Earlier in the year, I wrote about the elements of purposeful living, with the definite intention of expanding on the themes is a series of in-depth posts. Life got in the way, but now it’s time to pick things up again. The goal for this series is to lay out why purposeful living is a route to more fulfilment, as well as effective emotional armour against limerence.
I’ve already talked about the importance of honesty. Now it’s time to ruminate on the next element, self-awareness.
What makes us who we are?
People are complicated. We’re all different, but we all come from the same place – two cells combined from our parents, delivering a deck-shuffling of the genes that determine our developmental fate. That biological reality provides the “hardware” that we’re working with, but understanding the “software” that’s running in our heads is a bit trickier.
The old philosophical debate about how our temperaments develop was framed as nature versus nurture. The extreme positions were that we are slaves to our heredity, or we are blank slates to be written on by the world. In reality, of course, it’s a bit of both, and somewhere in between.
We definitely inherit some behaviours that are hard wired. The most obvious examples are reflexes – the startle reflex, the diving reflex and so on – but it’s also clear that we also inherit some of the big five personality traits from our parents.
This makes sense, if you think about it from a neuroscience perspective. There are certain in-built neural systems (for reward, fear, motivation, arousal, anxiety, etc.) that we all share, but the sensitivity of these systems to different stimuli varies between people.
Let’s say you have a mother who is highly sensitive. Her amygdala will powerfully activate in response to perceived danger, and she will panic. Let’s also say she has always been that way since she was a child – much more prone to cry, fearful of strangers, reluctant to engage in rough play. A neuroscientist would explain this as her having sensitive arousal and fear circuits, a personality psychologist would explain it as her being high in the “neuroticism” personality trait.
As her child, it is likely you would inherit a more sensitive than average fear response at an anatomical and physiological level AND you would grow up in a household where threats are given a high degree of attention AND you would probably avoid exposing yourself to adventurous experiences that might lessen fearfulness, because they make you feel bad.
We inherit a default temperament. Our environment can shift those inbuilt tendencies as we learn from experience – and so we are not fated from birth to always behave a certain way – but without self-awareness, we typically interact with our environment in a biased way that is likely to reinforce rather than weaken our inherent traits.
Making sense of ourselves
Most people do not analyse the origin of their personalities and temperaments unless life forces them to. It’s obviously easier and simpler to just cruise along in an uncritical way, if life is basically working out fine.
Encountering a life-quake – limerence, bereavement, divorce, estrangement – forces us to confront our assumptions, our instincts and ourselves.
Who am I, really? Why do I feel tired and hopeless all the time? Why can’t I stop doing things that are bad for me? When did I stop feeling happy? Why am I so angry?
These sorts of questions are the entry point into self-awareness, but unfortunately they often prompt a counterproductive response – story telling.
We typically make sense of the world by constructing a narrative that feels compelling. We draw from subconscious beliefs, and ruminate on our problems and worries until we find an explanation that feels satisfying. Often, this initial process is followed by rationalisation, to construct an intellectual scaffold around the instinctive response and justify our behaviour. We might even add a dash of selective editing of memory, to help align the facts to the narrative.
Just as with limerent rumination, story-telling as sense-making can end up making a bad situation worse. Your creative imagination carries you further away from the reality of who you are, by explaining your behaviour through the filter of ego-protection.
There are limits to introspection as a pathway to self-awareness. It has to be grounded in facts.
Start from the facts
If you want to know who you really are, it’s important to let go of your ego. I don’t mean self-abasement, I mean turning off both the hypercritical and the hyperprotective voices in your subconscious, and looking at yourself with dispassionate acceptance. Or – in a phrase I’m starting to like more and more – with unsentimental compassion.
You should forgive yourself for your shortcomings, but also look at them unflinchingly. A good starting point is to review critical events in life from the perspective of “what happened?” and not “why did it happen?”
Start from scratch. Just catalogue information.
To take a personal example – I have always been reluctant to attend social events. Temperamentally, I am a happy introvert. When I was younger, and loath to admit to weakness, I convinced myself that parties were for losers, that extraverts were jerks and fakes, and that I was a noble, lone wolf, avoiding the herd. A sensitive, tortured soul.
If I’d had an unsentimentally compassionate mentor at that point in life they might have asked me some challenging questions:
- How many parties have you actually attended?
- What happened at the last one you went to?
- What do you feel when you are invited to a party?
- How much experience have you had interacting with extraverts?
- How do you know what they are feeling?
There’s no “why” element to those questions. There’s no editorialising or mind-reading or justification needed. Just collect the facts and then make the fairest interpretation that you can.
- I have not attended many parties.
- At the last one I felt isolated, nervous, and embarrassed.
- I feel sick at the prospect of going to another one.
- I have hardly any extravert friends.
- I don’t really know what’s going on in their heads.
Now, a hostile judge could flip the narrative and go on the attack: I was not a lone wolf, I was a coward. I was too inept to make friends, too socially awkward to be appealing, and too pathetic to admit it to myself.
To really get to self-awareness, you have to ignore both the self-justifying and self-abasing voices, and find the honest voice that cares for you. Yes, I was being a coward, but that is OK because I could learn to be braver. Combining dispassionate questions with compassionate honesty gets you closer to the truth.
I was inexperienced, sensitive to social anxiety, happier alone, and reluctant to make an effort because it would involve embarrassment.
OK, good. Now what?
Finding balance
Now comes the real challenge. Without giving in to the comforting lies that protect your ego, or the destructive voice of despair that urges you to give up, you have to figure out what you are realistically capable of. You have to make some important decisions about the kind of person you currently are, and the kind of person you want to become.
For most people that means coming to terms with their true temperament and accepting it as their baseline nature. A place of security. The next stage is building on top of that to decide when to work within your limitations, and when to make a deliberate choice to push beyond them.
I will always be an introvert, but I also realised that it was holding me back from some of the things I wanted to achieve in life (make more friends, find a romantic partner, become more confident). So, despite the intrinsic discomfort, I worked on improving my social skills. I deliberately exposed myself to more social events, built up a tolerance for embarrassment, and accepted the discomfort as an inescapable part of the process.
There were ups and downs, but the crucial element for success was unflinching honesty about what was happening. Too much socialisation wore me down, and that was OK. It made sense based on who I was and what my limits were.
Self-awareness, at its heart, is the ability to recognise when subconscious desires and fears are generating powerful urges, but to balance them against your intellectual understanding of your temperament. You can then decide more consciously whether to work with your intrinsic drives, or to accept discomfort for the sake of greater goals.
Similarly, awareness of your intrinsic nature helps you discriminate between fear that keeps you safe, and fear that keeps you trapped.
Developing this ability to assess reality in a neutral way, accept yourself with unsentimental compassion, and then make a purposeful, conscious choice of when to seek comfort and when to seek growth, is the heart of self-awareness.
That approach got me through my youthful fears and helped me transcend the false narratives that had limited me before. It helped me gain confidence, tolerate embarrassment, and build a life and family.
And then limerence came along, and kicked my overconfidence right in the nuts.
Thanks for the post! After reading your blog since two months ago, I feel I have more control over my life. Limerence is an opportunity for me to reflect who I really am and who I want to be. A purposeful life is indeed the solution.
Self awareness is my main discovery over the last 16 months of my LE and has helped me manage my emotions through all this. Like most of us who did not know what limerence was before it grabbed hold of us, I was confused, disoriented, and an emotional wreck in the first few months of my LE. Lucky for me I stumbled upon LwL which sent me down a path of self evaluation. I have learned a lot about what makes me tick, what my wants and needs are in relationships, what my negative behaviors are, what my past traumas and disappointments are, what my inner feelings and desires are for my SO, and why I am so addicted to LO. I feel I have learned about as much academic knowledge as I can about limerence as well as knowledge of my own waves of emotion. It has been good discovery, this LE, and yet such an immense struggle in my life. And I’m not out of it yet, but each time a wave of emotion comes along, I am able to stop, rationally evaluate it, and move forward accordingly. That is huge progress.
Since I cannot be NC with my LO, everyday I have to be on guard and everyday is like a mini little LE period in itself. But I have learned to understand my triggers and understand how to avoid bad situations with LO. And sometimes I fail, but the failures are now less intense. In fact I had a failure just last night, but today I evaluated my behavior, forgave myself, and am ready to move on with the new day.
And I fully agree that self awareness and purposeful living is the pathway to crawling out of an intense LE when your emotional self and addiction won’t let you let go of LO but your rational self wants to move on.
Song of the Blog: “I Can See Clearly Now” – Johnny Nash (1971)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqmUv2f1-Wg
I’d just finished my sophomore year in HS when this came out.
“And then limerence came along, and kicked my overconfidence right in the nuts.”
Clip of the Day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5gNdbKS5wM
Ouch! That was quite a clip.
“Let’s say you have a mother who is highly sensitive. Her amygdala will powerfully activate in response to perceived danger, and she will panic. Let’s also say she has always been that way since she was a child – much more prone to cry, fearful of strangers, reluctant to engage in rough play. A neuroscientist would explain this as her having sensitive arousal and fear circuits, a personality psychologist would explain it as her being high in the “neuroticism” personality trait.”
Oh dear! I hope none of my recent comments were inspiration for this blog post… (Is my megalomania showing? My covert narcissism possibly?) 😉
On a more serious note, yes, very good article. Muchly enjoyed reading…
My mother definitely had one of those amygdalae that are on high-alert all the time – at least while I was young. She panicked easily. She seemed stressed out a lot. She paced the house “praying in tongues”, which is a very Pentecostal Christian thing to do. She elevated screaming into an artform. She was super-sensitive to largely non-existent dangers. You could call her “over-protective”. 😉
When I approach things from the perspective of a man who’s never fathered children and who’s never partnered a woman struggling to birth and raise children, it’s easy to paint women like my mother as neurotic nightmares – neurotic nightmares who set out on purpose to make family life as miserable as possible. However, since reading this article, I appreciate that there’s another, much kinder, much more generous explanation for my mother’s behaviour.
In short, my mother’s behaviour can be explained in terms of evolutionary biology simply as good mothering. For example, if my mother was a woman sleeping rough with her young, and bears and lions were wandering past in the middle of the night, then I’m sure my mother’s super-sensitivity to possible danger and inability to relax for more than a few minutes would make her the best mother in the world. Her neuroticism would be an asset, in other words. Her neuroticism would position her perfectly to react quickly to all sorts of exigencies.
I feel it would be wrong for me to judge my mother for high levels of neuroticism, even if she does have high levels of neuroticism, because high levels of neuroticism would make her an excellent mother to young offspring in a whole host of environments where there was/is genuine threat. I feel that “neuroticism” is not a handicap but a gift that Nature gave my mother in order to help her embody Eve/Archetypal Mother. Was she a good mother? Yes. Was she easy to live with? No. 😁
Motherhood hasn’t been the easiest profession for much of human history, and it probably still isn’t. A big part of what makes my mother my mother is that my mother – unlike me, and unlike my father or men in general – inherited all the evolutionary machinery necessary to cope with the potentially unpredictable reality of human motherhood. My mother is complex precisely because of her awesome procreative powers, procreative powers which she shares in common with all human women – procreative powers which remain forever beyond the experience of men. (I am paraphrasing Camille Paglia very loosely here).
I guess the tragedy of family life for my family of origin is that my mother couldn’t calm her amygdala even when there was no or little threat in the environment. My mother has apparently had as much trouble as I have controlling anxiety.
Countless times throughout my childhood my mother sought out my help to bring her anxiety levels down. I wasn’t really able to help my mother – I was frightened of my mother’s emotional intensity. However, I do feel it is the job of emotionally mature adult men e.g. husbands, male relatives, to help a woman regulate her anxiety if she is really struggling and asks for external support. Men, unfortunately, as a class of human beings, are often terrified of any strong negative emotion expressed by a woman e.g. anxiety, anger, aggression, etc. I think men feel impotence and fear impotence in the face of female emotionality.
Personally, I wanted a mother who was calm all the time and gave out cuddles and cookies and crooned lullabies. However, my mother was so busy majoring in threat detection and protection, she ended up minoring in the hugging/baking/singing departments. Not a criticism. Just an observation. She had a very chaotic childhood herself, and was neglected by both parents.
