Another visit to the LwL coffeehouse.
For newcomers, the purpose of these posts is to provide a forum for general chit chat for members of the LwL community who want to catch up and talk about their own limerence experiences (or anything else). An open thread to share ideas, basically.
Nevertheless, I do tend to try and get the discussions started with a topic of discussion, and today’s is all about limerence recovery.
One of the biggest issues with unwelcome limerence – say becoming limerent for an unavailable LO, a dodgy LO, or because you are married – is the secrecy. Bottling up all that limerence energy internally can lead to a sort of psychic constipation. There’s no safe outlet for your limerent feelings because you can’t express your feelings openly, or reveal how infatuated you are with someone you don’t actually want to be infatuated with.
That can result in the already toxic reinforcement of limerent rumination getting even worse. It’s like you have a massive internal electrical storm building up, but it can’t be safely discharged.
Another problem with secret limerence is that it makes one of the most powerful forces for recovery from person addition unavailable – social accountability. You can internally resolve to take action towards recovery, but that lofty aspiration doesn’t really turn into a commitment. To make the goal more concrete, it really helps to have someone you trust (whose good opinion you care about), to share your plans with. Declaring your intention to change to a trusted advisor keeps you honest. You know they will notice if you begin to backslide. It’s a bit like a deadline – a form of accountability forces you to take action, instead of just thinking about taking action.
Social accountability is one of the benefits of the LwL community, of course, but it’s also a bit unstructured and haphazard when you are casually popping into the coffeehouse to catch up.
Reflecting on these issues revived an old idea I had about a possible service that could be offered to solve the public/private conflict: Limerence bootcamp.
The idea would be that a small group of limerents meet online for an intense and personalised recovery programme, in a private community. You’d get the camaraderie and accountability of mutual commitment, but on a private platform. It would mean a month of online coaching and discussions in a closed community that dissolves when the bootcamp finishes.
I’d be the drill instructor, naturally.
I can see some upsides, but some downsides too (even in a closed group there would be a sense of “exposure”).
So, that’s the starting point for today: Limerence bootcamp. Useful or not?
What do we think?
Hi Dr. L,
A Limerence Boot Camp service
sounds great , specially you being the drill instructor! But, didn’t you say you barely have time for the blogs and finishing your book? Surely hope it happens when you get more free time and have finished the book. Will be waiting!
Have a great weekend.
Thanks, Nisor. And yeah, you’re quite right – this is thinking about what might be possible after the book submission deadline 🙂
My first thought was „yay!״
Finally somewhere to talk openly!
But then I‘m not 200% sure if it would be for me.
I feel that this stuff is so individual. While some comments help me enormously, some don’t ring a bell at all with me, but help others. I often have the feeling that our stories and background are so different that it would take different approaches for everyone. I feel that in my special case of one of my best friends as LO I have to wind my way through different phases, sometimes I need tough love but most times I just need an understanding ear because I’m the end unfortunately I‘m the only one who can really judge my situation.
Tough love at the wrong time just makes me shut my ears, and sometimes I just need a break from being on LwL because it focuses my mind on my LE, something I want to do less.
But then, I‘m really a special case, and maybe for most of the others, especially these in the height of their LE or struggling to keep NC and feeling lonely, it’s a brilliant thing.
Me, I would love to be able to write more openly because it wouldn’t be public like it is here, and would love support, but then I‘m a bit scared that being accountable means now even to feel obligated to ruminate about LE instead of distancing myself at least now and then.
Although advice from Dr.L himself would be priceless, of course!
I‘m just, like Nisor, not sure if it wouldn’t be too much to handle for you. You‘ll have several more or less desperate people crying for advice night and day, and as you are a kind soul you would try to help them all timely, all on top of your job and the book.
Hi Mila – I just wanted to say that I sympathize. My LO is also a friend, the husband of one of my best friends in fact. I had known them for 18 years before the limerence kicked in. It is difficult to navigate recovery and maintain the friendship at the same time. I am confident that we can do it! Stay strong.
Hi Dani,
Thanks! Yes, it’s a bit like rope-dancing…
Now, I have the advantage that my LO finally decided to move away, so I‘ll see him very rarely from summer on. Of course it’s also sad but it will help.
At the moment I‘m quite limerence-free, having had a busy week with a lot of socialising with new people and was not thinking about him much.
Husband of best friend, that’s tough! I haven’t read your posts, but it sounds like a very precarious situation. I wish you strength! I‘d go for distraction, workwise and socially, it’s the thing that seems to help me most to get some perspective.
Dr L
It sounds like a brilliant idea to me. It could be such a helpful, focused, accessible, option. I do worry that sometimes LwL members can go round in circles of friendly fluffiness, perhaps feeling enabled by the conversations, and avoid or defer taking serious steps to end unwelcome limerence or limerence which could cause damage to themselves and others.
I include myself in that observation, of course, which is not intended to cause offence to anyone.
If limerence is considered an addiction, how is it more shameful than being an alcoholic or drug addict? I get that your partner probably feels worse if you’re addicted to a person rather than a drug, but is it really all that different? It’s an addiction that provides a pleasant distraction from reality.
When people are addicted to alcohol, they can go to AA. I have had friends in AA. They openly admit it because they are sober when everyone else is drinking. Unlike alcohol, we can’t really swear off people (same issue with food addiction) but a support group with steps or a goal could be exactly what works for some people 🤷♀️
You might need to be careful that everyone in the group is from very different places or they might recognize the others involved (not just the LO but their spouse etc).
I’ve talked openly with friends about my LO. The difference obviously being that I’m not married and I was never limerent when in a relationship. But I’m not ashamed to have been addicted to a person. I think the psychological mechanisms behind it make a lot of sense and perhaps more people owning their sh*t would encourage more to do so. What if the shame of it just compounds the limerance? Maybe admitting the problem more broadly would give you the impetus to kick it.
The other thing that occurs to me, I heard recently that the hookup rates amongst rehab patients is incredibly high. They’re all looking for connection and they find it there. You could be playing with fire putting a bunch of limerents together like that.
Much of the shame around unwanted limerence is often about unfaithfulness, if the limerent is already in a relationship – that’s why I was thinking about a closed community setting. It would be online, so hopefully the risk of hook-ups is reduced!
It is a good point about not reinforcing shame/secrecy, though. Is there a “what happens in rehab stays in rehab” principle, or is that considered counterproductive…?
Unfortunately limerence doesn’t require a physical hookup…
So true!
While in limerence, one’s essentially limerent for his/her IDEA/fantasy of LO — real in person or “ghost” online. S/he “severs” first as a catalyst and then a bystander; one is driven to an addictive ‘EA’ with his/her own head whether it is reciprocated or not by LO.
Hook-ups happens mostly in reality, but can online whether intentionally or unexpectedly, that’s inevitable whether in an open or enclosed community.
DrL:
I think a bootcamp could be very helpful to those less informed/insightful or less will-powered/disciplined limerents, because most of us can’t talk about our LE with anyone in our reality, let alone getting mental and emotional support.
The sense of shame/guilt, especially felt by those who already have SO or whose LO has SO, is caused by the aged cultural script and ideological/religious conditioning, on top of that it’s just about impossible to turn off those intrusive thoughts and unwanted ruminations.
If un-acted thoughts are not crime, then why un-actualized limerence (EA) is immoral? It’s just an astronomical-sized emotion in one’s head, isn’t it? Who can control our “normal” emotions or thoughts — average 70,000 per day?
I think your bootcamp could help a great deal in reducing limerents’ loaded guilty/shameful sense and decrease intensity of limerence symptoms. I’m not optimistic about a total removal/elimination of a limerence, which might occur only when it is transferred to a new “LO”.
Hey Snow
I think the EA is immoral if you’re in a relationship. Even though I wasn’t limerent for LO during my relationship, I did tell him many details about my relationship (which was emotionally abusive and maybe on some level I was hoping LO would offer to rescue me even though I had no intrusive thoughts or lack of productivity at the time). I wouldn’t do that again because I was potentially toying with LO’s feelings (even though he denied having them) and was probably lying to myself as well. But also being on the receiving end of what felt like a very inappropriate level of ‘friendliness’ from a married man, it dragged me into the situation as well. So he may not have ‘crossed a line’, but it certainly felt ‘immoral’, and I could not ignore the churning in my stomach telling me he was doing wrong by both me and his wife. It is never limited to just your head.
Hi Call me Cordelia,
I don’t know whether you have followed my other old posts with other bloggers here, so forgive my repeating and attempt to make myself clear. (Sometimes I can’t clearly explain my complex thoughts.)
In your case, from my cultural perspective (brought up this way), the EA is just a close, substantial friendship, in which you were able to talk/share about what’s truly going on in your life. In my COO, we’d consider such friendship/“EA” very valuable, because what is involved here is realistic human pains/sufferings. A friend’s/LO’s willingness and ability to listen to/validate a fellow human being’s pains, that’s a humanistic kindness and generosity, regardless the listener’s social status or motives.
If one feels relieved even if temporarily from such a friendship/“EA”, one has benefited! In COO’s tradition, one would feel s/he “owes” a penny to this friend/LO. In my mind, I “owe” a million dollars to all of YOU here who has listened to me and spent a great deal of time and efforts in exploring, discussing and debating with me about our individualistic LE case, respectively. Whether intended or not on either side, active thinking and then organizing thoughts/emotions/pains/questions/answers onto the screen here “served” as a therapeutic process in itself, as a positive side effect. Of course, its benefits are up to each individual’s mind, sensitive or sensible, to grasp.
That’s what I’ve been felt with my LO, who did not have to listen to all my cptsd craps in person or online over years, but he did (still not sure of his motives) and I got what 2 therapists could not have provided. So despite all my LE sufferings, I feel grateful and “lucky” to have unexpectedly benefited. That’s what I said to another poster that I do not regret my LE and would not trade it for anything else if I could move time go backward. I’m confident now on how to manage even a Glimmer.
“I wouldn’t do that again because I was potentially toying with LO’s feelings (even though he denied having them) and was probably lying to myself as well”
If truly needing to “relieve” one’s pain to LO or a trustable friend, why would it be considered “TOYING” with their feelings? How did you know their feelings for sure? For me personally, if the other side is trustable enough (not judging or blowing it to public) and truly WILLING (I checked in with my LO repeatedly whether it’s okay to keep my monologues) to lend a compassionate ear, I’d feel more than safe to relieve my stresses (selfish as it sounds!). For me, a person is an independent human being first, marriage or singleton is just a social identification, not a human essence — not one’s body, mind, and soul, which is separated from all one’s tangible and intangible possessions. Marriage/SO is an external possession, unable to be “owned” by one’s own body, mind, and spirit.
“So he may not have ‘crossed a line’, but it certainly felt ‘immoral’, and I could not ignore the churning in my stomach telling me he was doing wrong by both me and his wife.”
In my eyes, Your LO certainly did NOT cross the morality line. From my stubborn point of view, you even “owe” a penny to your LO’s friendship. Your feelings, physical or emotional, come from your cultural conditioning/script. I did not feel your kind of feelings when I “confessed” to my LO or my limerents “dumped” their personal sufferings to me during my marriage. I treat them as a flawed human fellow first, a flesh person who needs my limited “help”. I never toyed with or dally at their feelings, that’s too cruel for my cptsd stomach even swallow.
To me, the marriage license in the West puts a way too much limitations on one’s body, mind, and soul. Just by listening to your pains with a marriage license placed somewhere in his household, Your LO committed “morality sins” to his wife and you? Does this even make a logical sense? Then how do you define a good, substantial, supportive friendship? Only coming from our same gender or sex? Only from singletons? NO wonder I don’t desire a marriage anymore!
“It is never limited to just your head.”
I disagree with you here. If it is not actualized in an actual PA, YES, “it’s JUST in your head”, suffering unnecessary pains on top of LE ones.
I forgot to mention that I might have had pair-bonding motives when I first approached married LO (“safe” for me), but was certainly unconscious about it; PA was out of question! I had/have my oath to keep (after decades).
Meanwhile within 3 years, my Hashimoto thyroiditis was consistently worsening with underline, undetected lymphoma. When the swollen thyroid was finally taken out, it measured 22 X18x4 cm; it’s like a short snake wrapped inside my neck (I looked gross). Two months before the surgery, I could barely breathe; the hospital lifted its bar (only treating covid-patients) for my life-threatening operation earlier than other 5 cancerous ones ahead of me.
Yes, I was in LE in this condition during 11 months of pandemic lockdown. It’s until more than 1.5 years later (2022) when my first jealousy was provoked, I realized that my LE had other hidden feelings/motives, that might be responsible for having subconsciously glimmered at LO.
My Hashimoto Thyroiditis symptoms were spotted by Mom two days after the news of Dad’s brainstem stroke and was detected in ultrasound in COO within a week after Dad’s unexpected, traumatic passing in 9 days. It was not directly related to/caused by LE, into which I had slipped later, although I had that quiet, vague glimmer 8 months prior to the loss. At that time, I only nodded greetings at the “stranger” LO.
Please do not mistaken that my LE had led my devastating thyroiditis or lymphoma; it’s probably other way around, since my willpower was so weakened to the point that I was urged to opened up to LO, who consoled me a lot at work to help me pass through the shocking grief period.
Hi Snow
First let me say how awful your ordeal sounds and I’m sorry you had to go through that. Of course you needed a friend.
I’m fine with being friends with men. That’s not the issue. It’s that I had had very strong romantic feelings for LO. I have had plenty of guy friends I never had romantic feelings for. I wasn’t complaining to them. I complained to LO because I believe part of me wanted him to rescue me.
I was also talking about two different situations. The second is where I was potentially the LO. I felt very used because he was seeking validation from me. i suspect because his marriage was going through a rough patch. He gazed at me in a way that made me very uncomfortable. I’m sure he felt he wasn’t doing anything wrong but I was a client, he was married and I was single. The feeling in my gut wasn’t cultural. It was instinctual. It felt wrong. If I put myself in his wife’s shoes, I wouldn’t have been OK with the way he looked at me. I felt idealized. He kept comparing me to his wife (things he said). But of course he never saw my flaws. So what he ‘saw’ was a fantasy that could potentially destroy his marriage because he didn’t have the courage to turn inwards and be honest with himself about what he was getting from me and why. I could see that and it hurt to be used like that. Especially Because I was alone and he was going home to his wife. Also, we weren’t friends. The situation was professional so I should have been able to trust him. That’s a different scenario from yours.
Hey Cordelia,
“First let me say how awful your ordeal sounds and I’m sorry you had to go through that. Of course you needed a friend.”
Thank you for understanding my literally dying situation. I felt it was a miracle and grateful that my neck and thyroid lymphoma (one of slowest growing kinds) was unknowingly removed before it spread out to my whole body. LO was there from the beginning to the end, giving sporadic encouragement and support. To many other curious coworkers, I did not want to reveal too much of my medical conditions, which no doctor actually truly knew.
“I’m fine with being friends with men. That’s not the issue. It’s that I had had very strong romantic feelings for LO. I have had plenty of guy friends I never had romantic feelings for. I wasn’t complaining to them. I complained to LO because I believe part of me wanted him to rescue me.”
I have had a lot of guy friends and it was usually me who listened to their “ordeals” of their reality (broken marriage/relationship dramas, business failures, even an imprisonment) ; but I never revealed my private/romantic feelings to those non-LO guy friends. I’m very possessive of my own emotions, even to LO.
Like you, once LO was glimmered at, I had this urge to open myself up. Due to the “abusive” parenting from Narc Mom (who actually passive-aggressively influenced Dad), I always subconsciously searched for a parental rescuer, instinctively a man with strong femininity. Therefore, all my LOs unknowingly “served” as a parent after I glimmered at them. Once I realized they were unable to “rescue”, I got disappointed and walked away (my nice SO).
So I totally understand your feelings of wanting to be “rescued” from your relationship troubles. Yeah, we “credited” that fantasied “rescuing” ability to our LOs without even clearly knowing who they were. We were just gravitated to open up to LO, because in our altered mind, we saw them as a shinny knight suddenly landed in front of us…. I literally saw a reddish halo over LO’s head as he walked in the hallways — those damned neurochemicals!
“The second is where I was potentially the LO. I felt very used because he was seeking validation from me. I suspect because his marriage was going through a rough patch. He gazed at me in a way that made me very uncomfortable. I’m sure he felt he wasn’t doing anything wrong but I was a client, he was married and I was single. The feeling in my gut wasn’t cultural. It was instinctual..“
Usually, I like providing support, help, or validation to my friends if I was able to assist them in their needed emotional and mental ways. But they were not loose acquaintances, definitely not guys whose gaze would make me uncomfortable or cringe — oh, I intuitively knew those “greedy gaze” from the core of my soul! Your instinctual feelings are totally valid, I know what it is like since I was 6 or 7… My strong initiation has been guiding me through another’s gaze, both female and male, I could sense a lot, almost never wrong.
Your therapist should not bring his private or family life, good or bad, to your therapy sessions at all. I never asked my female therapists’ private life unless they wanted to reveal it in its relevance to my situations. I was not paid to listen to them, and could not care less.
I had a male therapist who could not put me into hypnosis to relax me (no one could beside myself) and his “caring” gaze made me somewhat uncomfortable. So I ended the therapy after 10 sessions. Then he kept left phone messages on my phone, almost like “begging” me to back to him, so creepy! Ever since, I only look for older female therapists, hoping they’d bring more femininity and understand me better; Nah, that’s not the case either….
“It felt wrong. If I put myself in his wife’s shoes, I wouldn’t have been OK with the way he looked at me. I felt idealized. He kept comparing me to his wife (things he said). But of course he never saw my flaws. So what he ‘saw’ was a fantasy that could potentially destroy his marriage because he didn’t have the courage to turn inwards and be honest with himself about what he was getting from me and why.”
Oh, I hate it when I was compared to other women, cheaply flattered, or idealized like a “priestess” of some sort, as if I cared about those superficial words, like many women do. Some who approached or hit on me were my acquaintances’ or gfs’ boyfriends/fiancés or husbands, you can imagine the sorrow I felt for them! Of course, I never mentioned a word to them.
If I were in your shoes, I probably would not think much about his wife (could not relate to or care), but just cut him off from my therapy that was supposed to help release my stresses or get to know myself. Therapist’s most important task is to be a patient, empathizing, and compassionate ear! His or her private life is their own business, not my concern at all.
My eyes could turn snowy-cold when needed, and most of sensitive and sensible insecure guys would back up.
“I could see that and it hurt to be used like that. Especially Because I was alone and he was going home to his wife.”
Please allow me to boldly give a penny advice here: always EXPECT that there are crappy or weaker people out there ready to USE us or suck our light away in whatever ways they deem possible. All we need to do is to recognize it, smile internally, then pity them and walk away. When we are prepared for meeting the worst, nothing could hurt us internally. We do NOT need to seek validations from anyone else, just from ourselves.
“The situation was professional so I should have been able to trust him. That’s a different scenario from yours.”
I’ve learned to be cautious with anyone while being curious, friendly, and sincere. I’ve learned not to make any assumptions with anyone’s professional or social titles; underneath they’re flawed and venerable in some ways just like ourselves. I’ve learned NOT to expect them, both men and women, to be anyway I’ve wished or dreamt of…. So my disappointment is minimum with a small sigh…
Cordelia, my Favorite Cheerleader, it’s so good to see post you again!! We have another Aussie here now I believe. He goes by Grego. Perhaps you can pass on some of your infinite Limerence Wisdom, if he shows up.
I’m getting ready to post at the bottom. Hope you are well. Talk to you soon.
What exactly does a “closed community setting” mean? Would people see eachother virtually? (If so, for me it would have to be females only.) I am intrigued by this idea, but I’d need more information. 💙
I think to run this as a therapeutic group for people suffering with Limerence, which I imagine would be ground breaking, that ideally you would need to partner with a University Psychology team or other body capable of carefully pre selecting group members and carrying out evaluation and follow up.
People joining would then understand and consent to being involved in a trial for a treatment which may or may not benefit them.
It would be really important to get some kind of evidence based feedback as to whether such groups are effective, neutral or mire people more into to their LE.
If several trials showed it was an effective method for most people, then that would be a major step forward in treatment options for this difficult to overcome condition.
Hi Mike
I’m going to throw a question out to you.
What if it isn’t effective for most people, but it’s highly effective for some people? We frequently want ‘proven effectiveness’ but that’s really a type of cost benefit analysis because whoever is delivering an intervention usually needs it to be economical. I’d argue that a lot of the people who REALLY need help are a subset of the population and you’re better off looking at it qualitatively than quantitatively. The participants are adults capable of constant self-reflection who could recognize of something isn’t working for them. And we shouldn’t forget about the outliers. Those who don’t fit the norm need help too 🥺
I do agree with you on the part about psychological or psychiatric input. Especially for the ethical side of things. That said, limerence isn’t even clearly defined and those professions often know little about limerence or how to tackle it. My own recovery required a hell of a lot of inner work and I was motivated by debilitating night terrors. Motivation is key. Lots of people don’t want to get better. Not genuinely. I think once you’re motivated, you’ll find a way that works for you. Gosh I feel like I’m back on LWL ☺️
Call me Cordelia,
I second your thoughts here!
Each limerent is in limerence in his or her unique ways, there would be no universal treatments that would work for all individual limerents.
“Each limerent is in limerence in his or her unique ways, there would be no universal treatments that would work for all individual limerents.”
This is a highly valid point Snowpheonix and I’ll add a few things from my own experience. I’ve written quiet a few posts on my own limerent experience, story with LO.
I’m a decades long limerent, who only fairly recently found out that Limerence was an actual condition.
I’ve ‘rehashed’ my Limerence story here numerous times. So I’ll try to add a different perspective. Firstly, my LE which happened well over a decade ago was quite traumatic and left me with emotional wounds which I’m still tending to.
unrequited, unresolved LE’s can leave one in a victim state, where LO got ego (Narcissistic) supply and the limerent is left heart-broken, frustrated and suffering. So, part of the recovery which seems to be on-going (no closure) is healing that victim state which is oh so painful.
Also, the shame part can come about by not having ones’ needs met. Perhaps this really does need to be dealt with in a closed setting. But if the limerent is caught in a non-intimate relationship merely co-habituating, then this is where it can be complicated and difficult to navigate.
So, I think, many have their own unique set of challenges and difficulties they need to navigate. Loneliness, substance use, anxiety, shame etc. No intimacy is a problem, if in a relationship where one still craves it and the other doesn’t. Or long-term relationships where someone is no longer physically attracted to their partner.
I see myself as part of the spiritual but not religious subset. This helps me deal with the difficulties and disappointments of life. And gives me a larger perspective on getting caught in my own story. MY suffering becomes THE suffering; Thier are thousands of others, who are similarly disappointed and hurt by romantic hopes gone awry.
I could also try and say something about ‘the male gaze’ and how that brings up a whole lot of difficulties and misunderstandings between men and women. I’ll leave that aside as it really is outside my ‘paygrade’ and others could do it justice much better than me.
It’s taken me a long time and much heartache and soul searching, but at least I know what I’m dealing with now, instead of fumbling around in the dark.
I could never really fathom, why this person, who I knew I knew I didn’t like a whole lot and probably wasn’t going to be good for me at all. Why was there this longing to see them and want to be in their life. It felt like a shameful condition i had, that I was unable to share.
@Crego,
“I’ve ‘rehashed’ my Limerence story here numerous times. So I’ll try to add a different perspective. Firstly, my LE which happened well over a decade ago was quite traumatic and left me with emotional wounds which I’m still tending to.”
I’ll ask some questions based on this “different perspective” you’re speaking of: what exactly was traumatic that has lasted over a decade? (It’s quite long!) Would you describe specifically what your “emotional wounds” are? Do they manifest in your body? How do they exemplify in your life concretely?
“unrequited, unresolved LE’s can leave one in a victim state, where LO got ego (Narcissistic) supply and the limerent is left heart-broken, frustrated and suffering.”
Based on a lot of stories here in LwL, unrequited, unresolved LE can leave one scared even within a short time. A victim state, whether in LE, or cptsd, or other mental issues, might be the biggest barriers for a sufferer to heal. I did not realize this until I began to explore and study Stoicism near 5 years ago.
Whatever LO did or intended to do was/is beyond our control (I dealt with 2 Narc LOs without having ever glimmered at them), but how we react(ed) to their personality and behaviors was/is up to us. I know the pain immediately after I (was) “cut off” from two Narc LOs, and in both cases, it took me about a year to recover. My question for you is: after a decade (I assume your LO is not in your life in any form), what is still frustrating you and why you are still “heart-broken” and “suffering”?
“So, part of the recovery which seems to be on-going (no closure) is healing that victim state which is oh so painful.”
Without getting out a “victim state”, one can NEVER heal from any mental or emotional wounds! Why healing is it so painful? I found it’s so empowering when I was able to switch from a victim state (of cptsd) to a loving, strong, confident “parent” to myself — I no longer need validations from anyone else, what a freedom! 🕊️
“Also, the shame part can come about by not having ones’ needs met. Perhaps this really does need to be dealt with in a closed setting.”
Are you saying that if we have some of our human needs unmet, we need to feel shameful about it? Is this condition caused by ourselves or by uncontrollable external factors? If former, we could search for solutions and make our needs met; if latter why do we need to feel a shame?
“But if the limerent is caught in a non-intimate relationship merely co-habituating, then this is where it can be complicated and difficult to navigate.”
Are you talking about a “dead-Eros” relationship/marriage? If one or two parties are unhappy about it, one or both should seek to make changes even if it’s very “complicated and difficult to navigate”. Describing a situation would not improve it; are you willing to put up with it for the rest of your life? — ⏰ is ticking…
“So, I think, many have their own unique set of challenges and difficulties they need to navigate. Loneliness, substance use, anxiety, shame etc. “
Totally true, whether in LE or some other mental dis-eases. 80% of what is happening in the world is negative… all the above conditions exist in almost all cultures, the West seems to take up a heavier load in some aspects…
“No intimacy is a problem, if in a relationship where one still craves it and the other doesn’t. Or long-term relationships where someone is no longer physically attracted to their partner.”
This condition exists in many relationships and in both West and East, it has become almost a default state of modern life. So what do you want to do about it in your personal life? Go with a flow or make a constructive change somehow?
