A couple of days ago, Oldtimer jumped into the comments section of an old post about the implausibility of being friends with an LO. The comment was thought-provoking:
I have come back to say that now I am good friends with the person who used to be my LO. I couldn’t be friends with the LIMERENT OBJECT, but when he ceased to be an LO, he became a real person, and over time, I became friends with that person. We like and trust each other, support each other through difficulties, rejoice in each other’s happiness.
I can cry and share my feelings with him and not feel any desire for him in a romantic way.
It’s worth reflecting on this scenario, as it carries within it several important insights about limerence and what it does to our brains.
1. Seeing them as a real person
The first and most obvious insight is how the relationship with LO has shifted in Oldtimer’s mind. When LO was a limerent object he was more of an ideal construct, a vehicle for romantic hopes, a screen to project a fantasy movie onto. It’s hard to get to know someone on those terms. Being with them just bombards you with emotional reward and arousal, drowning out any real chance of hearing them clearly, or interacting with them authentically.
That illusion has to fade before you can actually perceive the real person behind the dream persona.
This is not unlike the conundrum about whether or not a limerent object can be a good long-term partner. To be honest, it’s almost impossible to feel your way to the truth of this, until the limerence mania has passed. If you can get your executive to take control and identify incompatibilities objectively, you stand a chance of making a rational decision early in limerence as to whether to risk going deeper.
Similarly, there should be clues to let you know whether someone would make a good friend based on observable traits like character, compassion, trustworthiness and shared values. That can help you decide whether it’s worth trying to grind through the limerence, or admit that it’s better to walk away.
2. What qualities make a good friend?
Linked into the preceding point, it’s important to have a clear idea of what the friendship with LO would mean for you. In the original post, I used the Aristotelian framework for classifying friendships. Sometimes people object to this slightly judgmental and transactional view of friendship, believing instead that a true friend is someone who you stick with through thick and thin. It’s a perspective I can understand, but it also means your friendship group can end up being large and haphazard, and dominated by people who demand a lot and give less.
Unsurprisingly, I advocate for a more purposeful approach to friendship, where those based on reciprocity, mutual respect, and mutual enrichment are prioritised over more casual connections. The problem with this is that it requires you to be rational and clear-headed, which is not the usual state of mind during limerence.
So, how can you tell what is a good foundation for a friendship worth cultivating, versus a limerence-addled delusion? Here are a few suspicious reasons for wanting friendship:
- You feel energised by their company
- You provide unusually deep emotional support to them
- You seek unusually deep emotional support from them
- You revel in your shared intimacy
- You would start a romantic relationship if they initiated it
While good friendships may well involve some of these features, they are also strong indicators that limerence is driving the desire for a closer friendship to get the additional fix of limerent reward.
3. When are you “safe”?
It’s so tempting to say “never”, but Oldtimer proves that’s overly pessimistic. It is possible to become friends with a former limerent object, but you do need to have a clear understanding of why and how you overcame your limerence.
We’ve previously discussed the ways that limerence usually ends – mainly either by reciprocation or starvation – but toughing it out until it goes away through fatigue could conceivably be another option.
However you get there, there are some definite indicators as to whether you are truly over an LO:
- You wouldn’t want a romantic relationship, even if they asked
- You no longer feel giddy with covert excitement at the prospect of seeing them
- You feel no impulse to conceal or minimise the friendship to others
- You don’t seek them as your primary source of emotional comfort
- You feel no discomfort around their spouse or significant other
4. How can you get to friendship more quickly?
OK, so maybe you are in the scenario where your LO is a potential good friend, and you really want to get over your feelings and get beyond the limerence to a worthwhile and life-enriching friendship. Is there a shortcut?
Good LOs are hard to get over. The deprogramming tactics of ruining happy fantasies and focusing on negative interactions are counterproductive to remaining friends. Similarly, No Contact, while effective, would also snuff out most friendships. So, what tactics could you use?
If you and they are single, you could go for disclosure. Limerence thrives on uncertainty and hope, and so removing those two factors from your relationship (by being totally open and seeking direct answers) neutralises their power. Ironically, once you are sure you want the limerence to end, you can stop worrying so much about tiptoeing around, and finding the best way to frame every interaction to optimise the chance of reciprocation. Instead, you can relax and be honest.
That said, disclosure is a bad idea if you or they are not free to act on your feelings.
Finally, as always, the unifying idea, the panacea of limerence recovery, is purposeful living. Think beyond the limerence and to a life in which you are pursuing your purpose and they are not the focus of your attention. Friends will have an important role in any well-lived life, but LO should just be one among your group, not the centre of your world.
If you can get to that point, there is a chance you can help each other grow, and develop into the kinds of people you want to be – rather than deifying them into the source of all hope, meaning and reward.
Well done, Oldtimer!
Thanks for sharing.
Dr. L, a very good subject to think about…Thank you.
For me, as a heterosexual female, I don’t think I’d be able to be friends with an ex LO, or any male I’ve had an affair with , for that matter .The reason being that I got close to them because of a sexual -romantic desire. Once that’s gone, and the emotional feelings , the friendship is over. I was not ever interested to have male friends, nor do I care to have them now, except if they’re my female friends ‘spouses. And when we get together automatically, the men mingle with men and women with women. I can have a gay male as a friend, no problem, because we get along much better than heterosexual males, and I feel safer with them. Heterosexual males are usually challenging, or defying females as if they were the enemy or someone to argue with, or flirt with, not all of them of course, but we are very careful with male friendships. Some go on a “conquest mode” as soon as a woman shows up in a room full of males. It is very uncomfortable as you can understand. But I still find heterosexual males as very “interesting creatures” to be tamed. I have one home, my SO!!!
Have a great weekend you all.
Hi Nisor,
While I tend to agree in general, I think having true male heterosexual friends is possible. I have 2-3 that I can think of, and I have zero romantic feelings to either of them or have ever had.
That being said, I have had some dirty dreams about 2 of them lol. It was very puzzling because I’ve never even thought of them that way in real life, and it was very embarrassing when I woke up.
Hi Lola,
It’s been difficult for me because whenever I trusted a male with a friendship, however innocent, they always tried to make up with me, or at some point disclose romantic feelings for me. Very awkward situation and embarrassing for I didn’t know how to handle it afterwards.(even my brother in law when young, and the SO of my best friend when old.)Thus I keep away from close male friendships.
I think Oldtimers friendship with his former LO is a unicorn development.
Those neural pathways are still there and one day, if conditions are right, i am convinced the glimmer could return. Or if one has so devalued LO while in recovery, how on earth would one even want to be friends?
If one has experienced a full blown lengthy Limerent episode I think evolving into polite acquaintanceship is the best one can realistically hope for. Close friendship is playing with dormant fire.
For me, not worth the risk. Plenty of other lovely people to be close friends with.
“I think Oldtimers friendship with his former LO is a unicorn development.”
I agree with you. I’m not saying this is Oldtimer’s situation, but many limerents use the “we’ll just be friends” tactic (either they aren’t available, their LO isn’t availalble or their LO isn’t interested) to keep the LO in their life in some capacity. It’s a “limerent workaround” because the thought of going NC is overhwelming. And it is. The thought of not having the LO in one’s life at all, ever again, is overwhelming, but it’s really the only way to get over limerence. And also not effective is the other tactic: the limerent telling themselves, “Well, I’ll go NC until the limerence dies and then we can be friends,” because that’s just another workaround. That’s keeping a shred of hope alive for some kind of reuniting.
@Marcia
You’re so insightful again about limerents’ mind!
It is really the first time I am facing such a huge challenge, because there was never a legal SO around in all my past LEs and LOs were all free to act and all reciprocated, only external barrier existed, personality clashed or incompatibility persisted….
This one is similar to your situation as we talked about…. My limerent mind is still hanging on a hope to become a friend because as I discussed with Sammy, he seems to hold a part of what was supposed to be but is missing in me…
I know this could be just an illusion all in in my head, but unable to shake it off after 6 years… he was there consoling me when I was prepared to “die” of a possible terminal lymphoma. Then I tried to kill him with verbal reprimanding and now I need to walk firmly away from him?
Marcia I think you nailed it with the workaround analogy. It’s getting a very mild hit of the limerence drug disguised as friendship or maybe entwined with friendship. But I judge not, as I did this for years myself. I am
sometimes wistful for the LO “friendship” and wonder if enough time has gone by to regenerate it, then I remember the agony of limerence and have to have the humility and self respect to know that I owe it to myself to stay the course. The mind/heart can play tricks on us, best to stay ever vigilant.
Jaideux,
“I am sometimes wistful for the LO “friendship” and wonder if enough time has gone by to regenerate it”
I mean … I guess it depends on how good of a friend he was. I have a couple of friends who’ve passed away who I really miss, who I can’t replace because of how unique they were as people and because of the connection we had. True BFFs, as corny as that sounds. Was he that kind of friend?
I never considered my LO a friend. I was immediately attracted to him. Our interactions were flirtatious right off the bat. He is not someone I would have gone to for support or if I needed advice. We never got to that level in our … whatever was going on between us. In my situation, it was either going to get romantic … or there was no point to it.
I agree. 4 years out and NC I still wouldn’t try, or entertain it.
Jaiduex,
I’m with you on this one.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/cant-we-just-be-friends/#comment-6758
I remember your story. You were friends with your LO. That’s another good point. The limerent is sometimes waiting for the LO to do the right thing (i.e. leave them alone) but it usually doesn’t happen. The LO is often aware the limerent has feelings but is getting something out of the friendship/interaction. The limerent has to be the one to pull the plug. The LO isn’t going to do it.
It’s why I’m leary about disclosing. The limerent can disclose but the LO can be confusing in their response, which can cause the limerent to hang on in a dead-end situation. Again, the limerent has to be the one to pull the plug. Can’t hand that responsibility over to the LO.
“The LO is often aware the limerent has feelings but is getting something out of the friendship/interaction. The limerent has to be the one to pull the plug. The LO isn’t going to do it.“
@Marcia
Some LOs not only will not leave limerents alone, they would even try to pull them back with all sorts of skillful or irresistible dopamine-filled enticements….
“Again, the limerent has to be the one to pull the plug. Can’t hand that responsibility over to the LO.”
That’s what I want to hear again and again, thanks Marcia!
Snowphoenix,
“Some LOs not only will not leave limerents alone, they would even try to pull them back with all sorts of skillful or irresistible dopamine-filled enticements….”
That is exactly what mine did. He’d sense I was pulling away and he’d give me a bit of space … but then he’d circle back around after a while. He wanted that attention.
@ Marcia,
We are in the exactly same boat.
That’s why I’d love you to hop here from time to time to hammer my still muddled head or bending willpower to help straighten my LC/NC path!
Snowphoenix,
“That’s why I’d love you to hop here from time to time to hammer my still muddled head or bending willpower to help straighten my LC/NC path!”
I can do that. 😉
It sounds like your LO is capable of being a supportive friend. So that makes it trickier.
Really interesting read. My ex LO and I started out as high school friends that bonded during a difficult time. There was a mutual respect and understanding between us then and that still exists now. I think this comes from the ways in which we exercised self control and boundaries with one another throughout. That in no way involves a “close” friendship though. I think how people define friendship will often expose their motives and intentions in these situations. The care is there but the physical and emotional proximity for me is not. This person may feel like she’s friends with her ex LO but just by the comment alone I can tell they’re both probably single. This will change quickly if he married and became less emotionally available. Crying out your feelings to your ex LO is reckless. And to be honest I’m not certain why women believe men are so concerned with all the emotional stuff we dump on them. That’s what girlfriends are for not a man. At least not one you’re not in a relationship with.
Also to your point about disclosure. There was a moment in time me and my ex LO sat face to face and I had the opportunity to tell him exactly how I felt. But what I knew the result of this would have been was his sexual desire taking that as an opportunity to pursue a sexual relationship. Instead I chose to hold back and I kept boundaries in place which I would say permanently shifted the trajectory of our friendship to one of two matured individuals doing life apart from one another while still valuing each other as individuals and the history we share. If there was any thought in his mind or my mind that we could have given us a try, that was shut down in that very moment because I gave zero leeway for it. I also wasn’t in limerence at that point but living my life. Some of us are so convinced we’re in control and yet deep down we’re hoping there’s a leeway and we’re hoping LO sees it. Don’t deceive yourself because you’re certainly not deceiving them.
On the other hand years later I did disclose “some” things that I struggled to let go of between us. This was when the limerence resurrected like a ghost from my past. It was a respectful and insightful adult conversation and then we returned to our lives. It helped me to close doors connected to trauma that I could no longer use to justify my ongoing limerence. Once closure took place I had to no choice but to move forward.
I agree with Marcia. It’s blatantly apparent to LO they are getting special treatment even if the limerent is blissfully unaware of his actions. A platonic relationship mostly can’t evolve from that. Limernet gets needs met, LO thrives. Who doesn’t love getting treated as a goddess? The limerent destroys an otherwise perfectly possible relationship. The limerent is the destroyer of his own dreams.
Adam,
Is this the original Adam or a new one? 🙂
“It’s blatantly apparent to LO they are getting special treatment even if the limerent is blissfully unaware of his actions.”
I think the limerent is very aware of what he or she is doing. I was aware I was focusing my attention on my LO and not other guys at the office.
“Limernet gets needs met, LO thrives. Who doesn’t love getting treated as a goddess?”
Does the limerent get his or her needs met? Probably not. They probably want more.
And the goddess thing, I don’t know. I personally don’t like when men kiss my butt, although individualized, prioritized attention/flirtation is always nice.
“The limerent destroys an otherwise perfectly possible relationship.”
I don’t know what you mean. I don’t know that there could have been a relationship (and by that I’m guessing you mean friendship). Not if one person is limerent.
Marcia
“I never wanted to be your weekend lover
I only wanted to become some kind of friend
I could never steal you from another
It’s such a shame our friendship had to end”
Destroyer of our own dreams.
@Adam,
I second Marcia here almost on her points —
“It’s blatantly apparent to LO they are getting special treatment even if the limerent is blissfully unaware of his actions.”
Limerent is highly sensitive, pining over every “cues” LO could possible display; s/he is more than usually aware of their actions.
A platonic relationship mostly can’t evolve from that. Limernet gets needs met, LO thrives.
If limerent gets their needs met, they would NOT slip into limerence. Most LO is flattered, only Sensor or Narc LO thrives because they get fuel from their pet limerents. It’s never a platonic relationship because limerents (un)consciously want pair-bonding, emotional or sexual consummation, although they may not be fully aware of it.
