The last post covered an analysis of whether limerence is a spectrum or a binary – in other words, can you feel “quite limerent”, or can people actually be sorted into distinct “limerent” and “non-limerent” tribes?
I appreciate this is might seem a pedantic point to get hung up on (and Lord knows I like exploring a good academic rabbit-hole), but I do think it’s important.
I think most people’s experience of limerence is that it’s an altered mental state – a distinct period in life when you feel like a different person, when your whole emotional being is hijacked by a single focus and overwhelming desire.

I’ve no doubt that people manage those feelings differently, that the intensity of the sensation varies between limerents, and that the difficulty of recovery depends on lots of factors that are highly individual and personal. But, if Tennov is right and limerence is a sort of neural algorithm that is either operational or not, then people really are either limerents or non-limerents. The sorting is as simple as “have you ever experienced that altered state of mind?”.
Simple answers are tidy, but also problematic. As soon as you start to set boundaries on this sort of issue, the exceptions begin. What if someone had a really intense crush during adolescence, but since then have had stable, loving attachments without the limerence madness? Are they a limerent or not? What if they are destined to have a big limerence episode in the future, does that mean they are a “dormant” limerent? What if someone had experienced the altered state of mind, but it had never had a negative impact on their life? Does limerence have to include the more costly, addictive aspects of the experience in order to qualify?
How altered does your state of mind need to be? Do you have to get properly deranged, or is a giddy fix of “new relationship energy” enough? We’re back to a spectrum now – is limerence defined by the intensity of the “altered state” or the impact on your life?
Part of the reason I’m currently obsessing about this is that I am working on a book about limerence and one of the key chapters is about how common limerence is, and what kinds of people experience it.
Previously, from expert estimates and indirect measures, we’ve ended up with a figure of 5% of the population being limerents, but intuitively that feels low, based on my own conversations with friends and colleagues.
Anecdotes are not data though, so I would like to try and answer the question more directly. I have a plan:
- Come up with a short description of the limerence experience
- Survey a large number of people (at random) and ask “Have you ever experienced this?”
- If possible, get some sort of breakdown on their demographics – age, sex, sexual orientation would be ideal – to see if the prevalence varies between groups
That forces a binary decision on the survey respondents, but it does also mean that the question we ask is absolutely critical. If I ask, “Have you ever experienced X, Y and Z symptoms,” and the respondent thinks “well, I have had X and Z, but Y doesn’t sound quite right” then it will be hard for them to answer. So, we need a really clear and unambiguous description that captures limerence in a concise and accurate way.
That’s today’s goal.

Here’s my best first effort:
I have sometimes felt a romantic infatuation so powerful that it overwhelmed all other concerns in my life. My emotions swung between extreme highs and lows, and my thoughts and dreams were dominated by the other person. It almost felt like I was addicted to them.
I suspect that can be improved upon. So, I have two questions for the community:
- Can you think of a better summary of the limerent experience?
- Do you have experience of any big online market research/survey platforms that can target this question to people based on the age, sex and sexual orientation demographics?
Thanks all!
Let’s get this question answered once and for all…
Hi Dr L,
„that it overwhelmed all other concerns in my life.“
That might seem a bit strong for some people. I mean, most of us would still care for their children first und would turn up for work.
I know what you mean, but a person who doesn’t easily admit mistakes would probably stall a bit at that description.
I’ve got no experience at all with online market research, sorry, cannot help here…
Over-shadowed perhaps?
👍🏻sounds better to me!
Yes agree overshadowed is better.
Also just being bit pedantic on wording of “I have sometimes felt a romantic infatuation ….”
Some other suggestions “I have at some time or another felt…”
“I have experienced romantic infatuation that felt so powerful it overshadowed….. ‘ or
‘I have on one or more occasions felt a romantic infatuation…”
Imho,
I also suggest a question
„I have on one or more occasions felt an overpowering urge to use kissing Emojis in otherwise innocent texts without obvious rhyme or reason, even when warned off several times by Imho.“
And by Marcia, of course!
Very funny Mila… made me LOL!! 🤣
I see you now have Marcia on your back with this too! 😘
„I see you now have Marcia on your back with this too! 😘“
Yes! What would I do without you. Really glad that there are people here who give unbiased and intelligent feedback 😘😘
Hi Dr. L, happy New Year to you and yours.
My experience, as an old person, was a “sudden take over “ of my brain and thoughts, which I could not control in any possible way. My brain totally on auto pilot to barely do the rational chores of every day life. Would say 95 % or more of my brain focused on the LO, without being able to shake it off even if I tried so hard to do so. And that was 24/7 non stop for ten long months . I’m full aware that there’s an abnormal state of mind which I have never experienced before. Though the intensity has diminished holding on 24 hours daily, it certainly keeps coming back sometimes very strong. But for ten months I was totally out of control of my thoughts with LO “INVADING” my entire thought process! I don’t wish this limerence thing on my worst of enemies. My worries are not so much getting it, but when is it going to go away so I can live a normal life as before? This thing is very disturbing and scary… though the euphoria at the beginning has no comparison to any other thrill, the downs after are unbearable , no thanks, I don’t want it, I pass. The addiction to a drug, I believe is easier to get over with than addiction to a LO.
This is like an invasion to the brain, making it go haywire .
A medicine for it please!!!
Have a great weekend !
This very much echoes my experience too.
Same.
@Nisor & Others.
For those who describe limerence as a “sudden take-over” of brain and thoughts, could one use the term “immersion” as an accurate metaphor for the sudden take-over? I.e. is limerence like plunging into the deep end of a swimming pool? (Or maybe the deep end of the ocean?) 😉
What are the initial emotions associated with the plunge? Is it exhilaration? Does one feel obsession and euphoria at the same time?
Would it be accurate to say that maybe there’s no ambivalence, no hemming and hawing, during the onset of limerence. Any feelings of ambivalence only come later on in the process e.g. when one discovers the experience can’t be “turned off” despite being inconvenient?
“This thing is very disturbing and scary… though the euphoria at the beginning has no comparison to any other thrill, the downs after are unbearable.”
That sounds awful, Nisor. Initially, I did not think limerence disturbing and scary. I think I found the experience stressful and confusing, but also incredibly pleasurable and intoxicating. Unbearable downs following incomparable highs, however, tracks well with my own lived experience. 🤔
Sammy, what you describe is exactly how I would describe it in my experience with LO. 10 short days of glimmer period. My glimmer has an actual starting event and a crystalization event. About 6 weeks of exhilaration and euphoria that all of a sudden turned unbearably low as reality set in and it could not be turned off. 4 months of a lot of tears and depression and now 18 months of trying to manage it as best as possible. Some days are still really tough.
In the pool analogy, for me, it was more like when you dared yourself at 10 years old to see how far to the deep end you could tip toe even though you didn’t know how to swim. The unknown was forbidden and exciting at the same time. Every tip toe took you closer and closer to a line that you shouldn’t cross. Maybe you could make it to the ladder at the deep end of the pool. Maybe you wouldn’t drown. But no matter the outcome you couldn’t stop. The excitement was too addicting. There she was. Right there. Just standing on the other side of the line you shouldn’t cross. You could hear your mother screaming at you to stop out of fear you would drown. But you couldn’t focus on that. You kept tip toeing until the water was all around you. And when you would sink to the bottom to push yourself back up to the top it was too far and you couldn’t break the surface anymore. Finally you find yourself on the pool room floor and there your mother is as you finally open your eyes. She saved you from yourself. Then five minutes later you are back in the pool heading towards the ladder on the deep end. It’s call beckoning you. I swear women will be the death of me long before alcohol.
I’ve always compared the feeling of euphoria, at the initial glimmer of LO, to that of being hit with a limerence meteorite.
Like this explosion went off inside me. It was on a day where I had locked eyes with her in the office, and she gave me the cutest, most precocious smile I’ve ever seen. Think Cupid, instead of shooting an arrow, tossing a meteorite at my heart. That’s how it felt. Super intense euphoria. I would say that feeling lasted for at least a month. Then a slow downgrade over the next few months, to where real lows, with tears and sadness hit about 5 months later.
To this day, I am still sad about what never transpired. Never in my life did I once think I could ever feel for another human being like I do for LO. I wonder if any Woman will ever come close.
Sammy hi,
The swimming pool metaphor for me is not so much because I don’t know how to swim, and never had the thrill or excitement people have when jumping in the deep end of it. I’d rather compare my experience of climbing to the cuspid of a mountain. The energy, the euphoria and obsession climbing to the top, nothing would have stopped me. Oh that energy that makes you “turbo” charged! It’s so pleasurable one feels on cloud nine! It lasted for a few weeks, maybe a month and a half. The world smiled at me and I smiled back at it…
No, there was no ambivalence during the onset of limerence, there was no room for it. Everything was colorful and beautiful, I felt super joyful. But, soon it dawned on me this wasn’t normal at my age, feeling like a teenager! Still , I pursued , I got a hold of LO’s telephone number and called. That was climbing to the top of the mountain! (I had not talked to LO for forty nine years!) The call went well. But reality hit home, I couldn’t turn off the thoughts and ruminations, as this cannot be, LO is taken, he has a SO, so do I, that’s when I started to feel ambivalent. Should I call him again, go No Contact for ever ? I did call again, then went NC. ( the interaction was fine, lovely, but debilitating to hear his voice , he’s a continent away. )
(My limerence is for an ex boyfriend when I was young)
.
The experience cannot be “turned off” despite being inconvenient, no, it’s not in your hands or your willpower.
That’s when it became very disturbing and scary. Disturbing, because you can’t turn it off, and the ruminations never ending; scary, because you don’t know why this is happening and for how long before you crumble down with pain and sadness, you feel your emotions have imprisoned you ; also what if you start “leaking” and SO finds out?
SOs are inconvenient at the time you’re feeling low because you can’t let your emotions out, and have to put on a mask, choking in your feelings. I think this prolongs the suffering. One would rather be alone with one’s sorrows.
The lows start when all that euphoria goes away and one understands the “impossibility “ of ever obtaining the unobtainable: LO.
Acceptance of facts is my mantra. Facts, reality, it helps…
Have a beautiful blessed weekend. Hugs.
“… weeks of exhilaration and euphoria that all of a sudden turned unbearably low as reality set in and it could not be turned off. … months of a lot of tears and depression and now … months of trying to manage it as best as possible.” @Speedwagon.
“The unknown was forbidden and exciting at the same time. Every tip toe took you closer and closer to a line that you shouldn’t cross. Maybe you could make it to the ladder at the deep end of the pool. Maybe you wouldn’t drown. But no matter the outcome you couldn’t stop. The excitement was too addicting.” @Adam.
“Like this explosion went off inside me … Think Cupid, instead of shooting an arrow, tossing a meteorite at my heart. That’s how it felt. Super intense euphoria … a slow downgrade over the next few months … real lows, with tears and sadness.” @MJ.
“I’d rather compare my experience of climbing to the cuspid of a mountain. The energy, the euphoria and obsession climbing to the top, nothing would have stopped me … no ambivalence during the onset of limerence … Everything was colorful and beautiful … [later on] can’t turn it [limerence] off … ruminations never ending … The lows start when all that euphoria goes away …” @Nisor.
Such amazing feedback, everyone! Thank you for sharing. 😜
Hi Dr L, I’m no expert, but I think you need to break it down and actually ask lots of questions and some neutral /other questions in the survey too in order to get a true answer back from the individuals and not what they think they should answer when you ask a momentous question like that. People sometimes don’t like to appear boring or impassionate even in a survey. And some of those questions can be binary but some will need to be a sliding scale. You will need to ask some neutral questions that pertain to relationships and love and nothing to do with limerence at all, to be inclusive for those who have never experienced it.
The best surveys on the human mind and emotion have to ask the same question two or three times in a slightly different way scattered through a survey to get to the truth. I think the Myers Briggs questionnaire is a good example of this and worth assessing. I’m sure lots of other personality questionnaires out there too.
Also can the folks at Sussex University give you some good starting point and maybe offer you some learnings from the survey they did last year?
Sorry meant for the other thread, i have copied it over.
I always wish there was a space for ‘additional information’ on surveys because I frequently feel like there are two ways (or more) to interpret the question. I wish I could clarify my meaning so that my answer could be discounted (or even altered) if my perception of the question differs from the meaning intended. Likert scale tests often leave me feeling misunderstood 😅 Then there’s just so much variation depending on how many response options you give. I know it’s stupidly time-consuming, but I personally feel the only way to really understand it is to do semi-structured interviews or….
Could you do a kind of qualitative/quantitative approach where you analyze the ranting and ravings of those of us who’ve posted here often, codify our language (which would be an indication of limerence) and develop the definition from there? (Could Chat GPT help you with this?) If you initially used the posts inductively, further develop your theory/definition, and then approach the survey or interview responses deductively (you could spend the next 500 years analyzing the data) you might also see some pretty distinct patterns emerging that allow some form of threshold for the definition 🤷♀️ Or find that it really isn’t binary at all 🤔 I’ve had a few glasses of wine and this is one of my favorite topics 🍷🤓
If those who regularly post also took your previous test (and reported our scores to you), maybe patterns in our language would emerge that correspond with our scores 🤷♀️ As you say, the definition is critical. It might be worth investing time developing it as a ‘theory’ first so you have a clear test and threshold in mind before developing the questions for the survey. Otherwise your data could be just as messy and inconclusive as all previous attempts. Am I making sense or just going off on a complete tangent? 😏 I just feel there’s a lot of raw, honest, self-reported data on this page and you have the opportunity to really set up an excellent hypothesis/study, but as with all social science research, it’s insanely complicated and never going to be perfect!
