Obsession comes in different forms. Sometimes we can become fixated on a fear, or a memory, or a vice, which captures our attention so completely that our thoughts become a prison. Other times, we become besotted. Rather than being trapped by personal fears, we instead become entranced by another person.
When this kind infatuation moves beyond a simple crush and becomes an all-encompassing obsession, it feels like addiction to another person, or “limerence“.
Limerence is an altered mental state in which a romantic obsession becomes the central, inescapable, focus of life and causes a profound change in emotional stability. This wholesale shift in psychology demands some explanation. What is actually happening when we become obsessed with someone else to that extent, and what causes it?
Obsession is a motivational drive gone haywire. We are impelled to think about, and seek out, this other person so intensely that it disrupts our ability to concentrate on anything else. The neuroscience driving this irresistible urge is based around reward seeking, arousal, and pair bonding, and it differs in key respects from other forms of obsession, such as Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, or erotomania. Those differences can explain why romantic obsession begins and why some people are so compelling to us that they cause a complete upending of our previously stable lives.
Romantic obsession and psychiatric disorders
If you run a search for “obsession” online, you will typically be presented with a list of psychiatric disorders that include intrusive thoughts or compulsive behaviour. This can be quite worrying for people who have previously enjoyed a mostly stable and rational life, before they found themselves overcome with an intense infatuation for another person.
In fact, the sort of short-term change in mood caused by limerence is likely to have a different basis in the brain than the more concerning mental health conditions. The intrusive thoughts characteristic of Obsessive Compulsive disorder, obsessive love disorder, pathological jealousy, and erotomania are mostly focused on distressing emotions – fear of loss, disgust, or anxiety. The prevalence of these conditions in the general public is also very low (for example, lifetime prevalence for OCD is estimated at 2.5% of the population).
For some people, the descriptions of psychiatric conditions linked to obsessive thoughts will resonate – but for many more people their inexplicable obsession doesn’t seem to match. For them, the romantic obsession begins with an overwhelming desire for the other person, an intoxicating infatuation. There is just something bewitching and compelling about this other person that turns them into a irresistible force of attraction.
The neurochemistry of limerence
That starting point – of intense attraction, euphoric connection, and single-minded desire – is characteristic of limerence. However, as the obsession deepens and progresses, it can start to feel different. It can transition from a mostly positive feeling of arousal and excitement to a debilitating and exhausting craving. This is the classic progression for behavioural addictions, where some stimulus or activity (such as gambling, shopping, or sex) is initially rewarding, but then becomes a habit, and ultimately a compulsion.
The neuroscience of romantic obsession is based on reward and arousal, processes controlled mainly by the neurotransmitters dopamine and noradrenaline (see here for a detailed explanation). While there is some overlap in the neurochemistry with anxiety or fear-based obsessions, there are also fundamental differences. Recognising that distinction is important for recovery, because a strategy for coping with irrational fears will not reliably work to break a behavioural addiction.
Romantic obsession typically begins with that desire for reward, which becomes a motivational drive to seek more connection, and ultimately becomes an addiction that is hard to resist. The dopamine-reward-motivation system gets stuck in a feedback loop that gets amplified to the point of total domination of your attention.
Why them?
OK, so it’s possible to understand the neurochemistry that leads to obsession, and it’s certainly useful to know that mechanism, but it does leave a pretty major question unanswered: Why does it happen?
What is it about certain people that can trigger this addictive spiral?
The answer to this question will, of course, be highly personal. Why we respond romantically to some people but not others is going to be a complex mix of influences.
First, there are the formative experiences of your personal history that shaped what kind of people attract you. Second, there are the facts of your present life – are you happy and fulfilled or are you burdened with emotional needs that are not being met? Third, there are some people who are particularly effective at triggering the effect. Again, it will be personal to you which people particularly fire up your romantic reward circuits, but the two most important factors for kindling a limerence fire are the hope of reciprocation (they flirt, or in some other way indicate they might be interested in you too) and uncertainty (they give mixed messages, or there are barriers that prevent you from expressing your feelings to each other).
There can be a weird kind of alchemy between people that reinforces romantic attraction to the point of obsession. Whether they represent an archetype of Romance, you are just at a vulnerable point in life, or they are a manipulative person deliberately pushing your buttons for narcissistic supply, the wrong combination of factors can lead to runaway limerence.
Making sense of your own obsession
Given the breadth of influences that contribute to the development of an obsession, it is perhaps not too surprising that there are differing opinions on what the most important cause is.
From a medical perspective, the starting point is to investigate whether known psychiatric conditions are a possible cause. From a neuroscience and psychology perspective, the cause lies in the mechanisms by which specific neural systems can be driven into an overactive state. Ask a therapist, and they will likely conclude that the answer lies in your childhood bonding experiences and your attachment style. In reality, it is the confluence of all these factors that explains your own personal vulnerability to romantic obsession.
To really understand what causes an obsession with another person, you need to honestly assess what’s currently happening in your life, what past experiences shaped your romantic triggers, and how the behaviour of the person you are obsessed with might be reinforcing your neurochemical drives. Then you can better understand how your own behaviour and own choices have contributed to the infatuation.
Ultimately, it is only through this kind of purposeful approach to self-knowledge that you will be able to reverse the mental programming that led you into obsession and devise strategies to break it.
On a related theme, I came upon this video recently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ga4VHjKkv70&list=WL&index=78&t=1349s (Title: Limerence: To Heal Obsesion, Heal Wounds of Neglect)
That lady is awesome and I just watched like 4 of her videos. Thank you for sharing this!
What about gang stalking crazy criminals that want to drive you çrszy or maybe they want to hide real crime against you and make you look like the bad guy including people inside the shelter system and law enforcement.Not A psychosis.
“It can transition from a mostly positive feeling of arousal and excitement to a debilitating and exhausting craving.” Debilitating and exhausting craving is such an apt description. Even when my LE was mutual and consummated, it was so exhausting and destabilizing to want someone so much, because it was just never enough. Now that I no longer have LO in my life it feels very liberating that this exhausting craving is winding down, though never completely gone. I used to crave romance before but now I wouldn’t wish limerence on my worst enemy, unless it’s with exactly the right person at exactly the right time.
“Debilitating and exhausting craving is such an apt description. Even when my LE was mutual and consummated, it was so exhausting and destabilizing to want someone so much, because it was just never enough.”
@Reader.
This is a really interesting insight to me. I’ve never experienced a LE that was mutual and consummated. Are you saying that even when someone wins the limerent jackpot, in a manner of speaking, i.e. LO feels the exact same way, it’s still exhausting and destabilising?
If limerence is basically an appetite that can never be satisfied, (is that the definition of addiction?), even when one’s secured one’s LO, (drug?), then I guess there’s not much point. Though, I suppose the craving is supposed to wind down after the 18 months – 3 years, if the bonding process has been successful?
Why are their no love songs on the radio along the lines of: “Baby, you make me so tired? I’ve felt confused ever since I met you. You drain the life out of me.” 😛
@Sammy – yep exactly. My LE was mutual and consummated but ended before it naturally petered out, way before 18 months. I am sure if we continued eventually my hormones would have stabilized, but in the thick of limerence, it was unbelievably exhausting. Couldn’t focus on anything, being apart was torture, having even a minor normal disagreement felt devastating to an exaggerated extent, and it was the same for my LO. It was almost like that was the price to pay for the pure ecstasy we felt when together and things were going well. And then of course you can imagine how devastating the ending of that type of relationship is, even though in my case it’s definitely for the best … I am like a drug addict in severe withdrawal, even many months later.
“I am sure if we continued eventually my hormones would have stabilized, but in the thick of limerence, it was unbelievably exhausting. Couldn’t focus on anything, being apart was torture, having even a minor normal disagreement felt devastating to an exaggerated extent, and it was the same for my LO. It was almost like that was the price to pay for the pure ecstasy we felt when together and things were going well.”
@Reader.
You’ve described your experiences really well. 😛
I think some limerents, who haven’t really experienced mutual limerence, might think mutual limerence is some kind of nirvana, and we just have to get to nirvana (find our soulmate) and life will suddenly become a bed of roses. No worries, mate, etc.
However, the fact there can be longing and craving and heightened stress levels even in mutual limerence (until of course everything settles down with the passage of time) is a real eye-opener…
Maybe limerence is simultaneously a source of reward and a source of stress?
I can understand how people in the scenario you describe could definitely feel their love is somehow preordained or “written in the stars” because it would feel so extraordinary while it was happening.
“Being apart was torture … the price to pay for the pure ecstasy we felt when together …”
Powerful stuff! But I know you speak the truth, because I’ve had a family member report a similar experience of ongoing mutual yearning while in an actual relationship with their LO.
Doc,
You missed one in “Further Reading:” https://livingwithlimerence.com/and-i-want-you-so-its-an-obsession/
Another “glass-rattler” from 1984: “Obsession” – Animotion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Om5sq_yZmI
Crank up that subwoofer!!!
“To really understand what causes an obsession with another person, you need to honestly assess what’s currently happening in your life, what past experiences shaped your romantic triggers, and how the behaviour of the person you are obsessed with might be reinforcing your neurochemical drives. Then you can better understand how your own behaviour and own choices have contributed to the infatuation.”
