Another visit to the open thread that is the LwL coffeehouse, where any topic for conversation is welcome.
Today’s ice-breaker topic is how the environment you’re in can influence the strength of your limerence. This can be as broad as the current state of your life – youthful romantic desperation, midlife disillusionment, aging regrets – or as specific as the photos on your desk.
One of the consequences of the altered state of mind of limerence is that anything connected to your LO has increased salience. You notice LO’s belongings instantly. Books and films make you think of them. Love songs make you pine for them. Your subconscious has a hair-trigger for bringing them to mind.
The more time you spend with LO, the more you ruminate and reinforce the limerence connection, the stronger this effect will become. Places you have been with them take on special significance, and even places where you have just sat and daydreamed about them gain some second-hand glamour. Their romantic flavour infuses the world. Everything becomes a cue for rumination.
It’s hard to resist this process, but once you notice it happening, you can take some steps to protect yourself (if you want to overcome unwelcome limerence).
First, there are the obvious options: remove reminders of them from your physical environment as much as you can, and redesign the spaces you live in.
Keeping photos and gifts out of sight goes without saying, but you can be more ambitious and escalate to deleting pictures or texts, changing your routines, and actively avoiding the places that have the most powerful association with LO in your mind.
Second, you can consciously bring newness into as many areas of life as possible, to signal to your subconscious that you are on a new path; one that leads to recovery. The same psychological levers – the same mental associations with place – can be used to your advantage. Creating a new environment creates new associations.
Redecorate your environment to signify your recovery from limerence, the transformation of your life, and the implementation of a purposeful new vision. Go to new places, start new hobbies, disrupt your old habits. Consciously, deliberately, leave the old world behind and look to the future.
So, that’s the starting point for this week’s discussions: how did environment contribute to your limerent experiences?
What were the strongest environment triggers for your limerence, and what tips can you share for avoiding or neutralising the troublesome LO cues?
Song of the Blog:
“Always Something There To Remind Me” – Naked Eyes (1982)
A cover of Dionne Warwick’s 1964 classic.
https://youtu.be/lVrELhxOFnM?feature=shared
Note: This song was written by Burt Bacharach and Hal David who also wrote 24 Hours From Tulsa.
It makes you wonder.
Bluebird and Cardinal
Karle Wilson Baker
I
Thou winged symbol of the quiet mind,
Thou straying violet, flying flower of spring,
Heaven-hued and heaven-hearted! Thou dost sing
As thou some sweet remembered thought didst find,
And, counseling with thyself in musing kind,
Didst softly say it over. Thy swift wing
Knows but a quiet rhythm; thou a thing
Of peace, to passion innocently blind.
Thy russet breast means married love, long hope,
Sheltered experience, small and sweet and sure.
All of the brown earth’s natural purity;
But something heavenly, beyond our scope,
Steeped thy blue wing in color strange and pure,
Intense and holy as the mirrored sky.
II
Pulse of the gorgeous world, jubilant, strong,—
Thy song a whistled splendor, and thy coat
A fiery song! From thy triumphant throat
How I have heard it pouring, loud and long.
Whipping the air as with a scarlet thong—
The joyous lashing of thy triple note
Which all the tamer noonday noises smote
And clove a royal pathway through the throng!
Thou singest joy of battle, joy of fame.
Glory, and love of woman; joy of strife
With life’s wild fates; and scorn’st, with jocund breath
For prudence’ sake to dim thy feathered flame—
Thou heart of fire, epitome of life,
Full-throated flouter of vindictive death!
III
And lo, among the leafy, hidden groves
Within my heart, they both do flit and nest,
Saintly blue wing and vaunting scarlet crest,
Yea, all of life and all its myriad loves.
Even as Nature holds them, sifts and proves
And balances, so shall my soul find rest
In Her large tolerance, which without rest
Or lagging, toward some wide conclusion moves.
So, though I weary sometimes of the stress,
Leave me not, little lovers of the air.
Dearest of Nature’s fine antitheses!
Thou of the musing voice and heavenly dress.
Thou, royal firebrand,—neither could I spare.
My scarlet Passion, nor my winged Peace!
****
Prof. Sarah R. Jackson recounts a story “that the professor in a contemporary poetry class [at University of California, Berkeley] read a poem and then proceeded to explain to the class what the poet intended. He did not realize that Karle Wilson Baker, his student, was the author because he thought the poet was a male. After he spoke at some length about the poem, Baker raised her hand, identifying herself as the poet, and gave the real meaning she had intended in the poem!”
****
Even so called experts may mistake accurate intentions of an author/speaker.
Hi Snowie,
“Even so-called experts may mistake accurate intentions of an author/speaker.”
“In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, but in the experts, there are few.”
-Zen mind, Beginners mind
Shunryu Suzuki
Grego,
I’m trying superbly hard (in vain) to see every morning as the first moments of my remaining life… the day is empty waiting for me to paint my chosen colors, in a harmonious order …
Just woke up, it is NEW here in LwL, refreshed with nuggets of individuals’ wisdom… 😀
“Then from those profound slumbers we awake in a dawn, not knowing who we are, being nobody, newly born, ready for anything, the brain emptied of that past which was life until then. And perhaps it is more wonderful still when our landing at the waking-point is abrupt and the thoughts of our sleep, hidden by a cloak of oblivion, have no time to return to us gradually, before sleep ceases. Then, from the black storm through which we seem to have passed (but we do not even say we), we emerge prostrate, without a thought, a we that is void of content.”― Marcel Proust, Sodom and Gomorrah
I so want to fill “we” with new, innovative “content”… but why the mind is so often dragged down by the past?
I blame this to our neurological circuits in our brain, and have to accept our collective human lot!
I love the idea of changing your environment to reduce limerent symptoms!
A change of environment lessened my intrusive thoughts. We went on a family vacation. The trip was a great way to relieve the intrusive thoughts and they weren’t as bad when we returned home either.
How about having to coexist in an office environment with LO and interact with her daily as an environmental factor. Not ideal.
Since this is coffeehouse I have some interesting goings on in Speedwagon land. My LE right now is a bit tampered for 2 reasons. Reason one is, I am having greater physical attraction for my other woman friend employee which seems to be lessening my daily desires for LO. This attraction kind of crept up on me slowly. It’s actually an enjoyable attraction, nothing near an LE. I find myself wanting to be in the presence of this person more lately and have really enjoyed our interactions. We talk daily but nothing deeply personal, but we do know a lot about each other’s life. And she is 50-50 effort with our friendship which I completely appreciate. Texting is minimal which is good. I don’t find this to be transference but it is a very nice distraction to the chaos that are my emotions for LO.
The other, and more interesting occurrence, is I might have experienced a glimmer with someone new who seems to maybe be pursuing me. Something interesting happened this week. There is a woman colleague of mine who works out of her home. She is married with a younger child. Probably easily 15 to 20 years younger than me and very beautiful too in a very natural way. About every other month I need to interface with her face to face. In between times we might talk on the phone here and there or text or email. All work related.
I can kind of get the sense she looks up to me as someone older, wiser, and more accomplished in her field. Also, because she is a young mom she only work part time so she is very passionate about her work.
So the other day we make arrangements to meet at her home to discuss some work related things. I’ve probably met with her 5 or 6 times over the last year and every time her husband was home too because he works from home a lot. He works in a completely different profession than us.
When I show up this week no one else is home, no husband, no kid. Every time before I have met with her she has been dressed down in casual at home clothes but this day she had a more definite cute outfit on. Also, I had never seen her in makeup but this day she was wearing a little bit and honestly looked stunning.
So usually we sit in her living room on couches across from each other but this day she had set up a workspace at her dining table to sit next to each other side by side. She also had snacks and water. Bonus! For an hour we sat elbow to elbow discussing work matters with just a bit of personal talk thrown in. She was very engaging, touched my arm a couple times, lots of eye contact, and she always says complimentary things to me about my knowledge. I usually say encouraging things back to her. Plainly, it felt very work flirty.
The final kicker, when we had wrapped up work I had to leave a bit immediately to get to another engagement. She walked out to the porch with me and we seriously had an awkward goodbye moment like a first date. I was ready to turn and leave but she kept stalling a little bit with chit chat. She was standing close too. Then finally she leaned in and hugged me goodbye. Did not expect that. I am typically not a hugger and don’t give off let’s hug vibes. She definitely made the move.
Upon driving away in my car I felt like I had just been on a date. I honestly don’t think she has ill intentions but I do think she really enjoys the in person interaction with me and maybe is just a bit more affectionate than I am used to and I triggered some level of ‘this man gets me’ emotion in her.
Later that day I actually had to text her to follow up on some work item we discussed earlier and she wrote back a nice big thank you message to me for coming over.
I find myself thinking about her and the whole thing quite a bit this weekend. I need to be very cautious and perhaps create some boundaries if things escalate. I could see myself talking for her if I’m not careful. At the same time she has stroked my ego some and I felt flattered by the attention.
LO definitely taking a back seat in my thoughts right now. But my strategy with LO does not change. Strict LC is still in effect as I know I can fall back into distress over LO easily.
Correction…not talking for her. Falling for her.
@Speedwagon
Be careful!!!
Put your boundaries up for sure.
A nice ego stroking feels good and being flattered is extra nice, especially after the bitter bite of an recent LE.
Don’t go there my friend, she is just a work colleague, a married one with a young child.
Good Luck!
I second Anna’s insightful comment here.
There are so many guys like you in work places…. *sigh* without your LE awareness… Please don’t mislead her in anyways, which would be really mean and emotionally malicious! 👹
Sorry to disappoint you, Speedwagon, but I don’t think the new woman was making a play for you. I would guess that she was just enjoying time away from her kids. I am a little confused by the touching and the hug, but it isn’t enough to assume that she has feelings for you.
Please maintain good boundaries with all the ladies at work. Everyone benefits from good boundaries. The better your boundaries, the safer people feel. When people feel safe, they can be authentic and good relationships will develop.
Thanks for the update about your other female friend. Sheesh, Speedy, you have so many of them, I feel like we need to label them.
How about these names?
SO
LO
Lady friend
Glimmer girl
Speedwagon, I want to help you understand how desperate us moms can get for adult interactions away from our children.
One time, when I had 4 young kids at home, my husband took time off work so I could fly to Atlanta to attend my nephew’s graduation. It didn’t quite work out. There were problems with my connecting flight and after spending 9 hours in the Chicago airport, I gave up and took the last flight home. I never made it to Atlanta. Everyone who I told about my experience offered sympathy because I was “stuck in the Chicago airport for 9 hours.” I didn’t need sympathy. For 9 hours no one demanded anything from me. No one pawed at me. There were no fights for me to referee. There were no meals to prepare or messes to clean up. I had many conversations with adult strangers. It was wonderful! I had a great time.
I suspect your glimmer girl just wanted to feel like her own person. Her husband probably took her child out so she could meet with you in peace. She probably dressed pretty and did her makeup because she wanted to feel pretty. It probably has nothing to do with who was visiting her, she just wanted to feel better about herself. True that the touching and the hug was odd. I’m not sure what to think about that yet.
I didn’t hug many people at work, but there was a man who reminded me of my grandpa who I used to hug. I also hugged colleagues on special occasions like going away parties. One time, I hugged a colleague after I learned that my dog had died, that was super awkward. I’m not sure why she hugged you.
Anyway, I hope that helps.
Speedwagon,
I would add myself to the building cluster of repliers who would yell “be very careful”.
That ‘work date’ experience as you’ve described it is peppered with red flags. But I can see how different parts of it would ring virtually every limerence bell that exists in my head. I could tell you stories about how this sort of blurred boundary (work-social) stuff has just escalated and escalated my LEs.
It sounds like an absolute classic glimmer moment right there, a bit like how you have described how you originally got glimmer for your LO.
The LwL ladies who have replied so far seem to think she is not trying to lead you on, it is just our old chestnuts of “we make them feel comfortable” and/or “they look up to us at work”. Not trying to dispute these replies as they are probably right! They are just blurry things as a male to experience, probably always will be.
I don’t really understand the “don’t lead her on” response as I don’t see that you have done anything to lead her on, other than go to her house in a work capacity like you did before, but find you had a very different dynamic and experience than before.
I don’t blame you for having enjoyed this experience a lot. You have had a long battle with managing the LC and awkward office relationship with LO. There must be strong temptation to transfer it away, especially to someone who is not so in your face in your immediate office environment. Go careful though and ask yourself if you want to put yourself through it all again.
I hope I will never let myself go through an LE again. I have held the line firm that we previously discussed about not disclosing (directly and slantwise, at least above the ‘plausible deniability’ level). But what this leaves is a rollercoaster of uncertainty, high and low cycles, intrusive thoughts and how to cope with almost daily coexistence with my LO despite all that. It’s tiring. It could get like that for you again if another woman gets behind the walls like your LO did. Other things (being with my SO) being equal, I would run a mile at the first sign of glimmer in future.
Oh, forgot to say in my other reply but I find hugs a limerence devil. Once it happens once, there is this constant nagging “should we or shouldn’t we hug next time?”. And then the kind of rumination loop if they don’t give a hug next time “what did I do wrong this time that meant she hugged me last time but not this time?”. Cue massive over thinking. My LO and I even talked this issue out once, which sounds so ridiculous when I write it!
Thanks for all the warnings. Yes, I have zero intentions with any of these women. I enjoy their friendships and working relationships and because I know of limerence I don’t intend to get myself (or them) caught up in any of this nonsense again.
But, point being, these occurrences can act as a nice distraction from LO.
@ Lovisa…I agree with you. I don’t think glimmer girls intentions are romantic. The hug was a bit weird but on the other hand some people are huggers. Maybe that’s just her. She doesn’t get in contact with me more than needed or normal so I don’t feel like she’s pursuing me at all. It was just a bit of an odd meeting but I can understand why.
@ lim-a-rant… Yes, it has been such a tough long battle, and still is with LO, that distractions are welcome. As for the hug, I just felt awkward about it in the moment but I appreciate that I am at least huggable.
If these moments act as distraction and get you further down the road you’re looking to travel (distance from the distress with LO), then that’s a very good thing. Especially if you can keep them at arms length and not get sucked into an LE with either of these other two women. I’d say that’s all pretty encouraging for solving the main issue.
Hi Speedwagon,
I can relate to what’s going on. I think once the last LE started to wind down, I began to have room for other “glimmerers” — if that makes sense. For me, I see limerence being a bit cyclical. It wants to start a relationship/pair-bonding experience. It lasts about two years, but once NC happens, it goes away 100% for that person.
Perhaps what is happening is since you’re actually doing the work to go LC with your LO, your limerent brain is trying to “start up” another one, or can see potential glimmers. This is where you and I are similar — where we have to try to shut down the potential and the start of another LE.
I can relate. I am in the same boat — not wanting to let another LE happen, but still having a heightened awareness of the glimmerers that walk around and interact with me.
I remind myself that some people have different love languages, and I remind myself that their kind words or their brief hugs or whatever are just their ways of communicating kindness. I, too, am trying to keep boundaries for myself to prevent more LEs from happening. It’s a tiring mental and emotional game we play. 💙
Just blaming our blood! 🩸
******
THE FLOOD
Robert Frost
Blood has been harder to dam back than water.
Just when we think we have it impounded safe
Behind new barrier walls (and let it chafe!),
It breaks away in some new land of slaughter.
We choose to say it is let loose by the devil;
But power of blood itself releases blood.
It goes by might of being such a flood
Held high at so unnatural a level.
It will have outlet, brave and not so brave.
Weapons of war and implements of peace
Are but the points at which it finds release.
And now it is once more the tidal wave
That when it has swept by leaves summits stained.
Oh, blood will out. It cannot be contained.
*****
😊
@speedwagon
In my previous message, I meant to put quotes on “mislead”.
Based on your description, it sounded to me (&Anna) the glimmer girl had already glimmered at you (with all her interactive pastures and hug…). If you’re not very careful or even bit “colder” later, she’d misread and misinterpret your normal friendly, now fond attitude while interacting with her and may further perceive (— we all know how LE altered mind works) things you do not and would not intend, that’s what I mean by “mislead”, NOT intentionally.
You seem to Sense females’ glimmer well, you’ll find out what’s going on with her mind soon or later….
Those Lady Colleagues sure do know how to yank our chains don’t they? I certainly get how those friendly/flirty interactions with them make you feel. I guess just to mirror what everybody else mentioned here, I’ll also add to please be careful. I admire how you have always seemed to be very much in control with your dealings with LO, despite the setback she threw you. I don’t know if I could have been as graceful.
These Women hardly seem to be the player type and you know how you felt last time after disclosure. Maybe try to keep that front and center so you keep your mind from wandering.
Although I understand the ego stroke and how flattering that can make you feel inside. Addicting and great for keeping LO thoughts at bay.
You have a good life at home still I presume? Even if these Women were actually interested, is it worth the soap opera it could become?
Hi MJ, thanks for the words. Yes, I don’t often get that kind of attention so it throws me a little. But I actually appreciate the disruption in my thought cycle that it has provided.
Just to be clear, the woman at work I am friends with is not giving off any vibes of anything more to me other than friendship. I’ve gained a bit more affection towards her in the last few weeks but in a good way. A way that distracts me from thoughts of LO also. But not in a limerent way at all.
Yes, things at home are really good. Except this weekend, we had collective family meltdown this weekend over some superficial nonsense…lol.
MJ,
If (and the ‘if’ is important) you’re both OK with it (and nothing you have said leads me to think either of you is leading the other on), and you don’t feel uncomfortable or distressed by it or think it will turn into that, keep going with the friendship. Neither of you sounds like you’re doing anything wrong, just enjoying a light friendship with a member of the opposite sex. Try not to overthink it.
“Being an IGNORANT “black bird” is no fun….”
Hey Snow,
Glad the air has somewhat cleared. Please don’t consider yourself an ignorant Blackbird. I don’t think that.
I actually didn’t give Lovisa that nickname. Someone on here, back when I first got on to the forum (possibly LostInSpace or Adam, not sure exactly) was referring to her as that and I found it quite appropriate, so it stuck. At least from her style of writing and the way she responds to others’ situations.
We’ll have to come up with a good nickname for you.
@MJ,
I first used “black sheep” for myself, then I realized that I never baa baa baa like a sheep ever since I incidentally dived into LwL. I was a red 🦜 , sometimes roamed like a 🐦⬛ Either color, I am the ONLY one.
No hard feeling on any ghost here. Like Granny, I don’t have stamina or energy to hold ghostly grudges against anyone here or in reality; otherwise, I could not “soar” in the edgeless sky 🌌
Like Father, I could play a comedy 🤣 on stage, just to cheer myself up, even when some 😢 dripping in my sole nest…
MJ, Good luck with your Lady friend.
MJ,
“Although I understand the ego stroke and how flattering that can make you feel inside.”
I think the goal is that you (universal “you”) appreciate and enjoy a nice moment with someone, a little flirtation or acknowledgment that they find you appealing and like to talk to you … and then you move on. It’s not something you’re thinking about much afterward. You’re not piecing it apart or seeking it out again with that particular person. Or you’re not putting the feelers out, looking for it and feeling the need to find another person to give it to you if someone else stops providing it. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with enjoying a nice moment with someone. I don’t agree with Sammy (sorry, Sammy). I think most people enjoy some validation from other people, and I think that’s ok. (This is if you have an SO.) And if you don’t, you’re putting that energy toward people who are available and reciprocally interested.
Well said, Marcia!
Friendly interactions are lovely if everyone remains grounded in reality, but if one person makes it bigger than it is, the relationship becomes awkward.
I’m glad you shared your experience with us, Speedwagon. It sounds like some of us panicked for nothing. You already intended to behave appropriately with these women. I think your friendship with Lady Friend will continue indefinitely as long as everyone mostly follows the rules. What a cool opportunity!
I understand why you enjoy feeling “huggable.” I suspect that you are getting an abundance of hugs at home, but it feels more validating when it comes from someone new. We all enjoy feeling like we appeal to the opposite sex.
@Lovisa,
After all our painful LE experiences, respectively, to pre-meditate new related scenarios, to set up pre-cautions in mind and appropriate boundary in actions is wise and kind considerations in depth for one’s own and others’ well being — not simple “panicked for nothing”!
Lovisa,
Try to speak for only yourself, not any others here in LwL… everyone has his/her mind that may and may not resonate with yours… Still, you’re only representative of yourself at any given time…
Miss Lovisa is not generalizing everyone’s LE. She’s simply stating that as (serial) limerents we need not overact to the opposite sex interactions. For the majority it hangs on us limerenets to not blow simple interactions out of proportion. I suspect there are a vast minority of manipulative or poacher LOs and Miss Lovisa is merely pointing that out. Miss Lovisa has never stated anything to garner limerence in a fair light that might lend a limerent astray.
Adam,
Are you one of some who “panicked for nothing” in Speedwagon’s new situation?
Never say “never”, or one ends up eating one’s own words…
“And if you don’t, you’re putting that energy toward people who are available and reciprocally interested.”
Marcia,
I get what you are saying about enjoying the friendly vibes and then moving on. I wrote that in thinking of myself because I have the tendency to not move on so well. (I figured Speed has it under control because he always does, it seems.) When it comes to my Lady Friend, I am the one usually seeking her out, putting out feelers and dissecting her words and actions. I do this because we are both actually available.
My goal most days is just NOT let it get it to a limerent phase. Which I find challenging because she does have glimmer girl moments that seep out now and then. It happens usually when our eyes meet or I get her to smile at me. It’s very addictive..
I think I’m able to keep the limerence vibes at bay though, because the uncertainty just isn’t the same as it was with LO. Lady Friend is generally receptive to my friendliness. I try to be someone positive for her. I feel like it’s been a long time since someone has been able to be that way toward her, so I think she sees my presence as a welcome change. Or so it seems.
MJ,
“I figured Speed has it under control because he always does, it seems.”
Based on what I wrote, I don’t agree.
In terms of your situation, I’m not clear what it is that you want. Honestly, she doesn’t sound like that good of a friend. From what you’ve written. You seem very aware of what you think she needs. Is she doing the same for you? I don’t see this turning into a dating situation or one where you’re spending time outside of work.(Unless you have already and I’m getting the details wrong. If so, I apologize. There are a lot of stories on here. 🙂 ) But it doesn’t sound like you’re interested in dating in general right now (I’m not sure about that, but you haven’t expressed interest), and since she’s not tying up the energy you would be using to meet other women and it doesn’t sound like you’re limerent/pining for her, I don’t know that you need to chuck the friendship. If you’re getting something out of it.
Im not saying anything about Speedwagon’s scenario. I’m saying that I don’t vibe with you saying Miss Lovisa shouldn’t speak for other limerents yet you are speaking against her before she can post back and defend her post. That’s just as guilty of you as you’re accusing her of.
@Adam,
Please carefully read my 1st message to Lovisa, which is specifically responding to hers: “ I’m glad you shared your experience with us, Speedwagon. It sounds like some of us panicked for nothing.”
Based on my perhaps biased reading, I don’t see any post last night or this morning was “panicked for nothing”. They were all individual considerations (based on our different LE insights) for the both sides in Speedwagon’s new situations. Who “panicked for nothing” at this early stage, despite everyone sensed something different from Speedwagon’s honest, detailed “confession”?
I did not generalize or “accuse” how Lovisa spoke in the past, but ask her to speak for (or judge) only herself in the future.
I was one of the ones (and I can count 5 or 6) whose immediate response to Speedwagon was ‘be careful’ – whether or not you call it panic.
I would be with Adam in saying we shouldn’t be too keen to pick at others’ responses. Speedwagon originally said “I could see myself falling for her if I’m not careful”. He didn’t add in the first post “…but I will be careful”. Cue the ‘be careful’ from several of us.
He later clarified he has no intention of being sucked into a situation with this new glimmer, and that it was a point more about how some female validation is helpful to move on from his LO. I replied again above signalling that the second post cleared it up.
Lovisa will want to speak for herself but I think her sequence of responses were similar. Her “seems a few of us panicked without reason” [which does not imply all of us] has the perfectly reasonable subtext “thanks for clearing that up Speedwagon, and I now understand what you meant”.
I think this is just a misunderstanding and what Snow means that it is right not to brush off a glimmer but to use that to be proactive about how you plan to respond to it (but sorry Snow if that’s a misrepresentation).
All of that can be right at once.
One of the things I most appreciate since I came here is getting different views from different people. I can then choose what to do with them. It is a great strength of this community and is worth keeping.
“Based on what I wrote, I don’t agree.”
Marcia,
It’s fine if you don’t. I’m hardly one to see all the angles he could be coming from. Yet I also don’t believe he is on the threshold of taking things to the next level either. Historically from his posting over-time here, it seems he has always known where the boundaries are. At least that’s how I read them.
As for my situation, I’m only laying the ground-work for Lady Friend and not trying to be pushy in any effort to date. I don’t think dating is on her radar either right now. Every once in a while, things get personal but nothing is ever forced. I’m simply enjoying the hell out of the friendly banter, getting to know her and teasing her in a very playful way.
The often-thinking about her is real and since it takes me out of LO fake fantasy world for a moment, I feel like I’m getting what I need for now.
MJ, my reply went in the wrong place but please see above.
Adam, you are so sweet! I love how quick you were to defend me. I hope you never second-guess your eagerness to take care of others. It is so awesome. I love it! I can’t speak for all women, but I definitely love it!
Lim-a-rant, your assessment of the situation was spot-on! You are right that I didn’t intend to speak for everyone. My response was for Speedwagon. Speedwagon and I were new to LwL around the same time. I was there before he disclosed to his LO and I encouraged him not to. I encouraged him to consider that his LO’s-signs-of-interest were actually signs of friendship. Speedwagon has been equally supportive and helpful with my LE journey. When I read his comment about glimmer girl, I thought, “Oh no, Speedwagon is going to make a mistake with glimmer girl. How can I help him stay grounded?” It turns out that he was already grounded and he just hadn’t included it in his original comment. I wanted to acknowledge that Speedwagon has good judgment and I wanted to acknowledge that my initial response was wrong. It had nothing to do with Snowphoenix, and I wish it hadn’t come across like it did.
Snowphoenix, I don’t even know what to say. I feel like I have to choose my words carefully when addressing you. I don’t want to hurt you or cause offense. I’m sorry that my comment was poorly worded.
Thank you LaR,
I appreciate your words and posting here. You’ve become a valuable asset to the Community..
@Lim-a-Rant,
Thank you for your courteous explanation about your specific views on aforementioned Speedwagon’s situation, I always appreciate individualistic points views whether they align with mine or not.
I am often bothered by individuals talks/posts using generalization phrases like, “we ladies… we women… men tend to… or we humans… ” Unless science/biology based matters are discussed such cold, or neural activities, etc. Each of us could only speak for ourselves, influenced/impacted by our vastly different cultural background, upbringing, and personal experiences, which makes what we want to and need to say highly valuable and interesting, even if what appears black to one may end up showing white to another.
I had terrible arguments (I’m known with a short/quick temper in LwL) about this with a couple of posters last and early this year; I disagreed that any of us could presumably represent another (even if from the same cultural background, race, sex… ), unless an individual clearly admits she or he agrees with another on specific topics or points of views. I asked them to use the term “I think/feel” or “in my opinion” or “based on my experiences…”, which also made myself watchful for my own words (I’m an odd ball anyway, unable to speak for anyone else. )
But few posters continue generalizing for others, as if they had some kind of authority on involved matters, which just annoyed me to no end or simply shut up my eyes to their posts. But if I was involved in a specific discussion about a specific “case”, such as Speekwagon’s, then I am forced to speak up my mind. What I said only represented my views, no one else.
Moreover, some of us here have anxious-communication (aka attachment or connection) style with high sensitivity, such as myself. “Panicked for nothing” is a condescending], triggering phrase to use, especially loaded on “some of us” without the user herself.
All words/phrases carry meanings and connotations, potentially sever as weapons to hurt others whether speakers intend it or not. I wish at least native speakers could choose English words/phrases more carefully and sensibly. All of us here are carrying LE pains or other psychological aches in one way or another. Again, “caring”, “concern”, “consideration”… all do not mean “panicked for nothing”.
Back to the case, when you guys are all considerate for Speedwagon and his possible reactions to this new glimmer, Anna and I were concerned for this young mother, who could be sucked into a LE as a limerent, if speedwagon is not careful and ended up “misleading” her without his slight intention.
Still, as a ghost to either Speedwagon or this glimmer girl, who has absolute no impact on any other ghost’s life, I think it’s kind and justly to care for both sides. Should limerents feel okay or careless about possibly igniting/inflaming LE in others to sweetly/amorously massage our ego or vanity?
I agree with the view that cool-heartedly enjoy any type of validations from others is fine or healthy, as long as you do NOT chase or crave for them with any amount of anxiety. Treat them as a bonus of life, but not a goal for pursuing, whether you have a SO or not.
Thank you for listening.
MJ,
“Yet I also don’t believe he is on the threshold of taking things to the next level either. ”
No, I didn’t say that.
But as a general rule, I’m talking about going to the Circle K and flirting with the clerk. And enjoying the moment, if it happens, and then leaving. Not a searching for the validation and particularly not repeatedly with the same person or people. (This is if you have an SO.)
“As for my situation, I’m only laying the ground-work for Lady Friend and not trying to be pushy in any effort to date. I don’t think dating is on her radar either right now.”
I’m not sure what you mean by groundwork. Obviously, I don’t have a crystal ball, but from what I’ve seen with girlfriends who, for example, text a guy for what feels like forever who they never end up dating (they meet online or sometimes even in person) and from what I’ve experienced myself, if things are going to happen, they don’t take a long time to get going. That’s why I wrote: If you are interested in dating, I’d put my energy elsewhere.
@Lovisa,
“Snowphoenix, I don’t even know what to say. I feel like I have to choose my words carefully when addressing you. I don’t want to hurt you or cause offense. I’m sorry that my comment was poorly worded.”
Thank you for your consideration for me in advance, I never doubted your good heart, like a butterfly, flying to understand and soothe every new poster’s aching heart… No one has done as much as you did!
You did not hurt or offend me personally (I was not panicked, but concerned, more for the glimmer girl, based on my own LE experiences and Speedwagon’s description… ). I just did/do not like to hear some sort of summarization or judgment for others, based on one’s own individualistic views. I had a huge argument with Sammy on this last year, I’m not particularly picking on you.
I’m sorry to cause your unease now. Take a good care!
@Lovisa
Take no offense at how you worded anything. I understood clearly where you were coming from. I’m sure many others here did just the same.
We’re all going through our own personal LE journeys here and nobody can really decide or make us do what may or may not work best in our situations. We come here to vent, have fun sometimes and glean from others opinions or thoughts. It’s that kind of spirit that’s helped push me through this episode. Had I chose to stay offended when I got here after posting my first time, I never would have come back. What a terrible mistake that would have been.
Keep doing you Ms. Lovisa. Remember you didn’t earn the title of Community Den Mother for doing just nothing.
@MJ,
Are there any other titles, besides “Community Den Mother“, elected or granted to anyone else, before I landed in❓
Being an IGNORANT “black bird” is no fun…. 🐧
Snowphoenix
I am sorry I snapped at you. Miss Lovisa was the first to talk to me here when I first arrivec and get very defensive of her. This isnt the only time Ive tested Dr L banning mr for my guarding her. Miss Lovisa is very dear to me. All that said I always enjoying reading your viewpoints on things. So I apoligize to you dear lady. Drinks on me!
MJ
Why havent you asked Lady Friend on a date? Dont make me do it for you cause that’ll just end up me drunk doing Air Supply karaoke. Lol
Snowphoenix,
Thank you for responding to my post.
I pick my words carefully (sometimes failing to get the point across clearly as a result!). Not everyone writes in the same way, and probably can’t be expected to. But I do understand your points about cultural difference and about the different fragilities we all carry to some extent – as limerents and for other reasons. I’ll be mindful of that as I post things.
As you’ve acknowledged, the efforts Lovisa makes on here to welcome people and to jump to help them arr very big. Seeing that happen with other people (knowing they felt welcomed and not judged) was a big thing in pulling me into finally giving some of myself here , after 6 months of just reading all your stories as I sought solace and understanding about my LE.
I think Sammy often (not always) tries to look for and learn from commonalities in limerence, in the way that DrL or Tennov might do. I have found some of that useful to understand mistakes I’ve made to land me where I am now, how to prevent them again, and what I can do to have a better chance of moving forward. I am now guilty of trying to interpret and speak for another person (and Sammy can correct me if I’m wrong), but I don’t think it means that he thinks everyone’s LE is identical. I agree with you that phrasing like ‘generally’ and ‘often’ can help here.
I appreciate your perspective too and am glad this all seems to have been ironed out between all involved. Probably Speedwagon is best placed to confirm which of us have judged our responses right.
@Adam,
No need to apologize to me, I understand where you came from; your sincerity and eagerness to defend Community Den Mother is so cute, that I could not help 🤣 .
Seriously, no offense taken here from me; but please remember that I strive (not always succeeded) to discuss, debate, (dis)agree on points of views on specific matters, not on speakers/posters themselves. After all, what do we know about each other in reality? Only parts of our mind related to LE are shown in this forum, yet they’re vastly different and colorful 🌈
I’ll take your drink, though. Cocktail 🍹 is always my choice.
🫂
MJ, I am glad that you returned to LwL after your initial post, too. It was quite a post and you had quite a reaction from other commenters. You bravely addressed all of our concerns. I’m so glad you did.
@LaR,
Thank you for your sincere reply.
“I pick my words carefully (sometimes failing to get the point across clearly as a result!). Not everyone writes in the same way, and probably can’t be expected to.”
I’ve already seen it in most of your posts. Studied at college here for literature/poetry writing, I’m fond of playing with alive, fascinating words, even English is my second tongue. It’s not all about words grammatically arranged, but choices of words depict one’s logical or creative mind — the millions of subtly entwined walnut curves, and its considerations for humanities, others and oneself.
Lovisa’s welcoming role as the LwL gate faire is indispensable and irreplaceable (she was off the duty when I arrived last July), I sometimes marveled at her tireless energy to warmly speak to almost every new poster, inquire about their cases, and non-judgmentally open the seemingly scary LwL sanctuary to them. But as I just spoke with Adam, when I open my odd, “biased” mouth, I tend to focus on points of views on specific matters involved, not speakers/posters themselves. Can I (dis)like some ghost without (dis)like their views on specific matters?
I always call everyone “a ghost” here — almost in a literal sense without knowing anyone’s realistic identity, not even a face, except DrL/Tom now. So I hope my posts are not taken as personal attacks. There are only relevant “lose” or “win”, relevant “win-win” or “lose-lose”. Nothing is ever absolutely right or wrong, based on which part of the Pink Elephant a “blind” man is touching. And everyone and everything is changing and evolving — “In Eternal Flux”…
In general I agree with your interpretation on Sammy’s posts that logically and theoretically focus on commonalities in limerence, which is indeed very useful to understand some aspects of our individual cases, like the causes of your LE as well as mine (continually realized more a couple of days ago through others’ random chats), and general means to prevent future limerence (I successfully killed a new glimmer back in March within one month). He’s very insightful with his own case, which is common to the rest of us as a human being (regardless sex/gender), but it also differs from everyone else due to his unique upbringing and particular set of cultural “quirks” — the same can be said to each of us here.
However, Sammy used to stress on morality side of LE and was constantly “disturbed” by my “immoral” views (while other LE posts were responded “saintly” by him), while I focused on psychological colors of LE, which is indefinably affected by cultures and unique individual experiences. Among regular posters here, I’m the only one who was born and grew up in the far East, so a lot of your (collective your) cultural views, assumptions, definitions, summarizations or conclusions do not apply to me. Tell me who in this forum has ever lived out there for at least 1 year? (Not a tourist). In Sammy’s limerick, the speaker could not figure out what Snow was after, but even herself did not know clearly back then!
You have eye-witnessed how FAR a misunderstanding could go between a “verbose” Australian Grandpa and an a 50/50 Stoic/Buddhist “Amazon warrior” — all the Way to Jupiter! Several rounds of “War and Peace” ended up with my Stoic/buddhistic walls decorating his Jupiter pebbles/jewels thrown at me and Mila’s brownies landing in his britches, not his mustache bushes as they were aimed at…😂😂😂 (I like tasteful jokes that would uplift my mood)
On a serious note, even DrL states that each individual’s LE is different from another in its colorful details, scope and pain-inducing degrees, depending on limerents’ life circumstances, their personality and maturity. That’s why I cannot stand hearing generalization of any sort, anything limerence or humanity related is NOT set like mathematics! Also, let us not to forget some inspirational, creative sides of the early stage before a full-blown limerence. I’m still learning about myself through reading others’ new cases, to see what resonates with my LE and my mindset…
I totally agree with you that Words, “often/sometimes”, “in generally”, “maybe/perhaps”, “In my opinion/limited views”… would be much appropriate to use all the time.
Hmmm…Seedwagon’s case, is to be seen in time…. Without disclosing this time, let’s see how he’s going to confirm the Glimmer girl’s true mind…
“Being an IGNORANT “black bird” is no fun….”
Hey Snow,
Glad the air has somewhat cleared. Please don’t consider yourself an ignorant Blackbird. I don’t think that.
I actually didn’t give Lovisa that nickname. Someone on here, back when I first got on to the forum (possibly LostInSpace or Adam, not sure exactly) was referring to her as that and I found it quite appropriate, so it stuck. At least from her style of writing and the way she responds to others’ situations.
We’ll have to come up with a good nickname for you.
“Why havent you asked Lady Friend on a date? Dont make me do it for you cause that’ll just end up me drunk doing Air Supply karaoke. Lol”
Adam,
I might just have to hold out even longer now so I can see you do that. Lady Friend would be amused too I think, lol..
Seriously though, I haven’t asked because I think I’m afraid of making it obvious to her I’m having feelings. Like it would be a disclosure. Of course I could tell her it wouldn’t have to be a date. In a way, I’m fearful of rejection again, kinda like it was with LO. But things are definitely different this time around.
Her and I definitely make time to connect at work. During some serious downtime last week, we literally met at the water fountain and ended up talking for over 2 and a half hours. About anything and everything. The next night we took a class and sat together during a presentation
of Active Shooter strategies and what to do in the workplace if there ever was one. I kept telling her if it ever happened she could hide anywhere because she’s tiny but she’d have to promise to call me so I could rescue her.
I think she always suspects I’m interested but I guess I’m afraid of ruining a good thing in case she doesn’t see me that way back. Sometimes I feel like the age difference may be keeping her on the fence too. But I figure I’m simply better off not knowing if I don’t ever ask. The last thing I want to be compared to is her Father or like the Big Brother she never had.
MJ
Buy me a few black & tan’s and I ain’t afraid to belt out “Making Love Out of Nothing At All”. I’ve liked it since before I even knew what the song was about. My folks had a record of it that I played a lot.
“you can take the darkness from the pit of the night
and turn into a beacon burning endlessly bright”
I was a terrible drunk single. Before Momma. She initially and by extension the two men she brought into this world made me a better person. Dunno why she found love with me in the begining. It’s like she was doing all the work and I would just black out. So yes she took my darkness and made it burn bright.
Anyway, that’s a little heavy for a Monday morning. I was mostly kidding MJ. I hope that however your relationship with Lady Friend is that is enjoyable for you both. And I get the age difference. Though most all the ladies that have worked here are significantly younger than me. So I have kinda go the “self depreciating, I’m the old man jokes” to keep it safe.
Though it gives me hope for the newer generations when one of the young ladies heard me singing Bee Gees while I was waiting on hold … “I love the Bee Gees!” Someone slightly older than our oldest son said that. But at the same time she said in regards to music she said “Adam aren’t you a little old for Shawn Mendes?” 🙂
It’s funny how different, yet at the same time, age can connect us all. Here’s to hoping however it goes with Lady Friend that you always at least stay that; friends.
And yeah that “rescue”. Why is that so hard to resist? But I am sure she would want you to rescue her. From what you have said about her anyway. You’d just have to work out a schedule so you can rescue Lady Friend and LO right? *wink wink*
Snowphoenix
Thank you for your grace. I really do always enjoy reading your interactions, whether I respond to them or not. Especially your conversations with Sammy. You two are always either a joy to read together or twist my brain in knots lol But I enjoy seeing that you can debate each other with comradary. And as MJ said you are not a “ignorant blackbird”. Just because the vast majority of us are from the western world doesn’t mean that we don’t appreciate your distinct perceptive based on your up bringing. I know I do.
@Adam,
Thank you for your sincere message! 🥂
“…Especially your conversations with Sammy. You two are always either a joy to read together or twist my brain in knots lol”
The verbal 🤺 with Sammy “twist my [walnut curves] in knots” as well, so much that when I reached my COO soil back in June, I had my hair cut very short so no “knots” could be entangled on my 🧠
Nowadays, Sammy is worried “to be seen talking with ❄️ 🐦🔥 ” in case her frequent “inappropriateness” spins Sammash’s dragon tail out of Jupiter… ☄️ Thus, I can only monologue on the stage here… 🎭
Adam, are you gradually cutting down your 🍻?
@Snow,
I do appreciate the different perspective that maybe comes partly from your cultural background, lone wolf as you are here with the Eastern COO insight.
I admire all the focused efforts from posters to control their LEs and move on. But this said, much as our conscious can try to build the needed walls, sometimes our (or at least, my) subsconscious gets there first and just bulldozes out the foundations. You have helped me get and tolerate that.
This isn’t to say I can’t or shouldn’t start building again. But what I’ve taken from bits you’ve written is that sometimes people (I) shouldn’t be too quick to berate themselves for these actions that are beyond conscious control. Sometimes we have to just sit with what’s happened and learn from it.
Some of what you’ve said like that has given me fresh insight. As a result, although the LE has been incredibly tough to bear, I haven’t destroyed myself over it. I have ‘lived with’ limerence for what feels a long time. Much as I might have liked to push it away and have tried, I haven’t succeeded – I can’t be NC and nothing else has properly worked yet. I have lived with it without cheating and without blowing up my life, my relationship with SO or my friendship with LO, despite constant internal battles about it.
We could debate if this is sustainable (I know it may not be), but this is meant to be more a point about the past. I have taken my time to work it out. I have not always had conscious control over it. Nothing there makes me an inherently bad person. Sure I have made my mistakes but partly it is just where this point in my life has found me.
Anyway – I’m now monologing with the ghosts but my point is some of your posts have helped me with self compassion about my limerence, and that self compassion has stopped my mental health going too far South when it easily could have. So I appreciate that, without disowning my errors or the need for purposeful action.
“Also, let us not to forget some inspirational, creative sides of the early stage before a full-blown limerence”
Quite.
I could wax lyrical for ages about the fantastic uptick I got in mood, productivity and creativity as the color filled my world for about the first six months of LE. I restrain myself as I don’t want to glamorize it for others. There was definitely then a turning point when the ecstacy turned towards rumimation, pain and ‘coping’, and all productivity went back to a base level, probably even below it (please take note any others reading this with barriers – I would nip it in the bud early given my time again and a fully conscious choice). But that doesn’t mean the good bit before the turn didn’t happen or that I shouldn’t be OK with finding some good from the experience.
I did see the bit about brownies, britches and bushes, but the Jupiter bit is lost on me! Is it something to do with an extended ‘Venus and Mars’ analogy?
@LaR,
“I do appreciate the different perspective that maybe comes partly from your cultural background, lone wolf as you are here with the Eastern COO insight.”
Thank you for your compliment, particularly as a lone wolf, or perhaps a “lone 🐦🔥 ”
“But this said, much as our conscious can try to build the needed walls, sometimes our (or at least, my) subconscious gets there first and just bulldozes out the foundations. You have helped me get and tolerate that.”
Before coming to LwL after learning about a bit of Carl Jung’s theories, I’ve noticed that (my) Unconscious always battled and mostly beaten my conscious mind, consequently affecting my decision making and actions. I was quite strong-headed/willed, you could imagine how defeated/disappointed I felt each time (my) Unconscious won. In my case, Unconscious was always more powerful in terms of affecting my moods or resisting or reversing what the logical minds told me to do. It took me a while to learn how to relax just a little bit of my conscious mind, not enough yet in some areas of my own life.
