In the last post I made the case for limerence causing a collapse of self-discipline, which I termed “appetite supremacy”, and outlined some of the bad consequences that can follow. They are pretty bad, but there is another, related, consequence of this altered state of mind that can be equally destructive.
It’s another manifestation of the influence of limerence on strengthening “wanting” drives while simultaneously weakening executive control, which might be called limerence lunacy.
This is the phenomenon experienced in the middle of a limerence episode, when the limerent loses the ability to soundly process information and make sensible decisions. It isn’t the dark selfishness of knowingly indulging an addictive desire because you want a fix, it’s the scrambled thinking of someone drunk on ludicrous optimism.
A recent case in the UK provides a case study. It’s speculation on my part that limerence was a factor, but for those of us attuned to The Signs, I think they’re there.
One of the reasons it’s such an interesting case study for how limerence distorts your judgement, is because it involves a literal judge. Sir Marcus Smith.
A male High Court judge who expressed his love for a young female member of staff has received a reprimand for serious misconduct, the most serious sanction short of removal from office.
…the judge had passed a handwritten letter to a young woman member of staff, to whom he had previously confided and asked to go on walks with him, “referring to a number of personal matters and his feelings for her”. It stated that he loved the young woman and wanted to know her feelings in return.
Understandably, the woman involved – a junior co-worker – found this romantic overture distressing, and immediately requested that she no longer work with Sir Marcus. She also complained to the judicial conduct authorities, resulting in the reprimand. An open and shut case.
However, Sir Marcus apparently still doesn’t understand what he did wrong – or feigns not to. His defence was that:
…the letter was “a poorly framed attempt to reach out to her for support and to discuss his problems with her”.
By declaring his love for her.
The judge nominated to investigate Sir Marcus was unimpressed by this defence, concluding that:
Sir Marcus “had shown little insight into why his actions were so wrong. He had not acknowledged the romantic aspect of the letter, focussing instead on his own circumstances and feelings”.
Obviously, we are not privy to all the circumstances of the case, but one of the reasons that I suspect limerence lunacy had a role in this case is the utter madness of Sir Marcus’ decision-making.
In the current era, it’s preposterous to think that declaring your love for someone who works for you is OK, or that doing so wouldn’t come with massive repercussions. It just doesn’t seem credible that someone intelligent and experienced enough to rise to the very top of the UK judiciary could think he could get away with “chancing his arm” and seeing if he might be able to cajole (or railroad) a younger woman into a relationship.
Of course, predatory men in positions of power have been abusing that power for, well, forever, but this doesn’t seem to be a classic case. The Harvey Weinstein’s of the world tend to be more conniving – insinuating that a young woman might get some advantage by doing him favours, or engineering circumstances to be alone, or exploiting insecurity about “how business is done” to make her doubt her judgement. This guy just came straight out with a written note declaring his feelings for all the world to see, and asking if she reciprocated. A total, all-or-nothing, Hail Mary romantic pass, with the wildly naïve hope it might result in a relationship.
Sleazy predators don’t tend to write plaintive love notes. They are more Machiavellian. Predators are out for themselves, and wouldn’t jeopardise their status with something as guileless as leaving written evidence of their misconduct. They use strategic ambiguity.
To make the choice to declare your love to someone who is clearly not an appropriate match, over whom you have a duty of care, and who would make a self-evidently justified complaint about your conduct if it was unwelcome, you’d have to be pretty delusional about your chances.
And that’s where I see the signs of limerence lunacy.
It’s easy enough to conjure up a chain of “reasoning” that might make a limerent High Court judge decide to send that note.
- The time we spend together feels wonderful
- She’s so full of life
- I’ve never felt like this before
- She is wonderful and patient, and really seems to understand me when I talk about my problems
- I have to know how she feels, because this is the most golden opportunity I’ve ever had for bliss
- I’m only sharing my love, I’m not trying to pressure her into anything
- She can always say no, and I’ll be fine with that, I just want to know for sure
That’s the kind of fuzzy-headed, self-centred limerent thinking that could leave someone still focussing on their own feelings even after all the repercussions of putting a junior colleague in an impossibly uncomfortable position have landed.
Fundamentally, it’s the kind of thing you do when your objectivity is blown to smithereens by limerence, and the belief that if this feels special to you, it must be special, and therefore all those conventions designed to protect people against abuses of power don’t apply.
Outside the bubble of limerence lunacy, the actions are outrageous – the fact that the limerent is deluded enough to believe his intentions are pure is irrelevant, and no kind of defence against the damage that is done. Even when the bubble is burst by the reality of a professional reprimand, it only results in lost hope, wounded pride, and romantic confusion.
It’s this failure to process information soundly that I mean by limerence lunacy – losing the ability to step outside your emotional obsessions and see that you are acting like an irresponsible fool. The suspension of good judgement.
I’ll end by reasserting that I don’t know the details of the case, and Sir Marcus may not have suffered from limerence lunacy and is instead just a garden-variety creep. The abuser of power is an archetype, after all… but then so is the knight who destroys himself through the madness of lovesickness.
Although the harm done is similar, I’d argue that it’s important to be able to distinguish between the two motives when it comes to understanding causes, and designing protections.
Finally, of course, recognising the signs of limerence lunacy may also help to ensure that we don’t succumb to it ourselves.
Limerent Lunacy.
That’s a perfect term!
I appreciated this well -written post reminding me that Limerence cuts across all strata of humans including the most accomplished.
I myself have suffered from limerent lunacy and fired off cringe worthy love letters, and have, to my horror, received them as well (not from the recipients of my letters of course).
A friend once told me to never put ones romantic feelings down in writing until well into an established romantic relationship and I ignored her advice several times, to my humiliation. This seems typical for a limerent. I’m happy to say I’ve been limerence free for some time now but posts like this show me the ever present danger of letting down one’s guard and succumbing to limeernt lunacy.
Thank you!
Song of the Blog: “Something’s Wrong With Me” – Austen Roberts (1972)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni53lT8PmuI
“Sir Marcus “had shown little insight into why his actions were so wrong. He had not acknowledged the romantic aspect of the letter, focusing instead on his own circumstances and feelings”.
This is telling.
I spent a few years as the Quality Control Engineer in my section. I found that errors fell into 3 broad categories.
– People didn’t know the rules. This is a training deficiency and the right (emphasis on “right”) training will correct the problem.
– People don’t follow the rules. They know and understand the rules but don’t follow them. This is a discipline problem. Training will not fix this issue.
– People know the rules and attempt to follow them but they misinterpret the rules. This problem is impossible to fix proactively. Often, it’s because the directions/rules/procedures are sufficiently vague as to allow them to be misinterpreted. People try to do the right things but are second-guessed later.
Apparently, when things were explained to him, the judge just doesn’t get it. LO #2 was like that. I could explain why what she was doing was callous, insensitive, and hurtful and it just escaped her. When you couple this with the absence of malice and/or vindictiveness and lack of regret or remorse, it’s maddening to deal with. At least when you sense that you’re being screwed with, you may not understand why, but it’s easier to deal with.
In a professional setting, it can be catastrophic.
I definitely suffered Limerent Lunacy. I disclosed to my younger married employee LO for God’s sake. I’m not sure what I did is any better than the judge and it’s probably worse. I’m just lucky LO didn’t retaliate and she was able to move on. But it has affected our relationship. I still feel the disclosures tension beneath the surface when we interact at times.
I can remember the weeks leading up to disclosure. I wanted to tell LO so badly how I felt. I was just waiting for an excuse to come along and it finally did. I didn’t even hesitate to get the words out of my mouth. It felt so good to say them. Lunacy!
Looking back now, I was out of my mind. My limerence now is well past the clouded judgement stage and into the “when the hell will this end, I want you out of my life” stage.
I’m curious, Speedwagon, do you think your primary motivation for disclosing to LO was a desire for reciprocation?
Yes, for sure it was. It’s every limerent’s main desire I think.
What if she had disclosed she had feelings for you? What would you have done with the info, given that you were both married?
Not to be rude, but it’s asking a lot of someone to potentially be vulnerable and verify feelings and then not do anything further.
Speed,
I guess I forgot she was married. Had you mentioned that in the past? I could have sworn she was younger, with an SO but not married yet.
A lot to remember with everyones stories here. Pardon me if this is a dumb question.
@Marcia
I don’t know, I was limerent and not thinking clearly. I fantasized about everything from a torrid affair to just being content in our affection for one another. I never really thought it through rationally. Quite honestly, I never considered her not being somewhat reciprocal in her feelings.
And, we’re back!
https://livingwithlimerence.com/if-i-only-knew/
I think like most limerents I came This Close to committing some form of Limerent Lunacy. Or maybe I did commit Limerent Lunacy – you be the judge. Both times, even if it did not result in disclosure (one stripe of lunacy), it did result in me dismantling the relationships I was in (another stripe of lunacy), partially (but not completely) because of the limerence.
The limerence was a cattle prod. One could say those relationships had to end anyway, but without the limerent episodes, I may not have done it.
In one case, I got together with the LO afterwards; in the second case I did not.
The relationship with LO #1 was intense, and we were both very in love. We were together for a year. It was a disaster because we were fundamentally incompatible. I often think of the whole relationship as very chaotic and a lunatic episode. We were so bad for each other.
I could have disclosed to LO #2 after my second relationship ended but something stayed my hand. First of all, I knew limerence does not equal success (see above). Second, the incompatibilities and obstacles (except for me being in a relationship with someone else) were still there – and even without the Big Obstacle, the pros never outweighed the cons – even with limerence tipping the scales in favor. Plus, for some reason, the limerence changed very quickly once I was free of the relationship I was in (which was toxic). I was still somewhat limerent – but it faded very quickly. This is interesting, considering we all want to be rid of limerence.
Eventually, the limerence was gone altogether. I look back at it with a sense of wonder. How could I have felt so strongly for LO #2? Objectively, LO #2 is very appealing, but still the limerence was out of proportion. Funnily enough, LO #1 got in touch with me out of the blue about this time – and I was also interested to observe that not only did I not harbor any limerent feeling for LO #1, but I found them slightly repulsive! This is not through any effort on my part, I wasn’t trying to devalue them, etc. I just looked at them and how they had led their lives, and was just so glad I never stayed with them, I felt I had dodged a bullet.
So, this at least puts to rest the issue of needing to (sexually) discharge limerence before being able to get over it – it is not necessary (at least for me, sample of one). I developed my own theory of limerence (no Dr. Bellamy here, but we all can throw our hat in the ring once we’ve experienced this, right?) which is that: Limerence is in proportion to the need it is trying to substitute for.
LO #1 for me was about acceptance.
LO #2 for me was about freedom.
These are possibly the two biggest things I have ever sought consciously or otherwise in my life. The limerent episodes respectively propelled me towards getting more acceptance, and regaining my freedom. I would not have done it otherwise – inertia is a Thing. Limerence, as I’ve said, is a powerful cattle prod.
I am now in the honeymoon stage of getting into a relationship with someone new. The feelings are strong but it is NOT limerence (thank god), and when I look at the need I am seeking to fulfil pursuing this connection, it is not quite as big a thing as the first two. My … attention? obsession? infatuation? … therefore is proportional. It is not a limerent-sized need, so it does not require limerent-sized reaction. It is a worthy goal, and one that is important to me (its pretty hard to trump “freedom” for example – that one was a raging, insatiable, lunacy-invoking beast) but it is less fundamental an issue. I actually think that is why most of us are ashamed or embarrassed by limerence; on some level we know it reveals we have some sort of massive problem in our lives that need to be addressed. It is revealing to have limerence. I shows us at our most vulnerable, and that we have (massive) cracks in our lives that we may not want to acknowledge. (I think a big one, in modern society, is loneliness.)
I personally feel that desire for another is driven by our desire of what they represent (to us) and we seek to integrate that by pursuing the Other. It’s a utilitarian way of viewing personal relationships that some people may hate, but I might argue that it is not in contradiction to Love. In fact, I think love is when a person is no longer “useful” to you, but you love them anyway by putting their interests above all.
I think this theory gives rise to a more nuanced version of the “purposeful life” solution. There are many ways in which you can lead a purposeful life, but I think the only purpose that can “resolve” your particular episode of limerence is specifically that which drives the limerent episode. So, for me, after episode with LO #1, I gave up being a rebel and outcast and became the epitome of acceptability and respectability – I did all the right things, everyone loved me, I lead so many things in my community … etc. I “grew up” as it were, and became a functioning member of society. I achieved a lot in that time of my life.
Until that became a trap I needed to escape. Enter LO #2. Who shook my world so hard I questioned everything I wanted and had, and in the end, left my world as I knew it. I freed myself. And that was the point and purpose of that limerent episode. LO #2 was just a body for the concept. I look at this LO now, without the halo of freedom and … nothing. I feel nothing. Now when LO #2 texts me … I sometimes don’t reply for a day or two (or even at all sometimes). That is such a contrast whilst in the lunacy phase of limerence it is astounding.
So … take heart. Lunacy can pass. I hope it does so for all you suffering folk out there. But perhaps have a think of what is missing from your life and what you are trying to gain from having LO in your life.
#NLL
You have made a very eloquent case here. I think I have tried to make this distinction myself in the past, though unsuccessfully.
So yeah: What if the entire purpose of your existence has always precisely hinged upon finally winning in a LE? What if every calculated choice/decision/direction you have ever followed in your life was made for the purpose of making yourself finally eligible and worthy of the attention of a LO? Purposeful living, yes?
Hi James A.,
Interesting that you say you have grappled with the distinction yourself. What is your take on it?
I think each LO came (for me) at a juncture of a Big Decision, where my life needed to take some direction. I had to CHOOSE what was a Purposeful Life … at that point in time. The LO came as a herald, a sign that I couldn’t ignore this any more. I find it interesting that LO #1 led me one way, and LO #2 sort of led me the opposite. There is no “one purpose” as such that I needed to subscribe to to escape the LE – it was just the purpose that I needed at that point in my life … which was different from the purpose I needed at a different point in my life.
This level of uncertainty will drive some of us here mad, I know: we want an answer – how to get rid of limerence. And the answer is … it depends. It depends what you are needing. It depends what serves your current purpose. And for you to know that … requires not an answer from the interwebs external to yourself but deep introspection – sitting with yourself and digging and digging till you find it, resolve it, and thus remove the root cause of your limerence. BY the way, I say this so easily seemingly … but going through the process is Hell. My last LE was just over two years.
It was … *shudder* not something I want to go through again. I just want to acknowledge that.
You asked if a Purposeful Life could be the “purpose of making yourself finally eligible and worthy of the attention of a LO?” I actually think of it more that … we have a greater call, but because we are in a physical body, it gets expressed in a way that makes physical sense: ie. the pair bonding mechanism gets triggered (because that is how we organisms work) but it isn’t about pair bonding AT ALL. It is about whatever issue we are trying to resolve in our lives, and the way to get us to pay attention is … pair bonding, one of the most powerful biological tools in the box. It just LOOKS like it has everything to do with LO – but LO is a stand-in, a substitute for the Real Thing … you are longing for, with all your heart and soul.
THAT’s why LEs feel so intense, that’s why it doesn’t make sense why this average LO walks around with a glow, that’s why you cannot get them out of your mind. We think there is something about LO … but it really is something about our lives, about what is missing, about what we want even if we don’t know we want it. It manifests as limerence. For some of us, it comes when something comes up – at mid-life often, when existential questions become more forefront as we see the physical proof and realize we are not immortal, or when some life-shaking even like loss of a loved one happens. For others, limerence is a life-long experience, an ongoing need in life which does not get resolved and so keeps transferring LO to LO to LO … ad infinitum.
So purposeful living … is not to make me worthy of LO. It is to free me from LO.
Hi,
I think I completely agree. To me, this is often how obsessions work : it’s your subconscious trying to make you aknowledge something by repeatedly poking you with a vaguely related stick.
The worse phase of LE for me was when I needed to realize something about the relation (which was extremely chaotic) and when I did, most of the obsession disappeared.
I made the connection with obsessions because 10 years back, I started being recurrently afraid of pregnancy denial. The fear was there out of nowhere and would not go away. A few month later, a gynecologist accidentally found I had a large but completely asymptomatic and benign ovarian cyst and the fear immediately disappeared, and never came back. I suspect somehow my subconscious new something was a bit off, but wasn’t able to pass the info to me clearly so it tried something in the general vinicity…
I’m not completely out of the woods with lo yet, but I also realized this for me is about adventure, passion, and connection, and as I find a way to put it in other aspects of my life the whole thing gets much more bearable.
The thing is that I realized that more than a year ago but couldn’t help get deep into limerence anyway, so I suspect this was not the only message or knowing this was not enough.
Hi Suspiciously anonymous,
„but I also realized this for me is about adventure, passion, and connection, and as I find a way to put it in other aspects of my life the whole thing gets much more bearable.“
If it’s not too intrusive, may I ask what it is exactly where you found these missing things? I‘m curious because I think the headrush and good feelings that limerence brings (at least in the beginning) are hard to find elsewhere.
Hi Mila,
I think the limerence head rush is not replicable. 🙂
I think that is why so many of us who have experience it linger … either in it, or intellectually intrigued by it long after the fact. It is an extraordinary experience. Truly an outlier of mundane existence.
But it comes at such a price, most of us are not willing to pay.
For me, I find immense pleasure in: travel, meaningful friendships, intellectual discourse, new experiences. In my love life I have learnt to appreciate beyond being struck by lightning: I am learning the pleasures of healthy connection, touch, learning what makes me tick and turns me on, advocating for my own needs, being a more active instigator of romantic interactions rather than passive recipient, better body image, acceptance, expectation management, setting and respecting boundaries.
In other words: no longer lunatic, I find pleasure in many things in life I have some degree of agency in and control over.
No longer lunatic,
„ In other words: no longer lunatic, I find pleasure in many things in life I have some degree of agency in and control over.“
That resonates a lot with me. At the moment I’m off work for a while, I relish having time for the kids, just following their banter, or learning for school with them, trying out recipes, doing sports, preparing a work project I‘m looking forward to etc, also things are great with SO at the moment, and I do feel lucky with my life.
As you say, it’s satisfying to be in control, make things happen without feeling dragged along by some force.
Contentment like that isn’t the tingly, exciting waking up to life that limerence can be.
But right now, I can look at that from afar and not miss it. Don’t know how long that will keep up (having had three LEs following each other in the last ten or so years, I’m not used much to not being limerent at all), but for the first time I‘m hopeful that this was the last LE ever because I don’t need it anymore.
Hi Mila,
When I read what you write, I do feel you appreciate the solid offerings of your life. And recognize the satisfactions from that are different from limerence – superior in fact. The question is whether in this version of life, some need of yours (that caused you LEs) is being satisfied. I think that SPECIFIC need, whatever it may be for any individual, has to be satisfied before we are “safe” from limerence recurring.
I was scared after my second LE that if I ever got romantic feelings for someone again, it would be limerence-level (could barely function with that level of obsession and intrusive thoughts). That may feel “extraordinary” and it is – in a bad way! It sorta feels good cos it is triggering all the addiction chemicals, but we all know looking at the effect on our lives what a clusterfuck it is. A normal level of feel-goods in a normal attraction feels great without the extreme downsides (not too many, it isn’t perfect either, let’s acknowledge that! the key word here is “extreme”).
Hi No Longer Lunatic,
I know what you mean, I wonder myself about this need and whether it would rear its head again.
I‘m not sure yet, but at the moment the need that I had seems to have vanished or be quiet at least. I cannot precisely name that need, but it was there and seems to have changed, or maybe that’s only wishful thinking.
I might really change with age, nearing 50.
For me, limerence does also have positive aspects, and I think I was limerent for my SO back then. Things got interesting after limerence ended, but I have fond memories of that heady time.
Limerence got painful when it wasn’t „allowed“ because I was married.
And somehow something seems to have quietened inside me now, maybe with slowly recognizing that I’m getting older, life is short and precious and full of goodbyes, it’s time to let go of some needs and insecurities and appreciate what I‘ve got.
Hi Mila,
For me it was not one thing that was as strong as limerence but adding to these needs from other sources. Everything pales when compared to limerence but things are still there! Trying to actually get re-invested in my job(that I had ignored a lot) helped, and getting invested in activities too. Music for instance can be both connection (when in a group) adventure (on stage) and passion. For me as this was mostly mixed with Lo it did not help until I could start splitting the two a little bit…
But for instance you could try a group/stage thing like theater or dance I think (especially if stage is not your thing, so it shakes up your comfort zone!)
@NLL,
I just want to say I think you are really onto something when you say that the crux of it is identifying the one big issue (your ‘acceptance’ and ‘freedom’) that is the stick that limerence is poking you with. This makes so much sense to me. Thanks for sharing this viewpoint. Welcome to the world of having a three letter abbreviation here on LwL – All the best from LaR.
As a married man who disclosed my feelings to a junior coworker while working for a government agency that definitely doesn’t tolerate that sort of thing, I can confirm that this article is spot on, in particular the Chain of “Reasoning”. At the time, I truly believed that telling her how I felt (and then asking her how she felt about me) was the only reasonable thing for me to do. Not only did it seem completely reasonable, it seemed like something I HAD to do.
These days I guess I’m more or less still in limerence lunacy depending on how you define it. I mean, I’m still involved in an emotional affair with a junior coworker despite all the possible consequences, so that’s certainly a degree of ongoing lunacy. But it feels pretty controlled and predictable, we follow our rules, accept what we can’t have and savor the little moments of connection and warmth here and there, and don’t try to push boundaries or go for more.
But I worry about a return to full blown lunacy at some point in the future when she does leave our workplace. It’s definitely coming – maybe as soon as the next couple of months, maybe not for a couple of years, but there is definitely an expiration date on our time working together. And knowing myself and my feelings, I worry that when that date gets set and as it gets closer, I’m going to start feeling increasingly desperate to keep her close and avoid losing her, and she’ll likely experience the same feelings towards me, and I think that’s going to be a really dangerous time where one or both of us could fall back into full-blown limerence lunacy and it’s going to take a lot of insight and self control to avoid doing something really risky or destructive.
LiS,
I worked for the Feds for 42 years. In the wrong agency, that could cause you no small amount of grief. I had 3 interns assigned to me over the course of my career. I was scrupulous about my interaction with them. I guess I did OK since they all went to work for us after graduation.
There was a guy in my section at the last agency I worked for who I’m surprised got away with some of the stuff he did. But, nobody blew the whistle on him. If someone had, he would have been so far over the line that he would have been gone.
The closest thing I came to an issue didn’t have anything to do with an EEO complaint. We had a woman on detail to us. I was overseeing her work. Our Office of General Counsel was being particularly difficult and I made the comment that sometimes I wanted to beat them about the head and shoulders with sticks.
She went to our boss and he explained it was just an expression. I wasn’t really going to beat the lawyers with sticks, as tempting as that would be.
Hi Lost in Space,
I give you the same advice you gave me:
What kind of memories do you want to have after she left?
Do you want the bittersweet, loving memories of someone you had a unique relationship with while keeping your boundaries intact and your marriage untainted, or do you want the knowledge of having had too much, having crossed a line and betrayed your own conscience- and if I judge her right from what you wrote, there would be pain and shame on her side afterwards, maybe recriminations, bitter talks about that you shouldn‘t have etc etc.
Is it not better to leave the whole time of intimate talks and looks and supporting each other untouched in your and her memory as something special but never hurtful for others?
Sorry to be so sordid, but reality tends to be sordid after a headrush of limerence and heedless actions.
And I think it does matter what you think about it now, you will remember it when the time comes. There will be an emergency brake.
I suspect „having had too much“ doesn’t have the meaning I intended. I meant it as having been too greedy. having more than is healthy
Also, I seem to have used „sordid“ wrongly😂I meant something like „bleak“
I thought “sordid” fit just fine. But, if it wasn’t the meaning you intended to convey, “bleak” works.
Thank you LE,
I think I meant a mixture of bleak and also a bit sordid.
Thanks Mila. I know you’re right, that there’s nothing to be gained and everything to lose by trying to hold on to this thing past its natural expiration date. And I know that if I behave well and she behaves well, then a few months after the separation the pain will fade and the limerence will finally die out and I’ll have some nice memories of her and I’ll be free from all the unpleasant emotions I’ve felt pretty regularly for the past 2 years. It’ll be a good thing. I know it will. My logical brain knows this.
But my oh my, it’s going to be hard and it’s going to be painful! Because my emotional brain doesn’t want nice memories, my emotional brain wants to cling to LO, wants to keep her close to me forever. I don’t want to fondly remember our intimate talks – I want to keep having them forever. I don’t want to just remember how she smiled at me – I want to keep seeing her smile at me, keep feeling the warmth of her smile forever. And I’m pretty sure that as the end approaches, we’re both going to be suffering at the thought of it, but we’re going to respond differently according to our own natural tendencies. She’s going to deal with the pain by withdrawing, by putting up a cold front, by avoiding closeness and affection with me in our last weeks together because it’ll hurt her too much. And that’s going to make me feel increasingly anxious and desperate to try to break through her walls, to somehow get her to express her true feelings again, to somehow feel her warmth again. It’s going to consume me and it’s going to make me want to do crazy things to try to regain what we used to have. It’s going to take everything I have to just keep my feelings inside and do the right thing on the outside, one day at a time.
I’ve been thinking about going on antidepressants for awhile, to get through the end. I’ve never taken them before. I know a lot of people say they don’t like antidepressants because they feel numb, feel like a zombie. I keep thinking that would be a good way to feel for awhile. I’m tired of feeling feelings. I’d like a break for awhile. I want to just get through my days and do what I’m supposed to do and not feel much of anything. I don’t know, maybe that’s just taking the easy way out and I’d somehow regret it later, not really having the full unabridged experience. Or maybe I really should start an antidepressant now and continue it until she’s been gone for a few months. I don’t know, it’s just something I’ve been thinking about.
I know that this limerence is not good for me. Moral issues aside, I know it brings me a lot more pain than pleasure. When things are good between us and we’re close and talking all the time, I still suffer from the frustration of always wanting more and the anxiety of wondering how long it’ll last. When she’s being cold and avoidant, the pain and anxiety is intense. I know that there’s no way to keep her in my life without experiencing all these unpleasant feelings. And yet I so desperately want to keep her in my life. Lunacy!!
Hi Lost in Space,
I do feel with you. I had the impression that you reached a calm and happy stage with this, kind of having the cake and eating it, an envy for all of us, but that wasn’t right, I see now. I know that I advised thinking about the future time when she will leave, but now I’m not so sure. It seems to pain you unnecessarily in the present, and it reminds me of myself when I learned that my LO would leave. This moment takes on the quality of a doomsday, in fantasy the loss is unbearable. As a consequence, the present state of things seems to be more precious, a paradise that will be lost. But you say yourself that even now it does you no good at the end of the bill (I don’t know if there’s an expression like that in English).
I don’t have any experience with antidepressants. My instinct is to say that it‘s better to live through it fully conscious as some things need to be lived through to be able to let go of them completely afterwards. I also have no experience of pain medication when giving birth, not needing it with my two kids, but I hear so often that when it was necessary, sometimes my friends were too numb to push in the right moment with the right force, ending in a cesarean (which is also fine as long as both are healthy, I don’t want to start a discussion about that, I just want to say that sometimes numbing the pain numbs other necessary impulses too, which can’t be helped sometimes and is necessary for a good outcome and for overall wellbeing of everyone).
But as I say, I’m not to judge if you need it or not. I just think, if you think of resorting to such help, limerence really doesn’t do you good, and the treasure you are afraid to lose is mainly something you built up in your mind (not making the whole mess less painful or real, I know).
I also think that a not so small part of this LE‘s hold over you is her cold/warm cycle. You were hurt by her repeatedly going cold on you without explanation so much that you fear it like hell, it makes the good times much more precious than they would be if she would be consistent, and it exacerbates the fear of a final hurt.
You were kind of trained to try to keep her warm and at your side at all costs. I think it’s a dubious reason to hold a relationship dear. It’s not the only one, of course, but as I said, I‘m sure it does play a not small part overall since it serves the primal fear of being abandoned.
Pardon my intrusion, Lost in Space.
Mila has some great insight for you. I would like to add something.
Here is how I would like to see you handle the impending withdrawal from LO: focus on a physical, outdoor goal.
I prefer that you don’t use antidepressants. I have used antidepressants and I think they have value in some situations, but I don’t think they are a good idea for you in this situation because there are better options.
I encourage you to consider committing to 75 Hard. If you aren’t familiar with it, google it. I think you are capable of accomplishing that very difficult goal and I think the outdoor exercise will regulate your mood better than any antidepressants.
If that doesn’t speak to you, will you choose a race and train for it? Do the majority of your training outside if possible. Sunlight is a fabulous mood regulator.
Speaking of mood regulators, my favorites are
Sunlight
Exercise
Gratitude
Connecting with trusted, likable people
Hard physical labor with a purpose
Maybe you can make a list of your best mood regulators and lean into them even when you don’t feel up to it.
Mila, you didn’t use pain meds when delivering your babies? Wow! You are amazing!
Lovisa,
well, I cannot brag about that, I was simply lucky, both births were very quick, only a few hours, and easy, no tissue damage or anything. It’s much easier to cope without medication when you don’t have to go on for hours and hours without break, or if it gets complicated.
It still hurt a lot🙈 but actually I was more afraid of needles and medication than birth pain.
I actually think every woman who gave birth is an amazing hero (heroine?) no matter how it went!
Miss Lovisa!!!!!
I have missed you. I haven’t seen you post in awhile. Added that I have been posting less due to my setback last month. I haven’t even read the last few posts of Dr L’s, Trying to keep my mind focused on everything but limerence. But I still like to come in a visit with my friends here on LwL.
LiS
It may seem like an obvious point, but as I have experienced … don’t fall into the trap of self medication. I did it 20 plus years ago and it’s still stuck with me. I tried to use ir for limrence with mixed results.
I have only taken pills once for about 6 months back in 2011 while seeing a psychiatrist due to a particularly stressful and depressing job that I couldn’t get out of. But when I finally did I stopped taking them. I didn’t like how they made me feel. But they in their own inadvertent way did help me cope until I could leave that job.
I agree with Miss Lovisa on sunshine. Now that it is cooling off for fall and not 100 degrees outside, I spend time on the porch or taking a walk when I get home from work before I do whatever I need to in the evening. It quietly soothing and helps me move past my setback and get back on track. Take care my friend. Wishing for the best for you with your limerence.
@LiS
The only way to kill any mental pains is to go through it, or they will come back to haunt you again and again in the future! (paraphrase C. Jung)
When anticipating the worst of something to come, it would usually arrive lesser than one expects… (Stoicism)
Mila and Snow are almost over LE, reaching the other shore….
Try to stay away from SSRI.
LiS,
When I need to escape, I find a simple joy in simple home improvement projects. Working in my yard can be very therapeutic.
I also enjoy tinkering and improving my home entertainment system. Hoping to also make room for my piano, once I get my spare room organized.
Once I escape into one of these areas and really get into it, I thank myself later on. Because I wasn’t dwelling on insecurity and drowning in my own sorrows.
Hello LiS. I do feel for you. Heck, I have gone through the exact same emotions as you, as Mila said – stuck in hot/cold cycles.
I am not sure regarding the extent of interaction with LO. For me the amount of interaction was directly proportional to the positing and negative feelings. In the beginning, the highs and lows were so intense (high = walking on air, low = depressed).
With time, the intensity of these feelings tapered. As of now, LO contact is really minimal. This reduction in contact has really helped me, I have felt. I am sure it will help you too.
In your case, it seems there is LO reciprocation as well, so this makes getting out tricky. For me and LO, there seems to be reciprocation, but it is within barriers, as both have SOs.
A couple of hints that I seem to be doing better now: need to seek LO is reduced (not zero, yet!), when I see LO from a distance, I am a lot more calm, used to be distressed earlier, my overall quality of life seems to have improved, I am feeling more happy, in general. Hope the trend continues, wish me luck, y’all!
Hi ABCD,
glad to hear you are back on track! I think time and determination to get back to the chosen path will solve many issues.
I use this post to reflect a bit on my current situation too, if you don’t mind.
I‘m still in too frequent contact with my LO for my taste, but I reduce it very slowly, I don’t want to be unkind. I realize that it’s hard for me not to give people what they want, even when I know it’s not what I want. Also, it’s hard for me to bear it that people might like me less or think less of me, even when I shouldn’t care (don‘t mean necessarily only current LO).
I don’t feel limerent at all any more, I just don’t trust myself that I don’t lean too much to the other side, having negative feelings and being unkind to someone who was all the time just his own -a bit insensitive -self. So I try to get more distance into the friendship without hurting him. Don’t know if I succeed.
I reply on his texts, but sometimes delayed and not encouraging further texting, I hardly initiate texting any more, and especially in the evening I delay answering and sometimes leave it until next morning because I don’t want to encourage the playful evening-mood texting ending with good night-texts and the question whether to send kissing Emojis (haven’t heard from Imho in a while!)or not.
I think he notices and is kind of pissed off, (curt texts after that etc), but then my anger surges a bit, I mean, he doesn’t have a right to be pissed off at all.
I could go on a rant right now, how he simply takes it for granted that I‘m there to validate him and give him nice feelings in the evening etc, never once questioning if it’s appropriate to text in this frequency and intimacy with someone who‘s not his wife.
I know I did it too, but me, I questioned it all the time and tried to get out of this limerence. I suspect he could go on indefinitely like that, me being a kind of second wife to him when he needs it without officially endangering his family.
But I try to avoid this kind of aggressive feelings too since they seem to me a residue of limerence, I aim for equanimity.
My aim was to keep the friendship, and I will, but I have to say it won’t be the friendship I envisaged, at least for a while. I need to water it down and make it much less intense and not special at all. Maybe we can get back to more warmth in future, but I’m not sure. I seem to need a time out from him.
I want to add that it would maybe be different if he would have been open to honest talking (not disclosing, but any kind of honest talk about our friendship or feelings generally). It would have been more difficult for me to beat limerence of course, but it would maybe have saved a deeper form of friendship than I want to give just now. Now I feel I owe him nothing in terms of honesty (why I’m pulling back etc), and I’m pretty sure he won’t ask, just be pissed off and do nothing about it, so I’ll just continue to heed my own emotional safety and distance myself. I was the one to bring more intensity and warmth into the friendship, and now I‘m the one to take it back, it’s just logical. And I think in the end it’s the best for him too.
You see, I need to tell myself over and over that it’s ok and the right thing to eliminate the last ambiguous traces of more-than-friendship from our friendship, which is stupid since it IS the right thing to do, no matter if it doesn’t suit him.
Hey Mila,
Its great to have your update!
This is the key: “You see, I need to tell myself over and over that it’s ok and the right thing to eliminate the last ambiguous traces of more-than-friendship from our friendship, which is stupid since it IS the right thing to do, no matter if it doesn’t suit him.”
It may not suit him but it is the best thing for him, as well as for you. So you are on the right path by telling yourself this and staying the course.
It amazing how much difference a few short weeks and months have made, isn’t it?
Like, what you want now has clarified for you into a less close friendship than you thought you wanted before. And all because the reciprocal warm friendship that you wished for after the limerence had subsided is actually evading you, now that you see him with the rose-coloured glasses off. Because that’s just not possible with this man.
And I am not one bit surprised that your feelings towards him now veer towards slightly negative (no rose-coloured glasses anymore!). I think that is okay as long as you are aware that he may need to play catch up – and you are obviously being patient with him while that happens.
“My aim was to keep the friendship, and I will, but I have to say it won’t be the friendship I envisaged, at least for a while”
Time will solve it though, right? If only you could fast-forward to next year, I feel that everything will be resolved by then and a new pattern established.
Are you still hosting dinner for his family – or maybe you have already done it? This seems like a real hard ‘ask’ on you right now. Although I do see how its a very kind thing to do in terms of leaving friendship fade softly instead of abruptly….
Hope your work and health are also ok.
[I could write an essay on my own LO progress and I will soon but I can summarise it as follows: ‘euphoria is hard to find these days!’, I am increasingly over it, in other words]
Hi Bewitched,
thank you, you summarized it on the spot, and I appreciate that you support me that it’s the right thing to do since the people pleaser in me feels a bit guilty now and then.
I‘m not sure if you mean the goodbye- dinner, that’s done and over and seems to have been the turning point for me (somehow my gift helped me to get closure while it seems to have encouraged him to seek more contact).
They will visit in the middle of the month, and I have to say, I’m not in the mood for much effort. I‘m glad we made an effort to give them a very nice goodbye dinner, on my visit to him recently he just warmed up something from the freezer his parents-in-law made ;), so I don‘t feel obliged- I think they can come for coffee and cookies or something. I don’t mind hosting them and baking myself, but I won’t go to the effort of a dinner. I also try to get out other mutual friend on board, maybe we can do something all together.
I don’t think about it much.
The thing is that he hasn’t really said goodbye himself, to everything including his old job. He continues to want to come as a guest, taking an interest in everything etc., and that means he‘ll be working here end of the year and beginning of the year. But I don’t think about that much, too, it just hardens my determination to dial everything down on my side. I honestly think we will be much more pleased to see each other when we don’t have this much contact in between.
But I also still think I’m a bit too hard on him and in danger of throwing a loyal friendship away. It seems necessary at the moment though, and I try to keep myself in check.
„Euphoria is hard to find these days!“ that could have been me saying it. But at the moment I don‘t miss euphoria much, I‘m quite content without it just now. Maybe I’m getting old.
Looking forward to your essay!
Mila, “…how he simply takes it for granted that I‘m there to validate him and give him nice feelings in the evening etc, never once questioning if it’s appropriate to text in this frequency and intimacy with someone who‘s not his wife.”
When you write it out, doesn’t it sound obvious and strange to be doing that?
My situation is a little different – I know I’m not limerent because my mood doesn’t depend on my friend and I don’t have obsessive thoughts. Also his wife has said she has no interest in the marriage any more and that he can do what he wants. I think part of what appeals to him about me is that I am so much like his wife – with the difference that I’m nice to him! 🙈 So texting me he can pretend he’s texting an improved wife 2.0! And talking with him I can see what my ex-SO at one time felt – except I’m being nicer and more patient with my friend! Sad really. …Where was I going with this again..? Oh yes, some people (I won’t generalize with “men”) are really out of touch with everything related to feelings (i.e. they don’t realize how “in deep” they’ve gotten with us), but they clearly have emotional needs that they are doing all they can to get fulfilled! It’s a deep human need, and of course it’s going to hurt if it’s going to be yanked away. Sometimes you have to do it though.
