One of the things that limerents in long-term relationships must confront is how big of a betrayal it is, if they become limerent for someone else.
Regular readers will know that I very much focus on actions, not thoughts, when it comes to determining issues of guilt or personal integrity. Thought crime is a miserable idea, and a corrosive psychological notion – that your thoughts themselves could be a mechanism for betrayal and a reason to feel shame. The big danger is that this becomes internalised as shame about who you are; that you are shameful inherently because your thoughts are not pure and free from darkness. We are all of us composed of light and dark, and it is an essential part of wisdom to recognise and accept that. Furthermore, limerence is rooted in physiology, so feeling guilty for being a limerent is similar to feeling guilty for liking chocolate. Gluttony and lack of restraint is the problem, not the desire itself.
However, most limerents will – unless they are totally devoid of empathy – feel guilt over the burgeoning feelings they are having for their LO, and how they detract from their relationship with their partner. So, how can this be reconciled? Should we feel guilt over thoughts and feelings, or does anything go in the crazy internal world of our imaginations? Here’s what I think about it:
I’m not anti-guilt. This seems to be a somewhat unfashionable opinion these days, but I think guilt can be helpful if you have done some work to develop self-awareness. Guilt can help you recognise when you are doing something that contravenes your moral sense. It’s a little like cognitive dissonance – when you imagine events or behaviour that could constitute the betrayal of a loved one, your mind is aware of this, and at some level responds emotionally as though it has actually happened. This is hopefully at odds with your self identity, and so you feel shame. Guilt. But the key thing is that guilt is only useful when it’s recognised as a sort of personal warning system. A wake up call that your mind is wandering into wild places, not evidence that you are an awful person who must be ruined or rotten in some way.
People are often much harder on themselves than they are on others. In any healthy relationship, most people do not expect or want total access to their partner’s thoughts. They don’t feel affronted that their partner is free to think or imagine whatever they please. If you do believe that your partner should be utterly loyal in every thought, then you are trying to control someone else’s thoughts… and there are words for that. Unpleasant words. Brainwashing. Dominance. Tyranny.
So, our thoughts are our own, but we should be attentive to them and wise enough to recognise when guilty feelings are a useful indicator that we need to be vigilant about where we are emotionally and psychologically. Time to be alert. Time also to consider how we are behaving towards our partners, because something is amiss. Not time to start dismissing guilt as repressive, or stifling, or evidence of a moralistic straitjacket that unliberated people use to impose control over the free spirit of love.
What is betrayal?
Given this discourse on the nature of guilt, what exactly would constitute betrayal? There is a lot of disagreement about this, some of it self-serving, but some of it due to honest variation between people in attitude, vulnerability and experience. For some people it’s words; for others, it’s any kind of emotional intimacy; for others it’s sexual intimacy. Time is also going to be important. An inappropriate comment at a party is obviously different in character from a long-term affair. Both could be a betrayal, but of rather different gravity. Whatever. The line is there somewhere, we’re just arguing about the orienteering.
Fundamentally, though, what all of these scenarios have in common is action. Behaviour. That’s the point at which our thoughts manifest in the world. So, focus on your behaviour and what you intend it to communicate. How any given couple work out where their lines are is a process of honest communication. Listen to each other and process the information carefully. Compromise is necessary to make a success of any relationship, but compromise should be about mutual respect for each others needs, not reformation of each others characters (which is coercive and doomed to fail). Again, I think guilt is a useful guide here: when your own actions have caused it, you know you are toying with betrayal. Don’t waste time trying to parse exactly how the phraseology of that thing you said (you flirt) could be interpreted; focus on the pang you felt. Because you really don’t want to betray the person you are committed to. It will come back to haunt you, and in all likelihood any future relationships too.
One of the reasons why monogamy is so popular is that it allows you to relax. The world is a complex and dangerous place, full of unpredictable people, who we need. No one is an island; we are social animals, and we crave love and we want to give love and feel needed and valued and secure. But people are so complicated that trying to understand them fully takes time and effort, and so when we meet someone new we tend to be vigilant about our interactions with them. When you trust someone, you can relax that vigilance. You take their good faith for granted, and life becomes safer and simpler. When you form a loving bond with them, the trust deepens, and the world seems a little saner and more predictable, and you can use that trust as a foundation from which to explore. That is why betrayal is so profound.
If a loved one betrays you, it undermines your past, your present, and your future. At it’s worst, it can cause a kind of total personality collapse: all your memories are suspect, all your security was an illusion, you are not where you thought you were, and your partner is now a stranger that caused you harm. Security is shattered. Hopes for the future are gone in an instant. Even worse: your worldview is blown up. You trusted someone incorrectly, which means your judgement is now suspect. Your foundation has fallen out from under you, and so you have no desire to explore, and no safe haven to return to.