How many alcoholics (me) potheads, obsessive gamblers, serial cheaters, sex addicts, crackheads, smart phone addicts, binge watchers, etc admit the issue. I don’t think realistic data is skewered because of a low percentages of limerents but because despite internet anonymity most are either ignorant of something beyond infatuation or are unwilling to admit it. Especially since (one year posting here) 90% of cases I’ve read are limerents with barriers. To me limerence is active thing we partake in out of lack of self control. Limerence is no more a “disease” than my alcoholism.
PS
Cordelia
Good to see you! I havent seen you in a long time. Good to see post again. Hope all is well for you. Dont be a stranger. 🙂
Hey Adam (and Emeritus)
I still lurk from time to time and this post sparked the social science nerd in me.
I agree that even here, people aren’t entirely open. We often lie to ourselves, don’t we?
I haven’t read many blog responses lately so not sure how you’re doing..? Hope you’re going OK. I keep attracting the same type. Another gym another guy. Thankfully my psychologist is there to support and guide me through it so I don’t lose too much time and energy developing feelings for someone who isn’t right for me. I straight up asked a guy who kept trying to push through my boundaries if I was giving him mixed messages. See, I’m learning! But he said ‘no’. Unfortunately I don’t think that was entirely honest…. But I’ve been thinking about the whole ‘manipulative LO’ thing and I’ve come up with an analogy.
Like Emeritus said to me, I need to think of myself as a castle. I’m keeping the drawbridge down and the portcullis closed. Problem is, these guys frequently want to fly in through a second-floor window. I feel like they’re not getting my boundaries. As in, I’m fine with doing things together in a group, but not alone. I needed help with something so I asked several friends. He told me he couldn’t come then but he could come another time. This made my anxiety go through the roof because it felt deliberate (as in, he could’ve made it but he wanted to be alone with me in my home). He was quite emotional/nervous when he was talking to me about it. My other friends couldn’t solve the problem (needed muscle) so I ended up asking him. My friends encouraged me to just ask him for help even though it felt like it was a violation of my boundaries. I decided I could let him in the window but keep the interior doors locked 😅
I can see how all of this would come across as mixed messages. The problem is, he’s the one coming forward towards me but it’s not in a way I can handle. So I try and guide him to come back to the portcullis. I’m not ready to give him access to the rest of the castle but it feels like he sees that as me putting him in the ‘friend zone’. It’s not the friend zone. It’s the filtering zone. Even for friendship, it’s the filtering zone for everyone!
Perhaps limerents want to push through their LO’s boundaries too quickly in their enthusiasm. I wrote about this before as ‘trying them on’ in my head. But I prefer the boundary analogy because I need to ‘try them on’ in a way and place that feels safe to me. So that’s where I’m at! Still getting philosophical about it all and trying to act with integrity ☺️✌🏻
Hi Cordelia. It’s nice to see you again, favorite Cheerleader. This line made me lmao..
“I need to think of myself as a castle. I’m keeping the drawbridge down and the portcullis closed. Problem is, these guys frequently want to fly in through a second-floor window. I feel like they’re not getting my boundaries.”
You probably haven’t read my post that I met another Woman at work recently. It’s not a limerent thing and I’m not entirely sure if I want it to be. (Nobody will ever be LO) There’s a little more to this person than I thought and I feel like she’s being very guarded. I guess that because I’m someone new to her. I think she can sense my interest but I am really pursuing nothing more than friendship at this point. (Not out of the LE woods yet)
I think she is in the “filtering” zone with me, as you call it. I’ve pushed no agendas or dates to hang out as most of our discussions are about work but nothing much at that even. I am not trying to give off desperate vibes or being needy-like. I wouldn’t complain if things ever progressed. She checks off a lot of boxes in what I’m looking for in a Woman but I don’t want to make that obvious. Guess what I’m saying too is I’d love to fly in through her 2nd floor window, but I’m really all about respecting her privacy.
Aww MJ I’m glad someone else has piqued your interest ☺️ Tread carefully and maybe the powers-that-be will get crazy and decide it’s your turn for a healthy relationship 🤞🤞🤞
Glad you found my analogy amusing 😅 I don’t think I’m an LO in this case. But I am aware that the mismatch in boundaries probably comes across as mixed messages and so I wanted to be up front with him about that. Get rid of the uncertainty before it has a chance to become an issue. The extra level of complexity is there because we’re at the same gym and we both plan to be there for a long time. The whole filtering process needs to be that much better when you’re potentially going to sh*t where you eat 🤷♀️
I’ll check back soon to see if anything progresses with this lady…
Hi Call me Cordelia,
I am really glad you are giving yourself boundaries in these relationships. It is so good for you, and for everyone who wants to get to know you!
I want to make sure I understand what you’re saying … in the analogy, are you saying that these men what to basically get intimate/close to you before you’ve even had a chance to get to know them?
I was in this type of situation before becoming a Christian, and I had to relearn boundaries for myself and others in terms of romantic relationships. But one does not have to be a Christian have great boundaries in this regard. If a man is pushing too hard before you are ready, clearly he is not considering your needs. Even if a friend is doing that, same thing.
Your boundaries will weed out the bad ones, and the good ones will stick around and pursue you according to your needs. You are the woman — you hold the power and the right to save yourself for marriage, or monogamy, or whatever you are seeking.
We support you! 💕
Hi Limerent Nurse
I’ve pretty much written a novel here 😴 but I felt the backstory was kind of important.
“are you saying that these men what to basically get intimate/close to you before you’ve even had a chance to get to know them?”
Kind of… It’s as complicated as limerence IMO.
A certain type of man (I’ll use ‘man’ because it’s always men for me, but of course women do it too) who has a lot of confidence in his appearance, but not in his personality, will rely solely on flirtation to attract women. Of course I find them physically attractive, and the ADHD part of my brain would probably leap into intimacy without much consideration. I have a bit of a split personality because I’m (self-diagnosed) for sure on the spectrum. My brain rules my heart and so I know this person is relying on their looks to charm women and there’s probably not much going on underneath.
What I find interesting is that the ones who do keep pursuing me (or even just flirting, not pursuing as such), have a lot going on underneath. They just didn’t want anyone to see it. If they pursue me, it’s because they can appreciate my intelligence.
My one and only LO is a highly intelligent person and capable of both creative and analytical pursuits. The love I had (still have) for him was as deep and genuine a love as I’ve ever known, but at times was obsessive. It isn’t any more. Thank goodness because I met him more than 20 years ago and we’re no longer in contact (he stopped replying to me).
When I first met him, he was stupidly flirty with me. It drove me insane because I wanted to KNOW him. I was really drawn to him (unlike the other pretty boys who’d done the same thing to me before). I felt that underneath there was someone worth knowing. I wrote to him and told him that all the flirting appealed to everything superficial in me but I wanted to know the real him. He finally found a girlfriend, the flirting stopped, and our friendship really started. That seemed to be the only way I could get to know him and filter properly. I loved him so much I couldn’t do the physical if I didn’t trust him. I knew it would destroy me. So it had to be friendship until there was trust. Unfortunately we don’t live in the same country and it never became intimate for many reasons.
LO gave me night terrors for years. When I was trying to uncover the pattern to my night terrors (they stopped for a few years then started up again and I didn’t know LO caused them) I went through old letters etc. I found a bunch of letters and cards from men declaring their love for me. I hadn’t really thought anything of it and had ignored them all and thrown them in a box. When I put them all together I started thinking that it was odd and some of them had gone to some pretty extreme behavior. I had been uncomfortable with it and had no idea how to address it, so had ignored it. I googled it until I found this site. In all of those cases, there were boundaries because either I was in a relationship or I was their teacher (I taught adults), or they were in a relationship etc. which I think exacerbated the issue. The ones who declared knew it was absolutely futile. I had zero interest in them for various reasons so the ‘uncertainty’ wouldn’t have been there. I wasn’t even filtering them. For them, they weren’t even given access to the portcullis.
The situation I’m in now, he’s objectively good looking and fit, but I very much get a wounded vibe from him. As in, he’s got kids to different mums, but I don’t think he’s done much inner work to understand what’s gone wrong. I think that because he’s very flirty but doesn’t seem confident in anything about himself except his looks. I barely know anything about him. He comes towards me physically at the gym but never initiates messages. If I initiate, he replies quickly. I need the messages first. The intellectual and emotional before the physical. The flirting annoys me no end because it has an effect on me and I have to fight it. This is the key difference between the ones who declare and the ones who don’t. The ones with zero chance tend to just write me a letter or send me texts when they’re drunk etc. The ones that I’m sussing out never declare. It never goes anywhere and often explodes dramatically.
I was interested in getting to know him, but slowly, as a friend. I was filtering to see if I could trust him. When I took him up on his offer of help, he initially let me down and didn’t communicate anything to me. He then did show up and helped me a lot, but my psychologist has said that unless he changes and comes at me with more maturity, he’s not even friendship material. I wouldn’t stuff a friend around like that and I expect my friends to show up for me the way I’d show up for them.
Him offering to help me alone just felt weird. I offered him lunch which he refused, but it still felt transactional. I barely know him, so why come and spend a couple of hours helping me out with physical yard work on a hot day? Can you see how that would feel like he’s come in through a second floor window? I kept my distance physically when he was here (and my child was here), so I suppose it would seem to be a mixed message – yes I’ll let you help me, but I’m still not sure if I even like you. I only let him because he just wasn’t meeting me at the portcullis and I felt it would give me some answers. And it did 🤷♀️
On point Adam!
Both of my Limerent relationships had barriers, that’s a crucial point I believe
“Limerence is an active thing we partake in out of lack of self control” Bingo!
Hi Dr L and all,
I am not sure what else to add, but I would happily be involved with helping you in your book study or research. When I looked up actual research last year I only found one published medical article on limerence, and it had only 5 participants.
I know that I have had “big” crushes since I was a child. Not due to any sort of trauma at all. Even before my parents separated then divorced when I was 16, I remember always having a “crush” on some one. Then, thinking back to my early dating years (17-22) it was serial monogamy, which I would only see through til I was bored by around year 2.
Fast forward, married at 28 (to a man I was not limerent for), I felt my first limerence experience at around 33 years old when I formed a friendship with a coworker, and we both felt like we fell in love with each other. Barriers: because I ultimately decided to stay married, and he had lifestyle choices that were not compatible with my lifestyle choices (even if I were single). He left the company and I was (thankfully) forced with no contact, and perhaps 6 months or longer able to be free from the first limerence experience.
Then, in 2021 a newer coworker starts complimenting me and making it obvious that he was very attracted to me, and the feeling was certainly mutual, and it started again! It was the best and worst thing that could have happened. I almost left my husband for this man because the emotions were so hard to fight. Thankfully, with time he too also left the company, giving me the no contact I desperately needed to finally overcome it.
Thankfully, found out about limerence last year during the lowest low of the fall-out, and I started to think about it more in this light.
I think that certain people have this “quirk” in their brain that causes them to either have the potential for limerence, or not. Because non-limerents cannot fathom this peculiarity. And I couldn’t fathom NOT having it because I have had it for so long.
Once I learned about it, my limerent brain actually sought out another LO without my conscious brain’s approval! So I used the skills learned, and fought that shark off with a bat — and I actually won!
Thankfully, I was/am a high-functioning limerent, meaning though the thoughts would terrorize me for months or years, I was still able to hold a full-time job, manage three children, a cat and a husband … yes, in that order.
But the thoughts were always driving my energy levels (if I was high in limerence = high energy/low in limerence=low energy). Then, once out of limerence, a normal, peaceful life.
And then there’s the personality thing. I am an INFJ-A and in my research we value ideals a lot. When I found someone who I connected with, it felt like the stars were aligned and I had found my soul-mate. But I also feel like that with friendships — since I often felt misunderstood in my life, and also hardly understood myself, having someone connect with me on certain levels felt spiritual.
So, all this to say, I am glad I understand that I have this condition, and can have tools to “manage” it.
While I love the idea of simplicity, I can’t think of another example where a psychological condition can be accurately diagnosed with a single question. I think about the DSM 5 criteria for any number of conditions, and the criteria basically all follow the same format – there’s a list of symptoms (usually more than 5 but less than 10), and to meet the criteria for diagnosis, the respondent has to endorse having at least X number of the symptoms. The symptoms also have to be present for a minimum amount of time, and can’t be better explained by another condition (ie a manic episode or substance use). Sometimes there are also key symptoms that have to exist in order to meet the criteria (ie must have 5 of the 9 symptoms in total, and at least one of the first 2), and for some conditions the severity of the condition can be classified as mild/mod/severe depending on the number of symptoms reported.
