One of the best ways to understand limerence is as an altered state of mind that constitutes addiction to another person. There is a solid basis to this claim, given what’s known about the neuroscience of reward, addiction and the power of uncertainty for reinforcing desire, but there’s also a lot of behavioural clues that when we’re in the grip of limerence we’re not thinking straight. And I mean that in every sense. Sometimes our thinking is downright crooked.
Limerents frequently exhibit many of the classic signs of addictive behaviour: rationalisation, minimisation, neglect of other responsibilities, monomaniacal focus on a single goal, dishonesty.
Early on in the limerence experience there is a sort of willful naivety about the situation you are in. It’s easy to kid yourself that you can handle it. In this phase there is an obvious disjoint between the part of you that desperately wants to indulge the highs, and the more cautious, prudent, part of you that knows the truth – that you are playing with fire.
One of the ways to break through the fog of rationalisations is to look for objective measures of deceit. If you instinctively conceal your feelings for your limerent object, then it suggests that you know at a subconscious level that you are engaging in something clandestine.
One of the best indicators of this, is keeping secrets.
Privacy versus secrecy
We all have aspects of our lives that we want to keep hidden. Sometimes secrets are normal and natural, and more to do with maintaining privacy than deceit.
It’s self-serving to use this example, but I blog pseudonymously for this reason – it is not just my life that will become exposed if I de-anonymise. Everything that I have written about my experiences with limerence is truthful (within the usual limits, I’m not claiming to be a paragon), but making it public invites scrutiny that would be uncomfortable for me and others.
So, where is the boundary between privacy and secrecy? I think it comes down to how you would feel if the secret was revealed.
Guilt versus embarrassment
Some secrets are driven by guilt, others by embarrassment. Most people wouldn’t want naked pictures of themselves to be leaked online as it would be hugely embarrassing, but they probably wouldn’t feel guilty if it happened. We keep things about ourselves secret to avoid feelings of discomfort, and the nature of that discomfort can be instructive about our true motivation. If you know (even unconsciously) that your loved ones would be deeply hurt by your secret conduct, you are likely to feel guilt rather than embarrassment.
You need to be fairly adept at understanding your own drives to use this distinction productively. If you were “caught in the act” by someone whose opinion you cared about, would you feel abashed, or would you feel ashamed? Would the revelation reveal your corrupted integrity, or just bruise your sense of dignity? If you fear being caught, you’re likely to be keeping guilty secrets. If you fear being ridiculed, you’re likely trying to protect your status or privacy.
Again, it’s hard to be absolute about this, as many people feel guilty about things that they don’t have control over – a sobering example being shame over childhood abuse. Guilt is not always rational, or an unfailing barometer for your moral compass, but it is difficult to knowingly behave in an immoral manner and not feel guilty.
Proof of willingness to conceal
One unequivocal fact about keeping secrets is that you are deliberately concealing something important about yourself. If that something is an overwhelming infatuation with LO, then it follows that you must know at some level that it is a feeling that cannot be openly shared.
Caution is one thing – I’m not saying that you should declare your undying passion to the world – but if you are consciously concealing your true feelings, lying about your motives, or gaslighting your partner about your relationship with your LO, then you are prioritising keeping the secret over your honesty. That’s a sure sign that you know deep down that the relationship is founded on dodgy ground.
Most telling of all is when the willingness to conceal is effortless. During limerence, it can feel easy to push aside the guilt and carry on with seeking the intoxicating reward. It’s ironic that when guilt could be most useful in highlighting misconduct, it is robbed of its power by the giddiness of limerent euphoria.
A habit of clandestine behaviour
An unintended consequence of casually lying about your feelings is that it can become a habit surprisingly quickly. Once you deliberately conceal your intentions to protect a secret, you pass a critical first moment of deceit. As the old saying goes, you are then doomed to weave a tangled web.
People who have affairs sometimes confess that they cannot remember how they developed the ability to brazenly lie to their spouse. The habit of deceit crept up in small steps, small lies of convenience, until it became second nature. They got so adept at masking their true intentions, that they ended up wearing the mask routinely.
That is not a healthy way to live, to put it mildly. Like any other bad habit, the damage done by keeping secrets can escalate dramatically. Over time, it degrades your integrity, degrades your relationships, and ultimately degrades your character.
Acting with purpose
Secret-keeping is a red flag. It’s a sign that you are not living with purpose, because your public image is not based on your authentic self, or at least a complete picture of your authentic self. Secrets should be used with caution, and infrequently.
As a general rule for deciding whether you should follow a particular course of action, if you intend to keep your conduct secret, you probably shouldn’t be doing it. Again, I don’t mean you should live the unfiltered, public life of an Instagram influencer, I mean you should not need to falsify your preferences, or compartmentalise your life if you are living with purpose.
The decision to be purposeful protects against limerence, and automatically promotes good conduct. If you feel the glimmer for someone new, you don’t tell yourself convenient lies, keep secrets to protect your supply of limerent reward, or plot clandestine ways to hide your contact. Instead, you diplomatically minimise contact with LO and reflect about the health of your long-term relationship (if you are in one), or you openly and honestly investigate the possibility of a romantic relationship with LO.
There’s no need for secrets if you are free to act with purpose.
Limerent Emeritus says
As LO #4 put it in her goodbye,
“I’ve been trying to put myself in your wife’s shoes. How would you feel if she was corresponding with a man she was attracted to in the same capacity that you write to me? If you have to hide our correspondence from your wife, it’s not good.”
Every list of indicators of an EA list secrecy as one of them. As careful as I was, I still leaked like a sieve.
My wife tolerated my acquaintance with LO #4 but she never endorsed it and until I came clean, she had no idea how deep in the weeds it went.
My wife thought LO #4 might have been after me.
Nisor says
“If you instinctively conceal your feelings for your limerent object, then it suggest that you know at a subconscious level that you are engaging in something clandestine.” Dr. L.
Well, when one have a SO , it really is difficult to disclose to SO, for fear of hurting them, not just with the immediate truth, but after the disclosure there will be concern for the SO to always questioning ones behavior and consequent pain. The limerent longs to talk to someone about their LE, longs for understanding; for certain it is not SO who’s going to be so understanding to soothe the pain every time you feel down in the dumps or feel happy for you when you’re high. Let’s not kid ourselves, there’s so much SO can put up with. It’s like opening a Pandora’s box. Unless you disclose and go for therapy together, that is, if SO is agreeable and stays with you. Most limerents suffer alone, it’s not guilt or shame , it’s sadness maybe fear of what’s happening to them beyond their control. It’s a matter of not hurting your SO and destroying so many years of what you’ve built together . So, one develops a resistance to pain and sorrow, learn how to live with it? I’m referring to the limerents who do not want to stay in that state of addiction and move forward with their lives. But the fear of deterioration and leaking is there…Wish it never happened to me !
Serial Limerent says
My gosh, yes, I felt so alone before I came to these blogs/forums. And found all the same things I’d been going through, in other people’s comments.
MJ says
This is one issue in my LE where I feel a sense of relief I have no formal SO in my life at the moment. However there is also a great sense of sadness I feel because of that.
I can remember being married and having attraction to Women that I should not have been so attracted to. In a way I feel like I purposely tried NOT to cover my tracks all that well because a part of me wanted to make my wife jealous. I had this sick habit of being a pompous ass about my ways in a strip club, or what I was doing out so late at night, with a “Friend”. Never really coming clean about what I was doing, and never fully admitting I was simply trying to have a PA.
I look back on those ugly times and sincerely regret my behaviors. Because I was much younger and way too immature for someone as good as my Wife actually was. It’s probably why I am a firm believer now in retribution because the sadness I feel over this entire LE is probably well deserved. I wonder if I were still married, how much more out of control this LE could have increased, if I had to keep it concealed. Which is why I probably why I identified so well to Anna’s situation, in her Husband’s weak moment with a LO at his place of employment. I feel like that might have totally been me in that situation. Telling the Wife, but not really telling her or being sincerely honest about the matter.
This is truly a well written article, that had I discovered years ago when I was still a married man, would like to believe it would have resonated well with me. Then again, it was a totally different time then..
