The last post was all about the need to be decisive when living a purposeful life, but, like many aspects of self development, it is easier said than done.
Part of the reason is that we all have our own unique vulnerabilities and limitations. Generally, fear of some sort is at the root of indecisiveness, but it isn’t always the same type of fear. Managing your own specific fears that are keeping you trapped in analysis paralysis will require a personalised coping strategy.
Perhaps you fear losing social status, or looking foolish, or making an irreversible change that you regret, or losing privacy and feeling “exposed”, or losing the good opinion of others, or feeling overwhelmed. Maybe all of the above. Fear is a very personal matter.
Similarly, indecision is sometimes focused on a specific aspect of life – say, what to do about your smothering limerence – but other times it is a much bigger problem that comes up for even trivial choices, like what to have for lunch.
That diversity means, of course, that there is not a universal solution to the question of how to be more decisive. You will first need to get to the bottom of what is causing your internal resistance to change. That will require deep work, and may take time, so a pragmatic strategy that you can try immediately is to experiment – try out different methods for becoming more decisive, tailored to your own situation, and see how well they work.
In that spirit, here are three videos that I found thought-provoking and useful, and which provide three different approaches to the decisiveness problem:
1. Fear of making a hard choice
Here’s an inspiring presentation for those who know they have to make a big, difficult decision:
2. Generalised indecision
A witty, analytical review of how different people make decisions, and why we can become trapped in indecision:
3. Who am I?
A different way of looking at personality and persona, and why decisions are best made in moments of clarity. The soundest decisions come from that quiet part of yourself that is found in peace, rather than the public-facing version of yourself that worries about ego.
In that terribly hackneyed modern phrase, becoming more decisive is a journey. As you become more practiced at making decisions about small matters, the habit becomes ingrained, and the psychological resistance (and fear of making the wrong choice) reduces.
And that makes the big decisions easier too.
Nisor says
I don’t dwell too much or too
long on a situation when making a decision. I go by my gut urging me. Usually it tells me, ‘you’re stagnant here, got to go forward , got to move.’ Of course I judge and consider the options, put in the balance the pros and cons, and if at peace with my mind I make the move, no matter what’s left behind. So far it worked out very well, from changing schools, countries, jobs, where to live, and the most difficult ones breaking relationships and choosing a long life SO.
F.E.A.R. has two meanings:
Forget everything and run-or Face everything and rise.
snowphoenix says
I have intuitively, successfully run away from unwanted schools, jobs, places to live…. , but not my mind with its emotions, thoughts, neurological or psychological actions and reactions, such as LE…. I am no longer running to any external places or (in)tangible things, but internally face and stay with my Self. I’ve risen a lot by not looking without.
I agree there are times when sounding pragmatic and logistical decisions need to be made, shown in the 2nd video. But there are also time when change of personality/persona are called, as shown in the 3rd video, in order to feel inner peace and joy, as well as make wise decisions.
I have learned a hard truth — One cannot run away from oneself. Face and deal with one’s psychology (mentality + emotions + spirituality) is most important no matter where we go or what we do.
C for cat says
Thank you Dr L, I will look at those videos. I wonder whether the fact that I am neurodivergent (self-diagnosed autistic) may go some way to explaining why I struggle so much to make decisions and cope with uncertainty and lack of clarity. I am also not great with change unless it’s me prompting it. Fear is a major part for me I think; I feel the need to know what the outcome will be before I make a decison. I usually have the same takeaway order in case I don’t like something new and buying stuff online overwhelms me with the sheer number of options and reviews etc.
I’d be interested to know whether it’s common for limerents to be neurodivergent. I wonder whether it could play a part in falling into an LE – that we can misinterpret the behaviour of our LO, fall so quickly into an LE and feel such a need for clarity and definite outcomes.
Thank you for your blog. However I feel there always seems to be a post that’s relevant and helpful.
MJ says
“That we can misinterpret the behaviour of our LO, fall so quickly into an LE and feel such a need for clarity and definite outcomes.”
I know I am guilty as hell over this one. I fell like a plane out of the sky for LO and it’s never happened like that with anyone. I think I expected more clarity in the beginning, but through ridiculous inaction on my part, never got it. I can’t necessarily say I am fearful when it comes to making choices. I’m probably just more hasty when the time comes to have to make them. Thereby not having the best outcomes in the end. Hence, the languishing state I appear to be in now.
Sammy says
“I’d be interested to know whether it’s common for limerents to be neurodivergent. I wonder whether it could play a part in falling into an LE – that we can misinterpret the behaviour of our LO, fall so quickly into an LE and feel such a need for clarity and definite outcomes.”
@C for cat.
I would identify myself very loosely as neurodivergent – a self-diagnosed autistic, like yourself. 😉
Actually, I’m surprised by the number of neurotypical people (NTs) apparently experiencing limerence. What’s up with that? 😆
Yes, for sure, I think neurodivergence could be a factor in limerence, as the difference between autistic and neurotypical brains could leave a lot of room for innocent misunderstandings among people. E.g. autistics may misunderstand NT motivations and NTs may misunderstand autistic motivations. Autistic people also tend to “mask” a lot in social situations, to avoid being bullied/standing out.
Some people think limerence is caused by not being fully present in one’s everyday life. I think every autistic could identify with that statement. I mean, from a young age, I was always “off with the fairies”. I was listening/paying attention to the world around me, but I wasn’t paying attention to the SOCIAL world. I was paying attention to the natural world, and filtered out the social world. The bulk of my young peers were paying attention to the SOCIAL world and learning to read social cues with a high degree of accuracy. 😉
It might take longer for autistic people to build a solid sense of self over the course of a lifetime than NT people. This is because autistic people are late bloomers in some regards. On the other hand, NT people may just do what their friends are doing, out of fear of social exclusion, and hence their decisions aren’t really authentic. An NT, whose whole life has been dictated by peer pressure, may find themselves in a limerent episode because they want to discover their true selves. In other words, NTs may suffer from “imposter syndrome” too. 🤔
Some researchers have described limerence as a journey towards greater authenticity – this is the good that can come out of limerence. Basically, at some point, the entire edifice of the limerent’s personality dissolves. (Has this happened to you? This “disintegration of self” happened to me at age 23).
After the disintegration of self, one spends a great deal of time ruminating about one’s life/childhood and then – under the best conditions – one resolves and reintegrates unresolved emotional experiences from the past. When I look at the writing I’ve done, for example, regarding limerence, I’m not writing anything original. I’m mostly reorganising old memories and processing old emotions.
Some people think an LO is merely a stand-in for an idealised parent figure. Usually, this idealised parent figure is androgynous – has many positive masculine qualities and also has many positive feminine qualities. Maybe an LO represents the kind of parent we would like to have had during crucial formative years?
I actually had a really interesting dream about my (almost-former) LO one night ago. In the dream, a group of high school students at my old high school developed a perfume in science class. The name of this perfume was “Love Potion”. The invention of the perfume by the students was meant as a practical joke, but the practical joke went wrong – as you can well imagine. Basically, the perfume was sprayed onto my male LO and whoever came into contact with him became hopelessly infatuated. A lot of hurt feelings and heartache ensued. 🙄
I know the dream my brain came up with is not a scientific explanation of limerence – not by any means. But I think it is a pretty good poetic description of limerence, which is why I share it. Sometimes, our subconscious minds can come up with eloquent images to help us process difficult emotional experiences.
Limerence, essentially, creates very powerful feelings in us. But it is important to remember that these feelings are only feelings at the end of the day, and shouldn’t dictate what choices we make in life or who we spend our lives with – particularly when the feelings aren’t reciprocated. It’s important to remember that someday, neurodivergent or not, the perfume called “Love Potion” will wear off and one may no longer be quite so smitten with one’s LO as one once was! 😉
Limerent Emeritus says
For those really tough decisions, there’s always “The Magic 8-Ball!” 🙂
https://magic-8ball.com/magic-8-ball-answers/
I used to keep one on my desk. When someone would come in and ask me a question, I’d flip it over and respond accordingly.
One time LO #4 told me that she was having a tough time making a decision. I recommended the try the 8-Ball but she had to remember how it worked. There were 10 affirmative responses (50%), 5 neutral response (25%) and 5 negative responses (25%) so it was important how she framed the question.’
She replied that she liked my irreverence and that I always seemed to know how to lighten her mood.
You can waste a ton of time asking the 8-Ball questions about your LO. That and online tarot card readings. LO #2 told me that she had a tarot card reading done on us.
Not that I ever did any of those…
Nisor says
To make a decision you must have choices.
Quote for today.
“Choice,
Is the most powerful tool we have. Everything boils down to choice. We exist in a field of infinite possibilities. Every choice we make shuts an infinite number of doors and opens an infinite number of doors. At any point we can change the direction of our lives by a simple choice. It is all in our hands, our hearts, and our minds.”
Nisor says
The “Choice” quote doesn’t seem to help
much…
Here’s another one for the ambivalents ..
“ You don’t know how strong you are until being strong is the ONLY option you have.”
Better? Oh well…
Have a beautiful blessed weekend.
Snowphoenix says
I think it takes more than sheer strength to tame the elephant in the room — LE, peacefully coexist with it, and then gradually lead it out of the door. Dr L’s “10 steps to mastering limerence” is a set of very helpful but highly challenging tools… I know I’d feel sad sometimes when putting them all in practice…*sigh*
Limerent Emeritus says
You’re where you are in life as a result of the choices you make and the choices others make that affect you.
I think of life as a train track. Sometimes, you throw the switch and go down a different route. Sometimes, other people throw switch and you go down a different route.
Sometimes, you throw a switch and think you know where it will go. Sometimes, it goes where you want, sometimes it doesn’t.
Sometimes, you can try to influence someone to throw a certain switch (e.g., asking LO #2 to marry me), sometimes you can’t (e.g., my father’s suicide).
Some switches have little apparent impact, (e.g., where should I go for lunch?). Some switches have potentially a great impact (e.g., should I take this new job and move across the country?).
I also think of life like baseball. According to MLB, the league batting average is ~.250 (1 in 4). A really good hitter hits .300. Less than 30 hitters/year hit .300 in the entire MLB.
I usually don’t have a problem making decisions unless it’s something that I really don’t want to do. [https://despair.com/cdn/shop/products/procrastinationdemotivator.jpeg?v=1416776298]
What I have a problem with is making good decisions, like going into an EA and knowingly acting against my own best interest for absolutely nothing in return.
Nisor says
We, perhaps all, can make a good decision on choosing a good stock in the market, buying or selling a house , saving money for the company we work for, choose a good package for a vacation, etc, etc, but when it comes to handling an LE we all become stupid. haha. LOs can play a number on you. Can wrap you around in their pinky so easily… anybody knows why?
Snowphoenix says
According to Dr L and my own experiences, after the glimmer before LE, limerent’s mind is “high” in a neurochemically altered mental state — beyond control of our logical thinking. After we slip into LE, LO becomes a personal walking cocaine that can easily “dance” around, in and out of us, making our mood high or low, our behaviors embarrassing or worse…
If LO is unavailable or unfit, then going NC is the only choice to eventually get rid of this chemical addiction of the highest potency!
“There must be something inaccessible in what we love, something to pursue; we love only what we do not possess…” — Marcel Proust
Before accidentally discovering LwL, I’ve berated myself endlessly for my ‘stupidity”; now knowing my LE’s neurological and psychological causes, I’m reluctant to keep using such a derogatory term to describe us limerents.
“It is impossible to love and to be wise.” – Francis Bacon
MJ says
Because they’re not human and they have no issues, and they’re beautiful, and they are our perfect companion, and for sure they love us just the same, and eye contact means something and…
Marcia says
LE,
“That and online tarot card readings. ”
I had an actual, in-person reading. She told me everything I DIDN’T want to hear — that nothing would happen with my LO and that I’d eventually leave the job. I ran out of there, all upset.
But what she said was TRUE! I fought it for a long time, but deep down I knew she was right.
Sometimes the truth can be staring us right in the face, running us over like a car … and still we ignore it! To our detriment.
Longing for someone and not being able to have them, I now know, (seesm painfully obvious, really) is a sign to RUN!
Limerent Emeritus says
Marcia,
LO #2 claimed to have had a Tarot card reading done on us. The gypsy said that she had never seen so much chaos in a reading and didn’t know how we’d even been friends, let alone lovers for as long as we were. I asked LO #2 what the prognosis was.
“Maybe if we spent 20 years alone together on a desert island, we might make it work.”
She also claimed she underwent a Past Life Regression to some time in the late Middle Ages. I was some merchant or tradesman. LO #2 said that I was doing ok for myself and added that I’d always do ok for myself. She lived alone outside the village with her pets. I asked if she was the village crone. She didn’t like that much but said, yeah, kind of.
