request form and submit it to the as yet non-existent committee.
We’ll get back to you.
In case you want to get an early start, acceptance speeches are limited to 2 minutes unless you look really hot and don’t sound like Edith Bunker, in which case you get 3 minutes.
“Unless you look really hot and donāt sound like Edith Bunker, in which case you get 3 minutes.”
I’m thinking Marcia probably sounds like Blanche from the Golden Girls..
We can handle 3 minutes of that.. š
L.E.,
“Just fill out the as yet non-existent request form and submit it to the as yet non-existent committee.
Weāll get back to you.”
I honestly don’t care. I’m Marlon Brando. You give me an award, I’ll just send someone there to make some political statement in my absence and refuse it. š
“In case you want to get an early start, acceptance speeches are limited to 2 minutes unless you look really hot ”
I’ll do the best I can. š
MJ,
“Iām thinking Marcia probably sounds like Blanche from the Golden Girls..
We can handle 3 minutes of that.. š”
I’m not that big of a floozy. š
“For what itās worth, Iām just elated youāre actually the only living, breathing human on the planet right now, referring to me as one of your Dudes.”
I do think of you as one of my dudes. I mean, I want to slap you sometimes. Snow may do it for me. š But I think you’re basically a good guy.
“I wonāt try to get a big head about it though. Iāll do something to mess that up and then be referring to you in past tense.. Never seems to fail.. š”
Yeah, probably best for you not to speak. š
“Iām not that big of a floozy. š”
Marcia,
Awww, I’m touched you think I’m a good guy.. Thank you. I might just shed a tear.. š
Truth be told I don’t think you’re that much of a floozy either. You actually remind me of Janeane Garofolo and she’s aged pretty well.
So if you look like her or somewhat like she did in “The Cable Guy”, then you’re probably still kinda hot. I’d listen to you for maybe even more than 3 minutes.šš
Marcia & MJ-šŖ£š¦
āSnow may do it for meā.
I canāt! MJ is made of a bucket of tears, if I try to slap him, Iād be drowned to a pool of tearsā¦
Give me something/someone with substance to āslapā onā¦
I can take abuse from a woman. Whether I need to pay her or she will do it for free. I’ve done it before.
And that’s me sober up there ^ Unlike last time. And no I am not going to go find what embarrassing things I might have posted last time.
š© š„ ,
It looks like I can possibly make money out of LwL, I do have a PayPal account hereā¦. š
Sir Adam, how do you want to be abused, specifically? Can I substitute your Dame Marcia for the task? š¤
MJ,
“Awww, Iām touched you think Iām a good guy.. Thank you. I might just shed a tear.. š”
Please don’t. š
“You actually remind me of Janeane Garofolo and sheās aged pretty well.”
I’m actually impressed with that choice. Smart, attractive, age appropriate. Look at you growing up. š
“So if you look like her or somewhat like she did in āThe Cable Guyā, then youāre probably still kinda hot. Iād listen to you for maybe even more than 3 minutes.šš ”
Dude … of course I don’t look like her in “The Cable Guy.” That movie was out 30 years ago. You should have stopped while you were ahead. No woman wants to hear she’s “kinda” hot.
Snow,
“I canāt! MJ is made of a bucket of tears, if I try to slap him, Iād be drowned to a pool of tearsā¦Give me something/someone with substance to āslapā onā¦”
Yeah, you’re right.
“I canāt! MJ is made of a bucket of tears, if I try to slap him, Iād be drowned to a pool of tearsā¦”
Snow,
Damn!! š¤Æ
That’s how you feel?? š
“You should have stopped while you were ahead. No woman wants to hear sheās ākindaā hot.”
Marcia,
You didn’t get the gist of my point.. I was trying to say she was pretty hot back in the day and has aged well.
So if you “were” pretty hot back in the day (like her) then you’ve probably aged well yourself.. Hence why I get on your a$$ to quit calling yourself old.. š
Maybe I’ll just shut up now.. Else I’ll get double slapped by you and Snow.. šš
“Iām actually impressed with that choice. Smart, attractive, age appropriate. Look at you growing up.”
Marcia,
Told you I have good taste.. And you thought I was seriously into “30 and under” only..
Oh the shame of it! The shame of it!! šš
MJ šŖ£ š¦,
Donāt you stop š for LOā¦ Your Grandpa always loved splashy dips in your waterfall š š
“Your Grandpa always loved splashy dips in your waterfall”
Snow
True, but you see he’s disappeared again. Like my other go-to Cordelia.. So now it’s just you, Lovisa and the Agony Aunt to keep me in place.. Pardon my tears if I need a good Woman’s shoulders to cry on. š
MJ,
“You didnāt get the gist of my point.. I was trying to say she was pretty hot back in the day and has aged well.
So if you āwereā pretty hot back in the day (like her) then youāve probably aged well yourself.. Hence why I get on your a$$ to quit calling yourself old.. š”
Ok, ok. I’ll stop referring to myself as ancient. š
(I don’t mean to disappoint you, but I don’t look like JG.)
“Maybe Iāll just shut up now.. Else Iāll get double slapped by you and Snow.. šš”
You’d probably like it. š
“Told you I have good taste.. And you thought I was seriously into ā30 and underā only..
Oh the shame of it! The shame of it!! šš”
I feel no shame! š
MJ šŖ£ š,
I wonāt Slap your š¦ š š¦ anytimeā¦.
But you need verbally š£š¢wail š š louder š£š¢, so you could wake up your grandpa, who is either hibernating or hatching an new š„ā¦ for the LwL wall š
Fine…Marcia
We’ll put your Agony Aunt Award on an, as yet non-existent, plaque and hang it in the, as yet non-existent, LwL Hall of Fame.
MJ šŖ£ š¦ ,
Now, Let me dry up your šā
https://youtube.com/shorts/bDR2C-lC0uw?feature=shared
There, thereā¦ šŗšæ
Thanks Snow..
I’ll be alright and and so will Sammy Sams.
He’ll be back. He has a tendency to ebb and flow you know.. š
Miss Snow
For all the times I have called Dame Marcia ma’am, I am a bit afraid of how well she might carry out that task if given it.
š© š„,
After 16 hours of hard race in my town, Iām giving my concession to Dame Marcia, my multitalented sister! Sheās indeed won Agony Award š for the LwL Hall of Fame. Stoned by Stoic herbs, Iām only 5% in agony nowadays.
Thus, let Grand Dameās ONE and Only hand to deliver your deserved service, Adam! Just tell us how you feel afterwardsā¦. š
MJ š¦ šŖ£ š¦ ,
I know, I know ā¦.
Itās just my town has been 96-100 F for the past 3 days and today, Iāve been in delirium and wish some icy-hails from the chilly continentā¦
Meanwhile, Iāll keep dipping in your cool š¦ š š¦ ā¦
Adam,
“For all the times I have called Dame Marcia maāam, I am a bit afraid of how well she might carry out that task if given it.”
As you should be. š
Snow,
“After 16 hours of hard race in my town, Iām giving my concession to Dame Marcia, my multitalented sister! Sheās indeed won Agony Award š for the LwL Hall of Fame. ”
Were you running in a race?
I’m not crazy about that name. It sounds like I’m an old bitty who’s kind of bitchy. š
Dame Marcia,
āWere you running in a race?ā
No, I was not. I just wanted to make a few extra bucks to serve Adam wished lady āabuseā (while my volunteering supervisor, MJās grandpa, is on a long vacationā¦), but Adam,š© š„, evidently prefers your service! š
So Iām giving LwL Hall of Fame to you! š¤
“(I donāt mean to disappoint you, but I donāt look like JG.)”
Marcia,
All good. You probably look better. Although I guess I’ll never know. Let that be the fun of our friendship. We can keep guessing.. š
“Youād probably like it.š”
Agree.. šš
“Iām not crazy about that name. It sounds like Iām an old bitty whoās kind of bitchy.”
I’m the only one allowed to call you an Old Bitty.. šš
Snow,
“No, I was not. I just wanted to make a few extra bucks to serve Adam wished lady āabuseā”
See … I’ll do it for free. š
“(while my volunteering supervisor, MJās grandpa, is on a long vacationā¦),”
Ummm … is his grandpa in his 90s? š
“but Adam,š© š„, evidently prefers your service! š”
I think I’m a little meaner. š
MJ,
“All good. You probably look better. Although I guess Iāll never know. Let that be the fun of our friendship. We can keep guessing.. š”
Who do you look like?
[āYouād probably like it.šā]
“Agree.. šš”
You would need to do more to get out of the Naughty room. You don’t deserve it yet. š
“Iām the only one allowed to call you an Old Bitty.. šš”
Nobody can!
“Why is this the first time Iām hearing about this naughty room? Iām not naughty. Neither is my Brother from another Mother Adam. We are not naughty. Weāre good Dudes.”
You two have been in the Naughty room for your whole lives. š
Norma Desmond:
“I would strongly encourage you to try āSuccessionā again. I donāt think itās just me. This show won multiple awards and is one of the best things I have ever seen.”
Oh, yeah, I know it’s a popular show and got tons of awards.
“I am glad to have some company in the Naughty Section. Otherwise, I will be ruminating about LO too much. Who actually is a pretty fair imitation of the unpleasant/irritable/jerk version of Mr. Darcy.”
Give Mr. Darcy a chance. He changes, as I’m sure you’re aware. š
“Well, letās make the best of it. What is there to do in the Naughty Room?”
Make gifts and cards for me. š
LE,
I can’t find your original post.
The song “Sledgehammer” is … er … NOT about a sledgehammer. š
Dame Marcia,
āSee ā¦ Iāll do it for free. šā
I always work part-time and need extra bucks to hire someone to clean my bathroomā¦
āUmmm ā¦ is his grandpa in his 90s? šā
Yes ā the One and Only who could not help advise and supervise without *coughā¦ cough* ā¦ š«£ Your dude, MJ šŖ£ š¦ loves him all the way to the galaxy š ā¦
Youāre 107 and Iām 286, but we chat up to the Silver Moon šš« with inexhaustible laughers ā¦ š¤ š š ā¦
Lady Snow,
“I always work part-time and need extra bucks to hire someone to clean my bathroomā¦:
MJ will do it! š
“Youāre 107 and Iām 286, but we chat up to the Silver Moon šš« with inexhaustible laughers ā¦ š¤ š š ā¦”
We’re both old. š
Lady Marcia,
āMJ will do it! šā
An excellent recommendation ā it can save my water bill! š¦ š¦
āWeāre both old. šā
Nah! A phoenix š¦āš„ lifespan is 500 years old, arenāt we having our daily giggly š¤£ tea š« šµ in her nest šŖ¹āļø
Youāre still a dashing chick š£ on the Silver š with marvelous dudes, such as MJ šŖ£ š¦ and Adam š© whisky š„, under your wings, Dame Marcia!
We chirp with laughs š« not coughsā¦ š«
Lady Snow,
[āMJ will do it! šā]
“An excellent recommendation ā it can save my water bill! ”
He’ll do it, and he’ll like it! š
“A phoenix š¦āš„ lifespan is 500 years old, arenāt we having our daily giggly š¤£ tea š« šµ in her nest šŖ¹āļø”
We’re phoenixes rising! š
“Youāre still a dashing chick š£ on the Silver š with marvelous dudes, such as MJ šŖ£ š¦ and Adam š© whisky š„, under your wings, Dame Marcia!”
Where is LaR? He’s not going to be in the Naughty room, he’s going to be in Solitary. š
“Ummm ā¦ is his grandpa in his 90s?”
Marcia,
Ummm, Snow is referring to Sammy Sams. Her polite little name jab at him. What are you, living under a rock? š
“I think Iām a little meaner.”
You can say that again. š
“Who do you look like?”
If you must know, in High School a girl once told me she thought I looked like Garry Shandling.. Whatever the hell she was on I don’t know, but I never saw it.. In my 20s I was told I look like a Arnold Schwarzenegger. Which I guess take or leave that as a compliment, but I don’t know. Most recently a Friend told me I remind him of Jason Segal from “How I met your Mother.”
In reality though, I’m actually just a big, dumb, oaf.. š
“You two have been in the Naughty room for your whole lives.”
You’re just saying that because we’re middle aged Dudes with younger LOs..
I still don’t know what the problem with that is. I mean the Woman is a freaking Goddess to like the 500th power and beyond. She deserves adoration and I will give it to her!! She would be perfect with a big, dumb oaf like me.. š
Snow
“Your dude, MJ šŖ£ š¦ loves him all the way to the galaxy š ā¦”
Not as much as I do LO..
āMJ will do it! š
An excellent recommendation ā it can save my water bill! š¦ š¦”
Just because I tear up now and then doesn’t mean I want to clean up in your necessary room. Lord knows what you do in there and I really don’t want to think about or even spruce things up after you.. Oh the shame of you two.. š
[āMJ will do it! šā
Heāll do it, and heāll like it! š]
Iāll make sure there is a pot of hot coffee always on the stoveā¦
[āA phoenix š¦āš„ lifespan is 500 years old, arenāt we having our daily giggly š¤£ tea š« šµ in her nest šŖ¹āļøā
Weāre phoenixes rising! š]
DrLās words, ālike Phoenix š¦āš„, rising!ā
āageā and ādeathā do NOT exist on the Silver Moon! Only rebirth, rebirth, and REBIRTH š¦āš„!
āWhere is LaR? Heās not going to be in the Naughty room, heās going to be in Solitary. šā
LaR š š½ ran away from your lineup him with MJ šŖ£ š¦ and Adam š© š„ against the Wall, and hide in the recovery room with Mila š„ š š· , trying to distinguish their respective LO and SO, as ā
PPF āPure Platonic Friend
MFF ā Mentally Fondled Friend
LFF ā Limerent Flavored Friend
LFO ā Limerent- Flavored Lover
LSOā Limerent Flavored SO
BSO ā Background SO
By the way, I like Lizzie in 1980 version series (more intellectual and vulnerable) , Mr. Darcy looks more aristocratic and snobbish for the first half, but unconvincingly warm or affectionate on the 2nd half.
The above message is to Lady Marcia ā my INFP Sister! š¦āš„ š¦āš„
Together, we can take any INFJ š„ lineups š„
“Where is LaR?”
He’s doing time for thought crime.
So how long is the solitary sentence I’ve been condemned to, ‘beyond the naughty room’, Ladies Marcia and Snow?
MJ š¦ šŖ£ š¦,
[Your dude, MJ šŖ£ š¦ loves him all the way to the galaxy šā
Not as much as I do LO..]
Of course NOT as much; otherwise, youād fall into an Androgynous Planet. Your LSO ā Limerence Soaked LO lives beyond our MilkyWay, just one more Lightyear beyond your reachā¦ š š¦āš„ š¢ Iām crying for you nowā¦ š š¦
āJust because I tear up now and then doesnāt mean I want to clean up in your necessary room. ā
If I describe my aromatic-scent ānecessary roomā filled with pure, steamy spring water, Iām sure you will do itā¦ š
āLord knows what you do in there and I really donāt want to think about or even spruce things up after you.. Oh the shame of you two.. šā
I canāt spice your imagination here, or your coughing Grandpa might spring out of his cozy hibernation and wave his crutches on the two most magnificent š¦āš„ š¦āš„ ā¦
NO shame š„ āļø no shame š„ āļøā¦
LaR š© š ,
āHeās doing time for thought crime.ā
Oh, laaaa! Who has sentenced you š³ā Iāve never being a thought police womanā¦š®
āSo how long is the solitary sentence Iāve been condemned to, ābeyond the naughty roomā, Ladies Marcia and Snow?ā
I sneaked š„ š š· in your room, so you could have never-ending, fun š£ debatesā¦ š£ā¦
š¢ who has the šā. Maybe LEās šØāš stole it for a revenge š§ā
There are inanimate things out there loving each other
francine j. harris
the way that soap loves an airborne virus.
Wants nothing more than to whisk it all away. Half fragile
as water, half hydrophobic wildchild. Doing it daily
as thirst trap. Posing in the fat of fruit. in the lipid
of a milking cow. Itās unfair to say
itās afraid of anything. Hunting virus by riding hydro.
Mobbing the scene in micelle. Trailing pond for a bond.
Shooting its shot near the nearest swarm of greasy tail. How
good it is at pulling every germ. Every dirty little frag.
Every bacterial bevvy.
Loving it all
to its silky death. to its silty bottom. to its graywater demise.
How it hungers the virus until neither function. Melting its thick
heart and ripping it all away.
Little soap bar playa. Little Dionysian pump of cupidity.
Oh, to desire virus
to death. To take it dizzy
and broken down through the falls.
Slow soaping the sick
from our living,
wet hands.
*****
āLittle Dionysian pump of cupidityā
In Lady āļøās necessary room!
MJ
“Ummm, Snow is referring to Sammy Sams. Her polite little name jab at him. What are you, living under a rock? š”
THAT IS MY (AFFECTIONATE) NICKNAME FOR HIM! Where you been, under a rock?
[āI think Iām a little meaner.ā]
“You can say that again. š”
You love it. š
“”If you must know, in High School a girl once told me she thought I looked like Garry Shandling.. Whatever the hell she was on I donāt know, but I never saw it.. In my 20s I was told I look like a Arnold Schwarzenegger. Which I guess take or leave that as a compliment, but I donāt know. Most recently a Friend told me I remind him of Jason Segal from āHow I met your Mother.ā”
I’ve never liked Arnold Schwarzenegger. I like Gary Shandling and Jason Segal. Gary Shandling was talented. I love the “The Larry Sanders Show.” It’s brilliant.
“Youāre just saying that because weāre middle aged Dudes with younger LOs..”
No. I was thinking you were the kids in the class who were making interruptive jokes and shooting spit wads and so you had to be disciplined. š
“I still donāt know what the problem with that is. I mean the Woman is a freaking Goddess to like the 500th power and beyond. She deserves adoration and I will give it to her!! ”
And I don’t understand why you don’t understand it. It’s so damn obvious. Why do I have to explain this to you? You NEVER write this way about a woman your age. It’s like you’ve tossed us aside for a younger version because we aren’t hot enough anymore. Do you know what that feels like? What if I rambled on about 28-year-old man? He’s in great shape, great hair, can go all night, his refractory period is about 2 minutes …
“Just because I tear up now and then doesnāt mean I want to clean up in your necessary room.”
You’ll do it and you’ll enjoy doing it. End of discussion. š I have a little costume for you to put on, too. š
Snow,
[āMJ will do it! šā
Heāll do it, and heāll like it! š]
“Iāll make sure there is a pot of hot coffee always on the stoveā¦”
No! He doesn’t get any coffee. He hasn’t done the job yet! And then when he does, we have to inspect the work. I will not allow sloppiness. And something tells me that he’s sloppy. He’s probably going to inadvertently break a few things in your house, too. š
“DrLās words, ālike Phoenix š¦āš„, rising!ā
āageā and ādeathā do NOT exist on the Silver Moon! Only rebirth, rebirth, and REBIRTH š¦āš„!”
I like that. š
āWhere is LaR? Heās not going to be in the Naughty room, heās going to be in Solitary. šā
“LaR š š½ ran away from your lineup him with MJ šŖ£ š¦ and Adam š© š„ against the Wall, and hide in the recovery room with Mila š„ š š· , trying to distinguish their respective LO and SO, as ”
Mila’s not in there. Just the guys. š
“PPF āPure Platonic Friend
MFF ā Mentally Fondled Friend
LFF ā Limerent Flavored Friend
LFO ā Limerent- Flavored Lover
LSOā Limerent Flavored SO
BSO ā Background SO”
You and these acronyms! š
“By the way, I like Lizzie in 1980 version series (more intellectual and vulnerable) , Mr. Darcy looks more aristocratic and snobbish for the first half, but unconvincingly warm or affectionate on the 2nd half.”
I think I’ve seen bits and pieces of this. Not the whole thing. I don’t like aristocratic and tight. I don’t like that affect.
“The above message is to Lady Marcia ā my INFP Sister! š¦āš„ š¦āš„
Together, we can take any INFJ š„ lineups š„”
Together, we’ll rule the site!
LaR,
“So how long is the solitary sentence Iāve been condemned to, ābeyond the naughty roomā, Ladies Marcia and Snow?”
You have to get back on the straight and narrow. Don’t start conversations and not finish them. š
Lady MarcIa,
“You have to get back on the straight and narrow. Donāt start conversations and not finish them. š”
I have been using my time in solitary wisely. I’m wading through ‘an elementary guide to grammar, clarity and brevity’ š.
On the conversation that also involved Mila, I heard what you and Snow were saying (I said thanks). I abandoned that hare-brained socialisation idea. Our brains don’t cope well with sustained 30 degree heat here.
I’ll reply on the other coffeehouse later. I talked myself into thinking that you might have had enough of that thread, but I apologise if I was wrong about that.
MJ š¦ šŖ£ š¦,
āTHAT IS MY (AFFECTIONATE) NICKNAME FOR HIM! Where you been, under a rock?
I questioned it, I guessed it, I knew it! ā you pocket-picked from Dame Marciaās gallery for distinguished, affectionate human and other sentient-beings names! Shame on youāļø shame on you, MJ š šŖ£ š āļø š
You NEED your own unique name for your beloved grandpa, all the way to the galaxy and back!
Now, I also canāt keep a pot of coffee on the stove for you, Lady Marcia is on a closer watch on your duty for Miss Snow and your repentance for her Ladyship. š š«
āYouāll do it and youāll enjoy doing it. End of discussion. š I have a little costume for you to put on, too. šā
My Sisterās command is my delight, MJ šŖ£ š¦! I canāt wait to see your costume š š¤ŖāļøWhat time tomorrow evening?
Lady Marcia,
āNo! He doesnāt get any coffee. He hasnāt done the job yet! And then when he does, we have to inspect the work. I will not allow sloppiness. And something tells me that heās sloppy. ā
Okay, my Sisā wish is my command, Iāll keep an eye on his hands and my fragrant soap bars so he wonāt eat them.
āHeās probably going to inadvertently break a few things in your house, too. šā
Most of my things are cotton, silk or feather made, so he could hardly break them. But I will certainly lock away a dozen jade-carved emoji/name-tags for his grumpy Grandpa so he canāt pocket-pick anyā¦
āMilaās not in there. Just the guys. šā
Taking a pity on Sir LaR who once upon time gallantly dueled a Wittgensteinās Humpty ā š„, and waved his sword at your ladyship, I smuggled Mila š„ š š· into the Solitary room in a hot dusk to just debate with him on their shared MFF/LFF/LSO dilemmas šµāš« šµāš« ā¦. Sheās out there now but pondering over some scattered texts to her out-of-sight MFF/LFFā¦.
[Together, we can take any INFJ š„ lineups š„ā
Together, weāll rule the site!]
š! Thatās the eternally rising š„ power of š¦āš„& āļø š¦āš„ without any flaky LO ā¼ļø
LaR,
“I have been using my time in solitary wisely. Iām wading through āan elementary guide to grammar, clarity and brevityā š.”
Has enough time passed for you to do that? š
” I abandoned that hare-brained socialisation idea. ”
Good. š
“Iāll reply on the other coffeehouse later. I talked myself into thinking that you might have had enough of that thread, but I apologise if I was wrong about that.”
I was really referring to that coffeehouse. No, I’m hyper verbal/super communicative. I don’t get tired of threads. š
āMilaās not in thereā
Huh?
Where am I not in there? I want to be in there, if you are! Marcia doesnāt like meššš
āSheās out there now but pondering over some scattered texts to her out-of-sight MFF/LFFā¦.ā
Snow, would you stop wishing me to be limerent?
Iām not pondering, only maybe my need for a holiday. My social battery/work battery is somewhat empty, but there are still a few weeks to get throughā¦
The girls in my high school class did not like the Mr. Darcy in the 1980 version, lol. And it was weird the way they did the reading of the Letter, just cuts from him walking to Lizzie emoting with different eye movements. š
š„ š š·,
I was/am not wishing you still in LE, did you see that in MFF and LFF, the letter āOā does not exist, but āFā ā friend/friendship. There are 4 Fs two sets! āLā stands for Last LE, after all we all had LE, did we? Maybe I need to extend the ātrinity ruleā so you have your LLFF ā Last Limerent Flavored Friend?
Lady Marcia has a couple of private rooms šŖ šŖ šŖ reserved exclusively for her dudes or socially inept ladies ā Naughty Room, Solitary Room, Dungeon room, Banished room, etc. No good girls are supposed to be there, unless one socially behaved inadequatelyā¦ You donāt fit her criteria!
I sneaked you into Solitary šŖ to accompany the lonely Sir LaR for a bit, who was thinking about holding his SO on his right arm, and LFF in his left hand, simultaneously and harmoniouslyā¦.
š¦ š ,
I watched 1980 version when I was still in COO, and could never forget such an unforgettable arrogant, uptight countenance!
But I think Lizzie looked very intelligent, not as feminine or sweet as the one in 1995 version.
I donāt like the movie version, too short, and I agree with Marcia that Mr. Darcy is a wet noodle! For movie adoptions of any famous books, I prefer their BBC mini series. I want to see characters development and cinematic details.
I like watching BBC series, too. I recently saw an old BBC version of Anna Karenina after reading the book, and the 70s version of Jane Eyre with Timothy Dalton is my favorite. š
Mila
[āMilaās not in thereā]
“Huh?
Where am I not in there? I want to be in there, if you are! Marcia doesnāt like meššš”
Oh, no, it’s not that I don’t like you. I do. But I don’t trust you. I don’t want you anywhere near my dudes. I could see you doing things like, “Oops, I dropped my pencil.” š
Miss Snow,
“Lady Marcia has a couple of private rooms šŖ šŖ šŖ reserved exclusively for her dudes or socially inept ladies ā Naughty Room, Solitary Room, Dungeon room, Banished room, etc. No good girls are supposed to be there, unless one socially behaved inadequatelyā¦ You donāt fit her criteria!”
No, no. No ladies. I’m not working with the ladies. It’s every girl for herself here. š
“I sneaked you into Solitary šŖ to accompany the lonely Sir LaR for a bit, who was thinking about holding his SO on his right arm, and LFF in his left hand, simultaneously and harmoniouslyā¦.”
Now, we all know that ain’t gonna be harmonious. š
Miss Snow,
“My Sisterās command is my delight, MJ šŖ£ š¦! I canāt wait to see your costume š š¤ŖāļøWhat time tomorrow evening?”
He’s going to complain it’s a little drafty, but he’ll get used to it. š
“Okay, my Sisā wish is my command, Iāll keep an eye on his hands and my fragrant soap bars so he wonāt eat them.”
I would just lock up any underwear your have ’cause that boy is a perv. š
No pencils, pens, or paper clips ā 3Ps, are not inside LwL wallsā¦
There, thereā¦
š š š!
No pencils, pens, or paper clips ā 3Ps, are allowed inside LwL wallsā¦
There, thereā¦ š« š¦āš„ Sis!
š š š!
Dame Marcia,
āI would just lock up any underwear you have ācause that boy is a perv. šā
You mean I have to lock those flossy underwear in my only safe that is already filled with patented name/emoji tagsā Then next time when I address some of those distinguished š» š» , wouldnāt I get some crotches thrown at meāš«¢š
Lady Marcia,
[Sir LaR for a bit, who was thinking about holding his SO on his right arm, and LFF in his left hand, simultaneously and harmoniouslyā¦.ā
Now, we all know that aināt gonna be harmonious. š]
If the harmony can be made in this case, then it could be worse ā this singleton LO could be mesmerized by our dazzling socialite, Sir LaR š, and held up by his gallant LFF, thus possibly unable to move away for her own potential LO/SOā¦ š§
Will you call that a true friendshipā
Miss Snow,
“No pencils, pens, or paper clips ā 3Ps, are not inside LwL wallsā¦”
It’s not just pencils. She’ll have other Machiavellian schemes. š
“You mean I have to lock those flossy underwear in my only safe that is already filled with patented name/emoji tagsā Then next time when I address some of those distinguished š» š» , wouldnāt I get some crotches thrown at meā”
You mean he’d throw your underwear at you? He may wear them on his head. I could see him doing that. š
“If the harmony can be made in this case, then it could be worse ā this singleton LO could be mesmerized by our dazzling socialite, Sir LaR š, and held up by his gallant LFF, thus possibly unable to move away for her own potential LO/SOā¦ š§ … Will you call that a true friendshipā”
You’re preaching to the choir. I don’t think people can be friends with their LOs.
Lady Marcia,
āItās not just pencils. Sheāll have other Machiavellian schemes. šā
True, Machiavellian schemes are keeping evolving and renewing at wifi speed! š
āYou mean heād throw your underwear at you? He may wear them on his head. I could see him doing that. šā
Itās better than throwing crutches at meā¦ š«¦
āWear them on his headāāThen will I become a poor Indian woman wearing skirts with nothing underneath š³ ā
āYouāre preaching to the choir. I donāt think people can be friends with their LOs.ā
I finally got your point, Lady Marciaā¼ļø š«
How about after their LEās totally goneāDo you think us Limerents want to or can befriend xLOā
Lady Snow,
“True, Machiavellian schemes are keeping evolving and renewing at wifi speed! š”
Especially with limerents. š
“āWear them on his headāāThen will I become a poor Indian woman wearing skirts with nothing underneath š³ ”
He’d probably just take a pair or two. He won’t raid your underwear drawer completely.
“How about after their LEās totally goneāDo you think us Limerents want to or can befriend xLOā”
I’m leaning toward no. If you tell a limerent they can see their LO again after the limerence dies down, what will they do? Just wait until that day. They won’t do the inner work to tackle the limerence. There’s something about the finality of NC. It’s a mental shift.
Hey āļø!
“No pencils, pens, or paper clips ā 3Ps, are allowed inside LwL wallsā¦”
I wish to put in a complaint to management about the stationery ban.
To be fair, Mila and I need some pencils and a paper clip, purely to keep on top of the piles of notes we have to make about your latest acronyms to classify an (x)LO. We’re getting pretty baffled in here!
Trucker,
“To be fair, Mila and I need some pencils and a paper clip,”
As we explained, Trucker … Miss Snow and I are running a penitentiary for MALE limerents.
You CANNOT put female and male limerents in the same penitentiary. You’re just asking for trouble.
I don’t know who runs the female limerent penitentiary. Maybe L.E.? He seems like a good choice. He likes to correct people. š C’mon that was funny. š He’s the only male poster on here who’s not limerent and who has been through limerence enough to have acquired some common sense. š
Marcia,
Oh I am fully down with what you’re saying … that I and the other male limerents need *corrective action*, not the encouragement of tantalising females hanging around.
BUT – you really need to ask Miss Snow about this security breach, not me. She was fully aware of what happened, and party to the events. I think she felt that Mila and I could talk sense into each other š
And I think you just praised L.E. I want that moment up on a big screen at the Limmys.
Lady Marcia,
Sir LaR š and Mila š„ š š· just had one-night stand in the penitentiary, no EA attached. No worries, no worriesā¦. š
Sir LaR š,
Did you work out with š„ š š· your shared MFF/LFF/LSO concernsāI canāt smuggle her in again, now that the whole LwL is watchingā¦š
Fact check:
Itās one-dusk stand, NOT one-night stand! Both Sir š and Lady š„ š š· have a SO, respectively, and itās impossible for them to have a whole-night stand anywhere in the LwL galaxy!š
They both like to bring their MFF/LFF to lavishly dine with their SO, respectivelyā¦
Sheesh it’s getting lively here, right?
Mila,
Ich habe keine Ahnung was Fraulein Schnau meint! Sie is vielleicht ein bisschen heiss im vierzig gradš”
Look, Mila and Sir LaR just had a jolly lovely chat. How scandalous of Lady āļø to imply anything else!!
I never knew a š to get so much šØšØšØ. It’s a good job it is a high quality John Deere š, really.
How to keep providing the š½š½š½ to the LwL village if the š stays in solitary? I’m going to deserve a spa retreat after this. Come on ladies, have some pity or I might ššŖ£ soon.
š š± š½,
āYou CANNOT put female and male limerents in the same penitentiary. Youāre just asking for trouble.ā (Marcia)
Thatās my Ladyshipās concern, which is logical regarding us reckless limerentsā¦š¤
Iām not implying anything between you and š„ š š· ā¦ But once staying alone to chat in a locked cell with walls but without any Humpty š„ sitting on the top šļø , anything is possible between two limerents, with or without SOā¦ š§
Iām in the disciplinary room now, sorry canāt help you In your cellā¦ š¶
“You CANNOT put female and male limerents in the same penitentiary. Youāre just asking for trouble.”
I agree. Some of us *looks in the mirror* can’t even handle the mixture here in a free space much less in lockup.
Now if you will excuse me, I need to figure out how to ferment wine in this prison I’ve been unjustly thrown in.
Gosh, whatās going on here??š I only skimmed posts, but got your pencil theme, Marcia;) youāve got amazing memory!
Have I had a one night stand with LaR?? Or dinner with his SO? Or his LO? Or both with my XLO? All sounds interesting to me, but am unfortunately swamped in work and cannot really join inā¦
Mila,
Marcia has put me in solitary confinement. Snow sneaked you in so we could keep each other company and figure out some 3 letter combinations that rightly apply to our (x)LOs and our SOs.
How much of that punch did you drink that you can’t remember what happened next?! Honestly!
And what is the joke about pencils? I tried to play along, but I’m clueless.
LaR,
ā some 3 letter combinations that rightly apply to our (x)LOs and our SOs.ā
As long as I donāt have to invent Emojis for them..
āpunchā
Iām all for Aperol Spritz these hot days.
āPencil ā
Back in limerent days I remember Marcia cracks me up with a comment along the lines āitās all well and good, but then your LO will drop a pencil and bend to get it, and off you go againā. Thatās completely not what she wrote of course, but maybe she can supply you with the correct phrasing.
Isnāt that actually something out of āLegally blondeā? Marcia recently proved to be an unexpected source of Romcom wisdom, thatās why I want to be in the same room with her, please. Also because of the huge sledgehammer made of chocolate.
Mila,
“your LO will drop a pencil and bend to get it, and off you go again”
š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£
šš„ Oh please stop already and fetch me some š§š§š§ right now. I’m supposed to be doing solitary. However did āļø smuggle you in here?
š, š„ š š·, š š« ,
Milaās memory is a bit off after last dusk āchattingā with Sir LaR, it went like this:
A āLimerent drops a pencil in front of LO, so LO bends to get it, and off you go againā! š lady Marcia has another gallery of limerentsā Machiavellian skills! If you have new ones, please donate to her collectionā¦
How did Lady Snow smuggle Mila into the LwLās side Wing? Thatās the top state secret! š¤«
Sir Adam š© š„,
āNow if you will excuse me, I need to figure out how to ferment wine in this prison Iāve been unjustly thrown inā
Itās justly, because youāve limerented for a much younger LO. If your LO is as same age or older than Dame Marcia, youād be sitting on the LwL Wall siping your favorite ferment š·!
“Now if you will excuse me, I need to figure out how to ferment wine in this prison Iāve been unjustly thrown in.”
Adam
I feel your pain Brother. I’m in the same boat. Now they think I’m the freakin Janitor around here and want me to clean up in their bathroom. Plus they have a costume for me picked out already. Talk about humiliating.. š
I can help you ferment that wine. I’ve been there. Then perhaps you and I can share it while we ruminate, wallow and intoxicate ourselves talking about our fantastic younger LOs.. Sounds like a good time to me.. šš
Solidarity
š¤š»š¤š»
“THAT IS MY (AFFECTIONATE) NICKNAME FOR HIM! Where you been, under a rock?”
Marcia, Snow
Simply-put, I’m hijacking the nickname and will use it when I feel necessary. This is part of the terms of agreement we have in place, based on you forcing me to clean bathrooms. The agreement is final and non-negotiable. As a Union Man, I am all about following agreements made in full faith and good intent. Please see to it that you read the agreement along with the by-laws voted upon here by the membership. Thank you and have a great day.. š
“No. I was thinking you were the kids in the class who were making interruptive jokes and shooting spit wads and so you had to be disciplined.”
That wasn’t me. I was the kid who, when the girl that was crushing on me in 3rd grade went to go sit down, I pulled the chair out from under her and she landed on her ass. Naturally moving her to tears and me getting my nose put in the corner..
Is it any wonder today I am divorced, miserable, lonely and limerent?? Our God is a God of vengeance and retribution..
Believe that.. šš»
“What if I rambled on about 28-year-old man? Heās in great shape, great hair, can go all night, his refractory period is about 2 minutes ā¦”
I’d say kudos to you and congratulations. At least you found what works for you and gives you pleasure..
Look, like a lot of men, it’s just a preference for me. That’s all. You keep being offended like I don’t give Women “your” age a chance. But the fact is I do. I just haven’t met one lately. Until that happens, I’ll levitate toward just about anyone that says hi to me and/or then looks at me for maybe more than 2 seconds. Like all I need is a pulse at this point. No current Women “your” age are currently fulfilling the role, so if she’s younger and looking for an older Dude, then so be it. I’m more than available..
“Youāll do it and youāll enjoy doing it. End of discussion. š I have a little costume for you to put on, too. š”
Now you’re into Cosplay. I should have seen this one coming.. You Freak.. š
“No! He doesnāt get any coffee. He hasnāt done the job yet! And then when he does, we have to inspect the work. I will not allow sloppiness. And something tells me that heās sloppy.”
Ok Joan..
I can see almost as clear as day how this is going to go..
As I cry my little eyes out.. šš¦šŖ£
https://youtu.be/YUV-Nwqs3BU?si=yMl6Kx18o4OZwNHg
Btw, I prefer my coffee iced this time of year. Make sure there is plenty of it.. š
Miss Snow
Fine, fine. I’ll take my punishment. But I learn better from corporal punishment from a woman than being grounded. (Opps there goes those mommy issues.)
Brother
That sounds like a good time. With no else around we can listen to Rose Pink Cadillac as much as we want. She ain’t the first and won’t be the last woman I drink over.
Which makes me wonder if I was born a gay celibate …. would I still be an alcoholic? A question only Sammy can answer. š
š¦ šŖ£ š¦,
āSimply-put, Iām hijacking the nickname and will use it when I feel necessary. ā
Okay. letās see which nicknames for your Grandpa you can hijack from āļøš¦āš„ās collection and use it in FITTING occasionsā¼ļø š
š© š„ ,
Wanna a corporeal punishment from a handless and footless šµļøš±š āā š Youāre drinking high againā¦ how about some š„«š§ ā
I don’t know where to put this, but I would be overjoyed to be considered “kinda hot.”
Just putting that out there.
“How did Lady Snow smuggle Mila into the LwLās side Wing? Thatās the top state secret! š¤«”
I don’t need to know why. Please just leave her here for another 24 hours. Dame Marcia is showing no will to š me. So in the mean time I am having fun with š„šš·’s āļøāļøāļø.
ND,
About ‘kinda hot’ …
Adam is giving you all the hints he can. (Come on š©š„, you may need to be more obvious).
Stop denying that you don’t know what to do in the ‘naughty room’ and keep that man happy!
š šæ ,
Iām in Lady Marciaās disciplinary room now for having smuggled š„ š š· into your cell in the last dusk.
Meanwhile, you can figure out how to chivalrously drop those āļø āļø āļø in front of your LFF , so she will bend for youā¦ š¤
Soon, Lady Marcia and I would sit in my lawnš” šø š šæ š š¦ šŖ£ š¦ splashyšŗšæ in my powder roomā¦
āLife is Beautifulā! š
Miss Norma
You arenāt at all ākindaā you just are. You are the Helen Mirin of LwL. What
man wouldnāt want to take out for a night on the town? Present company excluded.
This conversation is getting hot. My a$$ is gonna get lit when the Queen Dame gets here. I can feel it getting warm already..
“That sounds like a good time. With no else around we can listen to Rose Pink Cadillac as much as we want. She aināt the first and wonāt be the last woman I drink over.”
Holy crap I totally forgot about Rose Pink Cadillac. Of course we have to listen to it. I know it by heart and sing it to LOs picture all the time. She loves it..
You and I can croon it together to our very respective and most beautiful LOs.
You bring the Guiness and I’ll bring the Bass Ale. Together we’ll make Black and Tans. Celebrate perfection. You know, the best of both Worlds. Like your LO and my LO..
Bottoms Up.. š»š»
“Okay. letās see which nicknames for your Grandpa you can hijack from āļøš¦āš„ās collection and use it in FITTING occasionsā¼ļø”
Snow,
Your posts are lengthy and wordy, so thats going to take me some time. I’m also not going to get in between the polite little tiff between the two of you. Just because it’s coming up on Independence Day here in the states, doesn’t mean we need fireworks here in the forum.. š
BTW, how did you come up with him being my Grandfather anyway?? He’s like in his early 40s and I’m 54.. Is it because of the fine wisdom he bestows on some of us??
š¦ šŖ£ š¦,
āYour posts are lengthy and wordy, so thats going to take me some time.ā
š£ Sorry about my ESL, Iāve š£ admitted that Iām āverboseā due to a NSā English reservoir! š¤
āIām also not going to get in between the polite little tiff between the two of you. ā
Ha, I knew šŖ£ š¦ did not dare to splash around your Grandpaās patented nicknames ā¦š
āJust because itās coming up on Independence Day here in the states, doesnāt mean we need fireworks here in the forum.. šā
Totally agree with you, I love fš§Ø š (invented by us COO), but NOT here! š¤
āBTW, how did you come up with him being my Grandfather anyway?? ā
He talked in his recline chair with endless *coughā¦.cough*š«£
āHeās like in his early 40s and Iām 54.. Is it because of the fine wisdom he bestows on some of us??ā
He sounded like 95 yrs to you with āthe fine wisdomā. But āļø š¦āš„ was 286 on the Earthā¦ Go figure, š¦ šŖ£ š¦ with a š¼ Lš ¾ļø ā¼ļø
āA āLimerent drops a pencil in front of LO, so LO bends to get it, and off you go againā! ā
Could also be possible! Canāt remember who drops the pencil. LaR and me take turns to drop it, but itās always him to pick it up, because heās such a gentleman. Soon we have to transfer him to the physiotherapy room.
[āTHAT IS MY (AFFECTIONATE) NICKNAME FOR HIM! Where you been, under a rock?ā]
Why do you always put a quote above your posts, like a headline? š
MJ,
“Simply-put, Iām hijacking the nickname and will use it when I feel necessary.”
You can use it. I just want credit for it.
“This is part of the terms of agreement we have in place, based on you forcing me to clean bathrooms. The agreement is final and non-negotiable. As a Union Man, I am all about following agreements made in full faith and good intent. Please see to it that you read the agreement along with the by-laws voted upon here by the membership. Thank you and have a great day.. š”
We have no such agreement in place. And you’re a private contractor. Not part of a union. You’re on your own. š
“That wasnāt me. I was the kid who, when the girl that was crushing on me in 3rd grade went to go sit down, I pulled the chair out from under her and she landed on her ass. Naturally moving her to tears and me getting my nose put in the corner..”
Why would you do that?
“Is it any wonder today I am divorced, miserable, lonely and limerent?? Our God is a God of vengeance and retribution..”
I think you have to change the narrative you have about yourself. This is very negative.
“Look, like a lot of men, itās just a preference for me.”
Ok. I mean … this is also painfully self-evident … You might want it, but does it want you? (I’m mean that for all older men.) And if it does … I could see having a good time. Something short term. But long term … do you want to start all over again with kids? Because a young woman would probably want that. And the age difference might not be that big of a deal now, but it sure as heck will be a big deal as you both age. You’re already in different stages of life; they will get more pronounced as you get older. You have to be realistic.
“Like all I need is a pulse at this point. ”
We have to work on your standards. š
“No current Women āyourā age are currently fulfilling the role”
Women “OUR” age know better. š
“Now youāre into Cosplay. I should have seen this one coming.. You Freak.. š”
No, I’m not into that.
“Ok Joan…https://youtu.be/YUV-Nwqs3BU?si=yMl6Kx18o4OZwNHg”
I really disliked that movie.
“Btw, I prefer my coffee iced this time of year. Make sure there is plenty of it.. š”
You’re an employee. You get coffee for me. Also, hold the chatter when you get it. š
I seem to have lost track of my responsibilities.
Can someone please help? Something to do with pencils and fermenting wine?
I try to keep up my end of things, but I fear I have blundered badly.
Hello everyone –
I discovered the term limerence about two months ago and felt both relief and horror that there was a term for exactly what I’ve struggled with, multiple times in my life. I’m knee deep in it again, and it feels unbearable and I need help.
I’m married, and the relationship with my LO began 12 years ago, with just one date whilst we were both single. He has kept in touch with me over the 12 years since, either with a birthday text just once per year, or with more aggressive (I’d love to meet up for a drink) type of messaging. This is someone that I had a FABULOUS first date with, but could never get him to go on a second one. However, I had no shortage of men looking to date me at the time, so although it was quite painful, I moved on. Although, I must admit, the fact that he kept in touch with me for over a decade made me feel like, “Is he really the ONE?!”
He reached out on my birthday in 2022 and I was in a terrible place the time. My husband and I weren’t getting along well, and I was grieving the loss of a close friend. We started communicating regularly via text and he was saying all the right things; “Now that I have you back in my life, I’ll never let you go!” and that letting me go the first time was one of his biggest regrets.
I won’t bore you, but fast forward three years and it’s been pretty much non stop. I did eventually see him and we began a PA. I expressed my love for him very early on, and he expressed it back…but he isn’t asking for me to leave my husband and to be with him. I actually get the feeling that he is relieved that I’m married…he’s >50 years old, never been married, never had kids…never even lived with another woman.
I’ve broken it off many times through the years and gone no contact…only to have the pain be so unbearable that I reach out again and we profess our love for each other. Please help me! I downloaded the emergency deprogramming course, and when I’m paying attention to it, I do better. But then he reaches out and I always go back to square one. When I get a message my whole nervous system relaxes and a breathe a sign of actual relief. In the meantime, I’m anxious and just waiting for the next message or encounter. I don’t want to live my life this way. It has stolen my attention away from my family and friends, my work…everything. All for a man who isn’t even asking to be his life partner. I do love my husband; I truly do. I don’t want to be stuck on LO anymore! I wish he could be erased from my brain.
Wow Steffie, thatās really tough. There are great organizations that help people recover from affairs. You might want to contact Affair Recovery or Marriage Helper.
Can I be brutally honest? I suspect that your LO likes being with a married woman and that he doesnāt want you all to himself. I think he just wants the physical excitement without commitment responsibilities. That kind of man isnāt appealing in my opinion.
Best wishes!
Thank you for your reply. Yes, I would agree that the kind of man who avoids commitment isn’t appealing, either…but you don’t discover that initially; they certainly don’t lead with it! And this is about overcoming my limerence, not the affair, per se. I will continue to look for resources in this community, but I appreciate the other outlets you mentioned!
Hi Steffie, sorry to read you are struggling.
You know by now your LO’s ‘modus operandi’. He has you on tap for excitement, validation etc and you seem to be available when he decides to contact you.
If he really loved you, wouldn’t he seek your partnership or allow you to be happy by letting you go, to be with your SO and family ? And how many other women is he playing at the same time ?
I’m sure you already asked these questions.
It seems from your message that he has never been an authentic friend, so I guess he is lover or nothing.
If you decide nothing, because you truly love your husband and you commit to be monogamous, then you have to stick with No contact and consider it as empowerment to take control and reclaim yourself and build inner strength.
Dr L has many previous blogs on No Contact with good inputs from LWL community.
Its tough. I know.
Steffi, also to add ‘Following Fenna’ on YouTube may be helpful as she is straight talking and by coincidence I see her latest video listed just today is
‘Why Most Affairs Feel Like Love, But Never Last’
I will check that out! Thank you so much!
Holy hell, I’ve been devouring her content. She’s spot on! Thank you for this recommendation.
Thank you for this, Imho! LO has become what feels like a friend, as he reaches out to see how my day is going, stays involved in my life events, etc. as my other friends do. It’s not all physical. In fact, there have been times over the past year where I’ve made it clear that is what I wanted, and he encouraged us to just enjoy each other’s presence. I guess that is what leads to such confusion and me not being able to write him off as a “bad guy”. He genuinely seems to care about me and value my friendship, first and foremost.
However, you are absolutely right that if he wanted what’s truly best for me, he’d ask me to commit NOW, or let me move on with my life. He wants his cake and to eat it too, clearly. And I’m sure he’s dating other women…which makes me feel terrible, of course. I don’t want to lose his friendship, but I guess I need to get comfortable with that…and I cannot allow him to be the one to make the right choice; clearly he won’t and he admits to being selfish.
Thank you for your reply. It means more than I can express.
One more thing…no contact feels so impossible. Longest I’ve gone is two weeks! I pray I can find the strength, somehow.
Steffie,
Well done for coming on here and telling your story. It’s a great step! Have you read “Smitten”? That is also useful. Keep on coming here, keep on reading the stuff, and arm yourself with the knowledge and understanding about what’s going on in your brain. Then you’ll be able to figure out answers, navigate a way out of this episode and find freedom.
Good advice Monochrome.
ultimately one has to find a way through it after accessing as much information as possible/ needed.
I have not read Smitten yet ( Don’t tell DrL).
Steffie, You are probably stronger than you think, to do the things you need to do šŖš»
A limerent is as clueless about being an LO as an LO is about being a limerent. Being on the receiving end of endless attention, favors, special treatment and adoration, I imagine, is quite nice. Maybe as addicting for the LO as it is for the limerent to hand it out.
When I first came here two and half years ago, any kind of mention that she was manipulative, narcissistic, or otherwise anything but perfect I met with defense of her. Now I am not so sure I should have defended her so vehemently. She is an imperfect human that was getting showered with unbridled adulation. I’m sure she enjoyed it. Much like I enjoy going to social functions that have an open bar. š Free stuff is awesome.
Hi Adam,
“A limerent is as clueless about being an LO as an LO is about being a limerent”
I agree, until it happens both ways. You gain the knowledge of this thing called limerence to then identify you are /have been on the receiving end of it too as an LO.
Retrospectively, I can identify that I was an LO to someone ( I only gained this knowledge from being on here at LwL as a limerent myself)
I would not have known otherwise.
I do think some people intuitively just know a person is infatuated with them without needing to know the term limerence.
Of course, many enjoy it and play with it like a game, without realising they are actually breaking our hearts.
“I do think some people intuitively just know a person is infatuated with them without needing to know the term limerence.”
IMHO
Yes, if the whole office claimed I had a “crush” on her, I am sure she was aware of it too. But the intensity is the difference. The LO may realize the limerent “likes” them. But they have no idea what it feels like in the limerent’s head. Just like the limerent may think he’s just being “nice” to LO and has no idea how aware LO is that he is showering her with adulation.
Short story; I was talking to a co-worker who invited my wife and I to her and her husband’s 10 year vow renewal next month. She was telling me about how her cousin has become obsessed with our boss and was reading some posts of her’s online, while our boss was in the office with us. They were obsessive and possessive and in my head I was thinking “sounds like limerence to me” but what I said out loud was “Uh oh boss sounds like you are someone’s [insert LO’s name].” And everyone had a laugh and agreed. We limerents aren’t as discreet as we might think lol
Adam, IMHO, and Monochrome – thank you!
I agree that LO doesn’t realize what limerence is. He, in fact, says that we just love each other with different levels of intensity. Although I guess this really isn’t love at all…it’s me being married to someone I DO love, so I can certainly tell the difference. But I am completely obsessed with LO and it certainly FEELS like love, but it lacks security and commitment and all of the building blocks of real love.
LO seems to be pulling away, so I’m praying he keeps doing so and stays away. Now his texts are only once or twice per week, where for the past few years they have been daily. It’s difficult for this not to make me feel even MORE limerent, so I’m praying I’ll just eventually be okay without hearing from him at all. Gosh, this is torture. I’m taking Dr. L’s emergency deprogramming course and it is very helpful. But I have to stick with it.
Ugh, it seems like I am always coming here to whine.
I just had a false-alarm “sighting” of LO’s car in the Starbuck’s parking lot. I thought it was his, but it turned out to be a different make.
Even though it wasn’t LO, I came completely unglued.
Currently looking for some adhesive.
Dear Norma
Absolutely text book standard, in my opinion. Absolutely not down playing your experience, more trying to reassure you that itās normal how even a false sighting can completely throw you. I was the same until recently – if I saw a black Jaguar – even pass me in the road miles from work – my heart sank as my brain had assumed it was her.
Youāre still clearly very vulnerable, but thatās ok. Look at it like this: your defences are still high and this will prevent you from lowering your guard, thus heightening your protection. I hope that makes sense.
You are doing very well Norma. Keep going and keep reporting back.
Much care
Jmmo
To JMMO:
Thank you so much for the reassurance. LO drives a navy Mercedes sedan, which is easily confused with many other cars, including black ones. I thought his car was black for the longest time because he always parks in the shade.
With such a common shape and color, I have done a double-take more times than I would like to admit.
Jmmo,
Somehow the black jag just seems to fit all the other cliches you have said about her …
Keep doin what you’re doin!
LaR
Yes, itās occurred to me too.
Thanks mate
hi @Jmmo and @LaR
just saying a quick hello from the weird labyrinth of my rehab. helllooooooo gentlemennnnn….(echoes reveberate…) :))
I am sorry to combine the inquiry — normally I would write two separate posts, I try not to combine…because everyone deserves their own message! But i haven’t been on for a while, because I am knee deep in work, and trying to make up some of the time I missed while in the blackest depths of my LE (otherwise known as spending half a year sobbing and shaking on my couch, instead of running my business. ahem.)
Things are ok here…I still get sad. But, I still know I have done the right thing. I am actually working on a creative project…and that also feels really good. I cannot believe I actually feel a resurgence of creativity, right now.
I hope you will see this….I think of you daily and wonder what’s up. I noticed there’s a lot of posting going on, and some new post-ers…and I believe I have missed some of your posts. I wish there was a better way to stay updated….but, it seems catch-as-catch-can if I am lucky enough to see either of you in the comments area on the sidebar here…
oh dear, look at me, using some capital letters….my goodness. Maybe I have been getting better! Is that a sign???
Anyway – sorry to piggyback on Norma’s thread, but I saw you were both active, here.
Big Hugs From Rehabland…
csc
HI CSC,
GOOD GOSH CAPITALS!!
I am glad to hear (and see) these really promising signs and that you seem to have had an increase in energy and productivity š
I need to refocus myself a bit on the rehab just to keep everything balanced š … it’s not an excuse but there is just so much exposure that I can’t avoid. Good news – it really still isn’t triggering me like it used to. Bad news – it still is a bit (as I put it to āļø earlier, last year was vindaloo, this year masa). My mind has to run overtime to maintain balance. It might just be like this to some extent as long as we work together (no change imminent to that, but it won’t be forever, particularly if I become more proactive).
I replied to your š¢ message, and I know JM has a post he really really wanted you to see, as he was ‘bumping’ it over the weekend amidst the rest of our chaotic rambling.
If you reply here and say you’re ‘around’ today, I’ll put a link below it later so you can see those messages easily.
All the best for now x
Hi @Norma….
That, my darling, is called “Being Triggered”.
You are not unglued. It’s normal… Totally.
If it helps, my xlo used to wear a certain style of pants. Quite lovely. They are a kind of wide stovepipe style that is very popular with young men right now…
Well, my home is full of young men who wear this pants style.
And I am triggered each time I see them. The silhouette alone was enough to make me need to cry, for a time. Left me flooded with chemicals….
I have false alarms all the time, too. It’s normal. Nothing to do with you being crazy, everything to do with your brain’s established patterns…
I actually had another LO who had a green shirt. I was triggered by this color green, and it seemed every young man I saw had a similar shirt. haha – so this time, I knew what to expect, and what was happening with the Pants.
with care,
csc
To CSC:
Thank you for telling me those stories. It’s really helpful. I can brace myself, at least, for whatever the next weird occurrence may be.
I need to start a new post, because the urge to contact LO is overwhelming.
I am hanging in there so far, but I need someone to talk me down off the ledge.
If you fall off the ledge it is going to hurt. For all those adrenaline junkies that enjoy skydiving and the such is because they don’t hit the ground. They enjoy the high without the pain (ideally).
If you do contact him, then what? Is that going to make seeking the next high even easier (or harder depending on your pov)? To then you are back full blown in LE? Take it from someone whose present co-workers feel the need to tell me every little thing in her life that they hear or see online. It sucks and I’m not even soliciting such information. It makes continuing NC sometimes more difficult. Though it has been getting easier. It still sparks the LE a bit to say “just one text or one call won’t hurt anything”. Or “you’re just looking at her FB you aren’t posting”. Thankfully I haven’t fallen down the rabbit hole.
To Adam:
Thank you for helping me to stay out of the rabbit hole.
Hi Adam –
How long have you been no contact? I feel like even if I could deal with no contact, I’d still check social media obsessively.
I hadn’t heard from LO for about 3 days and once he texted, and it wasn’t even flirting…I went right back into my LE. Can think of little else at all. It’s awful.
Norma Desmond – remember you are worthy and you are fabulous and you don’t need short term validation of a reply from LO to make you feel good. Find something decadent to do to for yourself instead. Reclaim yourself from those feelings. They are just brain chemicals. You can do this.
To Monochrome:
The sad thing is, I don’t even know if I WOULD get short-term validation from LO. He has a mercurial personality. Thank you for helping me to stay strong.
ND,
Speaking of ledges…
https://despair.com/cdn/shop/products/regretdemotivator.jpeg?v=1403276109
I love this site!
To L.E.:
Excellent! That made me laugh out loud!
I need to start a new post about “Pride & Prejudice.” I am reminded of something from the movie. In the movie, Mr. Collins is played by Tom Hollander. Tom Hollander also recently played Truman Capote in an excellent mini-series called “Feud: Capote Versus The Swans.” LO and I both watched it and loved it.
The Truman Capote story is set in the 1960s and 1970s, but it some ways, it’s very much like “Pride & Prejudice,” with the strong emphasis on manners and doing things the “right” way. There was one sequence where Truman and one of his friends, played by Naomi Watts, are discussing the proper card stock for party invitations.
I brought this up with LO and said, why does this stuff matter so much?? LO insisted that it DID matter, and I realized that I absolutely do not understand any of it. These are the kind of people who would call 911/999 if somebody used the wrong fork at dinner.
Yeah, I donāt understand it, either. I grew up working class with farming relatives. Watching/reading Jane Austen is a totally different world!
To Serial Limerent:
LO almost looks as if he could live in the 1800s and fit in pretty well.
He has lots of antiques, and his house could pass for being from another century.
I have no patience for all that fussiness.
Okay, I finished the mini-series. I appreciate the recommendation.
I definitely see some similarities between LO and Mr. Darcy.
LO is taller and thinner than Colin Firth; probably doesn’t look as good in a wet shirt.
Norma Desmond,
“Mr. Collins is played by Tom Hollander. Tom Hollander also recently played Truman Capote in an excellent mini-series called āFeud: Capote Versus The Swans.ā LO and I both watched it and loved it.”
Well, I think the Mr. Collins in the series is better. But I really liked Feud. Have you read the story Capote wrote about the Swans? “La Cote Basque.” I found it online. I’m a Capote fan. I find him fascinating and I loved “In Cold Blood.” But the story is … unnecessarily graphic, and I don’t mind graphic, but there was no reason to write that. It’s just a bunch of trashy gossip. The writing wasn’t up to his standards. I can see why his friends felt betrayed.
To Marcia:
The problem was that he was alcoholic and suffering from writer’s block. He couldn’t seem to write anything else. Presumably he got traumatized from writing “In Cold Blood,” which increased his writer’s block and his alcoholism.
I have been to La Cote Basque, and I did recognize the murals in the dining room. Obviously we didn’t get the good seats like the Swans, but I was very well pleased. One of the best dinners of my life. The restaurant has since closed. LO is into all that fancy stuff. I remember last Christmas, he was annoyed that his family wasn’t having place-cards at the dinner table. I just rolled my eyes. How are you supposed to have a fancy dinner with a bunch of young kids?? His sister-in-law has the right idea. Everybody serve themselves from a buffet and sit wherever. With eleven young kids present, that’s the only thing that makes sense.
LO would rather be designing party invitations with Babe Paley.
Tom Hollander also played Quentin in the second season of “The White Lotus,” which is another excellent show.
Norma Desmond,
“The problem was that he was alcoholic and suffering from writerās block. He couldnāt seem to write anything else.”
I think that’s exactly what happened.
“Presumably he got traumatized from writing āIn Cold Blood””
Did you see the movie “Capote”? It goes into detail about the writing of the book. It’s very good. Philip Seymour Hoffman as Capote was terrific.
“I have been to La Cote Basque, and I did recognize the murals in the dining room. Obviously we didnāt get the good seats like the Swans, but I was very well pleased. One of the best dinners of my life. The restaurant has since closed. ”
Did it look like the restaurant in the series? What did you eat there?
“Tom Hollander also played Quentin in the second season of āThe White Lotus,ā which is another excellent show.”
I did. I’ve seen all three seasons.
To Marcia:
I had roast duckling and it was fabulous. I can’t remember what my ex-husband had. As best as I can remember, it looked the same. It was in the 1980s, and my strongest memory is of the murals. I don’t actually remember that big dining room. We sat in a side room at one of those banquette tables, which I actually prefer. Feels cozier.
Yes, I saw “Capote” and also “Infamous.” I actually like Toby Jones’ portrayal of Capote better than Hoffman’s. Toby Jones has the advantage of having a closer resemblance to the character. Capote’s torment over his relationship with Perry Smith is even more evident in that movie. Mark Ruffalo was supposed to play Perry Smith but there were scheduling problems. They ended up with Daniel Craig, who doesn’t seem right for the part but he pulled it off.
Norma Desmond,
“I had roast duckling and it was fabulous. I canāt remember what my ex-husband had. ”
That does sound good. I love roast duck.
“I actually like Toby Jonesā portrayal of Capote better than Hoffmanās.”
I did see that version and I like Toby Jones as an actor but I think Seymour was better and the movie he was in was better. Plus, Chris Cooper was in it. He’s always good.
“They ended up with Daniel Craig, who doesnāt seem right for the part but he pulled it off.”
I didn’t remember he was in that. One side of Perry Smith’s family was Native American. Daniel Craig is completely wrong for the part. “Capote” got it better, at least physically. It also really showed well how Capote probably fell in love with him but was also using him. But that was Capote. He was an opportunist.
To Marcia:
That’s why Mark Ruffalo looked the part better. Plus, the character was fairly short. I thought Chris Cooper and Catherine Keener were better in their parts in “Capote” than Jeff Daniels and Sandra Bullock in “Infamous.”
They gave Daniel Craig brown contact lenses and managed to conceal his height. He got the accent right. Guess that’s why they’re called “actors.”
If you liked “The White Lotus,” please consider giving “Succession” another try. It’s similar in that almost all of the characters are deplorable and fun to hate.
Matthew MacFadyen plays an insecure American from the Midwest, I think maybe North Dakota (?), who is completely out of his element, surrounded by the ruthless, wealthy Roy family, which is modeled after the real-life Murdoch family. Watching him adapt is one of the delights of the show.
Norma D,
“I thought Chris Cooper and Catherine Keener were better in their parts in āCapoteā than Jeff Daniels and Sandra Bullock in āInfamous.ā”
I thought so, too.
“They gave Daniel Craig brown contact lenses and managed to conceal his height. He got the accent right. Guess thatās why theyāre called āactors.ā”
Perry Smith was a short man. I think he had some kind of leg issue. The actor in Captoe just seemed more vulnerable to me. Smith had really a rough life. He was lost.
“If you liked āThe White Lotus,ā please consider giving āSuccessionā another try. Itās similar in that almost all of the characters are deplorable and fun to hate.”
Ok. I will give it another shot.
To Marcia:
That was Clifton Collins playing Perry Smith in “Capote.” He also appeared in “Westworld.”
It’s fine. It will keep my mind off Mr. Darcy.
When they give out those Limmy Awards, I think I need to be on the list for Whiniest Poster. Just a thought for the Nominating Committee.
I dreamed about LO last night. It was so vivid. He was helping me get an apartment in Santa Monica. I didn’t even want an apartment, and I didn’t want to live in Santa Monica. But the apartment was so fabulous, I couldn’t resist.
He was so kind and accommodating. When I woke up, I thought it was real.
Perhaps I was influenced by binge-watching “Pride & Prejudice.” In real life, LO is the epitome of the crabby-jerk Mr. Darcy, without the redeeming qualities.
Or perhaps he DOES have the redeeming qualities but they are not available to me.
ND,
“When they give out those Limmy Awards, I think I need to be on the list for Whiniest Poster. Just a thought for the Nominating Committee.”
You’re a Most Likely to Bring Everything Back to Your LO nominee. You may have a big competition for that award. š
Norma,
You have my confirmed vote for āBring Everything Back To My LO ā BEBTMOā award! š„
āļøš,
It’s a solid vote for Norma to get š„ in that category.
If we are looking at the year as a whole, I hope you might consider me for a š„ in the category?
I don’t want to hog the gold medal. I am thrilled just to be nominated.
Please donāt shy away from the golden š„on BEBTMO, you have Sir LaR standing next to youā¦
Adam and MJ are competing to stand on your right sideā¦
Norma,
It’s OK, I promise. Please just give me a little sip out of your bottle of Dom Perignon š¾ for the toasts and I promise I’ll be a happy runner up.
I also think you should be nominated for the most creative story about an LE, for ‘limerent for a house’!
To LaR:
I don’t drink, so you can have all of my champagne. I don’t care about winning, I am just delighted to be here.
I still think I AM limerent for the house, except that Dr. Tom says that’s not a thing.
Norma,
I think it’s about what the house stands for … And that you’re secretly quite decadent!
To LaR:
Perhaps I am secretly quite decadent. I am hoping to become acquainted with the new owner. I am curious as to how they will decorate, because the way the house is decorated contributes to the overall vibe.
Of course, it’s the gardens and the fountains that are my favorite, and I presume that those won’t change much.
I secretly fear that the new owner will tear everything down and build multiple smaller houses.
I once asked LO how he felt about that. And he said he would feel terrible, but ultimately, the money wins out.
š š± š½,
You certainly deserve to get š„ on Bring Everything Back to My LO ā BEBTMO, category!
After a year of Stoic/Buddhistic apprenticeship in LwL, in obtaining: indifference/patience, non-reaction/compassion, observation/acceptance , I need to see an ENT doctor to have my š šprofessionally unjammedā¦. š ā¼ļø
Even if you had a house like that, it would end up not being like that, because you don’t care sufficiently about which fork to use. It’s an impossible fantasy house.
To Monochrome:
It IS an impossible fantasy house, and I would not want to live there. It’s overwhelming.
I have found that, after two hours at LO’s house, I feel an overpowering need to leave. It’s over-stimulating. As much as I love it, I can only take it in small doses.
ND – I want to visit it! But not live there.
Marcia,
[Yeah, but I was talking about that āonly person in the crowded roomā effect]
“Is that what happened when you met your SO?”
Yes, definitely. I went to great lengths to get her attention and turned down someone else when the start of the relationship with SO was slow-burn.
“For example, when LO-lite emailed me ā¦ I should have let it alone. I knew something was off. Why is this guy emailing my personal email at home? But I didnāt want to let it alone. I kept the emails going. Limerence is a selfish thing.”
Agree completely. You knew something was off but you acted anyway.
“Itās actually fairly easily to squelch it.”
I disagree here. The above bit that you said about your reaction to LO-lite is exactly why it is hard to squelch. We know it is wrong but the nature of limerence is that we often act anyway.
ā Iām a little drama. Maybe you didnāt notice. š He has, but in the meantime I was convinced it was over and having a complete spiral. š”
The perils of a lim-brain (I speak from experience). How goes that situation now?
“If I were to guess ā¦ youāve always played the role. The Good Son, the Good Friend, The Good Boyfriend, The Responsible Employee. And thereās a part of you thatās tired of the role, and these LOs tap into a part of you that goes beyond the role .”
Yep, dead accurate. And those roles can get tiring sometimes.
“Iām not sure what youāre not getting. š”
I get it now š
“Just have it make frigging sense!š”
š
“At the end of the day, ask yourself, āWhat is really happening here? If this was a movie or a book, would you walk out to the theater or throw the book across the room?”
I know, I know. I am far from the only one here at LwL who can’t seem to take this advice. It could be a Limmy category of its own. ‘Worst plot’.
LaR
“Yes, definitely. I went to great lengths to get her attention and turned down someone else when the start of the relationship with SO was slow-burn.”
Oh, that’s cool. Some posts read to me like the SO was a compromise.
What do you mean slow burn?
“Agree completely. You knew something was off but you acted anyway.”
Yeah. I also know he wasn’t single. So there’s your answer.
“The above bit that you said about your reaction to LO-lite is exactly why it is hard to squelch. We know it is wrong but the nature of limerence is that we often act anyway.”
I’m sorry. That’s horsesh*t. That makes it sound like everyone who’s in an affair couldn’t help themselves. I have free will. Limerence (or something similar, whatever it was) did not give me a lobotomy. I knew what I was doing. I wanted what I wanted.
“The perils of a lim-brain (I speak from experience). How goes that situation now?”
We have plans to meet up again. Of course, when he says he already has plays on a certain night, my first thought is always: With another woman? (I don’t ask, of course.) And I don’t get on the dating site until very late at night/very early morning (12 a.m. or so). I don’t want to find him on there. He’s not doing anything wrong, but it would bother me.
“Yep, dead accurate. And those roles can get tiring sometimes.”
Ok. I got another one. This one’s a dozy. Does your SO want you to play those roles but your LO doesn’t?
“I know, I know. I am far from the only one here at LwL who canāt seem to take this advice. It could be a Limmy category of its own. āWorst plotā.”
Not “worst plot.” NO plot! If it was a movie, people would be shouting at the screen! “Do something! Make a move!”
Marcia,
“What do you mean slow burn?”
We went on a first date but took a while to have a second. I had to work and persist a bit to win her around.
“Oh, thatās cool. Some posts read to me like the SO was a compromise.”
I know my limerence for someone else does not read like the ideal advert for my relationship with SO. But no, I don’t compromise for spells this long, and buy and set up a home with the person etc. as a compromise.
“Yeah. I also know he wasnāt single. So thereās your answer.”
People in these situations often act selfishly. Look, does this next point help us understand each other any better? I know and admit my selfishness for being in an LE for this long. Sometimes I have just stayed there just because I like it there – not thinking unselfishly about my SO.
But here’s what I can’t understand about your various points at different times. I can feel the vibe in some of your messages to me that you think I’m being unfair (maybe even immoral) to SO. And what’s more, I accept that point. It’s fair. But – you have acted at times (made out, also wanted emotions reciprocated) with married or partnered men. So how come you were prepared to be part of their straying, if you feel morally that straying is so wrong (as evidenced by what you’ve said on cases like mine and other limerents here’?). Or, is it just that it annoys you if the limerent won’t admit they are being selfish? If it helps at all, I admit it.
I don’t want to seem hostile or like I want an argument in asking any of that. I have a solitary room that I really want out of now š . I just want to understand how the bits of your logic (when applied to other partnered men, compared to me or others on LwL) fit together.
“Iām sorry. Thatās horsesh*t. That makes it sound like everyone whoās in an affair couldnāt help themselves. I have free will.”
I didn’t mean to imply that people don’t have free will. I meant that the draw of the LO is so strong for the limerent that they choose not to let go (this is not just true of me but so many people here). And that that’s why, even though it might be *theoretically* easy to squelch an LE, *in practice* not many LEs get squelched quickly. But I’m not trying to deny that the limerent and the LO have free choices.
“We have plans to meet up again. Of course, when he says he already has plays on a certain night, my first thought is always: With another woman? … Heās not doing anything wrong, but it would bother me.”
It’s natural to wonder that. I don’t know if I’d use those sites today if I was single. It seems brutal – like a competition.
“Ok. I got another one. This oneās a dozy. Does your SO want you to play those roles but your LO doesnāt?”
I mean, the short answer is yes, as you already know too well.
I have been very clear on LwL before that one of my LO’s most appealing qualities is her sense of spontaneity and that my SO is less of a spontaneous person. Definitely at the point my LE started, this was a massive factor. LO has given me the space to let out some suppressed sides of me.
But, I’d also want you to keep these two points in mind;
1. It is not a ‘fair competition’, is it? With one of them I just go and have fun larks. With the other, I am in a live-in relationship. So only one of them has to put up with all my moodswings, dirty socks and morning hair. I most likely could not put up with those sides of LO full time, and she probably couldn’t of me.
2. I see it less as “LO vs SO” and more that LO has helped me let out stuff that’s been suppressed across my adult life, not only recently or by SO. I’ve told you enough of my history for you to get that.
Can I be let out of solitary now?
Mr. LaR,
“We went on a first date but took a while to have a second. I had to work and persist a bit to win her around.”
Speak more on that. What did you have to do? So if a guy is really into a woman … she doesn’t have to do much, right?
“Sometimes I have just stayed there just because I like it there ”
And that’s just it. We stay there because we want to!
“I can feel the vibe in some of your messages to me that you think Iām being unfair (maybe even immoral) to SO. And whatās more, I accept that point. Itās fair. But ā you have acted at times (made out, also wanted emotions reciprocated) with married or partnered men. So how come you were prepared to be part of their straying, if you feel morally that straying is so wrong (as evidenced by what youāve said on cases like mine and other limerents hereā?). Or, is it just that it annoys you if the limerent wonāt admit they are being selfish? If it helps at all, I admit it.”
Fair question. This will be a bit long-winded. You mentioned you wanted my logic. I don’t know there is logic! (I’m not offended by the question.) So let’s just take LO-lite. How often does someone light you up? And how often does that person feel the same (at least attraction-wise)? Do you have any idea the odds the Universe has to line up for that happen? Do you think he’ll be available, too? At my age? Would you have passed up the opportunity if your LO disclosed her attraction to you? Do you have any idea how long I’d been waiting to hear that? But … was it morally wrong? Of course. And in retrospect, aside from the morality, I don’t think I’m capable of having a fun-only situation with someone I’m that into. Probably wasn’t the best decision.
In terms of you “right up to the line” types š …. what bothers me is that you think you’re not doing anything. Or much of anything. “But, but, but, I’m not physically cheating.” “But, but, but … it’s all in my head. I’m not hurting anyone.” But you have a partner. You have strong feelings for someone else. You don’t need to know what limerence is to know you feel strongly. And you go right towards those feelings instead of avoiding the LO. Maybe you develop a friendship, start texting, start heavily flirting, start sexting, staring hanging out, having an EA. Why is that so different than what I’ve done? Personally, if I’m the partner, I ‘d think … go ahead and hook up with the LO. You’ve done everything else.
“Itās natural to wonder that. I donāt know if Iād use those sites today if I was single. It seems brutal ā like a competition.”
That’s exactly what it is. He’s fallen off with communication in the last couple of days. Maybe he’s gotten distracted by all the other women. But I have no control over that. So there’s nothing I can do.
“1. It is not a āfair competitionā, is it? With one of them I just go and have fun larks. With the other, I am in a live-in relationship. So only one of them has to put up with all my moodswings, dirty socks and morning hair. I most likely could not put up with those sides of LO full time, and she probably couldnāt of me.”
Exactly. Are the people who “unlock” or “unsuppress” us the very ones we couldn’t be with full time?
“Can I be let out of solitary now?”
I would need to discuss that with my Co-Matron, Miss Snow. I don’t want to get your hopes up, but maybe you could be moved to the Naughty Room with MJ and Adam. Mila keeps pretending she has reading comprehension problems. She keeps acting as if she’s in solitary with you, despite me making it clear male and female limerents are NOT in the same facility. š
[āWe went on a first date but took a while to have a second. I had to work and persist a bit to win her around.ā
Speak more on that. What did you have to do?]
It’s nothing spectacular, just frequent texting to show I was thinking about her, chit chat etc. The time period fell across Christmas and I text her a fair bit on Christmas day. Just made it obvious I was interested. I wasn’t sure she wanted a second date but after a while of this chat she invited me for dinner.
[āSometimes I have just stayed there just because I like it there ā
And thatās just it. We stay there because we want to!]
Yep, I think that’s the bottom line. And I fully get why you say, when on the outside, that it reads as the novel with no plot.
“You mentioned you wanted my logic. I donāt know there is logic!”
I think there is, but it is limerent logic …
“How often does someone light you up? And how often does that person feel the same (at least attraction-wise)? Do you have any idea the odds the Universe has to line up for that happen? Do you think heāll be available, too? At my age?”
Indeed. Those things don’t line up often. Often I’ve had five year intervals or more between it.
“Would you have passed up the opportunity if your LO disclosed her attraction to you?”
That’s a killer question. I’m glad I’ve never been faced with that. I have never physically cheated on any SO. But hypothetically if I was faced with turning this LO down, it would have been one of the toughest things I’d ever had to do. I think a disclosure from her, timed ‘perfectly’ (about 12-18 months ago) would really have shaken up my life. I just don’t know. I once turned down a very direct proposition from my strongest-ever LO when she came on a ‘circle back’, because I was with someone else by that time.
“I donāt think Iām capable of having a fun-only situation with someone Iām that into”
That’s true of me too. And that’s one reason why I never explored ‘fun only situations’ with any LOs. But the morality aspect, and how that would make me feel, is a stronger reason.
“In terms of you āright up to the lineā types š ā¦. what bothers me is that you think youāre not doing anything. Or much of anything.”
I wouldn’t say that’s true. I’ve known I’m doing something not good. The guilt I feel is more about SO. Snow tells me I should also feel it towards LO. A difficulty is that LO is an ‘encourager’ – not of anything physical, but of everything else. Whenever I try pull away, she pulls me back. I (have to) see her most every day at work, so it is not one of those where I can kind of just take different routes through the corridors at my workplace.
“And you go right towards those feelings instead of avoiding the LO.”
And your point above about how rarely ‘stuff lines up’ explains perfectly why this happens.
“Maybe you develop a friendship, start texting, start heavily flirting, start sexting, staring hanging out, having an EA. Why is that so different than what Iāve done”
I haven’t done every one of those things. But as a more general point – I don’t think it is that different from what you’ve done. In the past I’ve only said that *my SO* would see a physical betrayal as worse, not that it’s my view. But stuff like sexting (which I haven’t done), SO would count up there in badness with a PA.
“Personally, if Iām the partner, I ād think ā¦ go ahead and hook up with the LO. Youāve done everything else.”
It’s fair. You’ve got the right to feel that way. If SO had ever made that comment to me, I wouldn’t have felt I had a massive case for the defence.
“Maybe heās gotten distracted by all the other women. But I have no control over that. So thereās nothing I can do.”
Are you tempted to just ask him a direct question ‘Wanna meet again? When?’. As that should resolve it one way or other.
“Exactly. Are the people who āunlockā or āunsuppressā us the very ones we couldnāt be with full time?”
I don’t know. Have you had any more positive examples of that? What I do know is we’re only showing our shiny side to LOs. When I peek past that and see what my LO-type would be like ‘full time’, I’m really not sure!
Easier to just buy a moped maybe š
“I would need to discuss that with my Co-Matron, Miss Snow.”
I hope Miss Snow is listening sympathetically.
“Mila keeps pretending she has reading comprehension problems. She keeps acting as if sheās in solitary with you”
Well if it isn’t Mila, who is the woman who keeps chivalrously picking up pencils for me?
Sir š© š ,
āA difficulty is that LO is an āencouragerā ā not of anything physical, but of everything else. Whenever I try pull away, she pulls me back.ā
There, there! ā this line tells me that sheās in limerence with you, Sir LaR; otherwise, she would not āencourageā. You must have leaked a mountain of your LE emotions, and sheās detected and loves itāļø
If itās true, letās say 50-60%, what are you going to do now for her sakeāā a question for your Solitary šāļø
Whatās the most seductive weapon in LwLāā
āA pencil, a pencil, my kingdom for a pencil!ā ā Lady Marciaā¼ļø
LaR, (Dungeon Master)
“Itās nothing spectacular, just frequent texting to show I was thinking about her, chit chat etc. The time period fell across Christmas and I text her a fair bit on Christmas day. Just made it obvious I was interested. I wasnāt sure she wanted a second date but after a while of this chat she invited me for dinner.”
Did you text every day? So he and I already have set plans to meet up. They’re upcoming (soon), but he was texting and that’s fallen off. And I’m not comfortable initiating a conversation at this point. I don’t want to chase this guy.
“Indeed. Those things donāt line up often. Often Iāve had five year intervals or more between it.”
That’s what it was for me, too. Five years before LO-lite. And he didn’t just say, “I’m attracted to you.” There was more to it. If I have a “sexual” language (as opposed to a love language) … well, what he said, it was as if I’d written the lines myself. I couldn’t have asked for better.
“I think a disclosure from her, timed āperfectlyā (about 12-18 months ago) would really have shaken up my life. I just donāt know. I once turned down a very direct proposition from my strongest-ever LO when she came on a ācircle backā, because I was with someone else by that time.”
And how hard was that to turn down?
Now, I realize this is going to sound hypocritical … but should we be putting ourselves in positions where someone feels comfortable enough to disclose? No! We’re CREATING drama.
“Thatās true of me too. And thatās one reason why I never explored āfun only situationsā with any LOs.”
Well, maybe they wouldn’t have been. I don’t think all affairs are “fun only.” I’m sure some are, but not all.
“I wouldnāt say thatās true. Iāve known Iām doing something not good. The guilt I feel is more about SO. Snow tells me I should also feel it towards LO. A difficulty is that LO is an āencouragerā”
So was my LO. Even after saying no to doing more physically. But I still eventually walked. š (Took me a long time, but I did it.)
“Whenever I try pull away, she pulls me back. I (have to) see her most every day at work, so it is not one of those where I can kind of just take different routes through the corridors at my workplace.”
You can still limit the friendship to work matters. And you know that. š
“And your point above about how rarely āstuff lines upā explains perfectly why this happens.”
But it hasn’t lined up. Lined up means they feel the same and there’s been some kind of discussion about it. (And better yet, some action on it.) You don’t know how she feels. Both my LO and LO-lite disclosed. (LO more so a vague feelings disclosure, but it was enough that I knew what he meant.)
“I havenāt done every one of those things. But as a more general point ā I donāt think it is that different from what youāve done. ”
You don’t have to do all of them, and you know it. š They were just examples. My point is … you (the general “limerent you”) have an SO and you willingly and knowingly walked toward strong feelings for someone else and acted on them on some level. And it’s gone on… for what? … months? Years?
“Are you tempted to just ask him a direct question āWanna meet again? When?ā. As that should resolve it one way or other.”
As I wrote, we do have plans. Doesn’t mean he’s not cruising for other women. I’ve caught him on the site. Well, “caught” isn’t the right word, as I’ve been on there, too. But I’m not excited by any of the options. I’m running out of steam with this online stuff. I don’t really like it.
“Have you had any more positive examples of that?”
No! š I’m probably the wrong person to ask. I’m all riled up by the very wrongness of someone.
“When I peek past that and see what my LO-type would be like āfull timeā, Iām really not sure!”
But that’s the problem. Because with limerence, you aren’t filtering for “will they be a good partner” or “will they be a good parent.” Certainly not initially. It’s: “Do they light me up?” It’s pure. It’s unadulterated. When you consider the other things, something has to give. Nobody gets everything.
“I hope Miss Snow is listening sympathetically.”
The decision has been rendered.
“Well if it isnāt Mila, who is the woman who keeps chivalrously picking up pencils for me?”
You’re a limerent. You’re dreaming s**t up. š
Marcia
“Did you text every day?”
Don’t think it was every day but I remember that when we did text, it went on for hours.
“And Iām not comfortable initiating a conversation at this point. I donāt want to chase this guy.”
More than 50% of me wants to say “that’s wise”. The other bit is the bit that doesn’t have a clue how online dating works today.
“There was more to it. If I have a āsexualā language (as opposed to a love language) ā¦ well, what he said, it was as if Iād written the lines myself. I couldnāt have asked for better.”
Oh gawd when they know how to do stuff like that, it is powerful, right?
[āI once turned down a very direct proposition from my strongest-ever LO when she came on a ācircle backā, because I was with someone else by that time.ā
And how hard was that to turn down?]
Agonising. Truly agonising. To this day I feel regret that I turned that down.
[āthatās one reason why I never explored āfun only situationsā with any LOs.ā
Well, maybe they wouldnāt have been. I donāt think all affairs are āfun only.ā Iām sure some are, but not all.]
You’re right. I think about it a lot in advance (my T and J traits) which is why I don’t ever let it happen.
[āLO is an āencouragerāā
So was my LO. Even after saying no to doing more physically. But I still eventually walked. š (Took me a long time, but I did it.)]
Well done. How long?
I might find the strength to walk one day.
“You can still limit the friendship to work matters. And you know that. š”
Trickier than it looks on paper, but yeah.
“But it hasnāt lined up. Lined up means they feel the same and thereās been some kind of discussion”
Fair enough. It’s true that I am working only off intuition. Snow seems pretty convinced that my LO reciprocates, based on various seeds I’ve scattered around the LwL farm at different times.
“You donāt have to do all of them, and you know it. š”
It amuses me when you bang me to rights with that phrase š. Goes well with the current penititiary theme.
“And itās gone onā¦ for what? ā¦ months? Years?”
I start to lose count š
“Iām running out of steam with this online stuff. I donāt really like it.”
I can’t say I blame you.
I’m losing track of what has been said in LwL vs the rest of my life, but am pretty confident this bit was in the ‘rest of my life’ … someone told me recently that ‘living with my mum’ is online dating code for ‘living with my wife’. Just watch out for it.
“Iām all riled up by the very wrongness of someone.”
I REALLY get that.
[āI hope Miss Snow is listening sympathetically.ā
The decision has been rendered.]
I believe Governess āļø will soften with Sir š eventually, when she needs some šæ.
[āWell if it isnāt Mila, who is the woman who keeps chivalrously picking up pencils for me?ā
Youāre a limerent. Youāre dreaming s**t up. š]
She WAS here. I have the pencils and the memories to prove it.
Dame Marcia & Sir š© š ,
[āCan I be let out of solitary now?ā
I would need to discuss that with my Co-Matron, Miss Snow. I donāt want to get your hopes up, but maybe you could be moved to the Naughty Room with MJ and Adam.]
I donāt think Sir LaR should be moved to Naughty room or get out Solitary room, not yet! Here are my reasons ā
1. He has three āļø āļø āļø smuggled by Mila š„ š š·, and would distribute one each to MJ šŖ£ š¦ and Adam š© šŗ. They two would use it naughtily to trick their baby LO š
2. You are concerned for Sir LaRās SO, I worry about his LFF.
A. They were good friends for a decade before his LE, so itās extremely difficulty or āwrongā to charge him (and Mila) āimmoralā because good friendship is held more honorable than flimsy romantic/LE affection, by me and many others in the West.
B. Milaās MFFās own safe family could sit down to friendly and leisurely dine with her own steady family, regardless whatās going on in Milaās head or his stubborn, loyal MFFās head, or in their chitchat phones. No one in that dynamic is going to fall off the earth.
C. Sir LaRās LFF is single (slightly younger than him) and presumably still in her reproductive age. Now if sheās not limerent for him, sheād pursue/find her own romance and naturally distance from his gallant ādanglingā. But if, just if, she is also in well-hidden LE with him, then sheās āstuckā in the inexpressible, unspeakable dance. He has SO at home waiting; she āhas an empty house to return night after night.ā ā Call me Cordelia.
One can argue (š did šØ šØ š¦ ) that his LFF has will and freedom to walk away anytime, and sheās responsible for her own choice. But as experienced by your ladyship, once in LE, itās extremely difficult to pull away despite all reasonings ā āHow often does someone light you up? And how often does that person feel the same (at least attraction-wise)? ā
D. LaR is also LFFās friend for a decade, even before he met his SO. Thus, she might have a hard time to āabandonā such a long friendship tie. She could possibly be āenjoyingā the duel connections in the dynamic and willingly āsacrificeā her own future romances. If thatās the case, LaR only needs to concern about his SO, as your ladyship rightly points out.
E. The most challenging part is that LaR does not know for sure where LFF stands, and he canāt ask or push her away without disclosure. Unlike your LO-lite, he doesnāt want to and will not cross the boundary of disclosure (declare an emotional/mental stray from his SO). I worry that heās POSSIBLY stands in/blocks LFFās way to her own future romance/relationship.
Again, without knowing LFFās stand and without a disclosure, what LaR should doāā
Personally, I think he needs to pull away from LFF, until she finds her own LO/SO. Then if two sides still want, they could rekindle their old friendship, maybe together with their respective SO. (LaR mentioned that his SO knows of LFF)
He needs to stay in Solitary to mull over longer, more for his LFFās sake, if he claims heās a good friend to herāļøš
Co-Matron Snow,
“They two would use it naughtily to trick their baby LO š”
She can’t. She’s not there with him. She’s in another facility! I keep saying that! š Because limerents are always “putting out the feelers ” for new potential situations, all of you — ALL OF YOU! — have dreamed up co-ed scenarios! š
“2. You are concerned for Sir LaRās SO, I worry about his LFF.”
I have concern for her. I just have more concern for the SO as she is kind of in the dark. The LO is more aware of what’s going on in the friendship. As much as one can be without disclosure.
“C. Sir LaRās LFF is single (slightly younger than him) and presumably still in her reproductive age. Now if sheās not limerent for him, sheād pursue/find her own romance and naturally distance from his gallant ādanglingā. But if, just if, she is also in well-hidden LE with him, then sheās āstuckā in the inexpressible, unspeakable dance. He has SO at home waiting; she āhas an empty house to return night after night.ā ā Call me Cordelia.”
I don’t necessarily agree with this. She could be in some kind of emotional place where she doesn’t want to go out looking for a partner, and LaR is meeting her “male companionship” needs. Now, that in itself could be in part preventing her from looking for a partner.
“One can argue (š did šØ šØ š¦ ) that his LFF has will and freedom to walk away anytime, and sheās responsible for her own choice. But as experienced by your ladyship, once in LE, itās extremely difficult to pull away despite all reasonings ”
Yes, that is true, but it’s not impossible.
“D. LaR is also LFFās friend for a decade, even before he met his SO. Thus, she might have a hard time to āabandonā such a long friendship tie. She could possibly be āenjoyingā the duel connections in the dynamic and willingly āsacrificeā her own future romances. If thatās the case, LaR only needs to concern about his SO, as your ladyship rightly points out.”
I like how you call me “your ladyship.” š If only the other knuckleheads on here would do the same! (I’m kidding.) I agree with what you wrote here.