“I see myself as part of the spiritual but not religious subset. This helps me deal with the difficulties and disappointments of life. And gives me a larger perspective on getting caught in my own story.”
I consider myself spiritual as well, which certainly helps me face disappointments and difficulties with more serenity (I still meditate at least half an hour everyday). However, I see my personal story is valid, my struggles to improve quality of my personal life is important, my mental health not only fundamentally benefits myself but also contributes to my surroundings and those whom I care and love. So I would not judge my “own story” is menial. A whole is made of many tiny parts; if every individual were mentally sounding and healthy, this world would NOT be so messy!
“MY suffering becomes THE suffering; There are thousands of others, who are similarly disappointed and hurt by romantic hopes gone awry.”
Are you saying that because thousands “are similarly disappoint and hurt by romantic hopes”, so it’s okay to be complacent about our own pains and just continue enduring them? By the way, this attitude is not Buddhistic or Stoic, which are not passive, but active betterment of oneself and surroundings.
“I could also try and say something about ‘the male gaze’ and how that brings up a whole lot of difficulties and misunderstandings between men and women. I’ll leave that aside as it really is outside my ‘paygrade’ and others could do it justice much better than me.”
I think one, if keenly self-observant, can say something about his or her own gazes, but not “the male/female gaze” in general. No two people’s gazes are exactly the same, and no gaze would be interpreted or appreciated the same way by two or more receivers — it depends on receivers’ cultural background and personal experiences. If receivers’ feelings are instinctual, then nothing could refute their validity — it’s like whether a dog would bark or wag its tail upon seeing a stranger. (This early evening a medium sized dog in a street insisted to get my petting on her head, which was so heart-warming…)
“It’s taken me a long time and much heartache and soul searching, but at least I know what I’m dealing with now, instead of fumbling around in the dark.”
I’m glad that this community is helping you sort out your sufferings and hopefully heal your wounds soon. It has done wander to me since I found it last July. I think I’ve largely transformed my active, unrequited LE to active unrequited love — more of Philia, Agape, and Philautia without anxiety/expectations and resentment/grudges, when I’m facing the D-day with LO in 20 days! 🧐
“I could never really fathom, why this person, who I knew I knew I didn’t like a whole lot and probably wasn’t going to be good for me at all. Why was there this longing to see them and want to be in their life. “
Never say “never”. I think and believe you can find your answer(s) to your own questions. Dig deeper and make yourself psychologically naked to yourself…. Layer by layer, you’ll find some answers deep inside… you’ll do yourself a huge favor! Remember, in any circumstances, only one can ultimately heal oneself — no one else could think or feel for you or rescue you from a victim’s state!
“It felt like a shameful condition i had, that I was unable to share.”
You lost me here a little bit: what is IT? Your unfathomable mentality to let LO go for a decade? “Unable to share”? — aren’t you sharing it here with all of us? Has such a sharing make you feel less burdened?
Didn’t you say that you were into or attending Zen’s chanting?
I am going to 3rd those thoughts as well. Motivation truly is key. I believe Boot Camp is only going to be most effective for those who really really want out of their LE. I think some on this forum (and I include myself), like to come on and bask in loving LO thoughts, where the banter is mostly kind, helpful and non-judgemental. It’s a question if coming here is to only validate another form of rumination, or are we really taking active working steps to stop the limerence. I admit, I am not..
The boot camp idea therefore would only help if Limerents truly wanted rid of limerence for good, otherwise I feel you would be wasting time with it.
There is this forum and the other limerence forum I go to when I am feeling a need to vent. I also have a few Friends I have talked to about it as well as my Priest. The good thing about my situation is I only hurt myself when it comes to LO matters. I have no Wife or SO to hurt, so in that regard, I am grateful.
However, with my New Lady Friend relationship, I am finding out, (quite suddenly) she is a depressed and anxious avoidant, who has recently just became medicated. We’ve not really discussed anything at length about her issues, but it is clear to see how she does go out of her way to be alone at times. I am trying and finding it hard quite honestly, to be a positive person for her. Because my nature by default, is probably to be more negative. I do feel though, like she is a trustworthy person I could really say anything to, without fear of being judged. So I have considered disclosing some LE matters to her, just because it has truly affected my psyche, and it would be honest.
Hi MJ,
You posted 1 minute before me. 😁
I found this site helpful to as you say ‘vent’ the injustice of it all.
And also the telling of all the karmic drama and gothic aspects of my own limerence experience.
Whether i want to be fully ‘cured’ of my limerency I cannot say. Though I’m not sure it would be fully possible. I see management of the condition more so than cure.
Well, MJ, I have to say the tone of your posts has definitely changed since you first started posting here. You may not want to stop ruminating, but I’d guess that they’re taking up less of your brain space than they were now you have a Lady Friend to think about(??). She may not be what you’re looking for romantically, but do you think she may just be exactly enough distraction to loosen the grip of limerence?
While I’m not at all a negative person, I understand her need to be alone. Does it feel like she is shutting you out? I am careful now to let people know I just need time and space. I literally say straight up that I’ve had my people-time quota for the day and I’ve got nothing left. Maybe it just needs to be communicated in a way that ensures you feel emotional safety?
Glad you feel like you have someone you can talk to and trust. My psychologist always warns about over sharing though. It does sound like she has already confided in you if you know about her anxious avoidance. I’m very curious to know what effect telling her would have on your limerence 🤔
Can you tell I do a lot of things ‘just to see’ what the effect might be? 😅
@MJ
You may already know this, but it does take some time for someone on a new medication to see/feel the effects of it. She may need a few weeks or months to know if it is going to help her with her depression and/or anxiety. I encourage you to let her have some space while she sorts that out. When I started the Paxil, I felt very groggy for a few weeks, but once it started to kick in, it really helped my ups and downs — made me feel and think clearer than ever before.
Hopefully, whatever she is trying will help her in what she needs, too. I suppose what I am trying to say is maybe not give up on her during this “trial”?
@Cordelia, Limerent Nurse, Grego,
Thank you for your kind responses. I think I am less on edge these days because Lady Friend, has helped shift the tide in my brain somewhat. What I like about her is that she is very kind, receptive and yet very easy to read when I know she needs her space. I’ve really only brought it up once to her and she basically said the same thing. About being done and having enough to do with people at the moment. That it was nothing personal. I appreciated the honesty. So she doesn’t really make me feel left out. I told her I am there to listen when she needs me. Truly she is a sweet girl at heart.
What else I am enjoying in this effort, is that I don’t feel any limerence at all over her. If anything, just light degrees of missing her and wondering what she’s up to. There is no anxious fallout on my end and no crying spell when she’s not around or out of reach. She has many other guy friends at work, much closer to her in age and I feel really no jealousy towards them. Other than maybe wishing I could come around just a little more often than not. Other than that, I feel like it’s just a crush. Like what a normal crush should feel like. Not so overwhelming to the point I will cry over everything that isn’t happening.
I am all for giving her the space she needs when she needs it. She’s taking a 10mg dose of Lexapro, which was the pill I used to take years ago but eventually got off. She’s been on it for a few weeks now, and has said it’s taken the physical edge of anxiety off. She just wishes she would have started it sooner. I’m happy because I do actually see her smiling a little more and it warms my heart when it’s aimed at me.
I feel like she has recently come off a bad relationship that she doesn’t like talking about ever. Which explains some of the anxiety and inability to disengage at times. I can’t call it though. She just refers to it as “stuff” and I try to tell her I have “stuff” too. (Referring to LO) I’m not really sure how to talk about it because it is odd how my situation became and I don’t want her to think I’m capable of being that way, because she might suspect I’m feeling that way towards her. I’ve made my share of cheesy pick-up lines on her already and usually she just blows them off. Probably thinking I’m only kidding. If anything though, I think I’m enjoying keeping things light. The absolute last thing she would need right now is my middle age crisis s#!+, upending her issues.
I’m not sure if venting my LE to her would really do anything to my psyche over LO. I find myself missing her at times to the point, I will still cry. Just last night I went shopping and one of her playlist songs came on over the speakers. I must’ve looked like an idiot trying to sing as a pushed my shopping cart but I was afraid if I didn’t do that, I would just start bawling right there in the soup aisle.
This is that weird comforting sorrow I feel for LO all the time. Always happens. Still driving by her building at work everyday and I usually get a lump in my throat.
Maybe upon disclosing my LE tendencies to Lady Friend will help make that not feel so heavy, but I’m not really losing sleep if it doesn’t happen. I’ve not really ever been keen to the idea of dropping it, and thats probably because I feel like LO is my sweet refuge. When Lady Friend disengages, LO is back on top in my head again. Like a security blanket. I cringe at the idea of going out to make time to cry and write poetry for her some more, yet I am strangely drawn to wanting to do so. The madness never ends. Am I sick that I still don’t want it to?
MJ,
Are you dating this other co-worker? If you are, I’d recommend keeping your LE to yourself. I can’t imagine that going well. Telling a co-worker you are dating that you have strong feelings for another co-worker.
@Marcia,
No we are not dating. Tbh, I don’t even know if I see it on the radar, but I’d like to think it’s not out of question to desire it.
Hi Cordelia, thanks for throwing out the question, which is a good one. If there were people who found the group highly effective, but they were a minority, that might provide an understanding of who was most likely to benefit from group settings. If they had some shared reasons or traits for doing so. As some say here, everyone is different, but if a screening tool is validated to establish a person as experiencing Limerence, then that is the commonality that is being ethically explored to see if group work is effective and who is most likely to benefit. I do agree there are so many variables, including the question…. can an LE be undone in full flow or does the process have to play out until the LO is no longer one. Either because they are now a happy couple or more likely because an unshakeable reality has undermined their desirability to a point of extinction of the LE. If the latter is true then the LWL site is the best resource for Limerence because of the vast knowledge and self management tools to be found here
I think that there is also another variable, the degree of limerence being experienced. I have not seen this discussed; perhaps it’s just a given. You could even construct a scale according to the effects.
This might help to explain why some people appear to be more resilient to limerence and are seemingly unsure about whether or not they really want it to stop.
I think I have experienced milder limerent episodes before but I regarded them as “silly crushes”. There was never any tangible encouragement or reciprocation so maybe that made a difference.
This time I have been in it up to my neck and I think that a timescale running into several years can make an LE much harder to shift.
@frederico.
“This might help to explain why some people appear to be more resilient to limerence and are seemingly unsure about whether or not they really want it to stop.”
When I was still in touch with LO and he was still responding favourably to me i.e. when I was “still in with a chance of winning his affection”, I didn’t want limerence to stop. I found it stressful absolutely, but I kind of enjoyed it at the same time. All I could think about was that next hit of adrenalin, that next hit of dopamine. 😲
When my LO ghosted me, and I was no longer able to contact him because he wouldn’t take my calls, that is the only time I wanted limerence to stop. I was left wanting something that I could never have – and that, my friend, is a terrible situation to find oneself in. So unbelievably painful, humiliating. All stress, no pleasure. 🤔
When you’ve “lost the game”, but can’t admit to yourself that you’ve “lost the game” (probably to a superior competitor you knew about all along), that is when the chaos in one’s brain starts to take on a nightmare quality that one never bargained for in the first place. 🙂
Hi Mike
Yes I agree with the narrowing down of participants to those with limerence being a way of ensuring your sample population is appropriate. What I suppose I’m trying to say is possibly better explained by how the Gottman’s observed couples in order to determine what contributes to successful relationships. Maybe it comes down to the difference between inductive and deductive analysis. Are we doing it to generate a theory or are we testing a theory?
In the Gottman’s case they observed a large number of couples on video and broke down their interactions (including facial expressions) into fractions of a second. I really a definition of limerence is in this blog (and could potentially provide multiple or more effective options for how to overcome it) but it needs to be coded to figure out how exactly. I think that because I had the answer to my night terrors amongst hundreds of pages of messages between me and LO. I needed to code the themes of what I was saying and how I was feeling at the times that coincided with night terror episodes. Only took me nearly 20 years but it also took that long to gather enough data to observe the patterns.
I know that Tennov did something similar, but as has been pointed out, it was a different era. I also don’t remember if Tennov interviewed lots of people to determine which were limerent and which weren’t or if she attempted to limit her survey to limerents only. I think the only way to really unravel limerence and get to the nitty gritty is to analyze as much uncensored information as possible (which could be a by-product of a boot camp if everyone felt safe enough to divulge). That’s where your numbers could come in… rather than effectiveness of an intervention given to limerents with an endless number of variables (including degree of motivation which could mean the same intervention could fail one time and work another for the same participant) you could look for associations between things like self-reported degree of motivation and success of intervention. Just my ten paragraphs of two cents worth 😅
“When you’ve “lost the game”, but can’t admit to yourself that you’ve “lost the game” (probably to a superior competitor you knew about all along), that is when the chaos in one’s brain starts to take on a nightmare quality that one never bargained for in the first place. 🙂”
@Sammy, Frederico,
I think thats been the whole extent of my LE.
I knew right out the gate, LO was way the f$#! out of my league, but she was a challenge. So that was another element to her allure. I think the real “chaos” in my brain started when she went cold on me so quick. I hate thinking she used me just to stroke her ego, but she may just be that way now and justifies it because she is super attractive.
MJ,
„ I hate thinking she used me just to stroke her ego, but she may just be that way now and justifies it because she is super attractive.“
Well, if she really used you to stroke her ego, then she loses a lot of her super- attraction, don’t you think? People like that might be good- looking, but no real attractiveness if they behave ugly.
@Mila,
That’s very true. If I really felt like that though, her charm would disappear and then in its weird way, would feel like a breakup.
LO always gets a pass in my book. With everything. Even when she gave me a go to hell look, I kept coming around.. I’m the fool that doesn’t get it and don’t want to get it. Sowing the seeds of my own demise. Like a glutton for punishment. Yet it’s her Academy Award winning beauty that keeps me coming back for more. Crazy. 😣
Hi Snow,
Thanks, but Wednesday is not that big actually. Or is it? I might be in denial, but I really haven’t got much time to think about it at the moment, and I successfully avoid thinking of him most of the time.
It could be the last meeting before he decides to leave or stay, but I refuse to take on any responsibility for his decision, i.e. trying to convince him to stay.
Thanks for your good wishes anyway!
Dr L
I’m going to throw my thoughts out around shame. I see a lot of ‘don’t disclose’ advice here and it doesn’t sit well with me. I feel like there absolutely are circumstances where you don’t disclose, or you’re careful who you disclose to, but ultimately what worries me is this may be counterproductive long term. In my opinion the motive behind keeping everything so hush hush stems from an addiction to shame. Addiction frequently being attributed to those feelings of shame resulting in a shame /addiction spiral.
I was frequently shamed and felt ashamed at school and at home. I think most of us in my generation were. I’ve spent a fair bit of my adult life learning to extend the natural empathy I have for others to myself.
Not long after I met LO I got drunk and extremely bold one night. I still burn red when I think about it. He told me it was no big deal and for years he even teased me about it which I think compounded my shame. when i apologized again many years later, he pretty much brushed it off. I apologized in an effort to work through my shame. It didn’t work. I think because it wasn’t so much the shame of what I did. It was the intense vulnerability I then had (that he made fun of 😔) Pretty sure Brené Brown has said a lot of things along the lines of shame does not exist within empathy and when shame is spoken, it loses its power. Obviously it must be spoken to someone who is empathetic!
I wonder if in a group setting you have a participant who judges themselves and others harshly, you could undermine the dynamics of the whole group. Like someone (maybe SJ?) said below, they aren’t allowed to give their thoughts in group sessions. I think sometimes we want to receive feedback, but it must be empathetic. Honest, but kind.
So while I would be careful about disclosing, I would ask myself the question – am I just reinforcing my shame/addiction spiral or am I genuinely concerned about the others in the scenario? I feel that when we judge ourselves harshly and we are addicted to shame, we will be advising others to also keep that shame hidden. But then we are giving all our power to shame. Who is going to judge you as harshly as you already judge yourself?
Call me Cordelia’s,
Well said, I cannot agree with your points more or better!
I have something to say about its shaming culture in both East and West… but I’m too sad today to ramble…
@Call me Cordelia.
I’d like to add some reflections on shame to yours, but not shame in the context of bootcamp, more shame regarding limerence in general, and what biological purpose shame may serve in limerence.
I think when I was deep in limerence I felt an enormous level of shame regarding sexuality. But I think that’s because my libido was elevated and I had a great deal of interest in sexuality. Now that my limerence is at a low ebb, I feel low shame regarding sexuality. But I also have low libido at present and lessened interest in the topic of sexuality overall. So I wonder … does limerence produce shame?
In other words, I think people assume shame or sex-negative cultural conditioning produces limerence, but I believe it works the other way round. I think infatuation generates shame feelings, and it’s kind of about the limerent not wanting to “jinx” the situation until it blossoms into a relationship (under ideal circumstances, of course). Shame can deter would-be partners from making mistakes during courtship. (Mistakes that would be unappealing to their paramour).
Dorothy Tennov observed that too early a disclosure can lead to dissipation of limerent feelings. And yet, that sounds counterintuitive. Wouldn’t most limerents assume that any disclosure is good disclosure, and will advance the relationship? But no – disclose too soon, even to an interested party, and the attraction withers. It’s almost as if you can’t eat the limerent fruit if you pick it too soon. (It’s not ripe, and it will rot without ever ripening).
I felt very judged during the height of my limerence. But such judgement primarily came from two sources. The first source was me. (I couldn’t make head or tail of my feelings). The second source was my circle of platonic friends who couldn’t quite grasp what limerence was as a concept, and sort of implied there was something wrong with me for being upset over nothing. (Nothing they’d bother getting upset about, anyway).
I think always disclosing romantic feelings sounds like a very adult way to live life. But limerence is a game that has its own rules quite apart from the rules of polite society. Even single limerents in mutual infatuation with each other can lose the game of love by either (a) disclosing too soon or (b) by disclosing too late.
The problem with disclosing limerence to third parties e.g. friends who may gossip, is that this disclosure to third parties may throw off the limerent’s sense of appropriate timing even more. So, to me, shame functions like a “brake petal” that can actually preserve the budding bond as much as it can sabotage the budding bond. 🤔🙂
“ So I wonder … does limerence produce shame?”
Sammy,
Based on your theory that the pair-bonding drive comes from cave men whose instinct to reproduction is like those of other mammals, who do not feel shame about open mating, then human being, just an advanced mammal, should not feel shame while intensely chasing (in limerence), a mating partner. Then why would limerence produce shame? At what point, limerence changed from being natural to shameful?
“In other words, I think people assume shame or sex-negative cultural conditioning produces limerence, but I believe it works the other way round.”
From my experience and some of others I observed, I know that “sex-native cultural conditioning” has produced gigantic shame on people’s consciousness. The stronger one’s libido is, the more shameful s/he would feel. However, I do not know whether this shame would lead one to limerence. I slipped into my LE during my grief period over Dad’s passing — everything looked gray, blue and meaningless, it’s hard to imagine that my repressed libido drove me into it.
“I think infatuation generates shame feelings, “
Again, why does infatuation generate shame feelings? Being amorously attracted to another is supposed to be natural or loving, why do people feel embarrassed about it all over the world? Isn’t due to cultural conditioning?
@Snowphoenix.
I think limerence produces shame because human beings have evolved, in my opinion, to hide their still-developing romantic attractions. It’s the feelings associated with attraction that people are trying to hide, not the dull facts of sex or reproduction per se.
Religious mythology, such as the story of Adam and Eve in the Christian/Jewish Bibles, doesn’t induce shame feelings in the young, in my opinion, but rather, reflects the shame human beings are already genetically predisposed to feel.
I’m arguing that biology shapes religion and other conservative cultural norms. Limerent persons often make the mistake of thinking all their shame comes from cultural factors. I.e. change the culture and get rid of the shame. This “culture is to blame” view is naive, in my opinion. In reality, shame is an intrinsic part of our human DNA. Religion can only help us manage (or badly mismanage) pre-existing shame.
Of course, there is a difference between healthy shame and unhealthy shame. And a difference between too much shame and too little shame and just the right amount of shame. Healthy shame lets us know when we’re done something that hurt another person.
There are all sorts of biological reasons shame might be a natural part of pair-bonding. For example, a fellow might see an attractive woman, and want to pursue that attractive woman. However, he doesn’t want his mates to pursue the same woman, so he plays down his own interest in said woman until he can make a firm offer.
Alternatively, people might hide romantic attraction out of fear other humans in the group won’t approve of those attractions. I don’t know if that’s always cultural. I think there may be perfectly sound biological reasons to seek the approval/support of other humans in one’s social group – especially humans with resources.
Lastly, I think shame is a natural part of limerence because limerence is a game. Even when heterosexual men and women are married to each other, a lot of them continue to play strange mind games with their own spouses! It seems to me that “shame” is the very ingredient that keeps the mating dance going. It would be nice if people could just be honest and straight-up with each other, but too much candour seems to mute the passion/intrigue people find sexy.
At the end of the day, we might have to accept that there’s really no 100% ethical way to conduct a romantic relationship if what one actually wants in a relationship is a certain level of “frisson”. “Frisson” requires game-playing and shame and not being upfront.
“I slipped into my LE during my grief period over Dad’s passing — everything looked gray, blue and meaningless, it’s hard to imagine that my repressed libido drove me into it.”
This is super-duper interesting. Is limerence = when sexuality meets emotion? I don’t care for sexuality by itself. I don’t care for emotion by itself. But sexuality + emotion = limerence = poetry.
“Again, why does infatuation generate shame feelings? Being amorously attracted to another is supposed to be natural or loving, why do people feel embarrassed about it all over the world? Isn’t due to cultural conditioning?”
I am merely reporting on my own direct experience. When I was limerent, I felt colossal shame. Why? I don’t know. When my limerence faded significantly, I stopped feeling a great deal of shame. Why? I don’t know. This is why I’m suggesting that shame might be an intrinsic part of limerence.
Let’s put it another way: I’m proposing the emotion of shame might be a side-effect of brain chemicals (in my case, anyway) and not the product of shameful behaviour. In limerence, the emotion of shame doesn’t always correlate to any real-life shameful behaviour. A limerent may have done nothing shameful, and still struggle with shame, and on top of that live in a very liberal society with few taboos.
Culture can explain a human response that happens all over the world, but biology too can explain a human response that happens all over the world.
I think shame is a sign people have “skin in the limerent game”. If you’ve got no skin in the game, very likely you won’t feel shame. You won’t even feel shame over the things your society deems shameful. Shame is a sign one has some deep investment in a particular goal.
@Sammy,
You’ve got a lot of interesting theories here!
“I think limerence produces shame because human beings have evolved, in my opinion, to hide their still-developing romantic attractions. It’s the feelings associated with attraction that people are trying to hide, not the dull facts of sex or reproduction per se.”
It’s so sad that “human beings have Evolved” to feel shameful about their romantic attractions, worse than trying just to hide raw sex or reproduction. I don’t have data but a sense that in the East, the latter is considered more shameful in the society.
“the shame human beings are already genetically predisposed to feel.””
In reality, shame is an intrinsic part of our human DNA.”
It’s hard to believe that such a shame is “genetically predisposed to feel”. If true, it’s sadder.
“There are all sorts of biological reasons shame might be a natural part of pair-bonding. “
If it is true, then it would be a mark to distinguish us from chimps.
“Alternatively, people might hide romantic attraction out of fear other humans in the group won’t approve of those attractions. “
Yeah. Social group impose a lot of stuff on individual’s feelings and freedom (never totally free, of course). I am not all convinced it’s biological. Since I migrated, I have been feeling less shameful or freer in certain matters and more restricted or less freer in other matters. And my town is certainly more liberal than most of places in the world, therefore causing less fears in general. Most of times I found my hidden “shame” was derived from my COO, but “EA”/limerence is exception.
“Lastly, I think shame is a natural part of limerence because limerence is a game.”
The concept of “game” implies one has a certain control and ability to play. Most of limerence has barriers or is unreciproacated, and it’s an addiction that in its throes dominates limerent. I can’t see how such a game can be played single handedly.
“At the end of the day, we might have to accept that there’s really no 100% ethical way to conduct a romantic relationship if what one actually wants in a relationship is a certain level of “frisson”. “Frisson” requires game-playing and shame and not being upfront.”
Yes, when it’s 100% ethical or has no barriers in a romantic relationship, the attraction dies very quickly. But the word “frisson” sounds over stimulating to my Eastern skin, which was culturally shaped too thin.
“Is limerence = when sexuality meets emotion? I don’t care for sexuality by itself. I don’t care for emotion by itself. But sexuality + emotion = limerence = poetry.”
Every romantic I’ve encountered happened with emotion first and heavier, sexuality was always underneath and lighter, sometime felt while other times repressed to “nonexistent”. I agree with you that an authentic Limerence= Emotion + Sexuality = Poetry.
“I am merely reporting on my own direct experience. When I was limerent, I felt colossal shame….This is why I’m suggesting that shame might be an intrinsic part of limerence.”
When I was in limerence (short or long), I was “forced” to feel shame, due to its barriers or LO’s rejection. Inside me, I neither felt intrinsically shameful nor grandiose, although its high was so powerful, exhilarating that I often forget the existence of the world or even LO himself (just looked at my dream — did not even notice LO had 6 fingers on each hand!). I was just an independent bundle of joy dancing on my own tiptoes in the cosmos!
“Let’s put it another way: I’m proposing the emotion of shame might be a side-effect of brain chemicals (in my case, anyway) and not the product of shameful behaviour. “
If universally true, that would bring a great release from the sense of shame.
“A limerent may have done nothing shameful, and still struggle with shame, and on top of that live in a very liberal society with few taboos.”
Yeah, this scenario is very troublesome; the shame could curb down so much joy and beautiful imagination/reverie of limerence (mine never affected my daily logistical, logical functions).
“Culture can explain a human response that happens all over the world, but biology too can explain a human response that happens all over the world.”
Absolutely. Biology is more powerful in impacting human being’s mentality and behaviors. But how to prove shame is a part of biological phenomenon or of DNA?
@Snowphoenix.
Ooh, you actually responded to my post! For a moment, I was worried that my casual brilliance had rendered you permanently speechless, and incapable of composing a reply… 😆
You know what, Snow? Maybe you’re right in suggesting shame is primarily rooted in culture and maybe I’m right in suggesting shame is primarily rooted in biology.
