Mutual limerence is a topic that often pops up in the comments section, and in my email inbox. Some describe it as a unicorn scenario, others describe it as a curse. Many of the people who contact me want to know if limerence is always bad, if limerent objects are always suspect, and if a limerent relationship can never succeed because it’s built on a dysfunctional foundation. Others wonder if a relationship that doesn’t start with limerence will always feel second-rate.
Today I answer these questions once and for all, and settle the issue entirely.
Ha ha. Only joking.
I’m going to tell you a story, instead.
Catching the unicorn
I can speak with some authority on this issue, as my wife and I were limerent for each other when we met in our early twenties. We are still together and happily married in our late forties.
We first met at a reception in London when I saw her waiting in the line for the refreshments after a keynote speech, and immediately felt the glimmer. Obviously, I thought she was attractive but – critically – she was attractive in that peculiar, individual, inimitable way that ignited the pilot light on my limerence furnace.
By chance, I bumped into her during the mingling session (agony for a young introvert), and to my delight found her confident, funny and easy to talk to. In fact, we ended up talking a lot, and then when it was time for me to leave and catch a train home, she offered to come with me as she was going to the same station. In time, I discovered that this claim was a lie, and in fact she was going out of her way to get a bit more chatting time in. She had felt the glimmer too.
Ecstatic union
After that first meeting, we arranged to meet again, and being British that meant going to the pub.
Initially, it was in a social group as we were both adapting to life in London as graduate students, but it soon transitioned to dating and then getting together. The more we got to know each other, the stronger my limerence got. She absolutely fitted my “limerence avatar” to perfection.
We moved fast, carried on a tide of limerent excitement. We moved in together within a few months and entangled our lives into blissful union. At no point in this giddy ride did either of us seriously examine the roots of our feelings, question the wisdom of our choices, or slow down. All I can remember, in terms of anxieties, is worrying that she would lose her feelings for me.
And eventually she did.
Limerence fades
In a previous post, I wrote about the phases of limerence and how agonies can erupt when two mutually limerent people go through the phases at a different rate. Crucially, if one of the couple enters the “deterioration” phase faster than the other, it causes panic.
Our relationship hit a critical point about a year in, when my wife (girlfriend, then) began to lose her limerent infatuation and confront the questions that we’d been ignoring in our mutual bliss. Is this forever now? Was it a mistake to entangle our lives so quickly? What if some of those other interesting men in the world would be a better partner? Maybe I should have some more fun before I settle down?
The biggest factor in our favour at this point was honesty. I could tell something was wrong, she admitted it without try to gaslight me, and we had to confront reality together.
What is love?
For two people who had always taken limerence to be the manifestation of romantic love, this fading seemed like an existential crisis. Surely real love should just carry on forever? Any doubts must be a sign you are no longer “in love” with the person. You shouldn’t have to build an intellectual case for why staying together is the sensible thing to do – that must mean you are settling for a relationship of convenience.
As I was still in limerence, this period was especially taxing. I was desperate to hold things together. Fortunately, I also had a fairly strong sense of self and an otherwise stable attachment style, so despite the anxiety, I was reconciled to the fact that if she left, I would survive.
So, we discussed our fears, insecurities and understanding of what love is and should be, and kept motoring on.
There were a lot of positives. The healthier forms of love – bonding, intimacy, affection, care, fun – were all still there, it was just the sugar rush of infatuation that had faded. Memory becomes hazy, but another factor that I suspect helped was that her honest doubts helped accelerate me out of limerence too.
A tipping point came when she admitted to being attracted to someone I found ridiculous. I actually laughed out loud and said, “if you leave me for him, then I’ll have no regrets!” That turned out to be a crucial moment where I realised I was no longer desperate, we were back on equal footing, and whatever choice we made would be sound.
In the end, we transitioned into a new phase of our relationship, which was built on much sturdier foundations than limerent thrills. I’m also glad we figured it all out before we got married.
What is limerence?
It was the re-emergence of limerence after years of happy marriage that finally taught me what that wild mental state of infatuation was really all about. Becoming limerent when not single, not seeking a partner, not looking for love, was a shock – a delicious, secret, euphoric, guilty shock. I realised for the first time that infatuation could be uncoupled from deliberate pursuit of romance.
That’s when I started researching infatuation, discovered Tennov’s work on limerence, related it to my own understanding of neuroscience, and recognised the explanatory power of the altered state of mind concept.
Up until that point, I had uncritically assumed that limerence is just what love feels like, and it happens when you meet someone extra special. While that’s not wrong, it is definitely incomplete, and misses the factors that can nudge you into that altered state of mind and reinforce it until person addiction sets in. And that, ironically, is more likely to happen in the presence of barriers and uncertainty.
What can we learn from this tale of mutual limerence?
Looking back now, I can see that we really did hit the unicorn jackpot. That two limerents could meet and feel mutual limerence was already a fluke; that we also managed to navigate the post-deterioration phase successfully and transition into affectional bonding was another long shot.
There are practical ways to improve those odds, of course. Really, the deciding factor in our successful transition into long-term love was honest communication, mutual respect, and a willingness to have uncomfortable conversations rather than pretend everything was fine (which leads inevitably to the point where your relationship becomes defined by pretence).
Lastly, we met when we were both single, free to act, and had stable attachment styles.
Outside of those conditions, the chances of mutual limerence resulting in long-term happiness are undeniably reduced. If either of you are unavailable, if you become limerent for people of poor character, if you have attachment problems to resolve, if you have already started an affair – if you are incompatible for any of the many complex and colourful reasons that humans can create – then limerence will be more of a curse than a blessing.
So, in conclusion, long-term love after mutual limerence is possible, but it depends on factors that are totally unrelated to the causes of limerence.
“So, in conclusion, long-term love after mutual limerence is possible, but it depends on factors that are totally unrelated to the causes of limerence.”
Agree, but the factors the Universe would have to line up for it to happen are almost impossible (particuarly after one gets much older than about 30).
1.) You both have to have secure attachment styles and have a history of picking suitable, long-term romantic partners through the haze of early infatuation (a lot of us don’t);
2.) You have to be both be limerent;
3.) You both have to be able and willing to navigate the choppy waters after post-limerence let-down and move into the companionate phase;
4.) You both have to be avaialable and willing to move on your feelings.
@Marcia.
I agree with your four points. You’ve laid out the prerequisites for (successful) mutual limerence very clearly. (Successful = a stable, long-term relationship afterwards).
Interestingly, in her book, Tennov says that some people experience limerence just once in their lifetimes (in youth, presumably) and then never again. I wonder if the limerents in these cases get burnt the first time round, and decide it’s just too much hassle to keep trying? š¤
Tennov also interviewed a number of LOs. Something poignant one LO said: it’s hard being an LO because limerents get their feelings hurt all the time (by the LO). I think that might come down to the difference between passionate longing for someone and affectionate bonding with someone?
Lastly, I think it’s hard being an LO if one didn’t volunteer for the role. Having been someone’s LO myself, I can say it felt a bit like winning first prize in a lottery I didn’t enter. I mean, logically, am I supposed to be happy about winning first prize? A drop-dead gorgeous human being adores me, but now what? Am I meant to stand on my head, and recite the alphabet backwards in ancient Greek? š
I don’t mean to sound snarky. I guess the point I’m trying to make is that if the limerent and the LO (both single, no obstacles) aren’t on the same page emotionally (ready to jump into a relationship that is mutually desired), then the situation can be a little bit weird if the LO ever registers what’s going on.
On the other hand, if the LO in the same situation remains oblivious to the strength of the limerent’s feelings, well, that’s going to be a little bit weird too. The limerent is going to feel as if someone has been telling them porky pies. š
It IS odd being adored by someone who objectively doesn’t know one. I mean, I think a defining feature of limerence is that feelings can go from zero to 100 in a short space of time. To be admired without having really done anything to warrant such admiration can lead to both guilt and imposter syndrome in the LO!!š
Sammy,
“Having been someoneās LO myself”
How do you know you were the LO? I only ask because I can’t definitively say I was ever someone’s LO. I think the only way to know would be to ask a lot of very specific questions about how the person feels about you. And I don’t think, if my LOs had ever asked, I would have given the full explanation because I knew my feelings were veering into Crazy and some of it embarassed me.
I’ve had situations where I could tell the guy had a crush on me or was doing too much to get my attention or keep it once I’d started to lose interest or wouldn’t go away when I broke it off. One hung around, off and on, for years, even after I wouldn’t speak to him or acknowledge his presence. Was he limerent or did he have a few screws loose? Or was he a narcissist who couldn’t handle rejection? I honestly don’t know.
