The previous post covered the benefits of disclosing your feelings to your LO, and when it may be a worthwhile thing to do. Disclosure is never a simple choice, of course, and can lead to more uncertainty if LO responds in an unpredictable way. Ironically, when not to disclose is usually more clear-cut.
By far the simplest indicator of when not to disclose is: when you really want to but know you shouldn’t.

Now I may be a hopeless optimist about this, but I think most people have a good moral sense and know when they shouldn’t do something because it’s Wrong. I’m not a Pollyanna – I know that most people are also often lazy and selfish and thoughtless, but I don’t think they want to be those things. If you asked them they wouldn’t say “Yeah, I don’t much care about being decent, I like being feckless and weak willed.” It’s just that they can’t always muster the moral fibre to do the right thing. So, people are often not good, but they basically want to be.

Given that shaky philosophical foundation, let’s look at some scenarios where a struggling limerent may need some help bolstering their resolve to hold their feelings in till they can master them.
1) Either one of you is committed to someone else.
The obvious case. Yes, your feelings are strong and you are bursting to share them, but think about the impact on other people. While they remain in your head, those thoughts and fantasies are yours alone. Once they are spoken and out in the world, you have taken a positive action that compromises other relationships. There may be circumstances that we can dream up where that might be an ethically defensible act, but most of the time it is a selfish need for validation by LO at the expense of your integrity. Your decision to share intimate emotional secrets with LO is an act that makes them complicit in the deceit of either their SO, your SO, or both. If there are kids involved, then the repercussions really ripple out. Families have generational feuds over this stuff.
All that moralising is predictable enough, but really, deeply thinking about the consequences of intimate betrayal is a good way to help strengthen your nerve. LO now knows something fundamentally important about you that your SO doesn’t. How happy would you be with that asymmetry if you discovered it about yourself? Another important note is that the attempt to forge a closer bond to LO can backfire, and backfire badly. They tell their SO, or your SO. They tell their friends. You have no control over the information once it is out in the world, nor should you expect it. You have imposed yourself into other lives; consequences follow that decision.
2) You have authority over LO
The next obvious case is that in some manner, professional or otherwise, you have authority over LO, or there is a power imbalance that means you are disclosing to someone who is either dependent on you or subordinate to you. I’ve mithered before about workplace limerence, and it’s complicated stuff (power imbalances can vary or flip or have little real bearing on professional life), but it may be a situation where the precautionary principle is well applied. If someone works for you and you disclose to them, you put them in a very difficult position – regardless of how they feel about you. Admittedly, reciprocated limerence is a problem that you can probably manage to solve, but what happens once the limerence fades, as it always does? And you never know whether it will be reciprocated before you take the chance.
If it isn’t reciprocated, how is an employee supposed to navigate the nested difficulties of letting you know they are not interested romantically, but want your good opinion professionally, and need to work closely with you but not give you false hope, and are thinking about the reference they will get if they want to leave, etc. etc.?
Of course, if disclosure goes badly, the backfiring at work is a whole other level of fallout. They accuse you of harassment. They tell HR. They ask to be transferred. You have to explain yourself to your boss. Everyone else who works for you loses respect for you. Repercussions pile high.
Another level of complication is educational scenarios – teacher/student or tutor/tutee. If your LO is younger than 18 (or the agreed threshold for adulthood in your country) then suck it up and shut your mouth. No good will come of it – that should be obvious. For older students, the same principles apply as for the workplace, but more so. You have a position that grants you status as a source of wisdom and support. Abuse that at your peril. It’s hard to see any circumstance under which disclosing to a student is a good idea. Keep your feelings in. They will leave in a matter of a few years, so if you are truly enraptured, wait till then.
3) You think LO doesn’t reciprocate, but need to keep working with them
In another scenario, LO is a coworker, but not an obvious boss or subordinate, what then? Assuming your workplace doesn’t have specific policies about relationships you are free in principle to approach them. Here again, I would caution against disclosure unless you are very confident that LO reciprocates – and the false confidence of limerence doesn’t count. And you certainly shouldn’t disclose your limerence. You will have to work with LO in the future, and it will be a lot easier if you are discreet in determining whether they are interested. A compliment and a request for a date would be fine, disclosure that you spend all day obsessively thinking about them is going to make everyday life very uncomfortable for you both if LO is not interested.

4) You have disclosed previously
You disclosed before and LO um-ed and ah-ed and said “can’t we still be friends?” or “I have strong feelings for you too, but it’s complicated for me at the moment,” or other such non-committal flannel. There’s no point disclosing again. In fact, why are you still hanging around them? Run away! Save yourself!
Why not disclosing is hard
Given how easy it is to list the reasons why you shouldn’t disclose, it does rather beg the question why is it so hard not to? Surely any limerent with half a brain could see it’s madness under these circumstances? Certainly, any SO will see with crystal clarity how straightforward the decision is. Shut up, get away from LO, and focus on the primary relationship that you’re jeopardising!
I’ve spent paragraphs listing all the reasons why a limerent should restrain themselves, but limerence, though, eh? It’s not associated with clear thinking. It’s tough to think clearly when all your cognitive power is occupied with trying to come up with rationalisations for why you should be getting your next fix. The desire to disclose can be overpowering. You want them to know how wonderful you think they are. You think they might know, and might feel the same about you, but how can you be sure? High on dopamine and overconfidence, you want to share the giddy feelings of connection with them, to get closer by shared intimacy. And what could be more intimate that a confession of deep feelings? The boring real world fades away in the moment of connection. Surely it’s safe to disclose here in this mind-bubble that the two of you are sharing?
Yeah, it’s not. All the responsibilities you have taken on still count, even if you are high. The cold, hard truth about limerence is that it happens in your head, and is largely independent of external reality. A good mantra to repeat to yourself when you are tempted to disclose is “I have no idea how LO will react”. Because you don’t. You’re handing someone a life-grenade because you think that they are amazingly special and will appreciate the gift you are giving them. Some LOs will look at your gift, pull the pin and blow you up.
And you can’t complain because you gave them the bomb.
Thank you. This post is perfectly timed for me. Only one working day left of avoiding disclosing. Just keep focusing on reasons 1 & 3.
This time next week no contact starts!
I’m not sure if I’m distraught or relieved.
I’m not sure if I’m distraught or relieved
It’s often both at once 🙂
Wonderful post. I have come to believe that it may be wiser not to assume people in general have a good moral compass. When this person in authority, who fits the description of both points 1 and 2, disclosed to me without any regard for consequence, I realised (a little late) that some people, despite appearance, are basically selfishly manipulative for their own gain. Limerence on their part, whether real or fabricated, should always be seen as a huge excuse with a hidden motive of creating a hook for an elicit affair. It can be dangerously contagious, especially for one who is vulnerable. It is definitely not about love, even when they say they are in love with you. Do not be fooled. It is good to know the circumstances under which disclosing is unethical, no matter how infatuated one feels. It is important for those on the receiving end of such disclosures to protect and disentangle themselves. Never compromise your own integrity.
“LO now knows something fundamentally important about you that your SO doesn’t. How happy would you be with that asymmetry if you discovered it about yourself?”
As LO #4 so eloquently put it in her goodbye, “Also, I’ve been trying to put myself in your wife’s shoes. How would you feel if she was corresponding with a man she was attracted to in the same capacity that you write to me? If you have to hide our correspondence from your wife, it’s not good…I hope you can understand my position.”
While I thought “capacity” was an odd way to phrase it. I couldn’t argue with the intent. I took some exception to “…that you write to me.” If my wife had seen some of the emails LO #4 had sent sans my response, I don’t think mine would have been the only corpse on the floor. But, there was no point in challenging that. She was giving me a way out and I took it.
As goodbyes go, LO #4’s probably ranks as the second best I’ve gotten from a woman. She was far more gracious than the “Buzz off , creep!” that she could have said. In the end, if we weren’t on the same page, we were pretty close and that was good enough for me.
“If my wife had seen some of the emails LO #4 had sent sans my response, I don’t think mine would have been the only corpse on the floor.”
Was LO #4 married too? If not, then really the only person to hold responsible for investigating or pursuing an undisclosed life outside of the marriage is you. Was there a Mr. LO #4 who could have chosen to leave their marriage for real?
Not that it is any of my business, of course. Wondering aloud.
I take responsibility for my actions .
By my statement, I meant that LO #4 said enough that I think my wife would have seen it as poaching. I can easily my wife asking LO #4, “Of all the shoulders in the world you could be crying on, why are you crying on my husband’s?” LO #4 could be right in that she didn’t have any idea of my being attracted to her but she can’t possibly claim she didn’t know how intimate some of the things we were sharing was. My wife was aware of my acquaintance with LO #4 but not the extent of it.
When we started down the path, she was living with her boyfriend. I could tell she was unhappy but she never said anything. She asked me, “What do I telegraph to you? ” Her relationship collapsed when she caught him cheating on her and he allegedly assaulted her. She reached out to me and the limerence went into overdrive. When they were still together, I doubt that he would have been any happier to see the emails she was sending than my wife would be to have seen mine.
I asked her for her address so I could send her a birthday card. She had me send it via her mother’s address. It neatly would bypass the question of “Who’s XXX?” if he got the mail that day. In the 5 years we’d know each other online, we never once broached the idea of actually talking to each other. My take on that was that was a boundary neither of us was willing to cross. After 3 months of no contact, she started corresponding again. We went a few rounds over that subject. She knew she was dealing with a married man and and it appeared she didn’t care.
Less than a week after I told a mutual acquaintance I was detaching from the site we were all on, LO #4 sent me a Facebook friend request. She was actively trying to maintain the connection and I was willing to let her. We were never able to establish appropriate boundaries after that.
I made an attempt to reset the boundaries on New Year’s Eve day, 2015, and she said goodbye on New Year’s Day 2016. 6 months later I was in front of a therapist to begin sorting it all out.
My, she (LO #4) wasn’t being fair to anyone in her orbit. Glad it came to an end & I hope life continues to treat you and your family kindly.
Scharnhorst’s experience with LO #4 makes me wonder: ismate-poaching concomitant with the limerence spectrum? Is it more frequently seen with participating LO’s and the person experiencing limerence?
Good question. I think many (perhaps even most) serious episodes of limerence evolve from a mutual “dance”. It could be that limerents are misinterpreting neutral/friendly signs from LO, but oftentimes it’s mutual culpability.
Like Sharnhorst’s LO, mine most definitely pushed boundaries repeatedly, knowing full well I was married. But then, she would panic and withdraw and act as though any previous questionable behaviour was my misunderstanding. I quickly realised that ultimately her behaviour was irrelevant – I was responsible for mine and that was all that mattered in terms of my marriage. That clarified things.
In terms of mate poaching – I think there are definitely LOs out there that delight at having an emotional hold over someone else’s partner; that delight in being LOs. I’m also sure that there are limerents that focus on married LOs. Every pathology is represented somewhere 🙂
“is mate-poaching…”
“…with participating LO’s OR the person experiencing limerence?”
What to do when NC means the need to disclose to spouses, which will destroy multiple lives and friendships? My LO is a close family friend. We are both married. Our families are interconnected. I made the mistake of disclosing to him and he acknowledged that he shares the same feelings and longings. A physical affair is out of the question, due to his placing that boundary, as he is deeply committed to his family. Therefore there is adversity and also some uncertainty because when we are alone we do talk about our deep soul connection and the realization that in another life we would probably be together. We both value the friendship as it is indeed a “good” friendship, a true and authentic growth promoting friendship, as you describe in the “can’t we be friends” post. I keep thinking maybe we are mature enough (in our 50s) to work through this and salvage the friendship. There has been no physical contact, aside from some deep hugs. I am deep in limerence obsession. His coping skills are to pull back in avoidance, which is triggering my fear of abandonment and thus my suffering grows. What is your advice about a scenario in which complete NC seems impossible without wreaking havoc on our families?
“…because when we are alone we …”
Don’t be alone with him. Don’t text, call or email unless both spouses are included in it.
Don’t involve yourself in his coping skills – go work on your own with a therapist and perhaps your spouse.
I’ve got to the point where I’m wondering if I should partially disclose to LO, but this post is making me think that this would be a really a bad idea. My thinking is that if I did disclose I would say something along the lines of “I’m worried that my feelings for you are going beyond normal friendship and I don’t think it’s a good idea if we continue to meet”. This might then allow me to enter a sustained period of NC.
I’ve arrived at this thinking, after a being drawn back into full-on limerence after what was a successful period of NC. Both myself and LO are married with kids and we have known each other through work for over two years – it was just friendship for me at first. We meet regularly for lunch and communicate via email/text and I can’t really see how else I could go NC. I’d say we’re quite close and understand each other pretty well and I think she could handle the disclosure and keep it to herself (perhaps my famous last words). Our lives outside of work are totally unconnected.
My aim wouldn’t be to tell her how wonderful I think she is, I can see her flaws and to be honest I don’t think I’m even that bothered if she reciprocates – I just want some kind of resolution and to end this madness! However, even with my biased limerent brain I’m 99% certain that she reciprocates in some way. If there was reciprocation on both sides, is it not something that you can acknowledge and talk about as adults and agree that it would be wrong to do anything about it? I don’t think either of us is a bad person and we care about our respective SOs.
If not partial disclosure how else can I go NC? Reduced contact doesn’t seem to work for me.
If you disclose to LO, you should strongly consider disclosing to your spouse. First.
There is nothing good that is going to come out of disclosing to LO. If she reciprocates, you get a boost and limerence deepens. If she doesn’t, you mope.
“We meet regularly for lunch”
Why?
“and communicate via email/text and I can’t really see how else I could go NC.”
If it’s not work-related, don’t discuss it with her.
You’re not punishing her by resuming a purely collegial relationship. It may be that she is looking for a way to minimize contact with you and you would be doing her a favor by pulling back from FTF meetings and only work-related emails and texts.
Remember, if they’re emails then IT and HR can see them. If they’re texts, then your spouse may have access to them.
In order to stop an addiction, you have to stop feeding it.
I’ve considered disclosing to SO, but at the moment I think it would only make things worse – extra stress that she doesn’t need.
You asked why do we meet regularly for lunch? It just seemed natural to meet up and to catch up on things in general. We’ve been friends for a couple of years and regular contact has always been the norm. There’s other colleagues who I also meet for lunch and I see these meetings as just being social and spending a bit of time with people who I get on with. Lunch can be pretty boring on your own. The meetings weren’t a problem before the limerence kicked in and although I know now that they are feeding my addiction there doesn’t seem an easy way to stop them, without my behaviour seeming strange.
I was thinking the same, that she might be looking for a way to minimize contact so building on the natural Christmas break I went NC and gave have her the opportunity to withdraw. However, she then got in touch by email and F2F and this has drawn me right back into my LE. In one recent interaction, she was particularly flirty giving me a wink when checking if we were still ok to meet up. That really floored me internally has driven me mad since – “did she really do that?!!” I’m sure this whole thing is not all my own doing, but I do feel bad that I may have led her on in the past and have been quite unsubtle about my feelings. I’d be amazed if she didn’t have some idea about how I feel and I really don’t think disclosure would be much of a surprise. One problem might be that to her this is all a bit of fun (although I don’t think she is this type) but to me it’s a life consuming event. Who knows though – maybe this whole thing is driving her mad too and disclosure might put her mind at rest, or maybe it would nuclearize us both?
“Both myself and LO are married with kids”
” However, she then got in touch by email and F2F and this has drawn me right back into my LE.”
She issued an invitation that you accepted. You’re a participant in this, please try not to think of yourself as someone to whom things “just happen”. The limerence may have struck out of the blue, but you’re feeding it.
“In one recent interaction, she was particularly flirty giving me a wink when checking if we were still ok to meet up.”
She has an inkling, if she doesn’t know full well already. In which case, this isn’t kind of her to continue. Why is she stringing you along/grooming you? What’s in it for her?
“Who knows though – maybe this whole thing is driving her mad too and disclosure might put her mind at rest, or maybe it would nuclearize us both?”
Are you prepared to get a divorce? If you aren’t, if you don’t want to take that risk – then no more F2F lunches without additional people present. Think of them as potential witnesses for your wife’s divorce lawyer. Act accordingly.
She may be ready to blow up her marriage, but only if she has someone to warm her bed first. Or she may believe that is what she wants, but if you end your marriage she’ll distance herself from you. At any rate you need to think long-term. Are you prepared to end your marriage and still not have LO in your life? That can happen too.
If you don’t want to be married anymore then put that into action BEFORE you disclose to LO.
no! No! and NO!
“If there was reciprocation on both sides, is it not something that you can acknowledge and talk about as adults and agree that it would be wrong to do anything about it? ”
In a perfect world, you should be able to but it’s not a perfect world. That conversation can go a lot of ways and most of them aren’t good.
I used disclosure as a method to end limerence. It worked…eventually… but things got worse before they got better. You can read about it in “How to get rid of limerence.” I also had a few things going for me that you don’t that mitigated the potential downside of the world’s imperfections.
1. LO #4 and I were 2500 miles apart. I didn’t think she’d hop a plane and show up on my door.
2. We had no professional nexus and no reason to maintain the acquaintance beyond we wanted to. I wasn’t afraid of her and I didn’t owe her anything. The big thing that kept me around was she was reaching out to me and I’d feel like a schmuck for turning my back on her. I got over that.
3. LO #4 was reasonable and always appeared to operate in good faith.
In your case disclosure is a minefield. It took 9 months from the time I disclosed until she threw the flag and said goodbye. She was really nice about it. The professional risk Lee pointed out is only one of the risks.