Betrayal of a loved one really is a catastrophically destructive act.
Listen to your guilt, and use it wisely.
Being a long time Limerant I don’t feel any guilt, never have cos I know I would never betray my SO. It is what it is! I’m currently Limerant with an LO and have been on and off for 13 years! Yes, 13 years!! Can anyone beat that? Currently enjoying a renaissance with my partner of 22 years after following advice from this site and other sites. My LO is never far from my thoughts, I just manage it so much better.
Thinking about someone else occasionally isn’t a reason to feel guilty. That’s part of life. But if you find yourself compromising your integrity in order to spend more time with that person and short-changing or comparing your SO and finding them wanting, it’s time to re-evaluate what’s really going on.
Are there men with whom I might be better suited and happier? Probably. Ditto for Mr. Lee! But Mr. Lee and I chose one another because we loved one another then and now. If there is a problem, or someone is in a competition about which they know nothing, then it has the potential to become a problem. After all, in a world with over 7 billion human beings, of course there is someone out there who is possibly “perfect” for Mr. Lee. If that perfect person comes along and Mr. Lee decides he wants to pursue her, then I want Mr. Lee to do the honest thing, pull the plug on our marriage and then go in pursuit of this woman. All of us deserve a clean start and honesty.
Gosh Trooper – do you really feel that 13 years straddling the fence has been good for your relationship with SO? I’m glad you are enjoying a renaissance, but does your SO know how long you’ve been going through the motions?
Morality in limerence is such an interesting subject. It is about the difference between pursuing short-term gratification versus its opposite. It certainly is not a crime to feel limerent, but feelings often lead to action. Feeling guilt (the acute type, rather than chronic) seems to me a good sign that the conscience is working properly. Speaking from personal experience, I find that it’s not helpful to silence acute guilty feelings with any justifications, as they are only lies that blind me further. Chronic guilt is hugely unhelpful compared to the acute version: it paralyses our thoughts and feelings and, when internalised, makes it harder to make changes to whatever that cause the guilt in the first place. I don’t think feeling acute guilt is about being harsh on oneself, but it does demand our attention and action to deal with the truth. Just trying to rephrase a couple of points that I think has been said in this thoughtful post.
I like that idea about the distinction between acute and chronic guilt. With acute guilt it’s caused by your actions or at least a specific event, whereas if it becomes chronic, then it’s likely to morph into guilt about who you are. That’s a good way of thinking about it.
“However, most limerents will – unless they are totally devoid of empathy – feel guilt over the burgeoning feelings they are having for their LO, and how they detract from their relationship with their partner. So, how can this be reconciled?”
Well, they could discuss the possibility of having an open marriage. But really it’s best to do that before you are limerent for someone else, or when you’re over one and haven’t noticed another. Be prepared to have it all and equally prepared to lose it all.
I wouldn’t recommend it for a lot of reasons, but it could work. It will take a LOT of work though. My friend who is in a polyamorous relationship works a lot harder at it than any married couple I know. Communication is paramount. Trust is key and must be maintained with still more communication and understanding. I think it’s easier to invest that much energy into the established relationship. If speaking openly and frankly with your primary partner is not working or not going to work, that calls for the miracle of divorce, rather than introducing more variables.
Personally, I choose monogamy. Others don’t. I can respect those who discuss before springing someone on their spouse or SO. You know, the ones who don’t have someone lined up or already in the relationship, unbeknownst to their SO.
“Chronic guilt is hugely unhelpful compared to the acute version: it paralyses our thoughts and feelings and, when internalised, makes it harder to make changes to whatever that cause the guilt in the first place.”
I very much agree. Mr. Lee suffers from chronic guilt and it definitely paralyzes him, which has then led to anger which then lead to lashing out at me (in the past) as somehow the root cause of his unhappiness. Newsflash: if you’re miserable and making it your goal to make me miserable and I have some magical way of making you happy – don’t you think I would do it? It’s a backhanded compliment to think I’m that powerful, but it didn’t make it right nor did it make life easier for either of us or our kids.
I’ve spent a lot of time and effort refusing to take responsibility for his problems. I have my own and I’ll take on my share of OUR problems – but I refused to deal with his too. It’s only taken 20+ years, but he seems to really get it now.
Happier thoughts: since LO has left, Mr. Lee has mentioned that it’s a lot easier to not dwell and LO is no longer taking up such a large amount of his imagination. He has said it’s a been more of a relief than he expected. So there’s another plug for no contact.
When I first found this blog I cried because I finally found something I could relate to that no therapists have been able to help me with. Reading the content has been very informative and I now have a clearer view of what is going on. It would be amazing if you could make this blog into a podcast to listen to while going about my day. Thank you so much!