As an adult man, I sit with my mother and I see her to some extent through the eyes of a stranger. I see my mother for what she is when she’s not stressed out. And when my mother isn’t stressed out, she’s … vibrant, charismatic, glamorous, funny, a little bit bitchy maybe, enjoys being teased, charming, imaginative, a natural-born actress.
My older sister (the INFJ) says my mother’s energy is like a waterfall. You just have to sit there and bathe in that waterfall and let the water splash everywhere, and it can be beautiful. You have to take my mother’s personality in … as an immersive experience. But if you resist my mother’s energy, or fight against her energy, or tell her to be someone she’s not, you can’t enjoy her energy. You have to go with the flow with my mother and when you do that, you may discover that she’s an amazing and very fun person.
My older sister also tells me that my mother adores me and that I’ve always been her special favourite. (This is despite the fact she wouldn’t let me play with male-gendered dolls, and screamed at me for trying on her opaque nail polish). 😆
Perhaps the great irony of my life is that my biggest protector scared me and my most enthusiastic fan repulsed me. My mother and I are good now. But I’ve benefited from having some time away from her too. She has a very big personality. She’s a suburban prima donna. I haven’t always understood her. But I know why my dad fell in love with her and christened her “his Aphrodite”. 😉
Gosh, I wish I knew my mother (she gave me up at birth)
My father is very, calm, cool and collected (on the outside anyway)
But, I most definitely have an anxious attachment style
I have not been here for a while, I was doing so very well with my Limerent recovery.
I reconnected with some old friends recently, all was fine and then before I knew what was happening BAM it happened again!
Transference at it’s finest..so I now have LO #2
I’m devastated
Like, this old friend is just looking for a hook up, nothing else
And here I am again, hanging on every word he says and texts
Some words of encouragement from you guy’s would mean a lot
I will have to go through this again
Thanks, Anna
Oh Anna, that sounds hard. Welcome back.
I highly recommend that you do something else when you start thinking about your new LO. Avoid LO daydreams as much as possible. I’m doing much better in my current LE (I actually think it’s over) than I did in my past LE. I think it’s better because I distract myself from indulging in LO daydreams.
Best wishes!
Excellent blog, Dr L;
Mindfulness and self awareness, two very fundamental pillars.
Thinking back, the first time I dwelved into self awareness was when I was a teen, always trying out who I was and how to be. Eventually, life fell into place, I have a great career , a wonderful husband and lovely sons. No need to self reflect, right?
Then LE happened last year and hit me like a freight train. I spent the first months thinking of LO, who he is, a dreamy life together, ect. But it was wrong, I have a lovely SO.
So why did this happen? These questions drove me to read up on limerence , everywhere I could find information. I came across LwL, finding people in the same predicament. Now, the focus has shifted from LO to myself, what was/is going on in myself to cause this limerence, why this LO? The last months had been a journey of introspection, analyzing my upbringing, where I fit in on attachment theories ect.
So to me, what started as a crazy love addiction has turned into a psychology class of myself! Don’t get me wrong, when I hear LO’s name or even see him, I still get that “ pang” in my stomach, I still catch myself in reverie.
But….it can’t be.
This blog is a great tool for self awareness. At the end, we may all come out stronger! 😉
Hi everyone! I just joined this excellent forum the other day. I had never heard of this type of feeling or longing until just the other day, but I am still experiencing it.
I’ll skip over the gory details to get to a direct reply to this article. I disagree with it somewhat, or at least offer another perspective.
I consider myself o be a very self-aware and curious person, and have invested a lot of time in personal and spiritual pursuits across a wide gamut of modalities. I don’t have a fulfilling or joyful (20+ year) marriage, and we stayed together to raise a child (she is awesome a a total joy in my life). What I found unique to my experience is that my spouse has very little interest or curiosity in much of anything, or at least not anything I’ve ever been interested in and has on many occasions ridiculed my interests in “useless”, or “impractical” things outside of paying bills and keeping our house clean. So I believe it’s not entirely accurate to say that a sort of lack of awareness, curiosity, or purpose, can make one susceptible to limerence. I believe people are often caught in the web of existence and survival and actively suppress their basic creativity and human expression. Just a thought.
“So I believe it’s not entirely accurate to say that a sort of lack of awareness, curiosity, or purpose, can make one susceptible to limerence”
Just because the statement is not true in your specific case does not make it untrue for other cases and I think it’s an overall good premise. “Susceptible” does not imply certainty. It fits my LE situation and others here as well.
It seems to me you have been in a marriage that lacks excitement and depth. A wife who ridicules your interests and doesn’t seem fulfilled either. Like you have just been putting up with that. Yet you have a Daughter that brings you happiness. So true, when you say you are self-aware and curious as a person.
Because you know you are curious, is that why you believe you are limerent for another person? Not saying it’s wrong or can’t happen.
Like many others here, I did fall into a limerence trap by accident, you could say. I really wasn’t aware of how deep it could go or the feelings that would be as a result. It happened because I was at a low point in life and because of how my LO reacted to my cues.
I think what this proves is that limerence can happen when we least expect it. It probably doesn’t matter if we plan for it or not.
“What I found unique to my experience is that my spouse has very little interest or curiosity in much of anything, or at least not anything I’ve ever been interested in and has on many occasions ridiculed my interests in “useless”, or “impractical” things outside of paying bills and keeping our house clean. So I believe it’s not entirely accurate to say that a sort of lack of awareness, curiosity, or purpose, can make one susceptible to limerence. I believe people are often caught in the web of existence and survival and actively suppress their basic creativity and human expression. Just a thought.”
@AvantGardener.
Interesting thoughts.
I am single. However, I sometimes fantasise about having an SO who’s only interested in paying bills and keeping the house clean, or working long hours to provide a good living. E.g. If I had a partner who excelled at practical/financial stuff, that would free me up to focus exclusively on creative stuff! Haha!
I think there are great benefits to having a partner who is “dull”, or mainly concerned with practical matters. I hate dealing with practical matters…
However, I agree with you, that limerence-prone individuals probably have a playful side to their personalities that yearns to break free. I think limerents do have a childlike side to their personalities, and limerents shouldn’t be ashamed of this childlike side of themselves. Limerents should befriend the childlike aspect of themselves, while also trying to fulfil any adult responsibilities they have.
I wonder if there is a link between high dopamine and creativity? I wonder if limerents could be diagnosed with “dopamine overproduction disorder”? Do our brains simply produce too much dopamine compared to other people? If one’s spouse lacks curiosity, etc, all that might mean is that they don’t get a big dopamine boost from exploring new things. Dopamine probably drives curiosity in adults as well as in children. Dopamine production might decease with age for most of the human population. 🤔
The thing I don’t like about limerence is that it does seem to come packaged with a lot of fear (for some but not all informants). E.g. incapacitating shyness, extreme fear of rejection, being worried about the “judgement” of others, etc. I realise now that I could have been great friends with all the people I’ve liked in life had I not been so fearful of negative evaluation. However, fear seems to increase desire – at least for me. Where there is little desire, there is also little fear. I don’t think many humans want to give up desire altogether, because it feels good. 😉
I am sort of coming out of limerence now, at the ripe old age of 40, after a lifetime in the limerence fog, and I am amused to discover what traits I still retain post-limerence. E.g. what character traits are “truly me” and what character traits are merely symptoms of limerence.
I think Dr. L is right in previous things he’s stated – we all have a “real self” that doesn’t change despite limerence. For example, I still have many autistic qualities. I haven’t stopped being autistic. However, post-limerence, I no longer have low self-esteem regarding my autistic qualities. Limerence made me hate the things about myself that seemed “too different” or “overly quirky”. I tried to “standardise” my whole personality/character, e.g. act like a neurotypical, in order to curry favour with my LO/LOs. Failed spectacularly. Never mind! 😜
Hey y’all. Have not posted for a while now, have been going through the forums though, lots of useful advice thanks to all. Thought I would share my thoughts/experience now. Have been in an LE for well over a year now. Both are committed, so natural barriers exist. Not much has happened, some flirting and eye contact both ways. The symptoms – intrusive thoughts, feeling low seem to have gotten better, partly due to NC/LC (there are not many opportunities for contact). There are moments of feeling low that appear all of a sudden, but generally go away after a while. What a roller coaster! Going forward, would really welcome advise on how to manage the recovery process, and especially how to navigate/regulate my emotions when there is contact. Thanks for listening and all the best to all members.
Circling back to this blog post because it’s so relevant to me right now. Self awareness is such a huge factor for me in managing my LE. I have become hyper aware of every little thing that can trigger me with LO and laser focused on avoiding it. If I could go NC I would, I have hit a point of exhaustion with LO that I truly wish her out of my life. But that is not the reality of my situation so LC and “trigger management” is my method of self care and it all starts with self awareness.
My LE has reached a point where just about any personal initiation, engagement, or interaction with LO, no matter how superficial or trivial, triggers a negative reaction in me. Depending on the depth of those interactions my low mood swing can last for as little as maybe a few hours to a couple days. LO really has become a pure source of pain over pleasure. She is poison to me.
I also noticed that as I engage LO, and my low sets in, my dominant emotion becomes anger, resentment and disappointment. It’s an emotion I do not like and find it my least desirable emotion to feel. It makes me irritable. On the other hand, if I disengage from LO, avoid her personally (I can’t avoid her professionally), and keep her distant, then my emotions turn more to a mild grief over our lack of relationship. Mild grief is a much better emotion to operate daily life under. The only tricky part is after a week or so the grief makes me want to engage her because I get sympathetic feelings towards her, I engage, and thus the pendulum swings. Still working on that.
My strategy the last couple months has been to disengage from LO, and keep all our interactions to work needs only. I keep them brief and I try to keep the eye contact to a minimum. But at the same time I stay friendly. There have been a few awkward moments where I felt like she notices my avoidance but nothing that has been a problem in our working relationship.
I like this strategy because I feel it gives me some control back in dictating the terms of our relationship, which in reality is really none at all. As George Costanza would say, you need hand.
Without knowing current situations of each limerent here and your LO — the (un)availability, I’d offer a glimpse of my personal psychology as an available, zero-glimmer LO (the past + present).
1. They don’t take a genuine curiosity and invest sufficient time, energy to get to know me as a person, I am NOT a vase.
2. Sharing insufficient common interests is not a fundamental barrier; as an evolving human being, I can be inspired to learn anything new and self-improve, so can they.
3. They are eager to please, flatter, or support. I’m quite capable and independent; I do not need a human PET. I want to admire something in my beloved.
4. They try to change my feelings for them either with flash words or foggy hints, making me feeling touched, empathic, but also amused.
5. I am happy to truly befriend them, but they always expect/want more. What’s fun for them if my Eros mind is absent while being with them?
6. I’ve done all I could treating them as fun, mutually beneficial friends, what now? Having other pursuits in my short life, I can’t invest all my time and energy in them. Can’t they understand?
7. Their persistent pining is getting uncomfortable to me now, I have to keep a healthy distance.
8. Hmm, I detect a subtle resentment…. I believe their affection is genuine, but I’m unable to taking it with my heart or faithfully treasure it as they wish. I’m afraid that I’ll have an EA or PA soon or later.
9. I do care for them as a unique human being and good friend, but unable in a romantic or an erotic way; is it my intentional fault?
10. I’m not cruel or cold-hearted, if I have to reject them with a straightforward, fixed answer. It’s beneficial to both sides in a long run!
11. It is their own unreasonable expectations from this “friendship” and unreciprocated interactions WITH me that hurt them, not ME.
12. I feel so melancholy seeing their sadness 😨 I never want to break anyone’s heart, I know how painful it is…. *sigh*
*********
This is how I have felt and thought, with my 65% empathic traits, 80% cPTSD, 20% HSP. Imagine how a LO with 35% narc traits would internalize?
*********
Imaging these thoughts in my current LO’s head helps calm me down, with the Phantom of LO quietly hanging on the back burner.
