In the last post I made the case for limerence causing a collapse of self-discipline, which I termed “appetite supremacy”, and outlined some of the bad consequences that can follow. They are pretty bad, but there is another, related, consequence of this altered state of mind that can be equally destructive.
It’s another manifestation of the influence of limerence on strengthening “wanting” drives while simultaneously weakening executive control, which might be called limerence lunacy.
This is the phenomenon experienced in the middle of a limerence episode, when the limerent loses the ability to soundly process information and make sensible decisions. It isn’t the dark selfishness of knowingly indulging an addictive desire because you want a fix, it’s the scrambled thinking of someone drunk on ludicrous optimism.
A recent case in the UK provides a case study. It’s speculation on my part that limerence was a factor, but for those of us attuned to The Signs, I think they’re there.
One of the reasons it’s such an interesting case study for how limerence distorts your judgement, is because it involves a literal judge. Sir Marcus Smith.
A male High Court judge who expressed his love for a young female member of staff has received a reprimand for serious misconduct, the most serious sanction short of removal from office.
…the judge had passed a handwritten letter to a young woman member of staff, to whom he had previously confided and asked to go on walks with him, “referring to a number of personal matters and his feelings for her”. It stated that he loved the young woman and wanted to know her feelings in return.
Understandably, the woman involved – a junior co-worker – found this romantic overture distressing, and immediately requested that she no longer work with Sir Marcus. She also complained to the judicial conduct authorities, resulting in the reprimand. An open and shut case.
However, Sir Marcus apparently still doesn’t understand what he did wrong – or feigns not to. His defence was that:
…the letter was “a poorly framed attempt to reach out to her for support and to discuss his problems with her”.
By declaring his love for her.
The judge nominated to investigate Sir Marcus was unimpressed by this defence, concluding that:
Sir Marcus “had shown little insight into why his actions were so wrong. He had not acknowledged the romantic aspect of the letter, focussing instead on his own circumstances and feelings”.
Obviously, we are not privy to all the circumstances of the case, but one of the reasons that I suspect limerence lunacy had a role in this case is the utter madness of Sir Marcus’ decision-making.
In the current era, it’s preposterous to think that declaring your love for someone who works for you is OK, or that doing so wouldn’t come with massive repercussions. It just doesn’t seem credible that someone intelligent and experienced enough to rise to the very top of the UK judiciary could think he could get away with “chancing his arm” and seeing if he might be able to cajole (or railroad) a younger woman into a relationship.
Of course, predatory men in positions of power have been abusing that power for, well, forever, but this doesn’t seem to be a classic case. The Harvey Weinstein’s of the world tend to be more conniving – insinuating that a young woman might get some advantage by doing him favours, or engineering circumstances to be alone, or exploiting insecurity about “how business is done” to make her doubt her judgement. This guy just came straight out with a written note declaring his feelings for all the world to see, and asking if she reciprocated. A total, all-or-nothing, Hail Mary romantic pass, with the wildly naïve hope it might result in a relationship.
Sleazy predators don’t tend to write plaintive love notes. They are more Machiavellian. Predators are out for themselves, and wouldn’t jeopardise their status with something as guileless as leaving written evidence of their misconduct. They use strategic ambiguity.
To make the choice to declare your love to someone who is clearly not an appropriate match, over whom you have a duty of care, and who would make a self-evidently justified complaint about your conduct if it was unwelcome, you’d have to be pretty delusional about your chances.
And that’s where I see the signs of limerence lunacy.
It’s easy enough to conjure up a chain of “reasoning” that might make a limerent High Court judge decide to send that note.
- The time we spend together feels wonderful
- She’s so full of life
- I’ve never felt like this before
- She is wonderful and patient, and really seems to understand me when I talk about my problems
- I have to know how she feels, because this is the most golden opportunity I’ve ever had for bliss
- I’m only sharing my love, I’m not trying to pressure her into anything
- She can always say no, and I’ll be fine with that, I just want to know for sure
That’s the kind of fuzzy-headed, self-centred limerent thinking that could leave someone still focussing on their own feelings even after all the repercussions of putting a junior colleague in an impossibly uncomfortable position have landed.
Fundamentally, it’s the kind of thing you do when your objectivity is blown to smithereens by limerence, and the belief that if this feels special to you, it must be special, and therefore all those conventions designed to protect people against abuses of power don’t apply.
Outside the bubble of limerence lunacy, the actions are outrageous – the fact that the limerent is deluded enough to believe his intentions are pure is irrelevant, and no kind of defence against the damage that is done. Even when the bubble is burst by the reality of a professional reprimand, it only results in lost hope, wounded pride, and romantic confusion.
It’s this failure to process information soundly that I mean by limerence lunacy – losing the ability to step outside your emotional obsessions and see that you are acting like an irresponsible fool. The suspension of good judgement.
I’ll end by reasserting that I don’t know the details of the case, and Sir Marcus may not have suffered from limerence lunacy and is instead just a garden-variety creep. The abuser of power is an archetype, after all… but then so is the knight who destroys himself through the madness of lovesickness.
Although the harm done is similar, I’d argue that it’s important to be able to distinguish between the two motives when it comes to understanding causes, and designing protections.
Finally, of course, recognising the signs of limerence lunacy may also help to ensure that we don’t succumb to it ourselves.
Limerent Lunacy.
That’s a perfect term!
I appreciated this well -written post reminding me that Limerence cuts across all strata of humans including the most accomplished.
I myself have suffered from limerent lunacy and fired off cringe worthy love letters, and have, to my horror, received them as well (not from the recipients of my letters of course).
A friend once told me to never put ones romantic feelings down in writing until well into an established romantic relationship and I ignored her advice several times, to my humiliation. This seems typical for a limerent. I’m happy to say I’ve been limerence free for some time now but posts like this show me the ever present danger of letting down one’s guard and succumbing to limeernt lunacy.
Thank you!
Song of the Blog: “Something’s Wrong With Me” – Austen Roberts (1972)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni53lT8PmuI
“Sir Marcus “had shown little insight into why his actions were so wrong. He had not acknowledged the romantic aspect of the letter, focusing instead on his own circumstances and feelings”.
This is telling.
I spent a few years as the Quality Control Engineer in my section. I found that errors fell into 3 broad categories.
– People didn’t know the rules. This is a training deficiency and the right (emphasis on “right”) training will correct the problem.
– People don’t follow the rules. They know and understand the rules but don’t follow them. This is a discipline problem. Training will not fix this issue.
– People know the rules and attempt to follow them but they misinterpret the rules. This problem is impossible to fix proactively. Often, it’s because the directions/rules/procedures are sufficiently vague as to allow them to be misinterpreted. People try to do the right things but are second-guessed later.
Apparently, when things were explained to him, the judge just doesn’t get it. LO #2 was like that. I could explain why what she was doing was callous, insensitive, and hurtful and it just escaped her. When you couple this with the absence of malice and/or vindictiveness and lack of regret or remorse, it’s maddening to deal with. At least when you sense that you’re being screwed with, you may not understand why, but it’s easier to deal with.
In a professional setting, it can be catastrophic.
I definitely suffered Limerent Lunacy. I disclosed to my younger married employee LO for God’s sake. I’m not sure what I did is any better than the judge and it’s probably worse. I’m just lucky LO didn’t retaliate and she was able to move on. But it has affected our relationship. I still feel the disclosures tension beneath the surface when we interact at times.
I can remember the weeks leading up to disclosure. I wanted to tell LO so badly how I felt. I was just waiting for an excuse to come along and it finally did. I didn’t even hesitate to get the words out of my mouth. It felt so good to say them. Lunacy!
Looking back now, I was out of my mind. My limerence now is well past the clouded judgement stage and into the “when the hell will this end, I want you out of my life” stage.
I’m curious, Speedwagon, do you think your primary motivation for disclosing to LO was a desire for reciprocation?
Yes, for sure it was. It’s every limerent’s main desire I think.
What if she had disclosed she had feelings for you? What would you have done with the info, given that you were both married?
Not to be rude, but it’s asking a lot of someone to potentially be vulnerable and verify feelings and then not do anything further.
Speed,
I guess I forgot she was married. Had you mentioned that in the past? I could have sworn she was younger, with an SO but not married yet.
A lot to remember with everyones stories here. Pardon me if this is a dumb question.
@Marcia
I don’t know, I was limerent and not thinking clearly. I fantasized about everything from a torrid affair to just being content in our affection for one another. I never really thought it through rationally. Quite honestly, I never considered her not being somewhat reciprocal in her feelings.
And, we’re back!
https://livingwithlimerence.com/if-i-only-knew/
I think like most limerents I came This Close to committing some form of Limerent Lunacy. Or maybe I did commit Limerent Lunacy – you be the judge. Both times, even if it did not result in disclosure (one stripe of lunacy), it did result in me dismantling the relationships I was in (another stripe of lunacy), partially (but not completely) because of the limerence.
The limerence was a cattle prod. One could say those relationships had to end anyway, but without the limerent episodes, I may not have done it.
In one case, I got together with the LO afterwards; in the second case I did not.
The relationship with LO #1 was intense, and we were both very in love. We were together for a year. It was a disaster because we were fundamentally incompatible. I often think of the whole relationship as very chaotic and a lunatic episode. We were so bad for each other.
I could have disclosed to LO #2 after my second relationship ended but something stayed my hand. First of all, I knew limerence does not equal success (see above). Second, the incompatibilities and obstacles (except for me being in a relationship with someone else) were still there – and even without the Big Obstacle, the pros never outweighed the cons – even with limerence tipping the scales in favor. Plus, for some reason, the limerence changed very quickly once I was free of the relationship I was in (which was toxic). I was still somewhat limerent – but it faded very quickly. This is interesting, considering we all want to be rid of limerence.
Eventually, the limerence was gone altogether. I look back at it with a sense of wonder. How could I have felt so strongly for LO #2? Objectively, LO #2 is very appealing, but still the limerence was out of proportion. Funnily enough, LO #1 got in touch with me out of the blue about this time – and I was also interested to observe that not only did I not harbor any limerent feeling for LO #1, but I found them slightly repulsive! This is not through any effort on my part, I wasn’t trying to devalue them, etc. I just looked at them and how they had led their lives, and was just so glad I never stayed with them, I felt I had dodged a bullet.
So, this at least puts to rest the issue of needing to (sexually) discharge limerence before being able to get over it – it is not necessary (at least for me, sample of one). I developed my own theory of limerence (no Dr. Bellamy here, but we all can throw our hat in the ring once we’ve experienced this, right?) which is that: Limerence is in proportion to the need it is trying to substitute for.
LO #1 for me was about acceptance.
LO #2 for me was about freedom.
These are possibly the two biggest things I have ever sought consciously or otherwise in my life. The limerent episodes respectively propelled me towards getting more acceptance, and regaining my freedom. I would not have done it otherwise – inertia is a Thing. Limerence, as I’ve said, is a powerful cattle prod.
I am now in the honeymoon stage of getting into a relationship with someone new. The feelings are strong but it is NOT limerence (thank god), and when I look at the need I am seeking to fulfil pursuing this connection, it is not quite as big a thing as the first two. My … attention? obsession? infatuation? … therefore is proportional. It is not a limerent-sized need, so it does not require limerent-sized reaction. It is a worthy goal, and one that is important to me (its pretty hard to trump “freedom” for example – that one was a raging, insatiable, lunacy-invoking beast) but it is less fundamental an issue. I actually think that is why most of us are ashamed or embarrassed by limerence; on some level we know it reveals we have some sort of massive problem in our lives that need to be addressed. It is revealing to have limerence. I shows us at our most vulnerable, and that we have (massive) cracks in our lives that we may not want to acknowledge. (I think a big one, in modern society, is loneliness.)
I personally feel that desire for another is driven by our desire of what they represent (to us) and we seek to integrate that by pursuing the Other. It’s a utilitarian way of viewing personal relationships that some people may hate, but I might argue that it is not in contradiction to Love. In fact, I think love is when a person is no longer “useful” to you, but you love them anyway by putting their interests above all.
I think this theory gives rise to a more nuanced version of the “purposeful life” solution. There are many ways in which you can lead a purposeful life, but I think the only purpose that can “resolve” your particular episode of limerence is specifically that which drives the limerent episode. So, for me, after episode with LO #1, I gave up being a rebel and outcast and became the epitome of acceptability and respectability – I did all the right things, everyone loved me, I lead so many things in my community … etc. I “grew up” as it were, and became a functioning member of society. I achieved a lot in that time of my life.
Until that became a trap I needed to escape. Enter LO #2. Who shook my world so hard I questioned everything I wanted and had, and in the end, left my world as I knew it. I freed myself. And that was the point and purpose of that limerent episode. LO #2 was just a body for the concept. I look at this LO now, without the halo of freedom and … nothing. I feel nothing. Now when LO #2 texts me … I sometimes don’t reply for a day or two (or even at all sometimes). That is such a contrast whilst in the lunacy phase of limerence it is astounding.
So … take heart. Lunacy can pass. I hope it does so for all you suffering folk out there. But perhaps have a think of what is missing from your life and what you are trying to gain from having LO in your life.
#NLL
You have made a very eloquent case here. I think I have tried to make this distinction myself in the past, though unsuccessfully.
So yeah: What if the entire purpose of your existence has always precisely hinged upon finally winning in a LE? What if every calculated choice/decision/direction you have ever followed in your life was made for the purpose of making yourself finally eligible and worthy of the attention of a LO? Purposeful living, yes?
Hi James A.,
Interesting that you say you have grappled with the distinction yourself. What is your take on it?
I think each LO came (for me) at a juncture of a Big Decision, where my life needed to take some direction. I had to CHOOSE what was a Purposeful Life … at that point in time. The LO came as a herald, a sign that I couldn’t ignore this any more. I find it interesting that LO #1 led me one way, and LO #2 sort of led me the opposite. There is no “one purpose” as such that I needed to subscribe to to escape the LE – it was just the purpose that I needed at that point in my life … which was different from the purpose I needed at a different point in my life.
This level of uncertainty will drive some of us here mad, I know: we want an answer – how to get rid of limerence. And the answer is … it depends. It depends what you are needing. It depends what serves your current purpose. And for you to know that … requires not an answer from the interwebs external to yourself but deep introspection – sitting with yourself and digging and digging till you find it, resolve it, and thus remove the root cause of your limerence. BY the way, I say this so easily seemingly … but going through the process is Hell. My last LE was just over two years.
It was … *shudder* not something I want to go through again. I just want to acknowledge that.
You asked if a Purposeful Life could be the “purpose of making yourself finally eligible and worthy of the attention of a LO?” I actually think of it more that … we have a greater call, but because we are in a physical body, it gets expressed in a way that makes physical sense: ie. the pair bonding mechanism gets triggered (because that is how we organisms work) but it isn’t about pair bonding AT ALL. It is about whatever issue we are trying to resolve in our lives, and the way to get us to pay attention is … pair bonding, one of the most powerful biological tools in the box. It just LOOKS like it has everything to do with LO – but LO is a stand-in, a substitute for the Real Thing … you are longing for, with all your heart and soul.
