In the last post I outlined some of the key elements of purposeful living. Today, I’m going to dive a bit deeper into one of the foundational principles: honesty.
Honesty can be interpreted in several ways. One meaning is honest conduct, or personal integrity. I’ve written about that before, so will not repeat it here. Second, honesty can also mean simple truthfulness – not telling lies, or denying reality. Third, honesty can also mean forthrightness – the willingness to share your true opinion as a matter of principle, even if it makes other people uncomfortable.
These principles are all related, of course, but they are distinct in important ways. A dishonest person may deceive by telling direct lies, or by keeping secrets. Lies of commission and omission.
When it comes to purposeful living, all these forms of deceit are relevant, but the most ambiguous situation is keeping secrets. Let’s explore those issues.
White lies
Some lies are obvious. Failing to tell your spouse that you are having an affair is blatantly dishonest. But what about failing to tell your spouse that you are limerent for someone else? Is that dishonest?
Well, at one level it is, but most people would accept that certain internal thoughts and feelings can be kept private for the sake of marital harmony. If we blurted out every mad thought or uncharitable feeling that assails us, our relationships wouldn’t last long. That’s why “white lies” exist.
I think this is one of the grey areas when it comes to honesty – when is silence a deliberate attempt to hide secrets, and when is it a pragmatic choice to not volunteer distressing information? When is it reasonable for someone to decide what their spouse does or does not “need to know”?
Ironically, I think the only realistic answer to this question of how to honestly communicate with other people, is learning to communicate honestly with yourself.
Self-honesty
Most people aren’t really sure where their opinions come from. Now, that’s quite a bold claim, but I’d argue that we are all a very jumbled mix of influences – family traditions, cultural heritage, educational background. As we grow up, we absorb the prejudices and wisdom of parents, teachers, peers, celebrities, and even (god help us) politicians.
These influences are mapped onto our own personal temperaments, which have a biological grounding. We are neither blank slates nor genetic automatons, it’s the interplay between intrinsic and extrinsic drives that shapes our nature.
There is no escaping this conflict, but it is possible to make sense of it and make purposeful choices about your life once you understand how the forces interact. The root of success is honest, dispassionate analysis of who you really are and who you really want to be, and how to reach a compromise that honours both those principles.
To give an example: imagine a shy child who grew up in a family of extraverts, went to a school that valorised sporting excellence, and then went to University to study engineering. Right off the bat, we can probably speculate about possible scenarios that explain this person’s life experience – internalised beliefs that their shyness was shameful, an uncomfortable school life as a bookish introvert surrounded by jocks, concerns about how they ended up choosing Engineering as a discipline. Our minds immediately and naturally start telling stories that flesh out the emotional landscape around the basic facts.
Self-knowledge is all about questioning those stories that accumulate around your life. Did I really choose Engineering because I wanted to do it, because it pays well, because it impresses other people, or because I wanted to please my father? How can you find the answer to these questions?
Most directly, when scrutinising the influences that have shaped your life choices, your body will often let you know when you have hit upon an important truth. There is a particular brand of discomfort that gets you in the gut when you finally acknowledge you’ve been telling yourself an ego-protecting lie.
Irrational anger
Another good tell for spotting unexamined beliefs happens when arguing with someone who has a different perspective. If you feel yourself getting irrationally angry when disagreeing about morality, politics, culture or faith, it’s likely that the other person has challenged a core belief that is so deeply held that you’ve never questioned it.
The psychology behind this is that you realise in the moment that you can’t summon a decisive rational argument, but the principle really matters to you, so you become intensely defensive. A core belief is threatened and the stakes are so high that you will fight for it by any means, niceties be damned.
If you have this experience (and most people will) it pay dividends to spend some time (after you’ve cooled down) to really interrogate why you hold this belief so strongly. It is likely to be a foundation stone of your ethic. It deserves thorough analysis and deeper scrutiny.
Integrating the shadow
Usually, this sort of self analysis and truth-excavation is constructive, if you review your choices with an open mind to find the true basis of your decision making. It can get a bit dark, though. Some truths are ugly.
We instinctively hide thoughts or feelings we would rather not have. We suppress the instincts that we know other people would disapprove of. This is a necessary part of maturation, socialisation and civil responsibility, but it isn’t cost-free.
Jungian psychotherapists refer to these suppressed or denied aspects of our personality as our “shadow“. This is the part of yourself that you would rather not look at – not necessarily because it encompasses urges that are evil or malevolent, but because you don’t want to admit it is a part of you.
Jung argued that the shadow will assert itself if you do not face it. Let’s say someone grew up in a highly religious community, were ashamed of their libido, and married young as a virgin. Their erotic drive would likely be a source of shame, but it’s not going anywhere. As they age into adulthood those repressed feelings will cause trouble – in the marriage, with extramarital affairs, or with other emotional outbursts that aren’t so obviously linked to sexual frustration.
To avoid being mugged by your shadow, you need to get to know it, acknowledge that it’s part of you, and ideally, find healthy outlets for those urges that do not compromise your principles or integrity. Be honest about the less admirable aspects of your character and you will understand yourself better and make better decisions.
Preference falsification
A surprising amount of daily life involves play acting. We adopt a different persona for the different roles we have in society – teacher, student, partner, parent, child. Again, this is natural, but taken too far it can result in alienation from our own true natures.
Political polling has gone through something of a crisis recently, in large part because of an uptick in preference falsification. People will lie about their beliefs to avoid social stigma. A cynic could argue that such people have something to be ashamed of if they secretly vote for a wicked party or candidate, but would they really prefer to live in a society where people are afraid to be honest?
A lack of openness at a social scale is mirrored at the personal scale. Just like the gut-squirm of discomfort when you know you are lying to yourself, there is a definite physical response when you say something publicly that you do not believe to be true. Become attuned to this feeling. It can help you avoid the psychological corrosion that comes from persistently concealing your true beliefs.
Turn to the light
OK, so this has been grim reading so far. That reflects the fact that self-awareness often comes from accepting unpalatable truths. Let’s turn to the positive.
The benefits of being honest with yourself are manifold. You are far more likely to get what you want (and what you need) if you understand the origins of your feelings and beliefs properly.
If you truly value helping others, then finding a career that allows you to make money doing so will mean both personal and professional satisfaction. Equally, though, if you are ambitious and want material wealth, it is healthy and positive to let go of any self-reproach that you should want to be a paramedic or carer. Instead, find a lucrative and honest job, and then give money to charity.
One of the greatest blessings of living in a free society is that there are many paths to success, many vocations to try, many family structures to form, many types of people to love. If individuals play to their personal strengths and utilise their talents to the full, the whole community benefits.
The sweet spot for purposeful living is to be honest with yourself about your intrinsic temperament, but also gain an understanding of where your limiting fears come from. If you try to force yourself to live in conflict with your nature you’ll never find peace. If you let fear constrain your choices, you will never reach your potential. It’s all about balance.
Being honest with yourself involves letting go of ego and self-promoting lies and paying attention to the visceral emotions that tell you when a hidden truth is being concealed by rationalisation. If you figure out who you are at a fundamental level, then you can project forward to the best version of yourself that you can picture.
Working towards that ideal is the best hope for living a fulfilling life, pursuing a purpose that both aligns with your temperament and transcends your limiting beliefs. We need to be true to ourselves, but also strive to improve. Being honest with yourself is a necessary first step for validating and prioritising your goals.
Finally, to bring this back to the original concern about white lies: if you have a good sense of self, and become adept at reading the emotions that accompany ethical lapses, it is a lot easier to know when you are keeping secrets to protect yourself versus acting in good-faith discretion.
Trust your gut is a cliche, but it is surprising how good our bodies are at registering a mismatch between deep truth and superficial excuses.
“Jung argued that the shadow will assert itself if you do not face it. Let’s say someone grew up in a highly religious community, were ashamed of their libido, and married young as a virgin. Their erotic drive would likely be a source of shame, but it’s not going anywhere.”