So I could imagine a process where you could generate a list of like 9 symptoms of limerence, based on the limerence literature and the data collected from this blog. And then could survey a group of limerents (ie us) and a group of non-limerents, and try to set the cut point for number of symptoms that separate limerents from non-limerents. For example, if all of us here report at least 5 of the 9 symptoms, and none of the “normies” report more than 3, and the worst of us here report 7+ symptoms, then you could end up with a criteria like:
Limerence is defined as the presence of at least 5 of the following symptoms persisting for a minimum of 4 weeks, not better explained by another condition such as a manic episode or substance addiction. Severe limerence is defined as the presence of 7 or more symptoms.
Something like that anyway…
Hi LIS,
Your projection makes a lot of sense to me! That could make it easier for Dr.L to come to a more complete conclusion of limerence. Also remember there’s a lot of people out there suffering from limerence who aren’t aware of it , and are still searching for an answer.
Have a great weekend and a fruitful new year.
Thanks for all the thoughtful comments, everyone.
I do agree with most of the points – you can’t reliably “diagnose” limerence with one question, or define it as a specific condition in a sentence. The problem is this point from LiS:
We can’t sort limerents from non-limerents without already having a test in place. All we can reasonably do is take the 20 questions of the quiz and come up with an arbitrary cut-off – e.g. you have to score more than 70% to be classed as a limerent. But why 70%? Why not 95% or 65%?
The other suspicion I have is that if we sample people at random with the quiz, we would get broad bell-shaped curve that significantly overlaps the curve from the last post. Everyone probably relates to the limerence symptoms a bit. How much is enough? And of course some people will agree with some questions and disagree with others. How different do the two populations have to be, and how do we quantify that? (ironically, this is a problem I have spent a lot of time wrestling with in my day job)
This is the spectrum perspective – you have to score high on the limerence scale to be a limerent, and the limerence scale is set on the symptoms of limerence. It’s a bit circular.
In this particular case I want to try and find out whether the 5% estimate for the prevalence of limerence in the general population is meaningful, but using a scale means we would have an average, and could then get any % prevalence we like just by setting the threshold at the right value.
The goal of this specific question is not to develop a true definition of limerence, it’s about finding out how many people in the general population relate to the concept. In other words it’s a “do you agree that this describes your experience?” question, not a “develop a definitive list of limerence symptoms” exercise.
If funds were no limit, I would of course like to gather all this data and more, but for now, one step at a time 🙂
Hello Dr. L! I am always late to the posts. Though I have no personal experience conducting research, I sometimes fill out surveys on a website called Connect by CloudResearch. No idea how much it costs to put a survey up on there (+they seem to be hosted on a different website i.e. surveymonkey, but i think those are often free – connect simply, well, connects researchers to participants), but it may be worth looking into. Researchers will often provide a comment box at the end wherein participants can provide feedback on the survey. There are also almost always some demographic questions (race/ethnicity, gender, age). It doesn’t seem to be locked to any one region as I’ve done plenty of surveys held by universities all over the world – they’re just all in English. However, I think participants are from a limited number of countries (don’t know the details).
These are paid surveys, but something like a one-question survey might give out between 5-10 cents, and it seems researchers are able to cap the number of participants.
Best of luck with your book!
The main blog photo… “her attempt at perfect contouring make-up was a binary disaster ! “
This is just me but here’s my concise version:
“an obsessive or extreme infatuation”.
This for me works well.
I liked the suggested definition, I would fit it despite me never wanting to identify with my own emotions properly and wanting to always run away… minus I wouldn’t add “dreams”. I mean I don’t necessarily remember my dreams, or if I do, then I still don’t necessarily dream about what’s important or anything.
Also I would say it’s truly an addiction ha ha ha. Even though in one case I’ve had way more lows than highs because I ran away eventually and it was a very hard experience of course. But yeah I like the wording “almost an addiction”.
As far as “overwhelmed all other concerns in my life”… I would say in that same case as above, I’ve had a huge fight not allowing it overwhelm my survival instincts and my basic sense of self as in, I did not want to become a huge failure in life, so I guess it didn’t overwhelm that but otherwise…yeah. I would say, you could consider that some people really fight this shit hard so maybe put it like “threatening to overwhelm all other concerns in my life”.
(I agree with Mila there, lol, I’m exactly that sort of person too.)
More on how I fight it. In another case, I just had such an extreme infatuation for a week I again ran in the end. I did that escape fast enough I guess, because it didn’t turn more obsessive than what I had in that one week. It didn’t have time to take deeper root or something. It was still 2 months before it all passed and since then I’ve been fine about that person. Definitely overwhelmed a lot of my focus in that one week though. It was impossible, truly. I ran because I did not want to take the risk that he’ll notice anything. But in retrospect I’m glad I did that so fast because that’s why it didn’t take deeper root, imo.
Regarding the 5% stat and the word “infatuation”…
As always, I am never sure if falling in love (with reciprocation, where a relationship happens) is considered Limerence, or whether Limerence is just non-productive obsessive infatuation.
I suspect the 5% stat relates to people prone to non-productive obsessive infatuation. I would guess that at least 50% of people experience falling in love…. falling in love always has a period of intensity and tunnel vision doesn’t it?
If the question includes the word “infatuation” it may filter out those that fall in love intensely, but do not tend to suffer non-reciprocated infatuation. So the question wording required depends on your definition of limerence. The Tennov definition included “falling in love”, but does the LwL definition include that?
If I were to define limerence based on all the LWL stories written here by various limerents, it would have to include an experience that is ‘distressing and disruptive to ones normal life without immediate escape’. I don’t see the euphoric falling in love period at the beginning of reciprocal romantic relationships or the normal post relationship blues as limerence.
The best I can sum it up in one question is…
“Have you ever felt deep desire (romantic or non-romantic) for someone and the desire became distressing and disruptive to your normal life for at least a 3 month period?”
@Allie 1
“… falling in love always has a period of intensity and tunnel vision doesn’t it?
Allie 1, I’m extremely interested in your remark here, because it might help define what limerence is and what limerence isn’t.
Here are my thoughts:
(1) Limerence is compulsory longing. (Is the longing in normal romantic love compulsory, or merely pleasurable?)
(2) Limerence requires uncertainty to reach max intensity. (If there are no barriers, and people can be together right away, is it still limerence? Is it just a very mild form of limerence – a form that never reaches max intensity, say?)
(3) Limerence is obsession. (Doesn’t normal love involve “obsession” too? Except the “obsession” in normal love is of a very short duration e.g. the first six weeks to three months of dating each other?)
(4) Limerence is distressing and disruptive. (Can we only describe people as limerents if they report distress and difficulty coping with life? Are there “high-functioning limerents and low-functioning limerents?)
(5) Could limerence be normal romantic love, but with a catch? Could the catch be this normal romantic love isn’t requited, and the limerent can’t let go of the unfruitful attachment? Or is the attachment of limerence fundamentally different in nature/character from the attachment found in normal romantic love?
Does normal romantic love have a drug-like feel to it? Or do “normal lovers” borrow extravagant language and ideas from “limerent lovers” because they don’t want to sound callous or unimaginative regarding romance? If society upholds “all-consuming passion” as the ideal, then who’s going to tell the truth about their own feelings if they feel their own feelings fall short of the ideal?
I remember as a student, how I came across it first. My first LE messed up my life, my studies, my relationship, my friendships, my reputation, everything. It was all and everything. Was like being my brain was hi-jacked, possessed, nothing else mattered. My brain and body was on fire. The fall-out effects of this was felt for years afterwards and it was like being bruised. It was reciprocated for a short intense time. I had no regard or hardly a thought for all the people that were hurt. And today, thirty years later and remembering what happened then, wondering how I got through it.
@Camilla George.
“I remember as a student, how I came across it first. My first LE messed up my life, my studies, my relationship, my friendships, my reputation, everything. It was all and everything. Was like being my brain was hi-jacked, possessed, nothing else mattered. My brain and body was on fire. The fall-out effects of this was felt for years afterwards and it was like being bruised. It was reciprocated for a short intense time. I had no regard or hardly a thought for all the people that were hurt. And today, thirty years later and remembering what happened then, wondering how I got through it.”
Wow! I relate so much to everything you’ve written in this paragraph. The actual limerence, when it was seemingly requited, was so thrilling. It doesn’t disrupt one’s life while the “romance” is going well – one might even be motivated to work harder in pursuing one’s goals, be kinder to others, look more attractive, etc.
Then everything turned to mud. (The LO stops bothering to provide any signs of reciprocation, for example). The limerent winds up feeling “bruised” – or, in my case, feels like “damaged goods” – for a long time afterwards. (How could someone I adored betray me in such a casual manner, as if there was nothing between us at all?)
I actually think what happens with some LOs is that they really enjoy the validation they get from limerent, but don’t really want to date said limerent. Then, when the LO gets their fill of validation from the limerent, they kind of lose interest in the limerent, and want to focus on other things. This is understandable human behaviour. The limerent, though, feels utterly destroyed because the limerent has become deeply attached to this seemingly very nice person (the LO).
What I’ve learnt is one can’t take LO’s “change in behaviour” personally – unless one wants to end up very, very bitter. I’ve learnt that one must shrug off the fickleness of the LO and continue to treat that person kindly, (if still in contact), all the while remembering that that person doesn’t want an actual relationship.
The social fallout from limerence can be absolutely toxic – as you suggest. And I’m not even talking about people who have affairs. For example, the limerent may feel enraged at the LO for the way they believe the LO has “strung them along”. But the limerent can’t take out that anger on the LO, because – let’s face it – they still kind of idealise the LO. So the limerent might became quite nasty in a rather petty, passive-aggressive, “accidental” manner to other people in their lives (friends & family). All this low-level aggression toward others drives others away. Other people don’t understand why the (rejected) limerent is so cranky. 😉
Hi Sammy, sorry for jumping in, but I think you have summed up the LE so well, especially in terms of how it starts off by feeling really good, followed by not feeling so good when perceived reciprocation stops.
I see your point about LO feeling good that someone likes them, though they want to keep things “under control”. This can especially be true in cases where LO has SO.
In any case, the limerent needs to break their dependence on LO validation, in order to get back their sanity.
The points about not taking LO behavior personally, and the negative effects of LE on our friends and family are also really spot on. Though one can have a tendency to hate LO, we know nothing about the issues that they are facing in their life.
Seeing the life cycle of the whole LE does really help in terms of knowing how to navigate through it.
@ABCD.
“In any case, the limerent needs to break their dependence on LO validation, in order to get back their sanity.”
Thank you for your feedback. I completely agree with you that the limerent needs to break dependency on LO in order to claw back sanity, and sometimes a period of separation is the only way to achieve that, as Lucy (Dr. L’s neuroscientist colleague) suggests.
Basically, the limerent has formed (in their brain, regarding LO) neural pathways of a romantic nature. If one keeps seeing LO and having vaguely romantic interactions with LO, then those neural pathways are only going to grow stronger. So, if limerent and LO remain in contact, boundary-setting is going to be a real challenge!
I feel strategies such as “get to know LO as a real human being” only work when one’s isn’t that deep into the infatuation, and there’s still a window of opportunity to train one’s neural pathways in a more neutral direction toward the (desired) love object. 🤔
I have a “crush” on a young man at the moment. I wouldn’t call it limerence. But this “crush” of mine embodies my LO archetype and by observing him and our interactions, I’ve come to understand what went wrong with my LO/LE many years ago. In other words, I kind of understand how I got sucked into an infatuation…
In high school, I seem to have become limerent for one guy, and then transferred that limerence onto a second guy. Both these infatuations occurred during the same unbroken “altered state”. (There was no drastic change in my mental state between infatuations – just a seamless transition from one LO to the next LO).
The first guy was “hotter”, but the second guy is the one who “broke my heart”. So I guess the second guy is my “LO”, if I could pick only one. An LO is not the hottest guy/girl you’ve ever met and/or flirted with. An LO is the guy/girl you remember as being the one who broke your heart. An interesting distinction, no? “Sorrow” seems to trump “sizzle”. Really, it’s the hottie who should always win first place.
What’s hard to fathom is that if all my LO (second guy) wanted was validation from me, why on earth did he keep me around so long? I mean, I know I’m interesting. But I’m not THAT interesting. 🙄😆
If an LO is deeply embedded in a particular social circle, and things have gotten too complicated, what else is there to do but to avoid entire social circle? (Something I’m aware many people can’t really do?) My XLO abandoned our entire social circle. (Guilty conscience maybe? Or, more likely, a great deal of pressure from his SO). 😜
ABCD and Sammy,
Thanks, I just picked out of your post what I needed at the moment:
„In any case, the limerent needs to break their dependence on LO validation, in order to get back their sanity.“
I think that’s a crucial sign that limerence is conquered, when one isn’t dependent anymore on validation by LO, not waiting for texts or meaningful smiles as the one important thing that makes you feel good.
„I feel strategies such as “get to know LO as a real human being” only work when one’s isn’t that deep into the infatuation, and there’s still a window of opportunity to train one’s neural pathways in a more neutral direction toward the (desired) love object.“
I knew my LO without limerence for a long time, and that’s my hope- that there are other neural pathways already laid than the new limerent ones.
It’s funny, I can literally feel them, the old ones, I just need to get back into them, and I think at the moment I‘m bumping from track to track, trying to change them, sometimes succeeding 💪🏻
@Mila.
“I knew my LO without limerence for a long time, and that’s my hope- that there are other neural pathways already laid than the new limerent ones.
