Helen Fisher, one of the most influential writers and researchers in the field of love, died at the end of August.
It’s taken me a while to hear the news. There are some good obituaries that focus on her achievements, with an emphasis on her MRI scanning work on the different brain regions engaged during different manifestations of love, and her consulting work with Match.com.
Fisher was also a pillar of the TED talk community, with her 2008 talk on The Brain in love being a smash hit.
I’ve written about Helen Fisher several times on the blog – she has influenced my understanding of love and limerence in many ways.
I think her best book is “The Anatomy of Love”, which really showcases her expertise as an anthropologist, and is chock-full of fascinating case studies and anecdotes about how different cultures developed habits and rituals around love. It goes way beyond that too, linking human mating behaviour into evolution and psychology, and exploring the origins of monogamy and infidelity. It’s a fantastic piece of work.
After learning about her death, I went back to the book to browse. Even in this cursory review, tinged with nostalgia and sadness at her passing, gems of insight sparkled forth.
On Mating rituals:
But in only 40% of eighty-eight cultures recently studied do men and women kiss erotically— touching their lips together long enough to exchange saliva. And most of these cultures are complex agrarian and industrial societies. In fact, until Western contact, kissing was reportedly unknown among the Somali, the Lepcha of Sikkim, and the Siriono of South America; whereas the Tsonga of South Africa and other traditional peoples found kissing disgusting. Erotic kissing is not a universal human trait; hence many think it did not evolve as a mechanism for seduction or pair bonding.
On adultery:
When anthropologist Marjorie Shostak met [Kalahari !Kung tribeswoman] Nisa in 1970, Nisa was living in a hunting-gathering band with her fifth husband. Nisa had engaged a lot of extra lovers though. And when Shostak asked Nisa why she had taken on so many paramours, Nisa replied, “There are many kinds of work a woman has to do, and she should have lovers wherever she goes. If she goes somewhere to visit and is alone, then someone there will give her beads, someone else will give her meat, and someone else will give her other food. When she returns to her village, she will have been well taken care of.” Nisa summed up in a few sentences a fine adaptive explanation for female interest in sexual variety—supplementary subsistence, ultimately enabling her young to disproportionately survive.
On infatuation versus long-term love:
Nisa, the !Kung woman of the Kalahari Desert whom I mentioned earlier, also explained this arc vividly, saying, “When two people are first together, their hearts are on fire and their passion is very great. After a while, the fire cools and that’s how it stays. They continue to love each other, but it’s in a different way—warm and dependable.”
On companionate love:
Few poets write about attachment, perhaps because this sense of cosmic union rarely propels one from the warmth of bed to write ecstatic verse in the dead of night.
On cultural influences on mating:
We are not puppets on a string of DNA. We have evolved a huge cerebral cortex with which we weigh our options, make decisions, and direct our behavior. Yet, year upon decade upon century upon millennium almost all of us still play these ancient scripts—strutting, preening, flirting, courting, dazzling, then capturing one another. Then nesting. Then breeding. Then some philander; some depart. Then, drunk on hope, most court anew, fall in love, and start again. Eternal optimist, the human animal seems restless during the reproductive years, then settles in as he or she matures.
I could go on all day.
Rest in Peace, Dr Fisher.
Thanks for everything.
Sammy says
R. I. P. Helen Fisher.
Just as Helen Fisher’s work has influenced younger generations, Dr Bellamy’s work will eventually influence people too.
I watched an interesting Heidi Priebe video recently. The video is called “Limerence: What Is It And How Do We Let It Go?” Out of interest, between 10:15-10:45 in the video, Heidi references Dr. L and his book “Living with Limerence”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9l5ALCPEBkc
Limerent Emeritus says
Priebe was a regular contributor on Thought Catalog. She wrote a lot of blogs on MBTI among other topics.
TC reorganized itself a few years back so her work might be hard to find but I recommend it.
I really like her stuff.
Adam says
“Then, drunk on hope, most court anew, fall in love, and start again.”
That sounds a lot like what limerence is like. Especially the “drunk on hope,” Even in my situation where, as the song says “torn between the chance at everything, but at a price I can’t pay”, there was still that “drunk on hope”. Maybe it is our need as humans, as Mrs Fisher said, to flirt, capture, nest and breed. Or maybe I am just afraid to be alone. I know that my greatest fear is my wife to die first. Hopefully my bad habits in life will assure me I don’t have to worry about that.
I also learned that I did not realize that kissing wasn’t a universal human thing. Very interesting.
Trifles says
RIP Dr Fischer.
I also found the kissing bit fascinating! Um, if kissing did not evolve as a means of seduction or pair bonding, why did it show up? Was it like the handshake (where both parties present their empty hands to show they are not armed) to present: “Here are my germs, see they are not deadly. And I trust you enough to take your germs”?
Adam says
i guess the same could be said of kissing. At least the passionate romantic kiss as saliva is exchanged. So a kiss is a sign of venerability. “I trust you enough to be vulnerable to your possible danger to myself” As many STDs and other diseases can be passed through saliva. And honestly of the little dating I did before marriage never got to that because I didn’t know those women enough to trust them like I did with my wife when we finally got married.