I have done all the things I mentioned with men (doing too much), and some of those guys probably thought I was head-over-heels for them, but in many cases, I wasn’t. I was interested or maybe crushing, but I wasn’t limerent for a majority of them.
“How do you know you were the LO? I only ask because I canāt definitively say I was ever someoneās LO.”
@Marcia.
Well, full disclosure, I don’t know for sure. However, I strongly suspect something strange was going on. It is possible that the girl was only extremely fond of me, and had a very enthusiastic personality. I don’t know if she ever wept tears over me into her pillow at night, or anything like that, so I guess it’s very hard to say.
This girl kept looking at me, like she was trying to read me. She once assumed I was mad at her when I only had a neutral expression on my face. She talked about me very enthusiastically to friends, so much so that everyone assumed we were already a couple.
Boys approached me and wanted to give me high-fives. (For what I don’t know). My closest male friends accused me to “being a dark horse”. (I was “successful with women” in their eyes, and they never thought I had that attribute in me, probably because I didn’t/don’t!). One female friend approached me, and said with a great deal of confusion: “I didn’t know you and so-and-so were close.” Then, So-and-So herself piped up and said: “Oh yes. Sammy and I go WAAAAY back.” š
I did ask this girl to the school formal – at the prompting of her female friends. I just thought it was a nice thing to do. I think the young woman assumed that we were going to end up in a serious dating relationship and/or married because of that. She never really took my feelings into consideration. I think she assumed that I wanted exactly what she wanted, and that was the end of the matter.
But maybe it wasn’t limerence on her part. She wasn’t ever secretive about her feelings for me, though she did sometimes act insecure. Also, she didn’t seem to have too much trouble moving on when things weren’t going forward with me. So perhaps she wasn’t “obsessed”? Perhaps she just had a very enthusiastically-expressed crush? Maybe I was just one of many suitable potential candidates?
However, because I was going through limerence myself at the time for someone else, and the girl claimed the feelings I expressed in published poetry mirrored her own, that makes me think that maybe she had some limerence-prone tendencies. I don’t think she was at all put off by grand ideas of romance, all-consuming passion, etc.
@Marcia.
Some more thoughts for you. Once my brain starts thinking about something, it doesn’t stop thinking, and it wants to keep thinking things through to the logical/illogical conclusion! Sometimes, I look at the number of comments I’ve left on LwL, and realise it’s going to be hard to deny that I have obsessive tendencies/enjoy ruminating. I just go over the same ground too many times for denials to be convincing. “The gentleman doth protest too much, methinks…” š
But regarding me and this young woman. I think you’ve helped me see she wasn’t limerent for me. She had a crush on me. Totally normal. Totally age-appropriate. Nothing to worry about. She got on my nerves a few times. (Reminds me of my mother, who irrationally adores me). But now I’m back to thinking well of her.
I think a key difference between limerence and a crush is that limerence has an element of secrecy about it, and this young lady was never secretive.
I think, if I wasn’t limerent myself at the time for someone else, I could have had a few honest conversations with her, and we could have reached a mutual understanding satisfactory to both parties. Sometimes, I even wonder what a relationship with her would have been like… (Opportunity knocks but once!) š
I think I could have been the Mr Collins to her Lydia Bennet (the youngest daughter from Pride and Prejudice). We were definitely both as silly as each other, so we were well-matched in that regard. There would be no sensible adults in our household! The bills would never get paid on time. The housework would never get done. But the house would be overflowing with friends and laughter. (I think every successful marriage needs at least one sensible person).
Sammy,
” (I think every successful marriage needs at least one sensible person).”
“A good marriage is one in which only one partner is crazy at a given time.” – Heinz Kohut, “How Analysis Cures” (1984)
“āA good marriage is one in which only one partner is crazy at a given time.ā ā Heinz Kohut, āHow Analysis Curesā (1984)”
@Limerent Emeritus.,
Hahaha! I like it! š
Sammy,
“But regarding me and this young woman. I think youāve helped me see she wasnāt limerent for me.”
I’m not saying she wasn’t. I’ve just read posters on here saying somone was limerent for them, and I always wondered how they knew. Because it can be hard to differentiate between strong interest/crush/limerence.
I mean, two people could be in a relationship and both say they’re “in love,” but that could mean something different to each person.
“I think I could have been the Mr Collins to her Lydia Bennet (the youngest daughter from Pride and Prejudice). ”
Loves me some Mr. Collins. š
“Iām not saying she wasnāt. Iāve just read posters on here saying somone was limerent for them, and I always wondered how they knew. Because it can be hard to differentiate between strong interest/crush/limerence.
I mean, two people could be in a relationship and both say theyāre āin love,ā but that could mean something different to each person.”
@Marcia.
I have reached the conclusion that I have absolutely no ability to “read women” whatsoever. I can read men a little bit (goodness knows how). I can’t read women at all.
For example, I was reading a psychology article recently. This article suggested that a woman is very likely to be flirting with a man if she (a) tilts her head in some weird way, (b) smiles slightly while tilting her head, and (c) does something funny with her eyes. š
Honestly, if a woman looked at me with this face, I wouldn’t pick up on it. And if I did pick up on it, I would have no idea what it means…
In other words, if a woman wants to flirt with me, she’s much better off writing me a letter and spelling out her feelings very clearly. š
I have also come to the conclusion that I am completely blind to one emotion in particular expressed by women. I absolutely 100% cannot pick up on female anger. As far as my brain is concerned, women are never angry because my brain doesn’t register anger in females. (My brain recognises anger in males to a limited extent – mostly in non-interpersonal situations. I.e. a man is angry because the computer doesn’t work or he’s hit his thumb with a hammer).
I was watching some trashy reality TV with my older sister. She could tell right away that the female star of the show was angry about something. I couldn’t tell the female star was angry. I was like, “Oh, look. Such luminous skin! Such marvellous cheekbones! Such pretty make-up! What do you mean she’s angry?” š
I was listening to music with my younger sister. She told me she could hear anger in Sinead O’Connor’s voice when the Irish singer belts out “Nothing Compares 2 U”. Again, no anger recognition in Sammy’s brain. My younger sister also describes herself an “an angry woman” and think women are more likely to buy music by female artists when the female artist expresses anger in works, or at least something more complicated than in-your-face sexuality.
Was my mother’s so-called “hysteria” some kind of repressed anger that even she didn’t understand? Do social rules make it very hard for human women to express anger in a direct, straightforward way, especially with males, but also to some extent with other women? Are women so busy avoiding socially-inappropriate displays of anger they stop communicating effectively in relationships? š¤
I feel that if women aren’t “allowed” to be angry, women are also not able to be truly happy in their relationships with men. But no man wants to hear that a woman, or his woman specifically, is angry, because such anger is too threatening to his delicate ego/hard-won sense of masculine autonomy. If excessive emotional sensitivity is a taboo for straight men, overt anger is a taboo for straight women. š
Sammy,
“I feel that if women arenāt āallowedā to be angry, women are also not able to be truly happy in their relationships with men. But no man wants to hear that a woman, or his woman specifically, is angry, because such anger is too threatening to his delicate ego/hard-won sense of masculine autonomy. If excessive emotional sensitivity is a taboo for straight men, overt anger is a taboo for straight women. š”
I disagree with this.
I don’t think the overt expression of anger is taboo for women. Like most other things, expressing anger could come with risk.
Anger is another interesting concept. There are times when anger is the appropriate response, as in when you’re being mistreated, abused, or insulted. It usually isn’t the emotion itself that causes problems, it’s the expression of anger that causes problems. In an abusive relationship, expressing anger is likely to bring on more abuse. In an healthy, non-abusive relationship, appropriately expressed anger can serve as the beginning of making things better. When appropriate, the ability to feel and appropriately express anger is a healthy trait. It shows that you value yourself.
And, if the woman is an abuser in a relationship, a man expressing anger can suffer the same consequences.
People who can’t or won’t express anger tend to become Passive-Aggressive. They fight a guerilla war against their oppressor. Those can go on for decades. If you don’t understand and can identify Passive-Aggressive behavior, you can miss a lot. I grew up in a Passive-Aggressive environment and it’s rampant in the military.
When LO #2 and I were together, she said, “You spin up faster than anyone I’ve ever been with. But, you don’t stay angry. You let it out and 10 minutes later, it’s like it never happened. I let things fester and build.” In the 5 years we crossed paths, LO #2 only raised her voice to me once. One therapist said that LO #2 was afraid of me. Not in the physically or emotionally abusive sense but in the sense of I would only put up with so much of her crap and if she went too far out of line, I’d take off on her.