“E. The most challenging part is that LaR does not know for sure where LFF stands, and he canāt ask or push her away without disclosure. Unlike your LO-lite, he doesnāt want to and will not cross the boundary of disclosure (declare an emotional/mental stray from his SO). I worry that heās POSSIBLY stands in/blocks LFFās way to her own future romance/relationship.”
It could, yes.
“Again, without knowing LFFās stand and without a disclosure, what LaR should doāā”
I’ve already given him my opinion. He should pull away from the friendship. But no limerent ever wants to do that.
“Personally, I think he needs to pull away from LFF, until she finds her own LO/SO. Then if two sides still want, they could rekindle their old friendship, maybe together with their respective SO.”
Yes, but we don’t know if she’s looking or even wants to .
” (LaR mentioned that his SO knows of LFF)”
She knows OF his LFF. But she doesn’t know the details.
“He needs to stay in Solitary to mull over longer, more for his LFFās sake, if he claims heās a good friend to herāļøš”
I will honor your ladyship’s decision. As respect for your Stoic and no-longer-longing practices. š
There’s the decision, LaR. Now quite your gripping. You still have cable and internet and a vast library of books to read. You’re not in some dungeon. š
Your ladyship,
As much as I value you and Snow’s thoughts, and will continue to take them on board and listen in good spirit, you are right on the money with this point:
“She could be in some kind of emotional place where she doesnāt want to go out looking for a partner, and LaR is meeting her āmale companionshipā needs”
This is right on the mark. And I’ve hinted to you before why it is. I don’t want it all laid out here in this public space. It is not my tale to tell. But what you inferred before, from my hint, about why she’s not chasing was accurate. It isn’t because of me.
I will try again at pulling away from her more. But that’s going to be more for the sake of my SO and I, than because I believe I have LO trapped in some web she doesn’t want to be in. I would never do that. And she is a very feisty and independent-minded individual who literally will NEVER do stuff she’s not OK with. I see this literally every day.
“Youāre not in some dungeon. š”
That’s a shame, because I think I might have fun there. Adam and MJ certainly seem to be. But Mila WAS here. Maybe not with approval of the head governess, but she was.
ā But Mila WAS here.ā
Of course I was. Iāve even written that on the wall (without the ābutā) with the one pencil that didnāt have a broken tip.
Lady Marcia,
āShe canāt. Sheās not there with him. Sheās in another facility! I keep saying that! š
No worries, your Ladyship. Mila š„ š š· is in another facility under š©āš¦° šās supervision. She was only on this side wing for a dusk with Sir LaR (my fault) but slipped him three āļø āļø āļø ā the most precious, sought weapon in LwL!
āBecause limerents are always āputting out the feelers ā for new potential situations, all of you ā ALL OF YOU! ā have dreamed up co-ed scenarios! šā
I canāt agree with you more on this! Hide š in LwL sanctuary, limerents are ever ready to put on LE scenarios at every corner.
āI will honor your ladyshipās decision. As respect for your Stoic and no-longer-longing practices. šā
Thank you for your encouragement on my Stoic practices. But Longing is gone, I canāt get IT back even if I wish. In its old place, only laughters š š š leftā¦
Sir LaR š,
āYouāre not in some dungeon. šā
Thatās a shame, because I think I might have fun there. Adam and MJ certainly seem to be.
Under my watch, you can š dreaming to sneak the extra āļø āļø to MJ šŖ£ š¦ and Adam š© š„! Otherwise, once out of jail š², theyād use āļø āļø to seduce innocent š„ š„ š„ !
Dungeon Master,
“This is right on the mark. And Iāve hinted to you before why it is. I donāt want it all laid out here in this public space. It is not my tale to tell. But what you inferred before, from my hint, about why sheās not chasing was accurate. It isnāt because of me.”
But you do you know that for sure? You know she’s not chasing you, specifically (as opposed to all men in general) because of what I referred to in that other post? (You’re loving this, aren’t you? All this indirectness. :))
I’m going to be honest. I had a male friend, a work friend, but still someone I talked to quite a bit and quite personally. He was married and at some point came onto me. Very clearly. And I said no and gave his being married as the reason. It was in part the reason, but it was mainly I wasn’t interested enough to do it.
“Thatās a shame, because I think I might have fun there. Adam and MJ certainly seem to be. ”
Yeah, they’re playing video games all day long. š
“But Mila WAS here. Maybe not with approval of the head governess, but she was.”
She wasn’t. The place is like Alcatraz. Ladyship Snow grew up in a communist regime. She knows how to operate the crack down. š
I know you all are in cahoots to mess with our Ladyships heads. But our Ladyships (Snow and I, respectively) aren’t falling for it. We’re Lionel Richie, honey. We can do this all night long. š
Snow and LaR,
“No worries, your Ladyship. Mila š„ š š· is in another facility under š©āš¦° šās supervision. She was only on this side wing for a dusk with Sir LaR (my fault) but slipped him three āļø āļø āļø ā the most precious, sought weapon in LwL!”
LaR: I have now received confirmation from her Ladyship of the security breach. I wasn’t going to take your word for it. š
Lady Snow: Be sure to put Mila is on watch 24/7.
Mila: Your guard will of course be female, lest you try your tricks again!
Snow,
“I canāt agree with you more on this! Hide š in LwL sanctuary, limerents are ever ready to put on LE scenarios at every corner.”
Yes, it’s like the limerent brain is bored if not fixated on someone.
ā Be sure to put Mila is on watch 24/7.
Mila: Your guard will of course be female, lest you try your tricks again!ā
All I wanted was to get a piece of that chocolate sledgehammer, but you insisted on not being in a room with me, so I had to unleash my inner Houdini to at least throw some pencils with LaR. I donāt think anyone can restrain me here since I think Iām finally limerence-free and know no limits or walls! And also donāt mind female guards, as long as they are fun and have chocolate.
Lady Marcia,
I assigned energetic, eager to serve Norma to guard Milaās sole refinement’s room on š©āš¦° š ās wing. But as your ladyship see, Mila š„ š š· exited the LwL wall at the Platform 9 3/4.
It seems that she threw more stolen pencils āļø to Sir LaR š before she escaped. LwL will have more LE dramas š in no time.ā¦ š
Our penitentiary is unable to lock any limerence-free witches š§āāļø, wizards š§āāļø, or lizardsš¦.
Wait, did I drop the ball?
Mila,
“All I wanted was to get a piece of that chocolate sledgehammer”
You can have all the chocolate you want. Just keep your hands off my dudes. š
Snow,
“It seems that she threw more stolen pencils āļø to Sir LaR š before she escaped. ”
She says she’s limerent-free. But she’s a troublemaker. š
“Our penitentiary is unable to lock any limerence-free witches š§āāļø, wizards š§āāļø, or lizardsš¦.”
She’s all three! š
Serial,
“In real life, people keep acting shocked when I come out with a comment like that.”
There are a lot of people who agree with you, but I don’t find him sexy at all in that role. Or in that outfit.
Norma,
Yes! When you sneaked into LOās house in the dusk, Mila threw more deadly pencils āļø āļø and escaped LwL! š
Now Lady Marcia will put you in another sole refinement cell, so you canāt always drive around LOās stupid, bewitching house, worsening your LE pains š«
Lady Marcia,
āLaR: I have now received confirmation from her Ladyship of the security breach. I wasnāt going to take your word for it. šā
Your ladyship should never take any words of those āchivalrous knightsā, young or middle aged, inside or outside LwL walls āļøš They just canāt help see šµāš« šµāš« all younger š„ š„ chicks, single or partnered, as damsels in distressāļøTheyād use every tricks ever invented in the history to drop those bewitching š§ āļø āļø in front of those š„ š„ š„ āļøš
Please triple š š š lock your stationary šŖāļø
Lady Marcia,
āShe says sheās limerent-free. But sheās a troublemaker. šā
Iāll have a word with Milaās MFFās boss, and assign them together to another mission abroad. Then the ātroublemakerā š„ š š· will leave your dudes alone in dungeons at least for a WHOLE WEEKāļø
She will use all her strategies and tricks to coach her loyal MFF to grasp the notion and content of her preferred Friendship š¤ š« ā perhaps her lifetime projectā¦ š
Ladyship,
“They just canāt help see šµāš« šµāš« all younger š„ š„ chicks, single or partnered, as damsels in distressāļø”
I’m probably not the best person to say anything. I’m not feeling all that positive about the other side right now.
Lady Marcia,
Sorry that youāre not feeling all that positive about the other sideā¦ I was more referring to LwL āknightsā, a lot of whom are āsissyā made of butter š§ or tears š ā¦ I, an Eastern Amazon Warrior, feel like saving themā¦
In the dating world, your ladyship has to prepare for the worst to encounter and deal with those āheartlessā catalog men. Itās a reality of ābig fish eat small fishā or āyounger fish eat older fishāā¦.
Your dude MJ šŖ£ š¦ never showed up in the past 24 hours for his assigned duty š āļø
Ah no. I really donāt want more business trips at the moment, and no trouble. I think Iām getting old.
XLO,MFF, or whatever is the right name, isnāt on my mind much and also texts less which suits me fine.
All good here on that front!
Why donāt Norma and I go to a nice holiday room? With a big garden of a nice house for Norma, and no trouble with tiresome men in sight. I wish a was a witch! Not a lizard though, maybe. Although, to lie in the sun all day.. (I really need holidays).
From the depths of my solitary confinement room, I really need to have a word about the management of this place. I’m concerned.
“I assigned energetic, eager to serve Norma to guard Milaās sole refinementās room on š©āš¦° š ās wing.”
Hang on. Surely Lady Mila (recovered limerent, but now
just enjoys throwing the odd pencil around for sport and giggles) should be guarding Lady Norma (double Limmy winner for MLTBEBTLO and best lim-story for ‘limerent for a house’)? Not the other way round.
How can the two of you justify Norma guarding Mila?
The way this place is being run is iffy. You should employ Mila and her pencils among the guards of us lim-men.
Governess Marcia,
“Youāre loving this, arenāt you? All this indirectness. :)”
Absolutely.
Indirect is my middle name……
Lim-a-indirect-rant! See?
“But you do you know that for sure? You know sheās not chasing you, specifically (as opposed to all men in general) because of what I referred to in that other post?”
I don’t need or want her to chase me. That would just mess my head up. The context for this part was a conversation with Snow where I said she had been single for many years (like about 7 years). Snow said I might be the reason for that. LO and I have honestly never discussed why we do or don’t chase each other. For now, that huge elephant sleeps quietly in a corner of the room. It may be exactly as you said in your example of your friend at work – she just ‘might not be that into me’. And that’s cool.
On the question of why she doesn’t chase others … the information about history that she’s given me tells me she is more on Snow’s page than yours when it comes to the potential of an encounter with a random but exciting stranger. She has to get to know someone first. They have to earn it.
š© š .
āHang on. Surely Lady Mila (recovered limerent, but now
just enjoys throwing the odd pencil around for sport and giggles) should be guarding Lady Norma (double Limmy winner for MLTBEBTLO and best lim-story for ālimerent for a houseā)? Not the other way round.ā
Well, any other female limerent could possibly mingle with her Ladyshipās dudes. Norma is in LE either with a gay-man or a house š , she was the safest guard anywhere in the entire LwL!
Why do you think her Ladyship put Norma in Naughty room with MJ šŖ£ š¦ and Adam š© š„ before I assigned her the honorable dutyā
Lady Snow,
Norma was your safest guard, and yet she still let š„šš· out for a spritz, an acronym chat and some pencil throwing with š© š!
Seriously, and meant with respect, I believe you ladies need to get a man on the management team in this place.
L.E. – could you please step in and sort this chaos out? I can’t as they have me in solitary still.
“Why do you think her Ladyship put Norma in Naughty room with MJ šŖ£ š¦ and Adam š© š„ ”
I don’t know. The decision making is chaotic. I can’t look for logic here. I don’t know what role you had in mind for Lady Norma in that naughty room. She doesn’t seem to know either. The only one who I think does know is Adam, and he’s being shy about saying.
Her Ladyship Snow,
“Your ladyship should never take any words of those āchivalrous knightsā, young or middle aged, inside or outside LwL walls āļøš They just canāt help see šµāš« šµāš« all younger š„ š„ chicks, single or partnered, as damsels in distressāļø”
Yeah, that’s all we need to do. Age in reverse and be helpless.
“Sorry that youāre not feeling all that positive about the other sideā¦ I was more referring to LwL āknightsā, a lot of whom are āsissyā made of butter š§ or tears š ā¦ I, an Eastern Amazon Warrior, feel like saving themā¦”
They are. Why do they think they can save anyone? š
“In the dating world, your ladyship has to prepare for the worst to encounter and deal with those āheartlessā catalog men”
I think you can remove the qualifier of “catalog.” š
“Your dude MJ šŖ£ š¦ never showed up in the past 24 hours for his assigned duty š āļø”
Of course he didn’t! He’s a man. š
Mila,
“Why donāt Norma and I go to a nice holiday room? With a big garden of a nice house for Norma, and no trouble with tiresome men in sight.”
That’s a good idea. You watch Norma and every time she refers to her LO, you make a loud horn sound. “BEEEEPPPPP!” And you direct back to her. She MUST talk about herself. š (There’s going to be a lot of “beeping” up in here! :))
LaR,
“From the depths of my solitary confinement room, I really need to have a word about the management of this place. Iām concerned.”
You’re a prisoner. You don’t have concerns. š
“Surely Lady Mila (recovered limerent, but now
just enjoys throwing the odd pencil around for sport and giggles) should be guarding Lady Norma (double Limmy winner for MLTBEBTLO and best lim-story for ālimerent for a houseā)? Not the other way round.”
I used your idea above. Sometimes even prisoners have good ideas. (This is provided it’s approved by her Ladyship Snow.)
“The way this place is being run is iffy. ”
You’ve said enough. You can zip it. š
LaR š,
āNorma was your safest guard, and yet she still let š„šš· out for a spritz, an acronym chat and some pencil throwing with š© š!ā
Norma is superb smart: she knows that š„ š š·would take her to other pretentious houses with a gigantic, lavish garden to gaze into and get endless dopamine hit!
Mila is always a sweet heart here in LwL, trying to meet both female and male LE needs. All she needs to do is to brew homemade mulled-wine and throw some āļø āļø (the short kind for babbling sheets.)
The issue now is that she claims sheās limerence-free, which would allow her in and out, over and under LwL without any barriers, as a š§, or š§āāļø or š¦ā¦
āSeriously, and meant with respect, I believe you ladies need to get a man on the management team in this place.ā
Her Ladyship and I are making fine decisions regarding the penitentiary rules and assignments. Donāt you forget that I grew up under āBig Brotherāsā nose and knew how to wear off you Lim boysā sissy behaviors in LwL.
āI donāt know what role you had in mind for Lady Norma in that naughty room. She doesnāt seem to know either. The only one who I think does know is Adam, and heās being shy about saying.ā
I just told you that itās safe that Norma would not try to grope her ladyshipās dudes but entertain them in female spirit. Adam has to be āshyā because his Mamma is in LwL. MJ just has to make do since his š„ LO and Grandpa š¦Æ are both beyond a reach of Milky Wayā¦
Inmate LaR,
“Indirect is my middle nameā¦ā¦Lim-a-indirect-rant! See?”
I’m not loving it. š
“Snow said I might be the reason for that. LO and I have honestly never discussed why we do or donāt chase each other. ”
Yeah, why would you want to discuss that? Limerents like the uncertainty. š You’ve never even clarified to make sure your friendship is platonic?
“On the question of why she doesnāt chase others ā¦ the information about history that sheās given me tells me she is more on Snowās page than yours when it comes to the potential of an encounter with a random but exciting stranger. She has to get to know someone first. They have to earn it.”
If I waited for someone to earn it, I’d never had any sex. š
That being said, she hasn’t found anyone in 7 years who wants to earn it? I don’t think just because someone is single, there’s something wrong. She may want to be. (despite the topic we referred to)
“Donāt think it was every day but I remember that when we did text, it went on for hours.”
That was happening but now silence.
“More than 50% of me wants to say āthatās wiseā. The other bit is the bit that doesnāt have a clue how online dating works today.”
The only thing a woman has to go on in the beginning is the effort a guy makes. How quickly he follows up after a date, if he asks for another date and shows up, if he keeps up communication between dates. What he says/does during the date (s) can be almost meaningless. It’s taken me a million years to figure this out. I was always so focused on how I felt.
“Oh gawd when they know how to do stuff like that, it is powerful, right?”
I’m not young. How much more time do I have to hear that kind of thing from a man I’m really into?
“Agonising. Truly agonising. To this day I feel regret that I turned that down.”
But you didn’t answer my question. Should we be putting ourselves in situations where those kinds of things can even happen? You must have done something to open the door ? I would have considered that a betrayal if I was your SO. I’m just being honest. We don’t explore other options if we’re partnered, do we? (Or, yes, explore them with people who are partnered.) That’s what I meant with LO-lite. He opened the door slightly. But I didn’t exactly shut it. I pushed it open a little more. He didn’t reveal that stuff to me randomly, out of the blue.
“Well done. How long?”
Several tries and a very long time.
“Trickier than it looks on paper, but yeah.”
It isn’t. š
“Snow seems pretty convinced that my LO reciprocates, based on various seeds Iāve scattered around the LwL farm at different times.”
Idk. She might. But you can’t know unless you confirm. And, then, honestly, you have to get them alone in a room. ‘Cause you never know. Words only go so far.
“It amuses me when you bang me to rights with that phrase š. Goes well with the current penititiary theme.”
I have to pin down you slithery types. š
“someone told me recently that āliving with my mumā is online dating code for āliving with my wifeā. Just watch out for it.”
I wouldn’t respond to someone who’s living with his mom, anyway. š
“I believe Governess āļø will soften with Sir š eventually, when she needs some šæ.”
You’re good with popcorn? We really don’t need it now, as our cleaner failed to show up. š
“She WAS here. I have the pencils and the memories to prove it.”
Well, now she’s tending to Norma. It’s a full-time gig. š
Lady Marcia,
āYeah, thatās all we need to do. Age in reverse and be helpless.ā
Well, just bring your dates/LO candidate to our Silver Moon š , where there is no age or death, and let them to win any board game they wish āļø āļøā¦
āThey are. Why do they think they can save anyone? šā
TestosteroneāļøTestosterone and Ego mixed with naive Romanticism delude their š§ in delirium. š
āOf course he didnāt! Heās a man. šā
But from time to time, his š¦ š š¦ flooded his entire house.
š£ Adam: Could you please check your Bro to see if heās swimming in his garden againā
āI used your idea above. Sometimes even prisoners have good ideas. (This is provided itās approved by her Ladyship Snow.)ā
Your ladyship, a lot of times, good ideas only come from prisoners (Cervantes), since locked limerents could do nothing else, to confuse or be confused in the worldāļø
Could someone please tell me if I am still in the Naughty Room and what I am supposed to be doing? I thought the Naughty Room was like a Time-Out Room where I was just supposed to sit quietly and read a book?
Your ladyship,
“Her Ladyship and I are making fine decisions regarding the penitentiary rules and assignments. Donāt you forget that I grew up under āBig Brotherāsā nose and knew how to wear off you Lim boysā sissy behaviors in LwL.”
Big brother would never have tolerated all the jiggery pokery that’s been going on. So far you’ve had a break in with contraband Aperol spritz and pencils, a cleaner go missing, and Norma regularly asking you both what her role in this naughty room is. Total chaos!
Gov,
Some more musings from the depth of the correctional.
“Youāve never even clarified to make sure your friendship is platonic?”
Never seriously. It is quite often joked about (not in an unkind way or like they actually believe it) by my other co-workers. But when it comes up, we just play into the joke and move on.
“I donāt think just because someone is single, thereās something wrong. She may want to be”
She says not – just that she’s fussy. She laments how long it has been quite a lot.
“What he says/does during the date (s) can be almost meaningless. Itās taken me a million years to figure this out. I was always so focused on how I felt.”
Oh really? That surprises me. Especially with that ‘handsy’ type stuff you spoke about.
“Iām not young. How much more time do I have to hear that kind of thing from a man Iām really into?”
Yeah I get your drift.
[āAgonising. Truly agonising. To this day I feel regret that I turned that down.ā
But you didnāt answer my question. Should we be putting ourselves in situations where those kinds of things can even happen? You must have done something to open the door ? I would have considered that a betrayal if I was your SO.]
It was at a work party. My SO at the time was there, might even have been watching. There was no way I could have done anything with it. The LO was pretty drunk, and made an outright proposition of sex, on the spot. Later that night after I’d brushed her off, she kissed two other members of my team and did more with one of them. We never spoke of it again. A year or so before that, when single, I had chased her hard. We had a couple of dates but she didn’t seem to want it to progress then.
“We donāt explore other options if weāre partnered, do we?”
We shouldn’t, but I think we’re well past the stage where either of us can deny that we have done.
“I have to pin down you slithery types. š”
Hey – who you calling slithery??!š
“I wouldnāt respond to someone whoās living with his mom, anyway. š”
Good job my SO didn’t feel like that (I actually was back then, just for a short while between homes). I don’t thing it was my biggest selling point.
“Youāre good with popcorn? We really donāt need it now, as our cleaner failed to show up. š”
What is Sir MJ’s punishment for a missed shift? This needs seriously thinking about.
“Well, now sheās tending to Norma. Itās a full-time gig. š”
I like that idea but Mila needs to improve her discipline, compared to in the dusk she spent with me, if she is to crack that nut.
Trucker,
“Big brother would never have tolerated all the jiggery pokery thatās been going on. So far youāve had a break in with contraband Aperol spritz and pencils, a cleaner go missing, and Norma regularly asking you both what her role in this naughty room is. Total chaos!”
Neither of us has children. What do you expect?! And we certainly aren’t used to policing grown adults! We are free spirits. We don’t want to be policed and we think other people should police themselves. But, you know, then there’s MJ. Can’t have that roaming the streets by itself …. Someone has to step up. š
LaR,
“But when it comes up, we just play into the joke and move on.”
Seems kind of odd to me, but I can’t really speak on it. I’ve never had a mixed-sex friendship where we communicating and hanging out one-on-one (as opposed to a group friendship) last as long as yours has with your LO. You said it was 7 years ? I don’t think most of them have lasted more than a few months. One went on a bit longer but we never hung out and he was the one who never made comments.
“She says not ā just that sheās fussy. She laments how long it has been quite a lot.”
That’s not being fussy. That’s being avoidant.
“Oh really? That surprises me. Especially with that āhandsyā type stuff you spoke about.”
It was usually some kind of sexual thing that may have gone into something more or it didn’t. I haven’t done a lot of traditional dating. Frankly, it causes me anxiety. Making conversation is hard! So I guess we’re going on this date. I’m not entirely sure why. I don’t think he’s that interested. And now I have to get the package ready, which I don’t think your side realizes is very time consuming. I’m going to do a medium level. I don’t intend to go full level; I’m not going home with him. I have a lot of mixed feelings about going. I kind of get the feeling this isn’t going to be much, so why bother? I’d rather stay home in my pajamas. Did I mention how much time it takes to get the package ready? !
“It was at a work party. My SO at the time was there, might even have been watching. There was no way I could have done anything with it. … A year or so before that, when single, I had chased her hard. We had a couple of dates but she didnāt seem to want it to progress then.”
So was it that she was drunk or that the door had been open for that whole year? Because if I’m coming onto someone at work … I’m going to have to get a lot of signs first. I’ve very strategic in who I would do that with. Speaking of your former LO and what she did with other co-workers, was that to get back at you or was she looking for some fun? I don’t know if I told you this, but I hooked up with LO’s friend for a while. That was also strategic.
“We shouldnāt, but I think weāre well past the stage where either of us can deny that we have done.”
Do you know there are people who go their whole lives without having any of these issues? They have partners and don’t have these little side situations going on. I’m not saying they don’t notice other people but it doesn’t become a thing. Do you think we’re just bored?
“Hey ā who you calling slithery??!š”
I thought it was pretty obvious. š
“Good job my SO didnāt feel like that (I actually was back then, just for a short while between homes). I donāt thing it was my biggest selling point.”
I was being a little sarcastic. Obviously, there are extenuating circumstances. Financial or maybe health issues. Either with the parent or the child. But as a general rule, no, it’s not a selling point.
“What is Sir MJās punishment for a missed shift? This needs seriously thinking about.”
He’s banished from the community. It’s like a Jamestown situation, and now he’s outside the really tall fence.
“I like that idea but Mila needs to improve her discipline, compared to in the dusk she spent with me, if she is to crack that nut.”
I’m not responsible for Mila and her discipline. š
Lady Snow,
“Well, just bring your dates/LO candidate to our Silver Moon š”
Yeah, that Silver Moon is good. It’s good lighting. It’ll make us look younger. š
“TestosteroneāļøTestosterone and Ego mixed with naive Romanticism delude their š§ in delirium. š”
Ah, yes. The Ego. I’d forgotten about that.
“But from time to time, his š¦ š š¦ flooded his entire house.
š£ Adam: Could you please check your Bro to see if heās swimming in his garden againā”
So … a garden is a reference to the female downstairs parts. š He’s not swimming in the garden. He might be swimming in his own tears. Drowning in his own tears. š
“Your ladyship, a lot of times, good ideas only come from prisoners (Cervantes), since locked limerents could do nothing else, to confuse or be confused in the worldāļø”
We probably need to give them something to do. Wear them out physically, like you would do with toddlers! š They have too much time on their hands. And that could lead to … thinking … and revolt!
Norma,
“Could someone please tell me if I am still in the Naughty Room and what I am supposed to be doing? I thought the Naughty Room was like a Time-Out Room where I was just supposed to sit quietly and read a book?”
Your case has been given over to a private contractor. Mila. You’ll need to ask her. We don’t handle High Resistant Types. š
š© š,
āBig brother would never have tolerated all the jiggery pokery thatās been going on. So far youāve had a break in with contraband Aperol spritz and pencils, a cleaner go missing, and Norma regularly asking you both what her role in this naughty room is. Total chaos!ā
Listen to what your ladyship I have to say ā Big Brother šØš³ š©has never seen a bunch of š° š„ š like limerents and seriously lost ITS wits what to do with them āļøā
1. š© š š® š©āš¦° š ¾ļøš š©āš¦° š ¾ļø š , āļø ā³āļøāļø , š“ šļø
2. šµ š« šļøāšØļø š š š ¾ļø š , š©š»āš¦Æāā”ļø š²š š š², š¶āš«ļø šŖ šŖ ā¦
3. š© šŗ šŗšæ š„ š» , š & āļø š¤² āļø šš„ š ¾ļø , š 4ļøā£ š„ ās šš»
4. š© š¹ š š„ š ¾ļø , šāāļø š š š¦ š§ā¦
5. š¦ šŖŗ š· š¦Æ āļø āļø ā¦ļø š š§š§ š§ š ā¦.
6. š« š¦āš„ šļø š¤ āļø š ¾ļøš , š®āšØ āļø š² š š š² āļø
7. š„ š š· šš»āāļø ā”ļø šŖ šš»āāļø ā”ļø šŖ š¤² āļø āļø āļø 2ļøā£ š²š .
8. š¤ š” š¤ š±š ¾ļø š š§āāļø š§āāļø šØ š¦ š¦ š¦
9. āŗļø š¤¬ š š š ¾ļøš¤¬ š¢ šŖ š§ š¦
10. š© š š± š½ š š£ š„“ š š šļø š¤ š¢ šŗšæ āļø šŗšæ āļø
11. š š§ š¢ šæ šŖ 4ļøā£ š» š°, š» š„, š» ššŖ
12. š š š¢ š¶āš«ļø šš ¾ļø š©āš» š ā
13. šØ š¬ š ¾ļø š¬ , š¬š-š æļø š¬ š āļø, š« š š§āāļø š š¤
14. āļø šļø š¦ š¦µš½ š š š šš»āāļø āļø āļø ā¦ļø āļø āļø āÆļø š¦āš„
š¢ ā šØš³ š© could do š š» š° š» š„ š» š š¤·š»āāļø āļø š¢
Wow. And here I was, just quietly reading a book because I thought I was in Time Out.
Now I have gotten myself in even more trouble somehow.
I blame Colin Firth.
@coffeehouse,
āBig brother would never have tolerated all the jiggery pokery thatās been going on. So far youāve had a break in with contraband Aperol spritz and pencils, a cleaner go missing, and Norma regularly asking you both what her role in this naughty room is. Total chaos!ā
Listen to what your ladyship I have to say ā Big Brother šØš³ š©usually deal with ideological or utopian minds with high aims and reasons. Big Brother has never encountered a bunch of š° š„ š like limerents and seriously lost ITS wits what to do with them š³ š¤Æ šµāš« š ā
1. š© š š® š©āš¦° š ¾ļøš š©āš¦° š ¾ļø š , āļø ā³āļøāļø , š“ šļø
Dignified navy officer chases every red hair appearing on the horizon, otherwise lies on the sunny beach šļø linking infinite, erudite websites.
2. šµ š« šļøāšØļø š š š ¾ļø š , š©š»āš¦Æāā”ļø š²š š š², š¶āš«ļø šŖ šŖ ā¦
Dashing Hollywood star stares at and gets dopamine hits from huge pretentious houses, then wanders around prison cells wondering which door to get in.
3. š© šŗ šŗšæ š„ š» , š & āļø š¤² āļø šš„ š ¾ļø , š 4ļøā£ š„ ās šš»
Impeccably dressed gentleman dances with his gins and beers, brings coffee dawn after dawn to his chick LO with a baby chick.
4. š© š¹ š š„ š ¾ļø , šāāļø š š š¦ š§ā¦
Soft kneed piano man gazes at chick LOās car in parking lot and then swims under his own tearfallā¦
5. š¦ šŖŗ š· š¦Æ āļø āļø ā¦ļø š š§š§ š§ š ā¦.
lizard/dragonās egg is coughing out purple lines inside a pile of cupcakesā¦
6. š« š¦āš„ šļø š¤ āļø š ¾ļøš , š®āšØ āļø š² š š š² āļø
Hu sledgehammer Dame stares at her cell, ready to punch its blank screen, while patrolling around her penitentiary with unstoppable sighs š®āšØā¦
7. š„ š š· šš»āāļø ā”ļø šŖ šš»āāļø ā”ļø šŖ š¤² āļø āļø āļø 2ļøā£ š²š .
āLimerence -freeā mulled wine sneaks in and out of LwL walls, throwing deadly pencils to Machiavellian limerents.
8. š¤ š” š¤ š±š ¾ļø š š§āāļø š§āāļø šØ š¦ š¦ š¦
Cybernetic, artsy sprit exterminates LO in cell phone, prays, yogas, meditates and paints in tearsā¦
9. āŗļø š¤¬ š š š ¾ļøš¤¬ š¢ šŖ š§ š¦
Sweet, soothing tent curses Narc LO in uninhabited wordsā¦ meditates, shred sorrowful tearsā¦
10. š© š š± š½ š š£ š„“ š š šļø š¤ š¢ šŗšæ āļø šŗšæ āļø
Slithery John Deere never stops whining, complaining in his confinement cell while fiddling with the forbidden pencils.
11. š š§ š¢ šæ šŖ 4ļøā£ š» š°, š» š„, š» ššŖ
Mother saint Bewitched š§āāļø šy wiping tears of every outcrying limerent.
12. š š š¢ š¶āš«ļø šš ¾ļø š©āš» š ā
Red-dressed lady is heart broken, pondering whether to send greetings to her universally smashing LO.
13. šØ š¬ š ¾ļø š¬ , š¬š-š æļø š¬ š āļø, š« š š§āāļø š š¤
Trifles texted LO then TO on and on around clock, now unable to take her hands off the dozing-eyed Mind Reader
14. āļø šļø š¦ š¦µš½ š š š šš»āāļø āļø āļø ā¦ļø āļø āļø āÆļø š¦āš„
āļø eyes on the unicorn Marble Butt ā DAVID in Florence and daydreams the entire galaxy in š¦āš„ signs, emojis, and gibberishā¦
š¢ ā šØš³ š© could do š š» š° š» š„ š» š š¤·š»āāļø āļø š¢
Now Pray Loud: What could Big Brother do with a bunch of mind-altered, crazy, crazy Limerents āļø
No police can stand straight šµāš« in front of š° š„ Limerents!
Someoneās mentioned my discipline. I donāt have any. I intend to have a bloody good time with Norma in that holiday room. Sun, deck chairs, Aperol spritz, champagne for Norma, chocolate, Colin Firth jumping into the lake for Norma, and Ryan Gosling picking up pencils for me.
Everyone welcome to join us, with exception of the welder.
‘Guard’ Mila,
Ah, that’s the first time The Welder’s name has cropped up in a while.
Last time I checked, I’m responsible for his security. Another reason that those Governesses should consider early release for me. The Welder could run amok without my eyes on him.
Gov,
“You said it was 7 years ?”
Closer to 11 years. It is pretty established. The 7 years was about her singledom.
“Thatās not being fussy. Thatās being avoidant.”
Yes, I think almost definitely avoidant.
“I havenāt done a lot of traditional dating. Frankly, it causes me anxiety. Making conversation is hard!”
Agree. That’s why I used to be very picky who I’d ask on dates, from the apps. I had to catch enough of a vibe from them that I thought conversation wouldn’t be awkward.
“I have a lot of mixed feelings about going. I kind of get the feeling this isnāt going to be much, so why bother? Iād rather stay home in my pajamas.”
It sounds like you’re pre-destining it a bit rather than going with whatever happens, maybe? Has something occurred in the messaging between you that’s caused your interest level to drop off?
“Did I mention how much time it takes to get the package ready?”
Does it take a long time to get the package ready? š
“So was it that she was drunk or that the door had been open for that whole year?”
I thought the door had shut but she was aware of my interest in her. That day, I think she was just drunk and wanting fun wherever she could find it. I didn’t feel the things with my other coworkers were done out of malice. She was just ‘on heat’ that day!
“Because if Iām coming onto someone at work ā¦ Iām going to have to get a lot of signs first”.
This was about 25 years ago, before everything was as politically correct at workplaces as it is now. All sorts went on on the ‘Christmas do’ back then!
“I donāt know if I told you this, but I hooked up with LOās friend for a while. That was also strategic.”
What effect did it have on LO and his behaviour?
“Do you know there are people who go their whole lives without having any of these issues? They have partners and donāt have these little side situations going on. Iām not saying they donāt notice other people but it doesnāt become a thing. Do you think weāre just bored?”
I can go ages without it happening. The LO has to trigger something in me. I’ve maybe got close to figuring out what that is, as we discussed. I had an LO about one year into my relationship with SO, followed swiftly by an LO-lite. But then I had a nice clear 5 or 6 years before this current one with literally nothing by way of side interests. I think it’s more to do with that thing you said before, about feeling like everything lines up and knowing it doesn’t happen often.
“Heās banished from the community. Itās like a Jamestown situation, and now heās outside the really tall fence.”
He’ll be back with his mop and bucket soon, I reckon.
“Iām not responsible for Mila and her discipline. š”
Mila is the softest of your guards. Reading some other posts, it seems she is giving Norma a decadent vacation, not a correctional. And Norma and Adam are busy planning dinner dates. I’m just saying.
Lady Snow,
I am astounded at your creativity today! Some fantastic emoting. Now, Lady Marcia has seemed to soften on whether I can be out of solitary now that I’m dutifully replying to all points in her messages and striving for better grammar. You will have seen Lady Mila raising a few concerns about the Welder. Is it time you let me emerge blinking into the sunlight again?
š© š,
āNow, Lady Marcia has seemed to soften on whether I can be out of solitary now that Iām dutifully replying to all points in her messages and striving for better grammar. ā
Yes, Iāve seen your serious self-reflection on your LFF vs. SO ābewitchingā LE dynamic and answered her ladyshipās questions with sincerity and respect. I reckon you have earned enough points to free yourself from LwL prison!
āYou will have seen Lady Mila raising a few concerns about the Welder. Is it time you let me emerge blinking into the sunlight again? ā
Yes, once youāre out, you must help lady š„ š š· and all of š» š» keep an eye on Welderās possible sneaking into LwL, thatās a LwL knightās honorable dutyā¼ļø
Here I š the SolitaryšŖ for Sir š© š š½! š
No champagne for me, I can’t drink, but I will take the chocolate, and Colin Firth, if he’s still available.
Lady Snow,
š„ I shall be forever in you and her fellow ladyship’s debt. Thank you for considering my pleas and these additional mitigating circumstances.
These days The Welder still lives in that en-suite barn, but I couldn’t keep him locked away 24-7 forever. So he does odd supervised maintenance jobs down at the šØāš¾ and at š. Think of it like giant community service in a controlled environment.
It kind of felt safer to keep him around in some form. Firstly because Bewitched would never actually confirm that she wanted him to go. And secondly … well, we both know the sensitivity in these parts around his parentage š©āš¦°.
Hopefully all of that has continued easily enough while I have had my little contemplative ‘stay’ at your ladyships’ hands. I haven’t heard any of the other LwL ladies raise any concerns about welder sightings, but I will keep an š and šout.
The Lawyer hasn’t been seen for a while. Do you have him up at ‘The Facility’ by any chance?
Inmate 888 (LaR),
“Closer to 11 years. It is pretty established. The 7 years was about her singledom.”
Didn’t you say you’ve been with your SO for 10 years? So you met your LO when you were single? Why didn’t you ask her out then?
“It sounds like youāre pre-destining it a bit rather than going with whatever happens, maybe? Has something occurred in the messaging between you thatās caused your interest level to drop off?”
Yes. His texting fell off. I didn’t say my interest level dropped. I wondered if his had.
“Does it take a long time to get the package ready? š”
It does! š
“I thought the door had shut but she was aware of my interest in her. ”
But how was she when it had been a year? What made her assume you were still interested a year later? Were you flirtatious with her? Staring at her, etc.?
“I didnāt feel the things with my other coworkers were done out of malice. She was just āon heatā that day!”
Is that a turn on? Because it isn’t for me. Some dude wanting “it” versus wanting “it” with me. Two different things.
“This was about 25 years ago, before everything was as politically correct at workplaces as it is now. All sorts went on on the āChristmas doā back then!”
I get that. But even in a more permissive workplace, I still wouldn’t come onto someone randomly. There would have to be signs.
“What effect did it have on LO and his behaviour?”
I don’t know if he knew. I didn’t tell him. I’m hoping the friend did. He finished what LO didn’t have the guts to finish. And, no, this guy wasn’t single, either. You figured that, right?
“Iāve maybe got close to figuring out what that is, as we discussed.”
Enough that you can nip it in the bud before it goes off into the ditch?
“I think itās more to do with that thing you said before, about feeling like everything lines up and knowing it doesnāt happen often.”
Yes, but I stress that lining up is the other person feeling the same way and at least a little something happening. There’s nothing to work with if the feelings aren’t mutual.
“Heāll be back with his mop and bucket soon, I reckon.”
Oh, yeah, he’ll be back. Don’t know if he’ll do any actual work, but he’ll be back. š
“Mila is the softest of your guards. Reading some other posts, it seems she is giving Norma a decadent vacation, not a correctional. And Norma and Adam are busy planning dinner dates. Iām just saying.”
I mean, yeah, they’re limerents. They think the rules don’t apply to them. š
“Now, Lady Marcia has seemed to soften on whether I can be out of solitary now that Iām dutifully replying to all points in her messages and striving for better grammar.”
Don’t know where you got that. For all I know, you’re just being good so you can get out of solitary, then you’re going right back to your evil ways.
Marcia,
“Didnāt you say youāve been with your SO for 10 years? So you met your LO when you were single? Why didnāt you ask her out then?”
Correct and correct. But my LO wasn’t single then, and that’s why I didn’t ask her out.
“His texting fell off. I didnāt say my interest level dropped. I wondered if his had.”
Do you know now?
“What made her assume you were still interested a year later? Were you flirtatious with her? Staring at her, etc.?”
I’d made disclosures of sorts a year earlier. I then got together with an SO only a few months after that. Yes, probably just staring, looks etc. I think that particular LO knew full well the effect she had on me. I wasn’t actively ‘interested’ a year later (was happy with the relationship I was in and would not have strayed) but I was still physically attracted to the LO, and she could probably tell that in my body language.
“Is that a turn on? Because it isnāt for me. Some dude wanting āitā versus wanting āitā with me. Two different things.”
No, that’s not a turn on. It’s just that she was a turn-on, period.
“I get that. But even in a more permissive workplace, I still wouldnāt come onto someone randomly. There would have to be signs.”
Yep, it’s fraught with danger. I wrote to you a while back that the fact my LO was workplace-based acted as extra insurance against either person ever saying or doing anything (yep, exactly the part of limerent behaviour you find maddening š).
“And, no, this guy wasnāt single, either. You figured that, right?”
Nope, I hadn’t! Where have all the singles been hiding in your part of the world???
“Enough that you can nip it in the bud before it goes off into the ditch?”
This one won’t go into the ditch. Yes, I need to pull back more (and ‘I know it’ š). What I was more talking about is that I think I’ve improved my ability to recognise and turn away from future glimmers. I think so anyway. But like you have said before, we don’t really test that until we find ourselves in that position again. I do know for sure that I would not want to put myself – and you could say my SO too – through a couple of years like that again.
“Yes, but I stress that lining up is the other person feeling the same way and at least a little something happening. Thereās nothing to work with if the feelings arenāt mutual.”
No, there’s nothing happening!! About the feelings being mutual, we’ll never know unless I ever ask. I might be blinded by what happened by my previous LO where it felt reciprocal, and it was eventually disclosed that it was reciprocal (I was not single and nor was she). The vibe between me and this one felt, for a while, very similar to with that previous one.
[āHeāll be back with his mop and bucket soon, I reckon.ā
Oh, yeah, heāll be back. Donāt know if heāll do any actual work, but heāll be back. š]
Don’t you see? You have the power here. You can make him do what you want. If you’re running this facility, run it with an iron fist! ā
[āMila is the softest of your guards. Reading some other posts, it seems she is giving Norma a decadent vacation, not a correctional. And Norma and Adam are busy planning dinner dates. Iām just saying.ā
I mean, yeah, theyāre limerents. They think the rules donāt apply to them. š]
Only you and Matron Snow can sort those three out, I reckon.
“Donāt know where you got that. For all I know, youāre just being good so you can get out of solitary, then youāre going right back to your evil ways.”
Right here, yesterday morning. You said to me I could move out of solitary if Matron Snow approved it. I sent my plea to her last night and she unlocked the door. It’s all been documented.
Sir LaR,
“Correct and correct. But my LO wasnāt single then, and thatās why I didnāt ask her out.”
Ha! I caught you! š You were attracted to her the whole time! This was never a friendship! Why do you befriend women you’re attracted to ? I tried to avoid befriending men I’m attracted to.
“Do you know now?”
I think it went well, but I still have no idea where things are going. Seems way too early to discuss it.
“Iād made disclosures of sorts a year earlier.”
Really? You? Kind of saying what you mean? š
“No, thatās not a turn on. Itās just that she was a turn-on, period.”
So after you heard what she did with the other dudes, were you still into her?
“Yep, itās fraught with danger. I wrote to you a while back that the fact my LO was workplace-based acted as extra insurance against either person ever saying or doing anything ”
That’s not really what I meant. Without getting signs from the other person of mutual interest and the door being open for the come on, I would not have made it. I didn’t do that with LO-lite because I was getting very weak (if any) signs. I would not randomly come onto someone unless I thought I had a pretty good shot.
“Nope, I hadnāt! Where have all the singles been hiding in your part of the world???”
I wasn’t interested in him. He was just LO’s friend. I wanted to stick it to him. Did that even happen? Who knows?
“This one wonāt go into the ditch. Yes, I need to pull back more (and āI know itā š). What I was more talking about is that I think Iāve improved my ability to recognise and turn away from future glimmers.”
Yes, that’s what I meant. I wasn’t clear. Future glimmers.
“No, thereās nothing happening!! About the feelings being mutual, weāll never know unless I ever ask. ”
Yeah, I can only speak for myself, but just guessing someone may feel the same way … that’s not enough.
“I might be blinded by what happened by my previous LO where it felt reciprocal, and it was eventually disclosed that it was reciprocal (I was not single and nor was she). The vibe between me and this one felt, for a while, very similar to with that previous one.”
I was just watching a reality show. Yes, yes, I’m sure it’s highly scripted. But it was about older people meeting with a dating coach and dating again after years or decades. They were all matched up on various dates. One of the women already had a guy in mind she met through work (they didn’t work together) and they had struck up a … well, what was it? They’d texted. He asked to take her out for her birthday because he missed her party. From the sound of his texts, the coach thought it sounded promising. I did, too. But when she asked him in person what was going on between them, he said he saw it as a friendship. I was surprised. What I mean is … you don’t know. Short of verbal or some kind of physical confirmation. I mean, you could be right. But you don’t know for sure.
“If youāre running this facility, run it with an iron fist! ā”
I mean, we’re having fun with this. But just to be clear, I don’t want to manage people.
“Only you and Matron Snow can sort those three out, I reckon.”
What’s with the “I reckon”? Are we on an episode of “Hee Haw”?
š
“Right here, yesterday morning. You said to me I could move out of solitary if Matron Snow approved it. I sent my plea to her last night and she unlocked the door. Itās all been documented.”
Funny how you actually remember something I say when it benefits you! š I will honor Her Ladyship’s decision. Still doesn’t mean I trust you. š
Be careful. Once you’re put in with my other dudes …. they could lead you astray. š
[“But my LO wasnāt single then, and thatās why I didnāt ask her out.ā
“Ha! I caught you! š You were attracted to her the whole time! This was never a friendship!”
Your ladyship, I admire the way you pick through the forensics of my stories to ensure there are no looseš§µ or slithery š left unexplored.
But I have been consistent with this part before. I told you there was an initial glimmer that I squashed (or thought I did) for many years. Matriarch Snow can confirm this, as I have been to the inner rooms for a long chat with her about this before.
“Why do you befriend women youāre attracted to ? I tried to avoid befriending men Iām attracted to.”
I mean if you want it in plain words, maybe because I am a flawed human being?!
I don’t know … I want to write you a better answer to this eventually. But I’m tying myself in word knots trying, and feeling like the grammar and comprehension checking service won’t like it š I’ll get back to you. For now, please don’t put me back in solitary for ducking it.
“I think it went well, but I still have no idea where things are going. Seems way too early to discuss it.”
Gotcha!
I’m nosy, I can’t help it.
Takes one to know one š
“Really? You? Kind of saying what you mean? š
Lol.
… I’m anispeptic, frasmotic, even compunctuous to have caused you such peric impopulation …
“So after you heard what she did with the other dudes, were you still into her?”
It burned out soon after that when she left the job – never any contact after that.
āI would not randomly come onto someone unless I thought I had a pretty good shot.”
I’m always been pretty much the same.
“Yes, thatās what I meant. I wasnāt clear. Future glimmers.”
I think I could recognise them and ‘get ahead’ of them so as not to let them in. But I don’t think I can truly raise any victory flags until I’ve faced it. And I am not sure I will face it anytime soon.
“But when she asked him in person what was going on between them, he said he saw it as a friendship. I was surprised. What I mean is ā¦ you donāt know. Short of verbal or some kind of physical confirmation. I mean, you could be right. But you donāt know for sure.”
I know that. I am well past the point where I think I would want to know. I did once, but now it is just easier not to know. We are past it. It is easier if she does just see me as a friend.
Here is a question for you about it. Let’s say you’re correct. All she has ever seen me as, is a friend. And say I’ve leaked loads of limerent symptoms (and I know I have done). What’s going on in her head? Why isn’t it “why doesn’t this annoying man stop doting on me and just get home to his SO?” and trying to get out of spending time with me? I can only conclude that she has to be alright with it just being there in the background. She makes zero attempt to get rid of me, truly. Can you make sense of that?
“But just to be clear, I donāt want to manage people.”
Not even MJ?
āAre we on an episode of āHee Haw?š”
Very good your ladyship. Reck’on!
“Funny how you actually remember something I say when it benefits you! I will honor Her Ladyshipās decision. Still doesnāt mean I trust you. š
Be careful. Once youāre put in with my other dudes ā¦. they could lead you astray. š”
I know. I am seeing the evidence. One is sharking 20-somethings and one is sharking 70-somethings. And that leaves everything in the middle š¬
Sir Dodges A Lot,
“But I have been consistent with this part before. I told you there was an initial glimmer that I squashed (or thought I did) for many years. Matriarch Snow can confirm this, as I have been to the inner rooms for a long chat with her about this before.”
I’ll take your word for it. š How soon after you met did you start hanging out one-on-one? I guess I just don’t understand why you can’t just be friends with guys. All of this could be avoided. It feels like this is all so unnecessarily complicated. Don’t befriend people you might want to bang or ever did. š (Sorry. Couldn’t help myself.) Seems easy enough to me.
[āWhy do you befriend women youāre attracted to ? I tried to avoid befriending men Iām attracted to.ā]
“I mean if you want it in plain words, maybe because I am a flawed human being?!”
Or you want both. A partner and women to hang out with you’re attracted to ? š
“Iāll get back to you. For now, please donāt put me back in solitary for ducking it.”
Do you think you need to go back into solitary ? š
[āI think it went well, but I still have no idea where things are going. Seems way too early to discuss it.ā]
“Gotcha!
Iām nosy, I canāt help it.
Takes one to know one š”
I think it’s too early to discuss it with him. That’s what I meant. I can’t really figure out what this guy is doing. There’s a theme! š
“But I donāt think I can truly raise any victory flags until Iāve faced it. And I am not sure I will face it anytime soon.”
I understand. Keep in mind … I chose to open the door with LO-lite.
“I know that. I am well past the point where I think I would want to know. I did once, but now it is just easier not to know. We are past it. It is easier if she does just see me as a friend.”
That’s a snore of an answer. (I’m kidding.) š
“Whatās going on in her head? Why isnāt it āwhy doesnāt this annoying man stop doting on me and just get home to his SO?ā and trying to get out of spending time with me? I can only conclude that she has to be alright with it just being there in the background. She makes zero attempt to get rid of me, truly. Can you make sense of that?”
Maybe it’s not that black and white. I only see him as a friend versus I see him as someone I want to bang. Maybe it’s somewhere in the middle. I like the attention. I like the male support. It’s kind of fun to think of … what if. But I’m never going to do anything about it. And I like the barriers. (These are all guesses on my part.)
“Not even MJ?”
I don’t have that kind of time left on this planet. š
“Very good your ladyship. Reckāon!”
You don’t walk around with overalls and no shirt, do you?
“I know. I am seeing the evidence. One is sharking 20-somethings and one is sharking 70-somethings. And that leaves everything in the middle š¬”
I mean, I’m all for sharking the Norma Desmonds of the world. So Adam gets all kinds of points in for that.
MJ … I can’t help him. š
Dame Marcia,
“Sir Dodges A Lot”
What am I dodging?
“How soon after you met did you start hanging out one-on-one?”
About halfway through – 5 years in.
“I guess I just donāt understand why you canāt just be friends with guys. All of this could be avoided. It feels like this is all so unnecessarily complicated. Donāt befriend people you might want to bang or ever did. š (Sorry. Couldnāt help myself.) Seems easy enough to me.”
Sounds easy on paper. But remember, I’m a limerent, just like you. I should know better, but I don’t always. I’ll say ten Hail Mary’s. We’ve established that my friend and LO baskets are more porous than yours are. Sometimes people move across them.
I am not going to go out looking for more of these ‘friendships with people I’d like to bang’ in the future. A lot of what I’ve learned about limerence and my own tendencies/triggers is since this latest LE and my coming to LwL.
“Or you want both. A partner and women to hang out with youāre attracted to ? š”
Please see above. Should know better but haven’t always known better. Sometimes I just ran (and yes, ran pretty knowingly) towards the pull of the magnet.
“Do you think you need to go back into solitary ? š”
No, I’m in clear mind and I’ll set how I get on with MJ and Adam in the naughty room with the Nescafe.
“I think itās too early to discuss it with him. Thatās what I meant. I canāt really figure out what this guy is doing. Thereās a theme! š”
I saw the end of your post to 777, and thought I won’t poke the bear about this part this time. But say more if and when you want to.
[āBut I donāt think I can truly raise any victory flags until Iāve faced it. And I am not sure I will face it anytime soon.ā
I understand. Keep in mind ā¦ I chose to open the door with LO-lite.]
Yeah OK … so I think you get why it happens on some level, but it is harder to understand with me because I have a partner. Fair? And also why (unlike LO-lite) I seem to keep a door ajar but never open it fully?
“Maybe itās not that black and white. I only see him as a friend versus I see him as someone I want to bang. Maybe itās somewhere in the middle. I like the attention. I like the male support. Itās kind of fun to think of ā¦ what if. But Iām never going to do anything about it. And I like the barriers. (These are all guesses on my part.)”
We’re both working in guesses, but I’d say these are about the best guesses that can be made. They’re similar to mine, and what a couple of other esteemed LwL women have said in the past about it.
[āNot even MJ?ā
I donāt have that kind of time left on this planet. š]
All you have to do is have an instant coffee with him.
[āVery good your ladyship. Reckāon!ā
You donāt walk around with overalls and no shirt, do you?]
Now my secrets are really being exposed š±
“I mean, Iām all for sharking the Norma Desmonds of the world. So Adam gets all kinds of points in for that.”
Oh yes, we all know Miss Norma is a good catch for Adam. I’m watching their budding relationship with interest.
“MJ ā¦ I canāt help him. š”
Your ladyship – this is a COFFEEhouse. You know what to do.
Dame Marcia š š š« , Sir Dodges a Lot,
Just a reminder from the Matriarch here:
MJ š šŖ£ š¦ is no longer in Naughty Room with Adam š© š„. He is locked in a deeper dungeon for now showing in my house for cleaning, and stole once the combination code of Safe. Plus, we need to give some privacy for Sir Adam š„ and Norma for their budding friendship to bloomā¦
BE clear where you are going in the maze of LwLā¦
So you two have to navigate the dungeon section of the LwL Prinsen, If you intend to accept his instant coffee invite (Dame Marcia) or scheme more LE tricks to get gazes of your respective LO/LFF. (Sir Dodge a Lot)
Typo: for NOT showing up in my houseā¦ (The word ānotā has always managed to escape in the LwL worldā¦)
š„± I need a triple expresso now āļø āļø āļø
“No, Iām in clear mind and Iāll set how I get on with MJ and Adam in the naughty room with the Nescafe.”
LaR,
Ah yes, Nescafe instant. I love it. I used to drink it all the time. Why I think I’ll just heat some water up over here in the handy little radar range the gals left for me. Adam and I will wait for you to come see us down here in the inner sanctum.
“MJ ā¦ I canāt help him.”
“Your ladyship ā this is a COFFEEhouse. You know what to do.”
She should. Even though I’m being unjustly punished. She thinks Adam and I are a bad influence on you but I keep trying to plead with her, we’re actually good Dudes.. š
Sir M of the J,
I was in higher level security than you (solitary) until Sunday. I talked myself all the way in there by myself by ducking Dame Marcia’s questions. So I wouldn’t worry about the ladies thinking you were a bad influence on me.
Being serious for a second, I have always found your LwL influence on me to be positive. I would like to ask some proper coffee (made from beans, not powder). But it’s a tiny gripe.
Adam seems to be having some larks with Norma in the naughty room. Since I’ve been let out of solitary, I feel like a bit of a gooseberry in there with those two.
You only got thrown in the dungeon when you no-showed on your cleaning assignment and tried cracking padlocks.
I’ve talked myself right into my own trouble with those two, so don’t worry with me.
888,
“What am I dodging?”
The Truth! “You can’t HANDLE the truth!” š
[āHow soon after you met did you start hanging out one-on-one?ā]
“About halfway through ā 5 years in.”
So what were you before? Just work friends? Did you communicate outside of work? Did you go to lunch alone during the work day or with other people? And when did the attraction die? I mean, how soon after you met? (You said you squelched it.)
“Weāve established that my friend and LO baskets are more porous than yours are. Sometimes people move across them.”
That’s because I’m not a man. š
“I am not going to go out looking for more of these āfriendships with people Iād like to bangā in the future. ”
But you said you have started friendships with women you have no attraction to, right ? So your motivation isn’t always pants-based ? š
“Sometimes I just ran (and yes, ran pretty knowingly) towards the pull of the magnet.”
I guess I just don’t get that. You have a partner. You didn’t feel the magnet and think … I should probably avoid this.
“I saw the end of your post to 777, and thought I wonāt poke the bear about this part this time. But say more if and when you want to.”
That’s going nowhere. I guess I’m too black and white with my thinking. It’s either super casual … as in: we’re banging, and have a nice day (which is getting less and less appealing as I’m getting older) or you’re dating and trying to get to know each other and seeing if things can progress forward into a relationship. But your side … perfectly happy doing this gray zone s**t. It’s not nothing but it’s not something. You want some level of interaction and friendship … because … what? The sex is better. It feels less anonymous ? But you’re not looking for much more than that. Now I don’t even want to have sex with him. I’m turned off by the whole thing. Too many hours of making conversation and trying to invest … for what? All of that takes a lot of effort. I’m essentially a shy person. So I’m right back where I started before LO-lite emailed me. All this anxiety and worry for nothing.
“Yeah OK ā¦ so I think you get why it happens on some level, but it is harder to understand with me because I have a partner. Fair?”
I’m not entirely sure what you’re asking.
“And also why (unlike LO-lite) I seem to keep a door ajar but never open it fully?”
No, I’ve never understood what you marrieds/partnereds are doing. Or what it is you want.
“All you have to do is have an instant coffee with him.”
I’m good. I’m not really looking to hang out with your side right now. š
{You donāt walk around with overalls and no shirt, do you?]
“Now my secrets are really being exposed š±”
You have a piece of hay hanging out of your mouth … š
“Your ladyship ā this is a COFFEEhouse. You know what to do.”
Nope. I don’t.
Miss Snow,
“MJ š šŖ£ š¦ is no longer in Naughty Room with Adam š© š„. He is locked in a deeper dungeon for now showing in my house for cleaning, and stole once the combination code of Safe. ”
Ok, I have no problem with him being locked away further in the dungeon. š
“Plus, we need to give some privacy for Sir Adam š„ and Norma for their budding friendship to bloomā¦”
Idk. We don’t want to encourage transference!
“If you intend to accept his instant coffee invite (Dame Marcia)”
I don’t. š
MJ,
“She thinks Adam and I are a bad influence on you but I keep trying to plead with her, weāre actually good Dudes.. š”
You’re just the kids we have to put plastic helmets on so you stop ramming yourself the wall. š
Your Ladyship,
[āPlus, we need to give some privacy for Sir Adam š„ and Norma for their budding friendship to bloomā¦ā
Idk. We donāt want to encourage transference!]
I think this budding friendship is a stone for two birds ā Sir Adam š© šŗ would forget his š„ LO, and Miss Norma will NOT always gaze at big pretentious houses, but a real Sir TO who is treating her so chivalrously! š š
After a while, they both will be out of their respective LE and get out of Naughty room. šŖ
Her Ladyship,
“After a while, they both will be out of their respective LE and get out of Naughty room. šŖ”
We’ll have to watch them closely. Limerents are not to be trusted! š
Lady Marcia,
āWeāll have to watch them closely. Limerents are not to be trusted! šā
True, tree! But in this case, Sir Adam š© š„ still has his Mamma (in LwL) keeping an eye on him, Iām much less concerned.
In terms of Miss Normal, Iād rather she gets a human TO asap; otherwise, if her children or grandchildren follow her footprints and all fall in limerence with beautiful houses, then our humanity is at high stakes šØ ā¦
Mademoiselle Snow,
There are no reply buttons left on the other coffeehouse so I moved this post over here.
“I am feeling better especially after taking dips in MJās š š¦ š¦ (his tear-falls).”
That has to be a deep pool! Wear a life preserver! š
[āØāIāll tell you want I can.ā]
“Iām taking your words as my daily cultural vitamins.”
Ok, but keep in mind I’m one person. Just one. š
“Yes. I think a familyās focus is on specific actions toned towards kidsā needs and benefits, especially. Parents have to or are glad to put aside/sacrifice their own interests and hobbies.”
Well, my family members are older. Their kids are grown. I meant that attempting to get to know them better is all but impossible. It’s just surface chat.
“I did not know, nor could except I can feel this way. From my past experiences, if without removing that longing ā the root of all LEs, a new limerence could come again or just replace an old one, which happened to me.”
That’s true, but don’t you think we need some longing. Or else what is the motivation to make friends or date? It’s a longing for connection. I actually think that one of the secrets of preventing limerence is to be happy and fulfilled, and part of that is having fulfilling relationships. Part of it.
“Heās NOTāš³ Hmmmā¦ perhaps heās hiding in your ladyshipās lush garden licking the old wounds”
That sounds sexual. š
“Sisterā¼ļø š³ Who could be INSIDE our control?āļø ātake him onā what āā ā bring him back to waltz in LwL Ball āor sit him up steadily on LwL Wallā (oh, the poor LaRāļø)”
I was talking about MJ. We just want to make him behave. I was kidding. š
“I have only 5% narcissistic ambition left, do you have 95% confidence to launch such an astronomical task? If you do, Iāll swear my allegiance to your lead ā¼ļøš āŗļø”
Well, like I wrote above, I was just kidding. But when he comes over to clean your bathroom and puts on his costume, you and I are going to sit outside the bathroom on folding chairs and watch! You can make popcorn. š
“In this culture, it seems to be so. In me, Iāve spent a great deal of time in reflection, which is deeply gratifying.”
It is, but it’s also not good to spend too much time living in one’s head. Need to get out into the world.
“I mean we want/appreciate like-minded supports, not just any kind. The GF and another self-centered gf would have two sets of feelings after supporting/saving the TV guy. If the latter feels crushed, and the GF tells her she should feel āhonored/validated, itās not going to be supportive, right? ”
It’s just sometimes listening to someone. But if someone is upset and the other person says they should be honored, the second person is a bit clueless and not paying attention to the first person’s distress. Yes, that would be annoying.
“I do feel supported by acts of service, since there are more human feelings/connections are manifested in those acts. ”
I can do most of those things for myself. (Not all, of course.)
“Sympathetic words are helpful only to certain points. }
It’s not just sympathetic words but actually hearing someone. Oh, they have a big work project they talked about two weeks ago, and one of their friends actually remembers and wishes them luck on the day of. That is very, very rare.
“Getting support from an empathic mind is a different matter; a truly empathetic mind is like gold or diamond to find/encounter.”
It is. It may not be reasonable to expect the other person to always understand you, but I have had friends who knew me well enough they knew how to talk to me if I was going through something. They knew how to calm me down. What would work for me. And that’s huge.
“Then imagine if this ear is your LOāļø”
I can’t. He wasn’t a good listener.
” I was a ācelebrityā for having successfully escaped weekcare and run home three times (between 4-6) and disobeyed other rules.”
Because you’re an INFP! š
“Having romantic interests without friendship was/is unthinkable to me personally. I canāt promote friends to LO file, but I need LO to be in both files.”
Well, I know that now, of course. I don’t know if I’ll be able to be attracted to someone and actually really like them. It just seems when you make friends (and your interest is only in friendship), you got at it from a different angle. Friendship is about showing someone who you are. Romance is … well, a little bit of hiding, a little bit of showing … at least in the beginning. It’s a different dynamic.
“Again, totally agree with you on this. As you said before, we should give what others truly need or want (emotionally & mentally), not force our assumption of their needs into their hands.”
That’s a good point, too. We assume we’re giving someone what they want or need, but are we really? Or are we giving someone the exact thing we give everyone else?
“But I cannot ignore her physical/medical needs, which would be Inhuman.”
I don’t agree. I think one of the options is always to walk away. Now, that would be in extreme cases. Care is not guaranteed. No one should expect it .But if you feel you want to help her and it’s even helping you to help her, then by all means do it.
“Thank you for your caring offer in advance, Sis š« , I might want it down the roadā¦ š”
Ok.
“It sounds like something inside you is really out of your control, like a wild horse ready to be unleashed by an LO. :
That might be true to a certain extent, but it’s not uncommon for people to be attracted to people who are bad for them.
“I think this wild š needs to be trained while youāre alone, before hit by another LO. ”
Well, I don’t want to meet another LO unless the person is available, into me, and wants something beyond entertainment.
But part of me likes the wildness. That’s the problem. š
“Parents, friends, community, schools, books, films, songsā¦.”
I wasn’t trained on how to find the right person. And books and films and songs glorify early romantic love that is often chaotic or destructive. Wuthering Heights?
“The amount of my LE stress/pain is NOT negligible.”
It can be very stressful.
“LO is just a ātoolā /catalyst.”
Well, it my case, anyway, it’s a catalyst to look at some of the choices I’ve made.
“To meet you in LwL has made me to a āchatty Snowāāļø š„°”
š
“Iāve found some of lost mind and time in my LEs, have youā”
I don’t think you can get back time. And I’m not limerent now, so my mind isn’t lost. I’m holding steady for now. š
āBut when he comes over to clean your bathroom and puts on his costume, you and I are going to sit outside the bathroom on folding chairs and watch!ā
So is this going to be a Dr. Frankenfurter style costume?
š¦,
Iām so lucky to have found my INFP sister, the ONE and ONLY Dame Marcia,š who, along with her dudes, is making my post-LE days and nights š š š ā Ouch, my stomach churns š ā¦ š ā¦.
Everyone in the street and subway saw my š was bewildered and then smiledā¦
I canāt wait to meet her ladyshipās LwL handyman in costume š ā¦ šŖ š®
Be ready with the $20 bills! š
š š¦
Lady Marcia said it was freeā¦. Itās āget free from jailā card for š¦ šŖ£ š¦ š, plus he would enjoy it (Iāve already locked my underwear in the safe) šŖ
Serial,
“So is this going to be a Dr. Frankenfurter style costume?”
You’re a little kinky, aren’t you? š
Snow,
Iām so lucky to have found my INFP sister, the ONE and ONLY Dame Marcia,š who, along with her dudes, is making my post-LE days and nights š š š ā Ouch, my stomach churns š ā¦ š ā¦.
Everyone in the street and subway saw my š was bewildered and then smiledā¦
I canāt wait to meet her ladyshipās LwL handyman in costume š ā¦ šŖ š®”
Glad to know you, too! I’m looking forward to seeing the costume, too. š
Serial,
“Be ready with the $20 bills! š”
You are a big tipper! It’s: Get your dollar bills ready! And I don’t even know if he can dance! I ain’t tipping unless he can dance! š
Snow,
“Lady Marcia said it was freeā¦. Itās āget free from jailā card for š¦ šŖ£ š¦ š, plus he would enjoy it (Iāve already locked my underwear in the safe) šŖ”
Good. Best to be safe. š
@Marcia
In real life, people keep acting shocked when I come out with a comment like that. I think they donāt know me that well, lol
“Lady Marcia said it was freeā¦. Itās āget free from jailā card for š¦ šŖ£ š¦ š, plus he would enjoy it (Iāve already locked my underwear in the safe) šŖ”
ā
You may have locked it but I know the combination.. š
MJ šŖ£ š¦ ,
The 66-digit combination of safe š is changed at daily basisā¦ LwL is never a safe place with mind-altered limerents tumbling aroundā¦ Not even Big Brothers š® š®āāļø know what to do with them, so they shy away in the East, mainly!
You just promoted yourself to the dungeon cell, ALONE! š” Her Ladyship Marcia would agree with me!
Not even your Grumpy Grandpa could get you out of LwL dungeon! š“āā ļø You can recall your š„ LOās š there with infinite š¦ šŖ£ (There is a very good plumbing system there, so you wonāt get drowned.)
Lady Marcia,
I hope youāre having an easy Friday! Itās FridayāļøMy powder room is getting cleaned by the ONE and ONLY MJ š¦ šŖ£ š¦!
[ (his tear-falls).āāØThat has to be a deep pool! Wear a life preserver! ]
Thatās what I thought and felt, based on your dudeās life story. š¢
[āIām taking your words as my daily cultural vitamins.āāØOk, but keep in mind Iām one person. Just one. }
Yes, Iāve been trying different cultural vitamins to test out which would work for my body/mind. Thank you so much for your donation! š
āWell, my family members are older. Their kids are grown. I meant that attempting to get to know them better is all but impossible. Itās just surface chat. ā
Our older generation probably has closed their mind off… Whenever I asked Mom some crucial questions, she would say āI forgotā, while she could impressively remember some long-time-ago stuff. So I donāt even chat with her anymore; I had more stuff to chat with my ex-in-laws who are from another culture!
āThatās true, but donāt you think we need some longing. ā
No, we do NOT need some longing! I finally understand DrLās point: this longing is actually agony, which is also gloried in Western culture. Itās also discussed in depth in an article Bewitched linked a while ago, I canāt find it.
If it were three months ago, Iād join your choir to sing the glories of Longing ā I had it since I was 4 and always thought because of it I was more emotionally ārich, able to sense/detect othersā longing as well. But actually, my longing had prevented me from truly understand whatās going on with my friendsā pains in their reality and thus unable to properly care for their needs or wants.
āOr else what is the motivation to make friends or date? Itās a longing for connection. ā
I thought my small or big LE would fulfill that longing, but NONE of xLO could, NONE! Only after I removed this longing, I knew/know that it IS a longing for connecting with ONESELF! That longing was left from my neglected & traumatized childhood and finally the hole was filled by my own hand/strengthā¼ļø(I did get unexpected helpā¦)
DNA pair-bonding drives may motivate us to seek LO/bf/SO, but this longing is NOT DNA drive, itās something from our past traumas (definitely in my case), remembered or forgotten. Now without this Longing, I have more mental space, freedom, carefree, and Agape š§” to make friends or dates. Havenāt you sensed my ease in the past couple of monthsā
āI actually think that one of the secrets of preventing limerence is to be happy and fulfilled, and part of that is having fulfilling relationships. Part of it. ā
Very true that happiness and fulfillment in oneās own life would prevent limerence, but one can have this happiness or fulfillment without a pair-bonding relationship ā itās icing on the cake. We need to have our solid cake baked firstā our own fulfillment, to make, receive and hold such āicingā.
I know I canāt convince you to feel/know something that is not in you yet. I could not even convince myself three months ago. Now, Iām on the other side of the wall, for the first time in my life, I KNOW what it feels like without that nagging Longingā¼ļø Gosh, I so wish you could be with me to feel itā¦
āHmmmā¦ perhaps heās hiding in your ladyshipās lush garden licking the old woundsāāØThat sounds sexual. ā
Oh, your ladyship, hold on your horse here ā I need seriously asking:
A). what does āthat sounds sexualā mean? Is it complimentary or derogatory in this culture?
B). Whatās difference between āsexualāand āsexyā? In COO, the formal was taboo, negative, something to do with ābeastly instinctā. The latter is getting more positive attitude since Hollywood has āinvadedā COO.
C). In nature, all mammals lick their wounds to heal, I was using a metaphor for humans to lay quietly to heal some mental/emotional hurts, why would it āsound sexualāā
[Who could be INSIDE our control?ā¦
I was talking about MJ. We just want to make him behave. I was kidding. ]
Oh, MJ is a soft-shell goose egg š„, not a lizard-scale Humpty. A little boy and I (5-6 yrs) saw such a soft-shell šŖæ š„ in a muddy puddle, we ignorantly broke it with a stick. Somehow its flowing yoke stuck in my mind, I might have thought that I killed an unformed š£
āBut when he comes over to clean your bathroom and puts on his costume, you and I are going to sit outside the bathroom on folding chairs and watch! You can make popcorn. ā
Sis, Iāve already had my folding šŖ out, chilled champagne,š„, exotic hors dāoeuvres š± ready to serve! (Have you seen BBC documentary āTea with the Dames?ā Itās cool.)
āIt is, but itās also not good to spend too much time living in oneās head. Need to get out into the world. ā
I am a ādoerā for one hour, then a ābeingāfor the following two hours. Without reflection on what I do, all activities somehow carry little meanings; I want and need to make meanings out of my small and big āendeavors.ā I feel like āpensiveā all the timeā¦ But I could focus on you if you talk with me.
āItās just sometimes listening to someone. But if someone is upset and the other person says they should be honored, the second person is a bit clueless and not paying attention to the first personās distress. Yes, that would be annoying. ā
That was what I meant: I donāt want ācluelessā, or insensible, or un-empathetic support. Passive listening, even uncomprehending, is fine.
āI can do most of those things for myself. (Not all, of course.)ā
Besides driving or heavy lifting, I can do amazingly amount of things for myself, too; buying them could be convenient but Iām frugle.
When others offer acts of service, there is a lot of care given in their intention and actions, which is so endearing and touching, and which cannot be valued or bought in silver coins. A part of human connection can be built through acts of service for each other. Thatās how it has been done in COO for thousands of years.
āItās not just sympathetic words but actually hearing someone. Oh, they have a big work project they talked about two weeks ago, and one of their friends actually remembers and wishes them luck on the day of. That is very, very rare. ā
š. There is a lot of care given in such acts of listening and speaking. Itās another form of acts in mental serviceāļøWho does not want/love themāļø
āIt is. It may not be reasonable to expect the other person to always understand you, ā
Yes. I expect almost no one who could āalways understandā me, but I appreciate if they simply ask questions when they do not, which also shows their care. What I remember most about Granny and my Japanese gf is their earnest curiosity ā sincerely ask you anything they did not understand, which made you feel that anything you cared about mattered, because someone else wanted to knowāļø
ābut I have had friends who knew me well enough they knew how to talk to me if I was going through something. They knew how to calm me down. What would work for me. And thatās huge. ā
Indeed! Youāre socially skillful to have made such friends. My close girlfriends could not really understand my complexity or calm me down, but theyād patiently listen to me. It was usually up to me to calm down myself.
āI donāt know if Iāll be able to be attracted to someone and actually really like them. It just seems when you make friends (and your interest is only in friendship), you got at it from a different angle. ā
True to my non-LO friends. Nowadays I donāt have enough time or interests to make just LE-free friendship. I need to have minimum degree 3-4 Glimmer to make an effort.
āFriendship is about showing someone who you are. Romance is ā¦ well, a little bit of hiding, a little bit of showing ā¦ at least in the beginning. Itās a different dynamic. ā
Here goes the BIGGEST difference between Western romance and COO relationship = romantic feelings & friendship (the former comes first, of course). Hiding? ā itās cheating that works temporality. Showing? ā vanity that would NOT last long. š¤Ø
āWe assume weāre giving someone what they want or need, but are we really? Or are we giving someone the exact thing we give everyone else?ā
Very good questions to ask before we act out our āgivingā! The challenge is that even if we intend to give something unique, it may still not be what our friends need or want, let alone generic stuff āļø
āI think one of the options is always to walk away. Now, that would be in extreme cases. Care is not guaranteed. No one should expect it .But if you feel you want to help her and itās even helping you to help her, then by all means do it. ā
There are responsibility in life we simply canāt walk away, like Momās needs for my translation to get her health taken care. You simply canāt hire someone all the time. It doesnāt help me to help her, but I have to do it. Therefore, Iāll do it without resentment for the past ā IT IS LONG GONE! We live here and now, let the past be past!
āThat might be true to a certain extent, but itās not uncommon for people to be attracted to people who are bad for them. ā
Probably in this culture? Itās utterly unfathomable for me or most people in COO šµāš« šµ āļøAs mentioned in my previous post, we were trained to be smart since little, itās a culture that emphasized on wisdom, not Romance. Here in the West, irrational Romance has been the main course of the day for the last 200 years!
āWell, I donāt want to meet another LO unless the person is available, into me, and wants something beyond entertainment.ā
Of course, which single limerent doesnāt wish soā
āØ āBut part of me likes the wildness. Thatās the problem. ā
It is. Iāve never liked wildness, itās scaryā¼ļø
āI wasnāt trained on how to find the right person. And books and films and songs glorify early romantic love that is often chaotic or destructive. Wuthering Heights?ā
Sister, youāve just summarized the essential problems of Western Romanticism, very glad you said it, not meā¼ļø In COO, 99.9% of the readers could not understand why Heathcliff is attractive man and why Wuthering Heights is considered a famous classic! Itās such a maddening, poisonous āloveā!
[āLO is just a ātoolā /catalyst.āāØWell, it my case, anyway, itās a catalyst to look at some of the choices Iāve made. ā]
Perhaps with your therapist, you could explore your past choices and their roots, through xLOs you landed on.
[āIāve found some of lost mind and time in my LEs, have youāāØI donāt think you can get back time. And Iām not limerent now, so my mind isnāt lost. Iām holding steady for now. ]
Youāre talking about chronic time, Iām talking about Einsteinās āRelative Timeā, which is affected/defined by its quality spent by individuals. When one recalls past events, reflect/learn about some mistakes in them, then relive/savor some āmissed jewelsā in themā¦ one āgains backā the lost/past time (refresh memories, like you recall your date of yesterday). Thatās how Proust has found his lost time through his marathon books, talking about āno eventsā.
Some of my mind was lost in my past LEs, which was then found through self-reflections and deep chats here. I know now what NOT to lose in my future relationships/friendships. I found that Longing was the root of all my pervious LEs, which then was removed three months ago. Now Iām becoming more content, or joyful at ease , or fulfilled without superficially doing much ā¦.
Not sure if Iāve made myself clear for this last point. š
Her Ladyship Snow,
“My powder room is getting cleaned by the ONE and ONLY MJ š¦ šŖ£ š¦!”
Inmate 777 did not show up!
“Yes, Iāve been trying different cultural vitamins to test out which would work for my body/mind. Thank you so much for your donation! š”
You’ll need other vitamins, though. I’m kind of a strange person. š
“Our older generation probably has closed their mind offā¦ Whenever I asked Mom some crucial questions, she would say āI forgotā, while she could impressively remember some long-time-ago stuff. So I donāt even chat with her anymore.”
What kind of questions did you ask her? In terms of the relatives I was referring to, there were around my age (a touch younger). They just don’t want to discuss anything beyond the most surface topics.
āNo, we do NOT need some longing! I finally understand DrLās point: this longing is actually agony, which is also gloried in Western culture. Itās also discussed in depth in an article Bewitched linked a while ago, I canāt find it.”
That is so true. It is glorified.
BEWITCHED: If possible, could you repost that article?
“But actually, my longing had prevented me from truly understand whatās going on with my friendsā pains in their reality and thus unable to properly care for their needs or wants.”
Talk more on this. What do you mean?
“DNA pair-bonding drives may motivate us to seek LO/bf/SO, but this longing is NOT DNA drive, itās something from our past traumas (definitely in my case), remembered or forgotten. ”
I hear what you’re saying. I agree, but do you think part of it is also personality? That some personalities just long more?
“Now without this Longing, I have more mental space, freedom, carefree, and Agape š§” to make friends or dates. Havenāt you sensed my ease in the past couple of monthsā”
Yes, I definitely sense a change.
“Very true that happiness and fulfillment in oneās own life would prevent limerence, but one can have this happiness or fulfillment without a pair-bonding relationship ā itās icing on the cake.”
Yes, I agree. When I say “relationships,” I mean any kind. Not just romantic.
“I know I canāt convince you to feel/know something that is not in you yet. ”
It’s not that I don’t believe you. I just can’t imagine it.
“A). what does āthat sounds sexualā mean? Is it complimentary or derogatory in this culture?”
I explained it in another post, but garden is a reference to a lady’s lady bits.
“B). Whatās difference between āsexualā and āsexyā? In COO, the formal was taboo, negative, something to do with ābeastly instinctā. The latter is getting more positive attitude since Hollywood has āinvadedā COO.”
Just a quick Google search … sexual refers to the biological and physical aspects of sex and reproduction; sexy is a subjective term associated with attractiveness and allure.
“C). In nature, all mammals lick their wounds to heal, I was using a metaphor for humans to lay quietly to heal some mental/emotional hurts, why would it āsound sexualāā”
Well … um … think about how I defined garden.
“Oh, MJ is a soft-shell goose egg š„, not a lizard-scale Humpty. ”
I agree that he is a softie. But not sure exactly what you are referring to. What is a lizard-scale Humpty?
“Sis, Iāve already had my folding šŖ out, chilled champagne,š„, exotic hors dāoeuvres š± ready to serve! (Have you seen BBC documentary āTea with the Dames?ā Itās cool.)”
That’s sounds wonderful! I’m in! With or without our cleaner showing up! š
“I am a ādoerā for one hour, then a ābeingā for the following two hours. Without reflection on what I do, all activities somehow carry little meanings; ”
I just feel like I’ve spent so much time existing in my head, I’ve forgotten it’s important to live.
“Besides driving or heavy lifting, I can do amazingly amount of things for myself”
Then why do acts of service mean something?
“When others offer acts of service, there is a lot of care given in their intention and actions, which is so endearing and touching, and which cannot be valued or bought in silver coins. ”
Idk. Sometimes it feels like people who like to do acts of service do them for everyone. They don’t stop to think the person might not need them. Or value them. They just blunder forward and do what they want to do … regardless.
“š. There is a lot of care given in such acts of listening and speaking. Itās another form of acts in mental serviceāļøWho does not want/love themāļø”
This means the most to me. If the person can remember anything I say, remember something that is important to me and ask me about it later …
“What I remember most about Granny and my Japanese gf is their earnest curiosity ā sincerely ask you anything they did not understand, which made you feel that anything you cared about mattered, because someone else wanted to knowāļø”
Yes, this is a special gift they gave you! š
“Indeed! Youāre socially skillful to have made such friends.”
Not really. I just happened to stumble upon some people I connected with.
“True to my non-LO friends. Nowadays I donāt have enough time or interests to make just LE-free friendship. I need to have minimum degree 3-4 Glimmer to make an effort.”
I don’t know what you mean by this. Maybe it’s my Western thinking but LOs and friendships are two separate things. I’m not looking for a glimmer when I’m trying to make new friends.
“Hiding? ā itās cheating that works temporality. Showing? ā vanity that would NOT last long. š¤Ø”
No. You just don’t hand over the whole kit and kaboodle immediately. You want the person to be curious about you, and it takes time to get to know someone.
“The challenge is that even if we intend to give something unique, it may still not be what our friends need or want, let alone generic stuff “āļø
Exactly. Just what I was saying about acts of service.
“There are responsibility in life we simply canāt walk away, ”
I’m sorry. I don’t agree.
“Therefore, Iāll do it without resentment for the past ā IT IS LONG GONE! We live here and now, let the past be past!”
You don’t have to stew in resentment about it, but that doesn’t mean you have to forget.
“It is. Iāve never liked wildness, itās scaryā¼ļø”
Well, I don’t want it 24/7 but a little here and there.
“In COO, 99.9% of the readers could not understand why Heathcliff is attractive man and why Wuthering Heights is considered a famous classic! Itās such a maddening, poisonous āloveā!”
I agree with that assessment now. She’s horrible to him and then he essentially destroys himself and everyone around him to seek revenge. It’s not romantic. It’s sick.
“Perhaps with your therapist, you could explore your past choices and their roots, through xLOs you landed on.”
That would be a good idea.
“When one recalls past events, reflect/learn about some mistakes in them, then relive/savor some āmissed jewelsā in themā¦ one āgains backā the lost/past time (refresh memories, like you recall your date of yesterday). Thatās how Proust has found his lost time through his marathon books, talking about āno eventsā.”
Ah, ok. I like that concept.
“I found that Longing was the root of all my pervious LEs, which then was removed three months ago. Now Iām becoming more content, or joyful at ease , or fulfilled without superficially doing much ā¦.Not sure if Iāve made myself clear for this last point. š”
Yes, you have. I get it intellectually. I just don’t feel it emotionally, if that makes sense.
Lady Marcia,
āInmate 777 did not show up! ā
No, he did not show up and stole my Safe code of yesterday. So I sent him to the LwL dungeon Alone. He would have a plenty of time to read our co-written novels.
āYouāll need other vitamins, though. Iām kind of a strange person. ā
As you ladyship sees, that Iāve tried many cultural vitamins without even leaving LwL ā Christianity, Catholicism, Crusades, Stoicism, Greek Mythology, etcā¦
āWhat kind of questions did you ask her? ā
I asked her where I slept between 4-7 years old, and how our dining table looked like, and what we did in evenings and weekends. I only remember the kitchen, stove, the closet and balcony well, nothing in relating to playing or reading bedtime stories with them.
āIn terms of the relatives I was referring to, there were around my age (a touch younger). They just donāt want to discuss anything beyond the most surface topics.ā
With my relatives, young or old, I asked what they like to eat, drink, and buyā¦ prices of things under the sun! š
āBEWITCHED: If possible, could you repost that article? ā
Bewitched: you posted it on 6/9/24, not sure which blog.
Iāll attach a passage in a separate post after this one.
[āBut actually, my longing had prevented me from truly understand whatās going on with my friendsā pains in their reality and thus unable to properly care for their needs or wants.āāØTalk more on this. What do you mean? ]
When I was stuck in my vague, nagging longing, my mind (sub)consciously constantly searched for āunknownā fillers to fill this āholeā inside me, and my focus was on myself most of the time. Iād listen to my friends, but mostly heard my own interpretations of their thoughts or sentiments or stories ā to look at their issues through my lens, but not their perspectives. I was an attentive, but ācracked/broken mirrorāto them.
Without true understandings of their pains, how could I empathize or even sympathize with them? I blindly touch the elephantās ears, you the tusk, how could we have rounded views on an elephant?
āI hear what youāre saying. I agree, but do you think part of it is also personality? That some personalities just long more? ā
Personality is partially shaped by traumas, isnāt it? I had a lot more āEā of MBTI (before 6 grade) but later (after being mocked publicly) was forced to change to āIā. I feel Iām behaving with more āEā again nowadays, here and in reality.
But longing might be wired in the brain through genes, I sensed much stronger longing in Mom, but rarely in Dad or Granny.
āYes, I definitely sense a change.ā
I canāt tell you enough how much I love this new change! I now understand what carefree really means.
āYes, I agree. When I say ārelationships,ā I mean any kind. Not just romantic. ā
Sis, we are on the same page here! Romance is just a portion of oneās life, marvelous to have, but one may have/get it, due to many factors. It should not fill up our head; otherwise, weād be mad like with Heathcliff!
āItās not that I donāt believe you. I just canāt imagine it. ā
I know, I know. Itās like you know all about motherās birthing pains and their whys/hows, but you canāt feel it, unless your body goes through it.
āI explained it in another post, but garden is a reference to a ladyās lady bits. ā
I saw it! No one else up to your post ever told me what āgardenā is allude to š! Itās a beautiful analogy ā¼ļø What did I say about your cultural vitaminsāļø
āsexual refers to the biological and physical aspects of sex and reproduction; sexy is a subjective term associated with attractiveness and allure. ā
Can words be sexual and sexyāš¤
āI agree that he is a softie. But not sure exactly what you are referring to. What is a lizard-scale Humpty?ā
Itās lizardās šŖŗ , metaphorically has scales, able to sit on walls, bewildering Alice or anyone with Wittgensteinās verbal tools š„ š¤
āThatās sounds wonderful! Iām in! With or without our cleaner showing up! ā
Weāll go ahead with our chilled šø š¹ and š± without our cleaner, heās š šŖ£ in a deep dungeon now.
āI just feel like Iāve spent so much time existing in my head, Iāve forgotten itās important to live. ā
So, you donāt think deep feeling, reflecting, contemplating is a part of living? (Of course, not all). If we just thoughtlessly do things one after another without mentally and emotionally absorbing/digesting what we have done, what would be differences between us and dementia or Alzheimer sufferers?
āThen why do acts of service mean something? ā
They mean the giversā care/affection for you, especially when itās not necessarily needed. Letās say, you feel lazy to cook a homemade meal this evening and too tired to go out, and your friend happens to be free and offers to cook a simple meal for both of you and eat it together. No advanced planning is involved.
āSometimes it feels like people who like to do acts of service do them for everyone. ā
Not most of COO folks, they are selective to whom to provide acts of service, they can be very calculating. I definitely donāt do it for everyone, but selected friends.
āThey donāt stop to think the person might not need them. Or value them. They just blunder forward and do what they want to do ā¦ regardless.ā
They know what you mean. I had those busy š acquaintances in the past, later I just ran and stayed away. They can even be annoying, because their services could intrude into your own private comfortable or safe space.
āThis means the most to me. If the person can remember anything I say, remember something that is important to me and ask me about it later ā¦ ā
Totally agree with you here! I seem to have easier time to remember ā involving mental and emotional digesting, othersā words/facts/details than my own. As a serious and joking chatterbox, I just blah, blah, blah and then forgot what I had blahedā¦
āI donāt know what you mean by this. Maybe itās my Western thinking but LOs and friendships are two separate things. Iām not looking for a glimmer when Iām trying to make new friends. ā
Yes, thatās a Western idea that LOs and friends are two separate things, theyād never work for me. Iām not looking for a glimmer in anyone, but I need a bit of glimmer to start a friendship.
Like I said in the other post the other day: my existing friends canāt be transfered to āLOā file due to the absence of initial Glimmer; but a new āLOā needs to be able to move back and forth between both files, with Glimmer took place first. Degree 3-4 Glimmer wonāt lead a guy into āLOā file, so I can try to put him in the āfriendā file. Who has time for grade 0-2 Glimmer friendship nowadays?
Maybe I should use ābeamā for the requirement of a friend? That guy has beamed grade 9-10 to be my confidant friend, but I canāt possibly go to bed with himā¦ š„°
āNo. You just donāt hand over the whole kit and kaboodle immediately. You want the person to be curious about you, and it takes time to get to know someone.ā
Okay. It sounds reasonable to me now, and I WANT to reinvent myself more and fast, so the other side could never āget holdā all of me but get dizzy or confused šµāš« I have to be a highly skillful chameleon š¤!
āYou donāt have to stew in resentment about it, but that doesnāt mean you have to forget. ā
There is no difference in our thinking on this matter. I never said, āforgetā. Itās never āforgetā but always āforgiveā. Once truly forgiving, resentment would naturally go. Then, one is at peace even if one had to be responsible. Itās Stoic to forgive but not to forget!
[āIt is. Iāve never liked wildness, itās scary
āWell, I donāt want it 24/7 but a little here and there. ā]
Wildness š„ coming from trustworthy friends is welcome, but not from any āstrangersā ā those dark-skinned, mysterious Lš ¾ļøs šØ ! Not for me, Sister!
āI agree with that assessment now. Sheās horrible to him and then he essentially destroys himself and everyone around him to seek revenge. Itās not romantic. Itās sick. ā
She has heartfelt affection for Heathcliff, since they grew up together; but she is conditioned to follos the social script of the time thus horribly hurt him. Uncouth without Agape š§” like a wolf or a wild horse, he takes revenges on his unobtainable LO, everyone around him and himself. Itās just š±!
