I’ve been thinking a lot recently about the emotional resistance that we feel when confronted with the need to change our lives.
I argue – and sincerely believe – that the best cure for unwanted limerence is living with purpose. Relief, freedom, comes from orienting your life towards goals that are uplifting and fulfilling. That new focus makes the sparkles of limerence seem more like a pretty spectacle that you can choose to enjoy or not, than a mesmerising seduction. Often the best choice is to ignore the firework display as an side show or distraction.
In contrast, if you are aimlessly wandering the path of life, those limerent sparkles can be a bewitching will o’ the wisp, luring you off the road and deep into the swamps. If you follow, open-mouthed and bewitched, you’ll quickly get out of your depth.
When living a purposeful life, a lot of the psychological vulnerability to limerence evaporates, because your subconscious is no longer seeking escape from a demoralising status quo. Life will continue to have challenges, of course, but living with purpose makes facing those obstacles feel more like battling for a better future than taking on yet more punishment. More a racehorse leaping fences than a beast of burden. If you feel like your energy is carrying you forward towards meaningful happiness, why would you want to get diverted with a limerent affair?
There is a strange feature of human nature, though, that confounds these fine ideals. Even after resolving to live more purposefully, orient yourself towards worthy goals, transform your life for the better, it still takes a surprising amount of discipline and effort to actually take action. It seems perverse that we can have an epiphany about how a new mode of being could remodel our lives for the better, and yet still meet internal resistance about making those changes.
No matter how persuaded we are by the benefits of transforming life, it often continues to feel like a slog. The liberating energy of renewal can be great for launching a purposeful life, but maintaining it somehow becomes irrationally difficult. Like limerence, purposeful living can sometimes feel like a constant battle to prevent the slide back into old, unhealthy habits.
I find this fascinating. Why is it that we can intellectually understand that one way of living is superior, but not follow through with doing what’s required to achieve it? Real life experience teaches us that good habits lead to better outcomes, and that accomplishing worthwhile things has countless psychological benefits, yet we still default to vices and habits that are – at best – sedating.
It’s hard to avoid the feeling that there is some sort of second personality living within us, who doesn’t have our best interests in mind. Indeed, this is often the way that the conflict between virtue and vice is framed in art – the angel and devil on either shoulders, Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, an internal voice of rebellion. Some of the more mystically inclined psychotherapists also make sense of it in this way – perhaps as a scared inner child, an archetypal anima or animus, or a shadow that is too dark to face.
As a neuroscientist, I look on this contradiction as a consequence of competing drives. The subcortical neural systems for reward, fear and arousal fire up in response to environmental cues, feeding forward urgent messages to the executive centres of the brain. The cortex provides context, and feeds back to regulate the more primitive systems, as appropriate (with varying degrees of success).
Those subcortical neural systems are better at encoding simple, immediate lessons (LO smiling at me feels wonderful), than complex, slow lessons (if I forgo pleasure now my overall health will be better in the future). That leads to conflicts where simple habits that give quick relief from discomfort are easily and deeply ingrained, but complex, more cognitively demanding, lessons need to be layered over the top as regulatory controls. The struggle of delayed gratification, essentially.
This neuroscience perspective is valuable, of course, but it lacks the emotional punch of a good story. When it comes to taking purposeful action, having an inspiring narrative always wins out over an academic argument.
That leads me to a book recommendation:
Steven Pressfield frames the difficulty of creating art as a war against an inner force called Resistance. His message is that our lives are constrained by this internal battle, and that until we learn how to vanquish Resistance, our lives will always be limited.
Most of us have two lives. The life we live, and the unlived life within us. Between the two stands Resistance.
Steven Pressfield
It’s a clever literary device, as it moves the approach to battling the desire for comfort away from the intellectualism of executive oversight, to a direct conflict with an opposing subcortical drive – fear of an adversary. Instead of trying to layer discipline over craving, Resistance is treated as a foe, an emotional force that can’t be reasoned with. At an executive level we might know it’s a contrivance, but the feeling of being in a battle for your fate is much more stirring and visceral than cerebral regulation.
The whole book is a series of thoughts, aphorisms, and anecdotes about battling the Resistance that holds us back from pursuing worthwhile aims – whether they are artistic, health related, entrepreneurial, sporting, or any other activity that requires effort and purpose.
It’s a great read, and helpful for lifting flagging spirits when you find yourself in a demotivated slump.
I’ll end with Pressfield’s opinion on the character of Resistance and why it must be fought:
Resistance will tell you anything to keep you from doing your work. It will perjure, fabricate, falsify; seduce, bully cajole… Resistance has no conscience. It will pledge anything to get a deal, then double-cross you as soon as your back is turned. If you take Resistance at its word, you deserve everything you get. Resistance is always lying and always full of shit.
Steven Pressfield
Yeah, Resistance. I’ve met him.
Dear Dr L,
This post is well timed. Only yesterday I was talking with LiS and ABCD about needing a bigger strategy when my main operational strategy doesnt work, perhaps because on certain days I am feeling weaker or less resilient. So although I know what I need to do, I need a larger strategy to stay on track with the more day-to-day one.
This framing of the lower sub cortical and higher executive processing helps. Both day to day strategies and executive strategies need strengthening…
“Resistance will tell you anything to keep you from doing your work “
“Resistance has no conscience.”
Here’s a list of virtues you can draw from to help you achieve a purposeful living.
(1)
Site: Scott Jeffrey. com
“A complete Master List of Virtues from the Ancient Tradition “ by Scott Jeffrey, revised recently, March 27/24
“ Virtues are essential for psychological development and self cultivation. Without cultivating virtues, we are prone to struggle with impulse control, addiction tendencies , mental illness, and overall suffering.”
You have to cultivate them and apply it to your behaviors. That is: acquiring knowledge, understanding it, and having the wisdom to apply it. The old thoughts have to be replaced y new ones. It’s starting with a new clean slate.
“The meaning of life isn’t prescribed. It’s created.” Dr. Frankl.
(2). Site: Quora.com
Article : “ Is it true that life has no intrinsic meaning? If not, can you demonstrate (logically) why it does?
There’s a saying which says: “ In life you’re the statue, other times you’re the pigeon.” Is this true of us…?
Have a great blessed week.
I am feeling more resilient. One blossoming glimmer a few months back has been successfully squashed back to normal coworker feelings. Now, another young man with my triggers is giving me the eye and talking to me more than before. I know my limits: no exchanging cell phone numbers, and no additional conversing beyond time at work.
He’s asked me already about my details — married, kids, Christian (the usual deterrents) — yet still seeks out conversation with me. I feel like a sensor as well as a recovering, chronic limerent. I hope this will also just be another normal coworker-ship. If I know my limits, it should work like a few months ago did.
Hi Limerent Nurse, it’s great that you have the knowledge, experience and tools to manage this. My goodness, it seems like you must be a very attractive lady, a man- magnet ! 😀
Any of your beauty secrets welcome ( inner and outer beauty) ! I hope your knees are now healed good too.
Dear IMHO,
That is very sweet of you ☺️ I think I just happen to work in a place with lots of people, so I have many interactions with different people all the time. I think the best thing going for me is that I tend to just look younger than I am. I’m 41, and proud of it. Externally, I suppose not drinking much alcohol (maybe 2-4 glasses of white wine a month? — sorry, Adam, white wines are delicious!)), never smoked, drink lots of water and (trying to) exercise are all I can really account for. I don’t dye my hair, I keep it natural even though I have a little grey coming in.
I am a white girl who speaks Spanish as a second language. Hispanic men are very fascinated by that I have found over the years.
Internally, I love Jesus and want to please Him and follow Him. And I mean, literally — when I feel His unctionor hear the Holy Spirit, I follow it.
Not sure if that helps, but that’s my story. 💙
How about you? Do you have any secrets for me? 😃
Thanks L.nurse, that is a great list and I’m sure you absolutely glow as a result. I indulge maybe a bit too much and inconsistent with my health regimes ! Maybe I need to take up a new language, not that I’m seeking new men! Ive also looked much younger than my age too. Does everyone think that though?!
I’m sure LE has aged me though. Anyway, what can I offer you in return ?
Very high SPF. Moisturize and massage face AND neck. Dye hair (ha ha). Wear what suits you, not what you fall in love with on the hanger. Walk with purpose. And recently I try to engage in outside world more, smile and be more kind /tolerant to strangers.
Very interesting Dr.L, in that reading that book a few years ago released major creative blocks in me, which allowed me to release songs, poems, plays and novels later in life, some of which still earn me royalties to this day.
It will be interesting to think about how I can apply that overcoming of creative resistance, largely down to Steven Pressfields ‘War of Art’ to the Limerence Limbo I am fighting everyday. Tormented throughout the last week by going NC once again following dinners and outings that mean nothing as she returns to the man who mistreats her with intermittent attention. I am fighting the ease of sending a WhatsApp message that would restart dialogue then a meeting and back round the whole pointless and distressing merry-go-round! The only merry is the short lived dopamine hit followed by hopeless hope.
I am composing and deleting conciliatory texts every day now and trying to avoid watching her life through the last seen notifications of Whatsapp.
I know it’s mad and I can only pray my sanity lives long enough to slay the Limerent Dragon this time round, once and for all. For starters I will get dressed, then walk and then do some work on my second novel in a nice cafe. Purposeful activity! The temptation of WhatsApp will follow me. Damn the ease of social media.
I have had two years therapy too since this whole thing stated with this LO. Fully aware of childhood triggers now, so would be in a much worse state otherwise, but hasn’t yet killed of all of my the ‘moth to the flame’ tendencies and of course that is largely down to me re-engaging, often after months of NC. I sing in a band with one of her best friends so as someone once sang
“Christ you know it ain’t easy, you know how hard it can be, the way things are going, they’re gonna crucify me”
John Lennon
Hi Mike, I’m sorry you’re going through the unpleasant part of the merry-go-round. It’s nice to hear that you are getting out and doing something you enjoy.
Happy Easter!
Thank you Lovisa, Happy Easter to you too
Hi Mike,
I can totally relate to this – I have been going around and around on the same merry-go-round for 3 years now. It started as a love affair (we were both married) but he has since left his wife and is dating. I have younger kids and different circumstances and havent left my marriage (though there are many problems in it and I want to). He does not want a relationship though he says all the time he loves me. I am tormented by it instead and obsessed with him even though i know it is not going anywhere and he is very flaky and uncertain. its driving me crazy and after 6 months NC we caught up only for me to find out he has fallen for someone else (though loves us both!). I was doing pretty well in NC and im so angry at myself for going backwards. I feel like I have to start all over again in recovery and also that i’ve made a fool of myself with him. i feel the urge to make contact too but to what end? I keep asking myself – what do i want from contact – as you say its a dopamine hit followed by alot of pain and shame.
Hi Leila,
I would say to not be too hard on yourself. I’m sure your recovery will be quicker now you have clarity and you did gain resilience and learnings through your last NC, so, it’s actually not back to square one that you think it is. He sounds like a bit of a Casanova from what you have written and having a great time wooing the ladies. And you can list negative things about him to help you move on. You deserve more don’t you. What things can you do for yourself instead of contacting him. Look forwards not back.
Maybe a bit of Self love, self care and improvement.
Best wishes
@IMHO
A couple of years ago I looked into what color “season” I was because I wasn’t sure what colors enhanced my natural coloring…. so when you mentioned “wear what you love” I also like to wear what colors look best on me. There’s a free site called colorwise.me where you put in your pic and it helps you analyze what color palette works best with your natural coloring 😉
My palette is a called “soft summer” and I love that I not only love the colors, but that they enhance my natural coloring. Maybe that’s why I shine! 🌟
LN,
LO #2 (also a nurse) worked in men’s department of a major department store in college. She had outstanding taste in men’s clothes.
When we started dating in 1983, she came over one morning and went through my closet with a garbage bag. Seriously. Then, she took me shopping. She picked out everything. I paid for it. I still have two camel hair sport coats I bought on that trip. I can’t fit into them anymore but my son can.
When she was done, I had a completely new wardrobe. I was a “Sharp Dressed Man” – ZZ Top (1983) https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=7wRHBLwpASw&t=1s
Part of the transformation was getting my colors done. I think I still have the book lying around somewhere. It’s like the palette book you get at the paint store.
I am a Winter.
@LE,
That is so fun to know a man who knows his “color season”. Your LO#2 was a fascinating person hearing your stories… I also appreciate all the 1983 references as that is my birth year 🥳
I have struggled with styles over the years because I like classic looks, not usually trendy looks. If nothing else, at least I know what colors to buy for all those comfy scrubs I get to wear 🙂
Dear Dr. L,
Thank you for the book recommendation. I’ll give it a try.
