Following on from last week’s case study, and discussions of infidelity and polyamory in the comments, here’s an interesting video about jealousy.
I’ve often wondered about the interactions between limerence and jealousy. At one level it seems simple – you desire your limerent object more than anything else in the world so obviously you would be jealous of possible mate poaching. But David Buss makes the case in the video that even mismatches in “market value” can be a cause of jealousy, independently of whether there are any actual competitors on the scene.
It’s striking that the discussion of relationships in evolutionary psychology is usually grounded in this economic analogy. It makes sense from a gene-centric view of evolution, and it has plenty of statistical support in population data, but it’s a difficult principle to apply to limerence.
For limerents, LO has basically limitless market value. The strength of desire is not anchored to any objective measures of attractiveness – we literally flip out for the other person regardless of their “ranking”. I hear from many limerents who admit they can’t explain why they find their LO so intoxicating. They admit that LO is objectively less beautiful, successful, entertaining or accomplished than their significant other, but they still crave them with a consuming passion.
I’m not sure what this means for limerent jealousy. It would suggest that limerents would be especially prone to jealousy, as their LO has to be “out of their league” by definition, if their value is infinite.
Maybe the calculus of mating breaks down for limerence. It’s an idea I’ve flirted with before, where limerence is the equivalent of a peacock’s tail – broadcasting that the limerent is so conspicuously, irrationally besotted that there is no danger of them straying, and no need for vigilance about threats to the bond from higher-status competitors. If LO was interested in forming a bond, there would be little need to feel jealousy about someone who was so smitten.
Or maybe I’m totally wrong, and in fact we only feel the glimmer for people after we’ve done a quick unconscious economic calculation of their mate value.
Or maybe jealousy worsens as we fall deeper and deeper into limerence, as a sign of increasing esteem for them, so it can be used as a barometer of limerent intensity.
Or, because jealousy comes from uncertainty, we’re more likely to become limerent for people who cause us insecurity about our own desirability.
Thoughts provoked, but no answers yet.
Great post, as usual!!!
“You desire your limerent object more than anything else in the world so obviously you would be jealous of possible mate poaching.”
Yep, my now LO , was my SO long time ago. I literally flipped out for this person regardless of his ranking! He had great charisma, was handsome and treated me like a real princess. Very admirable person, a real gentleman. But, the minute I perceived he distanced a little bit, (he has moved to another job, previously we worked together) I couldn’t stand the ‘THOUGHT ‘ of LO having his eyes on some else. There was not actual competitor in the scene. I wasn’t jealous before, but the thought only of LO abandoning me for some else, was so treacherous in my mind that I literally ran away from the relationship! I thought I would not be able to survive a blow like that! Never questioned him, but I was scared of that love intensity I had for him, thought it was not healthy for my well being, thought it was sickening!!! I had to avoid it at all cost before I might collapse on account of it.
Strange, but it never crossed my mind that I was not desirable for him anymore, just that we needed to move to another level in our lives. It was that age where you’re experimenting with different things… your mind is more set in your career than love adventures.
LO has a SO, so do I, but I do not lose my sleep to know how she looks like, never seen her or any of LO ‘s previous lovers to compare myself with . Though I’m a curious; but ‘what you don’t see don’t bother you.’ It’s enough dealing with the LE to worry about someone else’s appearances. For sure, knowing myself very well on this respect, I’d not tolerate sharing LO or SO with no one else, not even a lusty glance!!! Is that extreme jealousy?
Have a great blessed weekend you all beautiful limerents!
Oooh I love how complicated this is 🤓
In my own experience the glimmer for LO happened immediately on first eye contact. So there was no estimation of economic value. He was not interested in a long term relationship with anyone and was pretty slutty for want of a better word! I wasn’t interested in being a notch in his belt. I wanted the full emotional connection.
Oddly I never was jealous except of one other woman. Perhaps because I knew her and I could tell myself he wouldn’t choose me because she was more beautiful and he was too superficial to appreciate me. Otherwise, I was always nothing but happy for him. I met one of his long-term girlfriends and I loved her because he stopped flirting with me when he was with her and treated me like a human being. I could finally get to know what was beneath that superficial BS.
He was clearly jealous of my relationships. I still have those conversations in writing and when I read them now it’s obvious how he felt. I don’t know why it never occurred to me that his comments attacking me and my boyfriend-at-the-time were fueled by jealousy. He otherwise never spoke to me like that.
I think that I’ve always had self worth but I haven’t had faith that others could appreciate everything I have to offer. People see a part of me and extrapolate that to make it all of me. They see what they want to see. Oddly, with him, I felt like he had the capacity to see all of me but it only happened once we’d returned to our respective countries and our communication was entirely online. So I don’t think it was exactly insecurity on my part so much as a lack of faith in him. Maybe that’s why I didn’t ever really feel jealous 🤷♀️
Call me Cordelia, you’re back!!!!
We missed you here. Hope everything is well with you. Hugs.
I second that!!
Cordelia is the best Cheerleader!! 😉🤗😂
Thanks, Nisor and MJ 🥰
I lurk from time to time ☺️
Mostly I’m just doing my best to live purposefully which doesn’t leave much time for reading blogs! Trying very hard to navigate interactions with guys at the new gym without things exploding. I was triggered by some very intense behavior by one guy a few weeks after joining. Im still trying to navigate that. I don’t think he meant to overstep. I’m still reeling from the last experience and clearly not ready for anyone getting in my space or asking direct questions about my relationship status 😔 but I messaged him directly and told him he might want to wind back on the intensity and personal questions in that kind of environment. It’s a really small gym so it becomes like family. I couldn’t understand why he seemed in such a hurry to approach me rather than just get to know me a bit first 🤷♀️ it’s like a workplace. You’d be foolish to do that to a colleague after only meeting them a couple of times!
I don’t know what his intentions were. We have great chemistry but I don’t think we’re compatible at all so his intentions are irrelevant really. I’m just trying to figure out how to keep it friendly because the classes are small and I’m not quitting this gym. I always feel like it’s my fault but I had barely said a word to this guy when he approached me (I’ve got to know him better since and he does seem to be a decent guy but I can definitely feel that desperation to be loved oozing out of him) and as my psychologist pointed out ‘how many people have ever had to tell you that you made them uncomfortable? It’s on them!’
I hope both of you are doing OK. I’ve read a few of your posts recently and it seems not much has changed…?
❤️
I think I was my SO’s LO. I never experienced jealousy with him as I felt incredibly secure. Our so called “mate value” changed over time (as in mine decreased and his increased, along gendered lines that evolutionary psychology adheres to – youth for women, resources for men) but it never reached the point where I felt the fear necessary for jealousy. (I sometimes think it is one’s perception of mate value rather than actual mate value that matters – so the self- esteem of the perceiver matters.) With my LO I felt little jealousy over what I saw as his “appropriate” choices. But I was interested that when he chose to crush on “inappropriate” people, especially when they had the same factor of inappropriateness between me and LO, I did experience jealousy. I remember reading that a necessary ingredient for envy was that the person you compare yourself to has to be “on par” with you in some way. Which means it is more a reflection of oneself and ego. It could be that for limerence, which is more about our own vulnerabilities and less about LO’s mate value, jealousy functions more like envy. You are not so much threatened by loss of a mate as threatened by an attack on your ego or self-concept. Thoughts?
Jealousy was a common trait of LE 1 and 2 and now even current LE 3.
With LE 2, we dated for 3 years and during that time I remember feeling jealous on a number of occasions. Jealous of her ex boyfriend at times, jealous of her meeting other guys, and the jealous of her dating other guys after we broke up.
With my current LO, I also get waves of jealousy. She is married and I get jealous at times of her SO. This has caused me to resent him quite a bit. I don’t like it when she brings him up in conversation and I never ask her anything that might make her mention him. I also get waves of paranoid jealousy of her having someone else as an LO and her pursuing him the way I wish she would pursue me. My rational brain knows this is highly unlikely but my emotions still get that pit in stomach feeling if I think about it.
The reason why I find LO so incredibly gorgeous and intoxicating is because nobody with looks like hers, has ever given me eye contact like she has. It’s been the most bizarre experience I’ve ever had with the opposite sex. She is still so pedestaled in my book, that I’m finding it hard over a year later to find that same beauty in other Women. They just end up being compared to LO and then my interest in them basically withers.
As the over-the-top and insanely huge infatuation I have for LO, I can safely admit I’ve never struggled with being jealous of her “guy” friend. He is a guy that works in our company but in a department separate from me. He is older, has more seniority and seems very well established. I’m not sure if LO has ever mentioned me to him as I’ve caught him curiously looking my way upon passing and he’s had plenty of opportunity to say something to me in the parking lot, but nary a word from the guy. And my guess is thats because I’m not a threat. I don’t want to be a threat. To be honest, I’m not entirely sure if they are a couple or only just friends either. Someone like her must be with someone. Has to be. Yes I wish it was me.
What I’m saying though, is as much as I probably should be jealous of this guy, I’m simply not. I don’t even struggle with it. Infact, I’ve seen them at lunch together and I actually “would” rather see her with this guy, than a lot of the other guys I work with. I feel like they have a good vibe and of course, it would be my absolute life dream goal to be able to sit with her and talk like that. I just sit and admire her from a distance though.
I think thats also another bass ackwards reason for my hesitancy in moving things forward. I don’t want to get in the way of things with them and I don’t want it to ever become awkward between us. I feel like I would just complicate matters and at the same time, I know I still have to work with these people in some capacity. I guess I’m really trying to avoid drama. It’s definitely hard trying to reach a happy medium, but in a way, my work day is much easier now that she primarily works in a building separate from me.
MJ
How similar. She never introduced me to her gentleman friend despite numerous times he was present to visit her at the office and I was there too. Even in the same room as both of them. I took that as a sign and so never formally introduced myself to him.
Outside of him being considerably younger than me (and by looks younger than her) I never really felt jealousy either. My overprotective genes kicked in when I found out she was seeing someone but I never felt jealous. Our work relationship never changed from her being single to her seeing this man.
I did wonder if she thought I would be jealous. And that’s why she never introduced me to her gentleman friend. I would notice in conversation with other co-workers she would talk about him. But she never would one on one with me. I hope that wasn’t the case. Because as long as I know he cares for her and her daughters I have no beef with him. Even if I was single she would still be better off with him over anyone else. I just didn’t want to see her heart hurt again after her ex. And as long as he didn’t do that he won’t have to find out what little deterrent a life sentence is to someone my age. I was just glad to see her happy.
Adam,
A few months ago, I was in my car at lunchtime minding my own business and I saw LOs guy friend walking through the parking lot real slow. He was on his phone texting and walking toward her building. About a minute later she pulled up in her car and picked him up practically right in front of me. As she maneuverd her car to turn around, I know she saw me sitting there. She tried so hard not to back into my car. I was almost amused. Sometimes I think she/they planned it like that to make me jealous, but I don’t know. He’s still never confronted me and that’s fine. I’m getting too old for workplace drama anyway.
“nobody with looks like hers, has ever given me eye contact like she has”
When a very good looking “high value” person gives us attention, it isn’t only our desire to be desired that is triggered; it is our social standing. If someone that wonderful and good looking wants us, it must mean we are worth more! (this is consistent with the fact that most people date people of the same mate value as themselves). So, if we imagined it … it means deflating our self-worth, and that is just unpleasant. Our ego would resist. That is why we keep searching and searching for signs it was real. (message: I am still hot enough to attract the person at the top of the hierarchy (as I perceive it), I have worth)
Why mid-life is such a vulnerable time for limerence is because it is a point at which our social value takes a dip, we realize all the dreams we never lived up to, death looms. LO’s real or imagined attention is like a panacea to all that – and if they are younger, all the better. If I attract a young LO, I’m not out of the game yet! I’m not over the hill! (message: I am not too old and still relevant, I have worth)
This is in addition to other reasons people fall into limerence: “rescue complex” (message: I am still of use to someone, I have worth); neglectful spouse (message: I am still attractive to someone else, I have worth); childhood wounds (message: you are okay inner child, you have worth) … I think just about ANY reason we can give for falling into limerence has an underlying message of our WORTHINESS.
Purposeful living will give you a sense of worth that is independent of LO “giving” it to you with their love and attention. Ultimately, the latter is fool’s gold; only we can build our own sense of self-esteem and self-worth. Also, we need to accept aging. The truth of it. LO is not the magic pill we unconsciously imagine.
Replying to you Limmy, a lot of it too is while we hear of mid life crisis from others, (More so now with the internet than pre-internet times) we think of the common practices. Loosing weight, dying the gray away, dressing to grab attention, buying a sports car and yes even an affair.
But I think we all think we will handle it. That won’t be me. I don’t even care what kind of car I drive. I would never cheat on my spouse. We know we can handle the extreme things well. But much like Bukowski’s poem The Shoelace; “It’s the continuing series of small tragedies that send a man to the madhouse”. It’s those things that add up in limerence. Weight loss, extra attention to our appearance, either accepting our age proudly (outwardly) or trying to appear younger. It’s the small things that pile up and before we know it we are not ourselves. And not in a good way.
For me, my wife, outside her mental health issues, is self sufficient. Our 17 year old son is self sufficient. Our oldest is no longer living with us. I get less and less requests from him and due to his juggling college and a job he rarely comes home. While to a degree they are still dependent on me for financial support, I am not needed in a lot of ways that I was.
She did need someone. And appreciated the help. As you said, that gave me worth. Now once again I was needed. In a way that I had not felt needed in a while. She asked and thanked me for my help. Be it work related help or advice/listening ear. I met her daughter and talked to her and treated her as if she was my own biological daughter. (That’s the whole I never got my own babygirl thing.) She even remarked about the stark contrast in how I treated her daughter compared to her actual biological father did. That’s all kinds of worth I was feeling there.
I agree that we are suppose to get validation from within ourselves. Be confident in our own worth. But I have always judged myself on what I do for others. No matter the motivation, if I am needed and can provide for those I care about than I have worth. And when I have worth I have confidence and self-esteem of my own.
I think I am accepting my age. I haven’t and have no intention to dye my gray hair away lol
The Shoelace — Charles Bukowski
https://allpoetry.com/poem/14326889-The-Shoelace-by-Charles-Bukowski
Bonus: This song recently came up in my youtube suggestions and it could not describe me more.
Fix You — Fearless Soul
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsBNDryJYSs
Amen Sister! Wow, Limmy, you have a way with words.
Thank you, Limmy, wise words.
This thing about middle age and worthiness is very true.
Still, I think it‘s hard to say goodbye to the sort of „worthiness“ when a LO reciprocates, when you feel attractive and alive. I agree that it‘s the „wrong“ and unstable sense of worthiness. It still feels such a part of being alive, saying goodbye to it really feels like saying goodbye to being young.
Which is part of life and needs to be accepted, I guess.
I also am jealous ( maybe envious is a better term) of my LOs SO. She has been on the scene since the start, so I have to be quite accepting. Like Speedwagon, I try to prevent her presence being brought into our conversations, but it happens and it’s difficult for me but manageable.
A new young attractive coworker that I know well began working at my LOs office – this was much more jealousy inducing for me, as I’m in a different continent !
Interesting subject! I have never experienced sexual jealousy, despite being someone that loves powerfully and passionately. When in a relationship, I generally feel secure and loved. And that is regardless of perceived mate value differences.
However… I know for sure that if I saw another women sharing any form of connection/warmth/intimacy with my current LO, I would feel overwhelmed with jealousy! I do not consider LO to have a higher mate value so it is the uncertainty about his feelings for me that makes all the difference I think.
(I am not a fan of David Buss it must be said, his thinking is oftentimes flawed, he bases too many of his conclusions about human pre-history on his modern culture and (male) experiences.. he doesn’t understand women that’s for sure!)
I was jealous of LO1’s SO for a long time, not just because she got to be with him, but also because she seemed to lead a charmed life in general. This eventually faded as I grew more comfortable in my own life.
I’m a little bit jealous of LO2’s SO just because she gets to be with him, but not as much because he’s not giving her as good a life as she deserves.
If LO3 (current) ever did get an SO, I honestly think I would be happy for him. Maybe a little jealous too, but he seems on track to be alone for the rest of his life and it’s so sad, I would like him to find someone even if it isn’t me (although it would be better if it were me!).
I think I disagree with DrL on some of his positions.
Go back to limerence and attachment.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-and-emotional-attachment/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-and-anxious-attachment/
Couple that with what Shari Schreiber says:
“Restated, a lover who’s elusive, cruel, or just emotionally and/or physically unavailable can trigger painful sensations that replicate what the Caregiver experienced as a child, seeking a loving/responsive parent when he needed that attention. This emotionally inadequate, yet dramatically felt kind of episode functions as a powerful catalyst, that inspires a tenacious (and vaguely familiar) pursuit to seduce the object of desire into returning his attention and ardor.
Since the intense feelings that are invoked by such a relationship are compelling and addictive, any individual who awakens them, is presumed to be addictive as well.” – https://sharischreiber.com/do-you-love-to-be-needed/
My desire to rescue damsels in distress was rooted in a disordered attachment with my mother. I couldn’t save my mother but I might be able to save them.
Another person who comes between you and your limerent object is an obstacle. It’s a different obstacle than the limerent being already attached but it’s an obstacle none the less. An SO is an obstacle between your LO and you but your SO isn’t giving something you want to your SO.