I told LO #2 that was depressing. She asked why. I told her that if she was right, not only had we failed to learn anything in 800 years but we’d get to do it again.
All of this came out after we broke up. We stopped for a drink after her cousin’s wedding [never go to a wedding with an Ex] and it was like a dike broke. LO #2 went into auto and stuff just came pouring out of her.
Marcia says
LE,
“LO #2 claimed to have had a Tarot card reading done on us. The gypsy said that she had never seen so much chaos in a reading and didn’t know how we’d even been friends, let alone lovers for as long as we were. ”
See … there’s something to these tarot card readings!
I don’t think we really need the readings, though. Was a waste of money for me, anway. I already knew the answer.
Limerent Emeritus says
Marcia,
This one cycled through the play list:
“The Turn of a Friendly Card” – The Alan Parsons Project (1980)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsa6ojQcYXQ
“And they think it will make their lives easier
For God knows up ’til now it’s been hard
But the game never ends when your whole world depends
On the turn of a friendly card
No, the game never ends when your whole world depends
On the turn of a friendly card”
I told the therapist that I wondered if LO #2 lived her life this way. The therapist said “Maybe.” It was a wonderful way to dodge responsibility for not being where you thought you should be in life.
Another classic by Blue Oyster Cult on the subject:
“Shooting Shark” (1983)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BMacPIDQZE
This song has it all. Tarot Cards, Past Life Regression.
Snowphoenix says
Choices of decisively killing a LE is black or white — either go a NC or total consummation with LO, anything in between just worsens LE, it’s quite unfair. Sometimes, LE still exists after going NC with its LO for years.
There should be some fundamental ways to prevent limerent from going into LE, even after the glimmer set in for an unavailable LO. Otherwise, removing one LE would leave space for another one to creep in, or even kick the former out before its ending. The neurological part of LE brain needs to be substantially corrected or healed somehow.
I find It’s ironic that after my effective meditation sessions, the irrational bliss/high I felt (w/o any persona) just melt down my LE and some cPTSD symptoms. Then I do not feel like making any decisions about my LE (&LO), as if it did not exist. Of course, it came back later but weakened each time. Then, I just practiced another session even just for 10 minutes.
I probably can never change my limerent brain, but will be quite content if I can live with LE in peace.
Snowphoenix says
I’ve made a decision today to limerent with LwL site all day long — a symptom of my OCD. At least, it does not flirt and play a pull-n-push game with me like a manipulative Sensor, and it allows me to freely complain about my newly-learned, a lifetime-addiction — LE. 😢
Problem Child says
I genuinely think I fear missing out. What if it was the best sex ever? I don’t fear making a decision, not in this scenario, I just want to have my cake and eat it.
I think I just don’t want to make a decision because I know what the correct moral decision is, to LC. I want to push this LE to its limits to stoke my ego, that’s it really. I’m not sure I even want anything physical to happen, I just want to know that it could. It’s really unfair on everyone involved but that’s the truth.
I feel the hot and coldness again, actually lukewarm and lukewarm, I think I’m kidding myself that he’s interested, or at least that there’s more than a casual friendship. I build everything up, tell myself that his actions mean something, when they could mean nothing at all, but I pursue it anyway.
I genuinely think if I knew one way or another, then I might be able to get over it, or worse case scenario, I’d find myself in a situation where I didn’t feel I could back out. Or total embarrassing rejection! I’m stuck. I suppose this is indecision!
Why can’t I see what an awful place I would put everyone in? If it hadn’t happened before I could understand it as a mistake but I keep doing this!
MJ says
I have often believed that if LO would walk right up to me and use a lot of choice words to put me down and tell me to go the f#$@ away, then that might just be the kick I need to stop pursuing.
As corny as it sounds, even dating experts believe chasing them isn’t the answer. That it’s actually making them go the other way. Our silly limerent brains don’t care what’s right. LO is tooooo perfect for me to stop anything.
Problem Child says
Ugh, imagine the cringeworthy embarrassment but yes, I think that’s what it would take. Which brings me to disclosure, that’s possibly the only way out (NC is impossible), at least I’d have to deal with the rejection or bask in the knowledge that he feels the same! This limbo is torturous.
Marcia says
Problem Child,
“Which brings me to disclosure, that’s possibly the only way out (NC is impossible), at least I’d have to deal with the rejection or bask in the knowledge that he feels the same! This limbo is torturous.”
That’s if you get a clear answer. I hope you get one, but a good number of LOs are notoriously ambiguous. I think that’s the point of this blog post. Can’t wait for other people to make decisions for us.
Snowphoenix says
I’m second to Marcia: imagine and prepare for the worst possibility — your LO is just ambiguous (or even wants to bask in your LE with him), then how are you going to get out of your limbo?
Egotistical as we are, do we want anyone else to make a decision for our mental health, or allow them to keep an invisible leash on our heart?
Snowphoenix says
@pc
If you are really afraid, could you just imagine and believe that your LO feels the same as you do, without the disclosure or giving him a chance to confirm either way? Of course, this requires you to expect nothing more than what you already have with him, and best appreciate it as it is.
You see, my magical thinking (trained in my lonely childhood) had automatically chosen for all LO’s possible responses and reactions, before had a chance to behave either way. Then my fantasy chose to believe positive scenarios and got instant gratification for the time being.
When LO did respond or (in)act later, they were often disappointing or duller than what I had imagined; LO is flawed, not ideal. However, the phantom of LO created by my imagination, with LO’s face and physique, is PERFECT. LO once said something like, “it is not even ME you are taking about…” but he didn’t really get upset as long as I kept chitchatting with him and fueling his Sensor needs.
When LO behaved coldly or “hurtfully” — unknowingly triggered my abandonment melange several times in reality, the Phantom of LO did NOT and would NOT do them in my mind — this is how emotionally neglected or abused children (cPTSD) survived their excruciating reality — unconsciously denying their unspeakable loneliness, helplessness, and despair. Fantasizing is the surviving tool!
In my case, my fantasy created a phantom between me and LO, and I was actually in LE with the Phantom — a probable reason why LO’s face always slipped out of my memory. This fact also made LO appearing like a Martian (6’4”, slim) from time to time, making it easier to keep a physical distance in reality while fantasizing an intimacy with the Phantom in mind. Dr L: my LE fits its definition 120%!
Now, I wonder how long the Phantom will linger in my mind after LO is gone…. Should I kick the former out as well or keep IT as my muse?
Mila says
I really respect your honesty with yourself , Problem Child.
I sometimes feel that I‘m acting and thinking so egotistical and still won’t stop, wanting the cake and eat it, all the time knowing that the right thing to do would be to abstain, go LC and all.
Just recently a colleague/friend (not the one I’m limerent for) praised me for my moral values and integrity and I thought “yeah well, if you knew” and felt bad.
Snowphoenix says
@Mila
A battle fought without strenuous struggling and unspeakable suffering cannot be considered a victory, you deserve a metal for your win!
For me, Ego comprises logic, strength, efforts made for pragmatic gains; however, emotional thinking, especially LE, desires and fancies to be loved/desired intensively and extraordinarily. Ego would bow down its head in front of true love — to give and take equally.
Regardless how perfect a LO is, at best they intermittently give the limerent a bit breadcrumbs of delusional “love” and high, just like what cocaine does to one’s brain and body.
Would a strong Ego willingly allow LE to go on forever?
Problem Child says
“If you are really afraid, could you just imagine and believe that your LO feels the same as you do, without the disclosure or giving him a chance to confirm either way? Of course, this requires you to expect nothing more than what you already have with him, and best appreciate it as it is.”
I love this SnowPhoenix, I am very good with fantasy (who knew?!) so I can see this working for me somewhat. It would hopefully leave me with a dreamy quality which would be converse to my usual state of underlying stress and social awkwardness!
I would definitely keep the phantom of your LO, it seems to be working for you. Your insights are very thoughtful.
Nisor says
“Would a strong Ego willingly allow LE to go on forever?
Wow Snowphoenix, you’re opening a Pandora box here! haha.
No amount of philosophy, religion, mysticism, wisdom, will be able to help anyone with that, MHO. The souls are so entangled, I don’t know by who’s design, that untangling them will be like killing one of the two involved. Help!
Snowphoenix says
@Nisor,
I’m so ignorant, what does MHO means? Whose souls are tangled? I happen to believe in one’s soul (the Unconscious), that only resides inside each individual, which is impossible even for oneself to 👁️ its contents or dimensions… Carl Jung describes it better.
When practicing Stoicism it its extreme, one firmly accepts that everything external is beyond one’s control, and even imagines the worst has already happened. Then one is forced to find ways to cope with it — LO’s body, mind and soul (that of anyone else) can never be “owned” by us for eternity, what are we to do about it? Passively suffer to our deathbed? I’ve entangled with 7 major LOs across two continents before my lymphoma operated in 2020 (it’s gone for now), for which one, I could/should have died in agony?
In LE dynamic, if one can let go ALL expectations, but “love” LO unrequitedly quietly with whatever fantasies, then LE (mainly craving, not love) would ease! Try to picture your unavailable LO as a very attractive but flawed portrait walking around and appreciate its animated beauty, and even interact, in some physical and mental distance , while keeping your reality and daydreams clearly separated!
If w/o my cPTSD with its worst symptom, abandonment melange, I’d be quite content in my LE, despite how my limerent brain always neurologically hijacked my nerves and composure in LO’s presence; the intensity has decreased a great deal (70-80%) over 6 years.
Now, with so much knowledge about LE, I think we can all handle it better w/ our individual workable methods. I encourage you, Nisor, to try whatever soulful means you deem effective. My hypnotic meditation (spiritual) is getting more effective each day. My smart watch has detected, for the first time, a “deep sleep” during my meditative “trance” just a few minutes ago before writing this message.
Nisor: Good luck with your active efforts! 💪
Nisor says
Hi Snowphoenix
MHO is short for ‘my
humble opinion ‘. I don’t like using this kind of acronyms, but only to shorten the text. I’m very sorry for that.
The souls entanglement I refer to are my LO’s and mine. We did love each other. We had an exclusive romantic relationship for three years . It marked my life forever. But I did break it off for fear of abandonment, so I thought,assumed.
I only became Limerent for LO 49 years later! In between I married, same SO for 46 years, have children, grandchildren. But limerence, for the first time in my life found me last year in a dream! I thought I was going out of my mind! Never thought or dreamed of LO for all those years.(The story in LwL/dreams) I searched the Internet for answers and that’s how I found LwL, which matched exactly with what was happening to me.
I’m a strong person, and understand what’s reality and what’s fantasy. We’re both old people and with SOs, live in different continents, and cannot communicate.(Though I talked to him twice last year) It’s a dead end. No use even wasting time on it. But who can tame the heart of a Limerent? LO is my beloved, and will always be. Just that sometimes I feel sad , and the memories are very real . This limerence thing has rocked my
entire life and shaken everything I thought to be true to me. I’ll be okay!!! I promise…
Sorry to hear of your sickness and afflictions. Sending my deep and tender feelings for you.
Please excuse the errors but English is not my language of origin. I have difficulties trying to express myself in English.
Have a good evening.
Mila says
„Ego would bow down its head in front of true love — to give and take equally“
Well. I truly love my SO, all difficulties aside,
but I also feel something very strong resembling love for my LO and am quite sure he feels something strong for me. It’s give and take, basically.
So should Ego bow down ?
No. I built a life and family with SO, I should cherish that and not crave another true love- bond that would be against all my SO and me built. I feel greedy and still crave.
I think your perception of „ego“ is a much more positive one than mine.
Snowphoenix says
@Nisor
Your faithful, loving story with your good LO touches me, you’re LUCK!
Dreams are a part of our mind! They are vivid expressions of our unconscious that sometimes reveal to and remind us our forgotten memories, repressed thoughts & emotions, secrete desires, unspeakable fears, and dire warnings for possible dangers… They help release our anxieties and inner pressures, and also valuable to help discover our whole Self (based on Jungian theory) — comprising the conscious Ego mind and the vast unconscious realm…. I always listen to, record and be amused by my vivid, detailed narrative dreams.
However, I would not let dream stories control (they can influence) my conscious thinking and behaviors, while observing our 7 birth-right emotions/feelings rise and fall, come and go, without berating any of them — my hard struggle before finding this LwL site. Without experiencing sadness, what would be joy to feel?
“[T]he greatest and most important problems of life are all in a certain sense insoluble… They can never be solved, but only outgrown.’ — Carl Jung, Commentary on The Secret of the Golden Flower
Even happily married, one can still love and even lust on others internally, as long as not act fantasies out. As all legal practice, there is NO thought crime! A marriage should never be a prison of human mind, but a strong relational bond that can support and nourish each partner’s self-growth and well-being.