Disclosure is also a way of planting a seed and you have no idea of what will sprout or when. Who will pop into her head if she starts having problems in the marriage? Maybe, you’ll provide the incentive to start something that might not have otherwise happened. Kick that snowball off the hill and you have no control of where it goes.
Like DrL says, once you open your mouth, you make her complicit.
“I used disclosure as a method to end limerence. It worked…eventually… but things got worse before they got better”
The thing here is that at least it worked to end the limerence. Whatever I do, I can only see things getting worse before getting better. I’ll take a look at the post you mention to understand your mitigating circumstances more.
You mention planting a seed but I think through previous actions I’ve probably already done this.
By the time I disclosed, LO #4 and I had been dancing for several years. While she may have been unaware, I don’t think it was a great leap when I finally disclosed. I was trying to wrap things up. In the 9 months from disclosure to goodbye, we had some pretty intense exchanges. I wanted to know how she felt and I went at her pretty hard to find out.
Ever watch “Dirty Harry? I’m the guy on the ground.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maBJzJgYjto
Disclosure was eventually effective because it made the LE as it stood unmanageable. But, again, she couldn’t file an EEO complaint against me and from what I was getting from her, I didn’t see her knocking on my door and telling my wife, “Hi, You don’t know me but I’m replacing you.”
Your LO is real threat to you and you see her every day. You’re contemplating action that has the potential to impact a lot of lives.
For what?
Careful Royce, it’s not necessarily the disclosure that ends the limerence. It’s the excruciatingly painful steps (namely No Contact) taken afterwards that end it. I agree with Lee on every point. If you want a future with LO, end your marriages first. Believe me, I know the pain you’re feeling, but it gets better and you can get through it.
Here’s the thing, Royce: you can go no contact without disclosing. And if you think no contact is the best plan, then the question to ask is “will disclosure make it easier”?
If you suspect that LO has feelings for you too, then the answer is almost certainly “no”. Because she may reveal her own feelings back, and that could make your limerence go nuclear. Or she could make a vague or ambiguous response that will eat you up with uncertainty and second guessing. Ultimately, if you are going to take control of the situation you need to act purposefully yourself, rather than trying to link your choices into some sort of strategic contact with LO that you are hoping will go the way you want.
I do get it. I still feel a massive urge to disclose to my LO. I was thinking about it today – what if I told her about this blog? How would she react? Or, what if by chance I bumped into her again at some point in the future and made a casual comment like “You know I did sometimes struggle to manage my feelings for you when we worked together”. Just to clear the air. To confirm what she surely suspected, and settle the matter.
All of it though is driven by a sort of urge to exorcise the feelings outwards and get them acknowledged. For some kind of validation of the truth of the episode by prompting LO into showing understanding. It’s that same desire for reciprocation, but transformed into a rationalisation that this is just two adults being honest with each other.
But we don’t really need that. And they probably don’t need it either.
If I could go back in time I would not disclose. Reciprocation + Barriers = Nightmare. It’s been fully 100 days since things went nuclear in my world (yes I AM counting the days) and I am only just starting to feel like myself again. I have spent these past 100 days soul searching and voraciously consuming everything I could find about heartbreak, infidelity, relationships, how to go No Contact, hypnosis, journaling, you name it. I sure have learned a lot but sometimes you have to go through stupid to get to smart. Next time I sense “the Glimmer”, I am going to run for the hills.
Life isn’t black and white, and it’s easy for an outsider just to say “stop it”, when they are not going through what you are going through. Like Dr L I get it too. I’m not happy with how I entered NC with my LO and I’ve been thinking about whether I should clear the air and disclose enough but not everything. I’m not going to, I think I have enough strength to fight that urge, but some days are harder than others.
I’m lucky in that LO has taken my request for NC and she hasn’t been in contact. For you it’s going to be harder, but you managed some NC before? I think you just have to go again. See if it can last longer this time, and when it ends, go again. Eventually it will be permanent NC.
Dr. L. wrote, “Or, what if by chance I bumped into her again at some point in the future and made a casual comment like “You know I did sometimes struggle to manage my feelings for you when we worked together”. Just to clear the air. To confirm what she surely suspected, and settle the matter. ”
What I suspect Dr. L. knows is that he would be steering the conversation in that direction. If LO wanted to know, she would ask. He wouldn’t have to volunteer any information, he would simply confirm it.
Royce –
Disclosure to a colleague leaves you vulnerable to a charge of sexual harassment. Which would then open up your life to a lot of people and you would have very little to no control over the process.
Lots of wise comments and advice from you all – thanks for all the replies. I will reread what has been said and think some more. Lee, you stark warning about a “charge of sexual harassment” was particularly useful to snap me back to some kind of reality. That really wouldn’t be good for anyone.
For now, I’ll try reducing contact again with the aim of NC. Any advice on how I can actually achieve this? How can I retreat from the regular meetings and communications without my behaviour seeming strange. I’m sure she will ask what the problem is, which is why I originally thought about partial disclosure.
You don’t retreat from regular meetings and communications. You retreat from things like after hour texts and Facetime.
If she asks why you’re distancing yourself, lie to her. Tell her you have to go to the Post Office at lunch. Tell her you’re distracted by things outside of work, which in reality isn’t really all that much of a lie. If she asks why, tell her it’s not appropriate to discuss at work. Think Nancy Reagan, “Just say, No!” (politely)
Another thing you may try to keep in mind is nothing about the LE is going to make your marriage better. It helps frame the big picture.
“Sweetie…things are really good between us and I owe it all to another woman! You should meet her!”
I’ll try to be more like Nancy Reagan then although saying no has never been one of my strong points. The out of hours contact will be pretty easy to stop as the majority of our interaction is done at work. That’s where the big problem lies.
I’ll have to remember how good it felt at the end of my last period of NC. I remember driving to work and thinking amazing, I’m not thinking about LO, although paradoxically I suppose I was.
I like your last line it made me laugh for the first time today.
Hi Royce,
Try spending some time thinking about boundaries. Think about why they are important and precisely how they can help you.
For starters, I’d recommend Mark Manson’s post:
https://markmanson.net/boundaries
I also found the Blog “Baggage Reclaim” very helpful in keeping me on the No Contact wagon. It’s written from a female-dumpee’s perspective but see if the principles can be applied to your own situation.
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/no-contact-why-you-need-to-keep-your-proverbial-door-closed-even-when-they-try-to-break-it-down-by-any-means-necessary/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/coping-with-break-up-drama-in-the-workplace/
Good luck!
Thanks for these articles. Makes me realise that I’ve never really thought about what my boundaries are. I may well be lacking quite a few and need to think more.
I’d be interested to know more about what has happened to you in the last 100 days? Sounds like you’ve been through quite a bit since disclosing.
Hi Royce,
Yeah, it’s felt exactly like getting over a broken heart.
In the personal history you shared with us, you mentioned that disclosure led to the two of you being together and that this has turned out great for you. I don’t know how common that is…the “experts” seem to think it’s rare.
The outcome of disclosure (positive or negative from the perspective of your personal, limerent-addled brain) hinges upon how your LO reacts. In my case, the reaction was that he wouldn’t be a party to blowing up any marriages any time soon. It is fair to say that my LO made the decision for all of us that acting with integrity was the order of the day. (One of those admirable LO’s that Dr. L has written about – which makes it that much harder, dang it!) It was a tough pill for me to swallow, but I respected that decision and promptly distanced myself – A LOT. It’s a rejection, couched in reality, to be sure, and it was more importantly the RIGHT THING TO DO, but it hurt like a mother*cker nonetheless. (Although in hindsight, it’s crystal clear to me that I did all of this to myself). If we were both single, I think LO and I would have a shot at an amazing relationship. But we aren’t both single. It felt almost exactly like being dumped. I’ve been dumped before and I got through that so I knew/know I’ll get through this. Every heartbreak is unique though, and this one definitely has its own special flavor.
Since last fall, I’ve done a lot of soul searching. I have been depressed. I’ve been so preoccupied that my work has suffered severely. I was a zombie spouse for a while. But, like I said, I am finally starting to feel better. I feel like myself again most of the time! Hallelujah! But there were so many days and weeks on end when I felt like I wasn’t making any progress in “getting over” this and was very impatient and frustrated with myself.
Things went really well for you 20 years ago – you mention it being one of the best decisions you ever made. That’s a huge deal. There are no guarantees that blowing things up again now would turn out so well for you. Could be the biggest mistake you ever make.
Currently, it sounds like you “want” LO to reciprocate AND be with you. There’s so much fallout from that in other people’s lives that it is just not that simple. It would probably be useful to take some time to remember what your SO has brought to your life. There is no reason to rush anything with LO. Take a long NC break to get clarity. It really does work! I’d say 3 to 4 months minimum.
Hang in there – it really does get better.
@catcity13
” It’s a rejection, couched in reality, to be sure, and it was more importantly the RIGHT THING TO DO, but it hurt like a mother*cker nonetheless. ”
Disclosure can turn going NC into “goodbye.” As Shari Schreiber put it, “Whether you’ve chosen to step away from a new relationship or a long-established one, how you orchestrate that ending is crucial, because it’s typically what someone remembers most about you.” Even if going NC isn’t an actual “goodbye,” That it’s a good thought to keep in mind .
The “good bye” was huge for me because for some reason, if I ever cross LO #4’s mind, I want her to think of me as an “ok guy” and smile. I want to think I had an influence on her. Before the goodbye, I told her I never want to be on the list of people that hurt her or let her down (she never responded to that). I’d also like to think she retained some small measure of respect for me. It’s stupid to want to leave a legacy with a woman I never met but I do.
The deeper you’re in the weeds with them, the more it hurts. Nobility in your LO tends to enhance their appeal. If you tilt in that direction, them throwing the flag can send the “numinous” aspect of limerence through the roof. I do. It’s even worse when they’re nice about it. (https://livingwithlimerence.com/2017/12/31/why-is-limerence-so-powerful/)
Disclosure makes us vulnerable. Since LE is largely internal, there may not be much that’s “real.” But, the pain is. Self-inflicted, or not, we often deal with the pain in isolation unless we disclose to our SOs. Confiding in your SO that your in pain about an LO may or may not make things better, especially when the pain was caused by trying to end the LE. Double Whammy!
But, it does get better. Achieve enough time and distance and you may come to see that they were a catalyst that led you to better things.
Thanks for sharing your story Catcity and it sounds like you’ve had a tough time. I can only imagine the heartbreak you’ve been through – I get stomach churning and feelings of despair just when I think a conversation hasn’t gone quite right (pretty stupid really). It’s good to hear that you’re feeling more yourself again and I hope you continue to feel better. Although disclosure didn’t go the way you wanted, at least it gave you some kind of closure with LO and an allowed you to move on, although NC sounds like a less painful way to go. As far as you know, did the disclosure stay just between you and your LO? Are you still with SO, did the notice you were a zombie spouse?
My situation 20 years ago does appear to be rare, but I’m not sure whether I was in limerence then. My feelings are more powerful and consuming now than I remember them being then and I don’t think my SO suffers from limerence, although I don’t know for sure. Is it possible for a limerent to fall in love in the more traditional sense? Maybe that’s what happened back then.
I’m not writing off everything that I have now my SO yet and you’re right that there is no need to rush anything. I do think about the fallout in other people’s lives and this is probably the biggest thing that has held me back so far.
The numinous is definitely at play here Scharnhorst, on many levels. It’s the Cosmic Joke at its finest.
As luck would have it Royce, in my quest to understand what happened to me and how to recover from it, I discovered a body of work that explained the intersexual dynamics at play in my marriage and my LE as well. It resonated with me so much that I’m happy to say that at the moment, things are great between my SO and I.
If I hadn’t had this LE, I probably wouldn’t have stumbled across this info and the pieces of my relationship with my husband might never have locked into place this well. I feel really optimistic for us.
I also wouldn’t have learned the importance of maintaining proper boundaries and how to recognize the Glimmer. I never want to repeat this experience again – no harnessing the power of the limerent high for this woman! Red Alert! Shields up! Take us out of here, Number One!
Also, as far as I know Royce, none of our colleagues know what happened between us. I have spoken to a couple of my most trusted confidantes about it though. I would have gone crazy otherwise.
Three cheers for time & space!
Catcity, good to hear that there have been some positives come out of your LE and that your shields on now in place. Hopefully with some introspection and further reading I can find out some answers about myself too. Have you told your SO about anything that has happened or will you be keeping it under wraps?
I have been giving some thought to telling my SO and how I might go about doing that Royce. Without this blog, I never would have even entertained such a heretical idea, but it does seem to be a very decisive step in inoculating myself against any temptation to lower the shields. One commenter (I forget who) had an excellent strategy that I’m thinking of trying if I ever meet another Glimmer Giver: introduce them to my SO. I realize that’s not necessarily a guarantee against developing feelings, that’s what personal boundaries are for, but I’m quite serious about never getting myself in this horrible nightmare of a minefield again. Anyway, meeting a Glimmer Giver is an extremely rare thing for me so hopefully I’ve learned my lesson.
If you do disclose to SO I hope it goes well Catcity. It seems to have worked for others but I can’t even contemplate it at the moment – maybe further down the line. I can often see a glimmer but it only seems to progress further after I’ve got to know them for a while. At least that should give me some time to bail out if I think it’s happening again (although I need to escape this one first).
These clips may be two of the best when it comes to describing limerence.
http://www.criticalcommons.org/Members/ccManager/clips/madaboutyouvrchristiebrinkley.mp4/view
This one relates on how not to disclose to your SO.
http://www.criticalcommons.org/Members/ccManager/clips/madaboutyouvrdescription.mp4/view
You gotta love, “It wasn’t just sex…she’s really nice.” at about the 2:05 mark in the second one.
Hi Royce
I would echo the words here that don’t disclose unless you want to really just be with her.
However I do understand the point about no contact when working together. I think you just have to play dumb and make excuses for when you can’t meet and over time they will get the message. It is easy for me to say that as you know my situation that LO left end of January. If they were still here I think I would be in your position so i do feel what you’re going through.
Where case scenario is have you thought about changing jobs? I have not seen colleague in five days now and to feel there is light at the end of the tunnel . Although I am missing her and thinking of her I feel this week that I will get through this.
We don’t actually work that closely together and we are not in the same office, so with a bit of effort very limited contact if not NC could be achieved. To be completely honest (I’m trying harder with this) I think the biggest challenge is me really working out what I want in my life and committing to going NC if that’s the route I take.
I’ve been thinking back to when I first got together with my SO and there are some parallels with what’s going on now. Back then, around 20 years ago, SO disclosed her feelings to me whilst she was married to a friend of mine. I reciprocated and although not immediately and to cut a long story short we ended up together. It really set a bomb off in a lot of people’s lives but in the long term it has proved to be the most positive thing that has ever happened in my life. Perhaps that’s why I’ve been thinking about disclosure now, as it can be a positive event. You can find out where you stand and decide what to do next. Admittedly, things were a lot simpler then, I was single and there were no kids were involved.
Anyway, I am going to start on reducing contact and disclosure is off the cards. I’ll try and get my more rational brain to return and I need to work harder on my relationship with my SO.
“…we ended up together.”
Royce –
Something I’ve noticed in your writing is how often you use a passive voice. I think if you change the way you write, you will change the way you think and that will make it a tiny bit easier for you to start firming up your boundaries. Or maybe it will start with changing the way you think and it will be reflected in your writing.
At the moment, they sound more theoretical than not.
Definitely look into the links that others have posted. Also, discuss the articles with your wife. After 20-ish years, she may have some work to do herself on her boundaries and may have insight into yours (or the lack thereof).
Your wife is your ally in building boundaries around the marriage, if not carving out individual courtyards within the castle.
She’s flirting and winking at you – this doesn’t bode well. She’s a real threat to your lifestyle (marriage) and livelihood. I don’t know if it wouldn’t be worthwhile to contact HR to figure out if you have crossed a boundary or not. That may not be wise. Scharnhorst – what do you think?
Short answer: Keep detaching from LO. Keep his professional behavior beyond reproach in such a way as to not hurt his LO’s feelings or piss her off. Hurt her feelings or piss her off and she may lash out. When I was detaching from LO #4, I was very aware of that. As hard as I tried not to, I think I may have. But, she didn’t lash out at me.
At this point, I wouldn’t tell anybody who isn’t sworn to confidentiality anything, (e.g., therapist or clergy). It can be really helpful to talk things out with someone who doesn’t have any stake in the outcome and who won’t intentionally or unintentionally betray you.
My take is the fewer people that know what’s going on the better. The complications from adding people to the mix isn’t linear, it’s exponential.
I’m concerned that any f2f lunches may have taken place off-site and if LO takes offense at being sidelined, she could make allegations of a very serious nature.
I really hope that isn’t the case.
Good point, Scharnhorst. I thought HR departments were bound by confidentiality clauses but why take any more unnecessary risks. Is there an employee handbook available?
The risk in going to HR is once they become aware of something, they may be obligated to do something about it. How does he defend himself without implicating her? They may go after her.
Even if they don’t do anything but talk to her, the cat’s out of the bag. My guess it would end the LE but to no one’s satisfaction. Should he decide to pursue the LO, I suspect that she wouldn’t take kindly to being ratted out to HR. Worst case from going to HR, he damages his marriage, he suffers professional consequences, and he doesn’t get the girl.
If that happens, things could get very ugly very quickly. Trying to get your hands around that would be like squeezing a jello mold.