There’s also a big difference between envy and jealousy.
https://languagetool.org/insights/post/word-choice-envy-jealousy/#:~:text=Although%20many%20people%20consider%20%E2%80%9Cenvy,or%20situation%20to%20someone%20else.%E2%80%9D
I was jealous of LO #1’s boyfriend. I told LO #4 that I would envy any many who could win her trust, attention, and affection.
If LO #4 liked it, I wanted to have it so she’d like me.
” but your LO isn’t giving something you want to your SO.”
LE,
““Restated, a lover who’s elusive, cruel, or just emotionally and/or physically unavailable can trigger painful sensations that replicate what the Caregiver experienced as a child, seeking a loving/responsive parent when he needed that attention. This emotionally inadequate, yet dramatically felt kind of episode functions as a powerful catalyst, that inspires a tenacious (and vaguely familiar) pursuit to seduce the object of desire into returning his attention and ardor.”
I was just reading something similar in a Psychology Today article. “Can Sexual Attraction Become Too Strong?”
“You can be too sexually attracted to someone. You can meet someone who unleashes the most elaborate sexual desire, but that person is probably not someone you should pursue, because the intensity of your sexual feelings likely comes from a primitive — and dysfunctional — set of feelings and beliefs. Most important, meeting someone and feeling too sexually attracted often indicates underlying idealization. Sexual attraction that is too intense from the very start often indicates a distorted belief that this new person will provide a sense of emotional completion, fulfilling long-simmering emotional needs that have previously gone unmet.”
I mean, it’s not as sexy or dramatic. But the best qualities to look for are consistency and reliability.
Someone who keeps you in the dark about their intentions/feelings or makes you feel like you are chasing their affection …. RUN. (And a good number of LOs fit this description.)
LE, Marcia,
I fits the description of “core-damaged” adult child although I do not see myself as a “caregiver” type. However, at the conscious level, I still feel the desire for a truly felt emotional reciprocation is much stronger than sexual desire that might primitively induced Glimmer initially.
Perhaps this volcanic sexual desire for LO is still subconscious, heavily repressed or even reversed to repulsion by the constantly social, cultural conditioning and non-reciprocation? Despite LO’s blurry face is still in my head and I chitchat with him cordially a couple of times a week, an imagination of a PA with him would give me a run-down chill inside….
Daydreams and reveries have all gone, and the reality looks bleak and gray — little ever occurred or has receded after such a long, lonesome time…. I guess this non-agitation stage of LE is as good as it goes…
So besides working little on trauma-inducing stories, I’ve just invested to take a piano class, which I wanted to do all my life but never believed my clumsy hands could do it. Well I don’t want to carry this untried dream to my graveyard, so I’m going to learn and practice piano just to please myself, for a purposeful fun!
Snowphoenix,
I’m not a Cargegiver type, either, but I definitely felt I was trying to regain the attention of my elusive LO, who alternately pursued and then pulled back. A horrible pattern. Which of course was perfectly fine with him. He was getting what he wanted.
Of course, the problem is that someone who is dependable and reliable and consistent doesn’t produce such powerful emotions. Ironic, no? So does the limerent fall in love with suffering? Probably.
“I guess this non-agitation stage of LE is as good as it goes…”
I think you can get to a point where the LE is totally over.
And I wanted to be the caregiver. Like I am with most every woman in my life. No matter what kind of relationship it is. So I guess if I do want to admit to being human I didn’t like that he took that from me. It wasn’t even their relationship I was jealous of. It was that he took that role from me for her and her daughters. If I am going to be jealous of anything it would be that. I dunno why I do that…
Marcia,
I think Limerence is a much larger sized OCD that drives limerents to chase a stubborn dream, which limerents subconsciously believe, through the vivid fantasies or magical imaginations (acquired in childhood in my case), that could correct and heal the sufferings endured in childhood from one or both caregivers.
I know my imaginations are automatic, vivid, and powerful; my mind chose to believe them so as to soothe (un)conscious, consistent sufferings (stored in trauma-altered brain and the entire psychophysiologic system), while simultaneously clearly aware the indifferent, cruel reality. It’s not that limerent fall in love with sufferings, but with something we believe could elevate or cure those sufferings.
Something mysterious in LO, resembling our Narc, selfish, or insecure parent, triggered us to intuitively believe somehow they hold this magical “something” (their sexual attraction to us at genomic level?) to cure our aged wounds, while they’re the ONE who actually reenacts our dysfunctional parent, thus awakens our trauma-demon, repeats and worsens our core-injuries.
Through this astronomical limerence, I’ve finally, painfully learned so much about my Self… regretting all the lost, precious time and energy 😞. I need to transfer this swollen OCD to a new hobby or purposeful aim.
I think you’re right that one day LE will be completely gone, but it will take some time, it’s only 20 days since 10/16 when my Unconscious suddenly struck. Normal logical treatments do not work with my system… I was intuitively rebellious since 5 or 6.
snowphoenix,
“Something mysterious in LO, resembling our Narc, selfish, or insecure parent, triggered us to intuitively believe somehow they hold this magical “something” (their sexual attraction to us at genomic level?) to cure our aged wounds, while they’re the ONE who actually reenacts our dysfunctional parent, thus awakens our trauma-demon, repeats and worsens our core-injuries.”
Yes, exactly. If someone has a history of abuse or neglect, the people they are powerfully drawn to are probably very, very wrong for them. It pains me to write that. It sucks. Seems totally unfair. So pick Mr. Broccoli! Once you’re healed, maybe you can put a little butter on it. But no brownies! Nothing you want to eat! 🙂
“regretting all the lost, precious time and energy 😞. I need to transfer this swollen OCD to a new hobby or purposeful aim”
Yes, I totally agree. So much wasted time and energy over …nothing.
Hi Snow,
“Something mysterious in LO, resembling our Narc, selfish, or insecure parent…etc”
Very well said !
And the magic wand! Oh did I got bewitch by that magic wand with LO! In trying to figure out why I got so attached to Lo, and thought he is the ultimate partner for me, the one and only, no one else holds such a magic feeling that he does, I realized he has a lot of characteristics as my father! His constant smile, his soft spoken words, the coolness, and unruffled demeanor, the deep looking glance , making you comfortable at his side, his kind temper… yet strong, and many others things that resembled my dad.
I had a very strong sexual attachment toward LO. When we first met it was as if had known him forever. My dad had great charisma and was elegant, but I barely saw him , he was always away from home for work. I missed his protection as a father, never had time to experience a conversation or share with him my inner thoughts, etc. There was lack of communication.
That’s why when LO, who was my SO then, when he moved to another job (we worked together ), I felt a great sense of abandonment, I could not express to him my feelings of loneliness, so I took off, the same thing I did with my father, I took off, moved to another country, as soon as I was of age, even if I disappointed him. I knew I had to let go of that dream of dad ever fulfilling my needs. Exactly the same situation with LO. It took courage and hurt, but I knew I had to do detach on both occasions. I chose a complete different SO for my long term
relationship . Exactly the opposite! He’s caring, gives me strength, is always there for me. He’s loud and active, adventurous, very positive, protective, I don’t have that awful feeling of abandonment with SO. I feel secure and loved! Thanks God!
I’m so glad you’re taking piano lessons ! . I’m cheering for you !!! I’ll be after you from now on to encourage you in this new adventure. To be successful!
My daughter is a pianist, her master is in music / piano and composer. But she’s not involved in music anymore. She chose to study computers and statistics, business management etc. And is very successful in her career. It was my dream to be a violinist or pianist but I never pursued it seriously. Well, the opportunities were not so available then. Next life…
Have a great week. Hugs.
Hi Nisor,
You see, it’s wise of you to “flee” from your Dad and LO; otherwise, you’d never to have met your current SD. Lucky you and cherish it!
Thank you for your encouragement for my taking a new, infinitely beautiful and challenging LO — piano. I have no intention to become a pianist, but the learning itself is fulfilling. I’ll devote my passion and effort to make her express my emotions and uplift my spirit.
Have a great week!
Hugs.
For years, I’ve felt a twinge when I see LO’s SO. He was a crush then. But it’s gotten worse since the glimmer and LE started six months ago, when he started flirting much more heavily with me. Now just seeing her picture can send me into a depression pit. We recently had a church event where I stayed home specifically because he’d probably be there with her, and I couldn’t trust myself to stay out of the pit, even with my own SO there with me. I guess it’s just as well, because COVID spread at the event and we weren’t vaccinated yet. But I hope I can get back to where I just feel a twinge but am otherwise okay when I see her.
I feel tremendous jealousy towards my LO’s SO. This is not a feeling I’m proud of but it’s very true. I have to admit that I like it when she talks negatively about him, and especially when she compares me positively to him, when she talks about how good I am to her, how I make her feel happier and safer and more loved and appreciated than he does. She’s gotten pretty guarded these days and doesn’t talk that way very often any more, not like she used to, but she still does it from time to time, and I can’t lie, it feels great when she does. On the other hand when she mentions her and her SO doing fun activities together or having meaningful conversations together, I feel really jealous. The handful of times she’s alluded to having sex with him I felt physically ill.
I know she’s still in love with him and devoted to him despite everything that’s happened between them, and I suspect that their relationship isn’t as uniformly bad or unsatisfactory as she made it seem when she and I were first getting close. I feel like I should be happy for her when she has good moments with him, because I do want her to be happy and for better or worse she’s bonded to him and likely will be with him long term, and when they’re getting along she’s happier. Plus I’m not actually in competition with him, because my goal is NOT to blow up both of our marriages to actually be with her. But my selfish side just wants to hear her tell me how cold and distant and uncaring he is and how I’m so much better to her and make her happier. It’s like I want her to be miserable with him so she’ll love me more even though she can’t have me. It’s stupid and selfish. It’s a pathology I have and I hate it but I can’t seem to shake it.
The funny thing is that it’s really easy for me to view her love as a zero sum game, like I start to feel that any evidence that she loves him is evidence that she doesn’t actually love me and never did. That’s the thinking I fall into when I’m feeling jealous. While at the same time, I feel like I can love my LO and my SO very much at the same time and my love for either of them doesn’t diminish my love for the other. Hypocritical, no? I can spend a wonderful evening hanging out with my SO and have deep meaningful conversations with her and make tender love with her and lie in bed holding her feeling nothing but warmth and love for her, while also lying there thinking about LO and how much I love her too and can’t wait to see her tomorrow. And yet if LO tells me about spending a few hours doing something enjoyable with her SO, I feel like that means she only loves him and can’t have any love for me. That doesn’t make any sense, but then again none of this does.
Which is true? Am I lying to myself that I can love SO and also love LO, and in reality it’s only possible to truly love one person at a time? Or is it totally possible that LO loves me and loves her SO too and it’s just my jealousy that makes me unable to believe that?
Bigger picture is that I’ve been caught up in an emotional affair with LO for a whole freaking year now and I mostly hate it and I’m so freaking tired, but to be honest I’m just saying that right now because she inexplicably started acting cold to me for the last week, and if/when she warms up to me again I’ll be back to thinking that my relationship with her is totally worth all the pain and misery and confusion and guilt. I’m such a freaking idiot, maybe one day I’ll actually do the right thing for everyone and put an end to this mess or maybe she’ll actually end it for good one of these times and not cycle back again like she always has so far. That’s my biggest fear and also probably the best thing that could happen to me, or I could stop putting my happiness in her hands and actually take charge of my own life and tell her I can’t keep doing this anymore.
I can relate to so much of this. LO is the one who started the EA, but I go through so much worry and confusion over how he really feels. I keep up boundaries to try to keep it from turning into a PA, yet worry as if him respecting the boundaries means he doesn’t care. He gets insanely busy and I don’t see or hear from him, and start to wonder if he feels anything at all, or even if he hates me, then he shows up at church again, and makes a beeline for me for hugs and flirting. The roller coaster drives me crazy, yet those little moments keep me from jumping off it. Seems like the best I can do lately is to try to enjoy other things in life again, and keep working on putting sparks back into my marriage, and not focus all my thoughts on LO. But when I go through difficult periods in my personal life, like right now, thoughts of LO are comforting. Just as LO started the EA during a time when things were stressful at church, and thinking of LO made the problems at church go away.
I can relate to you both, especially when thinking of myself in the thick of high limerence.
I also felt jealousy for my LOs SO and felt hurt and angry with him when I for example suspected he texted her at the same time as me or didn’t answer me because he was on a call with her which is really ridiculous. Being his friend, at times I went back and forth between kind of defending her to him and enjoying that he criticized her.
I als know the double standard between expecting him to put up with my love for SO but being jealous of his.
Hi Mila,
You make me laugh with the comment on having that double standard with LOs. It’s true ! What’s good for me is no good for you… that is, we can be jealous of their SOs but they cannot be jealous of ours, ha! That’s pure selfishness in our side!
Good day to you!
Hi Lost in Space, as usual, your comment got me thinking.
“Which is true? Am I lying to myself that I can love SO and also love LO, and in reality it’s only possible to truly love one person at a time? Or is it totally possible that LO loves me and loves her SO too and it’s just my jealousy that makes me unable to believe that?”
I can only speak for myself. I’m capable of loving a lot of people. I think your LO can love both you and her SO just like you love both LO and your SO. I don’t think you lose anything when she is close to her SO.
Let me see if I can say it another way. I have two dogs who I love to snuggle. I like to snuggle my neighbor’s cat, too. He is on my porch every night just hoping for some attention. So I go outside and play with him for a bit, then come inside and pet my doggies. I love all three animals. My dogs don’t lose any of my love while I’m petting the cat. I hope that makes sense.
I kind of wish you and your LO weren’t using the word “love.” I doubt that you can stop saying it once it starts, but will you try to avoid that word with your next LE? I think it escalates things too much.
You are awesome, Lost in Space! It’s good to hear from you. Guess what… I ran a 50-mile ultra trail race. It was freakin amazing! One of the best experiences of my life.
Hi Lovisa, thank you as always for your perspective, I appreciate you. I’m definitely not awesome, I’m a mess… but thank you 🙂. And congrats on the race! That’s a really great accomplishment!
Funny you made that analogy about the dogs and cats. I have a dog and 2 cats. The dog is anxiously attached to my SO, and any time SO shows affection to the cats or to me, the dog gets super jealous and starts whining and begging for affection, even if she was totally content lying on her bed moments before. There’s no other description for what the dog is feeling other than jealousy. I’ve always suspected she sees it as threatening to her own position if SO shows affection to anyone else, like her place in the pack is threatened and she might lose her connection to her person. Probably a lot of parallels to my own feelings – I probably subconsciously worry that if LO completely reconciles with her SO then she won’t need me or want to be close to me anymore, so I feel threatened.
I can probably count on one hand the number of times I’ve used the word love with her. Never in person, a couple of times on the phone, a couple of times in texts, once in a long emotional email I wrote her a few months ago when I thought she was about to leave. I do think that word all the time however, and obviously I use it freely when I’m writing here. I also use words like always and forever when she thanks me for my friendship and I make a lot of promises to always be there for her and never abandon her.
She’s never said the word love to me, which has always bothered me. I even asked her directly once if she loved me but she evaded the question (that was also during a particular rough time between us). I think that it’s mostly a boundary thing with her and that she could just never let herself say that word to another woman’s husband (plus she’s also a reserved ISTJ, not a mushy INFP like me). She tells me all the time that she appreciates me, she says she cares a lot about me, that she’s never met anyone like me… she’s told me a couple times that it makes her sad that our relationship can’t be forever, told me once that she was trying to stop fantasizing about us being together forever… and of course she keeps hanging around after I’ve told her I love her. So I do believe she loves me, even if I’ll never actually hear those words from her. To be honest, I’ve fantasized a lot about hearing her say that to me but I don’t expect it.
A few weeks ago, she came to my office and we had a long talk alone for almost an hour (I know…). She was really emotionally open with me that day, told me a lot about how I make her feel valuable and worthy and lovable. She said one thing I’ll never forget – she said that lately when she finds herself sinking into depression or spiraling into anxiety, she hears my voice in her head now telling her it’s going to be ok and that she’s capable of handling her problems and she’s good enough and she’s a good person and she’s worthy of love. That made me feel like all the turmoil of the last year was worth it. My goodness did that feel good.
I’ve been thinking about what my goals are in my relationship with her, cuz it’s been going on a long time and likely will continue for a long time more. I want to respect boundaries, not hurt my SO, not make LO feel anxious and guilty by pushing boundaries, but I do still want a close relationship with her. I told myself that I want to focus on loving her in appropriate and positive ways.
I named 2 goals for myself:
1) do whatever I can to help her get though nursing school so she can make a better life for herself and her family (and she’s given me various opportunities to help her with practical things and also with emotional support and encouragement when she feels like she can’t do it).
2) Keep focusing on being positive and supportive and building her up. I want her to see herself the way I see her, to love herself the way I love her, and help to replace all of her self doubt and self hated with self-love.
That’s my goals anyway. I think the more I can focus on those, the better off I am – it let’s me see this is a marathon, not a sprint, and not get so caught up in “oh no, she didn’t text me back for two days, does she hate me now?!?”. The hard parts of course are keeping my jealousy and insecurities and anxieties under control, which is super challenging.
Jeez, Speedy,
Your LO is going to be a nurse?! That explains a lot.
LOs 2 & 3 were nurses and I dated another one before I met my wife.