THAT’s why LEs feel so intense, that’s why it doesn’t make sense why this average LO walks around with a glow, that’s why you cannot get them out of your mind. We think there is something about LO … but it really is something about our lives, about what is missing, about what we want even if we don’t know we want it. It manifests as limerence. For some of us, it comes when something comes up – at mid-life often, when existential questions become more forefront as we see the physical proof and realize we are not immortal, or when some life-shaking even like loss of a loved one happens. For others, limerence is a life-long experience, an ongoing need in life which does not get resolved and so keeps transferring LO to LO to LO … ad infinitum.
So purposeful living … is not to make me worthy of LO. It is to free me from LO.
Hi,
I think I completely agree. To me, this is often how obsessions work : it’s your subconscious trying to make you aknowledge something by repeatedly poking you with a vaguely related stick.
The worse phase of LE for me was when I needed to realize something about the relation (which was extremely chaotic) and when I did, most of the obsession disappeared.
I made the connection with obsessions because 10 years back, I started being recurrently afraid of pregnancy denial. The fear was there out of nowhere and would not go away. A few month later, a gynecologist accidentally found I had a large but completely asymptomatic and benign ovarian cyst and the fear immediately disappeared, and never came back. I suspect somehow my subconscious new something was a bit off, but wasn’t able to pass the info to me clearly so it tried something in the general vinicity…
I’m not completely out of the woods with lo yet, but I also realized this for me is about adventure, passion, and connection, and as I find a way to put it in other aspects of my life the whole thing gets much more bearable.
The thing is that I realized that more than a year ago but couldn’t help get deep into limerence anyway, so I suspect this was not the only message or knowing this was not enough.
Hi Suspiciously anonymous,
„but I also realized this for me is about adventure, passion, and connection, and as I find a way to put it in other aspects of my life the whole thing gets much more bearable.“
If it’s not too intrusive, may I ask what it is exactly where you found these missing things? I‘m curious because I think the headrush and good feelings that limerence brings (at least in the beginning) are hard to find elsewhere.
Hi Mila,
I think the limerence head rush is not replicable. 🙂
I think that is why so many of us who have experience it linger … either in it, or intellectually intrigued by it long after the fact. It is an extraordinary experience. Truly an outlier of mundane existence.
But it comes at such a price, most of us are not willing to pay.
For me, I find immense pleasure in: travel, meaningful friendships, intellectual discourse, new experiences. In my love life I have learnt to appreciate beyond being struck by lightning: I am learning the pleasures of healthy connection, touch, learning what makes me tick and turns me on, advocating for my own needs, being a more active instigator of romantic interactions rather than passive recipient, better body image, acceptance, expectation management, setting and respecting boundaries.
In other words: no longer lunatic, I find pleasure in many things in life I have some degree of agency in and control over.
No longer lunatic,
„ In other words: no longer lunatic, I find pleasure in many things in life I have some degree of agency in and control over.“
That resonates a lot with me. At the moment I’m off work for a while, I relish having time for the kids, just following their banter, or learning for school with them, trying out recipes, doing sports, preparing a work project I‘m looking forward to etc, also things are great with SO at the moment, and I do feel lucky with my life.
As you say, it’s satisfying to be in control, make things happen without feeling dragged along by some force.
Contentment like that isn’t the tingly, exciting waking up to life that limerence can be.
But right now, I can look at that from afar and not miss it. Don’t know how long that will keep up (having had three LEs following each other in the last ten or so years, I’m not used much to not being limerent at all), but for the first time I‘m hopeful that this was the last LE ever because I don’t need it anymore.
Hi Mila,
When I read what you write, I do feel you appreciate the solid offerings of your life. And recognize the satisfactions from that are different from limerence – superior in fact. The question is whether in this version of life, some need of yours (that caused you LEs) is being satisfied. I think that SPECIFIC need, whatever it may be for any individual, has to be satisfied before we are “safe” from limerence recurring.
I was scared after my second LE that if I ever got romantic feelings for someone again, it would be limerence-level (could barely function with that level of obsession and intrusive thoughts). That may feel “extraordinary” and it is – in a bad way! It sorta feels good cos it is triggering all the addiction chemicals, but we all know looking at the effect on our lives what a clusterfuck it is. A normal level of feel-goods in a normal attraction feels great without the extreme downsides (not too many, it isn’t perfect either, let’s acknowledge that! the key word here is “extreme”).
Hi No Longer Lunatic,
I know what you mean, I wonder myself about this need and whether it would rear its head again.
I‘m not sure yet, but at the moment the need that I had seems to have vanished or be quiet at least. I cannot precisely name that need, but it was there and seems to have changed, or maybe that’s only wishful thinking.
I might really change with age, nearing 50.
For me, limerence does also have positive aspects, and I think I was limerent for my SO back then. Things got interesting after limerence ended, but I have fond memories of that heady time.
Limerence got painful when it wasn’t „allowed“ because I was married.
And somehow something seems to have quietened inside me now, maybe with slowly recognizing that I’m getting older, life is short and precious and full of goodbyes, it’s time to let go of some needs and insecurities and appreciate what I‘ve got.
Hi Mila,
For me it was not one thing that was as strong as limerence but adding to these needs from other sources. Everything pales when compared to limerence but things are still there! Trying to actually get re-invested in my job(that I had ignored a lot) helped, and getting invested in activities too. Music for instance can be both connection (when in a group) adventure (on stage) and passion. For me as this was mostly mixed with Lo it did not help until I could start splitting the two a little bit…
But for instance you could try a group/stage thing like theater or dance I think (especially if stage is not your thing, so it shakes up your comfort zone!)
@NLL,
I just want to say I think you are really onto something when you say that the crux of it is identifying the one big issue (your ‘acceptance’ and ‘freedom’) that is the stick that limerence is poking you with. This makes so much sense to me. Thanks for sharing this viewpoint. Welcome to the world of having a three letter abbreviation here on LwL – All the best from LaR.
As a married man who disclosed my feelings to a junior coworker while working for a government agency that definitely doesn’t tolerate that sort of thing, I can confirm that this article is spot on, in particular the Chain of “Reasoning”. At the time, I truly believed that telling her how I felt (and then asking her how she felt about me) was the only reasonable thing for me to do. Not only did it seem completely reasonable, it seemed like something I HAD to do.
These days I guess I’m more or less still in limerence lunacy depending on how you define it. I mean, I’m still involved in an emotional affair with a junior coworker despite all the possible consequences, so that’s certainly a degree of ongoing lunacy. But it feels pretty controlled and predictable, we follow our rules, accept what we can’t have and savor the little moments of connection and warmth here and there, and don’t try to push boundaries or go for more.
But I worry about a return to full blown lunacy at some point in the future when she does leave our workplace. It’s definitely coming – maybe as soon as the next couple of months, maybe not for a couple of years, but there is definitely an expiration date on our time working together. And knowing myself and my feelings, I worry that when that date gets set and as it gets closer, I’m going to start feeling increasingly desperate to keep her close and avoid losing her, and she’ll likely experience the same feelings towards me, and I think that’s going to be a really dangerous time where one or both of us could fall back into full-blown limerence lunacy and it’s going to take a lot of insight and self control to avoid doing something really risky or destructive.
LiS,
I worked for the Feds for 42 years. In the wrong agency, that could cause you no small amount of grief. I had 3 interns assigned to me over the course of my career. I was scrupulous about my interaction with them. I guess I did OK since they all went to work for us after graduation.
There was a guy in my section at the last agency I worked for who I’m surprised got away with some of the stuff he did. But, nobody blew the whistle on him. If someone had, he would have been so far over the line that he would have been gone.
The closest thing I came to an issue didn’t have anything to do with an EEO complaint. We had a woman on detail to us. I was overseeing her work. Our Office of General Counsel was being particularly difficult and I made the comment that sometimes I wanted to beat them about the head and shoulders with sticks.
She went to our boss and he explained it was just an expression. I wasn’t really going to beat the lawyers with sticks, as tempting as that would be.
Hi Lost in Space,
I give you the same advice you gave me:
What kind of memories do you want to have after she left?
Do you want the bittersweet, loving memories of someone you had a unique relationship with while keeping your boundaries intact and your marriage untainted, or do you want the knowledge of having had too much, having crossed a line and betrayed your own conscience- and if I judge her right from what you wrote, there would be pain and shame on her side afterwards, maybe recriminations, bitter talks about that you shouldn‘t have etc etc.
Is it not better to leave the whole time of intimate talks and looks and supporting each other untouched in your and her memory as something special but never hurtful for others?
Sorry to be so sordid, but reality tends to be sordid after a headrush of limerence and heedless actions.
And I think it does matter what you think about it now, you will remember it when the time comes. There will be an emergency brake.
I suspect „having had too much“ doesn’t have the meaning I intended. I meant it as having been too greedy. having more than is healthy
Also, I seem to have used „sordid“ wrongly😂I meant something like „bleak“
I thought “sordid” fit just fine. But, if it wasn’t the meaning you intended to convey, “bleak” works.
Thank you LE,
I think I meant a mixture of bleak and also a bit sordid.
Thanks Mila. I know you’re right, that there’s nothing to be gained and everything to lose by trying to hold on to this thing past its natural expiration date. And I know that if I behave well and she behaves well, then a few months after the separation the pain will fade and the limerence will finally die out and I’ll have some nice memories of her and I’ll be free from all the unpleasant emotions I’ve felt pretty regularly for the past 2 years. It’ll be a good thing. I know it will. My logical brain knows this.
But my oh my, it’s going to be hard and it’s going to be painful! Because my emotional brain doesn’t want nice memories, my emotional brain wants to cling to LO, wants to keep her close to me forever. I don’t want to fondly remember our intimate talks – I want to keep having them forever. I don’t want to just remember how she smiled at me – I want to keep seeing her smile at me, keep feeling the warmth of her smile forever. And I’m pretty sure that as the end approaches, we’re both going to be suffering at the thought of it, but we’re going to respond differently according to our own natural tendencies. She’s going to deal with the pain by withdrawing, by putting up a cold front, by avoiding closeness and affection with me in our last weeks together because it’ll hurt her too much. And that’s going to make me feel increasingly anxious and desperate to try to break through her walls, to somehow get her to express her true feelings again, to somehow feel her warmth again. It’s going to consume me and it’s going to make me want to do crazy things to try to regain what we used to have. It’s going to take everything I have to just keep my feelings inside and do the right thing on the outside, one day at a time.
I’ve been thinking about going on antidepressants for awhile, to get through the end. I’ve never taken them before. I know a lot of people say they don’t like antidepressants because they feel numb, feel like a zombie. I keep thinking that would be a good way to feel for awhile. I’m tired of feeling feelings. I’d like a break for awhile. I want to just get through my days and do what I’m supposed to do and not feel much of anything. I don’t know, maybe that’s just taking the easy way out and I’d somehow regret it later, not really having the full unabridged experience. Or maybe I really should start an antidepressant now and continue it until she’s been gone for a few months. I don’t know, it’s just something I’ve been thinking about.
I know that this limerence is not good for me. Moral issues aside, I know it brings me a lot more pain than pleasure. When things are good between us and we’re close and talking all the time, I still suffer from the frustration of always wanting more and the anxiety of wondering how long it’ll last. When she’s being cold and avoidant, the pain and anxiety is intense. I know that there’s no way to keep her in my life without experiencing all these unpleasant feelings. And yet I so desperately want to keep her in my life. Lunacy!!
Hi Lost in Space,
I do feel with you. I had the impression that you reached a calm and happy stage with this, kind of having the cake and eating it, an envy for all of us, but that wasn’t right, I see now. I know that I advised thinking about the future time when she will leave, but now I’m not so sure. It seems to pain you unnecessarily in the present, and it reminds me of myself when I learned that my LO would leave. This moment takes on the quality of a doomsday, in fantasy the loss is unbearable. As a consequence, the present state of things seems to be more precious, a paradise that will be lost. But you say yourself that even now it does you no good at the end of the bill (I don’t know if there’s an expression like that in English).
I don’t have any experience with antidepressants. My instinct is to say that it‘s better to live through it fully conscious as some things need to be lived through to be able to let go of them completely afterwards. I also have no experience of pain medication when giving birth, not needing it with my two kids, but I hear so often that when it was necessary, sometimes my friends were too numb to push in the right moment with the right force, ending in a cesarean (which is also fine as long as both are healthy, I don’t want to start a discussion about that, I just want to say that sometimes numbing the pain numbs other necessary impulses too, which can’t be helped sometimes and is necessary for a good outcome and for overall wellbeing of everyone).
But as I say, I’m not to judge if you need it or not. I just think, if you think of resorting to such help, limerence really doesn’t do you good, and the treasure you are afraid to lose is mainly something you built up in your mind (not making the whole mess less painful or real, I know).
I also think that a not so small part of this LE‘s hold over you is her cold/warm cycle. You were hurt by her repeatedly going cold on you without explanation so much that you fear it like hell, it makes the good times much more precious than they would be if she would be consistent, and it exacerbates the fear of a final hurt.
You were kind of trained to try to keep her warm and at your side at all costs. I think it’s a dubious reason to hold a relationship dear. It’s not the only one, of course, but as I said, I‘m sure it does play a not small part overall since it serves the primal fear of being abandoned.
Pardon my intrusion, Lost in Space.
Mila has some great insight for you. I would like to add something.
Here is how I would like to see you handle the impending withdrawal from LO: focus on a physical, outdoor goal.
I prefer that you don’t use antidepressants. I have used antidepressants and I think they have value in some situations, but I don’t think they are a good idea for you in this situation because there are better options.
I encourage you to consider committing to 75 Hard. If you aren’t familiar with it, google it. I think you are capable of accomplishing that very difficult goal and I think the outdoor exercise will regulate your mood better than any antidepressants.
If that doesn’t speak to you, will you choose a race and train for it? Do the majority of your training outside if possible. Sunlight is a fabulous mood regulator.
Speaking of mood regulators, my favorites are
Sunlight
Exercise
Gratitude
Connecting with trusted, likable people
Hard physical labor with a purpose
Maybe you can make a list of your best mood regulators and lean into them even when you don’t feel up to it.
Mila, you didn’t use pain meds when delivering your babies? Wow! You are amazing!
Lovisa,
well, I cannot brag about that, I was simply lucky, both births were very quick, only a few hours, and easy, no tissue damage or anything. It’s much easier to cope without medication when you don’t have to go on for hours and hours without break, or if it gets complicated.
It still hurt a lot🙈 but actually I was more afraid of needles and medication than birth pain.
I actually think every woman who gave birth is an amazing hero (heroine?) no matter how it went!
Miss Lovisa!!!!!
I have missed you. I haven’t seen you post in awhile. Added that I have been posting less due to my setback last month. I haven’t even read the last few posts of Dr L’s, Trying to keep my mind focused on everything but limerence. But I still like to come in a visit with my friends here on LwL.
LiS
It may seem like an obvious point, but as I have experienced … don’t fall into the trap of self medication. I did it 20 plus years ago and it’s still stuck with me. I tried to use ir for limrence with mixed results.
