One of the challenges of taking an academic approach to studying limerence is that so much of the evidence about it comes from personal testimony. When Dorothy Tennov first proposed the concept of limerence, she defined it by analysing the unifying experiences of people who were suffering intense infatuation, and then formalising a list of symptoms that were indicative of the state. It was an exercise in pattern recognition.
The problem with this approach is that it is open to all the usual cognitive biases that make anecdotal reports the weakest form of evidence – self reports may be misleading, memories may be unreliable, confirmation bias may make people align their experiences with others, and different individuals can and do experience the same events in different ways.
This is not a criticism of Tennov. She consciously chose the approach she used as a social psychologist, because of the benefits that come from interacting with real people, behaving naturally, in the real world. She wanted to approach limerence like a ethologist studying human behaviour, not like an experimental psychologist designing interventional experiments in animals. It’s kind of a grim joke in the neuroscience field that we can basically cure Alzheimer’s disease in mice, just not in people. Experimental research is obviously powerful, but it doesn’t easily translate into meaningful outcomes for humans.
The ultimate goal, of course, is to try and understand limerence at all levels – from the neurotransmitter to an excruciatingly complex social interaction with a limerent object. But, for any individual limerent, it’s going to be very difficult to disentangle the experience of limerence as a general psychological phenomenon, from their own personal history.
Tennov argued that limerence is a distinct mental state, experienced similarly by many different people, across all cultures. Other commentators see limerence as a manifestation of personal childhood attachment experiences. While at first sight it might seem that those perspectives are incompatible, they can be reconciled. These positions highlight the same problem of taking different academic approaches to limerence. Some of the features of the phenomenon are universal, in the sense that all limerents experience them, but others will be more idiosyncratic and personal.
Most importantly, the drives that give rise to limerence are fundamental, but how we respond to the experience is personal.
The universal
Not everyone experiences limerence, but those that do report some highly consistent symptoms. The universal aspects of limerence are therefore likely to arise from the deep drives of human nature that we all share, regardless of culture, creed, or family of origin. Brain stuff, basically.
The neurochemistry of limerence lies in the deeply embedded neural systems for reward, arousal and bonding. Given life’s rich tapestry, there are of course people who have interesting quirks in the detailed operation of these systems, but they are an integral part of human physiology. We all have them, and they are evolutionarily ancient.
Limerence is a peculiarly unbalanced activation state for these systems. You could make a case that limerents are people who have a brain quirk that means they register a limerent object as a supernormal stimulus, that drives these systems into a state of hyperactivity – a sort of instability in the normal regulation of reward. The outcome, in terms of reward seeking and habitual behaviour, is completely predictable from the way that these neural systems operate. Limerence shares many of the key characteristics of other behavioural addictions. We behave like LO junkies.
Similarly, the experience of “the glimmer” – that uncanny excitement at identifying a person who can trigger limerent excitement within us – comes from the neuroscience of arousal. The spark of recognition, the frisson of intoxicating attraction, is stirred by common subcortical systems that we all share.
The universal aspects of limerence will arise from these fundamental neural systems being nudged – or barged – into a state of hyperactivity that results in the commonly described physical and emotional symptoms of limerence.
In that sense, we are all the same.
The common
The core neurological symptoms of limerence will be universal – the intoxicating excitement, the craving for reciprocation, the extraordinary potency of the desire to bond, the anxiety when uncertainty is strong – but how we react and respond to those drives and impulses that bubble up from our subconscious will be more variable. That’s when our individual personalities begin to assert themselves.
Despite the inevitable divergence in the nature of the limerent experience, there will still be some common responses to the sensations generated by our neurochemistry. When we read or listen to other people’s limerence stories, we often get a reassuring (or mortifying) moment of personal recognition. Perhaps we’ve also embarrassed ourselves in front of a co-worker, had the same awful experience with a narcissist LO leading us on, or similarly lain awake in a marital bed consumed by conflicting desire and shame.
It’s funny to realise that – despite our uniqueness – many of us make the same mistakes, tell ourselves the same stories, fall for the same types of LO, and wrestle with the same moral quandaries. One of the biggest blessings of a community like LwL is finding this common ground, relating to other people going through the same trials, and understanding ourselves a bit better by empathising with others.
This sort of “mid range” limerent experience is a grey zone, where many people will react to the onset of limerence in a similar way, and take fairly predictable action based on the eruption of those limerent urges. The details will differ, but the broad experiences are common to many limerents.
The personal
Finally, the highest level of analysis for limerence is the most variable and most personal. These are the aspects of the limerence experience that differ widely depending on our own personal history.
The most obvious example here is the kind of people that we feel the glimmer for – the idiosyncratic combination of factors that determine who become our “limerence avatars” . The glimmer may feel the same for everyone, but the kind of person that kindles it will not.
This is also the domain in which childhood attachment issues will most obviously manifest. I’ve previously expressed scepticism about attachment issues causing limerence, principally because people with all attachment styles can experience it. Again, this makes sense in terms of the universality of the neural systems that can be driven into a state of person addiction. However, limerents who do have unstable attachments – either anxious or avoidant – will react to limerence in different ways to people with stable attachments.
If you look at the list of symptoms of limerence, many of them have overlap with anxious or avoidant behaviours. It’s therefore likely that people with anxious attachments will feel these symptoms more often or more powerfully, than non-anxious limerents:
- An acute need for reciprocation of equally strong feeling.
- Intensification of feelings by adversity.
- Exaggerated dependency of mood on LO’s actions: elation when sensing reciprocation, devastation when sensing disinterest.
- An aching sensation in “the heart” when uncertainty is strong.
Similarly, for avoidant limerents, those “classical” symptoms of limerence are likely to be less common or less intense.
All limerents will feel anxiety if a previously flirty limerent object is losing romantic interest in them. For limerents with stable attachments this kind of scenario will cause intense discomfort, and attempts to reignite a more intimate connection. For anxious limerents, such an experience would trigger a much more severe emotional reaction. The loss of limerent reward will be coupled to abandonment anxieties, amplifying the impact.
These are the areas of human behaviour which are most variable and unpredictable. Our personal histories shape our expectations of what love should feel like, the kinds of people that excite and unsettle us, the crazy ways we come up with to suppress or overreact to limerent urges – the way that limerence energy transmutes into choices and behaviour will be more personal and individual.
Limerence is universal in its foundations, but highly personal in its details.
Our brains may have an engine for limerence built in, but where we decide to drive is up to us.
“The core neurological symptoms of limerence will be universal – but how we react and respond to those drives are impulses that bubble from our subconscious will be more variable. That’s when our individual personalities begin to assert themselves.” Dr. L.
Totally agree with that. On the personal, I believe it has much to do with personal values, self esteem , low or high; weakness or strengths; attachment problems, secure/insecure; need for validation; others want the adventure and take the risk, others back off to avoid pain, further suffering and probably scandals either at work or home.
“ Our brains may have an engine for limerence built in, but where we decide to drive is up to us.” Dr. L.
Right again! Risky people take a chance at it, and let it lead to where it may… others, are more hesitant , and avoid it at all cost. There’s a battle going on within the limerent s mind who has barriers , they struggle like any other Limerent, but for some hesitant limerents (after much negotiation within themselves), reason prevails and take the necessary precautions or steps to nip it at the bud or sometime before it gets out of control . Not everything will be necessarily rosy, but they have more control of their emotions most of the time, and hopes that it will be over some day, meanwhile trying to live a purposeful life, away from limerence. It takes time, endurance and patience…
Happy Holidays to all LwL community.
Hi Nisor,
Like Sammy, you seem to think or believe that limerents can “choose” their LOs; yet so many of us, like myself, was never able to CHOSE our LO, who just popped in unexpectedly into our life at a “particular” time or circumstance…. Then there might be a rosy/peaceful period between Glimmer and early limerence; while in some cases none between the two…
Trying to control one’s emotions, in either direction, is really futile! In hindsight, I have tried millions of times, in vain. Control one’s actions is possible, not emotions or thoughts, come and go 60,000-80,000 times per day…
The best way to fend off unwanted feelings is just to sit and watch them to rise and fall; all would run its course — a scary fact! Meditation would bring mental peace while let all sorts of emotions breath inside us…
Many writers cherish a variety of emotions and momentary sensations, like painters try very hard to capture images under certain sunlight that never stops moving or fading away…
You’re right that there is a constant battle inside limerent’s mind — take a risk for the ultimate desire or avert a potential disaster in one’s life…. Without SO, limerent tends to go after the former, whether LO is available or taken…. Just look at Annie Ernaux; the barrier is her own mind/psychology, not other external circumstances, eg. conventional morality, etc (luckily she does not have any sort of cptsd)
Before or after laying in our graveyards, except our own Self before and after its last breath, who really cares about what ever happened to our limerence or other matters⁉️ Life is just too short and too indifferent!
In your earlier message, you mentioned to make contribution to humanity or common good (arguably defined), I argue that without a sounding mental health, I’d be only adding a “burden” to others. I’m humble enough to know that getting better and stronger is my own tough, prior task, before I could claim I’m able to help others in any fashion….
