Gosh, will you look at that! It’s already over a month since the last coffeehouse post.
It’s been a busy few weeks, so I’ll kick things off with another update on progress with LwL business.
YouTube
Just before Christmas I launched my YouTube channel. I’m now into a weekly schedule for posting videos, and am working my way through the fundamentals of limerence (but with 7 years extra knowledge compared to when I started the blog).
I’m still having fun (although editing is much more work than I expected), and am happy with progress, so… pretty much a success!
I’ve had a few queries about subscribing, because people are naturally cautious about privacy when it comes to limerence. As far as I know it is not possible for other people to view your YouTube subscriptions, and it is possible to make your profile private – so that even the channel owner cannot see that you have subscribed.
So, if you do want to keep up to date, you can safely *leans in for emphasis* like and subscribe.
You can tell I’m a proper YouTuber now.
Book
Another big moment this week – I got a hard copy of the book.
It was more special than I expected. It’s a really lovely hardback, and just feels… nice to hold. I also got to decide this week on the audiobook narrator, which was an interesting experience – hearing my words in someone else’s voice is weird.
Milestones of progress.
Now, it’s just waiting for the launch dates.
Pirate Monk podcast
I had a good chat just before Christmas with the guys at the Pirate Monk podcast, about all things limerence. It’s out now! You can listen here:
https://samsonsociety.podbean.com/e/445-tom-bellamy/
Welcome page
Last bit of news was a suggestion from Limerent Emeritus about the perennial challenge of making the comments threads useful for both new arrivals and old friends.
To welcome newcomers more effectively, he’s suggested a “welcome to newcomers” post to help orient people and explain all the ins and outs of the community. That seems like a very good plan, but it might have to end up being a separate carefully managed page to avoid the problems of spambots.
Over the last couple of months the numbers have gone through the roof (literally tens of thousands of spam comments) to the extent that Akismet is telling me off for too many API requests. I think I’ve come up with a fix, but it also means the policy of turning off comments on posts after 30 days is definitely staying in place.
Spamming really seems like a pointless waste of time and resources nowadays. It’s not as if any of the comments get through. Hard to believe they actually achieve anything with their antics, but they are certainly persistent.
Once all those issues are sorted, I’ll post the welcome page and let everyone know so they can go and say hello to the newbies.
Anyway, that’s the news from me.
How about for an icebreaker, people share any new year wins they’ve already enjoyed in 2025…?
“Busy, busy, busy, is what we Bokononists whisper whenever we think of how complicated and unpredictable the machinery of life really is.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat’s Cradle
I didn’t know you were a Bokononist, DrL.
Nor did I 🙂
Song of the Blog:
“Nice, Nice Very Nice” – Ambrosia (1975)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2t0iuVVaH8
I love Vonnegut!
In college, I took a Modern Short Stories class. The prof assigned us each an author who we had to research and write our semester paper on. He assigned me Vonnegut. He said that he thought Vonnegut suited me.
Vonnegut’s collection of short stories, “Welcome to the Monkey House” is great. I ended up reading almost all of his works. “Cat’s Cradle” is probably my favorite novel I have a coffee mug of Vonnegut quotes.
“Life is funny sometimes…and sometimes it isn’t.” – “Cat’s Cradle.”
LE,
Thanks for that, I only read „Slaughterhouse 5“ and always wanted to read more of him, now you remind me of that and I‘ll immediately order some books!
I ordered „Welcome to the Monkey house“ and „Cat‘s Cradle“ and, to get to the amount where they do free shipping, „Quiet“ by Susan Cain. LwL once again proves to be an inspiration on all fronts.
Mila,
I’ll be interested in what you think of Vonnegut’s short stories, particularly “Welcome to the Monkey House” and “Harrison Bergeron.”
Vonnegut was eerily prescient, in some stories, almost like Orwell. Vonnegut tilted toward socialism and several of the things he seemed to be against, are coming out of the left. I won’t spoil the stories for you.
“No damn cat, no damn cradle.”
Hi LE,
the books still wait to be picked up by me, will keep you posted when I read them! I don’t remember much from the one book I read, only that he had an unique style and I wanted to read more.
„I wanted all things
To seem to make some sense,
So we could all be happy, yes,
Instead of tense.
And I made up lies
So that they all fit nice,
And I made this sad world
A par-a-dise.“
At least the first two lines apply to Dr. L;)
I love those lines, too!
It’s not self-delusional, but takes a master of Living Art to make “this sad world” a par-a-dies”!
I wish I could be a 100% Bokononist, just in a smaller, personal scale…
I’m in a bad place today. I’ve been doing so good. But I want to call her. I’m trying to distract myself. Please Miss Lovisa tell me what to do. You always know what to say to make me fell better. Momma Livosa I don’t know where to go? I’m going to pray for her and her daughter. And lay with Momma and be there.
I wish I could help you Brother. My advice is don’t do it. Keep distracting yourself. It won’t accomplish a thing.
Tell Momma you love her, put on some Dope Lemon and dance the night away. That or King Floyd.. You can then thank me later..
If you think you’re having a bad day, I’ve been having a bad month and a half. Now that this new Coffeehouse has come up, I’ll try to tell you more about it. I’ll make an effort to update here soon.
In Solidarity..
🤜🏻🤛🏻
Hi Adam,
Really feeling for you. Just get through the wave. I read an article about grief this morning, which included a quote that resonated with my experience of limerence. I don’t want to trivialise the enormity of grief but occasionally there are some similarities:
“Sometimes the grief is gentle like a wave you just like to have around you, and feel it and reminisce about it.
“Other times it just smashes you. It knocks you flying, and knocks you for six with the power of it. And there’s just nothing you can do, but go with the flow.”
Adam, your faith in me is so sweet! Thank you!
This is a tricky situation for sure. I am reading “Motivational Interviewing” right now because my son’s therapist recommended that I learn not to address problems directly. I hesitate to advise you because it would be direct. Hmmmmm, I’m thinking about how to approach this. Of course I have thoughts that I think would be helpful solutions, but I’m trying to think of the best way to approach the solution.
I’ll try reflecting. Please forgive me if I’m not good at it.
You are going through a rough patch today. Your body thinks that contact with LO will lift your spirits so you’re feeling tempted to reach out to her. You feel conflicted because you recognize that reaching out to LO doesn’t align with your overall values. You are choosing to seek greater closeness with your wife to soothe your discomfort. Seeking closeness with Momma is an appropriate way to handle your feelings.
Did I get it? I wonder what is triggering your big feelings. I could be wrong, but I’m trying to put a word to what you’re feeling and my best guess is loneliness. Please feel free to correct me.
MJ
Loving that Dope Lemon song still. Glad you shared it with me back in the day.
Aggie
Similar to quotes you posted, I remember what another former co-worker told me when I lamented about LO leaving; people that come into our lives are either a lesson or a blessing. Almost three years later I don’t know if I can figure out which one she was/is. Thank you for your kind words.
Momma Lovisa!
Are you kidding? Of course you got it right. You always get it right. I am glad that I got it right and did it right. I just contemplate the trigger. Not sure what set off my relapse. It was an otherwise uneventful day. I guess the best part is the past is in the past and today is a new day. Thank you for being there for me yesterday Miss Lovisa. Momma bear always there for me. Both my Momma bears. Hope that you and yours are doing well Miss Lovisa. Remind Mr Lovisa, no trying to put Miss Lovisa in the microwave! 🙂
That’s funny, Adam. I reminded Mr Lovisa of the microwave incident recently and I told him how adorable he is.
You mentioned something else in a different post and I wonder if it’s related to your recent setback. You mentioned that the people at work don’t know anything about your family. I was surprised because when I was working, I knew a lot about my coworkers’ personal lives. Of course, the fact that I was usually the only female so they came to me with questions might have something to do with it. I don’t know. But it seems like we had a family atmosphere and we knew whose kids were doing what sports and stuff like that. I assumed that all offices were friendly like that. Heck, I even knew about the home lives of some of our subcontractors and clients. I don’t know where I would have filled my needs for emotional intimacy if I hadn’t been filling it at work. I guess I was also getting those needs met at church and in my neighborhood. I was pretty closed off at school and at the gym back then (I’m not sure why) so I wasn’t good at making friends in either of those places (well, besides my LO1).
So I’ve been pondering… I wonder where Adam gets his emotional intimacy needs met.
Miss Lovisa
I had an interesting thing happen to me earlier last week. And your comment here has been making me think about that.
A co-worker sent me an invitation via email to attend her and her husband’s vow renewal in July of this year. Which was quite a shock to me, as I never really felt that familiar with her that she would invite, me a co-worker, to something so personal. I don’t know how many other co-workers she might have also invited as the invitation came only to my email alone.
So I asked Momma last night if she would like to come with me, so I can properly answer my co-worker’s invitation. Momma said “Is SHE going to be there?” My co-worker works in the same office LO did, but started after LO left. So I told Momma that I did not think they knew each other outside of both having worked there. Momma said if I wanted her to come with me I would have to find out. “I’m not going if SHE’S going to be there.” Which is fair enough. I get it. I honestly don’t think I should go if I knew she was going to be at the event myself.
Then my boss is going through a separation for about a month now (at least for now, possible divorce in the future) with his second wife. She has already moved out with her son (from her previous marriage) of their home and is living somewhere else. So I get to be the sound board for him when it comes to that. Which is difficult as I can’t really take his side, but at the same time, I don’t want to come off like an a$$hole. But he knows, I do not have much sympathy for him for the way he treats women. All the while shaking my head he is also using his first ex wife and mother of their son (who cheated on him) as a sound board too.
Then Christmas Eve last year our son comes home and wants me to take a walk with him so he can tell me about his relationship problems. That he brought on himself. I told him don’t be a damn fool like your father. Stay with [current gf] and leave the rest of the women alone. Or be honest you don’t want to be with her anymore and stop making her suffer. She may not take you back like your mother did me.
You know how your first lady friend of 2 years did you when she dumped you in a damn text? Remember that? So don’t do what she did to you to [current gf]. I didn’t tell our son this but thought “I am so glad your brother has not shown an interest in boys or girls”.
So to answer your question Miss Lovisa … I guess when Adam isn’t busy with everyone else’s he’ll have time for his own.
That’s funny, Adam.
My son’s therapist talks about his personal life. Sometimes we get so in depth about his life that he thanks me for giving him a therapy session. I think it’s good and healthy to talk with trustworthy people whenever the opportunity presents itself.
As far as your boss goes, my SO has a friend who tells my SO things that shock both of us. First, we are surprised that my SO’s friend engages in despicable behavior. Second, we are surprised that he openly talks about it.
I’m concerned that you are inflating the magnitude of your behavior to your family. You didn’t do anything despicable. You developed feelings for a woman at work, but you handled it honorably. I don’t think you should insult your integrity when you’re talking to your son because he might think you did something that you didn’t do.
I am baffled by vow renewals. What is the purpose? My best guess is that someone cheated and the couple set new boundaries and they want to make their new boundaries public knowledge. Are there any other reasons to renew vows? Attention seeking? I just don’t understand it. It’s cool that you are willing to attend the vow renewal.
Lovisa,
maybe they just wanted to throw a party and needed a reason?;) I mean, of course there’s the question why, but actually, why not…
Yeah, Adam, you keep beating yourself up when you didn’t actually *do* anything.
As for vow renewals, my parents did that when I was maybe 10. They had eloped, and I remember my mom being excited about the renewal, so I would suppose it was a way for her to finally get her big church wedding.
Mila, you have a good point.
Serial Limerent, your answer makes sense! Good for your mom!
We have some friends who did a vow renewal after the wife cheated and left her husband for another man. When they got back together, they renewed their vows. I haven’t known many other couples who renewed their vows so whenever I hear about a vow renewal, I wonder if someone cheated.
Thanks for sharing other reasons that people renew their vows.
Hang in there, my friend Adam. I was also doing so well, and have had some not so good days recently. I agree with other LwL friends that you should resist the temptation to call her. The urge will be strong, and its not easy to fight it, but fight we must, because that is the right thing to do. Ride this out Adam, I am sure you will feel better.
Probably too late (have been keeping off here and busy), but don’t do it!
I think recently what I have noticed is the surges of needing to reach out can be one of two things – either something else throws you off course, and the psyche is trying to avoid dealing with it, so looks for familiar comforts, or it is the tension as the psyche finally make a step forward in letting go, sort of like the pressure in a bottle just before the lid pops (that metaphor feels wrong, but maybe you understand what im getting at).
I think i’m just trying to say think about what else might be going on and hold strong, maybe you are close to a small breakthrough on the route out of LE.
I wish I could help you Brother. My advice is don’t do it. Keep distracting yourself. It won’t accomplish a thing.
Tell Momma you love her, put on some Dope Lemon and dance the night away. That or King Floyd.. You can then thank me later..
If you think you’re having a bad day, I’ve been having a bad month and a half. Now that this new Coffeehouse has come up, I’ll try to tell you more about it. I’ll make an effort to update here soon.
In Solidarity..
🤜🏻🤛🏻
DrL,
I just found the YT video clip I was trying to link on “Twin Flames” blog but failed back then.
https://youtu.be/VBULNG4bjcU?si=fc-G1xPDW14LZsEo — Chi master puts animals to sleep.
I do not need to be a Bokononist to believe it, some COO people still practice their own style of energy work. But no one really document them; I don’t know who can explain what you’ve seen here.
„ How about for an icebreaker, people share any new year wins they’ve already enjoyed in 2025…?“
I want to share my new year win of being free of my last LE and also of finally being free of the resentful feelings that I had for a while for my XLO, since yesterday I feel blissfully serene and relaxed about the guy.
I do enjoy that and hope it lasts.
My pursuit for a better life mentally has now outweighed my longing for connection with xlo.
I wake up in the morning with the thought of “what can I do for myself today?”
LO can still present himself in my thoughts but the gut punch is gone and I now can accept that he will linger for probably a while longer. Just linger.
I don’t fight it I just accept it.
It’s glorious!
Things are as they are, we suffer because we imagined different
~ Rachel Wolchin
Great Anna! We did well even though the year is so young…Happy new year🥂!
Happy New Year Mila!
It’s going to be a good year 🙂
Hi Anna:
“My pursuit for a better life mentally has now outweighed my longing for connection with xlo”.
This is worth framing and repeating to myself every day.
“I don’t fight it I just accept it”.
I am also doing this, with some degree of success. Hope to do even better in the future. Maybe my LE has a long tail, lets see.
Hi ABCD
Sometimes my therapist words do get absorbed into my brain lol
“The more you try to fight to get LO out of your mind, the longer they will stay”
When he makes a ghost appearance, I let him. He is just an apparition of my own making.
He’s almost a stranger now I’m glad to say and an unwelcome one.
Acceptance really does work, it’s hard to do at first but just keep at it.
I hope in the near future you can chop that LE tail in half!
Sounds a lot like what I’ve heard about religious OCD: “The unwelcome blasphemous thoughts in your head aren’t demons, but rather you keep giving them attention, so your brain gives you more of them!”
Yes I have seen it put like that too – if the brain supplies an intrusive thought and we work to ‘clear’ it, the act of ‘clearing’ releases dopamine. The brain then thinks “ah, they liked that challenge” and supplies more of the intrusive thoughts to keep the challenge level going Rinse and repeat. It’s why it usually works better not to fight it.
Great to see your progress, Mila! I am glad you are free of resentment towards xLO. I hope and pray that this really lasts for you. Cheers.
To the few LwL Brethren who have asked for this update, I’m going to give this a shot. I apologize for the delay. With life happening and all that is surrounding it, it’s been extremely challenging to condense this into easier reading. Forgive me in advance for bringing the tone down. This is a long one, so grab a coffee and a muffin..
At the beginning of December, was Lady Friends bday. For months prior, I had been planning to get her a few things which I thought weren’t necessarily over the top. A hoodie, her favorite limited edition pop, and a personalized necklace. I had planned to give them to her on her bday when we got off that night. Which when I planned, she seemed perplexed I had something for her and said I shouldn’t have done that, but still agreed to meet later and interestingly enough was looking forward to it.
What ends up happening is some maintenance issues at work caused a shutdown in production. Which meant we ended up leaving work early. LF met me on her way out and was eager to leave. I had a few things to finish up and told her I’d be on my way in like 2 minutes. She said she wanted to start walking and also said she’d wait for me outside.
Upon getting outside, I saw her driving away. Almost instantly I was crushed. Thinking she wasn’t capable of being so rude to leave like that, but realizing also she just did. Dismayed and sad, I broke down once I got to my car. It felt so reminiscent of all the breakdowns I would have over LO (and still sometimes do). I thought of a whole bunch of angry texts I wanted to send her, but realized heat-of-the-moment rants weren’t going to help my cause. After all, it was still her birthday and I knew she was excited to not have to be at work now. I sat in the parking lot for almost an hour, irritated and in tears pondering my next move. Then opted to do nothing. Waiting to see if she would infact txt or call first. That was my hope at least.
My Son then called and I talked to him. Trying not to break down, I told him a little of what was going on. He was basically supportive and told me to press on and not give up. While him and I were on the phone, LF finally txtd.
She txtd that she was sorry but had to get home. I waited awhile to reply. When I replied about an hour or so later, I asked if I could meet up with her on the weekend. It was early Friday morning I sent this txt. I didn’t get a reply back till late Sunday night. There were some tense-like exchanges back and forth at first and then I asked if meeting up with her Monday sometime would be ok. She said she was just too busy. I replied we’d figure it out.. Mainly I figured she just didn’t want to deal with the emotions surrounding with what I had for her. She didn’t know what I was giving her yet. I also thought her mental bandwith probably couldn’t handle another sentimental moment like she had when I gave her the keychains in July.
By the time we got to work the next week, there was nothing but awkward silence. Her body language was very cold and it reminded me of all those awkward LO run-ins, where I went into Deer-in-headlights mode and couldn’t think of getting one word out that sounded coherent. Surprising and disappointed as hell, considering we’d become such better friends than this by now. So I thought.
She saw another one of her guy friends, that I’ve always known she’s somewhat close to. They hugged, talked and pretty much blew me off. All of a sudden, I was the odd man out. I guess I could have called her on it but I didn’t. I know the guy. I’m actually friends with him but what happens just gets worse. I said very little to her and what ever I was saying was all mumbly, nervous nonsense. Nothing was getting through. This went on for days.
Finally she txtd me again and in it said, “you do know we’re just friends right?”
I replied “Of course I know that”, but it then led to a sappy texted disclosure of sorts from me. In which I txt how much “I’ve loved getting to know you (LF)” and that “I remember you telling me dating Co-Workers is not on your to do list.” Or that, “I won’t ever expect much, but that the idea of you (LF) is intriguing..” Then I segued into telling her I feel like the Universe kinda opens up sometimes when her and I talk. (Which probably was the comment where I went off the rails). Trying to be nothing but respectful, I suppose I expected her to be smitten somewhat in return, but she was not.
When she replied back, almost 6 hours later, her txt was more in the baffled and confused tone. (Exactly what Ms. Lovisa said would happen if I ever did that.. She’s so gonna whoop me for this.. 😫)
LF basically said we’re just friends and that’s all we’ll ever be. That I’m putting too much on her right now and it’s not where she’s at.. While I really wasn’t surprised by this statement, it still took days to recover us back into a somewhat normal friendship of sorts again. Anytime I tried talking about what I txtd her in my disclosure, she simply went into her Anxious Avoidant personality, and almost freaked on me every time. Once I started talking about work, or her family or anything other than my disclosure, she was fine. I can tell now that easily our dynamic has changed and at first I kinda thought I’d ruined everything but slowly she has started coming back around to her old self. Unfortunately though along with that, I also found out something I didn’t want to or need to know about.
The issue I’m going thru now with LF is that her and I have established the fact she’s not interested in really dating Co-Workers. (Key word “Dating”) Because I now know that her and that other Co-Worker I mentioned above are involved in a PA. I saw something I didn’t like while being out and about one night in a location near work. And the main issue I’m having with that is that he is married, with a family. I don’t really need to go into reasons how I know this but have all the proof I need that at some level, it’s definitely a PA. Of course its none of my business but I guess I figured she was always being honest with me about her personal life. I wanted to believe it.. I know she’s very family oriented, religious and seemingly a very decent person. Unfortunately there is a dark side I didn’t see. I knew her and this other guy were always kinda close, but she never mentions him in any capacity to me. I’m actually friends with the guy too, which makes this even more hurtful. I actually like him, talk to him often at work. I suppose I always wanted to give both of them the benefit of the doubt, but knowing this now just feels shitty and ugly and I feel almost slighted by the both of them. If I dare ever call her out, I could lose 2 good friends and who knows the fallout around work-life that might develop because of it. I’m backed into a damn corner again and there is nothing I can do about it.. So, in other words, she won’t get involved with me because she’s already invested in him. And this is why it was emotional overload whenever I tried stepping into that arena and disclose..
I guess where I’m drawing the line here is that I was trying to come to her with nothing but the absolute best of intent. Sure I’ve known all along we’re really only friends.. We’ve spent almost the whole last year getting to know one another and I was seeing her as such a genuinely good Woman, recovering and getting over her breakup with her boyfriend of 10+ years. Yes, I’ve kinda been falling for her a little bit too. Probably way more than a little. I really didn’t see this coming. While she’s mentioned getting on anti depressants and getting into therapy, she says she still suffers from anxious thoughts often and always a serious lack of sleep. This situation now explains why that is I think. I probably would be too if I was in her situation. This also explains why she won’t even meet me for a simple cup of coffee..
But I don’t want this for LF because I know I can still offer her so much better. I went into this friendship with her trying to get out of what ever in the hell I did wrong trying to attract LO. I’ve worked my ass off trying NOT to become limerent over her and yet I’m feeling almost all the same pains and hurts, very similar to what limerence made me feel like. Like almost stepping on to the same boat. Out of the frying pan and into the fryer. What in the hell else could go wrong??
Did I ever get those gifts to her you ask? No I did not. They are in my master closet still wrapped with purple bows waiting for her to tear into them. She’s going through a phase of ghosting me on txt again but still being polite and very nice to me at work. I’ve been in a serious phase of strict LC, almost trying to go NC, but it’s so damn hard avoiding her. I see her looking out for me often and looking to make eye contact with me. It’s the one thing left her and I have, that’s always been a sure thing between us. No matter how we are, good or bad. I tell myself we’ll be alright because sometimes it’s just on a pass-her-by or a look from her across the way, maybe a smile that keeps me wanting her. Or at least me trying to communicate to her through my eyes I still like her and really like being her friend. That I’m not mad or wanting to avoid her. Somehow I feel like she knows this. Like subconsciously maybe. I don’t know. I’m probably just an idiot for thinking it. She’s a different generation and as a 30 year old, probably doesn’t even slightly get how she affects me. (I suppose I wouldn’t have been able to understand it at 30 either, if a 53 year old Woman was into me then). Women are a lot different now than they were 30 years ago. Being back on the market is hard, which is why I’ll tell anyone here not to f— up their marriage. It’s not worth it and the dating market is vicious as hell..
Lady Friend really is a beautiful Woman though and I’m still so crazy for her but this hurts man. It really freaking hurts.
MJ My Brother
I am at a lost for words for the sorrow you are going through now. I am sure that it feels like drowning in the ocean with no one reaching out to help you. But I am here for you my brother. Take my hand. We’ll get through this.
I am sorry to hear, in the end, that LF hasn’t been honest with you. Being led on is quite a crushing feeling, limerence or not. I know, from before I met Momma, that the “kindness” of being led on can, and is, more crushing of a blow than straight out honesty. But I can’t say I can relate to the discovery you made of LF’s personal life. That is not at all something I can even pretend to relate to.
“After all, it was still her birthday and I knew she was excited to not have to be at work now.”
And that is what makes you, you MJ. I remember thinking how devastating it was that just an “everyday goodbye” was enough from her in the moment of her leaving. I do not know what I honestly expected to happen … some romance-comedy ending? I know it is not the same as your case, and I am just trying to somewhat relate ….? I wanted to say something. Hug her? Say what I felt about her? But those things wouldn’t help her. Might satiate my feelings, but not help her. You’ve done the same. You didn’t spite her. Throw what you now know about her in her face.
Do I want to call her to tell her that this man she is with has nothing but dirt on his mind? Do I want to say that no one dating that much younger ….. and then I thought … maybe he is as good of a man as MJ. Maybe 20 years younger doesn’t matter because there are good men in the world like MJ. And maybe LO has found her MJ and Adam just needs to STFU. That’s the God honest truth MJ. You kept me from making a huge mistake. But then also I remembered that I didn’t go to church yesterday and MJ was gonna be on my a$$ about that lol
I appreciate your response yesterday, I know I called out for Miss Lovisa, but I knew if you saw my post you would say something, my brother. I have good people here to help me. My respites are becoming more frequent than my relapses and the future looks brighter (though I have no shades).
You are a good man MJ. We all have our sins to atone for. It’s why after 20 plus years of absence I came back to church after a little more than a year ago. I thought I had exceeded “God shall not tempt you beyond what you can bear” but here I am on the other side of the greatest temptation I can ever come across in life. There’s a gal out there for MJ. Which I know seems outlandish between LO and LF.
Interestingly enough I got an email from one of my female co-workers. She’s been here for about a year and half. So I open this email and it is an electronic invitation to her and her husband’s vow renewal in July. She invited my wife and I if we want to come. We are planning on attending and accepted her invite. I never knew that I even registered as more than a co-worker to her that I would have even been in her mind to invite.
You never know what surprises that life has for you sometimes. So maybe you finding out what you did was more of a blessing than a curse. I remember for a very long time, and still even now if I am being honest, L.E. posted something that was a really harsh truth. And for a long time, again even now, it upset me. But L.E. is good at dishing out unapologetic truths (and you wonder why I asked of Miss Lovisa and not L.E. yesterday lol). He said in regards to LO’s track record with men … (hope I get this right) “It’s not always about the relationships, but the people in the relationships” Which makes me have to consider LO’s responsibility in her relationships. And I didn’t/don’t like that. It’s quite obviously all these cads’ fault because they didn’t treat her right. She’s an angel.
There’s someone out there for you MJ. Just like there is someone who CONTINULY chooses to be there for me. Despite all I have put her through she is still here for me. Even yesterday. The real angel in all of this. And you will find yours too MJ. Until then, my brother, I am here for you. Cheers.
@Adam,
I don’t even know where to begin Brother. Can’t even begin to say how much I appreciate your words and reaching out to my pathetic a$$.. Thank you.. From the bottom of my heart.. Thank you. 🙏🏼🙏🏼
While I must admit there is a huge degree of letdown in this episode, I still do not believe it has caused me the anxiety that happened when LO transferred next door. I feel like establishing early on upon meeting LF, that becoming limerent over her was not an option. There are elements here that have probably been somewhat limerence-like but the ups and downs have seemed less treacherous. I don’t cry in the same way over LF, but have probably come close. I have felt glimmer moments over her, just never like it was with LO. Perhaps it’s just light limerence this time. (If there is such a thing). It just doesn’t hurt me the same like everything did with LO.
It’s the feeling of coming away again with almost nothing to show for my year-long efforts, while my other Co-Worker guy friend gets to keep cheating on his SO with my LF.
I mean the logic there is beyond my comprehension now. I simply don’t know what good this guy is doing for her (other than the obvious) and how being the kind of simple and super nice and down to earth guy he always appears to be, can actually live with himself. All while knowing (or perhaps not knowing) the emotional and mental assault he’s putting on her. I mean her and I have talked about that, but she’s always painted it like it was family related or an issue with her Ex. That her anxiety flares up often. How she never sleeps good at night because she’s anxious all the time.. Almost anything but a PA. And of all things, a PA with another Co-Worker that works about as far away from her as I do. This after her telling me to my face that Co-Workers aren’t dateable. Leaving me all to assume PAs must be the ok alternative. Please please come pick me up off this floor Brother because I just don’t freakin get it.
Thank you for believing in me and my kindness. Although I feel very far from deserving such a compliment. Cheating pricks like myself, who spent almost their entire marriage oggling every other female that passed me by must atone for those sins somehow. Is it any wonder I’m being put thru this emotional wringer? I should get why Dude is all over LF. Its because she’s hot. I had a family once too but I didn’t care. I liked the hot ones too and stopped at nothing to get at them.
Growing up, my Father used to tell me stories of men he worked with, that were cheating on their Wives. He told me stories of his own Father, who was a serial Womanizer and fraud to my own Grandmother. Our neighbor, that cheated on his Wife early on in their marriage. In all these instances at some point, these men got a serious sickness, had a heart attack or stroke, or just died. He told me these stories because he believed God has a way of dealing with men who cheat on their Wives. Through sickness, hospitalization or other means to try to bring that cheating matter to attention. In a way I feel I have been no exception. God has dealt me with me accordingly. I’m paying the price now. And like I’ve mentioned in other posts, I believe it’s all about retribution.
As for you missing Church on Sunday, I don’t think God is going to punish you, but I am glad I helped you out in a situation you were considering. Just remember, even if you had reached out to her, what would you have said? Would it have been that fantasy come true or filling the small void Momma still isn’t filling? (What would you do with the information if you had it?) It’s noble of you to want to be the better man and step up to rescue her. Hopefully her guy is making her feel validated.. I feel like I’m sort of having a rescue complex trying to reach LF to help get her out of her situation. I know it can’t be good for her psyche. Yet again here I am now with information I’d rather not have and there’s still not simple damn thing I can ever do about it. At least not without losing 2 good Friends now. What a horse$#!+ conundrum this has turned into..
Unlike many others that post here, I have no SO to ever go and just drink coffee with. So I’m actually jealous that many come here with an SO, that in many cases would somewhat like to be with their LO. Being a serial cheater myself at one time and going thru a divorce was awful. Although it probably is deserved to a degree. How can it not?? I would love to know what love is like again. I would love to show the right person. I know I can and will do better. When will God answer this prayer? I simply don’t know..
I pray Adam you’ll find whatever it is you might still be missing with Momma, that’s luring you down a dark alley. To a LO desire that will probably leave you feeling more defeated than anything and nothing like you expect, should you ever dare do it.
You say Momma is your Angel and I believe you. What you can and should do now is go and put that sparkle back in her eyes. Remember why you married her. I know you can do this. I believe in you..
Thanks again Brother.
Please stay in touch..
@MJ
I feel compelled to give you an alternative view as I have done so many times in the past. Your anger is oozing off the screen as I read and I feel it is not only misdirected, but unjustified.
If I put myself in LF’s shoes, I feel pretty certain I’m correct on this interpretation because I’ve experienced it so much myself. Let me put it in the context of a relationship I had.
I did a student exchange and stayed with a host family. I had the most amazing host father who was so different from my own father and I just adored him. We sat and chatted about nothing much almost every day. The ONLY thing I wanted (and ever received) out of that relationship was the father/daughter bond my dad never gave me. If I imagine him ever becoming intense with me or crossing that boundary I’d feel physically sick.
I realise you were trying to take my advice of not ‘flying through her window’, BUT you took a lot longer to admit your feelings than you should have. There was definitely a communication sweet-spot and I think you missed it. I’m pretty sure I mentioned this last year some time, but maybe not. She thought you were her friend and as someone who thought she had friends and then gradually over time realised that not one single man in her life was actually ever her friend, it feels like a punch in the gut. Like you just can’t trust any men at all.
If that’s the case, why not engage in a PA? Her choice to be with your married friend is her business. The whole ‘I don’t date coworkers’ is likely something I’d say to give you the message I wasn’t interested in you. She doesn’t owe you any explanation for what she’s doing with the other dude. My guess is that she possibly jumped into it to feel safer. How? Because she knew you would back off if there was another man involved and if he’s a coworker, he quite literally provides her with a physical barrier of protection.
Women feel vulnerable all the time. When men are disingenuous and present as one thing but then let the huge emotions they were bottling up finally ooze out, the intensity is akin to being exposed to toxic waste because I can feel their desperation. My whole body goes into fight or flight. I dissociate. I cannot think. It is traumatic in the extreme. Like I’d probably have the same response if someone threatened me with physical harm that’s how awful it feels. I would bet money that’s how LF felt when you told her you had a birthday gift for her. That kind of desperate emotion is not healthy. It is you needing her to prove to you that you are worthwhile. Men who know their worth do not behave that way. Their self esteem does not hang in the balance depending on her response.
I’m also going to double down on this whole God-fearing stuff because what I see a lot of is God-fearing folk doing absolutely heinous things. You know why? Because they fear God and his wrath rather than see God as love and firstly love of self. Why? I don’t believe in a wrathful God. I believe in a uniting ‘God’. There’s no ‘heaven’. There’s only purity of ’self’ which is actually inside every single one of us and when you tap into that, what could be more ‘heavenly’?? The people who behave the worst are the ones who are hardest on themselves. No compassion for yourself? You will find a way to hurt others. If God can love you, why can’t you love you?? God is not punishing you for anything. YOU are punishing you. Step out of ego and try and step into ’self’. Way easier said than done, but how do you want to spend the rest of your life?
So go easy on LF. She has done nothing wrong to you and while her PA shows a lack of integrity, after thinking a while I believe I can understand her potential motives. You keep writing like you think this other guy has ’won’. Won what?? She’s not a prize. You ‘put in a year of work’?? Work?? Can you step back and read what you have written and see how you don’t really value her for her. You value her for how she could make you feel about yourself. You are right that you think you want to rescue her. But MJ, for the love of ‘whatever God you believe in’ you still have a ways to go to rescue yourself first.
My host father passed away last year. I cried for days. The love that he showed me and how safe I felt with him to never treat me as someone who was there to validate his ego was one of the most beautiful things anyone has ever done for me. He will forever be one of my most favourite people in the world.
MJ
“It’s the feeling of coming away again with almost nothing to show for my year-long efforts, while my other Co-Worker guy friend gets to keep cheating on his SO with my LF.”
Just a word of caution, my brother, as I think also Call Me Cordilla mentioned as well, (and I know how highly you think of her) this is not a situation that she can be rescued from. I know you know that and I know that. And despite knowing that, I don’t even know your LF, and feel that urge to blame him and make him the bad guy.
MJ if there is one thing I excel at, is beating myself up over my past. Maybe this is God trying to move you in the right direction by having you feel the pain that you might have done to others in your past. But that’s not God punishing you. Like the Pawn in chess you can’t always get to where you want as fast as the Rook, but you can still make that first step or first two steps forward. That’s progress no matter how slow. The Rook can also move backwards fast too. But no one but God can take you off the chess board. Always forward my brother. You know I am always here for you.
“Please please come pick me up off this floor Brother because I just don’t freakin get it.”
I told Momma about your predicament last night. And she is feeling your pain too. She said that it is “cruel what they have done to him” and that she “can’t imagine what having that information they don’t know about and doing the noble thing”. Most people would feel spited and might use that information against them. You are doing the right thing MJ. I can’t imagine the hurt of feeling “used” by her and betrayed by a friend in such a way.
Try to hold your head up. You are good man despite your past. We can never atone for our sins from God, but he already forgives us through the sacrifice of his son Jesus.
I remember when the pastor was talking about how the Holy Spirit resides in all of us. I told him after Bible class that because of my past that I don’t deserve the Holy Spirit. I can never earn that. He told me I was right. I can’t earn it. None of us deserve it. But that God gives it to us freely. We don’t have to ask for it. It is his gift to us. It’s the same with our sins of the past. They are forgiven in Jesus’ name. It is our obligation to use the Holy Spirit and the forgiveness through Jesus to make a better future. And as far as I can tell MJ you are/have learned from your past. So don’t punish yourself with it. I will trust God that she is in a good place under his watchful eye. Perhaps your reaction to this entire situation will speak to LF and your co-worker. And they will find a better path than the one that they are now.
I changed. 20 something me was so filled with so much sin, anger and debauchery. If I can change to the point most people in my past would not even know the Adam of now. I thank Momma, our boys and God that I am who I am now. Because I don’t know if I’d even be alive if it weren’t for Momma, MJ. Probably drunk and dead in a ditch.
“I would love to know what love is like again. I would love to show the right person. I know I can and will do better. When will God answer this prayer?”
I often wonder that. I prayed for her two Sundays ago. That God would keep her and daughter safe, and that is as far as I am going with this. I have to trust that God will keep her safe and move on. I also prayed, in the same prayer, thanking God for bringing Momma to me when he did. I may not have know that back then, but I know it now. Was LO my temptation in desert? Did I pass? Will I let God lead my away from temptation again? I hope so. Just like God will lead the right woman to you my friend. And then maybe you and her can let God lead you in a wonderful, lasting and righteous marriage. It is never too late MJ.
” I know you can do this. I believe in you..”
I’m glad someone believes in me. Cause some days I don’t in myself. Especially after what I recounted about last night that I posted somewhere in this thread to Miss Lovisa.
Stay strong and determined my brother. The Devil can’t keep us down forever.
Hi MJ,
my heart goes out to you, it must have felt horrible to have prepared the gifts and seeing her driving away!
Still, I second Limerent Nurse here, as harsh as the truth might be, she told you she‘s definitely not interested in more than friendship, and I think she‘s plainly scared that you might ignore her words and stalk her or something. I think that is why she doesn’t want to take the gifts, she’s scared that if she takes them, you might get the wrong idea.
Maybe she had bad experiences with someone. I think the best you can do is stay away like from a scared animal and show her your bare hands, so to say-make it clear you completely got what she was saying and that you don’t put any romantic expectation on her any more. Once she can trust that you are ok with just being friends, she will feel safe enough to be friends again.
To the situation with the other coworker- of course that hurts too. It’s still their business and I think maybe should should just stay away from this situation for a while. Maybe you can use it to see her in a less favorable way- she seems to be a different person than you thought she was.
But well, we don’t know the whole story of her and him, and who are we to judge (or me)- I would just keep silent about it and come to your own conclusions but not call them out on it.
I get that the whole package hurts as hell, though.
@Mila,
Thank you for your words. What you said makes a lot of sense. It’s just so crazy to me though how innocently I come to this situation and it all blows up in my face.
It did hurt to see her driving off but my kindness last time giving her the keychains, really moved her emotionally. She almost cried and I remember her telling me nobody else has ever been that thoughtful towards her. To me that’s just so crazy too. Like am I the only one that’s ever been this nice to her?? How many losers has she been with?? I’d love to bring someone like her, home to meet Mom. Too bad Mom is dead..
Right now she’s getting a very strict diet of serious LC from me. I’m pretty sure it’s confusing the hell out of her. She’s been saying hello and being extra polite upon seeing me. I’m being polite back and I’ll say hi or what’s up? But I’m not engaging in conversation. I probably will eventually but for now it’s fun making her wonder. She knows something is different. I still have to work with her so I don’t want to make things too awkward between us.
Just have to work on my strategy how I handle things now. Building the trust back, like you mention would be a very helpful start.
“I’m pretty sure it’s confusing the hell out of her. She’s been saying hello and being extra polite upon seeing me.”
Ya think?
Giving your LO gifts is one of the most self-serving things you can do. Any kind of permanent gift is a reminder of you, which is what we shoot for. If you’re married, it’s also one of the indicators of an emotional affair, especially if you’re keeping it a secret from your SO.
Giving your LO a gift card to Starbucks is one thing. Sending your PsyD LO a coffee mug with “Nobody likes a Passive-Aggressive Person” on it or commissioning a cartoonist to sketch her on the inside cover of a book he wrote, is something else. Don’t ask me know this.
Interestingly, LO #4 had me send them to her via her mother. I don’t know if she didn’t want me to know where she lived or she didn’t want her live-in BF to get the mail and start asking questions. LEs can get complicated. After she moved out, she gave me her new address.
Since LO #4 and I didn’t exactly end things on the best of terms, she may not have kept them. But, again, if she did, she’ll always remember me. Maybe not fondly, but she’ll remember.
I used to have a lot of pictures of LO #2. Now, I’m down to two. There were only two known pictures of LO #2 and I together. One of them was us at a Navy Ball. Someone cut LO #2 out of the picture. I suspect my wife but she denied it. I know that I didn’t do it. I have no idea what happened to the other picture. It was taken at my cousin’s wedding.
LO #2 and I were in a real relationship for 4 years. We gave each other a lot of things. I still have some of them and I’ll never get rid of them. They’re things that my wife can’t directly associate with LO #2, like the leather driving gloves and pewter dragon wine stop LO #2 gave me. I gave LO #2 some expensive jewelry. If she kept it, she’ll always remember who it came from.
So, you give her a constant reminder of you and then waffle? Key chains can be used every day. That’s not a good look.
MJ,
The realization that your LO “just isn’t into you” can be really hard.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-dreams/#comment-8340
Hey MJ,
I am glad you felt strong enough to finally get this off your chest. Its been a few weeks now. Did you get any fresh perspectives from typing this all out? I mean, is the pain and discomfort still as fresh as when it all happened?
To add to what Lovisa, Mila, Imho, Trifles and CMC have said, I would like to give you my perspective. As a lady/ woman. The age difference is key here, I think. That has repercussions for how you two may relate in so many ways – most of them are a challenge even with the best of intentions on both sides. But one important one is sexual attraction. This doesnt happen anymore because, at this point, I feel like I am as tough as an old boot, but as a younger woman, I was very easily freaked out by the naked interest of men *especially* older men. I say “naked interest” because that is sometimes how it felt to me. I was young and attractive and men would react, sometimes quite strongly. It happened a few times at work, sometimes with people senior to me, my boss (say), where I felt that I needed to be agreeable and was quite freaked out and a bit angry about it at times. Now that I think about it, I remember feeling freaked out a lot by men generally when I was a teenager and in my 20s. The point is, I needed to grow out of that and it took decades. LF and LO are maybe not able to handle your naked interest. The intensity of limerence and how that leaks out around a LO would amplify that discomfort by orders of magnitude (and what you’re describing as your feelings for LF has begun to edge closer to an LE, maybe?).
LF has done you a massive favour in souring the well water, as it were, by going off with someone new, illicitly. The affair is a perfect antidote, I would say, a perfect sign from the Universe to “move on” and a great opportunity not to let LF develop any further into a LO#2. You dont want another LE and now have an opportunity to prevent that. But getting yourself to a happier mindset, more generally, is really important. Why dont you join a choir or a band or musical theatre group? You are talented. Work is just work and the romantic possibilities there are hopelessly limited. Go where the attractive women in their 40s and 50s hang out?
MJ you dont want to waste precious time, my friend. Get out there!
Hi MJ. Wow, you really went through a lot there. I am really sorry for all the hurt that you must be feeling. I know the feeling. When LO ignores you, it is a devastating feeling, and is something that I have experienced on a couple of occasions. Took me days to get out of each of those episodes. You got some texts from LO explaining the situation, I got nothing.
I may not be one to give advice on the right thing to do, as I have my ongoing LE situations, but it may be good to let LO know that you get what she is trying to say, and that you respect her feelings. You may need to dial down in your interaction with LO, like just talk about work. Over time, she would become more comfortable, and your equation would improve, I am sure.
Regarding find out about her PA, that’s gotta hurt too. In the past, I have struggled with jealousy issues, like when I saw LO chatting with other people. Now, with really reduced contact, this feeling of jealousy has dialled down. Plus, I am really making an effort in not checking her out on socials. This has helped.
If there is anything that I learned from my LE, it is that no matter how low I feel, it always gets better eventually, I feel better every single time. Big thanks to the awesome LwL friends here — you, Adam, Lovisa, Mila, Bewitched, IMHO, SpeedWagon, Emeritus, Snow …
Hang in there, my friend MJ. We are all with you. Take care.
MJ,
I am so so sorry to hear all these events and all the pain you’ve been through along the way. Well done for getting it out. I am glad that despite all that, it doesn’t feel like quite as intense a storm as it did with LO.
Other LwL brethren have beaten me to the best words in answer, so I will just limit myself to a couple of thoughts for now, but I am here to listen and help when needed.
You haven’t done anything wrong here. However, what others have said here about now needing to accept her answer is definitely spot on. To think about – do you still want her as a friend now that you are in possession of all this information about her?
If yes, you need to revert to what worked before and stay with it. If she wants to talk to you about any more personal topic, she will do that with time if you make things comfortable. If she doesn’t, then don’t force it again.
If no, then you are within your rights to gently slip out of the friendship and do no more than be professional with her at work. I would say you are also within rights to confront her with what you know about her and married co-worker + the ‘co-workers are undateable’ statement. But that depends on whether your information about the PA is watertight, and also on the time-honoured LwL question “what’s your fairytale outcome?”. Would anything be achieved by doing that other than ill feeling? Maybe not. Could it be easier to just quietly turn the other way?
As to her motivations in covering it up and in saying that co-workers are undateable … I am not defending it, but one possibility is that she caught wind of your feelings in the summer after the gift, and wanted to spare your feelings by not telling you about this co-worker. Maybe she is also embarrassed about being in a PA (though yeah she has it in her power to change that) and didn’t want it to come out. Not defending it, just trying to second guess her thinking.
You kind of answered your own question about how he can live with himself when you said some people will stop at nothing to get the hot ones (all while wanting to maintain a veneer of respectability at work – my addition).
“So I’m actually jealous that many come here with an SO, that in many cases would somewhat like to be with their LO”
Yep 🙋♂️I know I am one of the ones that you refer to. And yeah, it’s true, and I can see why it would be hard to read. The thing to point out is that very few of us here who are in that position are *acting* on it. The magnet towards LO is quite biological, but it is possible to hold it at bay while we try to understand it and get past it. This coworker of yours obviously has less resistance.
Hang in there my friend, there are lots of us here for you to listen and suggest. The Inn is open 24-7 here
Oh man MJ, that is brutal. I was really hoping for you, but seems you were allowed to walk up the garden path.
Many people here have written kind words and given good advice, so I will mostly just echo that, but with one positive upside. I also have one clarification question.
Advice – Don’t give her the gifts, throw them away, don’t confront her about her relationship, do keep your distance.
If you are selfish and just think about you, there are only two positive potential outcomes – minimize the hurt you feel, and don’t make a problem for yourself at work.
She was never a ‘true’ friend, you had a romantic interest in her, which she clearly knew, and you accepted the possibility of more while she accepted the potential pain for you in return for friendship and validation, but the risks you take with your heart are on you, not her. Given you were not limerent, which I want to believe, you should be able to return to friendship at some point in the future without danger if you want it. She will likely also welcome this, even if she looks for contact, remember she is in an affair with a married man, she probably continues to want the emotional validation she got from you, as she is likely coming up short in her affair. Getting validation from the opposite sex is a frequent landmine in opposite sex relationships and not bad per se, but just dont confuse it with something else. She was friends with you for multiple reasons, that hasn’t likely gone away.
Questions about her character etc. are irrelevant, she has clearly stated she doesn’t want a relationship so you should only think about whether she is a friend that genuinely adds value to your life, or for whom you each genuinely wish the best for each other. I don’t agree with others here that no is always forever, I know many people who have gotten together years later, but with age gap, coworker etc. this is not one of those IMO.
Now to the clarification, you saw them together after or at the same time all of this happened?
And the upside – you had an interest in someone and it was seemingly non limerent. This is the normal pain of rejection, which goes away after a few months. Try to keep it that way – you can become limerent in the aftermath and end up making a whole mess for yourself, so be very careful and follow all the stuff that is recommended her at LwL. get out there, meet other woman etc. My cousin got divorced in his mid 40s, and is having the time of his life on the dating market, it is possible if you are relatively cold blooded about it. Just keep yourself busy dating, doing activities where other people your age are etc.
Rejection from our LOs really hurts, but I think it helps us in our recovery. Sometimes I think we really need to feel that pain to get over limerence. I’m far from over my feelings for LO #3, but I think that reminding myself of her rejection of me even as a friend is helping me in the long-run. This will get better even if it hurts right now. All the best!
@MJ,
You are a sweet man. I know your intentions were well-meant, but this young lady is trying to be nice about telling you she is not interested in a romantic relationship with you. I hope you can kindly respect her feelings and not try to push for something more.
The best thing you could do for yourself is be glad you have an answer, and move on. Moving on is hard, but it’s the best for you and for her. She doesn’t sound like she’s trying to play games. She is plainly telling you her feelings and showing by her actions. From a woman’s perspective, it’s very uncomfortable to be pursued by someone she only wants friendship with. It’s not that you did something wrong or that she’s secretly seeing someone else– if she wanted to be pursued, she would have made it known. When a man “shoots his shot” and asks for something more (a date for example) and I say, “Thank you, but I only feel friendship for you,” that should their cue to smile and bow out and know that it will never be more than friendship. It would be very disturbing to have someone keep pursuing me after that boundary was placed.
You seem like a really romantic man who’s learned a lot from his past, and wants to move on. I really admire that about you! Have you considered meeting women who are closer to your age group, like early 40s to early 50s? Or do you find that you are mostly just attracted/enamored with women in their 20s/early 30s? If a woman is young and knows an older man is attracted to her, it could freak her out if she’s not attracted to older men, especially if he keeps pursuing her.
I just wanted to give you some understanding from the female perspective, and please know that I hope you find that mutual love of your life that your heart so desires. You deserve to love and be loved in a mutual way!
💙
I second what Limerent Nurse said. She handled it with way more compassion than I could because I’m so frustrated after reading MJ’s update. (Though I do appreciate your honesty, MJ)
MJ, pursue a single woman your own age. Younger women see you as a mentor and, if you’re lucky, a friend. That is all. Stop confusing them.
MJ, sending you sympathy.
I can’t add much more to others excellent words and advice.
You are a romantic and Im sure there is someone out there for you, but you have to put yourself out there ( in the right circles/place/activities etc ).
Maybe you could consider to let go of the gifts to a family member or a charity. I love giving gifts too, so I do know it will be hard to let them go without gifting them to LF, but in doing so, it may help you to move on.
Ahhh MJ
I came on here to ask for advice and I’ve just read your whole saga. I’m sorry it didn’t work out. Just to echo what Limerent Nurse has said, you need to back away now. Given that you know she’s with a married man, I personally would keep my distance from both of them. Clearly their compasses put in the direction of trouble and it’s not your job to try and recalibrate that.
I really wish I could throw you some of my resilience because TBH, that shit would roll right off my back. When someone shows me who they are… well I know who they are and I’m not losin’ any sleep over ‘em. But I’m also lucky that I enjoy my own company and happy on my onesies. Feel well soon, friend!
Advice Please 🙏
I’m having a little issue of my own. I don’t want to detract from your post, MJ, but mine is something that’s happening tomorrow and I’m wondering how to deal with this.
I had a meeting with someone I might go into business with last week. I don’t know if he’s single but I strongly suspect he is. In fact I’m pretty sure he let it slip at one point, but I wasn’t sure if I misheard. Anyway, we vibed. No flirtation which I really love. Just respectful connection. Such a rare thing for me to encounter.
I also frequently Google myself. I’m the only person in the world with my name and after this, I think I’m changing it to ‘Smith’. When I left the meeting I had a feeling he would Google me. I google everyone I’m going to work with, date whatever. As a single woman, I feel it’s my due diligence. So I’m fine with people googling me. Anyway, for the first time ever, it came up with ‘People Also Searched For’ and the terms were ‘my name’ + ‘partner’ and ‘my name’ + ‘age’. Just from the fact that if I share my name with someone, they know my age and relationship status, it has to be someone who knew my full name but not my age or status. The list of potentials is small. Like, really, it’s only him.
I decided, given my track record, and how important this business relationship would be, I had to set boundaries early. But it’s tricky because if he was a decent person, I’d probably rather give a relationship a go and find another person to work with because I know the man I’m looking for is part unicorn (hence my lack of actual looking). So I’m treading a fine line. I just googled myself again and the search terms associated with my name have exploded. All searching my potential partners and photos. I have to admit, if I really like someone and I wanted to discreetly find out if they were single, I’d probably do something similar… maybe not quite to this extent!! I’m also just a bit concerned that if he finds out I’m single, he’ll just be stupidly flirty with me and ruin the professional relationship.
I feel that I’d rather find out now before I sign anything. But I also want to suss him out a bit because despite the manic Googling, he seemed like a decent guy. I also don’t KNOW that he googled me. But It really wouldn’t be anyone else. And if it’s not him, then I have a stalker and I’m definitely changing my name!
Essentially I need him to put his cards on the table before I can agree to work with him. How can I achieve that?? What would you do? 😩
Call me Cordelia,
I would probably do nothing?
I mean, maybe he googles you and was curious if you are single or not, maybe he’s very attracted – but that doesn’t mean he will overstep boundaries at work? It would be a bit mean to just assume he would, only based on google search.
I don’t see how you can call him out on that without embarrassing him and yourself too, to be honest.
If you didn’t know he googled you and just worked with him, you would be able to put him in his place if he came over too flirty, wouldn’t you?
Or do I misunderstand you and you mean, you would be interested in a relationship and that’s why you wouldn’t want to work with him?
But also then, there‘s too little to go on somehow, you cannot shun a potentially good business opportunity just because there might be some mutual interest?
I‘m thinking while writing, sorry.
I think, I would ignore the googling and see how he behaves in real life, I guess.
You cannot expect him to put his cards on the table if he‘s attracted to you or not, he would be very startled and maybe not want to work with you after that .
But maybe you can go by instinct?
Sorry, I’m a bit dumbfounded myself.
CMC, yikes – that’s why I don’t Google myself! There really is no way to bring that up with him without admitting to reverse-stalking and possibly sounding crazy. Sorry for my blunt style again…
But I’m with Mila on this. Pretend the internet doesn’t exist and rely on what you see irl. Try to erase what you saw on Google from your mind, don’t let it affect your business interactions.
Hi Mila
Thanks for taking the time to write. My story is a long one and might’ve come up before you came along. I have had endless difficulty with men who are borderline inappropriate, but not inappropriate enough to address it. They’re just weird with me. Way too happy to see me. Say things that aren’t completely inappropriate but leave me wondering what on earth they meant. Often men who are married. I end up having to hide my discomfort for the sake of theirs and I’m done doing that. I refuse to validate some man’s ego because he’s not happy in his marriage (or within himself). Problem is, it then destroys the working relationship. I had to walk away from a gym I loved and find a whole new community.
The community I ended up finding is fantastic. The men are evolved enough to treat me respectfully and I’ve never had any of the coaches be even remotely weird with me.
I literally don’t care if he’s embarrassed. Why should my discomfort count for less than his? And given all the other searches I’ve just now discovered that he’s (or a full on stalker!) has done, I’m feeling pretty uneasy! I want a functional working relationship which simply will not work if the other person refuses to put their cards on the table. In this situation, I show my hand, so it just will not work if he doesn’t. If I was caught googling someone, I’d just own it! Especially if I liked them 😅 Sometimes I google people out of curiosity because I’m a nosey parker. But I wouldn’t google their age and relationship status unless I was interested in them! Thanks to men being so damned vague with me and then denying everything when I say I feel
uncomfortable, I can’t assume that 😩
But yes, also I don’t think starting a working relationship when there’s potential for attraction is a good idea. The worst thing for me would be to have to cut and run halfway through the project. I’d rather walk now before I’m invested. And then if he was single, I’d probably just approach him. Because I’m pretty open and direct like that 🤷♀️ It’s why I have low tolerance for people who aren’t. That’s my boundary. I don’t care for pretend and playing power games. If you like me, just tell me. It allows me to go into the partnership knowing where I stand and what I might have to navigate on top of the business relationship. I think I am well within my rights to want/need that when it’s my livelihood at risk. I think I know how I have to respond. I can’t just pretend I don’t know. His motives matter.
Ok I get you.
If you are determined to have that conversation with him, why not say what you wrote to me? It sounds clear and relatable to me. Maybe explain your bad experiences without putting blame on him (because he hasn’t yet proven to be one of the inappropriate ones. I google a lot too, maybe not relationship status, but why not age? Sometimes just out of boredom and procrastination.)
I wish you all the best luck!
Thanks, Mila! I think I have to for my own sanity. Uncertainty and me aren’t the best of friends! 💜
Hi Call me Cordelia,
Firstly very educational on google search, so thank you. I’m going to take that on board for future reference. Googling myself to start with has is insightful ! I wouldn’t ride on that too much though as Mila says.
I guess you have to go with your gut instinct for the meeting tomorrow. you probably have good instincts from all your experiences.
Can you delay the decision on the business commitment for a bit to get to know this person better and establish if they would be right for work venture or even potential relationship ?
If you get on well and there is attraction then you may instinctively know the business thing could be dangerous and you may choose to put your cards out there, maybe not show your full hand, and see if he reciprocates.
I hope it goes well. Let us know. It’s quite exciting !
CMC,
What makes you feel so strongly that is is him Googling you, as opposed to say someone from your past. If you confronted him, he’d have a heck of a lot of deniability to hide behind (which may even be true deniability).
Not trying to say you’re wrong on your instinct – just curious …
„ he’d have a heck of a lot of deniability to hide behind (which may even be true deniability).“
That’s a good point .
Do you think he will really readily admit to it? There are chances you won’t get your answer at all and it will just be awkward.
Also could just be some new Google thing incorporating searches from the past 10 years or so. How would you know?
CMC, like you, I am the only person in the world with my name. You triggered curiosity in me so I googled my first and last name together. If you are correct that someone else has searched for me recently, they would have included the word “obituary” in one search and “MD” in another. I don’t think anyone is looking for my obituary and I’m not a doctor. I think the algorithm just adds whatever it thinks you might want to see.
Lovisa, your message to CmC is so factual with dark humor at the same time! I love it. 🤣
I did the same search, as my full name is also unique.
It seems no-one is adding any search terms to my name at this time.
I wish it had just one.
Even if it was Imho’s first name + last name and “still alive ?”
Now I am really creeped out. How do these google searches work? My list was
…[place where I live]
…obituary
…obituary [place where I live]
…LDS
…MD
I have no idea why someone would type those searches in for me. I feel frightened.
I’ll try my maiden name…
It’s the same searches in a different order. There are also three searches of my maiden name with my first name spelled incorrectly.
I have a relative with a really unusual name. I’ll try his…
Never mind, his name isn’t as unusual as I thought.
I’ll try my husband’s name…
Ahhhhhhhh here are the results
…neo
…[place where I live]
…wife
…net worth
I feel very creeped out. How do these searches work?
What does “neo” mean?
I searched all my kids and they had similar results including “obituary, place where we live, and LDS,”but they also had
…books
…age
…instagram
And my son’s female name that he doesn’t use anymore had
…marriage
My mom has a somewhat unusual name. Nothing came up when I searched her.
What is going on here?
I’ll try my in-laws’ names.
Similar results for my mother-in-law but her’s included
…husband
Just knowing that my mother-in-law had a similar result to mine is very comforting. I’m going to walk away from this.
CMC, you might want to stop googling yourself. Whatever you learn, it isn’t helpful.
Now I can see why you were upset. I thought you were over reacting, but now I get it. This stuff is creepy.
I love that: “Imho + still alive?” 😀
If I could, I’d help you by googling that!
So, just to be sure I understand: if we all would google „Imho-still alive?“ a few times, it would show up in my google search when I would type just „imho“ tomorrow? I can’t believe that somehow! Or would it be on the google page of the same country?
My name is quite unusual and no one seems to google me😂..
CmC,
I‘m glad the meeting put your mind at rest!
Trifles, Mila,
Maybe we can invent a unique name of a fictional person and we all Google it with “still alive?” (or other search term) as an experiment, to see if it works….🤣
Imho,
I already googled „Imho still alive“ 10 times, does it show up on your search?😂
This is a great idea!! Can I suggest something slightly different?
Hope Dr Tom is OK with us using his name but it’s perfect because he’s not so famous that people would be searching him constantly, but we all know his name.
Currently when I type in Dr Tom Bellamy my search shows up no PASF options.
So if we all check that first and don’t put in any other key terms just yet, we can do a before/after check. I’d suggest something very unique because, for example, in the search bar itself the suggestion is ‘Smitten Dr Tom Bellamy’. If someone else happened to be typing fast and clicked on that, it’d influence the result. If we each think of a unique word to search and search it with Dr Tom Bellamy and report back what our PASF is saying. In my case, I believe only one person is searching for this information about me so if that’s correct, it shouldn’t matter that we all search different terms. Am I making any sense?
If it doesn’t work, this could put my mind at rest! If it does work then at least I know I need to be wary 🫤
Hi CmC,
but would we have to search only one time? Or more? And do you think it could be that it only shows on the google site of my country?
It could be a slow process, but maybe try just once to start with? My suspicion is that one person searched me just once. I could also ask friends here to search my name.
If you google exactly ‘Dr Tom Bellamy’ does it give you PASF options? I might do a search for Dr Tom that is really obviously me. If you see it, you’ll know it’s me…
CmC,
I searched ‘Dr Tom Bellamy’ only and there were no PASF returns for me.
I await further instructions from you.
Mila,
I searched ‘imho’ and there are lots of PASF listings. But not ‘still alive’ 😄
They are not surprising ‘IMHO in a sentence’ , ‘IMHO meaning from a girl’ etc
‘IMHO Drag’ is a funny one !!
I think you would have to search it a lot of times to make the list or maybe it will only show in the list if lots of different people make the same search.
It could be that only one person doing the same search term will not show, even if you do it a thousand times ( ???)
When I google Dr Tom Bellamy, it shows „smitten dr tom bellamy“, nothing else.
Honestly, I also don’t think the google search of one person once can influence google search?
Or should I go to google.uk?
PASF isn’t that straightforward according to Google. It’s there to help your refine your search. So if you click on a search result and then navigate straight back to the results page, that’s when it assumes you haven’t found what you’re looking for. Honestly it makes no sense to me that that would then trigger a PASF because the terms you used obviously didn’t help you find what you were looking for.
So I just searched
+ UK
+ Teika
+ Teika Bellamy
And went in clicked on something and went straight back out again. Did any of those come up either as a search bar suggestion or a PASF for you now?
You are so sweet to help me out with this 🥰
Here is what I got when I typed in “Tom Bellamy”
neuroscientist
Musician
delta dental
rides
smitten
Kim Bailey
injury
emma lavelle
social chain
I am in the US. Maybe google is different here.
CmC,
It still just shows „smitten“. I tried to search on the google uk site, but it also shows search terms in my language, I would probably need to change settings…maybe people from the same country should try this experiment?
I tried it with ‘Dr Tom Bellamy’ – didn’t get anything under PASF but do get suggested additions in the search bar. These were, in order, ‘Smitten’, ‘Cardiologist’ and ‘Nottingham’.
Nothing linked to the searches you did, CMC. Same yesterday and today my time (morning now).
Mila might well be onto something with the geographical location of the search coming into it.
In the past I tried to do some digging into how Google’s algorithm worked and it is a thing of great mystery. Our own personal search history is also a big factor in what is suggested to us – which I think can be got around by using Incognito mode. I am not sure how to crack this puzzle!
Aww thank you all for trying!
I really appreciate that 🥰
Even when I search, there’s no PASF for me coming up either.
I asked a friend to google me with a different key word and it also didn’t end up in the PASF. I know it’s not based on my personal search history because even when I’m nosy, I don’t look for partners or ages or salary or net worth!
I usually just want to know that they’re still alive and well even if we don’t keep in touch.
I’m actually fine with it now. If it was just some nosy person they wouldn’t have found the information anyway. And if it was the guy I might work with, he is being professional and that’s all that matters ☺️
You are welcome CMC.
Google remains a mystery.
I searched the Drs name and ‘science person’ so many times that Google thought I was a Bot and asked me to confirm I was a human being !
PASF still nil ( same as LaR) .
It was an interesting experiment.
I hope all this allays your concerns. Wishing you well with your business venture.
But if you do end up falling in love with him though, let us know.
Sorry, I couldn’t help myself to say that ! 😉
Bahaha IMHO that’s hilarious 😂 sounds like you almost broke the internet! I suppose that’s one way to get Dr L’s name out there 🤷♀️ Your search definitely didn’t affect my results here in Australia. I love that we were trying to hack the system. I did try reading a webpage describing how Google’s algorithms have changed and what is different with each iteration. It didn’t make a whole lots of sense to me though 🫤
And yes, hahaha if he turns out to be part-unicorn, I’ll let you know 🦄
Thanks everyone. I’m glad I asked!
@Lovisa your answer is super interesting to me, but I do think someone has searched those terms for you. Has someone in your family passed recently?
I once googled a colleague and ‘obituary’ because her husband died and I didn’t know his name. Do you know anyone else with a completely unique name? What comes up if you search them? I just tried with several people and nothing like that comes up.
I still search LO sometimes. Nosey Parker 🙋🏼♀️ He also has a totally unique name. It’s never come up with PASF suggestions. Pretty sure if it’s suggesting what I ‘want to see’ there’d be more there! Besides, Google actually says that the PASF is drawn from real life users doing real life searches. I’m sure there’s a healthy level of distrust out there, and maybe bots are responsible for some of it. But I rarely use my real name for anything unless it’s official. Nobody from my past would google those things because they know how old I am.
When it comes to my family members, someone has searched for all my male relatives with my name and partner or age or photos. Again, nobody from my past would suspect my cousin or uncle was my partner! But nothing like that comes up with my female relatives. And it doesn’t even search my male relatives with their own wives! It’s too odd to be nothing. It’s like he’s trying to figure out if one of them is my husband. I never married so haha you’ll not find out that way! 😅
@trifles (or whoever said I sound crazy for ‘reverse stalking’??) I google myself regularly to ensure no photos or other personal details of me and my child appear online with our names. It has happened and I’ve had to ask people and companies to take them down. It’s got nothing to do with stalking. It’s for my own safety. I completely disagree that I should ignore the search terms. I have no idea who this guy is. His name is completely generic and he seems to have no social media. I can’t know anything about him. And as I said, the motive behind the search is extremely relevant to my safety in this business relationship.
I wasn’t going to straight up accuse 😅 I was going to lay my cards on the table and say that I could only think of a few reasons someone would do that search and I had no way of knowing who had done it, but I’d hope that whoever did it had honest intentions and if it’s one of the handful of people I’m considering going into business with (there’s nobody else but it’ll give him an out), they probably need to be upfront with me about that because it could blow my life up if they aren’t. I was going to give a brief description of how I’ve had to walk away in the past and why. He really wants this partnership. He has told me as much already. There are plenty of other people I could work with. But I did like him when we met. He’s a CEO, he should’ve read his Brene Brown. He should know that uncomfortable conversations need to be had for a successful marriage or business!
I’ll tread lightly today. But I can’t sign on until I’ve put it out there somehow. It’s too important a partnership to go in blind. This is why I’ve chosen to only work with women for the last two years OR I’ve gone in explaining my boundaries like I did at the new gym. Unfortunately in this case, if he was interested, I might actually be interested as well (which is just so rare!) and the boundaries wouldn’t be the same. Hence the dilemma 🤔😩 Bottom line, if he’s my kind of person (business or romantic), he’ll own his shit.
And finally, I’m not interested in working with someone who hides behind deniability. I’m pretty good at observing faces and responses and spotting guilty defensiveness. If I’m in any doubt, I’d far rather walk away. I also won’t be asking for an answer. I’ll just be saying that after I leave the meeting, he might want to send me an email saying we’re not a good fit if there’s any chance things might go south.
CMC, Just to clarify: I didn’t say I thought you were crazy or that you were reverse stalking. I said there was no way of bringing that up without it sounding like that – to someone who doesn’t really know you from Adam. I tried to imagine myself saying it, in the most roundabout, diplomatic of ways …And no. I’m glad to hear you didn’t. (And sorry again for the bluntness, I sometimes feel strongly about discouraging people from doing things – and I write fast. I really AM more diplomatic irl…)
However, I think it’s still important to go with your instinct based on interactions where you know for sure it’s him you’re interacting with.
As for Google searches, whenever I search a well-known person, Google always suggests I should search for their net worth or spouse. Why would I care?? People are just really nosy, is all I can say.
You lot (CMC, Lovisa, Imho) with all your one of a kind, unique names. I’m jealous!!
Glad the interaction went well today CMC – sounds promising!
Maybe you can change your name to Lim-a-rant in real life.
That would be pretty unique !
Imagine if we all went by our LwL handles IRL!
Might get me some strange looks😂
Haha yes I think Lim A Rant would be a great name! Better than Princess Consuela Banana Hammock (if you never watched Friends that won’t make sense).
Would change my name in a heartbeat. I have no attachment to it whatsoever.
I didn’t straight up say I’m single but it was very much implied by what I was saying. He continued to behave professionally. It should, at the minimum, be a good working relationship ☺️
@lovisa!
Interesting!!!
I also got ‘net worth’ and ‘salary’ in the searches with my cousins. I wonder if the first search terms that come up are the real ones but the further you go, the more Google is just suggesting…?
Anyway, I’ll be super cautious today. I figure if I let him know I’m single, he’ll either behave badly or he’ll remain respectful. That will give me an answer.
Thanks everyone! I’m heading into the meeting now 🤞🤞🤞
@Lovisa
Yes I felt like someone was going way too far to find out information about me. It’s odd that it only comes up with PASF for some people though, right? Even within my own family. The ‘net worth’ and ‘salary’ one was just too creepy to imagine.
I actually feel good after the meeting though. I think I am still traumatized by what happened with my coach and it’s just made me so wary. One thing I can see pretty clearly though, is when a man is respectful towards me. So even if he did the google search for partner and age, I highly doubt he’d ever be inappropriate. And I highly doubt he did all the extra creeping He just doesn’t have that vibe at all. I had only met him once and then the whole Google thing happened and I had a week to think about it and get freaked out. So I’m really glad I’d organised a meeting for today because seeing him in person put my mind at rest!
Thanks everyone 🙏
Call me Cordelia, I’m glad that you feel better after your meeting. I hope your relationship (whether business or personal) with this new man goes well. I was very freaked out by the Google searches so I walked away from it. I did a short run on my treadmill and made an icecream cake for my daughter’s birthday. It helped me not to think about it.
Last night, I lay in bed feeling safe next to my husband and I thought about how you don’t get the benefit of a strong, protective man in your house at night. It would be hard for me. I was scared, but just having my husband nearby makes everything better. I admire your strength and courage. I don’t understand it, but I definitely admire it.
@Lovisa
I moved to a small town and it’s the kind of place where everyone knows everyone. I don’t feel physically unsafe because I have a big guardian dog and I’m at a gym with a bunch of weightlifting gymbros. I’m pretty sure someone would have my back if I needed muscle 💪🏼 And I’m pretty physically strong myself anyway 😁. I’m more scared of a psychological threat and micro harassment. So much harder to address! Not sure a man would be able to help me with that!
I see so many women outlive their husbands and live alone. Does that worry you? After my grandfather passed, my grandmother lived alone from her mid-70s to mid-90s. I think she was living her best life 😅
I hope you can forget the whole Google thing. I tried to research further into how it works because it makes no sense to me that those terms would come up specifically. And just for you and me. I tried searching everyone I know with an unusual name and none of them had any PASF options. So I think I’ve reached the end of what I can find out and like you, I just need to step away and not worry unless there’s something certain to worry about!
Hi guys!
I’m relatively new to the forum part, but I have a new year win to share.
Lastly I’ve been wondering if my bout with limerence was not just my (rational) brain refusing that I could fall in love with LO and getting all anxious and jittery about it and the strength of it (because I’m in a relationship I don’t want to lose, LO too, it would be against my values to start an affair or lie to SO, + other barriers). So, step one, I tried to just accept that I fell for this person. Step 2, and this is the win, I told my So that I was attracted to LO.
I went much better than I thought it would. Telling him that of course I had no intention to leave reassured also myself and we’re much closer since (I think that not telling him was bothering me more than I thought and that he was picking something but didn’t know what anyway, which was stressing him into thinking I wanted to leave). Since then, the limerence decreased by a whole bunch and there is ups and down but it’s more like a crush now.
So of course I feel stupid, but yeaye, new year win! 😁
Welcome S. Anon! Thanks for sharing your win, that’s great.
Accepting one’s feelings towards LO is a good first step. I denied this quite a bit, before accepting this as a fact. While I accepted it, I told myself that I am not going to act on those feelings.
