I’ve been away this week on work business, but managed to find some time between meetings to discover a lovely old-fashioned coffeehouse with oak-panelled walls, chrome fixtures and fittings, a well-stocked bookcase, and a decent Americano.
As I sat there enjoying my caffeine hit, it occurred to me that it’s been a while since we tackled a meaty problem in the LwL virtual coffeehouse. As I sipped, and felt the satisfaction of a craving sated, the perfect topic came to mind: temptation.
Coffee is a fairly mild and minimally disruptive addiction, but the same cannot be said for limerence. In that altered state of mind, desire for the limerent object is so powerful it dominates thought and inflames the body. You feel helpless in the face of overwhelming temptation.
Despite this, the will and conscience remain intact. It is possible to resist temptation. I managed it, and one of the tricks that helped me was to immerse myself in anti-temptation.
The fundamental problem with temptation is that your brain is pushing you to seek reward with an overwhelming urgency. Often, it is a combination of powerful forces – euphoria, libido, emotional yearning – that adds up to a comprehensive hunger for the source of temptation. Those are powerful forces to resist, but there are other drives that can be exploited to counteract them. Principally, fear and shame.
It was an unpleasant experience, but I sought out stories of affairs going wrong. I’ve blogged before about the power of negative daydreaming for deprogramming, but I also read stories on affair recovery sites and books on infidelity that laid out the devastating consequences of cheating. Wrecked families. Devastated children. Destroyed lives.
That helped shift my mind towards seeing the temptation as a false reward – a tainted prize. Like a Faustian pact or the song of a siren, I adjusted my attitude to the craving as an unhealthy and destructive urge to resist, rather than the gateway to bliss.
Now that I look back on this, there are two further lessons I’ve learned. First, it can be emotionally painful in the short term, just like finally getting into the gym after a period of laziness leaves you sore and demoralised, but it builds long term mental strength. Second, it ironically only seems to work for me with big temptations.
I’ve had a lot less success with trying to use this method for other unhealthy habits. For example, I have a tendency to give in to Youtube temptation, and spend too long passively absorbing entertainment (and politics) when I could be doing something more productive. The aversive power of imagining the negative consequences of this overindulgence (not achieving my dreams, getting stuck in zombie mode, missing out on quality time with others) makes me feel bad, but it doesn’t seem to have the leverage that the limerence-catastrophising had. I assume because the stakes seem much lower – and certainly less immediate.
So, that’s the topic for today’s coffeehouse hangout. What methods have other people used to resist temptation? How have you managed destructive desires?
Fill the comments with wisdom!
Great idea Dr L! Like you, I immersed myself in stories about the aftermath of an affair. I wanted to understand how an affair affects the betrayed spouse and family. Affairs are destructive and devastating. I used that knowledge to motivate myself to not only avoid escalating my relationship with LO, but also to work on strengthening my marriage and family. I had to channel all that extra energy that my LE generated, why not invest it in my family?
I also learned the stages of an affair and the definition of an EA. I used that knowledge to check in with myself. I have to be honest, the thought of meeting up with my LO to talk is tempting, but secret meetups are a stage of affairs so I’ve avoided doing that. Every encounter I’ve had with an LO had a purpose and my SO knew about it.
I used skills that I learned from the men at LwL. I listened to what triggered them and I tried to avoid triggering my LOs. For example, Speedwagon pointed out that flirting is best kept between married people. I cut back on my LO flirting after talking to Speedwagon about it. Adam gave me some great tips about how to strengthen my marriage. I’m holding my husband’s hand more frequently in public and being more open about subjects that I would have kept to myself before talking to Adam. He told me that if his wife was wrestling with something, he hoped she would feel comfortable talking about it with him. That stood out to me and I got brave enough to talk to my husband about some difficult topics. Those are just two examples, I have learned a lot from many people in the LwL community.
I AVOID contact with LO when I feel weak. My LOs reciprocated attraction. We are descent people who meant our vows, but we still have human weakness. It’s best to avoid temptation when you know you’re feeling weak.
This community keeps me grounded. The men are especially helpful to me because I learn what triggers their emotions. I’ve learned there are differences in what triggers me vs what triggers the men. I’m trying to be aware of my actions and not do things that could trigger attraction in men. The women at LwL have wisdom to share from their personal experiences, too. And the women are always great to offer comfort when it’s needed.
I found other ways to get my dopamine hits. I run and I think about running to distract myself from thinking about LO. I seriously love running! If you haven’t tried it, please do.
I guess we are all wired differently.
Shame, fear, “should”, “ought to”… these have never worked for me as a motivational tool or temptation resistance method. If anything I find negativity and catastrophising flips a switch inside me that mentally immunises me and makes me feel defiant… negative consequences become easy to ignore, or write-off as overly risk averse and/or sensationalist.
My go-to method is to frequently remind myself of what I really want and to deliberately enrich that vision in my mind in full technicolour. When temptation arises it then becomes more natural to ask myself whether indulging in that temptation moves me towards my vision or away from it.
That worked for me when I quit smoking after a 25 year addiction. And currently I am slim and fit but not naturally so, I would far prefer to lounge around with loved ones, stuffing myself with too much rich, delicious food and drink. I have to work on myself mentally to build and maintain the motivation to resist the never ending food temptations, and choose a gym workout over sunning myself in the garden.
Maybe that is why my limerence is so long lived… I have struggled to engage wholeheartedly with any vision of a life that excludes LO. Not easy but maybe something to work on.
“Shame, fear, “should”, “ought to”… these have never worked for me as a motivational tool or temptation resistance method. If anything I find negativity and catastrophising flips a switch inside me that mentally immunises me and makes me feel defiant… negative consequences become easy to ignore, or write-off as overly risk averse and/or sensationalist.
My go-to method is to frequently remind myself of what I really want and to deliberately enrich that vision in my mind in full technicolour. When temptation arises it then becomes more natural to ask myself whether indulging in that temptation moves me towards my vision or away from it.”
@Allie.
So you’re motivated by positively-framed-and-worded goals rather than thou-shall-nots?
What are the triggers that cause men to reciprocate? I have a limerent crush on someone at work. I want to tone it down on my end.
You stare back for long periods, maybe smile, say hi, notice him. Shouldn’t take much, if you think/know he’s into you too.
But if you’re trying to tone it down, ignore him for awhile.
Jen
The thing is though, like with LO, it’s not technically anything ya’ll ladies do unless it is completely intentionally drawing a limerent out. But by asking this question it means that you aren’t doing anything to draw his attention. LO was an amazingly nice and kind woman. To everyone. But my limerent brain said “she’s nice to ME”. Unless an LO is aware and manipulative everyday parts of a person’s personality can glimmer and make the limerent think there is something more there than there actually is.
At the same time over correcting your behavior in an attempt to “cool off” with LO can be a bit cruel to them. If you already have a good work relationship with him (I did with LO too, she was a former co-worker) and the they are unaware of what is going on in your head, you could ruin what you already have. It can be just as damaging as the limerence itself. I lost LO when she moved on to another job. And I spend a lot of time over thinking my past behavior wondering if it had anything to do with why LO left the job.
That all said I can tell you what behaviors LO had that hooked me. Again keeping in mind she wasn’t aware of what was going on in my head and they were all innocent behaviors.
–Confiding. LO had just been through a divorce when I met her. She would often ask for a listening ear as her ex was still trying to interfere in her life and make her miserable.
–Compliments. A simple “thank you” for doing something for her was fine. But a “thank you Adam you are so sweet” sent me into a tailspin.
–Physical touch. While this never happened (thank god) if it did I can guarantee it would have killed me. I shook her hand the first time I met her in person and that was fine. That’s a habit of mine, meeting someone for the first time, male or female. Anything else …..
–Chivalry. This is a personal weakness. Yeah I know it’s the 21st century and all that. But LO letting me open doors for her, carry heavy stuff, walk her to her truck in the rain with an umbrella, intervene with rude male customers, etc. That is the last nail in the coffin for me. I still walk my wife out to the car with an umbrella when it’s raining. In fact I just did it last night. She doesn’t “need” me to but she does let me do it. LO tolerated it from me lol. She was a very independent woman, but she knew I liked to do those things for her so she let me. While she thought it was just her being nice, to my limerent brain it was so much more.
Again all these things aren’t something LO did to manipulate me (and least I hope not) she was just a sweet kind young lady. Maybe she noticed some old man at work had a crush on her but I don’t think she did anything intentionally to exasperate it. You have to remember in the limerent mind there are a thousand things banging around back and forth that aren’t really in reality. So it could be the most innocent and innocuous trait of yours that might grab his attention. Most LO’s are completely unaware of the severity of the limerent. “Oh someone has a crush on me.” But that’s probably the extent to it in their minds.
And welcome Jen. Hopefully you will free to post more. We all have different stories but limerence for a co-worker is a very common thing here for a lot of us limerents.
Short answer: anything that gives them the idea you like them. Long answer: depends on the man what that is. Being nice to them. Remembering details about them. Looking them in the eye and smiling. Texting them. Being kind, thoughtful and friendly.
(I want to point out none of these is something a well-socialized person does not do as a matter of course. If the guy likes or is attracted to you he will make a big deal of it. If he doesn’t like you he won’t think too much of it. But doing MORE of it when he does like you is adding tinder to the fire. Doing way MORE than us socially acceptable as neutral – ie. prolonging gaze while doing things like licking your lips, or texting someone several times a day rather, will probably make them wonder a lot about you.)
Without becoming totally anti-social and an unpleasant human being, these are things that worked for me (I was the limerent one):
– deliberately adopting more masculine rather than feminine body language around LO: eg. walking decisively, smiling but not too long and lingeringly, playing it a little cool even a little challenging, walking parallel to them rather than facing and open.
– refuse help and show how capable you are and that you don’t need them.
– never confide personal matters (ffs this is totally basic, and I think the biggest trigger for work place romances. So many men esp have this in-built savior complex this will trigger it big time. Do not over share – or in fact share AT ALL – if you want to prevent slippage into EAs; plus it is harder to text about surface matters that much unless you are the bantering sort.)
– don’t touch. Most well-brought up guys won’t without invitation.
– mentioning other people you are seeing a lot; have a SO? Children? Talk about them all the time. Have tons of friends of the opposite sex? Indicate LO is not special but one of the crowd. Notice someone attractive? Say so (even though the truth is to you no one holds a candle to LO). Basically show you are unambiguously not available situationally – all your intimate friendship slots and even crush slots are filled already.
– talk about plans and a future that does not involve them. So they don’t imagine any possible future with you.
– if you are friendly, don’t let them think they are special. Made them chocolate chip cookies? Let them know you have given them to other friends and co-workers too.
– show less interest: do not probe about their childhood, ask for details about their work, try to figure out their psychology.
– emphasize your incompatibilities eg. if there is an age difference, play it up.
– make comments like you see them as a brother, a child, a father (depending on age).
– without being extreme in ghosting, do the bare minimum; reply to texts monosyllabically and occasionally not at all; do not initiate contact (based on what I read here this might make limerence worse, or it could make them realize you really are not interested) and don’t invite further conversation with open ended questions. Do not send cute things that remind you of them, memes whatever (unless you get the vide they hate them, then be annoying and send more.)
– don’t laugh at their jokes.
– turn down invitations to hang out.
The list goes on. Really, there are many opportunities to show how we DON’T care for someone. It is hard to act counter to your true feelings especially if in the earliest stages of limerence and your LO will be able to sense the contradiction and conflict in you, and you may not be consistent. But adopt this as a consistent practice and you will get there eventually even if in a situation where you cannot go NC. I have to admit even with all this it took a whole year for me to stop being limerent, and for me to get the vibe he was over me as well.
Contradictory, confusing, uncertain… sounds like the perfect recipe for inciting limerence in another 🙂
I appreciate what you are trying to do here, but adopting lots of deliberate false behaviours to cover up ones real feelings – I would find this very stressful to keep up and many people are sensitive enough to pick up on the contradictions and find that very unsettling, or if they are vulnerable, even mentally harmful. Our LOs do not deserve this sort of treatment.
Being authentic and honest yet careful and guarded (and not flirty like SW LO!) is enough I think.
I should add that my view arises from personal experience as I suspect my LO has adopted some of these sorts of practices and they only serve to create uncertainty, thus prolong my limerence and cause me much misery in the process. 3.5 years later, I am still in LE but I am become an expert hider so no-one would see it on the surface including LO. Not sure where he is becuase he confuses me so much.
Please find another way people.
I appreciate the perspective. In my view everything I have listed basically IS an alternative to flirty behavior. You could add hiding to the list, but it basically is ALL hiding. The problem really is that there ARE contradictory feelings. That will be picked up on. The only true authentic path is to declare to both LO and SO simultaneously and deal with the fall out in real time. I actually know one person who has done that, but I doubt most people have the courage to do so (myself included). That person is now with their LO and remains friends with their SO, but it is messy and painful and ecstatic all at once. No children involved.
After reflecting on what you’ve said, and thinking of how limerents seem to pick up on ANY behavior whether flirty or not, I think the only way to prevent the other party from confusion is to go NC. It takes so little fodder to inflame the limerent imagination. Probably just breathing is sufficient to create uncertainty in the other. Because ultimately we would rather be confused and uncertain rather than let go of the fantasy of LO (which serves some purpose for us psychologically, whatever that might be).
I 100% agree with Allie. It’s rarely ever LO’s fault. Short of “get the hell away from me” everything LO did stimulated my limerence. It’s not LO’s fault my mind created a fantasy world around her. She does not deserve to be treated coldly or negatively because of my limerence. Most LO’s are not at fault for our limerence. We are. We have to take responsibility for that. Both with LO and SO, if there is one. Limerence is drunken behavior and neither are an excuse for bad behavior or putting the blame on someone else. As a functioning alcoholic limerent I would know. We need to own our behavior. If I ever got to see LO again the first thing I’d say to her is “I’m sorry”.
Yup agree, NC is the best way to go, should it be a feasible option.
And that is a good point.. whatever we do, we will put across a rather confusing vibe to our LOs.
I think it sucks to be an LO! (if they are of the non-narcissistic variety of course)
Yes, I know … and then if you do NC, people think you are ghosting them, and find it so hurtful. This is such a tough situation really, limerence. Hard for the limerent, or the LO, or the SO to come out of it unscathed. And here we all are trying to minimize pain for all involved. A for effort at least.
Been there…
After reading the comment, I feel like my LO followed this guide lol. He is doing everything you mentioned.
My LO sucked me in with 3 things. She was not even on my radar until I started catching this vibe from her and these 3 things contributed to that vibe of attraction. She also did these things to an extent my other female employees did not, even though they interact with me about the same amount.
1…prolonged eye contact or eye gazing. No one else looks at me like my LO does. Sometimes the eye gazing was so pronounced I felt weird about it.
2…she would stand or sit closer to me than anyone else when collaborating on work. She would have very close proximity to me.
3…being playful with me in conversation. She is a witty person and she would playfully tease or banter with me. Gave me a feeling of comfortability.
All this contributed to a strong vibe of attraction. But…when I disclosed she only claimed friendship. Maybe, maybe not? She still acts this way.
Don’t forget about the devil’s tool…texting. Muhahahaha.
She could be a practiced flirt who enjoys attention. She could do all of what you wrote with other men. Idk. She could enjoy parts of the game with no intention of doing any more than she’s doing.
But you have an answer. She gave you an anwer. And for an LO, she was unusually clear.
What motivates me is I never want my wife to regret or question taking a chance on me.
No one has ever loved me more, wanted me more, and stood by my like she has. She was the first woman to ever sacrifice something for me and didn’t take off on me.
When she had decision that would drive us apart or bring us together, she always chose the one that brought us together.
When it looked like we weren’t going to make it, she did what she had to do. I told her that as long as she fought for herself, I’d fight alongside her.
I don’t want to ruin that.
This is so touching and emotional. I envy you, L.E.
Yes, it really is the best reason possible.
Bravo 👏
Songs of the Thread:
“After the Loving” – Engelbert Humperdinck (1976)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUK1n-Ut-DE
“Thanks for taking me
On a one way trip to the sun
And thanks for turning me into a someone”
“A Little Bit More” – Dr. Hook (1976)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPc7CBuH_dc
I saw Dr. Hook at Disney World in October, 1979.
Temptation, at least as it relates to my LO, is a tricky question because I first have to determine and understand what my temptations actually are. For me they are not so apparent because they are all internal meaning, my LO is not actively tempting me, I am tempting myself with her. I don’t have any really big temptations, they are all fairly bland and can range from manufacturing some alone time during work hours with LO, personal talk with LO, texting LO, and even just ruminating on LO. All of these seem fairly innocuous but can have wider ranging consequences for me that keep me in a higher state of LE. Some of you here on LwL deal with far more difficult and enticing temptations with LOs who might actually pursue you.
For me, resisting temptation has a lot to do with 1. Not wanting to emotionally harm myself , and 2. Not wanting to emotionally harm my SO. If I give in to temptation with LO, I have enough pattern of negative outcome to know I should resist next go around. I wish I knew these things more academically so I could avoid them to begin with without having to experience negative outcome first, but academic knowledge has not seemed to be a deterrent with LO. Understanding the devastation of affairs seems foreign to me. But also, I am not being tempted with an affair either so all that just seems unreal and fantasy to me. What is real is if I do X towards LO I feel Y. If Y feels bad, then resist doing X.
If my LO were pursuing me more and externally tempting me I might have greater insight on this. But right now, it is all a inner struggle about my own actions.
“Fear and shame.”
Maybe shame. But fear can actually get people riled up. It’s why people love amusement parks or horror movies. There’s a line between being afraid and being turned on.
I think I was a bit afraid of my LO, like getting too close to the sun. But I wanted to get close to it. It almost became a challenge to get close to it. 🙂
“But fear can actually get people riled up. It’s why people love amusement parks or horror movies. There’s a line between being afraid and being turned on.
I think I was a bit afraid of my LO, like getting too close to the sun. But I wanted to get close to it. It almost became a challenge to get close to it. 🙂”
@Marcia.
A jolt of aliveness maybe? Did your LO “scare you” and also “make you feel alive”? Or was it the challenge of trying to get close to him that enlivened you? 🙂
Sammy,
“A jolt of aliveness maybe? Did your LO “scare you” and also “make you feel alive”? Or was it the challenge of trying to get close to him that enlivened you? 🙂”
Yes, to all the questions! But I don’t know that I was trying to get close to him in the traditional sense so much as I was trying to land him. 🙂 It became a project … I am going to get over my nervousness and talk to him! But I dug the nervousness. If I don’t feel nervous, I’m not attracted. I’ve never looked for comfort. Maybe that’s a bad choice?