I seem to fall for men who shower me with attention, compliments, gifts, early in the interaction, behaving as if they’re besotted with me, and then – a couple of months in – they pull the rug out from under my feet and start to act neutral towards me all of a sudden, as if nothing of emotional significance ever took place between us, leaving me confused.
In other words, I’m susceptible to “love-bombing”. Intellectually, I know the type of man I’m drawn to is narcissistic. But, emotionally, I don’t want to accept this truth because it doesn’t fit with my fantasy projections of a love object who’s perfect and noble and selfless and so on. So there’s cognitive dissonance going on in my own brain. I’m so focused on my fantasy man that I ignore reality.
I think I might be prone to obsessing over just one person because obviously I’m hoping that one person will meet some or all of my unmet needs. I must hold back on approaching a larger group of people e.g. platonic friends and family, to meet social and emotional needs, out of generalised distrust of people that I learnt in childhood. I’m now working on at least partially overcoming this distrust of other people. I’m realising that non-intense bonds can be rewarding too…
I’ve noticed, as I come out of limerence, that the world seems less bright and minor incidents less steeped in powerful emotion. Colours are less vivid. However, the world does feel larger, on the other hand, more expansive, and I discover love in my heart for people who can give me nothing i.e. people who aren’t my LO. It’s kind of like a trade-off. I can have a bright, shiny, tiny world or a less-bright, less-shiny, bigger world. At the moment, I’m tentatively exploring the less bright, less-shiny, bigger world…
Also, post-limerence, it seems like a lot of the anxiety goes out of social interactions. After limerence set in with a vengeance, I developed what could only be described as severe social anxiety. The feeling of “one false move could lead to disaster” i.e. imminent loss of LO and LO’s high regard. Now, that imaginary threat doesn’t hang over my head anymore because I’m no longer desperately trying to cling onto LO to ensure my life remains suitably psychedelic.
I remember letters I wrote him and sent him in which I actually said he was “special to me” and “precious to me”. (Sob! Gasp!) So terribly embarrassing in hindsight. Why was I write such mushy letters to another man anyway? He never mocked my affection. He simply accepted it as his due, without ever reciprocating. Maybe some people think they have a right to worshipped? Ha! 😛
Sammy,
“I’m realising that non-intense bonds can be rewarding too…”
I’m having a hard time with this myself. I have definitely had intense bonds with people that weren’t sexual or based in limerence, but I have a hard time maintaining interest in relationships (friendship or family) that are either really casual or that aren’t casual, we have really good conversations and really connect … but maybe 3 or 4 times a year. I just can’t get my head around wanting to put energy into these relationships. Both types are unfulfilling and don’t feel like anything. I had a group of “chick friends” who would together about once a week, but after several last-minute cancellations without so much as an apology, no willingness to do anything but the same thing we have planned every week at the same time, for the same amount of hours! –conversations that are usually pretty surfacy … I have lost interest. They are neighbors. Sometimes I hope not to run into them because I don’t want to expend the energy to make chit chatty conversation.
“I’m having a hard time with this myself. I have definitely had intense bonds with people that weren’t sexual or based in limerence, but I have a hard time maintaining interest in relationships (friendship or family) that are either really casual or that aren’t casual, we have really good conversations and really connect … but maybe 3 or 4 times a year.”
@Marcia, my dear.
Nothing really compares to the sense of connection we feel to another person while in limerence, does it?
I think my relationships are getting better as I (a) become less shy and (b) no longer feel horribly inferior to other men, especially straight men, which I believe was nothing more than a side-effect of limerence itself. (I want you. I want you to want me. You don’t want me. What on earth is wrong with you? No, wait – maybe there’s something wrong with me. Let me just go away and improve myself for forty years so someday you’ll want me). 😛
I guess friendship is way easier when I get my insecurity under control. But then there’s the problem of … other people’s insecurities! Yikes! Can’t win. 🤣
I suppose I don’t feel threatened by other men anymore. This means I can be a lot more empathetic and warmer and talkative when appropriate. Before, I was just so wrapped up in my own emotional pain. I couldn’t find a way out of my emotional pain. I felt trapped in emotional pain.
I haven’t got any really close friends at the moment. Being an INTJ, I have a low frustration tolerance with people when they’re less cerebrally-inclined than me, and that’s led to damaged friendships in the past. (I have been guilty of arguing friends into mental exhaustion). I working on that. I’m trying to value positive emotional connection over logic. (I realise I’m domineering when it comes to ideas and this intimidates people).
Basically, I’m trying to get in touch with my supportive, fatherly energy. I believe this is what my limerent journey has been about – developing some kind of “ideal father” archetype in myself. But to become the ideal father, I have to face up to the fact my peers are terrified of my intellect, and I need to tone it down. Also terrified of my infamous “death stare” and my occasional outbursts of emotional intensity, including outbursts of anger…
I guess I’m “softening my blunt edges” at this particular stage in my life. I can be a teddy bear, too – just a very smart teddy bear. 😉
Had an amusing exchange with my barista friend. Turns out his just celebrated his twenty-third birthday (is he really fifteen years younger than me? Oh Gosh!) and all his similarly youthful co-workers were congratulating him. I sidled over to the counter and wished him a happy birthday. He said thank you, means a lot mate, etc, etc. Then, expression deadpan, voice theatrical, I assured him that he “didn’t look a day over forty”. He almost died laughing. He couldn’t reply – he was literally out of breath.
I realise I shouldn’t be afraid of my funny side. My funny side is how I connect with people, although it wasn’t well-received in my family of origin. (Neither my mother or father seemed to get my version of humour.
I think my sense of humour is “camp” and camp is all about excess).
So if there a moral in all that? Um, um. Maybe if we want to shine socially, we need to embrace our natural strengths and stop trying to copy other people’s strengths, which might not be our natural strengths?
Authenticity is attractive, apparently. Who knew? 😛
Sammy,
Slightly OT:
As the only self-reporting INTJ here, how accurate would you say this is?
https://thoughtcatalog.com/heidi-priebe/2016/05/how-to-tell-if-an-intj-likes-you-as-told-by-x-intjs/
“As the only self-reporting INTJ here, how accurate would you say this is?”
@Limerent Emeritus.
Interesting link. As always, an honest answer would be incredibly convoluted and complicated and long-winded and messy… 😛
I recently redid the Myer-Briggs test, incidentally, and came out as an INTP this time. Am I an INTJ in limerence and an INTP out of limerence? Or has getting older made me less judgemental overall? Or is it just Marcia’s delectable “P” preference rubbing off on me? (Sorry, Marcia. You know I love you, honey. And thank you if something in your emotional make-up is rubbing off on me). 😉
I’m happy to make a few general observations, though, about how I, as an INTJ/INTP approach romance, which you might find interesting, as I believe one of your LOs was an INTJ? 🙂
(1) I absolutely hate the idea of casual dating. I don’t do casual dating. If I’m on a date with someone, every single second I’m with them I’m evaluating their “mating suitability”, which makes having fun or living in the moment all but impossible. INTJs are very, very serious people. We’re even “serious” when we’re supposedly having fun. We can’t turn off the analytical, pattern-finding part of our brains. 😛
(2) I can be emotionally transparent around someone I really like in terms of gifts, love letters, compliments, physical affection, etc. Sometimes, I can get carried away by pure emotion. However, if I feel I’ve accidentally been too transparent, then I feel super-embarrassed and exposed afterwards and want to retract everything… Then my paramour assumes I’m mad at him/her.
(3) I view romance as something private between the two lovebirds. I.e. I want to be emotionally intimate with one other person. I don’t want to be emotionally intimate with one other person and their three million best friends. I don’t understand people who think dating is just an extension of their everyday social lives, and blab about literally everything… Again, I feel embarrassed easily.
(4) I adore physical affection. Physical affection is my love language. It’s the form of love I enjoy receiving the most, as long as i feel my partner is taking equal pleasure in the exchange of physical contact. Physical affection makes me feel drunk. This is a personal preference. This certainly wouldn’t be the case with all INTJs…
(5) My idea of “flirting” is very intellectual e.g. making sarcastic remarks to the person I like, and waiting for him/her to laugh. I prefer to be “the funny one” in relationships. On the other hand, I absolutely suck at small talk, and can’t do it to save my life. Most people wouldn’t even recognise my flirting as flirting, because it’s a little too “cerebral” for most people’s tastes.
(6) Many people want to be either loved or respected. Oftentimes it’s women want to be loved. Oftentimes it’s men want to be respected. As an INTJ, I want to be BOTH loved and respected by my partner, and this seems to be an impossible ask and a deal-breaker. Most of my potential partners fail the “mating suitability test” because they don’t show me enough respect. What can I say? (An INTJ woman would be that rare and very mysterious woman who values respect over love. In some respects, INTJ women have “masculine brains”, which must throw off a lot of male suitors).