Snowpheonix says
Trifles, Adam,
Kissing has not been a a big deal in my COO for hundreds of years (yes to some since Hollywood has “invaded”), but touching and talking are, serving as an informal, daily physical, mental/emotional “therapy” ideally since one’s infancy.
When describing two young people in love, we say “s/he just wants to talk to him/her, it’s so cute!” So when E.T. MFF expressed in person several times, “I like/enjoy taking to you… “ and “I’ll always admire you” (not meaning “love” in COO — admiring is not physically intimate)… I could not help smile deeply. I warned him once that it meant something different in my COO, but he still used the sentences later — the delight to me (I was not going to stop him whatever he superficially meant! ) ☺️
I felt very uncomfortable to kiss my SO during the wedding ceremony in front of our guests. When xLO6 suddenly grabbed me and gave me a lingering kiss in the street, I almost passed out 😵🥴.
Snowpheonix says
You can guess, for sanitary reasons, COO people do not like “touch” either the “entrance” or “exit” of any biological body….
Adam says
It would a be a living hell for me to be in a culture where touch is looked down on. Physical touch is my love language. I had my head in my wife’s lap this morning after my alarm went off this morning. I gave her a “I can be late to work this morning” kiss before I left. Though I don’t like tickling which my wife will do to me when she’s feeling mischievous. I like blowing on my wife’s ear cause it puts her in …. well you know hehe
However touch for me is restricted to romantic encounters. Not much of a hugger or touchy person. In that aspect I’d fit in your COO.
No worries Snow, if LO gave me a lingering kiss out of nowhere I’d have a legit heart attack with my Afib condition.
Limerent Emeritus says
Adam,
Yeah, there’s something magical about a good kiss. My HS girlfriend and LO #2 knew how to kiss. No other woman I’ve ever kissed came close to those two. Considering my HS girlfriend was 18 when we were dating, I wonder where she learned that. Kissing is a lost art.
When I was a kid, my mother would nibble my earlobe. It made me tingle. I swore I’d marry the first woman who nibbled my ear. That woman was LO #2 and you all know how that turned out.
Snowpheonix says
Adam,
In my previous message, I quoted “touch”, which means mouth touching — kissing. COO folks like hand touch, but not much kissing, one rarely sees it on screen, maybe done in privacy.
Also most educated (going college rate is still lower compared to the West) people are able to write a line or two of verse/poem in ancient forms, so giving a poem is tasteful verbal way to express their deep love, otherwise hard to orally express without comfortably saying “I love you”. Of course, a lot of small or big gestures (tiny gifts) and deeds (action of favor) out of one’s affection would accompany a line of poem.
That’s my observation. I did/do not know what’s exactly going on behind others’ doors. Romance (limerence) and physical demonstration of affection/love are still a taboo topic. There is a set of coded words to describe them.
Trifles says
L.E., Ha, after my first kissing session with my HS boyfriend he gushed to me how I was the best kisser ever. I didn’t tell him that was my first kiss. Ever. 😂 He probably didn’t have a lot of experience either. But now that I think about it, I’d like to think he still holds that opinion.
That (HS gf’s being the best kissers) might have something to do with the novelty of it all and that time in life when you had all the time in the world to just kiss…
Snowphoenix says
Despite I grew up in a “purer” COO, despite my parents rarely touched or hugged me during my childhood (Fanny did some), as a neurodivergent or HSP, if touched on my skin anywhere, I’d be on fire, which could return some to the touch-giver.
After 7 years, I’ve never touched even ET’s fingers, perhaps Feared I’d lose controls.
Snowphoenix says
Typo: “Granny did some”
Serial Limerent says
@LE Yeah, I hadn’t kissed anybody before my first college boyfriend, but I got creative really fast. It’s those hours of doing nothing else. Some of the things I did are described on websites as ways to make kissing especially hot, lol! And we didn’t have the Internet back then to give me ideas. Just racing hormones and focusing on the kissing because your religion says no sex.
Though I’ve gotta wonder why your mom nibbled your earlobe??!!
Lim-a-rant says
Snow doesn’t this make, er, ‘reproduction’ a bit of a challenge in COO?!
Snowpheonix says
Macho men get to the point fast, it’s considered primarily their tasks. Women often feel being used and can’t even express their true needs or wants… otherwise, you’re considered slutty or immoral. But it’s been changing since it opened its door to the West.
A lot of “ordinary” (non/little Western-book readers) folks think and treat romanticism/romance is icky nonsense; some simply don’t understand why there is so much wordy, touchy, heady “nonsenses” in Hollywood stuff and consider it cheesy. People do have romantic feelings, of course, they hold them deeply within (considered highly valued)and walk around like “robots”. One needs to sense from their eyes or coy or teasing/playful words/codes. Nothing is ever spoken in straightforward fashions, which would be very tiring/exhausting to a Westerner. (Japan is even worse.)
When the screens tried to copy Hollywood clumsily, it was/is worse… better to stick to their subtle, coy, philosophical approach in 💘
Lim-a-rant says
Thanks for explaining Snow, even though it’s not the prettiest picture for women who live there.
Maybe this way of communication is where your special ‘eye-reading’ talents (by Western standards) come from?