When I combined our insights, this is what I get:
Limerence increased my SENSITIVITY to culturally-induced feelings of shame. When limerence is at a low ebb, for me personally, I find myself markedly LESS SENSITIVE to culturally-induced feelings of shame. So biology heavily influences my sensitivity to shame. 😉
@Sammny,
Hm, you’ve forgot one of my narcissistic traits — speak the last word in any round-table discussions 😊
For me, if intending to reduce or getting rid of any emotions, I’ll just ramble about it here in LwL; the more I shake or hammer on it, the less it stays inside me…
Now, my culturally-induced shame relating to limerence has been reduced further (had less than many Westerners to begin with) to the point — I’m going to disclose to LO tomorrow and check how many fingers he actually has… 😂😂
Thanks, Bro!
CmC
For me, and perhaps others, part of the shame of being limerent comes from trying to confide in friends when they clearly do not understand why you cannot just snap out of it.
“You’ve STILL got a crush on (LO)? Really?” It becomes embarrassing.
Also, in my case, there were LO’s feelings to consider and, particularly, those of his SO. Limerents seem to consider the impact of their limerence, and the possible risks to everyone involved, to varying degrees.
As for disclosure, if there are no barriers, why not disclose to LO? If the limerent is in a relationship, then disclosure to his or her SO must be worth considering in the spirit of tackling the problem together?
@Snowphoenix.
“Hm, you’ve forgot one of my narcissistic traits — speak the last word in any round-table discussions 😊”
Does this mean I have to be silent from now so you can … cough, cough … have the pleasure of having had the last word? 😁
And who said the table was round? What are you high on, woman? Dopamine? 🙂
You’re admitting to having narcissistic traits? And MORETHAN ONE narcissistic trait? 😲 My, my, darling, we’re being awfully modest today, aren’t we? Or awfully magnanimous I should say. “Magnanimous” is a nice pointlessly long word that should send High Priestess Mila scrambling for the dictionary at any rate… 😉
You’re disclosing to your LO tomorrow? Well, to quote a most charming Frenchwoman that neither of us know: “No comment!” I’m narcissistic enough to believe you’re only threatening to disclose in order to provoke me into more brilliant discussions so you can pick my brilliant brain to garnish your … cough, cough … purple proses. Or did we agree it was … cough, cough … burgundy proses? I see you’re still soliciting advices from all your advices-givers. 😜
“Thanks, Bro!”
It’s not “Bro”, sweetie pie. It’s “Mr Bro” – “Mr Bro Sir”, to be precise.
Or haven’t you been keeping up with the comments? 😇
I suppose our friendly exchanges today mean that we are friends again? Friends of a sort, anyway. But, shush, don’t tell anyone. As far as I’m concerned, the most peculiar people hang out in the LwL coffeehouse, and I like to pretend that I’m not one of you. If anyone asks, I’m your thirty-seventh cousin visiting from America. 😉
Just skimming posts in a hurry- if somebody wrote to me and it isn’t on the homepage-timeline anymore, I do apologize!
Just saw my name in Sammy’s post- I actually knew „magnanimous“😎!
just not sure about pronunciation.
Snow will disclose? Gosh!
Good luck!
I‘ll meet LO on Wednesday, but limerence is very toned down at the moment, I‘m quite busy and don’t think much of it.
I do wonder how LiS‘s conversation with his LO has played out!
Mila,
Relax please… I’m allowed to joke and tease, especially a dragon’s tail, right?
That’s also an indirect way to compliment Mr. Bro Sir’s ability in help reduce the sense of shame…
Disclose to a LO with 12-14 long fingers? 😨
Snow,
As I said, I haven’t kept up with posts, so I have no idea if you joke or not… Also no idea what you speak about with the fingers (no need to explain, I guess it’s another joke).
I shouldn’t answer to posts if I haven’t read the whole thread of posts, sorry!
Mila,
No worries! LO’s 14 fingers are from my dream 💭 , posted on “dream” blog… other stuff was derived from a dual “show” with Mr. Bro Sir last night on LwL’s stage… 😄
I know Wednesday is big for you… try to take some mental rest, e.g. jugging or brisk walks beforehand…. Nothing can go too bad since you two were friends already before your mutual LE.
Hi Mila, I have a lot to share after our conversations last week, but not enough time to write at the moment. I’ll do a new post at the bottom of this coffeehouse probably tomorrow or Wednesday. Hope you’re well!
Hi Snow,
I replied to you in the wrong place, don’t know where actually 😂sorry!
LiS,
you really know how to keep up the tension😂
Looking forward to news, but no stress, you don’t have to report to us if you don’t feel like it.
@Mila.
“Just saw my name in Sammy’s post- I actually knew „magnanimous“😎!
just not sure about pronunciation.”
You already know “magnanimous”? You must be a genius! Don’t worry – I’m not sure of the pronunciation either! 😜
@Snowphoenix.
It’s time to clear the air…
I finally got around to reading your post in the de Beauvoir section, and while I was happy with most of it, I was extremely unhappy to learn about the way you and Nisor had cruelly misrepresented my character, falsely accusing me of “throwing stones” at you.
This is a disgusting insinuation on the part of you and Nisor, and indicates that you don’t understand the difference between male patterns of communication (extremely vigorous and frank, but always friendly) and female patterns of communication (friendly & nurturing, but also curiously disingenuous and passive-aggressive).
I don’t believe I’ve ever “thrown stones” at you. In fact, I categorically reject the claims I’ve thrown stones at you. Nor have I ever had an autistic meltdown in your presence. I actually have superb control over my emotions. All my engagement with you has been courteous but honest. It seems that my honesty offends you. It seems to me you throw tantrums when people disagree with you.
Throwing a tantrum when someone disagrees with you may work like a charm on heterosexual men. It might even work on heterosexual women. But this form of emotional blackmail doesn’t work on gay men, or women who actually possess good character.
Let me explain to you what makes a gay man gay. A gay man has a very rich emotional range – this rich emotional range is what he shares in common with women. A gay man has an extraordinary ability to compartmentalise his emotions, and not let his emotions spill over into other areas of his life – this ability to compartmentalise is what a gay man has in common with men. The reason gay men make great artists is we don’t take out our intense emotions on other people – we take our intense emotions and shove them in a poem! Now do we understand each other, Snowphoenix? I’m not interested in throwing stones at you – petty social games interest me not at all. I’m interested in art-making.
Here’s the deal: if you want to be treated with kid gloves, then say you want to be treated with kid gloves. If you want an adult interaction with me, where we’re both allow to be ourselves, say you want an adult interaction with me. And don’t change the rules of engagement mid-interaction, because that’s unfair.
Women are sentimentalists. The vile accusation you and Nisor made just proves this to me. Women like things sugar-coated. I can sugar-coat everything for you. Happy to do so. But if you ask me to sugar-coat everything for you, I will secretly lose all respect for you. You’ll get the “babying” you demand, yes. But people who require babying, irrespective of sex, do not command the respect of peers.
You’ve always presented yourself as this bold warrior-queen type of person – that is your persona on LwL. Thus, people are very likely to assume that you are comfortable with comments that are blunt, direct, honest, straightforward, frank, etc, etc. (Aas long as those comments are also respectful, and my comments to you have always been respectful to a fault. Even my jokes are highly respectful).
You can’t say you’re comfortable with masculine style of communication, and then complain of “stone-throwing” when someone communicates with you in a masculine way. Basically, you’re giving mixed messages. In one breath, you say: “I want to you to give it to me straight. I can handle it.” In the next breath, you say: “I want endless chivalry, sympathy, white lies, and special treatment because I’m a woman and I have all these issues from childhood.”
I have zero patience with mixed messages, honey. I’m not a heterosexual men, and I don’t play boring mind-games with women. (There’s no sexual tension at the end of the day to make such games worth my while). If you’re truly my friend, our friendship must be built on honesty and not flattery or special treatment for one party. I talk to you frankly as a mark of respect for your intellect. You’ve always led with your intellect. I’m merely following your cues.
Men and women are different. Jordan Peterson identifies three major differences between men and women that exist even in the most equal societies (Scandinavia). These differences are as follows:
(1) Women consistently score higher on agreeableness than men. (This may be linked to women’s maternal function).
(2) Women consistently feel and display more negative emotionality than men. (Women are more prone to anxiety/depression, etc).
(3) Women consistently show more interest in people than things. Men consistently show more interest in things than people.
The reason I find you irritating, Snow, is you don’t seem to listen to other posters. Even worse, you don’t seem interested in listening to other posters. One of the “comments section” I was referring to was the comments section re: “Dealing with limerence in marriage”.
I’ve always had a problem with you not showing empathy for the SOs of LOs e.g. by bragging about wanting to have a physical affair with your LO. What about the feelings of his wife? Do you not care about women’s feelings? Your blatant lack of empathy for the feelings of other women is troubling to me, and I think it’s an area you could work on. A woman can desire a married man, and still care about his wife’s aspirations and feelings. Romantic desire for one sex doesn’t preclude care/compassion for the other sex surely?
Do you want to know another core difference I’ve noticed between men and women? When a man is upset with another man, he doesn’t usually engage in “reputational damage” of said man. When a woman is upset with another woman, however, she’ll hop on social media and badmouth the other woman to all her friends, seek to exclude said woman from the entire social group. This behaviour that some straight women engage in is exceptionally cruel. One way I feel women could really learn from men how to be “better people” is: don’t seek to destroy the reputations of people who simply don’t agree with you, or have said something bruising to one’s ego.
I’m a man, Snow. I’m also a gay man – an atypical gay man, but a gay man nonetheless. The fact that I’m a man and a gay man and an atypical gay man is why I can be friends with you, despite disagreeing with you on many things. I have no interest in conducting a smear campaign against you, or damaging your reputation. I have no interest in recruiting “flying monkeys” (such as you did with Nisor) to go and inform you you’re a bad person, etc. This is behaviour of the most juvenile sort, and yet women who engage in such behaviour have the temerity to wonder why men (and other women) don’t respect the woman who is “acting out”.
Since we’re talking about shame, Snow, how about you stop seeking to shame people, i.e. Mr Sammy Bro Sir, who legitimately hold views different from your own? And playful insults – that’s how men bond with other men. It’s a form of homosocial flirting, and its purpose is to strengthen group solidarity, not weaken group solidarity. If someone’s teasing you, you know you’ve hit the big time, baby.
Here’s an playful insult to prove I have no hard feelings for you. If you were a student enrolled in a Christian school, they wouldn’t give the prize for “Academic Excellence”. Nor would they give you the prize for “Christian Character”. However, at the end of the year, you’ll very likely take out the award for “Most Improved Student”. 😁
In other words, as something of a mentor, I’m pleased with your progress on LwL. Specifically, I’m pleased with how you’re fitting in with the group better, and showing interest in other people’s lives. I see you trying to give people good advice, and it’s very endearing.
Remember: when an (emotionally healthy) man corrects you, it doesn’t mean he hates your guts. It doesn’t mean he’s competing with you. It doesn’t mean he wants you to fail. It means he actually likes you and wants you to do well. 😉
Mila – I definitely do want to share! I’ve just been so busy I haven’t had more than a moment to write more than a few lines, and I have so much to say! Just to add to the tension, I’m gonna give the bare bones version right now and then I’ll give the long version later this week…
-we spoke twice last week.
-everything was revealed, I no longer have any doubts or questions or confusion whatsoever about her thoughts or feelings or behaviors and everything makes complete sense.
-we agreed to amicably separate and cease any texting or talking on the phone for good.
– I feel alright.
How’s that for keeping the suspense up? 🤣
Later,
LiS
“Sammy says
FEBRUARY 16, 2024 AT 7:49 AM
@Snowphoenix.
“I’ve reduced my depression and gained back some confidence or aliveness by waving a Joan of Arc sword in front of you… 🤺. If you intend to help me, you’ll have to indulge my combative masculinity.”
Snow, I have no interest in helping you. You’re here to help yourself – end of discussion. And if you don’t want to help yourself, that’s fine too. You can’t outsource your responsibilities onto other people.
Also, I’m not going to engage you in any form of combat. The reason for the lack of combat is I actually like you as a person and have made the unilateral decision to treat you as a friend.
I don’t joust with friends, sorry. If you don’t agree with your newfound friend status, too bad, so sad. You have been officially placed in the “friend box”. Now you’re just going to have to endure the indignity of me being nonchalantly sweet toward you… 🙂
The bottom line, Snow, is that I’m happy to have pleasant exchanges with you occasionally, but I have no real ongoing interest in your life, which is strictly your own business and your own responsibility.
“So you envied all women in LwL?”
No, dear. Just the ones who write Godawful purple prose. (I shall be naming no names. Those guilty of writing Godawful purple prose know exactly who they are. Oh wait … I think I’m talking about myself. I read back my own comments sometimes, and think: ‘Gosh, that’s such a wise and witty and beautiful commentary. I’d love to meet the author at a garden party hosted in said author’s honour…’). 🙄😆🤣
I actually went through high school in an extension English class that consisted of around 25 girls and 4-5 boys. I never wanted to read the boys’ work – it was always too boring. Most the girls wrote interesting short stories, however, full of flowery descriptions. I enjoyed reading the short stories the girls wrote. The girls seemed to be living more intensely in their imaginations than the boys. (Perhaps a horrible indictment of a patriarchal society? Perhaps a sign extension English classes mainly attract female introverts?) 😉
“I’ve “fought” with my own father during my entire youth to assert and validate my own identity, and proud he always said the last word and beaten down my self-confidence and self-esteem …”
Snow – seriously – your father issues are disturbing and holding you back from true emotional maturity and genuine relational stability. There is never anything mature about fighting for the sake of fighting, although I know can be fun for some personality types. (Nobody I personally know, thank goodness!) 😇
Sometimes you act like a little girl shouting to be heard. I find your tendency to shout distasteful in the extreme. An adult woman doesn’t shout to be heard. An adult woman speaks in a kind, clear, firm, assertive manner and ASSUMES the whole room will hear her and her views.
Furthermore, an adult woman is comfortable with people having views that differ from her own. Sincere “differences of opinion” do not make an adult woman question the legitimacy of her own views. Grown-ups can legitimately hold conflicting views on the same subject, without either party being wrong or being made to feel wrong. (In discussions of feelings, there is no right/wrong). 😉
I think healthy father-daughter relationships are friendly and courteous in nature rather than combative. Combativeness as a style only alienates listeners, even if the combative person is 100% in the right. If you want to communicate an important message, you have to learn to charm people, and be less defensive overall. 😉
Snow, the people here aren’t trying to shame you or disrespect you or patronise you. The people here also aren’t interested in babysitting you. The people here are mostly disinterested adult observers with lives & problems of their own. And if they respond to you at all, that’s a mark of favour, a sign of incredible kindness.
Do not repay kindness with ingratitude or angry rants or (deeply repulsive but also hilarious) “adult temper tantrums” because … oh my gosh … wait for it … wait for it … the crime of the century … someone dared to insert the wrong word in a poem!! 😁
Let’s take your comment about “thought police”, for example. Oh you poor sweet thing, didn’t anyone bother to tell you? There’s no such thing as “thought police”. “Thought police”, if they exist at all, are bogeywomen living in your own head. They are merely manifestations of your own psyche. (Or manifestations of your own guilty conscience, I dare say). 🙄
When you angrily accuse others of being the “thought police”, you are actually behaving in an astonishingly childish way. Such accusations are utterly incomprehensible to Westerners, let me assure you. Such accusations suggest the poor soul making said accusations is suffering from some form of paranoia, and believes someone is trying to come between her and her fantasies. 😲
Guess what, honey? No one can come between you and your fantasies. Wanna know why no one can steal your fantasies? No one can steal your fantasies because your fantasies are … fantasies! You can cling to your fantasies or you can update or replace or discard your fantasies. But whatever you do with your fantasies only you can decide. Other people have no jurisdiction over your fantasies.
More to the point, other people – more often than not – have zero interest in your fantasies. If someone on here talks to you, again, they’re being kind-hearted toward you. You have to stop perceiving malice where none exists. People here actually like you, Snow, and are probably hugely sympathetic to your plight. Do not lash out at people who actually like you. Do not lash out at anyone, period. 🙂
I’m going to be really honest with you, Snow. I have no idea why I even talk to you, because I can’t really relate to your situation and am indifferent to whether or not people choose to act on their limerence. (Not my life. Not my problem). I think the reason I spend so much time talking to you is that you subconsciously remind me of my biological mother. I think my biological mother had undiagnosed borderline personality disorder – or cptsd, if you like. (To a layperson, bpd and cptsd appear to be very similar conditions).
Basically, when my mother was feeling relaxed, she was a wonderful human being to be around. She was genuinely very warm, very idealistic, and had the most amazing imagination. When my mother was feeling stressed, however, she was moody, she had outbursts of irrational anger, and she was prone to paranoid ideation.
Like many people with bpd, my mother incorrectly believed that people were mysteriously out to get her. (People in actual fact weren’t out to get my mother. People in actual fact were out to GET AWAY from my mother, because they found her over-the-top personality deeply embarrassing and her constant stream of false accusations so confusing. No one genuinely disliked my mother).
My mother also had a very troubled relationship with her own father. It seems like he either ignored her or overindulged her. Females who don’t have good relationships with their dads seem to grow up into extremely unhappy women who relentlessly strive to manipulate the opposite sex and lack emotional maturity. If they attract a man at all, they invariably attract a weak man, a doormat, a pushover.
Don’t be that woman, Snow. She isn’t you and she isn’t worthy of you. You can do better. You can be better. Don’t let your past or your present stop you from being a “class act”. 🙂“
“Bewitched says
FEBRUARY 19, 2024 AT 4:55 PM
Dear Snowpheonix,
I just wanted to say something. To me, you and Sammy seem like such great friends on here, most of the time, with the odd tussle now and again.
But recently you and Sammy have had a falling out and I must say that I feel your pain. I really do not want to get involved except to offer some support, from afar, and tell you that I interpret it as something triggered in Sammy, rather than anything you did.
The things he said seemed very personal, but try not to take it personally – if you can. Its hard, I know. I don’t know what is going on with you Sammy, but I thought you said some really harsh things. None of us are so robust that we can handle hearing that sort of thing. Stoic or not. Again, I hate to interfere but I can fee how hurt Snowpheonix is and it makes me sad that this has blown up.
Snowpheonix, I am sure that it will work itself out. You are going through a harder time than most of us right now, and you have a lot to contend with. Which is why I am sending you an extra large and robust virtual hug.
REPLY
Snowpheonix says
FEBRUARY 20, 2024 AT 6:26 AM
Dear Bewitched,
Thank you so much for your empathetic message, which made me in tears for a short time (I habitually, automatically control them while wishing to have more of them… *sigh*) I could even allow myself to be “weak” when only by myself — annoyingly stoic. ✊ (I take a “freezing” shower right after a hot one, striving for one minute…)
“you and Sammy seem like such great friends on here, most of the time, with the odd tussle now and again.”
That’s how I have been feeling (despite we disagree on many issues), even feeling familiar and comfortable enough to tease and joke a little bit (do you see I joke with any other suffering “ghosts” here?) But you and I might be both wrong. 😑
“But recently you and Sammy have had a falling out and I must say that I feel your pain.”
Thank you for your sensibility and empathy for the wounds dashed with more salt….
“I really do not want to get involved except to offer some support, from afar, “
Thank you, Bewtiched! Please do not stress yourself for such an unexpected scene, just imagine you’re an audience “from afar”, watching improvising shows: one actor suddenly either had an Aspie meltdown, or changed his role from Dr. Jekyll to Mr. Hyde, or seized by Oedipus complex, or attacked by Narcissus’ envy, or forgot insert Moses’ Ten Commandments” sheet into his white laced sleeve…. 📕
“I interpret it as something triggered in Sammy, rather than anything you did.”
I have some inklings on what might have happened, but really do not want to put any “theories” on the stage now. In the East, to respect others, one FIRST, FAR MOST needs to “save face” of them, meaning not to embarrass them in public in any forms.
“The things he said seemed very personal, but try not to take it personally – if you can. It’s hard, I know. “
Words speak for themselves. First and Far most speaker reveal themselves before they could affect audiences. All the conversations still lay open in LwL, everyone is entitled to have his/her interpretation based on their personality and perspectives. What we think, feel and respect ourself is the MOST important than anyone else’s biased or fair opinions… There is no need to defend our most sincere, authentic speeches.
“Choose not to be harmed, you won’t feel harmed
Don’t feel harmed, and you haven’t been.” — Marcus Aurelius.
I do carry image of Aurelius around — my hero. I still can’t remember all his words in “Meditations” (after reading twice), but remember the main principles. 👑
How to reduce effects of malicious words? Just read them 8-10 times over… then their negative effects WILL reduce. If you don’t believe me, give one of 18 “cake ingredients” a try! 👀
“Snowpheonix, I am sure that it will work itself out.”
When dealing with any matters that have other people involved, I leave 50% of outcome to Fate; since I can only try best in my 50% of portion. If it “will work itself out”, great; if not, C’est la vie! 🫓 Just prepare for possible worsts all the time…
“You are going through a harder time than most of us right now, and you have a lot to contend with.”
In COO there is an idiom: bad luck never walks alone…. By a bad fortune, you fell in a well; then someone throw a pile of stones at you when you’re falling without any rope… I’m always awed by those aged idioms. 👏
“ Which is why I am sending you an extra large and robust virtual hug.”
Your robust virtual hug may have caused my lucky Karma — I’m struck ⚡️ by a Glimmer this early evening, which has sent me into Symphonie Fantastique! 🎶 💃🏻
Nisor says
FEBRUARY 20, 2024 AT 10:42 AM
Bewitched, hi.
Yes, it’s very sad to see this altercate between Snow and Sammy, it really makes me very, very sad, because I care and love them both equally. I think there’s a misunderstanding on each others posts and wish it gets resolved or at least leave it at that. No more stone throwing in any direction please. We can’t be the referee in this case because they are equally estimated by LwL community. I like the exchange with both of them, and I admire and respect Sammy as a human being who also has his own set of difficulties but seems are not easy for him to express them. I hope it gets resolved soon. I suggest not to put more stress on
anybody as we’re all
suffering enough with Limerence and need this place/blog to find solace and understanding. Forgiveness is a beautiful word, it brings healing to broken hearts and relationships. My two cents. I don’t want to get involved in this issue any further…
Hugs to Sammy and Snow.
Best wishes to all.
Snowpheonix says
FEBRUARY 20, 2024 AT 6:01 PM
🫂 Nisor, Bewitched 🫂
Stay Strong! 💪
Bewitched says
FEBRUARY 20, 2024 AT 8:55 PM
Indeed Nisor, you are a wise one.
I am glad to see you so happy again, Snowpheonix. And I hope Sammy is feeling okay too (I normally enjoy your ‘purple prose’ immensely, btw).
B x
Snowpheonix says
FEBRUARY 21, 2024 AT 1:42 PM
🫂 Biwitched 🫂
I’m very fond of my “purple proses” 😂, that killed a lot of my brain cells in the train, office, living and bed rooms… framed within important dates, myths and rituals….“
“We agreed to amicably separate and cease any texting or talking on the phone for good.”
LiS,
I think in time you’ll thank yourself for that conversation. I know it won’t come easy at first. Try to remember why you fell in love with your SO and cherish her every day.
I’ve been officially single since 2011 and I regret so many reasons why that is. Had I made any decisions like you and LO just did, perhaps things would be different now.
Keeping you in thought Friend. Stay strong..
Hi LiS,
That’s surprising news!
But it sounds like you had fruitful conversations and looked the reality of each others feelings and situation in the eye?
I do hope you feel at peace with it!
Looking forward to your post, I‘m very interested as we are a bit similar in our stories.
I wish you all the best and that this decision was the best for both of you and you can move forward now.
@Sammy
I have seen my name mentioned in one of your texts and I don’t understand what’s all about. I think you should read my text again. If I got involved it was to appease the tension between you and Snow , and bring peace. I now know I should’ve not gotten involved in this, but unfortunately I did and repeated Snow words that is causing you to have some animosity towards me. If I offended you I sincerely beg you for your forgiveness. Can you?
You’re still my Cyrano de Bergerac (without the large nose).
Hope you’re well and kicking 🦵…
I’ve discussed my limerence in an in-person “recovery” group based on AA. It meets once a week at a church. We start with a shared meal, men and women attend a group “lesson” (incorporating Christian-flavored spirituality and Psycho-social coping strategies) and then men and women separate for individual disclosure. In a closed room we read and agree to group rules and expectations then we divide the allotted time by number of people and each person uses their minutes to say anything they want or feel like they need to say. Nobody can interrupt an individual and even non-verbal reactions such as head nodding (even in sympathy) is heavily discouraged. Once time is over we move on to the next. There is no feedback given, no discussion. This is NOT intended to be like individual or group therapy. Nobody here is to work on interpersonal communication skills and the assumption is that nobody is properly qualified to offer individualized therapy. I’ve attend 5-6 times and each time is different with different struggles being expressed. Only a few people discuss their battle with alcohol. Many deal with general anxiety and depression disorders and, interestingly, many women attend for “sex addictions” What I’ve found is their descriptions for the latter sound more like limerence than an actual addiction to sexual behavior. It’s just that very few people have heard of limerence, much less have a well-formed understanding of it. It’s practically non-existent.
It’s a very useful group and I don’t mind the diversity in “addictions”. The reality is that everyone that shows up is dealing with a challenge that carries with it distraction and shame while robbing each of us well-being and productivity. The strategies used are probably the same too… avoid the drug, the drink and the LO… fill your time with meaningful, prosocial activities…
I do tailor my participation a bit. I’m a Catholic with a very particular and well-developed understanding of the faith and I’m quite put-off by this program’s understanding of Christology. I would say 80-85% of the program is for a general audience of no particular worldview/religion, but I find the 10-15% obnoxious and ill-informed. So I sit out… I have my own faith-based reading list and I read from it for the hour all the others are in “community worship”. It hasn’t been a big deal at all. I don’t make a fuss and I expect to be returned the favor…
That’s my experience of discussing limerence in a small group. I do recommend it!
Awesome SJ! You are so lucky to have found this group. I’ve participated in a variety of support groups over the years and I’ve never experienced the absence of feedback. That is interesting. Does it work? Fascinating!