āYes, you have. I get it intellectually. I just donāt feel it emotionally, if that makes sense.ā
Yes, it makes perfect sense. You will feel IT ā Longing free, as soon as that bloody Longing leaves your system.
Excerpts from an article that Bewitched linked on 6/9/2024:ā
The question I’m at my wit’s end. I’m a 50-year-old gay man and I’m in a happy, long-term relationship. But I’ve fallen in love with a married straight guy 10 years my junior. He’s a new colleague at work. We get on well and have struck up a companionable working relationship, but my feelings for him have become deeper – and it’s agony.
I’m not an idiot. He’s married with young children and I know nothing is going to happen. I don’t think I’d even want it to, but I just can’t stop the intensity of my feelings for him. He’s a kind, thoughtful man, which somehow makes it worse. I couldn’t bear it if he found out I was secretly harbouring lustful or amorous feelings for him.
This is not the first time I’ve done this. Over the years there have been others that I’ve secretly fallen for, so I guess it’s a bit of a pattern. The first time was when I was at school at 14. I fell in love with a friend and my feelings were so intense I couldn’t tell anyone, not even him. I couldn’t even admit I was gay at that age. This current crush feels as bad as that. I know this sounds pathetic, but I feel absolutely broken by this. I’d like us to be friends, but how do I stop feeling jealous when he talks and laughs with others? How can I stop feeling these intense feelings?
Philippa’s answer One thing you might consider is to explore the underlying reasons for why you tend to develop these intense crushes on unavailable people. It sounds like this has been a pattern for you since childhood, so understanding the roots of this behaviour could help you gain insight into your psyche. And insight can lead to healing. I’m going to suggest a few reasons that might be the cause, in case any resonate with you.
It could be that somewhere in your infancy and childhood you got confused between longing, which is agony, and love, which is bliss or at least comfortable. It sounds like you are a lifelong sufferer of intermittent limerence. Limerence is a term coined by Dorothy Tennov in 1979. It’s when otherwise healthy individuals find themselves in a monomania for another person, which they might not have expected to happen and when they recover from the experience their lives go back to normal… until the next time. The experience is distinct from simple sexual desire – it’s more obsessive.
Remember, this isn’t real love. It is possible this is a hangover from how you learned to attach and bond to others when you were a baby or young child. As you have a good
long-term relationship you must also have learned how to have healthy attachments, too. But it is as though there was someone you once wanted who you could not have, maybe a nanny or carer who left, or perhaps a neglectful parent. You might be projecting your own iridescence on to your
“love” object as though he, and all the former objects that caused you to become obsessed, aren’t just people, but gods on pedestals, and they stand in for a person from your past. Essentially, there may be unfinished business from your infancy or early childhood that you are trying to conclude in the present by longing for something unobtainable. Perhaps your psyche is saying, maybe this time I’ll win – even though your logical self knows that would be disastrous.
I noticed in my psychotherapy practice that we humans are vulnerable to obsessions and fixations when we want to distract ourselves from a deeper problem we can’t bear to think about. This could be not facing up to a bereavement in your life, or a loss likely to happen soon, or it could be that you need to feel a deeper connection with yourself and it just seems easier to ache for a deeper connection with an unobtainable other. If there is something you are not facing up to, name it and face it – it won’t be as bad as you think.
When you are able to create a narrative, it will be easier for you to separate the essential you from your obsession. You do this by observing the obsessive thoughts and feelings, explaining them to yourself, but not being them. You sound very alone with these feelings. It is understandable if you don’t want to upset your partner or friends with them, but do consider consulting a therapist. Secrecy can encourage limerence to fester rather than fade, and I believe you need to talk about this.
You are not an idiot, neither are you pathetic. Many people, men and women of every sexual orientation, suffer from limerence. It will probably fade, but more than that and with the right help, it can be managed so it loses its power over you. Recovering from limerence is a process I have been privileged to witness several times.
Iāve read Wuthering Heights several times, but I donāt think itās meant to be read as a romance. Romances are supposed to have happy endings; this is a tragedy.
Oh, and I just watched The Governess. Very well done, and fascinating.
Her Ladyship,
That’s from the Ask Philippa column on The Guardian website. I remember reading it. It’s got some good insights.
I agree with her about limerence being some kind of psychological escape.
And about the longing. People always say the same thing about limerence: It’s not love. I’ve read it over and over. But in the beginning, it can be almost impossible to tell the difference between normal interest/early infatuation feelings and longing-based limerence.
Serial,
“Iāve read Wuthering Heights several times, but I donāt think itās meant to be read as a romance. Romances are supposed to have happy endings; this is a tragedy.”
I remember watching that in a high school class, and every girl was madly in love with Laurence Olivier. Some kind of romantic ideal of some really hot guy being hyper focused on you. It’s the same ideal of the rock star.
“Oh, and I just watched The Governess. Very well done, and fascinating.”
I really liked it. I didn’t think of Tom Wilkinson as being a romantic lead, but I thought he was sexy in the movie. I could see why she had fallen for him.
People seeing Wuthering Heights as a romance reminds me of people seeing āEvery Breath You Takeā as a love song. š
Or believing the song “Emotional Rescue.” Mick Jagger ain’t coming to save you on some fine Arab charger. He can’t even find you past all the groupies who are waiting in line! š
Her Ladyship Marcia,
āAnd about the longing. People always say the same thing about limerence: Itās not love. Iāve read it over and over.ā
True that Longing (like Melancholy) is definitely NOT love. (I have to capitalize this word from now on, it always tried to escape from me). I so clearly remember(ed) (my past strong emotions) it between 4-6. I now know itās longed for Mom or Dadās time and attention since I was always in weekcare.
We canāt say a kidās longing is even Agape š§”, itās indeed agony. Thatās why I absolutely think Philippaās notion is true.
In COO, I also observed and sensed such a longing in childrenās eyes. I gradually become a āSensorā who is able to sense othersā subtle or obvious longing through their eyes.
I spotted just subtle longing in a man in his early 40s on 6/24 at the Poll site. I was carelessly thinking, āhe might be a limerent.ā On his way out, he turned back and walked to my desk asking where Manās room isā¦. Once more look at his eyes, I knew I was rightā¦ He probably sensed my detection as well.
āBut in the beginning, it can be almost impossible to tell the difference between normal interest/early infatuation feelings and longing-based limerence.ā
My longing/melancholy did not always show up (sensed) before every Glimmer took place. For me, once Glimmer hit (NO more than 3-5 seconds), the longing/melancholy disappeared immediately. What accompanied infatuation was excitement: racing mind, butterfly in the chest, loss of appetite, sleep, and concentration on routines ā forgetting what to fetch from cabinet, putting butter dish into freezer, etc.
Only in unrequited love/LE when LO did not reciprocate or played push-n-pull, that longing was pronounced loud and clearly again. The longing dynamic resembled what happened in the childhood/past, (š in my own caseāļø)
Since no LO or SO (or aged/died parent), reciprocated or not, can remove that longing or fill the hole in limerentās system, the longing continues even after LE is over and before next one hit. It MUST be limerent HIMSELF OR HERSELF, with professional or personal assistant, to remove that Longingā¼ļø
I want to tell you one evidence of my Longing-free self: I could never pronounce that ār/lā (tongue curled), sound in Spanish or Italian or Russian (tried in teenage). During 10-day Italian trip in April, I suddenly found i could pronounce that sound. I didnāt believe it.
After coming back, I tried with my pupil who often pushed me to follow his Spanish, I still CAN curl my tongue correctly, while I could NOT before April with him. thatās how much my system has relaxed ever since that nagging Longing was goneāļø
š¦,
āRomances are supposed to have happy endings; this is a tragedy.ā
Romances are far from just happy endings. First of all, they have to be twin-flamed across the Solar system, Planet rocketing, the Sun burning rays in loverās chest.
If romances worked after all sorts of (un)imaginable barriers, then all flowers bloomed eternally in all 4 seasons.
But when romances failed through stars crossed trails, the Moonbeam shattered, the Inferno opened its grinning gate, one or both lovers jumped off (or died of incurable diseases) Everestās cliffsā¦
Romances take place on either end of a balance beam. Anything in between is mediocre, not worthy to be glorified in words or musical notes.
Lady SL š¦ š,
In COO, we have our own legend, āButterfly š¦ š¦ Lovers), similar to Romeo and Juliet ā https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_Lovers?wprov=sfti1
The final ending is beautiful. Every kid and adult in COO knows about it!
Here is a beautiful Violin Concerto just for this story ā https://youtu.be/C1yfPmblWgw?feature=shared ā Butterfly Violin Concerto š
It has a lot of tones and sentiments of COO
Mademoiselle Snow,
“I now know itās longed for Mom or Dadās time and attention since I was always in weekcare.”
Yes, that’s where it all stems from. The parents!
“My longing/melancholy did not always show up (sensed) before every Glimmer took place. For me, once Glimmer hit (NO more than 3-5 seconds), the longing/melancholy disappeared immediately. What accompanied infatuation was excitement: racing mind, butterfly in the chest, loss of appetite, sleep, and concentration on routines ā forgetting what to fetch from cabinet, putting butter dish into freezer, etc.”
I had that same experience. Once the glimmer hit, my mind was totally preoccupied with the LE feelings.
“Only in unrequited love/LE when LO did not reciprocate or played push-n-pull, that longing was pronounced loud and clearly again. The longing dynamic resembled what happened in the childhood/past, (š in my own caseāļø)”
In my case, the LEs, even if requited, weren’t requited in a complete way, so there was still the longing. Not the generalized longing but a longing for the LO. I’ve written this before, but the one time I got into a full relationship with the LO … all the longing died. At least the longing for him.
“Since no LO or SO (or aged/died parent), reciprocated or not, can remove that longing or fill the hole in limerentās system, the longing continues even after LE is over”
Yes, the generalized longing is still there.
“After coming back, I tried with my pupil who often pushed me to follow his Spanish, I still CAN curl my tongue correctly, while I could NOT before April with him. thatās how much my system has relaxed ever since that nagging Longing was goneāļø”
So you’re able to be more present in your life ?
Lady Snow,
“No, he did not show up and stole my Safe code of yesterday. So I sent him to the LwL dungeon Alone. He would have a plenty of time to read our co-written novels.”
Ha! The perfect punishment for his snide and vicious comment about our novels! š
“As you ladyship sees, that Iāve tried many cultural vitamins without even leaving LwL ā Christianity, Catholicism, Crusades, Stoicism, Greek Mythology, etcā¦”
Yes, but I really meant other people. Other Westerners. My perspective is skewed. I’m strange. š
“I asked her where I slept between 4-7 years old, and how our dining table looked like, and what we did in evenings and weekends. I only remember the kitchen, stove, the closet and balcony well, nothing in relating to playing or reading bedtime stories with them.”
Well, those are pretty generic questions. Not deeply personal (which some people may have shied away from). There’s no reason she couldn’t have answered them.
“With my relatives, young or old, I asked what they like to eat, drink, and buyā¦ prices of things under the sun! š”
Yes, that’s about as deep as it gets.
“When I was stuck in my vague, nagging longing, my mind (sub)consciously constantly searched for āunknownā fillers to fill this āholeā inside me, and my focus was on myself most of the time. Iād listen to my friends, but mostly heard my own interpretations of their thoughts or sentiments or stories ā to look at their issues through my lens, but not their perspectives. I was an attentive, but ācracked/broken mirrorāto them.”
This is great insight. I’ve done the same thing. I’d listen, but I couldn’t hear the other person “beyond myself.” Beyond my own experiences or perspective. I’ve been working at being a better listener. Now, of course, rarely (if ever) does someone return the favor. But that’s another topic.
“”Personality is partially shaped by traumas, isnāt it? I had a lot more āEā of MBTI (before 6 grade) but later (after being mocked publicly) was forced to change to āIā. I feel Iām behaving with more āEā again nowadays, here and in reality.”
You mean you’re more extraverted?
“But longing might be wired in the brain through genes, I sensed much stronger longing in Mom, but rarely in Dad or Granny.”
I do think some of it’s personality.
“I canāt tell you enough how much I love this new change! I now understand what carefree really means.”
So what takes the place of the longing? If that hole is no longer there.
“Sis, we are on the same page here! Romance is just a portion of oneās life, marvelous to have, but one may have/get it, due to many factors.”
It’s important to know that not everyone wants romance. Some people are ok being on their own.
“Itās like you know all about motherās birthing pains and their whys/hows, but you canāt feel it, unless your body goes through it.”
Exactly.
“I saw it! No one else up to your post ever told me what āgardenā is allude to š! Itās a beautiful analogy ā¼ļø What did I say about your cultural vitaminsāļø”
I’m here to educate you! š
“Can words be sexual and sexyāš¤”
I’d assume so. I’d have to think about that.
“Itās lizardās šŖŗ , metaphorically has scales, able to sit on walls, bewildering Alice or anyone with Wittgensteinās verbal tools š„ š¤”
I think reference to a reptile is a good one for our MJ! š
“Weāll go ahead with our chilled šø š¹ and š± without our cleaner, heās š šŖ£ in a deep dungeon now.”
Yes! We don’t need him and his weird, low-cut pants! š
“So, you donāt think deep feeling, reflecting, contemplating is a part of living? ”
I do, but I have a tendency to be introverted and can spend too much time by myself. I have to push myself to go out and be social.
[āSometimes it feels like people who like to do acts of service do them for everyone. ā]
“Not most of COO folks, they are selective to whom to provide acts of service, they can be very calculating. I definitely donāt do it for everyone, but selected friends.”
What I meant is that acts of service are how they show care for everyone in their lives who they deem worthy of such acts … instead of really finding out what the person needs. (Not that the acts of service are necessarily invasive in the receiver’s life.)
“Totally agree with you here! I seem to have easier time to remember ā involving mental and emotional digesting, othersā words/facts/details than my own. ”
That’s actually a good quality to have. To remember what people tell you.
” Iām not looking for a glimmer in anyone, but I need a bit of glimmer to start a friendship.”
So I’m not sure what you mean. That you don’t have interest in just friendship? That without a glimmer you have no interest in meeting new people?
“but a new āLOā needs to be able to move back and forth between both files, with Glimmer took place first.”
That I get.
” Degree 3-4 Glimmer wonāt lead a guy into āLOā file, so I can try to put him in the āfriendā file. Who has time for grade 0-2 Glimmer friendship nowadays?”
Well, personally, I’d like to make some friends who have nothing to do with glimmering and romance. Just friends.
“Okay. It sounds reasonable to me now, and I WANT to reinvent myself more and fast, so the other side could never āget holdā all of me but get dizzy or confused šµāš« I have to be a highly skillful chameleon š¤!”
It’s not really being a chameleon. But “romance” on some level is about mystery, about finding out. Which is why it can be at odds with friendship, which is about understanding and knowing. Just like “lust” is about distance, about acquiring something you don’t have. Whereas love is about … well, closeness. Some of these things are at odds.
“Once truly forgiving, resentment would naturally go. Then, one is at peace even if one had to be responsible. Itās Stoic to forgive but not to forget!”
I don’t know if I’ve forgiven the parents. I just kind of gave up that we’d have a good relationship. Finally accepted that they were who they were.
“Wildness š„ coming from trustworthy friends is welcome, but not from any āstrangersā ā those dark-skinned, mysterious Lš ¾ļøs šØ ! Not for me, Sister!”
I was reading this somewhere … that sometimes people can help release the irrational part of your personality. If you’re almost always rational/sensible. You can get tired of it.
“She has heartfelt affection for Heathcliff, since they grew up together; but she is conditioned to follow the social script of the time thus horribly hurt him. ”
She pretty much dismisses him for the neighbor.
Beautiful story! I wonder if it has any basis in fact? (I once read that Romeo and Juliet was inspired by something that had actually happened.)
Your Ladyship,
Gosh, why is LwL so quiet tonightā¦ Am I only š» hereā
āHa! The perfect punishment for his snide and vicious comment about our novels! ā
Oh, more than just reading our novels, your Ladyship: he is secretly doing pushups 1000 times a day in order to fit into those skinny š; he heard LFās š£ calling but could respond; he is ramming his plastic helmet onto the walls, but no crackingā¦. Poor, poor š¦ šŖ£ š¦āļø
āYes, but I really meant other people. Other Westerners. My perspective is skewed. Iām strange. ā
But itās posters here who have brought those cultural vitamins, right? Arenāt their perspective shinned through their posts? š
āWell, those are pretty generic questions. Not deeply personal (which some people may have shied away from). Thereās no reason she couldnāt have answered them.
Talking with Mom about my personal stuff? Thatās like (a COO idiom) āplaying the lute to a cowā ā talking to a brick wall! I just want to get some memories back, and donāt know why she couldnāt answer them. She doesnāt know that I have some memory loss.
āIāve been working at being a better listener. Now, of course, rarely (if ever) does someone return the favor. But thatās another topic.
We can only manage what we do and how to do them; how others return the favor is beyond our control. So I donāt even expect anything. Thatās my sense of āgivingā without ātakingā. If they do the same in return, then Iād be over joyed.
āYou mean youāre more extraverted? ā
Yes, I am becoming more extravertedā¦. Moreover, I want to crack more jokes š¤, and laugh at my own first before I try them out with you here š š¤
[āBut longing might be wired in the brain through genes,
I do think some of its personality. ā]
Then can I ask your Ladyship: how personality is formed ā by what and by whom? Do they stay the same as time passes, as a person grows and evolves? Do they suddenly change due to some unexpected dramatic or traumatic eventsā
āSo what takes the place of the longing? If that hole is no longer there. ā
Contentment š, serenity ā®ļø , giggles š¤ , laughs š, wishes to share and give what I have (especially intangibles)
[āSis, we are on the same page here! Romance is just a portion of oneās life, marvelous to have, but one may NOT have/get it, due to many factors.ā
Itās important to know that not everyone wants romance. Some people are ok being on their own. ]
I forgot the word āNOTā in my previous post. Absolutely fine on their own without romanceā¼ļø Also, some people are unlucky to get their wished romance, which is also fine if they can find a peace living with it. Cāest moi.
āIām here to educate you! ā
Definitely In some waysā¼ļøā¦
[āCan words be sexual and sexyāāØIād assume so. Iād have to think about that. ]
What do you think of pornographic or erotic literature? Is its words sexual or sexy? Or is it the readersā imagination and depiction of words that mean more?
āI think reference to a reptile is a good one for our MJ! ā
A reptile š¦ would be more fitting if MJ šŖ£ š¦ could dry up all his š. I think your ladyshipās guidance is helping achieve such a goal ā his soft-shell is hardening fast nowadays, and he could even crack marvelous jokes š š ā¦ In the near future, he could be a flying š¦ āIn Search of the Lost Grandpa š²ā.
āYes! We donāt need him and his weird, low-cut pants! ā
Once his shell is totally hardened, heād have no need for those low-cut pants. Heād soar high with limerence-free šŖ½šŖ½āļøMJ šŖ£ š¦ , go, go, go! šŖšŖ
āI do, but I have a tendency to be introverted and can spend too much time by myself. I have to push myself to go out and be social. ā
Thatās important if you want to make more friends or meet up potential dates in social settings. My reading, writing, movie watching, exercising, practicing piano, occasional friends gathering entertain/fulfill me most of the time, so I have little incentive or energy to socialize outside of my work or home.
āWhat I meant is that acts of service are how they show care for everyone in their lives who they deem worthy of such acts ā¦ instead of really finding out what the person needs. (Not that the acts of service are necessarily invasive in the receiverās life.)ā
Gotcha! I think people should be more direct and open in communications when it comes to what they want to get or to give among close friends. If the other side is unable to give or get, thatās fine. Just donāt make assumption, which is a form of ignorance, and can even cause detriments.
āThatās actually a good quality to have. To remember what people tell you. ā
I can remember more if they arose my curiosityā¦ But I often forgot what I told others or did for others. In our reunion last summer, some of old classmates told me I had said or done this or that, I blinked my eyesš®. I tended to remember only my very strong sentiments or reactive emotions in the pastā¦.
āSo Iām not sure what you mean. That you donāt have interest in just friendship? That without a glimmer you have no interest in meeting new people?ā
Letās forget about the word āglimmerā which confuses the matter. I just meant a certain amount of attraction ā a riendship BEAM. You know none of us can just be a friend to everyone, in reality or online. Like you met a woman friend not long ago, after some talks, you just felt attracted to her as a friend. I need that Beam to further invest my time and energy for a potential lasting friendship.
āWell, personally, Iād like to make some friends who have nothing to do with glimmering and romance. Just friends. ā
To me, as long as they have a certain amount of beam, Iāll try to make friends with them. Romance is not necessarily involved nor limited.
āItās not really being a chameleon. ā
Itās an exaggeration, which means we all change and evolve, whether we want or not. Youāve witnessed my GREAT changes within the past two years here.
āBut āromanceā on some level is about mystery, about finding out. ā
Not quite agree with you here, Sis, although my Glimmer has always landed on a stranger. But romance is further away from initial Glimmer.
Which is why it can be at odds with friendship, which is about understanding and knowing.
If that is romance, ābe at adds with friendshipā, then I do NOT want itā¼ļø
āJust like ālustā is about distance, about acquiring something you donāt have. ā
Are you saying each of us does not have ālustā to give or does not feel sexual? That lust only comes from ādistanceā, from an opposite sex ā(letās just limited our discussion to heterosexual men and women for now). What is exact definition of ālustā in this culture?
āWhereas love is about ā¦ well, closeness. Some of these things are at odds.ā
Yes, I desire Love, not just Eros! I never wanted Eros alone in my entire lifeā¦ Eros should be cultivated and enriched with other forms of love (in Greek terminology) in a package.
āI donāt know if Iāve forgiven the parents. I just kind of gave up that weād have a good relationship. Finally accepted that they were who they were. ā
We can forgiven our parents or others without having any relationship with them. Forgiveness is about bringing peace WITHIN ourselves. Yes, acceptance is the key for our serenity and contentment ā acceptance of other people, situations, and natureās phenomena.
āI was reading this somewhere ā¦ that sometimes people can help release the irrational part of your personality. ā
Is that what I said (in my previous post) about shrinks or friends as our assistance, with or without our expectations? But Iād like to hear some examples if you have them.
āIf youāre almost always rational/sensible. You can get tired of it.ā
š! I can be highly irrational, only on not-so-risky matters, e.g. being possibly rubbed, raped, geologically lost, etc. But in general, Easterners do not get easily ārestlessā or āboredā as much as Westerners, based on my limited observation. The cultural script bears a great deal of responsibility for that!
āØāIāve written this before, but the one time I got into a full relationship with the LO ā¦ all the longing died. At least the longing for him. ā
Understand. That would be my case with LO4/xSO.
āYes, the generalized longing is still there. ā
Thatās what I meant: LE canāt remove generalized longing. But my generalized longing was moved, and immediately extinguished the residual LE ember, as I talked about it in April.
āSo youāre able to be more present in your life ?ā
š Absolutely! Anything in the past no longer bothers me much, and Iām not anxiously looking forward to the future, even tomorrow. Here and Now is what Iām fully engaged ā talking with you in a replying post, Lady Marcia š šāļø
“Iām turned off by the whole thing. Too many hours of making conversation and trying to invest ā¦ for what? All of that takes a lot of effort. So Iām right back where I started”
Marcia
You seem frustrated lately Queenie. Perhaps you need a cup of coffee to drink with me down in this dungeon you and Ol Girl put me in. C’mon, let me be your Daddy tonight. I won’t even wear skinny jeans. (Whoever thought I could is nuts š¤£)
“Ha! The perfect punishment for his snide and vicious comment about our novels!”
They are man.. I wish I had time to write like that. And what’s with all the Ladyship crap?? All this reverence and worshipping each other. Puhleeeese.. š
“I think reference to a reptile is a good one for our MJ!”
Now you think I’m a snake. Is there no end to this?? š
Typo: āhe heard LFās š£ calling but could NOT respond;ā.
Those damned āNotā always escaped me! š
MJ šŖ£ š§,
āNow you think Iām a snake. Is there no end to this?? šā
No, Youāre NOT š ; Sir LaR is a š, based on Her Ladyship !
Her ladyship and I have agreed that youāre a lizard with still soft-shell. You can fly with šŖ½ šŖ½ only when you are TOTALLY free from your obsession with š„ LO or š„ LFā¼ļø
You have a great mission waiting for youā¦š š š
Who is ā Ol Girlā āš You want to stay in the dungeon infinitely ā¾ļøā
Miss Snow,
“Gosh, why is LwL so quiet tonightā¦ Am I only š» hereā”
It’s been quiet. All the troublemakers are away! š
“he heard LFās š£ calling but could respond; he is ramming his plastic helmet onto the walls, but no crackingā¦. ”
No cracking because there’s nothing to crack! š
“But itās posters here who have brought those cultural vitamins, right? Arenāt their perspective shinned through their posts? š”
Most definitely.
“Talking with Mom about my personal stuff? Thatās like (a COO idiom) āplaying the lute to a cowā ā talking to a brick wall!”
I wasn’t clear. I was thinking I once asked a relative very basic questions about the family and I was greeted with this incredulous response, as if I was asking deeply personal questions, which I wasn’t. It was a ridiculous response. So that’s what I meant. You weren’t asking your mother really personal questions.
“I just want to get some memories back, and donāt know why she couldnāt answer them. She doesnāt know that I have some memory loss.”
She should have answered your questions.
“We can only manage what we do and how to do them; how others return the favor is beyond our control. So I donāt even expect anything. ”
I don’t necessarily expect it but if the other person makes no effort to listen to me or seem at all interested in me (never asking questions), I give up on interacting with them. I’m not a therapist. It can’t all be one-sided. š The relationship should have some give and take.
“Yes, I am becoming more extravertedā¦. Moreover, I want to crack more jokes š¤, and laugh at my own first before I try them out with you here š š¤”
You can try them out here! š
“Then can I ask your Ladyship: how personality is formed ā by what and by whom?”
I’d say part of it’s innate. Little babies have personalities. But of course one’s upbringing and one’s experiences shape personality.
“Do they stay the same as time passes, as a person grows and evolves? ”
If a person grows and evolves. Yes. š
“Do they suddenly change due to some unexpected dramatic or traumatic eventsā”
I’d say they can, yes.
“Contentment š, serenity ā®ļø , giggles š¤ , laughs š, wishes to share and give what I have (especially intangibles)”
Those are all good things!
“Also, some people are unlucky to get their wished romance, which is also fine if they can find a peace living with it. Cāest moi.”
Not sure what you mean. How would they be unlucky to find their wished romance?
“What do you think of pornographic or erotic literature? Is its words sexual or sexy? Or is it the readersā imagination and depiction of words that mean more?”
I don’t read literature that is specifically pornographic or erotic. I have read two classics that were thought of as having elements of both (depending on who you talk to) — “Lady Chatterly’s Lover and Tropic of Cancer. I don’t think either was particularly sexy. But that’s me.
“his soft-shell is hardening fast nowadays, and he could even crack marvelous jokes š š ā¦ ”
We need to toughen him up! š
“Once his shell is totally hardened, heād have no need for those low-cut pants. ”
He has no need for them now! The only men who should be wearing low-cut pants are Chippendales dancers … and that’s when they’re on stage! š
“My reading, writing, movie watching, exercising, practicing piano, occasional friends gathering entertain/fulfill me most of the time, so I have little incentive or energy to socialize outside of my work or home.”
Different people have different socialization needs.
“Gotcha! I think people should be more direct and open in communications when it comes to what they want to get or to give among close friends. ”
I don’t think I’ve ever had that kind of conversation with a close friend.
“I can remember more if they arose my curiosityā¦”
I have to be honest: I don’t really remember what people tell me unless I think we’re going to be close or are close. I’ll listen in the moment and I’ll respond but I’m not filing away the info. I mean, with an acquaintance or co-worker.
“Letās forget about the word āglimmerā which confuses the matter. I just meant a certain amount of attraction ā a friendship BEAM. You know none of us can just be a friend to everyone, in reality or online. Like you met a woman friend not long ago, after some talks, you just felt attracted to her as a friend. I need that Beam to further invest my time and energy for a potential lasting friendship.”
I understand. That new friend … I liked her right away. We clicked as people.
“although my Glimmer has always landed on a stranger. But romance is further away from initial Glimmer.”
Not sure what you mean.
“If that is romance, ābe at odds with friendshipā, then I do NOT want itā¼ļø”
They’re two different motivations.
“Are you saying each of us does not have ālustā to give or does not feel sexual?”
No
“That lust only comes from ādistanceā, from an opposite sex ā”
Well, that lust is based on trying to acquire something. Hard to lust after something on the same level if you have it.
“Yes, I desire Love, not just Eros! I never wanted Eros alone in my entire lifeā¦ Eros should be cultivated and enriched with other forms of love (in Greek terminology) in a package.”
I think we’ve talked about this before. It’s Esther Perel’s view. Too much closeness and lust can die. How do you continue to want what you already have?
“We can forgiven our parents or others without having any relationship with them. ”
That’s true.
“Is that what I said (in my previous post) about shrinks or friends as our assistance, with or without our expectations? But Iād like to hear some examples if you have them.”
No, I wasn’t referring to having friends without expectations. I was watching a video on the Jeff Bezos wedding. Lauren Sanchez has had so much plastic surgery and is always kind of popping out of her dresses. He’s very rational, but maybe she appeals to the irrational side of him.
“But in general, Easterners do not get easily ārestlessā or āboredā as much as Westerners, based on my limited observation. The cultural script bears a great deal of responsibility for that!”
That’s true. We are a restless bunch.
Lady Marcia,
āItās been quiet. All the troublemakers are away!
Perhaps those ātroublemakersā have figured out that their naughty behaviors did not and could not truly take away their LE pains? Letās have some compassion for them. šŖ·
āYou werenāt asking your mother really personal questions.ā
No, I was not. I was neither interested, nor she would tell me more facts about our past interactions. We had too little affectionate connection for me to want to know who she was/is. As I mentioned before, there was little deep talking components in COO culture, especially across generations. Weāre supposed to be filial and respectful, not equal with our elder generations. My Granny was exceptional, willing to tell me everything I asked.
āShe should have answered your questions. ā
I did/do not understand why she avoided answering my simple factual questions. She was habitually defensive, as if you were going to charge her for misconducts, when you asked her questions.
āI donāt necessarily expect it but if the other person makes no effort to listen to me or seem at all interested in me (never asking questions), I give up on interacting with them. Iām not a therapist. It canāt all be one-sided. The relationship should have some give and some take. ā
Of course, I would too. Any kind of relationship MUST have some give and take in order to survive or thrive. š±
Most friends I interacted with were good enough listeners, but a lot of them were a introvert, unable to express their thoughts and sentiments well; some expected me to understand them out of my guesses or assumptions. Then misinterpretations occurred. š
Nowadays as a mixture of both the East and West, I got double expectations and assumptions š. Even if I know a little bit of both sides, it doesnāt mean I always support their stands. Then, I am thought to be a ābetrayerā to COO, and an ever outsider to the West.
āYou can try them out here! ā
I feel like that my E, which was buried in the primary school began to emerge after my Longing was gone. I also noticed that my moods overall began to resemble Granny and Dad more, easy going with everything, although I have specific stuff to worry about in my plate. But I just canāt be bothered. There is COO idiom: The road will appear when the cart gets to the mountain.” ā “We’ll cross that bridge when we come to it.”
āIād say part of itās innate. Little babies have personalities. But of course oneās upbringing and oneās experiences shape personality. ā
In a less tolerant culture or a more rigid ideological /religious system, little babiesā personalities could be altered or even wiped out before they could remember (there was/is āterrible twoā period acknowledged over there) . In COO, the political system reshaped almost 99% of original personalities, Iām convinced it. Itās rare to see complex individuality in majority peopleās eyes.
[āContentment š, serenity ā®ļø , giggles š¤ , laughs š , wishes to share and give what I have (especially intangibles)āāØThose are all good things! ]
When your deep, general longing is gone, youāll have them, Iām š certain! Have a faith, Lady Marcia š šāļø
āNot sure what you mean. How would they be unlucky to find their wished romance? ā
First they may never encounter that Glimmer; then if they did, personality may not match. Third, if the other side wishes romance separates from friendship, but I wish friendship follow romance or wonāt even get into romance without some level of friendship; then I would be unlucky, especially if I like the other side great deal.
āI donāt read literature that is specifically pornographic or erotic. ā
Pornography is straightly BORING to me. Erotic literature has stories and poetry; its words and allusion can be highly sexual or sexy or funny š . Check out āEroticaā An Illustrated Anthology of Sexual Art and Literature ā a collection of many short erotic pieces with drawings and painting across the world through several centuries.
āI have read two classics that were thought of as having elements of both (depending on who you talk to) ā āLady Chatterlyās Lover and Tropic of Cancer. I donāt think either was particularly sexy. But thatās me. ā
I have read both. āLady Chatterlyās loverā is neither pornography nor erotic, itās a piece of classical literature. āTropic of Cancerā is not strictly erotic, either. I donāt like Henry Millerās roughness in dealing with his women.
āWe need to toughen him š¦ up! ā
Yes, we DO!
āLife is a tragedy to those who feel and a comedy to those who think.ā ā MoliĆØreā
I finally experienced what the quote meansā¦ I laughed so much lately that my old LE pains were not only lost, but āforgottenā š§. Using logical mind could/would reduce emotional pains and tears, even if some people are neurally wired having easier and more tender or sad tears.
āHe has no need for them now! The only men who should be wearing low-cut pants are Chippendales dancers ā¦ and thatās when theyāre on stage! ā
š£ MJ š§: do you look like one of Chippendales dancers? Or are you working towards that aim? LwL stage is here for you, you knowā¦ š
āDifferent people have different socialization needs.ā
š! With such diverse socialization needs, or the same needs in different degrees, the world becomes more colorful.
[āGotcha! I think people should be more direct and open in communications when it comes to what they want to get or to give among close friends. āāØI donāt think Iāve ever had that kind of conversation with a close friend.]
I had some with girlfriends. In theory, such an open communications could be achieved and should be!
āI have to be honest: I donāt really remember what people tell me unless I think weāre going to be close or are close. Iāll listen in the moment and Iāll respond but Iām not filing away the info. I mean, with an acquaintance or co-worker. ā
Iām genuinely curious about people and habitually observant (maybe with a writerās šļø?), so I could remember whatever remarkable things people said to me; the word āremarkableā is the key here. Mediocre or factual stuff could only be remembered if they were my friends.
āI understand. That new friend ā¦ I liked her right away. We clicked as people. ā
That āclickā is what I call āfriendship beamā, not a real Glimmer, or perhaps a glimmer in degree 1-2 if the other side is a man.
[āalthough my Glimmer has always landed on a stranger. But romance is further away from initial Glimmer.āāØNot sure what you mean. ]
From Glimmer to interaction/romance takes some time.
[āIf that is romance, ābe at odds with friendshipā, then I do NOT want it
Theyāre two different motivations. ]
Not in COO. I suspect thatās the cultural script on this side of the world, highly affected by Romanticism.
āWell, that lust is based on trying to acquire something. Hard to lust after something on the same level if you have it. ā
I see. The definition of ālustā here is equivalent of ādesireā; one desires what one does not have. Then I have to say ālustā in the West is much higher and more intense than the East, where Buddhism has more spiritual influence. Buddhistic traditions is all about getting rid of insatiable desires, or live in PEACE with them ā not changing but watching them.
āI think weāve talked about this before. Itās Esther Perelās view. Too much closeness and lust can die. How do you continue to want what you already have? ā
Esther Parelās view may work in sexual desire, and I think, hypothetically, one or both sides can create some ādistanceā or just keep āreinventingā oneself. You donāt know what Iām going to say in my next reply, and even myself does NOT know. My thoughts fly all over places as Iām writing, theyāre never fixed. The similar dynamic should be in all sorts of relationships.
Now Perelās view, in other aspects of life, is completely opposite to the philosophy I grew up. āHappiness lies in contentment.ā Or āWealth consists not in having possessions, but in having few wants.ā The key to happiness, as I have experienced myself uncountable times, is to learn how to ENJOY what I already have, not to focus on what I lack, which I still wish to have.
To ācontinue to wantā in Eros would be taken care by pair-bond drive, not by insatiable wants, desires, and lust for novelty and freshness ā itās hungry ghost who can never be fed enough! Thatās one root of unhappiness in any culture, particularly here in LwL.
āNo, I wasnāt referring to having friends without expectations. I was watching a video on the Jeff Bezos wedding. Lauren Sanchez has had so much plastic surgery and is always kind of popping out of her dresses. Heās very rational, but maybe she appeals to the irrational side of him. ā
I didnāt read any of it, only heard about their news a week beforehand because Venetians complained about the special privileges he would receive.
Now out of Longing, I know a relationship should NOT be any kind of need(s) to be met/made up, for one side or both. Itās dual or trio dance, not leaning on each other.
āThatās true. We are a restless bunch.ā
Youāve just summarized one essence of the Western lifestyle! I feel sorry/sympathetic for such a phenomenonāļø Life is too short, to live in such restlessness is a tragedyāļø
Iāve kept subconsciously omitting/skipping word āNOTā, or āNOā, no matter how loud it sounded in my head when I was composing my sentences, you see the cultural imprint in the subconscious level?
ā (there was/is NO āterrible twoā period acknowledged over there) ā. Parents would discipline kids of twos/threes, so they have little chance to become āterrible.āā¦
āTo live in Peace with them (desires/lusts)ā not to chasing but watching themā.
Itās very, very hardā¦. But in the East, books, media, almost all corners of the society encourage and praise such āself-controlā under the rightful name ā The lack of self-control leads to oneās self-destruction.
The rate of illicit drug and alcohol abuses is unbelievable low. However I heard that STD has been on riseā¦ The government is cracking down on Hollywoodās influenceā¦
Miss Snow,
“Itās very, very hardā¦. But in the East, books, media, almost all corners of the society encourage and praise such āself-controlā under the rightful name ā The lack of self-control leads to oneās self-destruction.”
Well, I think I wanted there to be enough temptation that I would lose control. Or do something stupid. Or be so interested, I’d overlook the obvious ridiculousness of the situation (LO-lite).
But with these online guys, there just isn’t. I’m not going to do something dumb because there isn’t enough incentive. It’s more like your ego getting bruised that you don’t hear from him again than it is regretting not going home with him when you had the chance.
Lady Marcia,
Please allow me to answer your post from psychological or Stoic point of view, no moral judgments at all.
āWell, I think I wanted there to be enough temptation that I would lose control. ā
There is gigantic pair-bonding temptation in all cultures, and most COO folks are well trained not toālose controlā even in this ādeadlyā one. So the wish to willingly ālose controlā is puzzling. Where do you think the root of such a wish/desire comes fromā
Trust me, I understand that temptation pull, Iāve been in that situation myself during my last LE (as I told you last year). But at last I resisted the pull and feel proud and strong about my willpower.
āOr do something stupid. Or be so interested, Iād overlook the obvious ridiculousness of the situation (LO-lite).ā
Itās not āridiculousness of the situationā, but its aftermath. As youāve experienced, for a couple of hours ride to the Moon, how many more hours and even days afterwards you lived in anxiety attacks? A Stoic mind would have deeply asked: Is it worth this much suffering for something that is utterly futile?? One might also ask oneself, āWHY do I want to ādo something stupid? WHY āWHY āWHYāā
If one is willing to be a PA side-chick and able not to suffer the following desires, waiting anxieties, and uncertainties then by all means go for it. (Watch āSimple Passion, youād undrrstand the protagonistās destructive FALL). But I think you want the other side to give you his EA, then question would be: would he truly give it (with his partner around)? āDoes he just want a PPAā purely physical affair, for his own entertainmentā Do I want to be his amusing, sexy toyāā
āBut with these online guys, there just isnāt. Iām not going to do something dumb because there isnāt enough incentive. Itās more like your ego getting bruised that you donāt hear from him again than it is regretting not going home with him when you had the chance.ā
I never desired to go home with a killer stranger if God sent me one for free; 99.99% COO girls/women would never dream of doing such a thing. After tasted what it was like to deal with app. men, Iām permanently retired from the online dating, period!
I do not have any āprojectā to find romance in my purposeful living; but will not push it away if I stumble upon a workable oneāļø š
Snow,
My anxiety is much, much better. I don’t regret what happened with LO-lite. I think I would have regretted turning it down. I don’t want to open that door again if it’s just going to be entertainment. But it would have been the same with the guy I went out with. It doesn’t really matter that one is available and one isn’t. It’s the same job. Same offer. It’s not really any different.
Lady Marcia,
āMy anxiety is much, much better.ā
Iām so glad to hear that your anxiety has gone away a lot! š¤ that kind of anxiety is just awfulāļø
āI donāt regret what happened with LO-lite. I think I would have regretted turning it down. I donāt want to open that door again if itās just going to be entertainment. ā
If you kept going, youād end up like Annie Ernaux in āSimple Passionā, that kind of uncertain dynamic is very destructive to anyoneās psyche.
āBut it would have been the same with the guy I went out with. It doesnāt really matter that one is available and one isnāt. Itās the same job. Same offer. Itās not really any different.ā
I would argue itās a bit different. In the former case, itās futile and oneād feel being played at as an object without any future. In the latter when a date is still available, you still have some a possibility for a future connection, if two of you hit well.
āItās the same jobā for you to make similar efforts, but natures of two cases do differ.
Snow,
“I would argue itās a bit different. In the former case, itās futile and oneād feel being played at as an object without any future. In the latter when a date is still available, you still have some a possibility for a future connection, if two of you hit well.”
No. Not if on the date the person made fairly clear sex was on the table and you didn’t do it and then the person stops contacting you. So that was the offer. It’s essentially a hook up/fwb. I use the terms “friends” with benefits loosely. It’s no different than some part-time situation with someone who’s not available. It’s essentially the same offer.
Lady Marcia,
Iām sorry that youāve encountered a bad luck againā¦ š
āNo. Not if on the date the person made fairly clear sex was on the table and you didnāt do it and then the person stops contacting you. So that was the offer. Itās essentially a hook up/fwb. I use the terms āfriendsā with benefits loosely. ā
Unfortunately, thatās a goal a lot of men/women, not all of them, are using dating apps to achieve. Trifles is lucky to find her MD, who seems not to be one of those hookup/fwb men.
āItās no different than some part-time situation with someone whoās not available. Itās essentially the same offer.ā
I agree with you now. I wish I could have heard of such insight much earlier so I could come out of my LE much sooner! Still, with every ounce of willpower I had, I did not fall into part-time fwb with ETā¦ . Now, Iām even free of the Longing.
Iāve been watching āSense and Sensibilityā BBC 2008 mini series (I saw other version and film, too), and āMansfield Parkāā¦ Iām Jane Austenās fan, after allā¦
Any plans for tomorrow? I may go to see fireworks š with two gfs, but may change my mind. Iām feeling so cozy in pajamas at home watching BBC dramas or documentaries.
Happy July 4th, Lady Marcia! š
Snow,
“Letās have some compassion for them. šŖ·”
Nah. š
āWe had too little affectionate connection for me to want to know who she was/is.”
I understand. I did try to get to know a couple of relatives better as people, but it was like talking to the wall. I gave up.
“Weāre supposed to be filial and respectful, not equal with our elder generations.”
It’s not so much trying to be equals as it is trying to get to know them beyond the roles they play in your life.
“She was habitually defensive, as if you were going to charge her for misconducts, when you asked her questions.”
Well, that’s why. She interpreted (wrongly) that your questions were coming with accusations. So she KNOWS she wasn’t a good parent.
“In a less tolerant culture or a more rigid ideological /religious system, little babiesā personalities could be altered or even wiped out before they could remember (there was/is āterrible twoā period acknowledged over there) . In COO, the political system reshaped almost 99% of original personalities, Iām convinced it. ”
That’s too bad it squelched personality.
“Check out āEroticaā An Illustrated Anthology of Sexual Art and Literature ā a collection of many short erotic pieces with drawings and painting across the world through several centuries.”
I will look into it. š
“āTropic of Cancerā is not strictly erotic, either. I donāt like Henry Millerās roughness in dealing with his women.”
I read Anais Nin’s journals. She had an affair with him, and he wasn’t rough in person with her. I think he even said that to her after they first had sex. ‘”You expected someone rougher.” She had read his writing.
[āWe need to toughen him š¦ up! ā]
“Yes, we DO!”
Not my job. š
“š! With such diverse socialization needs, or the same needs in different degrees, the world becomes more colorful.”
To an extent, but I have made friends with people who rarely if ever want to get together or cancel when we have plans. I eventually give up.
“I had some with girlfriends. In theory, such an open communications could be achieved and should be!”
I don’t think I’ve ever had anyone ask me, “What do you need?” I mean, they might ask, “Do you need anything?” if I’m sick, for example. But that’s an offer of an act of service. No one has ever asked, “What kind of support do you need?”
“Iām genuinely curious about people and habitually observant (maybe with a writerās šļø?), so I could remember whatever remarkable things people said to me; the word āremarkableā is the key here. Mediocre or factual stuff could only be remembered if they were my friends.”
I’ll remember peoples’ general stories about their lives but I don’t exert the effort to remember the details. We’re not close enough for me to do that.
“That āclickā is what I call āfriendship beamā, not a real Glimmer, or perhaps a glimmer in degree 1-2 if the other side is a man.”
I agree. We’ll use “friendship beam.” That being said, I like her but I can’t see becoming close. Not enough of an emotional connection.
“From Glimmer to interaction/romance takes some time.”
I don’t think it has to. Even if you’re trying to establish a friendship first, you can start that right away.
“Not in COO. I suspect thatās the cultural script on this side of the world, highly affected by Romanticism.”
I am trying to slow things down and get to know men before anything physical happens. The issue then becomes … does the attraction diminish? Because you know more. You can’t project as much! HA HA HA (That’s a laugh of futility.)
“I see. The definition of ālustā here is equivalent of ādesireā; one desires what one does not have. Then I have to say ālustā in the West is much higher and more intense than the East, where Buddhism has more spiritual influence. Buddhistic traditions is all about getting rid of insatiable desires, or live in PEACE with them ā not changing but watching them.”
Why would you want to get rid of it? There’s nothing like it and it doesn’t last, so ride the train while you can.
“Esther Parelās view may work in sexual desire, and I think, hypothetically, one or both sides can create some ādistanceā or just keep āreinventingā oneself.”
That’s true. Or just don’t spend every waking minute together. Have some outside activities/friends. I can’t miss you if you never go away. š
” The key to happiness, as I have experienced myself uncountable times, is to learn how to ENJOY what I already have, not to focus on what I lack, which I still wish to have.”
It’s the Sheryl Crowe song. “It’s not having what you want. It’s wanting what you’ve got.”
“To ācontinue to wantā in Eros would be taken care by pair-bond drive, not by insatiable wants, desires, and lust for novelty and freshness ā itās hungry ghost who can never be fed enough! Thatās one root of unhappiness in any culture, particularly here in LwL.”
Exactly. That’s the root cause of limerence. A desire for the new. For the unknown. Even if two people have been friends for a while, they’re not known to each other romantically.
“I didnāt read any of it, only heard about their news a week beforehand because Venetians complained about the special privileges he would receive.”
It was disgusting. Such an ostentatious display of wealth when so many people are suffering.
“Now out of Longing, I know a relationship should NOT be any kind of need(s) to be met/made up, for one side or both. Itās dual or trio dance, not leaning on each other.”
I wasn’t talking about that. I’m saying … on paper, they don’t make sense. She’s, frankly, a little tacky. She looks like an ex-dancer. But there must be a part of him that likes that. She’s drawing out another side of him.
“Youāve just summarized one essence of the Western lifestyle! I feel sorry/sympathetic for such a phenomenonāļø Life is too short, to live in such restlessness is a tragedyāļø”
I don’t know that a person can ever completely get rid of a feeling of restlessness. I mean, it depends on the person and to what degree, but there’s always some level of an internal battle between security and novelty, between safety and risk.
“Iāve been watching āSense and Sensibilityā BBC 2008 mini series (I saw other version and film, too), and āMansfield Parkāā¦ Iām Jane Austenās fan, after allā¦ ”
*squee* You got my attention there. š I LOVE Sense and Sensibility–the book, the 1995 movie, and I probably loved the miniseries as well but it’s been a while since I saw it. š Is it the Mansfield Park with Billie Piper? (I’ve read all the books at least a few times, plus the juvenilia, and yes, I watched Sanditon. š )
Snow,
“Iām sorry that youāve encountered a bad luck againā¦ š”
It’s all sketch.
“I agree with you now. I wish I could have heard of such insight much earlier so I could come out of my LE much sooner! Still, with every ounce of willpower I had, I did not fall into part-time fwb with ETā¦ .”
I don’t know that I think every affair is devoid of actual real feeling. However, it’s of course a very limited type of relationship. I don’t have stats here, but, yes, I’d say a good many of them are sketch.
“Iāve been watching āSense and Sensibilityā BBC 2008 mini series (I saw other version and film, too)”
I don’t care for the mini series. I like the movie quite a bit.
“, and āMansfield Parkāā¦ Iām Jane Austenās fan, after allā¦”
The 1999 movie? The lead actress, Frances O’Connor, is in a 2000 version of Madame Bovary. Greg Wise, who played Willoughby in the movie version of Sense and Sensibility, plays one of her lovers. He’s luscious in both. He’s not your type, but he’s very good at playing the rogue.
“Any plans for tomorrow? I may go to see fireworks š with two gfs, but may change my mind.”
You should go. I’m one of those boring people who has to work.
SL š š¦, Marcia š š ,
Literally there are hundreds of film adoptions of Jane Austenās works throughout decades, and I watched different versions of her each work. As mentioned before, I could not remember or bothered with names of actors or actresses, but only focused on the story lines their acting.
In general, I enjoy BBC mini series, some movie versions are great but just appetite teasing and cut too many juicy details and lines. Iām from a much slower-paced cultureā¦ and hate doing or watching anything in speed.
You guys are providing me some actorsā names whose other work I actually already saw. Some I liked, some were not my cup of tea.
SJ:
I havenāt watched Sanditon. I saw Billie Piper in different movies, sheās bit of American cowgirl to me. Iām rewatching Austenās works (very soothing to me) and any work related to her ā the movie āMiss Austen Regretsā (saw 2 times), BBC mini series āLost in Austenā (2 times), about a modern girl who switched the position with Lizzie (teleported) and what happened to her ā itās very imaginative, clever and fun. She ānaivelyā forced every character in āPride and Prejudiceā and its plots to alter someā¦. If you have time, give it a go.
Marcia:
I saw Frances OāConnor (and other actresses) leading in Madame Bovary. Youāre right that Greg Wise is not my cup of tea, I couldnāt trust the rough characters he played.
āItās all sketch.ā
What does it culturally mean āItās all sketchā or ātheyāre sketchā?
āI donāt know that I think every affair is devoid of actual real feeling. However, itās of course a very limited type of relationship. I donāt have stats here, but, yes, Iād say a good many of them are sketch.ā
Some memorable affairs, based on books/movies, seem to have involved really feeling; I think thatās authorsā wishes or loosely based on Limerent facts. I want to trust a high stats on this. But again, itās limited, possibly causing one side waiting/wondering agony or feeling habitual incomplete. But again, there were millions of ācontentā mistresses (w/o their āpoorā children) throughout the history, who cared when they lived or died?
The most important is how WE, each of US, feel āhere and now.ā I was so neglected in childhood that I donāt want something limited or partial in relationships, that would reenact again the strong sense of dependency, longing and lonelinessā¦ from my childhood! Either all or nothingā¦ NO āHalf beingsā in doing or relating. It would be degrading oneās individuality and a sense of WHOLENESS.
āYou should go. Iām one of those boring people who has to work.ā
You must be working at a place that canāt be shut down during any holidays, like some of media. Poor, poor you! š«
Happy July 4th to both of you, Lady š š¦ and Lady š š« !
Thanks, happy fourth to you, too!
Both of those series are in my Britbox subscription, yay! I put them on my watchlist. š
MJ,
“You seem frustrated lately Queenie. Perhaps you need a cup of coffee to drink with me down in this dungeon you and Ol Girl put me in. Cāmon, let me be your Daddy tonight. ”
Don’t call her Ladyship “Ol Girl.”
And no, I’m good. I’m staying away from your side for a while.
“And whatās with all the Ladyship crap?? All this reverence and worshipping each other. Puhleeeese.. š”
It’s a respect in our friendship. And a little fun. We’re having fun! Something you wouldn’t understand with your lizard brain! And these messages aren’t to you! You can keep your bulging, prying eyes off of them! š
Her Ladyship and Sir Lizard,
[āNow you think Iām a snake. Is there no end to this?? šā]
[No, Youāre NOT š ; Sir LaR is a š, based on Her Ladyship !]
“Her ladyship and I have agreed that youāre a lizard with still soft-shell. You can fly with šŖ½ šŖ½ only when you are TOTALLY free from your obsession with š„ LO or š„ LFā¼ļø”
Well said!
“Who is ā Ol Girlā āš You want to stay in the dungeon infinitely ā¾ļøā”
I agree with you, Her Ladyship! He is staying in the dungeon!
Lady SL š¦ š,
āBeautiful story! I wonder if it has any basis in fact? (I once read that Romeo and Juliet was inspired by something that had actually happened.)ā
Yes, I heard of an origin of āRomeo and Julietā as well.
Chinese legendary folklores are based on the reality of the time and last in the forms of national folk holidays, Through its whole civilization, people hate death and even avoid the sound of it āsiā ā number 4. They just want happy endings. If it canāt be achieved in reality, then letās give transferring power between human and the natural world. Here is a simple summation of some cultural information (there are much, more more detailed) ā
*****
Chinese legendary themes often revolve around creation myths, epic heroes, love stories, and the interaction between humans and the natural world. These stories often explore themes of good versus evil, morality, family, and the importance of harmony. They also reflect cultural values like filial piety, loyalty, and wisdom.
Here’s a more detailed look at some key themes:
Creation Myths:
Pan Gu:
The most famous creation myth tells of Pan Gu, who emerged from a cosmic egg and separated the heavens and earth, forming the world.
Nuwa:
Another creation myth features Nuwa, who created humanity and mended the sky after a great disaster.
Epic Heroes and Legends:
Sun Wukong (Monkey King):
A rebellious and powerful figure from “Journey to the West,” known for his strength, cunning, and pursuit of freedom.
Mulan:
A young woman who disguises herself as a man to take her father’s place in the army, demonstrating courage, filial piety, and strength.
Hou Yi and Chang’e:
A tragic love story involving a celestial archer and a moon goddess, often celebrated during the Mid-Autumn Festival.
The Eight Immortals:
A group of legendary figures known for their mastery of Daoism and their unique abilities.
Love and Relationships:
The Cowherd and the Weaver Girl:
A classic love story about two celestial beings separated by the Milky Way, celebrated during the Qixi Festival (Chinese Valentine’s Day).
The Butterfly Lovers:
A tragic tale of young lovers who are tragically separated, often cited as one of the four great love stories of ancient China.
Themes of Harmony and Nature:
Balance and Interconnectedness:
Chinese mythology emphasizes the importance of balance in the universe and the interconnectedness between humans and nature.
Nature as a Force:
Natural phenomena like eclipses and celestial events are often seen as expressions of nature’s power and influence on human affairs.
Cultural Values:
Filial Piety:
Respect for elders and ancestors is a core value in Chinese culture, reflected in many legends and stories.
Harmony and Benevolence:
The pursuit of harmony in relationships and society is a central theme in Chinese philosophy and mythology.
Loyalty and Duty:
Many stories highlight the importance of loyalty to one’s family, country, and principles
The Four Symbols (Azure Dragon, Vermilion Bird, White Tiger, Black Tortoise): Guardians of the four cardinal directions.
Key Aspects of Chinese Mythology:
Gods and Goddesses:
A vast pantheon of deities, including the Jade Emperor, Guanyin Buddha, and the Eight Immortals, play significant roles in various aspects of life, nature, and the afterlife.
Mythical Creatures:
Dragons š ā
These mythical creatures are known for their immense power and are often accompanied by lightning and thunder while they fly.
Chinese dragons symbolize powerful and positive forces and are associated with good luck, prosperity, and success. For example, Yinglong (silver dragon) has control over water.
Phoenixes š¦āš„ ā
The Phoenix is a magnificent creature with bright, multicolored feathers. It has a body similar to a pheasant, and its wings are like those of the rock.[3] Its tail feathers are red, blue, yellow, white, and black – these five colors are considered sacred.[4] In Chinese, the Phoenix is called Fenghuang.
The immortal Phoenix holds significant cultural and symbolic importance in Chinese belief systems. It represents balance and harmony between the essential energies of the cosmos.
https://youtu.be/naNruju9TS0?feature=shared ā Phoenix Legend āMost Dazzling Folk Style
Nine-Tailed Fox š¦ ā
This Chinese mythical creature is often portrayed with bright red or orange fur and has eyes that change color with its emotions, making it all the more captivating. Its most recognizable trait is the nine tails, which symbolize its age and wisdom.
The Nine-tailed Fox is a mythical creature from Chinese folklore that represents wisdom, protection, and guidance. It is also prominent in Japanese, Korean, and Vietnamese cultures.
https://youtube.com/shorts/Dn57vv1Oalg?feature=shared ā Nine-tailed foxes in Asian Mythology
https://plushthis.com/blogs/how-to/chinese-mythical-creatures-and-their-legendary-stories?srsltid=AfmBOooooi5AtXPyA3aiAjBTqXX_c5KnfMWKHg1yzYtg2-x-hvcEK69T ā Epic Tales of China: 20 Chinese Mythical Creatures and Their Legendary Stories
Thanks, Snow! š
Marcia,
“I donāt know who runs the female limerent penitentiary. Maybe L.E.? He seems like a good choice. He likes to correct people. š Cāmon that was funny. š Heās the only male poster on here whoās not limerent and who has been through limerence enough to have acquired some common sense. š”
Thank you!
As much as I appreciate the endorsement, I think I’ll decline the position.
I don’t think you need a penitentiary exactly. If you go back far enough, there’s a discussion on DrL’s Home for Wayward Limerents. I don’t remember it having a locked wing but it could easily be put in the, as yet, non-existent blueprints.
I know nothing about running such a facility except what I learned from watching “Cool Hand Luke” about 6 times (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj60OAh7O5U). Besides, I’m retired and “I like to work at nuthin’ all day” (BTO).
Besides, such a facility would need a Matron. You’re the only hard-ass woman on LwL capable of the job and you’re busy.
š©āš¦° š,
I so agree with you that youāre still a limerent here, just count the frequency of LO#2 and LO#4 in the LwL galleries! š
Between my Sister and me, you can see has more āPā in the bones and would always try to breach any rules existing or newly set up, out of sheer crocodile šās tears for an eternal humanity ā limerentās outcrying heartš
Donāt look at me for the Matron positionā¦ Iāll end up smuggle into lady Marciaās penitentiary more female Limmies, not just Mila š„ š š· aloneā¦
LE,
“Besides, such a facility would need a Matron. Youāre the only hard-ass woman on LwL capable of the job and youāre busy.”
Oh, no. I’m working with the men. You’re working with the women. š
Everyone seems to be doing so well. Am I the only one who is falling apart?
I have to drive past LO’s house every Thursday night. Luckily I didn’t see him, but I got emotional, regardless.
I keep thinking it’ll be so much easier once he leaves, but getting from here to there seems impossible.
Iām in a different stage at the moment, but Iāve been in the falling-apart stage many times.
Youāll get there.
To Serial Limerent:
Could I ask you to elaborate a little bit? How long does each stage take?
I thought I was doing better, but overall seem to be worse than previously.
Iām not an expert on it, but the worst stage would maybe last a few months. Then Iād start getting better but still feel depressed for a while, like maybe a year or two for some of them. It depended on circumstances, like was it a rough breakup or did somebody just move away, did I have someone else to turn to.
To Serial Limerent:
That sounds pretty dismal.
A Song in Summer
Sophie Jewett
1861 ā1909
If I were but the west wind,
I would follow you;
Cross a hundred hills to find
Your world of green and blue;
In your pine wood linger,
Whisper to you there
Stories old and strange, and finger
Softly your bright hair.
[It was summer when I found you]
Sappho
It was summer when I found you
In the meadow long ago,
And the golden vetch was growing
By the shore.
Did we falter when love took us
With a gust of great desire?
Does the barley bid the wind wait
In his course?
******
We did falter
Now the west wind has scattered the barley
beyond any shoreā¦
š¦āš„
Song today:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=creep+radiohead
I was preempting the yard to mow and way back in the very back of the yard I found something dug into the dirt by the shed. I dug it out so as not to run it over with the mower. And it was just a plastic gun. I remember our oldest begging me to buy it when he was like 10 when I took him to me to Dollar General. It was all of $5. But I remember all the fun we had with it. Theyāre both grown. They donāt need their old man anymore. They have their own lives.
Cats In The Cradle ā Harry Chapin
https://youtu.be/5u-KWa3tL-0?si=6mTgJFNm_zbqs2Ab
To Adam:
Just be grateful that they communicate with you. I know that song is heartbreaking.
I have three adult daughters who don’t speak to me, so things could be worse.
I went to borrow my sonās lawn mower as mine is still in the shop. I saw him before he went to work. He was talking about car repairs, bills and money. And Iām like āwelcome to adulthood son. Sometimes it kinda sucks.ā And then we talked about video games together. š And then him and his roommate asked me about midlife crisis. And I told them both ājust donāt do what I did. Buy a sports car you canāt afford instead.ā I know I knew what my son knew I was talking about.
To Adam:
I would encourage you to cherish this small connection with your son. If I could have a conversation like that with one of my daughters, it would make my day.
Helen
Miss Norma aka Helen Mirin
You need a hug. And here I am to give you hug.
Now where you wanna go out to dinner? Ever had sake? š
To Adam:
I can’t drink, but I am open to any and all food suggestions.
My Dear Norma
Maybe we could entertain a nice Italian place. Iām quite fond of German food. Or maybe we can indulge in grilled cheese and chicken noodle soup. Whatever you want to try littlebird
To Adam:
I am really in the mood for some New England clam chowder, or maybe Lobster Bisque. Do you like either of those?
I like both my dear. You tell me where and Iāll pass you the saltines or the bread. Oh no. Iām getting kinda jealous that young waiter had eyes on you littlebird. Are you gonna trade this old man for a newer model?
Man look at all this kindness and affection between Adam and ND.
Even going out for dinner already.
I wish the Great Dame and I had this kind of relationship. I can’t even get a cup of coffee.. With her or with anyone for that matter..
šššŖ£š¦
š¦ šŖ£ š¦ ,
Her Ladyship Marcia is busy getting her package ready for her antipathetic date, š£ stop whining š making her nervous!
Only your ladyship I am available now, but you know well I canāt invite you for coffee or you me ā your worshiped Grandpa would throw his š¦Æ at me, like he did when I tried to get a honorable drink with your bro, š© šŗ and Mamma, a while ago š„¹ā¦
I still havenāt got my drink Sir š© š„ promised! š¢ July 4th is comingā¦ š§Ø
š¦ šŖ£ š¦ , Iām glad you did not drown in your own tears like her ladyship thought; but I canāt make coffee for you due to your no show for the duty in my house last night!
Youāre banished to outside of LwL Walls, just wait until her Ladyship comes back from her date, seeing you whining hereā¦ . š
The stupid auto-correction š”
I meant to say āher anticipated dateā¦ā āļø
Sorry, Lady Marcia, for such an escaped error. š
“Iām glad you did not drown in your own tears like her ladyship thought; but I canāt make coffee for you due to your no show for the duty in my house last night!”
Snow,
I’m glad to see you’re both cognizant of my emotions. Of course I didn’t come over last night. I didn’t see where I got asked. Both you and her rambling on in the forum here, endlessly posting novels. As if I have time to sit and read like that. Never mind I’m getting older and fall asleep reading half the time.. š§š»š
“Youāre banished to outside of LwL Walls, just wait until her Ladyship comes back from her date, seeing you whining ..
Ummm no.. I’m going to have file a grievance with Lwl management over that and will personally take matters up with my Union Rep in the meantime. If that doesn’t work, I’ll find my Brother Adam. I need to exhaust all my options, before I will accept that punishment. Being that the Great Dame thinks I’m a private contractor..
You tell that Great Dame I’ll be alright. Guess it doesn’t matter anyway if she’s going out on hot dates without me.
You tell her LF broke NC again at work last week so now the Dame is going to have competition.. šš
ND,
“Miss Norma aka Helen Mirin”
I’d take that compliment! I mean, me, Marcia, would take it, even though she’s much older than me. She is a smokeshow! š
MJ,
“I wish the Great Dame and I had this kind of relationship. I canāt even get a cup of coffee.. With her or with anyone for that matter…”
You never asked me to dinner. You never offered me sake. All that you offered was a coffee from the convenient store. I’m cheap, but I’m not that cheap. š
Snow,
“Her Ladyship Marcia is busy getting her package ready for her antipathetic date, š£ stop whining š making her nervous!”
Thank you! The older one gets, the longer it takes to get the package ready! š
MJ,
“Being that the Great Dame thinks Iām a private contractor..”
Ain’t no union in Limerence Land!
“You tell that Great Dame Iāll be alright. Guess it doesnāt matter anyway if sheās going out on hot dates without me.”
You want to go with me? š
“You tell her LF broke NC again at work last week so now the Dame is going to have competition.. šš”
In all seriousness, I hope you’re not opening that door again. You’re wasting your time.
To Marcia:
Helen Mirren is only a little older than I am. She looks far better than I do; I will happily take the compliment.
I am not exactly a smoke-show, but I have my moments.
ND,
“She looks far better than I do; I will happily take the compliment.”
It’s not just how she looks. It’s the confidence. š Pull up on youtube Helen Mirren Leaves Stephen Speechless.
I donāt even have to pull up the video to know what that refers to. I remember how she just totally shocked Colbert. Then Sally Field did the same thing. Then it became a trend andāthen Evie put a stop to it, lol.
Years later he teased Sally Field for it. It was funny because she has this pure-hearted reputation. š
Serial,
“Years later he teased Sally Field for it. It was funny because she has this pure-hearted reputation. š”
I didn’t think it was funny. I thought it was kind of cringe as she was just imitating what someone had already done. Why would you want to follow Helen Mirren? Good luck with that! š
MJ,
You are a brave man my friend.
A word to the wise – I haven’t been able to find any way out of the labyrinthine layers of this place we found ourselves in, without keeping BOTH their ladyships happy.
Persistent is the way to go brother. I think Dame Marica is a bit fond of you but she wonāt admit it. Sheās a stubborn woman.
I think Miss Norm is gonna dump me for the young guy. Were screwed my brother.
Silly Adam:
You are not an Old Man. I think I am old enough to be your mother. Why would I dump you for a man young enough to be my grandson?
“I think Dame Marica is a bit fond of you but she wonāt admit it. Sheās a stubborn woman.”
Adam
You can say that again Brother. Maybe she’s just playing hard to get.. She should hurry up and try to snag this guy..
https://ew.com/golden-bachelor-mel-owens-wont-date-women-over-60-11762478
She might just have a chance.. š
Adam and MJ,
“You can say that again Brother. Maybe sheās just playing hard to get.. She should hurry up and try to snag this guy..”
I don’t play hard to get. My interest increases with satisfaction! Ha! š
Sounds about right, but what you see is what you got.
You’re correct Adam. Stubborn as a mule.. š
Good thing I got Sabrina to keep me company this summer.
https://youtube.com/shorts/8YYuqp-OBzc?si=46m0YQXvLWzIphw2
Btw, LO looks even better than that, sitting in her cubicle.. š
Dearest Norma
I am sorry. I got a bit jealous. I got limerent over a younger woman, so I was just getting nervous. Is your lobster bisque good?
MJ
Go for the gold! You’re in the winning stretch with Dame Marcia! I’ll sing at your wedding. Hmmm …. maybe Maneater? :-/ I didn’t say that Dame Marcia …..
Sir š© š„,
You still havenāt fulfilled your promise to take me for one š¹ and pull the chair for me ! š Are you afraid of something or some š» ā
What are you waiting for, itās July 4th comingā¦ š§Ø
To Adam:
Lobster bisque hit the spot. Thank you for inviting me.
I wish you weren’t so jealous. You’re your own worst enemy.
Brother Adam,
“Iāll sing at your wedding. Hmmm ā¦. maybe Maneater? :-/ I didnāt say that Dame Marcia ā¦..”
I have no problem being called a maneater. š
“I have no problem being called a maneater.”
Marcia,
I have a problem with it.. š
Prisoner 777,
“I have a problem with it.. š”
Don’t worry. Your side still has all the power.
“You never asked me to dinner. You never offered me sake. All that you offered was a coffee from the convenient store. Iām cheap, but Iām not that cheap.”
Dear Great One,
First off, it’s not necessarily the kind of coffee you might be drinking, but it’s the person you’re having the coffee with. We have to have a starting point. You and I, and if I say convenient store is the way to go, then you should accept the invitation and enjoy the camaraderie we will share. This is how it is. Never forget my ode to coffee. (It was for CSC) You’ll like and enjoy whatever damn coffee I bring to the table. Do I make myself clear Dame?? š¤£
Whether it’s the finest Arabica beans from Costa Rica, Brazil, Yemen, Guatemala or cheap generic grounds from Dollar General, you are going to enjoy some delicious coffee with me. Don’t be like LF and act like you’re too good for cheap coffee. It’s being in the company of the great person I am.. I mean it’s only a cup of coffee. And if we can’t enjoy coffee together, why should I offer you sake? šš
MJ,
“Do I make myself clear Dame?? š¤£”
Yes, Big Poppa. š
Thanks for this. I needed a laugh today. Really. š
Her Ladyship š š,
Just drop a straw š„¤ or a āļø in MJās š¦ šŖ£ š¦ dungeon cell, and šļø his low-cutšā¦.
“Big Poppa, lmao.. š
Thanks for this. I needed a laugh today. Really”
Marcia,
You’re welcome. I try to be good for something now and then.. š
“Just drop a straw š„¤ or a āļø in MJās š¦ šŖ£ š¦ dungeon cell, and šļø his low-cutšā¦.”
Snow,
You better check yourself too Lady Snowbird. I’ve got my eye on your shenanigans. Don’t go making fun of my low-cut clothing because you think you can treat me like an underling. The Union Rep is coming to speak to you today about this unjust punishment. Sanctions will be needed.. šš
“Youāre your own worst enemy.”
Miss Norma
I have heard that before from people. But I haven’t been on a date in a long time so maybe my nerves were getting the best of me.
Maybe some night we can double date with MJ and Dame Marcia. š
š¦ šŖ£ š¦,
This a private matter between us all sexy, passionate, bewitched, eternally-illogical limerents, no need to call some Union Rep.
Just affectionately poke your Grandpa in hibernation, then under his heaven-shaking coughs, Iād never dare to look you up as underlingā¦ šØ š°
To Adam:
I would love to go on a double date, although I am concerned that you may get jealous of MJ? Also, perhaps we should have you fitted with a set of blinders so that you won’t notice all the cute waiters salivating over my Helen Mirren hotness.
Her Ladyship,
“Just drop a straw š„¤ or a āļø in MJās š¦ šŖ£ š¦ dungeon cell, and šļø his low-cutšā¦.”
Ummm …. why is he in low-cut pants? I’m not sure that’s a wise fashion choice. No skinny jeans! š
Your Ladyship š š ,
āUmmm ā¦. why is he in low-cut pants? Iām not sure thatās a wise fashion choice. No skinny jeans! šā
When you went out on your date, and I was taking a nap under the scorching Sunš, MJ š¦ šŖ£ š¦ had some low-cut skinny š smuggled in. He put one on, ready to pick up a āļø anytime, just to get a lady or anyone to have š§with him in the dungeonšŖ.
Neither of us can force him to strip off his skinny š, can weā Should we borrow a male guardšāāļø to do the jobā
Miss Snow,
“Neither of us can force him to strip off his skinny š, can weā Should we borrow a male guardšāāļø to do the jobā”
Yes, L.E. will do it. š
Skinny jeans are NOT allowed in our facility on any male prisoners. I don’t care if they look like the Hemsworth brothers! š
Your Ladyship,
āYes, L.E. will do it. šā
š£ š©āš¦° š, š£ š©āš¦° š Where are thee? We two š¦āš„ need some masculine help š !
āSkinny jeans are NOT allowed in our facility on any male prisoners. I donāt care if they look like the Hemsworth brothers! šā
šØ Reallyā I pray š none of our male limerent looks like Hemsworth Brothers, or I may lose my footing šµāš« š£ as a Matron and fall head šover š into another LE š«¦
Dear Norma
I will be on my best behavior and try not to embarrass you. It’s difficult not to be suspicious when you are sitting next to the prettiest woman in the restaurant.
I’d never be jealous of MJ. That’s my brother. He might be the only man I would trust to be by your side in my absence.
To Adam:
So should we go ahead with the blinders, or no?
“Iād never be jealous of MJ. Thatās my brother. He might be the only man I would trust to be by your side in my absence.”
Thanks Bro. Unworthy as I am, but yes I think you can trust me. The not-so-great Dame and Snow Queen however wouldn’t trust me to even water their plants. So thank you for giving me a chance.
MJ,
You weren’t supposed to water their plants. You were supposed to clean their floor.
Is this all metaphorical??
C’mon, let’s just do what we’re told so we can get on the outside again. I’ll lend you my LO for a coffee, I promise. She’s fun and she’s willing Brother MJ. She’s a bit older than your typical gal, but she’s lovely.
(You see that address to me Dame? Sir LaR called me Lord. Lord MJ. Sounds very fitting does it not? You and Snow Queen should take a lesson from this Mans playbook and address me as such. I think I’ve earned it.. š)
You’re right @LaR. I’m just being awnry because it’s ridiculous I got put here in the first place. I don’t care about their stupid floor. They’re so busy getting all chummy and close, I can’t stand it.. šJamming up the forum with all their witty banter. Making fun of my tears and skinny jeans. Please. I couldn’t fit in to skinny jeans if I tried. At 6’1, I’d look like a pig trying to fit into scuba diving gear.
As for your LO, how old is she? I’d take her out for coffee. I’d love to go out for coffee. I’ll bet she is fun. Perhaps we could even make a trade. LF is trying break NC with me and get back in I think. I’ll trade her for your LO and then you’ll see why 35 and under is the way to go. She’s a lot of fun too and very likable. Hot like a Stallion..
Giddyup.. šš
Lord MJ of this manor,
“You see that address to me Dame? Sir LaR called me Lord. Lord MJ. Sounds very fitting does it not?”
We gotta fight back.
Their worshipful ladies are kicking us around. We’ve (you especially) done our time in this place enough to earn some respect too. And why are we here anyway?
“You and Snow Queen should take a lesson from this Mans playbook and address me as such.”
I don’t see that idea succeeding, but that’s on them if so.
“Youāre right @LaR. Iām just being awnry because itās ridiculous I got put here in the first place. I donāt care about their stupid floor.”
Yeah. What did we actually do to deserve being here in this place?
I saw you did what the Dame asked you and tried to organise a coffee, and then she turned you down. The cheek! Although you were being stingy about the type of bean.
“Making fun of my tears and skinny jeans. Please. I couldnāt fit in to skinny jeans if I tried. At 6ā1 …”
Me neither. Skinny jeans are for people half my age and thigh circumference.
“As for your LO, how old is she?”
She has a decade and a little bit on yours. But she’s proper feisty and she has the prettiest eyes. Does she still qualify?
“Iād take her out for coffee. Iād love to go out for coffee. Iāll bet she is fun.”
Oh she’s fun alright. Never a dull or predictable moment there, trust me. You’d have to be nice to her, but you’d very much enjoy her witty bants.
“Iāll trade her for your LO and then youāll see why 35 and under is the way to go.”
I wouldn’t and couldn’t trade her for all the money in the world, unfortunately. You’ll get this, but I’ve tried everything to shift her (even Miss Lovisa’s ‘make a list of ten candidates to transfer to and pick one’ idea). None of it worked. I couldn’t even think of any worthy candidates.
“Sheās a lot of fun too and very likable. Hot like a Stallion..
Giddyup.. šš”
I am with the Dame on this – I don’t like how LF has been treating you with the NC. What’s she doing differently now, then? And why?
Don’t expend too much effort on her, in my opinion. Give the Dame time instead and she might warm up to your coffee offer. Or let’s do the plan above – it’d help me out.
Dear Norma
You weren’t around for this story that I posted a long time ago. If you want to humor an old man being long winded…
LO told me on May 24 of 2022 that she was leaving the job. She took the time to personally phone me and tell me. June 3 of 2022 was her last day. She worked in a different geographic location than I did. So, I took a PTO day to travel to her location and be there.
At that time, she was seeing a man. (She was a single mother.) A much younger man than me. I was quite jealous of the attention I was losing to him. Not jealous of her actually seeing a man because at the time he seemed to make her happy. And that was all that I wanted for her was to be happy. (Her ex cheated on her.) But at the same time, he was stealing her from me. At least that is how I saw it.
Towards the end of the day, I was sitting at a desk facing her office and he had come in to talk to her. They talked for a while and then he left. I sat there thinking that this is the last day I am ever going to see her and here he is hogging the limelight. Then he came back. LO had both her daughters with her at work that day. It was June … 90 to 100 degrees that day. He brought them all back snow cones. And in my head, I said “Dammit I gotta like this guy.”
In the 2 1/2 years I have been here, Miss Snow has been very instrumental in changing my world view. She has helped me to try and adopt a more stoic view of life with her eastern culture. Jealousy is one of my more, ugly emotions. I haven’t been able to bury it as well as my anger. But I am working on it.
So, for the safety of our enjoyed double date wth MJ and Dame Marcia, perhaps the blinders would be a good thing.
Sir š© š„,
You liked my Eastern dry Martini-preaching during my first jealousy bout š³ā
Now, I want more of my overdue š¹! Can I wait in line after Miss Normaāš
To Adam:
Thank you for sharing that interesting story. I have a couple of questions.
1. Was it weird that you took a day off to go see LO? I mean, would anyone else think it was unusual?
2. Have you seen LO again since that day?
3. What happened to Snowcone Man?
Norma
“1. Was it weird that you took a day off to go see LO? I mean, would anyone else think it was unusual?”
I don’t think anyone expected I wouldn’t. When I did work with her in person for 5 months the previous year, I was not at all discreet in my favoritism to her. To the point the rest of the office said I had a “crush” on her. Or as my boss would say “you spoil her too much”. All that aside when she called to tell me she was leaving, I asked her if I could be there on her last day, and she said that she would like that.
“2. Have you seen LO again since that day?”
No. I talked to her one time on the phone a couple months after she left. She was visiting the office, and I was on hold to talk to someone else, and she picked up the phone and talked to me for about 10 minutes.
“3. What happened to Snowcone Man?”
They are not together anymore. She, from what other co-workers have told me, is now engaged to another man about my age. But I do not know what happened between her and the man she was seeing when she still worked here.
Crazy side note … you bringing me down memory lane, just made me realize her daughter is about 20-21 years old now. She was 15 the first time LO brought her to work, and I met her. I started feeling a bit stressed. LO told me one time that as protective of her daughter as I was, that it was probably a good thing I never had one of my own. I think she’s right.
“Their worshipful ladies are kicking us around. Weāve (you especially) done our time in this place enough to earn some respect too. And why are we here anyway?”
LaR,
I think they’re simply the dominant type. Feeling superior to men. You know there’s a whole feminist movement out there that despises the patriarchy. Perhaps it’s where they’re at. They see us as weak and insecure.. And then good to be kicked around and put-down.. š
“Although you were being stingy about the type of bean”
As I stated, it isn’t so much about the coffee I’m drinking, as it is the company I’m having the coffee with. At this point, I could be drinking ditchwater but if the person I’m with is providing me some worth, then the beverage is not even relevant. The Dame knows this. She knows it’s quality over quantity with me.. š
“She has a decade and a little bit on yours. But sheās proper feisty and she has the prettiest eyes. Does she still qualify?”
So she’s in her early 40s. With pretty eyes.. Oh that’s perfect. One of my other Lady crushes is in her early 40s and definitely my type. This may not please the Dame because she gets jealous and calls me out whenever I spot anyone 1 or 2 seconds younger than her.. She’s never happy I swear. I just can’t win man.. š
“I am with the Dame on this ā I donāt like how LF has been treating you with the NC. Whatās she doing differently now, then? And why?”
Just to clear things up, I’ve been NC on LF. I thought this was the strategy she wanted after our fallout. Because upon approaching her a few times, it was clear she wanted me to stay away. So I cut her off with very strict LC (Almost NC, but it’s so hard being Co-Workers)
I’m not the one that wanted that but have been trying to be respectful of her needed space. I feel like she’s missed me a little because I still catch her staring at me. I don’t try to stare back but often catch myself looking her way because it’s something her and I always do it seems. I don’t try to make it obvious and usually I try to look away fast but I know she sees me. She’s said hi to me and tried to start a little conversation the other night, but I needed to be stoic about it. Guess it’s just pride kicking in. I mean she did really kind of insult me to my face and still hasn’t really apologized for it but it’s whatever. I don’t really expect her to. I think it’s just a validation game with her. Because I feel like if I cave in and go talk to her, she’ll know she’s still got me on the leash somehow. She can only do this because she’s hot.. I don’t want to go and validate if I don’t have to. I’m kind of in a place to keep riding things out. I think she misses my attention but she can have almost anyone she wants anyway. Some guy had already replaced me right after our fallout anyway. But now I think he’s somewhat figured her out. I don’t know. It’s weird. And she’s weird too but I don’t hate her. I don’t even dislike her. I’ve never wanted to dislike her because she does have a lot of sweet qualities about her. It just didn’t go like I wanted it to with us. Not saying I played my cards all right.. I know I didn’t. But it’s ok because at least I figured out what I was working with..
MJ,
“This may not please the Dame because she gets jealous and calls me out whenever I spot anyone 1 or 2 seconds younger than her.. Sheās never happy I swear. I just canāt win man.. š”
Do what you want. I have no dog in this fight.
“Do what you want. I have no dog in this fight.”
Hello there!!
What’s wrong Dear? One of the 3 Muskateers stand you up? How rude.. š
Hope I haven’t pinched a nerve or put a bug in your craw. No happy face after your post. Everything alright? I’m around if you need me.
Just lookin out.. š
MJ,
“One of the 3 Muskateers stand you up?”
That’s what I would call them. Some absurdist comedy version.
“Hope I havenāt pinched a nerve or put a bug in your craw. ”
Is that a saying? Bug in your craw? š
“Everything alright? Iām around if you need me. Just lookin out.. š”
That’s sweet of you to ask. I’m just going to put everything back in the freezer.
MJ,
Just you be nice to her, OK?!
“I mean she did really kind of insult me to my face and still hasnāt really apologized for it but itās whatever. I donāt really expect her to”
Ok – so you haven’t ever fully told us the detail of why you two fell out. I respect the fact you didn’t want to expose all that on here, but it does mean I don’t have her side of the story as to why she insulted you to your face. I got enough from your posts to get an inkling of it, I think.
Whatever else you said about her (and I get stuff like that she’s usually sweet, and she likes validation, and that there has been a ‘vibe’ between you two), the insult to the face raises red flags … Not so much the fact that it happened, maybe (we all say rash and reactive things at times), so much as how she never apologised or at least gave the two of you the opportunity to discuss it more. I’d expect that you’d at least get that. I think you’re sensible not to allow her back into your orbit without that. I don’t think you should let her try and have it ‘quietly forgotten’ and you two go back to the way you were before.
Just my two pence worth.
Sending you some Costa vouchers in the post āļø Just in case your union rep is successful in getting you out of that dungeon.
“Thatās sweet of you to ask. Iām just going to put everything back in the freezer.”
Marcia,
Lol.. š Leave the steaks out though. I’ll throw them on the grill later and make you the best steak ever.
MJ,
“Lol.. š Leave the steaks out though. Iāll throw them on the grill later and make you the best steak ever.”
Now you and I both know I don’t have steaks. Maybe some 1/2 price ground chuck. If you want to cook that up, I ain’t gonna stop you. But I ain’t going to do nothing to help. š
So my two cents about LF … that’s done and over with. The first time someone is flim-flammy and dodgy in response to you asking them to hang out … you’re done. That has to be your standard. That that person is interested in hanging out with you and shows up. You can be pleasant to her at work. You can say hello, but you don’t hover and you don’t orbit. You don’t wait around. You don’t make chit chit in hopes she changes her mind. You see her, you say hello and you walk on. And if she does change her mind, it’s up to her to circle back around. And by “circle back around,” I mean she asks you to do something outside of work. You are not going to be her work orbiter.
“Ok ā so you havenāt ever fully told us the detail of why you two fell out.”
LaR,
Out of respect for privacy on my part and LFs, I really don’t want to put that out here. It discloses too much and want to respect both of us in the matter. I understand this is an anonymous forum, but there are still elements to this I will not post about..
What I will say is it is a personal matter with myself that I felt needed sharing with her. About my past and things that went wrong leading up to my divorce. I didn’t get to this place in life by being a Saint. In any event, I figured since the vibe between LF and I was improving at that point, that perhaps I should tell her. In a way I was still hesitant but wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps she might surprise me. I could gauge her trust level and just thought it was fair and time that she know.
She coaxed me in to telling her because she told me that I didn’t need to be afraid of her judging me about it. This was the remark that sealed the deal. I also figured if I told her this, she might consider telling me the scoop on her other little dirty deed she had going on with our other Co-Worker. Since we were being non-judgemental correct? I mean maybe she might tell me. Maybe not.. So after work, we talked in the parking lot and were out there for about 20 minutes. She heard me out and in a way I thought she was OK about it. I even held her hand and told her I really appreciated being able to open up and tell her. This was on a Friday.. I txtd her a little message later on after we left. She never replied. I knew she wouldn’t.
The following week, she called off the first day back and the next day forgot I even existed. In walking up to her car, she was on the phone and didn’t even acknowledge I was there. Later on I tried approaching her and her body language was very defensive. I could almost see nervousness. We talked for a little bit but it was to no avail. She basically said she felt deceived, called me a few choice names and needed to be done. I tried telling her I am same person she knew, from just a few days before, that was laughing and joking with her, calling her goofy names and simply trying to show her my absolute best side. You don’t end getting divorced by being a good husband. She wasn’t hearing it.. Obviously I figured this might click somewhere inside her brain, considering what I know about her and Dude. I figured if anything, she might even come down to my level and disclose that issue to me in some small way, but she did not. I wasn’t going to tell her what I knew either, figuring it would only cringe her out more. So I basically walked off and went cold, strict LC.. Knowing hard NC will always be damn near impossible. I didn’t like it but it was the hand she dealt me. It’s basically been like this since March.
I figured at some point, she might consider apologizing. I had txtd her an apology not long after we had last spoken but she never replied. In the time since, she’s said hi to me but I remained indifferent. The eye contact has ebbed and flowed. Some nights there has been a lot but some nights none at all. I catch her staring at me and then look away. Then when I see her I try not to stare but sometimes she catches me anyway. It’s short and no words are ever said. Until the other night when I felt like she was testing me. She basically just asked me “what’s up?” and I said “not much” I went about my business and kept it at that.
I feel like she’s trying to imply she wants me to know she doesn’t hate me. Yet in another way, I feel like she wants me to maybe approach her again. Because she misses the attention I gave her. I’m kind of in a place where I don’t want to. I mean I don’t hate her at all. Or even dislike her. She’s still pretty hot and gorgeous tbh, but not enough to make me feel about her like I once did. I feel like I was duped. Especially when she went all rogue on me. I gave her the benefit of the doubt way too much. I apologized. Again I know I didn’t play my cards all right, but I didn’t think she would react in the way she would either. Especially because she’s not perfect either. But I would never judge her for her conduct, based on that. I think I’m better than that but I guess it’s because I’ve been around 24 more years than she has.
“I donāt think you should let her try and have it āquietly forgottenā and you two go back to the way you were before.”
I agree and in a way, I have some light hope her and I can have a sit-down again and maybe hash it out. Maybe.. If it doesn’t happen, then I’m really kind of ok about it. I guess I’ve gotten over her. It doesn’t hurt like it did at first.
I’m also very glad it never hurt like it did with LO. Even though the situations are very different in nature, I knew LF wasn’t ever cutting it in the way LO did. So to kind of be in this place today feels better than where I mentally could be..
“Sending you some Costa vouchers in the post āļø”
Thanks. That was some very good coffee. Now would someone please let me out of this freaking dungeon already?? š
Sir š¦,šŖ£ š§,
Youāve behaved very well with my Sister š š and Sir Snakeā¦ and itās our national holiday. In addition, I got a new emoji š š° from our beloved š š§ā¦
So you have two-day Jail š card to barbecue that š„© for me if Lady Marcia does not have a stomach for itā¦
MJ,
For that confessional, I am very glad that you’ve got a hall pass out of the dungeon to cook steak. Although it seems our ‘keepers’ have to be the ones it is cooked for?! š¤
I totally respect you don’t want to reveal everything, and I didn’t mean to seem to pressurise. There is tons about my LE story and all the three main characters connected to it that I just can’t reveal here, but that you’d need to have to really understand it. So I get it.
“Yet in another way, I feel like she wants me to maybe approach her again. Because she misses the attention I gave her. Iām kind of in a place where I donāt want to.”
That all sounds very very very likely. Bottom line – she doesn’t want to give up that attention you gave her. And I am glad you can see it and don’t want to fall back. If she sits down and lets you hash it out, then it becomes a different matter. But she hasn’t. I’m also pleased for you that it didn’t sting you like LO did.
FWIW, I think you were brave to front up and tell her bits about your past. If she can’t shoulder it and carry on as your friend, then that’s on her.
Dame š š, Dame š š§, š, Lady šš¦, Miss Norma šā¦ Sir š¦, Sir š, Sir š„ā¦ & coffeehouse,
Iām going out for the most spectacular š š š§Ø , and will come back soon to have my š„©, š§ š¹, š, šæ, š«, š , šØ š± ā¦ with you cheeky š» š» š» !
Happy July šŗšø!
“I think you were brave to front up and tell her bits about your past. If she canāt shoulder it and carry on as your friend, then thatās on her.”
LaR,
Thanks for your support Friend. It means a lot to have your back in this.
“So you have two-day Jail š card to barbecue that š„© for me if Lady Marcia does not have a stomach for itā¦”
Snow
It sounds like she didn’t have steak in the freezer. So I was stuck with the ground chuck. It also seems like she’s not really in the mood for 4th of July cheer either. It’s alright.. That makesāš»of us.. š
Thank you also for temporarily letting me out of the dungeon..