“…I don’t know that I was trying to get close to him in the traditional sense so much as I was trying to land him. 🙂 It became a project … I am going to get over my nervousness and talk to him! But I dug the nervousness. If I don’t feel nervous, I’m not attracted. I’ve never looked for comfort. Maybe that’s a bad choice?”
@Marcia.
Yes, I can definitely relate to all of this. It’s kind of spooky how closely my own limerence experiences echo yours … unless limerence just unfolds in similar ways for all people all around the world, and things like culture and biological sex don’t matter much.
You say you weren’t trying to get close to him in the traditional way, and I get what you mean. I think that’s the “game element” of limerence. We’re almost playing a game with LO (can I attract his/her attention today?) and hope they’re playing the same game with us (will they give me attention in response to my bid for attention? Or, better yet, will they try to get my attention independent of any effort on my part, thus proving attraction?) 😉
I once said hello to my LO outside of Maths class. He said “Hey” back in a voice that sounded totally bored and disinterested. Nonetheless, my heart almost burst out of my chest it was beating so fast with excitement. I had GOTTEN A RESPONSE out of him! (Never mind the response was the flattest and least creative response any human could ask for. It was from him! It felt significant! Hahaha!)
Maybe we kind of get a kick out of our own nervous energy? We want more of that nervous energy. That nervous energy feels rewarding when really it’s just anxiety in fancy packaging.
This is why I wonder whether limerents really value their LOs or whether limerents value the chase? Is the chase more important than the ostensible object of the chase? Is it the chase that makes us feel high, and not the actual person?
Sammy,
“I once said hello to my LO outside of Maths class. He said “Hey” back in a voice that sounded totally bored and disinterested. Nonetheless, my heart almost burst out of my chest it was beating so fast with excitement. I had GOTTEN A RESPONSE out of him! (Never mind the response was the flattest and least creative response any human could ask for. It was from him! It felt significant! Hahaha!)”
Idk. Getting a totally flat repsonse would have bothered me. I wanted him to light up when he saw me and zero in on me and not want to talk to or notice anyone else. Like there was no other chick in the world! HA HA HA … I know. A tall order for a straight dude. 🙂
“Maybe we kind of get a kick out of our own nervous energy? We want more of that nervous energy. That nervous energy feels rewarding when really it’s just anxiety in fancy packaging. … This is why I wonder whether limerents really value their LOs or whether limerents value the chase? Is the chase more important than the ostensible object of the chase? Is it the chase that makes us feel high, and not the actual person?”
I didn’t even really know my LO that well. Yes, I loved the chase. It energized me … but constricted me when he wasn’t playing along. But I don’t think it’s the LO we value so much as how they make us feel.
@Marcia.
“Getting a totally flat repsonse would have bothered me. I wanted him to light up when he saw me and zero in on me and not want to talk to or notice anyone else.”
Clearly, my standards are abysmally low. I’ll have to keep that in mind. 😉
“But I don’t think it’s the LO we value so much as how they make us feel.”
Nailed it. Hole in one. 😛
I love this coffeehouse topic. I’m somewhat hedonistic (eat too much, shop too much, and pretty much do whatever I want; I actually lounge around in the garden a lot, funny it came up as an example; and I have zero discipline when it comes to diet and exercise). LO was the biggest temptation in my life ever, and he offered himself on a plate. And I declined over and over, wailing and protesting (to myself) each time. I never thought of it till this coffeehouse discussion, but for someone so self-indulgent, that is unusual. Why didn’t I just indulge?
I actually think it was the thought of my SO. I really could not stomach the thought of betraying him. This has nothing to do with any marriage vows (I am non-religious so I refused to swear most of the standard promises that I saw as trappings of religion); I just couldn’t do it. I think for me to actually do anything, I would have to leave him. My question is: was it about me or about him? If it was about him, I’m noble and selfless; but tbh that is just not me. So it’s about me then. I think it is a very strong part of my self-image that “I don’t betray my loved ones”. If I did, I would not me ME anymore, my frivolous skin notwithstanding. It wasn’t an honesty thing (I hid things I bought online shopping from my spouse), it wasn’t even an anti-infidelity thing (I would have less of an issue if my LO was the married one, though I think it would give me pause). Oh gosh, writing down all this makes me feel quite immoral. But I’m trying to be honest about temptations here. Even any fantasy I had of LO in my head would have to involve my SO not existing. Betraying my SO was not an option, even in the deepest darkest part of my limerence obsession with LO.
Note though it doesn’t mean I am a particularly good wife or anything, I think I am a below average wife actually because of my selfishness and self-indulgence. Again being honest, we are anonymous here on LwL. But my one virtue is that I have sexual fidelity (but perhaps not of the mind).
I think my coping mechanisms for dealing with the discomfort of this self-denial, while trying to still get over the limerence, is right here. As in right here in LwL. I’ve been watching my emotions as I type in the url, as I click in, as I scroll down in anticipation for the recent posts list, as I click in to read what people have written, and decide what strikes me to write a response about. And the writing itself – cathartic. I give this limerence thing a lot of my time and mental headspace as I try to figure it out. Because I can’t just fall into an affair, this acts as a pressure release valve for not doing so. I am in two minds – is this like self-harm where people do things that can help release pressure (the biochemical involved there is endorphins I believe – same as running, in case Lovisa is interested). Or is this a healthy diversion or alternative way to self-soothe? The line isn’t clear to me.
One thing I am newly moving toward is the purposeful life idea. I have to admit I was a little resistant to it at first. Mainly because for someone so self-indulgent, my purposeless life is actually quite comfortable thank you very much. But I realized through limerence that there is extreme power in a vision (even if it is an illicit limerence-addled vision). Allie called it technicolor. It is better than any hit I could get from buying anything online, more long-lasting that the pleasure of a sugary dessert, better than partying with my friends. As someone so driven by pleasure, I am deeply interested in how to imbue my life with more pleasure, and I am thinking of how to get a limerence-like hit from … just life in general. What vision of my life would excite me so much that even limerence pales by comparison? (and it was a good tip from Allie to imbue that with even more technicolor – I need to try that!) I man still brainstorming but the most appealing ideas at so far include a creative endeavor, making tons of money so I can be financially independent, or saving the world. It would be good if I could somehow tie in good diet and exercise into that, but that might be hoping for too much.
Is it endorphins and not dopamine that are released during a runner’s high? I don’t know the difference, but whatever that hormone is, it’s awesome!
“Oh gosh, writing down all this makes me feel quite immoral.”
You and me both Emily. My wife found this place soon after I disclosed to her about my limerence. And when she read me back the things I did for LO, the gift giving, special treatment, I thought how could I do this to my wife? In the moment of the gifts and cards I sent LO I was just like I am just being nice. Was I? Limerence is a bitch and a half. LO seems so exciting that it makes you loose ground with what is real and what is happening in reality. My posts here when I first found this place are a monument to by self indulgence with LO. A place I can always come back to when I think of LO and need to get my head straight. Some of the things I said ……
“And the writing itself – cathartic. ”
I think that’s why I am still here despite on being the better end of this LE. Perhaps it is my motivation to help others that might be in a worse state of limerence. Perhaps it is an excuse to think of LO without yielding to daydreaming and intrusive thoughts? I am helping people with my story not dwelling on LO. Damn limerence.
“And the writing itself – cathartic”
Well said! My psychologist recommended that I get a journal and write a lot to process this experience. I told him that I’d found something way better with this website – I’ve been able to process my experiences and feelings, let off steam, and try to understand myself better through all of the writing I’ve done here, plus I get to receive feedback and support from a group of people who have been there and understand, plus maybe some of the stuff I write can be helpful to other people.
All pluses of being here, Lost In Space! Yes, to all the reasons.
It’s really good that you, Adam, and so many of us here feel that being able to help others with our suffering is worthwhile.
Yesterday and today, I have been battling with just this. I have therefore been very pleased to read today’s blog and the comments. I think the many hours that I have spent reading may mean that some of the tenets of the site have gradually rubbed off on me.
The deep and urgent fluctuation of the feelings of overwhelming temptation have surprised me and it feels as if a real battle is going on in my mind. The temptation for me is to send LO a message after being ghosted by him for the past five months. I drafted a message several months ago without the intention of sending it.
On my country walk today, I found myself ignoring the surroundings and adjusting the message in my head to say that being ghosted is the worst thing you can do to anyone etc. etc. I had in mind suggesting that he scrolled through the WhatsApp messages he sent to me about his feelings, meeting up, staying with him and his SO for weekends and so on. This is despite having read, and re-read the blogs on When Things Go Sour and Being Ghosted.
Just re-reading my last paragraph has reinforced to me what a sticky wicket I am on.
Anyway, I have resisted (even before reading today’s blog) by asking myself exactly what that course of action would achieve. Also I have been imagining the possible discomfort, not only to LO but maybe to his SO, just for my few moments of payback and getting things off my chest. Would I appear vindictive, maybe threatening, when I could simply do nothing and just leave the door ajar? Maybe that little chink causes uncertainty though.
I’m going away to stay with friends next week. The trick will be for me not to bring up the subject of LO or limerence.
Hang in there Frederico. It sounds like you did the right thing. I had several pour-my-heart-out letters written to LO2 before I transferred my limerence and I am so glad that I never sent them. I would write them and save them on my phone for later or leave them in my secret journal. After LO2 and I reconnected as friends, I reread several of those letters and destroyed them. I felt embarrassed that I ever wrote them. The content was stuff that he really didn’t deserve. It wasn’t too bad and our friendship probably could have survived it, but I would have felt embarrassed if he read those letters. I understand that it could be different for you. But it would be wise to really think that through before sending one of those letters.
By the way, I remember you mentioning that your LO called you, “my love” at one point. Oh boy, that would be hard for anyone to get past. No wonder you were waiting for those blue dots to appear in your app.
Hang in there. You are strong! You can beat cancer, you’ll conquer limerence, too.
Oh, my goodness, Lovisa. Such kindness and such a brilliant memory. Thank you for your message. I feel rather self-indulgent but it means a lot to me.
Your recollection of my LO’s last message to me is spot on. Wow. Yes, he did indeed call me “my love”. I should absolutely treasure that memory and not do anything selfish to diminish it for him or for me. I wish that I had your power of recall. Yes, the grey ticks, blue ticks, thing can be quite a curse. You think that your LO is simply playing games but probably they are not.
Oh, the cancer too. Thanks, Yes, that’s been a nuisance lately because of the hormone injections. It should all be absolutely fine in a few months time and I am so lucky. The reality check, as we touched on before, is that it’s not really a good look to try to rely on your younger, possibly naive, LO because you are besotted! You’ve made me smile, Louisa. I liked your other post too.
I’m feeling a tad guilty because I think we were supposed to be coming up with lots of wisdom today. I have a feeling, though, that there is quite a lot of wisdom in today’s comments overall.
I’m glad my comments were helpful, Frederico.
Of course you feel a tad bit guilty. You like to keep the comments on topic to preserve and respect each article. I like and appreciate that about you, but I actually learn more from the community than the articles. Though I do learn a lot from the articles. It’s like the difference between learning from proverbs vs a parable, both are good, but I’m better at retaining the lesson if it came from a story. I hope that makes sense.
Indulge away, I think Dr L doesn’t mind that we’ve turned the comments section into a support group, lol. Hopefully he doesn’t mind because I am very guilty of that.
Frederico, I don’t know if this helps or will make things worse but … there is a way to disable blue ticks from showing. I have it turned off myself so even if I look at a message, it remains grey ticks.
Lovisa is amazing. It’s like we are all as real to her as if we are standing in front of her.
Hi! I wanted to ask you how you might stay friends with LO? I had my limerence episode yesterday. That man is like a social service, he has a family and I’ve read about worst scenarios I should think about IF we do something. I don’t want to say anything of respect. He helps me a lot and I’m afraid that if I’ll reveal that, I’ll need to change his service to another one. But I don’t know. I kinda still want his help. Will it help me to reveal my feelings and say that we can try to emm be more serious with each other and no jokes, and maybe no extra help? But I still need it. I don’t know what to do, maybe need to right it kinda in a main thread…hope you have some advice for me. Even when I speak about him, I feel so warm. We meet once every other week, but he’ll now be away for 1.5 months.
Hi Kristy, you have great questions.
If you want to be his friend, consider what is best for him. A strong family is the best thing for him. You can’t give him that because he already has a family. Conduct yourself in a manner that will uplift and encourage him in his role as a husband and father. You can keep him in your life as long as you behave appropriately. It won’t be easy.
Don’t reveal your feelings. He is married and nothing good will come of it if you tell him that you are attracted to him.
I have a deal with myself. If I cross a line, I have to go full NC. This would mean not seeing a whole friends group I adore, missing out on activities that make me happy, and disrupt my entire life. But that’s the deal.
Approaching the whole idea like an addict has helped a lot. Of course I want another hit. An alcoholic would be tempted by a drink. But I look at it from a larger dopamine issue. I’m trying to be more balanced. No high highs means no low lows.
Pithy, simple and thought-provoking. I hate the very thought of being an addict but I guess that’s what this is, according to the neuroscience.
I guess the first step to recovery is admitting that you have a problem. Isn’t that how it goes?
This is great very good. I am exhausted. I’m at the hospital with my husband who had to have an unexpected surgery. He is doing well but a very serious situation. It put this whole thing in perspective. I need to work on this and be 100 percent there for him and not LO. I
I deleted LOs phone number from my phone and am going to be proactive. I am angry at myself for my actions over the past several years. So great to have this place to come to where others understand.
You rock, Beth! You are progressing towards recovery rapidly. Way to go. I hope your hubby gets through his trial quickly and recovers soon.
Hey Beth,
I hope your husband recovers completely soon.
“It put this whole thing in perspective.”
I have heard that something shocking like that in real life sometimes does away with limerence (which just seems not even relevant anymore).
I wish you well!
I can’t say I ever have to deal with real temptation with this LE. Everything is in my head over LO anyway, so if anything, warding off the temptation to think of her is a lot harder.
There have been nights after work, I will drive to a quiet place on the other end of the Complex and will park the car and maybe sit there for a few hours, to pray, meditate, and try to sort out where is my life going. Sometimes I cry a lot. Sometimes I write, sometimes I eat a donut. Once I am able to, I will probably come to Lwl. But I go to this place because it has become a friend to me. Between dealing with my angry Daughter and Dad in the Hospital, to not think of LO seems criminal, but I just do.
Lately though, I am trying to work on forgiving myself for getting into such a disappointment. That is not easy because I am very stubborn.
As of late, I am exhausted. I have been working long hours and spending the evenings at the Hospital with my Father. His condition is improving and it appears he will be released next week. However the hard work does not end there. As there will be aftercare needs. I am taking one day at a time.
I apologize for not getting back to the forum here more often. Some of the blogs have had some fantastic insight lately. I appreciate all of you for your consistency to writing. I will try to get to maybe responding to some of them this later or this weekend.
Mj, you have a lot on your plate and you don’t owe us anything. Your presence here is wanted, and your absence is fine, too. We will catch up when you have time. That is a heavy load you are carrying alone. I am the youngest of my parents’ six children. All of us are competent and want to do what we can for our mom who was recently diagnosed with dementia. I took the lead at first and it was hard! My mom lived with my family until she got aggressive with my 7-year-old and then two of my brothers took over her care. I am soooo grateful not to carry this responsibility alone. What you are dealing with is so hard. I’m sorry you don’t have siblings to help you out. But I will say that the fighting between us has been rough, too. We keep hurting each other’s feelings. I think we are all hypersensitive because we are watching our mom deteriorate. We have a group text with just the six of us where we openly discuss all of my mom’s care. Usually it’s nice. Sometimes it’s awful. Interestingly, we’ve never been as quick to say “I love you” as we are now. Every conversation ends with “I love you” unless it was a fight. That is new. We’re hugging a lot, too. The hugging is also new. I think that losing our mom opened our eyes to the importance of family.
I didn’t mean to make this about me, sorry. I was trying to show you that I have an idea of what you are going through, but I probably shared more than I should have. I hope things get better with your dad and your daughter. I know your ex has no obligation to your dad, but is she someone you can lean on? Does she have a good relationship with your dad?
Hang in there, Mj.
Thank you Lovisa..
Big Hug.. 🤗
My Ex does have a good relationship with Dad. It was actually her and my Daughter, who helped me get him to the hospital a few weeks ago.
I like it when we can still “play” like we’re family. But hate it when they leave. That’s why it’s safer for me to keep it minimal. I’ll start playing the memory loop in my head of us, only to be let down of why we collapsed as a couple. I’m very emotional when that happens.
Oh boy, that is so hard. It makes sense that it would be a let down when your wife and daughter have to leave after you were able to work together. I see why you keep it minimal.
Here’s my ultimate temptation story – at this point it’s hard to believe that this was my real life four months ago. Anyway, LO and I disclosed mutual feelings in December, and the following month was a series of escalating temptations. We’d send flirty texts and love songs to each other all day, she’d come by my office for brief visits where we’d talk and flirt, give little touches on the arm or leg, and share long hugs, and then we’d talk on the phone about how important it was not to give in to temptation because it would be so terrible, and then the next day we’d do it all again. As another poster wrote, it’s like we were seeing how close to the sun we could get without burning up.
One day in mid January, she came to
my office to have lunch together. She got there right at noon so we had a whole hour together, and there was no one else around. We started talking and there was a palpable energy in the air. Neither one of us touched our food. At some point, we decided we should show each other our tattoos. Mine are on my upper arms so that was pretty safe. She has a big one on her upper back and neck, so to show it to me she took off her jacket, stood in front of me, swept her long hair away from her neck with her hand, and asked me to pull down the back of her tshirt so I could see it all. So I was standing right behind her with my hand on her back pulling down her collar, her beautiful neck fully exposed, her skin damp from sweat and her hands trembling. It would have been so freaking easy to start kissing her neck. If I had, I’m certain neither of us would stopped anything that came next.
And in that moment, faced with the opportunity to do the thing I thought I wanted most in the world, the thing I’d been fantasizing about constantly… I froze. I was suddenly filled with a cold terror. I took my hands off her, took a couple big steps back, and sat down. She did the same, and we spend the rest of the hour making small talk while looking at each other hungrily until it was time to go back to work.
That was the last time we were ever alone together. The next day we agreed to take a 2 week break to cool off, and when we did start talking again, we limited ourselves to texting and phone calls. A few times we talked about how much we missed each other and discuss the idea of getting together again in person, but we never did. She told me “but isn’t that how things happen between two people? We can’t just keep putting ourselves in situations where we’re so tempted, and then act surprised when something finally happens.” Obviously she was right.
I’ve thought back to that last meeting many times, wondering what ultimately stopped me from giving in to the greatest temptation of my life. I think it’s partly because it would have just been so counter to the core of who I actually consider myself to be. Deep down, I value integrity, honesty and fidelity.