“But what I’ve taken from bits you’ve written is that sometimes people (I) shouldn’t be too quick to berate themselves for these actions that are beyond conscious control. Sometimes we have to just sit with what’s happened and learn from it.”
Yes, absolutely! Berating oneself at all for some (in)actions driven by physiologically and psychologically involuntarily urges/pushes is just unscientific, unwise, and futile. I just left Anna a message talking about making a peaceful acquaintance with one’s Limerence, as if it was an alive being, given birth by our DNA and fed by our brain’s neural system.
“Some of what you’ve said like that has given me fresh insight. As a result, although the LE has been incredibly tough to bear, I haven’t destroyed myself over it. I have ‘lived with’ limerence for what feels a long time.”
Limerence itself, as a form of an addiction in one’s head, is not so scary, not certainly would destroy anyone’s life. I’ve survived several LEs ignorantly in both worlds and am rambling about it now with keen awareness of LE’s natures.
“I can’t be NC and nothing else has properly worked yet. I have lived with it without cheating and without blowing up my life, my relationship with SO or my friendship with LO, despite constant internal battles about it.
It seems that you can control your LE to a manageable degree, then what are true incentives for you to need/want to get rid of it? What are those “constant internal battles” about? (No need to answer me if uncomfortable). Do you or can you have any polycule tendency, if it were allowed in your circumstance?
“I have taken my time to work it out. I have not always had conscious control over it. Nothing there makes me an inherently bad person. Sure I have made my mistakes but partly it is just where this point in my life has found me.”
“…not alway had conscious control over” what? “Nothing there”… where? In your opinion what could possibly “make anyone an inherently bad person”? How do you define “inherently bad”? “bad” In terms of morality or what? I’m a bit confused here.
Everyone, with Zero exception, has made mistakes over their long or short life, no big deal at all! Otherwise, we could not have learned anything from and about life! Do you think your mistakes could have (not) influenced/impacted (conscious or subconscious) “this point in your life”?
Growing up in a buddhistic tradition, I was “programmed” with a certain amount of compassion, dominantly for others. Self compassion was quite new to me before I watched tons of Youtube clips from “The School of Life” (I highly lean on its Stoic, Buddhistic, and many classical/modern philosophical values). I had to meditate a great deal before I finally obtained some self-compassion for all the mistakes I’ve made in my life, not just limerence — smaller of which is just a big crush, who hasn’t have it?
“I did see the bit about brownies, britches and bushes, but the Jupiter bit is lost on me! Is it something to do with an extended ‘Venus and Mars’ analogy?”
Yes, it’s an extended “Venus and Mars” analogy — I am from Mars, Sammy Jupiter. I have one of my two wings, he one of his four feet soaring over Venus from time to time… 😆 ( 📣 but where is the 🐉 tail? )
“Adam, are you gradually cutting down your 🍻?”
Snow
I have been trying to, yes. Some days I am better at it than others. But I have been noticing that I am frequenting the liquor store less than I use to be, so that is at least a good sign I think.
I do know that alcohol is not a good sleep aid, but I have been using it for so long for that, that the evenings before bed are my most difficult times. Especially if Momma is already asleep and I can’t talk to her. But I have been trying to relax and try and fall asleep naturally in the evenings instead of drinking.
I have a lot to do this coming Friday (took the day off from work) and I hope that I can concentrate on those tasks, one being taking our oldest boy’s cat to the vet, she seems to be ill, and keep my mind off drinking for the most part of the day. I have some traveling to do as well. Gotta talk to my boss in person. So that means driving down there and facing triggers. But I prefer serious conversation in person and not on the phone. Stay sober and busy is what I am going to try to do. The new gal who we hired (this will be my first time meeting her in person Friday) shares the same name as LO’s oldest daughter. Whenever I would say “I always wanted a daughter” when we would talk about kids she would say “I had two of them, no you don’t want a girl”. 🙂
Like everyone else has said to you — be carefull.
Don’t read too much into anything, and become intimately familliar with all of the materiel offered on this website.
Looks like there are a few discussion tangents my story has created.
I appreciate all the “be careful” wisdom here. I completely agree, there is a lot to be careful about. Because I am still limerent for LO my emotions are screwy at times and I don’t want to get caught up in something new and stressful. And I will admit, there was a time I didn’t have boundaries and fully pursued my LO. I am much wiser now and better at interpreting these interactions as mostly meaningless.
I 100% agree with Marcia, if a fun, maybe even somewhat flirty interaction happens, just enjoy that moment and move on. The nice thing about them is I do believe they can help you move your mind off of LO. I do welcome that.
Same with the friendship I have with the woman at work. If we have strong friendship boundaries, and I value her, and she values me, the greater affection I feel can be pleasant and positive and welcome in the midst of my toxic and chaotic affection for LO. Right now I am enjoying that feeling of affection but not in a weird euphoric limerent way. I know what that was like in the beginning with LO and this is not it.
And to Snow Phoenix, I did not read into your initial response as anything malicious. I knew what you were saying and I appreciate that viewpoint. I don’t want to play on anyone’s emotions because it makes me feel good. And honestly, it did make me feel good. Gonna keep it professional.
I find it a little tough because I live and work from home, alone.
Even though I’m surrounded by nature and good friends, my environment can be lonely at times. Perfect environment for intrusive thoughts and ruminating uuuggg.
I most definitely need a holiday, but in the mean time I have to make do with the situation that I am in. And I am.
It’s been 9 months NC with LO and as much as I’m doing well, I wish it was better.
I have got rid of pictures, texts, literally anything that would remind me of him.
And for the most part it most certainly has made a difference.
Songs and certain things of course will pop up as usual, nothing we can do about that.
I will throw my 2 cents in here of what has helped me.
#1) most definitely has been starting therapy, I truly believe my Limerence stems from my neglectful childhood and my anxious attachment style.
There is some debate on why different people are prone to Limerence, but for me I’m quite sure it’s that. And I’m making good progress!
#2) being more social and trying to get to know new people.
That’s a tough one for me too cause yeah, attachment style lol
Even just changing up my routine makes a difference!
#3) (tough one) Absolutely refusing to even entertain the thought of transferring. (LO #2 was a transfer and I’m still banging myself in the head for it.)
That is a conundrum because I’m trying to meet new people and I’m deathly afraid of maybe getting a glimmer for someone but thanks to Dr. L at least I know what a GLIMMER is now!
I’m new to the Limerence game and I’ve had 2 LO’s in 2 years! Is that a record? lol
Believe me, I have thought of it, just to end this underlying sense of blahness like something is missing, heart aches a little. Ya’ll know what I mean.
Again, I’m fairly lucky in a sense that my LO lives far away from me so I can’t just bump into him at the grocery store or run into him through mutual friends.
Even then he still tends to live rent free in my head sometimes, but it’s getting better!
Hope everyone is having a wonderful weekend!
It’s rainy and cool here in Northern Canada at the moment, hopefully the sun and warmth returns soon.
Anna, I’m happy to hear your steady progress; you’re doing all right things, although so challenging!
I’m far, far behind you, so don’t ask me anything LE related… I’m not trying anything hard in any direction; otherwise, my Unconscious would always beat my conscious to the opposite of wherever I want to reach… It has been proved uncountable times throughout of my life…
So I let myself consciously “float” a bit above the LE water while trying to explore new mental shores/territories…
Losing my last job might turn out to be a blessing ⁉️— definitely a turning point of my small life…
I think you should take more short vacations/getaways, just to get out of your routines.
Ciao!
Hi Snow!
yeah, it’s challenging! but I’m plugging along.
It’s like trying to swim in mud lol
My therapist actually told me to take a break, from everything!
So I’m like you right now, just floating around trying not to trigger myself.
Seems like our minds work alike 🙂
Sorry about your job but a total 180 might kick start things in a whole new direction!
Yep, got a nice little holiday planned not far from here for 5 days
Then off to see my family in Germany in September!
Auf Wiedersehen!
Anna,
I think swimming above “muddy pond” is where we both are… it requires some quiet time to tie down our sails — let mud sink down to the bottom of the mind.
We have similar traumatic childhood that dominantly caused our LEs, thus our sensitive, sometimes “fragile” mind spins in very similar ways, in or out of LEs.
Enjoy your coming vacations! I’m sure they will help soothe your body, mind, and spirit. 👐
Anna, the word sensitive” in my previous post should be “anxious”, which sometimes made us to feel —
****
ACCEPTANCE
Robert Frost
When the spent sun throws up its rays on cloud
And goes down burning into the gulf below,
No voice in nature is heard to cry aloud
At what has happened. Birds, at least, must know
It is the change to darkness in the sky.
Murmuring something quiet in its breast,
One bird begins to close a faded eye;
Or overtaken too far from its nest,
Hurrying low above the grove, some waif
Swoops just in time to his remembered tree.
At most he thinks or twitters softly, “Safe!
Now let the night be dark for all of me.
Let the night be too dark for me to see
Into the future. Let what will be be.”
****
Our blood will make us soaring again, hopefully wisely, not just “safe” landing in the “tree”….
Marcia, we had a discussion about physical intimacy in a long-term relationship on a different article. I don’t remember where we had that discussion. It was on my mind last week. You said that you couldn’t think of anyone who you wanted to have frequent intimate relations with for twenty-six years. I appreciate your honesty. I don’t understand it, but I appreciate. Your words came back to me several times and I found myself wondering why anyone wouldn’t want that. I’ll try to give an example.
We were on a road trip last week so we spent many hours in the mini van. My husband rubs my feet when we drive long distances. It feels so good! While my husband was rubbing my feet I had a thought, “I will never stop enjoying my husband’s foot rubs.” Then I remembered your words. I wondered why anyone would stop enjoying something that feels so good. Physical intimacy with my SO feels good so I don’t understand why I would stop enjoying it. It also brings us closer together which I love. I just don’t see a downside.
I wonder if some people enjoy newness with their partner more than physical intimacy and maybe that is the reason some people don’t enjoy it with the same person for a whole lifetime. I don’t know. It’s my best guess. I got stuck on our conversation because I don’t know why anyone wouldn’t enjoy something that feels good.
Lovisa,
“Your words came back to me several times and I found myself wondering why anyone wouldn’t want that.”
I’d feel trapped under the expectation.
“Then I remembered your words. I wondered why anyone would stop enjoying something that feels so good. ”
Sex is much different than foot rubs. Foot rubs don’t require me to do anything. 🙂
It’s not that you don’t want sex at all, but you’re not dying for it like you were in the beginning. Part of it is psychological. What’s taken away, over time, is the sense of anticipation and longing. Which is huge. Because you know you’re going to get it. And the hormones die down and things go back to normal physiologically. You’re not all revved up. It’s very common.
“Physical intimacy with my SO feels good so I don’t understand why I would stop enjoying it. It also brings us closer together which I love.”
There’s really knowing someone and then there’s sex. Those are two different things.
That makes sense! It’s the obligation that makes it less desirable. Okay, I understand now. Thank you, you have a talent for explaining things.
Lovisa,
“It’s the obligation that makes it less desirable. Okay, I understand now.”
That, and all the other reasons I mentioned.
Marcia,
” Part of it is psychological. What’s taken away, over time, is the sense of anticipation and longing. Which is huge. Because you know you’re going to get it.”
Yeah, there’s something about the excitement of wondering if you’re going to get laid as opposed to knowing you’re going to get laid. When you get to the stage where you know that it’s “when” as opposed to “if,” a little something just disappears.
Carly Simon put it pretty well.
“Anticipation” – Carly Simon (1971)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_3TN_LhGgc
Writing in Rolling Stone, Stephen Davis gave a glowing review of the album. He called the title-track “a spirited examination of the tensions involved in a burgeoning romantic situation in which nobody has any idea of what’s going on or what’s going to happen.”
That phase can be positively magical.
LE,
“Yeah, there’s something about the excitement of wondering if you’re going to get laid as opposed to knowing you’re going to get laid. When you get to the stage where you know that it’s “when” as opposed to “if,” a little something just disappears.”
You can even know you’re going to get it, but, for example, you don’t know when. None of this is healthy, but maybe it’s an FWB who calls you intermittently. There’s something about having to strive for it. Or wonder about it. You’re trying to get something you don’t have. All of that is removed if … well, it’s always there.
“Carly Simon put it pretty well … “Anticipation” – Carly Simon (1971)”
Her best song is “You’re So Vain.”
“You walked into the party like you were walking onto a yacht.” Great line.
You don’t need to provide me the link. She confirmed years ago who it’s about. 🙂
Marcia,
“Your So Vain” is a good one.
One nice thing about the internet and technology is you can see an artist’s discography over time and see how how things change over time. Simon’s work covers a lot of different aspects of relationships.
For example, this song is Carly’s expression of a woman who’s had enough. LO #4 lived in Hollywood with her BF and I think of her when I hear it. I love Simon’s edginess on this song.
“Tired of Being Blonde” (1985)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKaaF757mIw#ddg-play
LO #4 used “Legend In Your Own Time” to describe her ex.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI68BcPjehg#ddg-play
Usually, I could follow her pretty well but aside from the title, this one escaped me.
LE,
Oh … “You Belong to Me.” Another good one. And the song that was written for the movie “Heartburn” … “Coming Around Again.” Another good one, and a good movie.
“Tired of Being Blonde” (1985)
When I originally heard this song years ago, I thought it was about a woman who was tired of creating her other self every day — the hair, the makeup, etc. But hearing it today, she’s tired of playing a role for some guy.
“LO #4 used “Legend In Your Own Time” to describe her ex.”
I’m not sure what this is about, either. James Taylor? It was released in 1971. They married in 1972. I don’t know when she met him.
I was originally going to make a post on “Internal versus external drivers of limerence”, especially on the topics of insecurity and uncertainty, but then it started veering off into more personal stuff. So I put it here instead.
I have found that making declarations to yourself that you will follow, in the event you do encounter limerence again, can be helpful. I say this based upon two experiences: The first being a LE I experienced about five years ago that began dramatically and ended even more dramatically with me losing everything, including my job. The second experience I am referring to is that I have only recently realized that I have slipped into limerence once again (CONGRATULATIONS!), but this one has been a yearlong slow-burn that is intensifying.
The declarations I made to myself five years ago after suffering the most ignominious limerent rejection I have ever heard about anywhere (and it was mine), was that “I will NEVER disclose my feelings to any LO, or potential LO, or anybody else ever again, going forward.” I also made the declaration that I will NEVER discuss how I feel about a LO, or potential LO to anyone, especially if they know the LO! (Actually, I made this declaration twenty years ago after another limerent rejection.) My policy now is simply to “keep my ears and eyes open” and passively learn from what is going around me in the environment, instead of asking questions that are likely to make people more cautious about what they say around me.
I nearly slipped up yesterday when a family member was asking me about any romantic prospects I may have, asking me if I go on Tinder or go clubbing or anything like that. Then he asks me if there are any women at work, in which I replied “Well, there is this girl that works in our department, she’s been there for about a year, and all the guys like her.” Then he asks “What about you?” I reply “She’s a third my age.” What I didn’t tell him about was all of the little bread crumbs she has been throwing my way that COULD mean something.
The looks of longing she gives me are the hardest to ignore. I am even starting to feel bad, that I might be the one who is the mean one now. However, taking all of the lessons I have ever learned from all of my past failures, and taking to heart all of the wisdom presented on this forum, I am absolutely determined to walk away with my self-respect intact this time! As crazy as this sounds, if she really wants to get to know me, she will have to be the one to make a bold move; if not, I am totally OK with letting it go. I will NEVER expose myself like that ever again – NO! NO! NO! I’M NOT DOING IT!
Sounds kinda similar to what I’ve been going through, earlier this year (albeit within a shorter timespan).
The ‘fantasised’ outcome (ie other than recovery) for us limerents is mutual feeling, which implies that our LO be limerent for us in return.
Since there is a snowball in hell’s chance of that, then any disclosure is gonna be catastrophic.
As I found out with my own LO, chances are that yours gives ambiguous friendly gestures to anyone she feels comfortable with.
Mine revealed – when tipsy, at an office party – that she flirted with several guys, each in private (so each guy could imagine that he was the only one she was attracted to), but only one was she serious about.
Like many young things these days, she is probably also on Tinder and other sites (NO, don’t check!).
This is the opposite sort of relationship to limerence: casual hookups whilst encouraging multiple potential partners (ie, the dating game).
It’s a bit like fishing, the fun part is hooking and reeling in your fish.
Catch & release.
She probably also expects to be pursued.
So long as you can keep your own emotions in check, nothing will happen.
Except it’s gonna be hard to get closure whilst there’s still contact, and breadcrumbs.
When she finally gets her own SO it will be easier, as she’ll be unavailable – but if she’s more interested in playing the field, you might have to put up with her puppy eyes for an agonisingly long time.
@james
One thing we do learn about being Limerents is lessons!
The more LO’s we go through the more times we say to ourselves “oh hell no! I’m not doing that again!”
I most definitely make declarations to myself and It’s very helpful.
I tend to look at it as installing more boundaries for yourself, and that’s a good thing.
The burns hurt but now we have learned to keep our hand (or heart) outta the flame. That particular flame anyway.
I never disclosed to my LO’s.
It would of been fruitless anyway because #1, I acted like a fool anyway during my LE’s and #2, they both had narcissistic traits.
I just would of walked around with an eggy face. At least I was smart enough to realize that before it was too late.
So, yes, I’m keeping my ears and eyes open too
It’s the least we can do.
I think I need some emergency advice. I saw my “coworker” this morning and she is acting super shy and quiet around me now, when she is usually a confident, happy-go-lucky chatterbox. It is not my aim to damage her self confidence or self esteem, just because I’m still angry about what my last LO did to me five years ago. I think I might be taking this aloofness act too far. I am genuinely concerned. What should I do, if anything?
James A,
I personally think you should treat her with genuine warmth and friendliness professionally and humanly, holding an unreserved Buddhistic compassion inside you for her “longing” eyes — it’s no deliberate fault of her. Trust me, you’d feel good about yourself when you are genuinely kind to another.
It would be unfair to treat any new female encounter based on your past bitter LE experiences.
A good luck!
James,
Are you the same James A that posted several years ago and got fired over an LE with a co-worker?
If you are, don’t let history repeat itself. If you aren’t, my apologies.
She’s a third your age and a co-worker?
That puts you at 55+, more likely 60+ and her likely in her early 20s. She’s young enough to be your daughter.
Those are not good things in a work environment. It’s an EEO complaint waiting to happen.
Do you realistically see developing a relationship with this young woman? It’s not that it couldn’t work, it’s just that from my observation, relationships like this often don’t and end badly. To me, acting shy and quiet around you indicates that you got her attention and she may like it. I recommend that you be very careful.
Personally, I’d be flattered if a woman young enough to be my daughter showed an interest in me but I’d wonder why. For me, a woman younger than 50 could easily be my daughter. LO #4 is almost 15 years younger than I am and I wondered if that would have been a problem had I been available to pursue things. It’s hard to accept that a woman in her 40s is out of my range but the fact is, she is. If I were on the market and actively looking, my range would be 60-75 but I might go down to maybe 55.
Keep things civil and professional. If for no other reason than you won’t give other people in the office something to talk about.
Yes I am that same guy, and I’m laughing my ass off because even five years later someone vividly remembers my first posts on here, because the outcome of that LE was so bad it could probably written down and sold as a book. I also thought it had to be a one-off once-in-a-lifetime freak convergence of improbable circumstances, but here I am again in nearly the same situation at the job I got after losing the last one! But yeah, I’ve done fine for this long – I just need to maintain the same boundaries that I already have in place. And thanks for bringing me back to solid ground.
James,
Do the right thing no matter how you feel. Treat her the way you typically treat coworkers if you possibly can.
If you can’t be warm, at least be polite.
If you can’t be polite, be boring.
Try not to be cold. This is not her fault and she doesn’t deserve coldness.
James A, if she had a great relationship with her father or grandfather, she might see older men as father/grandfather figures. She might see you as a grandfather figure! Don’t make this weird for her.
This reminds me of a recent streaming series based on true love stories in the New York Times. One of the stories was a college girl who saw her 50-something boss as a father figure, and spent lots of time with him, because she didn’t have a dad in her life. But he was recently divorced and vulnerable and thought her attention meant she was in love with him. Things got–weird.
Are you her manager? Is there any reason it is required of you to interact with her? Seems to me you are well within your right if you feel better steering clear of her. She is not entitled to your friendship or attention. Do what’s right for you, don’t let her shyness manipulate you. That’s her issue to work through. Sooner or later she will just steer clear of you.
Thank you to everyone for your advice. I think I have done well for this long and no one except you people are even aware that I have even noticed this girl. So, I just need to keep doing what I have been doing – easy! Thank you!
Eh, I wouldn’t dwell on what she’s thinking or feeling.
No LO is remotely affected anywhere near as much as the limerent, in personal interactions.
You are, at best, a source of validation for her.
At worst, you are probably just a flirting practice dummy.
Yeah, I had this same problem.
Keep things friendly and respectful.
You can still make lighthearted conversation, even fit some banter in, if you worry that you’re coming across as stiff (this is more in your own head, than hers).
Avoid personal topics (especially wrt how you are perceiving her feelings), ie keep it professional.
And try not to be alone with her.
I work in a store where I am my own department lead and the overwhelming majority of the other departments have male-leads and male employees. My end of the store is all Gen X (or even older) and we have more senior and seasoned employees (I’m on the younger side). Additionally, there is usually music playing for us or customers and the overwhelming majority of the songs are from the 70’s-90’s and about love and lust.
Basically each day of work is a limerence trap.
I still adore my ex-LO and wish I could be his best friend and confidant, but as these things go I’m finding that I’ve grown quite attracted to another coworker that is single, classically handsome, a diligent worker, closer to my age and cognitively intact.
I need to look for a new job…
@Snowphoenix
WOW!
I would of never thought that english was not your first language!
You definitely have a way with words, so eloquent!
For any of us that has been here for a while and conversing with the regular posters, I think we all kind of conjure up a mental picture of what we all look like? I do lol
For the ones that I think live abroad I even assign a british accent to your post!
When I first got here I even though Dr. L was a woman
Then he started to refer to himself as male, and then introduced himself with a picture, I went woops!
( sorry Dr. Tom, I thought maybe you were Lucy Bain that blogs Neurosparkle) hence Dr. L
Anyway, so off topic here but kind of funny.
I appreciate you all!
Yes, Anna, we all have our conjured “visual” pictures of the regular ghosts here, and they stubbornly stay in my head, unless ghosts reveal themselves, like DrL.
I have you as a medium/slim build/height, physically agile, with short straight, brownish hair. I absolutely have no idea how I get this image!
By the way, in my COO, all English courses taught from k-12 and in colleges have been using British materials, so English broadcasters on TV there speak close to British/German accent, very little American. I have my own accent, but not that of my COO or any of Asian countries.
Needless to say that I grew up with a very different culture from the West, which has been diluted a great deal by multicultural colors from both Europe and the US. So I end up living in my own one-woman’s land accompanied by a bunch of LwL ghosts.. 😁.
After receiving DrL/Tom’s newsletter last month, I replied, “…I still feel like living on the margin of LwL and will try to stick around…”, although I shared a lot of common LE symptoms and affects with you ghosts. There is something evasive in me that I cannot even grasp… In addition, I seem to constantly change/evolve, compared to the old me of last week or even yesterday❓🐧
I’m glad that you sound like more light-hearted and definitely more confident! 👏 I’ll learn from your spirit!!
You are close!
I’m 5’8″ slim build (I run, it’s my favorite thing)
I have shoulder length blonde hair
I’m a first generation Canadian, my FOO are German/Scandinavian
I have a Canadian accent (eh?)
“So I end up living in my own one-woman’s land accompanied by a bunch of LwL ghosts” love it, sounds like me.
I was born in Canada but pretty much lived the European culture at home.
Like you I’m a tapestry, I think alot of us are these days.
Not to be personal but I can sense that (living on the margin of LwL) with you.
Almost like you feel you don’t quite fit in? I could be wrong so please excuse my bluntness.
I’m evasive because I feel not worthy, not worthy of anything, even though I know I am.
Like grasping at air.
I’m rambling…perks of living alone.
I hope you stick around!
Anna,
Each of us is made of tapestry, only that I don’t like to be hung on a wall staring life downward; I’d rather roam around poking every ghost’s ears when I’m in a maniac state. 😁
You’re right that I rarely feel “fit in” (since the childhood) anywhere online or in reality, but I could wear a decent enough social mask while feeling terribly alone inside — not necessarily lonely, though. It’s hard to build human connections when one feels “unfitting”. Good books and wild imagination were my best companions while growing up and will be during my declining age. Mingling with “wrong” crowd or LOs has been proved to make one even lonelier…😔
On the other side of the coin, living marginally allows one to move in and out of any social circle more easily without been messily entangled in any set of often aging, stifling rules/concepts, which I know enough in both East and West. Non culturally conforming gives one excuses to invent or act out unexpected, shocking, exotic stuff… how are you going to check their accuracy/truths if never lived in the East? 😜
Moreover, without obeying ridged rules/notions but bending them from left to right, right to left, back and forth, one can create one’s own atmosphere, culture and living art to thrive upward and dive downward in the whole edgeless sky 🐦🔥 or sink to bottom of a muddy pond for a long or short repose….
Our human life is so short, do we want to pass it under heavy wight of routines? (Of course, working, ideally for one’s own interests/passion, is necessary to keep one’s brain spinning.)
Anna, without clearly 👁️ your “evasiveness”, I know you’re worthy of something inside and outside of you, unique or shared with other souls! You’ve already shown here your willpower, insights, and disciplines in dealing with your LE (similar to mine in its origin)! Freely speaking up anything here when you feel lonely, ghostly-soulful connections can be instantly gratifying or long-term satisfactory, depending on their depth.
Somehow I think you’re living not far away from me . Maybe in one of those long-winter dreary days, I’ll hop on a train to stir up your Canadian quiet sky… ☺️
Anna,
I come across this video clip that deals with intrusive thoughts and overthinking (it’s me!) — it aligns with mindful meditations with specific hands-on techniques. It is different from CBT skill, ineffective to me because it still fuels a thought from its opposite component, thus unable to remove it.
Hope it helps in some ways.
https://youtu.be/V3vhXQy48jo?si=AhCCzcp85f67FEhp — Intrusive Thoughts and Overthinking — The Skill of Cognitive Defusion.
@Snowpheonix,
Can you do me a solid and tell me what you think I look like, too? 😃
@LN,
I’m sorry I can’t. Honestly, all I have about your possible look is curly long blondish hair passed down your shoulders. 😄
Excluding this one, I jammed LwL with 20 posts in a single day, Today… I’m indeed becoming a maniac in rambling… in a foreign tongue 😜
Can someone here help figure out what’s going on with me? 🤔
French Macarons and 💋 for rewards… 😜
If I were to guess, it’s probably averting/distracting our minds with something else, to benefit from not ruminating about LE/LO. From what I could read from your posts, you do have an array of your favourite activities to do in finding healthy distractions 🙂 At least I think so because I do and feel the same way most of the time.
Some people have tried to diagnose me with some fancy psychology terms, but I haven’t been checking myself to a psychologist/therapist for this. Neither do my parents think it was a bad trait, as when I was growing up, I recall the flavour of chamomile tea without knowing what it was much later in life. I deduced that my mum was probably trying to calm my hyper mode bursts (mentally and physically), lol.
@why,
You’re on the target…. Here are French Macarons and 💋!
I don’t like psychology labels, either, except they help me sometimes look into new directions to understand my own perpetually perplex thoughts or sentimentalities… My parents were too busy to notice a feisty red bird’s struggles in the cultural “iron cage”, even after I physically escaped from the weekcare “cage” three times before turning to 6 yrs.
Yesterday when I went to grocery shopping, I literally picked up and then put down a box of Vanilla Bean Gelato twice and left the store without it. I knew what I would do if it sits in my refrigerator. 🫦
Acting one’s selfs out on a “stage” is a healthy, creative and productive way to curb down some helpless negative emotions … 🤪
So good to see your “rare” face here!
Thanks for the virtual French macarons and here’s a virtual flying kiss on the cheeks back 😉
I totally understand the need for labels, as much as I dislike them too. This can be extended not just into psychology, but also into music genres and types of art, etc. I’ve seen the arguments from both sides and I concluded that it’s useful for ease of understanding the first time, but not any further in appreciating each uniqueness and depth of character. In that way, the nuance can be seen better once the labels used at the start dissolve.
Hope you don’t mind my “whack-a-mole”-like appearance in this community. I know myself too well for having addiction tendencies, so I’ve only chosen to engage once in a while in between just lurking to read updates in the comments. I appreciate the insights and stories shared here, and yours is one of the few I could relate to most as I’m not from the West either.
The cultural iron-cage is one I could relate to so well. Despite living in a multicultural Asian community, my government made COO/religious identification stick to an ID card that we’ve made to bring everywhere, like cash or a driving license. Like you, I feel like a quiet outcast who had no choice but to push the societal pressures back while, in my case, still choosing to live in my home country with my husband who’s from the West.
@why,
📣 Hooray! 🥳 hooray! 🎉 Hooray! 👻 “why” is also from the East! 💃 she knows and understands some of my “whys”…🧚♀️
Every ghost here has at least one (in)famous addiction — the gigantic Limerence! So please don’t feel self-conscious about your “addiction tendencies”, that’s what we are here to work on in LwL. If we had none, you and I might have ended up in an Asian nunnery on a high mountain… losing our unique chance to meet so many colorful Western limerent ghosts here…🌈
I can’t stress and explain enough the most devilish soul-imprisonment of a “cultural iron-cage”. Most people from the West can intellectualize it, but cannot feel it, like one person can’t know what another’s specific headache feels like. So sometimes, our mental or spiritual pains are misunderstood, underestimated, or even brushed off (My French Godfather did this to me once, and we got into a huge argument. My French Mother tried very hard to sense the dark impact of my COO’s “iron-cage”.)
It must be very hard to still live in your home country, more so under such a strict ID system, does everyone there has the same faith or could choose a different one or none? Lucky you have a Western husband. Still, I think you could be quite lonely as a societal “outcast” over there. Please forgive me if my guessing is inaccurate.
We spoke briefly before last year, but I could not remember why you are here…. Ah, just incidentally found one of your old post: https://livingwithlimerence.com/coffeehouse-the-big-barriers-to-limerence-recovery/#comment-48236
You’re a painter who also performed in a band. How is your painting or other creative work going?
I’ve been Stoically trained in this site to be more and more cheeky, as you can see… so don’t mind me, I like joking around 🤣 when I’m in mania.
Please feel free to chat when you feel like it…
@Snowpheonix,
Are you feeling euphoric and/or manic?
Do you have a new limerent object in sight?
It’s hard to assess an LwL “ghost”!
💙
LN,
I feel more manic…. Underneath the surface, “why” knows why…
No limerent object in sight at all… it only dashed into my orbit once in a blue moon… once he sets in, all other starry eyes on my flights “lose” their sparkles… The younger, heterosexual, handsome Romeo shined only one month in my 👀 — his “innocent” beauty leaves little room for my imagination, although his eyes are sexy enough subjectively…
@Snowpheonix,
I am not blonde, but I was for a little while when my hair went through it’s natural childhood metamorphosis (white — blonde — golden — brown). So, my hair is currently naturally brown. Thanks for your guess; that was fun 😁
@Snowpheonix
As much as I am on a rollercoaster these days, I have decided to live my life out loud!
You are right, life is too damn short.
I’m embracing the hell out of everything, good or bad.
Limerence seems to overpower every attempt I make to squash it down.
So I looked it in the eye and said “Have at it”
Thank you so much for your vote of confidence, it means a lot.
Anna,
“As much as I am on a rollercoaster these days, I have decided to live my life out loud!”
Why not! As an ordinary human being, we are all equally entitled to live our life full and loud, with our unique set of merits and mistakes — a default of human life. Who is “judge” to say otherwise? Which human mind does not resides all Olympian gods/goddess who have fought non-stop with each other and made tons of irrevocable mistakes, so what? That’s life.
“I’m embracing the hell out of everything, good or bad.”
Good or bad? By whose standards or which measures? What and why is it good or bad? I’d ask myself those questions.
By experience, we all know the power of limerence, but why it sounds so morally bad if it originates from our DNA and develops in our head all involuntarily?
Again by a physics law, the more you push an object, the more it pushes you back; it works 100% the same way in psychology. So just keenly watch our limerence, calmly acknowledging its existence in us, and even talking with it — “Have at it”, while persistently taking LC/NC step by step, one day at a time.
Your increasing confidence shines through your recent posts, compared to the earlier ones last year…
What external factors helped me get rid of limerence?
Besides obvious NC, I have bought a property in another country and was spending all my time decorating it, going back and forth between the 2 countries. I kept myself occupied all the time. Due to that, after spending first 6 months from NC in sheer misery, the rumination, the missing and the ache slowly diminished over a period of 1,5 year, to come to a bearable level. (It took that long for live to die. :/ ). But still not completely gone. It came down to ruminating few times a day for a couple of hours.
Then a strange twist of fate happened, as I tried to deal with 30(!) kg I had put on during the first 6 miserable months of NC. I got Ozemp** prescribed, due to my pre-diabetes and started to exercise extensively. When I reached the dosage above 1mg per week, it affected not only my apetite, but it also literally erased leftover involuntary ruminations like an erasor gum! Within a day.
Now (still on ozempic) I am completely indifferent. I can think of him or watch the photos, but without any emotional reacton. Factographicaly, nothing more. Just gone.
I am really, REALLY pleased with this unexpected ‘side effect’ and wish I knew it much earlier, but there is literally nothing to be found on this topic.
So much about the dopamine and serious food for thought.
As for the triggers, I didnt have much of that. It was just that big heartache I carried around like a stone on my chest. When he vanished after 2,5 months if relationship, I kust avoided the places we went to. I mussed him, nit the things or situations. Aching for closure. Then when it came out he was ill willed (married with kids and misled me) heartache was simply substituted with angry ruminations. Still involuntary and equally hurting.
Preoccupation was my savior. And radical truth. On a conscious level I was completely honest to myself and kept NC. But it was like my body and mind were completely possessed. Like I had stepped in a crazy rollercoaster and it had to run it’s course.
How it all played out in my case just made me sure that limerence is not ‘a lesser form of love’. It is a neurochemical trajectory that had to run it’s course.
Hi Snow,
I have moved this down the bottom as the scrolling was hurting my head.
“Thank you for your compliment, particularly as a lone wolf, or perhaps a “lone 🐦🔥 ”
Quick clarification here that ‘lone wolf’ is a colloquialism – the word choice ‘wolf’ wasn’t for any other reason. I see that even since I wrote that you have met another member of the Eastern pack here! (aside – your phoenix looks like a phoenix on my computer, whereas it looks like a cute blue-winged bird on my phone).
A lot of the answers I will give below are framed by moral beliefs instilled in me. Not in a religious way, but in a sense that parents instill certain beliefs in kids at a young age, and there are also dominant Western societal beliefs for how people should behave and judgements made if they don’t. I have pushed back against some of this as I got older (living according to others’ beliefs doesn’t always make one happy), but only pushed so far, and am only willing and able to push so far.
“It seems that you can control your LE to a manageable degree”
Debateable. I’m quite stoic. So it is true in the sense of the impression of myself I give the world IRL (I might seem stressed at times, but not in turmoil, but I will seem high at other times. Of course a lot of that is connected to the LE, but people IRL dont understand that – I will just look like a typical person whose moods go up and down).
Internally, I am much less in control of it. It hijacks my thoughts an unholy amount of the time and affects my interest in doing things I’d normally be interested in – there is much less brain space. I do push back against this and try and distract myself, but need a lot of time to process and ruminate. I feel this is time wasted. You might contend not, I don’t know. What I was trying to explain before was that insight I have got from reading your perspective (even when not directed to me) had caused me to be kinder and more understanding with myself about this sort of stuff – to be able to ‘sit with’ it better. And that’s what I need.
What are those “constant internal battles” about?
My mind going to my LO/limerence when it could be with my SO, work, or any number of more productive leisure pursuits. My subsconscious mind doing that despite my conscious mind telling me not to. It’s that thing you wrote to Anna – the harder the conscious pushes, the harder the subconscious pushes back. That’s the internal battle. The fact I have to fight this battle after most of my previous years in my long-term monogamous relationship had been happily free from such a battle – I would like that state of mind back.
“Nothing there”… where?
‘There’ just meant – ‘in what I have written in this post to describe my LE situation’.
“In your opinion what could possibly “make anyone an inherently bad person”?”
I’d have a wider answer about being inherently bad in life in general (like committing crimes that harm others for one’s own gain). But re the context of the post, yes I meant moral stuff. Cheating and deception when in a monogamous commitment for example. But on a technicality, my original wording falls down. These things don’t make people ‘inherently’ bad. This is not my situation, but if someone was in an (unambiguously) abusive relationship, then if they cheated on the person, the cheating wouldn’t make them inherently bad. So perhaps forget the word ‘inherently’ here for now, as that becomes a whole other discussion!
“Do you or can you have any polycule tendency, if it were allowed in your circumstance?”
Incredibly big and difficult question. ‘No’ would be the TLDR answer but I will explore the nuances. I don’t understand polycules or polyamory very well. My limited understanding comes from bits I’ve read on LwL. One thing I took from that is that poly relationships are usually something that are negotiated at the beginning – everyone has an idea of the arrangement they are entering, from where it can be re-negotiated. And that’s a very different thing from “I’m limerent for someone else, therefore SO do you mind if we integrate that person into a polycule?!”. That, to me, seems like making up a story to rationalise the limerence and would be incredibly unfair on the SO to ask it (in my case anyway). Just my opinions. Respect if anyone here has navigated that successfully and I’d love to hear their story if they have!
If you could take all morality out of the picture, and I could just think “This could be a way to have a relationship with my LO while still having one with my SO” then sure, I’d think about it. But I can’t take morality out of my mental picture – that scenario is hypothetical blue-sky thinking. I wouldn’t ever be able to live with being that (imo) immoral, whether it was over the table as a polycule or under the table as a PA.
I couldn’t imagine doing that in real life to my SO in a million years. I made a commitment to monogamy with her at the start and wouldn’t want to move goalposts. I very much doubt my LO would entertain it either, in the circumstances. Both have cultural morals not unlike mine. I think monogamy is too strongly instilled in me for that to ever change.
So the internal battle really is that I need to pick one or the other and run with it. I have had many strong cues that my LE is mutual, but collective wisdom on this site tells me people often get this wrong (Speedwagon’s story with his long-term LO has been especially influential on me, but this site is littered with stories of limerent’s who got their LO’s feelings wrong). So for me it isn’t just a choice between SO or LO, it is a choice between those two options and potentially being on my own, with neither of them. If, hypothetically, I left my SO to throw my lot in with my LO, LO may not even want that. I could end up friends with neither too. Without disclosure I can’t find out. Disclosure is a total banana skin. And I have many good reasons for staying with my SO too.
So I have made my choice in my head really. The internal battle is that the unconscious keeps pushing against the choice my conscious has made. The fact I can’t be NC slows the speed at which I can hope to get my unconscious to catch up. So there is a lot of “sitting with it” to be done. Your perspective on it helps me do that.
I hope this all helps you understand the answers to your questions.
“Yes, it’s an extended “Venus and Mars” analogy — I am from Mars, Sammy Jupiter. I have one of my two wings, he one of his four feet soaring over Venus from time to time… 😆 ( 📣 but where is the 🐉 tail? )”
Tongue-in-cheek, but you’ve said don’t try and speak for others … only Sammy could tell you where his tail is 🙂
Hi LaR,
“Quick clarification here that ‘lone wolf’ is a colloquialism – the word choice ‘wolf’ wasn’t for any other reason.”
I know the colloquialism; but my mind is very graphical, and could hardly see I road on a plain or mountain like “lone wolf” — a kind of sad. I like mythalogical creatures or deities, particularly Greek ones, that are full of meanings and figuratively equate our various psychological states.
The more “authentic” image of 🐦🔥 shows on my ipad (not on my iphone at all), my emails and notes. But the emoji of “phoenix” in LwL turns out a red bird dragging fire, a “black bird/crow” a penguin, a bit disappointing!
“living according to others’ beliefs doesn’t always make one happy”,
I have never heard anything who thinks living according to others beliefs or officially/culturally assigned ideologies/religions could make one happy, not even often, let alone “always”. They make social interactions, live and work together possible with minimum conflicts or “wars”, (humans are intrinsically selfish.) If possible, most people want no rules for his/her own needs or desires.
“It seems that you can control your LE to a manageable degree” Debateable. I’m quite stoic. “
Ah, I think you’re mixing “stoic” with “Stoic”, like Sammy did once before. The former (with small “s”) is just one’s superficial appearance/attitude, the latter (w/ capital “S”) is related to the philosophy, “Stoicism”. I’m 50% “Stoic”, rarely “stoic”.
Let me briefly explain why I claim I am 50% Stoic, and 50% Buddhistic. In my simple understandings of the two branches —
Stoic:
1. Everything without is out of one’s control, one CAN control one’s inside, one’s mind, one’s reactions towards external actions/natural events of others and the world. Stoics practice to fight and control unwanted emotions internally and show indifference externally (with courtesy, equilibrium, and grace) to all people and matters.
2. Prepare for the worst while trying one’s best for virtuous endeavors one engages in. Expected negative outcomes will not disappoint or devastate our mind and spirit… unexpected “lucks” will serve us as positive bonus.
Buddhistic:
1. one can NOT control everything within, namely, 7 emotions and 6 desires — joy, anger, sorrow, pleasure, love, hate, and desire (desire for life, desire against death, and the desires of human organs such as ears, eyes, mouth and nose for sound, color, taste and aroma). They are born and will die with us (except few monks/nuns?). Secularly Buddhists practice to reduce or rid of those emotions by peacefully acknowledging, patiently observing (meditating, non-resisting) them until they run off their own course.
2. A Motto-“Relax, nothing is under control”. Everything is impermanent, make your best efforts to relax and enjoy what you have now (they may disappear tomorrow!). Generously give compassion to others and yourself, and you’ll be rewarded with good Karma…. One learns ONLY through making and correcting mistakes….
As a typical limerent with anxious attachment style (based Tennov’s and Dr L’s definition), I am 120% positive that I can never be 100% Stoic or 100% Buddhistic, thus roughly 50-50, leaning on Stoic side (being buddhistic sometimes is too passive… I tend to be restless in body and mind.). LwL has been a challenging, triggering place to practice, in my quirky fashion, these philosophical tools, in addition to dealing with several unexpected in reality….
“that insight I have got from reading your perspective (even when not directed to me) had caused me to be kinder and more understanding with myself about this sort of stuff – to be able to ‘sit with’ it better. And that’s what I need.”
Yes, please continue your practice on this, which would reduce your internal battles and improve your mental states.
“It’s that thing you wrote to Anna – the harder the conscious pushes, the harder the subconscious pushes back. That’s the internal battle. The fact I have to fight this battle after most of my previous years in my long-term monogamous relationship had been happily free from such a battle – I would like that state of mind back.”
Everything is impermanent and in flux, I personally don’t think one could go back to any state of our past (particularly after a limerence), because we, through accumulations of experiences with their respective joys and pains, have changed. People who have been interacting with us also evolved, even if invisible on a daily basis. Could Eve and Adam fall back to Eden? Having your kind of expectation (IMO) is unrealistic and would bring you only disappointments.
“But on a technicality, my original wording falls down. These things don’t make people ‘inherently’ bad.… So perhaps forget the word ‘inherently’ here for now, as that becomes a whole other discussion!”
Yes. Besides our biological stuff such as DNA or blood cells, I’d never use word “inherent” on anyone’s characteristics, which are dominantly neutered and developed through cultural conditioning — morality is just one of them.
“I don’t understand polycules or polyamory very well. My limited understanding comes from bits I’ve read on LwL.”
I did not understand polycules dynamics AT ALL before I came to LwL (through which I learned so much about it) “Polycule tendencies” in my question means whether one is able to be in love, psychologically and physically, with multiple people simultaneously. (Let’s leave morality outside the picture)
I know I cannot. I mentioned before that my brain could only hold one LO at a time. I even felt guilty and cheating for having fwb with xLO5 during my LE7, while there was nothing in reality between xLO7 and me. I didn’t feel “cheating” xLO but my own LE affection/emotion for xLO! I felt I had betrayed my own heart/mind, which I highly dislike. In the past, I even had a hard time to date several guys at the same time, almost always one at time. One or two dates, I could decide whether to continue, so no waste of time.
