There’s a lot of moral philosophising going on at the moment, so naturally I thought I should have a go.
The stimulus for this particular topic is the coincidence of a number of recent comments and emails from spouses whose lives have been upended by limerence. The striking thing was that the foundation was similar in all cases (their partner has become limerent for someone else), but the outcomes were wildly different. Even more striking for me was that my emotional response to reading these stories was also wildly different, as was my “moral impulse” on how to interpret the events.
To illustrate this, here are four cases of married men who become limerent for a co-worker. These are the bare facts of each case in terms of what happened, how the man responded, how his wife responded, and what my moral impulse was on hearing the situation.
Case 1:
- Man embarks on affair with LO
- Man is apologetic to wife, expresses contrition, says he wishes it hadn’t happened, but feels incapable of self-control
- Wife is determined to make the marriage work and ready to forgive
- Moral impulse: man has weak character
Case 2:
- Man embarks on affair with LO
- Man aggressively devalues wife and abandons his family
- Wife is devastated, but wants to salvage the marriage if she can
- Moral impulse: man has thoroughly bad character
Case 3:
- Man keeps his limerence secret from LO
- Man is dismissive, uncooperative and moody, and refuses to acknowledge the problem
- Wife is worried about her marriage and her husband’s mental health
- Moral impulse: man has weak character
Case 4:
- Man keeps his limerence secret from LO
- Man confesses to his wife, apologises for his emotional unavailability, and wants to talk about the future
- Wife is angry, and aggressively confronts (oblivious) LO blaming her for the situation
- Moral impulse: wife has bad character
These are obviously highly abbreviated summaries – partly to de-personalise them and save people embarrassment, but also because it’s useful to get to the core point of where moral impulses come from.
Can we feasibly reach sound moral judgment with minimal information, or is it all about the nuance? Should we even be framing this in terms of morality, or should it be more about breach of contract? Is a general moral framework a useful tool, or will this always be a case-by-case balancing act? Should we be assigning blame and weighing the magnitude of that blame? Where does forgiveness come in, and is there a line at which we say: there’s no coming back from this?
Obviously, there are no easy answers to these questions – and to be honest, I’m not even going to make the attempt.
Most of us make quick moral judgements based on emotional intuition, but I want to ruminate on the value of analysing your intuitions, where they come from, and how you can use them to make decisions about what purposeful action to take.
Rules of thumb
A good starting point would be to consider some rules of thumb – simplifying principles that help clarify the situation. One such example would be “your thoughts are your own, your actions are what matter.” I’ve summarised this before as “thoughtcrime is a poisonous idea.” With this rule of thumb, cases 1 and 2 above are morally culpable (affair with LO) whereas cases 3 and 4 are not (secret limerence). That said, clearly the behaviour of the limerent towards their wives in cases 2 and 3 is an important action that causes harm. Even more tricky, in case 3 it’s behavioural inaction that’s the problem.
Another rule of thumb could be “everyone deserves a second chance.” I think most of us could sympathise with this for cases 1 and 4, but not case 2. Case 3 is more of a grey area – when does refusal to take action become actively exhausting your chances?
Rules of thumb can obviously be useful, especially for simple cases, but they do often seem to fail the “yeah, but what about…” test.
Have vows been broken?
Infidelity is an obvious breach of the wedding vows. Cases 1 and 2 fail automatically. The vows also include the promise to love, honour and cherish [or similar wordings], so case 3 could also fail. But what about Case 4? Does “forsaking all others” include becoming infatuated with another? How does “for better, for worse” fit in to this assessment? Does that imply forgiveness is required for the husbands in all cases? Do some vows have priority over others?
In fact, there are lots of muddles here: the wife in case 4 hasn’t kept to the spirit of her vows either – her husband reached out for help and was rebuffed. You may think her anger was understandable if she felt betrayed, but does that absolve her of her commitment to love, honour and cherish?
Assignment of blame
Another way to approach this issue is to try and weigh the culpability of the people involved. Cases 1 and 2 have clear breaches of trust, but case 1 has shown contrition – does that mitigate? What about the behaviour of the limerent objects in each scenario. We don’t know that information (and it would be hard to get), but would it make a difference to how blameworthy the husband is if the LO was actively pursuing them and seducing them? Most people would say that the husband in case 2 deserves more opprobrium than in case 1, but does it actually matter when the fundamental betrayal is the same?
A simpler approach is to categorise people into two classes: good or bad. In this framework the villains are: Man, Man, Man, Woman, in our case studies. Sorted.
That kind of moral certainty seems to be de rigueur at the moment, although the classes are often instead cast around power. So, oppressed=good, oppressor=bad. Or, powerless=good, powerful=bad. That gets even simpler when we assign individuals into groups based on immutable characteristics or religious or political beliefs rather than doing the hard work of understanding their motives and personal history. What an orderly world. We can assign blame to the groups and sidestep all deliberation – a strategy that has certainly never gone disastrously, murderously wrong in the past.
Assessment of harm
A fourth approach is to assess the harm caused by the limerent and weigh that in moral balance. If the wife is relatively sanguine about the betrayal, does that mean it is less of a moral transgression? If the limerent is contrite and that serves to partially lessen the pain felt by his wife, does that matter? Does the fact that the wife in case 4 felt a much stronger sense of betrayal than the wife in case 1, despite the absence of infidelity, mean that her husband is more morally compromised? Does the emotional resilience of the wife alter the moral calculus?
This comes down to a really thorny moral conundrum, which has also been somewhat upended recently. How much does intent matter? If the person affected by the betrayal is devastated, is that an aggravating factor?
We can think of some simple cases – if you cause deliberate harm, most people would agree that is worse than causing accidental harm. But what about harm that is caused by thoughtlessness or ignorance? Should we hold people to a reasonable standard of how predictable the harms caused by their behaviour would be? In fact, that is a major foundation of most legal systems. We most of us do this naturally – mentally weighing whether we think the limerent’s behaviour was reasonable, and whether their wife’s response was also reasonable. But that is where we can easily get bogged down in problems of who defines “reasonable”.
A counter view is summarised by the modern phrase “intent isn’t magic”. This view posits that it is everyone’s moral obligation to anticipate how their actions may harm others. If harm is caused, then a moral transgression has occurred, regardless of the actor’s intent. Ignorance of the consequences of your actions is no excuse. So, in case 4 the limerent is morally responsible for the pain his wife suffered, even if he thinks her reaction is disproportionate. Again, this is usually framed in terms of power imbalances – if you are more privileged then you have additional responsibility to understand how your action could affect the less privileged.
Finding balance
This is a highly contentious and inflammatory topic. Is there a way to pick our way through the minefield of disagreements and take purposeful action? Here’s the route I suggest:
The civil and criminal justice systems have to balance all the views of all members of society and reach a consensus of what the average reasonable person would consider just. That results in years of social debate and democratic wrangling and judicial review to find an acceptable compromise that constitutes the law. Fortunately, we don’t need to take such a broad approach. There are only two parties that matter in a marriage.
The starting point for reconciliation is for both spouses to decide on what they consider reasonable behaviour. Then, they can make a comparison of their two perspectives and decide whether they can be harmonised. This might involve checking for double standards (e.g. you should be faithful, but should also forgive my infidelities) and checking for special circumstances that might need to be accommodated (e.g. my abandonment anxieties mean I need you to check in with me even if you don’t think it’s necessary). Then, you try and reach an agreement about behavioural guidelines that you’ll both adhere to.
This helps clarify many issues: if your spouse won’t even engage with the process of discussion, you cannot make progress. If you hit an irreconcilable difference, then you may have to admit defeat. If someone repeatedly breaks the spirit of the agreement, then you have a dishonest actor.