Snowpheonix says
LaR,
Probably, I was an instinctual/intuitive observer far more than a logical/logistic doer; however, I was exposed to the Western classical literature at age of 10 and was thought “foreign” in appearance, before I ever stepped outside COO’s soil. Books and personality somehow shape one’s look.
After briefly dating non-glimmered xLO#3 (highly educated but still Macho — my distance cousin), my “raciest” glimmer never gleamed at any other men from the far East or South…. Glimmer is not just instinctual, but cultural as well…. Mine needed to spot “a part of me” in LO’s eyes in that first 5 seconds…
Then I/“me” kept evolving… ☺️
Lim-a-rant says
I find these ‘eye glimmers’ of yours fascinating. I am trying to stop praising my LO to the hills these days, but in truth, I could probably fill books with stuff I’ve thought about eye contact between us. She can read me like a book through my eyes sometimes (and I can her).
But – part of the ‘wider noticing’ process I’m in is just to see that actually she relies hugely on eye contact in all communications and is therefore just incredibly good at it, with everyone. I think, anyway! 👀🤩
Snowpheonix says
@LaR,
People who are good with eyes probably have acute sensory system, like sensing music and painting. They can feel tiny bit differences but won’t be able to tell in words.
My psychotherapist gave me a test and found out that my sensory system is out of normal ranges (highly/acutely sensitive) in 3 out 4 arenas. Thus I easily get overwhelmed and then tired in crowded public, and thus falling in sleep while driving — being overly stimulated.
Lim-a-rant says
Snow,
That you said about the acute sensory system all makes total sense to the context I described.
To bring this back on topic (deviation is my fault) – I also just watched the late Helen Fisher’s video that DrL posted. “Someone is camping in your head” was a particularly memorable quote from Helen, for me, to ďescribe limerence.
Snowpheonix says
@LaR
Yes, “Someone is camping in your head 24/7 for free…” is absolutely accurate, only differing in degree, making limerent either feel warm/pleasant, or anxious/annoyed, or angry/resented, or drunk/sad… all depending on each limerent’s script and its expectations in different stages of limerence.
Snowpheonix says
I watched her second, one year earlier clip, slightly different from the one in DrL’s blog:
https://youtu.be/x-ewvCNguug?si=IDtDiiNY5N743BLF — Why we love, why we cheat.
Another useful video clip: https://youtu.be/7mGCI0UalCk?si=LHTPxklHGtBns2DH — 5 questions to ask yourself every evening.
I asked myself all sorts of “whys” whenever E.T. Popped into my head…. But then vivid dreams haunted me almost every night… telling more about my deep concerns/cares, likes/dislikes… Merry-go-Round and Round…
The only way to uplift my easily depressed body/mood is to read others’ poems and scribble a line or two of my own… then, I’m all 🍑!
Maria says
@Snowphoenix,
“The only way to uplift my easily depressed body/mood is to read others’ poems and scribble a line or two of my own… then, I’m all 🍑!”
Have you ever thought of publishing a blog for the poems? That way they would be in one place. I scroll past them all the time but now I can’t find any.
Snowpheonix says
Hi Maria,
Considering the specific topics of DrL’s blogs, I usually put all others’ and my poems in various Coffee House, you can scroll them there.
I haven’t written many that are originated by myself; they’re usually inspired by others’ words and images, so I don’t feel creative enough to have a blog for those “parodies”. I haven’t even kept them in one place on my own device, except my original ones.
I receive 3 new random poems first thing in the morning, and read more springing from there, if not rush to work. If inspired by their words and ideas, my low mood (always after a night’s sleep or nightmares) would be perked up. I’d immediately jolt down my thoughts/sentiments, or contemplate them in Metro, or at bedtime. Occasionally when about to fall in sleep, I had to rush to turn on light and get my ipad, because certain words just rushed into my head, out of a Gate of Unconscious! I feared I’d forget them or lose my Phantom of that moment. So, another 2 or 3 hours of sleep were “lost” due to the excitement of jolting down uninvited words/lines.
Don’t really care about publishing, scribbling and editing them are most energizing; if I could jolt down two original lines, the rest of my day would become “giddy”, no LE pains could bother me. I wonder if E.T. were still here around me, whether I could be more or less “creative”….
Thank you for your encouragement. I was often discontent that the Phantom of Originality does not visit me often enough.
Maria says
Anything that numbs the LE pain is worth pursuing! I know the feeling you’re describing.
I was never into poetry until I came across a philosophical rapper through LO…every line is a metaphor or ancient saying, takes a while to wrap my head around. Maybe the only good thing that came from LO.
Snowpheonix says
Maria,
I have to correct t myself a bit here: reading and writing for me is NOT to numb LE pains, but neutralize all mortal pains/worries in the world. It gives such a high that I can see clearly “miseries” of all human existence, LE negative sides included — eternally separated from E.T. or my LE for him is departing within. But I would not feel any pain with such a clear vision, because of the creativity. It’s like a “mental meditation” on arranging words “poetically”instead of on breath. Creativity brings more and faster dopamine than simple mindful/physical meditation.
Even before this LE and other ones, I had low-grade depression (low serotonin level) which I inherited from Mother who has worse depression all her life. So physical meditation and inspired creativity can uplift it at least for a day or two. A night’s sleep, the inactive body, usually triggers depressive mood.
