Time for another visit to the LwL virtual coffeehouse, this time with a big advertising hoarding in the doorway!
As a thank you to everyone who pre-orders the book, I’m releasing some bonus chapters on some of the hardest, but commonest, limerence dilemmas.
These are:
- Unrequited limerence
- Limerence for a mentor
- Limerence for a co-worker
- Limerence for a therapist
- Limerence for someone who is married
Anyone who buys the book ahead of the release date will get exclusive access to this additional material (including audio version).
So, if you’d like to claim your bonus chapters, please fill in the Smitten pre-order bonuses form:
For anyone who hasn’t ordered yet, here are links to the UK and US editions on Amazon:
The UK release is a few weeks away now, so excitement is mounting!
OK, that’s it from me this week – an unabashed advert.
The floor is yours, for chatting about all things limerence!
I am feeling worse than ever. I feel I have back-slid 100%. Everything I have learned and applied about limerence seems to have vanished. Despite my having a pretty good intellectual understanding of limerence, emotionally I have slid back to where I was months ago.
Intellectually I am aware of LO’s many shortcomings; in fact, he doesn’t even have that many good qualities. He is inattentive, irritable, and has little time for me. I suppose I am lucky that he doesn’t string me along, because that would make everything worse.
I guess I will just go back and start re-reading and watching the videos again. Not sure what else to do.
Hi Norma!
Hang in there! You’re just having a bit of a set back, it’s par for the course.
I’ve had many.
Has something stressful happened lately?
If I have something going on it would set me back like I didn’t learn anything.
My LO was a complete jerk and it still pi**es me off when I think about it!
Even though we KNOW intellectually that Limerence is so utterly ridiculous, our brains keep looking for “reward” (silly brains)
Hope you read my post, it might help.
(Hugs)
@Norma
Just try and do one nice thing for yourself today, you deserve it!
To Anna:
Nothing particularly stressful happened. I have a lot of ups and downs with my health, and I think when my health takes a downturn, it’s harder to keep my mind off LO.
I took your advice and did something nice for myself.
Thank you for your kind words.
Hi Norma,
Do you have daily physical exercises? Do you have other friends whom you could visit and chat with? Do you have some old hobbies or wish to learn some new ones? If I remember correctly, you mentioned that you’re somewhat fragile, which makes it more important for appropriate exercises or physical therapies. If we’re not in healthy shape, we can’t expect that our mind strong and emotions stable.
Without engaging activities on your own, it’s extremely hard or impossible to take the mind of your LO or beat up this LE— the most unavailable kind in the world! It’s simply FUTILE and psychologically “unhealthy” to expect friendship-affection from your LO, you can’t change anyone’s sexual/gender orientation! If a girl/woman in LE with me, I’d “kick her a thousand miles away” — I don’t need or want anyone’s validation or unwanted friendship.
I had a girlfriend who claimed the only grand “love” she ever felt (after her canceled engagement) was for her gay roommate (thought it was safe to roommate with him). Then, she kept “nagging” him for his unavailable affection for her. Eventually, he was driven “crazy” and moved out to his boyfriend. Then, her LE for him died eventually. She’s married now.
Your suffering remains me what she told me, and back then, I had no idea what LE is and could neither understand her struggles nor help her in anyway I mention this is to support your NC — the only way to get over your LE, which would cause a lot of pain for a short/some, but it’s ONLY solution I see in your situation. For any kind of NC pain, you’ll just have to watch them, stay with them, and keep express them here.
I found this YT for you, if she can do it at 92, anyone can!
https://youtu.be/UdXQG478g_w?si=wvYX6dVPEnMAZzSM — Takeshita Mika (91 years old) Secrets of a fitness trainer/instructor from Japan. She only began her exercise at age of 65.
Hope you keep and get strong!
To Snowphoenix: Thank you for that kind message. I do the best I can to stay active and to keep my mind off LO. When I’m able to be busy, I seem to do okay. I have health problems which limit me. When I am feeling too poorly to do much, that is when I have the most difficulty.
Thank you for telling me that story about your friend. I am not even sure why I am so crazy about this man. I don’t even want a romantic partner, and wasn’t looking for one.
Your support warms my heart and gives me resolve to keep moving.
Hi Norma,
I‘m sorry you feel bad!
I was only skimming posts in the last weeks, but two things stand a bit out in my memory about your posts, if I remember them right (forgive me if not):
1. he reminds you of your ex husband in some of his negative qualities. Could it be that something in your mind is used to being connected/dependent on a person like that in your life and wants to re-enact it for some reason? I might be far off here, sorry.
2. he‘s gay, so he‘s unavailable and maybe that’s what is attractive for you, maybe it feels kind of „safe“ because nothing will ever come of it? Also only conjecture.
I think to do something nice for yourself, physical exercise (simply walking in nature , for example), looking for more agreeable people in your life to connect with, these advices from other posters were spot on!
To Mila: Those are great points, and I truly don’t know the answers. They’re both valid things to be asking myself. Perhaps I am reaching for something familiar, even though it’s unpleasant. The more I get to know this man, the less I like him.
Thank you for your thoughtful comments.
Hi Norma,
I think Anna and Snow’s responses are great on what to do, so I won’t add much on that. It is just all about finding small ways, by yourself and with others, to make your days more enjoyable and to decrease the reliance on this connection with LO.
All I wanted to add, is don’t view this as a backslide to levels of months ago. View it as a bad day or two. And that’s part of the inevitable jagged journey out of limerence. It is never linear and always involves backsliding. We have called it 3 steps forward, 2.5 back (which can feel like 4). It is a jagged climb down the hill and the pace can’t be forced. That can feel really frustrating! Hang in there.
To LaR: I like the way you look at things. Of course you’re right. I have learned a lot in the last year about limerence and a bad day is not going to take that away. Thank you for taking the time to reply to me.
@Norma Desmond.