This approach helps properly orientate the discussion to a partnership of equals, as a healthy marriage should be. The opinions of other people, the moral panics of the moment, and the “what everyone else thinks” standard can be discarded. It’s a simplification that can allow forward progress, even if it doesn’t make the emotional labour any easier.
Good luck to all those going through this.
My wife and I nearly separated (yet again) earlier this week. It all started when she began asking me some deeply uncomfortable questions about my feelings for her, and I confided in her that, while I love her, I feel that the “spark” is gone in our marriage and the love I feel for her at this point is more like love for a family member as opposed to a wife or lover. I didn’t want to tell her outright, but she demanded to know. I also told her I am not willing to continue living like this and I believe we need counselling because we can’t seem to solve our problems on our own. At first, she was dead set against it, but she at least seems to agree that we need some help to overcome this (well, she thinks I need the help and the problem is solely mine, which I can kind of understand). The problem is she will not be able to see her part in much of this and how she is bossy, mean, controlling, abusive and manipulative towards me (I and many others recognized this long before my LE, so it isn’t just the limerence talking here). Even though everyone close to her recognizes this, she refuses to see it. My wife and daughter also had a MASSIVE fight again this week, which was extremely disturbing for all of us. Of course, my LO came up in the conversation, but I continued to reiterate that she was only the canary in the coalmine telling me something was wrong in my marriage and life. I still believe that despite my strong feelings for her.
I am torn right now about my own thoughts and actions. I could have been there much more for my wife even through the height of my limerence, but is it my fault? I never set out to have feelings for another woman. I never wanted to lose the “spark” in my marriage, and I always assumed it would be forever. When my LO approached us that night, I never in my wildest dreams believed I would end up becoming infatuated and obsessed with her. These thoughts were entirely involuntary (I know there are things we can do to minimize limerence in our own minds, but it wasn’t like I consciously set out to do this — and why her in the first place?). I understand some of the psychology and brain chemistry around limerence and how it is largely involuntary, but am I somehow culpable? I feel awful about all of it, but can it be excused or at least understood given my situation? Am I a horrible person for no longer feeling the same attraction for my wife (something that predated my limerence)? My wife certainly seems to think so in many respects and she is incredibly sad and deeply hurt by all of this. What about my dreams of ending my marriage, continuing to lose weight and work out to impress my LO, asking her out, dating her and possibly marrying her some day? I know that fantasy is highly unlikely ever to become a reality, but am I morally reprehensible just thinking about it?
While I would be incredibly worried about my wife’s wellbeing and state of mind if we ever separated, I had that feeling of calmness and serenity yet again when divorce and separation were discussed. In some ways, I know deep down it is what I want, but I feel awful about that. I know we need to try, but are things too far gone? Is counselling going to help after several years of serious marital problems? What about the fact that my wife and daughter can’t stand each other? What about money? I even worry about the fact that my wife is Catholic and she might have difficulty remarrying. In some ways, I would really be happy for her if she found someone else, but I would also be extremely sad to lose her. As I mentioned before, I would want to stay in touch and keep all of our shared memories intact, but she completely confirmed it would be scorched earth from her perspective if we ever went our separate ways and we would only ever communicate via text message if we absolutely had to. That really saddens me because I love and care for her. This is so damn hard because the status quo just isn’t good enough, yet the alternative seems so sad and like such a waste. I also can’t help but feel awful for all of the hurt I have caused — even though she had her own part to play and I know deep down we may not be compatible.
You’ve articulated the emotional labour really well, VL. That sense that there’s loss in every direction you look, and yet doing nothing is also unacceptable.
From what you’ve written here and before, it does seem as though your wife is resisting your attempts to change the circumstances. She may occasionally agree to discuss counselling or divorce, but then punishes you with stalling and bullying behaviour until you lose the energy to keep pushing for it. There may be panic or insecurity at the bottom of it for her, but until she can accept that her behavioural response to that fear is unacceptable for you, you can’t make a lot of progress.
It’s good to hold ourselves to high moral standards, and natural to be unsure about how much of a betrayal your feelings for LO are – but this is a case I think where looking to actions is a good way of clarifying things. You became infatuated with LO, which is in contravention of the spirit of your wedding vows, but you responded by trying to resolve your marital difficulties. You didn’t respond by neglecting or disrespecting your wife and daughter and pursuing LO.
It might be worth downloading and reading “Anxiety to Action” if you haven’t already, as that has some tips on how to communicate with stonewalling spouses. It’s written from the assumption that the limerent is the resistant spouse, but of course the communication techniques work regardless.
Good luck, and best wishes. Look after yourself – and your daughter.
Holy crap, man, that sounds terrible. Here’s hoping that the counselling helps you in fixing the problems with your marriage or, at least, gives you the clear headedness to do what you think is right, whatever that might be.
I think you’re dead on calling your LO “the canary in the coalmine”. In the end, I think that’s what limerence is, a symptom of a bigger problem with ourselves, be it deep insecurities, failing relationships or whatever. There was an old blog post where the Dr. compared limerents with drug addicts, and I think that’s a good frame of reference when discussing the morality of limerence. “Love the sinner hate the sin”, if you will.
The crappy thing about real life it’s that there’s not such concept as “good guys” or “bad guys”. Everyone thinks they’re the heroes of their own stories, and their decisions always have some kind moral reasoning behind them. Your wife clearly thinks that she has no blame in your situation, even when it clearly shows that she has some of it. You’re already trying to see things from her perspective, she should try to see things from yours. Assuming your LE never went beyond merely fantasizing about LO, I don’t think you should feel guilty for it.
That’s a really good point. Morality has to develop from a good faith attempt to understand the other person’s point of view.
It sounds like you are taking responsibility for your part in the relationship and that your wife has her own mental issues to work through. It is sad that she doesn’t seem to recognize that especially when her behavior also effects her relationship with your daughter.
I consider myself a moral person, a recovering limerent, and I never set out to become limerent and desire to be rid of this experience forever. I am happily married and the current LE was set into motion over 2 years ago as a coping mechanism. That could be what is going on with you as well. It helped me a lot to know that I was seeking solace in an imaginary relationship and that it wasn’t the LO’s real personality that was affecting me. These facts helped me realize I was just using the LO to feel better about my job circumstances and my low self-esteem. It all back-fired because it actually ended up making me feel worse about myself because I love my husband and he loves me.
If your wife doesn’t consent to counseling I think you should still go yourself. Not because you are “the problem” in the marriage but because it would probably help you to talk to someone and get insight to yourself for a better future whether you are still married or not. I have not had anyone to really discuss limerence with and it really would have made the process easier if I could have vented and just been honest with someone without fear of judgment.
What about a temporary separation? What about having talking dates where you set aside time to address specific issues? Suggestions only. I am not a counselor but maybe the situation needs to defuse before progress can be made. Maybe divorce is not the answer right now but smaller steps should be taken. I know that it is difficult because we all want to be happy right NOW.
Thanks everyone for your kind words and suggestions! It definitely will be challenging over the coming weeks and months, but at least I think we know what we need to do. My wife and I are both a little worried about counselling I think (I am mostly worried about the conflict that will likely ensue), but we need to do something different to break the stalemate. Our relationship and family life aren’t working as they are currently constituted, and some change is desperately needed. I also know that I may need to have the courage to face some unpleasantness now for the sake of a better future.
I’m in a case of mutual limerence with friend. Both married. He wanted PA, I wanted NC (just facts, I don’t want to sound superior or whatever).
But, I still feel incredible guilt. I can’t disclose to SO, he has a problem with low self esteem and jealousy. I still miss LO like crazy. It feels also like a betrail. So, I think I’m kind of immoral person.