I have wondered about this myself and I honestly don’t know. I think in general people don’t want feedback as much as they simply want to express their feelings and grievances to some other living soul.
First time writing on here although I have been devouring this website for 4 months or so. I am so impressed by the level of self-awareness and reflection I have been reading from DrL and everyone and the respect towards one another. The input on here has been invaluable to my overcoming current limerence at work (have been limerent many many times in my life, never that consciously though). So for me it’s a no brainer, yes to Bootcamp absolutely yes! Such a generous idea! On a practical level, I am unsure where the site operates from, England or USA? Time zone could be important for Bootcamp, that is all. I reside in the UK.
I’m pretty sure that Dr L is in the UK
Let’s just all meet in Hawaii for this bootcamp! I wanna go snorkeling afterward 🌊
As others have mentioned, I wonder how much good therapy is being here. Granted it’s called “Living with Limerence” …. I know that there are a lot of people in over the year that I have been here, that I consider friends, and wouldn’t want to loose contact with them. So I keep coming back. I’d like to think that I have made progress since I found this place. A place that helped me disclose to my wife. A place that also gave her an outlet to express what she felt as the wife of a limerent.
My wife told me yesterday that I do my “best” (sarcasm, which she is the queen of lol) drinking on Sunday. She said “you go to church and then you come home full of guilt and shame”. Which is an accurate observation. Not through the fault of the pastor or congregation. But I do find a lot of the pastor’s sermons follow back around to limerence, for me.
To the person (I forget who it was, maybe Cordellia) that asked if limerence is all that different from alcoholism; take it from a lifetime functioning alcoholic, it is exactly like it. My religious and conservative parents won’t acknowledge their own son’s addiction. Most of my wife’s family when we first got together would say “Oh Adam just like to have a drink or two.” Both my boys never said much until they got older. For the most part everyone I know pretty much pretends that’s not the case. My wife’s sister will call me out on it now, especially since Momma went sober back in 2019. But if I ever confessed an addiction to another woman while married, they’d be pulling up the cross and grabbing the hammer. That is why my wife and boys are the only ones that know. And I have lost the place in their heart that I was in with my boys. And my wife sometimes too.
You see all the time now the preaching of giving people with mental illness a voice. If we don’t talk about it we can’t help people. Pretending suicide doesn’t happen doesn’t help. I remember people here telling me I was “noble” for disclosing to my wife about limerence. Why? Why are we open to everything as a society now, whether it be mental illness, suicide, sexuality, gender identity, race, etc and yet almost every limerent here is ashamed. Why? Because few have anyone they feel they can talk to about it without judgement or ostracism.
So yes Dr L, great idea. Now we just figure out how to implement it.
Hi Adam,
I see you are really struggling with guilt and shame. Have you tried praying and asking God for forgiveness, either alone or with someone? This has been the most important part of my healing, whether it was regarding my life prior to Christ, during my walk when I’ve made mistakes, and especially with my limerent episodes. If you *practice* asking God for forgiveness, and *practice* accepting that He does, you may find that He will. 💙
Limerent Nurse
I have not yet prayed on my own. I pray at church with the rest of the congregation. But have yet to make a personal prayer to God. I don’t know what my apprehension is. You, Miss Lovisa, Nisor and MJ have been so supportive of encouraging me to pray. Maybe it is the same apprehension I have in fellowship outside of Sunday service. I think it makes easier to think I am still an outsider. I think the closer I get the more I feel I will get assimilated. And while I do like the pastor’s sermons, that help me personally, and I know the Bible from my past religious upbringing, I am afraid of that. That’s what made me leave religion back when I did the first time.
Adam, I don’t like it when my fears hold me back. Last year I tried a new trail that was absolutely beautiful and I knew that I would enjoy the petroglyphs in a cave at the end of the trail. Unfortunately, I never made it to that cave. It was such a lame problem, but the trail was cut into the side of a mountain so on one side there was a steep cliff. I just couldn’t get past my darn fear of heights. But it’s even more pathetic than that. I was afraid of my fear. I worried that I would get a panic attack and then I might not be able to get myself down the mountain. My fear of fear was the reason I turned back. It’s so silly. I never saw the petroglyphs.
Don’t let your fears hold you back, Adam. God wants to hear from you. Pray today.
I’ll tell you how we pray just in case you don’t know how to start.
We fold our arms, bow our heads and close our eyes.
Open the prayer by addressing God, “Dear Heavenly Father…”
Thank him for some blessings…
Ask for help with something, “Please help me learn to pray…”
Close the prayer in Jesus’ name, “In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.”
You can try it my way or do it a different way, but just try it.
Good luck, brother!
@Adam,
I wouldn’t get through my days if I didn’t make time for prayer. Even on days where I am rushed, I will do it in the car. A very simple prayer called the Jesus prayer goes like this .
“Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, have mercy on me a sinner”
That’s it. If you don’t want to start with something like that, you could just sit and thank God for all the good in your life. Even the bad stuff too. Our Father loves to hear from his Children. No matter the circumstances.
Yes, the Jesus Prayer is big in the Orthodox church mysticism. Monks get into the habit of saying it literally continuously. It’s basic and sums up everything you need in a prayer in just one line.
Hi Adam,
When a house is on fire what does one do? HELP! Right?
The same thing with a prayer, you cry out to God. Like “Oh God, I feel totally lost, please come help me”, and give God time to answer your prayer. Stay quiet for a while, cry if you must, be humble and pray with the expectation that God hears your prayer, have faith in His power. Because it’s impossible to please God if one doesn’t have faith that He is. I have you and MJ in my prayers. Actually I think of all the LwL community and ask God to bring peace to all. For there’s nothing else we can do for one another, not even share a hug when someone is really down, but to stay in solidarity and hope for the best. Cheer up, you’re not alone. Jesus loves you more than we do.
Just trust Him.
Have a great day.Hugs.
Adam, hello again! I just want to throw in another perspective. I find religion and philosophy fascinating, to the point that I’m not really committed to any dominion. Yes I have more affiliation with the religion I grew up with but that is loosely.
I feel humble as a small being in this big amazing universe that will be here many, many years after I am long gone.
So I think it’s ok to simply follow your own path, and if praying to God is the right thing for you that is really wonderful but if it’s not, that is ok too.
“I have you and MJ in my prayers.”
Thanks Nisor.. 🤗
Hi Adam,
Why not go to the “source” and get your response instead? You know your Bible as you have said…. the Book of Luke chapter 15: verses from one to thirty two. (LUKE 15:1-32). It’s a beautiful chapter referring to the Love of the Father for his children. He’s searching for his sheep…” and when He has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.” And when he comes home he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost.”
If you want to be found… He is willing to help but if not , He doesn’t force his way into nobody . He is gentle as a dove. Have a good blessed day.
Adam,
I‘m not religious at all, as in I belong to a church (any more), but in a crisis or when I‘m very scared, a prayer comes sometimes automatically to me.
I believe if there is a God, he/she (whatever being) will understand anything, and if you don’t feel like praying and prefer to pray in a congregation or wherever or not at all, he will understand you anyway. Just do what feels right to you. Maybe a prayer will come naturally at some time, in fear or joy, maybe not. I don’t think there should be rules and pressure about rituals. That wouldn’t sound truly Christian to me, if one had to follow prescribed rules to get Gods ear.
But since I don’t belong to a religion, I shouldn’t talk , I don’t know. Just my two cents and I‘ll shut up now.
Dear Adam,
We all care about you and want you to feel better and succeed in your goals. I hope you know that, or feel that, in our responses. We do not want to add to any “church hurt” that you experienced in your past. Consider my responses just as “tips and tricks” to try to help 😉
Yes, the ultimate imaginary friend, I guess, Mila.
Frederico,
and why not!
I want to thank everyone for your concern and responses. I thank everyone for their perspective, religious or not. So don’t count yourself out Mila, or anyone else. I am in the middle of it all, and I am trying to find which way is the right way for me.
I said a prayer this morning before I left for work. I was thinking about checking in on everyone this morning when I got to work and it reminded me that Olivia had not checked back in since I last checked her before I slept last night. ( https://livingwithlimerence.com/how-to-get-rid-of-limerence/#comment-55368 ) So I prayed for her and her safety. I do not want anything to happen to her. She is in a bad way and it is not something I can relate to so I feel so self conscious about what I replied to her. I guess that was a prayer out of fear.
Nisor
I remember the chapter. But I will read it again tonight when I get home. I am skeptical God misses me leaving. But I will try to take it to heart. I am going to try and step out of my comfort zone and attend fellowship tonight at church. If the weather is willing. We might be getting some bad storms this evening. Otherwise I will try to go.
Hey Adam,
I was worried about Olivia too. Your response to her was spot-on.
I had also been thinking about her and while I worried a bit more, I saw that Lovisa had left such a great /practical / useful comment that I figured it was as good as we could do for her, for now. Until she returns to LwL to tell us how she is doing.
It never entered my mind to say a prayer for her. But of course you thought of it, ever-thoughtful Adam. You pray for others even when you may not feel like doing it for yourself.
You’re brilliant. Just sayin’!
BTW I am not a fantastic pray-er. But I could make worrying an Olympic Sport and win the gold medal…
Hi Bewitched,
Olympic Sport’s Worrying winners cannot have two gold medalists ! I thought I had it! I’ll settle for Bronze… don’t even want Silver …ha. Silver, anyone?
Good day to you.
Dear Nisor,
Ah-ha so I have company?
I am quite surprised to hear that you are also a worrier. You do not come across like that at all!
Maybe when a person gets to a certain age and have had verifiable genuine things happen, to cause them worry, its inevitable that they do. But mine is pretty extreme. Anxiety is also something I struggle with (a little bit obsessive compulsive too). Amazingly, limerence has distracted me and so I feel like my old day to day worries and anxieties may strike again once limerence passes. As i have been describing, I am very LC almost NC these past 6 weeks but feel maybe old worries and preoccupations are returning now.
Have you also experienced this (limerence brough a welcome break from day to day general worries)?
A great day to you too 🤯☺️
Good morning Bewitched,
Congratulations for being in LC/ almost NC for so long, six weeks is quite a bit! Don’t you feel the grief or loneliness it brings, or do you calm yourself by thinking ‘I’ll see him again”? Because there’s a big difference if you’re actually counting with the expectation of seeing him one way or the other, than “knowing” it’s N/C for ever. That “for ever” is a real killer. One goes through the pain and suffering as if someone has died, it’s as losing a part of you , a dream is finished. And that hole and emptiness that remains, one has to fill it up with something else immediately if one wants this Limerence affliction to pass without too much pain. I leaned on Jesus, that is I transferred my worries and afflictions to Him, knowing that He’s all powerful , not like LO who is not the panacea to all my troubles. At the beginning of LE, my LO was the balsam to everything. ( I really didn’t have any worries of my own doing, but was suffering for my sons divorce and his suffering affected me quite a bit. It was really a way of my escaping from everything, reality. But one has to understand that actually LO cannot and will not solve everything or anything for that matter. So I turned to a Higher power and the “real fellowship “ at church. It’s confronting reality and knowing that we’re weak creatures in need of help. Also, realizing I have an SO who is real, next to me in whom I can truly lean on and has been my strong support all these years. Just became more understanding of him, looking for his love and sharing with him. ( SO is not a romantic or flirty one like LO, he’s a stoic.)
I had only worried a lot when bringing up the children, that is when they got sick, or if problems at school, their future, and when they left home for the military and after for the Uni. I’m usually a very calmed person, very realistic, but I don’t like getting off my comfort zone. I mean, I don’t like to be shocked , I don’t think anybody does. I’ve had those shocks, like when my SO had a heart attack and we were on vacation with friends , it was a horrible nightmare. But one learns, and when his second one happened I was very calmed, first thing I said : “ Lord, you know I’m alone and in deep need, please help me stay calm “. And He calmed me; I called the ambulance etc. etc. And when my son went to the war zone, I also left him in the Lords hands and didn’t worry a bit. I said: “ Lord, you know I can’t watch over my son when he’s away and in danger, I leave him in your hands to take care of him for me.” I stayed calmed and didn’t worry a bit. Thanks to my Lord who has guided me all along. On Psalm 56:3 says:
“When I am afraid, I will trust in Him”. (Jesus)
The mind cannot hold two thoughts at the same time, hence you choose which one takes precedence.
As one gets older, one looks back at life and wonders: “ how did I do it, from where did I get all that strength?
Now my worry is being left alone if my SO passes to better life before me. You see, there’s always soy in the air trying to rob you of your joy… I rejoice in the Lord of my salvation to guide me till the end, and trust that He will; or else one can go mad! We need to have real good friends to support you in any afflictions in your life. Not many, but a few real good hearted ones. You don’t have to unburden all your problems or worries on them either, they’ve their own.
I pray and hope you can balance off your emotions and worries, and for the Lord to give you knowledge, understanding and wisdom to carry you on till the end.
Best wishes and a big bear hug from grandma.
Dear Nisor,
I am grateful to be in the warm embrace of one of your hugs – you are like an angel – lucky for me that someone is looking out for me. No matter if I pray or not, I still love it when someone says a prayer for me. That’s odd when it seems more valuable from someone else than from myself, right?
You are also 100% correct when you said “Congratulations for being in LC/ almost NC for so long, six weeks is quite a bit! Don’t you feel the grief or loneliness it brings, or do you calm yourself by thinking ‘I’ll see him again”? Because there’s a big difference if you’re actually counting with the expectation of seeing him one way or the other, than “knowing” it’s N/C for ever. That “for ever” is a real killer. ”
Yes, the issue will be how I respond when I see him again. Sorry, that must be a little bit painful for those like you and John who have no real expectation or hope of seeing their LO again (it seems). I feel like you and John have been really helping one another. I love reading your exchanges. Its interesting (and terrifying) because of the timescales involved. Also because both stories are so deep and affecting. I am still scared that a dream could have set all this in motion for you, Nisor, but it seems that it was there all the time, only dormant, perhaps?
I feel like you are right and that seeing my LO f2f will set me back. But maybe not as far back as other occasions in the past. When I look back, I can see that I indulged my limerence more in the past, I looked forward to seeing him so much. Whereas nowadays I am more aware and this might (?) help to take a bit of a more detached view. I still think it will affect me because seeing him f2f always affects me badly, enormous highs and then lowest lows, but perhaps I have better ways to deal with it these days and I am certain that it will pass after a period (it will probably require months rather than weeks to get back to ‘normal’ and that’s ok). My goodness, it is exhausting though, isn’t it? I have to admit that the LO provided distraction from problems in my life, things that were outside of my control. It was like he was a guardian angel too?….
Placing your worries in God’s hands is the only way when you cannot control what happens e.g. in their dangerous travels and jobs, or in their relationships. I don’t think that there is anything else that you can do, apart from love them 💚. My approach is the same, don’t worry about what I cannot control, although I have to tell myself to stop worrying every time my husband and child go out the door.
ALL my best to you X
Hi Bewitched,
Thanks for your beautiful, poignant message. I really appreciate it. No one else knows of my LE except the LwL community. So, it’s very touching when someone understands your deep emotions without making caustic comments. Not many people can understand us limerents.
In regard if I experienced limerence bringing me a welcome break from day to day general worries, YES! A lot, for about fifteen months or so. I don’t do it as much now, but I did escape to his shadow to bring me comfort!!! Incredible! A guardian Angel as you mentioned. But I was besides myself with this strong bout of limerence. On this month of May , it will be a year! It still makes me cry. Your message made me cry.
As you say, it seems my emotions were there all the time, just dormant, like a poisonous snake ready to strike me. Time had just stopped right there, when we separated. I didn’t fight for the love of my life. I behaved like a coward, too arrogant, bordering in narcissism I think. I wish I were limerent for LO then… The extent of the things I did to reach LO two years ago are unprecedented for me! From where did I get that courage and strength? I don’t know, but I felt super strong and vigorous, energetic! Ha. As reality sets in all that vigor subsides…It really was extenuating! A drain in your emotions, that’s why I didn’t try and call LO anymore. I love myself too!
I really feel for you, the excitement to see LO and then the lows, it’s unbearable. I don’t think I could handle seeing him and not having him; I’d definitely remove myself from the scene. I’m too passionate. See all John did to get to his LO, he fought for what he wanted, I chickened out, I didn’t fight the fight. There was no fight to fight, it was all my stupid .mind. In my conversation with him two years ago I said to him, you’re cheating on me. He got angry and said: “ I never cheated on you. You listened to your friends, they wanted to separate us”. I dropped the subject because that’s not true, my friends never got involved in my affairs, ever. Well, I should have told him, it’s because I felt restrained like in a straitjacket… I didn’t have the courage or energy to argue with him. He always wins or knows how to defend himself very well. Now it’s too late anyway.
I’m one way or the other every limerent suffers the consequences of love!!!
I also think a lot about Speedwagon, he’s living in torture! He must’ve developed nerves of steel, that’s close encounters every day!!!
I also think of Frederico, who just recently entered the club of “never again hopes of seeing LO” , it’s a very painful decision as I said before, some part of you dies in the process of letting go…
I’ll quote Adam’s song, And you let her go, I don’t remember the title well, but if he’s reading let him put up the link. ( I don’t know how to do it). I love the song. And also : “ONLY LOVE CAN HURT LIKE THIS”, for the forever mortals romantics…
I wrote you a book! Best wishes, and don’t worry at all, it makes you wrinkled and truly, worrying doesn’t change a thing, just makes you age. So let go of the worries. I’ll keep you in my prayers. A very tight hug.
Correction: not a year on May, but two years of limerence. What a beauty!
Thank you Nisor for your “book”. I love how you joined the dots amongst all of the people who are in the club that may never see their LO again. Facing this must be so monumental. I didn’t have to do it yet. The Death of Hope can be metaphorical or actual, more actual in the sense of LOs that live far away in space or in time. Still, even with physical separation, I am sure that the Death of Hope also needs to happen in the metaporical sense – giving up on them in your mind and emotions, which is something really difficult to do. As we are all finding out.
I think your LO must represent your romantic archetype, somehow. Dr L write something about this in some of his blogs about “The Glimmer givers” https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-glimmer-givers/
Early romantic encounters, the ‘first love’ seems to exert a strong pull. I have heard it said that no-one can break your heart as badly again as the first heartbreak you encounter. I am not sure if it is true. But any heartbreak that goes deep must leave scars.
Nisor, I really hope that your SO’s health is better now and that he is taking care of himself, for your sake. I’m sure he is – he is your ‘rock’, as you say and would do anything for you. But you are a strong lady too. We never know hoe strong we are until something happens. I also experienced this in my family. And got an unexpected help from my LO, as he distracted me from a lot of grief. The silver lining on the limerence cloud…
I had better get back to work….Sending hugs, have a lovely weekend X
I’ve been mulling this over in my head today. I hope I can make these points succinctly (not a strength of mine 😩)
1 many of your responses address the source of the shame. I can’t comment on the source, only that it’s clearly associated with almost every case of limerance.
2 many of us disclose in ways that are effectively useless at alleviating limerence (eg telling friends who lack compassion) because it does nothing but perpetuate the shame
3 my concern is that the addiction isn’t so much to the person. In my case, LO even made no sense. It’s the addiction to the shame and the measures we keep taking to perpetuate it because the shame is what we know. The familiarity is comforting
4 Adam’s post (if I’m reading it correctly) seems to illustrate my point. Drinking is shameful, but people see him drink. It’s not a secret. Everyone ignores it. It would seem you didn’t derive enough shame from it.
5 disclosing to LO, or doing whatever it takes to kill the uncertainty, almost certainly destroys limerence. We don’t actually want our LOs. We want someone we know doesn’t want us because then we can sit in our comforting secret shame. Nobody needs to know about our obsessive self-flagellation do they? That’s my own secret pleasure. My douleur exquise.
6 if we are addicted to secret shame, would removing the stigma around ‘people addiction’ do anything? Would we transfer our addiction to some other thing we could hide and feel shameful about.
7 when I was in a relationship and not limerent for LO, my partner was very narcissistic and I felt shame every day. I didn’t need LO to provide that any more.
8 I no longer am ashamed of how I felt about LO nor about my bold moves while intoxicated. I’m still embarrassed, sure. But not ashamed. I can laugh about it. Why don’t I need limerence any more?
I suppose I healed my addiction to shame. I no longer seek it in any form.
I have never heard of or thought of shame itself being an addiction. I always thought it was a byproduct of some kind of internal dissonance or conflict … for me, the shame came with limerence when I desired my LO so much that I felt like an adulteress for coveting him so much, even though I am married. Though I did not commit adultery physically, all of my thoughts, feelings and emotions were directed toward this man 😳
Anyway, I feel like shame, when it is there, wants to “go” somewhere. That is why I pray … I want it to go to God, and not stick around. The tricky thing with limerence for me is that is sticks around as long as the limerent episode is happening. Even though I pray, and I know God forgives me, I have learned that limerence just takes an exceedingly long time to finish its course — and so does the shame.
I have never heard of shame being an addiction in itself. I am not sure if I believe it. Definitely, people can make you feel ashamed, but I think most personal shame comes from doing things we know we aren’t supposed to do, or feeling things we think we aren’t supposed to. And then doing those things, feeling those things, or thinking those things compounds the shame 🫠
That’s so wonderful, Adam. Do you want to talk about how your experience was praying? Or is that too “nosy” of me? 🤭 It’s OK if you aren’t interested, I know it’s personal.
I showed my wife her post last night and we talked about it together. As a woman (and having mental health issues herself) I wanted to make sure with her what I said in my post wasn’t insensitive or offensive since when it comes to mental health (up until limerence) I only really dealt with when it comes to my wife’s. Anyway I refreshed the page on my phone last night before I went to sleep and she still hadn’t come back to post.
When I got dressed for work this morning I jumped in the truck and before I connected my phone to the bluetooth for music I refreshed the page and she still hadn’t come back to post.
This is the gist from my memory (which is awful lol)
God please protect Olivia from herself. She is in a bad place and needs someone to be by her side because I can’t. And bless the community for trying to help so many people through this thing we all have in common. Please look after her God and bless her. Amen
That’s what I can remember. It’s been a hectic day at work today so I haven’t been able to around much here, so I didn’t keep it fresh in my head.
That is a beautiful prayer, Adam.
Hi Adam, you are often the ‘first responder’ to new posters here. Which you should be very proud of. In fact you were the first person to respond to my first desperate message on LwL! For that I will always be grateful. To be honest I don’t remember exactly what you wrote but I do remember that you just made me feel welcome and that you and others have/are going through it and I’m not a crazy person. This was really very soothing. I will always be grateful to you for this and recently I have on occasion been first responder too !
The ripple effect !
I see it often, that new posters don’t come back or don’t respond. I’m sure they may be reaching out to lots of different sources ‘in the moment’ and they don’t follow up on LwL for lots of reasons.
And on LwL you have to really be ‘in the know’ to find recent comments.
Anyway, even if Olivia doesn’t read your reply, and I hope she did, for sure others like Olivia will do in the future and your advice and Lovisa’s great advice also will be really helpful to them !
That’s wonderful, Adam. I am partnering with you in prayer for Olivia 💙
IMHO
That’s okay you don’t remember what I said because I honestly didn’t remember that I was the first one that responded to your initial post here. I am very thankful that you found it useful. I often times overthink what I say after I post it and can’t take it back.
There was a woman that recently posted here on LwL and I am pretty certain it was you that responded to her first. I read her initial post and I knew that I could not be the ‘first responder’ because of her circumstances I wouldn’t be level headed. Some people’s LEs hit too close to home so I am grateful that there a lot of other people here that frequent responding to newcomers.
Limerent Nurse
Thank you for your prayer. I can only hope that she finds her way in a healthy manner.
Adam, Limerent nurse, Hmho , Lovisa , Im on
board for prayer for Olivia. May The Lord have mercy on her and guide her through this terrible turmoil she’s going through. We declare peace in her mind . Olivia, if you read these messages know that you’re not alone. We re rooting for your good health.
Be calm
and best wishes.
@Adam,
“There was a woman that recently posted here on LwL and I am pretty certain it was you that responded to her first.”
Yes I remember and I can imagine why you didn’t reply on that occasion. On a lighter tone, at least it’s good to know one person on LwL did read my reply😀 . I am probably not the best person always to respond as I’m still in LE myself.
I notice that often newcomers post a question or cry for help and never revisit or at least don’t post again. That’s ok too.
Best wishes
@Adam
I wonder if you told everybody you’d become sober and only ever drank on the sly (think 50’s housewife hiding the gin in the cistern), would that provide the secret shame you’re seeking?
For me, when I was with my ex, something traumatic happened to me and I suddenly gained about 5kgs in a couple of weeks. My ex was incredibly unsupportive and rude about it. I started eating in secret. I was hurting myself but it gave me a secret guilty pleasure. It was my way of controlling the narrative.
Even now that my health and fitness are a priority again, when I’m tracking my macros for my coach, sometimes I won’t add in the five pieces of popcorn I ate off my daughter’s plate. It’s virtually nothing calorie-wise, but I think it’s still a tiny little secret shame I might be holding onto!
Cordelia
I think my secret shame is wanting to be the hero. To be the rescuer. That’s how I feel validated. Am I bad for that?
About a month ago my wife’s two sisters, their SO’s and our nephew, friend of my sister-in-law’s and my wife’s father and step mother all stayed in a hotel for the weekend. My wife had not seen her sisters and brother in laws in years.
So the middle sister, her friend and her husband asked me if I wanted to go bar hopping with them. We’re all around the same age. It was all walking downtown so none of us were driving. After about the fourth or fifth stop my brother in law and I were walking, and his wife and her friend were walking together in front of us. And my brother in law turns to me and says “you know she can take care of herself”, speaking of his wife’s friend. I said “what do you mean?” “You’ve been escorting her everywhere if she starts to stray from the group. You went and chased after her when she realized she’d left her umbrella where we just were.” My response? “Well yeah a lady shouldn’t be walking around unescorted in downtown with a bunch of drunk men all around.”
That was a Saturday evening. Sunday evening after my wife, our youngest son, and myself got home I was telling her about what he said to me. My wife informs me that her sister’s friend had previously been in an abusive relationship and because of said abuse when she finally got out of the relationship she had taken martial art and self defense classes. She could have taken down any man faster than me.