Sir š¦,
Youāre one of Dameās dudes, how on earth I would have the July 4th celebration with just āļø of us? š Youāre in delirium again! šµāš«
Iām the most loyal friend to anyone I choose to befriend, so I will never betray her ladyshipā¦. Youāre going to have your beef chuck alone or perhaps with Miss Norma? Sheās very safe for any straight man, just donāt bring her to your big House, perhaps a public restaurant? If sheās gone to sleep, youāll have to call your Bro š© š„ . If your Bro is š Mammaās š¦µš½ , you may have to cry out for your lost Grandpaā¦ (Sir š is sleeping in different time zoneā¦)
Within another š day, your task is to cheer up her ladyship (she had to work today). If you succeed, the š pass will extend its durationā¦ š
Just a small update. I noticed an improvement in my condition, a very tiny one, but it was a welcome realization.
It was about one year ago that Joe Biden dropped out of the election and gave the candidacy to Kamala Harris. This was big news at the time. I remember it happened on a Sunday morning and I immediately texted LO to ask him what he thought.
He responded that Harris was “just a DEI hire,” which I thought was very unfair. Like her or hate her, she is more than that. He said he couldn’t continue the conversation because he was with his mother.
It occurred to me that, if such a thing were to happen today, I wouldn’t DREAM of texting LO to talk about it.
I would know it was a waste of time. I didn’t know that a year ago.
So, a tiny bit of progress.
Norma D,
Whoa! That’s such a shallow, hateful comment from him. You are much more thoughtful and intelligent than he is.
To Monochrome:
LO is heavily influenced by right-wing media, which seems to delight in exaggerating the faults of anyone they don’t like, and also exaggerating the talents of those they DO like.
I told LO I prefer objectivity, insofar as that is possible. He insisted that he too prefers objectivity, although I don’t see any evidence of that in his comments.
It’s easy to be attracted to that kind of certainty and confidence, even when we know better.
Hello all, I think I am improving. I don’t want to rest on my laurels and I don’t want a “I’m totally over this, let’s get coffee” moment, but I think understanding about limerence and brain training is helping. Unfortunately I can’t go no contact, and contact still affects me, but not as much as it has done previously. I’m feeling in a better place than I was a few weeks ago. Thank you for being there, even though most of the time I write a post then delete it because I can’t share specifics.
To Monochrome:
I think it’s important to rejoice in small victories.
Bravo Monochrome. This is very good to hear! It is a journey for sure, and each step is little, but some of them give us new stuff to work with. Keep it going.
I had an overwhelming urge to contact LO last week but it seems to have passed.
Obviously the way I feel now won’t last, but I am thrilled to at least see some intermittent progress.
During the first year of my limerence, it was just non-stop longing. I am slowly getting better. I am really grateful to be here. You all are helping tremendously.
ššš
One step at a time. š
Yet more (nice) work turned down today in order not to arouse suspicion because I told LO two years ago I didn’t have space for more clients. š
“Yes, L.E. will do it. š”
Ehhhh….no….
Right now, I want to Gibbs Slap the whole lot of you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZwYmlR9Lh8
Signed,
L.E., Curmudgeon In Residence
L.E.
I feel like I could easily join you in that venture..
The limerents here just keep getting so unruly that I wonder how Dr. L puts up with us. š
But we have lots of redeeming qualities.
š¦ š
DrL would allow inmates in LwL asylum could have their own fun, as long as they donāt fights with verb fists or guns , due to their own uncontrollable pains or perhaps naive belief that their pains could go away by attacking other inmates.
Have you heard of laughing therapy? I tried twice with a huge group, and found it helped release some stresses. But the mechanism to induce laughters was quite contrived.
Here, our co-written comedies of real time have brought me/us daily genuine fun and laughters, which have served as our co-invented āremedyā ā releasing whatever LE pains each of us is having. Nothing can be betterāļø Youāre a published writer, you know the deep gratification of creative writingā¼ļø
Is MJ still crying buckets of water missing his unreachable š„ Lš ¾ļø, or trying to get out the dungeon to water her ladyshipās plants? šŖ“ šŖ“
Of all the People here, you choose to call me out in this reply, because of my emotional outbursts over LO perfection. So what of I’m crying again? The Woman just brings it out of me. I can’t help it. š
I might just usurp LE and Gibbs slap you twice for that comment. Maybe 3 times for personally calling me out.. š
MJ,
“I might just usurp LE and Gibbs slap you twice for that comment. Maybe 3 times for personally calling me out.. š”
If you lay one finger on her Ladyship, there will be consequences! And something tells me, I’d just have to flick you, and you go barreling across the room! š
MJ š¦ š¦ š š¦ , What a crying š¶ š¦!
Your goddess š¦āš„ I could single you š baby out of uncountable whiny, crying Limerents is because your undeniable tears were so indulged and glorified by your lost Grandpa š² that š¦ š š¦ almost flooded my heavenly šŖ¹ and āļø board š in the sky! š
Slap meāš My š„ šŖ½ šŖ½ š„ wings are like those of the rock šŖØ , a single feather would slap you all the way to the bottom of Danteās Inferno, neither LE š©āš¦° š, nor Sir LaR š, could magically save you š¦ down šš½!
āThe Woman just brings it out of me. I canāt help it. šā
Yes, you can help it, just think! š¤ š āLife is a tragedy to those who feel and a comedy to those who think.ā ā MoliĆØreā
If you keep š, how are you going to meet Sir šās Lš ¾ļø for āļøāļø
Matron āļø,
“If you keep š, how are you going to meet Sir šās Lš ¾ļø for āļøāļø”
I’ve asked her loveliness, and they are definitely on for this Coffee.
You just need to give him a hall pass from the dungeon for a day. Your ladyship – you don’t need me to explain how this coffee date could solve *three* people’s problems.
Sir š,
āYou just need to give him a hall pass from the dungeon for a day. ā
No, no, noā¼ļø š¶š¦ addressed me with some alien term (I didnāt bother to look it up), and her ladyship and I unanimously decided that š¶š¦ need to stay in the dungeon until his shell hardens and he keeps ignoring that š„ LF as šāļø
āYour ladyship ā you donāt need me to explain how this coffee date could solve *three* peopleās problems.ā
As a Western restless knight, you need to take challenges in the reality, so your unbound LFF needs to be dangling and swinging in front of your š š§ š. Ehe entire LwL is šļø šļø you, Sir š!
My good lady āļøš¦
“As a Western restless knight, you need to take challenges in the reality, so your unbound LFF needs to be dangling and swinging in front of your š š§ š.”
I am literally offering her to Brother MJ for a coffee date. You can’t say fairer than that for me letting her run free! All you have to do is let him out to play!
Sir š š± š½,
āI am literally offering her to Brother MJ for a coffee date. You canāt say fairer than that for me letting her run free! All you have to do is let him out to play!ā
Hold your horse here: Is your LFF YOURS already to lend to anyone else? What are you implying hereāš§
If Sir š¦ gets hold of your LFF for free-refill fresh-bean āļø āļø , she might not be free any longer. Let Sir š© š„ tell you how jealousy feels like to a restless knight! š
No š» dude gets free from the dungeon without providing labor service to her Ladyship. Tear-filled Limerence š¦ š is not a ājail freeā card.
“Hold your horse here: Is your LFF YOURS already to lend to anyone else? What are you implying hereāš§”
A very good point, Matron. I will take my lashings for that.
Let me rephrase. I told her about this really cool guy called Lord MJ that I met on a site called Living with Limerence and she seemed very keen on a coffee with him.
“Let Sir š© š„ tell you how jealousy feels like to a restless knight! š”
š©š„ needs to stop being shy, get down to Amoors and serenade Missāļøš with šš¤µ, š¹šµ, šŗ and š¹šø. You could then š¦šāāļø in the lazy š, away from the prying š and šš of the š¦°šØāāļø.
But – there is only so much opportunity while he is being held “at their ladyships’ pleasure” and you’re so busy with your šāāļøšš work.
Sir š š± š½,
[āLet Sir š© š„ tell you how jealousy feels like to a restless knight! šā]
I meant that if your LFF is stuck in the dungeon with Sir š¦ having endless refills of fresh been coffee, youād feel jealousy! Sir š© š„ would tell you how that jealousy feels like ā the icky, years-long LE pains, particularly for your damsel-savior type! š
āš©š„ needs to stop being shy, get down to Amoors and serenade Missāļøš with šš¤µ, š¹šµ, šŗ and š¹šø. ā
Waiting in line behind Miss Norma, this ā¬ļø is not going to happen anytime soonš; I need to practice my Stoic patience here, waiting and waitingā¦
āYou could then š¦šāāļø in the lazy š, away from the prying š and šš of the š¦°šØāāļø.ā
Where is this ālazy š āāin LāAmš ¾ļøš ¾ļøĀ®ļøāIām afraid I canāt with my duty (while his Grandpa is still lost in the galaxyā¦ )to keep šļø on Sir š¦ . If I blink my š š , heāll again contact his š„ LF who would play at him for another Merry-go-round šāļø
But ā there is only so much opportunity while he is being held āat their ladyshipsā pleasureā and youāre so busy with your šāāļøšš work.
Serial,
DrL is a tolerant guy, right?
I’d venture that we are nowhere near our unruliness level of last December when the wall of Amoors got torched and we sang drunken laments repeatedly.
Consider that some of the main male players here have been put under lock and key for over a week. How are we meant to not be a bit unruly in this situation?
Yeah, I wonder if the insurance money ever came in for that? Or is it not “an act of God” but carelessness, so no payout???
Serial,
The most expensive weekend I ever took off work!
š Trifles and that blinking welder with all his blowtorch showing off š§Æš§Æ The bill will have to go their way.
Needed to find an outlet for riding through those limerent thoughts towards LO (seriously, how is it possible that a three word reply from LO could send one down such a convoluted rabbit hole of unwanted & obsessive thoughts?). And this website and comments section always manage to deliver. Thank you for fellow limerents for sharing your situations and articulating those emotions so eloquently. Made me feel like I am not alone and not unique (or crazy?). Somehow knowing this is enough for me to hit the pause button.
Hi Hopeful,
Good effort for reaching out here.
“seriously, how is it possible that a three word reply from LO could send one down such a convoluted rabbit hole of unwanted & obsessive thoughts?”
Oh, it’s possible alright! Nearly everyone reading your post will relate.
Please tell us a bit more about your limerence situation if and when it would ever be helpful to you. Lots of folk here can help.
To Hopeful:
It’s good to have somebody to talk to. I have been posting here for about five months and I can really see where it is helping my progress.
I hope you stick around.
Thank you Norma & LaR.
I wonāt go into details here but my story is nothing special. (Married limerent, LO is co-worker.)
My LE has been on (with varying degrees of intensity) for almostā¦ like 3 years (typing this out seems so unbelievably long?!). Iāve been lurking on this website since my LE started in full bloom and it was here that I first knew about this term – limerence. It feels like Iām finally seen or heard and kinda explains so much. Whatās so amazing is thereās never judgement, always so much empathy and kind words that this community has dished out.
In any case, Iāve failed rather spectacularly recently. Just when I thought Iām riding this wave out, it just blew up epicly to the point that I nearly disclosed to LO.
Past couple of days Iāve been crying (wailing at times) and grieving- I know in my head I need to go NC but my heart is so so reluctant!
Thank God my SO is not probing and so trusting. He would just hold me and shower me with his affection.
Why does LO have such a hold over me? Did I really need his validation? At times I see him as a egotistical person who needed me for his emotions outlet. At times I felt so seen and understood by him.
I saw the youtube clip Dr L put out recently about being limerent for co-workers and he touched on Staged Withdrawal. I wonder how I can have an effective strategy for doing this. (Yet even as Iām thinking about this Iām tearing as I still donāt want to let goā¦ why is is so hard?)
I just had multiple false-alarm “sightings” of LO’s car in the parking lot at Starbucks.
I have become so delusional, I now cannot tell the difference between LO’s Mercedes sedan and a Tesla. Bizarrely, there were THREE dark-blue Teslas in the parking lot at the same time. I thought they were all LO.
I made a point of going at a time when LO does not go, but I got just as rattled, maybe more, than I usually do.
I am keeping myself away from him by using a combination of fear and anger. I don’t really think this is the best strategy; however, it is working.
I would much prefer to be indifferent.
Indifference is tantamount to acceptance in the 5 Stages of Grief.
It takes awhile to get there.
Look on the bright side. You’re past Denial, don’t seem to be Bargaining, you don’t seem overly Depressed, and you’re flirting with Anger.
You’re right on track. It’s gotta play out. Stay the course!
To L.E.:
I thought Anger was supposed to come before Depression?
I am angry AND depressed. And fearful. I remind myself of LO’s irrational outbursts whenever I am tempted to contact him. He has taught me that he is unpredictable and will lash out without provocation.
I don’t think I was ever in Denial.
ND,
The 5 stages are different for different people. They aren’t linear and you can go back and forth between stages.
My recovery was delayed because I wouldn’t allow myself to be angry. Once, I did, it didn’t take too long to get to acceptance.
It took a therapist to convince me that I had every right to be angry with certain people. The therapist also said that forgiving them was another matter entirely.
Letting go of grudges was a big breakthrough on the road to indifference.
To L.E.:
I have no problem being angry. I have a lot of difficulty with forgiveness.
Hi Bewitched,
have you had your meeting with LO yet?
Just wondering.
Dear Mila,
Thank you for asking. I have indeed met LO in person now. I am still digesting it. As you know, our in-person dynamics are super-charged, compared with virtual interactions that are much more mundane. If I had to characterise this latest series of encounters, I would overall say it was “very warm” on both sides. As planned, I paid attention to my own reactions as well as his. For myself, I did feel a small ‘charge’ around him but, because I was exposed to him all day and all evening over several days, it was easy to partly ignore it. I was pleased with my own progress. Although I have been thinking more than usual about him since, it has not been intrusive, like it was in the past. I even turned down an invite to dinner on one of the days, though I was out with a group including LO on several other evenings. I did feel as though he treated me with special attention (offering me his arm, his coat, etc), which is a bit dangerous for me. I also noticed that we talked more normally than we ever have one-to-one before because its always been way too nervy in the past (on my side perhaps on both sides). Overall, the intensity has come way down, but there is definitely still something there – but its not happening, ever.
Does that explain it š
Do I come across as delusional?
š š§,
You come across normal and as lovely as everā¼ļø
Very glad to hear about your not-so-super-charged reunion with you LOā¦ Ahhhā¦ it sounds so delicious to take that armā¦ š
Hi Bewitched,
Gosh, it’s so strange that Mila asked this of you today, as I had an encounter ( associate of LO) that got me thinking just earlier today š¤ about how your encounter went!
Im glad you were (and still seem) under full control and not ruminating or missing him.
And ‘very warm’ is a good temperature, no more. Maybe you had the right amount of exposure to get to that level calm place with him. This is a key issue I recognise in my LE. Declining a dinner is a great indicator.
I guess you will always have that “something” between you and that is quite special that you both can quietly savour without pursuing it or dissecting it. I’m very glad for you.
“… (offering me his arm, his coat, etc), which is a bit dangerous for me.”
As Snow says, how delicious and highly dangerous that is. Swoon!
Dear Snow, Imho, LaR and Mila,
Thanks for your feedback and reassurance that I am not delusional(!)
I already knew that my own head was screwed back on, after being off my rocker for years over this guy. What slightly worried me, I am not proud to admit it, was that I would feel upset if he was cooled down completely. I wanted some recognition, but at a manageable level. I guess something that matched what I feel, which is that this was something that would have been nice to explore, had we both been free. And to feel recognition that there is/ was something there, just a little bit. The narrative I tell myself is a romantic tale of “it might have been somsthing, had things been different”, but without major regrets of any sort. I think that is what I got (if that makes sense?)
LaR and Imho, you both zoned-in on exactly this.
@Imho
“And āvery warmā is a good temperature, no more. Maybe you had the right amount of exposure to get to that level calm place with him. This is a key issue I recognise in my LE. Declining a dinner is a great indicator”
It was warm, very warm, and maybe even slightly wistful, but no more. There wasnt the *longing* that there used to be. I think the reason was that I was somehow confident in my recovery. I am just a but happier in my life than I was when I was addicted to him.
How are you doing, Imho (still recovering or suffering from the radio silence?).
@Snow
“Very glad to hear about your not-so-super-charged reunion with you LOā¦ Ahhhā¦ it sounds so delicious to take that armā¦Ā ”
Yes it was – and he did throw me into the air at one point. I can confirm that it was all delicious. I should write a novel about it (my imagination is certainly fertile enough). But, more seriously, I know that I am happy and fulfilled without LO in my life on a daily basis.
@LaR
I hope that the over-exposure to your (x)LO is not a slippery slope. I never like the sound of increased ruminations (doing a bit more than usual, myself since my intense encounter) because sometimes we think that we are more in control than we really are. Ruminations are the canary in the coalmine.
But I also know how awful it felt to be in the mawl of limerence’s clutch and I know that I never want to go back there. This is mainly about self-preservation!! So I refuse to go there again. Delicious or not.
You know all of this more than than any of us as you have analysed the situation inside-out. I hope you and Imho are both rehabilitated or getting there. Snow, I have no worries about as she seems such a happy bunny these days :))
š³ I got a new emoji: š š° on Earth! Thank you š š§āļø
I hope youāre not hinting that Iām going to multiple in someways soon, producing more š° š° š°ā¦ š¤£š¤Ŗ
Hi Bewitched,
you donāt sound delusional at all, but you never did! You always seem to have a clear sight on the state of things, which is admirable.
āBut I also know how awful it felt to be in the mawl of limerenceās clutch and I know that I never want to go back there. This is mainly about self-preservation!! So I refuse to go there again.ā
Yes, thatās something I experienced too in my last LE. Too many negative emotions connected to this LE finally led to ānot anymoreā.
āThe narrative I tell myself is a romantic tale of āit might have been somsthing, had things been differentā, but without major regrets of any sort. I think that is what I got (if that makes sense?)ā
And this is something Iāve got with LO2, together with the knowledge that we might not have matched well. actually thatās my favorite way to get out of an LE;)- to believe there was something mutual, we grew out of it but are still special persons to each other. Might be delusional, but I donāt think so in this case.
It sounds very good to my ears!
Congratulations! I think itās normal to ruminate more for a while, just like I did after that business trip, but with me, this feeling of ānot any moreā was strong and I went back to it quite soon.
āHow are you doing, Imho (still recovering or suffering from the radio silence?).ā
I would like to know too!
Hi Bewitched, Mila,
Thanks for inquiring.
Radio silence continues. It’s still tough but gotta get better with time, I am sure.
I recently received a full LO update from the associate who is in regular contact with him ( pff! ).
The surprise encounter with the associate did trigger me quite a lot, all those feelings rising, as we only really know each other due to the mutual connection with LO.
And I am very sure the associate will update LO on our encounter, if not already done so.
Therefore, I am on high alert that LO may reach out as a consequence. Yet I am trying not to be expectant or hoping for it.
The associate wants to stay in more regular contact with me too now (so they said) which could be dangerous in many ways, so I’m going to be cool about actually doing that.
Wishing a great week for everyone.
Hi Imho,
ādangerous in many waysā, what do you mean by that?
I see that it might be limerence-inducing to hear too much about LO, but in which other ways?
Maybe try to turn off the high alert- just go on as usual, not expecting much, and if heāll contact you itāll be nice surprise, and if not, then itās nothing newā¦
I wish you a good start into the week!š
Thanks Mila,
I am not sure his motives if you know what I mean.
He maybe seeking some of the attention he knows I have for LO.
I do not know, it’s just a feeling.
And yes you are right, I’m trying to just carry on as before and be indifferent to the silence.
I need to be productive this week ! šŖš»š
Hi Imho,
āI am not sure his motives if you know what I mean.
He maybe seeking some of the attention he knows I have for LO.
I do not know, itās just a feeling.ā
I usually experienced that these vague gut feelings are true, or at least an indication of something going on, even if it might not be dramatic and he himself not conscious of it.. better trust your reflex of not engaging with that too much!
I wish you energy and luck for the week!š«¶š»(for a changeš)
Dear Imho,
I would be so triggered by coming into contact with someone who I only knew through LO. If I had been NC for a long time and if on top of all that, there had been a strong change in circumstances (LO’s abrupt departure), that would totally mess with my composure, so I get how this would feel. I think this type of scenario has occurred to me in the past, in fact but it always calmed down again after a few days / weeks. The expectation that LO *might* reach out and feeling of being on red alert also calmed, with a little bit of time. Mila’s advice to trust your gut is good. Your gut doesnt let you down, I think? The adrenaline of talking to this mutual contact with LOs name never far off anyone’s lips seems like a thin line to tread (anxiety-wise). You may be conscious that person may be trying to read your thoughts, etc?
It all sounds very uncomfortable.
You will have a short while of feeling extra sensitive, then it will fade. The distractions (incl work productivity) sound ideal! But enjoy Summer too, if you can. Its a long Winter so we need to grab it when Summer comes!
Sending all my very best, Imho šš½š
Bewitched,
thank you as always for your thoughts and you describe the whole situation so perfectly (better than me) as if you were there !
It seems you also had a similar experience in the past too.
I am still processing the surprise encounter.
The associate even suggested LO, me and him should arrange a get together at an event. Unlikely, yet still triggering !
You are right, I think he was probably probing on my thoughts. He is the only person who knows of something, so I tried to appear cool and calm.
How much LO has shared with him I don’t know, yet I kind of also want to know.
Anyway, it’s all futile and needs to not be my main thought topic anymore and we need to make the most of this summer. Absolutely, you are right on that.
I think CSC once
said “not another spring or summer to be wasted on an LO ” or similar wording.
š š» Funny you used this emoji, I just painted my nails to stop me biting them !
Best wishes always š„ š
Hi fabulous Bewitched,
I think you can be very pleased with your progress here, my good lady!!
“Overall, the intensity has come way down, but there is definitely still something there ā but its not happening, ever.”
If you can just let all parts of that just ‘be there’ without it being intrusive to you, it can be fine, right? Even a bit nice?
With these bits below you could be inadvertently picking the words to describe most of the last two months of the LE for me too:
“If I had to characterise this latest series of encounters, I would overall say it was āvery warmā on both sides
[…]
it has not been intrusive, like it was in the past”
That was most of the time – maybe 6 weeks out of 2 months. It is interesting what you say about large amounts of exposure making it easier for you to ignore. That sometimes applies to me too. But in the last couple of weeks I’ve had real over-exposure (even by my standards) and that’s set me back a bit. I’ve had my worst ruminations for many months as a result, after thinking I was rid of that and being without it for some time.
However, I’m confident I can extricate myself much more easily this time, as my DoH feels like it has stayed intact so there is not all that to go through again.
You don’t have the permanent overexposure danger, but I’m glad the level you had dialled it down, not up!
Well done on all this āŗļø
Hi LaR,
I think once DoH or what I called ādonāt want to go there any moreā is installed, there might be wobbles and spells of rumination and experiences of attraction (after all, there are real persons/connections and feelings involved, nothing to simply switch off like an oven or similar), but something has shifted for good and balance will establish itself towards ānot anymoreāor DoH again after a while. For me, it was like the critical mass of negative connotations was finally reached and then the weight of it pulled me slowly back towards ānoā.
The question is maybe, if the critical mass is reached in your case or not.
But it sounds as if you are already recovering.
I am having a slow, dreary July 4th. I have a lot of difficulty with holidays due to my health problems.
I may have mentioned that I am forced to spend much of my time alone due to debilitating myalgic encephalomyelitis. I can get around some, but I have to be careful not to push myself.
It’s days like these that it is particularly tempting to reach out to LO. I am doing okay so far, but I could use some encouragement.
Hi Norma D,
Sorry you are struggling. Can you reach out to another friend, just a nice message to wish them a happy July 4th and suggest a call.
Maybe indulge in a little at home spa luxury bath and beauty with a little glass of something strong and some chocolates.
I also find some talk Radio stations give nice company when I am on my own, much better than television.
These big day celebrations often put undue pressure that everyone is supposed to be having the best time ever, of course the reality is very different for many.
To Imho:
Part of my health problem is that I can’t drink. I had to turn down Adam’s generous offer of sake for that reason.
Talk radio sounds like a great idea.
Yes, so true. Count me with that creul reality. My 4th was spent trying to keep Dad comfortable and cool, while I wrapped my brain around the overwhelming amount of work I need to do around his house. Which is time consuming and unfulfilling. I want nothing to do with the place and have a home of my own I can hardly keep up with.
Not trying to whine, but the only good thing to come from it is, it’s a great way to take my mind off my lack of relationship with someone. Once I get into a groove, I seem to do better. It’s just trying to give myself the impetus to get started is what’s hard..
Hi MJ , you are doing your best. We are doing our best.
I did lots of work on a close relatives house/garden today with so much still needed it’s overwhelming; when my own place is in just as much need.
I really don’t enjoy any of it but I keep trying to think of the positives, however small they are, the clearing helps keep me fit, the caring improves my empathy, dealing with challenges on their care makes me more resilient etc
And it’s a distraction from relationship issues and LE ruminations.
Keep on keeping on MJ ! šŖš»
Thank you Imho.
You’re very right about everything. I have good days where I get stuff done, but it never feels like enough and I think it’s just because theres still so much to do. It is a great way though to keep my mind off other things.
Getting there, ever so slowly..
Dear Norma D,
I would like to wish you a peaceful 4th of July. I am sorry that you are struggling. I hope that it improves – it can be just another day if you want to think about it that way. And of all yo mates are busy with family today, know that your internet friends value you very much.
Bx
To Bewitched:
Thank you! I appreciate your support so much!
Please give me your best tips and coping methods after going NC.
Day one starts now.
I take inspiration from the book, “No Mud, No Lotus” by Buddhist Monk, Thich Nhat Hanh. He teaches simple breathing exercises when you’re feeling panicky.
In the mornings, especially, I feel anxious and want to reach out to LO. Focus on your breathing and say to yourself, “I breathe in. I breathe out.”
I focus on my breathing until the panicky feelings subside.
Good luck. You’re not alone.
Hello DesperatelySeekingSupport and welcome.
Have you looked at the Blog Archive on the menu section here ?
Check it out and search for ‘no contact’ . There are a few blogs with comments from the community with some great tips in there too. Using your time reading all of that may help, especially in the early days to establish your own strategy.
feel free to keep posting here, it may help too.
Lady Marcia,
Iām moving our long chats here ā
[āLetās have some compassion for them. šŖ· ā
āØNah. ]
š¤ Ahhhā¦ where is your sense of Christianity? None left?
āI understand. I did try to get to know a couple of relatives better as people, but it was like talking to the wall. I gave up.ā
I have a cousin (from Mom side -Ms) living in the Midwest, who was MD trained in COO, and her strong E traits literally turned me off each time I saw herā¦ Worse than my Dad, she could not stop loudly blahing, blahing with laughters like a āknow-it-allā in all our family gatheringsā¦.
She can be empathetic, but I just donāt want to deal with that type of energy. My other cousin (Ms) living in CA, is an introvert, a goose-mother type, who loves good literature. So we talk sometime about our reflections on books, although she and her Hubbie support Trump.
āItās not so much trying to be equals as it is trying to get to know them beyond the roles they play in your life. ā
Not in COO. Older generation does not want younger one to know them as individuals, but just obey their rules/orders/wishes. In this regard, I can speak for the majority over thereāļø
āWell, thatās why. She interpreted (wrongly) that your questions were coming with accusations. So she KNOWS she wasnāt a good parent. ā
She interpreted most of questions as accusations, thatās how defensive and insecure she IS or a Narc can be! No, she does not acknowledge sheās not a good parent. Based on the cultural script over there, she thinks she did nothing wrong, probably better than some other mothers. When guests or relatives come over, she pretended to be warm and everything else she was NOT; thus outsiders, including her siblings and all my cousins, all think sheās āgoodāā¦ š
āThatās too bad it squelched personality. ā
Thatās the biggest devil in communism in my opinion š¤« ā¦ COO is strengthening its grip on this.
āCheck out āEroticaā An Illustrated Anthology of Sexual Art and LiteratureāØI will look into it. ā
I think youāll like it, because it has collected the best excerpts, no photos, just paintings, drawings, metal scratching, etc. really existed in the history.
āI read Anais Ninās journals. She had an affair with him, and he wasnāt rough in person with her. I think he even said that to her after they first had sex. āāYou expected someone rougher.ā She had read his writing. ā
Ahhh! No wonder weāre INFP sisters! I have Ninās early journals, short stories, and the DVD, āHenry and Juneāā¦ Her name appeared in one of my poemsā¦ Without her influence, Iād become a 100% Tomboy or Amazon Warrior āļøā¦. Iāll apply her ātricks š¤” ā on a BP ā Believed Person, if I could ever find one in the future š
āTo an extent, but I have made friends with people who rarely if ever want to get together or cancel when we have plans. I eventually give up. ā
I used COOās testing principle: either one stays in or permanently out after 3 ānaturalā trails/tests (not manmade). Making and keeping friends is all about sticking to what makes one and each other to feel respected, empathized and integrated, yet RELAXED ā non-defensive.
āNo one has ever asked, āWhat kind of support do you need?ā
I get what youāre saying here. Some of my friends had such an intention, but they were incapable. No one else is adequate enough to support my/our constant EVOLVING mental or emotional needs, maybe a tiny portion. Only our SELF can do such a job!
Millions, especially limerents, have sought and still seek such supports outside themselves. You canāt expect or make anyone else to dance your ever-changing, creative, beautiful dancing steps or moves. From a Stoic point of view, itās futile!
āIāll remember peoplesā general stories about their lives but I donāt exert the effort to remember the details. Weāre not close enough for me to do that. ā
I donāt need to āexertā extra efforts. As long as I pay attention in listening, some story details (of colorful people) would just stick in my mind effortlessly.
āWeāll use āfriendship beam.ā That being said, I like her but I canāt see becoming close. Not enough of an emotional connection. ā
Thatās a pity! Iāve encountered more superficial āfriendship beamā, considering my exotic cultural background. People habitually make assumptions and stereotype other ethnicities. Itās so hard in our middle-age to be hit by a friendship beam that would keep beaming and lastā¦.
[āFrom Glimmer to interaction/romance takes some time.āāØI donāt think it has to. Even if youāre trying to establish a friendship first, you can start that right away.]
That was what happened in my previous 6 + halves LE flavored interactions/romances; nothing took more than 2 months to happen, except deep emotional connections, which simply could not be achieved within a couple of months.
āI am trying to slow things down and get to know men before anything physical happens. The issue then becomes ā¦ does the attraction diminish? Because you know more. You canāt project as much! HA HA HA (Thatās a laugh of futility.)ā
I think It benefits us more when we take time to savor themā¦ You pay more attention to physical dimensions, I emotional and mental. So to me, oneās attraction grow with time, not diminish. You seek mysteries, I familiars, comforts, and deeper connections. No jugement here, perhaps your physical energy drives and leads the way you prefer in dealing with romance.
āWhy would you want to get rid of it? Thereās nothing like it and it doesnāt last, so ride the train while you can. ā
I did not say to get rid of such a desire, but tone it down to a non-agitating level. A reckless, speedy train ride only leads to crazy shakies or crushes, Who does not like a safe, leisure, enjoyable train ride that lastāļø Realistically, I canāt take roller- coaster rides or the huge swing in any amusement park; tried them which made me terribly dizzy and wanna throw up.
āThatās true. Or just donāt spend every waking minute together. Have some outside activities/friends. I canāt miss you if you never go away. ā
Exactly! And both sides continue learning new things independently or together, keeping growing and evolving in all sorts of attractive wayāļø Here, friendship, with breathable space, is a must!
āItās the Sheryl Crowe song. āItās not having what you want. Itās wanting what youāve got.āā
Even better said than Buddhism or Stoicismā¼ļø
āExactly. Thatās the root cause of limerence. A desire for the new. For the unknown. Even if two people have been friends for a while, theyāre not known to each other romantically.ā
Everyone is a unique universe, which has infinity for another/others to explore, travel through, and connect withā¦
āIt was disgusting. Such an ostentatious display of wealth when so many people are suffering. ā
Totally agree. I donāt read any news about him, although very aware of the protests against his exploration on Amazon employees. I have friends who refuse to buy anything from amazon.
āI wasnāt talking about that. Iām saying ā¦ on paper, they donāt make sense. Sheās, frankly, a little tacky. She looks like an ex-dancer. But there must be a part of him that likes that. Sheās drawing out another side of him. ā
Sister, not mean to disrespect here, Iāve got worrisome stuff on my plate, and up to this date, I donāt know who he or she is, and have little interest to find out. My gut feeling is just to ignore those celebrityās life; there is little/no logic in their wasteful lifestyle and behaviorsš¤
āI donāt know that a person can ever completely get rid of a feeling of restlessness. ā
š absolutely YES and YESā¼ļø Iāve seen and sensed it in Granny, Dad, and some of my distance friends, and now my SELF. š Once you get there, you will know what it is like.
āI mean, it depends on the person and to what degree, but thereās always some level of an internal battle between security and novelty, between safety and risk.ā
Your view comes from your upbringing in the āfreeā West and its cultural scripts. If you grew under Big Brotherās scary and punitive nose, where (in)tangible Room 101 exist(ed) in every realistic or metaphorical corner of the society, youād want safety and security above any or all novelties! šØ
You havenāt profoundly understood or appreciated your privileges, Sister! I could imagine and understand your sense of novelty on paper. But with the profound impact of my childhood trauma, I cannot and will not pursue such kind of novelty.
Iām content (not šÆ) where I am now and have a lot to giveā¦ š
Lady Snow,
“š¤ Ahhhā¦ where is your sense of Christianity? None left?”
Dried up. š
“I have a cousin (from Mom side -Ms) living in the Midwest, who was MD trained in COO, and her strong E traits literally turned me off each time I saw herā¦ Worse than my Dad, she could not stop loudly blahing, blahing with laughters like a āknow-it-allā in all our family gatheringsā¦.
She can be empathetic, but I just donāt want to deal with that type of energy. … ”
Just because it’s a family member doesn’t mean they’ll be a connection. At least in the West, we’re sold a load of goads about family being so supportive and loving. It’s not always the case.
“Not in COO. Older generation does not want younger one to know them as individuals, but just obey their rules/orders/wishes.”
That’s too bad. You’ll never get to know them as people.
“She interpreted most of questions as accusations, thatās how defensive and insecure she IS or a Narc can be!”
I would just assume someone getting defensive has some kind of understanding, even if it’s not entirely conscious, of their behavior.
” Iāll apply her ātricks š¤” ā on a BP ā Believed Person, if I could ever find one in the future š”
She did have a lot of intense affairs.
” Making and keeping friends is all about sticking to what makes one and each other to feel respected, empathized and integrated, yet RELAXED ā non-defensive.”
I’m not sure what you mean, but I don’t have interest in being someone’s text buddy. So if they never want to meet up, I put a lot less energy into the friendship.
“No one else is adequate enough to support my/our constant EVOLVING mental or emotional needs, maybe a tiny portion. Only our SELF can do such a job!”
It would be nice if they asked. Being supportive is supporting someone as they need it. Not in the way the giver wants to give it.
“I donāt need to āexertā extra efforts. As long as I pay attention in listening, some story details (of colorful people) would just stick in my mind effortlessly.”
I don’t have that skill. I’ll remember general details, but if it’s someone I talk to every now and then … no, I won’t remember all that much. It’s too much energy to invest in a mid-level or lower friendship.
“Thatās a pity! Iāve encountered more superficial āfriendship beamā, considering my exotic cultural background. People habitually make assumptions and stereotype other ethnicities. ”
I’m not sure what you mean. What kind of assumptions?
This woman I wrote about … I genuinely like her and she has been good to me. I hope I’ve been good to her. But she can be extremely abrupt/rude. And there are important things I’d need to talk about if we were closer that she pretty much made clear she has zero interest in. Doesn’t mean I’m not going to spend time with her or be friends. I’ve just adjusted my expectations.
“That was what happened in my previous 6 + halves LE flavored interactions/romances; nothing took more than 2 months to happen, except deep emotional connections, which simply could not be achieved within a couple of months.”
I’m not sure what we’re talking about here. If I met a guy I was attracted to (because I’m like you, I need there to be an attraction — or glimmer — there right away) … what would be stopping me from getting to know him as a friend? I mean, if I wanted to slow things down so I got to know him as a person before anything physical happened.
“No jugdement here, perhaps your physical energy drives and leads the way you prefer in dealing with romance.”
Well, I’m rethinking all of that. Having retired my job as the entertainment for the evening. š
“Who does not like a safe, leisure, enjoyable train ride that lastāļø”
I find them kind of dull. š I’m teasing a little. There has to be a happy medium between diving off the cliff and moving at the pace of a snail. š
“Exactly! And both sides continue learning new things independently or together, keeping growing and evolving in all sorts of attractive wayāļø Here, friendship, with breathable space, is a must!”
It also gives you something to talk about. New things each of you is doing that you can share with each other.
[āItās the Sheryl Crowe song. āItās not having what you want. Itās wanting what youāve got.āā]
“Even better said than Buddhism or Stoicismā¼ļø”
It’s a great line.
“Totally agree. I donāt read any news about him, although very aware of the protests against his exploration on Amazon employees. I have friends who refuse to buy anything from amazon.”
Don’t get me started on how he treats his employees. It’s disgusting.
“Sister, not mean to disrespect here, Iāve got worrisome stuff on my plate, and up to this date, I donāt know who he or she is, and have little interest to find out. My gut feeling is just to ignore those celebrityās life; there is little/no logic in their wasteful lifestyle and behaviorsš¤”
You asked for an example of someone enacting their illogical side out by their choice of a romantic partner. He is who I thought of, as we don’t have mutual acquittances/friends in common I can refer to.
“š absolutely YES and YESā¼ļø Iāve seen and sensed it in Granny, Dad, and some of my distance friends, and now my SELF. š Once you get there, you will know what it is like.”
I’m not entirely sure I want to get rid of all of it. The feeling pushes and motivates you.
“You havenāt profoundly understood or appreciated your privileges, Sister! ”
Well, I couldn’t understand your upbringing. Just as you couldn’t understand mine. We could actually have grown up in the same house and have had very different experiences.
Lady Marcia š š ,
Iām combining your two posts here to respondā¦
āJust because itās a family member doesnāt mean theyāll be a connection. At least in the West, weāre sold a load of goads about family being so supportive and loving. Itās not always the case. ā
Yes, Iāve seen a lot of superficiality in family here, but also some deeper connections. In COO, forget about making equal friends with other generations, except your peers.
āThatās too bad. Youāll never get to know them as people. ā
Correct. But since the culture is like that, I didnāt think Iād missed much until I left there and came hereā¦ I wish I knew Granny and Dad more like people, not just caregiver.
āI would just assume someone getting defensive has some kind of understanding, even if itās not entirely conscious, of their behavior. ā
Your assumption makes sense definitely in the Western culture; but Iām not sure whether it applied in a nation that is so ignorant/oblivious of psychology and has been filled with commonly shared collective insecurity, as well as profound personal insecurity, because of its political system, where people, friends, and family members could turn against each other under one governmental call, and you end up in youth camp, labor camp, exile, or unknown deathā¦
Sister, youāve got to read ā1984ā to understand better personal and collective psychology of a commie system. Otherwise, your assumptions or understandings are limited only in the West. And with my limited words, Iād never explain enough during my lifetime.
My parents knew what it was like before the communists took over, so the traumatic horror could be bigger to them than the following generations, who was born in the same system and knew nothing no better/worse. We took everything for granted, whether itās evil or good ā āitās way it is!ā
āShe did have a lot of intense affairs. ā
Thatās why her journals are not pornographic, but deeply psychological and erotic;, and thatās what made her journals sticking out and becoming famous world-wide, while no one elseās journals made it to the literature market!
āIām not sure what you mean, but I donāt have interest in being someoneās text buddy. So if they never want to meet up, I put a lot less energy into the friendship. ā
Of course, not. My ideal or principles have to be working in two-way traffic. Your texts must have been somewhat validating to those insincere people; otherwise, why would someone just wanna text for no reasonsāļø
āIt would be nice if they asked. Being supportive is supporting someone as they need it. Not in the way the giver wants to give it. ā
A lot of people HERE are self-centered, eager to express their feelings, thoughts, or wants but listen to others superficially. Truly mature and caring people would listen carefully to what you say or wish to get from your mutual friendship. Thatās why I highly appreciate keen ears. And I know clearly whether they have truly listened to or heard me ā just check trivial details/facts.
āI donāt have that skill. Iāll remember general details, but if itās someone I talk to every now and then ā¦ no, I wonāt remember all that much. Itās too much energy to invest in a mid-level or lower friendship.ā
Remember, I have a mental OCD? I couldnāt even help ruminate, or remember what others have said, regardless who said them. Itās not everything that everyone has said, but something that struck a cord in my mind, or caused my reflections/thoughts/sentiments, then what they said became a part of āmy thingsā, my memory.
āIām not sure what you mean. What kind of assumptions?ā
Some people assumed that I can play kung fu; some asked whether I liked orange chicken with broccoli; some assume that I knew all excellent COO restaurants (when I eat out, Iād try anything else besides COO food), some assumed I was coy or docile, willing to follow their lead, some assumed that I translated everything I heard and said from English šCOO and back forthā¦ ā these were from some ethnically idiot dates. š
āØ āBut she can be extremely abrupt/rude. And there are important things Iād need to talk about if we were closer that she pretty much made clear she has zero interest in. Doesnāt mean Iām not going to spend time with her or be friends. Iāve just adjusted my expectations. ā
Perhaps everyone has their own aversions or annoying triggers in some aspects of life, so theyāre (sub)consciously avoiding them (like celebrity in general to me). But there is no need to be āabrupt/rudeā. Iād do the same as you, just adjust my expectations and topics, and lay my friendship-eggs in different baskets.
āIām not sure what weāre talking about here. ā
I mean you meet an available guy who glimmered for you, it would not need tons to time to get on each otherās bed. But to feel emotionally and mentally connected with them with trust takes time. Just look at what Trifles is doing with his MRā¦.
If I met a guy I was attracted to (because Iām like you, I need there to be an attraction ā or glimmer ā there right away) ā¦ what would be stopping me from getting to know him as a friend? I mean, if I wanted to slow things down so I got to know him as a person before anything physical happened.ā
Getting to know a bunch of facts is not what you mean here, right? But to build/weave a genuine friendship tie takes time in a natural pace. Itās not signing a business contract, right? See misunderstandings and crisis Trifles is having with her beau.
āWell, Iām rethinking all of that. Having retired my job as the entertainment for the evening. ā
I donāt blame you. š We have so little ideas who are listening hereā¦ š§
[āWho does not like a safe, leisure, enjoyable train ride that lastāāØI find them kind of dull. ]
There is analogy that from birth to death, everyone is taking a train š of life: we get on one and off another; we switch from one kind to another at different times of lifeā¦ which is all understandable. But some people constantly hop on and off š , thinking one š is boring and another š fascinating; then after getting on it realizes itās not all that different ā the scenery is more or less same, the train š service is more or less same, it becomes monotonous whether itās steam engined or TGV.
But Romanticism tells you (collective) the best š should be a roller-coaster ride, so everyone wants to get on that š shaking and spinning until their heart want to jump out of the chest š„. Then, such a train š often makes oneās head š§ š or stomach š¤® , or the š spins off the railroad ā crush, crush, crushāļø
ā Iām teasing a little. There has to be a happy medium between diving off the cliff and moving at the pace of a snail. ā
Iāll take TGV or even old fashioned steam š
āIt also gives you something to talk about. New things each of you is doing that you can share with each other. ā
Precisely! š¤ I might prefer this kind of profound friendship than a swirling romance, which is involved mysteries and unknownsā¦ š§
āYou asked for an example of someone enacting their illogical side out by their choice of a romantic partner. He is who I thought of, as we donāt have mutual acquittances/friends in common I can refer to.ā
Yes, it was me who asked. By synchronicity, I saw the coupleās picture yesterday when I was reading another piece of news, and I totally agree with you that I have no clue why Bozos married a āBimboā! Maybe she has a bit that WAY with menā¦.
[āIāve seen and sensed it in Granny, Dad, and some of my distance friends, and now my SELF. Once you get there, you will know what it is like.āāØIām not entirely sure I want to get rid of all of it. The feeling pushes and motivates you. ]
There is something underneath of that Longing that still motivates and pushes you without that agony. Your youth fountain, carefree joy, and lasting vitality may all lie beneath such anguish longering. You donāt know yet whatās hidden below, Sister!
āWell, I couldnāt understand your upbringing. Just as you couldnāt understand mine. We could actually have grown up in the same house and have had very different experiencesā
I do understand yours because I was in your shoes before and also lived in both cultures. But you (collective) never lived in my old culture so would not know how to appreciate enough what you already have, but chase that evasive luring phantom š«„ in romance, without profound friendship/camaraderie affection.
āSo you like the sound better than the sight of the fireworks?
Yes. The sight of the fireworks gets repetitious and boring within 10 minutes. But the heaven-shaking sound always strikes various cords in oneās soul, like drumming in music.
āI meant in your quest for brevity. ā
Thatās challenge even to a native speaker. But while brevity makes messages across more effectively, it donāt arose imagination enough. Juicy and colorful adjectives are needed in deeper conversations and bonding dialogues. We canāt talk like journalists all the time with barebones facts and statements.
āWeāre conditioned to believe that male writers are more important. ā
True. But by proportion, there are simply, many more male writersā works are published and thus made bigger influence farer and longer. Virginia Woolf digs out the root of such phenomenon in her, āA Room of Oneās Ownā. Those classical female authors are truly remarkable and fortunate to be able to write within limited means and social restrictions.
āIn theory, yes. Anything can happen. But Iād say most of life is fairly mundane. ā
You can make such conclusion at the end of the day, but not in the beginning. Animals and flowers donāt question, they just live and bloom when the Sun rises each day ā thatās the spirit I sensed in Granny and Dad, not that they had no brain.
āAnd predictable. For example, I went to a little party this evening. I had a nice time and Iām glad I went. I enjoyed talking to people. But did it compare to waiting for LO-lite to show up for our little visit? Ah, no, not even close. Thereās most of life and then there are these moments that make you feel fantastically alive that you wonāt forget. ā
Well, Iād appreciate the party just as what it meant to be, not to be like āLO-liteā showing up. If every event is like LO-lite showing up, youād be bored to pluck your hair out! Without darkness, what would be light? Nowadays, Longing š, I feel alive all the time with more laughters and touched tears (they come out easier finally). but of course, not HIGH ā your sense of āfantastically aliveā
āI can emotionally connect to men who are more feminine. But they donāt turn me on as much sexually. ā
It seems that your sexuality is purely related to physical being with that glimmer; mine (was) would be increased with emotional and mental connections ā the body and the mind in the same tone and united forceā¼ļø
āIād say so, yes. Iām not really talking about sex here. I had a childhood friend who was very comfortable around men. She had a couple of older and a couple of younger brothers. She knew how to talk to men, she was very flirtatious, cute. I donāt remember her being without a serious boyfriend. ā
Yes, she sounded like having the advantage of growing up among men. But my abstract-painter x-mother-in-law is a single child, introvert, independent , impeccably elegant and tasteful in the old-fashioned way. She had a way with men, too; my lady-friend (who will have a surgery) also has a way with men, both single or married. Iām fascinated by both of them!
āThatās probably true. I think itās probably been 20 years since Iāve met a professional. Twenty years ago, I would have said yes in a heartbeat. ā
I would have never said āyesā probably due to my childhood trauma. Iām not sure whether Iāve ever met your type of āprofessionalā, I simply avoided eye contact as soon as I sensed that āwild wolfā in them.
āYou think your LO was a professional? I donāt think my last LO was. I donāt think LO-lite is. ā
I donāt know! And I canāt guess it either. I donāt think a partnerās man could be, since their SO or LO most likely still flash in and out of their head, even (subconsciously) when their š is about to drop off. In theory, I donāt think they are able to be a professional, although with some amorous feelings attached. Remember Rhett Butler is šÆ into Scarletā¼ļø
āOh, no. These were a few years old. I sometimes look up limerence topics. Old posts. And I happen to see my name and read the posts and think ā¦ did I actually write that? ā
I know POSITIVELY that your sentiments here would be how Iād feel, so very much unwilling to go backā¦ I did save every piece post I rambled, thoughā¦ which made a part of my life, or my journey for nearly 2 years now. I do not trash my experiences ārecordedā or remembered in words.
āI have only been to a handful of countries outside of the states. And as a tourist for a short time. France was one of them, and I did not find the French rude at all. (Now, I obviously didnāt move there permanently.) I also thought the French men were very hot. ā
Well, I have native French Connection with women and men over decades, so Iāve heard plenty of their insightful complaints š¤ which as tourist, you wonāt hear. French men are sexy and savvyā¦ and their compliments of you in their eyes and indirect words are irresistibleāļøBut donāt believe theyāre truly sincere, theyāre brought that way š š
āThat would drive me nuts. An LO noticing other women. ā
Did I mentioned here enough that LO6 was a Narc and I punched his face with my drunk š· fistsšš»āļø Since he lived in my neighborhood, my gf also told me that he was seeing other Asian girls at the time we were dating; of course, he lied about them. After breaking up, I bumped him once within 3 years, We did not even say āhiā, but I felt very dizzy and nausea being disturbed. He sent me a linkedin invite immediately, which I only saw three months later (I rarely used that site). He exiled to Japan a decade ago probably for his fetish!
[āPossibly. I canāt figure out what theyāre getting out of reaching out to me.
āSis, you must be immensely Sexy! ā āØHuh? ]
Sis, youāre too modest! There must be something in you or your words that draw those superficial textsāļø
āA couple of them are work references so I maintain some contact. (I donāt care if that sounds selfish.) Or theyāre family members. Iām not going to cut them off but I wonāt exert a lot of effort. One of them was very good/helpful to me during a difficult time, and I havenāt forgotten that. So I will make a little chit chat over text. ā
I would keep those contacts. We canāt live in a modern cave just because we canāt find a Butler-lite professionals. Iād keep them as real people who once upon a time made some positive impact in my lifeā¦. Without them, our life became color-lessā¦
[āSis, what are your hobbies while not working crazilyāāØYou mean those that involve other people? ]
No I meant both, alone or with people.
āI think we have different views on this. You say youāre of the here and now, for example, on here. Thatās how I feel about relationships/friendships. Itās all about the here and now. If weāre not close now, weāre not close. ā
Yes, Iām fully here and now when Iām speaking with you. But when I am off line, I also had āthere and thenā friends in the past and in my memory. If they come in my mind at any given time, they become āhere and nowā although I may not even know where they are physically. I give more present time and mind to the past, thus āfound the lost mind and lost time (in limerence or in anything )āā¦
Our identity and life are made of (aside from working, daily living necessities) our thoughts, sentiments, and chosen memories, isnāt itāļø
āØāAre you talking about work buddies or friendly acquaintances? Sure. Thatās fine. ā
Yes. We canāt have our head always wrapped around xLO or LO-lite, right? Please appreciate and enjoy your existing male buddies. As Proust says (paraphrase): āDiscovery is not about always finding something or someone new, but look at the old ones with a new eye. ā
āIām not big on them, either. But I have gotten some help of late from the one I have now. ā
Thatās great! Use this opportunity with your therapist to dig your āstuffā out and let them go!
āWestern medicine is bad. ā
But there is little anything else to choose while treating terminal diseasesā¦
[You leave the LwL reptile family members all to meāš³
Youāre not required to watch them. ]
Thank Zeus š, there are choices hereā¦. š š
Lady Snow,
“Yes, Iāve seen a lot of superficiality in family here, but also some deeper connections. ”
There can be deeper connections but it’s not a guarantee. I get tired of hearing “family is everything.” Because sometimes it just isn’t.
“I wish I knew Granny and Dad more like people, not just caregiver.”
That’s what I meant. Getting to know them beyond the roles they played in your life.
“Sister, youāve got to read ā1984ā to understand better personal and collective psychology of a commie system. ”
I’m in the middle of reading something else. I’ll put it on the list.
“Otherwise, your assumptions or understandings are limited only in the West. ”
That’s where I’m from. The West. š
“My parents knew what it was like before the communists took over, so the traumatic horror could be bigger to them than the following generations”
What was the government before the communists? Was it better or worse?
“Thatās why her journals are not pornographic, but deeply psychological and erotic”
I agree. Is she a limerent? Wanting the security of marriage and the side LOs ? š
“Your texts must have been somewhat validating to those insincere people; otherwise, why would someone just wanna text for no reasonsāļø”
You got me! Depending on what they text me, sometimes I respond back with one sentence or just some emoji.
“A lot of people HERE are self-centered, eager to express their feelings, thoughts, or wants but listen to others superficially. Truly mature and caring people would listen carefully to what you say or wish to get from your mutual friendship. Thatās why I highly appreciate keen ears. ”
Well, some of this stuff is kind of advanced. I’m just reading about some of this, and I am not young. Love languages, etc.
“And I know clearly whether they have truly listened to or heard me ā just check trivial details/facts.”
It’s rare to find a good listener.
“Itās not everything that everyone has said, but something that struck a cord in my mind, or caused my reflections/thoughts/sentiments, then what they said became a part of āmy thingsā, my memory.”
Gotcha. I’m just aware of how much I knew about other friends in the past. I knew so much about their current lives, their pasts. I knew their stories. But it’s been a while since I’ve had a friend like that.
“Some people assumed that I can play kung fu; some asked whether I liked orange chicken with broccoli; some assume that I knew all excellent COO restaurants (when I eat out, Iād try anything else besides COO food), some assumed I was coy or docile, willing to follow their lead”
That is obnoxious.
“some assumed that I translated everything I heard and said from English šCOO and back forthā¦”
Now that is something I might have asked. Just to people who are bilingual. As I am not. I wouldn’t have asked to be obnoxious.
“Perhaps everyone has their own aversions or annoying triggers in some aspects of life, so theyāre (sub)consciously avoiding them (like celebrity in general to me).”
Celebrity talk isn’t important to me. If someone didn’t want to talk about it, I wouldn’t care. I meant a topic that was actually important to me and my life.
“But there is no need to be āabrupt/rudeā. Iād do the same as you, just adjust my expectations and topics, and lay my friendship-eggs in different baskets.”
Like I wrote, I genuinely like her. She is very smart and generous and helpful. She’s good at talking to people and sociable. But there’s the abruptness and the aversion to important topics.
“I mean you meet an available guy who glimmered for you, it would not need tons to time to get on each otherās bed.”
What do you mean by tons of time?
“But to feel emotionally and mentally connected with them with trust takes time. ”
Yes, that takes time.
“Getting to know a bunch of facts is not what you mean here, right?”
No
“But to build/weave a genuine friendship tie takes time in a natural pace. Itās not signing a business contract, right?”
Yes
“We have so little ideas who are listening hereā¦ š§”
?
“But some people constantly hop on and off š , thinking one š is boring and another š fascinating; then after getting on it realizes itās not all that different ā the scenery is more or less same, the train š service is more or less same, it becomes monotonous whether itās steam engined or TGV.”
Ha! Yes. You’re describing a job. Go from one poopy job to another! They’re all the same at their core. š
“But Romanticism tells you (collective) the best š should be a roller-coaster ride, so everyone wants to get on that š shaking and spinning until their heart want to jump out of the chest š„. ”
Well, the roller coaster eventually slows down. No matter how many times you get on a new one. It’s life. š
“Precisely! š¤ I might prefer this kind of profound friendship than a swirling romance, which is involved mysteries and unknownsā¦ š§”
I mean, either way, it all cools down to a friendship, anyway. If you’re lucky.
“By synchronicity, I saw the coupleās picture yesterday when I was reading another piece of news, and I totally agree with you that I have no clue why Bozos married a āBimboā! Maybe she has a bit that WAY with menā¦.”
I’m guessing here, because of course I don’t know them. But he likes that she attracts attention from other men. He’s “that guy” with the hot woman. (Yes, it’s shallow.)
“Your youth fountain, carefree joy, and lasting vitality”
Well, I’m not currently feeling any of these things, but maybe they’re in there somewhere. š
“I do understand yours because I was in your shoes before and also lived in both cultures. ”
I’m not entirely sure what we’re talking about here, but the West isn’t a monolith.
“But you (collective) never lived in my old culture so would not know how to appreciate enough what you already have, but chase that evasive luring phantom š«„ in romance, without profound friendship/camaraderie affection.”
This is what you value. It doesn’t mean it’s better or worse than what other people value.
“Yes. The sight of the fireworks gets repetitious and boring within 10 minutes. But the heaven-shaking sound always strikes various cords in oneās soul, like drumming in music.”
Did they have music with it? Sometimes they’ll be an orchestra playing and that can be really great.
“Thatās challenge even to a native speaker.”
It’s not a challenge for me. š
“Juicy and colorful adjectives are needed in deeper conversations and bonding dialogues. ”
There is such a thing as over-writing. Have you ever read a book of literature and it’s paragraph after paragraph about the weather or the setting. And sometimes you think … ok. Enough already. š
“But by proportion, there are simply, many more male writersā works are published and thus made bigger influence farer and longer. ”
Yes
“You can make such conclusion at the end of the day, but not in the beginning. ”
Not at all. A lot of jobs are repetitious. You pretty much know what’s going to happen ahead of time. The party I went to … I pretty much knew who would be there, what we would talk about (as a general rule), what time I’d come home. What would be different about a day, what I’d reflect on at the end of it, is if something happened that was unusual.
“If every event is like LO-lite showing up, youād be bored to pluck your hair out! Without darkness, what would be light? ”
Well, yes. It’s not that the party was darkness. I had a nice time, but I wouldn’t call it exciting. Now, one can only take so much excitement at one time or else one’s nervous system would be shot.
“not HIGH ā your sense of āfantastically aliveā”
Oh, yeah. When he came over, I was high as a kite.
“It seems that your sexuality is purely related to physical being with that glimmer; ”
Maybe it is. I don’t know. The glimmer isn’t just, “Oh, he’s cute.” It’s a lot more than that, and I don’t feel it that often. Maybe it’s triggering something psychological in me.
“mine (was) would be increased with emotional and mental connections ā the body and the mind in the same tone and united forceā¼ļø”
I just never expected that. I already had close friends.
“Yes, she sounded like having the advantage of growing up among men.”
She did, but she also knew how to talk to them and genuinely liked them. And I think that came through in her interactions with them.
“But my abstract-painter x-mother-in-law is a single child, introvert, independent , impeccably elegant and tasteful in the old-fashioned way. She had a way with men, too; my lady-friend (who will have a surgery) also has a way with men, both single or married. Iām fascinated by both of them!”
I was jealous of my friend growing up. I felt like I melted into the wallpaper when she was around. š
“I donāt know! And I canāt guess it either. I donāt think a partnerās man could be, since their SO or LO most likely still flash in and out of their head, even (subconsciously) when their š is about to drop off. ”
Huh? Not all these guys were with someone else. I think my college LO was a professional. He was single.
“In theory, I donāt think they are able to be a professional, although with some amorous feelings attached. Remember Rhett Butler is šÆ into Scarletā¼ļø”
Well, yeah, she’s the one woman who actually gets to him. Makes a dent. And that’s the fantasy. You’ll be that woman. Which is why “Gone With the Wind” was written by a woman! š
“I did save every piece post I rambled, thoughā¦ which made a part of my life, or my journey for nearly 2 years now. I do not trash my experiences ārecordedā or remembered in words.”
Have you saved them all? I don’t think I’d want to do that with mine. š
” French men are sexy and savvyā¦ and their compliments of you in their eyes and indirect words are irresistibleāļøBut donāt believe theyāre truly sincere, theyāre brought that way š š”
Well, they’re sincere in the moment … and then the moment is gone. š
“Did I mentioned here enough that LO6 was a Narc and I punched his face with my drunk š· fistsšš»āļø Since he lived in my neighborhood, my gf also told me that he was seeing other Asian girls at the time we were dating; of course, he lied about them. ”
Glad you got away from that guy.
“Sis, youāre too modest! There must be something in you or your words that draw those superficial textsāļø”
They’re mostly women who are texting me. I’m not someone who has a lot of male orbiters. If I like someone, I want them around but if I don’t really like them or half-like them, I don’t want them hanging around. I don’t have the energy to keep them hanging around. So the one guy who texts really is an once-close platonic friend. In my mind. Maybe not at one point in his mind, but that was a long time ago. It’s completely platonic now.
“Iād keep them as real people who once upon a time made some positive impact in my lifeā¦. Without them, our life became color-lessā¦”
I agree but they don’t really add much color to my life currently.
“No I meant both, alone or with people.”
With people? I’m working on that. I’m not sure. š
“Yes, Iām fully here and now when Iām speaking with you. But when I am off line, I also had āthere and thenā friends in the past and in my memory. If they come in my mind at any given time, they become āhere and nowā although I may not even know where they are physically.”
I’m the opposite. It doesn’t mean I don’t remember the friendship as it was or have some fond memories, but they’re not “here and now” if I barely see or talk to them in the present. It’s a past friendship that is either over or has morphed into more of a friendly acquaintanceship. I no longer consider us close friends. I feel the same about my past LOs. If I’m not currently limerent for them, they’re in the past and I’d like them to stay there.
“our thoughts, sentiments, and chosen memories, isnāt itāļø”
Yes, but I want to focus more on now. The people in my life now. What I’m working on or focusing now. Within the last few years and current times.
“Yes. We canāt have our head always wrapped around xLO or LO-lite, right?”
Oh, if it were that simple. š I’m not going to do anything about it, but I think about LO-lite a lot.
“But there is little anything else to choose while treating terminal diseasesā¦”
Terminal diseases? Probably not. Chronic conditions? Maybe, depending on what it is. Diet changes, supplements, meditation, stress reduction, exercise could all help.
“Thank Zeus š, there are choices hereā¦. š š”
Oh, we always have choices. You might not like them, but we do have choices. š
The Traveling Onion
Naomi Shihab Nye
1952 ā
āIt is believed that the onion originally came from India. In Egypt it was an
object of worship āwhy I havenāt been able to find out. From Egypt the onion
entered Greece and on to Italy, thence into all of Europe.ā ā Better Living Cookbook
When I think how far the onion has traveled
just to enter my stew today, I could kneel and praise
all small forgotten miracles,
crackly paper peeling on the drainboard,
pearly layers in smooth agreement,
the way the knife enters onion
and onion falls apart on the chopping block,
a history revealed.
And I would never scold the onion
for causing tears.
It is right that tears fall
for something small and forgotten.
How at meal, we sit to eat,
commenting on texture of meat or herbal aroma
but never on the translucence of onion,
now limp, now divided,
or its traditionally honorable career:
For the sake of others,
disappear.
š«
Turtle Soup
Marilyn Chin
You go home one evening tired from work,
and your mother boils you turtle soup.
Twelve hours hunched over the hearth
(who knows what else is in that cauldron.)
You say, āMa, youāve poached the symbol of long life;
that turtle lived four thousand years, swam
the Wei, up the Yellow, over the Yangtze.
Witnessed the Bronze Age, the High Tang,
grazed on splendid sericulture.ā
(So, she boils the life out of him.)
āAll our ancestors have been fools.
Remember Uncle Wu who rode ten thousand miles
to kill a famous Manchu and ended up
with his head on a pole? Eat, child,
its liver will make you strong.ā
āSometimes youāre the life, sometimes the sacrifice.ā
Her sobbing is inconsolable.
So, you spread the gentle napkin
over your lap in decorous Pasadena.
Baby, some high priestess got it wrong.
The golden decal on the green underbelly
says āMade in Hong Kong.ā
Is there nothing left but the shell
and humanityās strange inscriptions,
the songs, the rites, the oracles?
š¢ š„£
Snow,
I moved this post down here.
“In general, I enjoy BBC mini series, some movie versions are
great but just appetite teasing and cut too many juicy details and lines. Iām from a much slower-paced cultureā¦ and hate doing or watching anything in speed.”
I agree that the movie versions can be rushed. But I did think the “Sense and Sensibility” movie with Emma Thompson was very well done. Alan Rickman is so wonderful in the movie as well.
“Youāre right that Greg Wise is not my cup of tea, I couldnāt trust the rough characters he played.”
Well, you can’t trust him. You’re just going along for the ride with someone who has tremendous game. Who knows what he’s doing. If you can get in and out quickly without taking it too seriously. Hard to do of course. š
“What does it culturally mean āItās all sketchā or ātheyāre sketchā?”
Sketchy. Sleazy.
“But again, there were millions of ācontentā mistresses (w/o their āpoorā children) throughout the history, who cared when they lived or died?”
I’m not sure what you’re asking here. I’m assuming their entire life wasn’t the affair. They had … a job, family, friends.
“I was so neglected in childhood that I donāt want something limited or partial in relationships, that would reenact again the strong sense of dependency, longing and lonelinessā¦ from my childhood! Either all or nothingā¦ NO āHalf beingsā in doing or relating. It would be degrading oneās individuality and a sense of WHOLENESS.”
I certainly understand that. (Of course, it doesn’t have to be an affair to be part-time. As we’ve written, the person could be available and offering you next to nothing.) And I’m sure you’ve found that the older you get, the likelihood that someone you really want is available isn’t high. I’m not necessarily advocating any of this. I’m just stating facts.
“You must be working at a place that canāt be shut down during any holidays, like some of media. Poor, poor you! š«”
You have a much more glamorous vision of my life than is the actual reality. š
“Happy July 4th”
Happy 4th!
Marcia,
āI did think the āSense and Sensibilityā movie with Emma Thompson was very well done. Alan Rickman is so wonderful in the movie as well.:
I love this movie version immensely! Alan Rickmanās voice is always mesmerizing to me. I also enjoyed most Emma Thompsonās movies, she has such a strong, no-nonsense characters!
āWell, you canāt trust him. Youāre just going along for the ride with someone who has tremendous game. Who knows what heās doing. If you can get in and out quickly without taking it too seriously. Hard to do of course. šā
Iāll learn from you and SL how to appreciate those bad boys in stories š as a form of living arts!
[āBut again, there were millions of ācontentā mistresses (w/o their āpoorā children) throughout the history, who cared when they lived or died?ā
Iām not sure what youāre asking here. Iām assuming their entire life wasnāt the affair. They had ā¦ a job, family, friends.]
I was not asking anything. I meant weāre here, holding ideals in hand, talking about full-time romance versus part-time affairs and zero-attached playboys. But throughout the history, a lot of unattached PAs took place (still do), bringing along (un)wanted children. (Someone joked once that a half of Europeans are descendants/ābastardsā of royal families and their kingship. š
And unless extremely famous (who??), most of mistresses lived or died anonymously, happy or miserable, no one really cared about them. Ex French President Mitterrandās āillegitimateā daughter came into āexistenceā when she was 20ā the affair was well hidden for 20 years!
āI certainly understand that. (Of course, it doesnāt have to be an affair to be part-time. As weāve written, the person could be available and offering you next to nothing.) ā
Thatās a default of life, isnāt it? š§
āAnd Iām sure youāve found that the older you get, the likelihood that someone you really want is available isnāt high. Iām not necessarily advocating any of this. Iām just stating facts.ā
I took/take it for granted that āthe likelihoodā is 0ļøā£ ! I stopped āwantā after finished with LO5, āthrowing myself into the bottom of Danteās Infernoā ā expecting NOTHING. Butā¦ LO6 picked me up from a cafeā¦ then LO5 reboundedā¦. then LO7 landedā¦.
āYou have a much more glamorous vision of my life than is the actual reality. šā
When not knowing facts about any š» , I just imagine sunshine, moonbeam, silver glamor hovering the sky over their living (or swimming in their tears)ā¦ and believe in my imagination! Whoās going to jump out to refute my envisionsāļø
š«
This is effective, positive psychology, a true FREEDOM of imaginationsā¼ļø
Snow,
“Alan Rickmanās voice is always mesmerizing to me. ”
His voice is amazing. The reason I love him in the movie is that he usually played kind of big, loud characters but here he is much quieter and still so fun to watch.
“I also enjoyed most Emma Thompsonās movies, she has such a strong, no-nonsense characters!”
She’s good in everything.
“Iāll learn from you and SL how to appreciate those bad boys in stories š as a form of living arts!”
I really meant a man who knows what he’s doing. š Knows how to approach, how to talk to you, how to flirt, how to move things forward. It’s not common. So sometimes you go with it. (I haven’t experienced it that often. I don’t know what I would do if it was right in front of me now.)
“I was not asking anything. I meant weāre here, holding ideals in hand, talking about full-time romance versus part-time affairs and zero-attached playboys.”
They’re called f**kbois (or f**kboys). š
“And unless extremely famous (who??), most of mistresses lived or died anonymously, ”
Most of us live and die anonymously. How many of us make a mark?
“Ex French President Mitterrandās āillegitimateā daughter came into āexistenceā when she was 20ā the affair was well hidden for 20 years!”
Well, the French have a different view about affairs.
“Thatās a default of life, isnāt it? š§”
It seems to be. Romance, friendship. Most people don’t seem to want much of anything. It all feels so flat.
“I took/take it for granted that āthe likelihoodā is 0ļøā£ ! ”
It’s best to assume they’re not available. They probably aren’t! š
[āYou have a much more glamorous vision of my life than is the actual reality. šā]
“This is effective, positive psychology, a true FREEDOM of imaginationsā¼ļø”
Idk. Sometimes it’s better to address actual reality. š
Marcia,
āI really meant a man who knows what heās doing. š Knows how to approach, how to talk to you, how to flirt, how to move things forward. Itās not common. So sometimes you go with it. (I havenāt experienced it that often. I donāt know what I would do if it was right in front of me now.)ā
I thought I was an impossible dreamer, youāre worse! No modern men in Me-too era could or dares to do what youāve just described. A lot of them are clueless, especially if a woman behaves like Emma Thompsonās characters! š¤
If I were in that situation, I donāt think Iād just passively follow the man like a š š° in tranceā¦
āTheyāre called f**kbois (or f**kboys). šā
F**kboys are disgusting, walking robots. Sometimes, Jude Law came crossed like one (forgot which character).
āMost of us live and die anonymously. How many of us make a mark?ā
Havenāt you šš« and I āļø š¦āš„ made a small meaningful mark hereāļø I do NOT need to make any mark in a bigger reality, and I wonāt die anonymously as a š» in LwL, if a car hit me tomorrowā¦ āŗļø
āWell, the French have a different view about affairs.ā
While invited by my fabulous Parisian triathlon lover, I shouldāve immigrated to France to become Binoche II. itās too late nowā¦ šāāļø
āIt seems to be. Romance, friendship. Most people donāt seem to want much of anything. It all feels so flat.ā
Well, the lower aims, the more content people feel.ā Unmet desires/needs make life seemingly āflatāā¦
āItās best to assume theyāre not available. They probably arenāt! šā
Youāre a better Stoic than me now! Thatās what I meant to EXPECT NOTHING or the possible WORST, but to continue an ordinary living with some personal purposes, tiny or gigantic or anything in between.
āIdk. Sometimes itās better to address actual reality. šā
I would like to address actual reality, but how many š» š» here are willing or brave enough to reveal their realityāļø as if they had committed some crimesā¦ Everyone was/is a sufferer of a human condition firstā¦
Limerence is just a behavior addiction in the worst light, or an unknowing fall into a human spell, or a normal human desire to chase novelty as you have stated, orā¦ Why does it have to be treated as some sort of āunspeakableā, immoral, or killer diseaseā
Between cancer or limerence, which one would you rather to have, if you have to chooseā
Marcia,
“I thought I was an impossible dreamer, youāre worse! ”
I’m a total dreamer.
“No modern men in Me-too era could or dares to do what youāve just described. ”
I hope that’s not true. š
“If I were in that situation, I donāt think Iād just passively follow the man like a š š° in tranceā¦”
It would depend on the situation and on the man. I think I’m probably too old and been through too much not to know that eventually the whole thing would implode … and I’d be waiting for the implosion. Knowing all that I know, maybe I wouldn’t be able to enjoy the ride.
“F**kboys are disgusting, walking robots. Sometimes, Jude Law came crossed like one (forgot which character).”
Probably “Alfie” ?
“Havenāt you šš« and I āļø š¦āš„ made a small meaningful mark hereāļø I do NOT need to make any mark in a bigger reality, and I wonāt die anonymously as a š» in LwL, if a car hit me tomorrowā¦ āŗļø”
I mean, I guess, but you’d be replaced. We all will be. At any given time, there is a group of certain posters on here. Some main ones, some float in and out. Eventually most people float out permanently, though some come back every now and then. And the former group is slowly replaced with a new group. It’s the nature of the blog. If you stopped posting, people may read your old posts and get something out of them, but you would be replaced.
“While invited by my fabulous Parisian triathlon lover, I shouldāve immigrated to France to become Binoche II. itās too late nowā¦ šāāļø”
I don’t think it’s too late. Maybe you and I should move to France! Maybe it’s time. The French revere older women. I don’t mean respect. I mean desire. I’m completely serious. We’d be “hot things” there! š
“Well, the lower aims, the more content people feel.ā Unmet desires/needs make life seemingly āflatāā¦”
They just doesn’t feel like much. The friendships I have, the family relationships. I don’t really feel like we have some kind of deep connection.
“Youāre a better Stoic than me now! Thatās what I meant to EXPECT NOTHING or the possible WORST, but to continue an ordinary living with some personal purposes, tiny or gigantic or anything in between.”
It’s best to assume he’s already with someone or if not has a bunch of women lined up. It’s the way it is. š
“I would like to address actual reality, but how many š» š» here are willing or brave enough to reveal their realityāļø as if they had committed some crimesā¦ ”
I’m not sure what you mean. I think I’ve been fairly honest about the crap I’ve pulled. š
“Limerence is just a behavior addiction in the worst light, or an unknowing fall into a human spell, or a normal human desire to chase novelty as you have stated, orā¦ ”
Maybe novelty isn’t the right word. It might be for some people, but limerence taps into something deeper than that. What exactly … depends on the person.
“Why does it have to be treated as some sort of āunspeakableā, immoral, or killer diseaseā”
I don’t think we treat it like that on here. But, yes, it does often cross moral lines.
“Between cancer or limerence, which one would you rather to have, if you have to chooseā”
Limerence. I abhor having to deal with the Western medical complex and I have a fear of being cut up.
Marcia,
How are you feeling today after having to work yesterday? Do you have some time off on the weekend? I really hope soāļø
I was very tired after being surrounded by so many people seeing the fireworksš§Ø last evening. Any kind of public noise exhausts my sensitive neurons easily (one reason I canāt drive). Then this morning, I could not upload a regular post to Sir š for several tries š (Now, itās fine after I broke them into two pieces; itās 1/10 in length compared to those aged-your-ladyship āWar and Peaceā pieces … Iāve been trying to learn your brevity š )
āIām a total dreamer. ā
There is nothing wrong to be dreamer, as long as one is clear that some dreams are just wishful and impractical! But they can be used as sources for creative writing or mood regulator. All artists dream huge/impossible beyond their reality of the timeā¼ļø
[āNo modern men in Me-too era could or dares to do what youāve just describedāāØāI hope thatās not true. šā]
I have stopped hoping completely in this arena. Plus I never liked Rhett Butler.
āIt would depend on the situation and on the man. I think Iām probably too old and been through too much not to know that eventually the whole thing would implode ā¦ and Iād be waiting for the implosion. Knowing all that I know, maybe I wouldnāt be able to enjoy the ride. ā
So your enjoyment lies on Unknown /mysterious of āthe thingāā Did you always āWAIT for the implosionā, putting yourself in a possible position ā a kind of mental and physical dependenceā
[āSometimes, Jude Law came crossed like one (forgot which character).āāØProbably āAlfieā ?]
I havenāt seen that movie. Now think of it more, I had that impression from every movie in which I saw him, even in serious, romantic roles. Donāt ask me how I got that impression, I donāt know why š¤ āļø
āI mean, I guess, but youād be replaced. We all will be. ā
Of course, I/we will be replaced, itās just like in reality. LwL is just a smaller, invisible ācopyā of reality. Old being replaced by new is a default of the life on this earth, which disliking/hating it is not going to change itāļø
āAt any given time, there is a group of certain posters on here. Some main ones, some float in and out. Eventually most people float out permanently, though some come back every now and then. And the former group is slowly replaced with a new group. Itās the nature of the blog. ā
Indeed! Nothing to be concerned about such a nature; itās a reality beyond my control, so why botherāļøš
But Iāll remember the impact of some talks/posts, which affected my realistic life tremenduosly. Some of us have healed our LE, resrepctively, this outcome excels above anything else. Iāll remember you as Marcia, my INFP sister, (without any realistic identity), once upon a time ādancedā and exerted positive influence in my realityā¦ My mind will naturally keep the memory without much effortsā¦
So forget about being replaced or not, but focus on our reality of āhere and nowā – one element of being Stoicāļø
āIf you stopped posting, people may read your old posts and get something out of them, but you would be replaced. ā
I post(ed) not because I expected others to read, but to express what I needed or wanted to say, to a specific poster like you, or whoever happened to be reading/listening. But written rambling/chatting itself is engaging and fulfilling (I put a lot of thinking into my posts, even joking ones); being read or not is almost 0% of my concern nowadays (Longing-š).
I read my own post at least 2-3 times after posting ā observing and understanding my changing /evolving Self, through our public dialogues, discussions and debates.
āI donāt think itās too late. Maybe you and I should move to France! Maybe itās time. The French revere older women. I donāt mean respect. I mean desire. Iām completely serious. Weād be āhot thingsā there! ā
š Iām not so optimistic as you. Itās extremely hard to settle into dominantly homogenous French society (not immigrant) as I understand it from my French God mother, teacher and girlfriends. Like in COO, youāre either insider or outsider for 20-30 years. even if you pronounce French/COO perfectly.
My superbly chic French teacher (speaks 6 languages) āran awayā from her producer-position in Fr. II (tv station) and became a poor Ph.D student years ago. And she stayed in my city, not wanting to return to her hometown, Paris, because there are too many unwritten rules and expectations from women in general, which her liberal mind just hated! My sweet French gf was suddenly dumped by her husband of 34 years with three children, because he fell for a younger woman last Fall.
Human natures, particularly limerence, are similar everywhere š
āThey just donāt feel like much. The friendships I have, the family relationships. I donāt really feel like we have some kind of deep connection. ā
Are you upset by itā I have the similar dynamics, but havenāt been bothered by it since a while ago. The majority of people I have encountered seem to be in that category ā busy, superficial and very practical, which is a default of the modern life ā out of your or my controlāļø If I get upset, then there would be no end of it; so letās be Stoic about it.
āItās best to assume heās already with someone or if not has a bunch of women lined up. Itās the way it is. ā
A Very Stoic and healthy assumption! Then, continue your efforts (if deemed worthy) to deal with him as LO-lite, a date, a friend, or whatever. If it works little, fine; if not, fine, too! The key to avoid anxiety or pain, as you just said, is to have NO expectation or have the worst assumption. Then, if itās true, you wonāt get hurt much (a little), but if your assumption is wrong, then imagine what joy youād getāļø
[āIām not sure what you mean. I think Iāve been fairly honest about the crap Iāve pulled. ]
Oh, I did not imply you or anyone here is dishonest. I meant all of us could not be honest/frank about our LE or āembarrassingā inner thoughts in our respective reality, except in this totally anonymous space (we talk with each other like āghostsā Graphically).
So much struggling and sufferings involved, especially in partnered limerents, is because the society donāt understand and accept LE yet, whether they act on it or not. On the other hand, single limerents do not necessarily have easier time to talk about it with realistic friends in our life, aside from therapists.
āMaybe novelty isnāt the right word. It might be for some people, but limerence taps into something deeper than that. What exactly ā¦ depends on the person. ā
Totally agree with you here. Each limerent should and needs to find their LEās root in order to prevent future LEs. Unless we dig deeper, that nagging Longing may remain with us indefinitelyā¦.
āLimerence. I abhor having to deal with the Western medical complex and I have a fear of being cut upā
The same here. Iād rather to go through another 7 years of LE than getting cancer and being open up on a surgical tableā¦ š±
My mood has improved largely, simply by rambling to Sir š and your ladyship š š« nowā¦ š
Edit: ā Then, continue your zero/little/some efforts (if deemed worthy while primarily leading your independent purposeful life) to deal with him as LO-lite, a date, a friend, or whatever in between.
Again in taking any endeavor that involves another person particularly in friendship/relationship arena, the ordinary expectation in the West is 50-50, in COO: 80 (fail)-20 (hope), in Stoic: 99 (f)-1 (maybeā)
Snow,
“How are you feeling today after having to work yesterday? Do you have some time off on the weekend? I really hope soāļø”
Thanks for asking. Yes, I have the weekend off.
“I was very tired after being surrounded by so many people seeing the fireworksš§Ø last evening. ”
Did you enjoy the show at all?
“(Now, itās fine after I broke them into two pieces; itās 1/10 in length compared to those aged-your-ladyship āWar and Peaceā pieces ā¦ Iāve been trying to learn your brevity š )”
You … um … still have a lot more to learn! š
“There is nothing wrong to be dreamer, as long as one is clear that some dreams are just wishful and impractical! ”
I mean, there is still a small part of me holding onto the dreams. Or else, why get up in the morning?
“I have stopped hoping completely in this arena. Plus I never liked Rhett Butler.”
Well, we’ve talked about this before. š I love Rhett Butler. Or Clark Gable in general. His beautiful, impenetrable masculinity. I know you won’t agree on this with me at all, but it’s the polarity between men and women that makes things sexy.
“So your enjoyment lies on Unknown /mysterious of āthe thingāā ”
No. The enjoyment comes from being with a “professional.” As Rhett Butler says, a man who has “a way with women.”
“Did you always āWAIT for the implosionā, putting yourself in a possible position ā a kind of mental and physical dependenceā”
It’s not dependence. It’s knowing that he’s probably got a lot of women he’s seeing or will see after you. That whatever’s happening will be pretty short-lived. As I wrote, meeting a Rhett Butler is rare. Very rare. So you have to weigh — do I want the experience, knowing it won’t last? Knowing that it’s of the moment, and then the moment is gone.
“I havenāt seen that movie. ”
I haven’t, either. It was just the one that came to mind in which he plays a f**kboy.
“Old being replaced by new is a default of the life on this earth, which disliking/hating it is not going to change itāļø”
Yes, it is.
“Iāll remember you as Marcia, my INFP sister, (without any realistic identity), once upon a time ādancedā and exerted positive influence in my realityā¦ My mind will naturally keep the memory without much effortsā¦”
That’s sweet of you to say. I feel the blog has helped me as well.
“I read my own post at least 2-3 times after posting ā observing and understanding my changing /evolving Self, through our public dialogues, discussions and debates.”
That’s good. I have gone back and read my old posts (if I happen to click on an old link/post to read about the topic and stumble on one of my posts). But they often make me cringe. In terms of how they were a reflection as to where I was mentally at the time.
“š Iām not so optimistic as you. Itās extremely hard to settle into dominantly homogenous French society (not immigrant) as I understand it from my French God mother, teacher and girlfriends. Like in COO, youāre either insider or outsider for 20-30 years. even if you pronounce French/COO perfectly.”
Is it? I was just thinking of the French first ladies or older French actresses. The way they dress, the way they wear their hair … they’re still sexy, they’re still elegant. They’re still seen as viable. And they haven’t had a ton of plastic surgery (they may have had some, but not to the point of looking weird) and they don’t look like they’re working out a million hours a week. They look like normal, attractive women. No one is expecting them to look 20 years younger. The culture doesn’t have an obsession with youth the way it does in the states.
“And she stayed in my city, not wanting to return to her hometown, Paris, because there are too many unwritten rules and expectations from women in general, which her liberal mind just hated!”
What kind of rules and expectations?
“My sweet French gf was suddenly dumped by her husband of 34 years with three children, because he fell for a younger woman last Fall. … Human natures, particularly limerence, are similar everywhere š”
That must have been awful for her. That’s very true. Can’t protect against human nature.
“Are you upset by itā”
Yes. I’m baffled by some of them. Once a month or so, I get a link or a GIF in a text. That’s their idea of keeping in touch with me! There’s not even an effort to have a conversation. “Hey, this is what I’m up to. They last time we texted, this is what you were up to. How’s it going?” It’s WEIRD. What are they getting out of keeping in touch with me like this? (These are long distance friends and family, though I do have local friends who randomly check in by text. We never see each other, and they live in the same town!) There’s NO continuity in the conversation. Even if I do bring up something that’s bothering me over the occasional phone call, they never mention it again. This is one of the reasons I don’t file away a lot of info about people in my head. We don’t have that kind of relationship/interaction.
“I have the similar dynamics, but havenāt been bothered by it since a while ago. ”
How? I feel like these relationships lack emotional depth. It’s demoralizing.
“A Very Stoic and healthy assumption! ”
Well, it’s just the way of the world. If he’s much over the age of 35. š
“The key to avoid anxiety or pain, as you just said, is to have NO expectation or have the worst assumption. ”
The key to avoiding pain is just to avoid the other side altogether. š
“Oh, I did not imply you or anyone here is dishonest. I meant all of us could not be honest/frank about our LE or āembarrassingā inner thoughts in our respective reality, except in this totally anonymous space (we talk with each other like āghostsā Graphically).”
Yes, totally agree.
“So much struggling and sufferings involved, especially in partnered limerents, is because the society donāt understand and accept LE yet, whether they act on it or not. On the other hand, single limerents do not necessarily have easier time to talk about it with realistic friends in our life, aside from therapists.”
Yes, most people won’t understand limerence. I can talk about it with my therapist. A lot of therapists don’t understand it or even know about it.
“Totally agree with you here. Each limerent should and needs to find their LEās root in order to prevent future LEs. Unless we dig deeper, that nagging Longing may remain with us indefinitelyā¦.”
True.
“The same here. Iād rather to go through another 7 years of LE than getting cancer and being open up on a surgical tableā¦ š±”
And that’s all Western medicine offers. Pills or surgery. And then you’re treated like you’re on some kind of conveyer belt of patients. It’s so impersonal.
“My mood has improved largely, simply by rambling to Sir š and your ladyship š š« nowā¦ š”
I’m going to leave the lizards and the snakes to you! š Sorry. Couldn’t help myself.
Marcia,
āDid you enjoy the show at all?ā
I did enjoy the show and recorded the several pieces of video clips, since I mainly love the sound that would strike one all the way to the backbone. One has to be on the spot to feel it! My mind was wandering off a little bit as I was listening to Heaven-shaking roar and thinking what if this was my last firework to watchā¦
āYou ā¦ um ā¦ still have a lot more to learn!
Learning and using a 2nd language is just a lifetime project. But Joseph Conrad and Nabokov made it! Why am I always looking up those male writers, instead of focusing on George Sand, Jane Austen,, BrontĆ« Sisters, George Elliot, Virginia, Woolfāļø
āI mean, there is still a small part of me holding onto the dreams. Or else, why get up in the morning?ā
I asked that question many times before. When I was in a bad mood, it might be that old vague longings that āpulledā me up. When I was in a good mood, it is āCuriosityā, not anticipation of any specifics. The mystery of life āwhat might happen the next day, the next week, or next month. In theory, anything can happen, or nothing I care would happen, but one simply cannot know. So I get up with the curiosity Granny and Dad passed down to me.
āI love Rhett Butler. Or Clark Gable in general. His beautiful, impenetrable masculinity. I know you wonāt agree on this with me at all, but itās the polarity between men and women that makes things sexy. ā
Youāre right that I still canāt appreciate Clark Gable. I think itās the similarity between men and women that makes āfeminineā men more attractive, obviously to me personally. Except a couple of Narcs, all my crushes and LOs looked much more feminine than your Butler. I guess Iām not a typical woman by the Western concept? I instinctively did not and do not like very masculine men no matter how handsome they look.
āNo. The enjoyment comes from being with a āprofessional.ā As Rhett Butler says, a man who has āa way with women.ā ā
I know what you are talking about here; but I want to ask, can a sexy, confident, mature woman, not a professional sex worker, be a āprofessionalāCan a woman have a way with menāā
āItās not dependence. Itās knowing that heās probably got a lot of women heās seeing or will see after you. That whateverās happening will be pretty short-lived. As I wrote, meeting a Rhett Butler is rare. Very rare. So you have to weigh ā do I want the experience, knowing it wonāt last? Knowing that itās of the moment, and then the moment is gone. ā
I know my answer was and is, āNo!ā I donāt want to short lived moments, an experience for an instant, short-lived, gratification what would increase the hungry ghostās appetite. I know a lot of modern men and women in the West do (by compassion so few in the East).
I tried it with dating apps and met Parisian and Russian lovers, but my mind and heart were not with them. During last LE, I wanted to try it but resisted it as I told you last year, the anticipated emotional pain after āmomentsā scared off my guts (I knew how it would feel like). So I had your equivalent āRhett Butlerā moment, but I let it go. In time and space, Iād enjoy a constant waterfall, not Zeusā wonton thunder & showerā¦
āThatās sweet of you to say. I feel the blog has helped me as well. ā
As long as I am benefiting from the blog by scanning and rambling, I couldnāt care less what was said before I came or after I leave, we donāt miss what we donāt know, right? How other posters reacted or would react to my monologues or dialogues (with some of you) is entirely their business, beyond my control ā Stoic. Quality of my life depends on whatās going on in my head and heart ā mostly within my control (if not in LE or Longing).
āThatās good. I have gone back and read my old posts (if I happen to click on an old link/post to read about the topic and stumble on one of my posts). But they often make me cringe. In terms of how they were a reflection as to where I was mentally at the time. ā
Oh, no! š«£ I have NOT gone back to read my old postsš; āoldāto me means less than 3 days. š Iām here and now chatting with youā¦
āIs it? I was just thinking of the French first ladies or older French actresses. The way they dress, the way they wear their hair ā¦ theyāre still sexy, theyāre still elegant. Theyāre still seen as viable. And they havenāt had a ton of plastic surgery (they may have had some, but not to the point of looking weird) and they donāt look like theyāre working out a million hours a week. They look like normal, attractive women. No one is expecting them to look 20 years younger. The culture doesnāt have an obsession with youth the way it does in the states.ā
Youāre right in all the above account; theyāre so confident doing whatever they are doing in the streets! I observed them and just could not help admire the way they elegantly, confidently, and care-freely carry themselves and interact with others.
But as I said in my previous emails, theyāre NATIVE French women; they hate Americans and keep polite distance from other ethnic groups, I saw that, too. You cannot break into their circle easily or at all! Outside Paris in the South, itās āworseā I was treated as a friendly alien (I attended my gfās wedding). So I donāt think it would not be so suitable for you and me to migrate there.