Additionally, I think that in the preceding month, I’d somewhat successfully inoculated myself against giving in to temptation. Like many others here, I’d read a lot about the aftermath of affairs – to be honest, I’d started with google searches like “what’s it like to have an affair” and even “how to get away with an affair”, but inevitably I ended up reading a lot of accounts written by betrayed spouses and TOWs, and those stories were devastating.
Also, through all my crazy conversations with LO, I knew that she truly didn’t want to give in to temptation either and was fighting hard not to. She told me many times how it would feel so wrong, that she’d feel so ashamed and would absolutely hate herself if she ever gave in. I knew I’d risk doing lasting harm to her psyche and her soul if I made that move.
And more than anything, I just couldn’t shake the thought of how badly I could hurt my innocent SO. I remembered all the pain from my prior LE and how bad she was hurt then, even though the transgressions were not in the same ballpark as a PA. And there were so many nights I’d laid awake wrestling with my conscious, where I’d watch SO sleeping peacefully beside me, thinking about how safe and trusting she felt and how she had no idea how close I was to ripping her whole world apart.
So in the end, faced with a split second decision between giving in to extreme temptation or doing the right thing, I found myself unable to give myself over to the act without thinking about the consequences. It’s pretty terrifying to think how close I came, and how if LO had been a different person, she could have totally turned my world upside down. Thinking back to that feeling of terror helps me now to avoid the smaller temptations that still exist like texting her or finding excuses to go see her at work.
Quite a story!!! Almost like something outside yourself pulled you back from the brink of infidelity. I can’t imagine being in that situation and what I would have done. I have fantasized every which way about being physical with my LO but I never have even had the opportunity to hug her. I have no idea how I would behave in the moment if she came into me.
“Almost like something outside yourself pulled you back from the brink of infidelity“
I’ve thought about that moment a lot over the past few months – initially with equal parts relief and regret, now mostly with relief although still with some occasional twinges of regret and “what if?”. Some strong force definitely pulled me back, and I know for sure it wasn’t my rational mind. I think it was actually something deep INSIDE of me, in my powerful unconscious mind that controls my drives and impulses and fight/flight responses
In the midst of my limerence a few months ago, I had a dream one night where I was sitting on a couch with both SO and LO. LO was sitting between SO and I, and I saw that she was holding a gun and was slowly tracing the barrel all over SO’s face while SO sat frozen and terrified and I watched and did nothing. I woke up feeling burning shame for myself and pity and sadness for SO.
My psychologist told me that dreams don’t tell the future, but rather they’re like X-rays that allow us to see what’s going on deep in our unconscious minds. In my conscious mind at that time, I was drawing ever closer to LO and denigrating SO to myself in order to justify my thoughts and behavior, but I think my deep subconscious saw the real truth – that LO was an existential threat to SO, that I was just allowing it to happen, and that it was fundamentally wrong.
And so I believe that when it truly came down to it, to the moment of truth, my bond with SO and my love for SO was so strongly embedded in my deepest psyche that my unconscious mind actually took over and prevented me from acting.
“I have no idea how I would behave in the moment if she came into me.”
That’s the thing, right? We really can have no idea until that moment actually arrives.
I’ve spent pretty much my whole married life fantasizing about various other women, but it’s always felt safe, because it was just fantasy and it was all in my mind – no chance of anything getting out of control or of any real life consequences. The times I’d somewhat indulged these fantasies in real life (mild flirting, texting, etc) still always felt pretty safe because either the woman didn’t seem to have mutual feelings, or she respected my marriage enough to maintain boundaries. The handful of times over the past couple of decades when other women showed overt interest in me despite my wedding ring, I actually felt disgusted and pushed them away pretty quickly.
This time though… it started so innocently, grew so insidiously… it felt safe and harmless until all of a sudden it wasn’t. In the weeks leading up to that episode, I had a few “oh sh*t” moments where I realized that things were getting away from me. I remember one night sitting in my office after work texting with LO and things were getting really romantic and I suddenly felt a shot of fear – like “I’m actually falling in love with this woman, and it sure seems like she’s falling in love with me, and I don’t think either one of us is really in control of this thing anymore”. And that actually scared me, but it also felt so exhilarating that I just ignored the fear and kept going, thinking I could always stop things later.
I guess that when it comes right down to having a PA, some people are able to go through with it and some aren’t. I’ve read that something like 30% of people have a PA at some point in their lives, so I guess a lot of people actually can. I wonder if it’s like 1/3 of people can actually go all the way, 1/3 never even experience the temptation and/or opportunity, and the other 1/3 are like me where they have the desire and opportunity but ultimately can’t actually bring themselves to do it.
Of course, I don’t believe I’m completely immune to physical affairs just because I escaped this one. If LO had been more aggressive and kissed me first, or if we’d continued to play with fire by spending time alone, or if things had been worse at home with SO, or if drugs or alcohol had been involved and lessened my inhibitions… I’m sure things could have turned out differently. So I guess my advice would be that if you really do value your marriage and love your SO, then do whatever it takes to avoid testing yourself with those kinds of situations, because you really can’t know how it’ll turn out until it’s potentially too late.
Omg Lost in Space. That was incredibly close. It’s one of those moments that is a forking of the ways.
I had a similar moment when LO was basically asking me to … and like you, faced with that moment, I just couldn’t. Like you I basically froze. And there was this dead silence. I saw him accept it, decisively shake his head … and let me go in that moment. It was heartbreaking for me. But the correct decision.
Frodo offers the ring to Galadriel…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ7wB4rm5Hw
They pass!
Song of the Blog: “24 Hours From Tulsa” – Gene Pitney (1964)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da_Y8eUnyjw
Ok, so this is technically about a song about someone who didn’t resist temptation. But, it’s a great song.
Bonus track: “Town Without Pity” – Gene Pitney (1962)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvnCgd0ABww
I love the plaintiveness of his voice, the honky-tonk piano, and raunchy saxophone. But, LO #4 said something once that welded her to this song. I can imagine her swaying to this.
For me giving in to temptation at this time would be “being friends again”. But this would inevitably lead to an EA. I don’t want to be that woman, I know I deserve more, I want to be fully present in my relationship. So my solution was to cut off all communication with my LO, who works at the same company – luckily not directly with me. We say hi, I’m ok with business talk, but I actively avoid social contact. He has requested to talk a couple of times, but I have declined. Feel like an asshole tbh, and I can see that he is in pain (we have/had mutual limerence & a brief PA). But I don’t think there’s another way.
Olive, this is incredibly brave and would be for me the toughest situation of all: disclosed mutual limerence with already a taste of the forbidden fruit. Well done you for recognizing your worth and refusing to take a secondary position.
Olive – I’m in a similar situation as your LO. Mutual limerence with a co-worker (in my case it was never a PA but a very intense EA for a few months with really strong feelings, lots of words like love and forever and soulmate) and finally she decided she couldn’t continue with it both for her sake and mine, and she ended it. Now we say hi in passing and have brief work-related communication but that’s it. I tried to get her to talk again several times and I really was not at all ready to let go of my bond with her. I’ve been in pretty terrible emotional pain from her cutting me out of her life, much like it sounds like your LO is.
But at the same time, I respect my LO completely for making the decision to end it, and for holding strong in her resolve. There’s still a big part of me that hopes she’ll break down and backslide – I still feel that hope every time my phone buzzes with a new text, and still feel a little heartache everything I check and it’s not her. But overall, I know that she’s doing the right thing, and I’m committed to respecting her boundaries because I know it’s the right thing for everyone involved.
It’s been about a month and a half now since she ended things completely, and I do notice that the pain is lessening. I don’t cry nearly as often, I don’t think about her quite as often, and when I do think about her, the thoughts don’t wreck me as much as they used to. I know that if she were to contact me and we talked and maybe fell back into the old patterns again for awhile before cutting it off again, I’d have to start the whole grieving process all over again.
So anyway, I just want to say that I think you’re doing the right thing, both for yourself and ultimately for your LO as well, and I just thought it might help to hear from someone in his position.
Olive, one other thought… have you told your LO clearly and in ambiguously that you’ve decided to cut off contact with him for good, and your reasons for doing so? In my case, there was a period of a month or so when I could tell she was trying to end our relationship, but she didn’t just come out and say so – I’d send texts with no response, she’d agree to talk on the phone at a certain time and then just not answer – and when she would eventually text back and I’d ask her what changed, she’d say things like “sorry, it’s not you, I’m just under a lot of stress in my life”, which only served to keep my hope alive that me and her could somehow get back on track (despite the horrible feelings from being ghosted).
The kindest thing she ever did for me was to finally just send me a text saying something like “talking with you makes me too anxious and too sad, and it’s not appropriate for our SOs, and we need to stop. Please don’t call me or text me anymore.” Reading those words was what allowed me to start the process of letting go and moving on.
Does your LO know why you’re not contacting him, and does he understand that it’s a permanent decision? Or does he still have any confusion about the situation or any reason to hope that your boundaries are just temporary?
The right decision, sadly, Olive.
But if your LO asks to talk again, I think it would be kinder to have a conversation, leaving him in no doubt why you are cutting him off, and removing any uncertainty. That would be difficult but you say you can see that he is in pain.
Thanks to all of you! Yes, I sent her an email when I made this decision. I did state that I was not able to communicate with him on a personal level because of my values and because we both were not able to move on while in contact. I did not give a time frame – but since it has been a year now, I think he can see it’s permanent. Also, I’m in a relationship too now – was single while we had the affair. I am kind of weighing in whether another talk would be worth it. I know it would throw me in emotional turmoil. For me the cost is huge. Him – idk…
Huhh, “her” is a typo. He is a guy.
Olive – my 2 cents is that if you’ve already told him once, you are under no obligation to keep telling him. His pain is his responsibility, not yours, just like I’ve accepted that my pain is my responsibility and my LO doesn’t owe me anything to lessen my pain. Yes, there are a few unanswered questions that I’d like to ask her, and some things I’d like to hear her say one more time, and I’d love to have another conversation with her… but at the end of the day, I know she already told me everything she needed to tell me – that she’s not ok continuing in a secret relationship with a married man because it’s morally wrong and it was causing her a lot of distress. That’s really all I need to know and all I have a right to know. It sounds like you essentially told your LO the same thing.
I know some people would say that the proper thing to do is to end a relationship with a real conversation (ideally in person or at least by phone), that the person ending the relationship somehow owes that to the other person, and that breaking up by email or text is cruel and wrong. I used to believe that, and I probably do still believe that for most normal, healthy relationships. But illicit affairs don’t fall into that category! And when someone (like your LO or like me) violates all of their promises to their SO, they forfeit the right to expect “proper treatment” from the other significant person in their life.
My LO ended it with me by text, and at first that hurt a lot. I was angry with her – how could she not give me the courtesy of an actual conversation?!? But then I remembered… she’d actually tried several times in the past. We had probably 3 or 4 “last conversations” at various times where we’d talk on the phone intending to get some closure and end things, but our chemistry was just so damn good that it would take over and we’d end up basking in each others’ company and talking for hours about everything EXCEPT ending the relationship, and then that conversation would be enough to fuel several more weeks of limerent affair behavior. So in the end, I think she broke it off by text because she didn’t trust that any other method of ending it would actually work, and for good reason.
And having it end in writing has actually been helpful for me, because it was so clear and final and unambiguous. I even took a screenshot of her last text to me and saved it in my hidden photos folder on my phone, so I can pull it up to look at it any time I get tempted to try to contact her again
So anyway, I don’t know all the particulars of your situation and your LO, but from what I do know and from trying to put myself in his shoes, I’d just reassure you that you have no obligation to have another conversation with him or to try to lessen his pain at your own expense. Your focus can be entirely on healing yourself and moving forward, and he needs to find his own way forward without asking anything more from you.
Ah, thank you, Olive. I feel much more informed now and my own comment is far less pertinent. I had been thinking about your situation a lot today. I now realise that you have it sewn up as far as possible.
My LO (which situation was clearly mutual three years ago) is now ghosting me (I do realise that I keep banging on about this) and, if he had tried to explain, I think it would have made such a difference.
If I think back, a lovely lady, a neighbour who was limerent for me some nine years ago, bewildered me because I had told her that I was gay. “Be kind”, my brother said to me. I just felt irritated and I was not kind to her at all. I was flattered by the gifts and the attention. I was so stupid.
Some thirteen years ago another lady, in my previous town, asked if we “could be friends”. I was helping her aunt, who was my neighbour, to deal with her terminal illness. I honestly thought I was just being a kind neighbour, which was very demanding work. I told the niece that I was gay but it felt as if I hadn’t mentioned it. I felt flattered to have her as a friend. Then she too gave me gifts etc. I honestly didn’t twig.
Now I feel fully aware of the depths of feelings it is possible to experience. This will never happen to me again!
@Frederico.
Just a light-hearted comment. But should you and others learn to be wary of gift-givers? Is gift-giving a warning sign of potential romantic interest? 😉
I’ve only just seen your comment, Sammy, and of course you are absolutely right. It’s something that is mentioned in lists of the classic signs of limerence. Gifts should be a warning sign for anyone.
I now flush with embarrassment, looking back, that I accepted and enjoyed gifts from those two women who were limerent for me. I stupidly had no real idea of the depth of their feelings.
I gave my LO, and his SO, three “thoughtful” quite generous gifts although I remember being careful to plan that they would not be too “personal”.
Remembering this has today made me look realistically at the LE and has absolutely stiffened my resolve not to send him a message. It’s an illustration of the madness of it all.
I feel I have been going through a rougher phase these last few weeks. Temptation to pursue personal relationship building interactions at the office with LO has been high, and for the last couple weeks I have given into it thinking I could handle it OK. But I noticed the more I pursue, the more I have low moods later in the day and evening. I need to face the reality that even low level personal interactions with LO is feeding the dopamine hit. I don’t like the intrusive thoughts and feelings of grief over unfulfilled expectations so I need to make a change. So much of this coexisting with LO is trial and error when it comes to flattening out the high and low feelings.
I am going to give stone cold LC a real try. I can get by with LO on necessary work interactions only, I don’t ever need to text her anything, I don’t ever need to take her anywhere, I don’t even really need to have her in my office for any reason. I am hoping I can kind of starve out the dopamine hits and get myself on a more even emotional base throughout the day. It’s not going to be cheery, but hopefully not low either.
In the past I have made it about 2 weeks doing this, but this time I have made a goal of 40 days (I like the biblical ref here) to see if I can push past the grief stage. My LO is not an initiator of much with me so I don’t worry about her actions derailing me much, it is really just my own temptations I need to push past. Also, if LO truly does not have any emotional connection to me, this should not bother her either, though I suspect she might notice a change in my behavior. But she probably won’t care. I’m not doing this out of vindication, it really is for self preservation and betterment of myself and hopefully a better normalized relationship with LO in the long run.
Other than this, I literally have been praying everyday for her to quit this job and move out of my life. I am hoping her SO (he is unemployed) finds a job outside the area and she moves. It would be the best scenario for me, but I can’t count on it and as of now it does not seem likely.
I’ll check back every so often on this.
(Side note…as I am typing this LO popped into my office to ask a question. How surreal!)
Haha, right as I was finishing my last post of the day yesterday, my LO texted me out of the blue, all friendly, just saying hi and asking how me and my kids were doing. It’s like they have some 6th sense to know we’re thinking about them!
Sounds like true LC would be the right strategy for you – you’re not getting anything real out of your interactions with her, and they’re just causing you a lot of distress for the rest of the day. Especially if you know she’s not going to initiate much and you’re not worried about hurting her feelings, then it really just comes down to a battle of you vs temptation – so a 40 day goal sounds appropriate!
I’m debating what to do with my LO now. When she texted me yesterday, I told her I didn’t have time to chat at that moment (I was literally on my way home and about to go out with SO for the evening) but that I’d love to chat and catch up later in the week, and she was like “yeah, definitely!” So now it looks like I’m going to have some sort of personal interaction with her later this week, which I’m excited about but I also know there’s going to be some low feelings afterwards. I think it’s in my court whether we chat by text or phone – sending some brief texts back and forth would probably be the safest and would lead to the least comedown, but it’s really tempting to talk and hear her voice for a bit… I’ll probably just text her tomorrow and ask if she wants to catch up by phone or text and just go with whatever she wants.
I also wonder about her motivations for reconnecting with me after a few weeks of NC that she initiated. It could be that she needs to tell me that she accepted a job somewhere else and will be leaving soon, but she just didn’t want to lead with that yesterday, so I’m curious about that. Or it could be that she just wants to try again to be in contact but at a friends-only level, which I think is something she still really wants and believes is possible.
Awhile back, during one of our “breakups” when we were both feeling really sad, I asked her if she wished we’d never gotten close so that we wouldn’t have had all the heartache. Her response was something like “no way! The heartache will just be temporary while we get our feelings under control, but if our friendship ended that would be devastating”. So I think the narrative in her mind is that we started as good friends, and then our feelings got out of control and we had to stop before anyone got hurt, but with some cooling off time and appropriate boundaries we can get back to being friends again. I have my doubts about that, but I’m also not totally ready to cut her off completely, so I think I’ll cautiously talk with her while being mindful of boundaries.
Hmmm, praying LO would move away. That’s a new one to me but terrible for you Speedwagon. I mean I know it’s for the better in your situation. How that must suck though for you. Hope you can reach a happy medium with the LC. I get how those emotions get the best of you. I’m on a roller coaster myself most days.
I’m still crushed LO left when she did to go work next door. Sometimes I find a parking spot over there in the mornings when I know she’s coming in. I’m always far enough out and parked in a corner where she won’t see me. I’m tempted to want to go talk to her sometimes but I usually never do. I just like the dopamine high I get from seeing her. And then my work day is just a little better.
Just a little.
MJ…over time I have come to the conclusion that if you really want to get over an LO, and I really do, then no contact is the only good solution. Limited contact is jus management of the LE. I have thought for a while now that if LO does not have mutual feelings for me then I just want her gone. I don’t want to be pining away for a woman who has no emotional desire for me. I don’t want to live in fantasyland, I have too many other significant and purposeful realities in my life.
The only other relief I sometimes wonder about is a sort of Lovisa/LO type relationship where there is mutual feelings, mutual reciprocation, but boundaries, and I might feel safe and secure with LO. But my LO has not come close to anything like that, so I left to just pray she moves away.
I’m well past using LO as mood control, the only mood I get from her seems to be pain.
Yes! I love your strategy. Please be boring to her instead of cold. You got this, Speedwagon! I believe in you. And of course I love the biblical reference.
Thanks, Lovisa. My problem is, even when I just seek mild warm friendship with LO I set a hope for myself that things will build. It never does and I feel let down. So I want to break that cycle and just establish no friendship with LO so that I have no expectation of her at all. But, yes, I need to not be cold either so not to have her think I’m upset with her for some reason. Just be boring.