You’ve been at LwL for a while now. I think you’re eligible for some Sammy advice. I’ve managed to annoy everyone else – I might as well annoy you too. 🙂
Lucy Bain (a neuroscientist) theorises people often become limerent because (a) the LO is a great match in some way (maybe on an unmet-needs level and/or an unconscious energy level) and (b) we still can’t be with that person.
In other words, the LO touches something deep in our souls and we experience euphoria. We experience euphoria a handful of times and become addicted because a handful of euphoric moments is enough to trigger addiction. No relationship materialises with this euphoria-producing magic unicorn person, and we start to suffer withdrawals. The crazy roller-coaster ride of intense emotions may feel like love, but it’s really chemicals in the brain. (I think Lucy generally views limerence as something fishy rather than as a prelude to pair-bonding).
I’m male and become limerent in high school for a male classmate. What did he give me that I wanted? Well, I think he gave me what I believed was approval or what I interpreted at the time as approval. So I needed approval. which is a pretty normal need for a young man that age. But the thing to remember about addiction is that addiction is insatiable. For example, if this guy gave me a bucket of approval, would I be happy? No. I would have wanted a swimming pool of approval. If he gave me a swimming pool of approval, would I be happy? No. I would have wanted the Pacific Ocean. My own need for approval was obviously the issue at stake, and not the other person (LO) withholding or rationing out approval.
Coming out of the limerence fog is really weird. I’ve been reluctantly forced to accept that maybe my LO didn’t give me mixed signals – certainly no mixed signals of a romantic nature. He probably gave me fairly straightforward signals (of casual friendship) and my brain-in-limerence “scrambled” those otherwise straightforward messages so that they no longer made sense. I was always searching for evidence of some profound love that just wasn’t there. 😲
What I’m saying is this: I believe chemical changes in the brain during limerence itself can make it harder to read social and sexual signals accurately. Most people believe the reverse. I.e. most people believe mixed signals induce the altered state of limerence (due to intermittent reinforcement). I believe a limerence-clouded brain will happily find ambiguity in a situation where no ambiguity exists, or little authentic desire has been communicated by the LO. However, I was a naive teenager experiencing limerence, and not some worldly mid-lifer.
My attitude to males has changed since coming out of limerence. I can at last “see” the males standing in front of me, both physically and psychologically, with a reasonable degree of objectivity. I no longer see males as objects who mostly exist to make me feel either “high” or “low” based on their perceived treatment of me. I mean the emotional dependency aspect of limerence is gone. The emotional dependency aspect isn’t even present anymore in my interactions with gay men, who could indeed realistically reciprocate some romantic feeling.
Furthermore, my dopamine levels have seemingly normalised to the point where I don’t feel like I’m walking around in a fog. I’m not trapped inside my own mind anymore. I was very shy and non-assertive during limerence. Now, if a guy is sitting in my favourite seat, I’ll just grumpily tell him to move over. 🤣🤣😁
I don’t walk on eggshells around other men. I don’t plan out or rehearse what I say to other men. I’m spontaneous. I finally understand the platonic friendship dynamics that are operative in friendships between straight men. I’ve always disliked the apparent immaturity of men’s friendships with other men. There’s a little too much competition going on for my taste and not enough overt emotional support. But I accept men with this “men’s style” of relating do really care about each other. I’ve learnt not to try to recreate the entire world in my own image.
You mustn’t envy people in mutual limerence, or people who wind up in relationships with their LOs, because these people can also suffer terrible pain and disillusionment. My sister is a lesbian. She developed limerence for a stunningly beautiful bisexual woman. The feeling turned out to be shared, because the women discussed the matter and entered a relationship. However, one day, the bisexual woman “woke up” out of the trance. She just didn’t have those feelings of passion anymore and choose to exit the relationship abruptly.
Also, today, in the shopping centre, I saw a young man and a young woman who are probably in mutual limerence for each other (and in the early days of a relationship as well). They literally couldn’t go up the escalator without hugging each other. It was funny. They both looked really tired and haggard, as if they weren’t sleeping well. And they both looked painfully thin, as if the pleasure of love was preventing them from the pleasure of eating regular meals. I just smiled politely at both of them, and pretended I didn’t see their dramatic PDA. I don’t think either of them saw me, although the female was staring straight at me (in terms of positioning on escalator) while she was hugging her boyfriend. 🙄
I don’t dwell on my LO’s shortcomings. Did I idealise him? Yes. Did I devalue him? Um, not really. But I had to “adjust downwards” my estimation of him to allow him to be just a normal human being in my imagination and not a demigod. I see this as “introducing reality” into my understanding of him, and not devaluation. My understanding of him was always unrealistic. I overvalued him. It was wrong of me to treat him as if he had greater value than everyone else in my life.
Emotional reality takes a long time to catch up with intellectual understanding. Emotion comes from a much deeper and more primitive part of the brain than intellect. Rome wasn’t built in a day. Freedom from infatuation is rarely achieved in one fell swoop.
In other news, are you aware celebrated singer Selena Gomez (in collaboration with benny blanco) has recently released a song called “Sunset Blvd”? 😜
To Sammy:
Thank you for your comments. I was not aware of the Selena Gomez song, so of course I had to go listen to it. I didn’t much care for it, but perhaps Gloria Swanson would have liked it.
You are so right about the issue of needing approval. I am no teenager, and I still long for the approval of certain people, especially LO.
I don’t idealize LO anymore. The more I get to know him, the less I like him as a person. One of my best qualities is my sense of humor and my ability to make people laugh. LO does not laugh at my jokes. I went so far as to ask him if he had his sense of humor surgically removed. He insisted it was just stress that prevented him from being more responsive. I am not sure if I believe this. He makes excuses for things that are just who he is. It’s not lack of time, or stress, or whatever other reason he might give. I suspect it’s just his nature.