I’ve just taken a couple extra part-time teachings during the winter break, so to keep my mind busy and diverted from the post-LE melancholy, besides loads of sole stuff to do at home. I’m about finishing major & minor drillings on my piano…. Believe or not, I do not have time at all to watch Netflix (since beginning of the summer), in addition to “sacrifice” my creative writing… I need 36 hours a day! I slept longer in the past couple of days, which brought me a better mood. Thanks for caring!
Have a beautiful Sunday at your place!
Snowphoenix,
“Like Sammy, you seem to think or believe that limerents can “choose” their LOs; yet so many of us, like myself, was never able to CHOSE our LO, who just popped in unexpectedly into our life at a “particular” time or circumstance…”
I don’t think you can choose your LO or whether or not you become limerent. But you can choose how you act on those feelings, what you do with those feelings. There are actions/thought patterns, etc. that will increase the limerence, will indulge it, and ones that will help extinguish it. Or at least tone down the embers.
And that being said, I think there are things one can do to decrease one’s chances of becoming limerent:
1.) As has been written about on this site: having a purposeful life, having goals, having a sense of fulfillment;
2.) Working on any childhood issues/attachments patterns;
3.) Watching out for potential pitfalls. Middle age seems to be a big one. It was for me.
Limerence has a way of seeping in the cracks in one doesn’t have good defenses. 🙂
“Limerence has a way of seeping in the cracks in one doesn’t have good defenses.”
Yep.
Threat has context.
The defense/boundary has to be appropriate to the threat.
I have very good boundaries and defenses. LO #2 could go through mine like water through a chain link fence.
My guess is if LO #4 had wanted to, so could she.
Everybody has a blind spot.
Marcia,
I agree with you that actions (thoughts might be uncontrollable) could fan up or decrease limerence, especially after one knows and understands what limerence is all about. For me, ignorance of it was the biggest source of suffering from limerence.
To solve childhood issues/attachment patterns seems to be even more crucial than having a purposeful living or concert goals; otherwise, the sense of fulfillment rarely comes or last. Speaking for myself, some around me and some public figures, achieving (un)tangible goals could not heal their childhood wounds, which often lead them into limerence or other forms of addictions no matter how “successful” they become with wealth, fame, power, or popularity, like Matthew Perry — my upbringing could related to his so much….
I suspect, without the healing of deep childhood attachment wounds — the biggest pitfall, one could slip into limerence’s at any age, My LE #1 & #2 were in my teens….
Last Monday it was the 6th anniversary of Father’s passing, which instantly brought my inner child out and drove me into LE #7 (LO served as an imagined surrogate father). Each year on that day, I felt hauntingly painful like a “lost child”, but not this year. I still miss him very much, but not nearly sad. I felt a quiet power within, felt I was in my own strengthening hands, felt I no longer need any father figure, most importantly, I felt no fear even without clear, long term goals on my plate… One day at time, Here and Now, is my current “purposeful living”.
I think I’ve “grown” some substantially, especially after my individuation process, after discovering and learning from LwL, after daily meditation and physical workout, and after hitting piano keys from scratch… I feel my cptsd has got better, although I still see and sense that abandonment melange triggers all over places and events. Profoundly accepting that there is absolutely no place and no one to run to, except my Self, I’m keeping my body and mind busy, so as not to “abandon” myself…. I even feel calmer when dealing with Mother, who nowadays appears like a pitiable child…
The sadness of all the losses in the past and recently still pops into my mind upon every waking up in the dawn, but it does not hurt as much, it’s like a part of my default state. I no longer resist any unpleasant feelings, but quietly watch them rolling in my mind for a few minutes. Then, I practice 30-60 minutes meditation to make up my usually insufficient sleep and move around the rested/stuck Qi from overnight’s slumber. I rarely have enough time to finish what I want to do each day… especially more readings and writings…
How are you doing? With you a very happy holidays, Marcia!
“I don’t think you can choose your LO or whether or not you become limerent. But you can choose how you act on those feelings, what you do with those feelings. There are actions/thought patterns, etc. that will increase the limerence, will indulge it, and ones that will help extinguish it. Or at least tone down the embers.”
@Marcia.
I think human brains are flexible and people can learn to manage limerence very successfully. I think people can become familiar enough with their own “inner workings” that they don’t keep getting swept up in limerence every single time an LO glimmers. I think one can learn to “sit back and enjoy the show” without feeling utterly destroyed and devastated by a less-than-favourable outcome. 🤔
LE,
“Everybody has a blind spot.”
So remove the blind spot. I know there are certaint types who trigger me. I try to avoid them. Keep my dukes up! 🙂
Snowphoenix,
“thoughts might be uncontrollable”
There are still ways to divert them. Some of the things you are doing — the meditaiton, the piano playing, the reading, the writing, the physical exercise. All ways to get one out of their head and focused on something else.
“For me, ignorance of it was the biggest source of suffering from limerence.”
Yes. Up until a few years ago, before I even knew what limerence was, I thought everyone felt as I did (was limerent) and had these big, mutal, limerent-based relationships. And that I’d been cheated or maybe I wasn’t lucky. But of course now I don’t believe that at all.
It’s a very big learning curve.
“like Matthew Perry — my upbringing could related to his so much….”
Yes. There’s that old saying: wherever you go, you take you with you.
“Last Monday it was the 6th anniversary of Father’s passing, which instantly brought my inner child out and drove me into LE #7 (LO served as an imagined surrogate father). Each year on that day, I felt hauntingly painful like a “lost child”, but not this year. I still miss him very much, but not nearly sad. I felt a quiet power within, felt I was in my own strengthening hands, felt I no longer need any father figure, most importantly, I felt no fear even without clear, long term goals on my plate…”
This is wonderful. This is big progress. Did you have a good relationship with your father? I know you’ve written about the difficulties with your mother.
“How are you doing? With you a very happy holidays, Marcia!”
I am ok. Hanging in there. Thanks for asking.
Happy holidays to you!
Hi Sammy,
“I think human brains are flexible and people can learn to manage limerence very successfully. I think people can become familiar enough with their own “inner workings”
This I agree with.
“I think one can learn to “sit back and enjoy the show” without feeling utterly destroyed and devastated by a less-than-favourable outcome. 🤔”
This I have not put to the test yet. 🙂 I’m still a bit worried about it, to be honest. No one has glimmered for me in ages. But I don’t want to go off the deep end again if I sense a little flicker in the future. It’s that Steve Nicks song: Stand Back!! 🙂
Marcia,
“Yes. Up until a few years ago, before I even knew what limerence was, I thought everyone felt as I did (was limerent) and had these big, mutual, limerent-based relationships. And that I’d been cheated or maybe I wasn’t lucky. But of course now I don’t believe that at all.
It’s a very big learning curve.”
The same here! Before I bumped into LwL, that was how I felt exactly about romantic relationship. Romanticism with its vast media support has enforced limerence in so many fashions even in my OCC…
“This is wonderful. This is big progress. Did you have a good relationship with your father? I know you’ve written about the difficulties with your mother.“
I had a much better relationship with my father. He was not an “emotion” showing man, and stoic and somewhat “controlling” at times. Like a big hen, he tried to make me growing under his wings, and always treated me as if I were 3 years old! During my teens, he liked to debate with me, challenging me, often verbally putting me down in front of me and others — a tough love? But behind my back, he bragged about me to show off his parenting skills!
I helplessly “inherited” debating habits from Father and later after coming to the West, I could not help want to “beat him up” in any discussions or just casual conversations, and I annoyingly did. I know deep inside him, he was fond of me and really cared for my happiness.
I still held some resentment over his physical and mental ignorance during my childhood — he was too busy with his work. The biggest complaint was that he did NOT attempt to stop Narc Mother from abusing me physically, emotionally, and mentally. Father got a weak knee with her, even after she made faithful him to wear the green hat several times…. I could not comprehend such saint-like behaviors….
Father also toughened me with some Stoic principle, such as: Prepare for the worst, but do your best in any human affairs. When I felt down, he’d merrily try to cheer me up by asking me to compare with my worse situations, or telling me how he had dealt with his dark time — able to instantly snatch his mind out of negative thoughts, and switch it to some rosy images, like gourmet food or cook something to beat his blue. He’s a food lover and an excellent chief (learned from his Father), he trained me how to cook since I was eight. By the time I entered college at 18, I could cook a banquet with 10 courses, without him hovering over my back but sitting with our guests, bragging or showing off something with his hearty or jolly laughters….
Father’s only narcissistic trait — 1. proud of his achievements and personality. 2. always tried to be and indeed successfully became the center of conversations in any of social gatherings. I rarely got a chance to speak if he was present…. So I still “run” to the West to get my own space to “grow up”. Who wants to be an eternal “chick” under a loving father’s wings (plus Mother is just unbearable), particularly with all my quiet rebellious streaks?
