A few weeks ago I had an enjoyable chat with a journalist, Amanda McCracken, who was writing an article about limerence for the New York Times.
The article is now out (paywall).
It’s a good overview of the realities of limerence, but unfortunately none of our conversation ended up in the final version, because the anonymity I maintain makes it difficult for mainstream sources to be confident about citing me as a source. That’s not too much of a surprise (and Amanda had warned me that would likely be the case), but she did manage to include a link to LwL, which is great.
One of the reasons that the conversation was so engaging for me was that Amanda became interested in limerence from an unconventional direction. She has previously written and presented on the power of longing, and how we can sometimes get caught up in the complicated pleasures of pining for an ideal lover – of romanticising anticipation, and delaying intimacy to avoid the inevitably disillusioning experience of forming a relationship with an actual person.
Here’s her TEDx talk on the topic:
There’s an obvious overlap with limerence, in that both scenarios involve a lot of rumination, idealisation, mood regulation through fantasy, and living in limbo. In some ways, it also overlaps with repeatedly becoming limerent for unavailable people, as there are in-built barriers to consummation. There’s a distance that protects the mental passions from reality.
It’s a love affair entirely within the safety of your own head.
Those kinds of psychological protection mechanisms are powerful blocks on our progress in life. They can hold us back from taking action, pursuing purposeful goals, or embarking on healthy relationships, because taking action moves us out of our comfort zone and into a world of uncertainty and risk. Anxiety is inevitable.
We seek relief from that discomfort by retreating to the fantasy, which feels familiar, secure and safe. It’s a vicious cycle. We spend so long imagining an ideal future that we never take the actions needed to bring that future into existence. There’s a fear that trying will somehow shatter the dream. It’s safer preserved in an imaginary realm than exposed to the world – where it might get tarnished, or disintegrate entirely under the pressures of existence.
A sobering thought, especially as it casts unwelcome light on the psychological security blanket of anonymity that meant my contribution could not be included in the NYT article.
Something for me to reflect on…
Dr. L, I’m sorry your points of view were not considered to be published on account of anonymity. Perhaps, sometime in the near future?
The TED talk left me confused, or did I misunderstand her point of view…? That is, she waited so long to have intimacy with a man, at the end, is she trying to say it was worth the wait? I’ll listen to it again.
Have a great and peaceful weekend.
“There’s a fear that trying will somehow shatter the dream. It’s safer preserved in an imaginary realm than exposed to the world – where it might get tarnished, or disintegrate entirely under the pressure of existence.” Dr. L.
I kind of understand your fear of becoming public with your blog, you’ll lose your privilege of privacy and keeping the blog operating intact , even fear of the demise of it in the future if it were to be taken over by other forces??? You’d have no control over it? It’s nice the way it is now ; we feel like family , but it’s your decision. Your pet project will loose its charm for us, maybe…. You will have to decide on what action to take for the future of the blog. Very uncomfortable position eh? Wondering what the future will bring… opening the doors to new opportunities?
Wishing you wisdom and the best for you and the blog.
I could read the article without paying by creating a free account.
I don’t quite understand why she couldn’t put you in anonymously with a link to LwL, but I don’t know much about journalism. I guess you shouldn’t regret staying anonymous, it’s a good choice for you and your family and generally living life in peace.
The site is in NY Times which is great, so many limerents will click that link, I guess, and what counts (of course only in my humble opinion) is how many people you can help and not how much recognition you get in academic circles or papers…
I admit, when I read it last week I wanted to see if you would forego your anonymity, Dr. L 😉. But you didn’t, and I am glad for that. I would’ve done the same.
Having anonymous cites in a topic like this reduces the journalist’s and paper’s credibility, especially when she has people who are willing to use their names.
I appreciate that the idea is out in the open, though. I hope it brings help and understanding to hurting and confused people.
I totally understand why you want to remain anonymous Dr L . I’m going through my first (and hopefully last) LE and I cringe at the thought of anyone finding out who I am. I get why you were keeping your psychological security blanket in place. But should we all strive for anonymity or are we better off owning up to what is essentially a unique chemistry going on in our brains? Maybe we all secretly enjoy keeping it a secret.
Dr L,
Somehow I feel your anonymity enhances the potency of your words. We can focus on your content versus the person. And I for one have reached Limerence sobriety with the help of this blog and the reprogramming course and have the luxury of maintaining my dignity and anonymity throughout the whole process, supported by an anonymous group of cheerleaders/coaches. It’s like a secret club!
Of course if you want to shoot for the Big Time maybe perhaps anonymity is unavoidable and we all support whatever decision you make.
But remember, we like the wizard behind the curtain. 😁
Pay no attention to that Man behind the curtain..👽😱🤣
Please feel free to create an account and join our anonymous forum at:
[limerenceforums dot com]
*edit by Dr L* – apologies LwLKassandra but I’m having trouble with Gmail flagging emails from LwL as phishing/malware and so have decided to deactivate all external comment links while I sort it out.
I recommend this also..
I found this place as the first google search result for “limerence”. The thing about anonymity on the internet versus published articles (especially for something like NYT) is that their is usually no ulterior motive. Being published has a reputation to uphold and with that comes motivations for more than just the content of the article. Of course not saying this is the case with Amanda, just making an in general statement that I far more trust Dr L’s motivations with this blog than I do a published news article that has commercial success as a motivating factor.
Here is something I just discovered a couple of hours ago: I am 58 years old and I am nearly absolutely certain that – not only am I quite vulnerable to limerence, but – I have had a RAGING case of Cognitive Disengagement Syndrome my whole entire life! It is closely associated with ADHD. Here is an article on the topic:
https://www.additudemag.com/cognitive-disengagement-syndrome-overview-symptoms-add-adhd/
Could there be a correlation? Could this be a confounding factor? Does this resonate with anyone else?
Hi James,
I had never heard of this condition, but thanks for bringing it up. I personally do not have those symptoms, but it is interesting to learn about it. Have you talked to a doctor about it? Do you seek help for it? If so, what works for you? Just curious!