When I look at him on paper, he is highly undesirable. However, I still see him as a magic-unicorn-person. Even the fact that he is a Trump supporter does not dissuade me.
I have one of Lucy Bain’s books. I found it a little too difficult, although I hope to refer to it from time to time.
Thank you for your kind response, and I hope to hear from you again.
Hi Norma, sorry to hear that.
It is a slippery slope and unfortunately it seems one can slide rather far down some times….
The only advice I can think of, the main thing is just maintaining the will to keep trying to climb that (slightly awkard metaphor of a) slippery slope. There is no other way out.
Given your LO seems to be not actually a great person, attempting to create negative associations might be a legitimate option? Sorry, haven’t been around here that much recently so not sure if you have tried it. Some people don’t like it because their LO is a ‘good’ LO, but seems you don’t have that problem.
I suppose you have read it, but in case not, this article in the key resources describes the creation of negative associations.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/deprogramming-the-limerent-brain/
I personally have found that recasting my ‘story’ from being a victim who suffers limerence and dissapointment to someone finding a way to become ‘themselves’, the united ‘self’, has really helped me see limerence more as an internal psychological need, where LO is a bit part player who is almost missing out. It has helped shift the LO from being thr centre of my thoughts and attention to more of a focus on why I am doing this to myself, what am I trying to get out of it. LO as a result shifted to a sort of sideline of that story. Chemically, maybe it is just the fade out, but it feels in my conscious thoughts like the approach helped. It also helps me to motivate myself to focus on family, friends sport etc. when I am feeling down, and not to get into the reverie.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-stories-we-tell-ourselves/
To Heebie Jeebies: Thank you so much for your thoughtful comments. I appreciate all the help!
Hey everyone!
I seen Coffeehouse so I thought I would take the opportunity to pop in to say hi.
It’s been a brutal winter here in Canada so I also took that opportunity to continue working on myself and weaving my way through my Limerence.
It’s been interesting to say the least!
I have cut my therapy sessions down to once a month because I have been doing so well, I still have my days but overall things are going pretty good!
Dr. Tom had posted a blog last November on “Links between anxious attachment and Limerence” and I can tell you without a doubt that my attachment style coupled with my feelings of unworthiness, low self-esteem and codependency was the catalyst for my development of Limerence.
I know that everyone here may have a different reason for their Limerence but I do believe we all have something going on whether it be subconscious or not to fall into it. (just my opinion, ya’ll know I have to express my opinion lol)
When I first started therapy, in my mind the sole purpose was to rid myself of this “affliction” that had taken over my mind, body and soul. I think I was more confused than anything, like WTH is wrong with me!
I had NO IDEA at the time that it stemmed from who I was at my core, especially in my belief of who I THOUGHT I was. Early messages from caregivers shape your core beliefs about how you think about yourself. You all know this, I’m getting carried away again! lol
Anyway, What started as counseling for Limerence turned into so much more, so much more that Limerence actually started to take a back seat in my therapy sessions. I am extremely grateful to my therapist for her relentless digging, for her patience in peeling away the layers that I didn’t even know existed within.
I’m an advocate for therapy but you don’t have to. Some people might find it too uncomfortable or believe they don’t need it, and that’s perfectly fine. But WE have to take the first step in getting to the root of it all. It might be something simple like just being bored with your life or a troubled marriage, mid-life crisis or it could go as deep as mine did. And mine went deep.
In my last session I asked her “Why couldn’t I have just realized myself what was going on and made some changes in my life and my thought process?” “Why did this have to be so painful?”
She said ” Most times you have to hit that brick wall at full speed and fall down the well to dig yourself back up before change will come.”
Wise women.
A couple of things that helped a lot along the way:
No Contact.
I know that for some of you that’s impossible because your LO may be a co-worker, neighbor, friend etc… but if you can, low contact.
Some people say that it only made it worse for them but I have been NC for almost a year and a half and I think just the sheer passage of time has made it work it’s magic.
Dr. Tom’s purposeful living.
Engage yourself in things that make YOU happy, even if you don’t want to or feel like it. “Just do it!”
I have reengaged in my hobbies, started socializing with my friends again and even though I didn’t want to at first I really enjoy it now.
It makes you feel that you belong in the world again.
Acceptance
This is incredibly hard but so worth the effort!
At first I couldn’t do it, I didn’t want too.
I thought why would I want to accept this? I just want it gone!!!
My therapist said to at least just keep it in the back of my mind, so I did.
As time went on and I could see some improvement in my symptoms I allowed acceptance into my mind every now and then and it started to work.
It really works when rumination appears, I accept it as just a part of recovery and it takes the flip-flop anxiety away. It takes me out of the loop and back to reality.
Accept Limerence why? It’s here, it’s apart of your life for now anyway. Fighting it will get you nowhere. Trust me I tried.
So, in conclusion to my ramblings here my thoughts on Limerence have changed dramatically over the course of a year.
It was a profound chapter in my life that has changed my course on how I live and how I think about myself.
I have taken the fear out of Limerence for myself, what I mean is that I can’t banish it from my mind. I don’t want to. I lived it and it will be something that had a life changing affect on me. It will be a part of who I am now and going forward with my life. It’s not a threat anymore. It’s an innocuity.
Looking back from where I am now would I change anything?
Not a thing.
Anna,
Just want to give you a big ✋! long time no seen!
I’m very happy for your progress! You indeed sound confident, insightful of LE and yourself, and joyful! Keep moving forward, Anna!
I’m doing well and busy, and continue reshaping my Self (discovered during LE and then through LwL learning). I can’t FORCE myself to go any directions (my Unconscious tends to rebel); so I just tested out all helpful steps and prepared backwards reset and failures. Then, it worked overall (a Stoic trick — expect/wait for the worst to happen in any matter I touch) with the price of depression or despair from time to time. I don’t have anger towards anyone, including Mom, but some sadness occasionally grasped me for so much loss in the past….