“Worst case from going to HR, he damages his marriage, he suffers professional consequences, and he doesn’t get the girl.”
I would suggest that getting the girl happens after a legal separation or divorce, rather than before. I suspect his wife wouldn’t be too keen on getting LO beforehand.
😉
“Worst case from going to HR, he damages his marriage, he suffers professional consequences, and he doesn’t get the girl.”
I would suggest that getting the girl happens after a legal separation or divorce, rather than before. I suspect his wife wouldn’t be too keen on Royce getting LO beforehand.
😉
I don’t know how that happened. My phone is playing up.
F2F lunches have all been on site and I don’t think either of us has said anything that is overtly inappropriate. Conversations at work are not always 100% professional and with people you know you judge what you think is OK to say, based on trust and the relationship that you have with them. We are still maintaining some boundaries, but yes I need to work on these some more.
I don’t get the HR thing and it’s completely out of the question. I wouldn’t want to stir up trouble for an enemy, never mind someone who I care about and who is genuinely a nice person. She is someone I know and not a random person who can be thrown to the wolves. A wink is not the worst thing in the world and if it wasn’t for me being a limerent fool I’d be able to shrug it off. My brain may have misinterpreted something that was more innocent anyway.
I can try to work on my writing style but I find writing hard enough as it is. I think a lot of what I write is theoretical and thinking out loud, but this process and your responses really seem to help.
A suggested I will try limiting contact again, with the aim to “keep detaching from LO”. I had a valid reason to get in touch with her yesterday and resisted the urge. Crack open the champagne – one day down!
Royce,
You may be approaching a turning point. Limerence is about us, not them, although it always starts out being about them. In the beginning, we focus on them but if you are really serious about understanding things, that focus will turn. It has to. LOs can be villians but they’re usually not. More often, they’re either unwitting or willing accomplices, which helps keep the focus on them. Once you get your head around that, things start to make sense and should start to get easier.
You’re going to have to play an aggressive defense in things like not responding immediately, etc., for awhile. The key to making that work long-haul is doing the work to understand yourself better. For me, I actually enjoyed that although it dredged up some surprisingly painful things and, in some contexts, put me in a very unflattering light. Addressing what got me into the last LE improved other areas of my life. But, you have to be willing to go where that journey may take you.
The ability to solve problems is good but avoiding them is even better. Unless you understand what happened and how you got there, the risk of repeating it remains. Turning the focus to yourself will also make it easier to detach. Make this about you, not her.
You’re moving in the right direction. It doesn’t take much effort to get into the limerence minefield, but it can take a lot to get out of it.
“I had a valid reason to get in touch with her yesterday and resisted the urge. Crack open the champagne – one day down!”
Good for you!
I’ve had limerance once and it was horrible. I could not think and I lost weight. He was a co-worker at my new job. I felt like he would try to get my attention, hide, rinse and repeat. Eventually I could not take it anymore and asked him if there was a connection. He said no. I was horrified and avoided him after that, but it felt good to know where things stood. After that, he spent a lot of time trying to get my attention in nice and cruel sorts of ways, but I stayed away. Eventually he met someone and was absolutely horrible to me. And then he broke up with her and tried to get my attention again. He’s mostly stopped now. I just finished my year at my employer and handed in my two week notice. I cannot wait to get away from him. The only good thing that has come out of this is the 10 lbs I lost. If you need to lose weight, give yourself a hefty dose of limerence. It works better than any diet pill. All is not sad. I met a wonderful man a few months ago who fills most of my mind these days. I can’t wait till the LO is completely gone from my life. I want him dislodged from my mind pronto! 🙂
Is it worth telling your employer that his behavior was one of the reasons you left? That sounds like it could be viewed as harassment or a hostile work place. You didn’t want to date him.
He sounds like a narcissist LO and you’re definitely best off without him. Good riddance and great that you’ve met someone new. 🙂 I’m still resisting any kind of disclosure but interesting that you say “it felt good to know where things stood”.
Limerence certainly is good for weight loss. I’ve shed around 30lbs and have become quite a good runner. Every cloud …….
Thank you for this beautiful blog and in particular this very enlightening post on when not to disclose. Up until yesterday I had no idea what limerence was, I stumbled upon this site by pure chance as I googled “how long does a crush last” in trying to understand my feelings and wanting to make sure I wasn’t going stark raving mad.
My limerence started about 18 months ago, it caught me completely off guard, knocked me side ways, off my feet and on my ass. Both LO and I are married with children and met in the school car park 2 years ago, it all started with a simple nod of acknowledgement, smile, then wave, each day as we each parked our car behind each other to pick up our children. There was no verbal communication for 6 months, just a meeting of eyes, wave and walking past each other. I can honestly say up to that point I had no feelings for this LO, he didn’t occupy my mind as I was too consumed with a lack of self worth, mood swings and bouts of depression as I negotiated the perils of reaching my mid 40’s.
After 6 months we verbally greeted each other (still no introduction) and if we happened to drive past each other we’d wave. I started to enjoy our brief interactions and look forward to them, we even sparred as to who got the better carspot. Six months after that we were formally introduced which meant we now openly spoke to each other whenever we saw one another, nothing earth shattering just hello, how are you, how are the children. Things “escalated” quite quickly last year as we got to know each other via mutual friends, if we sat in the same group he’d move from one end of the table to sit next to me to talk and visa versa. Some days we’d talk so long that almost everyone would’ve left the table and two hours flew by. If I looked up I’d catch him looking at me and visa versa. The proverbial poop hit the fan when his SO cottonend on and cracked the shits with me and we had a fall out. I was devastated as I realised NC was the only thing to kill this thing off, so I stayed away and avoided school for 8 weeks, it nearly killed me inside. Every waking moment was spent fretting over him, missing him, wishing I could see him not to mention the river of tears I cried.
I thought he’d never speak to me again as his wife must’ve laid down the law, but after 8 weeks he came to school with his SO and caught me by surprise. I actually pretended not to see them and turned my back hoping both would walk past without saying anything, instead LO tapped on my shoulder and proceeded to talk to me as if nothing happened. Fast forward to today and we are back to being ” friends”, I am back to talking to his SO and have sat with both LO and his SO in our usual social setting. The only difference is I am left agonising over every word and look LO gives me (or lack thereof), I’ve lost a tonne of weight and my heart jumps out of my chest each time I glimpse him or his car. It actually makes me feel physically ill.
I was contemplating disclosing to my SO and perhaps LO but after reading the above article I’ve decided against it as currently everything is in my head, I’ve managed to successfully hide my feelings to the extent that LO’s SO thinks it’s all over and treats me normally again. I don’t want to upset the Apple art again, LO and I are careful not to talk too long to each other and certainly no more meaningful “looks” are given to each other. The only thing I am currently contemplating is NC as I still have an unhealthy attachment that needs to be severed.
So that’s my long winded sad sob story.
Welcome Lee (we have a regular Lee here, but the more the merrier!)
Thanks for posting your sob story – this is just the place for sharing them! A good lesson in how hard it is to try and remain friends with an LO once the limerence has kicked in. It’s just more exposure for you and a thankless time of clenched teeth and churning guts while you try and stay normal in front of LO and his SO. Torture.
There’s lots to enjoy (?) here on coping with LOs and why friendship Never Works. Hope it helps…
Thank you for the welcome, I’ll alter my name slightly so there’s no confusion which Lee says what.
This website has been very helpful and I will be eternally grateful to have found it, I haven’t stopped reading since yesterday. It’s almost a cathartic purging and validation of every emotion I have felt in the past 18 months. I am here because I want this roller coaster of emotions to stop and I’ve realised that in order to do that I need to find the strength within myself to get off.
I thought everything was under control (ha!) but can recognise my old behaviour patterns of self-sabotage from last year reappearing. So before I do something irreversible and stupid I need to sever ties with LO, by the way, I read your article how we can’t be friends with our LO and it was a real eye opener. Just excuse me while I frantically grab a paper bag to breath in and get my heart rate back to normal.
Here’s a synopsis of my feelings towards LO, I am sure some people can relate, or maybe not…..
– Uncontrollable anticipation (butterflies, escalated breathing) when I “know” our paths may cross, no matter how fleeting my glimpse of him (aka his car passes mine on the road, and yes I know right down to the last minute when I can potentially see him!)
– If he sees me first and acknowledges (flashing lights, honk or wave) I feel sheer euphoria followed by such a massive rush of happiness that my heart almost beats out of my chest (shit I am having a heart attack). Generally my level and intensity of euphoria is measured by how far ahead he’s seen me (did he see me 200 metres away, 100 metres away or just as our cars were passing). I am thus happy for the next 24hrs, till our next sighting.
– if he didn’t see me (which is rare) feelings of utter desolation with borderline tears on my part.
– anticipation builds up again an hour later because I know he may or may not be at our local school coffee shop for his coffee and catch up (we have mutual friends). I know which days he’s most likely to be there and can spot his car at 200 paces even driving at warp speed.
Sometimes LO is there before me (my favourite) and he will exit his car and come over for a chat if he spots me. He always spots me, even if I try to sneak past, I’ve tested this. This sends my heart into overdrive and I find it difficult to breath, even my hands shake so I need to take several deep breaths before he reaches me and I can speak. Once we speak everything calms down, heart rate back to normal, I can make eye contact without dying and I almost feel like we are friends. My emotions take such a sharp U-turn that I begin to wonder if what I was feeling earlier was all in my head.
– if he’s not there or comes in later I feel disappointed but optimistic for next time. If I am already at the table I need to sit facing the door so I can see him come in. If my back is to the door my anxiety goes into overdrive and I am distracted, but I always “know” he’s there before he’s said anything as the hair on the back of my neck stands on end. It’s also uncanny that when I am in a crowded room or LO is that I know the exact moment he’s there, our eyes always meet if only just once. Once I pretended not to see him and I felt him circle the room (took him 20 minutes but who’s counting) before he ended up in front of me to say hello. I’ve also seen him watch me via the reflection of a window when he thought I was occupied.
– my least favourite part is seeing LO unexpectedly, I don’t like surprises and it throws me off kilter for the whole day.
– I won’t bore you with my fantasies but let’s just say LO is the last thing I think of before I go to sleep and my 1st thought when I wake up. I also have a constant knot in my stomach and my sleeping patterns have turned to shyte.
Wow reading the above makes me realise I seriously need help! Not sure if I feel comfortable hitting the send button on this :-0
Well, that’s pretty much “normal” behaviour for a limerent 🙂 But yes, this site exists because many of us do need help with it!
I disclosed to my LO while in a 20 year relationship with my SO. Thing was, my SO knew. He knew what was going on before I did. We were working through things, communicating, like you do in a 20 year relationship. I thought that disclosing would bring the reality hammer crashing down and help end the limerence. It didn’t. Ending it through NC; I showed my husband this blog and it helped me explain to him what was happening when I met my LO a few years ago. He and I have been getting on better now that all this is wide open.
Well done Archer! Reckon that is an important step in the right direction. Doing that certainly helped my SO and I get closer and that in turn reduces my reveries. I also found that having someone to voice aloud how I want SO not LO and how my feelings for LO were more an addiction to a partially imaginary person improves my perspective. The more I say it, the more I believe it.
Saying that, not had a good day today…way too much daydreaming at work about my boss. Really must get a grip.
Thanks Allie! It definitely has been quite the emotional roller-coaster. It helps that my husband and I have had wonderful communication throughout our relationship and we’ve been discussing any unmet needs I have, how, why, etc. It also does help, like you pointed out, to get some space between your emotions and your behavior and some level of objectivity resurfaces – such as “an addiction to a partially imaginary person”. That was what fundamentally helped me as well.
I’m really sorry your day is being so difficult with you – can you get up and take a walk, or read, or some other fundamental activity?
Thanks so much Dr. L (and all the commenters)! From a website overflowing with useful and highly applicable wisdom, this post is THE ONE for me. This is exactly where I am right now and you have just saved me from handing over a giant, primed life-grenade to my LO.
I clearly remember the moment I met my LO. I helped interview her for a position at work. I was immediately impressed by her intelligence and self-possession, despite her obvious nervousness. I also remember thinking towards the end of the interview “I love the hair on her forearm!” In hindsight, alarm bells should have started ringing then and there. That was nearly a year ago, and we’d been working happily together without incident. LO is almost unfailingly cheerful, friendly, honest, beautiful, and most compellingly of all, often the smartest person in the room. When we talk, which is often (although usually professionally) she just gets me in a way that people often don’t. The conversation flows so easily. I am in the midst of a diagnosis for Asperger’s syndrome…
Everything was trucking along fine until the last couple of months brought us closer together to work on a high-stakes, high-stress project. That’s when her presence became particularly intoxicating, and I started imagining being with her. Constantly.
LO is close to half my age (although I still feel somewhat youthful at 45), and I’m married with kids.
In the meantime, things became even more perilous as I was promoted, and became LO’s manager.
She has never given me any clear signals that she is interested in me, but I guess limerence, and my history of missing subtle social cues (ref. ASD), mean that I can’t be sure.
Objectively, the risk/benefit ratio here is wildly skewed to risk, and yet… somehow every time I see her, I can’t accept that.
Just gotta work on it I guess. Unfortunately, NC is not really possible.
Welcome to LwL!
Asperger’s and autism comes up periodically in different posts but there’s not a blog exclusively dedicated to it.
Check out https://livingwithlimerence.com/what-causes-obsession-with-another-person/#comment-29727
If you haven’t, you might want to check out the private forum and see if there’s more discussion there.
Thanks! I’m very happy to be here. I don’t want to overstate the influence of (potential) ASD – there are just some aspects that seem complementary to limerence, that’s all.
I do wonder, now that I’m learning about limerence, whether all of my relationships with women have had some aspect of limerence about them. Limeresque maybe, if not fully limerent.
Hi. I’m in the midst of a LE. Thankfully, we are on holiday so I will not be seeing my LO for a couple of weeks. I have been contemplating disclosing to my LO that I have feelings for him. He is my boss. We are both married and have kids. I really don’t want anything from him but I need to end this madness. NC is not really possible but I’m thinking that if I tell him, perhaps he will get so freaked out and he will initiate NC. There was a period of time where he actively avoided me as I think he may have picked up on my feelings. But lately, he has been initiating contact – nothing inappropriate but not always strictly necessary to communicate about. I think in some way he has feelings for me (I know that we create these fantasies in our heads but I genuinely think in this case there is something there), I have noticed him looking at me when he doesn’t realise I’m looking at him.
I know the best option is to leave my job but I love my job and I will not find something similar to this. There is no way to completely have NC. I can do chats on Whatsapp or emails but when I see him in person, it sends me spiralling. I have actually been pretty good with avoiding him as I know this is not good for me. It is now him who seeks me out and not vice versa.
I really don’t know what to do. My LO is also my SO’s boss so it is a very complicated situation. My LO is a very decent human being. I have sent him some crazy correspondence (my mental health has not been so great this year) but as far as I know, he has not disclosed it to anyone. I was thinking that if I disclose to him and just explain to him that we need to limit contact, it would be for the best. I don’t think he would tell my SO and I don’t want to tell my SO. In this way, he would give me space. It may be a little awkward but I’m sure he would respect my wishes.
Please help!
Do not disclose to LO. Try other methods to relieve your symptoms first. Disclosure complicates things. I naively disclosed to my first two LOs and the problem got worse because they both reciprocated. I was very careful not to disclose to my current LO, but he disclosed his attraction to me. It complicated our relationship. Disclosing to LO is a bad idea. Don’t do it.
Best of luck!
I’m an employer who has LE for one of my employees. I too think it might be mutual and we have been in this dance without disclosure for about 10 months. From my perspective, I would love it if she disclosed because I feel it would relieve a ton of tension and we could work as a team to mutually stop the madness too. She is married and so am I and neither one of us want an affair. But it is apparent that there is attraction between us and we keep pushing interaction boundaries.
You think you want her to disclose, but it would only make your relationship harder. You currently suspect that there is mutual attraction but you don’t know so there are boundaries neither of you would cross. If one of you discloses and it is a mutual attraction, the rules change. Both of you will feel safe to push boundaries. And since neither of you wants an affair, guess what happens when someone oversteps a line. You lose each other because you are not going to lose your marriages. So just enjoy the not-knowing.
When disclosure happens the relationship changes and you never get to go back.
You make an excellent point. Thank you. I just get exhausted with the elephant in the room, but the elephant may actually be protecting us from one another.
You are welcome. Yes, the elephant is protecting both of you. That is a great way to say it. I know the dance can be exhausting at times, but it really is safer than knowing there is mutual attraction.
Best of luck!
So I like to go back to older blogs and comment of topics that are relevant to my experience. This one is one of those because a couple months back I disclosed when all the good advice said not to.
My LO is my employee…reason #1 not to disclose. Also, we are both married. Reason #2. For about 10 months I was in an LE situation with a ton of uncertainty with feelings of mutual attraction. The tension hit a crescendo around Xmas time when we engaged in 2 weeks of reciprocal texting everyday. Nothing intense but a lot of bantor that gave me a high sense of connection. Around this same time my feelings started to leak so that other employees noticed my demeanor of attraction around LO. Talk began to happen and LO caught wind of the talk.
About 2 weeks later I disclosed as an attempt to control the narrative with LO but also because I wanted to so damn much. For months I had been holding in this secret desire for her, and I just wanted her to know so bad. I was willing to roll with her wherever it led if she felt the same.