The biggest temptation of mine I am actively trying to break is the deep eye contact. This has always been a pleasure for me with LO, as Debbie Gibson might say, “I get lost in her eyes.” Yesterday I did well at limiting eye contact and I feel it helped to not stimulate me with LO.
Freaking eye contact!!
I totally get that!!
Hard to believe everything I hold dear is inside those eyes. I want to drown in LOs eyes, because like an ocean, they go on forever.
I’m sorry, Speedwagon, but she will notice the lack of eye contact. She might try to get it back. Be ready. She isn’t playing games, she doesn’t understand how she effects you. She likes the warmth and it feels like friendship to her. She probably believes that your romantic interest in her died and things are “safe” now. I’m sorry. I know this is hard.
I’m not convinced that you would enjoy a situation like I have with my LOs (disclosed mutual attraction with boundaries). I think you might feel compelled to escalate it. Do you think it would frustrate you if LO said, “I am attracted to you, but I will never act on these feelings because it’s wrong. I care about you and I know your family is the key to your happiness. I won’t interfere with your family and I won’t betray my husband because I don’t want to hurt my family either. I hope we can keep our friendship appropriate because, if boundaries get crossed, we have to go NC.” And then she still gave you eye contact and was warm and said stuff like, “That’s a nice shirt, it looks good on you.” Would it feel like mixed signals? Would it frustrate you or would you enjoy it?
By the way, you are doing great!
Lol, I love eye contact, too. I locked eyes with an owl over the weekend and it felt life-changing. Those orange eyes captivated me. I would still be standing in that spot if the bird hadn’t broken eye contact.
@Lovisa
She will notice the eye contact because I am so used to having deep eye contact with her when we interact. Yesterday I just kept it to short glances, which actually is more normal. But it feels weird, I just hope she does not think I’m upset with her. The other area to watch is I can be quite personable with the other women in the office then just business like with LO. She may notice that too. But I’m past worrying about her perceptions.
“Do you think it would frustrate you if LO said, “I am attracted to you, but I will never act on these feelings because it’s wrong. I care about you and I know your family is the key to your happiness. I won’t interfere with your family and I won’t betray my husband because I don’t want to hurt my family either. I hope we can keep our friendship appropriate because, if boundaries get crossed, we have to go NC.””
Million dollar question! I have no clue, I sometime speculate it would take stress off me if I knew she at least shared feelings of attraction. But up to this point I have always wanted to escalate things so why would having that knowledge lead to anything different.
Lovisa:
“I’m not convinced that you would enjoy a situation like I have with my LOs (disclosed mutual attraction with boundaries). I think you might feel compelled to escalate it. Do you think it would frustrate you if LO said, “I am attracted to you, but I will never act on these feelings because it’s wrong. I care about you and I know your family is the key to your happiness. I won’t interfere with your family and I won’t betray my husband because I don’t want to hurt my family either. I hope we can keep our friendship appropriate because, if boundaries get crossed, we have to go NC.”
The only good thing about acknowledging mutual attraction is the esteem part of things. Somehow, It feels somewhat satisfying to one’s ego to know that that person is attracted to you, it is just that due to circumstances nothing can happen.
As opposed to flat out, soul crushing rejection that can destroy one’s self-worth. For someone you are limerent for to come out and say-I don’t think you are worthy of affection and I find you repulsive. That’s a pretty tough thing to deal with.
For me (hey, it’s all about me), the trigger for my limerence has always been a definite sign of interest from the other person. My problem is, I blow that relatively insignificant sign out of proportion into a grandiose love that feel (limerence). I guess that’s the glimmer thing.
Nick
I don’t know if this is a ethical strategy or “being my best self” attitude but the one thing that is worked for me in the past is actually building a case of contempt or even downright hatred for my LO.
Let me explain. Many years ago I was in a LTR with someone I was limerent for. I was limerent before we got together, was limerent while we in the relationship and limerent after she broke up with me. Anyway, I was a mess after the breakup, just beyond distraught.
After a time of trying to get back together and being rebuffed, I started have feelings of rejection, resentment and frustration. I started to thinking (correctly or just in my mind-maybe a bit of both) of how this whole LE had basically consumed and ruined my life.
I went NC and celebrated each day I went without seeing her. I went over all the hurt, perceived and otherwise, she’d caused me. Instead of my usual pattern of sentimentality over our relationship, I focused on all the negative and pain my LO had triggered in me (again some real, some manufactured).
I had plenty of ammunition, as I just focused on the hurtful things she had done to me. This was all private. I never confronted or contacted her or let my anger be known to her. Anyway, after awhile the contempt and almost rage I felt for her drove the limerence away. It was like the intense dislike and intense limerence couldn’t co-exist.
Fast forward to today. I am in the midst of a eight month long (and first in many years) LE with a co-worker. My LO is married and despite plenty of great interactions and a tremendous work relationship she had no intention of leaving her husband. Now, the work relationship is ended and I can finally go NC after literally have me life revolve around her.
I have been finding that if I get sentimental and look back at the times we had with fondness and nostalgic glory, I hurt. I cry. I’m a mess. But I’m starting to focus on her as the cause of my misery. Building up resentment and blame. The contempt strategy all over again.
So, my “temptation” trigger I’m trying to avoid is sentimentality and fondness for my LO. I am consciously trying to think of all the ways she slighted me, took advantage of my feelings and generally all the negative stuff of the whole LE.
And it is working. I’m really getting to feel real contempt for her, blaming her for things and judging her actions. I lot of this is just my imagination but it seems real. Just like limerence is a bit a one-way emotion, my anger towards my LO is also not 100% real, but it does help drive the anguish of limerence and unrequited love away. It works for me.
Nick
Is there a way to edit posts after they’ve been…um, posted? There’s a couple of grammar things in the above I’d like to clean up.
Your story of your ex girlfriend mirrors my ex college girlfriend and I also used contempt to get over an LE with her.
I was not limerent for her right off the bat, became limerent while we dated. We dated 3 years. She broke up with me and for the next 3 years I was a limerent mess also. At the time I did not know of limerence but looking back now it is very clear. We continued to talk and came close to dating again. By this time we were in different cities and she actually came to visit me and another mutual friend. It was the most horrible weekend ever. She acted so aloof with me, just painful to be around. I remember dropping her at the airport and feeling utterly rejected. At that point I called her one more time a week later, had a full conversation, and then that was it. I hated her by then and went NC for good. Had my first date with my now SO of 25 years about 3 weeks later. But it took another couple years to rid the ex completely out of my system.
I’m not using contempt on my current LO because I have to coexist with her 4 days a week. I don’t want to hate her. But, I’m basically shutting her out of any more personal pursuit of friendship with her and just treating her as employee X. If I don’t view her as a friend then I don’t have expectation from her for anything in the personal relationship arena. That helps my mood.
Meant “dull” conversation.
There is no way to exit I know of. My grammar is horrible!
Lol…edit!!!
I am so sorry for your pain Nick. It sounds like your past experiences have really hurt you and made you feel a bit bitter? Maybe your LOs were genuinely unkind but I get the impression not, maybe just humanly imperfect?
I have to say that even if building false contempt for an LO and blaming them for your pain might help alleviate your limerence symptoms, I worry that you are getting yourself into mental habit that is worse then limerence. I have never found judging and blaming others makes my life better, if anything it makes me feel disempowered, alienated from other people, and alienates them from me. I fare better from being honest with myself, trying to cultivate compassion towards others regardless and acknowledging / accepting reality just as it is. I know this may sound a bit preachy (I fail at this often!), but just having the intention instantly makes me feel good within, raises my self esteem and makes connecting with people happen more naturally.
Allie 1
“I have to say that even if building false contempt for an LO and blaming them for your pain might help alleviate your limerence symptoms, I worry that you are getting yourself into mental habit that is worse then limerence.”
The limerence is hell. The anger is cathartic. Not a long term solution or a healthy one. Nor very noble. But it’s all I have. It’s worked in the past before they had names for things like limerence and NC. Also, it is purely a NC strategy. I would never confront my LO with my contempt.
Some back story, after two years of job insecurity (restructuring and multiple firings) where I pretty much came into work each day thinking I was going to get fired, I hung on to my job. Lost some good friends and now was isolated in my department.
But, I started in the fall to make peace with the situation. My new normal, so to speak. I was getting used to things and the stress of possible job loss was at bay for now. Romantically, I hadn’t had a LE in four or five years and was a content single. I have chronic depression but didn’t feel lonely at least.
After a couple of months of settling in my company hires a part-time person to sort of help me out as the my job was just not manageable for one person. The new hire, whom I would be working with exclusively, was truly the women of my dreams (LO).
I was truly knocked for a loop. As things progressed, we got along great EXCEPT she was married with two small children. Limerence was being fueled every single day. Eventually, the high of limerence started to subside as the reality of knowing I couldn’t be with her started to set in.
Now, every day was hell on earth. Rollercoaster ride with dopamine of our interactions leading into a huge crash to end every day when we would separate. Suicidal ideation presented itself. She announces she’s pregnant (this is not a pretty story) and will be going on maternity leave in four months.
I’ve gutted out the last four months and she has just left, likely permanently. There is some relief but also grief. I loved this person truly (at least in my mind) and I die each day thinking about her. I’m dealing with grief and limerence and I don’t know where to turn. My only thought is if I can channel this into anger towards the LO, that has worked before to an extent.
Nick
Getting back to the blog. I just can’t let myself get sentimental or nostalgic about the times we had. That’s my trigger. My temptation. Those thoughts are unbearable. So the manufactured anger helps that. Sad, but true.
Nick
“I’m not using contempt on my current LO because I have to coexist with her 4 days a week. I don’t want to hate her. But, I’m basically shutting her out of any more personal pursuit of friendship with her and just treating her as employee X.”
With my co-worker, she’s really been my best confidante over the past eight months and we’ve had a great relationship. I actually did a “soft” disclosure to her where I pretty much laid out my feelings for her in a letter right after she left. Nothing too dramatic, just in an understated way.
But, the fact is she’s now gone from the workplace and really from my life altogether and I have little choice to go NC. I mean I could really make an effort to keep some contact with her but that would just add to my misery. I know that.
With my limerence, when I was with her my limerent mind could not truly understand she was unattainable, so I would get my dopamine high from interacting with her–thinking we were “together”. Then literally the second she’d leave, reality would set in and I realize I could never have her, and I’d crash, pushing my already chronic depression into a dangerous valley. Every day the same rollercoaster.
So, I’m trying to push the whole negative LE experience on her as her doing, therefore creating this dislike and contempt for her and blame for all that is wrong in my life. It sounds cruel but I wouldn’t act on this as I’m totally NC. Like I said, it worked before, that I built up such negativity toward a former LO that it drove the limerence away.
I can’t let myself get sentimental or look back at the previous eight months as “good times”. That, for me, just fuels the limerence and the depression. I have to build that wall of extreme hate, even though most of it is manufactured, to guard against the limerence.
It doesn’t sound very nice, but it sort of works for me. And really there’s no shortage of stuff that I can’t trace back to this LE and her part in it. There’s lots to be angry about.
Does that sound rational? Does anything about limerence?
Nick
Nick, I’m sorry that you feel the contempt for LO that you do. While I don’t think it’s the best solution, I’m glad you don’t unleash any of that on her.
I can identify with your pain as my much younger work LO let me down, after months of what I thought was deep killer eye contact. Come to find out, I may have been freaking her out all along. I can neither confirm or deny that fact, but we never really had conversation about it or anything that mattered. Because I was always so nervous in her presence and could never tell her what I really wanted to say.
Thing is, I know she knows I was into her, but she never really wanted to reciprocate. So rather than letting me ever approach her about it, she eventually made a polite exit from the building to go work at our Satellite operation next door. I’ve been a hot mess ever since. I miss her like you would not believe. I look around for her in places I used to see her, hoping she’ll be there and when she’s not. I cry. I cry going into work sometimes. I cry when I remember every place she made eye contact with me. Yes I’m really depressed I think.
Crushing sadness and depression is what I feel every day for this LO. But I don’t hold one hateful or angry thought toward her. Infact I still hold a candle for her, praying, hoping she might have a change of heart at some point. Yet lingering doubt always remains.
Anger for LO won’t work for me. I know I just end up beating myself up over her all the time, but I guess I think it’s worth it because she still thrills me when/if I see her car next door. Or if I happen to catch her going to and from her car. She’s simply the most perfect Woman I’ve ever laid eyes on. I can’t even fathom the thought of disliking her ever.
My options though are thin and almost non-existent. And lately I can’t get interested in anyone else because LO is still on the pedestal. That’s why I come to Lwl now. Hoping the few friends I’ve made will confirm I’m not crazy.. Yet..
“Anger for LO won’t work for me. I know I just end up beating myself up over her all the time, but I guess I think it’s worth it because she still thrills me when/if I see her car next door. Or if I happen to catch her going to and from her car. She’s simply the most perfect Woman I’ve ever laid eyes on. I can’t even fathom the thought of disliking her ever.
My options though are thin and almost non-existent. And lately I can’t get interested in anyone else because LO is still on the pedestal. That’s why I come to Lwl now. Hoping the few friends I’ve made will confirm I’m not crazy.. Yet..”
@MJ.
I sometimes wonder if it would be helpful to think of limerence not as “person addiction” per se, but rather, as “chasing-a-person addiction”?
I.e. if we think of limerence as “chasing-a-person addiction”, that shifts the focus away from the LO’s aura of specialness (which the limerent can’t control) to the limerent’s behaviour (which the limerent can hopefully learn to control)? 🤔
I could try to control that Sammy, but either way, I know I would still consider her special. Chasing-a-person is definitely a good way to say it. As I guess from the outside looking in, I’m always chasing LO.
“Chasing-a-person is definitely a good way to say it. As I guess from the outside looking in, I’m always chasing LO.”
@MJ.
I don’t think limerents necessarily chase LOs in a literal sense. A lot of limerents are extremely shy and get confused in the presence of their LOs, so literal chasing isn’t an option. It’s more a “restless mind” thing. Some part of our brain is pursuing them relentlessly maybe, even when we’re trying to sleep or read or do other things?
The “life-and-death” feeling people talk about: I wonder, is that uncontrollable anxiety? I feel that the constant anxiety doesn’t stop until something has been settled or resolved within the limerent. The LO may give a crystal-clear rejection, but some limerents still might need to do further healing work to achieve true closure…
“I know I would still consider her special.”
I think it’s okay to see people as special – within reason, and up to a point. I think all humans “have favourites”, though I feel a bit bad for the people who never get to be favourites. And, who knows, maybe some LOs are special. I think the key is to totally respect the other person’s wishes and boundaries, and realise that a particular kind of relationship with that person may not be in the cards no matter how sincere one’s affection or how genuine one’s awe. 😉
I wanted “to be special” to my LO. I’m not sure if that’s the same thing as thinking “LO is special”? But I think all limerents probably crave a meaningful connection with their LOs, and feel disappointed if no such meaningful connection is established.
My LO once told me, after I told him he had a big impact on my life, that he was glad he had a big impact on my life. He was happy to have been an inspiration, in other words. However, he did NOT say that I had a big impact on him in turn. So maybe the impact was all one-way!!
My LO chose to pair-bond with someone else. The woman he pair-bonded with made/makes him very happy. She seems pretty happy with her choice too. That’s my cue to exit stage right, and accept I’ve just been a minor and wholly forgettable character in this particular romantic comedy. But at least my sense of humour is intact! 😁
I’ve probably had some straight up rejection from LO, but because my sick, limerent head wants to always twist the bad into good, I end up perceiving it as a mixed signal. Which is not healthy and could have ramifications, being a work setting. But because I know her HR friends, I figure I’m in the clear. She has had plenty of fodder to probably turn me in, but I don’t think she plays like that.
Since LO doesn’t want to confront me to my face, I just keep the restless mind syndrome going. I in turn, won’t do anything because I’m way too shy. Especially around her. Beating myself up because I have none or at least feel like I have no other options. Like she’s the last female on the planet that could ever like me. When I know thats so not true.
Maybe that’s something having to do with the life and death reference you mention.
“Maybe that’s something having to do with the life and death reference you mention.”
@MJ.
Yes, I wonder about this aspect of limerence. Does the constant anxiety, which feels uncontrollable at times, sort of short-circuit our ability to think about attraction in a clear-sighted manner? I do think our cognitive functions become temporarily less inefficient if not outright impaired by the glorious rose-haze of infatuation. 😉
Now I’m out of infatuation, I notice a lot of people with attractive appearances. But I don’t feel a magnetic draw to any of these people, despite recognising their good looks. So limerence is clearly a completely different kettle of fish to just finding someone super-cute. There’s some huge emotional investment by the limerent in the person (LO) that seems to have happened … by accident?
Limerence really is some kind of dream state. Hard to explain. I can get why people who haven’t experienced it don’t believe it’s real.
Sammy, everything you mention there makes perfect sense. In my case I truly believe at the onset of this LE, any interest I had in any other female, got wiped off the map. Whereas you said,
“So limerence is clearly a completely different kettle of fish to just finding someone super-cute. There’s some huge emotional investment by the limerent in the person (LO) that seems to have happened … by accident?”
LO is by far not a common Woman. And what I would definitely call, super-cute. And then some..
The dream-like state makes perfect sense too. If you had told me last year at this time, I would fall into this LE in July, I wouldn’t have believed you. Clearly I knew something bigger was at work when the LE hit. Nobody can possibly understand this till it happens.
@MJ.
“The dream-like state makes perfect sense too. If you had told me last year at this time, I would fall into this LE in July, I wouldn’t have believed you. Clearly I knew something bigger was at work when the LE hit. Nobody can possibly understand this till it happens.”
Yup, limerence is overwhelming and then some. It’s like a hurricane has been unleashed in our brains, and it’s so intense we forget the chaos is mostly inside our own heads (hopefully) and not going on outside our heads in the wider world…
I mean, family and friends are often unaware of the level of distress the limerent is feeling. Non-limerents can’t fathom the distress, nor the giddy highs, generated by limerence. LOs may also not know of the joy and the distress they’re causing, though it’s not always appropriate that they know, since technically they aren’t to blame.
“In my case I truly believe at the onset of this LE, any interest I had in any other female, got wiped off the map.”
Right on. Limerence is so strong it can make other previous love interests pale into insignificance. It can make people decide they’ve never truly been in love before, since previous experiences weren’t comparable. It can make people forget themselves, their own identities and interests. It can make people forget, or want to completely distance themselves from their old lives. Like: “Nope, don’t recognise that person. That’s not me anymore, etc.”
MJ
“Nick, I’m sorry that you feel the contempt for LO that you do. While I don’t think it’s the best solution, I’m glad you don’t unleash any of that on her.”