(7) An INTJ likely believes that romantic love is a problem that can be solved with logic, like all other problems in life. We cope very poorly with partners who wish to see things through an emotional lens rather than a logical lens. If you ask an INTJ partner what he/she feels, your INTJ partner will probably tell you what he/she thinks. We get “thinking” and “feeling” mixed up an awful lot. We even “think our feelings” as opposed to emoting them. In other words, we live almost entirely inside our own heads. 🤣
(8) I carried around this belief with me, as an INTJ, that I’m a very warm person, because that’s how I feel inside. Hearts and flowers and unicorns and rainbows. Yup, that’s me. However, I never show this warm, fuzzy side to other people, so other people assume I’m cold and withdrawn or snobby and disinterested. For example, I’ve been told I have a dazzling smile, but I never smile in public. Forgetting to show emotion is a big, big problem for us poor widdle INTJs. We forget that other humans aren’t expert mind-readers. 😉
(9) We hate surprises. That includes birthday surprises, and all other kinds of “nice” surprises a partner might dream up.
(10) If you pay an INTJ a compliment, make sure you’re complimenting us on a trait we actually have. We don’t like to be patronised…
(11) We’re allergic to spontaneity. We like to plan everything down to the last detail. Paradoxically, we’re brilliant in a crisis, because we don’t get immediately emotional when something bad happens. We’re always prepared for the worst.
(12) INTJs have the uncanny ability to focus their entire emotional and physical energies on a single person, should they so choose. This focus can be either incredibly seductive or frankly alarming, depending on the recipient’s point of view. (Did you want the INTJ to focus his/her attention entirely on you? If you wanted the attention, you will probably be charmed beyond your wildest dreams. You will feel “seen” for the first time in your life).
I am working on all my weakness and blind spots, however.
Recently, I attended my grandmother’s funeral. Eight years ago, at my uncle’s funeral, I was the only cousin of my generation giving out hugs. Now, eight years on, all the cousins of my generation were giving out hugs, including the straight males. What happened? Did I single-handedly transform the culture around expressing physical affection in my family? Has my idiosyncratic (i.e. totally made-up) “brand of masculinity” proven outrageously influential, or have I always been slightly ahead of the times? 😉
I even offered one of my younger male cousins a handshake, because I didn’t know how he’d respond to a hug, and I didn’t want to make him feel uncomfortable. But nope, he insisted on a massive hug. Funny thing is I’m not even that keen on hugs anymore. I’m comfortable with handshakes now. I’m turning somewhat-ish conservative in my old age. Handshakes mean respect, right? 😛
I think limerence for me has been about deciding what kind of masculinity I want to embrace, and I realise I don’t need to worry about arriving at the wrong norm, because it seems like all the straight men in my life borrow my ideas/ideals anyway. I thought I was the only “soft” man in the world. However, now I’m close to 40, I realise that the world is full of “soft” men. And “soft” is a compliment in this context – it means “emotionally sensitive”. 😛
Note: In Australia, the cultural norm around touch is still women-women friends hug, men-women friends hug (if the bond is sufficiently close and/or if the couple are related to each other by blood or marriage) and men-men friends (who are always assumed to be straight) shake hands. As a gay male, I just follow the lead of whoever I’m with. I’m down with hugs. I’m down with handshakes. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. My younger male cousin who hugged me had 2-3 standard drinks in him while I was stone-cold sober. Maybe that’s why the secret hugger in him came out?) 😉
Sammy,
Thanks for your detailed response!
Based on it, what do you think of this one?
https://thoughtcatalog.com/heidi-priebe/2015/06/ask-an-intj-do-you-have-a-heart-and-how-do-we-win-it/
Yeah, LO #4 is an INTJ. I got her attention by what I had to say and I think I appealed to her on an intellectual level. Over time, she began to open up to me and when the crap hit the fan, she reached out. Considering that we never actually met, we got along really well online. We bantered with each other unmercifully.
If I’ve ever encountered another INTJ, I’m not aware of it. They do seem rare.
As for your profile apparently changing, there are any number of possible reasons. Did you have the test professionally administered or just do one online? I had the test done twice administered by an MBTI Certified Practitioner, 15 years apart. The numbers changed but I still test as an ESTJ at work, which I don’t think I am. My J score dropped a lot.
Once I got out of the hardcore nuclear engineering environment, my ENTJ was free to emerge.
Sammy,
” Or is it just Marcia’s delectable “P” preference rubbing off on me? (Sorry, Marcia. You know I love you, honey. And thank you if something in your emotional make-up is rubbing off on me). 😉”
You are a sweet guy, Sammy Sams. You really are. My hope for you this year is that you find that wonderful guy who both loves and respects you.
Idk. The Myers-Briggs test never really sang to me. When I read the description of my personality type, I think: Meh. Some of it applies; some of it doesn’t. And I did have the test professionally administered.
What really sings to me is the Enneagram. I’m a 4 style, which fits in so eerily with limerence. Enneagram 4’s are about longing, never having. The Enneagram is not about personality traits. It’s about what drives you as a person, what’s at your very core. For a 4, it’s about being seen as unique and special, but it’s also … ha ha ha … about finding a savior. I laugh as I type that, but kind of in a … limerence, I-never-stood-a-chance way. 🙂
I highly recommend doing a deep dive into the Enneagram.
Marcia,
I know you weren’t addressing me but…
I’m a Type 8 Wing 9 https://www.crystalknows.com/enneagram/type-8/wing-9
It fits really well with being an ENTJ and The Trickster Jungian archetype.
I’m pretty sure my wife is a Type 9 Wing 1. https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/relationship-type-8-with-type-9 It describes us well.
You come across as more of a Type 4 Wing 3 than a Wing 5.
On the unfathomably remote possibility that you and I ever did form an acquaintance, one of us might end up in jail…
https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/relationship-type-4-with-type-8
Are you melee or ranged? What’s your weapon of choice? My mother was a thrower [she never threw one at me.] Her preferred weapon was coffee cups. I remember my father ducking down the basement steps as she launched one through the window of the kitchen door barely missing his head. I had a boss whose wife hit him in the head with a lamp while he was asleep for talking to another woman at a party.
I dodge better than I parry.
Marcia,
“I know you weren’t addressing me but…”
Of course you jammed yourself into the conversation … you’re an Enneagram 8! 🙂
“I’m a Type 8 Wing 9 ”
Two of the male celebrities on my top 5 hot list are Type 8s, though I think they have a 7 wing.
“The Trickster Jungian archetype.”
Mine is probably Explorer.
“I’m pretty sure my wife is a Type 9 Wing 1. ”
So a person who is accommodating and pleasant with a strong sense of right and wrong ?
“You come across as more of a Type 4 Wing 3 than a Wing 5.”
Yes. I’m impressed. I have a strong performative streak, like the 3. I used to be a lot flashier . .. but nobody wants to see a flashy, 50-year-old woman. 🙂
“On the unfathomably remote possibility that you and I ever did form an acquaintance, one of us might end up in jail…”
“Fasten your seat belts. It’s going to be a bumpy night.” 🙂
To quote the legend Bette Davis in the movie “All About Eve.”
“What’s your weapon of choice?
Actually, words. I have a bad temper but have learned that I sometimes need to to wait 24 hours before responding because I have in the past said things that I regret.
Marcia,
“I’m pretty sure my wife is a Type 9 Wing 1. ”
So a person who is accommodating and pleasant with a strong sense of right and wrong ?
– Correct
“You come across as more of a Type 4 Wing 3 than a Wing 5.”
Yes. I’m impressed. I have a strong performative streak, like the 3. I used to be a lot flashier . .. but nobody wants to see a flashy, 50-year-old woman. 🙂
– Definitely not true. At 73, Bernadette Peters is as flashy as they get and she’s smokin’! Many women don’t know how to push the envelope of flash and attitude but the ones that do and can ride that wave are the thing of beauty to watch. A good one can epitomize all that’s right in the world. I can count the number of them I’ve met on one hand with fingers left over.
“On the unfathomably remote possibility that you and I ever did form an acquaintance, one of us might end up in jail…”
“Fasten your seat belts. It’s going to be a bumpy night.” 🙂
To quote the legend Bette Davis in the movie “All About Eve.”
– Sounds like a threat…
“What’s your weapon of choice? Actually, words.
– En garde!
LE,
” Many women don’t know how to push the envelope of flash and attitude but the ones that do ”
I suppose there is a happy medium between wearing the thick sandals and capri pants and not accepting that you aren’t 25 anymore. I’m not sure where it is.
“Sounds like a threat…”
No, not at all. A dare. 🙂
Marcia,
“Sounds like a threat…”
No, not at all. A dare. 🙂
Clip of the Day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ABpi4cbHwg – “A Christmas Story” (1983)
I’ll put a note in the file.
LE,
That clip was a little icky. 🙂 I have never seen that movie. I know it’s very popular. I tend to avoid movies that center around children and sports 🙂 Although I will watch a sports movie if it has a bigger theme. “Bull Durham” (middle-age guy trying to find himself), “Moneyball” (underdog team trying to beat the game by rewriting the rules).
Sammy Sams,
“Nothing really compares to the sense of connection we feel to another person while in limerence, does it?”
I don’t know if I’d use the word “connection.” Intensity, attraction, an amazing high, but connection implies knowing the other person and also being yourself around them. I was never able to do that with an LO unless the limerence had really faded or died. I found out recently that a former LO and a former close friend had died this year. The death of the former close friend hit me harder. I think a part of me was hoping we’d become close again. With the LO it was more like … can I say this? … remembering the hot sex. 🙂 Of course, the LE has been over for years.