Do you think it’s normal to initially embark upon the “purposeful living” journey purely intellectually? What I mean to say is that I have been doing so and made many changes that I would classify it as an intensively lifestyle change; yet, I do so listlessly. While I have been “successful” as far as maintaining the changes, I nevertheless do so without any gusto and feel as empty emotionally as ever. Perhaps more so since I was hoping the purposeful living changes would impact my emotional life and it simply hasn’t. Is that normal? I assume that in time the benefits will filter to the other areas of my life, but at the moment it’s a mechanical, intellectual endeavour devoid of satisfaction.
“Do you think it’s normal to initially embark upon the “purposeful living” journey purely intellectually? What I mean to say is that I have been doing so and made many changes that I would classify it as an intensively lifestyle change; yet, I do so listlessly. While I have been “successful” as far as maintaining the changes, I nevertheless do so without any gusto and feel as empty emotionally as ever.”
@Invalid Username.
You raise some interesting points. I think the thing with limerence is that limerence deceives our brains into believing all goals – apart from trying to forge a closer connection to LO – are inherently a waste of time. And it’s very hard to get off that rollercoaster voluntarily, because I guess limerence does make life feel very spiritually/emotionally meaningful. (All this deep meaning might be an illusion, but the more primitive part of our brain doesn’t know/doesn’t care).
Neuroscientist Lucy Bain wrote a wonderful article “Limerence Test: 9 Psychological Signs That It Is Not Real Love”, which can be read in full on her website Neurosparkle. These are some quotes that stood out to me, which might explain your ongoing feelings of listlessness while trying to motivate yourself to live a purposeful life.
“If you consider this person the source of an incomprehensibly powerful, drug-like ‘rush’ that feels exciting and visceral rather than soft and warm, you are certainly limerent (and over someone who is not reciprocating this adoration; if they felt the same, you two would be together).”
“When they [limerents] are ‘starved’ of their LO’s affection, attention or presence (in real life or online), they will naturally be subjected to a withdrawal phase that will have them dysphoric, apathetic and frequently suicidal.”
“During these dips, sufferers bear the burden of relentless crying fits into pillows to the point of wanting to scream, suicide ideation and the inability to enjoy anything (anhedonia). You may also experience intense nausea, disrupted digestion, a headache and unusually-strong waves of fatigue …”
” … limerence is a fantasy romantic bond that stays glossy and thrilling through never fully evolving in the human realm …”
“Limerence … washes your prefrontal cortex with so much dopamine and noradrenaline that the limerent will sometimes find themselves magically ‘relieved’ of binge eating, sugar addiction and the desire to chain-smoke.”
“This person [LO] is acting as a potent stimulus for your limbic brain, and you are neurochemically saturated to the point of not even thinking about once-alluring substances.”
Hi Sammy!
Thanks so much for the recommended article. While some of it is not quite applicable to myself, there certainly are some nuggets of clarity there. Particularly, what you mentioned from point 5, “This Person Stops You Desiring Other Drugs”. Guilty.
Also guilty (how embarrassing):
“If you are sure that you would renounce all previous passions and circumvent any obstacles to be with this person, you are admitting that you are completely emotionally dependent on their attention and suffering from drug addiction.”
*sigh* But, realizing that it was limerence and being a mind-over-emotion type of personality, I forced myself the suppress my emotions to make the right choice and go NC.
There were also these statements of hope in the article:
“However, if you are proactive in your recovery and allow yourself to withdraw, sitting with the pain with the knowledge that it will pass, you will overcome a limerent episode in a matter of weeks.”
… and …
“That is not to say that distracting yourself from such tumultuous emotions is ever easy. … but you will need to be particularly careful to squash any troublesome thoughts that surface when they inevitably do seem boring compared to your LO. This is all temporary, do not let yourself forget that.”
Those statements seem to confirm that it’s best to go through the motions for purposeful living and hopefully in time the feeling of emptiness and meaninglessness will pass.
Dr. L’s blog above really hits home: I think there’s a huge schism for me between the mental and emotional. Getting off the – as you put it – metaphoric roller coaster was pretty easy, mentally, and the emotions have for the most part died, but now I feel nothing. I suppose, to use a different metaphor, it could be a hangover from the LE and as Lucy Bain said in that article, I have to somehow retrain my brain to experience joy again.
Thanks, Sammy, that helped a lot!
Sammy! Thanks for the tip on Lucy Bain. Her take on Limerence has proven to be very useful to me, especially the blog about Quantum Shifting. It brought more flesh to Dr L’s purposeful living concept that I have struggled with as too abstract to grasp for me. Reading and pondering, more useful ways to tackle the beast with!
@CamillaGeorge.
“Thanks for the tip on Lucy Bain. Her take on Limerence has proven to be very useful to me, especially the blog about Quantum Shifting. It brought more flesh to Dr L’s purposeful living concept that I have struggled with as too abstract to grasp for me. Reading and pondering, more useful ways to tackle the beast with!”
Glad to be of service. Hilariously, I’m actually the reverse of you – I sometimes find Lucy’s explanations too abstract and Dr. L’s explanations more digestible, although I enjoy everything Lucy writes.
When I’m really confused, I head over to the limerence forum on Reddit and find out what the intellectual peasantry … sorry … cough, cough … what enlightened laypeople … have to say. 😁
I’m like a crown prince who disguises himself on purpose to walk around incognito among future subjects. I want to know what the people truly think and feel, without fear that honest feedback will lead to negative evaluation of providers of said honest feedback.
I can relate to this… I suspect most limerents can so thank you for sharing. Finding happiness in the small stuff of life is definitely a learned skill that requires real intention and practice.
I am curious, what have you tried to make your life more purposeful?
I can’t say that I have succeeded in overcoming this problem either. I have tended to use work, and the flow-state it can inspire, as a strategy but my LO is a co-worker so this method has embedded my limerence more deeply by association.
The form of purposeful living that has been the most satisfying and effective at reducing my dependency on limerence and LO has been working on my connections/relationships with the other people in my life, even growing new connections. Mental note to self to make ore effort as have let those efforts drop off recently.
Wishing you well.
Hi Allie,
My recipe for purposeful living has been the following:
1) Greater self-awareness (that includes not only being honest with myself, but also doing a lot of evaluations, such as MBTI, Enneagram, Attitudinal psyche, etc., to gain an insight into what are my drives and my “traps”)
2) Improving family relationships by being less myself (LOL). Trying to be more present and less withdrawn. Trying to share more. It’s a struggle.
3) Improved attention to the physical self (diet and exercise)
4) Improved physical space (i.e. home and at work, trying to be less cluttered and less inattentive to immediate needs)
Those are the main areas. It’s going ok. Each of those points would likely get different grades, but overall, it hasn’t made my life more enriched on an emotional or “happiness” level (I’m assuming/hoping that will come).
Like you said, mental note to reinforce those. I have also noticed by making this list, some of these are not getting the attention I intended.
That’s unfortunate your LO is a co-worker. I couldn’t imagine having my LO in my life in any way. 🙁
Allie 1,
I also found that connecting with other people/ghosts, especially making new connections, is most effective ways to reduce intensity of my residual LE or to mentally and emotionally further distance the unavailable LO. When I’m inspired or challenged to think hard in order to answer some very tough life questions or to carry on substantial conversations, the silent LO would naturally retrieves to a back burner of the mind.
Still, LO and residual rumination cannot be totally eliminated by old or new external or internal intellectual or concrete activities. At most, LO suspends out there like an icon in my vast mental space – subconscious and conscious, which is okay as long as I am not over distressed or taken by such an icon, as long as I do not act upon my instinctual desire… I still appreciate the existence of such an icon; without it, I picture, my life would be grayer, even Romeo is there. No one can replace another….
I see your situation is tougher, since you still work with your LO, mine is going to physically vanish from my life in a month…. I’m experiencing this doom in this long Easter break, which is quite melancholy…
Sorry Snow… anticipating separation from LO… I totally get that feeling of impending doom.
Thanks, Allie 1.
This morning after waking up from a series of misfortunate dream scenes, I truly realized this doom’s approaching (have been in denial of it or still couldn’t believe it after a few months!) and got a panic attack for a few seconds. Then, I stayed in bed “hugging” the incredible sadness… until I felt nothing more to feel and had to get up.
After a 40 minutes of cardio workout (including dancing), I felt more than fine and taught an online lesson. 🙂
In the past, when LO were around while the school in session, my LE was light; But when he was away (vacations), my longing for an imagined, better version of LO got stronger.
Soon, he’s going to be permanently away, I don’t know how I’m going to feel after that doomsday… 🥹
@Invalid Username.
“But, realizing that it was limerence and being a mind-over-emotion type of personality, I forced myself the suppress my emotions to make the right choice and go NC.”
“I think there’s a huge schism for me between the mental and emotional. Getting off the – as you put it – metaphoric roller coaster was pretty easy, mentally, and the emotions have for the most part died, but now I feel nothing.”
Glad you found something about that article useful…
Perhaps we are similar in the sense that I’m a mind-over-emotion person too. Historically, I’ve always used logic (and over-strict moral training from my childhood) to “do the right thing” i.e. not overtly pursue my LO and slowly, from a safe distance, “wean myself off” the fantasy. However, “doing the right thing” never made my emotions go away completely.
I was so good at suppressing my emotions in fact that for years I didn’t even believe I had the INFJ personality type. (Who me? An INFJ? No way! I’m much too sensible and emotionally cool/detached to be an INFJ!!) 🙂
I’ve never felt nothing in relation to LO/LE. I’ve never been completely numb before/during/after infatuation. I think I just accumulated a giant reservoir of emotion, like a dam full of water. So I guess my “dubious recovery strategy” is separate the emotion from the ostensible cause of emotion. But that still leaves one with the unprocessed emotion.
I think if people find themselves struggling with apathy or listlessness or extreme fatigue, that’s actually a sign one is still very much on the rollercoaster, and just going through a “dip”. I had terrible lethargy at one point, and seeming indifference too, but it didn’t prove that I was out of the woods. The tiredness/jadedness was actually part of the cycle. 😉
Hi Sammy,
That’s funny. Being an INTP, I wasn’t motivated by morality regarding this LE. For me it was purely selfish (“I don’t like this; I’m not right; I want off this ride”). For me, doing the right thing is doing the right thing for me. That sounds horrid, but that’s the truth.
May I ask, how did you wean yourself off of the fantasy? Is it using Dr. L’s method of ruining fantasies? Or perhaps just be diverting attention when they pop up. Also, what will become of your “reservoir of emotion”? In another sense, could it be that you haven’t tackled the underlying issues as to what created the LE so that the emotions are still there? Are you at all nervous you might find a new conduit for those emotions?
@Invalid Username.
“May I ask, how did you wean yourself off of the fantasy? Is it using Dr. L’s method of ruining fantasies? Or perhaps just be diverting attention when they pop up. Also, what will become of your “reservoir of emotion”? In another sense, could it be that you haven’t tackled the underlying issues as to what created the LE so that the emotions are still there? Are you at all nervous you might find a new conduit for those emotions?”
Hm. It’s very hard to answer your questions, as I haven’t thought through some of the ideas consciously. I’m a person whose thinking is heavily guided by intuition, and my brain just tinkers away at this and that, rather than pursuing a global strategy.
Perhaps “reservoir of emotion” was the wrong term? Maybe “waterfall of emotion” would be better? I’ve found that when I’m in active limerence, it’s like I’m standing in the middle of a huge waterfall of emotion that keeps raining down. That’s how I know I’m in limerence. The experience is magical and beautiful. But the constancy of the waterfall starts to worry me after a time, because I want to get home safe and dry, and make supper. 😆
The first step to weaning myself of fantasy is to admit that I was fantasising in the first place. (Initially, I had no idea I had an LO, or was deeply immersed in an LE). So I had to (a) identify my LO to myself and (b) admit that I was using fantasies of him to self-regulate. My fantasies mostly involved him recognising me as a social equal. My fantasies revolved around social class, and wanting to belong to the same (perceived) social class as him, oddly enough. Finally, I had to ask myself (c) why do I need to resort to fantasy to self-regulate? Why am I not self-regulating in other ways?