I miss Father very much, but no longer excessively sad…
Marcia,
As I told here before, Father severely “barked” Narc LO #3 away when I had tremendous difficulty to go NC with the latter (whose paternal grandfather was a cousin of my paternal grandfather).
Father was very smart, insightful, and would do anything he was able to protect and support me — dominantly in actions, rare in words… He had an unbending sense of what’s right and what’s wrong, but was unbelievable forgiving, even those who put him in a labor camp… I guess that explains how he could put up with my cruel mother all the way to the end….
I wish I could adopt more of Father’s characteristics, which shine much brighter after his unfortunate passing 6 years ago…
Snowphoenix (I really wish I didn’t have to spell check “phoenix” every time I reply to you lol. Wtf brain?)
As a father I am that way. I remember our oldest boy coming to my wife and I one night in distress because, his now ex of two years, dumped him out of nowhere in a *uck*** text. In literal tears and all I wanted to do was just … what a *itch. I was so angry. I couldn’t summon compassion as a father. All I could do was summon righteous anger (and rightfully so) towards her. I know what it’s like to get your heart broken but I just couldn’t fathom compassion. I still feel bad to this day about my knee jerk reaction.
Emotions are one of the things that I hate to express. My negative ones so easily surface.
“He had an unbending sense of what’s right and what’s wrong, but was unbelievable forgiving”
This was my father as well. I feel/felt so frustrated with myself as a father that I was not my father. Because he was so unconditionally unwavering in his morals I didn’t feel he understood the things in between what is right and wrong. “Yes father premarital sex is a sin. Yes father masturbation is a sin.” No room for the in between. One I maintained the other I did not.
Perhaps that’s where my emotional response comes from. And why they are negative responses most times. Why I can get angry on either or my boys’ behalf but can’t manage to give them a hug. I am so proud of the men both of them have become. But I think about all the positive reinforcement and positive emotions I could have expressed but I didn’t know how. So I quashed them.
My father was my best friend until the day he died. There was nothing I couldn’t talk to him about. He trained me to be an adult. I don’t remember him ever giving me a hug or telling me that he loved me. He did say that he was proud of me frequently. He smiled a lot but I only remember seeing him laugh once. It was when I hit myself in the head bouncing a hammer off a cinder block wall. He thought that was hilarious.
The cool thing about my father was while I would always be his son, as I got older he began to treat me as his equal.
I try to maintain that philosophy with my own children.
Snowphoenix,
It’s nice you had a good relationship with your dad.
I didn’t have one with mine. I think I’d have been better off not having a father at all. I could have filled in the gaps with my grandfathers. It think it’s better to have nothing than one who’s bad.
Marcia,
I’m sorry that your father was a huge disappointment to you!
That’s how I feel about my mother, I’m utterly convinced that I’d be much better off if w/o Mother at all! I wish Father had divorced her when she was so unfaithful with so many textbook Narcissistic traits… Back then, divorce was considered a huge disgrace…
I remember when I was young up to high school, I wished several good gfs’ mother would adopt me into their family…. Now as an only child, I have take care of an extremely dependent her, what a fate! Her habitual negativity and judgmental nature still irritate me a great deal, so I stay away from her as much as possible….
Marcia,
“That’s how I feel about my mother, I’m utterly convinced that I’d be much better off if w/o Mother at all!”
I know the feeling. 🙂
“I remember when I was young up to high school, I wished several good gfs’ mother would adopt me into their family….”
Yes! Every new friend I made, I tried to get to know her family. And each time I was convinced … this was it! I’d finally found the Brady Bunch! Of course … I always found out in time they were NOT the Brady Bunch.
“Now as an only child, I have take care of an extremely dependent her”
Don’t you resent that? I have some siblings and my father always had a wife, anyway. An old man with money will always have a wife. 🙂 And that’s the only person he really valued, anyway.
“Her habitual negativity and judgmental nature still irritate me a great deal, so I stay away from her as much as possible….”
That’s what I would do. The bare minimum and keep my distance.
“Like Sammy, you seem to think or believe that limerents can “choose” their LOs; yet so many of us, like myself, was never able to CHOSE our LO, who just popped in unexpectedly into our life at a “particular” time or circumstance…. Then there might be a rosy/peaceful period between Glimmer and early limerence; while in some cases none between the two…”
@Snowphoenix.
I get what you’re trying to say about the notion of “choosing”. 🤔
Let me rephrase matters in a way that might make more sense:
All limerents are presumably able to do the following:
(1) Identify the person who is glimmering at you. (You haven’t “chosen” this person, but your Unconscious Mind has). The truth is you HAVE chosen this person, but you’re just not aware of it yet, because you’re not in touch with your Unconscious Mind. There are parts of your personality that still remain a mystery – yes, even to you, the proud owner of said personality.
(2) Decide (perhaps unconsciously) that you are going to try and get that person’s attention. Or, alternatively, decide that you will not dissuade that person from paying you attention, should they be paying you attention.
I think what’s going on with you, Snowphoenix, is that your brain and your body aren’t in alignment. Your brain and your body aren’t communicating with each other. If your brain doesn’t consciously choose a course of action, then guess what? Your body will choose the course of action for you, and you will remain largely unconscious of the choice your body has made on your behalf. You will, in effect, be “sleepwalking through life”.
When I say “body” here, I am actually referring to your “Unconscious Mind”. Every time Freud talks about the “Unconscious Mind”, he is really talking about the human body. “Body” and “Unconscious Mind” are synonyms, okay? They are two terms that refer to the same thing. 😉
If inner peace is your ultimate objective in life, then you need to make sure your body and your brain i.e. your Conscious Mind and your Unconscious Mind are on the same page. A lot of people are alienated from their bodies and, hence, they are unable to understand and process their desires. 🤔
Sammy,
You’re very insightful here, except a couple of specialty in my case:
1. It was my Unconscious who chose in all my previous LEs, in just 5 seconds, the LO who was always looking elsewhere, totally unaware of my existence at the moment of my glimmering at them.
2. Last time, it was my Unconscious who paid stealth attention to the Sensor LO, who instinctually sensed it and paid attention back to my attention, not ME. Knowing its unavailability, I did not dissuade it. I didn’t consciously feel any sexual attraction, but curiosity until Dad’s sudden death.
3. It was so true that I “slept walked” through all my life until recent awaking… feeling my life has been wasted away 🥲 my OCC nailed the separation of our body and mind, (my cptsd was unrecognized and unattended) so in the past, I rarely listened to my body and understood its needs and desires.
4. Jung’s concept of the Unconscious differs from Freud, and I’m more of Jung’s followers and disagree that Unconscious and Body are the same thing. The Unconscious is infinitely larger than conscious mind and it includes body’s needs and all its subtle sensations, but I am not going to debate about your concept here. I know what you mean, and acknowledge that our Unconscious IS indeed “wiser” and more powerful than our conscious mind, in its instinctual, emotional and spiritual domain.
As I posted here, since October, my Unconscious has been pushing me out of this lengthy limerence despite my wishes otherwise, nothing the conscious mind could do to reverse its “actions” taking place during my slumbers. Now, I’m out of Eden of Illusions and can’t even relapse despite my attempts….
I agree that body and mind should be in alignment, but if they truly align in my case, I might run into “morality” troubles… 😜
Inner peace is one of my major life goals, for true mental and physical health, but my ultimate dream (since 4 yrs old), as you have thoroughly summarized in another post, is to pair-bond, ideally in body, mind, and soul… but it may remain a dream forever…
Meanwhile, I need to view that “messy” pair-bonding as more spiritual, as you have transcended it… 😄
Happy holidays!
Dear Snow,
I don’t think or believe limerents can choose their LOs at all. What I mean is that the limerent, can choose to pursue in spite of barriers or nip it at the but, if strong enough to do so.(but the heartache will be there).
“La forza del destino” is at play here. A force stronger than you takes over and the limerent is rendered helpless against such force; and definitely submit to it, can’t help that, specially if reciprocated.
LOVE JUST HAPPENS! No one invited it to come, but come it did! It just shows up when least expected and there’s nothing you can do about it , except get all flustered , and welcoming it , even if for some with barriers, or not reciprocated , get the heartaches. It is personal how anyone handles it.
Limerence, is in essence sweet, very sweet, the sweetest feeling one can ever have. He who has not experienced love has not lived. (someone said).
I don’t regret at all being bewitched, enchanted by those beautiful feelings for LO, I always will love LO even if it hurts. The barriers are too huge to overcome, we both have SOs, are old and there’s no hopes for ever being together. And I cannot treat him as a friend…So I have to be reasonable to accept that, and suffer in silence, and be grateful that one once had the opportunity to love with all my being, in such an extraordinary manner!!! Unrepeatable !!! Regrets, yes, but there’s nothing one can do now, except acceptance, which is very hard to come by, but life continues and one must roll on, even if LO is in your mind all the time.
No one says life would be easy, it’s a matter of handling it purposefully and making the best out of it.