Nisor says
Hi Mj, how are you doing?
See, no one is born knowing. One learns as one goes in life, and grow older and older, gain experience. That’s why old people are always giving advice to the youngsters, (that they could care less to hear)so they don’t make the same mistakes as them, at least to avoid them. But no, no one learns by someone else’s mistakes. You got to go through it and feel it in your skin in order to understand it. One is not the same person at 20 as when one is 30, or 40 or 60, or even older. One is always making mistakes until it’s almost too late to do something about it, leaving behind broken lives perhaps, lost opportunities, things we wished we should not have done, but did it anyway (didn’t know better). Thus, the only thing left is regrets. At least, let’s hope we become wise enough to recognize it, forgive ourselves, and live in peace with it. Or else one can wind up in the mad house. We’re smarter than that. Such is life… too bad we only get one shot at it so we can correct the mistakes we made and make good for it. Again, what’s left is to forgive ourselves and try to make peace within ourselves. Nothing more one can do.
A big hug for you.
MJ says
Thank you Nisor. Forgiving myself is a real challenge.
Lovisa says
MJ, I’m so curious. Why did you want to do those things? It kind of sounds like you wanted to hurt your wife emotionally, why?
MJ says
It was a different time then. I attribute that to being immature. Too young and too stupid to marry. She haggled me for years to marry her right out of high school and I held her off for about 8 years. I was never in a hurry. She was. I knew I would want to marry eventually. Just not when she wanted. She loved me so much, that I felt there like there wasn’t anything I could ever do wrong. Or wrong enough. I felt invincible. So fooling around just became common for me. Like, let me have cake, and let me eat it too.. Almost like a sick thrill.
I’m not proud of any of this as it shows my true colors and the weak, insensitive piece of $#!+ I am. This is why I can get so damn angry about things not going the way I want. Like why am I depressed??
Then dare ask my God, through tears, why won’t LO, the Woman of my dreams, love me??
Please.. As if I really don’t know..
Lovisa says
Wow, that is interesting. It makes sense, but I don’t think I’ve known anyone else in a similar situation. I guess what matters is that you learned from it. I hope she learned, too. I think facing it with honesty is wise. Thanks for answering my question.
Nisor says
Hi MJ,
Now I can see why you’re so sad! You’re not given a chance to enjoy freely your youth. I’m of the opinion that men should not marry at least until 35…. A man needs plenty of time to develop their character and make a career, if they go to University or college, that’s half of his youth, he needs to be established economically before getting into any commitments.
First, a man needs to live alone and enjoy their single hood, and when he’s ready in his mind, then have a live-in period with a partner, again when he’s ready for commitment and these two stages disappear , he’s done with it, feels in his mind that he’s ready for commitment, only then he should start looking for a wife.
MJ , you were not ready for marriage then. You’re too immature. You got married because you’re haggled. Sorry to say it so raw, but I have a son and he didn’t give himself a chance to enjoy his single-hood after university, even though I told him, he went ahead got married fast, got divorced fast… (I think you’re trying to punish your wife for making you lose your freedom, the unconscious works weirdly, you needed more time to commit.)
Some women are in a hurry to get married because they think they have an expiration date… over thirty they’re considered old! Thanks God that’s changing! Nowadays men are going and accepting older, more mature women for their wives, even divorced ones. (At least in the country I live in now) .
You have to forgive yourself and stop punishing yourself for no reason at all. So is life. Pick up the pieces and continue your journey.
A big hug for you.
Limerent Emeritus says
@Nisor,
The Chief Petty Officer at my NROTC unit in college told me that any man who married before 30 was an idiot.
If LO #2 had accepted my proposal, I’d likely have been married at 30. As it turned out, I got married a month shy of 33.
My wife is 9 years younger than I am. She was a year out of college when we met. I knew that she was going to change a lot in the next decade and I wondered if she would regret marrying when she did. But, I thought she was worth the risk.
The first few years were really rough but we made it through. We were in a marriage counselor’s office less than 2 years after we got married.
Some of the subsequent years were even tougher and there was a time that I wouldn’t bet on us staying together.
I’ve made a lot of marginal decisions in my life but asking her to marry me was the best decision I ever made.
Lovisa says
Your perspective is interesting, Nisor. I respectfully disagree. In my culture, men serve a 2-year mission after high school then get married. They build their life with their wife by their side. Women are considered ready for marriage after they graduate high school. They get jobs and go to school and serve missions, but a lot of them just do those things while they wait for marriage. This system works well for many people. My husband was 22 when we married and I was 20. In 1998, he came home from his mission in February, met me in March, proposed in April and we married in August. We are still very happy after 25 years of marriage. Of course it varies for each couple, but our situation is fairly typical.
Why did we marry so quickly? Because we were both eager for physical intimacy. In my culture, sex is only shared between two people who are married. It was really hard to wait as long as we did, but we wanted to honor our beliefs so we waited until after our wedding ceremony. Again, this is common in my culture.
I absolutely recommend against living together before marriage. It is so common now days and I think it’s a mistake. If one of my kids goes this route, I will be disappointed, but I’ll just view it as a marriage. To be honest, if my son can get a girl to make any kind of commitment to him, even if they just live together, I’ll be delighted. But I’ve lowered my expectations for my son’s future. He has antisocial personality disorder. He will not be a good companion, but a companion would be good for him. I’ll be grateful for anything that looks like a relationship if he can do it. But my girls? No way! They deserve the best. No compromises. They are good girls and they deserve a real commitment.
So here is my opinion. Men should try to save sex and sexual activities for marriage. They should marry when they meet a nice girl who shares their values. They should try to build a life that will support a family.
Anyway, that is just my contrasting perspective. I appreciate that you shared your thoughts about it.
Marcia says
Lovisa,
Are you a Mormon?
Lovisa says
Yes
Marcia says
Lovisa,
I think doing a mission could be a great experience for a young person.
But from there, the job of a young person, in my opinion, is to quesition what they’be been taught. Got to college. Read some writers and thinkers who challenge how you’ve been raised.
And then figure out how they want to live and who they want to be. How much they want to take from your upbringing and how much they want to discard.
Serial Limerent says
If you have a freer view of sex, then getting married early doesn’t make sense. If you have a more traditional view, then waiting till 30 means you spend your 20s taking a LOT of cold showers! 😉
Lost in Space says
But what if you meet someone great in your early 20s that would be a wonderful spouse for you? Should you break up with them just because you want to wait until you’re older to get married?
I was 22 when I met my wife – I wasn’t necessarily looking for a life-long partner then, but we fell deeply in love and clicked so well and were so compatible that it just wouldn’t have made sense to end it just because we were so young. I’m sure some of my issues now stem from the fact that I never had years to “sow my oats”, but all in all, I wouldn’t go back and change the decision to stick with my SO from age 22 on (btw we didn’t get married until I was 26, but we were living together from a few months after we met and were basically living as a married couple from the time I was 23 and she was 21).
Nisor says
Limerent Emeritus,
Congratulations for correctly handling your marriage.
You were in the forces and that training is a plus towards maturity. You did some “ “fishing” before you tied the knot… right? You were mature enough to make the commitment. Not all men give themselves the opportunity to “fool around “ a while before marriage. And not all men mature early enough for a commitment. They don’t realize this is mainly a lifelong issue, then they feel somehow trapped, not accomplished. The important thing is not to have big regrets later on .
Have a pleasant and fruitful week.
Nisor says
Hi Lost in Space,
I’m so glad you’re posting again! Please stay, we need your sensitive views in all this.