I definitely want to bring this up with my doctor next time I see her. I have an appointment next month, but I might want to set one up earlier, since I’ve had this epiphany.
@ Snowpheonix:
I guess I should stop using my real name; I will be James A. from now on. I guess I had a long-shot hope that my LO might see my posts and here I could finally actually converse with her. I know limerence is a powerfull emotion for anyone experiencing it, but in my case it seemes to be especially disempowering. But hey, I have HOPE, right!? (dripping with sarcasm), or is it ROPE, just enough to hang myself with. (No, I’m not suicidal; however, it does amaze me that I never was.)
Hi James,
Please forgive my often Q&A style posts here, while some prefer courteous and mannered posters.
I don’t think I’ve previously spoken with you, nor could I see any of your older posts (aside from the two earlier ones connected to this one); so you used your real names in all your previous messages to hope that you LO might by chance read them and even respond them? She might be already here or have dropped in by chance, who knows? DrL would NOT know, either.
What I want to ask is: how and why in your case, LE is more disempowering, by comparison to others’ LE here? What do you wish to converse with your LO (or talk about her), if she was/is/will be here? By expressing or doing what, do you think you could possibly be empowered again? Do other ears of limerents here could be of a help, in some fashions?
Hope? Of course, you have HOPE, every dying-hard limerent HAS a hope, regardless their reality, common or peculiar. During my LE #3 (w/ NarcLO) and LE #5 (FWB LO now), I had ideation of suicide, and even bought a bottle of sleeping pill during the latter. But my father’s words always echoed on the back of mind: We’ll all get to our graveyard soon or later, why hurry?!
So I let myself “burned” to ashes again and again, now I’m flying around here as a hopeful red bird , despite my realistic “plight”, and no available Dragons insight….☺️
So do NOT ever despair, no matter what pre-dispositions/pre-conditions you think you have (what did your doctor say), there are many new paths laying in front of you (as well as rest of us). Just explore them with a strong sense of adventures, accompanied by many of your fellow limerents here…
If you use a pen name, you might feel much freer to talk and express whatever you feel urge to …
Good luck!
Hi, James A.
“I know limerence is a powerful emotion for anyone experiencing it, but in my case it seems to be especially disempowering.”
Im sorry you feel that way. Yes, limerence is a powerful emotion, I attest to that!
Are you the lawyer that lost the job on LOs account? Excuse me if am wrong.
Can you check the following article in the web? It might be helpful in your situation.
“Sneaky disempowerments and 7 steps to avoid them” by Karen Rohlfs
Hope you feel better soon. Courage and strength to you.
Love your insights DrL! You bring sanity into my relationship chaos. Do you alert via email when you have new blogs/articles? I have never received any and when my fantasy mind starts wondering how my quiet bpd LO is doing, I remember to come here to find anything to crack me back to reality (there is always something here! cheers!).
Hi Malibu,
Dr.L usually posts a new blog post on Saturdays, so tomorrow might come a new one…
DrL,
I can’t thank you enough for the anonymous nature of this site from a “safety” point of view.
In the East, doxing/doxxing (nicknamed “Human Flesh Hunt” over there) is frequently used not only by government but also by laymen to track down (can be less in a hour) any ideologically or morally disagreeable speakers in any public domain. Then speakers get attacked both online and in reality.
Limerence IS in a minefield of morality/ethics, despite its strong neurological components.
Just scanned through NYT responses and think my dying LE case resonates most with this reply, which I’ve recognized about a year ago (before found LwL) —
“Many of the comments here are getting it wrong.
Limerence is not about romantic or even platonic relationships.
It is about unbalanced relationships in which one person is obsessed with the other in a positive, affectionate important way.
That person lives in fear of both losing that person and the fear of achieving the more meaningful relationship he wants. Success means changing the dynamic which the limerent knows will fail.
Maintaining the static condition of having and not having this person in your life is the only way it works, but you know the pain of sustaining this is at some point will be intolerable.
Limerence is a zero sum game. It is all loss.
Paradoxically, the other person, the object of the limerent is unaware of all this, and the limerent knows this and is torn between revealing himself and hiding.
It is unbearable.
My experience is over, but the impact of it remains.
I’ve had serious crushes in my time and got over them. This was different. I don’t think it could/would happen to me again.”
*****
Meanwhile, the story of Berlioz’s LO-muse for his great “Symphonies Fantastique” “glorifies” an undeniable positive, creative side of limerence. (I always love the piece — spinning and escalating the limerence high in the chest… ⚡️)
“By his own admission, Berlioz pined for her, lusted for her, suffered, hankered, thirsted and ached for her, and he dreamt of no one but her. And he began writing her into his music as well.”
https://interlude.hk/hector-berlioz-harriet-smithson-50-shades-obsession/
And – the melodic “Idee Fixe” from his “Symphonie Fantastique” is – in fact – the obsessive appearance of Harriet Smithson —
However – in the end – Berlioz was able to woo Smithson – and they eventually did get married –
Life imitates art – which, in turn – imitates life….”
****
Only wish I could be a female version of Berlioz or Dante, or Goethe….
Snow,
I love the Berlioz and Harriet love story- limerence galore!
We all want to be loved and desired like that!
Watch out for your piano lessons… one never knows where it may take you…ha.
Nisor,
I’ve been listening to full “Symphonie Fantastique” all day, it’s just marvelous, keeping me in a high spirit all day. I remembered that with my poor English, without any knowledge of Berlioz’s limerence story, I wrote a thesis on the 2nd movement of Symphonie Fantastique for my music class in college here. I got a A+ without understanding why. So I asked my young TA why it was good, he went on and on with such a surprising excitement, explaining my interpretation was unique, heart felt (I think I was in a small LE with my young, married literature TA during that time, who noticed my limerent crushing eyes, but graduated and left in 2 months).
Back then, I unconsciously felt how Berlioz described his limerence experience with magic music notes and was able to describe it in an essay.