Keep your piano lessons going, it must be very interesting. I’m so happy for you and your efforts to excel in everything you do. But it’s okay not to be perfect in everything we do. Don’t strain yourself too much. Always be yourself and to hell with everyone else. You owe nobody nothing. Sorry I nag you with the piano lessons… I want the best for you.
Stay strong 💪🏽 and the best is yet to come your way! Hugs
Nisor,
You’re always so poetically speaking about love, limerence, friendship, and other human emotions… You tend to look at bright sides of matters, while I could not help focus on negative facets.
Only that I don’t equal love to limerence, the latter is quite selfish and annoyingly jealous. At its initial stage after Glimmer and before the thick stage of limerence, the “poetic”, giant infatuation is uniquely sweet, full of ecstatic and exhilarating reveries… But when limerence’s dark clouds hover, everything turns to unhealthy to limerents.
I think what distinguishes love and limerence is when unconquerable barriers exist and persist, how one reacts. Can we ever unconditionally “love” LO like ideal parents are supposed to love their children? With genomic drives involved, I don’t think so; Eros is beautiful but possessive!
It’s easier to “love” LOs when one doesn’t truly know them, who wear halo on their head after we glimmer at them. But after they come forth realistically with all sorts of flaws, especially those “lusty predators” — Narcs or Sensors, can we still blindly “love” them? Don’t we want to run away from them?
I know there are several forces wrestling inside me: one is still attracted to LO probably due to my unbeatable Eros drive; one just wants to punch his beautiful face for his leading-on lies; another one is sympathetic towards his insecurity, another is very cautious, worrying his hypocritical and consequential cruel behaviors — vividly manifested last night in my double layered dreams (like in the film “Inception”, nothing in the dream ever happened in my reality, but could plausibly … ). You see in my case, negative sides exceeds positive, so I try to stay NC, I do not want to get hurt further on top of my melancholy.
Feel free to nag my piano practice, which has a great deal of therapeutic effect, besides satisfying my OCD needs — my hands, like my mind, are always restless, wanting to do something methodically…. Thus indoor gardening or sprouting… I have not skipped a single day in practices ever since I picked it up on Nov 5th, coincidentally I wrote to LO for the last time. Indeed, my ENDEAVOR in learning to master those wonderful keys is my new LO….
Merry Christmas! 🎄
Nisor,
I do love the Phantom, but he does not exist anywhere in reality, it’s just my wishful, ideal creation. To continue dwelling on him to satisfy my life is illogical and crazy, which would hinder my mental and spiritual, progress and purposeful actions….
I’ll have to channel my imaginations to fictional writings or creative living…
Oh, Snow
Killing your phantom , that wishful, ideal creation of yours , will be very painful! Expect to go through the grieving process. It may take awhile, and a lot of courage and changes in your life, but it will surely come to be something that would not bother you anymore.
I think I had a “phantom” myself , a phantom I created as a child, and it became crushed a few times without me being the one doing it, but destiny or my lot. I did give it up as a dream, fantasy or a mere illusion, something unreal. Though I was a beautiful woman (people said it, not me) were intelligent and had great interesting job, I found it difficult to find anyone that met my phantom dreams… if you know what I mean. That is, come close to what I thought real love was. So I just gave up on the fantasy. But, little that I knew, LO came along, did all the pursuing, treated me like a real princess, and my admiration and love for LO , his reciprocation fulfilled my dream come true. I found the unicorn 🦄 without looking for it!!! It was a perfect relationship I was scared of to keep. I couldn’t believe such completion and bliss could exist, and I spoiled it all! Perhaps I didn’t feel worthy of it? I ruined it because of ignorance, lack of experience? Or perhaps ‘ it was not meant to be’, like LO told me regretfully last year when we spoke after forty nine years of our separation. You see, that’s why I’d always love LO, because he was my phantom, my true dream come to reality. I was not looking for it, it just happened! How can I not be glad that it did? I keep this love in my chest, heart ,mind and soul and I have to tame it now for the sake of my sanity.
Las you mentioned, “ I have to channel my imagination to fictional writings or creative living”, likewise I have to channel my imaginations somewhere else also.
So Snow, don’t be pessimistic in your conquest for love, you’re young and never know when it will strike your heart, just don’t look for it, it will just happen when least expected. For me it was the miracle of the century! Yours will come also!
Many hugs.
Nisor,
My conscious mind did not want to kill my Phantom at all, my Unconscious DID after one or two sleeps! I mentioned that the Unconscious seems to be always an “enemy” to my strong wishes, the stronger my wishes, the harder it struck! So nowadays, I no longer make absolute decisions or dream/wish too much of anything…. Just take one step at a time with a “flow” of the moment…
During my difficult childhood and youth with Mother and OCC, it was my Phantom who (un)consciously accompanied me to often “fly” to and stay on my own “cloud” realm, so as to spiritually avoid a lot of mental and emotional pains… it was my spiritual crutch!
Of course, this Phantom — not related to any LO, had changed and evolved as I did, but he’s always been deep inside me w/o an LO, giving me some kind of vague hopes and often cheering up my solitary times…. He’s even more understanding than Father, like my dreamt bosom friend since childhood. When one LO suddenly dropped into my life, I immediately, unconsciously attached the Phantom to him , which was very stupid but helplessly natural…. Only in this LE #7, I was able to see the differences and finally separated the Phantom from LO in March before I even knew anything about limerence.
Now, after learning about limerence, I understand the functions of the Phantom — (indeed originated within me, not from but attached to LO), who also hinders me from grounding in reality throughout my life. Yes, I was absolutely unwilling to part with the phantom particularly at the end of my painful LE. But My Unconscious, with all its vast, stored information about my whole life probably knows better what is best for me down the road; so IT killed the phantom through my remembered or forgotten dreams, WHICH brought me into the current, deep melancholy with little hope to only unknowns coming….
Still, I think a life without certain amount of imagination (at least from time to time) — a pair of wings to fly above clouds with crystal clear sky and fresh breeze, is quite “poor”… Without a phantom, writers, artists, and inventors of all sorts would not be able to imagine and create masterpieces…. One’s mind needs to go beyond mere reality in order to enrich or transcend its spirit … I want to and will kindle the phantom of creativity; otherwise, I literally cannot survive…
Unlike some others, I was rarely looking for “love” in the past (except got on online dating briefly — no LO ever came from any apps), it just suddenly struck and always quickly turned to limerence on my side, due to my cptsd…. Gosh I so much craved what I had been deprived in my childhood — an unconditionally loving parent sine Mother was so abusive (Father was often busy at work before my teens). I was a “keychain bearer” like Matthew Perry.
Since puberty, I was always subconsciously seeking an ideal parent in all my relations with boys/men, limerence or not. When they desired a lover from me, I unconsciously wanted an ideal parent from them. My genomic drives made me “pick up”/glimmer at an LO, but my uttermost need for an ideal parent made me went after or cling to LO….. So even they reciprocated as a lover (all 6 LOs and some other dates did) or SO (LO #4), my deprived childhood need was still unmet; thus all my romantic relationship or limerence failed. My need of cptsd is even stronger than all other biological drives — that’s the tragedy in people, in me, with cptsd…
Understanding my previous unfortunate lot, ignorance and mistakes, from now on my first big task is to heal my cptsd, as I have repeated here many times. Romantic relations or even friendships were/are never that simple to me, not just coming from lucks or miracles. They need to be worked — “Ships” need to be steered with clear directions — I need to keep a clarity and vigilance about my subconscious drives, emotional and mental incentives, highs and lows when I associate with people or “ghosts” here, which in return would help treat my cptsd and continue growing as a roundabout person…
Thank you again for encouragement! I’m continue doing better in sleep, meditation, diet, workout, sprouting, hitting piano, rambling here with you…. I still feel sad upon every awaking, but its intensity has reduced a lot, I stay a little while with it with either tears or chest aching, before going into my morning meditation… Afterward, I feel “numb” or peace….
Hugs!
Hi Snow, how’s the phoenix doing today?
I hope you’re doing much better and the sadness alleviated somehow. It takes time – time and some effort on our part Will help in the long run. What I do to counter my sadness and intrusive thoughts, I spend time alone in bed, (I need to lay down) to let them run their course, talk to myself and convince myself of certain things I have to come to terms with, maybe cry , after a while I get up and go about my daily business. If I try to block the thoughts I get irksome and pick on my SO. I also try to connect with the esoteric part of myself and it gives me relief. Also, I go for long walks for extraversion.
You do your meditation and work outs that helps a lot, also , piano lessons, your “gardening”, well that’s a lot of accomplishment right there! Congratulations, you’re doing just fine! No one ever won the war in one day… as you say, let each day flow at its own pace.
I gather you’re trying to manage the Cptsd first . I think that’s the correct thing to do now and in the future. Those symptoms and triggers of this disorder are very challenging. And you try so hard to overcome them! It sounds exhausting! Is there a community of like minded individuals you can join in your area? I think it would do you good, just an idea…I heard of the “Hanley Center Org.” in Florida which have specific programs to deal with Cptsd. They say they have therapist who deal with brain recovery; clinical team has tools one needs to thrive and experience for recovery for a lifetime. Maybe you can check it out if they have help long distance?