You sound more like a saint to me.
You can’t help miss LO, that’s nature.
Bravo that you want NC. Very mature and the opposite of immoral!
Feelings are never right or wrong, they are just feelings, not to be judged. That’s like judging nature. Doesn’t make sense.
It’s our behaviour that we can judge in “good” or “bad” if you want, and you are being very respectful!
Thanks, Mia, you’re very kind. But my actions weren’t saintful, so to speak. I didn’t do anything to slow down when I’ve noticed the glimmer. I haven’t cut our conversation when he disclosed. Than, even worse, I disclosed to LO. Stupid, stupid mistake. In LOs eyes, I’m sort of narc. Maybe I’m, I don’t know enough about the question. I certainly enjoy a lot in his atention and affection. But still, I’m feeling such a shame because of SO, and I’m not proud of myself at all.
I wish you where though. Not to dismiss you feeling guilty, but you do seem a little hard on yourself. You could have done way way way “worse”.
Self compassion is needed when beating limerence. We are human we have feelings and sometimes we follow our feelings. It’s hard not to.
I had a full blown Pa when I was still married. I’m not proud of that but it doesn’t make me a bad person overall. I learned from it. I will try to do things differently next time.
It’s hard enough to struggle with limerence I hope you will struggle less with the guilt. I think you are very strong.
I agree with Mia. Your desire to go NC shows that you are fighting this, trying to do the right thing. Feelings happen, what your actions are is what matters. It’s a slippery slope and you are putting an end to it!
I concur. You can’t choose what you are going to feel (boy do limerents learn that lesson), but you can choose how you respond to your feelings.
Definitely reflect on what you might have done to reinforce the limerence, so you can learn what not to do next time, but your actions are what matter when it comes to outcomes.
@Dr Limerence. I agree with you about learning lessons of previous LEs can factor into how you approach future LEs. While my feelings about LO4 are different than my previous LOs, one of the reasons that the severity of my limerence for them took as long to materialize after the glimmer was down to me controlling my feelings; mitigating circumstances played a role certainly, but it primarily due to me recognizing it for what it was and resisting the limerent urges.
Unfortunately, that resistance lasted for only so long, and soon I became prisoner to my limerence, hence why I find myself in the midst of grappling with LO4’s departure and being thrown into emotional turmoil. I can be proud, however, no matter how much emotional hurt I’m experiencing, that I was able to resist the limerence as long as I did and it offers hope that I can do so going forward … unless of course LO4 remains my LO in the coming months, even after their departure, despite my desire to lose my limerence for them and to build a proper friendship with them.
I’m sorry if this isn’t the right place to post this, but really struggling with all consuming guilt and not sure where to turn. I read the posts on the site regularly, but have never got up the courage to post anything and am really looking for some help. I became completely uncontrollably limerant for a colleague, who I never thought would be interested in me. We were friends at work and talked about problems in our relationships as we seemed to be in similar situations. He then disclosed he had feelings for me and this led to a long period of complete and utter obsession, which was one of the most confusing and disturbing experiences I’ve ever had. I’ve been with my SO for just over ten years and had been feeling quite low and lonely and then my LO came along and everything I would have sworn I would never do whilst in a relationship seemed to somehow be reasoned out by the overwhelming excitement of feeling wanted, attractive and important. I would speak to my LO on the phone, meet up in secret and we would text each other a lot and he would tell me how if we were together everything would be so happy and perfect. Every day when I got ready all I’d care about is what he would think of how I look, he would be the first thing I thought of in the morning and the last thing at night and I frequently risked getting in trouble at work to spend time with him. I have embarrassed myself by behaving in this way in front of coworkers and friends and have completely betrayed my morals and my SO. I think judging by his obsessive behaviour my LO felt the same, which only fuelled things more. I realised that a lot of my obsession was actually based on the fantasy situation and not the reality and was an escape from feeling lonely and down. I tried to go NC multiple times due to guilt but always caved in as he would constantly try to contact me. I have now been NC for around three months and can see things so much clearer but am overwhelmed with guilt as it becomes clearer how much my SO cares about me and how much I love him. This whole thing made me very distant from him and somehow I felt like because he wasn’t around much and didn’t show much attention that it was almost justified which I know is so wrong and now some of the feelings have settled I can see how wrong and cruel this reasoning is. I feel like I’ve ruined everything and don’t know how to come to terms with it. I’m so sorry for this long post but I can’t talk to anyone in my life and this site means such a lot to me. I can’t tell my SO about all this as I know it would be the end of our relationship but I can’t live with myself for how I’ve acted and the guilt of it all.
Hi Sophie, and welcome. Sorry to hear what you are going through.
Yes, this is a “between a rock and a hard place” situation. If you try to “put this behind you” and get back to normal with your SO, then you are potentially living with an unexploded bomb under your relationship. If this comes out a few years in the future, would your SO feel more or less betrayed? (that’s a genuine question, by the way, as people would react differently). Alternatively, if you are just trying to expunge your overwhelming guilt at the moment by confessing, is that a selfish act? This is another moral conundrum that good people can disagree on.
My usual default in this scenario is that truth is the safest option. It may not lead to the most comfortable or desirable outcome for you, but it means that your SO knows the truth of their life and that they get to make an informed choice. It also makes a big difference if you freely confess what you have done, rather than having your SO find out from a co-worker or gossipy friend.
I suppose another way of looking at this is as a chance to establish a new level of openness with your SO. The reason you were vulnerable to a predatory LO is because of that period of loneliness and stasis. Unfortunately, many of us only get jolted out of stale complacency by the arrival of limerence, when we would have been much better advised to have been more communicative and active with our SOs before the vulnerability had developed. Having an honest and frank talk about what’s happened and what you want to happen next, and what your SO thinks about the situation (his response may surprise you – especially if it was not a physical affair) and what he wants for your future, is a constructive way to “use” the disaster of limerence to make a positive change.
I’m not saying that disclosure is always a good idea (see case study 4). I’m not saying you should disclose every last painful detail of how flipped out over LO you were. But being honest with your partner is always a more purposeful way to approach any relationship in my view.
“it is everyone’s moral obligation to anticipate how their actions may harm others”. This statement from your blog, Dr. L, is what makes it so hard to forgive ourselves (get what you are saying, Sophie!). Morally, it harms others. I’m on the other side and well into NC, but I’m having a struggle with the guilt, forgiving myself for letting everyone down.
I knew when I first met LO that it would be trouble and over the slo-mo unfolding of the coming years — yes, it was. I’ve learned so much from this blog about purposeful living, and I’m hoping to get to the point I can move on without too much baggage from this. Hate that I couldn’t (wouldn’t) stop it even while knowing it was not headed to a good place. Hard day today apparently. Thoughts are less and lighter – NC really works. Being INFJ always working on the purposeful living! 🙂
That quote doesn’t really capture my personal view, RIHL – but it is a commonly articulated position. My problem with it is the scope for abuse; indeed it’s often used by abusers to confound their victims (you’ve upset me, so you’re a bad person).
My ah-ha moment was to realise that I felt a different quality of guilt when I had breached my own moral code. The guilt of unexpectedly upsetting someone is different from the guilt of knowingly, selfishly causing upset. It’s good to learn that sometimes our actions hurt others unexpectedly, and we should work on being more considerate, but it’s also important to learn that others can make unreasonable demands.
Luckily my sweet SO is not making me feel guilty — all me — but I see your point. The guilt comes from so much: strong feelings, violation of beliefs, loss on many levels. This whole situation makes me feel so sad everytime I think of it even though it didn’t, and most likely wouldn’t have, gone far. Beats obsession and fantasy, eh?