It’s funny, I can literally feel them, the old ones, I just need to get back into them, and I think at the moment I‘m bumping from track to track, trying to change them, sometimes succeeding 💪🏻”
That sounds really funny and sweet, Mila. Like there are two sets of train tracks running in your brain and you have to convince the train to travel on the right track. 😜
I think if somebody in our lives gives us attention and affection, and all of a sudden that person pulls back and stops giving us as much attention and affection, and we feel incredibly hurt by the reduction in attention and affection, that’s a sign we like that person as more than a friend.
I think “feeling hurt” by someone’s emotional withdrawal is often a giveaway we are romantically attracted toward that person, and we want that person to be romantically attracted toward us as well. 🤔
Sammy,
everyone would be hurt if a friend would suddenly pull back every affection, no? Not only if one is romantically invested.
I don’t think that it is a sign of limerence if someone is simply hurt.
Maybe the degree of pain is the difference?
@Mila.
“Maybe the degree of pain is the difference?”
Hm, maybe, yes. Maybe there is a general pain associated with social rejection and a special pain associated with real and/or perceived romantic rejection? 🤔
Sammy,
What about “parental” rejection (at conscious level) in limerence, not 100% romantic or pair-bonding..
@Snowphoenix.
“What about “parental” rejection (at conscious level) in limerence, not 100% romantic or pair-bonding..”
Not entirely sure about the question you wanted to ask? Are you saying that being rebuffed by LO hurts, but this rebuff isn’t necessarily a romantic rebuff and therefore the sting of rejection isn’t always the sting of romantic rejection? That makes sense to me.
I think any hint of rejection from LO hurts deeply. But the reason rejection from LO hurts is because it’s coming from LO. 😉
Sammy, Snow, good morning.
I think what Snow is saying is that the degree of pain of parents rejection is as strong as romantic rejection…? Or that that parent rejection is projected to the romantic rejection? It could be, if it could be traced back to childhood trauma. So what you’re suffering is “early exposure to rejection” by your parents. A sense of abandonment , a sense of loss and rejection. It’s a dormant feeling that now comes to light? Could very well be.
Limerence not only brings romance situations to light but all other difficult situations we have encountered throughout our lives. Limerence, it’s like an awakening of the senses, (the energy acquired while going through limerence being used to confront and an attempt to control your life) making you analyze your entire life and what is its purpose. It’s kind of a new clean slate placed in front of you… Why are we alive? We’re going deeper in the rabbit hole every time…
But a simple question can be: have you ever felt somehow abnormally obsessive about a romantic interest which lasted a painful long period of time? Will need further questions: How long? What were the symptoms? How did you cope?
We will be for ever searching.
Sorry Dr.L, you have a difficult task ahead of you!
Simplify, simplify …
@Nisor.
Hm, yes, all good points.
I actually quite like Dr. L’s original description of limerence:
“I have sometimes felt a romantic infatuation so powerful that it overwhelmed all other concerns in my life. My emotions swung between extreme highs and lows, and my thoughts and dreams were dominated by the other person. It almost felt like I was addicted to them.”
I’m not really sure how it could be modified or improved or simplified? We already have the “overshadowed” suggestion.
“I have sometimes felt a romantic infatuation so powerful it overshadowed all other concerns in my life. My emotions swung between extreme highs and lows, and my thoughts and dreams were dominated by the other person. It almost felt as if I was addicted to them.”
Would limerents readily identify limerence as romantic infatuation? I always struggled with finding the romance in it. Also, I’m disappointed with how few dreams I actually had of my LO…
This is a description of limerence that would adequately capture my experience:
“I have once felt an interest in another person so strong and persistent it overshadowed other aspects of my life. This interest felt like a drug addiction, and included frequent mood swings alternating between ecstasy and despair. My thoughts took on a life of their own and I viewed the other person as almost perfect.”
Sammy, Nisor,
You both are so insightful in my situation, I love your questions and interpretations which spin my head on my past and current emotional and psychological life!
Sammy,
“Are you saying that being rebuffed by LO hurts, but this rebuff isn’t necessarily a romantic rebuff and therefore the sting of rejection isn’t always the sting of romantic rejection? That makes sense to me.”
Precisely. As you know my the latest LE, in which I projected my ideal, surrogate parental figure onto LO and did not consciously expect romantic reciprocation but a parental one. But his (un)intentional “rebuff”, even small or “ordinary”, was amplified by my altered perceptions and felt like the parental rejection/ignorance I experienced during my traumatic childhood. I even got him out to a park back in 2021, directly told him he constantly triggered my abandonment issue and asked him to be aware of such pains.
But inexperienced in understanding such psychological matters, he continued triggering my cptsd pains, seemingly without any intention. My deeply hidden cptsd wounds were soon or latter all bubbled up in the first 4 years. I knew it was not romantic rejection, because I did not consciously want to and could not be romantically or physically get close to him. He also said in writing that all intimacy would be reserved for his family, which was fine with me, because it would make him fit in the role of the parental Phantom.
“I think any hint of rejection from LO hurts deeply. But the reason rejection from LO hurts is because it’s coming from LO. “
In my case, it’s from my past Parents; LO reenacted their role, sometimes like Dad, more life Mom. From his side or third party, it looked like he’s keeping a social boundary; but to my child’s mentality — distinctively around 6 years old, the rejection was parental!
Nisor, “I think what Snow is saying is that the degree of pain of parents rejection is as strong as romantic rejection…? “
It’s worse than romantic rejection if one’s mentality is that of a wounded child — I clearly remember that my psyche WAS 6 years old when I was composing those monologue, and I was often thrilled (LE’s high) because finally a Phantom parent was listening to me! Of course, the content was more related to growup topics, particularly psychology, therapies, and my cptsd.
“Or that that parent rejection is projected to the romantic rejection? “
Yes. Other side might have treated as “romantic turndown”, but on my side, it’s parental rejection. I told LO a couple of time, he seemed not to believe me.
“It could be, if it could be traced back to childhood trauma. So what you’re suffering is “early exposure to rejection” by your parents. “
Precisely, for the first 4 years of my limerence!
“A sense of abandonment , a sense of loss and rejection. It’s a dormant feeling that now comes to light? Could very well be.”
Yes, they were evoked by LO’s casual or intentional “avoidance” perceived by my highly sensitive “child’s” eyes.
“Limerence not only brings romance situations to light but all other difficult situations we have encountered throughout our lives.”
Based on Tennov, other psychological issues, such as cptsd, OCD, tend to lead one into limerence. Then in return, limerence can trigger one’s deeply hidden/forgotten traumas or other histories.
“Limerence, it’s like an awakening of the senses, (the energy acquired while going through limerence being used to confront and an attempt to control your life) making you analyze your entire life and what is its purpose. It’s kind of a new clean slate placed in front of you… Why are we alive? We’re going deeper in the rabbit hole every time…”
Yep, the suffering of limerence could lead one into a profound quest for understanding of one’s past and making some sense out of it. I did not try to get rid of limerence (no idea what it was) but “indulged” in it so as o deal with my dormant childhood wounds, which was first triggered by the sudden death of Father. Then immediately I projected my idealized parental phantom to LO; of course, the Glimmer always took place 7 months prior to Father’s passing.
@CamillaGeorge.
If we want to relate my comments back to the binary question. Maybe rejection from an LO is much more painful and much harder to get over than rejection from a romantic prospect who wasn’t an LO? I think limerents take rejection really hard, as if the whole world has ended, when the latter isn’t exactly the case. 🤔
Yes, Sammy, sums it up perfectly! The non-limerent stable, ‘very different’ feeling relationships are so different in comparison, and rejection too. No comparison. More sadness and pain than intense soul crushing despair. In magnitude and level of insanity; no comparison.
Yes, it’s like being bruised! You are well aware of the change in your thoughts pattern, you’re aware there’s an obsession difficult to handle, you feel lost and helpless as if you’ve been enchanted or something.Its a force stronger than you, you try to fight it but it doesn’t yield. LO is everything and everywhere! It sometimes brings thoughts life is not worth living if LO is not going to be in it. Terrible, terrible ! I’m just speaking of my experience, now going into 20 months, ruminating less intense, more manageable than the first ten months. You only yearn for Freedom of it!
I think, based on my own experience, that limerence is an altered state of mind. I agree with Nisor that limerence is characterised by a “sudden take over” of one’s brain and one’s thoughts, which cannot be controlled in any possible way. Or, at least, one feels one can’t control or direct the phenomenon, despite attempts at doing so. Raised as a Christian, however, a perverse part of my brain says surely limerence can be controlled – everything can be controlled. But I think most people find limerence is characterised by a loss of control over one’s thoughts.
I agree with what other posters have said in previous blog posts that one needs an LO or a potential LO to be “already on the scene” in order for the limerent to enter fully into the limerent state. I.e. if there’s no LO or LOs, there’s no one to concentrate pleasurable fantasies on, nobody to dream about, no relationship to imagine. The altered state requires a human “face/focus” of some sort.
I think I was in the “altered state” of limerence for absolute certain between Nov/Dec 1998 (the end of grade ten in high school) and April/May 2006 (the time of my hospitalisation). So I spent about eight years on a rollercoaster ride that became increasingly distressing and hard to manage. During this time, however, I didn’t stick to just one LO. I feel as if I was SEARCHING for the right LO, and switching between several potential LOs, hoping that one would reciprocate. Limerence for me was the obsessive search for one highly-idealised partner who’d reciprocate. If I had intense feelings, it stood to reason somebody else must have intense feelings. I wanted to track down the individual who had intense feelings for me.
I think a lot of my distress was generated by the fact I couldn’t find a single LO who reciprocated genuinely, but plenty who were willing to give mixed signals. My brain was telling me that I had to find that one person who loves me and accepts me unconditionally. My brain believed in a soulmate fantasy, and I don’t think I needed culture to tell me to go and find a soulmate. I think I had some kind of biological drive to go out and “imprint on” a potential soulmate.
During the altered state of limerence, the conditions inside my mind were very hazy and unstable. I was swinging between bursts of ecstasy (in response to affection) that felt wonderful and crushing depression, sometimes suicidal thoughts. There was lot of crying jags. I felt like a prisoner most of the time, but I couldn’t identify any person or any thing or system that was oppressing me. Limerence for some people truly is “the condition that has no name”.
I think the pleasant, positive aspects of limerence are basically identical to the early stages of romantic love for most people. So a limerent who’s in agony and a non-limerent who happily in love with the limerent (but not limerent for the limerent) might assume that they and their distressed limerent partner are having the exact same emotional experience. The non-limerent who’s merely enjoying the highs of early love won’t experience any of the downs the limerent party will experience. Limerence seems to involve “downs” not found in standard love.
I think, at the time of my hospitalisation, my limerent tendencies had just reached a point where they’d become unmanageable. I think at that point my personality “dissolved”. I became obsessed with getting a straight answer out of my LO of that time. I did get a straight answer out of him – of a sort. (Turns out he was utterly oblivious to my limerence for him, and thought we’d shared a perfectly delightful friendship based on equality). I also became obsessed with building a new personality – a stronger, more authentic personality – since my previous one had dissolved and was apparently incapable of coping with life’s stresses. This “opportunity to rebuild oneself from scratch” for me is the upside of limerence.
“I think most people’s experience of limerence is that it’s an altered mental state – a distinct period in life when you feel like a different person, when your whole emotional being is hijacked by a single focus and overwhelming desire.”
I didn’t feel like a different self during limerence. I assumed that my limerent self was my true self. I felt like the self I had prior to limerence was inauthentic – which it was, because I was mostly meekly obeying orders from grown-ups, and accepting other people’s images of me. I had no clear “self” prior to limerence and limerence felt like an exercise in trying out many different possible selves. 🤔
Sammy, Camilla George hi,
I’m in total agreement of what you two have expressed and exposed here.
I feel limerence revealed my true self, it took me in a journey to review my past love affairs, and my life in general. Many surprises and revelations…
Nisor
I was invited by the pastor this past Sunday at service to come visit on Wednesday for “family night”. They have a meal and fellowship and then some Bible study for men separate from Bible study for men. He has asked me almost every Sunday (been going since November) since my first time if he gave me his phone number and that he says I can reach out to him at anytime. I told him I might come Wednesday night but I didn’t commit to anything. He wants to talk one on one with me and that makes me really nervous for some reason. He’s a very good pastor and is always caring and attentive to all the congregation. I don’t know what to do or if I will go for sure or not. I did honestly admit to him that it is hard for me to open up to people. This place is easy because it anonymous.
Oh Adam, that’s wonderful you’re going constantly to church. Do not be afraid, he’s not going to ask personal questions. Usually they want you to feel comfortable with the brotherhood and help one another. And if anyone needs prayer, they’ll pray specifically for their need . We have a prayer group on Wednesdays, we pray for the church , world problems and each other’s needs. If someone needs prayer for a particular thing you don’t have to specify openly if you don’t want to. I just say, for example, that I’m going through a hard period in my life, and I want the Lord to intercede with his help, or that I feel lost, or that I have a deep sorrow, and that the Lord knows the problem better than me etc. Other times, I specify and it releases a burden in my heart. In James epistle it says to pray for one another to get healed. I love the fellowship, it gives me a sense of belonging and sharing with good hearted people. If the pastor is a good pastor, he’ll tend the sheeps and feed them with care and comfort them with the Word of wisdom. It depends how seriously he takes his calling to the ministry of souls, his personality and education in the faith. We are not an island, we are social creatures who need fellowship with others. Well developed churches have free counseling, weekly courses to increase your knowledge and faith, do social gatherings with specific hobbies etc. example, the ones that like skiing go do that with like people, or mountain climbing, or other sports, learning musical instruments, singing, the women have their own activities with children also; community without loosing your identity as an individual. You participate if you’re interested, or on the things that appeal to you mostly. It’s a whole new world and inspirational. Depends on the church . Check it out and see if it fits your needs. Don’t be afraid, the Lord is your Shepherd! Maybe Momma will come along sometime, we pray. How’s your younger son doing in school, is he applying himself this semester? Your old son and lady friend???