I’m still practicing my piano daily, but totally for my own hobby, enjoyment, and its therapeutic effects! Still working on advanced dissonant chords, I really want to play real pieces soon!
Now, guess what happened tonight at 6:54pm local time? An incredible Karma has befell on my “poor soul” — I got hit by a GLIMMER! I ✨⚡️
My heart is beating so fast now as I’m telling you this with the second movement “Symphonic Fantastique” playing on the background… 💃🏻
I’ve must have done something good or simply suffered all sorts of loss too much…. I can’t believe a Glimmer could hit me ever again, particularly when I was thrown into the bottom of a well with the loss of my job and LO, topped by a pile of vicious stones…
I’ll describe my new Glimmer a bit more on the “Glimmer” blog. 😄
How is your eye recovery from cataracts operation? 🫂
I see the door at last closing
With an open window in sight.
Licking the wounds at bottom of the well
A Glimmer suddenly brightens the whole sky.
Nisor,
I forgot to mention yesterday that in Berlioz limerence story, I would Prefer to be Berlioz to compose a master piece . I want to be the one to love fully… of course after a trial of loving and creating eventually be reciprocated.
It’s so sunny here, had 3.5 hours of sleep, refreshed and ready to teach.
Nisor,
Have you watched this beautiful documentary on Fantastique? I’ve throughly appreciated its director’s musical and psychological interpretations of the entire Symphonie, movement by movement, notes by notes, instruments by instruments, with tons of historical background and scenes of Berlioz and Harriet’s life back in France and Paris!
It’s a glory of one limerence story, as you put it.
https://youtu.be/wWi3xslzeEY?si=QF48zLvzVcXEQDSl.
1st movement (passion) — LO
2-5 movements — Limerence
Right now, I’m feeling in the 1st movement 1 (at 2:30 minutes mark) ☺️
Nisor,
On Monday’s night, I already felt at 9:00 mark in the first movement…. 💃🏻 Then it quiet down the next day, saw LO a lot… now, I can’t remember the man’s face clearly… ☺️
Snow hi,
I watched the documentary on Berlioz, it’s magnificent!!! Thank you very much for the link. It’s a whole feast!
It has sent me into reverie…
I’m so taken aback, amazed by this man’s passions and tenacity, his fortitude, his desire to succeed, etc. He did all he set himself out to accomplish in spite of the challenges of those times. Uff , what a personality! Incredible vitality.
I now see why you’d prefer to be Berlioz to compose such a master piece, and to be the one to love fully. I’m greedy, I want to be on both sides of the equation, to be fully loved and to love fully, one more time…
In pop music , the song “ What I did for love”, Josh Groban sings, “ won’t forget, won’t regret what I did for love” , I won’t forget, nor regret…what I did for love…
Have a good night rest. Sweet dreams…hugs.
Nisor,
I know you’d enjoy the documentary! It’s just magnificent beyond words, making creative limerent souls NOT to regret a limerence experience; that’s what Berlioz, Dante, Goethe, Nietzsche, etc. did for their LO. They did not go MAD, but use the limerence energy to create something that whole humanity could appreciate and enjoy! If Berlioz did not suffer LE’s “madness”, he could not produce such a Masterpiece — the most beautiful Limerence Manifesto!
Even before knowing Berlioz’s biography (only a couple days ago), I knew I wanted to be on Berlioz’s side first, then LO. The former is Active, the latter, passive…. High or low, I have tried to make my LE-longing as positive and beautiful as possible (by not expecting too much in return), while dialing down its negative sides, which are almost all gone — meditation, along with clear logical thinkings, helps let go all unwanted emotions regardless their roots….
Here is in afternoon, and I’m about have tea & cake with the friendlier LO in half an hour in my office…. Not sure what we are going to chat about besides our shared misfortune… . Would I see/sense the new young man on LO’s face? it was a reversal on Monday evening…. 😇
Nisor,
In my LE, I only went through 2 movements, the 3rd, 4th, 5th of a Symphonie Fantastique never occurred before LE died down… I did not go to the after death underworld but seem to have got a new Glimmer hit… ⚡️ ☺️
Snow,
Hope everything goes well with meeting with LO. Now you can be yourself with him, since you’d probably never see him again after he’s gone from work. Besides having a new glimmer , it may diminish your attraction for him. Relax, you got this.
Ps, MJ plays the piano, maybe he can use it to let out his frustrations with LO. I would…
Good luck. 👍
Nisor,
Yes, everything went well with LO in 75 min, we shared some special tea and cake from my COO and talked about our job search, respectively. We recalled a bit of working in this place and what it was good and why it felt like a “family” (LO 19 yrs, me 8). I gave him a small “million-dollar gift”, that was a part of our working history from 5 years ago (I saved two by chance) — one can’t buy it anywhere!
In abstract, I told him my tremendous progress since I came to our anonymous “rehab” (without ever mentioning word “limerence”, he does not know the word and has not read NYT about it) since last July — no longer “miss” my father or need a father figure in my life. He thinks our group is amazing in helping me find my own confident voice and stand. I finally feel as “tall” as he (not in real height, 35 cm shorter).
I apologized again for some melodramas (no specifics) in our interactions due to my “altered mental stage” and thanked him again for being a silent, non-judgmental EAR. He seems to genuinely feel good for me and expressed so. While asked, he says it would be fine if I feel like “monologuing” to him again. I said if I do it again, it won’t be coming from a “child” of six year old. I also told him that the Phantom (disclosed this to him before I came to LwL) was gone not just between us (last April), but also rested in peace inside me nowadays as a part of my history.
He said he’d be interested in learning what kind of condition I had, and I said maybe when it’s warmer before the semester ends.
You’re right that I may never see him again after May. So I want to end this LE beautifully. With LO, it highly possible.
I could not see the new young man on LO’s face.
If I were MJ, I would do something with piano to channel my limerence longing and sentiments through music!