Sophie,
Have you read:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/2019/02/02/why-do-limerents-feel-guilty/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/2018/03/04/should-limerents-feel-guilty-about-their-limerence/
If you do a search for “guilty” on the main blog page, you’ll get more hits.
I can’t really relate to this one, but it does raise an interesting philosophical argument on the definition of right and wrong.
I’m just commenting because today is the 2yr anniversary of the start of my LE. Yay. I have survived 2 years. 2 YEARS. I can’t really measure the end, as it may end when I am not in contact, so I will just say it has ended when I see her and don’t feel anything (hopefully). For now, it’s been 2 years (731 days).
Congrats, man! Every day that passes where you resist the impulses of your limerent brain will always be a small victory for you. One day you’ll look back at this and all will seem like a very stupid fever dream.
Dr Limerence, this is a certainly an interesting topic you’ve raised in this post. I think the morality issue can also extend to people who aren’t in relationships too. With all four LEs so far, I’ve been confronted with the morality about whether or not it’s appropriate to feel the intense and obsessive feelings I’ve had for them; if it was right to stage encounters with them even though all of them weren’t creepy or stalkerish, or the dilemma in expressing the extent of my limerent feelings for them?
After LO3’s rejection, there was for a brief time, when my limerence for them had faded but before I moved, that I was sorely tempted to tell the truth about my feelings, about what I had made me ask them for their number in the first place. However, I felt that it was better to let sleeping dogs lie and not to cause any more drama than was needed, but there was definitely a level or morality being raised of: Maintain the status quo and they live without knowing what happened or tell the truth and risk complicating things beyond all recognition? I’m glad that my common sense told me to keep my mouth shut for both them and the other LOs.
There’s also another element that needs considering – what other people does your limerence affect, i.e., is it triggering severe mood swings or physical symptoms that are harming your relationships with friends/family? Every one of my LEs have triggered these emotional rollercoasters and physical symptoms at some point – I’ve been extremely lucky, however, to have been able to come up with a story that has explained away my problems at the time, but that isn’t to say, such as my irritibility or downers, haven’t caused friction with the people I know. Yet, morally, telling them the truth I believe, would have been worse, as they wouldn’t have understood my limerence, damaging my relationships with them, whereas morally, it may not have been right telling a lie, but long-term, has maintained those relationships.
I guess the moral aspect depends on whether the LO is free too. If they are, then there is the usual delicacies needed (e.g. professional or educational connection), but otherwise no issue in assessing their interest. If they rebuff you, then there’s not a lot of good to be gained from disclosing your limerence – it’ll just make everyone feel awkward.
If they are married, then definitely best to steer clear. Morally, practically, and for your own wellbeing.
I completely agree about whether the limerent or their LO is in a relationship and the other’s single, that’s an issue of morality, particularly if said limerent discloses to their LO or, if they’re the one in a relationship, to their SO, about their limerence. Anything of that nature would be quite the messy situation, regardless of how it worked out.
Speaking from my own experiences, I always felt, even though neither my LOs or I were in relationships when I was limerent for them, there’s always been a question of morality about whether or not my limerence has been appropriate, thoughts of morality that I didn’t have with either of the two romances I’ve had.
I’ve also wondered, even now, whether it was the morally right thing to do to stay silent about my limerence, even though it was in my view as I mentioned above.
What I do think, however, is that there’s definitely a gray line whereby, if the limerent is acting out and their actions are having an adverse effect on anybody who they deeply care about – SO, family member, friend etc – that should they lie about what is truly causing their problems or to tell the truth, especially if their explanations are not believed? My own mood swings have never crossed that boundary, but I do recognize that, had they been far worse and my explanations weren’t believed, morally, in those circumstances, I would have had to tell the truth and face the consequences.
I’m a firm believer that actions are what matters. Actions and Intent. Your thoughts and feelings are an internal whiteboard. A sandbox. They’re where you work out what you’re going to do, because that’s what matters.
I somewhat agree that indeed “Intent isn’t magic”, but only inasmuch as it doesn’t absolve you from responsibility. I very much disagree with interpretations where intent is sidelined and only results are judged. Intent still matters, or should, when considering the repercussions and moral judgement of a choice or action… When it comes down to it, morality is only “what do you do when you have to choose between considerations for others and consideration for self”? In that situation, Intent is of primary importance because your intent is the choice you made. Any inadvertent results, while still your responsibility as they are a result of your actions, do not change whether the choice / action was a moral one at the time you made it.
my moral judgements mostly line up with yours Dr. L
case 1: the “incapable of self control” pronouncement is the part I can’t get past. I view that as weak character, although I admit that is very much lacking the full context of the story.
case 2: again lacking full context, this guy just seems like a choad.
case 3: I’m torn on this guy, and whether he’s really uncooperative, or just still in the midst of working through his own issues. I feel shades of this one. I have never disclosed to LO or SO because, as I said at the top, my thoughts are my own. I have context where it’s super not appropriate to disclose to LO (if it ever is), and where not disclosing to SO is (I like to believe) motivated by concern for her low self esteem (which pre-dates me. I didn’t do it) and the desire to not bring extra conflict into a life that’s already full of stress. I’m supporting my SO through all her mental anguish, but don’t really feel the ability to ask her support through mine, since it would just add to hers. I’ve come out the other side of months of agony over this with the conclusion that, for now, this is still the best choice. It certainly is not easy.
case 4: I can understand how certain SOs could easily take disclosure of a LE and go over the top with the response, but direct it externally. Some people may prefer to believe that it has to be a third party causing the rift in their relationship, that it couldn’t have been a problem internal to their relationship and the LO an innocent (or mostly innocent) bystander. If the problems causing an LE were internal to the existing relationship, that could imply that they (the SO) might be partially responsible. The wife here sounds like she may fit that bill. (please note that the counterpoint of my comments on case 4 vs my comments on case 3 are not lost on me. My wife and I know we have problems like any couple, but we love each other fiercely and are working on them with help)
Yeah, intent is a complex issue. I personally agree that it’s critically important, because I look on social life as a co-operative endeavour – i.e. in the case of disagreement, both people should be respected when it comes to reaching an understanding. Intent really does matter from that perspective, as no-one has a monopoly on what is reasonable.
Where it gets difficult is when one actor is acting in bad faith – with the classic example being “it was just a joke,” as a generic exemption of responsibility.
The problem is, sometimes it is just a joke, and the other person actually is being hypersensitive or acting in bad faith themselves.
I guess that’s why legal systems get so big and so complicated so quickly.
I am brand new to this forum, and my head is spinning from my husband’s limerance. It went on for a long time- years, and was hidden during that time. It was not at all mutual, but when he finally confessed that he cared for someone else, he VERY much portrayed it as not only mutual, but being the LO’s fault because she was nice to him— actually she was only every cordial, never interacting with him in any personal way.
My husband used the time that he was limerant (and I never knew she even worked with him), to rewrite the history of our marriage and determine that I was to blame for his feelings. It’s noteworthy that he blamed her too, because he told me she that encouraged this “relationship “. I did confront her, not in an angry , hateful way, but in a “what is going on” way. In a “He says you giving attention to him made him believe you two are in love ? Who are you? I’ve never heard of you,” way. She was clueless. He then confessed to her that he was having all these thoughts of her (Guess what, he apologized to her because, he said, his wife misunderstood and overreacted. BUT I DIDNT. I SIMPLY REPEATED WHAT HE SAID—THAT THEY WERE IN LOVE AND SHE WOULDN’T ACT ON IT ONLY BECAUSE HE WAS MARRIED.) She was appalled and reported him. She avoids him like the plague., but they still work together. He blames me for making things awkward for both of them. I didn’t mean to handle it wrong. He told me she wanted to be with him too, and this was first time to ever have anything like this happen. I didn’t know what to do. He portrayed her as a “silent home wrecker”—in love with him, but too good a person to take his kids and wife from him, because that’s what he chose to make her in his mind.