“Who doesn’t love getting treated as a goddess?”
We are round human beings with strength and weakness, who want to be treated as goddess, hung in the sky to be worshiped? We sometime even prefer to be understood than being loved! Once a guy of woman worshiper (a “enlightened” buddhist) did treat me like a goddess and would do anything for me without ever losing his temper; he bored me out of my wits!
“The limerent destroys an otherwise perfectly possible relationship.”
What perfectly possible relationship are you talking about here? The limerence, not limerent, could possibly ruin a good friendship. I also agree with Marcia here, there are probably not workable “relationships” if one party has already slipped into a limerence.
“The limerent is the destroyer of his own dreams.”
Again limerent’s dream is to pair-bond or get emotional reciprocation from (in most cases) an unavailable or unfit LO or an huge barrier, why is he “the destroyer of his own dreams?”
Adam,
“I never wanted to be your weekend lover
I only wanted to become some kind of friend
I could never steal you from another
It’s such a shame our friendship had to end”
Destroyer of our own dreams.”
Not sure what this is, other than the lyrics to “Purple Rain. “:)
For me, anyway, there was no dream to destroy. No opportunity I killed. My LO did not want anything from me. There was only the reality to wake up to that it was all in my head.
“My LO did not want anything from me. There was only the reality to wake up to that it was all in my head.“
@Marcia
Again, you nailed my reality! That’ll be my another insightful mantra from now on…
Snowphoenix,
“We are round human beings with strength and weakness, who want to be treated as goddess, hung in the sky to be worshiped? We sometime even prefer to be understood than being loved!”
Yes, very much so. And it is very hard to understand another person. It is much harder to understand them than to love them.
” Once a guy of woman worshiper (a “enlightened” buddhist) did treat me like a goddess and would do anything for me without ever losing his temper; he bored me out of my wits!”
Exactly. Another great gift someone can give you is if they know you so well, they can call you on your crap. I remember a close friend telling me something one day, and it irked me when she said it (she did not say it meanly; she was simply making a point), but months later I realized she was right. She understood my motivation better than I understood it, and it helped me, much more than someone kissing my butt and flattering me.
“The limerent is the destroyer of his own dreams.”
I could be wrong, but my brain translated Adam’s line as follows:
“The limerent, as a result of becoming obsessed with LO, destroys the possibility of platonic friendship with LO – a platonic friendship that might be very much desired, and thus the limerent’s ‘dream’.”
Alternative version one: two human beings might get along great, but the snowballing feelings of one party might make the great connection increasingly unstable and unsustainable.
Alternative version two: obsession is incompatible with Aristotelian notions of friendship.
I apologise for speaking on Adam’s behalf, but I feel people are piling on top on him. I don’t think Adam said anything wrong. I think Adam’s overall statement shows that his thinking at the moment on limerence is very, very confused. But he’s also trying to get things right, so credit where credit is due. 😜
“Limernet gets needs met, LO thrives.”
In a friendship that has undercurrents of limerence, the LO may or may not be thriving. However, I don’t think the limerent is getting needs met, because the limerent wants more than friendship. The limerent is probably pretty unhappy with how things are unfolding.
“Who doesn’t love getting treated as a goddess?”
I don’t want to start a war with the feminists of planet Earth. (Or maybe I do. I just love arguing for the sake of arguing). 😆 Let’s keep ideology out of it for the time being. Maybe some women enjoy being treated as goddesses and maybe some women don’t enjoy being treated as goddesses. I think the salient point is that if a man regards a given woman as a goddess, he is NOT relating to her as a platonic friend. He is having an erotic response to her (and most likely to her beauty). Alternatively, if a woman views a man as a god/hero, she’s not really relating to him as a friend either, etc, etc. She is having some sort of erotic response to the man in question.
“The limerent destroys an otherwise perfectly possible relationship.”
I think this is the statement that’s most confusing to people, and not “the destroyer of his dreams” line, although the latter would make a fabulous song lyric!! People are unsure what this “otherwise perfectly possible relationship” is. Is it a platonic relationship with LO? Is it a romantic relationship with LO?
To my mind, the male limerent is both the creator of his own dreams and the destroyer of his own dreams. The answer is to learn how to distinguish between one’s dreams and cold, hard reality. 😉
Friends, let’s not be too hard on Adam. I think what happens to the average heterosexual male, when he journeys too deep into the land of limerence, is that he believes that the sole secret to happiness in life IS helping the woman he idolises. He sees nothing wrong in viewing said woman as a goddess. He becomes very hung up on the notion of how he might be of service to this goddess e.g. saving her from danger perhaps? And some women unfortunately might take advantage of the man’s blind loyalty/unquestioning devotion. 🤔
“It’s blatantly apparent to LO they are getting special treatment even if the limerent is blissfully unaware of his actions.”
Some human beings expect special treatment from everyone in their orbit. So they might not feel particularly grateful to limerent for any sacrifices made. Deities as a rule don’t care about mortals. Deities as a rule are sublimely indifferent to mortals. If one chooses allegiance to a deity, one does not make demands. The deity is the only person in the interaction who’s allowed to make demands. Making demands is one of the chief perks of being a deity. 😉
Sammy,
He’s using relationship and friendship in a synonymous way. I’m having him explain right now in real time. I picked up what he was saying just because we’ve known each other 24 years.
He said ‘relationship’ for him is across the board…. romantic, parent/child, friendship, families (chosen and born), etc. It makes sense to me, I hope I explained that in way y’all can understand (Sometimes I confuse myself, haha). I just had him explain it since it’s easier face to face.
He’s been doing better, though there is some slight backsliding now and again. instead of 4 steps forward, 7 backward it’s about 4 forward, 5 backward.
Marcia, it’s the original Adam that posted 😉 he checks in now and again, though not as much as it used to be.
<3
DmmitHardison,
Thanks for explaining.
I wasn’t trying to pile on him. Hope it didn’t come off that way.
“I wasn’t trying to pile on him. Hope it didn’t come off that way.”
@Marcia.
Apologies, Marcia. It’s just a couple of people seemed to pick up on this one admittedly enigmatic phrase “destroyer of own dreams” and I wasn’t really following the flow of the conversation. My mental CEO wanted to take charge of the classroom and start teaching English to native English speakers! Goodness me, I’m getting rather bossy in my old age. Never knew I had this side of me!! 😉
Thank you for being so supportive of the posters you know. You are a wonderful woman in so many ways. 😜
Sammy,
“Apologies, Marcia. ”
No need to apologize. I just wanted to be sure Adam knew I wasn’t trying to pick on him, if that’s how it came across. Sometimes I can be a little obtuse in knowing how my posts come across.
I was genuinely trying to understand what he posted.
Oh no, I wasn’t implying anyone was dog piling him at all, and truthfully if he gets dogpiled he can get out from it. I just knew what his context was but since we are face to face, I could have him explain, so he didn’t get anyone else confused. Only reason I jumped on and posted was because he was getting flustered not being able to say basically what I posted.
The Adam way of thinking/typing takes some practice to decipher and coming from the way we met (chatroom back in 99), I truly understand context and tone are sometimes really really difficult to get across typed words, instead of voice or face to face.
Seriously, if it had been a bone head comment, and people were calling him out he’d have to fight that battle. I think this was just him confusing y’all with his, frankly, confusing way of explaining sometimes and that’s the only reason I did post to help him.
🙂
“Not sure what this is other than lyrics to Purple Rain :)”
Marcia
It’s all I wanted. What was in those lyrics. But than this damned limerence got in the way. I didn’t want to be and act the way I did. But that damned limerence. I am still Facebook friends with a former female co-worker that I worked with 10 plus years ago. She is a laugh riot and we had similar humor. She’s the one finding out I was scared of spiders, around Halloween, put a huge stuffed spider on my desk. Dammit woman! Lol
I destroyed the chance of a perfectly normal and healthy co-worker relationship. I destroyed my dream of a possible mutual friendship that may could even have included my wife and Morgan’s gentleman friend. I feel it being more therapeutic than still referring to her as LO.
Sammy
I appreciate all the thought you put in your response to me. Your “alternative version one” is spot on. It is exactly what I meant. I would really like to express my appreciation for you speaking out on my behalf. And you are always welcome to because I feel you get me. But that initial post Marcia responded to was written with a lot of bitterness, resentment and a little self hate.
I am coming to grips with the fact that Morgan wasn’t the prefect angel I thought she was. That maybe she did manipulate me to keep the attention I was giving her until he came around. And even at that she, as LE told me, “kept me in her orbit just in case”. She was a human with flaws the same as any of us.
And unlike Marcia wondering if this is the new Adam. No it is not. It is the original Adam, not limerent Adam. And if there is one thing that I am good at it’s being hard on myself.
But not to risk rumination …. I think talking to Momma last night and conveying what I and telling her is good therapy. Due to her hard of hearing I have to look her in the eye so she can read my lips. And looking her in the eyes to say what I want is so much more difficult than posting something here and then being like “oh shit what if she sees this?”
So I think I will be mostly sticking to the Coffeehouse threads to check in on my friends here and bs. I think if Momma is okay with it that I will be speaking through her when it comes to the limerence. I think that will help us grow together rather than speak separately and make things worse.
MJ
I was listening to music yesterday and King Floyd’s Groove Me came on and I thought of you and LO. It will be forever you two’s song. 🙂
Speaking of music … Momma is winning them back. I listened to the below song, which at one time I saved with Morgan on my mind. But now it’s Momma’s song. Also I have purged some songs that will never remind me of anyone other than Morgan. Especially ones that were discovered in limerence.
“Don’t pray for me
Because I’m about to sink
I’m afraid I’ll break your heart again
I’m tired of fighting my demons from within
It’s a war I might never win”
Numb — Declan J Donovan
https://youtu.be/GhSon2jNZOM?si=PNclBEFC_omh2PH7
Adam,
“I destroyed the chance of a perfectly normal and healthy co-worker relationship. I destroyed my dream of a possible mutual friendship that may could even have included my wife and Morgan’s gentleman friend. I feel it being more therapeutic than still referring to her as LO.”
Ah, ok. Got it.
I guess I never saw my LO as “friend material.” I had too many other strong feelings that made friendship impossible. But understanding him better after all this time later, I’m not even sure I liked him that much. I think he’s one of these married guys who flirts heavily, pushes it right up to “the line” to see if the woman might actually hook up with him and then pulls back. It’s a really selfish, d**k move. It’s disgusting, really. Did you ever think that might have happened? If you had really gotten to know her, that maybe you wouldn’t have liked her.
Marcia,
that happened with my first LO. Now I think he is a narcissistic arrogant person and I don’t like him very much.
Even when I was limerent we fought a lot because we had such different views on almost everything.
But at the same time (or maybe because of it), this was the LE with the strongest sexual attraction. This LO I really don’t want to keep as a friend. I even struggle to be friendly to him as I see him regularly at work.
@Marcia,
That’s what my LO did, pushed all the way to the line with perfect timing and a spectacular, romantic place, I resisted it, while on the spot with a seductive dress and a bottle of champagne, softly accusing his previous narc behaviors for over 2.5 hours …. Underneath, I was thinking “I’m not going to let your Narc needs get fed.”… “I have my principles”… “I’m proving in action that you are not irresistible!” I did not regret it, I valued my heart too much more than anything else!
6 months later after I loosened up my “hostility” expressing a wish remain as a friend. He then hinted a couple of more times with a willingness to cross the line, I just played dumb pretending I did not get it. In truth, despite of all my private fantasies, I would not and could not let him to win his narc control — either pull back beforehand or afterwards leaving me in devastation. My ego trait — pride, is too high.
His marital status is not the main issue here, but his dallying at my emotions at cost of my health, his several typical, self-(un)aware narc behaviors in ghosting, gaslighting, blame-shifting, outright lying, unapologizing, etc. just enraged me. My 35% narc traits wanted to take a revenge beating him at his own game, since he is so needy of others’ “liking” and easily get self-defensive…. Thus from me more dramatic narc-accusing letter, NC, making up, again NC in person, then in writing…. My limerence made me into a drama queen, which was never a part of my previous identity. 😀
If he truly emotionally reciprocated somehow despite the barrier, I wonder what could have happened and where I would be today… 😨.
We know the only result in our scenarios, don’t we?
@Adam,
“I was listening to music yesterday and King Floyd’s Groove Me came on and I thought of you and LO. It will be forever you two’s song.” 🙂
Thanks for that Adam. I’m glad you can correlate the two. Perhaps one day if there is ever a wedding in our future, you’ll for sure be invited and you can watch us dance to that track as our first song as Husband and Wife..
(Tears in my eyes 👀 as I type this)
Mila,
“But at the same time (or maybe because of it), this was the LE with the strongest sexual attraction. This LO I really don’t want to keep as a friend. I even struggle to be friendly to him as I see him regularly at work.”
I was really attracted to my LO, too.
A lot of my understanding of his behavior came in hindsight. I suspected it but it actually wasn’t until recently that it was confirmed by an engaged co-worker of mine who unknowingly divulged all his flirtations and techniques to me (he knows nothing of my LO; I just let him talk). Now that I know … he disugsts me. LO and this co-worker.
I used to defend my LO to a friend who was trying to point out what he was doing. I thought he wasn’t aware. But he knew exactly what he was doing. What a piece of s**t, really.
Snowphoenix,
“That’s what my LO did, pushed all the way to the line with perfect timing and a spectacular, romantic place, I resisted it, while on the spot with a seductive dress and a bottle of champagne, softly accusing his previous narc behaviors for over 2.5 hours ”
So you said no? Why?
Mine said no to me, but I think he never intended to go through with it. Just made me think he would. Wanted to see how far I’d push it. And at the height of the LE, I would have said yes in a heartbeat.
But he was all tease and no delivery, which I do not.find.interesting.
@Marcia,
LO had outright denied that there was anything between us back in 2018, and I could have left the dynamic 5 years ago. But he kept hoovering me back in person and writing with an offer of “friendship” or “camaraderie” which I did not want.
I never disclosed my deep feeling but only confessed that those emails or text message were out of my need for consoling after Father’s sudden death, immediately afterward, he was helping my project and naturally became a surrogate-parental LO. (While writing, I did feel like a 6 years old, talking to Father who never bothered to listen).
So both side kept this bizarre, non-substantial “colleagues-friendship” going for 5 years up to this rare opportunity, all communications on both sides were indirected —“hidden with cues” in my limerent eyes. There were a couple of walks in the park, lunch and tea, but never physical contact or direct flirts.