This is the most strongly point to hit me. It took me 10 years into my marriage to feel ok to express these desires. My wife has been my one and only. My wife was very reciprocal about it which made it easier to confess. Still all that time before I convinced myself that I was a sinner and shamed myself. I know this isnt the intent of your blog post but this really hit home for me. Thankfully I am past that and can share more of me with my wife than I used to.
Yep! I get it, Adam. You are right.
The message that “stuff associated with sex is shameful” isn’t intentionally taught by most religious people, at least I hope it isn’t intentional, but it comes across that way. I try hard not to teach my kids or my Sunday School kids that it is shameful. It’s hard to balance the messages of “don’t do it yet” with “it’s a great way to bond with your mate.” You don’t want to trigger their curiosity at an early age. Oh it is just so hard. I remember a lesson I taught to a group of 13-year-old girls about abstinence. We had one of the parents in class. At the end of the lesson, I actually closed with, “But, if you do mess around with a boy, just repent and you’ll be fine.” I wanted to convey to the girls that they aren’t broken if they “sin.” The dad in the room looked startled but he didn’t say anything.
Thank you for this blog post.
I think I had a breakthrough last night in my own LE recovery. I hope. Maybe.
But after this past year, I don’t know who I am any more. I just don’t know.
I want to seek therapy but I don’t know what type of therapist I should be seeking. I’ve looked at profiles online and don’t know how to identify a good one for m problem.
In this case, I’ve been under his spell for over a year. We’re both married and I’d known him about 2 years bc I’m friends with his wife. I recognized him early on as an under-the-radar sociopath, but one night he grabbed my bottom and the way he whispered my name in my ear broke my brain. The glimmer of glimmers. I couldn’t sleep. Couldn’t eat. I started dropping weight. Then…major life stressors. My dad died. And I had a major gut punch at work, passed over for promotion. Oh and I’m in healthcare during covid so work hours suck and my husband was growing increasingly discontent with that. Overwhelmingly feeling burnt out and out of control. Fast forward to a late night afterparty and LO did it again, so I grabbed him back and it was on. I have never ever felt as exhilarated as in that month of flirty texting and then that first kiss the night we began our 6 mo affair. I ended up losing 40 pounds. Looking hotter than I had in more than 15 years.
I knew he was a sociopath. But the crazy thing was…. my behavior was being altered as well. It’s intoxicating to be in the aura of someone who appears to bend the world to his rules instead of vice versa. Was it limerent brain fog? Or did he uncage deeply latent dark triad traits in me? I felt no guilt or remorse at what I was doing. All my actions were designed to get underneath him at every opportunity. I got bolder at work. More manipulative in all spheres of my life. Lying. Scheming. I didn’t want to leave my husband, and despite how mutual the LA felt, I recognized this guy was not relationship material.
Ultimately I fled. The job of a lifetime landed in my lap. Fled the toxic job and toxic man and relocated my family all the way to the West Coast. I thought it would be a tidy end to the LA and it was… for him. But not for me. Four months later my perseverations have continued. I’ve reached out a couple of times but his responses were impersonal and he never initiated.
So last night, drunk in an uber, I sent him a string of goodbye texts. That I was previously in denial but ready to accept his rejection of me. And in reply… nothing. Silence.
But now what? I feel like I am in a identity free fall. I am in physical anguish to think I may never feel that rush again. Like, in my life. And now I know I am capable of acts that I had previously found irreprehensible in others. My identity and purpose was dominated by my profession and position, but no one here knows me for that now.
I’ve never felt more vulnerable and isolated. I am ready to be honest with myself but I don’t know how to recognize what is the truth. Is the darkness an artifact of the LA, or is it a living part of me? How do I put the darkness back in the cage? And on the flip side, how could feeling so good be so wrong?
Free Fall, your story is painful. You weren’t looking for trouble, but when it found you, you experimented with it. The consequences sound horrible. You are stuck in a limerent state for someone who you know to be bad news.
A powerful tool to overcome limerence is purposeful living. Can you recommit to what is important and lose yourself in pursuit of your goals? I recommend that you do the right thing no matter how you feel. You are overcoming a type of addiction and we all know that addicts tend to struggle with making good choices. Decide who you will be when your judgment isn’t clouded then stick to it. You can get through this. Eventually you will develop new patterns of behavior that line up with your standards.
Another great way to overcome this is to go no contact with your LO. I highly recommend NC for your situation. When you are tempted to reach out to your LO, come to this website and read the articles or comments. Ask for help if you need some extra strength.
I would also recommend that you destroy reminders of your LO. Get rid of past correspondence and pictures. Those things can keep the fires burning. Also, try to replace your fantasies of LO with something different. Minimize thoughts of LO as much as possible.
Good luck! I hope to see you in the comments section on LwL again. You will find support here.
Thank you for all your advice, Lovisa. It was a beautiful response and what I needed to hear. I really believe he will not reach out to me again, but it will be a challenge for me to to eradicate him and that ongoing stimulus from my life.
He’s a highly visible figure in my former city. Leads a very successful Nonprofit. Everyone thinks he’s a saint, but to me it’s like he’s proactively seeking redemption for his true nature. No one suspects who he really is. Even during the heat of the LA, I often wondered how many other women there were—how many had he charmed during all of his speaking engagements and mission trips to war torn places?
The point being he pops up in a lot of places on social media, via shared posts, the news etc. Not only has his face been hard to avoid. It’s been very hard seeing how much he’s praised and respected by my friends and the community at large.
This is an addiction but finding things to apply from the addiction lit is a challenge. Re mementos: Yes I recognize that as long as I have our chats I will be tempted to revisit them. But part of me justifies holding onto our chats etc….if nothing else to keep him from running for public office (again). I’ve made no disclosures to my spouse or his but the fact that I could makes me feel like he is not walking away clean.
Oh Free Fall, I hear you sister. My LO1 has fame and fortune and escaping him is impossible. If it’s not his name, it is his art work and every time he came up, my heart hurt. My kids would bring him up because they are fans of his work. I couldn’t get away from that pain. It was hard to keep the secret from my spouse. Granted, I did not have a PA with LO1, but I did have an EA. I finally disclosed to SO and I regret it because it is a source of pain for him now. Now he is the one who can’t escape the pain. I am not advising you in either direction because I don’t know if disclosure is best for you.
I understand why you want to keep evidence so to speak. I can’t advise you on that either, but I get it. Your thinking makes sense.
Free Fall, something really bad happened to you and you didn’t handle it well. You made some mistakes (true that someone was pushing you in that direction), but the mistakes were still yours. This does not define you. You are a good, strong woman who knows what is right and what is wrong. Your judgment was clouded, but you are getting better at recognizing truth. You have a long way to go towards healing. I am so sorry you are going through this.
A couple of things caught my attention in your post. This might hurt, but I think you should check in with yourself. I sensed you might be feeling vengeful. Don’t become that person, k? It’s not helpful and it could consume you. I highly recommend that you keep his name and identity to yourself. I know there are times when you are so mad that you want to tell everyone who hurt you, but I don’t think it would help. I could be wrong.
Good luck and keep coming here if you don’t have another support system.
I would like to comment at length Free Fall, but it would not be productive and conducive to helping you past this person. But I will say with regard to the behavior of his that you have posted, limerence, or not, this guy just seems bad for any woman. And he has clearly used you for as long as he wanted and then abandoned you. And I’ll leave at that as my temper rises …..
Fantastic article! I’ll highlight and comment on the bits that most spoke to me:
“Another good tell for spotting unexamined beliefs happens when arguing with someone who has a different perspective. If you feel yourself getting irrationally angry when disagreeing about morality, politics, culture or faith, it’s likely that the other person has challenged a core belief that is so deeply held that you’ve never questioned it.”
So irrational anger can alert us to blind spots, in other words? That’s an interesting idea.