Have a pleasant peaceful week. Hugs.
Both are doing well. Our oldest is going through a bit of a relationship crisis with his lady friend but from what he has said they seem to be willing to work through whatever it is.
The youngest is doing better but will still probably have to attend summer school to catch up so he is ready for his senior year coming up.
I guess I just don’t like being the center of attention. I am not good at accepting help even though I know this whole limerence has set me on a path to find myself again. And while I think that fellowship is a part of what I need I feel apprehensive to reach out for it.
They do have specific prayer at each Sunday service if you want to come to the front of the church. Which I can never do. But yeah you can request specific prayer and people will come up and pray on your behalf. But as of today I think I am going to go tomorrow. I think it will help break the ice for me. So I feel not as a outsider or newcomer still but a part of it all.
Adam, be valiant and go there tomorrow and see how it goes. You don’t have to feel afraid of other people. It is understandable that at the beginning one feels awkward but it’s just our minds playing its tricks on us. I went through it myself, but now I’m daring and participate in prayers in front of everyone. I don’t look at people but my purpose in there; very rewarding sharing with people that appreciate a smile, a hug, communication and understanding. You’ll see you have a lot of talents that you never knew you had before , and sharing to help others is very rewarding. Relax and enjoy the fellowship.
Best wishes and hugs.
@Sammy.
“If an LO is deeply embedded in a particular social circle, and things have gotten too complicated, what else is there to do but to avoid entire social circle? (Something I’m aware many people can’t really do?) My XLO abandoned our entire social circle. (Guilty conscience maybe? Or, more likely, a great deal of pressure from his SO). 😜”
—-
This really sounds like familiar terrain. There seemed to be a lot of uneasy tension with LO at various social events. Though I did not avoid any of these events, handling them was really hard, had tough days both pre and post event. I hope things improve in the future.
@Mila.
“I think that’s a crucial sign that limerence is conquered, when one isn’t dependent anymore on validation by LO, not waiting for texts or meaningful smiles as the one important thing that makes you feel good”.
–
Yes, exactly this! You will get there. I feel I am on the path, with some progress, lets hope I can keep the momentum.
The more I learn about limerence, the harder it is to define in a way that feel satisfactory. We could ask people: “Have you ever had a love that turned your life upside down?” or “Have you ever had an unrequited love that turned your life upside down?” and pretty much everyone could answer yes to the question.
I think, if researchers surveyed people, what researchers would likely find is that there are non-limerents who identify with the limerent condition and limerents who don’t identify with the limerent condition. This is because everyone wants to paint themselves in a favourable light. Everyone feels their “level of desire” for their beloved is special, cosmic, earth-shattering. And everyone fears rejection to some degree. And people can be deeply hurt by non-romantic rejection as well as by romantic rejection. Some people are very sensitive to all forms of rejection.
It seems to me that only limerents know deep in their hearts whether or not what they experienced was limerence or not – there’s an especially deep quality of feeling involved, a total immersion in a fantasy realm, a narrowed focus, dramatic mood swings that are uncontrollable, jealousy, a tendency to hide the depths of one’s feelings, a longing for reciprocation, etc, etc. There’s a bit of delusion going on, but the delusion is always built on reality. And all these markers can be interpreted in a subjective way. The “pain” of limerence is inescapable and yet the “pain” of limerence also feels really good at times, like an old friend.
If limerents fear the researcher is going to say limerence is pathological, limerents are going to play down their negative symptoms. If, on the other hand, non-limerents believe that limerence is a “superior form of love” or carries some kind of social cache, they’re going to exaggerate their remembered degree of attraction. The fact limerence can start out extremely pleasant and turn unpleasant over time (due to LO’s apparent dwindling interest) is also confusing.
You are on to something here, Sammy.
It’s all so subjective. And I think people and especially limerents aren’t always honest with themselves or cannot objectively sort through their feelings and desires, they would maybe unconsciously or even half-consciously paint a picture of their state of mind for a research that’s not really true, or would categorized differently by another person having the same feelings,
Very hard to do an objective survey here.
What about variety of pains, of mental states in limerence, in its different stages?
I have 6-8 states of mind regularly, if not everyday, towards the beginning, middle and ending stage of my LEs/LOs, and it’s tomorrow — literally Tomorrow! depending on which philosophers or writers dancing or whispering in my head… and whether I had meditation/workout or not…
So if researchers or surveys come to me, answers could be soar all over cultural spheres across time and space.
@Snowphoenix.
“So if researchers or surveys come to me, answers could be soar all over cultural spheres across time and space.”
Do you mean your answers to any questions might be influenced by your moods, and your moods tend to fluctuate quite a lot at the moment? 🤔
I think what I’ve gained from LwL is (very slowly) a bird’s-eye view of my limerence. In other words, one has to get high enough up in the air to be able to look down and kind of see the whole sprawling behemoth. 😉
But I think Tennov really knew her stuff, too. I don’t think we should start creating new definitions of limerence. Rather, I think we should ask ourselves how closely our experiences align with Tennov’s original definition. And maybe, when our experiences differ from Tennov’s definition, we should ask ourselves whether or not we’re (out of wild optimism) misrepresenting some aspect of our own experience? 🤔
I kind of believe that limerence is a “creature” like a zebra that can be clearly identified, even if it might look different in different settings. 😉
Sammy,
Do you mean your answers to any questions might be influenced by your moods, and your moods tend to fluctuate quite a lot at the moment?”
I think I meant my answers to any questions would be influenced by my mindsets (not moods) — Stoic, Buddhistic, Existential, Proustian, Neuro-scientific, Western, Eastern, rational, romantic… or combination of 2 or more at the time of being questioned.
”In other words, one has to get high enough up in the air to be able to look down and kind of see the whole sprawling behemoth. “
Agreed. I feel I’m emotionally distanced enough now from all my LEs, that I could talk more clearly about them, even the current one at its end…. I cannot tell you here what I did with LO on the first day of returning to work, under the biggest, shocking “storm” I’ve been unknowingly felt, dreamt, and almost “psyched” its coming…. I’ve never believed Karma stuff, but today, I was awed speechless…. My mood of today: shocked & expected sad&glad, clear-minded&woozy, indifferent&shaky, compassionate&fluky… I was piled up with so many two-faced coins in a single day….
“But I think Tennov really knew her stuff, too. I don’t think we should start creating new definitions of limerence. Rather, I think we should ask ourselves how closely our experiences align with Tennov’s original definition.”
Pondering it over, I now think that only current LE can be considered a true LE with unrequited reciprocation, barrier, and Parental ghost mixed in it. LE experienced in my COO and here are also different, because the emotions and mentality involved – their intensity or variety, were closely tied up with local social environment, virtues of time … What’s why I used words “across cultural space and time”. Tennov’s data primarily came from West.
“And maybe, when our experiences differ from Tennov’s definition, we should ask ourselves whether or not we’re (out of wild optimism) misrepresenting some aspect of our own experience? “
An excellent question! My previous limerences might be funneled out through Tennov’s definition scope.
“I kind of believe that limerence is a “creature” like a zebra that can be clearly identified, even if it might look different in different settings. “
I absolutely adore the comparisons between limerence and zebra — (One of which 🦓 I innocently turned on from afar….) 🙈
@Snowphoenix.
Thank you for your response. 😛
“Pondering it over, I now think that only current LE can be considered a true LE with unrequited reciprocation, barrier, and Parental ghost mixed in it. LE experienced in my COO and here are also different, because the emotions and mentality involved – their intensity or variety, were closely tied up with local social environment, virtues of time … What’s why I used words “across cultural space and time”. Tennov’s data primarily came from West.”
I think, if I remember correctly from Tennov’s book, Tennov thought that limerence was a universal experience. What Tennov would mean by “universal” is that there are features of limerence that remain the same or stable across cultures.
E.g. all limerents, regardless of where they live, would experience mood swings between ecstasy and despair. All limerents would report things such as extreme shyness/racing heart/inability to relate to more than one LO at a time. The limerence of all limerents, regardless of location, would be strengthened by barriers and made possible in the first place by the existence of hope/uncertainty.
In Tennov’s view, limerence all across the world unfolds in a similar way – Glimmer, Crystallisation, Deterioration. So limerence , for Tennov, seems to be an inherited part of human nature. Limerence seems to be an embedded possibility in human DNA. It’s a shared biological potential. But it’s not something everyone experiences.
Sammy,
“What Tennov would mean by “universal” is that there are features of limerence that remain the same or stable across cultures.”
I agree, because human biology/neurology is involved, it’s scientific.
“All limerents would report things such as extreme shyness/racing heart/inability to relate to more than one LO at a time.”
From my observation, different philosophical traditions, e.g. Romanticism vs. Stocism/Buddhism, would impact even limerents, more in INTENSITY of all emotions including love, or limerence. A limerence in the East might just amount to a normal, romantic crush, viewed by a Western eye.
Depending on strength of cultural “brainwash”, duration of limerence varies. Also, I think percentage of limerents/limerence also depends on cultural influence and conditioning, aside from biology. In my COO, I could be categorized as a lunatic (influenced early by Western classical literature, romanticism). Thus I habitually hid my true emotions all the time, even to my close friends. I knew my emotions were very different from what I observed in others, silly, impractical, wishful, fanciful, etc, which would be heavily mocked at.
“The limerence of all limerents, regardless of location, would be strengthened by barriers and made possible in the first place by the existence of hope/uncertainty.”
Not necessary. If barriers are considered “immoral” or “harmful” to one’s wellbeing, people with more Stoic traits tend to serve limerence in cold turkey cut, sheerly with steel will — a “cruel heart”. At least it was with my cases (all reciprocated); In hindsight, I questioned how much of “love” I was really in. The longest LE (also platonic but lacked enough emotional reciprocation) lasted about one year, because I desired LO #3’s validation. Then, my mind and emotions NEVER swung back, not even temporarily. I considered all LEs in COO a “disgrace”, based on my highly immature, black-n-white mentality.
“In Tennov’s view, limerence all across the world unfolds in a similar way – Glimmer, Crystallisation, Deterioration. So limerence , for Tennov, seems to be an inherited part of human nature. “
From COO literature or films, I agree with Tennov. But degrees of limerence vary. Or perhaps people are afraid of showing their strong, unacceptable emotions, so more limerents went on undetected? Nurtured by some Buddhistic traditions, eg. being moderate (in the middle) in everything one does and feels, and lacking a strong sense of individuality, people don’t even grow up autonomic enough — clearly knowing and owning their emotions, while their biological drives are still working “unnoticed/unknown.” Matchmaking in relationship/marriage is still very popular, if not dominant anymore!
“Limerence seems to be an embedded possibility in human DNA. It’s a shared biological potential. But it’s not something everyone experiences.”
I tend to agree with, since neurology is involved. But I suspect there is much, much larger percentage of non-limerents in COO, due to its buddhistic, stoic, unromantic culture….
@Snowphoenix.
“I tend to agree with, since neurology is involved. But I suspect there is much, much larger percentage of non-limerents in COO, due to its buddhistic, stoic, unromantic culture….”
Your observations about cultural differences are interesting…
Apparently, in the West, a lot of our traditional fairytales depict limerence. However, the original endings of these fairytales were often dark or tragic. What modern media corporations have done with traditional fairytales is retold the fairytales, but always with a happy ending!! (Happy endings are easier to market. Happy endings are perhaps considered “family-friendly entertainment”).
In other words, young people in the West no longer grow up absorbing valuable wisdom from folklore. (Valuable wisdom such as “one doesn’t always get what one wants”). Young people grow up with the media message that (a) fairytale romance is normal, and (b) fairytale romance always ends happily. No one in these retold stories ever has to suffer to renounce the love of their life. 🙄🤣
Perhaps the traditional fairytales, with their original unhappy endings, would encourage a more stoical mindset in young Westerners? The revised fairytales encourage entitlement and a lack of familiarity with the idea that love often brings pain as well as pleasure. 😉
Snow, Sammy hi,
I sincerely believe limerence is universal and has the same characteristics everywhere around the world. Many cultures , because of moral standards or family norms, have “learned” how to camouflage it , make believe it’s something that you can do away with by just ignoring it, but deep inside the person suffers alone, by never expressing their feelings or ever being understood. People withdraw to their cocoons… alone and sorrowful . Society makes you feel ashamed to have those feelings, consider you weak or deranged if one persists in having this pining for a loved one. That’s why you have high suicidal rates in certain societies, and people on unneeded medications , or
lives ruined or alone because you’re not supposed to have these deep feelings we call limerence. Also, I noticed by talking to people, many girls did not marry because unrequited love, and suffering silently their whole lives. Others married on REBOUND, and are unhappy on their marriages, or divorce later on.