“I haven’t got any really close friends at the moment. Being an INTJ, I have a low frustration tolerance with people when they’re less cerebrally-inclined than me”
That’s interesting. I am an INFP and I value the emotional connection the most. If there’s too much intellectual, I am impressed and challenged, but it sometimes feels a little chilly. 🙂
“I can be a teddy bear, too – just a very smart teddy bear. 😉”
That sounds like the perfect combination to me. 🙂
“I realise I shouldn’t be afraid of my funny side. My funny side is how I connect with people, although it wasn’t well-received in my family of origin. (Neither my mother or father seemed to get my version of humour.”
Not everyone will get your humor. Doesn’t mean you aren’t funny. Personally, I’d rather have cute barista boy find me funny than my parents, but that’s me. 🙂
“I think my sense of humour is “camp” and camp is all about excess).”
I LOVE camp. It’s hard to define, but you know it when you see it, and there is nothing more delicious.
@Marcia.
“I don’t know if I’d use the word “connection.” Intensity, attraction, an amazing high, but connection implies knowing the other person and also being yourself around them.”
An excellent distinction. So true, so true. You can’t be connected to someone if you’re frightened to show them your true self. 😛
“That sounds like the perfect combination to me. 🙂”
Thank you. 🙂
“I LOVE camp. It’s hard to define, but you know it when you see it, and there is nothing more delicious.”
I know. And it doesn’t have to be crude or vulgar, either, in order to qualify as camp. Sometimes, it’s just saying what is already completely obvious to everyone, only with a little wink added.
For example, I once visited two gay friends. (A male same-sex couple). I brought gifts with me – some expensive soaps from the organic shop. Normally, you’d expect someone to ooh and ah over a fancy gift. But the older partner in this couple has a camp sense of humour. He refused to be impressed with the present, and it was hilarious. He was like: “Oh, and a brown one too!” 🤣
@Marcia.
Another passing thought that demonstrates just how contradictory us human beings can be. I know I go on and on about wanting respect. But in reality I think the people I’m fondest of in life are the people who disregard my “grand manner” and show no fear of me at all. 😛
Some people can just sneak past my emotional barriers without detection. You are one of those people…
I guess some people might find me intimidating due to overly formal body language. However, I naturally warm to people who brazenly ignore my intimidating exterior (perhaps because they’re not hung up on social status) and just talk to me like I’m a normal human being. I don’t want to be patronised. On the other hand, I don’t like being treated like a genius either, which is what happened in school.
I enjoy being told I’m wrong every now and again. It keeps me grounded. It reminds me to laugh at myself. And I probably am wrong eighty-eight percent of the time anyway… That’s the price one pays for spending so much time inside one’s own noggin. 😉
Someone who doesn’t find me in the least bit intimidating … now that’s my working definition of a genuine friend. It’s so refreshing. I am so sick of always feeling like I have to impress people. I like people who can very charmingly let the air out of my ego-balloon. 😛
Sammy,
“However, I naturally warm to people who brazenly ignore my intimidating exterior”
I’m not an easy person to talk to and approach, either, although I have actively worked at being friendlier. Even then, I feel I am coming across as marginally friendly. I had a male friend who told me I reminded him of film star Marlene Dietrich. Not in her appearance or voice but in her cool manner. Uhhh …. as a movie vamp, she’s great, but who wants to have a coffee with her?! 🙂
I haven’t met you face to face but I don’t think you are intimidating. First of all, I think you are a kind and decent person. I think there’s a vulnerability in your writing. And you are a deep thinker — trying to understand your place in the world and your interactions with other people.
Sammy,
Has anyone ever told you that they weren’t afraid of you? Have you ever told anyone that you weren’t afraid of them?
That’s a boundary tester. You can do a lot with it.
I asked LO #4 if she’d ever been with a man who wasn’t afraid of her. Since it was by email, I didn’t get to see her reaction but she didn’t respond to the question. But, from what she said later, I think it had an effect on her. When LO #4 told me, “Based on what you said, I thought it best to not respond to certain things.” I asked her why and what was she afraid would happen if she had. She didn’t answer that, either.
I said that to one other woman and her response was, “I hope you never are.”
My wife said that when she first met me I scared her. I asked why. She said that I was older, established, oozed confidence, that I knew what I wanted and I wanted her. She was 23, a year out of college and I was 32.
I asked why she kept seeing me.
She said, “I liked it.”
LE,
I ran from a guy in his early 30s when I was 24. He approached me at the mall. He was really hot. I was flattered. Got my number. Actually called. Asked me out. I was floating. I thought: Oh, this is different than the Yahoos my age. And then he opened the conversation about his house and his job. And that did it for me. 🙂
Marcia,
Then, he screwed up. When a woman wants those details, at some point, she’ll let you know .
It’s not that. It was like talking to my dad. I was 24. I wanted to have fun with a hot guy. Next he was going to whip out his tax returns to discuss them. 🙂
Marcia,
That’s what I meant. There’s no reason to go into that degree of detail until the relationship reaches a point where it becomes relevant.
There’s any number of reasons he might do that. He might be trying to impress you with his status. He might just be one-dimensional that’s what he brings to the table. It might be something else entirely. He could just be clueless. Did you try to redirect him?
I remember being in the Officer’s Club in 1981. An attractive woman came in. Toss in the bar tender and we were the only people in the place. She outranked me. She started telling me all about her career, how she’d worked on some admiral’s staff and got all these commendations. That was it, nothing but her career.
I must have said something because she asked, “What’s the matter? Don’t you like assertive women?” I told her that it depended on why they were being assertive.
I told her, “I liked you a lot better before you started giving me your resume.” Then, I finished my beer and left.
LE,
“I liked you a lot better before you started giving me your resume.”
Exactly. I thought maybe he was looking for a wife and thought listing his “practical” credentials would help ? Who knows. No one has ever landed a limerent by talking about practical gobbledygook right off the bat. 🙂 I’ve got to feel for you, baby! 🙂
“Has anyone ever told you that they weren’t afraid of you? Have you ever told anyone that you weren’t afraid of them?
That’s a boundary tester. You can do a lot with it.”
@Limerent Emeritus.
Yeah, there’s something very erotic about testing boundaries, and I guess that’s the sort of behaviour limerents ideally should be avoiding, as intriguing as it is! Also, it’s the kind of thing naughty LOs specialise in! However, I like cheeky people in general. 😛
I know people are afraid of me sometimes because until recently I didn’t have very good command of non-verbal communication in the area of my face/eyes. It can be super-intimidating if I launch into a conversation, say, (or, worse, start offering unsolicited criticism!) and I haven’t first “paved the way” by making eye contact, smiling, waiting for a smile in response, etc.
I’ve got all these non-verbal communication things down pat now. Eye contact and smiling is almost instinctive. My acting chops are impressive. As someone on the spectrum, I act every day of my life just to fit in. I can “pass for normal”. But it wasn’t always the case…
Oddly enough, even though I didn’t always give people enough eye contact growing up, etc, people often ended up liking/respecting me anyway. I could never understand why this was so, until I realised that neurotypical folk LOVE LOVE LOVE to gossip! Apparently, I was the object of a lot of favourable gossip, for some weird reason, in school, especially amongst the teachers). I had a good reputation. I won the Christian character award two years in a row. On the other hand, one of the teachers who gave me the award also said I need to work on “relating well to others”. Mixed messages much? 😆
It’s odd how one can have terrible people skills and still be seen as a budding moral paragon? I’m not sure how that works exactly…
I suppose the kids who ended up being my friends in school were the kids who kept talking to me, even though I didn’t give them a lot of encouragement, although I always was listening, believe it or not. I didn’t really pick my friends. my friends more or less picked me. 😛
“My wife said that when she first met me I scared her. I asked why. She said that I was older, established, oozed confidence, that I knew what I wanted and I wanted her. She was 23, a year out of college and I was 32.”
It sounds like your wife liked your “intensity”, although she was originally a bit unnerved by it? I think that’s nice. It suggests there’s something attractive about what limerents bring to the romance table. (Probably loyalty/a heightened devotion to their partners in the courtship phase). 😛
“I haven’t met you face to face but I don’t think you are intimidating. First of all, I think you are a kind and decent person. I think there’s a vulnerability in your writing. And you are a deep thinker — trying to understand your place in the world and your interactions with other people.”
@Marcia.
That’s a sweet thing to say, and also very perceptive. Thank you. 😛
You’re right about the vulnerability thing. Somewhere deep inside me, maybe in the muscles of my chest, there’s what feels like trapped pain.
I wonder: do human beings store feelings of vulnerability in their chests? The middle of my chest feels tight even as I write this. Maybe that’s why I’m so big on hugs? When I hug another man, or even a woman, could I be connecting the most vulnerable part of my body with the most vulnerable part of his/her body? Is this why some people might be uncomfortable with hugging even close family members and/or spouses? (They don’t want to be reminded of their own buried feelings of vulnerability?)
The vulnerability can of course be largely explained away as a trivial limerent-y “fear of rejection”. And all limerents probably have this fear in common. It’s odd how the fear of rejection never really goes away, even as one gets older and a heck of a lot more confident…
However, not to worry. I’ve discovering that emotional vulnerability in myself is an asset I can exploit to foster connection with others. I.e. initially, as a younger man, I thought I had to get rid of all the vulnerability feelings and then I’d qualify as a “real man” and other males in my life would automatically accept me. I wouldn’t have to fear rejection anymore. Reality doesn’t work like that, unfortunately. Other men aren’t emotionless beings. Other men are often storing feelings of vulnerability in their chests too.