Well…turns out the feelings of romantic desire were not mutual, though she did claim to think of me as a closer friend and have admiration for me as a man. But at the same time my disclosure gave her distress from my actions towards her but hers towards me as well over the past few months. For a good couple weeks I could tell she was not herself but they a few more talks and some anger on her part towards me she pulled past the initial distress.
Was disclosure worth it…yes and no. I got lucky that after I disclosed I managed the fall out fairly well and she is not concerned about me anymore. I have done everything in my power to make the work place and our relationship comfortable for her. We stopped texting and we have light personal conversation at the office. But, she can still be suspicious of me at times. I really can’t stray outside a very normal and dull boss / employee paradigm with her without her wondering my motives.
Disclosing did relieve the tension of the secret, but a few months removed now, the LE is still there. It is a bit less in intensity now, which I appreciate, but disclosure is by no means a cure.
I would not recommend disclosing in my situation. I truly do think I got lucky the fall out was not worse. LO did not do something erratic, but I imagined she could have. She could have quit or told her husband, or just generally been completely creeped out by me, or worse, claim sexual harassment. She did none of those thankfully. But, our relationship outside the work walls is dead too, which I sometimes lament. At the same time it was that relationship that drove me the most crazy.
I still sometimes question the truth in her attraction to me. She still looks at me and smiles at me certain ways no other woman does. But that is just be my limerent brain taking a warm look and turning it into a look of desire.
I wish I had seen this post — and this site — back in 2018, which was before I ever met my last LO. Disclosing is definitely not good, as I did in fact give her a life-grenade that that she threw right back at me and blew me up.
Sidenote: If the person you like is straight and you’re gay, or you’re straight and they’re gay, you are going to make things awkward, gross and awful. Don’t say it. You know the feelings are not reciprocal. There’s no ‘I thought you should know’, no ‘I just want to be honest’. They’re not interested, so you don’t tell them. Ever.
After spending hours and hours scouring this website, this is the post that hit me the hardest – this line in particular: “The cold, hard truth about limerence is that it happens in your head, and is largely independent of external reality”.
The bluntness of this post was hard to take, but is perhaps exactly what I needed to hear at this stage of my current LE. However, I want to point out that I don’t believe that the choice to disclose/not disclose is always so black and white. I have had three LEs within the space of three years, each one more intense than the last.
LO #1 was a colleague, and it was clear to me that I should not disclose my feelings. Eventually, I stopped seeking to spend time with her outside of work, and my feelings faded away naturally over time. With LO #2, we had already had a close friendship for several years, but my feelings had developed more recently. Despite the fact that this LO was unavailable in more than one way (not interested in women AND in a relationship), I decided to tell her. This was one of the most difficult things I have ever done and I initially felt heartbroken and so afraid of losing her as a friend. But she accepted me and was grateful that I told her. After several months of little to no contact initiated by me, we gradually settled back into a close friendship that has evolved, with less emotional intimacy now, but I am grateful for the way things turned out. I’m glad that I told her, because it was getting more and more difficult to be around her, and every interaction with her felt dishonest. In this case, being honest with her was the best thing I could have done, and the foundation of our existing friendship pre-LE meant that continuing our friendship was possible.
My current LE has been the most intense and, off and on, I have strongly suspected that my feelings are reciprocated. I identified with many of the articles about the psychology behind LEs, as it was when she began to pull back after a period of intense communication and time together, that my feelings also intensified. I am not yet sure if telling LO #3 was the right thing to do. We haven’t spoken about it since I told her, and I have only seen her in group settings since then. I have obviously put myself in a vulnerable position – she could easily share this information with our mutual friends or her SO – but I still felt strongly at the time that I should tell her. Right now, I’m not sure what I want to do about it (if anything), but contact with LO #3 has been infrequent recently, which is giving me some space to reflect.
As an introvert, I have a very active internal world and understand why I am vulnerable to LEs. Since I was a teenager, I have used journalling as a tool to express and process my feelings. While this at times has been very helpful, I recently made the connection that all my diary writing about LO #3 was only serving to overly romanticise my ideas about her and greatly intensify my feelings. This is why the point about limerence only being in my head really stung, because it can feel SO REAL.
I’m glad I found this website. I appreciate the practical, straightforward advice and reading about others’ experiences, as it has helped me to feel less alone in experiencing attraction and attachment in the way I do. But as I have also realised that too much introspection can be a bad thing for me, I probably won’t hang around here.
Thanks Dr L and best of luck to all fellow limerents out there.
Thanks for this post as I‘m currently also suspecting that writing posts about LO here or diary writing leads to a subtle distortion of reality, shifting importance of small things or interpreting while writing (all subconsciously).
I don’t want to say it’s a bad thing, it’s a good thing in many phases of limerence to reflect and try to understand. But maybe not always.
It’s also good to hear that you were limerent for a friend, disclosed and still manage to be friends.
I think now that you disclosed to LO3, it’s moot to reflect if it was a good thing. It was the thing you felt you had to do at that time, so you did it and that’s it. You can feel good with it as long as you did it for yourself and don’t expect LO to react in a certain way.
First time post – I first want to just give huge thanks to Dr L for the blog and everyone who has commented on it over the years with their wisdom.
I have followed this site and read almost everything, I think, over about 6 months, without commenting before now. My time on here and what I have learned from it has singlehandedly stopped me several times from disclosing and potentially blowing up the lives of me, my SO and my LO in one go. I still need to figure out what’s going on for me here in terms of how to move forward purposefully – can’t anwer that yet. Adam, LostinSpace and and (most of all, if I need to follow anyone’s lead to get through this) Speedwagon, I find your contributions about your own LEs inspiring. Also thanks to Lovisa and L.E. in their different ways for the way they look after people in this place. I am sure I have missed some people and sorry for that. You are a great community and reading bits on here has pulled me back from the brink several times. I don’t really have the words to say how grateful for that I am.
Question – Has anyone done the deprogramming course at a point where they don’t feel 100% ready in their heads? How did it go? My LO was a friend way predating my LE (which I suspect is mutual but don’t know, maybe objectively it is 50-50), and NC is impossible, so I still think that I am stuck in that “want to reduce it back to friends” (denial? – yep according to everything on here) stage where I can’t quite let go of the LO. So i guess the question is should I try the course at this stage or is it pointless until I (really really) know that I want to be over the LE and LO more than currently?
I hope people out there can understand why I ask. At one level I 100% want to be over the LE but at another I am just not there yet at all, in fact I keep feeding it and letting her feed it too
Hi LaR
Marking this to get back to you a little later when I can write more.
Ok, getting back to Lim-a-rant. I am about 17 months now post disclosure (I am sure you read all about it) and I would say I fall on the side of REGRET now. It effectively ended any chance of closer friendship I had with LO, though I am not sure I could have had a friendship with her anyway in the midst of this LE. When I disclosed I felt pretty sure my LO had mutual feelings. She did not. Now she can be guarded with me and I feel awkward if I try to establish any closeness because my feelings are already out there. As a result I have taken the path of LC now and she seems to be perfectly fine with that. Had I not disclosed I could see a scenario where we are more mutually close as friends with more reciprocal interactions.
I also got lucky she did not blow up my life because she could have. I had to put in a ton of work to have her feel comfortable with me again. It was not worth the act of disclosure just to ease my mind at the time.
Like Lovisa I am on team don’t disclose also. Especially if your goal is to maintain the friendship you had. I think that is a worthy goal so keep that as a principal in all this.
Getting to your specific question about deprogramming. Is there a way to go LC or NC for a bit? How often do you see this friend? I am wondering if a step back for a few good months could help to see if your emotions towards her adjust at all. My LO has never really pursued me, she only responds to my pursuit, but it sounds like your LO might be an initiator with you also? That would be tough if you try to step away. Not sure I have advice for that, it’s a problem I just don’t deal with and wish I did many times. Maybe a very careful and gradual staged withdrawal could be the strategy.
I would be interested in hearing more of the specifics and dynamics of your LE.
Hi Speedwagon,
Thanks so much for replying. I love that I have an abbreviation already (LaR) while I try to come up with a wittier username.
I just replied in depth to Lovisa below which may answer some of your questions.
I have read about your experiences pretty fully over different posts. I see my LO very frequently. My LE dynamics and setting have an awful lot of similarities to yours, minus the power relation you have with your LO and plus the fact that it seems more of a two way street (in fact more on her side at first) in seeking out time together. I think this is done more in the spirit of the true friendship that’s there than in a ‘bad enabling’ or worse sort of way. Boundaries have been a bit extended there but up to a stopping point. Sorry if some of this sounds cryptic – I am a bit green here and worried about it being seen and my identity being detected (silly really). But I am trying to give you enough to read between lines about the dynamics and how it might look the same or different to yours.
All of the things you have said previously about signals in your case (eye contact, body language, spark etc) feel the same here. That’s why I was quite surprised that your disclosure wasn’t met with any reciprocation. But unless there is more than meets the eye there (eg if she just doesn’t want to tell you rather than there being nothing there on her side), then it just shows how easy it is to mix up the signals.
I do think a very slow staged withdrawal back to a more appropriate friendship is the way to go for me, but I need to figure out how to start doing that. The evidence is also banked up on here that friendship after limerence isn’t that possible, so I have to try and keep open to that. Don’t worry that I am tempted to blow it up with disclosure – I am well past that because of all the evidence against it in my position that I have read on here.
I hope you don’t mind me asking – What were the initial bits of the staged LC like for you? What changes did it involve at first?
I think I generally buy into the premise that it is very tough to be friends, true friends, with an LO while in the height of an LE. I tried this with my LO but can’t seem to have it be emotionally satisfying. On the other hand I do believe there are friendships before the LE that are worth fighting for. Sounds like you are in that boat. I have a pretty good long time female friend and I would hate an LE to end that friendship. I would not want the LE to win. At the same time our own self care and commitment to SO should be the most important thing.
“I hope you don’t mind me asking – What were the initial bits of the staged LC like for you? What changes did it involve at first?”
I started LC actually well before I disclosed but it was only cutting out major things first. No texting was my first real thing I did. We never texted a ton but enough that it was a thing. Texting with LO just stressed me out most of time, mainly because her communication style and mine were not compatible over text. So cutting out texting relieved a lot of anxiety.
Next was not spending alone time with LO. Mainly work outings together. Alone time just made me feel more connected to her and desire her more.
I found that if I could keep my interactions routine and predictable and somewhat mundane I could function well with LO and control my emotions much better. No highs and lows. So that is what I focused on for a long time.
These days though most everything has deteriorated to me just not wanting to have any real personal relationship or interaction with LO at all so I pretty much steer clear of any personal talk with her and keep all our interactions work related. I would say I have no friendship at all with her. This only works because she doesn’t ever pursue me either so I don’t have to navigate an LO trying to be my friend.
One thing to remember is that normal friendships ebb and flow so you might find just a couple ways to start pulling back a little without tipping your hand. It will feel like a big deal to you because you know your motives but to her it could seem like natural ebb and not think a thing of it. If she pursues then maybe be just a little more aloof than normal. I think a lot of this is trial and error. For me it was and took months to figure out my best strategy. Give it time and just start trying different patterns of interaction and see if something works for you. Also start working on not ruminating on a romantic future together and why the friendship works better. Your LO has flaws, it’s OK to focus on them. Last, pour romantic energy into your SO and ruminate on why she is perfect for you over LO.
But, to be honest, you might reach a point where LC only takes you so far in recovery and NC is required to fully recover. This is where I am out now but unfortunately can’t go full NC so I am in a bit of limbo. It sucks! You are not there yet so I hope some level of LC works for you.
Welcome Lim-a-Rant!
Sorry, but I can’t answer your question.
I want to see if I understand your situation. You are getting something good out of your LE, but you also want it to end. It sounds like you feel conflicted. I could guess about why you like your LE vs why you want it to end, but I might not get it right. I would rather hear it from you. Please share a few more details if you’re comfortable sharing.
It sounds like you haven’t disclosed to your LO. I stand firmly on team DON’T DISCLOSE. I just want to put that out there in case you were wondering.
I noticed that you feel like your LE is mutual and that your LO fuels the fire, too. You might be right, I don’t know. Something that we learned in our community is that us ladies send signals of attraction when we don’t mean to and the boys mistakenly think those signals mean mutual attraction. That may or may not be happening in your case. You are welcome to tell us why you think the LE is mutual and we can give you feedback.
Thanks for your kind words about our community. I look forward to learning more about you.
Hi Lovisa,
Thanks for replying so fast!
On your ‘Team don’t disclose’ point, reading others’ stories in this place has been my saving grace with that, every time I have got close. There is too much to lose by disclosure and I think I’ve now accepted that and am on the same team.
On the ‘mixed signals’, yes I totally get that too – have seen you say that to lots of other men here. This is why I rated mutuality as 50-50 as I don’t know if I am just mixing super friendly/comfortable signals up. I could only find the true answer out through disclosure but again I don’t want to go that route.
So why I want the LE to end even though I get lots out of it… a few reasons but the main one is that I have an SO, who I have also not disclosed to and don’t feel I can or want to. So I am conflicted (good word) because the LE and the fact I contribute to feeding it go against my own morals – I am in mild EA territory but not more. LO has said things that show she recognises this potential issue and the need for boundaries. She is a decent person and there is no narcisism involved. Everyone has different boundaries I guess, and there has been a stopping point where neither of us has encouraged pushing those out further. Another reason for stopping it more fully is the inevitable slide over time from reverie towards rumination, which I’m already on.
I had a meaningful friendship with LO, still do, long before any glimmer etc (for a double figure number of years but stronger as that time went on) which is worth preserving. So the many bits on here that say “you can’t ever be friends with an LO” are the bits I have the most resistance to, and think “that can’t be me”. I’m just not (yet, anyway) prepared to throw that away, and am prepared to suffer some discomfort inside as the price for that. But I also love my SO and am not going to leave her, so it has to change or else long term limbo beckons. When I say “not prepared to throw it away” I don’t only mean by disclosing, I mean I also don’t want to go the NC or very LC route and strangle the limerence that way. That would make it odds on I’d lose the friendship anyway due to the weirdness of doing that without disclosure. As I write all of this out it starts to feel inevitable that that’s what will have to happen! But I have much resistance.
So my blue sky scenario is to be able to deprogramme enough that I can rid myself of the limerent feelings and see LO simply as a friend again, as in days gone by. The trouble is that the stories and vibe on here make that seem like an impossible outcome! Reprogramming how I deal with the rumination would be a really good start.
I have nearly paid for DrL’s course several times lately but it is a lot of money. I am sure it will be worth it but I’m thinking about timings for me, and whether I am “ready enough”. As in, you have to be truly invested in a thing to make a thing happen … the course advert even mentions that point …
and my internal conflict makes me doubt if I am ready. Would still be interested to hear from others on here who have done the course, about its benefits to them.
Thanks for reading and taking time out of your day to reply!
Hi Lim-a-rant,
Glad to have had you here as a reader for so long, and thought I’d chime in on your specific questions about the course. Unfortunately, I’m not sure it will really clarify your situation! You do seem to be caught in a limbo that is perfectly balanced between the pain of giving up limerence and the pain of staying trapped in limerence.
The course is intended for people who have hit a crisis point where they know they need to get out of the addictive cycle of limerence because it is jeopardising their wellbeing and emotional stability. It sounds instead that your limerence limbo is tolerable – if wearying – and so finding a path to a purposeful life is actually the most important priority for you.
I am confident the course would help – it has a lot on cultivating a recovery mindset, how to deal with setbacks and relapses, and how to find purpose and plan a better future – but it is all built on a foundation of decisively getting over the limerence, not turning it into a friendship. You are right that I am sceptical about that 🙂
Yours is an unusual situation, because you were genuinely friends for a long time before the limerence, rather than the more common situation of feeling the glimmer and then wanting to be “friends” as a way of getting close to LO. So, it isn’t crazy to think that you could get back friendship if you really could pass through the limerence. The issue is likely to be how you could pass through it while keeping it a secret from your SO and LO, but also maintaining contact with LO.
Waiting in limbo is unlikely to lead to freedom, just by time passing. Something does need to change if you are going to break out of the stasis.
In summary, I wouldn’t emphatically recommend the course, because your situation isn’t the typical limerence “emergency” that it was designed to address. But, if you do get to the point of realising “Enough! A decision has to be made!” it would give you the practical knowledge needed for how to get out of limerence quickly and efficiently.
Hope that is some help.
Best wishes, Dr L
That’s the trouble–We can be read as giving off “signals” when we’re just being friendly. But we can also inadvertently give off signals that disclose our feelings and he picks it up. I think that’s what happened in my case: I can remember little unintended body language “tells” that LO must’ve picked up on, because that’s when he started paying more attention to me and making his own little signals….No one has said a word but it’s all out in the open now. There are many ways to disclose. So you can say “I won’t disclose” only to find that she’s been well aware of your feelings for some time. It’s a tricky business and even trickier when there are SO’s.
Keep your user name, Lim-a-Rant. I love it! Don’t change it. It’s very clever.
I’m in a bit of a hurry right now so I can’t give a proper response. I skimmed through Speedwagon’s post and he has some good information for you. I’m the lead in an outdoor adventure with 4 families so it’s going to be a busy day, but I’ll get back to you when we have down time.
I want you to think about something. Women want to feel close to the people who they like. You will pick up on signals that she likes being close to you. It can be completely platonic on her side. I don’t know if that is happening in your case because I haven’t read your response to me yet. It’s just something I want you to consider.
Thank you for adding more details to your story. I look forward to getting to know you better.
Sorry that I have to keep this short. I am glad you are here.