On today’s New York Times — The World’s Happiness Man
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/08/13/magazine/matthieu-ricard-interview.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
“Happiness is more like your baseline. It’s where you come to after the ups and downs, the joy and sorrows. “
“…but sadness is not against a deep sense of eudaemonia,
of fulfillment, because sadness goes with compassion, sadness goes with determination to remedy the cause. “
“8. Hmm, I detect a subtle resentment…. I believe their affection is genuine, but I’m unable to taking it with my heart or faithfully treasure it as they wish. I’m afraid that I’ll have an EA or PA soon or later.”
@Snowphoenix.
I’m loving point #8 – subtle resentment. 😆
Most of those “limerents” (LM) were (are) long-term classmates/friends, so very respectful and always indirect about their true feelings or subtle complaints.… I never had a heart to say “No”, but an unmistakable answer was given subtly.
LMs from work or dating apps got a clearer “No’ much sooner… and I would fall into a melancholy for some of them at least for 2 weeks, or longer… Imagination is double-bladed sword.
@Snowphoenix.
I read your list of 12 points as what it feels like to be an LO and maybe be on the receiving end of unwanted admiration from close friends, etc.
When you compiled your list, were you writing from the perspective of a slightly frustrated LO? Did I interpret your contribution here correctly?
@Sammy
You’re sensing correctly.
#1 on the list was my major complaint and even resentment/offense when I was in my inner child’s mood.
Due to my sPTSD, I had always unconsciously searched for a surrogate parent (SP) in LOs & LMs. As a single, lonely child, making good, solid friends was my top priority.
When trusted friends-LMs attempted to get close to me, I naturally expected/wanted them to listen attentively to my deep needs, thoughts, feelings, vulnerabilities, etc. However, they tended to listen to and respond superficially (their mind, more than often, seemed to be anxious about other stuff and wandered elsewhere). So their “admiration” or complements were off points.
# 2 I am genuinely curious to learn about each individual’s inside, LM or not. But LMs were often too nervous or vulnerable to bravely tell and show it, as if I were a judge or critic, even after I disclosed mine first. Then we eventually ended up being loyal friends, not close. With acquaintances or dates, the superficial interactions (without my glimmer) ended much sooner.
Since there are more suffering, frustrated limerents (me included) than LOs here, I hoped my list could show what a LO might endure. Both sides are complex, evolving human beings, never just “Objects”; both sides can be genuinely admired, appreciated and loved, if authentically known.
@Snowphoenix.
I think that being a limerent experiencing limerence can come with certain challenges and being an LO on the receiving end of limerence can come with certain challenges. And, of course, one can be a limerent and an LO at the same time!!
“When trusted friends-LMs attempted to get close to me, I naturally expected/wanted them to listen attentively to my deep needs, thoughts, feelings, vulnerabilities, etc. However, they tended to listen to and respond superficially (their mind, more than often, seemed to be anxious about other stuff and wandered elsewhere). So their “admiration” or complements were off points.”
Yes, listening is a big issue when it comes to limerence-inspired attachments. I think at times I’ve been very sensitive to people I’ve liked and also very insensitive to people I’ve liked. And sometimes I was both sensitive and insensitive in the same “relationship”, which was very confusing for the other person. 😆
Limerence can make one a very selfish listener. What I mean by this is that when listening to a LO, I often found myself listening out for stuff that would reflect positively on me. I wasn’t that concerned about my LO’s problems, even if they did have real problems, and were honest enough to share those problems with me. So I practised highly selective listening at times, because I was so stuck on securing reciprocation and not relating to the LO as a real friend.
I was too quick to anger many times. Not that I necessarily showed my anger. I was too involved with my own ego. Also, I was too quick to react with despair when I wasn’t getting enough positive feedback from LO, yet they still wanted to be in my life. As in: “How dare you want to be in my life and not worship the ground I walk on. What do you think this is? A relationship between equals?!” 🙄
In some ways, limerence can be sort of horrible. Horrible in the sense that the limerent is pushing an agenda, and that agenda might be something as silly as “always wowing the socks off LO” or “always looking amazing”. It’s almost like limerents get so needy they can’t turn off their own neediness around their LOs. They can’t remember that LOs sometimes have needs of their own.
Point number 12 on your list is very moving. I’ve never thought of LOs being sad because they saw the limerent sad, or sad due to inability to meet some need implicitly expressed by the limerent. To not be able to make someone else’s romantic dreams come true … I guess that could induce weird feelings of irrational guilt in some people at times? But, then again, nobody is actually “owed” romantic love… If it does occur, it’s just a happy accident. 😉
I think I felt “subtle resentment” toward LOs when I thought they were playing games with me, blowing hot and cold, being secretive and withholding. I resented them for daring to lead their own lives without factoring me into the decision-making process.
In most of these situations, I had misinterpreted friendly behaviour as romantic interest, and no genuine secrecy/withholding was taking place. Or I had been confused by the shy/awkward behaviour of a heterolimerent guy, and thought he was cruelly sending me mixed signals when in actual fact his bashfulness at work, say, probably related to some girl he fancied, some girl who only dropped in once or twice a week. 😉
The hard thing, though, is limerents can’t seem to turn off that extreme emotional pain (in chest) when rejection appears imminent. Limerents who have experienced a lot of pain (real and/or perceived rejection) then become obsessed with avoiding pain. The LO, in many cases, probably doesn’t want to inflict emotional pain on the limerent, and is not sure why their “friend” or colleague is acting so quiet/withdrawn all of a sudden. Limerence seems to introduce all this crazy tension into relationships that doesn’t need to be there. 🤔
“# 2 I am genuinely curious to learn about each individual’s inside, LM or not. But LMs were often too nervous or vulnerable to bravely tell and show it, as if I were a judge or critic, even after I disclosed mine first. Then we eventually ended up being loyal friends, not close. With acquaintances or dates, the superficial interactions (without my glimmer) ended much sooner.”
@Snowphoenix.
Some more thoughts…
Sometimes I wonder whether limerents just expect too much from friendships? Or whether we expect too much too soon and that kind of ruins things unintentionally?
I wonder if limerents need to practise more patience when it comes to friendships? I wonder if we need to let things unfold organically, at a natural pace? I wonder if we’re not our own worst enemies?
I have this tiny hunch that people develop the most amazing friendships when they’re not even trying to develop amazing friendships, you know? Maybe limerents just try to control the process too much, or want to see results too soon? 😉
@Sammy,
The difference between being an active limerent and being an LO is the absence of the glimmer or LE in the latter. The challenge is ego (w/ its pride and vanity): I can get others’ limerent affections without any efforts, why can’t I get my LO’s? Often, my ego is forced to question repeatedly: who am I? Why do you feel or think entitled to LO’s limerent affections just because you have for them? What does “Fate” mean?
Influenced by my best friend — books, since young, I’ve already been genuinely curious about each individual’s internal IDs (changing) and lives — a subjectively meaningful life only exists, lived in one’s perceptive mind. LO’s external factual id rarely interest me, Billionaires in mansions suffer, too, as a buddhist would say.
As LO, I also found its easier to walk away from less known or attached limerent “friendship”. So in my LE, I tended to overshare my thoughts, emotions, all sort of intangible stuff with my LO, hoping they would not easily “trash” me as a replaceable vase. If my limerent passion can’t be reciprocated equally (I care more quality than quantity), at least I hope, they can treat me as a respectable person, possibly a friend just as I was, with all my insecurities and shortcoming. It’s much less gratifying; but when our LE fades away, we gain a friend (not if they are a Narc.)
That is what happened with my current fatherly-LO, who seems to have evolved from a colleague➡️colleague+friend➡️online confidant(mostly my volunteering monologues) ➡️semi-private friend➡️going for FWB — “Wait a minute, a booty call, a side chick, beside your “dreamed” wife and a secret limerent pet? Are you kidding me! ? (I can take FWB with an ex-LO, not an ongoing one) — it degrades my “eternal”, “sublime”, “numinous” passion, and wound my 35%narc’s pride, despite I have daydreamed, night-dreamed all sorts intimacies with you and furiously jealous of your new LO!” You see, having a dose of healthy pride is not so bad!
I knew it’s a dead end since the Day one, so tried my best to get close to him (he’s quite guided of his inside avoiding EA) while expecting as ittle as I could manage (no agendas with unavailable LO) — the hardest part, our limerent brain/heart does not listen to our logic! But my eyes could not help show that seemingly concealed glimmer! But eventually I realized that I was more in a limerence with my own passion and its fantasies, fueled by neurochemicals. As you say in another post, LO is a just a kick to “get the ball rolling”…. We limerents are in LE with our OWN desire, not the desired LO, who is merely an external fuse. Friedrich Nietzsche – “Ultimately, it is the desire, not the desired, that we love”.
“Yes, listening is a big issue when it comes to limerence-inspired attachments. I think at times I’ve been very sensitive to people I’ve liked and also very insensitive to people I’ve liked. And sometimes I was both sensitive and insensitive in the same “relationship”, which was very confusing for the other person.”….. They can’t remember that LOs sometimes have needs of their own.”
I was keen observant and a sensitive, non-judgmental listener to all my regular friends (f+m) as long as the Glimmer is absent. However, when LE was present, my six senses were just hijacked: I listened poorly about whatever LO said, cared little particularly if it is mandate stuff — very similar in our globalized world. Living with cPTSD, I was always too self-centered to care about LO’s reality, neither their socks nor snacks (I am embarrassed to confess that after 6 years, I don’t even know about LO’s favorite music or books or movies — simply forgot to ask). Only what possibly was in their dreamy or flickering eyes grabbed my attention, while chitchatting with my rather “snowy” composure — too intense to be even aroused physically . Yet, I was seldom certain what I was exactly looking for in their 👀, reciprocated affections or positive validations? (LO has been always friendly, supportive, positive to false.)
Since young after experiencing, witnessing human traumas, I could not stand superficiality, although I accept it’s necessary in logistical world. Nevertheless, I wished so much LOs could share their concerns or anxieties with me — a mental intimacy can then be naturally built; but they don’t if they’re not limerent for me — that’s my primary resentment for their non-reciprocity: “I shared my vulnerabilities as friend, why can’t you?”
After having binged for 6 years on questions like, “is he limerent for me?” “is he dallying with my affections? or “is he caring for me somewhat but can’t express?” I am now sick of what LO might think of me at all! What’s the point? Even in the thick of LE, I worried much more about the ultimate death of my own unrequired passion, not LO’s changing mind or fickle heart — which was never and will never be anyone else’s anyway (Stoicism)! Thus, nowadays I am quite content about who I have improved to be, although my complex selfs constantly compete with each other within.
I could get angry when an (un)conscious Narc LO tried to manipulate me through their white or black lies, blow cold or hot deeds, or demonstrate subtle arrogance (not this LO, he’s more of an insecure Sensor). My father “barked” Narc LO #3 away for me (our grandfathers were cousins), and (after 1 glass of white wine in my empty stomach in a charity fundraising reception) I fist punched LO #6’s face in front of his colleagues outside a restaurant I happened to passing. Yet, half a hour later, he buzzed my door insisting a reconciliation. I did give it for the night, but it ultimately severed my LE completely. Afterwards, I suffered a depression for nearly a year.
“The hard thing, though, is limerents can’t seem to turn off that extreme emotional pain (in chest) when rejection appears imminent. Limerents who have experienced a lot of pain (real and/or perceived rejection) then become obsessed with avoiding pain. The LO, in many cases, probably doesn’t want to inflict emotional pain on the limerent, and is not sure why their “friend” or colleague is acting so quiet/withdrawn all of a sudden. Limerence seems to introduce all this crazy tension into relationships that doesn’t need to be there. “
So accurate! As a limerent, we have to face and endure that emotional pain of rejection; there is no other ways around it. I tried it with my eyes open a couple of months ago, they did dissipate after 20-40 minutes of “staring” 👁️ at it — an effect of most mindful meditations. 🧘♂️ As an LO, I subtly withdrew from friends-suitors (unsure whether LE is in them) with genuine smiles and cares of a friend, so as not to cause the pain or even despair on the other sides. As LE sufferer, I usually went NC/LC first with its unavoidable, consequential melancholy; but it’s much better, TO ME, than that abandonment melange and its trigged panic attacks, like Zeus’ fury thunderbolt over a puppy’s head; my psychophysiological system could not handle it — I got thyroid lymphoma; no one else in my family of 3 generations even had thyroid diseases (have been increasing in this stress-filled era.)