LIfe is short and unpredictable . If I were you, I’d maximumly cherish and even celebrate your long-lasting love for LO, it sound so precious! I hope your SO is open minded enough to allow you to keep communication with your LO more than twice a year…. My ex-father-in-law and ex-step-father-in-law participated together in so many “broken”, extended family events — holidays, engagements, weddings, and stood around my ex-mother-in-law in many family portraits — It is amazing!
English is not my native language, grammar and usage errors are all over the places in my ramblings. So no worries on this regard with me.
Snowphoenix says
@Mila
Ego (capital) is: the conscious mind that everyone has to make sounding decisions and achieve big or small goals. The stronger, the better.
The small “ego” consists one’s pride, vanity, self-centeredness, etc. Small ego needs to bow down when one truly loves and desires to be loved in return.
The volcanic pull to LO is Lust for oneself, it’s biological, genomic instinct for a pair-bond, therefore much, much stronger than love-bond — giving and receiving mainly through behaviors, not merely flashy words or eye-locking.
If Ego bows down to lust, one may suffer, lose and regret a great deal. Our capital Ego needs to take a good care of that small ego.
“In love the other is important; in lust you are important.” — Osho
Mila says
@Snowphoenix,
interesting definition. I had limerences in the past where I would definitely say it was my small ego demanding attention. This one and even the one before are a mixture. Beneath all the „lust“ and ego- satisfying stuff there are real unselfish feelings for my current LO and the LO before him. Which makes everything more agonizing, I have to say.
My former LO has finally found love, they seem to be happy, and I‘m so happy to realize that I‘m truly and sincerely glad for him and that I enjoy seeing pictures of them together etc. I finally overcame the „but he‘s mine, really“ feeling and just want the best for him. But no idea if that would work if he would be still in the same town though.
In my current LE I really struggle on a sms to sms- basis to suppress the small ego and just let the real friendship speak.
@Problem Child,
also very interesting. I think I also have these patterns. I just think there can be a mixture of this „hole-in-my-soul-filling“ and true feelings for people (and they are intrinsic to human nature, no?). The difficulty is to detect what is what.
And I also feel sometimes that in suppressing the limerence stuff I would suppress some positive things in myself, too, empathy and compassion as you say, and a universal love for life and human beings that I sometimes feel as an undercurrent.
I realize that you , Snowphoenix, also Problem Child and basically everyone here already worked so much on themselves and know so much.
Maybe I should delve more into the psychological reasons and my motives.
I‘m just scared that then this LE stuff will occupy my mind even more…
Adam says
“My former LO has finally found love, they seem to be happy, and I‘m so happy to realize that I‘m truly and sincerely glad for him and that I enjoy seeing pictures of them together etc.”
Mila
This is my case too. Before LO left the job she had started seeing a man after having divorced her cheating pos ex sometime early before I met her. At first I might have been a bit jealous and mistrusting of him after what she had been through previously. But more and more I could see that she was happy with him, and he even took an interest in her daughters and treated them like his own.
I couldn’t very well stand in the way of that. And I guess that is what makes the NC feasible for me. I think if not for him I would struggle a lot more with temptation than I do now. So maybe it’s a blessing for us both.
I often wonder if they ever get married if I would be invited. It would be something to see that. And to know she actually remembers me.
Mila says
@Adam, exactly, it‘s kind of a blessing for both.
At the moment I think I would be invited to a wedding:) but they just met a few months ago , and who knows if we manage to hold contact until they really marry.
There was a girlfriend before her who, as he told me only after it was over, was jealous of me,and I hope to God that the new woman won’t be, as she absolutely has no reason anymore. Also, she seems much more self-assured and mature than the last one, so I don’t see that happening, and hope really much to see them marrying, it would make my heart happy.
Snowphoenix says
@Mila, @Adam
My case seems to be different from majority of LE — ignorantly searching for a surrogate father (SF) while the subconscious tool was the pair-bond genomic instinct springing out in 5 seconds after spotting, by chance, a potential limerent FIRST (otherwise, they never became my LO even w/ my helping efforts, why?? ) without knowing at all who they were as a person, or if available at all! No wondered I failed in all my LEs.
Genuinely feeling and wishing happiness a former LO sounds to me either coming from a head not heart, with the universal love, or LE with that LO is truly over. I think a way to check whether LE is lust or love based, or totally over, is to honestly examine within if you could watch, with your bare eyes, LO (in person or in a video) pouring some genuine affections or showing physical intimacy with their SO/LO. If your heart remains calm, cheek not red, stomach not churning… your LE is love based; otherwise, lust, or completely dead.
As a single child, virtually an emotional “orphan” carrying several traumas’ affects inside, my LE for a SF-LO was even more possessive, the anger and sadness more severe if LO did not or could not reciprocate with my desired SF’s affection. I noticed I was frequently in my inner child’s voice when online talking to/monologuing with the current LO, it really helped liberate a lot of stuff repressed within me since my childhood.
When hearing his frequent talking about his “ideal” wife (only saw her and the daughters’ photos), I never felt 1 ounce of jealousy, I’d never attempt to cross the line secretly pushing into a “happy” family. But the accidental catching his glimmer/flirting at his new secret LO last year in the hallway sent me into lasting pain and rage, as if he exclusively belonged to me. What a ridiculous fantasy in my LE!
@pc & Mila
With cPTSD, my small ego was never a direct cause of my LE, but only the glimmer that unexpectedly jumped out of my instincts realm once in a long while, but “erroneously chased” a SF-LO. I almost never felt being left out by anything, rarely compared myself to others after high school, cared little whether others, EXCEPT LO, liked me or not. I have been jealous only at others’ caring parents and close siblings. Before my teens, I wished some of my girlfriends’ loving mothers could be mine, too.
The subconscious hole of missing an authentically attentive, truly loving parent was so huge that all my life I cared little about anything beyond survival necessities. Only recently, I realized that all shinny material stuff, mainstream (in)tangible pursuits — wealth, popularity, prestige and even dazzlingly LOs, did not and could not fulfill or even sufficiently cover the emptiness brought by that deep hole.
Glimmering eyes at or infatuations with me rarely boosted my vanity, but many “frightened” me. I warmly treated a handful of them with a universal love and made sincere efforts to befriend them — a true platonic friendship is quite satisfying to me, if the glimmer could not be cultivated. Tried a couple of one-night stand, it’s just awful making me hauntingly lonely and emptier. I prefer going to bed with my books and fantasies, nowadays sleeping meditation.
So the current LE has shockingly triggered the cPTSD wounds, revealed that unrealized hole, and harmed my health; but it firmly pushed me onto a serious self-discovery and self-healing journey. Through LwL and other insightful websites, I’m absolutely convinced now that NO ONE ELSE but only my Self could tread on and succeed in such a journey.
Every coin has two sides. An adversity could be always our best teacher if we face, battle with, and learn from it….
Adam says
“If your heart remains calm, cheek not red, stomach not churning… your LE is love based; otherwise, lust, or completely dead.”
If I felt any jealousy it was the attention she gave him and not me. It was never “he probably gets to kiss her”, “he gets to hold her”, “she’s touching him that way” …. I never really felt anything like that about her. I one time had a carnal thought induced by something she was wearing, and turned out of the office and got my eyes and head away from her. I felt very ashamed of myself.
I will admit to not right away trusting him. And harboring mistrust for him just made the jealousy of the time they spent together and the dwindling time she spent with me worse. But I finally, after watching him with her and listening to how she spoke of him I realized that he was not after anything less than her heart. In accepting that I could accept them. And that made it a bit easier to see her drive away. And makes it easier to maintain NC. In fact I teased her before she left that I hoped she’d send me an invitation when they get married. And she just gave me that “Adam, really?!” look 🙂 But she did it while smiling.
I remember my wife asking me sometime back “do you love her?” And I said “yes of course I do”. Then she asked me “are you in love with her?” At that time I couldn’t answer her. The limerence was still so strong. Now I can answer that. And the answer is no.
Snowphoenix says
@adam
You’re talking about two types of jealousy: one in head intellectually, one in heart/soul psycho-physiologically.
In LE we are all jealous of LO’s affection for another, but it’s jealousy in concept in head. However, once such attention/affection/love are manifested in specific behaviors (not merely in words) in front of our sensuous eyes, then watch (or vividly imagine in 👁️) our natural bodily reactions. Then we know whether LE is gone or still linger.
Your definition and avoidance of “carnal thoughts” are from ideology/religion, not human biology. Your answer to your wife’s “In Love/LE?…” question confirms a bit more of my own assumption from the previous post.
I solute your willpower! Mine could be crashed in my OCD in any given moments, with so many liberal, conflicting thoughts and emotions battling with each other in my psyche…. 🙃
Snowphoenix says
A bit of clarification here:
Different from the dominant definition, (to me and some others), “Lust” is NOT limited only to sexuality, but one’s entire physiological force born to us — the life force of body, vital energy/Qi, five senses, genomic instincts, creative force, etc. It has little to do with rationality/reasoning that reside only in head.
In the glimmer and during LE, sight, sound, smell, touch… of LO neurologically, lustfully arouse limerent’s five senses, instinct, speeding up the heart rate and energy flow by dopamine and other chemicals that is impossible to control.
On other hand, the sincere Love (not IN love/LE), compassion, empathy, etc. are in mind, neutered primarily by culture.
When a LE for is over, one’s entire body feels CALM at that LO’s physical presence and can mentally Love (not Lust for) LO for eternity.
Adam says
““Lust” is NOT limited only to sexuality, but one’s entire physiological force born to us”
When I think of lust I think of a strong craving for the carnality of sexual things, not any other aspect of a person’s physiological makeup. So the thought of lust for LO was shameful. Something I conditioned myself to bury away and not entertain.
“In the glimmer and during LE, sight, sound, smell, touch… of LO neurologically, lustfully arouse limerent’s five senses”
But in this sense I was quite guilty. Only one other woman in my life (back in my early 20’s) has been able to make me a nervous wreck when in their presence. And I don’t think that was limerence. I think that was being a 20 year old virgin standing in front of a beautiful woman.
Another association with carnal and lust, is I was not lustful of my wife in the way that you describe it, like a glimmer, when we first met in person. We initially met online. I knew that I loved her and she loved me and that we could build a relationship on that love. But I was quite lustful of her sexually because she is the only woman I have had a sexual relationship with. So again I associate lust with sex. And I still am. Lustful 😉
“When a LE for is over, one’s entire body feels CALM at that LO’s physical presence and can mentally Love (not Lust for) LO for eternity.”
That would be the true test of my limerence. If I was ever in her presence again, how would my mind and body would react. But I don’t think I will ever get that tested on me, unless we meet again by happenstance. I haven’t seen her in over a year. I talked to her once about a month after she left the job and I was elated for weeks after our phone conversation. So I am not sure if I could pass that test or not. Even after a year. She did me like the Shawn Mendes song Nervous
“you got me acting like I’ve never done this before
I promise I’ll be ready when you walk through that door
and I don’t know why
no I don’t know why
I get a little bit nervous around you”
Snowphoenix says
@Adam,
Aware the mainstream definition of “lust”, I posted my clarification. Some also define “libido ↔️ creativity” — human instinctual drives and creativities ➡️ music, arts, books, architectures, and all kinds of small or big creative ways to live each individual’s own life, eg. build a small garden or a bookshelf.
Your sense of “lust” is totally “normal”, felt and treated narrowly by millions in different, tradition-leaning cultures (me included until my 20s, in a Puritan-like environment ). I only wish you can feel less “guilty” about our birth-right for all our biological drives/desires. The sense of guilt could add so much negative strains, affects, and even malfunctions in our psychophysiological system. As a victim, I knew its harmful effects first-hand. It took years of unlearning in body and mind, to trash out the old brainwashes.
I shamelessly admit that I Lust for NC’s LO’s body and mind in all sorts of romantic or carnal ways…. While provoked in a 6-year old rage (w/ my cPTSD), I repeatedly fist-punched LO’s gorgeous face in my fantasies!… 😇
No thought crime in any society.
Sammy says
“Would a strong Ego willingly allow LE to go on forever?”
@Snowphoenix.
That is such an interesting question, and I would like to know the answer myself…
Is limerence really about ego? Are our egos somehow involved in the whole “drama”? Does something have to happen to the ego in order for one to extricate oneself from LE, if that is ultimately something one wants?
My very tentative thoughts on the question, based only on my own personality, is that maybe the limerent i.e. yours truly, is holding onto some ideal image of self by indulging in the LE. And in order to exit LE, I must learn to relinquish that ideal image of self?