While I don’t think every limerent experienced childhood neglect, I think I did use fantasy to self-regulate in childhood i.e. to cope with loneliness. Then, around puberty, someone came into my life who fit my limerent ideal. Then, a few years later, more teenage hormones kicked in, the fantasies became more and more rewarding in the form of more and more dopamine/euphoria hits, and I became trapped. But I was trapped willingly at first. I thought I could control the rollercoaster. (I was a bit too clever for my own good). 🤣
I believe limerence is this biological process and once the process is in motion, the process is in motion. If limerence is a rollercoaster, you can’t “get off” the ride until the ride ends – that’s been my personal experience. (I’m not saying that this is everyone’s experience. Nor am I saying it should be everyone’s experience. It seems to me that Dr. L’s work involves finding ways to interrupt the rollercoaster ride safely so maybe folk who wish to hop off can hop off?) 😉
I haven’t had much luck in diverting my thoughts. I spend more time playing with the volume button on my emotions, because emotions are what interest me the most. I went NC with my LO, simply because he had no interest in sustaining a friendship with me. However, the fantasy remained because the fantasy is part of me i.e. my anima/shadow, or whatever people want to call it.
The feeling of being “drugged”, for me, lasted a scary long time. (Over 25 years). I thought everyone lives out their entire lives in some enchanted drugged-out rosy haze. I think I just transferred some emotion to a variety of random guys. However, none of those guys became new LOs. They just fainted reminded me of my LO. So I was getting reduced hits of dopamine from guys who vaguely reminded me of “the special one”, if that makes sense. The rollercoaster was slowing down, but it hadn’t ground to a halt yet.
I seem to have a brain that’s very prone to daydreaming, and also super-sensitive to anything potentially addictive. For example, I’ve realised that a single cup of coffee will have me floating off into la-la land. Two cups of coffee and I’m in danger of losing all contact with reality.
Don’t get me wrong – I love being a dreamy, creative, introvert type who’s “always lost in his own little world”. But, as I get older, I appreciate it’s nice to keep two feet planted firmly on ground too. My high school English teacher, who was also my English lecturer in first-year uni, likened 18-year-old me to “an absent-minded professor”. (I got so lost in fantasies I would write the wrong name on my assignments, and make unbelievably simple spelling mistakes e.g. I would spell “everything” as “everythink”). 😆
Most of my limerent fantasies involve the past rather than the present or the future. My mind always drifts back to my school days, although they certainly weren’t my glory days. Quite the opposite. I’m trying to resolve something maybe. But what? Maybe, deep down, I didn’t believe I was “posh enough” to go to my “posh Christian school”. I was a working-class wannabe.
I think my whole life I’ve felt three very intense negative emotions. These three very intense negative emotions in order are: shame, guilt, and self-loathing. However, I’ve done a bit of research, and I’ve discovered that even people from a similar religious background probably don’t experience these three negative emotions as intensely as I did. So I can’t blame guilt/shame solely on religious conditioning…
I have a mother who very likely has BPD. For many years, I was her FP. (Favourite Person). I’ve come to the conclusion that maybe the negative emotions I experienced aren’t my negative emotions at all. The negative emotions I experienced are really my mother’s negative emotions. But because my mother can’t process emotion due to her BPD, I was forced to “carry” her negative emotions for her. I become the symbolic dumping-ground for everything she hated or couldn’t accept about herself.
So I spent a lot of my childhood feeling really, really bad, despite not having done anything bad. Nothing beyond the usual childhood mischief. But people with BPD can be very intense, and induce guilt in loved ones for just having everyday innocent fun. My mother was an incredibly angry woman, but she was unaware of her own anger issues. She literally didn’t know she was angry. Nonetheless, she took her anger out on everyone she met. 😢
For me, my LO I think served as a fantasy “buffer” between my mother and I. I dreamt of a “strong and benevolent” male who would basically protect me I guess from my mother’s rage. My father was a very kind man, but he was a weak man. He was “benevolent” but he wasn’t “strong”. I craved a man who was both benevolent and strong to provide a sense of emotional security.
I’m not nervous about finding a new conduit for my “emotion” because it seems that the emotional waterfall has at last stopped on its own. It’s a little sad that it’s all over. But it’s also a relief. Things have seemingly settled down of their own accord.
There was this one guy (not LO) who reminded me of my father, but a strong version of my father. Being around him made me feel high. I used to sneak out of cafes while he wasn’t looking to avoid talking to him because I felt so shy. But eventually we become really good friends. I formed the bond with him that I always wanted to form with my father. We are no longer in touch. But my last words to him were “… brother” (short for “Goodbye, brother”) and his last words to me were “See ya, brother”. So I feel I finally got the “recognition as social equal” I was craving from my original LO. 🙂
Hi Sammy,
Wow, thanks for the thorough explanation. It sounds like you’re in a really good place at the moment. It seems like you have unearthed the source of your underlying issues that lead to your LO/LE. Also, it sounds like you’re off the roller coaster or at least out of the waterfall.
Sorry, but this made me laugh: “I’ve realised that a single cup of coffee will have me floating off into la-la land. Two cups of coffee and I’m in danger of losing all contact with reality.”
“While I don’t think every limerent experienced childhood neglect…” No, but I do believe what Dr. L has mentioned in his book that the source is usually something we are compensating for internally and perhaps the deeper the roots, the stronger the LE. It sounds like you identified clearly the source and have come to terms with some of it (such as the “brother” moment that perhaps resolved the class issue). That’s great!
“Don’t get me wrong – I love being a dreamy, creative, introvert type who’s “always lost in his own little world”. But, as I get older, I appreciate it’s nice to keep two feet planted firmly on ground too.”
I really think we (most/all/some?) change as we get older. A lot of the personality-type tests I’ve been taken indicate that I’m quite balanced and I attribute that to age and experience. I think that’s a positive. 🙂
I have found today’s comments particularly interesting. I read Dr L’s blog yesterday, as usual, and felt reassured that really we are still looking at purposeful living in conjunction with no contact (or limited contact, if no contact is impossible) to get rid of limerence.
Although contact with my LO has been very limited for over the last two years, I made the decision at the beginning of this year to destroy every last vestige, the final treasured video clip and the automated contact details, and to finally stop sending festive greetings etc. That’s thirteen weeks of absolute no contact now and the New Year was a useful marker.
I feel quite disappointed, although I keep recommending no contact to others, that my own progress has not been swifter. I still wake up with that dreadful hopeless feeling and, until I come to and stop myself, I spend a short time ruminating about my LO. It amazes me how many memories of little interactions have stood the test of time over four years, to say nothing of the WhatsApp exchanges, which thankfully have all been deleted.
Last week, I had a significant birthday and, feeling rather grumpy, I tried hard to ignore it. Actually, I found that I have more true friends than I thought I had and I met them and went out for lunches over three days. It was very nice, and it was distracting, but of course nothing lasts for ever.
My challenge is this. I feel quite old, partly because of medical treatment issues that I am now gradually recovering from, and the concept of living purposefully is a struggle. The daily habit of reading the newspaper, walking for a couple of miles, taking a lunchtime nap and then doing quite a lot of slouching, is difficult to break.
I will make a note to take a look at Neurosparkle as the extracts looked intriguing.
The neuroscience perspective is good to be aware of. It’s quite sobering, however, to accept that ultimately we are on our own when it comes to resolving the affliction of limerence, it really is up to us to find something – anything – to alter our lives.
Frederico my friend
I hate to hear you in this mood. I am glad that you had friends to go out with and distract you from this. My wife’s family all came into town 3 weekends ago and it was a nice time. I hadn’t seen many of them in person for years. It was a nice time. But as you said all good things must end. And we have to be determined to do it for ourselves.
I have some good days when it comes to the purposeful living. Some days it is a struggle where you just want to stay inside your own mind and pretend the outside world doesn’t exist. I get that. This weekend I didn’t really do too much but lounge. I went to the grocery store after coming back from church. My wife and I had an argument (I guess you would call it that) and she told me I had a set back. A rather significant hurt to her. She was angry. Understandably. I got out of the situation to let her alone and went to the store. But by the time I got back and unloaded the groceries things were better as the day went on. We both got in the bed again that night together.
I hope that there are better days for you soon my friend. We are all here for you when you need someone to talk to. Some days I come here just to see people bs’ing. Sometimes it is just nice talk about anything. Of course in the right blog posts though so we don’t clutter Dr L’s comment sections lol
Hello Adam.
Thank you for your kind message, which is much appreciated. It was interesting to read your update and the purposeful living reference – sorry about your setback.
I have just spent a while re-reading the blog “How to get rid of limerence” from 2020 together with the 488 comments. It felt like going back to basics, which was helpful. Some of the comments were very powerful and it was at a time when Dr L was able to input as well.
Actually I think my attitude to my LE is shifting because my determination to remain without making contact is unwavering. There are some glitches in my thinking but I try to whack them on the head immediately.
I was touched by your message and I always enjoy your distinctive style.
I will indeed stay in touch through the coffeehouse blogs.
All best,
f
Hi Frederico & Adam,
I can identify and empathize with a lot of what you say in this post.
All my times of sleeping in on weekends, ‘catching up on sleep’. When really not feeling I had a hell of a lot to get out of bed for. Eros has departed my life. So, I use ruminating on LO and romantic scenarios with said person to distract me from the desert landscape of my life.
I catch myself in the middle of a romantic/erotic fantasy with LO and I stop myself and say, NO, this cannot lead anywhere. Too much daydreaming fantasy can only lead to giant frustration and resentment. The other way I go is payback scenario in my head with LO for outwitting me at every turn. Withering anger is also a rabbit hole I do not want to go down.
The other night I was lying in bed, and I felt a wave of despair /hopelessness take hold of me. Instead of certainty which is just dogma to me. I prefer ‘Not Knowing’. I’ll live in not knowing. And then for a while at least I can let go and let be.
I’m tired of all the noise in my head. The same old stuff that goes round and round and round.
Friends are so important, and I think Limerent people may be susceptible to isolation and cutting off contact. But reaching out to friends, getting out of our comfort zones and taking some risks and making contacts is life enhancing and purposeful living.
I’m not always very specific in my posts. I just post how I feel and want to show solidarity with others, because I can identify with others’ thoughts and experiences.
Hi Grego,
“I’m tired of all the noise in my head. The same old stuff that goes around and round and round.”
Same here. This happens, I believe, because of the uncertainty LO brought to our lives. Sometimes I blame LO for the breakup , others I blame myself, never have a clear picture in my mind of the real circumstances of what happened exactly. It’s not being able to clarify with LO, (Im not in contact with LO) to come to an “agreement “ with my thoughts and mind, so I can be at peace with whatever side I agree in my mind to blame, and get it over with. Was it LOs fault or mine? That is: it’s either one or the other, it cannot be both. This ambiguous thinking is a killer. The mind cannot accept two concepts on the same issue, therefore the constant torture… I have to decide it was his fault for making me behave negatively towards him. I have to convince myself that if he really wanted me we would have been together , but then I feel so sad. . . LO is blaming our break up on forces like destiny or God. It’s easy to blame someone else for our shortcomings or for our convenience. He doesn’t want to take the blame. Eh! I most of the time blame LO, and I feel good about that , then take control of my thoughts, just to fall back on the game of who’s fault was it, was it mine? Am I being fair? Lots of doubts again! And the movie plays again and again, never getting to a conclusion to put a stop to this nonsense that takes away my inner peace .
Best wishes and courage.
Hi Nisor
“That is: it’s either one or the other, it cannot be both. This ambiguous thinking is a killer. The mind cannot accept two concepts on the same issue, therefore the constant torture…”
From my perspective life is messy and we’re called to ambiguity. The mind having to accept two conflicting ideas at once is called paradox (I think?) It’s not easy of course, but may be preferable to black and white thinking; good, bad, right,wrong etc. Life is rarely black and white.
Who’s to blame LO or me? Well, both of us AND also neither of us. It simply the way things played out with all the causes and conditions that arose because of actions set in motion. Good luck with untangling all of that! I think that’s what’s called causality.
This is my very unsophisticated and possibly wrong explanation of Buddhism. THIS happened because THAT happened.
I don’t believe in a personal God, making plans for us. I ‘believe’ in causality. As I said earlier causes and conditions arising that go way, way back.
“And the movie plays again and again, never getting to a conclusion to put a stop to this nonsense that takes away my inner peace.”
I hope I can find inner peace sometime too. Even intervals of it. I think a spiritual person once said; ‘there is no way to peace, peace is the way.’ Amen
Grego
Your candid description struck a chord with me. I have read it several times and will read it again. Stopping ourselves and getting into the habit of saying “no” to intrusive thoughts will help to set us free, I think.
f
Thanks frederico for your response.
Breaking the routine even for a couple of days is really important. I hope things go well for you.