I know of a sixty year old Caucasian woman , in this country I live in, who fell in love with an African immigrant, 15 years younger than her, she’s married, no children, and she was found out by her niece, the whole family knows about it , and they are treating her like a”crazy case”, her psychiatrist is giving her medication… she barely knew this man, he’s back in his country and the family took her phone from her, so she cannot communicate with him. The family called him to leave her alone and he claims it’s her that have this “thing” in her head! (the thing is limerence ! ) She admitted she’d leave her husband for the African fellow. You can imagine, this is a scandal in here, shameful for the family and now this woman is looked at as “not normal “. I know of this story because her mother is an acquaintance of mine, I told her about limerence and have her daughter look at LwL Blog, but they go by what the psychologist says. ( don’t think they even bother to look it up).) Narrow minded people … you cannot insist lest you become a pest. But it’s a sad thing to know of this case, and to know that science has not come out clean with limerence material and teaching psychologists, therapists etc of this “limerence bug”🐞… Although people don’t know “properly” about stoicism,” or studied it, they’re practicing it without knowing it. That is: many people just put on a stoic front to deal with limerence, calling it an obsession or that is not normal or that one is weak. Then take the suffering inside for years on end, living unhealthy , miserable lives.
You know, feelings is a very sensitive topic to talk about, is considered weakness when you are limerent , and most people dismiss talking about their feelings in general.
My reasoning is that there’re more limerents out there that we can ever know of. Just a few dare search and talk about it. By the way, I didn’t tell my acquaintance that I’m limerent… you see the hypocrisy? That’s the society we live in today , hiding Sammy’s “ZEBRA” when it’s convenient, but that we know and see it’s there all the time
and everywhere, any background!
I really wish and pray Dr.L’s book becomes the greatest success there ever was by bringing this subject to light once and for all to all the world and all ethos.
Weekend near… resting time …
Have a great day you all beautiful people!
@Nisor.
Aw, Nisor. That was a beautiful post. I know you sound a little upset, but I found your comment comforting to read because you voice feelings that a lot of people have. The fact you as an older person and as a female voice these feelings to me lends legitimacy to these feelings. (I feel that if an older person or someone of the opposite sex has had these feelings too, then I’m not completely crazy. The feelings are quite real, if a little perplexing).
Now I’m swinging back to thinking “Pan” wasn’t my LO. “Christ/Galahad” was my LO. The reason for the switch is I did have many, many dreams about Galahad – as Dr. L’s proposed definition suggests – and I think my desire to get to know this guy was in part inspired by a dream (after he showed some interest in me, of course.
I don’t pursue strangers). 🙄😆
I knew this guy for about six years before limerence struck. And we knew each other in late childhood too, and had a perfectly ordinary friendship then, so that fact alone should have prevented limerence from occurring. (I.e. no romantic spark should have developed in later life due to deep familiarity with each other’s personalities).
I woke up one morning, and it was like the outline of his face was floating before my eyes, and the image of his face floating before my eyes was very, very beautiful. I suppose my experience might be comparable to a medieval saint of the Catholic tradition having a vision…
So what is limerence? To me, “infatuation” is a really good word. “Obsession” is a really good word. “Unrequited love” is probably the best term I can come up with for my own case. But, of course, not everyone’s feelings are unrequited or obviously unrequited.
Limerence kind of bleeds into everything. Limerence isn’t sex, but it bleeds into sex. Limerence isn’t religion, but it bleeds into religion. Limerence isn’t music or food or landscapes, but soon all those things too can become contaminated (or enhanced) by limerence…
I DO think there are many women around the world, especially educated or upper-class women, who avoid marriage due to a limerence episode they haven’t been able to resolve satisfactorily in their own minds. I don’t think these women should be considered “not normal”. I think there is something honourable in trying to understand what happened to one, and what it all means. 😉
Sammy,
Your bird’s eyes from distance are sharper than a near-sighted observer on the landscape of cultural phenomena. I almost never took a look at some differences between Western fairytales and Eastern folklores.
(Apparently, in the West, a lot of our traditional fairytales depict limerence. However, the original endings of these fairytales were often dark or tragic. “
What fairytales I had read or was read were rarely about people’s emotions, but either their inner strength trying to conquer all sorts of barriers in their personal lives, or let the fate decide — quite superstitious. In the arena of romance, the power of Fate and other uncontrollable forces in life are emphasized, and tragic ending dominates most of romantic stories.
Yet, the beauty of tragedy is vividly depicted and almost amplified, making those sad stories legendary, constantly reminding the reader his or her limited power in the imperfect world. I remember I often sighed after listening to those tales and gradually a general pessimistic view was formed. Yet a habit of mental preparation for worst to happen in any arena was slowly formed as kids grow up. Later, when a worst occurred, it did not shock to one’s core. They’d console themselves, “I already thought of this and prepared for this day…. It’s a fate, beyond my power…” then move on.
From what I’ve learned, this is one essence of Buddhism as well as Stoicism — always prepare for the worst, but trying one’s best. Meanwhile, one learns to embrace one’s inner thoughts and emotions without broadcasting them, so as to avoid amplifying particular negative emotions (making them even more unmanageable), or external mockery, criticism, or even enemy’s attacks. Easterners in general are much more reserved, seemingly have many more introverts.
“What modern media corporations have done with traditional fairytales is retold the fairytales, but always with a happy ending!! “
That brings false hopes, creating “harmful” illusions about life, making kids self-defenseless in their mentality and psychology. Later when that general 80% of bad lucks strike in their personal life, particularly in emotional arenas, they crumble or breakdown. They frantically seek external “experts’” helps or pills, yet we all know that true, final solutions or salvations come from our mental “tools”, perhaps with some external assistance. Effective mental tools can only be made and refined from within, starting young.
I’ve annoyingly repeated that in the West (in their stories), heroes are worshiped, conquering outside world is glorified, winner takes it all… negative emotions are shoveled under the rug and failures are shamed. In the East:
The outside world (as well as others) is fateful, out of individual’s control (Stoicism). Therefore, one focuses on CULTIVATING inner self with all sorts of practical skills and wise thinking (while “hiding” emotions), starting young. In doing so, one gains some senses of “controlling” instead of always floating like tree leafs in life.
“In other words, young people in the West no longer grow up absorbing valuable wisdom from folklore. (Valuable wisdom such as “one doesn’t always get what one wants”). Young people grow up with the media message that (a) fairytale romance is normal, and (b) fairytale romance always ends happily. No one in these retold stories ever has to suffer to renounce the love of their life. “
From an Eastern point of view, Western fairytales/media are simple-minded and unwise, focusing on instant emotional gratification for wishful readers/audiences. More people here object sad stories or hide pains (even physical ones as if they’re shameful), while in the East, dealing with pains is considered an effective tool to strengthen one’s mind and willpower. Of course, no one actively searches for such a tool, it inevitably creeps into EVERYONE’s life sooner or later in all societies.
“Perhaps the traditional fairytales, with their original unhappy endings, would encourage a more stoical mindset in young Westerners? “
Absolutely! Stoical mindset is NOT about controlling or repressing one’s emotions, but watch them with an inner keen eye without acting on them in a rush, then gradually digest them with personally effective ways. I think we can apply this to our heightened “pains” in limerence.
“The revised fairytales encourage entitlement and a lack of familiarity with the idea that love often brings pain as well as pleasure. “
I know my Buddhist friend would comment on this: such fairytales are sheerly stupid and harmful to young mind, leading it to unavoidable mental and emotional disasters (check the raising suicidal rate in upper-middle class!) . Sometimes, I get angry to deal with those college kids with such a strong sense of entitlement even after the Pandemic, which should have made them ponder over one’s limitation.
I Suffer a Phobia Called Hope
Maya Abu Al-Hayyat
translated from the Arabic by Fady Joudah
Each time I hear that word
I recall the disappointments
that were committed in its name:
the children who don’t return,
the ailments that are never cured,
the memory that’s never senile,
all of them hope crushed
beneath its wings as I smash
this mosquito on my daughter’s head.
*
The grieving have only the unknown.
It’s their only staple and inheritance.
Pain has no logic. All things redeem
the grieving except your rational questions.
*
I wish that no one goes
and no one comes.
All going is a stroke of myth
and each return
a punctured lung.
Yes Sammy, I’m upset when I myself and many others suffering from limerence had to do research in order to find out what’s we’re suffering from while the psychological community is sleeping in its laurels … not paying attention to the “zebra” or dismissing it altogether. It’s pathetic to have some limerents go for therapy and find out the therapist knows nothing about your ailment and you have to teach them what limerence is! Meanwhile the limerent is desperate looking for answers, mind all twisted and making the wrong and stupid moves towards LOs that would cost them their marriage, unhappiness and much suffering all around them, until they find Dr. L’s blog to learn that what they have is limerence. Limerence! And to think that millionaires give lots of money for different types of research on things that are not so important at all, while Dr. L is struggling to have enough financial help to put up a survey !
I like it when you compare the face of your LE showing up as a vision. Those faces surely show up something like a vision ! Unexpectedly!
We will, (science) have to dig deep down on how the emotional part of us plays the greatest roll in our lives and we’re not even scratching the surface!
Sharing hugs.
Nisor,
“ I sincerely believe limerence is universal and has the same characteristics everywhere around the world. Many cultures , because of moral standards or family norms, have “learned” how to camouflage it , make believe it’s something that you can do away with by just ignoring it, but deep inside the person suffers alone, by never expressing their feelings or ever being understood. People withdraw to their cocoons… alone and sorrowful . Society makes you feel ashamed to have those feelings, consider you weak or deranged if one persists in having this pining for a loved one.”
I totally agree with you here, the phenomenon you just described definitely exist in my COO, but we rarely hear about those private, very painful emotions, because they’re well hidden. However, due to Buddhist’ pessimistic attitudes or our general lower expectations from life and others, the intensity of some negative emotions, such as limerence, is lower than here. For the similar LE, a Western might suffer 9 out of 10 in degree, an Eastern, 5 or 6 out of 10 in degree.
“lives ruined or alone because you’re not supposed to have these deep feelings we call limerence. “
This happens in my COO, but the rate is very low. Practicality dominates, as well as the community and peers’ pressure, so many get married despite it is not ideally romantic or matching. A huge different feature in western vs. eastern relationship is: in the latter, couple compromise far more… the doctrine goes like, “when single, you open two eyes; when married, keep one shot.” People don’t always insist right vs. wrong. Harmony is stressed and pursued in all relationships in the East.
I’ve told the story here: two friends drinking chatting about a math equation. The correct guy acknowledges the other’s belief “11+12=24” — “You are right, let’s continue our drink!
Under this principle, a relationship could stand many challenges a couple faces, a lot of which are ego, controlling related. My point here is by ratio, more singles are in the West, not just because covert limerence, but people don’t focus on harmony, essential in a workable marriage or other relationships.
Your story of 60 yrs old woman is really sad! Living in a really liberal, cosmopolitan environment for a while, one forgets how many conservative and narrow-minded people still out there damaging and ruining others’ life!
“That is: many people just put on a stoic front to deal with limerence, calling it an obsession or that is not normal or that one is weak. Then take the suffering inside for years on end, living unhealthy , miserable lives.”
Stoic front is quite different from Stoic lifestyle; the latter will serve like mental shield preventing and protecting one from getting emotional hurt. I think limerents here agree that limerence is an obsession, if not a hardcore addiction (or worse). Whether the altered mind is considered “normal” or not, Dr L has a say on that from neurology perspective. And if one does not remove limerence, he or she will suffer miserably, possibly for years.
“You know, feelings is a very sensitive topic to talk about, is considered weakness when you are limerent , and most people dismiss talking about their feelings in general.”
This is true in my COO, and I still have troubles to tell you guys about all my feelings… either uncomfortable or embarrassed. Plus, this is a public domain, who knows who is there listening! My private emotions are precious, why let faceless ghost peek at them? If you’re in front of me, I’m certain I’ll reveal more, the same goes with Sammy, who is brave to tell and analyze his feelings here.
“My reasoning is that there’re more limerents out there than we can ever know of. Just a few dare search and talk about it.”
Definitely true.
“By the way, I didn’t tell my acquaintance that I’m limerent… you see the hypocrisy? That’s the society we live in today , hiding Sammy’s “ZEBRA” when it’s convenient, but that we know and see it’s there all the time and everywhere, any background!”
That’s not hypocrisy. To survive or thrive in any social settings, we have to put a mask on externally, plus most of others, except closest friends/confidants, do not want to see or hear about all our insides, either. I’ve learned my lesson by over-revealing and over-sharing, and ended up pushing LO away.
I love “zebras”, they are so unique!
Hugs, cheer up!
Snow,
I keep the part where you say you “shared” too much information to your LOs. Definitely, you shouldn’t share more of your past to LOs than is needed. Sometimes the information may be used against you if the affair goes down south. Also, not to colleagues, or the so called “friends “. Certain things need not be shared that one might regret later on. I used to trust too much to friends and tell them things I later regretted. They would pass along the “information “ to someone else, it becomes a chain reaction… and it finally gets back to you. I learned my lesson too, fortunately, not too late.