LO #2 could be a Passive-Aggressive Petulant. At first it bothered me and I’d try to figure out what I’d done wrong and apologize for it. After awhile, I figure out it was a pattern and eventually she’d tell me what transgression I’d committed. Her record was 6 weeks before bringing up some minor offense which really wasn’t one. I asked if that was the best she could come up with and she needed to play it before the statute of limitations ran out.
I think it was Schreiber that said that everybody is PA at times. https://sharischreiber.com/whos-doing-your-dirty-work/
With what I knew about Passive-Aggressive behavior, LO #2 didn’t stand a chance against me and she knew it. Neither does my wife.
I don’t remember if it was LO #2 or my wife but we were talking about anger. I her that she’d never seen me really angry. Her response was, “I don’t think I’ve ever seen you as angry as I think you could be.”
My wife has no problem being angry. She had problems expressing that anger. Early in our marriage, I pissed her off. She picked up a coffee cup and wound up. I told her that if that cup landed anywhere but where she picked it up from, the marriage was over. She put it down and in 30 years, she’s never picked up another one. She later asked if I was serious when I said it. I told her damn straight. I saw my mother put a coffee cup through a kitchen window aiming at my father’s head. I’d never put up with that.
I don’t think the overt expression of anger is taboo for women. Like most other things, expressing anger could come with risk.
“I have reached the conclusion that I have absolutely no ability to āread womenā whatsoever. I can read men a little bit (goodness knows how). I canāt read women at all.”
Maybe that is becuase you foster the false belief that women are a different species to men rather than being pretty much the same.
I had this exact same type of experience… Except when I tried to confront her/ talk about honesty…
She refused to admit certain things, except that something was wrong and she didn’t know what we wanted….
We both failed here. We failed to show absolute confidence in the situation and expected the other party instead to show strength… She gaslighted me, sent some nudes to make me jealous after breaking up with me….
And then cut me off entirely as I reacted poorly to this, caught knee-deep in the panic of a deteriorating limerance.
It’s been 5 years. I still can’t get my mind off of her… Except I can.
For me, it had the potential to progress into Love, and so I allowed this to change me. It entirely turned my Life around and made me into a new man…
But she wasn’t around to see this.
And instead of accepting my Love, she now rejects this out of Fear and not wanting to fail again, some angst/resentment, and in general not wanting to deal with the situation.
I have removed my feelings of infatuation to find Real Love behind them..
And I *know* that real True Love, existed on her end As Well, before she gave up on this.
Some things are not worth giving up.
I’m not really sure what to do, or where to go from here. We aren’t talking anymore and she is actually quite hostile now….
Still don’t know what I did to deserve this, other than allow myself to feel the negativity of the situations I was going through while I was in with her.
Maybe she felt I was holding her back?
She wanted to try other options, go off to college, fool around with others, and keep me for the side.
That was not the Love talking. Maybe it was something else, but I know that the Love is still there, potentially.
And worth pursuing.
“love is not enough, girl. I just need more” – lyrics I’m listening to, ironically. This song *came on* as I’m writing this. Quite fitting.
Some things are not worth giving up on. Any suggestions?
Kyle H, hi
If youāre both single, Iād give it a try again. Have a real open conversation, and express your true feelings.
ā Donāt make assumptions. Find the courage to ask questions and express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstanding, sadness and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.ā Miguel Ćngel Ruiz quote)
Good luck. If things donāt work out, at least you know you tried, and move on.
This man needs to read “The Normal Bar” (Northrup, et al, 2014) a book of the results of the largest study ever done on marriage and relationships. Relationships that begin with limerence are much more likely to be successful and remain intimate over the long hall. If they weren’t ever “in love” a couple is much less likely to continue loving each other and much more likely to divorce or breakup. Sorry someone you’re crazy in love with is much more likely to hold your interest in a long term marriage than someone who never made you tingle.
Thanks for sharing your beautiful love story, Dr L.
Mutual limerence is such a hot topic. I think the limerent craves mutual limerence because they feel intensely drawn to their LO and they want their LO to feel intensely drawn to them. But I think most limerents also wouldnāt wish the dark side of limerence on anyone.
What if there is mutual limerence, and that desire to have the other person have intense feelings for you is met, yet the relationship can’t happen due to one or both people being unavailable. So it can’t go anywhere. In this case I wonder if mutual limerence (that can’t be pursued in good conscience) is an even greater curse? Would it be easier if it was just one way?
I donāt think it would be easier with one-way limerence. I work with my LO so NC is not an option, suspect mutual limerence, both of us are unavailable, but our friendship is wonderful. We are unavailable romantically, but available affectionately. Granted it doesnāt live up to the fantasies in my brain, but when does life ever live up to a fantasy. I value the friendship more than wanting romance. The dopamine is decreasing over the years. The yearning doesnāt hurt as much as it used to. I think this is key with any LE. Being actual friends seems to take away the sting a little.
I would. I would wish it on those who need to see this side of things to wake up š
I don’t think I ever experienced mutual limerence though I experienced mutual deep crush. My HS LO was not limerent for me though oddly she would claim that she loved me. But she never really wanted to pursue romantic involvement due to our deep friendship. My college girlfriend LO never seemed limerent for me, though we had a deep romantic relationship for a few years. I was mostly limerent for her during the later part of our dating relationship and very limerent after we broke up for a good 4 years.
The only possible mutual limerence was a short passionate love affair I had with a girl after college. We crushed hard on each other after meeting, were drawn to each other sexually really quick, but she lived far away and was younger and I didn’t really consider her a viable dating option at the time and never pursued a real romantic relationship with her. But she portrays the closest I have been to maybe mutual limerence, though I never had the dark LE experience with her and this all happened while I was limerent for the ex college GF.
I was never limerent for my wife and I don’t think she was limerent for me. I think that is a contributing factor to my current LE.
If my current LO is limerent for me, she is great at repressing it. I think she is non limerent though.
Since discovering what Limerence is and what this LE feels like, I feel as if any relationship I ever had in the past exuded very little signs of how I feel about current LO now. Infact, I can only think of one past gf, that may have been somewhat limerent for me. And I may have been somewhat limerent for her, but it felt nothing like current LE. So imo, current LO is my first and only, true LE.
I know before my now ex wife and I were married, she had a crush on me, but I can’t say if she was infact ever limerent. I know for sure she never glimmered for me, so how do I know if that wasn’t a factor in my eventual divorce from her?
Like what Speedwagon said, if my current LO was ever limerent for me, she was never great at showing it. If it was there, it may have only lasted for about 5 minutes, and then that was a wrap. Whatever happened after or what I didn’t do soured and never came to pass. Now i’m just left with a lot of sadness and a ton of regret. Will be picking up the pieces from this forever it feels like.
“Since discovering what Limerence is and what this LE feels like, I feel as if any relationship I ever had in the past exuded very little signs of how I feel about current LO now. Infact, I can only think of one past gf, that may have been somewhat limerent for me. And I may have been somewhat limerent for her, but it felt nothing like current LE. So imo, current LO is my first and only, true LE.”
@MJ.
I think one of the great delusions of limerence may be “no one’s ever had a (fantasy) relationship as special as mine, and therefore nobody else can relate to what I’m going through. My (fantasy) relationship is too special to be understood by mere mortals, plebs, common folk, regular people, etc, etc. š
Then one comes to a blog like LwL, meets a whole bunch of people who probably think they’re having “more-special-than-average (fantasy) relationships with someone” and realise that the special bond can’t be that special if so many other human beings are claiming the same experience!!
This is why, I think, limerents sometimes like to keep LEs hush-hush. It’s not because limerents are doing anything wrong necessarily; it’s because being upfront about an LE kind of takes the air out of the fantasy balloon. The magical bubble collapses in on inside. The thing that seems so special apparently isn’t so special after all, since it’s an experience shared with a multitude of other humans. Maybe introverts just need to talk more? š
I knew I was always an introvert. Always kind of shy, not always good at relationships. Which may explain why this LE causes me so many up and down feelings.
I found Lwl by accident. I had been watching personality trait videos on YouTube when a video on how to stop obsessing about people came on my feed. Which came to me discovering what limerence was. It was comforting to know I wasn’t alone in this.