Disclosing to SO really worked well for you. Personally, I could not disclose to my SO, though I think she kind of knows, due to previous leakage of emotions.
Really happy for you, keep going.
Hi ABCD!
Thanks for your response 😊
I fully understand feeling not able to disclose to your SO.
Even though we communicate usually well with mine and had even talked before – although very theoretically – about letting each other see someone else if necessary, we had never been in a situation where one of us was actually smitten with someone else before and to me it felt too huge to talk about. As the situation is otherwise currently complicated and I’m asking a lot of him, I thought he might give up on me. Moreover, slight readjustment… LO is a woman.
But this was just anxiety. And I think staying in silence about it was making us less emotionally connected, which played into limerence as I was looking for emotional connection somewhere else.
I don’t know your situation so I can’t really recommend but maybe talk about it to a friend if you can’t talk to you so? So you get connection somewhere.
Also for your friend it’s radically more fun to here about than the weather or the news.
Thanks S. Anon.
I am in general feeling good about my LE, like it is not bothering me that much, barring the occasional setback. This is primarily due to NC/LC with LO.
In terms of talking it out, this forum has been a wonderful avenue for me. It has really helped me, especially during the low times.
I am working on having a greater connection with SO, and with other family. This really seems to help, and I am seeing the positive effects of this recently.
All the best.
@S. Anon,
Hi! I am curious about your limerent experience. Are you a heterosexual woman married to a man, but you had/have limerence for a woman?
This brings up an interesting piece of my history. I think I had a similar experience. When I got married, I actually got super sad/mad/hurt when one of my best friend’s became close to another friend. I knew logically she was not abandoning me for this new friend, but something inside me was devastated to the point where in hindsight it felt like a limerent withdrawal. The unusual thing is that I am 100% heterosexual, so it was never about sexual intimacy, but as best friends we shared a deep spiritual and emotional connection. It was the weirdest experience ever. My husband at the time couldn’t understand it, she couldn’t understand it, her new friend couldn’t understand it, and I definitely didn’t understand it. My ex-husband said I was grieving, and he was right — but I couldn’t place why.
Thankfully, 15 years later, we are still best friends and she forgave me for my weird behavior. But it was the only time I felt I had a sort of limerent experience for a female. It also took about a year or two to fully get over the anxiety, depression and anger that I felt when she found this new friend.
I guess I would call it “friend limerence” if that could be a thing: the euphoric feeling when you live with a best friend and have all the great experiences of a “soulmate” in a platonic friend, and then the withdrawal and anxiety and jealousy when she finds a new friend that made me feel replaced.
In this case and in hindsight, I used low contact until my feelings resolved and I was back to baseline normal again. I didn’t have to go no contact because it was a platonic friendship and was never at risk of being anything more for either party.
💙
Hi Limerent nurse!
Yes, my long time partner is a man, but LO is female. Before this I would have said I’m 100% heterosexual but I realize I’m likely bi. And I definitely concur on this being the weirdest experience ever 😅.
I can’t get into to much detail but she’s a person of authority in something I’m doing. I’ve known her for quite a while but we were not close. At some point, I thought “huh, maybe I have kinda have crush on her. Fun”. I thought it was harmless and would pass.
Then there was an exchange of glances that was definitely the glimmer for me and I started getting obsessed.
I started doing *a lot* more things on her subject- which, incidentally, I also adore- so we started to interact much more. Yet it seems there was never any way to be friends: we communicate very differently, I’m/was hopelessly weird and at this point I suspect she is much weirder than her usual self, so we spent quite a lot of time pushing each other away, with occasional “I really like you” glances.
During all that time I was searching high and low why I was that obsessed, since there was not really much sexual component in my attraction. I mean I thought she was gorgeous, and I got weird enough when she touches me that she probably thought it was a problem for me and completely stopped while she’s usually quite touchy. But none of the kind of sexy dreams I have with guys.
It took me a while to realize that its just that it looks like falling in love when I was 10. Which kind of make sense. I never really wondered whether I was attracted to girls when I was younger because I was always in love with a guy (from afar most of the time, thanks to limerence weirdness). I’ve no close exemple, nor did I get much from tv shows and movies when I was young, so not really any stories to relate to (and I definitely could/can get obsessed about tv shows too). My brain kind of didn’t know where to go or what to do with this and tried a ton of other possibilities. Why get that weird about wanting to be friend with someone, since what I wanted was really mostly platonic?
Then a relationship popped up in a tv show, and I started looking for stories, and more, and bit by bit I realized women also interest me, even if not exactly like guys 🤷.
Now that I stopped denying that I’m attracted to her, it’s much more manageable. But before that I could catch myself checking her out and still not get that I liked girls too🤦♀️
Anyway I can safely say limerence taught me something about myself this time 🤣
Anyway, it’s mainly about emotional intimacy for me too and a few month ago I would have jumped on the “limerence for a friend” wagon. Now… Not so much 😅. And as for other LE I’m not sure I can one day actually be friends with her, although I would have loved to have something like what you have/had with your friend. Also, I get more jealous of an other woman that she got close to in the meantime than of her SO (a guy) ! Feelings are weird.
Ooh, this touches on another of my favorite topics: hormones. Sexuality is a spectrum. Now I know many (many!) guys who would never sign off on that but perhaps women are more fluid. (Also conservative Christians might deny it.) I’ve only had heterosexual relationships in my life. But a few years ago I had a crush on a woman. It surprised me. Then a few months later I locked eyes with an attractive older woman on the street and thought “wow!”. I realized afterwards that she’s a local celebrity and lesbian. So I would say I’m about 85% straight.
Also, I hear these stories about how a woman left their husband and is now with a woman. Often these women are middle-aged. My friends say: “Oh, how embarrassing for him. He turned her on to women!” But it’s not like that. I think hormones are so much to blame for who we are attracted to. Isn’t that how Dr L theorizes limerence as well? And nearing midlife, women go through a lot of hormonal changes. I’m not surprised that those hormones might tweak our position on the spectrum and make us become attracted to other kinds of people, even another sex than normally! So I wouldn’t be worried about that. And it doesn’t sound like you are either, S.Anon.
I’m not surprised at all that you are more jealous of other women than her LO. That holds with people’s experiences of limerence. I suppose I would say: enjoy getting to know yourself and your sexuality better!
…than her SO, I mean.
Trifles
“Now I know many (many!) guys who would never sign off on that but perhaps women are more fluid.”
That is a lot societal expectations, the discrimination of homosexual men more than women. Hell, heterosexual men like homosexual women. And as you mentioned religion.
But that’s an aside to what your post made me think of it, that I just got reminded of previously this morning and posted it elsewhere on the internet.
Back when my wife and I got together I met her childhood friend who is a homosexual man. Him and I were talking about women while drinking beers. I remember I mentioned some female celebrity (I don’t remember who) and he goes “yeah I agree she’s beautiful”. To which I gave him a perplexed look to which he quips back “sorry us gay men don’t have the same hang ups you straight guys do” Remembering that as 40 something me over 20 something me; I find it hilarious. He was spot on.
Oh yeah, I’m not particularly worried about also being interested in women, nor about whether it would fly well with my friends and family (they’re not overly religious and very open, it would).
I am, however, very annoyed about being 10 again 😅. And about taking so long to realize it. I think without something as strong as a LE it would have gone under my radar.
And yes I’m middle age too! Hormones, maybe, but starting to wonder about yourself beside the stories you grew up with play a big part too I think.
Adam,
So you’re telling me straight men wouldn’t admit that some male celebrities are hunks? You wouldn’t agree with a woman when she says she thinks George Clooney is still pretty handsome?
Now that’s pretty restricted… 😜
I don’t particularly have an issue with it. But there are a lot of heterosexual men that have problems voicing such an opinion. Mostly due to (and probably more so for my generation and older) the ridicule they may get. Bisexuality among men translates to fine to women but not to men. Hopefully the younger generations have matured in that area.
Though it’s not George Clooney for me, it’s Idris Elba. That accent, charismatic, well dressed and carries himself like a gentleman; those are things that stands out to me in whether a man is attractive or not.
Or if you ask Momma she likes to tease me I have a man crush on Jason Statham. Well I am sorry he makes consistently good movies lol
Haha, what is it with straight men and Jason Statham & his movies? You are literally the fourth man I’ve heard say that! 😂
And mmm… Idris Elba, you have good taste.
I don’t have a problem with acknowledging some men are handsome. My wife and I have different opinions on that. She can’t understand why I find some women attractive, Madeline Stowe, for example. My wife knows about my affinity for redheads so we avoid those, except for maybe Tina Louise and Ann-Margret.
Madeline Stowe reminds me of a girl that I knew in college but never dated. I also have a thing for certain brunettes, Catherine Zeta-Jones, Lynda Carter, and Elizabeth Hurley.
There was a guy in college who looked like JFK, Jr. Women just threw themselves at him. He was one of the nicest guys I’ve ever met. With his looks, he could have easily been an arrogant a–hole but he wasn’t. If anything, he didn’t know what he had. The guy could give lessons in “Handsome.”
We’d be sitting in the cafeteria and some babe would come over and start chatting him up. He was genuinely clueless. I’m sitting there thinking, “AHHHHHHH! You idiot! Give me 25% of what you have and I” clean up.”
There’s a common belief that you can do pretty well for yourself as a “wingman.” I played wingman several times and never found that to be true although I did have a delightful chat with a woman who was playing wingman to her friend who was with my friend. We compared notes on them and agreed that they wouldn’t make it through the evening. They didn’t.
Mmmm…Idris Elba 😉
I don’t watch a lot of James Bond movies (though I have watched them), but I would if he were the title role. 🙂
Hello Anna:
“Sometimes my therapist words do get absorbed into my brain lol”.
“The more you try to fight to get LO out of your mind, the longer they will stay”
Another great piece of advice!
“Acceptance really does work, it’s hard to do at first but just keep at it”.
Yes, I am feeling it working, though as you said, it takes its own time. The key is tenacity while dealing with it.
“I hope in the near future you can chop that LE tail in half!”
Thanks, appreciate it!
In the still of the night I had a few thoughts related to relationships. I’ve been wrestling with a couple of ‘handicaps’ lately.
Sunk cost fallacy. It came to mind when reading MJ’s comment about ‘wasting’ (my word, not his) a year trying to build the foundation for a relationship with LF. When we put effort into a new relationship, we build a connection that no one else can easily replace. And because we are emotionally invested, we absolutely have no urge to find a replacement! Even if it would be the best thing for us to do, due to various reasons. So I definitely feel MJ there!
This fallacy of course also comes to play when someone should leave a bad marriage, but there is just too much hanging in the balance (kids, finances, house, common friends, etc).
Wanting/needing to get everything from one person. I talked here about needing a break from my intense contact with TO. I tried to find a good time for the break but I realised I’m going through some issues where he’s the easiest person to talk to about them. So I haven’t found a suitable time! I realised that I’m the type of person (introvert) who likes to get everything from one person: emotional support, laughs, flirting, discussing current topics, etc… It’s like the one best friend we (girls at least) had in childhood. Diversifying would be the solution, but easier said than done!
Do these resonate with anyone else?
Hi Trifles,
I think diversifying it can’t just happen overnight, particularly for us introverts. We have talked before about ‘our people’ and how hard they are to find.
I think it depends how much – at a really visceral level – you *get* that you’re not (for now at least, and likely ever) going to have a full relationship with TO – and how much you are OK with that. If you are OK with those things, then, as said several times before, there seems no harm in getting most of those other needs that you listed met by him *for now*. If there is really to be a “this is not and will not be a relationship” acceptance, then correct course away from anything in the texts (on either side) that veers closer to that, but otherwise it sounds OK. I think you’re generally mutually helpful to the other.
My concern for you if you rely on him too much is what if he decides to pull the plug and ‘diversify’ himself – that could be quite upsetting and difficult to deal with? I’m going to contradict what I said in my last replies to you now, but (with that last point in mind)… I probably think that a sudden withdrawal without that much ‘backup’ to get your needs met might not be the best way to go. More, start to try and slowly diversify and arrange your other chess pieces, while maybe pulling back more gently from TO at the same time. Does that sort of make sense? You would have to be very “mind over matter” with yourself as you do this – as it seems the occasional frustration for you is that he can use you like a pseudo-relationship but one which has no progression point. But you also like a bit of that intrigue sometimes. And his presence stops you diversifying, perhaps? How to do both at once?? Ah this is a tricky one, isn’t it?
Sorry if that’s more questions than answers 😂
Thank you LaR! I can always rely on you for a not just timely, but also wise, reply! ☺️ What you say makes a lot of sense.
You are on point with your assessment of the ‘pseudo-relationship’. But actually one thing that you said is not really a concern for me.
“My concern for you if you rely on him too much is what if he decides to pull the plug and ‘diversify’ himself…”
It was a concern at first (I was trying to be smart and stay one step ahead of myself!) but he reassured me that he is not going to suddenly go anywhere. And everything he has said and done since then supports that. (Although, I might even be fine with him ‘diversifying’.)
I am the bigger risk in that regard, but I will try not to do anything sudden. … Except the break that I discussed with him (still theoretical 😅).
However, I totally get your point that if I suddenly want a break and don’t have anyone else to rely on during that break – then the break could be counter-productive. I would probably miss him a lot and at worst it could even push me into limerence! 😯
Trifles, thanks 😊
So then my question(s) for you, that should help decide it, would be:
– If you went for the break, would/could you force yourself to diversify how your needs are met, in a way that you wouldn’t while he was still around?
– Whatever is your answer to the above, on balance would that likely end up feeling better for you than the current situation with him around?
Those are rhetorical and no need to answer if you don’t want to.
From what you said earlier, I’d gradually set up some other ‘infrastructure’ around you before pulling any plug, and work towards a slower fade, if you do decide to go for it.
I could well mirror my questions back on myself, as I know how much I rely on MFF to get several needs met (possibly to a point that becomes too much for her at times). If I decided to be LC, (which would still be quite a lot of contact out of necessity, so this is quite hypothetical – but if I consciously lowered the emotional intensity of the contact I guess), then I think I would force myself to diversify my social circles a bit. It still wouldn’t cover all the bases, but it would be something. Perhaps it would cover the bases that she provides that are currently enriching or productive for me, and remove the ones that aren’t (I am assuming no other LO would become involved!). But can I force myself to think it would actually feel better than the status quo? I’d have to strain, and there would be pain to get through before the gain (here endeth poetic rhyming sentence).
Your circumstances are very different to mine, so it is just some stuff to think through.
Thank you for the excellent questions! I will have to really think about them. You’re right, it would be a strain for me as well to try to set up that network. It would take some time also.
I’ve been pretty active lately at keeping in touch with friends, but people are just really busy. I couldn’t really get that amount of time and attention elsewhere! I do sometimes suspect that one needs to have at least a little ‘spark’ in order to get it.
@Trifles,
Saw your post from above..
“When we put effort into a new relationship, we build a connection that no one else can easily replace. And because we are emotionally invested, we absolutely have no urge to find a replacement! Even if it would be the best thing for us to do, due to various reasons.
Many replies I got relating to my situation were very wise. Although it doesn’t ever erase what I know was and is a solid friendship, which leads to the emotional investment. So I totally get you here.
In your situation, you mention that he is a very easy person to talk with and that when in the right timing, the vibe between you two is very good. You’re totally right that that’s not something that can be easily replaced by just anybody. There has to be that spark and it’s magic when all the right elements are there. I get this..
It’s probably like in my situation with LF, there have been times we talk, where it feels like I’ve known her for years. Infact I’ve even given her a cute little nickname, “Old Friend” because it personally feels like she is that way to me, and I am hopeful by calling her that helps her to feel like I’m trying to be a stable person she can rely and put her trust in. I have nothing but good intent on this person.
“I realised that I’m the type of person (introvert) who likes to get everything from one person: emotional support, laughs, flirting, discussing current topics, etc…”
Yes!! This is me!! Totally me!! I am so the person that suffers from “One-Itus..”
I just pulled off something incredible after almost 2 full weeks of intense LC with LF. I’ll probably have to post another update on the weekend, as it is quite the surprise. But just what I needed to set the record straight.
Sometimes getting a break is what we need as a way to reset things. This has been especially true for me with LF because sometimes the constant contact drives me crazy with desire. Since I wear my heart on my sleeve, (so bad I know) I have a tendency to leak emotions like crazy.
Don’t discount anything LaR mentions either as his advice holds solid I think. Yes his situation is different, but pulling back and allowing a re-focus I think can be good for both parties.
I don’t know if this is any more helpful to you but I thought I would just chime in here with a nugget, that seems to have worked well for me.
Thanks MJ, I appreciate the ‘nuggets’!
“Sometimes getting a break is what we need as a way to reset things.”
That does make sense to me, and kind of what I would be aiming for.
Now I’m pretty intrigued to hear the incredible feat you pulled off..!!
@Trifles,
You’re welcome..
I don’t know if I would call it incredible, but I can definitely say holding my ground on LC definitely helped put matters into perspective..
I’ll try to update on the weekend sometime..
Trifles
‘I realised that I’m the type of person (introvert) who likes to get everything from one person’
I get this.
I have so many stakeholders at work it’s overwhelming and getting worse. I realise many are very outgoing and big personalities. It’s no wonder Im exhausted.
Maybe that is why I attached to LO, for the reasons you describe. A kind of one centred safe haven with a spark !
Dr L’s survey indicated an even split of introverts versus extroverts for limerence ( which I was a bit surprised by).
Yet I think a lot of us regular lwl posters are introverts.
Does anyone in the LwL community identify as extrovert (or is it extravert)
??
Be nice to know (without going too deep into Myers Briggs stuff)
Imho,
„I have so many stakeholders at work it’s overwhelming and getting worse. I realise many are very outgoing and big personalities. It’s no wonder Im exhausted.
Maybe that is why I attached to LO, for the reasons you describe. A kind of one centred safe haven with a spark !“
Same here, that’s exactly the reason for my connection to introvert XLO!
I‘m introvert too but learned to be extrovert to a certain extent, and I enjoy it because I always felt too shy, too calm etc in my adolescence and even later until middle of twenties. But my core is still introvert and XLO was my safe person at work, the reason why I panicked and got limerent when he left.
Thanks for clarifying that to me- I knew it basically, but I didn’t connect it so much with being both introverts in leading positions where usually extroverts dominate.
It’s very interesting at the moment because the man who might take over his vacant position and who glimmered last time is here this week, and I struggle a bit because I see that he glimmers because he is quite similar to XLO, and I get pulled towards him for that reason. He‘s got the same calm efficiency and attention.
He‘s much younger though, and I don’t want to make the mistake to assume that because he resembles XLO in work and also the whole way of speaking and being (another neurodivergent!), he must therefore own all qualities of XLO. Maybe he has only the weaknesses?
I think I feel the pull towards him because subconsciously I seek for another safe person at work and he seems to qualify- but I’m scared that I’m not judging clearly because I would wish for it so much.
To add to the confusion, yesterday night I dreamed of XLO, physical intimacy (but more like cuddling), and this night very similar dream with the new guy.
But I’m already shaking my head at myself and keep my hands still. I think I will just wait and see concerning the job position and also listen to other colleagues how they perceive him, and privately try to keep more distance.
Also, I just bought the book „Quiet“ by Susan Cain on a whim (together with the Vonneguts), have you read that? Haven’t started neither that or Vonnegut because I need to finish another one first, but the subject of being introvert at the core seems to have been somewhere in my brain and made me add it to my cart.
Imho, Trifles, Mila (and everyone)
I’m introvert and all my four major LOs in my life have been extroverts.
DrL wrote once about why introverts are more likely to get limerent. The gist was that extroverts are used to making lots of effort talking with lots of people, as it comes naturally to them. For the introvert it is rarer that someone comes along who we consider is worth using up our lesser (in quantity) ‘social battery’ on. So the glimmer for a would-be LO is a more stark and out of the ordinary event for the introvert. I simplify but “lights suddently go on very bright when often there are no lights”.
Extroverts might not get limerent as much because (and I generalise again) they have more social choices and often just hop along to the next thing that interests them.
I can honestly watch my (extrovert) LO ‘work a room’ and it is a thing of utter mystery and envy for me. I think introverts get limerent for extroverts because they like this quality in them. The extrovert can help bring the introvert out of themselves and feel more confident in an environment. The introvert can respond be reining in some of the extrovert’s worst excesses and bad ideas – and also be a secure ‘home base’.
You said don’t get into Myers Briggs so I’ll try to respect that, but briefly – when I looked at compatibility on mine and LOs MBTI profiles, they are very compatible almost for those very reasons (as long as you have other bits of the profile in common).
Mila,
“But my core is still introvert and XLO was my safe person at work, the reason why I panicked and got limerent when he left.”
Can I say, that’s one of the clearest statements I think you have ever made about your LE, and captures a lot. Find something in that statement to bottle and grab onto if you do still want to make the friendship work.
It resonates so hard with me, as I know I am that safe person for my LO. I am crystal clear on that – even though she is extrovert and not limerent back, that is almost definitely the status I occupy for her.
Hi LaR,
yes, Imho‘s remark made me recognize it more clearly!
I‘m much more at peace with that friendship now and reach out from time to time. I think we will manage in the future.
I think there are equal reasons why an introvert might be attracted by extroverts and introverts alike. This LO was an introvert, thus my safe person and kindred soul, the last one an absolute extrovert, an example of opposites attract, he loved that I made him calm down and feel safe,and I loved his fun quicksilver personality. I‘m not sure one can say introverts get more attracted to extroverts than to introverts.
Actually, although being an inner introvert, I’m socially quite involved, in my case it cannot be a case of a bright light because there are no other lights, I guess.
Maybe it‘s an inner urge of introverts to find a „safe“ person , be it an introvert or extrovert? Both types can feel safe, in my experience.
@Imho,
I think Limerent Emeritus is an extrovert.
I don’t think my LOs were extroverts. Well, I thought LO2 was, but he claimed to be an introvert. It’s about what we show others of ourselves, I suppose. Many learn to “extrovert” for work, just like I have. What they had was a not-too showy confidence, the kind that annoyingly handsome men can annoyingly have. Perhaps that confidence was what I wanted to emulate from them. Although honestly, I don’t really think I wanted to emulate anything, I had other things on my mind. 😉
Otherwise I’m pretty much drawn to introverts. I’ve dated extroverts but at some point they start to exhaust and/or annoy me. 😜 TO (an extrovert) most likely would too.
LaR, L.E., the exception that proves the rule! 😉
Oops, that was Limerent Nurse who mentioned L.E., not LaR!
LO was an extrovert. The kind of upbeat and bubbly extrovert. The kind that usually annoy me. At least in men more so than women. Like Trifles I can exude extroversion when I need to socially or secularly so some might think I am an extrovert. I have just learned to set aside my aversion to it and play the part.
LO had a way of bringing that out in me naturally. At first it was quite awkward and unnatural. But eventually it felt more a part of expressing myself and less me putting myself on display.
She’d hear me out in the warehouse singing while I was listening to music doing work and I’d see her and stop singing. “You don’t have to stop Adam I want to hear the rest of the song.” And ended up “preforming” the second half of Matthew Fisher’s “Why’d I Have To Fall In Love With You” and I got an applause. She’s the only one besides Momma I have sang in front of.
I get what Trifles said about the annoying showy extroverts. My boss is one of them. But LO had a “quiet” confident extroversion that was very calming but at the same time exciting. And she tried to help me find that in myself. I always like finding extroverts in relationships of any kind. I find that they help me balance my normal pulled away “leave me alone” introversion. That left unchecked would develop into a “shut in” mentality.
LN,
I test as an ESTJ but I think I’m really an ENTJ.
I’ve taken the test twice, professionally administered by my job. That partially explains the S/N difference. My childhood can explain the rest.
In a professionally given test, you’re given a score. My tests were given over 10 years apart. I still have the scores.
E – 13/13
S – 27/22
T – 37/24
J – 45/19
Based on those numbers, I can drift into ISTJ and ISTP territory. I just don’t usually seem to.
I worked in a place that was mostly engineers. 90% of them were ISTJs. One guy had scores over 40 across the board.
Another guy had no score above 15. He was Vietnamese. We called him The Chameleon.
Interesting – SO is an extrovert, I am introverted, and I think that is why our relationship works. I have had two other shorter relationships/liasons with extroverts – as long as they weren’t too extrovert it worked really well in a complimentary way, although not in the way adam describes. For me it removes all that pressure I feel to be louder or more bubbly. SO has said that one of the things she often misses in me is that I am not as bubbly as her, but the contrast is that I am her rock and safe place.
Limerence has always been for introverts, and the one relationship where the end really hurt and kind of the point after which limerence became a problem (not for her) was with someone very introverted. In fact all LEs have been for someone who resembled her in some form, although I dont think it is about her.
So i’d say that it is hard to make a generalization.
I’ve been reading a bit of Jung recently inspired by Teikas guest post, and probably am getting it cack-handed wrong, but I think he is basically saying we project a lot of what we feel we lack or have to date failed to unify in our psyche (i.e. between our ego and our shadow) onto members of the opposite sex in our relationships (romantic or not). I don’t quite know how to interpret that right now, but I can see that in successful relationships that has been the case, and maybe the LOs similarity represent another aspect I havent quite grasped yet.
HJ,
Have you read https://livingwithlimerence.com/how-common-is-limerence/
The chart seems to show it’s more of an N thing than I vs E.
Ooo lots of interesting posts today !
Seems L.Emeritus is our lone E-type, like the classic Jaguar car !
LaR,
Im not against Myers Briggs as such. It was a complete lightbulb moment when I got my result and I saw a funny yet accurate video of ‘a day in the life of an INFP’ and it was completely me !
I do not know what my LOs profile is. I suggested he ran the test but if he did it, he didn’t share. I’m pretty sure he is a confident and competent introvert and also a Sensor. you could probably help me figure out the other 2 letters
I’ve tried not to work it out too much in case we are some perfect match (as seems you are with your LO).
Mila,
I’m glad my comment resonated and helped you as well as me. It was triggered by a Trifles comment. it’s nice LwL sometimes creates this helpful ripple effect.
Everything you followed up with also fits exactly for me too, in terms of becoming more extrovert as I’ve gotten older. I’ve successfully done this until post-COVID and then again more recently, when I start feeling overwhelm and withdrawing. withdrawal and some introspection feeds limerence thoughts.
My LO told me to get out there more as he senses I lack some confidence and drive actually!
The irony of it all !
Let us know outcome of who will be the new hire and fingers crossed for limited shininess.
Also do keep us updated on the books. I’m interested to know if they worth a read.
I bought one of Bewitcheds book recommendations as a gift for a friend actually, which was well received.
Limerent emeritus, yes definitely, have read it, and as a (semi) statistician by Training it is 100% an N thing, without even reading the data… i was more referring to the contrast i need/ have had for a proper relationship to function well, as opposed to the pseudo attachment of limerence.
@Imho,
If you do want to work MBTI out for him, you already have IS. I want to reiterate that I come at all this from a pretty amateur perspective. But:
-T or F?: (simplified version) is he more likely to say ‘I think …’ or ‘I feel …’? (Deeper version) would his instinctive decision be more based on how it affects people around him? (F) or what he genuinely thinks will produce the ‘best’ outcome (T)?
– J or P? Does he prefer to have a plan (J) or be spontaneous (P)?
There is also sometimes a fifth letter at the end – A for Assertive or T for Turbulent. Your ‘confident and competent’ about LO made me remember that and think he is A.
@L.E.
Your two sets of results are way different, what do you put that down to? What is each score “out of?”
My feeling about the test is that it is subject to massive self-reporting bias. I have done it a few times and know how to answer questions to get whatever result I want. I still don’t know for sure if I am F or T, same for P or J. Depends on my mood on the day (why the heck did I even try to tell Imho how to work these two out directly above?). How to counteract these biases and get a more authentic result?
—-
@Mila,
I think we all (definitely introverts and probably also extroverts) like to have a ‘safe person’ be that at work or in life. I agree with you that we can find that safe person in an introvert or extrovert. Which it is depends on the type of safety we are seeking.
LA,
“Your two sets of results are way different, what do you put that down to? What is each score “out of?”
Yeah, the drops in T and J surprised me, too, especially the J. I think I have some traits of an ENTP.
Why are the scores different? I have a few ideas. When I took the test the first time, I was only a few years out of the Navy and working in a Naval Shipyard. They are very technical and disciplined environments. You are trained to believe your indications and act based on objective indicators.
That kind of goes against my nature. I didn’t win the Math or Science awards in HS, I won the Social Studies award. But, I wanted to join the Navy and be on submarines. The Navy likes engineers, they’re not as keen on Political Science majors. So, I struggled through college and nuclear power training. When I got out of the Navy, I went to work as an engineer working on nuclear reactors. In that environment, I suppressed my N and developed my S.
I had to write a report to our prime contractor. I wrote “We believe the cause to be…”
When boss was reviewing it, he said, “We don’t believe anything. Belief implies faith in something intangible. We don’t work on intangibles. We ‘consider’ things.” I’ve never forgotten that and I never used “believe” again in my professional career.
Over time, I moved away from reactors and ended up in information security. It allowed me to use more of the soft skills that I was more temperamentally suited for. I think that lowered my T and J scores.
As a kid, my hypervigilance was off the charts. I was constantly on guard for the next “sh-t storm” erupting from my parents.
As I got older and my fear of abandonment decreased, I got mellower. I don’t have anything to prove anymore.
I don’t know what the scales for the MBTI are. I know it goes to over 40 but I don’t know the max. I’ve looked. The Meyers-Briggs Company who owns it keeps it secret.
Make any sense?
L.E.,
Yeah of course it makes some sense.
I have pretty high level quals in the social sciences. The answer there is always “it depends”.
How you squared all that with being an engineer is fascinating.
Evening LaR,
Thanks for helping me on the last two letters for LO. I’m still not sure . Maybe T.
I need to investigate more, but maybe I shouldn’t.
It all goes to show I probably don’t actually know him that well, but then even you aren’t sure about your own Myers letters , ha ha !!
On your messages with CmC, on disclosing feelings and true honesty, I would say it’s ultimately for you to decide what is right for everyone. If at some point you think you are being disingenuous/dishonest and it’s affecting your friendship you need to…… I’ve spent 20 minutes and sorry I don’t have the solution !
Do you think she suspects ?
I had a male friend who I knew he had feelings for me( it was obvious) but I just ignored it and carried on being friends.
We drifted over time. Maybe I was a bit mean to him and I should have stopped it, but I liked the friendship and I trusted him.
In hindsight, I really hope it was just a crush from him and I really hope it wasn’t limerence.
I have a male friend who disclosed to me about eight years ago.
After disclosing we had a long period of not seeing each other and we were still friends after and until today. We both had at SOs at that time, and he didn’t disclose in the hope of something happening, he just wanted to get it off his chest one time.
I don’t think he‘s still limerent, not for ages, but I still tread carefully in certain situations.
But I cannot say that it lessened our friendship longterm, it might even have made it stronger because it somehow it strengthened some kind of trust in each other. But of course it could be different for him, that’s just my perspective. Difficult to explain.
Imho,
Do I think she suspects? Probably, but nowhere near the extent (if anything, more likely suspects crush). It has gone on so long now that any weirdness in my behaviours triggered by the LE could well have just been normalised as my ‘tics’!
If she suspects then she is doing little to fuel it (maybe less than in past but that could just be ‘familiarity’) but also not casting me out as a friend – a combination I appreciate and the best thing that she can do by me in the circumstances. May say more sometime but need to find somewhere to ‘bury’ it! I get what feels like leakage from her side sometimes too, but not always.
I know you (or anyone) doesn’t have an answer, don’t worry. Most LWL wisdom is not to disclose in my circs. I am still on that side. CMC’s views interest me becauae she is a bit more pro-disclose (in general) but I think the various recent stories about it here have even bamboozled her!!
I am a strong backer of my instincts. At the moment I think best not to. I will sense if there is a change to the friendship that’s probably down to ‘the unsaid’ and which moves those goalposts – never happened yet.
Above all I think disclosure in my position is a selfish act that can’t ever be undone. Interesting though to hear what you had to say that your LO’s sort of disclosure might have had good effects on you. That’s positive and I feel pleased for you. Key differences I guess are that you both have SOs and the safety net of distance. Hope you continue to feel stronger 💪
LaR,
Yes our circumstances are very different.
If your LE doesn’t reduce though, a dial back may be the way. Friendship’s always evolve anyway and people drift especially if circumstances change.
Im my situation, there was a spark from the beginning, not a platonic friendship turned limerence that you (and also Mila) experienced.
For me the disclosure was more akin to acknowledging the massive elephant that was in the room stomping on our feet.
And thanks for sending 💪
Imho,
I have had bits where I did more disciplined ‘pullbacks’ (have actually entered one now where I feel more resolute and also more settled in things with SO).
But have you found with your LO that (despite different circumstances) the classic ‘dance’ starts in the event of pullbacks? One pulls away, the other dances in closer. One dances in too close, the other pulls away?? This happens both ways round for me (the constant contact is a factor). So it takes a lot discipline to sustain a pullback.
LaR,
The dance ? Oh yes. For me sometimes the gaps have been many weeks.
I do most of the messaging, and then at some point I think I should pullback. After some time he will check-in.
I now know he does not want to come across as ‘pursuing’. I think he prefers me to be the chatty one.
He is a bit passive too, which has led to a number of huge misinterpretations, which I overacted to with worry and guilt (and no doubt vented here on LwL in the past).
Now I know it was completely nothing 🤦
I’m now all for a bit more plain talking.
Imho, yep, I’m sure lots of attached LOs prefer not to instigate contact, but they see no problem with responding. Some are passive and some probably just don’t think about us all that much (doesn’t sound like that’s the case with your LO). But I wanted to think that was how it was with my xLO – to get over him.
Texting – and getting worked up about someone’s seeming passivity – really is a minefield. My xLO very rarely initiated, but he always replied to me within minutes. He was annoying that way! In fact, I remember I once didn’t get a response from him for probably a full 40 minutes – and I actually texted him “are you ok?” 🙈 I think that was a wake-up call to me for my own silliness…
Oh Trifles, Trifles! Surely not an ‘are you ok?’ text 🤣? I’m guilty of several of those in the past. Not with this LO, but I do cringe when I remember my moments of that. It is second only on my list to a text to say “I’ve emailed you!” (I associate this behaviour with my Mum, who does it as standard when she emails. It also takes her about half an hour to compose such a text!)
I‘m also guilty of „have I done or said something wrong?“ texts after a silence of one day🙈
Cringey.
LaR, I know, I know – but it was so out of character for him! It was the natural response! 😜
And that’s nice of your Mum! I’m sure if she didn’t text you, you wouldn’t notice the email for days! I know I wouldn’t…
Then again – there are a whole brigade of people out there whose modus operandi is “reply after either one minute of one year”.
Mila I don’t know if it is the same for you but I have never once sent that “Have I done something wrong?” text either expecting or getting a good result. I wonder what force in us still compels us to send it?!
Trifles,
“I remember I once didn’t get a response from him for probably a full 40 minutes – and I actually texted him “are you ok?” ”
Ha ha, you gotta laugh in hindsight, right?!
IMHO your xLO was the silly one if he immediately reacted to all your ‘treats’ of contact and didn’t give you any in return. Quite immature/selfish /arrogant. Or maybe just dull, with no conversation starters to offer.
Glad you are out of that one !
Trifles,
I forgot about a text from mum all this weekend (she is not as advanced as to use Whatsapp, God bless her, so no ‘blue ticks’ issue) and I got the concerned ‘is your phone working?’ shot across the bows this morning 😅
I send LO texts when I e-mail him, but that’s because he specifically asked me to do this. 🙂 E-mails get lost in his inbox otherwise. As for texts, I got paranoid for the longest time when he didn’t answer—heck, I still do. But when I see him in person, I know it has nothing to do with whether he wants to talk to me.
The other day, I found myself in the middle of a church leadership text conversation, where I normally don’t belong, and kept getting texts all the time. It was overwhelming until I asked LO about it and he apparently removed me. It was a little wake-up call for me of how he’s probably getting tons of texts as well as e-mails all day long. I keep telling myself it’s nothing personal!
Imho, yes, it fits well with his selfish/arrogant diagnosis! 😉
LaR, ‘is your phone working?’ Love it – I gotta start using that one! 😜
LaR,
I‘m a bit paranoid that I did/said something upsetting without noticing, and sometimes it‘s best to ask straight out…
But in the cases that I meant (XLO), I always got a genuine sorry-text back that made me feel bad and needy. So no, no good results here either.
SL,
You’re on the money about the amount they text having basically zero correlation with how much they want to talk to you. Whenever one or both parties are attached, then both ways round there is the fear factor of “not wanting to be that person in their phone”.
I’m curious about something – are you basically square with the idea of this L.E / some L.E. being there in your life, and able to ‘kind of’ enjoy it for what it is? Or is it more intrusive than that? You don’t report a high level of distress or ups and downs from it compared to others among us.
@LAR
I keep a lot to myself, especially with this forum being open to the public. There have been intense periods, highs and lows. But there have also been disclosures, so ruminating about how he feels has diminished. I told him I wanted boundaries because I didn’t want to hurt anyone. There’s also the issue of feeling like a hypocrite at church….The way things are at the moment, there is minimal interference in each other’s life. Just a fun little flirtation when we see each other at church. Trying to keep it that way.
Hi Trifles,
your post resonated with me, but I started to ruminate about it for myself and couldn’t find a helpful answer.
I get a lot of different things from SO and other things from work colleagues that are also friends, etc., but I still rely heavily on SO for many of the important things. While I think it is a good idea not to expect one person to fulfill all your needs, I still think it’s not such a bad thing to get much from one person? Does one always be cautious to diversify just in case you lose one of your persons, to always make sure you aren’t emotionally dependent on someone? I‘m not sure I‘m the type. It sounds like having to keep a lot of juggling balls in the air. Or maybe I’m just too tired this morning😂.
Hi Mila,
Yes, I realised it sounds quite calculated to say “diversify”, but that is in essence what many give as advice when someone is stuck in a LE – purposeful living and reaching out to loved ones and friends.
I don’t think it’s bad to get most of the things you need from one person, especially when it’s an SO. But I also think that when we rely on our SO for most things, the relationship can also fizzle out faster. It’s perhaps too much togetherness. It’s at least what has happened to me in the past. We need our independence, our own interests (separate from SO’s) and our own friends. That way life is more colorful and balanced.
So I wouldn’t say: diversify to shield yourself for the case where you might lose your one ‘person’, but diversify to keep your life more full and purposeful.
Also, my situation is a little different, if/when I get too many things from someone who is so far away.
Hi Trifles,
I think diversifying really makes sense, and I have been trying it in a different way.
During the yadayada of midlife-crises, LE relapse after 20 years etc. aside, what became obvious to me is that I need to broaden the numebr of people I interact with. I have been in home office for 6 years (before corona), and also moved a small distance, so suddenly I was very much alone constantly with SO and the kids, which became vey suffocating, and maybe is part of what I got form the LE relapsing, as another focus. I am also very introverted (very INTJ for what it’s worth), although I’ve learnt some ways to fake extroversion. I very deliberately reached out to old friends as you have been to re-ignite friendships, took a coworking space, and am thinking about trying out some new hobbies which arent me alone in my man cave or the woods. It has helped massively in general, and also with the LE, so I can only encourage it. No one person can understand and provide everything you need.
I wouldn’t know how to easily diversify with new friends though, and there is only so much you can revive of an old friendship, that is the hard part. But yeah maybe some new hobbies? abit lame, but you never know, right?
HJ,
As a fellow remote worker who actually mostly enjoys it, I can relate to what you’re saying. I’ve made some new friends at work lately, but I haven’t really been interested in the dating scene. At least for now.
I actually just found a new, cool hobby that fits into my schedule and has a free starter course. It’s an adults’ (over 16) course, but I have no idea if the other people will be teenagers or actual adults closer to my age. I don’t think my friends would be available for it so I’m just going to go try it out once on my own. If it’s teenagers and I feel like the odd woman out, then no harm done, I can just bow out. I will let you know how it goes!
Btw, I agree with your message to MJ, especially this part: “the risks you take with your heart are on you”. That’s how I’ve always felt, and choose to feel. I will only break my own heart, no one else is doing it.
well, good luck! You never know.
I did have another thought, volunteering, i do a small amount and it also brought me into contact with new circles my age.
Wins for 2025 – I’d say i’ve gone from a 5-6/10 on the limerent scale late last year to maybe a like 2-2.5 now. The experiment of breaking NC after so many years, while ultimately dissapointing, seems to have worked. Maybe I will describe it more at some point, but kind of want to avoid thinking about it too much at the moment as the intrusive thoughts are way, way lower, am much more present for SO and the kids at the moment and want to keep it that way.
I of course dont have the counter factual to say it would have been otherwise, but overall definitely feeling as good as have for the last 1.5 years, although also some other work reasons for this.
A bit of an aside, but I have always been terrible at keeping a diary or journalling. I tried recently, and the increasing gaps in writing over time have sort of tracked the improvements I’ve felt, so maybe a reocmmendation for people to try it and see if you can spot a trend. It is always a very pleasant surprise when i realize I haven’t written an entry for several weeks.
CMC,
This is partly in response to your post to MJ. He might want to respond to bits of it for himself, so I have started a new thread so as not to get in the way. But I’m going to venture into what I know will be shark-infested waters and try to defend a couple of things on behalf of the male of the species more generally.
“When men are disingenuous and present as one thing but then let the huge emotions they were bottling up finally ooze out, the intensity is akin to being exposed to toxic waste because I can feel their desperation.”
Admission – I do some of this with LO (do not present my true feelings). It feels like the right thing to do. It feels right because she’s a coworker and because I have an SO. To admit my feelings to her would just create a problem for us both to navigate – initially at least. I know I’ve talked to you before about this, and we concluded that maybe I am being selfish by not admitting it (however, other women here would tell me I’d be being more selfish if I did admit it).
But there are considerations here like ‘professionalism’ too. Also, I can and genuinely do offer warm friendship to her whilst trying very hard not to push at boundaries. I’d rather offer friendship and receive it in return than have nothing. And though this is what Snow nearly maimed me for saying before, LO is a very strong-willed and confident decision maker, and never does anything she’s not happy doing, meaning that her engagement level in the friendship is a conscious choice she makes, and wouldn’t do it if she didn’t deem it right – I couldn’t and don’t force it. My being attracted to her but not saying it doesn’t seem to stop it working as a friendship. I try not to ‘leak’ but know I must do at times – I have expressive eyes, so on some level, she ‘knows’ and continues to be my friend.
Take also the new guy you were discussing last week (potential Google stalker). You said you wouldn’t want to work and have a relationship with the same man, and that’s of course your choice. I don’t know if you decided yet on whether to work with him. But say you do, and he then becomes certain he has caught feelings, but also believes work and personal shouldn’t mix. Isn’t it a right and professional thing for him to suppress those feelings and not admit them, rather like I do?
I’m trying to think about MJ’s actions and why he didn’t say anything for so long. I chatted with him about LF a fair few times and I think he believed that the right thing to do was let a friendship grow organically, instead of more of a ‘pursuit’ like with his previous LO. I admit that the age differential adds a dimension, and one that I am not qualified on because my SOs and LOs across life have always been close to my own age. But her PA with the co-worker might be totally independent of anything with him, nothing to do with cause and effect.
“you don’t really value her for her. You value her for how she could make you feel about yourself.”
Aren’t both things usually true at the same time, not one or the other? If we value a person then there is a fair chance that person’s presence in our lives improves our feelings towards ourselves. And the reverse is also true. I don’t think it is “one or the other”.
OK, slaughter me now for daring to venture here 😆😆 I say all the above because like I’ve told you before, I like a spirited debate if an issue gets me fired up. None of it is meant to sound attacking and I do remember our previous chat where you told me about the big problems you had with men as a result of them not being honest about feelings. So – no need to revisit any of that unless you want to. I guess I am just trying to say that each situation is unique and has its own set of factors influencing whether a person admits their feelings or not.
Jumping in with the friendly sharks…
I agree with LaR on this one: Just like most of the things that LOs, love interests or friends do, a PA with someone else usually has absolutely nothing to do with the limerent/friend/sideline observer. I would not take that on as another thing to feel guilty about!
As a woman/human, it also rubs me the wrong way when it sounds like a someone is made out to be a “catch” or something to be won. I try to let it slide here, because much as we’d like to deny it, not everything in relationships is completely altruistic. We like to spend time with our friends because they make us feel good about ourselves. Is that horribly selfish?
Hi L-a-R
I try not to slaughter 😆 I admit I was harsh on MJ but I think I’m mostly upset because the way he is writing sounds like he wants to punish LF for not returning his feelings and I think I can understand why she did what she did. I wanted him to understand just how terrifying it can be to be on the receiving end of that kind of emotion when your whole understanding of it was a father/daughter-type bond. He said himself that she told him he had ‘dad vibes’. She could possibly have adored him like I adored my host father and the thought of that not being safe in the way she thought it was… I don’t know if men can understand how it might feel if an aunt or mother-type figure suddenly said she was in love with you, but wouldn’t you feel blindsided by that? Seriously, how would you feel? I wanted him to come at it from a different perspective and try to understand why she might have driven off and not texted him.
I don’t know how your colleague feels. I am fairly certain someone I worked with had feelings for me. All of a sudden he started blushing every time we had a meeting. He seemed to get a grip and stopped. He was/is a really really great guy. The kind of guy I probably would have wanted to be with if he wasn’t married. I honestly didn’t mind because I could see he was doing his best to contain it and be professional and we had to work together. I don’t mind if I know the other person genuinely sees who I am and they’re not just making up a fantasy about who I am because they see me as unattainable (and I knew this man did because he was never flirty or needy of my attention). He just went uncontrollably pink when he was talking to me (but was very composed talking to other women). I can’t fault him for that and I didn’t need to ‘figure out’ what he felt because he wasn’t needy of my attention and he was definitely in more discomfort than I was! Surely I’m not the only one who can tell the difference between “giving” energy and “needy” energy when you like someone? There is a massive difference for me and it matters.
When it comes to this potential new working relationship it will really depend on if he’s married or not and how he manages it. The fact that there was no flirty vibe coming from him, but there was a genuine connection, I’d say he’s the kind of person I would be OK talking to about it. When I come across someone like that, it’s easy for me to say what I think and how I feel. The last date I went on was initiated by me. He was someone I’d been sussing out at the previous gym (the one with the inappropriate coach). We had a fun date. Great chemisty. Our values didn’t align. So easy to just go out, compare notes, have fun and call it a day when we realised it wouldn’t work. Again, I don’t have the complicating factors of having feelings for someone else when in a relationship so nothing ever really has to be complicated with me. Not unless the guy and his insecurities make it so.
To address what you were asking about whether being with someone else improves our feelings towards ourselves I would say no. This isn’t to say that I don’t feel joyous when someone reciprocates how I feel. But I am happy within myself with or without someone else’s validation. I absolutely 100% do not require it. Besides, according to my dog, I’m the bestest of the bestest so the debate is over anyway 😎 How else can I be happily single for three years? Of course there are times of loneliness. I hate being a prisoner to my child because I have full custody. I would love to be able to go out and do things for me every now and then. But I would far rather be on my own than feel stifled by being in a relationship just for the sake of not being alone! For me to want to be with someone else, they would need to enhance my life not detract from my peace. There are absolutely men out there who could do that, but in my small part of the world they are few and far between (or married).
In my own experience of having feelings for a friend (other than LO which I royally messed up and wish to God I’d spoken up sooner about how I felt. As did he!) I don’t believe I was overflowing with emotion. We had been friends for maybe six months or so and I just asked him one time when we were hanging out if there was maybe something more between us. He said, ’no’. I said, ‘cool’. We continued being friends and it was all clear from that point on. He was a very good-looking guy and he liked women who had more of a certain ’style’ I suppose you could say. That was never going to be me and my constant casual ‘wear whatever I roll out of bed and fall into’ style. He wasn’t actually my type but he’d just be saying and doing things that had me a bit confused and then I wondered if he could be my type. Turned out, no. And that’s fine. I think feelings can definitely grow within friendship, but you really risk screwing it up (as I did with LO) if you take too long and they feel safe with you in a non-romantic way. Although it was LO who kept making comments that crossed friendship lines in my case and I would have been fine being friends if he had just stopped with the comments but it felt like he was playing with my heart on a string. Not cool 😔
Otherwise I haven’t really experienced what a lot of other people here have. When I’m in a relationship or if someone else is in a relationship, my brain just can’t compute having feelings for them (even LO!). I suspect that’s the black and white part of being on the spectrum. I am able to see greys for many things, but when it comes to doing the right thing by other people, I tend to be a bit black and white. Do you feel slaughtered? 🦈🦈🦈
CMC,
“Do you feel slaughtered?🦈🦈🦈”
Nope, all the points you made are totally fair responses and I am not offended by any of them.
“I don’t know if men can understand how it might feel if an aunt or mother-type figure suddenly said she was in love with you, but wouldn’t you feel blindsided by that?”
For heaven’s sake don’t ask Adam to answer this 😅 (I’m ribbing you Adam, hope no offence). CMC when you put it that way, yeah I do get your point completely.
“I don’t know how your colleague feels. I am fairly certain someone I worked with had feelings for me.”
The way you describe it working with your colleague is, I suspect (minus blushing) pretty much how my situation plays out. You could have written it all for me about how and why our dynamic works. We have had a long friendship and know a lot about each other. Since I have felt the attraction (the last almost 2 years) I have been really conscious to try just to act as close to what I did before as I can – to show I like her in other ways too, to give respect and – where needed – space, and to show I enjoy working with her. So I think that’s why she accepts how it is, whatever else she detects.
“Surely I’m not the only one who can tell the difference between “giving” energy and “needy” energy when you like someone?”
I think I know what you mean, but do say more / give example if it would help. The boundary is porous. I try to stay the right side of it, but am aware that I slip sometimes. I try and check myself and rein it back in when I catch it. She is quite good at showing me when this needs to happen too, without having to say it outright.
“there was a genuine connection, I’d say he’s the kind of person I would be OK talking to about it.”
This is the dilemma in my LE. I also think she’s the sort of person who I could talk about it to (the decade long secure base to the friendship means something here) without it having to be a problem. It may even clear the air / the elephant in the room. I am the problem in this, not her. If I said something like “from your point of view, could we ever be anything more?” while admitting that from mine, we ‘could’, and she said no, it might sting but I think we’d both move on fine eventually and it could even make the friendship more authentic. I could do with hearing a ‘no’ for my own sake, tbh. But I wouldn’t be able to deal with a yes or a maybe answer, and I am 50/50 that I would get that. We are not coming at it from a level playing field because I have an SO – so I wouldn’t be raising the question in the same way that I inevitably would have done if I was single. It would have been hashed out long ago if that was the case. But I feel it would be grossly unfair to say it in these other circumstances. This is why I keep it to myself even though it’s not ideal. She is a very moral person and in reality, may do any of fibbing in the response for moral reasons, or even telling my SO or requesting that I do. Nobody would get a satisfactory outcome unless it was a flat and clear ‘no’. It would create a lot of mess. Does that sort of make sense?
Having said that I feel we have a pretty established code between us, with only very little ever having been said to reach it, about where the boundaries of the friendship need to be to feel OK for us both, and when some pulling back on either sidr is needed. So we have kind of set the expectations without ever setting the elephant free, and this means things stay more consistent with just smaller ups and downs for me rather than manic limerent highs and lows.
“Besides, according to my dog, I’m the bestest of the bestest so the debate is over anyway 😎”
Love it. Same here. We all need a dog!
“you really risk screwing it up (as I did with LO) if you take too long and they feel safe with you in a non-romantic way.”
I am well past that point now unless I am ever single again, and recognise it. I would not disclose now unless circumstances change or she discloses to me (won’t lie if that ever happens).
“When I’m in a relationship or if someone else is in a relationship, my brain just can’t compute having feelings for them (even LO!). I suspect that’s the black and white part of being on the spectrum. I am able to see greys for many things, but when it comes to doing the right thing by other people, I tend to be a bit black and white.”
I like what you say. My moral compass really wants me to feel that way too. All I can say is I didn’t ask for the wiring I’ve got or for this situation to happen. Internally I have been in a storm for nearly two years of my life, prime years I won’t get back. Not asking for any sympathy! Just saying we don’t always ask for these things. The brain and heart run where they want to run. We can limit how far they run but they don’t quit easily. I am introspecting hard about it to try and work out what I can learn to prevent having to face the same again.
“I think I know what you mean, but do say more / give example if it would help”
My colleague had a giving energy in the sense that it was pure admiration and he didn’t require my admiration in return. I know exactly when it happened. We worked in different departments and he introduced me to a group of people from his department. I asked each of them what they were working on (they were all very young and fresh in the field) and just asked each of them a few follow up questions etc. I think he liked how genuinely curious I was to know what they were working on because all of a sudden he looked at me differently and was bright red. So I give him permission to like me because he saw a part of me that I value about myself.
In contrast, guys who have a ‘needy’ energy will be all flirty smiles and charm but zero actual effort because they’re so used to women falling at their feet. It’s all simper smirk toothy smile simper simper and no substance because they don’t know how to give. They don’t really know anything about me or even care. They just want to know they can have power over someone because they’re charming and good looking and everyone should worship them. When they don’t get it, it’s like a red flag in front of a bull. They simper more and smirk harder and it gets exhausting because I’m usually kind. I have friends who just tell them to p*ss off! But with me they persist because it’s not in my nature to do that. I haven’t had these issues for over a year now so I think I’m putting out a much more self-assured energy. I’m realizing they aren’t attracted to that!
CMC,
This makes me pleased to read, now I can understand the difference properly.
If you finally meet a man who is as self-sufficient and happy in his own skin as you are in yours, you’ll be onto a pretty good thing. And if not, long live the dog!
Lim-A-Rant
“For heaven’s sake don’t ask Adam to answer this 😅 (I’m ribbing you Adam, hope no offence). CMC when you put it that way, yeah I do get your point completely.”
You just made my Monday morning. Lol I got colleagues asking what I am laughing about as I type this. In the spirit of sharing if you asked me that, my response would be “yes mommy”. There now everyone can feel even more uncomfortable in the shark infested waters.
MJ has a difficult situation that I think most don’t understand. The societal double standard of an older man with younger woman vs older woman and younger man…. Believe me, I fight it about LO and her current partner. I fight to think “he’s LO’s MJ, he’s LO’s MJ”. So I do believe that MJ’s LO and LF being younger than him gets him a bad rap that he doesn’t deserve. I know that LO being younger than me got me a bad rap at work. So yes I am here to defend my brother. I had people here that gave me the “tough love” about LO being younger. Like where the hell have you been Miss Marcia?!?! You ain’t gonna like what I have to say at the end of this little spiel.
I remember how much he opened up with his first post. How he said his LO was young enough to be a daughter. And I remember the lack of responses to his initial story. He opened up and to me it seemed like his he was being shunned. I think Miss Lovisa was the second to respond to him after my first response.
I realize that age gaps are different to different people. I am not at all judging anyone’s response to MJs feelings about his LO or LF. We all react differently. LO was younger than me and I got quite the varied responses as an older man to that. Being that my boss has known me a long time means his reaction to my attention to LO was different than the other women in the office. Now to veer off course …..
“Surely I’m not the only one who can tell the difference between “giving” energy and “needy” energy when you like someone?”
Cordilla
Some people give off energy naturally. As I mentioned before (I believe in this thread) LO had an energetic aura. One could not help but feed off that energy. And it did not feel like it was forced. Or that it taxed her that I fed off that energy she vibrated. She drew out the scared and hiding extrovert in me. And did it so naturally and organically. Momma is the only other woman who can really draw that out of me. Especially when we first started talking, even if it was, at first, only online. Not a lot of people can bring that out in me.
So it might have come off as “needy” energy to others. Most of my colleagues gave me “grief” over how I interacted with LO. Mild ribbing like “maybe we should have LO ask you to do X than we know it will get done”.
Anyway I guess I am done. I do feel MJ gets a harsher response most times than even me. And I should be dealt harsh with. Rolling on almost three years now. And I guess I had quite the relapse over the weekend. Momma told me last night that I told her Saturday night that “I was in love with [LO]”.
I went to church Sunday. The pastor was talking about how the church started up (long before I started attending) and I got to thinking how long I have been going there. A year and half now. When I got the chance to talk to the pastor after the service, I recounted my first day at the church. I told him how he asked “are you trying to outdo me?” and I responded “how could I outdo your sermon” to which he said “no you’re dressed better than me” lol cause that’s how my mother dressed me for church. And he had a laugh at that and told me he remembered that.
@Adam
I’m a bit lost with your response. Is there a difference between older man and younger woman vs older woman younger man? I would’ve thought it’s far more socially acceptable for older men to be with younger women.
As a woman, I just wouldn’t and probably couldn’t go there.
There are plenty of men in their 20s and 30s that fantasize about older women. I’ve been on the receiving end of that too. My limit is approximately ten years either way. That still gives a good 20-year age bracket! The difference in life experience and maturity is just insurmountable in my opinion. But then if he was young and did have his life together in a way generally only older people do, I suppose I’d consider it. Hmmm but highly unlikely🤔
Anyway, to return to the acceptability of it. The reason, Adam, is the power disparity. Right now, the number of videos on the internet speaking about how women are lesser and the younger they are, the more pliable, is the concern. That is why women my age are wary. That is why certain men don’t even consider women my age. Because we wouldn’t be pliable.
In MJ’s case I don’t think it’s so much about being pliable as needing to be rescued… From what he’s always written, he seemed to be a very feeling sort who was just very confused. The way he’s been writing about LF since she drove off and he discovered the PA… well I already commented on that.
@MJ if you’re reading this, I don’t want you to feel shunned and I don’t think anyone else here does either. I think everyone here is trying to get you to see how LF was probably feeling. It’s very hard to know how other people feel, especially women who mask their fear (out of survival instinct). But that’s why we’re telling you. From what you’ve always written, it seemed you wanted to protect LF. I have said it before, from my basic psychology knowledge, it feels like you’re either trying to recreate the relationship with your wife that you messed up (maybe round the age LF is now?) or trying to fix the relationship with your daughter through LF. Whatever the underlying reason, your partner should be your equal, not a rescue project. In recent years I’ve learnt that about myself. I constantly tried to rescue my friends. Very unhealthy dynamic. But it was all a distraction because I didn’t want to admit that I needed to rescue myself first. I might have been single since figuring that out, but single in a much healthier and happier way!
“Is there a difference between older man and younger woman vs older woman younger man?”
Cordellia
I can’t say I have kept my ear to the speaker of current events but in one shinning ongoing issue of the disparity, at least in the US, is thinking of public’s opinion on 30 something female teachers sleeping with 16 year old male students and the reaction of a 40 something professor sleeping with a 20 something student. While one is legal and the other is not the latter tends to get more backlash than the former. Perhaps that is just the difference between how men view age and how women do.
As long as it is legal I don’t judge any kind of age gap between two consenting adults. And I think for the most part most people don’t. And maybe this pearl clutching is more from a vocal minority than the majority.
Also considering I am married and MJ was available to both LO and LF, means that the age gap between LO and I was just misery loving company. It’s why I try to take my own advice when it comes to her and the man she is with now. Maybe he’s her MJ and I have nothing to worry about. Cause as Mila asked me “wouldn’t it be great if she didn’t need any rescuing?”
And I know I put my toes in the water with my previous post and I want clarify I wasn’t saying anyone in LwL was judging or shunning MJ. I just can greatly relate to his LE with my own and he’s my brother and I might get a bit over protective. So I was not trying to stir the pot.
„ When I’m in a relationship or if someone else is in a relationship, my brain just can’t compute having feelings for them (even LO!). I suspect that’s the black and white part of being on the spectrum. I am able to see greys for many things, but when it comes to doing the right thing by other people, I tend to be a bit black and white.“
That’s so interesting.
I suspect my XLO to be on the spectrum, and I always had the feeling that, despite almost certainly being very attracted and a bit obsessed with me, he would never ever consider cheating or even admitting any romantic feelings to himself, simply because that doesn’t exist in his plan of the world and life.
That would fit your description a bit.
Hi Mila
Could be. I also think some people are just very moral ☺️ I know being on the spectrum is often associated with not feeling much, but I feel and sense too much. I think that’s also why people who come at me with intense feelings scare me so much. My brain can’t compute how they can feel so strongly without actually knowing me.
I was also scared of my own feelings for LO. I felt he didn’t deserve them. And he didn’t at the start. But then I missed the opportunity I had to say something way back in 2009 when we were both single. Oh well. I don’t lose any sleep over it these days.
Maybe your XLO was a bit scared of how he felt as well 🤷♀️ It sucks not knowing though. For the longest time I just wanted to know I wasn’t crazy and despite his denial, he did have feelings for me. Now it just doesn’t matter and that’s very liberating.
Hi CMC,
I think my XLO put his feelings in the category „normal feelings for my very best friend“. I do think he is scared of feeling too much, be it for me or for other situations, and he blocks many feelings, and that’s why he gets ill a lot when he‘s in emotional stress (only a theory).
He is also scared when I get upset or sad.
Also, he is a moral person, but I think not because he thought it over and has a strong conviction on it, but because he needs constant morals and guidelines in his life very much, and anything like questioning rules and morals would be too much for him.
Isn’t it great when it stops to matter if they had feelings or not? It all returns to normal size, somehow.
“I do think he is scared of feeling too much, be it for me or for other situations, and he blocks many feelings, and that’s why he gets ill a lot when he‘s in emotional stress (only a theory).”
Have you read the book “when the body says no?” That book sparked everything for me. I was reading that when LO and I started texting more often again in 2020. I was constantly unwell and extremely unfit. I couldn’t breathe when I was reading the book because it gave me panic attacks. I was able to recognise the way I tried to stifle emotions and how my mother had done the same. I could see how she deteriorated at a very young age and it made sense to me that it happened because she was never honest with herself and constantly denied her emotions. I am a very science-based person, but in my gut I knew the anecdotal observations made in the book were true for me.
CMC,
no, I don’t know it, another book to add to my list, or to bring to the attention of XLO? But that would be a bit patronizing,wouldn’t it.
I don’t think I myself have a problem in that area myself, but not sure before I read it. Thanks!
Hi CMC,
i’m not sure you were excessively harsh on MJ, it is a needed corrective to say you have no right to be destructive in your anger. But I’m not convinced he doesn’t have grounds to at least be aggrieved. I think that you are maybe projecting something on to his LO, but none of us know her so we can only judge outcomes and actions against generic standards of behaviour, and they have both fallen somewhat short of what a friend can be farily judged accountable for.
She seems to have been clear in her communication, but rather late, while MJ has not, but presumaby was all sorts of leaky, as we nearly all are when we want someone, limerent or not.
I don’t understand the timelines well enough, but right now I would understand her to be having in paralell a PA with one married colleague, and a very close friendship bordering on EA with an older colleague, where she likely at least suspected there was some unspoken attraction. To project from there that the PA is a reaction to the friendship is IMO going too far. She may well have been seeking a father figure, but I think most male-female relationships are often complex, with multiple layers that don’t exist in same sex friendships, and generally I think we are all a bit older here and understand there are borders we sometimes have to negotiate as we want friendships across the sex divide.
My feeling/guess is also that MJ waited too long, but she could have sought distance earlier. MJ cannot be vengeful about her not doing that, but can be dissappointed in her or slightly aggrieved. They are ostensibly friends with each other, and therfore should be held to the standard of wanting the best for each other. I would suggest she has maybe also missed the point where she should have made more directly clear that it is only friendship.
That though is only grounds for a dispute amongst friends, and maybe a breaking point for the firendship, if it was genuine, but no vengeful actions or excessive anger, only severe dissapointment.
Hi Heebie Jeebies
I agree I probably projected my experience onto MJ’s. I suppose my concerns are based in what MJ himself wrote. Saying that he put in ‘year-long efforts’ and the other guy “gets to keep cheating on his SO with my LF”
and
“All while knowing (or perhaps not knowing) the emotional and mental assault he’s putting on her.”
I was worried that he was seeing things from an unhealthy place and a very angry place. We all say things we shouldn’t but wanting to ‘make her wonder’ is probably something he’ll regret. The bottom line is, she obviously sensed how intense his feelings were and she made it clear she didn’t return his feelings. That should just be respected. Whatever her actions with other dude, they are her business. If he doesn’t want to be friends with someone who behaves that way then that’s his prerogative.
I keep having similar conversations with a friend of mine who does a lot of internet dating. The men she dates are low quality and treat her badly. I follow someone online who says ‘stop asking why does he?’ (or in this case ‘why does she?’) and start asking “why do I?”. Why do I keep making the same mistakes? Why do I keep wanting to be with the same kind of person who doesn’t want to be with me? Why do I? The woman I follow is no-nonsense but sometimes we really need to hear it!
I also disagree on the male/female friendship thing. We SHOULD be able to have friendships with both sexes because it doesn’t seem to matter the sexual orientation in many cases as we have seen on this forum! I have had women disclose as well as gay men. Who am I allowed to be friends with then?
I’ve been thinking about the whole disclosure thing as a result of this. I’ve always said if people would disclose to me, it would make life easier. I would behave differently with them. I think, though, that if someone has hidden how they feel very well and they’re certain I have no inkling, then they don’t need to disclose. The ones who did disclose in a dramatic way were the ones that made me the most uncomfortable. And I never had any idea in any of those cases. It did, however, tell me that I needed to be more guarded in my interactions with them. It’s the neediness that drives me up the wall. I think if I ever came across it again, I’d just probably joke about it. I think I’ve finally realised what it’s all about and I think I have the confidence to gently put a stop to it now.
CMC,
So it sounds from that and previous posts like you have both bad experiences because of non-disclosures / holding back, and also from dramatic disclosures that made you feel uncomfortable. So both ways can be wrong. There’s a lot wrapped up in your different disclosure-related arguments!
I’m trying to think what from all those discussions, and those with others here about disclosure, might be common ground. I have come up with:
– ‘dramatic’ versions of disclosure are basically never good
– there is a sweet spot timing-wise that involves not waiting too long. Once too long has passed, different expectations are set in the LO’s mind. Then any attempt to try and change those is likely to backfire
– if the feelings are leaking all over the place and the limerent can’t stop that, it could be fairer to disclose.
What me and many others at LwL encounter (and presumably also men who you cross paths with) as an obstacle to making an optimal decision about disclosure, is when we have an SO it is an obvious barrier to natural progression. Does that change your view of when a disclosure to you would be right or wrong? Presumably if the person that is interested in you doesn’t have an SO, you’d just want them to come right out and be honest (not in a dramatic way), so you can decide whether it’s worth a try from your perspective? But if they do have an SO, this changes the equation (for me anyway). It would then be a disclosure along lines of “I like you, but I’m not going to do anything about it”. Sorry to keep harping on this point, but that just seems a horrible position to put someone in. Or do you think it is still better that the person be truthful, even then, so that you are in possession of full facts?
LaR
Yes there’s definitely a lot wrapped up in these arguments! I just deleted a few paragraphs because I realised I was writing utter rubbish. I just don’t know any more! I think in every situation you need to weigh up the pros and cons specific to that context. Sometimes you just have to go with the lesser of two evils. I think you just need to acknowledge that everyone’s feelings in the situation are valid. You’re not an a**hole if you develop feelings outside of your relationship and you’re not an a-hole if you’re bothered by your SO developing feelings for someone else. I also don’t think you’re an a-hole if you disclose for what you believe are good reasons. You might want to work on yourself a bit if you can’t accept how someone else feels. That’s probably how I’d summarise it now 🤷🏻♀️
CMC, absolutely agree with your read of MJ’s response. I can imagine rejection plus humiliation on top would drive most of us to feel like that, the key thing is not to act on it. There is perhaps an element of entitlement in his responses which I think is maybe a more common male reaction and needs more of a corrective.
Also agree that same, lets call it same but opposite sexual orientation friendships (i.e. everyone is explicitly available to the other), are desirable and enriching. Before I was married i had a lot of female friends, its definitely reduced now sadly, but they had another quality that male-male friendships dont have and I sometimes miss that.
My view is simply that even just the explicit possibility creates an additional layer to the relationship, as it introduces the question of perception by others. If i find e.g. a female friend physically attractive in a neutral way, i.e. i know she is good looking but have no interest or intention of acting, I would always be careful to maintain a slightly increased physical distance (e.g. no bear hugs, more like a one arm hug), just to communicate subtly to her and anyone observing us that it’s purely platonic, in case i’m leaking any signs.
If you go to MJs situation, then I think it becomes even more complex, as both are available. I do think a general standard of friendship in those situations requires that you think and maintain at least a minimal awareness that feelings have arisen on the other side. I’ve once or twice tried to take the foot off the gas in the one or the other friendship when i thought someone was developing unreturned attraction. Im probably a bit weirdly prudish and my EI is sadly off the chart high (according to SO) which make social interactions often rather tense for me internally, but i don’t think MJs case is a marginal one.
The one possibility I would definitely leave open is that MJ missed the signs, I know many women struggle to be assertive and she may have been droping subtle hints he didn’t want to see, but he can probably report better on that if he sees these comments.
Yeah disclosure and neediness is awful…. i dont think anyone is ever going to argue about that except someone at the height of limerence madness..
LaR, Trifles, Mila, CMC,
A quick and brief jump in here —
I almost agreed entirely with what CMC said to MJ (1/25), because I understand her points well and had anticipated LF’s reaction a long while ago (the age difference and her (re)actions to MJ). But I did not have courage to “break” MJ’s hope or discourage his attempts — my N told me almost front the beginning it’s futile and MJ would get hurt.
To diversify and expand one’s interests, interactions, hobbies with others is advisable; but to diversity one’s emotions would just enable one’s emotional dependence on others, or shift from one to another, rarely or never be content being with one’s Self, with or without a dog. It would not take away or reduce one’s insecurity (wherever it came from originally).
My old point: TO/LF/GF would not work in beating up our LE or avoid future ones; one needs to work on one’s own issues without the emotional cane of TO/LF/GF, while appreciating genuine friendship, online or offline.
“To address what you were asking about whether being with someone else improves our feelings towards ourselves I would say no. This isn’t to say that I don’t feel joyous when someone reciprocates how I feel. But I am happy within myself with or without someone else’s validation. I absolutely 100% do not require it.”
That’s the goal I’m working on, and is getting closer and closer.
Snow,
Good to get a chirp out of you. Did you enjoy or are you enjoying the rest of your vacation? Hope you are in a serene place.
The journey you have been on towards self validation shows so much progress, evident in your LwL posts. I really admire all you’ve done. CMC’s ability to rely on herself is genuinely a joy to behold too.
Others like myself, MJ, Trifles are/seem not as far down that road to total self sufficiency, regardless of whether we have an SO or not. Going it alone can be difficult. I can identify a couple of years in my life when I did that best, and one of those was also the time I was most able to give generously to an SO afterwards.
When I talked to Trifles about diversifying, for example, really what I meant was diversifying her social circle so that TO wasn’t always her go to person, at her own pace. I can apply this need to myself too. To rely less on MFF I need more others around me. You could well respond that what we need is *ourselves* around us. And I would take your point if you did. But many humans are naturally groupish and need the feeling of a social circle too. I am not talking about deferring our emotions to other people as a proxy, I am just talking about keeping people that we like and trust close. This is what I said to CMC about how valuing a person who values you, and valuing yourself better, can feed each other.
“one needs to work on one’s own issues without the emotional cane of TO/LF/GF, while appreciating genuine friendship, online or offline.”
How to set a line between genuine friendship and an emotional cane?
LaR,
I did enjoy my three day getaway in the big island and was back home on Monday. It has indeed brought me a substantial amount of serenity, so much that I lost all my needs/wants to ramble here, can’t you tell❓☺️
“The journey you have been on towards self validation shows so much progress, evident in your LwL posts. I really admire all you’ve done.”