I’m drawn to them like a moth to a flame but every one I ever tangled with turned out to be more trouble than she was worth.
Thanks Lost in Space, you gave me a lot to think about. I’ve got to run my daughter to the orthodontist right now, so I can’t respond right away. I’ll be pondering your message and I’ll get back to you.
I’m sorry you’re in a dark place right now. I know it hurts when she pulls away. We’re here for you. Hang in there Buddy.
Sorry, LIS!
Thanks Lovisa, I’ll look forward to hearing your thoughts later, you always teach me something!
I’m not actually doing too bad right now. I was in a mood last night, but I’m feeling alright today. Most everything else in life is going pretty darn good, and I’ve been through enough of these cycles with LO now that the lows aren’t as low as they used to be and I’m not catastrophizing the down times as much as I used to.
No worries LE! Me and Speedwagon are pretty similar except he happened to pick an LO with better boundary setting, easy to get us mixed up 😀
Lost in Space, I’m glad to hear that you are handling this low better. I’ve been thinking about what you said.
First, I have to say that your dog is funny. I got that out now we can discuss your goals and the “I love yous.”
I’m relieved that you two aren’t using the word love regularly. Thanks for explaining the situation for me. Based on what you described, I think she has intense feelings, but I don’t know if she uses the word love when she thinks about you. Let’s not forget that love means different things to different people. I don’t know what it means to her.
I love your goals! (Lol, I did not use that word intentionally, but it’s kinda funny right?). In addition to your goals I would ask you to please try to always put your SO first.
Let’s talk about your withdrawal symptoms. Are you using positive coping strategies? Are you still going to your group meetings?
This is a side thought, how did the ketamine treatment work for your SO? I think you talked about it a few months ago.
Sorry, I think this reply was poorly written. It’s been a long day and I’m tired but I wanted to comment today so here am, half asleep, trying to make sense of my thoughts.
Best wishes!
LiS,
as much as I like your post, something niggles.
Your two goals for the relationship are solely based on doing your best for LO. While that sounds admirably unselfish, it doesn’t sit well with me somehow.
You should keep a balance between caring for her well-being and your own well-being. Your goals are only about her well-being.
Also in a healthy relationship there should be some giving and taking on both sides, not only from one side.
The goals sound unselfish, but
I feel that you get a lot of gratification and validation from helping her and her being thankful for it. Which of course isn’t a bad thing and you might add it up to the „giving“ on her side, but I‘m not so sure if this being dependent on her thankfulness isn’t fueling limerence (I mean the vexing, consuming side of limerence).
Sorry if I‘m being blunt again.
“No worries LE! Me and Speedwagon are pretty similar except he happened to pick an LO with better boundary setting, easy to get us mixed up”
That and the fact your LO actual expresses care and interest in you.
But this last week I had an interesting turn of events with LO that has warmed her up to me quite a bit. Without going into details, she had something happen while at the office that caused her great distress. First thing she did was reach out to me for comfort. It took about an hour of sitting with her, we took a walk, and just being with her to get her calm. Not to sound creepy opportunist, because at the time I was truly acting out of care, but looking back it was pure bliss to be able to care for her and comfort her in this way and have her need me. Some caring words and appropriate touching happened. It was all very natural on both our parts. Later that evening she texted and gave me a big sincere thank you. I was more euphoric than I had been in months.
Since this, the last few days she has been quite warm to me. Like a bit of a bond happened and residual emotions are still there. She even initiated another text to send me something funny. She has not done that in months either.
I’ll see how long this added warmth and her initiation lasts because history has shown that she should revert back to the norm of acting fairly indifferent to me.
Speedy,
Be careful!
You do not want to become the person your LO turns to in distress.
I can tell you from experience how badly this can go sideways.
Well, jokes on me because this morning I texted her out of a sense of greater closeness and she basically blew me off. Feeling pretty stupid and low now. I need her out of my life, feeling trapped.
Hi Speedwagon, I always say you fight the good fight more than most. I feel for you as you are probably a deeper more emotional person than your LO who could be leaning on you in her moment of need as the best option within her sphere of options at that moment…. sorry is this a bit of a harsh assessment ? I wasn’t there but I know some people who just live in the moment and don’t have real connections and forget afterwards. I don’t get that at all as it’s very shallow in my view. Some people would call them ‘users’. What do you think ? We all have different personality types.
I’m INFP like lost in space and I expect many of us too. indifferent LOs probably a very different personality type ! Sorry for the high and lows your LE continues to throw at you.
Speedwagon
I believe it was L.E. that told me this. I described to him how she was even more warm and kind after she started seeing her gentleman friend. Something I found strange in the moment. L.E. said that his belief was that she was still trying to keep me in “her orbit” as a possible backup option for her to go to for help or advice in case he didn’t pan out. Which was difficult for me to hear at the time when I first got here. Because that than tarnished the image I had of her to admit that she wasn’t the perfect woman.
As a ISFJ, since IMHO brought up personality types, my drive to always be there for her wasn’t just limerence. It’s why I try to help anyone and everyone. And my breaking point for feeling taken advantage of is really high. The limerent in me idealized her and the ISFJ in me continued to drive me to help her with anything. It was like a jagerbomb. Great at first and then doom soon after. I fell down two flights of stairs, literally, from too many of them. I learned my lesson. Hopefully I learn with people too. Everyone has motives and agendas. But the people that interact with them don’t always know. Wishing the best for you my friend.
Yikes, Speedwagon, that stinks. Well, at least you have your other female friend who actually reciprocates.
Good luck!
@IMHO
I think you might be mostly correct in your assessment. There are moments here and there where I feel connected to her because of how warm she treats me, but then most of the time she is aloof and indifferent towards me. But these moments of warmness suck me back in and then I make bad decisions only to be let down. It’s a destructive cycle I need to break.
@Adam
I’m a ISFJ as well so I completely understand where you are coming from. It traps me into thinking I can just be her good friend and provide for her without considering the toll it takes on my own emotions.
@Lovisa
Yes, that other woman and I are still good friends with similar communication styles. We get along well and I appreciate her a ton. Reciprocation in a relationship is so nice.
Hi Speedwagon,
I was so glad that at last your LO showed some warmth and care, just to hear that she’s aloof and indifferent again. I have told you to enjoy the precious moments she shares with you, but now I’ll add to it, Yes, enjoy those moments BUT NEVER be the one to initiate anything with her. She’s not to be trusted with her feelings. I wonder how’s she with her poor SO.
I care for your well being because you are in a very difficult position by having to put up with her moods and not be able to get rid of her because work circumstances.
I’m also an ISFJ – A (assertive- Defender). We care for the people we are concerned with but we also have a limit…
Don’t take it so hard, what the heck, who said any relationship is easy? There’s always ups and downs even in the best of them. Chin up, head high, and until next round. This shall also pass! 💪🏽💪🏽💪🏽💪🏽
Song of the blog:
“ The show must go on”,
The three dogs night (Leo Sayer wrote the song 1973?)
For limerents, the show must go on … bring in the clowns!
@Nisor,
Thank you for you kind words. I try hard to enjoy the good and not stress the bad. Very hard to do.
“BUT NEVER be the one to initiate anything with her.”
This is so true and I always have this intention but fail a lot when those warm days come along. I keep forgetting my own manta…texting is the devil’s playground for the limerent mind”. Texting with LO brings nothing but frustration, agitation, and disappointment. It should be avoided at all cost. But I so desire the connection.
In my experience, I did find that I could maintain love for two people at the same time and I did that for quite a while. But then it became impossible not to favor one relationship and prejudice the other. This is natural. It takes a greater and greater amount of daily cognitive ability to keep parity, if one feels like keeping parity at all. Also, when things are good with an SO, the LO kind of fades into the background. When things are bad with an SO, the LO becomes more important. This is important to understand because if you really want to make things work with your SO, you’ll need all the energy you can muster on the bad days. On those days, I wanted my best self to show up. If you know you can turn to an LO on the bad days, why bother showing up for yourself?
Devil in the details, hi
You say it as it is with LO and SO.
It’s a balancing act , walking on a tight rope, that cannot be sustainable for long time without cracking up! We know we’re playing with fire 🔥, but want the highs no matter what, or who gets burned. Perhaps cannot confront reality? That’s why DR.L recommends NC and to live a purposeful life. Not easy task, but try we must, for our sanity and well being.
Have a good day.
“We know we’re playing with fire 🔥, but want the highs no matter what, or who gets burned.”
Reminds me of drinking. I KNOW I am beyond the legal limit if I get pulled over, but also I KNOW I am still functionally capable of driving. So I guess I’ll take the chance. I’m confident nothing will happen. All the while in the back of your head you are dreading the consequences of a DUI.
I guess that’s why limerence is called “person addiction.”
Adam, please don’t drink and drive. A DUI isn’t the biggest risk. You might actually hurt someone. Just stop it, k?
No worries Miss Lovisa I don’t. I was using it to illustrate my point. Believe me I do not want to hurt anyone. Sorry if I scared you.
Oh whew. That makes sense. Thank you.
Hi all, I am jumping in this comment section just because it is the most recent blog post. I don’t have much to say about jealousy. I just wanted to comment on my current LE that seems rather unusual compared to what I am reading among others and see if anyone among this community has experienced anything similar.
Apologies if I get terminology wrong. Although I now am realizing I’ve suffered from limerence on and off for 24 years, I did not know that it had a name or that there was a whole community of people like me. Reading this website has really helped me understand myself and my challenges, and knowing there are others like me has been liberating.
What seems unusual about my experience is that I have the same LO for 24 years, but with long intervening periods of little to no contact and little to no limerence. My first LE with my LO was in college, and since then we have never lived in the same state. That LE eventually faded after a year or so. I got married and had a family. So did she, in another state. I probably had one or two other milder LEs with the same LO during the intervening period, not sparked by any direct contact, although I suppose probably saw her posts on Facebook or something.
Then she deleted her Facebook account and we had almost zero contact for probably 5+ years leading up to this year (I suppose we were still connected on LinkedIn?). But she appeared in one of my dreams and that ignited a very intense LE earlier this year. Not yet understanding limerence like I do now, I was desperate for contact with her, and reached out with whatever contact information I could dig up after all the years. She did call me, and it was an amazing high! But ultimately self-destructive.
I’ve been struggling with this LE for the past six months or so. I had been texting her as much as I thought I reasonably could without seeming weird, looking for her Facebook posts (she let me know she had re-established an account), and checking compulsively to see if she “liked” my posts. Every waking moment that I allowed my mind to wander from some other active function it directly went to her.
In the past week discovering this community has seemed to help a lot and I am trying to figure out my best path to mental health. It would be sad for me to totally cut off contact since she is objectively a wonderful and inspirational human being. What I really desire is to be close friends, but I know that is probably not only self-defeating for me but probably just a deep rationalization to seek reciprocity. ARRGGGH! This condition is so frustrating!
Anyway, just curious if anyone has experienced, or heard of someone else who experienced, a relapse of limerence for the same LO after many years or even decades, with no or almost no contact (other than in a dream!). I have heard of alcohol or drug addicts relapsing after many years sober, and this feels similar to me.
I don’t know how closely this tracks, but my LO1 and LO2 were initially both in my late teens/early twenties, and I relapsed with both of them when I was in my early thirties. The difference is that LO1 and I were close friends the whole time, and LO2 and I were at least in some sort of intermittent contact. So I don’t know if it’s the same. I have found with LO3 that NC doesn’t work to get him out of my head.
Bridgelover,
You say No contact does not help you get LO#3 out of your head… it doesn’t help me either. The first time it took me about three to four years to completely wipe LO out of my mind. But I was young then, full of strength , courage, hopes and dreams a whole life ahead of me. Yes, I felt valiant and ready to conquer the world, but 49 years later limerence hit me with the same person, ( I’m
retired) . It’s being a year since NC , and nothing has changed in my mind, the rumination and thoughts are there just the same although I don’t get to see LO for he’s in another continent. But I have no other alternative. Thus, either limerence gets smothered by NC or I get smothered by limerence. Whichever comes first, ha. I’ll resist this monster!
Best wishes to you.
You’re not alone, Sleepless. My LE has been on and off for about 2 decades now too, and it is mainly for LO#1. He was my first serious relationship while we were both in college; we dated for 3 years, but after that, we had a tumultuous on-and-off relationship for another 3 years.
After graduation (and our mostly NC – long story), I have LE for 3 other people; one was a one-sided LE towards a housemate in a sharehouse, the next one was for SO (the most short-lived limerence), and my last LO was an online EA, which I could clearly see was a transference of thoughts of LO#1 after a decade of being with SO, as well as being in mid-life.
My LE, or dreams of LO#1, seem to happen more frequently during low points in life or when there’s a turning point that needs to be taken. For example, they’re all from different phases of my life, different work environments, or after I moved to a different place.
Now I take the dreams of LO#1 as the “gas empty” sign, where my subconscious is telling me to wake up and do something about my current situation, whether it’s with work, hobbies, or interests, or with SO.
Reading Dr. L’s blog and the community’s experiences have been really helpful. The time I’ve spent in the LwL old forum vs. the new LwL community forum shows that thoughts of LO#1 are less hurtful with the knowledge I have now. It’s like tending to the garden; I mustn’t let the weed overgrow or risk negative thoughts and bad judgements when things get messy in life.
Hi Why.
I agree I think maybe my dream of LO appeared when I was subconsciously feeling particularly neglected by my SO. If I had realized that maybe I could have nipped this LE in the bud, but I let it get full blown, which is had to get back under control
Welcome Sleepless!
Nisor experienced a similar situation when she had a dream about her LO after many years of no contact. I hope she reads your post.
We’ve had other commenters who had an LE that went dormant for years and then came back.
You are not alone.
Best wishes!
Best wishes!
Hi Sleepless,
Your post could have been written by me with the experience with Limerence! Exactly the same similarities, with the exception that I was forty nine years in total silence with LO, who was an SO for three years when I was young. I now have an SO, so does LO.
After so many years he appeared to me in a dream, (See my comment on “Limerence
dreams, LwL, , second comment) and when I woke up I was inundated with vivid colors of all the memories we lived together, impossible to shake them off from my mind; my brain, mind thoughts were taken hostage to a point I thought I was going crazy! How could this be happening after forty nine years of oblivion? From then on I lived ten long months on automatic pilot, very deep sorrow griped me. Now I was craving for LO like an addict. ( I didn’t know of the limerence term) I knew I had this urge to contact him, but I had never heard or seen him all those years. Neither knew his whereabouts, so I did research and found his number and address. I hesitated to call and withheld myself for five months.
Is he alive, sick, would he remember me? after all, I was only three years in his long life of many affairs. But our romance was one of intense passion, and sharing, and I was the one who broke away.
I finally got the courage and called, it went well, of course he remembered very well! It was a sad high! I told him he cannot call me because SO is always around. He told me he has one of those old flat phones…? when I said I would send him photos, he said to mail it to him. His So has control of his phone it appears, because there’s a recording to leave a message with her voice… or maybe they share the phone, IDK. It’s strange to me at this time of advanced technology. He said I could call him anytime. But the recording is always there. Apparently LO told his SO about us and she became jealous ? Who knows? I managed to call for a second time and it went well, he was gracious as always. I decided not to call again when he said: “You were not patient, have you waited a little longer, our lives would now be different. It was not meant to be, it was fate or maybe God.” I got the message… I t was a low and I realized I cannot be his friend because I have deep feelings for LO. It’s been a year since that last phone call, but the limerence is there and thoughts of LO are constantly in my mind still. Besides it makes me feel guilty with SO, and I wish it goes away so I can be free at last again. As long as these thoughts are a constant reminder of LO, I feel am “stealing” from my relationship with SO, which is true , and my integrity is not there. But I can’t help it ! So No Contact is the way to smother this limerence, what else can one do?
Best wishes and good luck to you.
Hi Nisor,
Thanks for your message. I agree there are a lot of similarities between our most recent LEs. It’s comforting to know I’m not the only one. But kind of difficult also to realize that even no contact for many years (49 years for you, wow!) is no guarantee you can’t relapse with the same LO. I’m not sure I’m ready to commit to NC again right now but I am feeling a bit better and trying not to text LO or comment on her Facebook posts. Every time mind wanders to LO I am deliberately trying to change my thoughts to good memories with my SO. We’ll see how far I get.
Sleepless,
I’m curious, you don’t have to answer if you feel I’m overstepping , but why do you think getting in touch with LO is destructive? Was she warm with you, did she give you some indication, an inkling , she was interested in a relationship? Are you strong enough to keep in touch and not seeing her? Maybe you’re afraid it will progress to a higher level besides being friends?
I understand why you don’t want to go NC yet… there’s this feeling of enjoying the friendship but without getting hurt. I wish I could have enjoyed some of my communication with LO, there are so many things I wanted to ask, and clarify of our past relationship. I wanted to tell him why I broke up, for we never had that final conversation. I feel i ghosted him .and sometimes feel guilty for being intransigent when he reached out to me , I just didn’t give him an opportunity to speak. I was so stubborn and relentless and resentful! I was mean and I feel so sorry because I loved him so much. Now he knows that because I told him in the first telephone call that he was the ‘love of my life’, to which he answered: “I’m sorry you feel that way.” I was not expecting him to still love me, so much time has passed by. I understand that. But in the second phone call last year he was more tender and very lovely with me. Said so many beautiful things about us. And complained that I listened to my friends instead. (which is not true, I don’t consult with anyone about my decisions about my life) but that’s the impression he has of me breaking up from him. Well, now it’s really too late. If it wasn’t for that phone recording that stops me from calling, if it wasn’t for his old phone that I cannot message to keep in contact, I don’t know where I’d be today with this limerence. For I’m a very passionate person and can’t hide it, so I’d been leaking and SO would have noticed and I’d be in great trouble!!!