Talking about LO hasn’t really diminished how I feel about her. If anything, it’s helpful and a blessing to know I can share with others how emotional this LE situation makes me feel. The euphoric highs and crushing lows. It’s really kind of embarrassing to be 52 years old and admitting I’m a big crybaby over LO when nobody else is around. Just happens.
I feel so attached to LO. Now that she’s not around to work with daily, it feels like the worst breakup. And yet we were never even together. Have I lost my mind or what? That’s why I like being here, so I can share this kind of stuff. Especially with people who “get it”.
This triggered me I think because the most painful part of this LE is that it wasnāt reciprocated and that there is something wrong with me as a woman because he didnāt. That shows that part of LE for me was seeking validation.
LO came along after the death of a parent and during life changes. It felt like he was trying to sweep me off my feet. How I wish I would have listened to the voice in my head that said donāt work for him. Heās too much of a flirt and you will have a problem with it.
I had kind of a revelation this week. I was listening to a music video and felt a glimmer for the lead singer who sort of reminded me of LO. I felt anxious and tense and also I felt sick to my stomach. A not good feeling but I felt drawn to it and wanted to watch it again. I had those feelings with LO too. A constant nervous tension and way too much energy. With my husband I felt butterflies and things but not sick like that.
So in short are there 2 types of limerance? A good kind that can lead to lasting love and a not good kind that is like the sick stomach anxiety type? A type that is so difficult to let go of?
Marcia has a great point with attachment styles as well. I am anxious attachment style. Maybe my LOs trigger that? Just trying to figure this out so it never happens again.
Beth, there is nothing wrong with you. Maybe you have areas where you could improve, we all do. Life would be really boring if we werenāt striving for something so itās good to recognize growth opportunities. But there is nothing wrong with you. Your LO is a man who dabbles in the dark arts. He learned how to create limerence in another person and use it to boost his ego. He probably tells himself that he is doing it as a service to the other person, but it isnāt a service. It is cruel. He used you like a pawn in a game. I am so mad at him. He is doing it to another woman and there is nothing wrong with her either. You got caught up in something yucky and now youāre picking up the pieces. You didnāt deserve it. Anyone in your shoes probably would have reacted similarly if it was their first time encountering something like that. Please donāt be hard on yourself.
Iām sorry you lost your parent. That is hard.
Thank you Lovisa! This really helped me. He is into some strange teachings and I found myself drawn to those teachings as well. Now that I am coming out of my LE, Iām seeing how dangerous those teachings are. He knew so much about it all. I do know I need more hobbies and to get back involved in church again. Weāve had a hard time finding our fit in our community. That was also a factor in the LE. Thanks again!
@Beth 2.
Your commentary really strikes a chord with me, so here are some thoughts…
“… the most painful part of this LE is that it wasnāt reciprocated and that there is something wrong with me as a woman because he didnāt.”
That sort of thinking will result in a great deal of pain I think because you’re personalising the outcome of the infatuation, and you haven’t got control over the outcome.
I.e. if an LO doesn’t reciprocate feelings, it’s not because the limerent isn’t attractive enough, or “enough” in some other way.
Limerence, to me, is like gambling. You can be the nicest, kindest, sweetest, most attractive person in the world. But the majority of the time you won’t win. The odds are stacked against you, and the house always wins. š
“… I felt sick to my stomach. A not good feeling but I felt drawn to it and wanted to watch it again.”
“Feeling sick” has been a symptom of limerence for me, too. Not all the time. Just occasionally. Actually, I only feel sick when I’m on the cusp of leaving the altered state of limerence. It’s like my brain is pulling me back in and saying: “No, no, no. That can’t happen. You must keep obsessing. Your job is to keep obsessing.” š
Maybe the sick feeling is fear of loss?
“So in short are there 2 types of limerance? A good kind that can lead to lasting love and a not good kind that is like the sick stomach anxiety type? A type that is so difficult to let go of?”
My gut feeling and wide reading on the subject would suggest there are indeed two types of limerence. One version, like you say, plays out like a fairytale romance, where there’s just a bit of uncertainly before two interested parties get together.
Then there’s another version of limerence, which tends to be a bit darker, and needs to be managed more carefully. I’ve experienced the second type. However, I don’t regret experiencing the second type. I suspect the second type/darker version comes with lower lows, but also higher highs. If I’m honest with myself, there are certain devastatingly painful emotions I want to experience. Romance-wise, I want agony. I want suffering. I don’t want all hearts and flowers. š
Forgive me if I’m being too logical. I know logic can be irritating to people seeking sympathy. However, I feel logic can snap us out of excessive self-pity. I’m not accusing you of self-pity; I am merely reminding myself not to indulge in self-pity. These days, I try to keep one foot in the world of reason and one foot in the world of emotion. Valuing both reason and emotion helps me stay balanced. š
Thanks Sammy I needed to hear this. I need logic because my feelings and limerence are not logical at all. I should be thankful there was no reciprocation. Iām not available but my brain seems to be very compartmentalized. I also can feel this is not about him but there is something LO represents that I am trying to work out or come to terms with. Thanks again
@Beth 2.
No worries. I’m never sure whether I say the right thing to people or not. Feel free to disregard anything I say that sounds too far-fetched.
I’ve just had another bright idea! Maybe in limerence there’s a good-sick feeling and a bad-sick feeling?
The good-sick feeling is pleasurable nervousness/butterflies that a lot of people associate with romance or crushes or whatever.
The bad-sick feeling, for me at least, is WITHDRAWAL pains.
Maybe I should be happy I’m getting the bad-sick feelings? It means I’m making some kind of progress, whether I want to or not… š
Aaaw, adore your story Dr L!
And agree, limerence is not all bad, it can absolutely have great outcomes if you engage your head at the same time and don’t ignore red flags.
But this blog has left me scratching my head a little… to me this is not limerence but just two people falling in love. By this definition of mutual limerence, I have been mutually limerent 4 times – during the early phase of every adult relationship I have ever had. Each one a blissful union, for while at least. I am not even sure I would bother with a relationship if both myself and partner did not feel this way. Is there a way people fall in-love that does not involve limerence then? I just can’t imagine that.
re: only 5% population are limerents – this does not match up for me either using this definition of limerence. Amongst my peers I would say more than half of them experienced mutual glimmer and limerent feelings with their long term partners when they first got together. But I am the only one of my peer group that experiences this when nowt happens with an LO.
I guess I thought that falling in-love or infatuation leads to one of three outcomes:
1) a relationship (of whatever quality & length)
2) no relationship or infatuation (i.e. moving on)
3) no relationship but becomes limerence (i.e. NOT moving on).
Allie 2 thank you for expressing what I couldnāt put into words. I see the type of limerance people come here for is the one where we canāt move on or it was all in our head etc.
Allie 1, I could not agree more the website is the best in this topic and dr L is one of the most balanced intelligent and unbias person I’ve come across. But 5% I strongly disagree I’ve known alot of ppl in my personal life who fit lims perfectly definitely more then 5% I think it’s an extremely common occurrence it’s just most ppl go thru it but don’t know about it, I believe anyone can go thru it but not everyone does as what triggers lims is different for everyone as it can be extremely particular. I think Limerance is a human thing.
I have the understanding that maybe 50% of people experience some form of limerence in its more common, positive fashion, within the boundaries of a mutual romantic relationship, and only about 5% get caught in the bad limerence, obsessive person addiction that define a lot of the LE here at LwL.
I think 50% is high. I think people meet and get togther and have strong feelings and commit … but is it mutual limerence, at least in the sense I’m thinking? Is it two people who are bordeline obsessed with each other, jump-over-the-cliff, thinking about each other all the time, etc.? I don’t think so. And I’m talking about the good kind of limerence that moves forward and both people are avaialable.
I had an LO with whom I had a serious relationship. He said he was “in love” with me. And I think he was. But our definitions were much different. I know he was entertaining other prospects in case it didn’t work out with me. That’s not my definition of limerence. Limerence is you can’t even think of anyone else. We were on two different pages. I think my experience is much more common than a mutual, Romeo and Juliet scenario.
Yes, I can agree with that. Limerence has to be defined as more than just the “honeymoon” phase of a relationship which a majority of romantic partnerships experience.
“He said he was āin loveā with me. And I think he was. But our definitions were much different. I know he was entertaining other prospects in case it didnāt work out with me.”
Eeech. That is not my definition of “in love” either. Maybe he was a non-limerent (in the Tennov sense, not the non-5% LwL sense) so that was what “in-love” felt like to him.
Listening to the never ending plethora of love songs, romantic books, movies, poetry, etc makes me believe that being neurochemically “in love” is experienced as an altered mental state just like limerence for an awful lot of people. Way way more than 5%.