However, I think it’s hard to relinquish said ideal image if one has nothing on standby to replace it?
What part of us is the ego exactly? Is it the ideal image we hold of ourselves? Or am I getting the concept of ego all wrong? 🤔
C for cat says
Sammy, I hope this appears in the right place – I had to go up miles to find a reply button!
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head there as far as I’m concerned. My sense of self has always been, I’m realising, so absolutely tied up with how others view me, that if I try to let go of that I have no idea who I am. And that’s scary. Who am I if no-one desires me?
Allie 1 says
“My very tentative thoughts on the question, based only on my own personality, is that maybe the limerent i.e. yours truly, is holding onto some ideal image of self by indulging in the LE. And in order to exit LE, I must learn to relinquish that ideal image of self?”
I really relate to this, thanks Sammy. I think most LEs start becuase we believe at some level that LO truly sees us (the self-idealised version), likes us, desires us, etc. That felt so mind alteringly good and made me feel so much more confidant for a while. I never wanted that feeling to end.
Letting go of that fantasy has made me feel less desirable, less likeable, less interesting, etc. I started to see myself, other people and life in general in such a negative light. (no doubt also fuelled by current hormonal situation 🙂 )
So I am fighting my way out of depression currently and it is a slog. Reverting my focus back to how others are and trying to perceive them fully, rather than how they perceive is helping me to “relinquish that ideal image of self”. The “self” is so fluid and riddled with contradictions anyway.
Allie 1 says
rather than how they perceive *me* is
Snowphoenix says
Please forgive my frankness here, I’m speaking to myself far more than you lovable ghosts here…
To be desired, well liked, or highly respected is universal (used to be a survivor necessity). But if we so “desperately” desire to “be desired” in order to feel validated, who is out there to desire “to desire” and “to validate”? Is our LO the person who desires or is able to desire more than “to be desired?” Without knowing them as round person (packed with dualities, vulnerabilities and a large gray area in between), how do we know they can grand our wish “to be desired” authentically, and if we can grant their wish “to be desired” authentically? If the other side asks the same set of questions we ask, how would we respond?
Not meant to brag here, as a LO more times than an lamenting limerent: when seeing so much eagerness and efforts to get my affections with limited concerns or cares about how they could fulfill my deep wishes (some did not even bother to ask or simply unable to give), I got very bored (aside from gratitude), despite I so dreamed to have a large circle of FULFILLING friends ever since 4 when I began to have memory.
If seeing a strong sense of Self (w/ self-conscious vulnerabilities) in themselves, independent from the external world — materials + other people’s individual lens, then admiring and respecting them became natural and easy, even if the glimmer from my side was absent. That’s how I’ve remained a long-term loyal friend to some of them, if they wished to be. Do we wish to be a respected and admired friend to our LO, if pair-boning is somehow impossible?
In my HMO, to have a grounded sense of “Self” (always evolving) is the first, most important personality trait before we go out there to have our deepest desire — “to love and to be desired”, fulfilled.
I’m still trying to strength my insufficient self-confidence; thank you for your help by listening to my ramblings here. Even if you’re not listening, I still imagine you do — That’s good enough!
C for cat says
Allie 1 – YES! Me too – since going NC with my last LO (I’ve decided not to call him a ‘current’ LO any more in an attempt to move on) and realising a lot of stuff about limerence and having my already fragile sense of self fall apart, I’m feeling very negative about my personality too. I just wish wish wish I was different. And hormones – urgh, tell me about it! I don’t think peri-menopause is helping me at all!
Snowphoenix says
@Sammy
Let me attempt to answer your and my own questions. I can’t remember the overwhelming information and their sources; if I’m wrong, Dr L will correct me.
Self (capital): the concept in Jungian’s theories.
Ego (capital E): resides in the front lope of the brain (powered by blood and Qi flow), serving as a logical and sounding director, directing other parts of “Self” to run daily mundane and achieve future goals. It involves Libido — creative and executive force, along with other instinctual drives.
ego (small e with narcissistic traits): self-centeredness, vanity, pride, competitiveness, jealousy, revenge, etc. Everyone has some, but dosage varies. I believe ego traits derive from some childhood “traumas” or insecurities from loss, abuse, emotional neglect, abandonment, loneliness, overly-spoiled, etc.
“Is limerence really about ego? Are our egos somehow involved in the whole “drama”? Does something have to happen to the ego in order for one to extricate oneself from LE, if that is ultimately something one wants?”
From the point of neuroscience, limerence involves our brain seeking for that addictive rewards — pair-bonding, mostly sexual, which comes with the glimmer. However, from the point of psychology, In LE, our limerent mind craves for a reciprocity for something far more trandecendent or something we can’t point a figure at — when they are unfit (personality) or unavailable (don’t limerent for us). Here I think ego is involved, in all possible manners as its definitions indicate.
ego is only a small part of “Self”, definitely NOT “some ideal images”, and NOT our Ego. We could use power of Ego and some ego traits to help us exit LE (like my “monologue” with the 35% narc traits in my other earlier post to you. )
Our Ego knows LE — NOT limerent’s volcanic passion, needs to go; our small ego traits could be tool in assisting such a painful process — search and see “subjectively negative” traits in LO. If we stick around long enough with our calmer, logical eyes — NOT that tsunami gaze, we would spot their weakness or vulnerabilities. NO LO is a unicorn!
Of course, we could still choose to “like/love/appreciate” them for who they are, but I think the intensity of LE would be reduced or gone; an uncontaminated friendship could possibly grow.
“My very tentative thoughts on the question, based only on my own personality, is that maybe the limerent i.e. yours truly, is holding onto some ideal image of self by indulging in the LE. And in order to exit LE, I must learn to relinquish that ideal image of self?”
That’s what I felt with the glimmer, but eventually I realized it’s our instinctually desired Beloved, that was projected onto LO by the delusional LE eyes. Therefore, during our exit of LE, we do not need to relinquish what we hold dear in our Self.
Snowphoenix says
I meant: “far more transcendental”
Sammy says
@Allie 1.
“… I think most LEs start becuase we believe at some level that LO truly sees us (the self-idealised version), likes us, desires us, etc. That felt so mind alteringly good and made me feel so much more confidant for a while. I never wanted that feeling to end.
Letting go of that fantasy has made me feel less desirable, less likeable, less interesting, etc. I started to see myself, other people and life in general in such a negative light. (no doubt also fuelled by current hormonal situation 🙂 )
So I am fighting my way out of depression currently and it is a slog. Reverting my focus back to how others are and trying to perceive them fully, rather than how they perceive is helping me to “relinquish that ideal image of self”. The “self” is so fluid and riddled with contradictions anyway.”
Thank you so much for chiming in, Allie. Sorry to hear you are going through a bit of a rough patch. I don’t necessarily think I was right in what I said. I was merely trying to grope towards some deeper truth that might be in there somewhere…
I think sometimes, in limerence, we can sometimes feel overjoyed because our LO sees our idealised self-image, and we want to keep being the person they see us as. However, this would frame limerence itself as a fairly narcissistic activity, an exercise in self-aggrandisement…
I think there is another, less narcissistic explanation for enjoying the admiration of an LO. What if one’s LO simply saw a more AUTHENTIC version of us, and we want to keep being that more authentic version of ourselves? So, at the end of the day, we’re not striving for perfection or superiority but striving for greater authenticity?
I love that you say the “self” is fluid and riddled with contradictions anyway – I can definitely relate to that.
I think limerence, funnily enough, didn’t reinforce my ideal version of myself. Limerence did the opposite – limerence shattered my ideal version of myself, and I realised that my “ideal self” wasn’t me at all.
Let me try to explain what I mean. During some point in all my limerent madness, a platonic male friend (definitely not LO!) told me that he thought I was “acting gay”. I think “acting gay” was his euphemism for “acting lovesick around other males”. And this particular platonic male friend wasn’t really a big fan of that. He was a bit put off by my lovesickness directed toward the same sex, and wanted to know what happened to the old Sammy, since he had known me a long time. In other words, he thought his old mate was “acting out of character” and he was a tiny bit disturbed.
The “acting gay” comment from my friend offended me hugely. The reason I was offended was that up until that point, “acting gay” had never been part of my self-concept or self-image. I simply didn’t see same-sex attraction as having any place in my personality structure at all. I was only aware of cutesy-poo feelings for the odd female.
However, I’m a very honest person. Although I resented my mate’s insinuation greatly, eventually I had to admit to myself that, yes, maybe, I occasionally have fleeting feelings of attraction toward the same sex, and somehow I needed to work that knowledge comfortably into my self-concept. (The alternative would be a nervous breakdown, or worse, which is basically what happened).
So, in a nutshell, limerence destroyed my rigid concept of self i.e. someone who could never be accused of “acting gay”. I was forced to get in touch with my own emotions and my own aesthetic perceptions and admit that, yeah, sure, sometimes I find certain men nice-looking, and that’s okay. I can have fleeting feelings of attraction toward the same sex without believing that I’m a terrible person. I can recognise the beauty of both sexes, if you like!!
When I denied/repressed my feelings of attraction toward other males, beautiful males wielded incredible emotional power over me. I felt incredibly happy when they were nice to me. When I slowly began to integrate my feelings of attraction toward other males into my self-concept, beautiful males lost some but not all of their emotional power over me. Beautiful males were still a potent reward, but not the kind of reward that could derail a whole life.
Same-sex attraction has made me think long and hard about what makes people attractive in the first place. I have reached the conclusion that male bodies aren’t intrinsically amazing and female bodies aren’t intrinsically amazing. Male sexuality is also nothing to write home about. I know how all the plumbing works, etc, etc. “Whoop-de-doo. Nothing to see here. Move along, people.” 🤣
So if sexual power doesn’t reside in the body and if sexual power doesn’t reside in sexuality, where does sexual power reside? I think true sexual power/sexual allure resides in PERSONALITY. In other words, it must be the personalities of certain people that create desire and not physical attributes or functions. Bodies alone, or sexuality by itself, doesn’t seem to inspire great heights of passion.
Problem Child says
I know what you mean. I have lovely times with my SO which make me feel like such a wicked b*tch! I’m not a femme fatale in any respect, way too much guilt! But here I am…
Mila says
Problem Child,
I feel you… I always had that image of myself as honest and integer, but I have to admit to myself that I‘m thinking and almost acting like a wicked b*tch. Maybe I am one.
Then what I wrote somewhere else kicks in- if so many people feel that way, are we all wicked b*tches or is this limerence stuff something that belongs to human nature?
Problem Child says
Hey Mila,
I don’t believe Limerence is an intrinsic part of human nature, I think it’s a learned behaviour stemming from childhood. That’s in my case anyway. I also think that our fast-paced lives, social media, the idea that you can have it all and a want for instant gratification contribute to it. I almost feel that I need to undo parts of my personality, work backwards to where it all went wrong, in order to recover. There are things I never learnt about self care and self love, instead I learnt from a young age how to use people/substances to satisfy the hole in my soul rather than work on myself in a healthy and productive manner. The trouble is, people don’t always behave the way you expect or want them to – we can’t control other people, places or things! But by the time I discovered that it was too late and the pattern was deeply ingrained in my psyche.
Also, if we could erase the parts of ourselves that fall so easily into this trap, would we change other more redeeming qualities too? I am a huge empath and highly creative (INFJ – turbulent), I’m not sure, at least for being empathetic, if this is nature or nurture, but if it’s the latter, if I work to change how I react to ‘the glimmer’, would my propensity for compassion change too?
I hope I don’t have to see him for a few days, and that I can stop thinking about him. I will come here and ramble if I get the urge to daydream or contact him. Apologies in advance!
Snowpheonix says
@Mila,
If in a LE for LO and having a loving SO, I could watch my ex LOs making love in front of my bare eyes, like watching unknown couples in R/X-rated movies or even in reality (did once). Without the glimmer, no one could make me jealous of anyone or anything. (Several pining friend-suitors used to show off their dates to me in group settings, but never able to stir up a ripple inside me.)
You’re insightful! My jealousy for LO was more intense, like a child’s for an exclusive parental love. Can you imagine that your busy parent was actively neglecting you while secretly adopting another daughter? The Sensor LO barely looks like a father in public — impeccably groomed for his youthful appearance and physique). How on earth I glimmered at him for a potential SF?! How one’s genetic instinct and cPTSD “nurtured” desire could so criss-crossed?! 😩
LE has invaded limerents all over the world throughout history (just check out those classical tragedies) regardless of having traumas or not, so please do not harshly berate yourself. I would also try to avoid judgmental words such “good/bad”, “love” (means 5-10 kinds in Greek), and other vague terms; they’re varied, subjective and evolving in different cultures.