I have only taken pills once for about 6 months back in 2011 while seeing a psychiatrist due to a particularly stressful and depressing job that I couldn’t get out of. But when I finally did I stopped taking them. I didn’t like how they made me feel. But they in their own inadvertent way did help me cope until I could leave that job.
I agree with Miss Lovisa on sunshine. Now that it is cooling off for fall and not 100 degrees outside, I spend time on the porch or taking a walk when I get home from work before I do whatever I need to in the evening. It quietly soothing and helps me move past my setback and get back on track. Take care my friend. Wishing for the best for you with your limerence.
@LiS
The only way to kill any mental pains is to go through it, or they will come back to haunt you again and again in the future! (paraphrase C. Jung)
When anticipating the worst of something to come, it would usually arrive lesser than one expects… (Stoicism)
Mila and Snow are almost over LE, reaching the other shore….
Try to stay away from SSRI.
LiS,
When I need to escape, I find a simple joy in simple home improvement projects. Working in my yard can be very therapeutic.
I also enjoy tinkering and improving my home entertainment system. Hoping to also make room for my piano, once I get my spare room organized.
Once I escape into one of these areas and really get into it, I thank myself later on. Because I wasn’t dwelling on insecurity and drowning in my own sorrows.
Hello LiS. I do feel for you. Heck, I have gone through the exact same emotions as you, as Mila said – stuck in hot/cold cycles.
I am not sure regarding the extent of interaction with LO. For me the amount of interaction was directly proportional to the positing and negative feelings. In the beginning, the highs and lows were so intense (high = walking on air, low = depressed).
With time, the intensity of these feelings tapered. As of now, LO contact is really minimal. This reduction in contact has really helped me, I have felt. I am sure it will help you too.
In your case, it seems there is LO reciprocation as well, so this makes getting out tricky. For me and LO, there seems to be reciprocation, but it is within barriers, as both have SOs.
A couple of hints that I seem to be doing better now: need to seek LO is reduced (not zero, yet!), when I see LO from a distance, I am a lot more calm, used to be distressed earlier, my overall quality of life seems to have improved, I am feeling more happy, in general. Hope the trend continues, wish me luck, y’all!
Hi ABCD,
glad to hear you are back on track! I think time and determination to get back to the chosen path will solve many issues.
I use this post to reflect a bit on my current situation too, if you don’t mind.
I‘m still in too frequent contact with my LO for my taste, but I reduce it very slowly, I don’t want to be unkind. I realize that it’s hard for me not to give people what they want, even when I know it’s not what I want. Also, it’s hard for me to bear it that people might like me less or think less of me, even when I shouldn’t care (don‘t mean necessarily only current LO).
I don’t feel limerent at all any more, I just don’t trust myself that I don’t lean too much to the other side, having negative feelings and being unkind to someone who was all the time just his own -a bit insensitive -self. So I try to get more distance into the friendship without hurting him. Don’t know if I succeed.
I reply on his texts, but sometimes delayed and not encouraging further texting, I hardly initiate texting any more, and especially in the evening I delay answering and sometimes leave it until next morning because I don’t want to encourage the playful evening-mood texting ending with good night-texts and the question whether to send kissing Emojis (haven’t heard from Imho in a while!)or not.
I think he notices and is kind of pissed off, (curt texts after that etc), but then my anger surges a bit, I mean, he doesn’t have a right to be pissed off at all.
I could go on a rant right now, how he simply takes it for granted that I‘m there to validate him and give him nice feelings in the evening etc, never once questioning if it’s appropriate to text in this frequency and intimacy with someone who‘s not his wife.
I know I did it too, but me, I questioned it all the time and tried to get out of this limerence. I suspect he could go on indefinitely like that, me being a kind of second wife to him when he needs it without officially endangering his family.
But I try to avoid this kind of aggressive feelings too since they seem to me a residue of limerence, I aim for equanimity.
My aim was to keep the friendship, and I will, but I have to say it won’t be the friendship I envisaged, at least for a while. I need to water it down and make it much less intense and not special at all. Maybe we can get back to more warmth in future, but I’m not sure. I seem to need a time out from him.
I want to add that it would maybe be different if he would have been open to honest talking (not disclosing, but any kind of honest talk about our friendship or feelings generally). It would have been more difficult for me to beat limerence of course, but it would maybe have saved a deeper form of friendship than I want to give just now. Now I feel I owe him nothing in terms of honesty (why I’m pulling back etc), and I’m pretty sure he won’t ask, just be pissed off and do nothing about it, so I’ll just continue to heed my own emotional safety and distance myself. I was the one to bring more intensity and warmth into the friendship, and now I‘m the one to take it back, it’s just logical. And I think in the end it’s the best for him too.
You see, I need to tell myself over and over that it’s ok and the right thing to eliminate the last ambiguous traces of more-than-friendship from our friendship, which is stupid since it IS the right thing to do, no matter if it doesn’t suit him.
Hey Mila,
Its great to have your update!
This is the key: “You see, I need to tell myself over and over that it’s ok and the right thing to eliminate the last ambiguous traces of more-than-friendship from our friendship, which is stupid since it IS the right thing to do, no matter if it doesn’t suit him.”
It may not suit him but it is the best thing for him, as well as for you. So you are on the right path by telling yourself this and staying the course.
It amazing how much difference a few short weeks and months have made, isn’t it?
Like, what you want now has clarified for you into a less close friendship than you thought you wanted before. And all because the reciprocal warm friendship that you wished for after the limerence had subsided is actually evading you, now that you see him with the rose-coloured glasses off. Because that’s just not possible with this man.
And I am not one bit surprised that your feelings towards him now veer towards slightly negative (no rose-coloured glasses anymore!). I think that is okay as long as you are aware that he may need to play catch up – and you are obviously being patient with him while that happens.
“My aim was to keep the friendship, and I will, but I have to say it won’t be the friendship I envisaged, at least for a while”
Time will solve it though, right? If only you could fast-forward to next year, I feel that everything will be resolved by then and a new pattern established.
Are you still hosting dinner for his family – or maybe you have already done it? This seems like a real hard ‘ask’ on you right now. Although I do see how its a very kind thing to do in terms of leaving friendship fade softly instead of abruptly….
Hope your work and health are also ok.
[I could write an essay on my own LO progress and I will soon but I can summarise it as follows: ‘euphoria is hard to find these days!’, I am increasingly over it, in other words]
Hi Bewitched,
thank you, you summarized it on the spot, and I appreciate that you support me that it’s the right thing to do since the people pleaser in me feels a bit guilty now and then.
I‘m not sure if you mean the goodbye- dinner, that’s done and over and seems to have been the turning point for me (somehow my gift helped me to get closure while it seems to have encouraged him to seek more contact).
They will visit in the middle of the month, and I have to say, I’m not in the mood for much effort. I‘m glad we made an effort to give them a very nice goodbye dinner, on my visit to him recently he just warmed up something from the freezer his parents-in-law made ;), so I don‘t feel obliged- I think they can come for coffee and cookies or something. I don’t mind hosting them and baking myself, but I won’t go to the effort of a dinner. I also try to get out other mutual friend on board, maybe we can do something all together.
I don’t think about it much.
The thing is that he hasn’t really said goodbye himself, to everything including his old job. He continues to want to come as a guest, taking an interest in everything etc., and that means he‘ll be working here end of the year and beginning of the year. But I don’t think about that much, too, it just hardens my determination to dial everything down on my side. I honestly think we will be much more pleased to see each other when we don’t have this much contact in between.
But I also still think I’m a bit too hard on him and in danger of throwing a loyal friendship away. It seems necessary at the moment though, and I try to keep myself in check.
„Euphoria is hard to find these days!“ that could have been me saying it. But at the moment I don‘t miss euphoria much, I‘m quite content without it just now. Maybe I’m getting old.
Looking forward to your essay!
Mila, “…how he simply takes it for granted that I‘m there to validate him and give him nice feelings in the evening etc, never once questioning if it’s appropriate to text in this frequency and intimacy with someone who‘s not his wife.”
When you write it out, doesn’t it sound obvious and strange to be doing that?
My situation is a little different – I know I’m not limerent because my mood doesn’t depend on my friend and I don’t have obsessive thoughts. Also his wife has said she has no interest in the marriage any more and that he can do what he wants. I think part of what appeals to him about me is that I am so much like his wife – with the difference that I’m nice to him! 🙈 So texting me he can pretend he’s texting an improved wife 2.0! And talking with him I can see what my ex-SO at one time felt – except I’m being nicer and more patient with my friend! Sad really. …Where was I going with this again..? Oh yes, some people (I won’t generalize with “men”) are really out of touch with everything related to feelings (i.e. they don’t realize how “in deep” they’ve gotten with us), but they clearly have emotional needs that they are doing all they can to get fulfilled! It’s a deep human need, and of course it’s going to hurt if it’s going to be yanked away. Sometimes you have to do it though.
I’m glad you’ve also cut down on the nighttime texting, that’s a dangerous (vulnerable) time!
Trifles,
„ some people (I won’t generalize with “men”) are really out of touch with everything related to feelings (i.e. they don’t realize how “in deep” they’ve gotten with us), but they clearly have emotional needs that they are doing all they can to get fulfilled!“
That fits my LO perfectly, and is part of what makes me angry. The expectation and taking for granted that someone else will provide endlessly for his emotional needs without himself acknowledging them, plus getting irritated without questioning his motives or responsibility himself, when the other person decides to stop giving the validation.
But see, you seem to see it with acceptance and amusement, while I get riled, which is a sign of the last barrier I have to overcome: just leaving him be how he is.
In your case, do you think you would be as calm and independent if he would be less consistent and suddenly not be reliant to text every day etc? Just curious, because I had calm phases in my limerence because I was so sure of his affection and steady interest. But I always wanted more- do you want more? Doesn’t sound like it.
“In your case, do you think you would be as calm and independent if he would be less consistent and suddenly not be reliant to text every day etc?”
Hmm… That’s a good question, and one I like to check up on with myself at regular intervals. He was very busy on a work trip recently, and I didn’t get the attention I was used to. I had some withdrawal symptoms(!), but by the end I was thinking: “This has been strangely intense – are we really that close after all or was that an illusion? Could/should we just dial it down?”. But then it picked up again.
And sometimes I feel the need to push for a deeper connection. Because we started off in the deep end and then veered toward the more superficial. But like I told LaR, that would be futile – there really isn’t anywhere for us to go. Still, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having a confidante, someone who supports and maybe even understands me… Just as long as we are satisfied with that!
Mila, Trifles,
Maybe I also shouldn’t bring gender into this, but as a male it is very interesting to read what you as females feel about these men (?(X)MFF) in your lives, and how they treat you. If I flip it round I think it can help me figure out how my LO might feel.
I have always been hyper-conscious of the need not to treat LO in any way like “wife 2.0”, especially since I have processed and understood my LE better. I know by doing it I’d be being grossly unfair to both LO and SO. Admission – it is sometimes a battle not to, because she is pretty much the next person after SO who I would always want to tell things to, talk to, get a view from etc. I have to really rein myself in. But I wonder if I overstep at times and might leave LO feeling like Mila has described how she currently feels.
But, flipside – sometimes LO could be seen as acting to place herself in something like that ‘2.0’ status with me. Not in a really calculated or heavy way and not all the time … but in little ways, definitely. Like I said to Vicarious somewhere else on this thread, I’m pretty sure that if I got closer to any other woman (than SO), and if LO knew, then she would push back hard and try to secure her own status with me. I have seen this happen several times, even when she has got it totally wrong about me being closer to one or two other women than to her.
I have learned (mostly) not to seek validation from LO. She gives great validation apart from when she is prompted for it. I am not sure if this is a character trait (Trifles? Any NTP insight?!) – I think so, as I see the pattern happen between her and others as well. Or, if it is a part of keeping the boundaries of the LE safe. I think a bit of both.
The learning from this is obvious: don’t ask and you will get.
However … LO will often turn to me as the first person when she wants validation herself. I have been a pretty willing party in giving that when it is sought. Maybe I have set myself up for this role.
So – Mila, Trifles or anyone else (female views especially welcome in this case) – what do you think, is my LO’s behaviour basically reasonable? You are saying it is tiring if your MFFs ask you for too much validation, and I get that. Do you think in the same breath that you seek/sought validation from them, or have done? Are or were you likely to dish it out to them if they don’t ask for it, and kind of ‘set yourself up’ to play that role? If you knew that your MFF had grown closer to another female (excluding their SOs), would you take steps to keep them closer? I am open to any answer, just interested – this whole discussion about validation intrigues me. Please set aside as much as possible – for now at least – the question of whether *I’m* being reasonable for keeping LO as a ‘friend’ … we have done that in many other places, and I do work very hard these days on how not to ‘use’ her for validation or other things that I shouldn’t.
LaR, very interesting questions!
re: my wife 2.0 comment – it came partly from me having gone through some phases his SO is apparently going through, but having reached the other side (maybe). So in a way I think in the beginning he saw me as providing him insight of what his SO would eventually evolve into(!). Kind of like how you are interested in my and Mila’s perspectives to understand your LO, he was interested in mine. Then I can imagine *he* imagined he was talking to future her when he was talking to me! I might be completely off-base (but I’m usually not! 😉)
“Don’t ask and you will get.” Sounds like me! Tell me to do something and I will push back. (Ha, I’m a great employee!) Try to manipulate me, I will push back even harder – and lose respect for you. Leave me to my own devices, and I (may) want to be generous with the validation. But I think a lot of people dislike being told what to do – not just NTP.
For me, I’ve learned to do the opposite: ask and you shall receive. Through growing sick of ambiguity, and because there are too many opportunities for misunderstandings when not face to face, I’ve learned to clearly ask for what I need. And he has been happy to provide it, most of the time. Or if not, at least I asked. That way I will avoid the disappointments of uncertainty.
The validation is mutual, but I don’t think I ask very often.
Also interesting question – if I found out my MFF had grown close to someone else, it could go two ways. I could – subconsciously – try to lure him back in (improbable) – or I could be hurt (realize I wasn’t that special) and use it as the excuse to let him go. The deciding factor being how close we were in the first place – but losing my “place” would be proof that we weren’t close. So there you go – if you want to get rid of your NTP LO (or anyone with a clear sense of self – or strong ego, if you prefer), find another one and rub her face in it. 😉 Disclaimer: results may gravely vary.
Lim-a-rant,
just saw your post, but no time now- will try to answer later!
Mila,
No worries at all. I understand the ‘no time to reply’ bit so much! Take your time and be kind to yourself today. The / my world isn’t gonna implode imminently if I don’t have my answers!
Trifles – great response and thank you! Likewise I will reply to that when I have more time (if only we didn’t have to work eh?)
Lim-a-Rant,
„because she is pretty much the next person after SO who I would always want to tell things to, talk to, get a view from etc. I have to really rein myself in. But I wonder if I overstep at times and might leave LO feeling like Mila has described how she currently feels.“
No, I think there are differences between our cases .