Unlike many other LE here, I had my peek of suffering back in 2022, but the intensity of the whole time seemed to be much less than most described LE pains here. Without a SO, one’s mind is much freer to think or feel. Also growing up used to NOT having most of things I desired or so wanted, even a toy, helped. (Grandpa bought me a toy sewing machine and Granny returned it, just because I wanted it “too much” (I over heard their loud argument). Keeping it would spoil me; so I never saw that cute pink sewing machine since age of 7. That’s kind of COO/my family principle in rearing kids. Later, I tended to create things myself or internally to satisfy myself, and no one could ever take them away!
As I mentioned before, in this LE, what’s in my head was/is more important than what was/is in his head (I did/do not know for sure). I feel disheartened that my LE/love affections (even if unreciprocated) for him would be all gone soon or later by the natural NC. Scribbling a line of two of poems actually helps me keep the warm/peachy memory of the LE (helped heal my cptsd), and perhaps lead to a “new” purposeful living, in which externally fruitful or not is unimportant, but internal gratification IS.
Snowpheonix says
@Maria,
“ Maybe the only good thing that came from LO.”
Even if “it’s the only good thing” brought to you by LO, I’d still thank for LO’s walk across your path. He has served as a catalyst/instigator for your newly found interests and appreciation for good/profound poetry. Let’s be fair to credit those who deserve(s) our gratitudes.
During the funeral and mourning period of Father’s sudden death in COO, only E.T.’s mysterious face (8 months after my quiet Glimmer), in and out of the air, mixed with Father’s eternal smiling, and his comforting words in the dawn from thousands miles away, kept my sinking spirit just tiny bit above the peach-black water…. Upon returning, I picked up the poetic pen (after a long period of pausing for creative writing). He has all the poems I wrote for or about him….
One never knows who could wake up one’s internal Muse… I’m grateful for anyone (regardless their personality flaws/shortcomings) who has helped me wake and keep my Muse up!
Maria says
You have a very different outlook on life, it’s interesting to read. I admire your ability to be so positive.
As much as I love this random artist from LO and his weirdly deep rap, it wasn’t worth the damage to my marriage. Also, I feel like my brain is permenantly damaged, it cannot unsee or undesire LO, which really irks me.
Side note, I can keep up with most of your lingo but COO…what is COO??
Lim-a-rant says
Maria,
COO = Country Of Origin
Snowpheonix says
Maria,
COO also means, Culture OF Origin. COO’s government inhumanly sucks, but there are lasting wise elements in its culture and civilization.
“As much as I love this random artist from LO and his weirdly deep rap, it wasn’t worth the damage to my marriage. “
IMO, appreciating this rapper artist does not involve your (dis)like of your LO, just the fact that through him, you got exposed to and enjoyed in some level of “his weirdly deep rap”. Without LO, you might never have crossed with this rap art. What does “it wasn’t worth the damage to my marriage” mean? Your LE/LO has damaged your marriage?
I’m still learning about separating people with matters, which means (dis)like people while (dis)like what they think or how they carry out matters, vice versa. A hypothetical example here: when you were walking in a small, dark street, a guy suddenly attacked you and was about to rape you. Just then, a thief rushed out a building nearby with his rubbed valuable stuff. For whatever reasons, he rushed to your attacked and made the latter run away. Now, what do you need/want to do with the thief? Thank him? Report him? Lecture him? Get to know him? Or sincerely thank him, depart, and leave him to his Karma in the future? COO people will choose the last option.
“Also, I feel like my brain is permenantly damaged, it cannot unsee or undesire LO, which really irks me.”
I don’t know whether LE could permanently damage a brain, you have to ask Dr L. About desires, Buddhistic approach is to treat 7 emotions and 6 desires as the human default, no one in no matter what culture can change that. The ideal ways is to understand them, accept them, and watch them rising and falling in us as long as we breathe. To blindly following their leads or resist their pulls would be futile in managing and controlling them. I’ve discussed this with Bewitched and LaR in length. They have a SO and have practiced meditation/calmly watching their LE desires without fighting, they would understand your mind and struggling better and give you more pragmatic advice.
After 15 months in LwL, I’ve come to realize that I do seem to have “a very different outlook on life” as you say. I can understand most of your (collective) mind and choices, but not the other way around, which is quite normal since most of you did not grow up in my COO under the big dictatorship. Nevertheless, the West or East, we share some fundamental common humanity such as 7 emotions and 6 desires, only the ways to manage them manifest in quite different fashions… 🐠
In COO, most folks are fatalists, the concept of Fate and Karma play a big role in ordinary people’s lives. We don’t believe meritocracy especially in any human relationship, romance, friendship or otherwise. Without knowing the word, “psychology”, most people strive to be wise, mentally touch/healthy, and stay away from any type of short-term, pleasurable indulgence, even just food. Solid, lasting friendship, gratitude (to whatever or whoever has brought one a positive/good luck for the time bing), disciplines, and let go of controlling others and world events… are more valued.
One’s hardship, mistakes, or enemies/rivals are treated as one’s valuable life teachers; without them, one can’t be toughened or obtain any wisdom!