I’m glad you’ve also cut down on the nighttime texting, that’s a dangerous (vulnerable) time!
Trifles,
„ some people (I won’t generalize with “men”) are really out of touch with everything related to feelings (i.e. they don’t realize how “in deep” they’ve gotten with us), but they clearly have emotional needs that they are doing all they can to get fulfilled!“
That fits my LO perfectly, and is part of what makes me angry. The expectation and taking for granted that someone else will provide endlessly for his emotional needs without himself acknowledging them, plus getting irritated without questioning his motives or responsibility himself, when the other person decides to stop giving the validation.
But see, you seem to see it with acceptance and amusement, while I get riled, which is a sign of the last barrier I have to overcome: just leaving him be how he is.
In your case, do you think you would be as calm and independent if he would be less consistent and suddenly not be reliant to text every day etc? Just curious, because I had calm phases in my limerence because I was so sure of his affection and steady interest. But I always wanted more- do you want more? Doesn’t sound like it.
“In your case, do you think you would be as calm and independent if he would be less consistent and suddenly not be reliant to text every day etc?”
Hmm… That’s a good question, and one I like to check up on with myself at regular intervals. He was very busy on a work trip recently, and I didn’t get the attention I was used to. I had some withdrawal symptoms(!), but by the end I was thinking: “This has been strangely intense – are we really that close after all or was that an illusion? Could/should we just dial it down?”. But then it picked up again.
And sometimes I feel the need to push for a deeper connection. Because we started off in the deep end and then veered toward the more superficial. But like I told LaR, that would be futile – there really isn’t anywhere for us to go. Still, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having a confidante, someone who supports and maybe even understands me… Just as long as we are satisfied with that!
Mila, Trifles,
Maybe I also shouldn’t bring gender into this, but as a male it is very interesting to read what you as females feel about these men (?(X)MFF) in your lives, and how they treat you. If I flip it round I think it can help me figure out how my LO might feel.
I have always been hyper-conscious of the need not to treat LO in any way like “wife 2.0”, especially since I have processed and understood my LE better. I know by doing it I’d be being grossly unfair to both LO and SO. Admission – it is sometimes a battle not to, because she is pretty much the next person after SO who I would always want to tell things to, talk to, get a view from etc. I have to really rein myself in. But I wonder if I overstep at times and might leave LO feeling like Mila has described how she currently feels.
But, flipside – sometimes LO could be seen as acting to place herself in something like that ‘2.0’ status with me. Not in a really calculated or heavy way and not all the time … but in little ways, definitely. Like I said to Vicarious somewhere else on this thread, I’m pretty sure that if I got closer to any other woman (than SO), and if LO knew, then she would push back hard and try to secure her own status with me. I have seen this happen several times, even when she has got it totally wrong about me being closer to one or two other women than to her.
I have learned (mostly) not to seek validation from LO. She gives great validation apart from when she is prompted for it. I am not sure if this is a character trait (Trifles? Any NTP insight?!) – I think so, as I see the pattern happen between her and others as well. Or, if it is a part of keeping the boundaries of the LE safe. I think a bit of both.
The learning from this is obvious: don’t ask and you will get.
However … LO will often turn to me as the first person when she wants validation herself. I have been a pretty willing party in giving that when it is sought. Maybe I have set myself up for this role.
So – Mila, Trifles or anyone else (female views especially welcome in this case) – what do you think, is my LO’s behaviour basically reasonable? You are saying it is tiring if your MFFs ask you for too much validation, and I get that. Do you think in the same breath that you seek/sought validation from them, or have done? Are or were you likely to dish it out to them if they don’t ask for it, and kind of ‘set yourself up’ to play that role? If you knew that your MFF had grown closer to another female (excluding their SOs), would you take steps to keep them closer? I am open to any answer, just interested – this whole discussion about validation intrigues me. Please set aside as much as possible – for now at least – the question of whether *I’m* being reasonable for keeping LO as a ‘friend’ … we have done that in many other places, and I do work very hard these days on how not to ‘use’ her for validation or other things that I shouldn’t.
LaR, very interesting questions!
re: my wife 2.0 comment – it came partly from me having gone through some phases his SO is apparently going through, but having reached the other side (maybe). So in a way I think in the beginning he saw me as providing him insight of what his SO would eventually evolve into(!). Kind of like how you are interested in my and Mila’s perspectives to understand your LO, he was interested in mine. Then I can imagine *he* imagined he was talking to future her when he was talking to me! I might be completely off-base (but I’m usually not! 😉)
“Don’t ask and you will get.” Sounds like me! Tell me to do something and I will push back. (Ha, I’m a great employee!) Try to manipulate me, I will push back even harder – and lose respect for you. Leave me to my own devices, and I (may) want to be generous with the validation. But I think a lot of people dislike being told what to do – not just NTP.
For me, I’ve learned to do the opposite: ask and you shall receive. Through growing sick of ambiguity, and because there are too many opportunities for misunderstandings when not face to face, I’ve learned to clearly ask for what I need. And he has been happy to provide it, most of the time. Or if not, at least I asked. That way I will avoid the disappointments of uncertainty.
The validation is mutual, but I don’t think I ask very often.
Also interesting question – if I found out my MFF had grown close to someone else, it could go two ways. I could – subconsciously – try to lure him back in (improbable) – or I could be hurt (realize I wasn’t that special) and use it as the excuse to let him go. The deciding factor being how close we were in the first place – but losing my “place” would be proof that we weren’t close. So there you go – if you want to get rid of your NTP LO (or anyone with a clear sense of self – or strong ego, if you prefer), find another one and rub her face in it. 😉 Disclaimer: results may gravely vary.
Lim-a-rant,
just saw your post, but no time now- will try to answer later!
Mila,
No worries at all. I understand the ‘no time to reply’ bit so much! Take your time and be kind to yourself today. The / my world isn’t gonna implode imminently if I don’t have my answers!
Trifles – great response and thank you! Likewise I will reply to that when I have more time (if only we didn’t have to work eh?)
Lim-a-Rant,
„because she is pretty much the next person after SO who I would always want to tell things to, talk to, get a view from etc. I have to really rein myself in. But I wonder if I overstep at times and might leave LO feeling like Mila has described how she currently feels.“
No, I think there are differences between our cases .
The first is, that back in the last year I also wanted to get a view from him and talk about important stuff to him like you describe, but he always kind of stalled, he isn’t used to talking about important stuff (back then for example about his decision to change workplaces etc)- what he wanted/wants from me was very frequent but superficial contact. I have to correct myself, I think for him it’s not superficial, this is maybe the most he can open up to anyone.
It was just not enough for me. I think you and your LO might be more on one level about what true talking/contact means.
Second, I don’t want to be taken for granted. That’s what I meant by „second wife“- someone who is simply expected to provide validation etc., who‘s always there and doesn’t need to be thanked for anything (not that I would treat my husband like that or he me! I mean kind of a cliché wife). This goes together with what you mentioned about your LO not providing validation when prompted. I provide when I feel like it and really mean it, and when someone feels entitled to my validation, he can go and scratch his own back.
I got the feeling that my LO takes it too much for granted that I will provide him with compliments and ego-building stuff when prompted, but it‘s very rare that he makes compliments himself, also he cannot be prompted because he doesn’t get the hint, and that altogether caused an imbalance for me – and I, not being limerent anymore, feel like I‘m done providing for the moment.
So I‘m not sure you can compare that to your LE. But I guess she reacts sensitively to being taken for granted, too!
„Do you think in the same breath that you seek/sought validation from them, or have done? Are or were you likely to dish it out to them if they don’t ask for it, and kind of ‘set yourself up’ to play that role? If you knew that your MFF had grown closer to another female (excluding their SOs), would you take steps to keep them closer? “
Yes, I sought validation and got it from time to time, but actually not that often. I think I set myself up to play the validationer (??), dishing it out when he didn’t ask for it in the beginning, so of course it’s partly my doing that he expected it from me at some point.
But most people naturally give something back, not just take and take passively, knowing that it’s a give and take.
I do think he honestly believes he gave it back too, which is not true in my books, but as I said, we are differently wired, he might be a bit neurodivergent, he just cannot give more.
But for me it was still painful to be in this imbalance while he was still so important to me. Now I simply don‘t want to dish it out anymore just because he expects me to.
The last one is an interesting question. My impulse is to say yes, I would have tried to keep him closer. But then, that would have been only in the beginning of limerence, and also when we were just friends and not limerent. I remember a woman incending my competitive streak when she tried to get closer to him back when we were just friends and were on a business trip together- I got a bit possessive and threw my weight around a bit until she gave up:)
But in the painful stage of limerence I might have taken that as a sign that I’m not special to him and that he‘s not worth it all, I might have grasped at this to end the LE. And now I frankly just wouldn’t mind.
I don’t know if that helped since everyone‘s needs and reactions are different!
Wow! Very concise insight. I definitely had Limerent Lunacy about five years ago in an equally ignominous fall from grace, except this young woman, in my case, was my superior.
I am currently limerent for another young coworker that I see every day, and I have been for over a year — but I haven’t said or done anything stupid in the whole time, and I’m not going to. We exchange glances and smiles (especially through dirty glass doors — shrug 🤷♂️), and that is the extent of it.
What I have learned in the last five+ years is that you NEVER disclose your limerent feelings to ANYONE, let alone your LO. Inadverdently broadcasting your feelings in your body language seems to be perfectly excusable — even amusing — but God help you if you do something deliberate such as a “speech act”, or especially putting something in writing, for fuck sakes! (horror face 😱) I have personally found that the best defence against limmerhell is to simply “excuse yourself” from the pressure of ever having to plan the perfect time to die by self disembowment or by disclosing your dear sweet fucklings to your Limerent Object, the object you want to own — mind, body, and soul!
You know, does anybody remember the whole debacle that ensued when a cute young intern actually did reciprocate the advances of a sitting U.S. president back in the 90’s?
“She can always say no, and I’ll be fine with that, I just want to know for sure” (DrL on the judge’s likely thought processes).
I think this point cuts to the heart of the biggest troublesome question for limerents. It is also one where the brain fog (‘lunacy’) clouds judgement the most.
I now have a few months hindsight from the point where I most strongly believed that I must disclose to get certainty (I didn’t do it).
Hindsight massively changes the way I look at it. I had no intention of anything progressing with LO, because of my SO. I just so strongly wanted to know, once and for all, if there was reciprocation, or whether what I felt in my head was pure brain trickery. Obviously, I still don’t know.
But the point is – had I disclosed, there was *no* good outcome, whatever her response would have been. And there were many potentially bad outcomes. My brain couldn’t really reason it out at the time. On one level it could but on the other the primal urge to do it anyway nearly took over – once to the point I wrote out a huge text saying it all but just never hit send.
Several LwL archive posts held me back and I returned to them in the closest moments. The one that L.E posted above (‘If only I knew’) is about the very best – it is the one that stopped me sending that text. I also found this one helpful on learning to live with uncertainty:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/living-with-uncertainty/
My thought process (in hindsight) is that LO didn’t ask for the situation, and that means it’s down to me to live with the uncertainty of not knowing. Better that than dump it on her as some kind of statement like “I’m interested but not actually interested, by the way are you interested?” (How ridiculous does that even sound?!)
I haven’t posted this to seem to have a go at anyone who did go the other way and disclose, as I know how close I was to crossing that rubicon. I have posted it for anyone reading it who might also be thinking “I need to disclose to get clarity / certainty”. I believe this is one of the most common, powerful but addled thoughts limerents have. If you, the LO, or both have an SO, there is basically no good outcome to disclosing, and lots of bad ones.
It took so much resolve and overriding of instincts at the time. But hang on a bit and it will look and feel different. The alternative of holding it in and living with uncertainty is not without its problems, admittedly. I don’t have the comparison with what I’d have learned if I had disclosed, but I feel happier with not having taken the risk. And feel I’d be in deeper water if I had.
Your LE may vary, but I think all this goes for almost all LE’s with spouses involved.
I disclosed to LO #2 (not my current LO) with the goal of going no contact. I was so jealous when she started dating someone at the time. I told her I adored her but had to get over her, so I was cutting her out of my life. She basically begged me not to do it, and told me she had genuine friendship with me and that such friendship is hard to find. She also told me that things wouldn’t be awkward between us. Well, they were a bit for a while, but she remains one of my best friends.
I am completely over her now due to transference to LO #3 and a very weird coincidence I can’t get my head around. I thought I was over her but realized a few months ago when she was supposed to bring a date to a group event that I wasn’t entirely over her. To cut a long story short, the guy never showed up because LO #2 decided she wasn’t interested in the guy because she wasn’t attracted to him. Interestingly enough, it was also the first night I actually got to meet LO #3 (I had seen her around before but never spoke to her). But this gets weirder; turns out the guy she was supposed to bring as a date was LO#3’s ex-boyfriend and a guy she was recently still dating on and off! So strange. But before I knew that, I felt like being confronted by LO #2 possibly dating a guy right in front of my nose helped me get over her. I swear it wasn’t just transference to LO #3, although that helped.
The strange thing is LO #2 always used to go on about the type of guys she likes, and they’re nothing like me. She did mildly flirt with me very early on in our friendship but that didn’t last. I have confided in her about LO #3 and my glimmery friend. I could be mistaken, but I detect a slight hint of jealousy. It’s like the proverbial “I don’t want you, but I don’t want anyone else to want you either.” I suppose it could have been a bit of a blow to her ego, but I am completely over her, despite still finding her attractive and liking her as a friend.
Hi Vicarious,
I think it is hard for you to make a true judgement on whether either LO2 or LO3 might be ‘into’ you, because of your marital status. I have read what you’ve said about the marriage being dead for years and intending to divorce. But for your LOs, your wife is still there in the background. And along with that, the threat of getting themselves a reputation as a homewrecker if they went anywhere with you, or tried to. So what you are seeing is just their version of the truth / their attraction (or not) that they can present in this situation. Not how it would be if you were free and single. Sorry if that’s hard to hear. Try and keep enjoying the benefits of being friends with these and other people for now.
Do LO2 and LO3 know each other (are you all in the same social circle) or is the mutual date in common just big coincidence?
I have a theory that many LOs don’t aspire to be their limerent’s Number 1 (and therefore be associated with home wrecking) but would move heaven and earth to protect their Number 2 status and their specialness to the limerent. Maybe this explains why your LO2 has displayed pangs of jealousy?
Thanks for the reply. My wife is very much in the background for me too. I still have a certain line I will not cross, no matter how bad my marriage is. As long as we are still living under the same roof, I’m not going to have an actual physical affair. I’ve made that commitment to myself. I think LO #2 and LO #3 both know that. But I’m probably engaging in some level of “monkey branching” with LO #3 if I’m being honest with myself. I’m not trying to have an affair (either emotional or physical) but I am trying to establish a nice friendship with a lady I could see myself with once my situation changes. I even told her I want to keep things innocent and platonic. If I leave my marriage, it won’t be for her (or any other woman), but because my marriage isn’t working for me and I’m fed up with the way my wife treats me. My wife is the type who would accuse any woman I’m dating of being a home wrecker even two years after our split. I know the truth, and if I did end up with LO #3 soon afterwards, I would want to prepare her for that. People are going to talk anyway. Ideally there should be a clean break and a period of no dating after the end of my marriage, but this lady is just too fantastic to pass up a chance with. She likely wouldn’t be interested, or would put me in the friendzone or end up with someone else, but I’d have to give it a shot anyway. I’d take the chance anyway.
LO #2 and LO #3 are both part of our big friend group. They’ve certainly been out together but I don’t think they’ve even been introduced (I was hoping to do that last weekend but it didn’t work out that way). Them dating the same guy was a big coincidence. He asked my male friend to introduce him to LO #2. Neither of us knew at the time that he had also dated LO # 3 and was still kind of dating him on and off.
Regarding jealousy and a special status, I think you’re onto something. Even before I disclosed to LO #2, I could see jealous looks on her face when I mentioned other women. She knew I liked her on some level at least. We both recently admitted to each other that it’s a huge ego boost as long as the person isn’t someone you find totally gross.
I’ve also heard a theory that women in particular sometimes friendzone guys they see as backup options. I’m not sure about that, but I think anyone can understand the appeal of knowing (or suspecting) someone is into you.
I think this point about the uncertainty being the limerent’s to bear is important. Ultimately I don’t think there is a situation where disclosing to LO is ‘pure’, there will always be that what-if?
In most cases, if someone discloses to LO but has an SO, I think they are certainly in the madness of limerence or have integrity issues. There might be some situations in long term friendships or with colleagues where clarity is needed, but I suspect they are few and far between.
I think there is always that fantasy with disclosure that the LO will reciprocate. But then what? In my case, I wouldn’t do anything about it, but it would have been tempting to think about acting on it. I still maintain that I would not cheat on my wife until we go our separate ways, despite things being strained and living like roommates for years. I had thought that I would try dating LO #2 if my marriage ended and she was interested, but I never thought she would be a fit for me deep down (unlike LO #3, who is absolutely wife material for me).
Hi Adam, it’s good to see you. You seem to be recovering from your set back remarkably well. I expected it to be worse, but you’re getting through it. Nice job!
I haven’t been posting much simply because I’ve been busy with other things. I’m still taking care of my mom, I have two pending court cases against my sister, and I have all the responsibilities of a mom of 5. It’s a busy life. Oh, I almost forgot to mention my good news. Mr. Lovisa got a nice promotion. He is doing a job he likes, he got a pay raise and he works from home now. It has been wonderful having him around! I love it so much.
Mila, my sister-in-law was more afraid of having an epidural than delivering a baby, too. She had four kids naturally. When she was pregnant with her first, she told me about a breathing technique that she intended to use for pain management during delivery. I laughed out loud. I didn’t mean to, it just happened. It was so rude of me. She forgave me for it. Anyway, she did it. Amazing!
Ladies who don’t use the pain medication during delivery are seriously amazing women!
Miss Lovisa
I had a very unlikely “wake up” call earlier last week. While eating my lunch at work I was listening to one of my favorite comedians Chris Porter. In a bit he was talking about men getting emotional. He said men don’t deal with infatuation very well. Towards the end of the bit he explained the different between infatuation and crazy.
“Here’s a good test fellas between infatuation and crazy. Infatuation is when you think about a girl a lot, wonder what she’s doing, kinda wish you were involved. Crazy is when you go find out.”
So at least I am not crazy lol
Congrats to Mr Lovisa. You get to see each a lot more. That’s nice. But just remind him when he wants a nice hot lunch not to try to put you in the microwave. No electromagnetic Miss Lovisa. 🙂
Adam, I’m glad you’re not checking on your LO, too. The comedian is funny with his definition of crazy.
Thanks for the tip about the microwave, lol. I forgot about that incident. You made me laugh.
Last night I learned that my sister is facing 3 felonies and 4 misdemeanors for her aggressive behavior towards my family. It has been awful to watch her destroy her most important relationships. I suspect that she always had the predisposition to do the things that she has been doing, but she used to keep herself in check mostly. Lately, she is just awful. She has been very preachy. She gets ideas in her head and then demands that other people agree with her. She insults and threatens people a lot. My son said that her use of Kratom might be the reason she is having delusions of grandeur (that’s what my therapist calls it). She seems to think that she has an elevated status above everyone else. I don’t know how to explain it. I’m so naive to substance use that it’s hard for me to understand what is happening. I heard that she behaved similarly to what she is doing now when she used to drink alcohol. She says she doesn’t use alcohol anymore that she uses marijuana and kratom instead. Anyway, her behavior is shockingly bad. We had a family meeting last night (of course she wasn’t present). My step-mom said, “What [sister] did to [Lovisa] is absolutely unforgivable. I can’t imagine anyone doing that to their enemies let alone their sister.” I said, “With all due respect, [step-mom] I appreciate what you’re saying, but [sister] has done so many despicable things to me, I don’t know which one you’re talking about.” My brother interrupted and laughing he asked, “Are you talking about the time [sister] made a fake dating profile and sent a man to [Lovisa’s] house to pick up his date?” I don’t think my step-mom was talking about that specific incident, but the conversation changed so I didn’t find out which thing bothers her the most. I know which one bothers me the most, but I’d rather not share it.
Anyway, I think we might make some progress now that law enforcement is helping us. Hopefully, my sister will take this opportunity to change course and get some mental health help.
Today is going to be bright and sunny! I intend to enjoy it!
Yeah, stalking your crush was so much harder pre-social media. You actually had to do physical surveillance on them.
Back in the day. One of the optional requirements for 1st class was to successfully stalk someone on a hike. If they found you 3 times, you failed.
I failed but I learned some things.
I was in a talk by NSA. The guy said they love today’s technology. He said that if they wanted to plant something on someone’s car in the old days it took a team of 3 people. One to follow the person into a store, one to plant the device, and one to keep lookout in the parking lot.
Now, they just hack the car or cell phone from their desk. If you can beam it, they can hack it.
Good point, L.E. “Crazy is when you go find out… On social media.” Are most of us a little crazy?!
“Are most of us a little crazy?!”
Some of us more so than others.
In college, there was a girl I really liked. I refer to her a The Crush in old LwL posts. I had a friend who was a dispatcher for the campus police. They had access to information about students, like SSN, make and model of their car, their license plate number, what lot they park in, and home and school addresses. Even better, they had access to someone’s class schedule. When I wanted to “accidentally” run into The Crush, I’d look at her schedule and I’d know where she was and where she would be going.
It was handy having friends in interesting places.
I didn’t use it often but I did use it. Once she positively shut me down, I stopped.
Ha, i think the pre-social media stuff was mostly o.k. within boundaries. It’s normal to have a crush, try and find a way to get to know them or ask them out in a way that isn’t a complete cold approach.
It’s then normal to get over it after a couple of months or not be totally destroyed, and get over them and not constantly check what they are doing.
During my first experience of limerence I had a big crush on a girl on my course, and checked several times to see whether she had signed up for my courses. When we were finally on a course together I did a normal deliberate get to her know her, but relatively gradually, then ask her out. She had a boyfriend she hadnt mentioned, but was obviously keen. We bumped into each other a few years later randomly in London when LE 2 was still pretty brutal, but fading, but I was in a relationship with now SO. She actually then chased me for a bit within the norms of me being in a relationship.
Anyhow, another private detour from me, but at least with a point. The weirdest thing was how conscious I was at the time of the difference between that normal, nice crush, and limerence, and understanding that something totally weird was going on with me, but not understanding how to do anything about it and thinking somehow it was connected to ‘love’.
So in a long way round, no, I think you can do things that are a little risque for a crush and not be crazy.
I think however social media massively lowers the barrier for most types of behaviour, so normal behaviour can easily tip over.
Social media is an interesting question. Just what is appropriate and inappropriate behaviour when Googling someone or looking them up on social media? My current LO is a very private person in some ways, but I found out quite a bit about her on Facebook, LinkedIn and Google. I personally think this is fair game if the information is publicly available, but you have to be careful what you let slip when talking to LO or others. For instance, I know what my LO does for a living, but I don’t think she knows that I know. I also found out that one of her family members recently passed away. I mentioned it to a friend the other day when I’d had a little too much to drink. I sincerely hope he doesn’t let anything slip and mention it to her because I wasn’t supposed to know that. If you’re going to go snooping for information, you have to be careful what you say to people!
Lovisa,
I learned a lot about breathing and other stuff in my prenatal course before my first birth, but when the time came I was basically just screaming my head off and beating everyone away who tried to touch me😂😂but that was because it went so fast.
Congratulations for Mr Lovisa! Sounds great! I hope the situation with your sister will de-escalate soon and she‘ll accept some help and you will be safe!
Hi Mila. I could not find a reply option to your posts, so I am posting here.
Looks like almost all of what you just said resonates with me!
In the past, my LO and I have used each other for constant validation. If I push back now, what would LO feel? Would she be hurt, but eventually be okay? These feelings are normal, but I guess that we need to fix ourselves first, right? Continuing down the LE was making me spiral towards depression, so that was very alarming. I had to take serious action, like other friends have said – hit the emergency break.
Though there has been no disclosure from either side, I am sure our emotions have leaked out on various occasions. In any case, I feel that disclosure can only make things worse. I think there is another post on LwL on disclosure, and the various scenarios mentioned there are pretty scary (LO complaining to boss at work, to SO at home).
Though uncertainty fuels limerence, I am slowly learning to live with the uncertainty. There are many other things in life that are uncertain, this is additional.
It is good to see that you have dialled down your virtual interactions with LO. I am sure it will help you in the long run. Delaying replying to texts will help a lot.
In my case, LO and I were/are not friends. We have not really had long/deep talks. So, in that sense, there is no pressure of ending a friendship.
Anyways, my mantra now is – make use of NC/LC, do not seek LO, invest my time in work, play, hobbies.
Lets see how I hold up if/when there is some warm and fuzzy LO interaction. Will let you all know how that goes.
Take care!
Hi ABCD,
I think you are doing very well and have grasped the most important truths! Living with uncertainty is the hardest, and accepting it is a very big step towards freedom. Also, I agree that you need to fix yourself first, especially when you were in danger of depression.
If the next interaction feels warm and fuzzy isn’t completely out of your control. I wouldn’t either expect warmth nor indifference, just stay awake and observe. Most of the fuzziness is in your own mindset.
I think you are on a good way, I wish you patience and good luck!
Thanks Mila!
Since the LO effects are wearing off (I think) for whatever reason(s), I am feeling better mentally. I am using this to guide myself further along, telling myself that I will be feeling even better in the future. For example, if I do not get affected next time I see LO and there is no interaction, like if she ignores me, and I am still cool with it, then that would be a huge step forward.
Another good thing that is happening is that I am now (over) analysing LO lesser and lesser. I used to do that a lot in the past.
Hang in there, you got this!
„ Another good thing that is happening is that I am now (over) analysing LO lesser and lesser.“
I think that’s a very important sign that you are getting better! The less analyzing and rumination, the less hooks this LE has got on your brain.
@ABCD
“I am using this to guide myself further along, telling myself that I will be feeling even better in the future”
Based on our last conversation and your statement here, I need to clarify myself. One CANNOT tell in advance or WILL how one is going to FEEL, it’s beyond our control! One can choose what to THINK in any circumstance.
The Stoic way is to tell oneself, “I know the bad/worse/worst WILL come sooner or later, I will feel bad/worse again. However, I’ll just calmly WATCH my feelings/mental pains coming and going (mindful meditation)”. Actively resisting feelings/pains is FUTILE.
Stoic is about mentally preparing for/assuming the possible worst to come and what to do to cope with it when it arrives (100% Stoic assumes it’s already here and actively deal with it). Based on Jung, The Unconscious works AGAINST whatever one wishes/wills most.
I can’t convince you about Jung’s theory, but I can testify my own experiences in xLE — I anticipated (almost terrified) the worst about what xLO would say and do at work (to me and others). Then in my dreams, for so many times, he just appeared as a white knight, interacted with me as I ideally wished in the dream-reality, and even more than I could have wished, and “save” my mind/psyche, — a damsel in life-time cptsd stresses”.
In the hindsight, I understand now how my cptsd was eased gradually and almost totally healed finally, through many powerful dreams and my own mental work on it. Between the logical mind and Unconscious, who is more powerful⁉️
Just a penny of my thought. I wish you continue feeling better and better.
To complete my lengthy updating here,
I want to add further, that I’m aware that he might be a bit neurodivergent, that he simply reacts a bit differently and cannot instinctively see what is needed by the other person. I used that a lot in understanding that he simply cannot be the person I thought he was, that he gives as much as he can give in terms of honesty and talks, and this helped me overcome limerence too.
But isn’t he still an adult with a capacity of learning? After a certain time of blaming all on his probable neurodivergence and absolving him, I have to say, I still think he could do more than sit back and say „that’s just the way I am“ if he really wanted to. Maybe he is not capable of that, but then he really must be a very restricted person, and I don’t believe that, I believe that there’s still a smidgen of smugness and laziness about it to stay that passive but expecting action from the other side, and just state that you simply are like that and cannot help it.
In the end it’s all helping me to overcome last specks of too fond feelings. And I hope that once I get the balance back I hope we can be good friends again on his own restricted base but with all the positive sides he also has, loyalty, calmness, steadfastness, enjoying little things etc.
Hi thoughtful and caring Mila,
From my perspective, you still analyze your LO (still in your LE) from your stand points, that it seems you do not completely understand neurodivergent, or understand them to a certain degree. However, you can’t fully accept it, because it’s not how your mind functions.
As long as you prefer/insist on your “belief”, it’d be harder to get your desired peace to be a good, long/short distance friend to him.
Their neural/thinking/feeling system is not “restricted” (by their definition) but wired in particularly, squared ways. Some neurodivergent can recognize their own special ways, some are unaware or uncomprehending how a non- neurodivergent mind works. They simply live/behave the ways they feel most “natural” and comfortable. Trust me, there is little laziness or sense of intentional “entitlement” on their end….
Hope you rest well in your break. 🫂
Well, Snow, but neither you nor me know if he‘s really neurodivergent. I‘m not a friend of these labels anyway, I just used it to explain some things for myself, but I’m not at all sure if he fits these labels or not. It’s my personal instinct, knowing him for a long time that he would be able to change a bit more and isn’t to be absolved completely from all responsibility to act caring or thoughtful. Also I think it still does help me more and gives him more credit to assign him some responsibility for our friendship. Each his/her own way to cope…
And thanks for your good wishes❤️!
Mila,
Precisely, we both don’t know any other human being fully, particularly that all of us evolve in either short or over time. I was just speculating from what I read from your posts.
For me, it would be controlling or anxiety-driving to “assign” any responsibilities to my short or long-term friends (ONLY expectations of any sort bring pains. ) I do not have that right (sometimes in the past I foolishly wished and unwisely acted upon the desire) at any given moment. The most beneficial ways, IMO, is to cherish what still remains in the friendship after it has changed/evolved. Nothing in Life ever stands still….
I was just presenting my thoughts, not trying to meddle your own way of coping and solving your unique concerns. Wish you more peace🕊️
Hi Snow,
I know what you mean and you are of course right. Only in reality I’m not there yet. For me to reach that relaxed state of just cherishing the friendship, the friendship needs to change/evolve first, and me too. I do want to reach that state in the future, but I feel I have to get a healthy distance first. The way he keeps texting daily about superficial stuff and himself doesn’t feel healthy to me.
I also do think that there is responsibility for a friendship on both sides, or, if you want, there should be no responsibility or expectation on either side – when I choose to distance myself he shouldn’t expect otherwise either, after that rule🤷🏻♀️.
Mila,
I totally agree that a healthy distance is needed in your situation. If you feel bothered by his daily texting, then decline or stop altogether responding for a while. Whatever or however he would respond your decision IS HIS BUSINESS, beyond your control. Between your peace of mind and your caring for him, you may have to choose only one: ask your own Athena’s advice. Remember DrL’s blog? https://livingwithlimerence.com/who-is-to-blame-for-limerence/
I agree with you that a good friendship entails a certain degree of loyalty, but it can’t be EXPECTED or compelled, it’s willingly and pleasantly given by both sides. If a friendship comes with a required or expected or entitled responsibility, then it would a burden; no one would like that. Only when mutual willing “responsibility” coexist, a worthy and harmonious friendship would last.
Human relationships of any kind cannot run satisfactorily under any forms of contracts or rules, our emotions don’t work by manmade rules/laws..
I agree, Snow!
If it’s meant he’d always be your friends, he will be there even if you cut off all communication, FOR A WHILE.
If he walks away, then it’s NOT meant that you two could remain lifetime friends. C’est LE vie.
Do you think you could let go off your wish to “control” a little bit and let time/fate decide for once? 😊
But not here;)
I think it’s a good thing that I control the contact right now. I felt long enough out of control when I was limerent.
I won’t abruptly stop contact, I‘m just reducing it to a healthy amount. He will still be there.
Hi Mila,
I saw all the messages from you and LWL pals today and so here I am to say hello to you and all.
I’ve not caught up on all the messages the last few weeks, but reading your post today, you are on a good path and doing the right thing. It seems you are simply tweaking the dynamics to a more appropriate friendship and frequency and not doing anything radical or being rude in my view.
I get the people pleaser dilemma , I recognise that in myself.
No, you are a woman with a lot in your life and he should be grateful ( I’m sure he is) for the level of authentic friendship you already consistently offer and bring to him 121, and also to the family with hosting get togethers and extending this beyond to others too !
If he wants more than you are offering right now he can seek some additional source/s for evening distractions/validation outside of just you and his family. But I think he may simply be operating subconsciously and is just so used to relying on you to fulfil his needs because he absolutely trusts you, and dare I say it, he may be a bit lazy or lacking awareness to actually reflect or question the situation on why he is wanting so much frequent contact.
So your current ” distancing “(adjustment or realignment, maybe a more appropriate words ) is simply influencing the friendship in the rightful direction.
If it were in the workplace or in the military I would say you are demonstrating great leadership qualities.
I’ve been away as you noticed, went far away which I needed. Will update in due course….. 😘
Hi Imho,
You are still there!! I‘m glad. It’s good to hear from you.
I hope you had a good time being far away! Sounds exciting.
Thanks for your input, I also think I’m doing the right thing, only sometimes I have to check my angry or riled reaction to some texts because I’m not being fair then. I‘m getting better at it but sometimes my suddenly surfacing aggression leaks a bit through. He‘s so obvious when he wants a pat on the head, and then I refuse to give it to him. I don’t want to give him his daily dose of validation anymore, I‘m not there yet to say, who cares, I’ll humor him if it makes him feel good (I don’t mean something inappropriate, I mean compliments etc he‘s fishing for).
But as I say, I‘m getting better and more relaxed about it.
I hope you are in a good place concerning your LO and generally in your life! But please, don’t feel obliged to give an update or write here!
Thanks Mila,
One thing I’m trying to do that I learnt recently is “being comfortable with feeling uncomfortable”.
I have a tendency to people please, avoid conflict or what makes me uncomfortable, but long term this doesn’t work for you or others, so what you are doing is directionally right even if it feels uncomfortable or your LO rile/angers you.
In time I’m sure you can just let his yearning for a ‘pat on the head’ just wash over without triggering any emotional response.
Thank you for your words on sharing/ not sharing my situation. I’m mostly good, especially after my break away from the norm. I recommend it .
Hi Imho,
we seem a bit similar here. I hate conflicts and not being ok with everyone. I feel the urge to be liked again by the person I’ve a conflict with immediately, I cannot sit with it very well. The problem is to recognize at which time my bad gut feeling is only people-pleasing and which time it’s a correct instinct.
Usually I tend to follow my gut feelings because they are often on spot, but when it comes to conflict and the possibility of people liking me less, I‘m not sure, I turn into something like a scared child and don’t trust my own instinct about what the right thing to do is.
Not necessarily in this case of current LO, but for example my LO 1 (still a co-worker) has decided not to greet me anymore, and it might be because I was quite cool the last times we met, or any other reasons, and although he‘s a quite obnoxious person and I don’t even like him anymore, that kind of vexes me. I have to be good with everyone.
„In time I’m sure you can just let his yearning for a ‘pat on the head’ just wash over without triggering any emotional response.“
If I would be truly independent I would give him his pat on the head here and there, why not. But at the moment it feels (to me) that I have given him so much the last months/year in terms of validation and patting, and got always less back – I know one shouldn’t count and expect things back, but well, that‘s my bad side, so to say, at the moment I don’t manage to be magnanimous, I just don’t want to give that to him anymore. That’s what I call the last residue of my LE, this feeling of „not anymore“ and a bit of retaliation,of course that affects the friendship and isn’t ideal, but it seems to be a necessary phase for me. Once I’m over that the friendship might be lessened, but maybe we‘ll manage to get back to a relaxed and warm relationship. If not, so be it.
That’s a true sign that limerence is over- I couldn’t have born this prospect of losing this friendship a couple of months ago.
Sorry to have gone on. A lot of working in my brain at the moment.
I guess it’s no use asking what you did out of the norm since you won’t want to reveal too much- was it work related or did you take time off work?
Hi Mila,
it’s very intriguing how we go into this level of analysis isn’t it. I wonder if any of our LOs dig below the surface and explore and analyse their cerebral functions and emotions as we do …..
(Maybe best not to seek the answer to that one ! )
My break away was from everything – a completely different place and vibe. It took awhile to disconnect especially from work but then I just stopped technology as much as possible, no phone calls, no texting, no social media, no work, no news updates. I just let my mother know I was ok from time to time. I just lived where I was in that moment with the people and unique environment, which was so different to my normal life/ COO ( s’pheonix callout) .
I recommend to anyone to do it if you can, even for a week.
And on this learning I have gained, I would say to just be cool about your MFF / exLO interactions. To trust your instincts on your responses and frequency. And as you are a natural people pleaser, you are probably not coming across as curt in your messages as much as you think you are.
I just saw your new post about this potential new working arrangement again!
I’m sure you can deal with it, whatever the outcome will be. You can deal with that in due course, if needed, and not to concern yourself this weekend.
Imho,
So glad to see your “face” 👻 again after a long while and hear your “outlandish experience❓” — somewhere very different from your COO — country/culture of origin. Did you go to a place where there is actually no/litter technology, or did you purposefully cut it off?
Sometimes, muting all “buzzes” of technology is only way to acquire some inner peace and mental clarity. It’s great that you feel so refreshed after a few weeks of out-of-COO “retreat”!
Mila’s phone/texting and her analysis of MFF are the buns on a bamboo steamer again… 😮💨 (*sigh*). I’ll conjure a personalized prayer for her during my meditations.
Hi Imho,
that sounds very interesting. Was it a retreat or cloister or something? Don’t answer if you don’t want to. Even your SO couldn’t reach you?
Sometimes I think it would be so cleansing and restful to do something like that. I’m not sure I wouldn’t worry the whole time what’s going on with the kids etc🙈of course everything would be fine,but to quiet my mind would be hard, as you might guess from my gibberish here this weekend.
You are right, I just leave it be and will deal with it when the time comes. As I wrote to Bewitched, it was just a shock yesterday to know we will spend so much time together after all the work to distance myself from him. But it’s all in the mindset. I’m quite hopeful that until then everything will be more normal and I’ll actually enjoy having him there. I just have to bring him down from the notion of me as his second wife that he seems to have. He was always like that on business trips, being my shadow until the point of annoyance, but when I made a move to extricate myself he was ok with it without any rancour.