I find that I’m not really angered by the CONTENT of other people’s beliefs. However, if another person expresses beliefs in a really self-righteous way, regardless of what those beliefs are, I feel annoyed and defensive and argumentative. Heck, I might even agree with the person’s worldview entirely, but I’m still triggered by their self-righteous “attitude”! Hahaha! 🙄
I don’t know why I’m upset by a “self-righteous tone”? (Unless I’m incredibly self-righteous myself and just in denial of this tendency? Maybe I just want to be the only person in the room who’s allowed to “know” anything! Haha! Maybe I just like the sound of my own voice? Perhaps I’m too egotistically invested in how much I supposedly “know”, which means I’m reluctant to learn from others?) 😉
“We instinctively hide thoughts or feelings we would rather not have. We suppress the instincts that we know other people would disapprove of. This is a necessary part of maturation, socialisation and civil responsibility, but it isn’t cost-free.”
I think I hide – mostly from myself – feelings associated with desire. For example, I have a hard time admitting to myself I find men’s bodies attractive and I’m worried that my own objectively-very-attractive body is not attractive in comparison. I have also given up trying to be more attractive because it’s too much work!
I have a hard time admitting to myself that straight men will never feel anything for me other than friendship. I don’t want to admit that friendship with a straight man is not enough for me emotionally. I don’t want to be friend-zoned!! And I have a hard time admitting to myself I’m intensely envious of the opposite sex (i.e. women collectively) because the long-suffering members of “women collectively” can supposedly and with minimal effort obtain the very thing I most ardently desire – the passionate love of a good man! 🙄😆😉
“To avoid being mugged by your shadow, you need to get to know it, acknowledge that it’s part of you, and ideally, find healthy outlets for those urges that do not compromise your principles or integrity. Be honest about the less admirable aspects of your character and you will understand yourself better and make better decisions.”
I’ve been confronting my shadow lately. Seems like my shadow self is a charmer with no morals whatsoever who is rather selfish and who is motivated primarily by pleasure. A real Mr Hyde or Dorian Gray type. And I’ve probably been projecting this amoral, hedonistic, charismatic character onto other people in my life for quite some time now… I think that’s what we do with the shadow when we don’t own it – we project it. (Or, maybe, we just become limerent for HIM!) 😉
“The sweet spot for purposeful living is to be honest with yourself about your intrinsic temperament, but also gain an understanding of where your limiting fears come from. If you try to force yourself to live in conflict with your nature you’ll never find peace.”
Another interesting idea. The other day I had an epiphany that I’m “just a simple man at heart”. What I mean by this is I don’t really want what the world calls “success”. I’m an introvert who’s not that interested in material goodies or social power. However, when I was younger, people in my life noted that I had some talent/high intelligence and consequently pressured me to be ambitious.
Basically, I think “high achiever” is part of other people’s conceptions of me. It’s disgraceful, but I have never thought of the word “loser” as an insult. I like to take life easy, and bumble along, pursuing this or that eccentric hobby. I think being a big success story was always someone else’s dream, and never my own. 😇
“Finally, to bring this back to the original concern about white lies: if you have a good sense of self, and become adept at reading the emotions that accompany ethical lapses, it is a lot easier to know when you are keeping secrets to protect yourself versus acting in good-faith discretion.”
I think honesty is most pertinent to the discussion on limerence when it comes to the concept of “emotional affairs”. I think the line between “friendship” and “an emotional affair” can be blurry in the best of times, however, so it’s understandable if people end up confused.
Also, I don’t know if someone can have an “emotional affair” if one party in the so-called affair is staunchly convinced that there’s nothing going on other than platonic friendship, and the “affair” is only taking place inside the muddled brain of the poor limerent!! 🤣
Where are these random remarks coming from, you ask? Well, there’s a part of me that wonders “was I having an emotional affair with my straight male friend/LO all those years ago?” He would deny it. He would say no, don’t be ridiculous. Other heterosexual men, if asked, would also likely say no. You’re beating yourself up unnecessarily, mate, etc, etc…
However, I think women are a little more clued-in about relationships than men are, and if I asked a woman her opinion on whether I was having an emotional affair or not, she would say yes. And she would also say it was inappropriate.
I think the sexes may have slightly different standards on what’s acceptable behaviour in the arena of mating. I think I might trust a woman’s perspective over a man’s in this one specific instance. I think a woman would give me a “more honest” answer – an answer that is more honest emotionally, that is. 🤔
This is my first comment. I found the site after reading about EA’s.
Now that I know what limerence is, I see clearly, I am a lifelong limerent. I am almost 48. The glimmers, the crippling shyness, the heart-hurt, the feeling LO is with you when they are not…I have experienced many of the symptoms, many, many times.
When I was almost 30 I had a severe limerence that was somewhat requited…it was passionate. But ultimately it became so painful I vowed never to touch that fire again. Even though LO came back asking to rekindle, I said no. NO. After I recovered and my heart stopped (literally) aching, I met a kind man who made me feel safe. I remain with him now. There is steady love, care, and there is a kind of intimacy….But, there is no passion.
I was so damaged from years of emotional abuse in my family, from years of unrequited limerence (…though I have had many relationships outside of my limerences)…I fear that in my 30’s I bound up the side of myself who wanted…well…more. And now, the bill has come due.
Recently, I have had 2 limerences for younger men, who are part of a group I am part of. While I have not flirted, I have been in one-on-one conversations with them, and both showed some interest (I am experienced enough be almost certain they had crushes on me)…however nothing turned physical. The duration of these episodes, about 5 weeks maybe…both disappeared.
I am privately devastated. I recovered from the first, last year, only to accidentally get the second, this year. I do nothing wittingly to bring this on…I’m a decent looking older woman. I am fit, I’m intelligent and funny. These are curious and intelligent younger men. They circle around, only to understand I am not technically available. Probably in their minds, my age also is a factor (maybe they are horrified or ashamed, to some extent — that they are even momentarily attracted to a woman of my age.)They have no idea I am attracted to them, at all. I would never show that — I am morally unable to abuse my partner’s trust. But when they turn away…it hurts to a degree that has been truly mindbending.
What is happening is not fair to my partner AND it’s not fair to me.
I keep thinking one day I will be old enough that I will not be attractive to the opposite sex. And one day, I will not have desires. I keep hoping I will wake up…dried out…calmed down….retired. Finally out to pasture, maybe achy, saggy…but in relief. I keep hoping I will recover, ease into boredom. And just learn to be happy with what I have.
It feels like sacrilege to be awaiting the mercy of old age. This all feels very, very wrong. No matter how I look at it.
Welcome to LwL!
“I keep thinking one day I will be old enough that I will not be attractive to the opposite sex. And one day, I will not have desires. I keep hoping I will wake up…dried out…calmed down….retired. Finally out to pasture, maybe achy, saggy…but in relief. I keep hoping I will recover, ease into boredom. And just learn to be happy with what I have.”
Are you familiar with the works of Mark Twain? He has quite a different perspective. Then, again, Twain had an agenda.
https://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/twain/letearth.htm
You can skip to Letter VIII.
I’m glad Mr. Twain was a writer, and not a gynecologist.
I love your sense of humor!!!
Hello CSC,
My story is pretty similar to yours, and it was surprising to read it here! Nice to know I am not unique in this.
I’m a similar age to you and I’ve had three young men definitely crushing on me recently. Two of them are incredibly gorgeous (as in actor/supermodel gorgeous – I am not kidding, my women friends who see their pictures are like “oh my”). Not only that, all of them extremely intelligent, ambitious, etc. I cannot understand it at all – what in the world are these young men attracted to when they look at me? Objectively, I am not unattractive, have a youthful attitude, very socially confident, and I guess smart enough to hold my own in conversation with them. But, these guys are 9s, close to 10s, and I would say I am very definitely like a 7. And much older than they are.