“If you could take all morality out of the picture, and I could just think “This could be a way to have a relationship with my LO while still having one with my SO” then sure, I’d think about it. “
I was asking whether you could love your LO and SO in the same degree at the same time; if you can, then it’s a polycule tendency/ability. Now, I have another non-requited question: “after you wake up in the morning and before you fall in sleep at night, who first enters your head and last leaves your mind?” — no need to answer, but think about it by yourself….
“I think monogamy is too strongly instilled in me for that to ever change.”
It is your logical morality talking now; I was considering about subconsciousness of your mind. So do you think that nurture can and does conquer nature? Then why LE strike to many happily married limerents, like DrL himself?
“I have had many strong cues that my LE is mutual, but collective wisdom on this site tells me people often get this wrong”
The same here. LwL changed my previous mentality about my unrequited LE, although I was asked “whether it has reached a point to tip over into a mutual EA?” I strongly thought so with all xLO’s oral and written words I have, but it was/is impossible to confirm/conclude it, even with an in-person disclosure. DrL is absolutely correct that there is NO way to a total closure, except in limerent’s own head.
“So I have made my choice in my head really. The internal battle is that the unconscious keeps pushing against the choice my conscious has made. The fact I can’t be NC slows the speed at which I can hope to get my unconscious to catch up. So there is a lot of “sitting with it” to be done. Your perspective on it helps me do that.
Yes, I get where you’re now, but may not be able to deeply feel your internal battles, since I did not have a SO in any of my LEs. Again, I encourage you to resist beating your head with NC, morality, logic, etc. but just sit/meditate with it, telling yourself that it’s okay and not immoral to have this LE, just like everyone here, including DrL; it’s in your head, not in reality…. Otherwise, you’d remain in LE limbo suffering. Perhaps take a look at Buddhistic views on matters in general?
Thank you for making me think and review my own current mindset…
********
“ (📣 but where is the 🐉 tail? )”
“Tongue-in-cheek, but you’ve said don’t try and speak for others … only Sammy could tell you where his tail is”
I did finish my previous post with a question❓ I don’t think I spoke for Sammy at all in the post, but from my perspective speculated (IMO) one of many communication dynamics in the ghost-land, using the Planet analogy:
Venus (Aphrodite) — femininity
Mars (Ares) — masculinity;
Jupiter (Zeus) — multi-identities that is fond of gorgeous male cup bearers.
Again tongue-in-cheek: 👻
If it is not his “Schoolies Week”, I wonder where the 🐉 tail is hidden, maybe held down by his pet cat as a toy ❓while he is painstakingly “cough… cough…” polishing the majestic, verbal-sword & shield in his reclining chair “cough… cough…”, to prepare for that “inappropriate” 🐦🔥 possible attempts to spin the 🐲 tail out of his moralistically comfortable Jupiter?
Snow,
Thank you for this long response – all very thought provoking. Work is weighing heavy this week and I only have time to reply to a couple of bits for now.
Re the ‘polycule’ question, I misunderstood you originally but understand now. I thought you were asking whether I could or would form a polycule in reality (to which the answer would be a firm no on all the grounds I explained earlier). Actually you were asking if its possible for me to love two people (an SO and an LO) at the same time. Yes. Or at least yes it is possible for my brain to convince me of it! I don’t think it is likely (even possible) to have two ‘active’ LOs at the same time – nobody here has ever really said they are in limerence for two people at once that I’ve seen. But love for both an SO and an LO – yes, possible, though it creates huge internal moral conflict. “First thing in the morning, last thing at night …” – many posters are public on here about that, and I suspect you know my answer without me having to say it!
Maybe I do mean Stoic with a capital S from what you said – the confusion wasn’t deliberate, its not a difference I had looked into. I mean – I have quite a high threshold for seeming OK to the rest of the world, while dealing with a lot of turbulence inside. I can hold this state for quite a long time period, but I do have my breaking points like anyone.
Hope the week is treating you kindly.
Hi LaR,
Your post has made me realize that my previous post might be somewhat unclear/inaccurate to what I truly meant to say, and it span my head a bit earlier on how I would practice better what I have jabbered manically.
“I don’t think it is likely (even possible) to have two ‘active’ LOs at the same time – nobody here has ever really said they are in limerence for two people at once that I’ve seen.”
Yeh. It seems so. Maybe some invisible passing readers are holding their multiple LO/LE stories.
“But love for both an SO and an LO – yes, possible, though it creates huge internal moral conflict.”
Someone commented before that with LO it is “in love/lust”, and with SO “in deep love/affections”. So what I meant “love” two or more people at the same time (leaving out those polycule “professional rules”) probably meant: can you (or anyone) be “in love” with LO and SO at the same time? If it’s “love” for both as you claim, are there differences in intensity or styles/aspects of affections in your head?
Bewitched claims to have a nearly perfect SO and a LO of 5 years, perhaps she could distinguish the two affections more clearly? @Bewtiched, I’m not pulling you to the spot light… just my curiosity wondering 🤔
“First thing in the morning, last thing at night …” – many posters are public on here about that, and I suspect you know my answer without me having to say it!”
Either I scanned posts too fast or too selective, or I need to improve my English reading comprehension: I do NOT know what’s the “voting result” of posters on this issue. 🧐 Can you brief me on this?
I meant to ask who is in coupled limerents’ mind first or more, during a few seconds when we are half awake with only bits of consciousness floating in the morning, and are too drowsy to locate our nose at night, LO or SO, or both swinging side by side? (One needs to closely observe this for at least 1 month to see a percentage of tendency, not just one morning or night.)
My psychotherapist gf told me it is how and when to check one’s subconscious wish/care/concern, whilelogical, rational mind is at its most relaxed state but not totally slumbered yet. I applied it in the past for making a critical decision, it worked. Nowadays, I habitually watch those seconds of semi-consciousness especially in the morning, in addition to my remembered dreams, to 👁️ what states I am at, in terms of my LE and other realistic concerns.
“I mean – I have quite a high threshold for seeming OK to the rest of the world, while dealing with a lot of turbulence inside. I can hold this state for quite a long time period, but I do have my breaking points like anyone.”
This statement sounds to me (might be very wrong) that you appear/look like, to the external world, “stoic”, but not “Stoic” in your internal world; you’re “living in/for others’ eyes/lens”, but not yet for your inner wellbeing. If truly Stoic, those “turbulence inside” (caused by reactions to internal or external worlds) would NOT be agitatedly bubbling but quietly “sitting” inside your mind.
A hypothetical scenario here: I suddenly attacked your posts out of blue (in your eyes) and made you feel every upset/angry. There are several ways to react to this:
1. Counterattack or argue to defend your hurt ego/pride. — Neither stoic nor Stoic.
2. Remain a gentlemen/courteous, go silence, or even apologize superficially to make yourself look cool in others eyes — stoic. (inside still feeling wronged or resented).
3. Think/check throughly whether or where my bullets have their possibly reasonable origins, from my perspective; or how in someways your posts might have indeed triggered my past (un)known pains. — Stoic.
4. If having no plausible answers to the #3 (I do not or cannot tell you clear underline truths/issues) , then deduce perhaps I was just in a painful mental stress or actual physical pains at the time of firing (at irritating components in your posts that are not really responsible for my psychological state.) — Stoic
5. Your internal resentment or hurt is gone after some reasoning or meditating, you’re at peace — INDIFFERENCE internally, without carrying out any reactive behavior towards me but feel empathy and sympathy for me, whether expressing it to me or not openly — Stoic.
I don’t know whether I’ve explained differences between being stoic and Stoic more clearly; and I don’t know how to be more Stoic in LE in your case; however, I think that as long as you have this “huge internal moral conflict”/ turbulence inside”, you’re not Stoic yet, although you may appear quite stoic or OK externally in your reality.
I’m trying hard daily to apply a combined Stoic+Buddhistic way to deal with my lingering LE states and some reality issues, which seemed to have caused me to go manic…
Hope your workload eases, have a nice weekend!
Thought interesting to mention:
I just checked a constant update of an xLO (#6.5) and feel absolutely INDIFFERENCE— zero ounce of negative or positive emotions! 🤔
He was a bi-sexual colleague (divorced a woman and was dating a guy at the time) from the job prior to my last job. It was unrequited, non-disclosed, and lasted about 4-5 months(?) But I think he sensed/guessed my “LE” that was not originated from a first-sight glimmer, but after 6-9 months into the job, (after I had a weird dream about him?)
We “flirted”/chatted on text a great deal, but shared little in common particular in liberal art subjects; I don’t remember I felt sexually attracted to him (very tall, athletic, younger than me). He invited me to dine (a good cook) with him and his boyfriend on Christmas, and we went to a local rock concert together. He also dog-sat (he had a dog, too) for me when I was away for 3 day Vipassana meditation retreat. My “LE” went away quietly without me struggling with it at all. I think I never felt he was my romantic type enough, plus he’s with a handsome, feminine-looking young man!
Now, in the social media his photos/video clips looked more and more macho, thus unappealing. I used to send him online birthday greetings but stoped a long while ago…
LE will go away soon or later, depending on the “size” of LE. Once it’s gone, no Olympian God/goddess could ever rekindle it in my life… I rarely look back or regret…
Yesterday is a dream, tomorrow may never come, we only have today for sure… So I do not wait for tomorrow to ramble what I feel like mumble now… 😊
If it comes (already here a bit at 2am), “tomorrow is another day!”
Hi Snow & LaR,
“Bewitched claims to have a nearly perfect SO and a LO of 5 years, perhaps she could distinguish the two affections more clearly? @Bewtiched, I’m not pulling you to the spot light… just my curiosity wondering 🤔”
I wonder the same thing myself, Snow. Its a mystery to me. I would say that I ‘love’ my SO. I am not sure what I feel about my LO. Its got some love elements but people define love so broadly that it does depend on the definition (I know there are 9? different types of love from ancient Greece, but I haven’t the patience to analyse it on those measures ;D).
So, as I said, I am very sure of my feelings towards my SO, less sure about my feelings towards my LO which see-saw between two things. One the one hand, he is the person I self-sooth with first thing in the morning – but I do not think that signifies much except to show that this is the person occupying my mind. (The same could be true if I was having conflict with someone, I could be ruminating on that first/last thing?). The thoughts themselves can either be romantic in the “taking care” of him-type fantasy or more lustful. So both of those expressions of ‘love’ are there when I think of him. Sometimes, he has frustrated me so I have been on a roller-coaster of resentment /euphoria when it came to him. Very much the types of feeling one associated with being ‘in love’, although by many measures (trust, security, etc) these are not great metrics for it.
Roller-coaster feelings seem to be in the rear-view mirror these days as I have been thinking less about him, in general, though he is still there first thing in the morning / last thing at night. Right now, I feel as though I want to take care of him in my fantasies, but that’s not realistically what I want to happen or anything. Not to mention that this is quite a patronising thought to have – and assumes that he would want that! I do not think that LO is a better partner for me than my SO. He is not as compatible with me. Its just a fantasy part of my brain. The executive part of my brain has always had the upper-hand, apart from a few crazy weeks at the height of my LE.
My love for my SO is there everyday. Its not combustible at all. It is romantic in the sense that we share a lot of humour and are always doing kindnesses for each other and we are happy.
To answer your question it seems as though I love my SO and I *just* fantasise about my LO?
@Bewitched,
Thank you for your genuine response to my curiosity. I understand your current quiet “struggle” much better now through your captured feelings and thoughts. I think (I followed your other posts as well) it’s wise not to fight so hard within, to resist rumination and intrusiveness of LO/LE or morality’s pounding (like in LaR), but simply watch them come and go, in and out of our mind. Without being fed and fueled with aimed resistance, they will “get bored” and leave us eventually.
Your thoughtful answers also makes my head spin to “overthink” (My OCD is really bad nowadays) about our shared human psychology.
“I know there are 9? different types of love from ancient Greece, but I haven’t the patience to analyse it on those measures”
I think 8 Greek terms could summarize our shared human affections:
Eros (sexual passion)
Philia (deep friendship)
Ludus (playful love)
Agape (love for everyone)
Pragma (longstanding love)
Philautia (love of the self)
Storge (family love)
Mania (obsessive love)
Since other types of emotions and conflicts are also going on in our heads, particular after LE has struck, I’d like to explore them, through a lens of Greek mythology, which I think is so ingeniously corresponded (mapped out?) to human mental/emotional states.
I assume that you all know the origins of Greek mythology; here are those mythological deities’ powers (put here just for a quick review ) —
1. Zeus: the King of gods, the sky and thunder god, watches all the gods and humans, fears Hera but still cheats on her by amorously ravishing beautiful maidens and mentally fondle his gorgeous cup bearers.
2. Hera: the Queen of the gods, the brown-eyed goddess of marriage, family, childbirth, women, and scary vindictiveness, with her hundreds of vigilant eyes on peacock’s feather, spying on Zeus, hates Aphrodite.
3. Athena: the gray-eyed goddess of wisdom, war, and the crafts, an enemy of Hera and Aphrodite.
4. Aphrodite: the aunt of Zeus, the goddess of love, passion, desire, pleasure, beauty, procreation, and the fertility of the human body. She whispers to human’s ear at night or shoots infectious, lustful arrows to random heart in daylight.
5. Ares: the greatest lover of Aphrodite, the unpopular god of war, provocative and impulsive in nature.
6. Apollo: the god of light, the sun, music, arts, poetry, medicine, prophecy, philosophy, truth and inspiration.
7. Artemis: the goddess of the jungle, hunting, archery, purity and virginity, childbirth, protection, plagues, and the moon.
8. Hermes: the god of trade, wealth, luck, fertility, animal husbandry, language, thieves, and travel, the cleverest and most mischievous god.
9. Dionysus: the god of wine, vegetation, pleasure, festivity, madness and wild frenzy.
10. Eros/Eris: the sister of Ares, the daughter of Night and the goddess of jealousy, always causing divisions, squabbles and quarrels.
11. Hestia: the goddess of family, home and hearth, the eternal flame that would keep the family’s home warm.
12. Hephaestus: Aphrodite’s husband, the ugliest Olympian God, master of construction and metallurgy, an inventive and capable craftsman.
In Mount Olympus: the gods and goddesses never quite get along, and some times argue/fight with each other for power, vanity and glory through manipulating humans down below. No god/dess can be killed, no god/dess can undo another god/dess’s work, but possibly undermine/balance them out with his/her unique crafts or tricks. Zeus tries to be fair and watchful all gods’ behaviors; he mediates conflicts and clashes of the gods.
There are other big/small gods and goddesses, but not as relevant for our imagination here. I think they vividly represent our human mental states. They coexist, get along temporarily, and argue/fight with each other a lot of times. In different human mind, gods/goddesses’s power vary, e.g. Dionysus is stronger in Adam than in me 😊 — Adam, I’m pulling your legs! (Well, at least you have two legs to pull… some have only short feet and a long tail… 🐲)
In the last Olympian’s gathering for a mortal, Peleus’ wedding, Aphrodite argued again with Zeus about who is the most powerful. Aphrodite said something like, “you can thunder the whole mortal sky but I can storm inside each human’s head and cast great wars on earth (— the Trojan War)… “ Zeus dropped his head and vented a deep sigh.
I really believe that Limerence is brought by vain Aphrodite blindly or for reasons, while at the same time other god/dess are working hard to maintain our mental homeostasis. Some have stronger Zeus, Hera (w/ SO) and Hestia, some Aphrodite, Artemes, Apollo, Athena, Hermes, Eros/Eris, or Ares (like me). Then, intensity and scope of LE would be affected by strengthes of those gods and goddesses inside our head.
Bewitched, I hope this simplified nalogy could help explain our complex mind in or out of LE. We could watch in equilibrium or even analyze our mental states with a mythological amaze: perhaps we say: “last night my Aphrodite disturbed my slumber again”… or “she again occupied my first/last moment of the day over my Hera, but my Zeus is in tight control of my behaviors…” or “my Athena is walking along my sides”… or “my Hera is devoting my steady affection to my SO, but that wanton Aphrodite is giving my fantasy to LO”… or, “my Apollo is attending my LE wounds with his lyre…”, or “last week, her Hermes and Dionysus numbed snowphoenix’s mournful wings”…. Have fun with a wild, vivid imagination with those colorful gods and goddesses!
Let’s remember, there is no right or wrong gods or goddess in Olympus — our head; they would never disappear until we die. Luckily, one god/dess’ work can be undermined/balanced out by others divine crafts or tricks. So let’s mobilize each individual deity’s power or combine them to reduce/balance out Aphrodite’s instinctual power in limerence.
Hi Snow and Bewitched,
Some really interesting thoughts here. To answer the bits you asked me properly needs me to have a leisurely sit in the coffee house with you and a large coffee and preferably a cake.
I’ll just say a couple of bits now while I down an Espresso, but fully intend to pop back for that second visit soon.
The Greek love Gods info is fascinating and I might try and use some of it to answer more clearly. To the question of types of love and how it is possible to hold love for an SO at once – the quickish answer is that it is longstanding and safe/secure love (SO) versus the promise of new, exciting love (LO). To complicate matters more, LO is a longstanding friend, so there is a pre existing mutual but platonic love there. The LE arose on top of that, but it doesn’t mean that wasn’t or isn’t there. I hesitate to use the word love about LO because ‘limerence’ fits better, though I know it was me that said before that my brain can convince me I love both people. I think I can finesse my answer by absorbing and applying some of the Greek Gods stuff eventually.
“First thing / last thing” – everyone on here who has declared seems to say it is their LO. I believe that’s the case for me too. Your tip to try and ‘watch’ it for a month and see if it ebbs and flows is good and I will try it. LO is in my dreams quite a lot too. They are always overall pleasant dreams but stop at a certain point – she is never obtainable, but doesn’t become unpleasant, which mirrors the reality. I think this is my mind processing it all gently – the dreams aren’t unpleasant.
Re the inner conflict or turmoil I’ve reported – I doubt I am much different to many married/ attached limerents whose feelings stray off towards someone else in feeling the moral conflict – I just perhaps have put it out there more. LiS used to talk about it quite a lot. I believe the feeling will be pretty common due to our Western cultural norms. I am pretty sure Bewitched has reported feeling it before.
Bewitched thanks for swinging by for coffee with us and chipping in with your thoughts.
TBC at some point! Hope you have good days.
Hi Snow,
Hope your ☕️ is now topped up!
“simply watch them [intrusive thoughts, rumination, moralising etc] come and go, in and out of our mind. Without being fed and fueled with aimed resistance, they will “get bored” and leave us eventually”
I’m trying to understand this point better in light of your Buddhist and Stoic combo approach. I oversimplify now, but in easy form I think Buddhism would say “let it be, sit gently with it” while Stoicism would say “reason it out sensibly with consideration to self and others”. These positions can seem incompatible at first as they need opposite brain orientations.
How do you make both work together? I ask this out of genuine curiousity. Do you have to in effect set aside times to let each side have its turn, or does it happen more naturally than that?
On the ‘no resist’ –> ‘no persist’ point, it wasn’t something I really thought about until I saw a video that Lovisa frequently links to here on ‘How to deal with intrusive thoughts’ by Mark Freeman. It is the same principle as you advocate for – in simple ‘accept intrusive thoughts’ because if you do the opposite and try and get rid of them, you in effect play a sport with brain where it thinks “he/she enjoyed that ‘get rid’ game, so I know, I’ll supply some more intrusive thoughts to prolong the game”. Seems obvious now, but didn’t – a genuine learning.
I think probably the Stoic+Buddhist approach might help with acceptance if one can understand and apply it properly.
A hard part when limerent plus with an SO is that there isn’t always the time to sit with and ‘welcome’ or process thoughts of LE/LO. They are like an unwelcome guest at mine and SO’s dinner table. This makes it harder to practise acceptance.
@LaR,
Just woke up after a sound sleep, while naughty Aphrodite was still with Ares in bed, so no LO/LE intrusion under my eyelids at sight of Helios… Demeter is gone, too… Have to wait another half an hour for my regular cup of expresso.
“I’m trying to understand this point better in light of your Buddhist and Stoic combo approach. “
I don’t use Stoic and Buddhistic approach at the same time, but in different aspects. They are conflicting in dealing with one’s internal uncontrollable (but same in handling external ones), as you mentioned later in this post.
“I oversimplify now, but in easy form I think Buddhism would say “let it be, sit gently with it” while Stoicism would say “reason it out sensibly with consideration to self and others”. These positions can seem incompatible at first as they need opposite brain orientations.”
You precisely capture a difference between two philosophical tools here. Buddhism says it’s all natural/inevitable to have unwanted emotions and reactions, but if you (collective) just watch them — the essences of all mindful meditations, they will weaken on their own, leave or die out. But this takes time, and those unwanted thoughts repeat their “attacks” like in Mark Freeman’s sportsmen analogy. So Buddhistic approach requires one to tame down one’s ego/pride to win, but “humbly” and passively “sit”, not necessarily physically sitting down for eye-closing meditation, which does help if one can afford time. (I did two 20 min. sessions yesterday, because my body was literally “agitated” by some uncontrollable, intrusive thoughts — body-mind connection, I’m very psychosomatic)
Stoicism helps one build a mental shield so one doesn’t get annoyed or hurt by those reactive/intrusive emotions or thoughts. As you just said that Stoic thinks our rational mind can actively “reason them out”, but as you have experienced, they may leave you alone for a bit but then come back, even stronger. That’s because your mind has fueled it from its opposite side, Freemen’s analogy is vividly accurate! Advocating or denouncing (moralizing or demoralizing) is two sides of the same coin. Buddhists would say, just passively watch the coin with equilibrium(even amusement) how two sides fencing or dancing in your head, while keeping telling yourself, “It’s natural as we need to eat and drink!”
“How do you make both work together? I ask this out of genuine curiousity. Do you have to in effect set aside times to let each side have its turn, or does it happen more naturally than that?”
Stoic and Buddhism align in terms of defining/distinguishing what are external and internal uncontrollable (my big ego sometimes blurs my judgment on this). The former believes you can control or actively kill internal REACTIONS/intrusions. the latter says reactions/intrusions are also OUT OF YOUR CONTROL, but your Ego (executive mind) can weaken them to the point of not bothering your homeostasis. (Like my example of viewing my LO#6.5 the other night — I was literally “shocked” that I had even known this guy as a LO once upon a time, which proves my sentimentality: life is indeed a dream!)
Nowadays, I use more Buddhistic approach and Greek mythological deities to deal with unwanted emotions and thoughts (that even led me to behave like a mania). I try to identify which gods/goddesses are working together or fighting with each other at a particular moment and tell myself, “you can’t beat up those deities, just accept their power”, then watch the show — distance your cognitive mind from its “pains.”
“I think probably the Stoic+Buddhist approach might help with acceptance if one can understand and apply it properly.”
I think such a formula can work and is working gradually in me; it’s very challenging, because my ego(w/ small “e”) pride sometimes put me “above” those deities. But our Ego (w/ capital “S) — Zeus/conscious mind, usually make our realistic (in)action choices (remember he still sometimes cheats on Hera in action behind her back, although he could somewhat manage other deities, except Aphrodite.)
“A hard part when limerent plus with an SO is that there isn’t always the time to sit with and ‘welcome’ or process thoughts of LE/LO.”
After practicing your combo tool for a while, your mind would build up a new habit in handling unwanted/unwelcome thoughts, thus faster.
“They are like an unwelcome guest at mine and SO’s dinner table. This makes it harder to practise acceptance.”
Never underestimate the potion of Aphrodite once in our system, it can grow or die like a cancer depending on whether one feeds it or starves it. She’s the vainest goddess who never gets enough praises or attention; so she’ll show up at any given moment to compete with Athena or Hera. So if she shows up at your dinner table or even in bed with your SO, your Ego just acknowledges it gently, “Ah, Aphrodite is here again,” while letting your Zeus, Hera, Hestia and Athena calmly and gracefully carry on whatever you’re doing with SO. If your mind is annoyed or agitated, your SO’s Hera may detect/sense your Aphrodite….
I need to get up for my expresso now… have a great day wherever you are (not in the US?)!
****
Opps, Demeter just randomly rushed by, making my eyes 😢…. she does this often these days, my Zeus needs to “sit” more to hear her griefs, and shred empathetic, compassionate tears for/with her…
This reminds me of religious OCD! Many of us feel like our thoughts are being invaded by demons, but turns out it’s just our brains playing tricks on us. If we ignore the thoughts, supposedly they go away eventually.
@SL,
You’re right that if thoughts are ignored, they’ll soon or later fade away, only LE thoughts seem to be more stubborn than all other types, lasting possibly decades or to one’s death — those extremely romantic folks never lived long in books, anyway! 🤭
A lot of our thoughts and sentiments come from Unconscious, either landed in dreams or mingled/mixed with our conscious mind (without our knowing). They are not all “negatively” “invading”, but also “positively” inspiring. What about artistic, poetic, graphic, and other type of creative inspirations/muses? Do we want to rid of them? Ask any creative mind to pin down where their sudden, “crazy” ideas/thoughts come from, “I don’t know, they just popped into my head!” is often an answer.
I am primarily an atheist (Buddhism is a philosophy for laymen practitioners), and have only bits of ideas about some religions without their specifics. My mind and imagination work better with images with narratives (I cannot draw or paint anything), so mythology seems to be very effective in aiding my understandings of human mind and behaviors. Many mythologies from various cultures all help people comprehend complex, bewildering mind and “invisible” spirits.
Joseph Campbell’s “A Hero With a Thousand Faces” has really taught me a great deal about human mind and spirit around the world.
I think in buddhist’s dictionary for emotions or thoughts, there are few culturally judgmental terms, such as “angels” or “demons”… they are just two sides of a coin, like day and night, depending on if you’re standing in Asia or North America.
Snow,
Thanks for all the analogising about the Greek Gods. While it could sound to some a bit out of leftfield, it offers me a fun way to mess around with my LE in my head, as an alternative to reinforcing inner conflict. Yeah sure, Aphrodite has been giving Zeus the runaround and really testing his resolve and his loyalty to Hera lately. Zeus (Ego) has been strongest on the whole, but he isn’t omnipotent / omniscient, nor immume to odd small lapses of judgement. He’s been in a storm.
I think I can come to understand and accept a few things better with the variety of tools we’ve discussed. This without disownimg that the Ego
(Zeus) can still own and mediate purposeful responses and actions going forward. Much of the time, anyway, as long as he watches the actions of the other gods with a careful interest.
I think, echoing you, that anything that redirects the focus away from the LO (possibly an innocent bystander here, though I know it isn’t always like that), and onto the internal dynamics of an LE, is almost always good.
@LaR,
Gods and mortals have all been entangled in Aphrodite’s erotic nets, so no surprise that Zeus could be “in a storm” after being shot by one of Eros’ (Aphrodite and Ares’ son)blind arrows. Considering It’s just about impossible not to cheat behind Hera, your Zeus’ sense of loyalty (or fear of Hera) is supremely strong! 👏 Enlist all his children or siblings, Hermes, Apollo, Athena, Hestia, Dionysus, Pan, etc. to distract his mind!
“…that redirects the focus away from the LO (possibly an innocent bystander here, though I know it isn’t always like that)..”
I’m a bit confused: are you saying that your LO is possibly a bystander in LwL? What “isn’t always like that…” If she is here, do you semi-consciously wish to be recognized by her, or would rather to “hide” deeper? 🤔
I’ve been habitually practicing my Stoicism in one of my realistic worries: by having assumed and accepted the worst possibility, which made me consequently feel gloomy/depressed (not a 70% of Stoic yet) in the past few days. Today totally surprised, I heard/got the opposite of the expected worst — a bonus of life!
Can you imagine my extra, profound joy!🤩 — Even with a half of the required enrollment, my class will run in a new HE institute, starting next week. My 🩸begins to bubble….
As long as she can stand in front of a classroom, the 🐦🔥 will be able to soar in the edgeless sky…
Two more realistic concerns are still waiting for their fate, I’m still preparing for the worst…
Hi Snow,
I‘m out of here for a while, being on an absolutely stunning holiday in the UK, and also taking a break from here. I still skim posts from time to time and just want to congratulate you quickly on your work situation! Very glad for you!❤️
Snow,
Amazing news about your class finding a new home 😀Something you had been dreading a bad outcome from turned out to have a good one. Good luck soaring with that!
I made my last message potentially confusing by my use of ‘innocent bystander *here*’. I didn’t mean to imply ‘here *at LWL*’. My ‘here’ just meant ‘in my case’. I’ll explain better – I don’t know (and have committed that it is best, for now, not to disclose and find out) if the feelings with LO are at all mutual. The strong alternative is she has just continued to offer me the warm friendship that was there before. If that’s true, she is an ‘innocent bystander here’ – my brain, not her actions, has created the LE (it is easiest for me to progress if I believe this version). ‘Not always the case’ – some LOs are narcs, have malicious intent or enjoy having the limerent on a string. I have XLOs where these traits apply, and many on this site report them of their LOs. My current LO exhibits none of these traits (so is more ‘innocent bystander’ to my brain’s LE project, not ‘active player’ in it – at least in as much as I know).
On the prospect of being identifiable at LwL – that was never what I was adressing in the ‘bystander’ comment. I do, however, worry sometimes that my SO or my LO could end up looking here. I believe I have leaked a fair bit without disclosure, and either of them could end up Googling about the subject and wind up with LwL (LO has also been a knowing LO to someone else). Its probably vain of me to think it, and unlikely. But for that reason I do try to keep identifying information down a bit, so that “LaR” could be one of many. Don’t let that worry you about asking me things, though – I will answer as best as I feel able, or just not answer some bits if I don’t.
I have seen that others here at LwL share this identification worry and handle it in the same way. It is a bit frustrating as there are bits I’d ideally like to give you (collective) more information on for a more complete picture. People who go the other way – with direct identifiers (places, dates, precise contexts where glimmers happened etc) are really brave.
Time for 🫖!
@Mila,
So good to see you and hear about your good time in UK!
I dropped my good news especially for your eyes… THANK you for your consistent care, not just for me, but almost every ghost here…
I’ve been thinking about you and your last “goodbyes” to your MFF, but totally understand your “going away” to relax the tiring body and weary mind.
Stay aloof as long as you wish, and I pray for all good lucks hurdling to your way…
💓🫂
Dear Snow and LaR,
I wanted to chip back in, just to say that I enjoyed your exchange over coffee and cake! The Greek mythology is indeed a fun way of creating a narrative that one can work with. It can be a helpful to make sense of internal struggles, by putting them into the context of ancient stories, but also a great way of avoiding feelings of shame, which are just unhelpful and not relevant to many of us here (I believe).
“it’s wise not to fight so hard within, to resist rumination and intrusiveness of LO/LE or morality’s pounding (like in LaR), but simply watch them come and go, in and out of our mind. Without being fed and fueled with aimed resistance, they will “get bored” and leave us eventually. ”
Yes. Some of the things you said about observing but not trying to control thoughts really helped me in the recent past. But I say this now that I feel I am in recovery so maybe it is easy to say so in my present frame of mind. I had years of intrusive thoughts. Still, I never thought feeling ashamed or conflicted was helpful for me so I never went there, and I think that’s ok, because I was not encouraging my LO at all.
Re:
“First thing / last thing” – everyone on here who has declared seems to say it is their LO. I believe that’s the case for me too. Your tip to try and ‘watch’ it for a month and see if it ebbs and flows is good and I will try it. LO is in my dreams quite a lot too. They are always overall pleasant dreams but stop at a certain point – she is never obtainable, but doesn’t become unpleasant, which mirrors the reality. I think this is my mind processing it all gently – the dreams aren’t unpleasant.”
My LO dreams sound very similar, LaR. Actually, LO in my dreams was not a common occurrence, but the ones I had were pleasant – they were protective, affectionate and sometimes involved clearly communicated longing. I maintain that these were all characteristics of my LE, so my dreams were not too different from what I experienced in reality. Was he limerent I don’t know, but I am pretty positive that he was attracted over a long period. I know that I might be wrong about it and if I am, it doesn’t matter and I do not mind.
“A hard part when limerent plus with an SO is that there isn’t always the time to sit with and ‘welcome’ or process thoughts of LE/LO. They are like an unwelcome guest at mine and SO’s dinner table. This makes it harder to practise acceptance.”
Yes but I believe that it does fade if denied a bit of oxygen. That took me ages but I got there by not shaming myself for my thoughts, not adding fuel to the fire by encouraging contact between us.
Snow – you always said being limerent stoked your creative fires. But now that you are mostly post-limerent (have I got that right?), you seem more creative than ever. This is good, right, as your creativity its very important to you? Also, BIG congratulations on getting your HE classes sorted. Phew – what a relief!
Have a nice evening. Enjoy the imaginative myth-making 😀
Bewitched,
Thanks for stopping off at the caffeine fest again
“they [LE dreams] were protective, affectionate and sometimes involved clearly communicated longing. I maintain that these were all characteristics of my LE, so my dreams were not too different from what I experienced in reality.”
So many similarities. Mine never end in ‘complete unreality’ (eg we don’t consummate though it occasionaly gets close), but I feel lile they let some bits of the LE play out that IRL are forbidden, eg being open about feelings.
“I know that I might be wrong about it and if I am, it doesn’t matter and I do not mind.”
That position of casual indifference is a great one to get to and to aspire to. I am really pleased you’ve achieved it. It says a lot for the strategy you took.
“I got there by not shaming myself for my thoughts, not adding fuel to the fire by encouraging contact between us”
👍 thanks so much for sharing.
@Bewitched,
“Snow – you always said being limerent stoked your creative fires. But now that you are mostly post-limerent (have I got that right?), you seem more creative than ever. “
Thank you for flattering me for being “creative” 🫂. I think/know it’s just a mania’s one phenomenon, It’s a mechanism to distract one from longing, sadness, grief, depression or despair (—Demeter, older than Mount Olympus itself).
Only if one’s mind succeeds a tiny bit in escaping into a “forced” creativity, the creativity would then somehow awaken or stimulate one’s genuine creativity. Everyone has muse(s), who are often unrecognized or unfed enough of nutrition.) Once awaken, a muse plucks her own strings, spinning one’s head round and round… Once stopped, one’s inner system may crash again — Rubin Williams’ brilliant humors did not save himself 🥺
As a result, Demeter would be pushed to walk away into a dark valley, which is against Buddhism principle — sitting and watching all emotions until they get enough their deserved attention and then peacefully leave one. To trick/push away unwanted emotions is a temporary solution, they will come back again — I sometimes giggled at my own jokes head off, then in next minute, some tears suddenly welled up in the eyes… Nowadays I knew which fleeting thought(s) brought them in.
Am I in post-limerence? I am unable to answer this question and would like to ask DrL. As you know I was forced out of the limerence’s physical door and saw only gray sky everywhere since last August — I did not believe that anything new under the sun could ever ease or remove my LE disenfranchised grief — trying to be a LO’s good, “painless” friend is a self-delusional JOKE, although I finally become authentic, which tremendously helped ease my cptsd in COO.
After the trip to COO with its unexpected traumas-healing effects and that horrifying spa dream, I realized that my “mysterious” LONGING, which had followed almost all my life, had GONE! DrL’s interview with Amanda made me realize that I was only a little bit in limerence with a specific LO (an innocent bystander or not), but much more addicted to LONGING itself, because it’s “a comforting distraction and a catalyst for creativity.” (—DrL). The worse, such a longing is an agony, but was mistaken (definitely by me) for love (from the Guardian’s article you gave the link).
The addiction to LONGING in my case was originated and developed from my terrible longing for my parents’ missing physical presence and emotional/mental attention, but rarely received them during my entire childhood and early youth. Meanwhile, my imagined Phantom (a mental creativity) was born and grew up with me.
Later all my romantic relationships automatically began with an intense longing (not necessarily LE since almost all my crushes/infatuations were reciprocated either with PA or EA within a couple of months, there were a couple of unrequited ones). The more intense I longed from them, the more “love” I thought I had for them. But once the longing was reciprocated, my LE died quickly, which caused a huge confusion.
Now for the first time in my life, I don’t feel any longing for anything or anyone, particularly that phantom parental figure (recently tested: Mom’s presence no longer triggers my irrational irritations). xLO is still in and out of my head less than 3 months of departing, but is not the first/last image under my eyelids, nor causing much emotions on either side of the coin (I tend to and want to remember bright sides of xLOs; otherwise a regret might gnaw me to internal death). However, tears still welled up occasionally in front of the “loss”. I actually WANT more tears; otherwise, the grief will be stuck inside causing other relevant mental dis-ease, eg. Depression.
So I am not sure how to define my LE, still mentally sin or out ❓I’m not steadily calm, but no longer have the aged LONGING, nor fear of any others’ eyes/lens…. I CANNOT believe it! 😳🙊 I even feel genuinely comfortable to mock my own LE without putting down xLO or my own Phantom (Apollo is needed at any given time)! LE is just such a bizarre, bewitching, bewildering state of the mind! I remember that hilarious youtube clip on Ron’s limerence in Harry Potter — it is not an exaggeration compared to my LE, regardless whether LO is a white knight or a Sensor.
“This is good, right, as your creativity its very important to you? “
Yes, very much so. If I didn’t learn something “new” (even just a couple of new English words) or find unfitting ways to say “I’m sad”, or “I’m bored”, or “I’m in pain”, etc. then I felt my time/life was totally wasted in that day.
I sometimes pictures LwL as a Shakespearean stage with hundreds ghosts audience watching silently… then I’d seriously put on dramatic markup in a stage outfit, get up there to lament 😪 or to jest…🤡 As long as ❄️ 🐦🔥 can monologue her own scripts, life would feel like “glorious” 🏆…
Before Sunday upon hearing the class confirmation, I felt scarily “free”, standing on a crossroad of life — could go anywhere and do anything, but not sure where to go and what to do… so I ran into the dusty, comfy, verbal sanctuary of dead poets and authors (their Apollo and muses), which in return uplifted up the struggling wings 🪽
Jean de La Bruyère said, “Life is a tragedy for those who feel, and a comedy for those who think.” Don’t you think we could flip our coins (LE for one) more often… No?❓
LaR & Bewitched,
I’m just sipping the last few drops of expresso in our beloved “coffee house”.
From my perspective, I see both of your strong Zeus, Hera, Athena, Hestia are working together in balancing (not off yet) the complicated “infection” of Aphrodite’s arrows. My hat to you both!
The aim I bring in Greek deities to the picture is to allow us to see that a Love for SO and a limerence with LO are directed and ruled by different gods/goddesses in our head, which means they (different emotions) can exist simultaneously, hopefully without causing too much of a havoc in our system. (EXPECT that Aphrodite, Athena, Hera, and Eros, etc. are often “at each other’s throat”!)
A long-term monogamy relationship to me means our realistic actions (EA or/and PA) do not “stray off” to unwanted or desired LO direction, but emotional or mental wandering, exploring, or expanding is a default of our human brain! I get a sense (maybe very wrong) that many people, both in the West and East, assume/believe that once you (collective) are paired with a SO, your freely roaming and evolving emotions and thoughts will naturally, settle/shut down, is it ever possible?
Ancient Greeks knew this very well, thus invented those gods and goddesses to help us explain and put up with our complex mental and emotional states that are in perpetual flux. Buddhists see 7 emotions and 6 desires are a default of human existence, so relax more on our often “muddled” mind — “it’s normal/natural, relax!”. Here in the West, heavy morality labels are put on those no-right-or-wrong deities therefore causing those “internal conflict or turmoils” (yes, I remember LiS lamenting…)
According to DrL, the battle with our LE primarily comprises many internal wars in our own mind, be LO a friend or a foe. It’s 24/7 battles among those gods and goddesses – Unconscious never sleeps; one just doesn’t see them clearly while the conscious mind SEEMS to be ruling our waking hours. So I would/still focus on my own LE inflicted mind, not on LO whether they were strangers or friends beforehand.
Based on both of your posts, it’s clear that Aphrodite’s power is the strongest, so an LO rules the first/last moments in almost every limerents’ life, whether with a SO or not, whether living in a Buddhist’ temple or not. So moralizing Her is futile, but using one’s other deities to reduce “damaging” impact of her work is productive. Limerence is not even healthy for singletons, that’s why even Zeus is a bit of afraid of his aunt, Aphrodite!
Let us (whoever wants to join in) grab a large cup of expresso soon…☕️
Incurable
Dorothy Parker
And if my heart be scarred and burned,
The safer, I, for all I learned;
The calmer, I, to see it true
That ways of love are never new—
The love that sets you daft and dazed
Is every love that ever blazed;
The happier, I, to fathom this:
A kiss is every other kiss.
The reckless vow, the lovely name,
When Helen walked, were spoke the same;
The weighted breast, the grinding woe,
When Phaon fled, were ever so.
Oh, it is sure as it is sad
That any lad is every lad,
And what’s a girl, to dare implore
Her dear be hers forevermore?
Though he be tried and he be bold,
And swearing death should he be cold,
He’ll run the path the others went.…
But you, my sweet, are different.
********
Today:
Hermes, Dionysus are in slumber
Aphrodite has taken Ares to her bed
Eros is unconscious stoned by sleeping pills
Hera and Hestia are chitchatting their hair off at the stove;
Athena is titling her head by Apollo’s lulling lyre…
only Demeter is unseasonably spotted
passing by the Zeus’ tent under the moonlight —
wants to be heard of her heartbreaking losses,
needs to break and dry the deep well
of her condensed tears…
🐦🔥
In Mount Olympus today —
Hermes, Dionysus are in slumber
Aphrodite has taken Ares to bed
Eros is stoned by sleeping pills
Athena is dozing off her alert eyes
Hera and Hestia are chatting their hair off at the stove
Artemis is titling her head towards Apollo’s lulling lyre
Hephaestus is refining his Stoic shield
Hades is warming up his chilly final hands
Only Demeter is unseasonably spotted
passing by the Zeus’ tent under the moonlight –
wants to be heard of her grievous loss
needs to break her condensed tears, and
to dry the deepest lamenting well
*****
In limerence —
LO/MFF is running blatantly and blazingly
in every limerent’s reverie eyes
at the sight of Helios’ chariot at Sunrise
at the silhouette of Selene’s chariot at Moonshine
In limerence 🍥 — 😵💫
LO/MFF is dashing blatantly and blazingly ❤️🔥
in every limerent’s reverie eyes 😘
at the sight of Helios’ chariot at Sunrise 😋
at the silhouette of Selene’s chariot in Moonshine 🫠
The Eyes of My Regret
Angelina Weld Grimké
1880 –1958
Always at dusk, the same tearless experience,
The same dragging of feet up the same well-worn path
To the same well-worn rock;
The same crimson or gold dropping away of the sun
The same tints—rose, saffron, violet, lavender, grey
Meeting, mingling, mixing mistily;
Before me the same blue black cedar rising jaggedly to a point;
Over it, the same slow unlidding of twin stars,
Two eyes, unfathomable, soul-searing,
Watching, watching—watching me;
The same two eyes that draw me forth, against my will dusk after dusk;
The same two eyes that keep me sitting late into the night, chin on knees
Keep me there lonely, rigid, tearless, numbly miserable,
—The eyes of my Regret.
****
Whose gaze❓
Love’s Philosophy
Percy Bysshe Shelley
1792 –1822
The fountains mingle with the river
And the rivers with the ocean,
The winds of heaven mix for ever
With a sweet emotion;
Nothing in the world is single,
All things by a law divine
In one another’s being mingle—
Why not I with thine?
See the mountains kiss high heaven,
And the waves clasp one another;
No sister-flower would be forgiven
If it disdain’d its brother;
And the sunlight clasps the earth,
And the moonbeams kiss the sea—
What is all this sweet work worth
If thou kiss not me?