Believe it or not, my SO never asked me about my past? I never felt the need to tell him either. He told me about his past though I didn’t ask him to do so. I have heard it bothers men to hear a woman talk about their ex affairs. They don’t want to know. Have you ever watched John Gray , the one that wrote the book , Women are from Venus, men are from Mars? (Never read the book) He “trains “ women how to deal with men’s intrinsic mentality. Many of his views , as a men, I think are interesting to know if not to ponder on it. We’re all such strange lovely creatures!
How’s your piano lessons going?
Have a great day! Hugs to last all weekend.
Darling Nisor,
Unfortunately, all the revealing and sharing were done long before I knew about limerence and LWL — before June 2021, when I thought I could trust his surrogate “parenthood” and revealed one piece of my history. He “abandoned” me right on the spot by saying, “I don’t think I’ll have that much time for you anymore (as a listener of my stories).…” I regretted it to no end for such a stupidly trustful sharing and later accused him in person for such a “betrayal” even as a just as a “friend” he claimed! That betrayal was one of the deepest pains in my LE.
Other than that, I believe he never revealed my confessional missives to anyone before destroying them as I had requested. There was no inappropriate languages and contents as a colleague—friend or his surrogate “child”, besides my personal, historical stories which I do not wish others to know. So far, LO still appears and behaves as a decent (at least on surface) scholar, he never forgets curtesy or loses composure even while “angered” by my written outburst.
“ Have you ever watched John Gray , the one that wrote the book , Women are from Venus, men are from Mars? (Never read the book)
I read the book a long time ago, and forget a lot of the content. But I remember I thought it was a bit generalized and comical, because I thought I was brought up as an atypical woman without enough traditionally defined femininity. Maybe I’ll pick up the book again.
My piano lessons are at its hard stage: practicing with two hands in different keys and different finger strength. But I have not skipped a single day of drills.
Hugs to you for the weekend!
Oh Snow, you don’t have to read the book of John Gray again, just watch an episode on one of his interviews, he always repeats himself about men’s hormones testosterone and women’s hormones estrogen, that they make a whole difference in behavioral relationships of the sexes. I’m not sure if that’s scientifically proven, but it could certainly be true. No doubt men are really much different than women. I can tell by my father, uncles, , my brothers, my male relationships, my SO, my own male child, and now my grandchildren. There’s definitely a great great difference, specifically on how they handle feelings compared to a woman . Also their strength and endurance and resilience are very much stronger . No doubt about it. I know I’ve a strong character, but physically weak, and very sentimental ; and very feminine, you can tell from far far away that I’m 💯 female. I Love being a woman, while admiring and cherishing the sexiness of male strength , athleticism, and their kindness and sensitivity and protection towards women. Now that I’m so old and have free time to observe , I can observe and appreciate young men in the handsomeness of their bodies! They look awfully healthy and beautiful. Even some older males can give an aura of beauty and strength, health and kindness and enigmatic warmth. I wish I was twenty five y/o again, I’d be so flirting with them males… ( I was never like that when young, now I’m daring and tell young boys “they’re beautiful “ and they blush! I fool around them in a benign way in front of my SO.( when we go to restaurants , the waiters, or salesmen ) I like to tease them and make them conscientious of their beauty plus wisdom and how to handle women.
There’s nothing like a pleasant smile from them! And they feel good about it.
Glad you’re faithful to your piano lessons, new LO.
I didn’t like the response of LO of your revealing to him your most inner secrets. He sounds very dismissive, cruel and impolite. He could’ve used some tact handling this. Anyway, you got your answer, he unmasked himself towards you. Take it like a lesson you’d not forget. It would help you get him off your head also. You don’t need him. You’ve come a long way to look back, now you await a new tomorrow full of bright sunshine and new adventures. You’ll see. You’ll be totally FREE!
Always wishing you the best. Bear hugs.
@Snowphoenix.
“Stoic front is quite different from Stoic lifestyle …”
This observation is gold! It explains to me where I’ve misunderstood your point of view in the past. I.e. there’s a difference between living a life informed by stoicism (stoic lifestyle) and just pretending not to have feelings when hanging around some LO (putting on a stoic front). 😉
“… the latter [stoic lifestyle] will serve like mental shield preventing and protecting one from getting emotional hurt.”
I’m not sure if a stoic lifestyle prevents one from ever experiencing emotional hurt. But I think a stoic lifestyle would help one keep all hurts in proper perspective. 🤔
“I think limerents here agree that limerence is an obsession, if not a hardcore addiction (or worse). Whether the altered mind is considered “normal” or not, Dr L has a say on that from neurology perspective. And if one does not remove limerence, he or she will suffer miserably, possibly for years.”
I think there are some stages of limerence where the “misery” is more intense and pervasive than others. If the feelings are reciprocated early on, I’m not sure if there’s much unhappiness to be had at all. Perhaps when one still earnestly desires a limerent bond and hasn’t been able to get a read on the LO, and one isn’t in a relationship with LO, then the misery is most intense… But the elements of “hope” and “uncertainty” both have to be in play still. 🤔
I.e. the limerent must still want a relationship with LO, and hasn’t got a clear yes or no from LO regarding LO’s interest levels.
Towards the end of limerence, I think limerence becomes mostly an excuse not to focus on one’s own life and pursue relationships (platonic or romantic) with people right under one’s nose. The misery does lessen a lot toward the end. As Dorothy Tennov herself noted, limerence can’t come about unless there is a pre-existing desire in the limerent for limerence. I guess the limerent wants someone else to spend a lot of time thinking about them too!! 😜
Sammy,
“there’s a difference between living a life informed by stoicism (stoic lifestyle) and just pretending not to have feelings when hanging around some LO (putting on a stoic front). “
Yes, precisely, that’s the difference between big “S” and small “s”. (I always used capital S). I should have used a more accurate word, “mentality” — Stoic mentality, eg. Others’ thoughts and behaviors, the world (natural or manmade phenomena) are ALWAYS out of one’s mind’s control — wishful thinkings.
“… the latter [stoic lifestyle] will serve like mental shield preventing and protecting one from getting emotional hurt.”
“I’m not sure if a stoic lifestyle prevents one from ever experiencing emotional hurt. But I think a stoic lifestyle would help one keep all hurts in proper perspective. “
You’re right that emotions will still strike Stoics (otherwise, they’re inhuman), but they would use their Stoic mentality to remove (sooner or later) those unwanted or hurtful emotions. For experienced, authentic Stoics, those hurtful emotions rarely occurs anymore, since their mind understands it’s natural/inevitable for others and the world behavior the ways they do. Earthquakes do happen, our loved ones do die out of illness or old age. The hurt truly comes ONLY from UNEXPECTED. That’s why Stoicism emphasizes to EXPECT the worst to happy — one of their daily mantra.
It was my Father’s advice to me without us knowing what Stoicism was back then, but I was a poor student after one LE after another. My cptsd beat up Stoicism until 2019. I wrote to ask one of Stoic teachers how one deals with cptsd ( often subconsciously triggered), he never replied me. So I have questioned Stoicism’s mechanism in handling one’s psychological traumas and subconscious urges.
“I think there are some stages of limerence where the “misery” is more intense and pervasive than others. If the feelings are reciprocated early on, I’m not sure if there’s much unhappiness to be had at all. “
Absolutely, my marriage and its subsequent divorce proved your statement.
“Perhaps when one still earnestly desires a limerent bond and hasn’t been able to get a read on the LO, and one isn’t in a relationship with LO, then the misery is most intense… “ But the elements of “hope” and “uncertainty” both have to be in play still.
If Stoic, she or he would NOT in the first place slip into such a strong desire — limerence, while still pursuing a possible bond with LO. She or he would recognize uncertainty, and hold either no or tiny hope while making appropriate efforts.
“Towards the end of limerence, I think limerence becomes mostly an excuse not to focus on one’s own life and pursue relationships (platonic or romantic) with people right under one’s nose. “
It could be caused by despair, burned out, pessimism towards the future, or a Stoic practice: move on with one’s life in all other areas, considering a truly loving, pair-bonding is out of question for the future.
“I guess the limerent wants someone else to spend a lot of time thinking about them too!! “
What others’ thoughts or emotions, positive or negative, could really do for limerents realistically? Can one realistically feed on, kiss, hug, sex with others’ thoughts and emotions? Raising a dog would be more rewarded.
Dr L: I’m curious about how many limerents carry Stoic traits? Can limerents (if born as one) become Stoic? Or can Stoicism reform/kill limerents in one?
Some Stoicism daily mantras:
Today I might feel disappointed, lonely, depressed, angry, empty, jealousy, anxious, fearful, meaningless, insecure and panic.They are due to my emotional flashbacks. They may come but WILL always pass.
I am dying everyday, and will die at any given moment.
I will fail at whatever I do, and I’ll still try them at my best.
I might end up being alone for the rest of my life, and die alone.
The people I deal with today will be narcissistic, meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, deceitful, jealous, and surly.
I shall meet with interference, ingratitude, insolence, disloyalty, ill-will, and selfishness. All of them are due to offenders’ ignorance of what’s good and evil.
Other people are plants and facts — you can’t change or control them, you may have some impact over them…
Choose not to be harmed, you won’t feel harmed
Don’t feel harmed, and you haven’t been.
It’s foolish, unwise to try to escape other people’s faults, just try and escape your own.
Nisor,
Thank you for referring John Gray’s work, I just listened to a couple of his Youtube episodes and find they’re very helpful, if his claims in “men’s hormones testosterone and women’s hormones estrogen, that they make a whole difference in behavioral relationships of the sexes” are scientifically proven or quite accurate based on some reliable data.
DrL: do you know about John Gray’s theories? How accurate is his data based on biological or neural science?
“No doubt men are really much different than women.”
I did not know about this clearly before, and often thought that at an emotional/mental level, men and women are similar/same. So John Gray’s points of views sound very refreshing to my ears in past few days. I could have avoided so many misinterpreting mistakes and “misbehaviors.” If having practiced in his theory, I could get LO’s EA for a longer period instead of just 6 months or so, before my rosy illusions about him were further damaged by his later shocking behaviors….
“I didn’t like the response of LO of your revealing to him your most inner secrets. He sounds very dismissive, cruel and impolite. He could’ve used some tact handling this. Anyway, you got your answer, he unmasked himself towards you.”
LO was always polite, but cold politeness is far worse than angry burst! From my cptsd child’s perspective, LO was indeed dismissive, cruel and I told him to his face. Perceiving and treating him as a surrogate father, my inner child was daring to say or complain in person or writing frankly, and didn’t care at all whether he’d get hurt or not — a mentality of a self-spoiled child.
Even back then, I was thinking, to leave or stay was his choice and prepared for the worst. You see, a pair-bonding for romance was NOT my conscious goal, but a child-parent surrogate bonding. I don’t believe at all that one can have an authentic romance with a married person (SO was not my concern), particular under a claimed “happy marriage”. That’s why I refused PA offered by LO.
“Take it like a lesson you’d not forget. It would help you get him off your head also. You don’t need him.”
Back then, limerence made me feel I needed a surrogate parent to get over with the grief of sudden lose Father and unavoidable intrusion of Narc Mother. In this sense, LO’s patient nonjudgmental listening, almost like a therapist, served my purpose because LO’s listening was much, much powerful that any professional therapist; no one could prove me WRONG here!
I was grateful. Regardless others’ personality shortcomings, their intentions, one should and needs (for one’s own mental health) to be grateful to others’ even unintended help — a part of Buddhism tradition I grew up with. I expressed my gratitude to LO repeatedly even after his dismissive behaviors hurt me verbally again and again — his existence played double roles simultaneously — healing and further wounding my cptsd. (He could have shot down his social media access to me far earlier or reported/gossiped my behaviors with others, he did not.)
After spring of 2021, LO continued staying and wanted to stay in my life, encouraging me to vent anything I wish, and I did. Why such an “ entanglement” or “addiction” on both sides? God knows!… My case is quite complicated in two levels — conscious and unconscious, which having caused huge misunderstandings on both sides. I do not wish to go into details here.
Then LO’s LO appeared and he began lying to me (worrying about my jealousy, I assume? Understandable? But I am not his SO) about his secret rendezvous. Then I pulled off LC/NC one after another; however, either he hoovered me back or I walked back, we forgave each other and remained superficially cordial. My conscious mind was much weaker than my unconscious that struck me repeatedly in my dreams to end this LE.
“You’ve come a long way to look back, now you await a new tomorrow full of bright sunshine and new adventures. You’ll see. You’ll be totally FREE!”
Yes, after coming to LwL, my need for a surrogate parents is gradually reduced until it’s basically (95%) gone, making it so much easy to go NC in writing. With my newly acquired awareness, hobbies, and practices in Stoic mentality, I feel very peaceful and confident to parent myself now.
The other truth is that I do not want to be TOTALLY free, 95% is fine. My limerence (for a surrogate parent) did not upended my life like many others. My imaginations and reveries always brought me a sense of wonder (so much richer and more colorful than my reality), although I clearly know now they’re absolutely unrealistic. If I lose my imaginations or wishes to imagine, then I’d sink down to the abyss of depression.
Despite LO’s annoying flaws and very hurtful verbal-cruelty (remember I’m very forgiving like Granny and Father), I still sense a part of ME in him (unable to pin down what, which perhaps set off my biggest glimmer in the first place). Therefore, I can’t and won’t completely “abandon” that mysterious part of ME in him….