He was so convincing in his story to me that I was despondent, and my kids told him they were worried about my sanity. He continued to think he loved her. He moved out. He continued to think he loved her. We sought therapy and he was forced to examine that they had no real relationship . He continued to profess feelings. He told the therapist things like “She was a quiet, but caring person. If she hadn’t opened up to me, this wouldn’t have happened (She didn’t, obviously), or “If we hadn’t made a great team, I wouldn’t have fallen for her (They barely spoke.)
I don’t want to be the wife in case no. 4. I can’t feel too bad if I was, however, because he blamed her. I sided with him, trying to protect my marriage, because I believed him when he said she SUBTLY pursued him by expressing respect and appreciation.
He is the husband in no. 3, as he continues to blame me for “ not getting past it”, while he refuses to go to counseling. One therapist told me I couldn’t leave him, because my vows included for better and worse, and to show compassion, and I have. I want him to do the work to recognize the signs, so we never have this happen again. He wants, pretty much insists, that we never discuss it and for me to “ get my act together and move past it”. When I tell him I am hurt, he says it’s because I chose to be. He loves me, he says. He says I didn’t make him feel special enough. I didn’t “build him up” enough. He says that now, not ever before he met her.
We talked this morning about moving forward, and he told me that he see a marriage counselor (This would be the third one.), but only so he could help me figure out why I am making a big deal of this. I told them I would, but I asked him to start IC too. He refused. He said I needed to go. I agreed that I’d go too . We could both do IC. He said I was trying to make him look bad, and I was ‘tricking’ him. I BEGGED( not my finest moment, but those have been few and far between lately) him to try to save our marriage, and he told me that that he would rather get divorced than be embarrassed by a counselor. He told me he was done. He told that he caused the problem, but my reaction to “no big deal” was why he would throw everything away, that my nagging was why he would be forced to walk away from our home and kids. I never knew any of this was going on in his head. I never knew she even worked there. He had known her for seven years, before I ever heard her name, and the way he introduced me to her was in a panicked “I’m in love with someone else. I’ve loved you longer and more, but I love her too.” He has never kissed her, held her hand, eaten a meal, or had a real conversation with her. What a waste of a marriage and two people’s’ lives( not yo mention our children), all so he could feel good about himself. Morally responsible? Weak character? Whatever he cause, there is a wife and a family destroyed, with who to blame? Not me. Certainly not her. Maybe not him? I’m not sure what his culpability is all this. He doesn’t really think he has any. He says all men are just attracted to women, and since he didn’t touch her, he didn’t do anything wrong.
He’s not giving you a lot to work with is he?
You can’t force someone to go for counselling, and it would be futile anyway if they are not engaged, but putting embarrassment above marriage is really weak.
And you’re not being the wife in case 4, Carole (literally, or metaphorically). It’s one thing to unwittingly assume there must have been something and confront the LO, it’s another to turn up at work unannounced and start screaming at a stranger.
For clarification’s sake – case 4 was related to me by the limerent husband, not the angry wife, so adjust assumptions accordingly.
I wasn’t saying that I was the wife in no. 4, just that I do feel guilty about confronting the unsuspecting poor LO. I did, however, just to be clear, only confront by phone, not by showing up and screaming. Not that it really matters but in the spirit of levity, I could only imagine if I’d caused an actual row at his workplace acting like a lunatic, with her wondering who this strange, irrational woman was and her bewilderment at being involved with TWO “crazy” people she didn’t know.
I’m lucky I had a space of 20 years between L01/LO2 and current LO3. It probably saved my marriage. That was a lot of time to grow up. I thought a lot about how I acted around them, how I failed to see their faults, and all the fantasies I had. Imaging every polite smile as a small sign of flirtation, convincing myself that it was fine to chat with them all the time, making excuses for how they never seemed to want to engage with me, and driving past their houses all the time (I was lucky I had close friends in their neighborhoods, so it wasn’t too suspicious). I especially had the time to consider just how (pardon my saying this) non-sexual my feelings were towards them… I never once *a-hem* had a masturbatory fantasy about either LO1 or LO2 (or LO3).
So when the current LO3 rolled around at 47 years old, I had all the tools in my toolbox to know what was happening.
But good Lord, how POWERFUL the feeling of yearning was!!! Cognitively I knew what was happening, I knew why it was happening (LO3 was the same physical type as 1 and 2), I knew it was all a fantasy, and I knew the dire consequences of ever acting on it. I constantly was reminding myself this, plus that I didn’t know her and she was half my age, and I would be fired if I so much as made some idiot excuse to come into physical contact with her. Plus, I knew my wife was fine, I reminded myself that she is my bedrock, and I knew my life would be a total disaster without her.
But even despite all this cognitive effort – whew… the emotional pull towards LO3 was incredible! I was always stopping myself from following through on my idiot plans to strike up a conversation with her, or talk to her at her desk, or running into her in the halls. But the desire to make these ridiculous plans was still just so IMMENSE. When I left the company, I was heartbroken that I wouldn’t see her anymore.
So there’ll never be any judgement from me, folks. It was hard for me to want to pay attention to my wife through all of this, but I really tried my best to maintain normalcy in our marriage.
But funny enough, talking about not following through on idiot plans to make physical contact with her (socially appropriately, of course, like just brushing up against her), I think she tried to do it once with me, and this isn’t my limerence speaking. I was at the sink in the office kitchen, washing my hands. She walked right up next to me, never saying a word (we were the only two there), and in a major violation of personal space stood a few inches from me and reached right over my head to get to the cabinet above the sink. I had to duck down to keep from making physical contact with her. And then she started rummaging through the cabinet, inching closer to me, and I kept having to inch out of the way because I wasn’t finished washing my hands. She kept getting closer, and I kept moving a little further each time, again neither of us ever saying a word or even looking at each other, until I was bent over as far as I could go with my arms completely stretched out to the max. Finally, I got the soap off my hands and got out of there. But we must have looked ridiculous, like we were in a circus act or something. It was that kind of behavior from her that makes me htink I could have been her LO.
And it’s a big reason why she became my LO, because I kept seeing signs of interest from this young woman until I couldn’t resist it anymore.
It’s useful to be able to look back on these moments and see how absurd they were, isn’t it? Did she not even offer an “excuse me,” or “sorry”?
Usually in an English office there’d have been half a dozen apologies each by the end of that fiasco 🙂
She didn’t say a word, and I didn’t say a word to her. All completely silent… we’re both introverted. Later I started looking at the “personal space” boundaries few coworkers, just to see if it was my limerence making me think she was trying to get close to me. Nobody was comfortable getting within two feet of anybody else. Even LO3 stayed her distance from all the other men and women in the office. But this one crazy time she was almost falling on top of me, when the normal reaction would have been simply to wait 45 seconds until the person was done at the sink.
Ha – that’s a very amusing story Matt (maybe not for you). Again, similar experience for me with the 25 year old who wants to get drunk after lockdown. Last year at a party we host for clients, she came over to rescue me from talking to this boring old guy. We then start talking and during the course of the conversation our hands end up touching 6 or 7 times! It was loud in there so you had to lean in a bit to talk, but with everyone else I managed to do so without touching their hands!! Can only think it was deliberate on her part.
We have photographers at these events and there’s a pic of her from that night seemingly finding something I’ve said utterly hilarious too. Again, pretty sure I’m not normally that funny…
Subtle ways to get in our heads and signal intent with room for plausible deniability if needed I guess.