I fight with the urge to call most of the time, but then I think of my dignity and self respect and I calm down those impulses. It’s very aggravating and disturbing this limerence monster… Patience !
It’s good you’re deviating your thoughts from
LO to good memories with SO. I do that too.
Courage and stay well and strong 💪🏽
Hi Nisor
I guess hearing LO’s voice on the phone probably kicked my ruminations and compulsions into higher gear. But maybe not. I was desperate to contact her after that dream. I think maybe if I can work the majority of ruminations out of my mind I might be strong enough to occasionally text or comment on her Facebook posts. Right now when she writes back it does give me a dopamine high that I need to avoid right now. Maybe someday I could even be strong enough to see her in person. But I realize now that I’m not currently ready for it. I don’t want to shut her out of my life completely because she not only is sweet personally (and smart and funny) but really an inspirational person with what she’s done in her life.
Although our relapse LEs are similar, we seem to have had very different original experiences with our LOs all those years ago. Unlike you, I never dated my LO, we were only ever close friends. Because of external factors and me overcomplicating things in my head, I made her unavailable to myself as a partner. Which was the worst mistake I could make. But I think that is a story for another time.
Speedwagon, I’m sorry to hear about your day today. I was worried for you when you wrote about that experience the other day, seemed like a setup for a pretty big letdown afterward. You and me are both enneagram 2s – our pattern is that we try to earn love by being helpful, and then when we get crushed when we don’t receive the appreciation we think we earned. Hope you can bounce back quickly and maybe do some nice things with SO this weekend.
I’m feeling pretty down about my LO right now too. For the past couple of months things had been pretty nice between us, texting back and forth most workdays, chatting on the phone once or twice a week, keeping things warm and friendly while keeping the stronger feelings unspoken – it actually kinda felt like we’d almost managed to turn back the clock to before disclosure. I mean, I know it’s impossible to actually go back to that, but overall things had been feeling pretty nice – obviously I was always left with some angst from always wanting more, but I was feeling alright most of the time, like we’d finally gotten our relationship to a place that could be sustainable for a long time.
Last Thursday we spent a good part of the day texting back and forth, just bantering and making each other laugh, chatting about how she was doing in school, stuff like that, said goodnight and see you tomorrow… and then she’s pretty much been giving me the cold shoulder ever since. A sudden inexplicable change. Either not responding to texts at all or responding with a thumbs up or a couple words (I read the term “soft ghosting” the other day and that seems to apply), declined a couple of invitations to chat on the phone, and didn’t initiate any contact at all. Today, after a week of this, I texted her to ask if she was ok, she responded with I’m fine, I told her I felt like something had changed pretty abruptly last week, she said she was just tired and busy, I asked specifically if everything was ok between us, she gave a thumbs up, I asked if she’d feel like talking on the phone a bit today, she replied 2 hours later saying sorry she’d missed the text and have a good weekend and see you Monday. All polite and cordial, but completely devoid of any warmth or tenderness or any indication that she’d actually want to communicate with me. Felt like trying to talk to a brick wall.
I don’t believe her that nothing happened last Thursday. She has therapy on Thursdays, so either she had a tough session (maybe her therapist advised her to stop talking with me?) or a fight with her SO, or both… If she really is just busy, that almost feels worse, like “really, you’re so busy you can’t spare 15 minutes once in a week to talk to someone you supposedly care a lot about?”. But I think something happened, because that’s always been the case when she changes suddenly like that – it usually just takes a few weeks of her stonewalling and me getting increasingly anxious before she’ll finally admit it. I wish we could go to couples counseling together but I don’t think that’s really an option for people in EAs 🤣.
But anyway, there’s nothing I can do except try not to think about her too much over the weekend – stay busy with purposeful activity, spend quality time with SO, and then just see what happens next week, these days I can never really count on her to be honest with me about her feelings so only time will tell what’s really going on.
Anyway my friend, hope you’re doing ok and have as good of a weekend as you can under the circumstances.
LIS,
She has an SO and is seeing a therapist. You have an SO.
Maybe the nicest thing you can do is back off and let her work things out without your interference.
I know how hard it is to turn your back when your LO reaches out to you. I didn’t when I should have and things got a whole lot worse before they got better.
I destroyed my relationship with LO #4. I told her that I never wanted to be on the list of people who hurt her or let her down. I don’t think I’m anywhere near the top of that list but I’m pretty sure that I’m on it.
In January it will be 8 years since we said goodbye, 5 years since our last brief exchange, and 2 years since my last social media drive-by.
But, I don’t work with her. That makes distancing yourself that much harder. You have to work with her.
It’s not your job to save her.
Lovisa and Mila, thank you both for your messages. I know you’re right. Relationships need to be roughly equal in terms of give and take, and ours isn’t. If she wants to be talk, we talk. I rearrange my whole schedule to make time to talk with her. If she doesn’t want to talk, I just have to wait until she’s feeling differently. I’m always available for her, she’s only available for me when she feels like it.
She and I were talking a few weeks ago, and she was like “I feel like you do so much more for me than I do for you. I feel like a bad friend. I hope you know how much I really do care about you even if I’m not as good at showing it”. I told her it’s ok, that I do know, that I do feel cared for by her. At that time, we’d been talking most every day and it was true, I did feel very cared for. But it’s so up and down – now we’re down again and I’ve felt ignored and uncared for for the past week.
I guess that partly I extend her a lot grace because I know she’s just so damaged and I believe that she really is trying her best to be a good friend to me, even if it doesn’t always feel like it. I try to put myself in her shoes, growing up with literally no one who loved her, getting beatings from both of her parents on a daily basis, then spending the last 20 years with a cold, domineering and controlling partner. She’s never had any close friendships with either men or women. She’s told me that she really doesn’t know how to maintain a friendship, never has, and that she’s trying her best with me and she’s sorry for the times she just doesn’t have any warmth or energy to give me.
So what do I get out of our relationship? Obviously it can’t all be about me trying to help her, or feeling pity for her… that’s not a relationship, that’s pathology. The thing is, when she’s feeling good about herself and isn’t overwhelmed and is able to get outside of her head, she really is wonderful. She can be so warm and caring and affectionate and funny and insightful and supportive. She’s delightfully quirky, we get each other’s humor so well, it’s just so fun talking with her. At her best, she’s the best listener I know, I can talk to her about anything and feel completely heard and feel how much she cares about what I’m saying and how much she cares about me. In those times, it feels like she’s fascinated by whatever I’m talking about because she’s fascinated by me – that feels really good. At her worst, she crawls into a little cave inside her own head and stays there until she’s ready to come out again, maybe a few days, maybe a couple weeks, maybe a couple months. She isn’t doing it to hurt me, although it definitely does hurt me. I always have to remind myself not to take it personally, to just understand that she just literally has nothing left to give and she needs to retreat for awhile in order to recharge before she can re-engage.
I was thinking about love languages today. I think I show love through all of them (gift giving the least, everything else pretty equal). I prefer to receive love through physical affection and quality time more than anything, then probably words of affirmation, then acts of service, with gifts being way at the bottom unless it’s something super thoughtful with a lot of sentimental meaning.
Anyway, in the case of LO, physical affection obviously isn’t an option (with the exception of our quarterly hug) so quality time is the main way she can make me feel loved. When she gives her time to me, especially as busy as I know she is, I really do feel cared for by her. That’s really the main thing I want out of the relationship, just to spend time with her, even if it’s just chatting on the phone for a half hour a couple times a week. Spending time with her just feels so good. When she retreats into herself and puts up her walls, which I know she does for self-preservation when she’s just too overwhelmed to give anything of herself, it hurts me because it cuts off the quality time I need to feel loved by her.
I think the reason I wrote those relationship goals the other day is that they give me something to focus on during the times when we’re disconnected. They help me to think big picture, to think “remember, this is a multi-year project, I’m not going to get caught up in the day-to-day or even week-to-week peaks and valleys, I’m gonna stay focused on the big picture”. That kind of thinking works well for me. I mean, I made it through 8 years of medical school and residency – a lot of it really sucked, there were plenty of bad days when I wanted to just quit, but focusing on the long term plan kept me on track.
This week’s been rough because she’s been distant, but when I step back, I can see that she actually is trying her best – she’s at least texted me back to say she’s too drained or too overwhelmed to talk when I ask, where in the past she would have just not responded at all. I know that doesn’t seem like much, but it tells me that she actually is trying to be more attendant to my feelings even when she has very little to give. Maybe another year from now she’ll be even healthier and I’ll be even healthier – I can tell we’ve actually both experienced a lot of growth in the past year and I think we’ve catalyzed a lot of that for each other.
Awww, Lost in Space, I just want to give you a big hug. As my 8-year-old says when I come home smelling bad after a run, “Air hug!” I’m sending you air hugs.
Your post makes sense. I can see why you are so drawn to your LO and why it’s hard when she is cold. Wow, that was really heavy. I wish I had some insight to offer. All I have are these air hugs, but I have a lot of them, so…well… I guess that’s something.
Thank you so much Lovisa. That’s exactly what I needed. You are truly a good friend.
It’s funny – 20 years ago I’d just started dating my SO and she warned me that I might not want to get involved with her because she was pretty messed up and had a lot of baggage. I told her that didn’t bother me and I wanted to be with her no matter what and I was down for anything. We’ve been through a lot together since that day, but all in all we’ve had 20 pretty great years together with many more to come.
A year ago, LO told me I shouldn’t get too close to her because she didn’t want to make me deal with all her “ups and downs”. I told her it didn’t bother me, I wanted to be part of her life no matter what. For awhile she’d gradually reveal a bit more about herself and her traumas and mental health struggles, and always seemed amazed that I didn’t run away, that I still treasured her and wanted to be close to her. I think after a year she’s finally realized this isn’t just a phase for me, that I see all of her and am really committed to her for as long as she’ll let me be part of her life.
Both women tried to warn me. Any wounds I have are self-inflicted. But I guess deep down I wouldn’t have it any other way.
I think your SO is lucky to have you, Lost in Space. It sounds like she fills your need to be needed, too.
Your posts have so much depth that I’m left speechless. It’s triggering a lot of self-reflection in Mila. I think you should keep sharing your thoughts.
Lovisa,
It certainly does! I‘m just very sorry to impose my bad English on you all. It‘s hard to say what I really mean in these sensitive matters in a foreign language…
“Both women tried to warn me. Any wounds I have are self-inflicted. But I guess deep down I wouldn’t have it any other way.”
My wife has mental health issues and trauma (that she has shared here herself) and LO had her own baggage due to a rotten man in her life previous to meeting her. Even the women I dated before meeting my wife had issues. So I know what you mean there.
But take time for yourself. It will catch up with you. 24 years together and the pressure of being the caregiver wears on me. Your wife appreciates your care giving. Knowing you are appreciated can help. If I didn’t feel it, it wouldn’t be easy to be so.
The allure of limerence was she did always thank me. I know my wife appreciates my efforts. I just don’t always here it. Just as I did when she was at home raising our boys while I was out putting food on the table. I probably didn’t say “thank you” enough. It is easy to take the people that do the most for us for granted. But the men our boys turned out to be are because of their mother.
It always comes back to, as my dear wife says my “damn rescue complex”. I do it more than I can mentally handle it. It doesn’t even have to be limerence or a romantic interest. I did it with my wife’s cousin when her and her husband were going through a bad time early in their marriage. It’s just an instinct. A reflex.
But you seem to be around my age, and as we get older, we may get more life experience but we also accumulate mental stress putting those we love before us. Take time for yourself. You will be better for it for yourself and the people that depend on you. For me here lately it’s been playing an online video game with our youngest boy for a few hours each night. It’s a nice stress reliever.
Know that you are appreciated even if you don’t hear it verbally; these two women know what you do for them.
I think you are communicating very well, Mila! Keep it up. Your English is impressive.
I like where you are going with your thoughts, too. I love the idea of unselfish love. It’s what I aim for. I think it is the reason I am rarely jealous of my LO’s wife. I known she is the key to his happiness. I like to see LO enjoy time with his wife.
I love that hero instinct in men, Adam. Let’s celebrate it!
Lovisa,
I like the idea of unselfish love too. I just think there must be limits regarding one‘s own well-being.
Also, just a thought- is it really still unselfish love if one „gets“ something out of it- words of thankfulness, warm looks, feeling to be the hero and savior?
But that’s only a side-thought.
In my definition, if it is unselfish, it‘s love, not limerence. Limerence, as I know it, is selfish, it wants reciprocation, it wants the other to behave exactly how I crave him to behave etc.
That’s one reason why I want to get rid of it. I would be a better and more loving friend if I wouldn’t yearn so much for reciprocation.
The paradox is that it works better to think selfishly, to think „he‘s not giving anything, he‘s only enjoying what I give, he doesn’t appreciate me, I’m worth more than that“to stop feeling limerent. But of course I‘m in danger to kill the real love, too.
I‘m back to the old question in this LE- how to get rid of limerence but keep the friendship.
I still insist that it must be possible. It‘s a struggle, though.
My LO has a lot of baggage and issues, and boy am I glad I’m no longer entangled in them. In the past I would have seen the issues as vulnerability which means my LO needs me even more! This is deluded thinking. The only person who can sort out LO’s mess is LO themself.
I wanted to be LO’s savior too … but LO in turn would prefer to be the savior of someone even more messed up. When I look at it, so much trauma, so many hang-ups … why do we have the rescue complex? Does it validate our existence when we feel low and worthless? Is LE ultimately a fantasy of MATTERING.
“Is LE ultimately a fantasy of MATTERING”
I love this thought and I think there is very much truth in this. I so bad want to matter to my LO and am constantly seeking her attention and affection. Ultimately I get let down more than validated and yet I keep trying.
I took have a very strong rescue fantasy for LO.
Yes, we are like rats tapping on a lever that gives us intermittent reward. That’s why uncertainty is such a crucial ingredient to trigger limerence (as opposed to a normal crush).
Mila, you have some great insight.
“ Also, just a thought- is it really still unselfish love if one „gets“ something out of it- words of thankfulness, warm looks, feeling to be the hero and savior?”
Yes! As long as the limerent isn’t expecting anything in return. If I compliment my LO because I want a compliment back, that is a problem. If I compliment my LO to sincerely recognize his strengths, but I want nothing in return, that is unselfish.
I agree that limerence is selfish, kind of. I think you can find yourself in a Limerent obsession and then you get to choose your path: Seek attention and reciprocation or accept that you are going to suffer, but other people don’t have to suffer. Here is how I look at it. My recent LOs are incredible men. They have families who they love. I know that LO’s life is better if he has a happy family. So even though I would love to snuggle my LO, I won’t do that because it would distract him from his family and I don’t want to hurt my SO either. I won’t engage in negative talk about spouses. I will cheerfully compliment LO’s spouse every chance I get. I hope to strengthen his family and at least not hurt it. It is painful for me sometimes, but when I look at the big picture, I know that everyone is better off with their current spouse. I hope that makes sense. Strengthening families in general is a personal pursuit of mine regardless of limerence. I think strong families are the key to a functioning society.
It sounds like it works better for you if you recognize how little you get from your LO and you let that frustration fester. That sounds like a solid approach.
I think I am living the dream of being real friends with my LOs. I have zero limerence for LO2. Our friendship feels normal again (we’ve been friends for over 20 years). I am still very attracted to LO3, but I don’t have intrusive thoughts or obsessive behavior. I don’t think I would call it limerence anymore. I am friends with LO3, too. My approach is to do the right thing no matter how I feel. For example, if I see a picture of LO3, I might feel tempted to tell him how freakin hot he is, instead I say something like, “I’m impressed by how well you stuck to your goals. It’s paying off. Nice work!”
I hope that makes sense. This is how I got through my limerence. I don’t think I have it anymore, thank goodness. And I didn’t damage any relationships as a result of being limerent. I actually got a new friend out of it: LO3 and I were acquaintances when I decided to transfer to him. Our relationship bloomed into a lovely friendship. It’s very nice.
Lovisa,
you sound too good to be true;)
No, honestly, it’s actually the way I would want to go, but I‘m attacked on my way by physical desires, jealousy, insecurity etc.
I think a mixture of both would be good- recognizing or even assuming that he doesn’t want more than friendship, that I’m not that important to him, seeing him as the slightly egotistical and lukewarm person he is, and accepting it, and still see his lovely sides and be a loving friend.
Difficult task😱
I don’t agree fully, but I think maybe I expressed myself wrong and you didn’t understand it how I meant it-
I think one is not unselfish when one helps without expecting help back, but expects gratitude and validation out of it. Unselfish would be if you expect nothing at all from the other person. Maybe that’s what you meant.
I still struggle this week. Will see him tomorrow and don’t know which attitude/view of him to take on..
Hi, Ex Savior
I see where you’re coming from.
One has to be very careful when choosing with whom to get involved with. (Lots of people with lots of baggage 🧳 out there ! Need wisdom, discernment.