āWhat kind of rules and expectations?
She did not specify in details, but something to do with women being expected to be chic, feminine and sexy, and men masculine, pleasing and complimentary ā āFrench mothers taught their boys well on how to respect and compliment womenā ā my Godmotherās words. A woman would feel āinsultedā if not being flattered for their appearance upon first meeting a man in social setting. French men get a soft knee on attractive women regardless their age or social status.
š£ Trifles šØ: are these stereotype French true?
Maybe my chic French teacher did not like that? We were not that close, since she was my professor, teaching with the same black suit-dress and a black hat in the classroom for an entire week or longer (she said they donāt change outfit daily). Youād spot her from a block away, itās her style, confident and carefree air! British LO6 could not take his eyes off her once we spotted her a half block away š
āAre you upset by itāā
āØāYes. Iām baffled by some of them. Once a month or so, I get a link or a GIF in a text. Thatās their idea of keeping in touch with me! Thereās not even an effort to have a conversation. āHey, this is what Iām up to. They last time we texted, this is what you were up to. Howās it going?ā Itās WEIRD. What are they getting out of keeping in touch with me like this? (These are long distance friends and family, though I do have local friends who randomly check in by text. We never see each other, and they live in the same town)
I would ask the same question as you did ā why did they even bother contacting you? Must be in need of some validations? Sis, you must be immensely Sexy! š· I would just kick them out of my head by focusing on my hobbies. Sis, what are your hobbies while not working crazilyā
āThereās NO continuity in the conversation. Even if I do bring up something thatās bothering me over the occasional phone call, they never mention it again. This is one of the reasons I donāt file away a lot of info about people in my head. We donāt have that kind of relationship/interaction. ā
They did not really care about your wellbeing at all, they were seeking some kind of validation from you. I did and do not keep this kind of loose friendship at all, I was famous out in reality and here LwL for āshort of patienceā or ātoddler tantrumsā š š¤, except when dealing with xLO.
[āI have the similar dynamics, but havenāt been bothered by it since a while ago. āāØHow? I feel like these relationships lack emotional depth. Itās demoralizing. ]
I meant my LTR girlfriends, cousins, and OC (old classmates), most of them are introvert, not people who have a luxurious way with words āļø š Their occasional verbal care did not make a loud splash in my pool of daily living, but I have fond memories of them; we ritually exchange holiday and birthday greetings, itās part of human life with meaningsā¦
[The key to avoiding pain is just to avoid the other side altogether. ]
So you think you can live or live better without the other half of sexes? š I like their presence in person or in ghost, with a pencil in their ā and skinny š on their š¦µš½ ! Life without them would be very boring, in shortage of chivalry š š¤ŗ, deliciousness š¬š, silliness š¤” š , funniness š¤ŖšŖ¶, giggles š¤ and laughters š š¹
āYes, most people wonāt understand limerence. I can talk about it with my therapist. A lot of therapists donāt understand it or even know about it. ā
Thatās why Iām done with professional therapists. Itās much better talking about it with LE insiders, particularly recovered LE insiders. I learned about Narcissism from a profession Ultra Narcissist, who knows better than his insightful Narc psychologyāļø
āAnd thatās all Western medicine offers. Pills or surgery. And then youāre treated like youāre on some kind of conveyer belt of patients. Itās so impersonal.ā
Your description here is shattering my brain and gutā¦ š±
āIām going to leave the lizards and the snakes to you! ā
š¤Æ Oh Dear lady Sister! You leave the LwL reptile family members all to meāš«¦ those crawling on the ground š , clinging to the wall š¦ , and tumbling in the sky š ā šØ
Ohlalalaā¦. What a tiny š¦āš„ is going to do with their slithering tails š š«£ swinging-n-swaying themāāš«¢
Lady Snow,
“I did enjoy the show and recorded the several pieces of video clips, since I mainly love the sound that would strike one all the way to the backbone. ”
So you like the sound better than the sight of the fireworks?
“Learning and using a 2nd language is just a lifetime project. ”
I meant in your quest for brevity. š
“But Joseph Conrad and Nabokov made it! Why am I always looking up those male writers, instead of focusing on George Sand, Jane Austen,, BrontĆ« Sisters, George Elliot, Virginia, Woolfāļø”
We’re conditioned to believe that male writers are more important.
“The mystery of life āwhat might happen the next day, the next week, or next month. In theory, anything can happen, or nothing I care would happen, but one simply cannot know. So I get up with the curiosity Granny and Dad passed down to me.”
In theory, yes. Anything can happen. But I’d say most of life is fairly mundane. And predictable. For example, I went to a little party this evening. I had a nice time and I’m glad I went. I enjoyed talking to people. But did it compare to waiting for LO-lite to show up for our little visit? Ah, no, not even close. There’s most of life and then there are these moments that make you feel fantastically alive that you won’t forget.
“I think itās the similarity between men and women that makes āfeminineā men more attractive, obviously to me personally.”
I can emotionally connect to men who are more feminine. But they don’t turn me on as much sexually.
“I know what you are talking about here; but I want to ask, can a sexy, confident, mature woman, not a professional sex worker, be a āprofessionalāCan a woman have a way with menāā”
I’d say so, yes. I’m not really talking about sex here. I had a childhood friend who was very comfortable around men. She had a couple of older and a couple of younger brothers. She knew how to talk to men, she was very flirtatious, cute. I don’t remember her being without a serious boyfriend.
“I donāt want to short lived moments, an experience for an instant, short-lived, gratification what would increase the hungry ghostās appetite. ”
That’s probably true. I think it’s probably been 20 years since I’ve met a professional. š Twenty years ago, I would have said yes in a heartbeat.
“So I had your equivalent āRhett Butlerā moment, but I let it go. In time and space, Iād enjoy a constant waterfall, not Zeusā wonton thunder & showerā¦”
You think your LO was a professional? I don’t think my last LO was. I don’t think LO-lite is.
“How other posters reacted or would react to my monologues or dialogues (with some of you) is entirely their business, beyond my control ā Stoic.”
Yes, that’s true.
“Oh, no! š«£ I have NOT gone back to read my old postsš; āoldā to me means less than 3 days. š Iām here and now chatting with youā¦”
Oh, no. These were a few years old. I sometimes look up limerence topics. Old posts. And I happen to see my name and read the posts and think … did I actually write that?
“Youāre right in all the above account; theyāre so confident doing whatever they are doing in the streets! I observed them and just could not help admire the way they elegantly, confidently, and care-freely carry themselves and interact with others.”
Agree.
“But as I said in my previous emails, theyāre NATIVE French women; they hate Americans and keep polite distance from other ethnic groups”
I have only been to a handful of countries outside of the states. And as a tourist for a short time. France was one of them, and I did not find the French rude at all. (Now, I obviously didn’t move there permanently.) I also thought the French men were very hot.
“āFrench mothers taught their boys well on how to respect and compliment womenā”
I have no problem with this. š
“Maybe my chic French teacher did not like that? We were not that close, since she was my professor, teaching with the same black suit-dress and a black hat in the classroom for an entire week or longer (she said they donāt change outfit daily).”
That I do remember from being in France! The same clothes for days. š
“British LO6 could not take his eyes off her once we spotted her a half block away š”
That would drive me nuts. An LO noticing other women.
“I would ask the same question as you did ā why did they even bother contacting you? Must be in need of some validations?”
Possibly. I can’t figure out what they’re getting out of reaching out to me.
“Sis, you must be immensely Sexy! š·”
Huh?
” I would just kick them out of my head by focusing on my hobbies.”
A couple of them are work references so I maintain some contact. (I don’t care if that sounds selfish.) Or they’re family members. I’m not going to cut them off but I won’t exert a lot of effort. One of them was very good/helpful to me during a difficult time, and I haven’t forgotten that. So I will make a little chit chat over text.
“Sis, what are your hobbies while not working crazilyā”
You mean those that involve other people? š
“They did not really care about your wellbeing at all”
No, they don’t.
“Their occasional verbal care did not make a loud splash in my pool of daily living, but I have fond memories of them; we ritually exchange holiday and birthday greetings, itās part of human life with meaningsā¦”
I think we have different views on this. You say you’re of the here and now, for example, on here. That’s how I feel about relationships/friendships. It’s all about the here and now. If we’re not close now, we’re not close.
“So you think you can live or live better without the other half of sexes? š I like their presence in person or in ghost, with a pencil in their ā and skinny š on their š¦µš½ !”
Are you talking about work buddies or friendly acquaintances? Sure. That’s fine.
“Thatās why Iām done with professional therapists. ”
I’m not big on them, either. But I have gotten some help of late from the one I have now.
“Your description here is shattering my brain and gutā¦ š±”
Western medicine is bad.
“š¤Æ Oh Dear lady Sister! You leave the LwL reptile family members all to meāš«¦ those crawling on the ground š , clinging to the wall š¦ , and tumbling in the sky š ā šØ”
You’re not required to watch them. š
Here i was trying to hide in case the barman comes after me with the bill for the damages to the Inn…
But I saw the call-out. š¢ Snow, I agree with your friend that in France “women are expected to be chic, feminine and sexy”. It’s quite different from Germany, for example, where the expectations towards women’s esthetic are much more relaxed.
I also noticed this discussion with LaR saying:
“…with certain couples, too much Stoic mindset *in one person much more than the other* could indeed be a problem for the relationship.”
Yes, I am the “Stoic” (I added quotation marks because I’m not well-versed in Stoicism) in my new relationship. And we just had a crisis about it.
I told new beau (MR) my (I admit, slightly provocative) thoughts about how all romantic relationships end at some point. … Or that they turn into friendships or companionships. And that at least now, I wouldn’t be satisfied with that. I did say that my opinion would probably change when I’m older, but I don’t know how MUCH older.
When I said this, he looked like he’d been slapped in the face.
He claims that I don’t believe in us. He is much better at purposeful naive livin’ than I am! He also has trust issues and this made him feel like he can’t trust me. To me, I’m no less trustworthy than anyone else, just for saying these things out loud. No one can give the other any guarantees.
I tried to explain that my opinion doesn’t mean that I won’t try (to make the relationship last). We’re due for another conversation, but we’ll see whether we find common ground…
šØ,
Wheeeee, I š£ called and you heard right away! thatās the friendship I cherish! š«
āHere i was trying to hide in case the barman comes after me with the bill for the damages to the Innā¦ā
Given by Dameās power, I your barman Sir š under my watch, so donāt worry about his slithery greediness.
āBut I saw the call-out. š¢ Snow, I agree with your friend that in France āwomen are expected to be chic, feminine and sexyā.
Thank you for confirmation! Iāve visited France 7 times, and had to bring my chic clothes with me, then got (un)wanted vanity validation š. I was stopped once on a sidewalk for a possible date, I turned him down. Then in 2017 in Toulon, this attractive, Butler-kind of single father laid eyes on me, when I visited my Godmotherās summer house and cooked a small banquet for them all. He invited me to his pool, but I never went; I could not be my Sis Marcia. I missed a possible steamy jacuzzi momentsā¦ š
āItās quite different from Germany, for example, where the expectations towards womenās esthetic are much more relaxed.ā
Lucky Mila with her skinny š and the killer āļø !
Yes, I am the āStoicā (I added quotation marks because Iām not well-versed in Stoicism) in my new relationship. And we just had a crisis about it.
Oh oh, šØ! Stoic is an attitude within (not stoic with small āsā), a kind of like religious or philosophical belief. Please be careful how to reveal without preaching our beliefs, particularly in a romanceā¦ (a lot of people take being āstoicā for Stoic š)
āI told new beau (MR) my (I admit, slightly provocative) thoughts about how all romantic relationships end at some point. ā¦ Or that they turn into friendships or companionships. ā
It seems that you and Marcia are on the same camp, lining with the majority of Westerners. For me, I want 3 to be united in one relationship, of course led first by strong romantic feelings. Somehow I just believe(d) that friendships/companionships could co-exist with lasting a romance (maybe NOT always at level 8-10, which would be exhausting). I sound like a Victorian, a tiny version of Lizzie.
āAnd that at least now, I wouldnāt be satisfied with that. I did say that my opinion would probably change when Iām older, but I donāt know how MUCH older. When I said this, he looked like heād been slapped in the face.ā
If I remember correctly, your MR had some ātraumaticā experiences in his past romances, and he sounded like āinsecureā in this arena. Heās certainly not as Stoic as youāļø Now, loudly voicing out your Stoic practice would intensify his insecurity (which he needs to rid of on his own eventually) . He might take it as a warning that you were thinking about āabandoningā him down the road.
ā He claims that I donāt believe in us. He is much better at purposeful naive livinā than I am! ā
Sounds like HE is living more purposefully in his romance with you, Iād love and cherish thatāļø Youāre so luckyā¼ļø
āHe also has trust issues and this made him feel like he canāt trust me. ā
I was in his shoes many times in the past, so I can strongly resonate with his sentiments and thoughts here.
āTo me, Iām no less trustworthy than anyone else, just for saying these things out loud. No one can give the other any guarantees.ā
Yes, you KNOW youāre trustworthy, and your reasoning about guaranty is true. However, but less Stoic, he does not and cannot know your trustworthiness within a short period of interactions.
āI tried to explain that my opinion doesnāt mean that I wonāt try (to make the relationship last). Weāre due for another conversation, but weāll see whether we find common groundā¦ā
Words have dual sides: on one side, they can be super powerful to strike an insecure cord, with possibly sky-shattering effect, deep inside of the listener due to their SUBJECT interpretations based on their old traumas. On the other hand, words are also weak without actions to back them up yet (to a COO mind).
Now, you need to not just āTRYā but firmly DO (back up your verbal assurance) with more sincerely affectionate acts/actions, which would take time, patience, and consistency to demonstrate.
Being Stoic does not mean to hold oneās effort back, for ājust in caseā it does not work outā¦ Being Stoic requires one to still puts oneās best effort in ā making true quality of the journey, but expect or even wait for a failure.
A lot of people are very calculating and only focus on their wished outcomesā¦ So they always have one step in and one step out of dynamicā¦ To me, thatās very unattractive or even a killer to a possible lasting relationship/friendship.
Typo:
āI have your barmen Sir š under a watchā
āSUBJECTIVE interpretationsāā¦
One more point ā
Dress up and act bewitchingly sexy and killing affectionate OUTSIDE, but remain steady, quiet Stoic INSIDEā¦š„° Most of men are visualā¦ š¤Ŗ
Iām all ears here, feel free to ventā¦. š«
Marcia to the collective …
“One more point ā
Dress up and act bewitchingly sexy and killing affectionate OUTSIDE, but remain steady, quiet Stoic INSIDEā¦š„° Most of men are visualā¦ š¤Ŗ”
I’m not sure who wrote this … Snow? I’m not dressing up anymore unless there’s a reason to. As I wrote, I went to a small party last night. I was pretty sure who was going to be there, and I was right with the exception of two people, only one of whom was a man and I wasn’t interested in him. The likelihood they’ll be anyone I want to impress at any of the stuff I do socially is so, so low. I do put on some makeup but I usually just put my hair up and wear very casual, slightly baggy clothes. It’s how I dress for work. It takes too much time to do full hair, let alone pick out nice clothes on to show off the package. I did gussy it up for the dates I went on. Other than that, it’s not worth it. I’d rather sleep in a bit in the mornings before going to work. š
Trifles,
“I told new beau (MR) my (I admit, slightly provocative) thoughts about how all romantic relationships end at some point. ā¦ Or that they turn into friendships or companionships.”
I agree. The passion and sexual tension die. Maybe not completely. Maybe they ebb and flow back in at some points, but they change from how they were in the beginning. Maybe that’s what people on here miss.
Marcia š š« , Trifles šØ
I meant Trifles dressing casually but chicly and elegantly (my sense of ādress for her MR only, not anyone else. She scared him with her voiced-out Stoicism, which is meant to be practiced quietly within oneself.
Oh, Sis, I Never, Never did your kind of āgussy upā for a date or social activity; thatās be too much for me. The only difference for me between working and dating is a light-layer of makeup on the face; nothing elseā¦.
Snow,
“He might take it as a warning that you were thinking about āabandoningā him down the road.”
Yes, that is exactly how he took it. š
For me it was just an interesting topic of debate, for him something deeper. However, I don’t think I will or can change. Though I am learning more on how and where to take his feelings into account. I will continue to debate and air my sometimes controversial opinions with those who are close to me. That’s just part of me. But I will have to convince him that those are just that to me: philosophical debates, not necessarily indicators of our relationship. It will probably take time for that trust to grow.
“Words have dual sides: on one side, they can be super powerful to strike an insecure cord(…) On the other hand, words are also weak without actions to back them up.”
You are very right. Without actions to prove or disprove them, they are just…words.
And you don’t have to tell me that men are visual creatures! š Luckily MR likes to tell me exactly what he likes about my appearance. Well, I find it kind of embarrassing but it does make me feel sexy.
I’m one of those women who dressed pretty modestly when I was younger. I didn’t want to call too much attention to my body. But nowadays, I’m more confident and I’ve even started wearing clothes that I previously thought were too form-fitting. (And they’re really not) And I’m dressing mainly for me – sometimes privately for MR…
Marcia,
“The passion and sexual tension (…) Maybe thatās what people on here miss.”
I agree, that’s definitely something you’d (try to) get from limerence.
Snow,
“Oh, Sis, I Never, Never did your kind of āgussy upā for a date or social activity; thatās be too much for me. The only difference for me between working and dating is a light-layer of makeup on the face; nothing elseā¦.”
I used to get really dressed up when I went out when I was young. Heels, skirts, etc. I don’t do that so much anymore unless it’s a special occasion. A very special occasion. š But I do like to show off the dimensions of the package with the right clothes. But as I wrote in the other posts, there’s a certain sameness and predictability to adult life. The likelihood I’d need to show off the package is so, so low. And if I do spend the time and it turns out there was no need to gussy up, I kind of resent the time I wasted.
Trifles,
[āThe passion and sexual tension (ā¦) Maybe thatās what people on here miss.ā]
“I agree, thatās definitely something youād (try to) get from limerence.”
But that’s the issue. The only way to keep getting it is to keep having LEs.
šØ,
āFor me it was just an interesting topic of debate, for him something deeper. ā
As I said in my previous post, Stoicism is a type of mindset or a belief system like Christianity or Buddhism. If your MF is not a Christian or Buddhist or ready to open to/discuss about it, are you trying to push/force him to debate with you or accept itš ā
āHowever, I donāt think I will or can change. ā
No one asks you for that! there is nothing you need change about your inner self, especially your mentality. It will bring you more joy and peace in any circumstances (compared to less Stoic people), because youāve prepared for the worst, while still putting best effort in whatever youāre doing (mentally, emotionally, or physically)
āThough I am learning more on how and where to take his feelings into account. ā
Yes, you should and have to! š©š»āāļø Iām learning from Marcia to listen to/observe people well and find out that they truly want and whether they can or even wanna take what you wish to give, please donāt take it for granted that what we desire is the same or even similar as your MR or anyone else.
āI will continue to debate and air my sometimes controversial opinions with those who are close to me. Thatās just part of me. ā
You can do it freely with everyone else, but your BP is the FIRST and most important person youād carefully weigh how your controversial opinions could possibly trigger his old wounds/insecurity and possibly hurt your relationship. Itās a very delicate dynamic and needs a balance.
āBut I will have to convince him that those are just that to me: philosophical debates, not necessarily indicators of our relationship. ā
āHave toāāš At current stage, anyone, aside from you, would be better to āblowā Stoicism into his head while you try to keep that LE-like flame burning. Later, when heās stronger and more trustful of your affection for him, then you can try to be both āa teacher and a studentā to each other, like in sense of Aristotelian friendship. By then, you can debate the Moon š off the Solar system if you wish āļø
āIt will probably take time for that trust to grow.ā
Definitely! And please be patient like a true Stoicāļøš«
Lady Marcia,
Youāre getting up faster and faster on the stage š I could barely keep up with you!
āThere can be deeper connections but itās not a guarantee. I get tired of hearing āfamily is everything.ā Because sometimes it just isnāt.ā
There is also myth in COO family system; the blood tie is stronger over there in loyalty or acts of services. The culture believes that you canāt truly get away from your blood and you should appreciate your parents no matter what they have done to/with you, since they have brought your life on this earth āone undeniable truth. Without believing any life after death, all one has is this life, thus the most important to be āhere and nowā.
āIām in the middle of reading something else. Iāll put it on the list. ā
Once you read ā1984ā, youād understand some reference such as Big Brother, or Room 101, and theoretical or imaginable comparisons between a capitalist and a communist system.
āThatās where Iām from. The West. ā
Despite its advances in many fields of Western life, it has its own shortcomings and near-sightedness compared to your ancient civilization such as the Greek one.
āWhat was the government before the communists? Was it better or worse?ā
The current Taiwan government was holding the power in COO before 1949. Itās an early model of an advanced democratic system.
āI agree. Is she a limerent? Wanting the security of marriage and the side LOs ? ā
Majority of her affairs were conducted when she was securely married, including one affair with Henry Miller ( & several others). All her journals were not published until her banker husband, Hugo, was dead (Watch the movie āHenry and June). Based on the mainstream, sheās an immoral libertine. But her journal is deeply psychological soaked with rich and colorful human emotions.
āYou got me! Depending on what they text me, sometimes I respond back with one sentence or just some emoji. ā
Well, your one-line sentences are always insights or meanings loaded; they appreciated your brevity and wanted to hear your insightful thoughts on pop culture or other stuff.
[āA lot of people HERE are self-centered, eager to express their feelings, thoughts, or wants but listen to others superficially. Truly mature and caring people would listen carefully to what you say or wish to get from your mutual friendship. Thatās why I highly appreciate keen ears. āāØWell, some of this stuff is kind of advanced. Iām just reading about some of this, and I am not young. Love languages, etc. ]
Iām not sure what youāre talking about here. What advanced āstuffā? āLove languagesā?
āItās rare to find a good listener.ā
Itās INDEED in this instant texting era.
āGotcha. Iām just aware of how much I knew about other friends in the past. I knew so much about their current lives, their pasts. I knew their stories. But itās been a while since Iāve had a friend like that. ā
Everyoneās life is made of stories, by which variety of thoughts and emotions are accompanied. They can be boring stuff or fascinating, depending how their stories are self-described and perceived by their listeners.
āNow that is something I might have asked. Just to people who are bilingual. As I am not. I wouldnāt have asked to be obnoxious.
Thatās a common āerrorā many native speakers may make. As mentioned before, my mind goes to two different planes while speaking in different tongues, due to their cultural influences. So Iām speaking more freely here than talking in COO tongue anywhere else.
āI meant a topic that was actually important to me and my life. ā
For a close friend, Iād listen to whatever they think its important to their life (and why), and learn about it, if Iām very ignorant of it. That actually makes a friendship more interesting to have something refreshing to learn. Who wants to talk to oneās āechosā all the timeāļø
āLike I wrote, I genuinely like her. She is very smart and generous and helpful. Sheās good at talking to people and sociable. But thereās the abruptness and the aversion to important topics. ā
I think there are some kind of taboos or traumas related to those āimportant topicsā, and she wants to keep them private, which I would not insist on prying. Everyone needs to have an inner sanctuary to feel guarded and safe.
āHa! Yes. Youāre describing a job. Go from one poopy job to another! Theyāre all the same at their core. ā
Yes, itās in job situation. But it also applies to dating life or finding a fast hookup.
āWell, the roller coaster eventually slows down. No matter how many times you get on a new one. Itās life. ā
Precisely. The roller coaster would crush if it spins at its highest speed non-stope for 5 minutes. So our physiological and psychological system cannot and should not run like a roller coaster. Limerence brings that kind of roller-coaster HIGHā¦ I canāt take such a physical ride in any amusement park, not even ski from a high slope.
āI mean, either way, it all cools down to a friendship, anyway. If youāre lucky. ā
Yes, friendship lasts longer than hot romance. Without always expecting LE high, one can enjoy steady, deeply connected friendship.
āIām guessing here, because of course I donāt know them. But he likes that she attracts attention from other men. Heās āthat guyā with the hot woman. (Yes, itās shallow.)ā
Itās understandable that he loves competition, but sheās NOT hot to me at all, but, Iām not a man! When it comes to romance, we often see a smart man, walking around with a shallow-looking woman, but not the other way around. I was watching this phenomenon while working on the poll site, fascinating.š¤Ø
āWell, Iām not currently feeling any of these things, but maybe theyāre in there somewhere. ā
Because I think your LONGING is blocking them emerging from deep inside of you! I wouldnāt have known this, either, if my Longing didnāt go away. I had little idea what could possibly be buried beneath it.
āIām not entirely sure what weāre talking about here, but the West isnāt a monolith. ā
I meant that (in general by proportion) people in the West pursue short lived, steamy, sky-rocketing romance that is often followed by heartaches, particularly in unrequited limerence, for a much longer time. But even knowing such a truth doesnāt necessarily stop them, they keep chasing that imagined Nirvana high!
āThis is what you value. It doesnāt mean itās better or worse than what other people value. ā
This is not even what I value personally. All I observed is that the Western ways have brought many people (not everyone) so much more pains and heartaches (just examine literature, arts, songs, media, etc.) which I also suffered during my last LE. I began to value more of the Eastern ways only after coming out of the lengthy LE. Meanwhile, I still feel Iām romantic ā making something out of nothing (giving things meanings that others donāt see), in general matters.
āDid they have music with it? Sometimes theyāll be an orchestra playing and that can be really great. ā
No, not the annual one here. The Versailles fireworks with Fountain water dancing under orchestra is absolutely fabulous! I highly recommend! It costs $30 per ticket.
āThatās challenge even to a native speaker.āāØItās not a challenge for me. ā
Your brevity is extraordinary and amazing! My ex-step-father-in-law, who was one of Robert Kennedyās young lawyers, told me that Americans are generally āpoorā in good concise writing. I guess you might work as an editor in some pop culture environment.
āThere is such a thing as over-writing. Have you ever read a book of literature and itās paragraph after paragraph about the weather or the setting. And sometimes you think ā¦ ok. Enough already. ā
Oh, I canāt standing weather topics although understand its function as background atmosphere for plots, such as in āMadame Bovaryā the opening scene. Some poetry is also over loaded with sceneries.
āNot at all. A lot of jobs are repetitious. You pretty much know whatās going to happen ahead of time. The party I went to ā¦ I pretty much knew who would be there, what we would talk about (as a general rule), what time Iād come home. ā
Yes, these can be predictable. But still one could treat each event with a bit of ānewā angle. Then, the impression would slightly vary, eg our previous lady-colleaguesā bi-annul gathering.
āWhat would be different about a day, what Iād reflect on at the end of it, is if something happened that was unusual. ā
Well, I donāt think one can predict how one feels and then reflects at the end of the day. For the same day, youād feel grumpy if youāre in bad mood or under weather, but neutral/content if you changed an angle while reflecting on it. Have you seen the movie, āGroundhog Dayā? Changing oneās perspective, the day would appear differently, might be completely opposite!
āWell, yes. Itās not that the party was darkness. I had a nice time, but I wouldnāt call it exciting. Now, one can only take so much excitement at one time or else oneās nervous system would be shot. ā
Exactly! If something is exciting, then there must be something boring by comparison; it cannot be all boring or all exciting all the time; a duality has to be there. If youāre locked up with LO-lite 24/7 for a week, then tell me how youāre going to feel!
āOh, yeah. When he came over, I was high as a kite. ā
Then take the flight with the kite! As you say, the moment does not lastā¦ š
āMaybe it is. I donāt know. The glimmer isnāt just, āOh, heās cute.ā Itās a lot more than that, and I donāt feel it that often. Maybe itās triggering something psychological in me. ā
I agree with you here on Glimmer, itās never āshallowā or simple as just physical lust. Glimmer has degrees! I only had 3 big ones. There were 31 years passed between G4 and G7, with many smaller ones in betweenā¦.
āI just never expected that. I already had close friends. ā
I guess I treated it differently than your way. I wanted and tried to make LO into a friend. Otherwise, there would be no chance for the intellections to last comfortably.
āShe did, but she also knew how to talk to them and genuinely liked them. And I think that came through in her interactions with them. ā
I like(d) my male co-workers or male friends, as long as we were not a LO, in one direction or both ways.
āI was jealous of my friend growing up. I felt like I melted into the wallpaper when she was around. ā
I felt quite inadequate in front of my ex-mother-in-law and my lady-friend, too. I want to feel their easiness in front of a group or one-person, men and woman. But they both are also superficial in someways; they did not talk/discuss with me about philosophical or psychological stuff. Music, films, arts, creativity, and cultures were involved, for sure.
āHave you saved them all? I donāt think Iād want to do that with mine. ā
Every single piece of my own, I treated them as a journal entry.
āWell, theyāre sincere in the moment ā¦ and then the moment is gone. ā
Yes, When French men compliment you, it feels sincere. Theyāre well trained by their mothers in this arena.
āTheyāre mostly women who are texting me. Iām not someone who has a lot of male orbiters. ā
Iām too much of a lone-wolf to have either male or female orbiters. My female acquaintance tend to be too much chitchatting about āsalt & pepperā stuff, which bore my head off…
āIf I like someone, I want them around but if I donāt really like them or half-like them, I donāt want them hanging around. I donāt have the energy to keep them hanging around. ā
Itās either ALL or Nothing, the same here with your INFP Sis. š«
āI agree but they donāt really add much color to my life currently. ā
Itās up to me whether to add some colors to their existence and my interactions with them. Itās not situations but my reactions to the situations make them trivial or important. One can trivialize superficial ānobleā activities; or noblize seemingly ātrivialā stuff.
āØāIām the opposite. It doesnāt mean I donāt remember the friendship as it was or have some fond memories, but theyāre not āhere and nowā if I barely see or talk to them in the present. Itās a past friendship that is either over or has morphed into more of a friendly acquaintanceship. I no longer consider us close friends. ā
I guess I have two āhere and nowā dimensions ā one in reality/physical; one in mind/mental. So there are people āhere and nowā in my reality; and there are people (past friends, family members, LOs) āhere and nowā in my mind ā thatās what writers work withā characters, realistic or conjured up, in the past or the present.
āI feel the same about my past LOs. If Iām not currently limerent for them, theyāre in the past and Iād like them to stay there. ā
When I say anything or anyone was/is in the past, that means they are neither āhere and nowā in my reality or in my mind the most of the time. They occasionally popped in my head, of course; but left quickly as well.
āYes, but I want to focus more on now. The people in my life now. What Iām working on or focusing now. Within the last few years and current times. ā
Of course! Oneās energy and focus are limited.
[āYes. We canāt have our head always wrapped around xLO or LO-lite, right?āāØOh, if it were that simple. ā]
No, itās very difficult, I certain know! But when our mind is stuck there, our life is stuckā¦ *sigh* our other vital natures then are buried underneath of our longing for LO or for something unknown. š
āIām not going to do anything about it, but I think about LO-lite a lot. ā
I can understand it. Heās very much āhere and nowā in your head!
āChronic conditions? Maybe, depending on what it is. Diet changes, supplements, meditation, stress reduction, exercise could all help. ā
Herbal medicine in France and in COO deal with preventive health, which is heavily influenced by our mental and emotional stress. If we donāt know how to manage our stress, e.g. LE or career stress, we are bound to get very sick soon or later. There are thyroid diseases and cancers on rise in recent years, which is mostly stress related.
āOh, we always have choices. You might not like them, but we do have choices. ā
Based on Sartre, thatās scary, which is our ācurseā in which we are essentially responsible for all our actions, joys and pains, happiness and miseries. Donāt blame God or fate for your lot! ā Sartre and Carl Jung.
Typo: āthere would be no chance for the interactions to last comfortably.ā
I donāt understand why my Glimmer in the always selected strangers, while I do like and appreciate familiarity, comfort, and the sense of emotional and mental connectionsā¦
If my Longing is gone, perhaps Iād never Glimmer at anyone againāand I donāt use apps, so Iāll just keep being a lone š š° (no more wolf šŗ , eitherā¦)
Miss Snow,
Ok. Back on stage. Certainly respond if you want to. If/when you feel up to it. No pressure. š I’m making this one extra long, just to stick it to MJ! š
“Youāre getting up faster and faster on the stage š I could barely keep up with you!”
I had some downtime this weekend. š
“There is also myth in COO family system; the blood tie is stronger over there in loyalty or acts of services.”
Do you find this to be true in your own life? I’m under no illusion my family would help me if I really needed them to.
“The culture believes that you canāt truly get away from your blood and you should appreciate your parents no matter what they have done to/with you, since they have brought your life on this earth āone undeniable truth. ”
That is true. And there is some value in tradition. Not always. Not blindly following it. But finding value in some of it.
“Once you read ā1984ā, youād understand some reference such as Big Brother, or Room 101, and theoretical or imaginable comparisons between a capitalist and a communist system.”
As I wrote, I have read “Animal Farm” but not “1984.”
“Despite its advances in many fields of Western life, it has its own shortcomings and near-sightedness compared to your ancient civilization such as the Greek one.”
In a lot of ways, Western culture is very gluttonous and materialistic.
“The current Taiwan government was holding the power in COO before 1949. Itās an early model of an advanced democratic system.”
So … your parents lived through something of a revolution? Or a government overthrow? I’m not excusing everything they did as parents, but sometimes when we find out about someone else’s life, what they went through, it helps us understand them better.
“All her journals were not published until her banker husband, Hugo, was dead (Watch the movie āHenry and June). ”
The book I have is the journals from when she met June and then soon after had an affair with Henry.
“Based on the mainstream, sheās an immoral libertine.”
Well, she was a bigamist when she died. I don’t know if both men kind of knew/suspected the other’s existence and looked the other way.
“But her journal is deeply psychological soaked with rich and colorful human emotions.”
If you pull up the wikipedia page about her, her writing is described as erotica. Now, I’ve only read the one part of her journals, but I would not describe it as erotica. It has sexual elements in it but it’s not particularly graphic. Her relationship with Henry Miller is sexual but also intellectual. She’s exploring who she is through sex. Exploring her feelings, her reactions, etc.
“Well, your one-line sentences are always insights or meanings loaded; they appreciated your brevity and wanted to hear your insightful thoughts on pop culture or other stuff.”
Maybe. Idk. I text back stuff that is pretty banal. I’m not “on the stage” with them. š
Iām not sure what youāre talking about here. What advanced āstuffā? āLove languagesā?
The love languages are based on a book by Gary Chapman. There are five: words of affirmation, acts of service, receiving gifts, quality time and physical touch.
They are the ways people express and experience love. So in a VERY simplified explanation, if you like someone to give you gifts to feel loved and they instead give you lots of compliments (words of affirmation), their expression of love won’t be received by you.
Since then, those original five love languages have been updated/expanded. They are now: Activity, Appreciation, Emotional, Financial, Intellectual, Physical and Practical.
You can Google more more about them. The original 5 didn’t really resonate with me. The new 7 do.
“Itās INDEED in this instant texting era.”
Yes. It’s so impersonal.
“Everyoneās life is made of stories, by which variety of thoughts and emotions are accompanied. They can be boring stuff or fascinating, depending how their stories are self-described and perceived by their listeners.”
It’s not really a matter of being boring or fascinating. These stories reveal what makes someone tick. So my one friend … I knew about her childhood, her parents’ divorce, their remarriages, her relationship with her siblings/stepsiblings, all her romantic relationships, who she’d been happiest with, where she’d lived as an adult, where she’d been happiest and why, the things she wanted out of life now, etc. It takes time to really get to know someone like that. I don’t have any friends who I know that well now.
“Thatās a common āerrorā many native speakers may make. As mentioned before, my mind goes to two different planes while speaking in different tongues, due to their cultural influences. So Iām speaking more freely here than talking in COO tongue anywhere else.”
Ok. So I was wrong about that. I’m not bilingual, but I can kind of/sort of piece together another language. (I am far from fluent.) So I think in English first and then try to piece the words together of the other language.
“For a close friend, Iād listen to whatever they think its important to their life (and why), and learn about it, if Iām very ignorant of it. That actually makes a friendship more interesting to have something refreshing to learn. Who wants to talk to oneās āechosā all the timeāļø”
Well, I wasn’t really teaching her anything. I was talking about men and the romantic stuff I’ve experienced of late. Not in any detailed way. Just a general discussion. And she listened but didn’t have all that much to say about it. I just got the feeling it wasn’t a topic she was all that interested in. And of late, that’s been a big topic for me.
“I think there are some kind of taboos or traumas related to those āimportant topicsā, and she wants to keep them private, ”
Yes, that is possible. That may be a topic for whatever reason based on her own life she doesn’t want to discuss. It just makes me miss the kind of friendship I described to you above. The minute anything happened with LO-lite, for example, that kind of friend would already have had the entire backstory of my interactions with him (and I wouldn’t have had to edit out the seedier details, which I did with this new friend) and we would have had a deep dive conversation into what he said and did. I have no friends I can talk that way with now.
“Yes, itās in job situation. But it also applies to dating life or finding a fast hookup.”
Yes.
“Precisely. The roller coaster would crush if it spins at its highest speed non-stope for 5 minutes. So our physiological and psychological system cannot and should not run like a roller coaster.”
Well, our system can handle it, but not for very long. Which is why Mother Nature calms that stuff down over time. You can’t live in limerence forever. Physically and emotionally, you’d be shot. And you wouldn’t get anything else done.
“Yes, friendship lasts longer than hot romance. ”
Most definitely.
“Itās understandable that he loves competition, but sheās NOT hot to me at all, but, Iām not a man!”
I don’t think she is, either. But she makes herself up in a very flashy, chest-hanging-out kind of way.
“When it comes to romance, we often see a smart man, walking around with a shallow-looking woman, but not the other way around. ”
Right. Because she pulls out another side of him.
“Because I think your LONGING is blocking them emerging from deep inside of you! I wouldnāt have known this, either, if my Longing didnāt go away. I had little idea what could possibly be buried beneath it.”
I’ll take your word for it. š
“I meant that (in general by proportion) people in the West pursue short lived, steamy, sky-rocketing romance that is often followed by heartaches, particularly in unrequited limerence, for a much longer time. But even knowing such a truth doesnāt necessarily stop them, they keep chasing that imagined Nirvana high!”
I agree with you. I thought you were saying you’d lived in a couple of cities in the West and therefore understood all of Western culture. Which is kind of like me saying I’d lived in one or two Russian cities and therefore understood the country as a whole. Which would be impossible. It’s very diverse.
“This is not even what I value personally. All I observed is that the Western ways have brought many people (not everyone) so much more pains and heartaches (just examine literature, arts, songs, media, etc.)”
It’s an interesting paradox. The people who partnered or married someone who they are compatible with but maybe weren’t limerent for in the beginning (they have a strong friendship) sometimes later miss not having had the steamy romance.
“Meanwhile, I still feel Iām romantic ā making something out of nothing (giving things meanings that others donāt see), in general matters.”
So you’re a romantic in everything but matters of romance?
” The Versailles fireworks with Fountain water dancing under orchestra is absolutely fabulous! I highly recommend! It costs $30 per ticket.”
That sounds wonderful.
“My ex-step-father-in-law, who was one of Robert Kennedyās young lawyers, ”
Really? He worked on Kennedy’s campaign?
“I guess you might work as an editor in some pop culture environment.”
Lol. You would be wrong. š
“Oh, I canāt standing weather topics although understand its function as background atmosphere for plots, such as in āMadame Bovaryā the opening scene. ”
I was thinking of “Of Human Bondage.” It’s really a book about limerence and the relationship the main character has with this waitress, who is awful to him. But the first part of the book is about his childhood. It’s like … please get to the main story. š
“Have you seen the movie, āGroundhog Dayā? ”
I have. I like it very much.
“Changing oneās perspective, the day would appear differently, might be completely opposite!”
Idk. I kind of feel like I’m going through the motions lately. That I’m here … but not here.
“If youāre locked up with LO-lite 24/7 for a week, then tell me how youāre going to feel!”
Yes, you’re absolutely right. As I always felt about big LO … a few dates with him might have really helped to diminish the limerence. Reality setting in. š
“As you say, the moment does not lastā¦ š”
It doesn’t. These various moments just exist as memories that you kind of string together in your mind.
“I agree with you here on Glimmer, itās never āshallowā or simple as just physical lust. Glimmer has degrees! I only had 3 big ones. There were 31 years passed between G4 and G7, with many smaller ones in betweenā¦.”
You skipped over G5 and G6. š Were they the smaller ones?
“I guess I treated it differently than your way. I wanted and tried to make LO into a friend. Otherwise, there would be no chance for the intellections to last comfortably.”
I guess I saw the limerent feelings as almost otherworldly. (This is all hindsight. I didn’t really understand this at the time.) They were above every day life. I remember hanging out (non-sexually) with my college LO, and he made no effort to really take me on a date. He didn’t have a chivalrous bone in his body. And I remember thinking even then, even in the middle of all that crazy infatuation, he was a lousy date.
But if I was looking for a boyfriend … it wasn’t just … does this guy light me up? … it was … seeing if I liked him, could talk to him, if he was making effort consistently to keep in touch, if he was showing up consistently on dates, if he was listening, if he had character, if we had things in common.
And that’s just the beginning! By the time you filter for all of that stuff (and also if the person wanted a committed relationship, which is huge) … the romantic and sexual feelings had to be compromised. Something’s got to give. You won’t get everything.
“I like(d) my male co-workers or male friends, as long as we were not a LO, in one direction or both ways.”
I totally agree. I work with a good number of men and get along with them. But I don’t have romantic/sexual feelings for them and I don’t think they do for me. Those are what get me into trouble. š
“Yes, When French men compliment you, it feels sincere.”
I’m not sure how that’s different than other men, but ok. š
[āIf I like someone, I want them around but if I donāt really like them or half-like them, I donāt want them hanging around. I donāt have the energy to keep them hanging around. ā]
“Itās either ALL or Nothing, the same here with your INFP Sis. š«”
Right? That’s why dating is so hard.
“Itās not situations but my reactions to the situations make them trivial or important. One can trivialize superficial ānobleā activities; or noblize seemingly ātrivialā stuff.”
Well, there’s some truth to this. Yes.
“I guess I have two āhere and nowā dimensions ā one in reality/physical; one in mind/mental. So there are people āhere and nowā in my reality; and there are people (past friends, family members, LOs) āhere and nowā in my mind ā thatās what writers work withā characters, realistic or conjured up, in the past or the present.”
Well, I’ve actually been writing more lately. Because I have recent stuff to draw from. I don’t write about the past that much. I don’t mean that everything is within a week or two but I’m not going back 20 years, for example.
“When I say anything or anyone was/is in the past, that means they are neither āhere and nowā in my reality or in my mind the most of the time. They occasionally popped in my head, of course; but left quickly as well.”
I see what you’re saying. Me, too. Although I did have a dream about my LO the other night (not LO-lite). I was looking for him. Though I seemed to be at an airport. Which is weird. I couldn’t find him. I guess that’s a metaphor for … I’ll never see him again.
“No, itās very difficult, I certain know! But when our mind is stuck there, our life is stuckā¦ *sigh*”
It does feel that way. And he is soooo avoiding me. Now, do I regret having the experience? If you’d have asked me a couple of weeks ago, I would have said yes. Now, I don’t know.
“Herbal medicine in France and in COO deal with preventive health, which is heavily influenced by our mental and emotional stress.”
Yes. Preventative. The West isn’t preventative. Just reactive.
“If we donāt know how to manage our stress, e.g. LE or career stress, we are bound to get very sick soon or later. There are thyroid diseases and cancers on rise in recent years, which is mostly stress related.”
But also chronic conditions like diabetes can sometimes be really helped with diet, for example.
“Based on Sartre, thatās scary, which is our ācurseā in which we are essentially responsible for all our actions, joys and pains, happiness and miseries. ”
There’s some truth to that, too. I was just thinking that sometimes the choices are so bad, the only choice is not to choose! š
“I donāt understand why my Glimmer in the always selected strangers, while I do like and appreciate familiarity, comfort, and the sense of emotional and mental connectionsā¦”
That’s actually a good thing. You have some hope of the glimmer-inducing situations lasting.
“If my Longing is gone, perhaps Iād never Glimmer at anyone againāand I donāt use apps, so Iāll just keep being a lone š š° ”
Don’t get me started on the apps. They are awful!
Lady Marcia,
āOk. Back on stage. Certainly respond if you want to. If/when you feel up to it. No pressure. ā
Lightš® is on! Focus here š” Iām here to have a chat š¬ with her Ladyship Marcia ššæ
āIām making this one extra long, just to stick it to MJ! ā
Sir š¦ clings and crawls on the LwL walls, heād listen to our fabulous audiobooks ššš, no one can distract his ears except perhaps his missing Grandpa š².
āØāI had some downtime this weekend. ā
You deserve two day break for working on July 4th!
āØāDo you find this to be true in your own life? Iām under no illusion my family would help me if I really needed them to.āØ
I donāt feel strongly related to even to Mom, let alone other relatives, with whom Iād just chitchat their āsalt & pepperā stuff. But if I visit them in their hometowns, I have to see them or eat out together with them from 1-5 times, because theyād invite me to a ābanquetā. One of my 18 cousins on Mom side died of lung cancer a few years ago; Mom, my Uncle, and aunt donated money for his daughterās 4-year college education (I never met her).
When my another cousin got motorcycle incident, my Granny, Dad, uncle, aunt (his own Mom) all helped pay the heavy hospital charge before he died in 4 days. If I need some help, yes, my relatives, whether knowing me well or not, would help. If this % risk happens with my surgery, Mom could go to one of my three cousins living in this country, theyāll take a good care of her until she leaves. I can count on them without asking them in advance.
āThat is true. And there is some value in tradition. Not always. Not blindly following it. But finding value in some of it.ā
Every culture has good values and bad one. One has to live through or taste some of them in order to find which values to keep, which to trash. In the US, different cultural values have just a bit of easier time to last than some other homogenous society. It should not be a āmelting potā, but an āintegrating potā.
āØāAs I wrote, I have read āAnimal Farmā but not ā1984.ā
They are quite different. The first one is only involved some cartoon characters. The latter is brilliantly imagined yet realistic communist society. Your hair could stand up while comprehending some horrible details. There is a central love story in it, letās see how you feel about Winstonās love with Julia under Big Brotherās noseā¦
āØāIn a lot of ways, Western culture is very gluttonous and materialistic.ā
Youāre insightful! The issue is that gluttonous in tangible materials is achievable but gets boring soon once one acquires them. On the the hand, gluttonous in Intangible stuff like fame, popularity, social status and love certainly lead oneās life into uncertainty, anxiety, pain, and despair. Such a pursuit is not wrong, but the degree and intensity of the pursuits could drives one up to roof. Moderation is a virtue both in the ancient Greek and Chinese civilizations.
āØāSo ā¦ your parents lived through something of a revolution? Or a government overthrow? Iām not excusing everything they did as parents, but sometimes when we find out about someone elseās life, what they went through, it helps us understand them better.ā
Yes, my parents lived through the big revolution: Communist overthrew the nationalist government. It was true that some proletariansā life got ābetterā but both Momās and Dadās respective families got worse, because the new government took away their lands and properties, respectively. Granny had good memories about what happened; my parents on the other hand did not talk or dislike to talk about their lived through history. They first thought the government-switching was a good thing and supported it; and later found it horrible and horrendously inhuman..
āØāWell, she was a bigamist when she died. I donāt know if both men kind of knew/suspected the otherās existence and looked the other way.ā
I didnāt pay much attention to her late life, but heard she always had lovers no matter at what age. And there were men who, like you say, were willing to look the other way while being around her. Somehow sheās that much of magneticš§²!
āØāIf you pull up the wikipedia page about her, her writing is described as erotica. Now, Iāve only read the one part of her journals, but I would not describe it as erotica. It has sexual elements in it but itās not particularly graphic. ā
Thatās why I rarely read mainstream reviews or biographical stuff, Iād like to read something to have my own senses, though very unprofessional. Her journals are not erotica or sexually graphic to me, but her emotions and mentality put into each amorous encounter is š ānakedā, that the reader could feel āconnectedā to her in deep, intensified waysā¦
Her relationship with Henry Miller is sexual but also intellectual. Sheās exploring who she is through sex. Exploring her feelings, her reactions, etc.ā
Yes, their relationship is highly intellectual, creative, and sexual. Thatās what I meant that intellectual and artistic closeness ā openness and mutual inspiration, could intensify sensual and sexual experiences and connections. I donāt think limerence (so much unknowns and fantasies involved) could ever reach there! š
I am envious of the quality of the relationship Henry Miller and Anais Nin had. They were both highly individualistic and independent, yet tango well in their relationship! By contrast, Miller and Juneās marital dynamic was much less sparking and sometimes agonizing to watch, because the insecure June had no/little center of herself, she was āsuckingā othersā affection/attraction for her, from both men and women, so as to search and locate her inner self, of course, in vainā¼ļø You see her painful LONGING in what she said/did and how she behaved in relating to others.
āØāMaybe. Idk. I text back stuff that is pretty banal. Iām not āon the stageā with them. ā
Banal or not does not always depend on the writer, but the reader. You intend one thing, the listener heard another (could be positive or negative or both or neither). Thatās how miscommunication and misunderstanding occurred in interactions even in banal matters; Forget about those highly charged love or limerence affairs. š
Iāll respond the rest later; otherwise, Sir š¦ is going to fall off the wall š¤ tonight (or in the dawn).
To be continued ā Part 1
Dame Marcia,
āØāThe love languages are based on a book by Gary Chapman. There are five: words of affirmation, acts of service, receiving gifts, quality time and physical touch.ā
I see. Iāve never heard of him until now. By the surfaces of 5 words, I think COO is weak in: words of affirmation, quality time, and physical touch and very strong in acts of service and giving/receiving gifts.
āØ āThey are the ways people express and experience love. So in a VERY simplified explanation, if you like someone to give you gifts to feel loved and they instead give you lots of compliments (words of affirmation), their expression of love wonāt be received by you.ā
I understand. I donāt care about receiving gifts much (but giving the way too much, small but meaningful ones) , but WORDS accompanied by ACTS of service. In COO ā deeply seeped in national, introverted treats, one sometimes receive gifts without understanding WHY, in relationships, eg. Is it a gratitude or an indirect expression of affection? In business, one is expected to have learned how to understand weight of all sorts of gifts.
āØāSince then, those original five love languages have been updated/expanded. They are now: Activity, Appreciation, Emotional, Financial, Intellectual, Physical and Practical.
You can Google more about them. The original 5 didnāt really resonate with me. The new 7 do.ā
Just googled, and Iād go for the new 7. My challenge lies on verbal expression of āEmotional. I did not grow up with it, itās something of an embarrassment (in COO, it is considered directly related to physical intimacy, which was categorized as low, carnal desire, which of course everyone has but just doesnāt talk about it. ) One does it mainly through INDIRECT poetic languages or someone elseās pomes. Youāll be amazed at how a COO person could go around and around in speaking or writing, to express āI love youā without ever saying the 3 magic words directly. Someone told me that Japan is similar in this.
āØ[āItās INDEED in this instant texting era.āāØYes. Itās so impersonal.]
I donāt like texting, but have little choice. Nowadays, a phone call is considered urgent. Rarely anyone chats on phone any longer.
āØāItās not really a matter of being boring or fascinating. These stories reveal what makes someone tick. ā
Well, a lot of times, even āstory tellersā themselves did/do not know what makes them tick, especially when they are affluent. Poorer people know what they need, often canāt afford what they want; thus change or reduce their wants to obtain some inner peace. How many of limerents here know exactly what they want from their LE, especially when they already have a āgoodā SO?
āSo my one friend ā¦ I knew about her childhood, her parentsā divorce, their remarriages, her relationship with her siblings/stepsiblings, all her romantic relationships, who sheād been happiest with, where sheād lived as an adult, where sheād been happiest and why, the things she wanted out of life now, etc. It takes time to really get to know someone like that. I donāt have any friends who I know that well now.ā
I would call her a ābosom friendā, which I have wished to have since 4 years old. I never had a friend whom I know in this much of details and depth, but only a bulk of knowledge in scattered details. Also, I would not have revealed all of me, especially in emotional department, there should be a personal sanctuary place within each person, which only oneās own God knows well.
āØāOk. So I was wrong about that. Iām not bilingual, but I can kind of/sort of piece together another language. (I am far from fluent.) So I think in English first and then try to piece the words together of the other language.ā
Thatās very natural. All of 2nd language is started like that. I just canāt remember starting when I stopped translating first in the head. Last night, when I dreamt to answer your remaining questions, they were in English; I kind of wanted to argue with you about something with many words and sentencesā¦.
āØāWell, I wasnāt really teaching her anything. I was talking about men and the romantic stuff Iāve experienced of late. Not in any detailed way. Just a general discussion. ā
Teaching/preaching doesnāt have to take place in a classroom or tutoring, it could be subconscious through casual chats or discussion. It also depends on how the listener takes it.
āAnd she listened but didnāt have all that much to say about it. I just got the feeling it wasnāt a topic she was all that interested in. And of late, thatās been a big topic for me.ā
Willing to listen is a willingness to learn about; and willing to respond or ask questions is a true attempt to acquire deeper knowledge about the speaker and about oneself. Your friend stays on superficial facts, but unwilling to dig deep substantial stuff about you or herself.
In this particular topic of yours, she did not want to build an empathetic connection with you (giving sympathy is easier). Well, thatās a normal phenomenon, we have to respect othersā choice. āYou can take a horse to the river, but you cannot make it drink the water.ā
āØāYes, that is possible. That may be a topic for whatever reason based on her own life she doesnāt want to discuss. It just makes me miss the kind of friendship I described to you above. ā
The kind of friendship you described above is something one may not ever find in oneās entire life, itās rare like finding a diamond. š
āThe minute anything happened with LO-lite, for example, that kind of friend would already have had the entire backstory of my interactions with him (and I wouldnāt have had to edit out the seedier details, which I did with this new friend) and we would have had a deep dive conversation into what he said and did. I have no friends I can talk that way with now.ā
I never had one friend I could talk with as you have wished above. With my previous insecurity and that agonizing longing, I would not easily reveal my personal affairs to anyone else, probably afraid of being judged and criticized, especially by close friends. I have to salute you for being so brave and open on this LwL stage ā š” šŖ š”!
āØāWell, our system can handle it, but not for very long. Which is why Mother Nature calms that stuff down over time. You canāt live in limerence forever. Physically and emotionally, youād be shot. And you wouldnāt get anything else done.ā
But in some cultures, one is taught to avoid taking this metaphorical roller coaster in oneās life. COO had done a pretty good job through its ancient culture and modern political system ā just repress the needs since the time one is still on diaper!
I know limerence exists over there, but without or with LE knowledge, I hadnāt witnessed or heard a lot in reality or in books/media. As you said, with limerence, one could hardly function, physically, emotionally, and mentally. I believe, one of my direct cousins from my father side, had it once after her boyfriend dumped her in her 20s. She was described to have gone mad for a year or twoā wandering in the street unkempt and mumbling something no one could understand (she lived with my uncle and aunt back then). But she later found her current husband and has a HS kid now.
āØāI donāt think she is, either. But she makes herself up in a very flashy, chest-hanging-out kind of way.ā
This one physical feature marks her as having NO elegance/taste. And the richest man in the world likes it, ridiculous! š±
āØāRight. Because she pulls out another side of him.ā
I donāt know/understand about this; why another side of a man needs to be pulled out and demonstrated through a tacky/shallow woman? Does he have any wisdom in his head? No wonder he has treated his employees so terribly š”!! Unfortunately, money in this world also produces a lot of evil deeds, while it can and has benefited humanities in some limited ways.
āØ[āBecause I think your LONGING is blocking them emerging from deep inside of you! I wouldnāt have known this, either, if my Longing didnāt go away. I had little idea what could possibly be buried beneath it.āāØIāll take your word for it. ]
If you check the IFS I put out today, youāll see 16 benevolent Self traits. That Longing often obscures and surepasses some or all of them. I marked which ones were buried deep inside of me while my Longing was still with me. Now I can see what one have emerged ever since the Longing was gone, itās a huge differenceā¦
The Longing resides inside of (or deeply relates to) 11 universal Vulnerabilities, and 48 Protectors are our personality traits (everyone has only some of them, not all) that protect our vulnerabilities. Itās a fascinating Internal Family system, if you have time, give IFS a reading to see who your internal family members are and which Self is repressed. Then after a few months, give it another reading/check.
āØāI thought you were saying youād lived in a couple of cities in the West and therefore understood all of Western culture. Which is kind of like me saying Iād lived in one or two Russian cities and therefore understood the country as a whole. Which would be impossible. Itās very diverse.ā
Oh, no, Iād never declare that. Learning another culture through real living is a lifetime project. It can never stop, particularly in our multicultural immigrant country. It feeds oneās curiosity. But now, I know a lot what sorts of stuff in the West Iād avoid getting into and whats stuff in COO Iāll keep trying to get rid of.
To be continued ā Part 2.
Lady Snow,
“Sir š¦ clings and crawls on the LwL walls”
That’s what reptiles do! š
“One of my 18 cousins on Mom side died of lung cancer a few years ago; Mom, my Uncle, and aunt donated money for his daughterās 4-year college education (I never met her).”
Oh, you have a lot of cousins. It was nice that your mom, uncle and aunt donated money.
“When my another cousin got motorcycle incident, my Granny, Dad, uncle, aunt (his own Mom) all helped pay the heavy hospital charge before he died in 4 days. If I need some help, yes, my relatives, whether knowing me well or not, would help. If this % risk happens with my surgery, Mom could go to one of my three cousins living in this country, theyāll take a good care of her until she leaves. I can count on them without asking them in advance.”
That’s great.
āØ”They are quite different. The first one is only involved some cartoon characters. ”
Yeah, but it’s still extremely clever.
“There is a central love story in it, letās see how you feel about Winstonās love with Julia under Big Brotherās noseā¦”
Maybe I should watch the movie since Richard Burton is in it. Although that’s not one of his luscious roles. He was in bad health by then.
“Youāre insightful! The issue is that gluttonous in tangible materials is achievable but gets boring soon once one acquires them.”
Yes, acquiring material things satisfies only until the next material thing is spotted and wanted. All you do is feed the beast, who is never not hungry.
“Yes, my parents lived through the big revolution: Communist overthrew the nationalist government. It was true that some proletariansā life got ābetterā but both Momās and Dadās respective families got worse, because the new government took away their lands and properties, respectively. Granny had good memories about what happened; my parents on the other hand did not talk or dislike to talk about their lived through history. They first thought the government-switching was a good thing and supported it; and later found it horrible and horrendously inhuman..”
Maybe that’s why they didn’t want to talk about themselves. I mean, maybe why your mom wouldn’t answer questions about the past.
“I didnāt pay much attention to her late life, but heard she always had lovers no matter at what age.”
She did. You can see it in her photos, even when older. She was a striking woman. I don’t mean conventionally beautiful but compelling.
“Her journals are not erotica or sexually graphic to me, but her emotions and mentality put into each amorous encounter is š ānakedā, that the reader could feel āconnectedā to her in deep, intensified waysā¦”
I agree. They’re very emotional. Very intense. The sex is part of it, but it’s all wrapped up in her experience as a whole.
“Yes, their relationship is highly intellectual, creative, and sexual. Thatās what I meant that intellectual and artistic closeness ā openness and mutual inspiration, could intensify sensual and sexual experiences and connections. ”
Yes, this I could definitely understand. I think he told her he’d never been in love with a woman’s mind.
“I donāt think limerence (so much unknowns and fantasies involved) could ever reach there! š”
Well, the ideal would be to have the limerence and the mental connection. š
“By contrast, Miller and Juneās marital dynamic was much less sparking and sometimes agonizing to watch, because the insecure June had no/little center of herself, she was āsuckingā othersā affection/attraction for her, from both men and women, so as to search and locate her inner self, of course, in vainā¼ļø”
Yes, I remember reading her discussion with Henry about June. A woman with no core who used her beauty to manipulate.
“Banal or not does not always depend on the writer, but the reader. You intend one thing, the listener heard another (could be positive or negative or both or neither). ”
That’s true.
“Sir š¦ is going to fall off the wall š¤ tonight (or in the dawn).”
We can’t be expected to watch the creepy crawlers 24/7! š
“I understand. I donāt care about receiving gifts much (but giving the way too much, small but meaningful ones) , but WORDS accompanied by ACTS of service.”
None of these means much to me. Words probably the least. As you always write, words mean little without action.
“Just googled, and Iād go for the new 7.”
Me, too.
“Youāll be amazed at how a COO person could go around and around in speaking or writing, to express āI love youā without ever saying the 3 magic words directly. Someone told me that Japan is similar in this.”
I don’t see Emotional as saying “I love you,” though I suppose it could be. To me, it’s support. I tell you I have a job interview coming up in 5 days and you remember and ask me how it went. If someone did that for me, I’d do whatever they wanted. š
“I donāt like texting, but have little choice. Nowadays, a phone call is considered urgent. Rarely anyone chats on phone any longer.”
I agree. I don’t mind texting, but texting with no phone calls if you don’t see the person often feels like talking to someone disembodied, out in the ether.
“How many of limerents here know exactly what they want from their LE, especially when they already have a āgoodā SO?”
I have asked that question repeatedly and am still waiting for an answer. But it’s sometimes to single limerents, too. WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM YOUR LO? !! š
“I never had a friend whom I know in this much of details and depth, but only a bulk of knowledge in scattered details.”
That’s all of my friendships now. Scattered. Floating in and out.
“Also, I would not have revealed all of me, especially in emotional department, there should be a personal sanctuary place within each person, which only oneās own God knows well.”
I don’t know if I revealed all of me. And it’s not like every time something happened, I felt understood. But as a general rule , I felt known and that I knew them.
“Last night, when I dreamt to answer your remaining questions, they were in English; I kind of wanted to argue with you about something with many words and sentencesā¦.”
That’s interesting. You wanted to argue? #RUDE š
“Willing to listen is a willingness to learn about; and willing to respond or ask questions is a true attempt to acquire deeper knowledge about the speaker and about oneself. Your friend stays on superficial facts, but unwilling to dig deep substantial stuff about you or herself. … In this particular topic of yours, she did not want to build an empathetic connection with you (giving sympathy is easier).”
That’s exactly what happened. She listened. No questions. Not much discussion. My family does the same thing. I can bring stuff up but they display no interest, sympathy or empathy.
” Well, thatās a normal phenomenon, we have to respect othersā choice. ”
And I did. I’m not going to push the issue. But I can’t feel close to someone I can’t talk to on a personal level.
“The kind of friendship you described above is something one may not ever find in oneās entire life, itās rare like finding a diamond. š”
That’s true. I took for granted I’d have them all my life, but I don’t know if I’ll have another one. Now you can see why the friendships I have now feel a bit anemic.
“I never had one friend I could talk with as you have wished above.”
Now can you see why I wasn’t necessarily looking to romantic relationships for this?
” With my previous insecurity and that agonizing longing, I would not easily reveal my personal affairs to anyone else, probably afraid of being judged and criticized, especially by close friends.”
But were you close with your LOs and your SOs? Did you reveal yourself to them?
” just repress the needs since the time one is still on diaper!”
The problem with that is … if you repress stuff too long, it has a tendency to bust out! Limerence!
“I believe, one of my direct cousins from my father side, had it once after her boyfriend dumped her in her 20s. She was described to have gone mad for a year or twoā wandering in the street unkempt and mumbling something no one could understand (she lived with my uncle and aunt back then). ”
It sounds like she had a really rough time.
“I donāt know/understand about this; why another side of a man needs to be pulled out and demonstrated through a tacky/shallow woman? Does he have any wisdom in his head? ”
Ha! Not emotional wisdom, no. This is all a guess on my part, but he’s a really cerebral guy. Very much focused on his business and success. So he wants a partner who brings out (I’m gagging here a little bit because I don’t find him appealing) his sexual/sensual side.
“The Longing resides inside of (or deeply relates to) 11 universal Vulnerabilities, and 48 Protectors are our personality traits (everyone has only some of them, not all) that protect our vulnerabilities. Itās a fascinating Internal Family system, if you have time, give IFS a reading to see who your internal family members are and which Self is repressed. Then after a few months, give it another reading/check.”
Ok. I have a lot of selves that are repressed. š
“It can never stop, particularly in our multicultural immigrant country.”
Exactly.
Lady Marcia,
āØāItās an interesting paradox. The people who partnered or married someone who they are compatible with but maybe werenāt limerent for in the beginning (they have a strong friendship) sometimes later miss not having had the steamy romance.ā
Thatās most of COO couples, and they donāt have much ideas of your āsteamy romanceā, which is mostly promoted by Romanticism, which is not universally recognized. So some āmatchedā couples may never miss āsteamy romanceā.
I believe that pair-bonding drive universally existing in everyone, but varies in degree or intensity, downplayed or over stimulated by cultural conditioning.
āØ[āMeanwhile, I still feel Iām romantic ā making something out of nothing (giving things meanings that others donāt see), in general matters.āāØSo youāre a romantic in everything but matters of romance?]
I ā¤ļø ā¤ļø ā¤ļø your brilliant brevity here and should carve it on my tomb stone: HERE LIES A WOMAN WHO IS A ROMANTIC IN EVERYTHING BUT MATTERS OF ROMANCE ā A LIMERENT! ā I laughed so hard thinking about it last night, itās definitely a choice for my headstone!
āØ[āMy ex-step-father-in-law, who was one of Robert Kennedyās young lawyers, āāØReally? He worked on Kennedyās campaign?]
Not sure if he worked for the campaign, but he was one of RKās lawyer, he later served a civil position in Pentagon for Carterās administration. He was an Albanian immigrant, brilliant and handsome; there is a photo on which Robert Kennedy shouts one line out (circled), āGet me that Albanian lawyer!ā
His grandmother was Jack Londonās LO at a time, and his mother was George Gershwinās LO at another time. Both women respectively rejected Londonās and Gershwinās proposal for a marriage! I met and dined with his mother, beautiful and elegant, worked as a magazineās editor. She did not wish to live under Gershwinās shadow.
āØ[āI guess you might work as an editor in some pop culture environment.āāØLol. You would be wrong. ]
Well, Iāll keep my imagination, since no one is jumping out to refute it. My belief does not hurt anyoneāļø š
āØ[āHave you seen the movie, āGroundhog Dayā? āāØI have. I like it very much.]
In the movie, we see how the same day was perceived differently and progressivelyā¦ itās very philosophically and psychologically provocative.
āØāI kind of feel like Iām going through the motions lately. That Iām here ā¦ but not here.]
Hmmā¦ āIn a bit of surreal sense? I think I felt like that at one point during my last limerence ā unable to pin down what I was feelingā¦ nothing was clear, like my mind was in between clear and a bit drunkā¦ foggy or cloudy?
āØāThese various moments just exist as memories that you kind of string together in your mind.ā
I donāt like āmomentā matters, which made the world felt highly strange, transitory, HAUNTING, subconsciously reminding me my lonely childhood, in which I did not and could not spend enough time with busy parents to build a safer, stronger emotional bond (aside from the kinship tie).
So I longed for steady, trustworthy, longer relationships/friendships. If unable to acquire any, itās fine. I donāt deal with āhalfā relation, absolutely not wanting situation-ships (tasted it before ā empty or degenerating)
āØāYou skipped over G5 and G6. Were they the smaller ones?ā
Yes, they were smaller ones, along with a bunch of ādismalā LOs – LO4.1, 4.2ā¦5.1, etc. š
āØāI guess I saw the limerent feelings as almost otherworldly. (This is all hindsight. I didnāt really understand this at the time.) They were above every day life.ā
I felt this vision briefly during LE1 and LE7 (both platonic).
āØāBut if I was looking for a boyfriend ā¦ it wasnāt just ā¦ does this guy light me up? ā¦ it was ā¦ seeing if I liked him, could talk to him, if he was making effort consistently to keep in touch, if he was showing up consistently on dates, if he was listening, if he had character, if we had things in common.ā
You see, thatās why I said youāre more experienced on dating and relationship in this culture. Naive and wishful, I didnāt ask or check on those aspects of dating and relating when I was datingā¦
āØāAnd thatās just the beginning! By the time you filter for all of that stuff (and also if the person wanted a committed relationship, which is huge) ā¦ the romantic and sexual feelings had to be compromised. Somethingās got to give. You wonāt get everything. ā
Gosh, whoās been perfectionalistsā¼ļø With these many steps, it would be a miracle should anyone find romance or get married! š Is this just in America, or everywhere in the West?
āØ[āYes, When French men compliment you, it feels sincere.āāØIām not sure how thatās different than other men, but ok. ]
You have to experience it to find out. I donāt get the French way of compliment from British, American, Russian or COOā¦ a little bit from Italians. French and Italian men appear more romanticā¦ but maybe short-lastingā¦
āØāRight? Thatās why dating is so hard.ā
Thatās why I said last year, I would not go on official ādatingāā¦.
[One can trivialize superficial ānobleā activities; or noblize seemingly ātrivialā stuff.āØāWell, thereās some truth to this. Yes.ā]
Itās hard-actualizing psychology and philosophy with a lot of truth in them.
āØāWell, Iāve actually been writing more lately. Because I have recent stuff to draw from. I donāt write about the past that much. I donāt mean that everything is within a week or two but Iām not going back 20 years, for example.ā
I went back briefly to my childhood in my previous post to youā¦ my writing would involve as far as more than 40 years ago and as near as yesterdayā¦
āØāI see what youāre saying. Me, too. Although I did have a dream about my LO the other night (not LO-lite). I was looking for him. Though I seemed to be at an airport. Which is weird. I couldnāt find him. I guess thatās a metaphor for ā¦ Iāll never see him again.ā
Everyone here lately seems to be haunted by their LO in dreams !š To me, your dreams told you that LO, or what LO represented, has left youā¦ left your Unconsciousā¦ thatās a good thing! Have you found out what that LO represented in your life during the time of that LE? (I know youāre working on roots of all your LEs with your shrink now.)
āØāIt does feel that way. And he is soooo avoiding me. Now, do I regret having the experience? If youād have asked me a couple of weeks ago, I would have said yes. Now, I donāt know.ā
Well, perhaps itās time that you ask/search š what he (LO-Lite) represented in your IFS system? Which Protector, Vulnerability or Self parts of yours were present or absent when you were with him, or when you are missing him.
āØāØ[If we donāt know how to manage our stress, e.g. LE or career stress, we are bound to get very sick soon or later. There are thyroid diseases and cancers on rise in recent years, which is mostly stress related.]
I have been hinting in the past month that Iāve got into a cancerous trouble again, but I didnāt want to talk about it until the surgery is finalized.
āØāBut also chronic conditions like diabetes can sometimes be really helped with diet, for example.ā
Yes. diabetes could have been avoided much better if diet is managed well in this country; there are too much of junk foodā¦ šØ
āØ[āBased on Sartre, thatās scary, which is our ācurseā in which we are essentially responsible for all our actions, joys and pains, happiness and miseries. āāØThereās some truth to that, too. I was just thinking that sometimes the choices are so bad, the only choice is not to choose! ]
Well, not to choose is a choice itselfāļø
āØāThatās actually a good thing. You have some hope of the glimmer-inducing situations lasting.ā
I cannot and will not change this characteristic of me ā making Glimmer last through friendship that is built on the foundation of sharp intellect, artistic creativity, and rich emotions, like Miller with Nin.
āØāDonāt get me started on the apps. They are awful!ā
I told you that I swore never to get on it again, no matter whatā¼ļø
To be continued ā Part 3.
Lady Snow,
“Thatās most of COO couples, and they donāt have much ideas of your āsteamy romanceā, which is mostly promoted by Romanticism, which is not universally recognized. So some āmatchedā couples may never miss āsteamy romanceā.”
So is it more an arranged marriage or marriage based on compatibility (shared values, goals, etc.)?
“I believe that pair-bonding drive universally existing in everyone, but varies in degree or intensity, downplayed or over stimulated by cultural conditioning.”
I would agree with that, and some people don’t seem to have much of a need for romance.
“I ā¤ļø ā¤ļø ā¤ļø your brilliant brevity here and should carve it on my tomb stone: HERE LIES A WOMAN WHO IS A ROMANTIC IN EVERYTHING BUT MATTERS OF ROMANCE ā A LIMERENT! ā I laughed so hard thinking about it last night, itās definitely a choice for my headstone!”
I love it! I wasn’t trying to be funny, but I’m glad you laughed. I mean, you could be romantic in your artistic taste, your views about a job, etc. It’s not always romantic about romance.
“Not sure if he worked for the campaign, but he was one of RKās lawyer, he later served a civil position in Pentagon for Carterās administration. He was an Albanian immigrant, brilliant and handsome; there is a photo on which Robert Kennedy shouts one line out (circled), āGet me that Albanian lawyer!ā”
Now that’s a story. š
“His grandmother was Jack Londonās LO at a time, and his mother was George Gershwinās LO at another time. Both women respectively rejected Londonās and Gershwinās proposal for a marriage! I met and dined with his mother, beautiful and elegant, worked as a magazineās editor. She did not wish to live under Gershwinās shadow.”
Wow. This guy has had some interesting relatives! And an interesting life.
“In the movie, we see how the same day was perceived differently and progressivelyā¦ itās very philosophically and psychologically provocative.”
I also like how he slowly realizes he’s been a selfish ass and he changes.
“Hmmā¦ āIn a bit of surreal sense?”
No. More like … I’m here, I’m still breathing. But that’s about it.
“I donāt like āmomentā matters, which made the world felt highly strange, transitory, HAUNTING, subconsciously reminding me my lonely childhood, in which I did not and could not spend enough time with busy parents to build a safer, stronger emotional bond (aside from the kinship tie).”
Well, the moments are the highlights. They’re the highpoints of life.
“So I longed for steady, trustworthy, longer relationships/friendships. ”
Well, that’s the issue. Sometimes you can have “moments” with someone who will be steady in your life. A “moment” might be that you go on a great vacation with them. But then there are times when you just have a moment with someone and it has no connection to anything else. Like LO-lite. I’m still undecided if having the moment was worth the fallout.
“Yes, they were smaller ones, along with a bunch of ādismalā LOs ā LO4.1, 4.2ā¦5.1, etc. š”
What made them dismal?
“You see, thatās why I said youāre more experienced on dating and relationship in this culture. Naive and wishful, I didnāt ask or check on those aspects of dating and relating when I was datingā¦”
I never used to!
“Gosh, whoās been perfectionalistsā¼ļø With these many steps, it would be a miracle should anyone find romance or get married! ”
Well, that’s my whole point. How do you find someone who has all of that and someone you’re also attracted to?
“š Is this just in America, or everywhere in the West?”
Idk. But what would you look for if you were looking for a long-term partner? You said you were looking for a solid friendship. Wouldn’t the person have qualities you’d be looking for?
“You have to experience it to find out. I donāt get the French way of compliment from British, American, Russian or COOā¦ a little bit from Italians. French and Italian men appear more romanticā¦ but maybe short-lastingā¦”
French men are “professionals.” š
“Everyone here lately seems to be haunted by their LO in dreams !š To me, your dreams told you that LO, or what LO represented, has left youā¦ left your Unconsciousā¦ thatās a good thing! Have you found out what that LO represented in your life during the time of that LE? ”
What LOs always represent for me. Excitement, escape, sexiness. š And I was dissatisfied with where I was in life. So he was a distraction.
“(I know youāre working on roots of all your LEs with your shrink now.)”
We talk about that but we talk about other stuff, too. There’s so much to fix and we only have an hour! š
“Well, perhaps itās time that you ask/search š what he (LO-Lite) represented in your IFS system? Which Protector, Vulnerability or Self parts of yours were present or absent when you were with him, or when you are missing him.”
Ok. I looked at your list. Probably connection. He’s an affectionate person (non-sexually). Which messed with my head.
“I have been hinting in the past month that Iāve got into a cancerous trouble again, but I didnāt want to talk about it until the surgery is finalized.”
I’m glad you brought it up and I hope that talking about it on here has helped you.
“Yes. diabetes could have been avoided much better if diet is managed well in this country; there are too much of junk foodā¦ šØ”
Yes. And food companies put chemicals in the food to make it taste better and get us addicted. It’s horrible.
“Well, not to choose is a choice itselfāļø”
True.
“I cannot and will not change this characteristic of me ā making Glimmer last through friendship that is built on the foundation of sharp intellect, artistic creativity, and rich emotions, like Miller with Nin.”
Well, I wouldn’t idealize their relationship too much. They were having an affair, so the time they spent together was short, intense and heightened. Just focused on their sexual and mental connection. She didn’t have to deal with him every day, day in and day out, like she did her husband. Their relationship was a series of moments. Hard to say if they had tried to be together full-time if it would have worked out.
Do mid life wives have that less confidence? I look at my wife half covered up while she watches something on her laptop and her thighs are uncovered and half drunk me is like āmmmm I like itā. I just totally want to sink my teeth in like some KFC.
Original flavor or extra crispy?
I have a feeling he’s an original recipe kind of guy..
My brother knows me well.
Amen to that..
Original recipe has more flavor.. š
Extra crispy is harder to bite into, harder to chew and harder to swallow. Original recipe is soft and chewy and easy on the stomach. Iāll take original recipe women over extra crispy women any day of the week.
And yes, I am prepared for Dame Marcia to call me a coward. š
Momma was like āwhat?ā And I gave her a class A hickey. And sheās like āIām all sweaty!ā And Iām like āthatās what it makes it the best.ā Now off to church to confess my sins. Dunno why Adam didnāt prefer Lilith over Eve smh. Mmmm Bebe Neuwirth. *Homer* aggghhhhh
Probably depends on her personality and how well sheās dealing with aging. I still get flirted with, so that inspires confidence. There are also those women who love to āflauntā their assets no matter what they look like. š Then the ones who are very insecure about no longer looking like 20-year-olds. Thereās that line from Siouxsie and the BansheesāāEven the greatest stars hate themselves in the looking glassā
I prefer Popeyes fried chicken.
I do too. But I donāt know how universal the name Popeyeās is globally over KFC.
One of our anniversaries when we first started out our finances were really tight so to celebrate we got some Popeyeās to take home and have dinner. Iāll never forget how good it was despite not being able to afford to do more for my wife on our anniversary.
āļø,
“You canāt expect or make anyone else to dance your ever-changing, creative, beautiful dancing steps or moves. From a Stoic point of view, itās futile!”
If this is right (and don’t get me wrong, a large part of me believes it is right), how do you think the most successful LTRs stay together? Because ultimately, don’t the couple either grow together or grow apart, in the end?
I guess what you’re advocating about marriages or LTRs is that both people don’t lose – or try to make the other person lose – their sense of uniqueness and identity as an individual. So many relationships fail in this way.
Like – have an identity as each of you, but also one as the two of you? If you’re šØ and I’m š¦, we should have some š©, but also a strong lasting sense of šØ and š¦ intact, which may change hues but none of the three colours are ever eradicated?
I get your Stoic angle that we can only rely on ourselves in the end. But with SO partnerships there is a natural intertwining and mutuality beteeen the two partners. Without that what would be the incentive for the two to stick together?
It is obvious by my story and my very presence on this site that this isn’t an area I find smooth sailing to balance well … But I look at my parents for example and I do see two people who seem to have got it about right – still seem very much in love after more than 50 years married. A lot of mutual dependence but it doesn’t seem to phase them.
I once found a religious marriage advice book scanned onto the Internet, that said married couples should do EVERYTHING together, including hobbies and friendships, and I thought, OMG how smothering! Youād get so sick of each other! If I had to take on all my SOās hobbies and friends, Iād go mad. Iād rather have my own, and overlap now and then.
I think I may be repeating my parentsā relationship in some ways, because they had issues and my mom thought of leaving when I was around college-age. They stuck it out, though, until one of them died a number of years ago.
Sir š© š± š½ š,
[You canāt expect or make anyone else to dance your ever-changing, creative, beautiful dancing steps or moves. From a Stoic point of view, itās futile!ā]
[If this is right (and donāt get me wrong, a large part of me believes it is right), how do you think the most successful LTRs stay together? Because ultimately, donāt the couple either grow together or grow apart, in the end?]
Iām going to use dance and dance partners as an analogy here for a
beautiful, harmonious dance.
LTRs stay together is because first of all they dance the same type of dance: tango & tango; Cha-Cha & Cha-Cha. Can you couple a waltz dancer with a rock-n-roll one?
Secondly, when tango & tango, does each dancer have the exact steps under one piece of music? One canāt expect the partner who always matches his/her creative, improvising steps, but they can practice and practice, so the both sides could coordinate, improvise, and keep beautifying their dancing steps; under one piece music after another or renovate with the same piece of music. Thatās would be a growing, maturing dancing/romancing relationship.
If one partner continues ballet dancing, the other side at some point wants to change to modern dance, then they will inevitably split. If a better LO dancer appears, then the original coupleās duel dance would be disturbed or messed up, because the Limerent focus would scattered or distracted for short or long.
āI guess what youāre advocating about marriages or LTRs is that both people donāt lose ā or try to make the other person lose ā their sense of uniqueness and identity as an individual. So many relationships fail in this way.ā
Yes, thatās my point. ā
āLike ā have an identity as each of you, but also one as the two of you? If youāre šØ and Iām š¦, we should have some š©, but also a strong lasting sense of šØ and š¦ intact, which may change hues but none of the three colours are ever eradicated?ā
Again, you got it! ā
āI get your Stoic angle that we can only rely on ourselves in the end. ā
Stoic angle is an ATTITUDE, not an action. Itās EXPECT least or the worst outcome while putting oneās best effort to achieve a goal or goals, be it a duel dance, a romance, or LTR partnership. No Stoicism says that one has to do anything alone or rely on just ourselves. You need a specific help, you can ask, but do NOT expect you can always get your needed help from an intended person, e.g. oneās LO.
āBut with SO partnerships there is a natural intertwining and mutuality between the two partners. Without that what would be the incentive for the two to stick together?ā
Are you saying that having a Stoic principle/mindset would prevent having intertwining and mutuality between two partners? Where did you get that concept? Not at all! You misunderstood what Stoicism is about ā knowing what is within or without oneās control and expect least. But I do hear that a Stoic mindset (Jane Austen has some Stoic mind in Elinor of āSense and Sensibility) usually matches better with another similar mindset, not those very insecure, dependent or whiny spiritā¦ Again, Stoic is not stoic!
āIt is obvious by my story and my very presence on this site that this isnāt an area I find smooth sailing to balance well ā¦ā
You need to dig deeper to find out whatās possible root(s) of your LE onset, and if it has anything to do with presence/absence of Stoicism ā applicable in all walks of lifeā¦
āBut I look at my parents for example and I do see two people who seem to have got it about right ā still seem very much in love after more than 50 years married. A lot of mutual dependence but it doesnāt seem to phase them.ā
I bet they had their ups and downs, and incoherent dancing steps sometimes; but they practiced, worked together, and strengthened their marital bond. Marcia would call it, āinter-dependenceā, and I call it, āa harmonious, loving duel tangoā with their familiar or evolved dancing steps accumulated over 50 years of their marriage.
Not sure if Iāve made some sense. š§ (I just came back from such a speculative fireworks and saw 1 billion people from the world over on the street!)
āļø,
Sounds like the š show was spectacular. All that, then š„© cooked for you when you got home. Oh what a night šµ.
Thanks for the reply.
“Are you saying that having a Stoic principle/mindset would prevent having intertwining and mutuality between two partners? Where did you get that concept? Not at all!”
A quick caveat before my main answer – with certain couples, too much Stoic mindset *in one person much more than the other* could indeed be a problem for the relationship. But then those people maybe shouldn’t be a couple anyway. In that event the more Stoic one will get leant on too much, unfairly, and not in a way that benefits the relarionship.
But my main answer is no, i wasn’t quite trying to say that Stoicism would prevent intertwining. I think I explained it better with the colours part. My main query was with the principle you often repeat “only rely on yourSELF, don’t lean on anyone”, more than with Stoicism in general.
What I was suggesting is that a certain amount of leaning is probably inevitable in an LTR. I can probably resolve this for myself without needing you to answer … but I guess that works best if the leaning happens at a similar level (both people do same amount) AND are capable of / want to pull away when that leaning gets too nuch.
I’m not saying this coming example equals a good thing (almost definitely not by modern standards) but to look at my parents’ marriage again, he can’t cook, she doesn’t know a thing about their finances. I don’t think it’s ideal because one of them will one day be alone and have to really lean on someone else (us as their children, or professionals) for those things they can’t do. But that’s how their ‘leaning’ works – they made a coaltion that between it can do everything – but they can’t do everything individually.
I’m intrigued, are long term couples in COO similar to this, with specialisms / expected roles?
I think ‘our’ generation and later ones have got much better at all this. SO and I do a similar amount of both the cooking and finance, for example. And then there are bits where we ‘specialise’, but those are the less vital (to everyday living) bits that we simply enjoy or care about more.
My reply to your post was rejected three timesā¦ not sure why?
DrL:
Iāve been trying to post my not-lengthy response to LaRās post here, with no link of any kind, but the system rejected it 4 times, not sure why.
But my two line post had not trouble to be postedā¦
LaR š š½,
āSounds like the š show was spectacular.
š show was indeed spectacular, although we did not find a perfect spot with so many people. I expected worse (Stoic), and was/am quite content with a āpartial skyā view of fireworks (there were buildings on both sides of our standing spot.
āAll that, then š„© cooked for you when you got home. Oh what a night šµ.ā
Nope. MJ Sirš¦ kindly cocked š„© and put š¶, but I could not go to his house to enjoy them, because Lady Marcia was working, and I did not want to be alone with her dude. š
āA quick caveat before my main answer ā with certain couples, too much Stoic mindset *in one person much more than the other* could indeed be a problem for the relationship. ā
There is no such a thing as ātoo much Stoic mindsetā, there is only shortage of it, except if youāre Epictetus or Marcus Aurelius. In a couple, one with more Stoic mindset stays calm more, the less one gets agitated more. So their mental dancing steps could be often disturbed due to their mental differences.
āBut then those people maybe shouldnāt be a couple anyway. ā
Not necessarily. One can learn to be more Stoic ā building stronger mental and emotional shield for oneself and the relationship.
āIn that event the more Stoic one will get leant on too much, unfairly, and not in a way that benefits the relationship.ā
āGet leant onā or ālean onā has little to do with Stoic mindset, you pretty much understood it incorrectly. I apologize for unclearly babbling on the concept of Stoicism. From your post, I just realized that Iām a poor TA (teacherās assistant) on Stoicism.
āMy main query was with the principle you often repeat āonly rely on yourSELF, donāt lean on anyoneā, more than with Stoicism in general.ā
Did I ever define āonly rely on yourSELF, donāt lean on anyoneā as Stoicism? In what ways if I did? š¤.
I think I used that line to define emotional/mental EXPECTATIONS ā LEAN ON people, situations, and outcomes, which are all OUT OF our control. But such āleaning onā is not specific, realistic need/shortcoming/deficiency. I canāt drive long despite I have a driverās license. I have to rely on someone to go to a rural, friendās house where is far away from any bus stop. But you canāt claim that Iām less Stoic just because I canāt drive long due to a physical condition.
āWhat I was suggesting is that a certain amount of leaning is probably inevitable in an LTR. ā
Absolutely normal and expected in any cultures. Youāre talking about physical or realistic āleaningā.
āI guess that works best if the leaning happens at a similar level (both people do same amount) AND are capable of / want to pull away when that leaning gets too much.ā
It doesnāt matter whether physical learning happens at a similar or different level. I canāt drive (a little bit), my xSO partner couldnāt cook (a little bit). So we leaned on each other on these two areas and did not emotionally /mentally pull away due to these two dependencies. Each side knew what to expect or not to expect in terms cooking or driving ā being Stoic. So no agitation was aroused, but calmness remained whenever cooking or driving was required.
ābut to look at my parentsā marriage again, he canāt cook, she doesnāt know a thing about their finances. ā
Just give you my thought on this in āļø paragraph.
āI donāt think itās ideal because one of them will one day be alone and have to really lean on someone else (us as their children, or professionals) for those things they canāt do. ā
Their dependency has nothing to do with being Stoic or not. If you, as children, know and expect what youāll need to do to help them one day, you would NOT get upset when you do it. The remaining parent would not get upset ā being Stoic, because she or he canāt do certain things alone. I canāt drive and have to rely on public transportation all the time, so I did not ever try to buy a house in suburb or countryside. I accept such a lot with eternal serenity ā Stoic.
āBut thatās how their āleaningā works ā they made a coalition that between it can do everything ā but they canāt do everything individually.ā
Thatās perfectly normal in all couples, in all cultures. Nothing to do with being Stoic or not.
To continue fro the last post ā
āIām intrigued, are long term couples in COO similar to this, with specialisms / expected roles?ā
Practically in every couple.
You havenāt seen my Momās dependence on Dad, cooking, financing, using smart phones (forget about computers), making plans for all logistic stuffā¦ But it did not upset him most of the time, rarely he complained to me about her heavy dependence, and she about his ācursingā and a bit male chauvinistic attitude towards her.
He deeply worried about her life if he should leave the world first. Then the worst happened, and he asked me (only with the eye blinking movement) in his deathbed to take care of her physically. He knew very well that she and I did not and could not get along, so I had to give him a promise! Now, Iām stuck with her without other choice (I canāt financially afford professional care regularly should she need later). Does getting upset about this situation help me in any way? No, no, no! So I LEAN ON my Stoicism to keep my mental eace while dealing with her.
When she arrived here first in 2018, her total dependence drove me up to the roof (did not know about Stoic back then), which sharply worsened my otherwise LE. A year later in May of 2019, I swore to learn something to protect my mind and heart from being hurt or agitated or panic attacked so much by Momās narc behavior and worsened LEā¦. 6 years later, Iām here babbling my practicing and limited understanding of Stoicism.
You somehow entirely missed the point of Stoicism as an ATTITUDE ā mental/emotional shield, when other people, situations, the world at large do NOT run based on your expectations and wishes. How your mind/emotion are going to react to those UNEXPECTED, UNWANTEDā
āI think āourā generation and later ones have got much better at all this. SO and I do a similar amount of both the cooking and finance, for example. ā
Even so, you can be (donāt mean either of you are) still very un-Stoic, with a weak emotional/mental shield ā perhaps a part of your LE root, I suspect š§
āAnd then there are bits where we āspecialiseā, but those are the less vital (to everyday living) bits that we simply enjoy or care about more.ā
They have little to do with being Stoic or not.
Do you understand a bit more what Iām trying to convey hereāļø (being Stoic, I have to EXPECT you still do NOT š; otherwise, Iād be upsetā¦)
Iāll have a chat with Marcia later, exploring and discussing being Stoic in dating situation.