******
O, LO, LO, “wherefore art thou [LO]?” 😂
Hera and Hestia are in silky slumber
Eris is still stoned on her acidic lawn
Hades’ fingers clasped Persephone underground
Demeter’s sighs echoed in valley of somber tears
Aphrodite is rising to Zephyr
Ares polishing his rushing spear
Artemis spinning in her earthen, virgin tones
Hermes tying his mischievous sandals
Dionysus stamping his crashed, bouncing grapes Athena fondling her far sighted owl
Apollo plucking his lyre for his pupil Muses
Zeus is scouting his next wanton transform s
Pan’s exotic, erotic horns
grabbed by Eros’ naughty hand
are honking at Aphrodite’s teasing winks, while
his goaty legs are entwined with
Nymphs of Poseidon’s seas.
Chorus 🎶 :
In Limerence — 🍥
LO is dashing blatantly and blazingly ❤️🔥
in our limerents’ reverie eye 😵💫
at the sight of Helios’ chariot at Sunrise 😍
at the silhouette of Selene in Moonshine 🫠
In a Dawn of Mount Olympus —
Hera and Hestia are in silky slumber
Eris is still stoned on her acidic lawn
Hades’ fingers clasped Persephone underground
Demeter’s sighs echoed in the valley of somber tears
Aphrodite is rising to Zephyr
Ares polishing his rushing spear
Artemis spinning in her earthen, virgin tones
Hermes tying his mischievous sandals
Dionysus stamping his crashed, bouncing grapes
Athena fondling her far sighted owl
Apollo plucking his lyre for his pupil Muses
Zeus is scouting his next wanton transform s
Pan’s exotic, erotic horns
grabbed by Eros’ naughty hand
are honking at Aphrodite’s teasing winks, while
his goaty legs are entwined with
Nymphs of Poseidon’s seas.
Chorus 🎶 :
In Limerence — 🍥
LO is dashing blatantly and blazingly ❤️🔥
in our limerents’ reverie eye 😵💫
at the sight of Helios’ chariot at Sunrise 😍
at the silhouette of Selene in Moonshine 🫠
The “stage” is so quiet… please indulge a 🐦🔥 ’s chirping…
“Our vanity, our passions, our spirit of imitation, our abstract intelligence, our habits have long been at work, and it is the task of art to undo this work of theirs, making us travel back in the direction from which we have come to the depths where what has really existed lies unknown within us.”
– Marcel Proust, Time Regained
Evoke and feed Muses within you, if possible the first thing before getting out of bed. The mental process would make LO recede a bit into distance, then repeat it next Dawn… 😇
The Phoenix
Hafez
translated from the Persian by Ralph Waldo Emerson
My phoenix long ago secured
His nest in sky-vault’s cope;
In the body’s cage immured,
He is weary of life’s hope.
Round and round this heap of ashes
Now flies the bird amain,
But in that odorous niche of heaven
Nestles the bird again.
Once flies he upward, he will perch
On Tuba’s golden bough:
His home is on that fruited arch
Which cools the blest below.
If over this world of ours
His wings my phoenix spread,
How gracious falls on land and sea
The soul-refreshing shade!
Either world inhabits he,
Sees oft below him planets roll;
His body is all of air compact,
Of Allah’s love his soul.
****
A Persian mythological bird 🐦🔥 as well…
“All the world’s a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts, His acts being seven ages.”
WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE
LwL is a stage, and I’m near its exit, marveling, lamenting, and jesting its seven ages… And you, my friends❓🫂
The Friend Departs
Elsa Gidlow
’Tis not alone that you have gone from me:
All the hungry, fragile roots of hope
Are blasted by a Thing I cannot name;
And I am desolate remembering
The rare kiss, the intimate silent climbing
From passion to a breathless comprehension.
Even my peace of heart, born of long pain,
Dies, drowned in a turbulence of passion.
Life today is like a glass reflecting
Nothing more than my own grieving eyes,
Or like a goblet that I sit and stare at,
Empty of all but stains of last night’s wine.
*****
Oh dear: “A thing” is called limerence; everything remembered here occured in a limerent’s head… except the LO’s departure 👋 is as real as your toes… 👣
@Adam
I’m responding your message here.
Have you thought of giving herbal Melatonin a try 30 minutes before your bed time?
I don’t have any troubles falling in sleep anywhere in daytime or evening (thus can’t drive), but sometimes take a tiny dose of herbal Melatonin(1mg) just to sleep deeper or longer, although my meditation could usually help me fall back to sleep easily.
Coincident in timing, name, location, songs, Vedic-clip scenes, etc. often remind us our previous interactions with xLO or something to do with xLO themselves, it’s natural. While that happens to me, I try to remind myself it’s just a coincident, not some kind of Cosmic indications/“magics”. I try to bring my curious eyes to look for novelty and freshness in all new encounters, which brings me a sense of a new “adventure” and wonder.
Last Tues, I took a new good-looking, charming pupil who is freshly graduated from college with incredible enthusiasm, high energy and fast mind (dating a girl from my COO). I was able to put all other cute pupils (coincidentally all good looking, what a luck 🍀 I have 😝) or xLO completely out of mind for the time being and “explored” and enjoyed the novelty this orange-hair dude brought in while he was trying hard to learn from me… 😊 (I’ll be tutoring him on Tues. regularly.)
Have fun to meet your new lady co-worker in person on Friday!
I just want to make one more comment, and then I’ll go away for a while.
Now that I have had 24 hours to mull things over, it now occurs to me that my “coworker” has probably started acting “weird” around me because I have started acting weird around her – duh! It also seems like she is often looking at me when I look her way, but she is likely thinking the same thing of me. It was also lost on me when I posted yesterday that my immediate supervisor, whom I interact with a lot, is also a young, attractive, twenty something young girl, but I never feel weird talking to her, because I have never had any strong attraction to her. This is all starting to make sense to me now, now that I can see how profoundly limerence can cloud common-sense judgment. Ironically, my transgender coworker on my shift can sure get “her” laughing and smiling and talking.
I also have an appointment to set up a tour at the Space Dynamics Laboratory here in town later this afternoon. I will have the opportunity to see some of the production and assembly workspaces that are not open to the general public, and I will also have the opportunity to talk to some of the leads who are responsible for staffing these areas. So yes, I’m looking for a better job as well. Even if I can manage to get hired on here, there is probably another LO waiting just around the corner – you can’t run from limerence, but you can maybe do something else that is fascinating and engaging, and important.
James A,
I suspect you will continue to fall for younger women. Please don’t be a jerk or a creep. Remember this, if she is sending signals that she likes you, she probably just likes you. That is all. Don’t make it weird. Also, when you get cold with a younger woman, she will second guess herself because she sees you as a parental figure. She doesn’t deserve your coldness. If your feelings get too intense and you need to distance yourself, BE BORING. Boring won’t cause her to become insecure and she won’t think you are a creep.
If you can maintain good boundaries, you can have an abundance of attractive female friends. Just don’t be weird or creepy or cold. THEY ARE ONLY OFFERING FRIENDSHIP. If you make a play for one of them, you’ll scare her away. Speedwagon’s situation is the perfect example. He could have continued in his warm relationship with his LO if he hadn’t disclosed, but when he disclosed, he scared and confused her. It’s like having a parental figure flirt with you. It is so confusing! Don’t do it.
I would like a favor. I would like to read James A’s original story on LwL. Will someone link it if you know where to find it? Thanks
Lovisa,
James said that he started posting about 5 years ago. If you’re interested, I recommend that you check out the archives at the bottom and start looking at the blogs from mid-2018 forward. Open each blog and search for James until you hit a blog with his comments. You’ll see his full screen name.
Unfortunately, you can’t search for comments by name.
Using Ctrl-F, scanning a blog for his name only takes a few seconds.
I posted for the first time sometime in June or early July 2019. I’m going to go look too.
That is helpful, thanks!
I checked June and July of 2019. Did you go by James A back then too?
Here is a recent one. I suspect you don’t mind my use of all caps, James A.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/coffeehouse-should-you-write-a-letter-to-lo/#comment-53009
Lovisa, who helped me a lot a while ago. I will never forget.
For Christ’s sake! As much as I have been irritated by the extraordinarily annoying posts of another commenter, whose lengthy contributions can frankly be tedious, narcissistic and less than helpful, I think you should moderate your own language and look at what you are saying.
“Jerk”, “Creep”, “weird”. All these words carry degrees of offence and discomfort. Ditch the capital letters, I’d say.
It’s high time that I appeared here less often, much less often, because of my personal circumstances. It really is time that I called it a day, which is fine. I just need to pull that plug, it’s not so easy.
Despite the above rant, I wish everyone (everyone, including my friends and anyone that I may have offended) the very best in their battles and endeavours.
f
Why not just never click open any posts of the said commenter whose words have annoyed and irritated you so much?
Wish you the best repose and a speedy victory over your battle with your LE!
Sorry Frederico. My bad. Thanks for the feedback.
@frederico.
“It’s high time that I appeared here less often, much less often, because of my personal circumstances. It really is time that I called it a day, which is fine. I just need to pull that plug, it’s not so easy.”
Just a shout-out to a dear and gracious friend…
Like you, I often think I should stop coming to LwL. The reasons for this are twofold.
First of all, LwL seems to bring out an irrepressibly cheeky side of my nature I didn’t even know I had. When I was a younger man, I was painfully shy, reserved, aloof, formal. I overthought everything. I was a very private person, and I guess I was also a very unhappy person. But I was unaware of the extent of my own unhappiness…
Now I’m a bit of a silly sausage it would seem. For example, a middle-aged friend of mine got a new job as a driving instructor. I saw the special car parked outside his house and I quipped: “Teaching or learning?” His partner just gave me a dirty look. “Cheeky-cheeky!” My friend is obviously a very good driver. 😆
I know when people are having extremely bad intrusive thoughts, they probably don’t appreciate someone in their life being cheerful and cheeky. But I can’t seem to stop my consistently upbeat mood any more than other people can stop their intrusive thoughts.
Sometimes I think I might be sending our poor dear mutual friend Snowphoenix round the bend because she can’t figure out my complex and nuanced personality. It’s not my intention to give other people pain. (Snowphoenix, a quick heads-up: all the painful overthinking stops the moment limerence stops. The painful overthinking is a symptom of limerence. There are no correct answers to life’s big questions that people can memorise). 😉
I am not manic, however. I don’t believe I’m experiencing good moods caused by mania. I feel that at present I’m probably the most emotionally stable I’ve been in my entire adult life. I don’t have an LO and am not in the market for an LO. My past limerence has ended, which is the second reason I may move on from LwL.
I am literally NOT experiencing mood swings anymore and it’s just amazing to no longer have to deal with unpredictable lows!! I think the reason I feel so happy and cheeky all the time is because I’m not experiencing lows or heavy rumination. I just feel lighter all round.
For me, there was never some grand moral reason to shun limerence. I didn’t even know what limerence was. My desire to get rid of limerence was simply a pragmatic desire to avoid feeling low on an irregular schedule. I had low lows and I just didn’t want the stress of having low lows. Will I miss the ecstasy? I don’t know. But I won’t miss the lows – that’s for sure. The lows weren’t much fun. 🙂
I have enjoyed your friendship, and the friendship of the other people here – yes, even little Snowphoenix with her insistent why why whys. I hope the future holds good things for you. 😜
Dear Frederico,
I will be sorry if you go but I totally get it because I have spent less time here myself recently (though I don’t comment, I do often read along). I think we all get triggered sometimes, I know I do. Different posts will resonate or have the opposite (FFS!) effect on us all. Its like being in a squabbling family. Sometimes its so life-affirming and other times, one just needs a break.
I do hope that your limerence has calmed down. Mine has and I wonder whether that means that I am less distracted by my own thoughts hence more easily triggered by outside influence and comments (?).
I hope that personal circumstances in your life are manageable and that you are okay. I love reading your posts. They are so enjoyably – brief 😀 and so humorous. But, yes, a break can be nice.
I better keep this short, haha.
Bx
Hi frederico,
Before you disappear from this site forever…..
I lived in the UK (London) for approximately 30 months in the late 80’s ’90. I may be around the same vintage as yourself?!
I read that you’re a Britisher. I frequented a venue called ‘The Bell’ which was on Pentonville Road Kings Cross. When Kings X was still seedy and not the gentrified suburb I’ve heard it’s become.
The Bell was basically a pub that became a nightclub until the early wee hours of the morning. Just wondering if you ever frequented there. I have very fond memories of going to the Bell and drinking pints and seeing the odd pop culture icon there e.g. Boy George, Jimmy Sommerville (Bronski Beat and solo), Bananarama……
Why not just never click open any posts of the said commenter whose words have annoyed and irritated you so much?
Wish you the best repose and a speedy victory over your battle with your LE!
I’ve been reading on here today as I’ve got too much time on my hands today. Lovisa I hear what you’re saying to James but I also think you are generalizing about younger women. It does happen where younger women go after older men. Some women had distant, cruel or unavailable fathers and turn that into romantic feelings for older men or men in authority. I’m thinking it could be the same with men. My siblings and I had distant father and all struggled with crushes on older men or men in authority over us and Ive known other women with the same issues. For me I’ve found out it’s limerence. It’s so complicated. We can never know what someone’s motives are or even or own sometimes. Yes it is good to not read too much into things but sometimes someone is conveying interest or trying to get attention no matter the effect on the other person.
I’ve read Speedwagon’s story and to me that is strange how she had him over etc. and acted differently and the hugs. Good idea to be careful because you never know and especially with a coworker or subordinate.
Anyway I can’t be on here too much as I don’t want a flare up. Snow thanks for replying to me on another post. Lots to think about.
Beth 2,
I work with a bunch of young people. Some right out of college. Their idea of “older” is 30. When I heard that, I almost feel over. And then I thought: What must they think of me? I am their parents’ age.
I guess I just can’t get my head around thinking someone a great deal younger than me sees me on the sexual playing field.
Sorry. I lost my point. 🙂
I can see being older and finding younger people physically appealing but I can’t get thinking the feelings are returned.
Also, the conversations with them … they’re sweet but they’re babies.
So I do see in part what Lovisa is saying.
I see her point too now that I think about it. I guess it depends on how much younger etc. When I was in my early 20s I was limerant for 35 to 40 year olds. I have sons so I would feel maternal to men a lot younger than me. I have seen larger age spans in men and younger women.
I guess what I was trying to say but didn’t make it very clear is that you just don’t know and can’t assume you’re safe. I’m also not sure how old James is or the younger woman.
By the way, you have made some comments on here that have woke me up and helped me see my LE for what is. I appreciate your perspective and questions to those of us with SOs. Thank you for speaking truth.
Beth,
“When I was in my early 20s I was limerant for 35 to 40 year olds.”
Not me. Even in my mid-20s, 35 seemed ancient. Those were guys with houses and mortgages. 🙂
” I have sons so I would feel maternal to men a lot younger than me.”
I don’t feel motherly. Sisterly, maybe. 🙂
“I guess what I was trying to say but didn’t make it very clear is that you just don’t know and can’t assume you’re safe. I’m also not sure how old James is or the younger woman.”
It’s possible. Personally, I wasn’t often into older men when I was young. If I was, there were really well-preserved or had a position of authority. By that I mean they ran the company. Or they had a lot of charisma/game. It sounds shallow and it was.
“By the way, you have made some comments on here that have woke me up and helped me see my LE for what is. I appreciate your perspective and questions to those of us with SOs. Thank you for speaking truth.”
You’re welcome.
I remember seeing 30 as “old” when I was right out of college. But then I started dating someone not much younger than that (and married him). In my mid-twenties I was married and also crushing on my boss, who was ten years older, lol. (In my defense, I just found a recent pic of him on Facebook, and he’s still hot at 60. OMG)
My niece has been with a guy for years who’s even older than I am. She was 20 and he was in his 40s. I think they’ve been together close to 10 years now. And no, it sure isn’t about power or looks or anything like that, because he doesn’t have that.
So like anything else it’s more of a case-by-case basis.
Oh this reminds me: The other day I mentioned to my SO how it seems like middle-aged guys often have crushes on 20-something women, while middle-aged women seem to prefer crushes on middle-aged men. And my SO said, “That’s because middle-aged women know what 20-year-old guys are like.” lol
SL,
I kind of disagree. If there’s a big age difference, the older person has to being something extra to the table. Because the younger person can date someone their own age.
The whole age thing in the Western world (at least among heterosexuals) is a huge double standard. We expect older men to “behave” around younger women but we double down on older women with younger men. For those of us that read Dr L’s “philosophy post” with the Time article account of an older female college professor clearly manipulating a younger male student under the guise of “limerence” its clear that older women can prey on young men as much as older men with young women. And y’all know how much I blew up in the comments of that post.
Outside of age consent laws if age really is just a number then why is it a big deal? If two people are available and “of age” (depending on the country you’re in) what’s it matter?
I promise you if we got divorced tomorrow and at 47 I hooked up with a 65 year old woman there would no reaction compared to if I hooked up with a 20 something.
I understand both Miss Lovisa’s point and frederico. They both make good points. And am not going to choose a side between two people that are dear friends to me. This is a community where our every word can either encourage people to stay and try to get help. Or be chased away from here out of fear of being ostracized. We don’t want the latter. We should be a haven for those suffering.
Not trying to get too religious but I always liked the parable of the Shepard leaving the whole flock to find the one lost lamb. We are the flock and the one lost lamb is our newcomers here. Let’s be goof shepards.
Ok I’ll get off my high horse now. 😉
Adam,
“I promise you if we got divorced tomorrow and at 47 I hooked up with a 65 year old woman there would no reaction compared to if I hooked up with a 20 something.”
Woman got the short end of the stick both biologically and culturally. If a woman managed to flip that script and get beyond the limitations of “youth and beauty,” yes, I would applaud her.
Good rant Adam, even with your spelling error.
One of the conversations I had with Lady Friend the other night revolved around her non-interest in having Children. She was telling me how at being 29 now she would consider it a “geriatric” pregnancy, if it were to happen to her. She said if she were to do it to appease her Father, she would be popping out babies for the next 3 to 5 years. She said originally she always planned to have 3 or more kids with her last bf (Had they got engaged). Since they broke up, now the interest is gone and she really doesn’t plan to have any.
I think this is another reason why I find myself interested in her more because I’d rather not bring any more Children into the world now either. It would be one conversation we would never have to have if things worked out between us.
However I think I pretty much know the possibility of anything long term is slight. If it were to work out between us, my kids would be the same ages as her 2 younger Brothers..
Awkward? Yes, but possible if she could get past it.
Really Adam. Of all the spellchecks to miss you missed that one. You read this 5 times and still missed it. You goof of an old man. And what’s even more embarrassing is Im sober smh
@Adam,
HAHAHHAHA
I want to be a goof shepherd, too! 🤪
No, but seriously, so happy for you that you are trying to work on your drinking. I hope you feel better for it!
I guess goofs could use shepherds, too! 😉
OK, one more comment. I am just going to fill in a few details to satisfy everyone’s curiosity.
It is already August 14th on the Prime Meridian. I was born August 14th 1965, so my 59th birthday is tomorrow, my local time. My coworker in question is 20, but keep in mind that neither her nor anyone else I work with has any inkling about the things I’ve been telling you; it is all still safely contained within my own head. Because I have gotten this far along in life without ever achieving anything I would consider a tangible success, I don’t look at 20 year olds with any paternal instinct; I just see them as the same women I was trying to mingle with when I was a 20 year old myself. I’m not saying I’m right; I’m just explaining to you where my mindset comes from.
Also too, I found my first post on LWL. It was on 2019 November 23rd : “Resolving to recover” about a third of the way down the comments where I say “Well, I discovered this site yesterday.” I was using my full name “James Afourkeeff” as my handle. The comments I got from other people and from Dr. Limerence are pretty amusing. The LO in this case was only ONE HALF my age (demonic grin here), but this LO was definitely not flirting like some innocent kid – just saying.
“I don’t look at 20 year olds with any paternal instinct; I just see them as the same women I was trying to mingle with when I was a 20 year old myself. I’m not saying I’m right; I’m just explaining to you where my mindset comes from.”
Thanks for clearing that up. I think this is more my mindset when having preference to Womens’ age.
And I think that’s what is in layman’s terms referred to as “refusing to accept your age”. Marcia, back me up here.
Remedy: looking in the mirror with honesty at least twice a day, preferably when one has first woken up.
Sorry, not sorry.
Sure, I was also stuck in my youthful ideas of who appeals to me. Especially after coming out of a long term relationship my tastes would automatically turn to young (i.e. those who I dated right before the latest relationship). But then I woke up.
When I was 30 I seemed to attract a lot of early-20s boys. Of course I also got hassled by older men at work but I definitely did not even consider them! So my demographic was early 20s. I think it was Serial Limerent whose SO said that middle aged women “know what 20-something guys are like”. So yes, now I am back to preferring my age +/- 7 years. That has worked for me over time. I just had to look in the mirror to remember what the starting point is.
Trifles,
“And I think that’s what is in layman’s terms referred to as “refusing to accept your age”. Marcia, back me up here.”
Exactly. It’s complete cluelessness. And a complete slap in the face to middle-aged women. Why do you think middle-aged women are so pissed off?
I don’t get it at all. The men I find appealing are right around my age. As you wrote, + or – 7 years. I’m not militant about it, but I can’t see dating a guy much more than a decade older. And I’m not compromising or settling because I can’t get younger guys. Guys my age are the guys I think are hot. It’s not that I don’t notice younger guys, but … they have no mileage on them. These aren’t the guys you would call in a crisis. You’d have to handle it yourself.
“Sure, I was also stuck in my youthful ideas of who appeals to me. ”
My ideal has aged with me. It’s not frozen in time.
“When I was 30 I seemed to attract a lot of early-20s boys.”
I don’t think that’s that much of an age difference.
” Of course I also got hassled by older men at work but I definitely did not even consider them!”
That’s pretty much how it was for me when I was young. I was looking for the young hotties when I was also young. I couldn’t get my head around being older. That seemed really far away. Those were guys with mortgages and kids and life insurance policies.
“That has worked for me over time. I just had to look in the mirror to remember what the starting point is.”
This isn’t meant to be hostile … but does that mean you’re settling for people your age?
“This isn’t meant to be hostile … but does that mean you’re settling for people your age?”
Marcia, actually no. They are who appeal to me now. I had just honestly gotten frozen in the time period of when I had last been on the lookout. Like my brain refused to catch up – it found it easier to stick to a familiar thought pattern. Like the men here might be (giving them the benefit of the doubt). I had forgotten that I was no longer that age!
I do find younger guys cute as well (and some might find me cute), but it’s not who I would go for.
Trifles,
“I do find younger guys cute as well (and some might find me cute), but it’s not who I would go for.”
Me, neither. I enjoy talking to younger guys, but there’s a big difference in life experience, and you can feel it while you’re talking to them.
Also, there’s a certain level of trophyism to a big age gap relationship for the older person. “Look at me. Look what I’ve got.” Which is icky.
Although I suspect that older women who are extremely successful may not have a lot of options of men their own age who are equally successful because those guys are likely dating younger women.
Although not always. Actor Blair Underwood, who’s in his late 50s and still hot, just married a woman around his age. His first wife was around his age. Bless his heart. 🙂 And Keanu Reeves.
Thanks for the back-up by the way! Although no one (our age or older) is listening to us complain. 😉
I forgot to add: to prove my tastes run age-appropriate: LO2 was 6 years older (and hot!). And you can’t try to trick people with your LO’s, they expose your pure, unadulterated taste. By definition LOs for me are unrequited, so if I truly desired a 20 something wouldn’t one have become my LO?
“And Keanu Reeves.”
I know right? An aging Hollywood actor dating someone close to his own age? Shocking!
“And you can’t try to trick people with your LO’s, they expose your pure, unadulterated taste.”
Something that Marcia likes to frequently remind me when the subject of age comes up. 🙂
Trifles,
” Although no one (our age or older) is listening to us complain. ”
Well, no one, regardless of age, is listening, but I’ll still complain. 🙂
“And you can’t try to trick people with your LO’s, they expose your pure, unadulterated taste. ”
No truer words were written! Because the limerence is based on pure desire/interest. It’s not “Oh, they’ll be a good provider” or “They’ll be a good father” or “They’re nice to my mother.” Limerence doesn’t give a crap about any of that.
“An aging Hollywood actor dating someone close to his own age? Shocking!”
I know, right? Dude can have anyone and he picks someone his own age.
Adam,
“Something that Marcia likes to frequently remind me when the subject of age comes up. 🙂”
If I can’t elicit that kind of primal response in men my own age anymore … I guess I’ll retire. I mean that in all seriousness. I don’t want to be on the “carefully considered” team.
“I don’t want to be on the “carefully considered” team.”
Wouldn’t have you any other way Marcia. I still look back on that post of yours as my first snap back to reality. And I thank you for that. We all need that person that speaks the truth not the “truth”. And you are that person for me.
I think I’ve mentioned before I do happen to like and find Women closer to my age and even older attractive. Kate Walsh, Gwen Stefani, heck even Jane Seymour appeals to me at some level and she’s in her 70s. Sheeesh.. 😬
I just prefer to be with Women under 40 now.
“I couldn’t get my head around being older. That seemed really far away. Those were guys with mortgages and kids and life insurance policies.”
Marcia,
Thanks for the age reminder. Not only are my kids grown now, I made a life insurance policy payment today too. Lmfao.. 🤣
““I don’t want to be on the “carefully considered” team.”
Dear Applicant…
Adam,
” I still look back on that post of yours as my first snap back to reality.”
Stop bringing that post up! It makes me cringe. 🙂
MJ,
“I just prefer to be with Women under 40 now.”
I’ve sent out an email to all women forty and over alerting them. In the next few hours, you may see news reports of either mad mourning or mad partying in the streets. 🙂
“I’ve sent out an email to all women forty and over alerting them.”
Thanks Marcia. My Ex said she got the email. She seemed pretty happy because you confirmed what she knew all along.. 😉
MJ,
“Thanks Marcia. My Ex said she got the email. She seemed pretty happy because you confirmed what she knew all along. 😉”
That’s not what she emailed back to me. The happiness was that you were leaving women 40 and over alone. 🙂
“The happiness was that you were leaving women 40 and over alone. 🙂”
Marcia,
Yeah, that sounds about right. 🤣🤣
MJ,
“Yeah, that sounds about right. 🤣🤣”
We got a whole movement going. Old Chicks of the World. Like MeToo but better hats. 🙂
And just to let you know … you’re on the list. Once you go younger, you can’t come back to our side. 🙂
“Once you go younger, you can’t come back to our side. 🙂”
And here I thought you were trying to politely ask me to come back to the Dark Side.. 🤔🤠
MJ,
“And here I thought you were trying to politely ask me to come back to the Dark Side.. 🤔🤠”
There’s actually been a lot of talk at recent Old Chicks meetings to change the bylaws. We’re going to focus now on men under 40.
“We’re going to focus now on men under 40.”
With you as the Chairperson of this committee, I expect there to be significant progress.
MJ,
“With you as the Chairperson of this committee, I expect there to be significant progress.”
LOL
Everyone on the committee is really excited about the upcoming presidential elections. Imagine the level of male hotness on the Cabinet if we take over the White House. 🙂
“There’s actually been a lot of talk at recent Old Chicks meetings to change the bylaws. We’re going to focus now on men under 40.”
Single men everywhere over 40 with 401Ks might be breathing easier soon!
But, where does that leave the Provisional Gold Digger wing of Old Chicks?
LE,
“But, where does that leave the Provisional Gold Digger wing of Old Chicks?”
I haven’t heard of such a wing.
The Old Chicks organization has an affordable, communal home for those who would like to reside there. Entertainment on the weekend is often a male revue.
Marcia,
A house full of Golden Girls having male revues on the weekend sounds like your stereotypical FL over 55 community.
LE,
“A house full of Golden Girls having male revues on the weekend sounds like your stereotypical FL over 55 community.”
I have no problem being a cliche. And the women on that show looked like they were having a lot of fun living together.
Marcia,
“I have no problem being a cliche.”
That surprises me coming from you but I suppose that depends on the cliche, who’s tagging you with it, and whether you agree with the assessment.
LE,
“That surprises me coming from you ”
Most people are the rule and not the exception.
Which ties into the topic here. Most men won’t end up with a significantly younger woman. That’s the exception.
Marcia,
So, which Golden Girl would you be, if any?
One of the cable channels runs “Golden Girls” ad nauseum. If my wife is looking for background noise, she’ll often put it on.
Of the 4, only Dorothy remotely holds any appeal to me. I like her intellect and wit. My uncle’s mother-in-law was a widowed Italian matron so I can relate to Sophia. I find Blanche insufferable and Rose just grates on me.
Needless to say, I don’t sit through many episodes although I do like the one where Dorothy dreams of being on Jeopardy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPlBYUaxcyM
LE,
“So, which Golden Girl would you be, if any?”
I don’t really identify with any of them, though I like all the characters and they had a good chemistry. I agree that Dorothy is very funny.
I liked the female friendships, the sense of family they created. And in its time, the show was groundbreaking because they were “women of a certain age” and they were dating and having boyfriends and being quite randy. 🙂
Thanks for sharing your original LO story with us, James A. Also, thank you for being honest about your attraction to young women. I admire that you bravely used your real name on LwL. That takes courage.
I would like to attempt a redo of my earlier comment. I’m hopeful that Frederico will provide feedback because I appreciate that he pointed out some areas where I could improve my communication. Here goes…
James A, it sounds like you are attracted to women who are young enough to be your daughter and possibly even granddaughter. These attractions seem to happen in the work place. I was under the impression that these girls may have sent signals that they might be attracted to you, too. Or perhaps you wondered if they were displaying signs of interest. Because of the age difference, it is highly unlikely that these girls are interested in a romantic relationship. I’m sorry, that probably hurts. I suspect that they see you as a parental figure. I know that’s a tough pill to swallow, but I encourage you to consider that you are in a very different stage of life than your LO.
I would like to see you thrive in healthy relationships. I don’t think it is in your best interest to attempt to build a romantic relationship with a woman who is young enough to be your daughter. I do think you can have a lovely work relationship with a woman who is young enough to be your daughter. I also think that it can develop into a friendship if you behave appropriately. I would encourage you to treat the young women (and all coworkers) with kindness and don’t expect much in return.
I can’t speak for all women, but I suspect that the majority of straight women are not romantically interested in men who are old enough to be their father. I can’t speak for gay men or lesbian women at all. I couldn’t even guess how relevant age is for either of them because I have no experience in those areas.
Good luck, James A!
@Lovisa,
Just to throw my hat in briefly – kudos for the rewrite of this post. But – don’t change who you are on here just because of the declared preferences of a few posters (unless you really want to, that is). Sometimes it is the straighter talking that really gets through to people. The help you’ve given me has stopped me making bad errors of judgement.
@Lovisa,
Think I agree with Lim-a-rant here. This post feels different but I get the point you are trying to make.
Thanks Lim-a-rant and MJ!
I have a friend who’s gay who has said that May-December pairings are common in the gay community…Of course, I don’t have firsthand knowledge of this.
A young girl might fall for a man on the younger side of “old enough to be her father”–say, 20 years older or so. But when you’re getting to a 30 or 40 year age difference–Unless you’re an actor or rich, it’s highly unlikely. (And even if you are, her motivations are probably not based on love and she’ll probably take up with the pool boy in your absence, lol.)
SL,
“A young girl might fall for a man on the younger side of “old enough to be her father”–say, 20 years older or so. But when you’re getting to a 30 or 40 year age difference–Unless you’re an actor or rich, it’s highly unlikely. (And even if you are, her motivations are probably not based on love and she’ll probably take up with the pool boy in your absence, lol.)”
Am I wrong in thinking that having to even point out most women won’t want a big age difference … seems kind of odd? That’s it’s obvious?
I had an interesting experience at the grocery store today. My daughter (19), me (46) and my mom (78) were checking out together. The cashier was a man who I would guess was in his seventies. He gave me the eye when we started loading our groceries onto the conveyor belt. I thought I must have misunderstood, surely he isn’t flirting with me. He kept looking at me with this weird expression and he went out of his way to load our groceries into our grocery cart. I thought, “He must be interested in my mom.” Nope! He wasn’t looking at my mom (who is his age). He was watching me and it was weird. I couldn’t be friendly because I didn’t want to encourage him so I was boring and aloof. It is not like me not to be friendly, but the guy made me feel very uncomfortable. As we walked away, my daughter let her hair down and her beautiful, long, shiny, blonde hair cascaded down her back. I couldn’t resist playing with it because it’s so pretty. I thought, “I wonder why he was checking me out when I’m walking around with my beautiful daughter. He should be looking at my mom because he is her age, but if age isn’t an issue to him, why me and not my daughter?” My point is this, I was unfriendly because he made me feel uncomfortable. If he had treated me like all the other cashiers, I would have been very friendly and I think the experience would have been more pleasant for everyone. If he had been checking out my mom, I would have been amused and probably encouraging. I hope this makes sense. I thought the timing of this experience was interesting considering what we’ve been talking about.
Miss Lovisa
Ill share an age related story. Back before I got married I worked at gas station. One Saturday evening two women came to the register both buying alcohol. Company policy (that was posted everywhere in the store) was to ID anyone that looked younger than 40. Inadvertently I ID the mother but not the daughter. The mother was giving her daughter grief the whole way out of store. It was totally unintentional but I hope it made her day.
I love it!
Lovisa thanks for sharing that. It’s interesting. This whole conversation has got me thinking. I really thought about it and wanted to clarify that I have never dated anyone significantly older. It was always within 2 or 3 years either younger or older. But my limerence has mostly been for someone older the max being 20 years older and there always was a barrier. Just wanted to clarify that.
Very interesting, Beth 2! I had a crush on David Brooks, the author, for a while. I think he is almost 20 years older than me. It was just a celebrity crush. I can kind of relate, but in reality, those big age gaps are rare in romantic relationships. My biggest age gap was 10 years almost to the day. His birthday was the day before mine. He turned 29 then I turned 19.
Before I read the most recent comments, the age conversation reminded me of something I heard when working with advertising people: When you want to advertise to the silver fox crowd, shall we say, you should always use pictures of people 20 years younger than your target group. Because that is how they honestly see themselves!
So if you want to sell a car to a 65-year old man, a 45-year old man should be driving it in the ad. Call it the “frozen in time” effect. So I guess it’s no wonder that these “45-yo’s” look at 35-yo women and see them as being perfectly attainable. 😉
On a side note, my body is the same as it was when I was 25 (now in my 40s), maybe just a tiny bit more toned now. I just have these sexy crinkles around my eyes now. So I am also guilty of seeing myself as younger than I am. 😜
That is so interesting!
I remember meeting a woman in a club one time. She was dancing with me, and she was a very attractive 30ish lady. I was approaching 50 at the time. She commented how she only wanted to dance and could see I was married. That was fine, but then she pointed out a guy around 40 and she mentioned how she and her mother (in her early 50s) were fighting over the guy. Apparently, he was more into the mother. Age dynamics for dating can be strange, but I once heard that 40 is a great age for men because they can date women in their 20s and 30s – or their mothers.
Interesting to see my name crop up in so many posts. Honestly, this week I was trying **cough, cough** to be inconspicuous. I was planning to chill in the VIP section with me homies, devouring me stash of pilfered brownies, etc, etc.
Please rest assured that I didn’t bother to read any of the comments that mention my name. I only read critiques penned by famous critics. I’m sure some people had kind things to say about me. If that is the case, thank you. 🙂 Your affection is most deliciously misplaced. I’m sure some people had unkind things to say about me. If that is the case, thank you and you’re welcome. I’ve been trying to shed my squeaky-clean 90s boyband image for almost three decades now. 😆
I seem to be an extremely fluid cultural icon, much like Oscar Wilde in the years following his death, or the divine Marilyn Monroe during her own lifetime. People project all sorts of fascinating things onto me. But none of the things people believe about me have anything to do with who I really am as a person. What can I say? I am clearly no more than a “screen” for other people’s projections. 😇
@Marcia.
You are most welcome to disagree with me anytime about anything you like. In fact, I’d be offended if you didn’t disagree with me. You’re your own unique person with your own unique feelings and your own unique point of view. Do I care for you point of view? No comment. Do I like you as a human being? Yes! 🙂
I didn’t bother to read the thing you disagreed with me about. That’s how much I trust your judgement, ma cherie. Your blend of strong emotion and common sense is publicist’s idea of heaven on a stick. (DON’T read too much into that last line. We all know where your mind likes to go). 🙂
@Lim-a-rant.
So flattered you remember me. Who are you again? (No, just kidding. Nice to see you’re still here, mate, and contributing in a thoughtful manner). 👍
@Snowphoenix.
Fascinating commentary! 😁 I seem to be occupying some serious s[ace in your brain these days. Might even be giving good old Proust a run for his money!! I didn’t bother to read your endless stream of words, as I have no wish to invade your privacy, but my eye did alight on a single phrase. Just to put your geographically-confused mind to rest, I’m not from Mars. I’m also not from Venus. Nor am I from Jupiter. I actually hail from … Planet Earth, like most of the regular commentators here I should imagine. Earth. That’s spelled E-A-R-T-H. 🙂
(Sorry for once again teasing you good-naturedly, but you really walked into that one. If you would like me to stop teasing you good-naturedly, perhaps you could stop expertly setting yourself to be the BUTT of a thousand good-natured jokes?) 🙂
@Frederico.
I’m sorry I asked…
(This comment means absolutely nothing. I just thought it would make a great punchline. Perhaps you can think of an appropriate joke to go with such a good punchline? Nothing related to handkerchiefs please. No, wait … I’m sorry I asked). 😜
No, seriously, mate, during your time here at LwL, you have been a perfect gentleman. You’ve never said or done anything any reasonable person would find offensive. You may have a slightly naughty sense of humour. What of it? You and eight billion plus other humans. Dirty thoughts AREN’T limerence. Intrusive thoughts that begin to cause the thinker significant levels of distress are limerence – or, at least, the kind of limerence people generally seek relief from. Your conduct has been impeccable, my friend. You have nothing to apologise for. 🙂
@LN.
Happy you are still with us and in reasonably good spirits. 🙂
@Lovisa.
It seems like this week was your turn to be unpopular. I’m sorry about that. I don’t know what you might have said to upset so many applecarts, and I don’t want to know. Petty friendship drama and office gossip doesn’t interest me ion the slightest. I haven’t been following recent discussion as I’ve been FAR too busy eating brownies, washing handkerchiefs, and studying astronomy. 🙂
What I do want to say is I’ve always found your commentary (in the rare instances I’ve actually read it) to be good-intentioned, warm, and kind. I appreciate the kindness with which you always speak, and your sincere desire to support others. I hope this week hasn’t given you second thoughts about the worthwhile role you play here at LwL – you have been something of a stabilising influence I feel. 🙂
Sammy,
“You are most welcome to disagree with me anytime about anything you like.”
I wasn’t asking for permission. Only for forgiveness after the fact. 🙂
” Do I care for you point of view? No comment. Do I like you as a human being? Yes! 🙂”
Lol
“I didn’t bother to read the thing you disagreed with me about. That’s how much I trust your judgement, ma cherie. Your blend of strong emotion and common sense is publicist’s idea of heaven on a stick. (DON’T read too much into that last line. We all know where your mind likes to go). 🙂”
If you’re trying to flatter me, it’s working. 🙂
C’mon … you’re thrown me such an obvious bone. You wrote the word STICK. 🙂
I was commenting on your post about validation. You wrote you didn’t want to be responsible for providing it to people. When I think that most people need it, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Whether it’s a friendship or a family relationship or a romantic partnership. Within reason, depending on the context. Having a strong sense of self and confidence are very good qualities to have. But I still think people need validation. (Obviously, someone who needs too much validation will become draining. Or, if a romantic partner, will be out prowling for outside attention. )
Throwing buckets of fantasied brownies to a smoky “screen” is more fruitful (unnoticed hands would take them under a moonshine…) than dashing them to a clear, “magnificent” LO/LE mirage…
A 😢 intrusion: If on “E-A-R-T-H” enough while making thousands tumbling with laugher, poor Robin Williams would be still with us limerent earthling… 😞
@Sammy,
I always appreciate your ability to make me laugh in hard times. It’s part of the free therapy you all provide here on LwL 😉
I see xLO’s common first name everywhere at least half dozen times per day, which gives me brain-hiccups of varied quantity, intensity and duration. Thank Jupiter/Zeus, none of my students and pupils has that name; otherwise, I’d serially stutter. 😖
There is no place on the Earth to escape to, so I’ve migrated to Mars 🌝, blowing red dusts ☄️to Venus from time to time…
No matter how much I prepare Stoically, life always finds its way to test me: just found out this afternoon that one of my new students this semester has the same first name of xLO/MFP… I may become a serial “stutter” soon… 👅
The wheel of fate spins… never brag one’s small luck at any given time!
In my COO, it’s said, “A bad luck never walks alone.” — it’s proven true almost all the time 😩 — now I’ve got two students who share the same first name with xLO, and one of them is a big charmer (not nearly glimmering as Romeo back in Feb.)… to substitute xLO’s seductive smiles?
A luck or woe on me 🤔❓ The Universe’s Zeus is testing my scaring LE brain again❓Could I “use” this kiddo as a temporary transference ❓(only in the head, mind you🙄)
Hearthside
Dorothy Parker
Half across the world from me
Lie the lands I’ll never see—
I, whose longing lives and dies
Where a ship has sailed away;
I, that never close my eyes
But to look upon Cathay.
Things I may not know nor tell
Wait, where older waters swell;
Ways that flowered at Sappho’s tread,
Winds that sighed in Homer’s strings,
Vibrant with the singing dead,
Golden with the dust of wings.
Under deeper skies than mine,
Quiet valleys dip and shine.
Where their tender grasses heal
Ancient scars of trench and tomb
I shall never walk: nor kneel
Where the bones of poets bloom.
If I seek a lovelier part,
Where I travel goes my heart;
Where I stray my thought must go;
With me wanders my desire.
Best to sit and watch the snow,
Turn the lock, and poke the fire.
Hope
Elsa Gidlow
1898 –1986
You would win me, woo me, win me,
To be your lover, Hope!
You would lure me, charm me, lure me,
With all your deathless youth!
You would have me worship, adore you,
Build my life for you;
Mould my moments into hours
Out of your careless smile!
How you pursue me, woo me, follow,
Like a light-headed girl.
All the world is your willing lover:
What do you want with me?
You are a wanton, lovely, perfect,
A dazzling thing like day,
Draped with silk things,
Tasselled, jewelled,
Hung about with veils;
Painted with sweet lies men have blended
Of folly and dreams and fear.
You are a wanton, all men’s mistress:
What do you want with me?
What are your gifts worth, light bestower?
All lips know your kiss.
What is your word worth, soft-tongued liar?
You have deceived all men.
Why do you follow, woo me, follow,
Like a light-headed girl?
What can I give you? What can you give me?
What do you want with me?
Painted wanton! Tasselled Houri!
Gay in your dress of shame!
You are all men’s willing mistress.
What do I want with you?
*****
A Stoic 🐦🔥 wants to be but could never be….
A stoic believes that no amount of hope, regardless of who it is expressed to and for what reason, will have an ACTUAL effect on ANY outcome.
But without a dose of hope, how could one survive❓
https://youtu.be/Vd1vfn-mMug?si=nccjfb5_Rr9WWlFZ — Things You Have to Forget in Order to Live
How to forget or unlearn❓❓
Ballade of a Great Weariness
Dorothy Parker
1893 –1967
There’s little to have but the things I had,
There’s little to bear but the things I bore.
There’s nothing to carry and naught to add,
And glory to Heaven, I paid the score.
There’s little to do but I did before,
There’s little to learn but the things I know;
And this is the sum of a lasting lore:
Scratch a lover, and find a foe.
And couldn’t it be I was young and mad
If ever my heart on my sleeve I wore?
There’s many to claw at a heart unclad,
And little the wonder it ripped and tore.
There’s one that’ll join in their push and roar,
With stories to jabber, and stones to throw;
He’ll fetch you a lesson that costs you sore—
Scratch a lover, and find a foe.
So little I’ll offer to you, my lad;
It’s little in loving I set my store.
There’s many a maid would be flushed and glad,
And better you’ll knock at a kindlier door.
I’ll dig at my lettuce, and sweep my floor—
Forever, forever I’m done with woe—
And happen I’ll whistle about my chore,
“Scratch a lover, and find a foe.”