Accepting our dilemma with an inner peace has done a half of the work needed; the next half is to strengthen our capital Ego for beneficial behaviors.
Don’t believe I’m doing all what I have been rambling here! I spend much time writing and editing here (not orally talking to anyone around me), in an attempt to repeatedly feed my Unconscious (responsive and compensating) which I hope could somehow reinforce my decisions and behaviors in reality — to Fully parent myself ASAP, and could grand my wishes in dreams and hypnotic meditations.
Mila says
@Snowphoenix,
„ I think a way to check whether LE is lust or love based, or totally over, is to honestly examine within if you could watch, with your bare eyes, LO (in person or in a video) pouring some genuine affections or showing physical intimacy with their SO/LO. If your heart remains calm, cheek not red, stomach not churning… your LE is love based; otherwise, lust, or completely dead.“
That’s exactly what happened. I saw an instagram story of his girlfriend, a video where they sat next to each other, touching, him kissing side of her head and having this special tender vulnerable look in his eye. I saw it completely unprepared (you know how Insta stories just automatically play)and I spontaneously felt happy. That’s why I think I‘m in a good place regarding this LE and that there’s some unselfish love involved.
But! Maybe that’s only because we don’t see each other much any more (colleague that left a year ago), and because I have my current LE. It‘s called transference here, I believe.
Also, SP, I had your reaction of jealousy too, regarding wife vs new secret LO. It‘s quite understandable. The wife is a fixture and given, and he gave you the feeling to „win“ over the wife because she didn’t know about secret smiles (or whatever occurred to fuel this LE). But if there’s a new secret LO, she steals your place and shows you that you are not the unique person, the only one with whom he would risk his marriage etcet, but that you are replaceable and he is only attention seeking, or that you were not good enough and now he found someone better.
The poor wife/SO doesn’t count.
Or at least that was how it was with me when I had a similar situation.
Anyway, I feel quite bad because I don’t have any conscious traumas, disorders I‘m struggling against like many of you, and still can’t get to grips with my LE stuff. Being weak, selfish and basically not a very good person, that’s what I feel on bad days.
Well, maybe I should just accept that and work on myself. Sometimes it seems easier to accept it and do no work at all🙄
Lola says
You are basically describing exactly my situation too. I want to have my cake and eat it too. What if the sex as great? I have never had this super great sex with anyone. If we are being honest, I’ve never orgasmed during sex. Don’t tell my SO because it will break his heart.
And I don’t know if I can go on with my life without feeling the passion again, and experience sex with a new person.
I know passion and sex are superficial, but I also know that they are what drives human beings to do the things we do. We want to feel those things. Without them life is boring.
So if I could have it all, I would keep my family, and I would also go have passionate sex with the LO (who I am not as obsessed with nowadays as I was a couple of weeks ago). It may be great or may suck, who knows. And my SO will never find out, as well as LO’s SO.
I watched a comedy special by Ali Wang on Netflix, and she said everything that I am thinking out loud. And then she got divorced a year after.
And I too, wish that I knew what LO wanted and felt because it would give me closure. But I will never ask him because that is asking to be hurt.
On the decisions topic… most of us become limerant because there is something missing in our life that we feel can be filed by LO. In my case passion and excitement and even good conversation. So even though I am getting over this LO, I have zero doubt that I will find another one at some point. And then what.
Btw, we are friends, me and LO (long distance) and I think we can continue to be. I have found something that put me off the romantically and that is what is helping me get rid of the Limerence. But I also think that if he expressed any interest whatsoever and started talking to me like he did before, I would be sucked right back in.
C for cat says
Lola, I feel exactly the same. I feel as if without the habitual cycle (even if with years in between) of glimmer, attraction, reciprocation that makes me feel that rush of passion, feel attractive and desired, then what on earth is the point of me? But I also know that without that I also won’t have the horrific rejection, sadness, devastation and destruction of my relationship. I’m going to start therapy to try to find out who I am without all of that. As soon as I can pluck up the courage.
Problem Child says
I hope you are working through things C for Cat. I’m starting to wonder if more people struggle with this than we think? Maybe it is part of the human condition after all. If only we spoke to each other (friends, SOs, LOs, anyone), about love, sex, passion, desire and all the rest of it! If only it was as normal to talk about as it is to do it!
C for cat says
Thanks Problem Child. I have good days and bad. It’s two weeks since I last saw or heard from LO. It feels like so much longer and I even had to check the calendar today because I didn’t believe it was only that. I don’t know what to think about the sudden complete shut off of contact. Trying not to think about it at all. Half of me thinks he’s just a player and I have been stupid yet again and part of me thinks he is trying to let us both move on. Trouble is I have to see him again sometime and I don’t know which of those would make that easier for me!
I think desiring other people and even having PAs is more common than we think. But I don’t know how common limerence is.
Nisor says
I believe desiring others is very common, 99.9 percent , both women and men. You got eyes, don’t you??? Having PA is also very common on both sexes, just a few resist the temptation when reciprocated… they just don’t get discovered or talk about it. And the ones that resist regret it later as they get older! Let’s not fool ourselves. Desire is normal as a desire for a good meal , rest etc . It’s just more difficult to get two involved in the same desire as they may have SOs and feel guilty.
Adam says
“I believe desiring others is very common, 99.9 percent , both women and men. You got eyes, don’t you???”
“they just don’t get discovered or talk about it.”
A few years back, before the limerence, I crossed paths one Sunday morning in the grocery store, with a young woman and her little girl. She quite blatantly to me, but vague enough not for her daughter to figure it out, propositioned me. She was probably in her mid-20’s, I’m in my mid-40’s. She was very attractive. Like model attractive.
And you know the first thing that came to my mind? I thought why would I want to have sex with this (possibly serial) cheater? If she’s already trying to or has cheated on her husband this early in their marriage why would I want to be with a woman like that? And it made all the more easier to tell her no and “good day” and go about my day.
When my supervisor told me one time when I was talking about LO, he said “we all know you have a crush on her”. To which I replied “well sorry I am not dead, blind, or gay. And I don’t think the latter would even matter if I was.” And I am certainly not naive enough to think my wife has never found another man attractive or even entertained a fantasy about another man. But neither of us have crossed that line.
DmmitHardison says
Haha, I just read Adam’s response to this and I actually snort laughed.
No, he’s not naive. . . . if we’re out in public I’m the one that usually zeros in on the attractive people first. But, saying someone is attractive at “face value” can quickly become my lawd this person is ugly (ie attitudes or narcissistic traits among others etc etc) on the inside and that will make the “most attractive” person ugly on the outside too. (I’m from the south, ugly means about 15 million things, lol).
Finding someone attractive isn’t the same as limerence as I understand it. You know the saying “I may be on a diet, that doesn’t mean I can’t look at the menu”, it’s true up to a certain point, when you (General terms) start obsessing or building it up that’s when it becomes the issue.
Adam says
“Finding someone attractive isn’t the same as limerence as I understand it.”
No Momma it isn’t. I know I can’t compete with the Antonio Banderas or Idris Elba or Jason Statham …. wait those are all my man crushes … anyway I know I can’t compete with them. That doesn’t bother me. You picked me out of a pool of thousands of more attractive men. And finding someone attractive and being limerent for them isn’t love.
And while I have hurt you and not been the best husband, she isn’t you. She didn’t raise our boys while I was out chasing them damn rigs on the road. You did. She didn’t wait for me each night when I came home at god knows what *ucking hour.
She didn’t see me through my drinking. She didn’t see me through the times when my drinking got the best of me. She didn’t pull me back into the car at 70 mph when I almost fell out drunk. She didn’t see you save my life time and time again. I’d be dead drunk in a ditch if it weren’t for you and the boys. I’m sorry Momma. I am sorry this woman did this to me. I am sorry I let this woman do this to me. Blame me, not her please.
“Closing the door
how I thought I was sure
what I wanted in my life
cutting the ties
that bound both of our lives
just to blind to realize
I was chasing a fantasy
and hurting the one who’d never hurt me”
I did that to you and I am sorry sugar. But she will never replace you. Ever.
Anone says
Omg. This is me to an absolute T. How did you discover this about yourself? What do you think is missing that we do desperately seem to need?
Problem Child says
Well I could have written this Lola! I know where you’re coming from with the orgasms (or not, pardon the pun!) but I don’t think another man would solve that, I think it’s just the way I’m made, and I’m not good at saying what I like and don’t like. Communication, what a surprise I’m no good at that either!
Since LC started these last few days with LO, I have been looking for the glimmer with other men, so I know I will likely just move onto someone else, or hell, end up having two!
You will go on, I hope you find something on the site that helps. I think I’m in two minds as to whether I actually want to get out of it – is the high of early Limerence worth the crashing lows? I’m pretty sure putting the work in is worth it for the recovery, but what if I never recover?
Wishing you strength!
Mila says
Lola, PC, CforC,
a big hug for you all, if it‘s allowed here.
Lola, lack of satisfying sex is a problem for me and my limerence-prone self too, let’s just say SO has got some problems and things got a bit complicated/problem-ridden, and so there’s much less sex because of that.
And I love sex. Passion and sex are not superficial, they are a part of life and of feeling alive, and I do have your fantasy of keeping my family and having great sex with some LO on the side, which is all bulls…it.
PC, I also start unconsciously looking for new glimmerers when something with the LE happens, and I also ask myself if this will happen again and again without me ever learning.
The problem is also, that often things could really happen in these LEs and I‘m quite scared of doing stupid things and destroying my family. I was saved quite a few times because my LOs were decent people or not attracted or active enough.
But how can I only survive on the mercy of these men and not take control myself!
Snowphoenix says
@ladies — Lola, cfc, pc, Mila, + fellow limerents,
Sexual drive with its potent flow is regulated by our parasympathetic system; it depends on our own neurochemical body, rarely specific LO or SO out there. During high anxieties/stresses, eg. LE, sympathetic system is all fired up, curbing down or even stopping the flow of sexual energy, causing its “dysfunction” for a short or long term. This is based on biology, not just individual experiences.
Therefore, I believe that quality of sexual functioning is not affected or determined by (p/n) behaviors of SO or LO, but our reactions to them. Its desired peak lies on our own body and mind, regardless our sexual appeal or its biological strength. It can be “perfected” by trainings our mind and body — calming down sympathetic but stimulate parasympathetic system, which can be achieved ONLY through each individual’s efforts.
LE is NOT Passion and Sexuality — both are vital to health of body + mind; LE is the REACTION to uncertainty caused by LO’s ambiguous behaviors or restrained environments. Yet we limerents (during LE, not before) is neurologically (helplessly) driven for possible reciprocation (hopefully a total consummation with LO), believing or imagining it would take us to the Moon. How do we know? based on intensity of our Lustful passion/love in our body and fantasy?
All our own experiences have proven that when LE (excessive craving for reciprocation) is over, our instinctual drive or innate passion for pair-bond and other lusts will remain intact. NOTHING, except death, can kill it!
Uncertainty, impermanence, impossibility to have all…. are the norms of life by Default. If we could truly tolerate uncertainties and unknowns in all aspects of life, live in sufficient contentment and appreciation for what we already have, and being ready for an unpredictable ending of anything (LO’s rejection), then we would not slip into LE (even during our invigorating limerent lust) or other types of psychological disasters . Our passion, love, reason will remain strong when we genuinely appreciate LO’s existence and interact with LO publicly or privately (if unafraid or prepared for its possible dire consequences.)
Lived through LE one after another, I really resonate with all your feelings and pains, though I cared and worried more about the death of my own passion for LO, (his ever-changing internal world is truly beyond my control, useless to dwell on), so I made huge effort to keep the Phantom of LO alive in my system, so as not to fall into the melancholy abyss.
However, this detrimental LE has instigated a frenzy process for self-discovery and self-renewal. I’m fairly sure now that I won’t repeat a LE when encountering new LOs. My Ego determines to take a good care of all that is within my OWN psychological and physiological vicinity, so as not to depend on anyone else.
Cheers!
Mila says
Well. Sex is still best for me when two persons are involved and then „sexual functioning“ is dependent on how the other person „functions“, and also it is a way of communicating very intimately with someone you are close to, that‘s the beauty of sex for me.
Of course I can have my orgasms by myself,quite good ones, but that‘s something completely different.
Of course the sex drive isn’t dependent on LO or anybody, but sex drive automatically drives one to seek somebody out, and that enforces LEs or even creates them?
Mila says
Sorry if I misunderstood you, Snowphoenix. It seemed to me that you meant that sexual drive is something we should ideally regulate ourselves (like, it is only up to you if you haven‘t good sex) and shouldn’t have anything to do with controlling our LEs.