Now, do you see why I appreciate my LE more rather than complain its dark aspects, and tend to reflect on the brighter side of the coin? Without this Fate, where would I be now?? ☺️
Snowpheonix says
Typo: “to be wise, mentally tough/healthy, …“
Maria says
@Lim-a-rant
Ohh, thanks
@Snowphoenix
I’m familiar with the concept of stoicism, and yes it really does help.
“One’s hardship, mistakes, or enemies/rivals are treated as one’s valuable life teachers; without them, one can’t be toughened or obtain any wisdom!”
I totally agree with you, and I do think I am a completely different person – wiser, tougher, etc. However, I really wish I did not have to see this side of myself. Before the LE, I could see myself as any normal good person. But now I know I am capable of losing all moral ground when in the thick of an LE.
So your phantom, is he still around (in your mind?). You’ve resigned yourself to him being around forever?
Snowpheonix says
Maria,
“However, I really wish I did not have to see this side of myself. Before the LE, I could see myself as any normal good person. But now I know I am capable of losing all moral ground when in the thick of an LE.”
Since young, I have curiously and intuitively observed others and myself, so I could always see/sense (rarely wrong) some vulnerable elements in literally everyone around /in me and my cptsd always made me feel “handicapped” for having them myself. LE is related to brain’s neural activities, really out of our control (using Stoic here), it’s not morality related. Anyone, “good” or “bad”, rational (Sir judge) or romantic could involuntarily fall in LE. Once I learned about it from DrL’s blog articles, I finally and totally come out of my embarrassed state of mind. Science/biology triumphs ideology/morality in causes and effects.
“So your phantom, is he still around (in your mind?). You’ve resigned yourself to him being around forever?”
I see that I still haven’t made myself or my LE evolution clear; It was Nisor who enlightened me: each of us has a Phantom/Muse inside us without a physical face, it is a part of our own Selfs. Once a LO hit us with Glimmer, he or she awakens this Phantom, and we immediately project this Phantom onto LO. To artists, musician, writers, sculptors, this LO indeeds becomes their Muse of creations, even while badly suffering the LE pains. In reality, all those Muses are simply sleeping inside of us before Glimmer hit. LO is just an instigator/catalyst, nothing more.
It is the same in my case. At the early stages of LE, E.T. appeared as my phantom/muse (caused also by the “fact”/illusion that I saw a part of myself in his eyes from the first second I glanced at his eyes and to the last moment we said goodbye. However I discovered 4 months after Father’s passing that he was, in some aspects disappointingly, not as I thought/felt/scripted. Gradually through many incidents in the following 6 years, I truly recognized that the Phantom is a part of my Self. In April of 2023, a dream finally helped me sever the tie between E.T. and my Phantom (wrote a poem about it and sent to him as well, he was my true confidant, as an idealized, never-existed Father figure — an E.T.)
To answer your question, the Phantom is quite alive in me, but it is not E.T. Everyone’s mind is infinitely big; he had/has a special place in my system — I’ll let my Imagination (not knowing is an advantage here) of an evolving E.T. inspire my creativity. However, the mind is as big as a sea allowing my own boat and others’ ships sailing by and around, in and out. As you can see, I’m very much engaged with ease and enjoyment in my teaching, writing, chatting with your guys, and keeping my eyes scanning around 😊
Lim-a-rant says
Snow,
I think it’s great how you recognised the projection of the Phantom onto ET and then finally severed them completely. I didn’t use to (when I was just a reader of LwL before I started chattering) get what you meant about the phantom, but now I totally do. If you read the exchange I have been having with Trifles today (and yes, you are always very welcome at our coffee huddles), I think what I’m talking about there in different words is the need to reclaim my phantom from LO. I think I’m in the process of doing it but not all the way there by any means. Knowing it is the start, I guess.
Serial Limerent says
@Snow
My muses seem to be LO’s–but not in the midst of the LE. When it’s over with, my stories incorporate it in some way. My last novel was essentially about my last LO, several years later, and one from 30 years earlier. Currently I have no inspiration to write fiction. Since my LE is mutual, I have no idea how long it’ll last or how it’ll end. But it’ll probably be in my next work of fiction somehow.
Snowpheonix says
@Serial Limerent,
I didn’t know you’re a novelist! Have you published the book you just mentioned, with your last LO, and the earlier one? Would you share a chapter or two with us here, so your anonymity would be preserved?
“My muses seem to be LO’s–but not in the midst of the LE. When it’s over with, my stories incorporate it in some way.”
Do you mean your muses are LO’s muses or LOs?, which LO? I assume one can’t see clearly enough of one’s own LE until it’s over., and thus unable to write about it fully. However, when it’s over, that heightened or peeked creative energy seems to die along LE, too. I’m striving to keep my own Phantom alive or awake, despite ET/instigator has left.
A lots of artists, after psychotherapies, claim their creative latents/energies are lost — a fault of mental analysis. Many claim that almost all Masterpieces of artworks, e.g. Belioz’s Symphonie Fantastique, Mona Lisa, The Sorrow of Whether, etc. are created through soulful, mental, and emotional, physical pains/losses.
For me, I need a certain amount of longing, even unknown, and a certain amount of mysteries, to do any imaginative work. Facts, logic, analysis interfere with creative writing process, IMO; thinking and feeling can’t take place at the same time or even side by side.