L’ENVOI:
Oh, beggar or prince, no more, no more!
Be off and away with your strut and show.
The sweeter the apple, the blacker the core—
Scratch a lover, and find a foe!
Scratch a LO, and caress a lover!
Ballade of a Great Weariness — A parody ❄️ 🐦🔥
There’s little to have but the things I had,
There’s little to bear but the things I bore.
There’s nothing to carry and naught to add,
And glory to Heaven, I paid the score.
There’s little to do but I did before,
There’s little to learn but the things I know;
And this is the sum of a lasting lore:
Scratch a dazzling LO in your head,
And caress a touchable beloved in your bed.
And couldn’t it be I was young and mad
If ever my heart on my sleeve I wore?
There’s many to claw at a heart unclad,
And little the wonder it ripped and tore.
There’s one that’ll join in their push and roar,
With stories to jabber, and stones to throw;
He’ll fetch you a lesson that costs you sore-
Scratch a glaring LO in your head,
And caress a substantial beloved in your bed.
So little I’ll offer to you, my lad;
It’s NO in limerence I set my store.
There’s many a limerent would be flushed and glad,
And better you’ll knock at a limerent’s door.
I’ll dig at my lettuce, and sweep my floor—
Forever, forever I’m done with woe-
And happen I’ll whistle about my chore,
“Scratch a glimmering LO in your head,
and caress an appreciating beloved in your bed.”
L’ENVOI:
Oh, pauper or prince,
no more, no more in your head!
Be off and away with your strut and show.
The sweeter the LO, the deeper the limerence—
Scratch a blazing LO in your head,
and caress a reciprocating beloved in your bed!
Ballade of a Great Weariness — A parody 🐦🔥
There’s little to have but the things I had,
There’s little to bear but the things I bore.
There’s nothing to carry and naught to add,
And glory to Heaven, I paid the score.
There’s little to do but I did before,
There’s little to learn but the things I know;
And this is the sum of a lasting lore:
Scratch a dazzling LO in your head,
And twiddle a touchable lover in thy bed.
And couldn’t it be I was young and mad
If ever my heart on my sleeve I wore?
There’s many to claw at a heart unclad,
And little the wonder it ripped and tore.
There’s LO that’ll join in their push and roar,
With stories to jabber, and stones to throw;
He’ll fetch you a lesson that costs you sore-
Scratch a glaring LO in your head,
And cuddle a substantial lover in thy bed.
So little I’ll offer to you, my lad;
It’s NO in limerence I set my store.
There’s many a limerent would be flushed and glad,
And better you’ll knock at a limerencing door.
I’ll dig at my lettuce, and sweep my floor—
Forever, forever I’m done with woe-
And happen I’ll whistle about my chore,
“Scratch a glimmering LO in your head,
And fondle an appreciating lover in thy bed.”
L’ENVOI:
Oh, pauper or prince,
no more, no more in the head!
Be off and away with LO’s strut and show.
The sweeter a LO, the blacker a limerence core—
Scratch a blazing LO in your head,
And rattle a reciprocating lover in thy bed!
8/25/2024
To a Skylark
Percy Bysshe Shelley
Hail to thee, blithe Spirit!
Bird thou never wert,
That from heaven, or near it,
Pourest thy full heart
In profuse strains of unpremeditated art.
Higher still and higher
From the earth thou springest
Like a cloud of fire;
The blue deep thou wingest,
And singing still dost soar, and soaring ever singest.
In the golden lightning
Of the sunken sun,
O’er which clouds are bright’ning,
Thou dost float and run,
Like an unbodied joy whose race is just begun.
The pale purple even
Melts around thy flight;
Like a star of heaven
In the broad daylight
Thou art unseen, but yet I hear thy shrill delight,
Keen as are the arrows
Of that silver sphere
Whose intense lamp narrows
In the white dawn clear
Until we hardly see—we feel that it is there.
All the earth and air
With thy voice is loud,
As, when night is bare,
From one lonely cloud
The moon rains out her beams, and heaven is overflowed.
What thou art we know not;
What is most like thee?
From rainbow clouds there flow not
Drops so bright to see
As from thy presence showers a rain of melody.
Like a poet hidden
In the light of thought,
Singing hymns unbidden,
Till the world is wrought
To sympathy with hopes and fears it heeded not:
Like a high-born maiden
In a palace tower,
Soothing her love-laden
Soul in secret hour
With music sweet as love, which overflows her bower:
Like a glow-worm golden
In a dell of dew,
Scattering unbeholden
Its aerial hue
Among the flowers and grass, which screen it from the view:
Like a rose embowered
In its own green leaves,
By warm winds deflowered,
Till the scent it gives
Makes faint with too much sweet these heavy-winged thieves:
Sound of vernal showers
On the twinkling grass,
Rain-awakened flowers,
All that ever was
Joyous, and clear, and fresh, thy music doth surpass.
Teach us, sprite or bird,
What sweet thoughts are thine:
I have never heard
Praise of love or wine
That panted forth a flood of rapture so divine.
Chorus hymeneal
Or triumphal chaunt
Matched with thine would be all
But an empty vaunt,
A thing wherein we feel there is some hidden want.
What objects are the fountains
Of thy happy strain?
What fields, or waves, or mountains?
What shapes of sky or plain?
What love of thine own kind? what ignorance of pain?
With thy clear keen joyance
Languor cannot be:
Shadow of annoyance
Never came near thee:
Thou lovest, but ne’er knew love’s sad satiety.
Waking or asleep,
Thou of death must deem
Things more true and deep
Than we mortals dream,
Or how could thy notes flow in such a crystal stream?
We look before and after,
And pine for what is not:
Our sincerest laughter
With some pain is fraught;
Our sweetest songs are those that tell of saddest thought.
Yet if we could scorn
Hate, and pride, and fear;
If we were things born
Not to shed a tear,
I know not how thy joy we ever should come near.
Better than all measures
Of delightful sound,
Better than all treasures
That in books are found,
Thy skill to poet were, thou scorner of the ground!
Teach me half the gladness
That thy brain must know,
Such harmonious madness
From my lips would flow
The world should listen then, as I am listening now!
****
Pray Apollo’s lyre and his pupils — 9 muses, would soothe LE-aches… ❤️🩹
Between midnight and eternity
Kettly Mars
translated from the French by Nathan H. Dize
The rain has shelved its watering can
A sweet dew rises from the earth
Everything is calm now
The bed beneath the mosquito netting awaits
Your eyelids grow heavy
You cannot wait to slip into the void
But the poem suddenly clings to you
As though your desires mean nothing
It clings to you, overpowering you
The poem slides under your skin
Hides itself in your bloodstream
You must conceive it, there and now
You must carry it in your womb
You must give it life
So your night can finally begin
Midnight splits the darkness in two
The day changes its course
But the poem clings to you
Disillusionment
Elsa Gidlow
1898 –1986
The agonies of disillusionment are the growing-pains of Truth
Now I am done with ineffectual dreams,
Kindly play-toys of the unsure years,
And unencumbered, proud and free and light,
With even pulses and a lifting heart,
I mount the future’s twisting stairs.
A week ago I thought that I must die,
Or hang forever, bitter as frost-killed fruit,
Scarred and broken from the Tree of Life —
Because I suddenly came into my sight
And men walked as trees; and dreams went mute.
’T is no small thing, to lose a dear, sure world,
To stumble, desolate, through hideous space,
Down unfamiliar and unfriendly roads
That bruise your feet. And then to suddenly feel
A great light newly shining in your face.
Zephyrus has arrived… 💨
Despair
Elsa Gidlow
I can laugh now.
Have you not heard my laughter?
It leads the winds:
They come tumbling and bubbling after.
I have learned to laugh.
I have learned to laugh with my spirit
And with my soul.
Listen. Do you not hear it?
I shall quench the world.
I shall sear the stars with my laughter;
Shrivel the moon and the sun
And make new ones after.
For life’s skeleton
I shall make flesh from desires;
Then of my mounting laughter
Build it a temple with mocking spires.
I shall laugh to heaven.
I shall laugh below hell and above.
I shall laugh forever.
It was laughter God died of.
Ecstasy
Elsa Gidlow
Stars, turn from your courses,
Stars, stars, I want you,
Spill into my hands.
I have found a new loneliness,
A new strong loneliness,
That no one understands.
I know a new joy, stars,
A joy of the still peak,
The wonder of airs knife-sharp;
Stars, I have learned to know them,
I have learned the tongue they speak.
Stars, I can understand them,
All the words they say,
All the subtle things.
They teach me exaltation,
A new intoxication
Fine drawn as the music of harp-strings.
Alone … alone … alone …
Stars, I can hear my skin breathe,
Hear my blood beat.
How can flesh be so light,
Feet walk and touch nothing,
Thought become so fleet?
Time is a rhymeless poem
Without any end Written in space,
Here at the world’s summit
Where life-giving winds
Sharply whip one’s face.
Life is the one reality,
Life intensely realized,
Life wildly felt;
Death is an ungrasped dream,
A vague monstrous fable,
A puzzle still unspelt.
Alone … alone … alone …
No other thing that breathes
In this keen place.
O my new joy,
Joy of singing summits,
Of endless, vibrant space!
Stars, stars, stoop down,
Stars, turn from your courses,
Spill into my hands!
Stars, you are my kindred:
I am strong with a new loneliness
That no one understands.
*****
After one let go the string of longing for a fantasied parental love….
After having lived in LwL, I, Limerent Lover, will never have fear of limerence —
****
I, Lover [limerent]
Elsa Gidlow
1898 – 1986
I shall never have any fear of [limerence],
Not of its depth nor its uttermost height,
Its exquisite pain and its terrible delight.
I shall never have any fear of [limerence].
I shall never hesitate to go down
Into the fastness of its abyss
Nor shrink from the cruelty of its awful kiss.
I shall never have any fear of [limerence].
Never shall I dread [limerence]’s strength
Nor any pain it might give.
Through all the years I may live
I shall never have any fear of [limerence].
I shall never draw back from [limerence]
Through fear of its vast pain
But build joy of it and count it again.
I shall never have any fear of [limerence].
I shall never tremble nor flinch
From [limerence]’s moulding touch:
I have [limerent]ed too terribly and too much
Ever to have any fear of [limerence].
*****
🐦🔥 Chorus: 🎶
We shall never tremble nor flinch
From limerence’s moulding touch:
We have limerented too terribly and too much
Ever to have any fear of limerence.
😅🤣😂
🎶 Chorus —
In and out of LwL
Rising up or going down
we, Limerent Lovers
will never have fear of limerence.
****
I, Lover [limerent]
Elsa Gidlow
1898 – 1986
I shall never have any fear of [limerence],
Not of its depth nor its uttermost height,
Its exquisite pain and its terrible delight.
I shall never have any fear of [limerence].
I shall never hesitate to go down
Into the fastness of its abyss
Nor shrink from the cruelty of its awful kiss.
I shall never have any fear of [limerence].
Never shall I dread [limerence]’s strength
Nor any pain it might give.
Through all the years I may live
I shall never have any fear of [limerence].
I shall never draw back from [limerence]
Through fear of its vast pain
But build joy of it and count it again.
I shall never have any fear of [limerence].
I shall never tremble nor flinch
From [limerence]’s moulding touch:
I have [limerent]ed too terribly and too much
Ever to have any fear of [limerence].
*****
🐦🔥 Chorus: 🎶
We shall never tremble nor flinch
From limerence’s moulding touch:
We have limerented too terribly and too much
Ever to have any fear of limerence.
🎶 Chorus —
In Living with Limerence town
Rising up or going down
We, Limerent Lovers
Will never have fear of limerence.
****
I, Lover [limerent]
Elsa Gidlow (1898 – 1986)
I shall never have any fear of [limerence],
Not of its depth nor its uttermost height,
Its exquisite pain and its terrible delight.
I shall never have any fear of [limerence].
I shall never hesitate to go down
Into the fastness of its abyss
Nor shrink from the cruelty of its awful kiss.
I shall never have any fear of [limerence].
Never shall I dread [limerence]’s strength
Nor any pain it might give.
Through all the years I may live
I shall never have any fear of [limerence].
I shall never draw back from [limerence]
Through fear of its vast pain
But build joy of it and count it again.
I shall never have any fear of [limerence].
I shall never tremble nor flinch
From [limerence]’s moulding touch:
I have [limerent]ed too terribly and too much
Ever to have any fear of [limerence].
*****
🐦🔥 Chorus: 🎶
We, limerent lovers
Shall never tremble nor flinch
From limerence’s moulding touch:
We, limerent lovers
Have limerented too terribly and too much
Ever to have any fear of limerence.
to bring this back on topic, there is one “significant site of salience” pertaining to my LE in my neighbourhood.
Instead of avoiding it, I make an effort to walk / run past it, 2-3x a week, ever since going NC.
It’s been 2 months now.
Not a twinge going past there, not even from day 1.
Maybe because it looks so different during the day, compared to nighttime.
One thing that I do have to avoid, though, is listening to love songs, especially those about unrequited love..
Damn, that’s most of my playlist.
Yeah I am as of tomorrow going to a place of reminder of her. I say it is because I have actual work related reasons (it is the location of our company that she worked at), and it is. Something I don’t necessarily have to do it person, but I do prefer face to face conversation than the phone when it comes to what I need to do.
So I decided to travel there in person. And I guess I am wondering sometimes in the back of my head if I am doing it for …. reasons. Either way, I have been avoiding this environmental trigger for the most part since she left.
And I am with you on music. It is still a struggle as that has always been my favorite music; sappy love songs. Get me some drinks and I’m doing Barry Manilow karaoke.
“I decided to travel there in person. And I guess I am wondering sometimes in the back of my head if I am doing it for …. reasons.”
I drive by LOs current work location and our old one going into and leaving work every night. The only reason is for some sweet thought of her as I drive by her old window, or the great hope I’ll see her again next door. Which is rare anymore being on a different shift. I have to go out of my way if I ever want to see her nowadays. Usually I am too tired. Or getting off at odd hours in the early morning.
I wouldn’t even have to be over in that part of the complex to go into work but the nostalgia of her warms my heart.. Just how it is.
BTW, things are back to normal. This morning she was basically asking me, in so many words “What the hell did you do all night on your shift? What’s this stack of travelers? It’s OK, I’ll figure out.”
I think I’m out of the woods; apparently, she is too. I successfully dodged a limerent bullet to live another day, but not without all of the support from this community.
Some other insights on the whole age gap thing that I totally overlooked are that I look much younger than my age. (People guess my age to be about 35 to 45) I also lived alone with a girl for about three years while she was waiting for her “old man” to get out of prison – he is out and we are kind of like a family now. She was 30 at the time, but she was often mistaken for being a teenager. She was always being harassed by guys at work for dates. We were never intimate except for a couple of times when she asked me to do some things for her, until we both started feeling weird, and we stopped. She asks me to give her foot rubs while her man is right there watching TV, and there is no problem. So, young women, or at least young looking women, are what I just happen to be accustomed to. Sometimes it can be really hard to tell someone’s age anyway.
I think my visit Friday for work went fairly well. I got to meet the new gal and put a face to her voice. She seems to be pretty content at the job. The other gal that’s been here over a year is friends with her and said she, the new gal, doesn’t plan to leave soon. And I got to bring up some concerns of my own to my supervisor.
I did let him get to me though. When we were just all just chit chatting LO came up and the new gals asked me about her and he intentionally pushed my buttons about her to get me rilled up. And I did. Got mad at myself for letting him do that. He thought it was funny. He can be a dick like that. But I also shouldn’t have let him get to me like that. Was fuming the whole way back home. Still feel the need to defend her even after all this time.
I recommend this spell caster.
I haven’t been on here in years, but I wanted to post a bit of an update. I thought I was dealing with this limerence thing well. LO #1 was a distant memory (despite being back in my life in a very small way). I was almost entirely over LO #2, and my glimmery friend never became LO #3, although I did have a minor crush on her and I began to miss her flirtatious behaviour towards me). I’ve also finally set a date to get the ball rolling separating from my wife after reiterating to her literally hundreds of times that yes, I do want a divorce, and no, I’m not ever going to change my mind about it.
Then she walked into my life. My bona fide LO # 3. It all started over a year ago when I was at a show with a bunch of my friends. This tall, beautiful lady stood right next to me. She was at least a friend-of-a-friend-of-a-friend. It seemed like she wanted me to talk to her, but I just stood there asking myself, “What’s the point? You’re married anyway.” I didn’t say anything, but since then I always looked out for the lovely, tall, mysterious lady. She came out with us a few times after that, but she never sat at the same table. Still, I always looked out for her and watched her out of the corner of my eye. But it was never a big deal. No limerence or anything major, but I was definitely intrigued.
Fast forward to a few months ago when she was out with us and I introduced myself to her. In the coming weeks, I met her a few more times and I got to know her a bit. She is an absolutely lovely woman. Funny, smart, successful, classy, a great conversationalist, and totally my type – tall and curvaceous with long blonde hair. We definitely have a lot in common in our musical tastes too, and several mutual friends. I’m smitten.
The problem is I’m still married. I still don’t want to do anything totally inappropriate while I’m still living under the same roof as my wife. I also know this lady has morals. I don’t want to scare her off, so I’m happy to keep it light and just be friends – at least for now. The issue is my male friend has done some bone-headed things in the past like unilaterally trying to set me up with women. I thought he had done the same with her when I mentioned something to her about it, saying that I was just looking for friendship. Unfortunately, however, he hadn’t said anything to her. I saw her once more after that and she was very friendly towards me, but I don’t think she expected me to show up that night. I haven’t seen her since. I get the distinct feeling she is avoiding me. What started off as me not wanting to scare her off resulted in scaring her off anyway. She checks our group chats regularly but never comments. I’m starting to believe she is just monitoring where I’ll be to ensure she doesn’t show up.
Anyway, I am so sad about this. I know it’s far too early to be thinking about anyone else, but I had hoped for a nice friend and maybe something more after my situation changes. I realize it’s highly likely she would never be interested in me, or she could meet someone else or totally friendzone me. But I was willing to take a chance.
This sucks but I’ve learned a few things. Firstly, not to let limerence drive my communications with an LO. I shouldn’t have mentioned anything to her. But I think I’ve also learned some coping strategies that will hopefully make this LE shorter than previous ones. I keep on telling myself she doesn’t like me if she is avoiding me. It’s working. I’ve also found some ways to stop the rumination such as ensuring I’m completing work around other people so I’m not sitting alone with my thoughts of her. I also keep reminding myself there’s plenty of other fish in the sea, and how other women have shown interest in me in the past years, but I really need to focus on ending my marriage before I can really focus on anyone else.
One thing I forgot to mention about LO #3 is why I told her about my friend trying to play matchmaker for me. One night I saw her and she was not her usual self. She barely nodded to me when I walked in the bar and every time I looked at her to talk to her she looked away. That didn’t seem like her and I mentioned it to my friend (the “matchmaker”). He agreed but seemed a bit cagey about it. I ended up stewing about if for days and eventually reached out to LO #3. She denied that my friend ever said anything like that to her.
The next time I saw her it felt awkward for the first hour, but after that we were sitting together, chatting and laughing. She laughed at all of my dumb jokes, and she even asked me a few playful and funny questions about myself. By this time, I had admitted my attraction to her. She seemed totally fine with me and I thought we were cool, but since then she has never shown up to our nights out. She does check our group chats regularly (she didn’t before). At first, I thought maybe she liked me and wanted to hear what I had to say, but lately I’ve been thinking she lurks just so she can steer clear of me. Of course, it might just be my limerent brain thinking it’s about me (either positively or negatively) when it has nothing to do with me. She knows I like her and my marriage is completely on the rocks, but she also knows I won’t cheat or put her in an awkward position or insult her morals. My matchmaker friend has since told me she is a great lady, but that I shouldn’t be fixated on her and only her (I agree, and I also realize that even thinking about dating is 10 steps ahead of where I should be right now).
@Vicarious,
As a first point, I follow what others have said in the comments on the other post about not cheating and focusing on your separation and exit strategy first. So anything I say about your LO3 below is based on the idea of just keeping her in your life for now with respected boundaries.
There are any number of reasons why she could be keeping more distance. They could range all the way from “not interested” to “very interested but can’t entertain idea of getting involved with or hung up on a married man” – and everything between. She may also have other stuff going on in her life which means her absence from the social events is nothing to do with you, and she is just looking at group threads to keep up while she can’t come along (is she also attached?). I recognise the limerent brain “try to think this out to the answer”pattern from a mile off!
But – you won’t know which of these is true without either asking her yourself or getting the ‘meddler’ involved again. Both these options don’t seem good, can lead to unpredictable outcomes. What good outcome is there in your current situation?
So I would say the only thing to do is keep acting as you have been. Turn up to the group events. She will probably show up again eventually. Think how you want to act when she does and stay true to it as best you can. If she doesn’t show up, then you can take the ‘limerence management strategy’ benefit as you said. Not ideal, but something. Distract yourself with other things and other people like your friend suggests.
Hope some of this helps a bit. And also good luck with getting the separation and divorce sorted if it’s what you want – it sounds like you have given it time and thought it all through carefully.
Thanks Lim-a-rant. I agree that I just have to stay the course with LO #3. To my knowledge, she isn’t dating anyone right now, but that might have changed. She probably has a lot of suitors because she is beautiful and really nice. She is a very private person, despite being very easy to talk to and very funny (I love her infectious, cute, quirky laugh). I’m not even her Facebook friend since I know she is quite particular about who she accepts friend requests from, so I didn’t even ask. She is a bit shy and modest in some ways, and I think she is one of those beautiful women who doesn’t seem to know how beautiful she is. I really like that about her. If and when I see her again, I plan on being very friendly with her while ensuring I’m not being creepy or too clingy. There is that limerent tendency to assume the LO is thinking about us or we are driving their behaviours when their thoughts and actions have absolutely nothing to do with us. Her not coming out with us likely had nothing to do with me. It is encouraging how she checks the chats regularly now, and we got along so well the last time I saw her. She seemed completely invested in talking to me. I still remember the first night I noticed her. She really did seem to want me to talk to her that night, and I’m not the kind of guy who thinks every woman wants him. On the other hand, she probably was taken aback by my message telling her about my friend trying to be my matchmaker. She assured me he hadn’t said anything like that to her, and she told me a funny thing: that she wouldn’t say anything to encourage me or lead me on. Still, she knows I like her and that my marriage is totally on the rocks. Without saying anything directly, I did want her to know that I will likely be single in the not too distant future. This lady might be out of my league, but I would still love to be friends and see if there is a possibility of anything once my situation changes.
Vicarious, Gallant, I’ll be frank and to the point because I recognize the overanalyzing, I’ve been guilty if it too. And it’s frustrating to see that on other people. 😉 And at least Gallant didn’t mind my approach last time.
Listen: She wastes no time thinking about you! You are barely on her register. She has a life, she’s busy, maybe also busy thinking about some other dude. If she thought about you and was interested, it would be easy for her to let you know. You are probably leaking feelings all over the place, perhaps not even trying to be subtle about it.
Limerence is all in our heads. That’s all.
@Trifles, thank you for your alternate perspective. I do think these exact thoughts at times too. She likely doesn’t think about me much at all, but I also think she has solid morals and legitimately does want to avoid leading on a married man. But I’ll probably never know. Best to avoid ruminating about her so much! I know limerence tends to make us think everything is about LO, and that just isn’t healthy!
Vicarious
While I too don’t know if she maintains no contact (and I don’t see her at the job anymore either) for my “own good” or not. But I too know she was a woman of good morals. She always kept it pleasant but professional when I did work with her. But me maintaining the thought that she was/is protecting of myself doubles my effort to maintain no contact on my end as well and stay away from her social media. Let her live her life.
Morals are tricky. I like the fact that my LO has solid morals. I would think less of her if I found out otherwise (I’m not trying to offend anyone who’s actually had an affair because I do think everyone’s situation is different; it just isn’t right for me). But in order for our LOs to be with us or even engage in serious flirting, they have to compromise those morals that many of us find so appealing, thus making them less desirable in the process. It’s hard, but my situation is quite different from someone in a happy, healthy, committed relationship because I do want to end my marriage and become single in the not-too-distant future. Now is there an element of what Dr. L calls “rewriting history” with my marriage? Probably just a tiny bit, but I am very confident that the vast majority of my marital difficulties have nothing to do with limerence or any one specific LO. In the past few years, I’ve spent quite a bit of time outside limerence, and I still felt exactly the same way.
It’s been almost 5 years since my first LE as a married man. I discovered this site and community soon after. It has been a godsend to me and provided some wonderful support to me with my first two LOs (both the blog and the former private discussion forum). I met some great people, although many are no longer active here. I haven’t been on here at all in probably over two years for several reasons: (1) my work computer now blocks it; (2) I thought I had this limerence thing figured out; and (3) I found I was spending far too much time on here and it was actually negatively impacting my work performance. Going on here may have even reinforced my limerence in some ways. I am glad I came back, and I appreciate the advice and support. I will not be a stranger moving forward, particularly as I navigate the end of my marriage and this latest LE. But I’m going to step back for a while because I see some old habits returning. Thanks everyone!
Just a bit of an update…LO #3 is back in our group chats, commenting and everything. She is coming to a couple of our upcoming outings. I’m thrilled, but I’m trying not to read too much into it. I have wondered if she read my posts on this forum (which is highly unlikely since most people don’t even know what limerence is). I also thought maybe someone said something about me to her (either my matchmaker friend or a mutual female friend we have). But I actually think it has nothing to do with me. My spidey sense is telling me she might have been dating someone for a bit there. In any case, I’m happy, but I also still need to do something about my marriage after a couple of important milestones. I’m also getting back into fitness and weight loss in a big way again (limerence can be a powerful driver for self-improvement).
Hi all,
an update from me- soon finally to have the good-bye dinner for my LO and family- I‘ll be in town only for a short time this weekend and they will move house soon afterwards when I‘m away.
End of an era for me (and them) , for sure.
I‘m so accustomed now to push thoughts of him away and generally feel indifferent to him, which helped me to fight the now almost- dead limerence for him, but now I would like to acknowledge this good-bye properly.
I‘m a bit scared of staying in the learned indifferent mode for the whole last evening and afterwards regretting it. Or would I be in danger of sliding back when I let warmer thoughts enter my mind?
I don’t know. All has anyway cooled down, we still text frequently, but very superficial and not in any warm or special manner. There’s no question of seeing him alone before he leaves, nor do I even consider that. There will be a friend of them (and acquaintance of ours) at dinner who visits them on the only day we all can manage dinner, so everything will be even less intimate.
I‘ve got a very thoughtful goodbye gift for him, I’m quite proud of it but now a bit wary of giving it to him in front of this friend, but then I remind myself that all is aboveboard and ok to give it as a mere friend.
A quite big part of me just wants that evening to be over, give my gift, be appropriately nice to everyone and then be rid of the whole LE, having some sort of closure.
But I’m also a bit scared, having not seen him for a long time, that the whole indifference I worked so hard at is due to not seeing him and being distracted by a lot of work/new people and places, and all will rekindle when I see him, and the evening will be difficult and afterwards I‘ll feel bad for several reasons.
I‘ll see him for sure on a few occasions next year, and we won’t suddenly stop texting, but here I‘m also unsure in which manner to keep the texting up or not.
I know you cannot help me much here, I‘ll have to find out by myself, just wanted to air my (not very agonizing, but still present) anxiety about this good- bye somewhere…
Mila
From my experience with the last time I saw her I maybe can help.
When she called me two weeks before she was going to leave the job, I immediately put in for PTO for her last day. In those two weeks I spent time distancing myself by avoiding contact via phone or text but at the same time spent those two weeks trying to find her an appropriate going away gift. Something not too personal that I could give to any co-worker leaving not just her.
I got her a tumblr with gist of a message (I forget it exactly) “this place won’t be the same without you”, a key chain (she carried a backpack instead of a purse and she would hook key chains to the zippers) that said “co-workers can be replace but not friends” and finally a bracelet that said “be a pineapple, stand tall and wear a crown”. They all felt like an expression of friendship, and not the brain altering limerence.
The card which took the longest to find, as you wouldn’t believe how hard it is to find a going away co-worker card for a man to give to a woman that is appropriate. But I did finally find one. “You’re an awesome lady, keep that $hit up!” She told me that the gifts “pulled at her heart strings” and gave me a very kind and sad look. I gave it to her when everyone was elsewhere in the office. Unless she told anyone I gave her a gift no one was there to see it. I intended it to be that way. I didn’t want to make a scene and I didn’t want her to have an audience. I think that she appreciated that part.
Whether she gives any thought to those gifts or uses/wears them I don’t know. But she did seem to genuinely appreciate them, which is all I really wanted. I still have a letter from a gal (before I met Momma) that was a bit infatuated with me. Hey I didn’t look so half bad when I was young! 🙂 Sometimes it nice to remember someone by something special someone gives you. Like the mixtape Momma sent me when we were talking online in 1999. All country music. I didn’t like country music then. I appreciate it more now. That said this song on said tape will forever be one of my favorites. Momma said it applied because I would fall asleep talking to her on the phone.
When You Say Nothing At All — Alison Krauss
https://youtu.be/1SCOimBo5tg?si=BaWPWA4bW2Fo6oSX
Hi Adam,
Thanks for telling me about your experience. It proves that it will be a pleasant memory if I manage this good-bye in goodwill and warm feelings as it seems to because pleasant memory for you). I just don’t know if I‘ll manage that. That’s why I’m actually glad about my gift, it shows my friendship appropriately, I think, no matter how I will behave that evening 🙈
*„Seems to be a pleasant memory for you“
Mila
I think it worked well because I could have given the same exact gifts to any of the 6 gals that have came and left the job since I started. Because as my boss says “you really spoil all the girls”. Accounting (as I have done the job myself) can be thankless because most people take for granted what these ladies do until something goes wrong. As I say to my boss “a sale isn’t a sale until you get paid for it, and they are why we get paid for it.”
And yes it is a very pleasant memory on this side of limerence. It was the goodbye I had to say to a dear friend. In limerence it was a sad and depressing memory. But now I know it was a fork in the road for her to pursue a better life, and that makes me happy for her.
Hi Mila,
“It proves that it will be a pleasant memory if I manage this good-bye in goodwill and warm feelings as it seems to because pleasant memory for you).”
Mine isn’t even a “pleasant” memory. It’s just a blank. A period of my life that I look back on and think: Was I on drugs? 🙂 It all eventually fades to nothing.
Hi Marcia,
I didn’t mean the whole LE. I also have very bad memories of my LEs and especially for my first also this feeling „what the hell was I on?“ , but I meant only this specific moment when Adam gave her a nice gift as good-bye and she appreciated it. A little nice memory between the bad ones.
Adam,
„ And yes it is a very pleasant memory on this side of limerence. It was the goodbye I had to say to a dear friend. In limerence it was a sad and depressing memory. But now I know it was a fork in the road for her to pursue a better life, and that makes me happy for her.“
That’s exactly what I want, this kind of memory.
Mila,
“I didn’t mean the whole LE.”
I thought you were separating the LE from the longstanding friendship.
“I also have very bad memories of my LEs and especially for my first also this feeling „what the hell was I on?“ ”
So you have bad memories from previous LEs?
“A little nice memory between the bad ones.”
I guess I don’t want any memories of my last LE. Good or bad. The whole thing was a waste of time and energy. There’s nothing really to remember. Nothing really happened. He has no real significance in my life. Didn’t then; doesn’t now.
Marcia,
„ So you have bad memories from previous LEs?“
Well, mostly bad memories of how I behaved myself or what state I was in. My LOs mostly didn’t behave badly. I blamed them for this and that, but my worst memories are of myself.
I still have also good memories from every LE.
Mila,
“I still have also good memories from every LE.”
Did you date these LOs? I look at limerence that couldn’t or didn’t go anywhere as a waste of time. Getting all riled up for nothing.
Marcia,
I don’t count the limerent for my SO either. Only the LEs when I was already married. So I didn‘t date them. One is still my friend and the last one was my friend before, and I have good memories of connecting with them in a good way, laughing with them, sharing good times etc. They are people I appreciate in my life aside from limerence. Limerence was more something that threatened my real connection with them.
LO1 is different, I don’t like thinking of that time. There was mutual disclosure and following chaos, lots of hurt feelings etc., and he’s basically not a nice person, and I don’t want him in my life anymore. Still, we also had some good times together. Somewhere in the limerent mess there was always a spark of true connection for me, even there.
Maybe it’s easier to get rid of it when there isn’t, like it seems in your case.
Mila,
“Maybe it’s easier to get rid of it when there isn’t, like it seems in your case.”
I had a connection with some of them. Some of them I dated, but, as a general rule, I wanted more from them than they wanted from me. It was painful. That isn’t to say there were no positive memories, but they aren’t in my life now.
It’s that song “Need You Tonight” by INXS. “All you got is this moment …” 🙂 I think I’m going through a phase. I’m thinking of getting rid of old photos and mementos. I have a box of them. Family pics, pics from previous “eras” of my life. Or getting rid of most of them, since most of them I don’t even look at.
@Mila
“Maybe it’s easier to get rid of it when there isn’t, like it seems in your case.”
I didn’t understand what ‘it’ is you are referring to here? You mean the memories?
My own view is remain indifferent. The friendship will maintain over time beyond limerence if there is a genuine basis for it. More likely you will simply become indifferent at some point.
Generally i’m more on Team Marcia here. Limerence is the brain going haywire or deflecting other issues (trauma etc.), so by and large a waste of time. Having pleasant memories is a good goal, but we’ve presumably all had lots of friendships we could want to have pleasant memories of, we just don’t bother that much because they don’t mean very much anymore. Your goal should only ever be to stop yourself being limerent anymore, only then can you have true perspective on the friendship and whether it is something you really want to maintain. I think it is impossible to separate the limerence out and get a neutral view of how good your friendship really is.
With the perspective of time, I can say in 2 of my 3 LEs I was way over-invested in a friendship, seeing a connection that wasn’t there. I put a lot of thought into good disengagements but it was completely unnecessary, they simply didn’t care that much. In the other case LE ruined an early stage romance, and any possibility of an ongoing friendship with someone who I do think was/could have become a good friend, and I’ve carried a lot of regret around that. But the last time I saw them had nothing to do with that.
To change the perspective, do you have any other friends you no longer have much contact with, can you remember how it ‘ended’ and does it in anyway impact how you think of that person? I have moved a lot so have a lot of friendships I’ve left. I dont remember any of the last times I saw those people, and who I have kept in touch with has been completely independent of that last meeting. Over time I just genuinely missed their company etc.
Not every one ticks the same way, so if you answered yes to the questions above maybe you should be more open and friendly and it will help you feel at peace about the situation.
Hi Heebiejeebies,
„ I didn’t understand what ‘it’ is you are referring to here? You mean the memories?“
I meant the limerence for this person. I always had some sort of real connection to my past LOs and can still see/understand it, they are also still in my life (without me being limerent anymore)while Marcia (if i understand her right) didn’t have a real connection. Which makes it easier to forget about the whole episode,I guessed. Might not be true, though.
Thanks for your sound advice- the thing is, we had ten years of a good friendship without limerence, I think I have a good perspective on this friendship, and yes he cares and yes, it’s worth it. I just was in a limerent dreamland for a while that soured everything.
So I won’t strive to be indifferent, because I think it’s better to be warm now , and time and distance will do their bit to dilute our friendship anyway.
But I agree that last encounters don’t count much in the long run. Maybe that’s a good view of it that I‘ll adopt to take pressure and melancholy (both could reinforce any limerent residue) at bay.
Thank you!
Hi Marcia,
Just found your post about getting rid of old stuff.
Me, I hold on to memories, I love photos, old stuff from the kids, letters, diaries.. unfortunately a lot of that was destroyed when we had mildew in the cellar.
I don’t look at them often, but when I do, I love it. It gives me a feeling of my life, so many people, places.. I could live without too, as the mildew showed, but I still like it very much.
Mila
“I always had some sort of real connection to my past LOs and can still see/understand it, they are also still in my life (without me being limerent anymore)while Marcia (if i understand her right) didn’t have a real connection.”
I don’t know what you mean by “real connection”? If I took the limerence and all the feelings that go with it and the sex, if there was sex involved, off the table, was there still a friendship? No, I don’t think so. So if that’s what you mean, no, there wasn’t a real connection.
But at the time … I thought there was. I dated two LOs for several months, another was a serious relationship. At the time, it all felt BIG.
One did request to be a Facebook friend a few years ago. We hadn’t had any communication in over 10 years. I went back and forth with accepting it. Things hadn’t ended well and it took me a while to get over him, but then pride kicked in. I didn’t want him to think I was still mooning over him. I accepted it but never head another word from him and I didn’t reach out myself. So the worry was all for naught. It was during covid. I’m assuming he was bored and looking up exes.
@HeebieJeebies
” I think it is impossible to separate the limerence out and get a neutral view of how good your friendship really is”
Would you go with that even if the friendship had endured for close to a decade before the limerence started? This is my situation, and Mila’s as I understand it.
I believe it must be possible to kill the limerent craziness without throwing the friendship under the bus. But I could be wrong.
My friendship with LO2 is back to pre-limerence normal. It really is possible.
“I believe it must be possible to kill the limerent craziness without throwing the friendship under the bus. But I could be wrong.”
That all depends on how well you handle addiction. If I need to be sober I can. But I don’t drink anything. Not even one drink. Can you handle hanging outside the circle of limerence while the object of your limerent affection is right in front of you?
I know I couldn’t. I came to the realization that wanting a friendship is “just one drink” that would spiral me right back into limerence. Obviously it’s a person to person basis. But I think a lot of limerents downplay their susceptibility to falling down the rabbit hole to get a taste of that brain candy again by trying to be “just friends”.
Adam,
You have put everything in that reply so well, thank you.
The ‘just one drink?’ analogy is spot on. The answer at the moment is no, I can’t have ‘just one drink’ of LO without wanting the bottle. Whether I’ll ever get there I don’t know – I can’t see the route to it for now. There are a few stories on here (Lovisa, Mila notably) that give me hope of it, many more that say the opposite.
I think both these things at the same time: 1. the ‘friendship’ is different to many described on here. Hand on heart, I can say it wasn’t invented or contrived by my limerence. Though I can’t say that for directions it has gone in in more recent times; 2. Every limerent on LwL probably has their own justification (as part of bargaining) like I’ve just done!
So I thank you for asking the question.
I think your LO probably did you a favor (much as it won’t have seemed like it at the time, maybe) by getting with someone else and leaving your work. It allowed you to then start the recognition and healing process, if I have read your posts right? In a way, it removed ‘the bottle’. I don’t have those luxuries for now – I have ‘the bottle’ fairly constantly shoved under my nose. I drink bits from it without ever drinking the lot, but its not easy. The only way I could stop that is to say to her “take that bottle away, i don’t want it there anymore” and then be forced to say why. Or perhaps decline drinking from it enough times that she gets the message. I’m not trying to seem hard done by – I still accept that it’s my responsibility whether I drink from it or not, and take the consequences of my decisions.
Heebie Jebbies,
“Your goal should only ever be to stop yourself being limerent anymore”
That’s exactly what I meant. The goal should be indifference in terms of limerence. It’s what Speedwagon described on a post about a woman he dated who he was limerent for before he met his wife. You get to the point where just don’t give a s**t about them anymore. If you ran into them, you could have a superficial conversation, but you realize the limerent response to them was a trauma response or had something to do with you and who you were at that time of your life. Limerence is not a good response to someone, and you have no interest in revisiting that feeling.
“I think it is impossible to separate the limerence out and get a neutral view of how good your friendship really is.”
I agree. The quality of the friendship is a totally separate issue that probably can’t be assessed until the limerence is dead. Chances are, while limerent, the friendship has seemed closer and more valuable than it is. Is this truly a lifelong good friend? Possibly, although those kinds of friends are rare.
@lim-a-rant (and @Mila)
I have to be careful what I say here, as I have never had limerent feelings for someone who was first a friend. So correct, you caught me on that one, maybe I was too absolute. Only you guys can know how real that friendship was. What I would argue is that in Limerence we see the past through ‘something’-tinted glasses. I recently went through old message logs with LO2 when the limerence reared it’s ugly head again, and saw that I had clearly mis-interpreted our conversations. If anything, I was actually too negative about the situation, but what is clear to me was that my judgement was completely impaired.
The one thing I am clear about with the perspective of time is that I really regret that we didn’t become friends, and not because of limerence, there were a lot of reasons to be friends. The reasons it didn’t work were not down to us or limerence. However, I am also aware that intensity of the pain I feel about that is limerence, not normal feelings about the loss of friendship, if that makes sense. That’s where I am coming from. Friends come, friends go, even the best of them, but if you can save your friendships, good luck!
@adam
the reminder of the addiction link is useful. I was thinking about my dad’s type of alcoholism the other day and pondering if it drove my tendency to limerence, but i hadn’t thought about it as a framework to understand the limerence itself.
I wonder if it is maybe a useful way to think about limerence
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6876530/
https://www.freedomaddiction.ca/blog/what-are-the-types-of-alcoholism/
A long way round of saying there are many types of non one-drink addicts.
There has also been a very thoughtful discussion of acoholism in recent years in the UK led by y football presenter of all people, Adrien Chiles
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/12/moderation-or-total-abstinence-adrian-chiles-and-john-robins-talk-honestly-about-their-drinking
The on-switch, off-switch focus also seems maybe useful. I feel like some people’s on switches with limerence are very weak. Myself I feel like it is pretty strong, it rarely happens, but my off switch is weak as hell….
@HeebieJeebies,
It’s really good to have your perspective on it – thanks for debating it with us. I was/am undecided about what I wrote in my previous comment to you about whether pre-limerence friendships are different.
“Only you guys can know how real that friendship was. What I would argue is that in Limerence we see the past through ‘something’-tinted glasses”
I totally take that on board. It’s something I’m wondering about LO – do I see the pre-limerence friendship through tinted glasses as you suggest? (almost certainly yes). Do LO and I have the ability and enthusiasm to maintain an ongoing friendship after limerence? (Only half that answer is in my control, and if honest, I won’t be able to answer it while still in limerence). Would it be the same as the friendship before it? (Almost certainly not). So the priority is to de-escalate the limerence and not try and conflate the friendship, or its future prospects, with that. The real person behind ‘LO’, and the limerence, need separating out to even begin to know.
“The one thing I am clear about with the perspective of time is that I really regret that we didn’t become friends, and not because of limerence, there were a lot of reasons to be friends – However, I am also aware that intensity of the pain I feel about that is limerence, not normal feelings about the loss of friendship, if that makes sense”
Makes total sense! I’m really sorry that this one didn’t work out for you and that you still regret that and have a lot of feelings about it. Hopefully it can help you know how to handle other situations moving forwards. It’s such a tough game to play when both things get confused.
Heebie Jeebies,
„ What I would argue is that in Limerence we see the past through ‘something’-tinted glasses. I recently went through old message logs with LO2 when the limerence reared it’s ugly head again, and saw that I had clearly mis-interpreted our conversations“
Absolutely spot on here.
That’s what I mean by limerence messing up my friendship. Suddenly everything seems more meaningful, or needs interpretation in this or that direction, and reactions to everything change, thus interaction and the whole relationship changes.
“Developmentally limited alcoholism is characterized by frequent heavy drinking in late adolescence that tends to remit to social drinking after the individual successfully assumes adult responsibilities, such as a career and a family.”
HeebieJeebies
This is basically what happened. I was easily able to obtain alcohol even before being legal. And when I turned 21 it went crazy out of hand excessive really fast. If I wasn’t at work or asleep I was drunk. I drank and drove. Drank while driving. And it really never came back down to not being life threatening until I met my wife and got married. She very well could be the only reason I am alive now.
I would say of the 5 types, I am a Delta. It seems the most familiar. As far as I have observed I don’t have withdraws symptoms (physical that is at least) but I do find rationalization in having a drink before I do something. Or have someone on hand to drive me if I know I need more than one drink. Like I stayed sober until after church Sunday but had no motivation to NOT drink when I got home because I had nowhere else to go. Outside of caring for my responsibilities there’s no desire to NOT drink.