To be honest, my LO is the most energetic, spectacular, impressive girl I’ve ever met in all aspects. That’s what hurts. The limerence and the tremendously strong feelings I have toward her are overwhelming.
Now that I’m NC, likely forever, I’ve realized that if I dwell on that, it’ll drive me literally crazy with pain. If I allow myself to get sentimental about the good times we had and our connection, now gone, It will eat me up inside to the point of considering suicide.
With a previous LO/ex, of whom I was in a LTR with, many years ago, the feelings were the same. The longing and despair were unbearable. I guess the only way I could cope was turning some of that hurt and blaming her for it, whether it was really her doing or not. It was really cathartic but not a concerted strategy.
You could say the same “fantasy” limerent love bond I had with her I somehow turned that into a “fantasy” contempt. I associated my pain and everything and turned it on her. Again, this was after I’d it is clear I’d never see her again. It worked to an extent. The fine line between love and hate was there. The anger drove away a lot of the limerence.
That’s sort of what I’m now more purposely doing with this LO, whom I’m totally NC with. My pain and hurt, I’m making her responsible for it. A lot of it is manufactured. But the more I associate my pain with her actions, it tends to lessen the limerence/love I feel for her and makes her the subject of my scorn not crystallized love. I think I’m kind of turning the limerent fantasy on its head. But it is not reality.
It’s a desperate attempt at ridding myself of the limerence. Just like a could easily put her on a pedestal as a love object, I’m trying to do the opposite. But I’m just grasping at straws. I have no idea if it’ll work.
Nick
It makes sense. And if that’s what you need to do, to rid yourself of what brings you down, then so be it. I can totally identify with the lows. They are crippling. I find myself there often..
I wish you luck friend. Keep us posted.
@Nick
“the same “fantasy” limerent love bond I had with her I somehow turned that into a “fantasy” contempt … it worked to an extent. The fine line between love and hate was there. The anger drove away a lot of the limerence.”
I find your approach interesting. It is a form of deprogramming I suppose, just focused on the emotion of anger. Some of us manage to deprogram that way (maybe using other emotions), others find it too artificial and it doesn’t do it for them.
I am, right now, for the first time, experiencing anger towards my LO. And when I say anger, I am saying f*ck you to him in my head, and feeling rage course through my body.
I only came to the conclusion my LO is a player a while ago (I do wonder a little if this is a manufactured judgment? My own way of fantasy deprograming? But there is some evidence to make a plausible case.) Anyway, I am full of contempt for him – and I revel in the glee that he never (as far as I know) got any of the girls he chased (including myself at one stage). Frankly, I think any woman with any sense of self-preservation would steer clear of him. But for the first time in this entire limerence saga, I no longer think “oh LO, how sweet he is …” (imagine saccharine V.O.) I’m like, “he’s an a*hole, a user, a skirt-chaser, fickle, he played me, he played her (and her, and her), etc.) How dare he??? I was at first a little disturbed by this feeling of intense anger towards my LO, who I had put on a pedestal (as we all do). He is so unworthy of the pedestal. Yes, his natural charms and talent are undeniable; but he has so many faults as well, and I saw them, but refused to let them change my mind.
Now I think the anger is a healthy sign. It is saying, no one treats me this way (I am worth more). No one acts this way and gets away with it (I have standards that no one can violate). And then finally, anger at myself (what in the world was I thinking? My only excuse is that limerence is an altered state of mind.) If I am completely honest, I am also feeling anger over the disappointment, dashed expectations, long-dragging frustration, ego-whacking, and humiliation of the entire episode. Ugh, I basically had a whole relationship (and now break-up) with someone ENTIRELY IN MY HEAD. How f*cked up is that???
So I am thinking you probably have some basis for feeling angry with your LO. The only “manufacturing” is the view you allow to dominate. Whereas in the past, you may have put on the “positive” view spectacles, now you have put on the “negative” view ones”. If it deals with your limerence, I congratulate you on it.
Emily
“I am, right now, for the first time, experiencing anger towards my LO. And when I say anger, I am saying f*ck you to him in my head, and feeling rage course through my body.”
I think when the LO has done some legitimate things that are just plain bad and hurtful it is perfect valid to knock them off that pedestal and just get mad. I liked your post a lot. Sometimes the reality of a toxic LO should make you angry–you don’t deserve that treatment.
For me, there’s some grey areas where I do have to let things fester and build up resentment that might not be her fault exactly but that still feel hurtful. Here’s a list:
–My LO really couldn’t care less one way or the other about me. Yet, I build my entire life around her.
–I must compliment her 20x for every semi-nice thing she says to me.
–She has chosen a life that does not involve me. Pure rejection.
–I take time out of my work day to go and help and mentor her and make her job easier. The same can’t be said the other way.
–I have to initiate most of our interactions. Yet, 90% of our conversations are about herself and her problems. I provide her with an emotional outlet and support but there is nothing going my way.
–She’s out there enjoying her life to the fullest. My nights consist of burying my head and crying into my pillow because I can’t be with her.
–She flirts and overshares. This draws me in but she has no real intention of following through.
So, yeah, there’s some real ammunition there. Of course, I let myself get walked on. Heck, I enjoy her presence and like helping her through her problems and stuff. It is on ME, that I allow these things to happen and give her so much power over me.
But, I can “frame” this stuff and allow it to make me resentful and angry towards her and allow it to bother me and let my anger break that spell of limerence over me. I suppose it is kind of like the concept of seeing the flaws in a LO and focusing on those.
Nick
Awww shite, Nick, I am reading through your list and at first I was yes, yes, yes, my LO did all those things too! Then as I worked further down you list I had a sinking feeling that some of those things could be said about ME and how I behaved. Especially the last two items. Maybe I’m just not a very nice person. And maybe my LO has reason to be angry with me too (I am somehow getting that vibe from him as well – he’s become very terse.) Do you get the feeling sometime that you and LO are involved in some toxic dance?
Nick
LO did everything on that list but flirt. Unless she was either really subtle about it or I am extremely naive. Why would a young lady be flirting with an old man like me?
Either way I find it impossible to think ill of her. I played my role too. Putting her on a pedestal in my head and giving her the special treatment that I did give her. And boy did I. Did she take advantage of that? Maybe. But if I could have treated her the same as my other female co-workers than she would have never had that opportunity to take advantage of me.
Limerent and LO, like cause and effect. You can’t have one without the other. We say “the glimmer” as if it was something that LO did and not something we saw that wasn’t there. If LO thanking me because I stopped at her favorite coffee shop and got her favorite drink and everyone else in the office one, is “my glimmer” than whose fault is that?
Are all the tears I have shed for this woman my fault? And there’s been a damn lot of them. Even still now. Yes she’s out there living her new life with her gentleman friend and I am left trying to piece together my marriage. Yes it is a physiological state of mind, but is it the limerent or the LO that drags it out? Who ruminates in a simple statement or smile, or body language? This is why I can never have hate for LO no matter what this damn limerence drags me through still. LO deserves the good life that she is having because she went through so much in the time that I knew. He seems to be a good man that takes care of her and her daughters. How can I not be happy for her? Would I have liked to maintain a friendship at some level and still have contact with her? Sure. But could I? And does she know that I couldn’t?
Anytime I want to ruminate about LO I listen to this song. I’ve probably listened to it 10,000 times since I discovered it. Am playing it right now.
“Only know you love her when you let her go”
Let Her Go — Passenger
https://youtu.be/RBumgq5yVrA
Welcome to LwL or welcome back. Either way glad to have you here.
Oh how I often wish I had some of the problems you guys experience with your LOs. I guess it’s all perspective in the grand sense of things but I just consider my LE so much more lame and pathetic. And truly I must be the one out of my god*#@! mind.
You see, I finally LO again today. First time I’ve seen her up close since February. She came back at lunchtime to see her friend and her guy friend. She was in the corridor hallway talking with them and when I saw her, she was still the same glimmery, shimmery beauty I never forgot. All the makeup, scent, earrings, outfit, shoes, you name it, she looked ravishing. Except when she locked eyes with me, she gave me a dirty look. (Like just get out here, I have no time for your bs) I was taken aback, like I always am and almost felt like stopping to confront. But I didn’t because I figured she was going to tell her guy friend to confront me. At least it’s what I kind of interpreted from her look. I really thought he was going to follow and say words to me but he didn’t. I mean I guess I was pissed but I’m not sure what to think. It’s not the first time she’s tried to be a little cheeky with me when she’s with her friends. It was just different this time with Dude there. I didn’t want to make a scene.
After going into the bathroom to compose myself, I still was kind of in shock. And now I feel sadness coming on. But again, it’s not the first low to hit me. Infact my sick, limerent head is saying to me, “Don’t take it so hard MJ, at least she didn’t forget about you” And guess what? It’s actually working and mind f—ing with me to convince and believe that. When clearly I just got walked on. That is what sucks, because I will give her a pass again and make myself believe otherwise. And really, I’m just the sick weirdo who can’t stop staring at her. Because she forgot what her gorgeous smile did to me almost 1 year ago, that rocketed me into this LE at light speed. Now I just cry and whine about what I failed to do. What is wrong with me People??
Guess I just get jealous because so many of you have some level of actual good contact. To you it probably sucks and in that perspective, I can see and recognize this. Forgive me for thinking your situations are better or noteworthy, when you have your own clear hang ups about them. I get it.
However I would give anything to have LO like physically use me at this point. Just because I’m literally that desperate, sad and pathetic. It’s almost like it self-abuse. Like I want to be humiliated, just because it’s LO and there she still is up on the pedestal. And I’m down on my knees still worshipping the LO Goddess. Could I possibly be any more self-deprecating??
Sorry, just feeling numb to the situation today and I needed to vent. I’m sure the sadness will hit me like a Mack truck later on at some point.
@ MJ
I can tell you are really suffering. I am so sorry you are going through this. I understand why you feel your case is even more in your head than any of ours, and it is humbling to think that you would envy this sad state I (and others) am in, but I acknowledge there are degrees of fantasy, and yours is particularly difficult. Also, I think your life with your challenges make it extremely difficult for you to find solace outside of the fantasy of LO. Anyway, sending lots of empathy your way. I am glad you at least have this community to vent to. We hear you, we see you, we understand your suffering.
We wish it would be over for you. Take care.
MJ – I’m sorry to hear about that experience today. That sounds really painful. I hope you can do something good for yourself this weekend.
I totally get the feeling of being jealous of other people who have “better” LEs. Sometimes I feel jealous of people here who still get to have regular contact with their LOs, and sometimes I feel jealous of people who have had the opportunity to be physically intimate with their LO at some point. But then I realize – everyone here is in pain and no one here is actually enjoying this crap.
Over my lifetime, I’ve had almost every kind of LE. Some that were 100% in my own head where the woman barely knew I existed and couldn’t have cared less about me. Some where we were “just friends” but there was so much more that only existed in my mind. This latest one with mutual feelings but no way to act on them.
And you know what? They all f*cking suck. They’ve all caused tons of anxiety and grief and pain and shame and have all taken over my life while they lasted and caused me to miss out on lots of good stuff and do lots of stupid stuff.
In my experience, there is no such thing as a good limerence experience. Doesn’t matter if it’s all in your head, or a fake platonic friendship, or mutual feelings with barriers, ultimately it doesn’t matter because it all sucks. It’s like asking what kind of cancer you’d like to have. The only correct answer is I would like to not have cancer.
Emily, LiS, thank you so much. Your words mean more to me right now, than you can possibly know. Thank you for not treating me like I’ve lost my mind. This is so very hard.
Mj, you haven’t lost your mind. You are not crazy. You are experiencing attraction for an attractive woman and that is completely normal.
Thoughts of her have been an effective source of escape for you. It makes sense.
I’m curious, now that you’ve had some time to mentally process what happened, what are your thoughts? Maybe there is a lesson in this for all of us.
“After going into the bathroom to compose myself, I still was kind of in shock. And now I feel sadness coming on … Now I just cry and whine about what I failed to do. What is wrong with me People??”
@MJ.
I agree with Lovisa that everything you feel is normal. However, because limerence is involved, it’s like the volume on everything has been turned up to maximum. So, basically, you’re going to feel every little thing very intensely at the moment. There’s nothing wrong with you. It’s just your feelings at super-sensitised right now to anything your LO does that may indicate hope or uncertainty.
I think, for this reason, non-limerents have a much easier time navigating the world of romance. A non-limerent might feel mildly annoyed that someone ignored them, for example. However, a non-limerent’s entire self-esteem wouldn’t crumble over being ignored. Nor would a non-limerent lie awake at night, replaying some scene, and wondering what they could have done differently.
So the “exquisite pain” you feel – that’s because your emotions are so raw and exposed. Limerence makes us very sensitive to cues that other people honestly wouldn’t notice or bother to analyse. And limerence also can create those feelings of self-abnegation you describe, where you’d happily allow yourself to be treated in a demeaning manner if it meant acknowledgement from your LO. The desire for connection is just that strong and “primal” I guess?
Don’t let your anxiety go into a spiral over what you did right or wrong. Imagine the anxiety washing over you like a big wave. You might get wet. You might get knocked sideways a couple times until you learn to keep your balance. But you’re going to be okay.
I know you feel terrible deep inside, but water is just water. Water can’t hurt you if you keep your wits about you and learn to swim. Imagine you’re at the beach and your feelings are the ocean. 😉
@MJ.
Actually, “abjection” might be a better word than “self-abnegation”.
“Self-abnegation” seems to mean self-sacrifice, which isn’t what I was going for. “Abjection”, on the other hand, means self-abasement, being willing to behave without pride or dignity.
I think limerence can put us in an “abject state of mind”? 😉
I don’t really consider myself some bearer of great wisdom here. Because I still think it’s limerent thinking that took over again..
I had actually been worrying the last few weeks, that if I saw LO again, would she still remember me? Which it turns out she infact did. So that makes me feel better. For some strange f—ed up reason. It just does. Like when life gives you lemons, make lemonade.
Think I’m just disappointed what might have been a better thing to do. It happened so fast”. Did the best with what I got, in the time I had l.
@MJ.
“I had actually been worrying the last few weeks, that if I saw LO again, would she still remember me? Which it turns out she infact did. So that makes me feel better. For some strange f—ed up reason. It just does. Like when life gives you lemons, make lemonade.”
Lol. Any hit of validation is going to feel good, bro. No matter how insignificant or ambiguous it is. That’s just the nature of the limerence beast. 😉
“Think I’m just disappointed what might have been a better thing to do. It happened so fast”. Did the best with what I got, in the time I had l.”
I think the biggest problem with limerence, aside from the moral stuff, is that our moods become dependent on LO’s behaviour, and that’s behaviour as in signs of real and/or perceived reciprocation. If your LO remembered you, your brain would take that as positive reinforcement. We, the limerents, are “forever reading into things”, like amateur fortune-tellers hovering over a near-empty teacup, hoping to find irrefutable evidence of goodness-knows-what. 😉
I think No Contact is recommended in cases where the limerent’s everyday moods have become so tied to interpretations of the LO’s words and actions that the limerent is experiencing serious emotional turbulence/high mood instability. No Contact in theory is supposed to help restore mood stability in the limerent by severing the link between the limerent’s moods and LO’s behaviour.
Non-limerents are different from limerents I think in that non-limerents can be very spontaneous around their love interests, and aren’t that concerned about giving off the right impression. Non-limerents aren’t constantly overthinking things, in other words.
I think overthinking eventually leads to feelings of exhaustion. Sometimes, limerents “crash” as a result of their infatuations. I don’t know if the crash comes about because of pain or because of sheer tiredness. I suspect a combination of the two factors. 🤔
@Sammy,
My issue is more or less NC by default. Which is probably LOs ultimate choice. For myself now, the constant anxiety is going to creep in and eat at me. Just thinking of her face or the way she smelled is going to make me tear up. The power LO has over me is beyond my grasp. It’s so crazy what this does.
I don’t know if ‘temptation” is always the right word. For example, for some people, there’s a 0% chance the LO would have them, the LO isn’t knowingly flirting and the limerent is too shy to make a move. In this scenario, there’s fixation on the idea of a person, but no risk of wrongdoing. (The LO simply isn’t interested).
It’s interesting to hear people describe somewhat hedonistic lives and still claim LO is a potent source of reward to them. I think I experienced things the other way round – LO was a potent reward because few other pleasures were seemingly available. He was like an oasis (or should I say a mirage?) in an emotional desert. I would have thought increased pleasure would dilute the pleasure gained from LOs – unless securing a mate is such a big natural reward it overrides the satiation principle?
Let’s run with the temptation theme for a moment. What if someone (single and with nothing to lose) tastes the “forbidden fruit”, but then realises that the forbidden fruit isn’t the potent reward it promised to be? What if someone tastes the forbidden fruit and realises that it’s just a boring old apple, the same as every other boring old apple? Do some people experience disenchantment? I mean, we can’t guarantee rewards are always as rewarding as we imagine them to be… Sometimes, the reward is all is our heads, and reality doesn’t measure up.
I’m not really comfortable with people pitting LOs against SOs, which is sort of what happens in the traditional temptation narrative, because I think it’s a false horse race, a horse race the “horses” haven’t consented to, and it may feed into the obsession. I.e. the limerent starts dreaming about being competed over. “Maybe LO/SO will treat me better if they know I have … options!” 😉
I was just going to say the exact same thing before I stumbled upon your comment.
I’m not impulsive and even when deep in limerence, I have no trouble controlling my actions. So I guess resisting temptation to me rather means not falling in limerence in the first place, not giving in to the glimmer.
Through learning about limerence – mostly through this site – I have learned to appreciate the glimmer (which I now seem to be able to identify more easily) as something that tells me I am not content with my life right now. And I start to look for ways to be happier as to erase the need for limerence as an escape.
This has served me well for a while now. Let’s see what the future brings 😉
Part of my prayer has always been to help me see the real LO for who she really is. I have always put her on such a high pedestal. Always thinking she was more high-end. When deep down, I know she really isn’t. It’s the delusion of what I think I want to see in her. But that’s just dumb thinking on my part.
I’ve always wanted to know what are LOs bad habits? Why was she divorced practically right after she married? What are her health issues? Is she now or was she ever an addict?
Was she abused by anyone?
Anything, so that I can see a side of her that is so real. What makes her human, instead of what I perceive as unmatched perfection. I don’t think this would decrease my interest in her, but it would bring me back down to earth. And that would really help me out with the LE.
As time has gone by, I’ve seen sides of her that aren’t so high end. She doesn’t drive the most expensive car. She doesn’t eat the fanciest foods, and she doesn’t come from the nicest part of town. So I know she’s still human. This doesn’t change how I feel towards her. If anything it helps me appreciate her more. Which is something I would tell her if I could.