Your posts are always encouraging, so if you have time and willing, please drop by here to tell us your therapy progress and cheer others up! (Though many have a SO).
So good to “catch” you at this moment!
Through daily learning, inner work, and interacting with this LwL 👻 👻 town, I’ve finally understood what Jung means when he states that the most important relationship and connection in the world is one with oneSELF, and what internally feeling secure and peaceful is like….
https://youtu.be/ug-hj0f3avI?si=f892sFRBvRPle_sP — When Someone Is Meant for You, You’ll know — Here’s Why | Carl Jung
A quarter through this ⬆️ clip, a revelation suddenly 💡 hit my 🧠 about why this LE was so intense and lasted so long — deeply related to Narc Mom, her mental/emotional abuse, her SENSOR nature, and the anxiety attachment I was “trained” under her controlling yet neglecting grips!
The video helped explain a very puzzling dream from Sept of 2018…the Unconscious was insightful and very telling, but I could neither understand it nor listen to its confusing, reveling images, which then elongated another 6.5 years of this LE….
Now one more puzzle piece is put on the LE board… 🙂
https://youtu.be/KPo-pZa1c10?si=tUFvn0u9ao2d_Fo2 — You Have No Idea the Self-Love That Awakens After saying ‘No More” — Carl Jung.
If one can’t stand, feel comfortable and peaceful, or appreciate being alone without loneliness… the path of 🦋 ⬅️ 🐛 may not be suitable or ready yet…. It’s twice or even ten times harder when one is in 🧬 driving limerence….
A beauty of such a path is that 🦋🫸 ↪️ 🐛…
Hi Snow!
Thank you for your kind words.
My new found confidence still wains sometimes but overall things are good.
Yes, I hear you about the occasional sadness, it still visits me from time to time. What I could of been, should of been had my upbringing been different. I just let it be.
Good to hear from you!
Hi Anna,
good to hear from you and in such a positive way! Thanks for sharing that with us, these are such important insights.
Yes, echoed! Sounds like amazing progress for you Anna, and it is heartening to hear 🙂
Thanks LaR!
Hope you are doing good! I’m patiently waiting for spring to arrive…..
Hi Mila!
Thank You! I’m making good progress!
Dear @Anna
I just wanted to say hi, and to thank you for this post. I’m new here, I hadn’t even heard of limerence until a week ago. Your post makes so much sense and much of it reinforces what I’ve already seen. It’s really good advice, and resonates with my own story (which you can read in Coffee House- Limerence and Mental Health) should you be interested!)
You’ve clearly been through a lot and worked really hard. So well done and thank you for your wisdom.
Hi Justmeandmyobsessions
Thank you for your kind words! Yes, I have worked really hard to get where I am today. Therapy has helped immensely.
I read your story and I sure can relate to it. My LO did the push/pull, hot/cold with me as well leading to me being more obsessive. Uggg…
I hope you don’t mind me saying this but from my perspective (cause I’ve been through it) sounds to me like she’s enjoying the attention it creates for her. At your expense.
She might be doing it subconsciously cause who knows? She might have some personal inner issues of her own.
My LO was clearly a Narcissist, so he quite enjoyed stringing me along. He didn’t care a hoot about me. I’m not saying she is one but my advice would be to steer clear. You don’t need that and you certainly don’t deserve it either.
Whether she has Narc traits or not she has triggered something in you that I hope you will take steps to address.
There are lots of lovely people out there that would enjoy your company.
Good Luck!
Dear Anna, thanks for your reply. Believe me, you are far from the first in this wonderful forum to cast doubts on her motives and behaviours. I have come to the point of believing you are absolutely right. Even before I’d heard about limerence I had come to the conclusion that she was in it for her own benefits. I think that there are definitely “narc traits” as you so brilliantly put it. It’s really interesting to hear this from females, too, as I think you’re in a better position to judge her behaviours. Thanks for your support. I’ll keep you posted. Do keep me up to date with your story too.
To Anna:
What an inspiring post. I really enjoyed reading it.
I wanted to make a comment on the issue of accepting your own limerence. I have been reading books by the Buddhist teacher Thich Nhat Hanh. He says to accept your suffering and comfort yourself as you would a crying baby.
So what I do is imagine my poor broken brain as a baby that needs comforting, and I cradle my limerent brain in my arms.
It sounds corny, but it does help.
That’s an excellent analogy!
Limerence is a “sick baby” which needs to be gradually healed with patience and sincere care 🧡 — after all, s/he’s your own baby!
Continue moving your physical body with whatever you are able to do, Normal 💪
Loving that analogy! So relatable.
Hi Norma:
Acceptance is easier said than done, but it CAN be done. Just needs some practice.
I really like what you said about comforting our Limerent brains. I think we are too hard on ourselves trying to deal with this. We need to feel compassion and love for ourselves.
Most Limerents find that very difficult because we are too focused on someone else’s needs.
Let’s change that.
hi @Anna
Like some others who replied, I didn’t know you before, here…but, I am grateful you came back to share your experience.
What you are saying about discovering where your limerence came from – going into those depths – with your therapist, really reasonates with me. I am a person who has had multiple limerences…a pattern in my life. Recently, I have started down the difficult road of trying to heal the source. The limerences are just a symptom…and will keep happening if I don’t address the real cause (causes).
Hearing that you were able to segue from the limerence, which brought you onto the healing path, to address the other issues, is hugely helpful…and gives me hope I will be able to do similar! And, hearing that you do not regret all you have been through, despite it clearly being so very difficult and painful, is also very helpful.
It was very kind of you to come back and share. Thank you. I wish you continued self-knowledge and peace!
csc
Hi csc!
Yes, I’ve been hanging around LwL for a while now.
When I first arrived here a little over a year ago, I was quite a mess.
Limerence hit me for the first time in my forties and given my personal inner struggles with myself I was surprised, no shocked, that I hadn’t experienced it before.