I find that people think of my interactions with women to be antiquated. Well that’s the nice adjective to use. I’ve been called much worse, so I assume that is my shame. Or at least a lot of society would like me to feel shameful for it. But I don’t. Whether that is right or wrong I don’t know. Only if it is uncomfortable to the woman I am interacting with. Why I stopped calling exLO Miss as I do most women as I could tell she didn’t like it. My father taught me that was the way a gentlemen should be. Now I am just called sexist. *shrug*
Hi Adam,
I don’t think you should feel shame for chivalry or protectiveness. Of course you could be sensitive to the reactions of women in your orbit and if they seem to indicate that they are insulted or annoyed by you ‘taking care of them’, then of course you could respect their wishes and stop doing it and let them look after themselves. But I got to say that I would most certainly not complain in the slightest to being accompanied when downtown at night, having someone open doors, or call me ‘Miss’. And I think you already listen to what the women you interact with have to say about all of that, so no shame required.
When I was a younger woman, I used to get a bit more prickly, although only to men my own age. I always gave the older ones ‘a pass’ on gentlemanly behaviour. I’ve kindof changed my mind on it as I’ve aged and I really enjoy the help and attention nowadays. My SO always opens the door of the car for me (without me ever asking). I think its nice….
I love chivalry, Adam! I hope you don’t stop. I use my words when the chivalry is unwanted. Let me give you an example. At our summer camp we had a hand washing station with a 5-gallon water jug. We had a lot of hands to wash due to our large group and lots of messy camp activities so the jug had to be refilled at least once a day. I wanted to be helpful so I took it upon myself to carry the jug down to a spigot and refill it. The men in our camp (and the men from other camps) didn’t like watching a small woman lug that heavy jug back to camp. They all offered to do it for me. I said the same thing to each one, “I appreciate your offer to help. I know you are stronger than me and you could carry this water with ease, but I want to prove to myself that I can do it. If I get frustrated, I’ll ask for help.” Then I continued walking my soaked self slowly back to camp. It was a pathetic site. I genuinely appreciated all of the offers to help. I used my words to decline help and all of those chivalrous men respected my wishes. Adam, the ladies in your life will use their words if they don’t want your kind chivalry in that moment. Also, they might not want it in the moment, but they might want it at a different time. Don’t change a thing, Adam. Keep taking care of the women in your life.
What is bar-hopping anyway?
“What is bar-hopping anyway?”
Migrating from one bar to another on any given night. (Or day)
Ms. Lovisa, come on already. You’re making us older folks feel really really old today, lmao.. 🤣
@Adam,
What are we going to do with her? Lol..
Bewitched
Most of the younger women I interact WITH don’t seem to be upset or not like how I treat them. But they are really perplexed by it. They all usually ask our supervisor for all the years that I have known him. He just tells each new young lady that gets hired that I am “old-fashioned”. Which is him actually being nice as we a very much the opposite in that manner. And he seems to make sure that they are cared for at the job. Even if it’s only because he knows he’s going to get a talking to from me lol But thank you for your kind words Miss Bewitched.
Miss Lovisa
Bar hopping is going from one bar to another in a row rather than sit down at one place for drinks. I don’t usually do it, since I have gotten older. But I had a good time with them. Plus my brother in law was footing the bill so I didn’t want to be rude right? lol
Thank you for the story Miss Lovisa. That makes me feel better that I hope that women will convey to me something is not kosher with them that I might do. And I know my wife and her sisters know how I am so I am sure if her friend didn’t like me “escorting” her she would have said so.
Funny story. She offered me her cannabis vape. And I was like no thank you. And she asked if I had something against it. I said “yeah last time I some pot I thought aliens were going to abduct the cats. So yeah. Everyone had a good laugh and said then yeah just stick to drinks.
“What is bar-hopping anyway?”
Migrating from one bar to another on any given night. (Or day)
Ms. Lovisa, come on already. You’re making us older folks feel really really old today, lmao.. 🤣
Sorry MJ, it has nothing to do with my age, I’m not much younger than you and I am the same age as Adam by a couple years. It’s my religion… I don’t drink alcohol. I think my husband had some experience with bar-hopping when he was on a different management team. They did a lot of social team building which included drinking alcohol. They used to call my husband their “designated Mormon” because they could rely on him to be sober and do all the driving. My husband didn’t have a choice because it was a work activity. When my husband left that team, he was replaced by another Mormon (ironically) so they called the new guy the “designated Mormon.” I never could figure out why they wanted to drink at one place and then move to another place. My husband didn’t understand it either. It baffles me. Why move to a new bar?
Adam, I’m glad you had fun with your family.
All good Friend. I hope you are not offended. I suppose I forgot all about the non-drinking Mormon thing. I had a friend once who was Mormon. You think I would’ve remembered that..
Egg is on my face again..
I’ve been quiet here this week. Largely due to a period of relapse so I’ve hidden away. It started with feeling shame when i met my friend who challenged me on something I didn’t quite like hearing, then spending time with colleagues who mentioned LOs names then I sent messages to LO and suggested we should catch up. This was responded to positively until it came to specifying a date (which was LO suggestion). I suggested one then had no reply for 3 days. I today sent a flippant and self-exalting message to try and redeem myself for being left hanging, which was probably a bit too uncomfortably egotistical for me, the overthinker. Then I deleted all messages and will now try again to delete social media. I feel awkward and a bit ick but no withdrawals yet. This will come over the next few weeks. I’m thinking a relapse is just a blip… but it definitely heightens the shame and leads to hiding. Maybe accountability is a good thing especially with likeminded folk.
Hi Whoomp, sorry things aren’t great. You have been very honest here and hopefully this regret and icky feeling you mention will actually help, for you to turn a corner.
Many here do stupid things in some desperate hope and then feeling rubbish when you overly push the agenda and/or feel rejected.
It seems you are still in high limerence and typically the best thing to do is absolutely nothing. At least for a while. Or else your reactions can be rash as you have experienced. It’s ok, it’s not like you have committed a terrible crime or started a world war ! Your LO probably ( definitely?) has less emphasis on these interactions than you and not reading so much into the detail. So do try to rise above it and move on. Onwards, upwards !
Hi Whoomp, please don’t beat yourself up for relapsing. Been there… And for what it’s worth, I would’ve also called out *anyone* for asking for a time and then ghosting for three days!
The LwL community is great for accountability, because I’m too embarrassed to open up to anyone else about LO. Knowing the community is here when I need it has already helped me in this short time, even though I haven’t used it much.
You’re right on every count, of course, Trifles.
Who here hasn’t experienced relapsing? It happens, Whoomp, and I think the secret is to remember how it made you feel. That helps for when the feeling of temptation recurs.
Today, I was tempted to repeat something which ended up triggering me a year ago. I stumbled, unbelievably through a search engine, on a post I made on LwL a year ago. It stopped me in my tracks.
My current distraction is spring cleaning….
f
Frederico, ha – talk about being accountable …to yourself quite literally! It’s a bit scary what the internet knows, but as long as we don’t use our real (or at least full) names or too many incriminating details, we should be fine… 😉
Yes, you’re right. I got a bit of a shock! x
Ok, so here’s my story over the past week. After I’d emailed LO last Tuesday with my feelings about her latest cold spell and our perpetual hot/cold cycles in general and the effect it had on me, I didn’t expect to hear from her for quite awhile. So I was surprised to get a text from her a couple days later asking if I was still at work and if I had time to talk. I said she could call, and we had a short but very impactful conversation.
Up until that conversation, I’d always believed that I was the one with the stronger feelings. I knew she had feelings too, but I always thought hers were more under control, less overwhelming, less consuming, less limerent. I’ve always been more effusive, she’s more guarded. I’ve said things like “I love you” and “I adore you”; she says “I appreciate you” and “you’re sweet”. I’ve always wanted to talk every day; she sometimes wants to talk all the time while other times she doesn’t want to talk for days or weeks. I always interpreted that as meaning that my feelings were stronger than hers, that perhaps her feelings came and went, grew and faded while mine were consistently strong.
Last Thursday on the phone she started by telling me that she’d read my email, that she totally understood how I was feeling and why I felt bad and she said she was really sorry, that the last thing she ever wanted was to make me feel bad and that her tendency to shut down and not communicate when she was overwhelmed with emotion was something she hated about herself but she just couldn’t help it. She told me I was exactly right, that after we’d gotten too affectionate by text a month ago, she’d felt the need to withdraw because it was too much, but she couldn’t just tell me she needed space and instead she just stopped responding and went cold. She said she could completely understand how that must have felt for me and she felt really bad.
Then she told me this: “Everything that you feel, I feel at least 10 times stronger. Every time I avoid you, it’s because I get too afraid that I won’t be able to control my behavior if I have any contact with you”. She asked me if I noticed that sometimes when we were alone together, she didn’t look at me when we were talking. I said that yes, I had noticed this on occasion. She told me that those were times when she was afraid that if she even looked at my face, she’d lose control of her behavior and do something she’d hate herself for later. And then we had to get off the phone because she had to pick up her daughter, and we agreed to talk again the next day to have a frank discussion
So that was a “holy sh*t” moment for me… up until then, every time she’d go cold I’d see it through the lens of my own insecurities and anxieties and start thinking that it meant she’d lost her feelings for me, that she must be upset with me or annoyed by me, or maybe that she’d never really had feelings for me and I’d just imagined it all. In that moment, she made it clear that it was the exact opposite. It was also a holy sh*t moment of realizing just how extremely dangerous our situation had gotten – probably everyone else here had already realized the danger I was in but I was still believing that we had everything under control, that we could just keep talking and having feelings for each other but that we’d never let ourselves take it too far… and now here she was, in my mind the controlled and reserved one of us, telling me how close she’d been to losing control and crossing the line many times. That actually scared me.
And then after we hung up the phone, she compounded things by texting me a link to a song that she said she knew was inappropriate but that she just had to send it to me. It was a romantic song in Spanish with lyrics about holding your body and covering you with kisses and stuff like that. On my way home all I could think about was how utterly exhilarating and intoxicating it would be to just give in to temptation and dive into a full-blown romance with her. I was thinking that I knew it would certainly lead to disaster and destruction, but that it just might be worth it anyways.
And then I walked in the door at home and saw SO’s face and was immediately filled with love and affection for her; I spent the whole evening glued to her, talking and cuddling, just wanting to be close to her, held her close all night just thinking about how much I loved her and how devastated I’d be if we were ever separated. Needless to say I didn’t sleep well that night.
The next day I was busy enough with work to not think too much about LO until the end of the day when we had about 20 minutes to talk on the phone as she drove from work to her daughter’s school. We were both super anxious, spent the first 15 minutes of the call engaging in nervous chatter about nothing in particular, then finally we got down to the business of talking about our future together. She told me that we had to stop talking to each other, that we had to just limit ourselves to normal work interactions and nothing else, no more phone calls and no more texting – that while our relationship meant so much to her and she got so much out of her, it was also just taking too much of a toll on her. On one hand, she was fighting temptation constantly and always suffering from frustration that it couldn’t be more; at the same time she was feeling so much anxiety from a guilty conscience just from talking on the phone and texting even if nothing else ever happened. She said she was certain we couldn’t keep going on like this forever – that inevitably we’d either end up giving in and going too far, or we’d end up turning on each other because of our anxiety and frustration and we’d end up with all kinds of bad feelings between us, and that she never ever wanted either of those things to happen.
In that moment, as ludicrous as it sounds, I tried to push back, said that I thought we could keep things under control, that I could be satisfied just talking with her on the phone forever, that of course I always struggled with wanting more but that I would never let myself go too far, and that getting to talk and be part of each others’ lives to that extent was so much better than just going back to being strangers to each other. She stayed firm, said it just had to end. Then her daughter was walking to the car and we had to get off the phone. I had trouble thinking of anything to say, stammered a bit, finally managed “I know you’re right. I know. I don’t want to admit it to myself but I know you’re right and it’s the only way. I guess I’ll talk to you when I talk to you” and then she said goodnight and that was that.
I spent Saturday in a sort of daze, feeling overwhelmed by everything, and also feeling a lot of grief at the idea of never having any moments of closeness with her again or being part of each others’ lives anymore. But by the time I woke up on Sunday, I was feeling a lot better – I woke up next to SO with a feeling of peace and clarity, knew that it absolutely was the right path, that it would be better for everyone in the long run, that it would actually be kinda nice to go back to living an honest life and just loving one woman. And since then, I’ve been feeling really good. I feel relaxed and at peace. I have some moments of sadness here and there thinking about not being close to LO anymore, but there’s no anxiety or worry or resentment or any of those truly bad feelings, just a bittersweet feeling of missing someone that you care about but can’t be near.
Now, will this truly be the final chapter in this LE? Probably not… this has been a 7 year story so far, and we’ve ended it before and then cycled back many times. But it does feel different this time – this was the first time we were really completely open with each other about what we were feeling, the first time we really had a conversation and understood each other before agreeing to separate ourselves, the first time we actually talked about our pattern of hot/cold cycles and how hard it is on both of us and how we don’t want to just keep repeating it anymore. And also the first time I’ve really understood how hard this is on her, simultaneously fighting such strong temptation and guilt, and also how my belief that everything was safely under control was an illusion.
I feel confident that I won’t try to start things back up with her. I won’t initiate any texting or call her on the phone or arrange for us to meet up in person. I told her I won’t so I won’t – I’ve held myself to that for months at a time in the past and I’ll do it again. What’s more likely sometime in the future, once the feelings have cooled off a bit, is that she may cycle back and want to talk again, maybe just start with a little text asking how my kids are doing or something like that… something innocent, and I’ll feel so happy to hear from her, it’ll be so easy to tell ourselves that we could just start talking a little, that we really have it under control now, we’ve learned our lessons, that we can do better this time and really just be friends and not let our feelings get too hot… If and when that time comes, I honestly don’t know that I’d be able to straight up tell her “no we’re not talking anymore”, but I think I might at least have the ability to say “hey, are you sure you want to start this again? Shouldn’t we pause and really think about this?”
7 years of this with the same LO (?!?)… Oh mercy, don’t tell me it can go on like this! No way!
I’m one year in with a somewhat comparable situation with a coworker… we’ve never admitted feelings to each other, but I once told him with complete sincerity that I would take care of him if/when he loses his mind and our coworker has picked up on one (or both!) of us. He is beyond amused and entertained and delights in making these enticing little comments to me about LO. Every day. It’s usually “you know SJ… LO is the best!” and without skipping a beat I respond with a side smile and say “Indeed… LO is the best”. It’s become our own “call and response” private joke for us, except it’s not very private as we do this in front of everyone including LO.
It didn’t help that LO bought tea for me this morning….
My SO is going to have a significant diagnostic procedure next week to rule out cancer. I do hope he is okay and we have many years together, but I had to stop myself several times from fantasizing about LO this afternoon while making dinner and at one point I had to center myself by curling up into a ball on my kitchen floor and I begged God to relieve me of the feelings and images because I didn’t know what else to do!
Like you, I know there is right and wrong, but unlike you, I’ve explored the wrong (not with an LO). Everything terrible you’ve imagined could happen will happen. It only leads to misery for lots of people. I had no idea I had that power… we all do…
But after 7 years??? It makes me want to cry hearing this! I’ll be honest, if everything I feel for LO stays the same or grows, at some point I might think I have to leave the marriage after all… I would do things in correct order though… No affair and I would give myself like 6 months before attempting to date ANYONE. I’ve contemplated leaving the marriage not because of one particular LO, but because of several LO’s and in our 20+ years of marriage I’ve probably spent 15 years in the state of limerence. It gets old.
Gosh… 7 years…. ugh…
It hasn’t actually been 7 years of limerence with this LO! We’ve known each other for 7 years, but the limerence only started a year and a half ago (for me anyway – looking back I suspect it may have started a bit sooner for her). We met 7 years ago when I started at our workplace – I noticed her and was attracted to her from the start, apparently she did the same with me… we harbored little crushes on each other, never spent that much time together or got that close, then about 3 years ago she started finding little reasons to spend more time around me, we started talking and got to know each other a little better, then one day she broke down crying in my office and told me all about the problems in her marriage, I comforted her, she came around more often, our conversations got warmer and more personal. Then one day she started texting me outside of work, and within a week we were texting back and forth all day every day and that’s when the limerence began in earnest for me. After a month of that, I disclosed my feelings to her, she told me she felt the same, we agreed to stop talking and texting out of respect for my wife, NC lasted for about a week, and since then we’ve been cycling in and out of contact with each other – the last 1.5 years has been a roller coaster. I’m sure it could go on for another 7 years or longer if we allow it to by continuing to feed it.
I can’t imagine the stress of having your SO face a potential cancer diagnosis while also going through a limerence episode. My heart goes out to both you and your SO and I’ll be praying for good news for you both.
Oh SJ, that is a nightmare. I hope it gets better. I hope you and your SO get through this together.
Dear LIS, wow, this is so powerful! And sad too, in many different ways. Best of luck moving forward.
A video all limerents should watch:
“How to show your loved one your worth without saying a word” (must watch) Stoicism
Site: Stoic Origins
Have a beautiful blessed weekend.
Dear LiS,
The limerent in me can only imagine the relief you feel from the validation you have received. Ending things for reasons of too-strong feelings is something many of us can only fantasise about here. I know that I do fantasise about this and think that if I got the level of validation you did that I was not bonkers, then maybe I could move on. Also you have the satisfaction of reading the situation absolutely correctly regarding her reactions – getting overwhelmed, shutting down, recovering, then drawing nearer again, then getting too near (especially if 💩 hits the fan in one of your lives), only to repeat the cycle. On some gut level, you knew all of this was the case, but there was just something difficult to accept about it, perhaps the doubt of ‘why is she hurting me when all she needs to do is a quick reassurance’? I think you two were maybe a little bit incompatible in this regard? Its good to know, isn’t it? I might not have worked out if you both had been free to explore the relationship? Can you use this to strengthen resolve?
Secondly, the relief that the suffering is now ‘over’, or on the way to being over, once you hopefully recover must be immense.
Most important of all is the sheer relief from moving in the direction of living authentically with your SO.
Do you feel that uncertainty got dealt with and now you can both move on? I hope so because you will need strength to sustain the new resolution to not speak outside of work. We are all familiar with the ‘feeling okay for a few weeks’ before the withdrawal effect kicks-in and we weaken. But now with uncertainty removed on her feelings you will maybe, hopefully, be able to replay that in your mind and use it to strengthen resolve anew, rather than using it to have “the impossible love” fantasy reel playing in your head that makes you wistful and makes you miss her. I really think you need something to strengthen that resolve. I am so glad that you are looking at your SO with new eyes, and that could certainly be something to work on to strengthen your resolve because you come across like a guy who really gets a huge kick out of love and attention (giving and receiving).
Just some random thoughts and I am so happy or you that you’ve come to this resolution. We are here for you, as you extricate yourself into your new reality. You’ll get lots of comments I imagine that will help – although you are so self aware that I think your in better shape than many of us on here 🙂
All those questions above are rhetorical, btw 🙂 🙂
Hi Bewitched! It’ll be really interesting to see how this feels in the future. On one hand, if uncertainty is “rocket fuel for limerence” then having this degree of certainty should reduce the limerence. On the other hand, we’ve had a legitimately close, caring and supportive relationship for quite awhile now, so it’s going to be hard to just completely end that, even if the reasons are all right. There’s definitely going to be a lot of missing each other and missing the nice feelings with both got from the relationship. But on the other hand, the peace of mind and calmness of not being in this relationship might end up feeling pretty good to both of us. So I guess we’ll just see how it ends up feeling – there’ll probably be some good days and some not so good days, although I don’t imagine any of them will be as bad feeling as the days when she was icing me out and I really didn’t know why.
“I am so glad that you are looking at your SO with new eyes, and that could certainly be something to work on to strengthen your resolve because you come across like a guy who really gets a huge kick out of love and attention (giving and receiving).”
That’s very true! I really like love and romance and affection, giving and receiving. Right now, my SO’s birthday is coming up next week, so I’ve been working on planning a bunch of nice stuff for her – some nice little gestures on her actual bday, a romantic surprise date on the Saturday after her bday, a nice family outing with the kids on Sunday. Doing things like that makes me really happy. Stopping at the store to get her flowers on the way home on a random Tuesday makes me happy. Rubbing her shoulders and her feet makes me happy. Sending her flirty little texts makes me happy. I know I’m really lucky to have a great marriage and the more I lean into that the happier I’ll be.
I’m sad for her and glad for you! Hopefully you can keep up the resolve. Sounds like it was causing her too much pain and she couldn’t take it anymore. It’s definitely a good thing you sent that e-mail!
I’m proud of you, Lost in Space. You did the right thing.
Hi LiS,
just skimmed your post as I‘m in absolute stress, horrible, but just wanted to say wow! I agree with Bewitched, you actually have the chance to end your LE the best possible way, egotistically spoken. She wants you more than you want her, so there must be an end, and you can go back to your happy family-
I just feel for her somehow, she seems to be on the unlucky side in this LE. No caring spouse to go back to. But it will be good for her too, maybe the wake up call to do something about her unhappy marriage.
The important thing now is to realize that this is her problem now and you are the worst person to help her. You cannot help her. If you get caught by your helpers instinct, you will be pulled back.
I wanted to write more but have to stop. business travel next week to the US, actually I‘ll maybe suddenly be in the same timezone as some of you.
LiS, wish you the best!! Stay strong and I‘m happy for you and for your SO to finally have you back entirely.
Hope you are only experiencing work stress, Mila.
That’s the best kind, in the sense that its pretty much under your control
(and its only work, at the end of the day :)))
I hope you work some fun into the equation for your upcoming trip!
Hi Bewitched,
no, work is actually the least stressful, I kind of relax there, it’s everything else that is a bit chaotic and overwhelming.
The upside is, LO gets pushed to the back of my mind.
I saw him on Wednesday for a while, it wasn’t as nice and warm as last time, maybe simply because there wasn’t enough time,- but I think because it always depends solely on me, how I change the atmosphere or not, and I wasn’t completely in the mood.
Afterwards I was a bit sad, especially when I realized that he was being warm in his language, then I put in a bit effort and gave him something back in his language the next day (don’t want to elaborate, but I didn’t see him then, just put it in front of his door when I knew he was away).
And that’s it, a bit of texting but nothing since yesterday. I feel as if the limerence slowly peters out on both sides, which is good, but sad.
I cannot wallow much because of all the stress, but feel sadness in between.
I think he will soon decide to leave, and that will be it.
Should be all for the best, I know.
Wow Mila, losing your credit cards is a worry and a half.
I’d get so uptight I’ wouldn’t be able to think. Of old I used to travel with American Express travelers checks though my accounts are in USA. So no problem. Once someone stole my travelers checks but AE fixed the problem. How fast can you get a credit card with your bank?
Revolut app is a good system to use. You’ve to be aware of the amounts you purchase for foreigners are more frequently checked than locals. Dollars are always welcome!
Hope you solve this inconvenience fast enough so you can have a relaxed trip. Everything will be fine.
Enjoy your trip! And safe return home.
Bon voyage!
Mila, I’m sorry you’re stressed. I hope it gets better. I want to be the first person to say…
Welcome to my country!
Thanks Lovisa,
That’s so nice!!:)
I‘m looking forward actually, my only problem at the moment is that I lost my wallet and won’t have a credit card for the trip😱
Is it possible to pay by PayPal in shops? Probably only in a few, right?
Such bad timing to lose all my cards, and haven’t got ApplePay…
Mila have you considered Revolut? Easy to set up over the weekend and may work for payments with a phone app (getting the plastic card to tap will take a few days)? I used Revolut when I travelled to US (although I had a physical plastic card rather than paying via a phone app). Best part is you can just put as much money as you want into the new account via your online banking via transfer, then only use that while travelling maybe?
I’m pretty sure you need a credit card or cash in most places. Is there any way you can get your card replaced before your trip?
Hi Mila, sorry you are stressed. It’s a familiar feeling I have most of the time, some work related for me. And I would certainly be stressed preparing for a long distance trip with no credit cards.
Hopefully your bank can help advise you. Does your SO have a joint card or something. Bewitcheds suggestion sounds good. Can you still cash in travellers cheques these days ! Showing my age suggesting that ! Ha ha Best wishes with it all and I hope you enjoy USA.
Hi Mila!
This is indeed the best possible way this LE could end, for everyone involved. It’s actually kind of remarkable that a relationship like this, with such intense feelings on both sides, could end in a way where no one got hurt and everyone can feel good about it. I always said that when it ended I wanted LO to be the one to end it, because I never wanted her to feel rejected by me, so I’m happy that it was her who said that we needed to separate. The way it is now, she gets to spend the rest of her life knowing that there was this pretty nice guy she worked with who got to know her really well, fell madly in love with her, wanted to do everything he could to make her happy, and that the only thing that kept us apart was commitment to my marriage. She also gets to feel good about herself for having enough self control and conscience to do the right thing and say it had to end. That was one of the last things I told her on the phone last week, was that I just respected her so much for how much she cares about doing the right thing and not hurting anyone, no matter how much she might want to do otherwise. I hope that always makes her feel good.
I don’t think it was really a case of her wanting me more than I wanted her. I think we both wanted each other very very much – the difference was that I had a lot more to lose than she did. I have a great marriage and happy home with a wonderful SO that I really love a lot, so I always had that acting as a brake on my actions, so that I never really worried about losing control and crossing the line physically. In her case, she really had a lot less to lose, her SO is just so uncaring and her marriage so unfulfilling – really the only thing she had holding her back was her conscience and feeling really bad about the idea of hurting my wife. So it’s understandable that it would be so much more challenging for her to maintain a warm but not overheated relationship with me any longer.
“The important thing now is to realize that this is her problem now and you are the worst person to help her. You cannot help her. If you get caught by your helpers instinct, you will be pulled back.”
That’s very true, and a very difficult thing for me. I want so much to make her happy and make her life better. I’ve spent the last year and a half constantly looking for ways to make her feel good. We were talking about that last week, she was telling me how much she appreciated all the things I did for her, and I told her that every time I did anything for her – whether it was helping her with her homework or giving a little gift or sending her songs or paintings or just listening when she was down – that they were all just different ways of saying “I love you”. Now what she needs from me is to leave her alone and give her back her peace of mind and set her free, so all I can do is see it as an act of love to leave her alone – now the best way for me to show love to her is to let her be and give her back her peace of mind.