Cheers🥂🍺
“Withering anger is also a rabbit hole I do not want to go down.
The other night I was lying in bed, and I felt a wave of despair /hopelessness take hold of me.”
I still have these episodes now and then. Even in the midst of what I feel like is a positive change I’m trying to make happen, I still end up feeling like I’m going nowhere fast and that can be maddening. I don’t know if I’ll ever fully be out of the LE woods. However I think you are correct about limerent people being more susceptible to isolation and cutting off contact.
I go through the motions with this with my new Lady Friend. Finding there are times I need to just stay away from her for awhile, but I think that is because I am trying extra hard not to fall into another limerent episode.
Even though I am pretty sure that won’t happen. As much as I have appreciated the friendship she has brought me, and some overall positivity, she still doesn’t affect me in the way LO does.
I never once in my entire life, thought that anyone like LO, could make me feel the way about a person like she has. That Woman has simply cast a spell over me that is unmatched by any other Human Being on the Planet. Nothing could have prepared me for this.
I never once in my entire life, thought that anyone like LO, could make me feel the way about a person like she has. That Woman has simply cast a spell over me that is unmatched by any other Human Being on the Planet. Nothing could have prepared me for this.
I know exactly what you mean MJ and I was definitely in that state for a long time. Though I would tell my younger self now; Well, you know, she’s only a human being. How ever beautiful, attractive and glamourous she appears.
Limerence keeps us stuck in nostalgic past, pining for what might have been. But life keeps moving on, going forward. Be careful about being entranced by a person for the long haul.
That’s why I’m slightly leery of the mantra of No Contact, I’m reading in a lot of posts. Whilst it may well be the right strategy in the majority of cases. I had no contact thrust upon me because ‘my’ LO seemed to fall off the face of the earth. She simply disappeared. That seemed to be part of her mystique. Though I know she’s still alive, probably doing pretty well. My point is, would I see her if given the opportunity? I’d say definitely. I think for me it would be cowardice not to. I certainly would not be expecting anything. I don’t think we’d end up in bed together (LOL).
Though also, I have no complaints with the way it all went. It was the universe unfolding as it should. If she wasn’t in my life, maybe she wasn’t meant to be.
“As much as I have appreciated the friendship she has brought me, and some overall positivity, she still doesn’t affect me in the way LO does.”
Is the intensity of feeling we have for LO’s a good thing? We put them on a pedestal as I mentioned before. Yet nothing comes of it. Noone else can compare! This is the really downside of limerence.
@Grego,
“Is the intensity of feeling we have for LO’s a good thing? We put them on a pedestal as I mentioned before. Yet nothing comes of it. Noone else can compare! This is the really downside of limerence.”
You could not be more correct. What you just wrote has probably been repeated to me by so many others in this forum, in one way or another, over the last almost 2 years. I get that pedastaling and adoration of another person is not healthy. Yet I will still find myself in rumination and a sense of loss and sadness because of what never was. I feel like had I just got to a friendship level with LO, I would see some of her faults and misgivings, which would help normalize things. I get sad because “nothing” is what it’s always really been about. A Summer dream, a song, a hearbreak, a loss, a longing, a desire.. Of someone I may not even like or want to be around, but none of that matters whenever I happen to see her. I see God’s masterpiece and with her there is nothing else but the perfection that she is.. Listen to me. I sound like I’m possessed.
I think I do a decent job of staying in check. Yet I catch myself back in LO ruminating because new Lady Friend will get in a mood, ignore me sometimes, not engage or leave without saying goodbye. I know better than to think I should expect any more, considering we are only friends. Yet sometimes I see myself putting a ring on her finger, dancing with her at our wedding reception and buying major appliances together for our soon to be built house. Wtf?? I’m not limerent for this Woman. I shouldn’t be thinking this way, should I? She’s only human. She’s only being human. This is what I wanted with LO. God help this miserable wreck of a person I am, to expect so much from people.
I think I just have a very vivid imagination and it can be a terrible thing.
Hi MJ,
And may God help us MJ!!! No one can save us from these fantasies we live in. Surely feels like a spell has been casted on us all.
Stay strong and healthy, no ruminating allowed today, ha!
@frederico.
“The neuroscience perspective is good to be aware of. It’s quite sobering, however, to accept that ultimately we are on our own when it comes to resolving the affliction of limerence, it really is up to us to find something – anything – to alter our lives.”
You write beautifully. 🙂
I agree with you that neuroscience perspective is helpful because at the very least it confirms that (a) the limerent person isn’t crazy and (b) the limerent person isn’t inherently wicked. (Just in case anyone was worried they’re either crazy or inherently wicked. Self-blame does nothing to lessen the sway of limerence). 😉
The neuroscience perspective is also helpful because it gives us grounds not to villainise the LO, although devaluation may be an effective means of emotional detachment for some people. (Personally, I’ve never liked devaluation).
For example, if one is limerent, then one is going to find certain stimuli very exciting and certain stimuli very depressing. (Signs of hope/uncertainty from LO). However, what’s going on in LO’s brain may be different to what’s going on in limerent’s brain, and the limerent (while deep in the throes of passion) almost always assumes it’s a shared dance when in fact it may be a solo dance, or only a partially shared dance. (I.e. one party quits the intoxicating interaction before the other). The LO may not feel excited/depressed in response to the same stimuli as the limerent, or pull out of the “courtship” too soon, triggering a complex grief response in the limerent. (You’ve just lost the only “prize” worth winning). 🤔
I love the rollercoaster metaphor for limerence because limerence does very much feel like a ride to me – the ride of a lifetime!! Like a rollercoaster, limerence has a beginning, a middle, and an end. Like a rollercoaster, patrons aren’t allowed off the ride while the ride is in motion – for their own protection (or the protection of the future of one’s genes). Finally, like a rollercoaster, patrons may find the experience exhilarating, but also run the risk of negative side-effects, such as throwing up one’s lunch due to dizziness. 😆
All limerents today live in the modern world. However, the limerence machinery in our brains didn’t evolve to serve us in the modern world. Limerence machinery evolved in caveman times to ensure we stay fixated on a potential mate and hence increase the odds of passing on our genes with that particular mate.
This element of fixation might sound creepy to some people who have never experienced it and can’t understand it, but I imagine that a lot of limerent behaviour throughout history (when successful) results in the limerent party being an unusually devoted mate to their LO – at least for the first couple of years.
In other words, Frederico, you’re experiencing your caveman genes/human evolutionary heritage turned up to full blast while living in the modern world. This is how early humans experienced romantic love i.e. very intensely, due to the shortness of life and the relative danger of the world they inhabited. 😉
Stay well, my brother. 🙂
Sammy
Thank you. Interesting. I agree that self-blame does not help.
The devaluation of an LO is an old chestnut and I was never really comfortable with it either. That’s because my LO was on a pedestal and it did not feel right to see him in a negative light. I even defended him against others.
You mentioned the roller-coaster ride, a great metaphor, and I reckon that I’m now on one of the final loops. I can definitely see some negative qualities in my LO, although some of them are quite endearing. I stick to the view that no one is really to blame and we are both equally responsible.
I like the reminder about the limerence machinery in our brains. If I was clever enough, I would study the different parts of the brain and the conflicting drivers.
You mention fixation which also sort of reminds me of stalking. That thought has been part of my process for stopping sending any more messages etc. If they are no longer wanted or appreciated, hard as that may be to swallow, sending them does not seem like a very good idea at all.
There have been some great descriptions of limerence here over the past few days.
All best,
f
@frederico.
“There have been some great descriptions of limerence here over the past few days.”
I know, right? So much talent in one cute little corner of the Internet! 😁
Even though other posters sometimes get on my nerves, (too many impertinent questions perhaps?), I’ve found that participating in LwL has really helped me start to feel like my old self again. I mean, I’ve been here for a few years, but I noticed marked improvement in my general feeling of well-being in the last couple of months.
I think what’s happened is that other posters have slowly chipped away at the many personae I use to protect myself from unwanted scrutiny and from having to talk about my feelings to an excessive degree. When those personae have been stripped away, or exposed as flimsy personae, what’s left is someone very close to the real me.
So rebirth has slowly come about for me partly because various people on here have been very nice to me and didn’t judge me too harshly. I won’t name names because I can’t remember everybody I’d need to thank, and don’t wish to offend through conspicuous omission. Suffice it to say, healing indeed can be a social process. 🙂
“You mention fixation which also sort of reminds me of stalking. That thought has been part of my process for stopping sending any more messages etc. If they are no longer wanted or appreciated, hard as that may be to swallow, sending them does not seem like a very good idea at all.”
Ah, Frederico, I feel for you! 😲🙄😢
Yes, fixation is a bit of an uncomfortable notion for most people. But I think early humans evolved to “fixate” on romantic partners, at least during the honeymoon phase of relationships. (Hopefully, the feeling of total fascination was always reciprocated, so as not to become a problem for the happy lovers). 🙄😇
When in limerence, your brain absolutely does not want to let go of the person you think you love, and maybe do love. However, “letting go” is the healthiest thing for limerent and LO if the LO no longer wants the association.
Letting go is super-duper painful – trust me, I know. You can’t always force yourself to let go. Sometimes, it feels like you must release that person a million times into the ether before the mind finally “gets it” and obey the “release directive” from the executive brain.
But I don’t see letting go entirely in terms of loss, although it is loss, arguably the greatest loss anyone can go through. I see letting go as the ultimate and final act of love one can show somebody who can’t be in one’s life for whatever reason/s. Even in letting that person go, you are loving them, and maybe loving them more sincerely than you did when you were in frequent contact with them. 🤔😉
Doing what’s best for the other person is never not real love. 😉
„ But I don’t see letting go entirely in terms of loss, although it is loss, arguably the greatest loss anyone can go through. I see letting go as the ultimate and final act of love one can show somebody who can’t be in one’s life for whatever reason/s. Even in letting that person go, you are loving them, and maybe loving them more sincerely than you did when you were in frequent contact with them. 🤔😉“
Doing what’s best for the other person is never not real love. 😉“
I like that since it’s what I‘m telling myself over and over.
But I’m actually not quite sure what is best for LO! I think he enjoys our friendship/mutual limerence/whatever with much less pain and struggle than me and would be sad to lose it.
There must be also a bit of consideration of what is best for me, and I‘m not quite sure about that, too.
At the moment I‘m writing so much (sorry, Sammy) because I avoid reading a text he sent me, telling me he‘s back in town and asking how I am.
Now, why do I not want to read it?
I‘m also not keen on seeing him. Maybe because I‘m feeling a bit low and ugly and only want to show him my best self. Or because I‘m tired of the whole circus and actually it felt better for me when he was away.
Not sure about it! No energy to find out!😆
@Mila.
Limerence is very, very tricky…
It’s a lot easier to tell oneself to “let go” if the LO has already implicitly rejected one. However, implicit rejection from LO doesn’t make the situation any less stressful in neurochemical terms. All implicit rejection does is make it easier to spin some story to oneself about the nobility of sacrificing oneself for another’s happiness. 😁
I guess it’s not really sacrifice if the LO more or less says, “No thanks” or “And who are you again?”. 🙄🤣 Maybe it’s just a last-ditch attempt to save face on the part of the limerent, who is trying not to feel humiliated by the implicit rejection after building up hopes for so long? But if limerence is about us, I don’t see why the creative ways we respond to rejection can’t be about us also. 😉
I hear you too that doing what’s best for the other person can be far-from-clear and very context-dependent. For example, if two people do have feelings for each other and are both in unhappy relationships, then the story about “what’s best” might involve pursuing bliss together. So, hm, yes, emotion can be an unreliable guide to what’s right. (What’s right emotionally isn’t what’s right-right). One can almost write any pleasing tale to fit the desired outcome.
I guess what I’m trying to say is it’s easy to take the moral high road when the option of being “immoral” has already been removed from the table by (a) an increasingly indifferent LO or (b) by the angry, jealous, increasingly territorial spouse of an LO. But it’s not true nobility if “the noble party” isn’t sacrificing anything real.
I think, in romantic situations, I would always prefer to jump off the cliff voluntarily than to be pushed off the cliff by a mob of angry villagers waving pitchforks. 🤣 I like to control the narrative even if the narrative is I’m the game’s loser – just one of my little quirks. 😇
It’s fascinating you don’t want to interact with your LO sometimes even when the opportunity arises. I wonder if some kind of emotional ambivalence is built into limerence? (And if people regret afterwards all the opportunities to connect they turned down out of fear/shyness?) So interesting from a psychological point of view…
“At the moment I‘m writing so much (sorry, Sammy) …”
It’s okay. Always a pleasure to touch base with LwL regulars. 🙂
(At Sammy)
**Standing ovation and applause**
@Limerent nurse.