It is incredibly flattering … and hard not to get swept up by it. They can be so sweet at that age! Doing all sorts of things, offering help, giving little gifts, sending really sweet messages, and falling over themselves to find reasons to be able to talk more. And they look kind of star-struck when they look at me. They stammer. Send me messages about things that happened in their day that reminded them of me. Inviting me to all their events (especially sports? why? I hate sports). Trying to invite themselves to things I am doing or showing up where they know I will be or suggesting future things to do together. Like you, I am experienced enough to recognize the signs.
I swear I am not a flirt. In fact, so much of this happens right in front of our friends, who all know I am unavailable (and my age). It would be ridiculous (not to mention risky) for me to behave indecorously. I am friendly to them, just as I am friendly to everyone, no different. I make sure of it. But their response is different.
This age-old dance between men and women – it is miraculous how it happens over and over again, even as the dancers change. Even when the dancers are mismatched! It would be funny except hearts get broken.
I fell into unexpected limerence for one, the first one. I think I was caught off-guard (now that I know young men do this, I am no longer off-guard but very vigilant!) and at a bad moment in my marriage, and lasted maybe 4 months on his end, a year on my side (like you, I found it personally devastating). Unlike you, I am not a lifetime limerent – this was my first. I am now being very careful with the current young men, and steering clear of too much contact (not responding too much to their txting especially). I mention my grown-up kids often (I think that first one was confused about my age) although to my surprise it doesn’t seem to discourage them. No good will come of it.
Based on what you say, you have unresolved issues in your past. I came to the conclusion I do, too. All about the time you were in your 30s, by the sound of it. So these younger men of yours, are they the kind of guys you might have been attracted to when you were about that age, perhaps? Just as they may have mother issues (who knows? that was one of my speculations when I thought about these three young men) we may have younger men issues. Because of some bigger unresolved issue in our pasts.
I have found it fruitful to think very hard about what it is that these young men represent to me, that makes me susceptible to their flattery. Your case will be different to mine, but for me I think it is that I married young and spent most of my time raising children even though I had a lot of intellectual potential. So the fact that these young men are at the start of promising careers is to me very exciting. They represent lost opportunities. All the potential life has to offer. Their energy is uplifting.
The other thing is that because I am a mother, I am very caring and nurturing, and there is something I find so sweet in these guys, that arouses something in me that wants to care for them (if they have a mother complex, that is probably what they are unconsciously attracted to). They have not got everything sorted, they still need support. And I am the perfect one to give it! (haha – not) You know, this should not be underestimated. Young people are under such a lot of pressure nowadays in this cut throat world, having someone want to care for you and coddle you a bit might be a pleasant relief.
Then there is the simple fact that they remind me I am attractive and that is nice. But this last one, I feel, is false gold. It may feel great in the moment but the age of the flesh is real. I can see it in my mirror. These young men will be looking to start families, etc. I will age more, and there are always younger women (and as I mentioned, I’m not all that pretty to start with anyway). To care too much about my vanity is asking to have my confidence ripped up in the future when they move on, which is to be expected. I would rather grow old gracefully than to cling onto youth (especially if I start to care for younger men and want to be attractive for them – no thank you – even Demi Moore couldn’t pull it off). So for the sake of my own mental sanity, I really need to just enjoy the small ego-boost but not take it too seriously, and not to care when it disappears. This is what I tell myself.
I think we are a fantasy to them as much as they are a fantasy to us. And fantasy is the basis of limerence.
Oh my goodness, Older But Not Wiser…thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for taking the time to not only console me, but to offer your wisdom, and insights, having been through similar. I feel seen. Thank you.
You make a key point about this being “something young men do”. I had honestly never thought of it that way…but you are right! If I can kind of group them in together, I might stand a chance if it happens again. I had romantically seen these as isolated incidents, involving twin souls…and not…simply something that can happen when a man is a certain age. But when I review it…and compare notes….yes. Yes.
Your observations about your own situations, and how they feel, are also so comforting (though I’m sorry for any pain you have felt). I too have felt that these young men are…a bit…adrift. They seem not to totally understand themselves yet. A little lost. Not very lost, but just lost enough. In me, I think they see a confident woman who genuinely likes them…a woman who will actually have an un-self-conscious conversation that is fun and interesting. And that is when they start to pursue. Even though, like you, I give no flirt.
Unlike you, I have never had children. I never wanted to. But, I can say, that from the flip side, there is absolutely bit of maternal instinct kicking in with me, as well. It’s all mixed in…a kind of soup. A guide instinct, maybe. But it’s not nothing. It’s powerful. That is definitely in the mix.
One thing I would think is that you may be (like me) the kind of woman who was never considered a traditional 9 or 10, lookswise. But then, you aged. And you aged well. And now…guess what? You ARE a 9 or a 10. While men your age may not pursue you, younger men see that you are absolutely gorgeous, mysterious, and attractive. And they are game to attempt pursuit of an unavailable and worldly woman. Yes, I’ve had the types of flattery you have! Though, thankfully was not invited out. I probably would have gone, and that would have been the complete ruin of me! 🙂
You’ve helped me see that once I recover a bit, this may not need to be a sad, confusing, time. Maybe it’s rather something just to enjoy….That this might actually keep happening, if I am around younger men…it may happen again. But next time I will take a more cautious and mature attitude, be more in control, see it for what it is, set boundaries, and just enjoy it, without feeling like I’m sliding. Enjoy watching a young man flounder around. I could get into that. 😉
Yes, I do have some unresolved issues and hurts. But, I have always handled them. I have always kept a lid on them. I do feel, ultimately, that I have a good bit of self-awareness, and self-control. Which is why these two limererences really blindsided me. Privately, they have been painful. Almost nobody knows how deeply they rocked me. But — reading over what you said, I will know…like you know…that this can happen…a young man giving me glimmer. And I will try to have eyes open if it does again, and take it as a compliment, and hopefully that will be all.
You are so right about protecting our sanity. So right about Demi! …So right on all points. Hugs. 🙂
Okay, first of all, I love the idea that I’ve aged into a 9 or a 10. I’ll take it!! 😀
I’m glad you are warming to idea of enjoying this (once the pain of your current limerence fades a bit). I see it as a gift my LO, the first of this stream of young men, gave to me. Before him I felt there wasn’t anything left to me but a frumpy mom. Unlike you, I would not dare a bikini, conservative or otherwise. I definitely have the body of someone who has birthed three kids. But you are right. I have confidence, I have charm, I have a skill in making people feel comfortable all ages, genders because I am genuinely interested in them. I also will take your description of gorgeous, mysterious and attractive!
So one of the word you used sparked a thought in me: “guide”. In some cultures, older women do sometimes have a role as a guide for younger men. Older women have a lot to offer young men, especially as you describe them “not very lost, but lost enough” (you really have a way with words!) We can offer insight into what makes a woman happy, perhaps more than their mothers even because with a mother there is always a need to rebel. With a lover, they can be open and curious.
I think the problem is that this instinct towards inter generational sharing is not recognized in our cultures. So we think every relationship needs to be about our soul mate or twin flame or forever love. And this young man older woman thing just doesn’t fit that narrative. And we break our hearts trying to fit it in that narrative. There is no narrative available to us that will prevent shame, societal disapproval or reputational harm should we chose the pursue this (assuming we are free to, if one still subscribes to the monogamy model).
I have more ideas, but I need to go right now. Back later!
Hi Older but not Wiser….I was away for a long weekend and just got back, and I wanted to give your response a good think. I really…enjoyed…?…maybe that’s not the right word…your replies. You are very intelligent. Little did I know when I posted originally, I would be the beneficiary of such intelligent comments from people who clearly think quite deeply, and have such open, nimble minds. I hope I’m replying correctly here because I can’t find a way to reply to your latest comment — so I hope you see this!