Hold on your horse, slow down…LaR, are you flattering me❓🤔 I’m still getting nervous/anxious to begin a new semester, facing new students and worrying about every single class — whether it’d be effective enough for them to learn what is required.
“Others like myself, MJ, Trifles are/seem not as far down that road to total self sufficiency, regardless of whether we have an SO or not. Going it alone can be difficult.”
Forgive me to be a bit direct here: Unless you (collectively) can go alone emotional/mentally for a period of time (varied length depending on personality), you cannot remove your dependency on others, that deep insecurity, and that NEED to get validation from without, especially LO/TO/LF/GF. (I had the huge needy feelings for a surrogate parent due to my circumstance)
“I can identify a couple of years in my life when I did that best, and one of those was also the time I was most able to give generously to an SO afterwards.”
There you go❗️👏 What does your example say about your alone time? — when one can generate enough joy from within, one then has ample joy to give or share with others. If one is needy (of bread), what is she or he able to give to others (SO, LO, TO, friends) — breadcrumbs❓
“When I talked to Trifles about diversifying, for example, really what I meant was diversifying her social circle so that TO wasn’t always her go to person, at her own pace. I can apply this need to myself too.”
IMO, TO or SO could not be and should not be the ONLY resource for one to go to; no single person can ever meet another’s every needs/wants. It’s impractical/unwise for the culture to put so many requirements, expectations, responsibilities and pressures on one SO, while everyone’s “needs” and mimetic-desires seem to continue growing in this FOMO era. I agree with Trifles that one’s life could be more colorful when we interact with different kinds of friends. I also agree with a pop view that it’s mentally healthy to have one’s own friend circle (from the past or build in the future) aside from SO.
However, when you used the word “need”, then it sounds problematic/risky to my ear — it requires external mental and emotional sources that are mostly , if not entirely, beyond our control. You (collective) can try your might, but still cannot get them; then what are you going to do? Cry, scream, resent, stalk, or even “retaliate”?
“To rely less on MFF I need more others around me. You could well respond that what we need is *ourselves* around us.
To rely less on MFF, you need ONLY your Self (spare your SO). Others could give you advice or support, but others are NOT your MFF and thus can’t replace/substitute her or meet that fundamental need/desire of yours, which sucked you into your LE. It might be fantasy if you believe others around you could take your mind away from your pair-bonding desire for MFF. But your Self (check IFS) can, solutions lie within your Self! 🪫
“And I would take your point if you did. “
I did! With incredible, unspeakable pains, I have severed 👽 🎭 off the Phantom, not based on any specific advice I got from here, but on my intense internal work with pains, depression and despair. Did you hear much about my daily, internal mental/emotional ramblings? (I could not talk about my LE with anyone in my reality). Now, the Phantom is either dead or gone hibernation, but a peace is with me. You may have to do what DrL points out in his latest video: sometimes one may have to sacrifice a good friendship in order to get rid of limerence.
“But many humans are naturally groupish and need the feeling of a social circle too. I am not talking about deferring our emotions to other people as a proxy, I am just talking about keeping people that we like and trust close. “
I trust that you know the difference between “connection” and “validation”. As a social mammal, we like or need to feel belonging or connecting with people we like and trust (may not always agree with), but it’s not seeking validation for our own thoughts or feelings! What if they think those thoughts and feelings are harmful for our own sake?
“This is what I said to CMC about how valuing a person who values you, and valuing yourself better, can feed each other.”
I disagree with you here. What happens when someone values me, but I don’t and can’t like or value them? This happened to me in the past, I simply did not care, I did not need or want their validation, affection, or “worship” – absolutely annoying! (You know the one in last month) An authentic Stoic or truly confident person cares neither negative nor positive opinions of others, but rely on ONLY themselves emotionally and mentally. Yet they still keep and make good friends and share joyful or painful time together.
“How to set a line between genuine friendship and an emotional cane.”
In a genuine friendship, one appreciates and enjoys the other side without NEEDING them. That friend is not always in our head, not for days, weeks or even months; one does not need or want to text them everyday or every week unless some specific incidents or events call it for. Using an emotional cane indicates that one can’t walk properly or independently on his/her own feet! Do you want to be a burdensome leaning on your MFF cane, when you can walk strongly and beautifully on your own?
“If we value a person then there is a fair chance that person’s presence in our lives improves our feelings towards ourselves. And the reverse is also true.”
Here I reflected hard within and have to agree with CMC; if you already feeing good enough on your own, why and how do they need to be improved by another? In limerence, LO’s/MFF’s presence seemingly improves our feelings towards ourselves, but often cut/alienate our connection with others or life as whole — we went into the altered state of mind, reverie, intrusive thoughts, endless rumination, validation anxiety, mood swings, separation pains, etc. In this typical LE scenario, how one’s feelings are actually improved, even if one finished a masterpiece (Goethe, Dante, and Berlioz) under such a “feeling improvement”⁉️
By contrast, in good or loose friendship, we don’t experience those LE symptoms, and we want, expect and need much less from them yet appreciate their presence and joyful/panful time we shared together. We can cry our eyes out (sadness), pull our hair out (fear), twist our arms off (anger), and tumble our head over toes (humor) if necessary. It’s an organic, trustful connection.
I would want to change your statement to —
“If we value a person then there is a fair chance that person’s presence in our lives improves our feelings towards ourselves, others, and the world at large. And the reverse is also true.”
That’s how I felt with my Lady friend and her humble husband last weekend. (I also cooked three feasts for their local friends I met before). After returning, I stayed with and enjoyed my podcasts, some movies, books and work; my mind gets more fulfillment and serenity….
By the way, I saw that cashier, Cutie Joe, for the 3rd time this afternoon. Like the 2nd time, he already lost that halo ring over his curly hair — nothing so special about his face. This time, I saw him heavily chatting and flirting with another female customer — I was right that it’s their job requirement: this and last time I also had two young male cashiers smiling and flirting with me (less than Cutie Joe), which was so bizarre…
After LwL, I wonder if I could ever hold onto a crush again…
Snow,
“It has indeed brought me a substantial amount of serenity, so much that I lost all my needs/wants to ramble here, can’t you tell❓☺️”
I noticed you were quiet and hoped that was why – I am glad to hear my hunch was correct.
“Hold on your horse, slow down…LaR, are you flattering me❓🤔 ”
It is genuine flattery in the sense of the fact I can really get a feel from what you’ve said about how your sustained efforts are bearing fruit for you (take the complement – don’t ‘be British’ about it 😅)
“no single person can ever meet another’s every needs/wants. It’s impractical/unwise for the culture to put so many requirements, expectations, responsibilities and pressures on one SO”
On that, we definitely agree. Not right to put that on an SO, not on anybody else either. When I talk about diversifying (for myself and others) I am thinking about ways to enrich oneself through others without having to rely on the SO or anybody else. I am not ignoring that this can be done through the self, just arguing that sometimes it can involve others too, if others are good for the self in a healthy way. Just take what you got from spending time with those friends on the island by way of example of what I meant.
“I also agree with a pop view that it’s mentally healthy to have one’s own friend circle (from the past or build in the future) aside from SO.”
This is what I mean by the above point and by things I said earlier – for myself and others – collective ‘we’. I confused the issue with my use of the word ‘need’, and you were right to question that. I will try to avoid using it now, or at least only use it if that’s what I really mean.
“To rely less on MFF, you need ONLY your Self (spare your SO).” … But your Self (check IFS) can, solutions lie within your Self! ”
The ‘spare your SO’ part is tricky on the ground, because my life and time are very wrapped up with SO, and unfortunately SO has been on the unwitting receiving end of some of the the worst of the LE’s worst effects on me, and has at times retaliated without understanding what she’s really retaliating against. I get what you are saying, I think – do the hard work on myself now without getting SO involved – but the issue when with an SO is carving out the time to do that, especially when one has not carved out a lot of time for oneself for a long time – while still also offering something to the SO.
“I did! With incredible, unspeakable pains, I have severed 👽 🎭 off the Phantom, not based on any specific advice I got from here, but on my intense internal work with pains, depression and despair. Did you hear much about my daily, internal mental/emotional ramblings?”
This is such good news to hear! Yes, of course I heard a lot of your ramblings across time, but I noticed changes in them, and then more recently a reduction in them, and hoped it was because you had finally got through more of the severing work. Rambling on LwL is fine when we need to, but I think if we can get to periods of time where we don’t need to ramble (because we are dealing with it inside ourselves) then that’s possibly even better. I’d hoped that was where you’d got to.
I don’t want to get far into this topic for now, or find myself feeling bamboozled (please bear in mind my point above about time constraints, which are big right now) but do you have just one or two recommendations for introductory meditation exercises that helped you with coping with things within yourself? For example, is there a particular person or approach that you like? I have tried mindfulness meditations in the past, loosely Buddhist inspired I think, but heavily adapted for a Western audience at a guess.
“Now, the Phantom is either dead or gone hibernation, but a peace is with me.”
A suspect it is hibernation. Remember, the Phantom – so you said – is a part of you. Not 👽 or anybody else. This makes it unlikely (to me) that it will have ‘died’ – just gone more quiet and content, more at peace with the rest of you? Obviously correct me if I’m wrong!
“You may have to do what DrL points out in his latest video: sometimes one may have to sacrifice a good friendship in order to get rid of limerence.”
Maybe – I don’t rule it out and I do know why you’re saying it. But this idea might also contain an element of projecting what has worked for you or others, without the full knowledge of my situation and what the broader effects would be if I sacrificed the friendship. It would be a worthwhile question to ask myself “would those effects be worth it to me to be rid of the limerence?” but that still stands as ‘question status’ for me, rather than being one I can answer yet.
You said the Stoic approach would be ‘prepare for the worst’ upon the ‘re-union’, and you were totally right. It instantly went overkill in the other direction (spending a lot of time together) until it became obvious that it was too much and a reset was needed. So yet another quick and intense spin around the merry-go-round occurred, until now when I feel a bit calmer and more resolute again.
The thing that gives me the most hope is Bewitched’s point about familiarity doing some of the heavy lifting towards ending the LE. Because of seeing more of each other, more familiarity occurred. With the increased familiarity it was possible to see her more holistically (not go looking for flaws, just get that fuller view). For example, a couple of traits have revealed themselves more just recently, where I did not just see them through the lim-glasses – I saw why I found those things difficult and why they’d be increasingly difficult with more familiarity. These are things to the level where they’d create a compatibility problem and where MFF definitely comes up less favourably than SO. I have not often been able to see these traits clearly but with passing time and familiarity I can see them more. They are not meant negative judgements on her (everyone has things others will find to be flaws). I still hope that the ultimate outcome is ‘recalibrate the friendship’, not ‘sacrifice the friendship’, but we shall see. I will keep you posted. Maybe I will end up going through the type of cycle Mila has had to work through, to arrive at what her ‘friendship’ can and can’t be.
(I would change your statement to) “If we value a person then there is a fair chance that person’s presence in our lives improves our feelings towards ourselves, others, and the world at large. And the reverse is also true.”
All the talk about valuing (self and others) between several of us has got very complicated and maybe I haven’t worded some of my points the most clearly. The above from you is basically what I was trying to say – I believe we are more on the same page than you think about this. I wasn’t talking about feeling forced to value someone else, feeling the need to artifically locate someone else to ‘value’, or accept another’s ‘valuing’ of you (if that is needy and unwanted, like in your recent example). I meant more that most people can form friendships or relationships where both people *more organically* grow to value the other – not forced … and that as long as that relationship doesn’t become cloying or co-dependent, it can be a very good thing for one’s self worth to have that. One is also more likely to be able to form such a bond if their self-worth is good in the first place. This was not, on my part, a reflection on any particular example of such a bond, more of an ‘in theory’ point, applicable to limerents and non-limerents alike.
“After LwL, I wonder if I could ever hold onto a crush again…”
What’s the connection? Why does LwL make that prospect more difficult? For me, it would only do that if I had installed the idea of a glimmer or a crush as invariably being a bad thing (which for me, it probably would be! But I am more interested in you here).
By the way, if you are experiencing more inner peace from not writing on LwL all the time, don’t feel obliged to reply to all my points or get sucked back in too much. A break can do people good, but you now have everyone replying to you at once (I have experienced this when taking even a week’s break) and I would say don’t put your mind back inside this spin cycle if you are doing well without it!
LaR,
“I am not ignoring that this can be done through the self, just arguing that sometimes it can involve others too, if others are good for the self in a healthy way.
Just be aware that no two people are like, what’s good/healthy for another might mean different things to our Self. It’s not easy to like or accept others’ points when they conflict with our own interests or personality.
“Just take what you got from spending time with those friends on the island by way of example of what I meant.”
I could and did not speak a word about (just hid) my emotional/mental activities, which I expected; so I spent hours alone during the deep night/early dawn to “dialogue” with my own thoughts or emotions. I enjoyed their company for whatever they brought in to conversations, a lot of irreverent chitchats. Still I was very curious to observe others and their life unfolding in front of me! 👍
“I confused the issue with my use of the word ‘need’, and you were right to question that. I will try to avoid using it now, or at least only use it if that’s what I really mean.”
Beside our basic survival needs, other higher needs — Maslow’s hierarchy of needs (desires), are debatable. I thought about it yesterday but simply do not have time now. My school opens tomorrow.
“The ‘spare your SO’ part is tricky on the ground, because my life and time are very wrapped up with SO”
That’s the double loads/whammy of any limerent with SO, when dealing with one’s LE. I believe there is double “need/urgency” to sort out the “triangle” dynamics — a sensitive SO is usually more confused.
“This is such good news to hear!”
Not sure how good it is. As I anticipated before, severing would cause other “deaths”, too. The sharp pain has passed.
“hoped it was because you had finally got through more of the severing work. “
Now I can attest DrL is right that actions could bring inconceivable, psychological effects. I did not particularly do anything except broke one NY “ritual” from the past 7 years; then a totally unanticipated psychological effect just took its own course — somewhat horrifying 😨, like a snowball rolling down the hill, which my logical mind could not stop. The Unconscious is indeed a beast!
“Rambling on LwL is fine when we need to, but I think if we can get to periods of time where we don’t need to ramble”
Once the aura/emotional charge of LE was fading and unexpectedly gone, the need/want to chitchat/discuss/debate about/related to it was just like a ballon shrank with a needle hole. My psyche was naturally pulled away from what’s going on in LwL — everything I heard and said appeared “meaningless” to me… I felt I was out of the giant babble when seeing you (and most others) are still in it.
“do you have just one or two recommendations for introductory meditation exercises that helped you with coping with things within yourself? “
No, I don’t; and I don’t trust any commercialized, individual or spiritual practice groups. I ONLY recommend the simplest and most challenging Vipassana (donation based) which requires one to make a huge commitment for 11 days — shutting down your entire communication system (since birth) in the middle of deep woods/mountains. Then with disciplined daily practice (even 15 minutes), one can benefit from it. It was not strong enough for me, so I conjured Jung’s self-hypnosis technique into it and can bring dopamine to myself whenever need it….
If you’re ever truly serious and interested, check out: https://www.dhamma.org/en/schedules/noncenter/uk — Vipassana Meditation UK
“A suspect it is hibernation. Remember, the Phantom – so you said – is a part of you. Not or anybody else.
But during our life span, many parts of our selfs died either naturally or killed by some external events, right?
“This makes it unlikely (to me) that it will have ‘died’ – just gone more quiet and content, more at peace with the rest of you? “
I hope so, time will tell. My mild depression has come back in its place, and I could not write one purple line lately…
“Maybe – I don’t rule it out and I do know why you’re saying it. But this idea might also contain an element of projecting what has worked for you or others, without the full knowledge of my situation and what the broader effects would be if I sacrificed the friendship. “
I used the word “May” (I choose my word carefully). I also said before that one might be able to kindle/enliven “temporarily sacrificed/died” friendship after LE is gone. As far as I could see, you’re still in the height of your LE, although the urge to disclose is curbed. Your friendship/MFF talks are still heavily brimmed by your LE colors/lens (no morality charge from me, just a psychological phenomenon).
“It would be a worthwhile question to ask myself “would those effects be worth it to me to be rid of the limerence?” but that still stands as ‘question status’ for me, rather than being one I can answer yet.”
You, or me or anyone else, don’t know “those effects” yet, you just imagine/anticipate them based on your emotions now. I had absolutely no idea or forethoughts what could/would happen once I stopped a ritual. (I have daily given the full green light to my itchy ☝️ to click, but it stopped itchy on its own.)
“You said the Stoic approach would be ‘prepare for the worst’ upon the ‘re-union’, and you were totally right.”
I’m notorious for being “self—righteous” — the undeniable and uncontrollable N in me! 😊
“The thing that gives me the most hope is Bewitched’s point about familiarity doing some of the heavy lifting towards ending the LE. “
But you’re not Bewtiched, and your life experience and interactions with MFF might quite different from hers and hers LO. Each limerent is in limerence in its unique ways, remember⁉️
“These are things to the level where they’d create a compatibility problem and where MFF definitely comes up less favourably than SO. “
Perhaps imagine and ask yourself, If without SO, would you get together with MFF? Why yes or not? Then focus on NOT parts — why wanting/desiring her so much even with those “not parts” as a potential SO.
“I still hope that the ultimate outcome is ‘recalibrate the friendship’, not ‘sacrifice the friendship’, but we shall see. I will keep you posted. “
I hope you can prove I’m wrong. At this point based on all your talks here, recalibrating will unlikely take place, in my “self-righteous” 👁️
“Maybe I will end up going through the type of cycle Mila has had to work through, to arrive at what her ‘friendship’ can and can’t be. “
But you are different from Mila, and her xLO sounds different from your MFF (also without SO), and two dynamics differ.
“that as long as that relationship doesn’t become cloying or co-dependent, it can be a very good thing for one’s self worth to have that. “
Oh dear, your current emotion and MFF’s sound quite “co-dependent” to my ear — her enigmatic flooding text and your reunion highs/lows. I don’t get highs/lows in interacting with any of my friends online or offline; I barely remember them when I’ m engaged in my work, hobbies, and books.
What’s the connection? Why does LwL make that prospect more difficult? “
LwL makes one more aware of one’s emotional and mental activities. Once analysis of one’s emotions/thought set in, emotions could/would be largely lessened or even killed. Who wants to knowingly fall into another possible altered state of mind/uncontrollable infatuation again? “It is impossible to love and to be wise.” – Francis Bacon
“For me, it would only do that if I had installed the idea of a glimmer or a crush as invariably being a bad thing (which for me, it probably would be! But I am more interested in you here).”
A glimmer is rare gift bestowed by Aphrodite/Zeus/whatever, never bad. However it can regrettably take one’s rationality/wisdom away, while analysis/logic could sadly kill its envliven, enlightening power. Based on my experiences, I don’t think I know anymore how to keep it alive while not feeling out of control or stupid, if it ever strikes me again.
“By the way, if you are experiencing more inner peace from not writing on LwL all the time, don’t feel obliged to reply to all my points or get sucked back in too much. “
Yes, I’m going to come here less. I no longer have that urge/need/want to “ramble”. I really hope that you could get a better control of your body, mind, and spirit and feel more and more fulfilled in your chosen preferred ways. Do feel free to shoot me questions at any time, I still scan over selected posts.
On the One Hand
Megan Fernandes
When I am newly angry at one person, I forgive
another. Infants divide the good breast from the bad
one, but really, we resent need. On our small,
transactional earth, God promotes a few angels
in the green jungle of wild selves. And the rest?
Thirst at the watering hole. I told you
how this would go. We would have a fight,
and I would become a jaguar, shrug my big
shoulders at your pain. Shrug like an indifferent
cat. You can’t win a fight with a cat, unless
you drown her. When you drown her, she is
resurrected as good. I remove myself from this
balancing act and spare you the labor of buoyancy.
I am not an animal that can be weighed.
********
about this poem
“One summer, I read a lot of Melanie Klein and her work on splitting and mental compartmentalization. Klein says that when infants are breastfeeding, they divide the good breast from the bad one, a beginning of object-relations theory. They love the ‘good’ breast because it nourishes them, but they also hate the ‘bad’ breast because they resent ‘need’ itself. I was struck by this idea—that we sometimes resent what nourishes us because we resent needing nourishment. Our own vulnerability and interdependence haunts us for the rest of our lives. Also, I’m a jaguar the way Dickinson is a panther.”
—Megan Fernandes
LaR,
I forgot one point in my yesterday’s post —
Other people’s affections, emotional supports, mental/emotional connections, should be the icing on the cake. One’s reliable self-validation is the cake — can be solidified or renewed.
Without the solid cake, the icing can’t stand stably on it or even fall/collapse into the shabby/weak cake. Then each can’t save the other. I’m not sure whether eternal icing could help solidify one’s inner cake.
You and patrons of Amoor Inn have been icing my cake through my challenging LE time, while I have been quietly, continuously solidify my own cake. I’m very grateful, and will continue taking cocktail orders whenever I can. (@my office hour now)
Snow,
Thank you for the extra point there (makes sense) and also for the poem and reference to Melanie Klein (I was pleased to see a tiny bit of purple prose emitting there from those fingertips of yours).
I think it is glaringly obvious from piecing together bits I have said that I have (and still do) struggle(d) to carve
out time to solidify and nourish my own cake. I don’t think any of that will be surprising to us or others who have followed my story. I do want to work on that.
That said, I know I’m not projecting a horrendous level of need into my real life friendships, as I am not struggling to maintain any of the ones that matter or being given irritated or ‘back off’ signals by people.
Perhaps LwL is a bit different because I have had a tremendous amount to unpack and it took me ages to get nearer the crux. I have pretty much been in unknown and not previously encountered territory as I have worked through the LE. So I do accept I have leant on this place and the community here to get a lot of validation and reassurance about how I have handled it.
I think with most other real life issues where I feel on firmer footing, I can self-validate an awful lot better and more quietly.
LaR,
“ (I was pleased to see a tiny bit of purple prose emitting there from those fingertips of yours).“
I can’t make or even think about statements of any kind anymore; my Unconscious and fate seem to have been in charge…
*********
The Unconscious Rebels
Once the Phantom is claimed stopped breathing
jumbled alphabets flooded to tumble
Given the daily green light to go
the itchy finger stopped ramble
After the decisive jump into the bottom of Inferno
a palm of light invisibly followed to upheaval
When the baby Snake broke out of its egg shell
the Black Hole heard its wincing giggle
a Galaxy unexpectedly hiccuped a whisper —
The Spaceship might be on its way
🐦🔥
1/30/2025
*******
This early evening I was unexpectedly picked up by a nice, humble (somewhat timid) Frenchman in an expensive grocery store (on my way home from tutoring). I didn’t see him at all until he approached asking me about finding loose-leaf mint tea….
After chatting a while in the tea section, he casually invited me to see a movie; I had nothing else planned for the evening and was in a relaxed mood. He picked up the movie, and I did not even check what it is all about (“Companion”), it’s too violent for me. He said he’d let me choose a movie next time.
We are in the same profession and similar age (my guess), he was in the town 20 years ago for his Ph.D and relocated here a year ago again with a job offer.
The only issue: there is not Glimmer for me, but enough of pleasantry, courtesy, and some intellectual discussions.
The years of Dragon were always tumultuous in all directions, collectively and personally; it seems that the Lunar Year of 🐍 has arrived surprisingly for its first two days… 😳
Snow, Snow!
This story about the Frenchman is so fascinating. Today, long after I have ensconced myself away for the long day at work, you will probably have a queue of LwL ladies plying you for all the detail.
So I’m getting in with the first coffee and words.
I didn’t know stuff like that (a casual pick-up (your word) and movie invite in a grocery store) still happened much in today’s world of Tinder. If he was somewhat timid, that’s a really big deal for him to ask that. I did once successfully ask a woman out in a supermarket! But I was a 17 year-old LaR then – different times.
Did you enjoy the ‘date’ enough to see him again? Interesting if there was no glimmer on your side to see how this could now go. You have said before that no initial glimmer instigated by you = no glimmer ever. You know yourself best, but do you think this guy could challenge that if he is kind and intellectually matched? We are all (clearly) very different, but it is probable those qualities could eventually bring on a glimmer in me, provided I had a certain base level of liking for the person’s physical appearance (even if it wasn’t an instant sonic boom).
You were quite trusting to just ‘roll with it’ and go and see the movie with him, I think.
At the least maybe it is the beginning of a nice friendship. This part is hard to read from a ghostly distance (I only know the male mind), but there seems a pretty fair chance he is interested (in more than friendship), by the very fact he asked you out in a grocery store – it’s bold (though maybe different and easier in your culture than mine). Or, perhaps he is just quietly sure of himself and thought “us two could get on as friends” and hasn’t thought too much about it, just been instinctual. What do you think?
Interesting times.
“I can’t make or even think about statements of any kind anymore; my Unconscious and fate seem to have been in charge…”
Can you tell me a little more so I can understand how that looks/feels/plays out? I can’t quite ‘reach’ what you’re trying to explain to me about your state of mind at the moment.
“The Spaceship might be on its way”
Sense check – not the old spaceship?
About snakes – they get a bad rap in general, don’t they? Like when is the snake ever the good or popular character in a children’s story? What positive things is the year of the Snake meant to symbolise? Happy lunar new year, by the way 🐍
Clarification – in my question ‘… challenge THAT?’, ‘that’ = meant your previous experiences of never getting slower burn glimmers from someone else who ‘likes you first’. I can’t word this well because of the difference in how we understand ‘glimmers for’, etc
LaR,
“I didn’t know stuff like that (a casual pick-up (your word) and movie invite in a grocery store) still happened much in today’s world of Tinder.”
I did not know either, that’s why it’s so romantic! 🥰 At beginning, I really thought he wanted to find loose mint tea, and he did ending up buying a huge bag. I hate tea bags so convinced him for only loose leaves.
“If he was somewhat timid, that’s a really big deal for him to ask that.”
Initially, I wanted to leave, he’s not my type and had beard! But he does not have that instinctual “look”/intensity I always run away from in the past. I was slow to realize what was happening and meant to leave when he went to different sections, but he kept coming back to talking about tea. 🤔
“Did you enjoy the ‘date’ enough to see him again?”
Maybe. We texted each other with one message each, I thanked him for the invite, he apologized repeatedly for picking up that gory movie. I told him right after the movie it’s was too gory for me — I had to cover my eyes several times, and my stomach felt nauseous afterwards.
“Interesting if there was no glimmer on your side to see how this could now go. You have said before that no initial glimmer instigated by you = no glimmer ever. You know yourself best, but do you think this guy could challenge that if he is kind and intellectually matched”
After getting home, I was actually glad that there was no glimmer, because I was totally myself, naturally interested in the person without any expectation involved. My P played along once I learned he’s from France, where it is rumored/stereotyped people argue/debate philosophies in bars. I’m always interested in big topic discussions. My T reacted, not much F.
“I had a certain base level of liking for the person’s physical appearance (even if it wasn’t an instant sonic boom).”
He’s short, slim, shy, with intelligent but not my type of “handsome” look. He likes sci-fic type of books and AI stuff, me classical literature. We chatted a fair amount when we walked 15 blocks for movie. I can’t imagine go to bed with him yet— My DNA had no reaction. I tried to feel what kind of “malicious” acts he is possibly capable of… 😀
“You were quite trusting to just ‘roll with it’ and go and see the movie with him, I think.”
I trusted my basic instincts, and we were in a very safe, crowded area. The movie theater was packed. My N knew he’s not “sticky”/stalker type and has a certain amount of maturity.
“At the least maybe it is the beginning of a nice friendship. “
I think so as long as he does not push for something I don’t feel like doing.
“by the very fact he asked you out in a grocery store – it’s bold (though maybe different and easier in your culture than mine).
It almost never happens in my culture at all — strangers are NOT to be trusted in romance! When I toured European countries, I got a lot of “date” invites in public. I never went, this was the first one, near my home.
“Or, perhaps he is just quietly sure of himself and thought “us two could get on as friends” and hasn’t thought too much about it, just been instinctual. What do you think?”
I appeared much more “grandiose”, friendly and carefree in the dynamic. Before we parted last night on the subway, I mistaken his cell with a spam number happened to be on my phone at the moment, he said, “you’re quite popular!” That sounded insecure to me — one does not command like that on the first “date” — the word I almost never used unless a guy was from a dating app. My P hates the word “date”, hinting planning is involved, it follows unknown adventures, not a fixed DATE!
“Can you tell me a little more so I can understand how that looks/feels/plays out? I can’t quite ‘reach’ what you’re trying to explain to me about your state of mind at the moment.”
I can’t say anymore I’m feeling this or that… this or that has happened… ie. “the Phantom is dead or gone hibernation”, “I’m out of bubble”…. Even if they formed in my mind without being voiced out, the Unconscious would strike opposite later or Fate bring some unexpected events, throwing me into some mental “wanderings”.
“Sense check – not the old spaceship?”
There is only ONE spaceship in my universe….
“About snakes – they get a bad rap in general, don’t they? “
It’s the ONLY animal (along with all bugs smaller than frogs), the thought of which gives me goosebumps! I can imagine to pet lions and tigers, but not Snakes in my next life.
“What positive things is the year of the Snake meant to symbolise? “
Nuwa
She is the goddess of nature, fertility, order, and marriage. In Chinese mythology, Nuwa is depicted as part-human and part-reptile, with the body of a serpent and the head of a human woman. Her amalgamation with a serpent is significant because snakes were connected with fertility.
There is a good TV series — “The Legend of White Snake”, which I grew up with, but I was always instinctively afraid of snakes, along with all kinds of crawling creatures/bugs, since I was little (Parents could not figure out why). I have been trying to get rid of this taboo. I ate snake 🐍 meat in restaurants, delicious — much tender than chicken…
Lucky New Year of Snake 🐍 to you, too! It’s’ going to be very unpredictable or tricky/sneaky to me, ALREADY….
How does one/woman very politely tell/hint to a guy that she strongly dislike/hates beard or any facial hair?
One brings a bottle of LWL-endorsed mustache removal cream as a gift? 😉
Snow
The same way my wife “hints” about her dislike of me NOT having a beard or any facial hair. “If you shave your face ever again I will smother you in your sleep and live off your life insurance.”
Trifles,
😂😂😂 excellent idea!!
What brand? French or Australian kind? LwL brand may make him bucker up his breaches and send him sipping champagne with our welder… 😂😂
How do you say “shaving cream” in French? Maybe I’ll get a bottle labeled all in COO characters (he said he likes COO calligraphy), so not to offend him when I hand it over in person?
Adam,
A bearded face would distance me, still a stranger, from even hinting anything like what your wife would directly and honestly say to you….
A bearded face looks dignified, but I cannot and don’t want to touch it, let alone 💋 it….
🧔🪒
I just have to chime in about facial hair. I love it! It’s so freaking hot! Adam’s wife is right. Also, since my LO3 learned that I like facial hair, he grew his first beard. He looks great either way, but I love his beard! He has some perfectly placed gray patches that make the beard even more appealing.
Snow, Lovisa etc,
I get you Snow, I‘m not a fan of beards either! While some men look good with them, I personally never fell for someone with a beard. It hides too much of the face. Somehow not my cup of tea.
Snow,
“He does not have that instinctual “look”/intensity I always run away from in the past.”
I think you have good trust in your strongly-developed N / S (in whatever combination these operate for you) to make the right judgements about things like this, and I applaud that 👏
“I was actually glad that there was no glimmer, because I was totally myself, naturally interested in the person without any expectation involved … My T reacted, not much F”
To my distant ear this sounds like more of a basis for friendship, but based on other bits you said (e.g. the shaving discussion with us) then perhaps F was moved a little? I noticed you said ‘not much F’ but not ‘no F’. I am impressed with the P reaction – as you know, I think more P in all our lives is a good thing.
“I tried to feel what kind of “malicious” acts he is possibly capable of… My N knew he’s not “sticky”/stalker type and has a certain amount of maturity”
Then N has already answered your own thought process for you as best as it can for now. Don’t look further for problems unless evidence presents to guide you that way.
“I appeared much more “grandiose”, friendly and carefree in the dynamic.”
Do you think that’s because he is just naturally a more awkward character type, or because he is attracted? What does N say?
“I can’t say anymore I’m feeling this or that… this or that has happened… ie. “the Phantom is dead or gone hibernation”, “I’m out of bubble”…. Even if they formed in my mind without being voiced out, the Unconscious would strike opposite later or Fate bring some unexpected events, throwing me into some mental “wanderings”.”
I think I see – so, every time you try and think / voice out an intellectual understanding of your current state of mind, fate or the subconscious throws you a curveball in the opposite direction?
“There is only ONE spaceship in my universe….”
Is this your own internal spaceship now, or still 👽’s? I couldn’t understand why you said it might be coming/landing if you meant 👽.
I am pondering your other message re Jung for a later reply.
I’m trying to pull back from my LE at the moment. It’s difficult, but I am maybe getting somewhere (can’t have NC as you know, so it is about changing the nature of the contact). Circumstances kind of leant themselves to it, so I thought why not give it a try, to attempt moving a bit away from the stasis I’ve been in. I might want to update / vent more about this at some point but will leave it there for now.
LaR,
“To my distant ear this sounds like more of a basis for friendship.”
That’s how I strongly feel at this moment. I don’t have an incentive to send him a text, which he directly asked (to choose a movie of my kind), a kind of waiting for my move. I may send one later asking for the movie membership he has joined (paying for a whole month with one movie price).
“but based on other bits you said (e.g. the shaving discussion with us) then perhaps F was moved a little? I noticed you said ‘not much F’ but not ‘no F’. “
Well, with more than 2 hours of the unexpected in-person interaction, I had a chance to see, feel, and contemplate all sorts of stuff, ie. his standing, confident posture while waiting for me to come out of lady’s room after the movie. I liked what I saw, but was not “sucked” into some unknowns like encountering a crush/LO . A bit of F, in all directions, would always inevitably follow T in any situation.
“I am impressed with the P reaction – as you know, I think more P in all our lives is a good thing.”
Believe it or not, LE could and did freeze my P, more reasons to get rid of LE.
“Don’t look further for problems unless evidence presents to guide you that way.”
There was something cold/strict flicking a tiny bit behind his eyes, much less feminine than my previous crushes/LOs, made me helplessly wonder, but I could not put my fingers on without any incidents occurred yet.
“I appeared much more “grandiose”, friendly and carefree in the dynamic.”
“Do you think that’s because he is just naturally a more awkward character type, or because he is attracted? What does N say?”
At the beginning, I felt the former; after the movie, the latter.
“I think I see – so, every time you try and think / voice out an intellectual understanding of your current state of mind, fate or the subconscious throws you a curveball in the opposite direction?”
Precisely!
“Is this your own internal spaceship now, or still 👽’s? “
My internal spaceship is named “Millennium Falcon”; it stays within me and I decide whom to be taken on board…
“I couldn’t understand why you said it might be coming/landing if you meant 👽.”
You need to use your P here…. My town is almost the most popular spot in the whole universe…😊
“I’m trying to pull back from my LE at the moment. It’s difficult, but I am maybe getting somewhere”
No matter how harsh sometime I sounded like, I wished you could keep the genuine friendship with MFF, but LE is not friendship. Since you had a glimmer initially, I wonder how “genuine” it was, even after you pushed down/buried the glimmer.
Based on my experiences, birth comes after death most of the time either in physical or metaphysical sense; but a strong rational/controlling mind refuses to see it and a weak/insecure spirit declines to believe it. It takes a fearless leap to “jump into the bottom of Inferno” and willingness to endure the silent darkness, without knowing at all whether a thread of light of some kind would ever shine over the head….
Snow,
“I may send one later asking for the movie membership he has joined (paying for a whole month with one movie price).”
Ah ok, now that to my distant ear does sound like you are keen enough to want to see him again, on whatever basis that may be!
“No matter how harsh sometime I sounded like, I wished you could keep the genuine friendship with MFF, but LE is not friendship. Since you had a glimmer initially, I wonder how “genuine” it was, even after you pushed down/buried the glimmer.”
I believe you. But it is genuine alright – just meshed with the other thing for me, but both do exist independently somewhere, and probably only the one thing exists for her. Teasing them apart might require steps back in order to take eventual steps forward, like you’ve said.
The steps back I’ve taken have not stopped us being friends, just changed the conditions and expectations a bit. A situation organically cropped up where we discussed the merits of stepping back a bit. Neither forced the idea on the other, it just came up. It does make it possible for either/both to do that without the other ‘dancing in’, unlike at other times. There is mutual intellectual understanding of why, which helps my F not go on the rampage or spiral or go attention-seeking from her. It was not a disclosure conversation, just about the friendship between us.
I know this is all weird to understand at a distance and with the concept of friendship that you have. It is difficult for me at times too. I guess with the initial squashed glimmer it can never be a ‘platonic friendship’ in the way that others are. But I also think such a platonic friendship between a (both straight) male and female is (in the West) quite rare, without feelings intervening at some point. Like you said, F is prone to follow strong T.
I have a two genuine close female friends of years where it has never been a consideration on my side, and on theirs that I know of – just no glimmer at all, more like sisters.
@Anybody,
What is a TO?!
💙
LN,
it had something to do with transferring, maybe transference object?
Yes, Transference Object — someone between LO and friend, helping transfer or take of one’s mind off LO/LE for the time being.
Hey Snow!
Great to see you here again ☺️ I think you have almost always understood the points I’ve tried to make! And yes, my dog isn’t my sole source of self- worth, but in times of self-doubt (which absolutely still happens!) she is my biggest supporter.
I love that you feel closer to your goal of being happy within yourself. It’s not an easy thing to achieve! I haven’t tried this, but I did see advice to speak to yourself in the mirror the way you would talk to your dog 🐶 Apparently it can feel difficult/stupid because our inner critic can’t handle the praise. Maybe I’ll try it one day 🤔
Thanks! I couldn’t figure out what it meant 😀
Hi Call me Cordelia,
I think some of our similar experiences (I did/do not want to talk about most of them) made me feel resonant with your posts — your words come from true experiences/insights, which might be incomprehensible (or harsh) to non-experiencers….
Once I saw/understood, through this lengthy LE, where the roots (3 types of cptsd) of my insecurity and unhappiness came from and cut the oxygen of them — (sub)consciously tried to get all sorts of validations from external collective and personal sources, I felt stronger and “taller”. My newly gained awareness of my self and the world around me (LwL included) has helped reduce a great deal of my self-doubts. I have my shortcomings and scars, so what?
My ultimate goal is to be solidly content (most of the time) within myself while cultivating enough Agape (-forming a part of contentment) for others (selective) and this highly imperfect world, just to beat up my frequent depression (perhaps with some genetic components) and can truly be alone without feeling lonely.
I rarely speak to a mirror but always briefly pet and “chat” with my pupils’ dogs and every street dog I pass by. They all know/understand when I greet or converse with them with my eyes. I’ll get one or two dogs eventually, NOT for validation purposes — I just cannot help love them!
I’ve been always encouraged by your posts (even if I disagreed with few of your points or actions), ever since I came to LwL. At beginning, I was pining for your (some others’) insights, empathy and verbal supports; a year and half later, I generate, cultivate, and strengthen my self-validating body, mind and spirit, through regular workouts, meditations, endless self-reflections (pains), discussions and debates with your guys.
Now, I just want to give you a High 5️⃣ !
Hi five ✋ right back ❄️
I’m so sorry for the pain you’ve felt. I know you get how I felt in those situations and how much it can have a lifelong effect on you if you don’t work hard to address it.
Absolutely get a dog! They give love so freely it’s impossible not to love them back with your whole heart!
I’m glad my posts might have helped you some and I’d never expect anyone to always agree with me! If it hadn’t been for this community disagreeing with me, I might’ve gone into a business meeting metaphorical guns blazing! All because past trauma was clouding my judgement and I was in panic mode. I like to think I value truth over being right 😅
A couple of months ago, I watched the original Nosferatu—100 years old now!—and one scene made me think of limerence gone wrong. The Count is staring at Nina from across the street, where they now live in houses opposite each other. He stares at her from his window with the creepiest expression, and she gets disturbed. Ever since I’ve been looking for an opportunity to mention this. Basically, don’t be like Count Orlok! 😉
(Second half of the video: https://youtu.be/R1N5feu0kKc )
Can anyone tell I’ve been stuck at my computer waiting for files to download etc for a few days now? 😅 I’ll disappear again soon enough.
@serial limerent I’d never heard of Nosferatu. That was creepy as! *shudder*
I also wanted to clarify a few things I said above. I’ll only be around as long as it takes to download these enormous files then back to the ether I go….
When I was talking about ’neediness’ it wasn’t just about good-looking flirty men. I agree with what Sammy said about ‘wanting’ to the extreme. It doesn’t have to present as flirtiness and, in my experience, only does so when men only place value in how they look. When they are scared that what’s underneath doesn’t count for much, they rely heavily on their looks and charm. Some neediness is purely because your self-worth is so reliant on the way someone else feels about you.
Of course as children we need love from our parents. As adults we do need love. We are biologically hardwired to need to belong. I think what is key, is realizing that if you genuinely love, you GIVE it. I was never angry with LO when he was with other women. I was only ever happy for him. I never needed his romantic love. I wanted the truth and words and actions to match, but romantic love was never a requirement. When my other friend said I wasn’t his type, I was in no way offended. In fact, he probably was the only guy who was ever really my friend and I appreciate that.
MJ, if you truly love her, you will be able to reframe the way you see her and you will be able to give to her without expectation of reciprocation.
This brings me to the relationship I had with my host father. I’d say that the love I felt for him was more than I felt for just about anyone. What an important role to play in my life! He should have felt special because he was so special to me. If that is the role you play for LF, then that is no trivial relationship. Just because it is not romantic, doesn’t make it any less important to her. I suspect you are misinterpreting her desire for a father/daughter bond with you and instead of seeing that role as lesser, see it as a vitally important thing!
@CMC and Coffeehouse.
I was coming at the concept of “want” more as a way for limerents to assess their own feelings and categorise their own relationships. Maybe “want” can even be used to distinguish between limerence-fuelled romantic bonds and non-limerence-fuelled romantic bonds?
I think a limerent would typically experience extreme “want” for an LO, and the level of want would exceed how needy one might usually feel in romantic or platonic interactions. I think if one substitutes the word “want” for “need”, then that highlights the reward-seeking behaviour that underpins so much of limerence/person addiction.
I think one can use the concept of “want” to pinpoint the identity of one’s LO, in case anyone (like me) manages to get confused about such simple matters. (My mind is like a rabbit warren – lots of tunnels leading nowhere). For example, if one can count five potential “romantic interests” in one’s life, but only really ever felt strong attraction (want) for one of those romantic interests, then the romantic interest one “wanted” was/is probably one’s LO. Limerence is desire on a whole other level to normal romance and I think that desire (for some of us at least) flies in under the radar.
I think the happiest romantic unions are those based on mutual liking. I think things can work out fine between two people if there’s a pleasant mix of liking and wanting. However, in relationships where there’s only wanting and no liking, things are probably doomed. “Wanting” by itself won’t sustain a relationship. Emotional intensity is no substitute for emotional intimacy.
It’s very disturbing to “want” someone one doesn’t like outside of the wanting. I think that’s how I felt about my former LO. And, looking back, I feel guilty about not actually liking him as a person. I was very much using him (in fantasy) as an extension of myself. But the fantasy (while in progress) felt more real than life itself.
„It’s very disturbing to “want” someone one doesn’t like outside of the wanting.“
That happened with my first LO. It was very disturbing and still disturbs me when I think about it, which I avoid.
Oh yes, there’s a reason why people still watch Nosferatu 100 years later. 🙂 The “unauthorized” movie version of Dracula. 🙂
Imho,
you wrote something somewhere😅
Haven’t started on the books as I have to a finish one first, but I‘ll report!
The result of my week with the new guy is that he now really wants the job.
What bothers me now is if I assume too much that he is like XLO (in work terms but also personality)simply because there are similarities, but he might be a complete asshole underneath and I’m blind to it? And encouraged him to apply and stuff, and in the end that was a bad idea? Well. Thank god I‘m not the only person to decide.
Mila,
Thanks. it will just be and happen. I guess best not to think too much about the hiring outcome or him in the memory of xLO.
Having said that, do keep us informed on developments 😂
I need to read books this year more, so recommendations welcome.
Hi Imho,
can’t recommend the last book I read, nor the one I’m currently reading..
I have to say that I generally tend to not recommend books because I seem to have a different taste from many others. For example, everyone raved about the Elena Ferrante books and I stopped reading after the first one.
I think the new guy only fascinates me because his resemblance of XLO and how my mind reacts immediately on it. I‘m really curious if he, like XLO, is actually a gentle soul and just cannot read social clues so much, or if he is simply a bit arrogant underneath.
Now he’s gone and I decided to not think/judge anymore and generally not waste energy in that direction.
There will be no hiring until May or June, and I don’t intend to go down the rabbithole of obsessing about this.
I think I’m on a good balance with XLO at the moment-I can have fond thoughts again without veering in limerent direction.
How is it going with you? Do you have any contact?
Mila,
Great to read that you have been able to get a good balance back with your friend and those rabbit holes to fall down, are not on your horizon.
As for me, yes there has been contact from him. I feel a bit calmer because some of the uncertainty and questions ( like me? like me not ?) have been answered when we met.
If circumstances were different and we went on to see each other face to face more often, then it would be more dangerous.
However, as the physical distance is now reimposed it creates a clear boundary as well as respect for SOs.
He has done so many interesting things since I saw him it makes me want to push on and be more active – be more like him (and his SO)- and that influence is a good one.
I still think about him a bit too much though. Sigh!
Hi Imho,
you sound ok about it though, which is good to hear! Could it be that getting the knowledge/validation that LO cares too gave you peace of mind, and now that distance is safely installed again you might be able to let it/him go with time?
Thank you Mila, yes indeed let’s see how it goes. Need to stay in balance and keep my focus in this reality and my own happiness.
I’m planning some things and new experiences in that regard and trying to do them for me and not to ‘impress’ anyone else.
I think subconsciously I have sometimes done things or gone places so I have ‘good content’ to prompt contact with LO. Sigh again!
Imho,
well, why not use that „wrong“ energy to a result that’s good for you- you might start out wanting to impress but have fun and validation in the progress so you forget about the whole plan and will just have found something for yourself in the end..
Exactement Mila !
it can bring very positive outcomes, even if the initial motives are a bit questionable. As you say it’s about channeling that energy in the right direction.
Finding energy and doing new things when getting a bit older is gotta be a good thing.
Hope all good with you.
Hi Imho,
all good with me, although very busy and behind schedule with things, and not feeling up to some of it, although it’s pleasant stuff that I took upon myself on free will..
Also, the episode with the new guy rattled me a bit, I got the feeling that there really is a beast inside me who desperately wants to cling to a new limerent object. Why this need for romance or for neediness for another LO?
I don’t want to say that I‘m limerent for this guy, not at all, I just feel the pull and the urge to get limerent, to get contact, I can observe it and shake my head, but it rattles me. Especially because I don’t think he‘s a worthy object at all- too young, too much convinced of himself, not intelligent enough, physically not attractive enough, not mature enough etc etc.
My limerent beast doesn’t care, it clutches at any straw.
I‘m not in danger, but I‘m a bit frustrated that this beast keeps fighting.
I need to be more like you and concentrate on doing new things for myself, and to concentrate on the actually very lovely project that causes me stress, but could be a well of validation.
Just curious because you said way earlier that there is a chance you won’t see your LO ever again. Is this still valid, or are there future events where you‘ll meet?
Mila,
I guess the key thing is not to be too hard on yourself about recent ‘new guy encounters’ and just let it flow past / through you. Fight it and it may stick in your brain more than otherwise.
If its a ‘desire’ thing, then maybe its hormones at play.
I feel this is much more the case with me than when I was younger. Last hurrah thing! Proving to self you still got it.
I can’t see me having another LO. I wish I could have 5 crushes on several others instead of this intense single LO.
I do still think he is genuinely special though.
Good luck with your project. I’m very behind also. Focus issues. I’m trying to just do one thing, even if it’s not the priority to get it done. Then do the next one thing. It kinda works.
Will I see LO again?
I really do not know. There is nothing planned. He may not stay in the organisation either, this has always been a possiblity. He talked about coming to my country for pleasure not business.
So lots of hope and uncertainty!!!
Imho,
the new guy just sent me three consecutive messages as answer to an Instagram story, fodder for the beast, but I‘ll stay calm and read them in daylight tomorrow.
I‘m not yet in the phase where fighting is counterproductive, I think, it‘s still relatively easy to convince myself to let go, so that’s what I try to do. It’s the first time that I consciously see an LE approaching and I feel able to say no thanks. Let’s hope I judge myself right.
Of course it’s also hormones. They play a big role in the whole limerence business, is my belief.
My first LE that I termed LE was shortly before I turned 40.
Now I‘m closer to the next big 0, and I get the feeling that there might be an end to limerence once menopause set in and hormones calmed down? Or not? Anyone here with experience of menopause and limerence?
I think it will still be quite a few years until I get there, but maybe someone here can help out?
Whatever happened to Marcia, by the way? Hi Marcia! Still on dark chocolate?
I posted before finished!
„ He talked about coming to my country for pleasure not business.
So lots of hope and uncertainty!!!“
Well! Looks like you‘ll see each other definitely again.. hard to say wharves the best strategy to go now- I think you have it sorted, looking for new things to try and persons to meet and just let hopes and uncertainty pass through you.
I don’t know—I’m in a very long perimenopause, will probably get to menopause soon, but limerence is still raging for me. 😉 Of course, it doesn’t help when it’s being actively encouraged, lol! I don’t know how things will be when menopause finally hits.
Where did „wharves“ come from, interesting word! I meant „what is“, which might be bad English anyway.
Imho and all,
I obviously can’t blame anything menopausal (maybe MANopause 😅) but ….
“I can’t see me having another LO. I wish I could have 5 crushes on several others instead of this intense single LO.
I do still think he is genuinely special though.”
.. you have no earthly idea just how much I hear you and empathise with every last word of that. Drat these bloody glimmers!
Mila,
Wow , 3 replies on your Insta story ! He is keen or else the subject resonated for him ?
Anyhow, you are very self aware after your other LEs which is good to apply your experiences and learnings to potentials. This is one of the great things about getting older!
On the desire subject post menopause, from my research and speaking to friends etc the desire varies a lot person to person and their situation etc
HRT is a factor if chosen to take, that can extend desire beyond menopause.
And you seem very positive that me and LO will meet again. I think you are a romantic at heart.
If he comes to my country it will likely be with his SO. Therefore, I need to try not dream about time together that likely won’t happen.
Wharves is plural of wharf, a place to moor a ship to load and unload goods 😉
LaR, you are very welcome to the menopause discussion!
“.. you have no earthly idea just how much I hear you and empathise with every last word of that”
thank you ! I wish us both the best because I feel we have still some way to go.
Imho,
Of course I‘m a romantic at heart, aren’t we limerents all?
You are right, if he comes on holidays he‘ll bring his family, reality check- but it might be the beginning of a beautiful friendship, Louis…🙈?
I read the messages, he simply wanted to show off with something;) I do think he wants to impress me, but I don’t know if it’s due to my position at work or personal, and as I said, I refuse to put much thought in it.
Wharves might be the best strategy! Just unload all the painful stuff and load the positive vibes on board.
Serial Limerent,
do you feel in the hormonal ups and downs that there are calm phases where the interest in LOs and stuff suddenly wanes? I feel that sometimes- it’s a bit scary and I don’t know if I think it’s pleasant, but that’s why I think it could be different in postmenopause.
LaR,
I actually don’t know how it is for men, isn’t there some sort of andropause?
@Mila: I’m not sure….It seems to depend more on how I feel things are going with LO. When things were more uncertain, I kept going up and down based on our latest interactions and how long it had been since I last heard from him. Now that things are more in the open between us, it’s a combination of constant ache (because of the barriers and going long periods without seeing/hearing from him) but calmer at the same time. Most of the time I just carry on with life, the things I have to do, reading, etc.
But then again, it’s also entirely possible that the highs and lows are related to other events in my life. The crush switched to full-blown limerence somewhere around the time I went through a series of events that were very emotionally trying and sometimes life-threatening. This included discovering that the perimenopause could also turn life-threatening if I didn’t go on HRT.
The HRT has evened everything out, but the limerence remains because LO encourages it. I can look back and see that he switched from just flirting to subtly pursuing me around the same time all these trying incidents were happening. Just a whole bunch of things together.
Mila,
I’d have to read to know if there is MANopause science! I think – though I didn’t consciously think this to trigger my LE – for many men the “last chance to prove to myself I have ‘still got it’ before I get old” comes into it.
SL,
Thanks for reply to my questions. Makes it clearer. Good idea not to divulge too much in a public forum!
Serial Limerent,
yes, I think it’s always a mixture of factors, it’s not just hormones or just frustration with SO or just life events. It’s never simple. Also, behavior of LO plays a big role too, as you say.
I get a bit of added progesterone for 10 days in my cycle and have to say, even though I was very skeptical, it does help, for example with a very restless and anxious mood I experienced a lot before I started it. I’m always in awe,and it’s scary, how hormones influence your whole character.
LAR,
Male menopause seems to be a bit of a vague thing, not to compare with female menopause. Testosterone seems to decline with age, but there’s not such a finite period of upheaval as in the female body. That’s what I glimpsed from a very cursory googling.
The temptation to prove one last time that I’ve still got it is something that I do experience too- my second LE was fueled by that and I actually proved to myself that I was still able to win over an almost 20 years younger woman- but at what cost…
I’m almost over that adolescent kind of one-upmanship, also because now I really am in an age where I don’t think it’s realistic to compete with 20somethings, but also because it stops to matter to me so much. It still does a bit though- proving that I’m still attractive.
I think it has to do with being very shy in my twenties and never realizing how attractive I am. But now I’ve actually had my fair share of proving it, and I really hope I can get past that need soon.
@MJ.
Other people have given you a lot of gentle advice to help you navigate the social/emotional side of things, so I won’t add anything. I feel other people have greater general social intelligence than I do. However, here are a few intellectual points which may – when you’re ready – help further ground you in reality. (I always think it’s interesting to understand the possible scientific/psychological meanings behind everything, once one’s emotions have settled down somewhat).
First, some insights from the experts:
Limerence may be understood as “the pair-bond gone wrong”. This is especially true when there’s a strong romantic element to the obsession. (Lucy Bain).
“Wanting” someone and “liking” someone are two different things, and the “wanting” part of the brain seems to be strongly activated during limerence. (Our own dear doctor, Tom Bellamy, recent YT video).
Call me Cordelia is indeed wise to point out that it can be discomfiting to find oneself on the receiving end of someone’s overwhelming neediness. (Someone else’s overwhelming “wanting energy” perhaps?) Often, in limerence, we may feel incredibly needy (i.e. want-y?) around LO, and they may pick up on this. It’s not really an ideal situation unless both parties are interested in pair-bonding, and can sit down and clearly discuss their mutual interest in pair-bonding with each other. Otherwise, the situation kind of turns into courtship-that-isn’t-really-courtship (i.e. a strained friendship at best?) and the whole dynamic can be icky.
Gift-giving is a very murky territory as a limerent because gift-giving, even if the gifts are welcome, will reinforce certain reward-seeking neural pathways in your own brain. I think shopping for gifts and giving gifts facilitates the release of dopamine. (Not the “pleasure chemical” per se but the “anticipation-of-pleasure chemical”. Dopamine, as Dr. L has pointed out, is primarily about motivation). In buying gifts, for example, you’re acting out your motivational drive to do things that will bring you closer to LO, thereby lighting up your reward system.
Limerence does eventually end. The day limerence ends will be happy because at last you’ll be free. However, the day limerence ends will also be sad because everything will no longer remind you of this one implausibly special person in your environment (who for you has tremendous incentive salience). You’ll have to let go of rewards, or anticipated rewards, that maybe were never within your reach or perhaps weren’t strictly appropriate for you to pursue in the first place.
I went to Christian school. In my final years, apparently quite a few students were struggling with intrusive thoughts over crushes, so they asked our Christian Living teacher what to do. His advice was almost Zen-like: “Birds may fly over your head, but you don’t have to let them make a nest in your hair.” I always thought this proverb sounded foolish. (What was the man on about?) However, in the context of limerence, I can see that my CL teacher was making a solid point…
It’s very natural to feel anger during limerence. Maybe you feel a reward slipping away. Maybe you believe you’re really the only man who would treat your LO right, and other males are unworthy of her affection. If you’re dealing with genuine limerence, the kind that may turn into person addiction and dependency, then surviving the ordeal is among the hardest things you’ll ever do. You will feel terrible a lot of the time. You will have extremely uncharitable thoughts about other people, particularly if they’re seen as rivals or as barriers to reciprocation. You’re pretty much at war with your own brain, and yet you’re not necessarily a bad person for experiencing the ups and downs of limerence in the first place.
You are in an altered state. This altered state is making you feel very restless and perhaps emotionally over-reactive (volatile). You may not always be your best self during this time. However, you will not always be in an altered state. Therefore, I think a good and workable goal is to resolve to “conduct yourself with grace” while you are in an altered state, despite finding yourself under immense internal pressure. I.e. don’t do anything you’d regret doing if you weren’t in an altered state. At the end of the day, the only person’s behaviour you’re obliged to account for is your own. Make sure you can be proud of your own behaviour. 🙂
I love this quote, Sammy!
“ Birds may fly over your head, but you don’t have to let them make a nest in your hair.”
It’s great advice for any Limerent.
If by ignorant mistake you already have the bird nests growing on your hair, shave it completely, with unavailable pains, so to grow a batch of brand new hair. Then brush your hair thoroughly everyday!
😆
Opps a typo: with unavoidable pains — embarrassment, regrets, and feeling ugly.
A Lover
Amy Lowell
1874 –1925
If I could catch the green lantern of the firefly I could see to write you a letter
******
If the firefly ever lands on my hair for a second, ♒️ alphabets will be flown to you
🐦🔥
@Lovisa.
“It’s great advice for any Limerent.”
It IS great advice for any limerent. Unfortunately, by the time I heard it, I was already so lost in fairyland that it didn’t mean anything to me… 😆
I hate to admit it, but I probably have a great deal in common with Snowphoenix. Snowphoenix is the person at LwL closest to being my (platonic) soulmate. and that’s why I find her so annoying at times. She holds up a mirror to me of all my own least-attractive qualities.
We’re both grandiose. We’re both self-righteous. We’re both fragile. We’re both desperate to be included in social groups we haven’t taken the time to understand. We both use “poetic licence” to prop up our respective worldviews. We both want to have the last word in any verbal exchange. We both, out of sheer ignorance, make all sorts of hideously embarrassing assumptions. Then, like cockroaches, we both emerge from disaster somehow unscathed – in large part thanks to vast personal charm. 😆
Oh, the pain of admitting one is just a flawed human being, after all! Oh, the pain of admitting one doesn’t know more about life than other people! 🙄😜😎
Wow Sammy, it sounds like you were feeling down when you wrote that. For what it’s worth, I wouldn’t use any of those phrases to describe you. I would say you are funny and insightful.
What a compliment to acknowledge (even hatefully) someone’s ignorant service as a mirror to another “matching” rival persona and as an example of what projection means in human interactions! 😳
It would take one to step out of their social “pack” to better comprehend a permanent lone-wolf like Nietzsche and Schopenhauer and realizes that every human being is, consciously or unconsciously, swinging like a pendulum between thriving and surviving 🔁
Tick, tick, tick….
Sammy & Snow
As someone on the sidelines that rarely gets into you two’s conversations (though I am glad to know you can relate to Nietzsche too Snow) not out of disinterest but because; you Sammy are too direct for me and you Snow have a worldview that I cannot relate to but I try to understand.
I do agree what Sammy said about himself and Snow though.
“We’re both desperate to be included in social groups”
See that is not me at all. At least in my older years. I have no desire to be “included” within social circles. I am totally fine in my social independence. But “she” (limerence) robbed me of that independence. Turned me into the dependent, needy, awkward, anxious little limerent.
To be direct, I would say that you are polar opposite platonic soulmates; one’s cruelly blunt and the other too nice and accommodating of others. The beauty of that kind of relationship is that you can both hone each other’s, for the lack of a better word, “weak sides”. To balance that out each of your personalities, as limerence has cruelly and painfully taught me about myself.
Tldr … I enjoy you two’s conversations. Don’t back off of each other.
Adam, Adam!
Are you trying to be the toughest peacemaker in the land of LwL? Do you know what would happen to the Earth if you try to push South and North Pole towards each other?
“Snow has a worldview that I cannot relate to but I try to understand.”
My head is jumbled with tons of different world views and rare personal experiences that might need to be combed through; never mind my ever contradictory and changing stuff. Sometimes, I took opposite or very different stands to practice my debate skills and understand other sides (like with LaR)
“To be direct, I would say that you are polar opposite platonic soulmates; one’s cruelly blunt and the other too nice and accommodating of others. “
It will take a Mother Theresa to deal with “cruel bluntness”; who else is able or willing? But I always respect high mental and emotional intelligence — the two rarely co-exist at the same level (I prefer the latter), our brain 🧠 is limited with its cognitive and neural cells.
“The beauty of that kind of relationship is that you can both hone each other’s, for the lack of a better word, “weak sides”. To balance that out each of your personalities…”
Hmm… Adam, are you a kind of matchmaker for platonic soulmates and their evolutions? Have you ever witnessed two “grandiose, self-righteous narcissists” got into wrestling? — a comet ☄️ would lose its color… and you might end up throwing your bottles away.… 😊
Sammy,
This is such a fantastic reply, so empathetic and full of good insight. I just read it after I posted here with similar / parallel agony to MJ.
I love your advice
I.e. don’t do anything you’d regret doing if you weren’t in an altered state.
It’s so hard, I have been in an altered state for a long time now, and I don’t quite remember what my non-altered state was like…I wonder how one goes about trying to be “Normal” when they can’t remember.
Maybe as simple as setting iron-clad rules and NOT breaking them, come hell or high water?
Anyway – I love your reply here, and will be rereading….as soon as I sign off now! I also find the thoughts on the neediness and “ickyness” to be interesting. 🙂
CSC
CSC,
You nailed it! This is great advice for us Limerents!
“Maybe [my aim should be to set] iron-clad rules and NOT break them, come hell or high water?”
Mic drop!
(Or is it Mike drop? The spelling doesn’t look right.)
Lovisa,
Haha – I honestly imagined tying myself to the mast of a ship — during a storm. You know in movies where the hero’s ship is going to sail near the island where the deadly Sirens live? And they don’t want to crash on the rocks, they don’t want to go near that island??
So, the sailors relinquish control, and lash themselves to the mast. And nobody steers the ship, the ship just goes, it usually goes through a huge storm….but it doesn’t end up on the rocks, and the sirens are in the rearview.
But, yeah, they are tied to the mast.
Something like that??!
poor Mike, getting dropped so much. Poor guy!
CSC
CSC,
I love that analogy and I think it applies perfectly right now.
Poor Mike, lol.
All through my youth, they spelled it “mike.” Then in the past decade or so, I noticed people spelling it “mic.” I don’t know why; I refuse to spell it that way, because it looks like it should be pronounced like Bic pens. 😉 (i.e., “mick”)
Imho,
This book recommendation is not necessarily for you… But it’s one that I think rescue fantasists here should read. I don’t recall if you are one (but probably not one of the worst cases 😉). The recommendation won’t exactly compare with War and Peace… But on the positive side, it’s easy reading for even those who don’t enjoy reading much. And the setting of the book is somewhat interesting to men.
I think the book depicts how toxic and scary a culture that promotes the stereotype of damsels in distress and white knights can get when everyone buys into them, *especially the women to be “saved”. I think rescue complexes are fed by the culture especially in the US (Disney princesses, etc). Any guesses on the book? Why, it’s “Only Say Good Things” by Crystal Hefner. Of course there’s other scary themes in the book, but this is the one that really creeped me out.
Personally I’ve never been able to play the damsel in distress role, even if someone had guaranteed me it would’ve gotten me the man I wanted. On the contrary, I’m fiercely competitive and independent and if I had to choose, I’d prefer to rather be seen as the rescuer than the rescued. …While still trying to keep away from actually rescuing anyone, because it’s very condescending! Yes, that keeps certain types of men away from me – which is probably *very lucky for me. Of course I’m also lucky to live in a country where all people are able to have their own finances, for example, and don’t have to rely on someone else for their welfare.
Thank you Trifles,
I was not expecting that book recommendation from you. You are full of surprises. I may give it a go, especially if it’s an easy engaging read.
Struggling with focus -anyone else !?
I don’t subscribe to the damsel in distress stereotype, but I do see that for many women ( and some men ) who have been the strong one and doing most everything in the family and working hard in a job etc , that at some point the resilience gets worn down and the appeal of someone to “save you” starts to become very appealing.
But we all know that ain’t gonna happen 😉
Winter Night
Amos Wilder
O magical the winter night! Illusory this stretch
Of unimaginable grays; so shadowy a sketch
Only the fading inks of spirit artistry can etch.
Here is nor dawn nor eventide nor any light we know,
This ghostly incandescence and unearthly afterglow,
This far-spread conflagration of the fields of snow
That pales the clouds, snow-laden, and blanches all the night,
As though in place of moon and stars some spectral satellite
Cast glamor on the earth and floods of violet light.
The wraith-like landscape glimmers, valley, lake and hill,
Unutterably patient! Intolerably still!
No inclination of a leaf nor songster’s trill.
. . . So could one stand an hour, a day, a century,
Breathless . . . What frozen silence! What immobility!
As of some gray unfinished world in age-long reverie.
O whither have you vanished, treading the leaves of fall,
Bright spirit of the summer, leaving the scene in thrall
To silence? To what springtime, far, far beyond recall?
What far retreat of being, what ebbing of the flood
Of life to bless far landscapes anew with leaf and bud
Has left prospect passionless and charmed this stricken wood?
. . . And yet from depths how distant, that tide of green shall rise,
And that bright spirit come again with April in her eyes,
And winter’s pale Winter Night
Amos Wilder
O magical the winter night! Illusory this stretch
Of unimaginable grays; so shadowy a sketch
Only the fading inks of spirit artistry can etch.
Here is nor dawn nor eventide nor any light we know,
This ghostly incandescence and unearthly afterglow,
This far-spread conflagration of the fields of snow
That pales the clouds, snow-laden, and blanches all the night,
As though in place of moon and stars some spectral satellite
Cast glamor on the earth and floods of violet light.
The wraith-like landscape glimmers, valley, lake and hill,
Unutterably patient! Intolerably still!
No inclination of a leaf nor songster’s trill.
. . . So could one stand an hour, a day, a century,
Breathless . . . What frozen silence! What immobility!
As of some gray unfinished world in age-long reverie.
O whither have you vanished, treading the leaves of fall,
Bright spirit of the summer, leaving the scene in thrall
To silence? To what springtime, far, far beyond recall?
What far retreat of being, what ebbing of the flood
Of life to bless far landscapes anew with leaf and bud
Has left prospect passionless and charmed this stricken wood?
. . . And yet from depths how distant, that tide of green shall rise,
And that bright spirit come again with April in her eyes,
And winter’s pale prostrations be but phantom memories.
******
Will the tide of green rise again far and near?
Will the winter’s pale prostrations be but phantom memories?
Will the tiny hut be blessed with leaf and bud on its thatched roof?
Will that bright spirit come again really with April in her eyes?
🐦🔥
Winter Night
Amos Wilder
O magical the winter night! Illusory this stretch
Of unimaginable grays; so shadowy a sketch
Only the fading inks of spirit artistry can etch.
Here is nor dawn nor eventide nor any light we know,
This ghostly incandescence and unearthly afterglow,
This far-spread conflagration of the fields of snow
That pales the clouds, snow-laden, and blanches all the night,
As though in place of moon and stars some spectral satellite
Cast glamor on the earth and floods of violet light.
The wraith-like landscape glimmers, valley, lake and hill,
Unutterably patient! Intolerably still!
No inclination of a leaf nor songster’s trill.
. . . So could one stand an hour, a day, a century,
Breathless . . . What frozen silence! What immobility!
As of some gray unfinished world in age-long reverie.
O whither have you vanished, treading the leaves of fall,
Bright spirit of the summer, leaving the scene in thrall
To silence? To what springtime, far, far beyond recall?
What far retreat of being, what ebbing of the flood
Of life to bless far landscapes anew with leaf and bud
Has left prospect passionless and charmed this stricken wood?
. . . And yet from depths how distant, that tide of green shall rise,
And that bright spirit come again with April in her eyes,
And winter’s pale prostrations be but phantom memories.
******
Will the tide of green rise again far and near?
Will the winter’s pale prostrations be but phantom memories?
Will the tiny hut be blessed with leaf and bud on its thatched roof?
Will that bright spirit come again really with April in her eyes?
🐦🔥
Winter Heavens
George Meredith
1828 –1909
Sharp is the night, but stars with frost alive
Leap off the rim of earth across the dome.
It is a night to make the heavens our home
More than the nest whereto apace we strive.
Lengths down our road each fir-tree seems a hive,
In swarms outrushing from the golden comb.
They waken waves of thoughts that burst to foam:
The living throb in me, the dead revive.
Yon mantle clothes us: there, past mortal breath,
Life glistens on the river of the death.
It folds us, flesh and dust; and have we knelt,
Or never knelt, or eyed as kine the springs
Of radiance, the radiance enrings:
And this is the soul’s haven to have felt.
****
Have you ever seen
life glistening on the river of the death?
A week after Father’s passing
I watched a small cockroach
enringing the kitchen floor, glistening
I let it pass….📿
Hello everyone. Wanted to share an update with you all. Had a couple of occasions recently when LO was present. We did not speak to each other. I was ok to speak, thought I will say my greetings, make some small talk, and move over. But, none of this happened.
It was the same story again. All this caused me to be sad. This shows that exposure to LO still causes all these negative emotions in me. No exposure, and I seem to do fine.
Anyways, I will chin up, take it in my stride and move on.
Its really frustrating how I make great progress, and then one exposure puts me off. Who knows when this cycle will end? Since these are social interactions, maybe I need to not attend them, just to make things easy for myself.
On the positive side, things with SO are really great. I am hoping this will help me jump the LE hurdle.
Sorry for venting, and thanks for listening.
Hi ABCD,
I‘m sorry you feel sad again, but maybe it was to be expected?
Do you think you would feel better if you would just walk over, say hello, small talk for a bit and leave again? (the last bit being the most important: leave the conversation by your own decision and control).
Or would it pull you back? It really depends on how far you got out of limerence, I guess.
I wouldn’t cancel social events because she‘s there, but that’s me. I‘m a bit „I’ve had so much trouble because of this person, I definitely won’t let this spoil events for me on top of that“.
Thanks Mila. I bounced back from the latest episode pretty quickly, was feeling better in a days time.
Sometimes I do go over and say hello, that helps.
This time I did not do it as SO was also present, and I was worried about leaking my emotions so I thought it’s better not to approach LO on my own.
Yeah, so far I have not cancelled any such event, let’s see.
Anyway, I take this in my stride and move on.
Sounding good, ABCD.
I‘m glad that you bounced back fast- it‘s all progress!
Pentecostal
D. H. Lawrence
1885 –1930
Shall I tell you, then, how it is?
There came a cloven gleam,
Like a tongue of darkened flame,
To burn in me.
And so I seem
To have you still the same
In one world with me.
In the flicker of a flower,
In a worm that is blind, yet strives,
In the mouse that pauses to listen,
Glimmers our
Shadow as well, and deprives
Them none of their glisten.
In each shaken morsel
Our shadow trembles
As if it rippled from out of us hand in hand.
We are part and parcel
In shadow, nothing dissembles
Our darkened universe. You understand?
For I have told you plainly how it is.