Thank you.
**blush**
Must have been on a roll last night while talking to Frederico and Mila. Also, must have been in a rather good mood. I am finding it easier to collect my thoughts these days. 😇
Hi frederico,
You said, “The daily habit of reading the newspaper, walking for a couple of miles, taking a lunchtime nap and then doing quite a lot of slouching, is difficult to break.”
Do you think it would be useful to find a hobby that is something you could share with others in your community? Maybe even by forcing yourself at the beginning, you would help begin building bonds and habits outside of your LO. Just an idea.
To be fair, although the details are different, I think a lot of people struggle with monotony of existence. The words may be different and it may have nothing in connection with limerence, but many of us struggle with the monotony of the day-to-day routine that leaves one feeling life is meaningless. … or maybe that’s just me, LOL.
Invalid Username,
“To be fair, although the details are different, I think a lot of people struggle with monotony of existence. The words may be different and it may have nothing in connection with limerence, but many of us struggle with the monotony of the day-to-day routine that leaves one feeling life is meaningless. … or maybe that’s just me, LOL.”
You’re not alone on this. I started to see and sense “monotony of existence” when I was 13. I’ve migrated to an opposite continent/culture, traveled around, achieved tiny tangible and intangible success here and there, lived through big and small “LEs”, survived speakable and unspeakable traumas and losses… But I simply could not “get away’” from the monotony of daily routine.
Life has no universal meanings but possible individualistic meanings that are produced/created (via concrete activities) or imagined/fantasized (colorful activities in mind) by each individual from moments to moments, day to day. Those men-made meanings rarely sustain, but keep changing and evolving even at hourly, daily or weekly basis, seemingly depending on one’s mood and physical health.
I guess that I’m struggling to “fabricate” some meanings out of what I need to do, plan to do, and fancy to do…, in which being imaginative is more helpful or enliven than being realistic. It’s perhaps just me…
Hi Snowphoenix,
I can identify with a lot of what you said and experienced. I remember a bus driver telling me he pulled up to the bar every night and the bartender had his beer waiting for him. That was a moment I thought to myself, “I never want that”. I set out to explore the world, but after a time ended up settling down and I think some of that being tied down has resulted in my current state. I think that’s why I gravitate to computer games where I can explore and adventure since I cannot in the real world.
You’re right, I think. So, if meaning is an internal, self-created construct, is it meaningless beyond the self?
I’m not sure I agree with this sentiment, though: “Those men-made meanings rarely sustain, but keep changing and evolving even at hourly, daily or weekly basis, seemingly depending on one’s mood and physical health. ” Personally, my view of “meaning” and “meaningful” are more akin to “mission statements” that are underpinned by one’s values and are not as malleable as to change so easily. For example, if I have an underlying value of “helping others is intrinsically nurturing and beneficial to my sense of well being and worth,” that is unlikely to change hour-by-hour or based on my mood. Maybe we differ in how we view what “meaning” is. 🙂
I should say that meanings CAN change hourly… but not necessary. You’re right that some meanings based on our brought values, which fulfilled in the past could sustain for a long time…
It could be meaningless beyond Self… which is made of Unconscious that includes vast “unknown” of forgotten by our conscious mind.
My escape is more of books, some movies, and scrabbling… No computer games at all.
‘…which is made of Unconscious that includes vast “unknown” of forgotten by our conscious mind.’
The REAL dark web. LOL 😉 I’m leaning to believe that horrid place of the unconscious is the source of my susceptibility to my LE. Ugh.
Thanks for clarifying.
“The REAL dark web. LOL 😉 I’m leaning to believe that horrid place of the unconscious is the source of my susceptibility to my LE. Ugh.”
That’s the place on which I’ve been trying to shred some light (via Jung’s individuation), by being exposed to possible triggers here online and in reality. Without knowing root(s) of my lifetime susceptibility to LE, I am certain will slip into it again.
Today I incidentally heard (via a podcast) something which made my mind pause and question: “We (our minds) are the tool of observation as well as the subject of observation. It is akin to quantum physics — the mere observation changes the subject. If unobserved, the subject behaves one way, and as soon as it’s under observation it behaves differently. Unaware we have one Persona, and as soon as we know someone is watching us, we change our Persona.”
If this theory is true, then by keenly watching our LE mentality and behaviors, we could change them, could we?
Recently I was so closely observing and recording here my mental (re)actions after that new Glimmer struck me. Then, within a month, my Unconscious assisted me in my dream to have killed that Glimmer, which in the past I would automatically grasp dearly and let myself go into a giddy frenzy.
I think you may be onto something, but it seems like that is, in simple terms, being self-aware.
“If this theory is true, then by keenly watching our LE mentality and behaviors, we could change them, could we?”
One problem may be that people under the influence of a LE may not be able to observe clearly (unbiased, as it were, for lack of a better term). Also, that brings us to the nub of this entire blog post: observing and analyzing are distinctly logical thought processes, but what happens when they come upon emotion? For someone like me who is very logic-driven and has a tendency to suppress emotions, that might be easy, but what about those who live in their emotive world? Lastly, I wonder how much of observation and personas change over time after being observed. In other words, would the act of observing become commonplace so that the act no longer changes the persona in a significant way as comfort sets in?
Still, I agree that self-awareness/observation is a great tool that surely spurred me from spiraling down the LE chasm. I believe you should have a kind of life tension: who am I and who do I want to be and if there is a gap between those two, what constructive actions do I need to take to narrow that gap?
Invalid Username,
“One problem may be that people under the influence of a LE may not be able to observe clearly (unbiased, as it were, for lack of a better term). “
Very true. That’s why they need to read more of DrL’s blogs, and force them to THINK more, not merely FEEL. Emotions come and go, flash in and out, thousands of time hourly or minutely; one can’t rely on emotions to “see” their realistic world or their specific LE.
“Also, that brings us to the nub of this entire blog post: observing and analyzing are distinctly logical thought processes, but what happens when they come upon emotion? “
Aren’t we talking about using logical mind to observe and analyze our emotions, particularly unwanted LE emotions? From my own experiences, once I put thinking on my emotions, they became weaker, even positive ones, like that priceless glimmer.
“For someone like me who is very logic-driven and has a tendency to suppress emotions, that might be easy, but what about those who live in their emotive world? “
While growing up, I was forced to suppress all sorts of emotions, but to learn and use logic; I wanted to liberate the trapped emotions deeply submerged in my Unconscious…. I see your point about those who are dominated by their emotions, particularly driven helplessly in LE. I hope by reading through various blogs here, they could strengthen their logic mind in more of self observing and analyzing. No God out there or here could do the work for any of us.
“Lastly, I wonder how much of observation and personas change over time after being observed. “
I would assume until the time when one feels in a certain amount of control of their intrusive thoughts or turbulent emotions, which would always come and go. By then hopefully one would be able to watch and live with them in an equilibrium.
“In other words, would the act of observing become commonplace so that the act no longer changes the persona in a significant way as comfort sets in?”
In LwL, the ultimate goal is to reduce/remove/harmoniously live with LE — one primary arena among one’s vast life domains, which I assume is reachable, although I’m not totally there yet. I do not fear of the act of observing would “become commonplace”, but worry it might reduce intensity of my valued, cherished emotions. A logical mind sometimes could be very cruel.
“I believe you should have a kind of life tension: who am I and who do I want to be and if there is a gap between those two, what constructive actions do I need to take to narrow that gap?”
Now, I’m going to be nitpick here: how do you define “who am I”? Is our identify defined by our careers? kinship to family? relationship to others? inner characteristics? memories? Is “human being” fixed or fluid, constantly or gradually changing and evolving?
Without clearly answering these questions, I can’t see any gap between “who I am” and “who I want to be”… I can tell what I did, wish to do, or plan to do… but do my collective actions and their consequences from birth up to now define who I was, I am, or I will be? I saw your list of things you’ve been listlessly doing after NC, how do you answer “Who am I?”
What camp you’re in? — “I think, therefore I am.”❓ or “I feel, therefore, I am”❓
I said: “Also, that brings us to the nub of this entire blog post: observing and analyzing are distinctly logical thought processes, but what happens when they come upon emotion? “ to which you replied:
“Aren’t we talking about using logical mind to observe and analyze our emotions, particularly unwanted LE emotions?”
What I meant is that for some, even the analyzing of one’s emotions might do little to change them. Or perhaps their emotions are so strong, as we said, they use mental gymnastics to change their analysis to fit the desired narrative.
“I wanted to liberate the trapped emotions deeply submerged in my Unconscious”
Sounds like a horror movie to me. 😄
‘Now, I’m going to be nitpick here: how do you define “who am I”?’
I think it’s open to interpretation, depending on the individual, but I mean a general current snapshot of the state of one’s existence (in various areas).
How I would answer “who am I?” would probably function at multiple levels. There is the physical self, in which I have been dissatisfied with my corporeal self (things such as physique, posture, eating habits, etc.), my habitual self (daily 9-5 grind of an unimportant, uninspired existence), etc. I could go on because there are so many areas I need to improve on. So for those things, I can imagine an image of who I want to be and take steps to achieve that (some of which I outlined in my living a more purposeful life). I do believe the self (“Who am I?”) is an interconnected web of different channels that often influence each other.
‘Without clearly answering these questions, I can’t see any gap between “who I am” and “who I want to be”’
That’s great! I, on the other hand, am always thinking I can do better. 🙁
To me, though, this statement is a little like what I meant: “the ultimate goal is to reduce/remove/harmoniously live with LE — one primary arena among one’s vast life domains, which I assume is reachable, although I’m not totally there yet”. To me, in this statement, the “who am I?” would be the one still impacted by limerence on some level and the “who do I want to be?” would be your idea of “there” in “I’m not totally there yet”. That’s all I really meant by having that tension of, I suppose, aspirations.
Sorry, I might not be articulating myself very well.
Yes, I am very much a “cogito, ergo sum” kind of guy.
“What I meant is that for some, even the analyzing of one’s emotions might do little to change them. Or perhaps their emotions are so strong, as we said, they use mental gymnastics to change their analysis to fit the desired narrative.”
I could see that happen in this culture, probably a result of strong Romanticism, not in my COO; perhaps a bit more nowadays after the globalization.
“I wanted to liberate the trapped emotions deeply submerged in my Unconscious”
Sounds like a horror movie to me. 😄”
Do you think there are only shallows/dark stuff in Unconscious? Besides fears, forgotten traumas or deep unhealed wounds, what about repressed loving feelings? Tender thoughts, forbidden biological instincts, fermented tears, or a hidden creative reservoir? Without letting them out, how could one ever reduce/remove their unconscious negative impact and increase/maximize positive inner resource in one’s outer life?
“I think it’s open to interpretation, depending on the individual, but I mean a general current snapshot of the state of one’s existence (in various areas).”
A lot of stuff comprised “personal me” are superficial and would “change” if one travels to another culture or “planet”. With a language barrier, the traveler may wonder how s/he is going to introduce his identity to those local, cultural “aliens”.
I like this video:
https://youtu.be/oocunV4JX4w?si=wV37ip8Gy0PFhFAE —“ Who Am I”.
Still, stuff talked in the video changes and evolves over time particularly when one migrates to another culture and needs to adopt and continue growing.
“I do believe the self (“Who am I?”) is an interconnected web of different channels that often influence each other.”
Without knowing some of one’s own Unconscious stuff, one would only know a tip of iceberg about one’s Self. And that much larger part of Unconscious more than often illogically drives one’s logical mind in both positive and negative ways; the latter is often puzzling and uncontrollable detrimental; limerence is one of phenomena.
“That’s great! I, on the other hand, am always thinking I can do better. 🙁”
Yes everyone can do “better” (however “good” is defined), as long as it’s “better” than one’s previous states. It takes a lot of wills and self-disciplines.
“To me, in this statement, the “who am I?” would be the one still impacted by limerence on some level and the “who do I want to be?” would be your idea of “there” in “I’m not totally there yet”. That’s all I really meant by having that tension of, I suppose, aspirations.”
I’m at the end of this long LE with 90% of equilibrium, I do NOT want to get rid of ALL of it while I’m changing it from an unrequited LE to an unrequited Philip. After having rambled (a form of writing therapy again to a larger audience) here over 8 months, I’ve learned and understood so much about my own LE by reading DrL’s feathered articles and communicating with other limerents ghosts. The 10% of uncertainty needs to be handled after the final, forced separation with LO in May. I don’t know yet what/how I’m going to feel. I hope I’ll reach this unknown “there” afterwards…
“Yes, I am very much a “cogito, ergo sum” kind of guy.”