Everything you are saying makes sense. After reading through the various threads here, I have to wonder if midlife limerences are kind of a category all their own. In a way, maybe it is kind of a rite of passage. If we had a more open society, fewer cultural taboos, a more open mindset about women growing older, specifically, I wonder if younger men might actually be actively encouraged to seek out an older partner, at least for a time…and women in middle age would be understood as having certain needs (and unlike men, a certain “shelf life” — not as in time to have children, but as in…elasticity. haha) but instead, younger men are left to feel like there’s something wrong with them, and older women– who are not even that old– are left to feel like perverted old biddies.
I would like to live in a world where my ongoing relationship could remain intact…I have so much respect for my partner. We are intimate on a partnership level that few get to experience. But…even though we have so much understanding, so much honesty, and so much substance and foundation to our relationship, I find, that like a tree, I am growing a new branch. That branch is private, it’s heavy, and it cannot be something he will share. The branch seems to be part of my new reality…of becoming a middle-aged woman…something I have never experienced before. I’m growing into a bigger tree. I’m sure there will be a benefit. But…it is a strain. And it is hard to keep things hidden, even if there has been no transgression (or even an EA).
I understand completely what you are saying about this weekend and the contact that was made. The intrusive thoughts. You are not alone. I had similar occur this weekend (what is it with time off?)…and I understand how even a small contact is a ripple that can turn into a huge wave inside us.
It’s so hard. From the nature of my SO, to the thoughts of splitting, because I can only live one life, and I want to enjoy my body and mind, to the thoughts of…the ticking clock…I can understand. What I can say is…you are not alone, and navigating this time in life is indeed very challenging.
I have a story I will share (that has nothing to do with me but I think you and maybe others might find it interesting… but I have to get to work…so I’ll pop back later when I can type it. 🙂
I’m glad I went back up after my last reply to you, because otherwise I would have missed this. Likewise, likewise! I enjoy your replies very much. You have a feel about you like my very best, good girlfriends. Your humor (“perverted old biddies”? hahaha), and your eloquence (“branch is private, it’s heavy, and it cannot be something he will share” – wow, just wow. I love writing, and this is so evocative.) You have a sense of humor about yourself (that story of your grey hair flying, I could just see it!) and I can totally see why your young men are captivated by you! And, I love that you introduced me to the idea that I might actually be hot. I mean, my experiences with my young men have made me at least think I am at least not frumpy, but actually hot? A 9 or a 10? With friends like you, who needs an LO to boost my confidence, hahaha. So, thanks to you I actually posted a photo of myself in a swimsuit over the weekend on social media. Wahaha. What middle-aged woman does that? But … you know, I looked at that photo and I did think it was not bad at all! Mummy tummy (discretely hidden) and all. Lol.
I have almost exactly the same situation with my SO. I am changing too, fundamentally, existentially. I actually see the whole LE as just a part of my late flowering after years of being asleep. The forcing of me awake. It saddens me terribly that my SO does not feel a part of this. There are decisions to be made.
I look forward to your next story! 😀
Hi CSC, there is something in the air. I keep meeting men in their twenties and becoming friends with them. I have zero attraction for a man in his twenties and I assume they see me as a mother figure. My guy-friend doesn’t trust them. My friend says they are hanging around because they want to sleep with me. I don’t believe that at all. And even if it were true, it doesn’t matter because I have no interest in sleeping with any of them. I see them as children. I enjoy their company, but they aren’t as interesting as men my age. I think it’s interesting that you are attracted to younger men. How much younger are we talking? To be honest, my current LO is a few months younger than me and it kind of bothers me. Your story is so interesting. I hope I haven’t said anything hurtful. I am genuinely curious. By the way, I am in my mid-forties.
I would say, they probably want to sleep with you … too. It would not be the only or even main reason necessarily. But they are adults, you are an adult. Attraction happens.
Lol! I just can’t bring myself to believe it.
Thank you Lovisa, for commenting on my story. I am intrigued by your situation, as well…What IS going on with these young men…between you and Older Not Wiser’s experiences….this does seem more prevalent than I realized, or been open to, before.
I have never, ever, been attracted to anyone younger. These two were the first. In fact, I have always been attracted to men quite a bit older. I had always thought younger men were not my type. But then again, I have never been the age I am, before…?
But, I have thought about it many times in recent days, and at this point, I actually do think their youth had something to do with my developing feelings for each of them, though they didn’t realize I cared at all, because I really, really, did not want to seem like an experienced woman who was losing her cool. I actually think there was part of me that was kind of…reawakened, and delighted. And of course, part of me that is very sad, since time cannot go backwards. So, I would describe this as a kind of weird space between teenage crush and midlife crisis. :/
I am almost 48 and the first LO (LE happened last year) was 33 and the second, (LE I am attempting recovery from now) I would guess he is around 29-31. But no— absolutely no history of anyone younger. Not even, like in your case, a few months!
Hi CSC,
I think you are onto something there, about the cross between mid-life and teenage crush. In a way, it makes perfect sense when you think about it. Mid-life is all about looking back (because looking forward is more … sobering).
I recently realized if I ever had a “type” it was a 30 year old! When I was in my late teens I dated older men (30 year olds) and now that I am in my late 40s I am crushing after younger men (30 year olds). Lol (like you said, if you don’t laugh you cry). But when I married, I married someone of a similar age.
I went and read your story carefully again, and note that you had a passionate requited LE, and you turned it down second time round, and married someone wonderful who you were not attracted to at the same level. This is exactly my case as well. My first LO chased me across the country but I was so burned. I don’t know if that factor plays a part in us falling for our younger LOs now.
I want to tell you something, since it is “live”. My LO (the first of the young men) and I were in touch through txt a bit this weekend, I guess because it is a holiday weekend, and a bit of the pain was rekindled. Pain because he obviously cares less than he used to, pain because I think he likes someone else now, pain because I am lonely in my marriage, pain because even with another young guy even more objectively handsome in the wings, LO is LO, and no one touches our heartstrings and glimmers for the way they do. Sigh. Teenage crush indeed.
I have had the most wonderful holiday weekend filled with good food, good company, exciting activities, so to feel this pain at the end of the good times is a little bit of a shame. It goes to show that even after LE has faded a bit, it can still flare up. NC is better than LC, but it’s hard to cut someone out entirely in this circumstance because first of all nothing was ever said or revealed, and we are technically still friends. He was the one who reached out to me by the way, I was just happily doing my own thing and would never have initiated contact. But for the rest of the weekend he was flitting in and out of my thoughts a bit more than I would prefer. Deep inside, I still want him to care. It is sad to admit that to myself, but it is True.
“(maybe they are horrified or ashamed, to some extent — that they are even momentarily attracted to a woman of my age.)”
Coming into that age, my late teens into my early twenties before I got married, I was always interested in women older than me. I eyed my friends’ mothers before their sisters. Most of the women that appealed to me in church were easily 40 or older. While I dated within my age group that was only out of fear of what an available woman that age would respond to a 20 something kid. That was the ONLY thing that stopped me. Older women were always in my fantasies. Hell at 45 I am still noticing women older than me. My wife even knows it and teases me if we see a mother/daughter when at the store and she’s like “yeah I know you are looking at the mother”. 🙂
Since getting married (my wife is 2 years younger than me) LO has been the only woman that has caught my attention that is significantly younger than me. I don’t really know if her age is a factor or if it is just her as a woman that gets my attention. There has been plenty of young attractive women that I have worked with throughout the years that have done absolutely nothing for me in department of attraction no matter how nice and pleasant of a woman they were. At one job literally every man hit on this very attractive and fit young female co-worker. She was a very nice, professional and hard working young lady. That’s all I saw.
Thank you for sharing this, Adam. Like you, I have never been attracted to anyone younger. You’ve made me feel a bit better as I did feel like…did I somehow…trick these junior LO’s into having momentary crushes and giving glimmer?
Maybe not. Maybe they just need to face that they might like older women. If so, I will hope that they will find some other deserving woman like me, if it cannot be me.