Snow, hi ,
I think you handled yourself very well in the meeting with LO. And as you say, it’s better to end it in a good note, if it’s coming to it’s end. No need for grudges in romantic memoirs. A good reminiscence is better, it enlightens the heart when times passes by and one looks back, surely will have no regrets.
Hugs.
Nisor,
Thank you for your understandings!
“it’s better to end it in a good note, if it’s coming to its end. No need for grudges in romantic memoirs. A good reminiscence is better, it enlightens the heart when time passes by and one looks back, surely will have no regrets.”
That’s pretty much what I have been thinking for a long run, all the way to my death bed… I’m doing my best to forget my pains (still come back and go) and then give all what I can presently, without caring about what others and LO could possibly think of me (a lovesick fool)— the hardest part of Stoic practice! After all, a beautiful reminiscence can only be made by a sincere, courageous heart and mind…
The Curtain is slowly descending….
Many 🫂 to you!
“Maintaining the static condition of having and not having this person in your life is the only way it works, but you know the pain of sustaining this is at some point will be intolerable.
Limerence is a zero sum game. It is all loss.
Paradoxically, the other person, the object of the limerent is unaware of all this, and the limerent knows this and is torn between revealing himself and hiding.
It is unbearable.
I’ve had serious crushes in my time and got over them. This was different. I don’t think it could/would happen to me again.”
@Snow,
Wherever this comes from, it is a spot on. It sums up my LE and then some. Limerence IS a completely different ballgame. I can’t think of one person in my past that ever came close to making me feel this way. I question if anyone will ever again drive me to so many range of emotions. It’s all so very different. Even in such a LC kind of way for me now. Unless someone has been here, they won’t ever fully understand it. These feelings are real and they are debilitating at times.
MJ,
That’s a quote from one of NYT (article on limerence) responder, Richard Douglass Commonwealth • 4 weeks ago. This guy late added another comment that he got over this limerence by a complete NC. I did not copy that part, it’s still there towards the end of comment section.
I placed his description here in LwL, because I felt my situation was mostly close to what he described: I succeeded in LO#4/xSO via marriage, but once having it, LE was gone, in addition to some realistic relationship challenges. And in this LO, I also dreaded to get too close to LO (accepting the PA offers), because I fear some huge disappointments will set in again and kill my cheerful fantasies — a part of my subjective e reality. Am I stupid or what?
One small difference in my case: it’s not ALL LOSS. I was not consciously after LO for a pair-bonding, but for surrogate parenthood, and I somewhat “got” it by monologuing with nearly 2000 missives. LO listened silently, serving as AN EAR. So my cptsd (obtained primarily from parents” got healed a lot, unexpectedly. I disclosed this part to LO and thanked him for not shutting me down. But he might have got disappointed that I never discoursed my pair-bonding driven glimmer, although it was written on my face for the first two years.
I understand your feelings for you LO very well! we are not alone in the path of limerence suffering; there are people out there just like us. Able to gain timed joys from my fantasies, I don’t know how I could help you ease your continuing sufferings.
You’re both single, why would you not to somehow express your feelings to her, while fully preparing to accept a NO?
@Snow,
Thank you for the reply.
I consider my suffering self induced. I make myself sad because LO just increases my anxiety when she’s around and based on her negative body language from the past, I don’t want to yank her chain. I feel like I’d just make a bigger a$$ out of myself more than anything, so I stay in my lane.
For whatever reason, the idea of her still seems possible though because we are both infact single. However she’s never showed much interest beyond the very little she’s done. I don’t think it warrants me going out of my way to kill the idea of something with an actual, verbal “no” from her, when I’m so lonely otherwise without. Adding to the loneliness with her “no” will just make my suffering worse. So I keep everything in limbo because I’m just stupid like that and would rather be hopeful without her actual answer.
It’s limerence insanity, but it’s what I do..
Is it any wonder 2 Therapists have rejected me? Clearly I don’t think right.
MJ hi,
I like it when you say something like” your thinking is not right”, when it comes to LE. Is anyone with limerence thinking right, ? ha. If I were to tell you my inner thinking about LO you’d be very much surprised!!! I think Berlioz obsession for his LO , Harriet, was very much like mine! Limerence in all its splendor! 😂.
How is your dad doing these days?
I feel for you, because I actually have a friend with her mother in bed, Alzheimer’s, almost in comma, and she works, has a tendon in her arm ripped, that needs surgery , and it’s so difficult for her to do all these things, even though she has help during the day. I feel so helpless not being able to lend a hand. She’s not near by.
I pray to God to give you strength and the patience to handle all this with no further consequences. Good day to you, Hugs.
MJ,
I understand your sentiments now; yes, there is no need to express or disclose. But could you channel your longing for the idea of the girl to some kind of creative work, like Berlioz did with his Harriet? Any artistic form?
Hi MJ, Nisor,
I just want to share with you both some of my recent realizations —
The more I deal with — exposed to, realistic LO, the more I realize that I (we) have been in limerence with something fantasized in my (our) own head — it is not LO. In my case, the Phantom (an ideal parent); in Nisor, the Memory of dating her LO of 49 years ago; in MJ, the Idea of an unknown woman.
In think in both of your cases, no direct contact with LO actually strengthens LE, because LO and the reality are not there to refute your fantasies/memories. If LO could interact with you in any fashion (MJ) or bring in new memories/experiences (in Nisor), imaginations/fantasies of unknown LO or the memories of an “old” LO would be altered or even removed.
I realized more of my LE “plight” after LO’s misfortune and deeply worried that I’d carry the dying LE even after the final departure, which would make my coming uncertain life more painful. I felt an urge to finish LE faster (need it as Nisor pointed out), and further separate the Phantom with LO (the tie was not 100% severed in last Spring as I thought).