Maybe there is a continuum of limerent experience rather than it being is or is not limerence?
Allie,
“That is not my definition of āin loveā either. Maybe he was a non-limerent (in the Tennov sense, not the non-5% LwL sense) so that was what āin-loveā felt like to him.”
He was going to be “in love” with whoever he was with, and he was never going to be alone.
“Listening to the never ending plethora of love songs, romantic books, movies, poetry, etc makes me believe that being neurochemically āin loveā is experienced as an altered mental state just like limerence for an awful lot of people. Way way more than 5%.”
I would venture to say that most artisits, writers, musicians are probably limerents.
“Maybe there is a continuum of limerent experience rather than it being is or is not limerence?”
Read the posts on here. A good number of posters weren’t limerent for their SOs. Doesn’t mean they don’t love them or that there wasn’t some kind of early, honeymoon phase, as Speedwagon wrote. But I’m guessing here … it wasn’t balls-to-the-walls limerence.
I’m not implying that a relationship that doesn’t start out with mutual limerence is lesser than. Limerence is just limerence. It doesn’t predict a good, long-term relationship. It predicts nothing other than a lot of fireworks in the beginning. And I would venture to also guess, unless one is very good at picking partners, once those fireworks die down, what’s left can be a bit of a trainwreck. Which is what happend with the LO I mentioned. Trainwreck. Horrible, long-term choice. I didn’t even really like him when the limerence faded.
I was very much in love with my SO when we first met, and thought about her a lot and wanted to spend as much time with her as possible and felt great when I was with her and all that, but I didn’t experience the distressing symptoms like intrusive thoughts, or constant ruminations on our most recent interaction, or re-reading our text messages looking for hidden meanings, or not being able to sleep at night or make it through two paragraphs in a book because of thinking about her, or experiencing wild mood swings based on my perceptions of how she felt or didn’t feel about me. Those are all the things I think of as separating limerence from healthy new-relationship love.
And to me, the difference was that when I met SO, there were no barriers to us getting together, and it was clear from the start that I liked her and she liked me, and we communicated openly about our feelings for each other and saw each other all the time, and pretty quickly progressed through the relationship stages (moving in together within months), and so there were never any frustrations due to barriers, no does-she-or-doesn’t-she ruminations, no hot and cold behavior on her part, or any of those other things that have fueled all the pathological aspects of what I’d consider my limerence experiences.
If SO or me or both of us had been dating someone else when I first met her, and if we’d hit it off just as quickly and been regularly seeing each other socially but unable to consumate our relationship due to barriers, or if she’d been the type to play games and make me always guess how she felt about her, then I’m sure she could have become an LO for me.
All of my other LEs have involved some sort of barriers where I was experiencing strong feelings for someone who was ultimately unattainable, and was missing something in my life at those times that the person seemed capable of filling “if only the circumstances were different”, and the LO was giving me inconsistent behaviors (either because they were just acting like normal friends and the whole LE was just in my own mind, or because, in this most recent case, the LO was fighting her own battle between temptation and integrity), and it’s always been that mix of attraction and desire and connection and frustration and inconsistency that drives all of the rumination and intrusive thoughts and extreme emotional swings that I’d think of as pathological limerence.
“I think 50% is high. I think people meet and get togther and have strong feelings and commit ā¦ but is it mutual limerence, at least in the sense Iām thinking? Is it two people who are bordeline obsessed with each other, jump-over-the-cliff, thinking about each other all the time, etc.? I donāt think so. And Iām talking about the good kind of limerence that moves forward and both people are avaialable.”
@Marcia.
I think, if biology were perfectly fair and rational, then 50% of the human population should be limerent and 50% of the human population should be non-limerent. And the idea is that one limerent person pairs off with one non-limerent person for life. š
But then we would have limerents wanting to run off with other limerents (because they have so much in common!) and non-limerents happily settling down with fellow non-limerents and wondering why that choice isn’t the socially correct one…
I think early limerence and falling in love in a non-limerent way must be similar emotional experiences, so a mixed-response couple (one limerent and one non-limerent) wouldn’t be able to tell that they’re not going through the exact same experience of in-loveness.
I think non-limerent “in-love” feelings start to settle down at the 3-month mark, while the limerent’s feelings are still wanting to soar higher and higher, because of al the feel-good chemicals. I think non-limerents resume strong interest in their everyday lives at the 3-month mark, unlike limerents, who most likely resent the non-limerent partner’s waning “passion” and overall complacency.
I think, for non-limerents, romantic love might start in a softer place and then grow and grow as one gets to know one’s partner better. Non-limerents are much more likely to say: “I just felt comfortable with him/her”.
Limerents might feel peak intensity at the beginning of a romance (i.e. when the couple first gets together) and feel the only place they can go emotionally is down, since they started out on such a high.
@Dr. L
Wow! Powerful stuff! Thank you for sharing from your own life experiences.
“Today I answer these questions once and for all, and settle the issue entirely.”
Definitive answers at last? I almost had a heart attack! š
“We moved fast, carried on a tide of limerent excitement. We moved in together within a few months and entangled our lives into blissful union. At no point in this giddy ride did either of us seriously examine the roots of our feelings, question the wisdom of our choices, or slow down.”
When a young woman was limerent for me, I feel this is exactly where she was coming from, and this is how things would have played out had I gone along with it. I think this is a very neurotypical response to romantic opportunity. Most people don’t really analyse love – at least not initially, or while things are going swimmingly. The feelings are in the foreground for a while, and that’s okay.
“For two people who had always taken limerence to be the manifestation of romantic love, this fading seemed like an existential crisis.”
Even for people in their 20s, I think it shows a certain amount of grace, a certain amount of humility, a certain amount of emotional maturity, to want to keep building the relationship after feelings of bliss have started to fade. So kudos to you and your girlfriend/wife for how you handled things.
“A tipping point came when she admitted to being attracted to someone I found ridiculous.”
Mr Colins from Pride and Prejudice comes to mind for me. He was surely a “ridiculous man”. But Charlotte Lucas was happy to wed him regardless!
“I realised for the first time that infatuation could be uncoupled from deliberate pursuit of romance.”
Love, love, love this point. This sentence is probably the most important one in the entire blog post for me. I wasn’t consciously looking for anything either, least of all a romantic relationship, when limerence struck me out of the blue. Perhaps that’s why it’s taken me so long to try and make sense out of my feelings? š¤
“A tipping point came when she admitted to being attracted to someone I found ridiculous. I actually laughed out loud and said, āif you leave me for him, then Iāll have no regrets!ā
A professional acquaintance introduced me to LO #2. After LO #2 and I split, I would get updates on her when I met with him. I knew she’d gotten married two years after we split up. Her husband went to work for the guy. If she wasn’t with me, I didn’t care who she was with. I moved on. I knew I wasn’t the first relationship LO #2 had. I was at least #5 that I knew about. She was seeing someone less than a month after we split.
About 2 years later, our acquaintance told me that they were getting a divorce. He said LO #2’s husband said it was like a switch flipped in her and he didn’t know what hit him. I told my acquaintance that her husband couldn’t have known what hit him. He hadn’t spent enough time with her in her native environment.
My point is, when I heard it, I got kind of angry with her. It was like, “I spent 4 years on you and this is how you pay me back? All the effort I put into you and you didn’t learn a damn thing!”
So much for my being Henry Higgins. As Eliza Doolittle, LO #2 was a bust, at least at the time. Maybe LO #4 turned out better.
As far as mutual limerence goes, if any of my LOs was limerent for me, I wasn’t aware of it. My wife might have been but I was limerent for her.
Lost in space, I think you would have has all those symptoms with this SO if there wasn’t mutal reciprocation from the start. There was no limerance fuel aka uncertainty.
Allie 1 “Listening to the never ending plethora of love songs, romantic books, movies, poetry, etc makes me believe…” This is an excellent point the foundation of the entire romantic genre is reflective of limerance going back as far as known civilization
I think we all probably know it when someone is mutually attracted to us. But mutually limerent would mean mutually miserable. I know my LO was mutually attracted AND I know there were barriers – I just don’t know if he had intrusive thoughts, that sick to the stomach feeling some people have described that I only ever felt for LO among all the people I have ever been attracted to, crying jags, obsessive thoughts, etc. Most people hide that level of obsession over someone they hardly know because they don’t want to seem creepy. Most of us in fact hope no one knows how insane we have become. If my LO was ever mutually limerent I would expect he would have tried to hide it from me too!