We chitchatted like friends, but we were not.
So on that spot, no one asked for or offered to cross the line, and no one needed to refuse. But the tension was there after being built up for 5 years. I do not know by this day whether he’d say NO, or I’d say NO, if either of us dared to make a first move. I was too afraid of a rejection to even touch his hand — never did in 6 years.
Why “No” inside me beforehand? Because I knew his heart was not with me, not even 20%. And I told him so that if I feel anyone has 1% foot not in, I wouldn’t do anything. What’s the fun of doing anything together it if the other side’s mind is elsewhere? By that time I already caught his lie about his secret rendezvous w/ his new LO pet (he previously admitted that both his SO and him had extramarital “friendship”, respectively). I’m not going to hop on a Sensor’s fuel matrix, feeding his fragile ego!
If I were a liberal French, I might have taken the opportunity for fun (is it?). But I have cptsd, could not endure another episode of abandonment melange (he pulled off a huge one 3 years prior that led to my lymphoma). Also, I like a steady long-term loyal friendship, not some firework that lasts 30-40 minutes once a year.
Do you think a married, morality—mask wearing Sensor LO could ever meet a limerent’s desire (sexual connection is not the central one)? Not in the next life! And you’re right that it’s impossible to befriend with LO when one is still in the limerence with him.
However, if I’m out of limerence, my heart would not get hurt no matter what ex-LO does, like with LO #5. I can be FWB with ex LO and enjoy a physical intimacy, but not with the current LO despite an insurmountable desire, why? Such a mystery.
I feel a deep pain now to hear your story. Your LO is indeed cruel! You’re so brave for your heart, Bravo! If I were in your shoe, I probably would be fighting my second lymphoma now.
Snowphoenix,
” Because I knew his heart was not with me, not even 20%. And I told him so that if I feel anyone has 1% foot not in, I wouldn’t do anything.”
If I waited for to meet those standards, nothing would have ever happened with anyone. 🙂 I’ve never experienced mutual limerence. Limerence on my side; interest on theirs, yes.
” Also, I like a steady long-term loyal friendship, not some firework that lasts 30-40 minutes once a year.”
I was hoping for a little more than once a year. 🙂 Once a week? For as long as it lasted, maybe.
“Do you think a married, morality—mask wearing Sensor LO could ever meet a limerent’s desire (sexual connection is not the central one)?”
No, but I don’t know who could unless the LO was mutually limerent and it was this big, explosive, sexy THING that shook both the limerent and the LO to the core. Short of that, I think most limerents would be disappointed, but who gets that?
“However, if I’m out of limerence, my heart would not get hurt no matter what ex-LO does, like with LO #5. I can be FWB with ex LO and enjoy a physical intimacy, but not with the current LO despite an insurmountable desire, why? Such a mystery.”
I mean, you answered your own question. You’re “out of limerence” so you can enjoy it for what it is.
@Marcia
“If I waited for to meet those standards, nothing would have ever happened with anyone. 🙂 I’ve never experienced mutual limerence. Limerence on my side; interest on theirs, yes.”
I know my order is too tall. I was an idealist and all my ex LOs had reciprocated (minus Narc #3 & #6, hsp #5 w/o the glimmer; there were several shorter LEs). The trouble was once limerence reached its goal (married and divorced LO#4) of consummation, the relationship became dull or problematic particularly when one could see LO realistically w/o the rosy limerence lens. Then Incompatibilities kick in.
LO#7 is the only one with a married SO and (un)intentionally played such a lengthy pulling-n-pushing game with me. Even with cptsd, as an exLO myself, I never gave anyone any illusive hope or lingering interaction, afraid of wounding their emotions, which would hurt me in return. This is the first time I truly tasted the pains of unreciprocated limerence, which as you can see, is forcing me to doubt my old standards.
“I was hoping for a little more than once a year. 🙂 Once a week? For as long as it lasted, maybe.”
I just meant a short term that could end anytime. LO is doing “once a week” thingy with his own secrete LO. My ego pride would not allow me to become a side chick or compete with LO’s LO (the poor SD is even uncounted here). Crappy Childhood Faire strongly advocates that cptsd sufferers should avoid casual sex or being a side-chick at all times. To heal my cptsd is even a bigger task for me. (You told me about yours, too.)
“No, but I don’t know who could unless the LO was mutually limerent and it was this big, explosive, sexy THING that shook both the limerent and the LO to the core.”
No “sexy THING” alone could shake anyone’s core; emotional (perhaps + spiritual) connections have to be present. Without it, mere physical would bore LO sooner or later and still make limerent pining for emotional reciprocation. Sex with LO#6 and two none-LO dates were absolutely great, but bored me quickly because my spirit and heart were not connected with them. One of them was willing 24/7, but I was unwilling to pick up phone. Perhaps the theory that “the sexiest organ is one’s brain” works for me more properly.
“Short of that, I think most limerents would be disappointed, but who gets that?”
As long as emotional reciprocation is missing, no matter what LO does with them, limerents would be disappointed and possibly feel being manipulated, used, betrayed, and then “trashed” ultimately. Going for LoWB (w/ unavailable or unfit LO) is the highest risk to take for limerents particularly with cptsd.
But once “out of limerence”, the “sex THING” could become just “tamed” or lukewarm fire… Our biology and psychology are so puzzlingly paradoxical!
Snowphoenix,
“The trouble was once limerence reached its goal (married and divorced LO#4) of consummation, the relationship became dull or problematic particularly when one could see LO realistically w/o the rosy limerence lens. Then Incompatibilities kick in.”
Ha! Yes! Exact same thing happend to me. I didn’t marry him but he wanted to get married. But by then the rose-colored glasses had become quite clear! Wow, were they ever! 🙂
“LO#7 is the only one with a married SO and (un)intentionally played such a lengthy pulling-n-pushing game with me.”
So you mentioned the Crappy Childhood Fairy … in one of her videos, a single letter writer was having an emotional affair with a married man. She told her, “Someone who is tying up your emotional energy so they can take it while married is not caring for you. ” Truer words were never said.
“LO is doing “once a week” thingy with his own secrete LO.”
So he’s having an affair with someone else?
“My ego pride would not allow me to become a side chick or compete with LO’s LO (the poor SD is even uncounted here).”
No, I wouldn’t do that, either. I won’t be a second side piece. Although I have to be honest, I would have put up being the side chick with his wife. At the time, anyway.
“Crappy Childhood Faire strongly advocates that cptsd sufferers should avoid casual sex or being a side-chick at all times. To heal my cptsd is even a bigger task for me. (You told me about yours, too.)”
Yes, I agree. That’s good advice. I can do casual sex with someone I like (but am NOT limerent for), but only for a short time. Then I start having expectations and I start wating by the phone for his calls, etc.
“No “sexy THING” alone could shake anyone’s core; emotional (perhaps + spiritual) connections have to be present.”
I meant the emotional was present as well. I can’t be really into someone physically and not have a strong desire for the emotional repciprocation as well. I wanted him to be as moved by me and I was by him.
“Going for LoWB (w/ unavailable or unfit LO) is the highest risk to take for limerents particularly with cptsd.”
No, for me, had we gotten together, it would have been a love affair. At least in my mind.
“That’s what my LO did, pushed all the way to the line with perfect timing and a spectacular, romantic place”
Snowphoenix
I would like to share one thing with you before I take a sabbatical again, as I can see myself sinking in the sand.
Comedian Patrice O’Neil did a bit about this. And his analogy is spot on. Because I am starting to admit that I might have been guilty of it myself even though I tried to be honorable.
Men just like fishing. No matter how time goes on, men still like to fish. They need to know that they can still catch fish. They may not want to keep the fish. They just want to know that they can still catch them. As long as they know they can catch fish they are happy.
That’s not meant to make anyone feel better as it’s quite despicable behavior. Just some insight into a man’s (especially mid life) head.
Adam,
be assured that not only some men behave that way and need that kind of validation, some women do the same…
@Marcia,
“She told her, “Someone who is tying up your emotional energy so they can take it while married is not caring for you. ” Truer words were never said.”
Totally agree! Because it fuels a narcissist (or sensor’s) deeply-insecure self. Having a SO is never enough for them, s/he is just a biggest piece in their fuel matrix. They’ll take as many small pieces as they can. Liking “to be liked” by all, LO #7 would never loosen his “leash” on me if I don’t firmly cut it off myself.
LO is doing “once a week” thingy with his own secrete LO.”
So he’s having an affair with someone else?
Yes. I found out this (bumped into them when he was glomming at her) at the beginning of last year (2022), and that rare opportunity came afterwards during summer. So it was another reason I resisted temptation — not become a “second side-chick”, as you say. I’ll never give a Sensor or Narc that sense of manipulative power.
I hinted my knowledge of his secrete to his face when asking him to destroy all my missives this spring (which he said he did later). Then he thrice over future-faked that there would be more to be offered if I remain in this “mystifying relationship”. He seemed to be genuinely puzzled by what I really wanted after I subtly turned down his indirect PA offer four times. He probably does not know about limerence. In the past, he clearly suggested a casual “friendship” (between 0%-100%) in person and writing and I always refused the idea. I knew clearly what kinds of pains it would entail on my side.
“Although I have to be honest, I would have put up being the side chick with his wife. At the time, anyway.”
I thought about it; If he had reciprocated emotionally, I might have jumped in the PA loop. But for the first 4 years, his reciprocation (if any) was at most lukewarm and always hinted (my illusion?), since he needed to keep a moral facade in front of everyone, me included, thus I strictly kept the line in distance. Then this past 1.5 years, he’s been regularly going a weekly rendezvous, which provoked a hurtful jealousy in me, which I almost never felt for anyone in my entire life…. A severe limerence could really change one’s core somewhat!
Then with the fantasied ideal reciprocation only occurred in my limerent head for years, I actually felt acute physical discomfort and even alienation when being alone with LO (chitchat in office was fine). I could not relaxed let alone showing any deep affection. It felt so surreal like real, internal ME was taken outside of my body….
This limerence has created two of me — outside Snow and inside Phoenix, and two of him — a masked LO and the Phantom of LO. I told him in person that I could not integrate the two of them since he would not reveal enough who he is as a person. I even asked him back in April, “you don’t feel there is a third person (the Phantom) in between us?” He looked almost stunned.
“I can do casual sex with someone I like (but am NOT limerent for), but only for a short time. Then I start having expectations and I start waiting by the phone for his calls, etc.
The same here (but do not wait by the phone nowadays.) Because great sex produces bonding hormone oxytocin particularly in female. I clearly felt it with tears at the time and then would feel subtle pain after LO#5 keeps his distance (he does not play the game), although I can reason clearly — we are just too incompatible in this life time, and he has much worse chronic depression than me. I don’t have energy or wish to help with that. This is already third time of merry-go-around.
“I meant the emotional was present as well. I can’t be really into someone physically and not have a strong desire for the emotional reciprocation as well. I wanted him to be as moved by me and I was by him.”
That’s us limerents shared dreams and mostly unfulfilled longing! FWB with unreciprocated LO will only make our such longings more excruciating…. I already sense it without PA. I’d settle for EA, but clearly it’s not Sensor LO’s superficial or substantial goal.
“Going for LoWB (w/ unavailable or unfit LO) is the highest risk to take for limerents particularly with cptsd.”
No, for me, had we gotten together, it would have been a love affair. At least in my mind.
If LO pulls out of a PA with you, and you still feel fine; then your cptsd must have been healed. I could only imagine it when I’m out of limerence.
Every time after “speaking” with you and others, I’ve got something clearer in my mind, known my current self better, and felt stronger walking in the right direction. It’s the benefit of LwL.
“Men just like fishing. No matter how time goes on, men still like to fish. They need to know that they can still catch fish. They may not want to keep the fish. They just want to know that they can still catch them. As long as they know they can catch fish they are happy.”
@Adam
Thank you for your invaluable insight and advice, I’ll keep it in my mind at all times!
If we women are viewed as fishes, can we try to fish men and keep them in our fish tank? What would men feel if we want to catch them?
Try your mighty wits and strength in your sabbatical, and I’m trying my best to be strong and clear headed in my LC/NC path.
@Marcia,
A typo: it should be “when he was glimmering at her…
@Adam,
Sensor or Narc LOs (both male and female) will capture and keep limerent fishes in their private tank for a false/inauthentic sense of security and power at the cost of fishes’ freedom.
They can also cook one for its delicious taste… what an image!
Adam,
“Men just like fishing. No matter how time goes on, men still like to fish. They need to know that they can still catch fish. They may not want to keep the fish. They just want to know that they can still catch them. As long as they know they can catch fish they are happy.”
Then he needs to fish in a different pond! At least not in my pond. 🙂
But in all seriousness … what is the point of getting married if you still want to fish? Just to be clear, I am not talking about finding other people attractive but the need to go through all the behaviors to lure a fish on the line. And with my LO, OMG, the crap that man said to me. Raunchy, sexual. That kind of thing. Heavy flirtation, little notes, touching.
If a man has had a decent number of fish before he marries, doesn’t that desire ever die down a bit?
“If a man has had a decent number of fish before he marries, doesn’t that desire ever die down a bit?”
Being that outside of trying dating a bit in my early twenties, I was a virgin when we got married. And the dating I did do was mostly disastrous and why I gave up on it.
So that maybe why I subconsciously skirted the line. But I would never think of doing any of the things that you mentioned your LO did in reciprocation.
I think it was more the curiosity to figure out if our circumstances were different could I have lured her on the line? If that is what I was trying to do than it was with ways that would make her feel special and for her to notice that I noticed her. Bring her donuts for breakfast, her coffee from her favorite shop, eat where she wanted to for lunch.
I shook her hand the first time I met her in person long before the limerence. I would not think of touches. As that crosses a line I wasn’t even willing to do, even if she did. Which she didn’t. After the way her ex did her I just wanted to try and show her how a man should treat her by doing those things for her. So she would know she is special and not develop self doubt in her worth cause he’s a cheating piece of ****.
While my wife sits at home waiting for me. Irony I’m paying the price for right now still.
Adam,
My LO was very flirtatious. The way a man would talk to and interact with a woman he was interested in or tryng to pick. (I’m not implying he was limerent.)
It sounds like your limerence involved being emotionally attentive.
Snowphoenix,
” Liking “to be liked” by all”
That’s someone to avoid in general. Even as a friend. You want someone who’d rather be wanted or known than liked.