The first is, that back in the last year I also wanted to get a view from him and talk about important stuff to him like you describe, but he always kind of stalled, he isn’t used to talking about important stuff (back then for example about his decision to change workplaces etc)- what he wanted/wants from me was very frequent but superficial contact. I have to correct myself, I think for him it’s not superficial, this is maybe the most he can open up to anyone.
It was just not enough for me. I think you and your LO might be more on one level about what true talking/contact means.
Second, I don’t want to be taken for granted. That’s what I meant by „second wife“- someone who is simply expected to provide validation etc., who‘s always there and doesn’t need to be thanked for anything (not that I would treat my husband like that or he me! I mean kind of a cliché wife). This goes together with what you mentioned about your LO not providing validation when prompted. I provide when I feel like it and really mean it, and when someone feels entitled to my validation, he can go and scratch his own back.
I got the feeling that my LO takes it too much for granted that I will provide him with compliments and ego-building stuff when prompted, but it‘s very rare that he makes compliments himself, also he cannot be prompted because he doesn’t get the hint, and that altogether caused an imbalance for me – and I, not being limerent anymore, feel like I‘m done providing for the moment.
So I‘m not sure you can compare that to your LE. But I guess she reacts sensitively to being taken for granted, too!
„Do you think in the same breath that you seek/sought validation from them, or have done? Are or were you likely to dish it out to them if they don’t ask for it, and kind of ‘set yourself up’ to play that role? If you knew that your MFF had grown closer to another female (excluding their SOs), would you take steps to keep them closer? “
Yes, I sought validation and got it from time to time, but actually not that often. I think I set myself up to play the validationer (??), dishing it out when he didn’t ask for it in the beginning, so of course it’s partly my doing that he expected it from me at some point.
But most people naturally give something back, not just take and take passively, knowing that it’s a give and take.
I do think he honestly believes he gave it back too, which is not true in my books, but as I said, we are differently wired, he might be a bit neurodivergent, he just cannot give more.
But for me it was still painful to be in this imbalance while he was still so important to me. Now I simply don‘t want to dish it out anymore just because he expects me to.
The last one is an interesting question. My impulse is to say yes, I would have tried to keep him closer. But then, that would have been only in the beginning of limerence, and also when we were just friends and not limerent. I remember a woman incending my competitive streak when she tried to get closer to him back when we were just friends and were on a business trip together- I got a bit possessive and threw my weight around a bit until she gave up:)
But in the painful stage of limerence I might have taken that as a sign that I’m not special to him and that he‘s not worth it all, I might have grasped at this to end the LE. And now I frankly just wouldn’t mind.
I don’t know if that helped since everyone‘s needs and reactions are different!
Wow! Very concise insight. I definitely had Limerent Lunacy about five years ago in an equally ignominous fall from grace, except this young woman, in my case, was my superior.
I am currently limerent for another young coworker that I see every day, and I have been for over a year — but I haven’t said or done anything stupid in the whole time, and I’m not going to. We exchange glances and smiles (especially through dirty glass doors — shrug 🤷♂️), and that is the extent of it.
What I have learned in the last five+ years is that you NEVER disclose your limerent feelings to ANYONE, let alone your LO. Inadverdently broadcasting your feelings in your body language seems to be perfectly excusable — even amusing — but God help you if you do something deliberate such as a “speech act”, or especially putting something in writing, for fuck sakes! (horror face 😱) I have personally found that the best defence against limmerhell is to simply “excuse yourself” from the pressure of ever having to plan the perfect time to die by self disembowment or by disclosing your dear sweet fucklings to your Limerent Object, the object you want to own — mind, body, and soul!
You know, does anybody remember the whole debacle that ensued when a cute young intern actually did reciprocate the advances of a sitting U.S. president back in the 90’s?
“She can always say no, and I’ll be fine with that, I just want to know for sure” (DrL on the judge’s likely thought processes).
I think this point cuts to the heart of the biggest troublesome question for limerents. It is also one where the brain fog (‘lunacy’) clouds judgement the most.
I now have a few months hindsight from the point where I most strongly believed that I must disclose to get certainty (I didn’t do it).
Hindsight massively changes the way I look at it. I had no intention of anything progressing with LO, because of my SO. I just so strongly wanted to know, once and for all, if there was reciprocation, or whether what I felt in my head was pure brain trickery. Obviously, I still don’t know.
But the point is – had I disclosed, there was *no* good outcome, whatever her response would have been. And there were many potentially bad outcomes. My brain couldn’t really reason it out at the time. On one level it could but on the other the primal urge to do it anyway nearly took over – once to the point I wrote out a huge text saying it all but just never hit send.
Several LwL archive posts held me back and I returned to them in the closest moments. The one that L.E posted above (‘If only I knew’) is about the very best – it is the one that stopped me sending that text. I also found this one helpful on learning to live with uncertainty:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/living-with-uncertainty/
My thought process (in hindsight) is that LO didn’t ask for the situation, and that means it’s down to me to live with the uncertainty of not knowing. Better that than dump it on her as some kind of statement like “I’m interested but not actually interested, by the way are you interested?” (How ridiculous does that even sound?!)
I haven’t posted this to seem to have a go at anyone who did go the other way and disclose, as I know how close I was to crossing that rubicon. I have posted it for anyone reading it who might also be thinking “I need to disclose to get clarity / certainty”. I believe this is one of the most common, powerful but addled thoughts limerents have. If you, the LO, or both have an SO, there is basically no good outcome to disclosing, and lots of bad ones.
It took so much resolve and overriding of instincts at the time. But hang on a bit and it will look and feel different. The alternative of holding it in and living with uncertainty is not without its problems, admittedly. I don’t have the comparison with what I’d have learned if I had disclosed, but I feel happier with not having taken the risk. And feel I’d be in deeper water if I had.
Your LE may vary, but I think all this goes for almost all LE’s with spouses involved.
I disclosed to LO #2 (not my current LO) with the goal of going no contact. I was so jealous when she started dating someone at the time. I told her I adored her but had to get over her, so I was cutting her out of my life. She basically begged me not to do it, and told me she had genuine friendship with me and that such friendship is hard to find. She also told me that things wouldn’t be awkward between us. Well, they were a bit for a while, but she remains one of my best friends.
I am completely over her now due to transference to LO #3 and a very weird coincidence I can’t get my head around. I thought I was over her but realized a few months ago when she was supposed to bring a date to a group event that I wasn’t entirely over her. To cut a long story short, the guy never showed up because LO #2 decided she wasn’t interested in the guy because she wasn’t attracted to him. Interestingly enough, it was also the first night I actually got to meet LO #3 (I had seen her around before but never spoke to her). But this gets weirder; turns out the guy she was supposed to bring as a date was LO#3’s ex-boyfriend and a guy she was recently still dating on and off! So strange. But before I knew that, I felt like being confronted by LO #2 possibly dating a guy right in front of my nose helped me get over her. I swear it wasn’t just transference to LO #3, although that helped.
The strange thing is LO #2 always used to go on about the type of guys she likes, and they’re nothing like me. She did mildly flirt with me very early on in our friendship but that didn’t last. I have confided in her about LO #3 and my glimmery friend. I could be mistaken, but I detect a slight hint of jealousy. It’s like the proverbial “I don’t want you, but I don’t want anyone else to want you either.” I suppose it could have been a bit of a blow to her ego, but I am completely over her, despite still finding her attractive and liking her as a friend.
Hi Vicarious,
I think it is hard for you to make a true judgement on whether either LO2 or LO3 might be ‘into’ you, because of your marital status. I have read what you’ve said about the marriage being dead for years and intending to divorce. But for your LOs, your wife is still there in the background. And along with that, the threat of getting themselves a reputation as a homewrecker if they went anywhere with you, or tried to. So what you are seeing is just their version of the truth / their attraction (or not) that they can present in this situation. Not how it would be if you were free and single. Sorry if that’s hard to hear. Try and keep enjoying the benefits of being friends with these and other people for now.
Do LO2 and LO3 know each other (are you all in the same social circle) or is the mutual date in common just big coincidence?
I have a theory that many LOs don’t aspire to be their limerent’s Number 1 (and therefore be associated with home wrecking) but would move heaven and earth to protect their Number 2 status and their specialness to the limerent. Maybe this explains why your LO2 has displayed pangs of jealousy?
Thanks for the reply. My wife is very much in the background for me too. I still have a certain line I will not cross, no matter how bad my marriage is. As long as we are still living under the same roof, I’m not going to have an actual physical affair. I’ve made that commitment to myself. I think LO #2 and LO #3 both know that. But I’m probably engaging in some level of “monkey branching” with LO #3 if I’m being honest with myself. I’m not trying to have an affair (either emotional or physical) but I am trying to establish a nice friendship with a lady I could see myself with once my situation changes. I even told her I want to keep things innocent and platonic. If I leave my marriage, it won’t be for her (or any other woman), but because my marriage isn’t working for me and I’m fed up with the way my wife treats me. My wife is the type who would accuse any woman I’m dating of being a home wrecker even two years after our split. I know the truth, and if I did end up with LO #3 soon afterwards, I would want to prepare her for that. People are going to talk anyway. Ideally there should be a clean break and a period of no dating after the end of my marriage, but this lady is just too fantastic to pass up a chance with. She likely wouldn’t be interested, or would put me in the friendzone or end up with someone else, but I’d have to give it a shot anyway. I’d take the chance anyway.
LO #2 and LO #3 are both part of our big friend group. They’ve certainly been out together but I don’t think they’ve even been introduced (I was hoping to do that last weekend but it didn’t work out that way). Them dating the same guy was a big coincidence. He asked my male friend to introduce him to LO #2. Neither of us knew at the time that he had also dated LO # 3 and was still kind of dating him on and off.
Regarding jealousy and a special status, I think you’re onto something. Even before I disclosed to LO #2, I could see jealous looks on her face when I mentioned other women. She knew I liked her on some level at least. We both recently admitted to each other that it’s a huge ego boost as long as the person isn’t someone you find totally gross.
I’ve also heard a theory that women in particular sometimes friendzone guys they see as backup options. I’m not sure about that, but I think anyone can understand the appeal of knowing (or suspecting) someone is into you.
I think this point about the uncertainty being the limerent’s to bear is important. Ultimately I don’t think there is a situation where disclosing to LO is ‘pure’, there will always be that what-if?
In most cases, if someone discloses to LO but has an SO, I think they are certainly in the madness of limerence or have integrity issues. There might be some situations in long term friendships or with colleagues where clarity is needed, but I suspect they are few and far between.
I think there is always that fantasy with disclosure that the LO will reciprocate. But then what? In my case, I wouldn’t do anything about it, but it would have been tempting to think about acting on it. I still maintain that I would not cheat on my wife until we go our separate ways, despite things being strained and living like roommates for years. I had thought that I would try dating LO #2 if my marriage ended and she was interested, but I never thought she would be a fit for me deep down (unlike LO #3, who is absolutely wife material for me).
Hi Adam, it’s good to see you. You seem to be recovering from your set back remarkably well. I expected it to be worse, but you’re getting through it. Nice job!
I haven’t been posting much simply because I’ve been busy with other things. I’m still taking care of my mom, I have two pending court cases against my sister, and I have all the responsibilities of a mom of 5. It’s a busy life. Oh, I almost forgot to mention my good news. Mr. Lovisa got a nice promotion. He is doing a job he likes, he got a pay raise and he works from home now. It has been wonderful having him around! I love it so much.
Mila, my sister-in-law was more afraid of having an epidural than delivering a baby, too. She had four kids naturally. When she was pregnant with her first, she told me about a breathing technique that she intended to use for pain management during delivery. I laughed out loud. I didn’t mean to, it just happened. It was so rude of me. She forgave me for it. Anyway, she did it. Amazing!
Ladies who don’t use the pain medication during delivery are seriously amazing women!
Miss Lovisa
I had a very unlikely “wake up” call earlier last week. While eating my lunch at work I was listening to one of my favorite comedians Chris Porter. In a bit he was talking about men getting emotional. He said men don’t deal with infatuation very well. Towards the end of the bit he explained the different between infatuation and crazy.
“Here’s a good test fellas between infatuation and crazy. Infatuation is when you think about a girl a lot, wonder what she’s doing, kinda wish you were involved. Crazy is when you go find out.”
So at least I am not crazy lol
Congrats to Mr Lovisa. You get to see each a lot more. That’s nice. But just remind him when he wants a nice hot lunch not to try to put you in the microwave. No electromagnetic Miss Lovisa. 🙂
Adam, I’m glad you’re not checking on your LO, too. The comedian is funny with his definition of crazy.
Thanks for the tip about the microwave, lol. I forgot about that incident. You made me laugh.
Last night I learned that my sister is facing 3 felonies and 4 misdemeanors for her aggressive behavior towards my family. It has been awful to watch her destroy her most important relationships. I suspect that she always had the predisposition to do the things that she has been doing, but she used to keep herself in check mostly. Lately, she is just awful. She has been very preachy. She gets ideas in her head and then demands that other people agree with her. She insults and threatens people a lot. My son said that her use of Kratom might be the reason she is having delusions of grandeur (that’s what my therapist calls it). She seems to think that she has an elevated status above everyone else. I don’t know how to explain it. I’m so naive to substance use that it’s hard for me to understand what is happening. I heard that she behaved similarly to what she is doing now when she used to drink alcohol. She says she doesn’t use alcohol anymore that she uses marijuana and kratom instead. Anyway, her behavior is shockingly bad. We had a family meeting last night (of course she wasn’t present). My step-mom said, “What [sister] did to [Lovisa] is absolutely unforgivable. I can’t imagine anyone doing that to their enemies let alone their sister.” I said, “With all due respect, [step-mom] I appreciate what you’re saying, but [sister] has done so many despicable things to me, I don’t know which one you’re talking about.” My brother interrupted and laughing he asked, “Are you talking about the time [sister] made a fake dating profile and sent a man to [Lovisa’s] house to pick up his date?” I don’t think my step-mom was talking about that specific incident, but the conversation changed so I didn’t find out which thing bothers her the most. I know which one bothers me the most, but I’d rather not share it.
Anyway, I think we might make some progress now that law enforcement is helping us. Hopefully, my sister will take this opportunity to change course and get some mental health help.
Today is going to be bright and sunny! I intend to enjoy it!
Yeah, stalking your crush was so much harder pre-social media. You actually had to do physical surveillance on them.
Back in the day. One of the optional requirements for 1st class was to successfully stalk someone on a hike. If they found you 3 times, you failed.
I failed but I learned some things.
I was in a talk by NSA. The guy said they love today’s technology. He said that if they wanted to plant something on someone’s car in the old days it took a team of 3 people. One to follow the person into a store, one to plant the device, and one to keep lookout in the parking lot.
Now, they just hack the car or cell phone from their desk. If you can beam it, they can hack it.
Good point, L.E. “Crazy is when you go find out… On social media.” Are most of us a little crazy?!
“Are most of us a little crazy?!”
Some of us more so than others.