****
The Blustery Glimmer
In the room full of limerents
Glimmers come and go
fiercely tumbling every heart high and low
brighten our Light, glisten our Shadow
in the Spring’s innocent green shower
in the Summer’s eager golden sunflower
in the Fall’s desperate crimson leaves
in the Winter’s somber white snow
one after another
new after old
Some brightly zoom through like a comet
Some dimly linger like the North Star
When It is gone or burned
the Light and the Shadow hug each other
recede hand in hand into the silver invisible
🐦🔥
1/28/2025 — The Snake Year Eve
Snake
D. H. Lawrence
1885 –1930
A snake came to my water-trough
On a hot, hot day, and I in pyjamas for the heat,
To drink there.
In the deep, strange-scented shade of the great dark carob tree
I came down the steps with my pitcher
And must wait, must stand and wait, for there he was at the trough before me.
He reached down from a fissure in the earth-wall in the gloom
And trailed his yellow-brown slackness soft-bellied down, over the edge of the stone trough
And rested his throat upon the stone bottom,
And where the water had dripped from the tap, in a small clearness,
He sipped with his straight mouth,
Softly drank through his straight gums, into his slack long body,
Silently.
Someone was before me at my water-trough,
And I, like a second-comer, waiting.
He lifted his head from his drinking, as cattle do,
And looked at me vaguely, as drinking cattle do,
And flickered his two-forked tongue from his lips, and mused a moment,
And stooped and drank a little more,
Being earth-brown, earth-golden from the burning bowels of the earth
On the day of Sicilian July, with Etna smoking.
The voice of my education said to me
He must be killed,
For in Sicily the black, black snakes are innocent, the gold are venomous.
And voices in me said, If you were a man
You would take a stick and break him now, and finish him off.
But must I confess how I liked him,
How glad I was he had come like a guest in quiet, to drink at my water-trough
And depart peaceful, pacified, and thankless,
Into the burning bowels of this earth?
Was it cowardice, that I dared not kill him?
Was it perversity, that I longed to talk to him?
Was it humility, to feel honoured?
I felt so honoured.
And yet those voices:
If you were not afraid you would kill him.
And truly I was afraid, I was most afraid,
But even so, honoured still more
That he should seek my hospitality
From out the dark door of the secret earth.
He drank enough
And lifted his head, dreamily, as one who has drunken,
And flickered his tongue like a forked night on the air, so black,
Seeming to lick his lips,
And looked around like a god, unseeing, into the air,
And slowly turned his head,
And slowly, very slowly, as if thrice adream,
Proceeded to draw his slow length curving round
And climb again the broken bank of my wall-face.
And as he put his head into that dreadful hole,
And as he slowly drew up, snake-easing his shoulders, and entered further,
A sort of horror, a sort of protest against his withdrawing into that horrid black hole,
Deliberately going into the blackness, and slowly drawing himself after,
Overcame me now his back was turned.
I looked round, I put down my pitcher,
I picked up a clumsy log
And threw it at the water-trough with a clatter.
I think it did not hit him,
But suddenly that part of him that was left behind convulsed in undignified haste,
Writhed like lightning, and was gone
Into the black hole, the earth-lipped fissure in the wall-front,
At which, in the intense still noon, I stared with fascination.
And immediately I regretted it.
I thought how paltry, how vulgar, what a mean act!
I despised myself and the voices of my accursèd human education.
And I thought of the albatross,
And I wished he would come back, my snake.
For he seemed to me again like a king,
Like a king in exile, uncrowned in the underworld,
Now due to be crowned again.
And so, I missed my chance with one of the lords
Of life.
And I have something to expiate:
A pettiness.
*****
The Snake 🐍 knows ignorance is not bless, and Adam and Eve need to taste bittersweet 🍏 / 🍎
The Smile of Innocence
Lucretia Maria Davidson
There is a smile of bitter scorn,
Which curls the lip, which lights the eye;
There is a smile in beauty’s morn,
Just rising o’er the midnight sky.
There is a smile of youthful joy,
When Hope’s bright star’s the transient guest;
There is a smile of placid age,
Like sunset on the billow’s breast.
There is a smile, the maniac’s smile,
Which lights the void which reason leaves,
And, like the sunshine through a cloud,
Throws shadows o’er the song she weaves.
There is a smile of love, of hope,
Which shines a meteor through life’s gloom;
And there’s a smile, Religion’s smile,
Which lights the weary to the tomb.
There is a smile, an angel’s smile,
That sainted souls behind them leave;
There is a smile that shines through toil,
And warms the bosom though in grief;
And there’s a smile on Nature’s face,
When Evening spreads her shades around;
A pensive smile when twinkling stars
Are glimmering through the vast profound.
But there’s a smile, ’tis sweeter still,
’Tis one far dearer to my soul;
It is a smile which angels might
Upon their brightest list enroll.
It is the smile of innocence,
Of sleeping infancy’s light dream;
Like lightning on a summer’s eve,
It sheds a soft and pensive gleam.
It dances round the dimpled cheek,
And tells of happiness within;
It smiles what it can never speak,—
A human heart devoid of sin.
*****
Yet there is a smile, ‘tis bittersweet,
It smooths Crow’s feet along deep eyes
It distills surging of wary hearts under the blue Sun
It eases the destined push of Sisphyous Stone
softening the rambling of its downing roll
It stills ebbing flickers of weary twilight
It deepens slumber of soul in a moonless night
It is the smile of maturity.
🐦🔥
1/29/2025
the Snake Year Day
Hi Fellow Limerents,
It’s been a little while. I had been resisting coming here because this is where I come when I hit rock bottom…aaaand I am back with an update. I went NC in late December. It was working great. It was…liberating and finally, in the New Year, I felt more stable and more sturdy. Creative. Organized. Looking forward to things, tentatively. I still felt bruised, but…more sturdy.
Of course, because I am an addict, I decided now that I was feeling more stable, it was time to rise, like a phoenix from the ashes, and make an appearance in front of LO again (delusional, completely, and foolhardy). It had been weeks. I was back to fabulous control….As for my LO, we used to see each other a few times a week at the gym, and communicated in fun on IG fairly often. He then deleted IG. I thought to myself “well, if he deleted his IG, that says it all. he still knows how to get in touch with me. He can re-instate it and DM me.” It seemed like a perfect time to go NC. Why not?
Through my NC, this was what I kept repeating. “If he wanted my contact information, he can DM me for it.” …and I didn’t hear from him. And knowing he was making a choice, by doing exactly nothing, kept me sane.
But, on Jan 12, I took my delusional Phoenix-Self back to my gym…and he was there. Immediately, he comes up, takes his phone out of his pocket, and says “can I take your number…remember when you said you would show me how to xyz (an art technique I said I’d show him)…can we make an actual plan to go get coffee and you can show me how to do that?”
I gave him my number. (and my heart exploded with joy) He was all smiles, telling me all these things he’d been doing in my absence, including going to see a movie I had mentioned before, and wanting to talk about it. He never goes to movies. But he went to this one, with his cousin, apparently. He was simply brimming with things…like…a puppy who can’t stop wagging his tail.
A couple days went by. I saw him again. He told me he needed time to get his materials so I could show him how to xyz (art technique). He told me it would take a few days to get himself together, but when we did get together, he wanted it to be “serious”…saying “We always have a lot of fun together, but i really want to understand this.” In a nutshell, I told him “No problem, I can help you whenever you like. And yes, I am serious about my artwork, so of course I will help you in a serious way”.
Fine. Uh.
So, it’s been a couple of weeks. No plans. A few extremely short (literally) one-word texts based on topics we have discussed. Have seen him a few times, he has not mentioned word one about any of it.
He is 30. I am 49. I am attractive. But yes, that age difference is insane. And…of course… I have an SO whom he doesn’t totally know about (I don’t mention my SO.)
So now….I am in agony. I did this to myself, I played with fire, now it’s worse, and he played back. But, I think I’m dealing with a “hot and cold” person.
The proof is in the pursuit, and while I believe I was pursued for a moment there, I think…I think he just wanted not to lose contact. But I think he’s confused. Or, not interested, and was momentarily confused.
I feel like an utter fool and like I was so careless with my self. I have no idea what to do next. No contact again, after knowing we have each other’s contact information is excruciating…
He has been friendly to me, but not…not like that day when I came back from NC. Not urgent.
He has no clue how I feel. I am very, very straight-laced in my interactions with him. No flirting, just smiling and having fun.
Oh god, help. Tell me to delete his number, go NC, and even if it hurts him, ghost ghost ghost. Do I join a SLAA meeting group?
I cannot spend another year of my life like this. And yet, I keep relapsing. Nothing, nothing in my life gets me as high as this person. I am failing at all the plans I had made to climb out!
I know they say there’s no such thing as person addiction but I really think they’re wrong. I’m working so hard to right the ship here…but I have relapsed badly.
TLDR I am in agony
Admonishment, kindness, eye-rolls, anything, appreciated.
Guiltily, CSC
CSC,
No real, useful advice from me, but just wanted to say I commiserate. Ugh, that’s terrible behavior from him. If I were an armchair psychologist I would probably diagnose him with ADHD or some such. That is just not within the bounds of normal social behavior. Completely hot/cold, getting excited about something and communicating it to someone else, and then completely flaking.
If it was me in your situation I would probably try to confront him calmly and say: “Listen, if you want to get together to talk (xyz), let’s do it soon or let’s forget about it.” Maybe I’d have the guts to say it…
But the more important question is, if he actually agreed to a date and time, and you went for coffee, would that leave you better or worse off (with regard to limerence)?
Let me amend my previous answer… I would try to find a strong enough reason to cut him off again. That flakiness is just horrible – can you use it as your ‘out’?
Small clarification: strong enough reason *to convince yourself* to cut him off again.
CSC,
I can almost feel your agony, I’m so sorry and I can relate!
First, don’t beat yourself up about the relapse, you would have had to be almost inhuman not to slide back after such a welcome back in the gym. It‘s normal that it threw you into turmoil. (Sorry. my English is even worse than usual today).
So I wouldn’t waste time with „I shouldn’t have gone there, taken the nr“etc. etc. I think there was no way you could have fought that kind of surprising warm welcome.
What happened happened, what counts now is how you deal with it.
Warning, I‘m being a bit blunt now.
I think he is nowhere as occupied with you in his thoughts as you are with him. He likes you a lot and remembers that when he sees you, but in between he probably doesn’t think much about you. He just hasn’t come round to get the materials together, maybe his enthusiasm at learning this art work has lessened a bit, and he feels a bit guilty that he always forgets to buy the stuff, that’s why he avoids contact a bit. But he has no idea that you notice it or what agony you are in. Its not that he‘s playing or being hot and cold, it‘s all simply not that important for him.
That’s pure conjecture of course and I might be completely wrong. But it is a very real possibility, isn’t it?
I just want to shake you out of the belief that anything he does- instigating contact, giving you his nr or not dm you- has a big meaning or is deliberate. Maybe he gets titillated a bit by having the attention of an attractive woman and maybe he wants to keep feeling that way.
If you felt good with no contact, why not try it again- change the gym, work out somewhere else and don’t instigate contact? If he‘s serious with learning from you, he‘ll contact you.
The big question is, do you really want to stop the whole thing or not? Seriously?
Then you could just give him some numbers or addresses where he can learn the stuff, and look for another gym.
You might not be at that point yet. Maybe think in small steps- what would make you feel better now? Having certainty, like asking him straight out if he‘s interested in learning or not? Or just not going to that gym for a while?
I wouldn’t delete numbers, cut contact etc, do radical things, if you know deep inside that you cannot pull through, you will feel worse when you relapse again.
Maybe just try to focus on other things and persons for now, push him a bit out of your attention, ignore that you‘ve got his number, have a nice time with persons that don’t have anything to do with him etc.
“He has been friendly to me, but not…not like that day when I came back from NC. Not urgent.”
I would say you keyed in on this part, which is crucial here. You noticed this and you feel it. You mention also that you feel like he just didn’t want to lose contact. That he might be confused or simply momentarily confused. I would say that I believe at some level, he enjoys your company and maybe in what ever way that it makes him feel likable and validated. However it is somewhat flaky. You have to decide if this is good enough for you. You can continue ride on this and enjoy the high or get off the coaster now and go cold NC again. It’s not for me to decide. Your heart is what you should go with here.
I say kudos, because at least it sounds like the 2 of you might be getting coffee soon. However you also have a SO, so thats where I can only remind you and say tread carefully with that. I don’t want to dish out advice that may infact be awful. You’re probably in a somewhat altered state thinking about LO and so you’re going to go into overdrive with emotions. I can’t say what SO isn’t doing for you, that you think LO could do.
I have had a similar situation recently come up with my Lady Friend, that I’ll be posting in an update soon. The LwL family recently gave me a boatload to take in about it, so I’ve been on a little mental break..
MJ,
Thank you – I read your post / update up above, earlier today. It was actually your update that made me feel safe to share my own…I thank you for that. 🙂
While it may seem coffee is imminent, reality seems to be saying otherwise. It has been since the 12th that those “plans” have lauguished…unmentioned, unacted-upon.
We’ve seen each other. No mention. It’s like…it was all a dream. It’s awful. It is…..W…….T…….F……………?
I have to step back. It’ll be painful. But I have to get through it and climb out of this hole.
You are right, I’m in a very altered state, on overdrive, and I can’t trust myself with anything right now. Though getting support here is helping me feel a bit less insane, and that is something!
“While it may seem coffee is imminent, reality seems to be saying otherwise. It has been since the 12th that those “plans” have lauguished…unmentioned, unacted-upon.”
I’ve been down this route before. As the limerent or the one in desire, it’s like it takes forever and it’s only for coffee. Which seems ridiculous..
“I have to step back. It’ll be painful. But I have to get through it and climb out of this hole.”
I do highly recommend LC to help put things in perspective. It helps in gauging the other person’s motive/interest or where they stand with you. If they truly want to reach out, they will.. Although it may not always be genuine. However you seem to be struggling at the moment, plus you have a SO and perhaps that is what you need to focus on most right now.
MJ,
I’m glad you’re still here. I think some of the comments were harsh – or came off as harsh – when you hadn’t actually done anything wrong. They almost went into the territory of ‘accusing’ you of thought crimes. You are allowed to vent your frustration here. This should be a safe space. And we should know that thoughts we have in the midst of rejection are going to be frustrated. It doesn’t mean they’re going to turn into actions of any kind.
A tongue-in-cheek observation if I may… Somehow it seems (some of) the men and women here are from different generations, even though there’s not many years in age difference. Some ‘old school’ thinking comes across here in relation to men’s and women’s roles in society and in relationships. I mostly just read these with mild amusement.
But I can kind of see how some of the women are interested in younger men! Their line of thinking and values can actually be closer to ours.
(Personal note from my side – I prefer men close to my own age. But a more important quality than age is one’s open-mindedness!)
@Trifles
Thank you Friend. I was actually surprised with the motherload of comments and the tone in some of them. I’m still going back and re-reading and allowing it to sink in. In a way it reminded of my first post here from a few years ago, where the comments felt almost harsh, but it’s ok..
As someone with a Management background, I’m kind of used to being criticized harshly. It just comes with the territory. I’m trying to be nothing but genuine and truthful and I know this limerence stuff just makes everything even more ridiculous at times. I know I don’t always play my cards right. I’ll be the first to admit it. We all have our opinions and are entitled to them.
I’m currently working on a proper update to address all the replies and will proceed from there.. Stay tuned and I’ll be looking forward to hearing from you again.. 🙂
MJ,
I second what Trifles said. This should be a safe place for you and all of us to vent things out and figure things out.
Just because anyone disagrees or gives different perspectives, that doesn’t adjudicate that one view is right and the other wrong. It just gives you perspectives to pick parts from. Just as I believe for myself, you know your LE situation best in an ‘on the ground, living it’ way. The rest of us are acting on partial information only.
I hope this week has treated you more gently.
@Mila @Trifles,
Ohhhh my goodness….Thank you for understanding, and validating my experience here. Thank you from my heart. I have been so alone with all this. It’s intrusive, exhausting, upsetting, and I feel ashamed I’m in this place, and confused at how I got here. It’s been hard.
The only person who knows at all about this situation is my Mom (she is 86 and not a limerent. Her response, God love her: be less “hormonal”…which makes me feel more ashamed, like I’m an inappropriate, hot-to-trot gym cougar, which I’m not. I’m a friendly, attractive, personable woman, who is serious about her yoga time. I’m not a sex-obsessed lech, I am not a flirt. I’m just…there doing my yoga.
I also very much appreciate your confirmation that I am not actually crazy. Since both of you responded the way you did – it sounds like his behavior IS confusing. Mila, yes! Either he is very naive and doesn’t understand he is hurting me, or, yes, he is enjoying the attention from me, maybe both…but I very much doubt he has the kind of longing for me that I am enduring, for him.
Both of you are right, re: patterns of hot/cold and not doing what he says he’ll do. This is not the first time he has promised something to me, then seemingly forgot, or never followed up. Til now, it’s been little things, a book he said he’d bring me, cookies he made and promised to bring me one, or…that kind of thing. (No book, no cookies). I should have taken even those little situations as red flags…Talk is cheap.
Yes, good point, Mila. To be honest, even if we did agree to meet for coffee, he probably would not even show up! Or, if he did, it would be one more vague thing to add to the rest…then yep, I’d be right back here, in agony all over again.
I think you two are right, I need to step back. Having you see this from an outside perspective, you have encouraged me. In a perfect world, he would not be behaving so carelessly with me, but in THIS world, it is my responsibility to protect myself.
I may just add…I can’t help but think he’s kind of a stealth love-bomber. (I left out the part about him wanting to show me a certain balance exercise. This scenario ended up with him noticing how long my fingers are, and putting his palm up. He asked me to put my palm against it, so he could see if my fingers were longer than his. This was the day AFTER the coffee meeting was proposed.) It was totally unneccessary. I don’t know why he did it – but, Mila, you are probably right in that he had NO idea I would take it as a flirtation. It’s not a sexy gesture, but I don’t think I can be blamed for being…a little confused by this kind of thing???
Yes, this is crazymaking. You two are absolutely right. I cannot handle it, he may not understand it’s agony. Mila, you are 100% right he is not thinking about me when I’m not around as much as I think about him… (he does think about me sometimes, because he tells me he “thought of me when he saw” such and such…) but, no matter what is going on here, if he wanted it to actually go somewhere, he’d pursue it. And I’m around, letting it happen…
I feel like, even in replying to you, giving more detail with all my “Yes, but…” scenarios here, you can see how my turmoil is caused by ongoing, very weird, signals from LO.
But, TLDR — you are totally right. I must step back. This is totally confusing, I’m not crazy, but if I keep putting myself into this situation, I’ll just go further down the Limerence Abyss.
So many thanks to you both. Sorry, I’m a fast typer, this is overlong…sorry.
CSC
Hi CSC,
just a short remark as I have to run- this palm incident is actually a bit too much. Or is he a very touchy-feely guy? I mean, I wouldn’t do something like that without being conscious that I’m initiating skin on skin contact. But maybe he doesn’t think- or I have to take back that he‘s not playing games. If he is playing, it’s all the more reason to run! You are not in a condition to play and it will only hurt you.
Yeah. Mila….
True. When it happened I was thinking, inwardly “What. Is. This.” It was intoxicating. But, I REALLY do not want to be some young man’s ego boost / oversexed cougar at the gym. Oh God, no.
I’m not sure if he is trying to play me. But, no matter what, it is up to me to limit contact or lop it off completely. I am struggling to summon the healthy feeling of self-protection, though. I’m still mired in that feeling of needing some kind of revenge or triumph when the reality is it is going to be a slog through withdrawal. Ugghhh
All of the help I received here, thanks you and the others, within the past 24 hours has me feeling like my head is screwed back on.
And the feeling of validation that yes, these are confusing signals, has helped greatly. I was doubting my perception. But I really do try to stay in control — and was wondering if I was losing my mind with all his advances. (Then retreats).
I hope you’re having a beautiful day so far, Mila. You’ve helped me so much.
🙂
CSC
Hi CSC,
I can totally relate to your fear of being an „oversexed cougar“- I don’t know if you read my last posts (hopefully not, they are not that interesting 😄), there is a potentially new colleague, applying for the vacancy of my last LO, the age difference is exactly like yours. While I’m not limerent, he glimmered for a while – we had a bit of confusing contact too, and I also don’t know if I’m pathetic and come over as an old woman who hasn’t realized her age or if I’m behaving ok and he was giving off vibes too…
I mean, meeting new people is confusing enough, but the added fear of coming over as a needy old woman who hasn’t realized that it’s not her time anymore (of course talking in clichés here)is new to me.
Me, I decided that I won’t ruminate about it and just leave him be and lose interest, and so far it has worked. But I don’t see him regularly anyway.
I think now definitely that he gave mixed signals, but maybe just loves playing a bit and doesn’t realize that for you it’s dead serious.
Limiting contact sounds good. as LaR said, just not initiating contact from your side might be enough- since it’s 50% up to him, it might show you that he‘s not serious in this and won’t get in touch.
Have a wonderful day too- nice weather in my part of the world today!
CSC/Mila
As a man Imma go out on a limb with a bit of a generalization …. I think there is a societal gender double standard between opposite sex co-workers. And maybe that is partly as (another) generalization men tend to be more laxed getting attention from female co-workers over giving attention to female co-workers. That being that HR will come down like Mijnoir on a man for such actions whereas men are less likely to take that extreme even if they feel the attention they get from a female co-worker is …. lavish? In my opinion both of you ladies just had a male co-worker being cautious. Trying to fell you out (ba dum tis) before being able to be relaxed. I am still very professional and cautious with our newest gal in accounting as she seems very timid/shy. So I take extra care to keep it on the rails.
Also don’t count yourself out because of your age. The saying that “every man marries his mother” doesn’t come from nowhere. 😉 Lots of men love being “mothered”. (Me!) And what better to do that than one that has been a mother.
Adam,
“Lots of men love being “mothered”. (Me!) And what better to do that than one that has been a mother.”
And, some of us don’t love being mothered.
My response to LO #2’s great confession was that I didn’t need a mother, I was looking for a partner. I told LO #2 that I had a mother and I wasn’t too impressed with her.
The therapist said that was one of the most significant things in my history of the relationship. The therapist said that LO #2 confessed that couldn’t control me and that she was afraid I would leave her and I snapped LO #2 right back to my mother.
I told the therapist that it took me a long time to make the connection between LO #2 and my mother. The therapist said that I was incorrect. I had made the connection decades ago but I didn’t understand it. That took decades and a lot of work.
As it turned out, my wife had one significant thing in common with my mother and it almost destroyed our marriage. I saw the warning signs early on but it took almost 20 years to come to a head.
Adam,
nothing would be further from me than mothering men, that’s reserved for my kids, and I‘m sure they have mothers of their own, as LE pointed out…
There might be women who enjoy being some kind of mother-type for younger men, but definitely not me.
You are right that co-workers should be cautious, male or female, and in my case it’s even more delicate for him since he wants the job and hasn’t got it yet. That puts him in a position where he can neither flirt nor be cold since he needs my approval. By no means do I want to seem a (quoting CSC) „oversexed cougar“ who preys on younger colleagues from her position of power…
But I don’t think that’s a reason for any behavior/worries in his case, he‘s very self-assured and doesn’t seem to think about such things at all.
Still, that’s one of the reasons I just leave this be and will keep a bit of a distance from now on.
In CSC‘s case, they are not co-workers, they just go to the same gym, and I actually wouldn’t describe his behavior as cautious at all.
But you might be right that in the current climate men are more under scrutiny than women. But that’s probably because it’s simply the case that more men than women cross boundaries in an aggressive way.
Wow, Mila.
If you have been able to control the situation with the young man at work…you have reached Ninja Level. A hearty round of applause from me!
I am sure you did not come across as oversexed cougar as you imagine (can we make shorthand for that, along the lines of LO? Can we do that haha? OC???) 🙂
I am sure it may have felt like you were roiling with emotion, but very little leaked out. I believe this in my case, as well. I think it’s easy to believe we are showing a great deal of vulnerability…when others do not perceive it. Not to the degree we do.
You are wise to pull back from this young man at work. Work entanglements can make life and living very precarious…I’m sure you know, it sounds like you do!
But, yes, it’s so weird, the glimmer. If you felt it, you probably got it from him. My hope, in all of these types of instances with younger people, is (and this is cruel, I know) that one day, they know how it feels. When they are in middle age, or beyond, I hope someone toys with them. Then…they’ll know.
Yes, I feel that my LO has been utterly careless. But, I have put him in the situation where he could be. I gave him my attention — and he ran with it.
Today I did go to my gym. He was not there. It pains me to write that. I was weak, I went. But, I also feel…Like I am going to let all this go. I am in so much pain and angst over it…and I’m so tired. I have to turn away completely. No contact – no temptation. No triggering. Finality. It’s horrific and I’ll have to face allllll the other issues brewing in my life….there are some biggies….but….I guess….I can’t put that off, forever….
Maybe there are brighter vistas, unimaginable now, ahead for me…Maybe?
Thank you, again, Mila. 🙂 I am glad the sun is shining for you!
Hi CSC,
no no, you got me wrong- this young man was only a small episode of short glimmering, no real limerence in sight. I mentioned it here only because he might take over the position of my last LO and I’m sure he only glimmered a bit because of that. My last LO was/is a good friend and ex- colleague of more than 10 years who left work and who is younger but not that much younger.
This young man I was speaking about is no real problem, compared with a fully grown limerence like yours.
For me, limerence was connected to middle age, but I think there are also young people experiencing it. They might not search the internet for solutions as much as middle agers, might just accept it as a severe crush, I don’t know.
Also, there are people who never experience it, so maybe your young man will never be in that agonized state of mind.
Me, I cannot say that I would prefer to be one of the people who cannot be limerent, I do have positive memories of feeling vibrantly alive and connected, wouldn’t want to miss them.
„and I’ll have to face allllll the other issues brewing in my life….there are some biggies…“
Limerence can also be a big distraction from other issues and sometimes our mind uses it so as not to have to deal with other problems.
„Maybe there are brighter vistas, unimaginable now, ahead for me…Maybe?“
I‘m sure of it!!
By the way, OC, very good!
uh… Adam?
To clarify, I’m 49 and have never had kids – my choice not to. That is also an option for women. Not to have them. It may seem crazy to some, but we are able to reach middle age, and beyond, without reproducing. 🙂
Holy Smokes, that is a messy situation! My heart goes out to you, CSC. Trifles offered great support, Mila and MJ had good advice. The only thing I want to add is, please remember that your LO has feelings, too. He isn’t trying to mess with your emotions. He was happy to see you and he didn’t want to lose contact in the future. He is interested in learning something from you, but the opportunity just hasn’t come up. It may never happen, but the desire is there. Give this poor guy a break. Treat him the way you would want to be treated if the roles were reversed. And if you can’t handle seeing him, stay away from that gym.
Good luck!
Lovisa,
Yeah, it’s a mess. A total mess. You have keyed in on something that’s really giving me trouble with all of this. I genuinely like him, even if he is a flake. He’s not a bad person.
I would love to have the energy of internal anger to compel me to stay away. As in, “He’s a jerk! Girl, NO!” …but…he’s not really a jerk. Just confusing. Still, I’m over my head for him.
When you say “The opportunity has not come up” I hear you — but…the opportunity is, he took my phone number, asked for plans, and has SEEN me several times since.
If that is not an opportunity, I don’t know what is. I do enjoy him, I think he’s a decent person. But…nothing is stopping him, except asking or texting me.
You are right – I will treat him with kindness, and a smile, as I always do. That part is very important to me, for sure. 🙂 But if it ever comes up, I may tell him I’m less than impressed.
CSC
CSC,
Can I first just say how much I admire your ability to find self-depracating humour in all you’re going through? It’s a credit to you. Your messsge, while sad, is still couched in very real words that all we LwLers going through similar (against better judgement) will find relatable. It’s good to have you here.
It’s a shame you only come to LwL when you’re nearing rock bottom as I think your viewpoints (including directly to me in the past) are among the very best ones.
You’ve already had great advice from folks who’d be right there among a parade of my best LwL counsel over time.
I’ll try not to repeat any of that – I’ll just spit out my own thoughts which may cross over. I think you know deep down it can’t pan out well and that this leopard can’t change its spots. Those like Lovisa and Mila who say he isn’t thinking of you like you are of him are correct. He may not mean to harm. The love bombing style may just have worked for him over the years without him thinking it through that much. Maybe he is used to having women/people fall at his feet. You have told us as much before.
But how is all this possibly going to work for you? CSC, I really get firsthand how the magnetic pull towards our LOs works, and how that both binds and blinds us to them. But you know really that you need to distance from this guy for yourself. Everything else in terms of decisions for you can be parked for later. But from everything you’ve told us on here, this LO is not a fix for anything. I feel I understand as well as anybody here why wrenching yourself away from LO is hard. But you can do it. NC if it happens is 50% his prerogative, remember.
I’m sorry if any of that is hard to hear. But you’ve got this.
Hi L-A-R 🙂
Thank you for your kind words about my posts, and presence here…(or lack thereof.) In honesty, I feel so pathetic and self-absorbed sometimes, with all of this, that I just don’t trust myself to post or reply…because I worry I will sound as self-obsessed as I feel, and I don’t like to waste other people’s time…or, come across as talking about my own problems when I should be focusing on helping others.
Yes, I believe you are right, that realistically there is not much of a chance for anything other than a fantasy . My LO is…magnetic and handsome. I think he knows it. Even if he pretends not to. I think he gets away with whatever he can…Yes, he likes knowing me. But who knows why. I sure don’t.
I think I used the wrong term when I said lovebombing. Actually, I think it’s more akin to breadcrumbing, with a slight twist of lovebombing. Breadbombing? Lovecrumbing? Those sound about right.
Yes, I do think I need to, as you say “park everything else for later” and distance myself. That is a great way to put it. I may require a 4 story parking garage and a valet for all my non-addressed issues, but…yes.
While I don’t think he’s a bad person, there is this little part of me that would like very much to lash out just a little at him. I guess…I guess I feel so helpless and so…kind of pathetic…about all of this, I keep wishing I could make him feel…I don’t know…sorry…or maybe a way I could play it so I could….feel like I won. There is a small part of me, with all this, that is barbed, and feels very cold, self-protective about all of it. But…I think that may just be a roundabout way of remaining in it. For whatever reason— be it as a distraction, or as a desire…both…? The best thing would be to walk away, and not turn back. It’s very difficult, and I keep coming up with reasons not to, and relapsing…but yes…all of this is my own doing, a situation I keep putting myself in…I am not a victim. I’m doing it. Making that choice. (Gah.)
You are so right. Your honesty is valuable to me, your encouragement and understanding are an huge help, and you are also a great, clear writer. I thank you. 🙂
CSC
Hello all
This site has been a huge and helpful resource for me… I thought I just alone in this situation, and maybe actually going crazy.
Quick intro and info –I am mid 60s, married LO is mid thirties, married… we have been same-job-level office coworkers for about 14 months. Always got along great, desks next to each other…. about 4 months ago I thought I had fallen in a Crush on her ( SO cute, smart, nice… just the whole package ). Well, I am now sure it is a LE… she moved jobs to about 80 feet away from me, still see each other every day. We had become very close friends… she would often call her “best friend” ( still does call me that )… I have found that if I do NOT get to see her / talk to her / touch her ( yes, we have affectionate physical contact… I will casually touch her arms or leg or hands, and some very nice hugs ) that I get almost frantic to go see her… which calms me down. ( no, not in a creepy-stalky way ), We were / are exchanging daily affectionate messages ( she even called me and messaged me when she was home during the Winter break when she was off for 2 weeks )… and now we have started going on long walks alone during lunch breaks
During one walk this week I went with her to buy a cake for her husbands birthday and she next day showed me some pictures of his party, with them kissing.
I pretty much had a little mental “unhappiness” ( although we are really just friends and I am not, I don’t think, jealous ) and sought out another coworker because I REALLY needed a big hug ( which I got from her, and which helped a lot )
Unfortunately this other coworker ( very good friends with LO ) told LO I was feeling ” blue ” and now I have that to deal with today
I have been experiencing horrible emotional pain for the last 3 or 4 weeks
Sorry about the long ramble… not really in my right mind these days
oops- I dont’ think my reply threaded in – sorry I’m putting it here mabye @Dr. L could delete my reply that’s in the wrong spot? :/
Hi @New_To_Limerence
I’m just here checking the amazing replies I got to my own “I am going crazy” post, and saw your plea.
We have similar situations. Very confusing. I would say to you, what I think people are saying to me. (I am having a similar but not-quite-same issue with a man of 30 who is a friend (I’m almost 50).
As @Mila said to me, today…please take care because I’m about to be a bit unfiltered here:
It seems your LO cares a great deal for you and does not want to hurt you. She honestly enjoys you and the attention she gets from you. She’s probably not a bad person…but she is showing you the image of her kissing her husband for a reason. I believe she is trying to tell you she is not available to you in that way. But she is trying to do it in a way that you can absorb privately – not by confronting you. I’m sure she wants to be as kind as possible.
She is young, and may not understand one should not trifle with a person’s emotions in middle age – it is not the same thing for us.
I am so sorry for what you are going through. She should not be allowing this kind of closeness with you – this kind of ambiguity.
But, at the same time – it really sounds like you are going through it. I’m so sorry. You are NOT crazy. This is hard. Very. I am in it right now too, and it is horrible. Like coming off a drug. Possibly worse….since with a drug, you can just go and score. With a person…you are totally powerless.
It is SO hard. You are not crazy. You love a person, it’s unrequited….and there is just enough closeness there to make you FEEL crazy. But I am telling you, you are not. Try to hang on. I am going through it too…and it is awful.
Today, just take one moment, one breath at a time. Tomorrow, maybe time to take a little break and seriously think about spending less time around her…yes, that might hurt and confuse her, but, you can’t go on in a downward spiral – and it does seem like it may be going that way…from what I am hearing?
Sending support,
CSC
Thanks for your reply, and for the re-assurance that I am not going crazy ( it can feel like I am ) , as my name suggests, this kind of “addiction” is new to me ( I now can understand somewhat how a drug addict can feel )
“It seems your LO cares a great deal for you and does not want to hurt you. She honestly enjoys you and the attention she gets from you. She’s probably not a bad person…but she is showing you the image of her kissing her husband for a reason. I believe she is trying to tell you she is not available to you in that way. But she is trying to do it in a way that you can absorb privately – not by confronting you. I’m sure she wants to be as kind as possible.”
Yes, I believe she does care for me ( as a friend ) and would not like to see me hurting. We soon after she started working here bonded as good friends. I care a GREAT deal about her and her well being. I have thought about what my feelings are towards her… the closest I can come is “like a daughter”… NOT in anyway sexual… but very affectionate, and wanting to be close, and comfortable, and involved in her life. If she ( or anyone ) could read my mind regarding my feelings for her ) I don’t think she would feel ” creeped out”
BUT also basically ( in reality ) I am addicted to being around her, it calms me. ( I have told her this, she seems to understand it )
As an aside, I just came from visiting her at her desk, to get some tea from her ( we share food frequently ) to put her at ease that I am no long feeling “blue” and everything is all ok
Hello New_To_Limerence, welcome to our club!
Thank you so much for letting us know that your feelings for your LO feel more father/daughter like than anything else. CSC has some great words of support and encouragement that I don’t want to repeat. I just wanted to let you know that we had another member of our community in the past who also had parental feelings towards his LO. His story is hard to read, but I found it and linked it for you. Your situation is different because your LO is an adult. I don’t know if his story will be relatable because his LO was a child. It was a tough situation for sure. But just in case it will help you make sense of your own situation, I linked it.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/winter-coffeehouse/#comment-50794
Best wishes!
Hi New To Limerence,
I’m just here checking the amazing replies I got to my own “I am going crazy” post, and saw your plea.
We have similar situations. Very confusing. I would say to you, what I think people are saying to me. (I am having a similar but not-quite-same issue with a man of 30 who is a friend (I’m almost 50).
As @Mila said to me, today…please take care because I’m about to be a bit unfiltered here:
It seems your LO cares a great deal for you and does not want to hurt you. She honestly enjoys you and the attention she gets from you. She’s probably not a bad person…but she is showing you the image of her kissing her husband for a reason. I believe she is trying to tell you she is not available to you in that way. But she is trying to do it in a way that you can absorb privately – not by confronting you. I’m sure she wants to be as kind as possible.
She is young, and may not understand one should not trifle with a person’s emotions in middle age – it is not the same thing for us.
I am so sorry for what you are going through. She should not be allowing this kind of closeness with you – this kind of ambiguity.
But, at the same time – it really sounds like you are going through it. I’m so sorry. You are NOT crazy. This is hard. Very. I am in it right now too, and it is horrible. Like coming off a drug. Possibly worse….since with a drug, you can just go and score. With a person…you are totally powerless.
It is SO hard. You are not crazy. You love a person, it’s unrequited….and there is just enough closeness there to make you FEEL crazy. But I am telling you, you are not. Try to hang on. I am going through it too…and it is awful.
Today, just take one moment, one breath at a time. Tomorrow, maybe time to take a little break and seriously think about spending less time around her…yes, that might hurt and confuse her, but, you can’t go on in a downward spiral – and it does seem like it may be going that way…from what I am hearing?
Sending support,
CSC
Hello Lovisa
I thank you for your welcome, and the link you provided.
There is of course a HUGE difference in the situations… my LO is a very strong and highly independent minded, married woman in her mid 30’s. I even feel lucky she “allows” me to be physically protective of her on our walks ( she has gotten used to me watching over her when we cross streets… sounds funny I know, but I like being able to do that for her )
I was doing so well with our close friendship until my brain chemistry seems to have gone out of wack. Now… pretty much endless pain ( except when I am with her ) that I cannot talk to anyone I know about… I have to keep it all inside.
That is… until today, with LwL…. I had no one to talk to about this
I appreciate this site very much, and have been reading though it for weeks
Hello New to Limerence, welcome to LwL. I can relate to what you are going through, as I have gone through this as well. As others have mentioned, exposure to LO is like an addiction, we get hooked to it, seeking it periodically for the highs. Unfortunately, the highs do not last forever, and then we deal with a whole bunch of sad emotions. The low feelings are very hard, but, you will feel better eventually.
If exposure to LO is causing you pain, it may be better to pull back a little, in a gradual manner. It will hurt at first, no contact or low contact is one of the best ways to deal with LE, IMHO.
All the best, and feel better!
🙂 thanks for the reply
NC or LC are not possible ( and truthfully, I enjoy the contact with her as a close friend )
I am looking forward to the Limerence addiction ending, so I can just feel like only a Close Friend again, and not some besotted idiot
@a lot of you here
My paragraphs are all over the place. It’s late and I’m on my phone 😩
I have spoken at length with therapists about why young men, much younger than myself, seem drawn to me.
Part of the reason I don’t think big age gaps work well is because of the whole mummy/daddy thing. Some may want to be mothered or fathered but is that really what a healthy romantic relationship would look like?
I tend to be nurturing and it sounds like those commenting here recently might also be nurturing (and effortlessly hilarious 🤷♀️). But I see those I nurture as children. Maybe that’s a perspective I can’t lose due to having been a teacher.
I had a young guy suddenly change the way he interacted with me. He had always been professional but then I told him I’d ended my relationship and he started acting like a school boy. I felt instinctively he’d broken up with his girlfriend. I didn’t for a minute think he wanted a romantic relationship with me, but I did think he wanted some mothering from someone who wasn’t his mother. I think when that person isn’t your mother you can mistake what you’re feeling. But it’s the way a small child looks in awe at a parent. It is a genuine happiness and even giddiness. But it’s not necessarily romantic. Even if they might be a bit confused about that. Love can be hard to discern (especially when our needs weren’t met as children) which is why we kinda need societal boundaries.
@CSC If I were in a relationship, I’d ask myself why I’d be hiding that from my community. Do you still love your SO?
I’m not someone who believes relationships have to last forever, but I do believe in acting with integrity if you want to remain in one. If you’re in an open relationship, cool, but if not and the roles were reversed, would you be OK with your SO doing the same thing?
I think I wrote above about the person I follow on socials who says ‘stop asking why does he? And start asking why do I?’
Why do you care if he’s flaky or not? Is he someone you’d leave your SO for? Do you think this could ever be a healthy friendship or other…? As someone who was friends with her LO for 20 years before it exploded disastrously, I strongly recommend you don’t put yourself through that turmoil. Although, he was also the one who sparked enormous growth for me, so if you’re one to learn from your mistakes, go all in. It’s a great catalyst for change and will turn you life upside down in the process. I was in agony both mentally and physically for months (I raged myself into debilitating back pain) but I did come out the other side of it a much happier and healthier person.
Last year I came across a breadcrumber. I was single and hadn’t asked for his attention, so wondered what his deal was. But then I thought, this is absolute BS. I simply wouldn’t treat another person that way (if you are certain you did nothing to deserve it) and I deserve better. If you draw a line in the sand and think about whether or not you’d treat someone else that way, it can make it easier to go ‘nope’.
CMC,
You are right on all counts, up here.
I am having a lot of trouble remaining with my SO, who is lovely, truly. But…I am not really *alive* when I am with him. What I am, is safe. He’s not a very expressive or passionate person. He’s a reliable person (which is worth a lot in this world). I do love him, but, the way you would love…oh my god, this is going to sound awful….but I will be honest, so you can understand….I love him the way you would love a very old, dear animal. I love him with a closeness, a kind of pity…a tenderness that borders on excruciating….the thought of hurting him is like the thought of hurting the dearest, most undeserving, sweet soul….
But, I cannot deny, part of me is not being fed…and it is starving. The part of me that is fierce and fun and wild is not fed. And I love that part of myself. It seems it has decided to rip me up from the inside out…instead of just withering away…
And you are correct, I am not behaving well. I am behaving like a liar and almost a cheater — basically a cheater, emotionally… and I know that is wrong. So wrong.
But…I am also clear that current LO is NOT going to solve any of it. I’m lying to him, too, making myself available, when really, I am not.
WTF I am doing. All I am doing is wrong, so wrong. It clearly is coming from somewhere deep down, that has gotten all twisted around, so knotted up, it’s coming out in weird ways….I’m turning into a dissembler and a liar…
I think after reading everyone’s advice here, it is clear, there is no easy solution. But there is a solution – I must chop off what I can – to carry less mental weight. I have to go NC with this intoxicating LO. I will have zero closure, just a vaccuum where he used to be. (As for LO, he won’t really care I’m gone. He won’t pine away. I’ll be just one more weird situation that happened across his young life.) Later, when I am stronger, I must not ignore what is happening with my SO any longer… that thought terrifies me. I have zero experience in breaking people’s hearts.
But…I’m going to have to face it. Or, I’ll just keep relapsing, either with this LO or with anyone else I fixate on…sigh.
I’m ashamed and never saw this for myself. But here I am. I always thought I was strong. I am so weak, not strong at all.
I’m sorry about your breadcrumber – and it’s interesting you have younger men take this approach with you, too…I swear we are not imagining it!….and yes, it is utterly confusing…but, I am letting it be a distraction, not merely a confusion…and that is why I am where I am.
thank you so much for taking the time to write – you have clearly got a lot of experience with similar dynamics….I so appreciate your perspective.
🙂 CSC
I’m curious about the analogy you used with your SO. Is he older than you?
Yes, ten years. But he acts, much of the time, much older. He’s almost 60. He is a calm, quiet sort, while I am more outgoing and energized.
@CSC
In my opinion, this LO and even your SO aren’t all that relevant in this. I have mentioned these guys (link below) on here before. The work I did with their journals was the most profound inner work I’ve ever done and I can’t recommend it highly enough.
I did a workbook called Dark Night of the Soul. The way you describe your SO and how starved your soul is feeling, I wonder if you might be experiencing a dark night of the soul. There are plenty of other workbooks to choose from. It’s supposed to take one month although they acknowledge it can take longer. It took me a year just to open it then several months to work through it. But each time I did an activity I felt lighter and more able to see my ‘self’. I started to really look forward to doing each activity and I’d make finding time for it a priority. If I ever had enough alone time, I’d be doing it again now. I think I’m in need of a refresher. Each activity doesn’t take long but the floods of tears afterwards meant I couldn’t leave the house for a while!
https://lonerwolf.com/spiritual-journey/
Despite being from the same country, I don’t know these people at all. But I think they have their heads screwed on right and they offer help that was so much more in-depth than I could achieve with multiple therapists. I think if you do something like that, you’ll get closer to ‘self’ and then you might be able to fill that void with self love instead of moving on to the next LE.
Whatever you decide to do, I hope you find what’s missing for you 💙
Thank you @CMC
Whoa, that is very interesting. I really enjoyed reading about the “dark night of the soul” and yes, I think you are onto something with that recommendation, it’s definitely the kind of experience I feel I am having, the depth of it – it’s different.
I have been working with my journal, these days. But, I haven’t had prompts, and was actually thinking I should find some, so my writing becomes more purposeful, now that I am used to doing it. (Moving beyond just writing whatever is flooding out)…
So, I really appreciate this resource. And thank you for seeing what I am trying to get at – and I would really love to look back on this time as one of raw beauty and transformation than one of hiding. I’m so glad you found looking within, and using that moment of struggle to learn about yourself, so valuable…it really helps to hear that. It sounds like it was wonderfully transformational (and cathartic!) for you.
🙂 CSC
no. no no no no. We have an all hands on deck situation, people.
S.O.S.
A text has been received. Coffee has been posited by LO.
OH NO. NOOOOO
I can’t feel my hands, and I think all my teeth are about to crack.
I’m sorry. I’m sorry for all of this.
But, also, older ladies, I have some proof here. for whatever that is worth. 🙂
Yikes! CSC, I’m having a little trouble following everything. Does your LO think that you are single?
Lovisa…
You are a laser. I have not lied about my status, but I have not mentioned it. On purpose. I’ve…I’ve…witheld information. I’m 20 years older than him. I never thought it would matter. That’s still no excuse, though. It’s not good.
I’ve got too much drama, made so many horrible moves. I should not be on here. I should be on a blog for actual mental patients, liars, losers. I’m sorry. 🙁
…good question, though. haha
CSC, don’t be so hard on yourself. You are correct that you are compromising your integrity, but you can redirect and do the right thing. Also, can we please address that you are stringing your LO along? That is not fair. I noticed that you didn’t have children and so it’s possible that your instincts are different than mine, but I wonder if you instinctively want to lift the rising generation. I’ll try to explain what I mean. I feel a mentor responsibility to the generations who came after me. It’s somewhat conscious, but mostly instinctive. Is there any part of you that wants your LO to thrive and live a good life even if that means you can’t be part of it?
Seriously, no judgement here, but I have a lot of concern for where this is going. I don’t want to see you hurt yourself, your SO or your LO.
Hi CSC,
Based on your descriptions, I just want to add one comment here:
If you truly do NOT mind being just a NUMBER on your LO’s vanity-fuel matrix or his romance-winning list, then go for his coffee or whatever.
You WILL regret for NOT appreciating your current SO, and may lose him after you lose yourself….
Best of luck!
@Snow
Wise words. I know little of how he operates. If he takes advantage, or anything. After I help him with what I said I’d help with, I’ll distance myself…I think I can manage that. I do feel I should do what I offered, provide the help I said I would, since it involves his career, and his art, and as an artist myself I believe one does not mess around where art/career is concerned. But, outside of that, anything I do would be very wrong. And may not be a factor at all…it may be an overactive imagination on my part…but…still, it’d be very wrong to take it any further, even if I had the chance.
I appreciate you. And your honesty. Thank you.
As someone that can’t ever seem to get in the ballpark of getting close to some coffee. With anyone who actually wants to drink some coffee with me for that matter, I think you should meet Dude for some coffee.. It’s just coffee right? Go love on some coffee with a coffee loving friend. It’s just coffee.
All I really want is some coffee with a good friend, and I never seem to get that coffee or the friend to go with me, to drink the coffee together and share a laugh or two. I say go for the damn coffee!! It’s just coffee. Nothing more has to come of it.. It’s coffee. Just freakin coffee.. Being shared by 2 grown adults that get along and like coffee.. It sounds so simple doesn’t it?? Everyone loves coffee. Coffee comes in like ten thousand and one varieties. You can drink it hot or drink it cold. With or without ice.. Coffee is lovely year round and even better when shared with a friend. Enjoy the company of someone over a cup of coffee.. Infact have more than one cup. Have two cups and drink one for me.. Because dammit I actually wouldn’t mind drinking some coffee right now. Even with a new Lwl friend like you CSC. Afterall, it’s just coffee. Nothing more than that and some thoughtful conversation with a good friend. Something I would just about die for right now.
Personally I think wherever we’re going in the afterlife and once we arrive there, we’re all gonna take a look back on our crazy lives and say, “you know what?? That was some pretty good coffee..
☕☕
MJ
There was a recent study saying that people who drink up to three cups of coffee a day seem to live longer!
I raise my cup of coffee to you☕️☕️❤️
Thank you MJ for that ‘Ode to Coffee’ that I read as I sip my morning joe.
I’m meeting a couple of old friends for dinner tonight and I will be sure to cherish and appreciate their company!
I hope that despite some setbacks you can keep your mind and your heart open. Invite someone surprising (not a love interest) for coffee next time, heck why not start your own coffee club at work or wherever…
“people who drink up to three cups of coffee a day seem to live longer!
I raise my cup of coffee to you☕️☕️❤️”
This is the sort of study I like! There is hope for me yet ☕️☕️☕️
And I just had to look up what “Morning Joe” is. These ‘tasting notes’ always amuse me … “A bold, dark, complex coffee with notes of baking chocolate and dried fruit”. Dried fruit in coffee – like, really??
I’m really glad you’re all enjoying your coffee right now. This is the Coffeehouse so we should always be gathering here with good friends over coffee.. And good coffee too might I add, made with the finest of beans
@Mila, thank you Dear.
You enjoy that coffee today. You deserve it..
Proof for what?
Still could be that he just wants to learn your artwork. Don’t overtake yourself (don‘t know if you say that in English).
I guess you are not in the frame of mind to decline the coffee and go NC? Or are you? Would be for the best, actually!
If not:
I recommend going for coffee with a plan. Main thing to accomplish: mention your SO. Second, keep it all in the friendzone and observe him, is he flirting, or is he just being friendly?
Third, he will want to talk about you teaching him.
I would beforehand decide for yourself: do you really want to get involved into teaching this guy artwork? Really? Won’t it be an agony from start to end and prolong limerence, even get you into compromising situations, you could lose your SO etc? Is there any chance this teaching business will end for you in a good way? I don’t believe so. If you agree, I would think beforehand about how to tell him that you won’t do it and whom you could recommend.
If you still want to teach him, ask yourself if you still hope that something romantic will happen between you. And then play it through- you really want to lose your SO or cheating on him?
If not, it’s up to you to firmly keep boundaries, set a place (at home with your SO nearby?) where nothing can happen etc.
You definitely cannot teach him without your SO knowing about it, that’s the beginning of trouble. If you feel you cannot tell SO, just don’t do it, period.
I feel danger coming, sorry, that’s why I go on being blunt.
Just don’t do anything hasty, and observe for a bit. Maybe, not in the surroundings of gym etc, you might see some traits you don’t like. And you cannot go on letting him believe you are single. You owe it to him, your SO and yourself to be clear about it.
Sorry, I realize I sound almost rude, I’m just really alarmed…
Please calm down and have a think before answering his text, ok?
Wish you all the best and a clear mind!
No – you don’t sound rude @Mila !
This is difficult stuff, and honestly, I would not be coming to LwL for platitudes. I know others here really do understand, and when something is this hard, I think people who are honest are some of the very best people to surround oneself with. I appreciate you, and no, not harsh. Real. 🙂 And I am grateful for your stable gaze on this!
@Mila @Lovisa
Oh my goodness, thank heavens I was on here when this all happened. You two are helping me more than I can say. I don’t want all the help I’ve already received here, to be for naught.
@Lovisa
Yes, there is an element of that. I genuinely like him, and remember when others helped me, in my career (I make a living with my art). I genuinely do want to show others how to do what I’ve done…it’s something I often offer to help with. But yes, my motives…they are less than what they should be. I am compromised, here. Severely. In all honesty, I will probably help him. BUT, I am not going to do so right away. I am going to calmly help, and even encourage. But, whatever else…you are right. I cannot hurt both SO and LO. I guess…I guess I never thought I’d have a situation like this at all….BUT…..
@Mila is Right!
What “situation”??? There isn’t one. I am losing it over something I offered to show someone, which they have asked to learn. Mila, you are correct. I am not at all in a situation where I have someone losing himself over me. I need to remember that.
I, luckily, will be away for several days and not at liberty to meet at all. So, that is a godsend. I will use that time to try not to spiral, and to anticipate a benign meeting, in a VERY public and un-romantic place, wherein I provide technical information (and try not to slide off my chair.) haha.
But seriously – you are both right. What I am doing is totally morally wrong, and I will need to face that, so I don’t hurt anyone. If *I* get hurt…well, at this point, I think I kind of earned it.
Again, thank you. I didn’t expect him to reach out, like I’ve said, he has a history of being an utter flake. So, I’m sorry for the unanticipated, additional drama.
with profound gratitude,
CSC
Just tell him you‘ve got an SO!
That’s absolutely non-negotiable ☝🏻
@Mila
I will try. I will. I can’t promise I’ll be able to do it. :/ but I’ll do my best. I’ll try. I’ll at least let him know I’m not available. I may not go into detail about how unavailable, yet. But, I’ll make it clear. You’re right. I don’t want to hurt either of them. Maybe it won’t come to that. As of now this is all in my mind. If it threatens to bleed into reality, I will do what’s necesssary. Even if it’s horrible. I’m going to take my time with this so I can screw my head on and not approach it from an altered state…which I am clearly in, now.
Hi CSC,
but what do you think do you gain by not telling him about SO? Maybe some part of you hopes he might make a move if he doesn’t know you‘ve got an SO? And then?
Sorry to be stubborn, I just want you to be completely honest with yourself.
I don’t mean telling him straight up that you are unavailable. I mean just saying something like „yes, I went there with my boyfriend/husband too“ or „that’s what my boyfriend/husband thinks too“, something like that, it’s not something unbelievably hard? Whatever you hope/expect of contact with this guy and whatever he‘s hoping/planning for, you owe him the truth that you‘ve got an SO. You should at least play fair if you expect him to be fair with you, shouldn’t you?
CSC,
soon you will wish you wouldn’t have written here;) I‘m not judging, you know. I do understand! I just want you to admit to yourself what you expect/ hope from coffee and teaching, and if you won’t tell him about SO or SO about the teaching, then I want you to notice that and ask yourself. Because if you honestly just want to follow up on your promise there’s no reason not to let him know you‘ve got an SO, that’s all..
*ask yourself, why
@Mila
There is no fooling you, any of you. 🙂
It’s not that hiding SO would help me get him. Because I know I can’t get him. I can’t get him, because it would be too wrong. I would hurt SO. I don’t really have my freedom, I am involved with SO.
But, I don’t want to hurt LO either. And I don’t want him to feel like a fool. If he is interested in me (which is a huge if) I would rather have him think he made his own decision, and stop liking me because there isn’t much to like.
So, while I may tell him (if it comes up) that I am not at liberty to be in a relationship, I’m a bad choice, going through a rough patch, am not into boys, have a weird fetish that only a block of swiss cheese and a vaccuum cleaner will satisfy….whatever…I may not drop the Boyfriend Card. You are being honest with me, and I appreciate it….At full disclosure — at my peril haha– those are my reasons, even if they’re awful and self-serving…and dishonest.
I am always worried I’ll hurt other people, that’s why I get into these messes. I want to do for myself, and end up not confronting anything, or anyone, because I’m scared to hurt others.
I’ll figure this out. I’m going to be away for the next few days, into next week, so I can’t meet him even if I wanted to. And, I can’t stand texting, so I will NOT be getting into a back and forth with him, even if it could go that way.
@Mila
…this just came to mind so I’ll note it…
“I am always worried I’ll hurt other people, that’s why I get into these messes. I want to do for myself, and end up not confronting anything, or anyone, because I’m scared to hurt others.”
If I really look at it – I am scared to hurt others, because when I grew up, the way I grew up, if I hurt my father, he would hurt us back. And then, he would threaten to leave. That was unthinkable. Our survival, my Mom’s and mine, felt very tied to his presence.
My Mom never felt she could make it without him. He had a temper that was off the charts. If he felt hurt, he would hurt back, and it would hurt worse. So, that’s probably the root of my problem, never confronting anyone…because it’s literally at the base of my survival instinct, linked.
Hi CSC,
There‘s some heavy stuff surfacing now? I’m like you in being scared to get hurt back, I hate confrontation and conflict.
Also, it seems that your relationship with SO isn’t what you‘d like it to be.
LO seems to be an outlet and distraction.
It’s good that you recognize it, many people don’t!
What I don’t understand is why it would hurt your LO less to hide an SO and to say you are not into boys or whatever you think of saying than just saying you are in relationship. What’s hurtful about that?
I‘d think having an SO is the least hurtful reason to be unavailable since it’s got nothing to do with any traits/behavior of LO and he doesn’t have to ruminate why he wasn’t good enough. (In case he‘s really interested, which stands to discussion).
Sometimes it helps to tone all a bit down. As MJ says, in the end it’s a cup of coffee, maybe just enjoy and observe?
I say it like that because I know for a fact, that if the opportunity ever came up, and I actually found myself at a Dunkin or a Starbucks or some trendy little fancy Coffeehouse with my actual Lady Friend, it would be exclusively for friendship over that coffee. Infact she would insist on it. (Never might what all her crazy eye contact, apologies and needs for affirmation are about. That doesn’t qualify over a coffee date)
My limerent-like desire to move the needle is not on the agenda and as such I need to respect that. If I go into it with that mindset, my heart will probably get stepped on again, and that’s my own fault for allowing it, but at least I got good cup of coffee out of it..
What I’m saying is proceed with caution and do so while keeping in mind the reason you might be going. You’re just friends. Sharing conversation over coffee. Keep it at that level and enjoy.
@MJ
I really hope I’m replying in the right thread. It gets confusing.
Hahahahah thank you for making me laugh about the coffee, the god-damned coffee! I love coffee and I love getting caffeinated, and god damnit I’m going to go and have a coffee bought for me by my friend (which is what he is). I’m going to help him with his young life, and help him with his art, and his career. I’m going to keep my yoga-lady cool, and just enjoy having coffee with a young man, in total calm.
I am going to enjoy myself and not treat this as a date. It isn’t! I’m making it into one but it is not.
If he tries the thing with us touching palms again, though, or if he physically touches me in any way, I’m going to need an ambulance. Haha
Just kidding. But seriously, you are right. And your lightheartedness is so appreciated. Thanks for bringing me down to earth, and bringing me a big smile.
:)) CSC
@Mila
Yeah, I have some very big, very gnarly things I need to address in my life, LO, SO or not. And I am hoping to at least use this intense time, with my LO situation and my SO situation, to dig deeper and learn about myself. It’s been a catalyst…as many other limerents seem to say about their own episodes…
It just occurred to me as I mindlessly inhaled half of a delicious pizza, that my LO could pull the same move. He could, (and might!) throw the “girl I’m seeing” or “girl I’m interested in” card down, and that would be that for ol’ CSC. Haha
Of course, if he does, I’ll just have a very well-cloaked meltdown, and proceed like I am totally normal, and not at all riled by that revelation.
Anyway, yes, all this means, I will proceed with extreme caution. For my own sake…I could easily see all my fantasies evaporate, and might…and honestly, kind of hope they do.
Ok off to forage for dessert. 🙂
CSC
@CSC,
Enjoy your coffee date.
I’m going to raise a cup of coffee for you..
(Next time I’m actually getting coffee..) ☕☕
CSC,
I just remembered: I didn’t know my xLO was married. Maybe he assumed I knew. And after initially meeting, we were in contact via text. After some flirting it took him a couple of months to drop his wife into the conversation. I had suspected it but it still floored me somewhat. Funnily, after that admission he ramped up the texting. And not to seem shocked or upset, I responded in enthusiastically friendly kind! It was such a show… But it’s good to be prepared for the casual “girlfriend drop”.
Good luck with your coffee!
CSC,
Hmm… I’m not sure how to answer here or which string to pull. That would be a very difficult and tempting situation for me as well!
You talked previously about needing to “win” at this game with him, because you were frustrated with his behavior. I can understand that. You sound a little euphoric right now. As I see it, you’ve won. And will this euphoria continue? Likely not. You might have reached the peak of it, and it will be downhill (in terms of feelings of elation) from here. So take your time and savor it if you will. Don’t rush in answering. You can answer when your head is clear. Mila gives good advice, perhaps let that marinate and figure out what aligns with your values.
@Trifles, yeah. I now need to come off the cloud and deal realistically with everything my predilection for fantasies has created….oof.
I am not euphoric right now. I was for a second. Now I’m filled with dread. But dread is better than despair. I was in despair. But…just by being helped here, yesterday, before all of this, I feel more secure in that what I’m doing is futile, and actually hurtful to me, my SO, and maybe even my LO. I am ok being hurt, I’ll get through it. But, I can’t drag others into it. Whatever is going on with me…I have to contain the damage.
I’ve gone through a lot. Everyone has. But, my backstory is one of…I guess I’d call it emotional and even sexual anorexia. My LO has brought out a side of me that it’s hard to put “back in the box.” My problems are many…
I grew up in a home that required me to be very controlled in a very volatile situation, was emotionally abused to the point it was frightening, often. I am very good at containment. Unfortunately, I sought a situation to keep myself safe, then contained all the feelings I think I would have had, if I had been emotionally healthy…I did not allow myself to love, to risk, I didn’t even understand what it meant.
I probably still don’t. But, I’m an adult now, and am not a victim any longer. I have the ability to steer my life, if I am willing. I have done the best I can to keep myself safe. And, to try and be a good partner. But, I can’t deny I’m struggling.
Still, I don’t want to hurt anyone the way I’ve been hurt. And I will figure out how I can just…get out of this without doing too much damage. I’ve been on this weird quest to come to the next place in my life for many months now…an imperfect journey for sure. It’s awful, but I’ll admit it. I’m the problem, for sure.
No, you’re not ‘the problem’. You’re figuring yourself out, and figuring out what you want in life. That’s not just reserved for 20-somethings! I can relate to so much of what you’re feeling even though we have different backgrounds.
I think you said yourself that even if you were available or if you were to leave your SO, then LO would be a bad choice. Keep that in mind. He’s just a catalyst for some soul-searching you need to do. It’s tough but that’s what you’ll make lemonade with.
Trifles, thank you.
I feel undeserving of the help and support people are so kindly offering here…thank you for giving me your grace and understanding.
Yeah, if you had told me years ago that I would be in this place, mentally, I would have laughed. I was always the one who somehow held it together, “knew herself” and had everything under control. Now, obviously, major cracks have formed. I guess it’s true that one can’t hold things in forever.
I am trying to navigate this time in my life, I do feel I am at some kind of crossroads. This is my third (and worst) limerence in 3 years…so, it really is time to address this, and I’m sure that means living a more honest life, with my Self. It’s not what I’m used to. I’m making a lot of mistakes. And being very irresponsible. Very. And I do know better. I should not justify it. I have no justification for hurting anyone else, with my own hurt. Not now that I’m mindful of what I’m actually doing.
I’m determined to make my life a better one, getting through this, and to be the person I would like to be, but first and foremost, I need to become an honest one.
I appreciate your kindness.
Hey Dr L, the thumb nail on your latest video is confusing. Are you going to list 7 types of people who bewitch me? Maybe it’s 7 celebrities? I haven’t watched the video yet, I thought I should let you know that you might want to add a word after 7 or drop the number 7.
Great video! I understand now that I watched your video.
CSC,
That’s quite the day you’ve had!
A lot of ideas and advice have been thrown your way here on LwL. I debated whether or not to weigh in, but do want to.
You seem strongly in the ‘altered state of mind’ of the LE at the moment (I call it lim-brain). Let me be honest – I know that state of mind all too well. As my LE has progressed (marinated? / curdled?), my exec brain has slowly regained some more control. It is getting on for 2 years now. Fairly soon after it started, my exec brain lost the plot on everything bar disclosure and crossing physical lines. Other boundaries that I had held with her for years were just bulldozed to the ground. It stayed like that for a solid 10 months before I got back a semblance of sense, and since then the exec has crept slowly back in. While the lim-brain ran the show, I could rationalise basically anything away that I wanted to. When I first shouted out on LwL (May 2024) was when I began to make progress. It is still up and down. My feelings for LO remain almost as strong as at that point, but my control mechanisms have corrected a lot.
Why am I telling you that? First, to tell you that I ‘get’ where you are with the temptations of your LE. I really, really do. If the lim-brain in you is too strong and you go ahead and have the coffee, arrange the teaching etc, I won’t moralise or judge you. But I’m also telling you because I want you to be constantly aware that whatever options are open to you, know that you are processing them with the lim-brain. Just keep that awareness top of mind.
I have got a lot wrong and I am still not out of the woods, but I am past the stage of being ‘one bad move away from uprooting up to three lives’. I have found out more about the real person inside my LO in the spell since the ‘peak’ – she has slowly revealed more of her whole self (or maybe I have just been more open to seeing it). I am not one of the ones here who says everything between my SO and me is perfect. But with everything taken into consideration, I am glad I didn’t uproot my relationship with her for a punt at LO because of something my lim-brain told me was right at the time (there is still a part of me that still doubts it, cards on table, but it is outweighed by the part that doesn’t – I could not trust the lim-brain to make the right decision). And I got lucky in a way that nothing got spotted and reported back to SO. I am nowadays honest and over the table with SO about my contact level / time spent with LO, as I figure that’s better than her finding out via a leak. That’s not always easy to navigate but it is better than my duplicity of days gone by.
And one other thing – please stop saying you’re the problem or unworthy. Life has chucked all of us curveballs. You have been very brave to share them. But they don’t make you mental or unworthy – they are just part of life’s rich but tricky tapestry.
Solidarity in whatever happens next for you ✊️Keep talking to us 📣
CSC,
I pondered what I’d said here more after I saw CMC’s reply to you.
I think I was too harsh on the ‘lim-brain’ in what I said last night. We’d do well to acknowledge (and I think you have done) that the lim-brain has a reason for being with us. It may be an altered state of mind, but something has made it alter. It is NOT an irrational beast that ALWAYS must be silenced.
The solution to every limerence related problem is not invariably “avoid the LO totally because you have an SO”. The background circumstances to how you got there are also very important.
What I think you’re strong at is looking into the background – what is it about yourself that lands you here? What do you need to be a better and happier self? These are rhetorical – I’m not asking you to pick through it all again, I’m just saying I can see just how much you’re on this journey already by the stuff you’ve already said.
Limerence is always more about that, than about ‘SO vs LO’. About the self, at the end of the day
My LE has caused me pain but has also been the catalyst for positive changes in my life. I am a more authentic version of myself through being around, observing and having my esteem boosted by LO. That’s the other side of my story. I don’t regret the decision to let her closer to me (some days I’d say I do, more days not). I wouldn’t change what I did that much given my time again.
That’s what I didn’t capture in my message to you last night, where I was all “exec brain right, lim brain wrong”. It isn’t as simple as that.
At some point, if we want to stay the course with SO, of course we need to apply the brakes with LO. But that doesn’t necessarily have to be applying the brakes while the car is in neutral. A couple of other posters seem to have come around to “go for the coffee but go in mindful / careful”, and so have I, if that’s what you feel you want to do. I stand by my earlier points that this LO can’t solve deeper matters, but you already know that.
Hi L-A-R,
No, I don’t get offended if someone thoughtfully and honestly shares their views with me. I didn’t take offense at all to your lim-brain original reply! I actually thought about it quite a bit today. And I think it’s such a good nickname for that state. I think it helps to be able to quickly label it with a nickname…
I think you are totally right and that looking at this similarly to a drugged or altered state is key.
I will go for coffee with him. I want to. I want to help him. I love my work, and I am always happy to help another artist by sharing what I know. BUT, I will not make any moves. This will be a help, and possibly fact-finding mission, but nothing more, for me. It will be hard, but I think I can do it. The more I think about it, though I have wanted him, physically, desperately…an amount of desire that frankly freaks me out a bit… I am already starting to feel like, really, that cannot happen. Physically, I feel my desire waning. Just slightly – but enough.
Yet, I can feel my brain still wanting to be with him. That being said, I think I’m in a safer zone with it than I was. So, I will proceed, but with mucho caution.
I do believe my limerence with this person is serving an important role for me at an important moment in my existence. I see him as a door. A door to another side, another space, for me.
But, a door is a door, you walk through it, and it doesn’t come with you. I think that’s why I see him as a door. I don’t see him as…a companion. I see him as a portal.
A portal to a me I would like to be – dimensions of me that I have never known or explored. And that is not HIM, that is ME. He brings it out, but it is not him. It is me.
So, I hear what you are saying. Please do not worry about causing offense to me, you are very thoughtful, and understanding – and experienced! And clearly, you have thought a great deal about how to get through your own episodes…and how to handle them mindfully.
I appreciate your care so much! And, I understand what you mean about not regretting your own experiences. It’s so different from just a crush…just a heartbreak. Limerence seems like – well, I think the term “episode” is a good one.
I will update on progress…but wanted to make sure I put your mind at ease if I could!
🙂 CSC
CSC,
I was not offended or worried – panic ye not. But thank you. I just thought on reflection that my first message was a bit one-sided about “lim-brain bad”, whereas in reality it has been both good and bad.
“BUT, I will not make any moves. This will be a help, and possibly fact-finding mission, but nothing more, for me.”
Have you thought what you’ll do if *he* makes any moves?
“Physically, I feel my desire waning. Just slightly – but enough”
That’s interesting. The physical desire comes and goes for me. It definitely presents less on average for me than it used, but that’s more because I have strangled it as a realistic possibility than because it isn’t still there deep down. For me more of the desire is emotional – I just want to be close to her; when I’m not, I feel anxious or like I’m being a bad friend. But my rational mind takes over these days and knows that it is in nobody’s interest if I am too overbearing.
“But, a door is a door, you walk through it, and it doesn’t come with you. I think that’s why I see him as a door. I don’t see him as…a companion. I see him as a portal.”
The portal is a lovely analogy. I’m really interested in what’s on the other side of the portal for you, as I think you’re very self-aware of what you need to have the more authentic life you want.
“And clearly, you have thought a great deal about how to get through your own episodes…and how to handle them mindfully.”
I try hard, but I still mess up sometimes 😂
CSC and LaR,
Cutting in here: treating a human being as an unmoved door is a grave mistake…. They have feelings and can move and run ahead of you, or knock you down, depending on the person….
I used an address as the “door”….
Snow,
That’s partly why I asked CSC had she thought what she’d do if the guy makes moves. People go off script.
A person may seem like the door but (per our discussions about ET and about MFF on the other thread), they aren’t. Sometimes it can’t stop us seeing it that way for a time though – they are kind of in the right place at the right time, or the wrong place at the right time, depending on your perspective!
LaR,
I totally agree with you here. But the difference among those three dynamics is:
1. there was no in-person or even written reply to my monologues, but you two have in-person contacts with respective LOs.
2. Unlike you both, I do not have a SO — on the other side of the LE rope; I could afford allowing myself to be “spun” a little out of boredom or seriously search my inner Self through a non-reciprocal LO, could you freely do that?
Snow,
Hmm, you’re right about yourself – you did nothing wrong with him, as you never had ‘intent’ – wasn’t trying to convey that you did.
Me – if I take a selfish personal perspective it has mostly (not wholly) been good for my growth as a person, what I have allowed to happen. If I take a more moral/SO’s perspective then yes I have overstepped lines. If I take MFF’s, I don’t believe I have or she would be very quick to tell me, trust me. That girl stands for no messing! It’s complicated.
All three of them are different as yes I had/have an SO, but also a very established previous relationship with the LO, expectations of dynamics between us built over a long time, etc. I have spun my own head with it for sure but don’t think I’ve harmed the LO.
CSC doesn’t have that basis with the person – those “priors”.
So we’re comparing apples, pears and oranges a bit here, aren’t we??