Snowphoenix says
@Mila,
Sorry I was not clear enough in my previous post. I meant:
Sex drive/energy (SE) is given at birth to everyone; it needs to flow (SEF) while making love; stronger and longer, the better. When under big worries, anxieties (LE), and other stresses (mental or physical), SE is slowed or blocked by the flared sympathetic system, so it becomes hard/harder to reach the desired peak.
SEF can be practiced and perfected (through various body works) regardless SO/LO presence or functioning. The quality of SE (E for experience) depends on both partners’ active, “available” b&m (body + mind), not just one side’s skills; the more emotionally engaged, the less stressed, the better “trained”, the better SE. Imagine how we and the other side would reciprocally invigorate when encountering (mental/physical) rigidity or Kama Sutra skills? (The majority of population falls between the two extremes).
An ideal SE (zero-little LE stress for a female): 1-2 dozens of O or riding on the wave of O from 20+ mins….
Lola says
@snowphoenix
I completely agree about the sex drive. Mine is very affected by everything else that goes on in life: stress, anxiety, relationships with friends. My SO, on the other hand (and maybe it’s a man thing) can go every day without care of anything else. And he is frustrated with me. But me and SO have lost our connection. We are very good “roommates” and get along great. But there is no spark. I don’t know how to get it back. It has been missing for many years. We are doing couples therapy now so maybe something will help.
I also believe, like Problemchild, that another man isn’t going to make me orgasm, because I am simply not wired this way. Only o can make it happen haha. It’s all in my head. But I am basically “chasing butterflies”. And he (LO) has made me feel a lot of those, only through chats.
I was feeling emotional connection with him too, and I could swear it was mutual, but he cut back. I haven’t felt that in a couple months at least.
I don’t know what would have happened if he was physically in the same city as me. I think I would have cheated. And it probably would have been disappointing and awkward and I would have lost my work friend and felt like garbage.
The distance forced us not to act on it and I feel that we are mostly back to being just friends now and there isn’t much tension. I can go on a day without talking to him, even longer and it doesn’t bother me (maybe a little, but not nearly as much as before).
It has been hard not being able to talk to anyone about it. I finally told everything to a friend and it was so good to get it off my chest. I also told our couple’s therapist, but it was in a 1 on 1 session. I thought it was important that they know what they are dealing with. Unfortunately I don’t do 1 on 1 with them anymore, and I can’t report status in front of SO.
I really wish that I could tell SO. but it would be so unfair to break his heart due to my selfishness. He is already so patient with me and my crazy.
Last night I had a dream that we are getting a divorce. A very realistic dream. And it was awful, I hated it. Nothing like a dream to make you really understand a “what if” situation.
Snowphoenix says
@Lola
I did(do) not know how to rekindle the sparks with a SO, so I insisted on my divorce a long while ago. The inhibition of satisfying SEs with my SO primarily derived from the previous culture in which SE was a taboo topic, viewed as a “dirty”/low animal instinct. As I said in another post, it took years of unlearning and relearning to discover who I was, what I was capable of, why I was unhappy feeling empty even in a “shinny” marriage….
You’re very insightful about your stressful situation with both SO or LO. I suspect that your LE is affecting the SEs with your SO, and your valid moral concerns and guilts would probably interfere SEs with LO, when you dare to cross the line. Do NOT trust our LE fantasies particularly for a LO in long distance (I tasted my bitter fruits in this area); your five senses are not even helping in this regard! it’s ALL in your HEAD — words with the imagination they bring to our mind could be powerful BEYOND all our imaginations!
In terms to increase SEF within, we have to rely primarily on ourselves with whatever means that work for us, w/o SO’s assistances. I know for sure that talking therapies would not help in this arena; you need to explore available and workable means around you in reality.
It sounds like you need a more self-discovery that takes time. Our dreams sometimes could give us a bit of hints and help us reduce our subconscious stresses, just watch colors of mine (posted in “LE with Dreams”). Each of them is a “real” experience that tells me about the subconscious “fed” by my conscious thinkings and feelings.
I wonder if you could increase more honest talks with your SO, without exposing your LE, which, I naively imagine, would reduce stresses in other areas of your shared life.
Adam says
“You’re very insightful about your stressful situation with both SO or LO. I suspect that your LE is affecting the SEs with your SO”
Under the assumption that SE is sexual encounters …
I didn’t find out about limerence until 6 months after LO left the job. And when I did find this place I disclosed to my wife about limerence. Long before I knew about limerence and long before LO left the job my wife had her suspicions that something was going on between us. And in the middle of high limerence I couldn’t tell my behavior was any different. I actually got offended when she confronted me.
Now can you imagine a spouse that thinks something is going on with you and another person would want to be intimate with you? Am I in their head or is it this other woman? Limerence inadvertently affects those around you as well. Spouses or children (depending their age) can see that your behavior has changed. Even if they don’t have the label of limerence to put on it. I can tell you first hand that limerence will most certainty affect your intimacy with your spouse at some point. Leaving the return to it entirely in their hands as they are the victim.
Lola says
@adam and @snow
I absolutely agree that limerance will affect my experience with SO, and also our children and how I act. But my experience with SO was already this way before I became limerant. A lot of coming out in our therapy, and I am a bit worried that we won’t make it. And to be honest, it if weren’t for kids, the decision would be a lot easier.
I do love my SO, but I don’t know if it’s enough.
And this isn’t completely irrelevant of whether I am limerant for someone else or not. I know there is no future with current (partial) LO, and I don’t even think I want future with him.
Snowphoenix says
@adam
Ah —
SEp ↔️ Sexual Experience/Encounter (in reality or fantasy or night dreams)
SE/SD ↔️ Sexual Energy/Drive (inside each person)
SEF ↔️ Sexual Energy Flow
…..
I leave the rest for your imagination….
I’ve heard that sensitive SOs (particularly female) could intuitively sense something gone “astray” in couple’s SEp, although unable to pin down what.
Lola says
Oh and those experience are sooo completely and utterly only in my head, and I KNOW reality is nothing like it.
I read a lot of romance novels and I have been very content with experiencing things through the characters. Some well written ones even gave me butterflies. But with LO I got to experience my own romance novel on real life and now that I have had a taste of it, it is hard to let go of that. But I am most definitely getting there. Until I find someone else to obsess over.
Snowphoenix says
@Lola
Based on my understanding of LE from LwL, it’s the other way around — some already existed issues in our life, respectively (mine: unrealized cPTSD, yours: unhappy marriage) are primarily (if not all) causes of our LE, and a “dreamy” LO (an idealized object, not a round person) won’t solve them — LE (with its fantasies) is NOT a genuine love, but an /addition obsession for rewarding reciprocation.
I heard there are free 12-step organizations just for “love addition” for men or women (run separately). Perhaps you want to check it out.
Many couples have been in your shoes. Some ended marriage for they believed it’s selfish to hold back other sides’ and their own future happiness + kids could sense and see the unhappiness. Some others stayed because they believed a skillfully pretended “happy family” would benefit kids (young ones) most. It depends on each couple’s authentic needs.
Is it possible for you to live separately for a period, without running to you LO, just to see how you would feel?
Have you read Dr. L’s post and its comments:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/a-philosophers-response-to-limerence/
Snowphoenix says
How do you like the character “Madame Bovary”?
I like classical tragedies of big and small, more than other genres…
Lola says
@snow I don’t even want to think about living separately. Out kids are little and they will be very affected. My husband admitted he has thought about separating, and I also admired it to him, but both feel that we should make an effort.
Lola says
@snow also I can’t run to LO because he is 1000 miles away happy with his family.
Snowphoenix says
@lola
Then could you use this LE pain as fuse/fuel to renew or reinvent yourself together with your SO, for the whole family’s sake? If a firm decision is made, effective means will be found — there is a wish, there is a way1
How did even you get into LE with a long-distance LO, online? You have to forget him, because you’re in LE with you own fantasy of him, NOT him as a person in sensible flesh or true mind — how do you know they’re telling you their own truths, not just playing with words a limerent loves to hear?
I’m too embarrassed to tell here my two LE experiences (after divorce) with “internet ghosts” across the Atlantic and Pacific, respectively…. The disappointment of encountering them in person was beyond my wildest imaginations…
Lola says
@snow you made me laugh out loud! That is a very legitimate question about how I got into LE with a long distance person hahaha. I talked about it in another post before.. we work for the same employer, but in different locations. We met once when he was visiting for work. It was a brief meeting. But for some reason I got a small crush, and then it turned out he did too, and after some chats we got to the point of admitting it to each other. I posted more about it in “tipping points in a limerant affair” blog post, if you feel like tracking this down.
I am a bit worried that he might find this blog and my post and recognize the situation. I mean, that’s a small chance if any, but still… I am paranoid.
My situation started 4 months ago, and I found this page about a month ago.
There was a period of time after we met when we talked all day long every day and about anything and everything. And I really got sucked in. And there was always the possibility that he would visit again or I would visit over there, but it hasn’t happened yet. We worked together but then I got a new position and didn’t work with him anymore. But then he got a new position and now we work together again. Funny how things work out.
So I know I am definitely making things up in my head that aren’t real, but I also know we had “something” in the beginning. I really don’t think I was the only one who got sucked in. But he got to his senses sooner than me.
I have history with getting bored and cheating. Not with my husband but previously before I met him. I have never cheated on him and never until now had developed this intense crush for anyone. I love the idea of it. I don’t love the actual person.
Lola says
@snow, I am now curious about the disappointment when you met them.. if you feel like sharing.
Snowphoenix says
@lola
If there are indeed near 1000 invisible online ghosts reading here each day, I think we need to watch out what we reveal. We have no idea whether any of our ex-LOs could happen to bump into or already here….
Your case sounds natural and understandable, I can sense your genuine glimmer and LE. Forgive my 2nd paragraph of last post, it more described my own previous experiences, which have made me laugh hard at myself nowadays…. My stories following some fantasies out of words were like Don Quixote’s adventure…. Luckily, no realistic harms of any kind, aside from the mild LE lament, had befallen on me.
I just finished writing done 3 long-distance “dating” stories — Dr L would not even classify them as authentic LE. But I decided not to post here, just keep them for my own entertainment and reflection.
Writing itself is more creative & therapeutic than“publishing” of any kind. Please understand.
Dr L says
This is a bit muddled, Snowphoenix. Arousal of all forms (sexual, anxiety, anger, etc.) is a sympathetic nervous system effect, not parasympathetic. “Flow of sexual energy” also doesn’t sound like biology, it sounds like mysticism.
Snowphoenix says
Dr L,
I definitely do not know biology enough to discuss with you on (para)sympathetic systems (SS). I read a long time ago (forgot from which source) that flow of sexual energy is curbed down by flared SS and readily believed it, according to on my own experiences most of the time.
I never read about mysticism; a friend of mine tried to persuade me into it, I just declined. However, some energy works or various meditations (primarily from the East) are believed and practiced to help circulate whole body’s energy flow, including sexual, mental, etc. As an off-n-on meditator of a long time, I know they work for my system.
Recently, I am surprised to get even the limerence’s dopamine-driven giddiness after some sessions of my own meditation. It stays for up to 12 hours.
Thank you for the scientific clarification.
Snowphonix says
@Dr L
During my own cocktail meditation, I literally feel energy/Qi’s movement — circulating locally or heading downward. I use my consciousness to “drag” it down all the way to my feet (failed sometimes). Then, my head feels so much clearer, free of all fogginess, heaviness, dizziness…
During the last couple of days of 10-day silence Vipassana Retreats, not only such energy/Qi’s flow could be clearly felt through the whole body (internally) — like water flowing on body in a shower, but also my consciousness could direct it wherever I wanted it to go. I have used it successfully to remove headaches or lower back pains and prevent the arrival of imminent cold, etc.
I don’t think one can feel the flow of blood; Eastern medicine with its energy/Qi theories make most of sense to my “mysterious” biological experiences. Now from a neuroscience’s perspective, what do you think is moving and flowing in the head and body, while the parasympathetic-system is flared up? What could it be called?
Dr L says
“Qi”, and concepts of energy medicine generally, are what I meant by mysticism. They have no basis in neuroscience. I wrote a blog post about it a while ago here about why I reject those sorts of explanations for limerence (or other forms of “energy flow”).
Snowphoenix says
“Qi”, and concepts of energy medicine generally, are what I meant by mysticism. They have no basis in neuroscience. I wrote a blog post about it a while ago here about why I reject those sorts of explanations for limerence (or other forms of “energy flow”). @Dr L
When I heard about the concept of mysticism (based on my friend) and Twin Flames, I immediately dismissed them almost as “superstitions.” (My background: surgeon Mom and a BS in computer science (+more); no religious or spiritual affiliation though leaning on Buddhism; currently exploring concept of “soul”/the Unconscious). Yet I can’t explain the familiarity (a sense of knowing a person before) I strongly felt when sideway glancing at the eyes of LO #1, #3, & #7 (from different ethnic and cultural groups) for just under 5 seconds.