There’s not such a thing as a “Standard “ for any type of living or when to get married , have or not have children , divorce or not, etc etc. Each individual is unique and have his/her own self to consult with. There is no right solution on sight to the problems of divorce and the yearning for another partner at midlife. The problem being that many, many people live a frustrated and trapped life on account of being married. They don’t know how to reconcile this phenomenon. We, as a society, cannot deny that there’s a problem at mid age and it’s huge. The bigger problem is not being married, it’s being married and with children! What to do with the children when a couple don’t feel fit anymore to stay together? Do you follow your heart or stay sultry for the rest of your life? Sacrifice the rest of your life? Some will make the sacrifice, and live a more or less complacent life, others will take the leap and follow theirs hearts , divorce and live a “happy, freer “ life. Others will just take a mistress, (the most common action in all societies). And others may open their marriage. Pick and choose…One needs to ask both parties, make a research on that issues after the years have passed to have proofs if their decisions were valid… if it was worthy. My point of view is still, giving yourself time in your youth to enjoy it to the maximum and settle down later on. What’s the rush ? I was always afraid of the responsibilities and burdens of marriage. I saw it as heavy stuff. I saw too many failures and hurt and regrets to keep me thinking and keeping me away from it. I was not ready for it yet. I married when I was ready for the responsibility . Is that cold thinking? I don’t know but I’m sure it would have been a failure “for me” if I married earlier, felt not mature enough for the job. Other women/men mature sooner, some don’t, or like their freedoms better…
Open debate…
Nisor says
Long time we don’t hear from Call me Cordelia, also Sammy. Are you guys ok? We miss you and would like to hear from you or at least say Hello, we’re fine. Hope all is well with you both. Sending best wishes and love ❤️
Sammy says
“Long time we don’t hear from Call me Cordelia, also Sammy. Are you guys ok? We miss you and would like to hear from you or at least say Hello, we’re fine. Hope all is well with you both. Sending best wishes and love ❤️”
@Nisor.
Thank you for asking after me. I am well. Taking some time out from LwL to process information already in my head. It is both a blessing and a curse to have a brain that apparently never takes a break. 😉
Here’s my latest big self-discovery: I took the Myers-Briggs personality test again and came out very strongly as an INFJ!! (Turbulent subtype). Imagine my embarrassment! I’m in total shock. To actually have something in common with other posters! Oh gosh, I’m not sure I can handle being around so many people with similarly-wired brains. There goes my favourite delusion in life of being too special/sensitive to be understood fully by others. 🤣
I always thought I was an INTJ, and I was very proud of the fact I was an INTJ. A cool, calm, rational scientist-type of person. But it seems that maybe I was wrong. Or maybe the pieces of my adult personality are just coming together a bit late? Perhaps I’ve just never been able to “see myself” as i really am, because other people and society weren’t an accurate mirror. Oh, and I’ve always been quite private too. Private people are hard to read/mirror accurately. 🤔
The INFJ result makes a lot of sense, though. It would explain my idealism. It would explain why I have so many contradictions and appear “all over the map”. It would explain why I’m emotionally intense at times in a way that might come across as “too much” for other people. It would explain why people (both males and females) think I’m attracted to them when I’m not – I’m just being intense in an INFJ way, not in a romantic way. It would explain the dry wit. It would explain the strange air of detachment. All classic INFJ traits…
The INFJ result also explains other things about me. It explains why I can be very playful and even a bit naughty, and yet at the same time still care deeply about morality. It would explain, for exmaple, why Dr. L’s overall vision of purposeful living doesn’t seem at all alien to me, even if I’m not very good at applying particular lessons…
I used to think that females appreciate INFJ qualities and males don’t. But I was wrong about that, too. I’ve discovered that everyone, regardless of sex, seems to like my INFJ-ness when I chose to show it, as long as I remember to rein in the intensity. So I don’t know why I’ve always felt like my authentic personality wasn’t the right one, and I needed to adopt some other personality type in order to fit in. Like I wasn’t “doing human” the correct way… 🙄😇
Nisor says
Oh Sammy, I m so glad you’re fine and all is well. Yeah, one needs those absences once in awhile to recharge the brain. Hope you’re refreshed and like brand new!
I don’t pay too much attention to those personality tests because I’m different people under different circumstances, and I’m not exactly the same person of so many years ago. But remain mainly the same old me…sad, happy, worried, calm , careless or overdoing things. etc . But I have some principles I don’t feel good trespassing. I don’t try to place me in any particular box, I need to expand sometimes, others I shrink, won’t fit comfortable in any one box. Free as a bird 🦅!
You be yourself, whatever that is that you’re, and have discovered you’re , and don’t compare to no one else, because you’re a very special, gifted, emotional, kind and lovely person. I love your sarcasm at times and your deep thoughts at others, your bantering and your seriousness, but we always receive something from you. Some people may not understand it but I revel in your musings. So thank you for being there and for being that awesome person you’re. It has nothing to do with gender, it’s the SOUL behind you! I’m glad I have met you.
I’m in a little vacation , up in the mountains for a few days. So I
won’t be texting as much.
A tight squeeze, hmm, hug I mean. Have a great blessed weekend.
Snowpheonix says
Nisor,
I’m largely fit in INFP box and had a hunch last night that Sammy would show up this morning… see what happened⁉️ That’s called “fraternal bond”! 😇 My deep intuition was rarely wrong… just kidding!
Like you, I don’t follow those personality types, we humans change and evolve so much shaped by our ideological environment, particular when you and I have moved between different cultures and value systems. As I said before, I personally switch 3-4 Myers-Briggs types each day, some time a couple of hours.
I actually think changes bring each of us vibrant colors and delicious hues, making us interesting or fun, like a chameleon, an actor( — life is a play!), as long as we do not aim to do others and ourselves harms. Anything fixed or habitual brings maybe stability but boredom, which seems to be the biggest enemy of all times.
I was so molded at “DNA level” by my OCC, and tried so hard to change myself in the West, but I still tend to be the old boring self loaded with outdated habits and cptsd symptoms…. Life is so short, I don’t want to bore myself by fitting in any specific Myers’s-Briggs types. I want to be a laidback, fun chameleon.
Enjoy your getaway for the weekend! I’m trying to get into Thanksgiving mode.
Snowpheonix says
Sammy,
I have a question which I hope you don’t take it as offensive: Do you think that your intensity towards everything has something to do with Asperger, which is related to neuro-wiring in the brain?
I always suspect and tend to agree with the theory that cptsd has changed one’s neuro-wiring in the brain and caused frequent dysregulation by uncountable triggers, which means that I tired to take everything easy, but literally could not because my brain/mind felt flared up and very intense…. Nowadays these symptoms are reduced just by frequent meditations.
Sammy says
“I have a question which I hope you don’t take it as offensive: Do you think that your intensity towards everything has something to do with Asperger, which is related to neuro-wiring in the brain?”
@Snowphoenix.
No, I don’t believe my “intensity” is in any way related to autism. (Does that sound like an intense answer delivered in a suitably intense tone? Do I sound peeved? I’m doing my best to sound peeved. Isn’t “peeved” a glorious word? Peeved, peeved, peeved). 🤣
On a more serious note, I don’t think my intensity is related to autism and I think that’s a very dangerous path to go down, because it’s reductionistic. I.e. if we slap a label on people, then we may be tempted to explain everything we don’t like about that person’s views with the label, and no longer give that person’s views respectful consideration. (You can respectfully consider a person’s views and still reject those views because you have your own views).
We need to be able to separate people from their views, otherwise we imply that certain people aren’t capable of intelligent thought simply they belong to an out-of-favour group or have the wrong traits. I’m totally against the modern idea of cancelling people. I think people’s ideas can have enormous merit to society even if we don’t like said people. We shouldn’t trash excellent ideas just because someone a bit dodgy may have developed those ideas.
When it comes to politics/religion, I don’t identify with any group, but I allow myself to be influenced by many groups, and this sometimes annoys people. I don’t subscribe strictly to Christianity, for example, but I see some value in Christianity. I don’t subscribe strictly to stoicism, but I see some value in stoicism. I don’t subscribe strictly to conservatism, but I see some value in conservatism. I don’t subscribe strictly to liberalism, but I see some value in liberal ideals. I’m not a feminist, but I love hearing what feminists have to say. I’m not on board with the men’s movement, but I wish the men’s movement would occasionally say something sparkling. Basically, I try to take what I see is of value from many different philosophies. I’m eclectic in terms of cultural influences.
Interestingly, I don’t consider myself to be “intense” in the slightest!! I consider myself to be delightfully chilled-out and relaxed. 🤣 However, other people may beg to differ. Other people may have their own perceptions of my personality, and that’s cool. (I’ve never agreed with other people’s perceptions of who I am, because other people’s perceptions always seem to be woefully inadequate and inaccurate. Plus I’m very mercurial). I think something in the way I communicate may come across as intense at times, but much of the time I’m actually trying to be precise.