But truthfully it was just what I needed to start doing something about my issues.
It was a catapult. There was no going back. I refused to live like that anymore.
Everyone here was so kind and helpful.
But I knew that I had to do the work myself.
I wished in the beginning of all of this that I could of gone from utter despair to complete peace in a week lol
Doesn’t work like that but that’s good! You learn some incredibly great things about yourself that are hidden away, just waiting to be freed.
I’m so glad that you recognize that Limerence is just a symptom of something greater and are taking steps to heal.
I won’t say it’s easy cause it’s not.
But when is anything worthwhile easy?
I wish you all the best on your healing journey!
HI Anna,
thanks for this post, and good to get an update. I feel like the way you talk about limerence and how you have overcome, or rather accepted it, resonates very heavily with me and your updates over time shaped my thoughts a lot. Your description now I could almost transplant over to my own ‘journey’, even if I don’t maybe have the same root issues and haven’t been able to find a therapist locally (ironically they are publicly fully funded here, which means they are all booked up….).
I think I still need to work on ‘accepting’ it, that seems dangerous to me, as it legitimizes the ‘feelings’ for LO, but of course therein lies also perhaps a desire to see LO one day again, which I think is the hardest thing to let go of. There is the current NC, which makes logical sense and is easy enough to maintain, but is there an NC I maintain because I truly want it? I haven’t yet achieved that.
I don’t fully understand this sentence – can you explain a bit more the mental process you go through?
“…It really works when rumination appears, I accept it as just a part of recovery and it takes the flip-flop anxiety away. It takes me out of the loop and back to reality.”
For me when I feel myself start to ruminate, I have developed a couple of mental tricks to reject or divert my mind. it sounds more like you embrace it?
Well said Anna, very interesting and informative and helpful
Dear Coffeehouse Friends,
Awhile ago I posted a rather lengthy update on my Lady Friend saga and was preparing to reply to the varied and worthy replies many of you gave from that post. Thank you again. I truly appreciate your time..
It looks as if now I will not need to post any reply to those replies. Because as it stands my friendship with her has ended. An issue came up last week that more or less confirms her position on my status in her world and unfortunately is not in my favor. So she’s decided to quit talking to me. The issues and matters we’ve been discussing are lengthy and getting into personal territory, that I feel do not have a place in this forum. So I cannot and will not post about them. While I would love to be sharing and getting “y’alls” opinions about these discussions, they really have no place here. Because in all honesty, I’ve never really considered our friendship a limerent issue for me anyway. LF just doesn’t resonate the feelings or bewilderment LO brings to the table. It’s just a strong crush and while this is kind of hurting me like a bitch (and in sort of limerent fashion), I’m still not crying over her like I did LO. I suppose I’m now more along the lines of depressed and bitter. Like tell you something you didn’t know already, right??
Our friendship over the past few months I felt was really starting to increase and it seemed like I was finally clearing a pathway to her heart. Even with disclosure back in December, and then having to go LC on her for awhile back in January. She then broke the LC first, apologized and we re-connected. It was lovely. Just recently she started letting her guard down more, opening up and engaging with me on an almost fun new level. But I guess it was too much.
Lady Friend has never really gone out of her way for me. She is adamant about how she feels in most things, but never cutting to the chase in what she really wants to say to me. Then irrirating me, when I’m honest with her how I feel about her vagueness. I don’t think this is good for my psyche. I am just finding her simply confused for all the wrong reasons, naive and unable to show empathy. I’ve enjoyed her friendship immensely though, wish her nothing but the best and am very sad to have to put a fork in it, but I am not going to plead for her understanding. Especially if she’s going to believe my point holds no merit. I’m not going to keep hashing this stuff out at work either. I have a very good job that I don’t want to lose and especially if I piss her off enough. The last thing I need is a trip to HR..
I let her know she has a right to feel what she feels and l will always be available when/if she decides to change her mind.
So as of now, I am going hard/STRICT LC again. Almost wish I could do NC at this point, but I guess I’ll see whatever drama this brings about. I’m not really looking forward to it..
I’d like to have better news, but I’ll live..
I guess.
Cheers “Y’all” 🥂
Hi MJ,
Haven’t read your updates, and it’s hard to judge your falling out with each other without knowing the discussion, but just wanted to say sorry that you don’t feel good. Don’t get bitter about it. She for sure fights her own battles, who knows.
Maybe there will be a way to a more casual but warm friendship in the future.
(Although I shouldn’t speak, still not completely over unwarranted resentment towards my XLO).
Thank you Mila. Not trying to be too bitter but she doesn’t make it easy. She’s definitely got her own drama playing out on her end and I feel like I’ve only been like a splinter in her finger that she can’t get out. Jacking up all her plans and getting emotional about it. Casual friendship would be fine but then again, that’s really all we ever were. Think she might be sick of me, but we’ll see.
Hi MJ,
Really sorry to hear about this setback with LF. Like Mila says, it is hard to venture in and say much more without more background to what’s happened, but respect if you don’t want to say. Don’t worry so much about appropriacy of stuff for this forum (people go off topic all the time and others don’t mind), but if it’s not the right thing *for you* to say then totally fair.
Could it be that whatever it is just needs time for the dust to settle like last time? I’d be kinda surprised if she’s invested all that effort into your friendship if it meant little to her. Good idea though to prioritise not having to make a trip to HR.
This all sounds knotty. Hope you’re OK.
Hi MJ,
Ugh, it sounds as though you are going to need some other distraction at work. You are perfectly correct not to want to overstep boundaries or say anything that could be interpreted as unhelpful in “the work setting”. Modern workplaces can be unforgiving, as we all know and you’ve got to prioritise your job and good standing there.
Unfortunately, even though NC leaves a lot of room for misunderstanding between LF and yourself, that’s probably best at the moment, right? It seems like things have come to an impasse where she has gone silent and asked for space. You’ve just got to go along with this and see what happens. Certainly when things are tense, its best to wait that out and show that you can be trusted to be chilled.