Hope you spend the work break to become stronger in your mind and body and ready to confront life in its true colors with the help of your creative spirit, always looking for the positive side of life. A cloudy day? The sun will surely come out again, it’s behind the clouds…
I agree with your statement:
“One’s mind needs to go beyond mere reality in order to enrich or transcend its spirit…”. Yessss!
A very tight hug, ouch! I hope I didn’t hurt you.
Nisor,
I’ve spent the past 7.5 years dealing with my cptsd with two previous therapists since it was first diagnosed in 2016 summer, a year before I bumped into LO #7. The first therapist helped me in analyzing what cptsd is and how it might have manifested in my childhood and the present time.
However, the incessant talks about cptsd (or LE or any matter) repeatedly, plus their subconscious “agenda”/desire to “control” me did not help me ease my cptsd symptoms; the first snobby therapist made it much worse because she tried to reenact my childhood scenes as my Mother, so to expose me to the past traumas again in order to get over it. I was so enraged that I wanted to punch her face and almost wrote a terrible review in Google. When therapist wanted to put a psychological leash on their client, it would be worse than having NO one to talk to about any issues! 😡
The second “caring” therapist was older and softer but not knowledgable enough, and also subtly directed me to her agenda and was very nosy poking around LO, So I did not even mention my LE to her at all after one year. Again, I fired her as well by the end of last year. Before these two, I had other ones dealing with other issues, now I’m THOROUGHLY through any kind of therapy!
I also joined a local cptsd meetup once, my gosh, most cases of cptsd were much worse than mine; and the sufferers in it had little clue what to do besides venting out their heart-breaking stories repeatedly (no trained professional around to facilitate). More I listened and shared, the more aggravated I became. I know the world is 80% screwed up, but I do not need to hear about specific dark/“evil” examples at weekly basis, like the world news. So I quit it and never wanted to be in any cptsd group again — I was always awkward in any type of groups anyway, just comfortable in one-to-one or one-to-three social settings or being a lone wolf!
This past summer, I actually learned much more through Crappy Childhood Fairy (2nd time around), since she analyzes and works through realistic cases. As a sufferer of cptsd for decades herself with many failed therapies, she developed her own self-relying daily writing/“verbal rambling” practice followed by an easy 20-minute meditation (mine is bit longer and harder than hers) which I did not believe first time and found it effective during the summer… It’s so simple and self-reliable, which is what I always pursued in all matters, except in relationships.
My anger towards Mother and my LE have reduced, although it still emerges from time to time, particularly when I felt physically tired, also at my own stupidity, stubbornness, and softness… My meditation also helps in managing my OCD and Fear of abandonment mélange, in my eyes its trigger exist everywhere….
“Peace”/numbness has been with me more, but there’s one problem — no joy! I feel “satisfied” with my daily busy activities, but they do NOT bring enough joy. The old cliche: NO pain, No gain, No joy!
I do let sadness or other negative emotions run their course, especially now I have more time by myself, no need to run anywhere physically, emotionally, or mentally….
Happy Holidayes!
I think limerence is a universal experience if it’s understood as some kind of inborn drive within us all to pair-bond. The problem is this drive to pair-bond seems to be irrational, even if it happens between two people who are perfectly suited to each other. I think most human beings pride themselves on being rational and are uncomfortable with the idea that there’s this huge area of human experience i.e. mating/reproduction that’s under the sway of instinct/emotion. And when I say instinct/emotion, what I really mean is … hormonal forces. 🤣
What’s I’m trying to get at is – in limerence, one chooses the person one believes will make one really, really happy. Happiness is presumably measured in intermittent release of dopamine, at least some of the time. One doesn’t always choose the best choice. One doesn’t always see the best choice. But one chooses the choice one believes most rewarding… Essentially, one goes with one’s hormones. One’s hormones votes on one’s behalf regarding mate choice. 😉
I think limerence is a biological phenomenon and hence the criteria for choosing an LO would also be primarily biological. In other words, looks/heath/things related to reproductive fitness are going to feature prominently in the limerent’s subconscious mind. “Hot” people would have an advantage (as potential LOs). But there’s more to reproduction than good looks. Males who signal “good provider” and females who signal “great mother” would also have a one-up as potential LOs. And human beings likely pick up on all these traits subconsciously.
I think when limerence happens between a man and woman who can be together, there’s no reason to question limerence, and very little reason to criticise limerence. When limerence happens between people who society says shouldn’t be together, one instantly becomes acutely aware of limerence, and maybe also aware of some of downsides. Guilt kicks in, fear and shame, etc, etc. But I think limerence is largely invisible – even to limerents themselves – if and when everything is going according to plan. I.e. “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”
Some people say being gay is a choice and other people insist it isn’t. I’m less interested in fancy politics than I am in biological reality. I would argue that on the one hand infatuation isn’t a choice, romantic attraction isn’t a choice. I would make the case simultaneously that infatuation is temporary, and romantic attraction wears off with familiarity and the passage of time. See, learning about limerence has given me a more nuanced understanding of sexuality.
I think what’s really going on with gay people is that when a female is attracted to another female, she is being rewarded with a giant buzz of dopamine for that attraction. Alternatively, if a male is attracted to another male, first male will be rewarded with a giant buzz of dopamine for that attraction. If attraction is understood to be the result of dopamine release in the brain, then attraction – even attraction to unconventional love objects – will appear a lot less sinister.
People don’t choose to be rewarded with dopamine for attraction, so in that sense, romantic attraction isn’t a choice. By extension, sexuality initially doesn’t seem to be a choice, since sexuality grows out of attraction. However, after infatuation wears off/wears thin, choice becomes increasingly relevant to the discussion. So, in sum, sexuality is both a choice and not a choice. Certain aspects of human sexuality may be less subject to voluntary control than others.
The dopamine high I got from limerence was so strong that for a long time I was blind as to what my LOs actually wanted. (My first two LOs were probably getting crazy dopamine highs from the girls they were pursuing). I’m embarrassed how out-of-touch I was with other people’s feelings during limerence. I can’t believe another male had total power over me – and on the levels of hormones. (Hormones? What are hormones? Do males even have hormones?) 🤣🙄
On the other hand, the experience was intoxicating while it lasted. While I was under the spell of limerence, I’d likely argue that sexuality is immutable (unchanging over time or unable to be changed). Out of limerence, I’d say sexuality is a lot more fluid than I previously thought. I.e. people’s feelings do change. Or, at the very least, the strength of people’s feelings do change. (People out of limerence still have feelings of desire/attraction, but there isn’t this insane upwelling of hormones reinforcing the desire/attraction at every turn). 🤔
When it comes to sexuality, men are not enslaved by women and women are not enslaved by men. Really, what happens is men are enslaved by their own male hormones when in proximity to an attractive woman (who may or may not be giving off signals) and women are enslaved in turn by their own female hormones when in proximity to an attractive man (who may or may not be giving off signals). In the realm of Eros, human beings are enslaved by their own hormones, and not by other humans. 😉
Hi Sammy,
Very interesting thesis – but – what about all of us midlifers? Hormones dwindling yet limerent as hell?
As a female, particularly, beyond child rearing age. Why am I limerent for someone older than me when having more kids is off the table?
The textbooks would probably say that, or hypothesise that, despite being biologically beyond all that (viz. reproductive hormones), that we are still reacting to their history e.g. our romantic ‘formation’ when those hormones were developmentally at their peak. And also to our romantic archetypes (psychological rather than biological elements) and how they shaped us when we were at that age.
I dunno. Evolutionary psychology is totally over sold, in my opinion. I dont think the drive to reproduce is responsible for half of the things attributed to it.
I always felt that limerence — before I knew it was limerence — was my way of finding/seeing my “soulmate.” And if the limerence was mutual my heart felt like “This. Is. The. One!” It didn’t matter if I was 5 years old, or 37 years old… and it will probably still be there if I reach 80 years old!
I guess the most important thing that I’ve learned after overanalyzing everything is: what am I going to do with it? How am I going to use this thing? For good, for bad, for anything at all?
Me, personally, I am trying to not even let it start. I just want this to not happen again and tear me up over and over again.
“As a female, particularly, beyond child rearing age. Why am I limerent for someone older than me when having more kids is off the table?”
@Bewitched.
Perhaps pair-bonding delivers evolutionary benefits to human beings that goes beyond successful reproduction? We are, after all, social animals. I think being one-half of a pair-bond can lead to a lot of social acceptance, inclusion in various groups, etc. I think human beings like to organise themselves in social groups. Social groups may even increase in importance as one ages, and loses one’s physical vitality. Pair-bonding, even without reproduction, can foster a sense of belonging. 🤔🙂
While the big glimmer is ignited, it is probably dominated by hormone/genomic drives or our romantic type formed in teens; but a limerence is set off by many other factors, especially attachment wounds, no weaker than “enslaving” sexual attraction. Limerence can take place at a platonic level without limerent’s intended or forced libido control.