There are three kinds of men/women
Healthy ones, broken ones and damaged ones.
1) Healthy ones-
these are men/women with high living standards and morality, men and women with dignity and good principles, people with discernment and wisdom, self esteem, no baggage, psychologically healthy, etc.
2) Broken men/women
These are people that are currently crossing a bad period in theirs lives and NEED HEALING. They maybe in the process of a divorce, had an accident that affected their mental health, death of a loved one, separation from work, people with different traumas and in need of professional help, a therapist to deal with their baggage. These men/women should not be dating or getting involved into relationships until they are healed. If not, the partner is used as a therapist, and when they get better, if they do, they move on without you. In other words, they unconsciously used you to get over their trauma.
3) The damaged men/women
These are people who seem to be beyond repair, where a miracle is necessary if they would ever become well and functioning individuals again.
These are extreme drug abusers, people with continues police records, narcissists, serial cheaters, deceitful people , etc. (you add to the list)
A healthy person, in a jiffy, will definitely identify to what group the person they are dealing with belongs to and take the necessary precautions.
The broken people will drag the dating to sometimes a level of involvement before they realize they both need help or break up…
Or they go on a cycle of suffering, on and off , not reaching a steady, healthy or happy relationship.
The third group , involve with one another, never accomplishing anything, but failing and falling back to their devices and vices… they are beyond repair.
Let’s be wise, heal ourselves, get rid of any baggage to become an exceptional partner in any relationship.
Hi LiS,
thanks for explaining, now have a much better picture of her and your LE.
You seem to be a very perceptive, articulate and warm person, I wish a had a friend like you.
I also understand your LO now, now that I know that she tells you openly about her problems to commit and recognizes that you are giving her a lot.
I always compare with my LE, and you got me thinking. The way she gets hot and cold remind me a bit of myself.
My LO is my friend and he maintains basically the same steady warm, but not too warm contact. I on the other side try to get closer to him sometimes, because I crave it and also, importantly, because I feel he likes it, but is too inhibited or sensible or whatever (the big question) to come closer himself (he does, but only if I start first, and only a little step, which is for him a big one, but never bough for my limerent soul).
But then I don’t get what I want, (loving words or touches – we also have different love languages, he likes to help etc) and I‘m vexed and decide it’s all unhealthy and painful, and I pull back.
For him it’s maybe hard to know or understand, why I pull back because we don’t talk about it. He‘s not at all articulate and also most probably not really honest with himself.
Maybe your LO also fights her battles with herself concerning her own limerence or behavior to you, seeing that you both have SOs.
The worry I have for you is that you put much energy and warmth into this relationship with LO. You build a good relationship and behave amazingly, and it takes a lot out of you, I gather.
I just worry that one time you might „wake up“ and see that you neglected other things in your life that were in hindsight more important? Like your SO, or family, or work, or anything.
I don’t mean that in a moral way.
Some limerents here think that their LEs were a waste of time, and maybe I‘ll come to their point of view some time, but now I refuse to think that, I had many incomparable happy moments in my LEs, feeling loving and alive, don’t want to miss them and am glad to have got to know these fascinating people.
It could be that you will be always glad to have out so much care into this friendship.
But it could also be that you will regret to have put this LE over all other relationships and other matters in your life. That is my worry…
Sorry to reply so much, I don’t know where to reply or write.
It just seems that Lost in Space‘s post seems to have triggered me to think again about my LE that I thought is finally overcome, but raised it’s head again this week (he‘s here for a week, working at my workplace. I took the week off, but hear from colleagues that he‘s amazing, unbelievable etcetc. Doesn’t help)
I waver between thinking that this mature unselfishness of LiS is the right way, or that being a bit selfish and seeing how I get almost nothing and he gets a lot (in my counting, of course) is the right way.
I would like to be the friend who helps and sustains and makes him happy without wanting anything back.
But it seems a bit superhuman.
I mean, he does give something, his counting is different from mine, I guess. I don’t want to be so calculating and offset our „giving“ against each other „you give this so I give that“, but sometimes I feel- not used, but unbalanced, I feel foolish for giving compliments and assertions and almost never getting any in return.
Sometimes he gives something like a compliment or admission that he likes or misses me, mostly something really small , and I sense that he is very proud of his effort which makes me almost laugh. Almost.
I don’t know if I should fight to be as unselfish and caring as LiS or if I should go the „selfish“ way as a means to get out of this LE quicker.
What is the truth, is he „using“ me (unconsciously of course) to feel good, but too lazy/not caring enough to give something back, or is he as caring as he can be as the person he is (can’t show emotions very well etc) and is trying himself to get out of limerence?
I know that no one can answer that because you don’t know him or me.
I just had to write it down because it seems to help.
I know my LO definitely fights her own battles with her own feelings and that contributes a lot to her hot and cold behavior with me. She’s told me a few times in the past that she starts to feel too tempted when we’re talking every day; other times she’s told me it makes her feel too guilty and anxious. We’ve been through a bunch of these cycles now where we get pretty close (never as close as I’d like of course – she’s the more cautious one overall regarding boundaries), the closeness lasts for a month or two where we’re texting back and forth most days and talking on the phone whenever we can, and then suddenly she’ll pull away and get cold, but she won’t tell me anything, she just withdraws any affection and stops initiating any of the contact and when I initiate she either ignores completely or does the “grey rock” or “soft ghosting” thing (which hurts so much more than a flat-out rejection). And of course I can tell right away that something’s wrong, but when I ask she’s just like “nothing’s wrong, I’ve just been busy”, and then after a few weeks she finally admits she pulled back on purpose because of feeling guilty or anxious or tempted or whatever, and then we agree to leave each other alone, and then anywhere from a few days to a few weeks later she starts acting all warm and friendly again and we draw close again. It’s a really terrible cycle – I’d give anything for some consistency. And in fact this last period of warm-and-friendly had lasted almost 3 months and I thought we’d maybe reached a point of consistency, but then something suddenly changed last week and now we’re re-entering a cold cycle.
My feelings for LO are definitely not unselfish – I have strong wants and desires. I don’t want anything FROM her, I just want HER. Really I want all of her, all of the time, but since that’s clearly impossible I settle for some of her, some of the time. But I do want her time and her attention and her warmth, and it hurts badly when she withholds them, especially when I don’t even understand why.
I fall easily into a rescue fantasy with her, but really that’s not the relationship I want to have with her. What I really want is for both of us to be doing well, feeling happy, and just enjoying a close, mutually supportive and enjoyable relationship. When she’s feeling relatively happy and calm, we have that – we relate as equals who just enjoy each other, not as rescuer and damsel in distress. Neither one of us actually likes that dynamic, her especially – she’s really independent and I think hates the thought of being rescued or even if needing anyone at all, and I’ve learned that the more I try to rescue her when she’s struggling the more she pushes me away, so the only thing to do when she gets into a bad place is to occasionally check in to remind her that I still care and am here for her anytime, but otherwise just leave her alone and wait for her to come to me when she’s ready. That’s the hardest thing for me to do, but I’ve learned that it’s also the only thing.
Lost in Space,
the pattern of pulling back and coming close might be what I do a to a certain extent. I also feel it in my LO and he also would never tell me, just saying he was busy (and he probably was, who knows). Not as extreme as your LO, but still. The difference might be (if I remember right) that none if us disclosed. Telling him why I pulled back and vice versa would be a disclosure. I try to avoid disclosure although I‘m very tempted(to move things forward, to know what he feels) but I think it could be the end of all possible friendship, I don’t want that.
You say on the one hand that it‘s never close enough for you, that you want all of her, and then you say you want a consistent enjoyable relationship where both are happy. I feel that it’s mutually exclusive since you both have SOs, like us.
How do you cope with wanting more? I struggle with physical attraction, I have to say. Is this something you struggle with too, or is it something else that you want more?
A quote for today:
“How the years crept in so f a s t
and I’m no wiser because I love you still “
Have a wonderful weekend you all Limerents.
Hi Mila, sorry it took a couple days to get back to you, but I been thinking about the questions in your last post. I think we’re both in similar positions of trying to maintain friendly relationships with our LOs, despite a mountain of evidence and advice suggesting that it can just never work out. And yet here we are trying anyway…
Physical attraction is absolutely an issue for me – I’m still very physically/sexually attracted to my LO, and I most definitely want her in that way. I used to indulge in a lot of sexual fantasies about her in the past – I hardly do that at all anymore, mostly because it ends up just making me feel sad. But I do still feel a very clear physiological arousal anytime she sits near me or even when she texts me affectionate words. The physical desire is definitely still there.
But I feel like that’s actually the easiest part to deal with, because it’s so clearly over the line – I have it firmly settled in my mind that sex with LO will never happen under any circumstances, so I don’t feel a lot of angst about it. A year ago, me and her were both definitely on the edge of crossing that line, but we pulled ourselves back – we actually had some long explicit talks on the phone working through what would happen if we did give in to temptation and make love, and we both agreed that the consequences would be terrible and we’d never let ourselves cross that line. After that, we cooled ourselves off by going over 2 months without ever being alone together even for a minute, and that helped.
But that whole time, we kept talking on the phone and texting all the time, and so while the sexual desire dropped to a controllable level, the emotional connection continued to grow and deepen. And that’s the hardest part for me now – the physical attraction is easy to control because it’s a clear line that we aren’t going to cross, and that’s that, but the emotional connection issue is a lot messier. More than anything, I just want emotional closeness with her – I want us to be in contact every day, I want us to share everything with each other, I want us to have deep meaningful conversations, and I want us to express warmth and affection for each other. Sometimes we have that and it feels so good, and then when it’s withdrawn it just feels so bad.
I think your situation is really challenging because you’ve never disclosed your feelings to each other, which means you can’t have a straightforward talk about your feelings and the state of your relationship, so you’re always caught doing this dance of getting closer and then pulling away, without really understanding what the other person is feeling or the motivations for how they’re acting. That’s a lot of uncertainty and anxiety.
In my case, since we did disclose our feelings last year, we’ve had a lot of discussions about the nature of our relationship. I’ve always told her that I want to be as close to her as I can without hurting anyone else, that if she’d let me, I’d love to spend as much time as I can with her every day for the rest of my life, whether that means chatting in person, talking on the phone, texting… I’d love it if we could talk on the phone every day on her drive home from work just to talk about our days and enjoy each others’ company in the only way we have available. Obviously this is emotional affair territory, not just a regular friendship, and even though I know it’s considered wrong, it’s what I want.
At times this seems to be what LO wants too, and then at times it seems to be too much for her. Our usual pattern for almost a year now will be that we’ll be in communication pretty much every day and things feel great, then she starts to pull back but won’t say anything or acknowledge that anything’s changed, then after a few weeks she admits that she pulled back intentionally because she was feeling guilty about talking with me so much, and then we agree to cut back to only necessary work contact, and then I’m really sad, and then after some time (anywhere from a week to a couple of months) she re-initiates contact and then it quickly escalates to where we’re talking every day and being really close, and that lasts for a month or two, and then she starts pulling out again… we’ve probably done this cycle a half dozen times now. I feel like I pretty much always want the same thing and am pretty consistent and straightforward about it, while she’s caught between what she truly wants and what she feels like she should do for the sake of doing the right thing morally, so she keeps going back and forth.
I don’t know how much you know about my story, but one big complicating factor is that LO was betrayed by her SO a few years ago – she caught him cheating, she divorced him, he moved in with the other woman, then that didn’t work out and he moved back in with LO and now they’re kind of back together, kind of not, kind of trying to reconcile… anyway, her relationship with him is pretty confusing to me (she says at this point they’re basically just friends who are raising their kids together, but it’s clearly a lot more than that and I know she still loves him and also it seems like both of them aren’t supposed to be involved with other people) but I know it makes it really hard for my LO to see herself as TOW with me while having been on the other side of it with her SO, and then there’s also a big part of her that does want to fully reconcile with him despite everything, so sometimes that makes her feel like she shouldn’t talk to me either.
So anyway, I wish we could have more consistency, and I wish she could be more transparent with me about her intentions when she’s pulling away, and I guess what I really wish is that me and her could just carry on an emotional affair for years without the intensity of our feelings either diminishing or getting too strong. And I feel like I can actually manage that, but it doesn’t work like that for her (and probably not for most people) so my two choices are to either end the relationship myself (by firmly rejecting her next time she tries to get close), or to just keep riding the ups and downs of this rollercoaster, which is the choice I’ve continued to make for about a year now.
In your situation, what kind of outcome are you hoping for? Can you imagine you and your LO getting to a stable place where you both feel mostly satisfied and not too guilty and can just maintain that level long term?
Lost in Space,
I‘m just back from seeing my LO for a short time (with other people).
That kind of shook me and I feel a bit depressed.
You are right in that our situation is challenging for me.
I‘m pretty sure (knowing him for 10 years) that I am very important to him and that he is or was limerent as much as it is possible for his quite reticent personality.
But he would never admit it, I guess, because he has a certain picture of himself (and of me, maybe) in his head, and things that don’t fit into this picture don’t get a name and are not acknowledged openly.
He kind of leans back and lets me do the coming close and pulling back. He maintains a daily text contact, more than me and very consistent, but for me it‘s too lukewarm. We seldom discuss honestly personal matters. When we do, I see that it is something he‘s not at all used to.
I can only dream about conversations like the conversations you have with your LO. I think he‘s even with his SO like that.
He cannot talk well (or at all) about emotions or even recognize them as what they are and where they stem from.
I‘m sure there‘s some psychological diagnosis one could attach to his type.
But that means I‘m alone with my desire to talk openly or with my desires to cross some lines, physical or emotional. He might have those desires but will never let me know for sure.
And of course I‘m not free of thoughts that it‘s all an illusion on my part, that I‘m imagining his feelings etc., that I‘m a sad person.
He told me I should just tell him when to meet next week because he has a lot of free time, but it was again me who asked first „so when do we see each other?“
I‘m quite busy next week, but of course I want to see him- but now I‘m not so sure. I‘m exhausted somehow. I don’t want to be the one who organizes the meeting, just to sit with him for chitchat.
I never was so short of disclosing, I have to say. Not disclosing in a hopeful manner, but telling him that I just cannot go on anymore, that it‘s too much for me and it‘s better for me not to see him.
But then, he isn’t here so often anymore and next year he might me gone for good, should I not just pull myself together and try to enjoy the time that he is here without creating a drama?
Of course that‘s the best way, but I‘m really- I feel I cannot stand it so much longer.
I do understand your LO. I‘m not sure I could be like you, I would always want that bit more, I wouldn’t be able not to try physical contact, I would struggle with wanting to be Nr.1 in her/his life.
I admire your acceptance of limits. I seem to be bad at that.
„In your situation, what kind of outcome are you hoping for? Can you imagine you and your LO getting to a stable place where you both feel mostly satisfied and not too guilty and can just maintain that level long term?“
I think the only way that is possible is if I get out of that bloody limerence and cut down on feelings and desires. Which means, something has to die. That makes me a bit sad, but it‘s probably time to face the music.
Hi Mila, I can definitely understand the struggle you’re going through deciding whether or not to disclose. My own disclosure was a relatively spur-of-the-moment decision, but it was driven primarily by this incredibly intense desire to tell LO my feelings and, most importantly, to find out what she was feeling. I’d had several LEs in the past where I never disclosed and always was left wondering if the other person had feelings for me; this time around I was determined that I had to take the chance and tell her how I felt and ask her point blank if she felt the same about me.
The problem then was what comes next? It was amazing to tell LO how I felt and 100x more amazing to hear her say she felt the same. And then within seconds we were both overcome with feelings of despair, because we both had SOs and neither of us wanted to be an adulterer, so now that our feelings were disclosed, it seemed like the only thing we could do was agree to stop talking and end the relationship – that led to the first of many painful breakups followed by rekindling shortly after. It also led us dangerously close to having a physical affair a few weeks later once we’d started seeing each other again but now we both knew for sure how the other felt – I’m still amazed sometimes we made it through those first few weeks after disclosure without crossing the line physically.
So I guess the questions for you are: why do you want to disclose? and how far are you willing to go with LO if he surprises you and discloses his own feelings right back? I apologize because I think I missed the beginning of your story, but from what I understand you both have SOs, correct? If you told LO your feelings and he expressed the same to you and then indicated he wanted to just go for it, what would you do?
“And of course I‘m not free of thoughts that it‘s all an illusion on my part, that I‘m imagining his feelings etc.,”
I can totally relate to this as well – I was plagued by these feelings prior to disclosure. And the thing is, I’m STILL plagued by these thoughts – disclosure was not the cure-all I had hoped for! Nowadays whenever she goes cold or pulls back, I’m filled with all kinds of doubts – did she suddenly lose all her feelings for me? Is she over me? Or did she never actually have feelings for me? Despite a ton of evidence to the contrary, I can still get myself convinced that she never even really had feelings for me in the first place. Because this LE/EA is such a surreal thing – it’s like I’ve had this relationship for a year that in some ways is so close, so deep, so consuming, and in other ways so unreal – we’ve never spent a single minute together outside of the workplace, we limit our contact even at work, we most talk on the phone and text, I don’t have a single picture of her or of us together, no one except my psychologist and the people on LwL know anything about this relationship – it’s enough to make me feel like I’m going insane sometimes, like it’s hard to be sure what’s reality and what isn’t.
So to summarize, in my experience disclosure does not offer any guarantee that you’ll feel less doubts and uncertainties in the future.