Typo: ā which sharply worsened my otherwise ānon-agitatedā LE.
āļø,
Thanks for the extra explanations.
Yes, maybe I did confuse and wrongly conflate two things you said at different times.
Mainly you have defined Stoic as 1. Expect the worst, work hard for the best, and 2. Accept that you can’t control others actions, only your reaction to them.
You have talked a fair bit about not leaning too (don’t use another person as a cane or crutch for your issues) – but you were probably talking outside of the concept of Stoicism in those bits. That’s where I may have conflated wrongly.
And I’m sorry to hear you didn’t get your š„©
š© š š½,
āMainly you have defined Stoic as 1. Expect the worst, work hard for the best, and 2. Accept that you canāt control others actions, only your reaction to them.ā
Theyāre both mainly on mental and emotional domain/level, not necessarily physical. It can be applied in dating app men/women.
āYou have talked a fair bit about not leaning too (donāt use another person as a cane or crutch for your issues) ā but you were probably talking outside of the concept of Stoicism in those bits. Thatās where I may have conflated wrongly.ā
Also primarily at a mental and emotional level ā another person an emotional/mental cane ā SO or LO, or both. Do you remember the walks we had about SO seeking your validation, and you hersā¦ and then LFF gave you what SO or your family could not??
āAnd Iām sorry to hear you didnāt get your š„©ā
Thatās alright! I feel good/proud that I didnāt betray Her Ladyshipās friendship behind her backā¦
LO texted me yesterday. He wanted to give me something that he’s getting rid of, and he knew I wanted it. So I went over there and we spent a few minutes talking.
Mostly we talked about him listing his house for sale. His new house closes escrow in ten weeks, so it’s about time he listed this one. As I have said, his current house is very unusual and could take many months to sell. Maybe a year, even.
He never once asked me anything about myself or how I am doing.
He said he’d invite me over for brunch with his mom this weekend, and I found myself sort of wishing that he wouldn’t.
So there is some progress in there, I think.
Hello Norma,
I hope you’re not too shaken by yesterday’s meetup. I tend to find it easier to maintain a level head with arranged meetings than chance encounters. It does sound as though you’re becoming less impressed with him and noticing his shortcomings more, which is great.
To Monochrome:
Yes! You put your finger on an important point. An arranged meeting that I was at least partially prepared for. The worst is when we bump into each other in public, and he sees me first and startles me. OMG.
I am becoming less impressed, you’re right. Even though his house is impressive, there is a sense of excess that I do not understand. I keep thinking, who NEEDS all that stuff?? There is a heaviness about it.
He now tells me that he wants to transport his koi fish to the new place. Three thousand miles. That sounds fun. Not.
Hi all, I am completely overwhelmed with gratitude at the moment that this website, blog and all of you participants exist. Iāve been silently suffering from an āunknown ailmentā for one year and unable to share it with anyone because of my life situation, ie, marriage and kids. I was today years old when I learned about limerance and whatās actually going on inside me. Here is my story:
Iāve been married for 24 years and have had an amazing life with my partner and kids. I love him, he adores me, gives me a lot of attention and has always put my needs first. I still find him very attractive. We have great sex. All boxes āļø. Another man did not turned my head in all those years! Possibly a contributing factor: a couple years ago, we had some lifestyle changes that were hard on me. Iām a passionate person who lives life on my own terms, but circumstances forced us to compromise our lifestyle values for the time being. Thatās all Iām going to say about that for the sake of anonymity. Anyway, I became slightly depressed and obsessive about my hobbies. I was flighty and adhd – never wanting to be home, unable to calm down and relax etc. Last year, I had an opportunity to work on a project with a couple people, the LO being one of them. I noticed him right away, but he was 30 years old and I was 46, so I just thought, cute young guy and that was it. The project progressed and I realized I enjoyed talking with him and we had some things in common. It wasnāt until about three months in that we had to spend a couple work days in the field alone. A few things created the perfect storm for limerance to develop: 1) I was depressed about the recent life changes and this manās interests represented everything I was missing about my old life; 2) we were alone without any other contact, so it felt like āanother worldā where the impossible becomes possible – the age difference didnāt matter – we were just two people connecting if that makes sense; 3) something really exciting happened (again I canāt say for anonymity sake) related to the project while we were together. The event made it so we would meet several more times over the next few weeks. By the end of those meetings, I was done for. He left on a 2 month trip and I literally went crazy. I stopped eating, obsessed about my appearance and did everything possible to look my best by the time he returned. I thought about him constantly! It was as if I was possessed. Iām a pretty motivated person and I already had good looks, just somewhat neglected over the previous few years, so I had a āglow upā if you will. When we met again, he noticed and gave me more attention, which was validating. However, the project ended and we said goodbye until the following season. I felt that I didnāt have enough time to develop the relationship I wanted with him. I tried to maintain contact, but texts fizzled out, which sent me into despair. By this point, I had a long list of routines and rituals related to my appearance and trying to look younger. I became completely tied up with this goal. I never cared about aging before and it was the wrong time in life to start! My self esteem plummeted. I didnāt even know for certain that weād get to work together again, but I began scheming ways to make it happen. He lives several hours away and there was no other way to see him besides the work engagements. Then, suddenly I heard from my employer and our team was back together for the summer. Since then, a lot has occurred. Weāve been overnight on a couple assignments and stayed up talking late. Weāve become friends. Heās in a vulnerable place due to a recent breakup, which has not helped the situation. Weāve flirted a little, but nothing obvious. Suddenly I feel like itās a freight train headed towards the infidelity station and Iām in shock. How can I be planning this? How can I be willing to lie and cheat and destroy everything I care about for this man? I have no intention of leaving my husband. I guess I just want the validation? I want proof that he has feelings for me, too; that we have chemistry; that Iām not crazy?? On the other hand, I canāt imagine heās the type who would even consider crossing the line with a married woman. I think Iām creating my own fantasy and pulling him into the plot. Up until now, I thought it was love, but am reconsidering after reading about limerance. Looking back into my past, I can remember having these tendencies with early relationships. Iām amazed that those tendencies stayed under the surface for so many years and suddenly reappeared. I remember feeling it like a force slamming into my body – it was so sudden and intense! I knew there was no escaping it and I was scared, but also excited. There is something vaguely familiar about the laser focus, the futility, the highs and lows, the aching and longing. I have to admit, I still am not ready to take the steps to completely eliminate it; I more want to understand it and observe it from a different, hopefully safer place.
Thank you for reading.
Hello Sala,
Welcome! Your age and situation sounds similar to mine. Suddenly discovering that there is a name for this thing we’ve been going through, that we haven’t been able to talk about with anyone. Mine has been going on longer, since the Covid era which turned my life and career upside down but didn’t affect my husband’s career, and I resented the inequality.
I discovered limerence a couple of months ago with an article in The Independent on the publication of Smitten.
Firstly, I recommend you read this blog post:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/questions-to-ask-if-you-are-married-but-limerent-for-someone-else/
Then read “Smitten” – I devoured it in a few days, but completely in secret. Honestly it’s just so sensible and clear-sighted about our problem. Such a relief to find clarity!
I also recommend reading the “Anxiety to Action” quickstart guide to help understand what it might feel like from your husband’s point of view, should he find out (or you tell him) about your limerence. Sobering reading, but very helpful to us.
Also, did you ever tell your husband?
There’s a blog for that, too.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/should-you-disclose-to-your-significant-other/
Hi Sala, and welcome,
“Up until now, I thought it was love, but am reconsidering after reading about limerance”
Not everyone here would agree with me, but I think at the beginning love and limerence aren’t that different. If I look back and compare LEs to relationships I’ve had that became love, the only big difference is that the LEs had barriers. And it is the presence of these barriers that later take it down the fork of limerence, not love. Where it developed into love, it did not become (frustrated) limerence.
You sound like you’re at a vulnerable stage right now where it may need some real grit and ‘mind over matter’ on your part to hold this at bay. I wish you luck and I know firsthand just how difficult it is to have to do that. This community will be here when you need to reach out and vent to us. In the height of my LE, I would reach out and write here as an act to stop myself doing something daft (anything from texting LO to disclosure).
I’m sure I’m late to the party with this song. Here’s one for the married limerents.
https://youtu.be/Is73BbYhFz4?si=uLDHEgWfEM7dxqCJ
Thank you for the warm welcome, Monochrome! I read the āquestions to ask if youāre marriedā and plan to purchase the book – I just need to be careful of where to keep it š¬. Ugh, the thing Iām struggling with is that a big part of me does NOT want to let go of this. Even though my rational brain knows itās bad for me and all involved. But I can foresee that the clarity Iām bringing to the situation thanks to this site and hopefully the book, will be a huge help. Do you still have the same LO and still work with that person? Are feelings reciprocated? My LO is currently on another work trip and Iām so grateful because things were hitting a fever pitch for me right before he left. I literally felt like my body was going to catch on fire when we last hugged and I even told him I was going to miss him. Iām starting to cross lines. Itās crazy to me that I was never the unfaithful type, so why now?? How could some young guy have so much power over me? Itās certainly unexpected.
Where to keep the book? E-reader! You will find a way. It’s important.
Yes I have the same LO. We don’t exactly work together although there is a work-related connection, plus his family and mine are all friends with each other they live nearby and have plenty of different reasons to be in regular contact. It would be very hard to break off contact without arousing suspicion and impossible not to see him inadvertently.
There is one significant way in which I have prevented further close contact by telling him a white lie, and I have disclosed to my husband that I have done this to avoid spending repeated one-on-one time with a man I find attractive, but I have not disclosed the extent of my crush or explained anything about limerence.
I well recognise the desire not to want to end limerence as I have felt like this many times, because of the feeling that the emotions (both the highs and the lows) make one feel more alive. But I am further down the road now and I value the calmness and freedom that comes with beating these feelings and redirecting my romantic energy back to my wonderful husband and redirecting my energy and purpose back to my work.
(I have been typing this using predictive typing on my phone which doesn’t know the word limerence and keeps putting lingerie instead).
In answer to your other question, I have to assume that the feelings are not reciprocated other than friendship, but I will never know and do not need to know.
One of the big parts of the brain training I’ve been doing is to rid myself of the fantasies I was having about reciprocation, by noticing the thoughts as they happen and reminding myself that it is just a trick of the brain which was perpetuating the limerence.
Understanding the roles of dopamine and oxytocin, as explained by Dr L, helps to understand what is happening in my brain and helps me to view it dispassionately. One useful thing he says is that the problem is in one’s brain, and that is where we need to solve the problem.
Writing this is a nice reminder of how far I’ve come in the last few weeks! I’m by no means out of the woods but things are much better than they were and I’m happier for it.
Thank you for taking the time to share. Itās crazy how exhausted Iāve been since I discovered limerence yesterday. Itās like my mind has taken all the details of the experience, all the emotions, thoughts, behaviors and dumped them over this new filter to be processed. The āold meā is panicking because Iām suddenly becoming conscious of what Iāve been doing to myself. Iām shining a light in the dark corners, so to speak. For example, I went to workout yesterday evening and realized that all I do while working out is listen to songs that make me think and fantasize about him and I obsess over him during my entire workout – so I donāt even know how to do that activity without those thoughts. I especially need a new music playlist.
I also canāt go NC because I am not willing to give up this project. We have had an overnight alone that really accelerated the limerance and I realized afterwards that if it were to happen again, I would not have the self control. So, I will at a minimum make sure that doesnāt happen where we are on a trip alone. Itās been a big problem that our work environment is extremely romantic and doesnāt impose any rules or natural boundaries if that makes sense. We are completely isolated.
Iām also seeing a lot that contributed to the development of limerence that I was ignoring before. My kids not needing me like they did when they were young, me feeling lonely b/c of the new living situation and resenting my husband for putting his head down to just work and get through it all. I felt abandoned and was looking. For escape. This man epitomizes all that I love and he is so talented. I thought I was protecting myself by telling him how in love my husband and I are with each other, but that seemed to make him feel safe forming a close friendship with me and sharing intimate details of his life. I can tell he likes spending time with me and probably thinks Iām an attractive older woman, but I may be delusional to think a 30 year old could really desire a woman that much older. Yet, when we hug it feels electric to me and I canāt imagine he isnāt feeling that. Itās part of the limerence thing, I realize that now. The barriers and uncertainty are whatās feeding the addiction.
Regarding my husband, I told him about us being friends and that I āreally care about him.ā He knows we stayed up late talking. He met LO once and saw that we have a connection, but my husband has never had any reason to worry. He trusts me and heās a very confident man. When he asked about the details of our time together, it was as if he found it entertaining and he said, āthereās no way that guy is not falling in love with you. Poor guy.ā But he doesnāt see feelings on my behalf other than maybe an innocent crush. Maybe itās the age difference or he doesnāt think LO is my type. For some reason, I donāt feel guilty about any of this even when I try! For example, when we worked alone together and stayed the night, I manipulated that situation to make it work out that way. I told my husband there would be another person on the trip, but then told him at the last minute there was a change of plans and that person wouldnāt be there. The other person was never coming. So Im being honest in an untruthful way if that makes sense? Because Iām a terrible liar and I donāt like the idea of lying to my husband. I can only imagine what a disaster it would be if I did something physical with LO.
Iāve got a month before he returns from his trip and probably nothing planned until late August as far as seeing him. Usually we arenāt working alone, so Iāll hope for that. Also, if heās had time to process any of this from his side, maybe heāll realize how foolish it is and change his behavior towards me. I have a level of pride and I most definitely would NOT continue to instigate connection if he didnāt reciprocate. Or maybe he will be involved with a new partner and that would certainly help!
Iām glad you are making progress. It gives me hope that I can work through this with my rational brain. I just have to put in the time and effort.
Hi Sala,
I recognise much of what you have shared with your story.
Monochrome’s comments are very valuable and also admirable.
To share something that I firmly believe in, that may also be a factor is our female hormones are in a state of change in late 40s, and biology is driving us to procreate with a compatible man before that possibilty to do so stops.
It seems quite a theme that some women get hit with limerence at this time that catches us completely off guard. I think this is especially true, if this is your first (or maybe 2nd LE) and you haven’t had serial limerence episodes before.
It’s a crazy desire that is triggered by a man who has compatible DNA with yours , often communicated via pheromones. We subconsciously connect in a pure biochemical way.
Your LO is probably pumping out pheremones more than your SO, based on his age.
Of course its more complex than that, due to intellectual conversations and personality connectivity etc, but I think the hormones play a role to move our brain from viewing them as a special new friend to becoming an LO with the obsessions and ruminations.
I also found this blog useful (from the archives) if you feel like you are crossing lines. The links to other blogs within it are also worth a read.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/playing-with-fire/
Sala,
Well done for coming this far. It’s great that you have a month to digest everything and reframe your thoughts before the next onslaught of contact.
The playlist is a classic way our brain tricks us into perpetuating limerence. Our brain likes to make connections by finding things that remind us of LO then planting them in our daily routine in order to get regular kicks of brain chemicals. It’s crafty like that. Luckily, with the playlist, you’ve already noticed that and worked out a way to remove that reminder.
At first I was a bit panicked by not being able to reduce contact much, but having realised how much of the problem is my brain creating reminders, I realised how much I could do myself in my head without changing external circumstances over which I have less control.
The other day I was with my husband and he was being a bit annoying and I was feeling sad. When I brought it up with him, it was clear he was oblivious to having said or done anything to upset me. Then I thought harder and realised that I ought to understand his mannerisms a bit more and that I was allowing myself to get upset. Then I realised that this is a bit difference between love in a long-term relationship, and the fantasy of limerence. With a fantasy your LO can behave exactly how you want them to, all the time. Impossible in real life!
Oh my gosh, that last part – so true! I also feel sad every time my husband is not perfectly sweet and attentive. I remember specifically how LO would be so kind and gentle (he does have a very different personality from my husband) and I would secretly blame my husband for not being as nice to me. Like that gave me an excuse to pine over LO.
Iāve been thinking this morning about past limerence. I did not experience it with my husband and I realized that he probably was more infatuated with me in the beginning and I basically stayed because he was so enamored. It did become love and we are so good together. But, if Iām honest, LO has the personality that always gave me the glimmer in my teens and early twenties. Intelligent, disheveled, kind but slightly aloof or distant. I can now say I had limerence for a few different men during those years before my husband. I had sex with 2 of them and kind of friends with benefits relationships. It was a different kind of attraction where I desperately wanted something from them, wanted them to want me, always felt despair and uncertainty. My conventional good looks that worked well with other men didnāt seem to have any pull with LOs. I was always looking for validation. My husband has never been reserved about his feelings and he compliments me all the time. Heās never moody or aloof like my typical LO personality. I think that plays a big part for me. And now that Iām older and got hit over the head with this new situation, my mind went straight for the usual tools to attract a man and found the toolbox empty at 46, haha – I panicked! Omg, maybe I canāt attract this man. No, impossible!! š¤£ Then my type A personality made a list of everything I could do to be āhotā again, and short of plastic surgery Iāve tried it all over the last year. I even tried Botox which I would have never done. It looked terrible, so I wonāt be doing that again. Oh wow, this makes me laugh at myself.
We are the same age. I wonder whether hormones of perimenopause also play a part? Hard to disentangle from the stage of family life we often find ourselves in at around this age.
Iād Have You Think of Me
Djuna Barnes
As one who, leaning on the wall, once drew
Thick blossoms down, and hearkened to the hum
Of heavy bees slow rounding the wet plum,
And heard across the fields the patient coo
Of restless birds bewildered with the dew.
As one whose thoughts were mad in painful May,
With melancholy eyes turned toward her love,
And toward the troubled earth whereunder throve
The chilly rye and coming hawthorn sprayā
With one lean, pacing hound, for company
Interlude
Edith Sitwell
1887 ā 1964
Amid this hot green glowing gloom
A word falls with a raindropās boom …
Like baskets of ripe fruit in air
The bird-songs seem, suspended where
Those goldfinchesāthe ripe warm lights
Peck slyly at themātake quick flights.
My feet are feathered like a bird
Among the shadows scarcely heard;
I bring you branches green with dew
And fruits that you may crown anew
Your whirring waspish-gilded hair
Amid this cornucopiaā
Until your warm lips bear the stains
And bird-blood leap within your veins
******
When your warm lips bear the stains
š¦āš„-blood spring within your veinsā¦
If I hadnāt had a vasectomy Iām in the mood to make another one. Thank God I have. Cause God knows no one needs another of my seed of mine. But dammit ā¦. Momma is a good mother. And Id better just go to bed and leave her alone.
Not if she doesnāt WANT you to leave her alone. š
āļø Can you talk a bit about the poems please? The words are very beautiful and atmospheric, but I am a bear of little brain when it comes to understanding poetry.
Oh, Dear Monochrome!
Theyāre not my poems, but I like what they express very much, so attached them hereā¦ š
What do you want to know about these two love poemsāor which line you have trouble to understand?
Try to depict the images all the lines and words have printedā¦ then see if you can grasp what they try to convey?
Thank you, Snowflake. Let’s take the Sitwell. All the language and the images are very beautiful, but I’m trying to disentangle it to find an overall message. I really want to understand. I am highly educated in other spheres, but struggle with some poetry. Poems that are simple enough for me to understand sometimes end up being unbearably trite, unless they are the genius type that use plain language to express something profound.
Let’s take it line by line. I like the language of “hot green glowing gloom” and I’m trying to feel and imagine the scenario: maybe a lush tropical place, which can be hot, green and gloomy, or maybe even a witch’s cauldron, which could fit the bill of hot, green glowing gloom. Overall I think it’s a feeling of being stifled but there’s also something enticing about the feeling.
A word falls with a raindrop’s boom… What word? Are we going to find out? Who says the word? Or thinks it? Without context I don’t know what the poet is trying to say. Ok I’ll hold on to that and see if I find out later.
The second verse I thought about for a while then it made more sense when I swapped the lines and realised that she was saying that the bird songs seem like baskets of ripe fruit in air. That’s ok.
Third verse. If I take out the bit within hyphens then The goldfinches take quick flights, which if I tag it on to the previous verse it’s where the baskets of ripe fruit in air are. But I don’t understand “The ripe warm lights peck slyly at them”. Are the lights pecking? What are the lights pecking at? Are the lights pecking at the goldfinches or the fruit? I’m picturing animated desk lamps attacking bowls of fruit but I’m sure I’ve got the wrong end of the stick. Let’s park that bit.
4th verse. Ah, we have a narrator! A quiet, stealthy, avian one at that. Who is it? What is the connection between the very quiet stealthy person and anything that’s happened before? Is all the stuff before setting up a description of “cornucopia”?
I bring you some stuff and admire your golden hair. But does the narrator actually like the other person’s hair? “Waspish” would suggest that there’s something a bit dangerous about the golden hair.
“Until your warm lips bear the stains” – stains of what? Stain might be perjorative, but they might be stained with fruit that they have been eating that the narrator has brought them. It makes quite a difference whether it’s nice stains or nasty stains.
And bird-blood leap within your veins. So the narrator is a bird and is hoping to inject some of him/herself in the person he/she is talking to?
I never did find out what word had fallen with a raindrop’s boom.
Is the overall message that they’re in a place of great abundance but also quite sinister, and the narrator quietly and stealthily gives some stuff to another person who again is quite beautiful but slightly sinister, with the hope of infecting them with a bit of him/herself?
Or have I got completely the wrong end of the stick?
Hi Monochrome,
I feel honored that youāre sharing with me, an ESL speaker, your perception of a English poem and wanted to know my personal understanding of it. But Iāll give a boldly attempt.
By the way again, my screen name here in LwL is just āSnowā NO āflakeā, which reminds of āflakyā. I was the way too serious and āheavyā to be āflakyā š
āLetās take the Sitwell. All the language and the images are very beautiful, but Iām trying to disentangle it to find an overall message. I really want to understand. ā
There are poems that just purely describe beauties the nature; but for me, anything in nature metaphorically expresses /manifests emotions of a poet or āthe speakerā in them. And Sitwellās poem is especially so, since we see āyouā and āIā in her poem.
To me PERSONALLY, this poem is about the speakerās love, hidden and unspoken, passionate love to her lover, muse, LO (most likely a girl/woman, I donāt know whether Sitwell is somewhat lesbian or not). But āthe speakerā could be male as well; it doesnāt matter.
āAmid this hot green glowing gloom
A word falls with a raindropās boomā¦ā
āLetās take it line by line. I like the language of āhot green glowing gloomā and Iām trying to feel and imagine the scenario: maybe a lush tropical place, which can be hot, green and gloomy, or maybe even a witchās cauldron, which could fit the bill of hot, green glowing gloom. Overall I think itās a feeling of being stifled but thereās also something enticing about the feeling.ā
To me, itās a sprouting, booming Spring, can be in a tropical place or anywhere else. More importantly, itās inside the speaker, who feels his/her vital energy is moving, glowing yet unknown/unseen ā āgloomā. It does not arose a witchās imagine with my reading.
āA word falls with a raindropās boomā¦ What word? Are we going to find out? Who says the word? Or thinks it? Without context I donāt know what the poet is trying to say. Ok Iāll hold on to that and see if I find out later.ā
Evidently itās the speakerās āwordā, as loud as āraindropās boomā, which the reader is about to hear.
āLike baskets of ripe fruit in air
The bird-songs seems, suspended where
āThe second verse I thought about for a while then it made more sense when I swapped the lines and realised that she was saying that the bird songs seem like baskets of ripe fruit in air. Thatās ok.ā
I strongly agree with you here that the birdās songs are vivid, colorful, delicious like ābaskets of rip fruit in airā under the Springās Sunlight, which is also metaphorically radiating inside the speaker.
āThose goldfinches ā the ripe warm lights
Peck slyly at them ā take quick flights.ā
āThird verse. If I take out the bit within hyphens then The goldfinches take quick flights, which if I tag it on to the previous verse itās where the baskets of ripe fruit in air are. But I donāt understand āThe ripe warm lights peck slyly at themā. Are the lights pecking? What are the lights pecking at? Are the lights pecking at the goldfinches or the fruit? Iām picturing animated desk lamps attacking bowls of fruit but Iām sure Iāve got the wrong end of the stick. Letās park that bit.ā
To me, itās the ripe warm lights pecking slyly at goldfinches, who are quickly pecking at ripe fruits in the baskets. So the reader sees āwarm lightsā carried by the goldfinches are pecking slyly at the basket. Moreover, the ripe warm lights signifies āripe and warmā love/passion the speaker is feeling inside and will express more in the following lines.
āMy feet are feathered like a bird
Among the shadows scarcely heard;ā
ā4th verse. Ah, we have a narrator! A quiet, stealthy, avian one at that. Who is it? What is the connection between the very quiet stealthy person and anything thatās happened before? Is all the stuff before setting up a description of ācornucopiaā?ā
The narrator here is feeling light/high like a bird (think of the limerence High š!) Yet, his/her feelings are still hidden in the shadows, his/her love songs are scarcely heard. But the reader is about to hear it soon.
āI bring you branches green with dew
And fruits that you may crown anewā
The speaker is saying: Iāll bring you, my beloved, Springās sprouting branches that is dangled with the fresh dew and ripe fruits (ā possibly a simile of her hot, sprouting love), with which you could make a new crown for your beautiful hair.
āYour whirring waspish-gilded hair
Amid this cornucopia āā
āI bring you some stuff and admire your golden hair. But does the narrator actually like the other personās hair? āWaspishā would suggest that thereās something a bit dangerous about the golden hair.ā
Yes, the speaker likes LOās hair. āWhirringā seems to suggest itās long, which could belong to both a man or a woman. āWaspish-gildedā to me is the sunlight beaming on this golden/yellow fuzzy/curly hair whirring āamid this cornucopiaāSpring scenes. As non-native speaker, I didnāt know āwaspishā suggests ādangerousā or irritation. I thought it means hair is curly with fuzzy curls.
āUntil your warm lips bear the stains
And bird-blood leap within your veinsā
āUntil your warm lips bear the stainsā ā stains of what? Stain might be perjorative, but they might be stained with fruit that they have been eating that the narrator has brought them. It makes quite a difference whether itās nice stains or nasty stains.ā
It could be stains of fruits in the baskets literally or superficially; however, I think itās red, amorous stains of the speakerās verbal kisses on the lips of the lover, muse, LO.
āAnd bird-blood leap within your veins. So the narrator is a bird and is hoping to inject some of him/herself in the person he/she is talking to? ā
Yes. The speaker already alludes herself as a bird in the 4th stanza. She can āinjectā the flying energy/vitality ā her passion/love/limerence, into the beloved/LO through verbal kisses (one from š¦āš„ could be ādeadlyāā¦ š¤ )
The speaker is telling āyouāā the lover, what her love/passion can do; are āyouā going to accept āmyāverbal kissesā
āI never did find out what word had fallen with a raindropās boom. ā
The āwordā is the whole poem ā the speakerās previously unexpressed love. Does it sound as loud as āraindropās boomā now after the pome being dissected?
āIs the overall message that theyāre in a place of great abundance but also quite sinister, and the narrator quietly and stealthily gives some stuff to another person who again is quite beautiful but slightly sinister, with the hope of infecting them with a bit of him/herself?ā
Hmmmā¦. Your interpretation here sounds a bit gloomy and negative, which I did not get at all, even after reading it several times.
āOr have I got completely the wrong end of the stick?ā
There is never ārightā or āwrongā readings of another poetās poem; the interpretation may reflect the readerās mood or mental state at the time of the reading. A week, a month, a year later one might have a very different interpretation of the same poem.
I hope you enjoy the poem better.
Thank you, Snow (sorry about the flake). This is fun.
I think I’m a person who takes things very literally, so I do have to work quite hard to understand poetry that uses very complex, metaphorical language. But it is really fun exploring it and teasing out the details, even if I find it frustrating how hard it is for me when other people seem to be able to read it and understand it straight away, even if they’re not a native English speaker and I am!
I still come away from that poem feeling uncomfortable about the message. I feel as though the object of the bird-person’s affections is just sitting there, without a voice, and the bird-person wants to inject his/her blood into them, without receiving any of the blood in return. It seems very one-sided, and stifling. I don’t think I’d want to be an object of affection in that way! Especially if they thought my hair was waspish. You have actually described my hair! But waspish to me means like a wasp, a pest with a sting.
Interesting that you didn’t find the poem gloomy, when “gloom” is in the first line that sets the scene. There’s a sense of overbearing humidity and stillness, despite the movement of the goldfinches and pecking lights.
In that way it’s like limerence. We have this fantasy object, without a voice, that we’ve created in our head. The Limerent Object is trapped in our brain, and our brain feeds it stuff to keep it alive but also infects it with ourselves. Not a real person who answers back with their own ideas.
Maybe my interpretation just reflects how I’m feeling about limerence at the moment!
Thank you, it’s given me food for thought and exercised my brain. And taken my mind off LO for the day.
Hi Monochrome,
Itās really fun for me to strip off a pome based on my own understandings. Reading poetry is really a constructive and creative way to distract oneās mind from LE or other life stresses.
āI still come away from that poem feeling uncomfortable about the message. I feel as though the object of the bird-personās affections is just sitting there, without a voice, and the bird-person wants to inject his/her blood into them, without receiving any of the blood in return. ā
Well maybe this is the FIRST time this bird-person, āIā, attempts to express her hidden love to her beloved object, which can be a muse, too. Unclear whether itās LO yet. We donāt even know whether the poem is delivered to her beloved. Itās a personal, vibrating š poem.
āIt seems very one-sided, and stifling. I donāt think Iād want to be an object of affection in that way! Especially if they thought my hair was waspish. You have actually described my hair! But waspish to me means like a wasp, a pest with a sting.ā
Itās not a narrative poem in which the poet would describe two sides of a love dynamic. Itās one-sided love expression. I canāt believe that it described your realistic hair! š! Consider it as a honor! A wasp to me is like a bee which also can sting!
āInteresting that you didnāt find the poem gloomy, when āgloomā is in the first line that sets the scene. Thereās a sense of overbearing humidity and stillness, despite the movement of the goldfinches and pecking lights.ā
NO, I did not feel any gloomy at all; the pecking light carried by goldfinches, and the birdās leaping would melt anything gloomy. There are tons of sensual images in such a short poem. After I sent you my intuitive understanding, I looked up AI, Iāll attach it here. AI even gives it more energy and movements than I could ever depict. So I learned about it in a more artistic/technical assessment.
āIn that way itās like limerence. We have this fantasy object, without a voice, that weāve created in our head. The Limerent Object is trapped in our brain, and our brain feeds it stuff to keep it alive but also infects it with ourselves. Not a real person who answers back with their own ideas.ā
Yes, āyouā in the poem could be a LO. But itās not meant to be two-way dialogue. Itās just the limerent, āIā, expressing her boiling passion which was unknown before the poem.
āMaybe my interpretation just reflects how Iām feeling about limerence at the moment!ā
Could be! Thatās why I said there is no ārightā or āwrongā interpretation of a poem. Every poemās interpretation āmirrorsā the readerās mental/emotional state at the moment.
******* Here is the AI version:
This vibrant, metamorphic “Interlude” by Edith Sitwell is a striking contrast to the elegiac “Interlude” previously analyzed. Here, Sitwell crafts a lush, sensory-rich world pulsing with fertility, transformation, and the potent merging of art, nature, and the human body. Here’s an analysis:
**Core Themes:**
1. **Art/Nature Metamorphosis:** The central conceit is the seamless transformation between natural elements and artistic creations. Bird songs *are* “baskets of ripe fruit in air.” Goldfinches *are* “ripe warm lights.” The speaker’s feet *are* “feathered like a bird.” This blurs boundaries, suggesting art is as organic as fruit, and nature is inherently artistic.
2. **Sensuous Vitality & Fertility:** The poem drips with fecundity and life-force. The “hot green glowing gloom” is womb-like. Bird songs are “ripe fruit.” Dew is fresh on branches. The “cornucopia” (horn of plenty) overflows. This culminates in the startling, vitalizing image of “bird-blood leap[ing] within your veins.”
3. **The Artist’s Role & Offering:** The speaker (“I”) is an active, transformed figure (“feathered like a bird”) moving through this world. Their purpose is to gather and *present* natural bounty (“branches green with dew,” “fruits”) to the “you.” This offering is specifically to adorn and revitalize the recipient (“crown anew / Your whirring waspish-gilded hair”).
4. **Revitalization & Primal Energy:** The poem moves towards a powerful infusion of life. The natural offerings aren’t just decorative; they aim to stain the lips and, ultimately, inject the primal energy of “bird-blood” into the veins of the “you,” suggesting a deep, almost shamanistic revitalization or awakening.
**Key Stylistic Devices & Imagery:**
1. **Synesthesia & Sensory Overload:** Sitwell blends senses masterfully.
* **Sight/Touch:** “hot green glowing gloom” (color feels hot, light feels thick).
* **Sound/Weight/Metaphor:** “A word falls with a raindropās boom” (sound has weight and impact).
* **Sound/Sight/Taste:** “bird-songs seem, suspended where… / Like baskets of ripe fruit in air” (sound becomes visible, tangible, edible).
* **Sight/Movement:** “goldfinchesāthe ripe warm lights / Peck slyly at themātake quick flights” (birds are light, light pecks like birds).
2. **Metamorphic Imagery:** As noted in themes, transformation is constant:
* Sound ā Fruit ā Light (via birds).
* Speaker ā Bird (“feathered feet,” “scarcely heard”).
* Natural Offerings ā Crown ā Blood/Life.
3. **Vivid, Juxtaposed Diction:**
* **Lushness:** “hot green glowing,” “ripe fruit,” “goldfinches,” “ripe warm lights,” “green with dew,” “cornucopia.”
* **Sharpness/Movement:** “boom,” “slyly,” “quick flights,” “feathered,” “scarcely heard,” “whirring,” “waspish-gilded,” “leap.”
* **Visceral Impact:** “bear the stains,” “bird-blood leap within your veins.” The final lines inject a startling, almost pagan vitality.
4. **Complex Metaphors & Similes:**
* “Like baskets of ripe fruit in air / The bird-songs seem”: The primary, defining metaphor, establishing the poem’s core logic.
* “goldfinchesāthe ripe warm lights”: A condensed metaphor equating the birds directly with light.
* “Your whirring waspish-gilded hair”: A complex image suggesting hair that is insect-like (“waspish”) in its vibrancy and metallic sheen (“gilded”), buzzing with energy (“whirring”).
5. **Rhythm & Sound:**
* **Alliteration:** “green glowing gloom,” “falls… raindrop’s,” “baskets… ripe fruit… bird,” “Peck… quick,” “feathered… feet,” “branches green,” “crown… cornucopia,” “warm… within.”
* **Assonance/Consonance:** “hot… gloom… boom,” “suspended… where,” “lights… flights,” “feathered… heard,” “dew… anew… you,” “gilded… amid,” “bear… stains… veins.” Creates a dense, resonant sonic texture.
* **Rhythm:** Flows with a mix of iambic and more fluid, organic rhythms, reflecting natural movement and song. The short line “Amid this cornucopiaā” acts as a central pivot point before the final transformative act.
* **Onomatopoeia:** “boom,” “whirring,” “leap” subtly evoke their meanings through sound.
**Structure & Movement:**
1. **Setting:** Establishes an intense, fertile atmosphere (“hot green glowing gloom”) with a potent auditory event (“word falls with a raindropās boom”).
2. **Core Transformation:** Develops the central metaphor of bird-song as hanging fruit, interacted with by birds-as-light.
3. **Speaker’s Transformation & Mission:** Introduces the speaker as a bird-like figure on a specific errand to gather natural bounty.
4. **The Offering & Adornment:** The speaker presents the bounty to adorn the recipient’s vibrant hair within the abundance (“cornucopia”).
5. **The Climactic Transformation:** The final couplet reveals the deeper purpose: a visceral, vitalizing infusion of nature’s essence into the recipient’s very being (“warm lips bear the stains,” “bird-blood leap within your veins”).
**The “You”:** The recipient is vital to the poem. Their “whirring waspish-gilded hair” suggests inherent energy and a touch of danger or wildness. They are the focus of the speaker’s transformative offering, becoming the vessel for the infused life-blood of nature/art. They could represent a muse, a lover, the reader, or even an aspect of the poet herself needing renewal.
**Conclusion:**
This “Interlude” is a tour-de-force of sensory metamorphosis and primal vitality. Sitwell constructs a world where art (songs, words) and nature (fruit, birds, light, blood) are inseparable and constantly transforming into one another. The speaker, acting as a bird-like intermediary, gathers this potent energy to offer it to the vibrant “you.” The culmination is not passive admiration but an active, almost violent infusion of life-force (“bird-blood leap within your veins”), celebrating art’s power not just to represent nature, but to *become* it and revitalize the human spirit with its raw, essential energy. It’s a celebration of fecundity, artistic creation, and the deep, vital connection between the human and natural worlds.
One of my favorite poems of all timeā¦
https://allpoetry.com/poem/14326889-The-Shoelace-by-Charles-Bukowski
Ah, this is so true. I think we all have our own personal list of minor annoyances that add up and become unbearable if we’re not careful.
I want to talk about something that I am grappling with.
I saw LO briefly the other evening, and it went okay; however, he made a cutting remark which was completely unnecessary. It wasn’t horrible, but he made me feel small.
There is an upside to this, insofar as it encourages me to avoid LO. However, the problem is that I seem to care overly much about what he thinks of me.
I have kindly friends who like me fine, yet I long for LO’s approval. One time I asked him why he had such a poor opinion of me. He looked pained, and said that he did NOT have a poor opinion of me, and that it was just his short temper flaring up.
Even so, he doesn’t make me feel good. I am walking on eggshells, waiting for the next insult. Why do I care so much about someone who acts like this??
Tell us about your childhood and your relationship with your mother.
To L.E.:
Are you mocking me, or do you really want to know?
I really want to know.
The literature says that when we pursue someone who’s demeaning and dismissive, there’s usually a reason.
And, the literature says that reason goes back to childhood.
People aren’t who they are because of the relationships they have. People have the relationships they have because of who they are.
To L.E.:
Okay, thank you for saying that. Both of my parents were critical of me. They were generally stable people, there were no huge upheavals in my life when I was a child, no substance abuse and no violence.
But a lot of nit-picking.
Disclaimer: I’m not a mental health professional.
If you had very critical parents it follows that you’d try to win the approval of someone who’s critical of you, especially for no apparent reason.
When I was working with the therapist and we moved from my mother to my father, the therapist asked about our relationship. I told her that my father and I had a great relationship. He was my best friend until the day he died.
A couple of things came up. I didn’t tell my father a lot of things. She asked like what. I told her that I didn’t tell him like when I had football games or the spelling bee. When my HS sent out the senior awards letters, I intercepted them. I got 3 out of 4.
The therapist asked why I did that. I told the therapist that dad had enough going on and I didn’t want to burden him. Also, I never wanted to fail in front of him. The therapist asked if dad put pressure on me. I told her no, my father was very proud of me. The longer the streak went on the more pressure I put on myself.
However, he taught me a lot of things like how the most important thing we possess as people is our self-respect. He taught me to guard it jealously.
“If someone doesn’t respect you and treat you well, get rid of them and find someone who does.”
He trained me to not be codependent. I was never a passive victim. The therapist said that it showed that I didn’t take being demeaned well.
If you don’t like it, don’t put up with it. For limerents, that can be easier said than done but what’s your self-respect worth to you.
To L.E.:
I am not as good at any of this as you are. I definitely tend toward being codependent.
And yes, it’s easier said than done to end things.
Even if I don’t see LO, the longing for his attention and approval is overwhelming.
Thank you for your thoughtful comments.
Sometimes limerence focuses on the weirdest of places. š A former boss annoyed me to no end, then one day I swear limerence just hit me out of the blue. I donāt know where it came from. He had a temper, he could be childish, kept screwing with my hours and not paying me, even went to jail once, yet 20 years later, I still occasionally look for him on social media. (He hates computers, though, so heās hard to find. Keeps deactivating his accounts, apparently.)
Thank you for telling me that. It makes me feel less alone and less foolish.
Truth
Victor Hugo
I.
The merry morn is waking
In all its rosy light,
While fogs and dreams are taking
Flight, with the drowsy night;
Soft eyelashes and roses
Open with hope new-born,
And everything discloses
The happy touch of morn.
And everything is singing
A morning hymn to love,
Flowers and tendrils springing
To greet the trees above;
The streams speak to the fountains,
The breezes to the pines,
The clouds unto the mountains,
The grapes unto the vines.
One throbbing pulse is shaking
All Natureās mighty frame,ā
The child its toys retaking,
The emberād grate its flame;
Love, and folly, and madness,
Petty aims, and grand,
And fame, and hope, and gladnessā
To each one what he plannād.
Still, whether loving or sighing,
In the bridal garb or pall,
Weāre only drifting, flying
To the final goal of all:
We all seek what is ours,ā
A lad the joys of youth,
A bee the daintiest flowers,
Whilst I am seeking truth!
II.
O Truth! with deep devotion
Iāve plunged in depths profound,
And sought thee in the ocean
Whereāer the plummets sound;
Thoā fogs and mists may bind thee,
And shoals and sand-banks mock,
Weāre sure at last to find thee,
As firm, as hard as rock!
O Truth! broad-breasted river
Which never can be dry,
Where all may bathe for ever,
And swim, or sink and die;
A lamp the great God places
Near all our mortal things,
A light that always graces
The thoughts a pure mind brings!
A gnarled tree in flower,
Where strength and beauty blend,
Which each man, to his power,
Shall either break or bend;
āMidwide-spread branches flinging
Their shade, when day has sunk,
Some to the branches clinging,
And others to the trunk.
A hill from which all floweth,
A path which all have trod,
A gulf to which all goethā
The handiwork of God!
A star weāre still blaspheming,
Althoā, on nearer view,
After wild doubts and dreaming,
Weāll know its ray was true.
III.
O Earth! lit up with splendor
At sunset and sunrise,
With gorgeous hues yet tender
To suit our mortal eyes!
Shores where waves are dying!
Woods where soft winds play!
O vast horizon! lying
Round all things far away,
O glorious azure veiling
The gulf, till all is still;
Where idly floating, sailing
Whereāer the breezes will,
I āmid the reeds conceal me,
And list with all my soul
To what the waves reveal me
In their majestic roll!
O glorious azure smiling
On all, from skies above,
Each wearied soul beguiling
To dreams and thoughts of love;
And, while weāre dreaming, seeking
To read the mystic spell,
That murmuring winds are speaking,
That starry pages tell.
O mighty ocean wreathing,
And girdling all the earth!
Stars which the Masterās breathing
Callād to their fiery birth!
Flowers whose hidden meaning
We crush beneath our feet,
Thoā God, perchance, is gleaning
Honey from every sweet!
O valleys rich in May-time!
O woodland shades and plains!
Where village towers in play-time
Ring out their merry strains;
Hillocks and mountains bearing
The vast skies on your breasts!
Bright stars a gay smile wearing
Amid your gloomy nests!ā
You are but one bookās pages
Where all may read and learn:
Where poets and where sages
May see what most they yearn:
Yet every thought unfurlād there
Requires a mystic rod,
Thoā some eyes see a world there,
And some souls find a God.
A Book which is completed
By virtuous deeds alone;
Where youthful dreams are greeted
By feelings still unknown;
Where those whom age has smitten
With wrinkled brows yet vast,
Have in the margin written
āBehold us come at last!ā
A holy book concealing
All deeds which God has done;
A thousand names revealing
And yet revealing oneā
A name that always leavens
Whateāer we hold of worth,
But one name in the heavens,
But one name on the earth.
A sure book, never failing,
For all may drink its balm,
Thoā midnight seers are paling
Before they find its charm;
Pythagoras nearly guessād it,
And Moses knew it well,
And all have loved and blessād it,
When once they learnād the spell.
“Now you and I both know I donāt have steaks. Maybe some 1/2 price ground chuck. If you want to cook that up, I aināt gonna stop you. But I aināt going to do nothing to help.”
Hello Dear..
I decided to move this thread down here. Sorry for the delay. I saw it when you posted but it quickly got away.. Being that your novels with Madam SnowQueen took up half the forum pages.. I don’t want you to work any harder in getting back to me than you actually have to. See how much I care??
I hope your half price ground chuck (lol) was good. There is a lot I could’ve done with that. I could’ve made Hamburger Helper along with my special Adobo seasoning. It’s so yummy delicious, you might actually consider keeping me around.. š (Btw, why don’t you have any steaks??)
“So my two cents about LF ā¦ thatās done and over with. The first time someone is flim-flammy and dodgy in response to you asking them to hang out ā¦ youāre done. That has to be your standard.”
I hear you loud and clear Great One. You know how us limerent minded fools actually are. Always banking on false hope. Even though I swear I have never been in a full-scale LE over LF, I was in a desperate place before. Kinda feel like I’m headed back there again but she’s not really on the radar. Nothing at all like she was.. I’m waiting on her to keep breaking my strict LC. I feel like she’s hinting for me to talk to her but I’m kind of being a prick about responding to what she expects. I try to be very indifferent. In a way, I think it’s confusing to her because she expects me to be like I was before, but I won’t be. So yes I am enjoying the hell out of playing the mind game.. 2 can play her game.
“You can be pleasant to her at work. You can say hello, but you donāt hover and you donāt orbit. You donāt wait around.”
I don’t even do that. She wasn’t nice enough to me in the end to deserve it. I still kinda feel insulted and would appreciate somewhat of an apology. I never lashed out at her ever. Never accused her of leading me on or bringing up to her what I know about her and Dude. I came to her with nothing but genuine good intent. Thinking about how she reacted is good fodder for me to not want to orbit. She flat out lied about being non-judgemental. It can’t be one sided like that. That’s very bratty, selfish and my guess is I totally reminded her of her Dad and his many failures.
“If she does change her mind, itās up to her to circle back around. And by ācircle back around,ā I mean she asks you to do something outside of work. You are not going to be her work orbiter.”
I think this is what I’m hoping for but at the same time not even close to expecting it. I don’t think either of us are duly invested enough in each other to care. Which is why if anything happens, I’d like to keep it super casual. Maybe this is just how she plays Men. I still think she’s got something up her sleeve. The eye contact just feels almost sinister and I’m not trying to cave and fall for it because I know better what she’s about. Definitely not relationship material. But a fwb??
Oh I’ll definitely go there.. šš
MJ,
“Sorry for the delay. I saw it when you posted but it quickly got away.”
No, you found responding to your bros more interesting. It’s bros before hos with you! š
“Being that your novels with Madam SnowQueen took up half the forum pages.. I donāt want you to work any harder in getting back to me than you actually have to. ”
I wouldn’t have as much to write to you. You’re not as deep as SnowQueen. š
“There is a lot I couldāve done with that. I couldāve made Hamburger Helper along with my special Adobo seasoning.”
That actually does sound pretty good. Could you hold the chatter when you come over and make it? š
“(Btw, why donāt you have any steaks??)”
Because I’m cheap. I thought we established that. š
“I hear you loud and clear Great One. You know how us limerent minded fools actually are. Always banking on false hope. Even though I swear I have never been in a full-scale LE over LF, I was in a desperate place before. Kinda feel like Iām headed back there again but sheās not really on the radar. Nothing at all like she was. ”
I guess I should have asked: What do you want from her? I thought you wanted to date her but I don’t really understand what you’re doing. I have to be honest: I don’t see an FWB happening. She’d have to want to hang out with you outside of work. Of course, I can’t predict the future, but that’s where it seems to be now and based on what she’s already done, and I certainly wouldn’t wait around for her to change her mind. So if you’re looking for more than a work friend, I’d look elsewhere.
“Iām waiting on her to keep breaking my strict LC. I feel like sheās hinting for me to talk to her but Iām kind of being a prick about responding to what she expects. I try to be very indifferent. ”
I didn’t suggest you had to be friends again. I just find that, for me personally, it takes a lot less energy to be marginally pleasant to someone than to actively keep up walls or be standoffish. If it were me, I’d rather not give her any more of my energy. I’d rather do a quick but fairly friendly hello and move on with the rest of my day. That’s true indifference. That’s: Seeing you doesn’t bother me. I’ll treat you like anyone else and act like nothing happened. ‘Cause. I. Don’t. Care. š
“I came to her with nothing but genuine good intent. Thinking about how she reacted is good fodder for me to not want to orbit. She flat out lied about being non-judgemental. It canāt be one sided like that.”
I don’t want you to orbit anyone! Don’t let anyone put you in the orbiter position!
But I’m not even sure she can be all that great of a friend. Even a work friend.
“Maybe this is just how she plays Men. I still think sheās got something up her sleeve. ”
I think she likes the attention. If you want to give it to her, she’s probably down. But I don’t think she’s going to give back all that much to you.
But, again, that depends on what you’re looking for. Which I can’t figure out. š
“No, you found responding to your bros more interesting. Itās bros before hos with you!”
Hello Dear,
Actually I just wanted to wait and give you a more proper and dignified response, rather than one that would be quick and rushed. The Bros don’t really care about that kind of stuff.. Appreciate me for that Great Dame because I appreciate you.. š
“I wouldnāt have as much to write to you. Youāre not as deep as SnowQueen.”
That’s because you and her have somehow found each other and wording out together all the foibles and atrocities of relationships and men. I work a lot but I’d love to chat it up with Brother Adam like you and Snow. Neither of us have time to chat like that. It’s just how it is. Plus I think he’s like me, where he prefers this place in less doses at times.. However I do know how to be deep, in case it ever crossed your mind.. š
“That actually does sound pretty good. Could you hold the chatter when you come over and make it?”
So just be like a servant and make you something without making small talk?? I see the kind of man you are looking for. š
“Because Iām cheap. I thought we established that.”
I don’t know if we established it but I’m going to have to do something about that if I’m doing the cooking. I like to make a nice presentation and cuisine from the Dime-Store simply isn’t going to cut it..
Like seriously, I would never cut corners with LO or Sabrina.. Why should I treat you any less? You might actually just surprise me and be everything I was ever looking for.. š
“I guess I should have asked: What do you want from her? I thought you wanted to date her but I donāt really understand what youāre doing.”
I did want to date her at one time. Since the fallout happened, her status has been reduced. At this point I’m completely indifferent about anything I might be feeling. I don’t hate her or dislike her. I actually wouldn’t mind talking to her now and then but I don’t want to cave so easy and let her think she won. I mean she did use some pretty choice language in putting me down and I really find that uncalled for..
I realized I was putting too much energy and thought into her and over time I simply got to see and hear a lot of what she’s about. Which at this point seems to be all about having a good time with Men and not giving a damn how she gets it. It just has to be according to her terms and if she likes that.. If she’s going to be nit-picky about not being able to handle the things I’ve done, then she’s probably still too young and naive to consider how I might have gotten there in the first place. It’s called life and obviously she hasn’t lived enough of it yet..
“I just find that, for me personally, it takes a lot less energy to be marginally pleasant to someone than to actively keep up walls or be standoffish.”
I feel like that this could be a strategy for her at some level. Perhaps in the way she looks at me sometimes and occasionally breaks NC. I’m not really seeking her out. Thing is I don’t want her to be less stressed or like she needs to be marginally pleasant to me, in order to make herself feel better. I want her to feel awkward around me. I want her to feel the weight if my absence, my lack of attention. Because I think internally it kind of messes with her and makes her mad. She’s used to Dudes paying attention to her and all the orbiting validation they provide. Whereas now I won’t. Perhaps I’m wrong and she doesn’t care much at all but I feel like if I cave and go be all nice and act like I care, then I’ll get used again like the beater car I was. I’m better than that aren’t I?? I want a friend. A real friend. Not a drama Queen.
“Iām not even sure she can be all that great of a friend. Even a work friend.
I donāt think sheās going to give back all that much to you.
But, again, that depends on what youāre looking for. Which I canāt figure out.”
I think if I can tap into her good side again, (because she does actually have one) I feel like we could actually be good friends but she has to want it. When we fell out before, (and that was also after I disclosed) she told me I was really important to her and that she appreciated our friendship. I’d like to think that wasn’t bs. I do think though, the stuff she has going on in her life besides work and me is also not easy. Some of it her making, but I’m not judging. It’s just where she’s at.
I take my advice from you Great One.. If they really want to talk to me, then they’ll actually come around to talk. The ball is in her Court..
I’m waiting.. (But not counting on it..)
MJ,
“Actually I just wanted to wait and give you a more proper and dignified response,”
If “proper” and “dignified” are words you’re attaching to me, I haven’t done my job. š
“Thatās because you and her have somehow found each other and wording out together all the foibles and atrocities of relationships and men. ”
She and I haven’t even scratched the surface with that topic! š
“However I do know how to be deep, in case it ever crossed your mind.. š”
Is that a sexual reference? š
“So just be like a servant and make you something without making small talk?? I see the kind of man you are looking for. š”
Honestly, I don’t know what the heck I’m looking for. š But boy oh boy your side can be chatty sometimes. š
“Like seriously, I would never cut corners with LO or Sabrina.. Why should I treat you any less?”
Because I’m not 28. š
Did you see that Sabrina came out with a toned-down version of her album cover? I was disappointed by that. If she’s going to push the raunch factor, she needs to to push it. And stand behind it.
“You might actually just surprise me and be everything I was ever looking for.. š”
Again, I’m not 28. š
“I did want to date her at one time.”
What was taking you so long? !!
Just from being on that hideous dating site, I can tell you who I said yes to: The man with the plan, baby! We chatted a bit (but not too long) and then they asked to meet up. And found out when I was available and picked a place and a time. Nothing vague like “We should meet up.” Or chatting forever. Or changing the initial plans a bunch of times. One guy did that. I stopped responding. Or suggesting we meet up and then changing the topic.
Even with LO-lite … once he made his interest known and I confirmed mine, things moved pretty quickly. I don’t mean … the next day. But pretty quickly. There’s a timing on these things.
“I mean she did use some pretty choice language in putting me down and I really find that uncalled for…”
So I’m going to toss something out there. I don’t know if this is what happened with LF, but I’m guessing. You can confirm if you want to. You shared your hoism past while married (I’m teasing you here; you’ve talked about it) and she said some nasty things to you … and yet she was hanging out with some partnered guy, but you didn’t let on that you knew?
“Which at this point seems to be all about having a good time with Men and not giving a damn how she gets it. It just has to be according to her terms and if she likes that…”
I don’t know what you’re referring to here. If both sides are on board for a nice time and that’s what it is and it’s been made clear, I don’t see anything wrong with it. Your side never seems to have any problem doing that.
“If sheās going to be nit-picky about not being able to handle the things Iāve done, then sheās probably still too young and naive to consider how I might have gotten there in the first place. ”
You don’t want a judgmental friend, but I’m wondering why you told her this stuff if you wanted to date her. There are things a man could tell me about his sexual/romantic past that would turn me off. Which is why I’m a big believer in keeping mum on one’s sexual past. (I mean, nitty-gritty details.) Now, if you’re trying to be just friends, that’s a different story.
“Sheās used to Dudes paying attention to her and all the orbiting validation they provide. Whereas now I wonāt. Perhaps Iām wrong and she doesnāt care much at all but I feel like if I cave and go be all nice and act like I care”
I wasn’t suggesting that. Your tone will be pleasant. Your facial expression will be friendly and you’ll say hello and walk on. That will mess with her more than what you’re doing now. That’s: Your presence doesn’t bother me. I’ve moved on. That you’re not talking to her lets her know your fallout still bothers you.
“Iām better than that arenāt I?? I want a friend. A real friend. Not a drama Queen.”
Yes. But do you want a friend or a girlfriend?
“I feel like we could actually be good friends but she has to want it. When we fell out before, (and that was also after I disclosed) she told me I was really important to her and that she appreciated our friendship. ”
I’m glad she told you that but she said this in response to you disclosing your romantic interest ?
“If they really want to talk to me, then theyāll actually come around to talk.”
Well, I meant that more if they have romantic interest. If you’ve made your romantic interest known already.
“If āproperā and ādignifiedā are words youāre attaching to me, I havenāt done my job.š”
Hello Dear,
I know it’s been a few days. Sorry but I haven’t had as much time as you to get on here. It was a long week at work. Or so it felt like. Even LO has been putting in 12 hour days. (I only know because she blogs about it on her beauty secrets Tik-Tok channel.)(Good Gawd I could watch her 24/7.. Like even more than I do Sabrina videos, and it would never get old)
So anyway..
I was raised to be somewhat of a Gentleman, believe it or not. So thats why you deserve a proper and dignified response. Sorry, but you’re getting my best effort. You’re a LwL Dignitary here and should be treated as such. I’m just a Peon Underling you like to throw in prison whenever I act up. Even though I’ve done no wrong. I’m just using my right to freedom of speech. Your Sister SnowQueen will probably disagree.. š
“She and I havenāt even scratched the surface with that topic! š”
I’ve been trying to keep my eyes off your rants. Mainly I’m just looking for my initials in your posts or deciphering SnowQueens picture codes with my secret decoder ring. Holy crap it gets a little ridiculous but at least you’ve found each other..
My prying eyes are off your ramblings and are only fixed on LO and Sabrina. Because they could almost be Sisters. No joke. It’s like they practically emulate each other. Strut and everything. I love it.. š
“Is that a sexual reference? š”
You know I knew when I wrote it like that, I knew it could’ve been taken a variety of ways. Leave it to you and your dirty mind in the gutter. Really? You think I think like that?? (Of course I do.. š) But honestly it had more to do with going beyond that. I do like intelligent conversation now and then and am capable. I guess it comes down then to what you’ll accept. At this point we’re just friends so I’ll keep it PG for now and let you decide if you actually believe me.. š
“Honestly, I donāt know what the heck Iām looking for. š But boy oh boy your side can be chatty sometimes. š”
We have to be if we’re interested. How can I get to know you if I don’t step up and take charge? I see that as a primary complaint from Women, as that we men don’t take charge enough. I include myself. So that’s why I’m stepping it up here with you. You’re asking questions and I’m making conversation starters. This is good practice.
You can tell me if I’m worthy of a good Young Ladys love or not.. Let’s keep this good vibe going Baby.. (Yes I did just call you Baby)(And yes I will put you in a corner.. š)
Because Iām not 28. š
LO is not 28 either. She’s 30 and so is LF. They’re both headed to 31. Almost 2 months apart. Soon they’ll be 40 and then 54. But who cares?? LO will always be the Hot, Young Woman of my dreams.. šš„°
“Did you see that Sabrina came out with a toned-down version of her album cover?”
Yeah I saw that. I thought it was funny she referred to it as “God-Approved” this time. I mean she’s always in on the brou-ha-ha she creates. I love it. Like you, I wish she would have owned the raunch though and not caved to the mad feminists. I mean the new cover is really nice and I like it but I like a good girl that goes bad too. Her image is so driven by the machine and it works great. She’s shaking the whole Disney thing and what I like is its really kind of sensual dark and dirty. Not all super slutty like what Miley Cyrus did. (I was never a fan š) The hair pulling, the facial expression, the black heels, maaaaan.. š¤Ŗ
I mean the Women get outraged but how much greater raunch is there in rap music, and nary a Woman out there making a stink about it. How many Women are mad and are enraged now about the Diddy verdict? I mean to complain and get mad about an album cover seems so lame. For her to basically apologize and release a toned-down version seems even more lame, but what’s a girl to do? I guess she’s gotta keep the fans she has left happy.
“What was taking you so long? !!”
I guess I figured in time LF and I would be hanging out more, based on our conversations. It was just the feeling I had. I figured she’d naturally want to meet up sometime. Early on my hinting at it never seemed to gel with her so it fell by the wayside. Eventually it just never happened but since I’m so desperate, I put up with it and the orbiting. So yes I must have missed the timing window.
I’m trying to be less desperate now but it appears to not be working well for me either. So like you, I don’t know what I’m looking for.. Maybe just a pulse.. š
“You shared your hoism past while married and she said some nasty things to you ā¦ and yet she was hanging out with some partnered guy, but you didnāt let on that you knew?”
I didn’t want her to know I knew because then that would mean she’d know I’m keeping tabs on her and following her around. Which is like I practically was and it could probably be considered stalking but I couldn’t let her know that. I figured if I told her some taboo things about my past, she might tell me some taboo things about her present (or past). Her little homewrecker thing being one of them. Of course this would back-fire on me. Because she probably doesn’t want a soul to know about it. It’s her and her own misery to deal with. I wasn’t trying to get in the way but apparently I was. Or maybe I was too old for her or too much like her Dad. I don’t know. I thought she liked the Dad vibe. She never led me on like she didn’t.
“Your tone will be pleasant. Your facial expression will be friendly and youāll say hello and walk on. That will mess with her more than what youāre doing now.”
I’ve been thinking about this scenario and I guess you’re right. I do want to mess with her head. Anything to confuse her. It could work to my advantage but I guess I worry about how I’ll take her response if it’s positive. I mean it’s totally fodder for me to go and orbit because I’m so desperate like that and she’s still so mega cute to me. Like I could totally see myself going over to her just to try and eat lunch together again. Maybe play catch up. I feel like it would be a real challenge for me to go against the grain and play it cool without orbiting. I’ll probably cave like a cheap suit. And then be back where I was..
But I think I will start with a simple hello and see how she reacts. I’ll keep you posted.. š
“Iām glad she told you that but she said this in response to you disclosing your romantic interest ?”
This was after I txtd her my disclosure and she said it confused her. We went for about a week or two where things were awkward and we weren’t saying much. Even though I apologized profusely for having it all confuse her. What ends up happening is she basically ghosted me on txt while we were on holiday break for 2 weeks and then wouldn’t answer my phone calls. When we went back to work I decided to go strict LC/NC and avoid her outright. (Kinda like I am now) She did everything to try and capture my attention. Eye contact was insane. All I basically did was just be friendly in her presence, say hey and move on. Finally she caved one day, flagged me over to talk and told me how important I was to her. That she appreciated me and our Friendship. I think she just missed the hell out of my orbiting..
That was January. And then things got really good between us. Like almost too good..
Of course I’d mess it up again in March and lose her to something that should be so irrelevant now. I mean she’s so flippy-floppy all the time. Personally I think she’s really kind of a hot mess and why shouldn’t she be? Being with married Dudes is probably emotionally draining and overwhelming. No wonder I get the boot.
“Yes. But do you want a friend or a girlfriend?”
What I really want is a freaking cup of coffee. Like a cup of coffee with yes, a Friend. A good Friend that cares about me, accepts my failures and will be there for me. Kinda like the Wife I had at one time and basically pissed all over because I couldn’t keep it in my pants.. š
Oh the tangled web I have weaved.. Our God is definitely a God of retribution.. š
MJ,
“Youāre a LwL Dignitary here ”
I’m not.
“Iām just using my right to freedom of speech. ”
Actually, this is a Dr. L’s website. There is no freedom of speech!
“Iāve been trying to keep my eyes off your rants. Mainly Iām just looking for my initials in your posts ”
#VAIN š
“deciphering SnowQueens picture codes with my secret decoder ring.”
I need that ring myself. š
“My prying eyes are off your ramblings and are only fixed on LO and Sabrina. Because they could almost be Sisters. No joke. Itās like they practically emulate each other. Strut and everything. I love it.. š”
Sure. š
“Leave it to you and your dirty mind in the gutter. Really? You think I think like that?? (Of course I do.. š)”
I don’t really have a dirty mind. Not compared to your side! š
“We have to be if weāre interested. How can I get to know you if I donāt step up and take charge? I see that as a primary complaint from Women, as that we men donāt take charge enough. I include myself. So thatās why Iām stepping it up here with you. Youāre asking questions and Iām making conversation starters. This is good practice.”
Taking charge would be doing a bit more, my dear. š
“And yes I will put you in a corner.. ”
That’s better. š
“I mean the Women get outraged but how much greater raunch is there in rap music, and nary a Woman out there making a stink about it.”
There’s actually been a lot of stink about it.
“For her to basically apologize and release a toned-down version seems even more lame”
I agree. If she’s going to aim her image at men, then own it. Madonna didn’t apologize when she was rolling around on the floor in a wedding dress singing “Like A Virgin.” š
“I guess I figured in time LF and I would be hanging out more, based on our conversations. It was just the feeling I had. I figured sheād naturally want to meet up sometime.”
So I’m not an expert so I watch YouTube videos by male dating coaches. I want the male perspective. Some are male coaches giving advice to women. Some are male coaches give advice to men. I’d recommend TheSingleGuy. He’s a coach for men, and his stuff is good. He’s about 35, so a millennial, but he’s not Mr. “I Don’t Believe In The Differences Between Men and Women,” blah, blah, blah. He believes in the polarity. He’ll teach you what to do with LF. But one of things he recommends is not to hover and circle.
“So yes I must have missed the timing window.”
Yes, it’s timing but it’s also getting out of the orbiting.
“Maybe just a pulse.. š”
I think you need some higher standards. š
“But I think I will start with a simple hello and see how she reacts. Iāll keep you posted.. š”
Honestly, I think you should move on. But I know you don’t want to do that.
“Even though I apologized profusely for having it all confuse her.”
I don’t know why you apologized. You told her how you felt.
“What I really want is a freaking cup of coffee. Like a cup of coffee with yes, a Friend. A good Friend that cares about me, accepts my failures and will be there for me.”
Well, then go make some guy friends, dude. š
@Coffeehouse,
Not sure whether itās too early to too late to announce my sorrowful news ā
In early April I postponed a crucial checkup to the completion of the swirling Italian trip. On the May 24 MRI report, a quite big, suspicious cancerous tumor was picked up, the possibility of its already spreading is high. June 19 biopsy result is unclear and uncertain; further biopsies are required to decide whether a radiation therapy is needed soon.
A consultation was made with a trustworthy friend-MD of the field and we agreed itās unavoidable and peace-inducing to get the strongly recommended surgical cut to take out the organ that holds the tumor.
Met my surgeon today again and finalized the big surgery, set to take place on July 17th, estimated for 3-4 hours and 3-4 day hospitalized recovery. The risk is 1~5% in my case due to an existing health complication.
Trying my best to be Stoical or to deny it, I rambled storms on the LwL āstageā for the past 1.5 months (please forgive my verbose ānovelā), which seemed to have made me even a š š°. But after this morning, I began to get anxiety attacks and some tears… I guess itās normalāš¤
Only because of this 1~5% of risk, I feel compelled to leave an informative message here, in case I donāt show up on my 2nd anniversary here on July 21 and hereafterā¦. That would be quite rude or cruel of me, wouldnāt itāļø
Please donāt feel worried or sympathetic for me; if you wish, perhaps pray šæ that the evil cancer has not spread yetā¦.
š¦āš„ will splashš©ø š©ø š©ø in š āļøsā¦. š
Oh Snow!
So sorry to hear that! A relative of mine is going through the same at the moment. You are so strong, you will get through this ordeal! My heart is with you.
Itās normal to be anxious and tearful! Just do one step at a time, donāt overthink it too much. Step by step you will get through it all and emerge without this unwanted growth and heal again.
I wish you the best luck and send my best wishes!šš»
Mila,
Iāve been ācalmlyā dealing with it step by step for a while, but once finalized yesterday, that familiar anxiety attack came back.
Thank for the encouragement and best wishes!
Snow,
So sorry to hear the news. Your friends on the blog are here for you!
July 17th … that’s not too far off. Do you have someone to go with you? A trusted friend? Can one the GFs you mentioned come and visit?
How will this affect your work? What are you looking at in terms of recovery when you get home? (Answer the questions you want to. These are just the thoughts running through my head.)
“But after this morning, I began to get anxiety attacks and some tearsā¦ I guess itās normalāš¤”
Of course it’s normal. What you’re going through is very stressful.
Lady Marcia, thank you for asking and your spiritual support!
Yes, most logistical arrangements have been made for postal surgery (bigger and longer than my thyroidectomy). My lady friend will have her surgery done this Friday on 11th, so Iāll be with her a little bit (she has a loving hubby), but not the way around. Weāll commiserate.
I have 6 weeks to recover until the first day back to work. But if 5 week radiation is needed, then it might be a problem because it affects a small person badly. It can only begin 4 weeks after the surgery.
Sis, letās keep āshowing offā on the āstageā, my mind needs to get distractedā¦.
Snow,
“My lady friend will have her surgery done this Friday on 11th, so Iāll be with her a little bit (she has a loving hubby), but not the way around. Weāll commiserate.”
I’m glad you’ll be able to be there for her. I’m just tossing out thoughts in my head as I’m writing this. I’d like someone to be there for you. Of course you can post on here if you’re feeling up to it. I’m sure the LWL friend group, including me, wants updates as to how you’re feeling and doing after the surgery.
“I have 6 weeks to recover until the first day back to work. But if 5 week radiation is needed, then it might be a problem because it affects a small person badly. It can only begin 4 weeks after the surgery.”
When will you know if you need the radiation? After they do more biopsies?
“Sis, letās keep āshowing offā on the āstageā, my mind needs to get distractedā¦.”
I was going to ask you that. Do you still want to post “on the stage”? I can of course do that. But I didn’t want you to feel I was rambling on “on the stage” and not addressing this much bigger concern.
Options:
1.) Post on both “the stage” and about health concerns;
2.) Post only “on the stage”;
3.) Post mostly “on the stage” and a little bit about health concerns.
Lady Marcia,
āIām glad youāll be able to be there for her. ā
My Lady friend does not want me to be there in person, her operation estimated time is 12 hours. Her husband will be there, and she only wants FaceTime with me when she feels ready. Sheās stronger than me ā Sheās not a limerent! š
āIām just tossing out thoughts in my head as Iām writing this. Iād like someone to be there for you. ā
Youāre soooooo sweetā¼ļø š« š. I have someone for me for seven days in total, who would bring Mom to me if Iām up to see herā¦ Afterwards, Iāll ORDER Mom around in my home. But her cooking is terrible ā once my dog, Friday, refused to eat her cooked food āļø
āOf course you can post on here if youāre feeling up to it. Iām sure the LWL friend group, including me, wants updates as to how youāre feeling and doing after the surgery.ā
Unlike last time when I had thyroidectomy during the lockdown ā no one was allowed to be with me. Unable to move my neck, I dropped the emergency button on the floor during a high infection fever at night and couldnāt even get any nurse for hours. This time, I have real people, visible and invisible, with me; I should NOT worried except during night.
Iām with the biggest health group in the city, with free wifi (not in every hospital system). I donāt know how Iād feel afterwards but will try to update you guys if I am physically able. Iād be partially immobile for days.
Last time, I had the Guru surgeon (79) in the thyroid field. This time, my surgeon is somewhat young (in her 30s), but yesterday she told me that her supervisor would be with her on the table, which made me feel a bit better. My case has a complication and is bigger than the last time.
āWhen will you know if you need the radiation? After they do more biopsies?ā
Yes. Like last time, theyād have plenty of samples to biopsy to see whether it has spread or to what extend. Radiation therapy is what I fear most, itās like a laser beam drying you 10 minutes everyday for 5 weeks, while most people canāt eat during the process with bad nauseasā¦. Iād be truly like a dried š , no more šµļø š± š ā¼ļø Then I have to work, performing in bunch of ābabyā students! ā¹ļø
āI was going to ask you that. Do you still want to post āon the stageā? I can of course do that. But I didnāt want you to feel I was rambling on āon the stageā and not addressing this much bigger concern.ā
Thank you so much for your thorough consideration! š« I would not even mention this idiot surgery (I knew it by 6/3 but not its serious implication) if I did NOT realize that my tone of our last discussion began feeling irritated and my anxiety attacks already came back. I donāt want to sound like vexed āon the stageā. Now, if I do sound so, youād know whyā¦.
But I also know myself well that if my mind is not distracted by or focused on something intellectual or artistic, my anxiety about the surgery would probably go banana soonā¦.
āOptions:
1.) Post on both āthe stageā and about health concerns;
2.) Post only āon the stageā;
3.) Post mostly āon the stageā and a little bit about health concerns.ā
3āļøI will do it when I feel like it, maybe a little piece at a time.
Again, Lady š š« ! I so appreciate your caring concerns hereā¦ š„°
Lady Snow,
“Her husband will be there, and she only wants FaceTime with me when she feels ready.”
How do you feel about that?
“Youāre soooooo sweetā¼ļø”
I’m sweet to people who are sweet to me. š
“I have someone for me for seven days in total, who would bring Mom to me if Iām up to see herā¦ Afterwards, Iāll ORDER Mom around in my home. But her cooking is terrible ā once my dog, Friday, refused to eat her cooked food āļø”
So your mother will help if you need her?
“Unlike last time when I had thyroidectomy during the lockdown ā no one was allowed to be with me. Unable to move my neck, I dropped the emergency button on the floor during a high infection fever at night and couldnāt even get any nurse for hours.”
That sounds awful. Were you in pain?
“This time, I have real people, visible and invisible, with me; I should NOT worried except during night.”
Are you talking about when you are back home after the hospital?
“I donāt know how Iād feel afterwards but will try to update you guys if I am physically able. Iād be partially immobile for days.”
Ok.
“This time, my surgeon is somewhat young (in her 30s), but yesterday she told me that her supervisor would be with her on the table, which made me feel a bit better. My case has a complication and is bigger than the last time.”
I’m glad you have both of them on your team.
“Radiation therapy is what I fear most, itās like a laser beam drying you 10 minutes everyday for 5 weeks, while most people canāt eat during the process with bad nauseasā¦. ”
I hope you don’t need radiation therapy.
“Thank you so much for your thorough consideration! š« I would not even mention this idiot surgery (I knew it by 6/3 but not its serious implication) if I did NOT realize that my tone of our last discussion began feeling irritated and my anxiety attacks already came back.”
I’m glad you told the blog members. Aren’t you glad you told us?
[3.) Post mostly āon the stageā and a little bit about health concerns.ā]
“3āļøI will do it when I feel like it, maybe a little piece at a time.”
Duly noted. š
“Again, Lady š š« ! I so appreciate your caring concerns hereā¦ š„°”
š
Lady Marcia,
Before waking up, I dreamt we carried out our conversation in some aspects, but itās a kind of mess to be remembered clearly. Perhaps itās a result of only responding a part of your long post. I normally complete a task in one go before putting it down for another time ā one trait of the annoying perfectionism.
[Her husband will be there, and she only wants FaceTime with me when she feels ready.ā
How do you feel about that?]
Iām totally fine with it, I respect her wishes; sheāll be in an intensive care for a couple of days and her loving husband and sister would be around her full-time. Sheās a kind of woman who wouldnāt see others if not looking okay or feeling good. Despite I like her a lot and she has taken me to her house in Cape Cod twice, I know Iām not her inner-circle gf. Sometime, we don’tā speak from 3-6 months. Also as I mentioned, our conversations do not go very deep, not nearly as mine with some of you here.
āSo your mother will help if you need her?ā
Yes. 24/7 without complaints ā blood-kinship acts. Iāll have to do it for her down the road. She wanted to help more in my last surgery, but she was unable to do things the way I wanted. She also tended to be more restless, so I sent her home daily 3 blocks away. I have extra a ready bed in another room.
āThat sounds awful. Were you in pain?ā
Lying too flat, my stomach was bloated like a balloon that wanted to explode, and I could not move my ālockedā neck or body, thatās the worst night I ever had in my entire life. I noticed that emergency button ā a life saver, has a string to dangle it on the recovering bedside nowadays.
āAre you talking about when you are back home after the hospital?ā
More at home. Momās hearing is terrible even with a personalized hearing Aid. So Iād be texting/calling her phone in the other room, if in need.
āIām glad you told the blog members. Arenāt you glad you told us?ā
Iām more than glad to have told you š» š» š» buddiesā¼ļø I was more concerned about that 1~5% risk, if it takes place (knocking the wood), no one is going to tell you what will have happened for the rest of your life. That would be rude and cruel, isnāt it š¤, considering how much collective and individual verbal helps and wisdom youāve given me āļø
Iāll have to get used to this much of kind, sweet pampering from you š» ! You have no ideas that as kids, how we were trained not to fuss or complain even when we were sick. We were told to endure pains, physical or mental, to show our strength or endurance.
I remember each time I cried over penicillin injection on my butt (awfully painful but faster effective), Mom commented that I was good for nothing; Dad immediately cuddled me and read that annoying story of āMulanā (like your Joan of Arc), to tell me how brave she was. Occasionally, my girlfriends came to sit with me with fresh fruits. ā you see how the past ālost timeā is brought to ānow and hereā!
Rarely/no sympathy cards with just words, there was no such a tradition. Letter writing was/is big YES š Words without accompanying actions are considered cheap over there, unless itās a serious promise or an oath.
But Sister š š, I highly appreciate your caring words and questionsā¼ļø š«
Lady Snow,
“I normally complete a task in one go before putting it down for another time ā one trait of the annoying perfectionism.”
You have a lot going on right now. No need to be perfect.
Now, if you want to focus on my posts overs MJ’s … I have no problem with that. š
“Iām totally fine with it, I respect her wishes; sheāll be in an intensive care for a couple of days and her loving husband and sister would be around her full-time. Sheās a kind of woman who wouldnāt see others if not looking okay or feeling good.”
I understand. It’s obviously her choice. But I don’t get, and never will, why it always has to be family and/or partner who steps up in those positions.
“Despite I like her a lot and she has taken me to her house in Cape Cod twice, I know Iām not her inner-circle gf.”
Ah, ok.
“Yes. 24/7 without complaints ā blood-kinship acts. Iāll have to do it for her down the road. She wanted to help more in my last surgery, but she was unable to do things the way I wanted. She also tended to be more restless, so I sent her home daily 3 blocks away. I have extra a ready bed in another room.”
I’m glad she will step up to help you. I know you’ve written she is selfish and has her own health issues, so I didn’t know if she would/could help.
“Lying too flat, my stomach was bloated like a balloon that wanted to explode, and I could not move my ālockedā neck or body, thatās the worst night I ever had in my entire life. I noticed that emergency button ā a life saver, has a string to dangle it on the recovering bedside nowadays.”
That sounds awful. I’m assuming you weren’t able to sleep or sleep well.
“Momās hearing is terrible even with a personalized hearing Aid. So Iād be texting/calling her phone in the other room, if in need.”
Well, that’s kind of annoying, but at least she can respond to the calls or texts.
“Iām more than glad to have told you š» š» š» buddiesā¼ļø ”
Everyone needs support. They do. We Westerners (another of our faults!) underestimate the need for community.
“I was more concerned about that 1~5% risk, if it takes place (knocking the wood), no one is going to tell you what will have happened for the rest of your life. ”
I’m sorry. I’m not following you. Is this the 1-5% risk it has spread ?
“Iāll have to get used to this much of kind, sweet pampering from you š» ! You have no ideas that as kids, how we were trained not to fuss or complain even when we were sick. ”
It’s fine to want to be fussed over sometimes! š
“you see how the past ālost timeā is brought to ānow and hereā!”
We can never get away from our past entirely. But I hope you can see now that your LWL friends are the “now and here”!
But Sister š š, I highly appreciate your caring words and questionsā¼ļø š«
š
Lady Marcia š š«,
āI understand. Itās obviously her choice. But I donāt get, and never will, why it always has to be family and/or partner who steps up in those positions.ā
Of course you know that oneās SO or family members, in most cases, are more important than other friends. The time of their being together, the emotional and physical connections, legal and financial responsibilities are much BIGGER than any intimate friends. Friends canāt sign any legal documents should they be needed in an emergency.
āIām glad she will step up to help you. I know youāve written she is selfish and has her own health issues, so I didnāt know if she would/could help.ā
Thatās what I told you about the blood-tie: we could be selfish in daily living, emotional distanced, or have our own health issues, but we will provide acts of service in crucial situations as much as we are able. Mom just texted saying that sheāll be in the hospital on 17th, and will help me as much as I need afterwards, that I can be assured for this coming ordeal!
Iām touched. As I also said before, sheās been trying to āpamperā/please me in the last year or soā¦. Sheās a retired surgeon, so still has more common medical knowledge, although sheās not a good nurse (there used to be tons of nurses orbiting her professionally)
āThat sounds awful. Iām assuming you werenāt able to sleep or sleep well.ā
Your assumption is correct. I tried to roll from left to right and back and forth, but could do little. Also, my vocal core was injured a bit during that surgery (had to do another small surgery for it 4 months later), so I could not make a sound to call a nurse. Finally, I gave up and just endured the torture in tears for more than 1.5 hours.
āEveryone needs support. They do. We Westerners (another of our faults!) underestimate the need for community.ā
Yes, the LwL, a š» community has been quite extraordinary, the way beyond my expectations. For a long while, I thought it was a wall for posts and selfish, uncontrollable limerent whining ā¦ not knowing/sensing there are genuine caring human hearts beating inside the LwL Wall. š
āIām sorry. Iām not following you. Is this the 1-5% risk it has spread ?ā
I donāt want to scare you, but you have to keep the possibility in mind ā 1~5% risk that I will NOT wake up from the surgical table, (My artificial thyroid hormone level is a bit out of range, which could affect an anesthesia process, and other known and unknowns factors) . The possibility of spread is 30~40% so far, and I pray for other 60~70% to dominateāļø
āItās fine to want to be fussed over sometimes! šā
I need some time to process such a permission for fuss, I never had it in the past. I kind of feel selfish or spoiled.š«
āWe can never get away from our past entirely. But I hope you can see now that your LWL friends are the ānow and hereā!ā
Reallyāš¤ Where are your face and smilesā Can I hold your handā
A tough question to your leadership; if you have seven days left to live in this world, what would you doāā
Lady Snow,
“Of course you know that oneās SO or family members, in most cases, are more important than other friends. The time of their being together, the emotional and physical connections, legal and financial responsibilities are much BIGGER than any intimate friends. Friends canāt sign any legal documents should they be needed in an emergency.”
Yep. Which is why I don’t try to make close friends anymore. It’s a contradiction in terms. “Close” and “friends.”
“Thatās what I told you about the blood-tie: we could be selfish in daily living, emotional distanced, or have our own health issues, but we will provide acts of service in crucial situations as much as we are able.”
You’re lucky you have that. I’m under no illusion my family will do that.
“Mom just texted saying that sheāll be in the hospital on 17th, and will help me as much as I need afterwards, that I can be assured for this coming ordeal!”
I’m glad she did that. My opinion of her is softening a little. š
“As I also said before, sheās been trying to āpamperā/please me in the last year or soā¦. ”
Glad she’s stepping up.
“Finally, I gave up and just endured the torture in tears for more than 1.5 hours.”
That sounds torturous.
“I donāt want to scare you, but you have to keep the possibility in mind ā 1~5% risk that I will NOT wake up from the surgical table”
Oh, goodness. No wonder you’re stressing.
“The possibility of spread is 30~40% so far, and I pray for other 60~70% to dominateāļø”
I’m sorry, Snow. How are you processing all of this? It’s a lot.
“I need some time to process such a permission for fuss, I never had it in the past. I kind of feel selfish or spoiled.š« ”
I had a good friend (she passed away) who said she liked to be fussed over. Not every day, but maybe on her birthday or something. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. That was her thing. That was her love language. I could make a fuss over her every now and then. š And you’re going through a tough time. So it’s a fuss you will experience! š
[āWe can never get away from our past entirely. But I hope you can see now that your LWL friends are the ānow and hereā!ā]
“Reallyāš¤ Where are your face and smilesā Can I hold your handā”
I’m not sure what you mean here.
“if you have seven days left to live in this world, what would you doāā”
Try to find out where Johnny Deep lives. Eat myself into a sugar coma. š
Lady Marcia,
āOh, goodness. No wonder youāre stressing.ā
To be responsible for those who would be left behind, one needs to consider about that odd 1~5% risk, what if it happensā¦ I did it alone in 2020, preparing for the worst; now again, in 7 daysā¦
[āThe possibility of spread is 30~40% so far, and I pray for other 60~70% to dominateāļøā
Iām sorry, Snow. How are you processing all of this? Itās a lot.]
I donāt know HOW to process it, the results came out very fast, one after anotherā¦. What am I supposed to think or feelā
I kind of felt numb for a while, but a bit more āawakeā now, after fussing it here and taking some logistical measurement to deal with any possibilitiesā¦š
[āI need some time to process such a permission for fuss, I never had it in the past. I kind of feel selfish or spoiled.š« ā
I had a good friend (she passed away) who said she liked to be fussed over. Not every day, but maybe on her birthday or something. I donāt think thereās anything wrong with that. That was her thing. That was her love language. I could make a fuss over her every now and then. š And youāre going through a tough time. So itās a fuss you will experience! š ]
I really need to sense what happens inside me with this much of fussesā¦ š§ I need to be more of a Westerner ānow and hereāāļø
[āReallyāš¤ Where are your face and smilesā Can I hold your handāā
Iām not sure what you mean here.]
I have never seen your face or hands, or anything realistic, except silent voices on the screen or inside my head or heart ā¦ so SURREAL!
I wish I could hold your real hand along that scary tableā¦š
Lady Snow,
“To be responsible for those who would be left behind, one needs to consider about that odd 1~5% risk, what if it happensā¦ I did it alone in 2020, preparing for the worst; now again, in 7 daysā¦”
“I donāt know HOW to process it, the results came out very fast, one after anotherā¦. What am I supposed to think or feelā”
“I kind of felt numb for a while, but a bit more āawakeā now, after fussing it here and taking some logistical measurement to deal with any possibilitiesā¦š”
Gosh, I don’t know how you’re supposed to think or feel. I can certainly understand feeling numb. Or totally overwhelmed. I might take a bunch of pills to sleep for several hours so I wouldn’t have to think about it.
“I really need to sense what happens inside me with this much of fussesā¦ š§ I need to be more of a Westerner ānow and hereāāļø”
You don’t really “need” to do anything. So in your COO, you wouldn’t be fussed over? The family would just be making arrangements to help ?
“I wish I could hold your real hand along that scary tableā¦š”
If you want, I can give you my email address. It doesn’t have my name in it. I could post it here. No pressure to do that if you’re not comfortable.
Lady Marcia,
āGosh, I donāt know how youāre supposed to think or feel.ā
Thatās a right answer for anyone in my shoes! There is no set of things that one is supposed to think or feel; it all depends on how the patient look at life in general and the situation they have unfortunately fell into.
āI can certainly understand feeling numb. ā
I was just numb only for a day or two but probably more in denial. I genuinely had a fun/giggly time to guard your three dudes in the LwL prison and watched them trying all sorts of tricks to get out of your Ladyshipās grips ā the best LwL reality show! You have no ideas how much š š š š š š, although my powder room never got cleaned..
āOr totally overwhelmed. ā
Iām not overwhelmed; I know my current lot, its worst or best scenario and what I can or canāt do in reality ā nothing much medically, itās in doctorsā hands, but something mentally, Iām a 95% Stoicāļøš.
āI might take a bunch of pills to sleep for several hours so I wouldnāt have to think about it.ā
No I never take any unnecessary pills, although my sleeps nowadays lasts from 2.5-5,5 hours at a time. So I nap anytime I feel like it. My OCD mind ruminate about the surgical day, but Iām not terribly vexed, nor sad, self-pitied, regretful, depressedā¦. Except tired for whatever reasons.
āYou donāt really āneedā to do anything. ā
I need to get logistical things in order like the last time in 2020. Most of them are taken care, but Iāll update them in the next couple of days.
āSo in your COO, you wouldnāt be fussed over?ā
Nopeā¼ļø Whatās the pointāļø Fussing canāt change anything factual, but makes one worry more by fanning and energizing the situation in the head ā like some limerents here repeatedly going on and on about their LO or LE.
ā The family would just be making arrangements to help ?ā
Yes, they avoid chatting about feared diseases but would move mountain to do what you need or want them to help out. In some cases, doctors and family members get together to cover up the fetal disease to the patient, e.g. the movie āThe Farewellā.
ā Iām glad you brought it up and I hope that talking about it on here has helped you.ā
As I said in the last post, my my news is for your sake, not my own (due to that 1~5% risk). Talking about it has TOUCHED my heart but taken away my laughers of over one month awayā¦
āIf you want, I can give you my email address. It doesnāt have my name in it. I could post it here. No pressure to do that if youāre not comfortable.ā
Oh, Sis! š¤ Thank you so much for such a big, supportive offer š«. But Iām really fine, always strong and tough in dealing with life adversities, beyond most of you here could have imaginedā¦.
Iāll talk later on the state! š” šŖ š”1
Lady Snow,
“Thatās a right answer for anyone in my shoes! There is no set of things that one is supposed to think or feel; it all depends on how the patient look at life in general and the situation they have unfortunately fell into.”
Yes, agree. People will respond in all different kinds of ways. Some may not want to talk about it and just want to continue to live as usual up until they go to the hospital.
“I was just numb only for a day or two but probably more in denial. I genuinely had a fun/giggly time to guard your three dudes in the LwL prison and watched them trying all sorts of tricks to get out of your Ladyshipās grips ā the best LwL reality show! You have no ideas how much š š š š š š, although my powder room never got cleaned..”
I’m glad you had a good time with the dudes! The hooligans actually contributed something positive! š As to your power room … I think you’ll be waiting a while for that to get cleaned. The promise of cleaning your power room was like those compliments by French men …. empty, empty, empty! All words! š
“I know my current lot, its worst or best scenario and what I can or canāt do in reality ā nothing much medically, itās in doctorsā hands, but something mentally, Iām a 95% Stoicāļøš.”
How does the Stoic philosophy help with your health news? (I’m assuming it does.)
“No I never take any unnecessary pills”
I try not to but I have trouble sleeping.
“although my sleeps nowadays lasts from 2.5-5,5 hours at a time.”
That’s about like me. Five to 6 hours, if I’m lucky. Even with the pills.
“So I nap anytime I feel like it.”
And you can still fall asleep at night if you nap?
“Except tired for whatever reasons.”
Stress?
“I need to get logistical things in order like the last time in 2020. Most of them are taken care, but Iāll update them in the next couple of days.”
I meant you’re not required to respond in any way. (see first question above)
“Fussing canāt change anything factual, but makes one worry more by fanning and energizing the situation in the head ā like some limerents here repeatedly going on and on about their LO or LE.”
It won’t change anything but I think it can make you feel better. I don’t see being fussed over as a negative thing. You’re going through something, and people circle around and support you.
“Yes, they avoid chatting about feared diseases but would move mountain to do what you need or want them to help out. ”
I’m not in the situation, so I can’t definitively tell you how I’d react, but I’m not a fan of not talking about things. This big issue is just sitting there, filling the air, and no one is acknowledging it. It feels weird to me and some kind of denial.
“In some cases, doctors and family members get together to cover up the fetal disease to the patient, e.g. the movie āThe Farewellā.”
I’m not a fan of that. The patient needs to know and the patient gets to decide what (if anything) the family is told. I don’t have a lot of control in this world, but my medical information is mine and mine to do with as I please.