“One of the reasons why monogamy is so popular is that it allows you to relax. The world is a complex and dangerous place, full of unpredictable people, who we need. No one is an island; we are social animals, and we crave love and we want to give love and feel needed and valued and secure. But people are so complicated that trying to understand them fully takes time and effort, and so when we meet someone new we tend to be vigilant about our interactions with them. When you trust someone, you can relax that vigilance. You take their good faith for granted, and life becomes safer and simpler. When you form a loving bond with them, the trust deepens, and the world seems a little saner and more predictable, and you can use that trust as a foundation from which to explore. That is why betrayal is so profound.“
That’s really beautiful and I really needed to hear that today in regards to my own marriage.
Thank you.
They should feel shame for bothering their LO. These people want nothing to do with y’all.
Don’t flatter yourself. You’re probably not someone’s LO.
At our worst, you’re just an object; at our best, you’re nobody!
Easy folks. LOs sometimes have perfectly legitimate complaints about the way they’ve been treated by limerents.
Let’s keep cool heads. The goal is to leave them alone if they don’t want the attention.
I’m always leery when someone says they are another person’s LO. Unless someone comes out and point-blank says, “I’m obsessed with you. I think about you all the time,” (which I have never in my life confessed to an LO) you just don’t know.
Many moons ago, at another job, I became friends with a guy and we hung out one-on-one and spent time together. People assumed I had a real thing about him but he was too “rock ‘n roll” for a girlfriend. I heard them talking about it. But I didn’t have a thing for him. I actually had a thing for someone else — yes, from what I know now, it was limerence — but the guy never knew (and neither did anyone else) because I intentionally avoided him. He had a girlfriend.
Sure, you can tell when someone is interested. But how do you know they’re not into 5 other people as well? You can also tell when someone is doing too much to get your attention or won’t leave you alone … but you still don’t know if they are limerent. That could be their misguided method of pursuit.
Hmmm I think it doesn’t particularly matter if it’s technically limerence. If a person’s behavior makes someone else uncomfortable, that person should stop. If Aggrieved was harassed or worse, they have every reason to be upset. I was fuming when I came here too. I lost a community thanks to the flirtation of a married man. I didn’t sleep for three months from the stress. Coming here and getting advice from limerents has changed my life for the better because I’ve realized what it was about my behavior that caused uncertainty (even though it came from a place of confusion rather than a desire to manipulate). I still keep Emeritus’s advice in the back of my mind all the time to not be so open with people until I know them better and in the cases where I have barely spoken to them, I just avoid them completely. I will never stick around ever again telling myself it’s all in my head. Because I know the difference. The intensity of emotion coming from the other is palpable sometimes. And I finally put it all together once I backtracked and thought about the preceding behavior of those who did confess.
That said, I don’t think blanket statements about limerents are true but we often lash out when we’re hurt… no? Rather than take it personally (because really it’s not aimed at any of us as individuals) maybe we should get curious and ask ‘why?’
My lash-out was not due to my personal hurt (I’m so much, better, almost LE pain free), but Aggrieved LO’s blanket statement.
One LO’s experiences can not represent all of LOs. One SHOULD always speak or complain based only on one’s OWN experiences!
The generalizing term such as “they”, “these people”, “y’all” should be avoided in any public space when only describing some specific phenomenon. Not ALL of limerents have bothered, stalked, or harassed our LOs, why should we ALL feel “shame”?
True, Aggrieved LO did not aim at any individual here, but at us ALL! She or he is free to complain or lash out at her or his limerents or that type, not ALL of us; most of us have suffered or are suffering a great deal. Such indiscriminate blanket statement is adding salt to their wounds.
Snowphoenix,
“My lash-out was not due to my personal hurt (I’m so much, better, almost LE pain free), but Aggrieved LO’s blanket statement.”
Exactly. If Aggreived had really wanted to be heard instead of just being snarky, his/her tone would have been much different.
Perhaps I can put this in a better way. I think almost all of us get reactive and lash out when we’re upset. What if Aggrieved had a moment of misdirected anger? I’d be lying if I said I hadn’t ever done that myself! I like what Brene Brown says in The Call to Courage about playing the tape to the end. If everyone gets angry, the crappy feelings are just perpetuated (for all parties). Like when my kid comes home from school and lashes out at me because some kids were mean to her. I didn’t do anything but I have a choice – join the chaos or help her work through it. Sometimes when I’m low I’ll join the chaos. Damn right I do. I’m far from perfect! But when I’m on top of my game I can hold space for her. Enough for her to feel safe enough to say what she’s really feeling rather than kick out at me. Because I KNOW her anger has nothing to do with me just as Aggrieved’s anger has nothing to do with us.
So, I’m asking you, what would it look like at the end of the tape if you let one go by and got curious instead?
As fascinated as I am with game theory I also have to add the other potential player in the game. The common garden variety troll. In which case, any angry response is just feeding it, right?