@lovisa
“I want you to think about something. Women want to feel close to the people who they like. You will pick up on signals that she likes being close to you. It can be completely platonic on her side. I don’t know if that is happening in your case because I haven’t read your response to me yet. It’s just something I want you to consider.”
Thank you. I had already been giving that thought, but it is good to be reminded and hear it from another’s perspective. I think if I can just convince myself to believe that (whether 100% true or not) and respond in kind it could be very helpful. I hope you had great fun on the outdoor adventure.
@DrL
Thanks so much for taking the time to respond about the course, as I know your schedule is hectic. I think I have a genuine determination / recovery mindset to move past the limerence feeling, but not so much the LO as a person, and perhaps the two are so wrapped up in each other that it is unrealistic to do one without the other. If we take the view that limerence is a thing our minds do to us, then it is not (always anyway, and in this case) the LO’s fault – they could well an unwitting participant in our mind’s games. So that’s the trouble I have – wanting to calm and remove the feeling but without falsely demonising or alienating a decent person. Maybe as events play out I will have to rethink this and have a cold hard look at it from a self preservation view. ‘Tolerable if wearying’ is a good way of putting it for now.
@Speedwagon
Thanks for your very helpful reply. I’ll respond properly later. Sorry to hear it has come to the point of almost no friendship and feeling you need NC and can’t get it. But it sounds like you are well down the road of fine tuning the best strategy for the cards you’ve been dealt, which is a good ambition for me to try and emulate.
@Speedwagon – I can’t seem to reply in the natural place above. Cheers for all the tips about LC. I have quite a long way to go to reduce it down to the sort of ‘mundane’ you describe, but got to start somewhere. Thank you especially for the ebb and flow point. You are right here that it seems a big deal to us as the limerent, but might not be such a big deal to the LO if done subtly and with trial and error. Good luck with the next bits of your journey out the other side.
@Serial Limerent
You make a great point about the difficulty with decoding signals right, and giving them out. It wouldn’t really surprise me if I found out I had put it all out there under the table by unitentionally leaking ‘tells’ without saying a word. If I have though, it has not caused LO enough discomfort or concern to seek any greater distance from me. I totally accept how easy it is to get this stuff wrong on either side of the limerent/LO equation – it’s more than tricky.
Hi Lim-a-rant,
Sorry for the delay. It’s been a long and rewarding day. Thanks for wishing me well on my outdoor adventures.
I have great news! I think you can reduce your limerent symptoms AND maintain your friendship. I’ll tell you what worked for me. By the way, I am back to a normal friendship with my LO2 and I have a lovely friendship with my LO3.
First, let me say thank you for your willingness to be friends with a woman even though you are attracted to her. I am very grateful for my male friends who value me enough that they are willing to tolerate the discomfort that comes when they are attracted to me. I also love how respectful they are of my boundaries. I love male/female friendships, but I understand it is harder on you guys than it is on us ladies.
I want to tell you something my oldest daughter said to her younger sister when they were talking about male friends. She said, “I’m never vulnerable with my straight male friends. They can’t handle it. They fall in love with me every time.” I think she recognizes that she has to keep her guard up around boys her age and unfortunately, it’s kind of true. Men seem to have more difficulty in a male/female friendship. I admire that you are willing to try.
I also want to commend you for your ethics. You are committed to your SO! That is great news.
Okay, I will tell you what worked for me.
TRANSFERENCE
SOLID BOUNDARIES
and
AVOIDING LO DAYDREAMING
Here is what happened. After 20+ years of friendship with my LO2, I became limerent. He was on my mind ALL OF THE TIME. I couldn’t stop thinking about him. I thought I was losing my mind. I wanted the intrusive thoughts to stop, but I didn’t want to lose the friendship. I tried other deprogramming methods and they weren’t working. I became desperate enough to transfer my limerence to someone else. Before transferring, I learned that I had taught my brain to put LO front and center in my mind because I had enjoyed daydreaming about him. I decided that when I transferred my limerence, I would minimize daydreaming about the new LO. I made a list of ways to distract myself which included things like playing candy crush, running, and engaging in the LwL community. I also learned that the reason I daydreamed about LO2 is that I was regulating my mood. I looked for different ways to regulate my mood. I took up running. Now my favorite mood regulators are exercise, sunshine and gratitude.
To transfer, I made a list of possible candidates. I think there were just under 10. I narrowed it down I think to 3 and leaned into those relationships. One person stood out so I kept my focus on him. I thought this wouldn’t affect him because I thought it would all be in my head, but it did affect him. He disclosed his feelings of attraction to me. At that point I was fully transferred, but not ready to let go of limerence so I asked if he could live with feelings of attraction and never act on them. He said he could and our friendship blossomed. We have been friends ever since. Occasionally, LO3 says he needs to distance himself from me to focus on his family. I’m completely supportive of him putting his family first and I gladly give him space. It never lasts long. We don’t cross boundaries. We have friendly interactions. Two and half years later and we still have pleasant interactions. Like any friendship, sometimes we talk regularly and sometimes we go weeks without talking. It’s nice.
I think you might consider transferring your limerence and limiting your daydreaming.
Good luck!
Hi Lovisa,
Glad you had a good day and thanks again for the long and thoughtful reply.
“First, let me say thank you for your willingness to be friends with a woman even though you are attracted to her. I am very grateful for my male friends who value me enough that they are willing to tolerate the discomfort that comes when they are attracted to me”
I have had other crushes and a different LO (didn’t know it as that then) where we were both unavailable that ended up with a mutual disclosure, were the friendship had to be let go on a kind of risk-reward calculation. But on this one it is tolerate the discomfort over losing her every time – there is too much there for both of us to throw it away, which is what makes me determined to beat it. I used to think the best option could be disclosure and then acting like adults with how to manage it, as I strongly think we both could (a bit like your LO3 situation and how you got that to a good place?). But the stories of almost everyone here who disclosed have taught me it is rarely as straightforward or predictable as we expect after disclosure. It’s put me off and made me think more about how it can be managed without disclosure. Yours actually seems like one of the best outcomes from disclosure here.
“Men seem to have more difficulty in a male/female friendship. I admire that you are willing to try.”
Thank you, that’s kind. LO makes it so easy for me by offering such a lot as a friend. I think the male brain tends not to be wired in such a way as to be able to decode ambiguous signals correctly, as much as the female brain is (duly acknowledging the stereotype and the binary I seem to make here – I mean “in general” not “every time). So I am totally open to yours and also SL’s points above that I might have read the room wrong. However … as a sidebar to the story about the mutual disclosure with previous LO, the situation with signals then felt much the same as this one does, and then I had read the mutuality right. So my track record isn’t terrible on this. However again … and this is the crux … I am not available. So no matter if it is selfishly tempting to find out if its reciprocation or a misreading, I have sort of concluded that no (unselfish) good can come of it, and no possible answer produces an easy outcome.
So, back to trying to live with it!
Thanks for sharing the list of your strategies for holding rumination at bay. Exercise always helps me too. I used to play a game a bit like Candy Crush but ironically found that was impacting my mental health (I have a slightly addictive personality so would spend hours on it). Anyway – I will think more about what this list looks like for me. Putting the boundaries with LO in place without disclosure is going to be trickier and I think the onus is going to have to be on me. It is hard to try and say to myself “the friendship can be this but not that”. But I have to realise it is for the best, and can be done in small shifts – going to have a good think and make some goals. I am lucky that no huge boundaries have been crossed.
Thank you, by the way, for understanding from what I’ve said and the subtext of it, that I actually have a friendship here worth protecting – that I am not just using ‘friendship’ here as a bargaining chip to stay close to my LO – DrL also recognised that in his reply. The months of reading these blogs before I commented have had me seriously questioning myself a along lines ‘am I just kidding myself and using the friends idea to bargain?’. But the point is the friendship has been long term and it is about how to calm my limerence enough to let it get back there.
The transferring thing made me smile (and please please take this in the humourous way I mean it). I was imagining you sitting there shortlisting 10 and narrowing to 3 like a job interview! I am not lucky (?maybe unlucky as a limerent) enough to have ten LO-candidate women I am close to. I am quite ‘go hard or go home’ in life, either directing a lot of effort into people or not really bothering. I get glimmers about once a decade (exaggeration but not often) and when I get them, I get them big. So the other bit I am intrigued about is how you made the transfer ‘happen’ – how did the paperwork to go through, if you get me? If this is already explained somewhere else on LwL, tell me and I can look there. The other thing for me is how to redirect more of what I’m feeling back to my SO. I don’t think she can take on LO status now (maybe did once) but there is work we can both do to make improvements. That’s partly where my need to counter LO rumination comes in – I want to be able to be fully present in the moment when I’m around SO, and that has become a problem.
Thanks for chatting it all through with me, a total stranger on the keyboard. It helps!
You have some good questions, Lim-a-rant. I’ll do my best.
First, choosing a new LO really was like a job interview process. I believed that the whole thing would be in my head so it didn’t matter who was on my list. I knew that I would only need a little contact with my LO to create the fantasy version. The list was surprisingly easy to make. I didn’t include anyone who lives close to me because I feared an EA. I already know that I would never have a PA, but I’ve had an EA in the past so I try to safe-guard against them. When I had a clear winner, I leaned into that relationship. That’s all. I just leaned into our relationship. It caused LO3 to develop feelings of attraction for me which I feel guilty about.
How can you redirect your attraction back towards your wife? That is a great question! I initiated more flirting and physical affection with my SO. The physical stuff is what men like best. Us ladies like it too, but we love the emotional stuff more. Can you be more attentive towards your wife? Marriage Helper talks about something called “The Love Path” that I think is helpful for keeping the spark alive. I’ll look through my notes for information about the love path and if I find it, I’ll share it.
I hope that helps! I love your commitment to doing the right things. Best wishes!
These are my notes about the love path. This is from a YouTube video that Marriage Helper created.
Love Path
1. Attraction (think PIES- Physical, Intellectual, Emotional, Spiritual)
2. Acceptance (Do you accept me?)
3. Attachment (Will you be there for me when I need you?)
4. Aspiration (Common long-term goals)
Hi Lovisa,
Hope you’re having a good week. Thanks for explaining things in reply to my questions!
“I believed that the whole thing would be in my head so it didn’t matter who was on my list. I knew that I would only need a little contact with my LO to create the fantasy version” Wow, incredible to learn how this plays out for different folks. I’m honestly amused – in a nice way – at your shortlisting process and how well the outcome went 🙂 But more seriously I reckon it shows the deep level you’d reached of ‘really’ understanding ‘it is in my head, not about them’. I get that point mentally but am not yet where thats how my experiences with LO seem to play out. It could be that there were 300 people in a room but if LO was one, the rest might as well be invisible – like the moth to the flame. So that’s why I find it hard to imagine transferring for now. I think it starts with trying to deepen the ‘it’s in my head’ understanding.
Re the parts about my SO / love path tips, that’s also really useful for me to see, think about and work on. I have already found some ways to improve bits of that ‘despite the LE’.
It is kind what you said about my ethics. But rather than do a victory lap, I want to be honest and say I need to match my words and intentions with my deeds. I mean things like how I divide up my time, energies and mental space. I dislike that I am even using ‘divide’ as if both have equal claim on it. I need to remind myself daily that’s not the case. And I fail to balance this well fairly regularly when I need the LO hit enough. SO knows of LO and my friendship and that we spend time together, and I don’t try and keep her in the dark if questioned, any more than I have to without disclosing. But of course I recognise she doesn’t have all the facts and that if she did, she would be less OK with it.
As I discussed with another LWL poster elsewhere (Bewitched – and Bewitched if you see this, thank you for the great reply, which I am going to respond to properly when I next have time) – my biggest difficulty is having enough brain space from the effects of the LE, to be present as as normal around SO. I need more alone time so I can process, and I can be more irritable. I have improved some of this lately. But I sense SO knows I am ‘off’ for some unclear reason. And could even make the leap to understanding why if I can’t start turning down the limerence and my response.
I recognise how I describe a ‘limbo’ here. The purposeful bit for now is being here, talking it out with a plan for where I want to get to.
Working out exactly my actions towards getting there comes next, and I know I must take that decisive step. I’ll try to keep people here posted if it is of interest.
Hey, I have said a lot here and want you to know I am not doing that anticipating that you or other LwL folk will have magic answers for me. So please don’t feel a need for a reply trying to answer it all, as it’s my responsibility. Just being here explaining it and talking it through is helping. It is more than I’ve told anyone IRL by a long way – (which is basically nothing).
Good vibes to you and everyone here!
LaR,
Hey, just wanted to say hello. I’ve been following your posts (And of course, Ms. Lovisas posts)(Hello Dear) the last few days, trying to take in what I can. I’ve been on the forum here for about a year and a half. Kinda finally, sort-of, coming out of a very non-reciprocal LE with a Co-Worker. Which I’ve posted about all over. Perhaps you’ve read some of it.
Recently I’ve become rather good Friends with another Lady Co-Worker that ironically is the same age as LO. We get along great. She’s cute, intelligent and fun to tease. A ripe candidate for glimmer. Which I swear almost happened last week but I’m trying so hard not to become limerent again. It just can’t happen. However she is on my mind quite often.
What I’m struggling with now is the friendship part that so wants to take things to the next level. I don’t have an SO and neither does she. Which really helps fuel that desire to want to disclose. I really haven’t tried to hide my interest and I’m pretty sure she already senses my interest, but she has avoidant issues. So sometimes I end up with vague or non-reply answers in a txt. I know the timing now would be terrible anyway because she recently just got out of a 10 year relationship.
I’m really not planning to disclose but thinking of ways I could continue to be friends without falling too hard for her. It is difficult to be just friends with Women. Especially when sometimes they are just so darn lovable. Not to mention I would like to love someone. I do like what you said about having a friendship worth protecting. I think it definitely is in this instance. She’s already discussed a few personal issues with me so I feel good there is a level of trust already established.
I wish you luck in efforts to help reduce your limerent desires. This forum was a Godsend for me at my worst, so thank you for being here and posting your story.
Hi MJ,
Thanks for saying hi and appreciating me sharing my story. This is a very nice and wise community.
Yes, I have read bits of your story across the blog. It sounds like your previous LE had quite a massive effect on you, mainly hurtful. It also feels as if the newer lady in your life has really helped direct some of your focus away from the LO is a beneficial way. Would you call it a full transfer?
“I don’t have an SO and neither does she. Which really helps fuel that desire to want to disclose”
You are then in a different boat to me, where for you disclosure is not so far out the question. I’d like to understand better the reasons you’d rather not disclose. Is it fear of losing the friendship mainly driving that, or something else? Not trying to encourage you either way, just interested. You say you dont want to fall into limerence for her. The thing that struck me there is that if the glimmer does go up for you, limerence may be more likely through the uncertainty of not knowing – either reciprocation or an outright rejection would be more likely to nip limerence in the bud.
If you really want to keep it as a friendship without all that complication, I’d think about what barriers you need to put up now to keep it friendly but stop yourself sliding into an LE. If I knew then what I know now (from LwL) I would have kept more barriers in place. It is because I was a willing part of letting barriers change that I find myself in such a tangle now. It is harder to row backwards than not to row forwards if that makes any sense.
Good luck – it does sounds like you have made some positive strides!
Hello again LaR,
I wouldn’t say it has been a full-on transfer. I don’t really believe I’m entirely out of the LE woods yet because LO does still give me somewhat of a dopamine rush if I think about her long enough. If I happen to see her, that brings some of those old feelings back as well. However, seeing her is rare these days, but it is a very welcome, whenever I do.
To expound on your questions, Lady Friend is the result of my transferring buildings when our other operation was put on hiatus. It’s still a big mystery if we’ll ever go back there, but either way I don’t care. I’ve made the transition to my job in this building way better than I expected.
When I began there back in the early fall, I caught the eye of who would become, Lady Friend. There were some days of intense eye contact but my anxiety over not having LO was getting me down. So months went by and it remained an interest merely by eye contact. However I was becoming somewhat interested because there was no doubt she was noticing me, checking her out. Yet it was like I was in repeat mode with her because the eye contact got pretty intense, almost like it was with LO. And I was becoming irritated because I felt like it was just going to be another lame episode where I would dwell on my limbo-LE, feel sorry for myself and never approach this new Lady because I was in fear of being let down. I didn’t want that to happen again. I couldn’t.
After months of the eye contact and some mild depression waves over LO, I made the choice to just approach this young Woman one cold night in January. I simply walked up to her in the parking lot before work and introduced myself. I know it was random and awkward but I didn’t care. I just told myself over and over again I’m not going to have another LE with this person and I’m not letting her get away either. So I approached and it went alright. She introduced herself and seemed pleasant but refused my offer to walk with her into the building that night. I was ok with it because I knew I’d see her inside. A few more weeks went by and I was only taking baby steps in our exchanges. It seemed like each time we would meet, I was moving the needle slowly but I was only trying to establish normalcy. This seemed to work well for me because she would get the biggest smile when she would see me coming. I on the other hand was probably expecting more intense reciprocation, just because I wanted to believe her eye contact meant she was really into me. That has yet to happen but I’m finding out things about her that explain maybe why that is. Nothing terrible though. Come to find out she’s 29 and only older than LO by 2 months. She knows I’m 53. That doesn’t seem to bother her and if it does, she doesn’t seem put-off by it on the surface.
My goal all along has really been to just have as a Friend, since things never got off the ground with LO. Because this is how I really wanted it to start out with LO. It fascinates me sometimes how well this has gone. It is how, if things could have been like this with LO, then this is exactly how I wanted it to be. Simple normalcy. Friendship, a little flirting, get her phone number, etc. Because if it had actually happened like this, I might not have fallen into limerence or become as depressed as I did over her.