“which provoked a hurtful jealousy in me, which I almost never felt for anyone in my entire life…. ”
You weren’t jealous of his side chick when you met her? I would have been. I remember when new female employees would start at my job. I’d immediately wonder if my LO was talking with them, flirting with them, attracted to them, particuarly if they were attractive. I’d hear my guy friends talking about them and calling them “cute” and wonder if my LO felt the same. I was afraid his attention woule shift to someone else.
Strange in that I never really felt jealous of his wife. But she barely existed for me. He never talked about her, another startegic move on his part, I’m sure.
“I’d settle for EA, but clearly it’s not Sensor LO’s superficial or substantial goal.”
I’m the opposite. I wouldn’t settle for an EA. It would make me feel like he only saw me as friend. My ego wouldn’t allow it. 🙂
“If LO pulls out of a PA with you, and you still feel fine; then your cptsd must have been healed. ”
We never had a PA. Or an EA, really.
“Every time after “speaking” with you and others, I’ve got something clearer in my mind, known my current self better, and felt stronger walking in the right direction. It’s the benefit of LwL.”
That’s good. This site can be very beneficial.
@Marcia,
That’s someone to avoid in general. Even as a friend. You want someone who’d rather be wanted or known than liked.”
His confession that he likes “to be liked” and easily get “self-defensive” surprised me very much (I expressed so to him), since he’s very handsome, athletic, looking 20 yrs younger (than his age), highly achieved, and has a trophy family; I don’t know where his insecurity came from; I guessed from his dominating mother during his childhood.
On my side, as a semi-Stoic, I wish to be loved/desired only by people I really care for. I don’t know if I’d admire or respect those who want to be “wanted” or “known” — no one has control of those external factors. I admire people who is so confident and busy living in their own life that he couldn’t care less about what others think of them — they don’t live in other’s eyes whatever color they might be. I would not go to bed with a guy without a certain amount of admiration of his personality, no matter how (subjectively) gorgeous they may be. Somehow, my body and mind are inseparable.
“You weren’t jealous of his side chick when you met her? I would have been.”
I did get jealous of her (my first time), who was new teaching in god-knows which department (it’s a big institute). I saw him glimmeringly at her while chatting in the hallway (I was going 4th NC with LO at the time), so I turned away. I saw her a bit later downstairs and bumped into her alone two more times. She almost never appeared near LO’s office again for the past year. Previously seeing him flirting with other female colleagues, I never felt any jealous. But glimmering is very different than flirting — LO’s eyes were “turned on” like light bulbs.
“Strange in that I never really felt jealous of his wife. But she barely existed for me. He never talked about her, another strategic move on his part, I’m sure.”
The same here — never felt a bit jealous of his wife, although he could not stop talking about her, her personality, what they did together, how they met and why she’s his ideal and dream SD. Yet, he also told me about their relationship “issues” of the past two years (SD had to help her down-time xLO) and that both had extramarital “friendships” in the past, but denied any PA. I thought he was telling me he had a history of PAs so to “loosen me up”, because he knew that I’d never cross the line — I have made an oath to myself which still has not been broken despite several previous temptations.
In the past, if a LO had a girlfriend, I immediately walked away even at cost of my own health (I am very psychosomatic). I never dealt with any “taken” LO (unless they lied or hidden one). This LE is such an exception, so out of my character, maybe affected by my secret lymphoma development from 2018 – 2020?
I don’t believe at all “twin flame” theory, yet somehow I could not shake off the feeling that I had known LO even before I glimmered at him back in May of 2017. Five months later in September, he caught me stealthily smiling at him for the first time, then immediately “affection-bombed” me in order “to be liked”.
As a Sensor, he “limerented” for my affection, not ME. (Thanks to DrL’s article; otherwise, I still wouldn’t understand what had happened and why.) My LE for the first 4 years was mild, because I got his “admiration” (his word) and attention (dopamine fix), he my exclusive focus and affection (probably also dopamine fix?), without lies or PA. He began to lie to me when that side chick appeared; then LE escalated. I went 3 NC, and now we are chitchatting again with smiles as if nothing ever happened in the past 6 years! With LE knowledge, LwL, my meditation, and LC, I’m feeling so much more at ease.
“I’m the opposite. I wouldn’t settle for an EA. It would make me feel like he only saw me as friend. My ego wouldn’t allow it. 🙂”
As a “frightened” LO in the past, I have been “courted or pursued” by all sorts of men primarily for PA. The most rarely saw or treated me as a person who had thoughts, emotions, and “lone-wolf” personality (cptsd affected) and did not bother taking time to get to know me or truly cared for what I needed (except Platonic LO#1). I felt very sad about or hated the dynamic.
My mind/heart desired so much to be genuinely cared, understood, and connected prior to my body. Mindless sexual connection, rarely “superb” or adequate, just made me feel bored, lonely, uncared, or used. I wanted EA more than PA in general; but my glimmer has its own design and direction…
“We never had a PA. Or an EA, really.”
I know you did not. But you seemed to think that if you had PA with your married LO, you would feel satisfied as long as it could last, while I was saying that if he pulls away afterwards, you (definitely me) may feel hurt because of our cptsd history.
@Mila
“that happened with my first LO. Now I think he is a narcissistic arrogant person and I don’t like him very much.
Even when I was limerent we fought a lot because we had such different views on almost everything.”
Oh gosh, I had one of those! He’s the reason I know all about narcissism now. Thought we were great friends, brother/sister (despite the LE), he treated me like a queen, flirted heavily–then started devaluing me and picking on everything I did. There are more things I don’t want to go into, just suffice to say that he wasn’t at all what I thought he was. Limerence can blind you.
@Serial Limerent,
Hope, I got the right Reply button now🤨
My narcissistic LO never even treated me like a queen 😆although I believe he was seriously limerent in the beginning.
He never picked on me either, though. He was generally much more taking than giving in our relationship and not very loving, although he needed me somehow, and I can say that there were also quite positive things he did for me and how he behaved towards me.
But it wasn’t really his behavior to me that irks me now, it‘s his general attitude to people and life.
He‘s so arrogant and judgemental, but never able to criticize himself. He thinks he‘s better than all the others and has no respect.
Now many people at work dislike him because of that, and I‘m one of them (unfortunately, from my 3 LOs he‘s the only one who didn’t change jobs 🙄).
But I feel that my dislike is not fair, it’s also fueled by regretting this LE and my feelings.
I really want to be fair towards him. My limerence was my problem, and he actually never behaved really bad towards me, I shouldn’t blame him for my limerence and now my embarrassment over it.
So I struggle with this, it’s so easy to just put all the blame on him, given that he is such an assholey person, as I see now that the pink glasses are removed from my eyes (and being on my second LE after this…🙈)
It wouldn’t be fair though.
Snowphoenix,
“On my side, as a semi-Stoic, I wish to be loved/desired only by people I really care for. I don’t know if I’d admire or respect those who want to be “wanted” or “known” — no one has control of those external factors.”
I meant sexually wanted by someone you’re really into and known by that person. Understood by them. But I’d take some fans, in general. To be wanted as a woman, in general. I wouldn’t turn that down. 🙂
” I would not go to bed with a guy without a certain amount of admiration of his personality, no matter how (subjectively) gorgeous they may be. Somehow, my body and mind are inseparable.”
I think you can respect someone on two levels. As a man and and as a person. I had an LO who I respected as a man … he was very confident, very single-minded and driven in his career, very adept at approaching and chatting up women. But as a person, no. I wouldn’t trust him farther than I could throw him. He was the kind of guy who’d hit on your friends if you were all hanging out and you left briefly to go to the bar and get drinks.
“Previously seeing him flirting with other female colleagues, I never felt any jealous.”
I didn’t like my LO talking to any women. 🙂
” But glimmering is very different than flirting — LO’s eyes were “turned on” like light bulbs.”
So was he glimmering or flirting? “Light bulbs” implies glimmering.
“although he could not stop talking about her, her personality, what they did together, how they met and why she’s his ideal and dream SD.”
That would have bothered me. I do not talk about other men with someone I’m into.
“I thought he was telling me he had a history of PAs so to “loosen me up”, because he knew that I’d never cross the line —”
I’ve had guys do that to me, too. Tell me about all their other indiscretions or even the sex they have with their wives! Why would I want to hear that?! Hearing about other women turns me off.
“This LE is such an exception, so out of my character, maybe affected by my secret lymphoma development from 2018 – 2020?”
Not necessarily. Maybe you just liked him for some reason. The older you get, the fewer guys you’ll meet who are available.
“My mind/heart desired so much to be genuinely cared, understood, and connected prior to my body. ”
Yeah. But I’ve never come close to that. The “understood” part.
“But you seemed to think that if you had PA with your married LO, you would feel satisfied as long as it could last, while I was saying that if he pulls away afterwards, you (definitely me) may feel hurt because of our cptsd history.”
I would have been very hurt, but no more hurt than having him act like he was going to do it, go right up to the line, go over the line, and then pull back. Apparently, raunchy flirtation and attention was all he wanted. That actually hurt me, too. Because he was satisfied with so little and wanted so little from me.
@Marcia,
“I meant sexually wanted by someone you’re really into and known by that person. Understood by them. But I’d take some fans, in general. To be wanted as a woman, in general. I wouldn’t turn that down. “
You sound like the women in Annie Ernaux’s “Simple Passion”. I actually envy her ability to enjoy her physical but mental/emotional unquieted limerence experiences; I don’t think it’s the cup of tea of many single women. But if a worthy LOI am “really into” wants me equally as much as I want him, just physically, I’m NOT sure if I’d turn that down. If one is able, then she would NOT in limerence, which desires the same intensity of emotional reciprocation by definition.
“To be wanted as a woman in general” has been rarely an issue to me, but as a woman and a person simultaneously has always been. Vice versa, if a man is with me but his person is not, I’d feel terribly lonely and being used as a sexual object (at most no pain and no lasting joy), even if I’m “really into” them. I know this by having experienced it with LO #2, 4.5, 5, & 6, and other dates/lovers, even if SE was heavenly. That is perhaps a sad consequence of having cptsd.
For the sake of argument, think of what happened to Marilyn Monroe? How many fans did she naturally “acquire” in her short life? How many men and women knew and understood her? Did she feel womanly fulfilled after being embraced by Kennedy brothers and all her husbands? If her father were around in her childhood and youth, if she got a PhD on her merits and not worked in entrainment indistry, I bet at least she would NOT take her own life at such a young age.
“I think you can respect someone on two levels. As a man and and as a person.”
Without “his person around”, I can’t respect a man just as a “man”; that would be like dealing with a “flower vase”, possibly with rotten leafs hidden in the bottom of it (in your example).
“I didn’t like my LO talking to any women. “
Flirting is not that big of deal, superficially validating one’s womanhood or manhood. Relating and connecting between men and women probably need such a lubrication. l never minded it, especially if LO is already taken. I was never jealous of other women although many jealous of or even hostile to me, even if their LO or SO just took one slightly longer look at me. If a man is single and heavily flirty, I walk away immediately. As a true limerent, particularly a lone-wolf type, I unawarely desired exclusive emotional reciprocation since LE #1.
“So was he glimmering or flirting? “Light bulbs” implies glimmering.”
He was glimmering at that side chick, but flirted with many other female colleagues, one of which was hostile to me. He also showed signs of “jealousy” seeing me interacting with other male colleagues — either cut in our conversations without being invited or speculated us in a distance.
“although he could not stop talking about her, her personality, what they did together, how they met and why she’s his ideal and dream SD.” That would have bothered me. I do not talk about other men with someone I’m into.
I thought he wanted to portray himself as a model father and husband. Due to his insecurity, a social & moral mask is very important to LO. But I also perceive it as a part of meaningful friendship. If one, man or woman, could talk with me about their personal or family life, their concerns and vulnerabilities, I’d feel respected, valued, needed. That’s genuine friendship I desire with both men (ideally LO) and women. I tried it during each limerence, but rarely worked. Once limerence is involved, friendship was either missing from the beginning or casted away later; only addiction, obsession, helpless rumination, deep insecurity, are involved.
“My mind/heart desired so much to be genuinely cared, understood, and connected prior to my body. ” “Yeah. But I’ve never come close to that. The “understood” part.”
It’s said that no two human beings could ever truly understand each other. At his death bed, Goethe, despite his huge popularity, said (with huge frustration) something like: all my life no one had understood me, and I no one else. So I’d be content if 50% of evolving me could be understood by anyone.
“I would have been very hurt, but no more hurt than having him act like he was going to do it, go right up to the line, go over the line, and then pull back. Apparently, raunchy flirtation and attention was all he wanted. That actually hurt me, too. Because he was satisfied with so little and wanted so little from me.”
I’m totally with you here here, ouch! It’s just too painful either way! Therefore, with a “happily” married man/women, there is other way out for limerents, except exit limerence and LO’s orbit completely! In my case, there was never “raunchy” or even mild flirtation and attention, both of us were very “proper”, except his being physically aroused, at the first two years of mutual attraction and affection, could be evidently detected….
Now, all is gone with wind and I’m trying to get both my feet out of this lengthy LE and wonder everyday whether a genuine friendship is possible, since there was no EA or PA for feel awkward about. Once in 2021 he asked me directly, “Is this an affair?” “No. I don’t think so.” He then said, “I don’t want this to affect my 22 years of marriage.” I thought to fall in love/limerence with a married LO is so morally WRONG and embarrassing, so denied it repeatedly and heavily berated myself for my unfathomable, uncontrollable LE until I stumbled into LwL….
The feeling of unwanted and unneeded by LO still hurts me daily (Luckily my mediation can dull it somewhat), so I know my LE is not over yet. And I can’t approach him to either disclose or talk about an authentic friendship, which I so wish to have with LO. Now, we just chitchat about all sort of superficial stuff again as if the past 6 years never existed. I still get dopamine fix even after 6.5 years, but not seeking it out.
Thanks LE. Makes me happy that you ‘get it’. 😁
My current limerence is for my longtime friend. I try to keep the friendship, not to disclose even though I think he is limerent too at the moment, and I think I will manage.
It‘s manageable.
Simply because I had these other LEs, found this site, understood that it‘s not about the LO, it‘s about me, and I feel this time I can manage to let this dangerous phase pass by. I just have to, or I‘ll lose this friend.
Also, he‘s quite passive but a loyal friend. He‘s not courageous enough to disclose first, so if I manage to keep still, nothing will happen.
Especially after tonight, I really think, we‘ll come through this unscathed.
So I think, there might be quite a few unicorns cantering about here.
So were you friends first and then years later you became limerent? That’s personally never happened to me. I become limerent pretty quickly after meeting the person, and the guy friends I’ve had … I wasn’t interested in them sexually, and that didn’t change over time.
