For those you’ve been following the blog for some time, you might remember a project I started over a year and a half ago to try and help people whose long-term relationships had been harmed by their partner becoming limerent for someone else.
Step 3 of that plan was creating a resource that helps solve the biggest problems that betrayed partners face. It’s taken me a long time, for various reasons, but I’m finally there.
I’ll give a little background and then explain what’s happening.
1. Information gathering
Step 1 of my plan was to gather information about what the biggest problems faced by betrayed partners were, and then find out what they thought would be most helpful.
The problems were easy enough to identify:
- My partner’s behaving like a totally different person and I don’t know why
- My family is falling apart and I don’t know what to do
- I’m trying to hold it together, but my emotions swing between anxiety, insecurity, abandonment and anger
- I want to be patient and understanding, but it feels really unfair that they get all the consideration
- I feel ashamed about what’s happening to me
- My partner won’t communicate with me
- My partner lies about their behaviour and is rewriting the history of our relationship
- I feel worthless, unlovable and rejected
- The pain of betrayal is suffocating
- Nobody seems to understand what I’m going through
So, diagnosing the problems was successful enough, but step two was all about how to solve them.
2. What would help?
Being an academic, my first instinct was to teach:
- I could create a course on what limerence is and how to make sense of the change in the partner’s behaviour.
- I could explain psychological methods for getting through to people who are resistant to communication.
- I could provide practical strategies for making better decisions while under an emotional assault and panic about the future.
But, I am glad that I didn’t just jump straight into this plan.
Instead, I contacted the people who had completed my survey and asked to talk to them one to one.
It was one of the most enlightening and sobering experiences I’ve had since I started the blog.
The outcome of those discussions was that, while all the educational stuff that I had in mind would be useful and valuable, what the partners really wanted was to talk to someone who understood what they were going through.
They needed to ask people – how did you solve this problem? What should I do about this demand my partner has made? How did you deal with your anger?
What became apparent through these conversations was that a passive course would only really be valuable if it was combined with a community of experienced and empathetic people. People who would get what the problem is, not judge the person going through the pain, and not just give stock answers like “you need to fight for your marriage” or “you need to dump him and move on.”
I’d like to thank all the people who I spoke to about this, and also apologise for how long it’s taken after our conversations to move onto stage 3.
Which is…
3. Building a partner’s community
The main reason for the delay, apart from the general background business of life, is that I realised that this was not a project that I was well equipped to do alone.
I’m an academic neuroscientist. My skills are in making sense of behaviour in terms of how the brain works. While I can usefully coach people who are going through many of the problems created by limerence that I understand well, I am not a therapist or counsellor with clinical experience of helping people in severe emotional distress.
So, I knew if this project was going to work, I needed a co-founder who did have those skills and experience.
After lots of good discussions about the project and how to implement it, I’m now delighted to announce that Fenna van den Berg has agreed to co-lead an online community with me.
Fenna is a highly experienced schema therapist with over 25 years of clinical practice, specializing in trauma, attachment issues, and obsessive relational patterns such as limerence.
She also knows first hand how limerence can cause irrational behaviour, and the tricks and evasions that limerents practice while chasing their addictive highs.
So, here’s the plan:
We are building a private online community specifically for people who are suffering because their partner’s limerence has harmed their relationship.
It’s not going to be a joint community where limerents can also share their perspective.
It’s not going to be a venue for couple’s counselling.
It’s exclusively for partners, to meet the unmet need of a safe and private space for them to share their stories, seek advice, seek support and figure out a path forwards.
Fenna and I will be actively managing the community, running weekly Q&A sessions, and uploading all those educational resources that make sense of what’s going on and help plan for the future.
But, following the same principle as for step 2, we’re not going to be rigid. We’ll figure out what’s most useful with the members of the community. It will evolve over time, as we home in on what’s really helpful, rather than what we think might be helpful.
If you would like to learn more, you can sign up to join the waiting list for the community.