Our exchanges now are friendly and mildly flirty at best. Sometimes it’s even like that in our txting. More so me than her. I haven’t asked her out yet but if I do, I’ll consider suggesting it not as a date. Just as Co-Worker Buds. She recently broke up with a long time SO of 10 years I guess, so I’m not trying to be pushy or become her fall-back guy. It seems like she might even miss him somewhat but not greatly. Think there is a level of relief she appreciates now more than anything. Since they were having bigger problems back in January, I like to think it might be because I upped the ante then and finally approached her, but I may never know. They finally broke up in late April.
I really like the way things are progressing now but would hate to see me f@#! it all up because of disclosure. Again I feel like she senses my interest but if I let my feelings out, it could repel anything going forward. Right now I’m ok with the momentum of things. Since we work in very close proximity to each other, it’s easy to go and see her and then catch up on breaks. However there are times I can tell she needs to be left alone and since they’re easy to spot by the look on her face, I know when I need to chill out. Sometimes I’ll even purposely avoid her on break just because I don’t want to make my interest seem so obvious.
As for the glimmer, I think I’m trying hard not to let that happen because my guard will probably just go down and I potentially will make an a$$ out of myself if I let it happen. That’s probably why I couldn’t get past certain things to help me progress with LO. She f#@%!ed my head up good with all that insane beauty. I blame myself though, not her.. Lwl has been good for showing me what not to do this time around.
It’s those kind of parameters I’ve already set in place to help avoid getting back on the Limerence Train. Thanks to this Lwl Forum and the many many stories I’ve read that seem to have helped me work it out for the better.
Thank you for the good luck. Hope you’re not put-off by my wordy reply but that’s the beauty of this Forum. We just put it out there, into the ether for all to read and see what happens.
Hi MJ,
Not put off by length of reply at all. I’m not new here despite not commenting before, so am used to the length of the posts (it can use up some hours reading it, can’ it?).
Sounds like this new friendship is quite cathartic for you, proving that if you do things differently to how you did with LO, it can and does turn out better.
All I would caution is that if what you really want – for now at least – is friendship, then keep taking care with the boundaries. There is a limbo land filled with horrors (even if sometimes also fun) between a pure friendship and full-on limerence and disclosure. You will know this too well from your previous LE. I know it too. Try and keep yourself in the current zone and work on the friendship for what it is. Be open to having to pull back a bit if you feel it getting top close to LE. From what I read she is important to you as a friend, and so my situation of ‘friendship worth preserving’ applies. If they take on LO status to you, it really ends up muddying that, I find.
To your earlier point about “so darn lovable” – yeah, I really hear you!
“However … as a sidebar to the story about the mutual disclosure with previous LO, the situation with signals then felt much the same as this one does, and then I had read the mutuality right. So my track record isn’t terrible on this.”
Leading up to my disclosure I would have sworn LO had mutual feelings. I have had more than a few past relationships in my single days where I caught the vibe of attraction and read the room right. LO was giving me all those same vibes. It is actually what started my LE. Even now she can still give me those vibes.
@Speedwagon – thanks again for the caution vibes. I’m nowhere near as sure as you say you were about LO’s feelings. It maybe didn’t come across in my last message but I don’t think I am any better at this reading the room right lark than anyone else. It truly is a dark art and I have been right and wrong before. All I can claim is that I’m certain I’m uncertain either way. This part isn’t the main thing that stops me disclosing though – it boils down to the barriers mentioned before and the ‘no good answer in the circumstances’.
Have you ended up absolutely convinced (after the disclosure conversation) that there was no feelings back, or does it remain a possibility that because of the barriers, your LO might have just felt it easier to say she didn’t have any?
I don’t mean to muďdy any waters. And again I would stress that I am nowhere near going nuclear with a disclosure. This is just chat, not me trying to convince myself via this site that disclosing could be OK. It is thanks to you and others who have shared your disclosure stories here, and your feelings afterwards that you wished you hadn’t, that I pulled myself back.
I’m convinced she is not limerent. Nothing she does suggests she is distressed by me or compelled to interact with me more intimately. But I’m not convinced she does not have any attraction. She still does a lot of subtle things, some mildly tangible and some not so tangible, to suggest attraction. She acts in a way none of my other female employees do. I sometimes feel like she is also purposefully avoiding me as much as I avoid her. It can be rather weird how avoidant we both are of asking anything or telling anything personal of ourselves. I know why I’m doing it, but not sure why she is. Maybe she is just cognizant of my feelings for her and wants not to do anything to fuel it.
Bottom line though, none of it matters. Her tangible actions towards me suggest indifference so that’s what I’m going with in practical terms.
Your last paragraph really nails it there. Kudos for getting to that level of awareness and commitment to the current strategy. The ‘cognizant of my feelings’ and not wanting to fuel it sounds pretty feasible to explain the avoidance.
Interesting extra point worth thinking about there about needing to differentiate ‘not limerent’ (about that I am almost 100% sure) and ‘not at all attracted’ (which is more where the 50-50 ‘just don’t know’ comes in).
Speedwagon, I had an experience that helped me understand the eye-contact problem.
I was heading down the North rim trail at the Grand Canyon when several people were coming from the south rim to finish their rim-to-rim adventure. Of course I gave all of them praise and encouragement. One man stopped, leaned forward and looked deeply into my eyes while we talked. He is about my age and attractive. The level of eye contact surprised me and I wondered if he was coming on to me. I thought about it after we parted ways, me going down the trail and him going up the trail. I wondered if he would wait for me at the trail head. I mean there was so much eye contact. Well, he was at the trail head when I came back up. My SO and I talked to him. We learned that he is a pastor and he brought a group of men from his church to do rim to rim. Some of them missed their shuttle back to the south rim. They were trying to figure out how to get lodging or a ride to the south rim. The eye contact was just him trying to focus and listen to me even though he was exhausted from his adventure. I can see why you guys get misled by eye contact. I found myself wondering if this guy was flirting with me, too. He wasn’t flirting, he was just trying to be courteous and hear what I had to say, but I didn’t know it at the time.
Thanks, Lovisa.
Eye contact is a very mysterious thing and can mean a lot of different things in a lot of different situations. Some people are just naturally bent towards it and others avoid as you can tell it makes them uncomfortable. I remember back in my single days dating a girl and we had gone out a few times and I knew one night we were headed towards our first kiss. We were hanging out at her apartment and I could not stop looking at her. I was so compelled by my desire to kiss her that my eyes naturally just could not stop looking into her eyes. I remember her saying to me “you keep looking at my eyes, do you want to kiss me”? She knew. We kissed.
I’m not saying LO looks at me that intense, but over the last 2 years it has felt to me more intense than my other normal female relationships. It was this very eye contact that made me say to myself, “why does she keep looking at me like this, is she attracted to me”? That’s when the glimmer happened, when I started noticing the eye contact and then the positive body language. I fell hard.
I also catch her looking at me often. One occurrence that happens repeatedly is this. Let’s say we are both facing a computer screen looking at something on the screen and I am talking. I will sometimes turn to look at her as my thought finishes up and instead of her looking at the screen she is looking at me. Like she was watching me talk. It’s stuff like that that throws me off.
But that’s where any signs of attraction or desire from her end so I have stopped putting any importance on the eye contact, looking at me, body language cues. It’s too intangible and trying to figure it out can be maddening.
That makes sense, Speedwagon. I can see how it would throw you off when you notice your LO watching you instead of the computer screen. It would throw anyone off, but it could simply be the way she communicates. My dad does that, too. He watches me intently when we talk so that he understands what I’m saying. He has always been like that. The hiker reminded me of my dad, but I still found myself wondering if he would be waiting for me at the trailhead. It’s kind of funny now.
The story about the girl you kissed is absolutely adorable. Thank you for sharing it.
Hi Lim-a-rant,
You have given us a lot to work with. Thanks for talking through your LE here on LwL. I am delighted by your level of accountability. You aren’t blaming anyone else for your predicament and you recognize that it is your responsibility to show up for others even though you are struggling. That is amazing! I am so proud of you.
I think you are ready to address the big stuff: boundaries and standards. Like my dad says, “Keep your expectations low but never lower your standards”. In other words, hold yourself to high standards, but don’t expect others to do the same. What lines are you unwilling to cross? I’ll start. Going into this, I knew that I would never have sexual relations outside of my marriage commitment. I also know that it isn’t realistic for me to never have contact with anyone besides my husband. I took those two extremes and literally mapped out everything else until I knew where to draw the line for me personally. Here are my standards for male/female relationships.
I will communicate with my male friends
I will NOT be secretive about anything that relates to my male friends
I limit physical contact to one greeting hug and one goodbye hug if both of us are interested in hugging. I am comfortable with normal physical contact like helping each other climb a boulder or a tap on the shoulder to get attention.
I won’t spend alone time with a male friend if I’m wearing a swimsuit (this one actually came up twice and my SO set that boundary for me)
Absolutely no kissing male friends in the culture where I live, but if I visit the island where I used to live, we kissed everyone because it’s part of the culture.
I don’t tolerate negative talk about spouses. There is nothing bad to say about my SO, but if a male friend talked negatively about their SO, I almost never tolerate it. There is one exception with LO2, his wife has a low libido which baffles me and we talk about it sometimes. Maybe I shouldn’t, but it seriously fascinates me. I don’t know how he survived so long in that situation. Yikes.
I am okay with minimal flirting. I love to hear that I’m beautiful and I compliment my male friends in comparable ways. I’m okay with it as long as the flirting isn’t anything beyond what I would say to my guinea pig (I tell my guinea pig that he is a handsome little man all the time).
I might have left something out, but that’s all I can think of right now. I want you to consider what lines you won’t cross. I suspect that you have already given this some thought because you seem to be a person of high character.
Have a great day, Lim-a-rant!
I almost forgot, you are struggling with intrusive thoughts right now and you want to know how to get rid of them so you can be more present. My intrusive thoughts were the reason I transferred my limerence. Transference is what worked for me. I know it’s unpopular, but it worked. Also, I noticed that when I was on vacation with my family, I found some relief from the intrusive thoughts. Maybe you need a family vacation.
Good luck!
Thanks again!
Shortish version of the boundaries answer – I don’t cross physical boundaries with women, LO included, more than my culture’s accepted normals. Emotional and truth boundaries are harder and where I need to set it down better. Eg if I have been with LO I will tell SO that, but not always for how long, what we talked about etc. I worry that if that all came out I’d be close to a disclosure (sometimes arguably a good idea but not I think in my current place). But I try not to hold back any more than necessary to avoid that. Conversation boundaries with LO I am on the right side of normally, but there have been blips (similar to your example with LO2 but on my side). I am trying to learn by all of that to set things better, but their are some fine lines to walk for now – and also to consider how that relates to what my SO’s boundaries would be.
Booking a vacation often proves a good plan for me too, and gives space. Have one in a couple of months. More days away from
LO in a row and the intrusion recedes slowly day by day.
To the eye contact point – 100% get your point Lovisa that people make deep eye contact for many reasons. One is attraction – although it is only one *of many*, some cases will still be for that reason. What Speedwagon describes for him sounds similar to me. The problem for us is decoding the reason! It *could* be attraction, more likely not and there is some other driver. Back to my earlier point that part of my plan is to train myself to believe it is likely to be one of any number of those other reasons and fake it til I make it, as it were!
Lim-a-rant,
I like your boundaries! Keep it up.
….eye contact has a lot to answer for on the early limerence glimmer and slippery slope thereafter !
There should be a 2 second rule applied as an international law!
I actually called my LO about it once. Along the lines of ‘is it just me you look at this way?’ Not recommended to say this out loud of course !
I do think some people are just naturally more intense in their eye contact, but some know what they are doing it and play games with it as it’s subjective action with no laws (yet) on what is appropriate.
Or could be that LaR, Speedwagon , Lovisa and all simply have stunning shiny eyes with such compelling personalities that our LOs simply cannot take their eyes off us.
lol, IMOH! You are hilarious! I know you were joking about asking the question, “Am I the only one who you look at like this?” But there is truth in it. I don’t think my eyes are anything special, but you are funny to suggest it.
Hi Lovisa, I’m glad I made you giggle. I wasn’t joking, I actually did ask my LO outloud “Am I the only one who you look at like this?”
Wish I hadn’t, as it’s a kind of disclosure etc, but there we go, I was in mad limerence at that moment before ever hearing the term limerence before.
I love how you use your guinea pigs as a yardstick for boundary behaviours. I guess stroking the hair of a man friend (like you would stroke a guinea pig) is not permitted though!
Hahaha, you have a great point. I wouldn’t stroke a male friend the way I pet my guinea pig. Of course, male friends aren’t allowed to lay in my lap either. You are funny!
Ha ha ! you deliver the final funny line on the guinea pig analogy
“… male friends aren’t allowed to lay in my lap either ”
applause!!
Imho, now I’m really curious to hear what your LO responded to that question? Brave move btw, not for everyone!
Hi Trifles, well it was quite some time ago. I very rarely see my LO face to face, as he lives far away, which is a fuel to my limerence. Anyway, to answer your question I cannot remember exactly, it was late night. He made some joke to side step it, and said something along the lines of finding me attractive. So there is known mutual attraction between us, but obviously far too much on my side.
Imho, I was prepared to stop reading at “made some joke to side-step it”. Because that would have been very typical LO behavior. …But well, he gave you a bit more to work with! Damn charming LO’s..!
This might be a bit off topic for a non-coffeehouse thread but with the discussion of eye contact got me thinking. Maybe in a world of staring at smart phones half of our day we have forgotten the art of eye contact as a species. So someone actually stopping to make eye contact gives a high.
I know a lot of those “signs someone has a crush on you” online articles I use to read all the time sighted someone looking up from a screen or phone and making eye contact was always a strong sign. There’s a huge difference between someone talking to you while looking at their phone and someone putting their phone down and making eye contact with you. It’s the effort they made to give you their undivided attention.
I think it should be mentioned too, that with time over the last 20 years or so, it seems to me the meaning behind strong eye contact has changed. Back in the day, many of my relationships began with eye contact, which led to some pretty fun times with the opposite sex.
Cut to LO and there was no doubt, there were times her eye contact with me was deep and mysterious. On a few occasions where I would see her at her desk on her computer, she would see me walk by, look away and then do a double take, to stare back at me again, as if she was thinking, “I see you, come get me”. I mean, there was no fear at all in her eyes. Yet it turns out she probably has zero interest in me.
Even Lady Friends eye contact has been somewhat deceiving too at times. Whereas her eye contact with me in the beginning was strong. Making me believe she was super interested. In getting to know her, I wouldn’t say she’s not attracted or not interested in me somewhat, it’s just not at the level that I would have considered it to be now, like it was for me, say 20 years ago.
When I was younger, the eye contact always meant something good/better was about to happen. Nowadays I have to decipher harder, what it possibly means.
This is a great point, Adam and MJ. You’re right that in the smartphone era, so many have forgotten eye contact. So perhaps those who are or have been LOs for all of us are just that rare species that still do focused eye contact well, and we attach greater meaning to it than is meant, as we see it so rarely?!
Maybe I haven’t grasped the code enough yet about coffee house posts.
Mind you it could be quite a creepy coffee house to enter with all those staring eyes everywhere
Creepy? Never!
👀 👀 👀
After 10 months of the hesitation, I made a full closure yesterday (6/6) to LO in our last in-person, four-hour tea/snack meeting….
It marked a beginning of my wished authenticity with the enigmatic yet “familiar” LO and of hopefully a more substantial, long-distance friendship that will naturally end limerence soon or later…
I felt heavy/exhausted yesterday afterwards but tremendously released today… I had to do it my way, considering where I came from and how I have to heal more of my cptsd originated from my COO, where I’m going to visit in 3 days…
Now I feel very sad with a sense of loss and closure — a closure of a chapter in my personal myth/legacy…. 🥹
Wow Snow, you disclosed?
What does it mean, you told him you were limerent? Or are limerent?
And how did he react?
Maybe that really could start a long distance friendship or a full closure.
I just hope you don’t rely on his reaction too much or on his further behavior (contact or not). If it gave you peace, it was a good idea, if it started a new back-and-forth with him in your thoughts, I‘m not so sure.
But now concentrate on your trip, I hope you have a safe one and have a great time!!
I’m also interested in how this played out, you’re happy to share.
I’m also grateful for a chance to re-read this post. Although I’m not planning on disclosing, as I’m currently going through a contact hangover with LO, I drafted a goodbye message which I will never send as it would be too indicative of me having feelings. It was more for my benefit. NC starts again. I just hope I can make it longer this time.
Whoomp,
I don’t know how much you’ve followed my LE story; if you did, you’d know that I disclosed, on a ground of the permanent physical NC/closure due to the job layoffs. LO is relocating to another state and we’d be (already are) out of each other’s sight for good.
I would NOT advise anyone to disclose, especially
1. if LO is still in the same professional or/and personal vicinity;
2. if there is SO on limerent side;
3. if one is not somewhat Stoic, fully ready/determined to “lose face”, take a 100% rejection, and end LE (maybe the friendship as well);
4. if you’re not me — my cultural background and LE aim are quite different from almost every visible limerent here (not sure how many are silently in the site); I tried LC/NC several times, but they only backfired…
I’ve listed my own 7 reasons why to disclose in a post to Limerent Emeritus —
https://livingwithlimerence.com/coffeehouse-beating-limerence-when-no-contact-is-impossible/#comment-58061
I’m very glad that I did it, and feel really “settled” inside that I no longer hold this gnawing secret of 7 years and can start anew on my side… An unclosed/loose door mentally/spiritually hinders my moving forward and self-growth.