I think people misinterpret my desire for precision as emotionality, but I see precision and emotionality as two different things. Also, I’m always happy to change my mind/opinions if I get new and improved information on a topic. I can be very adaptable in my thinking. I can change my mind on a dime if I hear a really good argument (maybe I’m a little too flexible in this regard) and people don’t seem to believe that’s possible. But intellectual honesty does require a certain mental elasticity. I tend to see issues simultaneously from many different viewpoints. My ability to see things from many viewpoints make people assume (perhaps correctly) that I don’t have a core self and that I’m inconsistent.
Introverts living in an extrovert world tend to have an image problem. Introverts are generally perceived as these gentle, shy, mellow, bookwormish people who wouldn’t say boo to a mouse. And that characterisation is generally true of me – up to a point. So when an introvert does express a strong opinion or has the odd “moment” of public passion, people are all shocked. Like: “Oh, what’s wrong with him/her? He/she is usually so tame, so quiet, etc, etc.” People tend to underestimate introverts. They assume introverts are a bit dim-witted. They think introverts don’t possess the same drive and energy and complexity that extroverts do. Introverts don’t express all of their personalities all of the time.
There’s a gender bias in how I’m perceived as an individual. Men perceive me as ridiculously laid-back. (Maybe I’m a little shyer about expressing my personality around men? Or maybe men simply project their own laid-back natures onto me? As a gay man, I shouldn’t “click” with straight men at all, but I do. One of my straight male LOs thought I radiated “quiet strength”. Boy, did he read me wrong! I guess I wasn’t acting intense around him at all!) 🙄
As for women – I’ll be honest with you – I seem to have a bit of a conflicted relationship with/ambivalent attitude toward women in general, which I’m still working on. I really, really, really want to like women as people. But there’s repressed anger there as well.
I think some very emotionally-sensitive women are capable of picking up on my anger toward women -anger which I myself am barely conscious of most of the time – and they don’t understand the cause of the anger, and maybe they feel a little bit frightened because of the anger. Where does the anger come from and what does the anger mean? Well, I think the anger is almost never directed at the woman who detects the anger. I think the anger must be anger I still feel toward my well-meaning but highly-controlling mother, anger which I’m working on processing at the moment.
I think it’s women who are most shocked when I supposedly |”act intense” or “say something out of character”. Men, on the other hand, are amused – and just laugh and laugh. I don’t know what that says about the differences between the sexes. I think some women want to believe they really know a man inside-out who they don’t actually know at all, and they’re upset when their ignorance of said man is exposed. Men don’t seem to have this problem, though.
I think men tend to make less assumptions about other people in general. Or maybe men are less invested in relationships overall? I think emotionally- sensitive women need to understand that when a man is upset, he isn’t necessarily upset at her specifically, and it’s okay for both sexes to feel upset sometimes. I think women shouldn’t personalise men’s negative emotions so much, or immediately panic when a man pulls away from a relationship.
If a woman allows a man to pull away because he needs some time to process his emotions or whatnot, he will eventually come back to her. Some women can’t tolerate the smallest amount of separateness between themselves and the man they love, and this suffocates the poor man in question. All men actually need quiet time away from women. Quiet time away from women doesn’t mean the man doesn’t love women in general or love his woman in particular. Too much proximity to women can overwhelm males emotionally – unless they’re extremely thick-skinned extrovert types.
I think a lot of women have a subconscious desire to control the men in their lives, and men pick up on women’s subconscious desire to control and respond with simmering resentment. I think if women could be honest about their desire to control men and if men could be honest about their desire to enjoy a modicum of freedom now and again from women’s control, then men’s anger toward women in intimate relationships would quickly dissipate. Basically, the best way for a woman to “keep a man” is to give that man breathing space. He will thrive when he knows his woman trusts him enough to do the right thing, and he’ll also feel more sexually attracted. 😉
Sammy says
“You be yourself, whatever that is that you’re, and have discovered you’re , and don’t compare to no one else, because you’re a very special, gifted, emotional, kind and lovely person. I love your sarcasm at times and your deep thoughts at others, your bantering and your seriousness, but we always receive something from you.”
@Nisor.
Thank you for your kind words, Nisor. I actually feel guilty sometimes after giving in to my “camp side” because I think, no, I should sober up. I should stop mucking around, making silly jokes, saying absurd things, and just be responsible instead. Being camp is the opposite of being responsible. Being camp is a kind of cop-out. I’m setting a bad example for the masses, and I don’t want to set a bad example. I really want to be a good example for other people.
One of the problems intrinsic to being a gay man, however, is it’s incredibly hard to take ANYTHING in life seriously, because the heterosexual world literally DOES NOT MAKE SENSE to the gay brain. “Does not compute, does not compute, does not compute.”
Everything straight people do with their lives seems crazy and pointless and absurd to me.
I don’t really have the emotional responses that straight men have and I also don’t have the emotional responses that straight women have (except in an extremely exaggerated and quite possibly “hysterical” form, which I’m sure some women find offensive).
On the one hand, I love my fellow human beings so much. On the other hand, I feel like I’m an incompetent human being because I keep seeing the funny side of things that are supposed to be taken seriously. Even when I write poetry, the drama quickly becomes comedy and the comedy dissolves into tragedy. Or the audience mistakes something intended as a tragic masterpiece for comedy. By the end of the piece, I’ve lost faith in my own judgement. 🙄
The strangest thing of all: straight men love camp humour as much as straight women do. Most of the jokes I make (in real life) go over really well with straight men, and I never thought I’d be getting that kind of positive response. I grew up believing straight men are humourless, and not very bright. I don’t know how I feel about being able to make straight men laugh. I’m so used to viewing myself as a sinner/outcast. I can’t cope with the fact I’m not universally despised. My apparent popularity is shocking to me. 😜
Serial Limerent says
Yes, here I am at 50 feeling this LE for someone who’s almost 60 and has a crush on me…yet the idea of spouse-swapping doesn’t appeal even if our religion allowed it. I like being married to someone who’s into anime instead of sports, for example. But I married young, and over time SO and I have changed a lot. Our opinions and philosophies keep getting farther apart and he has a temper. But the religion says, you do it this way and that’s it. Then the midlife LE hits and throws a monkey wrench into everything while also providing euphoria. Meanwhile, my life is fairly comfortable at the moment and I don’t just want to uproot everything. Society at large is figuring out ways to get around this, but inside religions people have to keep doing things the way they were before.
Sammy says
“I’m largely fit in INFP box and had a hunch last night that Sammy would show up this morning… see what happened⁉️ That’s called “fraternal bond”! 😇 My deep intuition was rarely wrong… just kidding!”
@Snowphoenix.
I’ve just had an epiphany, and you’ve helped me have it, my dear!!
I’ve realised that whenever a woman (of any orientation) shows friendliness toward me, my brain automatically misinterprets “friendliness” as “hostility” and reacts accordingly. (I become very cold, distant, standoffish, suspicious, etc, etc). I don’t even think about this reaction – it just happens.
When we had our very unexpected little “falling out” in the coffeehouse a while back, you didn’t do anything wrong. You didn’t say anything wrong. It’s just some awful glitch I have in my brain. I don’t know what causes the glitch. I don’t think the glitch is related to autism. I think it’s a glitch that’s been in my brain since early childhood.
As a very young child, I instinctively loved my father and hated my mother. And yet my love for my father and my disdain for my mother probably had very little to do with how either parent treated me. (Both parents were very kind to me at that point in my life). My brain just arbitrarily decided that “Daddy is awesome and Mummy is horrible”. I don’t know if I had a reverse Oedipus complex, and saw Mummy as a rival for Daddy’s affection. Maybe I was just jealous of my mother’s attractiveness from a very young age, and avoided getting too close to her as a result?