I’ve realised that if I “go first” and show my vulnerability, then other males – including straight males – suddenly feel free to show their vulnerable side. It’s like the tension goes out of the air. It’s weird, but it’s like my presence in a social gathering allows the other men to relax and stop acting so macho. If I lay down my armour/show my soft underbelly, other males follow suit. But it’s my job to “go first”. (Am I really the alpha?) I seem to be some kind of “emotional elder” in my family. People seem to be unconsciously looking to me for leadership.
But do you know who really loves seeing men get along well with other men? It’s women, and especially older women. I actually think women are very subtly aroused by male bonding, particularly if it’s one’s own husband or boyfriend who’s in on the bonding, and reaping some of the accolades. I guess we’ve evolved live in tribes, after all, and nuclear families are just a modern anomaly. 🤔
Feelings of goodwill between adult males unify the tribe, and underwrite survival of all members. Women can allow themselves to relax when the younger males are kept in line. I think senior women in the group, who are perfectly capable of assuming leadership positions themselves, secretly want a male in the group to “set the emotional tone”. Women don’t want to do all the work of holding a social organisation together. (And quite right, too).
For a long time, I thought being gay automatically excluded me from the tribe. But it seems like I might be situated much closer to the heart of “my tribe” than I ever thought possible… I seem to be the second highest-ranking male in my family after my father, heaven help me. I’m not ready for the responsibility yet. I never wanted the top job. Actually, that’s a lie – I always wanted the top job until I realised how dangerously close I am to getting it. Terrifying! 😉
Anthropology lesson over for today. 😛
Sammy,
You mentioned intensity in your post to LE. I would disagree, at least from my own experience. I think intensity freaks most people out. I have spent most of my life toning myself down. In romance, yes, but also in friendship or family relationships. I find that I usually want a lot more than other people do. I don’t mean that in terms of a physical relationship but in terms of, for a lack of a better description, “sharing and caring.” That may be why your vulnerability rings a bell with me. Most people don’t show that, or don’t display who they are. I have a family member who actually contacts me almost daily but never with anything more than the weather, work, tv shows. I have tried to go deeper and was told I’m too “dark” and “serious.” So we talk about what he wants to talk about … all the time, without even so much as a shred of understanding on his part about how that feels like crumbs to me, when it’d be nice to have the whole damn meal … at least every now and then. 🙂
“You’re right about the vulnerability thing. Somewhere deep inside me, maybe in the muscles of my chest, there’s what feels like trapped pain.”
Could be, yes.
” Is this why some people might be uncomfortable with hugging even close family members and/or spouses? (They don’t want to be reminded of their own buried feelings of vulnerability?)”
Possibly.
“I actually think women are very subtly aroused by male bonding, particularly if it’s one’s own husband or boyfriend who’s in on the bonding”
I don’t think it’s arousal. It’s a happiness for the male partner, an understanding that he needs to have a connection with other men who can tap into a part of his personality that she can’t. Also, watching male bonding is fascinating for women. Male bonding is so different than female bonding. I mean, SO different. 🙂
“secretly want a male in the group to “set the emotional tone”. Women don’t want to do all the work of holding a social organisation together.”
I think it’s an emotional labor. Women don’t’ want to do all of it. They are TIRED. 🙂 A woman works full time, she has children who need to be cared for, the husband expects her to be there emotionally, then she is usually the one who maintains/organizes the couple’s social life and ties with extended family … she’s TIRED! 🙂
Sammy,
“INTJs are usually difficult to get to know well, and difficult to get close to. Those who are close to the INTJ will highly value them for their ideas and knowledge. Although INTJs are generally very serious-minded people, they also have been known to enjoy letting loose and having fun, if others pull them into it. They also can be really good at telling jokes, and exhibiting a sarcastic wit with a poker face.
The INTJ is not likely to choose to spend time with people who they feel don’t have anything to offer the INTJ. They especially like to spend time with other Intuitive Thinkers, and also usually enjoy the company of Intuitive Feelers. These personality types love to theorize and speculate about ideas, and so can usually relate well to the INTJ, who loves to analyze ideas.
Many INTJs believe that they are always right. In some INTJs, this belief is quite obvious, while in others it is more subtle. Some people may have a difficult time accepting what they see as a “superior attitude” or “snobbery”. Not to imply that INTJs are snobbish, just that some people with strong Feeling preferences may perceive them that way. And some individuals simply have no interest in the theoretical pursuits which the INTJ enjoys.” – https://www.personalitypage.com/html/INTJ_rel.html
It sounds like you.
This is mine:
“The ENTJ thoroughly enjoys lively, intellectual conversations – welcoming such interaction as a learning opportunity for all parties involved. They have a tendency to be direct and challenging when interacting with others, which tends to put people on the defensive. This is in fact exactly what they’re after – the ENTJ wants to learn what you know, and understand as many of the nuances of your knowledge as the context of the conversation will allow. They go after this knowledge in a very direct, confrontational manner. With this approach, they will learn not only the facts of the knowledge, but also the background of the individual’s stance on that piece of knowledge. How well does the individual understand the topic? How invested is the individual in their stance? This method of “unsettling” people has the effect of livening up conversations and stimulating learning, when the other conversationalists are able to easily withstand the interrogations of the ENTJ. People who are uncomfortable with being challenged, or who are less than confident in the topic being discussed, are likely to be subdued into not expressing themselves with the ENTJ. This is a bit of a shame, since many people have valuable things to offer, but are not always willing to stand on top of a mountain and strongly shout their views to the world.” – https://www.personalitypage.com/html/ENTJ_rel.html
In a previous life, I was conducting a fact-finding into an event we had. One of our NCIS agents sat in it. After it was over, he asked me where I’d learned to interrogate people since that’s what I’d been doing. I told him I never had any training on it. He said I was good at it and said he could make me better. I spent some time with him learning interrogation techniques and written statement analysis. It was really interesting.
When I went to war with LO #4 for stonewalling me, I reread this and our correspondence. I had been interrogating her. I wanted to see if I could knock her off balance. From the way we had communicated, I thought she liked my directness. It was not the right way to communicate with her. I don’t know if she was used to someone being that direct with her or I was just too intense. I sent her that quote and told her I’d back off. In her goodbye, one of the things she brought up was my “…angry emails when you felt dismissed or ignored.” The she said, “I don’t like how that feels.” But, she didn’t elaborate on the precise reason.
As one of my sub CO’s told me:
“There’s a fine line between assertive and obnoxious. You, Mr. LE, are frequently on the wrong side of that line.”
Life is interesting.
Lots of interesting stuff there Sammy. It’s been a year (probably this week I think) since I last saw my most recent LO, and it has just dawned on me that only now am I starting to move onto a genuinely post LE-recovery phase. Spotty episodes of LE still creep back. But they are rarer now and pass quickly.
But the main indicator is I’m feeling like I’m on the lookout again. Just a little, and not sure what I’m after. So I should probably take that as a sign not to go off and get into another mess.
But what you said about small and blisteringly bright versus bigger, duller, but ultimately ‘more’ … Really rings true. I think that limerence can become an addiction or a preference. I know that I want that head over heels out of control fantasy of deep mythical obsession… And I know that I can rustle that up for somebody quite normal, every day, nice enough. It won’t be planned, but I know it can happen, and I know that for me it leads nowhere. In the end, and I pay my due with 12-24 months of grief on the back of it each time.
But also, worship. Such a great word. Isn’t it sometimes just blissful to worship somebody? Even if you have to hide it? Obviously the answer in the long run is no… It’s not healthy. But to enter a state where you are in contact with a person whom you deem worthy of worship… In whatever context… Being worshipped is nice, but worshipping in the height of an LE can be pretty exquisite.
Just thoughts.
Yeah, nothing beats lying on the bed, losing all track of time staring at the ceiling until it gets dark, while physically aching for them.
Not that I ever did anything like that…
“Not that I ever did anything like that…”
@Limerent Emeritus.
Yeah, me neither… 😉
“I think that limerence can become an addiction or a preference. I know that I want that head over heels out of control fantasy of deep mythical obsession”
@Thomas.
I know what you mean, especially in regard to the mystical thing. Limerence can be hard to give up or renounce completely because it can seem like a defining feature of one’s personality. It’s just the way I am, etc. I like having crushes that feel kind of amazing or attributing superpowers to other humans, etc. I like floating around on a cloud of euphoria. 😛
“But also, worship. Such a great word. Isn’t it sometimes just blissful to worship somebody? Even if you have to hide it? Obviously the answer in the long run is no… It’s not healthy. But to enter a state where you are in contact with a person whom you deem worthy of worship… In whatever context… Being worshipped is nice, but worshipping in the height of an LE can be pretty exquisite.”
Haven’t thought about it in depth. But yes, worship … can be a beautiful feeling. That’s probably some of the emotional appeal of organised religion.
I actually think my religious upbringing might have primed me for limerent episodes as an adult in some ways. My religion encouraged (1) adoration of an all-powerful male saviour and (2) a very passive approach to life as one patiently waits for said saviour to drop by and fix everything.