We plan to launch in a month or so.
More information here:
Inspired!
A private hate group sure sounds productive to me
Bizarre take.
Bizarre but not that unexpected, perhaps? One of the ways addicts enable themselves is to mischaracterise any threat to their addiction as bad faith.
“You don’t want me to access [adfictive thing] because you hate me/ you want me to
be unhappy/ you’re wrong about the harms of addiction”.
David, either you are an unhappy person taking your troubles out on those who don’t deserve it, or you’re a bot who somehow got past the spam filter. If the former, I hope you find the support you need.
Pretty much everyone who shows up to sit around saying mean stuff on the subreddit is one of these people. Tom is creating a private environment where they can make stuff up and share misinformation without anyone watching. You get one or two people who are motivated to do this, and they will sit around doing this all day and turn it into a hate group over time. All private communities which are created in opposition to anything turn into a hate group like this.
Here is a pic of somebody like this making what is (these days) considered to be a death threat https://imgur.com/a/hlINzqy
Tom also has the worst track record calling out misinformation. He refuses to even frame misinformation as misinformation at all, framing everything as opinion or even makes excuses for people who do it, like legitimizing Albert Wakin’s fake 5% prevalence estimate in past articles (something Wakin literally just made up, when he actually did a survey that showed 25-35% or even 50%).
I’m just saying I have no confidence in the ability of these people to moderate a community like this.
This is exactly why the community will be private, David.
So that partners who are already suffering will not be exposed to comments like yours.
David – I don’t understand what you mean by “All private communities which are created in opposition to anything turn into a hate group like this.” Are you viewing the people who might join Partner’s community as people who are opposed to limerence? They would probably be people who are distressed by their partners’ limerence, but how can you be opposed to a phenomenon like limerence? Limerence happens, and based on what I’ve read in this blog, limerents who are partnered as well as their partners are often distressed by it. What is wrong with the partners having a space to share their experiences? Just because these partners are distressed does not mean they hate their limerent partners.
I am extremely grateful for your work Dr L, and very much looking forward to this opportunity.
David
What’s the difference between us delirious limerents with our “misinformation” on our own limerence in the relative privacy of LwL and a private place for those that suffered from our limerence? I have every intention of telling my wife, in case she wants to join. The damage I have done is immeasurable. If she wants somewhere to talk to others put in same the position I put her in, she deserves that. You seem only object to this place because you don’t want to think of getting a taste of your own medicine. I don’t even want to go back and look at some of the drivel I posted when I first came here. It’s quite delusional.
You would probably have no idea what I’m referring to, because Tom refuses to comment on it directly. Basically all internet content about limerence is derived from a couple of authors who essentially spread disinformation that it’s rare and almost nothing is known about it (for attention, or something). Really it’s common, and there is a research literature explaining what it is (basically passionate love or a love addiction).
As it’s relevant here, for example, Helen Fisher’s book Anatomy of Love has an evolutionary theory of limerence affairs.
There are still people arguing it’s a mental disorder which is somehow different from intense romantic love, but Tom won’t say this is based on outright misinformation (which it is). When Tom does comment about a disagreement, he has historically elevated these people, like saying in his book that Albert Wakin is a clinician (which he isn’t).
Tom knows it is BS, but he’s too agreeable to say anything, and has some vision of a big tent community or something. He has no sense for the fact that there are just people out there who don’t like us, say mean things and spread lies about it.
Unfortunately, I don’t have any confidence that he can moderate a community of people who are angry about limerence. If he cared about the misinformation being spread on social media, I wouldn’t be commenting about this, but he has a very naive, unrealistic and dismissive attitude.
It’s probably safe to say those people are not angry about limerence. They are probably angry about the situations they put themselves in, because of the limerence.
It’s not Dr. L’s job to moderate the new, private forum. Or this main site.
This main site is a group of grown adults who are trying to work out their stuff. I’m assuming the new, private forum will be the same. And people process their “stuff” at different times/rates, and you can’t push/force them. It’s their job to do that.