LaR,
Yes, it’s like comparing an apple, a pear and an orange among us three.
But I have to confess that I was not as moral as your MFF— in the last part of the lengthy LE, I wanted and imagined to do “something wrong” — my DNA drives was not dead, but realistically and psychologically I simply could Not. All my previous traumas stood in the way, so little need even to resist the temptation…
CSC
I regret the way I treated LO because I put her in a bad place. She knew I was married and here I was lavishing her with special treatment. While your situation is different I wonder if he’d pull back knowing you were married?
LO was very gracious to me but in hindsight I can see ways where she corrected my behavior because I was married. It wasn’t directly verbal “scolding” but it was an indirect way to correct my course. That’s a bad place to put a person in. And I’m ashamed I did that to her.
Perhaps him knowing you are committed might do the same for you until you can get through this LE. If you can’t bring yourself to do right by SO, do right by LO. It’s not the right reason to do so but it might bring you the right results.
Hi @Adam,
Yeah, you’re probably right. I’m going to have a LOT of trouble indicating I’m unavailable. A LOT. But, I should do so. We will see if I can. If I can’t, I know I’ll only be digging myself in deeper…not a good idea!
I just got back from several days away. It felt so good to be so far away from LO, and when I think of seeing him again, now, of getting coffee with him, even tho technically it’s what I want… I feel…well..while I feel a sense of longing, I also feel very afraid, and very full of…dread. Because there is so much I have hidden, and because he may have hidden things from me too. I’m freaking out a bit.
I feel like…so much is going on inside me, and to him, I’m probably just a nice creative person/resource he’ll have some coffee with. I feel unready. I may leave it a couple more weeks. Just the thought of needing to pick out something to wear is too much for me right now. Then again, maybe I’ll just show up without any preparation and that will have to be the “honesty” baby step for me. (?)
I am reading “The Untethered Soul” right now – in an attempt to understand what “letting go” really means. It’s been helpful and illuminating. I am seeing that…what is happening to me…it’s that I’m not being honest, I’m hiding my light, squashing my energy, in lots of ways. And, LO is probably the least of my problems…though he is the most delicious of my problems…
Your experience with LO realizing you were unavailable is really fascinating -thank you for sharing those specific details with me. While I am not married – I am in a significant live-in relationship…and yes, I do feel ashamed that I haven’t been strong enough to be honest. With anyone..including myself.
I’ll be working on that. 🙂
CSC
I finally saw LO #3 a couple of weeks ago after nearly four months. I’m not sure what to make of it, but I keep on reminding myself that she has basically rejected me. I think it’s helping a bit, so that is something of a “win” I suppose.
Without disclosing too much, I was at an event she was at. She was ignoring me, but she wasn’t sitting near me. I tried to catch her attention at one point, but she seemed to be content to ignore me so I did the same. I was hurt, but I didn’t really make an attempt to talk to her either. After a couple of hours, I had a few drinks and I decided it was silly to continue ignoring her, so I went over to say hello. I should mention that my teenage daughter was my “date” for this event since I was told my wife wasn’t welcome (it’s complicated). I introduced my daughter, and I could see a lightbulb go off above my LO’s head and her best friend’s head as well. Her friend said, “Oh…OH!” The friend then told us to sit with them, so we did for a bit. I didn’t get much of a chance to talk to my LO, but she seemed alright with me (there was always someone between her and me). I believe they thought I was there with a much younger woman as my actual date, but I cleared that up.
We were all up dancing for a while together. My daughter told me my LO looked over at us and smiled at one point like she was happy to see a dad and his daughter up dancing together. But then she left without saying goodbye while I was up at the bar. That did disappoint me a bit. So, it was a bit of a mixed bag overall. God she looked gorgeous that night! Classy as always though.
My friend and his wife believe she’s only holding back on me because she has solid morals and doesn’t want to lead on a married man (she even told me that once). I still can’t forget how she refused my Facebook friend request and she hardly ever comes out with us though. I don’t want to put her in an awkward position, and all I want for now is just friendship. My friend has speculated that she may even be protecting herself from getting hurt. I know she’s friends with other guys who are married and in relationships, so why not me?
I would never turn her into a home wrecker or the other woman. I still very much want to separate from and divorce my wife, but she’s completely delusional in thinking the marriage is salvageable. I maintain that I wouldn’t leave my wife for another woman, and I would have a gap of a few months at least before I start dating. I would only leave my wife because my marriage isn’t working for me, NOT for another woman, but LO #3 would be a nice incentive, especially if we had a nice (but platonic) friendship going. I still can’t stop thinking about how well we get along when we can talk one-on-one and how she stood beside me for an unusually long time that night almost two years ago like she wanted me to talk to her. I’ll never forget that night or that special night four months ago when we hung out together most of the night, much of it just the two of us, watching two bands play their entire shows.
Still, I’ve told a few people I am not going to fixate on someone who wouldn’t piss on me if I was on fire. Regardless of the reasons, she is rejecting me in some ways. It’s helping me to some extent, but then I go and look at pictures of her from two weeks ago. I suppose I should stop that and resign myself to the fact that she’s only a peripheral part of our friend group and really not a core member. She has other friends and other interests, and I really do need to find a way out of my horrible marriage before thinking about anyone else.
I’m not a fan of divorce, but your situation causes me to question my beliefs, Vicarious Limerent. It would be interesting to hear your SO’s perspective.
I have some thoughts about what you wrote.
“ my teenage daughter was my “date” for this event since I was told my wife wasn’t welcome ”
I am very curious about why your wife wasn’t welcome at the event.
“ I know she’s [LO] friends with other guys who are married and in relationships, so why not me?”
Based on what you’ve shared, I think your LO keeps some distance from you because she feels threatened. Let me explain. She doesn’t want to be the other woman or a home wrecker. That is what she fears with you. Her values are threatened by you. You aren’t the threat. I think she likes you, it’s the situation that is threatening.
I think Lovisa is right, she might feel that you like her a bit more than just friends, who knows, maybe she likes you too, maybe not, but the main thing is that she wouldn’t ever get involved with a married man and also thinks exactly the same as you:
„ and I really do need to find a way out of my horrible marriage before thinking about anyone else.“
I think it’s pure common sense that she keeps distance. Might be that she‘s attracted, might be that she doesn’t want to give false hope, but my guess is that she senses that there’s more than friendship in the air and is wary because of your situation.
Thanks @Lovisa and @Mila.
I didn’t want to say too much because I’m worried about being identified, but the event was a wedding. I’ve confided in my friend and his now wife about my wife and how bossy, controlling, manipulative, gaslighting and abusive she can be towards my daughter and me. She has been rather rude towards my friends on several occasions. I thought they were going a little too far in saying she wasn’t welcome because she is unlikely to cause a scene, and I have told them things are at least pleasant and cordial between us the majority of the time. I understand their point about her not allowing me to enjoy myself (she doesn’t), but I was torn about it. I felt guilty because maybe I created a bit of a monster in their eyes, but I needed someone to confide in. I wasn’t about to go on about how things are at least cordial most of the time. Aside from that, we’ve been living like roommates for 7 years, and I’ve been telling her clearly and unequivocally for 4 of those years that I want separation and divorce and that nothing will change my mind. She flatly refuses to accept our marriage is over, yet she treats me horribly.
My current LO seems perfect for me. I really could imagine having a serious long-term relationship with her. There are some signs there is a spark between us, and it may be mutual, but I am not looking for more than friendship right now (although it must be obvious I’d love more if the circumstances were different). This is hell. My marriage is dead, but there are serious legal, financial, emotional and logistical barriers to separation and divorce. I think my wife is mentally ill because she is delusional with absolutely zero self-respect. But none of this stops her from being horrible towards me. She also seems to care only about money and keeping up with the Joneses. I would love to be with my LO, but I can’t find a way to even make that a possibility. I have to try to forget about her for now.
Vicarious Limerent,
Your situation sounds awful. Is your wife abusive towards you or your daughter?
@Lovisa, it’s both. My daughter desperately wants me to take her out of this toxic environment but I can’t figure out how.
Vicarious limerent,
I think all your energy should go into getting out of this situation. Consult lawyers how best to proceed! You can’t waste your life like that?
Do it for your daughter?
There must be a way to get divorced if one wants to get divorced!
All the best luck to you!
Vicarious Limerent,
Are you afraid of your wife? Is that the reason you haven’t filed for divorce?
VL,
I am sorry about your situation. It sounds terrible. It doesn’t even seem like there is hope. I understand that going in and filing for a divorce yourself in this situation would be like poking a beehive, but you don’t deserve the toxic environment and neither does your Daughter. It might be time to take that step. You don’t need her for anything if divorce is what you really want. I wish you the best way forward, as you try to navigate a way through this.
As for your LO, that evening seemed like there were a few awkward moments throughout. Her leaving without saying goodbye would hurt me too. Since you guys have hung out before, I don’t really understand why she wouldn’t friend you on FB, but she probably has her reason. If you two are in a good enough place to talk about that, I would even ask her why she wouldn’t accept.
You say you want to be just friends and that’s a good place to start, but being limerent over her probably means your overall angle is to take friendship further. She probably senses this if you have the tendency to leak your feelings. (I know I do. I wear my heart on my sleeve) Which of course comes with difficulty. I would say continue to be a good friend and be respectful. You have a lot on your plate with your Wife, but you deserve some happiness and something with worth. So keep letting your friendship grow organically with LO. Nothing is going to happen overnight.
One thing that I am often reminded of in the forum here, is that if they really want to reach out and see you, they will. Use this as a gauge to decipher LOs interest level. Not sure how personal the two of you are toward each other, but if you are the only one reaching out to see her or talk (meaning you’re the only one keeping it going) that should be a good indication of where you’re at on her list of priorities.
I do want divorce, but separation is almost always required for at least a year before divorce is granted in this jurisdiction. My wife refuses to sell the house. The only way I can get her to sell the house is to take her to court and order a sale of the house. That takes money and lawyers (money is in short supply), and there is nowhere I can go while legal action is pending. There is nowhere else I can live, and I have nowhere to go in the interim. I also need to think of my daughter (she desperately wants away from her mother). Housing costs are astronomical here, and there isn’t even enough money to support one household, never mind two. I gave her a financial offer that would allow her to buy a cheaper house outright or close to it, but she refused, saying she didn’t want to live in a less prestigious area. I am legitimately scared of the things she would do if I took steps towards separation. She would find creative ways to make my life hell (even more so than it already is). I am so envious of my friend who was married to a boring and miserable woman. He just had to tell her once it was over, and they divorced. Now he has a nice life and is marrying a lovely woman. Why can’t I have that? Why did I have to be married to a delusional woman with no self-respect who thinks possessions and keeping up with the Joneses are more important than happiness?
Don’t forget I am limerent for LO #3. Saying I should just focus on ending my marriage is easier said than done. This lady seems so perfect for me. The only way I’ve gotten over limerence in the past 5 years is through transference. I fear that might just happen again, but in some ways I don’t want to get over this lady because she’s fantastic, and I think I might actually have a chance of things were different. I really believe she is holding back on me for moral reasons, but I’m not going to ask her out, try to kiss her or try to get her into bed while I’m still living under the same roof as my wife. I can be just friends and control my urges and impulses. I really think she and her friend were relieved when they found out my date at the wedding was my daughter. Her best friend then told us to sit with them as soon as they found that out. I took it as completely genuine. I didn’t get to talk much to my LO (mostly because another guy was chatting her up). I didn’t force my way into the conversation, but she may have misinterpreted it as lack of interest on my part. The last time I saw her, it was wonderful. We got along so well and she hugged me at the end of the night. I sent her and her friend Facebook friend requests after that. Her friend accepted right away but she did not. It could again be based on her not wanting to lead on a married man. I also know she doesn’t have a lot of Facebook friends and isn’t very active on there. She is also kind of private and shy. I believe she has a secret she is hiding from people, and I’m pretty sure I know what it is. If it is what I’m thinking, it wouldn’t bother me one bit (I won’t say what it is but let’s just say it’s ancient history). She is fun and outgoing, but also a bit shy in some ways. Somehow, that shyness and mysterious adds to her appeal to me.
“I gave her a financial offer that would allow her to buy a cheaper house outright or close to it”
I can feel your frustration VL. I wish I had a good answer but the only good suggestion I can give is to get out yourself. Let her figure out why.. You don’t deserve the treatment. Could that offer you made to your Wife be applied to yourself instead? I know it’s probably way more complicated for you than I can comprehend but someone has to drop the ball here and do something.
I wouldn’t keep living with such a bitter and angry Woman. I’d rather live in my car than come home to that every night.
VL,
Do you have an Employee Assistance Program where you work. They will often provide some free legal advice that would explain your options.
During Covid, numerous jurisdictions put in a “separation in place” options because people couldn’t move. So, you might be able to stay in the house while that was going on. Advice from an EAP lawyer could tell you if you qualify.
Divorce isn’t easy or cheap. The ex of one of my Navy buddies dragged things out for a few years until my buddy found a shark that could move things along. My buddy said that between the settlement and giving her half his Federal and Naval Reserve pensions, the divorce cost him over $400K.
Good luck!
@MJ and LE, I do have an EAP at work but it does seem a bit basic. I doubt it includes legal advice, but it wouldn’t hurt to ask. I should contact them anyway because I could use some help in navigating this. I actually have a legal background and lots of tools at my disposal (although I’m not a family lawyer). I could draft my own separation agreement, but what I’d love is a way to make my wife accept the end of our marriage. We can do in-house separations here, but the conditions are very strict and there’s no way my wife would comply with them. The only other thing I can do is to petition a court to order a sale of the house. It would be good to see a family lawyer at some point too.
Vl, i would echo what most people are saying here and MJs comment on top. Maybe she was interested, likely doesnt want to be seen as a home breaker so kept her distance. And i think MJs Intuition is right, if she isnt reaching out you arent a priority. It doesnt mean she didnt, dorsnt or couldnt like you, but if it is a red line she wont want to focus on you, as you are not available, and presumably she is not limerent so is capable of behaving sensibly…..
I had this with LO2, and it is why she initially cut contact (she explicitly said so). Looking back i now realize she either quite strongly wanted to be friends again or possibly even get back together, but once she realized she was an issue in my relationship she cut contact fairly quickly. Its a good thing, right, good morals, but as discussed previously also a bad thing for a limerent in the throes….
Thanks @Heebie Jeebies. I don’t think I’m a priority for her. Otherwise, she wouldn’t have waited four months to see me again. She had many opportunities to come out with us and didn’t (other than one time when I wasn’t able to attend). But rarely are things black and white. I think she does (or did) like me on some level, but I’m simply not available to her right now. I wish I could let her know just how rocky my marriage is, but I don’t think that’s going to mean much until I get a place of my own and take off my wedding ring. Actions speak louder than words. I’ve had some interest from other attractive ladies lately, so I do think I’d be able to meet someone else at some point. I just wish it could be her. But she is free, single and beautiful and she must have lots of suitors. It’s likely it wasn’t meant to be, and I have to accept that.
Vicarious
In hindsight I can see how LO kind of “herded” me around possible bad behavior on my part. I think that she was very self aware of me and tended to; in words and actions, keep it a friendly co-worker relationship. She was very gracious and friendly but still kept me on my toes, so to speak.
Even when she was still at the job I never had outside the work contact. She never reached out even at first when I wasn’t limerent for her. I think a lot of times for us married limerents our LO’s are “better” for us than we are for ourselves in protecting our current relationships.
Thanks @Adam. I do think my LO’s interactions with me have been designed to put the brakes on my pursuit of her. She doesn’t know me and doesn’t realize I can be friends with women I am extremely attracted to and not give in to my desires and impulses. There is that whole stereotype of men having mistresses and promising they’ll leave their wives for them and never do. I don’t want her to be my mistress, but I do know that many people have entered into affairs even though they had no intentions of doing so to begin with. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. She may even like me but is afraid of what might happen if we get too close. The thing is this lady is so incredibly special and such a good fit for me. I should use that as fodder for getting out of my marriage and possibly being able to date her someday. I doubt she would the “The One” but who knows? I’m never going to find out living in limbo.
I hope its ok if I reach out here for comfort and support
I had horrible dreams about LO all last night
This morning I have been sad and cry all morning
I really really need to see her, not possible… or at least to message her ( not a good idea, altho she would likely be supportive )
I am just needing someone to talk to, but I have no one I can talk to about this
Write out your dreams in a very organized fashion here, and analyze it WHY your Unconscious thought, felt, and did in this “horrible dreams”….
Then sit with your thoughts and feelings, for hours or days if necessary; the pain of sadness would go away…
Give it a shot and feel better….
thanks for the reply
they all centred around LO not needing me anymore, and me seeing her be close and friendly ( like she is / was with me ) with other, especially male coworkers, and esp a male coworker she sits next to, I can feel my heart being torn out
I would wake, go back to sleep, and it was just more of the same… worst night sleep I ever had
And now just crying all morning
Why do you want/need HER (or a part of yourself) to need you? (Just think hard about it yourself…).
LE jealousy can be really intense, and tell yourself, it’s normal to feel it; otherwise, you’re NOT even in limerence.
You’re very lucky that your Anima (feminine side) could drive precious tears (my Animus would not allow it) , which would help release and reduce your LE pains. Just let tears flow as much as they naturally do… I envy you!
Expect worse dreams about LO to come, as I had over 7 years…. Trust me, they will come, and they will help to sort out of your LE, if your logical/analytic mind could work on them..
Best of the luck!
Hi New_To_Limerence, sorry that you are struggling today. The tears are part of limerence. Many of us have experienced the tears. It’s intense, but it doesn’t last. Snowphoenix has some interesting self-awareness exercises for you to try. It sounds like that path will lead to acceptance and that’s a great place to go.
I’m sorry that you feel like you can’t talk to anyone about your situation. At least you have us. Hopefully we can help.
I thought you might like a little company while you’re struggling. Dr L wrote an article about limerence dreams. Perhaps you would like to read it and the comments.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-dreams/
Best wishes!
thank you Lovisa
I am hoping you lovely people can help, thanks
I will check out that link
This has all been quite awful 🙂 I have a day or 2 when I am all fine…. then… pow! Drowning in emotions
Being in LO’s presence is very calming for me… but not really a long term solution, I think
Hi NTL. Welcome to the forum. I can relate to all that you have said, as I have experienced this too.
In the beginning, it felt like the most awesome feeling ever, leading to super highs. Eventually, I got addicted to her and interactions with her, and used to feel really low when there was no contact. All this lasted for a long time (couple of years!), me being “stuck” in the high-low cycles. It is only now that I have started to get my mental stability back, slowly. The urge to seek her is less and less. Will it be zero? I do not know. But, at-least I am able to manage myself .
The whole process takes its own time, hang in there. We are always there to listen and assist, whenever you need.
Lovisa
I am only part way through the “Dreams ” blog… it has been an eye opener so far… so I am not alone in my “LO ” dreams either…. thanks for pointing it out to me… the blog I mean
I guess I am not as unique as I thought! 🙂
NTL,
There is a lot of gold buried in the old blogs. You can start with a click from the homepage where DrL links to the key ones.
They are good for distraction, feeling less alone, and learning about what’s going on in your brain.
You are clearly very much in limerence’s famous ‘altered state of mind’ right now – it will be clouding your thoughts and judgement.
It does get better with time and, if you can achieve it, distance. It won’t be this way forever even if it feels like it will.
You won’t get immediate answers but try to figure out what this LO stands for, for you / what of yourself and your past or present wants and needs you are projecting onto her. Also, try to spare your wife as much as possible, even if you need a few creative cover stories to do that. That is, unless you think the two of you are strong enough that you could tell her and then battle it together. A couple of people here (not me) have succeeded with that.
Vent here any time you need. People are ready to listen – don’t feel guilty. A problem shared is a problem halved and all that.
I have known her almost 15 months… we became very close friends ( and I hope we still are… I have stupidly told her some of how I feel ) and when Limerence took my mind away 3 months ago ( she got some great news, and we spontaneously had a good close hug )… I think that “broke” my brain )
I really just want my close friend back, without this brain damage
And, I think she will be changing jobs by summer… and I will never see her again 🙁
Crying again
Can you possibly see/envision her as a symbol/representation of your buried youthful Anima?
Telling someone your true affection is very brave and touching, not stupid (that’s a calculating mind talking).
If you want your friendship back without limerence, imo, you need to let go of her, which may mean LC/NC physically first and then the mind will follow…
Keep crying, keep tears flowing! Tears are a million times better than depression and despair…
I thank you more than I can say for you helpful and kind words Snowpheonix
NC / LC wont work well … we are in same dept at work… and I don’t really want to not be with her ( we have begun using our lunch breaks to go for long walks together… which is nice )
I am not sure if I can take more, or as you suggested, even worse dreams about her!!
My wife has found out about my sadness and tears, but I cannot tell her why
She is very kind and we have had some nice hugs, and my tears, this morning
Our LEs differ quite dramatically. Even though my LO is a Co-Worker, we work in separate locations now.
When she moved locations, I cried for months. She was the only reason I didn’t mind getting up in the morning. I was devastated beyond words she would leave and leave me hanging, when I believed her eye contact meant so much more..
Stupid breadcrumbs, that’s all they were and my dumba$$ believed it..
Thing is, I still miss her, still cry over her if I allow myself to ruminate. It’s gotten easier with NC the last year, but I still like to wander over to her side of the complex now and then, to see if she’s coming or going. Like I’ll get so excited if I see her car and know she’s close. Or getting in or out of it. Just a glance of her excites me.
I wanted to let you know you’re not alone in anxiety today.. I get the endless sadness you’re feeling..
It will get easier eventually for you. I spent a lot of time in tears over LO and wrote sad poetry to her. It helped me a lot actually. She’ll never be on the receiving end of it, but sometimes I think about what she would say if I left her something on her car.
I won’t do it though. I really do kind of need my job.
Yes I think I am very lucky with my friend, I am hopeful we will remain friends when this LE fades
( from what I have read here… really this can take months / years for this LE to fade to a comfortable level? ) Yikes!
Well, likely, as I said she will be no longer be working here by the summer… which I think will hurt a LOT! Not looking forward to that… I am going to miss her so much
For now… I am wanting to spend as much quality time with her as I can
From LAR –
“You are clearly very much in limerence’s famous ‘altered state of mind’ right now – it will be clouding your thoughts and judgement.” Yes I agree, I sure must be… I am NOT used to having my brain chem messed with this way ( never a drinker or used any drugs )
” It does get better with time and, if you can achieve it, distance. It won’t be this way forever even if it feels like it will.” I wont be able to use distance for several months
I couple of weeks ago I DID try LC with her… I think it hurt and confused her… and it HURT me so much… worst pain I ever felt
🙁
” You won’t get immediate answers but try to figure out what this LO stands for, for you / what of yourself and your past or present wants and needs you are projecting onto her.” That is an interesting thought… I will think on it
My SO would NOT at all understand… I do NOT want to hurt her at all
I think it’s best not to disclose to SO or LO, but I’ve disclosed to both. It wasn’t my choice either time. My LO disclosed his feelings of attraction to me. My SO asked me directly what was going on with my LO and I told him the truth. As far as I know, there are only three people in our club whose spouses know we are here: Adam, Dr L, and me.
I’m still here because I like the community and I think this stuff is fascinating. I’m not limerent anymore, thank goodness.
Here is my story if you’re interested.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/new-year-purpose/#comment-39004
We had a gal who went by SOMiranda (I think). If you can find her posts, she would be a great resource for you. Her husband disclosed his limerence about another woman. Miranda’s comments could give you an idea of what your wife would experience if she knew about your limerence.
Lovisa…
Thanks again for the link, and I did find SO MIranda… thanks
https://livingwithlimerence.com/dealing-with-limerence-in-marriage/
SO.Miranda says
February 11, 2024 at 4:31 am
Reading that blog and her experiences will be a help
On more positive notes…
I did have a MUCH better sleep, and no LO dreams
got to spend time with LO this morning, told her about some times and things about her that are important to me
she told me that she will be working here for a least another 12 months 🙂
I did tell her that I LOVE her ( as a special friend )… she didn’t seem weirded out ( I think she already knew )
we are planning to go for a lunch break walk this afternoon 🙂
All in all… so far a pretty good day
Thanks all for listening to me ramble
I’m sorry to be the bearer of bad news, New_To_Limerence, but the reason you feel better is because you got your fix.
I hope you stay with us. I also hope that you set standards for yourself like, “I am not willing to cross ————- boundary.”
Unfortunately Lovisa is right. Steady doses of your drug of choice (pleasant LO contact) will keep you in a good mood.
And that’s the risk when the LO really likes the limerent *as a friend* and therefore indulges them a tad too much.
I’m actually curious what the record would be for the feel-good phase of limerence? I.e. when the highs outweigh the lows at least to the point of the limerent not feeling the need to blow the whole thing up by disclosing, giving ultimatums or otherwise sabotaging what the LO perceives as a nice friendship…? 🤔
NTL,
Sorry but I have to agree with both Lovisa and Trifles here (not trying to judge, just observe – good for you if you keep talking to us).
Trifles – on your question – euphoria first 3-4
months after glimmer, urge to blow up with disclosure kicked in for a 6 month spell from month 5 to 11, then went.
Lovisa –
I’m sorry to be the bearer of bad news, New_To_Limerence, but the reason you feel better is because you got your fix.
Well… she took a sick day today, off work, which I was not expecting ( was all set to see her / touch her / and go for a walk with her ), I even bought her a treat for lunch… and I find that today I am MISERABLE…. no “fix” today, I feel you are right about why I felt
better
It kind of does NOT help that she is kind and understanding, and well… just so darn special ( how does not EVERY one see her that way? I have chatted with her at her desk, and as far as I can tell, the rest of the world just disappears )
I hope you stay with us. I also hope that you set standards for yourself like, “I am not willing to cross ————- boundary.”
Sadly, I am starting to think I have NO boundaries with LO, and would agree at this stage to almost anything she suggests ( and yes, I will be staying with you all as a kind understanding support group
Hi NTL,
Yes, I would agree with all here, and I see your post about her taking a sick day.
This kind of thing happens with me, and with my LO too. I’m all ready to go, feeling better after getting my fix, feeling more stable, like I can deal with him, then…he is out without me expecting it. The feeling when that happens is like falling without stopping, I feel awful, seriously awful. Panicky, emotional, total anxiety…it’s horrible.
It’s that which lets me know the feelings I have towards him are completely unhealthy. And not actual communication, but an illusion of a bond. That despair, that falling feeling…it’s my nervous system going into a total crash. It lasts at least 24 hours. But, the reverberations can last a week or more. I feel like I’m climbing out of a pit.
I too believe I can be a “friend” to my LO. But, I am starting to wrap my mind around the fact that while I adore my LO, he is not an actual option for me. He is not my soulmate. He is not my savior. He is attractive, but that attraction can end. He may have feelings for me, as well. Not impossible. But technically, I am not available. That uncertainty keeps me ablaze for him…
I have to start using my willpower, and override my lizard-brain. I can’t keep going on this cycle of high emotion, fake stability, then crash. So, I relate to what you are going through. It’s so intense.
I’m not sure if you’ve ever heard of Following Fenna on YouTube? I found out about her here. I think you’d really, really love her content. She is an ex-limerent, and she really understands the dynamic. She cuts to the chase and her advice is very illuminating and helpful.
https://m.youtube.com/@followingfenna
CSC
LaR,
Three to four months in the euphoria phase sounds quite long. I’m not sure how long I’ve lasted in that phase. I remember frustration kicked in already after about 3 weeks last time.
But then I managed to get back into euphoria for a few more weeks after that.
It’s hard to say when the frustration outweighs the good feels, especially in hindsight. One would have to track that in real time, e.g. by journaling. But I’m not interested in conducting that experiment anymore, personally!
Hello Lovisa and NTL,
I just want to clarify something about disclosing to SO. I think that in situations where the limerent is dealing with the limerence (by reading about it on LwL, for example, and trying to understand it), it’s probably best to not disclose to SO. However, if the SO asks about it (as I did), then the limerent should tell the SO. At the time I asked my husband, it was pretty clear to me that he was infatuated with LO, and by asking him I was just trying to confirm my suspicions. Had he lied to me, I don’t think we’d still be together. It’s been 3 years since I asked him, and we’ve revitalized our marriage and he tells me (and I believe him) that the limerence is over.
My husband knows about this site (I was the one who suggested that his “condition” may be limerence) and he has seen my posts. Everything I’ve expressed here I’ve expressed to him in person.
NTL – I’m sorry that you’re suffering from rejection by your SO. What worked for my husband and me was very radical openness and vulnerability. I obviously don’t know your exact situation or your SO, but is it possible that she doesn’t truly understand how hurt and rejected you feel?
Hi SO.Miranda,
Thanks for this post.
I’ve often debated during my LE whether it would be fairer to be honest with SO, at least to some extent.
SO’s are generally not stupid when it comes to partners. Like it seems you detected changes in your husband’s behaviour, and NTL’s SO has done … I’m sure my SO has too.
But I also believe the SO will prod / ask about it, to whatever extent they want to know, like I think you’re saying. My SO skirts the edges of conversations about my LO – taps at it a bit, but then pulls back. She has never asked me a direct question about my feelings for her. And yet I am adamant in my head that if someone explained limerence to her and said that I was limerent for someone, she would know who the someone was.
Yet she never does ask. My best guess is this is because 1. she’d rather not have confirmation, 2. she (correctly) trusts that I’d never have a PA, and 3. she believes we can and are working on our own things independent of that.
It is strange – like she almost tolerates LO’s presence in my life without wanting to know an awful lot more.
So for that reason I feel I’d do more harm than good if I told her – hurt her when I didn’t need to (caveat – I know my being in an LE will hurt her/us in a different way). But if she ever does ask me, I’ll be honest and take the consequences from there.
Thank you, SOMiranda! Your perspective is helpful and you deliver it in a kind way. I am amazed at how patient you can be with us limerents.
“At the time I asked my husband, it was pretty clear to me that he was infatuated with LO, and by asking him I was just trying to confirm my suspicions.”
Miss Miranda
This is why I disclosed to my wife. She had her suspicions about my behavior. So telling her about limerence was actually “hey I am not having an affair but this is what is wrong with me” more than it was telling her something she didn’t already know.
I agree with your assessment that partners usually know what’s going on with out the smitten one even saying anything. Or worse trying to hide it/downplay it as I did. Believe me Miss Miranda when I say us committed limerents appreciate the kindness, forgiveness and understanding our spouses/partners give us. We are so undeserving but much appreciated.
Hello everyone. Thought this would be a good time to share an update. Had some recent LO exposure on a couple of occasions. These are the ones I used to perceive as negative, since we did not greet one another, or speak to one another.
The really good thing is that I did not feel low afterwards, well, to be honest, a little low, but it was very manageable.
Since I was anyways doing decent without LO contact, this was the one thing that was driving me nuts, since there was no way to not see LO for a long time.
I am hoping this trend continues. This has been a huge plus for me in my recovery from LE. I am not analysing this too much, just want to keep going like this.
Thanks for listening, all. Cheers.
Good for you. Glad to hear things are ticking along.
Thanks McGuiness.
Success!
Thanks Lovisa. I am happy, but definitely watchful.
Sounds like you’re keeping your mind right. Keep up the good work.
Thanks for the update..
👏🏻👏🏻
Thank you, MJ.
Well done ABCD! Almost out of the woods. Not analyzing too much is exactly the way to go!
Thanks Mila! Not analysing is hard for me, as I do it anyways, even for non LO related stuff.
ABCD,
I think in some states of a limerent episode analyzing is just unavoidable, and in some stages it can be helpful. But now that you managed to untangle yourself from the worst, I think most is gained by not giving it headspace anymore.
Congratulations it’s a milestone progress!
I second Mila tha t don’t analyze things too much… just keep cooling the head. 😎
Thanks Snow! Yeah, just taking it one day at a time.
Oh my gosh, ABCD that is amazing! Definitely give yourself a big pat on the back. It’s hard to do what you are doing!
I hope you’ll keep looking forward, not ruminating or analyzing, and just thinking about how you are moving ahead, have been able to be strong, and that it’s gotten you to a place you maybe thought you couldn’t reach, a little while back.
The fact you feel you could manage your lowness is great. Stay on your course…and that will get even easier. (Yes, I have been in an LE lately, but I am a veteran of at least 2 priors fairly recently, and know that if you stay the course, you WILL keep seeing these lasting changes!)
Warmly, CSC
Thanks CSC! I feel I am partly helped by LO, look like she has also cooled off recently.
Yes, I observed that my highs and lows tapered off, since the past couple of month. That definitely makes the whole experience easier to deal with.
I intend to stay the course, and hope to feel better and better.
Definitely a milestone, ABCD! Psychological stability returning. Great progress.
Thanks Tom, great to hear from you. This website and the wonderful members have been so invaluable to me, thanks again!
CSC –
” The feeling when that happens is like falling without stopping, I feel awful, seriously awful. Panicky, emotional, total anxiety…it’s horrible. ”
Yeah… pretty much this, especially the anxiety.
So of course I cracked… and messaged her… again, the hit of the drug of choice… and it helped… I am manageable now ( and yes, she knows, I have told her, that she is my dopamine source… doesn’t seem to mind… lucky me?? )
Yes! Thanks, I have been following Fenna… she pulls almost no punches!
L.E.
I recently found out that Frank Sinatra covered “Moon River” and neither my mind nor my ears are happy about that. That’s Andy Williams’ song!
Yeah,
Old Blue Eyes was prolific.
If Sinatra’s cover of “Moon River” left you cold, you’d be even less impressed with his cover of “More.”
Jung’s Synchronicity in reality —
I have been thinking about getting a small tattoo of a red Phoenix… two weeks ago I got three new students (young professionals) in a group class, one of them is a professional tattoo artist. 😀
Now the question is To do or Not to do it, and where on my body (where I can see) to imprint it❓
If I get it, the spirit maybe able to live up to 500 years before she burns to ashes and renews Herself 😋
Inside of left wrist?
I thought did think of the spot a bit higher than the wrist.
Thank you for 1 vote!
Sorry about the typo! 🙊
That could be quite cool, SP. If I got a small tattoo of a witch’s hat and broom on the inside of my left wrist, we would be able to recognise one another if we bumped into each other in real life 😉
And I’ll get a trifle, with strawberries. 😂
As for the place, I would have said on the side of the rib cage below the breast… But apparently that’s a painful place because the bones are near the surface. So scratch that! Choose a fleshier place.
Inside of left wrist is not very fleshy either?
While I can admire a very well made tattoo, it’s not for me somehow. Below the breast means usually nobody can see it apart from you or your SO if you are not in a bikini, and even you cannot see it well without a mirror? I think I just don’t get the idea.
Maybe only because my name here doesn’t go with a cool picture to tattoo..
I amend my vote… underside of left forearm, at its mid-point… easy for you to see, and easy to “hide” if you want to
Mila, as you can guess, I don’t really like tattoos either, for myself that is. So that’s why I would choose a place that wouldn’t show in everyday life. But I would know it’s there and could see it – and very rarely show it off in a bikini.
But if I wanted a reminder that I could look at whenever I needed strength, for example, then inside the arm, above the wrist would be good.
ooooh! And I will get a picture of my LO, and me wrapping around him like an obsessed yet well-meaning boa constrictor. I’ll get it on my forehead.
Haha. I’m kidding. 🙂 Actually I think all these tattoo ideas sound super cute! 🙂
Mila,
You could choose 4 words (or sentences or pictorials) that describe you or inspire you, each one beginning with letters M,I,L and A. Im sure folks can give some suggestions 😉
Trifles, your tattoo is making me want to eat something calorific and full of sugar !
Trifles, Mila, Imho,
I’m not a tattoo kind of person at all, and only have a small brownish birthmark on my outer right forearm near the wrist. I don’t even use nail polish or any makeup nowadays…
So I thought I could have a very small red phoenix on the left parallel spot but inside, so myself can see it — the site of HER always flick something in my system somewhere….
If I take pains to alter anything on my natural body, I need to see and feel it (not through a mirror); it has to have meaning for ME, not a “show” for anyone else! 😊
Snow,
That’s so funny, I also have a birth mark on my right outer forearm near the wrist, it faded a bit with age but still there..
Mila,
That’s why we both innately do not like beard on men’s face without sounding reasons .… 🫂
I’m also afraid of the stereotyped Frenchmen smell, which once almost knocked me out in a plane while sitting next to a tall, handsome Frenchman. I “rudely” changed the seat (the plane was half full).
The one I met last week did not smell in the theater, so I’m going to watch another movie with him this evening.
Bewitched,
To bump into you randomly would be like (an idiom) — fishing a needle in the sea, unless we are in each other’s town. Now, I’ll have to glance every women’s left wrist when walking in the street… 🧙
I’m already romanticizing our possible meeting in person: no name, no picture (my imagination of your hair is blackish, shoulder up…), but two bare left forearms… I have no clue where you are, although you speak British English?
I wish to Bewitched 🧙 by you in person… So I’ll get that 🐦🔥 tattoo before I soar over the Continent in two months… 🦅
I mean you could go for the uper or lower back wings instead of antlers if you want to do something bigger, although the lower back stuff gets rude remarks….. both painful spots though afaik
Nay!. As I said to the ladies, I’m not a tattoo fans at all, never dated one, Except one or two tiny one (no bigger than an egg, on woman’s body.
If I ever get tiny one, I need to see and hide it easily.
I mean “never dated a guy with tattoos”.
It’s just an idea, to do or not to do it is still a question!
When I get more time,‘I’ll respond your post in the other blog, which would kill more of my limited brain cells. But as accurately observed, i rarely give up a chance to speak last word… 😀
Hi, been a bit since I last posted here. I’m doing so now because I’m struggling a bit and just need to vent.
LO and I have pretty much been reduced to a very mundane boss/employee relationship. For the most part I only interact with her as needed as her work manager. I don’t ask anything about her personal life, and she doesn’t offer anything to me as well. Overall this seems to be the best paradigm for me emotionally as it keeps me from pursuing her which always leads to let down.
But what I am struggling with lately is feeling huge resentment towards her. Not resentment for any way she is acting towards me, I can understand her distance, but resentment that she is in my life at all and I can’t get rid of her. And then I feel guilty for feeling this way because she has done nothing wrong. I just don’t want to coexist with her any longer due to my screwed up emotions. I just wish her gone.
Everyday being around her I feel I have to watch myself that I don’t act too cold to her and yet at the same time I have to catch myself from wanting to engage her personally. So I try to walk a very neutral path with her but it can be exhausting. Also, I am very engaging with all my other female employees so I know she notices. Whether she cares, who knows?
I know freedom is out there. LO was gone for a few weeks and during that time my mind was more clear, and my spirit more at peace.
Maybe I’m just having a bad week. They seem to ebb and flow.
Sounds like you’re cycling through the 5 Stages of grief.
Resentment/anger is pretty normal.
Thanks for the update, Speedy. I can see why you resent your LO. It isn’t fair to her, but your resentment makes sense. I wish there was something I could do to lift your spirits.
Hang in there.
Thanks, Lovisa!
You have been around for this whole saga through the ups and downs. I’m hanging in there but at points I just get tired of living life ‘hanging in there’ all the time. I’ve been hoping some life event happens for her that would cause her to quit but so far she seems to lead a very boring life…lol.
Someone recently (Heebie Jeebies?) mentioned two previous LOs who they nowadays have absolutely zero interest in and dont even know if they’re on social media as he cant be bothered to check – as it just doesnt figure inside his head to do so. I think it was said in the context of limerence being an altered reality. This struck home as I have sort of been getting there with my LO and am contemplating total NC with him (which I have power to do despite occasionally working together). More on that later. My point is that this fantasy appears to be exactly what you crave, Speedwagon. Maybe Heebie Jeebies(?) can advise on how he got there, and whether it was possible despite some / frequent contact?
Bewitched, yeah it was me, although funnily enough i actually did immediately afterwards wonder vaguely what they are up to. However, all social media is off to maintain NC and the interest waned after 5 minutes, but it wouldn’t have been an issue even if not.
Honestly, I can’t help. LE3 was for a colleague, my dad died shortly beforehand, plus some marriage issues, think it was a bit too unique to generalize. Limerence hit with speed, was completely overwhelming, and left just as quickly. I did however start to find her general reticence slightly annoying (was like that with everybody, likely through low self confidence), and I think she also judged me a bit politically, which sort of annoyed me, but I’d be overplaying it to pinpoint resentment as the solution. My main focus the whole time was just not to screw up my working relationship with her which was really good, she was very capable. Once i got over the LE it was great.
LE1 exit was solved by two things (1) moving abroad (and this was pre Social media days) (2) A conversation I had with LO1 last time I saw her before leaving for 1.5 years (we saw each other often later, just as friends) where i disclosed, even though we both knew she knew, and I realized she was relatively callous about how distressing it had been for me. Actually, typing this, I am realizing resentment was a big part of it. I’m not a particularly resentful person, I rarely carry anger towards people around with me, but I when I reach a point where others might get angry I actually become incredibly cold towards them, and somehow am immediately able to think I don’t need this person.
Speedwagon – on reflection, i think ride the resentment and use it to your advantage, but only if you can find genuine reasons for it. If it is really just about her being in your life I am not sure that is the way to go…. but maybe there are things you find a bit annoying about her that you ignore due to limerence. You of course have to remain professional.
Hi Speedwagon,
I agree with Heebie Jeebies that resentment may be the beginning of the end of the LE. Your dynamic (strong physical attraction but little relational compatability) sounds a similar one to my LE. Mine took ages (3 years plus) to wear off but it all started with things you’ve mentioned such as resentment (only in my own mind I never showed this to him), that, plus the death of hope – in accepting it was not going to happen between us (importantly, fully and completely accepting that I really didnt want it to), a small chink of light was created. Very slowly he stopped being my default setting in my thoughts, which was a sort of virtuous circle as it meant I started getting almost no reaction from thinking about him, my brain went down the gears into neutral and sort of beige when he came to mind. It was extremely gradual at first and then snowballed a little bit, then more, and more with longer and longer gaps between thinking of him. I have now come to a point of complete acceptance.
What you are suffering sounds so fatiguing. The tiredness is just emanating off your post. I wonder whether you can trick yourself into the next step (indifference), somehow, to get the ball rolling? If you are as sick of this as you sound, then a natural next step is to be so fed up and over it that you go right off her, romantically. It might be about to happen, if you let it?
Alternatively, Emergency Deprogramming perhaps could be worth a try as you are so receptive to it now? I visualise this as a sort of “faking it (psychologically) until you make it”. This might work to equate the LO with unpleasant fatigued thoughts that are a passion killer. She need never know so its no loss to her. And if leaking those feelings is a concern, a wee sabbatical might help to get the ball rolling. I really hope and feel that recovery is within touching distance now for you.
Having got my own sense of control back, this incredibly obvious solution (that is ‘its in your control’) has been quite amazing. The seed of recovery just has to fall on receptive ground. Being strong willed and stubborn (like I think I am) might help.
Hello Speedwagon
I would think it likely that your LO notices how you are with the other female employees, and as I recall you did disclose to LO, so she knows your feelings regarding her, and think that would make her more aware of how you interact with the other females in your office.
From my very limited experience with LE, my LO, even before I basically disclosed to her… had requested that I NOT become close friends with other women at our workplace, that it would bother her. Since I disclosed ( perhaps even more so now, as we have frequent and affectionate texts… ) she would really not care for me to do that.
So, I would be surprised if your LO did not “care”. It sounds like you two did have a connection, even if it was from her side just “friends “
I’m not sure we ever had a connection. I think my LE mind dreamed that up. I have a pretty strong connection with another woman in my office (not LE oriented, fully friendship) and LO never came close to this.
I will second IMHO’s idea about adding a “layer” at work… could be a great idea
I am one who does believe that adult men and women can be friends, even good and close friends… and the feelings of attraction between friends can usually be, well just normal… I have experienced that with “just friends” women, just kind of a crush, wasnt a big deal
Limerence seems TOTALLY different… as I seen described as “intoxicated”… sure feels like that to me in my brief LE
Speedwagon, could you see yourself becoming Limerent for this other woman?
“Speedwagon, could you see yourself becoming Limerent for this other woman?”
Ive written on this before, but no. But never say never, I’m prone to limerence. I guess that switch could flip one day. But I’m not looking to be limerent with this woman. I love our friendship.
My company does not have layers, so not a solution.
Speedwagon, good to hear from you ( or not depending on the perspective).
I guess as long as you are professional and not making her feel marginalized or under appreciated in the team (?) than I would say it’s ok to have those resentment feelings which is a way for you to cope with the ongoing intense inescapable LE situation you are in. Be easy on yourself. You seem to do admirably well in the circumstances.
Just a thought, if you could maybe add a layer in your organisation. So you create a kind of ‘team leader’ role/s, so LO effectively interacts with someone else and not you so much. You could change the team lead role every so often to different people. I have seen this work well to help people advance their skillset.
Hi Speedwagon,
although my last LE was of course different from yours, I also struggled with a huge resentment towards the end. LO hadn’t done anything wrong other than just being the way he was, I knew I was being unfair to suddenly judge and resent him.
What helped was that he lives a long distance away now and I reduced texting (nothing that helps you) but also talking about his negative traits with one or two friends- a bit mean, I know, but somehow it got me a perspective that 1. I was right in perceiving in him some negative points, that it wasn’t all in my ex-limerent head, 2. he still wasn’t all bad and all was a matter of relation and perspective.
What also helped was focusing for a while on a mini- limerence for a new person- a dangerous remedy, but since I got out of it quite quickly, it did the job of pushing LO to lower ranks of attention and focus.
That isn’t meant to be advice, I just try to think what helped me…
I think this resentment is a normal stage. It’s resentment for the whole situation and also for oneself, not only for LO. It means being fed up and an anti-reaction to all that seemingly wasted energy and pain of the past.
Maybe it’s a sign that you moved on a bit? It was for me.
Still, it’s good to not let it take over since as you say your LO hasn’t done anything wrong. It would be good to shift focus or perspective somehow, push her from her exclusive place as „LO“, so that she becomes just another female worker. That’s what she basically is, you know.
Easier said than done.
But maybe it helps to see this resentment as a normal and necessary stage you can get through by play-acting a bit? Like reducing contact wherever it’s possible but let this little contact be warm and normal so she doesn’t feel treated badly.
Thanks Mila, what you say resonates a lot. I think there is just a natural fatigue that sets in when your reasoned brain is over it all but your emotions and desires haven’t caught up. I’m feeling that fatigue. But I do think it is symbolic of the LE moving through it’s cycle maybe towards an end. I just don’t know if that end is months away or years away. If nothing changes it feels like it could be years and that is a depressing thought.
Hi Speedwagon. I am sorry you are feeling low.
There are some parallels in both our LEs. Like with you, my contact with LO has gradually and naturally reduced to pretty much zero now. This has helped me a lot. However, unlike you, I “see” LO only occasionally, whereas you need to interact with her every day. Even those occasional interactions were very hard to handle for me, till recently.
Recently, for the first time, I have also started to resent LO, though as you said, no fault of hers, but its a natural reaction from my side.
Finally, like you, I feel if I could never see LO again, it would be the best for me, as she triggers me during interactions and sightings. However, this is not happening.
I know the ebbs and flows too well.
All I can say is that you are doing the right thing by trying to go neutral. Hang in there, I hope and pray that you feel better.
@Speedwagon,
Just wanted to drop and say hello again. It’s good to hear from you. Thought maybe we had lost you due to a total recovery. Crazy thought huh?
I can feel your frustration reading your words. That would cause me some turbulent thoughts as well. Again I think you still handle things masterfully and with grace it seems.
Would it be possible for you to get her to work remotely from home? Thereby eliminating any contact with her at work? I don’t know if her actual job makes that possible. You are her Boss and if you felt like that would be a good option, perhaps it might be in your best interest to look into it.. Just a thought..
some weeks are just tough….. maybe try not to stress too much and get to the end of the week and see if it is an issue again on Monday…..
Maybe you can plan something unusual for the week that will distract you? Go to a type of event to you would never think of doing, try a new sport or something or even jsut plan to watch a type of movie you dont usually? Anything to distract yourself
You have to be careful – as a manager it is very tricky territory. Realistically the only way forward is to try to get to a point where you treat her like anybody else, you have a professional responsibility you have to live up to which is a cross you sadly just have to bear. Sorry, that’s a bit harsh but i just think for these work based LEs things can spiral.
Speedwagon,
I have little to add to what others have said, but one thing I’ve picked up from your posts over time is that it’s impressive how you can separate your professional responsibilities as her boss, from how the LE has made you feel and kept you feeling.
It is credit to you that you’ve made the situation comfortable enough since the disclosure that she has stayed working for you and it hasn’t (from all you’ve said) affected her career path or the way she wants to work. I realise that maintaining that status quo makes your position much more difficult than if it could change. But you have resisted the situation to try and encourage her to change jobs etc. I don’t really have an answer, other than I think it is still right not to change anything around as her boss. Maybe the LE will start to fade even more after you have got through this resentment stage 🤞 You’ve been pretty patient with it and it seems you have shunted it into the back of your mind for more of the time than was the case before.
I’m trying to understand your situation, New_To_Limerence. Maybe I am mixing up your story with someone else’s.
Your LO is 30 years younger than you.
She is your peer at work.
You two affectionately text after hours, go for walks, hug, touch in other ways and she said she would be jealous if you befriended other women at work. Your limerence is intense enough to bring you to tears, but you feel a fatherly connection with her not a sexual attraction.
Do I understand correctly?
Hi Lovisa
Yes, to most of all that – ( and she and I am both married )
– the affectionate texting, walks, hugs, etc…and her stating ( and showing in some behaviour ) that she doesnt want me befriending other women… all correct
the touching is I dont think flirty, but we touch hands, shoulders, arms, we are comfortable with full body hugging
I still maintain I feel father / daughter ( am I deluding myself??? God I hope not )
I dont see how she could have any romantic feeling for me… I am old enough to be her dad ( altho her biological father is almost 20 yrs older than me )
Yes, I have felt myself driven to tears…. when I was trying to use LC with her ( it was actually aweful ) and felt I was going to lose her.
The texting is not flirty, but very affectionate with heart emojis, we refer to each other as special close friends, and have lovely chats
Hi New_To_Limerence, I’ve been pondering your situation. I have a few thoughts to share.
You mentioned that you…
“still maintain I feel father / daughter ( am I deluding myself??? God I hope not )”
I hope it’s not more than a fatherly connection, too.
“I don’t see how she could have any romantic feeling for me… I am old enough to be her dad.”
I don’t see how this could be a romantic connection for your LO either.
“( altho her biological father is almost 20 yrs older than me )”
Wow! Fascinating! I am very curious about her parents’ age-gap.
Alright, let’s just get this out of the way. Hypothetically speaking, if you learned that your LO had a crush on you, how would you feel?
You mentioned your SO in an earlier post and it sounds like she is a lovely woman. Do you want to be loyal to her? Do you want to put her first?
she was born as a bit of a “surprise” to her parents… by far the youngest of her siblings… thus the age gap… I might be wrong about her dads age, but at least 15 yrs old than I am
“Hypothetically speaking, if you learned that your LO had a crush on you, how would you feel?” I can say that I have not thought about it ( Really, I would be stunned by surprise )… would that change how I perceive her? Myself, as a flawed human, I think I would be flattered but thats about it… but I admit that there is not much of an upper limit about how emotionally close I want to be with her
Yes, my SO is a lovely woman, I love her very much. ( but it cannot help this LE that we are in a sexless marriage, with little physical affectionate contact )
I did tell my wife last night that LO and I are close friends, and go on lunch walks… I think she is processing that
sorry I forgot to answer your last question… Yes I wish to be loyal to my SO, and put her first.
I should say… with people I am close to, I am very physical, its just my nature… touches, hugs, etc
I have only done “quick ” hugs with other coworkers, a couple of times , when they were leaving / retiring
I am not very comfy hugging people I do not know or just met
and… to complete a picture –
about 25 yrs ago, we took a girl into our home ( her from age 15 to 20 ), kind of “adopted” her… who I came to see VERY much as a daughter… for about 5 or more years after she left, I would not even say her name, it just hurt ( my wife came to refer to her as ” she who shall not be named ”
there was a falling out, she left , never seen her again ( she would be about 45 now )
I am thinking I may be trying to get LO to fill the void I still feel for her… perhaps
I can see how your LO might be filling the hole that was left when your foster daughter cut contact. It sounds like you have been doing some soul searching in attempt to make sense of your LE. A good guess is that she reminds you of the daughter you lost. I don’t know if that is why you are so drawn to your LO, but it makes sense. I wonder if you remind her of her father. Perhaps you are filling a void for her, too.
Do your spouses know about the affectionate nature of your relationship? How do they feel about it?
I told my wife last night that LO and I are good friends and go for lunch walks… she was a bit surprised that I hadn’t mentioned LO before… and is I think processing this
LO a few weeks ago I think casually mentioned to her SO that I was very interested in a process that they are waiting on good news for, and she told me his response was basically ” why would he care and what does it have to do with him “… she explained we are close friends… not sure where their conversation went after that
Hi NTL,
To add to Lovisa’s questions as you try to go about making sense of the LE, I was also interested in how the relationship between you and LO is perceived and discussed by other colleagues at work? It surely must have attracted a bit of attention and conversation, and I just wondered how both of you are managing that?
that is an excellent question… we often have chats / touch / and have hugged where I am sure the 3 or 4 people near her desk can see.
I dont think either of us have considered how it looks, what the “optics” are… now I should ponder that.
No one at all has mentioned it to me or questioned me about it
Hi New_To_Limerence, I just wanted to let you know that I have been pondering your situation. I can’t comment right now because I am pressed for time. I also hesitate to comment because I am wrestling with my own biases and I don’t want to put my ideas in your mind. Hopefully that makes sense. I’ll get back to you soon.
I noticed that you are committed to your wife. I’m happy about that even though it’s none of my business.
I want to address your sexless marriage if you feel comfortable talking about it. Lost in Space left a great post about what it’s like to have a sexless marriage. I couldn’t find it, sorry.
I need to run, literally. It’s my long-run day and I need to get it done before we help our son move to his new apartment.
Hello Lovisa
I am quite comfortable discussing my marriage.. at my time in life, I have come to value truth and openness ( but… not enough to hurt my wife with these “truths “, such as they are )
She knows now that LO and I are close friends, and go on our lunch walks. And, although I don’t THINK I am outwardly acting different at home, she says I have been noticeably different these last 3 months or so…. hmmmm
And she has said before, that she would “understand” if because of our lack of intimacy I went outside the marriage, but that she would divorce me… that leave me with zero options for physical intimacy, but I love my wife and wont do that
And, on an odd side note… in a chat message with LO a few days ago, I mentioned something ( I don’t recall the exact message, and she had me delete it from my side… in an answer back to her telling me that she gets Therapeutic massages every 2 weeks… something regarding that I enjoyed giving my wife massages but do not any longer as she doesn’t want them anymore… LO knows about my marriage situation… I think she felt I was offering to massage her myself… I wasn’t ) that seemed to upset / bother her. So I apologized and told her we can backpedal our relationship to work colleagues ( I felt very bad about it )
She, as usual, messaged me a “good morning” the next day… and when I wasn’t my usual warm friendly response ( I basically just said good morning back, and a straight “ok” to her cancelling our walk that day ) she said she wasnt feeling well… and asked why I was not being more warm and friendly, and didn’t I still want to be her friend? I thought she was still upset and frankly weirded out… I was trying to “dial it back” and make her feel comfortable again. She very strongly said she did not want to talk about it again. I went to see her in person at her desk and said in a light relaxed tone… “I don’t have any idea what you are talking about”… to let her know it was completely forgotten… which got a smile from her… and we had a nice chat out some food she wanted to make and share with me
Truly I thought I had broken our friendship with an “unintendedly inappropriate” remark … seems not! So thats good
Thanks for your reply, New_To_Limerence. It sounds like you have your head on your shoulders which isn’t common during the stage of limerence that I think you are currently experiencing. A level head is good news.
Your situation is fascinating to me. It appears that your LO wants a close father/daughter connection and you want it, too. It sounds like your wife can accept it if you seek emotional intimacy from your LO, too. Fascinating! It looks like you aren’t keeping secrets from anyone. Your SO, LO and you are all willing and able to set boundaries if anyone crosses a line. This is very interesting.
I don’t see much of a downside to your LE except for the intense emotions. I guess you will learn to manage your highs and lows. Am I missing something? Is there another downside to your LE?
I don’t understand sexless marriages. I can endure 2 weeks of celibacy at most so I don’t understand how a marriage becomes sexless. Do you know why your marriage became sexless? How long has it been? You don’t have to answer. I appreciate your openness, and I understand if this is too personal to discuss.
NTL
I quite adopted a fatherly role to LO’s daughter. To the point, in earnest, when I commented my distaste for a boy’s interest in her daughter to her, she responded “I wish her own father was as concerned with her as you are” (she was divorced when I first met her). While it wasn’t limerence for her daughter it was very well being too over protective of the closest thing I ever had to my own daughter. So I can somewhat understand where you are coming from. I shudder now thinking that she is not a girl anymore, after all these years, but a young woman. And I get the overwhelming urge to get the shotgun out of the closet lol
the poem is a dream telling you its time
Marwa Helal
is a field
as long as the butterflies say
it is a field
with their flight
it takes a long time
to see
like light or sound or language
to arrive
and keep
arriving
we have more
than six sense dialect
and i
am still
adjusting to time
the distance and its permanence
i have found my shortcuts
and landmarks
to place
where i first took form
in the field
******
of a butterfly emerging from its cocoon…. 🐦🔥
Song of the Day: “Never Be The Same” – Christopher Cross (1979)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2rg1EBn8aI
This song came out the month before LO #1 and I said goodbye. I never heard from her again and I have never been able to track her down. Considering her fondness for misadventure and recreational drugs, she could very easily be dead.
But, she was fascinating company. That young woman crammed more living into 21 years than a lot of people do in a lifetime. She told great stories. I lost my virginity to her. We talked about everything from the Strategic Arms Limitation Talks to types of cannabis. I learned a lot of things from her from recreational drugs to Carlos Casteneda and native American mysticism to how to read auras. She introduced me to a real Shaman.
Including the fact that she had a boyfriend she cheated on with me, there were other aspects of her lifestyle that I could overlook as a college student that I couldn’t overlook as a naval officer. A few months after we said goodbye, I found a roach in my car. I had lent it to her a few times. If one of those cute little drug-sniffing beagles had popped me at a random inspection, they’d have likely courts-martialed me.
I didn’t realize how much I cared for her until she was gone.
That’s a nice, positive, beneficial memory, LE!
Everyone is a unicorn, if speculated from a unique angle, we literally learn lessons (positive or/and negative) from ANYONE (visible or invisible) who has come across our path — primarily through our interactions with them.
One almost never appreciates anything/anyone enough (properly) until she/he loses it/them! 😞
Our mind, particularly the Unconscious, is so idiotic or chaotic, while our rational one often egotistically/unwisely believes it is in control… 😏
Snow,
Some people have more influence on your life than others. The funny thing about that was LO #1 and I started “dating” pretty much by accident.
I was actually trying to date LO #1’s roommate, who came from the same area in northern IL that I did. LO #1’s roommate was even more into drugs than LO #1 was and the roommate’s BF was a small time dealer. The roommate would periodically get “care packages” from her BF. I remember one containing several bags of different weed, Thai sticks, and LSD blotters. Peyote buttons and mushrooms were locally sourced. I never saw any cocaine or heroin.
We had a great first date and became attracted to each other. We weren’t good candidates for an LTR but we had a lot of fun that last year in college.
LO #1 stories:
LO #1 once showed up at my door asking if she could crash at my place for awhile. She said she went to see “Halloween” on acid and when she came back, she got a knife, backed herself into a corner and hadn’t slept in 36 hours. Once I was sure that she didn’t have the knife on her, I let her stay.
When we were dating, I bought a Ruger Single-action .44 magnum revolver. Against school rules, I kept it in a footlocker in my room. I didn’t have any ammo for it. LO #1 had spent the night. That morning, I came out of the shower and it was freezing. I could hear, “Click! Snap! “Click! Snap!” When I turned the corner, LO #1 was buck naked standing in the open window. She had opened the window, removed the screen and was dry-firing the .44 magnum out the window to the Quad. My life flashed before my eyes. I was a month from graduating and getting my Commission in the Navy. They were going to boot me from school and I have no idea what the Navy would have done to me. I knew a lot of people on the Campus Police force and I was hoping one of them would have shown up. Luckily for me, nobody saw LO #1. Today, she’d have drawn a SWAT team.
Ever see “American Graffiti?” One thing about that movie is it seems like you couldn’t do all the things any one person did in the movie in one night. I had a night like that with LO #1. We went to a party and the night seemed to last forever and I didn’t want it to end. It’s the only night like that I’ve ever had.
I used to play Dungeons and Dragons on Saturdays. LO #1 lived in the area and she said that she was going home for the weekend. I had just started an adventure and LO #1 came in wearing shorts and a halter top. It freaked out most of the geeks in the room. I said that I thought she’d gone home for the weekend. She said that she had but got bored and asked if I wanted to go have a drink with her. I told her that we’d just started the adventure and I was the only mage. [Women make up 51% of the population but a good D&D game is hard to find] and asked if she could come back in an hour or so. She walked over, got about 2″ from my face and said, “I’ll make it worth your while.” The Dungeon Master, not skipping a beat, said, L.E., awakens back at the inn. We left and she did.
We were both over 21 so we could drink in bars. One bar had $2 pitchers of Margueritas at happy hour. LO #1 and I would go down there, have a few drinks and throw darts. I was decent, she was horrible but she like to play. I’m right handed. One day, I started throwing left handed. LO #1 commented that my game was really off. Then she figured out that I was throwing left handed and still beating her. “Aaaaaagghhhhh….”
Last LO #1 story:
I asked LO #1 if she’d go to the Military Ball with me. She said ok but she’d never been to a formal and asked what she should wear. I told her to think of it as a Prom for college kids. When I saw her a few days later, LO #1 told me that her mother had ordered her home and they would go shopping that weekend. The following week I asked LO #1 how the shopping trip went. LO #1 said that aside from her mother making her wear underwear, it went ok. LO #1 also said that I had made her mother a happy woman as her mother never thought she would see LO #1 in a formal dress and it was something her mother could cross off her list. LO #1 was also directed to take pictures. We did and I still have them.
That was one of the best years of my life.
LE,
Your LE1 sounds like a “normal” dating experience, why LIMERENCE?
It’s fascinating, I had a couple of unforgettable, surreal nights without involving alcohol or knowing what illegal drugs’ existence. One can’t forget “derailed” experiences, since most of our life was too orderly either by choice or by “force” (in my COO).
Considering the limited time we have on earth, I’d still choose more romantic “adventures” without going through throes of limerence again. With some knowledge of it, I hope I can manage it much, much better next time; I worry that I won’t get a glimmer again or kill it too fast just by keeping the idea/concept in my head.
I saw movie “Parthenope” last night, my god, it’s packed with philosophical and psychological questions with a bit of Fellini(no gross scenes) senses. I thought you might appreciate it since it covers Italian social scenes from 1970-2023. One of its million themes is: “I do not judge you, and you do not judge me.” which is carried from the beginning to the ending of the movie, very touching. I instantly became much less judgmental, which I need more.
My French movie buddy and I discussed so many points afterwards (he watched the whole movie without realizing it’s not in English— fluently in Italian and Spanish, when I had to fix on the subtitles), but he had more questions and we still couldn’t figure out some specific lines or scenes before we agreed that it’s a movie leaving big, life questions without answers, and can be watched 2 or 3 times in a roll.
I watched the trailer for Parthenope last night, and it just looked like a movie about a girl making heads turn all over the place, maybe a rom-com. So it’s actually deeper than it appears?
SL,
That’s what I got from the preview, and I thought I was going to see some scenery of Maples as an online “tourist.”
But then unexpected and unexplained scenes came out gradually one after another (none appeared in the preview), and you can’t guess where it goes… The question to ask: if she makes all heads turn around, where her head/eye is going to turn to?
In the end, the two viewers still could not figure out everything “abstractly” or randomly said, and why the protagonist chose what she did, and what the director intends you to know and understand, in terms of sociology, psychology, philosophy, and romantic relationship for a goddess like girl/woman with her own sets of duality…. It’s not Rom-Com at all — some scenes are really weird or even creepy — Fellini style— I’d never forget them even if I want to.
Please do NOT read NYT review about it if you intend to watch it; they’d alter your own original impression. (I read it afterwards) It’s a selection for 2024 Cannes film festival.
Interesting….Now I’m curious. 🙂
SL,
I’m more curious about where/what you — a published writer, think her eyes should look/gaze at, and what your definition of Anthropology is, after seeing the movie??
Some very slow, almost surreal yet beautiful scenes (perhaps making audience to feel?) at the beginning almost made me doze off a bit…
Lovisa
As I said, I am quite comfortable talking about this among understanding adults!
As to my “head being on better” and at a steady emotional level… likely due I think to consist hits from my LO… keeping me steady but not overdosing! It makes a huge difference
LO very much knows how I feel, I have told her a few times that I do Love her
I am kind of at a “cant see the forest for the trees” view… does it sound like an EA? On some levels… I can say yes, esp about what we have told each other
My wife only knows that we are good friends and do walks and talks, and I feel that she is not super happy about it… we havent spoken about if I am having an EA… not sure if I want to open that door… I am sure it would hurt her
As to a sexless marriage… well… really… it sucks
I am not happy about it… it seems have just evolved this way. About 6 or 7 … maybe longer??… years ago she said she didnt need sex anymore. Two years ago we went on a long weekend vacation, where I had HOPES of being again sexual / intimate… she said no, and that sex was painfull for her… well, that was that!
I have considered offering anything! Really, anything… swinging, playing together with other couples / women / another man with her… just to be sexual again, with a human being
She is not interested in counselling
It is a TERRIBLE thing for a marriage to become non-intimate… Do NOT let it, if you can help it, infect your own married, any of you!
I have been rejected enough times that I have given up… its hurtful to me, and has destroyed my self esteem as a sexual partner
Arghhh!!
Just a quick aside… I am not going to lie to you all.. I have not been fully open with my SO… for instance, I have very little to NO intention of hurt my SO by saying to her I have told LO that I love her… why should I hurt her for no reason?
I do feel, and from what I have read… intimate and sexually active couples may much less prone to Limerence? I feel I am looking for an Intimacy Connection
Men need intimacy and touch… maybe more than women do???
I feel “intimacy starved”
I still got limerent when my SO and I were young, but I could resist lustful thoughts much more easily. Now, in middle age—I don’t want to say too much, but let’s just say it’s a myth that men need sex/touch more than women do. Maybe if menopause takes away the sex drive, but that doesn’t happen all the time.
Serial Limerent
Thanks for weighing in!
I know for me… touch is my “love language” … and I am a “giver” and enjoy touching
And yes… menopause I am sure is a bit part of this
This breaks my heart! Of course you need intimacy. We all need intimacy. I’m sad that you’re starved right now.
Is there a socially acceptable way to get your intimacy needs met?
Lovisa….
Thanks for your kind words.
It is far less about sex, more about intimate touching that I miss giving
Not sure what you mean by “socially acceptable”, sorry
New_To_Limerence,
I was thinking EA for a bit, but two things hold me back from calling it an EA (of course I am no expert).
1. There isn’t a sexual component.
2. You aren’t being secretive.
A third thing might apply.
If you can say that you are getting more of your emotional intimacy needs met by your SO than your LO, I definitely wouldn’t call this an EA. This is just my opinion.
I have heard that menopause can cause penetration to become painful. There are other ways to engage in sexual relations that don’t include penetration. I don’t understand why your wife is unwilling to try something else.
Here is my very naive way of looking at it. My husband is very ticklish. He doesn’t want me to pet him much because “it tickles.” Petting is how I show affection because I love it. (I think I was a cat in a previous life-not really, that’s a joke). So we have come to an agreement: I get petted, but I have to remember not to reciprocate. Also, my husband didn’t understand why I like foot rubs and he didn’t like to give me foot rubs when we were first married. Now, he does it all the time. He is so used to rubbing my feet during long drives, that his hands will spontaneously do the motion even if I haven’t put my feet in his lap. He will even ask me to put my feet in his lap. I’m thinking that even though your wife has lost her interest in sex, she could still find ways to take care of your needs. That is my very naive opinion. I’m sure your wife would be quite annoyed with what I said.
Thanks for the intimacy advice. I agree completely.
Lovisa…
Yes, I know that penetration can have its own set of issue… and is not the be-all-and-end -all
Without getting graphic, oral play was Always part of our intimacy, from my side ( giving )… that option has not been discussed ( truthfully… I now FEAR rejection… soooo painful )
( and yes, my wife would be unhappy as heck about what you have said, and that I am opening to others here online )
I used to give foot rubs /legs rubs… those are off the menu now too
As to the EA question… again, I have not to my SO all the details, it would hurt her… so partly secret
But… I do enjoy the “intimacies” that I can have with LO… arm / hands / shoulder / patting her thigh as I get up from our chats at her desk ( I am often “squatting ” beside her with my head about level with her chest … I dont like standing for long ), side hugs, full body hugs, etc… as well as our close conversations
I am a very touchy person with the few people I like and trust
Rejection hurts. One can only take so much rejection before giving up.
My LO3 says that the only way to have a valued relationship is to become vulnerable. Maybe you could try some vulnerability? Maybe you could be honest with your wife: “I need intimacy, but I fear talking about it because I don’t want to get rejected and I don’t want to hurt your feelings. Do you think we could talk about it?”
That to me sounds easier to say than to do… fear of being vulnerable and rejected is a real thing with me. But I think it needs to be done
” Is there a socially acceptable way to get your intimacy needs met? ”
I am not sure what you mean, but I am open to any suggestions at this point
Interesting aside… at least in my circle of friends… besides “joking” about those of us in sexless marriages… we dont speak of it in a true sense
So far best joke I have heard:
first guy: my wife and I have hallway sex
2nd guy: whats that?
first guy: we pass each other in the hallway at home, and we each “F you ” to the other
Oh boy, that joke is sad and funny.
You mentioned…
“… fear of being vulnerable and rejected is a real thing with me.”
That makes sense because it is a real thing with almost everyone.
Sorry that I didn’t answer your question earlier. I suggested …
“ Is there a socially acceptable way to get your intimacy needs met? ”
And you didn’t understand what I meant.
I mean that you have a need for intimacy. Physical and emotional intimacy with your SO would be ideal, but your SO appears to be uninterested. There might be an alternative way to meet your needs.
I don’t know solutions. My LO2 married a woman with almost no libido. He didn’t know that he was entering a sexless marriage. His wedding night gave him a clue. She didn’t want to go to the hotel when the party died down, she wanted to help clean up instead. It’s been hard on him. Some of the things he does to cope include connecting emotionally with other people. He is really good at it! He also has a best friend who he talks to about pretty much everything. He and his wife chose a sitcom that they committed to watch so that they could spend time together. I don’t know what would help meet your needs. It looks like the LE is helping. Maybe there is something else that would help.
Thanks for telling me a little about how men talk about sexless marriages among friends. I am curious about male friendships. My SO prefers to spend his time with me. He likes his friends, but he prefers to have me with him even when he is with his friends.
Lovisa
“If you can say that you are getting more of your emotional intimacy needs met by your SO than your LO, I definitely wouldn’t call this an EA. This is just my opinion.”
Of course SO and I are close… 2 kids and 35 years together. Lots of history… good and bad
If forced to choose… SO wins over LO, no question there
But I think lack of intimacy means also in other ways we have grown apart
– I know I resent being sexually dismissed and rejected
– maybe I seem like “less of a man” because I stopped trying??
– she often seems less tolerant in other ways… maybe just how couples get after years together??
Does she know that you still desire her?