One of the positives of recovery for me is I speak up now. When I’m out and about, for example, I’m much more likely to ask directly for the things I need, even if it’s just a second cup of coffee, or the correct meal in a restaurant. I’m not difficult or rude, just assertive in a respectful way.
Problem with limerence? I think we want our LOs to read our minds!! We want to go back to being infants and have Mummy/Daddy guess what we want until they finally get it right. We want to outsource our getting-needs-met to other people, who ideally should be devoted to our interests. 😛
“I can have a bright, shiny, tiny world or a less-bright, less-shiny, bigger world.”
I love this… what an great observation and analogy! So relatable and an apt way to compare limerence vs non.
I really enjoy fashion, and while I am instantly attracted to shiny blingy things, one gets quickly sick of them, whereas understated subtly beautiful items grow on you slowly and end up being forever-adored classics.
This to me is really similar to the concept of “The Glimmer.” I am really envious of people who are self-aware enough to know what causes them to be limerent for certain people and what type of people their LOs are. I have no idea why I became limerent for LO #1 and LO #2 specifically. They are very different people. One is considerably older than me (although she doesn’t look it). She is a mother, quite skinny, a smoker and she has auburn hair. There is a little bit of a “bad girl” vibe about her, which is actually quite exciting and appealing in many ways (although she is a decent person and quite successful and hard working with her own set of values and morals). The other is a curvaceous blonde, a few years younger than me, never married with no kids and a non-smoker. She is a Doris Day type, quite wholesome with girl-next-door appeal. One is a friend and one was a stranger. The only things they have in common are they both enjoy night life and rock music in some form, they are both single, they both seem fun-loving, they are both in blue collar type jobs (I am definitely white collar) and they have the same or similar ethnic backgrounds (which wasn’t evident in either case to begin with, so it’s just a coincidence). Obviously both are attractive women, but their appeal is very different. That doesn’t leave me much to go on.
So, why did I become obsessed with these ladies? As the post alludes to, I think it was what was going on in my marriage and my life. My marriage was and is deeply dissatisfying and so is my family life and job/career. Limerence for me was an escape. I am deeply envious of my friends who can date because I want out of my marriage (and I have communicated that to my wife numerous times, although I will NOT cheat on her). In the case of LO #2, I am both envious and jealous of her dating life.
I think just being part of the courtship ritual with LO #1 reminded me of what it was like to be single and dating. She was highly into a family member, not me, but I had front row seats to that courtship. LO #1 approached both of us, and it was a bit like she was chatting both of us up that night, not just my single family member. She was really looking for love that night (not just sex, but actual love). It felt to me like the vibes she was giving off bounced off of him and stuck to me.
With LO #2, I initially thought she was fairly attractive and fun, but I didn’t really notice her or give her much thought until she started to flirt with me. Almost all of the flirting she did was cloaked in plausible deniability, but it was pretty evident there was some flirtation. It could be my imagination, but it felt like she stopped flirting with me and started dating again right around the time one night when I mentioned another attractive woman I met in the bar we were in at the time. I could see a jealous look on her face, and since then I have seen that look on her most of the times I mentioned other attractive ladies. But she has been dating quite a bit, and she seems to delight in telling me how the guys she likes are the complete opposite of me and how she is engaging in casual sex with some of them. Still, she finds online dating dissatisfying, and we have become really close as friends, while my marriage continues to deteriorate. People often think we’re a couple even though we don’t engage in any physical affection.
So, I guess for me, the obsession or infatuation was the result of courtship behaviours of some description. I guess I really miss the whole dating scene. However, there were other times when women approached me or flirted with me and I didn’t become limerent for them. A very attractive lady even showed me definite interest (until she found out I’m married), but I never became limerent for her. I also don’t seem to go for one specific type. For that reason, I have a hard time spotting “The Glimmer.” I cannot say that I definitely become limerent for a certain type. Even going back to my teens and twenties, the girls/women I became limerent for or developed serious crushes on at the time were all very different.
“I have only ever become limerent for “damsels in distress”. Specifically, women who are bold and confident on the outside, but hiding an emotional wound within.” – DrL https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-best-cure-for-limerence/
“There is nothing so alluring as a damaged soul you’re sure you can fix.” – DrL https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-glimmer-givers/
He and I have similar tastes in LOs. It describes 3 of 4 of my LOs.
LO #2 was Eliza Doolittle to my Henry Higgins. I was going to transform her and from what she told me, I did. I don’t know how long it stuck. It turned out to be closer to me being Dr. Frankenstein and LO #4 being the monster but hey, things don’t always go according to plan.
The EAP counselor said I was trying to recue LO #4 and had been pretty much since I’d encountered her. The EAP counselor was probably right. She was Gene Hackman to my Danny Glover in “Bat 21.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=065ygnrssgw
The EAP counselor said it was a great analogy. She said where I’d been dealing with LO #4 from 500′, she pulled me on the ground with her and things unraveled.
Early on in my marriage, I made the mistake of treating my wife like a Pygmalion project. I acted like Professor Higgins to her Eliza Doolittle, but it was actually quite patronizing and offensive. I vowed never to do that to anyone again. In retrospect, however, I think our different backgrounds, education levels and worldviews should have been a warning signal to me. Frankly, it was even at the time, but I convinced myself I was being shallow and snobby, and that those things aren’t truly important. Part of the problem is she was a fairly naïve small town girl when I met her. She has since become much more worldly and sophisticated, but in the process she lost much of that sweet, small town charm she had when I met her (she had just moved to the big city at that time).
I know that trying to fix someone because you know what’s better for them than they do is arrogant and narcissistic. But, watching out for someone and helping them achieve their potential…well…that’s altruistic and noble. It also takes them longer to catch on, if they ever do. And, cognitive dissonance is a bitch so I needed a work around for that.
The EAP counselor said I had some of the best props of any client she had. There wasn’t an avenue we explored that I hadn’t covered. She blew the props away but I had them in place.
The thing was, I knew if I ever really changed them, either I’d lose interest in them or they’d lose interest in me. But, just like the Pygmalion of Greek mythology, I fell in love with the creations.
I waffled about approaching LO #4. I expected her to shut me down, tell me that it was none of my business, and to buzz off. But, she didn’t. She asked, “What do I telegraph to you?” I was reaching her.
The EAP counselor said my attitude was narcissism disguised as altruism.
Therapy can teach you a lot about yourself, much of which can be unflattering.
For sure. I like the idea that trying to help someone achieve their full potential is noble and helpful (and can often come from a place of love and compassion). Sometimes I gently correct my wife in private because I don’t want her to be ridiculed by others. I try to do it gently and compassionately, not to belittle her.
I think it depends on who the Henry Higgins is. Years ago, I worked at a theatre in administration and the artistic director was absolutely brilliant. Sometimes I’d sit in his acting classes, though I wasn’t an actor, just to hear the lecture. That guy could have “Pygmalioned” me all day long and I wouldn’t have been offended. But to me, if you are going to do that, you have to bring something above and beyond to the table.
“But to me, if you are going to do that, you have to bring something above and beyond to the table.”
LO #2 said she didn’t like me when we started dating. She said I was cocky and arrogant. I asked her why she kept going out with me.
She said. “You were relentlessly persistent and, at times, you can be irresistibly cute.”
My wife said I scared her when we started dating. I asked why? She said, I was older than the guys she’d dated. I was established and I was so self-confident. I knew what I wanted and I wanted her. I asked why she kept going out with me.
She said, “I liked it.”
Again, for me, if you are arrogant enough to think you can teach my something … it has to be something special. 🙂 You have figured out a Tina-Turner-like, Zen-Buddhist way to live. You have figured out how to get around the 9 to 5, corporate b.s. and have a lot of freedom in your life and can do what you want. Or you are flat-out brilliant in some artistic endeavor, like the artistic director.
Well, Marcia,
It works well on some people, it doesn’t work for squat on others.
It took me awhile, but I developed a pretty good idea of who’s worth taking on and who wasn’t.
Then, again, people can surprise you.
LE,
“It works well on some people, it doesn’t work for squat on others.”
Yes. What dings the bells of one person lands like a thud with others.
When reading Vicarious’ description of his LOs … reminds me of my last LO. I was white collar. He was blue collar. Office/factory.
It reminds me of a country song:
“All them other boys wanna wine you up and take you downtown
But you look like the kind that likes to take it way out”
I don’t want to be rescued and improved. I want to be brought down in the muck. 🙂
“Then, again, people can surprise you.”
Not often. What you get in the beginning is pretty much what you are going to get. People establish patterns.
“I know that trying to fix someone because you know what’s better for them than they do is arrogant and narcissistic. But, watching out for someone and helping them achieve their potential…well…that’s altruistic and noble.”
It is only altruistic if they believe they need it and they want it, and you gain nothing from it. Otherwise you are doing it for your own benefit not theirs which is the opposite.
Marcia,
“You have figured out how to get around the 9 to 5, corporate b.s. and have a lot of freedom in your life and can do what you want. Or you are flat-out brilliant in some artistic endeavor, like the artistic director.”