@vincent I’ve said it a few times… it’s almost a curse that as we men get older, it becomes very easy to recognize the signs of flirtation from younger women, especially because they do it without knowing they’re doing it. And it is so flattering to have a woman half your age flirt with you. It is such an ego boost. It is so validating, it makes us feel young and vibrant. It’s a curse because their youth makes them look beautiful in ways we never appreciated as younger men.
And this is why I became trapped in my current LE. I had no interest until I started recognizing the signs of interest from her. She reminded me physically of my two youthful LEs 20 years earlier, and it made something clicked in my reptilian brain: “I can have now what I couldn’t have when I was younger.” Her personality is a closer match to mine, which only drew me in tighter.
It’s funny… my conversation in my head was, “Just because a woman touches you 7 times in a conversation doesn’t mean that… wait, no, of course she’s obviously flirting with him, duh.”
Matt / Vincent,
It seems you are in situations of mutual limerence? There are clearly signs of interest. May I ask what you are seeking from these interactions? It is just the ego boost? Do you get shown this interest from many people? Is it just the ones you are in LEs/potential LEs with that show interest or is it more common. How can you tell they are flirting with you now that was not as obvious when you were younger. Is all that is stopping you from proceeding will power / a good M? Do you trust yourself if LO actually makes a physical move or would that tip it over the edge.
Hi Butter – very good Qs….
In my case its not an LE, albeit it is a situation that has many similarities to my relationship with LO that ended 18m ago (work, age gap, me “helping her”). Also, as Dr L posted the other week, limerence is very rare, so it is unlikely to be mutual limerence, more likely just attraction or perhaps a crush from her side.
That said – your question is a key one. What am I seeking with these interactions? Nothing really – there’s no plan. I didn’t seek her (or LO) out, they latched onto me. There are a number of young attractive women in my office, and I hardly know most of them. These two in particular engineered a closer relationship in different ways.
Why? The cynic in me would suggest that because I’m in a position of power I would be a useful ally for them, and they need an advocate to progress in their career. Maybe I’m over thinking, maybe they don’t have a plan either. Both have odd relationships with their fathers / stepfathers and perhaps are subconsciously looking for someone older to give them the attention they lacked from them (aka “daddy issues”).
Now I could ignore them, be all Mike Pence about it and refuse to talk to them without my wife being present, but life isn’t like that. I’m an introvert, and someone building a relationship with me is rare, male or female, and I need connection like anyone does. There is certainly a bit of ego boost, I can’t deny that. I’m the wrong side of 40, and there is a very attractive 20 something clearly flirting with me. It feels good, no doubt.
Do I trust myself? Yes, I spent almost 2 years with LO and nothing happened. I didn’t proposition her once and didn’t engineer a situation even though I easily could have. Admittedly she was young and maybe didn’t have the confidence to throw herself at me. What if this new girl made a physical move? I don’t know, I hope I would resist, but what you do in the moment is unpredictable. The key is to avoid being in such a situation in the first place I think.
Hey, Butter. The funny thing with me is after my two very embarrassing LEs 20 years ago, I have this default mindset of, “She’s not flirting with me, you’re only fantasizing that she is.” This is why she was basically falling over me at the sink, and I’m convinced she’s acting normally, even though I clearly know she wasn’t. It was exactly what a 24-year old, extremely introverted person would do to their LO… because I remember trying to break the personal space barrier with my earlier LOs. I was actually a little scared when she was moving towards me because it’s at work, I’m male, and she’s female and half my age. Making physical contact was off limits, which is why I was so stretched out trying to get the soap off my hands. A month before that, I had held the door for her, saying nothing and in fact not even looking at her, as as she walked through I looked up in time to see her shoot me the nastiest look. I could read her thoughts: “This dummy thinks he can flirt with me by holding the door for me.” It must have been automatic for her because she got wide eyed when she realized I had seen her. I don’t know what to make of that incident, but it’s clear I was in her head already somehow. I can only imagine she fantasized about me hitting on her, but I could be wrong.
I’m not seeking anything. I’m married and twice her age, and I’ve seen her one time in the last 10 months because we don’t work together anymore. I’m always dreaming of running into her again, of course.
So how do we know a woman is flirting? Easier to spot it when they’re younger because they don’t realize they’re doing it. They’ll get near to you (proximity, violating personal space), you turn around and they always seem to be there, they’ll “go cold” and completely ignore you at times when they reasonably should be interacting with you, they’ll linger near you (hoping you’ll talk to them), they’ll look down when they walk by you, some of them will get more animated near you (not all), and the big thing is their hand moving up to touch their hair or brush it out of the way. The hair touch thing doesn’t mean a woman “desires a guy,” it more means that she finds him attractive and subconsciously wants to look good for him.
@Matt,
Have you read
https://livingwithlimerence.com/2017/03/01/flirting/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/2018/02/23/flirting-at-work/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/2018/12/09/limerence-for-a-co-worker/
Sharnhorst – From one of Dr. L’s posts… this was exactly my LO.
“Alternatively, is this somebody that is normally a fairly undemonstrative person, who happens to light up when talking with you, and is showing signs of anxiety and/or arousal? (These could be: fidgeting with hair or jewelry, alternating between prolonged eye contact and looking anywhere but at you, laughing nervously, voice shaking, etc.) If so, you may be flirting with a limerent. Tread carefully.”
Completely undemonstrative person, never flirted with anybody in the office, face lighting up the few times we spoke, anxious and voice shaking around me, constantly fidgeting, and one time we found ourselves staring into each other’s eyes from across a room for what seemed like an eternity.
I was flirted with in the office a lot by a few of the more confident and attractive women. I never cared, it was just flirting. My quiet, nervous LO barely said a word to me but did all of this stuff in this paragraph, and she hooked me. I made a conscious effort to never flirt with her, either.
@VIncent re. the why you? Strength, maturity, wisdom and power within a good man are an attractive combination to women of any age….am speaking from experience here. They may have just wanted you for you, not what you could do for them.
Thank you Allie 😊 – I do hope that is the case. At least for my benefit, maybe not their’s as I’m not available.
I had a therapist for the last year and a bit of my relationship with LO, and each week we’d talk about what she said and did. The T felt similarly – that it was clear from her behaviour that she had feelings for me but didn’t know what to do with them. LO’s friend told me similar one evening too.
Thanks all for your insights on these points. It’s interesting to hear these stories and different perspectives. I agree with Allie. And in general, it’s more than possible your LOs were feeling the same thing as you (just as strongly) and given the circumstances just didn’t know what do with it. Sometimes that’s why things get strange or go sideways, because it appears they can’t go forward. Your LOs may have liked you very much.
Interesting topic Dr L! I do so enjoy a bit of philosophising about ethics…..
I love your suggestion that relationship morality is highly individual and unique for each couple. This makes a good case for couples spending the time getting to know each other very well before plunging into a lifetime commitment!
I believe that having a tolerant and compassionate attitude towards other’s, and one’s own, human imperfections and mistakes is of equal importance to morality/ethics. I must add that being emphatic with the the inner person is not the same as condoning the behaviour.
I have always had an intense discomfort with people making moral judgements of each other, I don’t think they have ever succeeded in making anyone’s life better. As you say we should all seek to understand instead of judge as the finer detail of people’s feelings and experiences so often alters our judgement of their actions. Easier said than done of course and I am as guilty of judging as anyone 🙂
The question of morality and degree of harm is an interesting one…..I think what is often ignored is the cognitive processing in between an external action and someone’s response to it. It can be hard to differentiate what harm is attributable to the action, and how much additional harm is caused by the person’s internal narratives about what has happened. We should all take some responsibility for that.