We will manage.
But I definitely have to stop thinking of him/this so much, be it in a negative and non-limerent way or not, it’s as unhealthy as being limerent.
Snow, I have no idea what you mean by buns in a steamer thing. I apologize if I go on too much. No need to pray for me, I know I’ll be able to sort it myself, it was just a blow yesterday and now I’m already partly recovered and back on track to a equanimous mindset regarding XLO.
@Mila,
“Buns on a bamboo steamer” means some leftover is been heating up (again).…
Please no need to apologize, not to me at least. I just felt sorry that you were driven up and down, rarely had enough peaceful time. LwL is a place for all of us to find our individualist ways, respectively, to reveal, talk, discuss, rant, bellow… to ease our LE pains or stress.
LwL is a sanctuary, a truly Buddhistic temple for every Limerent/LO ghost here. Thanks to Dr L!
Well, Snow,
I had this suspicion that you didn’t mean a nice thing with it. Sorry if I seem to you to reheat old stuff again and again, the main thing is that I myself know that that’s not true.
I used this site to process my LEs and I think I came a very long way. In my experience it takes time and turning things over to heal. Maybe there are people who are able to switch it off with one click or make a clean cut, I’m not one of them I need to process. But I cannot expect other people to read that into my posts that are random and sporadic,of course, and they really have to bear with me.
So maybe I will resort to a journal again in the future as not to seem to be rehashing, and only answer to other posts if I feel like it. Or maybe it’s time to go on a break here as much as I will reduce contact with XLO, could be that it would be healthy for everyone.
Mila,
You are one of posters whose messages I read and care ever since I came to this place, because you care about every ghost here and have a nonjudgmental eyes for whatever cases and try to understand their points of views, with frankness. Honestly, I am unable to do what you’ve been doing.
Regardless all the details and realistic (changing or changed) situations, in my impression, two main themes linked all your messages: your instant or lasting reactions towards texts coming from and going to MFF, and his possible personality traits, thoughts and sentimentality. In that sense, they are a “leftover” merry-go-around.
Please feel free to process them here, and ignore my big mouth. But please bear in mind, every time you jot down anything in writing, they are reinforced in someways in your unconscious, which would in return affect your logical mind/thinking.
Unlike what many people think/believe, the Unconscious is awake working 24/7, it acts not only in dreams clearly, but also in background unnoticed, when our logical mind seems to be in “control.”
WHY would you even suspect that I meant something (not nice) in my pervious messages? No need to answer, I don’t mind your misunderstanding at all — refined being 80% Stoic now… 😊
Please tell me: does Imho have a SO? I thought she did not; is my ignorance so HUGE? 😱
Sincerely wish you’re feeling more peaceful every day and every hour! 🫂
Hi Snow,
I don’t agree, neither with the leftover-merrygoround nor with the bit about reinforcing the subconscious.
And yes, I think it’s judgmental and a bit nasty to write in a post to third person about me „heating up leftovers“ with an exasperated Emoji. You might not have meant it that way, but it came over this way.
I don’t want to fight and am not angry since I guess you didn’t mean it as mean as it sounded, and it’s natural that you are sometimes far from the spot since we are all so different and living such different lives.
I guess I‘ll take a bit of a time out here now though.
All the best for you!
Snow,
On your message to Mila, you include a question :
“Please tell me: does Imho have a SO? I thought she did not; is my ignorance so HUGE?”
I feel that it is for me to answer this one.
Yes, I have an important and long term SO. I am generally vague about my situation here on LwL for good reasons as I’m sure you understand , so you are forgiven for not recalling all my story.
My LO is long distance connected to my workplace. He is not a direct coworker but distant coworker I guess.
I may see him again at this year end, or it may not happen. so full on uncertainty at this time, not easy !
I shared this same story over a year ago here on LWL.
I met my LO last time f2f over a year ago now. In the lead up and in the aftermath I was all over the place and the LwL community helped me get through it.
So be prepared, if the f2f does take place soon then I’m gonna be here here again seeking advice probably.
What I’m trying to say is many (let’s be honest, most) of us limerents are (or have been) going in circles or more accurately in a snail shell of round and round but getting nearer to an ultimate exit.
(Can anyone remember who came up with this excellent Snail shell analagy ?)
It was me, Imho;)
Hi Mila,
I’m not taking any sides especially as Ive been away and trying to stay chilled out.
I would just say don’t let a single remark influence your posting here.
You receive many replies to your messages from across the LWL community, that tells you a lot about the engagement, care and empathy doesn’t it….
And hopefully those replies mostly help you in return and I’m sure the conversation also helps many others too, who post here (and those who are here but stay in the shadows)
Imho 😘
Mila,
I put the explanation right after emoji 😮💨 as *sigh* I was sighing and feeling compassion for your vexation. I mentioned to imho, because I know we two, along with several other, really care for your case, although in different styles perhaps.
I’m sorry for how you feel right now, and I know we are all very different in our mindset. I do not apologize for my frank opinions expressed in a sympathetic manner, which are not judgments but one perspective from different angle looking at the pink elephant. Or we say in COO, an “outsider” looking at an “insider” walking/struggling in a foggy mountain. You or anyone else certainly could agree or disagree with my understanding of how conscious or unconscious work, which needs to be verified by every individual.
As you rightfully noted, my intention meant good, but I’m aware that good intentions do not always necessary lead to intended “positive” results; I will just shot up my mouth in your case.
Wish you a speedy out of your LE and more peace, Mila 🕊️
Sorry to crash the party but as someone who has talked to you both (Mila and Snow) a fair bit these last couple of months, I hope you don’t mind.
Mila, I just know Snow didn’t mean you any harm. She is very much a fan of your responsible handling of your LE and the help you give the rest of us, as I have seen mentioned in many posts. She often uses colourful and non-literal language to describe things and occasionally it might not quite land.
You haven’t been afraid Mila to give me the odd wake up call or reality check when it seems I need it (always appreciated too – I am here to learn). What is clear I think to Snow and others who follow your posts, me included, is that agonising over texting behaviour between you and LO, is a recurring theme for you over many months, maybe longer. Despite the fact that none of us will meet in real life, we get quite invested in others’ stories and limerence recovery. Snow’s perspective is that the more we battle something, the harder it clings on. With me, she has said things like (as have you) “LaR don’t you ever find anything negative or unlikeable to say about your LO?”. The foundation for this is that as long as I keep up this internal battle of thinking everything about LO is great, I will remain in limbo. At a guess I think she feels similar about your texting with LO. As long as you make it a battle, your brain keeps up the battle ‘for sport’. We LwL friends really want to see you succeed in getting out the other side and worry that this battle over texting is what holds you back.
Your perspective of course – a totally reasonable one – is that you want to ramble or rant it out here to help process it. This place has – for me anyway – been a million times better than previous journalling of my LE because I have you lot to sense check me. Occasionally I get a total curveball of a response that prickles me at first, but then I think more ‘why did they say that?’. And I realise sometimes it’s because I am leaking stuff that I can’t see.
We are all in different boats, but in the same storm. We have much to offer each other. Peace in our times please if there is a way we can achieve that between you🕊
Hi Snow and Lim-a-Rant,
Thanks for your compassionate answers. Written stuff goes without any tone of voice or context, and it seems I interpreted it completely the wrong way. I still think it’s important to point out what came over offensive to me.
Please don’t shut up Snow, I know you mean good, but it might be good for me to shut up for a while.
It used to help me here, but at the moment it feels suddenly just like another field of tiring but necessary self-assertion.
In my work I have to do a lot of maneuvering between sensitive souls, I have to stay relaxed and neutral and benevolent all the time for the colleagues that are working under me.
I have to take a lot of „he didn’t mean it like that, don’t get upset“ or „listen to me, I have the only right opinion“ and have to assert myself without getting unfair or upset, while everyone else has more leeway in getting upset or unfair because it has less repercussions. So many people think they know best, and so many people don’t think before they express themselves how it would come over for the other person. Me included, probably.
My contact with LO is mainly by text, so naturally I write about texts. I appreciate you both worrying about me, but I still think you are completely not right concerning your assessment of my progress through writing about these texts.
But you both seem to not agree and then I feel I cannot keep writing freely here about it. It’s of course your right to think so, but then it’s also my right not to feel comfortable about it anymore.
This is not meant as a reproach, I just want to explain my reaction in detail. I appreciate you very much and of course there‘s peace🙏🏻but here I allow myself to be a bit egotistical and just pull back when I want to.
Now that came over wrong too.
What I want to say is, it’s natural that if you post on an internet community site, there will naturally be opinions, and people cannot guess if you want advice this time, or a pat on the head or just nothing beyond „uh-huh, ok“.
So I’m wrong in posting here when I only want to process and am not ready for someone interpreting it in a way that I don’t agree to. Basically, it’s my fault for posting and then expecting only answers fitting my own opinion.
But at the moment it seems I need to go my own way here in handling my almost dead LE, and then it’s not the right thing to post here at the moment.
Apologies to all I might have upset, I do appreciate this site and posting here, but I guess I‘ll stop updating unless I really want advice. My bad.
Hi Mila,
You should feel absolutely that you can just spew out your thoughts here. Repeatedly if that”s what you need. These are not said as empty words (I don’t do empty words) but if I could nominate a community contributor of the year, it would be you. I got more from talking to you as I went through the darkest part of my LE earlier this year, about how to start moving on, than from anyone. So this is your place to take something back, however you want that.
Please, please don’t feel you shouldn’t write about texting him again. As you say, it is a mainly text based relationship, so that’s natural.
Ideas FWIW – if you just want responses from specific posters, mention their names / ‘call them in’ directly. If I don’t want advice just put a disclaimer in like that – I sometimes put “not asking for anyone to solve this, just telling it how it is”, “please leave aside …” etc.
The other side of this is that you should feel absolutely that you can pull back from LwL, as a break or more permanently. But this should be only because/when it is right for you, not when something said has upset you. And also if you do stick around, that you don’t feel obliged to write replies in 5 minutes and have everyone rely on you as ‘agony sister’.
Certain people end up always getting that ‘relied on’ role. In my real life I find I am treated a bit like this. My mother lives her life being relied on totally by others and doing little for herself. I would hazard a guess (slap
me or throw a brownie at me if I’m wrong) that your life gets like this. I hear you so much about how you have to be at your work – smiling and balanced and calm and there to solve other people’s problems, mediate etc. I say this from a place of empathy as my working life is much the same.
LwL could feel like an extra pressure like that if we’re not careful – another way to be relied on and obliged. My SO (obviously) doesn’t know I post on here and so apart from odd days, I cram it into early mornings and late nights (I am in basically the same time zone as you) – I expect that’s all the same for you. I recognise all those challenges. It can be hard to make the time.
So that my thoughts are balanced from what I wrote last night, let me explain where I do understand you have progressed to. You have let go of the limerence and for the first time in ten years are limerence free! This alone is massive!! Being here helped you do that. You have spent time working out that the friendship you want with him is a lower level than you thought when in the height of LE. You know for yourself what text-based relationship (less frequent, less shallow, warmer) would work with him to move forwards. The annoyance that is coming across in your posts is 1. with him, 2. with yourself for feeling annoyed with him, not more neutral (especially when you bring his possible neurodiversities into your thoughts). You are frustrated that he doesn’t, or can’t, understand the text based relationship the same, and that he carries on pinging you day to day for validation despite the fact you aren’t his SO. It is frustrating because it is going in a loop, and not the loop you want. Sorry if I have interpreted anything wrong there.
NOW – I am going to be true to my word. I *do* have advice and suggestions on exactly what I’d do next in your situation. But you haven’t asked for it, so I’m not going to give it unless you say explicitly that you want it.
Mila you’re a great member of this forum. If stepping back is right for you, do it, but only for your own reasons. The other bits can be got past. And if you do stay or come back, then do that on your terms too.
Hi Lim-a-Rant,
You really had me laughing out loud right now. I recognize a master at work- nicely built up, an accurate summary of my last progress and then dangling the promise of advice but not revealing, a true cliffhanger!
Of course I‘m curious now, dish it out!
Snows post I took offence from wasn’t advice and it wasn’t for me, it was speaking to another person about me, that was part of what offended me, although I understand now that it wasn’t meant by her as condescending as it sounded.
So I’d be happy to hear your advice so that I can disagree with it and sulk (only kidding).
Mila,
Ha!! Yeah I can craft an argument sometimes!
What I’d do is be really brave and communicate to him why the volume of texting every day is difficult. Don’t (obviously) mention the now-done limerence, but more work with that you’re busy, are juggling a lot in work and life and struggling to respond so regularly due to other pressures (and maybe also struggling to know what to say, but I am less sure about that bit). Then in the same message very clearly emphasise that you *do* still want to be friends and how your texting relationship could change for the better to make that work. Set out your stall, regain control of it for yourself. If that means a spell of NC or that he sulks and doesn’t initiate contact, then just initiate it yourself as and when you are comfortable. If he is worth keeping, he’ll eventually understand and come to a compromise with you about it.
Or – just don’t reply for a while (I mean several days, maybe weeks, more than hours – wherever you want the frequency to land) and let him get the hint that way. Slow down the frequency so that it reaches an equilibrium that you’re happy with. If you think he doesn’t have the understanding capacity to think over and take on board the route above, try this one instead.
I am always wary of dishing out advice to others. I don’t have the full detail or the feelings of people involved, so I dislike the idea you might do anything based on my suggestion and then it backfire. It’s your life. Please feel free to hit me back up in a reply with any reasons why you think any or all of that wouldn’t work, if you do feel that! I am happy to dialogue with you about it, or not.
(I very nearly auto-completed this message with my email address instead of my ‘name’, and blew my cover. That’s what I mean about not worrying about rushing replies!).
Hi Lim-a-Rant,
„so I dislike the idea you might do anything based on my suggestion and then it backfire.“
Yeah, I will sue you for sure if it won’t work!
No, thank you very much, it’s very good advice and the second is the approach I’m taking at the moment anyway.
For the first, I’m not sure if that wouldn’t backfire. He is not at all used to serious talk about stuff like that and would maybe take it as a reproach or that I want to end the friendship, no matter how I express myself.
Also, I tried to initiate open talk about our friendship or his work situation or whatever in the last year with almost no response, I don’t feel like initiating honest talk again by announcing something like that, he might feel pressurized again or whatever, most certainly I won’t get a response where I can see if he understands what I mean or is hurt.
That’s frankly too much hassle for me right now.
He can always ask why I reduce contact so much, I certainly did ask him sometimes when he didn’t respond for a while back when I was limerent, so it shouldn’t be too awkward for him to ask if he cares.
Maybe his neurodivergence won’t let him? But then that‘s how it is.
He hasn’t texted since Friday evening, my responses to both the news about the business trip and the music link being appropriate but not enthusiastic, I think he noticed and maybe he decided himself to take the foot off the texting pedal now. I feel quite good with that, and I follow the advice from Bewitched and Imho just not to worry about this blasted trip now.
Thanks for that, Lim-a-Rant.
I might still not update here like I used to, because now I really honestly think it might have been too much.
@Mila,
We have all credited or referred each others’ points of views in our posts with/to others. To me, it’s an indirect way to thank and appreciate those views that have positively affected me or others in our shared journey to curb/remove limerence — “against the same storm in our individual boat”.
You’re right that in my post to Imho I did not try to give advice to you (I already did directly to you prior to that: going NC on texting for just A WHILE, but you said you could not do it for fearing hurting your MFF). Seeing Imho (and Bewitched) as your close, helping friends here, I felt totally at ease to express my sincere sorrow to Imho (I was sure she felt the same for you) with a “Sigh” emoji: Mila is on the burner again. That’s all it was.
I’m glad to see a highly diplomatic hand/mouth (I agree with LaR’s approaches) is more effectively helping you. Sorry, I lack communication and English skills in general, in addition to the cultural differences between the West and East (I grew up used to taking effective bitter herbs/medicines without ever putting any sugar in them)…. As you see, when I meant one thing, it was often taken as another, thus I’m more than often in a no-man’s land, which is okay, I assure you. ☺️
In this faceless ghost land, with so many different personalities and cultural/individual backgrounds, misunderstandings are natural and ought to be accepted as a “norm/default”. What counts most importantly should be INTENTION. Our shared LE pains come from our individual limerence, not from any ghosts here. Despite DrL and most of us try to help each other, the ultimate work/effort and healing process come from within each individual “ghost”.
Like Trifles, when I came here first, I thought it’s like a Wall, DrL posts his feature articles first, then everyone pin up their reaction posts on the Wall, read some relevant ones, and leave returning to their own struggles with their realistic LE. I was not asking or expecting any advice, nor thought my opinions would matter a bit. I did not realize it was a community (which I was quite “allergic” due to COO), in which there are posters heartily caring about other ones, until I encountered Call me Cordelia and Nisor who did not give up her efforts to help everyone with her big heart. Later, I realized that my careless ramblings had inadvertently carried some “responsibilities”, even turning some ghost upside down or inside out… 🙃
Mila, thank you for letting me know why you felt offended by my caring intend. I will be careful with my cultural or analogical references in the future if I open my big mouth again.
Hope you feeling calmer and better. 🫂
❤️ 🐌!
@Imho,
Thank you for clarifying your situation. Truthfully, I don’t remember I ever knew your full story. I came in when you were talking about meeting your LO in a trip abroad and how it went with his SO around. I know clearly that your LO is a long-distance colleague, and you missed another conference where he would be.
Your SO was rarely mentioned and you just mentioned your mother during your “retreat”, so I took it for granted that you did not have one. Sorry about the error.
Hi Imho! Hope that the time off really helped you, and that you’re doing well. No pressure to update!
Hi ABCD ! I appreciate your reply very much and the community here.
I’m so glad to read how well you are doing too.
Gaining new experiences in new places and meeting new people really brought me perspective and re-balanced me.
Thank you.
Hey, just wanted to say thanks to everyone who wrote to me up above – so many good words of support and good ideas. I really appreciate you all! I’m not able to see my therapist anymore so I have literally no one in my life to talk to about my limerence, and it’s a pretty lonely feeling sometimes, so its really nice to feel heard and cared for here even if I’m not a very active member these days. Thank you.
I don’t really think I’d want to go on antidepressants. I’m not truly depressed, and just taking them to numb emotions doesn’t really sound like a good thing. I started thinking about it because I was just feeling pretty down and anxious recently and one of my patients was telling me about how they stopped their SSRI because they didn’t like being numbed to emotions, and I started thinking like hey, that actually sounds like it could be nice, I’ve spent 40+ years feeling strong emotions all the time, some of them not too pleasant, and it sounds kinda nice to just take a break from them for awhile. But not really, because I do feel that it’s better to experience everything fully, the good and the bad, and also I wouldn’t want to restrict my positive emotions like love for my SO and joy with my kids. And also, I really love sex, so I probably wouldn’t ever actually try a medication that causes ED for a lot of guys 🙂
I was thinking last night about how much I’m using limerence for mood regulation and how much my moods are tied to other people. When I posted a couple of days ago, I was feeling really down and upset, and it’s because my LO had been kind of cold and distant for a couple of weeks, and my SO had also been going through a little funk for a couple weeks, and I felt emotionally disconnected from both of them. Now my SO has been back to her more happy self for the past few days and her dark cloud is lifted, and then yesterday started with my LO texting me first thing in the morning and we chatted playfully by text all day and then had a long phone call after work and made plans to talk again this afternoon, and everything felt really nice and warm and connected with her again, and my mood’s been wonderful ever since (it also turned out that her withdrawal had nothing to do with me this time and was all about some issues she was facing at home and some mental health stuff she was experiencing)
I know a lot has been written on this site about the pitfalls of using limerence for mood regulation, and I’m definitely living it! I’ve managed to get myself into a situation where my mood and mental wellbeing depends largely on the mood of not one but two women, one of who has recurring depression and the other who has borderline and possibly bipolar 2. Yikes!! And then even when things are going well with both of them, I feel pretty good but still experience the nagging sense of anxiety that LO will leave me eventually, and also the frustration of never being able to have as much of her as I really want. I’m in this place with LO now where we have a real relationship that’s deep enough that severing the connection hurts a lot, but also not close enough to be fully satisfying.
But otherwise I’m just doing the best I can and I do have a lot of good things going on in my life – these days I’m sharing a couple of nice bonding activities with my older kid (including playing in a little rock band together), I’m volunteering at my younger kid’s school every week, having a lot of nice times with SO, exercising every day, eating well, involved in interesting things at work… I’ve also been intentionally trying to build up a few other friendships that I’d let lapse over the past years and been trying to increase social connections with more people. So there’s a lot of good, and a lot of purposeful living, and I guess I can just tolerate the waves of negative emotions when they come and try to remind myself that they’ll pass in time.
“One of who has recurring depression and the other who has borderline and possibly bipolar 2. Yikes!!”
I’m glad you’re seemingly doing well LiS, but you zeroed in on your Ladies’
mental issues. I hope the weather stays dry because that’s a very slippery slope.
Checking in to log my progress.
[to recap: I’m limerent for an ex-intern who waves an armload of red flags that I was colourblind to.
And I’m happily married.
I refer to my LO as MPDG.
Fortunately we are now 4 months NC.
Unfortunately, MPDG is keeping her options open and may return as a colleague when her traineeship is completed next year. But that prospect is extremely unlikely, and in any event, beyond my control.]
Most of my limerent fantasies are about disclosure, in the hope of mutual feelings.
I totally relate to Sir Marcus, nodding my head at each of those bulletpoints.
I too have a strong desire for disclosure.
In my case I do not need to do this.
I *know*, without having her confirm it, that MPDG is not experiencing limerence, from her behavioural cues.
Therefore any disclosure would be self destructive, especially in the hands of someone who has no qualms about flirting with a married man.
From a “dating perspective”, I now see many of MPDG’s intimate interactions with me as a series of playful “shit tests”.
ie boundary-pushing exercises, to determine if a potential suitor is confident enough to be her lover, or be relegated to “orbiter”.
In my case, it’s “neither”, since in most cases I refused to play along.
Anyhow, I’m now at the point where the limerent highs have disappeared.
For example, I remember that it felt amazing when she hugged me, but I no longer recall the actual feeling.
I don’t get lows either, but just feel kind of numb and demotivated at times.
I think that habit forming helps here, routines to get through the day.
I know also that I must try and break routines too, since my limerence was likely due to the need to spice up my life.
Working on it.
Now, whenever MPDG’s shadow sneaks back into my mind, I tell her “shoo, your work is done here.”
Ghostzoned,
From a “dating perspective”, I now see many of MPDG’s intimate interactions with me as a series of playful “shit tests”.
ie boundary-pushing exercises, to determine if a potential suitor is confident enough to be her lover, or be relegated to “orbiter”.
In my case, it’s “neither”, since in most cases I refused to play along.”
The ethical issue aside that you are married (I’m assuming she’s not), if she was looking to hook up with your or even go as far as to have a side relationship, how else is she going to determine if you’re willing by not testing the waters a little bit and seeing how you respond? If, once she determined you weren’t going to hook up with her, she put you in the “orbiter” category (if I’m understanding you correctly) … meaning she used you for ego validation, that’s not a nice thing to do. But since it sounds like you put up a boundary that hooking up wasn’t going to happen … your options are to continue to flirt with each other but not go further or take things down a level and just interact with each other as co-workers.
It sounds like she picked some kind of variation of the first option.
Thanks for your reply, Marcia.
Your explanation makes perfect sense, the necessity of pushing boundaries when they haven’t been defined, especially in complex dynamics involving marriage.
She did ask some questions involving my SO, tangentially about what might be tolerated (nothing quite so blatant as whether or not we have an open marriage, but specific queries eg whether or not I could give MPDG a ride home, for example).
I’ve long ago given up trying to understand women, and just accept that they will do things that perplex me.
Yes, MPDG definitely thrives on attention.
I’m sure that I gave off mixed hot/cold signals as well, otherwise she wouldn’t have had the need to test me.
Ghostzoned,
“She did ask some questions involving my SO, tangentially about what might be tolerated (nothing quite so blatant as whether or not we have an open marriage, but specific queries eg whether or not I could give MPDG a ride home, for example).”
She asked you if your wife would be ok with you giving her a ride home?
“I’ve long ago given up trying to understand women, and just accept that they will do things that perplex me.”
I can’t definitively tell you what she was doing. Some people are very flirtatious and like to go “right up the line.” Some go over the line a bit, and then hop back the other direction for plausible deniability that the line was crossed.
Flirtation doesn’t necessarily mean they want something to happen. But sometimes it does.
Personally, had it been me and I wanted something to happen, I would have come out and said something. The best approach with men, I have found, is to be pretty direct because they don’t pick up on subtlety. 🙂 However, that would depend on a lot of factors. Do I think you had left the door open for me to say something? Were our interactions intensifying in that direction? Was the moment right?
It’s not something I would just blurt out.
Hello All,
I’m new here and could do with some wisdom.
I’ve worked with Ben for the past four years, but over the last two years, something shifted between us. Ben started flirting with me, and though I wasn’t attracted to him at first, over time, I began to feel drawn to him. It started with little comments, like joking about going on a “hot date” when we passed in the corridor, or playful remarks about my appearance. He complimented me, told me I didn’t look my age, and even shared personal details about his health, including that he had prostate surgery and wouldn’t be able to perform sexually. Despite this, my attraction to him grew.
What started as light flirting turned into something deeper, though we’ve never acknowledged it directly. Ben visits my office frequently, always with an excuse—using the photocopier or asking work-related questions he could easily ask someone else. His presence has become a regular part of my workday, and I’ve found myself longing for these moments. He often engages in intense eye contact with me, and there are times when his eyes seem to search mine, like he’s trying to read my emotions. These moments feel deeply intimate, and I’ve caught myself feeling high afterward, almost euphoric. But then, not long after, he’ll mention his wife, casually dropping comments like “when I met my wife” or talking about their wedding anniversary. Every time he does this, it feels like the air has been knocked out of me.
There’s this constant push-pull dynamic between us. When I try to distance myself emotionally—either by not engaging as much or by working from home—Ben becomes visibly anxious. He’ll come to my office repeatedly, almost desperately seeking my attention until I give in and engage with him again. But once I’m back to being warm toward him, he pulls away, mentioning his wife as if to remind me—and himself—of the boundaries he can’t cross. It’s a cycle that’s been going on for two years, and I’ve been left feeling emotionally exhausted by it.
Recently, I’ve learned that Ben is likely taking redundancy and leaving the workplace soon. The news hit me like a ton of bricks, triggering intense feelings of grief and loss. I’ve spent so much time thinking about him, analyzing every interaction, and anticipating his visits that the thought of him being gone feels unbearable. It’s like the emotional highs and lows I’ve experienced over the past two years are coming to a painful end, and I’m struggling to let go. The anticipation of his departure is filling me with dread, and I can’t help but feel devastated at the thought of losing this connection, even though I know it’s been causing me emotional pain.
I’m trying to prepare myself for life without him—telling myself that he’ll be gone and that I’ll have to move on. But my heart is clinging to the hope that maybe, in some way, he feels the same. That maybe he’s grieving too, even if he’s not showing it. Despite knowing that this dynamic isn’t healthy for me, part of me still doesn’t want to let go. Has anyone come through the other side of this and can offer advice?
Georgia,
Welcome to the Lwl forum. We are glad to have you.
From your post it appears you are exhibiting signs of being limerent for your Co-Worker. You definitely are not the first one. I am a 53 year old divorced male, who became limerent for a female Co-Worker almost half my age. Still can’t really say I’ve come completely out on the other side either, so I’m probably not the best one here who can offer advice.
It is common to become limerent for people who are unavailable. In your case, Ben is married so it probably adds to some of the allure you are feeling for him. You are experiencing all the roller coaster emotions associated with limerence, which can become mentally exhausting and draining. Couple that with the dread of him possibly leaving the office soon is putting your emotions in overdrive. Being that he seeks you out often and you engage with him is what’s keeping this flame burning so fiercely within you. Disclosure of your feelings to him will probably not make matters better and could make them worse. Yet this has been something going on between you both for over the past two years. Obviously you’ve developed a friendship there, so to dissolve it somewhat will be difficult.
However there is no happy ending here because Ben is married. From your post it doesn’t seem like he is crossing too many boundaries and simply enjoys the rapport he has with you. The casual flirting doesn’t seem much more than that, but I guess I get how that might mess with your head a little. That damn eye-contact too is very telling. (I was very much fooled by it at the height of my LE.) You do not mention if you have a SO or are married yourself, but I feel like you have personal issues going on that are causing your feelings for him to be so inflated. People become limerent for others when they are lacking something. In my case, I became limerent a few years ago when a couple relationships I had fell apart. Not to mention my divorce from over 10 years ago, a Daughter that despises me for it, and then the loss of my Mother. It was like the perfect storm to become limerent. I’ve posted all over this forum, in a number of past topics of discussion.
My best advice here is to simply not get your hopes up. He might enjoy your friendship but it may just only be that. It’s you and your feelings that are banking on the hope something will happen. This isn’t necessarily evil, but you do need to keep things in-check here so that they do not become deceitful and evil. Especially since he is married. If he hasn’t stepped too far out of line in all this time, why make things even harder now, if they don’t have to be?
I hope that one of our leading Ladies here will find this and step up. Lovisa, Marcia, Bewitched, and Mila come to mind so I hope one of them find this. In the meantime, please keep reading in the topics and engaging with us for as long as you need to.
Hi Georgia, welcome.
I can’t speak specifically about your situation, my LO has not exited my life so I am not aware of what my emotions would be in your same situation. But I can tell you that it would seem the pattern here is that if forced separation happens, and no contact ensues, the recovery can go quite quick. There have been a number of people here who seem to experience their most difficult LE emotions in the time leading up to losing their LO only to feel real relief once it actually happens.
I am hoping this is the case for you. I would encourage you to embrace the fact that your LO will be exiting your life. I don’t know you, but I suspect LO, who is unavailable but takes up so much emotional energy, may be holding you back relationally? Think of all that energy being returned to you. This may allow you the freedom to move on and live more purposefully now.
Hopefully Mila responds. She seems to be the most recent who went through something similar with her LO and as of today she would tell you she is basically over her LE.
And if Lovisa responds, she can tell you about putting your energy and focus into other things to distract you from the LE turmoil.
Georgia,
I can’t add a lot to MJ and Speedwagon’s brilliant replies, but (also from a male point of view of someone who is in Ben’s position),
I don’t think he is being that kind to you to veer between begging for your attention and then dropping his wife into conversation to remind you of boundaries. It’s Ok that he has those boundaries but shouldn’t be doing the other part as well and then shoving them in your face.
I agree with Speedwagon that using his departure as a clean break, probably no contact (hard as it would be at first) and moving on to other pursuits might help you heal the fastest. It will fill you with dread but others here will tell you it works.
All the very best 🙂
“ I don’t think he is being that kind to you to veer between begging for your attention and then dropping his wife into conversation to remind you of boundaries.”
True, but I doubt that he is doing it intentionally. I suspect he feels conflicted. He might be “leaking” his attraction and then correcting himself.
Hi Georgia,
welcome! I saw my name mentioned. I‘m sorry for what you go through. I think for this guy you might be a very nice and attractive person he works with and where he gets a daily dose of validation as an attractive male from, but it seems he wouldn’t risk his marriage for these pleasant feelings. He might have no idea what he‘s putting you through. I agree that it’s not very attractive behavior to flirt and then mention the wife as a stop signal, it looks plain egotistical and offturning.
He might not do it on purpose though, maybe he‘s just thoughtless, or he wants to pretend to himself that it’s all aboveboard and innocent – just friends, so why not mention my wife.
Still, he doesn’t want to commit or acknowledge anything, he wants to have pleasant banter with you but not really more.
So I guess the loss that in your mind is unbearable and huge might in the end prove not to be that big- something you might see when limerence dialed down a bit.
I fell limerent for a friend and co-worker when he announced that he would probably leave and then there was uncertainty for a long stretch of time if he would leave or not- pure agony for me. I couldn’t imagine working without him, I thought he was my soulmate and a unique friend whose loss I wouldn’t be able to bear. Now I see that he really is a nice guy who is a loyal friend, but not at all the ideal friend I had in my limerent mind, and I can live without him very well.
I guess it‘s the limerent habits that make this guy so unique and special in your eyes and gave him this halo of something precious and special that will be lost forever, it’s not his unique personality. All in your brain. Without your limerent brain he would just be an ordinary guy with flaws. That’s all I can say, not wanting to guess at his motives and not being sure what might work best for you in your current phase.
I wish you the best, maybe someone else who is currently still limerent might help better since it’s hard to judge what works best for you just now in this painful stage.
I do think that his leaving is a blessing in disguise. It might hurt now, but it is a way forward. Imagine keep working with him , him always leaning in and pulling back. What a waste of time,no? I do believe that it might be in the end very good for you that he leaves. He would never leave his wife and that’s it, you would just be tortured by his ongoing flirting behavior.
I‘m too blunt , sorry. I do feel with you, having been there.
I might add that for me it was important 1. to grieve for a while – imagined loss or real, a loss is to be grieved when it is felt, because the feeling is real. 2. to set a proper goodbye-let go- point in time with a last goodbye dinner and a gift that showed him how much I appreciated our time working together. After that I had the feeling of closure, for myself.
I have no idea if that helps since the situations are different, my LO really was a friend and the families/SOs knew each other and were all at the goodbye dinner etc.
But maybe you can think about what would give you a feeling of closure when he leaves.
Thank you all for your welcome and thoughts on my situation.
You’re right (and I know this deep down) that this guy isn’t special – he can’t be because I didn’t feel anything for him for two years until I noticed he was attracted to me.
There’s a lot of escapism in this situation – as much as I hate the lows, I’m addicted to the highs. It makes a routine boring job more enjoyable. However, that distraction is going to be gone for good soon. I’m hoping you guys are right and the anticipatory grief is worse than the actual grief of realising he is gone for good.
Georgia x
Georgia
The LO I had was also a co-worker. Our roles were similar. I am married and she was single. Recently divorced when she joined the workforce. Similarly like you I felt nothing special for her at the start. She was just a really nice lady. Then about a year into her starting the job I was assigned to a 5 month project that I had no choice in where I worked with her one on one. And that is when the limerence developed.
I can understand your his actions. Because I did the same. I justified and pushed boundaries but didn’t cross any major lines. But there was certainly behavior on my part I would not SO to witness when I was around LO.
But I also believe that LO recognized by behavior as a “crush” and was a very morally good willed woman that didn’t do anything to encourage it, but possibly also not to discourage it. I would buy her favorite coffee from her favorite shop or always bring what she liked to the office for breakfast. Go wherever she wanted to go for lunch. Stuff like that.
Her last day at the job (she quit to go to another job) was June 3, 2022 and I haven’t seen her or spoken to her since. So I know how the loss of those incredible feelings can make you feel empty and alone. But it does get better. I am in a lot better place than I was to start. No intrusive thoughts anymore. I rarely find myself daydreaming. And it has been, around 6 months, since I last looked at her social media. Believe me it will get better.
One thing that helped me during bad periods is online gaming with our sons. We have one at home and one living on his own. Immersing myself in my hobbies helped me keep my mind occupied on things other than LO.
Good luck on your journey to recover. There is a lot of incredible people with very helpful insights, as you have already seen.
My current LO has feelings for me but makes comments to others about his SO that make it clear to me that he won’t be ditching her for me… But I don’t think he means any harm by it. We both talk about our families now and then; it’s hard not to, when they’re an integral part of your life. Your LO could have a crush on you but not intend to cross boundaries. In any case, the impending separation should eventually break the limerence.
I was once limerent for my boss–I just posted about this, I believe in the latest coffeehouse thread. We flirted all the time (this was long before the Metoo era, lol). After he quit, I was in an awful state. But the limerence finally faded. Doesn’t mean I forgot about him. Recently I found old diary entries about him and looked him up on Facebook. 60 years old and still has the cutest face and boyish grin. I almost could’ve forgotten my current LO and crushed on him again. 🙂 But it’s long in the past, a pleasant memory.
Welcome Georgia! You have come to the right place! I haven’t read the other responses yet, but I suspect you were given great support and advice.
First, I want you to understand that you and Ben are triggering feel-good hormones in each other. You are probably both somewhat addicted to those feel-good hormones which means the separation will feel somewhat like a drug withdrawal. I’m sorry, but that is the reality of this situation.
The good news is that there are other ways to access those hormones. I don’t know what you like to do, but I will tell you how I distracted myself from my LOs when I was trying to come off of my LO-highs. It’s been a while since I was in your position, but I’ll try to remember some of the stuff I did.
Running
Playing Candy Crush
Engaging in conversations with interesting people
Getting involved in the LwL community
Cryotherapy
Ice baths
Going from the hot tub to jumping into a cold swimming pool and back
Hiking
Gardening in an area that is infested with black widows
Pouring all my sexual energy into my relationship with my SO
Strengthening my healthy relationships, especially relationships with likable peers
If I think of something else, I will add it.
There are two things that I really want to address because they are common mistakes that us limerents make.
1. Try not to daydream about your LO.
2. Try not to disclose your feelings of attraction to your LO.
I’m glad you’re here, Georgia! We can walk this journey with you.
I read through the other responses and I must say that I am impressed! Isn’t it amazing that Georgia has a community of new friends who are ready to lift her up and walk a difficult journey with her? Wow! What an amazing group!
Georgia, I hope you comment some more. Please tell us if you have a significant other so that we have an idea of how to help you. If you don’t, Marcia would be a very helpful resource for you.
Best wishes!
Hello Georgia. I am sorry to hear you are having this conflicting gamut of emotions. I have gone through all that you are going through right now – the highs lows, the pushes and pulls. I guess the bottom line is that your LO has an SO, so it would be a good idea to put this LE behind you. Easier said than done, right?
Though it may not seem so now, with no/reduced contact, you WILL feel better. Right now, this uncertainty (does he like me, like I like him) may be driving you nuts, but, in my opinion, the uncertainty is better than something like disclosure, which can have devastating effects for the both of you.
My other learned friends have given some fantastic advice that you may follow. We wish you the very best!
Hi Georgia,
In answer to your question, yes I and many others have come through the other side of a workplace LE. You are very much not alone in this, and it will get better with time. Keep reading through this site as so much will resonate and make you feel better.