LO #4 has an ex that she’d probably be happy to refer you to. According to her, he’s a Narc with a capital “N.” She’s a PysD and she spent 7+ years with him so she should know. From what I saw back then, at least some of how she described him appears true.
But, it sounds like he fits your profile.
Allie1,
“It is only altruistic if they believe they need it and they want it, and you gain nothing from it. Otherwise you are doing it for your own benefit not theirs which is the opposite.”
Totally. Sometimes, they’ll even ask you.
When LO #2 asked for a meeting after my successor allegedly cheated on her, I asked if this relationship would ever be what I wanted it to be.
She said, “No, you should find some sweet young thing who adores you and not waste your time with a crusty old broad like me.”
I asked why she called me and why we were at the meeting? She said that I was still her best friend. I told her I wasn’t and that we’d had that discussion 6 months prior [we had]. I told LO #2 that there was nothing in that for me and I wasn’t going to pat her on the head, tell her that she was wonderful and put her back together so that she could do this to me again. I told her that I’d rebuilt her once and I wasn’t going to do it for another man.” She knew what I’d done for her.
I told that story to the EAP counselor. She got positively testy with me and said, “That was your Grandmother talking!” The EAP counselor knew about my relationship with my Grandmother but I have no idea where she pulled that from.
OT: As much as I liked the EAP counselor, every so often she’d come out with something off the wall. I told her that I could spot an unhappy woman a mile away. She locked eyes with me and said, “Not all of them.”
When she floated that one over the plate, it took everything I had not to swing for the left-field bleachers.
LE,
So someone figuring out to beat the system and live as they want means they’re a Narc? I don’t see the correlation at all. It just means he’s smarter than the rest of us.
“LO #4 has an ex that she’d probably be happy to refer you to.”
If fits my description and he has good hair, send him my way, although there’s already probably already a line of women trying to get at him, recognizing his uniquenss. 🙂
Marcia,
“If fits my description and he has good hair, send him my way, although there’s already probably already a line of women trying to get at him, recognizing his uniquenss.”
LO #4 got pretty chatty for awhile.
According to LO #4, there were other women. But, only one she could prove and the one that broke the camel’s back [wouldn’t stop the affair and allegedly physically assaulted LO #4] was his book publisher. He married said publisher within a year of LO #4 leaving him. That raised some interesting questions but LO #4 later described herself as the quintessential co-dependent which answered a few. He filed for divorce and, according to her FB page, she’s now in a relationship with another woman. LO #4 was scathing in what she said about her.
So, assuming LO #4 wasn’t lying about the affairs and assault, would you still want the referral? I’d be happy to give it to you. The problem is if I give you his identity, I give you LO #4’s and I won’t risk that.
I shouldn’t care but it’s like a Netflix series that gets your attention. They release all the episodes at once. You binge watch them and then you have to wait a long time for the next release.
But, this week the LO pendulum has swung back to the Indifference side. Eventually, it will likely swing back to Curiosity. It always seems to.
I think I may always have the swings but I’ve learned to ride them out. Limerence is still interesting but it’s no longer important. Score one for therapy!
So you’ve known ONE person who fits that description and thus all other people who do are jerks? Sounds like a STRETCH, no? Confirmation bias? I know people who live outside the box tend to elicit derision, suspicion and even envy in others. Whereas I think they are cause for mad celebration.
I was kidding about the introduction. Thus the smiling emoji. You engineers are so literal. 🙂
“You engineers are so literal. 🙂”
We can be. 🙂
You said you wanted adventure. I think he could provide it. I think he’s right up your alley. 🙂
He’s high profile, moves in interesting circles, drops the right names, lives in a primo location, money doesn’t seem to be an object for him [although LO #4 said he could be a real cheapskate], and travels widely. Age-wise, he’s in your zone (mid 50s) I’m sure his book sold more than hers did. LO #4 says he’s more flash than substance but considering where he is and where she is, one has to wonder how valid what she said about him was.
I think LO #4 enjoyed the status being with him afforded her. She was the younger consort of an apparently powerful man.
Oh, he does have nice hair. But, compared to me, almost everybody does. 🙂
LE,
“I think LO #4 enjoyed the status being with him afforded her. She was the younger consort of an apparently powerful man.”
That’s pretty much how it goes. A guy like that won’t want a woman his own age. A lot of middle-aged guys don’t, actually. It’s too bad. Women get more confident, particularly sexually confident, the older we get. 🙂
“Oh, he does have nice hair. But, compared to me, almost everybody does.”
Actually, I had a doctor who was completely bald. I found him very sexy. One day I was sitting in his office waiting for test results. Sitting in chair. He kneeled down in front of me to give me them. I’m not sure why he did that, but I couldn’t hear a word he was saying after that. 🙂
Marcia,
Their age disparity was only 8 years. The status differential decreases with age. I’m 9 years older than my wife. I’m 1.5 years younger than LO #2 and 14 years older than LO #4. Based on the timeline, she was in her late 30s when they got together.
When she told me the story of the end of the relationship, she said after the alleged assault, she dropped him off at the airport at the same terminal she encountered him in. She said the irony wasn’t lost on her. I would have liked to have known more about how they got together but I didn’t need to get in any deeper than I was and I didn’t pull that string.
A coworker met my wife at a company picnic before we were engaged. He asked me how old she was (23). He asked how old I was (32).
“You cradle robbing son-of-a-bitch.”
A hot 23yr old certainly made my stock go up.
Toss in that while dating, LO #2 was a professional asset to me. Naval officers are judged by their wives and girlfriends. One woman I took to a ship’s event turned out to be a train-wreck. The skipper asked me where the hell I found her. [She was a waitress at a local restaurant.]
My superior officers’ wives positively loved LO #2. One of the wives actively intervened with her husband, my XO, to get me a good deal. He said he’d been directed to do whatever it took to keep us happy. My family loved LO #2. My grandmother referred to my later fiancee as “that little blonde gold digger.” An aunt told me my grandmother was really upset when she learned LO #2 and I broke up. Oh, well….
By the time I met my wife, I was out of the Navy and the company I kept had no bearing on my career provided her behavior didn’t reflect poorly on my ability to retain my security clearance. As long she wasn’t a perceived threat to national security, who cares?
“That’s pretty much how it goes. A guy like that won’t want a woman his own age. A lot of middle-aged guys don’t, actually.”
I don’t know about that one. The one mid-life crisis that I got to watch from the sidelines was from a high-level executive of a large corporation and well-known in the community. His wife, who was a stay-at-home mom raising two daughters, came across as a frump. His paramour was totally age-appropriate, held a high professional position, was well-known in the community, sat on museum boards, etc., and came across as pretty elegant. His mid-life crisis seemed as mostly him seeking justification for dumping his wife for a woman “more befitting his station.”
For him, a much younger paramour wouldn’t have not only played well for him, it would have played worse. He came across as totally superficial but on the surface, he was trading up.
LE,
“A hot 23yr old certainly made my stock go up.”
Someday maybe men can feel what it’s like to only be valued for their youth. I think more than beauty, it’s youth that attracts men.
“For him, a much younger paramour wouldn’t have not only played well for him, it would have played worse.”
You don’t pick a paramour because they play well for you. You pick a paramour because they create a ding in your drawers. That is the ONLY reason to pick one. What a boring affair that must have been. 🙂
Marcia,
“You don’t pick a paramour because they play well for you. You pick a paramour because they create a ding in your drawers. That is the ONLY reason to pick one. What a boring affair that must have been. 🙂”
He didn’t share that end of things with our church mens’ group.
But, he married her.
Marcia,
“I think more than beauty, it’s youth that attracts men.”
Not all of us. LO #2 is older than I am. My XPLO Dental Hygenist is older than I am.
What attracted me to LO #4 was her gorgeous auburn hair and a chest you could land a helicopter on.
What attracted me to my wife when I saw her walk across the dance floor was a similar chest and legs that could have inspired the ZZ Top song. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUDcTLaWJuo
Le,
Yeah but you were still attracted to appearance. So no different than youth, really.
What attracted me to my last LO? Idk. It wasn’t his looks and I was limerent at first site. Looks and/or youth don’t ding my drawers like they do a majority of “your people.” 🙂
Marcia,
This one’s for you!
It’s not Metal but maybe you can coax VL of his barstool for this one!
“Ring My Bell” – Anita Ward (1979)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaBLlkqx7eU
I don’t need a directory to disco. I have plenty of it in my own music catalogue. I need you to argue with me and tell me what I’m writing isn’t true. But you can’t, can you?
“It’s not Metal but maybe you can coax VL of his barstool for this one!” LOL!
@Marcia, with all due respect, you are kind of engaging in the “no true Scotsman” fallacy here. First you say it’s all about youth for men, then when LE mentions that he has found older women attractive you move the goalposts and say it’s all about looks. The truth is I can totally appreciate the appeal of older women too (including my LO). Older women exude a certain confidence and maturity, and they often know what they want. This can be very attractive for many men.
I believe that some level of physical attraction is table stakes for most people, whether male or female, straight or gay. Sure, attraction can build based on personality, tone of voice, body language, mannerisms, flirtation, etc., but I think both men and women generally go for people they are attracted to at least on some level. Even as a man, sex appeal for me is often about more than just looks, but there has to be at least some physical attraction.