“Part of my prayer has always been to help me see the real LO for who she really is. I have always put her on such a high pedestal. Always thinking she was more high-end. When deep down, I know she really isn’t. It’s the delusion of what I think I want to see in her. But that’s just dumb thinking on my part.”
@MJ.
Those are some interesting thoughts. I think one day you will see, or be able to imagine, your LO as she really is – a purely human version of her, in other words. But that day won’t come until the LE is over, and by then, you may no longer be so interested in who your LO really is.
It’s interesting you see your LO as “classy”. I think LOs often represent some sort of ideal for people. Maybe “classiness” is a prominent feature of your ideal woman, and your brain has just latched onto signs of this trait in your LO? Our LOs don’t necessarily lack the qualities we most admire in them. If our LOs have a bunch of great traits, I think we have to take the high road and be happy for them.
Wanting to know every little thing about LO, though, is definitely a sign of obsession. The subconscious brain is probably dreaming ways you could be an ideal mate to this woman, and those thoughts probably shouldn’t be entertained if they can’t find fulfilment in real life, because frustration will be the end result.
MJ
“Part of my prayer has always been to help me see the real LO for who she really is. I have always put her on such a high pedestal. Always thinking she was more high-end. When deep down, I know she really isn’t. It’s the delusion of what I think I want to see in her. But that’s just dumb thinking on my part.”
I’ve seen my LO alone together working at least a total of eight hours/week for the past seven months. And not once has she looked nothing but striking or done anything short of remarkable or said anything that wasn’t fascinating. At least that’s what my limerent mind has told me.
That’s the kicker. Even when she is pregnant and showing, I cannot see any flaw in her. So, I hear what you are saying. That’s limerence, I guess. It’s mind boggling. I don’t have any words of wisdom here. I’m just saying I’m in the same boat.
Maybe one thing to add. No matter how much of a dead end our relationship is, every time I interact with her my limerent brain see registers her and I as “together” and that sweet feeling of connectedness is present. Then she leaves and the painful reality that I’ll never have her kicks in and the crash and disappointment hit me like the first time.
Now that there is forced NC (she’s on maternity leave), I’m hoping at least the rollercoaster of highs and lows will stop. Of course, now I’m grieving the loss of not being with her which is it’s own unique pain.
Nick
Nick, there have been times I have felt so deeply for LO, that ruminating thoughts become so intense, they actually, physically make my heart hurt for her. It’s like I can get so caught up in the emotion of her, just not having her can drive me to suicidal ideation, which is crazy.
It’s like I’ll be crying so hard sometimes, you would think I lost in death, one of my children or somebody else close to me. The pain is that real. Sometimes looking at her picture will make me cry. Because I’ll talk to it like she’s really there with me. Her beautiful smiling smirking face. But then I know she’s not. That’s when I crash. And I bawl like a Baby.
Really feel you there friend. Hope you get a break from the coaster while your LO is out.
Keep me posted.
Yeah, limerence is not for the faint of heart. I think the most painful part for me is feeling rejected by the person that I most need validation from. So, in that respect, not only is there the hurt of not being with LO, the whole try to live a purposeful life flies out the window. My LO has judged me and my entire self as unworthy so therefore my entire life and being, even beyond her, is faulty.
My entire esteem is tied completely to how she feels about me. And since she has chosen to reject me fully, there are no useful pieces left to pick up and move on with.
Nick
“My entire esteem is tied completely to how she feels about me.”
Maybe there is an opportunity here Nick? Work on yourself. It is possible to look inwards to develop self esteem, to learn to be your own best friend and not rely on others for validation.
“ My LO has judged me and my entire self as unworthy so therefore my entire life and being, even beyond her, is faulty.”
One of my therapists loves to challenge statements like this. I’m pretty sure she’d say something like “ok, let’s be precise about what we’re saying. Did LO actually judge you and your entire being as worthless and unworthy? Or did she simply not choose you as her romantic partner out of the millions of possible romantic partners in the world she could choose from?” Because those are two very different statements with very different meanings, and I think we all tend to get so caught up on this one person that their feelings about us are the ONLY thing that matter, and we assign them this outsized importance for determining our own self worth, when really that just isn’t the case at all.
It’s not an easy thing to deal with when you feel so into LO and she simply goes on without you. When I write limericks about LO, I bring that up from time to time. Writing has helped me get feelings out. It just doesn’t seem fair. This most perfect person rejecting you and you really seem to think life can’t go on. I’m there with you Bro. Completely..
Another thing I try to do is analyze LOs actions when she knows I’m around. I can remember a time I felt really down about LO and her other guy friend at work. How they go to lunch together sometimes. There are so many ways she could she could rub their friendship in my face. Like always trying to walk by me with him, or act all giddy when they are together. Like basically show him off to me, as if to make me so extremely jealous. But that’s not LO plays. And I have to almost be grateful for that. Because she doesn’t feel the need to be creul at me, like that.
Maybe it doesn’t apply the same in your situation. It’s just something I feel I need to do, to keep myself grounded enough to believe I can get past this. My mind is not always nice to me when it comes to LO.
MJ
“It’s not an easy thing to deal with when you feel so into LO and she simply goes on without you. When I write limericks about LO, I bring that up from time to time. Writing has helped me get feelings out. It just doesn’t seem fair. This most perfect person rejecting you and you really seem to think life can’t go on. I’m there with you Bro. Completely..”
I have a mood disorder. Major chronic depression. Mostly, I feel bad about myself, esteem gone, hopeless, worthless. My LE just puts fuel on that fire.
However, I have times where I’m pretty lucid and thinking clearly and not in depressive throes. Then my LO seems slightly less significant and I can see things more realistically.
I guess that proves that most of the LE is really in my mind. Not based on externalities but really just the whim of my genetic depression.
I still think building contempt toward my LO is a worthwhile strategy–however bizarre. Right now I’m heading into seven weeks of holidays with no work. Also, I will not see my LO, possibly ever, as she’ll be well into a year-long maternity leave and not there when I get back.
I’m sort of determined not to let her ruin these seven weeks. In fact, I’m pretending to celebrate every day of NC. I am kind not too bitter but damn, it is my right to be angry, especially if I’m not hurting anyone. Too much time and energy and life wasted as this LO as the center of everything. At least that’s how I feel now. In a few hours, I might be a mess.
Nick
@Nick,
” I have a mood disorder. Major chronic depression. Mostly, I feel bad about myself, esteem gone, hopeless, worthless. My LE just puts fuel on that fire.”
I feel a lot of all that myself. Factors that led to my divorce are reasons why I do. I do a lot of self-hate talk and my LE has probably added fuel to that fire too. Uncontrollable crying sometimes, I feel like things spin out of my control with my LO thoughts and emotion swinging. It’s so crazy.
“I guess that proves that most of the LE is in my head”
It is your head friend. Just like its all in my head too.
You have to do what works best for you. If feeling contempt is your strategy for dissolving thoughts of LO, then that’s what you need to do. However without seeing her for awhile, while she’s out on maternity leave will probably help you too. Those angry thoughts may fade themselves out and you won’t need to rage over her.
Wishing you well always…
I see LO as a very feminine Woman. At the same time “classy”. She comes off as a person who doesn’t need to compete to get ahead. Because she works well by herself. She’s not combative or loud. She doesn’t need friends around her all the time influencing her. She does just fine staying under the radar and doing her own thing. In addition to all that, she wears the nicest outfits that compliment her style. I just find that super attractive and sexy as hell. She really is the Girl of my dreams. I can only pray to see a human side of her at some point. Till then, you are correct. I am obsessed..
And also very frustrated..
“I see LO as a very feminine Woman. At the same time “classy”. She comes off as a person who doesn’t need to compete to get ahead. Because she works well by herself. She’s not combative or loud. She doesn’t need friends around her all the time influencing her. She does just fine staying under the radar and doing her own thing.”
@MJ.
Is “self-possessed” the word you’re maybe looking for? Your LO just has a nice air of quiet confidence that you find very attractive?
Extremely. That’s an excellent way of describing her. Its like it oozes out of her and I love that. I would see her sitting at her desk, just so alone and so sure of herself. A lot of times I would see her out and about walking alone. Going out to break alone. There is something so confident and attractive to me about that.
” In addition to all that, she wears the nicest outfits that compliment her style.”
I find this the same with LO when I would see her. Not super flashy or provocative but very feminine and eye catching in her own low key way. She was also a very independent woman that could hold her own. Raised her daughters on her own. Hard working woman on the job. She really didn’t “need” a man, she just chose one. (He’d better know what he’s got too cause he don’t want me to remind him.) A confident, settled into her own, knows who she is kind of woman is very attractive.
I’m quite proud of her how she came out from her divorce when I met her. And very happy for her as well. She was always fine to be under the radar as you say. That’s always been attractive qualities in a woman despite that I go seeking “damsels in distress” to satiate my rescue complex. I don’t think LO ever needed me even if my limerent brain thought so. Maybe she was just humoring me.
I wonder a little (as a woman) if a man’s need to “rescue” a woman is more about him than about her. Most women are pretty strong (your LO included). But a man feels better about himself desiring or being attracted if he is doing something “noble” like wanting to rescue her (even if, objectively, it is obvious she does not need it). I have noticed men have this need to “fix” things – if they can’t it makes some of them extremely uncomfortable, and then they want nothing to do with it (think emotional scenes). And they will do this, even when the woman tells him directly she does not want to be helped/fixed/treated like some weak woman.
The unconscious undertow of this is that men unconsciously prefer women in a power differential (inferior to theirs, ie. as the weaker sex) that makes them (the men) comfortable, in a situation where they maybe feel able to be vulnerable, but also useful, and worthy, and it helps with their shame over their desire/lust etc. for a woman.
This “damsel in distress” narrative comes up a lot here on LwL and is a fascinating cultural construct. A lot of the narrative is that it is fundamental to being masculine or feminine. ie. this is how relations between men and women are defined. When you think about this critically, it gives a hugely harmful message. Women cannot be fully strong (or they won’t trigger a man’s hero instinct and get a man) and in fact could manipulate by feigning weakness. A true male ally would not want to rescue you – he would help you get the skills to rescue yourself. He would, in other words, make himself redundant. Rather than think/hope, if I rescue her, she needs me, will love me.
By the way, if anything here I say enrages anyone (I know there are a lot of rescuers here on LwL) – it probably touched a nerve.
Another deep thought from Emily. Seriously, who are you…Yoda? I am impressed.
I love being rescued. Sorry, but I just love it. Let me give you an example. My SO and I hiked a trail that has been off limits due to avalanche danger. It is one of my favorite hikes, but it is steep and close to a popular hike so very few people use this trail. Due to the lack of popularity and the dangerous winter conditions, the trail hasn’t been cleared yet for this season. My SO and I had to climb over many fallen trees along the trail. At one point, the trees got on my nerves and I started trying to clear the trail. I am a small woman: 5’ 4” and 125 pounds. I lift weights, but there’s just no compensating for my small frame. I tugged and tugged at a branch that blocked the trail. My SO patiently watched me struggle. When I gave up, he asked if he could try. Of course he moved it effortlessly. On the return trip he cleared the big fallen limbs and left the little ones for me. We worked together on the stuff that he couldn’t do alone and there were some that required a saw which of course we didn’t have so we left those. Watching him clear the trail was so freaking hot! My inability to move bigger debris didn’t make me feel “weak” because I was too busy checking out my hubby’s powerful skills. Dang it was hot! He is so strong. I love that men are strong and they want to be helpful.
Here is another example. One of my brothers is helping my mom with her finances. It is a big, stressful, seemingly impossible task that I managed to mostly avoid while she lived with me. I am so relieved that he took on that responsibility. We are also selling my mom’s house and my sister took the lead on that one. My brother feels pressure to sell the house to pay off my mom’s debts. He is putting pressure on me and my sister to sell the house. She thinks he is “controlling and bossy.” I think he is a “go getter” and I admire that he took a leadship role to motivate the rest of us to get things done. I guess it all comes down to perspective.
Emily
Part of that rescue complex, for me, comes from an upbringing in a conservative Christian household. I am not even trying to touch nerves with our Christian friends here, but I do think a lot of what I was taught about the differences in men and women and the roles that men and women should play in a relationship is why I have this need. Especially when I feel close to a woman, be it romantic, platonic or in a secular setting like LO.
My father took the lead role in most all aspects of my parent’s marriage. He was always there for my mother. From consoling her when her parents died (both very young). To accepting my aunt (my mother’s sister) into the home when she still lived with their parents. My aunt was 10 years younger than mother and hadn’t gotten out on her own yet. So my father took her in for my mother. To never asking my mother to work a secular job. My father provided for the family himself. My mother never worked until I was a senior in high school. And that was a small business that she had started herself.
I posted this before when I first found this place that every woman I have been involved with has had something I felt they needed to be “rescued” from including my wife. Even the gal I only knew for a night that wanted …. well anyway …. her boyfriend had abandoned her when he found out he got her pregnant. Her parents had no interest in helping her because she had sex before marriage. Even if I only had kind words and some suggestions for a plan for her, I felt I needed to do so to make up for what a terrible (not the word I really want to type) person her boyfriend was. Some time later she left a letter for me at my job then thanking me for my words. She said that she appreciated me being … chaste, I think is the word she used. And said that she was going to a Christian school that had staff to help young ladies abandoned and pregnant to care for their babies. She left no way to contact her but it was …. I still have the letter somewhere.
” I have noticed men have this need to “fix” things – if they can’t it makes some of them extremely uncomfortable, and then they want nothing to do with it (think emotional scenes).”
I remember how frustrated I was when my wife was diagnosed with bipolar. When I would visit her at the psychiatric hospital (that she checked herself into) and when she would first come home I would always come at her like it’s the flu. Like it was something I could fix. Something that I could do to make it go away. If I couldn’t fix it or make it go away than that says more about my failure as a husband than it does that she has this illness. I’ve since come to understand it a bit better since 2009 but it still frustrates me. So instead of trying to help her in this low she has been in for awhile I devoted my time and efforts to “rescue” LO.
“A lot of the narrative is that it is fundamental to being masculine or feminine. ie. this is how relations between men and women are defined.”
Yes, like I mentioned, my upbringing. Someone else (I can’t remember where here) brought up the hope for the change in this gender dynamic with newer generations get older. Gen X was raised in the light of Boomers who were taught the same about gender dynamics and passed it on to us Gen X’ers. Millenials and Gen Z (our boys) have been taught differently. (As an aside I can remember my wife seeing our youngest boy’s bio on a website he left open on the computer and he identified as bisexual. She comes running to me and feels we needed to make a big deal out of it and my response was it isn’t a big deal. It was a moment in my head where I was like “wow look at progressive you” lol) It’s certainly not an excuse to stay rigid in the way we were taught. But it is an explanation as to why. If a woman is in distress of any kind if I can’t fix it, make it right, make it go away than what kind of man am I? Yeah you are probably right, It’s more about me than LO or my wife or any of those women I tried to “rescue”.
But it does feel genuine. I did want to help all those women with their issues. And for the most part up until LO they all let me. And even then LO did some, whether that was her sensing my desire to, and humoring me or she genuinely did want the solicited help that I did give her. It’s a confusing place to be. I think the largest factor with LO was she was recently divorced from a pos that cheated on her and she didn’t really “have” anyone and I needed to step up to be that person. I think the trigger happened so quickly I was neck deep before I even knew it.
Haha you are so flattering, Lovisa. Actually, I think I’ve mentioned before that I’m a pampered and adored and hedonistic kitten. I have very strong men in my life and they take care of me very well. So I not only understand where you are coming from but I am for all intents and purposes occupying the same niche as you. But I want more. I want to own power beyond that, beyond what any man can “give” me. If there is a purposeful life for me, it is that. I am, right now, studying the works of Jung on integrating the anima/animus and U think there is something of that going on in my case.
As for who Emily is … I based her on this one. The most straight-to-the-heart poet I know who wrote:
Heart,
We will forget him,
You and I, tonight!
You must forget the
warmth he gave,
I will forget the light.
-Emily Dickinson
“I wonder a little (as a woman) if a man’s need to “rescue” a woman is more about him than about her. ”
I would say pretty much and why that is can put a therapist’s kid through college.
DrL has some things to say about it:
“I have only ever become limerent for “damsels in distress”. Specifically, women who are bold and confident on the outside, but hiding an emotional wound within.” – https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-best-cure-for-limerence/
“There is nothing so alluring as a damaged soul you’re sure you can fix.” – https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-glimmer-givers/
Those two statements reflect my experience.
Self-sufficiency is on my list of non-negotiables in a woman. With both LO #2 and LO #4, I had this feeling that together, we could have had the world by the ass. My wife is entirely self-sufficient. She’s not with me because she has to be, she’s with me because she wants to be. But, what’s important to her is different than what appeared to be important to my LOs. I think I would be living an entirely different kind of life with one of my LOs.
I like a woman who can stand up to me. It’s one of the things that I love about my wife. I thought LO #4 could stand up to me but after going to war with her, I got the impression that she wasn’t used to a man standing up to her and she didn’t know how to deal with it. She was used to being Narc bait but she didn’t know how to handle someone who saw her as a true equal. Just my perception.
Everybody’s different.
@Adam
“But it does feel genuine. I did want to help all those women with their issues.”
I don’t doubt you and many of the men who have a rescue complex are genuine. I just think many don’t realize how it perpetuates a gender imbalance, and you are right to identify it in many religious structures.
@Limerent Emeritus
I don’t quite understand. You like rescuing “damsels and distress” but at the same time self-sufficiency is one of your non-negotiables in women? How does that work?
Emily,
“I don’t quite understand. You like rescuing “damsels and distress” but at the same time self-sufficiency is one of your non-negotiables in women? How does that work?”
I’m the adult child of an unhappy, alcoholic mother and an alcoholic father determined that I didn’t make the same mistakes he did. I was raised by a passive-aggressive grandfather and a loving but emotionally cold, domineering grandmother for whom no woman would ever be good enough for one of her sons [with the possible exception of LO #2, who my grandmother positively adored] and who laid an interesting filter over what my mother imprinted on me.
Make sense now?
https://livingwithlimerence.com/when-los-return-part-two/#comment-2074
My fixer comes from the 5yr old me to do for other women what I couldn’t do for my mother. The self-sufficient me comes from the things my father taught me, although for him it seems it was more “Do as I say, not as I do.”
Once I figured all this out, it wasn’t that my life didn’t make sense. What amazed me was how much sense it all made. Between attachment theory, personality disorders, clinical literature, neuroscience, working with therapists and so in, it all makes perfect sense.
The scary thing is that knowing all this, it was almost predictable. Given X, this is the likely Y. But, nobody would have that kind of knowledge at an age to make that prediction. One of my friends whose an LCSW and one of only 3 people to have read my history my relationship with LO #2 said it was amazing what I knew. I knew what I was and I saw what was going on. I didn’t know what I was looking at.