The Guardian article you posted was really helpful. One of my fears of my drinking it that there is no other way for me than complete sobriety. Particularly this …
“If I was stranded on a desert island and there was one can of Guinness on there, it would still be there the day I was rescued. Because the idea of drinking one can would be horrible, I would be in such a state.”
I’m deathly afraid of sobriety but also afraid of not being able to reach the state of intoxication I want and would opt to stay sober. But I am afraid of world where I can’t get to the state of intoxication at some point. I split a 6 pack of beer with my son’s roommate last time I visited them. I was okay with that (not only because I had to drive) but because I knew I had vodka at home.
Now if for whatever reason I can’t/don’t have something to drink, that is when I scare myself. And I am sure that has to do with the physical dependency on alcohol. But that hasn’t happened in a long time because for the most part if I had to go without it was for financial reasons.
But thanks for taking the time to post all the links and ponder on them. Alcoholic? Or heavy drinker? More like what I hear “Watch it Adam can drink you under the table.” It overwhelming how much alcohol is integrated into Western culture.
“She told me that the gifts “pulled at her heart strings” and gave me a very kind and sad look. I gave it to her when everyone was elsewhere in the office”
I met Lady Friend out at her car one night before work. She asked me to hop in, which was perfect because I wanted to give her some personalized key chains I had made for her, since she became a first time Aunt last month. I had them engraved with “Worlds Best Auntie” and Babys name. She gave me that very same kind and sad look when she opened them. Like she could have melted right then and there. I could tell she wanted to hug me but was hesitant. She just kept thanking me and telling me it was so nice of me to do that. Like one of the nicest things anyone has ever done for her.
I felt elated about it but it made me wonder why or how nobody else in this world could think to be so kind to someone like her, like that. How is that even possible? She is so sweet and so nice. Like so cute at times, I could just melt..
One of the keychains, she put on her keyrings and the other she hung from her mirror. I like to think she thinks of me everytime she looks at it. Like a part of me is always there with her. A friendly reminder of how I would love to be “her” guy..
MJ,
“it made me wonder why or how nobody else in this world could think to be so kind to someone like her, like that. How is that even possible?”
I have seen similar reactions from LO when I have performed the odd ‘random’ (of course not really random, but not big deals either) act of kindness. Reactions that said – sometimes in as many words – “no-one else ever does this for me”.
It does make you wonder why, doesn’t it? Is it our rose tinted limerent-addled spectacles again? Hard as I try, I can’t think why my LO isn’t worth this sort of treatment from someone else – preferably for her someone who is actually available and could make her happy. It’s the least she deserves for the person she is, or the version that she presents to me anyway.
I’m glad Lady Friend liked the gifts, didn’t seem freaked out by them, and that all seems well for you and her from bits you’re saying.
Aww… 🤗 Would anyone say who received this kind of attention! And then you guys wonder why your LO’s keep you around..! (Give you mixed signals so to say)
No, it’s not common to get such thoughtful gifts, except from a lover in the beginning stages of a relationship – or from a very good girlfriend. (At least not in my circles!)
The receiver knows that even the act of getting someone a gift (any gift) requires planning – not to mention a thoughtful gift that might have required some customization.
That said, MJ you have definitely raised the bar for my transferee! 😜 My birthday is coming up and he has said he wants to get me a gift, though I’m assuming it’s digital (or delivered digitally) because he doesn’t have my home address…
I’ll help Trifles here on being harsh, as she seems to be going soft 😉
I’m sure there are lots of people you (or Lim-a-Rant) could give these gifts too, why is your LO more deserving than others? Because you want something in return. It is genuinely that straight forward, but that doesn’t make it wrong. Whether it’s a bad wooing tactic is something that fills the pages of the internet to an inordinate degree….. but I’m in camp (genuinely) nice guys win marathons, chads win 100m races, and life is an ultra…..
I’m guessing she looks sad because she wishes she would reciprocate your feelings as strongly as you are signalling yours, but either she doesn’t, she doesn’t enough, or she does but sees barriers that she considers insurmountable. Given your situation, there clearly are some barriers, so it could be any of the above.
That said, you seem to be playing a bad hand well so far, but you are going to have to get your timing right. Good luck!
MJ
I am glad that Lady Friend liked your gift to her. It was very thoughtful of you. Being an Aunt is a nice milestone. Well I guess, I dunno I am only an Uncle to one. And while I see him very seldom (they live in another state) my sister in law always tells me that she likes that I call my nephew “son”.
I think that, despite that I agree with Heebie jeebies (when it comes to LOs), it was a genuine act of generosity getting Lady Friend such a specialized gift for her.
As far as LOs go, gifts are a mixed bag. While my gift to her on her last day was genuine, in that I really wanted to express my feelings about her departure, they were also simultaneously a last ditch effort to see if I could get her to stay. I never outright said it to her but probably every act on my part, including taking PTO to be there, was a cry out to stay.
I remember in the span of when she called me to tell me she was leaving and her last day, I drunk text my other female co-worker asking her “why I couldn’t make it right so she would stay at the job” and she gave me a solid, logically and cohesive response that normally I would agree with, but limerent brain threw a tantrum because it wasn’t what it wanted to hear.
But I do feel that your budding relationship with Lady Friend has a lot of promise and I hope that you can pursue it. If she isn’t paying the age gap any attention than you don’t have to worry about it. Good luck with her my friend.
Heebie Jeebies, you caught me! I was in fact in quite a soft mood this morning. Thoughtful gifts get to me – and I was also simultaneously consoling my transferee about an issue he was having. 🙈 But I agree wholeheartedly with what you said, I just wasn’t able to formulate it into my response. Yes, subconsciously (or consciously) when we give our LO’s gifts, we expect something in return. Some kind of goodwill if nothing else. To MJ’s defense, he wasn’t trying to hide that from us.
Also the sad look, ditto. That is exactly the look I would give someone who was so sweet but who I couldn’t reciprocate feelings for. The reason for not reciprocating could be anything.
But in MJ’s case (they’re both unattached) you certainly can’t fault a guy for trying. 👍🏻 I commend that and wish MJ the best!
Thank you LaR, Trifles, Heebie Jeebies, Adam.
I appreciate your words and support. This forum continues to prove its worth to me, in more ways than one, all the time.
As much as I am trying to do everything in my power to not become limerent for this Woman, there have been times these last few weeks where I have felt glimmer coming on. Or so it seems. I’m trying hard to fight it. This Woman is amazing to me though and there are times our conversations become so pleasant and warm, I feel as if I’ve known her for years. I’ve tried telling her that. (Without actually telling her that.)
I’m pretty sure she gets my angle and I’m also pretty sure she really enjoys the attention.
HeebsJeebs, you hit the nail on the head because I do know there are barriers here. She is by her own volition, making herself unavailable because she will not meet me after work for a drink or meet up on the weekend. I ask nicely but I don’t ever beg.. I just suggest she should meet up with me, because I want to genuinely keep getting to know her better, and NOT trying to be the average guy that talks with her and probably just wants to get in her pants.
Lately without going into any real detail, she’s mentioned her Ex coming around again and it’s been messing with her emotions big time. She’s come to work frazzled, irritated and tired from lack of sleep. She doesn’t give exclusive details but I know they have a long past together. She becomes vague talking about him and says it’s personal, but I can’t help but think thats just her way of trying to shield from hurting me, because I feel like I’m doing all the right things for her, but she still has feelings for her Ex. I get it.. I think..
I try to be nothing but her oasis if she needs or wants to talk. Which usually just ends up her telling me about her night with her Sister and the Baby. If she’s not with her, then her and her Mom hang out and watch movies or go to the Beach. If her Ex is hanging around in any of those scenes, she’s definitely not telling me about him.
Basically I feel good about our friendship and I’m elated to be in a more realistic place than I ever was with LO. I feel like we’re definitely going to have a deeper sit-down at some point about stuff but I’m really not going to push any agenda until she’s ready. It’s much easier and less stressful on my own emotions if I tell myself, she’s in control here. That seems to really help keeping myself contained and centered when I am around her.
Btw LaR,
Loved this comment,
“It does make you wonder why, doesn’t it? Is it our rose tinted limerent-addled spectacles again?”
🤓🥰=How I feel.. 😂
@Trifles
“And then you guys wonder why your LO’s keep you around..! (Give you mixed signals so to say)”
This had me in stitches (all be it the kind of “hang your head in shame ” stitches). Have only ever ‘gifted’ at typical moments like birthdays, but if i think my pretty perceptive LO doesn’t understand the deeper meaning, I am probably deluding myself, right?
Well said anyway. Transferee has a high bar to live up to now.
Lovisa,
You give me hope here, thank you. The thought that I have to chuck it all away to get past the limerence is just too much, for the time being at least.
Lovisa,
(I posted a duplicate reply in wrong place)
You give me hope here, thank you. The thought that I have to chuck it all away to get past the limerence is just too much, for the time being at least.
Hi Mila,
So glad to see you on the “stage”, I was feeling “stranded” here monologuing…
Not sure if you followed my discussion with LaR and Bewitched: LE emotions and thoughts are better to be observed with calmness and without “mighty” fighting against them. Your “forced” indifference is worrisome to me, because “pushing thoughts of him away” would reinforce them in your subconscious, and they are more likely come back, even stronger. This was proved in your case in the past few months….
Your own worries about “sliding back” is very reasonable. I understand your eagerness to end this LE — the hardest thing to end for us limerents; but patient and peaceful staying with your ebbing thoughts and emotions would work more effectively (though slower) in a long run, IMO. Bewitched’s treatment of her LE has proved my point.
I’ve got to run now. Wish you a great luck in your farewell dinner party with your MFF; I’m proud of your self-made gracious gift and mental preparation for it.
🫂
Hi Snow,
it was a bit more complex than pushing or forcing thoughts. I realized the difference between my LO how I saw him with limerent eyes and his meaning for me, and the reality of his person. To maintain the open-eyed view, I had to stop the somewhat automatic limerent thoughts I had trained onto myself. I think that’s not the same as simply forcing myself not to think of him.
It was the right thing to let it all flow through me at some time, but we should keep in mind that many of the“ thoughts/feelings“ are limerent pathways that we trained on ourselves and the brain follows them (so to say brainlessly) over and over again. If we keep following them under the flag of staying with our emotions, they might reinforce themselves over and over again.
That‘s what I wanted to stop. But in the course of that, I surely forced the real friendly and loving feelings for his real person back, too. I just don’t know know how that could have been avoided.
I think you have a point, but simply letting it all go as it wants, is not the whole solution either.
Bewitched, does this mean, you are out of your LE? Sorry,haven’t been following all posts, but Snow sets you up as good example, so it sounds as if you managed it?
You are right that my subdued limerence broke out again and again, but if you see the whole picture, it was a way forward. I made a lot of progress and didn’t have to force myself not to think of him in the last weeks, I just simply didn’t think of him, and I’m very sure this is how it will be all the time once he‘s out of sight.
No, this is the end anyway, I just want to end it with style and with heart and soul, but without regressing- as always, that means balancing on a fine line and nothing is just black or white..
Thank you for your advice and good wishes!
@Mila,
“it was a bit more complex than pushing or forcing thoughts. I realized the difference between my LO how I saw him with limerent eyes and his meaning for me, and the reality of his person. To maintain the open-eyed view, I had to stop the somewhat automatic limerent thoughts I had trained onto myself. I think that’s not the same as simply forcing myself not to think of him.”
I kind of understand what you’re saying; but since I was never in your shoes, I have to ask: what are your specific limerent thoughts on LO, compared to your friendship ones on him? What’s “his meaning” for you in LE and in friendship? When he pops into your head, does your executive mind (Zeus/Ego) clearly separate these two to you?
“It was the right thing to let it all flow through me at some time, but we should keep in mind that many of the“ thoughts/feelings“ are limerent pathways that we trained on ourselves and the brain follows them (so to say brainlessly) over and over again. “
To let LE thoughts and emotion “flow through” and eventually die is every limerent’s goal here; however, as every ghost has reported, they just die hard (in 25 yrs…) due to our habitual, “trained limerent pathways”… Still, we have been in LwL over a while, and more aware of and equipped with LwL wisdom; our old LE “trained limerent pathways” are exposed and pushed to the front of our consciousness, so our LE thoughts/emotions cannot just slip into our mind habitually or automatically.
“If we keep following them under the flag of staying with our emotions, they might reinforce themselves over and over again.”
To ME, there is a BIG difference between “follow” and “stay with” during our reflection of meditation. The former lead our thoughts to following LE’s positive, sweetthoughts/memories, or trying to push away unpleasant thoughts/memories; the latter WATCH them without FOLLOWING. One example (I learned from Vipassana 10-day silence retreat): When p/n (positive/negative) thoughts arrive/pop in, you say, “Ah, you (Aphrodite or Hera) are here again! Who has brought you here today, and what do you want?…[then dig deeper for some answers]… I see/understand now (Zeus)… or I hear you(Zeus), but I (Zeus) cannot give what you want, because (Athena)…. I know it’s unfair/sad, but I (Zeus) am unable change the situation (external uncontrollable)…” By doing this, your mind is not actively resisting/fighting or following/embracing ideas, but only acknowledging and reasoning with them, thus distancing your cognitive thinking from them, which then would ease/undermine your emotions aroused by the said “intrusions”.
“That‘s what I wanted to stop. But in the course of that, I surely forced the real friendly and loving feelings for his real person back, too. I just don’t know how that could have been avoided.”
You and your MFF were friends for ten years before this LE, why would you want to avoid “the real friendly and loving feelings for his real person”? I thought you’d want to keep them ideally, as you expressed do. Again the challenge is how to separate MFF from LO in the same person and keep the friendship and kill LE? I have no answers here; perhaps some enlightened, former limerents (if still here) could tell us?
“I think you have a point, but simply letting it all go as it wants, is not the whole solution either.”
I see that I did not make myself clear in my previous post. “Letting it all go as it wants” was not my point. As discussed with LaR and Bewitched, it’s “watching it without resisting or indulging it.” Based on Bewtiched’s posts, I think she has become a lot calmer in her LE after not making active efforts to resist or push away LO-related thoughts. It’s a tougher situation for both her and LaR, since their LO is still in their professional life regularly, unlike ours.
“You are right that my subdued limerence broke out again and again, but if you see the whole picture, it was a way forward. “
Yes, your posts have shown your gradual progress, I’m happy for you!
“I made a lot of progress and didn’t have to force myself not to think of him in the last weeks, I just simply didn’t think of him, and I’m very sure this is how it will be all the time once he‘s out of sight.”
“Very Sure”? Sorry to say (as a pessimistic 50% of Stoic), expecting LO out of limerent mind “all the time” once s/he is “out of sight” is liking expecting the Moon would disappear since one can’t see it in the daytime. How many months/years LOs have lived in some limerents’ head? What would have made your case an exception, particularly if your LO was a good friend beforehand?
“No, this is the end anyway, I just want to end it with style and with heart and soul, but without regressing- as always, that means balancing on a fine line and nothing is just black or white….”
Yes, it’s the end of facing/dealing with the “realistic”, physical LO regularly, and you’re bidding him a farewell with style, heart, and soul. But whether LE will regress or not, only time can tell. You CANNOT predict it yet, just like an expecting mother can’t predict what her first birthing experience would feel like.
Please be prepared for all sorts of “post”-LE unknown pains; your internal life will change in a couple of weeks… All my good wishes for you, Mila!
Hi Snow,
Thanks for answer and questions!
The difference is that when limerent, I suddenly invested my LO with all sorts of qualities, sensitivity, knowledge of my desires, having the same desires etc, and the power to make me feel good and wanted. When he didn’t give me this feeling I was so or angry, but he simply wasn’t the person I suddenly thought he was because my limerence craved such a person in my life. My real friend was under this picture all the time and my real friendship too. Very hard to separate it all, it’s true.
Well, I assure you that I won’t let my limerent thoughts flow through me for 25years;)
I think time and distance and life going on with new people and interests all the time will do their thing, now that he‘s not a part of daily life anymore. It might take a while, but not overlong, I guess.
I don’t meditate and am not a Stoic, I struggle with just watching emotions flow by, but I got better in identifying them and sorting them.
I think I’m on a good path after all.
My current LO won’t leave my head or life ever for ever, but he‘ll be in a modest, well-tolerated place as a friend, as is my LO2. It helps enormously that both left town. I‘m not the type to pine for someone I hardly ever see and who isn’t in my life regularly.
Thanks for your input!
I‘m quite calm and ok now.
@Mila,
With your explanation, I understand your 🧠 better. Thanks.
“…I suddenly invested my LO with all sorts of qualities, sensitivity, knowledge of my desires, having the same desires etc, and the power to make me feel good and wanted. When he didn’t give me this feeling I was sad or angry, but he simply wasn’t the person I suddenly thought he was because my limerence craved such a person in my life.” Most limerents ghosts here can relate so well to what you’ve just said!
“ I think time and distance and life going on with new people and interests all the time will do their thing, now that he‘s not a part of daily life anymore. It might take a while, but not overlong, I guess.”
I know you’re right here, because it happened to me before. The quite painful LE #4.5 (long distance) lasted about one year. Then, I forced myself into a couple of dating sites — meeting up new guys every week was certainly a big distraction, but a quite wrong one for me — I simply could/can not enjoy casual hookups, no glimmer ever came from those app.-men, no matter how gorgeous they were!
“Meditation” is not necessarily sitting with one’s legs crossed and eyes shot, it just means giving a very mindful/focused attention to intrusive thoughts, to see from where they could have come. It can be done in shower or in subway, for any length of time — 1 to 30 minutes (cannot be 2 hours even for a “dying” limterent? 😊)
Being Stoic means to me that one prepares for (or assumes the worst will take place) all possible negative possibilities and has Plan B and C in place, while continuing the pursuit with Plan A. I’m only 50% Stoic so I still held onto a bit of “useless” hope, about 1-2%, such as for my new class in a new, 4 times bigger HE institute before last Sunday.
“I got better in identifying them and sorting them.
I think I’m on a good path after all.
My current LO won’t leave my head or life ever for ever, but he‘ll be in a modest, well-tolerated place as a friend, as is my LO2.”
You (and Bewitched) sound like on a very good path moving forward, with your increasing LwL awareness in what’s going on in and around you, which have already helped and will continue assisting you in wisely navigating through more potential LO filled mines. I have faith in you, more than in myself… ☺️
I think here is where you stand —
Near Spring Equinox
Jeanetta Calhoun Mish
A ruby crocus near the porch sends up
hope—winter of sorrow is waning
the dire moon of almost-spring rises
full with promise of renewal,
shaming twinkling city lights in its splendor.
I search for my faith, wonder where
I lost it, find it in deep cinnamon
mud smushing up between my toes.
Across a spent field, a lake in shadow
serenades curvature of earth.
As if on cue, a comet streaks
across somber roiling river of sky.
***
Enjoy your supper, not last, with your MFF and other friend!
Hi Snow,
Thanks for your encouraging words, I‘m a person who is influenced by them much more than by critics because I criticize myself all the time, and that’s also why I write some of the stuff here kind of for myself, to give myself encouraging words…
I had the farewell dinner last night, still let it settle in my mind, nothing unpredictable happened, I’m just still sorting through my mind what’s going on there.
I wish you all the best for the new start in the new season, very happy for you.
Good luck Mila!
The only comment I have relates to gifts. Some gifts are benign, some aren’t. Something like an Amazon gift card are benign. When they’re gone, they’re gone.
A gift that reminds your LO of a project that you worked on together or an inside joke that you shared and will remind your LO of you really isn’t.
I gave LO #4 at least two gifts that while totally above board, were very personal. I told my wife that I was sending one of them as a thank you for LO #4 acting as an unpaid second opinion on the treatment plan for our son. My wife didn’t have a problem with that. It was a book by a cartoonist that LO #4 and I shared a common interest in. For an extra fee, the author would include a personal sketch on the inside cover. I sent him a picture of LO #4 from her website and told him how I wanted it sketched in. I didn’t tell my wife about that part. I also sent her a coffee mug illustrated by the same guy that I thought would appeal to her. My wife didn’t know anything about that. At the height of my LE/EA, I was way out of line.
I don’t know if LO #4 kept them or purged them when we said goodbye. If she kept them, she’ll always remember who they came from.
[OT note: when I asked her where to send them, LO #4 had me send them to her mother. The only reasons I can think of for her doing that was that she either didn’t want me to know where she lived or she didn’t want her BF to get the mail, ask who the hell I was, and ask what was in it. A package coming from her mother wouldn’t arouse suspicion. Considering that after she moved out, LO #4 gave me her new address, I tilt toward the latter. LO #4 and I had an interesting set of boundaries in play.]
That’s leaving a legacy. That’s ok as long as you accept it for what it is and don’t try to rationalize you’re way out of it.
Legacies are a topic unto themself.
Hi LE,
I think my gift is genuinely ok.
Don’t forget that we‘ve got ten years of limerence-free friendship and work behind us. It’s purely a reminder of that, and I have no qualms about giving him in front of his SO (I already showed it to my SO). I even think that his SO might even like it too, only if she suspects (and I think she does) that there was a bit more than friendship in the air between us, will she not like the effort I put in, and that it’s a gift only for him and not for the whole family.
But in reality, he and not she is /was my friend and she knows it, and I think it‘s the „good“, the „only friends“ side of me who made it, and that’s why I don’t really care what she might think about it as long as my conscience is clear about it.
But thanks for that, it made me search my mind and feel better now about my motives because I do think they are ok. I think our being very well matched work colleagues and work friends for ten years is worth leaving a bit of a legacy.
Very creative gifts, by the way, LE!
I‘m sure she was happy to get them. I think for that moment it was ok to make her happy. And it’s not such a bad thing to remember you by it, as long as it is only a memory, and maybe in this case a happy one.
Hey Mila,
I have been thinking about you and how you must be doing well (following your happy holiday message). I have been on here less myself as I have not felt as needy recently.
In response to your question, I would say that I am much recovered. How much, I do not know but it has been lasting since I saw him in early Summer. After that f2f, I got to a happier place and just stopped fretting so much. I decided not to worry about what he thought any more and I found this incredibly freeing. It’s meant that I have been thinking about him less in general. It might just have been time for limerence to fade after all these years. Ornit might have been the conscious decision to “let go” of it. For me, that mainly was just letting go of caring what he thought. It’s been nice to have my mind back!
You will be absolutely fine this weekend. Remember you gave me advice before “my dinner” to just try and enjoy everyone’s company and stay away from LO if he stressed me out? Well, maybe you can try your own advice. If (like me) you are likely to cross paths again in future, maybe tell yourself that this is not the ‘last supper’, to take the pressure off.
Big Hugs!!
Hi Bewitched,
It’s good to hear that you are out of the jungle.
Sometimes it’s a really simple thing that clicks, like deciding to stop caring so much what he thinks.
I‘ll try and do both- heed your advice and not get stressed about it being the last time, but at the same time being aware that it’s the last time and time to put all selfish limerence aside and just say goodbye properly. I don’t think I want to avoid him this time because I‘ll regret it later.
I‘ll just try to forget about limerence and just be nice and attentive to my guests and my old friend.
I think we made good progress in the last months, Bewitched, don’t you? We can be proud of ourselves, maybe only tentatively, but why not!
Hey Mila,
“I‘ll just try to forget about limerence and just be nice and attentive to my guests and my old friend.”
Yes. This sounds a perfect plan. As well as stopping caring so much, one thing that left me in a better place recently was the fact that my final encounter was so warm. This is to be recommended, I think. By doing this, you won’t slide back I think, because you are too far along the path now. You’ve made your peace with it already.
“I think we made good progress in the last months, Bewitched, don’t you? We can be proud of ourselves, maybe only tentatively, but why not!”
We sure did. We sure made progress. It was very circuitous but it was slowly going somewhere. Both of us are probably going to encounter these LOs again in future and they are neither of them bad guys, at all, they are nice. And we are nice. It’s such a relief to be back to normality – and I say this as someone who mainlined the intensity for years. I was self medicating on the intensity and it was so nice that I worried how life would turn grey after that stopped. But it hasn’t. I just feel mostly happy to have my brain and my mind back 🤕🤕🤕
I hope you feel better too…
Hi Bewitched,
that’s what I experienced even during limerence- when the last parting was warm, my mind was more at peace. I just buried the warm feelings so much that I‘m not sure I can get them all out for this evening.
We‘ll see!
Yes, I seem out of the woods for this LE, and I‘m happy for you to have your brain back!
With me, the challenge will be not to slide into another LE. I seem to be addicted to a certain kind of excitement that the first time of an LE brings, and used to distract and occupy my mind with LOs.
I already encountered another glimmering guy a few weeks ago who seemed to feel the glimmer too, but managed to stop it all on time.
I think I‘m finally in a state of mind where I detect the false shine of limerence immediately and can decide to stop.
I just hope I’m not praising myself too early here.
Hi Mila,
Glad you enjoyed your holidays
The gift side has been well covered by others (I could go further into some of my earlier-LE foolery there, but will spare you). So all I want to add is to circle back to what I said before, at the point of the previous cancelled ‘last supper’. In short – having the goodbye warm, as you want it, might be the best way to a clear head moving forward after he goes. If you want the friendship to be the thing intact after LE, well, you’d want to give an old friend a warm goodbye.
I think, from what I read, you have done the hard yards over many months to tamp down the LE to a much more manageable level now, almost looking back on it. That work shouldn’t be lost by a warm farewell. It could set you back a little, but not a lot. The temporary negatives from a setback (if it even happens) might well be less painful and intrusive than the pain and intrusion if the farewell is cold and you beat yourself up for it afterwards.
Hope that makes some sense and that all works out well!
Hi Lim-a-rant,
I think you speak very true words here. I shouldn’t be too afraid of a warm goodbye since I’m in such a good place, and you are right in saying that it will vex me much more and even rekindle the limerence when I‘ll be cold and regret it later.
Thanks for that wise input, also to Bewitched, Snow, Marcia, Adam, you are always so helpful.
Its coffeehouse so I can go off handle ….
“I need you to be rescued. I couldn’t save Nicole but I can save you Ellie. So … uhh … bye” (Dead Space 2)
I hate every time I play this game this scene gets me. He sacrifices his chances of survival by insuring Ellie makes it out alive and gets rescued.
I wasn’t there to rescue Momma. I wasn’t there to rescue her.
For those ladies rolling their eyes (probably Miss Marcia 🙂 ) Ellie swings back into the complex with the shuttle and saves Issac’s ass. Go Ellen Ripley!
Adam,
“For those ladies rolling their eyes (probably Miss Marcia 🙂 ) Ellie swings back into the complex with the shuttle and saves Issac’s ass. Go Ellen Ripley!”
What movie are you talking about? “Alien”? Ain’t nobody have to save Ellen Ripley! She can save herself. She ain’t no “damsel in distress” … and, yes, I’m rolling my eyes. Cliche. Table for ten dudes. 🙂
@Marcia,
I think he’s playing a video game. Probably with his Son..
😂😂
Yes Miss Marcia thats my point. Ripley in Alien and Ellie in Dead Space 2 didn’t need saving. But Issac in his guilt not being able to save Nicole (his finance) transferred that to Ellie.
https://youtu.be/YKF71MYAKQM?si=T_YWhB-QMARAs60u
Adam,
“Yes Miss Marcia thats my point. Ripley in Alien and Ellie in Dead Space 2 didn’t need saving. ”
Ah, I didn’t know you were referring to a video game … ‘Cause I’m a girl. And I’m kinda hip. 🙂
Another video game scene that breaks me.
Gears of War 2
After years (in the first game) of searching for his missing wife he finds her finally.
https://youtu.be/TYeU2JYAgJQ?si=qp1Eqq2cyqWF5ML-
Adam,
“Another video game scene that breaks me. Gears of War 2
After years (in the first game) of searching for his missing wife he finds her finally. ”
https://youtu.be/TYeU2JYAgJQ?si=qp1Eqq2cyqWF5ML-
Who is this for? MJ? Because Marcia does not watch video games. Ever. 🙂
It might be @Marcia,
Cause I’m a guy, And I’m kinda hip. 🙂
MJ,
“It might be @Marcia,”
No. I don’t live in my parents’ basement. 🙂
“No. I don’t live in my parents’ basement. 🙂”
Neither do I @Marcia, but don’t go thinking I live in a van, down by the river either.. 🤣
MJ,
“@Marcia, but don’t go thinking I live in a van, down by the river either.. 🤣”
I’m too young to understand that reference. I’m like your other babes. I’m only 28. 🙂
“I’m too young to understand that reference. I’m like your other babes. I’m only 28. 🙂”
Lmao, so how come you haven’t given me your number then?? 🤣
MJ,
“Lmao, so how come you haven’t given me your number then?? 🤣”
Cause I’m like you. I like ’em young. 18-21. When they hit 22, I get a new one. 🙂
“Cause I’m like you. I like ’em young. 18-21. When they hit 22, I get a new one. 🙂”
Why you gotta make it sound so pervy @Marcia?? I don’t roll like that. I’m the Cool Old Dude at work, that all the ladies swoon over.. 😇
MJ,
“I don’t roll like that. I’m the Cool Old Dude at work, that all the ladies swoon over.. 😇”
“Cool” and “old” are contradictions. 🙂
“”Cool” and “old” are contradictions. 🙂”
That’s not what the ladies under 30 are saying where I work.. 😉
MJ,
“That’s not what the ladies under 30 are saying where I work.. 😉”
Is it that there are no other men where you work? 🙂
“Is it that there are no other men where you work? 🙂”
@Marcia,
There are plenty of Men, but we’re not talking about them. We’re talking about me.
Miss Marcia
You never are too old or “not a guy” to watch/play video games. Even Momma played Resident Evil 5 & 6 with me. But you gotta watch what’s happening on screen cause that woman is a menace with an RPG.
MJ,
“There are plenty of Men, but we’re not talking about them. We’re talking about me.”
Supply and demand, baby. Hey, I’m Marilyn Monroe if I’m the only woman. 🙂
Adam,
“Even Momma played Resident Evil 5 & 6 with me. ”
She did that for you. No woman likes video games. Or sporting events. 🙂
“Supply and demand, baby. Hey, I’m Marilyn Monroe if I’m the only woman. 🙂”
@Marcia,
If you’re Marilyn Monroe, then that makes you 98 years old today.
Sorry Dear, you’re out of my age preference. And probably also out of range for a lot of the younger Dudes I work with. 🙂
MJ,
“Sorry Dear, you’re out of my age preference.”
I’m ok with that. 🙂
Don’t feel bad Adam, I couldn’t save Nicole either. (She’s my ex wife, lol)
@MJ and Marcia,
See, this adorable, playful banter is what gets me in trouble at work. Love it! MJ, take her out already 😃
LN,
” Love it! MJ, take her out already 😃”
You can’t take me out. I’m old and I’m mean. 🙂
“I’m old and I’m mean. 🙂”
You can say that again..
Keeping me up all night with your adorable, playful comments.. 🤣
“Love it! MJ, take her out already 😃”
I’m trying @LN.. 😆
She’s a feisty Old Broad
🤣🤣
MJ,
“Keeping me up all night with your adorable, playful comments.. 🤣”
See? Us old broads have something to contribute.
I just only leave the house when it’s dark outside. So I don’t scare nobody. 🙂
“I just only leave the house when it’s dark outside. So I don’t scare nobody. 🙂”
@Marcia
You don’t scare me Miss Marcia. I keep you around because you give good advice.
Besides, we’re supposed to respect our Elders.. 🙂
Marcia,
“You can’t take me out. I’m old and I’m mean. 🙂”
“A wretched, spiteful, straight-razor totin’ woman…”
“Poke Salad Annie” – Tony Joe White (1969)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBfMLmNjFn4
What’s your middle name? I can’t do much with Marcia. The best I can come up with is “Marshmallow Marcia.” 🙂
LE,
“What’s your middle name? ”
Meanness. Marcia Meanness. 🙂
MJ,
“Besides, we’re supposed to respect our Elders.. 🙂”
🤮
Hi all,
as I just wrote to Snow, still sorting through my mind after farewell dinner.
It went all pretty much as expected. I ended up talking most of the time to his SO, something I didn’t really want to do- but then I remind myself that he could have made more intense talk happen too , and that that’s just who he is- he never actively makes things happen, and when it’s ok for him to not have moments together, then it’s ok for me too.
That’s not spoken defiantly, I mean it. It’s part of letting go, to accept that he is how he is, and not wanting things from him that he isn’t able to give. Actually we started speaking a couple of times but then my SO needed help in the kitchen every single time. Of course, both SOs were there and the additional guest, the setting just wasn’t made for more than small talk, I guess.
My gift made LO very happy, and even his SO was very touched by it. He texted me about being thankful about it again later that night.
I did everything absolutely right in the light of mere friendship yesterday.
Now I feel a bit bleak and grey, having to say goodbye to the limerent dream of this LE, but in an accepting way.
I looked at him yesterday and saw all I have been limerent for, or better, I saw all the lovely traits I like about him, but already kind of from a distance.
Apart from limerence, he was a lovely secure presence in my life and now he‘ll be gone. Something to be sad about for sure.
My SO asked me if the evening didn’t have a bit of a strange atmosphere, and I cannot really judge it, maybe there was. I think LO‘s SO was a bit tense, a reason why I had to talk to her so much, I didn’t want her to feel left out, but now I think I should just have concentrated on my LO, I would have felt better (maybe, maybe not). That’s how my mind goes in circles today, so this isn’t a well thought-out post, just shows my state of mind.
I’m not sure if somebody wrote to me in the meantime apart from Snow, just cannot see through the jungle of posts and replies🙈! Thank you anyway everybody for again patiently listening to me sweating the small stuff.
Hi Mila,
Reading through your description of the goodbye dinner, I can imagine the mix of emotions you must be feeling today – I’d imagine there’s some sadness and grief and sorrow at the loss, some stoic acceptance and resignation, some pride that you handled the evening well and that your gift was so spot-on, maybe a little regret at things left unsaid, and probably a healthy dose of numbness and hollowness today – I think that’s about how I’d be feeling in your position at least. I’d probably also be spending a lot of time reminiscing on old memories of me and LO during happier times.
Anyway, I just wanted to send you a virtual hug and a song. I listened to this a lot at the end of an LE and even though it’s a sad song it brought me comfort somehow – while at a literal level it’s about losing people to death, at a more fundamental level I think it just speaks to the fact that losing people we love is a universal part of the human experience, and the sound and tone of the song are one of sad but also peaceful acceptance.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2XIbZPyo6xc
Hope you’re doing ok today and that life has some unexpected pleasant surprises up its sleeve for you as you move on from this phase of your life into the great unknown of your future.
Lost in Space,
you are still there! I‘m so glad to hear from you, I count it under the unexpected pleasant surprises that life may have up its sleeve you wrote about.
It really gave me a joyous jolt to my heart to read your name this morning and I feel happy.
Since you are the one who gave me the right words at the right time to change the course of my LE it feels very good to read some words from you for my final goodbye.
You are spot on as usual about my feelings, only there’s no time for reminiscing, I had to pack again and sitting in the train again, listening to the song you sent. It’s very sad but serene, I love it.
„maybe a little regret at things left unsaid“
Yesterday (last day I was in town, they‘ll move house next week while I‘m gone) I had the impulse to text something honest and heartfelt or even find some reason to come by his place and have a more meaningful goodbye than a short hug under the eyes of all families.
But then I didn’t, because I‘ve done exactly that one time too much over the last year. I was always the one to vent feelings, to give him warmth and emotion, and almost always he wasn’t able to give back in the same way, simply because, as you put in words, he wasn’t that person. So now I just leave it be.
My gift was a really good and thoughtful one, I’m very glad I made it, because his language is anyway not words but deeds or gifts, and I couldn’t say more than this gift says.
We haven’t texted apart from his text and my reply in the night after dinner, and I plan not to text any more. I mean, not stop texting in an abrupt manner, I will send a good luck message on their moving day etc, but I won’t initiate texting, nor should we go on to text every day about every day stuff like we used to.
It’s really goodbye now, if we text or not, I feel it’s really the big change now, and I‘m happy that you thought of me!
I would like to ask how things are with you, but I’d understand if you wouldn’t want to start writing about your story here again. I hope all and everyone is fine and you are following a happy path in your life!
Thanks again, I want you to know again that although for you it was just a few written words, you helped me very much back then and I’ll always be thankful for that.
Hi Mila, it’s nice to reconnect with you too – you were always someone I felt a real kinship with, and one of the main reasons I’ve still been popping my head in here from time to time has been to follow your story. I feel good for you that you’ve been able to reach this place in your journey with your head held high, acceptance in your heart, and optimism for your future. I’ll be curious to hear how you feel over the coming days and weeks and months when it fully settles in that this is really truly the end. I’m sure you’ll continue to handle everything well, regardless of whatever emotions you’ll likely experience.
Overall my life is going well. My relationship with SO has been really warm and loving and happy and even passionate, really couldn’t ask for anything more and I really do love being married to her. My kids are all thriving, and my work is going well too. I’m healthy and overall pretty happy. My LE might be coming to an end soon (although how many times have I thought that in the past?) – LO and I were very emotionally close and happy together for the last few months, but then she re-established barriers hard a couple weeks ago, and this time I think I see the writing on the wall that she’s likely planning to quit her job, go to school full time, and fully recommit herself to her SO for better or worse, leaving no place in her life for me. I don’t know that for sure – at the moment I’m in the place where you were some months ago when you were waiting for your LO to finally make this big decision and feeling like you have to pry it out of them, but also already kind of resigning yourself to the end. When the end does come for me, I just hope I can handle it as well as you have, and I’ll probably come back to reread your posts from this era to find guidance and inspiration for myself when that time comes.
All the best 😊,
LiS
Hi Lost in Space,
I’m not sure I should be your role model in this case. There was so much dithering and resentful feeling from my side in these last months. I wish I could have managed it without the anger and some spiteful thoughts, and I was most probably being not as good a friend to LO as I could have been without limerence.
It could be that he was wondering why I am this or that way, or being hurt by some of my behavior, or it could be that he didn’t notice. Even now I’m not sure what’s going on in his head – he’s not texting, and it could be that either he decided something similar to my decision , maybe he needs some kind of closure too, or he’s simply too busy.
Of course my thoughts are tempted to climb onto the old merrygoround and ruminate. I think the important thing is now to take a step back each time that threatens to happen, and see that it doesn’t matter. That it is liberating indeed, to not care, or to stop thinking that it would matter to know what he thinks.
That’s maybe something I can tell you, together with Bewitched: it helps to just stop guessing what LO might think/feel, in the face of the truth that it doesn’t matter. They could tell us, but they don’t.
And maybe it’s time for me to admit that limerence stood in the way of me being the friend he needed, and that it’s better to get some distance between us now instead of trying to be that special kind of friend again and again.
My feelings go back and forth as you predicted, but I won’t mess up this chance of closure for texting some random stuff to him and go on as before. That would be the long route with the same ending, because I’m quite sure that even if we go on texting, it will die down eventually simply out of lack of common life, of face to face meetings, of shared stuff.
So she put the barriers back on? Did she tell you this time before she withdraw, or did she just vanish again? If she did the latter, after all the talk, then I guess she’ll never change and you’ve got your own merrygoround here that could go on for years.
But if she is on her way out completely, it’s a different matter. She seems a bit like my LO, cannot commit to open statements or decisions, so she doesn’t make any statements. Looking in from the outside (like I couldn’t do with my own LE), I understand it a bit. She cannot stand in front of you and tell you she will do exactly what you predicted, because she feels her way towards it herself. She cannot admit any decision to herself and even less to you as long as she’s not sure she’ll be able to pull it all through. That might have been the case with my LO too. I still expect a friend to tell me at some point, and I hope your LO will be a bit more courageous and fair than mine.
I’m also curious how time will settle my feelings and how it will all play out. I need to be vigilant to fill the hole with worthwhile things or just not fill it at all and stay with the pain instead of falling for the next glimmer just to distract myself.
All the best for you LiS, I’m very glad that the rest of your life is harmonious. We cannot be humble enough about being so lucky .
Hi Mila, I think I consider you a role model for me because you struggled really hard with all the same “dithering and resentful feelings” that I know so well, which all stem from a strong desire to hold on to someone important and not lose them, but you eventually worked through it to reach a point of acceptance where now you’re truly coming out the other side of it and seem really committed to moving forward with your life and you mostly feel ok about it. That’s what I hope to be able to emulate when that time does come for me.
My LO did just put up the barriers suddenly without warning and it hurt a lot. We’d been pretty close, talking most every day for the past few months, and the for the last several weeks she’d been going through a series of crises in her life and I supported her heavily in a lot of ways. And then as soon as the crises passed, she went cold and sent me a terse text reminding me of boundaries, and also laid some hints that she might be leaving the workplace soon. That felt really bad as you could imagine.
But the thing that’s different about our relationship is that everything is so open between us, so after a week of cold behavior from her, I texted her yesterday and told her I was feeling really hurt and asked if we could talk. She agreed, and we spoke on the phone for an hour yesterday and I openly shared how I was feeling and she did the same and we basically had the “state of the relationship” talk that we needed, where we reaffirmed the importance of maintaining boundaries (we talked a lot about how horrible it would feel to hurt our partners), and also reaffirmed our mutual desire to stay friends and stay involved in each others’ lives. We also talked about trying to keep our relationship level without the highs and lows, and talked about certain things both of us should avoid doing to avoid provoking excess feelings in each other, various romantic gestures and whatnot. So it was a really nice talk and made me hopeful that we can carry on in a good way, although of course if doesn’t bring me any closer to ending the relationship and moving on like you are…
Lost in Space,
I never know if I should envy you or be glad not to be in your situation. I guess it’s both. I envy that you‘ve got someone you can really talk to and everything can be honest and heartfelt, but when I imagine how hard it would be for me to disentangle myself from my LE if my LO would respond to me like your LO does to you- wow.
I couldn’t do it, I guess.
I always complain about my LO being so passive etc, but actually I should be d**n glad about it, because I‘m not sure about my powers of resistance and balance when tempted seriously while limerent.
Me in your shoes, everything would have escalated by now, I guess. Or maybe I’m wrong and Marcia has a point- maybe it’s his passivity that made me go crazy and I wouldn’t be half as wild for him if he pursued me more?
I’m glad that you can always get her to talk to you seriously, on the other hand I’m not sure how it will go on and on.
Did she elaborate on her plans to leave your workplace?
I’m not completely out of the woods yet, so please wait a bit before you try to emulate🙈
But I do think, if she really will leave, you will be able to grieve and let go, like I hope to be. It would be a clear-cut situation and that’s easier to deal with.
Mila,
A good thing about my LO is that she’s pretty escalation-resistant. Once things start escalating at all, or if she feels like she’s at risk of losing control of herself, she shuts down and disengages. It’s her strongest defense mechanism. I told her yesterday that it’s really painful for me when she does that but I also respect the hell out of her for doing it and I know that her commitment to boundaries has kept everyone safe for the past 2 years and will continue to keep us all safe. This is true even if she’s the one who drove the escalation – there’ve been times when she’s been uncharacteristically open about her feelings for me, or she’s sent me a really romantic song or hinted that she’d like to meet up outside of work sometime, and it always feels good for me to hear that from her (big rush of all the happy brain chemicals) but then I always know the pull-back is coming soon after. I feel very certain that if we ever did give in completely and make love, it would end with her running away crying and never speaking to me again. That image is a pretty good check on my own behavior! I also feel like I just don’t actually have it in me to cross that big line – there have been a handful of times, like maybe 4-5 times in the past 2 years, where I felt that she was truly ready to just throw out all restraint and just go for it – and in all of those cases, I felt a cold terror inside and I intentionally put distance between us until the moment passed. More than anything, it’s fear of hurting my SO that restrains both of us – me because I love my SO very much, LO because of her own experience being betrayed by her SO and still having frequent nightmares about the other woman years later, and being horrified at the thought of being the woman who destroys my wife’s life and haunts her nightmares.