Sexuality is connected by reproductive organs but mastered by mind. So both men and women are “enslaved” by their hormones and minds, respectively. As Dr.L’s article points out, there is no evidence to indicate testosterone’s level correlating to limerence’s onset or strength.
So anyone could slip/fall into limerence at any biological age, I’m convinced.
@Snowphoenix.
How are you, ma cherie? It’s good to hear from you. Hope that life contains some “peachy shades” for you amidst all the darker hues! 😉
I think people are not quite fully grasping what I’m trying to say…
I’m working from the premise that human beings are biological organisms. Can we all agree human beings are biological organisms? Yes? 😆
Now, no offence to the social constructionists in the building, and no offence to the Romantics among us who embrace the ideas of Rousseau over the ideas of more cynical students of human nature, but all biological organisms already have an inbuilt “life purpose” and that “life purpose” is very, very simple. The purpose of all biological organisms is to reproduce (assuming the species in question reproduces sexually and not asexually).
What does all this mean? This means that all human beings are (unconsciously) driven by the biological impulse to reproduce. It doesn’t matter if someone doesn’t want to reproduce. It doesn’t matter if someone can’t reproduce due to health reasons or lifestyle factors. It doesn’t matter if someone is too old/too young to reproduce. And it doesn’t matter if someone has already successfully reproduced many, many times and with multiple partners. The unconscious drive to pass on one’s genes and to continue to pass on one’s genes remains part of one’s core biology.
One cannot fully transcend one’s biological drives – to transcend fully one’s biological drives is to cease to be human, and I don’t think anyone here aspires to be non-human or superhuman. Perhaps the most misguided feature of all religion is the false narrative that human beings can stop being human beings, and still enjoy enviably good mental health. 🙄
The project to transcend one’s biological drives is doomed to failure anyway. (And no one has tried harder to transcend biology than I have, being raised a good little Christian boy, and all). All one can do is become aware of one’s biological drives and try to make enlightened choices once one becomes sufficiently aware of one’s biological drives. Does that make sense?
However, I DO understand why people often have this super-strong gut reaction to reject evolutionary biology as an adequate explanation for all/any human behaviour. One of the main reasons people reject evolutionary biology as an adequate explanation for human behaviour is that limerence feels insanely spiritual. Reproduction doesn’t seem or sound at all spiritual to most people – not even people who love being parents. Reproduction seems all rather crass and vulgar and messy, right? There are too many bodily fluids involved. Not to mention physical pain, high risk of death before the advent of modern technology, etc, etc.
It’s a paradox – this thing that feels so spiritual (limerence) is inextricably linked to this thing that doesn’t feel spiritual (sexual reproduction). But it is an undeniable fact of life that limerence between human couples in nature leads to one thing and one thing only – sexual reproduction. (Because sexual reproduction is the natural and inevitable outcome of successful mating between healthy heterosexuals of childbearing age).
Just because some cases of limerence don’t result in successful sexual reproduction doesn’t mean the purpose of limerence (under ideal circumstances and between willing parties) isn’t reproduction. Sexual desire feels great. But guess what? It feels great because Mother Nature is trying to incentivise (often very successfully) human beings to pass on their genes. That modern humans can successfully outwit Mother Nature through a variety of means doesn’t mean reproduction isn’t the end game, or the “ultimate meaning and purpose behind all limerent passions”. You see, human beings may have plans for their own lives. But Mother Nature has a plan for human lives too. Mother Nature wants people to reproduce. The drive to reproduce is caused by hormones and not by social mores.
I’m a gay man. I “outwit Mother Nature” time and time again by consistently choosing partners (or being attracted to partners, more accurately) with whom I can’t naturally reproduce. But this doesn’t mean Mother Nature has no hand in my mate selection process. This doesn’t mean that I’m not driven on some level (very minimally I should imagine compared to most people) by hormones and other aspects of evolution.
Let’s get right down to the nitty-gritty: I feel I’m more influenced by dopamine and serotonin than by testosterone. It’s the dance of dopamine and serotonin that causes infatuation IMHO. The men I’m attracted to almost invariably have good looks, good health, exude sexuality, exude masculinity. “Good provider vibes” are a must. I simply adore athleticism – which, let’s face it, would be a real bonus in Caveman times.
My brain zeroes in on “ideal male mate” even if said mate is the wrong sex for me. Wrong sex in the sense of “not reproductively compatible”. I always end up “the brother” of said man and not “the lover” of said man. I am grudgingly coming to accept the brother role. If I accept the brother role with good grace, I’ve found I still get to be an “honoured member of the tribe”, and I’m all about being an “honoured member of the tribe”. I’m sick of being a solitary wanderer. My current male crush even called me “bro” the other day and today he called me “brother”. I hate how well-defined our bond is getting. He quite literally “bro-zoned” me!! 🙄🤣
Feminist Germaine Greer tells a wonderful story in “The Change”, which is a weighty tome all about – yes, you guessed it – menopause! Apparently, back in the bad old days, some Catholic clergyman asked a European noblewoman about the death of erotic desire in human beings, and specifically in women. The European noblewoman offered up this gem of a reply which sounds witty, but was also more than likely the gospel truth – at least as far as the European noblewoman was concerned. “Oh, I do not know [the age which sexual desire in females supposedly begins to wane]. I am only sixty-five!” 😁
I feel that human bodies often age chronologically, but human brains don’t necessarily age chronologically. For example, at one point in my life, I had a grandmother who was eighty years old. But this grandmother openly admitted to all who would listen that she didn’t FEEL eighty-years-old. In her head, in her imagination, yes, even in her heart, she was still a young woman of twenty riding a stallion. Some part of her brain, you see, remained fixated on a time in her life when she was presumably happiest. 😉
Human beings can certainly channel sexual desire in all sorts of interesting directions – e.g. art, music, literature, architecture, religion – and I’m not saying they shouldn’t. But sexual reproduction is the REASON we feel desire in the first place, even if no sexual reproduction ever takes place and even if sexual reproduction is physically impossible. The excitement of sexual desire is what makes one want to spend time with a person – and a great deal more time than one would voluntarily spend with other acquaintances. 😉
Oh, Dear! I agree with you 120% in this regard!
“EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD IS ABOUT SEX EXCEPT SEX. SEX IS ABOUT POWER.” — OSCAR WIDE
After I rise, on my own, from the bottom of melancholy hell, everything in the world would appear peachy…
😇
@Snowphoenix.
I’m such a vexation to the human spirit, aren’t I? Such a depressing know-it-all? Even my eighth-grade English teacher – a woman with a Ph. D in English Literature – thought I was something of a “monster”. Always trying to explain the apparently-not-obvious to intelligent, well-educated people in the most annoyingly pedantic way… 🤣
I don’t agree with Oscar Wilde, though. Sex isn’t about power. Sex, for me, is about joy. And maybe also about … transcendence! 😇
Sammy,
Sex with a loving and kind heart, with a heart of limerents is not about power,
But sex in narcissist and with narcissist is about power, BE AWARE! I’ve dealt with them, so experienced the attempt to use sex as power to control or fend off a Narc’s insecurity.
Oh Sammy,
I’m in agreement about this biology theory. Whether it is for reproductive reasons or pleasurable reasons.
There’s a lot of cats in the yard where I live. Anyone can tell their heat season. They chase, pursue, shamelessly, males fight with other males and the fight gets gory but they don’t stop pursing until they get the female pinned down. And I don’t think we humans are any different than them, but for some moral codes imposed by society and religion and traditions . I mean, we are supposed to be the Homo sapiens, higher rank kingdom of animals… we have to control our animalistic instincts, be composed and self contained even if you burn with desire! So, that’s why we turn to the spiritual to contain and control, regulate those animalistic instincts, I suppose.
And as I have said before, those sexual instincts has nothing to do with age. I m of age and can confirm it a hundred percent. It has nothing to do with age. This instinct may go dormant for awhile, but if teased by an LO they’ll wake up with great energy!
Observing the cats, after the heat season is over, they go about their restful daily routine as before the heating period.
Done and over with till next year when all the growling, meowing and fight and pursing starts all over again. The old cats too!
“The excitement of sexual desire is what makes one to spend time with a person.”
At least for me, this was true before getting married, I only allowed males to get close to me for that particular reason. I was not interested in male friendships if intimacy was not going to be involved. One of the reasons I married SO was because he was very good at it, even better than LO! Intimacy, that biological part of relationship, was very important to me. I can’t imagine a woman marrying a man without having tried intimacy before marriage! What if he doesn’t satisfy her? Horror!!!
You stay well, and be good now😜
“Sex with a loving and kind heart, with a heart of limerents is not about power,”
@Snowphoenix.
I’m still trying to wrap my head around all this myself, but I think healthy relationships of any kind aren’t about power. Healthy relationships are generally about cooperation and clear communication and finding win-win solutions to any conflicts that arise. I think unhealthy relationships, though, are all about power.