I used to need a glass or a half bottle of red wine to loosen up my rational mind, in order jolt down a couple lines of “freed” words coming out of my system… still NOT in Mother’s tongue.
Despite Mother is the original source of my cptsd, I’m having dinner with her soon (of course, I cook, as usual), keeping to practice my compassion and patience for her as an ordinary human being, who had her own share of insecurity/narcissist’s suffering.
Hope you keep writing and feeling well.
Snowpheonix says
Add: nowadays, I don’t need any drop of alcohol to scribble, only others’ poetic words (even just 3) and then my feeling or thinking out of them…
Serial Limerent says
I meant LOs as in plural….I was trying to deal with autocorrect.
I have books on Amazon. But I don’t see a way to link to them without losing anonymity.
Serial Limerent says
I guess I have to be obsessed with the story idea instead of the LO for my creative juices to flow. 🙂 I do write other things, though, like diaries, and that helps later, also songs from the LE period. The trouble is it has to turn into art and not just venting or a Mary Sue wish fulfillment.
Snowpheonix says
SL,
Not knowing you or your LOs, I can’t help to see that your novel is originated from your own talents, ideas, and sentiments at various moments and situations in your life, as long as your LOs did not put them in your mouth or head. As a stranger in a ghost land, I see your LO was there as an instigator and inspiration to wake up and assist to circulate your creative/physical energy! Even if you wish, I don’t see how you can credit your own fruits to LO, even if they helped you water the plant. The seeds were/are always in Your Self.
To keep your anonymity and simultaneously share your stories and life insights with us, I suggested that you could copy and paste here your most favorite and proud passages and chapters, which would allow us to learn something new from your LE experiences.
You could have suggested to me to read your books on Amazon without saying they are written by you! Oh, now it’s too late, we can’t unheard or unlearn….🫠
Snowpheonix says
LaR,
“I think it’s great how you recognised the projection of the Phantom onto ET and then finally severed them completely. “
It took me five years to finally realize it, with several LC/NC in between and without knowing what LE is at all! It was very sad when I had to sever it in person on the day before my new birthday. I thanked ET again for the surrogate father’s role I forcefully gave him and he “played along” just by silently listening (he did read most of my monologues and remembered some important ones). Afterwards, I didn’t have heart to ignore him at work, when he became a bit warmer.
“If you read the exchange I have been having with Trifles today (and yes, you are always very welcome at our coffee huddles), “
Thank you for inviting me to join your fun coffee huddles anytime (I had to tutor three hours this noon) , I’ll try to keep you both “on the hook” for my MBTI amusement, which tend to explored and shatter my brain. I don’t know how you two could keep a clear mind of subtle/vague differences between Js, Ts, Ps. Fs. Ns, Ss, Is….
“I think what I’m talking about there in different words is the need to reclaim my phantom from LO. I think I’m in the process of doing it but not all the way there by any means.”
I think you’re facing much bigger challenges than me, because your friend/LO and you have communicated longer and more in depth, which makes it so much harder to distinguish which thoughts, sentiments were coming from her and which were generated by you, when you were still friends and after LE kicked in. Are her words her own thoughts/sentiments or reaction/validation to what was already inside you and what you needed/wanted to hear? In my case, ET hardly ever talked about anything in his head, so it was easy to see my wishful monologue scripts were mostly created/originated from the Phantom inside me.
But if you have found you became more productive and creative during your LE, I sense and think there were already creative seeds inside you, and LO just “suddenly” shined and help watered the creative seeds; however in your LE tinged lens, it was all her who planted them. The key question here to me seems to be: why you did not feel so creative or productive when you two were just friends? WHAT did change in you that somehow brought in your LE, which subsequently energized your productivity and creativity?
Invite your Athena, Aphrodite, and Hera to debate and you listen to them attentively and honestly. Only YOU could solve the “riddle” and bring back your own entitled Phantom.
Lim-a-rant says
Snow,
It is a great question / riddle to be solved. I do think I know most of the answer. There was an almost perfect storm of colliding circumstances. I know you will say that *me* knowing it is the most important thing – and you’re right, it is. But I know you would find some of it interesting too. I’d really like to explain more, but need to figure out how to get it across without disclosing identifying information. I’ll ponder and come back to it, but probably in a coffee house post instead of this one.
I really like the metaphor of watering the seeds but not planting them.
Hope the weekend has treated you well 🙂 Busy one for me – mostly productive and nurturing stuff for myself and with SO, but marred by some wider family dramas!
Maria says
@snowphoenix,
thanks for clearing that up with me re the phantom.
“I saw a part of myself in his eyes from the first second I glanced at his eyes and to the last moment we said goodbye. However I discovered 4 months after Father’s passing that he was, in some aspects disappointingly, not as I thought/felt/scripted. Gradually through many incidents in the following 6 years, I truly recognized that the Phantom is a part of my Self.”
i can really relate to this. i’m sorry about your father’s passing. hope you’re doing ok
Snowpheonix says
LaR,
Of course, I’d love to hear more about your story, but I don’t want to poke too much of your privacy. When you dig anything deeper inside your “stories” at various times, you’d certainly find out some stones unturned…I hope.