And yet we keep talking and keep staying involved in each others’ lives, keep deleting our texts and call logs at the end of each day, and keep trying to stay on the narrow path of what we consider acceptable to our own consciences and harmless to our SOs and families. It’s kind of wonderful and kind of exhausting at the same time, and half of me does wish that she would just move on and tell me it’s all over and put an end to things for good, and half of me wants to keep her close to me forever and would do almost anything to keep her close. It’s a mess, but at the same time I look around and see that everything’s working out well for everyone – my wife’s doing so well that she’s tapering off her antidepressants and is just feeling really good about herself and about life, my kids are thriving, LO is mentally healthier and taking care of herself better than ever before and she’s halfway through a really challenging nursing program, she and her SO and her kids are all getting along better than in a long time. I’m in the top 10% of performers at work according to the latest review so it’s not hurting my work, I’m healthy and in great shape and sleeping well at night and energetic and productive… so is it all really that bad?
Hi LiS,
I honestly don’t know!
Maybe you two really fill each other‘s gaps and needs, maybe that lets you carry on with your lives and gives you patience and strength, who knows, who can judge, certainly not me. I do hope very much that that’s the case and that you can walk together on these parallel tracks for a while until they separate, and I really wish for you that they will separate without disruption for anyone, with mutual affection and a satisfying goodbye, whenever that will be.
@LIS
Yeah, like I keep envisioning LO’s children turning against him. More than anything, that seems to do it. Also the pain of the SO’s. LO tried some things and I blocked him. And I realized, if I can’t even let him get that far, how could I even think I could go any farther with him? That inner check of conscience is still there. I said I was full of guilt and he said it was the same with him.
Serial Limerent – I think that guilt is a very useful emotion! It’s not a pleasant emotion, but it’s definitely one of the most important! Especially when innocent kids and SOs are involved… That and the fear of loss – I’d be devastated if I didn’t get to see my kids everyday because I wrecked my marriage over LO, and also devastated if I didn’t get to be with my SO anymore. I’m glad you and your LO also have healthy guilt responses to keep you away from disaster.
LiS, I can’t help myself – can I play Limerent Emeritus’ advocate and ask what is your “fairy tale ending”?
You mentioned giving in and making love a couple of times in one of your responses…
So I can’t believe that your FTE is just going on as you have until now, i.e. marriage going on as-is and LO as a special close friend until infinity(!)
@LIS
It’s also a good way to find out if he actually cares vs. a secret cheater just trying to start a PA. Two months ago he disclosed to me verbally and he sounded like he could be limerent, but I’ve had experience and just finished reading Dangerous Liaisons and know that guys can lie. 😉 There is that reluctance to have a PA and blow up one’s life and have it all be for nothing. But a month after the boundary discussions, he seems perfectly happy to take a PA off the table and hug me at church instead. (Usually several times, lol.) He still seeks me out, still likes hearing from me.
Trifles, that’s a good question and made me think a lot.
FTE (magical, anything is possible version) – somehow SO decides that it would be great if I had a second wife and then I could move LO and her kids into our home and everyone gets along wonderfully and I get to spend all the time I want and be as close as I want with both women and LO and SO become besties, and everyone is totally happy with it forever (it’s a fairy tale, right?)
FTE (real life rules apply) – basically what you said, I stay in a warm and loving marriage with SO for the rest of my life and stay in a warm and loving yet discreet special friendship (with all the same boundaries) with LO for the rest of my life. Maybe this is actually a nightmare disguised as a fairytale, but again, it’s mostly been working out really nicely for awhile now and I could see it continuing this way long term.
Most likely outcome in real life – LO eventually leaves the workplace, our frequency of contact decreases, the limerence on both sides dies down enough that the relationship just gradually fizzles out
Bad outcome to avoid – LO announces plans to leave, we both become increasingly distraught about the idea of separating, leading to a period of upheaval with rapid shifts between avoidance and excess closeness and possibly an attempt from one side or the other at breaking boundaries in a major way – I don’t think this will happen in real life, but it’s definitely something to guard against.
Hi Lost in Space, I have another worst case scenario for you to consider…
LO’s BPD causes her to split and she believes that you are a bad guy. She makes your life a living hell and you find yourself meeting with a victim’s advocate to apply for a protective order against LO. I hope your marriage survives.
By the way, my sister threatened to kill me, my dad and my aunt. My protective order was approved yesterday. We are trying to get my dad’s approved as soon as possible because we think he is in the most danger. My sister got her guns back which scares me very much. My aunt might wait until the criminal case is decided and then she will pursue a criminal protective order. I fully intend to get both civil and criminal protective orders because I am afraid of what my sister will do. I never thought it would escalate to this level. I haven’t had contact with my sister since June when I encouraged her to see a therapist then in August she started sending me threatening and vulgar messages. She was mad at my Aunt and so she started threatening me. I don’t understand her logic. The thing that made her so angry at my aunt wasn’t even offensive. I can’t figure out why my sister was offended by my Aunt. This is all so crazy! I hope your LO keeps her BPD in check because I don’t want you to see her dark side if it is anything like my sister’s.
Best of luck, Lost in Space!
Oh my god Lovisa.
That’s awful and truly crazy. I pray that you and your family stay safe! Best of luck for you.
@LIS: You should watch Sister Wives, not the early seasons, but the later ones. That’ll get the desire for polygamy out of your system, lol!
@Mila: I hope you stay safe! OMG
Lovisa, that’s all just so awful, I’m so sorry for you and your family and I pray that everyone stays safe!
I do think about these things with my LO sometimes, maybe not as often as I should (so thank you for the reminders). It’s definitely one of the things that helps me avoid temptation, thinking about how much more intense the feelings between us would get if we ever did get physical and how that could make a really bad outcome more likely. I also have saved enough text messages in a safe place that if I ever needed to, I’d be able to demonstrate that a) she initiated our relationship, not me, b) she was a willing participant and co-instigator all along and I never coerced her or pressured her, and c) it never became physical. Not that this would make all the badness go away if push came to shove, but I think it would definitely help if I did ever end up having to talk to HR or my wife about it.
Things are good with LO so far though – she’s seeing her therapist every week and doing the homework assignments her therapist gives her, she’s going to DBT skills group every week and learning a lot from it, she’s seeing a psychiatrist and taking a mood stabilizer that’s helping a lot, and she really feels like she’s moving in a good direction and really wants to get better – she’s just so tired of all the emotional instability she’s experienced for her whole life and really wants to move towards better mental health and stability.
Thank you everyone for your prayers and well wishes. I am a religious woman and I am so overwhelmed that I don’t even know what to pray for anymore. I want this madness to stop.
Lost in Space, I am delighted about the progress that your LO is making in therapy. I hope she continues with it. My sister refuses to get therapy because she thinks everything is someone else’s fault.
I really hope your situation with your LO doesn’t go sideways. You were wise to keep some evidence just in case she defames you.
I have to laugh about your sister-wives dream. I am descended from Mormon Pioneers. My ancestors practiced polygamy until 1890. I don’t think it was easy for them. Some of their stories are hilarious. I think the odds of that sister-wife situation working for you are as good as if your wife brought home another man to be your brother-husband. It just wouldn’t work.
Miss Lovisa
That’s because only men think they can keep two women happy. 🙂
Women are much more practical and can see all the issues that could come up.
Now after limerence I know that for sure. What was I thinking? :-/
Oh yeah, I know that there’s no way in hell that the sister-wives thing could work in real life… that’s clearly in the realm of magical fairy tale ending. You know, like how fairy tales end with “they lived happily ever after” without describing exactly how they managed to live happily ever after – like Cinderella and her prince struggling to set boundaries with difficult in-laws, or Snow White unexpectedly developing limerence for one of the dwarves and nearly throwing her marriage away…
Actually, LO recently made a couple of offers to babysit my kids so that SO and I could go out together. It was kind of tempting to think about inviting LO into my home to meet my family and get to spend more time with her and get even closer, but I also knew it would be a terrible thing to do. I can’t imagine my wife not picking up on something between me and LO, and then she’d have questions for me, and then I’d either have to either lie to SO and gaslight her into believing that her own perceptions were wrong or else tell her the truth about LO, and either of those would be so hurtful to her. I explained this to LO and she agreed that it would be terrible and that I was right for saying no, said she knew that she’d be furious if her SO brought some other woman into their home under similar pretenses. But I admit that for a moment it was pretty tempting to imagine trying to bring the ‘big happy family’ fantasy to life, like “but what if SO and LO just hit it off really well and then LO started hanging out at our house all the time, wouldn’t that be so great…”
This is so relevant: https://www.gocomics.com/speedbump/2017/10/21
(BTW, that @Mila was meant to be @Lovisa…)
@LIS: As dangerous as it might be, as LN discovered–I hang onto my journals and texts just in case I need to prove one day that LO was pursuing me rather than the other way around. It also helps keep things straight in my own head. Hopefully this will not be necessary.
My first LE was mutual and very intense, and we erased messages and destroyed letters etc, but it wouldn’t have occurred to me to keep something secretly so I could kind of denounce my LO, just in case- it’s a bit chilling to read that you both do. I understand it, it’s surely safe to do it, but still… well, I must have been too naive and trusting. Who knows, maybe LO1 still keeps one of my revealing letters somewhere in case I go off the rails (after 12 years or something ..)
I prefer to think that he was as trusting and over the moon as me, but when I think about it now, he is more bound to act this way than stupid me. I just was so limerent and thought the world of him, would have never believed he would point the finger on me in an emergency. I wouldn’t have ever, since this LE was my responsibility as much as his.
Mila,
I have never seen it expressed before as “I was just so limerent”. It’s a beautiful use of the English language, whether or not deliberate, and I relate to the idea!
Hope he didn’t let you down with that trust.
I know my LO keeps ‘dossiers’ on people she doesn’t like at work – I should probably be more worried than I am! But like LiS I have reams of material that show her as an instigator (not deliberately assembled, just exists in communication history) if I ever needed it. I very much doubt I ever will.
Lovisa,
I’m so sorry to hear what you’re going through with your sister. My thoughts are with you and your family
If she’s at the point of threatening to kill her family (and if that threat seems real), is there not some way to get her put inside a secure treatment environment for her and others’ safety?
“But what if SO and LO just hit it off really well and then LO started hanging out at our house all the time, wouldn’t that be so great…”
LiS,
I figure you’re never going to allow this because of everything else you mention in your post. I am glad to hear your LO seems to be doing well, despite the feelings that seemingly always come up between the two of you. It’s a situation that almost seems too good to be true, but what do I know?? My hats off to you Friend. On the other hand, it just feels rife with deception. All over the place.
Have you considered that LO could possibly be offering to babysit in your home to see the real home-life side of you? But in some sort-of maybe sick and twisted-like way. Like seeing the actual place where you live, with your Wife and Children. Family photos, family heirlooms, the food you eat or what’s in your fridge. The tools in your garage, your kids’ toys, all this stuff you’ve accumulated over the years and you would be inviting this LO, into your home to see and be around all of it? Someone who’s expressed feelings for you but won’t ever follow through? Because of your so-called happy home life. How could this be good for her psyche? How could her Therapist not be advising against it? I mean how do you even know she’s not somehow as secretly obsessed with you like you are her? Do you even consider her obsession with you is bigger than you could imagine??
Imagine while you and your Wife are out for the night, LO is at home with your kids, doing nothing harmful to them, but in her head, she’s imagining “she’s” actually your Wife? Like playing “Mom” acting completely like your Wife and your kids begin to adore her like a Mom? What if she’s playing dress-up and maybe putting on your Wife’s clothes, pretending she is her? Maybe putting on some of your Wife’s perfume or wearing her jewelry? What if she’s smelling your dirty laundry because it smells like you? Or deciding to wear your clothes because you’ve been in them? I mean what if, what if, what if? There’s so many red flags here. But People can get really weird when it comes to feelings and obsession. So I think it’s a really good thing LO actually agrees it wouldn’t be the wisest choice to come and babysit.
I just don’t see how things keep materializing like you say they do, between the two of you and then you say she is getting better. For someone to claim that they are sick and tired of emotional instability, there certainly doesn’t seem to be much effort at putting a halt to try and stop it.
Please know I’m really not trying to rain on your parade either. I know how God-Awful this limerence thing is so I get why the idea of her and your Wife getting along in some utopian-perfect way might seem so appealing. Just don’t F#@! things up Man!!
I’ll have to come find you and beat you with a rubber hose.. 🤣
I’ll just end by saying what you already know about me. I once had everything you had. And now I don’t.
Have a great day LiS..
Lim-a-rant,
You have a great question,
“If she’s at the point of threatening to kill her family (and if that threat seems real), is there not some way to get her put inside a secure treatment environment for her and others’ safety?”
My sister is an American citizen with rights. I haven’t been able to find a way for her to receive an evaluation unless she consented to it. Unfortunately, she refuses to see a therapist. She might get arrested for some of her threats and I hope that she will have an opportunity to speak to a therapist if she gets arrested. I would love for her to get treatment! I hate seeing her suffer and I hate that we are in fear of what she will do next.
Lost in Space, having your LO babysit your kids is a bad idea. You were right to shut that down. I can’t elaborate because I don’t have time, but it’s best if she doesn’t babysit your kids. I recommend that her daughters also don’t babysit your kids.
@Mila: I’m not expecting LO to do anything like that, but I’ve been burned in the past by others.
@LIS
Another thing is that just a few days after we had the boundary talks, I had to deal with a family emergency. I kept thinking how glad I was that I was at home and present to take care of it, not stepping out with LO!
Hey MJ! Thanks for all the thoughts and the warnings, which I know come from a place of genuine concern for me and my family. Sorry to not write back to you sooner – I was actually starting a reply to you on Friday afternoon before heading home, but then LO called and I spent the next hour talking with her, and then I’ve been with SO pretty much all weekend… it’s hard to balance all of this sometimes!
Confession time – when I first read your story about LO being in my home pretending to be my wife, trying on my wife’s clothes, trying on my clothes… I felt excited. Not horrified or creeped out, but frankly aroused. So I guess my first gut-level response to your post tells me something about my true feelings and desires, huh? But anyway, like you said, there’s no way I’m going to allow it and I’m pretty certain that after I talked with LO about it last week, she’s never going to ask again.
There was a time about 6 months ago when my wife was out of town for the week and I’d taken the week off work to stay home with the kids. It just so happened that my son was playing in a band festival in LO’s town one day that week, and LO happened to be off work that day taking care of her youngest daughter who was getting over an illness and was pretty much healed by that point. I had to drop my son off early that morning but then would have a few hours to kill before his performance, and my plan was to go to the park and the children’s museum with my 2 little ones who aren’t talking enough yet to be able to tell on me. I debated with myself for awhile, and finally did text LO asking if she’d like to meet up at the children’s museum to hang out while our kids played. I told myself that it was totally appropriate for me to ask, that since we hadn’t crossed any physical lines and were “just friends” despite the feelings, that it would be totally fine, that taking kids to the museum together was something that normal friends do all the time. But if I was being truly honest with myself, I actually just really liked the idea of me and LO spending a couple of hours together acting like a real couple, just doing a normal couple thing and taking our kids out to play and then getting lunch. I really liked imaging us being like a real couple, even if it was only play-acting for a couple of hours. Anyway, she debated with herself for awhile as well and then finally said no (because her daughter’s a little older and might have said something to her dad about mom hanging out with some guy), but then we ended up texting all day long and things got pretty affectionate, and she ended up making some comments towards the end of the day that made it clear she did still fantasize about us being together for real some day, and then the next day she stopped talking to me for a couple of weeks because she got too scared about where it was all going.
So what was her motivation to offer to babysit recently? I think it was probably innocent – she knew that my SO and I had been struggling to get date nights because both of our regular babysitters had moved away recently, and LO often says that she feels bad that I do so much for her and she can’t do much for me, so this might have just been her thinking that it was a way she could do something nice for me. And it might have also been a way for her to assuage her own guilt toward my SO, something like “I can’t be a homewrecker if I’m helping them strengthen their marriage by babysitting their kids so they can go out on dates”.
On the other hand, there may have been some of that other stuff too. She’s a very observant person – every time she comes into my office, she notices everything. If I have a new family photo up, she notices right away and looks at it and comments or asks questions (also if anything on my desk is crooked or out of place, she straightens it for me, which I find endearing). She remembers all sorts of little details I tell her about myself and my life and my family. I’m certain that she would enjoy getting to spend time in my home just observing and learning more about me. And would she enjoy cooking in my kitchen and straightening up my home and playing with my kids and putting them to bed like she was my wife? Honestly, she probably would. Would I enjoy it if I somehow got to spend a day at her house helping her with yardwork and little home projects and helping her kids with their homework and basically getting to pretend I was her husband? Yes I would, of course I would.
But anything like that would be such a big potential tipping point, so it just can’t happen. So we stick to our boundaries – we text sometimes, and we talk on the phone sometimes, and every so often we sit in my office together and have lunch or just chat, and that’s the extent of our relationship and that’s all there ever can be and we both agree on this. And it’s kind of difficult and it’s kind of painful and it’s pretty frustrating, but it also still feels rewarding and neither of us wants to it stop. Our conversations are still amazing pretty much every time, and the level of trust and affection and closeness between us just feels really good, and we both get a lot out of it even if we both know it can never go any further.
@Lost In Space I feel that happy jolt when I see your name, too. 🙂 Always wondering how things are going with you, especially as my own LE gets more like it. That feeling of comaraderie….. 🙂
Hi Serial Limerent, great to hear from you too!
I think I read that you and your LO had a close call with temptation recently and you resisted? How have things been since then (both between the two of you and inside your own head)?
Still trying to keep away from the edge, but also having the tempting thoughts now and then. We discussed some boundaries and still only see each other at church, where there are nearly always people nearby, keeping things in check.
Nice to hear from you, LiS! I’ve wondered how things are with you. I read your post below as well and I’m glad that you’re “overall pretty happy.”
Hi SO.Miranda, great to hear from you! I’ll always remember you giving me a lot more grace than I felt like I deserved. How are things with you these days? And how is your relationship with your husband going?
@Lost in Space – We’re doing well. Thank you. We talk a lot, though I’m sure my husband would prefer that I not ask so many questions. We have mostly very good days, but we do have bad days as well.
Healing isn’t linear. It’s more circuitous, but we end up in a better place each time. We met almost 46 years ago and the years leading up to the limerence and the limerence itself seem like a fraction of the time we’ve had together. It doesn’t hurt less, but the length of time together, and knowing it’s been mostly a very good time together, puts things in perspective.
And I don’t know that I gave you more grace than you deserved. We’re all just trying to understand and live the best lives we can. You certainly helped me understand what it’s like to really love SO but still feel love for another.
I’m replying to myself here as there doesn’t seem to be a way to add a reply to your post.
Hi Mila. I am sure you would be left with bitter sweet feelings, though I hope you got some closure. I have felt the same way with LO in gatherings — should I initiate contact, how much should we speak, what if our SOs are watching (they probably are), and so on and so forth. These gatherings have been a massive source of anxiety in the past, but not so much now, which I take as a good sign. I wish you the very best, and I am sure you feel better and better, now.
Hi ABCD,
so good to hear from you! How have you been, it sounds like you made progress!
Thank you for thinking of me, I really feel this was it, this is the end of this LE, I‘ve definitely a feeling of closure.
When I think of all the times I had this anxiety you talk about, and also how torn I was between loving and angry feelings all the time, I really think it’s a good thing it ended, I don’t want this any more.
Also after this evening, I thought how I‘m even torn between feelings towards his family- his SO is lovely but also sometimes annoying, same for his kid, and I‘m glad not to have to ride these waves of anxiety/affection/annoyance/love any more.
I wish you the same and anyway the best!
That’s great, Mila!
You are spot on when you talk about how much of an issue it is to deal with that mixture of multiple emotions, and how much better our quality of life will be if we say try to say goodbye to feeling like that.
Remember, feeling much better is just around the corner! This is what I tell myself, and it feels good to anticipate the future — something better to look forward to.
I will share my progress in another post soon. In short, I seem to be more stable than before.
Hi ABCD,
great to hear you feel more stable!
While the mixture of emotions feel like being very alive in the beginning, they get vexing and torturous once they don’t evolve any more, but go round and round the same thing.
It’s good for our sanity and will enrichen our life to get out of that hamster wheel.
Dear Mila,
I just wanted to check-in to say “well done”. Its a big achievement to come out of a situation like this with your dignity intact.
“My SO asked me if the evening didn’t have a bit of a strange atmosphere, and I cannot really judge it, maybe there was. I think LO‘s SO was a bit tense, a reason why I had to talk to her so much, I didn’t want her to feel left out, but now I think I should just have concentrated on my LO, I would have felt better (maybe, maybe not). That’s how my mind goes in circles today, so this isn’t a well thought-out post, just shows my state of mind.”
By spending a lot of time talking to LO’s SO I think that you did him a big favour. And it was very important that she would feel welcome in your home. For them to spend the last of their remaining time there in your company means a lot, in itself, irrespective of the words said.
I think that it sounds as though you carried this off with aplomb (new word!?). By being so attentive to your LO’s SO, you will have earned his gratitude more than anything else.
Maybe go easy on yourself this week, if you can?
Hi Bewitched,
Thank you! I think I carried it off not really with aplomb (love that word!) but quite ok and in harmony with the wish to bring everything back to mere friendship.
„By being so attentive to your LO’s SO, you will have earned his gratitude more than anything else.“
Here you give my LO too much credit. He’s not very attentive or sensitive in this respect (but she is, that’s why I did it). I think he probably would have liked it more if I would have talked to him instead of to her, but he didn’t initiate it himself as usual, so this is how it is- I stopped thinking that I should have done more/talked more, if he couldn’t get the energy up to initiate it.
Although as I mentioned, every time we did start to talk, my SO interrupted. Which wasn’t on purpose by SO, but kind of fate stating something, if one is inclined to read something into it.
No, I really feel closure, especially since I recognized yesterday that this was the situation I was in for so many times- a meeting with things left unsaid churning in my gut afterwards. And this time I clearly saw that I would go in circles, would I reach out again and say the words etc. It would be the same over again. I just didn’t do anything and the churning calmed down.
I‘m sitting on the train now, feeling closure and new times opening up, and I hope very very much, that this feeling will hold.
I‘m on my way to family with the kids, and have lots to prepare for work, so not really the chance to go easy, but a good chance to concentrate on other stuff.
Thank you so much too, Bewitched, for helping me through difficult times.
I hope your feeling of balance and progress will prove to be permanent. But I‘m quite sure that even if it might be shaken by f2f meetings or unexpected actions of your LO, you won’t lose it. You sound like serious progress to me.
Hey Mila,
I find reading your posts so illuminating. Its also tangentially related to our discussion with L-a-R, who I am going to reply to in a second.
Just a quick comment:
“Here you give my LO too much credit. He’s not very attentive or sensitive in this respect (but she is, that’s why I did it). I think he probably would have liked it more if I would have talked to him instead of to her, but he didn’t initiate it himself as usual, so this is how it is- I stopped thinking that I should have done more/talked more, if he couldn’t get the energy up to initiate it.”
Don’t you ever feel desperately sorry for your LO’s SO, with her being saddled with this limited other-half who is so inconsiderate? I myself feel this about my LO’s SO who I don’t even know! I really think she is a saint to put up with him (he has flirted with me so I feel this for her, but he also has other quirks). I know his SO annoys you a bit, but that could have been you stuck in a relationship with him!! I never wanted a real relationship with my LO – the whole idea is bonkers – definitely more an ‘in love with being in love’ situation…
More importantly, this:
“No, I really feel closure, especially since I recognized yesterday that this was the situation I was in for so many times- a meeting with things left unsaid churning in my gut afterwards. And this time I clearly saw that I would go in circles, would I reach out again and say the words etc. It would be the same over again. **I just didn’t do anything and the churning calmed down.
I‘m sitting on the train now, feeling closure and new times opening up, and I hope very very much, that this feeling will hold**.”
Not doing anything is powerful for me because it means letting go of stuff, all the rumination and thoughts. Even though these are just thoughts, they take up a hell of a lot of time. So even just stopped this one part, I feel that I am acting better. I mean, I could go even further and take real action and use that time for something else. It could be doing something with SO or anything, really. Just not giving my thought over to the LO any longer.
Enjoy your train rides with the kids Mila – they will keep you busy and no time to yourself think (blessing in disguise!?!).
Hi Bewitched,
your posts and your not-doing-anything strategy do help me at the moment too. My thoughts go to LO and the whole LE a lot, naturally, but only to realize that its really time to let go, not try a last warm exchange, not beating a dead horse, just let this friendship be as it develops, which means most probably a superficial text exchange here and there and then maybe a meeting here and there. The meaningful conversations I desired will never happen.
And I think it’s good for both of us that thus friendship might cool, I have the feeling that it was at times as vexing to him as to me, he for sure felt expectations from my side he couldn’t really decipher, at the same time having had expectations of his own that I didn’t fulfill.
„ Don’t you ever feel desperately sorry for your LO’s SO, with her being saddled with this limited other-half who is so inconsiderate? “
Yes I do and did!
I really wouldn’t want to be in her place, (but I wouldn’t want to be married to her either.)
When I look at this couple I see on the one hand that they are wholly committed to their marriage and family, on the other hand -he shows so little warmth- no hugs, very seldom that they touch, and when they do, it’s her initiative, and she, although warmer, is so bound by rules of behavior and life (stemming from her country of origin)and so married to her career, too. I wouldn’t want to be either of them.
But I guess they find fault with me and my family too, I don’t know.
The most important thing for me now is to let go, also of these resentful thoughts.
But it does help to remind myself of all these reasons we don’t match well, whenever the fairytale of soulmates and best friend ever surfaces.
Thanks Bewitched, for your constant care and precious insights!
The Past Is the Present
Marianne Moore 1887 – 1972
Revived bitterness
is unnecessary unless
One is ignorant.
To-morrow will be
Yesterday unless you say the
Days of the week back-
Ward. Last weeks’ circus
Overflow frames an old grudge. Thus:
When you attempt to
Force the doors and come
At the cause of the shouts, you thumb
A brass nailed echo.
Glad to hear you are happy with how you behaved, I think that is the most important thing.
Hi Heebide Jeebies,
absolutely. If I would behaved in any stupid way, extra cold or too clingy, or would have done something unfair to his or my LO, or would have been spiteful about his going away, I would feel very restless now and dejected. As it is, I’m still tempted to ruminate why he’s silent and if he expected this or that, but then I think about it and decide that I was completely ok, and that gives me more of a feeling of closure than anything.
@Marcia,
Not to me. What you call “old” and “mean” I call that experienced and pleasantly fiesty 😉
LN,
“What you call “old” and “mean” I call that experienced and pleasantly fiesty 😉”
What a nice thing to say. Thank you. 🙂
@Anna and @Bewitched.
Anna, this is in response to your post on the ‘Fictional Limerence’ about the position on limerence you’re reaching through therapy. I have put it here in the coffeehouse to avoid me drifting off topic.
“Learn to appreciate yourself for who AND how you are and instead of devoting every waking moment to getting rid of your unwanted thoughts, train yourself to invest in the present moment AS IT IS and take the risk of accepting uncertainty.”
I like this position, so my reply comes only out of genuine curiousity – a few of us I have discussed similar things at length further up this coffeehouse. Is your therapist recommending this method purely as a way to be with thoughts/emotions/feelings? If yes, this means being able to separate thoughts from action. So, for example – I’d like to get to a place to deal with my thoughts about the LE in this same way as you are. But I also have to determine my actions around LO all the time (do I reply to this message in this or that way? how do I respond to invitations? should I contact or not? etc.). In these actions, there is a more moral part – responses feel ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ – with the backdrop of my having an SO, so knowing the LE can come to nothing. So I am finding it difficult to square taking a passive “let it come and go” stance with thoughts, with having to determine a more purposeful response with actions. It feels hard to separate the two. Has this distinction come up with the therapist at all?
Bewitched – it is perhaps almost the same question as for Anna but put another way. Before, we talked about how you had got to a place of more casual indifference around thoughts (that might be my words to summarise, not yours) – not minding so much if you are right or wrong about your LO’s feelings towards you, or have you’ve interpreted them. But then, from the other thread, you said: “I have let go of trying to control the limerence (let go of trying to control interactions with LO, or what he thinks) and the result was that ‘it’ has lessened all by itself.”
Where you say ‘let go of trying to control interactions’, it suggests letting go around actions as well as thoughts. Did you find that if you got control of the thoughts, the actions simply followed down a good path for you? Or did it need different strategies for each? I am a bit concerned because actions have consequences, and I am still at the point (fairly constant and often unavoidable contact with LO) where I have to control my actions very carefully if I’m not to do one out of disclose, ‘leak’ too much, or ghost – all of which could result in a material change and a worse ending.
I’m not trying to ask either of you to solve it for me (that’s not fair or realistic) – I’m just wondering about how thought and action have worked together and/or separately for you, in getting to where you are.
Very good questions. I think the goal would be ideally, to let all emotions come to you and flow through you, acknowledging them but not acting on them. The strategy I attempted was, then to act as I would if I would have the proper emotions and relationship to this person that I wished to have (no limerence or inappropriate expectations, only warm friendship), a sort of play-acting. But it’s very hard because you need a cool head to stop yourself from reacting too fast, writing or speaking too spontaneously, and then to be able to judge which response would be adequate, it was just too hard for my limerence-addled brain.
If you let feelings come to you, you want to act on them, otherwise it feels wrong. It’s very difficult. Maybe someone else can advise here, surely not me.
Mila,
Thank you for replying!
Please don’t do down your ability to give constructive thoughts. Since I have been writing here (around 4 months) various commenters have given indispensable advice that have meant I made better decisions than I would have otherwise.
You have been one of the best. I don’t present with typical LwL circumstances, you are one of the only others where there was a pre-limerence friendship plus work connections (mine of those are looser than yours maybe and some others here, but do exist and can’t be completely avoided) plus wanting some friendship to speak of after. I realise it is a difficult point to discuss that with you as you try to figure out how that might now look, and whether you still want it, in the changed circumstances. There is no rush for you to decide or act either way, I’d say.
One of the most helpful things was when we talked about LO’s actions as “what friends do” vs “what people who are attracted do”. Being able to categorise a lot of my LO’s behaviours as the first but NOT the second (after 50 times to learn it as you once said!) has helped me move on just a little. And it is a strategy I can keep returning to. She veers unhelpfully off script with this at times (‘leading the dance’) but not so much.
“The strategy I attempted was, then to act as I would if I would have the proper emotions and relationship to this person that I wished to have (no limerence or inappropriate expectations, only warm friendship), a sort of play-acting. But it’s very hard because you need a cool head to stop yourself from reacting too fast, writing or speaking too spontaneously, and then to be able to judge which response would be adequate”
This point is quite reassuring. Seeing it written like that, I realise I am acting like this mostly (not jumping to decisions / responses, not giving too much, just trying to be as a more authentic friend will be). I catch myself when I don’t, and try to learn from it. Hopefully it will all get more natural, but I still need to work on strategies to lower contact more.
(To your reply to LiS)
“I was most probably being not as good a friend to LO as I could have been without limerence.”
But you were probably being as good a friend as you could WITH limerence, and that really counts for something.
Happy travels and shutting the mind to it for a while!
Lim-a-rant,
„ But you were probably being as good a friend as you could WITH limerence, and that really counts for something.“
That’s so nice of you, thank you, it touched me!
I’m again really touched by all of you and your thoughtful responses.
I read your posts with much interest too, since it’s quite similar to where I‘ve been, although your LO seems to be/respond a bit more „normal“ than mine.
I had the „advantage“ that my LO left for good, but at the same time that was what triggered the LE in the first place.
I do think one can manage to keep a friendship after limerence, but it’s good if circumstances and LO help a bit. I believe you can make it, Lim-a-rant, but be prepared that the friendship might have changed afterwards, not quite how you envisage it now, since now you still have the limerence glasses on.
Dear L-a-R,
Just a little response to your question from earlier:
“Where you say ‘let go of trying to control interactions’, it suggests letting go around actions as well as thoughts. Did you find that if you got control of the thoughts, the actions simply followed down a good path for you? Or did it need different strategies for each? I am a bit concerned because actions have consequences, and I am still at the point (fairly constant and often unavoidable contact with LO) where I have to control my actions very carefully if I’m not to do one out of disclose, ‘leak’ too much, or ghost – all of which could result in a material change and a worse ending.”
I committed to almost no actions at all when it came to my LO. The barriers were very high, professional relationship, a young family (his side) and family that I was determined not to break up (my side). We almost never saw each other so I just promised myself to never initiate contact (even about work), and to reply minimally. However my imagination still ran riot for years. Despite a complete lack of action, I was giving him too much space inside my head. And so limerence continued. What I needed to do was go further and deny him any space in my head. No rumination over how he had annoyed me (he initiated contact regularly, mostly work and almost always with others included, but it drove my poor brain nuts), no reverie – replaying the old ‘movie reels’ in my head when he was clearly enchanted (Lol), also no obsessing over ‘is he/ isn’t he’ type signs. After a few weeks of deciding that I just didn’t care any longer and I was not going to try to influence things one way or another – even in my own mind, it all just sort of switched itself off. I realise that unlike you and Mila, this was not ‘friend’ situation. I mean, we were definitely friendly, but we had no other relationship outside or pre-dating limerence. I also realise that everything I have suggested worked for me might have been just lucky timing and not a cause and effect. I might have been reaching the end of limerence, naturally after 4-5 years. So it might have happened anyway and my ‘stop caring about LO so much’ thoughts might have been due to limerence fading by itself rather than the other way around. I’ll never know. But what I can say is that I feel liberated and I am so glad to have my poor addled brain back. I also agree with Anna / Anna’s therapist that limerence is part of who I am and that it taught me a lot. I am cool with having had this experience, It was a very wild ride, even though it was painful and over-absorbing. It served it’s purpose in saving me (by providing a gigantic distraction) from a very stressful and far more painful period in my life, and for that I am grateful.
I am not sure I answered your question L-a-R. Practical advice – and this is what you have been doing anyway – can you act ‘friendly’ maintain a degree of friendliness and still manage to not over-analyse and not care too much about what your LO thinks, says and does, just while you are in this period of brain addlement? When it comes to actions, my advice is to do very little, almost nothing, in every situation. Let LO do most of that and just respond minimally enough (and never ever over-analyse it, what they may be thinking in response to your behaviour – we can assume that the default is that they probably haven’t noticed too much).
Sorry if I am teaching grandma to suck eggs here, LaR!
😀
PS I think I might have confused matters by using the word ‘control’ when so little action was involved in my LE. What I meant by “letting go of control” in another post was not overthinking every interaction. I seemed to believe that, on some level, analysis was required to work out whether and how to respond to everything (warm/cold, to do so straight away or wait, let someone else jump in or help out myself, etc). It drove me insane. But I really started to recover once I stopped caring as much and just let it all happen without worrying overly. Anxiety and ruminations just reduced really quickly.
Tangentially, I must day that I had always been concerned with coming out of all this with my dignity intact – plausible deniability, but at the same time, I also wanted to be nice to my LO. I found that I needed to stop trying so hard in that regard.
In addition, he initiated a lot of work with me (not strictly required as part of our working relationship) so I always tried to help him, but then he’d go quiet, and I’d get mad. Although he has quirks that could explain all of this too. But the point is that I needed to stop caring in the negative sense as well. And I needed to stop over thinking why he did or did not do things…. Once I convinced myself that I stopped caring as much, that took on a life of its own and became easier to maintain.
Now even f2f, I could probably be more “normal” with him.
Hi Bewitched,
“Sorry if I am teaching grandma to suck eggs here, LaR!”
😅😅 – not a worry – it is all so helpful!
I typed a long reply, had to come away from it for a while before sending, and now it has vanished in a puff of LwL smoke! I haven’t got time to think / type it all again today, but I will do soon. Very short version – we have both crossovers and differences LE-wise, but every little nugget I get from people here helps, and I do feel some steady, if push-pull, progress is happening. Thank you for now and keep up all your good work 😀
@LaR
“(Snow, I think you’ll be interested too and will have lots to offer).“
I really cannot join your in depth discussions with Mira and Bewitched, I never had either of your experiences — the layered surging and ebbing feelings. My theoretical thoughts would just sound dry and irreverent!
I think what Bewitched has been doing is remarkable, more than I could handle (as I imagine). Mila is out of the LE door physically, but her mind will linger inside the door for a while, which is very NATURAL. Her prior decade of friendship may or may not bring her mind out LE quicker.
Anyway, a long distance is the best NC, in any LE situation, no matter limerents resist LE or not.
Allow me to be frank here: your LO sounds very favorable in your system; she sounds “perfect”, no “flaw” is ever mentioned. Worrying about losing your SO also sounds having a strong component of practicality…. My ESL may make reading comprehension insufficient here, so please don’t get offended if I am wrong.
With you strength, luck in “waddle” out of your LE.
Typo: “Wish you strength, luck in…”
@Snow,
I never find your thoughts dry or irrelevant – you have interesting insight. Your interpretation is not anything to do with ESL reading comprehension – you have made an accurate summary of bits I have presented in different places.
To what you said – i do generally state it like that. It is hard to see LO’s flaws when in the midst of LE, but I can detect them and could list out what they are – but …
they are more things external to the friendship we have than intrinsic to it. Many people on LwL complain justifiably about their LO’s hot and cold behaviour, but it wouldn’t be a fair representation of my LE if I did that. Her behaviour towards me is pretty exemplary for someone who doesn’t know but might suspect, or might not – either way the point stands.
I love my SO to bits and am committed to her. However, we had a tough spell a while back where some stuff was said and done by both of us which takes time to unwind and get past (that’s not rewriting of history for LE rationalisation purposes, it really happened). I might well give more about that on here when I feel ready. At the time, I let LO ‘into the gaps’ (emotionally) more than I meant to, for some solace at the time looking back. Glimmer happened then, and that’s when I could see I had let that get too far. SO and I are working on “flushing through” what happened at that time and getting us back to a better place. I feel pleased about that, but these things do take time.
I hope that little bit of contexts helps you understand better some of the wording i have used. I *have* feared losing my SO, it is true (independent of the LE), so that’s why I might drift towards language about ‘losing’.
I think I do truly ‘get’ what you’re saying in the “let me be frank” bit – that I am more overtly praising of LO of the two here on LwL. I don’t like the fact (the moral bit of me talking again), but it is accurate and the way it is – so I will have to let my inner zen or competing Greek Gods have a think on it!
@LaR,
My new working system has kept me spinning nuts…so many new things to learn…😫 but I did not forget your post.
“It is hard to see LO’s flaws when in the midst of LE, but I can detect them and could list out what they are – but …”… “they are more things external to the friendship we have than intrinsic to it. “
You’re in the midst of your LE, even an ink -dot on your LO’s face would appear like a tiny rose petal in your LE tinted eyes — it’s the effect of Aphrodite’s potion, no surprise! But you could list out all her merits and flaws, external or internal to your friendship, and check within honestly what your Athena say about them… And how did you think/feel about them before your LE? What have changed or remained the same?
“I love my SO to bits and am committed to her.”
When the word “love” (or “hate”) is used, I have vague ideas about what it means to that speaker. Is it a range of emotions or a range of behaviors or what? Are they driven by Hera or Aphrodite? Maybe you can have another list about your love for SO, and examine again within you why you “love” (in emotion or actions) her lovable qualities. To my invisible 👁️ here, your Hera dominates in this arena, not Aphrodite, despite you share bed with her.
“However, we had a tough spell a while back where some stuff was said and done by both of us which takes time to unwind and get past (that’s not rewriting of history for LE rationalisation purposes, it really happened). I might well give more about that on here when I feel ready. “
I think here is perhaps a place for you to dig deeper to unveil possible TRUE underline causes of your LE , like what Anna and I did with our cptsd, which we focused on to solve first with our (self) therapies. Limerence for many limerents (obviously not all) are symptoms for something else in their life (definitely me).
“At the time, I let LO ‘into the gaps’ (emotionally) more than I meant to, for some solace at the time looking back. Glimmer happened then, and that’s when I could see I had let that get too far.”
Then why this LO, not another one? What in her grasped you during LE but were “ignored”/indifferent to you prior to “tough spell” you and SO had?
“SO and I are working on “flushing through” what happened at that time and getting us back to a better place. I feel pleased about that, but these things do take time.”
This has happened to many couples, which can’t be more normal. I’m glad that you two are working constructively on your “spell”.
“I *have* feared losing my SO, it is true (independent of the LE), so that’s why I might drift towards language about ‘losing’.”
“Where your fear is, there is your task.” Well, perhaps understand what your fear is about would help distance you from LE or get closer to SO? What does this fear say about yourself❓Which deity is having the trouble here❓
“I think I do truly ‘get’ what you’re saying in the “let me be frank” bit – that I am more overtly praising of LO of the two here on LwL. “
Viewing LO as a walking god/dess is quite normal by definitions of LE, the worse is that clearly seeing LO with some “demonic” flaws, some limerents still couldn’t/can’t pull themselves out of LE (like me)… So far, your “illusion” is sparing you from some mysterious LE pains!
“I don’t like the fact (the moral bit of me talking again), but it is accurate and the way it is – so I will have to let my inner zen or competing Greek Gods have a think on it!”
Please try to avoid using the word, “morality”, but different Greek deities to describe your mental/emotional stages — there is no fundamental “right” or “wrong” in any of them. Instead, ASK yourself at a given time or situation/dynamic, “who is talking now❓” Or “whose voice is stronger”❓ Why❓
Again, no god/dess could kill another one; they have to co-exist, so harmonizing their “lives” to avoid “wars” is our mortals’ tasks…
Snow,
Thanks for the reply. No worries about being busy. Glad the new job is keeping you purposeful. I see talk of possible (within brain) transfers in another post. Is that cheeky Aphrodite paying you a little visit?
I haven’t asked you much in our dialogues about your last LE. On older posts I read the bit about your brave disclosure with interest, and then you going away to your COO and cleansing your soul. What is your contact status with him now, since disclosure? Would you say he no longer holds the LO label for you? (No need to answer anything you prefer not to)
Your point about the ink dot or rose petal on my LO’s face made me howl (now who’s the wolf?!) with laughter.
“Then why this LO, not another one? What in her grasped you during LE but were“ignored”/ indifferent to you prior (to tough spell)”
Snow, I could honestly write you a dissertation in answer to this question. I have journals about it as long as dissertations. It is such a good and important question to work on, along with how said tough spell arose and what it triggered in me. I will have a ponder how to distil the answer down into something of a suitable length to put here. The really short version is my LO “saw me”, invested more in me and understood exactly what I needed from a friend at the time. There is lots more but it boils down to being seen, understood and needed. Which it almost goes without saying were most probably laçking with SO at that rockier stage in our relationship… and are the things she and I can and do now work more on, both ways round.
I will get back to the Greek Gods stuff when I have more time, as I enjoy looking at it through that lens!
Hope you have a restful weekend.
@LaR
“I see talk of possible (within brain) transfers in another post. Is that cheeky Aphrodite paying you a little visit?”
Oh yeah! Without limerence (which god/dess drives it?) hanging in my system, Aphrodite is roaming around with ease, but Athena is tailing along with a high alert, in case Aphrodite’s vanity loses a control and starts to flirt inappropriately with the fanning of cheeky Hermes.
Still, with subtle, cautious winkling of Aphrodite’s eyes, the sexy Romeo, the orange-haired pupil, and the new charming kiddo all gave her seductive smiles…. Hermes is giggling🤭 Athena is sweating 😓 Apollo is plucking his lyre 🎻, and Zeus is forced to learn about this idiot AI who thinks itself a new Universe master or a Godlike LO! (My Hera and Hestia had an early retirement…)
“The really short version is my LO “saw me”, invested more in me and understood exactly what I needed from a friend at the time. There is lots more but it boils down to being seen, understood and needed.”
Ah, that universal desire to be validated — “to be seen, understood, and needed”! This brings me back to my dialogues with Trifles and Sammy: every men and women NEEDs to validate himself/herself FIRST and feel very comfortable in his/her own dirt-smeared shoes — Period, regardless how the external world views/treats them, including their SOs. As long as one seeks, even subconsciously, validation externally, his/her insecurity and fear would never LEAVE him/her! Evoke your Hephaestus (a Stoic) who always makes the best swords and armors despite his wife, Aphrodite’s wonton behaviors all over the universe!