@Sammy,
Based on Dr. L, when we’re in LE, it’s already too late to pursue a genuine friendship with LO, which I agree. However, whether a friendship could be developed, before limerents slip into a full-blown LE, is a question. I need a new LO to test that possibility.
It’s not that limerents expect too much (I didn’t), it’s the neurochemical intensity behind the glimmer, like a tsunami, that could make LO run for the hills. If we can turn down the pace and degree knob, take patience and time — at LO’s willing pace, to get to know and accept him as an unique person (not a Unicorn) with all his colors and shades, I think it’s possible to develop and keep an healthy friendship.
However, a clear goal needs to be set in mind — I’m going to befriend with LOs, that’s it! Whether it fails or succeeds, the joy lies in the process. Any unexpected crops would be a bonus of my life!
Nowadays, everyone seems to be ruining short of time and energy, pursuing that “have it all” Nirvana. It’s hard to “organically” grow a substantial friendship, with our eyes and fingers, like mine, glued to the screen and keyboard. 😀
It seems that I’m just chatting with you and other limerents here, respectively; but deep down, I’m also talking to my big Ego, which feeds the Unconscious that somehow could help clarify and transform our LE muddled brain. My reality “test” is coming up, I need my neurons calm, willpower firm….
Happy chatting!
Typo: running short of time and energy
@Sammy,
About #12 on the list: I only felt sadness, not much guilt. A bit of a fatalist, I see some imperfections and tragedies in this world have little manmade cause, but a Fate. Who brings us the glimmer, how and why?
From a LO’s eyes: if someone, limerent or not, came to me, poured out their precious, delicate heart, willing to make efforts to please, support, serve, and pair-bond with me in my preferred ways, that’s most invaluable treasure I could not buy anywhere in the world! I was touched and “grateful” most of the time (although I could not take the offer.)
Then, with one fixed “excuse” —Sorry, I did not have the glimmer and was unable to cultivate it, I firmly “pushed them out of my door (to a better destination, but they couldn’t see it during an infatuation or LE). So they felt heart broken or ego wounded with inconsolable sadness in their longing eyes… What could I feel besides a melancholy — it’s not anyone’s fault, but that genomic instinct!
A question: do we limerents remain a faithful limerent-friend, in reality or in mind, with our first crush — LO #1?
@Snowphoenix.
Thank you for taking the time to reply. I appreciate your thoughtful commentary.
“The difference between being an active limerent and being an LO is the absence of the glimmer or LE in the latter.”
Yes, correct. Unless we’re talking mutual limerence, in which both parties function as limerent and LO at the same time (to each other). 😉
“I can get others’ limerent affections without any efforts, why can’t I get my LO’s? Often, my ego is forced to question repeatedly: who am I? Why do you feel or think entitled to LO’s limerent affections just because you have for them? What does “Fate” mean?”
Oof! Moving into some very deep water here!! But I think limerence is mostly triggered by the inherently unattainable nature of inherently unattainable people. In other words, “fate”, if such a thing exists, is always going to be frustrated. 😜
“But eventually I realized that I was more in a limerence with my own passion and its fantasies, fueled by neurochemicals.”
Such a fascinating insight!
“We limerents are in LE with our OWN desire, not the desired LO, who is merely an external fuse. ”
Wow. Just wow.
“Friedrich Nietzsche – “Ultimately, it is the desire, not the desired, that we love”.”
I never liked Mr Nietzsche very much. Now I know why! (Too much honesty). 😆
“I wished so much LOs could share their concerns or anxieties with me …”
I was jealous my LO/s had platonic friends closer to them than me, and I assumed they were opening up to these platonic friends and not to me! How awful to be jealous of someone’s platonic friends!! What kind of “platonic friend” am I to be jealous of someone’s other platonic friends? 🤣
“… but it’s much better, TO ME, than that abandonment melange and its trigged panic attacks, like Zeus’ fury thunderbolt over a puppy’s head; my psychophysiological system could not handle it …”
The anxiety triggered by limerence is what I too couldn’t handle very well. I like the thunderbolt/puppy’s head metaphor, by the way. Very erudite and cute all at the same time! 😛
“Based on Dr. L, when we’re in LE, it’s already too late to pursue a genuine friendship with LO, which I agree.”
Also agree.
“However, whether a friendship could be developed, before limerents slip into a full-blown LE, is a question. I need a new LO to test that possibility.”
I suspect that any genuine pre-existing friendship would be contaminated and thus ruined by the subsequent LE – unless, of course, the limerent was a very mature person in general with amazing self-awareness, and understood the potential hazards of the situation inside out. 😉
“It’s not that limerents expect too much (I didn’t), it’s the neurochemical intensity behind the glimmer, like a tsunami, that could make LO run for the hills.”
Beautifully said. Sometimes, the LO sees this “tsunami” coming long before the limerent does. Another great metaphor!! 👍
“About #12 on the list: I only felt sadness, not much guilt. A bit of a fatalist, I see some imperfections and tragedies in this world have little manmade cause, but a Fate. Who brings us the glimmer, how and why?”
Okay. Thank you for clarifying your feelings. Sadness, not much guilt. I think I would feel a lot of guilt if someone said they really liked me, and I couldn’t give them what they wanted because – as you said earlier – that person didn’t glimmer for me in any way. 🤔
“A question: do we limerents remain a faithful limerent-friend, in reality or in mind, with our first crush — LO #1?”
An interesting question. I think, prior to my first LE, I occasionally saw someone whose physical attributes inspired fleeting feelings of ecstasy in me. I was intrigued by these feelings of ecstasy. But I didn’t necessary like the person with said physical attributes. It was only after I met someone with an attractive personality as well as an attractive appearance that I became limerent. So, for me, attractive appearance + appealing personality = The Glimmer. 🤔
I have kind of remained faithful in my mind to my “first crush”, for want of a better term. Nothing remotely interesting ever happened between me and this individual. As I get older, I realise that my fidelity to this person – or, more accurately, my fidelity to my idea/mental picture of this person – is unhealthy, if not outright ridiculous. I need to let go of my idea of this person so I can have satisfying relationships with the people right in front of me. 🤔
@Sammy,
“Unless we’re talking mutual limerence, in which both parties function as limerent and LO at the same time (to each other). “
It’s more complicated. Let’s assume Tunnov’s theory on two type of people — limerent （Lm) and non-limerent (nL) is true; I sense them whether they’re limerent type or not, by sensing their libido/qi intensity of flow.
For the discussion here, i exclude non-limerent (nL) person reciprocating non-limerent person cases. I assume they don’t see or unconsciously treat each other as an Object.
(Non) Glimmer — nG. ↔️: two-way reciprocating (rc) ➡️: one-way rc or going into. 🧚♀️ —SnowP.
A: Both are limerents, have the Glimmer:
1. G Lm ↔️ G Lm-LO —— no one ➡️ LE, if w/o barriers.
G Lm ↔️ G Lm-LO —— both ➡️ LE, if w/ barriers (🧚♀️ LO #1 + #2)
B: Without barrier, but w/ personality or the glimmer’s presence
2. G (nl-Lm + Lm) ➡️ nG Lm-LO —— G Lm ➡️ LE. (🧚♀️ = LOs)
nG Lm ↔️ G nL-LO —— nG-Lm ➡️ LE (🧚♀️ LO #3 +#6, nL LO were Narc)
G Lm ↔️ G nL-LO —— no one ➡️ LE (🧚♀️ LO #4 marriage ➡️ divorce)
nG Lm ➡️ nG Lm-LO —— nG Lm ➡️ LE (🧚♀️ LO #5, FWB)
G Lm ➡️ (or ↔️?) G Lm-LO —— Lm (+LO?)➡️ LE, w/ SO (🧚♀️LO #7)
⬆️: an application of my bloody “Discrete Mathematics” that let me to the learning and experiencing of beneficial Qigong. Did not have enough time to gather and move enough qi before my drunken fist punched Narc LO #6’s left cheek. 🙃
“Oof! Moving into some very deep water here!! But I think limerence is mostly triggered by the inherently unattainable nature of inherently unattainable people. In other words, “fate”, if such a thing exists, is always going to be frustrated. “
True! When logic does not explain emotional phenomenons and behaviors are driven by the Unconscious, we are “fated” to be deeply frustrated but could be amused if leaving possible ending-results on the back-burner — “Prepare the worst, try your best” (Dad’s words).
From my experiences, your LE understanding (above) is true; however, I firmly believe that the Glimmer has nothing to do with one’s traumatic history or “anything of substantial”. All my glimmers took place within 5 seconds upon seeing the stranger LO (they had to be ignorant of my existence at that moment), before I even had time to notice if any ring on LO’s fingers or what shirt he’s wearing. If LO glimmered at me first and pursued me to date them, I could be led to into a LE if LO dallied with my emotions; but soon or later, it would break (LO #3, #6) without my deep *sigh”.
“I was jealous my LO/s had platonic friends closer to them than me, and I assumed they were opening up to these platonic friends and not to me! How awful to be jealous of someone’s platonic friends!! What kind of “platonic friend” am I to be jealous of someone’s other platonic friends?”
The same here. I so desire such sharing (sharing of Ego mind behind our persona) as a platonic friend with LO, much more than a physical “intimacy” — I don’t consider aloof, dashing, SE is “intimate” (one/two-night stand is just horrible to me even with a killer-face). Limerent passion, by definition, “genetically” or numinously strives for much deeper emotional and mental connections.
“I suspect that any genuine pre-existing friendship would be contaminated and thus ruined by the subsequent LE – unless, of course, the limerent was a very mature person in general with amazing self-awareness, and understood the potential hazards of the situation inside out. “
That’s the goal I’m working on nowadays. I believe, shamelessly 👁️ our Self (persona + Ego + Unconscious-via dreams), accepting our limerent disposition, discussing shared frustrations, fears, and resentments, debating about how we could evolve into a maturer limerent in the complex world… will definitely help us all here.
“Sometimes, the LO sees this “tsunami” coming long before the limerent does. Another great metaphor!!”
Limerent LOs (vs. nL LOs) are very sensitive themselves. They can spot “the look” (borrowing from “Call me Cordelia”) before it becomes “tsunami”. If “the look” is calm, confident, joyfully glimmered, LO would welcome it and may wish to befriend with the limerent. If “the look” subconsciously shows their Eager lust or instinctual desires, LOs would run for the hills.
“Thank you for clarifying your feelings. Sadness, not much guilt. I think I would feel a lot of guilt if someone said they really liked me, and I couldn’t give them what they wanted because – as you said earlier – that person didn’t glimmer for me in any way.”
Guilt? Wait until you have to go NC with a LO who beautifully reciprocates your heart but can’t be with you, due to external barriers, then you’d really feel an unbearable weight of guilt. LO#1 stood a couple of hours under my window in the dawn of his wedding day and told me (10 years later) his life was “ruined” even with a loving wife and son. 🥲 LO #2 was literally on his knees when I declared NC to his face. 😳 But I rarely look back once my decision was made for my own good.
Any flashing image of platonic LO #1 still gives me a subtle cringe in my chest (LO # 7 was jealous of LO #1’s-ghost and so cutely giddy when told LE 1 was totally gone). Someone said recently on this site that our LO#1 often set a perfect Phantom in us for good, and all later LOs are helplessly compared to this LO #1. It’s a kind of true. That’s how my current Phantom was born, with LO#1’s heart but LO#7’s blurry face and physique. Dr L could send his clone to my direction, but this evolving Phantom cannot be taken away. It would be biggest challenge for next LO to break in.
My major LOs (along with other dates/lovers — w/o any LE set off) are very different in ethnicity, culture, profession, taste…. But they all (except two non-limerent Narc LOs) share a common aura: sweet, soft, caring, a bit of melancholy and dreamy EYES (a stereotype poet in romance movies). Two (#1, #5) were “poets” with tears easily rolling down, two (#4, #5) were sometimes approached as a gay men.