I have a question for the women here…
As part of your LE, do you ever fantasize that your LO is pursuing you, and you’re playing hard to get?
I’m kind of wondering about the tradition gender roles in our LEs. As a man, I’ve found myself often fantasizing in the traditional male gender role scenarios, particularly where the LO is the “damsel in distress” of sorts, and I get to “save the day.” Not as in “rescuing her from a dragon,” but things like changing a flat tire for her, or getting to be the guy who escorts her away from other cat-calling men.
Yes I not only fantasized, I did play hard to get with LO. I loved his persue.
I also seeked adventure and safety at the same time in LO since he is ( in my LE opinion) a very strong male and “provider”.
Him loving me made me feel safe in a weird nature force way. I loved being in my feminine energy during the beginning of the LE. till I wasn’t anymore and LE made me the persuer . Bad place to be in.
Well I totally faked my hard to get and my holding back because he had me at the first glimmer, but I know I can come off way too strong so I monitored myself constantly, hello overthinking, analyzing, craziness.
I never litterary dreamed about being rescued but it played out like that, I unconsciously wanted LO to rescue me from my lifeless marriage. But above all I wanted LO to be there forever, as a safe loving caring strong haven.
In my fantasies I am always pursued by LO, but the mutual passion is always far too overpowering for me to ever be hard for them to get 🙂
Like you Mia, I like a strong take-charge man that I can surrender myself to. That makes me feel safe, cared for….possessed even. I never fantasise about being rescued though.
In the real world when I have been single, I am never limerent when I am pursued, only when I have been the pursuer. And I am usually the strong one. So the very opposite of my fantasies darn it!
Okay, ladies, this is going to sound stupid, but don’t forget it’s a man asking this question.
How exactly do you ladies play “hard to get” with a man? Does it mean you make yourself unavailable to him, or act somewhat rude to him?
No absolutely never rude. Why would you want to be rude to anyone, especially when you like the person. I Just don’t answer to text immediately. Sometimes don’t answer at all, always be the one to end the conversation, with some lie what I had to do, ( ballet or art class ) and absolutely don’t bring up feelings or expectations. I had a whole list of rules for myself to basically manipulate someone’s feelings and reinforce them, it was unhealthy and unnatural.
It’s also a no go for me in the future since the manipulation is basically telling myself ” he won’t like you if you act like yourself ” and the while strategy thing makes me think about the contact way too much , reinforcing limerence.
In answer to your question Matt, before getting together with SO, I was useless at flirtation and game playing, and was usually straightforward if I was interested (usually leading to lack of success!).
At the very beginning of my LE, before I acknowledged I had atypical feelings for LO, I blanked him at close range, in front of a friend of his, and friends of mine (who didn’t know I knew him). It was rude, and I felt terrible afterwards, it really wasn’t my usual friendly behaviour and I couldn’t explain it to myself at all as I thought so highly of LO. It was almost as though I was overwhelmed by shyness and couldn’t look at him. It was six months later that I conceded to myself that he could have viewed it somehow as flirtatious, or ‘playing hard to get’. As the LE developed I had strong freeze-flight moments when he approached. So on the one hand I desired interaction, and when it looked likely I would evade contact; a person-specific social anxiety. I couldn’t trust my erratic behaviour in a face-to-face encounter, and ended up phoning when I needed to make contact. I really didn’t want him to know I found him so bloody attractive, as we are both married with kids and I am a lot older than him.
LO certainly filled the traditional male gender role in my mind, he had in real life ‘solved’ a real issue for us as a family (I probably gave him far too much credit!), and I saw him as a true hero!! I don’t know his feelings for me, as I finally shook myself up enough to get out of this awkward situation, but I did feel like he was pursuing me through looks and contrived meetings.
Hazel, my LO would do the same thing. We’d cross paths in the hallway and I’d say “good morning” like a professional, but she’d walk right by me without even acknowledging my presence. I could be a foot away from her and it would be like I didn’t exist. It creeped me out. And this is what led to my LE – I started wondering if she were interested in me. If she had simply said hi once in awhile I probably would be on this site.
Song of the Day #1: “Rescue Me” – Fontella Bass (1965)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALQ6lzS-Npc
The quintessential rescue song of damsels-in-distress.
Song of the Day #2: “Holding Out For A Hero” – Bonnie Tyler (1984)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GPZDX9_2oE
Written by the king of rescue song writers, Jim Steinman.
If you hear a woman singing this one, run, just run.
Non-limerent STBXW of a (serial) limerent here.
“As part of your (courtship), do you ever fantasize that your (suitor) is pursuing you, and you’re playing hard to get?”
No.
*micdrop*
Missed you, Lee 🙂
I’m glad you and the readers appear to still be in good health. Keep it up!
Wash your hands. Wear a good mask. Consider eye protection/face shield. Stay at least 6 feet away from others. No licking doorknobs.
Lee, are you sure we can’t lick doorknobs? 🙂
Not even doorknobs LO touched once ??
Licking doorknobs?
I wonder if we have any Freudians on LwL?
Doorknobs aren’t your typical phallic symbol but if you Google it, you get a surprising number of hits.
This little subthread went sideways quickly!
Yes, but made me laugh! 🙂
ESPECIALLY not doorknobs that LO has touched once.
“This little subthread went sideways quickly!”
I have a gift.
Clips of the Day: “Top Gun” – 1986
I love this movie!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiKSAo6vKmk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt8FqaMsYDY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib8QahlcZNw
I may have them out of order.
Hi everyone, I just wanted to give you all a heads’ up. As some of you will know, I began posting on this forum close to 3 weeks ago because I am in the midst of going through my 4th LE, and that I was struggling because LO4, whom I in the midst of building a friendship with, was soon to move away from where I live, something that I was having difficulty coming to terms with.
Until today, I wasn’t sure when exactly when they were going to move. Now, I understand that it will happening sometime this coming weekend, possibly a day or so after that, depending on how it goes. I hope that I won’t need to rely on your support too much, as I’ve been doing okay these past couple weeks, but if I do, I would appreciate any words of support you can offer. Thanks! 🙂
We will be there if needed!
@Mia, thank you. 🙂 That’s why I posted on this forum after reading some comments by you folks and how you support one another. 🙂
I knew that the day of their move and the immediate aftermath weren’t going to be easy, no matter how much I prepared for it. The thing is, speaking to them and their parent, it’s something my LO is excited about doing, and I am truly happy for them. Inwardly, as much as I am happy for them, it hurts like hell and it makes me guilty writing this because it’s so selfish, but there’s that part of me that really wishes they were staying, despite the fact that’s not what they want.
What isn’t helping the situation, limerence aside, is that over the years, I’ve lost contact with or haven’t been able to visit people and places I became close to after my moves, all of which was due to circumstances beyond my control. Pretty much every one of those moves was painful because of what I was losing, and I am wary about becoming close to people or places because I worry about moving away from them or, in LO4’s case, them away from me, to avoid the pain that those moves trigger in me.
It’s that painful fear of loss that is being triggered by their move, and even though they will be back to visit their parent, I am fearful that I won’t see them again just as we’ve begun to getting to know each other better as friends. I also worry about how they will be in their new place, a level of worry amplified with the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic. My limerence and guilt add to my burden too.
Stay strong. Whatever you need, even if it’s only to vent, we’re here.
Hi everyone. As I anticipated, LO4 left today, but I was able to say good-bye to them before they went and wish them luck in their move. We also spoke briefly and promised to keep in touch in the coming weeks and to meet up when they are in the area again. I am both relieved and saddened by today’s events. Relieved, because I was able to say good-bye in person and also saddened that they’re leaving and they won’t be around that often.