Good luck to your NC in an internal, substantial level….
@Snow
I think your decision to disclose to LO was has a similar effect to Speedwagon’s (feel free to look up his comments, it’s one of those Success Stories in here IMO).
Although his LO are still working under him and he’s doing the Low/Less Contact, it certainly seems like it kills of a lot of the tension between them and made his moving forward easier. Like it’s popping the “dream bubble”, although I think why his situation worked with his circumstance was that the LE wasn’t mutual. I imagine that if the LE was mutual, the limerence limbo will prolong and hurt more with the uncertainties and barriers.
@why,
I cannot tell yet whether my dramatic step will succeed (definitely not in a short time) since LE’s true closure has to take place in one’s own head, not just a realistic NC. I don’t know how Speedwagon has managed it, his way would not be effective for me — LO’s presence still hijacks my nerve system.
My situation should be easier to manage now than Speedwagon, due to its absolute NC (not online yet). But one’s mind is tricky; during my marriage, I had a smaller LO stuck in my head for 4 years, 3.5 years of which he was already relocated. The current huge LE, despite its fixed barrier and non-reciprocation, lingered longer and steadier, perhaps due to its strong “parental”-bonding (mainly felt on my side) nature for 5/7th of its time and due to LO’s regular attractive, supportive presence.
Only time can tell how this would turn out…. The disclosure just helps me “dump out” a gnawing piece inside me rightfully to LO. While feeling tremendously relieved, the forced NC still makes me sad and everything else around me surreal….
It’s time for a distracting vacation…
Mila,
“Wow Snow, you disclosed?”
I DiD indeed! I knew I would, as long as LO gave me the last in-person chance. (Absolutely would not do it through writing that would always cause confusions!)
I had planned it since last September, and decided it’d be the best time to do at the last contact before my travel and LO’s moving (in July). Only two weeks ago (almost a month after my lunch invitation), he responded to take it. But I was still not sure whether it’d take place, since he had a habit of changing his mind in the last minute with “legitimate, urgent excuses.
“What does it mean, you told him you were limerent? Or are limerent?”
Both. My conscious LE for a surrogate parental-bonding for the first 5 years, and subconscious LE for a pair-bonding for the last 2 years. (Did not mention at all about my jealousy of his pet LO).
LO denied that he knew the concept “limerence” but heard/knew about Tunnov (brushed off what he knew about Tunnov’s work). Then, we talked about LE like two scholars discussing an academic topic, I did more informing and he just listened without much interruption. During the entire time, I was an observer (not a doer) of my LE, so I could keep my objectivity and “serenity”.
I gave him a file folder (prepared since last September) that includes Wikipedia information on LE and a copy of DrL’s “10 steps to master limerence” (covered up LwL information). I could not possibly explain it well in my layman language, and I do not want him to get wrong ideas about LE.
On this two files, I red-pen underlined and made some notes on how my case/situations were/are related to what Wikipedia and DrL summarize. I intended to “educating” LO whether he already knew about limerence or not; he’s a scholar with intellectual curiosity and can take it impersonally. There was no time for him to read the entire files during the meaning, so he took it home and would mail it back to me.
“And how did he react?”
As usual, he briefly responded in academic, impersonal fashion/phrases, I could not detect any emotional reactions from his side. I was a bit excited due to too much of one-sided talking.
1. He said he would not judge me (“saying in my head: ‘now I know who you are’ — his words) — this I trust.
2. He assured me that my monologues did not and would not bother him if I continue. He admitted at the very beginning of my LE, he was confused by my intension and bothered by his obligated, polite responses, but later understood my aim to cure/heal cptsd, so just silently listened.
3. He said he wanted to remind as a friend and will try to maintain a friendship, still with limited communication — I am not sure how this would play out, since I’m only left with a largely silent textbox.
4. He promised that he would neither try to search our forum (he could google out that NYT article) nor conduct an independent research on LE — I can’t be 100% sure about this.
5. He inquired about DrL’s research in general and thinks LE should be officially acknowledged, categorized in the psychology field, so limerents can get help with sufficient knowledge and without so much embarrassment/guilt, in terms of its “pathological” signs. He thinks LE is scientifically/neurologically/psychologically valid, regardless the claimed “insufficient scientific data”. He thinks LE activities in one’s head are as real as religious activities in one’s mind.
“Maybe that really could start a long distance friendship or a full closure.”
At this point, I really have little idea how this is going to turn out later, I will closely observe my mind and let you know. As said before, I wanted to eliminate LE (already largely gone), but not affection/friendship. Yet with me, everything out of sight will be out of mind soon or later. I’ve evolved to live by 6 senses and verbal communications, leading to intuition, rationalization and possible connections; without the former two, there would be NO latter three.
“I just hope you don’t rely on his reaction too much or on his further behavior (contact or not).”
As you know, I was/am in limerence (interacting in the mind) primarily with the Phantom, not the realistic LO. In the later part of my LE, I rarely relied on LO’s realistic reactions (often disappointing), and ALWAYS prepared for the worst before my acts.
I did this time as well, and it turned out to be better than I expected, at least during the meeting. I’m very aware it could be just superficially friendly, since LO has always been agreeable, considerate, and mentally and spiritually supportive in person (even if he disagreed with me behind me). Confirmed by a mutual colleague friend (to LO and his SO), LO hated confrontation of any sort.
“If it gave you peace, it was a good idea, if it started a new back-and-forth with him in your thoughts, I‘m not so sure.”
As mentioned before to you, I wished to change this LE to an authentic friendship, which my culture and me value much more than “fleeting” romantic feelings. As DrL points out and we know by experiences, to be a possibly good friend with LO, one has to be authentic, not harboring or hiding the disturbing LE inside. Otherwise, we could not even behave like our true self.
I felt ZERO ounce of embarrassment while telling LO about my LE thoughts and symptoms, as if it were just another regular drug/alcohol addiction. I confessed as if he was already a good friend or a trustworthy confidant; there was little awkwardness on either side, but cordiality and some degrees of easiness. We talked about religion and realities activities, people’s pursuits of career, achievement, social status, vanity, life goals, and his future professional aims. He also told me in details about his family members’ summer activities and his planned moving… I got to know him as a person so much more in one shot. A lot of my intuition about him seems to be proven accurate — that familiarity I sensed in that first glimmer within 5 second.
Yesterday morning, I woke up without any subtle cellular-trembling for the first time in a long while. In my head, there is only the Phantom, which is not realistic LO — I know it clearly, and LO has been knowing about it for more than a year.
“But now concentrate on your trip, I hope you have a safe one and have a great time!!”
Thank you for your good wishes, Mila. The next weekend reunion in my hometown would trigger more stuff out of my system by seeing the remaining old sites and some old acquaintances… I’m quite anxious about it.
I still have 3 tutoring sessions before I take off on Monday night local time. Every preparation is in order.
****
Mila, you’re not 90 years old, just by the way you’re talking! Perhaps more outdoor running in this nice weather?
Typo: We talked about religion/buddhism/stoicism and their related activities and behaviors…
Another typo: “3. He said he wanted to remain as a friend and…”
Hi Snow,
I think it sounds very good. You said what you wanted to say, he reacted in an accepting, friendly way.
Of course it won’t turn any thoughts off like a tap, but it sounds as if one could move on from there in a positive way. It‘ll all happen in your mind, so you have a certain amount of control over how you‘ll develop that narrative.
I wish you a wonderful trip with lots of new experiences! It will be great for sure!
Mila,
Yes, I’m quite content with the very smooth disclose itself (though still deeply sad about this ending), it could not get any better. A continuous friendship is restated/“assured” though without any specific means promised. I don’t hold up much hopes here, since a long distance interactions/relationships of any kind have their huge limits and obstacles.
I was surprised and comforted by the fact that this time LO shared a lot of his world views, thoughts and some sentimentality about leaving this 19 yrs-old beloved job and “going down” to the new one in HS… I felt like being treated as a good friend, at least during the meeting. I wish we could have had more of this kind of substantial talks in the past 7 years, so he could appear more realistic — not that shapeless phantom related…
I feel I’m much less weighted to “move forward” (though I didn’t like to hear this phrase from LO during the meeting). Still my future stays cloudy at this point…
“It‘ll all happen in your mind, so you have a certain amount of control over how you‘ll develop that narrative.“
Ah, i would not trust my easily fantasizing/imagining mind, which could lead me to some wild woods agin… The reality of the total NC would and should have an ultimate control.
I’m getting more nervous about my trip, for some reasons. Thank you for your caring, Mila! 🫂
Snow,
Don’t get nervous!
You cannot anticipate how it’s going to be, so just let things come to you, all will be fine!
The most important is, travel safe and come back safely.
You’ve cleared the minefield.
It’s no surprise that you feel heavy and exhausted after disclosing. Keeping that secret takes a lot of energy that can be better used elsewhere. Managing a LE takes work.
There’s a lot to be said for clearing the minefield. It’s one thing to avoid a minefield, it’s something else entirely to clear the mines.
Whatever transpires in the future, even if it’s nothing coming from it, comes from a basis of authenticity. Everything is out in the open. Don’t underestimate that. There might be some residual things that pop up now and then but they’ll be a lot easier to deal with if they do.
Enjoy the trip!
Thank you for your understanding and support, Limerent Emeritus! 🤝
I have been feeling light-weighted since two days ago…
Hi everyone here at LwL
Popping back in to update as its been a few weeks since my original posts. I’m hoping that some of the strategies I’ve been using can help others (even just lurker readers here like I was for a long time) who find themselves in a similar place. Most of what I have shared so far about my LE is further up this same post.
After a difficult spell, I might just have had a small breakthrough. I feel nowhere near out of the woods, and I’m having a couple of days at the most lucid end of my LE – it is really up and down. But I’ve been using the strategies and thoughts that people (especially so far, Lovisa, Speedwagon and MJ) gave me to try to calm the LE. The limbo has dragged for many months and lately I have just felt a small movement for the first time in ages.
There was a difficult bit first where the compulsion to disclose bubbled right back up (TLDR – there are SO barriers and nothing good can come of disclosure). There is a great quote from DrL in this post that the worst time to disclose is when you really want to, but really know you shouldn’t. All of that was true and I grabbed hard onto that quote hard to pull myself back again. The wish to disclose is worse for me when the LE uncertainty level is higher, not when I feel more secure – I would love to know if that’s true for others.
Anyway, after that I refocused, keeping in mind what I discussed with you before, Lovisa and others, about 1. how friendship and comfort signals from women can easily blur into feeling like something much more *in the limerent male mind*, 2. setting appropriate boundaries.
I wrote a list in two bits. First, behaviours that LO shows that convey warm, comfortable friendship and make me feel secure (for anyone reading my posts for the first time, LO is a really long term friend who unexpectedly glimmered close to two years ago, so this is not your typical LE maybe, and I don’t want to/can’t go NC or blow it up with disclosure). Second, I noted some behaviours that tell me firmly that she feels nothing more than warm friendship. It included everything from actions, to body language, to conversation topics, to how contact was instigated and what the contact was and how time was being spent etc.
I wrote down some of these examples fully believing them, and others if I believed them or not. Like, in a ‘fake it til you make it’ way that if I try to convince myself of these things long enough, I may internalise some of it. Doing that can possibly help me be OK with this never being able to come out through disclosure. Because that’s one of the hardest parts – that I can’t (given circumstances) find out if it is/was reciprocal or not. I would even prefer to know that it’s not, than to not know either way – but only in a fantasy world where that discussion could happen and then everything go back to how it was like it never happened. But that world of course doesn’t exist. So I’m trying to train the uncertainty out by being hyper alert to signals either way (secure friendship / not attraction), all while leaving the maddening eye contact stuff in a middle space that I hope stops mattering so much.
The case looks pretty watertight when it is written down like that. Both lists had a lot of things on them.
I then wrote another list of ways to reduce various parts of contact slowly to get things to a level that is comfortable for me (and hopefully LO too). I think if I do this right, I can lower things to a better level without it seeming rude or abnormal within (to quote Speedwagon) the natural ‘ebb and flow’ that friendships go through. Again I was quite pleased with that list and I felt calmer for writing it. I have not really started working through the actions in any meaningful way yet. Opportunities will be better to do that soon. So I’m not trying to claim any huge victory, just some small steps taken.
I pretty much know I’ll have relapses when something will happen where the limerence tricks my brain and I end up thinking “my list MUST be wrong”. But at least it is there in writing to come back to and build on.
I think it is harder for me than for some here as I have managed to attach to someone that is in all ways a “Good LO”, who is warm to me almost without fail, and was a friend before the LE and not one I am prepared to sacrifice, even if that means internalising a lot of turmoil. Whilst I know this can’t be as hard as, say, having a narc LO, it does present its own set of problems for trying to pull back.
What has been quite incredible about making the first list is that I have finally been able to – just slightly – split what is going on in my limerent brain with what is happening in reality (I think this is roughly what Snowphoenix means across the blog when she discusses the phantom vs the real LO). If I had never found this place and learned about limerence I’m not sure I could have forced this split. Because it all feels ‘so real’. Confronting myself with the fact that LO just might not see or feel what my mind does – and that it might have been my mind creating it – has been quite eye-opening.
A couple of things on the list of LO’s behaviours might eventually be useful for deprogramming reasons. I am not sure about this part but I think there’s possibly been some leakage from my side which has caused LO to set some just slightly more solid boundaries. This will do me good, but can feel quite painful at the time – the painful moments are what I mean can be maybe held onto for deprogramming.
I hope some of this helps someone else out there too. There will be worse days than this one for me – this is probably the most positive spin I can put on the very trying limerent experience for now. On other days I can’t see it as clearly as this and I think that’s normal too.
I have a question for folks. Do a lot of you hold back from giving details here out of fear that, despite this being ‘an anonymous internet forum’, your SO or LO could wind up here and work out it’s you? Especially when I think I’m ‘leaking’ to one or both, this worries me – it stopped me posting at all for months. Trying to figure out if this is a stupid fear for me/one-in-a-million long shot, or a real thing that others also worry about. I know I have said quite a lot here but there is much more I wish I could say, and could get better support in response if I did, but this one point (that this is not behind a member wall) holds me back.
Take care of yourselves, be good, and I hope summer is providing good distractions.
LaR
LaR,
I’m glad to hear you are really working it out. You sound a lot like me with all the lists. I can’t tell you all the lists I’ve made over the last 2 years trying to sort this out in my mind. But those lists are very much a part of healing. I still journal my thoughts and emotions every day. Before my LE I never journaled a day in my life.
Unfortunately I had a rather sh#t day today and this is a timely post by you because it will serve as a good reminder how disclosure can bite you in the rear later. Over the weekend I had some mild tension with LO through text (she initiated the text) on a work matter. But what came out of it was her saying she feels like I am bothered by her and I treat her different in a negative way than others in the office. So today we talked more about that and what she has noticed is some of my coldness towards her as I practiced strict LC. I don’t disagree with this, I have been a bit cold on occasion even though I try not to be.
But here is where I got bit in the rear and the knife was twisted a bit more in my back. In the midst of her telling me this she said what she went through last year, meaning my disclosure, was very stressful and has made her fearful to talk with me because she does not want me thinking anything. Ouch!!! I played stupid and told her nothing is bothering me about her and I’m sorry if I gave that impression.
My strategy is still the same. Practice strict LC but just try to not to leak any resentment I feel and act cold towards her in any way. I’m in an impossible position, damned if I do and damned if I don’t. I literally feel cursed. I’m feeling pretty down and dispondant right now.
You are in a good situation to work this out without disclosure. Keep strong!
To answer your question about being found out, yes, it has crossed my mind. But I very much doubt LO would wander to this place.
Hi Speedwagon,
so she noticed LC and your restraint and asked you about it. I can understand that a bit, it seems she cares about your working relationship. I think her saying that she was fearful to talk etc wasn’t said to hurt, but as a way to explain/even kind of apologize why she pulled back- not because she wouldn’t like you but because she didn’t want to convey something wrong that would lead to hurt.
I just try to put into a positive light for you.
The thing is, my first reaction was also to be honest and talk it out with her because it would be bad if she would feel mobbed or ignored at her workplace. But then, if you engage in personal talk and she reacts in an understanding way and you get closer again etc, it might fuel limerence.
I feel with you because I have slightly similar issues, I also struggle to behave in an appropriate way, not too cold, not too warm, to preserve my friendship with LO, but it’s really hard not to let resentment (or one could call it self-preservation) creep in and be too cold.
I mean, if you feel that you cannot manage to rope-walk any more, maybe you could consider a conversation where you don’t disclose, but, like her, say that you might come over a bit cold because you don’t want her to feel harassed because of your disclosure back then(sorry, cannot express myself well in English, hope you know what I mean), it might go some way to explain some behavior without telling her you still struggle.
Yeah, I did think that too and meant to say it to Speedwagon in my reply – that if a conversation like that does occur between them, he also needs to get what he needs from it, that is not let a situation be manufactured where he feels forced to be too much warmer and it fuels limerence again. And the boss relationship (needing to be the responsible one professionally) adds another layer. Take care of yourself with this Speedwagon, as I’m sure you’re used to having to do by now.
Hi Speedwagon,
What a situation you’re in with LO! I always think of you and how hard this LE is on you, complete torture!!!