The only way to do it for me is interacting with LO more, so as to let the reality “kill” the fantasies. Every time LO said something or did something “suspicious” with his LO, it inevitably REFUTED and then “killed”my fantasies. I would then feel further distanced from/alienated by LO, and could not help wonder why and how on earth I was so infatuated with him for so long — those damned cptsd wounds! (Glimmer totally works on its own way disregarding any (un)expectations or circumstances, it CANNOT be prevented or avoided. )
Another unexpected phenomenon happened: seeing my time was “running out” and trying to have more contact with LO, on Day 1 of this semester, I began auditing LO’s class on Religion and Media, which I wanted to take with him 5 years ago (he ignored my request back then). So I’ve got extra two 75-min sessions each week, to intensely observe his teaching, further learn about some of Western culture, and seriously discuss with him after classes.
When taking another LO’s class in religious study back in 2019 Spring, I slipped deeper into LE. This time is opposite — with each session progressed, my sadness about the coming “death” was reduced a little bit, LE was somehow lessened. My point: with an awareness of limerence, an “expose therapy” could effectively work to reduce/remove one’s fantasies, which also helped me reduce the fear of abandonment melange and enabled me to stay calm while encountering its triggers several times during last semester.
After yesterday’s tea time, I felt very sad in the evening and had to repeatedly listen to the 1st movement of Symphonie Fantastique (to reduce the intensity of my sadness). Despite I’ve made efforts to better a possible authentic friendship with LO, my LE passion is more than largely gone, not due to this sudden new Glimmer (I can’t remember young man’s face or feel anything for him right now; perhaps my LE knowledge from LwL is quickly dimming down my new Glimmer). The “passion” has died out without any substantial, creative “fruits” ever produced (unlike in Berlioz’s, Dante’s, Goethe’s or Sammy’s case), except my acute awareness and newly obtained knowledge on limerence.
I truly question whether I’d ever be able to fall in another LE, even with a Glimmer hit!
Well, falling in love or even holding an unrequited love is much healthier and more beautiful than slipping into a limerence — It is INDEED an obsessive illusion, not LOVE.
Dimash’s “Love is not over yet” —
https://youtu.be/5LUGN4B23go?si=roCj5yfCWIIRMpQv
Oh sitting here breaking sails on my tears
Lost at the wind, nothing could ever stay
The uncertain fool was not me, for the truth
All the love we get, we get, we take
Seems weepy days tally here certain tears
Joys that you feel, nothing offers their stay
The loss that we knew was to me only true
All of what we get, we get, we get in scripts
Each time I close my eyes, I see you here with me
Now, I’m going to try to draw you near to me, and…
Your love is just beyond my reach
But when I try to turn around, you’re far, sorrow
Sailing windward for something more but for someone else
Can it be?
All the time
As I see…
I believe, there is love over here.
Hi Snow,
this is what I found a few weeks or months ago, that it’s sometimes better for killing the LE to have real contact and a reality check with LO.
Without contact or only texting like in my case, there develops what you maybe describe as „phantom LO“, something removed from the actual living flawed human being.
But I have to say that I found out that it depends.
When my picture of LO during NC or only texting was positive, concentrating on his lovely and attractive sides and strengths, a reality check would be healthily correcting that picture and reducing the LE.
But when I managed to play him down and see him in a more harsh light and concentrate on his flaws and thus reducing LE while in NC, a reality check would surprise me with his lovely sides and wake up warm feelings again.
Still, I know what you mean by reducing the LE through steady contact without having the fear of abandonment or pain of NC.
Mila,
I so appreciate your insight and thoughtful questions.
“this is what I found a few weeks or months ago, that it’s sometimes better for killing the LE to have real contact and a reality check with LO.”
The unexpected is that I did NOT have your goal in mind, but opposite — see and feel LO as much as possible before a final “separation”. But an opposite effect took place.
“Without contact or only texting like in my case, there develops what you maybe describe as „phantom LO“, something removed from the actual living flawed human being.”
Very true! In my case, whenever I texted to LO’s social media (not his personal email), my mind automatically switched to speaking to the Phantom, because he rarely responded and I made sure that my texting required no replies — you’ve seen my monologues here. If he did replay with one word or an emoji, then they are considered bonus!
LO complained once a long while ago that I did not see him as who he was. Yesterday I again said to his face, “don’t you see that as soon as I wrote there, no matter about what, I was speaking to the Phantom, not YOU; your WhatsApp window is just a tool. And since you rarely replied, a whole empty canvas was left there for me to draw anything favorite that little girl had wished, no one or nothing there to refute me… then such a mental habit could lead to additive fantasying…. ”. His silent, non-judgmental EAR was therapeutic but also simultaneously “addiction” inductive, in addition to reenacting Mother’s ignoring role, — the three paradoxical sides of an elephant!
“When my picture of LO during NC or only texting was positive, concentrating on his lovely and attractive sides and strengths, a reality check would be healthily correcting that picture and reducing the LE.”
By nature, my images of LO or anyone else is positive most of the time (I’m always at ease with colleagues as well as strangers in public), unless their behaviors change my default assumptions. In LO’s case, there was this Halo circling his head, along his positive, cordial demeanor, his slim physique, sweet eyes. Nowadays, after physically encountering him more, those impressions are staying “neutral” or fading: his slim body seems to be stiffer, his movements not as agile as before, he’s bit more pedantic, and mostly, that sparking light is fading in his eyes (might due to the current misfortune) which made me sad.
“But when I managed to play him down and see him in a more harsh light and concentrate on his flaws and thus reducing LE while in NC, a reality check would surprise me with his lovely sides and wake up warm feelings again.”
I rarely consciously “played him down and saw him in a harsh more light”; I was more disappointed and even angered by his lies to me (mostly white lies, another one 2 weeks ago), his secretive rendezvous, and his superficiality in interactions with me/others. But my dreams, those nightmares, had “demonized” him repeatedly which reduced my LE temporarily, less than 3 days. But then, like you, I would have warmer feelings towards him — feeling he was “wronged” by my Unconscious — an independent Being according Carl Jung. Nowadays, his flaws recedes into distance since I’m more emotionally alienated by all the unpleasant melodramas, realistic or imagined.