In college, there was a girl I really liked. I refer to her a The Crush in old LwL posts. I had a friend who was a dispatcher for the campus police. They had access to information about students, like SSN, make and model of their car, their license plate number, what lot they park in, and home and school addresses. Even better, they had access to someone’s class schedule. When I wanted to “accidentally” run into The Crush, I’d look at her schedule and I’d know where she was and where she would be going.
It was handy having friends in interesting places.
I didn’t use it often but I did use it. Once she positively shut me down, I stopped.
Ha, i think the pre-social media stuff was mostly o.k. within boundaries. It’s normal to have a crush, try and find a way to get to know them or ask them out in a way that isn’t a complete cold approach.
It’s then normal to get over it after a couple of months or not be totally destroyed, and get over them and not constantly check what they are doing.
During my first experience of limerence I had a big crush on a girl on my course, and checked several times to see whether she had signed up for my courses. When we were finally on a course together I did a normal deliberate get to her know her, but relatively gradually, then ask her out. She had a boyfriend she hadnt mentioned, but was obviously keen. We bumped into each other a few years later randomly in London when LE 2 was still pretty brutal, but fading, but I was in a relationship with now SO. She actually then chased me for a bit within the norms of me being in a relationship.
Anyhow, another private detour from me, but at least with a point. The weirdest thing was how conscious I was at the time of the difference between that normal, nice crush, and limerence, and understanding that something totally weird was going on with me, but not understanding how to do anything about it and thinking somehow it was connected to ‘love’.
So in a long way round, no, I think you can do things that are a little risque for a crush and not be crazy.
I think however social media massively lowers the barrier for most types of behaviour, so normal behaviour can easily tip over.
Social media is an interesting question. Just what is appropriate and inappropriate behaviour when Googling someone or looking them up on social media? My current LO is a very private person in some ways, but I found out quite a bit about her on Facebook, LinkedIn and Google. I personally think this is fair game if the information is publicly available, but you have to be careful what you let slip when talking to LO or others. For instance, I know what my LO does for a living, but I don’t think she knows that I know. I also found out that one of her family members recently passed away. I mentioned it to a friend the other day when I’d had a little too much to drink. I sincerely hope he doesn’t let anything slip and mention it to her because I wasn’t supposed to know that. If you’re going to go snooping for information, you have to be careful what you say to people!
Lovisa,
I learned a lot about breathing and other stuff in my prenatal course before my first birth, but when the time came I was basically just screaming my head off and beating everyone away who tried to touch me😂😂but that was because it went so fast.
Congratulations for Mr Lovisa! Sounds great! I hope the situation with your sister will de-escalate soon and she‘ll accept some help and you will be safe!
Hi Mila. I could not find a reply option to your posts, so I am posting here.
Looks like almost all of what you just said resonates with me!
In the past, my LO and I have used each other for constant validation. If I push back now, what would LO feel? Would she be hurt, but eventually be okay? These feelings are normal, but I guess that we need to fix ourselves first, right? Continuing down the LE was making me spiral towards depression, so that was very alarming. I had to take serious action, like other friends have said – hit the emergency break.
Though there has been no disclosure from either side, I am sure our emotions have leaked out on various occasions. In any case, I feel that disclosure can only make things worse. I think there is another post on LwL on disclosure, and the various scenarios mentioned there are pretty scary (LO complaining to boss at work, to SO at home).
Though uncertainty fuels limerence, I am slowly learning to live with the uncertainty. There are many other things in life that are uncertain, this is additional.
It is good to see that you have dialled down your virtual interactions with LO. I am sure it will help you in the long run. Delaying replying to texts will help a lot.
In my case, LO and I were/are not friends. We have not really had long/deep talks. So, in that sense, there is no pressure of ending a friendship.
Anyways, my mantra now is – make use of NC/LC, do not seek LO, invest my time in work, play, hobbies.
Lets see how I hold up if/when there is some warm and fuzzy LO interaction. Will let you all know how that goes.
Take care!
Hi ABCD,
I think you are doing very well and have grasped the most important truths! Living with uncertainty is the hardest, and accepting it is a very big step towards freedom. Also, I agree that you need to fix yourself first, especially when you were in danger of depression.
If the next interaction feels warm and fuzzy isn’t completely out of your control. I wouldn’t either expect warmth nor indifference, just stay awake and observe. Most of the fuzziness is in your own mindset.
I think you are on a good way, I wish you patience and good luck!
Thanks Mila!
Since the LO effects are wearing off (I think) for whatever reason(s), I am feeling better mentally. I am using this to guide myself further along, telling myself that I will be feeling even better in the future. For example, if I do not get affected next time I see LO and there is no interaction, like if she ignores me, and I am still cool with it, then that would be a huge step forward.
Another good thing that is happening is that I am now (over) analysing LO lesser and lesser. I used to do that a lot in the past.
Hang in there, you got this!
„ Another good thing that is happening is that I am now (over) analysing LO lesser and lesser.“
I think that’s a very important sign that you are getting better! The less analyzing and rumination, the less hooks this LE has got on your brain.
@ABCD
“I am using this to guide myself further along, telling myself that I will be feeling even better in the future”
Based on our last conversation and your statement here, I need to clarify myself. One CANNOT tell in advance or WILL how one is going to FEEL, it’s beyond our control! One can choose what to THINK in any circumstance.
The Stoic way is to tell oneself, “I know the bad/worse/worst WILL come sooner or later, I will feel bad/worse again. However, I’ll just calmly WATCH my feelings/mental pains coming and going (mindful meditation)”. Actively resisting feelings/pains is FUTILE.
Stoic is about mentally preparing for/assuming the possible worst to come and what to do to cope with it when it arrives (100% Stoic assumes it’s already here and actively deal with it). Based on Jung, The Unconscious works AGAINST whatever one wishes/wills most.
I can’t convince you about Jung’s theory, but I can testify my own experiences in xLE — I anticipated (almost terrified) the worst about what xLO would say and do at work (to me and others). Then in my dreams, for so many times, he just appeared as a white knight, interacted with me as I ideally wished in the dream-reality, and even more than I could have wished, and “save” my mind/psyche, — a damsel in life-time cptsd stresses”.
In the hindsight, I understand now how my cptsd was eased gradually and almost totally healed finally, through many powerful dreams and my own mental work on it. Between the logical mind and Unconscious, who is more powerful⁉️
Just a penny of my thought. I wish you continue feeling better and better.
To complete my lengthy updating here,
I want to add further, that I’m aware that he might be a bit neurodivergent, that he simply reacts a bit differently and cannot instinctively see what is needed by the other person. I used that a lot in understanding that he simply cannot be the person I thought he was, that he gives as much as he can give in terms of honesty and talks, and this helped me overcome limerence too.
But isn’t he still an adult with a capacity of learning? After a certain time of blaming all on his probable neurodivergence and absolving him, I have to say, I still think he could do more than sit back and say „that’s just the way I am“ if he really wanted to. Maybe he is not capable of that, but then he really must be a very restricted person, and I don’t believe that, I believe that there’s still a smidgen of smugness and laziness about it to stay that passive but expecting action from the other side, and just state that you simply are like that and cannot help it.
In the end it’s all helping me to overcome last specks of too fond feelings. And I hope that once I get the balance back I hope we can be good friends again on his own restricted base but with all the positive sides he also has, loyalty, calmness, steadfastness, enjoying little things etc.
Hi thoughtful and caring Mila,
From my perspective, you still analyze your LO (still in your LE) from your stand points, that it seems you do not completely understand neurodivergent, or understand them to a certain degree. However, you can’t fully accept it, because it’s not how your mind functions.
As long as you prefer/insist on your “belief”, it’d be harder to get your desired peace to be a good, long/short distance friend to him.
Their neural/thinking/feeling system is not “restricted” (by their definition) but wired in particularly, squared ways. Some neurodivergent can recognize their own special ways, some are unaware or uncomprehending how a non- neurodivergent mind works. They simply live/behave the ways they feel most “natural” and comfortable. Trust me, there is little laziness or sense of intentional “entitlement” on their end….
Hope you rest well in your break. 🫂
Well, Snow, but neither you nor me know if he‘s really neurodivergent. I‘m not a friend of these labels anyway, I just used it to explain some things for myself, but I’m not at all sure if he fits these labels or not. It’s my personal instinct, knowing him for a long time that he would be able to change a bit more and isn’t to be absolved completely from all responsibility to act caring or thoughtful. Also I think it still does help me more and gives him more credit to assign him some responsibility for our friendship. Each his/her own way to cope…
And thanks for your good wishes❤️!
Mila,
Precisely, we both don’t know any other human being fully, particularly that all of us evolve in either short or over time. I was just speculating from what I read from your posts.
For me, it would be controlling or anxiety-driving to “assign” any responsibilities to my short or long-term friends (ONLY expectations of any sort bring pains. ) I do not have that right (sometimes in the past I foolishly wished and unwisely acted upon the desire) at any given moment. The most beneficial ways, IMO, is to cherish what still remains in the friendship after it has changed/evolved. Nothing in Life ever stands still….
I was just presenting my thoughts, not trying to meddle your own way of coping and solving your unique concerns. Wish you more peace🕊️
Hi Snow,
I know what you mean and you are of course right. Only in reality I’m not there yet. For me to reach that relaxed state of just cherishing the friendship, the friendship needs to change/evolve first, and me too. I do want to reach that state in the future, but I feel I have to get a healthy distance first. The way he keeps texting daily about superficial stuff and himself doesn’t feel healthy to me.
I also do think that there is responsibility for a friendship on both sides, or, if you want, there should be no responsibility or expectation on either side – when I choose to distance myself he shouldn’t expect otherwise either, after that rule🤷🏻♀️.
Mila,
I totally agree that a healthy distance is needed in your situation. If you feel bothered by his daily texting, then decline or stop altogether responding for a while. Whatever or however he would respond your decision IS HIS BUSINESS, beyond your control. Between your peace of mind and your caring for him, you may have to choose only one: ask your own Athena’s advice. Remember DrL’s blog? https://livingwithlimerence.com/who-is-to-blame-for-limerence/
I agree with you that a good friendship entails a certain degree of loyalty, but it can’t be EXPECTED or compelled, it’s willingly and pleasantly given by both sides. If a friendship comes with a required or expected or entitled responsibility, then it would a burden; no one would like that. Only when mutual willing “responsibility” coexist, a worthy and harmonious friendship would last.
Human relationships of any kind cannot run satisfactorily under any forms of contracts or rules, our emotions don’t work by manmade rules/laws..
I agree, Snow!
If it’s meant he’d always be your friends, he will be there even if you cut off all communication, FOR A WHILE.
If he walks away, then it’s NOT meant that you two could remain lifetime friends. C’est LE vie.
Do you think you could let go off your wish to “control” a little bit and let time/fate decide for once? 😊
But not here;)
I think it’s a good thing that I control the contact right now. I felt long enough out of control when I was limerent.
I won’t abruptly stop contact, I‘m just reducing it to a healthy amount. He will still be there.
Hi Mila,
I saw all the messages from you and LWL pals today and so here I am to say hello to you and all.
I’ve not caught up on all the messages the last few weeks, but reading your post today, you are on a good path and doing the right thing. It seems you are simply tweaking the dynamics to a more appropriate friendship and frequency and not doing anything radical or being rude in my view.
I get the people pleaser dilemma , I recognise that in myself.
No, you are a woman with a lot in your life and he should be grateful ( I’m sure he is) for the level of authentic friendship you already consistently offer and bring to him 121, and also to the family with hosting get togethers and extending this beyond to others too !
If he wants more than you are offering right now he can seek some additional source/s for evening distractions/validation outside of just you and his family. But I think he may simply be operating subconsciously and is just so used to relying on you to fulfil his needs because he absolutely trusts you, and dare I say it, he may be a bit lazy or lacking awareness to actually reflect or question the situation on why he is wanting so much frequent contact.
So your current ” distancing “(adjustment or realignment, maybe a more appropriate words ) is simply influencing the friendship in the rightful direction.
If it were in the workplace or in the military I would say you are demonstrating great leadership qualities.
I’ve been away as you noticed, went far away which I needed. Will update in due course….. 😘
Hi Imho,
You are still there!! I‘m glad. It’s good to hear from you.
I hope you had a good time being far away! Sounds exciting.
Thanks for your input, I also think I’m doing the right thing, only sometimes I have to check my angry or riled reaction to some texts because I’m not being fair then. I‘m getting better at it but sometimes my suddenly surfacing aggression leaks a bit through. He‘s so obvious when he wants a pat on the head, and then I refuse to give it to him. I don’t want to give him his daily dose of validation anymore, I‘m not there yet to say, who cares, I’ll humor him if it makes him feel good (I don’t mean something inappropriate, I mean compliments etc he‘s fishing for).
But as I say, I‘m getting better and more relaxed about it.
I hope you are in a good place concerning your LO and generally in your life! But please, don’t feel obliged to give an update or write here!
Thanks Mila,
One thing I’m trying to do that I learnt recently is “being comfortable with feeling uncomfortable”.
I have a tendency to people please, avoid conflict or what makes me uncomfortable, but long term this doesn’t work for you or others, so what you are doing is directionally right even if it feels uncomfortable or your LO rile/angers you.
In time I’m sure you can just let his yearning for a ‘pat on the head’ just wash over without triggering any emotional response.
Thank you for your words on sharing/ not sharing my situation. I’m mostly good, especially after my break away from the norm. I recommend it .
Hi Imho,
we seem a bit similar here. I hate conflicts and not being ok with everyone. I feel the urge to be liked again by the person I’ve a conflict with immediately, I cannot sit with it very well. The problem is to recognize at which time my bad gut feeling is only people-pleasing and which time it’s a correct instinct.
Usually I tend to follow my gut feelings because they are often on spot, but when it comes to conflict and the possibility of people liking me less, I‘m not sure, I turn into something like a scared child and don’t trust my own instinct about what the right thing to do is.
Not necessarily in this case of current LO, but for example my LO 1 (still a co-worker) has decided not to greet me anymore, and it might be because I was quite cool the last times we met, or any other reasons, and although he‘s a quite obnoxious person and I don’t even like him anymore, that kind of vexes me. I have to be good with everyone.
„In time I’m sure you can just let his yearning for a ‘pat on the head’ just wash over without triggering any emotional response.“
If I would be truly independent I would give him his pat on the head here and there, why not. But at the moment it feels (to me) that I have given him so much the last months/year in terms of validation and patting, and got always less back – I know one shouldn’t count and expect things back, but well, that‘s my bad side, so to say, at the moment I don’t manage to be magnanimous, I just don’t want to give that to him anymore. That’s what I call the last residue of my LE, this feeling of „not anymore“ and a bit of retaliation,of course that affects the friendship and isn’t ideal, but it seems to be a necessary phase for me. Once I’m over that the friendship might be lessened, but maybe we‘ll manage to get back to a relaxed and warm relationship. If not, so be it.
That’s a true sign that limerence is over- I couldn’t have born this prospect of losing this friendship a couple of months ago.
Sorry to have gone on. A lot of working in my brain at the moment.
I guess it’s no use asking what you did out of the norm since you won’t want to reveal too much- was it work related or did you take time off work?