There is definitely some evidence to suggest that men are more visual than women. Biologically, men are also attracted to youth. This has a lot to do with fertility (even if we have no desire to procreate, the fixation on youth has some basis in biology and the innate desire to reproduce). I have also read numerous articles that lament the fact that a lot of middle aged men simply refuse to date women their own age. For sure, this is a real problem. I roll my eyes at idiotic (older) men who say things like, “Women over 40 are a waste of time.” Nonsense! I know at least two gorgeous women in their 60s who are incredibly fun, fit and active, and I have already mentioned the appeal many women have in their 40s, 50s and beyond. But you have to understand that there are plenty men who think like LE and I do. We’re not all chasing after 20-somethings, believe me!
Vicarious,
You’re right. I did move the goalposts. I sometimes post comments while I’m at work, and I am being heavily monitored by the powers that be so I have to read the responses and post quickly.
So maybe it isn’t only about youth for some men, but I still think it is then probably about beauty, and the initial trigger for physical attraction for men is appearance, which makes me sad. I was just reading an article about Eleanor Roosevelt, one of the most accomplished and intelligent women in history, who was constantly told when she was young that she was an ugly duckling and would never be a great beauty like the rest of the women in her family. She said she was craving attention she knew she would never be able to get. Can you imagine internalizing your value like that as a young woman?
Women are told to “give a guy a chance” or are willing to “give a guy a chance,” particularly if he has status and money, both of which he has some control over and he can acquire even as he ages. These things will attract maybe not all but a lot of women. And yet women are still primarily noticed and desired for their appearance (we can argue beauty or youth; it doesn’t really matter), and there’s nothing you can do about your age and only so much you can do about your beauty.
Marcia,
“I need you to argue with me and tell me what I’m writing isn’t true. But you can’t, can you?”
I could take a shot at it but you don’t appear to want to be swayed and…
There’s nothing in it for me.
I’ve been reading your stories in the comments and it seems like you might be the only folk that can understand what I’m facing. I have had the same LO for 17 years. I had an emotional affair with a married man when I was a teenager and was utterly mad for him but he was even moreso for me. I broke both our hearts because he was acting in a way that I thought would get him in heaps of trouble. I told him I didn’t love him then pined for him for years, saw him again and was brutally rejected by him with his friends help because they all believed the lie I had told. I convinced myself that the whole thing was a delusion I made up to think someone cared and genuinely blocked it out. I remembered this past life half way through the pursuit of a professional goal. My subconscious has brought me back to him and now my career is dependant on the very people who humiliated me all those years ago. We’re both married now and I have a young child. My husband has been cold to me for years and I thought I could handle the indifference but now since remembering what LO and I were like and starting to accidentally reenact it he’s all I can think about and I just don’t know what to do. I know he still wants me but I don’t know for what. I feel like I never let him go before I just lied to myself and I don’t know how to get over this man- it’s been so long. I feel like I never had free will to begin with, like my mind has tricked me all along. Please I would appreciate any insight.
Hi Deva, and welcome. Sorry to hear what you are going through. There are a couple of posts that might help clarify your situation:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/what-to-do-if-you-are-married-but-limerent-for-someone-else/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/why-cant-i-get-over-my-first-love/
The other resource to consider is the private discussion forum (click on the Community pages link in the top right menu). I suspect people will have questions about the details of your situation, which might be better handled there than in an open comment thread.
Hope that helps…
Will you please just remove my comments? Please- just a bad day I don’t want to share any of this anymore.
VL,
“Sure, attraction can build based on personality, tone of voice, body language, mannerisms, flirtation, etc., but I think both men and women generally go for people they are attracted to at least on some level. ”
There’s a great line in this Thought Catalog article: “On the other hand, men tend to be drawn to women who look good. He was first attracted to her because she had sex appeal but as he got to know her more and more—she became beautiful.” – https://thoughtcatalog.com/christopher-lai/2015/12/can-a-man-and-a-woman-really-have-a-platonic-relationship/
That’s kind of what happened with LO #4. I thought she was attractive but the initial attraction was based on that she liked what I had to say and responded to it. As time went on, the more she revealed about herself, the more I wanted to know. The more I learned, the more attached I became to her. I shouldn’t have but I did.
As for “Women over 40 are a waste of time.” There’s a more subtle possible reason for that. It’s rooted Attachment Theory.
As we age, the number of potential candidates decreases. People with a stable attachment will likely eventually attach to other people with a stable attachment style. That leaves a higher percentage of Anxious and Avoidant candidates. It seems reasonable to assume that the older a person is, the stronger their Attachment style is. It’s an assumption but it makes sense.
It may not be that a man who would say ““Women over 40 are a waste of time” is hung up on beauty, youth, or status. It may be that he’s looking for someone with a more stable attachment style.
There’s a label for people who take on needy whack jobs – co-dependent. LO #4 turned me on this video. https://www.theonion.com/damaged-women-stage-drunken-2-a-m-march-on-washington-1819594987 LO #4 had a delightfully snarky sense of humor.
I find a confident woman who’s comfortable in her own skin very appealing. In my mind, if a woman like that invites me into her sphere, it’s because she wants to. She chooses to include me. I like that. I don’t like being needed. I like being wanted.
And, it applies to women who say, “All the good ones are taken.” When viewed from the perspective of Attachment Theory and age, depending on the size of any given candidate pool, that could be very accurate.
There probably are a lot of people who never heard of Attachment Theory and fewer that have put any thought into how it affects their lives. But, it does.
Interesting, you are onto something there re “Women over 40 are a waste of time”….
The research I read suggests that happy people tend to have better, more stable and longer relationships. By “happy” I mean someone with a happier baseline state of mind, not necessarily someone that is always outwardly cheery or has an easy life. I am sure attachment style is a part of that, but it is healthy mental habits in general that are the key. Which comes naturally to some, but can also be learned.
Happy people feel good to hang out with, tend to be more self-assured and are often healthier. All of which makes them more attractive I think.
So agree, it makes sense that singles over 40 are generally less attractive when you look at it that way.
I have to admit that I don’t know much about attachment theory. I’ve taken a grand total of one psychology course in my life (at a community college, primarily just for interest). It could be that you have a good point about this, but there definitely is a bit of a gap in my knowledge when it comes to this topic. Women often say about men that “all the good ones are taken.” Maybe there is some truth to that statement about women too (although I think there are far more quality single ladies out there than single men, but that could just be my bias because I’m a man and I know what a tough time my single female friends are having meeting a man).
I hate stereotypes, I really do, but I also think the “women over 40 are a waste of time” stereotype is exactly the opposite of what I’ve found. This is a huge generalization (and I apologize to any younger women out there who may be offended by this), but I found that women in their 20s were often looking for bad boys, while women became ridiculously picky once they got to their 30s and started believing they should be treated like a fairytale princess and be swept off their feet by a Prince Charming type character. But once women hit their 40s, I find they are much more pragmatic and reasonable, understanding that bad boys aren’t going to do it for them, while also understanding that Prince Charming is a fairytale. I find that women in their 40s, 50s and beyond are much more secure and confident, and they’re much more likely to make the first move (which I love). They know what they want and they aren’t afraid to go out and get it, but at the same time they are realistic and understand that everyone has their flaws. They aren’t perfect but neither are the men in their dating pool.
A friend of mine divorced his wife a few years ago. Suddenly he was single for the first time in many years. He couldn’t believe the opportunities that were out there for him and how women even started throwing themselves at him. When I told him about some of my marital woes he said to me, “I’m not trying to encourage you, but I have to say, women this age are AMAZING. I don’t know what it is with them, but you would be able to meet lots of women!”
My wife’s LO AP,dumped her for the last time in Sept 2020,15 months ago,she was absolutely devastated,it was All going in over a period of 8 months,but first dumping was 3 weeks after it all began,then we had been together for 23 years,yet she didn’t care,,,this 3 weeks absolutely devastated her ???? 4 months after I found out,she moved out,spent 2 months pursuing him,,,he relented two months later,so was really only a PA for the last two months,,Again she was devastated.periodically sent him landmark texts 3+6 months,that were unanswered.
In that time she shifted her limerence to a friendship with a gay Drag queen/Hairdresser,,and has been obsessed with him,his associates and lifestyle,,,they had been inseparable,every chance every excuse to go to his house and or salon,and to stay out for hours,when out she gushes over him,any friends visiting,,she pushes them to see him singing and has to get them to see how wonderful he is,and kind of rams him down their throat,,,,they of course don’t see what she sees,don’t understand the obsession or attract of why she would be wanting to be spending every available hour ,and it’s been awkward.
He has been a bit of an ally,as he is the only one she will listen to,and if he thinks she is being out of order the way she in MLC is treating me,he has pulled her up for her behaviour…I’m hoping the limerence for him is going to slow down a bit,as it’s been quite some time now.
Will I have to live with this forever? None of my 5 LO’s have reciprocated to me, I’m honestly tired of this, don’t want to live this way.
There is someone obsessed with me he is a total psycho and this has been going on for years he is completely innappropriate and tries to hurt me. The sad thing is if he would of been mature and talked to me about his like for me maybe we could of instead he’s a psycho who tries to hurt me any chance he gets he even interferes in my work and personal life making up lies it’s disturbing and I may end up dead it’s not going away and he’s becoming worse seemingly it’s scary