“Still, I know what you mean by reducing the LE through steady contact without having the fear of abandonment or pain of NC”
My fear of being abandoned has largely reduced after several self-imposed “expose therapy” sessions. I’m feeling sad because I sense my mind is “abandoning” now plain LO even as a colleague/friend (how he feels or thinks about me does not really alter my mind), and my “neutral”, calmer heart is abandoning my previous loving sentiments…. Knowing so well abandonment pains, I never want to be abandoned or to abandon, be they vulnerable human hearts or my own colorful emotions — I feel, therefore I am.
“In think in both of your cases, no direct contact with LO actually strengthens LE, because LO and the reality are not there to refute your fantasies/memories. If LO could interact with you in any fashion imaginations/fantasies of unknown LO or the memories of an “old” LO would be altered or even removed.”
@Snow,
This makes sense. Often I have thought about what little I find out about LO now and then always changes my outlook on her. I also like to fantasize of what things would be like if they actually happened, and I wonder if I would like it or hate it. Hate doesn’t seem possible with LO because I find her so enchanting. However I get that is not steeped in reality. Which is why I think my aggravation over her can lead to sadness.
Btw, Nisor is correct. I do play the big piano. I also write poetry for LO. Although I’ll probably never send anything to her..
“I pray to God to give you strength and the patience to handle all this with no further consequences. Good day to you, Hugs.”
@Nisor,
Thank you for the well wish. Dad has not been great but he isn’t terrible. There was a 2 week period a few weeks ago where things were getting bad and I wondered if hospitalization wasn’t on the horizon again, but he came out of it. It’s just challenging with that and work at the same time so that’s why I haven’t been around here as much.
MJ,
Then play piano more when you feel down, take a challenge to play harder pieces.
If you like poems you wrote for her, perhaps you can share them here, we would never judge them but share and understand your sentiments for her. Of course, you can keep them private for a eternity .
Wild Beauty
Jessica Care Moore
Such a wild beauty
extracted from black ashes (echo)
A series of calculated crashes
I simply
call them romances.
I photograph you in my bed in the morning
I miss you and you never leave
Your scent remains, unbelievably
I pray to all the Gods
and my lies still don’t believe in me.
You dance inside the snow
Slush beneath your boots
We talk philosophy and hardcover books
Sometimes i find the heart you took and carry
It around, a handsome crook
A savior among a crown
of thorns and petals never worn
Of flowers dead and letters never sent
Did you see the way the summer wept
Did you feel my bones break
inside your hands
?
How fragile are the strong and mad
Who dare to wrap themselves in flags
Sewn by slaves and walked over graves (echo)
Jessica, you say, you must behave.
Yourself. I don’t know what to do with wealth
Cept spend it on a love affair or place bright flowers
In my hair.
Just tell me what color I should wear to a funeral
with no people there?
Bodies asleep deep in my chest
Kiss me, since we are all that’s left
In love, in fear, scared half to death
Humans aren’t so interesting my son insists
We have no wings. No power beyond our century
We are given less, and still we sing.
We dress the part
I keep the veil, and pawn the rings.
I want to steal Saul’s new hat and Dante’s bright green boots
My fashionable brothers.
You. Brooklyn bridge. I am hula hoop
Swirling dervish in a perfect suit
Oh my love, my memory swoons.
Such a wild beauty extracted from black ashes (echo)
A series of calculated crashes
I simply call them beautiful massive
Oh wait, I believe I wrote romances.
Protecting me from the brutality, the wounded savage
You, that’s me. Pointing fingers deliciously.
Baby, please hold onto me.
I only want love to hold me for ransom. I know he is.
They are all so handsome. Perhaps, a very good looking cancer.
I call your name, pray you don’t answer.
Such a wild
beauty.
@MJ
Check out Snow’s latest poem (the one just above). It might strike a chord with you.
Thanks Snow, I liked it very much 😍 and will bookmark it for when I need some inspiration ….
@Bewitched,
It’s not my poem, but by Jessica Care Moore.
I thought it might speak something felt by a lot of us here —
“I wrote the poem, ‘Wild Beauty,’ in the middle of the night. I was balancing heartbreak, isolation, friendship, and a longing for true love. I’d been reading a lot of Sylvia Plath and experimenting with the sound of my poems. They changed during the pandemic. I changed. Every line is more intentional. The visual quality of the poem was inspired by Virgil Abloh’s gorgeous short film, Peculiar Contrast, Perfect Light— solace and sadness. It was a difficult time for me, lots of loss, and still, I was searching for beauty, for love. I loved seeing my artist family, Yasiin Bey and Saul Williams, in the film, and I put them in the poem. I missed being connected to poets, to people. ‘Wild Beauty’ is one poem that led to my full experimental opera, the title inspired by the last book that Ntozake Shange signed for me before she passed away. The original wild beauty.”
—jessica Care moore
@Snow,
The beginning of that poem is beautiful. I do identify well with it.
“I photograph you in my bed in the morning. I miss you and you never leave
Your scent remains, unbelievably
I pray to all the Gods
and my lies still don’t believe in me.”
Thank you for posting it
and thank you @Bewitched for directing it my way..
My poetry isn’t even close to that elaborate and probably lame by comparison, but it’s for LO and I guess that’s all that matters.
I also really appreciate this comment from NYT —
“ Laura S.
Knife River, MN • 4 weeks ago
Having a lifetime of limerence experiences just knowing there is a word for the phenomena is illuminating. If there are fantasies involved that produce dopamine hits I can see how the addiction can happen. I am an artist and so blank canvases are promising and hopeful before the painting begins because I am imagining the results.
I’m glad that there are suggestions within this article like meditation and self love and both those required acceptance of life followed by the practice of celebrating small real joys instead of fantasy masterpieces.”