Please try to distract yourself – I know that work can be boring without people to share a laugh with but you really need your other work buddies now. Do you have those people where you work (hopefully a different set than mutual friends of LF)?
Wishing you all the best,
B
Thank you Bewitched. Always know I can count on you for positivity and a well-thought out response.
I do abhor the thought of not having her around to talk with now. We were just getting back into a good place with each other and even having lunch together now and then. It was so nice, but maybe it was too nice.
There are others around there I talk to but none like I shared stuff with her. She just became the go-to and I loved that. Especially when she was in a good mood and happy to see me.
I know a few other females in different departments I can go talk to but none I’m really feeling a need to hit-up at the moment. LFs friends probably won’t hate on me too much as long as she can keep our business to herself. (She kind of agreed to that before we parted.)
My Son works in another area on this shift too and I can go see him when I need to. He’s about the only other person I would say I’m closest to. (Like yeah naturally, lol..)
LC worked before and I surprised myself by how well it did, but this impasse feels different. Some words were said that I kinda regret bringing up but it was time. At some point she had to be made aware and so I felt the need.
Unfortunately though, I’m very familiar with knowing how to and screwing a good thing up, so chalk another one up for the idiot.. It’s all in God’s hands now..
Thank you LaR. I realize this is an anonymous forum, but there is still this little part of me that wonders if she ever stumbled into here and put 2 and 2 together, you know?? Most likely not going to happen though. Really I just want to be respectful of her privacy and ranting on to the forum about it might even even be pointless now. Especially if she never comes back around. No sense in beating a dead horse.
A lot has gone into this friendship but I’m pretty sure all her other drama with Dude has been playing on her too. In a way, I do kinda think I meant very little to her by the almost callous approach she’s taken on with me now. I’d hate for it to actually come down to that. Perhaps the dust does infact need to settle, but I have to let her have her space. This will be somewhat challenging since we are in the same department together, but LC is possible if I am and can remain vigilant about it..
Thank you again for your reply and understanding..
MJ,
Have that envied 😭 and feel peace ☮️ in your 💙….
https://youtu.be/OKyYR2cqwbw?si=SgBFJSaETqFmCs7w — that feeling when you find peace in being alone…
Thank you Snow. That’s very nice. I’ll probably put that on again later while I have dinner alone. I don’t know if there is peace in this sadness, but it’s really getting old.. 😔
This is more along the lines of where I’m at today…
https://youtu.be/xqCSNpZGDD0?si=sbbEj8_C5-rv8WIo
Ah, you sound like in a lighter but a bit anxious mood than I expected! 👍
When I felt down, I’d let those sad tones run for hours to drag my sadness out of my 🧠….
For me personally, it’s not enjoyable or meaningful to sip tea or coffee with anyone who does not genuinely want to sit down with me and chat about any matter under the sky….
Feel better soon!
Anxious is right my Friend. I have to go back to work tomorrow and see her and it’s going to suck. I hate avoiding her. But I’m so sad and confused and that’s why that music speaks to me..
If I don’t sit and reflect with it, I’ll just end up updating LOs playlist again. Which isn’t good either. Oh what’s a guy to do??
Thank you for understanding.. 😔
Oh man @MJ
You have really been through the ringer. All of this sounds very taxing and truly like it’s been exhausting. I know the feeling well, myself.
It’s easy and interesting to become wrapped up in another person when emotional things have been shared. And the whiplash of when the connection breaks apart is very hard. When another person gets the benefit of your emotional support, and then seems to withdraw…it is torture. I have been there (am there now).
I’m sorry for what you are going through. I know you can make it through. But, I know it’s really difficult. Even if you know it’s bad for your psychological state, it’s still hard to face. Just wanted to send encouragement and understanding your way.
csc
Thanks CSC. You have become quite a marvelous support person in how you make time for others here. I try to get on more but it’s time consuming with life as it’s happening for me now.
I am kind of going through the mental wringer again. If I had known she would be so un-empathic about my honesty, I probably wouldn’t have wasted my time. Because it only makes me feel worse about myself. Forget all the ridiculous therapeutic cliches that are so cringe right now. This just hurts again. It’s getting old.
The good thing is she hasn’t bottomed me out like LO did. I don’t know if that could ever happen like that again. I mean I have cried (Because I am the premier middle-aged crying Dude of Lwl) but it’s just not the same kind of cry.
Wtf, this is so pathetic to be talking about now anyway. Just be quiet MJ. Nobody cares.. 😭😂
Thanks again for chiming in CSC.. Appreciate you..
Thanks @mj
I often come on here ostensibly to type up my latest sob story. But end up deciding it’s better to not share and just to see if I can help. But yeah I am really really struggling and my heart has utterly broken. Today I did just about the worst thing I could have done and accidentally broke NC when I went to delete and block LO on my phone, but got distracted and almost ended up getting shut in the closing door of the subway…and in the mayhem accidentally typed a thumbs up reaction into LOs text thread (which sent)
So, I had planned to make a clean and phantom-like break and leave his last text on read… Which I had done for about 4 days…But instead I’ve just accidentally reacted with the world’s most passive aggressive emoji and ruined my entire plan, underlining what an utter, awkward loser I am. So much for the cost of woman who lets nothing bother her. He now probably knows he got under my skin and will wonder why I’m so weird.
My whole intent was to just disappear and now I look like a passive aggressive middle aged loony
So no you’re not as bad as all that. I’m effing mortified and now have to spend even more time ruminating on a guy who only used me for his ego…
No, no MJ — I am no saint. Just helping others when I can bc I’m well aware of how incredibly hard and awful this stuff is
In solidarity
csc
Csc,
To flip this on its head … if your aim is not to seem like a ‘middle aged loony’, I wonder if karma spoke on that subway. Because wouldn’t ‘delete and block’ really have made you look more like the ‘loony’ than a thumbs up emoji would??