With Cogito, one has a strong, logical mind sorts out and understands matters, but Sentio fuels the machine and smoothes its run. Without the former, one could end up in a mad house; without the latter, one could do everything “right” but “listlessly”….
I am in my own camp — Cogito ac Sentio, ergo sum.
Typo: “I’m trying to change it from an unrequited LE to an unrequited Philia-love.”
I do not have regrets of my only true LE as whole, only some detailed behaviors on my part. It helped shred so much light on my entire, previously “lost” Self…
“Without letting them out, how could one ever reduce/remove their unconscious negative impact and increase/maximize positive inner resource in one’s outer life?”
I’m fine with taking that risk. One never knows the balance of negative vs. positive, but I imagine that if they are subconscious and repressed, they are so for a reason and likely to be negative. I guess you could believe that if you do not uncover the subconscious one doesn’t really know/realize one’s self. For me, I have no desire to go on that archaeological dig.
‘A lot of stuff comprised “personal me” are superficial and would “change” if one travels to another culture or “planet”. With a language barrier, the traveler may wonder how s/he is going to introduce his identity to those local, cultural “aliens”.’
I do think that a lot of things perceived to be superficial may not be so, namely because I feel that a lot of the elements that comprise a human being to be a complex web, rather than a distilled core that is neither influenced or malleable. Take, for example, the physical form. If one has something about their physical being that they feel ashamed about, that could impact their self-esteem, which could impact their interpersonal relationships, which could then impact other areas of their life, and so on. At least, that’s how I view the self.
I watched the video and I don’t entirely agree with what is said, but then again, it’s probably beyond me. Probably my views are simplistic.
“Without knowing some of one’s own Unconscious stuff, one would only know a tip of iceberg about one’s Self.”
I’m probably wrong, but I don’t think that matters. In your limerence example, for instance, I know what triggered my LE for me, and I know what attracts me (upon self reflection). What I don’t know is why I am dismissive avoidant. I don’t want to know. Knowing and “fixing” myself in that area is not something I want. I corrected my LE and now I feel it’s unlikely I will ever be LE again (because I’m aware of that). My point being, I don’t think you necessarily need to know the unconscious underlying reasons for something in order to successfully view the self.
I guess it leads into a bigger question of do you actually think one’s self is knowable? Isn’t that knowledge still susceptible to perception and is it not without a skewed view? Even uncovering the layers of the subconscious is surely an act that involves perception rather than “reality” (or alternatively, reality is the perception).
Sorry, that was stream of consciousness there. LOL Sometimes typing it out helps me think things through.
“…I do NOT want to get rid of ALL of it …”
I admit, I have a difficult time understanding this concept. I know Dr. L also talked about it in his book that limerence is not necessarily a wholly bad thing, but for me it was unwelcome and I never want it in my life again.
“With Cogito, one has a strong, logical mind sorts out and understands matters, but Sentio fuels the machine and smoothes its run . . . I am in my own camp — Cogito ac Sentio, ergo sum.”
That’s great! I wondered momentarily how I could obtain that, and I think the answer is delving into the murky unconscious and then I thought, listless it is for me! Cogito, cogito, cogito all the way! 😉 Just as it’s difficult for me to understand NOT rebuking limerence, it might be difficult for you to understand why someone like me would run away from sentio.
@Invalid Username,
“I’m fine with taking that risk. One never knows the balance of negative vs. positive, but I imagine that if they are subconscious and repressed, they are so for a reason and likely to be negative.”
Under what circumstances, you could assume “subconscious and repressed” are likely “negative”? What’s your definition of “negative” vs. positive? If you grew up in one of dictatorship nations, eg the old Soviet Union, China and North Korea, guess what could be repressed and oppressed in ordinary people’s subconscious? Do they have your entitled rights to vote, freedom of speech, of thought, and of creativity? How many people have died for a lot of things majority of Westerners have taken for granted?
“I guess you could believe that if you do not uncover the subconscious one doesn’t really know/realize one’s self. For me, I have no desire to go on that archaeological dig.”
Then you’d never know whether there is hidden stuff in the Unconscious that could lift up your spirit regularly and actualiza or maximize your potentiality or creativity.
‘Take, for example, the physical form. If one has something about their physical being that they feel ashamed about, that could impact their self-esteem, which could impact their interpersonal relationships, which could then impact other areas of their life, and so on. At least, that’s how I view the self.”
Physical form, subjective to viewers’ eyes, is unable to represent one’s inner self; however, many people around the world are paying more attention to this external form than a representation of one’s inner self, eg. aliveness or listlessness, which could also impact many more areas of their life. Majority of people are naturally gravitated towards joyful, or passionate, or inspiring human spirit.
“Without knowing some of one’s own Unconscious stuff, one would only know a tip of iceberg about one’s Self.”
I’m probably wrong, but I don’t think that matters.”
“Know thy self” matters tremendously to me. Ignoring one’s Self possibly leads to more future mistakes (repeating old ones) or “misfortunes” (ignorance makes one to blindly believe in Fortune) in many arenas of his or her life. I’ve come to realize this more and more!
“In your limerence example, for instance, I know what triggered my LE for me, and I know what attracts me (upon self reflection)”
But limerence is only one aspect of one’s life, not all.
“What I don’t know is why I am dismissive avoidant. “
Just approved my above point. Perhaps more self-reflection or psychotherapy could help you to know?
“I don’t want to know. Knowing and “fixing” myself in that area is not something I want. “
Then you’ll probably have to take all possible consequences that dismissive avoidance might continue bringing to your life.
I corrected my LE and now I feel it’s unlikely I will ever be LE again (because I’m aware of that). “
It will take some time to find out whether your current feeling is correct, as time goes by.
“My point being, I don’t think you necessarily need to know the unconscious underlying reasons for something in order to successfully view the self.”
It’s not about viewing Self for its own sake, but understand why something incomprehensible troubles one’s routine life, such as phobia, irrational anxiety/panic attacks, etc. i get panic attack in a big empty space in public in daylight, such as classroom, conference hall, empty beach… still doesn’t know why.
“I guess it leads into a bigger question of do you actually think one’s self is knowable? “
Not entirely, but pieces and parts. If a child’s terrifying traumas are forgotten, at least s/he could learn and trace the residual, active impacts of those cptsd, eg mysterious phobias.
“Isn’t that knowledge still susceptible to perception and is it not without a skewed view? “
it is indeed perception that affects one’s understanding of Self in connection to his/her surroundings. All views are skewed through one’s perception; however, a parental beating causes the same corporeal pains or traumatic suffering whether one names it a tough “love” or a necessary disciplinary act.
“Even uncovering the layers of the subconscious is surely an act that involves perception rather than “reality” (or alternatively, reality is the perception).”
Reality is the perception! So learning about one’s Self is to uncover one’s perceptions that have (sub)consciously impacted one’s past life/experiences/mistakes/sufferings… so as to avoid a future repetition of the similar mistakes or sufferings.
Sorry, that was stream of consciousness there. LOL Sometimes typing it out helps me think things through.”
No need to apologize here. I’m glad that your stream of consciousness has flown spontaneously….
“…I do NOT want to get rid of ALL of it.”
I admit, I have a difficult time understanding this concept. “
I’m a person who tends to look at two sides of the same coin; from the past I try to scavenger its bright sides; for the future I try to remember its dark shadow. In hindsight, I’ve benefited 75% from my only “authentic” LE, and suffered 25% that included typical LE symptoms, Hashimoto thyroiditis and then thyroid lymphoma. Still, I would not trade it for anything else, even if time could go backward. I know better now hot to manage LE’s symptoms.
“I know Dr. L also talked about it in his book that limerence is not necessarily a wholly bad thing, but for me it was unwelcome and I never want it in my life again.”
Sorry your LE experience has not brought you any benefit. I’ll avoid slip into LE again but still welcome and appreciate that glimmer however long it will last.
“That’s great! I wondered momentarily how I could obtain that…”
I’m still learning hard how to increase the volume of my Sentio bucket which was severely deprived during my formative years by cultural oppression and personal suppression. I need to dig out that “tear reservoir” possibly hidden inside my Unconscious.
“I think the answer is delving into the murky unconscious and then I thought, listless it is for me! Cogito, cogito, cogito all the way! “
I’ve quit my first engineering training — great skills in Cogito for one’s mind, but those 👷♀️ 👩💻 🤓… I have also stayed away from them ever since I migrated to the West. I’d try to shower more in the “waterfall of tears” under a bright sunlight
“Just as it’s difficult for me to understand NOT rebuking limerence, it might be difficult for you to understand why someone like me would run away from sentio.”
I’m not bothered by my ignorance or puzzlement in many things in the world, which is just natural and inevitable… ☺️
Frederico hi,
HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU, with health and peace of mind.
“ … doing quite a lot of slouching.”
Yes, that’s what most people do when the working years are over! One loses the discipline of getting up for a purpose or a reason. I’m in the same boat as you. It’s good not to put up with traffic or the hassle of getting to work and the tiredness at the end of the day; looking avidly for weekends to come so one can rest, or the holidays for some respite from work. I miss those days now! As one gets older there’s is less and less one can do. Age tiredness start to show, one becomes slower and not to keen to connect, giving plenty of free time to fantasize about LO… No good! I had a group of friends we used to meet weekly, but Covid came and somehow we got lazy to connect the same way. I got house work to do, but I get out for walks, get to the stores and talk to the salespeople and get to share a conversation with them. I also have an SO who is quite active for his old age, every morning he says: what do yo want to do today, or where do you want to go today? He keeps me on my toes! I also congregate at church and we have good fellowship, and we go on trips often. I enjoy going to the malls also twice a week for lunch. Just trying to fill my day so I don’t have enough time to ruminate about LO. You got to force yourself to be out of the house as much as possible. I’m too old for hobbies, or adventures . Can you join a club, like Rotary’s club or any kind of club where you can connect with people? There must be some kind of activities for retired people where you live. Near my home there is a club for retired people and they gather together, have coffee and lunch, watch a game together or play some table games, it’s for men only. They don’t have one for women. But the city have different activities for old folks like us. My SO doesn’t want to join in any club. He keeps busy with different business etc from home.
I wish you the best, and get out of the house. Hugs.
Thank you for your empathetic post, Nisor. Your thoughts are carefully noted.
f
Hi IU, thank you for your helpful reply. You are right, of course, and I should somehow be more dynamic and do exactly what you are saying.
The strange thing to me is that, when I was working in a demanding job, I longed for the peace and quiet of retirement. Symbolically, I removed my watch. No more meetings, no more stress. It was fine for quite a while. Later on an irresistible LO arrived along with the inevitable challenges of later life.
I can very much empathise with your posts.
f
Hi Frederico,
I think that’s common. Even though I’m not retired, I often think, “I would love to do XYZ if only I had time,” and when I have time, I don’t do them. I’m trying to break free of that 9-5 pattern of go to work, come home, do nothing productive and go to sleep, day after day. I think those who are creative also have that problem: inspired when mired in work and uninspired when unfettered. I think that’s just life, regardless of LEs, it’s a tough rut to climb out of.
In those cases, I think setting out concrete plans of action is a good start. Having goals that are verifiable also helps. For example, compare, “I will be more outgoing,” to “I will go to a social club and talk to at least 3 different people.” Bad example, but you get my point, I’m sure.
Hello all. Very interesting and insightful article, Dr. L.
After going almost 2 months NC, was feeling quite good emotions wise, having a good grip on things. At that point, I was interested to see how things would play out when there is contact. Sure enough, contact came (saw LO multiple times), and brought with it feelings of despair. Had a dream recently about LO and woke up feeling super crappy.
From my assessment, both of us are looking towards each other for validation and mood regulation. So, need to stop seeking LO in order to break from this cycle of highs and lows.
In addition, am also working on purposeful living, and trying to recognise my triggers, so that I avoid falling into the traps. I was just thinking how this LE has affected my quality of life for multiple years, and I was like wow, what the heck! Told myself that I really needed to take control of my mind.
This seems to be a long effort, some days are harder than others, but need to keep going. Thanks for listening.
The neuroscience part of it is indeed interesting. But even when subconscious spoken words or actions cause you to hurt someone it means little to that person.
The purposeful living aspect is one I am trying to occupy my mind and time with. Church and the congregation have been doing great for me. I find that it gives me an outlet to redirect my mind so that I don’t feel shame when I look at my wife. I had another set back this weekend again.