I think people in mutual limerence are tempted to play little games with each other (mostly to attract or repel the other person’s interest, depending on circumstances). I don’t think these games are automatically bad, if everyone’s playing with good intentions and emotionally mature enough to understand the rules/purpose of the game. Non-malicious game-playing between consenting adults can foster intimacy, and be a lot of fun. Think of, say, a young man and a young woman in love writing each other clever love letters – love letters which always hint at desire but never quite declare it.
On the other hand, human brains are tricky things. I’m kind of appalled by all the jealousy and resentment I’ve felt at times (while pretending to be friends with an LO) and I realise that perhaps through naivety I put myself in harm’s way. I put myself into situations where I’d be exposed to (my own) negative emotions. Were these negative emotions caused by low serotonin I wonder?
The intensity of my own negative emotions at certain points in my life definitely have scared me. (Happily, I’m not experiencing strong negative emotions at the moment, but I can look back and shake my head at certain feelings in the past and think: “Who was the person who felt that? Was that person really me?” I think limerence brought out a level of emotional insecurity in me that I didn’t know I had – and I don’t particularly or necessarily feel that way anymore. I.e. this “insecurity” was thankfully “strictly temporary insecurity”, apparently whipped up by the chemical imbalance of infatuation.
I think if limerence leads to pronounced jealousy and exaggerated feelings of resentment, then something has gone wrong in the process. I think strong negative feelings may arise when one realises that one can’t have one’s LO, and yet one can’t turn off one’s desire for LO – a truly unenviable situation ton find oneself in! 🤔
Sammy,
The site just rejected twice to post my long post. I’ll do it later.
Merry Christmas!
@Sammy,
Not sure why this post has encountered a “tremendous” LwL rejection to be heard… the 8th attempt now:
“I think unhealthy relationships, though, are all about power.”
I agree with your view on healthy relationships; unhealthy one is dominantly about power, but not ALL. Children’s desires for parental (caregivers’) unconditional love, is instinctual for safety and survival, not for power control. People with cptsd, at least for me, do not go after power (like Marcia, I don’t even want to be a small boss to anyone), but genuine love (sex is even excluded) or ideal love that can stand time, space and all adversities.
People with cptsd, like frightened, immature, weak-winged birds, have little interests or skills to play games intending to control even themselves, let alone anyone else. they always subconsciously “beg or slave” to get BACK their lost “initial nest” — their innate childhood needs, which as I said somewhere else earlier, could amount more powerful than all other biological drives developed later; the latter is not dead either, just repressed by cptsd needs before it is recognized and somewhat healed.
However, in normal people’s eyes or those of game players, such needy desire of cptsd often come across as “power game” players, because they could hardly understand the latter’s deepest craving, unless they have experienced it in some degree. To be honest, Sammy, after so many talks, I still don’t feel you truly know and understand the depth of my childhood traumas and the degree of my limeence’s intended aim…. I’m not upset at all, since you neither know me in reality nor my entire history, and I’m grateful and delighted that we could discuss so many topics in general. 😄
Sammy,
“I put myself into situations where I’d be exposed to (my own) negative emotions. Were these negative emotions caused by low serotonin I wonder?”
Exposed to and thus eecognizing one’s own negative sides, so as to know how to rein their horns, is a part of self-discovery and self-development, which often occur during some sort of adversities or crisis. I think it’s a necessary, healthy process of one’s life journey. It’s a Jungian individuation journey…. I think some negative emotions are caused by low serotonin, some by cultural conditionings, some by ideological or religious doctrines.
“The intensity of my own negative emotions at certain points in my life definitely have scared me.”
The same here with the content and intensity of my negative emotions, but I am getting calmer in facing them nowadays, and do not particularly wish to kill or run away from them, because I’m certain I won’t put my negative ideation into actions (like punch LO”s handsome face). The more I take humanistic views on my own or anyone else’s negative emotions, the more I express them (like now) without much fear, the more I am at peace with them. “The reason for evil in the world is that people are not able to tell their stories. “ — Carlos Jung
“I think limerence brought out a level of emotional insecurity in me that I didn’t know I had – and I don’t particularly or necessarily feel that way anymore. I.e. this “insecurity” was thankfully “strictly temporary insecurity”, apparently whipped up by the chemical imbalance of infatuation.”
I was mostly aware my social shyness and deep fear which are strongly connected to my insecurity, fundamentally formed through life-time cptsd, which I learned about and suffered more during this LE. Yet, unlike the previous ones, this LE finally urged and pushed me firmly onto the path of self-discovery and self-growth; therefore, through various concrete means especially since the summer (discovered LwL), I’m gradually healing my cptsd and its trigger points. Right now, without a crush or any possible new relationship on the horizon, I proudly feel NO insecurity or fear. As I told Marcia, I also seem no longer feel a need of a father figure — I probably have finally become my own PARENT! (I won’t go to see Mother today, whose habitual negativity would irrtate me somehow)
“I think if limerence leads to pronounced jealousy and exaggerated feelings of resentment, then something has gone wrong in the process. I think strong negative feelings may arise when one realises that one can’t have one’s LO, and yet one can’t turn off one’s desire for LO – a truly unenviable situation one find oneself in”.
Not entirely agree with you here: in my case, my resentment came from Sensor LO’s repeated verbal deceits, black-n-whilte lies and hoovering, in order to sustain my AFFECTION, (which was merely comprised of monologue words, without any physical touch at all), while he only gave out a superficial “friendship” crumbs. If unable or unavailable to hold another person’s affection, then bravely and honorably talk it out and let it go! But as an insecure Sensor, he intended to get hold of all — a wife, a secret pet limerent, and more….
If I knew how to play amorous game as you aforementioned, I could have him at a physical level when the chances were given. However, a true limerent is not after that, such as in my case, but an EA. Even if LO wanted to give more, he’s NOT capable of with his psychological shortcomings. Yet clearly knowing his defects, a slight of me inside still feels pulled towards his physical being, which I admit, must be coming from sone unknown genomic drives, which were really turned on by mainstream “hot men”. He also somewhat resembles the old, insecure me, for which makes me feel sympathetic, which making NC so difficult.
I was going to tell Mila yesterday that it has taken me a tremendous effort not to send any holiday greetings to LO, as we normally exchanged in the past 6 years. Last year LO initiated one on New Year’s Eve, I resisted 10 hours not to reply but gave in on the New Year’s Day. Today, at 6am right after I opened my eyes, LO’s Christmas greeting arrived, which never happened before — he does not even observe it. Now, what am I going to do? NC demands me to remain silence; colleague courtesy requires a few, superficial holiday wishes…
To reply or not to reply, that is a question! 🧐🥴
Sammy,
Not sure why the middle section of my long reply is still being rejected, discussing about “game playing’ and jealousy, they are not even PG-12 rated.
Well, I have expressed my thoughts and kept it for my own records, that’s therapeutic enough… just can’t “win” a debate….🥹 Joking!
@Sammy,
“I think people in mutual limerence are tempted to play little games with each other. “
Speaking for myself only, in all my LEs, I did NOT play any kind of games (nor knew/knows how), but subconsciously, ignorantly sought that missing, idealized “parental unconditioned love” in all LOs, and left them when either the barrier was too big or I found the craved parental care was missing or inadequate (in my boyish SO), instinctual attraction might be an unconscious initiator for Glimmer, but no strong craving for physical intimacy. Yet, every LO (3 platonic ones) came back repeatedly from 2-7 rounds for whatever reasons, until no “glimmer” for them left in my limerent’s eyes…
‘I don’t think these games are automatically bad, if everyone’s playing with good intentions and emotionally mature enough to understand the rules/purpose of the game..“
I suppose you’re right in ordinary situations; however, most people with cptsd have little confidence or lack security to play such good-intentioned amorous games. Psychologically “handicapped”, they often wish to be “granted” or given what their biggest need has craved for, though they may not be consciously aware…
“Think of, say, a young man and a young woman in love writing each other clever love letters – love letters which always hint at desire but never quite declare it.”
Love letters can be a part of a “game”, but also a genuine urge in people, in love/limerence or not; to reveal, and hopefully exchange, emotions and thoughts, assist to know other side, and even prompt self-discovery and self-development along the way….
“On the other hand, human brains are tricky things. I’m kind of appalled by all the jealousy and resentment I’ve felt at times (while pretending to be friends with an LO) and I realise that perhaps through naivety I put myself in harm’s way. “
A true Stoic would not let reactive emotions harm themselves, but face and accept them. In my case, as I mentioned before, I was never jealous of anyone, particularly women prior to the last LE, after its 4.5th year of its 6.5 year total duration. When finally recognizing my first jealousy in late 2022, I simply could not stop berating myself — couldn’t believe such “lowly”, poisonous emotion could have tightly grasped me!