I think so yes…. but it really needs to be made clear, so she truly knows and feels it
My LO2 married a woman with almost no libido. He didn’t know that he was entering a sexless marriage. His wedding night gave him a clue. She didn’t want to go to the hotel when the party died down, she wanted to help clean up instead.
Just… wow.
It’s been hard on him. He also has a best friend who he talks to about pretty much everything.
That would be really good( I don’t have such a person in my life these days… I did when I was younger )
He and his wife chose a sitcom that they committed to watch so that they could spend time together.
We have done that with some shows, yes, and its nice to be together!
How long have they been married now?
I know for us… we were pretty active first 15 or 20 years… It all kinda faded out when she turned about 55… then 100% done for about last several years ( and for more context… she is older than I am, she is 68 )
It looks like the LE is helping.
Helping sorta / kinda… I really am enjoying being with LO… but really, I am aware I have altered brain chemistry and neural paths with her… and she is married / young / leaving in a year or so / and… I have a wife!
Thanks for telling me a little about how men talk about sexless marriages among friends. I am curious about male friendships.
Most men I have found do NOT like to really dig into that subject… its a minefield full of sadness and shame and feeling inadequate …. and eventually bitterness towards women in general… which I dont care to listen to
My SO prefers to spend his time with me. He likes his friends, but he prefers to have me with him even when he is with his friends.
This is actually VERY sweet and lovely to hear!
There really are NO options unless with my wife
I will NOT get a gf on the side… and really, it would have to be an emotionally connected relationship, NOT just casual and for sex alone… I want the true Intimacy and mutual desire … I know, sounds greedy! But remember I what it is like.
So… I am pretty sure thats it for me… what I have now with SO is it
My LO2 has been married for a little over 30 years. His sexless marriage was an open discussion at our office back when we worked together. He still talks about it openly. I don’t know his wife well. I often wonder if she knows how openly her husband talks about her lack of libido.
It makes sense that men wouldn’t want to talk about such a painful subject. I really don’t know why my LO2 is so open about it.
That is quite an age-gap between you and your wife: eight years?
I’m not 55 and I can’t predict the future, but I don’t intend to lose physical intimacy with my husband. I wonder if loss of desire is common for women when they turn 55.
Like I said, it sounds like you have your head on your shoulders.
Lovisa –
” My LO2 has been married for a little over 30 years.” he has stayed 30 years in a marriage that was basically sexless from the start??
“His sexless marriage was an open discussion at our office back when we worked together. He still talks about it openly. I don’t know his wife well. I often wonder if she knows how openly her husband talks about her lack of libido.” Open to much / all of the other staff? Or just with you? I am guessing that much like me… he is comfy talking about it… esp with you
“It makes sense that men wouldn’t want to talk about such a painful subject. I really don’t know why my LO2 is so open about it.” Really, when men get rejected by the spouses… either often or pretty much all the time… it become a painful NIGHTMARE for we men who love and care and are attracted to our spouses ( and who refuse to cheat on them )… your intimate sex life just… is gone. I cannot say this strongly enough… I feel now like a lesser man, empty without it… and for me, personally, I am again going to state it this way… I want to touch and caress and pleasure a partner… I MISS doing that
“That is quite an age-gap between you and your wife: eight years?” I think I gave a wrong number at some point… I am 65 wife is 68
———————————————-
On a more positive note ( if it is positive ) my LO messaged me this afternoon, its ALWAYS nice when she reaches out.. and we had a nice chat about some food she had made for me last week… a very pleasant “hit” of dopamine from that ( now I am “stabilized” you might say )
Yep, he stayed in his mostly sexless marriage for 30 years. He is a very religious man.
LO2 talks openly about his sexless marriage. I don’t know who he wouldn’t talk to about it. It was an open topic for most everyone at our office back in the day. I suspect that he talked less to me about it than the guys, but we all knew. I found out about it from someone else. One of the guys came in my office, “Lovisa, I need a female opinion about something. If LO2 hasn’t had sex in 18 months, is he justified in pleasuring himself?” I was surprised by the question. This man suggested that we visit LO2’s office for more information which we did. LO2 explained his wife’s low libido and he admitted that he feels guilty for desiring her. It was quite a conversation. If I’m being honest, I resented LO2’s wife. I still resent her. I think she is selfish.
I’m sorry that you’re suffering. Your desire to pleasure a partner makes sense. It’s sweet. Thank you for putting your pain into words. It helps me understand your perspective.
Thanks for clarifying the age-gap. I don’t know why I thought you were 60.
Cool that you had an exchange with your LO. It sounds lovely.
I want to ask you something. One time my LO3 said that he sometimes forgets that his relationship with his wife isn’t just about sex. What might he mean?
Hi Lovisa
still
“LO2 explained his wife’s low libido and he admitted that he feels guilty for desiring her.”
Guilty for desiring his own wife?? I still get mind blanking “shivers” when I look at my wife.. truly they used to be Delicious… now they feel like …. I dont know?
“One time my LO3 said that he sometimes forgets that his relationship with his wife isn’t just about sex. What might he mean?” most importantly for me ( I am really all about context ) how did this come up in conversation??
really high sex drive? they might not have any other “connections”? did / does he enjoy her company? ( I really like spending time with my SO )
This is so cute!
“ I still get mind blanking “shivers” when I look at my wife.. truly they used to be Delicious”
It makes sense that you feel conflicted about those “shivers” now.
Unfortunately, I don’t remember the context when LO3 made that statement. I also don’t know if he likes spending time with his wife. I think he does. I know that he likes running with her. I’m pretty sure that he likes being with her.
then I would say that LO3 needed / needs to connect with with his wife as a friend and life companion, and talk with her more ( was / is he still having and enjoying sex with her? )
wait… are you trying to “trick” me into looking differently at myself and SO??
🙂
By the way… there are really open and interesting topics that you all had in your work space! That would not be good where I work! As it is, I am surprised that HR hasn’t come after me regarding me and LO!!
Hi New_To_Limerence,
I don’t know much about LO3’s relationship with his wife. He rarely talks about her. When he does talk about her, it is positive. I heard from a member of his staff that she is bossy. The man who told me that was kind of annoyed with her at the time so I don’t know if she is typically bossy or if it was just an incident.
It’s funny that you think I’m smart enough to manipulate you into a better understanding of your situation by bringing attention to my LO3. I’m not that smart, but thanks for the compliment.
Yes, we had unusually open discussions at my office. HR never had issues with our conversations (maybe because I was HR, hehehe). I think our openness stemmed from the environment that our president created. He is very talented at creating a team.
Lovisa,
I’m thinking that even though your wife has lost her interest in sex, she could still find ways to take care of your needs.
No, no… unless it is something that she desires to do, I dont want it!
I dont need to feel like its a chore, or an “unpleasant task” for her. 🙁
Thats a huge turn-off for me… I would refuse!
This really isnt about sex… put crudely, I can do that for myself… I want Intimate Touching!!!! And Partner Pleasuring!
Sorry I am NOT yelling at you, just into the Universe!!!
—————————————–
I am coming to think LO represents another type of Intimacy to me, one that I enjoy and crave ( and our spontaneous hug three months ago re-routed my brain and now I am addicted to her )… luckily for me we are close friends
Yes, lucky that you can have a friendship with your LO.
I appreciate your openness. It sounds like you miss pleasing your wife more than you miss being pleased by her. Are there other ways that you can please her?
I am reminded of an incident with LO2 that I probably shouldn’t share, but I will.
Leading up to Valentine’s Day 2022 (I think it was 2022), LO2 mentioned to me and our mutual friend that he dreads Valentine’s Day because he fails at it every year. We brainstormed ways that LO2 could be successful at Valentine’s Day. This went on for a few days, then LO2 told us that his wife wanted to go shopping at a specific store. He was delighted that he could take her shopping where she wanted to go. He anticipated and started looking forward to Valentine’s Day. On Valentine’s Day, Mrs. LO2 didn’t feel like shopping. She said, “Let’s just go for icecream instead.” LO2 was disappointed, but he was still happy that he could take his wife out for icecream. After dinner, Mrs LO2 said, “I need to get up early tomorrow because I’m going swimming with a friend so I’m going to bed early.” LO2 was very hurt. No icecream and no date for him. He spent the evening reading a manual. He was sad. We talked about it in a group text. I wondered if his wife had any idea how hurt he was. He wanted to do something nice for her and she wouldn’t let him.
I will let you know that mentioning that incident LO2 told you about…. it is actually very relatable.. not just to me, but many men ( not always, but typically “hopeful “the Valentine’s Day planners… hopeful because we want to make our SO’s happy )
Those 3 little words… “He was sad” I feel that for him
On our long weekend vacation a couple of years ago…
We would see many happy looking and affectionate couples
We did enjoy our stay, and had some lovely meals, and even danced a couple of dances
I brought up that I was hoping we could be intimate / have sex… I even said “lets be like when we were dating”… I was just told that not going to happen… I felt myself just look down, say ” understand” 🙁 and let it go
I did however get chastised a bit because I did NOT magically figure out that she want to go out one afternoon on a Lake Excursion… for any of the fairer sex reading this… Men Cannot Read Minds
I think I need a good cry now ( not very manly of me I know )
Oh, that’s sad. Cry all you want. Lots of men cry. It is an effective release.
Yeah, I’m probably close to being on top of the list of crying middle aged men, here in the forum..
😭😭
NTL, I wanted to let you know how it feels on the other side of that equation. I’ve hung in a relationship longer than I should have. Maybe something could have been saved if we had had a ‘break’ (living apart) sooner. I’m sorry in advance if this is hard to hear.
What the woman feels when the partner makes romantic plans for Valentine’s, when from her side, the romantic relationship has been over a long time ago… Guilt for not wanting him! You want to want him but don’t. And then you become apprehensive (I hesitate to say ‘afraid’) of those moments when you will have to be alone with him. Because he will have expectations. So you avoid those at all costs. You are not doing it to be mean, but because you can’t see another way, limited as it may be. That is what you see when you see the SO dodging out of plans at the last minute. I wish I could offer you a solution to this issue, but for me the only one I have found is calling it quits. If you love someone, set them free. If it was meant to be, they will find their way back..?
I really don’t see what the ‘wanting’ partner in this scenario can do to make it better. The more he tries, the more he will be pushed away. There is advice on the internet about how to take expectations for sex completely off the table and concentrate on other things for a long enough while. So you might still want to check that out. But I think even that approach requires a preceding period of being apart for it to work.
I think it’s only natural that we won’t want, or want to be with, just one person all our lives. Your (collective you) previous relationships ended at one point, what evidence did you have that this wouldn’t?
I sometimes feel like a teenager, in that I can’t imagine what life will be like, or what I will want, in 30 years… They say you will want to have a companion by your side in old age. But 30 years is a long time to wait for your relationship to turn better. And there is still no guarantee that they will be there at that point.
I know there is room in this world for different kinds of relationships or partnerships, and that desires wax and wane over time. But then the expectations for both parties should be similar or at least spoken aloud and agreed upon. If one person wants a romantic or sexual relationship, and the other doesn’t, then it would be fair for the ‘checked out’ party to call it quits. I mean, how long do you want to bang your head against a wall?
Disclaimer: Despite my use of the word ‘you’ (collective you), this is not meant to be direct advice to you, but just how I see these type of situations.
Totally agree with Trifles here. I also don’t see the need to promise a lifetime together. If we want to grow and evolve but our partner doesn’t, we will be held back. If your partner is with you on the journey, that’s fantastic!
I haven’t read all of your posts NTL, but I wonder if your relationship has taken on more traditional roles. I can’t remember if you said you have children. Anyway, I have seen some great information on social media from one guy called Jimmy on Relationships and another called Zacmentalloadcoach
They both talk about women pulling away in relationships and what the causes might be. They speak mostly to men but can also explain really well how women may be contributing to the issues within a relationship. I have no idea if they discuss the issues you’re having but until I listened to what they said, I wasn’t able to articulate why after a few years together, I never wanted intimacy with my ex.
Hello LWL. I used to be a regular on this site during my first LE about 5-6 years ago. I’m now in the midst of LE number 2. I never thought I’d be a serial limerent, but I guess here I am. LO1 was a person I worked with. It was a brutal experience. I’m married, so was she. There were times I thought it was mutual limerence. There were some very uncomfortable discussions where we both admitted feelings. But for the most part, it was all a game of pretend: pretend there isn’t an attraction, pretend we don’t have feelings, etc. LO1 was the classic LO: lots of uncertainty, mixed signals, she loved the flattery but would draw back when I pursued. It took nearly two years for the limerence to end. She eventually left the place I work and I’ve seen her several times since. She even sent me a text out of the blue one day saying she still thought about me everyday. Whatever, I was already over it by then. I swore I would never fall into limerence again. I know the signs, symptoms, and characteristics, mostly thanks to this site.
LO2. She came to work here over a year ago. She was my assistant. She was very different from LO1 in personality. Very outgoing and friendly. She was even more physically attractive than LO1 but I didn’t feel the glimmer. Not at all. I could tell she liked me, just because she was always around me and talking to me. She loves to text and DM. It became exhausting. Nothing inappropriate but it was just a flood of communication from her all the time. One day she made the very forward move of asking to have a drink with me after work. I’m married and she’s not. So obviously, there are huge problems with that. But I made the mistake of agreeing to it. I still didn’t feel anything for her so I thought it was safe. It was more to get her off my back. It then became a habit that was very hard to break – lunches, a drink or two after work. I found myself having a hard time saying no to her. I told myself we were just friends, there was never anything inappropriate between us. No intrusive thoughts about her. And we would never hang out more than an hour or so because either we needed to get back to the office or I needed to get home.
She eventually started dating a guy and I even met him a couple of times. I never felt any jealousy or anything like that. I was happy for her. But she still loved to hang out with me, often being the one to suggest it. I figured she is just a very social person. Side note: I’m not. But I got to the point where I found comfort being with her. Not in a romantic way but just as close friends. As a person who doesn’t really have a lot of close friends (or any), she quickly became my best friend, outside of my SO. Slowly things became so familiar between us that I found myself comfortable telling her anything. This was never the case with LO1, as I was mostly a blubbering mess whenever I talked to her. As I told LO2 several times, I saw her as a sister figure to me: extremely close but not romantically.
Several weeks ago, she left for another job in our same city. I actually helped her by serving as a reference. We had drinks after her last day, which was fine but I cried that evening when I got home. Well that was unexpected. Why was I crying? I told myself it was just because I was saying goodbye to a good friend. Okay, makes sense. We then decided to go out one more time. She had not yet started her job and was free the entire day. I took off half the day and met her for drinks. Just us, for an entire afternoon, on the town. I knew that was trouble. But I wanted to see her again. We both got pretty drunk within a few hours. I don’t even know where the time went. Before I knew it, it was dark out and close to 7pm. She kept wanting to go to different places. I confided some really personal things about my insecurities and career frustrations. At one point, I started to cry and she immediately hugged me. Her comfort felt so good to me. After more drinking, I started to become a little handsy. She wasn’t stopping me and actually seemed like she didn’t mind it. It still wasn’t overtly sexual, just holding hands and putting my arm around her shoulder, touching her hair, etc. At one point, however, I asked her if she would kiss me. I was incredibly drunk at this point and she said no, probably because she realized that and knew I would regret it later. We parted ways not long after that. I was extremely emotional and upset later that night. Ever since that night, I’ve been consumed with thoughts about her and very depressed. I talked to her since and even saw her once for lunch. I apologized profusely and she said everything was fine. In her usual way, she laughed everything off like it was no big deal. She even added something like: “if it made me uncomfortable, do you think I’d still be wanting to see you and hang out with you?” She promised we would still see each other since we still work in the same town. But the past few days, she has drastically decreased the amount of texting. It’s almost to the point of ghosting me. I’m so hurt and embarrassed. I can’t believe I fell for it again. I told myself for months I was not becoming limerent for her because it never felt like limerence. It only became limerence right at the very end, probably due to my drunken, inappropriate behavior.
I just assumed all LE begin in a similar way. For me, LE1 was a slow, gradual process. Coming out of it was as well. LE2 on the other hand, basically happened overnight. Although I wonder if I was limerent for her all along but was in denial? I suppose it’s good that she no longer works with me so no contact should be easier, especially now that she seems to be ghosting me. Has anyone else experienced different LEs that began in totally different ways?
Oh my gosh, @B
…I am a serial limerent. I’ve engaged in limerence probably since…oh…Middle school? And I’m near 50 now. Truly, I know it is hell. I know it is frustrating, and can make you doubt your own mind, your own motivations, your desires. It can make you mistrust yourself, at a core level.
I also have SO. And have for …almost 20 years. This has not stopped my limerences. Actually, if there is someone glimmering within a 3 mile radius, you can pretty much guarantee I am on it. I’m like a moth to a flame. Always looking for new options, never acting on them…but getting, somehow, “involved”.
First let me say I am very sorry this LE2 ever crossed your path. Her behavior towards you, her handling of you…it’s not right. From what you’ve outlined…I have to say…she is playing havoc with you, married or not. Whatever she is doing, it is not cool.
She sounds like a manipulator. It sounds like you, accidentally, got caught in her net. I will say, the drinking does not help it.
I would say…the crying. The crying may be because this is intense for you. You had quite a high-octane night with her. Lots of emotions. You are bottoming out, hormonally right now, and that is why you are crying. You don’t have the mental strength right now to pull yourself up, you are depleted, emotionally, and hormonally.
I don’t mean to minimize. Please know I am going through similar, right now. And have been through many, many times. I am also trying to sort it out. But, as an observer…I will offer the following — and please know it is said with care, not with judgement. I feel for everything you are enduring.
Don’t rake yourself over the coals. You did your best. You really did. You tried to be mindful! But this person…she’s intense. And you fell into step with that….maybe try to take the next week to really care for yourself, notice when you are feeling overwhelmed by guilt, take a step back, if you are….and just be kind to yourself.
You are among friends, here.
I recently came back here, as I am going through LE #3 and it’s a particularly painful one. But, I think I’m a little further along in my “progress” than you are (maybe a few weeks)…but trust me, a couple weeks ago I was on here, melting down, just like you. 🙂
With care,
CSC
oops and @B
I’m sorry if I also sounded hypercritical of your LO. But, the whole DM/texting you non-stop thing…and then…I’m sorry, but asking a married man for a drink after work?…No.
To me, it does sound like she has problems with boundaries…both her own boundaries, and other people’s (uh…yours? whoever she was dating?) Yes, you agreed to go out with her socially, and you engaged in a friendship with her, and a bit more. But, *she* could have drawn a line at ANY time, and did not.
It sounds, to me, like she needs drama, feeds on mixed situations. I am so sorry to sound so intense here, but…my goodness, the more I think about it, I would say the best advice is RUN. From what you say, it does not sound like you were limerent from the start. It sounds like she trampled over your boundaries, did not set her own, and you got mired in it. You can get out, and it does seem to be a blessing she is moving on into a different work situation. Time to do a bit of ghosting of your own, IMHO.
I am a female – so that’s my take. 🙂
@CSC, Thank you for your comments and insight. This may sound like a stupid question, but how does one care for oneself? I hear people say that all the time but I really have no idea how to do it. I hate myself so much most of the time and deal with a lot of low self-esteem/self worth issues. I’m sure a lot of this is the guilt from keeping these things from my SO (and nearly cheating). But I’ve struggled with low self esteem for years it seems, pre-dating even my first LE.
And I’ll clarify a few things. Regarding her lack of boundaries/her SO: she would often tell me that she would always tell her boyfriend/SO about whenever she and I would hang out. That always perplexed me, as I assume he would be insanely jealous of her constantly having drinks with me, another guy. But she had a very casual, care-free attitude to the entire thing (and apparently he did as well), and she would wonder why I never told my SO that we were hanging out. I was always embarrassed about that and felt judged by her for essentially lying to my SO. And I should mention LO2 was married once previously. It ended in divorce after she cheated on her SO. She admitted this to me once, and that she always sabotages her own relationships, maybe out of guilt that she doesn’t deserve to find a good guy. But it’s certainly strange that she was the one to say “no” to me the other night in response to my drunken advances. Maybe she knows where to draw the line for herself because she’s been through infidelity before, being the one who did the cheating? Of course, my low self-esteem tells me she only said no because she never found me physically attractive to begin with and always saw me as just a friend. Ugh.
Another thing – after the other night, I came very close to disclosing to her. I was honest with her that I was dealing with a lot of turbulent emotions about her leaving, and that I felt I was grieving the loss of a very close friendship, as well as feeling embarrassed for making advances to her. I’ve also told her I’m feeling jealous of the new work friendships she’s making at her new job (several guys) because she told me they are already hanging out socially outside the office. That didn’t take long. And she knows about my first LE. She would sometimes give me sh!t about it in joking way. I want to say to her: congratulations, you’re now LO2, are you happy now? You mentioned her being a manipulator, I wonder if she did it all on purpose? Like she knew I was prone to limerence so why not see if she can make me fall for her? That would be diabolical.
One last thing, during one of our most personal discussions, she told me that she thought I wasn’t happy in my marriage. I didn’t take offense at the time but told her I disagreed, because at the time I truly didn’t feel unhappy. That stuck with me though. I still think about it, more often now than before. What happy person would do all these things and conceal it from their SO? I’m beginning to think she was right and that kills me.
Hi @B
You are really, really going through it. I totally understand the “How do I care for myself” question. If you could see my journal – it was during my current LE (it’s a bad one!) that I realized, I did not know how to care for myself, either.
I realized…I don’t even think I HAVE a self. It was frightening. I realized I was very, very far from a sense of myself. And while I never thought of myself as someone with “low self esteem” I had to wonder if maybe….I had “NO self esteem” as in…a hole where that sense of self should be.
I have been on a quest to discover myself for just under a year now. And, it’s coincided with my LE. So, I can say, sometimes, a serious LE can be a path to self-discovery….and personally, I do feel that is true. It’s like limerences are messages – somewhere, deep within, a need is not being met. We are putting LO in place of that need, we are badly confused…but still, that need is there.
IDK if your LO was doing it on purpose…but…it does sound like she was careless around boundaries of any sort. Yours…her own. Her former spouse’s.
Anyway – I have some good news: Whether it was purposeful/intentional or not is actually not your problem, it’s hers. She’s the one who is going to have to live with herself, and see the results of how she treats others. She will have to live with that forever. She doesn’t have a choice, because she is herself. You, on the other hand, can step away. Or, if step to the side…let it pass…and know, you are not actually involved. That problem is hers.
Whether you are happy or not, whether you are a happy/unhappy person or not, is none of her business, and her opinion is just that, her opinion, on the matter. She is not the one who gets to say if you are happy or unhappy, guilty, not guilty, doing wrong, not doing wrong….You are here, seeing clarity and a place to rest for a minute while your mind calms down. That is ok. 🙂
I would say, for myself, the first ingredient of “self care” has been to establish a thing that is really a no-lose situation for myself. I can’t lose. I can only win, by doing it. Just one you can find, is enough to try. The bar can be set VERY low. Here are some of mine:
– I will not rush. Nobody can rush me. NO.BO.DY.
– I will be quieter. I will not share everything I think. I reserve the right to observe, to let others fill the air if they want….maybe not to talk at all! Maybe to be a little mysterious, even! (this one is kind of fun, mildly addictive!)
– I will pay attention to my body. If my chest feels tight during an interaction I will breathe a few times before I respond. Hell, I may not respond at all.
– I will make sure I eat enough decent food so I have the strength to deal with what I need to deal with.
– I will do my laundry / clean my car / clean my phone / get new socks (whatever– pick a little kinda hygeine thing…counts as self care)
Do any of those – reminder: just one is ok! — feel like something you might consider, tomorrow? (maybe take today as a down-day, you may not be in a state to do much, today. 🙂
I know these sound a little crazy, but I have been on this journey of figuring my way out of the no-self hole for a while. I am still a limerent, but, I am a more equipped one. I haven’t had an epiphany, but I have managed to claw out of the hole, and am happily clinging to the side, catching my breath.
My feeling is, whether I am unhappy or happy in my long-term-relationship, I cannot lose if I develop my self. This is outside of LO or their opinion of me, this is purely within.
I hope this is helpful…You have been through the ringer. It is ok to pull aside, take your time, and know, you are here, and you would not be here if you were not a decent, conscientious person.
With understanding, CSC
oh! And @B I almost forgot I meant to respond to *this* little nugget of yours:
“Of course, my low self-esteem tells me she only said no because she never found me physically attractive to begin with and always saw me as just a friend. Ugh.”
this is something I think about a great deal. I honestly used to say to myself “limerence is love for ugly people”…because it is so private, so full of guilt, and so desperate…I was convinced, “I must be an ugly, undesirable person…this is my pathetic version of trying to get love.”
Then I went on youtube and started watching Following Fenna (found via this website, Dr L mentioned her content).
I have to say, she gives great advice, but the FIRST takeaway, for me? The woman is drop dead gorgeous. And, guess what? She is a limerent! She had an LE that altered her life, and is doing her work because she’s been through it…The fact, honestly, that she is so good-looking, made a lightbulb go on for me….there’s nothing wrong with me, either. I’m just in a hard situation.
I realized, anyone can get into this. Old, young, supermodel, mere mortal…anyone. No, you are not unattractive, you’re in a really difficult situation and it’s taking a toll. LImerence is insane and It could undermine anyone’s sense of themselves!
@B,
Hi. I’m had two LEs while married, and only learned about limerence half way into the second LE. I was unhappy during the first LE, which I wrote off as such. Ex found out about me having feelings for another man, forgave me the first time. The second one happened unexpectedly from a man who kept complimenting me and sort of pursing me even though he knew I was married. I was happilly married at that time, but limerence crept in and made my life a living hell. So, it’s not always true that limerence happens because one is unhappy in a marriage. Or that limerence happens to unattractive people. They just happen to be married to someone who does not (or no longer) causes limerent euphoria/emotions. I had a massive amount of guilt and cognitive dissonance, so I sought counseling. That counselor recommended I not tell my spouse because she wanted me to recover without hurting him. My ex then went behind my back, found my journal, and read about my issues, and essentially divorced me because of it. My counselor and I suspect that he would have reacted a similar way even if I had told him what I was going through. But we’ll never know.
I tell you this because if you feel like you could tell your spouse and she’d be understanding, that is ideal. And getting counseling for all of your self-esteem issues and even limerence issues could help you, too. But limerence is a type of addiction; it will always feel good, whether you’re happy or not in a marriage. Now that people like you and I are prone to serial limerence, I would recommend having an action plan for what YOU will do to maintain your own boundaries. We can’t blame the LEs because at the end of the day we have to take responsibility for maintaining our own boundaries, and not worry about how the other person feels. It’s a matter of self- and marriage -preservation. Had I known this, I would have perhaps acted differently in my marriage.
I hope you find that works for you. Mine will be (once married again) to not let myself get too close to any men that are not my spouse, and if I do, tell my spouse, be sure hiding it can make it worse. I didn’t trust my first spouse to understand; I plan to disclose to my potential future spouse about these “intrusive thoughts” that can and have happened, and hope they will support me through them if they ever happen again.
💙
Hi @B,
I can’t really identify with your situation, as our LEs are completely different in nature.
I can say that I feel like the attraction this Woman has to you is about validating herself and enjoying the ego trip she gets in fooling around with a married man. A lot of Women are drawn to what they cannot have. This person doesn’t seem particularly super evil to me because clearly you could’ve ended up in her backseat. Doing you know what, but obviously she had a boundary for that. Not saying that it’s cool to do really any of it while you have a SO though.. Her SO may not care what she’s doing. You just never know with People sometimes.
Be grateful it didn’t go any farther.
Her take on you not being happy in your marriage was probably somewhat true because now you are calling her a LO. Having a lack of self worth, telling her your problems, all that liquid courage you spilled out is derived from somewhere. I know I didn’t fall into limerence because everything was going like I wanted.. You need to dig deeper into what is not right in your relationship or yourself and begin working on it.
The other posters here have some good advice that I won’t add to, but do keep reaching out because having this community to confide in is helpful..
MJ… ( nice?? ) to know I am not alone in crying
Trifles -What the woman feels when the partner makes romantic plans for Valentine’s, when from her side, the romantic relationship has been over a long time ago… Guilt for not wanting him! You want to want him but don’t. And then you become apprehensive (I hesitate to say ‘afraid’) of those moments when you will have to be alone with him. Because he will have expectations. So you avoid those at all costs. You are not doing it to be mean, but because you can’t see another way, limited as it may be. That is what you see when you see the SO dodging out of plans at the last minute. I wish I could offer you a solution to this issue, but for me the only one I have found is calling it quits.
This all sounds VERY familiar to me… I think I was / am sensing this from my wife… so now I get to add I was making her “apprehensive ” to the list. Maybe some of her behavior esp when I touch her, is that.. she doesnt want me to get the “wrong” ideas
Divorce is NOT an option with me at all…
I still love her, and I like being with her
Financially… not possible at all
we have 2 grown kids
CMC – thanks for your feedback, appreciated … I will look into those resources, thanks
On a personal, good day, side note… LO and I had a nice 1 hr walk, at end of which she kind of nervously asked me not to “visit” her and her desk any more for non-work related chats ( she says she is worried about how it looks )… she asked me if I was mad 🙂 hard to get mad at the cute nervous face… I told her, no but a bit sad… and that I would 100% not go see her at her desk anymore… THIS made her “cutely” exasperated with me 🙂 gosh, she is fun to play with! No more desk visits IS sad, but I still get walks!
And… my SO and I talked… she is open to working on more intimacy and even sex play!
Wow! That is big news!
@NTL
Did she tell you anything about how she was feeling? Do you know why she wasn’t wanting intimacy with you? I hope that you now have some understanding of her pulling back. That is a fantastic breakthrough if you can improve your relationship through respectful communication!
CMC…
No, we only talked about it for a minute… it came in the middle of a larger discussion… I admit I am a bit jaded about this, so we shall see…. but its a start
I will say… I do NOT AT ALL want to be in Limerence…. LO intrudes into my thought CONSTANTLY… I wake in the night thinking about her.
When this goes away ( please, let it go away! ) I will NEVER allow this to happen to me again… this is indeed the worst pain I have ever had to endure
I now have empathy for any addict ( drugs, alcohol, gambling etc )
I never understood before… why cannot an alcoholic have for instance just one drink, of even a small sip?
I cannot just have a small sip of LO… even our walks are not enough… I crave her company constantly… it is madness.
If it helps any, as an alcoholic, I can have none or all I want. When the situation calls for my sobriety I can do it without too much issue, but it is all or nothing with me. So needing to be sober I cannot drink anything. I at least learned from my addiction how to tackle limerence. And NC was the only way. No calls, texts, checking her social media, asking about her from others. I knew it was all or nothing. All; chase her down confess my feelings and endanger my marriage. Or nothing; give it all up. It’s been 3 years now and not a single contact made. But everyone’s timetable is different in how limerence progresses.
Adam…
Thanks for your reply
I have never had any addictive tendencies previously… having my mind taken over is a horrible new experience
The mood swings, crying to happiness ( when with LO ) and pretty much constant longing and pain… I this is not the normal me.
I am developing coping strategies tho
“No more desk visits IS sad, but I still get walks!”
“I will say… I do NOT AT ALL want to be in Limerence…. LO intrudes into my thought CONSTANTLY… I wake in the night thinking about her.”
“I cannot just have a small sip of LO… even our walks are not enough… I crave her company constantly… it is madness.”
If you are actively trying to eliminate the LE, (meaning LO) those walks are going to impede your progress.. I understand the pull and the attraction there is great but you’re having a breakthrough with SO now. Playing both sides of the fence will be difficult.. And you sound waaay too over-the-top for LO still.
NTL, while I felt very happy for your news about SO, I couldn’t quite articulate what bothered me in your comment, but MJ nailed it. I think this is a case of “you can’t have your Kate and Edith too” (when limerence is involved).
LO is your fantasy escape from your situation at home. You can’t be crawling for the escape hatch while at the same time tending to the situation inside.
Otherwise I would say this is very promising news about your SO! Could you see LO (walks and talks, etc) as an impediment to fixing things with SO? I know that in the thick of limerence this is much easier said than done.
NtL,
Maybe you can concentrate on a proper plan to get closer with your SO.
If you haven’t had intercourse for a long time I can imagine the thought of it would be extremely daunting for your SO and maybe physically painful too. Take it slow.
I found this article with step by step advice to get intimacy back, that you could suggest to your SO.
(I know you don’t want an affair with your LO so maybe don’t show the whole article to your SO !! It’s just the week by week advice I thought could be helpful)
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/feb/11/im-tempted-to-have-an-affair-with-my-wifes-friend-philippa-perry
Hello everyone. I am here sharing an update.
I am doing better and better everyday. There has been NC with her for some time, and this is helping. Even the effects of perceived negative LO contact were mild, as compared to earlier.
Its like my limerence switch has been turned off, hope it sticks.
Having said that, my mind still tries to pull tricks, as I get these urges to seek her. These urges come with some associated anxiety, kind of like a pressure to contact her or seek her.
However, I do not act on these urges, and tend to feel better almost instantaneously. Amazingly deceptive, my mind seems to be.
All in all, I am making steady progress.
Thanks for listening.
@ABCD
This is wonderful to hear! May I ask (purely out of curiosity) if the times you get contact urges are random, or, if there’s some triggering event you’ve identified?
I am still up to my armpits in my own LE. It’s…taking on some interesting nuances and I’m just going with it….But, in my past limerent episodes, after going NC, I found the same as you…the difference in my state of mind was like a switch had been flippd, too! Actually, after a while, my limerences for those former LO’s completely vanished. Like, if I ran into them…there would be no attraction at all…no anxiety, even.
Kudos to you for taking that pressure/anxiety and just riding it out, not acting upon it. If it weren’t so difficult, it must actually be kind of fascinating for you to go through those spells!…and come out on the other side.
Thank you for the inspiration!
CSC
Hi CSC. As of now, the urges to contact her seem to be random. I was hooked to contact with her, and my mind is probably just trying to get a quick fix even now.
We never really talked much, mostly small talk. It was more about flirting and eye contact, initiated by her in the beginning of LE, and then by both of us. At least that’s how read the whole thing.
Anyway, coming to the present, yes, I do feel good about resisting the urge to contact. Each resistance is a win.
I wish you the best, as you navigate your LE CSC!
Hi ABCD,
still doing well!
I think these urges are pure habit. Maybe some part of you is in need of a dopamine hit or simply distraction and used to go to thoughts of her?
I use the opportunity for a little update from myself-
I saw my XLO last week for a short time
and was gripped by a sudden sadness when he left, which reminded me of you.
I mean it is a bit sad to say goodbye to the warm limerent feelings, and in a way to a perfect and loved person that never existed in this version. But the good thing about my XLO is that he can be relied on reminding me of the „never existed“ part without fail.
I saw once more that I’m really very important to him and that he makes an effort, but it’s somehow always some effort that I don’t need and leaving out stuff that I need. I know, friendship isn’t about getting needs met and I might sound selfish. But he really extraordinarily manages to miss the mark every time. I can see that without rancor now. It’s ok, it’s just how he is. But it’s a bit too little for a deep friendship from my side.
Also, just now he did it again- it would be too much too explain, but he showed again that he‘s socially inept and takes stuff from me/my family for granted which is simply rude, but it would never occur to him. So, the sadness has vanished very quickly, and I’m sure to do the right thing to water this friendship down a bit simply to avoid getting annoyed by him. Better to have less contact and then be glad to see him.
ABCD, I enjoy reading your little updates which all seem to be heading in the right direction, even if some bumps in the road along the way. Keep on. It’s good for those stuck to read about.
Mila,
It’s a bit sad when a close friend takes you a bit for granted or inept in delivering on the friendship. It seems you have it under control and limit the interactions so you stay on good terms as I’m fairly sure he does value you and your friendship. He is just the way he is. He isn’t gonna change.
The good thing is you are out of the LE and in control.
And you stay friends still – that is a major win !
Maybe not a perfect friend, but a friend post limerence is a success against the odds of limerence rules!
I will give my update soon. I’m not out of it (the thing that triggered your LE is gonna happen in my case too)….
Hi Imho,
I‘m very sure he values me and the friendship, more than I do, maybe. He is just not capable to see what would really be good or nice for me while I know exactly what he likes, and somehow the balance isn’t there, which means I lost my motivation to be good or nice a bit.
I don’t want to spell it out if you don’t, but in your case , could it mean complete NC? In my case it was a given that we‘ll keep contact, how is it in yours?
In any case, change seems ahead, I guess?
But feel free to not post or post whenever you feel like it! My thoughts are with you anyway!
Thank you Mila,
I hope you have others who ‘ get you ‘ and able to fulfil the things that make you happy / content / valued.
For me, yes, pending change is probably the opportunity to go NC. Im just trying to figure it out as it’s fresh news.
Thanks for your care.
Hi Imho,
let the news settle down a bit, there’s no need for action or decisions, I guess. What will come, will come and I’m sure you‘ll make the best of it.
Thanks IMHO. I wish you the very best as you handle this new event that you talk about.
Hi Mila, thanks for the update!
Yes, my urges could be pure habit. She still pops into my thoughts quite a bit, but, without causing me distress. Maybe the thoughts will go down also, eventually.
I am sorry that you felt sad after meeting xLO. Hope that you are feeling better now. However, I am glad that you have a lot more clarity with how to proceed with respect to xLO.
I seem to be doing well, no reaching out to LO, and no reaching out from her side. So, things are quiet on both fronts.
Lets see how I hold up if/when we have the next interaction. The previous recent ones bothered me a little, but they were not overwhelming.
I will let you all know how it goes.
Have a great weekend, all!
https://link.tubi.tv/Z4q6pSMFTQb — Casanova, Last Love
Based on the this movie, the legendary Casanova’s last love was in limerence with a British prostitute — he did not get her either in body or mind ( heart?), and was left with lasting bitterness until his death?
I believe/think more now that limerence is one of natural human conditions that have fallen on some men and women, regardless their social and economic status or their talents and skills in seduction art.
All psychological and physical symptoms of limerence equally apply to active limerents. It would bring a sense of security and serenity if we clearly understand and accept this bitter and sweet lot.
I have little/no regrets left for my last LE, which has truly awakened and revived me….🪫
@snow
Yeah, I too have been amazed at the similarities across all the different stories I’ve heard, and read. And, the feelings that limerents experience…so similar…even in their stages.
I suppose it’s how we handle them that is the difference…for me, knowing there are others was the first step in trying to come to terms with my own state. Feeling alone, that something was wrong with me, to realizing – this is something I am suffering from…it’s not me. It’s something happening to me (and others)….then, some of the shame went away.
I’m glad you don’t have regrets for your last LE. That is where I am starting to aim, with my current one. I don’t want to regret it. I’m learning a lot from it. But, I don’t want to be stuck, either. It’s nice to know you feel awakened, revived…that is beautiful in and of itself. 🙂
CSC
CSC,
“And, the feelings that limerents experience…so similar…even in their stages.”
Limerence has its biology and neurology basis, then of course, limerence across regions and cultures would be similar. If Casanova was LE inflicted with a low class-prostitute, I definitely feel my glimmer and LE were even less stupid and blinder!
“I suppose it’s how we handle them that is the difference…”
Definitely! It depends on each limerent/limerence’s circumstance, despite LE pains are more or less similar.
“for me, knowing there are others was the first step in trying to come to terms with my own state. “
Shared similar pains could bring sufferers closer and form an empathetic community. But within the community, methodology to deal with one’s own limerence would differ; what possibly works for one may worsen another’s LE conditions.
“Feeling alone, that something was wrong with me, to realizing – this is something I am suffering from…it’s not me.”
How do you define “me”? Have to be honest here: I disagree with many definitions of “self” in this community, yours is included. But I have no intention, time or energy to debate about concept of “self” with anyone.
Based on DrL, Tunnov, Fisher, we know that limerence is NOT us, but it definitely takes place inside us, inside OUR Head! From pair-bonding desire, to Glimmer, reveres, distorted sense of LO reality, anxiety/panic attackes, meltdown.… everything occurred inside us, so Limerence is a PART of US, not from without, except LO as a catalyst.
“It’s something happening to me (and others)….then, some of the shame went away.:
One can blame cocaine as tangible vice, but one cannot accuse LO as an external devil, limerence is germinated within, depending on our DNA drives, personality and past experiences. LO, bad or good, is not to the source of our “behavior addition”. Still, biology and neurology could and should help us reduce a sense of shame, unless we’re over brainwashed by some “puritan” ideologies/religions.
“I’m glad you don’t have regrets for your last LE. “
Without going through this gigantic LE, I would not have known and understood my past and present self as I do now! I’ve matured in three years more than 3 decades prior to LE. Adversity is anyone’s best teacher, I’m totally convinced through repeated life lessons!
“It’s nice to know you feel awakened, revived…that is beautiful in and of itself. 🙂”
The word “awakened, revived” in my case means that it has brought me onto Jung’s individuation path, which has “evolved” me to what I am becoming…. such awakening, revival, and renewal have involved tons of tough, time-consuming study, solitude/reflections/meditation, physical/emotional pains, fear/ courage to speak up, wrestle with my own shadowy “demons” (in addition to someone else’s)… Not sure how “beautiful” these are, as you put it…. The only regret I have is that I did not find LwL much earlier…
Has your “coffee sharing” taken place yet? I hope you have more inner peace nowadays.
Hi @snow
Yes, I see what you mean about the evolution you have experienced. I love how you put that. Evolution is a great word for what you are describing, to help me understand.
I am using my current struggles to focus on mindfulness. For my own exploration of self, I’m working with ideas that arise from yoga. Though, I have always been curious about the Jungian concepts, I have no real experience with those ideas…Though the little I have gleaned from others does resonate, I think I’m a little frightened by it, too… (?) Maybe that should tell me it’s worth learning more about…
I have a feeling, even when I feel so dark and sad, that I will find my way out of this as a stronger individual, too. But I can’t see the forest through the trees, now, that’s for sure. And, at times, the idea that this is a neurological/biological thing, I will admit, makes me feel totally powerless and a bit doomed.
I have begun to work through some meditation / mindfulness exercises, and to consider the source of my repetitive actions (my demons?)… and I am coming to believe some of what I have discovered during my LE needs to be retained. There are parts of me that feel awakened that I don’t want to put back into a box, somewhere deep in storage within. We will see. Right now I feel too tender and worked up to make any major decisions…truly a lim-brain over here.
Yes, the coffee appointment happened. It was very, very intense for me. LO and I sat there for like 4 hours. I don’t understand what he wants, what he is doing. I left it on friendly terms. He offered to buy me dinner as a thank you for what I was helping him with…but I didn’t really bite. I don’t know what he actually feels for me, and I don’t know what he’s doing. But I will say, coffee was paradise, we get along so well, and make each other laugh like crazy. We share a lot of the same interests, and are very similar, as people. It’s all very weird. He’s so much younger…I cannot imagine what I am sensing from him is actually really there. Maybe he’s just a constant flirt. IDK.
But, I will say, I’m done trying to control the situation with LO. I can’t do it anymore. I’m going to stop trying to control everything, feel like crap if I have to, and get all this sorted.
Because of the intensity of the coffee “date” (it was not a date)— neurologically/biologically speaking, I am probably about to go into serious withdrawal/meltdown by Saturday.
I am not looking forward to it, but, with this community and some of the other information available to limerents now, I am expecting it. I know it will be awful. But, I will not be blindsided or unaware it’s withdrawal. Then…the grief will kick in, I imagine.
Unless my LO miraculously decides he is unable to live without me and must make some major move towards me (doubtful), I am done, and ready to go through what I need to go through. I can’t take another season of my life, besotted with someone who, even if he felt thing mutual, is not an option in any way, shape or form, given my own circumstances.
🙂 CSC
CSC,
“Evolution is a great word for what you are describing, to help me understand.”
“Evolution” in my posts just meant a big change or unexpected discovery in me, nothing biological.
“I’m working with ideas that arise from yoga.”
Yoga is one form of spiritual practice, like mindful meditations; what sorts of “ideas” that has arisen from your yoga practice?
“Though, I have always been curious about the Jungian concepts, I have no real experience with those ideas…”
Everyone has experienced Jungian’s concepts and ideas, but most is unaware or complete oblivious them. I’m attaching a couple video clips here if you’re interested —
1. https://youtu.be/9Y06Nf3l974?si=SfoDQyEYRlXXAvTK — How Carl Jung achieved individuation through discovering his personal myth.
2. https://youtu.be/Yrc2wC01HjI?si=5FZG0eOVmhD4O2IQ — How to uncover your true identity through fixing your Ego Boundaries
3. https://youtu.be/TS6dyRekTUY?si=RWoRisFpNt9gos0w —the Self vs No-Self; Jung & Buddha’s Greatest debate.
“Though the little I have gleaned from others does resonate, I think I’m a little frightened by it, too… (?) Maybe that should tell me it’s worth learning more about…”
Frightened about what? Our own repressed shadows? If we cannot bravely face it, it will always subconsciously chases/haunts us, consciously or unconsciously, or project them unto others, blaming they’re their problems.
“I have a feeling, even when I feel so dark and sad, that I will find my way out of this as a stronger individual, too. But I can’t see the forest through the trees, now, that’s for sure. “
Without sufficient knowledge/light, none of us, with strength or not, can’t walk through through the thick LE forest.
“the idea that this is a neurological/biological thing, I will admit, makes me feel totally powerless and a bit doomed.”
Disagree! Because neurology can’t be affected by our behaviors, we have a hope to control it. We can’t change our DNA, but our (in)actions and behaviors have power affect neurological activities — Cutting cocaine supplies, NC with LOs, and rational meditation will starve substance and person addiction.
“I have begun to work through some meditation / mindfulness exercises, and to consider the source of my repetitive actions (my demons?)… “
It’s the beginning to “know thy self”, worth of our living on this earth.
“and I am coming to believe some of what I have discovered during my LE needs to be retained.”
Ask yourself why they are need to be “retained”? For what profound purposes? Your own or someone else (LO, or SO)?
“There are parts of me that feel awakened that I don’t want to put back into a box, somewhere deep in storage within. We will see.
Dig deeper what has been awakened, and how it is manifesting in your life and your growth? Why does it need to be back into this “box/storage” — wha is it?? What is its function in your past and current life and its connection with others and life at large?
“Right now I feel too tender and worked up to make any major decisions…truly a lim-brain over here.”
Yeah, you sound quite being stuck in your lim-brain….
“Yes, the coffee appointment happened. It was very, very
intense for me. LO and I sat there for like 4 hours“
Not as sweet or relaxed as what MJ predicted? A cup of coffee with LO is never just a simple coffee like with a good friend or colleague. That coffee contains a whole range of LE neurological stimulant just like cocaine to any limerent.
“I don’t understand what he wants, what he is doing.
Why do you need or want to understand what he wanted or was doing? Isn’t it that he wanted to get some advice for his art projects and that you sincerely wanted to help— your sounding reason to see him?
“I left it on friendly terms. He offered to buy me dinner as a thank you for what I was helping him with…but I didn’t really bite. “
He behaved properly.
“I don’t know what he actually feels for me, and I don’t know what he’s doing.
So you’re still pondering over and want him to feel some affection for you and attraction by you? Whatever he’s doing is really important to you, ins’t?
“But I will say, coffee was paradise”
Of course, this coffee is astronomical dose of dopamine, no less than a paradise!
“we get along so well, and make each other laugh like crazy. We share a lot of the same interests, and are very similar, as people.”
By sheer words or shared realistic activities through a period of time?
“It’s all very weird. He’s so much younger…I cannot imagine what I am sensing from him is actually really there. Maybe he’s just a constant flirt. IDK.”
Age is just a number; he could be more mature than his age, and you much younger than yours. But what has made you doubt your imagination or intuition here? Why don’t trust your gut feelings? It’s possible that he’s a flirt,, but none of us here could sense or tell. My personal intuition, based on what you’ve told here: NOT trust him one bit— Not even Dr L would change my invitation.
“But, I will say, I’m done trying to control the situation with LO. I can’t do it anymore. I’m going to stop trying to control everything, feel like crap if I have to, and get all this sorted.”
We can’t control the other side of the LE equation, but we can manage our own limerencing behaviors. Otherwise, LE could take over our mind and actions. Is that what you want?
“Because of the intensity of the coffee “date” (it was not a date)— neurologically/biologically speaking, I am probably about to go into serious withdrawal/meltdown by Saturday.”
Be prepared that might happen indeed, as you intuitively sensed.
“I am not looking forward to it, but, with this community and some of the other information available to limerents now, I am expecting it. I know it will be awful. But, I will not be blindsided or unaware it’s withdrawal. Then…the grief will kick in, I imagine.”
Every action brings some consequences; be prepared for all expected and unexpected, as a Stoic.
“Unless my LO miraculously decides he is unable to live without me and must make some major move towards me (doubtful),”
What makes you think such a miracle could and would happen?
“I am done, and ready to go through what I need to go through. I can’t take another season of my life, besotted with someone who, even if he felt thing mutual, is not an option in any way, shape or form, given my own circumstances”
You sound very clear where your path lies on now, so why not move forward to more self-discovery, so as to avoid “another season” like this?
Be peace with you!
“But I will say, coffee was paradise, we get along so well, and make each other laugh like crazy. We share a lot of the same interests, and are very similar, as people. It’s all very weird.”
@CSC
I am glad coffee went well for you and LO. Coffee can have that effect sometimes. However I am sorry you are probably going to bottom out now as a result. Snow outlined a lot for you so I won’t add much.
Probably good you didn’t commit to dinner given the emotions you see coming on the horizon. You are overthinking everything now and most of it probably isn’t worth getting worked up over. I feel like you might even be seeing things that aren’t there. I was definitely overthinking everything at the height of my LE too, but none of it mattered in my situation.
At least you have some tools in place it seems, so that you are prepared for what’s next. Definitely do stop trying to take control of things.
I wish you luck as you move forward and will be thinking of you, upon my next cup of coffee.. ☕
Dear CSC,
I could have written what you wrote in this post. Unlike, you this took several years to kick-in for me. You seems to have reached this remarkably helpful conclusion within months.
Specifically this:
“But, I will say, I’m done trying to control the situation with LO. I can’t do it anymore. I’m going to stop trying to control everything, feel like crap if I have to, and get all this sorted.”
This was the very first step in changing my psychology for the better regarding LO. Practically, this meant that I stopped trying to present my best self to him as it led to far too much rumination and didn’t matter anyway because the entire thing was futile. I myself had known this from the beginning but it took a while to actually stick. nce I stopped trying to be perfect, I relaxed and slowly began to stop worrying so much about what he thought.
As for this:
“Because of the intensity of the coffee “date” (it was not a date)— neurologically/biologically speaking, I am probably about to go into serious withdrawal/meltdown by Saturday.”
I agree – you are probably headed for a bit of a come-down. Even though you’ve predicted it and have been through it before, it may surprise you. I was constantly amazed by the twists and turns that a come-down took and how come-downs felt so different from each other that I sometimes didn’t even recognise what was happening straight away.
As for this:
“Unless my LO miraculously decides he is unable to live without me and must make some major move towards me (doubtful), I am done, and ready to go through what I need to go through. I can’t take another season of my life, besotted with someone who, even if he felt thing mutual, is not an option in any way, shape or form, given my own circumstances.”
I think it would be really excellent if you could take control here and decide that YOU are done, irrespective of what LO decides. You know that if he decides to come for you, its not going to work out, right? I mean, you have kind of hinted this yourself in previous posts. I think it’s likely that any age gap romance is more challenging and riven with self doubt. A way to think about this is to anticipate that eventual breakdown of that putative romance with him – a shortlived ‘rush of blood to the head’, almost putting yourself there into the aftermath, psychologically. Maybe this approach is not for everyone but it certainly worked for me. I knew that LO and I could not be together even without barriers (which we both had as we are married and he had a young child at the beginning of it all). It was hard to accept that but what helped me was that I would have lost all respect for him if he had pursued me. So there was no way we would ever be an item. I decided that myself and it really, really helped me recover. By taking control over “the outcome”, you have an advantage in not needing to ruminate over whether ‘he’s just a flirt’ or whether its a deeper connection because, ether way, you’re done with it.
I get the sense from you that you are very composed outwardly and that its important for you to maintain your dignity through all of this (and isn’t that true for all of us!). You refused his dinner invitation, perhaps for that reason (I am only speculating)?
Another useful strategy is to continue to take the higher ground for those sorts of motivational reasons. Put it down to ‘older woman mysterious energy’, if that helps 🙂
Recovery looks different for everyone and different things click for different people. I just wanted to share these few thoughts in case they are helpful.
@Snowphoenix
Thank you so much for these resources, and for sharing your thoughts on my thoughts.
Yes, I definitely take evolution in a broad sense, not in the purely physical sense. I immediately understood it that way, thank you for confirming I had that correct. 🙂 I love it when someone finds a single word which illuminates a lot of things.
Your candor is met with gratitude. Your thoughts and responses to my message are incisive and targeted. They have helped anchor me this morning– a morning when I *could* have been “turning and turning in the widening gyre”…thanks to you and the other thoughtful, emotionally intelligent people here, I feel more tethered.
Regarding yoga, I practice various types of vinyasa yoga, and also yoga nidra…I do not adhere to a school, it is more of a personal realm for me. I don’t usually go to classes, it’s definitely more of a meditative/solitude practice for me, right now…
Ongoing, I read, meditate on, and otherwise attempt to stay mindful of the “limbs” of yoga. Currently, I am looking at an 8 limb tree.
Lately, I have begun exploring more deeply into who speaks and who listens, as I to through my life. My translating, solving mind, which speaks, chattering constantly, and beyond, it’s silent audience, for something in me hears the mind. Who is this, what, which never speaks, but hears. What is this witness, always here, silent, and unperturbed by the chattering, concerned, ever-solving mind.
I am exploring these aspects, limerences or not. And, as I become more comfortable with them, there is the aspect of letting go. To flow with life, and to allow life to happen.
These are abstract ideas, and difficult to put into words, but, I’ve tried. 🙂 sigh!
That being said, I also have a strong love of mythology and of our natural world. I learn a great deal from looking at both of these.
I suppose, the reason I’m a little “frightened” of the Jungian approach, as it were, because I know I would probably fall in love with it….limerent that I am. Your links are very intriguing though…so, you can be sure I will click on them, and add them to my simmering stew of learning. Thank you for curating those for me.
I hope you have a fulfilling day, Snowphoenix…your words and care have helped me more than you know.
In gratitude, CSC
@bewitched
Again, I am so sorry if I am not replying correctly in the thread here. If anyone has advice on how to reply better in a thread, I am all ears!
Thank you for your sympathies and understanding. I am in awe of how individuals here feel similar compelling forces in their LE’s…only to find dramatically different personal roads out of them. I am grateful to you for sharing your experience and wisdom with me.
Yes, I think “mysterious older woman energy” has to be something I come to embrace. I have felt, much of the time here, that I’ve been trying to make myself feel and be younger — and that has bothered me. It is a fool’s errand. Plus, it’s doing a disservice…I should try to enjoy the aspects of myself that are present now, and were not when I was younger. They are substantial. But, I will say, I am really straddling my youth and my older age. I am 49 and look about 44. I am scared to become 50. I will admit it feels like crossing the Rubicon. Like an axe that is about to divide my existence. (Oscar for most ridiculously overdramatic performance in a biopic…goes to me 🙂
Your own moment of psychological release – relinquishing control, or the illusion control was possible – sounds very much like my time, now. I wonder if it simply dawned on you, all at once, to let go, or, whether you had to work to pry yourself away from gripping? Did you just find yourself too tired to hold on? Or…something else?
I do love thinking I might just “give up”. I will still be around him, maybe. It would be a relief to just “be me”. To your point about whether any longer term relationship would ever work out with him, I doubt it. That doesn’t seem to be stopping me from what I’m doing, being in an LE, though.
You are right, I am someone who is very tightly laced. I share a lot with my posts here, but in real life, nobody has a clue I am losing myself, they have no clue the extent. Looking desperate, even a whif of it, is a place I will not go. Looking vulnerable in matters of the heart…feels like it might kill me. Though I know it would not…I think…I think that may be why I said no to dinner. I felt like I would be desperately jumping up to some confusing treat he held above my head.
I believe if he had said, clearly “This was fun, can I take you out to dinner?” I would have said “Yes.” But he didn’t. He said “Thank you for sharing all this with me it was so kind of you to do this, can I take you out to dinner as a thank you?” …and….I said no. There was not a pause. I just heard “no” come out of my mouth. He asked over and over, can’t I thank you, and “no.”
In matters involving my heart, I prefer people to be very, very clear with me. I guess, if I think about it, it was that instinct that told me not to reach for it. I like clarity, and it was unclear – or, what was clear, was that it was “a thank you” and not…something else.
So, I guess, to your point, I would say Mysterious Older Woman is indeed how I need to see myself, instead of “Confused Nervous Wreck”.
Your help means a great deal to me. Thank you for being understanding, non-judgemental, and illuminating. At least, maybe, I have some clarity on why I said “no” to the offer of more time with him. Maybe that is some progress?
With kindness, CSC
Hi @IMHO
Thank you for commenting and for sympathizing on how intense this has all been for me. I am hoping that your event, recently, was not as difficult – it sounds like you were able to handle it, even if it was. What amazing progress 🙂 Sometimes, on here, it’s hard to go back and figure out who is going through what, the way the threads get so long.
Yes, I will admit, my physical attraction to LO is honestly so intense, it’s primal. It scares me a bit. It is horrible to feel such desire.
My LO is 30, takes good care of himself and is confident in an attractive, approachable way. I doubt I am the only woman who sees it. Til now, he’s existed in gym clothes, for me. But yesterday, there was a closely fitting black t-shirt involved. Can confim, he’s hands-down gorgeous. Normally, my LO’s are not so hot. They’re just people…but this is beyond. I am delusional, have been delusional that someone like him would be lusting after me. I’m sure he has his pick of much younger women, and I am not the only woman in his world. My other LO’s…I think it was more a case where they were not so attractive – so, I was the only person who was on their radar at the time. This time, no. I am sure this guy is playing the field. If he’s not, he sure should be.
As far as menopause, I am actually a breast cancer survivor. So, I am in medically induced meno and have been for several years. One day they called and said, basically, “no more period, we’re shutting you down tomorrow.” And that happened. So, I am not sure if I am actually nearing real meno (probably!), or what is happening within. What you are saying about 49 year olds, is likely very much a factor.
Between the pandemic (when I was 45), the cancer (46), my induced early menopause (46 til now)…these years have been disorienting.
I am desperate to get out of this, but also desperate to try for him. I know I can’t do both. It’s hard. I wish this had never happened. I wish I was normal. I am sad.
Today is hard. It feels like it will never be not hard. TBH, reading this over, I can see my withdrawal / nervous system is starting to absolutely freak. These next few weeks are likely going to be a sh*tshow for me, emotionally.
I’m going to have to just cry it out and watch the minutes tick by. That’s the only way I’ve ever found to make it. I’m a veteran of these LE’s and I know if I ride it out, I’ll be ok, again, at some point. But after that, I need to remember where I was, and I need to try to make it so I do not keep in this pattern. This is really a problem for me. Every year, since 45, I have had a limerence. I have thrown these years away, suffering, for at least much of the year, then coming to the surface again….only to find another LO and end up drowning, anew.
I won’t be 40 again, or even 45. But, I just hope I can be ok one day, that I can find a way not to relapse into this behavior, to rise beyond.
As for this instance, I am honestly considering just telling him, “I am attracted to you, and you are someone I really enjoy, you are a cool person! I hope you will accept this compliment, and might understand it’s difficult for me to be so exposed. And now, I will be going away.” And then, I’ll go NC because…there is not another option (other than a miracle.) I have never tried pure honesty before.
But, like you mentioned earlier — to someone else — even certain steps to “help” oneself, can sometimes feel, inside, like you know they are actually oriented towards drawing LO nearer…for instance doing new things– great– but one is still collecting stories you can tell LO…it’s still oriented to them….but hoping that, at some point, it is no longer about them…they are no longer a motivator. IDK.
Thank you for caring and reading my story, and for sharing your experience with me. I am sorry I’m not at my best.
With Gratitude, CSC
Dear CSC,
How are you doing today? I hope the “coffee date come down” is not too rough.
I wanted to respond to your comment to me. You mentioned that:
“I am scared to become 50. I will admit it feels like crossing the Rubicon. Like an axe that is about to divide my existence.”
This has already happened to me and my one and only limerent episode ever straddled that ‘rubicon’. As well as age milestone, there was traumatic health issues in my family and I was super-stressed. LO provided the most delicious escape. It took me a long time to recover because I really didn’t want to recover. I was afraid to stop self-medicating with the blessed relief of LO reverie and rumination. Of course, the family health issues eventually resolved themselves (traumatically, as it happened). I reached 50 and survived it very well by setting some personal goals (and reaching some of them). Eventually, the down-sides of limerence outweighed the up-sides and I realised that I needed to escape the gilded cage that I had built for myself.
You asked:
“Your own moment of psychological release – relinquishing control, or the illusion control was possible – sounds very much like my time, now. I wonder if it simply dawned on you, all at once, to let go, or, whether you had to work to pry yourself away from gripping? Did you just find yourself too tired to hold on? Or…something else?”
The answer dawned slowly, in my case, but even after I *fully* realised that what I was seeking was an illusion, it still took time for my emotions and feelings to catch up with my mind. In fact, the mind had been clear all along, just clouded by feelings (and desire). So I did have to pry myself away from gripping, as you so eloquently put it. It was really tough, like mental training. Repeating to self the several mantras such as ‘it’s futile’, ‘I don’t want him, not really’, ‘we would never work’, ‘if he left his wife, I’d be disappointed in him’, ‘he may show that he wants me, but its probably just a fleeting thing’, ‘even if he wants me as bad as I want him, its not happening….so forget about it’, ‘he has no interest in me’. I rinsed and repeated these thoughts, deploying whichever one helped in whatever circumstances. For example, acknowledging sometimes that he probably felt something too but that it was irrelevant; at other times it was more helpful to me to acknowledge that he didn’t care for that much at all. Underlying all of this was the sure knowledge that I didn’t really want him either. Or maybe what I really wanted was a fling, to see what it would be like, but no more than that? How selfish would that have been? Its nuts to let something so ‘minor’ take up such importance in our minds for so long really when you think about it. LO was and is ‘special’ to me but he’s pretty unremarkable to anybody else. I still like him a lot and have contact with him but I have really put him in perspective now (this did take me years, though).
I found limerence to be so delusional – even to the point of figuring out my own motives. You have made an important realisation too, about motives, I think:
“I believe if he had said, clearly “This was fun, can I take you out to dinner?” I would have said “Yes.” But he didn’t. He said “Thank you for sharing all this with me it was so kind of you to do this, can I take you out to dinner as a thank you?” …and….I said no. There was not a pause. I just heard “no” come out of my mouth. He asked over and over, can’t I thank you, and “no.”
In matters involving my heart, I prefer people to be very, very clear with me. I guess, if I think about it, it was that instinct that told me not to reach for it. I like clarity, and it was unclear – or, what was clear, was that it was “a thank you” and not…something else”
It seems that you understand now what your motive was for saying ‘No’ and that this was because you simply doubted that his motives were romantic. If they had clearly been stated as such, you would perhaps have gone for it. Although you might have found out over dinner whether this liaison with your LO was really one with promise, you would have had massive guilt about your SO. You might have looked back in the future and lamented your hastiness? Can you reframe this as taking the “long view” instead of the “quick hit”? Mysterious Older Woman Energy is all the LO needs to know about this. Personally, I wouldn’t disclose because you have an SO and I think his feelings might be hurt if he ever found out.
With many best wishes,
I hope you are coping okay,
Bewitched.
@bewitched
Thank you for checking on me. I am doing better than I thought I would be doing, though I am treating myself with great care, because I am about as fragile as it gets. (But, I think, unbroken!)
Wow, I am very, very sorry to hear about that stressful part of your life, dealing with illness, and then having an LE materialize from that, I can imagine it was overwhelming, draining, and a time of great self-doubt or self-questioning…I would imagine it was exhausting…especially being near-50 as you were, and of course, being female. I believe I understand, from my own perspective, some of the things you were facing, and feeling.
That is so interesting about your mantra tactics. I am, I think, starting to have some of my own bubble to the surface. One of my most potent ones is “He pities you.” and “He thinks you are desperate.” And “He is just being nice because he thinks you are kind of pathetic.”
This potent trio is enough to make me feel actual anger and total indignation, which are galvanizing.
Today he seemed almost apologetic that he couldn’t talk to me. I had just walked up smiling to say hello. There was no indication I planned to stay! (I actually did not plan to stay.) He made some explanation to shoo me away (my interpretation), and said “Tomorrow, though.”
Maybe I am oversensitive– it doesn’t matter. But that I even sense a whiff of pity coming from him….Literally, it’s like a repelling force to me. As a child, teen, and as a young woman, I often felt ostracized and was made aware of my difference…my appearance, my features, my ways– by my peers. It hurt a great deal. It was more the rule than the exception that this was how people dealt with me.
But my reaction, after (naturally, initially) feeling sad in my desperation for acceptance, was then, reliably: “You know what? Go eff yourselves.”
I don’t think he wants to be with me in that sense…not enough. Like you, I believe it may occur to him, sometimes, but, not enough. If he has confusion about me…he will work it out on his own. I cannot lose more time to this, as I have some other very gnarly things to sort out in my life…and they will take all my strength. From what you say, this is similar to your own path.
I sensed pity. I may be imagining it but I will put it to use. Your technique is timely! 🙂
I’ll do my thing. I may even get more texts from him, and maybe see him socially. But, now that I have sensed pity…something has changed… we shall see…
Your help is invaluable. I feel understood. I feel less alone. Thank you @bewitched I am truly grateful and hope you are out there, feeling content, today.
CSC
@MJ
Gosh I can’t figure out how replies work on this thing…will you see this? IDK.
“You are overthinking everything now and most of it probably isn’t worth getting worked up over. I feel like you might even be seeing things that aren’t there.”
You are correct. This is so well-said (and received loud and clear.)
Thankfully, I’m past the LE stage where every little thing LO does seems to have some deep meaning. I won’t ruminate/fantasize over every aspect of the encounter. But I suppose I’ve moved on to fixating on one thing: the dinner question, probably will kick myself for several weeks. I will try to stop thinking about it, but not sure how much success I will have there. ugh. I turned it down so quickly I was not even conscious of doing it. He asked several times. And several times, a polite no came out of my mouth. Who was speaking no, I don’t know. Was it my fear? Or something else. It was me. My mouth. Oh well.
I feel grateful to be among others who understand the complexity of being this way, and instead of judging, extend a helping hand. I cried a little when I read your reply, and those from the others.
All I know is that if I could go back in time, I would, and I would say yes to dinner. I feel quite sad, regretful, confused. Whether it’s justified or not…i feel it.
So, amen:
“You are overthinking everything now and most of it probably isn’t worth getting worked up over. I feel like you might even be seeing things that aren’t there.”
Thank you again for helping me this morning. It’s a rough time, it’s my own doing, and I appreciate your kindness. I will continue to attempt to let go, and remember I have no control. What’s done is done and we move ahead.
CSC
You’re welcome @CSC.
Yes I did see your reply.
Glad to be of some help..
😄😄😄
CSC,
I am a bit late commenting on your dilemmas but I have been following. I had a fairly recent intense lead-up to an event with my LO, so I identify with all those feelings you describe so well.
Your lim brain and exec brain are both working very hard it seems.
The ‘no’ to dinner, maybe the right gut reaction you gave, in the moment your exec brain maybe kicked in.
Good for you ! A comedown is likely, but as you have had LEs before, I hope this maybe helps you deal with the feelings better if you can reflect on how you dealt with similar situations in the past and the outcomes. That the others dropped their LO status and this one will also play out the same way , just quicker as you know the drill ( or does it ? Maybe not, IDK as this is my first LE ).
Also I wanted to comment that I read an article that described a change in our hormones and how some younger mens pheromones trigger our biology shall we say and we often don’t realise it’s happening.
It’s something along the lines of ‘make babies while you can, and with a guy who is virile and whose DNA is compatible with your DNA’.
Men at the gym sweat so you are more likely to be subconsciously ‘hit’ from a compatible guy.
The author said it specifically happened to her female friends around the age of 49. So much, that they called it the 49er club.
This may not be the case for you, but if you have a strong sexual attraction to LO, biology may be at play too.
@snow
I have taken part of today to listen to some of these Jungian resources. I have to say thank you. This makes sense to me. And dovetails with what I am already doing, but in a way, it is the missing piece to what I am already thinking about. So much of what I hear has made me say yes. Yes. This is what has happened to me, and this is why I am serial.
I will continue to explore. I may need to seek more of the “layperson’s” version so I can wrap my mind around the basics, but…I will explore. Today, of all days, was a good day to receive this. Thank you.
CSC
The Visionary
Emily Brontë
1818 –1848
Silent is the house: all are laid asleep:
One alone looks out o’er the snow-wreaths deep,
Watching every cloud, dreading every breeze
That whirls the wildering drift, and bends the groaning trees.
Cheerful is the hearth, soft the matted floor;
Not one shivering gust creeps through pane or door;
The little lamp burns straight, its rays shoot strong and far:
I trim it well, to be the wanderer’s guiding-star.
Frown, my haughty sire! chide, my angry dame!
Set your slaves to spy; threaten me with shame:
But neither sire nor dame nor prying serf shall know,
What angel nightly tracks that waste of frozen snow.
What I love shall come like visitant of air,
Safe in secret power from lurking human snare;
What loves me, no word of mine shall e’er betray,
Though for faith unstained my life must forfeit pay.
Burn, then, little lamp; glimmer straight and clear—
Hush! a rustling wing stirs, methinks, the air:
He for whom I wait, thus ever comes to me;
Strange Power! I trust thy might; trust thou my constancy.
********
Burn again then, the redden ashes, spotty flickering
Gaze! A budding wing flaps, stirring the snowy stillness:
He for whom I wait, thus ever tip-toes to me;
Strange Sensation! I trust thy might; trust thou my vital pulsation.
🐦🔥
MJ –
“If you are actively trying to eliminate the LE, (meaning LO) those walks are going to impede your progress.. I understand the pull and the attraction there is great but you’re having a breakthrough with SO now. Playing both sides of the fence will be difficult.. And you sound waaay too over-the-top for LO still.”
Yes, I am “over-the-top” for LO, and still unable to deny her simplest requests, thats true… but our walk conversation today was mostly me making sure that she knew 100% that I will NOT go near her desk / workspace, to the point that if I see her there as I walk by I will ignore her. AND that I would NOT be involved in any way with her social media presence, ( not that I have been at all! ) which is obviously her own personal non-work space.
Further, I told her that I will NOT touch her at all any more ( hugs, etc ) as I felt I was in her personal space, and cannot bear to think I have made her uncomfortable ( she says not, but I am not sure she would tell me if I did ). She tried to tell me that I was NOT intruding, but… I still feel bad if I might have. She knows she can still hug ME if she wants to, no question of that ( I dont see that occurring! )
Basically… we will just be coworkers who walk together… MUCH less “intimate” 🙁
This will have to be enough of a hit from LO for my poor dopamine addled brain, until she either leaves this job, or gets tired of walks with me! Otherwise, as I have said, there is almost no upper limit to how much I crave her company… at this time
Trifles –
“LO is your fantasy escape from your situation at home. You can’t be crawling for the escape hatch while at the same time tending to the situation inside.
I really dont think of her as a fantasy escape ( deluding myself? ). All I know at this point is that no LO = horrible pain 🙁
Otherwise I would say this is very promising news about your SO! Could you see LO (walks and talks, etc) as an impediment to fixing things with SO? I know that in the thick of limerence this is much easier said than done.”
No, I do not think LO is an impediment… this sounds awful ( because I am her friend, I really am… I dont think of her as just a dopamine hit factory ). Truly, we work same floor 50 feet apart… NC is not possible… this is my VERY painful existence ( my heart hurts ALL the time, except when with her ) but best I can come up with solution, until she leaves
IMHO –
“Maybe you can concentrate on a proper plan to get closer with your SO.