I had the glimmer and ignorantly pined 6 months for a beautiful gay man. Another sweet gay man “secretly went LE” with me for nearly 2 years until I encountered his annoying jealousy at LO# 6. We are chatting online occasionally nowadays; during the pandemic, he moved back to his mother’s house in another city to take care of her.
“So if sexual power doesn’t reside in the body and if sexual power doesn’t reside in sexuality, where does sexual power reside? I think true sexual power/sexual allure resides in PERSONALITY. In other words, it must be the personalities of certain people that create desire and not physical attributes or functions. Bodies alone, or sexuality by itself, doesn’t seem to inspire great heights of passion.”
Someone said that the sexiest organ is brain and sexual power resides in human mind. I now agree with it, after this longest LE .
I’m leaning a INFP. When quickly glancing at or look into anyone’s eyes, I just sense whatever is inside. Usually my initiation was not off, confirmed or self-confessed by friends and LOs. When I dismissed it, a mistake of big or small was consequentially made (95%). My “opinion” were sometimes sought for job interviewees.
Thank you, Snowphoenix. That is an interesting perspective I hadn’t thought about. I’ll try to keep it in my mind when I get, like Sammy said, resentful for “daring to lead their own lives without factoring me into the decision-making process.”
@Cfc
I am still trying to keep that question active in my head: who am I and what have I done to “demand” or expect LO’s attentions, affections, or considerations in mind-sharing or “decision-making”?
When ego is present, no heart-felt love, even an unrequited one, could survive, which can enrich one’s life, particularly with a SO.
I do not want to and can not kill my Phantom — it is a muse that inspires me writing and talking with you here, although you’re more of a “real” ghost…. 😇
Hello speedwagon, nice to get an update from you. Good to hear you are still fighting the good fight! Seriously be very proud of your resilience and strength and intense efforts you put in on a daily basis!!
I’m not sure how I could cope in your situation.
You wrote : “The only tricky part is after a week or so the grief makes me want to engage her because I get sympathetic feelings towards her, I engage, and thus the pendulum swings. Still working on that.”
Can you maybe introduce something new into your life/work routine to disrupt your normal patterns and habits to stop/reinvent this pendulum of behaviours? Even changing your office setup, walk around on video calls, do a work self development course or other qualification, start a daily huddle session with the team, lead a project over and above your job, network with new work contacts or other sources… Linked-in etc. I’m sure a lot of this doesnt apply.. but I’m trying to say disrupt your reverie and get a new buzz in work other than LO may help. Best wishes for the working week ahead….I have to face my own struggles albeit much more manageable!
Thanks for reply, IMHO
I feel pretty comfortable with my routine. My day is pretty busy, both at office and at home. I stay occupied and don’t feel bored reverie is so much the problem.
I guess what I’m getting at is, after some time of disengaging from LO my rescue fantasy kicks in and I start to feel as if LO needs my attention and interest. Combine that with me just kidding her friendship and I start to see her as a sympathetic figure. So I start to lose my resolve to keep interactions work based and I initiate personal conversation with her in hopes that she feels some level of relief and happiness that I have shown her personal attention.
But at this point in my LE, providing her personal attention only builds desire and hope that she reciprocates and she never does to my satisfaction and that get me frustrated and angry. So…better to just stay away from personal interaction all together. The only tricky part is when I show my other employees personal interest and then I feel like she must think I’m being cold to her. So I try to work in some superficial pleasantries with her so she doesn’t think I’m mad or something.
It’s a total balancing act on a high wire tight rope and for now it’s the best I can do.
*missing her friendship* not kidding
Hi Speedwagon, IMHO, Snowphoenix, and others.
Speedwagon: my situation is very similar to yours. Have been travelling quite a lot, and that has given me a chance to go NC, which seemed to have helped tremendously. I shared a post in another forum some time back saying that it finally feels like I am making some serious progress in putting this LE behind me. However, there was a recent interaction and that had bought everything crashing down. Feelings of depression/sadness/disappointment all over, that are worst immediately after the interaction and last several days. These feelings persist even though there may be no exchange of words. I too am tired of this whole LE, as it is so emotionally draining. I totally agree with you that in comparison the mild grief over NC is way more manageable. As of now, cannot see any light at the end of the tunnel. Would really appreciate any advice on how I can manage the situation, and be less affected negatively, after LO interaction.
@ ABCD
Sorry to hear you took such a big step back. I feel your pain.
As mentioned, at this point in my LE, the best method for me is to completely disengage from my LO on a personal level. I only interact with her to manage her work. I try to keep interactions short, and I try to not have the long gazey eye contact we would have. My LO is fairly introverted, and to be honest, a bit self absorbed, so she does not initiate personal conversation with me almost ever which is nice when trying to be LC. My relationship with LO is really solely dictated by my effort.
One tactic I have stuck by is I always take a sort 10 min mid morning walk and mid afternoon walk to stretch the legs and organize my thoughts. Helps a lot each day.
Last, there is another woman at work that I have become quite decent friends with who is not an LO that I find can be a good distraction to me from LO. It’s been good to lean into that relationship more.
@Speedwagon
I don’t know your story well (only being here for month), are you LO’s direct or indirect boss? If you’re, LO might be afraid of losing her job, she is really balancing “on a high wire tight rope”, have you thought of that, and truly cared for her concerns?
Let’s assume there is such an anxiety inside her, then how would you know what her (re)actions towards your LE-inflected behaviors mean?
I’m a her direct boss and employer. Her job is secure, I have never hinted in the slightest that I would get rid of her because of my LE. And that is the truth, I never would do that to her. She is a good employee. I don’t get any sense from her she is worried about her job.
At this point I’m not trying to figure out what any of her behavior means. It’s of no consequence to me. I’m just trying as best as possible to coexist with her and keep myself in the best emotional shape that I can be in while I weather this LE. Prior to my LE my relationship with her was fairly work only. Then LE happened and we got close personally for a while because I pursued her. Now I am slowly unraveling that back to a work only relationship.
@speedwagon
Glad to hear that LE dynamic at your work seem to be going steady in a mutually beneficial direction.
@ABCD
Sorry to hear that your sitatuion is stressing you. I’ll be in your shoes in just another week, anxiety is building up inside me after three months of NC. I’ll have to test out my newly gained peace and resistance while going LC this time.
My own coping methods are:
1. Keep a cardio workout about 30 minutes per day or 4 miles of walking along a river.
2. Meditation, at least twice a day or whenever depression/anxeity/sadness get hold of me. I crave for tears (very hard for me) that meditation could help bring.
3. Writing and writing (not orally talking) — my frustrations, resentments, fears, sadness, etc, posting here, reading LwL stories to feel less “isolated in suffering LE” and books — not romance. Actively playing with words always gives me “high,” making the rest of the world disappearing for the time being.
4. Avoid Carbo food and alcohol— really worsen stress, but a lot of fruits, veges, protein.
Have a faith and patience! Dr L says that it takes time to get rid of LE pains — it’s neurochemical, not a fault of our willpower. It may take three-steps forward and two steps back (I failed 3 NC in the past 1.5 yrs before finding LwL), but keep going!
Good luck, and let us know how you’re doing!
If you like opera, play those classical, sad arias through a big amplifier. I’ve learned that in old times when Italians feel sad, what they do? Listen to operas or sing along. It works for me.
Also try to sweat once a day (15 – 30 mins) through vigorous dance-workout. Once energy/Qi gets moved within, your body and mind can’t help but feel better. YouTube has tons of follow-alongs.
Feel better!
Thanks Snowphoenix for lending an ear and for sharing your coping methods. I will try them all out for sure, they make a lot of sense. I am already doing a couple of these. Absolutely, faith and patience are both key, it’s a long and challenging path, but one which we all must take.
All the best with your upcoming LC, wish you lots of strength and courage. Do let us know how it goes. Thanks!
@ABCD
Thank you for your support and wish!
At this moment, I don’t know what I am feeling about coming unknowns, so just coping with my unnamed stress with a barrage of monologues on this quiet limerence stage, watched and heard by uncountable limerents souls… 🙂
Hi my fellow limerents, Speedwagon, ABCD, Snowphoenix, MJ,
Wishing you all tons of courage in your interactions with LOs. I don’t know if men have more emotional control when interacting with Lo, but me as a woman, I think I’d just faint or cry out right in front of LO. It would be unbearable to me to see him and behave as if nothing is happening inside me.I don’t get to see LO or speak to him but the intrusive thoughts seem to be holding on steadily, very painful and frustrating. I was on vacations and he was “everywhere “! Just too debilitating and tiring, can’t wait till I can shake lo off of me, if ever…
Good morning Nisor, thank you for the courage. Glad to see you back from your trip. Think my LO is on vacation this week. Have not seen her, but Lord knows I’ll need the courage when I do. I could probably break down and cry, if the mood hit me right. I like to think I have proper emotional control. Yet I’ll probably be more like that deer in headlights again when she comes around.
Such a spell LO casts over me. So crazy.
“I don’t know if men have more emotional control when interacting with LO”
Nisor
Even before LO I’ve had pretty good control over my emotions in public. LO certainly elicited different behaviors in me, but not so much emotional displays. It was more my words and actions that seemed out of my control.
In private that is a completely different thing. But I have always been that way. In frustration, sorrow, or anger I am always better at letting them out when I am alone when no one will see them. I hate that I cry and I hate my temper. I need to keep them under control. They don’t need to control me. So that LO can make them emotions come out is frustrating to say the least.
I think the one thing she did more than anyone/anything has, is make me smile so much. The simplest of “thank yous” would have me grinning ear to ear. Maybe even blushing.
These threads are so long, I have no idea if I hit the right Reply button…
@Sammy, this just hit me right into the heart:
„I suspect that any genuine pre-existing friendship would be contaminated and thus ruined by the subsequent LE – unless, of course, the limerent was a very mature person in general with amazing self-awareness, and understood the potential hazards of the situation inside out. 😉“
My current LE is for my best male friend, we’ve been good friends for years and my LE developed this year, and I try to do the right thing all the time, but it‘s so hard, and I certainly wouldn’t describe myself as this sort of enlightened person you described, so I feel hopeless now…
Our relationship was quite intense in the last months. We haven’t seen each other in the last weeks but texted daily.
I think he‘s in some kind of limerent state too, but don’t think he is capable of this limerent frenzy I‘m unfortunately capable of.
I was quite vexed by the texting because I had the feeling he texted less or I texted too much or whatever, and this anxiety (will he text by this evening, do I send this picture or is it too much etc)made me so uncomfortable, also I had the feeling of going on his nerves, so I texted him that I won’t bother him for a while (nicely, not resentful).
He replied once, but since then it‘s kind of NC, and now I don’t know if it was a good and brave move from my side and we will both be better off by it, or if it was plain overreaction and I would have better done if I just texted less, or let things develop as they would.
Also I don’t know if he feels liberated and can enjoy his time with his family , or if he thinks I had enough of him, or if he‘s kind of angry and plays a game of „who texts again the first“.
I try to see it as a good thing and not to think about it so much, can’t take it back now…
Thanks that I can unload this here.
Just when I finished this post he texted…
@Speedwagon.
Thanks for sharing these points. The idea of walks to organise thoughts sounds really good, will give that a try. Periods of NC seem to be more manageable. Regulating emotions during LO interactions or even sightings seems to be the really hard and challenging part that needs work. The aftermath of these events is quite painful. Hope it gets better with time.
I have got to the point now where I really don’t want to interact with LO at all. I wish I could be 100% NC but I cannot. I pray often for her to move away. I feel it’s a real drag that I have to disengage from her so completely, but with limerence there really is no middle ground. It is either full reciprocation or nothing. Everything in between is just misery it seems. You would think I could just make a decision to say I can have a mild, normal, honest friendship with this woman, but everytime I go down that road I end up stoking limerent desires. I can handle the work related interactions I have with LO because it’s my duty/job to do so and I can compartmentalize those interactions and not ruminate on them but any personal interaction, no matter how trivial, will send me into negative rumination. So unfortunate but at the same time I see this as a step towards recovery. I think I have moved past the fantasy of LO and accepted that she truly does not desire me. I am in a disengagement phase now.