“I do understand your LO. I‘m not sure I could be like you, I would always want that bit more, I wouldn’t be able not to try physical contact, I would struggle with wanting to be Nr.1 in her/his life.
I admire your acceptance of limits. I seem to be bad at that.”
It’s definitely not that I don’t want more, or that I’m happy accepting the limits, it’s just that I accept reality and am willing to work within the confines of reality. I know that if I cross the line sexually, I’ll probably end up losing both SO and LO – SO because she’d find out eventually and would have zero tolerance for that, and LO because I’m quite sure that her own guilt would drive her far away from me. I even told LO that once – she was asking me how I was able to show so much restraint, and I was like “i know we could make love once, and it might be amazing, but then you’d feel so guilty afterwards you’d never talk to me again – there’s no way that could be worth it.” She agreed.
Some other lines are a little harder. LO prioritizes discretion very much, which is great, but it also leads her to be very cautious, hence we rarely spend time together at work because other people might talk, and we’ve never been together outside of work. I’ve tried to push that limit a few times – most recently I tried to get her to let me take her out to lunch for her birthday recently, thinking that would seem pretty innocent for long-time coworkers, but it was a no-go for her (she didn’t actually tell me no, she just didn’t respond to my invitation text at all, which is how she often deals with me trying to push limits)
The one thing that I’m not 100% sure about is how I’d react if she aggressively came on to me, like if she just walked into my office one day and told me that she’d ended things for good with her SO and just started kissing me. In the past, she certainly sent a lot of signals and gave me plenty of opportunities to make a move, and she even told me once that if I did make a move she wouldn’t be able to resist, but she herself never tried anything overt. So I’ve never quite been tested to that extreme – I sincerely doubt she would ever do that, but I know I always do need to keep my guard up because crazy things do happen sometimes.
Finally, it sounds like you can put yourself into my LO’s shoes pretty easily… if you had to guess, what do you think she’s feeling when she goes cold? How do you think I should best approach it? Should I just hang back and wait for her to contact me again, should I keep initiating contact from time to time hoping she’ll respond more warmly, or should I just ask her to have a frank discussion about where we stand now?
“And the thing is, I’m STILL plagued by these thoughts – disclosure was not the cure-all I had hoped for!”
I can so relate to this. My LO has made little advances and moves on me which caused the glimmer. He made his physical attraction and caring for me very clear–yet for months it’s been on-off, sometimes he’s warm and sometimes I don’t hear from him for weeks. We’ve also been keeping up boundaries; we’re never all alone anymore, we don’t call, and even texting is limited. There is no interference with our SO’s. So it feels like I’m going crazy sometimes, wondering if he’s grown cold, or if I imagined it all. The thing is, I’ve known him for many years, there’s always been a little something there, and in the past couple of years I could sense things heating up. So it’s not like I could just forget him.
Lost in Space,
the difficult thing is I can tell you only what might be the case when I go cold. Your LO is maybe a completely other type of person, so please be aware that it might be not at all what she is feeling.
Me, I cannot hold the balance very well between having something(him) and not having it/him. „A little bit having but not all“ is difficult for me. So I want too much, suffer, feel also guilty and cannot bear it, so I need time off.
Either I decide as kind of pain-relief that it‘s all a waste of time and I‘m stupid, he‘s not worth it etc., or I just distance myself simply because it hurts too much to be close and still not close enough for my desire.
That’s my reason to go cold. And it could well be that one time I manage to pull through and stay away.
I‘m not sure if I tread on dangerous ground here, but maybe you misjudge her a bit concerning her guilt and her reticence- I mean, she asks you how you are able to show so much physical restraint, she tells you she couldn’t resist if you made a move… but YOU tell HER that she would feel too guilty and hate you… of course she then agrees because she doesn’t want to seem dishonest or immoral in your eyes. Maybe she struggles with her physical wants and desires and that’s why she needs some time off sometimes, or she feels not „wanted“ enough because it‘s so easy for you to restrain yourself;) only a theory that would fit my own weak personality…
Probably it’s different, could also be that she just needs time off because it‘s simply too intense to juggle two relationships!
Or that she has doubts if she shouldn’t end it all, but comes back for the affection when she needs it. Then she feels guilty for using you to feel good, pulls back etc ..
There are many possibilities, unfortunately.
Me, I communicated with my LO today, sent a voice message that was a bit confused maybe, and he took it as reproach. I corrected myself by text. I was not really disclosing, just telling him that he‘s too important in my thoughts, which would be disclosing to any other male, but not him because he‘s so naive.
He‘s now writing a lot of friendly stuff and kissing Emojis but it doesn’t help because he never answers really with something he feels himself or anything thoughtful really…
I‘m having a stressful week workwise and I think I don’t want to see him even if he‘s gone next week.
You see, this is now me getting cold again and needing a break;)
No, I will tell him honestly that it‘s too much for me emotionally (we could see each other only for a short while anyway) and of course I will reply to his texts etc.
But I need a break, if only to get through this hard week, I need my energy now for other stuff than this stupid LE. I can restart moping next Monday…
Also, I need to think. This short burst of a bit more earnest communication showed me again how he is not able to communicate what he feels, that he can send kisses but not tell me something nice about myself, that he won’t be there this weekend for my important do while I was at his.
Lost in Space, I‘m very far from your ability to lead two relationships at the same time without being shaken by conflicting desires all the time.
Doesn’t your SO suspect anything? It sounds so mind-occupying, doesn’t she feel you are partly occupied? Or maybe she wouldn’t mind as long as it is not physical?
Hi Mila, it sounds like you’re in an exhausting position with your LO and you feel very frustrated and dissatisfied. What do you think it is that you actually want from him? If he declared his feelings for you in a straightforward manner, would you feel satisfied then just knowing for sure how he felt? Do you think you could never be satisfied without a sexual relationship with him? Would you want the two of you to actually leave your SOs and start a new life with you and LO? It seems unlikely that he’s going to allow any of that to happen anyway, but imagining for a minute that you could design any outcome you wanted for this situation, what is it that you would actually want?
To clarify something about my situation, LO definitely brought up the feelings of guilt on her own. Right from the start she told me that she felt really guilty about having feelings for another woman’s husband – she’s never seemed too bothered by the idea of cheating on her SO and I’m pretty sure if I was single she’d have left him for me a year ago, but she’s always felt really bad about my SO, even though she’s never met her. She feels like there should be a code between women not to mess with each others’ men, and she’s really horrified by the thought of hurting my wife. Having been betrayed by her own husband in the past, she’s very aware of the pain that can cause, and I think that’s the main reason she’s been so conscious of boundaries in our relationship.
I think for both me and LO, fear of hurting my SO is by far the biggest reason we’ve never allowed things to go any further. But… it hasn’t been enough to make us call things off completely either. We’ve basically decided together that we’re going to accept enough boundaries to minimize the chances of ever getting found out, and then try to still enjoy as much of a relationship with each other as we can within those boundaries. So we only text/call each other while we’re at work, we delete our texts before going home, we don’t show any signs of our relationship around coworkers, we don’t ever spend time together outside of work – basically avoid anything that would call any attention to ourselves in any way. And of course, no sex – can’t even consider that.
As long as we stick to those boundaries, we get to enjoy some sort of relationship with each other, even though it never feels like enough. We absolutely love talking with each other and can talk for hours when given the chance, but most of our conversations are limited to like 15 minutes once or twice a week, and otherwise we chat back and forth by text. We maybe sit and talk in person like once or twice a month. It’s unsatisfying and not what I really want and I’m pretty sure not what she really wants, but it still seems better to either of us than just cutting ties completely, so we just carry on like we do and make the best of it.
My SO has no idea. I’m sure of that. She would be shocked if she found out. I’m very good at compartmentalizing, very good at discretion, plus I’ve always been pretty spacey and introverted and in my own head a lot, so it’s not weird at all for me to be lost in thought – I’ve been like that forever. If anything, she notices that I come home in really good moods sometimes after work – typically on days when I got to have a long after-work phone call with LO before heading home. On those days I usually feel pretty elated, and the good mood lasts all evening at home with SO and the kids.
I have my moments of feeling really guilty, mostly if I imagine SO finding out. Usually though, I find myself believing that the EA is ok somehow, because I can tell myself that LO and I have enough boundaries that we aren’t hurting anyone, that my relationship with her doesn’t take anything away from SO, and that my relationship with LO is basically just a really warm and supportive friendship, if you ignore the underlying feelings. The one thing I can say is that since I started this LE, my relationship with SO is objectively better than it has been in many years and she’s happier than she’s been in years – so that helps me feel like it’s all ok somehow.
I think all of the reasons you listed for LO’s hot and cold behavior likely apply to her sometimes. I’m sure this relationship is pretty hard on her sometimes, even if she’s also getting a lot out of it. I think a big difference between us is that my SO is actually pretty great and we have a fundamentally good relationship, while LO has a pretty bad relationship with her SO, so I can imagine the self-restraint can be harder for her sometimes when she has less to lose and more to gain than I do if she and I did go further.
I also think that LO does just get mentally drained sometimes and needs a break. Like you wrote “But I need a break, if only to get through this hard week, I need my energy now for other stuff than this stupid LE”. My LO is really busy with a stressful job + full time nursing school + caring for 3 kids and 3 pets and a home, all with minimal support from her SO, so sometimes I think she’s just totally drained and doesn’t even have the mental/emotional energy for even a quick text or phone call with me. And then I feel bad, start thinking things like “how could she not want to talk with me all week if she really cares about me”, but probably the reality is that even if contact with me mostly makes her feel good, it probably does drain her emotionally sometimes so it makes sense that she’d just need a break sometimes.
Finally, I’ll add that I texted back and forth with LO a bit today and it was friendly, and she called me after work and we talked for a few minutes before she had to get off the phone to pick up her teenage daughter from school (another barrier that limits our contact), but before hanging up she told me that tomorrow she wants to stop by my office because she has a little gift she wants to give me (she told me what it is, it’s nothing inappropriate). So I guess we’re still good and I just overreacted last week. I think if anything, this LE might eventually teach me some lessons about not overreacting and getting too carried away with my emotions because I’ve always been pretty emotional and reactive (as an INFP, introverted feeling is my primary cognitive function) and I’m doing a lot of work now on trying to slow down and be more analytical and thoughtful and patient before reacting to my emotions – that focus has actually helped me a lot this year in my relationship with SO as well.
LiS,
I‘m with you on the topic of overreacting since a had a (from my side)emotionally charged text exchange yesterday evening (it’s morning here, I guess we are in a different time zone?) and feel a bit bad about now, but also a bit relieved.
I told him (again, as I did already one time) that I have problems with his dry manner, that he never tells me anything nice or uplifting- for example I’m doubting myself at work and tell him, and he doesn’t reassure me at all by telling me that I can do it or similar. I only can assume that he thinks I cannot do it.
Of course I know that this is not the case! That’s the thing: I know that he is like that, that he‘s really bad at compliments etc, that of course he likes my work. But I want to hear it. He‘s my friend, I give him a lot of reassurance and compliments, and he almost never gives them back.
He told me that he doesn’t hear the criticism for the first time and from several people in his life.
But now I feel bad and needy, because I don’t have a right to get these things from him. I know how he is and I keep expecting him to be different because I put way too much importance on it.
I overreacted on his being dry about several things yesterday which led to the text exchange and also to me telling him it’s better not to see each other until he‘s back. Which is probably also overreacting.
He is always understanding but still giving very little information about his own emotions.
I thought about what you asked- I don’t want to be with him instead of SO. I love my SO and think he‘s actually more wonderful than LO.
I also don’t want him to separate from his SO because she’s actually great for him and he needs her, I think.
In some phases my physical desire is strong and, as your LO said, I probably couldn’t resist if he made a move. but I would never initiate something myself.
This is related to have some issues in this area with my SO, and I know it.
So I don’t want a PA with him, I also think it wouldn‘t work because he would feel immensely guilty and would tell his SO and all hell would break loose.
What I want at the moment is actually what you seem to have: a warm relationship where there is mutual warmth and assurance and both know how important they are for the other one.
At the moment I‘m just feeling insecure about myself and seek reassurance from LO which is not fair on him. I try to curb it. He‘s not my SO or parent or in any way responsible for my self-esteem.
You sound as if you are in a good place with everything at the moment.
@Mila
Your emotional rollercoaster seems very similar to mine. I kind of have a four emotion cycle that I seem stuck in that plays on a loop. I eventually get struck with warm feelings towards LO and start to engage with her personally over a couple weeks period in hopes of building more relationship with her. This usually leads to frustration and agitation when she does not reciprocate to my liking and the actual relationship ultimately seems unsatisfying to me. At this point I go through a couple day period of anger where where I flip and act cold towards LO. After the anger subsides I start to feel self pity and become highly introspective of my actions and determine that I need to disengage from LO for reasons of self care. After a couple weeks the self pity turns into melancholy as I just plainly miss engaging with LO and I start to warm up to her again. Wash, rinse, repeat.
I should say that during this whole time LO never really changes her behavior. She always remains constant in her emotions and actions towards me. It is me that gets caught up in this emotional dance around her.
Right now, I am coming out of a anger state, currently in a self pity state and determined to stay disengaged from her. We shall see.
Speedwagon,
exactly.
That‘s what I‘m doing, dancing the emotional dance around him while he stays in the same place.
I think your stages of the dance are approximately the same as mine.
What‘s new this time is that I told him that I cannot bear it at the moment and cannot see him. I‘m not sure if he fully understands what it is that I cannot bear. I guess he thinks I simply cannot bear his behavior (not saying nice and supportive things) and I think he is feeling bad. Which makes me sad.
Usually I would fall into the melancholy stage now. But I have this important do on Sunday and I‘m determined to not let this LE distract me now. I actually already apologized for my outburst yesterday, he responded that there‘s nothing I should apologize for but that he- now I‘m at a loss to translate. It means that it is bothering him a lot, he‘s struggling with it.
I replied again that I’m sorry, but that was it, and I don’t think I will text again now before Sunday, or should I?
I don’t want to punish him, I know that it‘s all my fault and I‘m expecting stuff from him only because I‘m limerent. I still had to slam on the brakes now, I cannot see him now or think too much about this apart from venting here.
Do you also feel that the only way to get out of this circle dance is to feel less for this person?
How to manage that without vilifying him/her?
“Do you also feel that the only way to get out of this circle dance is to feel less for this person?
How to manage that without vilifying him/her?”
Yes, I really am trying to feel less for LO. I’m not sure vilifying her helps that though, it just helps me keep less engaged with her. The feelings still remain. But it’s really hard to vilify my LO because for the most part, she is just neutral with me rather than proactively doing something to upset me. So I try to vilify her neutrality but its hardly much to vilify.
I just think I need to keep trying to stay somewhat disengaged from her and give it a lot of time. That’s the only way I see my feelings starting to fade, maybe??? Unless something unexpected happens that discharges the limerence. I’ve wondered before if she had actual mutual feelings for me and all of a sudden pursued me would it discharge my feelings? Am I addicted to the fantasy of her? I’ve read about that happening in a few peoples stories here. But I’m not counting on that, it’s just my limerent brain hoping for her to want me.
Today LO asked to see me for a minute and she gave me a slightly belated bday gift, something really sweet and thoughtful that she got me based on her remembering a little comment I’d made a month ago about something I wanted to try. She apologized for it being late but I just thought it was really sweet, and then I felt really foolish for how I was being last week, getting all upset and feeling that she didn’t care about me anymore because she hadn’t had time/energy to talk for a week while meanwhile she was waiting for this thoughtful gift she’d ordered to arrive in the mail so she could give it to me to show me she cared…
It was also a good reminder that people are different and have different emotional and cognitive styles and different love languages, which can cause so much misunderstanding and hurt feelings to occur (especially when every little thing takes on supersized importance through the magnifying lens of limerence). Like for Mila, it sounds like your LO really does care about you, which he shows by texting you every day and being your friend for 10 years, even if he doesn’t have the emotional language to show his care in the ways that you’d like him to.
Have you and your LO compared your MBTI types? I know I’m probably a little too into this right now, but it really did help me so much when my LO and I both took the test and learned about our types and how they tend to interact with each other – suddenly so much of the misunderstandings we’d had just started to make sense. In your case Mila, I’m guessing your LO is an IxTx, one of the types that just doesn’t overtly show a lot of emotion and feeling, and that’s just his ingrained cognitive type and it’s how he is and he can’t really change it if he wants to (and you certainly can’t change it), but it doesn’t mean he doesn’t have deep emotions and feelings and that he doesn’t care about you, he just doesn’t show it in the same way that a feeling-dominant type might.
Today I was also feeling acutely just how limited an emotional affair is, even under the best of circumstances. LO met me quickly in the parking lot to give me the gift, and I really wanted to give her a hug but I couldn’t because someone might see it, and I wanted to stand there and chat with her for awhile but she had to get back to work, so basically we spent like 30 seconds together and then sent a few nice texts back and forth later and that was it for the day. So as nice as it was to receive this thoughtful gift from her, it also made me so sad that I couldn’t even give her a hug or just talk with her for awhile, and that the best I can hope for is that maybe one day this week she won’t have to pick up her teenage daughter after work so we can spend the whole hour of her commute talking on the phone, and maybe she’ll bring me some paperwork once this week and we’ll get to smile at each other for a couple seconds, and if I’m really lucky maybe one time in the next month she’ll feel comfortable coming to sit with me in my office for 20 minutes to chat chat and we can hug for a few seconds before she leaves. There’s a pretty big mismatch between the strength of my feelings and the amount of meaningful interaction I get to have with her, but of course that’s just the way it’s gotta be.