If you haven’t had intercourse for a long time I can imagine the thought of it would be extremely daunting for your SO and maybe physically painful too. Take it slow.
I found this article with step by step advice to get intimacy back, that you could suggest to your SO.
(I know you don’t want an affair with your LO so maybe don’t show the whole article to your SO !! It’s just the week by week advice I thought could be helpful)”
I appreciate your input, thanks! I will read the article
( even if I was so inclined, and thought of LO in a romantic way… which I dont… I just love her / crave her company, etc …its laughable… in every respect! Half my age, married, very attractive, etc etc… so far out of my league… I actually laugh out loud at the absurdity! ) Are the old men like me that actually really thing they can date women half their age?? Forget Limerence delusions, that truly crazy!
“Are the old men like me that actually really thing they can date women half their age?? Forget Limerence delusions, that truly crazy!”
There are and I’m one of them.. I’m 53, about to turn 54 and LO is 29, about to turn 30.. (We’re both Valentines Day babies) My other Lady Friend just turned 30 in December.
I’d date them both if I could, but it’s not that easy. Really never was. The difference between my situation and yours, is that neither of them are married and I’m divorced. So in my perfect world, I’d love for it to be possible.. I’m working on a update to post here soon.
As for your situation, I feel like you’re too deep in the weeds at the moment to actively figure out where your preferences are. Although the way you write of how LO makes you feel, I think makes it kinda obvious..
If you truly want out of the limerence, you must forget the walks, the pleasantries, the dopamine fix and go NC..
In time it fades. Trust me..
Tough words, but I don’t know how else to write it..
As for your situation, I feel like you’re too deep in the weeds at the moment to actively figure out where your preferences are. Although the way you write of how LO makes you feel, I think makes it kinda obvious..
not really a preferences thing for me
I could not see how NC would work for me… we work physically close at work, it would be HELL on earth not to at least be friends with her, the walks keep me sane and in less pain… I am so glad she got us started on walks 2 or 3 weeks ago… I do love spending time with her, I feel we are good friends. If I truly had to go NC, but see her daily…. NO NO NO NO NO… I would need some strong serious medication ( and no lie… I think the stress might kill me, not being with her is painful and makes me think I am about to have an actual heart attack
Seriously, I am waiting for her get another job and leave where we work… fully NC, which will f’ing HURT but I am hoping to recover from
Oh… and on the not fun news front… her husband has applied to work here…. that would be GREAT 🙁 🙁 🙁
Full on torture… no more walk alone together, hus here, full on torture well, not NC, but WORSE, seeing her with him every day, and we do not interact al ALL anymore
This gets better and better!
Seriously, I think I would have to quit
“I could not see how NC would work for me… We work physically close at work”
NC won’t work for you because you’re basically writing in the rest of your post that you don’t want it to work. Like you haven’t even considered going LC as a start.
Do you feel this same kind of attraction to your SO? Does your heart hurt when you are not with your SO? Is it HELL on earth when you are not with your SO? Do you need medication when you’re not with SO? Does the stress of being at work and away from your SO almost kill you?
You have a SO, and she appears to have tried to cut you some sort of breakthrough. If you care about her, can you not consider her in this situation? She means very little to you by the way you keep pedestaling this other Woman.
There’s nothing wrong with being this Womans friend, but your need to see her like you do, and how you feel when you’re not around her says a lot of where your main interest lies..
NTL,
You said something yesterday about trying to get just enough of a level of dopamine fix from the walks.
The problem is, neuroscience tells us that whatever level of the dopamine we get, we will *always* crave more. (See older blogs or DrL’s videos from lately). It is like any other addiction in this way – ‘never quite enough’.
I have (minus the age gap and minus the physical boundaries being crossed element), similarities to you in my LE – LO is a long time friend and I can’t be anything close to NC because of work dynamics, despite knowing it would be the best way to end it. I am 18 months in. Managing it as a low level dopamine drip is necessary but it is *always* precarious – I can feel more on top of it for a while and then slip.
With time you have to try and regard her presence as less like dopamine. I am working on that and it is helping – my highs, lows and expectations are reduced a lot now. But it is hard if not impossible to force the pace of that. Her husband being there might accelerate it for you.
It is not an easy situation for you, but like MJ says, you could do with working out what you *really* want as an outcome here.
I have succeeded a bit recently in redirecting efforts into both self care actions (exercise, other distractions etc) and things with my SO. It is difficult and takes constant regrouping and pushing past the default “seek LO” setting. You also need the LO to stay ‘on script’ for this to sort of work.
I hope you find more peace soon.
Question – did she explain why when she asked you not to go to her desk anymore?
NtL, I have to challenge you a bit here… Hope you don’t mind.
I didn’t say that I thought your LE is romantic in nature. For most of us, an LE is an escape from our reality, no matter if the feelings are romantic or not (though they usually are). We escape into our reverie of wonderful, intrusive thoughts! Usually the LE lets us know that there is something wrong or missing in our lives.
Btw, if your LE is not romantic, and LO’s SO knows about you, why would his presence affect your friendship with LO?
If, however, your feelings are subconsciously romantic, the SO’s presence will likely awaken you to that fact. And it could be the best thing to happen to your LE!
Hi new to limerence,
I haven’t read all, but I‘m a bit concerned. It doesn’t sound that you are interested in solving the situation at all, I think you just want it to go on forever. Is that healthy for you, to rely on this one person so much and let her occupy so much of your headspace?
Also, with apologies, but I think you are deluded to think that you are just a good friend and it’s nothing romantic.
I think if it would be socially accepted and she would play along, you would certainly be romantically interested, no?
Otherwise, if you just want her best and be a good friend, you wouldn’t react so strongly on her SO planning to work at your place. If you were a true friend and nothing more, you would even welcome the chance to get to know her SO.
I don’t want to induce guilt, I just think it’s necessary to see oneself and the situation clearly and with honesty , otherwise nothing can be solved.
Risk = Threat [LO] x Vulnerability [limerent] x Consequence [e.g., divorce, getting fired, getting a restraining order slapped on you, etc.]
If any of these are zero, there is no risk.
“Threat x Vulnerability” is called “Likelihood of Exploitation.” If you want to reduce overall risk, you separate the Threat from the Vulnerability. On a practical level, this forms the basis for No Contact.
Using another analogy, as related to limerence, exposure to an LO is a stochastic event. Just like there’s no set dose of radiation that will definitely cause cancer, exposure to any radiation may cause cancer. Exposure to one’s LO has different effects on different limerents.
Hence, the less one is exposed to their LO, they better off they are.
LE –
Thanks for the clear and “cold” thoughts!
Radiation exposure… sounds about right!
And I agree fully… less = better
my new coping mechanism is Jimmy Buffet songs ( listening, and since I play guitar, learning to play some of them )
Very mind clearing and makes me feel good! Dopamine from a better source!!!
To reinforce L.E’s post; I got to talk to LO one time about 2 months after she left. I didn’t initiate the contact, she did. One five minute phone conversation and I was on cloud nine for weeks. (And 3 years later I can still recall 90% of it too.) But it brought me back to square one with my wife who already had suspicions about the two of us having an affair. Low risks can many time have high costs.
NTL,
During my last LE, I did a risk assessment.
Because of our logistics, I considered LO #4 as a non- threat. I was also unaware of a long-held but dormant vulnerability.
Even from 2500 miles away, LO #4 unwittingly hit me square in that vulnerability. Luckily, I got the Consequences factor right.
Adam-
“To reinforce L.E’s post; I got to talk to LO one time about 2 months after she left. I didn’t initiate the contact, she did. One five minute phone conversation and I was on cloud nine for weeks. (And 3 years later I can still recall 90% of it too.) But it brought me back to square one with my wife who already had suspicions about the two of us having an affair. Low risks can many time have high costs.”
Yes… I could see this happening to me… esp the Cloud 9 part
——————————————-
LE –
“NTL,
During my last LE, I did a risk assessment.
Because of our logistics, I considered LO #4 as a non- threat. I was also unaware of a long-held but dormant vulnerability.
Even from 2500 miles away, LO #4 unwittingly hit me square in that vulnerability. Luckily, I got the Consequences factor right.”
I really appreciate your approach to all this
MJ –
NC won’t work for you because you’re basically writing in the rest of your post that you don’t want it to work. Like you haven’t even considered going LC as a start.
I have cut down ( some at her request, some at mine ) to LC… Desk visits, touching, and texting… only the walks left
You have a SO, and she appears to have tried to cut you some sort of breakthrough. If you care about her, can you not consider her in this situation? She means very little to you by the way you keep pedestaling this other Woman.
No pedestal at all… I see many of her flaws, and am a little annoyed at her as I write this
There’s nothing wrong with being this Womans friend, but your need to see her like you do, and how you feel when you’re not around her says a lot of where your main interest lies..
I am her friend, started that way months ago, and she still enjoys the walks, so we continue them ( for now ).
————————————-
LaR –
” I hope you find more peace soon.” thanks, I think I shall… but I had a crying meltdown yesterday afternoon, I think trigger by LO and I going into LC )
Question – did she explain why when she asked you not to go to her desk anymore?
She said it was work optics, in the sense that I was taking time from her work day… and also that she felt the others near where she sits could see that I was ONLY there to see her, and that she felt they could ‘sense” something ( it was REALLY obvious, I admit )… I also partly think she is trying to…. create a distance between us a bit
As to why still walks… my gut tells me that I am ” not too objectionable” a walk partner, and that since the walking is the main feature, she puts up with me in order to have a walking buddy
As to what I really want as an outcome… she wants a better job…. I want her to get a better job ( elsewhere ) … she would likely say ” we will keep in touch” I dont believe that , NOR do I want that
—————————————–
Trifles –
Btw, if your LE is not romantic, and LO’s SO knows about you, why would his presence affect your friendship with LO?
If, however, your feelings are subconsciously romantic, the SO’s presence will likely awaken you to that fact. And it could be the best thing to happen to your LE!
His presence ( and I have been thinking about this overnight ) will pretty much take away the last bits of our interactions at work… and I think he would become her walk buddy … all in all, making us pretty NC… not a bad thing ( as long as she is happy… I still really care about her happiness )
————————————–
Mila –
I haven’t read all, but I‘m a bit concerned. It doesn’t sound that you are interested in solving the situation at all, I think you just want it to go on forever. Is that healthy for you, to rely on this one person so much and let her occupy so much of your headspace?
I want this to end… I want ideally ( and not just for NC, but because she wants a better job… she is career driven ) for her to leave
“Also, with apologies, but I think you are deluded to think that you are just a good friend and it’s nothing romantic.
I think if it would be socially accepted and she would play along, you would certainly be romantically interested, no?”
No, I have pretty much no game / self confidence / ability to relate to a woman that way anymore… I really dont think that way ( except I did have a sex dream about my SO last night ! )… and LO would NEVER approach me that way
“Otherwise, if you just want her best and be a good friend, you wouldn’t react so strongly on her SO planning to work at your place. If you were a true friend and nothing more, you would even welcome the chance to get to know her SO.”
My gut tells me that my reaction would be to LO and I going full NC with her SO here, to which I would fear the pain ( but… rip the bandaid off, right? 🙂 )
The “jealousy” involved would be regarding him taking her time away from me. I think I should just, if you will all excuse the old expression… Man-Up! NC!! I am told that the pain will go away
” I don’t want to induce guilt, I just think it’s necessary to see oneself and the situation clearly and with honesty , otherwise nothing can be solved. ” I completely agree
sorry, slight showing off of some happiness… we had LOVELY walk!! She got some treats for herself and her husband, and shared some of her treats with me ( I of course carrying the shopping bag )
I really like that she lets me be protective of her on the walks, like crossing roads and such
Feeling much better than I was this morning
Mila –
“Also, with apologies, but I think you are deluded to think that you are just a good friend and it’s nothing romantic.
I think if it would be socially accepted and she would play along, you would certainly be romantically interested, no?”
I have given this a lot of thought… I do admit that LO and I, our relationship seems to have at times EA characteristics… close messaging, chatty long walks, sharing food, etc… but some of that runs hot and cold too
We had some kinda tough talks last few walks… but it was always with humour and understanding and listening to each other… I feel we are closer and understand each other pretty well now.
Maybe I am too involved in the LE… do some of you feel we are into a bit of an EA??
As an example… she said she prefers ME to buy her a certain treat I found she loves, as a random special thing ( she says it makes all her “cells” happy when she eats it ) rather than get it for herself
And in a chat message we both misspelled the same word, in different ways… she said she did hers that way to make it more “attractive”
And she showed me a scar on her lower back, from an old surgery, that she wants to cover with a tattoo… she didnt seem to mind me touching the scar tissue a couple of times, to compare it to what she called, on her hips, “stretch marks”, I just called them life marks
Even I think this sounds a bit EA, maybe, to someone on the outside… I just think of it as us being close friends
Given the age difference, it’s quite possible she sees you as a father figure—not an EA, but a special relationship of another kind. Especially if she lives in a different city than her parents. I remember when I was young and out on my own, looking for mother and father figures, somebody to talk to when my parents were so far away.
SL –
I would love it if she saw me as a father figure. Maybe we are moving towards that?
Her parents live in another country and she has not seen them for at least 3 yrs
I was reading an online article about 15 men who anonymously shared their thoughts on crushes/infatuation. And I think this one guy really nailed it for me. What he describes (as oppose to the other 14 men’s accounts) sound like he experienced limerence. And put to words what she did to me. There is something about that feeling of vulnerability that only one person has made me feel. Or ever will.
“It’s an intoxicating feeling when someone’s charm starts to take a hold of you. It very much feels like being under the influence of… something. Your thoughts change and there’s a rush of emotions swirling through you and it’s hard not to think of anything but the person that’s charming you. It’s an incredibly powerful feeling, and a bit terrifying how vulnerable it renders you for someone to take advantage of you.”
https://www.yourtango.com/2018314330/15-men-reveal-what-its-having-crush-when-theyre-already-relationship
Adam –
“It’s an incredibly powerful feeling, and a bit terrifying how vulnerable it renders you for someone to take advantage of you.”
This resonates with me… it is more than a bit terrifying how vulnerable I am to my LO ( I never thought of it like that before )… I really am usually very rational, but not with this altered state. I dont really enjoy this exposure at all
And, I just now connected a line from the movie Lolita… ” my LO…” as he calls her… I think it is a kinda dark but good movie… but now I see that he was in an LE ( albeit for an underage girl )
If you saw the movie, with James Mason… his reaction to first seeing her.
I have been seeing Limerence everywhere now, esp in songs! a LOT of ‘love’ songs now sound that way to me
Right off I have never seen Lolita, only know the basics of the story. But now that I know James Mason is in it, I will make the time to seek it out and watch it. He’s a great actor. He is in one of my favorite childhood movies 20, 000 Leagues Under the Sea.
I can somewhat understand your comment here and another one about being a father figure to your LO. Because for me I tried to be that to LO’s daughter, who when I met her was 15. She chose to live with her mother and her sister stayed with her father when LO got divorced because he cheated on her.
LO made a comment about her daughter’s boyfriend and I guess my face made a look of mistrust or anger. Upset by her statement? To which LO said “Adam it’s not uncommon for 15 year old girls to have boyfriends.” To which I replied “That maybe so. And no offense to your great parenting, but I don’t like it.” She says “Why?” “Because I don’t trust 15 year old boys further than I can throw them.” She looked at me and said “I wish her father cared as much about what goes on in her life as you do.” Ole poppa bear did not like one of the closest things he’ll ever have to a daughter near any boy.
So I do get the father figure aspect. I wanted to protect them both from the ugliness of the world. Shield them from all the awful members of my gender. Her husband and her father destroyed a family for some trailer trash hussy.
Miss Lovisa (if you haven’t talked to her is the angel of LwL) told me when I first started posting here over a year ago that God (or evolution) instilled in every man the desire to provide, protect and preside over the women that become important in their lives. And because of LO and her daughter’s situation those feelings were strong. Both of our boys are grown and self sufficient. LO and her daughter were alone with no one to look out for them other than each other. As LO didn’t have a very supportive family for the situation she was in. So I tried to be that man. To my detriment. Be careful with how your proceed my fellow “savior”. 😉
https://livingwithlimerence.com/new-year-purpose/#comment-38133
CSC,
If there is a magic silver bullet to getting replies to appear in the right place, I have never found it. The best logic is “reply to the last one in the thread that has the reply option, unless wanting to reply to a specific post at the level above that (which has reply option).”
Or – give up and start anew at the bottom, as I have here. I hope you see this.
I’ve read all the bits you’ve written over the last couple of days and the replies to them. You have had wise counsel so I will just add a few points.
Your honesty, candour and self awareness radiates out of your posts, even though I know you’re on a massive self discovery path and feel unsure of your ‘self’. You *will* beat this LE and beat it with the beneficial-to-self bits intact, however hard it is to see the path.
I can relate so much to how your lim-brain and exec-brain are battling it out. The different emotions – how you felt the massive high from the coffee, how you are conflicted (want him but don’t want him), how you knew the crashing low would follow the high as predictably as winter follows summer, how you now have to “live out” the crash – I have felt them all. This is limerence, and all of that is almost the common language to every one of us here, at some point.
To your thoughts about admitting your feelings to him, then cutting and running – I am in favour of your suggestion if it feels right to you. I blew up my previous LE with that strategy. I told her how I felt and that I thought we should be LC/NC for the sake of both our relationships (I was lucky as she was moving away so it created a natural break point and not having to live out LC with her under my nose). She felt the same – both for me, and about NC. Total NC to this day apart from she did a Facebook drive by. I recovered pretty quickly. Could doing the same speed up your recovery? (I know you don’t want rid of all feelings linked to limerence – I mean recovery from the bad bits, which in the end often outweigh the good bits). The only danger is, can you cope if he says he reciprocates (would need some planning for)
I also see lim-brain and exec-brain scrapping it out in your “I should have said yes to dinner” musings. That’s definitely lim-brain. I reckon exec-brain knew what it was doing when it said ‘no’ and you can trust it and be thankful it was strong enough to kick in. This sentence is LwL cliche, but what would be a realistic good outcome or even ‘fairytale ending’ (I don’t just mean at the time) if you had said yes? Try to trust yourself here.
I speak from a place of understanding. My lim-brain would be fighting with every fibre of its strong being to say yes to such a dinner invite, then I would have the low which the lim-brain would relate to saying ‘no’. I know what all this is like.
Plough on through and keep working on self discovery. Celebrate all small wins. You will get there and the low will lessen a bit each day from now on.
As a p.s, @Bewitched, things you have said to me are proving invaluable in LE containment and reduction at the minute. I don’t have time to get into it yet, so for now just want to say thank you.
CSCm & LaR,
You’re in the similar boat: something for you both to broil —— LO on the other side SEEK YOU:
******
COMMUNISM.
Ella Wheeler Wilcox
When my blood flows calm as a purling river,
When my heart is asleep and my brain has sway,
It is then that I vow we must part forever,
That I will forget you, and put you away
Out of my life, as a dream is banished
Out of the mind when the dreamer awakes;
That I know it will be, when the spell has vanished,
Better for both of our sakes.
When the court of the mind is ruled by Reason,
I know it is wiser for us to part;
But Love is a spy who is plotting treason,
In league with that warm, red rebel, the Heart.
They whisper to me that the King is cruel,
That his reign is wicked, his law a sin;
And every word they utter is fuel
To the flame that smoulders within.
And on nights like this, when my blood runs riot
With the fever of youth and its mad desires,
When my brain in vain bids my heart be quiet,
When my breast seems the centre of lava-fires,
Oh, then is the time when most I miss you,
And I swear by the stars and my soul and say
That I will have you and hold you and kiss you,
Though the whole world stands in the way.
And like Communists, as mad, as disloyal,
My fierce emotions roam out of their lair;
They hate King Reason for being royal;
They would fire his castle, and burn him there.
Oh, Love! they would clasp you and crush you and kill you,
In the insurrection of uncontrol.
Across the miles, does this wild war thrill you
That is raging in my soul?
Well written LaR. I can fully identify with what you wrote there..
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
CSC,
I just wonder. I have the vaguest memory about you writing that your relationship to SO isn’t all that satisfying, or am I mistaken? Maybe here’s the crucial point- is that the relationship you want to keep for the next years, is it worth working on it? Then maybe focus on that, and if in doubt- what would you do, only hypothetically, if your LO would reciprocate? Like, really earnestly reciprocate? Can you imagine a relationship with him and ending that with SO?
Maybe you wrote that somewhere, I’m a bit out of it at the moment, in this case I apologize.
Hi @Mila
Thank you…yes, my SO is a lovely, caring person, a thoughtful person. But, he is also someone who can be quite rigid. He is not a “seeker” like me. He is introverted, quite. He is not demonstrative. As he gets older, he seems even less demonstrative than before. Outside of the doormen and people at the desk at his gym, I am the only one who actually knows him, his only close contact. I’ve tried getting him to extend himself a bit – volunteer, maybe? join a writer’s group? IDK. but…he seems unwilling. There is always an excuse why he can’t.
I will just pull off the band-aid here and say: He is a kind and well-meaning man, and it may be worth working on, I’m sure it is, but I don’t …I don’t WANT to. I feel, often, like I am warping and so contorted. Bent out of my original, natural shape…to transform again, to wrap around someone who does not change, himself, to accomodate…it’s all just too much. My SO is exhausting me. I feel drained, and weary, and like I am hiding this huge part of myself. He is caring, and he does so much for ME. But he does little for himself, so I must do all the rest. It’s complicated (maybe it’s codependency? IDK much about that.)
I have been thinking a lot about it. I, personally, would not want to be with another, if they were pretending, or anything like pitying me. I have had some conversations with my SO about this topic, a kind of proto-breakup, but, he is just not there. He has told me if we end it, he will not be with anyone else, I will be the last. He has told me also that he does not want it to end. I have told him, I will need him to allow me to get my things. He crumbles….It is heartbreaking, and when he does this, I immediately go to him…comfort him….melt back into him. He goes from stoic to totally vulnerable in seconds, …But then, I wake up the next morning with the same feeling…Get me out of here.
Often, time with LO reminds me that I am still me. Not contorted, still flowing with the energy I have always had! It is still there, and vital! It is right at my fingertips.
Still, to your point, no, I don’t think anything would ever work with LO. Even if it were possible, SO aside, my limerant tendencies would take me out of the fat and into the fryer, so to speak. I’d be a basketcase for LO’s attention….and even closer to losing my mind, in all probability. Ha.
So, what is needed for me is a serious combing through, and probably time completely alone…if I am ever to get to a healthy place in terms of relationships. And that is how you find me, here on the blog…trying to get to that place, to repair myself so I can move ahead in a better way. 🙂
I hope you are having a lovely afternoon, morning, evening, wherever you are, Mila….
I’m sorry to be talking so much about myself, Mila. I know your time is valuable and I feel extremely selfish. I am hopeful that maybe my own story will resonate with others, and even if I am being selfish here, they will feel less alone, if they recognize any of it in their own lives.
In gratitude,
CSC
Nooo CSC,
That’s exactly the place to talk about yourself!
You should have read my overlong detailed rants here in my time, all about me, me and XLO, me….
I was so glad to be able to let steam off here, and I’m glad others can, too!
You write here instead of just going overboard with your LO and hurting people, how is that selfish?
Interesting portrait of your relationship. I get the difficulty to decide on leaving or staying. I don’t dare give advice on that, I’m afraid you have to find out for yourself, as it seems complex. But this
„ But then, I wake up the next morning with the same feeling…Get me out of here.“ sounds actually quite desperate!
Would it help to speak to some therapist or counselor about your feelings on your relationship? Because there seem so many conflicting emotions involved, maybe it would help you to sort it out to speak to someone about it who asks the right questions.
@Mila
Thank you for the reassurance that I’m not being selfish by posting…I sincerely appreciate it, and I know you really mean it, and want me to absorb it, and feel at ease. Thank you for that.
Yes, I do feel like I wake up and my first thought is “Oh god. Get me out of here.” My last thought at night is “Give me what I need to be able to truly, truly do the right thing, whatever it may be. Keep me open to know what it is.” Yes, these are desperate times for me. I have no real answers, other than that I must work it all through until I feel reconciled.
As for therapy…I have tried it in the past, but am just not sure I would want to participate again. It left me with a feeling it’s hard to describe. Not a great feeling. Not a supported one. Maybe a feeling of “WTF”. ha
But, maybe I just had the wrong therapists. Or, the questions they were asking were ones I was not ready for…hm.
I still feel I need to go through this on my own, though. I do feel I am best when I am on my own, learning deep within. I feel I can do it. It’s just going to be so, so ugly before it gets beautiful. I feel…I have to do this work. I am going to have to accept it will be very painful. Slowly, I am working up the ability to withstand that, so I can go where I need to go, grow again.
Today I did not go to my gym, even though LO promised to talk to me today (since he couldn’t yesterday? Like I’m some pathetic clinger-on?)…just…no. I found a different location and went there instead. It was weird and cavelike. I did my yoga, enjoyed feeling hidden. I will do the same thing tomorrow. As many have expressed here, re: motives…I am not sure if I am doing this to try and help myself, to punish LO, to try to elicit some reaction…or all three. But I tell myself at this point, the motive doesn’t matter. What matters is that I stay far away from LO, because I cannot give any more time to this, and I cannot handle being seen as clingy or needy.
Here, though, it’s clear: I’m needy and desperate, and a freaking basketcase. I’ll just admit it, and try to own it, since I’m in a safe place 🙂
Hi CSC,
I’m writing my reply here so you see it and LaR’s input ( & others) also above from a couple of days ago.
Navigation on the comments is tricky. I use the Find function on names to find posts I may have missed.
I’m very sorry that you have had to go through treatment for cancer and all the elements to endure on that journey, with induced menopause, that isn’t easy.
It’s a difficult time for many women !(45 to 50) with hormonal changes without this significant life events that you have had to go through.
I hope you can celebrate that and have all the medication and supplements you need/want. On the positive, it seems your ‘desire’ generally is in very good health. That is really great, isn’t it ?! For many it completely disappears after menopause.
I identify with strong desire element to LE. I think there is that need to feel still attractive and desirable.
I hope you are ok and things are better since the coffee meet.
Hi Imho,
Thanks for the ‘bump’ on my post to CSC as I was hoping she’d see it. Getting the comments to go in the right place sometimes needs a degree in the theory!
Hope you’re doing OK in light of the news you’re digesting. Cautiously, I am at about the best point of the LE so far in terms of feeling progress and light at the end of the long tunnel.
Thanks LaR,
Yes I hope CSC sees it, as you /others make the efforts to help and enlighten with some very wise words.
I am very glad to read you are personally doing better in your LE and hope the end of tunnel light is slowly getting brighter for you.
I’ve been struggling today a lot, more than usual and realise I use LO ruminations as a distraction / comfort from difficult life and work things that I need to face but am not! May the rest of the week be better!
@Imho
Yes, I had some thread trouble – good to know that it’s not just me who gets flummoxed by what’s happening and who is mentioning what!
I am so grateful for you making sure I saw these comments, yours, @snow ‘s , @bewitched @mila and @L-I-R
Truly, I appreciate your “all hands on deck” approach, all of you! I feel profound gratitude for your presences, your honesty, and your understanding. Thank you for taking me seriously, not calling me “hormonal’ or a “drama queen”. Thank you. My mental state would be exponentially worse if you all were not here. Your understanding of how this feels — it is a huge gift.
@imho yes, thank you for your well-wishes re: cancer. I feel very grateful to have caught it and had the great care I did (and still have!) It was a very disorienting, frightening time. Then, the induced meno was nuts. I didn’t even get the chance to take my period out for a nice dinner to break up. Just…boom…done. But yes, desire has remained intact, very much. (Though, I will admit, certain days I wish I could just wither up and it could be gone…in truth, I don’t want that at all. I want to be able to express it, and to enjoy it, that feels natural and healthier than what I am currently doing.)
I celebrate my continued, healthy existence on the daily. 🙂 But, my survivorship also came with a sidekick…an inner voice that constantly asks “Is this thing you are doing, right now…CSC, is THIS how you are choosing to use your one, precious life?” This voice is overactive and aggressive. All it does is ask the same questions. It has no answers.
Despite this constant questioning, I am not doing much different than I ever did. I still have my work, my “life”. Outwardly, nothing has changed. But inside, it’s like my whole world has been massively upended, and this questioning thing is stomping around in all that chaos…oof.
All of my post-cancer LE’s have worked momentarily to quiet the voice. Now that I know it can be quiet, I have to find ways to ignore it that don’t involve an LO. (uhhh) I’d love to use this latest LE as the LAST LE. Yes, while I am suffering, I believe I am also growing, to wrap my spirit and mind around what is going on here…at the root. And maybe to integrate it into myself, so I can move ahead in a way I’ve never tried, before.
I hope wherever you are and whatever you are doing, you are having a beautiful day, and finding pockets of calm and contentment for yourself.
🙂 CSC
CSC,
Quick question: why do you want to quiet that voice?
You reminded me of the quote: “Most (wo)men lead lives of quiet desperation.”
I’m struggling with the same question… Aren’t we all? And yet, why don’t we try other ways of living? If even in tiny steps? If we don’t, does it mean we’re actually…satisfied?? I don’t know, I’m like that voice, I only ask the questions.
I’m past limerence but I’m at the questioning stage (in the void that limerence leaves behind) – and probably will be stuck there for some time…
CSC, Trifles,
I wonder if said internal ‘voice’ can become too obssesed with trying to tell us with need to find a big change or new purpose / way of living? When in fact we just need to take smaller steps and let the bigger ones (if applicable) happen more organically. Kind of “look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves”.
Social comparison (especially in the social media age) might encourage us to think everyone else is changing the world apart from us. Yet those people might also be sitting with the same doubting voices inside of them.
Due acknowledgement, CSC, that I have not lived through either cancer survival or the menopause (only the manopause maybe 😅). I can see how those things could change a perspective and increase the volume and urgency of the internal ‘voice’.
Most of us must keep some bad habits going despite knowing they’re bad, or not change things even though we think change would be good. The science of why is beyond me but very interesting!
Hi CSC, I’ve wanted to give a general response to your situation for a while as I see some paralells (and many differences), but have also been avoiding posting here too much recently due to general fade out of LE and not wanting to think out it.
I definitely see a history of LEs for me being tied to a period of transition or a desire to somehow change. The recent relapse on a very old LE that led to me ending up here is definitely a case in point, and in some ways a crutch i have used to manage a mid life crisis/transition.
To be somewhat blunt, you are clearly having a crisis/transition, lets call it midlife for want of a better word. Death came up and gave you a big slap around the face and said WAKE UP! I am sort of coming out of the other side of it, and that energy and inner voice is beginning to fade a little now, from volume setting 11 mid last year, and I have been reflecting a bit on what the hell happened….
Honestly, I almost miss it a bit. The limerence was horrible, but the drive to change, to be something different really led me to question a lot of stuff. I also had some mad moments – i was waking up at 4 or 5 every morning and going out running for hours, just randomly crying, where ive mabye cried 10 times in my entire adult life, and just massive surges and urges of all sorts of emotions and whatnot, and definitely yes, desire, I felt like I was 22 again at times…..
I find my relationship with SO complicated. In many ways it is an excellent relationship, we are complete opposites (me the introvert, she extrovert), so complement each other a lot, but often barely understand each other or simply cant behave how the other person wants in that moment. It is 100% not something I want to end, and I dont think my SO does either, but of course we get a little frustrated now and then. I am still quite outgoing though, or at least can be quite high energy, which I think keeps her happy, so maybe not quite your situation.
I think the trick is really how do you manage all the crazy emotions and the inner voice telling you to change things, but still make good decisions. You definitely cant keep it quiet, you’ll just lose the plot…. I wouldn’t say I have anything I mastered particularly well, apart from being able to know limerence is not real.
I did make quite a few changes or new few things – ended home office/remote working, changed up my hobbies quite heavily and started doing a lot of the things i have always wanted to do more often, more music and being outdoors, My SO isnt very interested in them, but has agreed to partake in bits, re-activated a lot of old friendships and planning wekeends away with friends, had a few ‘heavier’ conversations with SO about the things I was really missing in our relationship and not getting out of it, I also commited to giving her a few of the things she needs which feel a bit unnatural to me.
But honestly what has most been the focus in my head all the time, like maddeningly frequent ruminations and thoughts, but actually the most insignificant element of all of this has been my connection to LO. I tried to restore a friendship with her in the middle of limerence to cure it, but found distressing as she was hesitant about reconnecting (we live far apart now). I went for a reactive NC for a period, am hoping I can come down a little. It is definitely dissapointing and sad to sort of finally give up on any connection to her, as I liek her a s a person in a way i dindt like many exes, and had always sort of nurtured a hope of rekindling it one day.
But on reflection I am increasingly realizing not only the bad stuff but the good stuff is going on in my head, and has nothing to do with LO. She only plays a totemic role. It is also kind of unfair on her, she isnt egotistical so theres not much a quid pro quo to being put on a pedestal.
All that positive energy I have to put into improving my life (and that of SO and my family) is really quite separate from the LE, and going NC wont change anything there IMO.
It sounds like you have a very hard decision to make about your SO, I cant advize you on that, but dont let thoughts about LO determine that in a concrete way, he is a totem. Any thoughts or feelings the LE /crisis/transition awakens in you are your own.
@Trifles
Yes! That quote about quiet desperation is one I think of often, you are totally right…and possibly psychic. 🙂
I am not sure I should quiet the voice. I think it’s there for a reason, and a good reason. I don’t think I can make it just go away. What I think, maybe, I can do is calm it down, tell it I’ll listen to it, and slowly work towards integrating it.
At suggestion of @snow I have begun learning about The Shadow. I resisted for so long…afraid. But, I’ve got some books from the library, and have spent time with them. I feel this kind of work, integrating the hidden, repelling, parts of me I am ashamed of, may be the key to what I am…I guess…dreaming of: a life that isn’t perfect, but a life where I am truly alive. I want to be able to say I have used my life well, whatever that means. And I don’t think, yet, that I know what that means. I know other people’s versions…not my own….yet.
So, the voice…the tiny steps…the void you speak of…I understand and have thought about them. I’m not in your stage, yet. I am behind you in progress in this LE. But, from what you are saying, you are grappling with the same kinds of questions and issues.
I feel there is hope. I feel there is hope for all of us here! I feel we all have a lot to give, a lot to be. I feel you have a lot to do, and be, and I am certain of that. I have no answer, but I can offer encouragement, and empathy, and they are true.
CSC, Aw, thank you! That is so nicely said. And I agree – There is definitely hope for all of us, more so than for the average person, since we are here asking the big questions, trying to find purpose. I am sure you will also find ways to live life ‘alive’ and making a difference.
Just today I looked back at an instance where I’ve made one person’s life better, in my own little – or even not that little! – way. I realized that I don’t really celebrate these moments, when I really should! I will try to hold on to this memory for those times when I doubt that ‘I’ve used my life well.’ (That was well put!)
Maybe do the same – look back and recognize those times that you’ve helped other people, and file them away for times of doubt.
Because I think that’s the most important purpose we have here, to make just someone’s life slightly better. And you seem to have really committed to that! I admire (and envy!) that in you.
I think it’s well worth pointing out that even by coming on here and trying to help other people out, we often make those people’s days better in a small way.
I know that LwL is ‘ghost land’ and is not our real life, and that we know only fragments. But we bring some of the most gnarly issues of our real lives here. I have had literally no-one to talk about my LE to in real life – this massive thing that has taken so much of my thought, yet masked constantly (or tried to) with all my friends and family. Being able to write about it here and have helpful responses helps such a lot.
We see evidence of loads of people making someone else’s life a little bit better here. Both of you (among several notable others) can know with complete confidence that you’ve done that for me as I have slogged through this long episode.
@Heebie Jeebies
I really appreciate your comment. Thank you so much for following along with what has gone on with me, and taking time to share your specific experience, from within your own struggle with limerence, with me… it is invaluable to hear what others have thought, felt, how you have navigated. It really does help me feel less alone, less crazy…more that I am human. And if good, caring, worthy humans out there feel this way, and have gone through all this, then maybe I, too, am a decent person, if a flawed one…thank you.
Yes, I am in a total and complete crisis. Midlife, transition, a dark night of the soul, a total, total meltdown. You’re correct. For a while I saw it as something I could solve. At this point though? Yep, I’m admitting it I am completely dissolving, into goo, and just…being goo while I await a restructuring. Still, being goo has it’s good points, and even though I’m crying at random times, feeling like my heart is hurting (literally) at other times, and feeling like I’m dissociating at others, I am also feeling a weird ability to flow around ideas like I never have….I am feeling weirdly fluid, and that is a place I’ve never allowed myself to fully inhabit. It sucks. But I’m welcoming it. What other choice have I…hm.
I am so sorry for all the hard places you have been with your LE. But, it seems silly to say so…because between the lines of what you write, I sense a kind of…well…a sense you would not want it any other way. I sense a kind of inner awareness and capability that you have developed, and will not be disowning.
I am definitely in a less matured stage of this LE….but I recognize much of what you are describing. And yes, my situation with SO is similar to yours…but I feel more frustrated in my LTR than you, I think. I am not…as dedicated to staying at this point…I wish I were, but I cannot lie about it.
I love knowing that the positive changes you opened yourself to have made a difference. Right now, I am planning a couple of things I could try. But, of course, they feel so reactive…that’s a great word to explain what happens when a limerent attempts to help themselves – it’s hard to know if it’s really motivated by the self, within, or…yeah more likely for me, it’s just me trying to prove how healthy I am.
Still, fake it til you make it. I am a big believer in that. At some point, I would imagine, if you are having hobbies, friends, interests, that you know are beneficial, the flow of life will find you awake, one morning, and looking forward to those things, independently, all on your own….later in the day, you think of LO, and realize, they were not involved at all…and you would not have wanted them to be…
I am an LE veteran but this one has gone a bit further than others…and it’s a been ridiculously hard. Your help and support and detailed account and thoughts are so appreciated, thank you. (also, aside, you are a great writer – so organized, yet also beautifully descriptive!)
Thank you. 🙂
Hello LaR,
I saw this and wanted to congratulate you:
“As a p.s, @Bewitched, things you have said to me are proving invaluable in LE containment and reduction at the minute. I don’t have time to get into it yet, so for now just want to say thank you.”
I am so happy that you are doing better. You are so thoughtful to mention my ramblings helping you out. I really hope that you achieve what you want which is a normal friendship without any hidden feelings or agenda – something more honest and “real”, at the end of the day. At some point, I did need to replace the joy from LO reverie with other sources, to keep the recovery momentum (perhaps also to prevent slipping into a new LE). I think I mentioned that I started listening more to other people in my life and lending an ear and a hand, if needed. I have been told that I am a good listener and listening ‘with love’ and no judgement or interruption is a very important skill. (I think Mila has this skill too, I think you may have it, LaR, *many of us* on here probably have it). Its being more emotionally available to others, basically.
The way I am feeling about my LO these days is a lot more real. He is special, of course, but not in an over-sized way. I’d still do a lot to keep him happy, but these days I do it without thinking about it too much. I acknowledge that he does things for me too, so its not all one way traffic.
Yours, the “White Dame” 🤣
@bewitched @L-A-R
i am sorry to piggyback here, but it’s so interesting, @bewitched, the point you make about listening with skill and care, without judgement, with love. …it does seem integral to many here… (?) are we just a self-selecting group, or…hm. I wonder if there is something to that. To “emotional availability”, superpower…and and susceptability to limerence….hm. Fascinating observation… could it be, though, that the emotional availablity isn’t it, but what it is, is that emotional availability invites….glimmer?
Once I have listened to someone…they give me this look like….nobody has ever really heard or seen them before…
If they are someone I find remotely attractive…cue my own reaction: All Systems Go…Initiate Limerence.
Maybe when someone feels you are really listening, or really “seeing” them. That is when they give…(cue dramatic music)….the glimmer.
IDK
🙂
Jeepers CSC,
Your comment has got me thinking. Maybe I need to dial my famous listening skills way back for fear of glimmering to/for some poor unsuspecting individuals out there. I am not joking!
Good call – this is something for me to ponder.
More importantly, I am delighted that you are doing good, so far, post-coffee. Long may it continue!
Quite possibly, these LEs have been a distraction from the ‘gnarlier’ subjects that you have been grappling with in the last few years (I read your other posts). That actually makes perfect sense. Wow, you are really have some great insights and seem to be thinking so clearly. Maybe this LE is a means to something bigger and better for you CSC. Keep going with the introspection, it sounds like you are doing great work!
As for LO, I think to act with dignity and leverage the (faux?) outrage at his pity or his egocentricity, or whatever, is absolutely healthy for you right now. There is time for balance and time for self protection. Also, the narrative that we tell ourselves is so important for growth. Figuring what the best one might be could even be quite a trip. Especially with your artistic skills. I wish you all the best with that. And thank you for your kindness about the family health trauma. The narrative I tell myself about that is that it was awful but it knocked some corners off me and made me a better person, more empathetic and aware.
Post 50, I feel that I am living my best life.
Thanks for the hidden compliment, Bewitched!
Also, I agree completely on your strategy of using different mantras depending on which one is most useful at the time, I did that too, I guess, without really naming them.
You say, you got perspective on your XLO now- that’s what I thought too, but was a bit surprised today.
My XLO is very consistent in keeping contact, he is initiating almost every contact now. I was a bit touched by his loyalty, but today he proved once again how he never provides me with anything I need from a friend when it gets serious- he wrote this morning something casual, and I answered with the news that a close relative of mine is in hospital.
Everybody who learned about that today by chance, said/wrote immediately something encouraging or comforting, be they colleagues or not-so-close acquaintances. He read it at noon and hasn’t answered on it since (it’s evening here). I have to add, that’s his strategy at the moment- he initiates, I answer friendly, he doesn’t answer back until next text exchange.
But in this case, what kind of friend doesn’t answer you on a text like that? And him seeing me as his closest friend? Also, he knows that there is emotional history of this relative being in hospital and almost dying. How insensitive not to have one word for me.
I must say, that surprises me even, although I already had such a negative view of him in my resentful stage- maybe I was completely right after all and not a bit unfair, as I thought…
(As to my relative, seem to be ok now, but will know for sure in the morning).
Wow… @Mila …
First of all let me say I’m glad to hear your loved one is doing ok, and stable, and being cared for. But, I hope that when morning comes, you have some cohesive news around what is going on…I hope they will be ok.
Second, I will say – honestly, even a short and simple reaction like a heart and a “I will be in touch with a message when I get to a quiet spot in my day” or something, would be better than no message.
It’s interesting that he is so reliable, then, when things get real…where is he. Not texting? Uh.
I had a similar situation, I posted that my father had passed away. A slideshow of images…me and my Dad. Everyone else left little hearts, or “so sorry CSC’s” or whatever, maybe sent me a short DM, thinking of me, do you need anything, etc.
LO liked the post, then waited 3 days and sent me a freakin video of himself, telling me personally how sorry he was, how he was there for me if I needed to talk.
People I had known my entire life did not send videos. Butttt Naturally I fell right into the trap, “He cares!!!!”…oh dear. I will admit, freely, that I put all thoughts of my Dad aside and fell into a relapse of epic proportions. Sigh.
I share this not to go into my own situation, yet again, but to say, they sound very similar, and from my vantage, your frustration and vexation are understandable. A friend would…be a friend. Without weirdness.
I’m so sorry for what’s going on. I will hope for your loved one’s recovery — and for your own peace of mind, Mila!
Dear Mila,
I am sorry to hear about your relative. That must be hard. I guess you are all feeling destabilised by it. I hope that it gets resolved and that you and the family are okay. Its another tough aspect of life in middle age, isnt it?
Please take care of yourself and maybe let some of the others take on more work burdens, etc.?
Sorry about your relative Mila, hope their condition has improved.
When I read your descriptions of your relationship with LO I am constantly asking myself if he is limerent too, or at least has feelings. I forgot your backstory, I seem to remember you thought it was probably mutual.
I am not saying this is what is going on, but it is just an idea. I think in those situations of mutual attraction, or the long tail of the situation as it fades out, often you can have an intense relationship with someone, without ever discussing the ‘thing that we dont speak of’ or highly emotional matters, becuae it opens doors that shouldnt be opened if the current status quo is to be maintained. This is also true IMO in situations where one doesnt have feelings for a friend but suspects the other of having them. There is a massive nervousness about emotionally charged moments.
Im not saying this is the case for you, not replying to a message like that is to be frank quite heartless, but it might be an explanation.
Hi CSC and Bewitched,
thanks for your concern! My relative seems to be ok and might be able to go home tomorrow. It was all a bit much because I’ve got a big project going on at work where things go wrong too😅and it’s all quite stressful.
But I‘m relieved that this health episode seems to have gone well.
(Warning, rant coming up)
I think my XLO has noticed that I seldom initiate texts now, never reply on his kissing Emojis and am generally a bit more distanced but nice, and maybe for him it’s an effort to still initiate every few days without encouragement from my side. I felt a little bit bad about it, but now I don’t any more , because I got it proven once again, he just doesn’t get it.
As you, CSC aptly summarized:
„ It’s interesting that he is so reliable, then, when things get real…where is he. Not texting? Uh.“
It’s not giving me chocolate and updating me every few days about his life that makes a friendship, it’s about the very few moments where you would need a kind word and he doesn’t provide it.
I mean, ok, in my text I just gave the information about my relative and wrote other things too, I wasn’t directly appealing for comforting, but if it has to be spelled out for him that a reaction on that information might be the thing that’s needed… it’s just hopeless, how often do I need to see it again?
It’s very possible that he writes or calls today, but that’s not what I needed. I needed a kind word as soon as he read it, like everyone else reacted naturally.
Am I too severe and resentful again? I‘m not sure. I still don’t react to him like I would if other friends would behave like that, I guess, but 1.other friends don’t behave like that , 2. they don’t try to take the place of best friend who texts every day.
See, CSC, I can rant about my problems here without a thought of other people😆
Sorry, all!
Hi Heebie Jeebies,
thanks for your concern too!
I think the limerence was as mutual as could be with him. He’s a good friend of more than ten years. Might be he’s still limerent in his way, I don’t know, but I’m very sure he never wanted more than what we had, texting a lot, someone who he can show his life to, but never talk about emotional stuff. Limerent or not, that’s what he is/was happy with.
It’s just who he is, seems he cannot handle more, and that’s basically ok, I just have other views of a close friendship, and I pull back a bit because if we are on these terms of superficialty like he likes it, I don’t need daily texting.
I would understand if he would cut contact or be hurt now that I reduce texting. But in emergency/situations like this, if it would be the other way round, I wouldn’t care about limerence in this moment. but just be kind and there for him. Or at least react in some way.
So I don’t really think, it matters if he is limerent or not, it’s basic decent behavior, and it makes me reassess our friendship once again.
Mila,
I’d concur with everything Heebie Jeebies said. Especially that it is pretty appalling (whatever else is in the background) that he – as a friend – hasn’t bothered replying to that message. I can’t figure his side of that out at all – other than to say that he obviously can’t handle emotion very much (which you know), and that you’re right to reassess the friendship for yourself as a result.
Hope your relative will get good news in the morning.
Hi Lim-a-rant,
that’s what I thought too, that he smells emotion in this emergency situation and cannot get himself to get close to it. Maybe he‘s scared to react wrongly. (Either that or he didn’t get the need to react at all, also possible)
But I’m done with excusing everything with „he is scared, he is different, he‘s just not that person“… well, so he‘s scared of reacting wrongly and then chooses to not react at all instead of trying something, anything- so, in reality its his decision to not give me any support instead of getting a bit out of his comfort zone, and the consequence is me not valuing him as a close friend anymore.
I‘m getting a bit more selfish with age.
Sorry all, for ranting about this, while my situation is much better limerence-wise than yours might be.
But I think Lim-a-rant, you sound great. I think you are the one who could make it where I failed, keep friendship and get rid of limerence.
Mila,
“Either that or he didn’t get the need to react at all, also possible”
I just can’t see it. Maybe my brain wiring is wrong to be able to see it. But I think there is no need for you to try and rationalise for him here – his lack of reply to that message is just really, really plain bad.
“you sound great. I think you are the one who could make it where I failed, keep friendship and get rid of limerence.”
I don’t know – there are not that many in the LwL back catalogue who managed it! Finally, for about a month, I actually feel I’m on that track. Boy has it been a ding-dong to find a way here. But I am not naive to the possibility that I’ll experience the next bit you had in your journey – of more negative feelings. It might be easier to avoid because of the person my LO is, but she too does have her negative sides that can annoy me (and I can now see them – funny how we are blind to them at the height of it).
Hi LaR,
while you might dive down into negative view of LO, but you‘ll get out of it at the point where you reach a bit more perspective, and your LO sounds like someone with enough good sides to her and your friendship that the boat could straighten out again and sail forward. My LO really is special in lack of warmth and recognizing social cues.
I still bet on you!
Hi Heebie Jeebies,
I thought a bit more about this :
„ often you can have an intense relationship with someone, without ever discussing the ‘thing that we dont speak of’ or highly emotional matters, becuae it opens doors that shouldnt be opened if the current status quo is to be maintained. This is also true IMO in situations where one doesnt have feelings for a friend but suspects the other of having them. There is a massive nervousness about emotionally charged moments.“
This is not the case any more, it might have been, but that phase is long over. For me at least? But massive nervousness about emotionally charged moments might still be the cause, I think XLO generally has it, always.
I just got to the end of my tolerance of that.
I think I should calm down about it and don’t think about it any more. XLO slides another notch down on the friendship ladder and that’s it. We can still converse pleasantly and whatnot.
Next week he‘ll visit with his family, (and kind of forced me to invite other guests too that he wants to see, no care if it’s more work for us🤷🏻♀️- that was a week ago, another slightly annoying incident, followed now by this behavior..).
I’ll try not to have any contact until then and to hold down the resentment and concentrate on his SO.
Hi @Mila
I am just running off to work myself – and I am so glad to hear your relative’s situation has improved and stabilized…that is great news.
I totally agree with your rant. Honestly, it sounds like your XLO is kind of annoying you at this point. His behavior seems annoying. Not something you are taking personally, more like, “Gah! Why can’t you just be normal???”
I totally get it. I mean, you have a person in the hospital. A *normal* reply to that is even a short “Oh my gosh – I’m so sorry to hear this! I hope you’re ok, and I hope your loved one is ok. Thinking of you.” Or something to that effect.
Not radio silence.
Your expectations are at the lowest bar! The basic, basic thing! He is not even able to meet that. He can do the other stuff, the kissy faces, the emotional back and forth for fun. But…he can’t do the simple, bedrock thing, apparently, when you are facing a very normal, personal, difficult situation that doesn’t involve him. It seems like…selective breadcrumbing. ? IDK.
Ha! Now I’m ranting too! But, I’m so glad to hear your better news, and I hope your work situation improves, as well.
X CSC
CSC, and also HJ and LaR,
Thanks for validating that it’s not very appropriate behavior from a friend. I doubt myself sometimes, think I’m being too harsh on him as a (suspected, by me) neurodivergent person.
But one phrase like „Oh, hope he/she gets better soon.“ would have been enough. Even my most insensitive colleague managed that phrase once he heard about it.
It’s just a bit too little warmth and support in his relationship to me. The warmth and support might be somewhere inside of him, I don’t deny that possibility, but it’s no use to me when he never shows it to me.
I have to say that I also haven’t shown much warmth and support in the last weeks, I just don’t want to keep giving and not receiving. In the last time I just reply, nicely, but not nearly as warm as I used to be.
Still, would he have written about similar news like mine now, I would of course have replied immediately and warmly.
I‘m pondering now if this really is the last straw now and I should write him off as a closer friend, or if should still cut him some slack.
I guess I‘ll just not decide for now and think about other things, like work project going really badly at the moment🙄but my relative seems to be fine, which is priority…
Hi Mila,
Catching up on LwL, as lots been happening here.
Sorry to read about your relative and glad it’s under control. I also have had some challenges in recent days with hospital drama’s and my works been challenging.
I guess the ball is now with your friend to see if and when he responds as he should.
I hope he does the right thing ( even if tardy with some reasoning as to why. Maybe he has his own problems right now, idk), because you more than deserve it. If he doesn’t then it’s very sad and let’s be honest disappointing, and need to adopt the new mantra of ‘just let him be’ and lean in to those who really care and tell you so, including us lot ! ☺️
Hi Imho,
Thanks for your concern!
Sorry to hear that you had some drama too, I hope all went well in the end!
Work is challenging too here. We‘ll get through it💪🏻
I realize that now that I’m really stressed, I have no space left for limerent or glimmery thoughts for anyone. I wonder if that’s simply because there’s no worthy object about or if I made it to shedding the habit of using limerence as an escape.
The only reason I would understand a belated reaction of my XLO would be something very stressful going on in his own life, which I sincerely don’t hope. I already reread my last message twice to see if there might be something offending in it. But I just commented on his text, said it was a bit stressful here because of work and my relative in hospital and ended with another comment on his text. I think he simply missed the cue to react and will send a picture of his next work trip in a few days.
It’s all really stupid because I try to tamper down the resentment that followed limerence, and it would have evened out since long if he wouldn’t do such things again and again. Which forces me to consider that my negative thoughts might have not been as exaggerated as I thought.
How is it with you at the moment, limerence getting worse when stressed, or does real stress cancel it out? No need to answer!
The reason I can still write so much is that I do short heavy bursts of work and then breaks during which I write here for example…
But don’t feel obliged to answer!
I appreciate it so much that you all answer on my petty concerns and show some concern about my relative even though there’s no real need since we don’t know each other. there might be a truth in limerents being good listeners, or maybe it’s something we all yearn for (someone reacting sensitively and caring) and therefore give it to others?
Mila,
Well he certainly missed your cue, and maybe you were too subtle. Next message he should genuinely be checking in on you, or else … !
You ask a good question . For me when I’m busy, even stressed but in control and around other people then my limerence thoughts lessen, because I’m focused elsewhere.
I work a lot on my own which is not good for ruminations etc.
When I’m stressed and feel not in control, overwhelmed or feel too much is on my shoulders (at home also)then my limerence worsens. My resilience is very low and I certainly use LE as an escape and LO gives me a feeling of hope to give me some of his strength, energy and joy.
Home and family are not giving me any of this right now, and its draining.
I also come here as comfort and distraction as part of my procrastination tactics.
I will get there and just need to apply my brain to the tasks in hand 💪🏻
Hi Imho,
well, I don’t know.. how can it be a too subtle cue to write that a very close relative is in hospital?
In this case I have to say that we really don’t fit as friends. It seems I always have to spell it out, and even when I did spell it out in past times, he never reacted in a way that I felt helpful, as I remember.
I‘ll just let it and him be now.
„Home and family are not giving me any of this right now, and its draining.“
Sorry about that! Sometimes it happens that the other family members are at the same time in some situation or difficult state of mind of their own and cannot provide support as one would wish.
If thoughts of your LO as role model help you through the difficult phase, why not. This bloody limerence has to have some advantages!
Wish you all the best and that things get more relaxed/ better soon.
Mila,
When he comes to visit be sure to give him something random from the back of the freezer that you cannot remember what it is and is probably out-of-date 🤣
Other than that, yes just ‘let him ‘ as the phrase goes.
Thanks for your wishes. Let’s make it a 💪🏻 end to the working week.
Imho,
your memory is astounding!😂
If I would give him something from the back of my freezer, I would probably get some jail time for deliberately poisoning. I don’t really want to know what dark stuff is going on in that area of my kitchen.
Bewitched,
Thank you 😊
I want to write a fuller reply when I have time, but thought you may like to know that the bits you said that have been the most help are: 1. ‘Familiarity’ / ‘exposure therapy’ points (caveat – won’t work for everyone but fits my circumstances); 2. Telling me to keep faith that it does slowly burn itself through / go further towards back of the mind, even at stages when it seemed impossible to me; 3. Mantras (‘futile because …’ does eventually start to make an impression on the F as well as the T brain – it is becoming more ‘automated’ now)
I think maybe we all just get tired of it eventually?? Most on here don’t seem to go beyond 2 years or so of high intensity limerence for the same LO.
“I really hope that you achieve what you want which is a normal friendship without any hidden feelings or agenda”
It now feels much more like that. Hope it stays that way. What is pleasing is I haven’t swung the other way into resentment etc, just a more realistic view. Who knows if it will head that way, but hope not. She is in the front of my mind much less when I’m not around her now – more like hours at times, than the previous nanoseconds. Slightly more free ‘bandwith’. And at some point (I can’t consciously put an exact moment on it, weirdly) she stopped being my last thought at night and first in the morning every day.
“I did need to replace the joy from LO reverie with other sources, to keep the recovery momentum”
That I now really do need to work on. One hurdle at a time, though.
“Its being more emotionally available to others, basically.”
TBC! CSC has raised great questions about this bit, and I have more to input too.
I am also glad to hear that your recovery seems to continue on good tracks – bravo, White Dame!
Dear LaR,
Indeed you are a mind reader and I was curious to know which things were helpful for you. It is interesting to ponder what is common to us limerents and what things are unique experiences, so your feedback was so interesting. I can sometimes get a glimpse of how my own personality and personal history shapes my responses to this LE, but its usually quite fleeting and difficult to articulate. Often, someone else says it better, then I can recognise it. All of this is, more generally, something very interesting to me at this point in my life. Post-50, I have become quite interested in my siblings and I, our parents and what makes everybody tick (as well as why we struggle at times). A lot of the ‘listening with love’ has actually taken place with family members and with girlfriends (so I hope I haven’t caused problems for anyone – TBC!).
As for your recovery, the trajectory is familiar to me! When you said this:
“She is in the front of my mind much less when I’m not around her now – more like hours at times, than the previous nanoseconds. Slightly more free ‘bandwith’. And at some point (I can’t consciously put an exact moment on it, weirdly) she stopped being my last thought at night and first in the morning every day.”
I remember feeling exactly like this and I remember that, though it was progress, it did go on for some time (perhaps prepare yourself for that!). I think the issue was that, I was still getting a little euphoric ‘supply’ – just occasionally, at that point. In the next recovery stage, the supply dried up and I could not conjure any euphoria at all, no pleasant thoughts, only beige neutrality. That new phase happened imperceptibly too. But, like I say, I was stuck at the stage you are at now for quite a while. I really do think that what LO gets up to, and how ambiguous they are being was detrimental to my getting through that stage faster. This is where my mantras helped – because the LO ambiguity doesn’t matter. … knowing that and believing it are two different things, of course.
Well, that’s what worked for me but everybody’s different. Keep on rocking and rolling on, LaR – you’re doing great.
Hi Bewitched,
It is really interesting to see where the dynamics of people on here healing from their different LEs is similar and different, isn’t it? I especially find it fascinating that neither of us can pinpoint the exact time that the volume was turned down – though I have a clear month or so window when it happened, I just don’t know when exactly.
Yes, I am aware that ‘supply’ is still there for me on a pretty regular and unavoidable basis. Thank you for the tip that the next stage could take some time. I won’t deliberately prolong it but, if it does turn out like that, it is good to be prepared and it still feels a relief to be able to manage it now on a lower bandwith.
I’m also not naive that I could slide backwards, or the other way into more ‘faux’ reactionary negative feelings towards her. I am pleased that hasn’t happened yet. It does sometimes creep in, but is balanced by continued (but definitely less limerent) positive feelings at other times.
The biggest of all your points was the one about familiarity being capable of creating change…
After going back in January, LO and I had to temporarily work together a lot more – all day, every day, basically, so we suddently went to a higher level of ‘familiarity’. I found (and it seemed like she found too) that it is impossible to just radiate the shiny side out of oneself, and see it in the other person, for that much of the time. You get a much more holistic view of each other forced by that level of exposure. As NC was never an option, maybe this ‘exposure therapy’ was the next best thing.
There was also a conversation that happened between us – it came up quite naturally and without an apparent threat level, if that makes sense – during that same spell, about what level and dynamics of friendship we both felt were appropriate, given that I have an SO … and how that might feel to all three involved parties (there was never a hint of disclosure of feelings, but it was there as the unsaid elephant in the room that we, ‘of course weren’t talking about’). The outcome wasn’t anything like ‘we can’t be friends’ but more like ‘these are sensible limits to set’. That all sounds very clinical when I write it out but it was a very constructive conversation with a lot of attention paid to each other’s feelings. I am really lucky that the person my limerent searchlight landed on is capable of such a mature conversation when the subject is so delicate.
I guess these two things plus the eventual greater sinking in of the message “it is futile, as this is never going to happen” have really come together to have a positive effect. I look forward to the heady days of “beige neutrality” (I think … as much as beige neutrality is ever to look forward to!).
—
I also wanted to address your point about how being a listening ear for others helped you move on. It gives me pause for thought. Before I say anything else, I’m really glad it worked and is working for you – that’s all that matters as far as your recovery goes. I would not second guess *anything* that’s working for you, as your progress sounds great, and sustained.
For me – and this taps at CSC’s point about whether a ‘listening ear superpower’ has some correlation with us limerents – I have always been quite an emotionally available person, leaned on by others for being a listener. I get why without needing to go into it. I want to be able to embrace this quality of myself, as you have about yourself. However, I also think overdoing this role towards others was a catalyst for my LE. I don’t know if you find this, but when you (plural) are typecast as a listener, it can be harder to reverse the roles and get the other person to listen to you when you need it. That’s been true for me at several different points in life. It is one thing that made/makes LO special – she listens to me – like *really really* listens to me. I am certain this was a glimmer trigger.
But back to myself – I think my recovery will differ from yours in that what I need to do is make more time for myself (Snow knows it!). That’s a thing I find more difficult than listening to others (CSC, if you are seeing this, I just know you will relate!). That’s the next step to really look at for me. As for listening to others – I think what I can look at is where the LE has vacuumed my energy away from friends and family, and look to restore some of it, without taking too much on. The bigger selfish priority is to find more space and time for myself – to fill the holes in healthier ways that I have leant on LO/the LE to fill. SO, work etc fit within that, but not at the expense of ‘me time’. A lack of that has probably been my biggest struggle that has underpinned the whole LE, but only I can change it. Realisation of it is the first step to action on it.
I have a question for you. You seem to have achieved a real sense of stability / equilibrium. But a while back I saw you mention maybe going NC with him moving forward. Only answer this if you want, but why do you feel like that might be the right move if you already feel stabilised?
Take care for now, and please keep dispensing your valuable wisdom on LwL for as long as you feel able!
LaR
LaR,
“she stopped being my last thought at night and first in the morning every day.”
Wow, congratulations! Great milestone, truly!
I’ve noticed that lately your name hasn’t been on the “last posted” list – I took that to be a good sign. Or maybe you were just busy with your ‘exposure therapy’!
And yikes, that conversation could have taken a turn anywhere, but you both managed it. It’s both a blessing and a curse that your LO is so sensible and tactful (since those qualities appeal to you). Are you sure that the conversation occurred naturally? Maybe she steered it that way..? Sorry if I am planting seeds in your head (I did need to get a farming reference in there)!
As for me, just today I felt appreciative that I can always go to TO for support with every day (work) things. He is so reliable in that way. And I’ve felt more stable (less instances of being annoyed) with the relationship. Not that I was often annoyed, before. It’s not limerence, but I will admit it’s a type of codependence. As witnessed by the instances when I don’t hear from him for – gasp! – a whole afternoon and evening. After the initial ‘withdrawal’ (I’m exaggerating here) dies off, I think “hmm… We could just continue this NC a little longer and I could be ok with it”. But I’m just going with it for now, trying to ensure it doesn’t hold me back from other things life. Which is not always easy to determine (“Would I be more active in this or that if he didn’t exist?”).
Hi Trifles,
It’s great to hear from you!
“I’ve noticed that lately your name hasn’t been on the “last posted” list – I took that to be a good sign”
On the whole, yes, less LwL posting = good signs about my LE. I sometimes have to be careful not to just replace LO contact or the wish for it with posting here! But I’m very much still following along and commenting when I have anything useful to say, and a few posts have piqued my interest again lately.
“Are you sure that the conversation occurred naturally? Maybe she steered it that way..?”
You are shrewd as ever with this question. It was a steer from her in response to a steer from me – so she didn’t start it but acted on a trigger. I brought up some wider life stuff with her (you can probably connect some dots) that might well have raised questions in her head. She wouldn’t *ever* want to be seen as ‘that person’ by me, or by my SO, or by others (if you think about any caution you might have ever felt about your interactions with TO, you’ll get it – but your case is different in that TO’s marriage is dead, from all you say). I respect that side of her, and it hasn’t changed anything much other than to beneficially calm the LE. All I have ever wanted (in my reality, not lim-brain) is to go back to being ‘proper friends’ with her. Anything that speeds that along has got to be good. I feel no threat to that. But dammit doesn’t all this sound a bit too ‘civil’? Of course lim-brain still shouts at me, but markedly less so at the moment.
“It’s both a blessing and a curse that your LO is so sensible and tactful”
Can you expand on what you reckon the ‘curse’ side is? Do you mean that it prolongs the LE because she’s like that? Overall I take it as a blessing, as if she dealt with it less tactfully (as so very many people would – we see examples here all the time), it could be a real whack to me. As it is, I’m just nurdling along with less of the invigorating colour to life than when in full LE, but with the trade off of reduced intrusive thoughts and need to analyse it. How did you find that bit worked when you started to step out of your LE? I think the trade-off is worth it, but I do miss the good bits!
I’m glad to hear you feel more settled with the TO situation. That last question of yours really is the $64,000 one, isn’t it?! You said a while ago you were going to try out a new hobby that you’d found … did you, and how did that go? Like in my reply last night to you and CSC, I think baby steps are key. And I’m as guilty as anyone of letting the LE hold me back in other areas, which I can hopefully start to address as next steps.
I’m glad to hear you’re doing OK though 🙂 Spring’s coming soon, longer days and plenty to be done on the farm ……
LaR,
Nice to hear from you too!
“Can you expand on what you reckon the ‘curse’ side is?”
You cut out the ending of my sentence there, where I said that you must like that part of her where she is sensible and tactful. And thus it can prolong the LE. I know I get sentimental when I see an LO or potential love interest acting in a very gentlemanly or noble way… But maybe that’s just me!
“How did you find that bit worked when you started to step out of your LE?”
I’m sorry but the postscript part of my last LE (and the first one) are in a haze to me. I just remember the final struggle of keeping NC (“Must. Not. Text.”) and then nothing. This time I did get ‘transference’, i.e. distraction, to help, as you know. And so there was not as much of a void left over.
It’s interesting, after the last LE (and during the heights, of course), I’ve strangely felt happier than usual, I laugh more, and I’m more grateful in general, for the little things. And I’m still ‘that annoying limerent’ who sings along to the music in their headphones on a walk (only when no one’s around!). I don’t know what to attribute this to… I’ll take the usual suspect of midlife hormones! That, or I’ve learned or held onto something from my LE. So it is not all beige and dismal! (Oh no, the cynics will say that I must still be limerent!)
About the new hobby, unfortunately I had understood wrong where it would be arranged, and it’s not that close to me after all. So I haven’t started, maybe later. Funnily, I was just invited into another small sport-related group (all women), I’m happy for that! It’s nice to make new friends as an adult.
Also, I of course tell TO about all my small crushes, and he encourages me to pursue them – in a ‘vicarious enjoyment’ kind of way. So he has his back covered against accusations that he might be holding me back! 😉
“Spring’s coming soon, longer days and plenty to be done on the farm…”
I bet you can’t wait to take out that combine harvester! Speaking of spring, I will be visiting England in spring, yay! Just the capital however. It’s so easy just to whizz through that tunnel, I don’t know why I don’t do it more often! 😉 But from some hints – probably farming-related – I’ve gathered that you might be somewhat north from there. Otherwise I would’ve tried to visit your farm. 😜
Trifles,
It’s really nice to hear that you have carried positivity with/from/after the LE. You keep singing along in those headphones girl! Good also that you’re in on a new sport (cheese-rolling?? – look it up – weak effort on my part, but the closest I could think of to farming).
It’s definitely not all beige-dismal here. I’ve just got some new emotions playing off and a slightly altered (?unaltered) state of mind to acclimatise to. Now I have the see-saw more balanced it is a fine line not to tip it either way. I’m doing OK though.
What will bring you to English shores, if you can say? It is testament to your LwL ‘optics management’ skills that I still have no idea if the other side of the Chunnel is true or a cover story 🤣 Any more than you know for sure whether or not I work (for real) in one of the two professions of that pair of blasted zombie-dodging layabouts at the Amoor’s Inn!
You are definitely not acres out with your geographical guesswork. North, East, South, West – I have told you before, the Inn appears as a room of requirement, and my farm by association!! I will say that the price of a farming estate in London (if any such thing even exists) would be astronomical 😁
Hello LaR,
I wanted to get back to this:
“Yes, I am aware that ‘supply’ is still there for me on a pretty regular and unavoidable basis. Thank you for the tip that the next stage could take some time. I won’t deliberately prolong it but, if it does turn out like that, it is good to be prepared and it still feels a relief to be able to manage it now on a lower bandwith.”
I think once hope is extinguished, that we get less ‘supply’ as a consequence. That leads to inevitable realism in LO interactions and potentially creeping resentment or indifference. For recovery, a good thing to focus on is keeping the ‘supply’ low (via death of hope) and yet not over-correcting the realism in the direction of resentment, where possible, although this does depend on the LO. If you genuinely relate well to each other, it should not happen or if it does happen, it should not last for very long. As you and your LO seem to relate well, I have great hopes for you continuing on this path and relating well together on the long term. My LO is sweet, so I think that is why I can maintain less resentment for him these days for wasting my time – remembering that I feel that he encouraged me. But all of our circumstances are different and it really is context-dependent.
Nevertheless, all that said, I am still “brittle” where LO is concerned and that is why I floated the idea of NC a few posts ago. [And well spotted LaR! – I knew you’d notice that when I wrote it 😊, a Gold Star to you]. My LO is annoying at times and sometimes I think I can’t stand it. But then, how much of that is just me recalibrating, where he is concerned? – I mean trying to calibrate how much energy is too much energy wasted on him? As my LO is a bit hyper and chaotic, I do need patience for him and sometimes, these days, I feel that I don’t want to deal with him anymore. I have autonomy at work and can decide to pull the plug any time, but that would mean losing touch with a bunch of other people who are great, not just him, and I don’t want to do that unless I am really overwhelmed with other work and no bandwidth for all of them. Also, because my LO has had some disadvantages in his life, I don’t want to do a runner on him. I know that this group would miss me if I left, not least because I am a grafter.
As for you, LaR, I see what you mean about always providing a listening ear to others and how this has perhaps held you back from much needed personal growth. If you do not mind me saying so, you appear to be a Master at not leaving any loose ends, including here on LwL, you are so careful at following up on threads and supporting people very fully. I do believe that, in order to have some more ‘LaR-time’, you may need to cut yourself a little slack and to swoop in and out of providing that solid support for people rather than being there 24-7 (being so dependable?). What I really mean is that if you are doing this online, I can only imagine what’s happening in real life? I think you understand all of this very well as your self-awareness is on-point. But maybe you don’t allow yourself any slack – if so, why not? We all deserve that, especially those of us who are generally conscientious. I speak as someone who is “the dependable one” myself. Perhaps its easier to ask that for yourself when you have a particular activity in mind, like, “Ta ra – I am off to the shed/gym/library/pool/studio for while” or “sorry, I can’t that’s my evening for martial arts/life drawing/crochet circle/book club”. Wouldn’t it be lovely if us conscientious folks could appeal to a higher power that says ‘I hereby absolve you of all responsibilities apart from fun for the next two hours’. I think that would work wonderfully well in your case as well as my own – although I am working on getting better at it 😊.
LaR,
Oh, just visiting Hogwarts… A mix of business and pleasure!