My thoughts are that you should not change your posture with her. You have to think of your well being first. I know is not her fault but she should not dictate how you ought to behave near her. You’re behaving correctly.
And, if she noticed your cold behavior towards her and it bothers her.. what’s the meaning of that? If she doesn’t care it should not bother her one bit. It means she misses your interactions with her…. No, no , keep you LC as usual and never mind how she feels. She’s going to drive you crazy with her attitude, beware! Don’t feel guilty either. Enough with the emotional seesaw… you found your formula to deal with her , keep it intact. Let her deal with her problems.
Wishing you all kind of strength and courage to bear with this LE.
Thank you, Nisor. Yes, I don’t plan to change my strategy at all. It’s been working pretty good. I just need to watch a couple things with my demeanor, that’s all. Should be OK.
I’m ready to get back at it now after yesterday. Feel more positive. Thanks for letting me vent!
Oh Speedwagon, that stinks. I have sympathy for both you and your LO. It was brave of her to admit how she feels about your disclosure and your post-disclosure behavior. It has been hard on her, too. It sounds like she misses the friendly, warm treatment that she enjoyed prior to disclosure. I know you can’t handle interacting with her like that because it is too stressful for you. Ugh, this situation feels impossible. It sounds like you handled it well.
I am reminded of something that happened with my LO3 back in November. He abruptly disappeared from the social media app that he and I were using to communicate. He didn’t give me warning and he didn’t tell me why he disappeared. I thought he was saying “goodbye” to me. I wanted to respect his boundaries so I didn’t reach out to him for an explanation. I accepted that he was saying “goodbye” to me. I cried for a whole day. I had a terrible headache from all the crying. After a few days, the pain subsided and I accepted the new normal. On day 5, he texted me to explain why he abruptly departed. He said that it had nothing to do with me, but that he felt like he was too obsessed with the data in the app and he needed a break from it. He wanted a break from the app, not me. He was sorry that he made me cry. I suspect that his break was from me, but it’s okay either way. I know he is doing his best to be a decent human being.
Speaking of doing one’s best. That is what you are doing. You are in a difficult situation and you are working hard to do the right things for everyone involved. It’s admirable. Hang in there. I believe you will figure this out. You have come so far in your journey.
Thanks, Lovisa. I can always count on you for a bit of encouragement. Like most of us here I am just trying to find as much peace in my life as I can in the midst of this. It has been a long journey and I hope it has an end to it someday.
SO, LO, anybody I know in fact….I’m not just protecting myself but the LO from discovery or the judgment of the occasional members of the public who come by here and post criticisms.
LaR,
Hello again, good update from you. Glad your strategies seem to be working. I wish I could have been more organized like that throughout the worst of my LE.
I never journaled extensively but I wrote the highlights and coincidences down in a calendar book. Trying to discern why things happened when they did. The rest came out in the form of poetry. So I can look back on that time now and remember where I was emotionally. Being able to pour that out in sadness somehow has helped. In thinking of that time, I am grateful I didn’t let the cat out of the bag and disclose. I really wanted to but I like to think it was divine intervention that stepped in. I’m not even sure quite what I was going to say but I think it revolved around hoping for an ultimatum from her, that I more or less thought I could squeeze out of her. So glad I didn’t force the issue. It probably would not have ended well. These days I just miss seeing her around and knowing she’s not in the same building as I am now. I think of a time that when I do see her again, hopefully I can be pleasant enough to where perhaps we can make small talk about work related matters. Even if it’s just as simple as asking her how the job is treating her. I’d like to think she would reciprocate without being offended I would
dare speak to her.
I recognize some of the behaviors with my Lady Friend, that you and Speedwagon mention. I like to think I’m not transferring my limerence on to her but there are times I feel like I want so much to tell her some deeper feelings I’m having. Because she seems like she would be receptive, but then I think maybe not. (Some of the stories from others in the forum and especially from Gallant lately, have me completely ill of considering doing so.) There has been some of that maddening eye contact you mentioned going on between us and that alone just drives me insane with the great hope she might be interested. I was dealing with some of that on Friday at work and noticing that it kept happening throughout the night. Her hair was tied up in double braided pigtails and I’ve commented to her before how cute she looks when she wears it like that. Friday night she seemed annoyed I mentioned it again, so I more or less made a quick recovery and kicked rocks. Trying not to want to kick my ass in the process. There are times I’ve had to just purposely avoid her because I feel like if I hang around too much, it will just be too obvious to her what my angle is. So avoiding her seems to help in striking a balance when it’s necessary. This week looks like it may be a week I have to do more of that avoiding than engaging with her. Again I don’t want to call this limerence because there is really no glimmer but I wonder sometimes if there are elements of transference happening since LO is basically out of the picture now. It wasn’t my plan, but wtf?
As for LO finding out about this place, I highly doubt that would happen but I know I should never say never to the thought of it happening. I know I haven’t tried to hide too much of what actually has gone on during my LE and know I’ve mentioned we work in a major US city for a major US automaker. I think she could put two and two together if she tried hard enough. I don’t really care though. If she knew it was me on here, I think I’d like her to be slightly horrified and yet flattered all at the same time.
Hi MJ,
The poetry sounds a really cool and cathartic way to get your thoughts out.
I might make it sound like I’ve been organised with the lists etc, but honestly speaking i’ve been in a firestorm for ages. I’m past most of the pleasurable bit of the LE and into full rumination. For the first time I find myself ‘really’ wanting it over, at least most of the time (It is more difficult and less frequent to get the dopamine hits now, but when I do it is still amazing – unfortunately so in many ways for moving om).
Your story of how your Lady Friend was about the pigtail comment is the perfect example of something to put on lists like I’ve made. If your aim is still to keep it light and friendly and not to transfer limerence / not disclose, this is perfect evidence. You nudged a boundary and she didn’t seem to overly like it. I can’t remember if you said she is available, and so whether a different path is even open to you? But it sounds like most of the time you’re playing it well just letting it develop as a friendship.
I feel like we only have room for one LO in our lives (in my case, I wish beyond all things that my brain didn’t even have room for one LO). So when I have discussed transfering here, I feel pretty hopeless about the prospect! I could scan a room with hundreds of people in it – if LO was one of them, she’s all I’d notice. Your situation may vary!
Keep going – you seem in a decent place overall compared to days gone by.
@LaR,
The poetry is very cathartic because it usually brings with it, plenty of tears. It is pathetic a guy my age is like that but that’s what LO does. All the emotion and sap pours right out of me. Some of my best works I feel were written when I was saddest over LO. Then again she’s always made sad, so the poetry is filled with emotion and deep longing.
Totally get what you mean about the rumination. It can be an incredible high. I like to go to certain places where I always wanted to take LO and get lost in the perfect fantasy. Walking with her along the beach and pier, playing in the water together, or taking her for ice cream. Even though those thoughts aren’t as frequent now, they still bring back such pleasant and fake memories. So weird how they seem so real and evoke such emotion, yet never even came close to being real. It’s madness that rumination and so hard to want completely out of. I feel kind of hopeless myself.
Like your LO, I could totally spot mine in a crowded room full of beautiful Women too. Yet none of them would even come close to being like her. She is very unique in how she carries herself, her walk and how she dresses. I’d be able to pick her out of a crowd, in a second.
To answer your question, Lady Friend is available but I think she’s kind of in a place where she wants to remain unavailable for the time being. She just got out of a 10+ year relationship with a guy and I don’t believe she’s all the way over him yet. Damnit anyway but we’ll see what happens.
One slow day at a time..
„ I think it is harder for me than for some here as I have managed to attach to someone that is in all ways a “Good LO”, who is warm to me almost without fail, and was a friend before the LE and not one I am prepared to sacrifice, even if that means internalising a lot of turmoil. “
Just wanted to say hi from a fellow limerence-for-a-longterm-friend.
My advantage is that said friend will leave workplace and town soon. It’s sad and what caused limerence for me.
I wonder if I ever developed this LE without him leaving, I don’t think so.
But it is how it is, I got limerent, it’s a horrible struggle because , as you say, there’s a friendship at stake.
I‘m actually not sure if I really managed to keep it intact. Of course, we are still friends, but I don’t know, I had/have to harden towards him to keep limerence at bay and that affects my friendship-feelings too.
I wish you good luck and hope you can get through it with friendship intact- I know that everyone here thinks differently, but I do believe it’s possible.
Hi Mila,
Thanks for your thoughts and wishes!
It is definitely going against the experiences and wisdom of most people on here to think we can be friends with an XLO, but I do think we might see a slanted sample of people who had a tough experience, versus others who just fell for a friend and eventually worked their way out of it (yes, I know I might be ‘bargaining’ here).
Thing is, as sounds like is also true for you, there was a really solid friendship in place for years before. We got closer and other events meant I let it happen. I understand what people here mean when they say a friendship between a limerent and an LO is inauthentic because the LO is lacking key information about what motivates a lot of the LO’s actions. But much (admit – not all) of the actions happened before all this, would have continued to, and I want them to be able to happen again as friends.
But I do recognise that I have to quietly rid myself of the LE without disclosure to make that in any way possible. And maybe it won’t even be – time will tell. My choice has been to internalise it and take the hit of that, not blow it up or slowly choke it out of oxygen. I can relate to what you say about having to ‘harden’ towards him. I am the more reserved character anyway in my LE but wonder if LO has hardened a bit lately based on a bit of guess work / my leakage. But not to a point where the friendship is threatened, just towards setting clearer and better boundaries, it seems.
Do you have any tips for how you moved past the worst limerence phase and got things on a slightly better footing as friends?
Lim-a-rant,
I‘m not sure I‘ve got any valid tips because I moved back and forth all the time, sometimes believing I found the key and then relapsing.
It helped me for a while to stop every time before texting (lots of contact being texts), take a step back and think how I would text if I wasn’t limerent. Kind of play-acting, but also reinforcing reality.
My LO was kind of reciprocating. He is a very drawn-back type and I think he was limerent for me as far as he could he limerent, but never actively, if you don’t count very frequent texting as active.
Actually, this was the thing that helped me most, that he was so passive and always giving a little less than I wanted.
It helped me to post here too, and recently a post of Lost in Space helped me enormously (Lost in Space, are you ok, by the way?)
It was basically saying that this person I’m limerent for simply doesn’t exist (phantom-like), this caring, loving sensitive friend. There is someone who is still my good friend, but without the glimmering and enhancing features that my needy brain gave him.
I don’t know why it helped me so much, but I immediately stopped expecting stuff from him
all the time and being angry or feeling rejected.
Of course that paled and now I struggle again a bit, not against positive feelings, but against getting angry at him all the time, some knee-jerk-reaction of waning limerence, I guess.
Hi Mila, I’m ok, thanks for asking and sorry to just disappear! I haven’t been on this site very much in the last month, but just happened to check today and saw you ask about me, so I wanted to let you know everything’s ok and nothing bad happened. It’s weird, recently I just haven’t been thinking about limerence as a concept much at all or feeling much of a call to read/write/think about limerence…
My family of origin had a little crisis a few weeks ago but everyone pulled through it ok and is doing better now. My SO is happy and enjoying life and we’re at a good place in our relationship. We’re getting ready for a nice summer road trip with the kids next month, and have been having fun doing things around here this month. Work’s been going well, I’m going to the gym regularly, playing music a lot, doing fun stuff with the kids… life’s been pretty good!
My LO has enthusiastically thrown herself into her mental health treatments and is practicing a lot of self care and she’s also been happier than I’ve seen in a long time. Me and her have been in contact pretty much daily with lots of really warm interactions (still with the same boundaries though), so honestly that’s probably why I haven’t been thinking about limerence much lately, because I don’t feel any uncertainty, nor have I been experiencing much in the way of unpleasant feelings. Most likely this warm phase won’t last forever and there’ll be another cold spell at some point – it’ll be interesting to see how it feels next time (I tell myself I’ll be better prepared next time, but honestly I’m sure it’ll still hurt really bad if/when it happens – but that’s a worry for another day).
But again, thanks for asking about me and remember me! Sorry I haven’t been keeping up with your posts recently – are you doing ok too?
Hi Lost in Space,
good to hear that everything’s going smooth for you! It’s quite a while for your LO not to withdraw, isn’t it? Maybe the last conversations and her new knowledge about her mental health did change something. Maybe you even could sail into a „normal“ friendship after a while?
I‘m in a good place concerning LO I guess, it’s funny, but I thought the same, that the concept of limerence doesn’t help sometimes since it’s kind of another labeled drawer to put feelings and connections into.
It’s sometimes more useful just to think of my LO as a normal person in my life. It makes me behave more normally too.
I‘ll see him tonight, let’s see how it goes. There will be other people, maybe even his SO, I‘m not very excited and feel ok.
When I struggle, it’s against feelings of anger, when he behaves insensitively (or what I see as such, still sometimes judging him different from how I judge other friends).
I had some warnings concerning my health- back pains, longtime blood sugar too high while being on the lower limit of weight etc, and I decided to get really healthy and sporty now, as a new focus in my life.
It’s nice to hear from you, I wish you a relaxing holiday with your family!
“If she knew it was me on here, I think I’d like her to be slightly horrified and yet flattered all at the same time.”
MJ, that is funny! In the beginning I thought a lot about LO finding me here – no one else would have known the details. If he saw the dates I had posted and connected that to the messages we had exchanged, he might have found me out.
I would have wanted to say more on here but I purposely kept the details scant and scattered my story around the site. Now that more posts have piled up since then, he would have to put in a lot of effort to connect the dots. And let’s face it, our LO’s are not that interested!
“And let’s face it, our LO’s are not that interested!”
OMG Trifles, so on point and worth constantly reminding ourselves that LO’s no doubt have something else to do with their days!
Thanks @Trifles,
Very true. I feel like limerence is still pretty much under the radar. Unless LO by chance was actually obsessing on someone herself, I can’t see her finding much interest in a place like this. The Woman could literally have any Man she wants, so I doubt if there is any shortage of potential suitors (besides her current guy) in her world.
Glad we can maybe help each other out a bit Speedwagon.
There’s honestly so much more I want to say than I can here for now, but our LEs have an awful lot in common (more than I can let myself say here for now, but trust me from what I have read of yours) but with differences too. Stay strong. You have done so very well. It’s a bit unreasonable, for me, for her to pull you up on being cold when she knows full well really why you’ve had to be.
However ‘good’ or not our LOs are, I think that brings its own problems. Sometimes I wish my LO would treat me like s**t, just for a day, to release me from the spell (it probably wouldn’t though?). It never even gets close, but I realise whichever way round this happens, the other way will seem better.
I’m just more mad than anything that God, or the universe, of whatever force of nature seems to be working against me. I was feeling pretty good and stable going into the weekend and then yesterday and today happened seemingly out of nowhere. Feels like a real setback.
Oh this sucks and I feel for you. Thinking back to relationships of mine gone South, I just can’t imagine it happening and having to be in such close proximity as you are at work. I dread some of this ever happening with my LO.
Could you try and use it as a force for good – to kick start a conversation with her about how she *does* want interaction between the two of you in the office to be? (and have a little bit of your say on that too). Obviously you can’t be too warm, but now she is saying not too cold (compared to how you treat other people) too. You might need to help her understand why – personally but mainly professionally – you have had to keep distance, without turning it into the massive deal that it has been internally for you.
I think you did the right thing claiming you’re not worried about anything to do with her now – like saying “I’ve moved on” (which it seems you have, from the worst of the limerent thoughts, now it is more about how to have a functional work relationship?). I wonder if a discussion where you try and iron out what that looks like might be useful.
It might not hurt her to know from your perspective that, while you take responsibility for having disclosed and all its after-effects, it has been difficult professionally speaking since for you too, to strike the right balance.
She would have to get more say in such a discussion, but what you’d need from the professional relationship would hopefully matter a bit too.
It sounds to me like she does still like you as a human. So would trying to work it out a bit between you help? Maybe this is a silly idea, idk. You will know your own situation best.
I often imagine LO on this site, so I always share vague details and am conscious of not getting in to the specifics too much. Also, full disclosure, part of me secretly hopes he’s on here because I’m hoping I’m his LO and feelings are mutual. But then I think oh no, maybe he has another LO. And at times I think what a shame I can’t speak to him about limerence in general because I know he’d find it fascinating.
Today’s mood: had a slight stomach lurchy panic moment thinking what if a male became limerent for me and contacted me as much as I contacted LO. I would feel super uncomfortable. Using that as fuel to hold back on contacting LO now for a bit. Bathe in the embarrassment and shameful display of adoration of the past to cleanse myself ready for a more purposeful future with integrity.
I give me a day before I crumble…
@whoompthereitis
“Bathe in the embarrassment and shameful display of adoration of the past to cleanse myself ready for a more purposeful future with integrity.
I give me a day before I crumble…”
Every word there and in the rest of your message is so on point (I have no idea if this reply will appear in the right place). Trust me, there are limerent males like me (and no doubt females too) holding back what feels like all the time from over-contacting our LOs (it could be 24/7 if we had no filters). That’s not just if you have barriers like an SO – as in my case – which mean it is right and proper to hold back from the LO – also because we think over-contacting will spook the person out. It probably doesn’t apply to all limerents though!
I know I hold back a lot. Usually it’s one or two texts and e-mails per week unless something is going on with the church. I sure would like more contact, though. LO has made his own crush on me obvious but doesn’t message me often, either. Holding back to protect marriages, perhaps? (Or way too busy. The amount of responsibilities this man has taken on, astound me.)