One point Marcia made about “post-limerence let down” made me reflect on how horrible that is. I went through that with my LO. However, recently the biggest barrier was removed. Suddenly LO and I are both suddenly available. But at this point in my dating life I have a choice – between revisiting LO or starting something with a really great person who I am very attracted to (thinking about them a lot, but thankfully not intrusively and on my terms) but it isn’t limerence – I know this because I am not sick to my stomach!!! I am of course tempted by LO, but the post-limerence let down was so awful and left me with such a deep sadness and a bitter aftertaste, that the whole aura around LO for me is generally negative. Despite any lingering glimmer. It almost feels like LO is someone I broke up with, an ex. And I have a choice to go back to an ex or to try something new with someone. I am tending towards letting sleeping dogs lie with LO. They rocked my world. I barely escaped with my sanity intact. The risk is great.
I also have the feeling that I will never recapture those first initial feelings with LO – like we might never have a honeymoon phase even if we got together because we spent all that energy already – alone. At least I feel I exhausted and depleted that. Therefore there would be no ecstatic union, just two people who got over each other once already. I actually think I have a greater chance of joy with this other person than I ever could with LOs.
“But mutually limerent would mean mutually miserable.”
@Haunted Wood.
This observation for me is probably the most troubling thing about limerence.
In the doldrums of limerence, one almost wants one’s beloved to be miserable. Or, alternatively, one might use one’s beloved lack of conspicuous misery as proof of non-limerence and end the attachment.
Of course, some people hide their misery. So I’m talking about a hypothetical LO who doesn’t bother to hide the fact they’re perfectly happy and fulfilled when limerent isn’t around! š
“In the doldrums of limerence, one almost wants oneās beloved to be miserable.”
I don’t think miserable but I did notice that LO over the other (over four years I’ve been here) 6 young ladies that had/have worked there, was in a bad spot in life when I met her. All the other ladies were happily in their marriages with loving and supporting husbands and families. I guess that’s the whole rescue complex again. But I will admit that, even though I genuinely wanted her to get to a better place, LO’s predicaments in life gave me some purpose and satisfaction to help.
Even from a male/female pair-bonding heterosexual standpoint they were all very attractive, accomplished and hard working young women. Any one of them would have made a promising mate. I mean they were all married so that says something. LO just stood out on my radar.
Sammy,
Going back to the whole Pygmalion/Henry Higgins thing of mine.
I never wanted my LOs to be miserable. I wanted them to be grateful.
Toss out the arrogance and narcissism of what I was doing.
I wasn’t trying to fix anybody. I wanted to help them. I could leave them better than I found them [did you read my recent about my “failure” with LO #2?]. I knew in HS that if I ever succeeded in tinkering with them, either I’d lose interest in them or they’d lose interest in me.
Going all numinous, the Glimmer was what made me see the LO as that block of marble I [Pygmalion] would sculpt into a masterpiece.
It makes a way cooler narrative than me being a messed up core-damaged individual with an insecure attachment style defended by Narcissistic props [damned therapists!] But, as Bowlby said, “If it’s true, it’s true.”
I was a real piece of work back then. My wife, LO #2, and one therapist called me arrogant. My wife says that I’ve mellowed a lot but it pops up now and then.
Both LO #2 & LO #4 said that they were grateful to me for things I’d done for them. They used the world.
So, maybe I didn’t fail after all. I didn’t recognize success.
@Limerent Emeritus.
I understand where you and Adam are coming from in terms of helping women, and getting satisfaction from helping. I’m not saying you’re patronising women or anything. I don’t think there’s anything sinister about men wanting to rescue. I think there are many women who genuinely appreciate any male help they receive.
I am also not really bothered by women doing whatever it is women want to do (in terms of their fantasy scripts regarding the less-fair sex). I do think some gender scripts are rooted in nature/biology as much as they are in culture, and as long as the members of the individual couple don’t object, there’s not really a problem…
I’m not “feminist across the board”, in other words. I shy away from strict ideologies. I think context in human interactions is very important. My mum and dad did have a very traditional gender dynamic that worked for them some of the time, maybe even most of the time. What breaks my heart is that it didn’t work for them ALL of the time, since I desperately wanted them to be happy together.
When I talk about misery, I’m more referring to how limerents can oscillate in their moods between despair and euphoria. This oscillation in mood is a kind of “suffering” I suppose. I think limerents sometimes draw comfort from knowing that the LO is going through the same mood oscillations, because that of course would be proof of mutual limerence. (Reciprocation of feelings!)
So when I talk of misery and suffering, I’m not suggesting LOs are weak or inferior or incompetent or unhappy people in general. Nothing like that. I think limerents sometimes would like LOs to suffer purely because of the LO’s imagined hidden infatuation with the limerent. DO you see where I’m coming from? The misery is purely a manifestation/symptom of infatuation (and hopefully mutual infatuation, in the mind of the limerent).
If one’s LO was the most capable person on earth, the limerent would still want LO to feel misery. It’s more along the lines of “Baby, I miss you so much when you’re gone” kind of thing. “Baby, I can’t breathe when you’re away.” “Baby, I don’t know what I’d do if I ever lost you or lost your love.” “Please don’t stop loving me, baby.” All the cliches from popular music.
I don’t know if that makes sense. I hope it does. Limerents don’t want LOs to BE miserable. Limerents want LOs to feel misery in certain circumstances e.g. during prolonged separation. š
People in mutual limerence must feel that the world/societal norms are very cruel for not letting them be together, despite the fact they are so UNHAPPY when they can’t be together, and so HAPPY whenever they get to reunite. It’s about feelings, the relationship, etc. It’s not, “Oh, men are strong and women are weak.” Female limerents want male beloveds to feel “misery in absence” as well.
“I think limerents sometimes would like LOs to suffer purely because of the LOās imagined hidden infatuation with the limerent.”
@Sammy,
I go through this phase now and then. Usually not wanting LO to necessarily suffer outright. Would just like her to feel sorry for me. Because of all the emotion I feel from not seeing her as much anymore. How sad I get from missing her. I often wonder how would she feel if she knew how much I cry over her? Would she believe me? I guess I would hope for some massive change of heart on her end. And then in a perfect world, We’d live happily ever after.
“I often wonder how would she feel if she knew how much I cry over her? Would she believe me? I guess I would hope for some massive change of heart on her end. And then in a perfect world, Weād live happily ever after.”
@MJ.
Yeah, that’s one way to put things. I think maybe for limerents there might be a vague feeling: “the greater the sorrow the greater the love”. Or, alternatively: “He/she who suffers the most is also the one that loves the most.”
But really all this emphasis on sorrow means we’re talking about infatuation rather than an established love relationship.
Very hard to put into words. I’m not sure if I’m saying what I want to say…
I’ll give an example from my life. In my teen years, I went through these periods of crushing sadness as a result of limerence. I didn’t necessarily fantasize about LO seeing me sad or taking pity on me. My fantasies were never that advanced, to be perfectly honest. I’m very imaginative in some ways, and very unimaginative in other ways. The sorrow just seemed to be a natural thing that flowed out of the infatuation. I just thought I had major depression!!
It’s only when I became older and wiser, and gained some perspective, I realised: “Oh, all these things are linked somehow.” I guess what I’m trying to say is that during the most intense parts of limerence, I really had no idea my emotional state was dependent on my LO’s actions. And since my LO and I didn’t have much of a relationship, my mood was dependent on frequency of contact.
In other words, if I saw LO, I felt high; if I didn’t see LO for a while, I felt low. If I had to go a long stretch without seeing LO, I felt very low indeed. To the best of my knowledge, most of my teenage peers weren’t having these strange but very real fluctuations in mood. I didn’t even get my hands on Tennov’s book until I was in my mid-30s and that was by accident in a second-hand bookshop. š
“They realize that the special bond canāt be that special if so many other human beings are claiming the same experience!!”
I have to disagree!
Nah, it is still special.
It is part of the human experience
Haunted Wood,
I really like that name. BTW, I’m MJ.
I can identify greatly with all those limerent feelings you expressed there. Especially the part about feeling like you broke up with a person. That’s pretty much how my LE is now. And I was never even with LO.
I’m a sick sick Man…
Hi MJ, you need to not judge yourself too harshly for your limerence, which is involuntary. I understand the shame – I had it. Your self -loathing will delay your healing.
Thank you HW. I get that it’s voluntary. Most of it at least. It’s just hard to want to give up on the voluntary parts because everything else in my life is straight crap right now. They always say limerence won’t happen when everything is going good. Which is very true in my case.