Ok, Sammy,
The middle section, after being edited with a couple of words or phrases, and shortened your original quote, is finally posted —see above ⬆️
Sammy,
Typo: “which I admit, must be coming from some unknown genomic drives, which were rarely turned on by mainstream “hot men”.
I confessed to LO#5 once, “No men in reality or on screen ever appeared Hot to me, unless I glimmered at him 👁️ ….”
To quote Brother Sammy,,
“People don’t choose to be rewarded with dopamine for attraction, so in that sense, romantic attraction isn’t a choice. By extension, sexuality initially doesn’t seem to be a choice, since sexuality grows out of attraction.”
Seeing how my limerence has evolved over time, appears to be almost identical, to that of an early childhood attachment (sexual in nature) issue I can remember feeling aroused by. As a young child, I did not quite understand the feelings I was having, but only know that I was enjoying the visual high I was getting. Nobody ever did anything to me to get this way and in no way did I ever seek it out. It was just always there. Turns out that as I aged, it became a fetish. When I got old enough and figured out what to do with it, I sexualized it. This became a source of some intense joys as a teenager but did me no good going into adulthood and then into a marriage.
Looking back, I can see it was the dopamine high I was getting in being aroused so easily as a silly, horny, teenaged boy. Over the last few years, I have tried to suppress the fetish monster addiction in its intensity but I don’t know if it will ever completely subside. What I do know is that in trying to rid of one addiction, my brain is trying to keep me happy with a person addiction now. I think this is true for many persons with addictions. Because LO turns all those same dopamine wheels for me as did my other issue. I can feel this when I see her, look at her pics, or think of her.
Sometimes I do believe that is why I feel such super intensity for LO like I do, because my limerent brain has found something that it really likes. My feelings for her can be all over the place, but are super intense when I want to think of her as the perfect lover.
“To quote Brother Sammy,,”
@MJ.
Oh dear! Not the public embarrassment of being quoted! I have spent my life shunning the spotlight, I swear! Funny thing is … the spotlight always seems to find me. Maybe I have an unconscious wish to be in the spotlight? 😆
I don’t want to say anything indelicate, so I’ll just dance around the issue. But I think most limerents will understand what I mean and where I’m coming from.
When I was a teenage boy, doing the things that teenage boys invariably do, I accidentally discovered how to tap into the ecstasy-producing part of my own brain. The way I accessed this part of my brain was largely through fantasy. (Or fantasy combined with other ritualised behaviours, if you follow my drift).
The problem is that as a teenage boy I didn’t know that I’d have to pay for every “emotional up” with an equally intense “emotional down”. You see, I thought my brain was handing out free ecstasy (in the form of dopamine hits). I didn’t know that this ecstasy was very likely depleting my serotonin stores. I experienced a lot of depression as a teenage male. I wonder if the depression I experienced was the direct result of me using/overusing the part of my brain associated with the production of pleasurable feelings? Was I the (unwitting) author of my own pain?
Hi,
My apologies in advance for posting such a long-winded and incoherent message.
I am not sure where to start my limerence story. I am 40+ year-old closeted gay, living a happy and content life. I don’t have any partners and I have been living single. One fine morning in April or May this year, I stepped out of my flat to get a coffee from a near-by café, and on my way to the café, I saw a gorgeous-looking young man, who appeared to be in his early 20s, go past me. I thought to myself how charming that guy was(I refer to him as Mr.Charming in this post). Then I returned home with my coffee, joined work calls on laptop, and I completely forgot about the guy. So, there was hardly any recollection of that guy from that point onwards. After about two weeks, I again went to get my morning coffee from the same café, and I happened to see the same Mr. Charming and this time from up close. I found him even more handsome and charming than the first time. Like the first time, I returned home, enjoyed my coffee and got busy with remote calls while working from home. I did not think about that guy at all for next few weeks. I had absolutely no idea who he was, where he worked, where he lived, of what heritage he was etc.
In June, I went overseas for 3 weeks; and upon my return, I was busy looking for a new job. Around mid-August, I had two job offers – one with company A and another one with company B. I was all in on joining the company B, but there was a last minute change of heart. And, I ended up joining company A because that office location is just across the road for me. On my first day at work, there was a series of introductory meetings. I was attending one such meeting and, for some reason, just peeped out from the glass wall in the meeting room and I saw a glimpse of Mr. Charming walking past the meeting room. My initial reflect was that it was a figment of my imagination. Maybe I was under some illusion and, surely, that could not be Mr. Charming. I did not see the guy for next few days. So far so good. After a week or so, I happened to see the guy from about 8-10 metres and this time there was no doubt, it was Mr.Charming.
I was staggered by this coincidence that the guy I saw on the street was going to be my colleague and sat on the same level as I was. Not sure if it was some sort of premonition or clairvoyance, I wanted to avoid bumping into Mr.Charming just in case I get too fascinated by him. At that point, I hardly knew a word such as “limerence” existed in the dictionary. Unwittingly, I went too hard and too soon. At all costs, I wanted to avoid any potential repeat of obsession that I had experienced with a couple of other guys more than 10 years ago. So, I started avoiding any contact or chance encounter with this person. Up to this point, I was in total control of myself. After a week or so, I started experiencing early symptoms of Limerence. As days rolled on, I continued to avoid this guy, but it was getting increasingly difficult for me to stop thinking about him. To add to my woes, I happened to bump into this guy on a Sunday while I was out for shopping. On one other occasion, when I was returning home from a daylong visit to a different site, out of reflex, I looked at the entrance of our office (because the office was enroute to my home), guess what? I saw Mr.Charming out of the office. With each sighting of him, my limerence level kept rising. After a week or so, this guy was away from work for a few days and hence there was no distraction for me. However, a part of me was missing his absence – so much so that upon his return to work after a week, as soon as I saw him, my heart throbbed so fast as if I had a heavy dose of caffeine. That was the first time I experienced how strong the phenomenon of limerence I was sucked into.
That was the first time I realised how deeply I was into the state of limerence. With each passing day, my obsession kept growing and now my sleep was getting affected. I started waking up at 3 am or 4 am and found difficult to go back to sleep. Through out this time, I remained avoiding my LO, and I did not have a single direct encounter wherein we faced each other. Around this time in early October, I sensed that my LO observed I was avoiding him as there were two awkward moments when I turned my eyes away from him — to the point of being construed as a rude prick. In mid-October, to my utter consternation, the mother of all coincidences occurred. The LO’s job role was changed and as part of his new role, he had to move his work location. Incredulously, his new desk was just next to mine and our desks were such that we face each other while working. This was the final straw that broke camel’s back. While I could avoid eye contact and chance meetings while he was sitting a few desks aways, from mid-October onwards that was untenable and I had no where to hide. So, I started greeting him “good morning” and “good bye” and he reciprocated and vice-versa. In the last two months since he moved his desk, he has been looking at me at times as if to suggest why I don’t go beyond greetings. Whole of this period, I never had any romantic or sexual fantasies involving my LO. But what is undeniable is that I am profoundly in limerence with him and I am still in awe of his gorgeous looks. And I also have a strong belief that he is straight and has a girl friend. What is more, I gathered that Mr.Charming has the same heritage (racial origin) as that of mine.
With this background, I don’t know what to do. My limerence and fascination with this guy is untenable – not just in terms of realism, but from moralistic angle as well. On any criterion — age, sexual orientation, physical appearance — there was hardly any match between us. So, having any relationship with this guy was never on my mind. So that baffles me even more why I continue to suffer from this malignant influence of limerence. I am like a dog that chases a car. So, I don’t know if that guy does start speaking to me, what I am going to do.
For the first few weeks after this guy relocated to my opposite desk, my limerence seemed to have faded — at least, that is what I thought. But I was patently wrong: my sleep patterns have changed in last two months or so. I have been waking up too early and finding it difficult to return to sleep again. With no romantic urge or sexual gratification of any sort, I just don’t see what is the point of my limerence?
In a way, I brought this upon myself. I always had the hubris that emotionally I was so balanced that nothing could faze me as I have always been good at moving on from unpleasant or painful episodes due to my varied interests in sports, music, literature, politics etc. The events in the last three months have shone a light on how vulnerable (emotionally) I had always been, and thoughts on a complete stranger could render me this helpless. I always thought relationships were never my thing and I still firmly believe that I have no interest in pursuing a relationship — even with Mr. Charming. That is why all this suffering feels completely pointless.
Welcome back, Wilde2011!
I read your post and kept thinking, “Why is this story so familiar?” Then I found your old post from last time. I’ll include a link because I suspect that you aren’t comfortable navigating the site, yet.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/how-to-get-rid-of-limerence/#comment-48337
It sounds like you are still suffering through your LE. I’m sorry that you’re struggling. I noticed that you feel confused about why this would happen to you. I’m sorry, but a lot of our LEs just don’t make sense. The LEs that stand out to me right now are that we’ve had a few straight women develop limerence for women. Those ladies feel very confused about why they developed limerence and I share their confusion. Limerence just doesn’t make sense sometimes.
I’m sorry that I’m not very helpful. I hope you find comfort somehow.