I hope all of your stressors settle down, and that you have a great trip to the USA!
If this is truly the direction you both need to go (and I think it is… not that you asked me… Ha!). I believe it’s going to be of upmost importance to cut off the texting and phone conversations. Otherwise you’ll both remain in a dangerous place.
When I had my PA last year it was the texts that kept me hooked. A few days after our first time of physical intimacy I blocked him from my phone and managed to go about three weeks. Then I allowed some partially true work-related excuse to message him again (that I really could have avoided if I wanted to) and, as these things commonly go, we were back in his bed at his place within a week…
We engaged in intimacy a few more times before I confessed to my husband and although I said I wouldn’t text him anymore (or go back to his bed) what I did do is add him to a private chat with my best friend where she hosted conversation and amusement. She facilitated a “word of a day” game where she would post some sort of obscure academic word and we’d each have to write it in a sentence. It was tremendous fun actually and shined on my PA’s cleverness and wit, but it kept an attachment between he and I that was still detrimental to my marriage even though we had stopped seeing each other outside of work. My husband lost patience with me because I continued to be very distracted and eventually he somehow obliterated PA from my phone completely. I wasn’t angry with him for this… I hadn’t realized how I couldn’t cut him off on my own. It’s hard to admit that even now.
My LO and I have each other’s phone numbers and we’ve texted a few times, but it hasn’t been a good experience because he hasn’t fed me what I long for. His responses to me are short and infrequent and quite honestly -and this is quite petty of me- I’m not impressed by his lack of conformity to grammatical rules (to be fair his education didn’t expand much beyond high school so I shouldn’t expect capitalization and proper placement of commas). He’s an older, “seasoned” gentleman and I also sense that he knows how to properly handle life’s fire: Stay warm but don’t get burned!
I would tread very carefully from now on. This is mutual limerence with deeply set neural pathways in each of you flooding you both with yummy dopamine and oxytocin. Stopping the texts and calls is the only way to change this. Don’t give in. You can’t have it both ways and seems you know this, but I get the sense that LO is still struggling and debating it.
Your wife came first… She’s still first… She’ll always be first.
Peace be with you.
Yeah, it sounds like getting back into texting etc. with her would cause her pain….If you can remember that, hopefully that will help keep you from doing it.
Hi everyone who advised me on my lost credit card, thanks so much!
Bewitched, I got something similar to Revolut, called Wise.
Haven’t tried if it works yet, but that could be a solution. Thanks for the great suggestion!
LiS, I just wish you the best and that you both can be at peace now, I wish for your LO that she‘s proud of herself, finishes her school and does something about her unhappy marriage. I wish for you, that you can stay with your decision even when there might be some more troublesome phases in your marriage, and actually, that this was the last LE for you (as I wish it for myself- or would you rather have another one? Then I apologize)!
Lovisa, my bank is very slow and I don’t think I’ll get a replacement card before I have to fly (first to another European country), but I‘ve got this Wise card now.
Also, my colleagues were very nice and several telling me they could pay for me or even give me their other card etc., I‘ll get by somehow.
Imho and Nisor, not sure if travelers cheques are still in use.. but thanks anyway for your concern!
I‘m still stressed, there are also other factors.
I‘ll calm down on the plane, after I‘ll have survived the shock of how much important stuff I’ll not have packed.
No communication with LO since Thursday. If I weren’t so busy I surely would have caved in and texted. But no. I feel this LE is maybe really ending.
I wish you all a much more peaceful Sunday than mine:)!
Take care and relax instead of me, please!
LIS,
May the Lord keep you in his perfect peace.
Courage and strength. Best wishes.
I admire you for doing the right thing, LIS. I don’t mean the “right thing” in a moral or religious sense. I mean the “right thing” in the sense that given your love and devotion for your SO, this was the only option for you. Somewhere else you had written that giving up LO would be like losing a limb, but giving up SO would be like losing all your limbs.
Even without consideration of anyone else’s feelings, you knew which loss would have a greater impact on you.
Build on the joy you have with your SO and family.
I’m grateful to you for your thoughtful descriptions of your feelings toward LO and the conflict you’ve experienced. I learned a lot from you about “the other side of the aisle.”
I wish you all the best.
Thank you SO.Miranda. I remember writing that and I still believe it completely. SO is my true love in this life – no matter how distracted and tempted I’ve gotten, I’ve never completely lost track of that fact, and I’m so grateful that things never went completely off the rails during this LE and that my love story with SO can continue hopefully for the rest of our lives.
I really appreciate your kindness towards me and your desire to understand my experience and my feelings, which can’t be easy given what you’ve gone through. I’ve learned a lot from you as well and your voice has helped remind me how important it is to always put my SO’s feelings first.
How are you and your SO doing these days?
Hello LiS – My husband and I are doing fine. I feel that our relationship is mostly healed, though I still often feel sad. As you know, we’ve been together for 45+ years, and most of those years were really happy years. We rarely talk about the LE anymore. He refers to it as “history,” and even though I don’t feel it as history, I’m trying to let it go.
Although we are mostly doing fine, I did have a difficult day yesterday. I have mentioned that my husband’s LO is someone in our social circle. We had an invitation yesterday to an event at a mutual friend’s home (not LO’s home). I had been nervous for a few days thinking LO would be there. As it turned out, she wasn’t. That should have relaxed me (and it did, to some extent), but the home where we were is where my husband has told me he first had a conversation of any consequence with LO and started noticing her. So it was difficult for me to be in the same space, knowing that’s where the glimmer began.
I haven’t talked to him about it. I felt the upset but I’m trying to not dwell on it. I imagine he also remembered the conversation he had with her in that home, though he didn’t say anything to me.
I am uncomfortable with the idea that spouses should remain in marriages because of vows made, or children shared, or personal history. I want my husband to choose me freely. And I would want the same for you. If you had truly felt that you no longer felt love for your wife and you felt that LO was the right person for you, I would encourage you to pursue what you feel is right for you. But from the very beginning, you have sounded conflicted and it’s clear that you do still love your wife. I do credit your LO for wanting to do the right thing by your wife. LO has had the experience of being cheated on, and it’s admirable that she doesn’t want to inflict that pain on another person.
I hope you’ve had a good weekend with your wife and family. I truly hope she never finds out about LO and you two find your way toward a deeper union.
Hi SO.Miranda,
“I am uncomfortable with the idea that spouses should remain in marriages because of vows made, or children shared, or personal history. I want my husband to choose me freely. And I would want the same for you.”
Well said! Many times over the past year and a half, I’ve done a little thought experiment with myself. I’ve imagined that I had a magic button in front of me. If I pushed it, I’d wake up the next morning next to LO and we’d be married and living in a home together, and SO would be happily living her life somewhere else, and our kids would be happily spending half their time in each house… in this scenario, there was no pain for anyone involved and everyone would be totally fine with the change (because it’s a magic button), but if I push it, I spend the rest of my life with LO instead of SO, and I can never reverse it and my life with SO is done forever. I like this thought experiment because it really boils it down to who I’d rather live my life with – not “do I just want to avoid hurting SO?” or “do I just want to avoid all the pain and unpleasantness of a separation or divorce” or “do I just want to protect my kids from upheaval?”, but simply “would I rather spend the rest of my life with SO or LO?”
I can honestly say that there has NEVER been a time that I would have pushed the button. No matter how bad my limerence, no matter how strong my feelings for LO (and you know how strong they’ve been), in my heart of hearts I have always known that I would choose SO over LO to spend the rest of life with. I feel very sure of that and I always have.
Obviously I’ve done a lot of things over the past year and a half that I’m not proud of. But two things that I am proud of myself for – I’ve never sabotaged my relationship with SO (and in fact have consciously worked hard to strengthen it), and I’ve never mispresented the situation to LO or led her to believe I’d leave SO for her. I know it’s a pretty common scenario for someone in my situation to sabotage their marriage through neglect and picking little fights and stuff (while constantly telling the other woman how bad the marriage is) so that they can eventually end the marriage and move on to the other person, but I never went down that path.
I know that LO would never want to feel that she was responsible for breaking up a marriage or that I would leave my SO for her, but I do think that if I’d made her believe that my marriage was ending on it’s own, independent of her, she would have been happy to eventually take SO’s place. I know that when we first starting getting close, LO was definitely seeking information about how my marriage was doing – she even told me early on that she’d told a friend that she had feelings for a married man, and the friend was like “hey, go head and talk with him, get to know him better, be his friend… you never know how someone else’s marriage is doing, maybe it’s about to fall apart and you can be in the right place at the right time if it does”.
LO told me that when we first started talking all the time, she was kind of dismayed by how often I talked about SO in a positive way and how I obviously loved SO – she told me that it dispelled her hopes of me and her ending up together. And in all the time I was close with LO, I never badmouthed SO to her, never said anything about being unhappy in my marriage. I was always very honest with LO about the fact that while I had strong feelings for her, I truly loved SO and had no intention of leaving SO for LO now or ever, and that our relationship would always be limited to talking on the phone and texting and could never be any more than that. And LO was able to eventually decide for herself that she couldn’t continue with that type of relationship anymore, and freely decided on her own that it needed to end. So I think I can give myself some credit for always choosing SO even if I wasn’t always honest with her, and for always being honest with LO even if I couldn’t choose her.
It sounds like your husband is similar in that he unexpectedly caught feelings for someone else, didn’t handle it correctly from the outset, but ultimately he chose you – it seems clear that you’re the person he truly wants to be with. I hope you are able to feel that way now, that he is freely choosing you because he loves you and wants to spend his whole life with you.
Lost in Space,
” I’ve never mispresented the situation to LO or led her to believe I’d leave SO for her. I know it’s a pretty common scenario for someone in my situation to sabotage their marriage through neglect and picking little fights and stuff (while constantly telling the other woman how bad the marriage is) so that they can eventually end the marriage and move on to the other person, but I never went down that path.”
I’m guessing, but I think it’s more common for people who engage in sideage, for lack of a better word, and with whatever that entails, to have no intention of leaving. They want both people in their lives without having to interrupt their lives.
“LO has had the experience of being cheated on, and it’s admirable that she doesn’t want to inflict that pain on another person.”
SO Miranda
I often wonder if she spared me from myself, and she left because of myself. She also was a victim of infidelity in her previous marriage and I think that if she ever thought I would have pursued that she would have walked away even earlier than she did. While I didn’t have an interest in that pursuit I could see how she wouldn’t be sure of that herself. Being that usually the end game of a man showering a younger woman with attention and veneration is a PA.
But like Miss Marcia said I think it was I just wanting them both. I couldn’t let go of her and I surely didn’t want to end my marriage. Very selfish and unfair of me to both of them. I put one in a spot of (possibly) unwanted adoration and one in the marital corner.
Younger me would have never thought I would have gotten myself in this spot. But here I am.
Hi SO.Miranda,
“I am uncomfortable with the idea that spouses should remain in marriages because of vows made, or children shared, or personal history. I want my husband to choose me freely. And I would want the same for you.”
That’s the best statement I’ve heard from a SO, which immediately takes such a SO out of the category of Victims (sympathetic tears would NOT fundamentally help them). Whether as a singleton, LO, limerent, or SO, our worth comes from within — our own values and personality, independent from anyone outside us, be it LO or SO.
Everyone is the ONLY master of one’s own mind, it’s up to us how to act or react to external personnels and situations, which is ALWAYS out of our control!. I would neither take nor give anyone charitable love in relationship/marriage, that would be “fake” and condescending to receiving party.
If we respect and value ourselves and be content/merry enough, always independent from all external factors/personnels; others will value and love us as well. SOs will willingly to stay, in his/her own accord, the existing relationship/marriage.
🤝
Adam,
“Very selfish and unfair of me to both of them. ”
I can only speak for myself as the single limerent with a married LO … but it was maddening. He gave me a lot of attention and obviously wanted my attention and validation … but he was never going to do anything concrete. So he wasn’t really cheating but still doing something. That weird gray zone where all can be denied, if necessary.
It’s a horrible place to put someone in. Now, your next question I’m sure is … why did you allow yourself to put in that place? Good question. 🙂
Hi LiS , am catching up on LwL.
Big new chapter in your story ! Wow! I got Mila to read out loud your long post and all the comments while I went for a walk. ( in joke)
It’s interesting how at peace you are. And you have a nice weekend planned which always helps.
I wonder maybe it’s resolved the cognitive dissonance in some way. This is how Im feeling that I’m almost two different people who’s thoughts and actions are not aligning. I’m sometimes ‘calculating’ and overthinking my interactions and thoughts with this LE and obviously it’s a big secret and after a while it starts to tire.
I guess it will be challenging for you in due course, as you will still see each other at work. But you have this certainty now in many aspects of your LE and life which many of us here don’t have, that keeps us in limerence limbo. I think you always had that certainty of her feelings for you that you always doubted a few weeks later. Try to remember this conversation you had and maybe bookmark your post above to refer back to when you may need a little reminder from time to time. Just saying 😉. Very best wishes
Hi Imho,
I still haven’t heard my „real“ voice😌! But I‘m happy to read to you whenever you want (I love when someone reads to me).
I’m laying here in bed while my wife takes a nap and I realize what miracles women are. Which made me remember this totally family friendly skit of Jim Gaffigan about the male contribution to life. Its hilarious. You women are miracles.
https://youtube.com/shorts/GRjAvoRPdws?si=LO_h_6eZJcm9qd7r
My sisters of LwL and my brother from another mother; MJ
The gist of today’s sermon was; I’m a work in progress. Although through the sermon I felt the failure of limerence. But the pastor, after the sermon (I have not told him of limerence) told me that my working on my guilt means I am a work in progress. Why does it not feel like that?
frederico
I went to get gas on my way home from church and I saw this super dapper gentleman in nice slacks, collar shirt, tweed waistcoat and pageboy hat and hook-handled umbrella and my immediate thought was; I bet that’s how frederico looks when goes out! 🙂
Hi Adam,
Thanks for the tag and for making me laugh.
I’m glad you’re a work in progress. It seems that your pastor cares about you and it would be good if you could feel less guilty. I think it is linked to your being one of life’s nice guys.
Your compliment is kind. I used to look quite dapper when I was younger and a man-about-town. These days I’m afraid I mostly wear a North Face anorak and a pair of jeans.
My image of you is getting in and out of your truck wearing a stylish stetson type hat, a check shirt and boots that have a touch of wrangler about them. I guess that’s a bit of stereotyping on my part…
Haha frederico I like your image of me. I’ve been honestly trying to put together a “western” outfit for Momma. I do very much like formal western dress for men. I got bolo ties. I haven’t quite picked out a hat yet. I don’t dig actual cowboy hats but I’d like to find something similar.
That you describe me as a cowboy and I’m so much a damn yankee is funny. Thank you for the laugh my friend. You take care of yourself. I’ll be just fine.
Hi Adam,
I really can relate to you and your feelings of guilt. I really struggled to forgive myself of things in my earlier walk with Jesus, and especially during these limerent episodes (before they had a name).
I have been a Christian now for nearly twenty years. I did not grow up in a religious home; whatever I did spiritually, I sought out independently of my family. I want to encourage you to not give up. It really does take time and work for healing and feeling forgiven, especially if you aren’t really sure if He does. There will be painful times when God shows us our need and our imperfection — the good news is that in my experience He is patient with us to figure things out, and give us the time we need to work it out. ❤️
I am trying to communicate very internal, spiritual experiences that I have had; I hope it’s making sense, or speaking to you in some way! One of the best pieces of advice that was given to me is to follow God’s peace, no matter what. It’s a skill that takes time and practice, with Bible time, church time, deep reflection, worship and prayer, but it personally has guided me in all of my big life decisions. With time, you should start to feel literal peace in your mind and soul. You really seem to be on the right track, Adam, even if you don’t “feel” it yet.
Ok…. so who wants to guess what I look like?! 🤪
Thank you for above reply. I do indeed struggle with my remorse. I am glad that I have so many people here to relate to. Thank you for your support. I am trying to come to grip with religion and my own efforts. I would very much like to find this peace you speak of.
Dunno why but I see you as my first crush Mrs Cleaver. Maybe its the nurse part of your name and June was always trying to make the peace. Always trying to keep the peace like you do dear lady.
Adam, I meant to get back to you about faith and limerence earlier but I was distracted by my own issues with it… 🙂
The difference between your and my interfacing with the Faith are the sacraments: I have them and you don’t. So how does this affect us differently in relation to “sin” and feeling better? Here is what I figured out:
I have never NOT felt reprieve of sin when I “engage with God” through either the sacraments of reconciliation or the Eucharist. Some days I feel good for hours, on bad days I make it to the end of the Mass (or out of the confessional)… but regardless I’m always allotted at least a moment’s worth of peace and peace, which I define as the absence of any desire and complete and whole balance and fulfillment of being, is the ENTIRE purpose and fulfillment of Jesus Christ. If you ever get a chance to look at the words of Catholic or Orthodox Mass rituals you see the word “peace” all over the place… from the beginning “May the peace of the Lord be with you always…” to the moment the priest says “Lord Jesus Christ, who said to your Apostles: Peace I leave you, my peace I give you, look not on our sins, but on the faith of your Church, and graciously grant her peace and unity in accordance with your will”.. and of course the very ending with “Go in peace”.
I go to church nearly everyday because I need the rituals of peace within the Mass. I need to remember and experience Jesus coming down again and again and reminding us -reminding me- that only through sacrificial love (and all true love requires ongoing surrender of selfish desires) will I find any peace on earth and that true and eternal peace will not come on this side of death. We are made in the image of God, but we are not God and we are imperfect. We sin because ultimately, we’re trying to be like God and experience everything as if we could become God. In secular terms we are pattern seekers which creates an intense desire for novelty not seen in other species. We desire many things… some of us desire intense romantic and erotic intimacy with others outside of our pair-bond… limerence!
We can’t be cured on this side of death. When Catholics talk about this definitive reality we sometimes reflect back to the great 4th century theologian and philosopher, St. Augustine of Hippo, when he wrote “You have made us for yourself of Lord, and our hearts are restless until they rest in You”.
Ain’t that the truth?
I’ve looked at this from a secular/scientific perspective too. I read an academic journal (Journal of the Cognitive Science of Religion) about rituals and what they do/how they work. One finding I read is that by participating in rituals people tend to feel a decrease sensitivity to self.
As I recall it was also discovered that the more elaborate and complicated the ritual, the stronger the affect on the sense of self-centeredness.
Part of getting over limerence is being less self-oriented and staying focused on our loved ones that rely on us, specifically our spouses and our children. Is it coincidence that we get bombarded about this time and time again in Holy Scripture? Not a chance! And as a Catholic I get to experience it through the sacraments, which attempt to cut through the time/space continuum and brings “Jesus” (aka peace) to moment I’m living through. I have yet to find anything that works as well to relieve me of my sins (desire and restlessness).
May the peace of the Lord be with you always!
And with your Spirit.
Very well written SJ. You are are a much better Catholic than I am.. 😇
“Part of getting over limerence is being less self-oriented and staying focused on our loved ones that rely on us, specifically our spouses and our children.”
This is very true. It is only through the grace of my wife and sons that I can leave this behind me. Try to learn from this and guard against it in the future. I wish that I could fix it. Make it right. But I can’t can I? As you said “we can’t be cured this side of death”. So we just have to keep working on ourselves and make it right by others through our actions. Thank you for the detailed comment SJ. I may not be Catholic but I appreciate the time that you took to comment. Maybe one day I will find this peace.
@SJ,
I was trying to reply to your posts, as I read a few of them and liked the mix of Religion and Eros. A potent mix for me!
It seems you’re saying do your best, we’re all flawed beings. I’m a lapsed Catholic and have pretty much left the church. But still look for spiritual support. I think I am a spiritual person. I’d rather send out loving kindness, than ill will. I try and regulate my own moods and take responsibility for how I’m feeling. Feeling like a victim is not fun!
I’m not able to do long posts atm. My mind drys up. I wanted to convey I enjoyed the story of your LE’s and yr husbands reaction. Your husband sounds pretty cool.
I have Friday drinks after work, which is a way for me to let off some steam. My wife is pretty tolerant of my quirks. We’re still friends. Though something is missing in my life, though not sure how to rectify this situation.
“Working on my guilt means I am a work in progress. Why does it not feel like that?”
@Adam,
If I had to take a guess, I would say because you probably don’t feel like you are living up to being the Husband and Father you actually are being. I think we are all works in progress. The Christ-like standard of perfection cannot be achieved in this life. Even if we are batting life out of the ballpark and doing everything right, that’s still not good enough or perfect enough for God’s standards. Because we are human. We’re just supposed to be as Christ-like as we can be while we’re here. God already knows your heart. You’re doing the best you can. In marriage and family life, there will always be issues. If it wasn’t LO, it would have been something else and it could have been way worse. You just never know.
After LO left the building last year, I was so devastated, I almost quit. It took everything in me not to break down right there at work. Seeing her name removed from her cubicle made my heart sink. I remember feeling so down and out, almost cancelling the appointment I had made with my Priest a month earlier. (Which was the day of my birthday)(Not even knowing at the time how much I would actually need him in a month)
I remember walking into the meeting in tears and cried almost the whole time I was in there. Almost feeling inconsolable. I remember telling him I was hoping I would maybe be able to wish LO a happy birthday because they posted my name and hers together for Valentine birthdays, on a calendar by the office. Maybe hoping I could finally make a breakthrough with her. She wasn’t supposed to leave and I couldn’t stop saying that to him. Then he said something. He told me I shouldn’t take the matter so personally because her leaving most likely wasn’t because of me. He said try to consider LO and what would truly be the best thing for her and what would make her the happiest. At the time, I was in a really bad place. Trying to wrap my brain around what was best for LO, I felt like I wasn’t making the progress I wanted. So nothing mattered. My limerence was off the charts and the whole LE was nothing but a failure. I was living in a fog. Yet the seed of what the Priest said to me that day never left my mind.
Recently I was in her parking lot and saw LO leaving work one night. She was with a Friend. I saw the 2 of them talking. I was watching her cute little strut and could just barely make out some of her adorable facial expressions that always make me fall off the furniture. I could tell she was smiling and seemed so happy that day. It was then in that moment, in my head, I heard the Priests words speaking to me again like a Holy presence. “What would make LO the happiest?” Seeing her that day felt like the answer. I only had to wait almost a whole year to get it.
Guess what I’m trying to tell you is you probably don’t have all the answers you need right now but in time you most likely will. I don’t think any of us limerents will ever get our brains wrapped completely around our lovely LOs, because we probably didn’t see them coming. (I think you remember that feeling) It must be God’s will. Making us/you a work in progress.
“I don’t think any of us limerents will ever get our brains wrapped completely around our lovely LOs, because we probably didn’t see them coming. (I think you remember that feeling)”
I think I remember how I felt when I met my SO actually, it felt something like this (PSB: Did you see me coming): https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=2Hy4bT0ESfc
And don’t believe Neil Tennant when he starts singing about fate, no such thing!
Adam,
The reason you still feel guilt and have no peace in God’s presence is because you have not accepted or believed that His sacrifice on the cross was sufficient to absolve you of sin, therefore erasing all guilt, shame
and pain . When He said “It’s finished “ on the Cross it meant His work on earth for the remission of sin was completed. And there’s no need for other sacrifices because His work on the Cross is perfect. You do not need to add or substract anything to it. His will is done . So you’re in argument with yourself, because once you give your sins, guilt and shame to Him, He remembers it no more! That is grace! Not of our own doing but because His perfect work on the Cross!
Hope and pray The Lord gives you understanding and wisdom to accept without any doubt His work on the Cross. Then, only then you’ll have His peace. It isn’t Jesus and… this or that, anything added to His perfect work is blasphemy. He’s already set you free by shedding his blood as the sacrifice on the Cross. All you need to do is accept or reject it. As simple as that.
As always courage and strength to you and family. Bear hugs.
“you have not accepted or believed that His sacrifice on the cross was sufficient to absolve you of sin”
I think that you are spot on here Nisor. I guess I need to understand why I don’t know how to accept it. Or why I don’t think that it is enough.
Dear Adam,
If His sacrifice on the cross for the remission of sins is not enough, there’s nothing greater He can do!
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son , that WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM should not perish but have everlasting life.”
This is the gospel encapsulated in one verse.
“I need to understand why I don’t know how to accept it.”
This is a good question to ask your Pastor. Be frank and tell him this , so he can lead you to pray the sinners prayer. It takes time to get to a level of understanding the miracle of salvation. It only took me 38 years… and then another 22 years of studying the Bible to understand I have to congregate ! Better late than never. Relax, it takes time.
Have a pleasant evening.
“Seeing her that day felt like the answer.”
On her last day at work, I finally felt the same. It was towards the end of the work and and I wasn’t feeling good about the day ending. I was sitting in an office chair just doing nothing, really and I could see her office from where I was sitting. It was summer so she had her daughter, and a friend of her daughter’s with her. In June, in the south, so it was hot. Her gentleman friend came in and talked to her and her daughter. After 15 minutes or so he left. Then he came back again, and he had brought them all snow cones. And I was like “dammit I gotta like this guy!” Because anyone that spoke to her or her daughter for any length of time knew they both loved snow cones. It was in that moment of their happiness I knew that I had to let this go. For both of them. And I knew then I had to let it be. For their happiness and for me to move on and be the husband and father I needed to be.
I like how SJ mentioned that we need to be less focused on ourselves and focus on our loved ones, to be able to see past limerence. If we focus on the ones that we care about and are dependent on us the easier it is to let go of limerence and let LO move on in their lives as well. Good advice.
@MJ,
I read your posts and I feel for you (ditto Gallant).
It’s a real thing waking up at 3am with this person on your mind and there is no real way to alleviate the situation.
It’s a shame you, Gallant, Adam and I and others can’t meet up in a bar somewhere. (a few limerent ladies would be good too). I promise I won’t hit on the ladies. Though I’m sure there would be some flirting!!?
Thank you to all those who share their stories and experiences on this site. Helps us bear our own crosses.
“It’s a shame you, Gallant, Adam and I and others can’t meet up in a bar somewhere. (a few limerent ladies would be good too). I promise I won’t hit on the ladies. Though I’m sure there would be some flirting!!?”