We‘ve been friends and colleagues for years. When I met him he glimmered a bit, but I was full on in a very demanding other LE, so we just became friends.
The reason why I developed limerence now is that he changed jobs and will most probably move out of town next year. I suddenly got really scared to lose him, and I think it‘s the same for him. (The difference is that I suddenly craved physical contact, and I think he doesn’t, at least not as urgent as me sometimes..)
But that’s why I think we can overcome it- it‘s tied to the situation, maybe the anxiety will die down once he moved. Also we know each other so well that we know what we don’t like so much about the other, where we are not compatible.
The funny thing is, despite the no contact rule, in this case, the constant contact per text etc helps me. When he‘s reliably texting and answering, I feel calm and don’t think about him so much. When he suddenly ceases to text I get anxious and the ruminations start.
I don’t know if this is really good or just a delusion on my part.
Mila,
“The difference is that I suddenly craved physical contact, and I think he doesn’t, at least not as urgent as me sometimes..”
What’s your situation? Are you avaialable? Is he?
@Marcia,
both married with children. I love my SO and he would never leave his, I know him.
So, no availability on both sides, and a lot of potential to hurt a lot of people if I gave in to my cravings.
Ah. Well, thus my feelings about limerence and friendship. 🙂
I just think a close friendship between either one or two taken people where sexual attraction could develop is not a good idea.
Unless the SOs are ok with it.
I think the sexual attraction stems from the limerence. Before, I just had some kind of tenderness for him.
I want to believe that the physical attraction can fade back into tenderness.
We‘ll see how it goes, if you are right that it’s not possible or if I succeed in pulling that back into friendship.. want to make a bet😆?
Mila,
“I want to believe that the physical attraction can fade back into tenderness.”
But can limerence fade into the background without decisive action to snuff it out? Limerence is a lot stronger than physical attraction.
“We‘ll see how it goes, if you are right that it’s not possible or if I succeed in pulling that back into friendship.. want to make a bet😆?”
I’m not trying to be right or wrong. But it’s just a friend, right? People may disagree with me on this, but friends come and go. I’d be more concerned about the damage limerence could do to an SO, whether you act on it or not.
@Marcia
Based on Tunnov and DrL, it seems that people are either limerent or non-limerent whether they bump into LO not. The glimmer is the key element to turn on that light built in a limerent’s head, beginning to spin them around and around before they are fully aware of what’s going on.
My glimmer always set out before I even met LO, who was totally unaware of my trivial existence at the time, and after I had enough time just to spot his eyes (or maybe height). It seemed to have so little to do with sexuality (I glimmered at my 1st LO without any knowledge of sex)… It’s LO’s aura with their “halo head”…
Marcia,
Well, yeah, that‘s it. I didn’t want to either. Or one half wanted and the other not, it‘s like that again now.
It’s not that I wouldn’t know what is right, and in this and the last LE I really toe the line, my actions are still ok and within normal friendship area, but my thoughts are not.
Mila,
“Well, yeah, that‘s it. I didn’t want to either. Or one half wanted and the other not.”
I felt the same way. I actually think part of me dug the conflict he created in me.
I was also really angry at him, mixed with this still-nutty euphoria at seeing him. So I’d be dying for him to talk to me and then annoyed as hell when he said what he always did, which was absolutely nothing. Of course, I was waiting for these big declarations of feelings.
Marcia,
yes, exactly, I was pining for contact, and when we met he managed to piss me off with one comment or opinion in the first ten minutes.
Which made the pining even more agonizing somehow.
I think the conflict was part of the sexual attraction, there was a slight aggressive note about it which sometimes can be arousing.
But since I‘m out of this LE I see his whole personality, see how blind I was and cannot believe how I could have misinterpreted him so much.
Actually maybe I‘d be curious if it‘s the same for him with me, if I wouldn’t now shy away immediately from any interest in his mind/brain.
Mila,
“But since I‘m out of this LE I see his whole personality, see how blind I was and cannot believe how I could have misinterpreted him so much.”
Me, too. I do that with my LO.
I still wonder (though I’ll never know) how many more of us there were. How many other women had he intentially entranced? A serial entrancer, probably.
@Marcia,
he always was a very good friend, something you don’t find often in your life, someone who doesn’t come and go but is there for good.
But you are right, SO is more important. We have our issues and he‘s away workwise a lot at the moment, which makes it easy for the limerence to fill my head.
I just feel that this time I can see all that more clearly and am getting more control over myself. That’s why I hope I can snuff out the limerence at some point without having to snuff out the friendship. It will help that I will see him much less next year.
Mila,
“he always was a very good friend, something you don’t find often in your life, someone who doesn’t come and go but is there for good.”
I mean, I can’t define for you what is a “good” friend but the kind I was referring to in my post toJaideux … the BFF kind, for lack of a better description … I had one who was long distance but we talked on the phone at least a couple of times a week. We knew what was going on in each others’ lives. Checked on each other. Supported each other. That level of friendship … I’d have a hard time letting go.
But I heard from another friend the other day. A short text to say hi. It’s been maybe a month since I’ve heard from him. I think we emailed back and forth a couple of times a month ago. Maybe we hang out a few times a years. A couple of phone calls a year. I’ve known him for years. I’m fond of him, but we’re not tight enough that I’d fight to keep the friendship going if I became going if I became limerent.
Marcia,
He is the BFF kind. He also was my colleague and we worked fantastically together, which was the reason for friendship in the first place. Now we don’t work together anymore , although there is a slight chance that he might come back end of next year. If he doesn’t, he will move away for good.
This might change the friendship, of course.
At the moment he really is my BFF, we text daily and check on each other. The only subject where I hold back now with him is SO, I feel it’s unfair as long as I‘m limerent to discuss issues with LO with him. There were some traces of complaining about his and my SO‘s prolonged work related absences before, but I decided to skip that subject. It feels betraying and too dangerous.
I experienced some BFFs turning into the other kind you described, we took different routes in life, somehow evolved in different directions and the former connection was not felt anymore.
So of course I don’t know how it will develop. But I really hope he‘ll stay in my life.
*I meant „discuss issues with SO“, not LO
Mila,
“At the moment he really is my BFF, we text daily and check on each other. ”
Ah, I see. That kind of friendship is hard to find.
Were you attracted to him when you met him? I find it difficult to become friends with men I’m attracted to. I don’t feel comfortable around them. Like I can be myself, so a friendship would be difficult. Limerence would make a friendship impossible.
I think for limerents who may not have had a close friendship (or a friendship at all) with their LOs before limerence, they feel a closeness to the LO because of the limerence. As Dr. L noted, limerence is an onslaught of arousal and reward that can trick us into thinking there’s more between us and our LOs. Some of the limerence has to die down to really determine if there is a true connection.
However, it sounds like you already had a strong connection before limerence, so you know there’s a bond there and it would be a big loss to no longer have him in your life.
Hi Marcia,
when I met him first I was in another LE that was quite consuming and intensive with a reciprocating but quite narcissistic and elusive LO, so there was no room for other limerent feelings. He glimmered a bit and I found him attractive in a mild, tender way, but the other LE killed every possibility there. I always felt very comfortable around him, even now.
In this he is really different from my other LEs, I know what you mean by being attracted and not being comfortable. I had this with the other LOs.
But this time it‘s quite another mixture of feelings, it’s almost SO- like, someone you know very well and love, where it would feel natural to touch him and be intimate. It‘s new for me, I have to say.
When I think of it, my three LEs were all different in my physical or mental desires and attractions, just as the LOs were different.
The common thing was me wanting them to reciprocate and give me love and affection, which is basically an egotistical thing to want and has nothing to do with LOs and all with my own psyche.
Mila,
“The common thing was me wanting them to reciprocate and give me love and affection, which is basically an egotistical thing to want and has nothing to do with LOs and all with my own psyche.”
So now that you know this, are you able to recognize it the next time around? Sense a glimmer is forming and back away? I didn’t know what limerence was until somewhat recently, but I now do. I know it’s a pattern for me, I know the kinds of guys who trigger it, where I have to be in life for it to be triggered … I’m hoping the next time I sense even the smallest glimmer and if it’s for someone who is not avaialable in any way, I back the hell up … like the sound the garbage truck makes when it backs out of your driveway … BEEP, BEEP, BEEP … ain’t going to do this to myself again. 🙂 No can do.
Marcia,
I really really pray that I‘m wiser now and that I can prevent it happening again.
The thing is, when I read my diary, I realize that I realized the danger of falling into limerence with my current friend-LO quite early, and wrote that I will not let it happen, and it still happened.
But then, it was a special case because there was no backing away possible (I like that garbage truck image. Will keep it in mind for the next glimmer!) because he was my BFF.
I cannot say I know the type I fall for because all three LOs I had were completely different. But I hope I’ll recognize my own state of mind and remember all the heartache and hassle and endless time wasting and back out.
I Wish the same for you!
Mila,
I have to be honest with you. If I started dating someone seriously, backing away would be imperative if I caught the glimmer for someone else. And I’d expect an SO to do the same if he found himself in a similiar situation. I’m not sure how you filter for that during the first few dates. The questions would be a little strange. 🙂
Marcia,
And no one would be able to foresee how he would behave. He can say „I’d never“ and be surprised by himself a decade later. As I was.
Rules are rules, and I don’t break them, but feelings? Hard to control them, especially when you didn’t know about limerence. Now I do, and it’s still hard. It‘s not something I chose for myself or knew about myself.
You cannot really know when you‘re dating. But maybe you can know if you both would still respect each other and cope when/if limerence hit one or the other.
Mila,
“Rules are rules, and I don’t break them, but feelings? Hard to control them, especially when you didn’t know about limerence. ”
I didn’t know about limerence but I knew I felt really strongly for someone who was married. Getting another job right away might have been difficult (so going totally NC was not an immediate option) but I sought him out, I flirted with him, I tried to move things forward. And that was a choice. I chose to indulge it.
Marcia,
of course one always has a choice. But what sounds theoretically so easy is not so easy when you are in the strongest limerent phase, your mind is completely overcome by it and you’ve got the feeling that this is unique in your life, that only this will make you happy etcetc
Of course you are still an adult, still have the choice, nothing forces you to keep the contact. I wasn’t strong enough, I have to say, and I’m certainly not proud of my LEs, that’s why I‘m here.
But somehow I also feel that it was a part of me that belonged to me and my life and didn’t let itself be shut down.
Mila,
“But somehow I also feel that it was a part of me that belonged to me and my life and didn’t let itself be shut down.”
Not entirely sure what you mean but for me, anyway, it’s not that an SO would become limerent but how he responds to the glimmer. Seeking the person out, emailing, texting, having lunches, heavily flirting … that’s the behavior of someone who is pursuing.
Marcia,
well, if you have this urgent feeling that you must seek out this person to be happy…I don’t think I can explain it to you if it hasn’t happened to you. Also, if you have to have lunches and work with that person anyway, the „pursuing“ is not that active.
I just feel that you want to say that a sane person should be able to stop at the glimmer if he/she has an SO. But I’m not sane, I‘m limerent and that’s why I‘m here and why I‘m trying to get control.
Mila,
“I just feel that you want to say that a sane person should be able to stop at the glimmer if he/she has an SO.”
I am saying that, yes. Or a single person if the LO is taken or a bad choice.
I knew I was doing too much. I he knew my LO was doing too much. I could have put up a lot stronger barriers. I could have avoided him. I could have looked for another job … a lot sooner than I did. But I didn’t want to.
Marcia,
I think I answered you in the wrong place. This is really confusing here:)
Jaideux
What exactly is a “unicorn development” ?
Thank you…
“What exactly is a “unicorn development” ?”
@frederico.
Unicorn = rare, unusual, extraordinary, uncommon. 😉
Thanks Sammy! 😊
Hi ,
Be careful when using the word “ unicorn” in relationships for it nowadays has a different meaning:
“Where an individual, often referred to as a “unicorn”, willingly joins an existing couple.
It has gained popularity in recent years , is most commonly associated with bisexual woman who becomes part of a heterosexual couples relationships.
It’s a pity for its real meaning is so beautiful and mysterious. Just being twisted nowadays.
Have a good Sunday.
@Jaideux.
“Thanks Sammy! 😊”
You’re welcome, Jaideux. The unicorn analogy is such an INFJ/INFP thing to say. No, just kidding. But maybe also not kidding. Good grief, why are there so many literate and imaginative people in this joint?
😆
Nisor,
wow, didn’t know that. I never stop learning..
I’m close friends with LO1 and have been for many years, but only because he has made a real effort to be an actual friend to me, and he pulls his weight at maintaining boundaries. I fully admit it’s a unicorn type of a situation, but it happened to me!
I am aiming long term for this. I would love to read the unicorn post, can anyone link my to it? Thanks I would love to read it.
I just meant that my situation with LO1 is extremely unusual, like finding a unicorn.
Hi Tide,
How are you feeling today?
There’re a few previous Posts on LOs as friends that you can look at:
1).Living with Limerence/Can we just be friends (March 13,2017)
2) Living with limerence/I’m totally over this. Let’s go for coffee (September 18, 2917
3) Living with Limerence/Limerence and the friend zone
As for me, I could not ever be friends with lo because he’s my beloved. I admit it! Cannot ever see him as a friend and not desire a romantic relationship. So, it’s better to keep the sweet memories and let the rest be history. So he was, a memory, until I had a dream with him, it ignited what was buried for forty nine years! And limerence was born, unfortunately, that night. But I have had a three year exclusive/romantic relationship with lo before, was reciprocated and it ended up in limbo. It was too deep to uproot those three years now. No friendship possible, we both have LTR/SOs. So it is NC forever… painful but it is subsiding a little bit. Working on it like everybody else…
Best wishes to you, strength and courage.
Hello. Can’t believe how active this post is. Day 3 NC odly feeling ok. A hole in me a small sense of loss. But then it took 5 days before I felt terrible before. I worry about the future, stupid I know. Being just over 50 and this is the first time this has happened my main concern is this isn’t just for Christmas but for life. Will I always now be broken. Can I not be friends with another woman any more in fear of becoming L. My life isn’t exactly great. 24 years with my SO and in that time I had 1 friend I could confide in , and I just went NC with her. Just no one else I trust not tell anyone.
I only just realized that there is a blog post connected to the unicorn comment I commented on:)
I checked all the bad and good sign lists, and I‘m not there yet, but it’s possible, I‘ll get there, it will be fine…
Not safe yet, but much calmer and better resolve.