We outsider could only blindly, randomly knock your inner “locked” doors…
Have an easy week!
Lim-a-rant says
I’m grateful for all your knocks on doors – they are really helpful and thought-provoking.
I scatter bits of the story around this place like a field of corn – it will all fit together in the end.
You quite often talk about artists and their muses and this relates a bit to how I’d answer your previous question about my LO. Is the artist-muse relationship always one way? Or can it work both ways around? I think that’s what happened – both scattering seeds, both nurturing them, seeing what they produced (this could sound very ‘wrong’, but really isn’t meant to!). It is not your typical LwL story of struggle – in some respects yes, but I will also always have good to take from it.
Snowpheonix says
Maria,
Thank you. Father suddenly passed away in Dec. 2017, and I finally felt more at peace (not as sad as before) on Dec. 2023.
This past July after my COO trip, 1st Covid, and a powerful dream, I finally become my own parents, and even began “parenting” my Narc mother.
I have to be fair to credit ET (a bit fuzzy headed and somehow “hoked”) for inadvertently helped complete my maturation journey — a big, unexpected “side effect” of my LE. As DrL and many have pointed out, LE often strikes when one’s life is at some critical period, in which some internal or external changes are highly needed.
I believe anyone could get something positive out of any experience: black or gray… if one tries hard enough, she or he could unearth some previously unknown truths about themselves and grow especially from unexpected or unwanted experiences.
Not knowing where you are in your LE story, I wish you’re recovering well/better; it sounds highly challenging.
Snowpheonix says
LaR,
Oh, boy, boy! You have possibly planted creative seeds in your LO😳 (I could not give up this rare chance to have a hearty 😂😂😂)
In theory I believe that an artistic Muse could take place simultaneously, one wakes up another, vice visa. But it needs to be truly confirmed by the other side, how do/could you know besides guessing? Also, if LO only did watering your creative, artistic seeds (not planting), then you probably did the same to her, or more❓opps… 😂 (sorry, I could not help it…😂)
For a sake of modesty and psychological health, I think it’s best/wisest never to assume that we could inspire anyone else unless they assure us with concrete proofs. Have they composed/written/painted a great piece of symphony/story/painting, and dedicated to us/our Muse-ship??
It’s a tricky business to talk about any agricultural life with men…. 🤣🤣 A cornfield❓a cornfield of LE seeds ❓😇
Snowpheonix says
Is that why Trifles’ LO liked talking with her about agriculture stuff❓🧐 Oh, my knuckled head! 🔨 😂
Lim-a-rant says
Snow,
Know that seeing your replies started my Monday with a belly laugh 🤣🤣🤣, and that is always a good thing (have to wake to dark mornings here for now, so a laugh really never goes astray). You started it about seeds!!!
Trifles says
Snow, ha! Thanks for the laughs as well. No, we didn’t get to the ‘planting seeds’ part, sadly! Usually I come up with all the necessary puns, but agriculture may or may not have been a slightly distorted example of the topics of conversation that we had. 🤔😉
(It’s a little exhausting to keep up with the vague/slightly modified details I give on here to protect the innocent (well, me). I could never be a good liar/cheater!)
Lim-a-rant says
The possible agricultural puns are very rich indeed.
But I think if we started them, we’d be ploughing depths that we really shouldn’t.
(sorry in advance)
Maria says
This conversation is hilarious.
Trifles says
LaR, start with those and you reap what you sow! 😲
Snowpheonix says
Without the depth in root, a beautiful tree cannot grow tall and would be easily bent and blown away by strong wind, especially LE storms…
Snowpheonix says
It sounds like that LaR plants corn seeds, and reaps a cornfield soon…. 😂
Have you heard a true birth control story somewhere in the South Asia a long time ago —
A government agent went to the village to demonstrate how to use birth control, but it’s a taboo language to talk about biological reproductive organs. So the guy used an 🌽 to demonstrate how to use a condom.
Next year, the guy went back to the village and passed a cornfield, guess what he saw? — every ear of coin was wearing a condom… and the village was filled with new babies! 👶
😂🤣
Lim-a-rant says
It was always bananas for the demonstrations where I went to school, Snow 🤭
Snowpheonix says
Yes, I heard of it.
But that southern Asian village did not produce 🍌 If they did, only kids could climb the trees. 🌴
Snowpheonix says
I might be wrong: from what I’ve heard a little bit that a lot of Asian countries still don’t have PE in middle/high school that teaches every anatomical function of human body, pretty much sure that’s still the case in COO.
Doc Mother used to “treat” few married couples with fertility issues; while asked what they did at night, they answered, “just shared the bed”.
In one rural area, a birth control story went like this: a government agent (always women) went from house to house to disperse tons of free condoms to wives. A year later still more babies were still born with same wives. While asked what they did with condoms, a wife said, “I brewed all of them in a soup for 3 hours, hoping the effect would be stronger and longer!”
Herbs and food are used “worshiped” as preventive “medicines”; if inedible, they can’t be effective in anyway to body! 😅
Snowpheonix says
Maria,
“I do think I am a completely different person – wiser, tougher, etc. However, I really wish I did not have to see this side of myself. Before the LE, I could see myself as any normal good person. But now I know I am capable of losing all moral ground when in the thick of an LE.”