“As I said in the last post, my my news is for your sake, not my own (due to that 1~5% risk).”
I’m glad you told us. š
“Talking about it has TOUCHED my heart but taken away my laughers of over one month awayā¦”
You’ve still had some laughs, though? With the reptiles? š
“Oh, Sis! š¤ Thank you so much for such a big, supportive offer š«. ”
I’d be willing to do that at some point. Doesn’t have to be right this second. To become less of a ghost. š
Lady Marcia,
āThe promise of cleaning your power room was like those compliments by French men ā¦. empty, empty, empty! All words! š
Wow, Sis, you titled my āpowderā room to āpowerā room š³ , I guess a ladyās powder room could be very powerful with all its hidden qualitiesā¦ š§
āHow does the Stoic philosophy help with your health news? (Iām assuming it does.)ā
Knowing whatās within your control, what is not ā the fundamental Stoic principle. A possibly terminal disease is definitely beyond our control, so worrying or screaming about it useless, and probably produce more negatively affects on oneās spirit. On the other hand, clearly accepting it as an uncontrollable Fate, then trying to make remaining days like usual would help one remain calm at least.
āI try not to but I have trouble sleeping.ā
If you know how to meditate, then it takes 5-10 minutes to fall (back) to sleep. Meditation soothes and calm down sympathetic system.
āAnd you can still fall asleep at night if you nap?ā
No. Thatās why you see my posts are posted in all sorts of odd hours. It doesnāt matter when to take a nap, when Iām on vacation. I donāt follow rigid day and night, 24 hours regime.
āIt wonāt change anything but I think it can make you feel better. I donāt see being fussed over as a negative thing. ā
If you fuss over a thing, that thing then constantly stay in your head; fussing gives it energy, making it more alive in the head. And if this thing is negative or fear-inducing, like Limerence or a fatal disease, then it can be strengthened by fussing over.
āYouāre going through something, and people circle around and support you.ā
Talking about this thing moderately sometimes helps. Venting could reduce inner stress to a certain point; but repeatedly venting WILL strengthen the stress, such as venting out resentment.
There are two different therapeutic approaches in terms of reducing negative emotions. Myself found distracting the stressed mind by doing something positive, such as making tasteful jokes, can greatly help reduce my worries.
ābut Iām not a fan of not talking about things. This big issue is just sitting there, filling the air, and no one is acknowledging it. It feels weird to me and some kind of denial.ā
I didnāt say not to acknowledging a big issue, but how to talk about it, without adding more worries to the sufferer, is a form of āartā. Ton of wishful, blissful, empty words would not reduce specific stress; on the other hand, rationally analyzing its possible causes, symptoms, possible treatments and their various side effects, could activate oneās logical mind, which would then reduce oneās irrational moods, by intelligent DISTRACTION.
āIām not a fan of that. The patient needs to know and the patient gets to decide what (if anything) the family is told. I donāt have a lot of control in this world, but my medical information is mine and mine to do with as I please.ā
Iām not a fan of that, either. I was just trying to show you why there are still a lot of COO folks who would choose not know the ugly medical truths, in order to avoid declining in spirit, which they believe would worsen the patientās actual sickness. Without a natural religion, they believe the power of positive spirit.
āYouāve still had some laughs, though? With the reptiles? šā
I still do! Sophisticated humors š š , are the best medicine for spirit, physical illness, and that bloody Limerence!
Never thought that (š šŖ£ š¦) Sir š¦ could be so cheekily funny (he used to š too much), as well as the shameless Sir š ā SO in one arm, LFF in another š. ( š² has gone missing in the free Galaxy, abounding his grandsonās fun in LwL dungeon!) I really hope they all heartily laughed, too, by orbiting your Ladyship and your āļø āļø āļø kingdom š š šā¦.
āIād be willing to do that at some point. Doesnāt have to be right this second. To become less of a ghost. šā
I never wanted to be a š» , while with no/little fear to lose anythingā¦ Intuitively sensing at this moment, I think we have the hoped chance after 17th to do thatā¼ļø
āSir š¦ clings and crawls on the LwL wallsāāØ
And long, long may my reptilian brother continue to!!
[āYouāve still had some laughs, though? With the reptiles? šā]
“Never thought that (š šŖ£ š¦) Sir š¦ could be so cheekily funny (he used to š too much), as well as the shameless Sir š ā SO in one arm, LFF in another š.”
Now now, Matron Snow š°ā³ļø. You have to give the ‘magic’ insight from my days spent in solitary contemplation some time, to have the desired effect š¤Ŗš
Miss Snow,
“Wow, Sis, you titled my āpowderā room to āpowerā room š³ , I guess a ladyās powder room could be very powerful with all its hidden qualitiesā¦ š§”
That was a Freudian slip. But yes, a powDer room could be a poWer room … where a woman transforms into her other self, her feminine character.
“Knowing whatās within your control, what is not ā the fundamental Stoic principle. ”
Very little is within our control. Unfortunately.
Another thing I forgot to mention … what I do as the patient with medical news is MY CHOICE as well. I can do whatever I want. I could choose to do nothing. Or part of what the doctors recommend. It’s my body. It’s my choice. And if the doctor presses me or gets hostile, I’d go to another doctor.
“If you know how to meditate, then it takes 5-10 minutes to fall (back) to sleep. Meditation soothes and calm down sympathetic system.”
Well, I sometimes do meditation, but not any you approve of. š
“It doesnāt matter when to take a nap, when Iām on vacation. I donāt follow rigid day and night, 24 hours regime.”
Gotcha
“If you fuss over a thing, that thing then constantly stay in your head; fussing gives it energy, making it more alive in the head. And if this thing is negative or fear-inducing, like Limerence or a fatal disease, then it can be strengthened by fussing over.”
Or what we focus on expands. But there’s another theory … what we resists, persists. So if we ignore something, that can be bad, too.
“Talking about this thing moderately sometimes helps. Venting could reduce inner stress to a certain point; but repeatedly venting WILL strengthen the stress, such as venting out resentment.
There are two different therapeutic approaches in terms of reducing negative emotions. Myself found distracting the stressed mind by doing something positive, such as making tasteful jokes, can greatly help reduce my worries.”
I did one time get some potential really bad news while in the hospital. They had to do more tests. It was very bad. And I just lied there in denial. I was sure they wrong. And I got lucky: It wasn’t as bad as they originally thought. So I know what it is to sit with that, but only for a short time.
” rationally analyzing its possible causes, symptoms, possible treatments and their various side effects, could activate oneās logical mind, which would then reduce oneās irrational moods, by intelligent DISTRACTION.”
As I wrote, I was in this situation once for a very short time. Maybe a matter of hours. I ‘m trying to remember. But getting too rational … That might irritate me. Hard to say. Overly rational can get on my nerves in general.
“Iām not a fan of that, either. I was just trying to show you why there are still a lot of COO folks who would choose not know the ugly medical truths, in order to avoid declining in spirit, which they believe would worsen the patientās actual sickness. ”
If the patient CHOOSES not to know … that is their choice. Although I don’t know how that would be handled. The doctor comes in and says … “Do you want to know all the details?” How would the doctor ever know in advance not to give all the details? I’m assuming if it’s a serious health issue, the patient has been sent to specialists and must have some idea things are serious.
“I still do! Sophisticated humors š š , are the best medicine for spirit, physical illness, and that bloody Limerence!”
I don’t know if I’d use the word “sophisticated” … but, sure. š
“Intuitively sensing at this moment, I think we have the hoped chance after 17th to do thatā¼ļø”
Fabulous. We’ll move out of the ghost world when you’ve recovered! š
Marcia,
āThat was a Freudian slip. But yes, a powDer room could be a poWer room ā¦ where a woman transforms into her other self, her feminine character.ā
A poWerful Freudian slip indeed, with sounding reasons and big plausibilityā¦ š
āVery little is within our control. Unfortunately.ā
Thatās why Stoic practice is so much neededāļø
āAnother thing I forgot to mention ā¦ what I do as the patient with medical news is MY CHOICE as well. I can do whatever I want. I could choose to do nothing. Or part of what the doctors recommend. Itās my body. Itās my choice. And if the doctor presses me or gets hostile, Iād go to another doctor.ā
Sounds very American, sometimes with irrational insistence on oneās rights at a cost of one own peril. In medical matters, a 2nd or 3rd opinion should and NEED be ALWAYS sorted, regardless the primary doctorās attitudes. Any professionalās knowledge and experiences are limited, sometime, itās just knowledgeable GUESS! ā what’s happening with my case now.
āWell, I sometimes do meditation, but not any you approve of. šā
Itās not a matter of what I approve or not, itās my experience after trying many other modes of meditations. There is physiological reason, not yet approved by the hardcore science through data, that certain types of meditation and energy-medicine from the East work in preventative health field. The West is still largely ignorant in this field, period! France, perhaps some European countries, is doing better through their refined herbal medicine (effects of homoeopathies here are still questionable).
ā Or what we focus on expands. But thereās another theory ā¦ what we resists, persists. So if we ignore something, that can be bad, too.ā
I donāt ignore or resist anything in health issues. Growing up with a surgeon, whose dinner topics often focused on telling you all sorts of health demises/woes, as anecdotes and a ānormā, I am used to look at the possible worst in any medical condition and keeps it in mind. Thatās how I was ātrainedā to be Stoic (without knowing what Stoicism is) by Mom. You might claim that I sometime feel paranoid, but Iām not (not visually facing those demises/woes), my habitually pessimistic Mom was and still IS.
āI did one time get some potential really bad news while in the hospital. They had to do more tests. It was very bad. And I just lied there in denial. I was sure they wrong. And I got lucky: It wasnāt as bad as they originally thought. So I know what it is to sit with that, but only for a short time.ā
Well with my mindset, I would assume the worst and prepare for it mentally. Right now, Iām taking all sorts of cautious measurements for that 1% risk to possibly happen: I phoned the youngest cousin living in town (a lawyer in practice), and instructed her what to do just in case (and wrote them down on paperā¦), she came in yesterday and dined with us. One should NEVER leave a risk to chances in realistic matters, regarding another personās (of your care) wellbeing.
āAs I wrote, I was in this situation once for a very short time. Maybe a matter of hours. I ām trying to remember. But getting too rational ā¦ That might irritate me. Hard to say. Overly rational can get on my nerves in general.ā
In logistical, particular medical and legal, matters, one has to be 120% rationalāļøBeing emotional only hurts oneself and those be-cared, which is just unwise. But majority of people in the both worlds, with limited medical knowledge, tend to get too worried or panic. Personally, Iām a bit privileged to grow up with an extremely rational surgeon.
āIf the patient CHOOSES not to know ā¦ that is their choice. ā
So if an āignorantā patient chooses to commit a suicide before any treatments, the doctor should just let the patient do it? Letās not get into that ethical issue ā the assistant death practiced in some European country.
āAlthough I donāt know how that would be handled. The doctor comes in and says ā¦ āDo you want to know all the details?ā How would the doctor ever know in advance not to give all the details? Iām assuming if itās a serious health issue, the patient has been sent to specialists and must have some idea things are serious.ā
If you watch the movie, āThe Farewellā, youād know how it is done in some Asian countries, with their cultural mindset. I had my students watch it and write paper as a part of my class.
āSophisticated humors š š , are the best medicine for spirit, physical illness, and that bloody Limerence!ā
āI donāt know if Iād use the word āsophisticatedā ā¦ but, sure. šā
When I say āsophisticatedā, I mean words themselves are not jokingly tacky, letās say making fun of body parts, but the readerās imaginations aroused by the words make it funny ā¦.
In our last, naturally-spun āreality showā, I was picturing (somewhat in cartoonish images) cheeky Sir š¦ clinging on a wall, chatting with slithering Sir š , courteous Sir š„ entertaining Miss š ā¦ in the LwL prison, with the chuckling Grandpa š² peeking in through the windowsā¦ š¤ š¤ š š. It does not matter whether it was true or not, the imagination itself produces laughters š š š āļø
āFabulous. Weāll move out of the ghost world when youāve recovered! šā
I would only take emails from DrL with real names. Please understandā¦. š«
It takes two to tango huhā¦š·
https://youtube.com/shorts/z5y1eiIb4YA?si=Mu0zFi1Qotp2rVg8
Snow,
“I would only take emails from DrL with real names. Please understandā¦. š«”
No, I don’t understand. I also have an email address with my real name but I’m not going to post it on here. That attaches my real name to all of my posts. I’m not comfortable doing that.
Snow,
“Sounds very American, sometimes with irrational insistence on oneās rights at a cost of one own peril.”
But it’s my decision if I want the peril. It’s my body to do with what I want.
“Any professionalās knowledge and experiences are limited, sometime, itās just knowledgeable GUESS! ā whatās happening with my case now.”
Yes, and doctors are not God. They are just people with their own limitations and biases.
“There is physiological reason, not yet approved by the hardcore science through data, that certain types of meditation and energy-medicine from the East work in preventative health field. The West is still largely ignorant in this field, period! ”
Yes, the West sees this as “woo woo” and unscientific.
“Growing up with a surgeon, whose dinner topics often focused on telling you all sorts of health demises/woes, as anecdotes and a ānormā, I am used to look at the possible worst in any medical condition and keeps it in mind. Thatās how I was ātrainedā to be Stoic (without knowing what Stoicism is)”
Gotcha. I grew up with people who didn’t question much of anything they were told. So I do. Not with everything. Something minor I probably wouldn’t.
“Well with my mindset, I would assume the worst and prepare for it mentally. ”
As I wrote, I’m not in the situation so I can’t definitively tell you what I would do.
“Right now, Iām taking all sorts of cautious measurements for that 1% risk to possibly happen:”
Gotcha. I’m guessing here, but I’m thinking I would probably roll the dice.
“One should NEVER leave a risk to chances in realistic matters, regarding another personās (of your care) wellbeing.”
Do you mean your mother’s care? Yes, that should be a consideration. I don’t have any dependents.
“But majority of people in the both worlds, with limited medical knowledge, tend to get too worried or panic.”
I don’t suggest panicking. But I’d probably the role the dice.
“So if an āignorantā patient chooses to commit a suicide before any treatments, the doctor should just let the patient do it?”
You wrote that some people in COO don’t want to know. I was responding to that. But, yes, if the patient IS fully informed and chooses to do nothing, that is his/her right.
“If you watch the movie, āThe Farewellā, youād know how it is done in some Asian countries, with their cultural mindset. I had my students watch it and write paper as a part of my class.”
Years ago, a few generations ago, they used to do that in the U.S. Not fully inform the patient.
“It does not matter whether it was true or not, the imagination itself produces laughters š š š āļø”
As long as it’s making YOU laugh. š
Marcia,
āBut itās my decision if I want the peril. Itās my body to do with what I want.ā
Stressing oneās rights (no one is taking them away from you) above oneās physical wellbeing and safety is just beyond comprehension of COO mind, itās not wrong but UNWISE!
Thatās why there is a way more substance abuses/addictions in the West, while so little in the East (by proportion). Thatās why to some Asian š ā a stereotype, some Westerners lead their life in an unwise lifestyle ā with so many choices and rights, they make unhealthy or trashy choices, harmful for themselves or beloved onesāļø
āDo you mean your motherās care? Yes, that should be a consideration. I donāt have any dependents.ā
Mom is my biggest concern, not only due to her illiteracy in English, but her total dependence (on Dad) in logistical stuff in reality ā she never learned and still doesnāt know how to take cash out of a bank even in COO, while she could medically open up and sew a personās body together! How bizarre that isāļø
āI donāt suggest panicking. But Iād probably the role the dice.ā
Both Dad and Mom are extremely logical and want(ed) to be in control at least in oneās own capacity (largely incapable under the Red regime), so they did not role the rice and always prepared for the worst. Thatās how my mentality was trained while growing up with them.
āYou wrote that some people in COO donāt want to know. I was responding to that. But, yes, if the patient IS fully informed and chooses to do nothing, that is his/her right.ā
Choosing to do nothing unwisely is accepted by right, but attempting a suicide would still be āforbiddenā mostly.
[āIt does not matter whether it was true or not, the imagination itself produces laughters š š š āļøā
As long as itās making YOU laugh. š]
The psychological or spiritual power of imaginations, is beyond any words and fixed mindsetsā¦
Snow,
“Stressing oneās rights (no one is taking them away from you) above oneās physical wellbeing and safety is just beyond comprehension of COO mind, itās not wrong but UNWISE!”
But that’s MY choice. If I want to be unwise, that’s my choice.
” with so many choices and rights, they make unhealthy or trashy choices, harmful for themselves or beloved onesāļø”
Again, their choice. If someone wants to sit at home and drink all day long, that’s their choice. Just don’t endanger my life or anyone else’s and get behind the wheel of a car.
“Mom is my biggest concern, not only due to her illiteracy in English, but her total dependence (on Dad) in logistical stuff in reality ā she never learned and still doesnāt know how to take cash out of a bank even in COO, while she could medically open up and sew a personās body together! How bizarre that isāļø”
It’s bizarre but not uncommon. My grandparents’ marriage was similar. I don’t know if she could even put gas in her own car. He did all the “mechanical” stuff for her. Handled all the financial stuff.
IMO, “dependents” mean children under 18.
As adults, we (the collective “we”) have to be prepared that we may have to take care of ourselves.
“Choosing to do nothing unwisely is accepted by right, but attempting a suicide would still be āforbiddenā mostly.”
I don’t agree with that, either.
OMG … I watched the version of “Madame Bovary” I recommended. I have Amazon Prime .. and there is was! š I’d forgotten how steamy it is. The first guy she has an affair with (Rodolphe) takes her off into the forest (it’s clear they’re going to hook up) and tries to kiss her. She says (I’m paraphrasing), “You’re frightening me.” And he pushes her up against a tree and says, “I’m not frightening you at all.” He sure had her number! š
Marcia,
āBut thatās MY choice. If I want to be unwise, thatās my choice.ā
What are we talking about here? Who is going to stop/curb your choice of being unwise? You can choose anything harmful to yourself assuming others would not get hurt at the same time. š
āAgain, their choice. If someone wants to sit at home and drink all day long, thatās their choice. Just donāt endanger my life or anyone elseās and get behind the wheel of a car.ā
Youāre so American! If you donāt try to stop my self-harming behaviors, I would NOT consider you as my friend.
āIMO, ādependentsā mean children under 18.
As adults, we (the collective āweā) have to be prepared that we may have to take care of ourselves.ā
In COO and my life, dependents also include oneās ādisabledā parents.
āI donāt agree with that, either.ā
I can consider your choice as uncaring. Putting an absolute choice ahead of your beloved/be-cared wellbeing is āuncaringā.
OMG ā¦ I watched the version of āMadame Bovaryā I recommended. I have Amazon Prime .. and there is was! š Iād forgotten how steamy it is. The first guy she has an affair with (Rodolphe) takes her off into the forest (itās clear theyāre going to hook up) and tries to kiss her. She says (Iām paraphrasing), āYouāre frightening me.ā And he pushes her up against a tree and says, āIām not frightening you at all.ā He sure had her number! š
I would not let playboy Rodolpheās get hands on me, heās not a half of Miller who falls in with Ninās mind!
I think I was/am not a real limerent. Those steamy romantic scenes, without a genuine affectation, did/do not interest me. Emmaās vanity and boredom led her blink PA affairs and then to her final death. Yes, she has free choice to choose her own flashy romance, that add more miseries in her existence and dig her own grave. š¢
Snow,
“Youāre so American! If you donāt try to stop my self-harming behaviors, I would NOT consider you as my friend.”
Oh, my dear, I’m assuming you have not dealt with an addict.
“I can consider your choice as uncaring. Putting an absolute choice ahead of your beloved/be-cared wellbeing is āuncaringā.”
You and I have a very different family situations. I’m under no illusion my family would help me like yours if I got sick. I did not tell them when I had my health scare. I don’t think I owe them a discussion. Now, if I had an SO, yes, I would consider them.
“I would not let playboy Rodolpheās get hands on me, heās not a half of Miller who falls in with Ninās mind!”
Oh, I would. I think he’s hot. That actor. And I love the way he plays the role. He brings a patient to Emma’s husband. That’s when he first notices her. And then he later just shows up at her house. “I can’t stop thinking about you,” he says. “Does your husband have a cure?” He’s being sarcastic, but it’s sexy. And then he announces to her they will be lovers.
“Yes, she has free choice to choose her own flashy romance, that add more miseries in her existence and dig her own grave. š¢”
She’s extremely selfish. She’s not a likable character. She leaves her child motherless and her husband in debt.
But … you can see why she’s so bored. The husband has the imagination of a gnat.
Marcia,
āOh, my dear, Iām assuming you have not dealt with an addict.ā
I did with my xSOās alcohol addiction. After divorce (not before), he went AA and got rid of it and became a Christian.
āYou and I have a very different family situations. Iām under no illusion my family would help me like yours if I got sick. I did not tell them when I had my health scare. I donāt think I owe them a discussion. Now, if I had an SO, yes, I would consider them.ā
Your family sounds so cold, which is terribly not uncommon in this culture . It makes me feel sad for your family system. SO definitely should be involved in your caring system, as well as close friends and LFF.
āOh, I would. I think heās hot. That actor.ā
Which version you just watched? āHotā or not is on the beholderās eyes, your āhotā might be a āturnoffā for someone else. Being āhotā is rarely a sole factor for me to be attracted.
āAnd I love the way he plays the role. He brings a patient to Emmaās husband. Thatās when he first notices her. And then he later just shows up at her house. āI canāt stop thinking about you,ā he says. āDoes your husband have a cure?ā Heās being sarcastic, but itās sexy. And then he announces to her they will be lovers.ā
That sexy line would get me into a trouble! Flaubert is so brilliant to imagine those plots and lines on an isolated island for 5 yearsā¦. Itās based on a true story of his time; the news of her death only had three lines.
Now Sis, youāre ācorruptingā me with steamy sexy words/lines of a flaky LO š³ I need to šš»āāļø awayā¦
āSheās extremely selfish. Sheās not a likable character. She leaves her child motherless and her husband in debt.
But ā¦ you can see why sheās so bored. The husband has the imagination of a gnat.ā
And Emma could not divorce him and earn her own living! Itās Flaubertās genius to show an š tragic consequence of steamy affair /Limerence! š°
Snow,
“I did with my xSOās alcohol addiction. After divorce (not before), he went AA and got rid of it and became a Christian.”
Nobody gets rid of their addiction. It’s an ongoing, lifelong struggle, and you can’t make someone want to get help and get better.
“Your family sounds so cold, which is terribly not uncommon in this culture .”
They are.
” It makes me feel sad for your family system.”
I’ve just become a Stoic with them! Ha! I have no expectations. I’m just pleasantly surprised if they actually do anything.
“SO definitely should be involved in your caring system, as well as close friends and LFF.”
I can’t keep track of all your acronyms. š I don’t know what an LFF is. Limerence-Flavored Friend ? I don’t want one of those! š I probably wouldn’t expect too much of friends. That seems to be a losing proposition. Again, if they show up, I’m pleasantly surprised.
“Which version you just watched? ”
The 2000 version.
“āHotā or not is on the beholderās eyes, your āhotā might be a āturnoffā for someone else. Being āhotā is rarely a sole factor for me to be attracted.”
He’s an attractive guy, but it’s the way he plays the part.
“That sexy line would get me into a trouble! ”
It gets steamier. I think he’s taking off her shoes before anything much has happened and says (I’m paraphrasing), “I could terrify you, Emma.” And she says something like, “What if I want you to?” I have to get my smelling salts out for that one! š
“Flaubert is so brilliant to imagine those plots and lines on an isolated island for 5 years”
I don’t know if he wrote that line. Could have been the screenwriter.
“Now Sis, youāre ācorruptingā me with steamy sexy words/lines of a flaky LO š³ I need to šš»āāļø awayā¦”
It’s just a fictional story. No real man talks that like. š
“And Emma could not divorce him and earn her own living! Itās Flaubertās genius to show an š tragic consequence of steamy affair /Limerence! š°”
And to be so adept at writing such a complex female character. š
Marcia,
It works this way with email address:
1. You write an email to DrL and tell him that youād like to forward/send your email address to Snow.
2. I email him to say Iād like to RECEIVE the email address from Marcia. Then we can write to each other directly, without bothering DrL again.
By doing this, none of our emails with names would ever be shown anywhere in LwL.
Ciao, š«
Snow,
Ok. I honestly didn’t know you could do that. š
Marcia,
Youāll have to tell me first after you send in the request. Without my Ok to Receive message, Dr L would not do anything.
DrL is a matchmaker for the site! š
Snow,
“Youāll have to tell me first after you send in the request. Without my Ok to Receive message, Dr L would not do anything.”
Ok. I thought you wanted me to wait until you were all recovered ?
Marcia,
Yes, please wait at least after 7/24 when I become more mobile. Iām sure Iād be irritated while being restricted with physical movements and feeling āhelplessāā¦
Snow,
“Yes, please wait at least after 7/24 when I become more mobile. Iām sure Iād be irritated while being restricted with physical movements and feeling āhelplessāā¦”
Gotcha. š
Marcia,
āNobody gets rid of their addiction. Itās an ongoing, lifelong struggle, and you canāt make someone want to get help and get better.ā
Nobodyāļø Is such a confirmed data existing? I know my xSO never touched any alcohol drinks again after AA, itās been over 2 decades. Since itās genetic, one of his brothers never touched alcohol, the other one stopping now. the father always restricted himself to 1glass of wine while socializing.
Iām not trying to make anyone, except my cared friends, want to āget help/betterā, itās a failure of the culture or education. In COO, itād be 99.99% absurd if someone says that s/he does not care about bettering in their own health, if the knowledge is sufficiently present.
The ancient national aim has been to live WISELY, although many, many failed to do so throughout the history. The modern West seems to focus on FREEDOM/choice that could certain leads to oneās own demises/woes if itās used for self-harm/abuse, while they also want othersā genuine love, respect, esteem, etcā¦. So paradoxical!
[ā It makes me feel sad for your family system.ā
Iāve just become a Stoic with them! Ha! I have no expectations. Iām just pleasantly surprised if they actually do anything.]
YES, INDEED! Yourāe a true Stoic in this arenaā¼ļø š. It can be extended to almost all aspects of life, including dates/LO/bfā¦.you know my drill.
āI canāt keep track of all your acronyms. š I donāt know what an LFF is. Limerence-Flavored Friend ?
Yes.
āI donāt want one of those! š ā
You can ask LaR š whether he could consider LFF as a close friend somewhere down the road, when his LE ember is completely gone.
āI probably wouldnāt expect too much of friends. That seems to be a losing proposition. Again, if they show up, Iām pleasantly surprised.ā
Yes, treat friends, or anyone, with a Stoic style inside of our mind, while keeping put appropriated effort with genuine smiles. The key is NOT EXPECTing any set of outcomes, just live fully at present for a moment, an hour, a day; then next.
āThe 2000 version.ā
Ah, that Emma Thompsonās hubby! I canāt watch him, heās a cunning fox/wolf, never a cup of my tea! Iād never trust that type. He does resemble Butler.
āHeās an attractive guy, but itās the way he plays the part.ā
I can understand why heās attractive to a certain type of women, but a turnoff to me. I may want to see his acting skills, though.
āIt gets steamier. I think heās taking off her shoes before anything much has happened and says (Iām paraphrasing), āI could terrify you, Emma.ā And she says something like, āWhat if I want you to?ā I have to get my smelling salts out for that one! šā
Reallyāļø You helpless Romantic/9-tail fox š¦ ! Most COO women would have never responded that way, the culture forbidsāļø Now, you make me wanna check the movie out.
āI donāt know if he wrote that line. Could have been the screenwriter.ā
I realized that. There is another version of the TV series in 4 parts, about 52 minutes each.
āItās just a fictional story. No real man talks that like. šā
As I repeated many times, itās the power of imagination! which sucked all of us in, believing itās plausible. I bet some men tried to imitate tons of lines from romantic novels. As itās famously said: Itās not just that Arts copy life, but Life imitates Artsā¼ļø
āAnd to be so adept at writing such a complex female character. šā
āMadame Boweryā is indeed one of the masterpieces in classical literature! ā morally and psychologically serving as a warning, too!
Have you seen Binocheās movie, āWidow of Saint-Pierreā? I thought sheās powerful even in the period of 1850 when women donāt have a formal job. Emma could re-invent herself like the substantial āWidowā.
Marcia,
Just got a small Glimmer last night from a new student to my existing tutoring class (w/another st.). I spotted his side face first as he walked in the hallway trying to fold his āļø and did not see me. š
Around 30, and married to a woman from COOā¦ shy, introvert, intelligent, good looking, originally from TXā¦ I felt I was a bit more excited than usual during the sessionā¦
What did I say, when one is not looking or even looking at a possible death, things just happen!
āļø,
“You can ask LaR š whether he could consider LFF as a close friend somewhere down the road, when his LE ember is completely gone.”
I will save Marcia the time – I can’t answer this yet and will only be able to later, with hindsight.
Almost all evidence on LwL says ‘it’s highly unlikely’. (Mila has given us a nice counterpoint today about her xLO2)
And yet … I have watched you two musing on what makes a strong friendship. For most of the bits you discussed, I think MFF and I give and get those good qualities of a strong friendship from the other – one worth fighting for.
And yet (again) … I ask myself – is that the case *because of* or *despite* the limerent flavouring on the friendship, at least from my side? (Does she also have that flavouring?? š£š£ FUTILITY alarm).
Without the flavouring, would all the qualities of the friendship still be there? I can’t know until the flavouring is totally gone. I am not looking for an answer here, just saying it needs time. I continue to try to work towards it.
šš¤Æ
About addictions, maybe you are both right but from different angles. An alcoholic can get to a point of never acting on the urge to drink. But the urge is still likely to be there. And one drink would inevitably lead to many for the addict/ex addict. They will never be like another person who can just enjoy an odd social drink.
Snow,
“Nobodyāļø Is such a confirmed data existing?”
Yes! An addict is an addict forever. Look at actor Phillip Seymour Hoffman. I think he was sober for decades and out of the blue starting using again and died of an overdose.
“Iām not trying to make anyone, except my cared friends, want to āget help/betterā, ”
My point was that you can want to help and try to help, but you cannot change/stop someone’s behavior.
“In COO, itād be 99.99% absurd if someone says that s/he does not care about bettering in their own health, if the knowledge is sufficiently present.”
You’re thinking too logically. People do things all the time that aren’t good for them. This whole site is littered with them. š There is a correlation between limerence and addiction. All limerents give into it at some point.
“The modern West seems to focus on FREEDOM/choice that could certain leads to oneās own demises/woes if itās used for self-harm/abuse, while they also want othersā genuine love, respect, esteem, etcā¦. So paradoxical!”
I definitely focus on freedom. There’s so little of it in life. But, obviously, within reason.
[āI donāt want one of those! š ā]
“You can ask LaR š whether he could consider LFF as a close friend somewhere down the road, when his LE ember is completely gone.”
Well, I’m like you. I don’t become limerent for friends. So I probably won’t ever have an LFF.
“Yes, treat friends, or anyone, with a Stoic style inside of our mind, while keeping put appropriated effort with genuine smiles. The key is NOT EXPECTing any set of outcomes, just live fully at present for a moment, an hour, a day; then next.”
I would have a lot of expectations for an SO. There’s a commitment there. Friends have their own lives. They come and go.
“Ah, that Emma Thompsonās hubby!”
Yes.
” I canāt watch him, heās a cunning fox/wolf, never a cup of my tea! Iād never trust that type. He does resemble Butler.”
Well, you don’t trust him. You just enjoy the ride. He’s a “professional.” š
“Reallyāļø You helpless Romantic/9-tail fox š¦ ! ”
I would pay money for someone to talk to me like that. š There’s a also a correlation between being turned on and being afraid. That’s why dating coaches tell people going on early dates to go to amusement parks (I know you don’t like them, but this is an example).
“āMadame Boweryā is indeed one of the masterpieces in classical literature! ā morally and psychologically serving as a warning, too!”
Yes. Talk about someone sucked in by the culture of romanticism!
“Have you seen Binocheās movie, āWidow of Saint-Pierreā? I thought sheās powerful even in the period of 1850 when women donāt have a formal job. Emma could re-invent herself like the substantial āWidowā.”
I haven’t. That’s the one of the biggest hurdles for Bovary. She has two paths in
life — marriage/motherhood or the nunnery. Given her rather restless nature, they’re both bad choices. She has no good outlet for her restless mind.
“Just got a small Glimmer last night from a new student to my existing tutoring class (w/another st.). I spotted his side face first as he walked in the hallway trying to fold his āļø and did not see me. š
Around 30, and married to a woman from COOā¦ shy, introvert, intelligent, good looking, originally from TXā¦ I felt I was a bit more excited than usual during the sessionā¦
What did I say, when one is not looking or even looking at a possible death, things just happen!”
But in all honesty … who cares? The guy isn’t available. I had a small glimmer for someone at a meetup event the other day. I’d talked to him a few weeks ago at another event. But he’s married, which he referenced several times. (Is there nothing more demoralizing than a guy you’re into talking about his wife? :)) That’s the only good thing about the apps, as bad as they are. At least a big portion of those guys are available (although I’m sure there are married ones on there). What am I supposed to do with a glimmer for a taken person? It’s like going into a bakery of luscious cakes and not being able to buy them.
So that was my point about being deliberate about finding a partner, if someone is indeed wanting to find one. Leaving it to chance … is just the Universe presenting opportunities you can’t have. Not to mention that if they are available, they might not be interested. Of they could be interested but just want a hookup. You have to be more deliberate in meeting a bigger number of people, which is very difficult to do naturally if you’re not young. Because most people won’t be available.
Marcia,
āYes! An addict is an addict forever. Look at actor Phillip Seymour Hoffman. I think he was sober for decades and out of the blue starting using again and died of an overdose.ā
You only give me one example here. Without a scientific data on this, Iām NOT convinced.
āMy point was that you can want to help and try to help, but you cannot change/stop someoneās behavior.
No, I wonāt even try; if they do not try hard enough to help themselves. āGod helps those who help themselves firstā! Iām not a god. I can walk away from them, be they SO, LO, TO, close friends.
āYouāre thinking too logically. People do things all the time that arenāt good for them. This whole site is littered with them. š There is a correlation between limerence and addiction. All limerents give into it at some point.ā
Stereotypically speaking, the majority of COO are very logical; therefore, you hear little ācrazy love storiesā in great literature. When I was/am not in LE, you canāt estimate how logical I could be. š T gets stronger.
Itās unwise or even sad to see people ādo things all the time that arenāt good for them. ā. I used to think the Westerners in general must be smart or smarter than us the Easterners, this site has somewhat changed my old mindā¦ You (collectively in general, Americans in particular ), with so much wealth, intelligence, education are just the way too willful/unruly/headstrongā¦ š *sigh*
Itās true that there is a correlation between limerence and addiction, but itās behavioral, not substantial, therefore, the mind has more ability/will power to work and control it.
āI definitely focus on freedom. Thereās so little of it in life. But, obviously, within reason.ā
There is so little of āWHATāāAre you saying thereās so little of FREEDOM in life? š³
āWell, Iām like you. I donāt become limerent for friends. So I probably wonāt ever have an LFF.ā
Me, neither. But I wonder, if never had PA, can I make LO into a friend ā LOFāObviously, after my LE for LO is gone. š§
āI would have a lot of expectations for an SO. Thereās a commitment there. Friends have their own lives. They come and go.ā
I understand your expectations for an SO; now can a qualified SO have a lot of expectations from YOU? Can you say that you will NOT limerent again for another LO once you make a commitment for an SO and when the habitual life rolls into a gray rocking ā
āWell, you donāt trust him. You just enjoy the ride. Heās a āprofessional.ā šā
Nope, heās a āprofessionalā Iād avoid and would NOT enjoy the ride, periodāļøIāll watch the movie and enjoy the imagined ārideā. š
āI would pay money for someone to talk to me like that. š ā
Someone has to pay me money for me to listen to such a flashy talk.
āThereās an also a correlation between being turned on and being afraid. ā
Iām not afraid, and do not need to be turned on. If interested enough, I can turn myself on.
āThatās why dating coaches tell people going on early dates to go to amusement parks (I know you donāt like them, but this is an example).ā
No, I canāt take amusement parks, and I donāt listen to those dating coaches. Tried once, but the coaching mechanical, like following some formula.
(āMadame Boweryā is indeed one of the masterpieces in classical literature! ā morally and psychologically serving as a warning, too!ā
Yes. Talk about someone sucked in by the culture of romanticism!]
Precisely!
āI havenāt. Thatās the one of the biggest hurdles for Bovary. She has two paths in life ā marriage/motherhood or the nunnery. Given her rather restless nature, theyāre both bad choices. She has no good outlet for her restless mind.ā
Thatās why weāre lucky to live in this modern era, in which we can make our own living without desperately relying on anyone else.
āBut in all honesty ā¦ who cares? The guy isnāt available. ā
So can one enjoy simple interaction with any guy who isnāt available? or internally treating him as a walking paintingā
āI had a small glimmer for someone at a meetup event the other day. Iād talked to him a few weeks ago at another event. But heās married, which he referenced several times. (Is there nothing more demoralizing than a guy youāre into talking about his wife? :)) ā
I disagree with you here. Having a glimmer does not mean Iām already into that man. Iād just enjoy sincere talking or interacting with glimmering guy no matter what and whom heās talking about. I donāt carry a goal of looking for LO, bf. or SO, so I have no pressure. Being married or not on the other side has little relevance whether he or his talks are interesting!
āThatās the only good thing about the apps, as bad as they are. At least a big portion of those guys are available (although Iām sure there are married ones on there).
I met liars there. They were married or engaged, but claimed single.
āWhat am I supposed to do with a glimmer for a taken person? ā
Appreciate for his existence or his beauty or his āprofessionalā quality without trying to get him into your grips.
āItās like going into a bakery of luscious cakes and not being able to buy them.ā
I eat luscious cake maybe once a year, or even less, I watch them in the window or inside of a bakery.
āSo that was my point about being deliberate about finding a partner, if someone is indeed wanting to find one. ā
I neither deliberately looking for a partner nor purposefully NOT looking for one. And apps is not for me.
āLeaving it to chance ā¦ is just the Universe presenting opportunities you canāt have. ā
You donāt trust fate. Some modern people think you can control fate with technological tools, thus actively or agitatedly or frantically searching romances through dating apps. or meetups (I tried that, too), or depressively leave it to fate. Do I sound like depressed?
āNot to mention that if they are available, they might not be interested. Of they could be interested but just want a hookup. ā
This scenario takes a large portion in the dating world.
āYou have to be more deliberate in meeting a bigger number of people, which is very difficult to do naturally if youāre not young. Because most people wonāt be available.ā
Are you trying to convince me or yourselfā My mind is not actively engaged in ādeliberatelyā searching for a date/bf/SO. If the universe forgets me, then itās totally fine!
Iām quite content and joyful nowadaysā¦ because that Longing is absenā¼ļø āŗļø
Typo: āBeing married or not on the other side has little relevance to whether he as a person or his talks are interesting!ā
Snow,
“You only give me one example here. Without a scientific data on this, Iām NOT convinced.”
I have no dog in this fight. You don’t have to believe me, but it’s pretty established knowledge (you can Google it) that an addict is an addict for life. I don’t mean a social drinker or even a heavy social drinker. But someone who is, for example, a full-blown alcoholic.
“Stereotypically speaking, the majority of COO are very logical; therefore, you hear little ācrazy love storiesā in great literature. When I was/am not in LE, you canāt estimate how logical I could be. š T gets stronger.”
Well, I’m not particularly logical. I can operate with common sense, but then there’s another side of me that gets tired of doing that. Like I’m repressing myself and drowning in “making the right choice” and “being pleasant.”
“You (collectively in general, Americans in particular ), with so much wealth, intelligence, education are just the way too willful/unruly/headstrongā¦ š *sigh*”
As it should be. Sometimes you say no just because you’re being told to say yes. š
“therefore, the mind has more ability/will power to work and control it.”
I agree, but limerents are also chasing a high, like addicts.
“Are you saying thereās so little of FREEDOM in life? š³”
Yes. The only true freedom comes with money. Having enough so you don’t have to work. Having a job is NOT freedom. Being told what to do, when to do it, etc.
“Me, neither. But I wonder, if never had PA, can I make LO into a friend ā LOFāObviously, after my LE for LO is gone. š§”
Idk. Hard for me to imagine as I never thought of my LOs as friends. (I know, I know. You did. :)) So without the romantic element, there would be no point in maintaining contact.
“Can you say that you will NOT limerent again for another LO once you make a commitment for an SO and when the habitual life rolls into a gray rocking ā”
I’ve thought of that. Can I limerent be trusted? š I hope I would back away from a potential LO.
“Iāll watch the movie and enjoy the imagined ārideā. š”
I recommend watching it. It’s a pretty good version of it.
“Someone has to pay me money for me to listen to such a flashy talk.”
Ok. š
“Iām not afraid, and do not need to be turned on.”
I meant the thrill of the rollercoaster (or substitute another “fun” activity) can generate physical attraction.
“I donāt listen to those dating coaches. Tried once, but the coaching mechanical, like following some formula.”
Well, I’m not an expert, so I need some help. š
“So can one enjoy simple interaction with any guy who isnāt available? or internally treating him as a walking paintingā”
A walking painting?
You can enjoy the interaction, but it’s so, so, so much better if there’s actually a possibility of something happening. Because that ratchets things up to a whole different level.
“I disagree with you here. Having a glimmer does not mean Iām already into that man. ”
I guess I’m not clear what it means to you.
For the guy at the meetup, I felt attracted to him and I liked him. That to me is the start of things. What I’d call a “glimmer.” He was a little flirty, teasing me a little, poking his finger in my arm. But I’m not limerent for him or pining for him or plotting my next move. It wasn’t like that.
“Iād just enjoy sincere talking or interacting with glimmering guy no matter what and whom heās talking about. I donāt carry a goal of looking for LO, bf. or SO, so I have no pressure. ”
I don’t have any kind of goal with this guy. There’s not enough in our interactions for me to go off the deep end. š And given the existence of LO-lite and that being so recent, it’s unlikely I’d go off the deep end so soon. This other guy’s not pushing my buttons. It’s a totally different kind of interaction.
“Appreciate for his existence or his beauty or his āprofessionalā quality without trying to get him into your grips.”
Now, why would I want to do that? š
“I eat luscious cake maybe once a year, or even less”
I’m good for a very long time, and then I go off the deep end every now and then. Get a cake and eat most if not all of it.
“You donāt trust fate. Some modern people think you can control fate with technological tools, thus actively or agitatedly or frantically searching romances through dating apps. or meetups (I tried that, too), or depressively leave it to fate. Do I sound like depressed?”
No, but I do wonder if you’re repressing some of your basic wants (See? I used “wants.”) (I’m not referring to sex but love and companionship.)
“This scenario takes a large portion in the dating world.”
Yes. From what little I know about the apps, that’s true.
“Are you trying to convince me or yourselfā My mind is not actively engaged in ādeliberatelyā searching for a date/bf/SO. If the universe forgets me, then itās totally fine!”
Ok.
āļø
This must be šļø awful news to get, and an uncomfortable level of uncertainty. I want to give a big š§”, šš and šŖšŖfrom LarLarLand. You are one strong š¦š„ (or š¦) and you have got this. As Marcia already said, your friends here at LwL are here for you. Thank you for telling us.
Sir, š© š š ,
Thank you for your big š§” from LarLarLand! (with SO and LFF on each armāš¤)
Talking about uncertainty on this siteāļø Well, at least I can have it surgically removed and hopefully killed. I donāt want to live with it at all š
Snow,
I’m also sorry to hear your news.
Know that we all trust that you will be better than new š„š¦ You are strong and have made a good choice. Of course it’s normal to be stressed. You have some good tools to deal with that – your meditation, and people to talk to – also here. Please don’t hesitate to use them. š¤
Sweet šØ,
One thing Iāve learned from the past experiences is that a surgery, big or small, interrupts meditation ā the Qi meridians and circulation channels would be broken; some can be recovered, some never.
Iāll ramble with you guys , my LwL family, and excuse myself not to be Stoic for a while ā loudly whine! š¤
Dear Snow,
Thank you for letting us know. This way, we can put you in our thoughts and prayers. I will be praying. It must feel so scary – but dont feel alone –
Let us know if we can help, to distract you or talk things through?
Sending love,
Bx
My š š§ š© ,
Of course, I wouldnāt give up this chance to demand your bewitching love for me, a special LwL child of yours! š¶ š
I donāt feel alone, but will be ādeadā for a few hours soonā¦ (already did on 6/19, not bad! š )
Thank you for your prayers, I need them š
Dearest Snow
My very best wishes to you for your upcoming Surgery. I like everyone here am thinking of you and wish a successful treatment and speedy recovery.
Jmmo xx
āŗļø,
Thank you, JMMO! You come on time, I need to borrow a large āŗļø from you for my recuperation on our LwL farm, can it be done?
Youāve been quiet lately, how is going with your LE? I hope youāre steadily feeling more out of itāļø
Dear āļø
The āŗļøis yours any time you need it xx
Iām doing ok, thank you. Funnily enough, I had a very vivid dream about her last night – the first time itās happened. In it , she gave me a hug and was trying to tell me that I was still there for her! Then she realised I wasnāt reciprocating and let go. And then one of her other āmale friendsā was circling and she tried to avoid him before driving away. It ended with me explaining to her sister (whom I met twice) why Iād āleft herā. She partially acknowledged it.
I wasnāt longing for her, and I havenāt woken feeling sad or wanting to reconnect – just the opposite. Iād like to think that it is a huge step in moving further away from her.
Thinking of you, āļø. Let me know when you need the āŗļøš„°
āŗļø,
Iām thinking about your dream, and attempt to offer my reading, like I did with LaRās critical dream, which could be entirely wrong.
We (collectively) have talked before how LO represents one aspect in oneās Unconsciousness that is ignored and calls for oneās attention. Based on Jung, every figure appeared in oneās dream represents primarily a part of oneās Self (many partsā Selves), the Unconscious; not anything external.
So in your dream, LO is ONE part of Self (you name itā) that used to want to your executive selfās attention, but now your executive part doesnāt feel a need to meet that demand/requirement, which was probably taken care of.
Her āmale friendā is another smaller part of your Self, that is closely related to this LO aspect. Try to figure out what he represents in your Self.
LOās sister is a protective part of LO (a judging part)?, and your executive mind feels a need to explain to this judging protector why you let go of LO.
āI wasnāt longing for her, and I havenāt woken feeling sad or wanting to reconnect ā just the opposite. ā
Your dream ā the Unconscious often goes/shows against or balance a strong but tilted logical mindā¦
āIād like to think that it is a huge step in moving further away from her.ā
It ISā¼ļø. Only you still have judging and protective parts inside your Unconscious. Try to ask what theyāre judging and protectingā (usually some other parts in your Self).
š£ LaR š: perhaps you want to help āŗļø to find my post to csc in Internal Family System? it should be among posts from Jan.-Feb. 2025. Itās has a long list of IFS members and their functions in oneās Self.
To save your time, Iām re-list the IFS here ā Save it if you want to refer it often!
*******
Parts — Internal Family System
(Movie āInside outā is based on IFS)
PROTECTORS
Protecting from facing, experiencing oneās vulnerabilities
1. Procrastinator
2. Rebel, antisocial
3. Busy Caregiver
4. Addict, disconnected
5. Dependent
6. Dictator, narcissist
7. Lazy bone
8. Hoarder – messy mind
9. Neglector, disorganized
10. Joker ā wearing mask
11. Ignorant – superficial, fake positivity
12. Stuck in the past ā over sentimental
13. Hypocrite (annoyed)
14. Superman ā āsaviorā of others
15. Destroyer
16. Alcoholic
17. Greediness ā materialistic
18. Wishful dreamerā illusion
19. Fighter for āhonorāā winning
20. Obsessed achiever -pride
21. Coward attacker
22. Busybody ā rat-racer
23. Problem solver, excessive charity
24. āCarrierā for the world
25. Non-confirmer
26. People pleaser – liar, flattery, and white liar
27. Ego, pride, peacock
28. Sex/dating addict
29. Self-defender
30. Skeptic, cynic
31. Logic, rationality
32. Judge
33. Instinctive firefighter
34. Disassociated outsider
35. Aggressive, possessive lover and āprotectorā.
36. Multitasker
37. Guard ācaution
38. Puzzlement, ambivalence, confusion
39. Intellectual – condescendence
40. Anger
41. Self-absorber , detachment
42. Anxiety, schemer, controller
43. Perfectionist
44. Inner critical voice (parental)
45. Vanity – self critic
46. Competitor ā performer
47. Fantasy maker
48. Rigid rule follower
Universal human vulnerabilities-wounds
Need and can be healed and unburdened with the presence of SELF
1. Public ridicule
2. Low self-esteem , wrongdoer, apologizer
3. Gigantic primal fear
4. Lonelinessā avoidance – recluse-depression
5. Abandonment, desperation
6. Hopeless and helpless pain
7. Guilt ā regret
8. Self pity ā uselessness
9. Public humiliation
10. Self shame, embarrassment
11. Abandonment, sadness, grief
Innate SELF (not Buddhistic emptiness or detachment)
Often hidden or sleeping
1. Acceptance
2. Curiosity
3. Compassion, care
4. Carer, fatherly nurturer
5. Joy
6. Harmony
7. Presence, connection
8. Carer, Motherly nurturer
9. Peace
10. Sunlight, clarity, masculinity
11. Wisdomā guider
12. Confidence, femininity
13. Courage
14. Creationāimagination
15. Inner freedom
16. Connection, love
***********
To stay in Selfā the lifetime tasks!
Thank you Dear āļø. Makes much sense. I shall think on it
āŗļøx
āŗļøš,
Great to hear you’re doing ok.
When I have more time I’ll dig properly for Snow’s sequence of posts and the discussion that followed about “Internal Family Systems”, as it was very interesting on how the bits of it connect and add up in the causes of an LE or other (unconscious led) stuff we go through.
āļø – are you pretty confident that IFS discussion we had happened after christmas, not before?
Jmmo, my significant dream that Snow alluded to (featured LO, her mother and her dog) was giving me permission to let go of LO, with peace of mind. Or more accurately, to get rid of the phantom person I had turned into LO/get rid of the LE and guilt I felt about it. It was this dream that finally helped me make some peace with my DoH. The realistic person out of whom I created “LO” lives on in my reality, but “LO” no longer does (or at least not in the same way with hope attached).
I think you are further down the road of letting go your LO than I was when I had my vivid dream. So this could mean, as Snow said, that your dream is about letting *something else* go – the something LO has come to symbolise.
Or, if you have had wobbles since about how you let LO go, it might be more literal, to reassure you that’s ok and you no longer have to justify it.
Does any of that feel ‘warm’?
Good wishes for now to you both,
š
š,
My memory is that CSC wasnāt with our Lāš °ļøāļøš ¾ļøš ¾ļøĀ®ļø Christmas party, and she resurfaced for the second time around January. Upon answering her question, I uploaded IFS system and other discussions. So I thought the posts might be between January and March, however, under your request, I searched once in irrelevant blogs, but I could not find it.
csc also appeared sporadically before November 2024, but I am pretty sure I did not post I have a system before the Christmas party time. You can ask her as well. The post was addressed to her and you around the same time.
Typo: āI did not post IFS system before the Christmas partyā¦ā
Makes sense.
Ok, I will attach a power tool to the š and do some industrial digging for that post soon.
Hi š
Thanks. Sounds relevant and a little comforting š
āŗļø
Hello Snow, sending my heartfelt best wishes to you.
I think every surgery has a small % risk to it. Of course it’s normal that you feel anxious.
You are a strong lady and I am sure you will do all the right things to prepare and support your recovery (eat nutritious foods, sleep lots, meditations etc.)
Take care x
Hi š,
Thank you for your reminder of all possible post care needsā¦
Iāve done some preparation for myself for all possible scenarios, except the possible worst ā if % risk takes place, who would deal with Mom (which involves stuff both here and still in COO)?
So far, I only assume that Iād wake up 95% for sure.
Oh, dear Snow!
I don’t know much about your circumstances and I don’t know what to say.
I had breast cancer three years ago and I was a ball of anxiety, although the surgery went well and I am now fine.
I am sending my love and good thoughts for the best possible outcome for your situation.
Norma š”,
Thank you for your good wishes!
Now I can join you to legitimately whine for anxiety or whatever, fall in LE with gay men or lavish houses! ā just kidding š¤”
I donāt like the description of the coming recovery or the possibly more treatmentā¦ š„¹
To Snow:
There are worse things than falling in love with gay men and their houses.
I am sending you prayers and loving thoughts.
Norma,
Gay men and their houses š” cannot be worse than those flaky, hot-n-cold game player, or Narc LO; at least their answer is constantly NO to a straight woman or a human being.ā¦
If their answer is not No, then their bad temper is constant, so you would not be deluded to expect anything better and eventually get used to it. Uncertainty is removed, then LE would die sooner or later, right?
Thank you again for your caring Prayersā¦
I dunno Miss Snow. The most flattering compliment I have ever had was from a man. An older gay man back when I was in my mid to late twenties asking me out for drinks. I teased my wife for months that even the men are after me. I have no idea why any straight man could get upset or offended at that. It went right to my head lol
To Snow:
I have no uncertainty about LO. There is a fair amount of pleasure in his company. I have a wonderful time with him when he is not in a bad mood. It’s not all about romance.
Having said that, I ran into him today. He is in a bad mood.
He was not unkind, but he is extremely stressed out over his house.
Part of me is laughing, because he did this to himself. I can’t understand why he would buy a house clear across the country, and not even have his own white elephant house on the market TWO full months later? Extremely foolish on his part, although I would never tell him that.
We still had a pleasant discussion and some hugs.
Somehow, limerence doesn’t seem all that significant when you’re facing a major health challenge.
Adam š© š„,
I was NOT talking about gay men in general, but ONLY Miss š”ās LOā¦. according to her description that is highly obscured by her LE or whateverā¦ š¤
In general, if to choose a close friend between a straight man and gay man, trust me, Iād ALWAYS go for the latter ā¼ļø
Have I told here many times that my xSO and LO5 were both taken by other men as a gay man??
š„ š š· would not take Dame Marciaās order to press the button *beep* ā š whenever Miss š helplessly mentions her LOā¦ but Iāll take š„ š š·ās duty nowā¦. Iāve got an LEGITIMATE reason ā my vexation about the damned surgery š¤āļø
š£ š š š š š š š š š š š š š š š š š š š š š š š š š š š š š š š£
Oh no! I sent up a prayer for you, Snow!
š š¦ ,
Thank you! Will you let your š¦ carry all Jane Austenās š to my āŗļø in LwL, so I could get lost in them during my recuperationāā
Can it be on a Kindle? Itās a little heavy for a bat š
š š¦,
They can ONLY be on Kindle, sent through our ONE and ONLY LwL, right? š
Iām sure Iāll see your š š¦ flying through my window and around my š!
š«
Aw, hugs! š
Sorry to hear that, Snow. I am sure your surgery will be completed successfully. Wish you all the best!
Thank you, ABCD, for your best wish!
My surgeon did not and would not use the word āsureā in any aspects of my case, but clearly points out all its complication and uncertainties. I like her clear head (and a bit stern facial expression ) which has her supervisor called in for the operation.
To practice Stoicism, I eliminate the word, āsureā from my mental dictionary, and prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
Oh my goodness Snow!
To think we were wittering on yesterday exchanging ideas about poetry and this was all happening! I will be thinking of you next week and wishing you all the best for a smooth operation and successful recovery. xxxxx
Monochrome,
I need to patent an emoji for youā¦ Do you want to š©āš¦° šŖ½ (red hair whirring) ? But be aware, we have a š©āš¦° š hereā¦ it may cause a stir if he chases you here in LwLā¦ š¤
We will continue withering about poetry during my long recovery, for sure!šŖ
Opps, Itās āwitteringā not āwitheringā š
Poetry can never be witheringā¼ļø
I hope you’re ok this morning āļø. Thinking of you and what you’re going through.
I don’t need to worry about a š©āš¦° š because mine is yellow fuzzy/curly, not red. And since I’m undercover I don’t want a name that looks too much like me! Maybe just a little fluffy āļø?
Hi Snow,
Same as āļø, hoping you are feeling ok this morning and sending hugs and lots of good wishes. Don’t feel that you need to reply as this could be overwhelming for you right now. I will continue to send wishes your way when you pop into my mind, dear Snow.
Bx
Hi everyone, Iāve only very recently learned about limerence, and only today came across this website, but the more Iām reading about it the more Iām thinking yep thatās me. Iām not entirely sure if this the correct place to post to get things off my chest, but any advice on some of the things to read (there seems to be quite a lot) and in general would be appreciated.
So Iām a guy in my mid 20s who has never been in a serious relationship, but there have been a couple of women since my late teens that Iāve been almost obsessively attracted to, fantasising about a relationship and craving any small form of reciprocation. At points it has caused my mental health to really spiral, but Iāve always been too embarrassed to admit to anyone that a big part of it (not fully I guess) has been due to my feelings for someone. Eventually I got to the point where I decided in my early 20s that dating and romance werenāt for me. I hated how it made me feel, especially as the few times I did really like someone it ended up so one sided.
So until about a year ago I had completely cut out the idea of trying to meet anyone, and was slowly trying to sort myself out a bit. I then met someone who the more I spoke to, I realised that I quite liked her, we got on well, had some similar things we were into, and just in general she was really fun and easy to talk to. Unfortunately I can now see in hindsight that I was falling into the same feelings as before, but at the time I thought hey im more mature now, why not give this a go. So i asked her out, she actually agreed and seemed pretty excited, so all happy days, we met up a few times for some drinks and then went out for an afternoon and evening into the city which was good fun. But after that we agreed that we were probably better off as mates, she is still studying so is only around where I live when on breaks from uni, plus I think there is was an element that despite being a couple of years older I was probably more inexperienced and not very flirty, I get a bit anxious and awkward with that stuff. Anyway, so I thought initially that I was completely fine with being friends, we got on really well and I didnāt want to throw that away, but then my stupid mind had other ideas and I feel like Iāve just ended up back where I was when I was younger.
Weāre still in touch, but Iāve realised over the past few months that Iām now the only one to initiate any contact. Iām almost just waiting for that euphoric feeling when she responds to me, and itās just starting to drive me insane. For one I feel like I must be annoying her now at this point, I think itās worse when I know sheās back nearby and then I want to meet up with her (Iām starting realise that I donāt think she necessarily wants to anymore and is just trying to be kind) . Itās massively affecting my mood, and Iām struggling to even concentrate on simple things like watching tv and reading books.
Anyway, thanks to anyone who has read that long vent, as I said I donāt know if this is the right place for it, but it felt quite good to actually write that out.
“For one I feel like I must be annoying her now at this point, I think itās worse when I know sheās back nearby and then I want to meet up with her (Iām starting realise that I donāt think she necessarily wants to anymore and is just trying to be kind)”
Oli
I can relate to this. I always wondered if I was annoying to her and my reaching out to her at the job, never saw/talked to her outside of work, was overwhelming her. I think she just had a whole lot of grace being thrown in the mix with me on a project that came direct from the top, that we were tasked to do.
Compounded with the fact that she has never reached out to me in the 3 years since she left the job, makes me feel like a foolish old man. It doesn’t help that I naturally make friends with, and can talk to women, much easier than I can men. So, I am constantly on guard with myself to keep it warm and friendly but blatantly platonic. Wish I can something I could say to make it feel better for you. I just knew how much I could relate to that statement of yours.
Hi Adam,
Cheers for the response, itās actually quite reassuring to hear other people have similar relatable situations. Itās tough feeling like youāre annoying someone that you should care about, and yet itās like a drug in how addictive just simple communication with them can be.
I hope your situation improves, and I really appreciate the kind words. I at least feel a bit less like a nutcase having learnt about limerence, and that itās obviously something that quite a few people experience. Iāve always felt a bit like an idiot who doesnāt know what heās doing whilst many of my friends are or have been in long term loving relationships. From what I can tell, I think I have actually only pursued people that Iāve been limerent towards, which from reading a bit seems like thatās not really a good idea.
Anyway, once again thanks for the response!
“Iāve realised over the past few months that Iām now the only one to initiate any contact. Iām almost just waiting for that euphoric feeling when she responds to me, and itās just starting to drive me insane.”
Hi Oli,
Count me in with having experienced this feeling a lot. Once it gets to this point, you have to gauge whether or not she is worth your time. From the sound of it, she’s become indifferent. Disclosing any deeper feelings to her probably won’t help either. As much as it probably will hurt you, probably begin pulling back to see what she does. Playing the game of being the one to constantly reach out will drain you mentally and emotionally. Plus you don’t want this is to overtake your psyche. I advise people on this issue, only because in my situation, I let my emotions get the best of me and came close to becoming suicidal over it.. No joke..
Not saying that I think you’re headed that way. Your young and have plenty of time to meet that special someone. Unlike me who is seriously going thru some mid-life crisis crap..
Oli
In Dr L’s most recent blog entry Misperception of Romantic Interest ( https://livingwithlimerence.com/misperception-of-romantic-interest/#comment-104903 ) he talks about how studies have shown that men tend to have a higher percentage of misreading as simple as kindness, generosity or niceness from women. Couple that with a man lonely or emotionally starved and it’s one of the best meals you’ve ever had.
I think it’s the initiation of those kinds of emotions from a woman before anything is even formed. She was always so appreciative of my helping her on the job even though it was exactly that, my job. I was doing what I paid to do. But she thanked me for almost every task I completed for her. Nothing like feeling appreciated. We just tend to let it go to our heads.
Hi Mj,
Genuinely thanks for the advice. I was starting to figure that as much as I donāt want to, that Iād have to stop contacting her. Iām sure itās not going to be easy, but reading what you have said itās obviously not a road I want to continue down, for either me or her I suppose. My big worry is that I might sort of trade it for another addiction and go back to heavily drinking or weed again, which I managed to kick a few years back, but I guess thatās not something worth thinking about.
Thanks for the kind words, and whilst I canāt really give anything in return, I hope you get out the other side from your crap.
“My big worry is that I might sort of trade it for another addiction and go back to heavily drinking or weed again”
What you write there speaks volumes of why limerence takes over like any addiction. The dopamine rush you get from LO is your brains way of making you happy. Which it always wants to do. It’s also not uncommon to fall into this trap because you’ve gotten past other addictions and now this one wants to be front and center.
You seem to have a handle on things but definitely check out the link Brother Adam posted above. The forum is full of good advice from many years past.
Dr. L has put a lot of work into this place and recently put out a book. (Unfortunately not available in the States yet) His work is solid. He also has a YouTube channel. Personally I don’t know where I’d be without the support I’ve gotten here. I’ve been on the blog, going on 3 years. I’ve also found a lot of good limerence related stuff at Neurosparkle.com
Hey Adam,
Cheers for the link, Iāve just given it a read through, and yeah there is a lot there with misreading signals or exaggerating little details that I have definitely been guilty of in the past. I think also as you have said feeling lonely and emotionally starved in addition to that is a recipe for seeking out those little breadcrumbs. As someone who hasnāt been in a relationship (only really had a drug fuelled casual thing when I was at uni) I feel like I donāt really know what itās like when someone is interested in me.
Which to an extent is probably why the limerence with this current girl has hit me so hard, I was pretty certain when we did go out that she was interested at the time. She was definitely flirty with me, initiating contact, touching me playfully etc and then that abruptly stopped (in fairness to her she did explain to me quite early on that she has BPD). But yeah I think once that had changed, Iāve been clinging onto how she acted with me back then as opposed to the reality now. Definitely let it get to our heads.
Cheers MJ,
Prior to literally a few days ago, I never even considered that how I felt was like an addiction, but it makes an awful lot of sense and I do know that Iāve got an addictive personality.
I gave the link Adam sent a quick read, and will certainly be looking into some of the other articles and posts here and other places. Thereās so much that Iām finding relatable and it suddenly feels like Iām making sense of it now.
Dr L seems like he is doing some really great work with this website and everything that Iāve read so far. Iām actually in the UK, so will definitely look to grab a copy of his book.
Hi Oli,
Connections with other people may help bring perspective and dumb down that desperate need for your LO to respond or initiate contact with you.
You are young and I am sure you have so much to share with others and have fun and advance yourself.
Don’t get stuck, is what I am trying to say.
Maybe talk to yourself like a good friend would. What would they say ?
I’m sure you have a lot of good qualities to give to many in your life and don’t just concentrate on your LO.
Also if you tend to other vices alcohol etc, then to find a more healthy vice such as exercise/ working out as it gives the release of feel good endorphins and the highs.
I am doing this and it really helps build self esteem and many other benefits.
I am older female with very different circumstances than you, but united in trying to navigate this limerence thing !
Hi Imho,
Thanks a lot for the genuinely kind words of advice. I can already see that this place has obviously cultivated a great community.
Connections with my friends does sound like a good place to start, I do have a tendency to start shutting people out a bit when Iām not feeling great in myself (with the limerence and other mental health problems even when I havenāt been into someone), and I know that ends up exacerbating the issue. I think perhaps being more open about this stuff with a good friend might be an idea, Iām certainly not the best at talking about how I feel, often feeling too embarrassed to admit to it. Yet Iām also the first to preach similar advice when the shoe is on the other foot, and a friend is having problems.
But I definitely hear you on trying to not get stuck on her. I am normally quite an active person, I do sports with kids at primary school as part of my work, play 5 a side football and would run at least 3 times a week, but unfortunately have injured my knee so am out of action for a while. Honestly, I think that lack of exercise and release of endorphins over the past month or so has definitely made me worse.
But once again thanks for your response, and itās nice to hear from people in all sorts of different circumstances but as you said are united in their experience of dealing with these feelings.
Dear Oli,
I read your intro a couple of days ago and had been meaning to write you a little welcome message. Well done for finding this site. I think I would have benefitted from it when I was younger.
I think it’s really helpful to understand what’s going on in our brains when we’re fixated on one person with unrequited love. Understanding that there are mechanisms in our brain that keep us in this state by creating constant reminders and seeking hits of brain chemicals by keeping on thinking of that person in an endless loop. This is helpful when we actually have a partner and the brain mechanisms help us to stay monogamous, but not helpful when our longing for one person causes us potentially to miss opportunities to consider lovely new people.
Obviously just understanding us doesn’t get us out of the loop, but it’s a start! Dr L also has useful suggestions for training our brain out of the situation.
I’d also like to reassure you that plenty of my friends didn’t have any long-term relationships until their 30s, and are now happily settled.
Good luck, keep reading the stuff and I hope you find the help you need.
Hi,
Thanks for the welcome message.
Your point about the brain mechanisms, and how it keeps us hooked, is something I wouldnāt have even considered prior to discovering limerence and this place. I quite like the idea of trying to understand it from a mechanism perspective rather than on pure emotion, so will try and keep that in mind when the fantasies come to a head.
Once again thanks for the kind words and welcome.
Hello everyone. Its been a long time since I have been on LwL, so wanted to check in. I am feeling pretty good now. Do have some thoughts of her every now and then. Have been guilty of checking out her social as well, on a couple of occasions. However, I am emotionally much more stable now. I cannot really stop her thoughts popping in, but I am navigating them well, just allowing them to come and go. Though I try not to reason about her, I am able to reason with much less emotion, perhaps, even with a bit a detachment. Its really helping that there have been no physical interactions with her since some time, maybe she has moved away. We did have a warm and fuzzy virtual interaction – it had me over the moon for a couple of days, before I reached a stable state.
My goal is to keep carrying on this momentum, even the status quo is pretty okay with me.
I will surely report if there are any slip ups, hope not!
Hope all of you are doing well. Have a good one. Cheers.
Hi ABCD,
good to hear from you and good to hear you are doing great! So you are not sure if she moved away or not? Doesnāt matter as long as you feel ok.
Iām out of the woods completely, I dare say. XLO will come for a short visit next week, which I feel ok about, I already made sure my SO will be with us and I hope for a pleasant and not too exciting evening.
So we seem to have made good progress in the last half year, together with Bewitched, havenāt we?
Hereās to us!š„
Thanks Mila.
Yes, you’re right. I am not sure whether she is around, or has moved out. This uncertainty is not really playing on my mind right now, so I will take it as a good thing.
Nice to know that you’re out of the woods, and also to know that you feel pretty cool about XLO’s upcoming visit. Hope you have a good interaction. Cheers!
It appears you are making progress my Friend. Cheers to you and keep up the good work. It’s nice when we can move beyond this situation isn’t it? I’m glad the status quo is working for you..
Thanks MJ. Yes, it does feel nice to reach this stage. I can see a definite improvement in my quality of life. How are things going on with you?
ABCD,
Uplifting update from you.
Glad the fuzzy virtual interaction was just in the moment or only a little longer after. You seem in a great place.
Raising a glass to celebrate your progress and the old gang, as Mila indicated. š„
I am still getting there…. Someone has to be bottom of the class I guess.
But you are not bottom of the class! You are doing ok, NC, and your LO left your work environment: progress! No?
Yes Imho,
You are doing so kuch better than you were. You are channeling “being your best self” and that is wonderful progress.
Me too, i was glad to hear of ABCD’s progress.
It can be done, folks!
Aww! thanks Mila and Bewitched.
I’m comparing myself to others progress maybe unfairly, as we all have different circumstances and events, so thanks for bringing the perspective.
I’m on the right path with a recent blip, and yes really trying to be my best self.
Still feels like some way to go. Anyway, I won’t hijack ABCD’s positive post any further. I have a tendency to do that for some reason, which I apologise for. It’s the check-in I think, and I feel especially connected to this little group due to our previous connections.
I am very fond of you all !
X
Thanks Imho. We are all rooting for you.
Yeah, the fuzzy interaction felt nice, to be honest. But, what was different about about it was that it did not lead to me longing for LO. During earlier times, after a meeting, I used to look forward to the next one, and when I did not get it, I used to get anxious. This is not happening right now.
This thought has been nagging at me since yesterday.
I was very sad to hear of Snow’s medical issue.
And I began wondering how important limerence is, compared to our actual lives?
It seems all-consuming at times; but how important is it, really?
Oh Miss Norma š ,
Iām sorry that my news saddens you, but itās a part of life. Youāve had your shareāļø
Limerence is only important, only if one has made it to be. Now youāve been in LwL for a while and read many stories, you know how BAD š¹ limerence could be to oneās mental health, particularly when artistic or creative components of limerence is absent.
I tell you a piece of worse news: this cancerous tumor of mine, according to my annul checkup, began to develop between 2022-23, in the worst episode of my LE and finally shown up in my 1st MRI, after the word, āpositiveā appeared, which no one ever wants to see on any of their medical checkup reports!
Now, would you focus on your own health, instead of perpetually wondering whatās going on with your ābad-temperedā LO and LEāš
To Snow:
Thank you for your comments. I am on top of my health issues. You may recall my story about a recent colonoscopy debacle, which turned out okay.
In hindsight, the whole thing was rather funny.
I wish they could have found your tumor earlier.
Dear Norma,
In my case, limerence was an escape from my actual life (ongoing health issues in the family plus bad work stress). I used it to escape into fantasy. I think for some of us, it hits us when we are already low.
Sending best wishes.
To Bewitched:
I have chronic health issues which are not life-threatening, but they keep me from having a good quality of life. So I guess I am always looking for an escape.
Iām new to the site and Dr. Bellamyās work. Trying to catch up and mostly lurking. It took me a bit to figure out Iām limerant. I thought it was a spiraling massive crush and I just needed to suck it up and put in my Big Girl pants. Unfortunately Iāve managed to do neither. My feelings developed over the last two years. My LO is my age and essentially the male version of me re intellect, humor, values so we clicked immediately. I see him several times a month and we have deep, wide-ranging convos. Iām married (for 35 years) and heās in a long-term relationship. It doesnāt help at all that he says things about what I wear, how beautiful my eyes are, asks what fragrance Iām wearing, but he honestly seems to be clueless as to his commentsā effects. He has said that people accuse him of flirting, but he doesnāt see it; just thinks heās being kind and attentive. But I spend hours each day replaying our interactions, thinking about him and fantasizing about a relationship. Itās maddening and impacting my life. Iāve gotten rid of his social media and donāt e-mail him at all. I like the advice to accept it, donāt battle it, but not sure if that will reduce my rumination. Ugh, this feels like a tough club to be a member of, but Iām looking forward to exploring the site and your support.
The first thing you need to ask yourself is, do you want the limerence to go away?
Thatās an excellent question. I do right now because itās overwhelming and affecting my marriage. I just read a post on neurosparkle that someone linked to that was really helpful. I think he loves my company, loves our convos and my energy, but the mixed signals are like a line reeling me in. The truth though is heād be more clear if he was interested romantically. Or weāre in limbo because we really canāt have a relationship. Either way I need to move on.
Welcome! A few of us are in a similar situation here. Keep visiting and reading the stuff. I’m feeling optimistic right now, as though I’ve turned a corner in the last couple of weeks. I’m not out of the woods but after I felt as though I wasn’t improving in the first few weeks after discovering this site, I do feel as though I’m reaping the rewards and feeling happier as a result. Please trust that (1) you are not alone and (2) you can beat this.
Here’s a new song for limerents:
https://infactedrecordings.bandcamp.com/album/addicted-to-you
š¦,
An excellent piece for dancingā¦ and driving the LE obsession even more intense in body (rhythm) and mind (words)ā¦
Youād never hear such a song or a tone in COOā¦ No wonder more liemrents exist in the Westā¦ š
I bet youāll like this one, too:
https://youtu.be/hwq5xtzKlk0?si=2SM0_vMIMHbQPZCI
This one came out the first year of my current LE, and I played it all the time.
š¦,
Youāre making a trouble for me now ā with this tone, I might spring up š on my surgical table, resurrecting from the ādeadā ā¼ļø
Someone posted it here once, I looked up the lyric, listened to it, and rocked with it for few daysā¦ If a right music put on, my feet would spring on their own, regardless how tired I might beā¦
Thank you for putting the link!
Youāre welcome! Itās probably me who posted it before. š
I’m a married man in my forties, the marriage is faithful but we do have our problems. I do have messed up attachment due to abandonment during childhood and I definitely have experienced limerence in the past. In fact the most defining and important relationship prior to my marriage, in hindsight was probably a limerence on my part that was utilised somewhat unscrupulously by the LO.
In my twenties I embarked in a relationship with a woman who was 12 years older than me, I was nuts about her, she was beautiful, intelligent and way more cultured than me. In fact after reading this website, looking back it was most probably a limerence because the intensity of my feelings stands out today, and they weren’t reciprocated. While there was warmth and definite affection in the relationship she didn’t love me and my intense feelings clouded any sensible judgement on my part that she could be using me for s*x and arm candy. It went on for four years, on and off, and almost destroyed me (severe depression, suicidal ideation). Eventually some kernel of sanity inside told me to get out of there and I moved to my home city, got a new job and cut all contact. (Previous attempts at NC had not worked as she, or I would break it).
It took me years to fully recover and I’m still scarred from it, in truth I still think about her. If I saw her today I would probably collapse. Fortunately we’re about as far away from each other as it’s possible to get on planet Earth as she moved to Australia. (Thankyou, people of Australia, you might just have saved my life)
Fast forward to the present, married to a wonderful woman, in a good marriage though not without it’s issues, two kids, my own business…. all looking fairly good.
The glimmer.
I take the kids to school as I’m flexible with my hours. There is a woman on the school run who, while not the spitting image of the woman I knew in my twenties, has the same archetypal look and is very attractive to me. I noticed her three years ago, and looked maybe a bit too long. Presently and after a few years our kids are all great friends and we talk often on the school run, but in the last month or two I’ve started to look forward to these meetings and look for signs of reciprocation and enjoy these exchanges. The LO’s resemblance to my ex is a problem for me and I’m at a point where I’m fantasising about her and I am guilty of engineering ways for us to meet. I’ve fully realised that I’m crossing lines here and it’s obvious that nothing will ever happen, as both I and LO are married with kids, and I have no interest in wrecking a family. But it’s got to a point where it’s getting in the way and I’m thinking about her way too much. Even if any feelings were reciprocated we are both married, it’s doomed and I need to sort me head out and concentrate on my marriage. Part of the issue here is that LO is just super nice, civilised, kind and talks in a way that is crack cocaine to my bruised inner child, like someone being nice to me sets me off. I think i need therapy!
Feels a bit better to get that down tbh.
Anyway this website is super helpful, thankyou Dr L for providing a resource to help navigate a lonely problem.
Ah, the school run. Recognise it well. Everyone’s in a hurry. Will you happen to drop off at the same time and see her? Or will you not coincide that day? Will you be at the same entrance and have a chance to say hi or even chat for a bit? Or will she have gone the other way, or even mysteriously not be there, because you haven’t worked out her exact work and kids drop-off schedule. Will you be just about to say hi, but it’ll turn out that she doesn’t hear you because she has her Airpods in, or someone else traps you in conversation? What will happen in September when the kids have different classrooms to get to? Will it make meetings more or less frequent?
It’s like Dr L’s slot machine which provides exactly the right level of uncertainty to fire up the brain chemicals into addiction. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPH9AV3Haf8
(I’m in a similar situation to you, as you can probably tell, but I’ve made a lot of progress since discovering this site just a few weeks ago. I recommend you read Smitten. And “Playing with Fire” https://livingwithlimerence.com/playing-with-fire/)
It’s good to know I’m not alone. Yes the school run does seem designed to generate these feelings in the vulnerable. I’ve just spent an hour with LO as our little ones were in a settling in thing together, and they’re besties. It was pedestrian enough that I know that it will never be anything or go anywhere, she is not interested and if she was our spouses might just have something to say about that, but I’m finding myself trying to impress her in conversation like some love sick teenager and it’s embarrassing. Looking forward to the summer holidays so I can work on this (by this i mean ME and MY PROBLEM).
My wife suspects something but hasn’t challenged me directly, but she mentions LO quite a bit. I know that the advice is to talk to your spouse about your LE but I don’t think that will work here, my wife is very prone to jealousy which has inputted into some of our marital problems as it has damaged the trust (this LE is the limit of anything I’ve done wrong in our marriage and I feel crap about it). Think I’ll have to go it alone.
“but Iām finding myself trying to impress her in conversation like some love sick teenager and itās embarrassing. ”
It really is, isn’t it. For me it was changing my wardrobe to get her attention. I went from very casual to formal casual like *snap* to where I almost didn’t realize what I was doing. Granted I like my new style and still dress the same way despite the fact she is long gone from my life. But to start it was all for her.
Hi Giraffe,
So good to know I’m not alone in this! The number of times I’ve thought how ridiculous it all is and how I’ve felt like a lovesick teenager. You’re right, it’s really embarrassing when we should be at a more sensible age! It’s not long before we’ll be having to help our teenagers through their lovesick woes.
I had too many summer holidays hoping that the feelings would go away but not having the resources to know how to do it. This time, having availed myself of the excellent resources on this site and in the book, I am confident that this summer will be different.
I don’t think there is benefit to telling my husband. Hats off to those who have done it, especially Dr L, considering how many people he has helped as a result. I have mentioned something to my husband, in terms of explaining that I had taken steps not to get too close to LO because I found him attractive. But I haven’t explained the full extent of the crush or about limerence or this site. It would be quite a weird thing to explain and I don’t think it would be helpful. It’s my problem to deal with, with help from all you lot.
Adam,
I cringe to think of all the things I’ve done, either to impress, or to get closer to, LO. They can all be viewed entirely innocently, but in the light of the motivation behind them, they are serious misdemeanours.
Adam,
You make my job too easy.
https://youtu.be/3MVK8aXkKAI?feature=shared
“For me it was changing my wardrobe to get her attention.”
Don’t feel bad @Adam.
I did the same thing for LO too. Bought clothes that made me look younger, primped and man-scaped every day. Wore cologne and probably over-did it.. Anything to maybe appeal to her. Even if it was only a little..
Dear Limerent Giraffe,
“Part of the issue here is that LO is just super nice, civilised, kind and talks in a way that is crack cocaine to my bruised inner child, like someone being nice to me sets me off. I think i need therapy!”
This is a very good bit of insight. Limerence struck me when I was already unhappy and I needes to escape into fantasy. I managed to dray myself out of it, but only after going all the way in, rumination, intrusive thoughts, non-stop thinking about him every second of tbe day and night, no sleep etc.
It sounds as though you are not that deep yet so I urge you to not indulge the fantasies. That’s going to make it harder to recover.
B
Thankyou Bewitched, good advice. I think it was indulging fantasies in the first place that got me to this stage, they are now off limits. Summer holidays coming up so 6 weeks of NC and a chance to concentrate on wife and family.
Lady Marcia,
I canāt believe that I had this message finished before 9am, but could not find time to edit it and send it all day, due to the āurgentā business and more medical check up for pro-surgery approval. (A couple of blood index canāt be shown in color Red). Still more to be done over the next couple of day until 16th afternoon.
āSir š¦ clings and crawls on the LwL wallsāāØThatās what reptiles do! ā
Itās so better for him (than swimming in his own tears), to has fun movements and fun šŗšæ in his skinny š š¤ š
āØāMaybe I should watch the movie since Richard Burton is in it. Although thatās not one of his luscious roles. He was in bad health by then.ā
Yes, I think the movie ā1984ā would give you a sense of horror when living under the Big Brother. John Hart is great (he has air of my Dad)! Julia is feisty.
āYes, acquiring material things satisfies only until the next material thing is spotted and wanted. All you do is feed the beast, who is never not hungry.ā
Yet the society encourages it for its economy, and the flashy culture has made it seemingly true ā the more, the better/merrier. āThe enough is as good as a feastā (from both the ancient civilzation) has long gone with wind of industrialization! But few people with wealth still choose to live with the ancient wisdom of both the West and East.
āMaybe thatās why they didnāt want to talk about themselves. I mean, maybe why your mom wouldnāt answer questions about the past. ā
Definitely possible! To recall traumas could trigger anyone, unless one is totally healed from them. There are collective traumas in COO at the national level, regardless of oneās social (including high rank officials) and economic status. Some fears are still going on underneath the flashy economy surface, one could never relax over there at a deep level, even if youāre billionaire or hold a high position in government.
āYou can see it in her photos, even when older. She was a striking woman. I donāt mean conventionally beautiful but compelling. ā
Thatās like my French professor (not using any makeup and spent 1 hours in the pool every single day), who striking but not conventionally beautiful in her physical features. Some ordinary French womenās style and confidence are ābreathtakingā on the street.
āI agree. Theyāre very emotional. Very intense. The sex is part of it, but itās all wrapped up in her experience as a whole. ā
Which made her journals more memorable to ārightā readers.
āYes, this I could definitely understand. I think he told her heād never been in love with a womanās mind. ā
āIn loveā with another mind, as well as its body, could make a deeper and lasting chemical reaction in oneās mind and soul. In this dynamic, the lover is luckier than the beloved, because the glorious ācollisionā impact is within him.
I still got a sense that her emotions were a bit unstable due to their intensity and fluidity, shared her husband and her lovers. Perhaps, sheās also searching for the momentary highs, which cannot be sustained in loving just one person? Nonetheless, she sounds like šÆ in each amorous interactions, no matter with whom, based on journals and the movie.
āWell, the ideal would be to have the limerence and the mental connection. ā
If limerence inspires long-lived intellect and artistic creativity, not just temporary reveries and uncontrollable mind, then masterpieces in books, music, arts, etc. are produced, as we already discussed last year. Dante wrote his āinfernoā after meeting Beatrice 31 years for the first time, not immediately afterwards. I agree limerence dipped or soaked in a deep mental connection is the ideal.
āYes, I remember reading her discussion with Henry about June. A woman with no core who used her beauty to manipulate. ā
Itās countless ādownfallsā of beautiful yet insecure women around the world. Their beauty does not become their valuable asset for the supposed confidence or happiness, but a source of vanity and constant anxiety and mental pains.
[āI understand. I donāt care about receiving gifts much (but giving the way too much, small but meaningful ones) , but WORDS accompanied by ACTS of service.āāØNone of these means much to me. Words probably the least. As you always write, words mean little without action. ]
Well, selecting gifts involves oneās observing attention and care for the recipient, words BACKED UP by actions are truthful and trustworthy. Carefully chosen girfs and sincere words both carry emotional meaning to me. I did/do not NEED to express myself and to be heard all the time, which also relies on who is the able listener, only a chosen, close, and trustworthy friend.
āI donāt see Emotional as saying āI love you,ā though I suppose it could be. To me, itās support. I tell you I have a job interview coming up in 5 days and you remember and ask me how it went. If someone did that for me, Iād do whatever they wanted. ā
Of course, to remember othersā details and act accordingly shows oneās caring emotions and mental support. āI love youā, in word or action, is just one of the examples to show oneās amorous affection.
āI agree. I donāt mind texting, but texting with no phone calls if you donāt see the person often feels like talking to someone disembodied, out in the ether. ā
The difference between texting without phone calls and rambling here in LwL without face or voice is ONLY the length and content of rambling. I donāt know about other posters, but to me, the quantity and quality of communications heavily influence oneās sense of feeling connected or not, dominantly in mind and in spirit.
āI have asked that question repeatedly and am still waiting for an answer. But itās sometimes to single limerents, too. WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM YOUR LO? !! ā
Are you ASKING me or all singles here šāTo me personally, itās Romance /Friendship combined through independent and shared intellectual and creative activities, much more than daily living necessities. If I canāt be inspired and feel supported by LO in body, mind, and soul, Iād choose to be in my own company. Iāve done so for a long timeā¦.
āThatās all of my friendships now. Scattered. Floating in and out. ā
Thatās a part of modern living in this era, beyond our control. So Iām not terribly bothered by it, I have to accept it with peace; and then find some fulfillment in my sole endeavors. I told you before that my best friends in childhood and youth were books. š
āI donāt know if I revealed all of me. And itās not like every time something happened, I felt understood. But as a general rule , I felt known and that I knew them. ā
I think feeling heard, known, and validated is vitally important during oneās development ā childhood and youth, it should not be so much in mature adulthood. When such a need is unmet during oneās developmental stages, it becomes some sort of Longing in oneās adulthood. A secure and mature adult, such as an ample Stoic, has much less or even no such a need, except genuine appreciations when compliments or validations are given.
āThatās interesting. You wanted to argue? #RUDE ā
š¤. It was not I wanted to argue, but I was eager to finish responding the remaining parts and I felt those jammed words and sentences were in a rush to get out of my mouth, but they couldnāt come out in a more logical order in the dream, which made me vexed and ārudeā in the dream.
āMy family does the same thing. I can bring stuff up but they display no interest, sympathy or empathy. ā
My motherās face literally looks like a wall even when I tell her logistical stuff and facts, so I have to constantly check whether sheās heard me, since her hearing has been so poor. Some times she said she heard, but actually did NOT ā she didnāt want to acknowledge (or felt embarrassed about) her inability to hear particularly during a family gathering. I only found out this phenomenon when she did not follow the instruction and her matters did not get handled correctly or at all, which posed health or safety hazards to herself. That made me lose patience and temper frequently! Donāt pretend for an egoās sake!
āAnd I did. Iām not going to push the issue. But I canāt feel close to someone I canāt talk to on a personal level. ā
Of course not. But for me, even if feeling personal, I could only talk about certain things to one person, and other stuff to another. Otherwise, my Russian gf and I would literally twist each otherās head off, due to our sharp differences in so many issues!
āThatās true. I took for granted Iād have them all my life, but I donāt know if Iāll have another one. Now you can see why the friendships I have now feel a bit anemic. ā
By comparison, sure. š Itās easier to make friends during oneās schooling from K to college, or extracurricular classes.
āNow can you see why I wasnāt necessarily looking to romantic relationships for this? ā
Again romance without friendship to me feels distanced and even alien. I can have friendship without romance, but I couldnāt have a mediocre (forget about happy) romance without a trustworthy friendship. It made me feel disconnected even if they were inside meā¦ š I felt this repeatedly with LO #5 & #6, which helped me resist the huge temptation in LE7. I will not change on this principle and prepare to die alone, which may happen next weekāļø
āBut were you close with your LOs and your SOs? Did you reveal yourself to them?ā
I tried to reveal myself to them and make a deeper connection, but they were not truly interested, except āsteamy romanceā, the one you often described or many limerentsā here (sub)consciously pursue(d) in the head (or in their reality). Itās unsatisfactory, even disrespectful, and definitely invalidating to me! If my mind canāt be involved, appreciated, and shared; then that romance has little true value to meāļø
ā The problem with that is ā¦ if you repress stuff too long, it has a tendency to bust out! Limerence! ā
Most likely NOT in a place without the type of soil for Romanticism and limerence seeds to grow; the seeds die in dried or damaged land, except few exceptional (with some Western influence). In COO and som Asian cultures, one is not even allowed to have terrible twos! If you donāt trust me, go to North Korea to live there just for a 3 months ā¼ļø Again, watch ā1984ā.
āHa! Not emotional wisdom, no. This is all a guess on my part, but heās a really cerebral guy. Very much focused on his business and success. So he wants a partner who brings out (Iām gagging here a little bit because I donāt find him appealing) his sexual/sensual side.ā
Letās see how long it will lastā¦š
āOk. I have a lot of selves that are repressed. ā
I have all 16 selves merged/liberated and present now after the Longing was gone, except I have no one to practice/give Self #16.
āSo is it more an arranged marriage or marriage based on compatibility (shared values, goals, etc.)?ā
Not much arranged marriage anymore after 1949, but ones dominantly on compatibility.
āI would agree with that, and some people donāt seem to have much of a need for romance.
Exactly. They live well with their type of fulfillment, acquired solely or by friendships.
āI love it! I wasnāt trying to be funny, but Iām glad you laughed. I mean, you could be romantic in your artistic taste, your views about a job, etc. Itās not always romantic about romance.ā
Oh, dear! I could be romantic in hanging my fresh laundry on a cloth line under the afternoon hot Sun (In France and COO), and be 95% Stoic š with a hot LO āļøš¤ š
āI also like how he slowly realizes heās been a selfish ass and he changes. ā
Yes! A person can change, after suffering enough āmiseriesā!
[In a bit of surreal sense?āāØNo. More like ā¦ Iām here, Iām still breathing. But thatās about it. ]
Like your mind, heart, and spirit are somewhere else a little bitā
āWell, the moments are the highlights. Theyāre the highpoints of life.
Well, the moments are the highlights when one values, or gives meanings to their short-lived contents. I had a lot of moments, but later some became less of āhigh-pointsā anymore, or changed into ālow-pointsā, due to the overall negative sides of that whole experience/interaction.