Call Me Cordeila,
“In which case, any angry response is just feeding it, right?”
It’s not an angry response. It’s meeting them at their level.
@Marcia
The point of game theory is to find the best outcome. For you. I, personally, don’t mind a discussion with someone I disagree with. As long as it’s respectful. I feel like crap when I react to someone. Ultimately I know that if I can retain my composure, the outcome is better for ME. Chaos can be contagious, but so can calm.
Recently a family member accused me of something entirely untrue. It hurt. I was triggered. I put in a boundary to protect myself. I have told this family member before that the only way she can have access to me is if she is honest and respectful. Why waste my energy and argue with someone who’s full of sh*t? It’s not in my own best interest. So I ignored her and walked away. I’m just wondering what is ultimately the best response for you and your peace. Maybe you enjoy a good bun fight 😅 (That visual always cracks me up. I imagine people literally hurling cream-filled buns at each other. Probably quite therapeutic TBH 🤷♀️)
You’re reading too much into this. Someone made a snarky comment; I made one back. Sometimes, it’s kind of fun. 🙂
I was writing this in a separate document when Dr L kinda wrote what I was thinking…
I have to wonder if Aggrieved has been stalked or harassed?
As someone who’s been on both sides I definitely felt harassed at times. As a Limerent I know I was ashamed of how I felt and did my best to hide it. I think most people here are working through how they feel. Some LOs are clearly narcissistic and milk the limerence for all it’s worth while others probably just feel extremely uncomfortable and don’t know how to address it. Especially in a professional situation. I certainly did.
So, Aggrieved, can you share why you feel so aggrieved? I think it’s good for Limerents to hear the LO perspective. So it might help you and everyone here if you can tell us how you feel.
If Morgan was ever uncomfortable with the attention she got from me she never made it known. She smiled and was always friendly even if in her head she was thinking “oh god not the old man again”. We may use the term “limerent object” but they aren’t objects. They are people with emotions, fears, goals, friends, family; lives of their own to live. And here comes some lonely limerent old man trying insert more than a co-worker role into her life.
And so in a professional setting she literally grinned and bared it. I know because I asked my supervisor sometime after she left, being that everyone in the office knew I had “a crush” on her if she had ever reported to him any behavior of mine that made her uncomfortable or was crossing the line for her. And she said no. In fact he said when she told him she was giving her two two week notice he said she went “I don’t look forward to telling Adam”. To which our supervisor said “no one else but you can do tell him.”
What we do as limerents effects our limerent objects. They are humans with feelings. If Morgan didn’t understand the strong but confusing feelings she was getting from me, than leaving the job and telling me wouldn’t have been an ordeal to her. She would have know I would have been happy for her moving on to a better place in life for herself.
So no it doesn’t surprise me to find a comment from an Aggrevated LO that is frustrated and angry. Limerence is a two sided coin. And many times in our limerent bliss we forget that the limerent object is affected by it too.
Very true, Adam. And I’ve said this before, she couldn’t complain because technically you didn’t cross a line. It wouldn’t officially be called harassment even if it bothered her and you had plausible deniability. So there’s no way out for either of you other than one of you to leave. Especially if the LO DOES like the person (romantically or not). But LO knows those emotions from the Limerent will lead to trouble.
In the case of Aggrieved I just wonder if the limerent actually crossed a line. Their comment was misdirected and we should all realize blanket comments are made when we’re hurt and reactive. nobody here should be taking it on emotionally. I think you take on enough guilt for the whole LWL site, Adam 🥺
Cordelia,
There are often times, especially this much time past since she left, that I think she did indeed leave partly for my own sake. We did get along well socially and professionally long before the limerence. Which makes me feel some guilt for putting her in that position. While I do know indeed (from conformation from other co-workers) that it was mostly she was unhappy there and that her new job was a better schedule for her to care for her daughters and make sure they got to school. Her leaving might very well have saved me from myself.
She was very quiet and reserved on her last day when I was there. Not the usual fun and outgoing person she normally is. I did notice that.
Yes, I would like to know if the Limerent in Aggrieved LOs situation, was even aware what they were doing. If they were naive like myself, they may not even know how much they actually pissed off LO.
We limerents have to bear the responsibility for our actions. If a limerent object is not inviting or enticing the attention that we limerents give than it is our responsibility to not make them feel uncomfortable in our presence. Especially with a married limerents. We owe our actions and words from both our spouse and the limerent object to be morally correct.
Limerence like being drunk isn’t an excuse for our behavior. It’s a reason, but not an excuse. And believe me, after Morgan left the job I spent plenty of time in my head wondering if I had in any way been part of the reason she left the job because my attention to her made her uncomfortable. We as limerents most certainly do have to consider the state of mind of our limerent object during our limerent episode. They may seem like angels but they are just humans prone to human responses to our attention.