In my case, I was the one married and my LO was made redundant. We’d formed a very intense relationship, but as she was considerably younger than me, it was somewhat paternal and romantic – a really complex mix. I knew she wasn’t relationship material, but what I wanted more than anything was some reciprocation. That she felt the same way about me as I did with her. All the evidence seemed to suggest it did, but I had to hear it from her.
Eventually my SO said that it was “her or me” and thankfully I had enough sense left to know that it was LO that had to go. The redundancy was like a blessing, creating the opportunity for that to happen. I helped her find a new job somewhere else, she left and I purged the office of all traces of her. It took me a long time to stop thinking of her and gain a sense of normality again – maybe 12-18m after she’d left. We actually saw each other 4 years later and it was fine – I was at peace and didn’t feel in danger of falling back. I did stop short of taking up her offer of regular coffees, as my hard won freedom was not going to be risked that easily!
I hope that helps. Keep posting and working it through. The limerence is likely sending you a message that some part of your life needs fixing and Ben has highlighted it for you. Once he’s gone and you’ve grieved the loss, the next step is figuring out what that was.
@Georgia,
Welcome to the Lwl forum. We are glad to have you.
From your post it appears you are exhibiting signs of being limerent for your Co-Worker. You definitely are not the first one. I am a 53 year old divorced male, who became limerent for a female Co-Worker almost half my age. Still can’t really say I’ve come completely out on the other side either, so I’m probably not the best one here who can offer advice.
It is common to become limerent for people who are unavailable. In your case, Ben is married so it probably adds to some of the allure you are feeling for him. You are experiencing all the roller coaster emotions associated with limerence, which can become mentally exhausting and draining. Couple that with the dread of him possibly leaving the office soon is putting your emotions in overdrive. Being that he seeks you out often and you engage with him is what’s keeping this flame burning so fiercely within you. Disclosure of your feelings to him will probably not make matters better and could make them worse. Yet this has been something going on between you both for over the past two years. Obviously you’ve developed a friendship there, so to dissolve it somewhat will be difficult.
However there is no happy ending here because Ben is married. From your post it doesn’t seem like he is crossing too many boundaries and simply enjoys the rapport he has with you. The casual flirting doesn’t seem much more than that, but I guess I get how that might mess with your head a little. That damn eye-contact too is very telling. (I was very much fooled by it at the height of my LE.) You do not mention if you have a SO or are married yourself, but I feel like you have personal issues going on that are causing your feelings for him to be so inflated. People become limerent for others when they are lacking something. In my case, I became limerent a few years ago when a couple relationships I had fell apart. Not to mention my divorce from over 10 years ago, a Daughter that despises me for it, and then the loss of my Mother. It was like the perfect storm to become limerent. I’ve posted all over this forum, in a number of past topics of discussion.
My best advice here is to simply not get your hopes up. He might enjoy your friendship but it may just only be that. It’s you and your feelings that are banking on the hope something will happen. This isn’t necessarily evil, but you do need to keep things in-check here so that they do not become deceitful and evil. Especially since he is married. If he hasn’t stepped too far out of line in all this time, why make things even harder now, if they don’t have to be?
I hope that one of our leading Ladies here will find this and step up. Lovisa, Marcia, Bewitched, and Mila come to mind so I hope one of them find this. In the meantime, please keep reading in the topics and engaging with us for as long as you need to.
Hi Snow,
(tired of scrolling, I just write a new post)
I‘m not at all upset anymore, I do understand now what you meant, it’s sometimes hard to guess the right intention in written words when my mindset is completely elsewhere and vulnerable. Thanks for understanding and elaborating, let’s shake hands on that 🤝 and go on rowing our respective boats amiably next to each other!
A deal! 🤝
Hello Snow. Sorry, I am responding to your message here. I could not find a reply option below your message.
Thanks for sharing your insight about expecting the worst case scenario for LO interactions. It sounds very interesting.
Currently, I am okay with however any LO interaction will go, if at all it happens. If they are warm and fuzzy, that’s fine. If they are not, that’s fine too.
I am right now in a state of mind where LO thoughts do not bother me much. I’ll take it as a good sign.
Will keep you all updated, thanks!
Hey everyone,
Just wanted to update you. After a weekend where I was floored with heartache after learning he will be leaving and having the “wife bomb” dropped on me after the intense eye contact and repeatedly seeking me out, I went into work determined (and somewhat angry) to put my own barrier up. LO did his predictable “chase” where he keeps seeking my engagement and attention in a panicked manner, despite not saying anything concrete. I can really sense his desperation when he is like this and it makes me want to melt; however, he will likely be going soon and how will I feel then? I will be expecting some heartfelt goodbye but most likely his safety barriers will not allow him.
I’m so preoccupied with this whole situation that it’s sending me almost mental. It’s weird, like a sense of derealisation. I cannot stop searching for answers and my brain is on a constant loop weighing up his actions and what they mean. The thing is, I’m pretty sure he’s limerent also, but he’s very cautious not to cross any lines. He gets close to the line then panics and pulls back. I know there is no future but I’m at the stage where as much as I know how bad this is for my emotional health, I’m scared of letting the intensity go completely. What if I maintain my distance and he decides to give up chasing me? Deep down I will be gutted but I’m going to get hurt anyway because there’s no future for us – he’s married and so am I, plus he’s leaving. So I feel like I’m in no man’s land, destined to get hurt whatever actions I take. At least if I pull away and remain disciplined despite his chase, I will hurt but with my pride left intact.
I have honestly never felt anything this intense before.
Hi Georgia,
I think I was a bit harsh on him in my last reply to you – Lovisa’s response to it really made me think more.
He possibly is conflicted, like she said. I’ve been (still am, to a lesser extent) the person on the other (his) side of this situation – minus your impending forced work separation. It is conflicting from that side too, and you and Lovisa are probably both right that people on his side cycle between seeking attention and then putting the safety behaviours back in place.
I get (really get) how intense the feelings can be. Find as many distractions as you can, both short term ones for in the moment, and longer term ones. Both can help get the feel good chemicals flowing in other ways that aren’t LO dopamine hits. Have you got anyone in real life you can trust to talk to? And/or just journal about it or come on here to let off steam whenever you want (the second has worked better for me as I feel less alone with it that way). That has helped distract me. There are lots of us here who understand and are rooting for you.
I also found immersing in others’ stories here from some old posts and their comments made me really understand how limerence works, the different ways it can progress etc and (sadly) that it rarely has great outcomes. This has gradually helped me get my emotions back under control about it and feel a bit more comfortable day to day.
Eye contact is a thorny subject and regularly returned to here at LwL. There is an old post in the archive called ‘It’s all in the eyes’ or something like that, that might he helpful.
You need to ask yourself what your ultimate desired outcome is from here forwards and plan your actions to match that. How can the change in situation with work help with that?
If you decide to make a clean break, it will feel very gutting and hard at first, but it will get a bit better each day. I haven’t (can’t) taken this approach at this point. But I have seen enough other people’s stories here to be confident that it works. More of those people at LwL might come in here and tell it more authentically than I can, like Vincent did above.
Go well! Don’t be hard on yourself or fight how you feel as that will prolong it, and you’ve done nothing wrong. Sit with it, distract and let it pass. One day at a time.
Hi Georgia,
I am a bit further out of the limerence woods and want to give some short advice because you sound really in turmoil. Despite that, thankfully you are still thinking straight.
You want to end this with dignity intact. That means not stepping over the line by disclosing anything to LO. It’s *never* had any good outcomes, if you read the blogs and comments. (Disclosure to a spouse is also a bad idea, I believe, unless you’re determined to beat limerence. You might not be there just yet and anyway, that’s a less immediate issue/ next month’s problem).
You are probably too wrecked by intrusive rumination to read / focus so another brief advice point is that there is no good outcome here as you are both married. You seem to be fixated on the reciprocation issue. The truth is that its actually irrelevant. If you can repeat that, like a mantra, you will recover faster and maybe it will help any embarrassing emotional leaking around him. Ifmyou read the bligs, even if mutually limerent those feelings wear off and often disappear overnight when consummated. Think about that. It’s really not a good option. Limerence seems to only persist with barriers – which seem to inflame limerence. Once removed, it deflates. Who wants that?
You need to be left without regrets and the major ones are betraying your respective spouses. The truth is that limerence is another type of addiction and its tricking your brain right now, that is all. Eventually, if you can figure out why you fell prey to limerence, you will be grateful for this opportunity to go NC. These pages are littered with people who have been on that trajectory.
Longer term, your very best outcome is to acknowledge what has happened and ask to yourself why has it happened? What is the vulnerability in my life and how can I fix it?
Stay strong now. Only a little longer to go until you begin to think and see all of this more clearly.
Damn.
I was there, four months ago.
D-day.
But my circumstances are somewhat different, so I’ll keep this brief.
Things to avoid:
* disclosure
* exchanging contact details
* magnanimous farewell gestures
something small and fungible is fine and appropriate.. for the sake of you both
You will feel a strong urge to do all of the above.
I know that I certainly did, even though I knew my LO didn’t feel the same way about me.
Will there be an opportunity for drinks/dinner to see him off?
If so, that’s another hurdle to overcome, unbound by workplace constraints.
Well, for me, a magnanimous farewell gesture was exactly what was needed to get closure, but my circumstances were different, of course. I’m was nothing unreasonable though, a dinner and a gift I felt good about. But my LO was a good friend and I think he felt similarly. For me, it was the feeling of a proper goodbye that let me be able to let go.
*“it was nothing unreasonable“
@Georgia
The advice here so far is a spot-on. I understand the intensity of what this feels like. I was probably at my absolute worst once I knew LO did not feel the same for me.
In my situation, LO transferred out to a Satellite building our Company operated next door to the facility we were at. I was hoping to at some point, try and talk to her before she left but her body language always kept me at bay. It was so very confusing to my limerent mind because there was always intense eye contact between us, but this is where I was altogether wrong. Realizing that and coming to grips with it felt like the worst punch possible to the gut. I don’t think I ever cried so hard or so much in my whole life. Losing my own Mother didn’t even feel like that. I felt physically sick and my heart physically ached. I never had heartbreak like this and to this degree. I wouldn’t wish the feeling on anyone.
What finally started bringing me out of the great sadness was LC to NC. Once LO left the building, I still saw her sometimes but not as often. Usually it was just to connect with Colleagues for her report numbers or meeting her Friends for lunch.. As of late I haven’t seen her in months now. I’m also on a different shift in a different building within the Complex. There are times I still miss her and sometimes get sad but the intense sadness is not what it was.
What I’m trying to say here is it will probably get worse for you before it starts to get better. Being that you are both married, I can understand the dread you feel having to confront that issue. Once you go NC from LO or even just LC, you can begin feeling normal again. I would also look at what is wrong within your marriage and begin figuring out what is lacking there.
You will come out of this. It just has to run its course..
My take on the situation is that the judge probably got so lost in his own feelings for the young woman that he didn’t really consider the young woman’s feelings at all. The judge probably had reveries of pleasant non-sexual romantic intimacy with the young woman, e.g. walks where they talk about their problems, and didn’t stop to consider the young woman wasn’t having the same reveries.
In other words, the judge projected his anima onto the young woman. His fantasy of who the young woman was supplanted in his mind the reality of who the young woman was. Does that make him a bad man? No. Does that make him a socially awkward man who has let his thoughts become detached from reality? Yes.
Everyone agrees that the behaviour of sleazy predators is wrong. But it seems to me that the behaviour of naive romantics is also very, very wrong – if the person on the receiving end of the romantic feelings doesn’t want to be romanticised thus. Being on the receiving end of unwanted romantic attention can be as distressing as being on the receiving end of unwanted sexual advances. (Although non-limerents may see no difference between outbursts of limerent passion and unwanted sexual advances, due to the fact they don’t really understand the mental nature of limerence, and what the limerent party is actually seeking).
I think the judge’s situation came to light largely because it’s a workplace situation and there’s a power differential in play. Plus, the young woman reported her superior. I don’t see this judge as being sleazy. It seems to me like the judge formed a sentimental attachment to the young woman, and incorrectly assumed the young woman shared an identical sentimental attachment to him (because she would have done so in his fantasies). In the judge’s eyes, all his own behaviour is blameless. It seems like the judge didn’t consider the possibility that the sentimental attachment wasn’t shared. I think that’s limerence lunacy in a nutshell – not pausing to consider the LO might not harbour the same feelings.
The judge didn’t do anything wrong from a traditional moral perspective. However, his feelings of sentimental attachment were still viewed as deeply unwelcome by the young woman on the receiving end. I think we live in a society nowadays where sympathy would go to the young woman and not the judge. All limerents who wish to live their lives purposefully must ask themselves the questions: “Could I be inadvertently making someone in my life feel uncomfortable? Does my pursuit of bliss trump another’s right to comfort?”
Actually I was on the receiving end of this kind of being romanticized and someone just deciding I must have the same feelings and persistently acting accordingly- nothing really bad (although tried to kiss me once but backed off quickly) but really annoyingly deaf and blind to my very clear words and actions. It really is very distressing and disturbing. There’s someone playing out a film that’s only in his head and pretending you play the role he assigned to you, no matter that you say. One might laugh it off, but I was deeply disturbed by this, I felt invaded in my privacy even if there was no physical action.
@Mila.
I think, in some LEs, there’s genuinely some kind of dance between two parties, although often one party cares more than the other. I think it must be wonderful to find oneself in a dance that’s actually mutual. And sometimes, as you say, limerence can just be pure projection from one party. In the latter, the situation must feel pretty icky pretty fast for the person who didn’t sign up for it.
I think everyone, both males and females alike, has been on the receiving end of romantic overtures when young that felt a bit awkward. When one’s young, one might laugh off such behaviour, and think nothing of it. However, as one gets older, one might look back on the past, and have quite different (and deeper) emotions about something that transpired.
I think most limerents are well-intentioned in their limerence. However, while in limerence, I think one can become so focused on one’s “goal” (of determining whether or not one’s “love” is returned) that one stops seeing and hearing and responding to the other person (LO) in real time. One stops relating to the real person who is actually standing in front of one.
The “movie script”, as you say, kind of takes over, and one becomes enraged at the LO for constantly “going off script”. One wants to be kind and respectful and considerate, but one’s tranquil mental state starts to disintegrate; the pieces are increasingly hard to hold together. One becomes demanding, easily annoyed, quickly offended, etc, etc. One can also feel incredibly hurt when the LO doesn’t want the “love” offered because the limerent usually does view their love as a very pure thing.
Here’s an interesting quote from the r/limerence Wiki page, which apparently came from Dorothy Tennov herself:
“It is not love. It is the force of evolution expressed as the compulsion for the particular, this particular one above all others. Often, it is called love…”
If you’re battling limerence, you’re battling evolution. And while that’s a fight that may be worth fighting, for a wide variety of reasons, it’s not a fight anyone is likely to win easily. 🤔
„ The “movie script”, as you say, kind of takes over, and one becomes enraged at the LO for constantly “going off script”. One wants to be kind and respectful and considerate, but one’s tranquil mental state starts to disintegrate; the pieces are increasingly hard to hold together. One becomes demanding, easily annoyed, quickly offended, etc, etc.“
Well, yeah, that was me in the last LE a bit. How could he not be the person I imagined him to be? Shame on him.
Unfortunately I’m still easily annoyed. I‘m resigned that it’s the inevitable outcome of this LE , and that this, too, shall pass.
Hi Mila & Sammy,
This bit of Sammy’s essay struck me too.
“The “movie script”, as you say, kind of takes over, and one becomes enraged at the LO for constantly “going off script”. One wants to be kind and respectful and considerate, but one’s tranquil mental state starts to disintegrate; the pieces are increasingly hard to hold together. One becomes demanding, easily annoyed, quickly offended, etc, etc.”
I think some of the limerents on this site who are still deeper in the limerence mire than I feel myself to be in right now might consider their feelings of anger towards their LO in this light. Reading through comments on the site, several people who are struggling seem to be torn about how to respond when LO hurts their feelings. And going through terrible rumination and roller-coaster feelings along with that.
I agree with Sammy that this comes from a place of LO going ‘off script’ (such a great analogy) due to their diverging from the fantasy we have in our heads with respect to them. Main point being it is fantasy and not reality.
Now that I mostly feel free of limerence, I can see this part more rationally and I am so glad that I mostly always resisted the urge to ‘punish’ my LO in some way when he went off script. Mostly it was not me being the bigger person, but more than he melted my heart, fairly consistently so I could never stay mad. Of course, this is not a great strategy if you have one of those ‘dodgy’ LOs. And yeah, he encouraged me too. But that’s really no excuse. Letting go of that anger, the need to punish and sulk, any effort to control our interactions to show me in a good light and keep him hooked, to be the most interesting, intelligent and beautiful version of me that I could be, was just maing things worse. Better to let all that go, live in the real world.
Hi Bewitched,
I am so glad to hear you seem to be flying towards the gates of freedom at an intensifying pace!
“several people who are struggling seem to be torn about how to respond when LO hurts their feelings.”
I think this depends on whether the LO asked to have ‘the script’ – and it’s not easy to know. I’d reckon most LOs didn’t (most of the scripts happened in the limerent’s head). But I think it isn’t true of every case here. Some LOs, though a minority, (by how people here describe it) seem to have made hints or more that they want the script and then pulled back. In those cases it makes more sense for the limerent to feel anger at them for deviating off script. Maybe that anger has to be expressed and “got out” (not necessarily or advisedly in the direction of the LO) for those limerents to move on.
None of that is meant as a reflection on my LE, I should add. I now think my LO didn’t ask for the script. It suits me to believe this and I am increasingly reconciled with the idea. She has only once hugely deviated from ‘my script’. I felt sadness more than anger at the time and it created my closest moment to disclosure which thankfully I resisted. But it was also impactful to helping me learn that most probably I wrote the script for her myself, in my head.
Limerents often need to do some major soul searching to make a best guess at where their LO’s script came from (all while reconciling themselves with never knowing fully). An LO’s big deviations from scripts can be a learning opportunity. The big deviation helped me both to be able to also see smaller deviations, and to get a better idea of the actual script that LO was/is working from. It was never that she wanted NO script in my film, just not THAT script.
My LE tells me this untangling process takes real time and patience. It won’t happen overnight. I feel in a much better place about how to get out the other side of this OK since the big deviation happened. Hopefully more limerents can also turn these moments into a learning opportunity, painful as they can be.
@Bewitched, LaR
I got two scripts in one LE (one stone for two birds!), one for the Phantom, the other realistic MFF. The formal WORKED — the power of IMAGINATION, which nearly healed my cptsd! The latter went astray, due to the impact of my cptsd, some cultural differences and “stubborn insight”….
One shouldn’t be too greedy…. 🥴
@Bewitched.
I think, if people find themselves struggling with angry feelings toward LO, they may be in the dependency stage of limerence. It might not be entitlement that triggers anger. It might just be that the addiction has progressed to a point where one needs some form of attention from LO just to feel normal. At first, drugs apparently make people feel good. Then people have to take drugs just to feel “not terrible”. Dependency Stage is needing LO just to feel “not terrible”.
Limerents themselves may not report hurt feelings as a defining feature of limerence (except when rejection occurs). According to Tennov, it’s actually non-limerent LOs of limerents who report the limerent person gets their feelings hurt all the time, and the non-limerent LO usually doesn’t know what triggered the hurt feelings. (The limerent person is always searching for tiny signs of reciprocation maybe, and the non-limerent LO didn’t oblige?)
There could be a standard limerent movie script. This standard script just says: “LO should want to be in a relationship with me.” If LO shows disinterest in pursuing a relationship, or pursues relationships with others, that’s going off script to most limerents. The goal of ever-deepening emotional intimacy isn’t being achieved.
Whilst limerent, I never expressed upset directly at LO/LOs. Well, apart from the time I cried for three hours on some guy’s grandmother’s porch. I think I was in denial that I felt anything in relation to LO/LOs. Denial is a river in Egypt. And yes, indeed, this gentleman may protest too much. I also told my friends that I disapproved of their “romantic silliness”. (Some distraught girl from my old high school had to be driven home by a mate because she’d just had her first fight with her boyfriend). Because, you know, I’d never stoop to anything as vulgar as “romantic silliness”… 🙂
I felt betrayed by one love interest who ghosted me. Unfortunately, he had a really good excuse – he got married to someone else.
I felt indignant at another love interest who assumed I was trying to hit on him. (A non-limerent, alas! Clearly didn’t know the difference between the exquisite torment of limerence and garden-variety lust. Poor chap. His loss. As if I’d waste time on garden-variety lust). Did I mention he was related to the married guy who ghosted me? You can’t say I don’t have a type – I like to date LOs from the same family. If I can’t have the eldest brother, fine – I’ll take a younger brother.
Anyone for embarrassing reunions around the Christmas tree?
I’m thinking about saying goodbye to limerence for good, because I can’t think of an ethical way to actually practise it. Even if I’m emotionally mature enough not to get hurt myself, who’s to say that I won’t accidentally hurt someone else? Plus, I’ve finally talked myself into being a pessimist. Three guesses on how long that took me? I don’t have the spare energy to convert back to optimism. 🙂
Your LO made you melt? Funny you should mention that. Not to make everything about me, like the conversational narcissist that I probably am, but I had an LO that made me melt, too. No wait, that was the after-dinner mint I bought him. No wait, that was the whole box of after-dinner mints I bought him, and then decided to eat all by myself. He looked like an angel in the golden light of sunset. 😁
Hi LaR,
I am indeed feeling almost free of it but think the script is very different for people who had a pre-existing friendship where the script is harder to read.
Re “The script” and your observation
“I think this depends on whether the LO asked to have ‘the script’ – and it’s not easy to know. I’d reckon most LOs didn’t (most of the scripts happened in the limerent’s head). But I think it isn’t true of every case here. Some LOs, though a minority, (by how people here describe it) seem to have made hints or more that they want the script and then pulled back.”
This feels like its back to the reciprocation problem which, along with ‘barriers’, seems to be one of the universal hallmarks of limerence. But, I’d argue that, de to the barriers, the reciprocation doesn’t count and it needs to be ‘let go’, either way.
In my case, regarding reciprocation and changing the script I can look at ‘cold’ evidence – here it is: my LO actually glimmered for me when we were placed sitting in very close physical contact at a social event at the end of a work thing. He later kissed me goodbye on the lips (I am pretty sure that it was involuntary / by mistake). I didn’t see him for years after that and felt warm but not too interested – we had a bit of work contact mostly with other people included. When we next met several years later, things crystallised (he sought me out and I sleep-walked into limerence). Within weeks he tells me and a few others that his wife is pregnant, I end all contact and his kid ends up with the same initials as me (I have several so it seems a big coincidence). A few other things (eye contact, major). So yeah, the script was written in my mind, he reciprocated, but definitely neither were going to do anything about that. So it became a painful mutual disengagement – as far as I can tell – we’ve never discussed anything besides work or minor personal information, as we tend to basically avoid one another.
Maybe I dreamt up all of that reciprocation, which is a *big* danger in limerence and I reckon happens a lot. But in the end the reciprocation didn’t matter due to the barriers.
It was better to let the futility sink in, let it all go and free myself (hoping he was okay too).
Hi Sammy,
I think your LE would actually make a great movie. I am not kidding. That story has got everything. I also have a dramatic story (see my reply to LaR). Maybe most of us can spin our LE into a world-shattering romance / roman à clef. I do love hearing people’s stories on here. …
“It might just be that the addiction has progressed to a point where one needs some form of attention from LO just to feel normal.”
Indeed. Any attention is good attention and provides rumination fuel, which, if you are a fantasy-builder actually keeps limerence shuffling along without much need for external input or even much need for in-person interaction with an LO.
“Limerents themselves may not report hurt feelings as a defining feature of limerence (except when rejection occurs). According to Tennov, it’s actually non-limerent LOs of limerents who report the limerent person gets their feelings hurt all the time, and the non-limerent LO usually doesn’t know what triggered the hurt feelings.”
I think that’s right and that even if the attention is neutral or slightly negative some limerents (depending on healthy ego / self confidence) can interpret that as a positive, whereas others (less secure ego) may interpret similar LO attention as something more tinged with negative. All happening up to a point where enough becomes enough and the negativity for a variety of reasons and drivers (barriers included) becomes overwhelming. We (maybe just I) keep forgetting that despite the strong hallmarks of limerence (barriers, desperation for reciprocation-squared from one’s LO) one’s personality (ego, attachment style, upbringing, and other things) affects limerent reactions. Some posters have painful home lives which makes any fantasy preferable to none, irrespective of LO’s objective part in the script. I know I was at a low ebb when limerence struck and took hold of me.
“I’m thinking about saying goodbye to limerence for good, because I can’t think of an ethical way to actually practise it. Even if I’m emotionally mature enough not to get hurt myself, who’s to say that I won’t accidentally hurt someone else? Plus, I’ve finally talked myself into being a pessimist. Three guesses on how long that took me? I don’t have the spare energy to convert back to optimism. 🙂”
My response to this is “Know thyself” Sammy. You know what’s best for you. Maybe you need a limerent kick-start to a relationship to establish and maintain interest (for a while)? I think I did and, looking back, I think I was limerent for my husband. I was crazy for a while – maybe a few weeks – but because there were no appreciable barriers we met, he reciprocated, and then it soon settled into something comfortable, compatible and sustainable. I thought he was a ‘God’, I set out to get him and I easily managed it (go figure!), then limerence kind of calmed down but I believed (and still do) that I had landed myself a wonderful catch. We also happened to be very compatible so all was not lost when limerence did calm down fairly fast, a bit like Dr Tom. Dr Tom supposes no evidence of statistical correlation between falling limerent and relationship happiness and success. Some limerent relationships do transform into something more ‘real’, and happily last and others don’t. But I think if you are wired to crave limerence, it may be difficult to fall into deep and lasting love without it – even if that love changes from limerent ‘love’ (loose term, but you know what I mean) to something more real and less rooted in fantasy. And the acid test is just to ensure that you can transition properly with your favourite person into something real and not fantasy?
Bewitched,
now you got me hooked on your story.
„ Within weeks he tells me and a few others that his wife is pregnant, I end all contact“
Really? Did you just cut all contact at once? This seems a bit extreme, or have I misread something that happened before?
@Bewitched
I remember you saying your LE was too intense for you to have had more than one in your lifetime? I thought I was like that too. But it seems you’ve fallen into limerence again after already ‘securing’ LO1 (hubby)?
I’m wondering now, if the feeling that my LE is once-in-a-lifetime is just limerence tricking me. It seems as if it’s just the barriers that keep limerence going…
Dear Mila,
“„ Within weeks he tells me and a few others that his wife is pregnant, I end all contact“
Really? Did you just cut all contact at once? This seems a bit extreme, or have I misread something that happened before?”
Yes I cut all contact for 4 months until after the baby was born. But you know, it wasn’t so extreme because I think the baby made the whole thing taboo on both sides. The baby was a surprise to LO and his wife, however he would have known that they were expecting when we met after years and that was when he initiated a lot of contact in person with me ns the whole thing took off in my head. When I found out, this shocked me, I cut contact, he initiated v little contact (always with other people) which I didn’t reply to; and our interactions are always work related and sporadic anyway so it wasn’t dramatic to anyone except me (and maybe him, who knows). Part of the path to freedom is to stop imagining what he thinks as its futile. To be honest, there were other large things even after the baby, who incidentally I have now met (last Summer). That was a proper head wrecker. But I feel that both parties are resigned to make SOs / family the priority because anything else is unthinkable. And I am at peace with that.
Dear Maria,
“I remember you saying your LE was too intense for you to have had more than one in your lifetime? I thought I was like that too. But it seems you’ve fallen into limerence again after already ‘securing’ LO1 (hubby)?”
I still believe that I have only had one proper LE because there were no barriers with hubby (pretty soon there was reciprocation on both sides so it never had the chance to curdle into the field of thwarted desire, dopamine addiction and an imagined broken heart). I believe that was better-defined as a proto-limerence with hubby, because there was literally no down-side and I never got through all the phases into rumination and deterioration. (I did experience euphoria).
It was nothing like the thing that happened to me with LO, who I believe has been the only full-fledged LO that I have ever had. I do still believe that I could never do that again.
“I’m wondering now, if the feeling that my LE is once-in-a-lifetime is just limerence tricking me. It seems as if it’s just the barriers that keep limerence going…”
They most definitely do – barriers and a fantasy about reciprocation. Maybe if you write-off the latter part as futile, the barriers will do the rest of the job of convincing your executive brain (which is still functioning somewhere in the background) that the entire thing is futile and that (even better) you can live with that. I found that its hard to see it that way until the fog lifts a bit.
Hi Bewitched,
Ok! It’s hard to imagine the real dynamics of LEs by the bits and pieces we read here from posters, that’s why I asked- for me all my LOs were coworkers-slash-friends, and to cut contact after the announcement of a baby would have been quite revealing about one’s true intentions(if not deemed quite rude) , so I would have avoided that no matter how shocked I would have been- it sounded to me that there must have been some disclosing behavior or talk beforehand, otherwise the reaction would have been like a disclosure.
Just to explain why I asked, I think I got a better understanding now, although I still don’t get the whole picture. But you don’t have to provide it, it would most probably be too detailed for a public forum.
I‘m proud of us both to have managed to crawl out of the woods!
I still struggle with feelings of annoyance that seem unfair since he‘s always been like that. It would be easier if we wouldn’t still have that friendship going that I made myself a promise to keep. But I count on time to heal that too.
@Bewitched.
“My response to this is “Know thyself” Sammy.”
Oh my goodness! You don’t understand my personality at all! You’re so patronising! You’re almost as patronising as Mila! Do I look like the sort of person who listens to kind-hearted, well-intentioned advice? Ew. Yuck. Gross. 😲😲😲
No, no, no. My dear woman, you have me ALL WRONG. I don’t accept advice. I only give advice. I give hilariously bad advice to OTHER PEOPLE. Giving hilariously bad advice is an art form I’ll have you know. I’d sooner die than accept constructive criticism… 😁
I’m already perfect. Why on earth would I want advice from other people? You must assume that I’m one of those nice non-narcissistic people. Let me assure you I’m an out-and-out narcissist. 😉
Did I mention I’m, like, 87.758863% stoic? And I’m bravely fighting the “iron cage” of my wicked, wicked COO (Culture of Origin). And I may have cptsd, too. You DO know what cptsd is, don’t you? It’s Critical Pretty Tasty Salad Deprivation. As a child, I wasn’t allowed to eat enough salad. I’m now addicted to the local salad bar. 🙂
Can I ask you a personal question? Can I? Can I? I can? Okay, here goes… Are YOU the THOUGHT POLICE? 😲😲😲
What? You think you might be infatuated with some man? Shocking! You must be hysterical! Are you a decadent hedonistic Westerner, by any chance? I’m a stoic. Only I can rightly judge whether other people are being hysterical! You are all being hysterical! 😲😲
Can we – just us girls – now please have obsessive conversations about adultery, sex work, and the male reproductive organ? Dirty mind? Who me? I swear I don’t know what you’re talking about…
Are you sure you aren’t the THOUGHT POLICE? Are you weally, weally, weally sure you aren’t the THOUGHT POLICE? 😲😲😲
Would you mind it terribly, dear, if I smile shamelessly at your beloved LO? But I have cptsd! Why can I throw myself at your beloved LO? Are YOU the THOUGHT POLICE? 😲
(Sorry. Couldn’t resist doing an impression of another poster. Hugs, Snow. Thank you for being slightly more empathic these days). 🙂
The “getting hurt by things LO says or does” definitely applied to me. I was in contact with LO2 for only a few months but I got hurt by various things several (or at least a couple!) times. Often things that seemed insignificant to him, but he did have a somewhat biting sense of humor.
For example, if I were limerent for LaR, his comment about keeping my friend “on the hook” would have hurt me deeply. But luckily I’m not limerent (LaR, you can exhale! 😉). Because I wanted LO to think the world of me. LO2 also had strong opinions and wasn’t afraid to say them, so I often took offense when he seemed to belittle or contradict my opinion on something that had personal significance to me. (Does he sound like an a$$hole now, or is it still just me?! I can’t tell! 😯) Maybe the key word there was “seemed”… I took everything that came from him personally. And he probably had no idea why!
Trifles,
(Exhales calmly…)
I tend to overthink, so please can I just make a final check that “on the hook” hasn’t really offended you, after the apology and explanations I gave? I promise it was just a clumsy figure of speech which didn’t have any harmful intention, despite it being a badly thought-out choice of words.
I know what you mean about hanging on an LO’s choice of words. My LO can still sometimes sting me with words, until I think it through and realise it is just the frank honesty of her personality speaking, which I really wouldn’t want to change.
As I know (despite you not liking the psychobabble) that you think you are probably NTP (like
my LO) I want to share something with you that I have found about relating to her. She ‘dishes out banter’ very readily. She would not feel she was an authentic friend to anyone if she couldn’t. She means no harm, ever, by it. But then people tend to respond to it in kind by “dishing it out” back in her direction. 95% of it she takes well and enjoys. The other 5% she ruminates the living daylights out of. I lose track of the number of conversations I have had with her where she has ruminated about others’ words. I just wonder if any of that resonates where it comes to what you said about your LO2. I think I occasionally say things to LO that shock her. But I would never say them to someone who was more reserved with their own opinions. (As stated before, I have an extraordinarily ‘good LO’, with a really long history behind us as friends, and that means my LE doesn’t represent the majority here).
Note – I have wandered off the subject, but none of the above is meant to excuse ‘on the hook’ – I fully accept I mucked that up.
LaR, no no, you are completely off the hook now (pun intended). I haven’t ruminated on it, and I will stop referencing it now. I was only trying to come up with a quick example of something LO might have said – that I might blow out of proportion because it was him – but I didn’t want to give incriminating details. What he actually said was much worse, though I’m sure he did not mean to insult me. It was an off the cuff joke (in response to something I said) that he thought was funny but didn’t think I would take personally. He then thoroughly mansplained to me why he thought it was ok to say it – I think it was his way of apologizing, and of course I even found it endearing(!)
And yes, I encourage that type of banter with the way I dish it out sometimes, I realize that. But still I can’t stop myself… So I have to face the consequences. Interesting to hear that that may be one of NTP qualities. I actually suspect LO2 might have been NTP as well, it matches up. And it would explain why he felt so familiar to me.
And thanks, this MBTI ‘mumbojumbo’ is giving me another framework to understand what I’ve instinctually noticed about other people. 😉 But I still feel a little iffy about analyzing people based on it – I feel it would be a little manipulative if it started to affect how I interacted with them…
Thank you, and if you reference it again no worries, now I am sure I am off the hook!
Ah, good ole mansplaining 🤣 i think I tried to mansplain ‘on the hook’ at first before deciding the more direct apology was needed and better.
I wouldn’t use the MBTI as a way to box people in. I haven’t done a deep dive on all the 16 types! It just happens that NTP piqued my interest previously because of LO, which you were clever in getting behind my cloak of sketchy details and discovering! Sometimes this means that the way you respond to things resonates quite strongly, because it can be similar to how she’d respond. But no two people are the same, that’s the joy of life, and like I say I definitely wouldn’t box people in by it pr think all of one personality type are the same.
Out of interest though … could you hazard a guess at your XLO or your TO’s personality types?
LaR, thanks for giving me some leeway in possibly coming back to the old joke if I feel like it. 😀 And good question – as it happens, I was just bursting at the seams to start boxing in my MFF’s (using MFF as an all-encompassing term for “persons of interest” now)! 😉
I think LO2 was E(N/S)TP (though he confessed to being an introvert, so we’ll go with INTP.
The nuances in LO1’s personality I barely remember, just that he was smart and his sense of humor gelled well with mine. I’m clearly not well-versed enough in MBTI to come up with anything besides: maybe I – something -T-something! He was quite similar to LO2 both in general appearance (didn’t look the same but had some of the same qualities) and in personality. I have a “type”.
Now TO is clearly different. Strong E, pretty clear S, maybe F (or maybe that is just the part that is coming out now), J. So ESFJ? And I do notice that I take his feelings more into consideration when interacting with him. Though from his response it seems I needn’t do it as much.
Have you noticed that you gravitate toward the same types of MFF’s or is the latest LO an anomaly? Anyone else can answer as well!
Trifles,
Interesting question! My SO is a strong S and F and so I have to sometimes moderate how I’ď naturally say things to take account of her feelings, much more than with a T. Also the N in me likes a big philosophical debate on a world issue and I have to rein that in a bit. Her SO’s Sensing is interesting.
She will say things like “I sense this will happen” and it often then does, like a premonition. I can’t really key into thinking like that myself but it is clever (or is it writing the narrative to make what you think will come true, come true?! I digress).
Anyway we have different strengths which usually work well as a combination, but do sometimes mean we talk at cross purposes and have to figure out what the other needs. I had a good chat with Sammy about this a while back on a T relating to an F. Sounds like you might have a mild form of that with MFF, but that it works for you. Sammy said that often the F might seem to present us with a problem needing solving. The T will rush to find the best rational solution but really the F doesn’t want that – just wants emotional stuff like closeness or affirmation.
I haven’t thought of whether previous LOs have a similar MBTI type. It is interesting because I have plenty of previous crushes and a few significant relationships. But I did some mental housekeeping about them and decided only 4 had really been LOs. Your question made me think. Those 4 are quite different to a lot of the crushes or SOs. They are all quite extraverted and “ballsy” women, as well as having some physical similarities that I know are attractors for me. So I think I have a ‘type’ there, but I have also been attracted to people that aren’t that type. Would you say your experiences are similar?
Typo – not ‘her SO’s sensing’, just ‘SO’s sensing’
I’d be on a whole different hook if my SO had another SO!
Oh yes, I think that topic has been covered and you weren’t in a poly relationship at last check!
The S vs N – I thought S was more focused on concrete facts and the present, and wouldn’t actually believe in “sensing” future things (despite the name “Sensor”)? By my logic, Intuitive would rather intuite things to come. It’s a little confusing to me…
T vs F, yep, I’ve tried to brainstorm alternative solutions to TO’s problems, and I sometimes get frustrated when he doesn’t have a “plan”. But I back off when he tells me he doesn’t want plans or solutions!
And yes, I think the LOs are different from previous SOs. Both of my LO’s were the calm, cool, collected type that could put me at ease (no, probably more like unease!). Perhaps with a touch of arrogance about their intellect, at least with LO2 (a turn-on for me!), with a twinkle in the eye. I Iike someone who keeps me on my toes. Very good-mannered, considerate gentlemen (though LO2 had a more direct style of communicating), with a little naughtiness beneath the surface (loved digging for that!).