I feel like LO is simply greatest, missed opportunity. So that explains the self loathing. I probably can’t do much to change that, but it sure is nice to think about.
Thank you HW. I get that itās INvoluntary. Most of it at least. Itās just hard to want to give up on the voluntary parts.
That’s what I meant to say.
Sorry, no edit feature here..
First of all, am surprised that Dr L is in his 40s? From the quality of writing (its substance), Iāve assumed heās much much older, like a wise grandpa in his 60s. Ha. Things you learn.
Secondly, why did you start this blog if youāre in a happy marriage of decades long? Iām sorry, I work long days and working on my PhD so Iāve been popping in here as often as I can but am nowhere near catching up on the content here.
I promise Iām not passing judgment on anyone but I seriously wonder how partnered up folk can experience limerance. If Iām not content in my relationship, I get out.
ā I seriously wonder how partnered up folk can experience limeranceā
Because life is long, and human hearts and minds are complicated, and putting on a wedding ring doesnāt mean that all of a sudden you stop noticing other people or having desires and feelings for other people. And this limerence thing can be sneaky – for 5 years my LO was just a coworker that I liked and found attractive but never really thought about, and then we started talking a little more often, and then she started sharing some more personal things with me, and then she started texting me occasionally, and then we were texting and taking every day, and only then I realized I was completely infatuated with this woman. I hadnāt been grossly unhappy with my marriage and I definitely hadnāt been looking for another relationship, but I just connected with another person and failed to enforce some boundaries, and now here I am trying to sort through everything.
āIf Iām not content in my relationship, I get out.ā
Thatās harder to say when youāve been married to someone for 20 years and have 3 kids and a home and a shared life and shared dreams for the future and you still love them very much in spite of whatever issues youāre facing. And I guarantee if two people are together for decades, there will always be times when one or both of them is not content with the relationship. If that was always a reason to get out, lifelong marriages would never exist! I think the reality of marriage is that there will be ups and downs, times of contentment and seasons of discontent, maybe even periods of limerence for another person, but if the marriage is still healthy at a fundamental level, with love and mutual respect and friendship and caring and compatibility between the spouses, then itās worth it to work through all the other stuff and fight for the marriage.
This is well said.
I agree with Speedy and Lost in Space.
Hell yeah.
Ditto, well put LIS!
I must also add Natasha that you can be perfectly content in your relationship yet fall into limerence with someone else.
Love is not a limited resource, there are no limits to the number of people you can love concurrently, and although most are only limerent for one person at a time this does not stop you still loving your spouse. Limerence is not the same thing as real love.
I met my wife online back in 1999 when that was not a common thing. I talked to her as a friend for a good while (romantically talking to other women) before I felt romantic feelings for her. When those feelings hit I wanted to talk to her on the phone or in chat as much as I could. I ran up a $1600 long distance phone bill. Both our parents thought we were crazy basically meeting sight unseen for the hundreds of miles apart that we were. But we talked about it. Housing arrangements. Who would move where. Despite the amazing feelings associated with finding someone you want to be with, we thought things through. And once we knew what we wanted for sure, I asked her to marry me. 23 years together, two premature boys, and one LE and she’s still by my side. I honestly wouldn’t ever want to be limerent for her.
LO? Let’s see. An overwhelmingly disproportionate view of a woman who I had known and worked with then for a short period of time now consumes my every thought. I couldn’t wait to see her pretty green eyes or her pretty smile. I wanted to hear her voice. The way she said my name. I would be ready intervene if a man even looked at her cross-eyed. It was consumed by her even trying to do everyday mundane work tasks. I spoke her name in my sleep regularly. I had dreams of her. I day dreamed about her. I was jealous of her gentleman friend. I arouse suspicion with my family that I was having an affair. I bought her gifts despite that probably wasn’t the best decision even if I believed it was platonic. When I went back to my office after helping her I would find excuses to call her office so I could talk to her, when I couldn’t see her. I frequented her social media when I couldn’t see her. To the dismay of my family and for my own drunken happiness I did all those things.
Now which one of those sounds like a healthy relationship and which doesn’t?
I know I sound bitter. I am very glad to have read the wonderful story of Dr. L and Mrs L’s limerence. But their story seems to be a rarity. I guess limerence has just left a bad taste in my mouth.
Actually, Adam. You sound very clear-eyed.
One is a real relationship. One is fantasy.
I also just want to point out: when you scan both your paragraphs (rather than read) see how many times the words “I” and “we” show up in the first paragraph vs. the second paragraph.
It is when we realize how much of limerence is about the “I” that we realize it is all about ourselves.
It is isn’t it.
I’m sorry LO. To quote one of the greatest musicians ever …
“I never meant to cause you any sorrow
I never meant to cause you any pain
I only wanted one time to see you laughing”
“To quote one of the greatest musicians ever ā¦”
Agree. And not only did the world lose a great talent in 2016 but also one of the sexiest damn men to ever grace this planet. š
Lol Marcia, just tell us how you feel š
But I will give the man one thing; dude knew how to rock the style he wanted and have to give him credit for that. I’m just now doing that half way though my life, but I ain’t ever gonna be able to rock high heel boots like he could.
Adam,
“But I will give the man one thing; dude knew how to rock the style he wanted and have to give him credit for that”
He lived exactly as he wanted, with near total freedom. Not only that, they made accomodations for him when he decided he wanted to change the rules. His Saturday Night Live performance … first artist to combine the two performance segments into one long segment. And the show’s producers let him do it because they knew he would be awesome once he got on stage.
He had true style and unconstrained personality. Took balls of steel in our conformist society.
First time posting here although Iāve been reading all this for several weeks. Iām really grateful to have discovered this as it has helped me gain some understanding as to what Iām experiencing.
Unfortunately, earlier this week, after 7 months of almost NC, which I initiated, I asked LO to meet with me. Somehow, I convinced myself (on a day I was feeling better, no less) that if I got answers to all the questions which have been plaguing me for the past year, I might feel better.
Not entirely surprisingly, I donāt feel at all better.
The āgoodā news is that everything I imagined about him, the type of person he is, his life experiences, his feelings about me, and his current situation were more accurate than they really should have been given how incredibly awkward weād been with each other as well as how many walls weād both thrown up to try to protect ourselves. So, Iām not crazy. That, at least, is good to know, I guess. But also incredibly painful.
Prior to this meeting Iād been scouring the articles and posts here, trying to figure out my feelings as well as his. The post about the signs someone else is experiencing limerence should have been enough to answer that specific question. He checked every box and more. The sign I found most āfunnyā (or terribly sad) were the Freudian Slips. His werenāt quite as bad as the examples but still pretty telling (and entertaining). Maybe one day Iāll share more but, tonight, it is just going to turn into further rumination and lead to more ugly crying. Iām about cried out at this point.
Long story short, yesterday we met at a park so he could provide me with my mythical closure which he denied me at the time I broke things off (with a letter because I knew I wouldnāt get the words out).
What I learned was that I was completely correct on way too many points. He was hit with the glimmer pretty much the same moment I wasā¦which was the moment we first saw each other. He IS pretty much exactly who I thought he was and heās a kind, caring (probably TOO caring), beautiful, conflicted, soul. And heās still longing for me just as I am for him. He disclosed all this before I had even gotten my thoughts together enough to complete a sentence. And, he doesnāt want to see me again because āIām not good for himā and because āhe canāt keep doing this to himselfā and because āitās better for me if he stays awayā.
He got all this out in the first five minutes then we proceeded to hike for another two hours and really talk for the first time since since the very beginning. It was lovely. Lovely escapism. By half way through, we were mostly talking as though weād be seeing each other again very soon. Pretending that it wasnāt goodbye. Until we couldnāt anymore.
As Iām sure is clear to everyone here, thereās a ton more to this story. Huge obstacles which make it nearly impossible for there to be any sort of future for us. We both made some pretty terrible decisions and mistakes over those first 5 months and both our lives are now altered. Mine, at least, never came down to lying to or deceiving anyone but maybe myself. His, on the other hand, did involve both those things.
Heās not married but, because of a decision he made less than 6 months before meeting me, while deeply depressed and rebounding from his abusive soon-to-be-ex-wife, is now financially entangled with a woman who he barely knew before buying a house with her and who, surprise, isnāt turning out to be who he thought she was. So, even though heās not happy, heās sticking with it out of ādutyā (10 months ago it was, well, he never said love but definitely caring) and because he canāt figure out where heād live if he left her. Heās also still financially supporting his ex because sheās mentally/emotionally unstable and he doesnāt know what will happen to her if he doesnāt. And, as he told me very early on, because heās terribly co-dependent (not in those words butā¦). For that reason alone, Iād be horrible with him. I HATE being needed and would never be happy feeling that I was – to that extent at least. Also, weād be a bad fit because he also needs to be needed. While I FEEL like I need him right now, I know I really donāt and he knows this too.