Hi Mila,
it’s very intriguing how we go into this level of analysis isn’t it. I wonder if any of our LOs dig below the surface and explore and analyse their cerebral functions and emotions as we do …..
(Maybe best not to seek the answer to that one ! )
My break away was from everything – a completely different place and vibe. It took awhile to disconnect especially from work but then I just stopped technology as much as possible, no phone calls, no texting, no social media, no work, no news updates. I just let my mother know I was ok from time to time. I just lived where I was in that moment with the people and unique environment, which was so different to my normal life/ COO ( s’pheonix callout) .
I recommend to anyone to do it if you can, even for a week.
And on this learning I have gained, I would say to just be cool about your MFF / exLO interactions. To trust your instincts on your responses and frequency. And as you are a natural people pleaser, you are probably not coming across as curt in your messages as much as you think you are.
I just saw your new post about this potential new working arrangement again!
I’m sure you can deal with it, whatever the outcome will be. You can deal with that in due course, if needed, and not to concern yourself this weekend.
Imho,
So glad to see your “face” 👻 again after a long while and hear your “outlandish experience❓” — somewhere very different from your COO — country/culture of origin. Did you go to a place where there is actually no/litter technology, or did you purposefully cut it off?
Sometimes, muting all “buzzes” of technology is only way to acquire some inner peace and mental clarity. It’s great that you feel so refreshed after a few weeks of out-of-COO “retreat”!
Mila’s phone/texting and her analysis of MFF are the buns on a bamboo steamer again… 😮💨 (*sigh*). I’ll conjure a personalized prayer for her during my meditations.
Hi Imho,
that sounds very interesting. Was it a retreat or cloister or something? Don’t answer if you don’t want to. Even your SO couldn’t reach you?
Sometimes I think it would be so cleansing and restful to do something like that. I’m not sure I wouldn’t worry the whole time what’s going on with the kids etc🙈of course everything would be fine,but to quiet my mind would be hard, as you might guess from my gibberish here this weekend.
You are right, I just leave it be and will deal with it when the time comes. As I wrote to Bewitched, it was just a shock yesterday to know we will spend so much time together after all the work to distance myself from him. But it’s all in the mindset. I’m quite hopeful that until then everything will be more normal and I’ll actually enjoy having him there. I just have to bring him down from the notion of me as his second wife that he seems to have. He was always like that on business trips, being my shadow until the point of annoyance, but when I made a move to extricate myself he was ok with it without any rancour.
We will manage.
But I definitely have to stop thinking of him/this so much, be it in a negative and non-limerent way or not, it’s as unhealthy as being limerent.
Snow, I have no idea what you mean by buns in a steamer thing. I apologize if I go on too much. No need to pray for me, I know I’ll be able to sort it myself, it was just a blow yesterday and now I’m already partly recovered and back on track to a equanimous mindset regarding XLO.
@Mila,
“Buns on a bamboo steamer” means some leftover is been heating up (again).…
Please no need to apologize, not to me at least. I just felt sorry that you were driven up and down, rarely had enough peaceful time. LwL is a place for all of us to find our individualist ways, respectively, to reveal, talk, discuss, rant, bellow… to ease our LE pains or stress.
LwL is a sanctuary, a truly Buddhistic temple for every Limerent/LO ghost here. Thanks to Dr L!
Well, Snow,
I had this suspicion that you didn’t mean a nice thing with it. Sorry if I seem to you to reheat old stuff again and again, the main thing is that I myself know that that’s not true.
I used this site to process my LEs and I think I came a very long way. In my experience it takes time and turning things over to heal. Maybe there are people who are able to switch it off with one click or make a clean cut, I’m not one of them I need to process. But I cannot expect other people to read that into my posts that are random and sporadic,of course, and they really have to bear with me.
So maybe I will resort to a journal again in the future as not to seem to be rehashing, and only answer to other posts if I feel like it. Or maybe it’s time to go on a break here as much as I will reduce contact with XLO, could be that it would be healthy for everyone.
Mila,
You are one of posters whose messages I read and care ever since I came to this place, because you care about every ghost here and have a nonjudgmental eyes for whatever cases and try to understand their points of views, with frankness. Honestly, I am unable to do what you’ve been doing.
Regardless all the details and realistic (changing or changed) situations, in my impression, two main themes linked all your messages: your instant or lasting reactions towards texts coming from and going to MFF, and his possible personality traits, thoughts and sentimentality. In that sense, they are a “leftover” merry-go-around.
Please feel free to process them here, and ignore my big mouth. But please bear in mind, every time you jot down anything in writing, they are reinforced in someways in your unconscious, which would in return affect your logical mind/thinking.
Unlike what many people think/believe, the Unconscious is awake working 24/7, it acts not only in dreams clearly, but also in background unnoticed, when our logical mind seems to be in “control.”
WHY would you even suspect that I meant something (not nice) in my pervious messages? No need to answer, I don’t mind your misunderstanding at all — refined being 80% Stoic now… 😊
Please tell me: does Imho have a SO? I thought she did not; is my ignorance so HUGE? 😱
Sincerely wish you’re feeling more peaceful every day and every hour! 🫂
Hi Snow,
I don’t agree, neither with the leftover-merrygoround nor with the bit about reinforcing the subconscious.
And yes, I think it’s judgmental and a bit nasty to write in a post to third person about me „heating up leftovers“ with an exasperated Emoji. You might not have meant it that way, but it came over this way.
I don’t want to fight and am not angry since I guess you didn’t mean it as mean as it sounded, and it’s natural that you are sometimes far from the spot since we are all so different and living such different lives.
I guess I‘ll take a bit of a time out here now though.
All the best for you!
Snow,
On your message to Mila, you include a question :
“Please tell me: does Imho have a SO? I thought she did not; is my ignorance so HUGE?”
I feel that it is for me to answer this one.
Yes, I have an important and long term SO. I am generally vague about my situation here on LwL for good reasons as I’m sure you understand , so you are forgiven for not recalling all my story.
My LO is long distance connected to my workplace. He is not a direct coworker but distant coworker I guess.
I may see him again at this year end, or it may not happen. so full on uncertainty at this time, not easy !
I shared this same story over a year ago here on LWL.
I met my LO last time f2f over a year ago now. In the lead up and in the aftermath I was all over the place and the LwL community helped me get through it.
So be prepared, if the f2f does take place soon then I’m gonna be here here again seeking advice probably.
What I’m trying to say is many (let’s be honest, most) of us limerents are (or have been) going in circles or more accurately in a snail shell of round and round but getting nearer to an ultimate exit.
(Can anyone remember who came up with this excellent Snail shell analagy ?)
It was me, Imho;)
Hi Mila,
I’m not taking any sides especially as Ive been away and trying to stay chilled out.
I would just say don’t let a single remark influence your posting here.
You receive many replies to your messages from across the LWL community, that tells you a lot about the engagement, care and empathy doesn’t it….
And hopefully those replies mostly help you in return and I’m sure the conversation also helps many others too, who post here (and those who are here but stay in the shadows)
Imho 😘
Mila,
I put the explanation right after emoji 😮💨 as *sigh* I was sighing and feeling compassion for your vexation. I mentioned to imho, because I know we two, along with several other, really care for your case, although in different styles perhaps.
I’m sorry for how you feel right now, and I know we are all very different in our mindset. I do not apologize for my frank opinions expressed in a sympathetic manner, which are not judgments but one perspective from different angle looking at the pink elephant. Or we say in COO, an “outsider” looking at an “insider” walking/struggling in a foggy mountain. You or anyone else certainly could agree or disagree with my understanding of how conscious or unconscious work, which needs to be verified by every individual.
As you rightfully noted, my intention meant good, but I’m aware that good intentions do not always necessary lead to intended “positive” results; I will just shot up my mouth in your case.
Wish you a speedy out of your LE and more peace, Mila 🕊️
Sorry to crash the party but as someone who has talked to you both (Mila and Snow) a fair bit these last couple of months, I hope you don’t mind.
Mila, I just know Snow didn’t mean you any harm. She is very much a fan of your responsible handling of your LE and the help you give the rest of us, as I have seen mentioned in many posts. She often uses colourful and non-literal language to describe things and occasionally it might not quite land.
You haven’t been afraid Mila to give me the odd wake up call or reality check when it seems I need it (always appreciated too – I am here to learn). What is clear I think to Snow and others who follow your posts, me included, is that agonising over texting behaviour between you and LO, is a recurring theme for you over many months, maybe longer. Despite the fact that none of us will meet in real life, we get quite invested in others’ stories and limerence recovery. Snow’s perspective is that the more we battle something, the harder it clings on. With me, she has said things like (as have you) “LaR don’t you ever find anything negative or unlikeable to say about your LO?”. The foundation for this is that as long as I keep up this internal battle of thinking everything about LO is great, I will remain in limbo. At a guess I think she feels similar about your texting with LO. As long as you make it a battle, your brain keeps up the battle ‘for sport’. We LwL friends really want to see you succeed in getting out the other side and worry that this battle over texting is what holds you back.
Your perspective of course – a totally reasonable one – is that you want to ramble or rant it out here to help process it. This place has – for me anyway – been a million times better than previous journalling of my LE because I have you lot to sense check me. Occasionally I get a total curveball of a response that prickles me at first, but then I think more ‘why did they say that?’. And I realise sometimes it’s because I am leaking stuff that I can’t see.
We are all in different boats, but in the same storm. We have much to offer each other. Peace in our times please if there is a way we can achieve that between you🕊
Hi Snow and Lim-a-Rant,
Thanks for your compassionate answers. Written stuff goes without any tone of voice or context, and it seems I interpreted it completely the wrong way. I still think it’s important to point out what came over offensive to me.
Please don’t shut up Snow, I know you mean good, but it might be good for me to shut up for a while.
It used to help me here, but at the moment it feels suddenly just like another field of tiring but necessary self-assertion.
In my work I have to do a lot of maneuvering between sensitive souls, I have to stay relaxed and neutral and benevolent all the time for the colleagues that are working under me.
I have to take a lot of „he didn’t mean it like that, don’t get upset“ or „listen to me, I have the only right opinion“ and have to assert myself without getting unfair or upset, while everyone else has more leeway in getting upset or unfair because it has less repercussions. So many people think they know best, and so many people don’t think before they express themselves how it would come over for the other person. Me included, probably.
My contact with LO is mainly by text, so naturally I write about texts. I appreciate you both worrying about me, but I still think you are completely not right concerning your assessment of my progress through writing about these texts.
But you both seem to not agree and then I feel I cannot keep writing freely here about it. It’s of course your right to think so, but then it’s also my right not to feel comfortable about it anymore.
This is not meant as a reproach, I just want to explain my reaction in detail. I appreciate you very much and of course there‘s peace🙏🏻but here I allow myself to be a bit egotistical and just pull back when I want to.
Now that came over wrong too.
What I want to say is, it’s natural that if you post on an internet community site, there will naturally be opinions, and people cannot guess if you want advice this time, or a pat on the head or just nothing beyond „uh-huh, ok“.
So I’m wrong in posting here when I only want to process and am not ready for someone interpreting it in a way that I don’t agree to. Basically, it’s my fault for posting and then expecting only answers fitting my own opinion.
But at the moment it seems I need to go my own way here in handling my almost dead LE, and then it’s not the right thing to post here at the moment.
Apologies to all I might have upset, I do appreciate this site and posting here, but I guess I‘ll stop updating unless I really want advice. My bad.
Hi Mila,
You should feel absolutely that you can just spew out your thoughts here. Repeatedly if that”s what you need. These are not said as empty words (I don’t do empty words) but if I could nominate a community contributor of the year, it would be you. I got more from talking to you as I went through the darkest part of my LE earlier this year, about how to start moving on, than from anyone. So this is your place to take something back, however you want that.
Please, please don’t feel you shouldn’t write about texting him again. As you say, it is a mainly text based relationship, so that’s natural.
Ideas FWIW – if you just want responses from specific posters, mention their names / ‘call them in’ directly. If I don’t want advice just put a disclaimer in like that – I sometimes put “not asking for anyone to solve this, just telling it how it is”, “please leave aside …” etc.
The other side of this is that you should feel absolutely that you can pull back from LwL, as a break or more permanently. But this should be only because/when it is right for you, not when something said has upset you. And also if you do stick around, that you don’t feel obliged to write replies in 5 minutes and have everyone rely on you as ‘agony sister’.
Certain people end up always getting that ‘relied on’ role. In my real life I find I am treated a bit like this. My mother lives her life being relied on totally by others and doing little for herself. I would hazard a guess (slap
me or throw a brownie at me if I’m wrong) that your life gets like this. I hear you so much about how you have to be at your work – smiling and balanced and calm and there to solve other people’s problems, mediate etc. I say this from a place of empathy as my working life is much the same.
LwL could feel like an extra pressure like that if we’re not careful – another way to be relied on and obliged. My SO (obviously) doesn’t know I post on here and so apart from odd days, I cram it into early mornings and late nights (I am in basically the same time zone as you) – I expect that’s all the same for you. I recognise all those challenges. It can be hard to make the time.
So that my thoughts are balanced from what I wrote last night, let me explain where I do understand you have progressed to. You have let go of the limerence and for the first time in ten years are limerence free! This alone is massive!! Being here helped you do that. You have spent time working out that the friendship you want with him is a lower level than you thought when in the height of LE. You know for yourself what text-based relationship (less frequent, less shallow, warmer) would work with him to move forwards. The annoyance that is coming across in your posts is 1. with him, 2. with yourself for feeling annoyed with him, not more neutral (especially when you bring his possible neurodiversities into your thoughts). You are frustrated that he doesn’t, or can’t, understand the text based relationship the same, and that he carries on pinging you day to day for validation despite the fact you aren’t his SO. It is frustrating because it is going in a loop, and not the loop you want. Sorry if I have interpreted anything wrong there.
NOW – I am going to be true to my word. I *do* have advice and suggestions on exactly what I’d do next in your situation. But you haven’t asked for it, so I’m not going to give it unless you say explicitly that you want it.
Mila you’re a great member of this forum. If stepping back is right for you, do it, but only for your own reasons. The other bits can be got past. And if you do stay or come back, then do that on your terms too.
Hi Lim-a-Rant,
You really had me laughing out loud right now. I recognize a master at work- nicely built up, an accurate summary of my last progress and then dangling the promise of advice but not revealing, a true cliffhanger!
Of course I‘m curious now, dish it out!
Snows post I took offence from wasn’t advice and it wasn’t for me, it was speaking to another person about me, that was part of what offended me, although I understand now that it wasn’t meant by her as condescending as it sounded.
So I’d be happy to hear your advice so that I can disagree with it and sulk (only kidding).
Mila,
Ha!! Yeah I can craft an argument sometimes!