@Speedwagon,
You seem to have a solid resolve now. I wish you luck with that. Very true that anything in between is just misery..
@MJ.
I have been following your LE. How are you feeling right now with regards to your LE.
@ABCD,
Today, I felt rather drained over it. LO hasn’t been at work the past few days, so it’s made things a little sad for me because I miss her, but then again, I’m not really with her, so I’m always missing her. (If that makes any damn sense)
Lately, I’m just now beginning to process how much time I waste on her and it gets irritating sometimes when I really look at it for what it is. To approach this Woman has been more daunting to me than trying to see if I can jump high enough to reach the moon.
I think Crappy Childhood Fairy said it best. “Limerence is like pouring concrete on the engine of your life.”
I don’t know if there is a better way to put it. I think I’m frustrated because I would like to have Speedwagons resolve, but my life is otherwise so pathetic right now, I don’t even care to try.
Thank you for asking though. Sorry if I’m too much in the doldrums today.
Thinking of you, MJ. I’m struggling a bit too at the moment. I also wish this NC could go on, Speedwagon, as horrible as it is. I fear what will happen when I have to see LO again.
@Speedwagon.
Yes, it’s quite painful when one desires NC, but that is not an option. Having to engage in such scenarios is very hard. You are showing a lot of courage and moving ahead, and are on the path to recovery. May I ask how you feel post these work engagements, sorry if I asked the wrong question. I am having a tough time processing my emotions post interactions.
My work interactions with her are very routine day in day out. I guess I’m used to them. They always follow a same pattern. As long as things stay on script then the work interactions don’t really affect me. They are routine, boring interactions and as I mentioned, I see them as my duty being her manager.
But occasionally things go off script and that can be tough. Anything that happens that is new or different causes my limerent brain to ruminate and that’s what I try to avoid. One of the work things I try to avoid is having to go anywhere with LO. Going somewhere means I spend alone time with her and that is poison to me.
Keep things routine, that is my greatest focus.
Actually, today we have an end of summer office event, and LOs SO will be there. So already it’s an off script day and I am preparing myself for a tougher day and possible lows later. But it’s one day and I can push through. It doesn’t have to derail me from the bigger picture. After initial pleasantries I am just going to try to steer clear of LO and her SO.
@Snowphoenix.
I hear you. Whenever there is news of an upcoming interaction with LO, the tension and anxiety seems to build up, not a good feeling. Then comes the post interaction blues. Its a cycle that keeps repeating. Really need to break out of this. Hoping for better times for us all.
@ABCD
It’s so comforting that you can sense what’s going on in my head. It’s this sense of not knowing or feeling worries me….
Despite being much calmer and knowing more about neurochemical causes/effects behind limerence, I am afraid of my unruly neurons’ behavior when I have to face LO.
I’ll try to mediate more and to reduce encountering chances.
@Snowphoenix
Yes, I have felt that meditating and praying helps me whenever I get an uneasy feeling with regards to LO. Right now, I can sense that LO is pulling back, so perhaps I am not getting the dopamine fix, and am experiencing withdrawal symptoms. The pain is inevitable, but I am trying to navigate it the best I can, some days are better than others.
@ABCD
I know what you’re experiencing now. A few nights before, I even dreamt LO pulling off NC with me (posted in “limerence with dreams”) so I suffered a “real” panic attack and woke up with a real chest pain for a couple of hours!
No matter what happens, keep meditating and praying everyday, they are effective to reduce all sorts of stresses, based on my experiences. It is not a placebo, even induced a “dopamine fix” in me (not after all sessions) in past 6 weeks. But the increasing stress of the last couple of days is affecting its quality.
Yes, the LE pain is unavoidable. Let’s all bravely face and handle it with clear awareness and specific tools. We will get through it.
Just curious (not that it matters or make any difference): are you a woman or man?
@Snowphoenix.
Woah, chest pains is something. I have got a few panic attacks in the past, generally I take deep breaths and they subside.
Feels good to know that you get my thought process. We are all in this together. Thanks so much for the words of encouragement. They give me confidence.
I am a male. How about you, if I may ask?
I have had panic attacks and times where I have felt like something very close to chest pains over LO. They happen when I feel so low, I could be drowning. That’s how intense my feelings for her are. I know it can’t be healthy, but nobody has ever been like LO. She’s easily the most profound person ever, to cross my path..
@MJ
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I can understand how you feel. The same thing happens to me as well. A deer that caught in headlights seems to sum it up best. Perhaps you can try to just say hello when you cross LO path next time, that may be a confidence builder.
You know she’s not though, right, MJ? Trying to give some tough love here, you don’t actually know her at all. She might be an awful person, or be really annoying in conversation, or be pretty dull. She might not of course, but she’s not a goddess. She’s an ordinary person who looks good, dresses well and has given you confusing signals.
I’m really sorry if that hurts but while you think like that and practise making yourself feel bad it’s going to carry on feeling awful. Have you got your therapist sorted yet? I feel you need someone to help you start to pull yourself away from this and start to be able to live the life you deserve.
Sending love from someone else grasping at the walls of the hole she’s in.
C for Cat,
Thank you for the tough love Cat. You say things I know I need to hear. I know deep down she’s not perfect. That she is a real person with real thoughts and feelings and a life far reserved from me.
I guess it’s all that about her on the outside, that looks so good, I feel like she has to be nothing but good on the inside. She doesn’t come across as a miserable person, or even mean actually. I know appearances can be deceiving though. Her friends have told me she’s nice, but with me, I just feel like I put her at unease. Something about me, I think she’s not sold on, so maybe all those stares were disgust. I don’t know.
Her Dude friend seems to be hanging around more nowadays too, so I think he might be more than just a friend to her.
He’ll look at me kinda stare-like now and then, like he thinks he might know I’m into her, but he’s yet to confront me about it. And he’s had plenty of opportunity to catch me in the parking lot alone. I’m not trying to start anything though. I’m not going to get in a d!@% swinging match with the guy.
I should be starting therapy soon. I just had the first intake appointment so we’ll see how that turns out.
Hope you’re doing ok today and slowly creeping up out of the hole. We need to meet for tea again soon. I miss you.. 😊💖
Hey MJ. She might be nice. But if she’s with someone else now or if she’s not interested it doesn’t really matter I suppose.
Glad to hear you’ve finally got your therapy off the ground. I really hope it helps. I’m procrastinating contacting the one my SO found for me. Scared of what might be interested I suppose.
MJ
Both ABCD and C4Cat are right. The difference you have with your LO and myself, is you have a chance to get to know your LO. If she will let you in you can know things about her that I never could with LO. She maybe a dull or boring person. She could be a bad person. She could also be enlightening, fun, social and sweet woman. You have the power to at least make an attempt to get to know her. And if she isn’t who you think she is, you at least know and can move on.
Everyone at work would always say LO had a short temper. I never saw her temper and would always defend her unequivocally that was a lie and that LO was always so nice to me. Did LO have a temper? There’s the saying that the shorter the woman the bigger the temper. :-/ And LO wasn’t tall.
🙂 What I guess I am getting at is you can make an attempt to get to know your LO if she will let you in. I only got to know LO at the surface, and I can’t seem to get her completely out of my head yet. Anything I got to know about her was all within her control.
“Somehow I get kinda shy
and I can’t look you in the eye
I come all apart inside
when I’m with you”
I Think I’m In Love Again — Paul Anka
Sound familiar MJ? I know it does for me. You can do this buddy! Knock her off her feet.
@Adam,
“Somehow I get kinda shy
and I can’t look you in the eye
I come all apart inside
when I’m with you”
That’s exactly what happens when LO is close by. I look for that perfect moment, or the second she’s within range to approach. She’s either busy working, talking with somebody else, or giving me the signal through body language to stay in my lane. So it seems senseless to even go on, since that’s pretty much obvious rejection.
I guess I just want to know what all her stares meant. Like every day, incredible, mind-blowing eye contact that sucked me in like a shop vac. Like I just want to tell her she can’t do that to me and then not expect me to fall in love. Or at least love the idea of loving her. I’d hate to think she’s a mind-game player, but when she looks as spectacular as she does, perhaps it’s ok for her to get away with it.. Probably not though.
Believe me Bro, I want to know her. I want to know everything about her inside and out, up and down, and everything in between. I want to be challenged and find out if I am infact wrong for assuming she’s a real life goddess. Like I probably deserve to regret meeting her at some point. Find out she’s a hot mess and watch her ruin my life some more. I mean I really don’t deserve somebody of her caliber. Maybe she already knows that. But overall I’m just crushed she could look at me like that and it not mean anything. Like did she need to be rescued and I missed the cue?? I don’t know if I could forgive myself for that.
I think its more like what Cordelia said and because it was my fault, I didn’t own up to my infatuation, LO couldn’t address it. So ultimately she withdraws and keeps her distance. I think sometimes that’s what maybe she was trying to tell me with her eyes.
Instead of always hypothesizing things, I know I should just do something about it.
Act MJ, ACT!!
“I’d hate to think she’s a mind-game player, but when she looks as spectacular as she does, perhaps it’s ok for her to get away with it..”
There’s some truth to the fact that it seems beautiful people can behave how they want without the same consequences as the rest of us do.
One of things that helps me with this episode is, trying to “vilify” LO. Did she enjoy the fact that she got the attention of a married man and got inside his head? Did she like that I was always looking out for best interest? Did she like the special treatment I gave her and manipulate me to keep that attention? So innocently and slyly that I couldn’t see it?
I think it was fairly soon after I found this place, I had mentioned that I found it strange that LO actually seemed more attuned to the attention I gave her after she started seeing this man, than she did before. I remember L.E saying his opinion was that she wanted to keep me on the back burner in case things went south with this man. Or she was enjoying the attention of two men. Or both.
Maybe after a bad divorce with a man that cheated on her that attention I was so willing to give her gave her a significant ego boost. Which I’ve never been through a divorce and certainly not taken the blow of spouse having an affair. So I cannot judge too harshly on that.
And it’s not really to “vilify” her as much as it is to dismantle the pedestal that I put this idealized version of LO on, not so much the woman she actually is … manipulative or not.
If you think that your LO has no interest in you, and if you are reading her cues that she is telling you to back off, than maybe this could help you too.
The idea I am starting to get is LO is a limerent OBJECT. We have turned a real person into an object. We idealize them to who we want them to be, based on their real behavior. Then the more that we stay limerent with them the more they become that CGC slabbed Detective Comic #27 … on object of adoration that you want to show you have to everyone else.
Whatever works, I have to keep doing it to get through this. If for nothing more than to keep my sanity. And so this doesn’t happen again.
Concurring with all above MJ…. our LOs may be based on the bare bones of a real person but they are mostly a fictional person onto whom we have projected all our relationship needs and with whom we are all having a fantasy relationship. We imagine being with them intimately so often, with such intensity that our subconscious minds believe the person and relationship is real. But they are truly not. Your salvation does not lie with LO, it lies with giving up on the dream. Easier said than done of course, but finding purpose elsewhere is the key.
It has taken me years for this truth to really sink in, for me to fully believe it. I have to constantly remind myself not to be deceived by my fantasies, not to take a smile or a friendly hello to be anything more than a polite greeting. To truly know there is no hope and I am not (any longer) anything special to LO. It is a depressing reality at times, but you can come out the other side of your LE if you choose to.
I still really fancy LO though… darn it!
Allie1,
“Your salvation does not lie with LO, it lies with giving up on the dream.”
Thank you for the reply. So much of what you wrote is exactly where I am in the LE. That line about giving up on the dream really speaks to me. I completely get where you are coming from.
I believe sometimes that LO is the most perfect companion.
When things don’t go my way, I feel like we’re not getting along, or close to breaking up or that we have broken up. I end up crying about it like I’m a big baby. Sometimes it feels like a very bad breakup and yet, we’ve never even been together. Its all fantasy. It’s crazy how the mind can trick us.
My LE continues because of my life circumstances that are basically in the gutter. My options are almost non existent. It’s an excuse and it’s weird, but I just don’t care enough to be interested in anyone else, if it’s not LO. Just where I’m at now.