… But I guess the point of this wasn’t for me to continue idealizing them! Don’t worry, I’m over it, I just don’t want to give others a bad example.
When I compare them to previous SOs – I think I’ve tended to go into relationships with men who are more F than T. And who aren’t as interested in ‘sparring’ with me. So there must be a reason for that – in the end NTPs would probably annoy the hell out of me!
Perhaps you are also drawn to what is completely different about your LO’s (compared to who you normally get along with the best)..?
Trifles,
Yep, Snow did a quick sense check once to see if I would or could form a polycule! A definitive no for me as well as for SO.
“Perhaps you are also drawn to what is completely different about your LO’s (compared to who you normally get along with the best)..?”
I think there is a lot in this idea. I think the LOs have all, to some extent, put me in touch with the rebellious, free spirited, creative side of me. To anchor it in the psychobabble, as I am a J and an I, their P and E probably encourage that side of me. I often have/had an opposite calming influence on their excesses, without trying to impose or change them, which I’ve had feedback from a couple of the historic ones that they liked in me. I felt/feel a strong and confident version of myself around them. They have opened me to different out of the box perspectives on anything and everything. But they are not quite the typical sort of girls I’d take home to meet the parents! (And I do sincerely mean that as a compliment to them!).
There is probably some good learning here for me as I try to pave the way for a life where LO is no longer an LO. I need to find other ways to unleash that side of me for myself (a bit like Snow and Bewitched have done, internalise LE’s good points but make them a part of me, not reliant on LO or any other person). But also try and have more other people with similar personalities (who can draw those sides of me out) around me, just not fall limerent for them 🤭😬
I think you are right about the I and S bit. I think my SO’s ‘sensing the future’ is something a bit different from the S in the Myers Briggs. Yes, the intuitive is always working with the big picture and thinks they know what’s going on by theorising it. They might miss details under their nose that the sensor notices in real time. But I and S confuses me because I think some people are strong at both things and some at neither.
I think a couple of personality traits being similar and a couple different is a decent combo on the whole, rather than all the same or all different. Sounds like that’s probably what you have with TO.
LaR, Yes, when looked at that way: what is it that I’m looking for in LOs/LE that I could find inside myself? I guess I would like to have the confidence of LOs. And also LO2’s lifestyle intrigues me. I’ve already tried to emulate the latter in tiny ways. As for LEs, I seem to need a sparring partner who gives me a run for my money. And my job is not really fulfilling me… I feel just generally blah and stuck in a lot of ways. The banter I can get with friends, it’s just missing the tension – which I can’t imagine getting anywhere else. I think I may just need to wait out this need for excitement.
“I think the LOs have all, to some extent, put me in touch with the rebellious, free spirited, creative side of me.”
It sounds like you are also hungry for the excitement. Is this the part where you buy a motorcycle? 😉 Or take time off work to explore a new corner of the world by train? Let me know where you find it. Note: I don’t mean to sound that sceptical – it could be done, and would be fun!
I’m not sure about the “finding similar personality types to hang out with” – it sounds a little dangerous for you, unless they are men!
“I think a couple of personality traits being similar and a couple different is a decent combo on the whole, rather than all the same or all different. Sounds like that’s probably what you have with TO.”
No, actually I came up with *all* different letters for TO: his ESFJ vs my INTP. But being so far removed from my regular LO-type means I’m not afraid of him (in the LE sense).
Trifles,
OMG, the motorbike question tells me I just screamed “mid life crisis!” in my last reply. I am not a likely biker but I really do like your idea of a train to lesser-spotted bits of the world.
Joking aside, I don’t think it is full MLC but I did have a spell of lots of life changes in a short time. Some huge pressures were lifted but new ones were added on (as a point of interest they are not connected to SO). It caused a bit of an evaluation of what really mattered. An unfortunate (Snow will tell me off for that morally-tinged word) by-product of all of this was it acted like rocket fuel to the LE. I now have a bit more calm and perspective on it and can see how the parts slot together and how I might be able to keep the good bits without the painful bits. I’m sorry this is cryptic – wish I could tell you a bit more of the ‘nuts and bolts’.
Your lifestyle adaptations to emulate bits of LO2’s life sound of interest but I sense they might fall in the same category as the above for me, that it might feel like too much ‘revealing’.
I really hear you about wanting the banter, tension, sparring etc. Old friends are great but might lack that sense of novelty and sparkle.
As for the ESFJ MFF (quite a generous portion of alphabet soup I just served you up there), that must be quite different, and perhaps a bit ‘gentler’, compared to “sparring partner” type LOs from before.
On the having people of similar personalities around me in the future, I mean much more casually (but yeah if they were men, which I wouldn’t mind, it makes life simpler). I just mean that if I have worked out that that kind of personality sparks sides of me that I like, it pays to have some small helpings of it around me, but without having to rely on LO for it (if I can start to feel a bit less limerent still, I might adopt the MFF label myself instead soon). If I am looking for a lasting bonus of the LE, then it is the amount I have learned about my triggers. I reckon with some confidence I could anticipate and head off future glimmerers now. So I feel sure that *when* (not *if*, LaR, not *if*) I can consign this LE to history, there won’t be another one to follow on its coat tails.
Hope your weekend treated you nicely!
LaR, your description of “rebellious, free spirited” just brought to mind a James Dean image: motorcycle, leather jacket, wide open road (absolutely no corn fields..!) 😁 So that’s where the motorcycle came from.
As for what I’ve taken on from LO – I think I mentioned that he’s outdoorsy. I’ve already been fairly outdoorsy, but I think I’ve embraced that side of me a little more. And thanks, my weekend was good on that front, enjoying the autumn nature. Hope yours was good as well!
Gentle – that’s a nice word, and an apt one. I’ve come to realize with this MBTI ‘analysis’, that I have surrounded myself with more gentle people than the sparring kind. And that must be for a reason. But my crushes have mainly been on the latter!
I can be a little prickly on the surface. Gentle people can bring out the soft side of me. (I imagine that’s what you do for your LO, and she enjoys it! Even us T’s need people to open up to.) Related to the sparring, I like a good challenge, so that’s why I also brought my job into this. Maybe it would help if I had more of a challenge there.
Trifles,
Good stuff for recognising that, if you feel a bit unchallenged at work, that could be contributing. I feel the words ‘purposeful living’ marching ominously in the direction of my lips … I obviously have no idea if you’re in a position to think about making a change to work, but maybe the universe is talking to you there a bit, for the longer term?
Oh yes, I remember about your outdoorsy side through the love of agriculture, of course! Silly me! I also found it cathartic this weekend motoring my combine harvester up and down the cornfields in my leather jacket. More seriously though, I do always find time in nature a pleasant way to soothe whatever else we have going on. ‘Got a problem? go somewhere near water’ has long been a mantra for me.
Thank you for saying a very kind thing there about what you think I might add to my LO’s life. I could really write books about what I think makes that relationship work well, but you are pretty much accurate to how I see it and bits she has told me.
LO really is a Pandora’s Box of personality quirks all packaged into one person – surface extravert, hard trier with people, too ‘much’/too ‘cutting’ for many people (your ‘prickly’ made me think of this, but I don’t assume its the same with you), very soft centre but difficult for most to access and see it, no time for standing still, always a new grand idea but not always bothered/able to see it through, all about facts not emotions on surface, but emotional underneath. Can need a spar back, or a listening ear, or just plain stupidity, on different days.
I might seem here like I read a manual on how to relate to her (and it could seem manipulative if I did). Truth is, we are both strong intuitives and just intuited what the other needed, a very long way before the glimmer, and it worked without it seeming an effort. She knows equally how to be for me as I do for her. The LE hasn’t altered the core of all that, (though of course I would be lying if I said it hasn’t amplifed the time I invest). But that is why I am so determined to squash the LE without squashing everything else. She is giving me every chance to do that if she does suspect.
The other interesting thing you raised is how you often like sparring partner types as LOs but ‘gentler’ types as friends. Do you find that once someone is in your friendzone, that’s where they stay? I have a hunch that’s what has happened from LO’s side. She had the SO barriers until fairly recently, so there was that change. But since then, as it is only me with barriers, I will never be able to litmus-test it, and it would not be a fair test on equal terms. I am square with that ‘not knowing’ now, and overthinking it doesn’t help – so this is more just a general interest question about friendzoning than asking you for more opinion on my LE!
Thanks for letting me dialogue some of this through btw – I coped on my own with it for a long while pre LwL days and it is good to just chat it out in this safe space.
“Do you find that once someone is in your friendzone, that’s where they stay?”
LaR, dangerous question as you noticed yourself! I think some on here have said that once you are in the friend zone, you stay there. (Have these LWL’ers been F-types? I don’t know.) It would probably be safest for me (and everyone else!) to hold the line tight and agree with that in order for all limerents reading this to not get any more fuel in their harvesters!
But there must be a reason why some still persist in their pursuit – sometimes it pays off.
I don’t think falling limerent for certain types correlates (or not) with permanent friend zoning. Many start relationships without there being limerence in the beginning. I’ve done that too. And I mentioned that my LTR’s have been with the gentler (F?) types. But – and this is crucial – I don’t think I can develop limerence for someone in the friend zone.
Anyone disagree?
That was actually a clever question for me to ponder because I currently have someone in the friend zone (TO), but have been building a stronger and stronger connection with him (I was warned about that here).
“‘Got a problem? go somewhere near water’ has long been a mantra for me.”
That’s true for me as well – I’ve been following that mantra more or less consciously. And thanks for that imagery of leather-jacketed harvesting. 😂
Regarding work, yep, I’m keeping my eyes open for new opportunities but the job market is a bit slow at the moment.
So to check that I’ve got your argument here – you’re saying once someone is in another person’s friendzone, the ‘friendzoner’ won’t fall *limerent* for that person, but may (though more likely won’t) experience progress of other fond feelings? That all seems to add up.
If there is one thing I am completely convinced of, it is that LO isn’t and has never been mutually limerent, but I am more ambivalent on whether she’s experienced feelings of some sort – it could be either way. If there is another thing I am now convinced of (based on your line of argument here, but also other thinking I’ve done around it), it is what Marcia and you both worked to convince me a while back – that LO cannot ever have *really* been in my friendzone after that decade old pre-glimmer.
It’s good that you considered your audience here. Some posters seem to solve limerence by convincing ourselves we are friendzoned because that feels the most likely and fits how we need to feel. I too think that’s the safest way, and is the way I am working with nowadays. Others are more down the road of convincing themselves it was always mutual but just couldn’t/can’t be acted on. All roads lead to the same Rome here: it actually doesn’t matter.
“I was warned about that here”
Yes, you were! Although I have always come down more on the side, based on what you’ve declared here, that you are in control of it, know what you’re doing and aren’t harming anyone.
And I think I need a cup of coffee, because I realized after I wrote that – that you and a few others here have fallen limerent for a friend. Though I think some (you?) later admitted that they had felt a glimmer before “friend zoning”.
Messages crossed, but (basically) same conclusion! 😉
On the subject of friiendzoning I think that the hardest part of admitting that might have happened made me then realize that LO wasn’t as charitable and perfect as I thought she was. To think she had me “on the ropes” just in case …. I would have liked to just left it to limerence and my idealization of her rather than think she was imperfect.
On our way home from the doctor yesterday (I am now out of my sling and am going to go to physical therapy for my shoulder before we consider surgery) Momma played a song for me she wanted to hear. When it was over she went to my youtube homepage and played the first mix in my feed. The second song was …
Don’t Expect Me To Be Your Friend — Lobo
https://youtu.be/Zir11p4oCFI?si=86s14eZ5_oxTPzJK
She said something while I was singing along. Just as we pulled into Dollar General the song was over. And she said “sorry I was being snarky”. I said “I didn’t hear you when I was singing.” She says “I said ‘oh isn’t this the perfect song for you’ cause I was being snarky.” What she was implying didn’t dawn on me right away. I guess that’s a good sign?
@Trifles,
I think in the crossover of our two posts we actually nailed a key point – there aren’t that many “limerent for a friend” people like me here, so those of us in that position do indeed have to question the “friend” bit
@Adam
Good analysis of your situation I’d say, that we can learn from. And a very good sign about what happened in the car that you’re moving on
Lim-a-rant,
“So to check that I’ve got your argument here – you’re saying once someone is in another person’s friendzone, the ‘friendzoner’ won’t fall *limerent* for that person, but may (though more likely won’t) experience progress of other fond feelings? ”
That’s how it’s been for me. I’ve never suddenly become wildly infatuated for a guy I’m already friends with. Nor will I develop romantic feelings out of the blue. Now I did once hookup with a guy friend and I started to see him differently. Had things continued on that route, I could have probably developed a crush on him. Something had shifted/changed in our friendship. Tbh, sex. I can’t see a friendship just going along as it always had been and … boom! I see him as more than a friend. But that’s me.
“It’s good that you considered your audience here. Some posters seem to solve limerence by convincing ourselves we are friendzoned because that feels the most likely and fits how we need to feel. I too think that’s the safest way, and is the way I am working with nowadays. Others are more down the road of convincing themselves it was always mutual but just couldn’t/can’t be acted on. All roads lead to the same Rome here: it actually doesn’t matter.
That’s very true. All roads lead to a dead end.
@Marcia
“That’s very true. All roads lead to a dead end.”
It’s a simple truth for any married/ partnered limerent, when looked at rationally as a hard fact. It is also the single hardest truth for us limerents to learn and accept until late in an LE, because emotion takes over from reason. That is a thing that binds most LEs and causes the limerent to either string the LE out or crash and burn with disclosure.
I am not raising chequered victory flags over my LE prematurely, or saying I’ve grasped the ‘futility’ point 100% yet. All I know is that I am in a phase of clarity about it, where there once was none. I do not want years of repeat of the most painful six months in the middle of this LE. It’s not living.
Lim-a-rant,
“It’s a simple truth for any married/ partnered limerent, when looked at rationally as a hard fact. ”
But it’s also an obvious fact.
I look at my LE, and I wonder: What was I thinking? I don’t have an excuse for the things I did. I wanted what I wanted.
@Marcia,
But were you the partnered one in that experience you mention? Or the LO to a partnered man? If the second one, surely he had more ‘what was I thinking?’ to be doing than you had? Apologies if I misunderstood.
Lim-a-rant,
“But were you the partnered one in that experience you mention? Or the LO to a partnered man? ”
No, he was married and my LO. But I didn’t say to myself –Married dude. Have strong feelings. Should probably back away.
I did quite the opposite.
@Marcia,
The limerence chemical cocktail does odd and almost uncontrollable stuff to us.
Ignore this bit if you’d rather not answer, but how did married dude react to that?
My bigger question is – do you feel, now you know all you do about limerence, that if you met a similar scenario in the future, you’d be confident you wouldn’t act the same? Or do you think the pure primal instinct of sexual and/or emotional attraction could override it and mean a repeat of your actions is still a risk?
This isnt meant at all to be personal to you – I am interested in it as part of the general tendencies of limerence/limerents and would be glad to hear what others here think too.
Lim-a-rant,
“The limerence chemical cocktail does odd and almost uncontrollable stuff to us.”
What does that say about pairing up long-term then? It’s just a a matter of time, right, before one person in the couple becomes limerent/falls hard for someone else?
Limerence walloped me, but it didn’t make me lose basic reasoning skills. And decision-making skills.
I knew what I was doing.
“but how did married dude react to that?”
I’ll be brief … 🙂 …. flirtation, disclosure, some physical stuff.
“My bigger question is – do you feel, now you know all you do about limerence, that if you met a similar scenario in the future, you’d be confident you wouldn’t act the same?”
God, I hope not.
“Or do you think the pure primal instinct of sexual and/or emotional attraction could override it and mean a repeat of your actions is still a risk?”
I don’t believe those things override my basic ability to know when I should back away.
“This isnt meant at all to be personal to you – I am interested in it as part of the general tendencies of limerence/limerents and would be glad to hear what others here think too.”
I didn’t take it personally.
@Marcia,
Ok, if not in danger of taking personally I’ll try and ditch some of my usual flannel and just get to the points quicker 😅
“What does that say about pairing up long-term then?”
It says that often, if a person elects to enter and stay in a monogamous LTR, at some stage they’ll have to go against their primal instincts if they’re not to ‘dine out’
“Limerence walloped me, but it didn’t make me lose basic reasoning skills. And decision-making skills.
I knew what I was doing.”
I phrased it as *almost* uncontrollable, as I agree. I could still (just) reason back with my inner limerent and own the decisions I made/make (good and bad ones). It was still me making them, not some external force.
“I don’t believe those things override my basic ability to know when I should back away.”
You mean this is a position you have now got to, or one you always had?
If ‘always had’, how to square it with this point about your LE:
“I didn’t say to myself … Have strong feelings. Should probably back away.
I did quite the opposite.”?
If your ‘acting anyway’ wasn’t down to emotion overriding reason, or pure primal instinct, then what was it down to?
Lim-a-rajt,
“Ok, if not in danger of taking personally I’ll try and ditch some of my usual flannel and just get to the points quicker 😅”
Use your flannel with Sammy; he likes LONG replies. 🙂
“It says that often, if a person elects to enter and stay in a monogamous LTR, at some stage they’ll have to go against their primal instincts if they’re not to ‘dine out’ ”
Right. Which means one has to back away from the buffet if the buffet is proving tempting. 🙂
“You mean this is a position you have now got to, or one you always had?”
There were warning signs that I ignored in the beginning.
“If your ‘acting anyway’ wasn’t down to emotion overriding reason, or pure primal instinct, then what was it down to?”
I mean, there were strong emotions and primal instinct. But the biggest thing was just wanting what I wanted. I wanted him. It was driven by selfishness, I guess.
And at that time in my life I was willing to work around the fact that he was married. You asked. 🙂
I couldn’t remember the last time I was that into someone. And I thought: Well, you don’t always get the whole package. But it was all a conscious decision.
I got you. Your main point is that action is still a conscious decision from within, not driven by external forces.
@Bewitched
Thanks for all the new stuff you shared in reply to me. I find it hard to share these ‘up close’ details, but wish it wasn’t so.
I have *never* ‘accidentally’ kissed anyone on the lips! But it is by the by, as you say. The crux of what you said is this:
“But in the end the reciprocation didn’t matter due to the barriers.
It was better to let the futility sink in, let it all go and free myself (hoping he was okay too).”
You really do speak so much sense and your replies are so helpful – thank you. It is this one fact that every limerent in
your or my situation needs to accept. It (reciprocation or not, knowing firmly) just *doesn’t matter* in the end.
“The script is very different for people who had a pre-existing friendship where the script is harder to read.”
This is the other crux of it for me. Speedwagon said to me months ago that in my position he wouldn’t want to let the limerence ‘beat’ the friendship. That’s still where I am. I want to exit the limerence and keep my friendship with this person who has been such a great friend to me. No other route will do – I won’t disclose, or ghost, or do a ‘dishonest fade’. Unless she does any of those things, it rules them out.
Trifles has once joked with me that I have set myself the almost impossible job
here. And maybe I have, time will tell. But I actually think I might be doing it. My limerence is really well down on the levels it was a few months ago and we are still as good friends as we always were.
Thanks for your help Bewitched, along with anyone else in this community who has been supportive, and there have been many.
“Everyone agrees that the behaviour of sleazy predators is wrong. But it seems to me that the behaviour of naive romantics is also very, very wrong – if the person on the receiving end of the romantic feelings doesn’t want to be romanticised thus.”
Well, Sammy, just because something doesn’t exhibit malicious intent doesn’t mean that not dangerous. Venomous snakes are often nice to look at but they can kill you. Also, they never attack out of malice. They attack out of instinct.
@Limerent Emeritus.
“Well, Sammy, just because something doesn’t exhibit malicious intent doesn’t mean that not dangerous. Venomous snakes are often nice to look at but they can kill you. Also, they never attack out of malice. They attack out of instinct.”
Oh, hello there, Limerent Emeritus. It’s so nice you want to talk to me. Must be some bizarre extrovert quality. Either that, or you secretly enjoy my company. As per usual, I have no idea what you’re talking about, but thanks anyway for the lovely quote. I will add it to my collection of lovely quotes. Where did you get it from? “Harry Potter”? “Lady Chatterley’s Second-Favourite Plumber”? “Gentlemen Gardeners’ Gazette”? 🙂
Might you be having a little dig at me? If you are, I assure you I don’t mind. Everyone seems to be perpetually offended by what I say, despite the fact everything I say is said without personal emotion on my part and without ideological agenda. I guess people don’t like having mirrors unintentionally held up to themselves. Never met such a tough crowd. Oh well. Can’t be helped. Say, aren’t you a little old to be having a dig at me? Settle down, Gramps. Save your energy for the battles that count… 🙂
Thank you for the heads-up on Heidi Priebe, by the way. 🙂
Are you in a bad mood? Do you want a hug? That’s too bad. Because I’m not offering you a hug. 🙂
I’ll share three funny stories with you. though. I would say these stories aren’t a patch on your stories, but I don’t believe in lying or flattery. These stories are simply different from the kind of stories you like to tell. 🙂
Today, on the train, there was a gang of naughty kids that were harassing adults, yours truly included. At last, one lady had enough and stood up. “Hey kids,” she said. “Let me tell you about Jesus.” You never saw a bunch of kids run away so fast. Eldest boy in group: “No thank you. I don’t want to hear about Jesus. I’m with the Devil. Stay away from us, old lady!” 😆
The other day I overheard a man and a woman (in a relationship) having breakfast in a cafe with their baby (in pram). Towards the end of the meal, baby started crying. Father stopped conversing with female partner and playfully addressed baby: “Aw, mate. You’re ruining the vibe…” 🙄😜
Today, I met a beautiful young woman exiting a dress shop. She was working in the dress shop and carrying out a life-size female mannequin. The mannequin was clad in a sexy black dress. Beautiful young woman was having trouble carrying mannequin and almost hit me over the head with it as I walked past. “Oops, sorry,” she said. I smiled at beautiful young woman, and kept walking. Then I turned around, performed a little dance, and pointed to sexy black dress on mannequin in gleeful disbelief. “For MEEEEEEEEEEEE?” Beautiful young woman laughed. I mainly made the remark to help her feel less guilty about trying to unalive me. 😉
Sammy,
I was imprecise. I should have objected to your use of the word “wrong” in your post.
wrong /rông, rŏng/adjective
Not in conformity with fact or truth; incorrect or erroneous.
“a wrong answer.”
Contrary to conscience, morality, or law.
“Stealing is wrong.”
Unfair; unjust.
“The kids felt it was wrong when some got to go on the field trip but not others.”
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition •
In the context of your post, which definition do you feel applies? How is the behavior of “naive limerents” “wrong?” It may be unwanted and/or undesired but it doesn’t seem to be “wrong.”
As Curmudgeon in Residence, I allow myself wide latitude.
Sammy Friend, you make me laugh.. I love your vibe and let me also add, I’m never offended by any of your posts..
😂😂😂
@Limerent Emeritus.
Good grief, my friend, it’s you! And you’re still here! That’s so disappointing. I thought you had passed away in the night or something. I thought maybe you had angered the angel of the Lord, and the Lord had decided to enact his divine revenge. 🙂
Still have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about… 🙂
“Well, Sammy, just because something doesn’t exhibit malicious intent doesn’t mean that not dangerous. Venomous snakes are often nice to look at but they can kill you. Also, they never attack out of malice. They attack out of instinct.”
If you mean a naive male romantic becomes infatuated with a beautiful young lady he romanticises, and that young lady notices his infatuation and chooses to do whatever she can to pull him deeper into infatuation with her (regardless of whether or not she earnestly reciprocates his feelings), then, yes, I agree with you, that is a situation fraught with emotional danger for the gentleman in question – should the gentleman in question be vulnerable to the siren call of infatuation in the first place.
(What a long sentence! Maybe Marcia can chop it up into shorter sentences for me? I hear she moonlights as an editor). 🙂
I think what you’re saying is you’re very prone to limerence for a certain kind of lady. And if that lady innocently notices your weakness and innocently chooses to pull you in deeper, well, a situation that might be harmless to other men would be harmful to you. (Because you wish to preserve trust in your marriage, etc, etc).
Limerence thrives in circumstances where there is neither clear rejection nor clear reciprocation. 😜
P.S. Can I have your copy of Gentlemen Gardeners’ Gazette when you’re done with it? 🙂
@MJ.
“Sammy Friend, you make me laugh.. I love your vibe and let me also add, I’m never offended by any of your posts..😂😂😂”
I’ve discovered the cure for limerence! No, I’m being 100% serious! I’ve discovered a habit so disgusting (to me) it dissolves my feelings of infatuation on the spot. (At least for male LOs. The trait would be harder for men to observe in women).
Miracle cure: LO doesn’t wash his hands after using the lavatory! We’re not talking not washing after number ones! We’re talking not washing after number twos! I don’t want to die of food poisoning because someone has poor personal hygiene… 😲😲😲😲
I may be desperate, but I’m not that desperate. Game over, mate. Ciao. 🤣🤣🤣
It’s an interesting point about the power differential, clear workplace rules and also the uncomfortableness of unwanted romantic attention. I think changing social mores creates an interesting lens for limerence.
There’s are situations where the moral rules and boundaries of bad behaviour are are set lower. It could be when two people are available, where the sort of thing above is actually fine, but woudl be considered just very weird at the moment. Alternatively there are a few cases of posters reporting limerence for ex-partners or after failed romances, where the lunacy is often a denial that a relationship failed, but without all that stalky stalky kind of stuff.
I think that also helps bring into focus what some LOs might actually perceive as a moral obligation to humour or at least tolerate the attention. It’s good that it is gettign to a point where she can report something like this and it has consequences, but it raises some related questions:
– how do these errant forms of mating behaviour change if social mores change? With courting patterns becoming more and more consensual, could limerence at some point be classified as being as unacceptable as stalking is now or does it adapt to social mores?
– can limerents be less ‘leaky’ if limerent declarations are judged to be more socially inappropriate than was historically the case, or are they caught in the madness?
I should hope it wouldn’t be considered unacceptable, if the limerent isn’t doing anything wrong, just like, say, neurodivergence is getting more accepted. But the changing of social mores is on my mind lately as I read the new book Consent by Jill Ciment. She discusses how attitudes toward a relationship like hers have changed in the past 50 years: She was a 17-year-old student and he was her 48-year-old, married teacher. But they were married to each other till his recent death. She wonders how she should look at it now, post Metoo. She points out things that do sound very predatory, but this was her husband all her life! Should that color everything? Back then there were also other predatory faculty members at her college. I’m amazed at what they got away with in 1970. It’s fascinating reading her story.
Hello friends. I’ve been dipping in and out so have missed most conversations. Sorry not to contribute to discussions. Me LE is lingering; as much as I feel better about it and have clarity in some areas. Contact with LO still occurs infrequently mainly instigated by me, sometimes by him. Suffering minor set back from most recent interaction whereby LO had no recollection of telling me something that we had been messaging about a few days prior. But hey, nothing personal right? The fact that the setback is lasting a few days isn’t good though so as any good millennial, I’m throwing myself full force in to an emo music playlist. This will pass, just need to process in silent and intentionally reduce contact despite no doubt, the gremlins who are about to plant excellent message idea seeds in my mind.
Hope you’re all doing well 🙏
Whoomp, those gremlins are a crafty bunch! Can you get them busy on another project? And I feel you on the getting upset about LO not remembering what you talked about. (See my comment on getting hurt about various things.) Repeat after me: he’s not worth getting upset about it!
Please remember: don’t feed the trolls.
Can poems sedate trolls?
****
Speaking Tree
Joy Harjo
1951 –
I had a beautiful dream I was dancing with a tree.
—Sandra Cisneros
Some things on this earth are unspeakable:
Genealogy of the broken—
A shy wind threading leaves after a massacre,
Or the smell of coffee and no one there—
Some humans say trees are not sentient beings,
But they do not understand poetry—
Nor can they hear the singing of trees when they are fed by
Wind, or water music—
Or hear their cries of anguish when they are broken and bereft—
Now I am a woman longing to be a tree, planted in a moist, dark earth
Between sunrise and sunset—
I cannot walk through all realms—
I carry a yearning I cannot bear alone in the dark—
What shall I do with all this heartache?
The deepest-rooted dream of a tree is to walk
Even just a little ways, from the place next to the doorway—
To the edge of the river of life, and drink—
I have heard trees talking, long after the sun has gone down:
Imagine what would it be like to dance close together
In this land of water and knowledge . . .
To drink deep what is undrinkable.
********
To think what is unthinkable
To reach what is unreachable
To touch what is untouchable
To weave what is unwoven
To connect what is unconnected
🐦🔥
Who was trolling? Did something get deleted?
🦉🧐
Prefers to be silent,
Thank you for luring a snake out of its hole to confess without being pressed…
@Snow,
I decided to move our chat here instead of continuing on the Helen Fisher post. I feel bad hijacking that one off topic, but also don’t want to write on the new Coffeehouse as there is too much going on there, and DrL needs his social media input too.
I can’t find the bit where I first asked you about muses (it got lost behind fields of 🌽 and 🍌) to quote your original reply, but I remember the gist. You came back to it with this point:
“careful in implying you might have mutually watered a Muse-seeds in her… 😂 the other way around sounds more organically …”
Yes, maybe I threw the muse word around far too casually. Fair. Sticking to the facts, I know and LO has confirmed that we inspired each other through dialogues to create things, sometimes alone, sometimes to co-create. Not great works of the arts to go down in history, but tangible creations all the same including something we have made money from selling. Some of it is purely circumstancial that it happened at that time. The process was quite inspiring – it fed my LE and the LE then carried on feeding it. None of this means LO reciprocates, nor do I assume (now) that it ever did mean that. All that is possible through friendship, but I know I got confused and addled by it. Doesn’t mean she did.
“My LE of that time was a dream, what was yours? If you could really nail it down and remove it, you may get out LE naturally …”
Not a dream, at least not that I remember (I can pick up how very important dreams are to you. I need to work harder at remembering mine. But dreams of LO are rarely unpleasant). At the time of my LE, it was a perfect storm of circumstances – all of work, family, SO and mental health were challenging. LO (by then a very close friend) showed incredible empathy and support with these things, letting me talk about them, or just distracting me, depending what was needed. As said before, I let her get behind my carefully constructed and maintained boundary walls at that point – not so much about SO, but about the other things.
When the fog cleared a bit on some of those issues, I had time and energy that could be released for some more enjoyable and creative pursuits and LO became a big part of those (rightly or wrongly – it is just what happened).
The glimmer was quite early in that sequence of events but is grounded not in a dream but in a firm ‘eye-locking’ moment of reality where, as I have put it before, ‘a switch flipped’ in me.
” … without hurting your friendship, which I would use all my might to save/keep if in your shoe.”
I mentioned above that this is very empathic of you to say. I saw LO for a long spell today and it was obvious to me that the friendship is in very good health. I probably do owe her good character a lot of credit for that, for putting up with my inevitable leakage and sometimes overwhelm around her. If she was not the character she was, it could have turned out much much worse for me. But where you mention ‘save’, unless she throws me a real loop (and I have a long pre LE friendship to draw experiences from that suggests she won’t), it does not feel like something that needs saving; it feels pretty safe now. I am past the risk of disclosing. I am no longer questioning whether or not she has feelings for me – I have moved more down the road Bewitched has of ‘maybe he/she does, maybe he/she doesn’t, but more importantly it doesn’t matter in this situation’. Sometimes she even annoys me a little bit again now (as it was before LE). Doesn’t mean she doesnt still glimmer like a beacon in my mind, but I feel much more at peace with the not knowing and not acting. All I ever said is that I want to come out of this with her as a friend. What I have now is some confidence I know how to.
Maybe I will relapse, who knows. But the relapses before were on a weekly cycle. I know I am writing a lot about it, but this is in answer to you and others asking me specific questions – and writing it out helps processing. But I have not had a day of real distress about it now for around a month or two. The highs are less high and the lows less low. I also find I can be more present with SO – very welcome. It is as you said it could be – that LO would only stop intruding so much in my head when I stopped fighting her presence there.
I have turned a corner without doing a nuclear NC or ghosting, and I can’t thank you enough for how your ‘Western-Easterner’ perspective has helped me get this far.
I hope this clarifies a few more bits of the cornfield!
LaR,
I got quite busy with exams and the observation time…
“I can’t find the bit where I first asked you about muses (it got lost behind fields of 🌽 and 🍌) to quote your original reply…”
If your muses (mixed and shared with you LO’s) are already lost behind fields of 🌽 and 🍌, how can I find them? I certainly don’t want to intrude there….😂 Perhaps Trifles on the motorbike of her agriculture expert, could help you search in those edgeless, beautiful fields… 😂😂 I’ll just 🫣 down from the sky 🐦🔥 !
“ I know and LO has confirmed that we inspired each other through dialogues to create things, sometimes alone, sometimes to co-create.”
Hmmmm….If you know for sure, then it’s GREAT and plenty enough, why telling me? to make me jealous? 😒 I had to labor soooo hard all on my own 🤕 !
“Not great works of the arts to go down in history, but tangible creations all the same including something we have made money from selling. “
As long as your co-inspired arts are not tiny replicas of you and LO, then your arts will “go down in history” as your greatest victory over LE ! — DrL would be really proud! Could I have a slice of that artistic cake?🍰 ? (not ripe banana or steamed fresh corns…)
“The process was quite inspiring – it fed my LE and the LE then carried on feeding it. None of this means LO reciprocates, nor do I assume (now) that it ever did mean that. All that is possible through friendship, but I know I got confused and addled by it. Doesn’t mean she did.“
At this point, I think to assume the process was NOT more than friendship will help you get out of your LE, and strengthen the close friendship tie. LE certainly gets EVERY limerent “addled” in almost everything she or he touched during LEs, so don’t feel any shame about it! Just REMEMBER DrL’s gentle voice and profound understanding of this neurochemical phenomenon — if you get flu, you’re going to have a runny nose , period! At least your co-created arts are not some running-nose, diaper-wearing replicas of you and LO! 😂
Your LO sounds like a true empathetic and supportive friend during your most “stormy” time, I’d cherish and deeply appreciate such supports to the end of my life (you don’t have to tell her now, since your LE is not quite over yet), regardless whatever annoying “defects” she had/has. ET was far from perfect, but he appeared by chance, incidentally and kindly “saved” me from the drowning during my, biggest, shocking loss of Father and the sudden “intrusion” and burden of Narc Mother… so even with all later painful LE disillusionment, I held my sincere gratitude for ET just for that matter. One should not mix up matter A with matter B; appreciate A even if dislike/hate B; everyone has colors of black, white, gray and peach….
Glimmer coming from eye locking is quite neurologically/chemically natural (from DNA); that’s why so many actors and actresses “fell in love” during film shouting, one after another, and later even after they got together with their offsprings running around, some of them still wanted to shout each other!
“I saw LO for a long spell today and it was obvious to me that the friendship is in very good health. I probably do owe her good character a lot of credit for that, for putting up with my inevitable leakage and sometimes overwhelm around her. If she was not the character she was, it could have turned out much much worse for me…”
You’re lucky that your glimmer seemed to have chosen a right/matching LO for you , and your mutual “muse-seeding” and watering has fruited in substantial, tangible profits. So just try not to let LE “weeds” to ruin a beautiful 🌽 🌽 🌽 fields…
“I am past the risk of disclosing. I am no longer questioning whether or not she has feelings for me – I have moved more down the road Bewitched has of ‘maybe he/she does, maybe he/she doesn’t, but more importantly it doesn’t matter in this situation’. “
Precisely! — it does NOT matter to know or not. You’ve been growing a golden ear of 🌽 helped by Bewitched’s golden head of 🌻 . Keep watering it!
“I have turned a corner without doing a nuclear NC or ghosting, and I can’t thank you enough for how your ‘Western-Easterner’ perspective has helped me get this far.
Hmm..🧐 what do I get as a substantial reward? 🤔 Could you bring my ET 😎 back❓
“I hope this clarifies a few more bits of the cornfield!“
Oh, No! Please, please keep your cornfield clothed/veiled…. I don’t want to see them wearing those transparent, U-shaped “hats”… 😂😂😂
Hi Snow,
Finally getting round to replying to a few bits on here that were in the ‘twice-deleted draft’.
“Hmmmm….If you know for sure, then it’s GREAT and plenty enough, why telling me? to make me jealous? 😒 I had to labor soooo hard all on my own 🤕 !”
and
“Hmm..🧐 what do I get as a substantial reward? 🤔 Could you bring my ET 😎 back❓”
I threw the ‘muse’ word around too casually. Jealousy-provoking definitely wasn’t the motivation. I think I was trying to get something validated that in fact – as you said – I can validate for myself. I am coming to a bit of a conclusion that there has been ‘mutual magnets for Apollo’ in my relationship with LO. I think that feels agreeable to me now I have decided to settle on ‘not mutual Aphrodite’. I suspect the truth lies somewhere between that and a theory that all the seed-watering was done by her. More magnets on my side, but some on hers. I am confident I haven’t ‘planted’ the way she has behaved or things she has said through the LE, as so much of it was there before, and she never says or does anything if she feels it is inauthentic (observed by me in how she relates to others).
So why was I looking for validation? I believe because some of it is still a puzzle to me. She is way the more naturally creative person out of the two of us. Although I observe that she struggles to believe it, she could easily find a more creative person than me to co-create with or inspire creativity (and even get such people ‘on the hook’ if she wanted to, if I dare put it that way). And yet she doesn’t. I think this is another issue that can be consigned to Bewitched’s famous “doesn’t really matter” basket – in that the facts of it are the facts of it, without me needing to delve more into why (‘futility’). I guess I was just thinking it out aloud before in the ‘muse’ post.
I am sorry it felt like such a slow and lonely labour for you. I really do feel that the LE has achieved things for you – not the typical outcomes of an LE but in terms of healing and self awareness. I think you have natural creativity in yourself that is now yours to use wisely with your phantom reclaimed. Sure, it would be nice to share that with others. I hope we here at LwL help a little in our weird distant ghostly way. In real life, keep open to those who spark your creativity and passions in life, glimmer or no glimmer. Do you find these people (ignore glimmer part) are few and far between, or do you naturally meet them from time to time?