To end this post by tying it back to the topic of jealousy, I think Mila and Speedwagon are jealous of how affectionate my LO is to me sometimes, and I’m jealous that you both actually get to spend a few hours of quality time with your LOs sometimes (something I’ve NEVER done and probably never will do) and we’re all jealous of our LOs’ SOs, and our LOs’ SOs would be jealous of us if they knew that our LOs were giving at least a little part of their hearts to us. So much jealousy!!
Lost in space,
firstly, I met my LO today for a snatched hour even though I told him that I don’t want to see him – my roller coaster again.
He texted me asking if he’s allowed to ask how everything is going with my work do or if he should leave me alone etc, and I felt guilty and wanted to apologize for my outburst yesterday.
We talked and although I still talked much more than him it was very warm and good, I feel good now.
Disclosure hung in the air on both sides but didn’t happen as such, although I think that it wouldn’t be that huge step from what is already clear to both of us, that we like each other extremely.
What was interesting was that I kind of interrupted or distracted him when there seemed to be a danger of him disclosing.
I think as much as I crave his reciprocation, I also fear it.
He sent me a MBTI test a few months ago where I tested differently from a few weeks ago on this site, but I remember that he told me that he is ISFJ, and I tested INFJ (the next was ISFJ, too.)
But I don’t think the description of ISFJ fits him that well (not does it fit me in some aspects).
But it seems we answered the questions in a similar manner.
We have many common traits but are also different in many aspects.
We definitely don’t have the same love language.
As to jealousy, I’m not jealous of your LE, I’m a bit envious that your LO seems to be able to articulate her feelings, but I’m also glad for you.
As for his SO, I’m not jealous of her place at his side, but still jealous of affection that she might get from him that I don’t get. Sometimes I’m jealous and sometimes not at all. But I do feel guilty sometimes even though nothing happened and she knows and accepts our friendship.
Speedwagon,
as I wrote to LiS, I met my LO today and even described my emotional dance around him that you inspired with your imagery. He said that the intervals seem to get shorter in between the phases… I wonder if that means my limerence is getting better or worse?
I think it’s doubtful that your limerence would immediately fade away the instant she reciprocated. It would hang around at least for enough time to do much damage. In the course of events you actually might discover that she’s not as wonderful and unique as you thought, but at first it won’t change the chemical reaction to her, I guess, that takes some time.
But maybe I’m wrong, maybe she would disclose in a manner that would open your eyes to what you really don’t want? or you would realize that all you wanted was that she wanted you, and since that goal is achieved, you are satisfied and limerence is over?
Maybe you could even know the truth now if you imagine her disclosure and all after effects and listen into yourself…
@LIS: I’m jealous that you talk directly with your LO about your feelings, while you’d probably be jealous that I can hug my LO openly! 🙂
Hello Mila and all, I have been away with work and trying to use the trip to break limerence which encompasses LwL too. Some success with that , the dial is turned down a bit when in a different place and situation distracting the mind from LO mostly but of course not entirely. I have been catching up on this thread on my plane trip home. The limerence hot cold dance eh ! So familiar, at least you have had some proper conversation/ exchanges over it which hopefully will help you/him understand each others perspective more going forwards. Very best wishes for your big Sunday thing is really what I want to say !!! Not sure what it is but I’m sure you will ace it !! 😀 X
IMHO,
Welcome back, I’m glad that being away helped you to distance yourself a bit!
Thank you for thinking of me! it actually went quite well yesterday, not everything like I wanted it to be, but still a success.
I‘m a bit scared to be recognized by someone I know, that’s why I don’t really want to tell what my job is, sorry…
My LO/friend was quite sweet in texting me the encouraging things I accused him never to send me at least twice before the event and also immediately asked how it went etc.
I really appreciate that because he took me and my complaints seriously even though limerence was speaking out of me and I felt bad and unfair about it.
Gosh Mila, this thread is so long I have to scroll for ages to figure out how to reply to you. Thanks for your message. So glad your ‘thing’ went well overall. I totally respect you don’t wanna share details that may be revealing. Glad your LO / friend came good in the end and gave the support a friend should! Maybe the challenges you gave him was the right thing, and maybe such direct ‘confrontation’ will help disipate your LE ? I don’t know my LO well enough to have such an open challenge. That’s because you are first and foremost friends , good to always remember that and try to go back to these roots.
Anyway it seems like you are in a good place and some clear air. Maybe some space now to see the impact on your limerence and view of situation after so much intensity over recent days. And breathe ! I had quite an interesting incident/insight that happened in relation to my business trip that I may share in a new thread. Probably in the coffeehouse per Dr. L rules…Best wishes for a relaxed week for you
IMHO,
Now I‘m curious:)!
Serial limerent – yes indeed! I am very jealous of anyone who gets to hug their LO more than a few times a year, anyone who gets to go out to lunch with their LO, anyone who gets to talk with their LO for more then 15 minutes once or twice a week… between the rules and boundaries we’ve set for ourselves, the boundaries imposed by our lives, and her fearful/avoidant attachment style, our relationship is doomed to be perpetually unsatisfying and frustrating. I find myself having more frequent thoughts lately about wanting to just put an end to it. I’m not there yet, and I’m not sure if I ever will be or not, but it’s definitely been on my mind more and more, and I’m intentionally spending time with those thoughts to just imagine what it would be like to not be limerent for her some day. Maybe that’s progress 🤷♂️
*but never enough for my limerent soul
*that you have put so much care
(Which probably isn’t good English anyway)
So an interesting turn of events happened, my wife might be an LO. She was hit on by a married coworker this week. This is a man she sees maybe once or twice a month and has to talk on the phone with every couple days for work purposes. She had been sensing a vibe from him lately, he was always overly nice and encouraging, and a bit too conversational, but this week after seeing her he said something affectionate/romantic oriented to her that definitely had intent and crossed a professional line. My wife has zero interest and the whole thing creeps her out. She also told me right away. Wow…mind blown!
It is so weird and sobering to see LE from a different vantage point. This man is not a player, according to my wife he is a nice guy who is a bit awkward. I’m actually not upset, more curious if anything. From my perspective, he must be dealing with some deep infatuation. This has caused me to be quite introspective about my own LE and behavior towards LO and also about her response compared to my wife. A few pertinent questions has arose…
Did my LO tell her husband when I disclosed? I assumed she has not, but the fact my wife could not wait to tell me has me questioning that. It makes me feel rather sheepish and pathetic and I dread the thought of LO and her husband sitting around joking about my crush on her.
Also, my wife feels quite creeped out now and wants nothing to do with this guy. She is dreading talking with him next and wants to distance herself from him. After my disclosure, my LO has stayed very warm with me and in my presence. Why? Why is she also not creeped out? Why did she not distance herself? Does she actually like my interest in her? Juxtaposed to my wife my LOs behavior is confusing to me and perpetuates my uncertainty.
Also, my wife is so loyal to me in this circumstance and I have been so disloyal with her in my pursuit of my LO. My guilt is staring me in the face right now.
Moving forward, my wife let her boss know, and they are going to let his comment slide this time. If it happens again my wife is going to give him a stern warning to knock it off. If it happens a third time, HR gets to know and he probably loses his job.
For me, I must admit, there is something a bit sexy about knowing my wife is desired by another man yet she is mine and only wants to be mine. That’s a really nice reality that I should not take for granted.
That’s interesting Speedwagon! Turn of events!!!Uff, how do you like them apples 🍎, your SO as a LO ? It’s really mind bugging to think your LO might have told her husband about you… but is so, how come she still warm to you? Nah , she didn’t tell him, she’s wise and likes your attention and caring, whether
she likes to admit
it or not. I wouldn’t tell my husband at all. I’d enjoy the “special “ attention without getting involved! I don’t remember who said it, “ a woman biggest desire is to be desired”. Don’t overthink it.
Have a peaceful and blessed weekend.
Correction: a woman wants to be desired all right if he’s the right man , of her liking.
That is what my husband said, too! When I disclosed my shame about my EA with LO1, my husband said, “This might sound weird, but I’m even more attracted to you now that another man is interested. I don’t know why I feel this way.” He also took pride in the fact that LO1 is so successful and tried to mate-poach me, yet I remained loyal to my SO. I think my SO felt like it says something about his mate value. Like, “Wow, she chose me over him.”
Speedwagon, attractive women get vibes from men constantly. They can’t distance themselves from every man that shows interest because they will not be able to function in society. I don’t think it is wise to read anything into the difference between your wife’s reaction and your LO’s reaction. The bottom line is that your wife’s suitor made her uncomfortable enough that she took action. It sounds like your LO isn’t threatened by you. I think she feels like she can manage it on her own. Also, your wife has more life experience than your LO. I really don’t think you should compare their reactions to draw any conclusions about your LO’s feelings towards you. She has been clear, in my opinion, she likes your personality and likes to be around you until she thinks you are getting too close, then she pulls away. She is trying not to trigger your feelings, but she is also trying to exist in the same space as you. It’s hard. She is doing her best. She might not get it right every time, but she’s trying. Remember that WOMEN LOVE TO BE CLOSE TO THE PEOPLE THEY LIKE, IT ISN’T SEXUAL MOST OF THE TIME!!! Your LO likes you and she likes to feel connected with you, but then she gets reminded of how it affects you and she pulls away because SHE DOESN’T WANT TO LEAD YOU ON.
Sorry for the all caps. I know your head is spinning right now and it’s hard to process information. I think you should take it as a compliment that your LO feels like she can handle the situation herself. It means she doesn’t feel threatened by you and you are interesting enough to put some effort into maintaining a connection despite your feelings for her.
I think you should lean into the attraction to your wife. Use this to strengthen and enjoy your marriage. Woowoo! The wife is still a hottie! You better prove to her that you are the better choice. I’m thinking you could make her breakfast in bed. That’s what my SO is doing right now.
Speedwagon, I want to tell you a story that I think might help you understand why your LO seems hot and cold.
Our family does a lot of camping with a group of friends. Two of my husband’s closest friends are part of that group. One of them showed interest in me when he found out that I accepted my husband’s marriage proposal, he asked me to decline and marry him instead. There was an odd incident with the other one during our summer camp this year (actually a few odd incidents) that left me wondering what in the world was going on. Then, at our fall camp, I mentioned to the two of them that the reason my SO and I quit Facebook was because I was Facebook stocked on my SO’s account. They both went awkwardly silent. In my mind, I was like, “Oh shoot! Now what?” Suddenly, I knew why those strange incidents happened during summer camp. I guess they are both attracted to me, now what? Well, I’m not going to say anything to anyone about it. I don’t really care if they are attracted to me (well, I kinda wish they weren’t), but as long as everyone behaves, it doesn’t matter. Here is the thing. Of course I will trigger their hero instinct. I need them! They are strong and they make me feel safe. I ask for help when I need it. I like to be close to one of my trusted men as much as possible because it makes me feel safe. Let me tell you what I mean by that. When I use the restroom at night, I get scared walking to the bathroom. I think, “I’m within earshot of SO, he will hear me scream.” Then as I get further from SO, “I’m within earshot of friend A, he will hear me scream.” Then, of course, friend B. And the same thoughts when I return to my tent. My trusted men make me feel safe. They are both on my list of trusted men. I never want to make these men miserable or lead them on in any way. Thank goodness they both respect my SO and would never cross boundaries with me. I think it doesn’t matter how they feel as long as they behave, which they do. They always behave. So I feel comfortable getting close to them: teasing when I win a card game or complimenting their yummy pancakes. As long as everyone behaves, I don’t have to tell my husband or go cold. Does that make sense?
I think your LO is in a similar situation with you. She wants you around. She likes having you in her life. As long as everyone behaves, it doesn’t matter if someone is struggling with feelings of attraction.
FYI, as far as your wife’s reaction is concerned, that makes sense, too. When I get vibes from a man, I almost never say anything to anyone about it. If the guy is bold, I might feel annoyed, threatened or amused. Then I might say something. You would be surprised by what men are willing to say to a woman. One time a stranger approached me in the grocery store and checked my hand. He said, “Okay, I see you are married. I’m not trying to pick you up, but I have to say you are the perfect woman. If I had a machine to create the perfect woman, you are exactly who I would create.” Then he started guessing my dimensions including my bra size. He asked if he was off. He was disturbingly close. I thought his behavior was odd, but not threatening so I took it as a compliment.
I hope that helps.
Hey Speedwagon, interesting that this happened this week while we’re all posting on the topic of jealousy… sounds like in some ways you got to experience a dream scenario here – you learned that your SO is desirable to other men (increasing her sexiness level), you learned that she’s loyal and won’t indulge that kind of stuff, and you got to feel her choose you all over again. That’s actually all gotta feel pretty good.
I can also imagine your feelings of guilt watching your wife show so much loyalty to you, and also your feelings of embarrassment thinking about your relationship with your LO from a new perspective. Those would be hard feelings to sit with.
I’ve thought a lot as well about what it would feel like to be on the other side, to have my wife interested in someone else. This isn’t quite that scenario because it’s sounds pretty clear that she shut it down, but do you find yourself wondering at all if she could have a little interest in him that she isn’t going to let herself indulge? Do you wonder at all if she was sending him some sort of signals that lead him to act the way he did? I’m pretty sure I’d be wondering if I was in your shoes. Does this make it easier to imagine what it would be like if you found out she was actually attracted to someone else or even secretly involved with someone else? Does this change your feelings about your own LE?
LIS,
As LO #4 said in her goodbye,
“I’ve been trying to put myself in your wife’s shoes. How would you feel if she were corresponding with a man she was attracted to in the same capacity [odd word] as you write to me. If you have to hide our correspondence from your wife, it’s not good.”
When my wife thought LO #4 might be interested in me, she didn’t find me more attractive, she went to DEFCON 3. Every antenna she had went up.
It might work for some people, it won’t work for others.
L.E. – did your wife realize at the time that you were also attracted to LO4 and had been carrying on a long correspondence with her? I’d guess that the balance between attraction/pride vs jealousy/defensiveness depends a lot on how secure the spouse feels in the situation.
In Speedwagon’s case, his wife made it clear that she wasn’t interested and shut it down immediately, so he gets to experiencing primarily pride and attraction. In Lovisa’s case, she admitted to her attraction/limerence but made it really clear she won’t ever cross any lines and her SO believes her, so I’d guess he probably experiences a mix of attraction and jealousy. In the case of your SO with your LO4, I’d guess she knew you had feelings and she wasn’t entirely sure what lines you’d be willing to cross, so her reaction was entirely defensive.
I know that’s how it’s been with my SO – if a woman (or a man for that matter) who isn’t a threat at all demonstrates attraction to me, then she laughs and tells me she likes having such a sexy husband. But when she sees the other woman as a threat, it’s pure defensiveness and jealousy, like when I had LO3 over for dinner with my family a few years back and our connection was really obvious – that triggered nothing but negative feelings in SO because she could sense my feelings and felt very threatened.
LE,
“When my wife thought LO #4 might be interested in me, she didn’t find me more attractive, she went to DEFCON 3. Every antenna she had went up.”
What if her response had been different? My situtation was quite different than yours. I already had one foot out the door. But when I was dating that LO who wanted to get married, we went to a party and ran into a woman. It was obvious something had happened between them. She was less than subtle. And it had to have happened during our relationship because he had recently relocated for work, so he’d only been in this city for a few months.
And I never said a word. Didn’t react at all. Acted as if it never happened.
But when I did finally pull the plug on the relationship (a few months later, for a number of reasons, not just this woman), I thought: You are free to do whatever you want, with whomever you want, but it ain’t going to be with me.
Marcia,
“What if her response had been different?”
I don’t quite understand your question.
My wife has always given me a long leash but she’s always kept an eye on me.
When I started grad school, she asked if there were any attractive women in my classes. I told her that there were. She asked if any of them were married. I asked her what difference that made because I’m married. She liked that answer.
I lost a lot of weight over one winter and grew a beard. The next summer we were at a swim meet and one of the other moms said I was rocking my new look. The look on my wife’s face said that she hadn’t considered that another woman might find me attractive.
When my LE with LO #4 was peaking, I was leaking like a sieve. My wife flat out asked me if LO #4 was interested in me. Thank God that she didn’t ask that question the other way around. I could honestly respond to my wife, “I don’t think so.” When LO #4 sent me her FB friend request, my wife told me to accept it. She said it would be rude for me to deny it. I think the real reason my wife told me to accept it was that if I was behind LO #4’s wall, so was she and she could assess the threat.
Less than I week after I accepted LO #4’s friend request, I had a dream about her that I almost drove my car off a washed out bridge and by close, I mean that one more revolution of the front tires and I’d have been over the edge. When I told that story to the EAP counselor, her response was that it didn’t take a gypsy to figure out that dream.
My wife considered LO #2 a threat 35 years ago and that has never changed. My wife told me that there was only one person out there that she didn’t want me to be friends with or re-engage, LO #2. After I came clean about my LE/EA with LO #4, there are two people on that list.
LE,
“What if her response had been different?” … I don’t quite understand your question.”