I wish more men were open with themselves about feeling attracted to older women. I am not pleased that I’ve had these two particular limerences. They have been very disorienting and extremely painful….not to mention excruciatingly tempting. Ugh.
But what has made them exponentially worse is, yes, the feeling that I am “old” and that may have been a key reason why LO’s turned away.
I recently had an experience at a beach. I was partially in the water, slowly bracing to enter the cold. had a hat on, and a flattering yet conservative bikini. Down the beach was a very young man. Probably 19 or 20. A “youth”. haha– He was clearly showing off. Running all over, making lots of noise. At a certain point, he told his little brother “let’s go pretend we’re going to tackle the girl in the black bikini”. (I could hear him because of beach acoustics).
Well, they did start running. The minute he got up close, I took off my hat. Gray hair flying.
He turned very pale and ran back to his towel. He spent the next hour just sitting there, stunned. Scared. Quiet. Unspeaking! I could practically see him shaking. I felt so bad….but it had to be done.
These limerences were a bit older than he…but…I can’t help but think the same thing was at play. Maybe they saw me for what I am, and were repelled.
My friend says no, they saw me for what I am: Practically Married for the past 16 years.
If I can’t laugh, I will cry.
Thinking on your comment CSC I came to the conclusion that I think the reason LO stood out to me despite being 15 years younger than me, is that she was mature beyond her age. One of the reasons I was 21 before I even started dating was I had no desire to get drawn into the drama, gossip and bs of “girls”. I wanted a woman. And through what life put LO through she had to mature far faster than most women her age. And I guess I saw that. A determined, hard working, motivated, “get in my way in you will regret it” single mother of two daughters was extremely attractive. Then factor in my rescue complex with her pos ex and the recipe for limerence was cooking.
“Well, they did start running. The minute he got up close, I took off my hat. Gray hair flying.”
My wife was graying before I met her. Since her teens. When we got together I never knew she dyed her hair. 20 damn years of telling her if she wanted to dye her hair for herself that’s fine. But don’t do it for me or society. Finally about 2 years ago she decided to let her silver grow out. And she is absolutely beautiful. I think silver hair is extremely sexy and I wish most women would know that there are guys that find it that way and not repulsive like that boy did in your case. There is nothing more attractive than a woman that gives society the bird and celebrates her silver. His loss to not to get to know you because of your silver hair.
“Maybe they just need to face that they might like older women.”
I think society in general is much more accepting of this fact than in our day and age. I remember one of my best friend’s mother remarried to a much younger man and that was so unheard of. But I think age gaps aren’t as big of a deal now as they were. And hopefully most young men interested in older women don’t feel the barriers that I did. I am most thankful I met my wife and love her dearly. But I think things would have been much different had I not had the fear of approaching a much older available woman. The woman that I had a severe crush on in church was a widow in her 50’s. She even invaded my dreams. Not that I was complaining. *wink wink*
Adam, thank you for sharing about your interest in older women as a young men. It is very interesting to hear from the male perspective on this one. I think the usual line we are fed as older women is that we are over the hill, put out to pasture, etc etc. by the time we cross the 40 threshold.
It reminded me a bit of my LO who actually said directly “I like older women” and more indirectly told me how the sex drives of older women and younger men are more aligned! He was obviously doing his research.
As far as I am concerned I think women hit their prime in the 30-40 year old range depending on the woman and her life circumstances. Women this age have their lives together for the most part. Have confidence, not an ego like many younger people. There’s in big difference and confidence is very attractive. They have plans for the future, know what they want out of life.
To me attractiveness is more in the mind and personality than the body. There are women that are objectively physically attractive, but that only lasts so long. We as men and women age. And while some definitely age more gracefully than other, beauty still fades. And when there is a beauty within the person, that lasts forever. And I think that kind of mindset comes to us with age. When we start to appreciate the things in life we took for granted when we were younger.
I’m also just curious: would an older person going after a younger one (assuming no one is married) give anyone a reaction? Like some are, oh it’s fine, but I know some people find it a little “eeeww” and others think the older person is sleazy or taking advantage of a younger person??
I’m fine with a 15-year age gap or less. I feel uncomfortable if one partner is old enough to be the parent of the other. That triggers a big yuck-response in me.
The craziest story I’ve heard was a 15-year-old girl who met and fell in love with a 55-year-old man. She told me that he had no interest in her until a few years after she became an adult. When she and I spoke about it, she was in her forties, he was in his eighties, they raised a son together, and she seemed genuinely happy in her marriage. Wow!
Another one that really creeped me out was a woman who married her son’s college roommate. I dated the son after his mom married his friend. It creeped him out. He said that he would bring his friends home from school for breaks. He noticed that one of his friends would just hang out at his childhood home when the rest of them went out for some fun. This kept happening, which he thought was weird, but he didn’t even suspect that the friend had something going with his mom. I met the couple once. They were not a match. If I didn’t know they were married, I would have guessed he was her son or a neighbor. She was not an attractive woman and he was good looking enough. It was so weird! I don’t think the mom was married when they met, btw.
My dad married a woman who was younger than my oldest brother. Lol, she was an appropriate age to marry any of my three oldest brothers. That creeped everyone else out, but I actually liked her. She was fun and I liked playing with her kids.
When I found out that my sister was dating a boy who we babysat, that gave me the creeps. He is like 12 years younger than her, the age difference didn’t bother me, I just couldn’t get past the fact that we both babysat him. Ugh! But I guess they were good for each other. She broke it off because she wanted him to have kids of his own and she couldn’t have more kids. It was a big sacrifice for her and I admire that she did it.
After I wrote this out, I noticed that I have a bigger ick-response when the female is older. Interesting! I will be pondering why I feel that way. I don’t feel icky at all with the thought of a 40-something woman with a 30-something man in general. It doesn’t interest me, but it doesn’t bother me either. The reason it bothered me with my sister is because we babysat her love interest… yuck!
Great question! I’m waiting at the park while my 8-year-old plays with her “new best friend.” She doesn’t want to leave yet. I mean they are “best friends” after all. Your question gave me something to ponder. Thanks!
@Lovisa
“After I wrote this out, I noticed that I have a bigger ick-response when the female is older. Interesting! I will be pondering why I feel that way.”
It is good you are aware of the difference in response. We all have biases. Here’s mine: I find the older man-younger woman more suspect, as in I somehow think the girl is being taken advantage of – but that is totally sexist as men can be taken advantage of as well. I wonder if it has a little to do that I went out with older men when I was in my teens (and there were more than even the ones I actually dated who were interested). I now look back at them and wonder what they thought they were doing, going out with a high school girl. I never felt at the time I was taken advantage of though, as I had a lot of control over the situation (including whether it continued).
What if the woman (or man) is in their 30s though – and someone in their 40s is attracted to them? Like you, this seems to me more acceptable. Just because both parties are clearly adults and know what they are getting into (you’d hope).
I think in whichever gender direction, the age difference becomes less of an issue the older the couple get.
Interestingly, most limerence cases appear to have quite a significant age gap (around 15 seems average). I wonder if there is a significance to this? Is it because most people who get it are having a mid-life crisis as well?
“ Interestingly, most limerence cases appear to have quite a significant age gap (around 15 seems average). I wonder if there is a significance to this? Is it because most people who get it are having a mid-life crisis as well?”
I wonder that, too.
I like this guy’s theory about older women with younger men.
https://youtu.be/9tKRRa24wgI
@Lovisa
Good video, and is consistent with evolutionary psychology. Love me a graph.
So, it would seem that these hot younger guys like me not ‘cos I am hot, but because I am old. Hahaha, that surely puts things into perspective.
Like CSC says, if you don’t laugh you cry.