Presently, I am holding up better than expected, which I think is partly due to me being able to say good-bye to them as opposed to finding out from their parent days after their departure. It also hasn’t sunk in that they’re gone, other than shedding a couple of tears not long after saying good-bye. I fully expect that the reality of their departure won’t hit until this coming week when it occurs to me when I haven’t seen them around.
What I am curious about, going forward, is how my limerence will be affected through our online conversations that LO promised we will be having via the social media platform we’re on in the coming weeks. Letting it fade so I can enjoy a true friendship with LO4 is what I am working on; what I suspect will happen is that it will fade during the occasions they’re not here, but return with a vengeance when they come back to see their parent.
It is also going to be a learning experience for me – to deal with an ongoing limerence while trying to achieve something I haven’t any success at doing: Maintaining a long-distance friendship. I really want this to work out as, like today’s interaction reminded me, I do enjoy being in their company and conversing with them, and I deeply regret it was only in the past three months or so that we got to know each other better than we did previously.
Most importantly is I should accept that, while there were chances for us to become better acquainted during the time they were living with their parent, we have something now that, if we mutually work at it, can grow into the type of close friendship that I would love for us to have. As I keep reminding myself … LO4, of all my LOs, is the one whom I’ve become closest to: Developing a friendship, having more meaningful conversations, and even socializing, things I only dreamed of with LOs 1, 2 and 3.
The coming days and weeks are not going to be easy, and I hate that I am going through this turmoil, but whatever happens, I will pull through this and look forward to what the future holds.
Glad to see that you’re holding better than expected! But yes, the next days are going to be a bit rough.
I’ve been always of the opinion that you can keep being friends with LOs once the limerence has faded, so is good that yo have a way to reaching them, as long as you’re careful not to feed the LE unconsciously.
Here’s hoping that things go well between you and LO in the future!
@Benjamin, thanks for those words of support! 🙂 The feelings I’ve had today haven’t been as bad as those I felt on the day that I found out that LO4 was going to move. That day, and the subsequent ones were quite tough, so as long as I don’t feel that way again (or worse!), then I know I will be able to pull through without as much difficulty as expected.
I really do want this friendship to work out. At the present time, I have few friends to speak of, and my limerence aside, LO4 is a kind, positive and friendly person, whom when I first met them a couple of years ago, I enjoyed the brief interactions we had and was glad for the chance to meet them again when they moved in with their parent last year. It would be simply wonderful to build a lasting friendship with them and that’s what I hope I can achieve, albeit, with my limerence dying down, of course!
I haven’t been commenting as much lately, but I wanted to post a bit of an update on my situation. I am not sure if this is the best post to comment on, but I see my current situation as being somewhat relevant to this post.
Things got pretty bad again with my wife for about three or four days in a row last week and into the weekend. She was absolutely abominable the way she behaved towards me and my daughter (although my daughter was being a spoiled, entitled, cheeky little bugger as well and I was disappointed in her behaviour too). The funny thing about my daughter is that she is much better behaved towards me than towards my wife. Even when my wife is being nice to her and giving her something or doing something for her, my daughter is incredibly rude and disrespectful towards my wife. I put it down to the fact that my wife is such a control freak with my daughter and so negative and nitpicking that my daughter automatically assumes the worst whenever my wife even opens her mouth. The truth is the way my wife criticizes her every move, my daughter is going to have zero self-esteem when she grows up.
Basically I have come to the conclusion that I am about 99% sure my marriage is done (although I am not going to rush into anything just yet). My wife is such a control freak and so bossy, mean and negative that I can no longer ignore that behaviour even during the 70% of the time when she is being nice to me. I used to always feel guilty for my negative thoughts towards her when she was being nice, but I am beginning to get to the point where the niceness doesn’t displace my anger at her for the times when she is being horrible.
I have again started hanging out with some of my new friends I met just before the pandemic hit. We have now went out twice. My wife even came along the first time, and I think she got along fairly well with my new friends (even though she doesn’t like bars). The second time my friend asked me to join them (this past weekend) my wife had to work, and she tried every excuse to stop me from going out with my friends. She accused me of cheating on her, trying to pick up women (who she referred to as “whores”) and she got angry at me because I wanted to change my shirt to go out (I usually need to have my clothes pre-approved by her and she accused me of trying to show off my “non-existent muscles”). She also tried to tell me we couldn’t afford for me to go out (even though I had put some money aside to go out) and accused me of being an alcoholic. Of course, my LO came into the conversation, then my wife sarcastically told me I should try for one of my new (female) friends. Naturally, my LO also came up in the conversation and my wife accused me of having an affair with her (not sure how I can have an affair with someone I have zero contact with). We had a huge fight as she dropped me off at the bar — then my wife was all fine the next morning and it was as if we never fought the night before. However, as usual, she did scream at me about a household project I was working on.
I am done with this bullshit. I hardly saw anyone for months, and we were supposedly on holiday last week — yet we did hardly anything (although admittedly part of the problem was the weather didn’t cooperate) and fought the rest of the time. Then she gets all furious with me because I go out with some friends for a few beers and to catch a local cover band for maybe three hours. She is bloody well not going to stop me from going out! I am NOT asking her permission to do things anymore. I don’t care if she doesn’t trust me. I am not going to be a prisoner. If she wants to pull that crap, it is the best possible way to lose me (perhaps that’s what she is trying to do?).
I did end up asking my new friend if he knows my LO (he is a regular at the pub where I met her). He doesn’t know her by name, but I bet he would recognize her if he saw her. In all honesty, my other new (female) friend who hangs out with this crowd is slightly glimmery for me (Scharnhorst would like her because she’s a redhead 🙂 ). I would NEVER cheat on my wife, and my new friend hasn’t said a word out of place to me, but it has been nice just to have someone else fun and interesting to talk to and think about to keep my mind off my LO at least just a bit. A couple of others have recently commented on this as a strategy to help manage limerence, and I must say it is helping to a certain extent. Again, I would NOT hit on this woman or do anything inappropriate, but it is nice to take my mind off my LO just a bit, at least some of the time. I cannot see me developing full-blown limerence for this lady though. Because my new friends hang out at the pub my LO frequents, bumping into her at some point in the future is a possibility. Who knows what my relationship status will be by then, but I am really thinking things aren’t going to work out with my wife and me (and I think I’m starting to be alright with that).
Sad to hear that your marriage troubles didn’t get better. Didn’t she agreed to go to couple’s therapy with you?
So sorry that your marriage is in bad place VL. You need to feel loved, appreciated, valued and respected at home and your wife is not giving you that from the sound of it. It is so exhausting living in a stressy household with constant arguing – not a situation that anyone should tolerate long term as really not good for your mental health. Given her refusal to go to therapy with you and try to fix the issues in your marriage, no-one can blame you for wanting out.
Good to hear from you VL – and on typically reflective form.
Sorry to hear that things haven’t improved, but it’s encouraging to hear more purpose and resolution in your words. Wishing you all the best, however things play out.
For now, enjoy the freedom to socialise again! I’m on holiday with my family, and it’s really good to be able to go to pubs and cafes at last.
Thanks everyone for your supportive comments. In all fairness, I have not forced the issue of marriage counselling with my wife. I realize that it could possibly be helpful, but I am also scared to be perfectly honest. I imagine it would result in some serious drama and strife, and I am not sure how much it could help when the problems are so deep. I may still force the issue before going any further though because there is still love there (although I am beginning to realize that many divorced couples still have strong positive feelings for their exes in many ways). I also have to mention that my wife is scared and feels rejected by me. I can understand those feelings, but trying to dominate and control me and being so downright negative and nasty isn’t the way to deal with our problems. It is very nice to be able to go out and socialize with people again,