You must know C. Jung’s individuation work, which I started two summers ago and found it tremendously helpful in bringing some peace to the old me inflected with the incomprehensible LE pains. Once I learned from DrL and LwL what LE is all about, I gained more self-acceptance of my dualistic LE and finally embraced it without feeling any soul-killing shame, which led to the ultimate disclosure without feeling any embarrassment. I needed to honestly acknowledge and integrate some very important “shadowy” parts of me, if I haven’t found all of them yet.
Have you seen this clip before (there are many out there, this one is short enough, to the point)? I think individuation journey is much more important than analysis of MBTI boxes, because a lot of us individual humans didn’t/don’t truly know who we were/are underneath of our Persona — the social mask, until some crisis hit us, like limerence, a sudden death of loved one, or big personal or professional transition…. Then, we frantically search(ed) for answers while avoiding unpleasant/unwanted emotions and thoughts….
Now, you’re out of the woods, I think you may appreciate another perspective to look at our shared LE.
https://youtu.be/T1kEn6foHBk?si=L420rsXhKOkUW5bN — How to integrate Your Shadow Self and Find Wholeness.
Lim-a-rant says
One to fit with the theme:
https://youtu.be/Bjvffx-h2KM?feature=shared
Snowpheonix says
Wow, are you joyfully ready to throw the “key” to LO to open the gate of your ploughing? 😳 😅
MJ says
LaR,
My Ex dated a Farmer who turned out to be a real $#!t-Head. Think I might just send this to her. 🤣🤣
PS,
He asked to marry her too. Thankfully she did not..
Lim-a-rant says
Snow, the only reason I would ever send that video to my LO was if I wanted to hasten the route to NC (it would go with DrL’s post ‘how to disclose if you want no for an answer’). Nah, I need to let that poor long-suffering woman set herself free to plough other fields 🤣 🤣 (in another hypothetical world, Trifles could send it to her XLO, as it would chime with his interests – but I am not, repeat not, encouraging any NC breaking)
Snowpheonix says
@LaR,
I knew you would not send your LO that “harvester”… so careful in implying you might have mutually watered a Muse-seeds in her… 😂 the other way around sounds more organically …
If you remembered that I said once that I suddenly had a glimmer for my good friend (who proposed once later) due to a dream, when we were still in college. So NC was impossible. But since there was never glimmer in the first place, it naturally died a month later. Yet, we remain very good friends up to this day (in long distance), our mutual college classmates joked about his “pursuit” (concrete actions here or there…) openly in our reunions.
My LE of that time was a dream, what was yours? If you could really nail it down and remove it, you may get out LE naturally without hurting your friendship, which I would use all my might to save/keep if in your shoe.
Perhaps reclaiming your phantom back is a right route…. Anna’s discussion with you about here therapy a while ago is helpful. Now I know through my LE, one’s Phantom, often sleeping, can only be WAKEN up in one (by Glimmer perhaps), after being planted already by god/goddess/deity/divinity…before LE.
Snowpheonix says
Grammar: more organic.
I meant the trigger of that small glimmer/LE was a dream…
Lim-a-rant says
Hi Snow,
All taken on board and I will reply properly later on a number of points (I have tried twice but keep getting interrupted and LwL has now deleted my drafts to you on both occasions – joy! Just want to send this quick one now before it happens again). All is well here, don’t worry (though I am eternally grateful for your thoughts) – all the humour from earlier is just that, humour. I have enjoyed bantering with you about it. When I can find humour, that’s a very good sign for me – there was little humour in me about the LE a year or even 5 months ago. But none of it what I said (even the comment today) is to be taken seriously.
“you may get out LE naturally without hurting your friendship, which I would use all my might to save/keep if in your shoe.”
This statement shows huge empathy and care about my situation, thank you. It’s also very true (a line I have never deviated from), and I know how to achieve it. More when I can, but I’m in a really good place and seeing progress on how to keep my friend without keeping the limerence. Things are really good between us without me keep questioning ‘is it more?’ nowadays. It is a nice thing to be able to keep saying that. Thanks for giving me a lot of help along that road with your ‘door knocking’ and ‘seed planting’.
Hope the week is treating you gently.
Trifles says
LaR, xLO has his own field (that he might have momentarily forgotten about), so we’ll let him concentrate on ploughing that.
And I’m glad to hear you’ve found humor about your LE after missing it for so long. That’s a huge win! Worth celebrating 🥳
I don’t think I ever lost my humor so I might seem a little ‘too light-hearted’ here. Also, for me limerence has never been a moral dilemma, it’s just been “get this obsession out of me before I make an even bigger fool of myself”. So I suppose that’s why it’s been a little lighter for me.
Lim-a-rant says
Trifles,
I appreciate your LwL humour (it got you a Limmy nomination), and it has actually helped me rediscover some of mine around my LE, so thank you – please don’t even think about changing it here on my account! (Same for you Snow).
Snowpheonix says
Trifles, LaR,
I am counting you two as my joking-buddies here, hearty laughs are such stress releasing and mentally healthy….😂 😂
No matter what you say, it would not be “disturbing”, but just “human all too human”….
Serial Limerent says
BTW, I just started reading Anatomy of Love. Thanks for the tip, Dr L! 🙂