I might just add … a few thoughts came to mind. One is that the older man-younger woman thing sort of makes sense to most people because of procreation. The older woman-younger man one, as the good doctor says, is all about enjoyment and pleasure. I am sure most people do think to themselves what kind of pleasure. It is so totally outside the whole sex-is-for-procreation religious narrative that maybe unconsciously it might make people look upon it askance.
The other thing that came to mind is how this is such a man’s game in a way. Younger men get the older women, and they both have fun. They break up after a few years. He grows in attractiveness (because of career taking off on average), and begins to be able to “afford” younger, fertile women. They look upon him (and his assets) with approval and he goes on to make babies with her. The older women’s graph line just keeps descending till she gets to her grave I suppose. Bleak much?
Any woman embarking on such a thing better guard her heart, and guard it well. Regardless, it is going to sting when the inevitable story that graph tells unfolds. Her alternative is to find someone her age range (who isn’t busy with younger fertile women) and then she has the pleasure of geriatric care. Lol. I really am in a bleak mood.
Older But Not Wiser, you are cracking me up.
I guess that women can lose their value with age. Not all of us. I met a beautiful woman on the trail today who is old enough to be my mom. She was on mile 7 when I was on mile 4; both of us started from home and she lives further from the trailhead than I do. I was impressed with her beautiful skin, lovely figure and stamina. She also had a sweet and sincere disposition. She was stunning. I have hope that I will age like her. I might. My aunts are beautiful ladies. My grandma and her sisters were beautiful ladies. I have hope for me and my sister. Anyway, it doesn’t matter that much because I believe in traditional family relationships. I intend to be with my SO forever. If one of us dies young, the other will just have to pick from whoever is on the market at that time. I seem to attract high quality men so I’m not worried about it. I can’t remember, but it seems like you’re married, too.
Oof. @olderbutnotwiser — you are in a very bleak mood, indeed. But, at least you are honoring the “honesty” component of the original post…haha. I literally laughed at the pleasures of geriatric care mention. Gah.
Hm. Maybe you can be “hot *and* old”. Why the heck not.
But…I also think you’re right in saying that even though we might be able to attract them, the chances of KEEPING them are slim. I think maybe the best way to look at the youngers is to enjoy them, but not too much.
But…I would also say that if I think about it, I would not want to keep one. I would only want one around on *my* terms. I think that’s what my LE is really about. I like the fantasy. Not so much the reality. Do I want to sit at a boring brunch with him after we’ve been together for a while? No. Do I want to learn that he doesn’t replace his toothbrush enough? No. Do I want to deal with his Mother, his Sisters?…His Friends? NO. So, I don’t really want a relationship. I want…to be desired. And I wish I could control the duration of that desire…I wish I could control the remaining youth in my body….
But I can’t.
The thing I *might* be able to control are my emotions. But even that…it’s dicey. I think your advice, which I keep coming back around to, of keeping your eyes open and a clear head, is warranted. Actually, that has helped me a great deal in the past few days, as I’ve tried to sort through all this.
Knowing I’m not alone has helped…and thinking about how happy I am when my mind is clear, vs. how tortured and unproductive I am when I’m having an LE…it’s like night and day.
I’m sorry you’re feeling bleak. I understand for sure.
Have you ever heard of Yoga Nidra? It’s not movement based yoga, it’s a kind of relaxation technique. It has really helped me in finding inner reserves. I am not a “meditator”. It’s more of a guided thing. And you just…lie there. But it is yoga, and it does foster the mind/body connection. I did not know this, but Yoga actually means “Yoke”, as in to yoke the mind and body. They need to work together…. There’s a lovely woman on YouTube named Ally Boothroyd, her sessions are free and really high quality.
Sh*t. Now I’ve turned into a middle age woman who talks yoga. This is the complete opposite of what I ever thought would happen. Bring on the billowing linen pants. :/
“I like the fantasy. Not so much the reality. … I want…to be desired.”
It keeps coming back to this. Women consistently say we want to be desired (the men are more a mix of they want to rescue and/or be desired). And by desired, I think we mean a visceral, non-intellectualized desire. I am, objectively/intellectually, desirable as in I tick all the boxes a woman of my age and place in life. But who wants to be a check list? I want to be wanted as a woman. I want to play the desire game. I want that hot look in someone’s eyes when they look at me, not some cool weighing of my value as a companion on some invisible scale. By that token, the more involuntary the attraction the better.
So I’m glad things I say are helping you too because it helps me to read what you say, a lot. And I’m glad to make someone else’s life better from this debacle. Your messages are a balm. I feel less alone in my experience. Less alone in being triggered by a young man’s desire for me. Sometimes I think it is their desire rather than themselves that is so appealing (despite all the other charms we listed of them). It is the desire (and what it says about ourselves) that glimmers for us. Who is reciprocating who first? That moment is often hard to catch.
Instead of Limerent Object, we should call them Limerent Desire (LD). Love me some acronyms, this site is full of them.
And when you start thinking about the “reality” of the person and situation – that is when the mental calculus is being made. The meeting with family (urk), all of life’s logistics and people’s quirks. None of those make it into fantasy land! But maybe we should dwell on those more as a deprogramming strategy. Certainly thinking about the vast amounts of school debt these young guys carry is sobering (I am, for the most part, a very practical woman). My LO has a lot of hang ups, and objectively speaking, he would be a very high-maintenance boyfriend for anyone. I’m not sure, if I were the correct age to “make a life” with him, I would choose to do it. I would instead choose over again, someone like my SO. I prefer to be the adored, pampered on in my relationships, and much as I like the idea of lavishing adoration on a lost-but-not-too-lost young man, that would get old pretty fast (pun intended)
“how happy I am when my mind is clear, vs. how tortured and unproductive I am when I’m having an LE” Yes, I realize I have no problem with the desire, it is when my reaction to it is out of control that I have an issue with it. A bit hypocritical of me, considering all my comments about wanting someone else to be involuntarily desiring me. But like you say, being honest here.
I have heard of Yoga Nidra, but not actually done it. With your recommendation, maybe I will hunt down an actual class. Thanks for mentioning it.
I’m also considering changing my handle from Older But Not Wiser to Older But Hotter, what do you think?
OBNW, you are definitely not alone. And not alone in how you feel about your SO either. There is a truly bonded love between my SO and me…but one person can’t be everything to someone else. And into that little space…came the glimmer. ugh!
I think it sounds like it’s the same scenario for you….
The result, for me at least, has been is a messy mix of guilt, longing, dishonesty…anxiety…shame…I know if I were single, and going through this, I would feel…anxiety…will he reciprocate? does he like me? etc… But I would not have the guilt, shame, feelings of dishonesty…that are integral now, because of the feeling I am on the fringes of betraying my committed relationship.
Then, based on our conversation, is all the internal stuff…between us and ourselves. The “me” in the middle of all these whirling things… And her point in life, independent of others!…and whether she has given enough to herself. And the love I have for myself, and how I want to treat myself to the best life I can provide…And all of that. Have I done for myself? Time is moving on! I must make hay while the sun shines! It’s like an annoying parrot sitting on my shoulder. :/
It is all incredibly complicated to navigate. I think, especially for people who are not young…who have truly realized they are not able to go backwards…(I have seen some people, men, mainly, realize this at 80. For women, it mainly seems to happen around 50’s.)
I have a history of intense flames for people. But…they pale in comparison to the sh*tshow of these relatively minor midlife limerences that have made me question every nook and cranny of my life. That, and not the rest, is the absolute worst part. I can honestly say that.
And yes! Older But Hotter. I love it.
Older but not Wiser…I (of course haha) feel the exact same. The older man, much younger female, gives me the creeps. But…oddly enough, I do not get the creeps for older man/much younger man, or older woman/much younger woman, or older woman/much younger man. It’s ONLY the creeps for the older men.
And similarly, the funny thing is, I was consistently involved with older men when I was a young woman. And found it a turn-on….now that I’m almost 50, somehow I have lost bandwidth on that.