The previous 6.5 years seems to have never existed… They do NOT exist any longer in Sartre’s existential eyes— we live only for one day from dawn to dusk, tomorrow’s us are brand new, we could reinvent and renew us anyway we want to.
Don’t worry, I have little anxieties nowadays, despite all coming unknowns, including terrible storms, one of which arrived at the opening day of school on 1/16/24. I’m facing a huge new challenge…
Many hugs! Nisor! I hugged you in happy tears in a beautiful green lawn last night in your elegant, whitish dress with a pale blue scarf….
@Snowphoenix.
Not entirely sure if I understand everything in your post. But some general thoughts on Big-S Stoicism in response…
I don’t think many limerents would start out life as self-identified Stoics – at least not in the West. However, I think limerence could prompt one to adopt some principles from Stoicism as one seeks recovery from limerence… 🤔
I think the opposite of limerence (obsession) isn’t indifference. I think the opposite of limerence is “love in moderation”. 😉
The more aware one is of one’s obsessive tendencies, the less likely one is to be wholly engulfed by infatuation. (Because one recognises the LO – no matter how desirable – is a separate entity with a will of their own. And LO’s will may well clash with limerent’s will).
The ancient Greek poet Hesiod said: “In all things, moderation is best.” He wasn’t part of the Stoic school of philosophy, as far as I know. But his line to me sounds like a mantra that a Stoic would appreciate.
I imagine that someone who grew up steeped in Stoicism would likely be surprised by the strength of their limerent feelings, and hence want to question the validity of the worldview they’ve inherited – particularly if their worldview offered no real recognition of and/or no persuasive explanations for such powerful feelings? 🤔
“What others’ thoughts or emotions, positive or negative, could really do for limerents realistically? Can one realistically feed on, kiss, hug, sex with others’ thoughts and emotions?”
With what comic bleakness you frame this question! 😆
I guess, if two people are having intense feelings and intrusive thoughts at the same time, and about each other, that could in theory guide the two of them toward pair-bonding? But I, like most human beings, have never displayed the slightest flair for mind-reading as an art form!! 😉
So, fundamentally, I agree with you: other people’s thoughts and emotions are pretty useless to me since I don’t usually have access to said thoughts/emotions. 😜
Sammy, Snow and all interested in Stoicism:
Sammy says,
“I imagine that someone who grew up steeped in stoicism would likely be surprised by the strength of their limerent feelings, and hence want to question the validity of the world they’ve inherited – particularly if their worldview offered no real recognition of and/or no persuasive explanations for such powerful feelings?”
Oh Sammy, how right you’re! My “first wave of the mind takeover “ was so immense, so great and powerful that any other thought except LOs could fill
or obey my executive brain! All moral standards, all religions teachings, all stoicisms teachings or anything else had no bearing on those first ten months of frenzy!
The lizard brain, “stuck” on LO had the driving seat, all control. No other force could have prevented the endless ruminations ! Past teachings are done with, you’re in a different universe altogether! You have no control of your thoughts, how could any prior teaching help your executive brain if it’s not particularly functioning? All it wants is LO and anything that has to do with LO. Your mind revolves absolutely around LO! Incredible!
But, once the first wave of limerence has passed away, adopting some principles from stoicism as one seeks recovery from limerence is really helpful. As well as Christian’s teaching or any other tools you have learned before to deal with other more”normal “ situations. This, of course
being possible only after the “monster” had let go of some part of your brain… and you stare at reality, then you really need the stoic teachings so you can cope with it. Shush, just remembering it gets me tired! What a battle we’re fighting, and the enemy is strong! we need to win this one at all cost…
Have a great week you all. Sending strength and courage wishes. 🌹
Sammy,
“I don’t think many limerents would start out life as self-identified Stoics – at least not in the West. However, I think limerence could prompt one to adopt some principles from Stoicism as one seeks recovery from limerence… “
As I said, I was “trained” a bit with Stoic principles by COO who did not know the term or its contents. After beginning to learn about it in 2019 on my own, I realized that some of its principles was already in my system, mostly dormant during all LEs.
“I think the opposite of limerence (obsession) isn’t indifference. I think the opposite of limerence is “love in moderation”. “
Yes, agreed. we discussed this idea previously as: Middle-Way – moderation in all things. It’s hard to find that balance, since passion of either direction always tip over the balance.
“The more aware one is of one’s obsessive tendencies, the less likely one is to be wholly engulfed by infatuation. “
True. Keen observations and logical analysis kill all transient emotions.
“The ancient Greek poet Hesiod said: “In all things, moderation is best.” He wasn’t part of the Stoic school of philosophy, as far as I know. But his line to me sounds like a mantra that a Stoic would appreciate.”
Yes, Stoic, the mainstream of my COO stress Moderation. But others’ moderations in showing or controlling their natural emotions turn me off. I like to watch and engage in a range of emotions in their organic form. Who wants to see controlled “exhilaration?”
“I imagine that someone who grew up steeped in Stoicism would likely be surprised by the strength of their limerent feelings.”
Before coming to LwL, I thought such strength of emotions existed in everyone, only that they don’t show it.
“hence want to question the validity of the worldview they’ve inherited – particularly if their worldview offered no real recognition of and/or no persuasive explanations for such powerful feelings? “
Living and working in a highly liberal place nowadays, I no longer have a strong set of worldviews, but I was so frustrated and disheartened that I could not find psychological means to rein my uncontrollable cptsd pains that even damaged my health, including physical one. I wanted to build up a psychological shield, thus a systematic “studying” Stoicism.
“What others’ thoughts or emotions, positive or negative, could really do for limerents realistically? Can one realistically feed on, kiss, hug, sex with others’ thoughts and emotions?”
With what comic bleakness you frame this question!
I was commenting your comments on Tunnov, but I see now that it was partially quoted out of the context —
“The misery does lessen a lot toward the end. As Dorothy Tennov herself noted, limerence can’t come about unless there is a pre-existing desire in the limerent for limerence. I guess the limerent wants someone else to spend a lot of time thinking about them too!! “
“I guess, if two people are having intense feelings and intrusive thoughts at the same time, and about each other, that could in theory guide the two of them toward pair-bonding?”
It did not happen in my platonic LE #1, which seemed (based on his narration in person) to have ruined LO#1’s life, despite he married and had a son. I was more Stoic back then, and it took me a couple of months to get over that limerence, and never turned my head back.
But LO#1’s pure/kind devoted heart, poetry, innocent and romantic eyes stayed with me for years, he set up a “high” standard for my future romance. For a short period of time, LO #7 was jealous of my first memory of LO#1 and that platonic LE, and became so giddy, like a kid, when I told him I could on longer feel anything (aside for deep sympathy) for LO#1, even when I returned to COO and invited LO#1 for lunch, he did not touch a bite and told me about his married life with his son.
So that mutual LE ruined his life, not mine.
@Nisor.
“Oh Sammy, how right you’re! My “first wave of the mind takeover “ was so immense, so great and powerful that any other thought except LOs could fill or obey my executive brain!”
So Cupid’s arrow struck more like a thunderbolt out of the blue? 😉
Wow! I’ve been looking for my limerent tribe and I think I’ve found it! I’ve suffered from limerence for many years. My current LO is someone I worked with briefly about 25 years ago. I don’t think we ever spoke but he used to stare at me in a very flirtatious way. I would just look away because I was shy. I saw him coaching youth basketball a few years ago and I caught him staring directly at me. He looked away as soon as I met his stare. I didn’t think much of it then, but for some reason I started thinking about him four or five months ago and now I’m obsessed. He’s not someone I would typically be attracted to, but I am for some reason. I spend a lot of time on his social media pages (incognito). I also spend a lot of time researching his ex-wife as well. I don’t have any contact with him, so he knows nothing about my obsession. I really wish I could stop, but I don’t know how. I’m so glad I found this page.
Hi Hope. Just curious – have you recently met him physically, or have you become limerent just by replaying the past interactions in your head?
Getting the urge to check LO social media pages can be very strong, it would be a good idea to dial back on it, and try not to look.
NC – whether physical or virtual needs to be attempted to feel better.
Good luck!
I just want to also say, it makes the categorising harder when you are discussing a limerence experience that you’ve interrupted in time or via strong self-control.
In the former case, you may have interrupted it before the point of no return, but clearly if you weren’t going to intervene then it was going to go on to be full-blown obsession with you stuck in it.
In the latter case, if you interrupt it with self-control, you may have trouble feeling all your emotions but you will still have all the other symptoms of limerence and person addiction alright. Or you may feel all your emotions either immediately or with a delay, but you may have predominantly more negative than positive emotions. You may struggle really hard with not being stuck but be stuck anyway.
My experience with limerance, and this is totally anecdotal, shows an association with ADHD. The prevalence of ADHD in the adult population is around 5% also. Predisposition to obsession and addiction is closely aligned with ADHD and having a sticky attentional switch that latches on and doesn’t let go. That’s what it’s like being a ‘dopamine miner’!
Hi Yvonne,
I also wonder about this. I am surprised that I do not see more literature / lived experience discussing the possibilty of a link. Hyperfocus and addictive personality being very common to both.
Daydreaming as well (in the inattentive ADHD type).
Best wishes!
@Dr. L, this is a very interesting research project. Will you be going through your university and using a survey tool like Qualtrics, or do you intend to reach the general public through social media? If your target audience is the general public, how would the average person find out about the survey? And would it be limited to the UK or be international in scope? Finally would you pay people to respond? I’ve heard of platforms like SurveySparrow that have live online audience panels and are good for interactive surveys (but no personal experience with it). Gartner, the research & consulting company, reviews and compares different products & tools including survey tools. You can see how SurveySparrow compares to Qualtrics, for example.
Thanks for sharing this here; it’s really interesting to think that we could participate in this contribution to science.
For the US, you could look into Ipsos Knowledge Panel – https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/solutions/public-affairs/knowledgepanel
I would say a question you should ask is: “Did succeeding in ‘love’ have to come FIRST before you were able to succeed in ‘life’?” Or another way of asking the same question: “Did the self confidence you needed to begin pursuit of your lifes goals first hinge upon social acceptence, of you, by certain people — especially acceptance by people you were attracted to?”
How long did it take you to heal ? What did you do ? How did you start ? Which kind of therapy ?
I am curious.
Thanks. Your blog is extremely helpful and came to a moment where I am finally ready to read it actually.
Hope you feel this is relevant coming from a ?non-limerent.
I share my life in the UK with my loving SO, my long-term partner of twenty years. I am not looking for anyone else in my life. My SO has had a relatively recent significant LE(which many of you supported me though) which I am pretty confident he has now come through and which almost broke my heart. We have a comfortable fulfilling life together with many shared, and some differing, interests. We have a loving relationship, both emotionally and sexually and whilst not wealthy we have a comfortable lifestyle and live within our means.
I spend two months of the year with my children and grandchildren in another part of the world. On my last visit in March 2023 I happened to meet a very nice man. He is interesting, intelligent, presentable, of a similar age, married. We met a couple of times and became friends. I believe there was a ‘glimmer’ and that it was probably mutual.
I am with family at present and after no contact for a year, and hardly a thought about him, we arranged to meet up again on this visit. He is still as interesting, presentable etc. The glimmer is still there so why don’t I become limerent?…obviously I can’t speak for him!
If my mind is drawn to him, I immediately distract myself with long-established techniques.
I focus on the loving and real relationship I have with my SO and remind myself that actually I don’t know this other person very well.
I manage my friendship with him openly using the shared (with my SO) email account for all communication.
I think of the ‘ glimmer’ as a trick of the mind, something that was useful in earlier times when finding a compatible and loving mate was essential for me… I work best when part of a couple.
So, am I limerent but have naturally acquired the techniques required to put L back in its box when not required or potentially risky?
Am I a non-limerent who whilst recognising the possibilities in a potential mate naturally doesn’t wander off down the limerent rabbit-hole?
Am I slightly limerent, on that sliding scale mentioned in the blog?
I recognise I have been in this situation before, about twenty-five years ago. That situation was very different; I was in an abusive marriage with four children. Whilst the appeal of another romantic relationship in my life was inviting, I knew that it would complicate the situation we were in and therefore rejected the potential LE using similar techniques as above. I kept a journal at that time, at my mother’s home, which has made interesting reading.
I hope these reflections are helpful, Dr L. You are doing a good thing with your work.
Welcome, Kensa, and thanks for your thoughtful message. It’s really helpful to hear the non-limerent perspective. I think the experience you describe is a good indication of what “non-limerence” is like – you recognised this gentleman as unusually attractive, interesting, and desirable, but were able to moderate your emotional response and keep a clear sight of the risks of getting too involved. You sensed a connection, but did not get caught up in runaway excitement, or intoxication. I guess a good parallel is for people who enjoy drinking alcohol, but don’t like the feeling of being blind drunk (or hungover), and so stop drinking before it’s too late.
I also like your phrase of not “wandering down the limerent rabbit-hole”. For limerents, there is a combination of not realising where they are wandering, finding it so amazingly energising and enlivening that they want to keep exploring, and once they’ve tumbled all the way down the rabbit hole it is very hard to get back out!
Thanks again for sharing your perspective. It’s very helpful.