Anyway, now that I’m aware that my brain has this glitch, I can stop assuming that all women who show friendliness toward me are ill-intentioned. 😉
Adam says
To the conversation between MJ, Nisor and Miss Lovisa,
My wife is my one and only. I dated a bit before marriage but didn’t have much luck with it. I didn’t start dating till I was 20, gave up on girls after a few tries and then met my wife at 23 and got married. There may be some truth to Nisor’s comment for me too. Perhaps she represented me doing the right thing and saving myself for marriage and having only been in a monogamous relationship with one woman. Make God happy, my parents happy and be the good Christian boy. In that capacity there was no room for promiscuous behavior, casual sex and flirtatious behavior.
Maybe limerence was me rebelling against all the good Christian boy things I was expected to do. And that’s why I kept as many things a secret until my wife started finding my posts here. There’s a lot of truth to these words of Dr. L’s. It was what I was doing myself.
” It’s easy to kid yourself that you can handle it. In this phase there is an obvious disjoint between the part of you that desperately wants to indulge the highs, and the more cautious, prudent, part of you that knows the truth – that you are playing with fire.”
Nisor says
Lovisa,
I appreciate your input in regards to marriage commitment. But that is a very tiny percentage of the world population, to even consider it as a standard to go by. I’ve always lived in the big metropolis of different countries and never heard of such marriage arrangements. It’s very curious. I know all churches advocate chastity but for girls only, though the rules are very clear in the Bible it’s for both girls and boys. Somehow the church plays a blind eye when it comes to boys…
Girls are not supposed to experiment with sex before marriage… yet that’s not what’s happening for quite a while now.
I for one did have a few sexual encounters before marriage and I don’t regret it or feel shame or guilt about it. It gave me pleasure and the experience to choose and hold unto a long term relationship/marriage that’s over 46 years, and never cared or longed for another man. But I still keep all the other principles taught during my upbringing . Reconciled the old with the new wine… Sorry if you find it shocking but for me and the people and society I have know it’s normal.
Good afternoon ❤️
Nisor says
Lovisa,
Others may be thinking if I never longed or looked to another man after marriage, how come you have an LO?
LO, was my SO for three beautiful years way before I got married to my today SO, (we’re both single). I became limerent for him (now LO) last year when in a dream he came to my “rescue “ and my mind was taken hostage ever since. (Before that I had forgotten about him and never thought of him until that dream). Story in comments on LwL/dreams. He’s not a fantasy, it was a real relationship that didn’t come to fruition, that is : :marriage. When the past comes to revisit… too many beautiful memories come rushing down my
mind! It brings me the most deepest of sorrows. Strict No contact is in place. But to no avail, the intrusive thoughts are always there.
Lovisa says
I appreciate the conversation, Nisor. I still think it’s best to encourage the rising generation to aim for the ideal. I recently ran a 50-mile ultramarathon. I started it with pacing goals. Halfway through, my goals were to finish without injuries before the cutoff. Three quarters of the way through I just hoped to finish before the cutoff, which I did. I think it’s best to aim for a good goal and then give yourself some grace if you fall short.
By the way, my marriage situation is normal where I live. There are a lot of people who approach relationships in a traditional way. I just want people to know that it is still possible and it does work.
I appreciate your perspective very much! Maybe your method is what will work for my son and help him mature. You give me hope.
Nisor says
Lovisa, congratulations on accomplishing your goals in the marathon. You must be awfully tired? Nice warm bath with rose petals and a glass of wine will do the trick to soothe and tone your muscles. Then to bed under a nice warm blanket and SO by your side.
Lovisa says
Thanks Nisor!
Marcia says
I’m with you and the idea if marrying at 35. I can’t imagine making a good pick in my 20s. I’d have picked a nutball. 😀 Women AND men should sow their oats.
Limerent Emeritus says
In college one of profs said the first time you marry for love, the second time for money, and the third time for revenge.
I asked him which marriage he was on.
“Number 2”
Marcia says
Lol. Third time is for companionship.
Nisor says
I’m with you there, Marcia. My LO
was married for the third time, at 63, I don’t think they were having great intimacy at that age… don’t know how old was she. So it’s got to be for companionship. He fooled around too much when young.
Marcia says
They could still marry for love if there’s not a lot of sex going on. But I was thinking of older people who have lost their long term spouses and marry for friendship
Adam says
If I remarried if it would be because I don’t want to die alone with only a bottle in my hand.
Limerent Emeritus says
My prof was probably in his 40s and it was the mid-70s when he said it. His perspective may have been skewed.
Marcia says
But by now he’s married to wife 3. 😀
Nisor says
Limerent Emeritus,
In your 40s , if already married twice, and divorced again, one can go for love the third time around , that’s too young to give up on love… And now you’d have the experience and the money, and still plenty of vigor to make a woman happy intimately and all other aspects. It’s like now you got your diploma or drivers license….
Limerent Emeritus says
Nisor,
I wouldn’t bet on that. Is it possible? Yes. Is it likely? My bet is no.
It depends. Marriages are like breakers. If a breaker trips, you open the breaker box. If you don’t smell smoke or see flames, you reset it and if it doesn’t trip, close the box and have a nice day. If it trips again, there’s a reason and you trouble shoot the fault.
Another saying is something happening once is an occurrence. Twice is a coincidence and three is a pattern. https://despair.com/cdn/shop/products/dysfunctiondemotivator.jpeg?v=1403275986
My parents went a dismal 0-5 in marriages. If apples don’t fall far from trees, that would have made me a bad risk for any woman.
In her great confession, LO #2 said, “…There’s nothing to bind you to me.” I told the EAP counselor that marriage and kids are pretty binding. The EAP counselor came back with “Not for you. [LO #2] knew your history.”
Another odd thing LO #2 said once was “If we had kids and it didn’t work out for us, you’d probably go after custody.” She said that early on in our relationship and it came out of nowhere. I didn’t think we were anywhere near that. My response to LO #2 was, yeah, I’d probably go after custody. If my father could do it, I could do it.
But, everybody’s different.
Song of the Post: “Third Time Lucky (First Time I Was A Fool)” – Foghat (1979)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpAE8m-lDSk
Nisor says
Gee, Limerent Emeritus, you are a genius with lots of discernment. The song matches perfectly! And the quotes, fabulous!
“ Disfunction,
The only consistent feature of all of your dissatisfying relations is you.”
“Something happening once is an occurrence. Twice is a coincidence and three is a pattern.”
(My LO married three times)
When I met LO he was divorced from the first marriage, no children. We loved each other very much. When I walked away from him he told me: “I’ve never before loved another woman more than I have loved you.” . I told him , “ Now it’s too late.” He responded: “I just wanted you to know that.” I hung up the phone and never saw or heard of him again. He’s been married two more times after that. And I wonder a lot, with painful guilt, am I to be blamed for his disfunction? Other times I say to myself, No, maybe that’s his style.
I know of his marriages because I called him last year, after forty nine years of total silence, and we swapped our lives stories. His first question was : “ did you get married? . I called twice. In the first conversation I told him ‘ you’re the love of my life’, to which he replied, ‘ I’m sorry you feel that way’. I was not expecting him to still love me after so many years. So it didn’t affect me.
In the second conversation he told me: “ You were not patient, have you waited a little longer, our lives would’ve been different now, but it was not meant to be, it was fate; maybe God.”
I don’t know what to make out of both those statements and it’s given me a lot of uncertainty and doubts that fuels the limerence and the anguish. I’m certain he loved me when we were together. But I wonder, does he still have a tiny bit of a flicker for me? I know, I know, I’m just a memory, a wave in the large ocean of his mind.
I didn’t reply to him, it got me by surprise. Anyway, he said ‘ he only has good things to say about me, and that he had only good memories of me. We have never talked about the reasons for the break up after three years of being in an exclusive beautiful relationship. I was bored with him doing the same routine all the time, and no progress, though I loved him with all my heart I had to leave him. Never explained to him why I was breaking up neither did he ask, which is weird. He did try to reach me but I didn’t give him any opportunity to make me change my mind. I had decided it had to end. We have never had an argument, some misunderstandings , yes, because he was very jealous without reasons.
I would never have thought of him again had it not been for that dream last year in which he came to “rescue” me. Story on LwL/dreams.