I agree that knowing what to do and where to purposefully direct yourself is different than making the actual effort. Even when you are trying your best to be a better person and now wallow in limerence it seems like riding a perpetual escalator. As soon as you get to the top it goes back down.
I have been trying to engage with my wife more. Even if it just being in the same room and talking even if we are doing different things. I have been playing games with our youngest more. Though he has lots of online friends to game with too. And I have been more frequent in calling and talking to our oldest son when he is not working or in classes.
I try to make all the pushes forward and yet I still fall. It’s not a good feeling to know you failing someone despite trying to move forward. It starts feeling like “sorry” is pointless because what else can you do when you can’t even control your own subconscious. And why it betrays you every chance it gets.
Hello Adam. I am sorry you are feeling low. I have experienced that setbacks can, and will, happen. I agree that hurting your loved ones through your actions causes a lot of pain. In your case, its great that your SO is committed to your recovery process. Sometimes, when things seem overwhelming in general, and not necessarily with regards to LO, and I cannot figure them out, I just leave it to the higher power. We are humans, and can do the best we can. Leave the rest to God. I can see that you’re going to church, that is really good. Sorry, I am not much help. I hope you and your SO feel better soon.
Hi Adam,
I am so happy that you are making these efforts in your life. No, we are not perfect people; sometimes it takes a while to accept that about ourselves. Just know we are here for you, rooting for you and your marriage and family, and your efforts don’t go unnoticed.
Thank you ladies for your kind words. I am trying to feel more purposeful and not let this setback well set me back any further than I am. But at the same time look ahead and I hope I can keep it from happening again.
“Sometimes, when things seem overwhelming in general, and not necessarily with regards to LO, and I cannot figure them out, I just leave it to the higher power.”
There is a lot going on. With my’s anxiety keeping her from being able to leave the house much, leaving all the chores to me, to maintaining contact with our oldest boy, to making sure I attend church, I feel pulled in all directions. I have expectations (or have put expectations) on myself from every aspect of life; home, work, church …. Add to my concern about a health issue I am trying to figure out so I have information when I go see the doctor. I think a lot of my young bad habits I am about to pay the price.
So sorry, Adam. Rooting for you. Take care and keep us posted.
f
Thanks frederico. It’s part of being a father and husband and sometimes it is good and sometimes it is hard. My medical concerns aren’t quite dire yet but I need to get ahead of it if it is something more than a common symptom. As I said, bad choices and habits when I was young are catching up with me I think.
And I appreciate ya’ll being here to talk to. If have any updates I will put it in one of the coffeehouse posts
Hi Adam,
I‘m not keeping up at all with the posts, but randomly read yours- take care of yourself, wish you all the best for your health!
@Adam,
Stay positive my Friend. Setbacks are not the end. I know I’m not on here as much nowadays but I try to keep up best I can. You are in my thoughts.
Oh Adam, I didn’t see your post before. I’m so sorry you’re going through all these travails all by yourself. It seems you are getting overwhelmed with all the responsibilities and work. Advice is very nice, but what you need is a helping hand actually. I’m concerned you fall into depression because of lack of help. Is there a way you can get someone to help with the household chores, even if it’s once a week? Can you check with the church if there’s someone available in your neighborhood? What about government social services? It seems your wife needs help from outside. There’s so much you can do while at the same time working full time job. When do you get to rest? You need a practical solution to this problem of the house chores. I hope and pray you get the so much needed help soon. Your brain is escaping to rumination because it cannot deal with the problems at home. It’s a way of soothing your mind. All limerents use escapism to alleviate the stress. I don’t blame you at all for backsliding. I know you’re trying very hard, but there’s so much one can take or put up with. I don’t know what else to say to help you when all you need is practical help!
Hang in there, do whatever you can and think of your physical and mental health first and foremost. Don’t overdo it. A hug from grandma.
The good ol marshmallow test, eh!
So the kids who managed to resist the marshmallows became CEOs, and the ones who couldn’t … became limerents.
But, luckily, we are all capable of change.
I do love a Marshmallow.
The funny thing is, I was that kid who was still eating Halloween candy in February because I’d ration it out and eat one piece per night for months while all my friends binged for 3 days and ate it all. I would aced the marshmallow test. Then I grew up to become an alcoholic and a serial limerent. Go figure….
It might be the best approach for many in this erudite, professional-oriented community, but it’s not very useful for an uncomplicated, low-wage earning commoner like myself… I’m a simple woman with simple tastes and routines… but I’m extremely content and it’s such a shame that limerence has DISTRACTED me so much from the intense and unyielding focus I used to orient towards budget cooking, FIRE (financially independent retired early) and faith communities/reading, podcasts (Nate Hagen’s The Great Simplification and the Modern Mrs. Darcy’s What Should I Read Next?). I’ve never been a goal-oriented person and I don’t feel one iota of a need to add yet more drone-like solitary activities that require purpose and effort… good for you guys who enjoy it, but definitely NOT for me! What I would like is for more LOVE: more joy, more laughter, more compassion, more kindness, more touch (oh the GOOD stuff in life!).
What has helped me most is just understanding the situation (thanks to this blog!), maintaining faith in the process and having patience to wait for LE to “run it’s course”. With the information I’ve learned here I’ve become ever watchful and cognizant which has resulted in me becoming more of a curious observer and less of a paralyzed hostage of my own heart. I surmise it’s thought experiments that have given me victory over limerence. I have extensively catalogued LO’s flaws (and there are many) and have repeatedly sought to navigate them in an imagined romantic relationship and, to some extent, I’ve dealt with them in our actual cordial relationship as coworkers. I was so dazzled by LO a year ago, but as the months passed more of his truer, fuller self emerged… and now I see LO’s superficiality, pettiness, lack of empathy, nuance. He’s prideful but insecure. He sabotages relationships (and then blames the other) and holds grudges.
Very similar to my ex-fiance…
Which explains EVERYTHING!
„Pettiness“! Great word, didn’t know it.
I learn such good vocabulary here.
„It might be the best approach for many in this erudite, professional-oriented community, but it’s not very useful for an uncomplicated, low-wage earning commoner like myself… I’m a simple woman with simple tastes and routines… but I’m extremely content“
Also „erudite“! Great. Not sure how to pronounce, though.
I didn’t think this is such an erudite community, in the end after all talk about stoicism, books and whatnot we all want what you have- we want to be extremely content:)
I‘m also not sure if this Resistance- fighting thing is the right way for me. I‘m a bit tired of fighting.
I even vaguely remember a post of Dr L where he says something against fighting. Will look for it.
Hi Mila,
Limerence is done with by either reciprocation, starvation or fatigue ( tired of fighting it).
NC is the starvation/ suffocation state, it’s what I’m using. If I had kept on trying to connect with LO, it would be like dying the thousand deaths daily. Cut it off “cold turkey “, one mayor win / sudden death, but not the slowly strangulation of every day torture of trying to figure out what LO meant with his wordings or me plotting what to say next time, etc, etc. I regained so much needed control and peace of mind.
I understand you cannot go NC, because your LO works with you sometimes and that’s difficult to sustain. The sparks are ever present….
Courage and strength to you and all that are struggling with this plague.
@Mila.
“I‘m also not sure if this Resistance- fighting thing is the right way for me. I‘m a bit tired of fighting.
I even vaguely remember a post of Dr L where he says something against fighting. Will look for it.”
I know what you mean. I understood Dr. L’s blog post not as an instruction: “Resist Limerence”, but rather, as more of a question: “What are some of the reasons someone might resist trying to live a more purposeful life?”
I think fighting limerence, as you say, only makes limerence “stickier” and harder to overcome. So fighting isn’t always the best approach. 😉
Limerence is sort of this “fog” that takes over our minds and makes it hard to enjoy the things we would actually enjoy if we weren’t experiencing limerence e.g. work, friends, family, hobbies, pets.
I think enjoyment of practical everyday tasks does come back naturally as limerence subsides, for people who do feel concerned about that. 🙂
Sammy,
„But rather, as more of a question: “What are some of the reasons someone might resist trying to live a more purposeful life?”
You are right, of course, but I don’t even have got that kind of energy to pursue this question at the moment.
I rather feel that, since I seem to be at low energy level, it‘s wisest to direct my left energy in the right direction- family, work- and pull it off from LE, and that’s all – no soul-searching and fighting.
At the moment that‘s what seems to work for me.
@Mila.
“I rather feel that, since I seem to be at low energy level, it‘s wisest to direct my left energy in the right direction- family, work- and pull it off from LE, and that’s all – no soul-searching and fighting.
At the moment that‘s what seems to work for me.”
I understand what you mean. It is wise to focus what little energy you have on the things that are most important to you. 🙂
I was actually prescribed antidepressants while I was experiencing limerence, because my doctor thought I had major depression. I felt “wiped out” after starting antidepressants and assumed the “wiped out” effect was due to antidepressants.
In hindsight, I realise the antidepressants hadn’t had time to kick in when I felt so lifeless/exhausted, and I was on a very low dose anyway. So I think the “wiped out” effect was actually a symptom of limerence. (Forced withdrawal from LO, continued craving, disrupted sleep, etc).
Hi Sammy,
could be that a part of it is the coming down from limerence, but there’s also physical, maybe hormonal stuff involved, I guess, and a bit of being overwhelmed by stuff I should do and haven’t done…
The upside is that I really haven’t got energy left for limerent rumination!
@MIla.
“The upside is that I really haven’t got energy left for limerent rumination!”
Ooh … well … fabulous , darling! A win is a win! Way to go! 😁
My favourite anti-rumination hack is: walk myself to the point of exhaustion. Swimming laps might work for some people, too. 🤣
Sammy,
don’t the intrusive thoughts come when you are walking? That‘s what happens with me, but I have to say, that when I’m moving (running, walking) they are more productive( as in work done on processing limerence,) than the ruminations I have when sitting at home, avoiding tasks…
I hate swimming.
@Mila.
“don’t the intrusive thoughts come when you are walking?”
Intrusive thoughts mostly come to me when I’m lying in bed, trying to fall asleep. Intrusive thoughts come to me when I’m forced to be physically still. So if I can “wear myself out” through vigorous exercise, that sometimes tricks my body into drifting off faster. 🙂
One day, though, when I was out walking and on the stretch home, the strangest sensation of happiness mingled with sadness came over me – a sensation I recognised as being related to ecstasy in some way. I realise that walking in the evening releases ecstasy in my brain. Not intrusive thoughts. Just the smells/sights associated with evening. These days, I do my walking in the morning. 😁
@Mila.
“„Pettiness“! Great word, didn’t know it.
I learn such good vocabulary here.”
Am glad your free English vocabulary lessons continue to progress! 😉
Sammy,
Yes that’s a joy here 🙂
I learnt a lot of words and ways of expression from your eloquent posts, for sure.
@Sammy
You mentioned you were prescribed antidepressants during limerence. Did you continue to use antidepressants until they started to kick in? I started low-dose Paxil after my third child was born and almost nine years ago and it has been a great thing for stabilizing my low-grade dysthymia/depression and apparent anxiety. (Ironically, it did nothing to alleviate any limerent episodes — in fact, both of the limerent episodes that I care to mention happened after starting the medication/while married.)
Also, I am curious — do you ever find yourself limerent for other homosexual men, or strictly heterosexual men? I have only read in your posts about heterosexual men. But I haven’t read every post you have written either. I have only been on LWL since December last year.
@Limerent nurse.
“You mentioned you were prescribed antidepressants during limerence. Did you continue to use antidepressants until they started to kick in?”
Interesting question. I was actually a very naughty boy. I threw out my antidepressants before they had a chance to work and refused to make further appointments with my psychiatrist who was prescribing the antidepressants. 🙄🤣
Actually, I was very cheeky and asked Mr Shrink whether he was depressed himself, because he, like, never smiled at me, or laughed at my jokes. He had a very impassive demeanour, but he dutifully informed my dad I had a “good sense of humour”. With a look of disgust, my dad replied: “A dark sense of humour maybe…” 🙄
I became a bit paranoid because of limerence I guess you could say. I was worried that the medical establishment was trying to “mess with my mind” and I didn’t want anyone messing with my mind. Of course, I know now the medical establishment was only trying to be helpful in a slightly clumsy, wildly ineffective way. But, as you would know yourself, limerence makes one feel incredibly alive. And while it was indeed very painful, I didn’t want anything – and certainly not medication – interfering with my ability to feel alive. 😲
So. ultimately, I said no to medication. I didn’t want to go through life a zombie. I wanted to feel the entirety of my personal emotional pain. I wanted to battle whatever I needed to battle without relying on outside help or resorting to “pharmaceutical aides”. 😉
I did spend three days in a mental ward voluntarily. The nurses were really lovely. And the other patients (surprisingly) were lovely too. I burst into tears spontaneously one morning while I was in hospital, and cried and cried, sitting by myself in the common area, cried in public and without shame perhaps for the first time in my adult life. And the next day one of the male patients bounded up to me and said with absolute sincerity that he hoped I was feeling better. 😜
“Also, I am curious — do you ever find yourself limerent for other homosexual men, or strictly heterosexual men? I have only read in your posts about heterosexual men. But I haven’t read every post you have written either. I have only been on LWL since December last year.”