The thumbs up gets a mixed rap, but it could just have casually conveyed to him that you have been busy but didn’t want to 100% forget to acknowledge his message. It’s not all bad!
You’ve got options here to slide gracefully out of the exit door rather than slam it on the way through.
Where did the delete and block idea come from, out of interest?
Hi LaR,
I don’t want to hijack MJ’s thread here…he is the one who has asked for support 🙂 sorry MJ ….maybe in the future I should put stuff like this, unattached, down below? Let me know protocol!
Thanks for helping me feel better about the thumbs up. I am just going to have to live with it! But whoops. Yeah, the delete/block is because I can’t participate in this anymore. I thought the NC would be enough, but he kept texting and sending me stuff…and finally, asked for plans. Then he cancelled. (and cancelled badly, at the 11th hour) He’s been in touch since then, but with vague messages….it’s exhausting because I have such a soft spot for him.
I now feel a needle of pain every time I look at my phone. So…blocking. What I don’t know won’t hurt me. Not as much as all this ambiguous carrot-stick stuff he does.
I am running myself ragged, emotionally, and it’s my sole responsibility to end this hell. I believe he only comes to me when he needs his ego boosted. I believe he doesn’t do so intentionally but…I believe it’s the real reason.
The only thing that will work given my weakness for him is a total block. He may not deserve it, but he’s young, handsome, and a flake. He’ll live. I can’t spend one more minute in this back and forth, inconsistent and confusing space with LO, hating myself, wondering about my age, wondering if I’m attractive or worthy…none of it. This habit is completely toxic to my life.
The high of him wanting to go out together is wonderful, the high of him giving some sort of pursuit these days was absolutely a thrill. But it’s not sustainable at all. The come-down when he flaked out was awful, a totally unhealthy space for me. If I let this go on and on, I’ll lose more of my self, joy, health, and stability to it (thanks to a year in this I am running on empty with those things already) I am cutting it clean, completely off. I have to. I feel my survival is at stake. It’s been hell.
csc
@CSC,
Hijack whatever you need to Dear. My thread is not that important. You bestow your good wisdom wherever and with whomever you find it warranted.
This forum format here is a mess no matter how we try to keep it together.. 😁
I do not deserve you @MJ
Thank you. 🙂 I hope you’re doing better today…seems like…maybe…a little bit, yes? From everything I’ve read, this has been so, so emotional for you. That is a lot of wear and tear on a person…for me, it makes me very very tired, after I come down from all the brain chemicals.
You are going through a lot. I know that from my own standpoint, in my own life…it’s very hard and it’s tiring. Hopefully you are getting enough rest, enough to eat, enough water…all that. 🙂
…water, especially, if there have been tears.
csc
@CSC,
Tears yes but not Niagara Falls-like tears.
Seeing her again soon and I have no idea how our night will go. I miss her already. She wasn’t anything other than a friend but someone I trusted. That I considered her feeling almost the same??
Perhaps not, but it won’t be the first time I’ve been wrong.
Talk to you later.. 😑
Aw, what a shame. I’m sorry. 🙁 People don’t give it the credit it deserves, but losing a friend is just as painful as losing a SO.
I think you are correct SL. Thank you for understanding.
Funny how you sent me this message and just last night this article showed up in my feed..
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/feels-death-friendship-breakups-just-110054121.html
Take care Friend.. 😔😉
MJ.
If your LF can’t honestly talk with you about her dude, she’s not your friend yet… in my 👀
I don’t have friend in my reality to whom I can tell about my LE. I can only speak to faceless, nameless, and shapeless SOULS 👻 👻 here — soul/ghost friends…
Regardless how much empathies we receive, Actual and concrete healing work has to be done by our body, mind, and soul…
Hang there there, MJ!
@Snow,
Thank you for that.. You’re probably very right. But she doesn’t know I already know about that. And she can’t know because it would definitely keep me at the top of her $#!+list.
I’m only trying to be the positive person in her life. Using my age and maturity to try and prove that to her. I feel like once she knows I’m on her side, she won’t have to dance around her sneaky little dalliance going on. I mean it’s a total dead end for her. If only I could get that through her stubborn skull..
You, too! 🙂 Amazing timing for that article!
MJ,
Of course, you don’t want her to know what you’ve already known about her secrets — “save face” for her sake!
To lay your vulnerable self bare to her is a sincere, brave way to build a potential, real friendship, I applaud you for it! However, you can’t expect or even request the other side to do the same; what they do/respond is their right and choice — beyond our control. You can hope for a friendship reciprocation, but NO is 50% of possibility, like anything else in the life. Why is it so hard to accept such a fact?
Please allow me to ask you a couple of questions —
1. What if she willingly chooses to be the dude’s secret mistress or even bore a child for him? Such a “dead” case is plenty around the world in any culture.
2. Why do you think she needs or welcomes your positive influence and maturity? Why would she want to be “saved” by you? Do you want to “save” her from her “dead end” for her own sake or your dreamed friendship?
3. If she simply doesn’t care MJ’s care — due to lack of glimmer (you already disclosed), even if you were a walking Jesus Christ, thenwhat are you going to do?
4. It sounds like that you’re more clinging to her right now, how would that anxiety be subtly or obviously carried out in your interaction with her? Is she not sensitive enough to feel your anxiety or desperation?
I don’t know enough of what has happened in your latest conversations and interactions, so please forgive my naive questions, if they’re inappropriate or offensive.
@Snow,
Not offended but I’ll try to keep it real.
I haven’t been in a good place for a long time and Women are hardly knocking at my door or blowing up my phone. I don’t keep a lot of company but when I decide to make a particular person a focus, I just make them the focus. And nothing else matters while I try.
My connection to LF was genuine in my mind, but you are correct that the feeling probably isn’t mutual. But I haven’t told my mind to entirely shut it down because her situation is so pointless that it’s insane. My hope is that she’ll hopefully see it like that at some point and find me again.