Sorry what are the signs good and bad, still new here and exploring answers.
Sorry, I simplified it a bit. In the blog post under 2. and 3. are lists, one for „suspicious reasons for wanting friendship“
and one for signs that you are truly over an LO.
I meant these.
Frederico,
I guess what is meant is: it is as improbable and rare that a LE ends in a normal friendship between Ex-limerent and LO as it is that a normal nondescript horse suddenly develops a shiny horn, canters about at moonlight and can only be tamed by beautiful virgins😎
Thanks to everyone for the clarification. I had not heard the expression before and, when I looked it up, I thought it meant… what Nisor said 🦄
So I’m no longer in touch with my LO but I’ve still not fully shaken thoughts of him. There is virtually no day dreaming anymore and I see the relationship for what it is – sth in the past, that didn’t work and died an early death. But I’ve remained attached to the idea of sending him a Xmas message. (Yes I’m aware this is the summer.) I realise this is pointless – he has shown no interest to remain friends and it would be unlikely to be good for me. So I need to figure out how to accept that I will not text again. That it’s over. And let it go. Hopefully with time, but I figured posting this here would help me feel accountable.
Barbara,
thinking about sending him a Christmas card in September… hm:)
might be that you are not totally over it…
I would go by gut feeling with the message thing. Either you are able to diss the idea now for ever, otherwise you‘ll hang in limbo until Christmas. That would be the best option, but not if you get the same thing again at Easter:)
Or, if you feel that you need to send this message so that you can feel you have a normal lukewarm acquaintance thing going with him instead of a dramatic NC- get out if my life- thing, (sometimes that is just the other side of limerence- like hate instead of love, but still intensive stuff involved),
then send it, and if you are lucky he doesn’t reply at all, or he replies in a way you realize that it‘s all in your head and he‘s not worth it.
If it goes not so well, he will reply in an ambiguous way that fires your limerence again and you‘re back in the game.
These are the risks.
It would be best not to write and go on with your life, I guess.
I’m a sort of a FWB with HSP LO #5, and can discuss w/ him in depth about a wide range of topics, (not his dating life or my LO #7), much more than I was in that painful limerence with him years ago.
However, as I mentioned before, we never had the glimmer for each other in the first place (although we are both limerent type). We both were in our lowest point for different reasons; so trauma-boned briefly, which made me clingy to him and then forced to leave by his marriage (divorced later). Then he got into a major, “unforgettable” LE/LO, which devastated him. He came back to me first time right after his failed LE, which hurt me again since my LE for him was not totally over even after narc LO #6 was completely gone. Six months later, Sensor LO#7 came along permanently pushed LO #5 out of my system.
Last year when LO #5 came back for the 2nd time (when I was busy “scolding” and going NC w/ LO #7”), I finally became peaceful and content with our mutually caring friendship, I had zero pining or LE for him. Still we are just too incompatible to further this lukewarm friendship, although we are in the same professional field and both have cptsd related chronic depression.
Therefore, I wonder if LE #5 could be counted as a TRUE “limerence” experience. The limerence required Glimmer simply could NOT be cultivated, in my case.
Tell me how many limerence-go-around one serial limerent could ride on? 😆 I’m really mocking at myself now…
Song of the Blog: “Why Can’t We Be Friends?” – War (1975)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH0Qda32IKM
Why..?
Sometimes, you just can’t. Or, you just don’t want to be.
Another song:
Just wanna be friends /
Basixx
How can one be friends when one is so much in love with them?
This blog post, and the very interesting comments, has drawn me back to spending time on lwl. I feel conflicted.
I have two good friends who were LOs to me forty years ago and thirty years ago. I think the way that I behaved towards them then cemented the friendships. I now simply regard them as friends whom I see from time time.
My current LE started from a glimmer nearly four years ago and I have, in the last year, tried to follow the hardline advice regarding NC. The limerence was undisclosed but was clearly (with hindsight) mutual for a while. It has been intense. I am single and thirty years older than LO, who has a SO. LO was a neighbour but moved to a different town, reducing contact considerably.
If I could turn the clock back, even with LO’s “love” and kindness, I would have resisted those friendly chats and hugs.
After many months of excruciating NC (and occasional bleating on this forum), I have decided to remember birthdays and Christmas. Yes, I too have thought about the Christmas card @Barbara. In fact I have already written it, ripped it up and written a new one. I am clearly not out of the limerent woods, especially when I look at the bullet points in Dr.L’s post – some of them made me blush with embarrassment.
My current plan is to carry on with the cards and occasional messages in the hope that, given time, all this silliness will fade and we may be left with a valuable friendship.
There are risks. I need, as ever, to be very aware of the feelings of LO’s SO. They are busy; I am retired and older. There is geographical distance. Total NC felt excruciating. This feels like a less painful option but it is humiliating because in reality I just depend on crumbs here and there and my very occasional messages are sometimes ignored. I am a bit less grumpy though….
Frederico,
is she writing back, is she keeping contact too?
My last LO also moved away and I‘m the one who keeps the friendship alive. He almost never initiates contact, but he‘s always happy when I do and I know that I‘m very high in his estimation, he will prioritize seeing me when I come to his town etc.
But it‘s still me who puts some effort in staying friends. I don’t mind because actually I feel better when I know we have an amicable and warm relationship, and since I‘m in another LE (I‘m great at transference 🙄)it all lost the sting and urgency.
What I want to say is that I understand that no contact is sometimes more intense than loose contact, and I understand the strategy of keeping loose contact until all is better.
But having written two Christmas cards already is still quite intense, I‘d say…
Me, I‘m not as upbeat as yesterday, I still think I will manage to keep the friendship, but I have to admit that as Frederico, I get flustered at some points on Dr L‘s list.
One point is „ You feel no discomfort around their spouse or significant other“. Our families often met in the past, and we are all supposed to be friends, and now I feel awkward and guilty, but defiant when I think of her, which is stupid because nothing happened, and she did nothing to feel defiant about, apart from being married to LO.
Were you also kind of friends with your LO‘s SO, given that you were neighbours?
Mila
Ah, yes, I do understand the “ You feel no discomfort around their spouse or significant other” point. I was kind of friends with LO’s SO but most of the interactions started with LO.
The honest answer to your first question is that, these days, the occasional contact usually starts with me. I think there may be some embarrassment on LO’s part and it is arguable that I should simply leave them alone.
I’m sorry you’re not feeling as upbeat as you were yesterday.
Federico,
But I understood it was never disclosed, where would her embarrassment stem from? Because she was limerent too and is now embarrassed for herself?
I think one sign of being too much invested linerencewise is reading too much into the behavior of the LO, or at least giving it too much importance.
Maybe she‘s like my LO2- bad at keeping contact, but still happy when you initiate it. Bad at keeping contact probably not because she‘s embarrassed, but because as you said she‘s busy and in another phase of life than you. And, let’s face it, you don’t take as much space in her head as she takes up in yours.
So I wouldn’t worry too much if she‘s embarrassed and if you should leave them alone, just do what feels good for you. If she really never answers and blocks you out, then it might be time to stop, ok.
I‘m not as upbeat because suddenly I fear that I‘m too smug in having this much contact with him (mostly by text, but had a nice evening yesterday cooking for him with children but without SOs), and it‘s easy to boast about keeping the friendship when I always get reliable food for a low-simmering limerence and when I seldom see him with his or my SO, thus avoiding pain and awkwardness.
Maybe I‘m not moving forward, maybe I’m just in denial 🙈
Mila
Frederico can crucify me later for speaking on his behalf … Frederico is homosexual, limerent for a married heterosexual man. *Hides ISP number*
Frederico good to see you posting again. Don’t be too hard on me. 🙂
@Adam,
Thanks for the clarification:)
So just put „he“ instead of „she“, but now I understand more about potential embarrassment if he‘s hetero. Still think you shouldn’t think too much „for“ him. Just do what you feel is good for your peace of mind.
Mila
In Frederico’s defense, as a heterosexual man many of his LO’s behavior seem very bizarre to me. Maybe his LO is closeted. Or bisexual. But some of the behaviors he displayed are just strange. And very confusing and uncertain. So I understand Frederico’s confusion and dilimeia.
I have, as my wife says, “celebrity man crushes” (that she teases me about) but to me that’s just recognizing a man is handsome. You don’t have to be homosexual to see that as far as I am concerned.
I’ve seen all of Jason Statham’s movies. :-/
Adam,
I actually don’t think Frederico needs to be defended at all, he seems to have behaved more mature than many, especially me🙄
But his LO as you describe him sounds like the perfect limerence-enhancing LO, mysterious, uncertain, confusing …
To hell with all that limerence crap.
I put my LO on silent on WhatsApp and will go to bed now without texting good night.
@federico
“This feels like a less painful option but it is humiliating because in reality I just depend on crumbs here and there and my very occasional messages are sometimes ignored”
I know just how you feel. However, I have decided that, in my case, I am unashamed of my passions and (very) occasional divulgences in this regard. If its not often, almost never, it is almost certainly not intrusive. Rather its part of life’s rich tapestry. Agony, ecstasy, and everything in between.
About his SO, absolutely its important to remain distant and respectful, for their sake. But who is to say how important it can be for someone to know that they are ‘loved’. Even SO benefits, in theory, from the affirmation that brings?
Lavishing lots of love on my SO, my child and my cat as well.
@frederico
“This feels like a less painful option but it is humiliating because in reality I just depend on crumbs here and there and my very occasional messages are sometimes ignored”
I know just how you feel. However, I have decided that, in my case, I am unashamed of my passions and (very) occasional divulgences in this regard. If its not often, almost never, it is almost certainly not intrusive. Rather its part of life’s rich tapestry. Agony, ecstasy, and everything in between.
About his SO, absolutely its important to remain distant and respectful, for their sake. But who is to say how important it can be for someone to know that they are ‘loved’. Even SO benefits, in theory, from the affirmation that brings?
Lavishing lots of love on my SO, my child and my cat as well.
I am genuinely touched, Bewitched, that you should take the trouble to comment.
Your observations are thought-provoking and very helpful to me. I appreciate them.
Thank you.
It does happen…
I have had a post-limerence friendship when much younger. We were good friends long before I became limerent for him. Since were both single, I disclosed but was kindly and decisively rejected. Soon after, he started up with a new girlfriend, someone I could see was a better match for him than I was. The friendship felt a bit weird for a few weeks but the absolute death of hope killed the fantasy in its tracks for me and I gradually started to see my real, nice but flawed, friend again. Our friendship resumed pretty much as before. I always had a small soft spot for him but recognised the real person (not the object) was not right for me romantically.
Allie 1,
this gives me hope. I just hope I‘ll manage without disclosing and being rejected.
I actually have a friend who disclosed to me but already knew that there was no chance and was already resigned to it. So we talked about it quite calmly. We are still friends, but there was a time of lesser contact. I haven’t asked him when he stopped feeling that way and I don’t dare really, we have such a good connection at the moment, not too close but still warm. Don’t want to wake old lions. (I‘m sure that’s a wrong expression. Sleeping lions? Dogs? Old dogs, Pandora‘s lions in a box?😂)
I had no idea that disclosing was risky business. My LO has an SO but not married. She was having some issues there. She not happy and doesn’t believe he is her life long partner. I’m married. I told her of my Limerence. We are at the two ends of a country. We had one chance to meet and it didn’t happen. I haven’t actually met her for 30 years. We’ve never spoken on the phone or face time. None of that stopped us getting to know each other. I was honest with my feelings that they weren’t love but L. She was a bit taken a back at first but understood it was me not her. I really appreciated that she didn’t run. She and I read up on the subject. I went off on the defensive for a few days in denyal and realised that hurt and damage was doing to myself. I want rejected I was understood. She also realised that the only way to help me was to block me if I agreed. I did. And here we are. I’m now doing everything I can. Exercising more, journally and trying to keep busy at much as I can. If I get any hint of sadness ill work out, the longer the work out the longer the mood stays clear. I’m going to be one lean 50 yr old I can tell you. I find driving a trigger, I don’t like it. I have to drive the SO around due to issues sadly. Stay positive everyone!
Mila and Allie 1
Your experiences and comments are insightful and helpful. Thank you so much for posting them.
Adam:
SEPTEMBER 17, 2023 AT 6:09 PM
Erm, yes, guilty as charged. You’ve really got to love Adam, my kind and noble friend!
This made me smile – first time today, as it happens.
Mila says
SEPTEMBER 17, 2023 AT 6:49 PM
Such kind and helpful words, Mila. Thank you so much x
Frederico,
Nothing to thank for, I‘m not sure if it‘s a help at all, seeing that I cannot solve my own limerences…
One thing I ruminate about your case is if the limerence wouldn’t have died much sooner if he had stayed your neighbor. Maybe the distance kind of puts him on a pedestal, he‘s not there with all his flaws, he stays the shiny LO in your mind, never changing, never compared to reality.
Federico,
just saw your other thanks (6.35), you really made me happier in my heart right now, I have to thank you!
If I ever want to be a Quasimodo holding an unrequited love for a Sensor or Narc LO, I’ll think of the 2nd photo of this blog titled “ A FRIEND IN NEED IS A FRIEND INDEED…?”
DrL: Please post more philosophical and psychological photos like this, it speaks more than 1000 effective words to help remove stubborn limerence and its idiotic fantasies!
I’ll print it out, frame it, and put it on my desk!
Adam:
SEPTEMBER 17, 2023 AT 8:13 PM
“ In Frederico’s defense”, you crack me up, Adam….
I just thought I’d put sexuality slightly into the background for the point that I was making.
But, yes, all those things you say are true. The craziness of it all is that I was too infatuated to realise that the displays of affection and his amazing messages should have alerted me to the potential dangers.
We went through the lock-down together, in a way, and he was so kind (at first) when I became seriously unwell – I am now much better. There was naivety on both sides, I guess. Nevertheless I am the one who is older and I am single. The responsibility rests with me. I would not hurt him, or his SO, for the world. I love them both but I need to be realistic and considerate.
“I think what happens to the average heterosexual male, when he journeys too deep into the land of limerence, is that he believes that the sole secret to happiness in life IS helping the woman he idolises. He sees nothing wrong in viewing said woman as a goddess. He becomes very hung up on the notion of how he might be of service to this goddess e.g. saving her from danger perhaps? 🤔
@Sammy,
I’m with you here. I have had rescue fantasies of LO. Not many, but thoughts of how nice it would be for her perspectives of me to change. If only she could see a side of me that’s not in a work setting. True I idolize her, which is not healthy. So I don’t know if just friending her is possible. I like to think it is. Given I don’t really know her though, I’ll take whatever I can get, just to get things started.