As regards E.T., I got the vibe from the post to me where you explained your LE and your disclosure that you felt ready to move on, and ready to move the conversation on here from too much talk of him. I am not trying to discourage you from talking with him if and when it feels right or helps you, at all – just explaining why I didn’t go any further in my replies to those threads of the conversation. I can tell he is playing on your mind a little lately (like you said, it comes out through your poetry). Just watch him come in and out of mind and be gentle with yourself about it. I think LEs (from what I read about others) often have a long ‘tail’, even after the most intense bit subsides. This could possibly be what is happening. He was a big part of your life for a long time. I am glad you came out of it with positive memories of the experience in the main, even if they were unexpected ones.
Typo – but important one – talking *about him, not talking *with him!
Hi LaR,
So nice to see your morning “face”! 👻
“I threw the ‘muse’ word around too casually. Jealousy-provoking definitely wasn’t the motivation. “
I know it was not. But one could not help feel envious of another’s luck.
“I think I was trying to get something validated that in fact – as you said – I can validate for myself. “
Exactly. Without knowing your realistic situations, we cannot really validate whatever you tell us — the second hand information. What I/we could do was/is to activate/strengthen your own self-validation ability and confidence in your self-evaluation.
“I am coming to a bit of a conclusion that there has been ‘mutual magnets for Apollo’ in my relationship with LO. I think that feels agreeable to me now I have decided to settle on ‘not mutual Aphrodite’.”
Aphrodite is a biggest vain whim most of the time! So looking up at one’s own Apollo 🎵 is always inspiring, reliable and substantial even if one needs to lament one’s sorrows — sad songs could sound beautiful and very soothing— expressing oneself vitally stimulates creative-energy’s flow; it takes away a half of pains/longings. It doubles the existing joys.
“I suspect the truth lies somewhere between that and a theory that all the seed-watering was done by her. More magnets on my side, but some on hers. I am confident I haven’t ‘planted’ the way she has behaved or things she has said through the LE, as so much of it was there before, and she never says or does anything if she feels it is inauthentic (observed by me in how she relates to others). “
Then I’d feel deeply grateful that this LE has more positive/shinny sides. Be careful not to gloat about it, a lot of us here are still suffering our LE’s misfortunate downsides.
“So why was I looking for validation? I believe because some of it is still a puzzle to me.”
I think here is the important question you could dig deeper in you for answer. I had/have to do it all the time, until I traced it all back to cptsd’s accumulated incidents. Some horrific memories were wiped out instantly back then….
“She is way the more naturally creative person out of the two of us. Although I observe that she struggles to believe it, she could easily find a more creative person than me to co-create with or inspire creativity (and even get such people ‘on the hook’ if she wanted to, if I dare put it that way). And yet she doesn’t. “
Here sounds like your insecurity, that also comes with the Monster of Comparison…. Did you feel this way prior to LE, or often had this vague doubt, (with others as well) “why does she/he want to befriend with me?”
“I think this is another issue that can be consigned to Bewitched’s famous “doesn’t really matter” basket – in that the facts of it are the facts of it, without me needing to delve more into why (‘futility’). I guess I was just thinking it out aloud before in the ‘muse’ post.”
I totally agree with Bewitched here. Can we all just BE OURSELVES, diving into our favorite activities, w/o interacting with others, and then appreciate whatever preferred fruits they bring to us? If they don’t fruit as we have wished, then apply our Stoic principles — farmers plant and attend corps with their best efforts, regardless what the Fall might turn out. Too many whys/curiosities really kill the CAT.
“I am sorry it felt like such a slow and lonely labour for you. I really do feel that the LE has achieved things for you – not the typical outcomes of an LE but in terms of healing and self awareness. “
Every coin, including LE, has two sides. Holding one side, another stays along; one just cannot have IT ALL! In my case, healing needs to come from my within, so the LE unexpectedly served as a fuse. After I realized LE’s function in my healing journey, I continued the process (also informed the wanton ET who simultaneously triggering and healing my cptsd — an undeniable duality!) until I have tamed the cptsd beast, who has no power any longer.
“I think you have natural creativity in yourself that is now yours to use wisely with your phantom reclaimed. Sure, it would be nice to share that with others. I hope we here at LwL help a little in our weird distant ghostly way. “
Yes. My phantom is firmly reclaimed, and I’m sharing his tiny bit of work with your ghosts. As I just told Bewitched, you guys are invaluably helping my mind and spirit, my continuous healing, and my baby steps on a renewed path, though I have to be careful not to ramble at night, or I’d lose sleeping hours.
“As regards E.T., I got the vibe from the post to me where you explained your LE and your disclosure that you felt ready to move on, and ready to move the conversation on here from too much talk of him.”
I never liked to talk about E.T. in details here and regretted I did a little too much back in Feb-April of this year. Talking about 👽 (feeding the thought) not only makes me feel longing/sad/upset but also makes it easy to elongate this LE’s already long tail (4/17-6/24)
“I can tell he is playing on your mind a little lately (like you said, it comes out through your poetry). “
So far, I am unable to forget the distanced 👽 completely and will not try it. Old memories still make me glad and mad, depending on my moods, because there was/is a part of me left with him — the part I saw on his face in my Glimmer and stared at on his farewell smiles after 8 years. This never happened in all my previous smaller LEs combined.
How does one cut off/abandon a piece of one’s own Self in one’s system (neurological/physiological or not)❓I 💓 my current multifaceted Self!
LaR,
The Unconscious struck again last night, against what I definitively said/wrote/wished here—
I was awaken three times (normally none) without drink excessive water before bedtime, could not remember any details of dream(a), and woke up with a dizzy, jammed head filled with annoying the dark sides of ET and the LE!
Then I had to meditate nearly an hour to clear up my heavy head and to feel Qi moving. Now I’m neutral, not so “repulsed” by the negative memories…
At least for me, the Unconscious strikes, tames, or balances out my strong wishes/emotions/wills of any kind. So I have to keep my mind/heart open, not making any definitive statement or declaration in the emotion department.
It’s futile trying to control one’s feelings; actions, YES❗️❗️
Oh Snow, I hope you’re OK after those dreams. It is like a correction, as you said, isn’t it – an autocorrection. There *was* both dark and light sides to the coin, and the more your conscious pushes one side, the more your subconscious feels the need to show you the other.
There is darkness and light in all of it, to be sure. I felt I was too much on the ‘darkness’ side (about my internal struggles) when I started talking on LwL, so I have maybe focused more lately on the ‘light’ side in my words. I am sorry if that has come across as gloating – I will be more mindful about how I post. I haven’t intended to gloat or really felt like the whole LE has given me much to gloat about (a lot of rumination, internal pain, moralising and guilt). But the creativity I got out of it has definitely been a good thing that I want to celebrate.
Returning to what you said about these dreams has reminded me to check another loose end of our thread. I meant to write about this before, but forgot:
“At this point, I think to assume the process was NOT more than friendship will help you get out of your LE, and strengthen the close friendship tie.”
If I try too hard to assume this strongly to be the case, isn’t there the danger that my subconscious will simply go off the other way and try to convince me otherwise?! I do lean towards this version now. But what you’ve said about dreams gets me thinking. Back when I used to think the attraction with LO was quite likely mutual, dreams came and corrected me and showed me she was unobtainable. Since I have cracked down on my conscious and told myself “no, it was never more than friendship for her”, my subconscious has started to put more reverie into the dreams, and she is often more ‘obtainable’ in them. The mind is a mysterious beast, isn’t it?
“Did you feel this way prior to LE, or often had this vague doubt, (with others as well) “why does she/he want to befriend with me?” ”
I used to feel like that quite a lot when I was younger, but less so / hardly at all any more, after work I did in therapy many years ago and with all the life experience I have gained since. I can nowadays feel quite confident why some people will like me and others not, and not let it get me bothered either way. With LO, though, that old insecurity has cropped back up and I do indeed sometimes question why she likes me. I am almost certain it is the madness of limerence doing that to me, as I don’t remember it really being a factor in all the years with her before the glimmer.
A good thing that is coming out of the dialogues between several of us on this site is how futile it is to keep asking ‘why is something the case?, when just the obvious evidence ‘that’ something is the case is enough really.
@LaR
I’m still feeling “pissed” (by some old memory) along with a mild cold (not covid) I caught yesterday. When one is even a little bit sick, Qi is not flowing well in certain areas of the body. The bright side of life is still visible, but has little effect to make one feel cheerful or even peaceful; therefore, a dark “Lord” dances…. This is how Body affects Mind.
“There *was* both dark and light sides to the coin, and the more your conscious pushes one side, the more your subconscious feels the need to show you the other.”
Exactly!( It was one of Jung’s ideas, and it worked in my situations even before I knew who he was), which I have been testing. Jung believes Unconscious is an alive “Being” inside us, and reacts to whatever we think and feel — has to be TRULY think or feel, not falsely or pretentiously. One cannot cheat one’s own Unconscious.
“I am sorry if that has come across as gloating – I will be more mindful about how I post. I haven’t intended to gloat or really felt like the whole LE has given me much to gloat about (a lot of rumination, internal pain, moralising and guilt). “
I was kidding to say that you’re “gloating”, you were not. The shared creativity between you and LO— a mutual inspiration of Apollo, is a bright side of an LE I (maybe some others here) would wish most, giving solid substance one’s whole being, whether Aphrodite is reciprocated or not.
“At this point, I think to assume the process was NOT more than friendship will help you get out of your LE, and strengthen the close friendship tie.”
If I try too hard to assume this strongly to be the case, isn’t there the danger that my subconscious will simply go off the other way and try to convince me otherwise?!”
I did not say “try hard”. My experience with the Unconscious is that one is allowed to have any ideas, thoughts, feelings, but do NOT try hard, or determine, or definitively declare any thoughts or emotions — they surf and ebb 24/7. If one strongly wills, or tries to hold onto, or repress down/deny/ renounce some thoughts/emotions, the Unconscious WILL react, interfere, and balance them out. The words, “leaning”, assume, maybe, hopefully, most likely, sometimes, partly, … are better to use in MIND (not just in writing).
“Since I have cracked down on my conscious and told myself “no, it was never more than friendship for her”, my subconscious has started to put more reverie into the dreams, and she is often more ‘obtainable’ in them. The mind is a mysterious beast, isn’t it?”
The word “never” was used in your conscious here. Use “maybe” or “perhaps a little bit” here or there, etc. leaving rooms for other possibilities. Plus, anyone’s mind is never set to stone (otherwise, we could not heal from any distress), so our thoughts/illusions or feelings/whips perhaps come from some seeds or scattered sprouts, but whether those sprouts could grow into mature crops would take time to find out. The questions is: is there right soil and climate for those scattered sprout to grow?
“With LO, though, that old insecurity has cropped back up and I do indeed sometimes question why she likes me. I am almost certain it is the madness of limerence doing that to me, as I don’t remember it really being a factor in all the years with her before the glimmer.”
Yes, limerence can make a very confident person lose his or her previous confidence with all others, because the pair-bonding is the strongest drive, subconsciously “control” all of us, and limerents wish for reciprocation that is not up to their drives alone.
“A good thing that is coming out of the dialogues between several of us on this site is how futile it is to keep asking ‘why is something the case?, when just the obvious evidence ‘that’ something is the case is enough really.”
In most of our cases here, there is a big barrier — SO on either or both sides. If SO is absent, I think many cases we have analyzed here (LO likes me or not? Why LO acts or reacts that way to me? …) would be manifested in different aspects (when no moralistic barriers). It is FUTILE, in most cases here, because SO is still beneficially rooted or existed in the dynamics of our LEs.
I feel less pissed now after writing this post. Expressing one’s negative emotions could diminish a half of their pains.
Typo: “giving solid substance to one’s whole being”
“or feelings/whims”
LaR,
The most hope-luring and anxiety-inducing duality to deal with in life is UNCERTAINTY. In one way, it drives out our anxiety (some are necessary for achievement); the opposite the coin — leaving hope for efforts.
If sensing/seeing some kind of possibility or hope in our endeavors, we keep trying them with anxieties. And for some, to stop hoping means spiritual or metaphorical death. Maybe 100% Stoics do not hope anything, but expect all worsts most of time. But how many were/are Marcus Aurelius or Epictetus or Seneca? I think Jungian theories have more sounding roots.
If told that s/he definitely cannot have their book published, in most of case, s/he would stop even trying to writing anything. But few would still try for merely enjoyment of the process—writing itself.
Death is our shared ultimate destitution, but most of us still try to live our best, enjoying the journey itself with our chosen train(s).
In friendship, romance, and limerence, another similar (to ours) “fickle” mind is involved, so anxiety is 10 or 100 times-fold larger. What makes it so hard to manage is that we know barriers can’t be overcome, but our LE mind would not stop longing LO’s reciprocation regardless their availability. And if LO (un)consciously “play amorous games” along, for their insecurity or vanity or whatever reasons, then we are painfully stuck in the duality of UNCERTAINTY. And if you challenge and try to firmly battle with uncertainty, the Unconscious comes out to battle your “victories”.
The ultimate challenging lies in living with UNCERTAINTY, that of limerence or life as a whole, with a maximum equilibrium or serenity while grounding one’s actions bearing inevitable pains and heartaches, merry-go-round.
Snow,
Thanks for all your replies, profoundly thought out as usual. It amuses me when people with American English say ‘pissed’. On my side of the ocean ‘pissed’ only means ‘drunk’, whereas ‘pissed off’ is needed to comminicate what you meant.
Thanks for clarifying that you did not say ‘try too hard’ and also the need for cautious language in our conscious formulations of things (specifically LEs) as well as in writing. Noted!
“The ultimate challenging lies in living with UNCERTAINTY, that of limerence or life as a whole, with a maximum equilibrium or serenity while grounding one’s actions bearing inevitable pains and heartaches, merry-go-round.”
Yes, I agree. Dr L’s post on ‘Living with Uncertainty’ as well as ‘Closure is an Illusion’ have been the two most influential and returned to ones for me as I have tried to work out all the bits the LE has thrown at me – and the ones that shape my strategy to it now.
Hello friends. Just wanted to update on my LE. As I may have mentioned before, LO contact has gone down significantly – both real and virtual. This has helped me to maintain a sense of calm state of mind. However, there was a recent interaction that was quite warm, a little more than previous occasions. It sure did release a bunch of happy chemicals, sort of like the highs that I experienced earlier. I was hoping that LO interactions do not stir up emotions on the scale that this interaction did.
One thing I observed oddly is that in the past, I used to be hooked to LO interactions, like a drug, as in I used to crave for more interactions, and NC made me feel low. This is not the situation now. I am okay with the periods of NC, not much craving or feeling low.
So, this is how my LE is panning out, I think. There will be periods of NC, followed by sporadic interactions. Warm interactions leading to feelings of high, and cold ones not bothering me so much.
I know there are many who are “getting out” of their LEs. If you have any LO contact, how do you feel afterwards? Do you feel same as earlier? It would be interesting to hear.
Thanks for listening. Hope I am making some sense.
As always, would appreciate any advice.
ABCD,
I am less far out of it than you, and not making active NC attempts (don’t really want to, but more is the point, logistically can’t). But I will have a go at your question anyway:
“If you have any LO contact, how do you feel afterwards? Do you feel same as earlier?”
No, I feel a bit more indifferent. Less high after a good interaction and less low after a worse one. More sure in both cases that things will just pivot back to a normal level rather than assuming like before that the high or low ‘means something more’. A little more like it runs in the middle/back of my mind than right at the front. Less reverie and rumination. But still a long way to go to be sure it is a permanent change, not just an extended better spell (but is the first better spell like it that I’ve had across the whole thing).
Sounds like yours is getting easier – keep going! How long has it taken you to get to this point? I’m at 18 months give or take.
Hi LaR. That you have less reverie and rumination means you are moving forward in this. Seems to me that your highs and lows are tapering out – also good.
Though I am having some success with my lows, I need to work more on the rumination. It is more of a work in progress. It is my habit to overanalyse everything, not just LE, so this is not very easy to do.
My LE has been going on for over 2.5 years now. Had low grade depression during the worst phase. Feel better now, but definitely not out of the woods. I am thinking for that to happen, either I or LO need to move out someplace else, which is not happening. So, now it is all about managing the interactions.
Good luck!
@ABCD,
That all sounds encouraging for you, moving more to equilbrium. Sorry but not surprised to hear you went through some depression at the heart of it (bit worried might be saving mine up for later). Yeah, I feel past that horrible ‘heart of it’ spell (lasted about 9 months) but not out of the woods and aware there could be a ‘long tail’ if, like you, LO and I don’t become geographically separated. Prone to general rumination too! Keep doing all you’re doing.
@Mila,
We don’t want you to stop sharing it! (As long as it helps you that is).
I hear all you said there about a swing too much in the other direction in your feelings and actions. Still wonder if this is a step on the route to a better equilibrium that maybe it just isn’t possible for you to figure out the look of just yet.
Hi ABCD,
It’s interesting that you experience the highs now, but not the lows anymore ? Sounds perfect. With me, either there were high highs and low lows, or less highs and less lows, they seemed to correlate in intensity.
I had LO contact yesterday, too, and haven’t quite made up my mind about it. I think I made myself a picture of him while limerent, that doesn’t match the real LO, and now to get out of limerence I made a negative one that might also not quite match reality.
I didn’t have any highs, but felt low afterwards. I also think that I developed a mechanism to shut down any warm feelings towards LO. Which is good for shutting down limerent feelings, but probably shuts down „normal“ friendly feelings too.
As I leaked limerence I now leak a bit of unfriendliness too, I’m afraid. I do all the actions required for friendship, but I guess I’m being a bit cold in details. I guess also that he noticed since he went cold in texts now, and I noticed that that still hurts, but my mechanism already starts to shut that down too.
Basically it’s all a big shutting-down, which is the right thing to do, but is not a very happy business, I have to say. Maybe because it’s a goodbye from something one got quite used to and dependent on, and goodbyes are always hard.
ABCD,
as to rumination,
that‘s also something where an automatic shut-down occurs now. I still ruminate a bit, but it’s because I have to mull over if I’m being unfair and destroying the friendship, if that is really necessary, and now I always come to the conclusion that no, it’s not wholly fair, but the alternative would be getting closer again, and, limerence aside, it wouldn’t be good now- it would get into the old rut of texting too often without deeper content, and it seems I cannot have that frequency with LO without expecting too much or getting annoyed at him. Better this way.
(seems I cannot shut down the updating here though..)
Hi Mila. Thanks for sharing. Yeah, highs without lows sounds counter intuitive, as I expected that with time, both highs and lows would reduce in intensity. They were both pretty intense to begin with.
It is good to hear about your shutting off mechanism. I am sure it will help you in the long run, hang in there. It would not have been easy, I am sure, so good job going for this. I am hoping you would not feel as low in due course of time?
It is always good to update here, I have found it very useful.
The frequency of my LO contact was not high to begin with. With the passage of time and with reduction of contact, I thought that my mind would be more “calm” and “objective” during the next interaction, but as I just figured out, that did not happen. It’s just how I felt at that point of time.
So, now, the events happen like this: NC -> LO interaction -> feel good for a while -> NC [do not feel as crappy as before], and the cycle repeats.
I am going to make strong efforts for the rumination. Hope I can do better on this front.
All the best!
Hi ABCD and Lim-a-Rant,
thanks for the kind words.
Reining rumination in is very important, and maybe one needs to make a conscious effort. Maybe do the old trick, once you realize you ruminate, to tell yourself „stop!“ (Bewitched would add „futile!“) and immediately distract yourself. The thing is, to be able to do that, one probably has to 1. really want it,2. have recognized and internalized the futility.
But I think you are both on not such a bad way there, from what I read.
My LO just made an unexpected and rather grand gesture/gift that threw me a bit. Don’t know what to make of that now, there are several explanations that throw different lights on it, so it‘s hard for me not to ruminate now. Good thing that I‘ll be very busy on the weekend.
„ My LO just made an unexpected and rather grand gesture/gift that threw me a bit.“
He called to explain, and it‘s very typical and again hints at his neurodivergence, but in his own way it’s really very sweet. Darn.
Dear Mila, ABCD, LaR,
Mila and my trajectories are so similar in some ways that it’s uncanny. I had LO contact this week too, after a long NC when I had all but forgotten him. He asked me for something and I delayed replying as I was busy. But – rumination -! had negative thoughts about how he presses on me and expects me to drop everything (like he would, if situation was reversed, we are quite dissimilar in our approach to work). Anyway, I eventually replied and said I’m swamped can you wait? Instead of arguing, like he has before by subtly minimising how long he thinks the job will take (always under estimating, of course, I ruminated about all of this!!), he sent back a lovely message with a considerate and kind extra gesture. Now I am back to ruminating slightly positively on him! Moral of the story? I really think NC or as LC as possible is very very helpful. Lengthen out the gaps between contact if you can.
Good to be busy too, Mila!
ABCD, Mila, Bewitched, LaR,
All your updates make me smile warmly, we now all know well and expect how LE could make our ruminating-brain move two steps forward and then one step back… But it’s no longer a surprise, that’s a substantial mental leap!
Of course, it’s easier for a “bystander” to watch… If it were for me, I might “jump” in rumination, staring at the moonlight through night, not just sit as cool as your guys/girls!
You all sound like getting to the exit of the LE maze… Keep going with your patience, strength and wisdom! 💪
Hi ABCD (and LaR),
I just wanted to say that I reckon that Dorothy Tennov’s postulation that limerence lasts 2-3 years may be correct, especially when factoring-in NC or strong LC. A few of us who have been posting here seem to be improving on that sort of time frame? Mine was a bit longer but her I am including a lengthy NC in the beginning, before it really crystallised and took off properly I reckon about 2 years ago. I do think some people can exit faster due to less rumination/self medication than others.
Bewitched,
If one has OCD, like me, even before or between LEs, that average years of LE would be extended, I believe, regardless LC/NC.
You said you have OCD as well, but I have a sense that it is much less intense than mine, remembered since I was 4 yrs old — every stubborn argument with my cousins or Granny made internal hot steam/blood shouting up to my head — I tend to remember well my senses or sensations about events, but not events themselves in details.
But total NC is the most effective way to starve LE, of which even if one is unwilling to get out….
Hi all! It’s a nice supportive culture here when we can hear encouraging stories from each other.
A point I find interesting is that we all need to find a story about reciprocation, or not, to begin getting comfortable with the “it really doesn’t matter” part for the long haul. Mila and Bewitched from what I can tell have erred towards that there probably was a degree of reciprocation, Snow and ABCD I am not sure about, and I am coming down on the side that there probably wasn’t and my brain invented it (but still don’t know – none of us has firm evidence?). Not saying any of these is better than any other, but we all seem to need to pin our colours to the mast on one of them to start pushing on.
I am hitting some quite significant anniversaries now of the epicentre of my LE and where I let the emotional boundaries collapse etc. Even the weather and the dropping light levels are reminding me of key events one year ago. It’s weird – like I am back there at times although I know I’m not really and have progressed. Reminiscing on it with all of a bit of reverie, relief and sadness.
Hi Bewitched and everyone,
yes to Bewitched and me running on parallel tracks, and, as I thought before, our LOs might even be a bit similar!
I think now that it‘s actually a good thing that mine did something nice that showed he cares, I’m not back to limerent ruminations but to friendlier feelings and the knowledge that he does and will always care.
It ended the negative spiraling that was related to limerence and threatened the friendship.
I can see him in a warmer light now. I still think it’s good to keep contact reduced. As I already said, 1.,those neuronal pathways are layed and it’s easy to slip back into the wrong way of rumination, 2., limerence aside, some of his ways are getting on my nerves sometimes and I’ll get less annoyed at him if there‘s not constant superficial contact.
Lim-a-Rant, with mine there definitely is reciprocation, but as he is very different from me, that means something very different from how I feel/behave.
Reminiscing is dangerous, but nice- just keep the now and here in mind..
I slipped into limerence maybe one and a half years ago, and am now slipping out of it- not sure about the 2 year time frame thing, I think my first LE was at least 3 years.
“Even the weather and the dropping light levels are reminding me of key events one year ago. It’s weird – like I am back there at times although I know I’m not really and have progressed.”
About anniversaries – I just passed the 1 year mark of the glimmer. And like LaR, the change of season reminds me of where I was last year at this time with regard to my LE. What songs I listened to, what we talked about, etc. I think the LE got me through the dark time of the year, and I wonder what will get me through this winter… (I will get through, it just won’t be the same.)
And I know I am past the LE – I practically only think about LO when I come on LwL. 😯
And now that I think back – my first LE started in October also. Hmm…
On her last day at the job, she had her daughter with her as it was summer and she was out of school. Towards the end of a hot summer day in June the man she was seeing at the time brought them both snow cones. Dunno if I’ll ever eat a snow cone again.
Reciprocation is a strange one for me. LO #1 didn’t give me much, but I met her in the context of a courtship ritual. She was really into my brother in-law, but she approached both of us and kind of chatted us both up. She was slightly flirty with both of us, but I didn’t become Limerent for her until I could see my BIL wasn’t going to go for it. I’m long over her, but she’s back in my life in a very small way (as a friend-of-a-friend).
I always thought LO #2 was fairly attractive, but I wasn’t blown away by her until she made some mildly flirtatious comments to me. I also used to give her some compliments on her looks, and she did seem to enjoy it. I’m definitely not her type, and I’ve moved on from her, but I think there was a small amount of validation to begin with.
The first time I noticed LO #3 was 18 months ago. She stood beside me for an unusually long time at a show. I knew she was at least a friend-of-a-friend. I got the distinct feeling she wanted me to talk to her, but I didn’t know what to say and I didn’t see the point (being married). Since then, I always noticed her out of the corner of my eye when she came out with us every couple of months (she never sat directly with us until about May this year). I never became limerent for her until I’d met her a few times and could see what a lovely person she was. I also felt like she enjoyed my company and gravitated towards me in some respects. But she wouldn’t accept my Facebook friend request after we got along really well at a night out a few weeks ago.
I never became limerent for my “glimmery friend,” and I suspect a lot of it is because she is married and I didn’t need any real validation from her. Her flirtatious behaviour left nothing to the imagination. For example, she told me the second time I met her that she had an affair and got caught. She basically told me the guy looked like me. She said and did many, many more flirtatious things as well, but I will not cheat on my wife despite how bad my marriage is. This lady is beautiful (think Selma Hayek type). I did have a bit of a garden variety crush on her, but it never progressed to full-blown limerence with her. I believe it is because there was no uncertainty. I’m pretty sure she liked me. For me, I think a little bit of validation plus a whole lot of uncertainty results in limerence.
@ Mila
My LO just made an unexpected and rather grand gesture/gift that threw me a bit.
What?!@
If my LO did that for me I’d be totally floored, and it would reverse months of me getting over her..
(her behaviour towards me was ‘breadcrumbing’, I think it’s called – doling out little bursts of affection, in between long periods of distance)
I don’t have much experience with neurodivergence. But I suppose it’s possible she may have ADHD.
To me, any grand gesture would be terribly significant.
It sounds like you are kind of used to it?
Hi ghostzoned,
my LO is a long-term friend I’ve known for more than ten years, we worked together , families met regularly etc. I got limerent when he left the workplace (fear of abandonment, uncertainty if he would come back). In the last year we were very close in a way, texting every day, and I’m not used to this kind of bigger gesture, but we had our moments before with smaller but also significant gestures. I did them too, more often than him. This one now is kind of a delayed answer to my goodbye gift.
I think LEs are very different. In another I also would be completely floored, but in this one I’m kind of used to knowing he likes me a lot, but somehow I craved another sort of gesture, some honest words about feelings for example. It’s hard to explain and I know it’s rare that someone gets so much certainty that LO cares. It still was a very vexing time, and the frequency of contact and half-knowledge of reciprocation made it even more tantalizing since of course I didn’t want to jeopardize my family and love my LO, but somehow couldn’t quell the limerence.
*“love my SO“, not LO, of course
Mila,
“I didn’t want to jeopardize my family and love my LO”
I saw you corrected it underneath, but please permit me a moment to say let’s embrace the spontaneous humour of that Freudian slip (which I reckon we have nearly all made and the lucky ones pressed delete on!)
Here are a couple of Freudian slip stories from my LE that might amuse you all.
This week when telling a story about a significant ex, LO slipped and used my name instead of his. I dismissed it quite easily as a slip (non Freudian) due to the fact I was sat opposite her at the time, but the potential for a rumination loop on that one could have been higb.
The second story is that once when out with SO walking the family’s dog, I called the dog by LO’s name! (again there is some similarities to how the names sound). Can you imagine me trying to explain that to SO? Don’t do this one, people.
Hi all,
@Mila, about the ‘grand gesture’ from your LO, do you think that he has been doing a bit of planning for a while and trying to reciprocate to your kind and thoughtful leaving gift? I would guess that to be a strong possibility. In which case, you can credit him for stepping outside his normal repertoire of reactions and trying to meet you half way as a close friend. Its actually a good example of things rarely being as black or white in inter-personal reactions as we imagine them with an LO. The truth lies somewhere in between.
Anyway, I am glad this ‘corrective’ has happened because its the next step to complete recovery (no negative hangover, in your case).
(And indeed your and my LO do sound similar! I think mine is more emotionally ‘available’ in the interpersonal regard, I don’t necessarily mean romantically. He is very warm but also poor at expressing himself and completely hyper, so difficult to communicate with at times).
Dear Snow,
I wanted to say that I am also feeling similar to you – I don’t want to lose the positive effects of my LE. For me, the positive effects were putting a stop to my ‘sleepwalking’ through my life and re-evaluating what was important to me. Like @Lost In Space, I too saw my husband in a new light due to limerence and that objectively, he was great for me (compared with LO). But I also felt very energised by the LE, which gave me the push to evaluate my life and take some decisions. Before the LE I had been in a work-home never-ending tunnel of tasks and responsibilities. But – danger! – now that LE is fading, how do we cope? I do not want to slip backwards to where I was before.
I think creativity is very important to you and you have said that many times. But is this a coping strategy or more an active wish and desire even when very inwardly happy and content?
I love creativity too but on its own, I find it a little isolating, and I have realised that while I need time to ‘stand and stare’ at beautiful things, I also I need other people in my life as they make me happy. Maybe the way I will live my best life post-limerence is to crowd-source that joy and be as open to human contact as possible, whether that is just in my everyday life, with nice strangers, in real life or on the internet
(mwah!)
Dear Bewitched,
Just woke up with a grand dream in which I was a film director, discussing with Father, a couple of faceless, male dictator/producer figures, how to shoot two very specific scenes, in the biggest square in the world. They were similar to Julius Caesar coming back from his victory with hundreds of troops or Mark Anthony with his troops carrying Cleopatra matching into her city… Only in my dream, SiFi effects and tons of cars were involved, while the purposes of the grand scene was UNCLEAR! No trace of MFF/ET at all… I was just a determined, overwhelmed, only female director in discussing, arguing, deciding the huge, detailed setting with a bunch of authoritative COO guys…
“I wanted to that I am also feeling similar to you – I don’t want to lose the positive effects of my LE.”
The same here. I am trying to keep polishing the sunny side of the coin and calmly acknowledging the other dark gray side.
“For me, the positive effects were putting a stop to my ‘sleepwalking’ through my life and re-evaluating what was important to me.”
These were the exactly same effects to me as well. Through my awakening, the deeply buried cptsd (also a primary cause of LE, not Glimmer) was dug up, treated, and mostly healed. So the positive side of my LE is a bit lopsided, more than I could ever excepted or anticipated, as long as I could calmly watch the non-reciprocated, pair-bonding desire (dominantly EA).
“Like @Lost In Space, I too saw my husband in a new light due to limerence and that objectively, he was great for me (compared with LO).”
Making a limerent to appreciate, love, and treat his/her spouse better is a POSITIVE effect of limerence (in most LE cases, it did not happen), regardless the causes of such an effect — more realistic and concrete than mere abstract, artistic or intellectual creation! Two specific human beings have tangibly benefited from a portion of your external LE behaviors, why bother chasing whys when the fruits are obvious? — sometimes curiosity does kill the cat! ignorance is a blessing!
When taking herbal remedies, acupuncture or meditating mindfully, we obtained health benefits without knowing how neurology and physiology had worked on a human body. It’d be nice to know but unnecessary; but so far there are little clear scientific explanations on causes (I linked a BBC documentary on the explanation through MRI). I allude energy-medicine effects to some of LE positive effects (such as yours and LiS’s treating your SO, and mine in boosted creativity. )
“Before the LE I had been in a work-home never-ending tunnel of tasks and responsibilities. But – danger! – now that LE is fading, how do we cope? I do not want to slip backwards to where I was before.”
I’m trying my might not to slip back to my gray existence prior to this LE. With much cptsd left, I wonder how much I will skip back, it’s a matter of quantity. The dimmed LE light, if not dead, is inevitable.
Since 13, I was seeing/sensing dullness of all tasks and even human existence. In COO creativity is little encouraged, since the government/its ideology wishes you NOT to have your own mind and then possibly rebel — just eat and drink plenty and be merry like a pig or sheep! Perpetually restless, I have achieved various effort-taking (in)tangible goals, but always ended with a post-three-day-excitement effect — perhaps a sign of a low degree depression? Then, I rolled back grayness of the sky looking for new arms. Only when crushed emotionally and chasing crushes, my life felt exciting and meaningful; all the rest mattered little — perhaps an impact of my unresolved cptsd? Now, I’m wondering if my “new” grayish sky is different from or similar to my old one.
“I think creativity is very important to you and you have said that many times. But is this a coping strategy or more an active wish and desire even when very inwardly happy and content?”
You’re asking an astronomical question to creators of all sizes and kinds — egg first or hen first? Like in animated objects, humans all have measurable/limited energy manifested in physical (sporty, sexual), mental (intellectual and creative), and emotional (romantic, friendly, familial) activities; which inspires, invigorates others or each other?
To be continued —
Typo: they should be —
1. “Looking for new aims/goals”
2. “Like in unanimated objects…”
Bewitched,
„he has been doing a bit of planning for a while and trying to reciprocate to your kind and thoughtful leaving gift?“
Definitely. While it is sweet, its also a bit of trying to get even, counting, if you know what I mean. That’s why I was first a bit dismissive of it- it’s typical for him, tit for tat, you paid this coffee, I have to pay the next one etc, and also mine was a complete other sort of gift (something with much thought and work, not simply expensive).
But then we spoke and he explained rather sweetly.
He also showed a bit of emotion today in a text, and now I‘m glad again that he moved and I won’t see him for a while, because the ground seemed a bit slippery (especially since I had a glass of wine just now).
Do you think your LO is also a bit differently wired in terms of social interaction etc? Not going as far as neurodivergent maybe, but it sounds a bit like it with the way of demanding work to be done etc. He reminds me of someone I know, just cannot recall who…
Lim-a-Rant,
„ let’s embrace the spontaneous humour of that Freudian slip (which I reckon we have nearly all made and the lucky ones pressed delete on!)“
Actually I think, it was autocorrect, I must have written „LO“here so many times that my phone recognizes the word 🙈
Wow, calling your dog LOs name is really something 😂did your SO comment on it?
Hi all,
I wanted to reply to LaR’s question/comment
“A point I find interesting is that we all need to find a story about reciprocation, or not, to begin getting comfortable with the “it really doesn’t matter” part for the long haul. Mila and Bewitched from what I can tell have erred towards that there probably was a degree of reciprocation, Snow and ABCD I am not sure about, and I am coming down on the side that there probably wasn’t and my brain invented it. Not saying any of these is better than any other, but we all seem to need to pin our colours to the mast on one of them to start pushing on. ”
I think pinning colours to the mast could be seen as a deliberate attempt to shut down rumination, accept we will never know the truth and be happy to leave well enough alone. It’s strange because, ironically, this detachment probably helps to see reality of where we were at with LO. Like, I can look back at the evidence now with new eyes and am convinced that there was something there but, hey. It doesn’t matter anyway. Limerence is like a fomo on steroids. “I simply must have what I am not allowed to have.”
@Mila neurodiverse, definitely, all the signs and I know them well. Impulse control being one. I experienced that myself with him. But nowadays I see a lot of that all around me (amateur diagnoses by me!). It’s making me a nicer person because, these days, when I come across someone whose social skills are slightly different and maybe a bit abrupt or rude (?), I just assume that’s what’s going on and give them a free pass 😅
Hi Bewitched,
I know what you mean, since I realized LO might be neurodivergent, I can see it in other people too. He is still the best example in my knowledge.
I sway a bit between excusing his behavior by it and not putting up with it. I mean, it might be explained by his neurodivergence, but I still have and should have my basic standards and boundaries.
Your LO is in another way divergent than mine, I think, but somehow I recognize the type!
Bewitched,
Before having more time to organize my mind to answer your challenging questions, let me post this poem; you’d know where I’m heading —
*****
The Force That Through The Green Fuse Drives
The Flower
Dylan Thomas
The force that through the green fuse
drives the flower
Drives my green age; that blasts the roots of trees
Is my destroyer.
And I am dumb to tell the crooked rose
My youth is bent by the same wintry fever.
The force that drives the water through the rocks
Drives my red blood; that dries the mouthing streams Turns mine to wax.
And I am dumb to mouth unto my veins
How at the mountain spring the same mouth sucks.
The hand that whirls the water in the pool
Stirs the quicksand; that ropes the blowing wind
Hauls my shroud sail.
And I am dumb to tell the hanging man
How of my clay is made the hangman’s lime.
The lips of time leech to the fountain head;
Love drips and gathers, but the fallen blood
Shall calm her sores.
And I am dumb to tell a weather’s wind
How time has ticked a heaven round the stars.
And I am dumb to tell the lover’s tomb
How at my sheet goes the same crooked worm.
Hi Bewitched: to continue —
“I think creativity is very important to you and you have said that many times. But is this a coping strategy or more an active wish and desire even when very inwardly happy and content?”
You’re asking an astronomical question to creators of all sizes and kinds — egg first or hen first? Like in animated objects, humans all have measurable/limited energy manifested in physical (sporty, sexual), mental (intellectual and creative), and emotional (romantic, friendly, familial) activities; which inspires, invigorates others or each other?
I believe there is Apollo/Muses/Phantoms inside each of us, but either unrecognized or sleeping. As artists of life, they both sing joys and lament sorrows of individual lives. They exist independently from LOs/LEs, who definitely, and in most situations, can wake Muses/Phantoms up!