I’m praying to have another dream where all remnants of limerence is taken away from my captured mind.
The memories hurt so much because he was an admirable LO. I
only have good memories of him and regrets for not having an intelligent conversation with him when I broke up with him. And of course that ‘what if’, or the ‘ what could have been’, invades the mind often making me cry with great sorrow. And on top of that the guilt of feeling this way while I have an SO for soooo long! It’s so ridiculous and complicated. I have not talked to LO for a complete year now, though I fight the temptation to call ing him every day.
Sorry for the book. 💪🏽🌹
Limerent Emeritus says
Nisor,
There’s a lot in your post. I see a few things.
“I’ve never before loved another woman more than I have loved you.”
I believe that but that was a long time ago. DrL wrote a blog https://livingwithlimerence.com/why-cant-i-get-over-my-first-love/
Also, that was a long time ago when he said that. At the time, it was probably true. One advantage of being NC for such a long period is that you can write the narrative any way you want it.
“In the second conversation he told me: “ You were not patient, have you waited a little longer, our lives would’ve been different now, but it was not meant to be, it was fate; maybe God.”
That’s only partially true. He can’t possibly know for certain. What is true is that you would have gotten to where you are by a different route. When LO #2 declined my marriage proposal, it set off a chain of events that led me to being in the bar the night I saw my future wife walk across the dance floor. It’s entirely possible that my wife and I could have met under different circumstances but we didn’t. All I can say for certain is that I’m married to my wife because I asked another woman to marry me.
I asked one therapist if she thought that LO #2 and I could have ever had a viable relationship. She said “No.” Even the Tarot card reader LO #2 claimed to have consulted said that she’d “Never seen such chaos in a reading.”
One friend who knew LO #2 when we were dating said that it’s possible that we could have made it work, God can work miracles. My friend said that in this case, He chose not to.
You can’t make much of a straighter line with those three dots.
“And I wonder a lot, with painful guilt, am I to be blamed for his disfunction? Other times I say to myself, No, maybe that’s his style.”
Oh hell, no, you’re not responsible for his dysfunction. People aren’t who they are because of the relationships they have, they have the relationships they have because of who they are. People make that mistake all the time. They reverse cause and effect.
Once I figured that out, a lot about LO #2 began to make sense. I made that statement to LO #4 and later she said that I opened her eyes to what was going on in her relationship. That surprised me since LO #4 is a PsyD and I would have thought that if anybody would have understood that, she would have. But, it was news to her.
“The memories hurt so much because he was an admirable LO. I
only have good memories of him and regrets for not having an intelligent conversation with him when I broke up with him.”
Not surprising. You can carry that sense of unfinished business to the grave. But, at this point, the arc of your respective lives is pretty well set. And, going back to my earlier point, you don’t know if your life would have been better or worse. All you know is that it somehow would have been different.
“And of course that ‘what if’, or the ‘ what could have been’, invades the mind often making me cry with great sorrow.”
It’s OK to mourn.
When my friend the LCSW, told me that I’d never mourned for the end of the relationship with LO #2 and it would probably be a good idea if I did. How could I? I rolled right from the end of that relationship to a new one with my wife. They overlapped for about 6 weeks. My courtship of LO #2 lasted 5 years. My courtship with my wife lasted 5 months.
Most of the time, keeping LO #2 bottled up in my head wasn’t hard. I had a lot of other things to think about. However, that djinni was always trying to get out of the bottle.
I’d take the dog for long walks in the woods, find an isolated spot, and let go. Sometimes, I’d sit in the driveway after I got home from work, put on the right song, and cry until it stopped. When my wife asked my why my eyes were red, I’d lie to her and say “allergies.” It took awhile but over time the crying jags came less frequently, were less intense and didn’t last as long.
The cool thing about LwL is that you can explore all you want for free.
The risk with LwL is that it can open up doors to places that you had no idea you could go.
Speedwagon says
I have sort of a ‘what if’ past love that plays into my current LE. I knew her about 27 years ago and had a short 2 week romance with her followed by a couple years of correspondence and then social media reconnection after that.
The story here is, she was sort of a love at first sight and we fell for each other immediately. She was younger than me, I was 23 and she was 17. We knew each other for about 8 weeks and the last 2 were absolute bliss as we connected physically. The problem…she was in another country and I left to go back to mine.
I never considered her a viable future marriage partner because of age, distance, and also I was in a LE with my ex girlfriend at the time. Fast forward 2 years and I meet my wife and we are on the path to getting engaged. This past girl contacts me and she wants to come visit me. We had kept in touch a bit and she had confessed her on going feelings for me and I mildly reciprocated. But I knew I could not have her visit and also continue dating my wife. I declined her invitation.
Now 25 years later I am still connected to this woman in SM. Last time we talked was 2012. She married, had a kid, and is now divorced. She still has her looks and I often wonder if I made a right choice declining her offer. I feel like I have always loved this woman though I was never LE for her. It would have been a passion filled decision to have her visit but it would have cost me my current wife. My marriage has been really good but I was never passionate for my wife. I think often of that decision and the alternate life and love that might have been.
I have not felt passion like that until my now current LE and I am sure there are emotional connections between the two that are at play.
Speedwagon says
I should say that one of the triggers of my current LE is that my LO started looking at me and smiling at me very similar to how this girl from the past did when we were getting to know each other. I get the same vibes and it crushes me!
Marcia says
Speedwagon,
There was passion because you knew it would be short-lived. You knew there was an expiration date. So feelings are ratcheted up. It’s what happens. No way of knowing how you’d feel long term
Speedwagon says
@ Marcia
I think you are right about the passion. Also, we never spent enough time around each other to know if we were actually compatible. I would not call declining her invite a regret, more like a very strong what if.
Marcia says
Speedwagon,
Yeah I totally get it. I’m just saying that even a good long term partner can’t compete with the heat from an 8 week relationship. It’s not a fair fight.
Nisor says
Limerent Emeritus,
Thanks for reading and answering my post with such detail and wisdom. I really appreciate it.
I’m full aware that discussions at LwL are a genie 🧞♀️ out of the bottle and could bring more “things” to the surface. When and if they occur I’d have to address it formally…
The third day after the dream with LO and having my mind taken “hostage” in its entirety got me so frightened that I thought of telling my SO, so that I can go see a therapist. I knew something was not right… But then, I thought I will definitely disappoint SO and hurt him, for he loves me so , and trusts me so much and I him. So, it’s a no, no to disclosure. Also thought of a friend I could truly trust, rent her services for she’s a psychologist, her husband and her two sons also, but they’re family friends and surely will discuss this situation among themselves, and look at me or SO with another set of lenses… so it’s another avenue closed. I don’t want to lose my friends. I cannot go on my own to a therapist because SO is always with me, besides he holds the pouch strings, if you know what I mean. My health insurance covers for therapy but I don’t drive and SO would find out because he has to drive me to the therapist. Also, I’m an introvert and have difficulties trying to express myself. I tried a therapist back then when I broke up with LO, got nowhere, couldn’t talk . In other words , therapy means SO knowing what’s going on. Thus, no way. Too old, it’s too ridiculous for me! Sounds like so much negativity on my part, but it’s the truth . It’s between me , God and LwL.
I write down my thoughts and go over them often to keep me on check. I have no more tears, ( I think) I have cried a river walking up and down the streets of the city where I live , and alone in my room. Tears, yeah, many tears. The first ten months were like a tragedy has occurred to me! I was totally out of my mind control. Now, I have made plenty of progress. Hallelujah!
I’d always know that LO stole my heart. Can’t deceive myself. Can’t help that…
The feelings, the hurt, the anguish, the fear, the loss, the pretending that all was well with me after the breakup, it was all bottled up until limererence knocked at the door. I was not limerent for SO, I have spent many hours analyzing both relationships, and I come to the conclusion that I will always love LO , but feel safe and secure with SO. I can never hurt SO. Besides I’m at the “winter song” stage of my life. No use to hang on the past, nor the future…just live the present. And May God help!!!