Having written all this out now, Iām really wondering what the heck Iām thinking. But, ultimately, it doesnāt matter. Iām STUCK right now – or at least will be again by the morning. And now MY rescue instinct has been triggered and I want desperately to āsaveā him from himself and show him all the beauty heās missing and that, contrary to his current beliefs, there ARE people, such as myself, who are exactly who they say they are.
Yesterday was the first time heās been on a hike in over 6 years and he was loving it. That used to be a big part of his life growing up but he doesnāt do it anymore because the women heās chosen ādonāt like to be activeā. WTH? First, he could flippin go by himself. Second, heās a work-out fiend. How he chooses people who just like to sit on the couch and watch tv makes zero sense to me.
Hmmā¦Iām getting a little angry now. That might be good! Itās also probably good that Iām finally allowing myself to cry over him. Before yesterday I wouldnāt because, given how little I knew about him, it seemed ridiculous. Like crying over an imaginary friend. Heās now filled in all the blanks I needed filled and is a full(ER) person to me.
So, Iām now wondering how Iām going to come to feel about my decision to break NC. When I started writing this, I was in pretty deep regret. Now Iām thinking it might have been the right decision for me. But probably not for him.
It will also be interesting to see how I come to feel about knowing he feels the same (or similar) as I. I donāt wish this upon him but at the same time, I couldnāt stomach the thought that he might NOT.
I feel broken right now and have since I first met him. He made/makes me feel more alive than Iāve felt in years. The highest highs. And the lowest lows. And I feel as though our mutual limerence fed each otherās, causing intensity neither one of us knew how to handle. I may prefer to feel partially dead for the rest of my life than to ever feel this way again. But, at the same time, I deeply dread letting go.
Iām just checking in on you. How are things now? I deeply connected to your story.
I feel like Iāve been experiencing the worst possible form of mutual limerence. A coworker of mine ā who has a live in boyfriend ā started acting interested in me a little over a year ago, paying me a lot of attention, seeing me for coffee or lunch much more frequently, telling me Iām the only person who ever gets her out of the house, praising me regularly. I had just become single and I fell hard for it. Sheās really attractive and Iām not used to a beautiful woman paying so much attention to me. But sheās not available, so I disclosed my feelings in September of last year and drew a boundary, that I wanted to keep our relationship professional, that my feelings had become too strong, which I said was no fault of hers even though I kind thought it was (just didnāt think that was a point worth making) and I donāt want to be a backup guy. She agreed to this but said nothing about her own feelings.
Since then, sheās worked really hard at playing around those boundaries and creating all kinds of new work opportunities for us to be engaged in ā¦ and, in truth, sheās a wonderful collaborator and coworker, we work really well together. But Iāve been on an emotional rollercoaster through all of it because Iām trying really hard to disengage from her and have worked on it hard in therapy and know full well that even if she were single, her hot-and-cold approach is not the basis of a healthy relationship. But itās been a year now and I still havenāt fully disengaged from her, not so much because I want her, but because she makes me generally disinterested in finding anyone else ā¦ the one time I did have a brief fling (back in March) the idea that I was being disloyal made me so anxious that I basically sabotaged the new relationship.
She stalks my social media pretty regularly. And Iām starting to strongly dislike her in some ways because sheās being so selfish for demanding my attention and offering nothing in return. And the funny thing is, even though Iām very attracted to her, I never have sexual fantasies about her. So I donāt want a relationship with her and donāt want sex ā¦ and I canāt go no contact because now our careers are almost completely enmeshed. She hints at times that she has other limerent relationships (usually with women, oddly enough) and Iām hoping she eventually gets wrapped up enough in one (or her seemingly oblivious boyfriend finally sees these narcissistic games she plays and does something to wake her up) and Iām allowed to separate from her and find some peace.
Sounds like she really is the kind of āSensorā (https://livingwithlimerence.com/why-are-they-leading-me-on/) who enjoys limerent attention.
Honestly, having such a woman as LO and coworker sounds awful. I’d try my best to remove myself from that situation (changing jobs, NC on social media) if I were you.
> But sheās not available, so I disclosed my feelings in September of last year and drew a boundary. […] I donāt want to be a backup guy. She agreed to this but said nothing about her own feelings.
Maybe you should try again get some closure from her. Tell her that this situation really takes a toll on you and that she needs to make it clear whether she has feelings for you or not. And that it would help you, not hurt you, if she says that she doesn’t.
>[I] know full well that even if she were single, her hot-and-cold approach is not the basis of a healthy relationship. She hints at times that she has other limerent relationships (usually with women, oddly enough) and Iām hoping she eventually gets wrapped up enough in one (or her seemingly oblivious boyfriend finally sees these narcissistic games she plays and does something to wake her up).
Don’t count on it. I’m bipolar myself, have high levels of trait narcissicm (according to the NPI) and such a girlfriend would sound amazing to me. I’d probably not just tolerate, but even encourage such behavior as long as she wouldn’t be crossing lines. He’s probably already on board and enjoys that his GF is getting a lot of attention from others.
It is really nice finding this page and finding out that there are others going through this.. I want to talk about this to someone so bad, but there is no one who would have sympathy and not judge.
I have created this situation in my head, and whatās even worse: my LO isnāt even in the same city and we have only met once! So avoiding him is easy. The only thing we can do is talk over IM. But I donāt want to avoid him at all. I tried, and I end up feeling so so sad and heartbroken that I canāt help it and I reach out again. Some days I feel like I am fine, this is stupid, no guy should be making me feel this way. I am way better looking than him. Why do I even like him? How can I be obsessed with someone I have met once? But there just isnāt an answer! And the thing is I know he is attracted to me too because he admitted it. But probably only sexually.
Both of us are unavailableā¦and thatās why I canāt tell any friends because they will judge.. The longing is so strong some days that it hurts, if I let myself think about it. I donāt let myself think about it, but my mind wanders all the time. I keep on wondering if he feels the same, is he still interested even sexually, is he not talking to me because he is trying to distance himself, or he simply doesnāt think about me like I do? And I canāt ask him any of it because he has a family and so do I. So I have to pretend that nothing is going on. And how do I get back to being more present for my family.
Welcome, Lola
There is a lot of great information at this site, both in DR Ls blogs but in the comments section as well. Everyone here understands what you are struggling with and no one judges. It’s a great place to dump emotions you are feeling at the moment and to even seek some advice.
Take some time to read through various blogs. Self awareness and understanding limerence is a huge theme here and it will get you to ask questions of yourself that you never asked before. I was drowning before I took the time to understand limerence and what is going on in my head and heart.
In most instances, it would seem that going full no contact with your LO is the best method of recovery. You seem like you might be in a situation where that is already happening so now understanding the why and how of it all will help you move forward. You are at the right place to figure that out.
Feel free to share your whole story too.
I am afraid to share the story because it might be too recognizableā¦ like if he was to read it he would know. Which is probably a crazy concern since why would he even be here and find my particular comment. But I am very afraid of rejection and shame, and I canāt risk him knowing this is happening to me.
I think I understand myself very well in general. I think this is happening because I miss passion and lusting after someone. And as a married person, I donāt have the option to find someone else. I have never crossed the line with anyone. I do find people attractive obviously, but my mental block doesnāt allow me to have any inappropriate thoughts about them, especially when they are also not available. But in this case, even though both of us are unavailable, the sexual attraction is/was mutual and it was welcome by both of us. So the mental block fellā¦ and the feeling I get when I imagine our encounter is like nothing else. Itās an addiction. And at the same time, I donāt actually fantasize about him anymore because I donāt know if itās mutual, and I canāt imagine anything unless itās mutual and realistic. If I know he thinks about me too, I would let myself go and constantly fantasize.
I am making this into something that it isnāt, and regardless of no in person contact, he is constantly on my mind. Everything I do I want to tell him. Things that happen to me, I want to tell him. And if I am at work and can IM him, I want to tell him about things that happen during the day, but I also canāt because I know we are at work and supposed to be working, and he canāt be constantly giving me attention, and I canāt be that needy person who constantly needs his attention. And still, my lime ranch isnāt going away. Itās a fantasy that involves a real person.