Hi to you all limerents
Here’s an article on relationships attachments:
“Attachment Styles and How They Affect Your Relationships” – Mark Manson
I am of the opinion that one behaves differently with different LOs according to their personalities. Some brings out the best of you, others confusion, others the worst of you. So your attachment status varies accordingly. You got to know thyself well enough to be able to run away ( on time) from the ones that confuse you or bring out the worst of you.
It’s incredible how many things we’re taught at school, yet we know nothing, or very little about our bodies and mind. One have to learn these things by oneself, and that usually occurs when we run into a problem with our health or emotional disturbances with our feelings. It catches us unawares…then you start searching and get little bit of information here and there, and it’s overwhelming because now you’re experiencing the problem and your level of understanding might be diminished because you’re overwhelmed, whereas if you had the tools before , it would have been easier to deal with your problems. Just saying…
Have a great week!
@MJ.
Friendship and limerence? Hm. A very tricky subject indeed. In my experience, the abrupt onset of limerence can sometimes noticeably strain a genuine, pre-existing friendship with LO or create an “emotional conflict of interest” in a friendship that’s just starting to bloom.
Maybe the friendship becomes strained on LO’s side, because LO senses some weird tension coming from limerent, but that tension might not always be there, so LO starts to wonder what’s going on. Why can’t I be relaxed around this friend (the limerent) like I am around all my other friends? Why is the limerent looking at me really closely and hanging onto every word I say? This (secretly infatuated) person seems to want something from me, but refuses to say what they want…
Some limerents (possibly the younger or less mature ones) might burst into tears of anger or show symptoms of hysteria when the LO never or only rarely provides the response desired. A frustrated male limerent is very unlikely to hurt his female LO, I think. He still has the lady on a pedestal. However, he might take out his frustration on himself or some inanimate object. The anger isn’t really directed at LO. The anger I think more stems from not being able to get the person out of one’s head, from not being able to “turn off the pain” which is constant. In these situations, it is advisable I think for limerent and LO to keep well apart.
Alternatively, the friendship becomes strained on the limerent’s side. The limerent starts feeling really guilty because of the real and/or perceived sexual tension, especially if SO/s are also in the picture. The limerent might be obsessive about sexual tension i.e. obsessive about wanting to know if the other person feels the same way. The compulsion to analyse LO’s behaviour all the time, and from every possible angle, can quickly become mentally draining to limerent. The limerent’s resulting moodiness may negatively impact friendship with LO.
I’ve had LOs I’ve befriended, and they just couldn’t give me what i was looking for e.g. the same intense emotional response I was feeling for them at the time. These friendships broke down as communication became more and more convoluted on both sides, neither party being able to understand the other.
I’ve had LOs who have befriended me, and I’ve become guilt-ridden over the appropriateness of said friendships due to real and/or perceived sexual tension. I.e. “is this really a suitable interaction for me because I might care about this person more than a platonic friend and they’re not offering anything more than platonic friendship?”
I didn’t mean to sound cross at Marcia or anyone else. Nor was it my place to speak on behalf of another poster. I think I merely wanted to highlight the utter “helplessness” that both sexes can feel when deep in the grip of limerence. 😉
@Sammy,
Thank you for your insight. Once again a spot on..
This pretty much hits a lot of nails right on the head. Especially these lines.
“However, he might take out his frustration on himself or some inanimate object. The anger isn’t really directed at LO. The anger I think more stems from not being able to get the person out of one’s head, from not being able to “turn off the pain” which is constant.”
The pain for myself is like a deep emotional void. A constant longing to see LO, be close to her, hold her. Like almost want to become “one” with her. It becomes that helpless feeling I end up not wanting to let go. These feelings then progress to the feelings of compulsion to dissect her behaviors and become more stressed when considering her SO. All this is like a running loop in my head, all the time, which results in ending up tears at days end.
I do this to myself and think it is a form of insanity. Or perhaps some form of Bipolar1 that I read about on Neurosparkle. It described some of my prime symptoms. I found that site very interesting. So thank you for mentioning it. It looks like there is a lot there to read.
Awhile ago Cordelia mentioned something about me frustrating LO because I never confronted her about my interest, so she couldn’t address it. Which results in her not being able to be comfortable when I’m around. So ultimately she ends up not interested.
Think this is a reason why my self esteem tanks. It’s self abuse, I swear and I hate myself for it.
“The pain for myself is like a deep emotional void. A constant longing to see LO, be close to her, hold her. Like almost want to become “one” with her. It becomes that helpless feeling I end up not wanting to let go. These feelings then progress to the feelings of compulsion to dissect her behaviors and become more stressed when considering her SO. All this is like a running loop in my head, all the time, which results in ending up tears at days end.”
@MJ.
Yes, I know exactly what you’re talking about and when someone’s limerence has progressed to this point, honestly, it’s just really really said for everybody involved…
The lovesick brain of the limerent is telling the limerent that contact with LO is the only thing that will relieve the pressure/pain. However, LO may not want said contact, because the limerent’s desire for the LO is kind of “too much” if the LO isn’t equally interested in immediately starting a romantic relationship.
I know, when limerent, it’s super-hard to put oneself in LO’s shoes. But it’s absolutely essential to try to emphasize with LO as if LO was just a normal human being. I.e. the limerent might find himself/herself in such tremendous unrelenting pain, the limerent starts engaging in self-destructive behaviours. Imagine if you’re the LO and just see the limerent as a friend – imagine how disturbed you’d be to learn that somehow is acting out in a self-destructive manner because they can’t secure your love/affection.
The pain the limerent feels is absolutely real and it’s unrelenting (after a certain point in the addiction is reached) and I would never want to minimise anyone’s pain. All I can say is, having lived through said pain, is that I never want to reach such a state of emotional desperation ever again – because it was/is supremely unfair to myself, because it was/is supremely unfair to LO.
I used to come home from high school, lie down on the floor on my bedroom, and just cry into a pillow for half an hour straight. And I was doing this crying every other day. Sometimes, I even burst into tears at school and if a kind-hearted teacher approached me and asked me what was wrong, I couldn’t tell them, because I didn’t know myself. I had no (conscious) idea of who I was even crying over, or why I always felt so bad. The pain would randomly come and go.
“Or perhaps some form of Bipolar1 that I read about on Neurosparkle.”
The mood swings people have during limerence i.e. swinging between ecstasy and despair, can certainly mirror bipolar mood swings I’m thinking. Some people may have both conditions. However, people can also suffer from bipolar without being limerent, simply due to a chemical imbalance in the brain.
The difference between bipolar and limerence is in limerence the mood swings revolve around the real and/or imagined relationship with one person. The much-desired relationship causes pain. 😉
“Awhile ago Cordelia mentioned something about me frustrating LO because I never confronted her about my interest, so she couldn’t address it. Which results in her not being able to be comfortable when I’m around. So ultimately she ends up not interested.”
@MJ.
I’ve probably had five LOs in my life in total – 2 straight men, 1 possibly bisexual man, and 2 gay men. (I know. I know. I like to shop around for the best bargain). 🙄
Of those five men, I rejected four and only one rejected me. (As in rejected all contact with me, and refused to remain friends). The one who rejected me – I dunno, maybe he was my “true, true love” as far as my limerent brain was concerned. (He was the second of the two straight men, and the second in the line-up of five, although he was also the first one I met. I didn’t become limerent for him instantly).
I had a great friendship with this young man, mostly at his initiative. He’s the one who chased me initially. He brought me gifts, paid me compliments, gave me a lot of physical affection. There did seem to be a genuine emotional bond between us that he desired as much as I did. He wasn’t put off by my “intensity’ – or so it seemed.
Over time, I became addicted to this man. I mean, I could feel literal chemical changes in my brain/body when I interacted with him. And those changes weren’t always manic or euphoric. Sometimes, I felt incredible tranquillity in his presence, like he was taming the beast within). For example, if we exchanged phone calls at Christmastime, my brain would go into this state of super-relaxation. I felt drugged with happiness, and found it easy to sleep at night.
After this man left my life for good, my brain sort of went crazy with wanting him. I’m not sure if the man in question noticed my growing emotional dependency on him, and pulled back. I don’t think he noticed my growing dependency, to be honest. He was THAT clueless.
I think his wife noticed that something was “off” about his relationship with me, and about his relationships with countless other platonic male friends, and wisely decided to keep us apart from there on end. She also expelled many of his other male friends from their social circle. (He got married about five years into our friendship to a very sensible woman).
I actually think this particular LO had a history of flirting and enmeshing with everybody in his life, especially males. I don’t think he was in the least bit drawn to men sexually. I don’t think he even knew what he was doing. I think he just had a weird personality. He could be best friends forever one minute and forget people the next. Hard to believe a member of one’s own sex could possess such charm. I’ve always thought of such charm as being the prerogative of women. Clearly, I have a lot of gender prejudices to confront. 😜
@Sammy
There have been times I have imagined reversed roles and how would I feel if LO was limerent for me like I am her. I think it would make me uncomfortable somewhat. But if I didn’t know about it, I guess it wouldn’t even affect me. I figure she’ll never know the intensity of how I feel about her anyway. So that’s how I justify it. Guess that still makes it unfair to her though.
” A frustrated male limerent is very unlikely to hurt his female LO, I think.”
Well, at least one that has her best interest in mind, yes.
“I never wanted to be your weekend lover
I only wanted to be some kind of friend
I could never steal you from another
It’s such a shame our friendship had to end”
Makes me wonder if this entire movie was intentionally or unintentionally about limerence.
“And if you’re evil, I’ll forgive you by and by, ’cause
You, I would die for you, yeah
Darling, if you want me to
You, I would die for you”
Maybe I should watch it again. It’s been a while and it has such an amazing soundtrack. One of the few albums I listen to 100% every time I listen to it. And who can’t love the outrageous 80’s fashion in that movie lol
I’d post some “Darling Nikki” lyrics too, to illustrate, but I might get banned :-/
Now I’d better get back to my hidey-hole before the boogieman gets a hold of me again.
Adam,
“Makes me wonder if this entire movie was intentionally or unintentionally about limerence.”
It’s not. He gets the girl. 🙂
Hi Adam,
How are you doing?
We miss your comments and jolly attitude.
Hope everything is fine with you and SO now.
Best wishes and big bear hug to both of you.💪🏽
God I would love to get to the point where we could be true friends, no underlying, simmering pot of desire. I am right back in the throes of it, all it took was him reaching out and bam. I felt I was actually getting somewhere too, but the thrill when the message popped up was incredible. Nothing to suggest he wanted anything, just a chance comment, but I have fallen even deeper. I have spent the entire day ruminating and have come to the sad conclusion that I have to get over this, I mean really put the effort in, but how do you do that and remain civil if they do contact you? How do I stop my heart lurching every time I see him? I have to see him every day at work and I love my job so I don’t want to leave it.
@Problem Child, hi
I understand perfectly what you mean! This love, once it gets rooted inside you it’s hard to pull out. It
must be excruciating seeing lo everyday and pretend that nothing is happening inside your heart! I don’t get to see or even talk to my lo, even the distance and silence cannot quench the desire to think of him. My mind gets crowded with thoughts and images of him, anyway…
I console myself by repeating to myself: ‘you had the chance and let it go, can’t change the past’, or ‘you cannot have everything you want’, or ‘it’s all in the past come to present time now, you have a SO, enjoy what you have’ or ‘be grateful for lo
ever being in your life’. Darned limerence, it’s so hard! I’m afraid I’ll die with lo’s name in my mouth! So unfair! Purposeful living and concentrating on SO is the solution for me.
Lots of courage and strength to you and a big hug.
Like many of the commenters, I also doubt I can maintain a truly authentic friendship with my LO.
My limerent episode has been ongoing for about 3 years now. The worst of it (debilitating depression/anxiety, and panic attacks) has passed. I’ve been through many months of therapy (both individually and with my spouse). With therapy and Dr. L’s advice, I’ve strengthened my marriage and am finally starting to see a life without limerence.
That said, I still find myself ruminating and yearning for euphoria of early-stage limerence. My LO is a coworker and close friend. But after a couple of awkward spats stemming from my extreme need for reciprocation, our friendship is now a mere shadow of what it used to be. I still feel self-conscious during every one-on-one interaction. I am still overly vigilant of her perception of me. While the stress and anxiety this produces is no longer disruptive to my daily life, I realize that while I continue to experience these remnants of limerence, an authentic friendship can never exist.
For me, that is a fact I have to accept. I just hope the rumination subsides eventually.
For those that have LOs at work or nearby i don’t envy you at all. I work from home so there is no option to go out to find my LO. It would be hard as she is 500 miles away. I guess I’m fortunate to figure this out early, before we met. I do thank my lucky stars, I thought I was in very deep and then realised what others have to put up with by physically seeing their LO on a daily basis!!! I truly feel for you it must be tough and forced to be much stronger than us folks who haven’t met our LOs. You are strong willed indeed. Respect to you.
When I think about it, my three LOs were coworkers. That’s apparently where I get to know and appreciate people. It even had something to do with their work abilities. Someone who‘s good at his job and working well with me is somehow sexy, apparently. Cannot go into details of work for fear of getting too much information about me out there.
But so, I don’t know if I could be limerent for someone I barely know.
It seems I need to watch them work and generally be alive, and most important, that there seems to be some mutual attraction going on.
We are different, all of us limerents…
Marcia,
“If a man has had a decent number of fish before he marries, doesn’t that desire ever die down a bit?”
According to the Center for Disease Control, in the US, the median number of sexual partners (ages 25-49) for men is 6.3 and 4.3 for women. The link breaks down the stats more.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nsfg/key_statistics/n-keystat.htm
If you want to add an interesting aside, consider this.
The estimated rate of personality disorders is 10%, meaning that there’s a 90% chance you’re not sleeping with one at any given moment. However, over a lifetime….
Rounding to the nearest integer:
.9x.9x.9.x.9x.9x.9=.53 for Men, it’s even money they’ve slept with someone with a PD.
For women, it’s .9x.9.x.9x.9=.65. 1-.65=.35. So, it’s likely that the “average” women had a ~1/3 chance of sleeping with one.
LE,
I’ve seen those sexual partner stats before. They seem really low to me. People are lying. 😀
Yeah, I think that the chances that people are answering honestly in these surveys are pretty low.
There will be a lot of zeros. That will skew the mean low.