I had the X, I had no idea of the Y.
@Limerent Emeritus
Whoa … my eyes literally boggled when I read your background. How are you even … functioning??
My goodness. Okay. That is complex beyond what I can quickly wrap my head around.
(digesting)
Emily,
How do I function?
Divine intervention. Seriously. I’m hesitant to bring religion into the discussion. But, it’s true.
I’ve mellowed considerably as I got older and my wife’s influence worked its magic.
Almost 40 years ago, LO #2 said that I had the most callous attitude toward death of anyone she’d ever met. She was a nurse in the CCU of a large VA hospital. She saw a lot of death. She had a copy of Elizabeth Kubler Ross’ “On Death and Dying” on her night stand. Sometimes, I’d wait at her apartment while she was at work and I read through it.
She said after one conversation, she thought she’d take all the guns out of my house. Telling her that if I decided to check myself out, the hardest question would be what weapon to use probably wasn’t the best idea. I wouldn’t make the mistake my father made and I’d use a large enough caliber. I also know enough about anatomy to know where to aim.
My wife doesn’t know anything about that. She never will. My wife says I’m still pretty cynical but less so.
As Kurt Vonnegut says:
“Life is funny sometimes.
And, sometimes it isn’t.”
– “Cat’s Cradle”
Given my background, I was a lousy candidate for a successful LTR. That makes my wife taking the chance on me even more remarkable.
“I wonder a little (as a woman) if a man’s need to “rescue” a woman is more about him than about her.”
@Emily.
I can’t comment on anyone else’s situation. But I can talk about something from my own life that you might be able to shed light on.
When I was growing up, my mother was forever asking me for advice. So I just took her advice-asking at face value and gave her advice. I thought the advice I offered was pretty good advice, but my mother never adopted the advice I gave. And a couple days later, my mother would be asking me for advice again, sometimes on the exact same topic, as if the previous exchange had never happened!
What I conclude from this is that my mother did want something from me, or from other people, but whatever it was, it wasn’t advice, even though she was explicitly asking for advice. And by advice, I mean my mother said she had a problem she wanted help solving. But she always rejected the problem-solving done on her behalf by men, or even by other women.
I don’t know what my mother really wanted. She’s never been able to tell me, although I’ve asked her outright from time to time. I suspect my mother was lonely and wanted companionship, even constant companionship, and maybe she was socialised to see advice-asking as an acceptable way of interacting with males? Or, at the very least, a fool-proof way to start a conversation?
I could be completely wrong. But I think my mother just wanted friendship and someone to hang out with. I don’t think she ever wanted solutions to her problems. I think problem-solving/advice-seeking was just an excuse to interact with people, usually males.
I suppose a few men over the years might have imagined themselves as my mother’s rescuer. But I think my mother was looking for a companion and not a rescuer, but she didn’t know how to ask for talking/companionship from a man (including her own husband).
My mother, obviously, grew up in a different era to me. I think she’s always been drawn to friendships with men. She gets on fine with women, and has had some deep bonds with other women, but attention from men really bring out a sparkle in her. My mother sees all her friendships with male admirers as purely platonic, whereas her male admirers might sometimes “end up with the wrong idea”.
Emily
“The unconscious undertow of this is that men unconsciously prefer women in a power differential (inferior to theirs, ie. as the weaker sex) that makes them (the men) comfortable, in a situation where they maybe feel able to be vulnerable, but also useful, and worthy, and it helps with their shame over their desire/lust etc. for a woman.”
Not a rescue scenario per se, but generally I would agree I prefer women where the power differential is when the women is “inferior”. That’s probably an indictment of me and might not have a lot to do with limerence, but it is true.
I remember when someone was trying to set me up with a woman. They kept mentioning a bunch of attributes that might be attractive to a female but as a male were intimidating to me (again, lack of esteem on my part).
They said she was assertive, tall, independent, had a great high paying job (lawyer) and things like that. I was just thinking in my mind, I’d actually prefer if she was working the Drive-Thru at Taco Bell. Not that that is a bad job, but just would be less intimidating than a lawyer.
Nick
@Nick
Haha, we cross-posted but to different things each of us wrote.
I often think the ONLY thing we love more than LO is our own egos. A threat to my ego has been the only thing that seems to be waking me up from my limerence stupor! (But maybe I just happen to have a very large ego).
Thank you for your honesty, Nick! That is very helpful.
Emily
“I am also feeling anger over the disappointment, dashed expectations, long-dragging frustration, ego-whacking, and humiliation of the entire episode. Ugh, I basically had a whole relationship (and now break-up) with someone ENTIRELY IN MY HEAD. How f*cked up is that???”
This one way love affair ain’t fair
It ain’t no affair to me
Its all give and take
And you just take
And I can’t take it you see
Well, I’ve given up on love this time
Me and my friends will do just fine
I’ve done everything for you
You’ve done nothing for me
Rick Springfield “I’ve Done Everything For You”
Nick
Hi all,
I just need to get this off my chest and get some feedback from y’all.
As I’ve mentioned (in response to Nick’s post on anger), I have been feeling anger against LO recently, mostly on the basis that he’s a flirt and a player (as I have decided he is). And that I was getting the vibe he might be a little pissed off with me as well. We have BOTH been doing the LC thing with more dedication and determination. The anger helped (but is now gone, dang!)
This past weekend, LO and I had to attend a two-day conference where I knew we would definitely run into each other, and spend time in the vicinity of each other. I was very curious how that would turn out, considering what was happening with us communicating much much less via txt, etc.
I think things started a little awkward – we basically talked to everyone else except each other. But I was really aware of him as he circulated (he looked gorgeous, by the way – of course!) Then at one point we finally came face to face, broke the ice and relaxed a bit. Then we went to some socializing side-event and lo-and-behold, Mr. Player LO made a pass at some woman sitting between us. Is he just so habituated to me that he just does this? What kind of guy does this???? – I mean, don’t men try to pick up women at least in a private setting? I have seen him flirt/try to pick up women/crush at least half a dozen times since I’ve known him, and he likes to do it right while I am there!? Why? I’m wondering if he’s just naturally flirtatious and just does this sort of thing on a reflex, without thinking. It is perplexing and irritating and is part of why I was angry with him. Is it his way of reminding me he’s as unavailable as I am? That he cares naught at all that I’m taken because he can be as well? That’s I’m totally in the friend-zone? I don’t know, but of course my limerent brain is in over-drive trying to figure it all out.
Anyway, the whole weekend was a mix of us being slightly awkward and unnatural, and other times really warm and friendly. We generally did not do the prolonged eye-contact thing at all, except once, when there was a reference to something we had a long conversation about once and he looked at me right in the eyes, raised his eyebrow and inclined his head and I sort of nodded back seriously. The connection felt real, but lasted only a split second.
I remind myself that if this was just a normal colleague, it would be considered perfectly friendly, but because it is LO, for me it felt stilted.
I want a reality check from you all! Remind me this is madness! This is the limerence speaking! Remind me of deprograming points! The whole event is obviously nothing significant, but my brain is already trying to manufacture meaning for so many parts of it. I’m feeling warmer towards him. N000oooo!!!!! Let us not fall into a limerent reverie again!!! SOS guys.
Clip of the Day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boY7i11aYRA
Knock off the speculation! He’s a jerk.
“Jesse” – Carly Simon (1980)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJjW9IPuXn4
“Annie, keep reminding me
That he cut out my heart like a paper doll
Sally, tell me once again
How he set me up just to see me fall”
Hahaha LE, I actually almost laughed listening to that!!! And the name ‘Jesse’ would actually suit LO quite well actually. Kinda rakish. (No offense to Jesses out there)
I feel like he’s trying to go out of his way to make you jealous. Or at least prove to himself or you, he’s still got game.
I used to do similar things like that with my wife when we were still married. Guess that’s another good reason why I’m divorced now, right??
Noooo, don’t say that MJ … because if he was trying to make me jealous it means he cares what I think, feel about him. No. I think your other speculation is correct. He wants to feel he’s got game. How immature and purile.
And yeah … next time you get married, maybe drop that.
Emily,
This is madness! It is your limerence speaking! Don’t abandon all the progress you made with deprograming. He makes you miserable. How long do you want to be miserable? He isn’t just messing with you, he is messing with other women, too. That jerk! For the sake of all women everywhere, let’s hate him together! (Okay maybe that’s a bit much, but I’m trying to be on your side).
Be outraged at his horrible behavior! Use the rage! Go running. Rage clean your house. Use this energy for good.
Oh that man is just….just….grrr… I don’t know what word to use but it’s bad!
I hope that helps. You got this, Emily. You’ll get through it.
This is very very good, Lovisa!!!
Emily
“It is perplexing and irritating and is part of why I was angry with him.”
That’s plain disrespectful. Get mad at this jerk. His given you lots of ammo. When I say, “get mad”, don’t confront him on it but file it away under the category on way he’s bad for you.
As far as the eye contact and connection. I’m thinking he does that with everyone knowing how it can act as a trigger for a lot of people. Part of the player “numbers game” mentality.
Nick
Thank you so much, Nick!
It actually does help to hear from a guy on this. My other male friends actually regard him with quite a lot of disapproval. Initially I thought it was just jealousy (because LO is popular with the ladies) but even if there is some of that, it could also be that they are being protective of us.
What about when you can’t resist? When you are so addicted to the rush that you lose all sense of self and reality? When you promise yourself it won’t happen again, then another LO pops up and despite determined taking to’s, when the opportunity comes you just go there again, it’s mutual, and you can’t stop. Nothing else, literally nothing, exists or is as good as that thrill and being wanted and desired. And thoughts of the SO I love and want to stay with don’t even exist. I used to think I was just a horrible person until I found out about limerance. But now, reading all your stories of how you manage to resist I think maybe I am a horrible person after all.
My current LO is just as smitten as me and unfortunately I can’t go no contact. To make it worse I’m in a play with him and we have to hug and kiss FFS. And to be honest, I have to see him a couple of times a week, I like him, I don’t want to try to see him as a negative person and every time I try to think of all the reasons and techniques in the book and that I’ve read on here, my limerant brain says ‘but I don’t want to’. I have to find a way to stop this addictive behaviour which I’m realising is like a drug or alcohol addiction. It’s so much part of me now I don’t know who is be without it.
“I have to find a way to stop this addictive behaviour which I’m realising is like a drug or alcohol addiction.”
C4Cat
I have multiple times (as a person who does struggle with alcoholism) used alcohol as a metaphor for limerence. “The glimmer” is like the first time. Addicts can tell you the continued addiction is the craving for that first time. So we go back to LO like I go back to the bottle. We subconsciously know it’s not good for us but we keep going. Oh just to see LO smile at me. Her sparkly green eyes when she smiles. That’s all the same as going back for another drink and another drink until you get a high. It’s never like that first time you did. Then before you know it, it’s 28 years later and you’re still hooked.
I may be 95% of the way out of my limerence but there will always be a temptation. It might be 10 years down the road, and drunk one night I go looking for LO’s social media. Which is bigger bane than I thought when it comes to limerence. I don’t use it much but I know how to find it. Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, Discord … and probably a whole lot more this old man hasn’t even heard of lol. And if LO never deletes accounts then they are there as a temptation for the rest of my life.
“And thoughts of the SO I love and want to stay with don’t even exist.”
I came close I think to loosing my wife for all the special treatment I gave LO. My wife didn’t know all of it at the time. Only found out many months later, after LO had left the job, when I disclosed to her what was going on in my head. Quite painful to admit too. In hindsight out of the limerence, mostly, I couldn’t believe I thought that my behavior was okay for a married man.
I don’t know if disclosure with your husband is a viable thing, but I can say that it saved our marriage I think. Admitting, rather than my wife finding out some other way, I think was a big part in her forgiving me. I tried to own my actions as best that I could. But I can bet you if I hadn’t disclosed to her I would still be social media stalking LO. Now when I get the temptation I think “Do you want her to find out?” because my wife knows most all my passwords and unlock code on my phone. Not saying she does check on me, but I know it is possible and I don’t want to hurt her again. How do you think he would react if you told him about limerence?
Welcome C is for Cat! I don’t know much about your story, but it sounds like you’ve had multiple PAs during your marriage and you are trying to prevent another PA. It sounds like you have limerence for a love interest in a play where you will have physical contact on stage. I suspect you love that you have an excuse to have some intimacy with your LO. Also, I couldn’t agree with you more that our LOs are powerful drugs. Yes they are. But you recognize that you are in an unhealthy pattern and you want to do the right thing. I commend you for your desire to do the right thing. You can change your behavior for the better. You can be faithful to your SO. Wow, it is remarkable that you want to resist LO temptation to be a better spouse. Can I recommend a resource for you? I think you might benefit from some “Affair Recovery” videos. You can find them free on YouTube and you can listen to them while you’re doing other stuff like chores or exercise. The video I chose to start is of a couple who endured the struggles of sex addiction. I don’t know if this is the right video for you, but you could check out their library and chose a video that sounds appealing.
https://youtu.be/sRIgnWccVvM
You are not alone and you are not a bad person. I have resisted my LO temptations, but that doesn’t make me better than you in any way. We are both struggling to do the right thing. There is a parable in the Bible about workers in a field. At the end of the day, everyone is given the same reward for their efforts whether they started during the first hour or the eleventh hour. You might feel like you are starting during the eleventh hour, but it doesn’t matter. What matters is that you showed up ready to work. I’m impressed with you and I wish you well.
Thanks so much for your kind words, Lovisa. I managed to go eight years without a PA in my current relationship (not married and I sometimes wonder if that would help, to see the physical ring!) but then caved twice for the same person. I came out of that by a period of low contact, but now I’m in again for someone else. The worst thing about it is that if I’m being 100% honest I don’t want to stop this one; the limerance feels so damn amazing at the moment. And yes, the hugs and kisses onstage are a powerful reward that I really don’t need! I know I should stop, and I have to – there is no good end to this as we both have SOs, and if I carry on everything will all come crashing down around me but my brain and body won’t listen when I’m in the moment. But I will try – have been trying some deprogramming and will try not to get into a position where I have to be strong because I’m not strong.
Thanks for the video link – I’ve started watching that one. I can’t believe people disclose to their SO and it turns out OK. I would be terrified of disclosing – I hate any kind of confrontation anyway and am neurodivergent so struggle to process and cope with things.
Thanks again for the support and lack of judgement; I know to some people a PA is utterly incomprehensible and reprehensible but I am a master compartmentaliser and think I need help to get out of this pattern.
Forgot my own nickname then, d’oh!
I disclosed to my wife after finding this community back in January. I had printed her some articles of Dr. L’s for her to read about being the spouse of a limerent. About a month or two ago she followed the url on the articles and found this place. She eventually told me that she found my comments (my username is one I’ve used for 20 plus years online) and was hurt by some of the things that I have said about LO. I told her I wasn’t going to lie and say I didn’t mean them because I did.
The pain she felt over the things that I said about LO I think woke me up to how far down the rabbit hole I was before finding this community. It made me face that the behavior I had towards LO was not healthy for a married man. It kind of woke up my rational brain to what I had done in our marriage. Both our boys were even suspect of their father’s behavior even if either of them know the full extent to what actually happened.
Everyone in the office knew something was going on in my head, even if they just chalked it up to a “crush”. I’m sure LO knew she was getting special treatment. But it all seemed justified in my head. I needed someone outside my brain and outside of my work environment to give me an anchor in reality. And that’s why I told my wife about my limerence for LO.
I wanted her to try and understand the best she could what was in my head. Saying I had a crush or was attracted to a female co-worker would actually have been harder (which is what it felt like before I learned of limerence) to admit to her than limerence. Now trying to explain it in a way that she might be able to grasp it was difficult, even with Dr. L’s articles to help me. I tried to own up for my actions as best I could. But what’s done is done.
C is for Cat,
I agree that it is amazing that the couple in the video were able to stay together after the husband admitted to many PAs. I admire his humility when he finally admitted his mistakes and asked for help to change. I admire how she forgave him and helped him overcome his weaknesses. They truly are remarkable. Their story is inspiring.
I wasn’t clear about something from your comments. It sounds like you are in a long term relationship, but you are not married to your SO. Is that right? That is a different lifestyle choice for me, I must admit that I don’t understand that dynamic as well. In a situation like that, are PAs considered cheating? Are the relationship rules the same as if you were married? Is everything the same except that there isn’t a legal document or ceremony involved? Forgive my ignorance, I didn’t live with my SO before we married. I know it is common, but I don’t know how it works.
Yes that’s right, and yes any kind of affair would definitely be cheating whether there’s a marriage contract or not. Everything is the same.
Thanks Adam, for your honesty and your help. I would be absolutely terrified of disclosing to my SO because I would have to admit the PAs and I have no idea how he’d react. He knows I’ve been unfaithful in past relationships or at least I think I told him (we were good friends for a few years before we got together). And I sometimes think he’s suspected something with the previous LE I had since I’ve been with him. I don’t know if he’d rather not know. I’ve never felt limerance or even much attraction for him but we’re so strong apart from when I’m in a LE. The last one I had was awful, I was in such a state – but this one is very new so I have to stop it before it goes any further. I sometimes wonder what is do if it all blew up in my face. I think I would just break apart and I’m not sure I would survive it.
Thanks Adam. That was a very courageous move. My problem is that it’s gone beyond an EA that I feel I could talk about. Physical stuff is so much harder.
Yeah a PA is a lot to deal with. Even my wife said when I confessed to her that it would be totally different if it had escalated to a PA. I can get that totally. Physical intimacy is a big pill to swallow. Thankfully it didn’t escalate on either of our part to that extent.
It makes it very different I think. Understandably so.
Hi C for Cat,
It sounds like you want to do right by your SO, but you are struggling to resist the temptation of other men. Having the desire to do the right thing is the first step. Can I also suggest that you do the right thing for the sake of your own conscience? What kind of person do you want to be? I know I’m asking a lot from you. This problem will be even harder to tackle while you are drowning in limerent hormones, but I believe you can do the right thing regardless of how you feel. You were very brave to admit to a PA. You can be brave in other ways, too.
Thanks Lovisa. I don’t want to be the kind of person that does this but I think over the years I resigned myself to the fact that there was something wrong with me and I was a horrible person in that respect. And that in every relationship a PA would eventually happen and I would have to break the relationship immediately because I couldn’t deal with the guilt. My current relationship is the only SO relationship where I have stayed, got over the LO (twice) and made my peace with it to a certain extent. But I know that is deceitful in itself and not fair on my SO. Then when I found out about limerance it was a real lightbulb moment, but now I wonder if I’ve started using it as an excuse! I don’t know if I actually believe I can stop doing this. I thought I had and then I let it happen again and I realised it wasn’t me that had stopped it, it was a lack of opportunity. Urgh. I am happy with the person I am in other respects, and I’m kind and extremely empathetic – to much so at times – but I’m also able somehow to just switch that off when desire takes over. I’m also neurodivergent and I don’t know if that has an impact on how I struggle to regulate my emotions. I think the key might be to find purpose like Dr L says. Then I might not need this to give me that occasional and temporary high.