Bewitched,
Again, thank you. It is useful to know what might be coming down the pipes on the ‘recalibration’ front. I am in a nice place about it at the moment compared to previously, so I won’t over-analyse and create a problem where there currently is none!
I have a hunch you can somehow make it with your LO without going NC on him and other people around him that you’d miss. The calibration is probably continual but I think you’ve got a good handle on it nowadays. I understand and relate to all of it.
As for ‘availability’, I really concur with a lot of what you’re saying. We are possibly quite similar you and I, in this way, and whatever else I now say, you’re basically correct on this point.
What you’ve seen with attention I’ve paid to people/issues on LwL has possibly been more of a substitution for what I normally do ‘in real life’ than taking place on top of it. I think the limerence reduced my capacity to be a listening ear to lots of other people IRL – sometimes their issues seemed (incorrectly) mundane compared to the lim-maelstrom in my head. I already find I can do a bit more of that again now, probably like you experienced. I also think – and maybe it is you who said this to me before, but could have been someone else – that when we are going through the apex of an LE, all we really want to do is the very one thing we can’t – tell our LO aaaalllllllll about it so we know we aren’t going mad!! And mostly we can’t even talk to our friends about it either.
So – and I’m sure many others relate – I directed more effort into LwL and the people here at the times I was most struggling with all that. Because here, even if immersing in someone else’s LE dramas, we are still immersing with the very issue that is bothering us in real life – limerence. I used LwL a lot as a substitute for thinking about my own limerence – withdrawal, the conversations I couldn’t have with her, or doing stupid things that would force such conversations. It succeeded where the last two are concerned. And yeah, I don’t like loose ends or ambiguities, that’s true. I’ve eased back on LwL a fair bit now (last couple of days were an exception because there has just been so much of interest and lots of my favourite posters are active – but nice to feel able to dip in and out). You are correct that to get more ‘LaR time’, I’ll need to ease back even more – I can see the benefit. Every second here is time spent thinking about limerence, which as recovery continues, we want to do less of, right?!
And I think it’s my cue to stop rambling and go and make the dinner for me and SO 😂
@L-A-R
I echo @bewitched to say you are such a thoughtful replier, and post-er. I understand– though historically I have not been regularly present here over time– about using a place like this to maybe keep yourself in a headspace, rather than getting out and about, or doing new things…etc etc… (Currently, I am guilty of that, but forgiving myself, because I’m engaging in what seems to be proto-NC…I’m half out of my mind, which is only about half a mind to start, so I technically have about a quarter left. ha)
What you say about the private nature of being in limerence…yes. It’s like this tiny thing (maybe one small, 2 minute interaction with LO) takes up huge proportions, life-altering ones, often. A “normal” person would say “get a grip!” but here, people understand that an LE basically opens up a huge pocket universe…so out of proportion. And we fall into it, and it isn’t something one simply hops out of, singing tra la la.
Anyway, I hope even if you do go to take more L-A-R time, you will walk around confidently knowing your presence and understanding makes a healthy difference for me, in what I am going through. The key word being through. Not stopping. Going through.
But…if you take more time off here, just know that makes sense too! You have got to do your thing. You have a lot to share, and give, and receive. And I would bet that being here helps you see that. I sincerely hope so. 🙂
A friend once told me about her concept of “friendship amnesty”. This meant that if I disappeared, or she did, for years…there would be no ill will. This would mean we were both able to imagine each other, out in the world, and be pleased at that. I always liked that idea. 🙂
I’m jealous of all of you, lol.. 😂😂
I wish I could be more of a thoughtful replier to all your limerent drama.. You’ve always been waaay to good to me I’m your responses.. I just never have the time to be here it seems..
Where do you all find the time??
🤔🤯😵🤣
Shush that doubting bit of yourself MJ, you’ve been so solid for me since my very first post. You and Adam as a duo to each other were at the top of my mind when I wrote yesterday about people making others’ lives better. I can see how a lot of other LwL folk appreciate you too.
Thanks LaR..
All I can think to say is
“We’re not worthy, we’re not worthy..”
🤣🤣🙏🏼🙏🏼
MJ,
I was once told that 9/10 people in any situation have imposter syndrome. I conducted a little social experiment and it bore out that result.
If 9/10 are ‘imposters’, then ‘imposters from what?’. Answer: other imposters!
I think this is a bit what LwL is like – us ragtag bunch of overwrought, overthinking, overworried, overpolite folks.
You can definitely say that again about overthinking and overworried. I do waaaay too much of both. Life would be so much simpler if I didn’t do either..
Thank you again LaR. You are too kind to dumb animals.. 🤣🤣
LaR,
Are you going to meet Trifles on the platform 9 3/4, take Hogwarts’ express together, then treat her with a jar of giggly tea and giant sweet trifles in a Hogwarts’ bright corner?
I’m waiting to hear the magical meetup news!
LaR,
“I think this is a bit what LwL is like – us ragtag bunch of overwrought, overthinking, overworried, overpolite folks.”
It’s an accurate insight applied not just in LwL, but the whole mainstream of the whole world, where most of people cannot and do not dare to rant like few of us here…
Again, a deep gratitude to Dr L for creating such a safe space!
https://youtu.be/e43i7YcPrvc?si=s6Jisc-o_53l8nxh — This Happens When Your Finally Choose Yourself Above All | Carl Jung
Snow,
Ha, wouldn’t it be funny if/when TO won’t agree to meet me*, but LaR would??
(*Not in England, but elsewhere)
You would have to come up with a better meeting place for us than platform 9 3/4 though! It’s a wee bit crowded, I hear…
Don’t I remember that you also had a Europe trip planned – or did you have it already?
I’m sorry to hear about your nerve pain, sending you some well-wishes!
Trifles,
Ha, wouldn’t it be funny if/when TO won’t agree to meet me*, but LaR would??
Well, LaR is not your TO yet, so he can meet you or anyone here if he likes. Currently, he’s too busy with his MFF and SO; however, there is always a possibility that meeting a LwL “ghost” can take your TO and his MFF off your respective mind substantially— think of all the Amoor Inn’s conversations we all have had! If so, bingo, LwL will neutralize two “LE makers” simultaneously — a stone for two birds!
“You would have to come up with a better meeting place for us than platform 9 3/4 though! It’s a wee bit crowded, I hear…”
That’s a real challenge for LaR’s boasted intuition — see if he can spot you out in the crowd of the platform 9 3/4! Don’t describe anything about your physiques to him!
“Don’t I remember that you also had a Europe trip planned – or did you have it already?”
Yes I’m still coming in April for my own B-day. My good, POOR French girlfriend may join me to adore the “David” perfect body and trace Casanova’s footsteps…. I just learned that she has become a SO of her middle-aged husband “suddenly” in LE/PA, I don’t know 😞 how to effectively comfort the shocked her without mentioning LwL; so I invited her (already moved out of their shared house, a part of which is from the Roman Empire period 3-4 BC) to join my tour; she has not decided yet.
Thank you for your good wishes for my stupid back that can walk and stand or lie down, but not sit or bend; I’m under heavy medication and heating therapy to reduce its sharp pain and will start a physical therapy soon.
When are you heading for Hogwarts?
Snow,
not better yet? Physiotherapy will surely help, I’m sure! Hang in there! (Or is it hang on? No, must be hang in)
Snow, Trifles,
You two are just getting too funny 🤣
Trifles, you do know you can *actually* visit Hogwarts in London?! (Seriously). Anyway … i’ll be under the Whomping Willow at 9 with a butterbeer for you🍺 … if ‘you know who’ hasn’t got me by then.
I am certain I could pick you out on Platform 9 3/4 if need be, though.
And don’t think I missed your cheeky little 🪝reference in the other thread either!
Snow – I join the chorus of well wishes hoping this trapped nerve clears for you really soon. You sound like you have very exciting holiday plans ahead🍕
Mila,
Thank you for your sweet heart!
I’m better than 10 days ago (teaching in standing was okay), but one nerve is still under sharp pain, so I can’t sit long or bend down to pick up anything (I’m lying typing now). I’m told by my doctor it’s inflamed muscle compressing that nerve, so have to treat that muscle first. I’ll start physical therapy next week.
I’m glad that your relative is in much condition now, physical illness is sooooo unpleasant or scary sometimes! Our health is and should be always our top priority!
I saw your post to CSC, For your xLO, please allow me to repeat one thing I said before — lower down our expectations from anyone and anything outside our control. Since he’s gone, can you NOT expect anything from your xLO — a very odd ball, anymore?
In or out of your xLE, I did/do not quite understand why his (in)actions in messages bothered you so much, especially after the LE with him is over. We all agree with you that you cannot change who he was/is and what/how he would do something in relation to you or your life.
Naming him a friend or not is not as important as your peace and joy of mind. I just wish whatever he did, does, or will do, is and will be out of your care and consideration.
Mila, you’re so strong, smart and caring, why let a piece of history affect your current and future mental state? 🫂
Hi Snow,
of course you are right, but he‘s still supposed to be my friend, and I realize he doesn’t behave like a true friend somehow. I know I shouldn’t expect, I just wonder if he‘s really a friend.
Also, I don’t want to be unfair, like judging him too harshly because I was limerent and tend to be too resentful towards him, that’s why I ask here for advice, I don’t trust my own judgement here completely.
Nerve pain is horrible, but I’m sure you will get better with patience! Good luck and all the best!
LaR, Oh yes, and I *am* going to Hogwarts! Although I must admit I have to look up some of your and Snow’s HP references.
Now I’m kind of curious how you would pick me out of the crowd at the platform… But I’m already planning my outfit for the occasion… I’ll be on the lookout for a farmer – one should be fairly easy to notice in the middle of London.
Snow, it’s actually in April as well! Looks like us limerents will be jetting around Europe at that time. I hope your friend agrees to join you. And I think it’s enough just to be there for her as a friend.
LaR,
“You know who” likes and has highly praised Trifles. Now knowing she’s coming to Hogwarts, he might well blow you out of the Weeping Willow right before her arrival! What Hogwarts’ tricks have you learned so far to meet the possible challenge? 😀
I’m looking forward to my Spring break trip. If my heartbroken French girlfriend can’t join me for some reasons, I’ll set up my B&B room for a bar of Amoor Inn, serving real cocktails for our patrons. 🍸 🍹
I’ll try my might to get my back in tall standing!
Trifles, you mean you don’t remember? You said you were a dead ringer for the barmaid in ‘Pianoman’ so I’m sure I could spot that! Just whistle the tune as the farmer walks past and it is bound to work. I was going to put my best suit on for the occasion too, but I guess I will look just like any other Londoner then. I know the month now so we’re getting closer to this happening 🤣 This all fits perfectly anyway, as the Chunnel comes out right next door to where platform 9 3/4 can be found.
Snow – a magician never reveals his tricks! 🧙♂️🪄
LaR, Trifles,
One is on lookout for a farmer, one is putting on best suit, driving a ploughing tractor? That’s going to look really spectacular in the middle of London!
I’m looking forward to see your meet/hook 🆙
LaR, Oh sure… I was just testing to see if you remembered. 😉 Now, where to find a pink polkadotted dress… (I must admit, I had almost forgotten about that clue and was planning on wearing one of my chic French outfits.)
Just two minor hiccups in the plan. One, you need to do some more research on the whereabouts of platform 9 3/4 – unless you are trying to throw some of the ghostly muggles off the scent. And two, I can’t whistle..! 🙈
Ok, make it a serenade rather than a whistle, and I’ll be sure to watch for the beret too! You’ll have an easier job if I turn up on the tractor.
The Hogwarts tourist attraction is elsewhere, but the location of the platform in the books/films and the British end destination of the Eurostar are right next door to each other. I say this, with my obviously limited London knowledge ..
give me a remote cornfield over the English capital any day!
LaR, Oops, my bad! I had my coordinates confused. If you have any off-the-beaten track, more whimsical tips for London I’d be grateful to hear those. I know I must at least try a trifle – do they serve those with afternoon tea?
Hmm … finding a good trifle in London might be a challenge, so worth a bit of advanced research if you do really want to try one.
The problem is, the trifle (only the dessert, before you think I’m venturing towards banned lines!!) has been around a long time. My Gran made a mean one. She’s now too old sadly, but my Mum has her recipe. I’ll have to get Mum to make me one to bring down to Hogwarts 😅. But this gives it a sort of ‘classic’ rep that’s out of step with the gastropub and afternoon tea market for the young ‘uns. You may still occasionally get them on pub and restaurant menus, but not in places trying to be too ‘trendy’.
After some searching, I found it is the signature dessert at a pub called The Cadogan Arms, Chelsea. A place called Humble Crumble in Borough Market may also be worth a look, but that could be a trifle with a twist more than the classic. Failing all that, the chilled aisle in M&S Food or Waitrose!
If you would like anything further by way of recommendations from this free tourist information service, let me know the sort of ‘whimsical’ vibe you’re after and I’ll happily think. I don’t know how well you know the city (I don’t even know it too well, but
I do pop down there most years to the farmers’ convention) so I don’t want to teach you to suck eggs!
LaR,
I’d definitely take your Mom’s freshly made trifle, a huge cup of fresh giggly tea, and an ear of fresh local 🌽 — not imported from Indonesia, and enjoy them in a bright corner of Hogwarts….
Oh my gosh LaR, you are better than AI! I will have to go to both Cadogan Arms and Humble Crumble. They sound great! Though I would of course prefer to try your Mum’s trifle.
It’s ages since I’ve been to London, but I’ve seen the main sites and prefer to go slightly off the beaten track anyway. I trust your yearly farmers’ convention trips keep you up-to-date on what the trendy Londoners are up to. 😁 But I’m not yet sure what all I want to do… There must be just so much that I wouldn’t even think of! I’ll look into some smaller theatre companies and stand up comedy clubs, etc.
(We are a bit off-topic again, but this *is the coffee house…)
“You’re better than AI”
Wow, that’s some high praise indeed 😂
Yes, we are, as often, off topic. I’m sure the world of LwL will forgive us – I think it is fine in a coffeehouse, especially since there is a newer one where folks are very much on topic and lots of newcomers are joining in. It is good for me to stay ‘off topic’ some of the time at the moment (I’ll elaborate on-topic sometime, but in short, the time of flux is continuing apace).
Anyway – if you like your comedy, I have a London recommendation. I rate this show as about the best comedy around … it has been going 30 years, every Sunday night. I think some of them are still the original people too:
https://comedystoreplayers.com/
It’s unscripted and always hilarious. You wouldn’t regret it if you can get to see them.
As for the ‘off the beaten track’ – it’s hard to know in London, as it is quite a large beaten track. For a bit of purposefully naive livin’, you could do much worse than start a ‘Tube A-Z’ – get an underground map, pick a letter, go to first stop you spot beginning with that letter and just explore whatever’s there! Rinse and repeat with next letter. It keeps it surprising. Just don’t do it in search of a specific 🍨(sorry, no emoji for a trifle) on the menu. Take that, ChatGPT 😀
LaR, Ok, you’re right, that may not have come across as the highest praise. 😅 But for context, I had been playing around with AI and was seriously impressed with the suggestions it made. But yours were much better! And AI knows everything (at least on the internet).
That improv comedy troop would have been *exactly* my thing! It’s a shame that I won’t be in London on a Sunday. Next time I will have to stay for a longer time! The “tube a-z” sounds fun too. I’ve done that when I was younger and was spending a whole summer in a new city and wanted to explore everything. This time I’m hoping the London weather will surprise me pleasantly – at least on one day! – and I want to find a nice place for a picnic. Do you have any suggestions there, LaRGPT?
And I’m glad to be of service for a distracting task. I hope you are able to surf that wave of whatever limerence had in store for you lately.
Trifles,
@picnic,
I have fond memories of a hazy spring afternoon/evening on Primrose Hill (part of Hamptstead Heath)… but it was more than 20 years ago, might have changed..
Don’t worry, I totally knew you meant well and was just playing in the reply. I am probably just a bit slower on the bandwagon of “up the AI revolution”. Now where’s my well-thumbed copy of Lonely Planet??
The British weather is capable of being surprising in April – in either direction. One year recently we went from a garden BBQ on Good Friday to below zero on Easter Monday. But let’s keep positive and dwell on the bbq part!
I’d probably say take your picnic to Regents Park and/or Primrose Hill (they adjoin). You can go boating (pedalo or canoe) on the lake in Regents if that grabs you. St James’ Park is also nice. I saw some rare types of bird there (feathered variety!) that I haven’t seen anywhere else. Maybe the King is paying for their upkeep from his nearby throne.
Wherever you’re staying, you should fine there is a surprisingly good amount of parks dotted about nearby.
@Mila – ‘snap’ with Primrose Hill!
The only thing there is that the air can be a bit ‘fragrant’ …
Dear L-A-R,
Thank you for thinking of me…
I never would have thought of my two different brains (lim and exec) in the wake of that dinner question…and my response. It’s a huge relief to me to feel like somewhere, in all this confusion, there may be an executive who rises up, and protects me from what my instincts know is not to my benefit. I just love that idea.
Believe it or not, I have not hit the absolute wall of withdrawal I was anticipating. I am not trying to avoid it. It has been relatively effortless (relatively, compared to total melting down of all months prior).
Thurs was coffee. Total overwhelm. Friday was absolutely a mental sh*tshow, near total collapse. Spent on couch, resting, alternately posting here to maintain sanity. But…Saturday, actually, was great. I did run into LO. He again said thank you. Wherein I (ok yes, I am ashamed to admit this)…did not bravely get vulnerable, but instead, angled for dinner. Fail. I angled for some other kind of thank you…possible time together to go to a fun, less- formal food spot he had mentioned, earlier…partial fail, partial future commitment with no real date in mind. Who can tell. My takeaway: he feels obligated to thank me, that is all.
After that, I thought, Chere CSC, you know what? Drop this. Drop it now. Right effing now. You, milady, are on a fool’s errand. There is nothing wrong with you, except that you keep caring.
Luckily, that morning I had plans to meet a bunch of people who light me up…and in afternoon I had plans with three wonderful girlfriends. I did not have to spend time with my introverted, weirdly demanding SO that day. Instead, I was free as a bird to be my social self.
So, off I went and thoroughly enjoyed my day. I didn’t look around for a substitute LO. I didn’t crave knowing if LO was thinking of me. I didn’t ruminate. Nothing. Just went out and about with my friends. I felt energized, excited, I felt like the best version of myself.
At times, I would think…I am going to go into grief over this. It will just happen. But maybe, maybe, I will not go into meltdown/withdrawal as I have in days past. I will make every effort to remember today and all the fun I had, all the warmth and love I felt from my friends (who do not know anything about my LE, I have not shared it)…they love me and care about me. And that is proof I am not this desperate, lacking person I have felt myself to be. I am not perfect. I am not 25. But I am ok.
On Sunday, I ran back into LO. We chatted for about 20 minutes. But, otherwise, I spent the day with SO. It was ok. A bit…exhausting.
Yesterday, a text from LO but, I managed to say “it is meaningless, do not overanalyze.”
Ran into him today, said a friendly hello, an he immediate told me he was on a schedule and did not have time to chat.
And now….I have had this reaction of. “Well, good, because, young boy, I have an hour of power yoga to do, and then a personal freakin vision quest to attend to.”
What I hate more than all else, my biggest dread, is the feeling that my presence is an inconvenience, or, is met with pity. I cannot stand the idea that anyone would see me as desperate. It’s like cats and water. I am not into it at all. I would rather take myself away, completely, than put myself in that position of feeling like someone thinks I am desperate for their attention. Just…no.
I am not angry at LO. I am not confused by him. I am going to accept this, and not try to change it. I will do what @bewitched has suggested and put myself into Mysterious Older Woman gear, so I can climb up the real hills. I need to sort out my life, so that I can have MORE days like I had with my friends, and fewer days like I have had pining for LO and wondering if I have any worth at all.
I am grateful this is happening at this pace, but may slide back. But for now, I’m surprised, and feel so lucky.
Your help, and your understanding have been so meaningful to me — I hear you on the small wins. And, I hear you on just being honest with what I can actually handle.
I may try to go NC at this point. I am in awe that you were able to disclose, then go NC. That is Herculean. I can only imagine what you felt as you did so. I love how you say you “blew up” your LE that way. It paints a funny mental picture. I am picturing like a “Bridge over Kwai” scenario! Or, like a Mission Impossible thing where the hero is walking away with this huge explosion behind. haha. It was like that, right?…right?
I’m sure it was awful, or very scary for you. But, I hope those images made you smile.
With care,
CSC
CSC,
„What I hate more than all else, my biggest dread, is the feeling that my presence is an inconvenience, or, is met with pity. I cannot stand the idea that anyone would see me as desperate. It’s like cats and water. I am not into it at all. I would rather take myself away, completely, than put myself in that position of feeling like someone thinks I am desperate for their attention. Just…no.“
I absolutely get it! We don’t want to be seen as desperate cougars, do we?
It’s a powerful remedy, to shy away from any possibility that we might be seen with pity. „Why, the poor old dear seems to get too little attention at home, let’s enjoy her avances a bit and give her some crumbs“ I immediately see red. 😎
oops @Mila I am sorry i missed this one! agreed… poor old dearie?….noooooo. oops i mean meooooowwwww! (horrified-cougar-speak for noooo) 🙂
tbh i didn’t feel bad about myself before this le! actually i felt pretty great! my only hope is that when my lo is, himself, in his middle age, he will look at the women available to him and say ‘my god, csc was a prize among women, i was too young to know”. and i was, and he will know.
i hope you’re doing ok. i hope the week is ending on a better note, i know it’s been an intense one for you.
Hi CSC,
the week hasn’t ended for me yet, the most intense is still to come- wish me luck that I’ll survive with my self-worth intact because it‘s a steep challenge (work-wise).
My XLO hasn’t texted anything, and I believe that he is miffed that I never initiate contact in the last weeks, and is completely ignorant of the fact that he should have reacted on my „bit stressful here, workwise, and also my relative in hospital“text. Sad.
Actually, I would like to ask everyone, how would you deal with that? I definitely won’t call him out on it because I’ve done that one time too much in the past. If he chooses not to react, it’s his right, no? As it is my right to think that that’s pathetic.
I‘d like not to feel resentful anymore, but I feel absolute no desire to text or see him. If he suddenly sends pictures of his upcoming work trip (as I suspect he will), should I answer or just ignore? What I mean is: should I let on that he‘s not in good grace (not to show him but out of sheer aversion to have contact )or should I pretend a bit that all is well, to hold the peace and not run into the possibility of having to explain (but LwL people who followed my story will laugh at the idea of him ever raising such a topic by himself)?
CSC,
I understand your desire to ghost, and I think you have any right to save yourself if it‘s the thing that will help you. But I would just wait it out a bit. You have no contact anyway as long as you or him don’t initiate it.
Maybe just do nothing for a while until the anxiety dies down a bit. See it for now as a sort of holiday from him, maybe, until you feel better and have a clear head to decide.
I definitely wouldn’t send a goodbye message as long as you are not 200% sure you mean it forever.
Maybe you manage a staged retreat? I‘m sure there is a blog post about that somewhere.
@Mila: Didn’t you say you have a get-together coming up with your XLO? I think it would be better to talk with him face-to-face and gently say you were hurt that he didn’t respond. Give him a chance to apologize etc. Are you absolutely sure he got the text? My husband was only just talking last week about how texts don’t always arrive or arrive long after they were sent.
When I was in college, I heard from a third party that I had hurt the feelings of one of my best friends in the same way (in person; we didn’t have cell phones back then). It was my neurodivergence: I didn’t realize I was supposed to say anything. After that, I have been much more diligent about empathy/sympathy. Of course, I was only about 19 years old, and you’d think a middle-aged person would be more socially savvy than that, even neurodivergent….
But I guess the point is not to give him too much leeway but to get the message across that your feelings were hurt by this, so you can be sure that he knows this. If he truly cares about you, he should at least try harder in future.
Hi SL,
Thanks for your sound advice! I‘m very sure he got the text, even the time he read it (WhatsApp provides it). He also posted some stuff on social media, so I guess nothing bad happened to him.
Yes, he‘ll come for dinner next week with his family.
In any other case I would say you are right, I have to tell him.
But first of all, there won’t be alone time to talk without families. And then, I don’t think it will do any good.
The thing is that I already told him two or three times on occasions he hurt me like that (exactly like you proposed) and every time I ended up feeling like a nagging demanding person, even when I didn’t nag or demand at all.
He kind of acknowledged that he didn’t mean it and he feels bad, but never apologized. He then said several times he just cannot change the way he is. The last time he even reacted impatient, as if I would always go on about the same stuff.
I don’t want to have one of these frustrating discussions again, especially since I lost the feeling that the/it/he is worth it.
So this possibility is off the table, except if he would open the subject himself, which he will never do.
But thanks for your insight as a neurodivergent person! I think you can confirm that neurodivergents might be wired a bit differently but still can understand other people’s different needs when explained to them? Believe me, I did a lot of explaining to him.
Thank you so much, SL!
At the very least, if you do decide you can’t take it any more, I think it would be best that he knows *why*. If you just fade away, he won’t know why. I occasionally see somebody has unfriended me on social media, someone I considered a friend now or in the past, not just a slight acquaintance, but they never told me *why*. Or stopped returning my messages or stopped showing up. And never told me why, leaving me wondering to this day what happened.
But SL,
do you remember that on top of mentioned discussions I wrote a lengthy email explaining myself, also explaining that I don’t want such frequent contact if it’s only superficial etc? I won’t explain myself again in this way if he doesn’t ask for it. I feel I explained enough and he doesn’t really want to hear it anyway.
Of course I won’t ghost him! He will still come next week, we even have a work trip together in a few months. But the same way he conducts this friendship his way without talking about it, no matter what I say, can I conduct it how I feel, I guess, without talking about it…
Hmmm. @Mila
Wow, your XLO sounds absolutely confounding. I understand if they are neurodivergent, there are likely some major differences in how they process things…to me the situation amounts to…are you going to change how you process things? are they? Will you both? Or, will you both be able to reach some sort of understanding…
I have no answers (obviously!) but, I would echo @Snow advice to me, today…no hasty decisions. No rushing. And, no looking into the future, and trying to imagine what you should do in a situation that has not happened, yet, if you can help it.
I would say, speaking up about your feelings is not the wrong thing to do, if you are able to have that opportunity, in a couple weeks. But, (and I say this after reviewing my own actions, in other situations in my life)…when you do…see if you can be as to the point as possible, and remember, you may not like the response you get…it may make you further confounded, or…maybe be a little gas-light-y.
To me, the fact that you have brought these things up, reasonably, presumably, in the past, and have been met with the exact same behavior, multiple times, is pretty telling. You seem like a conscientious, thoughtful person, and I’m sure you took great care in trying to illuminate your feelings.
I’m just sorry that this is so frustrating. It makes sense that it is. I suppose “calling him out” is probably not what you’d like to do. But, if you can reframe it to yourself, and take the time to view that approach as “patrolling Mila’s boundaries with the care they deserve” that might be a place to begin with…you might have an interesting, reasonable, yet self-assertive way of approaching him…could be an interesting experiment….
but I know these things are high-intensity – this is not a recommendation…..just something to consider. I know these things are tender and sensitive. x
CSC,
I really hear you about the ‘pity’ part. But if you can mobilise that as you’ve said you can and use it for aversion, that could be a good outcome if you are ready to leave the LE behind.
I can feel you have such a lot going on inside, while on the outside maintaining calm for others’ sake (I will reply later to what Bewitched and you inputted about emotional availability and whether we’re a select bunch with that). Just vent it out here and don’t feel bad. Like Mila said to you, using LwL to vent is so much better than acting it our with our LOs and later regretting our actions. Heck, I have vented my stuff out here enough and saved myself some regrets! Stay with us as long as you need.
To clarify, the ‘blown up’ LE of mine is not the current one I’ve been writing lots about here, it is my one before (back many years but also while I was with my SO, in fact in the very early throes of that). ‘Blow up’ was flippant wording. The planets collided with her moving away and I had a moment (rare for me) of “let’s just not wonder forever, let’s be open about where we both stand”. It was a thoroughly mutual confession of feelings (turned out she was going to say something if I didn’t), a mutual acknowledgement that it was going nowhere as we both had SOs, and that NC (for the time being at least, but turned into permanent) was the only route to go from there. Luckily she stayed on script afterwards. We both walked away knowing we’d inspired attraction in another person that we were attracted to. No hard feelings, hence ‘blown up’ was bad wording. Compared to the curdling of “is there something there or not?” for 18 months with current LO, that one was just so clean and easy. Given the same opportunity with this LO (of physical separation), I probably would disclose in a similar ‘I expect nothing but want you to know’ way. But I wouldn’t want NC with her. The difference is that that previous LE was only 2 or 3 months, where this one is (as everyone here knows 🥱) a friend of a decade.
Thinking about your dilemma of whether just to be honest with LO and then cut and run was what brought my previous one up. I thought it might help you to hear a relative success story of doing that …
Dear L-A-R
Thank you for letting me know you saw my post! 🙂 And, yours here at the very bottom was easy to find. I’m glad. Your posts are some of my favorite. You are introspective, and really honest about your behavior and situation. The kind of…frayed edges that a LE can have. They’re not neat and tidy. They always kind of bleed around the edges…the vagueness, the blur of boundaries, of integrities, the answer-less-ness and ambiguity…you always grapple with that, and I sense how much you want to do the “right” thing, and I also understand that questioning of “right” and what really is that? Is “right” simply…allowing ourselves freedom? Is freedom even possible? I do not know the answers (yet…L-A-R…yet! I am looking, and I am dogged in my pursuits.) haha.
Please pardon the scattershot nature of my reply here – there were lots of interesting things in the posts above, so I’m just trying to follow along…and comment on the parts I found interesting!
Yes, you were VERY brave in that disclosure to your former LO. I cannot imagine the tenderness involved….eeerp…I am glad it wasn’t a River Kwai situation for you. It sounds like it was much more nuanced. 🙂 And, you did at least know there was mutual feeling there, so you had the assurance you had not been delusional. That is huge, and I bet it allowed you to grieve in a more organized way, I suppose it’s as close to “closure” as one can get. Maybe you had to question why, oh why, it didn’t work out…but, you did not have to question whether the whole thing was made up in your mind. With my LO, I personally, am questioning my sanity sometimes. It’s horrible. And, forever I will likely have the question of “Was it or wasn’t it”?
Also yes, I’m glad the topic of the listening-superpower was of interest. I’m trying to examine how I can resist getting into these limerences in the future (assuming I get out of the current one…uh)…and I do think part of that, for me, will involve less open-heart-focusing, as I do, on others. Not trying to help, like I do. Not trying to make them feel “seen”…like I do. Not trying to make them feel special, like I do. I do this with all people. I am always trying to “leave people better than I found them”. To be a light in the world…to help.
But…the reason I do this, is because I am desperate, myself. I am very wounded in my life, and so desperate for people to be kind to me, to see me, to take a moment to help me feel I am special. Long ago, I wished for someone to see me, to care. And nobody did. I told myself, I will care, I will be the person I needed, to others. It’s something I love about myself…but also…it puts me in a vulnerable state, if I allow that person to worm their way in, with…oh…say….intermittent reward???? (Yeah.) And, as I type this I say “Yes, CSC, you do that for others. But…do you do that for yourself? Maybe you have spent so much time trying to do this thing for others, you forgot, or overlooked the original issue, which is that YOU needed this. And you never provided it to yourself, either!”
As for my LE/withdrawal etc. I am still in the mode, today of “I will not be pitied” by LO. I love how you say it could serve as an aversion tool. Hm! Today, I am in a mode of self-disgust and frustration, but trying to combat that by saying “I feel bad enough about myself, I will NOT put myself in the laser beam of someone else’s pity.” NGL I am in a mode of gray sadness, too. I can’t say I’m in “withdrawal” but I’m definitely in some kind of state. We’ll see. Whither, Dopamine????? haha
And…I have to say, in concert with @bewitched
“she stopped being my last thought at night and first in the morning every day.”
OK, that is huge, and Wow. Wow! That is amazing! Hurrah! Congratulations on those moments, L-A-R. I understand you are still grappling with all this, but, to even have a couple moments like that, in a couple days, is great. I know the trajectories of these things is often not a straight shot, more like a wavy, hopefully upward, line. Seriously, though….Good for you. I am happy for you!
Warmly, CSC
Thank you CSC,
I really enjoy your replies and the things they bring up. You are very perceptive and have a lovely way of describing those knotty things that many of us struggle to word!
“Is “right” simply…allowing ourselves freedom? Is freedom even possible? I do not know the answers”
OK, cards on the table. I have lost count of how many times I have asked myself “what if I just surrendered to lim-brain and let it take me where it wants to, and then we see where we are?”. I never have done that, but I have thought about it simply ridiculous amounts. It was like a drum that wouldn’t stop beating. I don’t know the answer, and never will. And that’s frustrating for anyone, right??? But I suspect the answer would have been ‘carnage of some kind’ had I surrendered to it.
“Maybe you had to question why, oh why, it didn’t work out…but, you did not have to question whether the whole thing was made up in your mind”
Both things are true. That combination is somehow easier than questioning both things together, isn’t it?
“And, forever I will likely have the question of “Was it or wasn’t it”?”
Even if you were strong enough to tell him and deal with whatever answer came back?? I guess there is the risk he might still not give a clear response and leave it all up in the air. I think a lot of the other posters here would say “don’t do that” (I am the only person so far – and am male, whether coincidence or not – who has professed open support for your suggestion that you might disclose to him and then cut and run). Perhaps ignore me, as the collective wisdom of the LwL ladies must be better than mine, and I’m biased by my own ‘good’ outcome from doing that once.
To all the “care for self vs others” stuff – despite the obvious differences, I think you and I actually are quite similar people who come at things with similar motives. I don’t know if that helps at all. I do believe you were onto something in your reply to Bewitched about the ‘superpower’. Your determination to get through it and find routes to better self-care serve as inspiration.
“I know the trajectories of these things is often not a straight shot, more like a wavy, hopefully upward, line.”
Brilliantly put again – I really like the visual takes on things. I know that’s the line I have to ride now – wavy but upward.
“Whither, Dopamine????? haha”
Just keep on inhalin’ and exhalin’. This does all get just a little better each day (with the wavy line caveat again) – but it can be hard to feel. Do you feel the intermittent ‘supply’ has stopped for good now?
Sending good karma your way 😊
Struggling with a bit of a resurgence just now. Apologised to the LO and smoothed things over somewhat last week but I am really down. Guess who I want to talk to about that, lol.
The fantasy conversations have started up again albeit in an attenuated form. It’s still more day-dreams than anything else which is good. Accompanied though by stronger feelings of depression than I’ve been getting recently. However this is infinitely preferable to the kind of limerence turbo-anxiety that I had last month.
Sorry for dumping, writing this has helped.
@MrGuinness
I am going thru similar, I don’t know your whole story – very little. Withdrawal from my LO is setting in at the moment. It was ok, but now…oof. Yes, having same “imaginary conversations”..cringe-y feelings, kinda painful daydream flashes…etc. Also of course, intermittent deep sad feelings.
I’m sorry you’re experiencing a resurgence. I wanted to say you are not alone in how you are feeling. I can relate, that is all. But I hope it helps. 🙂
Hello MrG,
Sorry you are struggling. Hope you do feel somewhat happier on smoothing things out with LO. I can imagine that it’s a bit emotional to do that and reflecting on it afterwards. It will be a bumpy road, so be kind to yourself.
If I remember you were going to have an appointment for your condition. I hope you have had that and getting some support accordingly and maybe get some distraction from friends/ hobbies etc to help you
Thanks Imho. I did get an appointment with the GP and she was very supportive, thank goodness. I’m being referred and that can take six to 12 months but the wheels are in motion so that is good.
Yeah, distraction is the key. Not doing too well on that front at present but will probably force myself back into the gym at some point this weekend.
I’m currently experiencing a lot of anger at LO2 since she left the place where he worked together. I didn’t blame her for leaving because I knew she wasn’t happy here and I actually helped her get the new job, which so far appears to be a fantastic situation for her. But since she’s left, she’s been acting very callous and insensitive towards me, like she’s better than me and everyone who still works here. Which is particularly hurtful to me, since I’ve confided in her that I deal with a lot of career insecurities and self-doubt. Basically, I feel like she’s been pouring salt into a particularly painful wound. We had sort of an argument over text several days ago and she hasn’t messaged me since. I’ve been doing everything within my power not to be the one to reach out first, but this has been the longest we have ever gone without some type of communication. I recognize from my previous LE that NC is the best remedy for this, so I should be welcoming it. I’ve journaled my thoughts and of course the temptation is there to send her a lengthy email detailing how hurt I am by her actions.
She told me something once about herself – that she has a way of being mean to guys in relationships after awhile. She pushes them away, maybe as a sort of defense mechanism because she’s either afraid of getting too close or believes she doesn’t deserve someone good. She told me she thought this came from the fact that she cheated on her spouse years ago which led to her divorce and that she still carries the guilt from that, so she sabotages her own relationships. The two of us were never romantically involved so I would say we were never even in a “relationship,” but it just recently occurred to me that this is likely why she’s acting like this with me. She finally flipped on her nasty switch, maybe in an effort to just make a clean break of the friendship. Like she wants to make me angry at her so the friendship will just die. I want so badly to tell her I see what she’s doing. I’d like to pour some salt of my own into her wound, to shine a light on her own insecurities and vulnerabilities. I’d like to tell her it’s bullsh!t to treat a friend like this. She should just be honest about her feelings and not just revert to her old habits of self-sabotage. But I know I can’t control what she does or how she acts. I just want her to know how hurt I am.
@B
That is so unfortunate she is not just withdrawing, but being hurtful and dismissive of the people who continue to work there. I’m sorry, but who does that?? I would imagine she feels doubtful about her decision, and so, she is acting that way as a protective measure. Truly, though? A mature person would not voice those feelings. Especially not to someone STILL IN that situation. Huh.
I too would want to tell her off, to call her out, for bad behavior. But, if she were my LO, like you, I’d be questioning, “Is it really that she needs calling out? Or….is it my limerent urge to just…get some reaction from her?”
I am experiencing similar. I’d love to show up and act all dismissive to my LO, who I know would be confused and hurt if I did that. But, I am more leaning towards just trying to move on with my life. I don’t *need* a reaction from him. I want one, yes. But, what I actually need is to get on with things, make my own life better, and stop spiraling around in the maze of limerence. It’s not easy – I say it like it is. But, I’m really, really trying not to relapse…so I share this with you.
You have every right to be hurt. You do. It’s sh*tty how she’s behaved, whether to you, or if she’s doing this to others! But…I think it’s great you are hesitating to let it draw you in. I cheer you on from the stands. 🙂 I know it hurts, though.
I went through some of that same kind of drama with a particular Lady Friend Colleague of mine recently. My way of calling her out was to go strict LC on her. (NC virtually impossible since we work together)
She noticed my change of script almost immediately and I knew it confused her, but I simply could not continue being walked on or ignored.
Eventually she came around again and we’re better now.
In your situation I guess it depends now on the level of friendship you would like to keep with this person. It sounds like you have been nothing but well-meaning towards her and helping her out. It is also true the some Women do self-sabotage friendships/relationships when a safe, non-toxic person enters the picture. For whatever lame reason. (My Lady Friend is a perfect example of this.) I think this is sad, but all you can do is really let go and see where the chips fall. If you stay NC and she doesn’t come back around, it probably shows where her true interest lies and being your Friend at any level probably wasn’t/isn’t on her radar. She may not care how you feel and I know that is rude, insensitive and extremely hurtful. Yet hurt people, hurt other people.. Trying to confide anything to her right now may not help at all.. I’ve been there. It’s a horrible feeling..
For your sake though, I hope at some point, through NC she might consider or think about you at one point and change direction. At least then you know the friendship matters at some level and what you’re working with. You just need to decide what you will or will not put up with from here on out..
@MJ
Well I managed to hold out and wasn’t the first to break NC. She did. Yesterday. I waited several hours before responding but told her that her recent messages to me were hurtful. She didn’t really apologize but that’s not really like her anyway. She is a very “tough love” type of person. She knows I’m very low right now, mostly due to my job stuff. She doesn’t really know that a lot of it relates to her as well and the LE although I did admit to her that I have anxious attachment issues and that her leaving sort of put me into a tailspin. She went out with her new work friends last night and even sent me a pic, which of course was like throwing petrol on the limerence flames. She tells me all the time about her colleagues and how successful they are how much money they make. She ran into another former co-worker of ours last night and they were talking about me and my job and how I should leave because I’m unhappy and unfulfilled. LO2 is now actively trying to get me to leave and join her at her new job. I am very familiar with that office and it would be a huge step forward for me career-wise. But this is a minefield. I feel like half my problem is career-related and the other half is the LE, and they are somewhat intertwined. I’m consumed with jealousy: jealousy of LO2 for having the balls to improve her own situation and career by leaving a toxic work environment, but also jealous of those around her that get to interact with her every day. I know I shouldn’t even consider going there. Leave a job that I’ve had for 15 years just to be near LO2 again? Obviously that would be going there for the wrong reason. But at the same time, it would be more money than I’ve ever dreamed of and from what it sounds like, more fulfilling work substantively. So there’s bad and good reasons for considering it. In the meantime, I’ve been in talks with another place that looks very promising and would involve me moving away entirely but it’s taking EXTREMELY LONG to materialize. LO2 keeps reminding me of that and trying to get me to go work with her instead.
Anyway, I don’t know if that gives you any clearer of an idea of LO2 and her intentions re: our friendship, but she certainly appears like she wants to continue it. Or is she like a lot of other LOs who just want their little limerent friend to follow them around like a loyal dog, pining for their attention?
I would say since she reached out, she wants to at least keep a modicum of friendship with you. She might even be in it for getting
some validation. Some Women like having “orbiters” like us to turn to if they need us for something. If you enjoy each other’s company and are at least friends, this isn’t a bad thing. May not be entirely what you want right now, but nothing worth having is ever really easy in attaining.
This Woman to me does not seem entirely evil. She just appears to be more confident in her communication style and doesn’t care what others think. Infact she also appears to be looking out for you somewhat, by trying to court you away from your current job to where she works. The job you helped her get. So not only by starting over at a new job, to be with LO (a great fringe benefit), you would also be doing more fulfilling work with way better pay. Sounds like a win-win to me. She’s probably razzing you about her new job, plus talking to other coworkers, because you seem to be down and out about taking a step forward to better yourself. It might be her polite way of perhaps manning-you-up out of your current state of mind and maybe might like having you around at work again to talk to.
Some Women in relationships don’t like guys who are always way too agreeable, too kind and too non-confrontational. You could probably confront her about how hurt you’ve been over the way she’s made you feel, but you already mentioned she’s not the apologizing type. So is doing so really going to help you?? If you don’t try to take control of a situation of your own, she might even be seeing that as a weakness. Which might be a turnoff. You were the one who helped in getting her over there anyway, so perhaps she wants you to see for yourself what a career change could do for you? Thereby jealousy you should consider sidelining?? She’s obviously doing better it sounds like and wants to see you improve yourself. You can continue to be hurt and offended by her actions but she doesn’t seem like a type who is going to care.
Forgive me if I’m not understanding the entirety of what’s really at stake here. I’m just trying to follow with what you posted..
@MJ
No I think you are understanding it perfectly. What you wrote is incredibly insightful and has helped me to more fully understand what’s going on.
1. She does have “orbiters” – lots of guy friends, which I always thought was odd.
2. She is a very confident person who doesn’t care at all what others think.
3. Her guy type is someone similar- confident, strong, assertive. Now I’m seeing I’m quite the opposite which is probably why she never felt a connection between us and made it easy for her to see me just as a friend. Probably a major turn off for her. I may have mistook it for me being unattractive, further fueling my low self esteem. But I think it’s more to do with compatibility.
4. She definitely is trying to help me, just in her own “tough love” way. She’s constant telling me it’s up to me to fix my situation, no one will do it for me. I know she’s right but I don’t think she fully understands what it’s like to be this insecure.
5. And I did confront her. We had an epic row yesterday over text. I lashed out and accused her of not caring about me and wanting to just end the friendship due to her self sabotage issues. I really thought that was the end, given some of the things that were said.
I think what I wanted is what she gave me that night several weeks ago (written about above) – comfort. A hug. Telling me it will be okay. Telling me that I have worth and value. I’m not even getting that from my SO so I turned to LO instead. LO would rather shake me and tell me to pull myself up by the bootstraps. So I see she cares and still values the friendship. I just desperately need someone else’s comfort. Thank you for your insight. I appreciate it more than you know.
Wait
Galway Kinnell
1927 –2014
Wait, for now.
Distrust everything if you have to.
But trust the hours. Haven’t they
carried you everywhere, up to now?
Personal events will become interesting again.
Hair will become interesting.
Pain will become interesting.
Buds that open out of season will become interesting.
Second-hand gloves will become lovely again;
their memories are what give them
the need for other hands. The desolation
of lovers is the same: that enormous emptiness
carved out of such tiny beings as we are
asks to be filled; the need
for the new love is faithfulness to the old.
Wait.
Don’t go too early.
You’re tired. But everyone’s tired.
But no one is tired enough.
Only wait a little and listen:
music of hair,
music of pain,
music of looms weaving our loves again.
Be there to hear it, it will be the only time,
most of all to hear your whole existence,
rehearsed by the sorrows, play itself into total exhaustion.
*****
Be here to hear the scream of pain of a nerve
compressed by the casually sprung muscles
holding one’s whole existence
twisting it into insensitive exhaustion…
Yet, with a hope of painless spring days
dangling on the strings of straight hair….
🐦🔥
(If you can help me take this nerve pain away, I’ll help you get onto your LO’s bed…🙃)
Oh God! Exquisite
CSC,
Do you think if you can beat up Demi Moore (with Ashton), your “painful” LE would melt away? (Did you read her interview with Lulu Garcia-Navarro in NYT?)
oooh @snow
ha – i did read that article. and i actually loved it. i found myself loathing her, then feeling, actually, like she was utterly qualified to speak on the topic of the male gaze. i found myself opening up to her ideas and experience. i haven’t seen the substance yet, though…have you?
ashton, my god. i have to admire his ability to go out on his own, to be with demi and to be proud of it…at that time, i was kind of inspired by both of them. though i was much younger!
i’m so sorry you are having nerve pain today. it must be so difficult. i don’t have that, but i do have migraines, and know how interruptive these things can be, how frustrating. I am sending you healing thoughts, and hope you will feel restored, soon. x
CSC,
I haven’t seen “substance” yet, due to the rumored gory scenes; the topic is too familiar in the West. I’m impressed by her interview in which she honestly reveals her life-time insecurity, under her movie star’s mask. I didn’t follow her story with Ashton (vain in my eyes), but instinctively knew it would not last. My favorite actors are all British or French… George Clooney is not attractive to me, and I cannot stand Tom Cruise….
I sprang my back since 12th so has been living in pain or sleepiness (due to heavy medication) for the past 10 days! I responded your posts during this time to distract from my physical pain, which also helped lessen/dull other mental or emotional pains shown up in this place — they appeared as “idle pains”, while living “here and now” means REAL nerve pain in me….
I’m not advocating to get physical pains to kill mental/emotional ones — that all exist just in our head — https://youtu.be/CQa8sNZJmhg?si=2k8Gjr3ZFl_3_2lw
Hi Everyone,
Well, after quite a week. Withdrawal is here. I’m crying a lot, sobbing. Feeling worthless, ashamed/embarrased, pathetic, alone, exhausted. Heart is pounding at times, hurting at others. It’s a real, physical and mental withdrawal. Full nervous system meltdown, I guess.
This week, I made efforts to stay away from LO, physically. I have no desire to text (LE or not, I’m quite text-averse in general so won’t backslide, there.)
I’ve been falling into deep sleeps in the evening, going to another gym, then going to work, curling up on my couch in my office, sobbing into a blanket whenever need to…multiple times a day. Luckily I work alone. I pull it together, then head home to SO.
Clearly, if this is the point it’s reached, I must go NC.
In some of the limerent advice I’ve been absorbing (not here) the topic of a final, mature “goodbye message” has come up, for going NC. It seems that some councillors believe this is the responsible, adult thing to do.
But I don’t think I can. While my LO probably knows I am quite sweet on him, I doubt he’d understand I’m at the point of such addictive desperation for him. I don’t think I can be adult here….People, I think I need to ghost. I feel I need permission to do so, like, for someone to say, it’s ok CSC, just do what you need to do. Mature or not. Save your life, heart, sanity.
Ghosting will likely officially mark me, in LO’s eyes, as a “damaged, weird, unstable woman he met…Oh, yeah, I remember her, she was soooo weird! I think she caught feelings, she was so awkward, ha!” Considering this causes me great pain and distress.
Coming clean, is way too intense for me to consider, and would also mark me that way, but…somehow more “mature”. ha. Also, causes great distress to consider…
Either way, I will be that weird, awkward woman, totally out of control, who could not control her feelings…I cannot imagine anything less attractive. Oh yes, and old. Being he’s young, he will likely add “older” or “old” to that list. Shudder.
Maybe I just need to get through the next few days and reconsider it. I am just putting this here so I can put it somewhere. Nobody else knows about this situation with me, except you lovely people. I am doing my best. Thank you.
CSC,
My only thought regarding to your post is: to stay with whatever comes up into your head, watch/stare at them, and do NOT rush into any action based on your emotions and thoughts. Tears are healing, cry as much as you wish!
If you have time, maybe try these video clips—
1. https://youtu.be/jU4AS7zCSCI?si=iM9HxMIa8xsxqWOl — When You Think, You’re Actually Listenin
2. https://youtu.be/Cya0ffru0L0?si=MuUWwqUF33QK8hew — Carl Jung’s SECRET to Never Worry Again.
Hope you are feeling better (going to a different GYM is very smart!)
Thank you @Snow, these were so helpful…I listened to both of them!
Yes, my thoughts are running rampant right now, and totally irrational. You nailed it. I am overthinking, ruminating, and mind is not to be trusted. You are right, no rushing!
Yup, I think my new gym will be a good thing. I can still go to the old one, but…will try my best to avoid it…last time I went after a bit of NC, I ended up in this ridiculously bad relapse…I do NOT want to do this again…not to me (and definitely not to the sweet people here, who have put up with me…like you have!)
x csc
CSC,
Some thoughts on ghosting:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/case-study-ghosted-by-lo/
The Blog is from the limerent being the one ghosted but a lot of comments relate to ghosting your LO.
Hi @LE
Thank you for this – wow. What an interesting bunch of conversations. I will admit to being a ghoster. I have ghosted several people, several times. I am pretty awful that way. I do it as a way to survive. But, I’ve also been ghosted. Sometimes, I think it’s more the rule than the exception, for how people behave…especially in situationships…for now, I have much to consider….thank you. 🙂 this blog is an incredible resource, when the archives are taken into account!
CSC,
I’m sorry you’ve hit the low point. But here you are, you’ve called it, it’s in writing. Now, after the grief, the only way is up!
I think here on LwL the collective wisdom is to look out for yourself first. Do what needs to be done to free yourself. You don’t owe him anything, and he might not even expect anything (which might be a hit to the ego, but a blessing). You’ll see – if he contacts you, then he thought your exit was hasty… Or he just likes to keep you on the hook, as we say here 😉.
The good news is, you won’t be the ‘weird, awkward woman’.
I wrote a short-ish text saying that I wouldn’t be in contact anymore, but I could just as well have ghosted. I don’t think my way was ‘more mature’ – I think it was actually less so! I just felt compelled to do it and couldn’t stop myself. I would probably recommend ghosting, in fact! Because there is no such thing as closure.
Don’t knock your age CSC. I’d let Sigourney Weaver led me on a leash in public just to be seen with her. That woman hard boils my eggs. Tbf Susanna Thompson and Helen Miren could too.
ha – @adam ah- that is nice to hear!….but don’t encourage me! my Cougar tendencies are legend. it’s horrific. Frightening to young men, Inspiring to young women…totally entertaining to all…cue the circus music.
As one of Lwls premier crying Men in the forum, allow me to say I feel you in the sadness. It’s an overwhelming, almost crippling feeling, that keeps you from wanting to do anything. I was in that very dark place for a long time. Still do things that take me back to almost wanting to stay in that dark place. But that’s only because I still revere LO to some degree and in my heart I still feel like she is the love I never got to know, but still want to have. I think a lot of limerents feel like this, long after the worst of feelings have passed.
For myself, I spent a lot of time crying in my car and writing sad poetry to LO. The crying was Cathartic and writing out my feelings forced out the emotion on to paper. Reading those words still take me back. In my world there is no SO to consider and my other Lady Friend is just that.. A Friend.
LO may never know what kind of effect she had on me as a person, but the feelings I felt for her were beyond anything I could have ever imagined. I feel often like limerence hit me very hard (like a meteorite, I’ve often referred it as,) and in a somewhat very unfair way. Because I never really knew my LO in any real tangible way. Yet every feeling I have ever had for that Woman has been so crystal clear real to me in my head, that I honestly go about life now almost jinxing myself into thinking it was real, when deep down I know it really wasn’t. That’s what makes my situation here so perplexing, yet so pathetic and sad at the same time. I’m not a crazy person. Or am I?? 🤔
I think Snows advice here is solid. By all means, “DO NOT rush into any action based on your emotions and thoughts. Tears are healing, cry as much as you wish!” This could go on for weeks or months. You’re in an altered state but yet can still be in control. Tell yourself that. Pray about it.. You’ve got this!!
I would also invite you to look at the positives you’ve had with this person in that you even got to have coffee with the guy. (Never forget my Ode to Coffee ☕) The two of you had a nice time and it seems like you’ve at least established a friendship. I suppose I can say the same thing about Lady Friend, but we’ve yet to have coffee together.. Had I ever gotten to have coffee with LO would have been the greatest miracle ever, since Moses parted the Red Sea.. I would have given anything to sit with that Woman. Even if it was just for a sip of water.
Guess it’s all perspective, but you’re not weird. And you don’t have to make it weird. Be gentle with yourself and with LO. If anything, start out by going LC. Doing so might help you not feel so much possible forthcoming gloominess. There are ways to handle this with class and by doing so will show this guy that’s what you’ve got..
Thank you for sharing.
Keep us posted.. 😉
hahaha @MJ – a “Premier Crying Man” that is a serious title to uphold! 🙂 thank you for making me smile.
Thank you for validating my experience here by sharing your own, your meteorite. What a way to describe it. I can completely understand when you put it that way. You’re just going along…your world spinning happily on it’s axis…when…
Yes, it’s been quite a time. But you’re right, I do not have to make it weird. I am going to take that great advice of not rushing, slowing way down, not trusting my mind, and getting back to calm. I will just have to ride this out, and hope some self-worth and clear-headedness returns. Then, I can make a real choice, NC, LC or self-immolation. haha jk
MJ, I wish you a beautiful weekend…and a peaceful one.
Hi CSC,
I’m sorry you have been suffering this week and the come down has really hit you.
I remember when I left my LO once I cried on the flight home so much !
I would suggest what you are doing in terms of distancing is the right thing to do. I don’t see any time pressure to do anything right now, maybe sit with it and allow time to help get you through this grief/ pain.
No need to ghost forever or send a final message which can’t be taken back.
Best not to send a message when in heightened state that you may regret in 2 weeks time when you reflect if the wording wasn’t quite right etc
Also, you are being very vulnerable in such a message. can you trust LO not to brag later about how attractive he is to the ladies that one of the women at the gym was so besotted with him that she had to avoid being around him and she sent a final love message.
So I would say there is no rush, “not today”.
I have used this mantra a lot in my LE !
Btw I’m not perfect l, as I have revealed more to LO than I should have, albeit with high trust levels. Wishing a restful weekend
@imho
You are so right. No rash decisions. No rushing! And I would guess, right now, that the sense of panic and urgency I feel right now are actually not even real. They are likely my brain having some kind of attack. Panic is often that, right?
I think we all are imperfect where our LO’s are concerned. We try our best. We really do. We do what we think is right, at the time, and are only trying to help ourselves survive. We must forgive ourselves. Even if we are cringe-ing while we do it. 🙂 thank you for taking the time to help me, and to re-enforce the no rush, calm down, no quick decisions course of action. You are all very, very right and very wise.
Wishing you a beautiful weekend as well. Thank you for everything.
CSC,
I’m not going to wade in and try and suggest what to do about LO, ghosting etc as I think you should trust what the LwL ladies tell you there. I almost thought about disagreeing with Trifles for a second, but her and I have a reputation to maintain here 🪝. I’m joking – what she and the others say to you is sound.
Just wanted to say thinking of you really. You are not going mad. What you’re experiencing is massive dopamine withdrawal. It will get easier. Just try and do what Snow suggests and sit with and listen to the uncomfortable thoughts – don’t fight them or act on them right now. They too will pass. Stick with us and just rant away if you need to. And don’t feel an ounce of guilt about it.
You may have missed most of these capers but before Christmas we opened a bar here on LwL in the backroom of the coffeehouse – The Amoor’s Inn. We do an excellent range of a smoothies, coffees, ginger/giggle tea, cocktails and stuff a little bit stronger depending on your taste and needs. Feel free to come and have a drink with us. We have had a dodgy welder locked in a barn outside for months to stop him misbehaving with the women and starting fires (Adam is on the door checking he doesn’t step out of line) and a lawyer who just seems to sit in corners taking notes on proceedings. We have even written a bar anthem that you’ll find if you delve into ‘Coffeehouse – Christmas Limerence’ – Trifles might write you a verse if you ask her very nicely. That blog also contained Snow’s memorable Latin music fest on the Inn’s jukebox.
I’m sorry to seem to trivialise if isn’t welcome right now. Occasionally these inane frivolities have really helped me cope, so I thought I’d try.
Hope the weekend has some better things in store for you 🤗
hahah @L-A-R
i have been, admittedly, totally baffled by Amoor’s Inn…I wasn’t sure exactly what it was, or where! But thank you for helping me understand. One day, I will show up there from out in the hinterlands, in my filthy, NC-stained attire…seeking shelter. Perhaps you guys can put me up in the dumpster out back with a nice fluffy pillow, a clean blanket, and a toy to chew on. You will need to make sure I have all my shots before you let me in with the general public. haha
Just kidding. I’m just being self-deprecating. But in all seriousness, I thank God for this forum, at this time in my life. It is truly the worst time, full of doubt and shame. And having others to help me limp along so at some point I may start walking again…it’s everything.
I hope your weekend is lovely and restorative, and full of good things.
Thank you. I have restorative stuff planned and it is much needed (and for once, that’s nothing much to do with limerence).
At the Inn, we can run to a comfy bed and a breakfast service rather than a dumpster.
I once gave the LwL community ten options for the names of the bar. It’ll be somewhere in the LwL archives but I don’t know where. Two of the alternatives were ‘The Inn too Deep’ and ‘The No Contactinn’. Take your pick!
I’m an official cocktail order-taker and improviser of exotic elixirs fitting to patron’s special needs at any given days.
Be warned, the Inn’s spirited offers are not always sweet or soothing…. some are bitter or spicy but stimulating foggy heads 😶🌫️ 😵💫 and sinking hearts 💔 ❤️🩹
There is also icy pond inside to throw tigers or cougars in, as well as the welder and the lawyer…
The Consolation
Anne Brontë
1820 –1849
Though bleak these woods, and damp the ground
With fallen leaves so thickly strown,
And cold the wind that wanders round
With wild and melancholy moan;
There is a friendly roof I know,
Might shield me from the wintry blast;
There is a fire, whose ruddy glow
Will cheer me for my wanderings past.
And so, though still, where’er I go,
Cold stranger-glances meet my eye;
Though, when my spirit sinks in woe,
Unheeded swells the unbidden sigh;
Though solitude, endured too long,
Bids youthful joys too soon decay,
Makes mirth a stranger to my tongue,
And overclouds my noon of day;
When kindly thoughts that would have way,
Flow back discouraged to my breast;
I know there is, though far away,
A home where heart and soul may rest.
Warm hands are there, that, clasped in mine,
The warmer heart will not belie;
While mirth, and truth, and friendship shine
In smiling lip and earnest eye.
The ice that gathers round my heart
May there be thawed; and sweetly, then,
The joys of youth, that now depart,
Will come to cheer my soul again.
Though far I roam, that thought shall be
My hope, my comfort, everywhere;
While such a home remains to me,
My heart shall never know despair!
****
The Hope to build a solid, joyful and expanding home within and to carry it wherever one goes is a shield and a path…. 🐦🔥
Mad Girl’s Love Song
Sylvia Plath
I shut my eyes and all the world drops dead;
I lift my lids and all is born again.
(I think I made you up inside my head.)
The stars go waltzing out in blue and red, And arbitrary blackness gallops in:
I shut my eyes and all the world drops dead.
I dreamed that you bewitched me into bed And sung me moon-struck, kissed me quite insane.
(I think I made you up inside my head.)
God topples from the sky, hell’s fires fade:
Exit seraphim and Satan’s men:
I shut my eyes and all the world drops dead.
I fancied you’d return the way you said, But I grow old and I forget your name.
(I think I made you up inside my head.)
I should have loved a thunderbird instead;
At least when spring comes they roar back again.
I shut my eyes and all the world drops dead.
(I think I made you up inside my head.)
*******
Tell me: am I imaginative or insane to have made up the Phantom inside my head❓
🐦🔥
A song of every limerent❓
That’s a great choice, Snow. Very apt!
I hope your back is feeling better?
x
Thank you, Dame Bewitched —
With my own increased stretching, the back is much better with more mobility, though the pain shifts to different spots of the same nerve….
Standing or sitting long teaching still makes the back more tired, so I hit bed early or whenever and chirp in serene Dawn… 🦉
I am very glad to hear it sounds like you’re feeling somewhat improved, Snow. I am hoping your discomfort decreases even more, very soon. ❤
Thank you, CSC for your good wishes….
Once I tested out which postures or movements have made the nerve hurt, I figured out some stretches to loosen the muscles that were compressing it. (I learned from my previous PT). So I sharply improved my conditions.
How are you doing nowadays? Quieter or still busy? Don’t worry too much, it takes time to train our mind, which can run like a wild horse while untamed….
Hope more peace comes to you!
@Snow
That is great you have some exercises / movements you can do to provide some relief. It’s interesting, about the compression and tension. I have had experiences like that in my own body, with migraines, and over time was able to lower my own incidences…thank goodness.
Re: LO thank you for your care. I think I’m doing a bit better. Not fantastic but no worse! No longer crumpled in a ball, crying into a blanket! I’m exhausted and my brain feels like it’s been fried. But, I’m not slipping further into depression. This weekend was horrible. But yesterday and today I have been much more stable.
After a solid 1 wk NC, My LO texted yesterday, unexpectedly. He sent pictures of two paintings he’s working on…no words, just photos. I haven’t replied though I likely will, eventually, just to be kind…I have a lot of emotions I’m trying to cycle through right now, and a lot to process within, I just can’t allow myself get all worked up again, interacting with him. Or, I’ll end up right back where I was (or worse!) Sigh.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve used your advice…Don’t rush, slow down and calm down. It really helps. There is no actual urgency. Just my limerent mind, wanting things, weaving tales.
I love that Sylvia Plath poem you shared. I love the repetition of it, the rhythm of the birth/dying eyes.
CSC,
I’m not sure if I specified that my low-back “injury” was caused by a wrong movement in 1-2 seconds while trying to pull up a heavy blanket on 2/12. Immediately I knew some muscles in my low back was sprung…. Only after ice/heat treatment , heavy painkiller and the muscle-relaxer medication, I was able to locate the nerve that was compressed — the back of the neck to the left thigh; stretching and strengthening the back and leg muscles (PT work) is helping a great deal. Also, I have to keep my chin/nose slightly up while walking, so as not to pull that sore nerve — I’d be acclaimed being more “snobby/narcissistic” 🤭
I never had any incident like this while only making bed (not workout incorrectly), so feeling extraordinarily stupid! I also never had migraines in my whole life (except the headaches (1-2 days) when trying to stop coffee cold-turkey cut (still one or two expresso in the morning.)
I’m trying to say that this “injury” has nothing to do with my xLE or some anxiety/tension issues! — my LE worsened and then unexpectedly healed my life-time unidentified/untreated cptsd and firmly brought me to Jung’s individuation path…. What else one could have dreamt of benefiting from such an astronomical psychological phenomenon‼️ Again, not only I don’t regret anything in my xLE, but like Bewitched, I’m thankful for it — the best teacher of my life‼️
As I told LaR a month ago, I really felt I was outside the LE bubble when I sense that most of you are still in it in various degrees. I still feel this way with much peace or even joy most of the time but try not to brag about it here…. I still daily practice Stoic (80%) and some Buddhism (50%), listen to other philosophies podcasts, and my own combo meditation (with Vipassana — CMC knows about it) the first and last thing of the day for my whole neural system and energy (re)charging….
“I think I’m doing a bit better. Not fantastic but no worse! No longer crumpled in a ball, crying into a blanket! I’m exhausted and my brain feels like it’s been fried. But, I’m not slipping further into depression.”
Shaped by different cultures and personality traits, limerents take various time length to recover/heal. I just want you to be prepared for the worst — taking a longer and more painful time than you could expect, and be really patient with your relapses and progresses.
“After a solid 1 wk NC, My LO texted yesterday, unexpectedly. He sent pictures of two paintings he’s working on…no words, just photos.”
He will try different methods to reach you if you go NC for 2, 3, 4, or 5 weeks… based on what you’ve told us here about your LO….
“I haven’t replied though I likely will, eventually, just to be kind…”
Why do you NEED to be “kind” to him, but NOT to YOURSELF, while trying a workable NC? What happens if let him think you’re “unkind” or “unavailable”⁉️ Silence is the loudest, wisest answer, if you truly decide/want to go NC with him. Otherwise, neither your SO nor us can stop you; YOU, not any of us, will take all possible consequences.
“I have a lot of emotions I’m trying to cycle through right now, and a lot to process within, I just can’t allow myself get all worked up again, interacting with him. Or, I’ll end up right back where I was (or worse!) Sigh.”
You’ve just insightfully told us what would happen if your NC fails‼️
“Don’t rush, slow down and calm down. It really helps. There is no actual urgency. Just my limerent mind, wanting things, weaving tales.”
You know “LE’s lizard brain” (Dr L’s words) very well, so your executive mind needs to be reactivated and rigorously followed! I strongly recommend that you take some Yoga or meditation classes as soon as possible, if your time is more of your own management — a painter, right?
Please forgive my frankness, I truly wish you more peace with whatever you decide to do with your LE.. 📿
@snow
Oh dear re: your blanket-pulling incident. I had a friend who did similar to her back via a sneeze! It does happen, just one wrong little twist, and if a nerve is in the mix…it can take a long time to comb the whole thing out, and feel totally mended. You seem like a very mindful person, so I am sure you are in the best hands…your own. 🙂
No, I don’t think you are overly frank. TBH I had a really strong reaction to your honesty when you first weighed in, a while back. I thought “pfft! I am not replying to that one!” but then, I thought…”wait a minute…why is her point of view so upsetting to me???” and I went towards, rather than running away. I’m so glad I did, as you have real perspective, and the courage to spotlight actions I’ve taken (or considered) that run counter to, or outright undermine, my own, real healing.
When you say “my LE worsened and then unexpectedly healed my life-time unidentified/untreated cptsd” I find that interesting and feel I can relate, somehow. This LE for me feels…it feels like a real moment in my life – a crossroads or that kind of thing – and I am curious, so curious, about the word you use …”unexpectedly”… I would love to hear more about that, though you probably have written extensively about it here, and may not want to go back into it. :).
Yes, Lim-lizard-brain can be blinding, and it can muffle reason. That’s still definitely my case….I did end up replying to his text. After 24 hours, I thought “well, I’m not rushing anymore, am I?” Ugh. Oops….
And probably if I had seen your endorsement of silence earlier, I would have remembered, that is my preference too — and not reached back out at all. You are correct in that silence speaks with a voice like no other. Duly noted. And, whenever I am silent in this kind of situation, the reward comes…that priceless feeling of true control….true mystery and privacy. oooops.
I didn’t text anything involved. But, yes, I replied to be “nice”. My “be a nice person!” voice said “How would I feel if I showed someone my art and they ignored me?” The “be nice” thing is a huge problem for me, in my life, in general. I tend to put my own needs on the shelf while I work to make others comfortable.
I parsed it and I don’t think I was trying to get his interest or prolong more involved contact…But I know I was trying to “be a nice person”. Still, neither of those things – prolonging, or being nice, serve ME. You are correct. Thank you.
Though I don’t think this was a relapse of epic proportions, I am ashamed to say, it feels like more than it should, and I should have known better, and did myself a major disservice. Sigh!
Soooo, today I’m anxious I “said the wrong thing” in my reply, and I feel pretty icky. I’ll admit it.
Yes, today will be a day of taking it easy, not trying to reinvent myself or prove my worth to the world…. I’ll do a bit of bookkeeping, clean my studio, and do some meditative stuff. I’ll probably have some cookies.
I really appreciate you, Snow. I do feel your way of putting things marked a turning point for me. Getting me out of the spiral and…showing me a mirror. While my progress is not perfect, I do feel different than I did, and that is something…definitely something, after so many months of spiraling with this episode.
I hope today is going well for you, and that you are feeling at peace, as well. It seems like, yes! 🙂
Sorry for interloping on your coffee but I wanted to pick up on something you said here, CSC:
“I parsed it and I don’t think I was trying to get his interest or prolong more involved contact…But I know I was trying to “be a nice person”.”
That can all be true, but so can other things at the same time. In your position I daresay I’d have made the same decision – after all, why would we not want to be ‘nice’? Especially given the background and context about the art. I get it.
But it is perhaps less about the effect you were, or weren’t, trying to achieve *with LO* (I totally believe you on what you say about your non-intentions in replying). It is as much/more about what it does to *you* by your act of responding to or instigating contact …
… I have reread the ‘Death of Hope’ post in the blog archive quite a bit lately. A lot of other LwLers mention it as a key one. Limerence can only die when we *really* starve hope. I don’t mean just in an intellectual sense, I mean in a ‘visceral’ sense – when we really really know it won’t happen and we start to not even want it to.
It is possible that the LO can sometimes starve a lot of the hope for you (although other LOs don’t want to). But as most or all of the hope started in the limerent’s head, they ultimately have to complete the starvation process. The presence of LO in our orbit can make this very very hard. We don’t always have the luxury of a Bridge over the River Kwai moment.
CSC, from what you have told us, I am not sure you are quite ready yet to starve off hope in this LE, or even if that’s the right thing for you at this point. And I am not judging you if that’s the case – I’d be a hypocrite to do so. But probably you’ll have to get to that starvation point in the end. You have been through limerence more times than me and will understand – better than any guess I can make – how the end parts of the process play out for you.
I just wanted to flag this point for now – every contact decision you make from now on can be a conscious one – will you feed hope or will you starve it?
Relapses and backsliding are normal – don’t beat yourself up, just reset. This will all happen at the pace that’s right for you – but each decision you make contributes somehow.
I am rooting for you however linear or twisty the path turns out to be.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-death-of-hope/
@CSC,
I’m 100% positive that you would not wish me to be 100% frank….
“This LE for me feels…it feels like a real moment in my life – a crossroads or that kind of thing –“
If you really feel so, then check these blogs out, study them word by word, answer to YOURSELF the questions raised in the articles —
1. https://livingwithlimerence.com/guest-post-limerence-as-a-force-for-revolution/
2. https://livingwithlimerence.com/how-limerence-can-lead-to-renewal/
3. https://livingwithlimerence.com/self-awareness-and-purposeful-living/
4. https://livingwithlimerence.com/beating-limerence-in-2020/
5. https://livingwithlimerence.com/courage-and-limerence/
“and I am curious, so curious, about the word you use …”unexpectedly”… I would love to hear more about that”
It says ALL here —
https://livingwithlimerence.com/guest-post-limerence-as-a-force-for-revolution/#comment-76198
Good lucks for your individuation journey!