It’s the job of an expert to police misinformation. That’s what experts are for, especially experts who have a media career.
Tom doesn’t like doing this, so we’re in a “2 steps forward, 3 steps back” kind of situation.
I don’t have much else to say except complain if he’s going to make some private forum where antis can spread misinformation without any oversight.
I categorically disagree. This is one of the reasons I was happy to leave academia. Gatekeeping of The Science always collapses into hubris, snobbery, and blinkered thinking.
Experts should present their evidence, make their case in the marketplace of ideas, and trust free people to make their own judgments.
David,
How do you define the word ‘misinformation’, please?
Are these main sources of misinformation being peddled (as you see it) happening within LwL or on other corners of the internet?
If the latter – is it really Tom’s job to police what the entire internet says on the topic? If you mean LwL, then Tom is only really responsible for the content of his own blogs. Everybody knows that the comments sections of sites like this represent people’s opinions, not gospel, and can go a bit rogue at times. Yeah, he should challenge things if posters, say, try to claim facts that he knows are way off base. But if we’re (as posters in a comments section) clearly just saying “this is my perspective or experience of limerence” … who can really tell us we’re wrong??
He can gently guide people with information. Which is what Dr. L does here.
It’s their job to implement said information.
“marketplace of ideas” 😂
I am so glad virologists and doctors of the world do not share Tom’s extremely silly ideas about misinformation
Misinformation policing by virologists and doctors has caused incalculable harm to the reputation of medical institutions over the last decade. Their role is to provide impartial, evidence-based information to the public, not to determine what is permissible for people to hear.
“Misinformation” claims are often used as an excuse to suppress dissent, protect reputations, and control narratives. That leads to collapse of epistemic trust, as people realise that credentialled experts are just as prone to lazy thinking, motivated reasoning, political bias, and “prosocial” lying as the rest of us.
This could be a problem of terminology: I’m assuming that by “policing” you mean enforcing sanctions – like censorship, demanding retractions, or deplatforming violators from public fora.
If you just mean a doctor stating “this claim about treatment of covid is based on a shoddy study that was not properly controlled and only has 6 participants,” then that’s what I mean by marketplace of ideas. It’s the John Stuart Mill philosophy that truth is best found through open competition of ideas, not through the suppression of dangerous misinformation by authority.
Because who would you trust to be in charge of deciding what is or isn’t misinformation?
You actively promoted this stuff, like the idea that there isn’t research in your guide to clinicians, citing papers that aren’t even peer-reviewed, when there are real clinicians who wrote about this like Tallis or Peele 😂
You don’t care about the marketplace in the way you are claiming
Why are you arguing, seriously. It’s actually embarrassing. Just admit Wakin and Willmott are BS and you fell for their misinformation, so everyone can move forward 😂
Their papers are not even scientific, just people without relevant credentials making stuff up
I’m arguing because that’s how you find out the truth, as I said 🙂
I genuinely don’t get why you are so bothered by the “there’s hardly any research on limerence” comment. Your list has about 30-40 citations in it, with most of them being throwaway mentions of limerence as an alternative term for passionate love. They certainly weren’t investigating limerence directly, and some of them (like Adam Bode) seem negatively disposed towards the concept. And if the ones that do directly investigate limerence are “just people without relevant credentials making stuff up” that means the pool of research papers is even smaller.
Compare it to the number of papers published since 1979 on attachment theory, or OCD, or oxytocin. Tens of thousands. There are probably 30 papers on cancer published per hour. Hell, I was but one academic for 25 years, and I published more papers than that.
It is not “misinformation” to claim that there is hardly any research published on limerence.
Sincere question: why does that claim bother you?
Who are you? Are you an academic in this topic? Are you a limerent? Are you a spouse of a limerent? Are you an LO? What is your agenda in coming on here? Why do you care that there will be a private forum for people whose partners are limerent? If you don’t like the information being provided on this site and/or don’t like how this site is run (and seem to be inferring you will also not like information provided on the private forum and the way it is run), why not start your own site?