@Grego
I agree. There are a lot of good people on here, that I wish lived closer so we could meet up.. Imagine the limerent stories we could bounce around. We’d easily be around till closing time. And some of us probably needing a ride home.
Well… who wants to say where they live? Maybe some of us are closer than we think 🤔
Yeah me around woman and alcohol? Not unless Momma is with me. Though I have a feeling Dame Marcia or Miss Lovisa would keep me in line too.
And I would definitely need a ride.
Cue the marathon of songs about drinking over a woman. I’ll get us started with one of my favorites….
Drinking Them Beers — Thopall Glaser
https://youtu.be/8Zp5EIq4-2E?si=lA0JdlQSQCtfFelN
LN,
“Well… who wants to say where they live? Maybe some of us are closer than we think 🤔”
At one time, LwL had a private forum where you could discuss pretty much anything. It’s gone now. Some posters set up a Discord server that people could join but I don’t have the details.
If posters on LwL have actually met up, they haven’t posted about it. If people really want to exchange more information, I’d recommend the Discord route. Setup a Discord account and post your screen name here. If people want to contact you, they can.
Interesting! I had to look up June Cleaver up because that show, though I’ve heard if it, was not a common one for me to watch growing up. I’d say she resembles a grandma of mine bit. She could be a relative… Nice try! 😆
You had to look up June Cleaver…Okay, now I feel old! lol
@Serial Limerent
My favorite show when I was young was “Matlock” so … who’s feeling old now?! 😃
@LE
I wish I knew what you were talking about when you say Discord account… this community is literally the extent of my social media 🙄 But thanks for the tip!
I think you wrote somewhere that you were born in 1983–that puts you a decade younger than me 😉
@Adam
You’re right, better to keep it in LwL. With that said, I am thoroughly enjoying a homemade mimosa with fresh squeezed oranges, and beautiful sunny skies 😎
Im kinda curious about a mimosa. I love gin and orange juice but I’ve never drank champagne by itself. But maybe I’d like mimosas. Maybe we can have brunch together someday. I wanna really try eggs Benedict
@Adam
Champagne and orange juice is pretty delicious 😋 I used Barefoot Bubbly extra dry and some oranges a neighbor brought me. Half champagne, half OJ.
Yep, if you and Momma ever wanna come to the West coast for brunch, I’ll be here! 🌞
(FYI I do not drink like most folks do … I may have 2 to 4 drinks a month, and I have never been drunk. And I have only branched out in the last couple years to try anything alcoholic because dealing with LO#2 made me feel a little crazy) 🥂
I have tried a kind of white wine before (not sure what kind) but not champagne. Which is just carbonated white wine? Anyway OJ makes every thing better. Especially fresh OJ.
You seem to be like Momma before she decided to go sober in 2019; she would only have a few drinks a month. Whereas me, if I liked mimosas I’d have 2-4 while we had brunch. I find that alcohol dulls my limerent brain just as much as my rational brain. Turn on my Xbox and play a game and my mind is totally NOT occupied on what it shouldn’t. I had some vodka and sprite last night. And then had a few drinks of soju before I went to bed. Not as good as sake but it’s still good.
Adam,
I work part time in a distillery. You know how Starbucks employees get free coffee?
I get free booze. So far, I’ve built a gaming computer, picked up a gaming monitor, house repairs, and an IMB Selectric typewriter bartering with whisky.
Bartering booze doesn’t work often but when it does, it works really well. People either really like it or they don’t.
I could be your new best friend!
@Adam
Be careful, Adam! I see a lot of people with liver failure due to alcoholism … I would hate for you to be anywhere near that in your lifetime. Have you ever considered talking to a doctor about your condition? 🤔
L.E.
How nice a fellow gamer. Ive been a lifetime gamer but I’ve always gamed on consoles since Atari. I’ve yet to PC game. Right now I’m taking a break from the grinding that is Warframe and am playing through Dead Space 2 right now.
I have no idea if our PC is even viable to game on as old as it is. But man it’d be a blast to game together someday. Downing some vodka and firing up the old 360 or PS3 for one of my favorite eras of gaming is a good time to me.
Limerent Nurse
Yes my primary doctor and my cardiologist is aware of my habits. I’ve done good regarding my heart condition by loosing weight and quitting smoking. But drinking habits are harder for me to break.
Have to vent and rant a bit, mostly about myself.
I just cannot endure anymore that my LO doesn’t decide if he‘ll stay at my workplace and town or move away. I mean, he cannot decide for ages. He left work last summer for his new work place, but still lives here for a trial period, and since then he simply had no idea what to do(says he).
This is the main reason for my limerence, before that I wasn’t limerent for him, we were just friends and colleagues, he even got on my nerves from time to time.
So, it would really solve my problems if he would FINALLY decide!
If he stays, fine, I’m pretty sure I can go back to normal with him. If he leaves, sad but also fine, I can live without him here. But this hanging in the air drives me truly crazy.
And then he‘s so uptight, I can never talk to him about it. He never talks about personal stuff, I always have to start it, he likes it when I do, but he cannot really express himself on a personal level, at least that’s what I think.
Honestly, I don’t know how his SO copes, or most probably they are both like that and just don’t talk about any feelings or their relationship or whatever, they just sit it out, maybe.
But sometimes I think I‘m about to explode, and then I start some talk or text chat about it.
Now I did it again and of course I shouldn’t have done. I mean he‘s under a lot of pressure to decide and I add to it. I feel bad about it. But I just cannot stand this superficial texting anymore.
I just want to back off and leave him alone and distance myself. But then I come over as petulant, and he’s my friend in a difficult situation.
I‘ll be traveling in 3 days and then it‘ll be easier. I hope.
At the moment I just feel like a whiny nagging person, and I don’t like him for it, if that makes sense (I mean, I‘m not running after him. He‘s actually the one who started the daily texting months and months ago . He wants a lot of contact, but he doesn’t want to talk about important stuff. And I‘m not made for that.)
Hi Mila,
It sounds exhausting. This frustration will lead to the limerence endgame, perhaps. That point when the interaction and thoughts is mostly just too anxiety-filled to be enjoyable in any way whatsoever. I had a glimpse of this myself recently where I was really not looking forward to seeing my LO again. It makes me wistful for the ‘good old days’ of euphoria and rapture. But those days are gone forever, i think.
Its all part of the process, I guess, one of those signs of progress that really doesnt feel like it. Travels will be a great remedy, grab it with both hands!! Buon viaggio!!
Hi Bewitched,
Thanks, yes, I might be on the finishing straight here. He‘s a very good and special person, but with limits, and I always invest him in my mind with that little bit more quality and emotion than he‘s got, and get frustrated.
Also, I don’t seem to be able to sit out my limerent episodes by myself, I always have to bother the LOs with my emotional mess at some point, then they don’t know how to react to this and just endure it without really answering. I would like to act mature one time and fight it out with myself while staying amiable with LO, but that ship has sailed again.
Oh well, if it means I move forward, so be it!
I ranted to him about my emotions about his indecision yesterday a bit, and he gave me(understandably) vibes that that makes it even more difficult for him, so now I stopped and don’t plan on very much contact during my trip, and when I come back, he‘s hopefully decided.
Bewitched, you feel on the home stretch too?
I wish you good luck with it!
Dear Mila,
I honestly don’t know where I am until we meet f2f, but its definitely developing.
To be honest, mine is one of those low-level LEs. I mean, I never ever initiate contact, every virtual exchange we have either had other people copied in or it is 100% work, no niceties. I don’t know how it would even be possible to work with someone and pare things back any more than they already are. This seems to be a mutually agreed thing which is unspoken. I respect him, he respects me and we both respect our marriages. That’s all clear enough, without any disclosure or hints (weirdly). Although there have been large signs (I can’t go into them) on his side in the past that I am important to him.
The issue is when we see one another, he’s in a spin, then I get in a spin. Then it takes months to regain composure but it is frustrating to keep going over all of this and I know that I’ll probably snap out of it at some stage. The main thing stopping me, I feel, is the fact of him providing distraction from worrying and anxiety on my part. This is like Snowpheonix’s ‘phantom’ by the way without absolutely any input from him. Distraction over what you may ask? To which I’ll respond ‘You name it, I’ll worry about it!’. LOL. Perhaps this is why I feel in such a mood for having a laugh right now because this also eases the mood. Laughter is better medicine than limerence – discuss!
@Bewitched,
Phantom is NOT a distraction, but one’s IMAGINATION, CREATIVITY and INSPIRATION. Dante’s phantom helped him write “Inferno”; Berlioz’s phantom inspired him to compose “Symphonie Fantastique”… It is behind uncountable creative masterpieces throughout history.
Cherish your phantom no matter in which stage of life you are, only keep clear distinctions between phantom and LO. LO (or even SO) is not ours, but a Phantom (sprung from LO) IS always ours and hopefully will not be taken away or killed by any circumstances.
It’s NOT Desires, but expectations bring one “perpetuated” sufferings in reality.
Keep your Phantom alive! 👻
@Nisor,
Thank you for Stoic links, I’ve been reviewing my learned lessons lately and feeing better and stronger. I enjoy this guy’s voice — so mesmerizing!
🫂
@Mila,
I’m very sorry for what you have to go through nowadays… we are pretty much in the same boat but I see you’re experiencing much more pains because your mind is unable to “direct/control” how the situation will turn out….
I’ve already accepted the worst for an outcome in my case — LO will be gone realistically, nothing I could do about it; and there would be no friendship (my desired and valued kind) between us remaining. Ces’t la vie! But the Phantom is very much alive inside me, which gives me a lot of courage to face unknowns….
I hope you find more peace, your situation is not that DIRE at all… Enjoy your trip in USA. If you’ll come to my town… welcome! 🤗
“Also, I don’t seem to be able to sit out my limerent episodes by myself, I always have to bother the LOs…”
Mila, this is me also. I read the stuff about not disclosing feelings and understand it, but then when the pressure in my head gets too much, I have to get it out. I feel that otherwise it just gets worse. I also strive for authenticity, so all this ‘holding feelings in’ argues with that. In my case I didn’t see talking about – some of – my feelings as a risk to anyone’s SO (I framed the feelings as related to friendship instead of L, but am not sure if he saw through it). It would be a different beast if I suspected reciprocation and was trying to start something. I hope I would be able to resist then.
I really admire those who have the willpower to disclose nothing for years even! And I could really feel the pain of Gallant for example, and the struggle inside his head. I would have needed to let it out somehow.
Maybe we just accept that this is how we are? And if we want to better ourselves, we try to find the classiest, most discreet way of unburdening our feelings?
Hi Trifles,
„but then when the pressure in my head gets too much, I have to get it out. I feel that otherwise it just gets worse. I also strive for authenticity, so all this ‘holding feelings in’ argues with that. In my case I didn’t see talking about – some of – my feelings as a risk to anyone’s SO (I framed the feelings as related to friendship instead of L, but am not sure if he saw through it)“
Exactly like me. It’s all in the context of friendship, but I think we both know that there‘s more than friendship, he‘s just either not acknowledging it fully because it wouldn’t fit into his view of the world, himself and me, or he doesn’t want to talk about it directly. He‘s a very closed-off person.
I kind of accepted that I need to get it out even if it’s unfair or unnecessary on him. If he cannot cope or doesn’t like it, I can’t do much about it, at least I can move on, and it seems that I need him to know where I stand to be more at peace myself.
I don’t have your story in my head, sorry, but I wish you the best! It’s going to get better! I think this could have been my last honest rant to him, I‘m on a home stretch.
It’s not that I recommend venting to LO, mostly it’s not a good idea, but sometimes I just cannot help myself. I wouldn’t recommend giving in to every impulse to disclose though, and I resisted many opportunities.
No worries about remembering my story. But my LE is(was?) long distance and I also had to go out with a rant in order to free myself. Save yourself! (Isn’t that also the wisdom here on LwL?) Sounds like you might have also gotten enough closure to be freed of LO soon (fingers crossed!).
“…I think we both know that there‘s more than friendship, he‘s just either not acknowledging it fully because it wouldn’t fit into his view of the world, himself and me, or he doesn’t want to talk about it directly.”
I’m also quite surprised if my LO was surprised to find out that I had feelings. I mean, our texting started off with flirting, and then because of his ambiguousness, turned into some kind of friendship. What did he expect? 😆
Sometimes you may not have to. Pretty sure my LO has known for a long time and I haven’t said a word. I’m too frickin’ obvious at times, lol…..
My intuition tells me that disclosure would end my marriage. Actually… not just intuition but experience! Disclosures are how I entered into my two greatest relationships: a five year relationship with a 7 month engagement tagged on the end and my 21 year marriage… By the time I’m ready or incapable of containing my limerence just to myself I am confident it’s mutual… I do think my LO has some interest in me but I’m still invested in my marriage so disclosure would likely be disastrous. But there are days like yesterday that I nearly cry from the intensity of desires…. Fortunately I have more days like this one where I do find peace in my husband’s companionship. I envy that you can be open and authentic!
Hi Mila. I agree with what Bewitched says. It does seem like you may have entered the home stretch, plus I think that if now you are not deriving any or less happy thoughts from LO, you would be much more inclined to move past this LE. So in this sense, it looks like real progress! Seeing LO on a regular basis would be stressful for you, I am sure, I wish you strength to navigate those interactions. I would advise you to try and stop seeking your LO. This will work well, though it may be hard for you, as you see LO on a regular basis. Good luck!
Hi ABCD,
Thanks for your concern and advice! I don’t seek LO at all at the moment, I avoid him.
I just wrote a post to Lost in Space about the current situation.
It’s all about his life decision now. Either way (him staying or not), I think the LE will be over as soon as he decided (or a bit later, but it will be the end, I‘m sure, because uncertainty will end).
How are you doing meanwhile?
Hi Mila. Yes, totally agree with you. I hope that your uncertainty element resolves itself very soon. I can see how frustrating this would be for you.
On a lighter note, your LO seems to be a lot like me. I am also very introverted, keep my feeling bottled up, and come across as vulnerable, in general, and not only in LE.
I am doing better, I feel, thanks for asking. I have noted that she does made efforts to seek and reach out. Perhaps doing so makes her feel good. Normally, this would put me on cloud nine, but the response is more muted now (still feel good, though). Overall, I am determined to maintain resolve and move along.
Will let you all know how it goes.
Sounds good, ABCD! Sounds like progress to me!
If you think you are a bit like my LO, would you also not talk at all about your feelings with your LO if she did? And why?
Interesting to think that my LO might, like you, have his own thoughts on the side (like you here on LwL), but never reveal them to me.
Hi Snow,
How are you doing? That day of saying goodbye is approaching fast, may 8… a day to remember for years to come. But you have to be stoic enough to take it with courage and head high, be thankful for what you had, enjoyed, and look forward to the future with an open mind. Nothing stays still in this world of continuous evolution, we have to be prepared not to take things for granted; a little shake somewhere and everything comes crumbling down. So being swift as the wind is the best attitude, take me to where it blows … I’ll just flow with it. Fighting against destiny is useless, so is taking a flight mode or freeze mode, flowing with the current is wiser. Time changes you, shapes you and molds you, is a process of growing and becoming experienced. Is doing one’s best with whatever situation we find ourselves in. I have realized that every single change was for the better, and there are temporary stops that can delay you in your chartered course, but they are just stepping stones to get you to your ultimate goal, aim, dream.
Yes, this man with the Stoics videos has an assuring, melodic tone of voice. And very good teaching too. I spent my youth reading
Stoicism, philosophy etc, and wasn’t living my life as a normal youngster, not aware of what was going around me, buried in the books. I read Plato’s Republic and everything that had to do with Socrates, I’m a great admirer of Socrates. I liked he questioned everything, never ending conversations. Seneca, Marcos Aurelius, Cicero etc, but my mind has no more memories of it, my mind is getting tired, vey tired with age. There are three persons I admire the most in this world, first is Jesus, Socrates and Mahatma Gandhi, in that order.
After lunch, I’d spend my time at Hallmarks book stores at the philosophy section, and as I searched, few times men would sneakily approach to establish conversations and try to get my telephone number. Ha. Back then were no digital, you know, so I’d give a number of a public telephone booth that was near by. These are memories that popped out as I write you.
My telephone needs change, it’s playing too many tricks on me. And I hate changing to new telephone because technology keeps advancing and I’m not up to date with it, it gets me very distressed every time I have to change telephones. But change we must…
You keep yourself calmed
and keep on doing your meditation program and your piano, your vegetables etc , and extrovert as much as you can, to avoid frustration and anxiety. You’re the sphinx that rises from the ashes, don’t ever forget that.
Best wishes and hugs. 💪🏽💪🏽💪🏽
Alone
Maya Angelou 1928 –2014
Lying, thinking
Last night
How to find my soul a home
Where water is not thirsty
And bread loaf is not stone
I came up with one thing
And I don’t believe I’m wrong
That nobody,
But nobody
Can make it out here alone.
Alone, all alone
Nobody, but nobody
Can make it out here alone.
There are some millionaires
With money they can’t use
Their wives run round like banshees
Their children sing the blues
They’ve got expensive doctors
To cure their hearts of stone.
But nobody
No, nobody
Can make it out here alone.
Alone, all alone
Nobody, but nobody
Can make it out here alone.
Now if you listen closely
I’ll tell you what I know
Storm clouds are gathering
The wind is gonna blow
The race of man is suffering
And I can hear the moan,
’Cause nobody,
But nobody
Can make it out here alone.
Alone, all alone
Nobody, but nobody
Can make it out here alone.
Hi Nisor,
Thank you for your sincere care and encouragement in my last steps to cross the final finishing/death line to enter unknowns…
Despite of hours of daily Stoicism reminders, peachy depiction of the unknown future, focused tutoring, rigorous cardio workout, and slow chewing and digestion of 🎶, my body is actually sinking down into cotton sheets, more every morning, entering its depressive state… I feel it in my bones… that’s how calm and heavy I am…
Unlike in the past, this time I will not find any distractive ways to “run away” from unbearable sadness and grief; the only way to get through it and come alive is to fully experience and process it them physically, emotionally, and mentally…
I tutor almost every evening to a lovely sister and brother (besides Romeo), keeping my body and mind occupied. I do not drink alcohol at all or indulge in sweets (some nuts and popcorns), still eat healthy, practice piano, workout, meditate, and sleep — my dreams were quite turbulent lately, I guess, because a lot of negative emotions are perhaps repressed down during waking hours….
You take a good care of yourself and enjoy your connection with John!
🫂
Hi Snow,
“Nobody, but nobody can make it out here alone.”
No we can’t , that is , being alone. We need connection, we need each other. We need the warmth, the understanding, the support from someone to stand with us on a bad day.
I don’t understand when you say ‘ your body is actually sinking down into cotton sheets ‘, Is it you’re losing weight or feel light like a twirling paper in the wind? Not sure what you mean.
Nope, there’s no place to run to when certain circumstances come to us. One has to go through it like an ever vigilant soldier of war lest it come back later to damage you. Confronting difficult situations is not fun, it takes wisdom, courage, purpose and strength of both mind and body. I wish I was near to stand by you on these difficult times for you. It is said it’s better an unknown neighbor near than a family member far away.
It is of great importance to take good care of the body. You owe it to yourself. After all , the body pays with ailments for all our mental grievances. It’s all connected, body, mind and soul.
My phone is out of control, don’t know how this sms would look like..
Stay strong and relax . It’s not the end of the world. Tomorrow will be another day! Like Scarlet O hará used to say on Gone with the wind. I’m going to bed now.💤😴💪🏽
Hi Snowpheonix,
I read your response yesterday, though I can’t find it now. So, I’ll just go from memory. You forensically dissected my post and some of what I wrote came across as hyperbolic.
Some of my earlier posts were about my situation with the historical LO, which is the one I’ve written about on this forum.
It’s true I got caught in a Limerence situation and really did not know how to handle it. I was young and I put this woman on a pedestal. It’s a convoluted story which I really don’t wish to rehash. But basically, can be summed up as ‘it is what it is’.
Now, I have some strategies and tools to work with and alleviate said ‘suffering’. Sometimes that is just how it is. Trauma happens to people and you cannot change the actual circumstances though with work and careful patience and if you’re lucky actual insight, you can come to a different conclusion or meaning about how those experiences impacted you.
I read you in a recent post of yours, you talk about the ‘Phantom’. This is the same as the Jungian Shadow, I presume? I’m interested in the shadow/phantom and a way to access all parts of ourselves, without worrying in a neurotic way about how people perceive me. I no longer care really.
Some of my earlier posts possibly, I was trying to look cleverer than I actually am! 😂😂
As they say in Zen, bright or dim all can practice and achieve awakening! (at least in theory anyway).
You touched on a point about putting up with our circumstances and possibly not living your best life etc. Why do people put up with less-than-ideal circumstances? I/you used the term ‘Eros’. Which I mean romantic/sexual feeling or love. I’m not resigned to my situation and I’m not feeling ‘hopeless’ as the tone of my post that you replied to may have implies. Though I will admit it’s a challenge I need to meet.
Btw I use the term Eros from a South Korean born German philosopher I’ve come to admire Byung-Chul Han. He’s books are very thin, so no huge volumes to get through. I’ve read ‘the agony of Eros’ and ‘the expulsion of the other’. There’s some stuff on youtube about him. He’s written a lot of these thin books, critiquing the modern age we live in.
Basically I don’t believe in any perfectionism in this world. And it’s a kind of narcissistic ruse, perpetrated by social media, celebrities etc. Showing off their perfect houses, holidays, bodies, partners etc It’s all so dumb! Ok, no more ranting.
Our own words can be misleading. I’ll look at an older post I wrote and think, gee, I wouldn’t put it like that now. I write something as accurately as possible, but it’s somehow doesn’t properly convey what I really feel or want to say. For e.g. I felt in a victim state at some stage because of things that happened. Though I’m not a victim and have tools to alleviate that condition. I certainly believe in a disciplined attitude. If you want to meditate, you have to put aside the time to meditate and also study the teachings.
I enjoy your posts and hope you stay well.
Gassho 🙏🙏
Hi Credo,
Here is my last post:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/coffeehouse-limerence-bootcamp/#comment-55747
Forensic dissecting Q & A is my responsive style in my serious dialogues with anyone here. If you have a thin cheek or weak stomach, please tell me before I dive in any further discussions.
As a semi Stoic and Buddhist, I can take straightforward points, as long as they’re NOT insults (still have some residual cptsd wounds to heal). I also stay away from moralizing comments or judgments.
Nisor,
“I don’t understand when you say ‘ your body is actually sinking down into cotton sheets ‘, Is it you’re losing weight or feel light like a twirling paper in the wind? Not sure what you mean.”
I’m an experienced meditator who can acutely sense when my energy/Qi (has its own circulation lines through the whole body like blood veins) flows strongly, be stuck, weakened, or pulled away. So “sinking down into Cotten sheets” feels like some unknown force was pulling my legs down into sheets, making it “fatigued” (a slight aching feeling) — a sign for my physical depression. No words can accurately describe it making others to know what it is, unless you feel it yourself, like toothache.
“Nope, there’s no place to run to when certain circumstances come to us. One has to go through it like an ever vigilant soldier of war lest it come back later to damage you. “
You’re complete right here, no place and no one else one can run to when encountering our mental and emotional challenges, just like dealing with toothache.
“I wish I was near to stand by you on these difficult times for you. It is said it’s better an unknown neighbor near than a family member far away.”
Thank you for your caring heart, i know I could run to you if you were nearby. Our COO also has the same idiom about neighbors and family members. I don’t believe blood ties are stronger than friendship; the former is given without one’s choice; the latter is built through one’s efforts — much rewarding!
“It is of great importance to take good care of the body. You owe it to yourself. After all , the body pays with ailments for all our mental grievances. It’s all connected, body, mind and soul.”
I have rarely “abused” my body with known material “vices”. But my mind/thoughts/emotions, while being negative or occasionally uncontrollable, affects my body detrimentally. The mental stress is the way more powerful to weaken one’s body and drives it possibly to cancers. I’m very psychosomatic, and my lymphoma has attested such correlated body-n-mind inflictions.
When I was able to speak up my true mind and emotions (particularly disagreeable ones) here bravely, it automatically strengthened my Qi’s flowing — no sinking legs or thighs afterwards while waking up….
Thank you for your tireless encouragement and support for me and others here! 🫂
I have to say – for someone who doesn’t think we should text each other anymore, LO has sure been texting me a lot recently… There have been 7 work days since we agreed to stop texting, and she’s texted me on 5 of those 7 days now. Always just little things – a question about work, a question about her health, a little comment about how her school was going – nothing too personal or emotional or affectionate or anything, and there haven’t been any prolonged text conversations, but almost every day I’ve gotten a text or two from her about something. I don’t know if she’s having second thoughts about if she really wants to cut everything off, or if she’s just trying to keep a little line of communication open, or if finds herself seeking some sort of reassurance that I don’t suddenly hate her or something… I’m not really sure, but honestly I don’t like it. I’ll be having a perfectly fine day, and then I’ll get a text from her and then I feel a lot of anxiety for hours afterward.
I’ve been responding pretty basically, taking a “speak only if spoken to” approach – if she asks a question, I answer it but don’t do anything to extend the conversation. Today I answered the question she’d texted to me, and then sent a follow-up text saying something like “hey by the way, I just want to make sure you know I feel totally good about our last phone call, I agree with everything you said and all of my feelings are positive even if we don’t talk or text anymore” – I saw that as a subtle attempt to reassure her that everything was fine between us while also reminding her that we’d agreed to stop communicating. She didn’t respond to that text, but then sent me one more little work related text that I just gave a thumbs up to. We’ll see what happens the rest of the week… at some point I might have to be more direct with her and say something like “so, if we agreed that we’re not talking anymore, then we should really stop talking now…”
Hi LiS,
I can relate again- although our situations are not the same, there’s a similar element again.
I texted my LO that I can’t endure this waiting for his decision if he stays at my workplace or moves away because I can only return to a normal state of mind regarding him as soon as he made a decision (while being ok with either decision), and that I cannot endure this casual texting until then because the situation hurts me. He responded with a flurry of texts that didn’t answer me and were basically that superficial stuff that bothers me. When I replied something regarding my texts, he wrote that he hasn’t made a decision and hinted that I make it more difficult for him by bringing my stuff into it.