What if, instead of going DEFCON, she had told you to go ahead and go after LO#4? You were free to do what you wanted, but she wasn’t going to hang around.
As I wrote … I was already half way out the door when I found out about the other woman he was seeing. Or had seen. Who knows? I’m not sure what my resposne would have been had I been more invested.
The cheated-on party is ususally expected to scream and yell. But what if they just walk?
Marcia,
What if the cheated on party just walks?
Then they walk.
That’s the advice my twice divorced father gave me before he died.
The responses are on a spectrum. Some people think the relationship is worth fighting for at all cost. Some people use it as their justification to immediately cut and run. Other people fall somewhere in between. My wife thought the relationship was worth fighting for. I had no intention of testing where that limit was.
My attitude has always been if my SO thinks she would be happier somewhere else with someone else, that’s where she should be and who she should be with. It goes along with that there is nobody that I can’t live without. If my wife took off on me, I’d miss her but I have no doubt that I’d regroup and go on.
When LO #2 admitted that she wanted to look around some more and if she didn’t find anything she liked better she might come back and settle for me, I let her go find him.
I made it crystal clear that she couldn’t come back if she didn’t.
If my marriage ended this afternoon, that attitude will likely never change.
If LO #2 ever tried to rengage me, I’d think she came back because she was really desperate, had nothing to lose, and didn’t find anything she liked better.
LE,
“My attitude has always been if my SO thinks she would be happier somewhere else with someone else, that’s where she should be and who she should be with. ”
But she wouldn’t have been walking because she found someone else. She’d have been walking because you did.
Marcia,
I’ve never thought I’d be happier with someone else.
LO #4 got inside my head when she shouldn’t have and that was a problem. Because of how she behaved and the circumstances in my life, LO #4 was the right woman in the right place at the right time to hit me in my blind spot. It’s not an excuse, it’s an explanation.
When things were looking bleak for us, my wife asked me if I still wanted to be married to her. I looked her in the eye and said, “I don’t know.”
I told her that I didn’t think that I’d be happier somewhere else with someone else, I told her that I wasn’t happy with the way things were. All I knew for certain was that things would be different.
I told her that at least if there was someone else, at least I’d be running to somewhere and someone as opposed to just running away.
Sad, but true.
LE,
I’m saying that it’s often expected that the SO who discovers their partner’s side shenanigans, for lack of a better description, will scream and yell and make demands and dig in further to maintain the relationship.
But the SO may make a different move and remove themselves from the relationship altogether. It wouldn’t be a matter of what the limerent wants. The SO could make the decision for them.
Marcia,
I agree with you.
As an adult with agency, an SO can unilaterally decide to remove themselves from the relationship. Several posters on LwL did just that, Lee being the most notable.
Apparently, my indiscretion didn’t rise to that degree of response.
LE,
“Apparently, my indiscretion didn’t rise to that degree of response.”
I’m not saying it should have. That’s for your wife to decide.
It’s for the couple to decide together. What is or is not “crossing the line.” I’d be really, really ticked off if my SO made that decision for us without discussing it … and also proceeded to act on his decision.
@ Lovisa…thanks for all your great insight. You are so gifted at conveying a woman’s perspective. It’s hard for my man brain to conceive a middle ground and not just think of attraction as black and white. But I am better understanding the desire for some level of closeness and warmth without desiring romance and her setting those boundaries accordingly. With my LO, she seems more free to be warm with me at the office face to face but she is very guarded with any out of office texting. My issue is, I desire the away from the office interaction with her because the office can be limiting but I have to accept that is a boundary of hers and get past it.
@LIS…I am positive my wife was not giving off any flirty signals other than professional friendliness. We had a whole discussion on her behavior the last couple years trying to figure out the signals she gave off. They never texted, had mild personal conversations concerning work matters and light personal talk and she said that she always talked about “us” when he would ask about her weekend or such. I think he was just extremely bold.
But yes, it does feel good to know how definitively she chooses me. But wow, what a sobering experience to make me evaluate my own LE and behavior. A splash of cold water in the face. My wife is an amazing woman, and I think she is objectively sexier at middle age than when we got married in our 20s. I definitely want to capitalize on this experience to grow closer with her.
Hi Speedwagon, very interesting indeed. Certainly makes one reflect from a different perspective doesn’t it, if we have been an LO in the past and if our SO is also an LO or even limerent themselves for another . eek !
Thinking of your SO, I have had a few coworkers crush on me (over many years. I certainly don’t have a stream of men falling for me like Lovisa or Marcia). I don’t think I was very mindful of their feelings and the truth is I probably courted the attention of those I liked and I should have acted better and more responsible in hindsight. Anyway the incident with your SO is a good wake up call and indeed gives perspective. I personally think it may have been a bit unfair for your SO to react so quickly to tell you and her boss if it was his first time and the comment was affectionate not sexual and he is not a player. It could be he just got caught up in emotion and spilled but is an honourable person. He obviously didn’t ‘read the room’ first though. I never told my SO ( why worry him over a nobody) or my bosses about any approaches that I got, as I addressed it in person with them, sensitively and/or assertively depending on the individual and circumstance. I respect the privacy of things that are said 121 in confidence and of a personal nature (as long as respectful). If any of them had continued to pursue me afterwards, then of course I would have told my boss and SO.
Like you, I would be very upset if my LO had told others of what I said to him ! I don’t think so, as there is mutual fondness that he was the first to instigate. So best not to compare, but certainly good to reflect on this. We are in a real world with real people and real situations and SOs who love us and we love them, and we need to try to come down from our limerent fantasy world ….?
Thanks for the compliment, Speedwagon. I get a lot of insight from the LwL men, too. You are good at communicating the male perspective.
About LO’s texting…I can see why it’s hard, but you are the one who set texting boundaries with her, remember? She knows it affects you and she doesn’t want to hurt you. I think she is trying to be respectful of your feelings.
But on a more important topic… that wife of yours is sexy, right? You better earn her attention before someone else tries to take your place. wink.
@speed and @Lovisa
I love Lovisa’s response here. I can relate to a lot of what she’s written. I’d just add one thing that could be unique to me because of my neurodivergence.
Something that really triggers me is when the whole thing makes no sense. I think that’s the slight autism. My brain needs the science behind the attraction so then I can address it. As I’ve said before, I have great ‘chemistry’ with a lot of people including women and children. It is not about attraction. It’s about connection. If it’s with a guy I’m attracted to, I’d refer to it as maybe ‘sexual’ or ‘romantic’ chemistry. I am not your typically beautiful woman. I put minimal effort into my appearance so when men who clearly value image show interest in me, I feel very triggered. I may have sexual chemistry with them, but I know very well that they are overlooking a part of me that will bother them eventually. I will not suddenly start wearing makeup or doing my nails because he likes women who look a certain way. I make these judgments based on how he looks, but also based on his past partners (often featured in very glamourous social media posts). Other issues include being the wrong gender (surely my lack of a penis would be an issue eventually if you’re gay??), being far more intellectual than they are, or being far more liberal than they are. For some reason, when these men are interested in me it scares me because I don’t understand it. If we have zero chemistry (as it sounds like your SO and her colleague, Speedwagon), then I’m creeped out. Yuck. If we have chemistry but it’s not sexual on my part, I’d enjoy being friends with them but I’m now very wary of sending mixed messages. Since learning here that it could really mess with their head, I’m a lot more cautious. I listened to Emeritus’ advice and I’m trying hard to keep more boundaries in place.
If it’s also sexual chemistry on my part, it can get VERY confusing. That’s when I KNOW I should back off but I find it very hard to do so. That’s when I’m at risk of limerence myself. I think I’m back here because of a situation I’m in currently at my new gym. I’m trying to think my way out of it so it doesn’t turn into limerence on my part and I’m trying to understand why on earth he approached me so quickly.
So my new way of dealing with it all is to talk openly and unemotionally about it. I’m not ashamed of feeling attracted to someone. Chemistry is NOT compatibility and I’m old enough to know the difference. Like Lovisa said, I keep sending mixed messages because I’m trying to guide them to the relationship I want with them without actually just communicating that because sometimes it’s not possible to do that. In your case, Speedwagon, your LO knows how you feel, right? Now I know how limerence can torment people and destroy marriages, I’d distance myself from you if I were in her shoes. But, as usual, that’s probably one of my autistic traits. Admiration and approval doesn’t mean much to me unless it’s from very specific people (but as Lovisa says, maybe your admiration does mean a lot to her, and she really doesn’t want to hurt your marriage).
I think my hyper-independence is also what drives some people a bit crazy. Kinda like my dog. She’s so cute and everyone loves her and fawns over her so when she comes across someone who doesn’t, it confuses her. She tries extra hard to win them over because…. how can you be immune to me??? Which brings me to the other thing I do…
When I’m triggered by it all, I tend to do or say something unkind. If I can make them angry with me, then it makes sense. A lot more sense than their admiration. But then I feel bad because ultimately I don’t want to hurt them. I just want it to make sense and I feel if they see me as a human being, they’ll stop being so into me. So then I’m kind again or I apologise and we start the dance all over again. This is why I have to communicate more because I keep ending up in these situations in environments where I can’t avoid the other person and I’m sick of behaving this way. It’s so childish and emotionally immature. It also never ends well for me! All of these emotional dances could be solved with swift, honest communication that would save everyone a lot of time, torment and heartache.
If I were your SO, I’d get someone to say straight up to that colleague that she’s not interested and to let it go. I don’t think he should be blamed for having feelings but he should be keeping it to himself because she’s married! It sounds like your SO has a lot of integrity and would be doing all the right things anyway.
Great thread I can relate to a lot of the most recent comments. Although NC right now that “want” to be freinds prob wont go away ever but the soft ghosting, alloofness or no feeling is what im dreading if i re establish a frienship. I just want it to natural and normal and not an “edited” freindship where LO will step on eggshells and hold back anything that could be seen as warm or friendly. I think this is the fear on NC isnt it. That it is truly over. Left guessing for months is they still want to be friends or everything has changed becasue in my case i discussed my LImerence with her and she could now be permantly on the defence.
Tide,
Sorry for your struggle with NC.
This is the issue Mila is struggling with, she would like to be friends with her LO, but they work together , making it impossible to accomplish . In the end, NC winds up being NC for ever for many limerents. And especially if you disclosed, but if you’re convinced there’s no feelings for the Lo, and LO understands that , I don’t see why you can’t be friends. Think, is that possible ? Only you can answer that, and only you know
LO and have an idea on how she’ll react. I think you mentioned you have a time limit for NC till January? How about reaching her at that time and see what’s up. Do you think you’ll be clear by then? Hard to tell. How do you feel about that? So many unknowns , one needs a Crystal bowl ahhh!
Best wishes.
Ah no, Nisor, that’s not quite right;)
He is already my friend for many years and now he leaves my working place which triggered limerence, and I try to salvage the friendship through our, as I suspect, mutual limerence, although I don’t know how much he is conscious of his or mine.
But neither of us disclosed and we do a warm/cold dance that seems to affect me more than him.
Songs of the Blog:
“Suspicious Minds” – Elvis Presley (1969)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z7A-3SNaRE
“Suspicion” – Terry Stafford (1964)
I was 8 yrs old when “Suspicion” came out. I liked it then and I still like it.
I’ve only trusted 2 women in my adult life and allowed them to be in a position to betray me. I’m married to one of them. The other one I will never let anywhere near me again.
I never had those feelings about either of them.
“Suspicion” – Terry Stafford (1964)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7wt5U0zqFM
“A man holding on to woman letting go”
Theres a man with a bottle on the other side of town. Swimming in a memory he cant drown. Lord knows it aint sunk in that she coming back.
A Man Holding On — Ty Herdon
https://youtu.be/DUDTcOLoO7U?si=j0B8ViXcr9V9vTiC
“I’ve often wondered about the interactions between limerence and jealousy. At one level it seems simple – you desire your limerent object more than anything else in the world so obviously you would be jealous of possible mate poaching. But David Buss makes the case in the video that even mismatches in “market value” can be a cause of jealousy, independently of whether there are any actual competitors on the scene.”
Jealousy is a very interesting topic regarding limerence. From experience, as a gay man who never really wanted to be gay and who has never truly embraced that identity, I can say I was never jealous of my male LOs, and didn’t worry about their (presumably superior) mating value. I never crushed on a man who didn’t have sky-high mating value in terms of both his looks and his earning potential. I always pick the best of the bunch, thank you very much. I have an eye for quality. If I like a guy, it basically means that he is ideal marriage material … for a woman! 🤣
Even though I’m a biological male, and I identify as a biological male, in social groups, I tend to take on the role of the “Alpha Female”. But it’s a purely symbolic role, as I’m not a biological female, and really have nothing of substance to offer a male partner. I feel like I can’t get a toehold on the male hierarchy of wealth and power, so I just content myself with being the self-appointed matriarch of the tribe’s women. Of course, this self-appointed role is highly offensive, as I’ve never asked anyone for permission. I’ve just arbitrarily declared myself Queen Bee. 😇
In conservative circles, gay men aren’t accepted. But I’ve carved out a very interesting niche for myself. In conservative circles, I now see myself as a tastemaker for heterosexual women. or a “professional vetter of marriageable men”. In other words, basically, I set the standards in the social group over which men are deemed desirable. If I say a man’s okay, then he’s okay. 🤣
In some ways, I’m like a 90s supermodel, minus the fame and the good looks and the bank balance and, um, everything else that makes a supermodel a supermodel. I don’t give the nod of approval to famous men. Men BECOME famous (within the confines of my tiny social group) after I give them the nod of approval. 🤣
Here’s how my social role works. I locate all the good men. I show up in public with all the good men (usually platonic friends I’ve grown quite close to). And the single women in the group sit up and take notice – not of me, but of the wonderful men I’m showing off to them and for them. Because I’m really helping women identify all the men they should be paying attention to i.e. the men of quality. What can I say? Any woman who crushes on the same man I’ve crushed on is a woman with amazing taste. And who can fault a woman with good taste? 🙄
Before I accepted my “symbolic Alpha Female” role in life, I was jealous of the women my male LOs chose to pair-bond with i.e. not me, obviously. (I’m not a woman, for starters). The jealousy I felt toward these women made me feel guilty, because the jealousy didn’t seem to have a rational basis. (If I’m not a member of the female sex, why am I feeling competitive with the female sex? What the heck is wrong with my brain? These women have never been anything but lovely towards me, and I secretly hate them – why? We’re talking “handbags-at-dawn” hate aka invisible female sexual rivalry). The jealousy was largely unconscious at first, but then it would bubble up to the surface at the oddest moments, creating this deep sense of emotional strain when these women tried to befriend me.
So, yeah. I’m not really sure what goes on in the brains of other gay men, and I don’t particularly want to know. However, my “reptile brain” disturbingly appears to be the brain of an outrageously beautiful and therefore highly-competitive heterosexual women, who automatically views all other women as sexual/emotional threats.
My brain is totally delusional, by the way, as I don’t really have a female brain/female body, and have almost no interest in conventionally female pursuits). It’s really weird. Emotionally speaking, I’m a heterosexual woman – and one of the least pleasant heterosexual women anyone could imagine. But I’m only a “woman” in the realm of imagination/emotions. In all other facets of life, I’m a man – a very kind, very simple, very laidback man who wouldn’t say boo to a mouse and who pretty much doesn’t care what other people get up in their spare time. 🙄
So I think I can understand the depths of despair and irrational jealousy that a deeply insecure heterosexual woman might sink to if she felt her primary relationship was under threat. I don’t know if I’ve learned something about insecure women from my mother, or whether I’ve inherited some sort of instinctual knowledge from the Collective Unconscious?
Sometimes, I think gay men are gay largely because at some point in their lives they’ve acquired a terrifying insight into the female mind – the female mind of their mothers. And they gained, like, an almost telepathic access to their mother’s minds at a point when the mother was very, very unhappy. Even as a little boy, I could literally “feel” all of my mother’s intense emotions inside my own body.
I do think jealousy can serve as a kind of glue that holds couples together in the short term. However, jealousy probably doesn’t preserve the bond between couples in the long term, as life with a jealous partner can be very stressful. I don’t think it would be an exaggeration to say that (completely unfounded and irrational) jealousy gradually destroyed the happiness of my parents’ marriage.
Ahhhh! I’m so happy that you’re back Sammy. How are you, darling ? Please don’t desert us like that again! We did miss you and we love you for what you’re in your soul. We’re family now, sometimes we feel we have some rights to know, haha.
Hugs, very tight hugs. Have a splendid weekend. ❤️
Sammy Sams,
“However, my “reptile brain” disturbingly appears to be the brain of an outrageously beautiful and therefore highly-competitive heterosexual women, who automatically views all other women as sexual/emotional threats.”
They are threats. Just read this site. 🙂
“Sometimes, I think gay men are gay largely because at some point in their lives they’ve acquired a terrifying insight into the female mind – the female mind of their mothers.”
Sammy
First off, good to hear from you again. I started to worry that you deserted us. Glad to hear that overall you are doing well. Try not to be a stranger here. 🙂
As I have said many times, women will be the death of me long before alcohol. And I am equally addicted to both lol Having said that, my mommy issues aside, it hasn’t pushed me that far yet lol Good to have you back Sammy.
Sammy,
My fingers are numb, and my brain is just about going into hibernation, thanks giving to your high and mighty soaring again…🐲
Need to warm up, though