“Meditation and self love” do work. The former involves physical, mental concentration (I do daily); the latter entails non-judgmental, unwavering acceptance and embrace of one’s own emotions and thoughts of all shades — all light and shadow parts (each can’t exist without the other), without acting them All out and without being bent by the world’s (un)favorite or (un)popular opinions (a lot of morally fanatic stones just hurdled at me recently from a LwL “friend”). That’s an essence of Jung’s individuation, which would lead one to true mental and emotional independence and strength, self respect, and self love.
Dear Snowpheonix,
I just wanted to say something. To me, you and Sammy seem like such great friends on here, most of the time, with the odd tussle now and again.
But recently you and Sammy have had a falling out and I must say that I feel your pain. I really do not want to get involved except to offer some support, from afar, and tell you that I interpret it as something triggered in Sammy, rather than anything you did.
The things he said seemed very personal, but try not to take it personally – if you can. Its hard, I know. I don’t know what is going on with you Sammy, but I thought you said some really harsh things. None of us are so robust that we can handle hearing that sort of thing. Stoic or not. Again, I hate to interfere but I can fee how hurt Snowpheonix is and it makes me sad that this has blown up.
Snowpheonix, I am sure that it will work itself out. You are going through a harder time than most of us right now, and you have a lot to contend with. Which is why I am sending you an extra large and robust virtual hug.
Dear Bewitched,
Thank you so much for your empathetic message, which made me in tears for a short time (I habitually, automatically control them while wishing to have more of them… *sigh*) I could even allow myself to be “weak” when only by myself — annoyingly stoic. ✊ (I take a “freezing” shower right after a hot one, striving for one minute…)
“you and Sammy seem like such great friends on here, most of the time, with the odd tussle now and again.”
That’s how I have been feeling (despite we disagree on many issues), even feeling familiar and comfortable enough to tease and joke a little bit (do you see I joke with any other suffering “ghosts” here?) But you and I might be both wrong. 😑
“But recently you and Sammy have had a falling out and I must say that I feel your pain.”
Thank you for your sensibility and empathy for the wounds dashed with more salt….
“I really do not want to get involved except to offer some support, from afar, “
Thank you, Bewtiched! Please do not stress yourself for such an unexpected scene, just imagine you’re an audience “from afar”, watching improvising shows: one actor suddenly either had an Aspie meltdown, or changed his role from Dr. Jekyll to Mr. Hyde, or seized by Oedipus complex, or attacked by Narcissus’ envy, or forgot insert Moses’ Ten Commandments” sheet into his white laced sleeve…. 📕
“I interpret it as something triggered in Sammy, rather than anything you did.”
I have some inklings on what might have happened, but really do not want to put any “theories” on the stage now. In the East, to respect others, one FIRST, FAR MOST needs to “save face” of them, meaning not to embarrass them in public in any forms.
“The things he said seemed very personal, but try not to take it personally – if you can. It’s hard, I know. “
Words speak for themselves. First and Far most speaker reveal themselves before they could affect audiences. All the conversations still lay open in LwL, everyone is entitled to have his/her interpretation based on their personality and perspectives. What we think, feel and respect ourself is the MOST important than anyone else’s biased or fair opinions… There is no need to defend our most sincere, authentic speeches.
“Choose not to be harmed, you won’t feel harmed
Don’t feel harmed, and you haven’t been.” — Marcus Aurelius.
I do carry image of Aurelius around — my hero. I still can’t remember all his words in “Meditations” (after reading twice), but remember the main principles. 👑
How to reduce effects of malicious words? Just read them 8-10 times over… then their negative effects WILL reduce. If you don’t believe me, give one of 18 “cake ingredients” a try! 👀
“Snowpheonix, I am sure that it will work itself out.”
When dealing with any matters that have other people involved, I leave 50% of outcome to Fate; since I can only try best in my 50% of portion. If it “will work itself out”, great; if not, C’est la vie! 🫓 Just prepare for possible worsts all the time…
“You are going through a harder time than most of us right now, and you have a lot to contend with.”
In COO there is an idiom: bad luck never walks alone…. By a bad fortune, you fell in a well; then someone throw a pile of stones at you when you’re falling without any rope… I’m always awed by those aged idioms. 👏
“ Which is why I am sending you an extra large and robust virtual hug.”
Your robust virtual hug may have caused my lucky Karma — I’m struck ⚡️ by a Glimmer this early evening, which has sent me into Symphonie Fantastique! 🎶 💃🏻
Bewitched, hi.
Yes, it’s very sad to see this altercate between Snow and Sammy, it really makes me very, very sad, because I care and love them both equally. I think there’s a misunderstanding on each others posts and wish it gets resolved or at least leave it at that. No more stone throwing in any direction please. We can’t be the referee in this case because they are equally estimated by LwL community. I like the exchange with both of them, and I admire and respect Sammy as a human being who also has his own set of difficulties but seems are not easy for him to express them. I hope it gets resolved soon. I suggest not to put more stress on
anybody as we’re all
suffering enough with Limerence and need this place/blog to find solace and understanding. Forgiveness is a beautiful word, it brings healing to broken hearts and relationships. My two cents. I don’t want to get involved in this issue any further…
Hugs to Sammy and Snow.
Best wishes to all.
🫂 Nisor, Bewitched 🫂
Stay Strong! 💪
Indeed Nisor, you are a wise one.
I am glad to see you so happy again, Snowpheonix. And I hope Sammy is feeling okay too (I normally enjoy your ‘purple prose’ immensely, btw).
B x
🫂 Biwitched 🫂
I’m very fond of my “purple proses” 😂, that killed a lot of my brain cells in the train, office, living and bed rooms… framed within important dates, myths and rituals….
“I’m very fond of my “purple proses” 😂
@Snow.
When did you start writing “purple prose”, my dear? That’s news to me, I must say. I was very much under the impression that “burgundy” was your preferred hue? Yes, I had you pegged as “that burgundy woman”. 😇
On a more serious note, let me assure you I’m not mad at you or anything. You’re obviously a sweetheart, and I sense over time we’re going to get along great. But here’s the thing – I take a long time to warm up to new people. I don’t do “instant friendship”. (Yuck!) I’m an introvert’s introvert. You have a big personality and you must give me time to get used to your personality, okay? 😉
There’s nothing wrong with being playful. But I feel playfulness should always be combined with respect for the person/subject matter involved. This requires tact. (I.e. only tease people about traits they already feel proud of. Not all subjects can be mocked or should be mocked equally. Always be mindful of timing/occasion).