So I decided to leave him alone (not in a „I’ll show you“ way, just honestly)but, since I really see no point at the moment in all the bla-bla texting, to stop that too since it really is kind of hurting me.
But now of course he makes an effort to text more and sends kissing Emojis and whatnot.
Didn’t he understand what I was writing? Apparently not.
I caved in and answered, as I don’t want to punish him for anything, but it vexes me a bit. I would rather not text until he decided. But that would come over as some kind of punishment or making it harder for him.
Once I‘m on tour I‘ll have an excuse for not texting.
LiS, you already listed the reasons why she keeps texting. It sounds a bit like my LO would behave- not quite able to let go, not explaining him/herself.
In your case, maybe explain to her that you would like at least a certain period of no contact at all, that it’s difficult for you that you both came to a decision and not following through completely, and that you need a cut for now.
Hello LiS. It seems to me that LO still wants to keep the communication channel open between the both of you, that she does not want to go in no texting mode, probably because she likes it.
I can understand how this has the potential to weaken your resolve, and to make you anxious afterwards. The longer one can go NC, the better one feels, so these frequent contacts can upset that rhythm.
The other thing that can work is if you give a delayed response to the texts, or no response at all to some texts at-least. However, since many texts seem to be work related, this may not be possible?
I am sorry I am not of much help, and I have gone through this before, however, in my case, the text exchange is really reduced now.
All the best LiS and hang in there!
Hey LiS,
I am surprised that she’s doing this. The cold turkey isn’t easy and the managed withdrawal must be easier for her to handle. Its not a particularly great idea or wonderful way of going about things, due to the risk of getting sucked back in.
Because you always want to be that perfect guy in her life – do you think you are able to cope with phased withdrawal and not risk getting sucked back in? It seems like you are at the moment, but will you still feel that way later, especially if she goes quiet for a few days?
If you manage to keep your mentality and priorities straight (bearing in mind that this is the best thing for your LO as well as you and your marriage) phased withdrawal is still possible, I guess, without sliding back to the old patterns?
Its probably just an adjustment phase on her side. You were always there for your LO, no matter what, she would get overwhelmed, disengage, and knew you’d be there anyway. Now you’ve both decided (on her suggestion) to end contact as its just too painful and difficult. You’re sticking to it and she is almost certainly panicking.
I wish you lots of courage in this because it is a real test of conviction.
I’m not at all surprised. It was obvious to me reading the initial story that LO is in this plenty deep right now.
I think if you REALLY want to cut this down you will need to be even more direct than “so, if we agreed that we’re not talking anymore, then we should really stop talking now…”
That sounds more like a hypothetical, theoretical thought experiment. You aren’t taking the stand here. The answer needs to be more along the lines of:
“This is how I feel about my wife: ‘And then I walked in the door at home and saw SO’s face and was immediately filled with love and affection for her; I spent the whole evening glued to her, talking and cuddling, just wanting to be close to her, held her close all night just thinking about how much I loved her and how devastated I’d be if we were ever separated’. You see now? I love my wife with all my heart and soul and I can’t do this anymore. It’s not good for me, my wife or you. We have to stop communicating. You will have to direct your work-related questions to someone else moving forward. I can’t compromise my marriage. I’m sure you understand.”
Yeah, I think she’s texting because she can’t let go as much as she knows she should. It’s the pain of a breakup even when you did the breaking up. That besides the fact that while you have a wonderful SO to go home to, she has to go home to That Guy.
@LiS
I hope she gets the hint soon… she probably thinks that since the conversation/texts aren’t about “that”, that it’s OK to still be in contact? But it sounds like you want total “no contact”. Which is fair.
I know this isn’t the most popular option, but not responding at all to her texts or even blocking her number may need to happen in order to protect yourself and your wife. I know it feels wrong, and I am not normally one to cut people out of my life, but there are times when it is the necessary option. It’s not because you don’t care; it’s because you care so much. It’s a last-resort option, I suppose. Just my experience.
@Serial Limerent
Have you been able to prevent limerent experiences, or do you still fall into limerence? I feel like now that I know about it, I can at least try to “prevent” the big limerences from happening…. but I still find myself attracted to these men who have the potential “glimmer.” And I am keeping good boundaries, and all…. just not sure why we are like this? When I am stable and married, etc. 😕
I feel like I should rename myself “Chronic Limerent”. I have literally felt this way since childhood. It’s like there’s almost always someone in the “backburner” and I can’t turn it off. I can manage it; but I do wish sometimes it would go away.
No, I’m in the midst of one right now. 😛 This one was years in the making and appears to be reciprocated and probably won’t go away any time soon…..I’ve never been able to keep my heart on one person at a time, at least not for long. I’d be dating one and looking at another, or crushes on two people at once….When I don’t have someone to crush on, I feel incomplete.
@Serial Limerent
Are you married, or single? Or something else?… 🤔
Married
@Serial Limerent
You are brave to go into a new limerence episode with eyes wide open. I know I couldn’t do it again while married — too painful 💔
Nisor
I am trying out fellowship tonight at church. Ive only done this one other time. So Im gonna try and be social.
@Adam
Looking forward to hear how it went!
It went alright. The table I sat at for dinner was mostly new people and they tended to carry the conversation. And I chipped in a bit. It’s still a bit strange for me to open up to “strangers”. I still feel like an outsider at church functions. For the most part Sunday service I am comfortable with. Even though the congregation is always so welcoming to me.
The men’s Bible class was about being the godly men that God wants us to be. In a world now where things regarding gender roles are upside down, it was nice to hear that being a man is not shameful. And the roles that men do take are the way the God created us to be. And that we should take pride in the roles.
The pastor talked about one of the sisters that has been attending this church for 20 plus years has fallen ill for the last few month or so. He said he visited her after service last Sunday and she probably only has days to week left. And that she talked to him about the hymns that she wanted sung at her funeral. She told him that everyone needed to dress colorful if they come to her funeral because she wants people to be happy. I’ve never met her as she became ill before I started attending. But when it happens if I am open to an invite I will try to dress my most colorful. Maybe an excuse I can buy some niche colored fedora to add to my hat collection.
@Adam
That’s so nice to hear about your pastor encouraging your role as a man.
If you do get a special fedora, make sure it’s in your color palette 😉
Bravo Adam,
You’re doing just fine. Keep going on Wednesdays, that’s where you bond with people and you choose the people you can relate to most. Don’t be afraid of people, they are people like you that once felt like you feel today with them, outsiders. But in Gods house and family there’s no outsiders, they’re all children of the most High! What a privilege to be called a son of the most High, born a prince! He has adopted you
as His most lovable child! You’re a work in progress, everyone is, for we will be evolving till the last second in this life. Let’s evolve in the good side. For there are people, believe it or not, who evolve on the bad side, for their own destruction. God forbid, for He wants everyone to be saved.
Have a wonderful blessed day in Jesus companionship.💪🏽
Limerent Nurse
I am thinking Purple Rain colored fedora. If only I had the fashion courage of Prince to dress like he did. 🙂
Nisor
I am going to try and make a habit to attend Wednesday service as much as I can. I do like the focused Bible classes for men. And I want to be more of a participant too. Now I mostly just sit and listen to the pastor and other participants.
Thank you for the encouragement. I reflect on your last comment about accepting that Jesus’ sacrifice for my sins is enough. I think about that often and try to figure where I need to fit it into my life.
Hi Bewitched, Snow,
I just skimmed posts,I’m on my way to the airport – thanks for your kind words and also updates!
I cannot write much because it’s all a bit stressful right now, just wanted to say thank you, keep trying to do the best for yourself and others, we‘ll all get through this mess.
My LO texts very friendly now, I only respond, try not to be too terse, but I want to clear my head of him while on tour.
Maybe when I come back he‘ll have decided, I do hope so.
Snow, which is your town? But you don’t have to tell. It surely would be so interesting and nice to see some of you in person for a coffee:)
Bewitched, I think you are not US based, Imho neither. But I‘ll feel a bit closer to Lost in Space, Lovisa, Adam, Snow, maybe ABCD?, Marcia, Speedwagon etc.
Not sure if I can keep up with posts the next ten days though.
Wish you all the best!!
Bewitched,
I can relate to your question about distraction- I also feel that maybe I use limerence as a distraction or validation but I‘m also not very sure why.
Hi Mila, Bewitched & co
I’ve been away and misplaced my phone. Maybe it was meant to be! So ive not been online much and I’ve had to do some very difficult things away from home including work which I was so worried about that I got some anxiety attacks, sleep issues, etc Anyway, I survived. I wasn’t perfect but did good and I consequently have a better sense of self-worth as bewitched calls it. I was rather in a bad place of shying away from anything challenging rather than facing it and getting on with it. Maybe some self loathing and dissonance. It was starting to be noticed so I knew a turning point was needed.
I definitely use LO thoughts as my run away retreat, as well as employing some other habits which aren’t very productive/healthy as a distraction. Anyway I’m gonna try to stay on this train of thought and give myself some kudos when I do good rather than self pity. It’s nearly 2 years for me since the glimmer and 1year since the really limerent symptoms kicked in and it’s frankly pathetic ( I did read Clementines post , which called us all pathetic – ha ha !) I’m catching up on all the posts here.
Mila, best wishes for your US tour – it makes you sound like a mega famous pop star ! 😀
Hi Imho,
I read between your humble lines that you did a good job whatever you were doing and think you should be proud to have faced a challenge!
I‘m really flattered,first Claudia Schiffer, then a pop star, I really make a career here on LwL!
I‘m not in the US yet but in another country, haven’t been here before, it’s very special and strange- looking forward to explore some of the nature tomorrow!
Thanks Mila (aka Beyonce). I found my phone! Phew.
I hope you found your credit cards in the end. Do give us a summary of your world tour when you are back ! (well the bits you are happy to share)
The nature country you described sounds fascinating.
I suddenly have the urge to do lots of things, and go places – not LO related. It’s such a nice free feeling that LO is not dominating my thoughts at the moment after so very long. I hope to stay on this track.
Hey Imho,
I also enjoyed Clementine’s recent post, thanks for reminding me. It made me smile, even though it was mildly insulting (🤓)
Good for you working on your self-worth and pushing yourself. The reality is that no-one else pays much attention to what we do*, so you, yourself are the only one you should be trying to impress (*apart from someone who is obsessed with us, of course, and they are usually too loved-up to care).
Also, you mentioned OCD and I also feel this is significant for me – I wrote to Speedwagon about it in my previous post.
I am delighted that you are doing stuff that you enjoy and are full of the joys of Spring today. Wait, what am I doing on here when its sunny outside?! Ta ra for now…
Hi Imho,
I missed a lot of posts but found yours- my wallet is still lost or stolen, but I‘m having such a great time here and saw such amazing things, all in the company of my lovely colleagues .I‘m very happy.
My LO got silent after I showed him some of the stuff he‘s missing here. I don’t miss him and don’t think much about him, I know it‘s just the overload of impressions, but it’s still good to know I can have happy times at work without him.
Tomorrow I’m off to the States!
„ It’s such a nice free feeling that LO is not dominating my thoughts at the moment after so very long.“
I second that!
Hi Mila,
I think I’ve hinted enough that I’m living in the “center of the universe, top of the world” where everything is possible in a humanistic stretch almost without limits? 🌆
Despite rambling big or strong, I have been waking up every morning with a more sunk heart without anxiety or hope — there is NO uncertainty in my situation, it’s purely Closure whether one names it or not, like one has to bid a farewell to a terminally ill friend…
In the past, even when a good friend leave the town for a career or relationship, I’d sink into depressions for months. I just hate it! Now, the biggest LO….
I’d love to have a cup of coffee with you and get to know you a bit in person; however, it’s really a bad timing. I do not want to bring a heavy somber mood to affect you, who is also anxiously waiting for a “fateful resolution” that is out of your reach… Let’s DO it next time!
I don’t know where you’d be staying, but will keep you in my mind and my rare prayer. Wish you a very smooth and successful business trip!
What Comes
Carolyn Forché 1950 –
J’ai rapporté du désespoir un panier si petit mon amour, qu’on a pu le tresser en osier.
I brought from despair a basket so small, my love, that it might have been woven of willow.
—Rene Char
to speak is not yet to have spoken.
the not-yet of a white realm of nothing left
neither for itself nor another
a no-longer already there, along with the arrival of what has been
light and the reverse of light
terror as walking blind along the breaking sea, body in whom I lived
the not-yet of death darkening what it briefly illuminates
an unknown place as between languages
back and forth, breath to breath as a calm
in the surround rises, fireflies in lindens, an ache of pine
you have yourself within you
yourself, you have her, and there is nothing
that cannot be seen
open then to the coming of what comes
@ Snowpheoix,
I have no problem with your forensic style and have not been offended by anything you have said.
Unless it’s the spoken word (preferably face to face), so much is open to misinterpretation I guess!? Wittgenstein may have alluded to that in some of his writings.
As I asked in my last post; is the Phantom you mention the same as the Shadow. The shadow being all those things we don’t like about ourselves that we banish. Though at our own peril. As our shadows actually are very rich and fertile that contribute to our growth.
Credo,
“I have no problem with your forensic style and have not been offended by anything you have said.”
Glad to hear it. Since some has had problems with my styles or views, so I thought it’s fair to give you a warning…
“Unless it’s the spoken word (preferably face to face), so much is open to misinterpretation I guess!? Wittgenstein may have alluded to that in some of his writings.”
I think Wittgenstein would jump out of his grave if he saw what was happening here among us limerents ghosts with our LE and other types of wounds still bleeding or scaring, while trying to share, reason, discuss, debate, or “throw stones” with ever confusing words, including ESL phrases… 😶
“As I asked in my last post; is the Phantom you mention the same as the Shadow. “
No. My Phantom is an idealized version of LO, originated and inspired from/by LO but “grown” his own life in my head. It resembles LO in appearance, but its personality is what my (sub)conscious has imagined or wished. I was in limerence with the Phantom more. At beginning, LO and the Phantom were one entity, later separated more as I got to know LO more.
“The shadow being all those things we don’t like about ourselves that we banish. Though at our own peril. As our shadows actually are very rich and fertile that contribute to our growth.”
I am quite aware of Jungian theories and has seriously gone on my own individuation path since last summer. I’ve recognized and dug up a lot of my shadows, which are still coming up through my vivid dreams. Nowadays, I’m quite comfortable to live with them nowadays and feel grown…
I have never heard Byung-Chul Han, will look him up later…
Glad to hear that you are not in the “dire” mental state as your old post has exaggerated…
Credo,
I’ve watched a couple of clips about Byung-Chul Han’s theories — “the Burned Out Society” and Agony of Eros”. and feel really sync with his philosophy. There are some Eastern tradition elements in his views. I’ll get the books “Agony of Eros” and “Silence” later.
I confess I don’t fully understand all of them, but I’ll share some of Han’s quotes here, in case someone here may find his work helpful —
“The reaction to a life that has become bare and radically fleeting occurs as hyperactivity, hysterical work, and production.The acceleration of contemporary life also plays a role in this lack of being. The society of laboring and achievement is not a free society. It generates new constraints.
Ultimately, the dialectic of master and slave does not yield a society where everyone is free and capable of leisure, too.
Rather, it leads to a society of work in which the master himself has become a laboring slave. In this society of compulsion, everyone carries a work camp inside.
This labor camp is defined by the fact that one is simultaneously prisoner and guard, victim and perpetrator. One exploits oneself.
It means that exploitation is possible even without domination.”
(HAN, THE BURNOUT SOCIETY)
************
“Eros is the subject giving itself over to the Other in love, only to be given back to itself as “gift” of the Other. “
“The narcissistic self
Unable to tell the difference between itself and the Other, , can only find meaning in that which is a reflection of itself.
“Narcissism has replaced love”
“Eros, makes possible experience of the Other’s otherness, which leads the One out of a narcissistic inferno. It sets into motion freely willed self-renunciation; freely willed self-evacuation. A singular process of weakening lays hold of the subject of love-which, however, is accompanied by a feeling of strength. This feeling is not the achievement of the One, but the gift of the Other.” – Han
“The Other must be a personalized Other, a “thou”
“Narcissism and pride only arise when the Other is considered a subject and not merely an object”
“The disappearance of the Other is the agony of Eros“
“Today, love is being positivized into sexuality, and, by the same token, subjected to a commandment to perform.
Sex means achievement and performance.
And sexiness represents capital to be increased. The body—with its display. value—-has become a commodity. At the same time, the Other is being sexualized into an object for procuring arousal. when otherness is stripped from the Other, one cannot love— one can only consume.” -Han
“Private intimacy has been replaced by public crowding”
“The imperative to enjoy”
“Love is no longer risky“
“The desire for the Other has been replaced by the comfort of the Same”
“Absolute Spirit acknowledges the negativity of the Other”
“In love; one dies in the Other“
“Capitalism is aggravating the pornographication of society by making everything a commodity and putting it on display. Knowing no other use for sexuality, it profanes eros-into porn.
On this score, Agamben’s ‘profanation’ amounts to just so much profanity.” — Han
“Love is an event”
“Philosophy creates new ways of thinking
It is based on a love of the unknown. Philosophy is the translation of Eros into Logos” – Han
@Snowpheonix,
It’s great you looked up Byung-Chul Han and got something out of it.
“I confess I don’t really understand all of them.”
Well, me neither but the parts that I do I’m really blown away. I really think he’s worth the effort to read!
I bought his books at KinoKuniya. I prefer bookshops than buying online. I have ‘Agony of Eros’ and ‘the expulsion of the other.’ And ‘the philosophy of Zen Buddhism.’ – which is a bit hard going in some areas.
I may well buy some other’s of his books.
for me he’s made philosophy relevant again.
Typo: I’ll get the books “Agony of Eros” and “Absence” later. Zen path is too “rigid” for me… I need a bit of healthy narcissism to survive and parent myself…
@ Crego,
“He goes to the heart of the malady of our post modern society“
I’ve sensed such a “malady” for a while (encountered it with LO #5 & 6, and several LO## in between), but has no analytically trained mind or words to put them in concise proses like Han does.
Thus I’m familiar/comfortable with some of Han’s thoughts, also because I’ve been following a YoTube channel “The School of Life” led by Allen de Botton, with the similar mentality…
Philosophy has always been relevant in my life, (sub)consciously and (un)knowingly, in both shores while most of the time uninterested in tangible materials since my teenage, which “alienated” an army of my acquaintances in both worlds…
Hi Snow,
I wasn’t really serious about us meeting. It would be very interesting and nice, but we all need this secure place to talk freely, and maybe that would change if we met in real life.
I‘m sorry that you feel sad! But I think it is a necessary phase of grief and you will feel better once this fateful date has passed!
But I‘m definitely in your town;) if only for a short time. Will think of you!
Hi Mila,
I agree with you that something would change if “ghosts” here meet in reality… maybe after we heal completely from our current LEs? The only “ghost” I’d feel very comfortable to meet in person at any given time is DrL. 😎 I think he’s amazingly, gentle, graceful, non-judgmental and empathetic towards all of us!
I began to feel sad and “fatigued” after waking up each morning, and would try every possible means to pump myself up, it’s not the best way to deal with grief… but if I don’t make efforts, my physical depression would catch me up, I can’t afford to let that happen. 😨
There is one small uncertainty in my LE: whether LO is going to relocate (depending where he gets his new job), although it does not change this LE’s finale. 🔚 😓
My town has been unseasonably chilly, hope you can enjoy your short stay! 🤗
Had tough day today, feeling a bit low right now. I didn’t relapse but a few unavoidable circumstances today put me closer to LO. Should be a one-off day.
I had this earlier in the week… It’s helpful, but never remotely a cure, to realize how different the struggle is from day to day. Hope you’ve got something good to look forward to this weekend!
Must be something in the air. My week has been a little more emotional than usual as well. At least it’s the weekend now.
Yes, it’s nice to know people here understand what a crappy LE day can be like.
@ Snowpheonix,
I forgot to add, thanks for the Han quotes!
He goes to the heart of the malady of our post modern society imo.
Diagnostic Quiz for Human Ghost
James Fujinami Moore
Over the past two weeks, please list the items you have lost.
At the present moment, do you know the location & number of your teeth?
(in grams) Please estimate the weight of each of the following: Left lung, half-liver, three fingers on your right hand.
(in miles) Please estimate the distance from the back of your skull to the skin of your eye.
Over the past two weeks, please estimate the number of times you’ve attempted to start a conversation and failed (including, but not limited to: grocery stores, living rooms, when you are alone.)
(in incandescence) How much light passes through you? Is it enough to write a letter?
Pick a letter. Pick a new name.
Can you hear the woman singing?
What was your death’s taxonomy? Where is its kingdom & domain?
How important do you feel to others?
Are you sitting atop the creaking hinges of something only you can see?
Are you certain there is no part of your body that is missing.
Are you certain there is nothing missing at all
Hi Snow,
A video that might help you as D-day is approaching.
“Everything you need to know about stoicism.”
Site: Aperture
It had 2.25 m views
Have great weekend, hugs
Nisor,
Thank you for keeping encouraging me in a turning point on my path… Repetition always helps train the mind!
A Home of My Own
In the East,
“Leaves must fall back to their root”
In the West,
Homer returns Odysseus to his Ithaca
I, a nameless pond-fish
floating among
the steady holding of loyal hands and
the eager calling of native Mothers:
“Come back, back to your homeland…”
decide —one day
I will lay my aged, culture-altered limbs
in the sunny, leafy Woodlawn’s Hillcrest…
To swim into the borderless and colorful seas
one could
tiptoe in Sapphic stanzas
puff Sand’s cigars on dashing horses
waltz on Whitman’s grass
stroll in Proust’s insightful mazes
sharpen eyes in 1984’s mental cages
rage against Shakespearian woes
weep for Dostoyevskian idiots
caress Werther’s infatuation sorrows
hug the giant hearts in Hugo’s realm
stroke Dicksen’s orphans to sweet dreams
chase Socratic evasive quizzes
slip into Nietzschean gay frenzies
giggle at the acidic tongue of Wilde’s wits
recline in Woolf’s room of one’s own
dig into oneself in Jungian couch
scribble in Lessing’s golden notebooks
inhale Austin’s serene feminine pride
refresh in Dickinson’s whispering
stand tall on Brontë’s’ unyielded will
awaken in Vipassana’s silence, and
recharge in Tantric wise embraces…
Here in the valley of the tallest skyscrapers
one could
swing leashes of muggle puppies
tickle colorful toes of mixed babes
hum ancient lullabies of all lands
gaze at dazzling robes circling the globe
savor the seven continents’ species
sip cocktails of the West shaken by the East
curl up in Madam Nin’s laced scarf
spin, spin around the rising of the light…
Here along the curves of Riverside
I could
hear the drumming of my unbending bones
touch the rise and fall of my girly pulses
shred my wild tears to godly faces
exhale my mumbling into compassionate ears
follow that hazy, roaming spirit’s calling
splash gashing ink to the subway’s cackling…
With self painstakingly-polished limestones
I erect my own Ithaca’s roofs.
2/9/2018 — the beginning of LE
We leave something
of ourselves behind
when we leave a place.
We stay there even though
we go away.
And there are things in us
that we can find again
only by going back there.
We travel to ourselves
when we go to a place
where we have covered
a stretch of our life,
no matter how brief
it may have been.
But by traveling to ourselves,
we must confront our own loneliness.
And isn’t it so
that everything we do
is done out of fear
of loneliness?
Isn’t that why we renounce
all the things
we will regret at the end
of our life?
The above lines are quotes from the film, “Night Train to Lisbon” , not my own.
“They reminded me that it was my fate to pursue only phantoms, creatures whose reality existed to a great extent in my imagination; for there are people – and this had been my case since youth – for whom all the things that have a fixed value, assessable by others, fortune, success, high positions, do not count; what they must have is phantoms. They sacrifice all the rest, devote all their efforts, make everything else subservient to the pursuit of some phantom. But this soon fades away; then they run after another only to return later on to the first.”
― Marcel Proust, In Search of Lost Time
“To achieve accurate knowledge of others, if such a thing were possible, we could only ever arrive at it through the slow and unsure recognition of our own initial optical inaccuracies. However, such knowledge is not possible: for, while our vision of others is being adjusted, they, who are not made of mere brute matter, are also changing; we think we have managed to see them more clearly, but they shift; and when we believe we have them fully in focus, it is merely our older images of them that we have clarified, but which are themselves already out of date.”
― Marcel Proust, In the Shadow of Young Girls in Flower
Sometimes, a piece of mind could be transformed over night in a tiny yet vital aspect — snowphoneix
Black Hole
Virginia Konchan
I’m sick of my face. Can I take it off,
mask of pantyhose worn by a thief?
Can I trade up, for museum beauty
or airbrushed celebrity perfection?
Those faces don’t crinkle or age:
they shine bright as headlights of
an SUV careening down the Autobahn
en route to mecca or the Lower Rhine.
My face resounds, reduplicates, divides.
If an equation, it’s the string of symbols
devised by Einstein to describe a theory
of General Relativity: the left-hand side
pictorializes the geometry of spacetime,
the right-hand side, all mass and energy.
Information is not knowledge, he wrote:
knowledge’s only source is experience.
My face is tired of experience, sapped
by being gaslit out of my true feelings:
rage, reverence, adoration, antipathy.
My ancestors, mostly potato farmers
from hardy Eastern European stock,
speak out of my face like prophets
in search of an incarnate messiah,
my face a burning bush or wheel.
You view my administrative face:
its abandonment during the throes
of passion is also a mystery to me.
Sad, slumping face, consternated
face overwrought by cognition,
face upturned with dumb hope:
I trace your origins, relentlessly.
When my ex-husband called me
a black hole, he was, in a sense,
correct: my face a gravity field
so strong even light cannot beam.
Supernova explosion, neutron star,
lead me to a beyond, deep within:
eros of the unthought, undreamed.
I would definitely be interested in a Limerence boot camp. In fact, I wish there was one available right now.
I am single and my LO is the husband of a friend who I have known for 20 years. I am very close with them and their children. He is a “good” LO – loyal to his wife, but he does, at the very least, enjoy the attention he gets from me, and might reciprocate. I desperately want to recover because I don’t want to lose this 20 year friendship. At the moment it just works out that we won’t see each other for at least 2 months, so it would be a FANTASTIC time for a boot camp. I will just have to make my own.