…though I know it is not for me to question what others desire….if they are adults, it is absolutely none of my business, and not for me to judge.
I wonder if it is a vestige of the patriarchal society we live in? There is, by default, a gender power imbalance between men and women. It is somewhat nullified by age when it comes to older women-younger men, but exacerbated by the older man-younger woman. And neutral in any homosexual pairing.
Honestly, OBW (OBH!) I think yes. I have thought about this so much in the past few days. I feel…in the past several years…that I have developed a really deep rage about the man’s world…
I definitely think that the horror at older women’s bodies (and by extension, minds) runs so deep in the world, that it’s like the air we breathe.
But, I also see a lot of hope in how younger women are seeing their bodies. As a Gen X, I’m actually eagerly awaiting the day the Millenials go into peri-meno. Because they love to bring things out into the open. Then, when Gen Z hits it….whoa. It may actually become an accepted thing to just…get older.
Despite all the influencer culture, and all the emphasis on keeping age at bay, I also believe there are many very connected younger women who are better at seeing the “big picture” than I was at their age. While I may miss that bus due to being in my late 40’s now…I am excited to know that there does seem to be some change in the air…at least, I believe there is. And I believe it’s at a cultural level, which, once it takes root, can be virtually unstoppable. That can be one of the most beautiful parts of humanity…that undercurrent.
In the question of age gap I really don’t see it as an issue as long as obviously both are age of consent. I don’t really see an issue either way with whoever is the older gender.
I do society sees it different. 50 year professor sleeps with his 20 something female student and people are clutching pearls. 40 something female teacher sleeps with her 17 year old male student and he’s getting high fives. As if both couldn’t be consensual. But I think that might have to do with people thinking young men can’t be taken advantage of. And somehow young ladies can never be in control of the situation.
But personally if they are of age of consent and are both happy with each other, I don’t see why a significant age gap is a big deal. After all, we are all looking for happiness.
“I wonder if there is a significance to this? Is it because most people who get it are having a mid-life crisis as well?”
Before I discovered limerence and this place I did do a significant amount of online research on men and mid life crisis. Of that research the far largest amount of work crush, EA or PA started, for men, in the work place. And for the most part their work crush was a significantly younger woman.
Most of them (of the testimonies I read) attributed that to feeling “over the hill” and wondering if they could still get the attention of young woman. Were they still desirable to women? Which I can get. LO was 15 years younger than me and a very attractive woman. Did I want LO to notice me? I am not sure to be honest. I liked her attention and her company. But I don’t think that was to “puff out my chest”. LO needed someone her age and a similar place in life not an old man like me lol Even if I was willing to go outside my marriage. But my whole rescue complex may have made it look like that for others in the office.
Age, like a lot of things, carries nuance.
If all you’re looking for is sex, age doesn’t matter. As you note, as long as both parties are above the age of consent, it’s legal. However, you put up any 40+ individual against an 18yr old and it’s not a fair encounter. Any 40+ individual should be able to run circles around an 18yr old. Or, most 20 somethings for that matter. Experience makes a difference and you can leverage that experience to achieve your ends. Wealth, power, status, and even recognizing your target has poor self-esteem are potent weapons.
There’s a reason predators hunt where and how they do.
Also, it depends on what you want. If you’re looking for an LTR, age matters. People are different at 20 than they are at 30. They’re different at 30 than they are at 40. And, so on. As you get older, the differences are less pronounced but they’re still there.
LO #2 was 1.5 years older than I was. She told me, “You should find some sweet young thing who adores you and not waste your time with a crusty old broad like me [33]. I asked her why she called me and why was I there. The EAP counselor said that wasn’t the response LO #2 was fishing for. In the end, I took her advice. If her FB friend request wasn’t an accident and she was looking at me, LO #2 knows that I took her advice. Take that, Klingon!
My wife is 9 years younger than I am. I took her to a company picnic. The next day, a coworker asked how I’d managed to snag a woman like that. I told him that I picker her up in a bar [true]. He asked how old she was [23]. He asked how old I was [32].
His response: “You cradle robbing son-of-a-bitch.”
I knew our age difference would be a factor and I thought long and hard before asking her to marry me. It was worth the risk and it panned out. I married a trophy wife but, then again, I had a trophy mother.
I have a former coworker that would make an eminently suitable candidate under the right circumstances. We match up pretty well across the board. She’s 10 years younger than I am. Her career is peaking and I’m retired. Would that be an issue? Maybe, maybe not, but it would be a consideration.
LE,
“If all you’re looking for is sex, age doesn’t matter. As you note, as long as both parties are above the age of consent, it’s legal. However, you put up any 40+ individual against an 18yr old and it’s not a fair encounter. Any 40+ individual should be able to run circles around an 18yr old. Or, most 20 somethings for that matter. Experience makes a difference and you can leverage that experience to achieve your ends. Wealth, power, status, and even recognizing your target has poor self-esteem are potent weapons.”
Yes, totally agree. It’s a power imbalance. It’s legal but it’s morally questionable.
And, let’s be honest, most 20-somethings want to date people around their age. Everybody’s at the height of their physicality at that age. It just makes sense.
My LO has a guy friend at work that I know she sees on the side. This guy has more gray in his beard than Santa Claus. This guy has to at least be between 45 and 50. And he may be older. LO is 28, I’m 52.
It’s been said that with our age differences, anything between LO and myself wouldn’t work. That might be true because it’s just me she’s not that into. Don’t think it has much to do with the age difference. This other co worker is as old as dirt. It’s obvious. I think she likes older guys. Big older guys, like me..
“I actually see the whole LE as just a part of my late flowering after years of being asleep. ”
OBW
I’ve been thinking on this a lot since LO left a year ago. How I changed “for her” (which is what it looked like to co-workers and my wife). I think LO was just the catalyst for some desire to grow into the person I am now. It may not have been the best way for all involved, like getting in a drunken car accident before getting sober.
I’m starting to see what Miss Lovisa calls the “good” parts of limerence. It tested my resolve to be faithful to my wife. It opened up this person that was inside me that didn’t know how to get out. LO just brought that out in me. From my outside fashion to the confidence to be just me, without caring about what other people think. Loosing weight and eating better might have be a subconscious desire to look attractive to LO. All of it may have been LO and the limerence but the results stayed past LO leaving. (I’ve gained a few pounds back but don’t tell my doctor. I still have six months before my checkup.)
I think the limerence brought my wife and I closer together. There maybe aspects of our marriage that need help; time to heal. But when you can cry in your wife’s arms because your limerent brain is obsessing about another woman with intrusive thoughts and she consoles you … that’s better than when LO was around and we’d fight quite a bit about her. I was very hesitant to disclose to her back in January when I found this community. But I am glad that I did. Her support has been very helpful in speeding up the process of getting out of this LE. I think it has been about a month since that last intrusive thought.
But even talking about LO here the thoughts are far more objective and posted here in hopes to help others like others have helped me. Let me get through my last test, June 3 (one year since she left) as far as intrusive thoughts and I will be on the road to a clear head. Here’s to the new me.
Adam,
Your wife sounds like a gem…she sounds like a very strong person.
I understand about growing closer. My SO doesn’t know about my limerences.
I have been thinking about the “intrusive thought” aspect. I think, in some ways, that is the most destructive part of an LE.
One thing that has helped me, personally, in my “Mature Limerences” (middle-age episodes…) which I did not know in my Early Limerences (episodes when I was in my late 20’s) is that it’s kind of like having the flu. It is awful and it is very, very disruptive. But it is not forever, and it WILL pass. Mindfulness has helped me to “keep the faith” in this regard…faith that I will feel better, and that I will move on. I don’t know when. And I can’t control when. But I know I WILL. That is a key.
I also suffer from fairly severe rounds of depression – so I have learned that coping techinque, of seeing an episode as a kind of bout with the flu, but not fatal, and I apply it to lots of things, now.
I hope tomorrow is a great day for you.