Have a vey peaceful and beautiful month of November.💪🏽
Nisor says
Read this: it’s beautiful, like an ode to LOVE:
“When two souls, which for a longer or a shorter time have sought each other amidst the crowd, at length find each other; when they perceive that they belong to each other, when in short, they comprehend their affinity, then there is established between them, a Union, pure and ardent as themselves, a union begun upon earth in order that it may be completed in heaven. This Union is LOVE, real and perfect love as very few men can adequately conceive, LOVE which is a religion, adoring the being beloved as a divinity, love that loves in devotion and ardor, and for which to make great sacrifices is the purest pleasure.”
Writing by Victor Hugo
I’ve loved like that only once in my life…Lo.
MJ says
Think I am totally done with marriage..
Adam says
I don’t think I could remarry. Especially if I was a widower. Feels like a betrayal. But you probably won’t know what you’d do until you’re in that position. I guess I’d handle the loneliness with a bottle. But our boys are old enough I feel another “mother” would be worse than none at all. And they are the priority over me.
MJ says
My last SO got along great with my Son. So great she almost considered him like a Son. I always felt so good about that. It was my Daughter that she didn’t really gel all that well with. Nothing terrible. She just didn’t come around that much with SO there and didn’t seem interested.
I got along well with her Daughter but we didn’t get too acquainted either as she was almost my Sons age and was always with her bf..
Marcia says
That’s not uncommon. It’s easier to get along with the opposite sex stepparent than the same sex stepparent. In a way, your daughter and SO were competing for your attention in a way your SO and son weren’t.
Adam says
Heh seems like yesterday I was in a different mood about the subject than I am this morning.
Nisor says
Explain yourself, Adam.
Adam says
Uhhh well I am sober this morning and wasn’t last night when I posted the first comment. Apparently sober me and intoxicated me have differing opinions. Sober me is more objective and knows I couldn’t go at it alone. My wife keeps me on the straight and narrow. If something happened to her or our marriage I’d need another woman to put horse blinders on me so I don’t stray. I am my own worst enemy.
Nisor says
Hi Adam,
It troubles and saddens me to hear you say your opinion differs depending if you’re sober or not. That’s not a good sign. That bottle is going to get you into much trouble. If I was near I’d wack you on the head just to wake you up some. Just kidding . But seriously, you have to let go of that”companionship “, it’s not good for you.
Happy Halloween!
MJ says
“I am my own worst enemy.”
I know what you mean, Friend..
Marcia says
Marcia,
“If something happened to her or our marriage I’d need another woman to put horse blinders on me so I don’t stray. ”
I don’t mean to sound snotty, but that’s kind of a big ask. I’d certainly be supportive of a parnter getting sober or staying sober or getting therapy for depression or whatever it was (everbody has something they’re working on), but I can’t keep someone sober. And I wouldn’t want to be put in that position.
Adam says
“That bottle is going to get you into much trouble.”
Nisor
I have long quieted that part of my habit. When I was single it got me into all kinds of trouble. I calmed after meeting my wife. At first I still made it difficult for her because of it. But eventually I realized she loved me and cared for my well being. For over ten years after our second son was born I gave up liquor and slowed way down. Now the alcohol dulls my limerence and makes it easier in the evenings to get through the day. It may not be the healthiest way to deal but it works.
“Sometimes I think its a shame
When I get feelin’ better
When I’m feelin’ no pain”
Oh I gotta post the song link or L.E. will give me grief lol
Sundown — Gordon Lightfoot
https://youtu.be/F6IszsK-h3M?si=tx1vweOi5bzIOvlQ
“I don’t mean to sound snotty, but that’s kind of a big ask.”
Marcia
I was not at all deceptive about my issues when talking to my wife. She knew what and who I was. No more than I didn’t know what I was getting into with her issues. We were both up front about that. As I told Nisor above over the years I got better with it than when I was on my own. I would be the same up front with any other woman I might get involved with if those circumstances came to be. That way she could make a choice for herself, not me making one for her.
I thank you ladies for your concern. I behaved myself last night. Momma must have had went through a migrane sometime yesterday as she slept the evening from when I got home from work until I went to bed myself. I behaved. I played an online game with our youngest for a couple hours. Then made me a sandwich and soup and ate and fell asleep watching a movie in the recliner. Momma was sleeping on the couch in the same room so I wanted to be there by her.
Adam says
“I know what you mean, Friend..”
MJ
It’s a frustrating thing. You know it. But you don’t change it. Even when I was young I did it. Always gave into peer pressure than I got a whipping when I got home for the stupid $hit I did with other kids. I did it when I dated. Just dived right in on the deep end just handing my heart to a woman/girl. Than got my heart broken until I finally realized dating is a game to some. Then the drinking. I have always brought most of the grief I have suffered on myself. Including the ruminations of this damn limerence. Maybe some day I will change.
Marcia says
Marica,
“I would be the same up front with any other woman I might get involved with if those circumstances came to be. ”
It’s not about being upfront. It’s that it’s a lot to ask. For someone to monitor you.
Marcia says
I watched such an arrangement in my mother’s family. Grandparents.
Limerent Emeritus says
“Oh I gotta post the song link or L.E. will give me grief lol”
OK, Adam,
Here’s another one for you…
“I Love You” – Climax Blues Band (1981)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpDjHBoABR4
I bought the album just for this song.
My wife owns this song.
Snowpheonix says
Treat the ghosts of your secret limerence with sweet, sweet candies🍭🍫🍬🍪, they will leave us in peace for at least a year…
Happy Halloween!
Marcia says
Happy Halloween!
Nisor says
I got me a beautiful black lantern decorated with a spider 🕷️ and spiderwebs all around it, and placed it on top of an orange tablecloth and some black lace for mystery…
I don’t think it’s a black widow spider, the ones that devour their mate after mating! Once in a while I trick-or-treat SO and scare him out.
Happy Halloween.
Snowpheonix says
I pushed to trick-or-treat with LO earlier — he had to give me his banana, and I him a freshly toasted sesame ball (from H-Mart); all colleague-friendly, no sweaty palms or fast heart beats… some female colleagues are wearing costumes teaching today…
I wore a well-made, thick-velvet Renaissance cape (from a reenactment costume shop), pretending to be a “heart-broken damsel”, without tears though 🥺 but 👻
Marcia says
I dressed up for work in a costume. It’ll be the only fun I have all day at work.
MJ says
Got snow falling here tonight. So just a lot of trickin and no treats..
Marcia says
MJ,
“Got snow falling here tonight. So just a lot of trickin and no treats..”
Could be an evening of possibilities. 🙂
MJ says
@Marcia,
Think you might be on to something.. 🤔
Snowphoenix says
I was doing my “exposure therapy” by chitchatting with LO whenever I got a chance, so I could reduce (maybe get over with one day) this sting of pain after each encounter— the colleague-polite distance just hurts… it has been reduced some, but still causing heartaches and regrets deep within.
Good meditation sessions help some but it takes a lot of time and concentration.
Nisor says
Snow,
At least you get to see LO, which gives you pleasure and a reward even if you get the pain later. I get the pain without seen LO, no pleasure, no reward. Today, by chance, I got Tom Jones video with the Song : I will never fall in love again, and it reminded me of LO, he looked a lot like Tom Jones in this video; his gestures and smile, but LO was more handsome and lean, broad shoulders , had big hazel eyes. And he was once mine to enjoy and I let him go… Boy, do I miss LO !!!
Cheer up, you’re not alone, though I’d rather nobody have to suffer from this limerence agony.
Hugs for you❤️
Snowpheonix says
Nisor,
Thank you for your consoling, I’m not in a big pain at all, just a bit melancholy after work. I had very good meditation sessions yesterday and today, so I brought smiles to everyone I encountered today. Emotion is contagious, when one gives, one receives; I was always gratified by giving first.
It is true that I could see LO (his office is 50 meters away from mine) anytime I wish, but unlike you, he was never Mine and is still emotional distanced. At most in my limerent mind, once upon a time, we seemed to be mutually “attracted” colleague-friends, who never even shook hands; however, no one can say that it will never happen. So in this case, 1% Stoic hope has slipped outside of Pandora’s box.