No one, including SO with his/her own internal complex life, can validate us 24/7, or even 8/7. So when we cannot get it from SO, we WILL automatically, (sub)consciously seek it elsewhere, then a LO could “magically” suddenly arrive, even though s/he was already there before, but only platonic or even “invisible”.
To desire being seen, heard, understood, validated, and needed is very understandable; but to NEED it would make one insecure and “weak”… When one has a strong validation of ONESELF, one finds peace and joy, and would be generous to give validation to other worthy mind/heart. When one lacks it, one can’t spare any validation even to one’s own SO.
Perhaps you could contemplate a bit about the “spell” between you and your SO from my outsider’s perspective? Did you give enough relevant validation that your SO desired and wanted? Hera’s job is never easy but she’s responsible and resourceful. Enlist your Athena to help in this domain as well….
“ Your vision will become clear only when you can look into your own heart. Who looks outside, dreams, who looks inside, awakes.” — C. Jung
First, See, hear, understand, validate, need your own Self (the capital F with all conscious and subconscious components encompassed), then you’d have NO fear. Then, you can truly connect with others and your beloved who is ABLE to appreciate and want the Whole of you.
Hi Snow,
With my last answer to you, I knew I was trying to boil it down into the ‘Tweet’ answer instead of the ‘dissertation’, and that by ommitting context I would present a very incomplete picture. I am still thinking about the highly important questions you raised about ‘why this
LO, then?’ and about events with SO and within myself at that time. As you know, these matters cut to the heart of any LE. It is a big job to think through, let alone write out, but I will no doubt say more eventually.
For now I just want to say I think it is about a lot more than a need for external validation. That’s not that strong in me. I did a lot of work years ago in therapy on childhood things. Since then I have been able to self-validate much more. I am not saying there is not still work to be done, because there always is. I can see how my incomplete explanation last time led you to think my LE was mainly about validation. I used words which steered it this way. It might be a factor in my LE for sure, but I think there are many more too.
“Enlist Athena to help”
Please can you explain a bit more the perspective that Athena would bring to events (not my events specifically, but where she’d come from in general). My Greek History is not what yours is, but I like the framing it brings so am keen to learn. And if there are other deities I should consult (in your view), please go ahead and say which!
@LaR
“Please can you explain a bit more the perspective that Athena would bring to events (not my events specifically, but where she’d come from in general). My Greek History is not what yours is, but I like the framing it brings so am keen to learn. And if there are other deities I should consult (in your view), please go ahead and say which!“
I did not study Greek history at all, only read the most popular mythological stories — Mount Olympian gods and goddess, and studied Homer line by line in college here. From Joseph Campbell, I learned that all deities of various cultures represent/map out human psychologies or watch over mental aspects of their mortal life (various Buddhistic deities in COO). Please take my words for authenticity, it’s just my own interpretations.
Athena to me symbolizes a combination of a philosopher, psychologist, personal coach. Not only she has insight of one’s naked psychological bodies, but also sees some of one’s Unconscious, which the logical mind could not discern, even if s/he can analyze and understand all their night dreams.
Athena aims at obtaining wisdom for one’s true, lasting wellbeing, while Hera eyeing on power, fame, wealth, marriage, stability and vindication, Aphrodite insatiating beauty, vanity, pleasure, instinctual needs/desires. These three powerful goddesses are jealous of each other, affecting, manipulating Zeus as well. Apollo signifies imagination, creativity, Muses, music, poetry, prophecy.
Hermes associates with intelligence, teaching/messenger, mischiefs, trickster, humor; Demeter sadness, grief, depression, despair; Ares contempt, anger, impatience, aggression, ; Hephaestus excellent craftsmen, self-reliability, confidence, Stoic; Dionysus nature, joy, celebration, singing, dancing, wild freedom. These are primary gods/goddesses most people deal with frequently; and you can guess who are my top three!
IMO, to evoke Athena, one needs to dive really deep within, particularly shadow areas, truly being honest about what one feels, desires, fears, hates and ask their whys and hows, even if it’s “Oh, that woman walking on the sidewalk looks stunning, I want to take her to bed now…”. Majority of emotions rarely stay stable but come and go (70,000-80,000 thoughts per day); so don’t overly worry or resist their intrusion.
Once we explore those territories and truly accepts our evolving selfs (many faces), one’s personal Athena (not anyone else’s) would guide us with her insights, wisdom, and intuition. Athena focuses on one’s long-term, overall mental health, not our innate desires and instant gratification ➡️ Aphrodite’s domain. Apollo and his 9 pupil Muses would take our soul to imaginatively soar, even beyond our mortal world.
I don’t know your reality or past, so cannot pinpoint how Athena, or other Greek deities could work together help you waddle through your LE and make LO, SO, and yourself all satisfied/happy — a truly tall order! 😓
I wish you a good luck and ample wisdom to conquer your LE challenges. ✌️
Typo: “ Please DO NOT take my words for authenticity, it’s just my own interpretations.”
“ Hera eyeing on power, fame, wealth, marriage, stability, vindication, jealousy and vindictiveness.”
Add: Athena could be overly serious, watchful, anxious, humorless. Hermes is needed along with Apollo, occasionally Dionysus.
NO god/goddess is flawless!
EVERY mortal has Achilles’ heel!
Hi Snow,
Thanks for everything in that reply. Some of it, I still working through in my head, so I’m not yet ready to verbalise. But I can expand a bit on previous answers, and make a start on some of your other questions.
“Then why this LO, not another one? What in her grasped you during LE but were “ignored”/indifferent to you prior to “tough spell” you and SO had?”
I maybe need to correct a few things I’ve said about my LE that, on reflection, my previous LwL postings don’t represent quite accurately – and would lead me/one to question whether it was ever “ignored/ indifferent”.
I’ve said before that LO glimmered when I first knew her 10+ years ago, but that I managed to suppress and forget about it enough to become platonic friends. It never got to even a strong crush then, let alone limerence. Now I have thought more, that’s only partly true. LO ticked many boxes for ‘my type’ at that first glimmer point. But she was in a relationship with someone then, and I squashed the glimmer (successfully for ages) because of not wanting to mess with someone unavailable. But Aphrodite had already fired those initial arrows – though quite quietly – in LO’s direction.
I then got together with SO – also very much ‘my type’ – and Aphrodite redirected all her efforts towards her for a long time. While I formed a genuine platonic friendship with LO over that period, I guess, being really honest, I did still pereceive a small ‘threat level’ (if threat is the right word) that my feelings for LO could re-ignite and cause me a conflict of interest. This meant I had a strict and ‘conservative’ set of boundaries for what the relationship with LO could and couldn’t be. I observed those for many years. If she ever tried to push them, I held firm or pulled back.
What went on with my SO during “the spell”, I have not quite worked through enough that I’m ready to lay out here yet. All I’d like to say for now is that we both had (separate) stressful life events going on, which neither of us responded to in quite the way that the other needed – I feel we had lost a bit of how to ‘be there’ for each other around that time.
“Ah, that universal desire to be validated — “to be seen, understood, and needed”!”
I was perhaps too dismissive of this idea in my last reply. I think we all have this desire to different extents. I can see how my words shaped your reply. But two points stand. The first is that I had used therapy to get past the worst of the childhood ‘hangovers’ and come to be able to validate my own actions a lot more than younger adult me could. Second, LO has always validated me since I first knew her – so her validation was nothing new.
So that brings us back to the question of “why her, THEN?”. There is the obvious hole mentioned above of communication issues between SO and I, then. But also something changed in what I perceived from LO. I sensed her behaviours change, and interpreted it as attraction signals – the first time I had sensed that. I might well have been wrong (still no evidence either way – easiest to assume I was wrong). But it is what I sensed all the same.
So many people’s stories at LwL say that they think a glimmer has its roots in some (real or imagined) signals of attraction from the LO. It was like for me, that signal reawakened the dormant smaller glimmer from earlier times. The second glimmer hit me like a train and meant the boundaries I had set up and carefully observed for years practically just collapsed overnight. I just ran with my instincts for a while and leant into how LO was with me, instead of pushing back against it like previously. For clarity, there has never been a PA or anything close to one, and I don’t want that. Whether it has been an EA is more debatable – possibly, depending on the criteria – it meets some but not all of them. That’s where I let boundaries down anyway, emotionally (all be it not all boundaries).
I would say in the period after the second glimmer there was a spell where I acted like I was almost removed from my own mind, then a realisation phase of ‘what on earth am I doing?’, then a phase of trying to put the boundaries back together. They are much harder to put back together than to put together in the first place, or to dismantle.
“Enlist your Athena to help in this domain as well….”
Athena has been on a rollercoaster trying to keep Aphrodite in check over the LE. Athena is discombobulated and tired but also tells me to just sit and let things wash over me for a bit. Her wisdom does tell me this – any comparisons I make between the relationships I have with SO and with LO is not a fair one. SO has lived with and known every facet of me for years, and vice versa. It is a real relationship based in real experience, and it is worth a lot. We have a lot of fun together and a lot of common interests. The relationship with LO is not merely a fantasy relationship (the friendship phase tells me that). However, the Phantom and Real versions of LO seem closer together than you have described your versions of them. Yet they are still different. LO and I have mainly just showcased the ‘glimmery veneer’ that we want to show to each other. This is not our whole selves – she does not ‘know’ me as SO knows me, nor will we get to the point where she does in the current limbo. Athena remains wise to all this.
“But you could list out all her merits and flaws, external or internal to your friendship, and check within honestly what your Athena say about them…”
Exactly – the flaws are there in LO (a written list does exist), they are just not currently displayed in my direction. And Athena knows that, in a hypothetical other world where LO and I were together, after the honeymoon period the flaws WOULD come out in my direction, and that they would raise quite big orange flags. So Athena tells me that that future is not the promised land that the limerence-glasses (or Aphrodite) would tell me it is. Athena believes that the list in question, could be a way to control and redirect Aphrodite, as it was written at a point when she (Athena) was having a very lucid moment.
“Perhaps you could contemplate a bit about the “spell” between you and your SO from my outsider’s perspective? Did you give enough relevant validation that your SO desired and wanted?”
A tricky but on-point question. Across the relationship, I think so. During “the spell” – probably not, but not for the want of trying. Since LE – I haven’t stopped trying, but no – I can’t put my hand on heart and say I have given enough validation while so much of my brain has been hijacked. It has taken most me just to live on ‘auto-pilot’ – and SO has surely noticed. I have been trying to attend to it mindfully lately.
Underneath this there is the fact that SO has quite big difficulties with self-validation that affect all areas of her life and can often be externalised (not rewriting history – something that has come up since the start and predates my time with her). I have to strike a balance as her SO between providing a fair amount of authentic validation, and not pressuring myself or feel pressurised into also providing more validation to compensate for what she can’t give herself. I hope that’s a fair thing to say without it sounding too mean. I try to help her with self-validation, and have also suggested she could do some therapeutic work on it like I have – but that needs to be her decision if she ever does, not something I push.
And I think this point can be looked at as a ‘thing’ over the life of the relationship. I don’t want to conflate it with an excuse for my decline in providing validation through the early stages bit of my LE – which is separate and is one I have already acknowledged and take responsibility for.
—-
I found this comment on an older post and wondered if you’d seen it? It is another take on how different kinds of love can seem to co-exist – contrasting ‘the love we choose’ (SO) with ‘the love we feel’ (LO) – but also if you dig deeper into the thread the comment was in, which is all interesting, the same poster also gets into how the ‘love’ with LO is based on false premises.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/how-to-tell-someone-you-just-want-to-be-friends/#comment-41779
Thanks for ‘listening’ to my ramblings here in👻 land. I know you won’t – but please don’t feel obliged to try and answer every point or help me ‘solve’ things. Just writing it out like this to an imagined audience is a big part both of sitting with it and working through it. I also like your ‘waddle out’ analogy 🦆 – if I can waddle, then I’ll be happy!
@LaR
A quick response to your long post —
“Every man needs two women: a quiet home-maker, and a thrilling nymph” — Iris Murdoch
“Every woman needs two men –one to be married to and the other to compare.” — French Proverb
To be continued….
Snow,
You’re clearly not wrong … I just did a an ‘inventory’ and am bit shocked that I can count 11 LOs across my life – and I am only about halfway through it (hopefully anyway!). It was a good exercise to do (and just the start) as it refocuses me further away from current LO and more into my internal amd external limeremce triggers.
Two of those are kind of ‘LO X.5’ as you have put it before, so maybe there are 9 full ones. I am very clearly a serial limerent!
The LE’s are all between 4 months and 2 years duration apart from a curious one in the middle who has persisted on some level (co-existed quietly with others in my mind) for an incredible 25 years despite NC.
Other ‘headlines’- there are two I am
still friends with, three I feel I could fall limerent for again, and the LEs have ended through a mix of transfers (2), LC (2) and NC (6, half of which I disclosed to).
Two others of these LEs have happened while I have been with SO. The first one ended in a mutual disclosure, but we were both with SOs so we shut it down with agreed NC. The second I did strict LC then NC with, and it faded. Both of them were intrusive but nothing compared to current LE in intensity or duration. There was then a big gap in the middle of mine and SO’s relationship where I was blissfully free from any LE for maybe 5 years before current LO. The gap is probably of interest in itself.
I’ll keep working on it!
Snow, (or anyone else with a view)
“Every man needs two women: a quiet home-maker, and a thrilling nymph” — Iris Murdoch
Surely it has to be possible
to invest both these qualities in the same woman (or, so as not to make this a point about gender, whatever the male equivalents would be). If that wasn’t possible, why are there so
many marriages out there that succeed?
I know we see many stories here at LwL where the two come unmoored. By virtue of the fact it is a site about limerence curated by someone who openly said he got limerent while married, it is bound to lean this way. But there are loads of marriages out there that seem, at least, not to have limerence jump in and interrupt.
Is it really that unrealistic to think we could invest all our different types of love in the same person?
Hi Bewitched,
More of a reply as promised to replace the message that self-deleted.
Please don’t worry about trying to give a ‘right’ answer as that’s not what this was about! It isn’t quickly solvable in a way that would work. I take nuggets from many people on here that all help in little ways. Managing it responsibly is the order of my day, and on that, progress is occurring!
No two LEs are the same. We have similar but different experiences. I have to maintain a lot of the emotional barriers with LO – it isn’t done for me. I present a different set of circumstances to many here at LwL – LO in close proximity, quite forward, the whole ‘friend before’ bit. I’ve worked out with Mila that where we differ is that her LO was the more passive – mine isn’t passive but I am more so. In this situation I have to be very purposeful about and aware of the effects of my actions.
What I said above relates only to emotional boundaries. LO totally respects physical ones. Also respects my relationship with SO and accepts without question when I can’t give time or energy. A well established set of unspoken rules that keeps everything ‘safe’ but also makes it harder to break away. If I walked with a veiled hint as to why, she’d get it and accept it. One day I may decide to. For now, its not what I want or what she (as friend) would deserve.
I look at how you suggest handling it and do think ‘yeah LaR, actually you are doing OK at all of that and moving the right way’. Getting to this stage of being accepting of the experience and my handling of it is probably a good step to getting the thinking to calm down. I can feeI I am focusing less now on LO and her actions (I have ignored a text this whole evening – i want one of those LwL ‘small victories’ t-shirts 😅 ) and I’m doing more of the necessary introspection on what in me and my life caused the LE.
On the thought-action relationship, what I take from the exchange and also Anna’s point is that if thoughts are allowed to come and go with less opposition, then actions will begin to happen more naturally too.
I think (or at least hope) it is easier for you to keep to “don’t act” with a little more distance. It sounds like you’ve made huge progress.
“limerence is part of who I am and that it taught me a lot. I am cool with having had this experience, It was a very wild ride, even though it was painful and over-absorbing. It served it’s purpose in saving me (by providing a gigantic distraction) from a very stressful and far more painful period in my life, and for that I am grateful.
On almost all of that (circumstances and opinions), we are very similar. The turbocharge that limerence gave me kept me productive through a raft of tricky circumstamces (family and work issues etc) and ironically distracted enough from some of them for a spell that it allowed me to make more reasoned decisions about them. In another irony, SO respects LO’s support for me as a friend through that, about which I’ve been upfront with her (though obviously I have kept my limerent feelings to myself). So I’ll never jump on the “limerence is all bad” wagon. But once through the initial high and into the reality and the rollercoaster, I do find it can have more cons than pros. I’m managing the best I can and however it pans out, will pull through – and thank you for chipping in your wise thoughts.
@ Lim-a-rant
Hi, sorry it took me so long to reply, I was traveling for work.
Yes, I did work with my therapist on a method to try and control my thought/emotions/feelings a while ago during the tail end of my LE.
I was a wreck and cognitive dissonance was at the max.
In my opinion this is the most distressing component of Limerence. It was for me anyway.
Because feelings follow thought so quickly I didn’t think I would be able to overcome it.
Then she introduced me to the art of Compartmentalization.
(the act of separating something into parts & not allowing those parts to mix together) yeah, I think you know what that is LOL
I didn’t think I had a chance in hell of even attempting that but with some work I really did get some results! Trying to retrain your brain is tough!
What it did for me was I could take a pause between my thoughts before they turned into emotion/feelings. I could create some space and really think about how I could/should react.
Like separating the two into their own boxes. I know it sounds strange, but it really did work!
(There is lots of info on-line about this, might be worth your while to check some of it out)
After reading your post here I can tell you have some cognitive dissonance going on as well.
It’s tough, I know but I really do think that you are at the point (where I was) that something needs to be done.
I have the luxury (for lack of a better word) of being able to go NC with my LO.
So, I don’t have any interaction with them whatsoever. Maybe that makes my road to recovery a little easier.
The Limerence is still there but how I REACT to it has changed and still is changing. I do believe that changing our reactions is the key.
It sounds that you cannot go NC with your LO but just trying to take a pause before you start to react can make a difference.
I think that might help when you feel you have to “determine your actions” you have too may thoughts bouncing around in your head.
I know exactly what you mean by that because I was doing the same thing. Walking on eggshells.
Like your whole life may depend on if you do/say the wrong thing to her, like she might disappear if you get it wrong. right? (I might be wrong about that, excuse me if I am)
I am now practicing letting the thoughts/feelings/emotions just flow through me. I’m giving it all free range, letting it just roam around in my head without the knee-jerking reactions.
I am now at the point that I’m able to let these thoughts/emotions/feelings out of their compartmentalized boxes.
I’m not saying it’s easy because it goes against our natural lizard brain reactions, trying to protect itself. But it can be done.
I do hope I made some sense here, I tend to ramble.
And I also hope that maybe it might help you in some way.
This is what I love about this little Limerence Blog Sanctuary.
We are all here for each other.
Hi Anna,
Thank you for such a kindly put, thought out and detailed reply. Don’t worry if replies take time – lives are busy.
A lot of my cognitive dissonance is with being over a year in limerence while with a long term SO. I try to manage the situation as responsibly as I can (it is a lot of my own making, after all), by balancing up what feels right and the needs of the different people involved. I won’t dwell on or repeat anything that I have already said to others in the threads above. But no, I can’t have NC for more than a couple of weeks at most.
I trawled old posts on LwL for ages before ever posting, but don’t think I ever saw the beginnings of your story. I’ve got in my head that your LO has narcisisstic tendencies and wasn’t good for you. This process of separating thought from emotion and response that you’ve built in therapy sounds such a powerful tool for unpicking the limerent feelings amd thoughts from the reality that romanticising this guy isn’t good for you. Sorry if I have any detail wrong.
I did CBT a couple of years back for some different (non LE) mental health challenges, so am familiar with separating thought, feelings, emotions, actions etc. It helped me at the time and since. I have been applying it to my LE lately – and I am becoming more able to separate ‘LO’ from ‘LE’ if that makes any sense! To interrogate more the reasons while LE is there, but also just be more OK that it’s been there. I do pause before acting, but LO has the pull of a magnet, so it takes strength to act against it.
Now you can ‘decompartmentalise’ your thoughts, feelings and emotions, what’s the result for your LE? Are you completely NC or just responding and worrying about it less? It sounds like it has really helped you move on, and I’m glad.
Did you get lucky with finding a therapist who understands limerence, or did you go seeking one with a strategy in mind?
My LE is very different to yours. LO has never once shown me narcisisstic or manipulative behaviours. This is true even when I make effort to separate the fantasy from the reality. So most of *my* cognitive dissonance and need to push against lizard brain relates to how to keep the boundary right. The more I can give my thoughts space, the more I can see that LO just treats me as a good friend, and that I also have the choice to respond exactly as a good friend would.
So it is very different from your situation, but interesting to see what they have in common.
“Like your whole life may depend on if you do/say the wrong thing to her, like she might disappear if you get it wrong. right?”
I really feel for you if you went through a lot of this. I do go through it, massively. And that’s even despite the fact she’s never done anything that would reasonably suggest she’d disappear on me. My brain has done all that planting of the thought / putting the eggshells on the path. This one is diminishing for me as I assemble a bigger and bigger bank of contrary evidence, but still pops up sometimes (when there is non agreed NC, mainly). I do find myself less prone to worrying about small things – just as a trivial example if I don’t get a reply to a text for a period of time. For ages I would have ruminated “what have I done wrong?” but now I can be more like “she’s busy, she’ll get there eventually, like every time before”. Or better still, often talk myself out of sending the initiating text. Rambling on LwL is ever such a helpful text-prevention strategy 😅
I sometimes think I get more sympathy here on LwL than I deserve, as this is a “situation my head made” and as I am in a relationship. Your reply is definitely an example of that, so thank you for being understanding – its complicated for all parties involved. I think from the few bits of your story I’ve seen, that your LO’s behaviours did have a big part to play, and it wasn’t all your brain tricking you.
Keep on moving in good directions Anna. Vent here anytime you need!
Hi Mila, just to say that I’m glad you are in a good headspace after the farewell dinner.
I’m sure you hosted beautifully, and your thoughtful gift was well received.
Also, you know you will see your friend again, albeit with a different dynamic and at greater distance ( in every sense of the word).
Knowing this hopefully takes away any of that insidious uncertainty that can be such a trigger for us limerent souls.
Wishing you all the best Mila. You have been a real support to me here as so many others on LwL too.
I know you will ask after me 😀, so I’m currently trying to get my head straight and get out of the limerent fog & LwL clouds, which I have been using as a distraction from what I should be doing in the real world, as it’s getting serious. It’s not easy but I’m trying to feel the fear and crack on anyway !
Hi Imho,
it sounds as if there’s a professional or familiar challenge ahead?
Whatever it is, you can do it, from what my impression of you is.
I wish you strength and good luck!
„Knowing this hopefully takes away any of that insidious uncertainty that can be such a trigger for us limerent souls.“
At the moment there’s uncertainty for me why he stopped texting too after this dinner (has he similar goals and needs closure? Did a respond too coldly to his thank you text? Etc), but I try to just ignore it. I know I’ll see him again, but still I won’t see him on common ground again, from now on it will always be a „guest appearance“ situation, never again living almost in neighborhood or being colleagues. I try to acknowledge this and at the same time accept it and not ruminate.
Imho, I wish you all the best for everything you want to achieve, be it professional or in your LE.
Hi all,
this is just a ramble to clear my head.
Tomorrow is LO‘s moving day, and I was prepared to send a good luck message.
Now that we both didn’t initiate any texting since our two texts the night after the farewell dinner, which breaks the pattern of texting almost daily until then, I‘m not sure if I should text at all.
Maybe he wants closure like me, and it would be better to leave it all be as it is? I was the last to text (with a good night, he might have understood that as a sign to stop texting), so would it be better to just leave it to him to text next time, if he wants to start it again at all? And thus acknowledge the significance of stopping to text?
Or should I just act again as to any other friend and send good wishes for moving, with the danger of being the one who initiates the texting again?
Bewitched, I know I shouldn‘t care and just do something or not do it without thinking too much about his reaction, but suddenly it seems important in this special situation.
I also know that no one can give advice here because I‘m the only one to judge the situation right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o_0nCdKk7E
Now you had me in tears, the first I shed after this goodbye. Because it really doesn’t matter in 100 years. But then, none of us or what we did, if we are happy or not, if our families are ok, anything, it won’t matter in 100 years, and at the moment- I‘m kind of mentally exhausted and also physically not well- that’s a rather sad and lonely thought.
It still felt good to finally cry a bit, and thank you very much for this. You‘ve got an ear for music and good singers, haven’t you.
You’re welcome for making you cry 😊
And at the same time, I’m sorry about causing you existential dread… here’s another one of my favorite songs for you that’s about connection and meaning:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E5488fUMLXs
If you like it, you might also like the acoustic version:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KW0kE6mucFY
And yeah, music has always been one of the main ways I connect with both my own feelings and with other people. Actually my LO made me promise yesterday that under no circumstances will I send her recordings of me singing to her ever again (even if she makes requests), because it makes her feel too much… I might break that promise on the day she leaves, but not before then.
Hi LiS,
Thanks, I don’t feel so lonely any more😌
In return I‘ll send you my favorite version of a classic tune you might know – it’s only instrumental, I know you favour a mellow voice with guitar, but you can add the quite interesting text in your head and play the guitar yourself:)
It’s rather long but I use it sometimes to calm myself down.
Now I forgot to add the link🙄
https://youtu.be/_k9bzHNfRCk?si=f96K1JXcVTgJd1UR
Thanks Mila, I listened to this song this morning while taking my kids to school and it made me feel peaceful and happy. Hope you’re doing well today!
Thanks LiS, I‘m quite ok concerning my LE. My LO keeps texting,but I feel quite calm and detached.
More worried about headaches and general burned-out feeling just before starting the work season. But it‘ll all get better, I hope.
Dear Mila,
I think if I were you, I would accept the gift that providence has placed into your lap and not text him. The reasons are that you already had a natural end (his departure, finally, and after much umm-ing and arrr-ing) to your collective daily texting rhythm that was not actually doing you any good since many were auto-pilot / meaningless and just wound you up.
Reason 2. As you wound things up nicely already and put a bow on it, via your weekend efforts, more effort now risks diminishing returns – a cold or indifferent response – always a risk – leaves a sour taste.
Thirdly, you have not heard from him, who knows why but many plausible reasons abound.
I say “leave sleeping dogs lie”, but it is up to you, of course.
By the way, I would not let this
“Or should I just act again as to any other friend and send good wishes for moving” put you off.
Unfortunately he is still not in the category of “normal friend” because if he were, you wouldn’t be second-guessing yourself. Cut yourself some slack and allow yourself to leave him alone??
And also thank you very much for this, Bewitched, I read it before listening to LiS‘ „answer“ and together these really made an impact.
I can gauge my own innermost feeling for what I should do, when I read an advice, my gut reaction will be either „that’s not what I wanted to hear“ or „yes, that’s it“. I had the latter now. It might of course change tomorrow, but just now I think you are very right.
It feels more right to just leave it all be instead of starting a lukewarm and superficial texting streak again.
Could well be that he is in blissful ignorance of my not-texting and will send some photo of the move or new house soon. React or not react, o mighty Pythia?😌
I know you cannot answer this for me, so I‘ll try to sleep now..
Thanks Bewitched!!❤️I cannot express how much this response helped me now.
Don’t Expect Me To Be Your Friend — Lobo
https://youtu.be/Zir11p4oCFI?si=s6_eX00p_W7Io0TD
And also you, Adam, thank you very much!
While I do think I’ll be able to just be his friend soon, just now it might be the best to honor the kind of feeling in this song and use it to create a necessary distance between us before maybe returning to friendship.
You are all such good persons to answer me with such thoughtful responses although you don’t know me. I really should stop crying now and sleep😂
Mila, I wonder if I may be off base on this assumption, but in general I find more of these songs of “just being friends” coming from male artists over female artists. I wonder if men have a harder time moving on from unrequited love than women?
This song hits hard for me because when I was young … before I met Momma I had this happen to me. And it is one of the most devastating emotions. And then it happen again with her. Though not to such a hurtful extent as I knew her gentleman friend was good to her.
“You always act so happy when I see you
You smile that way, take my hand and then
introduce me to your latest lover
that’s when I feel the walls come crashing in”
https://youtu.be/IvRnrIv3mpM?si=6sXeCrBd1P7TClTj
Adam,
I remember when LO2 presented me with his „latest lover“ after having been single the whole time we knew each other. Or he didn’t present her, he just brought her to a party and hid. Time to hold my head up high and present myself to her.
It’s tough.
Since this is a coffeehouse and DrL turned off the comments on the “Freedom from Limerence” articles (grrrr…), I’ll post this here.
I just realized that LO #2 turned 70 last Friday and I blew right past it until, for some reason, it popped into my head this morning. I took her through 30 and she did not take that milestone well. She was a CCU nurse and age/mortality loomed large in her psyche. Before I stopped following her on social media a few years ago, she looked really good for her age. But, she’s putting some obvious effort into it. Her hair color changed years ago and I’d bet she’s had some other work done.
We went to Vancouver, BC and spent the weekend at the Georgian Court Hotel. LO #2’s libido was directly tied to the rating of the hotel we stayed in. It was an expensive weekend.
I wonder how she took this milestone.
Ehhh, not my problem.
„LO #2’s libido was directly tied to the rating of the hotel we stayed in. It was an expensive weekend.
I wonder how she took this milestone.
Ehhh, not my problem.“
😂first laugh of today for me, LE!
Hi LE,
Pity the Freedom from Limerence blog is closed for comments since, that’s where I am headed, I hope.
He just contacted me again after almost 4 months NC so who knows how this is going to play out.
Maybe I am better off in the coffeehouse.
Re: your LO#2’s significant birthday, I do think that nothing hits as hard as 60 for women and probably men too. I think that is when “the reckoning” happens. Maybe it can happen earlier than that but certainly I’d imagine she would be done with most of that by 70?
Good luck with that contact, Bewitched. I‘d be interested to hear if you feel also better during contact? I would guess so!
Mine did text too today, much like I predicted.
I answered with a nice, not too short text without questions that made an answer quite unnecessary, got Emojis back and that’s it for now.
Dear Mila,
It sounds as though both of us have had an interaction that is “classic”.
Your interaction was classic – him texting a fairly impersonal but nicely innocuous (I am ok, we are ok) message. You replying and then getting an emoji back from him. An interaction just like ye always had!
My interaction after NC was also a classic. Him showing that he’s made progress on some work we shared and that was long forgotten. So he has made some recent effort. My effort way back on this was unresponded to (spent ages on it then heard nothing). That is a classic interaction. That would have wound me up before, but now I don’t care, I think. When he got in touch, my first thought was “this is vaguely thrilling”, my second thought was “it was kind of nice not hearing from him”. I never thought I’d say that.
Hi Bewitched,
exactly, exactly, very classic. Mine texted again today, he just goes on in the same vein as before. It’s on the hand as you describe it, it was kind of liberating not to hear from him, but on the other hand it’s kind of sweet how he always insists on going on with this kind of contact. I resorted now to answering friendly without encouraging further texts. We sent each other photos from our respective holidays or what we were doing, I think I let him send his photos, react friendly, but won’t send any of mine. It will all slowly go down a bit his way, I guess.
I’m much calmer regarding LE, maybe because I have a constant headache going on and not much energy to spare.
What you describe is also where I was at in the end- recognizing that he will never change, it will always be the classic behavior, he wants some pat on the head for making progress on your project, or he suddenly feels he wants some contact so he uses work, but doesn’t acknowledge your progress or thinks about what would be sensitive or polite in terms of contact. (just guessing, you can insert any kind of classic pattern you have in mind). Finally accepting that there’s no hope of him breaking that pattern made me give up on my limerent hopes.
*”on the one hand” and “it will slowly go down this way”. Sorry
Mila,
Headaches that don’t go away sound familiar. These increased for me around perimenopause and were migraines, basically. Associated with estrogen drop, which I figured out as I got them for a few days a month. It gets more pronounced in perimenopause as estrogen is lower then. When this happens I need to bring in the big guns (pain relief) and use neurofen plus capsules. Only the capsules work for me and my normal headache medicine (which is aspirin) is not enough. Anyway, I hope you feel better. Live in the moment if you can. No wishing things away. I am currently in denial about end of Summer (still loving the relatively “quiet time” of year….)
Hi Bewitched,
that’s interesting. While I think my headache is definitely related to neck/back tension and this is related to my job and also to traveling/sleeping in strange beds etc, I had it two times now around the same time in the cycle (around the middle) that these problems got severe.
Thanks!
Well, this condition makes living in the moment not so pleasant, I have to say, but it doesn’t encourage limerent thoughts either.
It does make a big difference that LO is safely at a big distance now.
There’s a chance to visit him when I’ll be near his new town for work in September, but I don’t really want to and most probably won’t. He might be in town late in the year, and I’m not looking forward but not dreading it either. I seem tired of this LE, it cost me too much energy.
Did you ask a doctor about your migraines? Maybe there’s something that could help besides pain relief.
Hi Mila,
“What you describe is also where I was at in the end- recognizing that he will never change, it will always be the classic behavior, he wants some pat on the head for making progress on your project, or he suddenly feels he wants some contact so he uses work, but doesn’t acknowledge your progress or thinks about what would be sensitive or polite in terms of contact. (just guessing, you can insert any kind of classic pattern you have in mind). Finally accepting that there’s no hope of him breaking that pattern made me give up on my limerent hopes”
I need to get something off my chest as LO has nitiated contact again this week.
It is not absorbing me, but is does bother me a little. Our interaction was a “classic” one. The classic pattern played out like this: as you know my LE (like yours) is a work based one. We don’t have (much / any) contact outside of work. He put in effort on initiating a project, he did some work on it, I helped by doing some work on it too; he went quiet (replied to others vague feedback on both our work but not to me). After a few months he needed me to do more work and asked nicely but minimised how much work was involved (it took much longer than he thought and I told him so, and it was super-tedious). But I did it and sent it back – he never replied. Months and months later, it returns, he has made more effort and it looks good now but he needs more work form me. I drop everything to do it, send it back and he doesn’t acknowledge, not even a ‘thanks can’t look at this now’. I would find this a bit hard to take from anyone, nothing to do with limerent over-thinking.
The fact that it happens from someone that I am limerent for, is torture. But, like I mentioned before, he has his quirks. I always try to be the bigger person and be helpful when I can as lots of people don’t respond to him. Sometimes when he asks, I just need to say ‘No’ outright and stick with it but when I promise something, I always deliver. We who did most work will get credit eventually on this work – along a whole load of people who did nothing. But that’s life. Its not fair and I dont mind (too much) about that.
So you see, he is nice, warm and kind, but thoughtless too. Far more thoughtless, at times, than other work male work colleagues who are emotionally far more validating just with brief ‘thanks’ and, ‘sorry to give you this extra work’ remarks.
Sometimes I wish he wouldn’t keep initiating work stuff with me. I can always pull the plug ad say ‘too busy’ but other do that and I dont like to. Plus, he is a real grafter himself. He is just not very considerate.
Sorry for rambling on about myself. I think I will just need to park this as ‘ammunition’ against him, lol. I really don’t feel one bit bad about that either (obviously I am not as nice a person at you!)
😀
Hi Bewitched,
„I think I will just need to park this as ‘ammunition’ against him, lol. I really don’t feel one bit bad about that either (obviously I am not as nice a person at you!)“
I didn’t mean this kind of ammunition- (I did sth similar a lot too here, writing down stuff about LO that irked me and showed that LO isn’t all that great, causing Marcia to ask why I’m limerent at all for such an idiot 😂, but I did it to counteract the pink glasses of limerence and to show it to myself.)
I meant collecting proof that LO is the one responsible for initiating contact etc., just in case SO finds out, that’s something I never considered, having not been a „nice person“at all, but simply been much too starry-eyed and guilt-ridden (feeling that responsibility is on me anyways)…
But there was anyway only one LE with mutual disclosure and revealing texts/letters, and I think I was very lucky that it found an end without any leaking to SOs, and, Serial Limerent and Lost in Space, I certainly don’t judge others for being less stupid than me, I am just sometimes in wonder at the craziness of it all and us all!
You remind me of me, I was writing down in my journal things like that, that showed that LO wasn‘t all that sweet and great and also wasn’t that considerate to me as I would be to someone I‘m limerent for, and wondering if that meant 1. that he wasn’t limerent for me after all or 2. that I was living in delusion over his real character.
I think it’s important, because it lets us keep a finger on reality.
„Sometimes I wish he wouldn’t keep initiating work stuff with me. I can always pull the plug ad say ‘too busy’ but other do that and I dont like to.“ and „but when I promise something, I always deliver.“
Your LO surely knows how reliable you are and that you won’t say no like the others, and maybe that’s exactly why he keeps initiating work stuff with you. Just don’t cut him extra slack because of limerence, but don’t think about his impoliteness too much either. Set your own boundaries and stay within- if you’ve got the time and think it’s reasonable to do something for him, do it, (but don’t „drop everything to do it“!) and if it’s too much or you don’t feel appreciated enough, say a friendly „no thanks, too busy“.
Bewitched,
That behaviour from your LO would drive me crackers too if I was on the receiving end.
All you can do is take the high ground and be the better person (only you have to know it. Whether he does or not doesn’t matter). Only say yes to work stuff if it feels on balance right to you. If it doesn’t, then say no or say ‘yes, but …’ . Act in a work sense exactly as you would with someone who wasn’t an LO.
Easier said than done but you got this.
Sometimes I really wish my LO would do something to annoy me like this, as it would help me see a more balanced picture of her!
Just realised that Sigourney Weaver is 74 – she typifies ageing well in my book despite not loving her fashion choices at Venice Film Festival this week.
Sigourney Weaver is probably the only female celebrity I would gush at if I ever met her. One of the most talented and beautiful women God ever graced the Earth with. Have you seen her in Alien Resurrection? Oh momma! To quote Adam Baldwin … “I’ll be in my bunk.”
@bewitched
oh god, there are more reckonings coming? The current one where the kids are all finally in school in my early 40s feels bad enough…..
I genuinely thought I was free of (what I now know of as) limerence, until this reckoning hit me….
Anyhow, i’m off to climb 5 mountains over the weekend to prove a point, I just forgot what the point is, and who it is to. Probably to LO2…. at least I can admit that on this forum…
Hi Heebie Jeebies,
LOL – good for you on both fronts (kids at school and climbing mountains).
I think “the reckoning” can be delayed by ten to fifteen years through exercise and looking after yourself. But it still hits.
It sounds as though you’re doing everything right -who cares if you can’t remember why 😂
P.S. you know those short abbreviations for common sayings that the kids all use nowadays? I heard a good one: FWIW – Forgot Where I Was …….
……
Hi Heebie and Bewitched,
Stupid question from a foreigner, what is „the reckoning“?
yes, the midlife also seems to involve a lot of FWIW….
@Mila
literally it is
Day of ‘Reckoning’
noun
the time when one is called to account for one’s actions, to pay one’s debts, or to fulfill one’s promises or obligations.
I think here more in the sense of reckoning with yourself for the life you’ve lived, aka the midlife crisis, which now seems to have spread out as our lives have become more multi-phased.
I was really hoping I’d get over this relapse somehow and then that’s it, finito. I dont seem to be prone to limerence outside of these big moments in life, thankfully.
Hi Heebie Jeebies,
Thanks for the explanation!
I think, with me, the reckoning isn’t bound to birthdays. I sailed through my 30 and 40 birthday without a thought. I get this reckoning feeling at other times, for example now, when I feel that my body finally shows age and doesn’t forgive bad treatment as easy as ten years ago. Or when my second child finished elementary school etc. Birthdays are just days. But could be that the next big one, 50min a couple of years, could resonate differently..
I dunno what midlife is to women, but it seems us men (or at least me for sure) just go through adolescence again, doing thing we should know better than to do. The last four to five years have just been me making mistakes and scolding myself in the mirror for them. I should have just bought a damn sports car I couldn’t afford and been done with it. I’m just ready to skip to “old man drinking PBR in his gym shorts, loafers and dress socks yelling at the neighbor kids” age.
Adam I have a feeling your keen sense of the ridiculous (not to mention sense of humour) will prevent you from going too far in the mid life crisis zone. It’s inevitably the ones who have no idea that end up turning into cautionary tales.
Or perhaps they are well aware of what’s going on, and how it appears, but are incapable of stopping themselves🤔
Or they no longer care, either way.
Hey, I am actually beginning to think this mid life crisis is actually a pretty good idea! 👍
My latest LE hit hard around the time I turned 50! And LO is almost 60, sometimes acting like a kid himself, lol….
Lovisa,
I’m sorry to hear that you’re going through this.
How did she get her guns back? Did they confiscate them under a “Red Flag Law?” If they did, I would think people getting restraining/protective orders against her would preclude that or be grounds for reinstating it.
Also, keep a couple of things in mind. Just because they take away her guns doesn’t means she’s not a threat. It means she’s less of a threat. Sadly, guns are often far too easy to obtain and there are other ways to attack people. Restraining/Protective orders are a “paper shield.” They don’t stop bullets and are only good if the person who has one is willing to enforce it, i.e., don’t get one if you don’t intend to use it. Also, don’t rely on the person you get one on to respect it. If the person has been exhibiting sufficiently bad behavior to warrant one, a PO/RO may not be a deterrent.
I recommend that you take some practical steps to protect yourself. Tell your boss that you have an order out on your sister and ask your boss to not let her have access to you if she shows up at work. Where I used to work, we had restricted access. However, if two people who worked there and one had a PO/RO against them, we’d deny the person access to the site until Security and both people’s management could make arrangements such that the restraining order wouldn’t be violated. An PO/RO would kick off an investigation and that individual could lose access permanently, lose their security clearance, and, as a result, lose their job.
Also, tell the schools you go to and places you often frequent, like the gym. At most schools now, you have to check in via the office. Tell that that if she comes in, she is not allowed access to your kids no matter what she tells them.
Churches are harder. But, a PO/RO is still enforceable. You can both attend the same church but you agree to go to different services. And, your church helps you. I can tell you from experience that things like this drives pastors nuts and some might toss Scripture at you hoping to make it go away. But, don’t accept it. One potential response is “Jesus says to render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and in this situation Caesar says not to allow my sister within 100′ of me.”
If you’re really paranoid, you start doing things like making a pass through the parking lot looking for her car. If you don’t know her license plate number, take a picture of it. Also, consider using pickets. Those are friends that go into a place ahead of you looking for her. At that point, things are pretty bad but you do what you have to.
I wish I had some advice that might correct the problem but I don’t. As you noted, she has to want to change. Until she does, you’re on aggressive defense. Going to jail might induce her to change but from my experience with borderlines, it probably won’t. She probably knows the words to make people think she’s changed on on the road to recovery and, might sincerely believe them when she says them, but it won’t stick.
I’d say close your eyes and pray. But, in this case, pray with your eyes open.
Thanks Limerent Emeritus,
I don’t know what “red flag law” means, I will look into it. Thank you for telling me about it. She got her guns back when her SO died. In October, she threatened to kill herself. She wanted to “die a violent death with a gun.” We developed a safety plan with her. The guns went to the neighbor’s house temporarily until my sister’s SO got a gun safe, which interestingly was provided by the government. When they got the safe, my sister’s SO put the guns in it and he was the only person who knew the combination to the safe. Some of the guns didn’t fit, so my sister’s SO left them with the neighbor. Her SO died in April. When he was in a coma, my sister told me that she intended to figure out a way to get into the gun safe. She said that I shouldn’t worry about her using the guns to hurt herself, but that she just wanted to sell them. I reported to the police that she intended to get into the gun safe and they told me that since she has rights, there is nothing they could do. About a week ago, my Aunt sent an officer to do a well check on my sister. My sister told the officer, “I’m not going to hurt myself, but I might hurt someone else and I have the means to do it.” That is what my Aunt told me she was told by the officer. It’s rumor mill information, but it scares me!
I am learning as I go. This is all so foreign to me. I think the protective order will be helpful because it will help law enforcement quickly determine who is the aggressor if something arises between us. If she attacked me, I suspect I wouldn’t fight back. She is trained in martial arts and she used to do MMA which I’m told is also called Ultimate fighting. She also teaches self-defense classes. I know she could kill me. When she is in her thinking brain, she wouldn’t kill me, but lately she has been doing shockingly crazy things which makes me think she is definitely not in her thinking brain. I don’t think a protective order is just a piece of paper. I was told that if I opened a case against her and pursued a protective order, it would strengthen my dad