***
Edited to add: It’s often good to read the reference before firing off an opinion 🙂 It seems as though the zeros were not part of the dataset.
That said, it also looks like the men exaggerate their numbers and the women diminish theirs, so maybe the true numbers really do lie in the middle.
„That said, it also looks like the men exaggerate their numbers and the women diminish theirs,“
True to every old cliché:)
I‘m quite sceptical about these surveys.
Why for example would one announce to a strange journalist or researcher how many extramarital affairs one has had, if people surely don’t even tell their partners or best friends?
Still there are all these statistics.
It’s not extramarital affairs. It’s sexual partners.
Marcia,
I know, I just named another example of this kind of surveys to make the point that in these sensitive personal matters people might gloss over some facts.
Wow Dr L,
Kinda hit the 3rd rail with this topic!
It seems so 🙂 I can’t keep up with the comments!
I have an unrelated point to mention, and i would like people’s thoughts on this. I was thinking is maladaptive day dreaming something that is associative with limerance.
‘Maladaptive daydreaming is a mental health issue where a person daydreams excessively, sometimes for hours at a time’ Google definition
I realized that this is something i possibly have. I am CONSTANTLY imagining social scenarios of me taking to someone, talking on the phone and imagining how those around me would react . Talking with someone in person, imagining me being back in college in 2018 saying such and such in a particular classroom i use to spend alot of time in. laboratories i did in university where LO and her friends were around me and imagining me saying so and so. It’s constant i can be watching a video for Uni and it’ll happen and I’ll have to rewind or reading a book and I’ll reread the paragraph. It can be about LO but also anything I’m currently obsessed over, and I’m basically always obsessed with something. I feel like before limerance i was like this but only after limerance it because something that was agonizing
Im single and dont spend alot of time talking so is it social needs being unfulfilled? . If my friend would come to visit me we’d talk for the entire day and every thought i would think id say and when he visits me it feels like the only relief i get from this MD as it’s not being bottled in. But if i socialize for 11 hours straight for a small momment the MD will subside but shorty after the excessive dsy dreaming will start again so how can it be a social needs not being met issue? Did anyone have this, but once they had a partner it subsided? Another example If i for example learnt something new or think of a funny joke id think about explaining to someone what i learnt or saying the joke with comedic timing in a social setting directly after sometimes 4,5 times in a row and sometimes i wudnt even think of someone who would i would be saying it to just to no one in particular
((QUESTION for lwl readers))
How many other limerants feel maladaptive day dreaming sounds fammiliar to them??
As in not even about there LO, just gennerly and was you like this before your first glimmer/ first lo
If a person is someone who gets attatched extremely easily but there not prone to day dreaming, would they then not be supseptiable to limerance?
So, you think you can choke/snuff those powerful smoldering feelings?
Here’s a poem for you titled:
Missing you (author unknown)
No words I write can ever say
How much I miss you every day,
As time goes by, the loneliness grows
How I miss you, nobody knows!
I think of you in silence
I often speak your name,
But all I have are memories
I have never stopped loving you
I’m sure I never will,
Deep inside my heart,
You are with me still.
Heartaches in this world are many
But mine is worst than any.
My heart still aches as I whisper low.
“I need you and I miss you so.”
The things we feel so deeply
are often the hardest to say,
But I just can’t keep quiet anymore,
So I tell you anyway.
There’s a place in my heart
That no one else can fill,
I love you so
And I always will.
The song of the blog:
“Feelings”. By Morris Albert 1975
Feeling romantic today, a little sad?
Have a beautiful day.
Thank you Nisor.
That was beautiful..
😔
Hi MJ,
How are you doing? And the therapist, did you get it?
That poem describes exactly my feelings towards my LO!
I’m doing ok I suppose. No therapy yet.. Kinda put it on hold for a minute.. Guess I’m too complex of a case for normal therapy. Said I should seek out therapy that is more comprehensive. It’s ether that or I am infact considered clinically insane for the nuthouse.
MJ,
Therapy that is more comprehensive? That’s bs. That means they are not prepared to cover all cases. Or are flaky. You don’t sound nuts to me, just a sensitive lovable guy that happened to fall in love with an lo that’s avoidant, and has some normal life issues, a sick dad, and a divorce. So what? many people have the same issues…
You stick around here in LwL and it’s the best therapy like Snow says.
Stay strong, chin high and smile. Big hug for you.
I’m not going to disagree with you about that. I think I do get more out of this than therapy. At least you all understand. I’m just not sure I’m applying the principles right. Infact I know I’m not. Just hard right now. I blame myself.
I think I know next time not to ask to the common Therapist if they know what limerence is. I swear trying to explain it, throws them for a loop.
I’ve had many male friends throughout my life, and occasionally have little crushes on them, too. One that reached the level of limerence–turned out he and his wife were both abusive toward me and others, so the relationship finally had to be cut off anyway. In another case where I think I was limerent for a while, I wondered if he felt the same–until I learned he was gay. I still have a little crush on him, but no limerence, no pain. I open up to him without worrying about sexual tension or how “appropriate” it is. It’s refreshing, actually. Most of the time, friendships I’ve had where I felt a crush or limerence, they’ve moved in and out of my life because of circumstances: graduation, job change, that kind of thing. One of them is still a good friend, though I only get to see him on social media. We both have spouses now, so that old college crush is long in the past.
A great post! Thanks for the analysis.
After NC for 5 months I finally recover from LO.
Due to professional concerns, I decide to re-establish some loose social media contact, so we are LinkedIn “friends” now. I won’t be real friend with my LO because I know the glimmer can just be toxic and make me mentally addicted. I do not want to experience that ever again. Terrible. Excruciating.
I won’t try to make my LO as my friend, and my LO is not actually suitable if I compare my LO’s personality to my true good friends in life. But my LO is still a professional network connection I need, so I keep a safe and arm’s length distance. I guess this is consistent with the purpose life style! 😁
There’s a lot of comments here so I’m not sure if anyone would ever even see this but I wanted to share my own story in that yes, it is possible to become friends with an LO! Gender seems to be a topic of discussion here so I’ll say that we’re both males and we shared an intimate moment that was supposed to be just for fun at the start of the year, and thus kicked off a month or two of limerence on my side. It’s the first time in years I had ever experienced something like this and I couldn’t really identify what was happening right away.
What helped, and I know this is not the solution for many people, was actually getting to know him even more as a person, and realizing that he was objectively not compatible with me romantically. What I was feeling was made up, the pedestal I put this person on was a creation of my own mind. And so eventually I was able to shake myself out of this obsessive state and look at the reality of the situation- this person was not for me, we would never be together, but he WAS a good friend.
Now, we’re very close friends and even the thought of us having an intimate moment at the start of the year is really weird to think about. Like kissing my brother or something (ew.)
But not every LO is the same, as I’m currently dealing with the same issue with another friend and it’s lasted much longer (3-4 months). With him, I go back and forth between limerence and seeing things realistically, mostly because the opportunity for intimacy with him is still there and he still sometimes tries to initiate it. There is a clear attraction and connection between us, but he is not available to me the way I wish he was, and so our intimate moments are rare and spur of the moment kinds of situations. He’s a friend I see regularly, and he gives me a lot more attention when I pull back, which makes it difficult to get out because it brings me right back to that mental place.
What’s helped me with him, even though I’m still dealing with it, is writing out the facts- he is not available to me, we have opposite attachment styles (his being avoidant, mine being anxious), what he wants from me is unclear and he rather ignore it than talk about it. Even if he were available, is this somebody objectively good for me? Absolutely not. Remembering those facts helps.
Thought stopping techniques I’ve learned from therapy have also helped a lot. I used to lean into the fantasy because it made me feel good, but I recognize that was part of a thought chain that led me down to a very negative and obsessive place. Now I cut the chain off at the start, knowing that the brief burst of serotonin I feel fantasizing about him will eventually lead to obsession.
To all,
I have a theoretical question here: if my lymphoma came back and doctor told me that 6-12 months is left to live, what I should do with my current limerence?
1. Try to seek out LO (even start PA if offered, EA might be already there, but I’m not sure) to get as much dopamine fix as possible.
2. Disclose to LO w/o any expectation, just to boost his narcissistic supply as my last unrequited limerence gift.
3. Disclose to LO so to be authentic at last and remain a true friend for the remaining time.
4. Do nothing, let my limerence be, ebb, or surge and then take it with me to my graveyard. Let LO wonder for the rest of his life. (He already knows that I “limerented” for him as a surrogate parent and admires my courage to reveal. I thanked him plenty for that contribution.)
5. Write a short fiction to artistically depict my experience, like a dull version of“Simple Passion” — there is no juicy tales.
I’d appreciate your honest thoughts on this question.
Tomorrow, I’m going to take my annual ultrasound check up with my ENT surgeon (82), which needlessly to say always makes me nervous. I’ll be more nervous if he retires — he’s one who intuitively took out all “unrecognized” lymphoma cells 3 years ago during the lockdown, before they had a chance to spread out…😨
🤞
@Snowphoenix
Wishing you all the very best in your ENT tests. I hope you get all clear and that you can put this health trouble behind you.
Sending hugs.
@ Bewitched
Thank you for your sweet wishes, I hope the result is good.
The issue here is that once one had a cancer of any kind, that label will follow one to the end of one’s life, because no one can tell when it will grow back.
I try my best not to take my days for granted, and try to focus on what I already have.
@Snowphoenix,
Wish you all the best, I‘m sure you will be fine! Good to have this doctor you trust.
As to your question, I’m sure you won’t need them. In the very very unlikely case you will then know what you want to do there’s no use thinking about now!
Have a good night‘s sleep and don’t worry too much, I have a good feeling about it, as little as that it is of use for you🙈
Good luck!
Thank you, sweet and empathetic Mila, for your wishes!
My idea comes from one of Stoic as well as Buddhistic principles: Impermanence and acceptance — Memento Mori.
Most of time we live as if we had infinite time to solve all our grandiose issues, eg. limerence. But if we’re given a limited, definitive amount of time to live, such as my possibility, we may then hold different attitude and treatment towards our “astronomical” limerence and humanity in general, e.g. we probably won’t procrastinate…
I’ll practice longer meditation before sleep tonight.
Just finished the check up, All is clear! 👍
Can dance 💃🏻 or wrestle with limerence for at least another year!
My question still stands!
Yey SnowP! Have a glass of champagne or some chocolate or whatever you fancy!! Enjoy this joyous moment, forget your ‘what if’ question, at least for a while!
@IMHO
I will, thank you! 🎆
Wow, Snow, time to celebrate big !
Now you go ahead an write your memories at ease and have them published. Limerents with writing talents should write for the public to be aware of this torment that is affecting so many people and they think they’re all alone.
I’m celebrating with a nice cup of coffee. Many hugs for you. Smile, we love you so…
@Nisor,
Thank you for your cheers and encouragement for writing, I’m still not quite sure what could be learned by or warned from my one-sided limerence.
But I’m interested in exploring an artistic portrait of my limerence for my own growth, now that my mind is better equipped with the knowledge about LE. Still, I’m in grief for all my losses in this elongated, dualistic limerence.
I had a tiny cup of Sangria last night while “debating” with Sammy in lyric. My OCD woke up up in the early dawn to obsessively edit it. Then I rolled back to sleep and had a sad dream; now, I’m blue again….
I will get better later with more meditation.
IMHO
I tried champagne but didn’t like it. But I am intrigued to try a mimosa.
Snowphoenix
Glad to hear of your positive results. Here’s to good health and a long life. Me personally I would celebrate with sake, but not many Americans like it.
Great, Snowphoenix!! I told you I‘ve got a good feeling about it:)
IMHO , you write an update and I wanted to read it later, but now I cannot find it anymore in all the comments ☹️
@Mila,
Your instinct is strong in our ghost land! Thank you!
@Adam,
I like hot sake, especially during the winter.
I only had a bit Sangria last evening, because my mind needed to “debate” with “blue” Sammy in his style.
Warm sake is the only way I like it. Heat up me some sake and watch Tenchi Muyo or some Fatal Fury anime is awesome. But our VHS died and no I am stuck with transferring my anime to DVD or finding another working VCR. Yeah that ages me lol
Please Snow, don’t be sad. Do something to please yourself for being strong all this time with the limerence. Give yourself a reward… I go
shopping to give me consolation! I can open a store with all the stuff I shop! I know it is a compulsive behavior, I’m doing less and less nowadays. I know it’s hard, I feel sad most of the time but I have to put on a happy face for SO. I’m the “ Great Pretender” ( song, the Platters). And I don’t like the feeling of being sad. I go for walks to extrovert now that the temperature is down. It’s most difficult at sleeping time, the mind goes wandering towards LO and what ‘could have been’ if I had not been that harsh on LO then. It’s all regrets, nothing can be undone now; it was a great loss for me and it fuels the limerence and saddens me when I think of it. I take sleeping pills or else I can’t sleep at all. It’s a vicious cycle all these thoughts intruding one’s mind uninvited. I’m glad I don’t have any dreams of Lo, at least, and I sometimes take a nap midday to compensate for the loss of sleep at night, also keep a well balanced diet.
Do you sleep enough, and eat a well balanced diet? It’s important for your physical and mental health.
Now there, who’s going to pay for all our losses? only ourselves. That’s the reason we have to beat all the odds , try to stay strong 💪🏽 and lift up our heads and proclaim and declare that we will be victorious on this battle!!! 👍
@Adam
Tenchi Muyo? I know that one!!! 🙂
Hi Snow,
Darned it, you make me sad, this is a difficult question you pose here! Don’t postulate on the results tomorrow, and don’t think negatively as of now. Let’s say the Providence will make a miracle and there’s no hint of anything wrong in your body. I’m going to postulate that all will be ok with you. So I decline to give you an answer other than you should seriously start thinking about writing a real story about your limerence experience,( and Sammy too), regardless of any results.
You will be fine. Don’t cross the bridge before getting there… Relax, and do your meditation routine so you can have a good night sleep. A tight hug to last for a long time.
@Nisor,
Thank you for your perpetual positive and supportive message. It’s not that I nervously postulate negatively for tomorrow’s test, but the question still stands to all of us down the road, only I’m in a possibly quicker lane to be in the spot. I like your advice, “don’t cross the bridge before getting there!” I pray to your Providence to provide me another safe path again before encountering that bridge! Three years ago, it was much worse when I stood right in front of the bridge…
Without much interaction juice details in my limerence experiences besides sole, mad daydreaming, I have little clue now what to tell if I work on a story. Maybe Sammy has better ideas. Thank you for your encouragement!