In your situation, you did have intimate relationship with you LO, which is a rewarding memory. While the hope of physically seeing him regularly might be futile , could you cherish that sweet memory of “owning” him once upon a time for 3 years? Could you use that powerful memory as a neurochemical reward?
All experiences pass soon or later, their values exist in what we make out of them in our mind and how we remember them. While everything, particularly an external matter, is impermanent, at least we could try to make an internal affair (memory) as beautiful as we desire them, and last as long as we wish….
I hope you feel better and better….
Damned if I do, Damned if I don't says
When I first fell for LO like a ton of bricks, instinct towards secrecy was automatic. It was both embarrassing (the strength of it and LO is highly inappropriate) and made me feel guilty (I had a boyfriend). Once I broke up with my boyfriend (not because of LO), it is true that I no longer felt guilty. I was still embarrassed, but from two sources: because LO is still inappropriate (this is embarrassment from society at large at such a mismatch); and because of the strength of my feeling (this is embarrassment from LO). I just feel like I would be seen as a little crazy. Also, a lot of water under the bridge between LO and myself – LO thinks we are friends, what would you think if you find out your friend was secretly longing for you and that your friendship was based on a false premise? (but I could not disclose! I was attached at the time.) Secrecy and limerence seem to go hand in hand. I almost wonder if “something that requires secrecy” is a necessary part of the definition – ie. the “barrier”.
Marcia says
I read “secrecy” as secrecy in regards to a partner or SO. The secrets the limerent keeps from a partner. I don’t see secrecy with an LO as bad because the LO is usually on the periphery of the limerent’s life. Or at least not as important as the SO.
But if you’re both single, I don’t see why you can’t disclose. Unless you’re worried it would affect the friendship.
Damned if I do, Damned if I don't says
Interesting. I see many examples in the comments sections of people keeping it a secret from the LO as well.
The friendship is precious. I would hate to lose it. Also big friend group involved.
Marcia says
“Interesting. I see many examples in the comments sections of people keeping it a secret from the LO as well.”
I just can’t take an LO as seriously as an SO. If you keep secrets from an LO who is a co-worker, who cares? I don’t see that there are any bonds being broken. Not in that situation.
Nisor says
If you’re both single, what’s stopping you to disclose? How else is LO to know? At least give the person a hint…
Best wishes.
Nisor says
Snow,
Thank you for your nice words. Hope you feel great today.
I knew how to live without LO before I met him, and I ‘learned’ to live without him after the breakup. It took a real effort with NC after we separated then, and managed to sweep him off my mind for such a long time! I dated others , had a whole life in front of me, was young, beautiful, ha, healthy and at the peak of my career, lots of things to look after, adventures , lots of hopes ! Got married, had a family, grand children, and LO was in the oblivion until last year, when I had that doomed dream. Dammed limererence! I have to win this battle, no other choice. Can’t withstand this for too long without damage to my health and peace of mind. Something is going to give up. I’m trying to create a reconciliatory narrative in my mind that , “I have to be grateful he was even in my life” , that: “Everything good lasts only sufficiently to become unforgettable.” And that this is a beautiful memory, an Oasis in the middle of the dry desert. Maybe I should look at it as a Mirage from now on…And that brings to my memory the song, “ Unforgettable you” from Nat King Cole. I’ll survive this also!
Lots of hugs to give you strength ❤️
Snowpheonix says
@Nisor,
“I have to be grateful he was even in my life” , that: “Everything good lasts only sufficiently to become unforgettable.”
Perhaps this could be your daily motto for now on? I’ll try to remember your words here. Despite all the illusions and misleading on in my LE, I am still grateful that with this external infuser, LO and then the internal Phantom, I’m becoming more aware, maturer, and stronger
“And that this is a beautiful memory, an Oasis in the middle of the dry desert. Maybe I should look at it as a Mirage from now on“
It happened in your life, not anyone else’s! In the time line, everything happened and stored in the memory is kind of like “mirage”, and many of which make up our identity… Cherish the sweetness you’ve tasted in them, no matter how short or long!
I had a bad dream about the irreversible colder LO last night and woke up with more intense sadness…. My unconscious must have thought that I haven’t suffered enough…
Nisor says
Snow,
I’m sorry to hear you often have bad dreams with your LO. And they bring you sadness, of course they would! No good. How do you reconcile your sleep after that? I sometimes have bad dreams but never with LO, if it’s nightmarish it will ruin my sleep for a bit. I’ll get up and pray until I relax again. It’s enough with the intrusive thoughts!
My goodness, that’s all I needed !
I heard, in a video , a neurologist in Stanford University, California, USA, that they put the trauma patients in a state of reverie and when they recall the trauma, they put a rotten egg at the patient’s nose, the stink is so effective, when they come back to their senses they forget about the trauma! Cool! I would like that treatment on me!!!
I will try and find out which video, and who was the scientist, and let you know if I can find it. Maybe I didn’t hear it well?
I find that very strange… a rotten egg??? Well, anything will do just to get rid of mental pain.
You have a magnificent month of November and sweet dreams. Hugs❤️
Snowphoenix says
@Nisor,
“How do you reconcile your sleep after that? “
Upon waking up from sad or fearful dreams, I usually stayed with it, indulged in it, and tried to remember details even when my body/cells was shaky. The task was not running away from it but figuring out what my Unconscious was trying to tell me through those terrible or fantastic dreams. They almost always compensated or went against my conscious mind — hopes, shiny fantasies, negative or depressive thoughts; eg. Yesterday I told you there was 1% “hope/known”, then my dream of last night told me a dire consequence if this 1% of hope was actualized — I would be horribly abandoned emotionally and physically.
Nowadays, I’d “stare at/ruminate” my fear or sadness for at least half an hour or so (or longer if time allowed), until the feeling got dulled and dissipated on its own — when you stare at fear, it backs up literally!
Then, I’ll do my meditation (half awake) to calm down my nerves/cells.
This morning, my sadness encompassed me so tight that I listened to a sad lyric repeatedly for over 100 times (so as to console my sadness.) , while working on muscle strengthening. The stuck Qi began to move within 15 minutes, so sadness is naturally reduced; after 45 minutes, the sadness was gone mostly. Then another half an hour of cardio workout brought in energy, peace, and uplifted spirit.
As I have stressed repeatedly, physical workout is the first tool and defense to battle against any negative emotions and thoughts; mental or spiritual work alone is just NOT enough. Along with meditation, I spent over 3 hours everyday to uplifte my spirit and psychophysiological state w/o nightmare, w/o any change in my reality.
Here is the lyric (in English translation) that hypnotized me, which reminded me what you said yesterday about memory you had about your LO —
The wind has blown through you
I loved.
I can’t hide my thoughts
I can’t hide my happiness.
Happiness is like sand in a palm
Whether it’s loose or tight
It will slip through your fingers
Slip through the fingers
The rain drifted by when I was drunk
I suffered.
The fire that use to burn
Went out bit by bit
Memories are like a movie
No matter how exciting
It’s doomed to end
Destined for this loneliness
Love songs from my OCC are often too sentimental… but soothing for a sad soul…
Nisor says
Snow,
I love music, not so
much the modern one, unless the lyrics are meaningful, have a message to comunícate. But now, during limerence s$&#, I try to stay away from songs that make me sad. I
purposefully avoid it. I rather listen and watch classical music. I love the fast and happy ones like “ Bolero” from Ravel, it makes me waltz to its strident tones. Then there’s “Un bel di” that makes me very sentimental as I remember the story behind it. But the sound of it elevates me to other levels of ecstasy! There’s a music channel called “Stingray CLASSICA”, I watch it all the time, (we have it here on TV 24 hours!) (many repetitions though) enjoy very much the musicians playing their instruments 🎸 and living the music as they play it with so much passion, enthusiasm and reverence; feel they’re transported to the ninth cloud!
Have a nice evening wherever you’re. It’s six o clock here and dark already. The streets already decorated with beautiful light decorations for Christmas 🎄! It’s looks magic!❤️
Julia says
The house in the picture reminds me of a song I wrote before I even knew that limerence was a thing.
“Take away just one component
Of my shiny house of cards
It’s in my mind, it’s out of love
Now watch it collapse and break apart”
Juleah – Love Psychosis