I don’t think anyone cares if you post on here with differing and/or challenging opinions, but your tone is mocking and frankly rude. There’s no reason for it.
Hi David, to help us frame your perspective, are you the same David who manages Wiki and the guest article here recently, or are you a different David visiting new ?
I see three types of limerents in any public or private space:
1. No/little LE information, no Will.
To this group, experts’ information is needed, as well as guided solutions, ie. LC/NC or taking concrete actions. They’re unwilling or unable to exit LE (w/o other mental health issues).
2. With some/a lot LE information, weak will/disciplines (w/o other social or mental health issues, or serial LE). they move 2 steps forward and 1-2 steps back; or just circle in the snail house; or exit an old LE and then enter another new one.
3. No LE information, with strong will/disciplines (ie. First-time or situational LE, w/o old mental health issues)
Clear information and guidance are also needed. Then, they exit LE for good and hopefully form a healthy relationship or become a new DrL.
In my opinion, neither group should not be TOTALLY left alone, going “dark” or chamber—echoing.
David,
Have you read DrL’s entire body of work? I don’t think what DrL posts is misinformation. Limerence is not defined in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. But, just because something is not formally recognized by a community doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.
Also, Fenna is a therapist who has the credentials to opine on things and guide the group. I remember when she arrived at LwL, posting under a screen name. So, there are two highly credentialed people running the show. I see it as DrL explaining the “How” and Fenna explaining the “What” and “Why.”
LwL is like a lot of places. It works for some people, not for others. Some people might get a fractional benefit from it, some people might get an exponential benefit. But, from my observation, you get out of LwL what you put into it. There’s a lot of information here that can help explain a lot of things but you have to do the work.
Yes, I dispute this.
You seem to think that people like Wakin and Lynn Marshall are deliberately and consciously misrepresenting well established research literature – but this is actually your interpretation of how limerence relates to other romantic love research that does not use the limerence frame.
My approach is to argue with them that limerence is a common state in the early stage of love, not a mental illness, and try and build consensus.
Your approach seems to be accusing them of spreading misinformation, demanding they retract their claims, and then attacking their character when they don’t.
I dislike that approach.
It’s not my interpretation; it’s the interpretation of people who have relevant credentials.
https://limerence.fandom.com/wiki/Quotes_from_Academic_Texts
https://web.archive.org/web/20080210054316/https://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-02-06-limerence_N.htm
https://www.self.com/story/limerence-virgin-at-41
As far as I’m concerned limerence is brain rot the same as alcohol is gut rot. And I’m susceptible to both. I get arguing it from a neurological and scientific angle. But each partner of a limerent has a different experience. Alcoholics aren’t the only ones that attend AA. A lot are partners of the alcoholic. And they need space to talk out what it’s like dealing in that situation in a safe space. I’ve burdened my wife with both. One longer than the other.
And I’ve been called out by Dr L three times for the $hit I’ve posted. And all of them were called for. Dr L is disagreeable when it’s called for. He’s not 100% passive like you make him out to be. He knows when to address delirious limerents like me for the sake of my wife and other partnered limerents. It’s not his responsibility to police peoples thoughts here. It’s our responsibility as limerents to do it ourselves. Dr L is giving us a place to try and understand what is going on us with us. Not to say what we should think. He’s extending himself to help us for no other reason than altruism.
That not that after almost 4 years since Ive seen her I called my wife by LO’s name last week despite doing all the right things to break ties, stop intrusive thoughts, going NC and avoiding social media. Can that be boiled down to the scientific? Maybe. But is alcoholism a disease or a lack of self control? I find you brash and dismissive. But it’s find we all have our opinions.
I see this as a positive. Sadly though not all limerents here are going to disclose to their SO. They have their reasons and can therefore be lost in their illusion. I’m not judging. I’m just one who can attest that being interested in other people besides my Wife, landed me in divorce court. I regret my choices every day.