In my learning and practice environment, Qigong, meditation, acupuncture, etc. are considered as physiological, not spiritual, used to reduce body + mind stresses and treat minor physical dis-eases. No one could explain why they worked for many, but had little effect in treating acute infections such as thyroiditis or cancers.
Leaning towards empiricism, I tended to test out some physiological beliefs or “mysticism” with my concrete, physical practices. If one particular type worked, I kept it without questioning why and how; if it is beneficial but not sufficient, I would then experiment mixing two or three to see if it could be more effective, thus my current “cocktail”.
I hope one day that some scientific measures could be applied to explore and study “energy medicine”. For now, my intuition tells me Qi/energy system has little to do with limerence; however, I will keep my daily meditation to see if it could help reduce (my cptsd) neurological dysregulaions and limerence flared “pains”.
Snowphoenix says
I questioned a lot whether the cake without the vital ingredient —the limerent desired Reciprocated Affection, could taste sweet. Tried with LO2, I knew it tasted lastingly bitter. So I resisted the similar offers by current LO (even in a perfect, romantic setting). To deny I have no regret is lying, but the Ego is strengthened by the willpower.
For me, mutual love-making is always hotter and more gratifying than just hot sex, which is NOT what most LE is pining for. If it’s detrimental to have the walking cocaine, LO, in reality, then have it in daydreams — a characteristic of LE. Some say, the meaningful world exists only in mind, not outside anyway…
“It is our imagination that is responsible for love, not the other person.” — Marcel Proust
Problem Child says
That’s really interesting and very much something to consider Snow Phoenix. But how to stop the daydreams spilling over into real life? I worry I’m going to shout his name in my sleep, or worse, during lovemaking with SO. You’re right about the hot sex, it’s never as good as the fantasy!
Snowphoenix says
@pc
I had a couple of small glimmers without going into an EA or during my unsatisfying marriage (It did not help my undiagnosed cPTSD, and LO4/SO was unable to serve as a surrogate parent), so I do not know how to prevent your daydreams from creeping into your night dreams or lovemaking with SO.
If LE worsens, further torturing your spirit or damaging your bond with SO, it might be beneficial to disclosure it to your SO, if you think he really cares for your well-being and your relationship. It’s a neuro-chemical “spell”, you may ask Dr L directly.
My LE intensity has been slowly decreasing with NC, LwL and my daily physical and spiritual practices; but it could flare up again once LO is in sight, which always hijacked my logical thinking and composure at the moments… Now, I understand why NC would work most effectively.
Problem Child says
Hi SP, there’s no way I can disclose to SO, not with our history, I’m not sure we would bounce back from it. I’m oscillating between wanting something to happen and wanting it to go away – this has been triggered by LO’s coldness again, so the fact I’m so strongly in two minds has at least lead me to believe that there is no future for LO and me, for now. It is hard and I am sad but it is for the best. I am hoping to slowly back out. Of course, the trouble will come if he blows hot again (or lukewarm in his case!). Any hint or crumb of affection and I’ll be right back there. It’s sickening but I do not want to make a fool of myself. I am disgusted with this attitude of mine – that the embarrassment is a higher incentive for putting the brakes on than risking my relationship with SO.
Snowphoenix says
@pc
What is your LO’s situation? (Less than a month here, I still haven’t read all the old posts yet).
I was in your shoe and knew exactly how you’re feeling. Going into reverie, like an excellent PET limerent (the brilliant term!), with just crumbs of LO’s superficial, friendly “affection”, has mortified me badly and is still gnawing me! The wound of ego-pride as a “lone wolf” is quite deep, which helped me as a “cane” to walk away from LO, and even conjured up the Phantom.
Now sure if I want or could ever walk away from the Phantom who is living in my psycho-system.
Problem Child says
Hey SP, LO is in a relationship and in reality I have no idea what he’s feeling of course, but I have been studying body language, texts, eye contact and how long it lasts, you know the story, so have convinced myself there’s something there and his situation is causing the hot/cold action, when it could just be that he’s going through things I have no clue about and is totally unrelated to feelings or lack thereof that he has for me!
Snowphoenix says
@pc
Then we are on the same kind of boat….
In reality, don’t trust anything you feel or think you see as signs of either way. Our LE’s visions are very blurred by our altered mental state and double-edged fantasies…. Dr L points out in another post that what limerent brain think or feel has little to do with the reality or how LO feels. I strongly agree with it now.
When I thought my LO was keeping a distance from me due to his self-claimed fidelity for his trustful wife, he actually went off with a new secret LO, but he still tried to keep me around like a “pet”. Then with proofs I caught his lies to “my face” (in texting), he neither denied nor explained. Who was I to him?
We never know others’ invisible, changing mind and their behaviors behind our back. So just focus on your own purposeful life, persistently filling in that hole by yourself — No One Else could help, Only your Self!
Problem Child says
Thank you SP, you are right I know. It’s the willpower I lack! It’s so much easier to give into the fantasy than to live with what’s real. I’m all happy and dreamlike when it’s in my head but at some point the lines get blurred and it slips over into my everyday life, ie I’ll end up texting having convinced myself he’s into me, get a short, closed reply and be back to the catastrophe of feeling rejected. If I can control my actions, which in truth is the only thing that is in my control, I might have a chance, but I have terrible willpower! Though sometimes I wonder if I tell myself that as an excuse to do it anyway… not my fault, I’ve no willpower…
Snowphoenix says
@pc
LO’s lukewarm push and pull with the crumbs of seemingly affection makes us paranoid in the middle of LE.
My subconscious fear of abandonment melange actually unknowingly saved me to some degree, it initiated a firm departure from all my LOs/SOs, so I would not feel being abandoned in an inescapable abyss, like before “escaping” from my previous “open-prison”….
Unborn with, a willpower is gained by facing adversities and deliberate practicing. Give it a try, bit by bit, you’ll gain it, which WILL definitely give you growing, lasting gratification that could help fulfill the hole you think you have. Convince yourself, you have NO other choices but being STRONG!
What’s wrong with changing and growing one’s personality in a more beneficial way? Does anything in the world remain permanent, besides “change” itself?
Snowphoenix says
Typo: “Going into an EA or LE”
Another idea: journaling or creatively write down (w/ paper and pen) your fantasies with LO and then shred them, which would transfer thoughts and emotions onto paper — writing therapy.
To self-treat my cPTSD (including LE), I HAND write down (twice a day or whenever needed) all my big or small fears and resentments of the moment, release them in words in the end, and tear paper to pieces. Somehow it’s effectively easing my neurological dysregulation.
Mila says
Now that you quote Proust, I remember reading „Swann in love“- he really knew about limerence, didn’t he..
Snowphoenix says
Yes, he did. He’s brilliant!
Great writers are all acute observes and verbal painters of human behaviors and phenomena, especially human sufferings and fleeting joys.
However, the passion for literature could lead a tendency to beatify and fan LE fire, unless limerents creatively write down their own stories, which could quench LE.
Mila says
As I remember vaguely (it‘s long ago that I read it), Proust describes quite well the end of the limerence, how he cannot see the glimmer anymore etc, I remember it as quite cruel and not at all beautifying..
Snowphoenix says
p.s. Dostoyevsky’s works portrait psychologies of ordinary people better than Proust, whose one gigantic book focuses on the upper class of the time. However, neurological and psychological issues, such as LE and cPTSD, OCD, etc. could invade and reside with all of us regardless race, gender, culture, social or economic status.
Mila says
Dostoyevsky is one of the greatest, but depresses me sometimes🙈
Limerent Emeritus says
On the topic of ProustL: https://livingwithlimerence.com/update-and-a-little-light-relief/
Snowphoenix says
Proust helps expand my perspectives 👀on ordinary life, with its uncountable small things seemingly trivial, or forgotten, or ignored by my OCD.
Aside from his long, dreary words, I think he has keen eyes for details and verbally “beautify” — artistically depicting (fuss about), most boring objects, or heart-wrenching human events, like great painters with their brush.
“The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes.” — Proust
Snowphoenix says
I meant: long, dreary sentences…
Neither French or English is my native tongue, so I read the translation with pauses to look up key words.
Mila says
😂😂😂
touché.
Blabla Madeleines wtf…
Mila says
This was meant as a reply to L.E. s link, of course
Limerent Emeritus says
Full disclosure:
I’ve never read Proust. My favorite author on the meaning of life is Guy de Maupassant.
I had to read “Boule de Souif” for my Modern Short Stories class. It stuck with me.
I found a 10 volume set of his work published from 1910-1915. I bought it and read through all of them. It took over 2 years.
But, it was worth it.
Snowphoenix says
@LE
Started reading classical literature (esp. French, Russian, British, German, etc) at age of 10, I still have not finished Proust (whose work I heard 8 years ago). Father (if alive) would definitely claim that books are the root my Limerent brain! I read some stories of Guy de Maupassant in my teens, forgot about them now.
@Mila
I cried for Dostoevsky’s “Idiot” and thought I would end up in an asylum like him in my old age.
The smell of fresh oil paints for metal coats is my personal “Madeleine” since it was the job of my poetic, platonic LO1, with whom I had beautiful memories w/o regrets. It’s not easy to get that soul-imprinted smell anywhere in public…
Mila says
@Snowphoenix,
I too read a lot of the classic at a very young age, probably without understanding them. I think I finished Prousts temps perdu, but cannot remember much, same with „Ulysses“ , didn’t understand anything:)
I was young and just read everything, anything.
But I remember Crime and Punishment quite distinctly, it caused me some sleepless nights and nightmares. Also Brothers Karamasov,and Anna Karenina. The great Russians have this talent to disturb me.
But! Haven’t read de Maupassant. Maybe I put it on my list.
Snowphoenix says
@Mila,
The language barrier stopped me to begin “Ulysses” after reading Joyce’s other works. So I watched the movie a couple of times and think I understand it. Studied Homer’s “Ulysses” in college.
Russian classics really stir up one’s blood at any given time! “Crime and Punishment” is the only work of D. I have not finished. I plan to get it done soon. Tolstoy is great in depicting societal, relational dances. I was lonely, shy and socially awkward (afraid of any kind of attention everywhere — caused by childhood traumas), so befriended mostly with literary characters from childhood through youth. They were absolutely real to my young mind!
So later, fantasizing anything became easier and habitual, feeding my mind for whatever it craved — the world exists through the perceived mind….
Limerent Emeritus says
I read “Ulysses.” I don’t remember a thing about it except that my English prof read aloud from it and what came out was amazing. Joyce is an aural writer.
The only Joyce work I remember is “The Dead.” The last few pages are truly poignant.
The prof said that I wrote like Joyce. He said my punctuation was horrible in print but when he read it aloud, he could hear me talk.
Mila says
L.E. ,now that you say it, the only thing about Ulysses I remember is the monologue of Molly Bloom because I saw a theater piece on it where two women recited it, very impressive, probably you are right about him an aural writer. Are you a writer?
Snowphoenix says
Earlier today I woke up from a nap with a mild panic attack about losing my LE that used to bring me so much heavenly highs, as well as hellish lows… But I, unwisely, tend to forget pains once wounds are superficially scared.
Long before discovering LwL, I already knew it was my LE with a phantom of the vague LO (I still can’t remember his face at his absence) that was gratifying my craving mind. I thought such imagination with little expectation for a realistic reciprocity is a positive mentality, like writers and artists having their personal muses.
My current LE (even when it was tormenting me) did instigate some creativities, a huge liberation of my inner child’s long-repressed voice, a process of self-development — intensive studies on Stoicism, Narcissism, cPTSD, Jungian theories and journeys, Psycho-System Analysis, other philosophy and psychology in general… all of which helped the discovery more about my Self.
Even three weeks ago, I rejected the idea of killing LE, believing the death of its inspirational part would send me to an abyss of melancholy. Such a fear is behind today’s panic attack, that was gone after an immediate sitting meditation for 25 minutes.
According to Dr L, I hope I could live with the positive memory of LE and somehow let it still be a driving force for my healing process and purposeful living.
Lola says
@snow, I too stated reading/ listening to various books about human nature and psychology , and identified myself with almost every type they mentioned. I do have a lot of narc in me which has gotten worse since LO was found.
And I have had a couple of panic attacks in the last weeks, after years of not having any. I think I have way too much on my plate.
He didn’t even talk to me today and I am sort of ok with it, but a little bit sad to see this really disintegrate little by little.