The fact that it has taken you years to fully grasp the reality of your LE almost scares me. I’ve often believed I won’t get over LO until somebody can replace her. Until then, I will probably have to remind myself like you do, of not believing the fantasies or getting her down off the pedestal. Also really scared about the depressing reality of not having her.
How interesting! 😳 Somehow I have been feeling you’re a female all this time, and still do, even you confirmed otherwise.
Phoenix is always female. In one mythology, her counterpart is Dragon.
Your posts and some of other females is making me wonder now: just how much of Animus/masculinity is running inside me? I grew up with so little of anima/femininity in my family that consequently I subconsciously looked for it especially in men, as well in women (➡️ had pair-bonding desire here). If encountering strong masculinity, I ran for the hills or ended up punching their face, figuratively or realistically (LO #3 & #6). ☺️
Nowadays, my panic attacks can be managed by an immediate meditation or jolting down their roots — specific fears.
Sending you some sunny vibes …
@Snowphoenix
Thanks very much for the sunny vibes, really required ☺️. The anima / animus theory sounds really interesting. Perhaps it applies somehow to me also. Have not gone into the psychological reasons for LE, yet.
I am glad that you are able to manage your panic attacks.
Rooting for you to get through this.
@ABCD
Just saw a huge mistake here: —
In women (➡️ had NO pair-bonding desire here). Narc Mom probably has ruined any gay women’s chance — I ran away from female glimmer in a rocket speed, probably in my next life as well!
I only stumbled into LwL a month ago and still try to get through more relevant blogs. For Anima/Animus and other conceptions in Jungian theories and the related psycho-system analysis, I have been exploring for less than five months, because I thought Individuation process could help me discover more who I was and am inside, and why I “suffered” so much since childhood (from cptsd and limerence, without knowing the term for the latter).
With so much newly gained knowledge, insights, my increased workout/meditations, and chatting with fellow limerents like you, I feel better and readier to go back to the “battle ground” — fighting with my own unpredictable feelings.
Sensing you as a young professional woman, I was even suggesting you to try dance-workout and opera arias (my ex-father-in-law loves opera)…😀 Now, you have one feedback to Anima aspects in your Self!
💪
@Snowphoenix
Thanks for the clarification. I think its fascinating how our past experiences shape our present behaviours. As you mentioned, trying to figure out the psychological reason(s) for LE, seems to be another tool that we can use, besides exercise and mindfulness. This site is a huge help too.
Dance workout does not sound too bad 🙂
Just curious – do you need to see LO a lot?
@ABCD
I don’t know if I can use word “need” to describe my subconscious desire for LO. I wanted to see him for sure, and was more than magnetically/instinctually drawn to him. I tried to bump into him or stopped by with all kinds of excuses: playing dumb asking cultural questions I had already learned about, asking his help for my outgoing correspondence needed for grammar and usage proof; asked about his family, or simply dropped a bit of ethnic, sweat snacks…. LE could make one an“idiot”, but a cute one nonetheless (speaking as LO).
When LO was out of sight, my fantasy would fly without limit, which could feed my “dopamine fix”. Therefore, I didn’t “need” to see him. LO was just an external fuse for my internal muse, to live my days and nights with giddiness or contentment.
My logical mind rarely expected much from the unavailable LO, so I suffered little of LE’s cravings, except abandonment melange (caused by my cptsd) . Whatever LO has felt for me can NOT, will NOT change the end, why painfully need to know?
But my creative mind somehow conjured up (in the early stage) a Phantom with LO’s physical features. Like Pygmalion’s fair lady, I gave the Phantom all personality, tastes, thoughts, emotions, etc.I wanted him to have, and interacted with him in idealized ways in my fantasies. Who is there to refute such a POWERFUL imagination? (He sensed once and was offended mildly).
After the Phantom’s birth, the realistic LO became increasingly disappointing over years. Yet, I still wanted to see him for that sparky fuse.
@Snowphoenix.
I hear you. We keep replaying past LO interactions in our mind, to get the dopamine rush, some really heady stuff. I used to do that a lot, not so much now. Would like to think this means progression in the whole LE. However, it seems far from over (if only!). Trying to take it one day at a time with as much focus as is possible.
The phantom theory sounds pretty interesting. May give it a try.
@ABCD
Actually, past LOs flash in and out of mind with little emotional disturbance, especially after the matters are intellectualized. They are like still, fading images on a large canvas of one’s life. Memories are pulled in to compare with current LO; we all subjectively compare human beings regardless in LE or not.
To me, remembering, organizing and writing those experiences down, sharing (never dared to dream before) them with limerent “ghosts” on the same unchosen path, tremendously help clear my muddled mind, understand the commonality in my LEs, and release the repressed sadness and guilt. I’m truly benefiting from a writing therapy — even if just one “ghost” (Dr L or the site monitor) reads it, the effect is achieved.
However, I realize that my OCD rumination is not just limited to LOs/LEs, but also in the scribbling itself — an object/matter, which supplies that “dopamine fix”, naturally serving as a form of transference. Does it “prove” or indicate limerent is actually in “love” with our own mind and its imagination? I wonder if this sleepless tendency is neurologically linked to a specific area in brain.
Also, I have (almost fully) stopped “incriminating” my limerent passion and its blind target on unavailable LO. To unrequitedly love another human being, regardless barriers and flaws, is deeply gratifying. I am mostly the one who desires “to love/desire” more than “to be loved/desired” (despite cPTSD), because this love resides in my mind, and I can manage its actions; In the period without it, I felt like a true zombie. With LOs or anyone else, I am ALL “out of control” even in a lusty embrace — during SEs, do we know SO’s true mind, is our own truly present with loving SO? …
Anyway, I have increasing joyful smiles on my face and peace inside my chest… my gratitude to the site.
Everyone is carrying a Pygmalion within in some form; evoke his power, one day at a time…
👁️🔥
@Speedwagon.
Thanks for the advice, it’s super useful.
How did your office event go, how are you doing.
It went fine and mostly how I imagined. I basically said Hi and bye to LOs SO and nothing in between. Good thing is LO and SO showed no PDA which was a concern of mine. I made it thru unscathed but did have some greater rumination last night just because it was a different setting, new context to see LO in.
I did talk quite a bit with another employee and her SO who I like a lot. In some regards I feel like LO notices I am steering clear of her and my limerent brain wants to think she is affected by this, but my rational brain says she is probably indifferent.
@Nisor, Speedwagon, ABCD, Snowphoenix, MJ.
Thanks for the wishes, lots of strength to you too.
I am male, and at this point of time, LO interaction, even without speaking to each other is a huge challenge. The anxiety that builds up prior to the interaction (if it is known beforehand), during the interaction, and post interaction, all three stages of the process are extremely painful and cause immense grief. Its like you ask yourself – what did I do to deserve feeling like this.
Having said that, I am encouraged by other fellow limerents, such as Adam and Speedwagon, who are showing a lot of resolve and determination in their LO interactions.
ABCD,
I feel those feelings of grief quite often. Even if I’m just seeing LO get out her car to go into work, I will get emotional and then sad because I feel like it could be forever before I see her again. And I constantly pray about it, saying I didn’t ask for these feelings. Fix this God because it’s really the last thing I needed right now.
@MJ.
I know the feeling, it is hard to deal with it. Could you try to pick up a hobby/sport as a distraction from LO. Practising mindfulness also helps. And as others advise, try and strike small talk with LO, the response may provide some clues for you to move ahead in this LE. Hang in there, we are all with you.
Thanks for the suggestions ABCD. About my only hobby anymore is working in my yard. Sometimes I find it therapeutic. I play the piano, but haven’t actually played in years.
@Snowphoenix.
I could not find a reply button, so I am writing at the bottom of this thread. To have LO thoughts without much emotional disturbance, that seems to be my goal, hope I can get there. I am glad that you were able to perform this analysis, and that it has helped you so much in your LE.
@ABCD
I’d feel very disloyal to my once-upon-time intense “love” if ex-LOs — (all reciprocated my love “addiction”, even detrimental to themselves, except 2 Narcs), completely faded in the canvas of my whole life. After all, our small life is very short; every experience colors and enriches the canvas in its unique way. If purposefully (impossible anyway) erase all dark colors, what else would be left in the canvas? – No contrast, how boring!! What am I going to reminisce on my death bed?
The only task is to set the canvas in distance, little by litter, day in and day out. Time heals, every limerent here will get to that emotional equilibrium with smiles, while looking at LOs in mind, heart, and spirit….
This mentality makes it incredibly hard to continue my current LC/NC, because I worry I’d hurt Sensor LO’s heart, which my limerence brain still believes reciprocated my mine in the 1st four years, and then changed. Despite having suffered tremendously, 65% empathic me still worries about hurting others’ heart, and 35% narc me (child) loudly claims he “owed” and betrayed me, although I am not his SO! How crazy and idiotic a limerent brain could be! 😇
I went two-week depression for platonic LO #4.5 (on the other side of the Pacific); couldn’t help get a soft-knee while facing sadness or emotional tragedies of reality….
@Snowphoenix.
Its great how well you put your thoughts into words, really awesome. Speaking of emotional equilibrium (love the term), mine seems to be improving now a bit, hope it continues to get better. I am aware that there will be occasional setbacks, but that I should not be deterred by those, and continue to push forward.
I am also going on in my NC/LC process, get the feeling that LO has pulled back, probably for the better as both of us have SOs. Sometimes I wonder whether the pull back is due to less reciprocation from my side. So like you, I also want to reach out to LO, rather than going cold turkey. I wish there was a way to have normal interaction with LO. However, is there a way to have a stable/normal interaction with LO, given the intensity of emotions involved? Does not feel like it at the moment, maybe there will be, who knows.
@ABCD
I believe everyone coming to and staying in LwL is trying to find an individually effective way to tone down intensity of LE. With my understanding improved, OCD/LE target shifted, and physical & spiritual workouts increased, I hope my intensity has been reduced, which need to test out, starting tomorrow. 😨 I even worry LO would pull off a NC on me as I have dreamed 2 weeks ago, or my limerent eyes would perceive a subtle slight or ignorance from mere politeness & courtesy, although I know I can handle that abandonment melange trigger better nowadays.
Your situation sounds much tougher with 2 SO involved, and I think your LC is very humane. Despite my relapsed (narc) anger or jealousy, I will not go the 4th round of harsh NC — seeing others “sufferings”, even if perceived, is very painful, more than LE’s low in me — it always fades away!. The previous 3 NC hurt myself more when I saw the sad and “lost” (his word) expressions on LO’s sweet, soft face… If DrL tries to advise me otherwise, I’ll send him Qi/Ki, making him sing and dance on his head! (Just kidding)
LwL’s aim is not to help us emotionally kill our LOs — they’re a triggering “bystanders” to limerents’ addiction tendencies. The enemy is our own “limerence” — NOT even our adorable limerent nature. In a “peaceful” time, one’s biggest enemy is always oneself.
I continue sending you supportive vibe, hang in there strong and deeply caring! LE will calm down soon or later.
“LwL’s aim is not to help us emotionally kill our LOs — they’re a triggering “bystanders” to limerents’ addiction tendencies. The enemy is our own “limerence” — NOT even our adorable limerent nature.”
Snowphoenix
When I think of LO as a victim of my limerence as much as my wife it helps me put it all in a better perspective, as an almost illness as oppose to an “event”. I contracted limerence for this woman for a reason. I was exposed to something, like when you get the flu. What was it about her? Why was there a glimmer for her?
When I think of limerence, and all of those involved, as victims, than it becomes somewhat, a little at a time, easier to emotionally disconnect from it and her. She and others involved are the collateral damage of my mid life. The uncertainties that I have about myself and my life up to this point. And so I ended up dragging the people that I care about through those life uncertainties.
I lost someone amazing that could have been a lasting friendship if I could have kept my head on straight. I damaged my relationship with my wife. My sons don’t see me the same, whether they vocally admit it or not. I think our youngest is especially quiet about it all. He is very much a mamma’s boy. I think he judges me the most harshly because I hurt his mother.
If I can leave this at the bottom of the ocean, as Nisor so often tells me to do, than maybe I will be completely free and can insure that this doesn’t happen again. I don’t think, I, my wife or our marriage would stand another episode. I need to put this thing out to pasture.