It’s a very tricky question.
I’ve decided that I’ve only been limerent for one male in my life, and that male was very likely bisexual. Or, maybe, he was heterosexual, but wasn’t threatened or put off in any way by validation from another male. To this day, I believe he was quite fond of me; he just didn’t want to date me. I never got a straight answer out of him regarding romantic feelings. In all fairness, I never disclosed romantic feelings to him either. He was like some beautiful dream.
Many years later, there was one gay man I had a crush on. Nothing ever happened between us of a physical nature. But I was rapidly educating myself about limerence in the proceeding months and throughout the course of our acquaintanceship.
One day, when this gay man was standing unusually close to me, I felt my brain flooding with ecstasy, and I thought: “Wow! I’m experiencing the ‘euphoria’ people talk about.” I didn’t want to ruin my growing bond with this gay man, however, by becoming obsessed with him. So instead of dreaming about him from a distance, I actively befriended him. Eye contact, smiles, conversations, hugs, the works. Openly told him he was stunning, blah, blah, blah. but in a complimentary non-sexual way, like a woman telling another woman she’s loves said woman’s blouse.
I think he had slight romantic feelings for me too, because the crush just mellowed into a genuine friendship after a short period of tension/uncertainty had passed. Nothing physical ever happened between us. But we always greeted each other warmly, acknowledged the other’s existence and the other’s physical beauty.
Strangely enough, it was like there was some unwritten pact between us that we were of the same “beauty rank” and wouldn’t make a pass at each other. We were like two dazzling heterosexual women, Carrie Bradshaw and Heidi Klum, giving each other knowing winks as we glided past each other on the catwalk in SATC. Somehow, we’d simultaneously friend-zoned each other, while acknowledging each other’s stratospheric gorgeousness. 🙄🙂
A similar thing happened to me recently with a young man I believe straight-but-open-to-validation-from-the-same-sex. Seemingly mutual sexual tension leading to mild flirting leading to acknowledgement of each other’s most extravagant charms leading to warm banter/self-deprecating jokes/playful insults/platonic friendship. It would appear reciprocation (early reciprocation with very clear communication on both sides) snuffs out the flame of limerence.
I’m very happy about my ability to keep my brain out of the limerent swamp these days. Not every limerent fire needs to be stoked. Two males can find each other wildly attractive, without the situation needing to become painful/embarrassing for one or both parties. 😉
” I’ve never been a goal-oriented person and I don’t feel one iota of a need to add yet more drone-like solitary activities that require purpose and effort…”
SJ
The one thing I am finding in trying Dr L’s purposeful living is that these goal and activities you engage in to forget an LO is that you have to actually put effort and desire into them. You have to actually believe these things will make you a better person and lay the limerence to rest. Otherwise they are nothing but a distraction from LO and do not actually help the limrence subside.
But I do get where you are coming from. Just adding things to your day that take up time, but you have no passion for is just that, busy work. Which is where I think I am bordering on. I want to make these new additions to my life meaningful. But now they are just tasks and obligations. Not purposeful.
I find engaging with my wife and our sons more helps. I’ve made a vow to contact my parents more than I usually do. Try to be less solitary at work. Engage with people. For the most part that helps. And of course the community here.
Unlike you I still struggle to understand her part in the game of limerence. It is still difficult to assign any blame to her as a person or make her part of the equation of limerence. To find her faults. I can find plenty of my own. I guess it’s easier (or maybe self destructive) for me to take the whole blame.
“I find engaging with my wife and our sons more helps. I’ve made a vow to contact my parents more than I usually do. Try to be less solitary at work. Engage with people.”
You and I are taught through our shared faith that love is always the answer, that love is willing the good of the other. And…
That accomplishing this consistently and purely is damn near impossible on this side of death! Ergo the Christ narrative.
Adam, I find your story most relatable here… that I could layer mine over yours and the edges would match up nicely. I know we are very close in age, our sons are the same ages and we’re both amazed by the love, virtues and loyalty of our spouses. Sometimes all this love is overwhelming. My husband once told me, in response to all this limerence stuff, that I struggle because I have so much love to offer. It was the sweetest take on the subject I’ve ever heard.. turning limerence into a virtue. Imagine that!
Your struggle is beautiful, Adam. Keep up the good work!
Adam, have you ever read “The Goal” by Eliyahu Goldratt?
“…productivity is the act of bringing a company closer to its goal. Every action that brings a company closer to its goal is productive. Every action that does not bring a company closer to its goal is not productive.”
Jonah to Rogo, The Goal – Chapter 4
Which leads you to the big question:
What’s the goal?
Once you can answer that, you toss in a little Steven Covey:
“Begin with the end in mind.”
Once you have those nailed down, read this: https://hbr.org/1992/01/successful-change-programs-begin-with-results
The system works if you follow it. Once you have a clearly defined goal, you can reverse engineer how to achieve it. Then, you look at what you’re doing to determine if the actions move you closer to your goal.
That doesn’t mean you’ll like the path to achieving the goal. Success depends on capability and desire. Some paths may not be possible and some paths may not be desirable. You may have to redefine the goal.
The thing is, you’re now in a place to make informed decisions. You know what you’re trying to achieve and you decide if the actions are worth the time, effort, and sacrifice they’ll entail.
Hello Lovisa, Mila, Bewitched, MJ, Adam, IMHO, Nisor, Problem Child, Sammy, Speedwagon, and other LwL friends. Thought I would share my thoughts with regards to my LE, where I am currently.
I seem to be in better control of my emotions now. Thoughts of LO still come in and out unannounced, but they are not as disturbing as they were before. I am also making a conscious effort not to seek LO, whether in thoughts, or physically, or virtually, just no seeking, as much as I can.
I am also praying to God, and trying to have lots of faith that I will get over the LE. I am also trying to be confident and expectant that things are improving, and they will continue to improve. Working on training my subconscious mind by feeing it good thoughts, so that it responds accordingly. Just telling myself that feeling better is around the corner, keep going, many times a day.
I am also feeling happier from the inside, and enjoying life more, so I take that as a good thing :). Earlier, I used to dread upcoming interactions with her, but now I feel in my mind that I can handle them ok, my confidence level is going up. I will update you all once that happens, fingers crossed.
Thanks for listening, and all the very best to us all.
ABCD hi,
And things will keep improving for you! You’ll see! Keep the good work and filling your mind with useful thoughts and enjoying the little things life has to offer. You’re on the right path to succeed. Congratulations.
Best wishes to you.
Thanks Nisor, appreciate it!
Happy for you, ABCD, very happy.
f
Thanks Frederico!
Hi ABCD,
glad you are doing well! It sounds different from a few weeks ago when you dreaded actual contact more than now. So you are making progress!
Thanks for the update!
Thanks, Mila! Yes, it does sound like some real progress!
Mutual limerent here. Ours dragged on for over 20 years, through marriage, divorce, the death of an ex spouse, kids, careers and so on. Let’s just say, it was a lot. There’s way more to it, but I’ll condense it here:
Most of the those years, even after he got divorced and then his ex passed away (I was a single mother with a young son), I just got on with my life thinking that it was all in my head, so I might as well put all that energy and passion that I had for him into building an amazing career, which I did. In part, it was because I had ambitions. But really, it was the only way I could think of to get my mind off of what I thought was the love of my life.
Our limerence came with numerous fits starts and an inability to communicate beyond the random text and vague promises of “visiting” one another, which never seemed to happen. Let’s be honest: He was busy dating other people. I knew this, so I steered clear and kept working.
Then, two years ago, he came roaring back with “I love you, I’ve always loved you, I’ve loved you since the day we met. Let’s get together. Let’s see where this goes. Let’s hang out,” and on and on. Like, it was a ton of bricks that came out of nowhere.
It was a staggering shift. And, if I’m being honest, it made me very skeptical. Like, it’s been 20 years. Why now? What happened? Where have you been? And why all the sudden are you making all these pronouncements and pushing to get together after dangling carrots and random text messages and not showing any interest for years?
Yeah. It didn’t seem real. BUT, out of curiosity (I know. I KNOW.) I met up with him.
Here I can say that I went in with my eyes open. Because I knew how I felt, but I was interested to see what was on the other side. We spent a nice weekend together, but in my heart of hearts, something just felt off. I can’t explain it. But I just knew that it was going to be the last time I ever saw him.
And it was. I was able to really observe in real time his behaviors, actions and words and I broke it off because I couldn’t get past the nagging feeling that *something had happened to him* (eg, a breakup, or some other life event) that caused him to come running out of the blue and push hard for a connection.
I broke it off shortly thereafter because he could not communicate effectively and fully expected that after 20 years that we were just going to pick up where we left off and pretend that two decades hadn’t come between us with virtually no effort from him whatsoever.
Moreover, when we first met, he was definitely ahead of me career-wise. Now, I had grown both emotionally (through lots of therapy), financially and was being published in national publications. He, on the other hand, had languished. Thus, talking with him about my life and career became difficult because we had nothing in common… but our limerence.
After that, I started working on was my own thoughts and intuitions about this situation and why it had such a pull on my emotions. I had thought for years that it had something to do with neural pathways, that somehow my attraction for him had been hardwired into my brain by habitual thinking and that *longing.*
I began to realize that there were two factors at work: Longing became the default; and projection.
I didn’t have a name for it. Nor were there very many resources to lean on in trying to really move beyond those intransigent feelings for him – even after I broke it off. That was hard. Because I knew I did the right thing after all those years, filled with false starts and a vague sense of apathy.
So this site, in many ways, is a godsend. Primarily because of its nonjudgmental science-based, common sense approach in putting in the work and accepting responsibility for one’s own life.
I don’t wish him any ill. And he’s not “the problem.” This was both our doings. But I am committed to once and for all moving on and I just want to offer my thanks to Dr. L for giving this subject the nuance and care needed for those of us who truly want to move out from under the shadow of limerence.
Thanks for sharing your story, Lily. I’m curious, you don’t mention ever getting married or having a long term partner in all those years. Is that because of hope of your LO and you couldn’t move on, or because you focused on being a mom and building a career and just never met the right other person?
Thank you for your comment. It’s more the latter. Motherhood was important, as was my career and I just decided that until my son was grown, I wasn’t really interested in the enormous amount of work it would have taken to meet someone; get to know them; figure out whether it would work; and then the whole blended family thing.
Those were honest calculations. “Do I really want to deal with marriage and blended families when I’ve got a kid and a thriving career?” Hmm. Not really.
Thus, he was kind of a placeholder, if you will, with the tiny flame of hope that maybe, just maybe, he’d come to “his senses,” right? The hope of someday reconnecting is a powerful anesthetic to whatever you’re feeling or going through. As Dr. L writes about, hope (and uncertainty) are a kind of jet fuel for limerence. So the hope was definitely there – but intuitively I knew it was also projection.
Because let’s face it: Hope is easy. Fantasizing about that emotional connection is how we’re socialized. In reality, though, relationships are hard. That’s the work I’m doing on myself.
I commend you on focusing on being a parent and building your career. That’s courageous. I hope now you can purge LO from your life and move on to whatever good things are next. I lost hope in LO about maybe 6 months back and have shifted focus to moving on also.
It’s a grieving process – to be clear. I thought I was fine until I went to Panama for vacation a couple of months ago. Then the grief hit. Hard. Like, harder than it had even after I broke it off.
But, through my own internal work and compass, I had to confront it for what it was: Grief that the “hope” was now gone. Like, the last vestiges of “maybe someday” were no more.
So I’m continuing therapy and acknowledging that LE is a real thing (not just a supposition based on my own observations and experience), which is validating in itself. It’s also as powerful as any drug. But it’s also part of what makes us human. And grief over its loss is – at least I would argue – the same as someone passing away.
Thus, the work continues. For what it’s worth, I have gone through long periods of what felt like resolution. But every once in a while, you need a reset to remind yourself that it’s okay.
So, thank you and good luck to you, as well. 🙂