Snowphoenix says
@lola,
All of us has some narc traits, normal and necessary to achieve our concrete goals. Based on a Narc test, I have 35% narc and 65 empath traits, which do not make me an -ist of either kind. I wish I could have been an empathic, grounded Sensor, but whatever in others’ head and heart (p&n), except LO’s, have failed to get into my system. I’m too self-centered…
Repeat here: please do not ignore panic attacks, that shocks our entire psychophysiological system, possibly instigate other dormant dis-eases inside body. Small ones once in a while might be okay, watching out the increasing situation. Try some specific physical means, even just brisk walks, to reduce anxiety/panic attacks immediately after the onset .
No one else, including med doctors or shrinks, can concretely DO anything for your internal system. Only YOU, your body, mind, and vital energy generated within….
Since last fall, I’ve practiced to “stare at” sadness (feeling like aching on chest) that came often after my nightmares. One middle of dead night after 40-50 minutes of meditating on it (silently repeating: I’m sad, my heart hurts), my sadness and its aching literally moved away from my system. So give it try ! (w/o any comforting food or alcohol)
Adam says
I make decisions all the time as a father, husband, brother, son and co-worker. But when it came to my limerence I only made one decision myself; and that was disclosing to my wife.
In limerence I let LO make every decision. She set the boundaries of the relationship. She decided what she liked and what she didn’t. What was okay and what wasn’t. She elicited the attention that she wanted and put a halt to what she didn’t. Not that I think I ever crossed a line with her. At least that she didn’t have to verbally utter. I am starting to see/think that LO wasn’t as innocent as I would like to think she was.
She knew how to get my attention and my indecision is why she could manipulate me. And everyone in the office knew it to. Some weeks ago I was talking to my supervisor on the phone and he made a joke that “to bad LO isn’t here, I could always have her call you when I needed you to get something done fast”. We laughed at it but he told me actually did that several times.
After disclosure to my wife I’ve let her make all the decisions too. What is too much. What is too hard on myself. What she will tolerate from me. How long she will tolerate this. Reading everyone’s comments I remember seeing someone post about LE fantasy spilling into real life. I’ve done it all almost. I’ve said LO’s name in my sleep on multiple occasions. One of the reasons for lack of intimacy is because of LO and my LE. No one wants to hear the fantasies of their spouse spill over into real life intimacy.
I don’t know if this is because I do make the vast majority of decisions in my family’s day to day life that I embraced so much indecision in my limerence. I mean I know I like to be “mothered” and LO and my wife both do it. I think the lack of having to make decisions was a bit blissful for me. Due my wife’s bi-polar and anxiety, a son growing into a man and finding his own path in life, I am exhausted with decisions, chores, errands, etc. letting a woman mother me was a nice break from always being the one that had to take the initiative with everything.
And then of course, luckily for me, LO made the NC decision for me. Granted I have done the only good thing in this LE and have continued to maintain the NC choice LO made.
Someone above made mention of ego in limerence. I am certain I never would have crossed a line with LO. But I wonder if I am being honest with myself if I was curious if I could have. Do women still notice me? I have for sure learned that this mid life thing sucks. I have questioned my own morals, past decisions, thoughts on the future, who I am as a person, my role as a husband and father. All these things are coming at me from all different directions. What if she had been interested? What would I have done? How would I have acted it out?
It is strange having thoughts that were previously pretty foreign to you, now entering you head. I am trying to make this limerence and mid life something to learn from myself about. It may not have been a pleasant experience for most of the people involved but if I don’t learn from it than it really will be a wasted experience. What kind of mid life is it if it’s not a crisis?!
Nisor says
Yes Adam, this limerence thing seems to be a crisis at whatever age. I think it is to make us re-examine our minds and souls, to find the real purpose for living, and our true selves. I have never before in my life had thought so much about life and its true meaning as of now. I didn’t come with any satisfactory answers yet… except this quote:
“Never regret anything that has happened in your life. It cannot be changed, undone, or forgotten. So take it as a lesson learned and move on.”
Sending you love and a truck 🛻 of blessings.
DogGirl says
It just seems like for me personally, that I have to get to a certain place in my head before any one decision is made. I guess that means I’m indecisive about things although obviously it depends on the decision and the ramifications of what lies ahead after the decision is made. When it comes to my LO I worry that I am rationalizing my lack of decision making, that for now it’s ok not to make any big decisions to get out of it, and I don’t feel like I’m ready to move forward or take the big step. Something’s telling me to wait, slow down, nothing drastic is going to happen (like there is no way in hell this will ever become a sexual affair). He’s 1600 miles away. But I’m married and I’m having one hell of an affair in my head, although that has tempered itself the past few days. I think I am moving away from the LO emotionally. I see changes in the way I’m looking at him but it ain’t over yet because the changes aren’t 100% in the right direction. I keep thinking well you are doing baby steps and moving in the right direction so that is a positive. But I’m still tied to the post and all tangled up and can’t get the big knots undone. So I keep waiting on myself, to wake up and say this is the day I’m going to shed all of this LE experience, but I don’t think it happens that way. My past LOs died a little death. They just eventually got on the horse and rode into the sunset. I didn’t even know what limerence was back then but they finally faded. I just get the feeling this one is different. Or maybe it just feels that way because I am so stuck inside myself and can’t see beyond it. I have no vision of what it’s like without this LE. I want that vision, I want to see the light at the end of the tunnel. But so far all I see is darkness.
Lola says
@dogGirl Sounds like you have a long distance LO like me. The distance certainly helps. I don’t trust myself if I was anywhere near him. But at the same time, maybe the distance helps feed the fire, because we are imagining things that aren’t true and we don’t get to see with our own eyes that they aren’t true. Instead I am thinking “well the only reason he is acting this way is because he is so far and he knows nothing can happen”. “If only we were in the same place, we would have such a passionate connection”. Yea right… don’t we just love believing our own lies?
Beth 2 says
Only you all would understand. I had what my phone said was a spam call so I ignored it. Later I realized it was LO as he left a message. Because I deleted him from my several months ago, I completely forgot his phone number. He said he was hoping to see me at a school gathering today and since I wasn’t there he decided to call. He said we’d catch up soon.
I texted back and said I hope to get to some gatherings but was being cautious with scheduling things as my parent is very ill. I said my phone was charging and sorry I missed his call.
He responded saying he’s very sorry and wished us all well and hopes to see us and to care and we’d catch up soon.
Maybe he truly cares about me in a platonic friend type way. My brain is in high gear and I feel a slight return of a longing that will never be filled. I also know there’s no hope do to barriers and unreciprocated affection. It just won’t and can’t ever be more.
There’s a longing for his friendship and also for a flood of dopamine to take this pain away. The pain of losing one parent 5 years ago and the pain of another one being on hospice. I think I am ok. Just need some friends here. No contact was helping but it was always there. Maybe it’s what my counselor suggested. Be friendly not friends. I think I did ok today with friendly.
Beth 2 says
Ok to be honest with myself I think deep down it feels like he must like me. I remember once he told me it wasn’t that he doesn’t care he just can’t care. This was after I went to him for something after he told me he felt I was emotionally dependent on him and I could no longer go to him for emotional support.
IMHO says
Hi Beth,
I feel for you, a call out of the blue. Do you think you did well not to call him back, and just text him ?
The ‘let’s catch up soon’ is a killer, as creates that awful uncertainty.
I hope you have other good friends you can call and lean on whilst you are going through this difficult time to provide some emotional support that you need. That may help as well as some fun stuff you enjoy doing for your own health and happiness. Best wishes
frederico says
Dear Beth
Your post is powerfully written and, amongst some of the incomprehensible ramblings which have appeared here recently, it is so arresting. I cannot quite remember the background to your story, unfortunately, but I feel sure that you have friends here, even tacit ones. I remember reading on one of the blogs, from a couple of years ago, that there were some one thousand viewings of this site each day.
I am so sorry that you are enduring the pain of a parent in a hospice. I was much younger when this happened to me and I remember how devastating it can be.
You seem to be following the perceived wisdom when it comes to your LO and I also like your counsellor’s advice to be friendly, not friends, if you cannot always be fully NC.
I admire you for deleting the contact details. Despite my having been decisive about deleting my LO’s messages and photos, I reinstated the contact details because it had felt so final. I still feel in a state of limbo (exacerbated by my own actions, it seems) and I can really empathise with how I think you are feeling right now.
I now have the idea that letting a LE tail off into a friendship, in the hope that it will eventually become a conventional friendship, may be a way forward. It prolongs the pain but the pain of cold hard NC is also hard to bear.
Take care of yourself.
Mila says
Dear Beth,
it sounds to me that he does like you, if not in the way you like him, quite simply put, and that he won’t ever give you what your limerence craves, but could give you a „normal“ friendship.
But it seems you know all this and that you cope in an admirable way so far.
Having a friendship with him means in the beginning surely toeing a certain line, being aware of this line and not crossing it ever, being quite vigilant of your own expectations and desires.
You are in a vulnerable state right now and I don’t know if it’s advisable to try to have this friendship right now. Better to be friendly as advised, and rely on other friends for the time being?
I feel somehow addressed by „incoherent ramblings“:) and maybe it’s anyway time for me to stop writing here in a kind of replacement for writing to LO. My mind is too much on that LE and being here doesn’t help that at the moment.
I wish you all the best, Beth!
C for cat says
I don’t think you are a culprit for ‘incoherent ramblings’, Mila, so don’t worry. I haven’t noticed anything incoherent from anyone. Maybe a bit complicated for my struggling brain at the moment but that’s it.
Beth, things sound so hard for you at the moment. This is the last thing you need complicating things! It sounds as if you did the best thing, to reply in a friendly but non-committal way. We have to do things our brains and hearts fight against sometimes, to make life in the long run better.
I also really like the idea of being friendly, not friends. I will try to remember that for when I have to see SO again. He said could we be good friends but after the total lack of contact when he knew I was sad, I don’t think that’s happening anyway! So friendly, not friends, will be the best thing.
Problem Child says
Does it not take all sorts – eloquent epic writers, poetic dream sequencers, incomprehensible ramblers, to make a self-help forum? Is this not a place to relieve our frustrations and worries without judgement on our thoughts, actions or indeed, the quality of our writing?
Come back when you need/want to Mila, your posts help me a lot, if even just to know there are others who have the same thoughts.
Snowphoenix says
@Mila,
Forget about those harsh “critics”!
Just about 100% people who come here are LE sufferers who can hardly find a non-judgmental place/person in reality to express our life-rocking pains and wounds. This site is based on universal compassion first, if shared views, understandings, and writing styles, etc. are impossible to obtain.
Let’s practice together ignoring others’ colored lens, toughening our resilience, and gaining self-confidence, by speaking freely as much as we wish — a superbly effective tool to release psychophysiological stresses!
Mila says
Thank you cforC, PC and SP,
I didn’t really think I was meant with the incoherent ramblings, but I had a feeling that I might be rambling nevertheless:)
Also that this site is sometimes a life saver, but sometimes just a means to dwell longer on my LE in my mind than is healthy.
I agree that we are a bunch of different people with different needs and ways to express ourselves and it would be good to feel safe and not judged here. Everyone can just ignore posts that they don’t like, no?
Anyway, I‘ll still try not to write here so much.. still very interesting to read all your posts, thank you all.
Snowphoenix says
@Beth
I think you strength with a firm belief, that your LO is holding a deep Platonic affection for you, could help you pass this extremely vulnerable time.
7 months after the glimmer with a content, unrequited limerent passion for LO, my father suddenly got a brain stroke and passed away in 10 days. LO “stepped” in friendly consoling me in person and writing. Knowing it was platonic, w/o any knowledge of LE but bottomless blues, I slipped into LE immediately, because it floored my system with much needed dopamine. That’s why I understand what challenges you’re facing.
Like your therapist and many of us here have encouraged, accept and appreciate LO’s sincere, Platonic care, but expect NOTHING more. Express all your pains and stresses to the therapist and us here, so as to avoid an urge to verbalize them to LO in any form. Our LE brain would easily trick us back into that downhill slope….
Cry as much as you want, then it will be easier to clear minded and strong!
Beth 2 says
Thanks everyone I am doing better today. Some excellent points were made. Writing it out helped and I know I need to focus on avoiding uncertainty. That really flares things up so thank you IMHO for pointing that out. My goal now is to decrease any potential uncertainty. That really was eye opening. There’s been more of that than I realize.
I do think the text back rather than calling helped too. It was more controlled. Not only do I want to be free from this LE but limerence in general. Thanks again to all of you.
Magic 8 Ball says
I’ll be candid with myself; there’s a part of me that believes he must have some feelings for me. I recall a conversation where he explained that it’s not about not caring but an inability to invest emotionally. It happened after I sought his support, and he expressed concerns about emotional dependence.