“When I think of LO as a victim of my limerence as much as my wife it helps me put it all in a better perspective” @Adam
It’s easier to view LO as a victim if they’re a good LO with some flaws. But when they’re Narc (capital N for -ist) or a Manipulative Sensor LO, it’s hard even just to see them as a “bystander”, because they keep hoovering us limerents back round and round for their needed fuel supply.
Of course, I’m not trying to excuse my own LE vulnerability that could be easily triggered off at a low point of life. I’m willing to act like a female-hunchback, but LO has to be a male-Esmeralda — personality wise. To tolerate or forgive Narc LO’s Behaviors, helpless or schemed, would be adding salt to our LE wound. The most effective weapon against Narc, LO or not (had Narc gf, just as horrible), is 120% No Contact.
I’m so sorry to hear the consequence of your LE, that must be a heavy burden. I believe as time passes and kids grow, your wife and they WILL surely understand and forgive you. LE is NOT what we CHOSE to be in, as you say, it’s a disease fallen on us — a really chemical addiction. Victims of chemical substances abuser did not choose to be one, most of them, if not all, have underline psychological issues.
Oh, that bloody, celestial glimmer! I intuitively sense and logically agree with that it’s from our human genetic/genomic instinct, no Gods/Goddesses of any kind can do anything about it. A retrospective fact here: I did not glimmer at LO #3, #5, #6. — #3 (a distance cousin), #6 were text-book Narc; #5 is HSP asexual who did not glimmer at me either. (we trauma-bonded as FWB for 2 more times, still no Glimmer could be cultivated from either sides.) The glimmer is truly mystical and elusive, at least in my case.
So, please don’t be too hard on yourself.
Hi ABCD , Snow
“Is there a way to have a stable/ normal interaction with LO, given the intensity of emotions involved?”
If anyone has the answer, please share.
Snow: “…everyone coming to and staying in LwL is trying to find an individually effective way to tone down intensity of LE… LwL’s aim is not to help us emotionally kill out LOs..”
Ask yourselves, do you really want to emotionally kill SOS? Is it a danger in your life and your mental health? Or do you like the sweet suffering it brings to your life?Everyone wants to know what’s ahead along the road if you maintain Lo in your life. You know you’re living a double life, and living one life is hard enough, but Los brings so much satisfaction, a new meaning to your life, such and excitement, you cannot let go. Got to choose? Hmmm, it’s so hard, the hardest thing you’ll ever encounter in all of your life.
I believe that ignoring them completely will do the trick. That way you’ll know the truth about them. You have to become stoic and suffer silently, not leaking any feelings or emotions around them. Maybe if you keep the ignore-them attitude for a long time, either they
react positively towards you or feel relieved from you, this way, in any event, I hope you realize what’s up and act accordingly. If lo behaves dismissive then you know for sure where you’re standing… swallow your pride and as much as it hurts you, move on, but persevere on the ignore-them attitude. Hold on to it. After awhile you become numb. The games limerents have to play to stay sane!
Sending love ❤️ to all limerents.
@Nisor,
“LwL is trying to find an individually effective way to tone down intensity of LE… LwL’s aim is not to help us emotionally kill our LOs..”
“Ask yourselves, do you really want to emotionally kill SOS? Is it a danger in your life and your mental health? Or do you like the sweet suffering it brings to your life?”
You mean kill LO? I DEFINITELY do NOT want to emotional kill LO. Not responding or reciprocating our LE cravings is not a CRIME. LO himself is not a danger in one’s life and mental health; it’s limerent’s CRAVING for LO’s reciprocation for our affection. In my case, LO was/is an external fuse, inspiring my internal muse — the Phantom, for learning new, exploring my Self, creating, and sweeting my melancholy about the unfair or imperfect world.
“Everyone wants to know what’s ahead along the road if you maintain Lo in your life. “
I’m not sure if I belong to your “everyone” list. I know what’s ahead in a short or long run — LO is UNAVAILABLE, so I make effort to to stay here and now, enjoy what I have in front of me, one minute at time — like I fully enjoyed LO’s chitchat this morning without any anticipation. He’s an “Esmeralda” to me, a “Quasimodo”.
“You know you’re living a double life, and living one life is hard enough, but Los brings so much satisfaction, a new meaning to your life, such and excitement, you cannot let go. “
A double life? Not in my situation w/o SO (lovers excluded). We limerents here are learning how to better appreciat the “satisfaction” “new meaning” “excitement” LO brings to our life, without desperately grasp LOs as if we cannot survive with them. We CAN!
“Got to choose? Hmmm, it’s so hard, the hardest thing you’ll ever encounter in all of your life.”
If you have a SO, it could be, not necessarily, “the hardest thing” to choose between LO and SO. If available LO doesn’t care about your affections, then you’re not given any choices.
“I believe that ignoring them completely will do the trick. That way you’ll know the truth about them. “
Hmmm….? With a total NC, one cannot even hear, see or read what LO says or does, then what kind of “truth” one could know about them?
“You have to become stoic and suffer silently, not leaking any feelings or emotions around them. “
How “around them” is considered NO Contact? Being Stoic to me means do not REACT to how others ACT (eg. in Sammy’s case: ignore bullies, bullies would leave him alone. Then he got less bullied. ) Hasn’t every limerent “suffered silently” enough, to the point we all came here to safely express our sorrows and woes?
“Maybe if you keep the ignore-them attitude for a long time, either they react positively towards you or feel relieved from you, this way, in any event, I hope you realize what’s up and act accordingly. “
So NC — “ignore-them attitude”, is to “stimulate” or “poke” LO’s actions and reactions, instead of asking them directly for an answer, or leaving them alone and just focusing on reducing the intensity of LE craving?
How do we know LO “feel relieved from “us? By words, actions, ambivalent attitudes? “….act accordingly.” — let LO’s (re)actions tie an invisible string on our neck, and then “pull and push” according to LO’s whims?
“If lo behaves dismissive then you know for sure where you’re standing”
“Know for sure” my own standing based on others behaviors? How do we distinguish between actual and perceived “dismissive”? Would LO’s standing make differences in my life? 🧐 Love me or hate me, LO is still unavailable, Period!
“swallow your pride and as much as it hurts you, move on, but persevere on the ignore-them attitude. “
What kind of “Pride” do you mean here? My pride —
In a relationship or friendship:
1. I will give more than take; but I will not allow anyone just to take and take without giving or giving just crumbs.
2. I will never BEG affection from anyone.
3. I will not let even an Olympian God-LO treat me as a Limerent Pet or a side- chick.
4. I strive to act like a female Quasimodo to a worthy male Esmeralda.
“Hold on to it. After awhile you become numb. The games limerents have to play to stay sane!”
Not just “stay sane”, I want to invigoratingly dance and “fly” day and night, w/o LO’s existence!
Dr.L: Is LwL aiming to help limerents feel “numb” in order to “stay sane”?? 😳 If you hint a tiny bit of “YES”, I will run for the hills….🏃🏻♀️
@ABCD
On the first day of returning to work, I chatted with LO #7 outside and inside our shared lounge. I could have “run away” before he spotted and agreed me; but was too curious to let the opportunity go — to check my own progress of healing limerence in the past 40 days.
No glimmer, bodily twitch, inquisitive look, lukewarm politeness or unknown tension from his side, neither from mine — I was making tea while he was watching at door, no one else was around. No rabbit jumping inside me, as if was just catching up with an old friend. He briefly asked me how my summer was, during which I also suddenly pulled off NC in texting (over 2 months before) without a word of explanation. I answered with a smile and excitement inside, “Very good”, which is a truth.
We greeted briefly again in the hallway (dreamed about it hundreds of times) as I was leaving the building with another colleague, all courtesy. On the way home, I asked myself: what did I see in this man? (He dressed down, looking humble, warm, attentive, at ease w/ a bit weary due to an international trip with his wife and daughters). I was semi-secretly limerent for this guy for 6 years?? 🧐 — What a surreal, mind-boggling concept? 😳
Dr L: I tried my best to observe how my body, mind, and soul had acted and reacted during those 10-15 minutes of the interaction — no time to send Qi of any kind. Everything seemed to be running natural and smooth — focused right then and there! All what happened during the previous 6 years seemed to be already in the distance of the canvas.
Now, I’m just calm, gratified, and deeply joyful, no giddiness….🧘♂️. Thanks for everyone’s caring, questioning, discussing & debating (help clear my mind), and the featured blog articles!
Typo: before he spotted and greeted me;
Snow, sorry, I wasn’t thinking of you when I typed that post. I was merely speculating about limerents that have SOS and work together with Los that don’t reciprocate, but still have to deal with them daily. Each one has a different situation. Don’t take things to heart , I didn’t mean to upset you or anybody in the LwL community. Take care. 💪🏽
@Nisor,
Thank you for thoughtful explanation! Maybe as a non-native speaker, it’s a bit hard for me to distinguish personal and collective “you”. I try hard avoid using the 2nd pronoun, “you” which sounds liking reprimanding, reminding me those harsh k-12 teachers. Also I prefer using “one” instead of “everyone”; I can only speak for MYSELF.
No, I’m not upset, although I could sound like my feisty Granny while being “innocently” provoked. To respond any messages here only helps me understand myself better, affirm some cloudy beliefs and standing, and express them in much organized fashion, which increases self-confidence and helps “reprogram” my often jumbo-mambo limerence brain. So thank you for your challenging advices, even if they do not quite apply to my case. 😀
I hope you are feeling better and better, and getting stronger and stronger! 🙏
@Snowphoenix. I am glad that you had a courteous interaction with LO, that’s really great. You are making excellent progress. I also seem to be making steady progress, hope to have similar interaction as yours in the future with LO, if we cross paths.
Hi MJ. Doing yard work sounds good, I used to enjoy that as well. Playing a musical instrument sounds like a great way to channel the LE. Playing sports seems to help quite a lot. Perhaps the physical activity releases good chemicals. LO thoughts still intrude every now and then, leading to sadness. Maybe this is the new normal, and they never go away, who knows.
Correction: to kill LOs not sos.
Snow. No harm done.
I’m glad things went great for you at work today. What a relief you must feel eh. I’m ok. Thanks. We keep on trying and enjoying life as much as we can. Waiting for autumn to go for long walks and extrovert as much as possible. It’s been hot in Europe this year, too hot for me. This will also pass.. have a good rest and sweet dreams wherever you’re. 🌹
@Nisor.
I could find a reply link to your post, so I am writing here. I really feel that NC is working well. Now I am getting to a point where I am not thinking too much about LO, the feelings seem more manageable. Hope that this continues into the future as well. What will happen if there are future interactions with LO? Will LO ignore me? Will we have courteous conversation? I think I am getting to a point where it does not really matter, whichever way it pans out is fine.
ABCD, hi
I’m glad you’re not letting lo
to intrude in your mind so much as before. I think with time it lessens more and more if you don’t entertain the ruminations. I had ten months I could not at will stop them. But after ten months I have much more control. Of course it would be a different story if I had to face Lo daily or even once in a while. It’s heart breaking seeing your lo and not being able to tell them how you feel and hug them and share. What a tragedy! It’s a test of the emotions. I definitely would not be able to take it, probably leave the job or location. Wouldn’t be able to put up with the suffering. That’s how strong my feelings are. But, I suppose if one have no other choice than to stay, one would somehow develop coping strategies…
Can you imagine dreading the future interactions with lo? What does that do to your mental health? The doubts about yourself. The fear? Cannot begin to imagine it! Think that lo is just another co-worker, be stubborn in that thought and go face them. The only thing bad that could happen is that you act awkward, and who cares? You be yourself, calm and collected, if that even possible. Darned limerence.
Wishing you the best always. ☘️
@Nisor.
Thanks a lot for your support, really means a lot. I seem to be at the stage where I do not get much dopamine highs when I think about LO. It feels much better than before, am able to concentrate better at everything. So, it looks like the LE is wearing out. It is heartening to hear about Snowphoenix’s interaction with LO, how it was very controlled, and not heavy. Hope it goes a similar way for me as well. All the best to you.