What I’d do is be really brave and communicate to him why the volume of texting every day is difficult. Don’t (obviously) mention the now-done limerence, but more work with that you’re busy, are juggling a lot in work and life and struggling to respond so regularly due to other pressures (and maybe also struggling to know what to say, but I am less sure about that bit). Then in the same message very clearly emphasise that you *do* still want to be friends and how your texting relationship could change for the better to make that work. Set out your stall, regain control of it for yourself. If that means a spell of NC or that he sulks and doesn’t initiate contact, then just initiate it yourself as and when you are comfortable. If he is worth keeping, he’ll eventually understand and come to a compromise with you about it.
Or – just don’t reply for a while (I mean several days, maybe weeks, more than hours – wherever you want the frequency to land) and let him get the hint that way. Slow down the frequency so that it reaches an equilibrium that you’re happy with. If you think he doesn’t have the understanding capacity to think over and take on board the route above, try this one instead.
I am always wary of dishing out advice to others. I don’t have the full detail or the feelings of people involved, so I dislike the idea you might do anything based on my suggestion and then it backfire. It’s your life. Please feel free to hit me back up in a reply with any reasons why you think any or all of that wouldn’t work, if you do feel that! I am happy to dialogue with you about it, or not.
(I very nearly auto-completed this message with my email address instead of my ‘name’, and blew my cover. That’s what I mean about not worrying about rushing replies!).
Hi Lim-a-Rant,
„so I dislike the idea you might do anything based on my suggestion and then it backfire.“
Yeah, I will sue you for sure if it won’t work!
No, thank you very much, it’s very good advice and the second is the approach I’m taking at the moment anyway.
For the first, I’m not sure if that wouldn’t backfire. He is not at all used to serious talk about stuff like that and would maybe take it as a reproach or that I want to end the friendship, no matter how I express myself.
Also, I tried to initiate open talk about our friendship or his work situation or whatever in the last year with almost no response, I don’t feel like initiating honest talk again by announcing something like that, he might feel pressurized again or whatever, most certainly I won’t get a response where I can see if he understands what I mean or is hurt.
That’s frankly too much hassle for me right now.
He can always ask why I reduce contact so much, I certainly did ask him sometimes when he didn’t respond for a while back when I was limerent, so it shouldn’t be too awkward for him to ask if he cares.
Maybe his neurodivergence won’t let him? But then that‘s how it is.
He hasn’t texted since Friday evening, my responses to both the news about the business trip and the music link being appropriate but not enthusiastic, I think he noticed and maybe he decided himself to take the foot off the texting pedal now. I feel quite good with that, and I follow the advice from Bewitched and Imho just not to worry about this blasted trip now.
Thanks for that, Lim-a-Rant.
I might still not update here like I used to, because now I really honestly think it might have been too much.
@Mila,
We have all credited or referred each others’ points of views in our posts with/to others. To me, it’s an indirect way to thank and appreciate those views that have positively affected me or others in our shared journey to curb/remove limerence — “against the same storm in our individual boat”.
You’re right that in my post to Imho I did not try to give advice to you (I already did directly to you prior to that: going NC on texting for just A WHILE, but you said you could not do it for fearing hurting your MFF). Seeing Imho (and Bewitched) as your close, helping friends here, I felt totally at ease to express my sincere sorrow to Imho (I was sure she felt the same for you) with a “Sigh” emoji: Mila is on the burner again. That’s all it was.
I’m glad to see a highly diplomatic hand/mouth (I agree with LaR’s approaches) is more effectively helping you. Sorry, I lack communication and English skills in general, in addition to the cultural differences between the West and East (I grew up used to taking effective bitter herbs/medicines without ever putting any sugar in them)…. As you see, when I meant one thing, it was often taken as another, thus I’m more than often in a no-man’s land, which is okay, I assure you. ☺️
In this faceless ghost land, with so many different personalities and cultural/individual backgrounds, misunderstandings are natural and ought to be accepted as a “norm/default”. What counts most importantly should be INTENTION. Our shared LE pains come from our individual limerence, not from any ghosts here. Despite DrL and most of us try to help each other, the ultimate work/effort and healing process come from within each individual “ghost”.
Like Trifles, when I came here first, I thought it’s like a Wall, DrL posts his feature articles first, then everyone pin up their reaction posts on the Wall, read some relevant ones, and leave returning to their own struggles with their realistic LE. I was not asking or expecting any advice, nor thought my opinions would matter a bit. I did not realize it was a community (which I was quite “allergic” due to COO), in which there are posters heartily caring about other ones, until I encountered Call me Cordelia and Nisor who did not give up her efforts to help everyone with her big heart. Later, I realized that my careless ramblings had inadvertently carried some “responsibilities”, even turning some ghost upside down or inside out… 🙃
Mila, thank you for letting me know why you felt offended by my caring intend. I will be careful with my cultural or analogical references in the future if I open my big mouth again.
Hope you feeling calmer and better. 🫂
❤️ 🐌!
@Imho,
Thank you for clarifying your situation. Truthfully, I don’t remember I ever knew your full story. I came in when you were talking about meeting your LO in a trip abroad and how it went with his SO around. I know clearly that your LO is a long-distance colleague, and you missed another conference where he would be.
Your SO was rarely mentioned and you just mentioned your mother during your “retreat”, so I took it for granted that you did not have one. Sorry about the error.
Hi Imho! Hope that the time off really helped you, and that you’re doing well. No pressure to update!
Hi ABCD ! I appreciate your reply very much and the community here.
I’m so glad to read how well you are doing too.
Gaining new experiences in new places and meeting new people really brought me perspective and re-balanced me.
Thank you.
Hey, just wanted to say thanks to everyone who wrote to me up above – so many good words of support and good ideas. I really appreciate you all! I’m not able to see my therapist anymore so I have literally no one in my life to talk to about my limerence, and it’s a pretty lonely feeling sometimes, so its really nice to feel heard and cared for here even if I’m not a very active member these days. Thank you.
I don’t really think I’d want to go on antidepressants. I’m not truly depressed, and just taking them to numb emotions doesn’t really sound like a good thing. I started thinking about it because I was just feeling pretty down and anxious recently and one of my patients was telling me about how they stopped their SSRI because they didn’t like being numbed to emotions, and I started thinking like hey, that actually sounds like it could be nice, I’ve spent 40+ years feeling strong emotions all the time, some of them not too pleasant, and it sounds kinda nice to just take a break from them for awhile. But not really, because I do feel that it’s better to experience everything fully, the good and the bad, and also I wouldn’t want to restrict my positive emotions like love for my SO and joy with my kids. And also, I really love sex, so I probably wouldn’t ever actually try a medication that causes ED for a lot of guys 🙂
I was thinking last night about how much I’m using limerence for mood regulation and how much my moods are tied to other people. When I posted a couple of days ago, I was feeling really down and upset, and it’s because my LO had been kind of cold and distant for a couple of weeks, and my SO had also been going through a little funk for a couple weeks, and I felt emotionally disconnected from both of them. Now my SO has been back to her more happy self for the past few days and her dark cloud is lifted, and then yesterday started with my LO texting me first thing in the morning and we chatted playfully by text all day and then had a long phone call after work and made plans to talk again this afternoon, and everything felt really nice and warm and connected with her again, and my mood’s been wonderful ever since (it also turned out that her withdrawal had nothing to do with me this time and was all about some issues she was facing at home and some mental health stuff she was experiencing)
I know a lot has been written on this site about the pitfalls of using limerence for mood regulation, and I’m definitely living it! I’ve managed to get myself into a situation where my mood and mental wellbeing depends largely on the mood of not one but two women, one of who has recurring depression and the other who has borderline and possibly bipolar 2. Yikes!! And then even when things are going well with both of them, I feel pretty good but still experience the nagging sense of anxiety that LO will leave me eventually, and also the frustration of never being able to have as much of her as I really want. I’m in this place with LO now where we have a real relationship that’s deep enough that severing the connection hurts a lot, but also not close enough to be fully satisfying.
But otherwise I’m just doing the best I can and I do have a lot of good things going on in my life – these days I’m sharing a couple of nice bonding activities with my older kid (including playing in a little rock band together), I’m volunteering at my younger kid’s school every week, having a lot of nice times with SO, exercising every day, eating well, involved in interesting things at work… I’ve also been intentionally trying to build up a few other friendships that I’d let lapse over the past years and been trying to increase social connections with more people. So there’s a lot of good, and a lot of purposeful living, and I guess I can just tolerate the waves of negative emotions when they come and try to remind myself that they’ll pass in time.
“One of who has recurring depression and the other who has borderline and possibly bipolar 2. Yikes!!”
I’m glad you’re seemingly doing well LiS, but you zeroed in on your Ladies’
mental issues. I hope the weather stays dry because that’s a very slippery slope.
Checking in to log my progress.
[to recap: I’m limerent for an ex-intern who waves an armload of red flags that I was colourblind to.
And I’m happily married.
I refer to my LO as MPDG.
Fortunately we are now 4 months NC.
Unfortunately, MPDG is keeping her options open and may return as a colleague when her traineeship is completed next year. But that prospect is extremely unlikely, and in any event, beyond my control.]
Most of my limerent fantasies are about disclosure, in the hope of mutual feelings.
I totally relate to Sir Marcus, nodding my head at each of those bulletpoints.
I too have a strong desire for disclosure.
In my case I do not need to do this.
I *know*, without having her confirm it, that MPDG is not experiencing limerence, from her behavioural cues.
Therefore any disclosure would be self destructive, especially in the hands of someone who has no qualms about flirting with a married man.
From a “dating perspective”, I now see many of MPDG’s intimate interactions with me as a series of playful “shit tests”.
ie boundary-pushing exercises, to determine if a potential suitor is confident enough to be her lover, or be relegated to “orbiter”.
In my case, it’s “neither”, since in most cases I refused to play along.
Anyhow, I’m now at the point where the limerent highs have disappeared.
For example, I remember that it felt amazing when she hugged me, but I no longer recall the actual feeling.
I don’t get lows either, but just feel kind of numb and demotivated at times.
I think that habit forming helps here, routines to get through the day.
I know also that I must try and break routines too, since my limerence was likely due to the need to spice up my life.
Working on it.
Now, whenever MPDG’s shadow sneaks back into my mind, I tell her “shoo, your work is done here.”
Ghostzoned,
From a “dating perspective”, I now see many of MPDG’s intimate interactions with me as a series of playful “shit tests”.
ie boundary-pushing exercises, to determine if a potential suitor is confident enough to be her lover, or be relegated to “orbiter”.
In my case, it’s “neither”, since in most cases I refused to play along.”
The ethical issue aside that you are married (I’m assuming she’s not), if she was looking to hook up with your or even go as far as to have a side relationship, how else is she going to determine if you’re willing by not testing the waters a little bit and seeing how you respond? If, once she determined you weren’t going to hook up with her, she put you in the “orbiter” category (if I’m understanding you correctly) … meaning she used you for ego validation, that’s not a nice thing to do. But since it sounds like you put up a boundary that hooking up wasn’t going to happen … your options are to continue to flirt with each other but not go further or take things down a level and just interact with each other as co-workers.
It sounds like she picked some kind of variation of the first option.
Thanks for your reply, Marcia.
Your explanation makes perfect sense, the necessity of pushing boundaries when they haven’t been defined, especially in complex dynamics involving marriage.
She did ask some questions involving my SO, tangentially about what might be tolerated (nothing quite so blatant as whether or not we have an open marriage, but specific queries eg whether or not I could give MPDG a ride home, for example).
I’ve long ago given up trying to understand women, and just accept that they will do things that perplex me.
Yes, MPDG definitely thrives on attention.
I’m sure that I gave off mixed hot/cold signals as well, otherwise she wouldn’t have had the need to test me.
Ghostzoned,
“She did ask some questions involving my SO, tangentially about what might be tolerated (nothing quite so blatant as whether or not we have an open marriage, but specific queries eg whether or not I could give MPDG a ride home, for example).”
She asked you if your wife would be ok with you giving her a ride home?
“I’ve long ago given up trying to understand women, and just accept that they will do things that perplex me.”
I can’t definitively tell you what she was doing. Some people are very flirtatious and like to go “right up the line.” Some go over the line a bit, and then hop back the other direction for plausible deniability that the line was crossed.
Flirtation doesn’t necessarily mean they want something to happen. But sometimes it does.
Personally, had it been me and I wanted something to happen, I would have come out and said something. The best approach with men, I have found, is to be pretty direct because they don’t pick up on subtlety. 🙂 However, that would depend on a lot of factors. Do I think you had left the door open for me to say something? Were our interactions intensifying in that direction? Was the moment right?
It’s not something I would just blurt out.
Hello All,
I’m new here and could do with some wisdom.
I’ve worked with Ben for the past four years, but over the last two years, something shifted between us. Ben started flirting with me, and though I wasn’t attracted to him at first, over time, I began to feel drawn to him. It started with little comments, like joking about going on a “hot date” when we passed in the corridor, or playful remarks about my appearance. He complimented me, told me I didn’t look my age, and even shared personal details about his health, including that he had prostate surgery and wouldn’t be able to perform sexually. Despite this, my attraction to him grew.
What started as light flirting turned into something deeper, though we’ve never acknowledged it directly. Ben visits my office frequently, always with an excuse—using the photocopier or asking work-related questions he could easily ask someone else. His presence has become a regular part of my workday, and I’ve found myself longing for these moments. He often engages in intense eye contact with me, and there are times when his eyes seem to search mine, like he’s trying to read my emotions. These moments feel deeply intimate, and I’ve caught myself feeling high afterward, almost euphoric. But then, not long after, he’ll mention his wife, casually dropping comments like “when I met my wife” or talking about their wedding anniversary. Every time he does this, it feels like the air has been knocked out of me.
There’s this constant push-pull dynamic between us. When I try to distance myself emotionally—either by not engaging as much or by working from home—Ben becomes visibly anxious. He’ll come to my office repeatedly, almost desperately seeking my attention until I give in and engage with him again. But once I’m back to being warm toward him, he pulls away, mentioning his wife as if to remind me—and himself—of the boundaries he can’t cross. It’s a cycle that’s been going on for two years, and I’ve been left feeling emotionally exhausted by it.
Recently, I’ve learned that Ben is likely taking redundancy and leaving the workplace soon. The news hit me like a ton of bricks, triggering intense feelings of grief and loss. I’ve spent so much time thinking about him, analyzing every interaction, and anticipating his visits that the thought of him being gone feels unbearable. It’s like the emotional highs and lows I’ve experienced over the past two years are coming to a painful end, and I’m struggling to let go. The anticipation of his departure is filling me with dread, and I can’t help but feel devastated at the thought of losing this connection, even though I know it’s been causing me emotional pain.
I’m trying to prepare myself for life without him—telling myself that he’ll be gone and that I’ll have to move on. But my heart is clinging to the hope that maybe, in some way, he feels the same. That maybe he’s grieving too, even if he’s not showing it. Despite knowing that this dynamic isn’t healthy for me, part of me still doesn’t want to let go. Has anyone come through the other side of this and can offer advice?
Georgia,
Welcome to the Lwl forum. We are glad to have you.
From your post it appears you are exhibiting signs of being limerent for your Co-Worker. You definitely are not the first one. I am a 53 year old divorced male, who became limerent for a female Co-Worker almost half my age. Still can’t really say I’ve come completely out on the other side either, so I’m probably not the best one here who can offer advice.