If Dr.L can save just one marriage throughout his effort in the private forum, its worth everything he’s put into it.
“That not that after almost 4 years since Ive seen her I called my wife by LO’s name last week despite doing all the right things to break ties, stop intrusive thoughts, going NC and avoiding social media.”
How did that go over?
FWIW: I was having a drink with my best man the night before my wedding. I said that it was hard to believe that in 24 hours I’d be married to LO #2. My best man looked at me and said, “I hope to God that name doesn’t cross your lips tomorrow.” It didn’t.
Sadly, it happens.
MJ
I asked Momma to read Dr L’s recent post last night because it “pertained to her.” And Momma said “Who did I piss off now?” Lmao. I said “No it pertains to you as the wife of a limerent and something Dr L is trying to provide support for those in your situation.”
L.E.
She actually didn’t tell me till the next day. I called her LO’s name lying in our bed together. In the bed we sleep together in. She seemed quite indifferent the next the day. And she didn’t kill me in my sleep so ….. I’m not sure. I apologized in a hand written letter because it’s easier than saying it. She hasn’t brought it up again. Maybe it’s (hopefully) just an isolated incident and not me going down the rabbit hole again.
My husband randomly blurted out his LO’s nickname one night while we were watching TV in bed. I had no idea she even had that nickname, or even a clear idea of who she was, other than a co-worker, until a full year later.
When I discovered the depth of his involvement and obsession with her, I was shocked and devastated. I had thought our 30-year marriage was stable, loving and fulfilling, both emotionally and physically.
Limerence has the potential to shatter lives and destroy families, so is worth studying and understanding. I was preparing for a divorce when I stumbled across this blog and ultimately decided to give my husband a chance to sort himself out.
Navigating the despair, frustration and confusion as an SO (or “insignificant” SO, as that is how you feel when your spouse is limerent for someone else) has been gut-wrenching to say the least. Apparently there are enough of us in this situation to warrant special attention. Thank you again, Dr.L and Fenna, for taking on this challenge.
Hi Libra. Thanks for your message, but sorry to hear what you’ve been going through. This is exactly what the community is for – helping SOs make sense of what’s happening and find ways to navigate the despair, frustration and confusion.
Thank you for sharing your story, Libra iSO. I’m sorry that you felt insignificant as the SO of a limerent. That breaks my heart. Hearing your side of things humbles me. I am grateful to the SOs that post on LwL because, when I was limerent, the SO’s stories grounded me and brought me back to reality. I understand that the SO community will be private to protect the hurting SOs, but I am hopeful that your stories will somehow be shared with us limerents, too.
I hope your husband was able to sort himself out.
Thanks again for sharing.
LibraiSO, your comment is exactly the reason I desperately need to join the SO group: you understand. Nobody, who hasn’t experienced it themselves, fully understands an SO’s dilemma (I agree, ‘insignificant other’ would be more accurate).
I can’t wait to exchange ideas with people who absolutely get it because they’ve been there too.
Libra and Judanne – I am sorry you’re hurt and distressed. I think many of the limerents on this blog are good and well-meaning people who really don’t understand how their SO feels. The limerents are often aware that the “relationship” with their LOs are largely manufactured and in their heads. For that reason, they don’t understand how or why something that’s happening in their heads should affect their SOs. The SOs frequently know something is wrong and “insignificant other” is the perfect summary of how they feel.
Lovisa – Thank you for your comment: “I am grateful to the SOs that post on LwL because, when I was limerent, the SO’s stories grounded me and brought me back to reality.” I’ve been thinking since Dr L announced this new community that as helpful as I believe it will be to the SOs, I do hope SOs continue to post in the LwL blog just to “ground” and bring the limerents “back to reality.”
David posts highlights the need for a private group. Libra iSO’s post underscores it.
IMO.
That should be “David’s posts”.
Best wishes to all iSO’s.