C4C<
"And that in every relationship a PA would eventually happen and I would have to break the relationship immediately because I couldn’t deal with the guilt."
How many times have you done this?
Have you ever been in an LE that hasn't ended in a PA? If the answer's "No," I think that's where you should start looking.
If I read you posts correctly, you enter a relationship someone comes along, you have a PA and feel guilty about it. And, you just can't stop yourself.
How long does the LE last once you've left the relationship? Does the LE fade?
It's an interesting twist on destroying a relationship. It looks like an advanced avoidance technique. Things start going well and you sabotage it. And, you feel bad for it, but you keep doing it.
I don't think you need a therapist who understands limerence. My suggestion is to find a therapist that can help with the pattern of destroying relationships.
But, hey, it's just a guess.
I am curious Limerent Emeritus (and anyone else), if there are any cases where someone destroys their marriage, and once the marriage (the barrier) is gone, they are cured of limerence?
Anon,
I don’t recall any limerents who left their marriages for their LO and the LE ended when the marriage ended.
There’s a first time for everything.
LwL has had posters whose limerent SO’s ended the marriage. LwL has had posters who ended their marriage to a limerent SO.
I don’t think any of them are active anymore.
Thanks for the reply Limerent Emeritus. If anyone would know whether this has ever happened on LwL it would be you.
I was just wondering because if barriers are an essential ingredient for limerence, what happens when the barriers are removed? Would it change the dynamic? Would it extinguish limerence? Or – is it too late once the LE occurred (as in the barrier is necessary for it forming but not for it to be maintained)?
Maybe the closest scenario would be to consider the fact that when people who have been in affairs end their marriages, sometimes the affair fizzles out?
Oh, C is for Cat, my heart goes out to you. You are not a horrible person. You are making horrible mistakes, but that doesn’t mean you are horrible. Please stop telling yourself that. Your situation isn’t hopeless. You can do better. The fact that you want to do better is a big deal. Some people get hard hearted and they don’t even want to improve, but here you are, reaching out for help. Give yourself some credit. What you’re doing is you are trying to steer yourself back in the right direction and that is a beautiful thing. I believe you can make big changes and do better. I don’t know what that will look like and I don’t know how it will unfold, but it’s so cool that you’re trying. You are not a lost cause. Your worth is infinite. I think you are right that purposefully living is a great place to start. I want to hear how that goes.
Best wishes!
Thanks Lovisa, that’s so kind. From my limited reading in here so far you seem to be such a supportive and helpful person and it means a lot. It must be hard for people who can’t imagine taking that step to hear about someone who has done it serially. I always used to wonder why other people seemed to manage fine in their relationships without these obsessions and loss of control. Ironically my relationship is stronger than healthier than many I know. Or maybe it isn’t really, under the surface. I think more and more that I need to find a therapist who knows about limerence who can help me to find out where all this comes from, because I literally can’t resist people who are attracted to me. But I’m starting to get sick of myself now so I need to stop trying to make excuses, pull up my big girl pants (and chain them on!) and start to do the work.
Lol, atta girl! “Pull up your big girl pants and chain them on.” I think a therapist is a great idea. Do you have an EAP program available to you? Do you know how to get yourself into therapy? You will encounter people who can’t tolerate PAs. Be ready for it, but don’t let it define you. You want to improve and you can do better.
I’m still chuckling at your comment.
Er… No, I work for my SO’s small business …!! Therapy is something I’ve thought about for a long time so it’s just a case of finding the right one
Hi Limerent Emeritis,
How many times have you done this?
In every relationship I’ve ever had 🙁
Have you ever been in an LE that hasn’t ended in a PA? If the answer’s “No,” I think that’s where you should start looking.
No… and yes, I think you’re right.
If I read you posts correctly, you enter a relationship someone comes along, you have a PA and feel guilty about it. And, you just can’t stop yourself.
That’s basically it. It’s always after six to ten years.
How long does the LE last once you’ve left the relationship? Does the LE fade?
Tricky to say because the ones where I’ve left the relationship have been very toxic ones, where I’ve been strung along for ages and suffered horribly from the whole uncertainty/dangling a carrot thing. They lead to forced NC and so yes, eventually they go but they leave a lot of hurt.
The ones in my current relationship have been with friends who are good people, just tempted like me, and I feel quite differently about the LEs. The first one faded, then came back in a period of high contact, then faded again. The second one is very new but this is the one I’m trying to deal with myself.
And yes, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head with the therapist issue. I’ve thought that myself. I had a brief period of therapy once, which was very unhelpful, but one thing he did say was that perhaps I have a fear of being left.
C4C,
Disclaimer: I’m not a mental health professional so take this for what it’s worth.
What was your childhood like and what is your relationship with your parents like?
It sounds like a therapist specializing in trauma might benefit you.
Check out https://sharischreiber.com/do-you-love-to-be-needed/
It’s a great article. If it resonates with you, it could help you in choosing the kind of therapist that would be the most help.
Thanks Limerent Emeritus – that’s a fascinating article and some things really struck a chord – I haven’t read it all yet as it’s very dense so needs to be read (like I think it says) and digested in bits.
My childhood was for the most part positive – very supported by my parents, and I know I was, and still am, loved, but my family was never one for expressing emotion. They would stand up for me, help me as much as they could with school etc, give up their time for me so that I could do the things I wanted to do, but they couldn’t discuss how they felt about anything. My mum still can’t; she absolutely blanks any talk of emotion and hates it when my sisters’ kids cry – she’d rather give them a faceful of sweets to stop them crying than allow them to express their emotion and talk it through. I think the first time I heard anyone say they loved me was at the age of 15 when my beloved grandmother was dying. I was so nonplussed and embarrassed I didn’t say it back, even though I did, and I regret that.
There were also lots of nasty arguments between my parents all through my childhood, and lots of horrible cold atmospheres where I would pray for the ground to open up and take me away. There are still major issues between them, even though they’re both almost 80.
These days I have given up trying to talk to my mum about anything other than day to day things; my dad struggles a lot with depression and anger and I’ve tried to talk to him about it but I live a long way away and he refuses to take any responsibility for his own emotions or behaviour.
Between the ages of 15 and 18 I was also desperately in love with my best friend. We’d had a brief ‘relationship’ but he broke it off but we remained friends, and after being bullied by my girl friends we became best friends. He was my friend but I wanted him to love me. I used to be in constant agony about why he didn’t want me. I later found out he is gay, which, if he’d known and been able to tell me at the time would have saved me years of pain, hope, confusion and thinking it must be me who’s not attractive enough to be wanted. Not his fault, but I do wonder if that set me on the road to limerence and needing physical affirmation of my worth in terms of attractiveness.
Plus my sister was always ‘the pretty, talented one’ (yes, people actually said that) and I was the hard-working, good child that no-one found attractive. I had a lot of anxiety and struggled to hold my own against powerful, slightly cruel girls at school. I used to wish not to get such good marks because it would lead to teasing.
But as I’ve got older I’m getting attention I never had before and it’s giving me a sense of power I’ve never had before either. And I don’t seem to be able to cope with that without falling into desire and physical intimacy.
Sorry for the long response! I’ve never talked to anyone about this stuff before and even just writing it down is making me realise things.
PS. rehearsal tonight and it’s the kiss… gulp
C4C,
I’m glad that you found the article helpful.
My suggestion would be to print out your posts and take them on your first visit to the therapist. Use the posts to interview the therapist and ask what they might propose for treatment. If you feel comfortable with it, go with them for awhile. If you don’t feel comfortable, keep looking. You pay them.
If you have more to say, let it out. Your safe here. It’s a great place to explore thoughts and feelings
C4C
I remember when L.E. posted that article early on when I first started coming here. I found it very informative and gave me a lot of insight on myself and my childhood. Insight into my attachment issues. And probably a good clue to why I am a “rescuer”. I’m glad he posted it again, so I could read it again. Especially when I read that first section and I was like that is totally me. That is totally my childhood. But my parents meant no ill will. They were doing the best to raise me right. But what they were unknowingly doing is telling the things that they wanted me to accomplish were the most important. So I put my needs and desires to the side to make them happy.
“As an adult, whether you’ve promoted another’s dependency on you emotionally, physically or financially, feeling needed has fortified your self-esteem~ but it has also eased abandonment anxiety, which is central to your compulsive giving or ‘fixing’ behaviors and disappointing or disastrous relationship experiences.”
I remember reading this the first time and it just *explosion* my head. This is exactly my situation. And when I disclosed to my wife about my limerence for LO that abandonment anxiety was at a all time high. Almost to the point, if not to the point, of paranoia.
Which just made the limerence worse, because if she leaves I will be alone. LO left me already. She abandoned me for someone else. If my wife abandons me I will be all alone. I’ll have to find someone else that needs me. Someone that can’t do without me. Cause god knows I don’t want to face my own issues. That’s a task I don’t want to take on. It easier to “rescue” someone else and focus my attention on them.
As an aside, talking about dependency in a relationship, one of my favorite comedians Chris Porter said something along these lines of what love is. “You think you want somebody that can’t live without you. But what you want is someone that doesn’t need you in the least, but chooses to stay with you because they love you.”
Adam,
“As an aside, talking about dependency in a relationship, one of my favorite comedians Chris Porter said something along these lines of what love is. “You think you want somebody that can’t live without you. But what you want is someone that doesn’t need you in the least, but chooses to stay with you because they love you.”
After her cousin’s wedding, LO #2 said this to me,
“I can’t control you. You don’t need me. You were only with me because you wanted to be. There’s nothing to bind you to me. I was afraid that one day you’d wake up and not want to be with me. If I gave myself to you and you left, I’d be devastated…You did everything I ever asked of you. The harder you tried, the more I resented you for it. I made things so hard for you.”
It was 36 years ago yesterday that LO #2 said that to me. I didn’t think it was possible but she made it happen.
I don’t think I’ll ever forget that day.
Thanks Limerent Emeritus, that’s a good idea to print out the posts. And Adam, yes, being needed is important to me. Being ‘special’ I suppose. Pretty sure I do need some help. Don’t seem to be able to do it on my own at the moment, for all my plans and good intentions beforehand, when I am with him the dizzy wooziness takes over.
Well I don’t know here to start. I had no idea this as a thing until I googled “why do I get obsessed with people”!
There is so much in what you all say that resonates with me – the not even being interested until someone gives you the smallest of signs that they’re interested in you, the intrusive thoughts, the absolute taking over of my mind, the giddiness. My latest LO is driving me insane (again). I’m happily married with two children, so, so happy, why do I do this?! I’ve cheated on him before and it was awful, I haven’t learned a thing. I should point out that nothing has happened this time, but I’m in that state where I feel if it doesn’t I will go mad, and if does, I will also go mad! I know the answer is NC but I can’t bring myself to do it. Plus he’s a colleague and I love my job! He is also married. I feel sick with desire for him and I hate it but love it.
“My latest LO is driving me insane (again). I’m happily married with two children, so, so happy, why do I do this?!”
I am married and got limerent for another woman. Though, unlike you, it is the first (and I pray to God the last, and I’m an agnostic) time for me. I have not seen LO in over a year and I am still recovering. I cannot offer you much personal advice for your situation. But below are a few of Dr. L’s posts that might help answer some of your questions about your situation.
But there are other posters here that are/have been in situations similar to yours that might chime in too. Hopefully the posts below will help.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/what-causes-obsession-with-another-person/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/why-is-limerence-so-addictive/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/why-is-it-so-hard-to-stop-wanting-someone/
Hi Problem Child,
Your situation and emotions resonates with me. My coworker LO started giving me a vibe and 10 days later…boom…I’m limerent. Been a crazy 16 months since and I struggle with much of the same thought as you. Being happy in my marriage but also wanting something to happen with LO. I guess lucky for me, LO was not interested. Why I am so wanting and potentially willing to cheat on my wife with LO is something I am trying to figure out and the best I can come up with is I just struggle with monogamy. I like the affection/attention/attraction of women and with LO it’s so strong I also want the physical with her. Part of what feeds this also, I think, is I was never limerent for my SO. We had strong compatibility and enough physical attraction for the relationship to blossom and for us to marry. But now 23 years later I have found myself in desire for this other women almost like I have never felt before. It’s very confusing and disorienting. My SO is an awesome woman and we have built a great life and have an affectionate, caring relationship. I am not dissatisfied with her as a life partner, but romance is different than life partnership and LO is triggering all my romance desires right now.
Is this an actual possibility with your LO? Best advice I can really give is fight against the desire, pull closer to your SO, and try to be as limited contact with your LO as possible.
I think, Speedwagon, you are actually me under another pseudonym! Seriously, this is exactly me. Just change ‘women’ to men! Plus I was never physically attracted to my SO, just in a position where I was desperate for affection and love and he was a good friend who understood me. I do love him and try to make it not just a friendship but it leaves me open to falling for people who I find attractive and/or find me attractive. My current LO has also disclosed his attraction to me but he’s now pulled away because he is married and we agreed nothing good can come of any of this. It hurts like hell because I struggle to read peoples’ motivations and feelings, and if anyone changes their behaviour towards me I automatically assume I am boring, unattractive etc. He may well be doing it for both of our sanity, and I’m respecting that and doing my best too, but I feel very rejected.
Problem Child – I do agree completely with your last sentence though – try to limit contact and find fun things to do with your SO. Unfortunately I have been stuck in the house with an injury for the last week, apart from having to go out to rehearse a play I’m in next week. With LO. Where we have to have physical contact. No wonder I’m struggling.
Oh gosh, Problem Child, I hear you! I am struggling with the same thing, though for me we are both married/in a relationship and see each other a lot in a social setting, and can’t avoid that at the moment. I have no advice as I’m feeling rubbish about it myself at the moment, but I just wanted to offer some empathy.
Thank you C for Cat, it is good to know I’m not alone! I feel all this ‘talking’ about it has helped, makes it more real and therefore so dangerous. Now I have had 3 days away from him so that has probably been a factor – the working week will tell! I am trying to focus on the parts of him I don’t like, behaviour, maybe something in his looks, you know if they’re not perfect… I should say I have had a borderline personality diagnosis too, now perhaps only traits of, so this is an added complication. But if I can switch him to the state of devaluation, maybe I’ll have a chance of getting him out of my head altogether. Not ideal, I don’t want to hate him, but it has to be safer than obsession!
I’ve tried to do that too, Problem Child – but it’s a weird thing; I’m able to observe physical imperfections in my LOs without it making the least difference to how I feel about them! I think I have more luck with behaviour – if there’s a behaviour I don’t like or that hurt me. Trouble is, I forgive that as well! Sigh.
“I love to be wanted, desired, needed, obsessed over, he doesn’t do that, maybe that’s it.” Yes, yes yes! None of my SOs have ever done that. It’s like I target people for relationships who are friends, and then go doolally for LOs who express their attraction and desire. I think somewhere else you said you swing between thinking you are attractive and hating yourself? Apologies if that wasn’t you, or if I’m misquoting. But I am like that. Even worse, my self-worth is far too tied up in my body because that is the thing that has always attracted my LOs. Recently that has led to a new obsession over my body shape and diet which I need to keep an eye on. LO pulling back to the extent that I feel like a leper or something isn’t helping with that.
Don’t you wish sometimes you could just scoop your brain out, run it under the tap and get rid of all those obsessions, emotional unbalances and dangerous impulses?!!
Oh my god, you’re me! You’re a parallel me in another life! Yes, I’d love to take my head off and let it fully rest before putting it back on and starting again.
I don’t seem able to reply directly to you, only my own post, so I hope you see this.
Yes, that was me, hating myself yet also loving the effect I can have on men, but not being quite sure/in control of it!
My SOs usually start off as LOs, but only once or twice has it felt reciprocated – current SO is and always was fairly chilled about emotions.
Yeah, I’m trying to focus on stuff like seeing him coming out of the bathroom at work holding his phone and the room stunk – so he’d clearly been having a s*** reading his phone but even that doesn’t work – no hope!I think the key, for me, is working on myself and other things I love doing, which will hopefully lead for less room at all in my head for him!
Good luck to you, we got this!
Hi Problem Child, yes, it’s crazy isn’t it! If only we could use the limerent power in our brains to power our electricity or something! Mine keeps waking me up far too early at the moment and I just wish I could put it to sleep like I can my laptop.
Yes, I feel as if refocusing on my SO and putting some fun things in our diary has helped me at the moment.
Good luck to you too, limerent twin! Keep us updated 🙂
Problem child, my situation also started because he expressed interest. I did feel the glimmer too, but if he hadn’t given any signs, I would have simply moved on. And I am also married with 2 kids, and it has been a happy marriage mostly…
My emotions are all over the place. I go from anger at him for not reaching out, to acceptance and feeling like it will be ok, to sadness, because I know he is distancing himself little by little and I miss our conversations, and I miss telling him about my day and venting about stuff at work. I wish we could be friends like we were a couple months ago.
I don’t know why he is distancing himself. I have never told him I had any feelings. Unless he sensed it somehow, which would be hard as we don’t see each other in person. I want this to be over and to have never happened. But I am also worried that it will keep on happening because something is missing in my marriage, not to anyone’s fault.
Hey Lola,
It’s so hard isn’t it? But we have to remember that it’s for the best, and perhaps that’s why he’s distancing himself as well. Whether he’s in a relationship or just you, it can never be whilst you are, that is the moral thing to do. I think my moral compass gets skewed by these fantasies and I find it hard to hold on to fact, but the truth is we are both married, and happily so. Something is missing in my marriage for sure but unless I am prepared to nail it down and take some action (and work on myself too), I can’t keep distracting myself with other men, that won’t make things better.
I have been trying to overpower my own mind and keep telling myself all the reasons why it’s wrong, seems to be working. Basically brainwashing myself!
Thank you so much for the replies and advice. Oddly, a previous LO has just messaged me, completely out of the blue, after several years, and on the one hand, it is flattering, but on the other, whoa! It has given me a jolt and I can see all the trouble ahead with the new LO, but is it enough to stop the fantasising and the playing! I do find when I am extra attentive with SO, it really helps, but sometimes I’m just on a high from LO, that feels like a betrayal in itself. It’s all so ugly and messed up. SO is incredible – I still fancy him, he’s a great father, he provides, we have a great life! Utter madness! I love to be wanted, desired, needed, obsessed over, he doesn’t do that, maybe that’s it.