Like sex, emotional, attachment drives (Fisher) — the system-libido energy (Jung calls it) , creativity is an innate life (libido) “force that through the green fuse drives the flower, drives my green age; that blasts the roots of trees…. that drives the water through the rocks, drives my red blood…”. Creativity is driven especially when other drives can NOT be consumed/satistfied. Why great masterpieces come out of greatest emotional pains? Did Berlioz compose any memorable pieces after he married his beloved LO-Muse — Harriet⁉️ Do we remember Goether’s other music pieces beside “The Sorrow of Young Werther” ⁉️or Dante’s “Inferno”? They had their unreciprocated LO-Muses while creating their masterpieces!
To answer your question, creativity is “comping strategy” to treat (my) depression; but the process itself organically energies one’s drives/system-libido, uplifts spirit and opens mind for one to look/focus on bright sides of the world; when the body energy is stuck/depressed, one’s eyes could not help but only stare at some dark sides (particularly in LEs).
“Through art alone are we able to emerge from ourselves.” — Proust
Personally, I need a certain amount of longing (not acute), and others’ poetic Muses to wake/stimulate my Phantom especially right after waking up in the morning. When feeling “very happy and content inwardly” (energy is circulated and consumed through other channels), the Phantom is tired or just contently lazy lying on a coach! Muses/Phantoms require ample, spiked, libido-energy FLOW. Responding your (collective) posts in the morning has always served as my mental wakeup calls 🫂
“I have realised that while I need time to ‘stand and stare’ at beautiful things, I also I need other people in my life as they make me happy.”
As I mentioned before, since my childhood, I desired a bosom sibling/friend, even just one would be enough. However, we all know how impossible it could be independent from one’s libido-energy flow. I have a long-distance, older limerent-friend (was once his LO) with whom I could talk/confide in person or on phone, he knows about ET and DrL’s work. After limerented one after another, he’s happily married for the 3rd time, so I rarely bother his busy time. Our friendship is solid, but he could NOT help take away my LE “pains” in the past year.
Being with good friends or engaging in teaching definitely makes me “content/happy”, but the gratification doesn’t sink deep, since almost no substantial conversations are involved. Nowadays, everyone is busy with their family, SO, or online apps. Few people, like us ghosts here, are investing time to discuss and debate life issues that are vitally and personally important. So I appreciate you ghosts more, because your mind spin mine, which help battle my perpetual low-grade depression — accepted as one of my biological system defaults.
“Maybe the way I will live my best life post-limerence is to crowd-source that joy and be as open to human contact as possible, whether that is just in my everyday life, with nice strangers, in real life or on the internet (mwah!)”
That’s what I’m trying to do. With my ease nowadays, more strangers (more women) approach/talk with me, and give me smiles in the train after I just casually throw a caring look at them, which in return made me happy. 😊
“Happiness is beneficial for the body, but it is grief that develops the powers of the mind.” — Proust
Typo: “Do we remember Goethe’s other literary works beside…”
Not “comping strategy”, but “coping strategy” (for my depression, not for the residual LE that still inspires through imagination… )
But creativity as a “comping strategy” sounds suitable here — an Improvising Slip…
By the way, I had a tiny bit of creative works in the past happy/content time (during marriage), they are mediocre in terms of involved emotional intensity, although I got monetary prizes for them.
@Biwiteched,
The system-libido energy (by Jung’s definition), or “life force” in Star Wars — is called “Qi/Chi” in the East/COO. It was given to each of us (and all sentient beings) by birth (in varied degrees based on inherited DNA), strengthened by healthy living, and leaves us only in death. While holding his paws, I felt my dog’s warm Qi very slowly leaving his body.
In order to be healthy overall and feel happy, one’s Qi has to circulate well through all sorts of activities, be it physical, mental, emotional, creative, or social. When Qi is stuck somewhere in one’s body, one either becomes physically ill of feels sad, angry, despondent, and depressed, etc.
By experience, I know dopamine moves Qi and Qi moves dopamine. Among many types of activities, I found romantic/imaginative, creative, intellectual, physical, spiritual (meditation) activities move my Qi efficiently….
Again, creativity is not just a “coping strategy” for LE or depression, but it pushes Qi, and brings in dopamine in one’s brain (of course, not as strong/much as cocaine or LE). The reality was not changed a bit, but I did not feel anything despondent about it; Agape could also be filled within without any causes from without….
@Mila,
The dog thing was a really cringe moment. SO didn’t say anything, but she heard it alright. I had looked at my phone about 30 seconds before it and seen a text from LO – so I was all set to blame that. Probably wouldn’t have washed though.
I have a question. You say your relationship with your LO has been heavily text based – does your SO know about these texts? (I won’t judge, whatever the answer – just interested).
@Bewitched,
I think it is ‘nail your colours to some mast’ rather than there being any particular mast that’s better or in common between us. If I went for the mast where there was reciprocation, I think it would just give new oxygen to my LE. It was once I began to believe there wasn’t, that I started to be able to get more distance and perspective. The long term friendship at the heart of it just throws in added uncertainty.
Hi Lim-a-Rant,
SO knows about the texting, or I never hid it, but I’m not sure if he knows how much it is/was. But I think I could even tell that to him.
My SO is/was wary about it, but he knows LO and his odd ways. Back in the past when there was no limerence in sight and we were simply friends, my SO said he was a bit suspicious about this friendship, but back then I could tell him honestly that there was absolutely nothing sinister about it.
I felt often in the last year that SO got a bit wary again, but didn’t say anything. I think he just thinks that my LO has a crush on me, but he also knows that I’m sometimes annoyed by LOs behavior etc. , and I guess he feels that he‘s no real competition and that I would never stray.
Currently enduring my third LE in as many years. They keep getting worse – each involvement has been more intense, and yes, at this point I do feel it’s a serious mental health challenge.
I have come to feel I need to end my primary relationship (I am in a relationship of 18 years) because I have zero control over these recurring episodes and don’t see them stopping…Despite how much “work” I do on myself, to try and understand this, it does seem there will be a 4th…a 5th. I cannot deny, I want to find that fire.
At this point, it’s not about stopping…In compromise I feel I want to have the agency, if I do find that fire, to have my heart smashed without having to hide that it’s happening. That is the most exhausting and awful part of it. Even worse than the unrequited aspect — the fact I cannot even transfer, is that it’s all so secretive, so private. Reeling from heartache as you eat dinner across from a spouse who has no idea you’re dying inside is terrible.
I am 49. My longterm partner (59) simply doesn’t evoke these feelings of excitement in me. I’m confused, sad and scared. Exhausted. Numb.
My current LO is 29. I do feel there’s some interest there, but, it’s not a true possibility, for whatever reason. Or, maybe he’s just a charmer and I am mistaken. He offers just enough to get me imagining there might be a possibility. Meanwhile, my job is suffering, my mental health is in freefall…
I am exhausted and heartbroken. I am tired of myself. And pining away…
When I see him, I’m on a high for about 3 days. Then, I crash if I don’t see him again. It is literally like a drug. It takes 3 days.
I feel awful that I am in this situation. Awful that somehow, my life brought me here. Other people I know do not suffer from this. Why do I? I feel…cursed. Helpless. I have tried all the stuff, hobbies, etc…What happened to me, when I was young, that made me this way?
I have found help here before (and hopefully did some helping in return). I remember this community was very supportive and full of intelligent, warm, humans. So, I will say, I’m sorry for taking your time now. I guess I want to feel, somehow, as they say…”seen” (ugh) as I go through this dark tunnel.
I suppose I have to go NC. Even though part of me feels there *might* be hope, and wants to reach for that ridiculous pie in the sky, white whale, whatever it is. I genuinely like my LO and don’t want to hurt him, by withdrawing my friendship, but I think it’s come to that. I will miss him…that too, is sad.
After I go NC, I need to take the time in clarity to free myself from my relationship.
It’s so hard. And I am a repeat user. What a mess. But I want to be free to use out in the open. Fail at finding love and passion, out in the open.
Hi CSC,
I‘m so sorry to hear what you are going through. I remember the hell of this down phase of an LE. It might be the point where you cannot get any deeper down and can slowly crawl up again, and gain some insights into the why or how to get out, or just really understand the necessity of getting out of limerence.
I‘m not sure if this is the right time to decide about your relationship, though. You might feel some truths right now, but maybe not the right time for action- you cannot take it anymore so you want to do something, anything, but for a decision like that you need more of a calm mind and, as you say yourself, clarity.
Don’t abuse yourself by saying it’s ridiculous or sad. It’s a real pain you are going through. I had it and I don’t know about you, but me, I felt deep down that it was in no relation to what was really happening , that it must be some wound inside of me and not my LO who hurt me that much.
I think you are actually at a crucial stage now- you see that you cannot go on like that. It’s somehow better than limbo.
Maybe the pain will change something in your resolve.
In my current LE I finally get this stop sign of „no, I don’t want that anymore“and I’m so tired of the whole mess that my mind really shuts it down.
Take your time to heal a bit, don’t do anything rash. Think about if your spouse could tolerate/help if you told him? Or some neutral person to talk about this to?
I wish you good luck and all the best! Hope the pain is better today.
Hi Mila,
Thank you for your caring and compassionate reply. It is so hard to think of anyone else having to endure this kind of heartache…and I am so sorry you have. I have been in this pain, on and off, for several months…it’s disorienting, and draining, too. I’m sorry you know how that feels.
Yes, I do feel I need a calmer mind. It is going to be so hard to go NC and know there is nothing else in my life that gives me that high. It’s almost like, where “me” should be is some kind of hole. I question whether I ever really had a Self.
It is true that in my life, for various reasons, I have put my Self aside. Folded it up like a piece of unworn clothing, and tucked it away. I think that may be why, now, limerence is recurring…and at some point, I do think I will need to leave my SO. That thought has been shadowing me for many years.
How did you get that stop sign, in your own LE? Did your LO come right out and tell you, or, did you just wake up and think “I can’t do this anymore” ? Something else?
I cannot tell my spouse. It would crush him. But, I am going to look at some other things I can do to try and untangle the knot I’m tied in. Sadly, I think going NC (even though I have no other source of Joy in my life rn…yikes) may be the only first step to take.
Thank you, again, for your kind words, time and wisdom.
„How did you get that stop sign, in your own LE? Did your LO come right out and tell you, or, did you just wake up and think “I can’t do this anymore” ? Something else?“
It’s my third LE since I‘m married, and while limerence gave me great feelings of elation and being alive, it also had these very painful phases, and they got more and more the longer the LE continued.
This LE was/is for a good friend of mine who moved away. He reciprocated in a way, but there was no disclosure. He wanted very frequent contact and texting and for me that was very painful without disclosure or any meaningful communication.
I finally had to acknowledge that there will never be more than this tantalizing frequent texting without really talking about feelings or anything. This and the accumulated experience of past LEs led to a feeling of having had enough, a need to protect myself against the recurring painful moments- I was just sick and fed up by this ruminating over texts, waiting for texts etc.
I have to say that I struggle a bit at the moment after unexpected warm signs of LO with following coldness.
But now I know I’ll get out of that too. It’s an inner determination not to let myself go down into this absolutely futile and wasteful hell of pining again, I’ve got a life to live.
But it needed countless trips down through rumination hell to get finally to the point of having had enough.
I‘m afraid I don’t have another recipe at the moment.
But my situation is different in that I never doubted that I chose the right SO, I love him very much and never thought of leaving him.
So maybe in your case limerence might even be helpful in getting a painful shove to change something, or to find out what your Self really wants?
I wish you good luck! Don’t give up, it might be a turning point in your life if you manage to sort it?
Oh my gosh, Mila…
I feel our situations are very, very similar. I too have a hot/cold LO, and when he’s warm…he’s so warm…and I am on a high like I cannot believe…but when he’s cold, then disappears completely, it is agony.
And like you, this is my 3rd LE (I’ve always had them, but there was a BIG gap since my others).
Thank you so much for illuminating your breaking point for me. It is hugely inspiring. I do feel a sense, inside myself, that I am tired of all of this, right now. I am tired of running ragged over my charming yet unreliable LO. I really like him as a person. I’d love it if I could be in his life. But, let’s admit it, he will survive whether I am there lovingly helping him, or not.
Yes, our SO’s sound pretty different. I have had doubts, on and off, for many years. But, it’s not so much that I’m with the wrong SO. It’s more that I think, somewhere, I bought into the idea that one needs an SO….I think if I had stopped to understand that a woman can exist without one, I would never have gotten involved to this degree, with anyone, at all. Because I love my independence….I think I was just too ignorant, or too scared, to say “I really can be alone, and be ok”.
But, I am very, very glad, in your case, to hear that your SO is someone you cherish. That is wonderful — and they are lucky to have you, a thoughtful, caring and considerate (even if limerent) partner.
Hi CSC,
well, „charming but unreliable“ is the complete opposite to my slightly neurodivergent LO;), he‘s very reliable but not charming in the usual way.
Being tired and fed up by being mangled by futile „what if‘s“ and the final understanding that there’s no „what if“ that will ever happen was very important for me.
I just think everyone has probably an individual way to get to that stage.
It really sounds as if your relationship is in a dead end from your side? Is there really no glimmer of hope left for it?
Hi Mila,
Yes, I understand that feeling of “look, there is no hope for this!”…and desperately want to reach that phase.
I am not there, yet. I can feel I am still hoping there might be something there. Even though, most of the signs are that it’s utterly pointless. I am hanging onto a shred of hope. Turning it over and over in my mind…it’s so frustrating to be stuck on this, like I am.
I’m really glad you were able to reach that realization… Was it painful when you did? Or more of a weight lifted? I am hoping I too can see that, in a little while, with my own situation. When your feelings began to switch, did you feel taken for granted? Or, were you just tired of feeling like a friend? Did you start to feel…kind of foolish? Or, ? I’m so curious. I hear you when you say he was paying attention to you, but never really getting closer. And that can be horribly confusing.
I can feel that I’m getting slightly, very slightly, tired of my LO and his strange, conflicting signals. And I am tired of parsing, parsing, parsing…it’s like I go into parse mode when I start getting tired or bored…
I don’t think my LO is playing an intentional game with me, in some ways, I have to wonder if he is also a limerent, because he is almost acting like it.
But…it could all be in my head, and he is just “not that into me”. I sincerely believe that if he were, it would be absolutely impossible to ignore. I have always read that if a guy really likes you…he truly cannot stay away. Look at me..parse parse parse.
I await the day when I know “This is utterly hopeless!” haha
„ Was it painful when you did? Or more of a weight lifted?“
In this LE, it was really like an overfed, tired feeling, a dull feeling of futility. Not very pleasant. But in every LE (also this one) I had moments of clarity where I felt how happy and easy life could be without the limerence, the feeling of a weight lifted. That was usually coupled to a moment where I saw clear how LO didn’t care, maybe with anger involved, and I can remember being surprised at this very positive feeling of finally being free in the midst of disappointment and anger.
„When your feelings began to switch, did you feel taken for granted? Or, were you just tired of feeling like a friend? Did you start to feel…kind of foolish?“
Yes to all, actually, in different stages. I particularly reacted to be taken for granted. But that’s a stage where I still felt entitled to more emotion, which is a sign of limerence. I‘m entitled to nothing, actually. He can care as much or little as he wants,unfortunately. And I got to a stage where I accept that because it’s not that life-defining for me anymore.
This parsing you do (had to google the word!) , it’s the worst, I did it all the time, and that’s what you should try to stop! Could it be that your mind seeks to be occupied by it so that it doesn’t have to deal with other stuff?
It’s no use, I tell you. You really cannot know if he’s limerent or not, you simply cannot. As I see with my LO, people behave very differently in acting out their emotions, and there’s no „men act like this and women like this“ as an universal rule, in my experience.
Hi Mila,
Thank you for illuminating your experience, and answering my questions!
Your insights really hit home with me. Knowing my feeling of “getting kinda tired of this…” Is something you’ve experienced too (and not a figment of my neurochemical-soaked limerent mind) helps greatly. I’ll take it as organic progress, because the “Tired of this” voice in my mind just kinda popped up, I did not will it. It was like “Girl, you’re a wreck, so….here I am. My name is Tired of This.”
With “Tired of This” newly by my side, I did see my LO this morning. I spent about an hour with him, chatting. I usually see him when I’m exercising, and we spend time together while we are both working out.
I went up and said hello (just so I wouldn’t be totally ignoring him), and he asked me to stay….ugh. I did. I shouldn’t have, but I did. As we chatted, he told me something interesting, very telling, I think: He had recently borrowed a friend’s membership card to another gym, one he didn’t have a membership to, and even though the girl at the desk figured out he was not a member, he convinced her to let him in. And this is where it gets weird….It worked so well he decided to go back again the next day, and do the same thing. Now, to me, a normal person would hope that the same girl would NOT be there, so they could pull the same move, on someone new, since it worked before. But what he told me was…verbatim: “I hoped she would be there again so she would let me in.”
There it is.
To be honest, today, even before he told me all this, I found myself thinking “You are very, very hot, but you are actually not that sophisticated, mentally. I think I’ve been giving you too much credit.” But…AFTER this story, I am starting to see that what I took for some kind of advanced Stoicism, or highly-attuned mature and self-aware assertiveness, may be…actually…just immature, junior-level, game playing at other people’s expense.
While I do think my LO has moments where he understands the value I offer in his life, I think, actually, most of the time, he is likely using me…in a parallel but more involved way he used the girl at the gym desk. It may not be malicious, but, it’s still using someone, getting something for himself, and asking the other person to stick their neck out.
To be honest, I have seen, and noted, this kind of behavior from him several times. It is couched in simple assertiveness. He asks for what he wants (something not many people do). He is persistent. And then, people just don’t want to say no. He’s not aggressive. But, he does put them in a position where it is, somehow, hard to say no. He wears them down. There have been times where he got something out of someone, then encouraged me to do the same. I could see the person was uncomfortable, so I said, that’s ok. I don’t want to cause you trouble….It’s like my LO has no concept that his actions might compromise someone else. Or, he just doesn’t give it any mind… He doesn’t do this with everyone. But, I’m seeing it’s a recurring theme.
I harbor no ill will towards him, I do accept responsibility for getting myself involved at all in this way. But, I’ll be damned if I’m going to be used or allow my boundaries to be stretched…or breached…by this person. It’s such a shame. He is probably relatively unaware that his tendency to play havoc with other people’s boundaries …is not a positive trait. (It is like a very charming way of forcing others to give him what he wants.) As a serious, caring, and decent person, I see why he does it, and how he does it, but I do not respect it.
I am not out of the woods yet. But, I will say, it feels a little satisfying to feel that maybe he is leaning more precariously off the pedestal I have placed him on. Maybe…maybe this is the beginning of knowing where I actually have a boundary. That has never been my strong suit. 🙂
Hearing how mindful you are of the emotions that are happening within you during the process of unentanglement has been really eye opening, and is helping me remember to pay attention to my own internal weather. Thanks to hearing you describe it, I have started, just started, to pay more attention to my own thoughts, and a bit less to the compulsive thoughts about LO.
Last night I actually had a compulsive thought about LO, got up to get something, and realized I had forgotten what I was ruminating about, completely. I would call that progress. Poof! Could not remember what I had been so absorbed by.
Later I remembered…I was fantasizing about what it would be like to be able to read the “Notes” on his phone. Gah.
CSC, Next, imagine what the Notes on his phone would say: “hottest gym chicks top 10”, “ways to save money (scamming chicks)”, etc… 😁
I’m glad to hear the wool has been pulled from your eyes at least a little!
I’m no stranger to obsessive thoughts. At the worst of it, with both LOs, they would be practically all I could concentrate on. With LO2 I even started snapping a rubber band on my wrist when he entered my mind – I was snapping a lot! But it worked and I didn’t have to do it for long.
Oh my gosh, Trifles. You are right! Ha!
While I don’t think he’s an out and out scammer, I do think he abuses the privilege of being extremely cute, having a killer smile, and being super charming. He uses those tools often…to get things from other people. He once told me about a chef he knew, who was gay, and thought he was cute — He would hang around this chef just for the very good, very free food….ugh…he is a repeat offender. This is a pattern with him.
I need to get away from him. Even tho admittedly, he’s the most fun thing in my life right now. Fun…but not worth all this turmoil. And I have zero desire to enable a user. Even one who is on the more benign side of the spectrum…
Luckily, while I have given him my time and energy, I have not been used in any other way. But, time and energy are the two biggest things we have. They are our lives! So, I definitely need to pull back giving both. Even if I end up bored out of my mind without the excitement of an LE.
CSC,
Your LO sounds like a classic Narcissist with the trait of “abusing” others with his looks! I’d run away as far as possible.
Did you say he’s 29 and you’re 49? (Sorry if I put someone else’s fact/hat on your head). What do you expect to get from him or your LE?
CSC,
You said something very nice about your SO — a “savor” in your countless xLEs , so are you grateful enough for his kindness, affection and simply the steady existence in your life? You consider to leave your marriage because he is not ‘exciting’ or not excitable, or some other irreconcilable factors in your marriage?
There is no need to answer me, just take some time and a quieter mind to think about themselves yourself.
Good lucks!
Sigh. Snow. Yes, you’re right on all counts. This is helpful. I can see, through your lines, what you are saying. I know! It’s utterly ridiculous.
Yes…..He is 29. While I am an attractive 49 and there is that huge age difference. (We were getting to know each other and I was open about my age. He looked surprised, but tried to hide it.)
I don’t know whether he’s a narcissist. He has some, but not all of those traits…. Maybe some is enough, though!
I will be honest here. What I wanted to get was magic, like one sees in the movies. I was going for the fantasy. I wanted to have my existence, accrued wisdom (and remaining beauty) attract a younger man. I definitely wanted the validation and fun of that physical interaction…
But, I didn’t want him in my life for an extended amount of time. I wanted…to have a beautiful and fun experience.
I thought “Hey, you only live once. Why not try to get him? It’s probably impossible, but you still have to try!”
Then, I turned that basic idea into 6 months of emotional ridiculousness, dishonesty around my SO, falling into an LE sinkhole, annnnd here I am. haha
TBH I would love to know if there is any comment, anywhere on here, where a younger man is completely and hopelessly limerent for an older woman. I sincerely doubt there is.
CSC,
I don’t remember any older woman/younger man posters outside the range of ages that would make anyone look twice at them.
The largest age gap I remember was a 70+ married woman who became limerent for a 20-something tour guide she met on vacation.
CSC
One of the most crippling parts of my past limerence was a young lady 10-15 years younger than me showing appreciation and listening to me. “Adam you’ve been married for 23 years you would know” would be her preface to asking me relationship advice. Her finding me physically attractive was zero on my meter. I loved her attention. The irony of a woman asking for relationship advice from a man spiraling down the abyss of infatuation is nothing short of selfish. Her letting me into her life and meeting and getting to know her daughter was the final nail on the cross. As my dear wife of now 25 years would say “you can’t save them all.” Can I try?
CSC,
I’m linking a few posts about Narcissism I posted a while ago in another blog, which might help you see more clearly what your LO possibly is and whether you want to keep chasing him —
1. https://livingwithlimerence.com/signs-your-partner-doesnt-respect-you/#comment-52871
2. https://livingwithlimerence.com/signs-your-partner-doesnt-respect-you/#comment-53375
3. https://livingwithlimerence.com/signs-your-partner-doesnt-respect-you/#comment-53377
*****
A successful case with a younger man in LE for an 24 yrs older woman — French President, Macron. But he was 16 while in LE, and she was his teacher (also married). Perhaps you still have a chance for magic, if you are able to stay detached from LE, while understandably pursuing fun physical interactions with younger men…
CSC,
You seem to have completed the fastest ever example of deprogramming / devaluing your LO 🏅I mean this in a good way. Your posts are like watching usual LwL on x64 speed!
In real life I am friends with a woman, early 40s at the time, who dated a man exactly half her age (connected through a running club so some similarities to your LE) for 3 or so years. She was the same age as his mother. If there was limerence involved I’d say it was more her for him. He broke it off. But I found that an unusual coupling.
My LO is almost the same age as me, and I would observe at LwL that this puts me in a minority of the men. Often the female LOs are 10-15 years younger or more.
Hi CSC,
you probably start to see him as the person he is instead of this special shiny perfect being. Me, I veered a bit too much to the other side, because it’s much easier to go to extremes and think he‘s all bad and not worth it all. While devaluing is helpful at some stage, I think the real sign of being free is seeing LO as a normal person with flaws and good sides.
But it’s very good to recognize the less likeable traits and to see what you would put up with and what not.
Someone asked the age question here- my LOs were all younger than me, 7-even 14 years, but they all reciprocated some way or other, one with disclosure.
I think the reason why many people here are around 40+- is not necessarily because that’s the age where limerence occurs most (although that’s also probable), but maybe also because that’s an age where most of us have a family and feelings of guilt, and we tend to examine ourselves more, a 20something will maybe pass it off as a heavy crush and not search the internet etc.
I was hopelessly Limerent for LO #2, who is 7.5 years older than me. That may not sound like much, but she is a Boomer and I’m Gen X. She was born fairly early in the 60s, and I wasn’t even conceived until the 70s. That isn’t a scandalous age difference, but I do think it is significant. Part of my attraction to her was that she is an attractive, youthful and fun older woman. I’m not the only guy who has a cougar fantasy, but I’m only into older women if they are young looking and acting. I’m not into old ladies (but that isn’t so much about actual chronological age, but more about looks and attitude).
My glimmery friend is four years older than me. LO #1 is cute and about five years younger than me, but if I’m honest, she does look a bit older than she is. LO #3 is an interesting one. I thought she was younger than me, but she told me (rather cryptically) that I’m not older than her. I became limerent for her while I thought she was younger than me (and so did others), so no real cougar fantasy there. But now I find out she is a grandmother. Without saying too much, there are other things that make me think she might be a few years older than me. For some reason, I find that strangely appealing. This lady looks about 42, but she’s likely 55 or older. She is beautiful and so young looking. I’ve seen much younger guys hit on her. Part of the attraction for me in that might be the fact that she would be much less likely to reject me for being too old. I’ve also typically tended to attract older women throughout my adult life, probably because I was bald from a young age.
LO #2 is ~1.5 years older than I am. Age wasn’t a factor in our relationship.
There was an 8-9 age difference between my paternal grandparents. They were married for 60+ years until he died. Something worked for them.
I met my wife a week before her 23rd birthday. I had just turned 32. As we began to get serious, I began to question the viability of our possible future together. People can change a lot in different decades. She would change more between 20-30 than I would change between 30-40. Those changes diminish over time. I wondered if we could survive the transitions. I had serious reservations that a few years down the road, she’d wonder what she had given up by marrying as young as she did.
But, I asked myself if she was the woman that I wanted to come home to at night, wake up next to in the morning, and grow old with. The answer to all those questions was “Yes.” Those transitions weren’t always easy or smooth.
But, here we are 35 years later. In those 35 years, only one woman, LO #4, ever got into my head and she wasn’t even trying to. That revealed an uncorrected vulnerability left over from childhood.
Once that was identified and corrected, life got a whole lot better.
Thanks Lim-a-rant. I have been on here before. Usually, if I come on, one can be sure I’ve face-planted on rock bottom and will soon start trending upward.
Having support and compassion from intelligent people, feeling less alone, that is hugely helpful. Thank you.
I’m rebuilding my mental foundation. I need to live. I cannot linger in this LE much longer. I hate the way I have been feeling. So, it’s time for action.
I am a big believer in personal neural engineering. I engage in it when I am reeling from a truly difficult situation, and feeling utterly ineffective. I decide, I’m going to sit down, use my journal, have a few good conversations with myself, and figure out a way out of this, a way to look at it, a way to see it. I tell myself: Get out of your own way, and handle this.
I am listening to a lot of Stoic YouTubes. Like, a LOT. Weirdly, I like the ones that have the AI voiceover of a Sedate English Gentleman.
But the real secret sauce, I think, has been listening to a lot of “Sigma Female” YouTubes (Oddly enough, I also recommend any in Sedate English Gentleman voice for these.) They are cheesy, and based on “personality types” which I find a dubious, snake-oily concept, but the narration works and is bringing me back from the emotional fringe. 🙂
Hi CSC and welcome back,
I agree with Mila that it might not be a right time for any huge decision about your SO. But I just wanted to say I hear you in every bit of this that you said:
“Reeling from heartache as you eat dinner across from a spouse who has no idea you’re dying inside is terrible.”
I went through some horrendous bouts of this (often triggering a very concerned ‘are you OK??’ from my SO). Hiding it in plain sight like this is very hard. Of course, the knowing or sensing that something is wrong, but not what, must be agony for the spouse. But this is difficult also on the limerent’s side of the table, especially if they are battling to push the whole thing away but feeling like they’re failing to. It should improve with time and patience, and NC if you can go that road. You can then make a more definitive decision on your relationship, as you say. Good luck, and reach out to us if/when you need to!
Thank you, Lim-a-rant.
I’m very sorry to hear you are familiar with the dynamic of keeping that secret from your SO. It is so hard in so many ways.
I think you’re right. I must go NC. I really, really do not want to. I am not at the point of thinking “NC is going to be good for me!” I am still at the point of “Will NC draw LO closer to me…can I use NC to somehow lure him out and think I’m fantastic and mysterious?”…Sigh. If I’m honest with myself, even my NC is not aimed where it should be. But, I suppose NC is NC and ultimately, I will get some reward…be it a reunion with sanity or attention from LO (though I know enough to understand that is not what I should want.)
I suppose my real fear is being so alone, with no joy in my life. The idea of shutting off the one source of fun and joy is really upsetting. I do have a LOT of fun with my LO. He’s a really, really fun person. I do feel I am my true self around him, and it’s amazing to see that light another person up.
My SO is….not a fun person. He is thoughtful, and he is kind. But, not very fun. That’s not his fault. He is sedate and safe. He’s been a harbor for me, and I was very damaged when I arrived to him, he has helped me in many ways. But, he has not ever been responsive to my fun side, my silly, energetic side…even my goal-oriented side that loves growth and challenges…it doesn’t light him up. That’s not his fault. Mine for staying…being too afraid to go. Too afraid to hurt him.
….Yes, I think you’re right. First order of business ought to be a return to a more stable frame of mind, even if I’m not experiencing joy or feeling uplifted. Then…I must look at leaving as a real possiblity. I don’t think I can go on like this, LO, LE or not.
Have you gone NC? I am hoping if you have, it has worked. From your tone, you sound like you have come through. I hope so.
Hi CSC,
Thanks for the nice response.
My LE is complicated. I am through the worst by a few months but not out the other side fully – definitely ‘on the downslope’ though.
I level with so much of what you said. I think I am in a better place with my SO than you are, but I have been candid in various threads that my LE took root at a point when due to life circumstances the fun side of my relationship with her had diminished. We have been trying with some success (varied) to repair that. I have contended with the LE for nearly 18 months as a backdrop, and often as a malign influence by hijacking my brain (my thoughts more than my actions). I have not disclosed anything to SO though have probably leaked a fair bit. She has not challenged me directly.
I can’t go NC with LO, at the most logistical sense because of some work crossovers. I have focused on lowering the frequency and emotional level of contact with her. I have all but given up on caring if she reciprocates my feelings (the word that keeps coming up here is ‘futility’). That took real work.
The next bit is tricky because it goes against the main LwL philosophy of NC. My LO and I go back close to 11 years as friends. There has been a lot of debate with other posters here about whether it was a genuine friendship across that time, given I always had some “she’s cute” kind of feelings. But to me, the fact stands that we’ve been good friends for all that time and the LE arrived on top. I didn’t want it to beat our friendship.
So – as well as the other reason for not going NC, there is the second factor that I’m not really prepared to give up all the good of a friendship that long and beneficial. I knew that could exist from times before the LE. I am not prepared to disclose to her (futile, dangerous) or ghost without explanation (unfair). Purely selfishly I do want her in my life in some capacity even though I know for sure I won’t leave SO for her (even if the option was there, which I don’t know about. SO is well aware of who she is and her role in my life as a friend, minus the limerence part obviously.
So the only option this left for me was to try and navigate through it with LO still a presence in my life. Get rid of the limerence without getting rid of her, if you like. This is where I put the health warning on it that I wouldn’t advise anyone else to try this method – many here including DrL would say it is all but impossible. And I don’t yet know what the endgame of this choice is for me.
That said – I am looking back on 4 months of pretty uninterrupted progress with it. What has helped is:
1. Determindely paying attention to worse qualities in my LO that make me realise that not everything glitters
2. Working through a list of actions to lower contact very slowly and take it back to a level that causes me less turmoil and guilt
3. Spotting small signs that it isn’t reciprocated and making mental notes of these (painful in the moment) things to draw back on
4. Prioritising SO more – do not give LO time that should be given to SO
5. Less reverie / fantasy about how it could be with LO
6. Using this forum to vent it out and get support
For most limerents, looking for ‘friendship’ seems like a bargaining process of the brain tricking itself. Mine could be that too. I don’t know yet if NC will be the endpoint if and when it becomes possible. Doing the stuff in my list and ‘holding it’ in this state has not been easy and has taken a toll. There are times when I think despite everything else I would have forced myself into NC if I could.
I may need some of my reliable core of LwL confidantes to help me out here with what to say to you. You sound like you are pretty set that you will end up leaving SO (I have never felt that way). And when you say of your LO “I do feel I am my true self around him, and it’s amazing to see that light another person up”, I relate to that so much. It would hurt me to go NC with this man in your circumstances – it would probably prove too hard for me. But that doesn’t mean I’m right. I hope someone else will come in on this reply and help us untangle this in your case.
If you want to ask me anything else about my means of coping with it though, feel free.
CSC,
I want to add something to my last reply. When life has thrown me the opportunity for some NC, say just 2 or 3 weeks, I would have a horrible first few days but then a reunion with sanity day by day as the time period increased.
Maybe it would be worth you doing if only for that (despite all else). Could you do it without a disclosure?
CSC, I agree with Mila and LaR to try to resist making any big life decisions while in this state. It’s another thing if you felt your primary relationship was over already much before any LE’s. But still, this is not the point to make that decision.
While reading your post, I couldn’t help but think: you’re 49 and this is your third LE in three years. To me it sounds like perimenopause hormones. They get crazy for some of us… I would try to see a gynecologist to make some sense of them. Although I do know the “feeling alive” part of limerence is such that who would want to quench that! But the highs are always followed by the lows.
With me, perimenopausal and premenopausal hormones definitely play/played a role.
But what does that mean, exactly? Hormones steer our entire life, being, feelings. It’s not „it’s only the hormones“. It’s the hormones for sure, but they are not separate from our brain, heart, emotions, it’s all one mess;)
Hi Trifles,
Thank you for this. I hear what you’re saying. I will add that, from my perspective, I don’t think my hormones are causing the actual LE’s. But, it’s possible hormones/chemistry is exacerbating my feelings of depression and joylessness…making me more desperate, less stable, etc.
I have questioned my committed relationship for a long time. So, that is always there….outside of any hormonal things going on. And I’ve been very, very prone to limerence since I was young…I really can’t remember not being this way. I’ve had many relationships but never one where there was a mutual, reciprocal passion. It’s always been quite one-sided. Either me for them, or them for me…it’s a pattern. But now I’m older, and it’s harder.
Full disclosure – I’m very familliar with effects of peri and full meno – I’m a breast cancer survivor (Estrogen receptor positive) so was put into menopause overnight, medically, several years ago.
That being said, getting the big C will really make you question your life choices. And after Cancer, that is when my limerences began to surface again.
Thank you so much for taking the time to comment on my plight!
CSC, Thanks for clarifying and just wanted to put that out there, also for others who struggle with such frequency/strength of limerence at a certain age. I empathize with your 3 in 3, it sounds like there is something very powerful driving that!
For me my LEs coincided with times when my “biological clock” was especially active. That helps me understand the incredibly strong desires that LEs are.
I’ve also struggled with accepting that relationships lose their excitement (for lack of a better word) in about two years. And in my case I think I’ve actually sometimes hung on for too long – things have not gotten better. But as LN alludes to, there are millions of couples who stay in a relationship for other reasons despite no longer having any romantic feelings for their SO. But it’s up to us to decide how we want to live our lives. Do we need those romantic feelings and what are the ways to get them (open relationships, etc)? This has opened my eyes lately. As I say, just be prepared to accept and live with the consequences.
Trifles, so true.
Yes, the biological clock makes total sense…it’s crazy how powerful our biology can be, when it comes to being attracted to another person. I actually feel more intense attraction at this age, physically, than I’ve ever felt — so I understand that for sure. Even though I’m in induced menopause, I think my biological clock is still partially ticking…haha
Yes, there are so many reasons to stay in a relationship — many of which I have enjoyed with my current SO. But, there seems to be this unquenchable *thing* in me…that keeps raising it’s head.
It’s such a good question – do I need the romantic feelings. I believe that yes, right now, I do…but like a couple of other very kind commenters have reminded me…the thick of an LE is not the time to be doing anything drastic.
I’m going to focus, instead, on my work, and on my physical health…and on gaining stability. But then, I think I seriously need to revisit my relationship with SO…he does not deserve to be with a repeat offender….
Thank you for steering me into more sane territory. I appreciate you.
@CSC,
Just wanted to say hello and that I feel you on the dying inside factor. Although our situations differ and I currently have no SO, I know that from experience, my bad decisions, while in the throes of being infatuated with others, was never a good thing for my marriage. It killed any good love my Wife may have had for me and I felt her pulling away in the final years. At the time, I was selfish and didn’t care..
Consequently I have been divorced since 2011. Not necessarily due to limerence (which didn’t happen till mid 2022) but certain friendships with other Women did not help. I’m currently 53, single, in no real relationship and pretty bitter most days. My LE is a whole other ball of wax. I understand you about the roller coaster of emotions you have over LO. It is a very difficult place that causes us so much joy, then heartache, sadness and then pathetic misery.
I wish you luck and hope that you will get the help you need. This forum has always been a good place for me to vent and get support from others. Please come back whenever you need to.
Hi MJ,
Goodness, I am sorry for all you are going through. Try not to be bitter…but I understand why you might be. It’s all so difficult.
I understand what you’re saying, though. I do have similar patterns. I love men. I love friendships with men, I love their humor and way of looking at the world. I feel more like myself around them, less judged, less held to any standard. I feel more confident and comfortable around them, usually, because of this. They are simply more fun than women. And…this can get me in big trouble with my SO…even if it’s harmless….
This is why I am starting to think I just need to be free to use my drug in the open. I know it sounds crazy, but, I would give anything to be in your shoes, without my SO, to just dive into my limerence(s) and have my heart shattered, go through my hell, but not have to hide.