It is common to become limerent for people who are unavailable. In your case, Ben is married so it probably adds to some of the allure you are feeling for him. You are experiencing all the roller coaster emotions associated with limerence, which can become mentally exhausting and draining. Couple that with the dread of him possibly leaving the office soon is putting your emotions in overdrive. Being that he seeks you out often and you engage with him is what’s keeping this flame burning so fiercely within you. Disclosure of your feelings to him will probably not make matters better and could make them worse. Yet this has been something going on between you both for over the past two years. Obviously you’ve developed a friendship there, so to dissolve it somewhat will be difficult.
However there is no happy ending here because Ben is married. From your post it doesn’t seem like he is crossing too many boundaries and simply enjoys the rapport he has with you. The casual flirting doesn’t seem much more than that, but I guess I get how that might mess with your head a little. That damn eye-contact too is very telling. (I was very much fooled by it at the height of my LE.) You do not mention if you have a SO or are married yourself, but I feel like you have personal issues going on that are causing your feelings for him to be so inflated. People become limerent for others when they are lacking something. In my case, I became limerent a few years ago when a couple relationships I had fell apart. Not to mention my divorce from over 10 years ago, a Daughter that despises me for it, and then the loss of my Mother. It was like the perfect storm to become limerent. I’ve posted all over this forum, in a number of past topics of discussion.
My best advice here is to simply not get your hopes up. He might enjoy your friendship but it may just only be that. It’s you and your feelings that are banking on the hope something will happen. This isn’t necessarily evil, but you do need to keep things in-check here so that they do not become deceitful and evil. Especially since he is married. If he hasn’t stepped too far out of line in all this time, why make things even harder now, if they don’t have to be?
I hope that one of our leading Ladies here will find this and step up. Lovisa, Marcia, Bewitched, and Mila come to mind so I hope one of them find this. In the meantime, please keep reading in the topics and engaging with us for as long as you need to.
Hi Georgia, welcome.
I can’t speak specifically about your situation, my LO has not exited my life so I am not aware of what my emotions would be in your same situation. But I can tell you that it would seem the pattern here is that if forced separation happens, and no contact ensues, the recovery can go quite quick. There have been a number of people here who seem to experience their most difficult LE emotions in the time leading up to losing their LO only to feel real relief once it actually happens.
I am hoping this is the case for you. I would encourage you to embrace the fact that your LO will be exiting your life. I don’t know you, but I suspect LO, who is unavailable but takes up so much emotional energy, may be holding you back relationally? Think of all that energy being returned to you. This may allow you the freedom to move on and live more purposefully now.
Hopefully Mila responds. She seems to be the most recent who went through something similar with her LO and as of today she would tell you she is basically over her LE.
And if Lovisa responds, she can tell you about putting your energy and focus into other things to distract you from the LE turmoil.
Georgia,
I can’t add a lot to MJ and Speedwagon’s brilliant replies, but (also from a male point of view of someone who is in Ben’s position),
I don’t think he is being that kind to you to veer between begging for your attention and then dropping his wife into conversation to remind you of boundaries. It’s Ok that he has those boundaries but shouldn’t be doing the other part as well and then shoving them in your face.
I agree with Speedwagon that using his departure as a clean break, probably no contact (hard as it would be at first) and moving on to other pursuits might help you heal the fastest. It will fill you with dread but others here will tell you it works.
All the very best 🙂
“ I don’t think he is being that kind to you to veer between begging for your attention and then dropping his wife into conversation to remind you of boundaries.”
True, but I doubt that he is doing it intentionally. I suspect he feels conflicted. He might be “leaking” his attraction and then correcting himself.
Hi Georgia,
welcome! I saw my name mentioned. I‘m sorry for what you go through. I think for this guy you might be a very nice and attractive person he works with and where he gets a daily dose of validation as an attractive male from, but it seems he wouldn’t risk his marriage for these pleasant feelings. He might have no idea what he‘s putting you through. I agree that it’s not very attractive behavior to flirt and then mention the wife as a stop signal, it looks plain egotistical and offturning.
He might not do it on purpose though, maybe he‘s just thoughtless, or he wants to pretend to himself that it’s all aboveboard and innocent – just friends, so why not mention my wife.
Still, he doesn’t want to commit or acknowledge anything, he wants to have pleasant banter with you but not really more.
So I guess the loss that in your mind is unbearable and huge might in the end prove not to be that big- something you might see when limerence dialed down a bit.
I fell limerent for a friend and co-worker when he announced that he would probably leave and then there was uncertainty for a long stretch of time if he would leave or not- pure agony for me. I couldn’t imagine working without him, I thought he was my soulmate and a unique friend whose loss I wouldn’t be able to bear. Now I see that he really is a nice guy who is a loyal friend, but not at all the ideal friend I had in my limerent mind, and I can live without him very well.
I guess it‘s the limerent habits that make this guy so unique and special in your eyes and gave him this halo of something precious and special that will be lost forever, it’s not his unique personality. All in your brain. Without your limerent brain he would just be an ordinary guy with flaws. That’s all I can say, not wanting to guess at his motives and not being sure what might work best for you in your current phase.
I wish you the best, maybe someone else who is currently still limerent might help better since it’s hard to judge what works best for you just now in this painful stage.
I do think that his leaving is a blessing in disguise. It might hurt now, but it is a way forward. Imagine keep working with him , him always leaning in and pulling back. What a waste of time,no? I do believe that it might be in the end very good for you that he leaves. He would never leave his wife and that’s it, you would just be tortured by his ongoing flirting behavior.
I‘m too blunt , sorry. I do feel with you, having been there.
I might add that for me it was important 1. to grieve for a while – imagined loss or real, a loss is to be grieved when it is felt, because the feeling is real. 2. to set a proper goodbye-let go- point in time with a last goodbye dinner and a gift that showed him how much I appreciated our time working together. After that I had the feeling of closure, for myself.
I have no idea if that helps since the situations are different, my LO really was a friend and the families/SOs knew each other and were all at the goodbye dinner etc.
But maybe you can think about what would give you a feeling of closure when he leaves.
Thank you all for your welcome and thoughts on my situation.
You’re right (and I know this deep down) that this guy isn’t special – he can’t be because I didn’t feel anything for him for two years until I noticed he was attracted to me.
There’s a lot of escapism in this situation – as much as I hate the lows, I’m addicted to the highs. It makes a routine boring job more enjoyable. However, that distraction is going to be gone for good soon. I’m hoping you guys are right and the anticipatory grief is worse than the actual grief of realising he is gone for good.
Georgia x
Georgia
The LO I had was also a co-worker. Our roles were similar. I am married and she was single. Recently divorced when she joined the workforce. Similarly like you I felt nothing special for her at the start. She was just a really nice lady. Then about a year into her starting the job I was assigned to a 5 month project that I had no choice in where I worked with her one on one. And that is when the limerence developed.
I can understand your his actions. Because I did the same. I justified and pushed boundaries but didn’t cross any major lines. But there was certainly behavior on my part I would not SO to witness when I was around LO.
But I also believe that LO recognized by behavior as a “crush” and was a very morally good willed woman that didn’t do anything to encourage it, but possibly also not to discourage it. I would buy her favorite coffee from her favorite shop or always bring what she liked to the office for breakfast. Go wherever she wanted to go for lunch. Stuff like that.
Her last day at the job (she quit to go to another job) was June 3, 2022 and I haven’t seen her or spoken to her since. So I know how the loss of those incredible feelings can make you feel empty and alone. But it does get better. I am in a lot better place than I was to start. No intrusive thoughts anymore. I rarely find myself daydreaming. And it has been, around 6 months, since I last looked at her social media. Believe me it will get better.
One thing that helped me during bad periods is online gaming with our sons. We have one at home and one living on his own. Immersing myself in my hobbies helped me keep my mind occupied on things other than LO.
Good luck on your journey to recover. There is a lot of incredible people with very helpful insights, as you have already seen.
My current LO has feelings for me but makes comments to others about his SO that make it clear to me that he won’t be ditching her for me… But I don’t think he means any harm by it. We both talk about our families now and then; it’s hard not to, when they’re an integral part of your life. Your LO could have a crush on you but not intend to cross boundaries. In any case, the impending separation should eventually break the limerence.
I was once limerent for my boss–I just posted about this, I believe in the latest coffeehouse thread. We flirted all the time (this was long before the Metoo era, lol). After he quit, I was in an awful state. But the limerence finally faded. Doesn’t mean I forgot about him. Recently I found old diary entries about him and looked him up on Facebook. 60 years old and still has the cutest face and boyish grin. I almost could’ve forgotten my current LO and crushed on him again. 🙂 But it’s long in the past, a pleasant memory.
Welcome Georgia! You have come to the right place! I haven’t read the other responses yet, but I suspect you were given great support and advice.
First, I want you to understand that you and Ben are triggering feel-good hormones in each other. You are probably both somewhat addicted to those feel-good hormones which means the separation will feel somewhat like a drug withdrawal. I’m sorry, but that is the reality of this situation.
The good news is that there are other ways to access those hormones. I don’t know what you like to do, but I will tell you how I distracted myself from my LOs when I was trying to come off of my LO-highs. It’s been a while since I was in your position, but I’ll try to remember some of the stuff I did.
Running
Playing Candy Crush
Engaging in conversations with interesting people
Getting involved in the LwL community
Cryotherapy
Ice baths
Going from the hot tub to jumping into a cold swimming pool and back
Hiking
Gardening in an area that is infested with black widows
Pouring all my sexual energy into my relationship with my SO
Strengthening my healthy relationships, especially relationships with likable peers
If I think of something else, I will add it.
There are two things that I really want to address because they are common mistakes that us limerents make.
1. Try not to daydream about your LO.
2. Try not to disclose your feelings of attraction to your LO.
I’m glad you’re here, Georgia! We can walk this journey with you.
I read through the other responses and I must say that I am impressed! Isn’t it amazing that Georgia has a community of new friends who are ready to lift her up and walk a difficult journey with her? Wow! What an amazing group!
Georgia, I hope you comment some more. Please tell us if you have a significant other so that we have an idea of how to help you. If you don’t, Marcia would be a very helpful resource for you.
Best wishes!
Hello Georgia. I am sorry to hear you are having this conflicting gamut of emotions. I have gone through all that you are going through right now – the highs lows, the pushes and pulls. I guess the bottom line is that your LO has an SO, so it would be a good idea to put this LE behind you. Easier said than done, right?
Though it may not seem so now, with no/reduced contact, you WILL feel better. Right now, this uncertainty (does he like me, like I like him) may be driving you nuts, but, in my opinion, the uncertainty is better than something like disclosure, which can have devastating effects for the both of you.
My other learned friends have given some fantastic advice that you may follow. We wish you the very best!
Hi Georgia,
In answer to your question, yes I and many others have come through the other side of a workplace LE. You are very much not alone in this, and it will get better with time. Keep reading through this site as so much will resonate and make you feel better.
In my case, I was the one married and my LO was made redundant. We’d formed a very intense relationship, but as she was considerably younger than me, it was somewhat paternal and romantic – a really complex mix. I knew she wasn’t relationship material, but what I wanted more than anything was some reciprocation. That she felt the same way about me as I did with her. All the evidence seemed to suggest it did, but I had to hear it from her.
Eventually my SO said that it was “her or me” and thankfully I had enough sense left to know that it was LO that had to go. The redundancy was like a blessing, creating the opportunity for that to happen. I helped her find a new job somewhere else, she left and I purged the office of all traces of her. It took me a long time to stop thinking of her and gain a sense of normality again – maybe 12-18m after she’d left. We actually saw each other 4 years later and it was fine – I was at peace and didn’t feel in danger of falling back. I did stop short of taking up her offer of regular coffees, as my hard won freedom was not going to be risked that easily!
I hope that helps. Keep posting and working it through. The limerence is likely sending you a message that some part of your life needs fixing and Ben has highlighted it for you. Once he’s gone and you’ve grieved the loss, the next step is figuring out what that was.
@Georgia,
Welcome to the Lwl forum. We are glad to have you.
From your post it appears you are exhibiting signs of being limerent for your Co-Worker. You definitely are not the first one. I am a 53 year old divorced male, who became limerent for a female Co-Worker almost half my age. Still can’t really say I’ve come completely out on the other side either, so I’m probably not the best one here who can offer advice.
It is common to become limerent for people who are unavailable. In your case, Ben is married so it probably adds to some of the allure you are feeling for him. You are experiencing all the roller coaster emotions associated with limerence, which can become mentally exhausting and draining. Couple that with the dread of him possibly leaving the office soon is putting your emotions in overdrive. Being that he seeks you out often and you engage with him is what’s keeping this flame burning so fiercely within you. Disclosure of your feelings to him will probably not make matters better and could make them worse. Yet this has been something going on between you both for over the past two years. Obviously you’ve developed a friendship there, so to dissolve it somewhat will be difficult.
However there is no happy ending here because Ben is married. From your post it doesn’t seem like he is crossing too many boundaries and simply enjoys the rapport he has with you. The casual flirting doesn’t seem much more than that, but I guess I get how that might mess with your head a little. That damn eye-contact too is very telling. (I was very much fooled by it at the height of my LE.) You do not mention if you have a SO or are married yourself, but I feel like you have personal issues going on that are causing your feelings for him to be so inflated. People become limerent for others when they are lacking something. In my case, I became limerent a few years ago when a couple relationships I had fell apart. Not to mention my divorce from over 10 years ago, a Daughter that despises me for it, and then the loss of my Mother. It was like the perfect storm to become limerent. I’ve posted all over this forum, in a number of past topics of discussion.
My best advice here is to simply not get your hopes up. He might enjoy your friendship but it may just only be that. It’s you and your feelings that are banking on the hope something will happen. This isn’t necessarily evil, but you do need to keep things in-check here so that they do not become deceitful and evil. Especially since he is married. If he hasn’t stepped too far out of line in all this time, why make things even harder now, if they don’t have to be?
I hope that one of our leading Ladies here will find this and step up. Lovisa, Marcia, Bewitched, and Mila come to mind so I hope one of them find this. In the meantime, please keep reading in the topics and engaging with us for as long as you need to.
Hi Snow,
(tired of scrolling, I just write a new post)
I‘m not at all upset anymore, I do understand now what you meant, it’s sometimes hard to guess the right intention in written words when my mindset is completely elsewhere and vulnerable. Thanks for understanding and elaborating, let’s shake hands on that 🤝 and go on rowing our respective boats amiably next to each other!
A deal! 🤝
Hello Snow. Sorry, I am responding to your message here. I could not find a reply option below your message.
Thanks for sharing your insight about expecting the worst case scenario for LO interactions. It sounds very interesting.
Currently, I am okay with however any LO interaction will go, if at all it happens. If they are warm and fuzzy, that’s fine. If they are not, that’s fine too.
I am right now in a state of mind where LO thoughts do not bother me much. I’ll take it as a good sign.
Will keep you all updated, thanks!