Knowing when to tease and what constitutes the right amount of teasing is an art form. It’s the secret to true charm. I’m sure you’ll get the hang of it eventually. When writing commentary, try to read the room beforehand to understand the general … ambience.
Let people be themselves. Let people have their own emotional responses to things. Let people have their own opinions. Try not to go through life with an overly combative attitude – it’s counterproductive. Most human beings dislike conflict intensely.
Seek win-win solutions and strive to be a gracious winner. 😉
Writing tips:
It’s “prose” and not “proses”. It’s “advice” and not “advices”. In English, “prose” is both the singular form of the word and the plural form of the word. “Advice” is both singular and plural too. 😉
Sammy 🏓,
“When did you start writing “purple prose”, my dear? That’s news to me, I must say.”
That was a news to me, too. 🫣
“I was very much under the impression that “burgundy” was your preferred hue? Yes, I had you pegged as “that burgundy woman”. “
Indeed, burgundy is my favorite hue!
“ On a more serious note, let me assure you I’m not mad at you or anything. You’re obviously a sweetheart, and I sense over time we’re going to get along great.”
I’m very happy to hear your sensibility! I’m not sure if I could ever been considered a “sweetheart”, ( by whose standards?) I’m too complex and fluid to be one simple thing, sweet or bitter, purple or burgundy….
Truly getting along, I believe, is based on that idiom, “no discord, no concord”. Some people believe it applies to relationship/romance as well (e.g Beatrice & Benedict in “much ado about nothing”), but some Westerners & Easterners avoid confronting differences and conflicts, and then finally reach agreeable on disagreeables. A superficial harmony leads to inauthenticity. All my close friends have gone through rounds of French Fencing with me over a period of time, months to years.
“But here’s the thing – I take a long time to warm up to new people. I don’t do “instant friendship”. (Yuck!) I’m an introvert’s introvert. You have a big personality and you must give me time to get used to your personality, okay? 😉
A deal! 🤝 in front of all limerent ghosts (gods knows how many!)
“There’s nothing wrong with being playful. But I feel playfulness should always be combined with respect for the person/subject matter involved.”
If without enough respect, I would not have spent so much time and energy to 🏓 with you day and night. I thought you could clearly see it. Sometimes, you were the way too serious; while other times more playful.
“This requires tact. (I.e. only tease people about traits they already feel proud of. Not all subjects can be mocked or should be mocked equally. Always be mindful of timing/occasion).”
This I believer is caused by some cultural differences, which sometimes I was aware and other times I forgot. Next time, I’ll put a tentative “tease” mark in it, so at least you’d know what I’d be trying to do. But to master tacts would take some time, because there are certain serious matters in the West are taken more lightly in the East, and vice vista. I’d add explanations, if I catch the said different values.
“Knowing when to tease and what constitutes the right amount of teasing is an art form. It’s the secret to true charm.”
Totally agree. I need to learn more on this subject.
“I’m sure you’ll get the hang of it eventually. When writing commentary, try to read the room beforehand to understand the general … ambience.”
This rule has not be much observed by me. I generally follow a commentary I was responding to, and let whatever was on my mind of moments naturally flow out onto the page. I found this allow me to be more authentic in finding out what was going on in my thoughts or emotions. If contriving too much, then my responses would become an essay. INFP is not an analytical type, and I do not want to write an essay in a ghost land, which would be too tiring, too restricted, too contrived.
“Let people be themselves. Let people have their own emotional responses to things. Let people have their own opinions.”
I believe I did! And I did not moralize or judge others’ thoughts or emotions, or their limerence behaviors, no matter how much I disagreed with them! I can even empathize with a murder’s motives in reality; they still need to take a legal consequence for their harmful acts!
Still, like many others, the insecure part of me did not like to be attacked (or perceived to be) by others’ moralities for my mere ideations — my entitled thoughts of all kinds and emotions of hues. There is no thought or emotion crime, as our legal system stands. (Except those dictatorship nations)
“Try not to go through life with an overly combative attitude – it’s counterproductive. Most human beings dislike conflict intensely.”
“Overly combative”? I think this is where your misperception or misunderstanding lies. I’m NOT combative — with cptsd, I cannot even raise my hand in others’ classroom or conference all my life! I used the word “combative” to exaggerate my tomboy competitive nature, which may appear strong only in paper.
“Seek win-win solutions and strive to be a gracious winner. “
When I was in a “mature/good” mood, I’d let other side “win” even if I was “right” — to keep a harmony of Eastern kind. When I acted like a child, tired, triggered or irritated, I wish other side to let me win, spoiling me. Win-win solutions are Western, I found it’s very productive and have more chance to create harmonies. It takes practices to come up with.
I would like you to take a factor into more consideration when discussing topics and framing your words with me: my cptsd is steadily getting better, but not healed yet. When it is triggered, without clearly recognization, I could be pushed into self-defensive and even attacking mode, or sulking offline. I felt that in the past, sometimes you seemed to have forgot this, and expected me to behave maturely at the moments of my cptsd being “triggered”.
Writing tips:
“It’s “prose” and not “proses”. It’s “advice” and not “advices”. In English, “prose” is both the singular form of the word and the plural form of the word. “Advice” is both singular and plural too.”
Ah, those blood irregular English grammars! 😩
Just seeing this post now, sorry for the delay. I wrote a comment that day commending Dr. L and LWL: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/27/style/limerence-addiction-love-crush.html#commentsContainer&permid=130756411:130756411. At least 19 people saw it and recommended it – so maybe the reach got extended a little bit and a few more benefitted from this priceless wisdom here.
Thanks for the response link, it’s helpful to read them.