I know that doesn’t help you, though…and I am so sorry for your heartache. It’s awful, no matter what the circumstances are. I am so sorry, and I wonder…have you considered No Contact? Being bitter is so awful, and being sad and bitter is torture.
@CSC,
My LE is pretty much all NC at this point and has been for almost a year. My story is all over this forum but basically LO switched up her position location and she moved to a location next door to where her and I used to work. There are 3 separate buildings within our complex and the one we were at was put into temporary shutdown. (She just got out earlier in the year because she has good connections.) It’s a guess if we’ll ever go back. I moved to the main plant across the street, but it’s a few blocks away from hers. Sometimes I think she got out to get away from me, but maybe not. It doesn’t really matter. It was rough to be in the same place everyday, see her and never be able to connect. We never really officially met except for saying hi to each other now and then. She gave me killer eye contact which fueled my limerence to extreme. It caused so much uncertainty and anxiety and since I’d never felt anything like it before, it got the best of me.
It’s really all just a pathetic misunderstanding and I never acted when I should’ve. I doubt we would have been anything anyway because I know she has another guy CoWorker she hangs out with a lot. Pretty sure he is her SO but I can’t verify that. It really doesn’t matter. I’m not really jealous because I’d rather see her happy.
I do sometimes wish we had become at least friends though. Now we’re on different shifts and I get off at odd hours late at night, usually in early morning hours, so seeing her is very rare. Unless I wait in her parking lot for her to come in in the morning. I very rarely do that.
I’ve since met someone else at work who ironically is the same age as LO. (She’s 29). She’s really sweet and we’ve become good friends but she doesn’t want to date right now.
I’m trying not to become limerent in the meantime, because that roller coaster sucks and I never want to ride it again as long as I live. Sometimes she does make me a little anxious at times.. I think I’m able to maintain this friendship normally because there is way less uncertainty and I know what to expect at this point. It makes coming to work more enjoyable because I know she’ll be there and we can have fun txting and talking $#!+ about our jobs every night. I think she’s a lot of fun and I would love to see us work out but I’m not forcing anything ever. It’s all on her timing so I am being patient.. That is,, trying to be parient, is more like it..
Hi CSC,
I understand what you are going through. My marriage ended because my ex spouse read my secret diary, and couldn’t believe I was struggling with these limerent thoughts and feelings after all these years. I personally have forgiven myself, and with therapy, have come to believe limerence is a type of neurodivergence. I initially felt so guilty about having these strong feelings for other men — the ones that did actually say they wanted a relationship with me. As a devout Christian, I knew I couldn’t/wouldn’t, but the feelings were still there. It wasn’t until after my second LE that I learned what limerence was, and that for me it was cyclical. Meaning, it usually took me a total of two years to actually be in and out of an LE.
I know how it feels to have a spouse that doesn’t inspire passion or feelings like limerence. But I was content to be in a content long-term relationship for all the other reasons. I just hope you may reconsider things because if limerence is truly a type of brainwiring we can’t fix, is it really worth leaving a good marriage? We have three children, and I wanted to keep my vows — those were the main reasons I tried to work on my limerence in private. I also realized when it was my issue — not his — I didn’t want to burden him with my thoughts. I knew he wouldn’t be able to see my perspective. And I was right. Just some thoughts from a woman who’s marriage ended because of her (unacted on) limerence.
Wow, this is so interesting, LN. Thank you for sharing your story with me.
I understand what you are saying about your marriage. I am so sorry your privacy was breached. To me, a diary is sacred. I am sure that was awful for you…and you were probably taken by surprise. I’m so sorry for all of it. It sounds like it was a very, very hard road.
That is fascinating to think of limerence as a type of neurodivergence. The closest comparison I have considered is an addictive trait.
To me, it is a lot like an addiction….so, I have been doing a lot of reading about addiction, lately. Admittedly I know little about neurodivergence, but, a quick google search has yielded some interesting articles on links between neurodivergence and addiction. Well, I guess I know what I’ll be reading tonight.
As for if it’s worth leaving, I don’t know. But a little voice inside me says yes. I’m just trying to figure out if that little voice can be trusted…as a limerent, it’s very hard to know what inner voice one can trust, to be honest.
Please do NOT trust any inner voices during LE, if you are sure you’re in the middle of limerence!
If I were you, I’d take time to dig deeper why LE has been through all your life? Innate, neurodivergence, forgotten/unrecognized traumas, insecurity, boredom, fears, etc… and why was it always one-sided?
Good lucks!
Yes, it is a lot like addiction. But then it can spiral into a type of OCD with the intrusive thoughts that we can’t control. For me, marriage was the barrier that fueled it unfortunately. The only good thing is now that I am free to date, I don’t have the limerence. But now that I know that I am prone to it while married (usually by an attractive male who gushes over me with obvious interest and compliments), what I plan to do differently is tell my future spouse, “Hey, this guy keeps flirting with me and it’s giving me intrusive thoughts.” I know now that maybe in this light my future spouse can step in and help, whereas before I wouldn’t have known how to phrase my needs. And I would let my future spouse physically step in where necessary to protect me. But that’s just my future game plan 😉
Snowphoenix and LN – thank you for this reminder to take my little voices with a big, dumpster-sized grain of salt here…it’s hard, but you’re right. I will do so.
LN I understand that about a future spouse. Where I come down is a bit different. I would not want any long term, live-in person in my life, again. I am so prone to limerance…but also have such a roving eye…I don’t think I would ever put another person, or myself, through that dynamic.
If I leave my relationship, my thinking would be, at least a year with no new involvements, and then, whoever I was involved with would need to understand I need a lot of room to roam. And, they could not live with me, in my residence.
It’s interesting. I think, at heart, I am a romance addict. I really don’t love being in relationships…I love the thrill when they are new. The other stuff…that comes with time…is ok. But, I can get that from close friends… I have no idea where I got these tendencies, but…I’m coming to see they are constants in my life, no matter how many LTRs I’m in….
I’m so flipping angry at LO because I’m so hurt, and I know I don’t have the right to be. After months of NC he broke it and I fell back into my old patterns. Texting, social media, phone calls…it was all as strong as it had been before the NC.
Something big happened in LO life that I had been on the sidelines rooting to happen for him. We talked on the phone the weekend before it was announced (initiated by him)and he didn’t even mention it to me. I found out from a mutual acquaintance that he had apparently confided in. When I congratulated him on it he told me it had been in the works for awhile and he had only told mutual acquaintance. I admit I was hurt by that. I spent the last 2 years cheering him on, telling him how great he was, how he deserved something like this and nothing from him when it happens.
I made a promise to myself that if he ignored my birthday I was done for good. He’d never ignored my birthday before so it might have been a somewhat hollow promise to myself. But he sure as hell did this year, no phone call, no text, not even a generic social media like. To add insult to injury over the next several weeks after my birthday he took the time to post about his dogs birthday, wish mutual acquaintance’s dog a happy birthday, and wish a happy birthday to one of my really good friends.
True or not I took it as a pointed slight and a direct message to me that I hold little value to him. Especially after he had ignored some health issues I had earlier in the year. Most friends would check to see how you are but not him. We hurt our own feelings because we think we mean more to people than we actually do.
I took it as a sign and I’ve restarted NC , 2 months and counting. But I’m still so angry. I want to call him and blow this whole situation up. To finally confront this thing we’ve danced around for years. To yell at him that I don’t deserve to be treated this way. That’s the irrational madness talking. Truth is I will never say a word about all of this. I can’t even bring myself to block him on social media or block his number or delete his contact info. I hate myself for this.
Lost Girl,
that reminds me of me and my bouts of anger at my LO! The thing is, he most probably doesn’t intend any injury or negligence. And, to be blunt, you are unfortunately not entitled to anything. For him, these slights that you feel so strongly, most probably don’t exist, he didn’t mean them as slights. Of course it could also be that he noticed you going NC and just adjusted to your reticence by pulling back too, but that’s also his right to do.
I don’t think he forgot your birthday or didn’t tell you about his life event because he doesn’t care about you at all. He‘s maybe just not limerent, which means you are not all the time at the forefront of his mind, and he doesn’t know how important this is for you.
And, sadly, it’s his right and he cannot be blamed officially for anything.
But it could be a turning point for you and your pride- you are worth more than pining after someone to whom you don’t mean as much as he does to you!
If he wouldn’t be more than a casual friend, you wouldn’t even notice his forgetting your birthday, or notice but only shrug shoulders, and you would be happy for his success without counting whom he told about and whom not.
Me too, I got these angry spells and I‘m not proud to say I let my current 3rd LO feel it a bit from time to time. In my first LE I raged at my LO openly (this one was reciprocated), I‘m not proud of that either. In the second it was clear even to me that I had no right, so I was just very very sad and hurt which was worse, I have to say.
So I think while the anger is not fair on LOs, it might still be a necessary phase, at least for me or some, and maybe something good will come out of it for you too. Just restrain from taking it out on your LO too much, I‘d say. Take it and use it for your resolve not to let this guy have too much room in your life anymore. You are worth more than that!
„ We talked on the phone the weekend before it was announced (initiated by him)and he didn’t even mention it to me.“
That reminds me so much about my situation with my LO. He was supposed to be my best friend and I even told him how important it was to me that he told me as soon as he made a certain life-changing decision, and he didn’t.
Just to tell you that he still thinks he‘s my best friend and that he does care about me. We just seem to have different expectations of each other.It wasn’t meant as the slight it felt to me.
For me, it was kind of a turning point to see that he‘s not the kind of person I wished him to be, not the considerate and sensitive guy I fell limerent for, that he isn’t a person who deserves all the attention I was giving him back then, but that he couldn’t help being how he is and I couldn’t really blame him for being that way.
Don’t know if that helps you at all, I was just thrown back into the anger about this inconsiderate behavior and do feel with you.
I never could be angry at LO in the midst of my past LE. In fact other co-workers would tease me that I thought she could do no wrong. And I pretty much did. My idealization of her was thick. And so the “issues” between us in my limerence I always took as faults of mine. I was either inadequate or ignorant of what needed to be done to make it right.
So when she left the job 2 1/2 years ago, it was again, my fault. By then (she was single when starting the job) she was seeing a man. He apparently had everything I didn’t have because she was giving him more attention than me. Then part of the reason why she left is she was going to work for his company he owned. And that just pushed my self-esteem so far down the rabbit hole that I couldn’t find it again for a long time after.
As Mila mentioned, all of this is in our heads. Most people are quite ignorant of how we feel. The office teased me of having a crush on LO having no idea the severity of what was going on in my head. No one did, because even I didn’t. I just knew my brain was intrusively obsessing over this woman. How could she know if even I didn’t?
In those 2 1/2 years since she left, I have talked to her once on the phone about 2 months after she left the job and she was the one that initiated. She has since maintained NC whether that is a conscious effort or she’s just forgotten about me.
LG,
Yeah, you can’t trust an LO. The thing about LOs, whether they’re witting or unwitting, is you can decide to end things but they decide when it’s over. Things change for them and there they are [“Here You Come, Again” – Dolly Parton (1977) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x87Zx3XAIsI#ddg-play%5D.
And, they always seem to circle back when you’re most fragile. You go NC hoping to drift into the birthday/xmas card phase of a dead relationship until one year the cards stop coming. You may intellectually start to believe that your LO doesn’t have a place in your life but it’s not solid. You’re almost there and WHAM! They’re back and you think that maybe they do. Literature says it takes an average of 7 attempts for a woman to finally leave an abusive relationship. While most LEs aren’t abusive, they dynamics of leaving an LE may be similar.
As for hating yourself, it seems to come with the territory. Anger is one of the 5 stages of grief and often that anger is self-directed, especially if you’re LO is unwitting and not malicious and/or vindictive. Anger can be wonderfully motivating as long as its appropriately channeled and you don’t get stuck there. Nobody wants to be hurt but there’s that little something extra in knowing that you did a lot of it to yourself. Self-loathing may not apply to everybody trying to escape limerence but it applies to a lot of them.
LO #4 never did anything to intentionally knock me off the rails. She became complicit in the LE and provided me with the opportunity to knock myself off the rails and I took it. LOs have their own wants, needs, and motivations for doing what they do. They can be benign or malicious, conscious or unconscious. You don’t know why and sometimes, they don’t know. Limerence being what it is, trying to figure those out can drive rumination off the charts.
Crank this up and let it shake the windows.
“I Hate Myself For Loving You” – Joan Jett (1982)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x87Zx3XAIsI#ddg-play
Do be too hard on yourself.
Correct link to Joan Jett:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpNw7jYkbVc#ddg-play
Oh my gosh, Lost Girl…
You are not alone. I am going through something very similar. And I encourage you in your NC. Your LO is not a fit for your needs. And, wanting a person in your life who remembers your birthday is not a crazy thing to ask for. Keep those standards. You will meet someone one day who has no trouble remembering your special days…and celebrating them with relish.
Congratulations on your 2 months. Seriously, keep going. You are doing the right thing for yourself. It may not feel that way, but, you are fiercely protecting yourself. In time, that will feel real, and you will feel proud, not depleted, by what you have accomplished.
I am in the midst of an awful LE myself, and I must tell you, your 2 months of NC is very inspiring to read about –Even if it doesn’t feel that way to you! X
“While most LEs aren’t abusive, they dynamics of leaving an LE may be similar.”
There’s that terrible conflict of a nice person being a nice person and is the graciousness they show us an indication they want more? And I don’t know about others but I know that kept me firmly stuck in a limbo of sorts even after she left. It also swings back to that allusive “what did they want with me?” “What if” …. the gasoline on the already roaring fire.
The self-loathing and self-directed anger helped me take responsibility for my limerence. Yes it is a neurological altered state of mind but I am still responsible for my actions. No matter what. I’ve never liked the idea of devaluing LO. Many are completely oblivious or do not understand it is more than an innocent crush. So I’d rather hate myself than blame her. Let her move on and let me repair the damage I have done. If it is possible.
Hi Adam,
I’m pulling your leg: how is your drinking-reduction project going? Getting easier? Don’t you think LE is a much, much, much harder than all other chemical substance addiction to stop/rid off ?
I agree with you that LO, a kind or heartless one, is not ultimately to blame for our LE, the same with bottles themselves for our excessive drinking. Even facing “devilish” Narc LOs, the battle with LE still primarily lies inside of limerents. Blaming LO or SO or circumstance is just FUTILE to help cure our LE pains/aches and hopefully remove LE tendency/roots.
But I would not HATE myself for limerence, since it IS DNA, biologically related, just like we need to food, water, sleep, and air for survival. How does self-hating one’s DNA drives going to help? Don’t you think we should accept and live in peace with our follies more, as well as merits?
Snow
Well ever since over a month ago when I fell on my shoulder and popped my AC ligament out of my shoulder I have indeed learned the hard way and have been doing a bit better. Even if it just keeping my butt put and not trying to leave the house when I have no business doing it.
Limerence is quite difficult to break. I have given up all sugar multiple times for indefinite periods of time, stopped using snuff and finally stopped smoking. So has Momma too and she’s been smoking longer than I have been drinking. Limerence took me by surprise sure. But I think besides the random thought, I have gotten it at least under control if not past it.
“Don’t you think we should accept and live in peace with our follies more, as well as merits?”
Well that has almost all to due with vast majority of Americans being Christian. And Christianity is all about guilt. And I am not entirely sure my present experience with Christianity isn’t heading in the same direction as it did the first time. I think it’s that I feel like I am trying to be assimilated. Limerence was why I went back to church. But I don’t feel like it is really helping with it.
The things for the vast majority of the congregation, they are all friendly and helpful people. It’s kind of difficult to explain. But basically the goal of most any Christian sect is get people to repent and change their ways. The difference is every Christian congregation even within the same sect has differing view on what repentance is and how we need to change as a person to be in God’s grace. So sometimes it can feel like there is nothing I can do to get in God’s grace, at least listening to other humans.
And it doesn’t help that guilt still lingers for not being the son my parents wanted me to be; the good Christian son. Being the black sheep has cut me off to anything but a sterlie functioning relationship with them. My father called me last night for an update on my shoulder’s healing. It was just that. Straight talk. I couldn’t tell you the last time either myself or my father said anything affectionate to each other.
And I don’t say any of that about Christianity to sound bitter. I know that guilt is a difficult emotion for me to manage. You could almost say it is an addiction itself. By punishing myself for my “follies” I show that I realize I can’t live up to what someone expects of me and that I am sorry that I can’t.
Adam,
Venturing into the very dangerous subject of theology…
The doctrine is there is nothing you can do to get into God’s grace. Orthodox Christianity is predicated on the idea of Salvation by Grace through Faith.
At its core, Christianity is elegantly simple.
We’re not right with God. We can never become right with God by our own merit or action. So, God sent a vicarious atonement and did it for us. The Old Testament drives toward the coming of the Messiah. The Gospels establish Jesus as the Messiah. The New Testament explains the post-Messianic relationship to God.
All we have to do is believe it.
Theologically I understand what you are telling me. And (especially at a young age) with how many times I have read the Bible I agree that is what the Bible say as well.
I think my beef is how us imperfect human constructed organized Christianity. And so, as Jesus said “when two or more are gathered I will be there with you”. So is there a need for one central location where many gather in which only then will God hear our prayers?
Because of the religion I was raised, and it wasn’t voluntary, I had to go to church and Bible class because I lived in my parents home and that was the rules. I didn’t escape until I was 20 and moved out on my own. That has left a bad taste in my mouth regarding organized Christianity.
However, our pastor is very good at what he does. And I do feel that he has a genuine love for the congregation and the desire to save them by them accepting Jesus as their savior. And that is why I have kept going for a year now. I don’t doubt his noble intentions. But he’s only one man among many. Not to say that I have ever had someone in the congregation be malicious to me. But definitely some that are more conversion oriented.
Hey Adam,
You got some good advice there from LE on Christian doctrine. It does vary by ‘sect’. They can’t all be right. So pick the one you like best – my preference if I still believed myself, would be for the most forgiving version.
Like you, I was brought up on Christian guilt. Some of my earliest Christian doctrine lessons involved confessing my sins. Looking back on that experience, now that I am adult makes me reject it. I reject the idea that little children need to confess their sins. And that little children need to feel guilty for sinning all the time. Nah, that’s not for me and its turned me off for good. I say its possible to have a relationship with God without all the man-made rules (and they are *man* made, overwhelming male in evolution through the ages).
I am not really blaming people for insisting that things are done the way they were brought up on themselves, but we have to acknowledge that none of these sects anything know for sure, they’re interpreting and making it up as they go along / or just going along with tradition, in many cases. The truth is that none of us knows anything about God for sure. I would underline the ‘for sure’ bit here.
So yes, LE is right, it does come down to faith. Either you’ve got it or you don’t and that is all. And people can also change their mind in that regard. Faith doesn’t require more than faith, if I understand LE correctly. So leave the rest behind, if it helps you drop the needless, useless, unhelpful guilt. I have dropped the guilt and its great. I am not a sinner. I am just fine.
I do not mean to belittle anyone’s beliefs here. Each to their own, as long as its doing them some good. But belief system(s) don’t work for everyone and some of us are actually not convinced by all of the good people at church, either. Are they all good (really?).
I don’t really worry about everyone else in the Church. I figure they are there for the same reason I am. To get some sort of clarity for an issue they have, and how to maybe apply it to their own lives/situations. I do wish them the best.
I don’t really go to Mass to pray for my Brother or Sister there sitting next to me. Although Catholic guilt will tell me I should. This is probably a wrong mindset that I most likely should feel guilty about but I do not..
I pray for my needs, my Family and those in my circle. Sometimes I go and I’m in a place where I can’t even think straight myself for even 5 minutes. How then am I supposed to get what I need from God, if I have to pray for everyone else, who may infact have it going way better than me anyway? Will I ever know? Do I even care?
Not really..
Perhaps they have it even worse. I will probably never know because I am more of an introvert. My Wife used to give me shit for not caring enough about my fellow Brethren. I would justify it by saying it’s not that I didn’t care. I don’t want to see anyone get run over by a Bus. But I have enough problems of my own. Everyone else is kinda secondary there when I make the sign of the cross.
This is probably the very reason I always refer to myself as a very Terrible Catholic and a horrible Christian.
MJ
The pastor said in his sermon this morning “The past is real but it doesn’t determine tomorrow” and that hit real hard. And all I could think of my past sins. Including limerence
Adam,
The past was real but gone!
It’s not here or now, which is what you have.
“The past is real but it doesn’t determine tomorrow”
@Adam,
I think it can and that’s not me saying anything against how limerence affected you and your marriage. Your Wife has obviously forgiven you, but you’re hard on yourself because you feel bad for sort-of betraying her. (Mostly in your head of course.) Your Son has issues about it too, from what I’ve read in your past posts. I say keep working on him. Never give up on him. He’s still young and has some growing up to do. (That’s what everyone keeps saying to me about my Daughter) It does sound like you all can and will recover from this. You’ve made some good strides here the past few months. (Minus the arm-sling)
True that what was done in the past, was actually done in the past and cannot be changed. However if you had actually, physically cheated on your Wife, how would that then determine her trust level with you now? It’s because you would have actually cheated on her in the past and that may determine what tomorrow could very well look like. A separation, divorce? How do you know?
A person that commits a sex crime, gets caught, convicted, sent to Prison and then gets out eventually has all sorts of challenges that may never be met. Because of their bad choice to commit a crime like that in the first place. Once they get out, they will probably have a hard time finding good work, a home, or a relationship. Be forever affected from the past.. Sex offender registries don’t help them out either. All because of what they did in the past, which most likely will affect their life now and what their tomorrows might look like.
Your Pastor is keeping things hopeful and promising and it isn’t a bad thing to preach about but it’s a message I get tired of because its so cliche and subjective. I understand fully why it hit you hard like it did. It’s like it’s a conflicting message thats supposed to magically sweep away the sins of the past and everybody just shut up, pick up and move on. I say if it’s that god**** easy, then why am I still so f*****g divorced? It’s because my past has affected my present and my past will affect my tomorrow. I made the bed, now I’m sleeping in it. I hate it.
This is some of the logic I try to write to LiS about when he makes his appearances back here now and then.
Yes, ask me about having a PA/EA and cheating on the Mrs.. The consequences of that. I’m living the consequence every new day, from that past. Which now directly affects the current and how from that same past, will affect how my tomorrow will probably go.
This website and these comments are a Godsend. Thank you all for sharing so much!
I am in the throes of an LE that’s so all-consuming that I’m barely functional outside of my fantasies and daydreams. I can easily understand why the judge behaved that way (I suppose we all can), and I finally understand the phrase I see so much on the internet about “getting ready to risk it all.”
This LE has been extremely slow to develop. In the year since we’ve been working together, I’ve really admired his intelligence, tenacity and drive. And then, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, in the last two weeks, I’ve fallen in love. I feel certain that this admiration is not mutual. And yet, the horrifying thought that he doesn’t find me pretty or particularly smart does nothing to relieve my feelings; instead, I feel them escalating all the time.
I cannot risk disclosure, although I wish I could. My LO is my main point of contact at a client organization, and I don’t know anything about his personal life. He’s very private. I don’t know if he’s married or in a relationship or if he’s gay, bi or straight. I know that I don’t know him. I feel sure he is not attracted to me. I’m gaslighting myself by re-remembering our conversations to have a different version of how he interacts with me in my mind vs. reality. During an LE, did anyone every feel sure of rejection if your feelings were disclosed? Did your LO ever reject you in any of your daydreams?
My mind, my heart, and my skin always feel on fire for him. I can’t focus or think deeply about anything other than him, and my work is suffering. I applied some of the tips I read in another blog post here. The best I can say is that I have a few good minutes.
I’m 36 years old and have been infatuated as an adult, but it was nothing like the way I’m feeling now. I didn’t know about limerence before Monday when I was searching desperately for why I was obsessed by thoughts of him. If I’d learned about limerence before, I might have even considered my previous infatuation as an LE. But everything that came before pales in comparison to how I feel now. I feel like I’ve been in a daze for the last two weeks and I am at a loss of what to do with myself now. I feel out of control. How long does this last?!!!
Bothered,
Sure of rejection? – No, I disclosed to LO#4 in hope of rejection. It’s the “nuclear option” in DrL’s blog, “How to Get Rid of Limerence.” It didn’t work at first. It made things worse.
Did LO #4 ever reject me in my daydreams? – No. I never actually met LO #4. We had a virtual relationship for over 5 years. She rejected me in my sleeping dreams. You can read about those in the Dreams blog.
How long did it last? – My last LE simmered for about 3 years. It boiled over for almost a year. I went 3 rounds with a therapist over a year and a half getting to the bottom of things. It took over 5 years after we said goodbye to feel at peace. I haven’t looked at her social media in nearly 3 years.
Everybody is different.
@Bothered,
My LE has lasted, going on about 2 and a half years. The worst of it being in the first year. My LO was just another pretty young Woman in the office where I worked, who was simply out of my league and then one day I decided to try and catch her eye. Thinking it would never happen and then when it did was the best surprise ever. All it took was a few stares back from her which caused the glimmer and then a smile and I was a full-on limerent. Head-over-heels, beside-myself, crazy infatuated-lovestruck fool.. I’m a 53 year old divorced male and LO is 29.
Cupid usually shoots silly little arrows, but I like to compare how this felt to feeling like Cupid was throwing a limerence meteorite at me. Something was just different how it felt when this happened. It was no ordinary crush. I started searching online for this condition and found this forum by means of watching a video on YouTube from Crappy Childhood Fairy and found a link to this place in the comments section. It’s a good thing. I’ve met so many wonderful people here who have given me tough love but also incredible support.
My story is all over this forum but my initial post can be found in the Limerence for a Co-Worker thread. LO basically rejected me when my LE went into limbo and then I fell into extreme depression. Having physical pains in my heart over her and even suicidal ideation at one point. I would say the worst of this depression lasted a year and I’ve been digging my way back to normal for what seems like forever. When LO and I worked in the same building, every day was like a roller coaster of emotions. We never even officially met each other because I was always like a deer-in-headlights around her. I lost all sense of reason and reality when she was around. It was awful. I needed whatever little breadcrumb she gave me and whenever she would look at me or I would pass by her. It was like crack to the dopamine high I would get from seeing her. No other Woman ever in my life affected me like this person has. I wouldn’t wish the way limerence feels for anyone. Most days I wish it had never happened. Yet I can’t deny the fact I would love to run into her again at some point. It feels like a sickness almost. A sickness I’ve learned to live with.
I’m nowhere near in the place I was but I highly recommend you do not disclose. There are plenty of others here in the forum who will agree it will not help you in the long run and being that this is for a Co-Worker, you have to be extra careful. You do not mention if you yourself have a SO at the moment but I feel like you have other reasons going on in your life that are causing you the intensity of what you are going through now. Perhaps start looking there and what stresses those issues are causing you. Since you probably can’t go full NC, you should definitely consider LC so that you don’t do something drastic that could cost you your job.
Limerence can cause an altered state of mind. Many of us have been there, so please continue to engage here as much as you need to. Someone will always be willing to help and to listen. This is a very non-judgemental and helpful place for you to be now.
Best wishes..
“During an LE, did anyone every feel sure of rejection if your feelings were disclosed?” ”
I wasn’t too afraid of rejection more so than that she would leave the job. I’m married, I’m much older than her, she is divorced, she has children of her own; there were a myriad of reasons I never had to fear rejection as she was just a very fun and energetic woman to work with. I was fine with the infatuation (I didn’t learn of limerence during my LE) and keep a friendly distance so as not to do or say anything inappropriate.
Did your LO ever reject you in any of your daydreams?”
I am not proud of early daydreams of her when I had first met her. I am ashamed to say she just seemed like a pretty face. The longer I worked with her though and got to know her my daydreams usually featured a shared friendship between us. I knew I was never going to blow up my life for her, even if she came on to me. Even when she started seeing another man I would daydream about her and her gentleman friend double dating with my wife and I. I was content to just keep her in my life.
I did have daydreams and fears that she would leave out of my life. And I was right. She left the job in June 3 2022. A very bittersweet day. But believe me it took my all to not beg her to stay. Not because I had any care for my own dignity, but because I knew if I truly did care about her that was unfair to her for me to be so selfish. So I think I managed her last day with grace. I haven’t seen or spoken to her since.
“How long does this last?!!!”
If you mean the actual LE, for me, it was two years. If you are talking about the aftermath then it would be longer. I spent six months, after she left, with intrusive thoughts and pining for her. I found this place in Jan 2023. That helped me at least have an answer and tools to try and work through it. But that still took time too. But this place has saved me a lot of time in rumination.
Thank you Limerent Emeritus, MJ and Adam, for your quick, kind and compassionate responses.
The most startling and alarming aspect of this LE has been the physical manifestation of symptoms. Heartache, disturbed and poor sleep (so unusual for me), and the sensation of feeling like I’m fire during my fantasies due to what I assume is anxiety (again, unusual for me). I woke up at 3 AM this morning and could not get back to sleep. I decided to work on a report due Monday that I could not focus on during this last week. But, within minutes of waking, all my thoughts were about LO. I thought about what he did last night and who he spent it with, and then I started to fantasize that all that time was spent with me. In my fantasies, I’m vivacious and the life of the party. In real life, I’m introverted and something of a wallflower.
I’ve been trying to impose order onto my mind. First, I think about who I am vs. the version of me that LO falls in love with in my fantasies. The comparison to who I actually am is lowering. I might be having fantasies of him rejecting me as a way of trying to bring my mind back to rights. It doesn’t work. I loop back to the highs of my fantasy world, some of which are pretty sensual.
MJ, you’re right about so many things. I cannot disclose. I love my job. As a Client, he could ask to be assigned someone else to work with, and this would be very harmful to me. I cannot go to NC, and for the rest of the year, we’ll have to be in frequent contact by email, virtual meetings, and even an in-person meeting sometime around November 18. I am already in ecstasy and panic, thinking about seeing him again in the flesh.
I’m shocked at how much his emails (entirely professional) mean to me. I look at my name in the salutation, picture him typing that out, and wonder if he feels the same way I do when I write his name. I have an unusual name that people often get wrong; he never did. He also pronounces it just right ever since we first met. I analyze his closings (he uses several) as I think I can gain insights into his mind, thoughts or feelings, depending on which he uses. I know that when I read emails to just me and those where many people are in copy, I use different tones in my mind. I fancy he’s softer with me in progress catch-up meetings when it’s just the two of us compared to meetings with our wider teams – I cannot tell if this is real. I wish I knew more about him.
I do not have an SO, and it’s been quite some time since my last serious relationship. MJ, I’ve been thinking about likely reasons for this LE and its intensity. I believe there are two. First, I am single and childless and hoped that my life would have been different by this age. Second, maybe more importantly, my father died 18 months ago. He was diagnosed with cancer at the end of January 2023, and by March 18 of that year, he was gone. I grieved immensely when he was diagnosed. I have a close-knit extended family, and they started coming to our house in February to spend time with my dad in his last days. When they arrived, I shut down. I was numb throughout his death, the funeral and more than a year that passed. If I’d let myself grieve, I’m afraid it would have overcome me. But, as it goes, I could not stay like that forever, and my unresolved grief has pushed itself to the surface again in the last six months. I am now trying to get through this too.
My father was my rock. He helped me believe in myself and move through an often unkind world. He loved me unconditionally in a way I know I’ll never have again. I met LO in person for the first time last year, about six months after Dad died. I don’t find any significant similarities between LO and my dad, except my dad was very intelligent and astute, and LO is intelligent and innovative. But how I coped (or didn’t cope) with grief and the intensity of this LE must be related. Trying to think about this and understand what’s happening to me is so painful.
Thank you all so much. I’m sorry you all went through LEs, painful as they are. It is comforting to know there are people out there who understand. Around the time of my dad’s death, I became estranged from my best friend, who is the only person I can imagine talking to about this.
@Bothered,
It sounds like you have the perfect cocktails to have become limerent. These symptoms are common among limerents. Yet every situation is also very different and unique.
In my situation, I think I fell for LO due to losing a SO I really liked a lot a few years ago. When that didn’t work out, I met another Lady, but she was married and then freaked out on me about my interest in her. I’d already been divorced since 2011 and had lost my Mother in 2018 due to Chrons. I have a Daughter who is now in College but she has never been shy about being very angsty about the divorce and telling me how she really feels. We’ve not had the greatest relationship either. To me it has always felt like the most important Women in my life keep leaving me, so is it any wonder limerence hit me like a train, going at 90mph?
Of course you’ve had life goals but life has thrown you a series of curveballs. I can tell from your story that your Father’s death is a big one and so you cling to the idea of a perfect Fatherly person who you feel can be almost like that for you. When in reality, he could end up being the exact opposite. A lot of what you’re thinking is fantasy. Especially if you do not know LO like you would know a good Friend. Once you start seeing him as a flawed human being again, limerence will begin to fade.
What you’re feeling now about your LO and getting all this dopamine and excitement from him is your brain trying to make you happy. Your LO probably has lot of physical features you are attracted to and so he has become this figment of perfection in your world. (The altered state of mind.) A lot of this is all in your head. He’s probably not thinking much at all about you as he types your name out in an email. He’s probably being simply professional but your limerent mind wants to believe it means something more and then you begin living for those breadcrumbs. It’s like a madness. I’ve been there.
Everytime LO and I made eye contact, I felt like I was staring into her soul or that she was trying to look into mine. I still swear to this day I saw eternity looking into her eyes. Eyes that were as blue and beautiful as the Pacific and neverending. I thought if she parked close to my car in the parking lot, she was sending me a sign that she wanted to be close to me. This is limerence insanity. None of it meant anything or really mattered. Deep down I know she probably couldn’t have cared less about me. (Yet once a limerent, always a limerent.) I still want to believe her eye contact meant something but it probably didn’t. I’ve always had a very vivid imagination so having that is helpful in ruminating over her when I feel a need.
Don’t feel bad for what you feel. Eventually you will begin coming down from off this high you’re on with him. I’m sorry that you lost a good Friend you could probably talk to about this issue. However, I hope one of our stand-out ladies here will find this and respond. They are very insightful and can give you a great Woman perspective that should help you out as well.
Thanks for writing back. Please keep us informed.
Hi Bothered,
Sorry to hear about your troubles. Limerence is a nightmare sometimes.
I can relate a bit – one LE 6-8 months after my dad died. I couldnt grieve at all, he was an alcoholic and we had a very emptionally distanced relationship. It lasted about 4 months, came out of the blue, and thankfully went almost as quickly. It was complete ‘closure’, i woke up one day and felt nothing. So hold on, hopefully it will stop soon!
I didnt know about limerence then, but im guessing the guide here will help.
I have had limerence before, and since had a relapse of a previous episode, connected i think to painful crises, e.g. midlife, early adulthood and some attachment issues that i guess came out of my relationship with my dad. A subset of the people here seem to be able to relate their limerence very closely to the specific trauma.
Sorry, just to be clear, my advice is dont disclose or do anything different to normal! Try to ride it out, focus on your other issues, and o/w follow Dr Ls guides.
MJ and Heebie Jeebies, thanks for your responses and for sharing your experiences. I suppose that my dad’s passing is a major factor in this LE. Today would have been his birthday if he was still alive. It was usually a very special day for our family, and I’ve been thinking about this date for months. Although I’ve known LO for about a year and admired the qualities that mean the world to me now, I didn’t start loving him and obsessing over him until just about two weeks ago. A small, still functioning part of my rational brain, is trying to tell the all of the rest of me that LO is just being professional and nothing has changed on his part. I don’t believe myself.
MJ, I read your response yesterday and spent a lot of time thinking about the impact of losing touch with my best friend. We used to talk or text almost every day. Last year, her birthday was the same day that my dad was discharged from the hospital as terminal. I texted her ‘Happy Birthday’ but did not call because of all that was happening; she just replied thanks. In about the month that passed between her birthday and my dad’s death, she never called or texted me. I did not reach out either. She knew my dad was sick but I didn’t tell her just how sick he was. I felt she was not there for me, and I did not think we could be friends anymore. I mentioned before that I’d had adult infatuations. I suppose they might have turned into limerence. But I’d told her (only her) about the feelings that were developing. She helped me see the situation through her eyes; both infatuations were married men. Although I still have friends, they are more superficial. I don’t have a confidant like I did with her and she did with me.
Since I’ve learned about limerence, I’m trying to appreciate that this ‘altered mental state’ is the reason I feel so out of control, so mad. However, understanding does not mean that my LE is diminishing. Instead, my thoughts are fixated on LO, he is uppermost in my mind and my fantasies are escalating. I’m seriously wondering how I’ll make it through.
Minor point to try and hold you accountable, you keep saying you are in love. That’s not really correct from what I understand, (but there are a lot of discussions about it here).
You are closer to an addict who got hooked without realizing it, and you need to understand your emotions in that sense, i.e. you have to work to control your cravings, reduce and then eliminate them.
Anyway, i think there is the emergency deprogramming course, have you tried that?
https://courses.livingwithlimerence.com/courses/emergency-deprogramming-course
Hi Bothered,
“I’m seriously wondering how I’ll make it through.”
I can’t tell if you mean make it through the LE or whether you’re alluding to something more serious. Please get professional help or just a pro to talk to if you feel suicidal. If it is not that serious, it is really about distracting yourself in the moment by doing something/anything. This can be anything from just getting up and making yourself a drink or food, to doing something more substantial like exercise or whatever else you enjoy. Some swear by the ‘snap the rubber band on your wrist every time you catch yourself thinking about LO’ method. Rinse and repeat many times, expect setbacks, but keep trying again. I am sorry if some of this sounds obvious. I think today and around now everything could be heightened for you even more by the anniversary of your Dad’s birthday. I hope it eases for you soon.
I am familiar with running my LO on rumination loops all day. It can and does improve with time and limited contact. I was having a walk today and realised I’d gone 90 minutes without her crossing my mind. I shouldn’t celebrate that, but I do. If 90 seconds feels more realistic than 90 minutes for now, start with that and work upwards.
I think Heebie Jeebies’ idea of DrL’s deprogramming course could be apt for you. Or, does the work situation rule disclosure out totally? I am not suggesting doing it now, as your mind is too fogged, but it is the uncertainty that is the fuel for limerence, and some here without an SO swear by disclosure as a way to end it quicker – the argument being that rejection may be painful but still better than indefinite uncertainty.
Remember – you haven’t committed any crime falling for this guy and having fantasies about him.