āWell, thatās the issue. Sometimes you can have āmomentsā with someone who will be steady in your life. A āmomentā might be that you go on a great vacation with them. ā
Usually anticipation of having moments (going a great vacation) exceeds the moments themselves, in which one could find unwanted truthsā¦ then disappointments, or even heartbreakingā¦ (I speak from my own experience, of course!)
āBut then there are times when you just have a moment with someone and it has no connection to anything else. Like LO-lite. Iām still undecided if having the moment was worth the fallout.ā
I think I can guess/imagine where you were, and I personally would feel haunted, disconnected, and even surreal without a continuity. I resisted the similar temptation in the last LE.ā¦
āWhat made them dismal?ā
Not much realistic interactions, smaller crushing, and their presence did not hijack my neural system like ET.
āWell, thatās my whole point. How do you find someone who has all of that and someone youāre also attracted to?ā
I think such an expectation and high standards would lead one to a long-term lonely life. One needs to compromise in some aspects of a workable relationship/friendship. Each partner of a duel dance has his/her shortcomings to the tango; good-enough with substantial quality is okay.
āBut what would you look for if you were looking for a long-term partner? You said you were looking for a solid friendship. Wouldnāt the person have qualities youād be looking for?ā
First of all, Iām NOT actively LOOKING FOR a LTR partner. Like most of COO people, I am utterly fatalistic on this. One cannot make it a PROJECT but through unpretentious, purposefully living. Thatās my primary stand in relationship for the most of my life, except that a short period of trying dating apps; we canāt even judge/assess anything unless we know/experience what it is! (You just had another trial of it recentlyā¦)
Secondly, āsolidā to me means the quality of interactions/connecting, without me or the other person keeping our physical or mental eyes scanning around while interacting/connecting with each other. In other words, no HALF trying or HALF relating, which would KILL any sprouts and flower petals of a friendship/relationship!
Thirdly, If you insist on naming some human qualities, then as I said earlier, I would want (NOT NEED /DEMAND) to feel inspirited, encouraged to explore the world, at large or small, intellectually, artistically, and romantically ā perhaps set up a morning coffee cup intriguing. When itās with an open-minded, open-hearted, creative person, both sides could grow and journey independently together. The process itself is more important and supposed to be fulfilling than any destination. I hope I can affect the other side in the same waysā¦
āFrench men are āprofessionals.ā
But, their romance may not last long, some prefer short term yet intense romance/relationship. They dislike situationships in general, which makes French more romantic than Americans (this all by proportion, based on my observation). Heart felt romance or romantic behavior is their āBibleā!
āWhat LOs always represent for me. Excitement, escape, sexiness. And I was dissatisfied with where I was in life. So he was a distraction. ā
Escape from WHAT? If you donāt find that out, your agony-Longing would always follow you. Itās not pretty nor healthy to your body, mind, and soul. āSexinessā? You donāt feel sexy without a LO aroundā Or youāre looking for his sexinessā
āWe talk about that but we talk about other stuff, too. Thereās so much to fix and we only have an hour! ā
Thatās why you need to work on your own a lot. I did with my monologues, and got LOās non-judgmental ear. But he did not give any advice or much response. The majority of therapeutic works depends on ONESELF!
āOk. I looked at your list. Probably connection. Heās an affectionate person (non-sexually). Which messed with my head. ā
Iām not quietly clear here how your head was messagedā You mean you canāt deal with his affectionateness? You wanted him to be less affectionate but more romantic and hot? He has a SO, right? With a SO around, could he ever be whatever you want or expect?
āWell, not to choose is a choice itselfāļøā
So would you like to choose yourself or let others choose for youāļø
āWell, I wouldnāt idealize their relationship too much. They were having an affair, so the time they spent together was short, intense and heightened. Just focused on their sexual and mental connection. ā
I donāt idealize their relationship, but wish for that kind of deeper connection, which requires intellectual and artistic quality on both sides, independently and interactivelyā¦.
āShe didnāt have to deal with him every day, day in and day out, like she did her husband. Their relationship was a series of moments. Hard to say if they had tried to be together full-time if it would have worked out.ā
She did not seem to have ignored her husband, either; perhaps a benefit of full-time journal writer. The relationship went in deep and intense between Miller and June was perhaps due to its physical space between them, which allowed each to breathe and create on their own.
To be continued ā Part 4!
Typo:
āwho IS striking but not conventionally beautiful in her physical features.ā
ādue to their intensity and fluidity, shared BY her husband and her lovers. ā
Lady Snow,
“Itās so better for him (than swimming in his own tears), to has fun movements and fun šŗšæ in his skinny š š¤ š”
I confiscated the skinny jeans. š
“āThe enough is as good as a feastā (from both the ancient civilzation) has long gone with wind of industrialization!”
Not sure what you mean.
“Some fears are still going on underneath the flashy economy surface, one could never relax over there at a deep level, even if youāre billionaire or hold a high position in government.”
That keeps people in constant stress, even if low-level stress.
“Which made her journals more memorable to ārightā readers.”
I really like her writing.
“Perhaps, sheās also searching for the momentary highs, which cannot be sustained in loving just one person? Nonetheless, she sounds like šÆ in each amorous interactions”
Yes, she’s all-in in all of her involvements. She is not a casual person.
“Dante wrote his āinfernoā after meeting Beatrice 31 years for the first time, not immediately afterwards. I agree limerence dipped or soaked in a deep mental connection is the ideal.”
Thirty-one years after he met her?
“Well, selecting gifts involves oneās observing attention and care for the recipient”
It depends on what is given. Sometimes people don’t give gifts specifically attuned to the recipient. Have you never gotten a gift from someone and thought to yourself: Why did you buy this for me? Have you met me? š
“The difference between texting without phone calls and rambling here in LwL without face or voice is ONLY the length and content of rambling. I donāt know about other posters, but to me, the quantity and quality of communications heavily influence oneās sense of feeling connected or not, dominantly in mind and in spirit.”
Yes, that’s true. But you and I are chattier than most. š
“Are you ASKING me or all singles here šā”
Both. Even when both people are single, the limerent often makes no moves. I don’t understand it. I think I’ve had about 6 big LEs, and I’ve made some kind of move with all of them (or they made the move). (Not all of my LOs had partners.)
“To me personally, itās Romance /Friendship combined through independent and shared intellectual and creative activities, much more than daily living necessities.”
Well, yes, but you didn’t take the opportunity with your last LO. I’m not saying you should have.
” If I canāt be inspired and feel supported by LO in body, mind, and soul, Iād choose to be in my own company. Iāve done so for a long timeā¦.”
I was talking more about past LO situations. Not ones in the future.
“Thatās a part of modern living in this era, beyond our control. ”
It’s that people don’t value friendship enough to be consistent. I currently have one friend who makes an effort to be consistent.
“I have to accept it with peace; and then find some fulfillment in my sole endeavors.”
I’m over the solo endeavors. I’ve had plenty of them. š
“I think feeling heard, known, and validated is vitally important during oneās development ā childhood and youth, it should not be so much in mature adulthood. ”
I disagree. I think it’s a basic need most people have. No matter what age.
“A secure and mature adult, such as an ample Stoic, has much less or even no such a need”
That sounds like repression to me.
“but they couldnāt come out in a more logical order in the dream, which made me vexed and ārudeā in the dream.”
I was teasing you. I don’t think you’re rude. š
“My motherās face literally looks like a wall”
My family is the same! I could tell them I’d lost all my limbs and I’d get the same reaction as asking them to pass me the ketchup! š
“I only found out this phenomenon when she did not follow the instruction and her matters did not get handled correctly or at all, which posed health or safety hazards to herself. That made me lose patience and temper frequently! Donāt pretend for an egoās sake!”
That would be frustrating.
“Of course not. But for me, even if feeling personal, I could only talk about certain things to one person, and other stuff to another.”
Well, someone isn’t going to understand everything about you. And some people are better at hearing/responding to certain things.
“By comparison, sure. š Itās easier to make friends during oneās schooling from K to college, or extracurricular classes.”
The last great friend I made was when I was in my early 40s. So not necessarily.
” I felt this repeatedly with LO #5 & #6, which helped me resist the huge temptation in LE7. I will not change on this principle and prepare to die alone, which may happen next weekāļø”
I hope not! Let’s think positively! You WILL be here next week. š
“I tried to reveal myself to them and make a deeper connection, but they were not truly interested, except āsteamy romanceā, the one you often described or many limerentsā here (sub)consciously pursue(d) in the head (or in their reality). Itās unsatisfactory, even disrespectful, and definitely invalidating to me! If my mind canāt be involved, appreciated, and shared; then that romance has little true value to meāļø”
I agree with you. As I’m slowly coming around to understand. The romance without any kind of depth to it, without any foundation behind it, is vacant.
“Most likely NOT in a place without the type of soil for Romanticism and limerence seeds to grow”
I was referring to the West. I think that’s what limerence is for a lot of people. It’s some kind of unmet need, something that’s been repressed. (I’m speaking very generally.)
“Letās see how long it will lastā¦š”
If it doesn’t, he’ll have no shortage of options since he has so much money.
“I have all 16 selves merged/liberated and present now after the Longing was gone, except I have no one to practice/give Self #16.”
Which one is 16?
“Not much arranged marriage anymore after 1949, but ones dominantly on compatibility.”
I mean, ultimately, that’s probably better. But … and this is a big but … if you marry someone and plan to remain faithful, he will be your ONLY sexual outlet. So if you’re not feeling it strongly on a physical level, you’ll either look elsewhere or resent having to have sex with him. That’s the problem.
“and be 95% Stoic š with a hot LO āļøš¤ š”
How is one Stoic around an LO? š
“Like your mind, heart, and spirit are somewhere else a little bitā”
No. I feel checked out. Like I’m going through the motions. I’m feeling a bit better today, though.
“I had a lot of moments, but later some became less of āhigh-pointsā anymore, or changed into ālow-pointsā, due to the overall negative sides of that whole experience/interaction.”
Yes, that can happen. Was the moment worth the pain?
“Usually anticipation of having moments (going a great vacation) exceeds the moments themselves, in which one could find unwanted truthsā¦ then disappointments, or even heartbreakingā¦ (I speak from my own experience, of course!)”
True. Or a great line in a play I read … Nothin’s as pretty in your hands as it was in your head! š
“I think I can guess/imagine where you were, and I personally would feel haunted, disconnected, and even surreal without a continuity. I resisted the similar temptation in the last LE.ā¦”
Today I’m glad I had the experience with LO-lite. There were some really hot moments. I don’t know how I’ll feel tomorrow. š
” and their presence did not hijack my neural system like ET.”
Did you want your neural system hijacked ? š
“good-enough with substantial quality is okay.”
That sounds depressing.
“One cannot make it a PROJECT but through unpretentious, purposefully living.”
I think if you want it, you have to make it a priority. You have to work at finding it. Just like if I wanted to get a new job. I’d need to look for it. A partner is probably not going to fall into your lap. Not once you get past the age of 30 or 35.
“Thatās my primary stand in relationship for the most of my life, except that a short period of trying dating apps”
I didn’t care for the apps. I am trying to get out more/be more social. Not with the sole goal of meeting men, but I’m not opposed to it. It’s not going to show up at my door. Friendships and/or romance.
“Secondly, āsolidā to me means the quality of interactions/connecting, without me or the other person keeping our physical or mental eyes scanning around while interacting/connecting with each other. In other words, no HALF trying or HALF relating, which would KILL any sprouts and flower petals of a friendship/relationship!”
I’m not entirely sure what it is we’re talking about here. I’ve lost the thread. š
“But, their romance may not last long, some prefer short term yet intense romance/relationship. They dislike situationships in general, which makes French more romantic than Americans (this all by proportion, based on my observation). Heart felt romance or romantic behavior is their āBibleā!”
Yeah, but to me, personally, if they know it will be short term, it’s really not much different than a situationship.
“Escape from WHAT?”
The gray, flannelness of every day life. I’m quoting the song “Lady Marmalade” by Labelle? The guy in the song hooks up with a sex worker, who completely turns him out. š
Afterward …
“Now he’s at home doing nine to five
Living his gray flannel life
But when he turns off to sleep, old memories creep
More, more, more”
“āSexinessā? You donāt feel sexy without a LO aroundā”
You mean do I get up in the morning and think I’m sexy? Or do I feel sexy? Not really. I suppose on some level I was looking for passion.
“Thatās why you need to work on your own a lot. I did with my monologues, and got LOās non-judgmental ear. But he did not give any advice or much response. The majority of therapeutic works depends on ONESELF!”
It does. But a good therapist will say things to kind of guide the journey.
“Iām not quietly clear here how your head was messagedā”
“Messed” with. Not “messaged.” Someone being affectionate and then being able to shut it off. That messed with my head. Did it have no effect on him?
“You wanted him to be less affectionate but more romantic and hot?”
No
“He has a SO, right? With a SO around, could he ever be whatever you want or expect?”
Well, probably not.
“So would you like to choose yourself or let others choose for youāļø”
Depends on what we’re talking about. Sometimes I get tired of having to make all the choices. Sometimes (and I certainly don’t mean all the time but every so often) it’s nice to have someone tell you want to do.
“She did not seem to have ignored her husband, either; perhaps a benefit of full-time journal writer.”
She was able to be a full-time writer because her husband supported her. So her husband was the gray flannel life. In the book I read, she is a bit annoyed he’s a banker. It kind of bores her, though I do think she loves him. But without him, how would she have lived? Meanwhile, she’s off having hot affairs with other people. I wouldn’t have put up with it.
Lady Marcia,
āI confiscated the skinny jeans. ā
Holalaā¦! Then what Sir š¦ is on nowadays? How is he going to lure LFās flickering glances or fickle gazes? š¤
[āThe enough is as good as a feastā (from both the ancient civilzation) has long gone with wind of industrialization!āāØNot sure what you mean.]
It means āOne who knows contentment is always happyā, or āHappiness lies in satisfactionā, or āA contented mind is a perpetual feast.” Itās deeply psychological. Modern people (since after WWII), young or old, seldom feel content no matter what and how much theyāve acquired. š
[āWhich made her journals more memorable to ārightā readers.āāØI really like her writing. ]
I bet most moralists would hate her writing.
āYes, sheās all-in in all of her involvements. She is not a casual person. ā
That makes her affairs with each of her lovers NOT situation-ship.
āThirty-one years after he met her? ā
Yes. Dante was born in 1265, met Beatrice the first time in 1274, 2nd time in 1283, married in 1285, she died in 1290, and he began āInfernoā between 1304-1307, after he married and had his own children. He was 9 years old when he first met Beatrice.
āIt depends on what is given. Sometimes people donāt give gifts specifically attuned to the recipient. Have you never gotten a gift from someone and thought to yourself: Why did you buy this for me? Have you met me? ā
Iāve regifted many times š But to close friends and xLOs, my gifts were about 90% unique, even just 4 short purple lines attached to a purchased gift.
āYes, thatās true. But you and I are chattier than most. ā
Thatās because we have āPā in our MBTI traits. I could chat in all sorts of subjects; which, if unknown previously, would be explored by my mind. Thatās what I call an evolving friendship/relationship. If two parties canāt learn and develop something new from their interactions independently together, then forget about its possibility to lastā¼ļø
āBoth. Even when both people are single, the limerent often makes no moves. I donāt understand it. I think Iāve had about 6 big LEs, and Iāve made some kind of move with all of them (or they made the move). (Not all of my LOs had partners.)ā
I guess they have their own imagined or realistic concerns. We cannot assume weāre āperfectlyā suitable to all our glimmered LOs, right? Using my analogy, a ballet dancer likes a tango one, but they cantā tango or ballet together!
āWell, yes, but you didnāt take the opportunity with your last LO. Iām not saying you should have. ā
Because he was not even 50% of a Henry Millerā¦ much more like that Ashley in GWW.
[ā If I canāt be inspired and feel supported by LO in body, mind, and soul, Iād choose to be in my own company. Iāve done so for a long timeā¦.āāØI was talking more about past LO situations. Not ones in the future. ]
Of course, Iām focusing on now and future. For the past, I donāt want to tell here how long Iāve gone abstinence (with a partner) š¤
āItās that people donāt value friendship enough to be consistent. I currently have one friend who makes an effort to be consistent. ā
Sadly true! Youāre lucky and must be highly attractive to have someone making effort to be your consistent friend. Congratulation!
āIām over the solo endeavors. Iāve had plenty of them. ā
I prefer solo and dual to be balanced. Sometimes I did not have choice but going solo, which is fine. My mind can be entertained by endless creative and artistic learning. Now, I amāon stageā with you and multiple š» š» š»ā¦.
āI disagree. I think itās a basic need most people have. No matter what age. ā
I disagree with your disagreement. Thatās because most people still have that LONGING. Tell me what you think after the longing is gone in YOU, one day soon, I hope! šæ
āA secure and mature adult, such as an ample Stoic, has much less or even no such a needāāØThat sounds like repression to me.ā
Again, because you have that Longing, so you canāt imagine the joy when such a need is gone! To desire something is okay, but being NEEDY of it (implying one cannot live without it) is mentally unhealthy and agonizing.
āI was teasing you. I donāt think youāre rude. ā
I knew you were teasing me! š¤ If one can get offended by someone elseās dreams, then that person must have been leading a quite joyless lifeā¦.
Dreams ONLY tell something psychological or mental states about the dreamer, no one else. I imagine that someone might have dreamed to have murdered me in their dreamsā¦ š¤ thatās entirely okay š āļø
āØāThe last great friend I made was when I was in my early 40s. So not necessarily. ā
Never necessarily in any socializing matters; there are always exceptions. You must be extraordinary in some aspects to your friendāļø
ā I hope not! Letās think positively! You WILL be here next week. ā
I do hope positively. But I prepare for the worst. Back in 2020, I settled all aftermath matters (a specific type of coffin, a rosy-colored long dress, the burial ground, a memorial service, and I already partially paid for all of them) should that 1% take place now or later, everything needed would be in place. Iām truly a control-freakāļøš«£ š
āI agree with you. As Iām slowly coming around to understand. The romance without any kind of depth to it, without any foundation behind it, is vacant.ā
Iām very glad to hear that youāve come to such a realization. š¤
āI was referring to the West. I think thatās what limerence is for a lot of people. Itās some kind of unmet need, something thatās been repressed. (Iām speaking very generally.)ā
Yes. Also the Western soil of romance is fertilized too much with Romanticism. šµāš«š
[āLetās see how long it will lastā¦āāØIf it doesnāt, heāll have no shortage of options since he has so much money.]
Well, we all know that Money canāt buy oneās able mind and devoted heart!
āWhich one is 16? ā
Self #16 in IFY: Connection, love.
Currently I donāt have a SO or BP and am utterly unable to fall in love/limerence with any house š āļøš¤
āI mean, ultimately, thatās probably better. But ā¦ and this is a big but ā¦ if you marry someone and plan to remain faithful, he will be your ONLY sexual outlet. So if youāre not feeling it strongly on a physical level, youāll either look elsewhere or resent having to have sex with him. Thatās the problem. ā
Disagree. Not a problem, if you excel, through practice, in that sexual connection with a BP- beloved person! Itās āWRONGā to think and feel sexual attraction or sexual connection lies dominantly on novelty. Fisherās MRI reports have indicted that some couples stay truly āin loveā after 25 years.
āHow is one Stoic around an LO?
I used the wrong term last time; it should be being Stoic with hot BP. Being Stoic with them means:
1. You expect a breakup could take place anytime for whatever reasons or due to whichever side.
2. You still put your šÆ effort in with joy, the qualified effort brings meanings to energize your beautiful, attractive pursuit.
3. Calmly and rationally watch what BP does and how.
4. If BP doesnāt reciprocate more and less on your hoped, minimum level, or put in as much effort as you do, then leave. Hope or devoted affection will not change another person.
5. If you and BP are in a shortage in some areas, but both willing to learn from and teach each other, then work together with a mental preparation ā it may still not work out.
Itās just my theory, and Iām applying it in building possible friendships nowadaysā¦.
āNo. I feel checked out. Like Iām going through the motions. Iām feeling a bit better today, though.ā
Yeah, thatās not a good feeling. Iām glad that youāre feeing better yesterday and hope you feel a bit better each day henceforth.
āYes, that can happen. Was the moment worth the pain?ā
Some was worth, some was disastrous. Thatās why I made my oath, and would not break it for any half-hearted, clumsy ādancerā.
āTrue. Or a great line in a play I read ā¦ Nothinās as pretty in your hands as it was in your head! ā
There are a lot great lyric lines, as well as wise idioms, in the West, but few people pay close attention or follow their philosophical or/and psychological truths.
āToday Iām glad I had the experience with LO-lite. There were some really hot moments. I donāt know how Iāll feel tomorrow. ā
Thatās the dilemma of our perpetually changing moods, heavily affected by the interactionās nature. It takes time to settle oneās final sentiment. I had doubted regrets in my last LE, but later resulted in NO REGRETS. Iām too greedy of another devoted mind and soul even just for momentsāļø š
āDid you want your neural system hijacked ? ā
š NOT! It could even repress the sexual drive!
[āgood-enough with substantial quality is okay.āāØThat sounds depressing. ]
Because you still have that Longing. Expecting or desiring more than oneās reality could possibly bring true disappointment and depression. Again, contentment brings joy/happiness, so lacking in the West and increasing in the Eastā¼ļø ā¹ļø
āI think if you want it, you have to make it a priority. You have to work at finding it.ā
Not in the relationship domain. Sorry, no one can ācorruptā my fatalism on this!
āJust like if I wanted to get a new job. Iād need to look for it. A partner is probably not going to fall into your lap. Not once you get past the age of 30 or 35. ā
Getting a desired BP is not looking for a professional āJOBāā he or she is a breathing person! And Iām šÆ NOT waiting for any BP to knock at my door.
āI am trying to get out more/be more social. Not with the sole goal of meeting men, but Iām not opposed to it. Itās not going to show up at my door. Friendships and/or romance. ā
Thatās a reasonable mindset. I really wish you good lucks with your search! Iām prepared NOT to find anyone with my passivity ā only half Stoic here.
[āSecondly, āsolidā to me means the quality of interactions/connecting, without me or the other person keeping our physical or mental eyes scanning around while interacting/connecting with each other. In other words, no HALF trying or HALF relating, which would KILL any sprouts and flower petals of a friendship/relationship!ā]
āØāIām not entirely sure what it is weāre talking about here. Iāve lost the thread. ā ]
We were talking about what.how building āsolid friendship/relationshipā means to me.
āYeah, but to me, personally, if they know it will be short term, itās really not much different than a situationship.ā
No, they donāt KNOW if itās going to be a short term, but they šÆ pursue all-in romance like no tomorrow, while maybe PREPARING it might be a short term.
āThe gray, flannelness of every day life. Iām quoting the song āLady Marmaladeā by Labelle? The guy in the song hooks up with a sex worker, who completely turns him out. ā
Afterward ā¦āØāNow heās at home doing nine to fiveāØLiving his gray flannel lifeāØBut when he turns off to sleep, old memories creepāØMore, more, moreā
This kind of acts of ārocketing high and crushing lowā has happened since the dawn of human history for thousands years, Iām positive; but itās not so highly gloried or demoralized/dismissed, through literature, music, and media, in the East like in the Western in the past century ā the highly sexualized culture.
On the other hand, if a guy/girl spends his every evening in Moulin Rouge, heād be dead before 40! Moreover, Itās by the sharp contrast of grey and rouge, the old āmemories creepā. If always rouge, it gets monotonous. If an illicit/unprescribed drug is never tried (absolutely in my own case), then no memories to be crept! š
Personally even in theory, Iād never put myself in the position of an independent Lady Marmalade, no matter what is offered to me, because there would not be the kind of fulfilling connection I desire!
āYou mean do I get up in the morning and think Iām sexy? Or do I feel sexy? Not really. I suppose on some level I was looking for passion. ā
Understandable. Everyone feels sexier while beheld by another pair of affectionate or deeply loving eyes. Some seek those highly charged, desirous, wolfie eyes, I instinctively and intuitively abhor them! š
āBut a good therapist will say things to kind of guide the journey.
Absolutely! A therapist who asks right questions (guide) and let his/her clients answer themselves is a good one.
āØāSomeone being affectionate and then being able to shut it off. That messed with my head. Did it have no effect on him?ā
That would turn me upside down as well. Again, such a foresight also helped me resist the temptation in my last LE.
āDepends on what weāre talking about. Sometimes I get tired of having to make all the choices. Sometimes (and I certainly donāt mean all the time but every so often) itās nice to have someone tell you want to do. ā
You just said in an earlier post thatās you might not even follow your doctorsā advice! So you would let someone else tell you want to do sometimes, in a romantic relationship/friendship? I guess itās a sort of compromise in a duel dance? I can see its plausibility.
āShe was able to be a full-time writer because her husband supported her. So her husband was the gray flannel life. ā
I feel bad for her husband, but he might be okay with her artistās way of dealing with others. My lady friend (might have had a bit crush on me) wanted to follow me alone to travel to COO back in 2017. I asked whether itās okay with her bubbie, she answered, āheās an artist.ā I did not quite understand what it meant (still not). She was so eager and serious, and I got concerned not knowing how to turn her down. Then, my Dadās tragic news arrived, so I left the country within 48 hours.
āIn the book I read, she is a bit annoyed heās a banker. It kind of bores her, though I do think she loves him. But without him, how would she have lived? ā
From what I read, she did love her husband while dealing with Miller or other lovers. She might be a polygamist.
āMeanwhile, sheās off having hot affairs with other people. I wouldnāt have put up with it.ā
But to switch sex here, LO & LO-lite would be in Anais Nin position; and you one of āother peopleā, then how would you feel for the respective SO of LO and LO-lite? Would it be okay if SO comes after you, yell at you, or haunt you in your dreams?
Lady Snow,
“Then what Sir š¦ is on nowadays? How is he going to lure LFās flickering glances or fickle gazes? š¤”
Something tells me he’ll have a better chance if he DOESN’T wear the skinny jeans. š
“I bet most moralists would hate her writing.”
Well, she is a talented writer, whether people like the topics/themes or not.
“That makes her affairs with each of her lovers NOT situation-ship.”
I don’t agree. To me, a “situation-ship” is something with no commitment. You can’t really commit to an affair; she’s already committed to someone else, as is Henry Miller. And she’s having simultaneous affairs. That doesn’t mean the affairs don’t mean anything. But they’re limited by their very nature.
“she died in 1290, and he began āInfernoā between 1304-1307, after he married and had his own children. He was 9 years old when he first met Beatrice.”
So he remarried and had kids? I guess he never married Beatrice ?
“Iāve regifted many times š”
Me, too. People sometimes buy you stuff they’d want themselves!
” If two parties canāt learn and develop something new from their interactions independently together, then forget about its possibility to lastā¼ļø”
I agree. You have to continue to bring new things to the table.
“I guess they have their own imagined or realistic concerns. ”
I think they want to feel the feelings and not try to have anything in reality with the LO.
“We cannot assume weāre āperfectlyā suitable to all our glimmered LOs, right?”
I didn’t necessarily assume that. I just felt strongly myself and wasn’t going to not act on the feelings. Or try to. If I was given some level of encouragement.
“Because he was not even 50% of a Henry Millerā¦ much more like that Ashley in GWW.”
You mean wishy-washy?
“For the past, I donāt want to tell here how long Iāve gone abstinence (with a partner) š¤”
Why were you abstinent if you had a partner?
“Sadly true! Youāre lucky and must be highly attractive to have someone making effort to be your consistent friend. Congratulation!”
She’s been very good to me (this is my new friend) and I hope I’ve been good to her. She helps me a little; I help her.
“Now, I amāon stageā with you and multiple š» š» š»ā¦.”
I do enjoy our chats! š
“I disagree with your disagreement. Thatās because most people still have that LONGING. Tell me what you think after the longing is gone in YOU, one day soon, I hope! šæ”
I was just watching one of my male dating coaches. His site on YouTube is called Mindful Attraction. In one of his videos, he talks about how people fall in love when they feel they have a lack. They’re looking for something. Often, it’s validation. And I think that’s true. You have to want something in order to bond. Whether it’s platonic friendship or romance/friendship. It all falls under the same umbrella.
“To desire something is okay, but being NEEDY of it (implying one cannot live without it) is mentally unhealthy and agonizing.”
Where did I write you can’t live without it? š
“Dreams ONLY tell something psychological or mental states about the dreamer, no one else. I imagine that someone might have dreamed to have murdered me in their dreamsā¦”
I hope not. š
“You must be extraordinary in some aspects to your friendāļø”
We’re not that tight anymore. That friendship frayed because … something more important took her attention. But she needed friendship at the time in her life; so did I, and we clicked as people. Had there been no need, there would have been no friendship.
“Back in 2020, I settled all aftermath matters (a specific type of coffin, a rosy-colored long dress, the burial ground, a memorial service, and I already partially paid for all of them) should that 1% take place now or later, everything needed would be in place. Iām truly a control-freakāļøš«£ š”
You are. š On some level, that’s good for the people left behind who would have to take care of your arrangements. You’re organized and not dumping everything on them. It’s considerate. But for me … I always think … what do I care what happens after I’m gone? I won’t be here anyway.
“Well, we all know that Money canāt buy oneās able mind and devoted heart!”
You are correct. Money can buy a lot … but not true love and desire.
“Self #16 in IFY: Connection, love.
Currently I donāt have a SO or BP and am utterly unable to fall in love/limerence with any house š āļøš¤”
I don’t think connection/love always has to be with an SO. There is friendship and family (for those lucky people :)).
“Disagree. Not a problem, if you excel, through practice, in that sexual connection with a BP- beloved person! Itās āWRONGā to think and feel sexual attraction or sexual connection lies dominantly on novelty.”
I didn’t mean that. I meant that if you prioritize compatibility over physical/sexual attraction … you run the risk of marrying someone you aren’t super into and may down the road not be all that enthusiastic about having sex with repeatedly … for the rest of your days. But … compatibility is what will keep you together in the long run.
“1. You expect a breakup could take place anytime for whatever reasons or due to whichever side.”
I’m sorry. That sounds dreadful. How do you ever get comfortable and feel safe ?
“4. If BP doesnāt reciprocate more and less on your hoped, minimum level, or put in as much effort as you do, then leave. Hope or devoted affection will not change another person.”
ITA
“Yeah, thatās not a good feeling. Iām glad that youāre feeing better yesterday and hope you feel a bit better each day henceforth.”
Thank you. I actually had a nice day today.
“Thatās the dilemma of our perpetually changing moods, heavily affected by the interactionās nature. It takes time to settle oneās final sentiment.”
It’s too recent for me to be totally settled with my impressions of it. But I do regret my LO. I regret all the time I wasted in what was essentially nothing.
“Expecting or desiring more than oneās reality could possibly bring true disappointment and depression.”
I think we always are searching for a little more, striving for a little more. Or else … why not just give up?
“Getting a desired BP is not looking for a professional āJOBāā he or she is a breathing person! ”
It is in that you have to make the effort to get out of the house and meet people.
“Thatās a reasonable mindset. I really wish you good lucks with your search! Iām prepared NOT to find anyone with my passivity ā only half Stoic here.”
Well, that’s what I meant. Being passive won’t bring about results. I mean, it’s possible you could meet someone by doing nothing extra, but it’s not super likely.
“No, they donāt KNOW if itās going to be a short term, but they šÆ pursue all-in romance like no tomorrow, while maybe PREPARING it might be a short term.”
I’m not sure I’m crazy about that. Could be love bombing, and after a month they back way off if they lose interest, which is very confusing for the other person. I’m not saying that you don’t want to show interest, but taking one’s time to get to know the person a bit, realizing that acting “all-in” right away could give the wrong impression and is a bit selfish (someone who does that usually wants the immediate validation), is better.
“On the other hand, if a guy/girl spends his every evening in Moulin Rouge, heād be dead before 40! Moreover, Itās by the sharp contrast of grey and rouge, the old āmemories creepā. If always rouge, it gets monotonous. ”
I don’t think it’s possible to have all rouge all the time. Thus, the “moments.” Or what is rouge initially becomes gray once we get acclimated and used to it. It’s life.
“Some seek those highly charged, desirous, wolfie eyes, I instinctively and intuitively abhor them! š ”
My answer will always be the same … depends on who’s doing the looking. š
“That would turn me upside down as well. ”
That’s exactly what it did.
“You just said in an earlier post thatās you might not even follow your doctorsā advice!”
Not blindly.
“So you would let someone else tell you want to do sometimes, in a romantic relationship/friendship? ”
Yes. One of the things I like about my new friend … she’s a bit take charge. So was LO-lite (about certain things).
“My lady friend (might have had a bit crush on me) wanted to follow me alone to travel to COO back in 2017. I asked whether itās okay with her bubbie, she answered, āheās an artist.ā I did not quite understand what it meant (still not). She was so eager and serious, and I got concerned not knowing how to turn her down. Then, my Dadās tragic news arrived, so I left the country within 48 hours.”
Hmmm … I wonder what she meant. He has side “friendships” as well ?
“From what I read, she did love her husband while dealing with Miller or other lovers. She might be a polygamist.”
I think she did love him. But by being with him, she did have certain advantages — namely emotional and financial security. She could take emotional risks with other men because she had him at home.
“But to switch sex here, LO & LO-lite would be in Anais Nin position; and you one of āother peopleā, then how would you feel for the respective SO of LO and LO-lite?”
Those are hard questions to answer. I’d have to think about that.
“Would it be okay if SO comes after you, yell at you, or haunt you in your dreams?”
I don’t want anyone yelling at me, but I would stay in my lane. I do have a bit of a temper, but I’m not vindictive. I would never purposefully blow up someone’s life.
Lady Marcia,
āWell, she is a talented writer, whether people like the topics/themes or not. ā
A lot of people care about topics/contents more than creative writing skills.
āTo me, a āsituation-shipā is something with no commitment. You canāt really commit to an affair; sheās already committed to someone else, as is Henry Miller. And sheās having simultaneous affairs. That doesnāt mean the affairs donāt mean anything. But theyāre limited by their very nature.ā
I see that our definitions of situation-ship differ in some ways. I consider it as the LEVEL of partnersā affection investment in time, energy, and intensity in the affair or dating situation. A commitment for a SO, in paper or just words, hasnāt really refrained PA/EA affairs for hundreds of years.
āHe was 9 years old when he first met Beatrice.āāØSo he remarried and had kids? I guess he never married Beatrice ? ā
Oh, no! Beatrice Was Danteās idealized LO and Muse. He only met her twice, and then married someone else. But he put his LE affection for her in his immortal work āInfernoā.
āI think they want to feel the feelings and not try to have anything in reality with the LO.ā
Of course, someone would do that; I donāt think thatās all singletons would do with their crusher or LO.
āI didnāt necessarily assume that. I just felt strongly myself and wasnāt going to not act on the feelings. Or try to. If I was given some level of encouragement. ā
Well, youāre a limerent who pays extra attention to your feelings. There are non-limerent tribal people out there. Two days ago, I chatted with my cousin, and sheās completely baffled by people who still pay attention to romance after age of 35-40; she thinks those āemotionalā people are silly. Sheās 48, never married, and I donāt know whether she had romance in the past (weāre not close).
āYou mean wishy-washy?ā
Yep! A wishy-washy Sensor.
āWhy were you abstinent if you had a partner?ā
I never said that. There is a total abstinence or partial one with/from a partner.
āSheās been very good to me (this is my new friend) and I hope Iāve been good to her. She helps me a little; I help her. ā
What kind of help youāre referring here? Emotional/mental or practical ones?
āØāI do enjoy our chats! ā
Thatās the beauty of written chats in depth ā inspirational, therapeutic and creative.
āI was just watching one of my male dating coaches. His site on YouTube is called Mindful Attraction. In one of his videos, he talks about how people fall in love when they feel they have a lack. Theyāre looking for something. Often, itās validation. And I think thatās true. You have to want something in order to bond. Whether itās platonic friendship or romance/friendship. It all falls under the same umbrella.
I agree with the opinion, but not necessarily with āthe want somethingā as a pre-requisition. Nowadays I donāt have any needs for validation from anyone, but I still wish to have ā not actively looking for, good platonic/romantic friendships, so I can share all of what I have with them, without needing anything in return. Of course, I would not turn down but appreciate their willing OFFERs.
[āTo desire something is okay, but being NEEDY of it (implying one cannot live without it) is mentally unhealthy and agonizing.āāØWhere did I write you canāt live without it? ]
Itās the word, āneedā, that often leads me to associating it with āNEEDYā. Need and Want/desire are two different things. COO, Stoic, and Buddhism agree with Maslowās Hierarchy of Needs only on its two bottom levels ā Physiological and Safety Needs. The upper three layers are wants/desires, excellent to have; but without which one can still survive/live okay.
So anytime I heard the word, āneedā, I felt itās something one cannot live without.
āWeāre not that tight anymore. That friendship frayed because ā¦ something more important took her attention. But she needed friendship at the time in her life; so did I, and we clicked as people. Had there been no need, there would have been no friendship.ā
Iām sorry to hear about your frayed friendship. I have friends online or offline, not terribly close, from whom I have absolutely NO needs in any aspects, emotional, mental, or spiritual. Iām self-sufficient (aside from some practicality) without that Longing!
[āIām truly a control-freakā
āYou are. ]
Hey, I meant to be sarcastic! Iāll send you an invite for my own funeral if I have your address now! š
[On some level, thatās good for the people left behind who would have to take care of your arrangements. Youāre organized and not dumping everything on them. Itās considerate. ]
IMP, one should not just live for oneself. If you have any dependent (in COO, that means elderly are included sometimes), youād understand why/how taking a good care of your cared/beloved could gratify your life in some ways.
āBut for me ā¦ I always think ā¦ what do I care what happens after Iām gone? I wonāt be here anyway. ā
Youāre more concerned, legitimately, about yourself and your affairs.
āØ[I donāt think connection/love always has to be with an SO. There is friendship and family (for those lucky people :)).]
I totally agree with you. Then I have all 16 Selves in IFS system.
āI didnāt mean that. I meant that if you prioritize compatibility over physical/sexual attraction ā¦ you run the risk of marrying someone you arenāt super into and may down the road not be all that enthusiastic about having sex with repeatedly ā¦ for the rest of your days. But ā¦ compatibility is what will keep you together in the long run.ā
I know what you mean. In the East, people value compatibility more (with enough initial friendship-beam), and sex is primarily for reproduction and some pleasure. In the West, the āsexualized/sexyā cultures stress the delight/ecstasy of sex, thus novel ones, āforbiddenā ones, not habitual, repeated, or toned down ones.
[ā1. You expect a breakup could take place anytime for whatever reasons or due to whichever side.āāØIām sorry. That sounds dreadful. How do you ever get comfortable and feel safe ?]
Nope. The expectation here just means a mental preparation, like what I have to do for my surgery. Who can see anything in life is totally risk freeāļøA breakups with or without reasons occur all the time, who could say it wouldnāt just land on oneās own head?
Acknowledging it actually could strengthen connection tie, as several LTR āun-contractedā couples (with 1-4 kids) told me so. The āfearā of that possible āwalkoutā (even just 1%) made them to put their best efforts all the time into their relationship.
āItās too recent for me to be totally settled with my impressions of it. But I do regret my LO. I regret all the time I wasted in what was essentially nothing. ā
Iām sorry that you could not get something valuable from your LO/LE. I donāt regret much, since Iāve got some substantial stuff out of my last LE. I treat the suffering I went through as a price to pay for the unexpected beneficial outcome.
āI think we always are searching for a little more, striving for a little more. Or else ā¦ why not just give up?ā
For most people, thatās true. But for children or some wise elderlies, they live and enjoy life naturally like flowers. They are just joyful or content, Without that Longing by nature or by choice. I think Iāve have got there/here, simply be a mostly content Human Being, not Human Doing (of course with some realistic issues.)
āIt is in that you have to make the effort to get out of the house and meet people. ā
Not āhave toā for me. I will not make the effort, but naturally and fearlessly flow with fate in this matter. Without any efforts, Iāve bumped into Glimmers in all sort of unexpected placesā¦ I like that mystery/unpredictability of life: anything is possible tomorrow ā āTomorrow is another day!ā
āWell, thatās what I meant. Being passive wonāt bring about results. I mean, itās possible you could meet someone by doing nothing extra, but itās not super likely.ā
Iām passive on this domain all my life, and had 16 small or big Glimmers. A lot of time, things happened when one lease expected or made least efforts for. You can never convince me on this. Iāll never treat finding a date/bf/LO as a project. Glimmer never did and will NOT take place, definitely for me, when I consciously look for it (e.g. through apps)
[āNo, they donāt KNOW if itās going to be a short term, but they pursue all-in romance like no tomorrow, while maybe PREPARING it might be a short term.ā
āIām not sure Iām crazy about that. Could be love bombing, and after a month they back way off if they lose interest, which is very confusing for the other person. ā]
If you carry my Stoic mindset (#1) to date, then you would not be afraid of love bombing, speficiality, dishonesty or any other uncertainties ā expecting them to happen in any interactions but still putting your efforts, for your own satisfaction. Why do we (not me anymore) always look for the wished outcomes? Why canāt we (exclude me) sincerely take the journal and enjoy it along the way, regardless of possible outcomes?
Iām not judging your way of dating, but it sets yourself up for bigger possibilities of anxiety and pains, because youāre want to and expect a lot certainties, where none can be given during dating, or in life at large.
Also, your worries are largely related to dating scenes. As I said last year, I did/do not want the word ādatingā appear in my platonic/romantic interactions or connections. Just go with flows to see if both sides want to go deeper.
Naming things doesnāt necessarily make them to happen. I can punch LOās face, and name it āmy special affectionā (like š©āš¦° š LEās ātough loveā). There are certain sentiments/emotions you can feel through sincere communications, why so āconcerned about naming themāIMO, thatās a form of uncontrollable control.
āIām not saying that you donāt want to show interest, but taking oneās time to get to know the person a bit, realizing that acting āall-inā right away could give the wrong impression and is a bit selfish (someone who does that usually wants the immediate validation), is better. ā
Youāre talking about dating scenes/strategies, which I would never choose to get into again. In those scenarios, whatever youāre doing is normal, I guess, considering the appās value in the market.
My sense of āall-inā is like that of Nin with Miller, not average Joneses. I donāt think Nin ever used the word ādatingā in her interactions with Miller, or any of her lovers. And her lovers did not require her commitment, mingling with her in whatever was probably enough.
āI donāt think itās possible to have all rouge all the time. Thus, the āmoments.ā Or what is rouge initially becomes gray once we get acclimated and used to it. Itās life. ā
Thatās what I meant. In order to have ārouge momentsā, one needs to have those āgrey zoneā to compare with. If there is no gray rock living, where does ārouge momentsā come fromā
[āSome seek those highly charged, desirous, wolfie eyes, I instinctively and intuitively abhor them! āāØMy answer will always be the same ā¦ depends on whoās doing the looking. ]
None of my 16 Glimmers/LOs had that āabhorring lookingā, or your Butlerās eyes.
āOne of the things I like about my new friend ā¦ sheās a bit take charge. So was LO-lite (about certain things).ā
I could compromise a lot in friendships, since most of matters involved are not life-or-death entwined. But Iād fight back if the other side tries to take charge more than 50% of time. I was and probably still is a rebel type; however, without that Longing, I might be much more relaxed about making decisions on small matters.
āHmmm ā¦ I wonder what she meant. He has side āfriendshipsā as well ?ā
I donāt think so. He is sincere, humble, caring, focused, but much less artistic than she, whose tastes in everything are very creative and artistic. She has a style.
āI think she did love him. But by being with him, she did have certain advantages ā namely emotional and financial security. She could take emotional risks with other men because she had him at home.ā
True, but I donāt feel sheās an opportunist like Scarlet in GWW. She seemed to have put āall-inā mental energy and affection into every affair she had.
[āWould it be okay if SO comes after you, yell at you, or haunt you in your dreams?āāØI donāt want anyone yelling at me, but I would stay in my lane. I do have a bit of a temper, but Iām not vindictive. I would never purposefully blow up someoneās life.]
I donāt think youāre an INFP who would blow up any LOās established life! I meant to ask what would happen if LOās SO find out about you. And what would you do if you were the betrayed SO?
I know you have a strong stand as a hypothetical, betrayed SO, who would not put up with your SOās limerent or his LO. You also had/have passionate affections as a Limerent, who wants to act or did act on your LE emotions, if given enough encouragement. So my questions is: what the SO Self in you would say to the Limerent Self in You, and vice versa ā the LO to the SOā
Lady Snow,
“A lot of people care about topics/contents more than creative writing skills.”
I think her writing is very intense and emotional and deeply felt.
“I see that our definitions of situation-ship differ in some ways. I consider it as the LEVEL of partnersā affection investment in time, energy, and intensity in the affair or dating situation. A commitment for a SO, in paper or just words, hasnāt really refrained PA/EA affairs for hundreds of years.”
It’s just that people can have a lot of affairs. Some people have more than one going on at once. So they mean less, at least to me, than a committed relationship. Doesn’t mean they mean nothing.
“Oh, no! Beatrice Was Danteās idealized LO and Muse. He only met her twice, and then married someone else. But he put his LE affection for her in his immortal work āInfernoā.”
Ah, ok. But beyond his creative work, it sounds a bit looney-tune. He meets her only twice in her life, does not get involved with her but devotes his lifelong affection to her ?
“I donāt think thatās all singletons would do with their crusher or LO.”
Yes, but it seems like the ones on here don’t.
“Well, youāre a limerent who pays extra attention to your feelings. There are non-limerent tribal people out there.”
Yes, but I wasn’t talking about non-limerents. I’d say that most limerents pay extra attention to their feelings.
[āWhy were you abstinent if you had a partner?ā]
“I never said that. There is a total abstinence or partial one with/from a partner.”
I think we’re saying the same thing ?
“What kind of help youāre referring here? Emotional/mental or practical ones?”
Both.
“COO, Stoic, and Buddhism agree with Maslowās Hierarchy of Needs only on its two bottom levels ā Physiological and Safety Needs. The upper three layers are wants/desires, excellent to have; but without which one can still survive/live okay.”
I agree with his hierarchy of needs, but I’d say most people want the higher levels and aren’t fulfilled without them. Love and Belonging, Self-Esteem, Self-Actualization are important.
“Iām sorry to hear about your frayed friendship.”
It’s life. Friendships are … idk. Like the tide. They float in and out.
“I have friends online or offline, not terribly close, from whom I have absolutely NO needs in any aspects, emotional, mental, or spiritual. Iām self-sufficient (aside from some practicality) without that Longing!”
Well, you’re not terribly close. With people who are closer in my life, yes, I do have some wants. Or needs. However you want to word it. š I think that’s normal.
” Iāll send you an invite for my own funeral if I have your address now! š”
I don’t need one because there won’t be a funeral! Ok … we’re getting close to the surgery date. How are you feeling about everything?
“IMP, one should not just live for oneself. If you have any dependent (in COO, that means elderly are included sometimes), youād understand why/how taking a good care of your cared/beloved could gratify your life in some ways.”
I see you refer back to your COO a lot. Have you questioned some of its mores? (I’m not necessarily referring to the idea of dependents.)
“Youāre more concerned, legitimately, about yourself and your affairs.”
I think that everyone (and I need to do this) should get their estate in order. Have a will, let the person/people who would be handling it know where the money is/how to pay off debts, etc. Don’t leave things a mess for someone to fix. But in terms of a funeral … I don’t care. I won’t be here. š
“In the West, the āsexualized/sexyā cultures stress the delight/ecstasy of sex, thus novel ones, āforbiddenā ones, not habitual, repeated, or toned down ones.”
That’s true.
“A breakups with or without reasons occur all the time, who could say it wouldnāt just land on oneās own head?”
Well, yes, but you’re the who writes about wanting safety.
“The āfearā of that possible āwalkoutā (even just 1%) made them to put their best efforts all the time into their relationship.”
This I do agree with. I don’t mean you lord it over someone and threaten them, but you tacitly make it clear you’ll walk if they don’t treat you well/things aren’t going well. But that doesn’t happen in a lot of LTRs. Both people seem to trudge along year after year … and no one is going anywhere, and they both know it.
“Iām sorry that you could not get something valuable from your LO/LE. I donāt regret much, since Iāve got some substantial stuff out of my last LE.”
You definitely got something out of your last LE. The only good that came out of mine … I started looking into limerence, found this site, looked into my patterns.
“For most people, thatās true. But for children or some wise elderlies, they live and enjoy life naturally like flowers.”
I meant that people need goals. Something to work toward. It doesn’t have to be a huge goal like climbing Mt. Everest (could be learning a new language, for example, or reading the classics) but something that motivates/interests them. Otherwise we’re just kind of floating.
“Not āhave toā for me. I will not make the effort, but naturally and fearlessly flow with fate in this matter. Without any efforts, Iāve bumped into Glimmers in all sort of unexpected placesā¦ I like that mystery/unpredictability of life: anything is possible tomorrow ā āTomorrow is another day!ā”
I answered this in the other post to you. I don’t really count glimmers that are with unavailable people and/or glimmers that lead nowhere. And most of my glimmers haven’t led anywhere fulfilling (by “fulfilling,” I mean a full-blown relationship).
“Why do we (not me anymore) always look for the wished outcomes? Why canāt we (exclude me) sincerely take the journal and enjoy it along the way, regardless of possible outcomes?”
I can only speak for myself, but when I went on those dates with the guy from the dating site … I feel like he wasted my time. We spent hours talking one-on-one. (Versus going on dates with entertainment, like a movie). We texted a lot. And I really feel, when all was said and done, he wanted a hookup. WHY NOT SAY THAT MUCH SOONER?! It takes so much more effort to talk to someone and try to get to know them.
“Iām not judging your way of dating, but it sets yourself up for bigger possibilities of anxiety and pains, because youāre want to and expect a lot certainties, where none can be given during dating, or in life at large.”
I wasn’t expecting certainty, but it would have been nice if he had been clearer about what he wanted.
“As I said last year, I did/do not want the word ādatingā appear in my platonic/romantic interactions or connections. Just go with flows to see if both sides want to go deeper.”
I do, because I want it clear there is a potential for a romantic interaction/relationship. I don’t want to just “hang out” and not be clear if it’s platonic or not. I want to avoid what’s happened on this site for so many people! š
“There are certain sentiments/emotions you can feel through sincere communications, why so āconcerned about naming themā”
Because often we make assumptions about what the other person is feeling/thinking, and we could be way off.
“I donāt think Nin ever used the word ādatingā in her interactions with Miller, or any of her lovers. And her lovers did not require her commitment, mingling with her in whatever was probably enough.”
Well, she couldn’t “date.” She was already married. And I’m assuming her lovers were artistic types. They usually have a different way of looking at relationships.
“In order to have ārouge momentsā, one needs to have those āgrey zoneā to compare with. ”
I would agree, but too may grey zone moments … make one feel grey! š
“None of my 16 Glimmers/LOs had that āabhorring lookingā, or your Butlerās eyes.”
Well, I don’t want a creeper. š But I like someone who’s direct.
But Iād fight back if the other side tries to take charge more than 50% of time. I was and probably still is a rebel type”
I’m pretty rebellious myself. I meant 10 to 15% of the time, and on small stuff. Stuff like social plans. “This is what time you’re picking me up,” etc.
“I donāt think so. He is sincere, humble, caring, focused, but much less artistic than she, whose tastes in everything are very creative and artistic. She has a style.”
Oh, ok. So she’s the more artistic one?
“True, but I donāt feel sheās an opportunist like Scarlet in GWW. She seemed to have put āall-inā mental energy and affection into every affair she had.”
No, but Scarlet had to survive after the war. Some of her opportunism was necessary to live.
“I donāt think youāre an INFP who would blow up any LOās established life!”
To be clear, I would never be one of those people who would call the SO up and tell them what was going on or release stuff at work to embarrass someone, etc. That’s what I meant. No matter what the LO did to me.
“I meant to ask what would happen if LOās SO find out about you.”
I don’t know.
“And what would you do if you were the betrayed SO?”
It’s happened to me. With the LO who became a boyfriend. I didn’t do much of anything when I found out. I suspected, but then I got definitive proof, and he knew that I knew. Talk about an elephant in the room neither of us acknowledged! But by that point, I was so checked out of the relationship. I think a big part of me didn’t care.
“So my questions is: what the SO Self in you would say to the Limerent Self in You, and vice versa ā the LO to the SOā”
Well, that’s two selves who are at war with each other. š
I don’t think the SO self in me would be all that compassionate or understanding. “Get it together! Make better choices!”
And the LO self … “Cut me some slack. For a few minutes, I was actually alive.”
See? Two selves. š
Lady Marcia,
āI think her writing is very intense and emotional and deeply felt. ā
Itās very captivating (probably more so for a limerent!)
āItās just that people can have a lot of affairs. Some people have more than one going on at once. So they mean less, at least to me, than a committed relationship. Doesnāt mean they mean nothing. ā
Very true. I canāt imagine besides SO, one can have that much emotional energy for 1, 2, or more LOs at the same time. To have many PPA ā Pure Physical Affair simultaneously is possible, but not EAs. I know I cannot, one LO or BP at a timeāļø
āAh, ok. But beyond his creative work, it sounds a bit looney-tune. He meets her only twice in her life, does not get involved with her but devotes his lifelong affection to her ?ā
Thatās how the legend goes ā a pure spiritual LE! He puts her images in āinfernoā somewhere. When I visited Danteās home in Florence and heard this deep male voice reading his poems in a Hologram film, I was taken to a higher realm ā it grabbed oneās soul/core. Iāll study Italian later, itās so prettyāļø
[āI donāt think thatās all singletons would do with their crusher or LO.āāØYes, but it seems like the ones on here donāt.
Yes, but I wasnāt talking about non-limerents. Iād say that most limerents pay extra attention to their feelings. ]
Limerent singletons are a different breed. We are neurally wired ārichly whinnyā š¤
āI agree with his hierarchy of needs, but Iād say most people want the higher levels and arenāt fulfilled without them. Love and Belonging, Self-Esteem, Self-Actualization are important. ā
Yes. We all WANT/DESIRE higher levels of needs, and would feel unfulfilled or even miserable without them. But there are people who can live decently with only 2 lower levels. Also Love and Belonging can mean different things to different people. E.g. love can mean TO LOVE, or TO BE LOVED, or both.
āØāItās life. Friendships are ā¦ idk. Like the tide. They float in and out.ā
If thatās indeed a reality, weāll have to accept it; consider it as one Uncontrollable in Stoic. Feeling upset or resentful about something we canāt change only makes us further unhappy.
āWell, youāre not terribly close. With people who are closer in my life, yes, I do have some wants. Or needs. However you want to word it. ā
Maybe because Iām more self-sufficient, so I could/did not (need to) make close friendship. As I said, by comparisons with a lot of you here, Iām a true lone-wolf, a quite content one! š
āI donāt need one because there wonāt be a funeral! Ok ā¦ weāre getting close to the surgery date. How are you feeling about everything?ā
Never say āneverā, just knock on woods!
I donāt know how to describe what Iām feeling, a little bit of everythingā¦ but mostly tired. I had to talk with and meet doctors and nurses almost everyday for pre-op and post-op, and other tests. I walked all over the city in the hot sun, thinking Iād have to lie down for a few days, bugger!
āI see you refer back to your COO a lot. Have you questioned some of its mores? (Iām not necessarily referring to the idea of dependents.)ā
I think so. Itās by comparisons (chatting with collective you here), that I realized many of my habitual thinking is from COO pass-downs . Without such discussions or debates like ours, theyād just been jammed inside of my head, unclear where originally they were from.
Needless to say some COO stuff is quite backwards, politically inhuman, while some other stuff is ancient but quite valuable (similar to some Greek philosophies), which itās hard to spot their manifestation in the West any longer.
āI think that everyone (and I need to do this) should get their estate in order. Have a will, let the person/people who would be handling it know where the money is/how to pay off debts, etc. Donāt leave things a mess for someone to fix. But in terms of a funeral ā¦ I donāt care. I wonāt be here. ā
All of the things you mentioned here is taken care of officially in my case. In terms of a funeralā¦? I believe my soul can sense who is there, so I put some personally āimportantā names on a relevant notebookā¦
āWell, yes, but youāre the who writes about wanting safety. ā
Oh, my safety is not the sense of a secure/safe relationship, but literally not being abused physically or emotionally/mentqlly. A breakup has nothing to do with my sense of safety, itās take for granted that it can happen anytime with or without reasons.
āThis I do agree with. I donāt mean you lord it over someone and threaten them, but you tacitly make it clear youāll walk if they donāt treat you well/things arenāt going well.ā
Certainly on both ways.
āBut that doesnāt happen in a lot of LTRs. Both people seem to trudge along year after year ā¦ and no one is going anywhere, and they both know it. ā
Not necessarily. The four couples (together from 10-25 years), who never had a marriage certificate but raised children from 0-4 together, respectively, knew in theory, that each side could walk away from their home any day, which had deep psychological impact in their behavior and interactions. Thatās what one of them explained to me. If a LO/Lim suddenly appeared, who knowsāļø š
āYou definitely got something out of your last LE. The only good that came out of mine ā¦ I started looking into limerence, found this site, looked into my patterns. ā
I had very little expectation in LEās realistic outcome, but I took the opportunity to do self-search and self-healing work. Iām a true opportunist.
So this site helped you look into your patters? You found them but havenāt got rid of the root, right? What other benefits?
I canāt tell you how much Iāve valued what Iāve got from this site. With no exception, I got rid of my lifetime Longingāļøā¦ Again like what I said eariler, āwhen one is not searching for anything in particular, things have happened.ā Why canāt you see there is Fate in all of theseāļø
āI meant that people need goals. Something to work toward. It doesnāt have to be a huge goal like climbing Mt. Everest (could be learning a new language, for example, or reading the classics) but something that motivates/interests them. Otherwise weāre just kind of floating. ā
š Absolutely! Some retirees began to learn a new language, write their memoir, read the classics waiting on their reading list, travel around the worldā¦ Iābe been postponing my hobbies, because I spent too much time here, as a form of learning and socializing (not just chitchats), quite satisfactory, too.
āI answered this in the other post to you. I donāt really count glimmers that are with unavailable people and/or glimmers that lead nowhere. And most of my glimmers havenāt led anywhere fulfilling (by āfulfilling,ā I mean a full-blown relationship). ā
Yes, I answered this in my earlier post. Again, perhaps the intensity of your want made you more anxiousā Why not just enjoy glimmers as they are, nothing more or lessā
āI can only speak for myself, but when I went on those dates with the guy from the dating site ā¦ I feel like he wasted my time. We spent hours talking one-on-one. (Versus going on dates with entertainment, like a movie). We texted a lot. And I really feel, when all was said and done, he wanted a hookup. WHY NOT SAY THAT MUCH SOONER?! It takes so much more effort to talk to someone and try to get to know them. ā
The man sounded selfish, he shouldāve been more straightforward much earlier. Maybe he truly enjoyed interacting with you first or thought he needed to do so mentally or emotionally before actually physically hooking up?
āI wasnāt expecting certainty, but it would have been nice if he had been clearer about what he wanted. ā
Isnāt clearing a form of certainty? Maybe he werenāt clear himself earlierā
āI do, because I want it clear there is a potential for a romantic interaction/relationship. I donāt want to just āhang outā and not be clear if itās platonic or not. I want to avoid whatās happened on this site for so many people! ā
Unless the guy was from a dating site, I did not have clear goal of getting into a romantic interaction/relationship, maybe until later after hanging out fora while. I did/do not want a naturally devolving friendship/romance to be handled like a business contract. How unromantic it would beāļøš§
On this site, itās dominated by liemrents with a SO. The dynamic is different.
āBecause often we make assumptions about what the other person is feeling/thinking, and we could be way off. ā
Very true. Then can we not make assumptions and just ask the other side bravely and franklyāWithout that Longing but carefree, itās easier to do, now I am certaināļø
āWell, she couldnāt ādate.ā She was already married. And Iām assuming her lovers were artistic types. They usually have a different way of looking at relationships.ā
One of her lover, Otto, was a well-known psychologist, and she ātreatedā his patients on the side line by talking to them and was liked by them. She was supposed to be very empathetic and easy to talk to, without judgments.
Artistās way of looking at relationship is quite different from average Jones, often filled with novelties, exulaation, morality/rule-breaking, with instability and high rate of breakups.
āI would agree, but too many grey zone moments ā¦ make one feel grey! ā
Very true. But if a grey-rocking lands on oneās head without much of oneās choice, what is s/he supposed to do? Commit a suicide? Or find something fulfilling within the grey zone with the Stoic mindsetā
āWell, I donāt want a creeper. But I like someone whoās direct. ā
So anyone who is not Butler type would be a creeper? What about getting into a hot bed on the first date and rolling sheets for the next two days?
āØāIām pretty rebellious myself. I meant 10 to 15% of the time, and on small stuff. Stuff like social plans. āThis is what time youāre picking me up,ā etc. ā
I was very easy going on small stuff, as long as they didnāt cause conflicts with my work or other responsibilities. But on big issues, I wouldnāt blindly follow a lead, e.g the suggestion to have a ācausal/alternative friendshipāby ET.
āOh, ok. So sheās the more artistic one?ā
Very much so, with a bit pricy taste (I donāt understand why she said her husband āIs an artistā¦ ). The way she looked at me soon after we met made me think sheās a bi-sexual. Sheās highly educated, feminine, empathetic, lady-like (like a younger Mrs. Dalloway) and people of all types and ages like to talk with her. So many people were let go from my old work, but she was promoted. Her surgery went well.
āNo, but Scarlet had to survive after the war. Some of her opportunism was necessary to live. ā
Totally understandable!
āTo be clear, I would never be one of those people who would call the SO up and tell them what was going on or release stuff at work to embarrass someone, etc. Thatās what I meant. No matter what the LO did to me. ā
Iām the same way. What about if LO betrayed you by reporting it to PR?
[āI meant to ask what would happen if LOās SO find out about you.āāØI donāt know. ]
I told you what I did to my xSOās two flings (I donāt think they were limerent-type) when they would NOT leave us alone, right? I yelled at his old flameās face, and filed a legal complaint to the girl from COOā¦ š
āItās happened to me. With the LO who became a boyfriend. I didnāt do much of anything when I found out. I suspected, but then I got definitive proof, and he knew that I knew. Talk about an elephant in the room neither of us acknowledged! But by that point, I was so checked out of the relationship. I think a big part of me didnāt care. ā
Wow! You were lucky that you were already checked out by the time you found out of his affair; otherwise, youād be much more hurtāļø
[āSo my questions is: what the SO Self in you would say to the Limerent Self in You, and vice versa ā the LO to the SOā
There was a typo here, I meant āāthe Limerent to the SOā
āØāWell, thatās two selves who are at war with each other. ā]
I bet so! If I knew what limerence was, Iād have tried to get out much sooner. Still, I did not cross PA boundaries or pressed LO to have EA with me; I already largely tamed the LE wild horse before coming to LwLā¦
āI donāt think the SO self in me would be all that compassionate or understanding. āGet it together! Make better choices!āā
Iād punch that Limerentās face šš» like I did to LO#6 š
āØāAnd the Limerent self ā¦ āCut me some slack. For a few minutes, I was actually alive.ā
I would NEVER beg! I might have broken my own oath if LO were 80% of Henry Miller in his emotional investmentā¦. (He might have given only 20%)š
āSee? Two selves. ā
I see. Do you think you can make a treaty or peace between your two Selvesā
Iāve began my liquid diet and black coffee/tea for more than 24 hoursāļø
Lady Snow,
“Itās very captivating (probably more so for a limerent!)”
Yes. š
“Very true. I canāt imagine besides SO, one can have that much emotional energy for 1, 2, or more LOs at the same time. ”
Well, they’re not all LOs. I don’t think it’s really possible to be limerent for more than one person at a time.
“To have many PPA ā Pure Physical Affair simultaneously is possible, but not EAs. I know I cannot, one LO or BP at a timeāļø”
I think a person could have more than one affair and care for the affair partners. To an extent. But not limerence. But I agree … I don’t know how people have the energy.
“Thatās how the legend goes ā a pure spiritual LE! He puts her images in āinfernoā somewhere.”
I hope he had some real-life love experiences.
“When I visited Danteās home in Florence ”
That sounds interesting. What was the house like?
“But there are people who can live decently with only 2 lower levels. Also Love and Belonging can mean different things to different people. E.g. love can mean TO LOVE, or TO BE LOVED, or both.”
I agree.
“If thatās indeed a reality, weāll have to accept it; consider it as one Uncontrollable in Stoic. Feeling upset or resentful about something we canāt change only makes us further unhappy.”
It doesn’t have to be that way. It’s just the way people in the West value/prioritize friendship. And no one seems to question it. But … you’re right in that there’s nothing you can do about it.
“I donāt know how to describe what Iām feeling, a little bit of everythingā¦ but mostly tired. I had to talk with and meet doctors and nurses almost everyday for pre-op and post-op, and other tests. ”
That sounds exhausting.
“Needless to say some COO stuff is quite backwards, politically inhuman, while some other stuff is ancient but quite valuable (similar to some Greek philosophies), which itās hard to spot their manifestation in the West any longer.”
Some of what you told me about COO sounds good. Taking care of one’s family, making guests feel welcome. (I mean the traditions, not the government.)
“I believe my soul can sense who is there, so I put some personally āimportantā names on a relevant notebookā¦”
That’s fine. I think everyone handles things differently.
“Oh, my safety is not the sense of a secure/safe relationship, but literally not being abused physically or emotionally/mentally.”
Oh, ok. I misinterpreted your idea of safety.
“Not necessarily. The four couples (together from 10-25 years), who never had a marriage certificate but raised children from 0-4 together, respectively, knew in theory, that each side could walk away from their home any day, which had deep psychological impact in their behavior and interactions. Thatās what one of them explained to me. ”
I should have been clearer. I meant married couples. There’s something about entwining your life financially/socially/physically/legally/religiously.
“I had very little expectation in LEās realistic outcome, but I took the opportunity to do self-search and self-healing work. Iām a true opportunist.”
It’s a good thing, actually.
“So this site helped you look into your patters? You found them but havenāt got rid of the root, right? What other benefits?”
I know what the root is. But there’s understanding something you’re doing intellectually but still being affected emotionally.
” Again like what I said eariler, āwhen one is not searching for anything in particular, things have happened.ā Why canāt you see there is Fate in all of theseāļø”
Fate may play some part, but the other part (and it’s a big part) is being pro-active.
“Iāve been postponing my hobbies, because I spent too much time here, as a form of learning and socializing (not just chitchats), quite satisfactory, too.”
Ha! Someone asks you what your hobbies are and you say, “I post on a limerence forum.” š
“Yes, I answered this in my earlier post. Again, perhaps the intensity of your want made you more anxiousā”
I’m an intense person. š
” Why not just enjoy glimmers as they are, nothing more or lessā”
Because I don’t want to waste energy on someone who’s not available. I don’t want to bother with it.
“Maybe he truly enjoyed interacting with you first or thought he needed to do so mentally or emotionally before actually physically hooking up?”
It’s the latter! He thought the sex would be better for him if we got to know each other a bit.
“Isnāt clearing a form of certainty? Maybe he werenāt clear himself earlierā”
You could tell someone you were looking for a serious relationship. It doesn’t mean you’re looking for one with that person. So there’s no certainty but there is some clarity.
I don’t specifically know exactly when he got clear with what he wanted.
“Unless the guy was from a dating site, I did not have clear goal of getting into a romantic interaction/relationship, maybe until later after hanging out for a while. I did/do not want a naturally devolving friendship/romance to be handled like a business contract. How unromantic it would beāļøš§”
I don’t think it’s unromantic at all. When you both know you’re there for romantic/sexual potential … and if you both feel some kind of attraction, there’s a little Sizzle-Lean hanging in the air. No reason to hold back because no one knows what is going on and fears “putting it out there” or blowing up the friendship.
“Very true. Then can we not make assumptions and just ask the other side bravely and frankly”
I agree.
“One of her lover, Otto, was a well-known psychologist, and she ātreatedā his patients on the side line by talking to them and was liked by them. She was supposed to be very empathetic and easy to talk to, without judgments.”
That sounds like a potential ethical issue in that she probably shouldn’t have been introduced to people who were his patients (that’s private info) and she wasn’t a trained psychologist herself.
“But if a grey-rocking lands on oneās head without much of oneās choice, what is s/he supposed to do? Commit a suicide? Or find something fulfilling within the grey zone with the Stoic mindsetā”
Change one’s life, as much as possible and as much as is reasonable. (Realizing that it is not possible to get away from all grey; grey is actually a big chunk of life. )
“So anyone who is not Butler type would be a creeper?”
No. You wrote you don’t like wolf eyes. I was agreeing that I don’t want men to look at me in a creepy way.
“What about getting into a hot bed on the first date and rolling sheets for the next two days?”
I mean, Butler type or not … you don’t know the person after a first date. Have a good time if you want but keep expectations low as you might not hear from him after the two days are over.
” But on big issues, I wouldnāt blindly follow a lead, e.g the suggestion to have a ācausal/alternative friendshipā by ET.”
I agree.
“Her surgery went well.”
She was the friend with breast cancer?
“What about if LO betrayed you by reporting it to HR?
Are you talking about the current one?
“I told you what I did to my xSOās two flings (I donāt think they were limerent-type) when they would NOT leave us alone, right?”
OMG, I would never do that. Harass the couple.
“I yelled at his old flameās face, and filed a legal complaint to the girl from COOā¦ š”
What kind of legal complaint?
“Wow! You were lucky that you were already checked out by the time you found out of his affair; otherwise, youād be much more hurtāļø”
Things started off as an affair between us. We later had a relationship, but deep down I didn’t want to be with him indefinitely. I wasn’t surprised when I found out.
“Iād punch that Limerentās face šš» like I did to LO#6 š ”
Just to be clear … if you found out your SO was limerent for someone … you’d punch them in the face? I would be very irritated with an SO who was limerent … as no one becomes limerent without moving toward the LO and doing things to be around them/contact them, etc. Even if there wasn’t an EA or PA.
“I would NEVER beg! I might have broken my own oath if LO were 80% of Henry Miller in his emotional investmentā¦. (He might have given only 20%)š”
I’m not sure what you’re referring to here. I meant that if I had an SO and he found out I was limerent for someone … that would be my lame excuse. I felt alive through the limerence.
“Do you think you can make a treaty or peace between your two Selvesā”
The two Marcias have been fighting for years!
“Iāve began my liquid diet and black coffee/tea for more than 24 hoursāļø”
Why? So the anesthesia doesn’t make you nauseous?
Ok … so I don’t miss you (because I don’t know what time zone you’re in) … I am wishing you the best of luck with your surgery! I will be thinking of you! Post as soon as you are able and up to it. Even if it’s just a short one to let us know you are ok.
L.E.
Could Return of the Pink Panther be the greatest comedy ever?
No Adam, the greatest comedy ever is The Princess Bride.
Of course, for laugh out loud funny humor, I like Airplane. That scene where a plane crashes during the in-flight movie is hilarious!
I never watched Princess Bride till after we got married. Momma introduced me to it. Vizzini is easily my favorite humorous character of the film.
You havenāt been around as much as Iād like you to be Miss Lovisa *scolds* I know you are a busy mother/caretaker/wife but your favorite person happens to miss you. Hope your runs are going well and you donāt feel bad for persecuting spiders in your path. š
Bill and Ted! UHF!!!
Yeah Bill and Ted is a great one. Watched that a lot as a kid. So-crates. š
Never watched UHF.
At the mention of Bill and Ted this old man is gonna attempt to link a meme I think youād get a kick out of ā¦.
https://imgur.com/a/3tv20M9
Yep! Lol
Do yourself a favor and see UHF. š (I have a crush on Philo. š )
Personally I like “Kentucky Fried Movie”
See we are brothers from another mother. Amazon Women on the Moon is a top 5 comedy for me. Especially the Don āNo Soulā Simmons bit. Especially his Joy To The World part. š
In the context of limerence, the funniest movie ever is Woody Allen’s “Play It Again, Sam.”
https://youtu.be/DyHkKUcrgq4?feature=shared
Hi Bewitched, thanks for being happy about my progress. Really nice having this support group over here.
Lady Marcia,
Notorious for always trying to speak the last work, I couldnāt possibly not to respond your post, could Iā
āI have no dog in this fight. You donāt have to believe me, but itās pretty established knowledge (you can Google it) that an addict is an addict for life. I donāt mean a social drinker or even a heavy social drinker. But someone who is, for example, a full-blown alcoholic. ā
I just checked online, the answer is āYESā ā
https://nida.nih.gov/publications/drugs-brains-behavior-science-addiction/treatment-recovery
[Yes, addiction is a treatable disorder. Research on the science of addiction and the treatment of substance use disorders has led to the development of research-based methods that help people to stop using drugs and resume productive lives, also known as being in recovery.
Can addiction be cured?
Like treatment for other chronic diseases such as heart disease or asthma, addiction treatment is not a cure, but a way of managing the condition. Treatment enables people to counteract addiction’s disruptive effects on their brain and behavior and regain control of their lives.]
āWell, Iām not particularly logical. I can operate with common sense, but then thereās another side of me that gets tired of doing that. ā
This will lead to your own suffering. But youāre right, one CANNOT be always logical, which is tiring and very unromantic š
āLike Iām repressing myself and drowning in āmaking the right choiceā and ābeing pleasant.ā
Thatās what the cultural script or your own cultural conditioning tells you so. Weāre talking about taking care of our OWN wellbeing, not ābeing pleasantā or pleasing others.
āAs it should be. Sometimes you say no just because youāre being told to say yes. ā
I disagree you here, I donāt usually say āNOā just because Iām told to say āYes.ā ā Iāve grown out of terrible two. When it comes to issues that are directly related to our own mental or physical wellbeing, we need to discern situations with our reason/logic, not emotions; otherwise, itās just plainly unwise or stupid.
You also used the word, āSometimesā which indicates you donāt always say ānoā for the sake of rebelling āyesā. One SHOULD NOT rebel for the sake of rebelling. If someone elseās solutions or doctorās judgment, based on scientific data, are correct, we listen to them ā even just knowledgeable guesses; we donāt have all knowledge.
[āAre you saying thereās so little of FREEDOM in life? āāØYes. The only true freedom comes with money. Having enough so you donāt have to work. Having a job is NOT freedom. Being told what to do, when to do it, etc. ]
Totally DISAGREE with you here. Freedom resides in mind and spirit associated with completely carefree, tell me if Money can buy such a FREEDOM āļø I think you and many over value power of money, which can certainly bring oneās life a lot of convinces, but the total FREEDOM!
āHard for me to imagine as I never thought of my LOs as friends. (I know, I know. You did. :)) So without the romantic element, there would be no point in maintaining contact.ā
I did whatāIām not sure what/who you refer to. I still ask such a question. If you say there is no point, then I guess you cut the past completely with the present. What if you xLO is a good one, qualified to be a good friend, based on your standards?
[āIāve thought of that. Can I limerent be trusted?
I hope I would back away from a potential LO. ]
So you can only hope, not 70-90% sure? Then how could you have a high expectations of a hypothetical SO, who might be also a limerent?
āI meant the thrill of the rollercoaster (or substitute another āfunā activity) can generate physical attraction. ā
I know it works for many people, but NOT me physically or mentally, particularly in a longerāterm fun. It seems that you stress a lot of physical attraction, while I tend to be drawn to mental rollercoaster. I wonder did I indeed over-read like my father claimed? š¤
āWell, Iām not an expert, so I need some help. ā
So dating experts would enhance oneās dating experiences and guarantee oneās desired BP/SO?
āA walking painting?ā
A person with a good appearance.
āØāYou can enjoy the interaction, but itās so, so, so much better if thereās actually a possibility of something happening. Because that ratchets things up to a whole different level. ā
Of course it would ratchet much more if there is a full cake š§ for you to gulp down. But there is just one š° there, are you going to enjoy it, or walk away simply because you canāt have the whole š§ ā
āØāI guess Iām not clear what it means to you.ā
Having a Glimmer means that Iām attracted by a new person, but heās not available to have a further connection. But heās still more pleasant than those non-glimmering ones to interact with, rightāSo Iāll keenly watch my emotions, not let it slip into more infatuation or kill the Glimmer once for all, while still dealing with the person, like I did with Romeo last year. I taught him for another 11 months before he left and enjoyed our interaction professionally.
Now, I got a new glimmering student, whom I have to deal with. But this one is much smaller than Romeoās Glimmer, which was dimmed later.
āØ āFor the guy at the meetup, I felt attracted to him and I liked him. That to me is the start of things. What Iād call a āglimmer.ā He was a little flirty, teasing me a little, poking his finger in my arm. But Iām not limerent for him or pining for him or plotting my next move. It wasnāt like that. ā
I think youāre doing fine in enjoying your glimmer with this meetup guy; youāre in control of this glimmering situation. I would keenly watch my emotions (like with Romeo), and not let your attraction slip into LO-Lite kind.
āI donāt have any kind of goal with this guy. Thereās not enough in our interactions for me to go off the deep end. ā
Well, no one is pushing you to interact with him or try to āget off the deep end.ā And if you do, just take a pleasant ride in the interacting with him. Do we always need a goal to interact with someone very attractive?
āAnd given the existence of LO-lite and that being so recent, itās unlikely Iād go off the deep end so soon. This other guyās not pushing my buttons. Itās a totally different kind of interaction. ā
This guy is also unavoidable, are you even thinking about going off the deep end soon or later? What is your logical mind saying to your Lim š¦ braināš§
Please allow me to be frankly ask you here: havenāt you suffered enough from LO and LO-lite, that now you are even considering āthe deep endā with another unavailable guy? Is this what we have learned from LwLā
[āAppreciate for his existence or his beauty or his āprofessionalā quality without trying to get him into your grips.āāØNow, why would I want to do that? ]
To live āhere and nowā, enjoy what is given to you by FATE. NO one gets Glimmer that often! If you donāt want to do that, then run away from the glimmer!
āIām good for a very long time, and then I go off the deep end every now and then. Get a cake and eat most if not all of it. ā
Iām a control freak; I never went off on sweet stuff, cake or ice cream or dark chocolate. I look at them as beautiful legitimate drugs, maximumly taking 1.5 slices or 3 scopes or 1 whole bar is okay; NO more, NO moreāļø
āNo, but I do wonder if youāre repressing some of your basic wants (See? I used āwants.ā) (Iām not referring to sex but love and companionship.)ā
Love and companionship is not a BASIC want, to me; theyāre luxurious desirables š. I did not want to deal with incompatible love or companionship, (tried so-so ones before ā insufferable). Iād rather to stay by myself for more quality time.
āI hope he had some real-life love experiences.ā
No one seems to have cared about Danteās love life but his political life and literary works.
[āWhen I visited Danteās home in Florence āāØThat sounds interesting. What was the house like?ā]
For his time, Itās simple 3-flat brick house with a yard; his own room is as simple as a priest; I took some photos. The whole house is a museum now tucked in a narrow, back alley. In a rainy day, I lost myself (always got lost) among confusing alleys and suddenly landed in front of his house).
Then that Hologram film captivated me and almost took me over emotionally ā No wonder heās Limerentsā recorded 1st ancestor, based on Tunnov. I posted my visit there in a coffeehouse. I want to learn Italian now, it sounds so musical š.
āØ āIt doesnāt have to be that way. Itās just the way people in the West value/prioritize friendship. And no one seems to question it. But ā¦ youāre right in that thereās nothing you can do about it.ā
Before I came to LwL, I never realized how ālightā the West has valued friendship compared to COO tradition (not as much in the modern time, either, due to that bloody totalitarian regime)
āSome of what you told me about COO sounds good. Taking care of oneās family, making guests feel welcome. (I mean the traditions, not the government.)ā
Also its āStoicā mindset in general is valuable for oneās logical mentality and emotional stability. Resilient people there expect, want, or demand the way less than Westerners and put their best efforts, even just with a faint hope, to improve their life a little bit in some ways. Once they do, they become more grateful than rampant, entitled attitudes here.
āI should have been clearer. I meant married couples. Thereās something about entwining your life financially/socially/physically/legally/religiously.ā
Those unofficially āmarriedā couples were also entwined in finance, social life, body, mind, and spirituality, just NEVER signed that Marriage license. They believed a legal āsafe marital beltā would not necessarily enhance the marriage, but make each party ālazierā in putting in and keeping up efforts.
āI know what the root is. But thereās understanding something youāre doing intellectually but still being affected emotionally. ā
Yes, itās easier in intellectual level, but extremely hard in visceral layer. To remove that root, one may need to do much, much more!
ā Fate may play some part, but the other part (and itās a big part) is being pro-active. ā
I donāt quite agree with you here in term of relationship matters, but Iām old fashioned, donāt listen to me. Pro-active in solo enterprises or endeavors has highly sounding reasons. But with another person involved, a certain amount of fate should be respected. Pro-active may or may NOT help; to me, itās simply NOT. My mind is probably from the Victorian era! š
āHa! Someone asks you what your hobbies are and you say, āI post on a limerence forum.ā
An excellent answer, especially in confusing a normal person āWhat on earth is ālimerenceāāšµāš« You should see how long my book and film lists areāļø
āIām an intense person. ā
From my narrow mind and near-sight, your intensity sometimes seemed not to be spent/placed on ārightā matters, which had caused a lot of your own anxieties and pains.
āBecause I donāt want to waste energy on someone whoās not available. I donāt want to bother with it.ā
Then, just walk away from them. I was taking about the situation, like in a workplace, in which one canāt walk away from a Glimmer. After a couple of weeks of my surgery, Iāll have to deal with one in my tutoring, regardless what I wanted to do with it.
āItās the latter! He thought the sex would be better for him if we got to know each other a bit. ā
Then itās quite understandable! Men or women, who doesnāt want to in this more savoring style?
āYou could tell someone you were looking for a serious relationship. It doesnāt mean youāre looking for one with that person. So thereās no certainty but there is some clarity. I donāt specifically know exactly when he got clear with what he wanted. ā
This clarity is fluid, can change from case to case. The person might havenāt totally decided it, and thinks he may change his mind depending on whom he meet. An open-minded person might not have that clarity but just intend to play it by ear.
āI donāt think itās unromantic at all. When you both know youāre there for romantic/sexual potential ā¦ and if you both feel some kind of attraction, thereās a little Sizzle-Lean hanging in the air. ā
Feeling attraction is romantic/seductive, knowing it with verbal confirmation/intention is NOT. Itās just me. Thatās why 95% dates I went was so predictable and boringā¦
āNo reason to hold back because no one knows what is going on and fears āputting it out thereā or blowing up the friendship. ā
If feeling attracted (not limerence) can blow up a friendship, then itās not a REAL friendship. Between friends, one should and could be very honest in big issues (not everything in oneās powDer room), such as deep thoughts and emotions.
āThat sounds like a potential ethical issue in that she probably shouldnāt have been introduced to people who were his patients (thatās private info) and she wasnāt a trained psychologist herself.ā
Thatās in 1920s, I guess many professional rules are not so strict like today.
āChange oneās life, as much as possible and as much as is reasonable. (Realizing that it is not possible to get away from all grey; grey is actually a big chunk of life. )ā
Here you rockāļø ā āgrey is actually a big chunk a of lifeā. Changing oneās life largely depends on changing oneās attitude towards habitual & boring stuff, like in āGroundhog Dayā Changing oneās life means to live here and now ā enjoy interactivity with Glimmering guy without wanting more; or to want and appreciate what one already hasāļø
āNo. You wrote you donāt like wolf eyes. I was agreeing that I donāt want men to look at me in a creepy way.ā
No one likes creepy eyes! But to some women, Ashleyās eyes are more attractive than Butler, based on Serial Limerent. The eyes of all my xLOs are between Ashley and Butler, somewhat like Keats.
āI mean, Butler type or not ā¦ you donāt know the person after a first date. Have a good time if you want but keep expectations low as you might not hear from him after the two days are over. ā
Youāre absolutely right here ā just enjoy the ride, then and there, with NO expectations. That should be the way to enjoy unavailable Glimmer as well ā enjoy a walking painting in three dimensionsāļø
āShe was the friend with breast cancer?ā
Yes. She just got out of hospital today and sent me a good wish for tomorrow.
[āWhat about if LO betrayed you by reporting it to HR?āØAre you talking about the current one? ]
About in general, and also the current one. What would you do if he does that for some reasons?
āOMG, I would never do that. Harass the couple. ā
The flings happened after engagement before marriage; sosomehow they believed they could continue going out with him, although being repeatedly told heās married by then.
āWhat kind of legal complaint?ā
āPhone harassmentā (the waitress kept calling our landline), so I spoke and yelled at her on phone. But she would not stop. After receiving the legal summons, she and bf phoned to begā¦ We never showed up in the court, just wanted to teach her a lesson š !
āThings started off as an affair between us. We later had a relationship, but deep down I didnāt want to be with him indefinitely. I wasnāt surprised when I found out. ā
What do you mean āstarted off as an affair?ā He was not availableāSo you got the LO and did not really want to keep him?
āJust to be clear ā¦ if you found out your SO was limerent for someone ā¦ youād punch them in the face? ā
I didnāt make myself clear here: If I found a female in limerence with my SO, Iād verbally punch her face š„ , not SOās (You said every woman is on her own in the jungle of limerence š a 9-tailed š¦ would scratch or punch me backā¦š«¦ ). In this scenario, My SO would be a LO, probably with some flakiness and āencouraging guiltā.
āI would be very irritated with an SO who was limerent ā¦ as no one becomes limerent without moving toward the LO and doing things to be around them/contact them, etc. Even if there wasnāt an EA or PA.ā
Limerent is a type, not necessarily active in a given moment. Now, would you like to have a SO, in limerent tribe or non-limerent tribe? If the former, there is always a larger possibly heād become limerent for LO during his established relationship.
Now, what do you imagine LO-liteās SO would feel? If she finds out about you, how would she reactā
āØ āI meant that if I had an SO and he found out I was limerent for someone ā¦ that would be my lame excuse. I felt alive through the limerence. ā
I see. Then, it sounds like youād blame your SO for not making you āaliveāā¦.
So your aliveness only comes through a limerenceā
āØāThe two Marcias have been fighting for years! ā
Well, to remove that root you found out through LwL would perhaps make a final peace between two Marciasā
āIāve began my liquid diet and black coffee/tea for more than 24 hoursāāØWhy? So the anesthesia doesnāt make you nauseous?ā
Yes. Itās not so bad on Gatorade diet all day! Due to another frantic day full of incidents (delayed insurance approval, last minute MRI, WiFiās sudden deathā¦), I can barely FEEL anything now, or clear that Iām matching to a big surgery soon ā arrival at the hospital at 5:30amāļø
āØāOk ā¦ so I donāt miss you (because I donāt know what time zone youāre in) ā¦ I am wishing you the best of luck with your surgery! I will be thinking of you! ā
Thank you so much for your best wishes and the enliven chats for 2 month in a roll non-stopāļøIāve grown š± and šŗ at daily basisā¼ļø š¤
āPost as soon as you are able and up to it. Even if itās just a short one to let us know you are okā
Iāll definitely do so ā a PROMISE, Marcia Sis! š«
Iām a big sensible, considerate Limerent š ā the One and Only āļøš¦āš„ in the whole galaxy!š
Ode to a Nightingale
John Keats
1795 ā1821
1.
My heart aches, and a drowsy numbness pains
My sense, as though of hemlock I had drunk,
Or emptied some dull opiate to the drains
One minute past, and Lethe-wards had sunk:
āTis not through envy of thy happy lot,
But being too happy in thine happiness,ā
That thou, light-winged Dryad of the trees,
In some melodious plot
Of beechen green, and shadows numberless,
Singest of summer in full-throated ease.
2.
O, for a draught of vintage! that hath been
Coolād a long age in the deep-delved earth,
Tasting of Flora and the country green,
Dance, and Provencal song, and sunburnt mirth!
O for a beaker full of the warm South,
Full of the true, the blushful Hippocrene,
With beaded bubbles winking at the brim,
And purple-stained mouth;
That I might drink, and leave the world unseen,
And with thee fade away into the forest dim:
3.
Fade far away, dissolve, and quite forget
What thou among the leaves hast never known,
The weariness, the fever, and the fret
Here, where men sit and hear each other groan;
Where palsy shakes a few, sad, last gray hairs,
Where youth grows pale, and spectre-thin, and dies;
Where but to think is to be full of sorrow
And leaden-eyed despairs,
Where Beauty cannot keep her lustrous eyes,
Or new Love pine at them beyond to-morrow.
4.
Away! away! for I will fly to thee,
Not charioted by Bacchus and his pards,
But on the viewless wings of Poesy,
Though the dull brain perplexes and retards:
Already with thee! tender is the night,
And haply the Queen-Moon is on her throne,
Clusterād around by all her starry Fays;
But here there is no light,
Save what from heaven is with the breezes blown
Through verdurous glooms and winding mossy ways.
5.
I cannot see what flowers are at my feet,
Nor what soft incense hangs upon the boughs,
But, in embalmed darkness, guess each sweet
Wherewith the seasonable month endows
The grass, the thicket, and the fruit-tree wild;
White hawthorn, and the pastoral eglantine;
Fast fading violets coverād up in leaves;
And mid-Mayās eldest child,
The coming musk-rose, full of dewy wine,
The murmurous haunt of flies on summer eves.
6.
Darkling I listen; and, for many a time
I have been half in love with easeful Death,
Callād him soft names in many a mused rhyme,
To take into the air my quiet breath;
Now more than ever seems it rich to die,
To cease upon the midnight with no pain,
While thou art pouring forth thy soul abroad
In such an ecstasy!
Still wouldst thou sing, and I have ears in vainā
To thy high requiem become a sod.
7.
Thou wast not born for death, immortal Bird!
No hungry generations tread thee down;
The voice I hear this passing night was heard
In ancient days by emperor and clown:
Perhaps the self-same song that found a path
Through the sad heart of Ruth, when, sick for home,
She stood in tears amid the alien corn;
The same that oft-times hath
Charmād magic casements, opening on the foam
Of perilous seas, in faery lands forlorn.
8.
Forlorn! the very word is like a bell
To toll me back from thee to my sole self!
Adieu! the fancy cannot cheat so well
As she is famād to do, deceiving elf.
Adieu! adieu! thy plaintive anthem fades
Past the near meadows, over the still stream,
Up the hill-side; and now ātis buried deep
In the next valley-glades:
Was it a vision, or a waking dream?
Fled is that music:āDo I wake or sleep?