As for her ever bearing this Dudes child is probably way out of the question. Because she’s dead set on never having any children. This is a major factor in why I levitate so much in her direction. I’m done having children and really don’t want any more children and finding a Woman who doesn’t have any or want children at all is kind of game changing. It just makes them all that much more appealing to me.
I can’t make her do anything other than try to help her see the best version of myself that I can be to her. Yes this is my subtle way of trying to save her. From a situation that holds no promise or good outcome to someone who really cares deeply for her that isn’t attached to somebody else. This could benefit both of us.
Perhaps she’s not good at being clear or if she is being clear, she’s showing me that she still needs a little more. But still doesn’t want to cross a boundary just yet. I feel like since she broke LC first the last time we quit talking, that I was more than just another guy friend at work. Which she has plenty of. But not too many that engage with her on the level I did. It was just different and I loved it.
She probably did pick up on some of my desperation last time we talked, but it was my way of reminding her I’m still human and have feelings and faults. My point is she’s not perfect either. Just because I know something about her that she doesn’t know I know about, doesn’t even mean I think less of her. It just shows how shallow she is. Especially after I tell her private matters about my past that are quite embarrassing. Do I sort of expect her to reciprocate and do a “tell-all” to me back? I guess it would help but I’m not going to push it. Nor do I really expect it.
Tbh, I’ve never really forced anything out of her. Our friendship has really grown quite organically imo. I’ve enjoyed the hell out of it. So yes if she feels that desperation in my tone, it’s only because I was true to myself with her. I can’t ask for anything more than honesty in relationship. I’ve been a f—ing fraud my whole life. It’s time to move beyond that..
HI MJ,
I am maybe going to be a bit less kind than other posters, but I am doing it because I want to help.
I think you are limerent for LF.
The good news (If I am right) is that you are maybe experiencing a lost LeL limerence, which is less harsh, you are just maybe a bit more self-aware of limerence now and able to blunt the edges.
It is presumptious of me to judge your situation, I don’t know the details and may be way off the mark. I do think though that your reactions to this frienduationship just seem more heightened than one might expect. This has been my feeling for a little while.
I am only saying this because i think it might help you to recognise that the patterns are maybe not quite a crush, and you may need to draw on a wider palette of the LWl ‘tools’ than you perhaps are.
Anyway, no intent to be offensive, I just struggle to see that this is a normal crush, and worry you might veer into the behaviour that limerence can cause through the loss of self awareness.
that shodul read *post LwL limerence
Thank you Heebie Jeebies,
You have always been a very wise one in how you relate to me. Thank you for analyzing this..
I feel you are correct about this being a less degree episode. I suppose I really didn’t consider it a full blown LE because glimmer was never really present much and the realization and possibility of her never hit me in the meteroite-like way that LO did. The uncertainty was also not present as much because this time there was engagement between two parties. (More or less reality instead.) It was fantastic, when it was good.
Right now the limerent feelings are heightened due to revelations I disclosed about my past and she didn’t like it. This came about because she stated exclusively that she would not judge me based on whatever they were. Yet made it conditional anyway because certain criteria must not be allowed in her world. Now I’m straight garbage in her eyes. I give up.
It would be safe to say that I sorta made true to gutting my rotten past to this person because I was hopeful she would relay that certain little illicit thing she has going on with Dude. If not in straight detail presently, but in some facet or capacity. Of course it’s a difficult subject to admit to, but it was part of my litmus test to gauge her truthfulness. This now proves she is one very shallow person. Why should I even care anymore if this is the jist of what I can expect if I continue relating to and trying to like her? It’s got toxic written all over it.
However I can’t seem to attract much of any quality Woman, good or bad. So I’ll keep being fed with what the good Lord is giving me and putting up with it. At the end of the day, I was still alone anyway and coming home to a cold house.
Spring will be here soon though, so maybe the house will start getting a little warmer now when I arrive.. Right?? Positive thinking MJ.
Thanks again for your input. Hope this clears up a little of what you weren’t understanding before.
MJ my brother
I am sorry to hear about LF. You are right to be cautious with co-workers even, in your case you are available, as they can easily get messy fast. So good of you to be cautious. I dated a gal before Momma that I worked with and it didn’t go well. Crushed on another gal that everyone clearly knew I was. Even her. Then there is LO. So I do not have a good track record with female co-workers lol. So even when I was single I screwed it up with female co-workers.
Maybe I can tell you a story I don’t think I have shared here that may make you laugh. In March of 2022 I had a checkup with my cardiologist. After getting my EKG I was waiting in his office and he told me this was the best EKG reading I had since my ablation in 2019.
LO leaves in June 2022. My following appointment was August 2022. Cardiologist told me “Adam this ain’t good. Your heart rate is the highest its ever been and it’s out of rhythm again.” So he asked me a bunch of questions to try and figure out what changed. When he couldn’t find anything physical he asked me if anything happened in my life. I told him the only thing I could think of was LO left the job and I might not ever see her or her daughter again. I said that I got really attached to them and I didn’t take them leaving well.
I said jokingly “What doc did she break my heart?” He told me that emotional and psychological trauma can represent physically. That’s why they call it heart break because it can physically break the heart. My response? “And all this time you wanted me to stop drinking but it’s women that are killing me.” 🙂
“My response? “And all this time you wanted me to stop drinking but it’s women that are killing me.” 🙂”
I like that!
The drinking will just likely get it to happen sooner.
Keep in mind: Some risks are unavoidable. Many risk are voluntary. If you are aware of risk and knowingly choose to accept it, a bad outcome is not a tragedy.
https://despair.com/cdn/shop/products/overconfidencedemotivator.jpeg?v=1403276078
Thank you Adam. It’s good to hear from you again. As a Brother, I was hoping you would reach out. I’m befuddled and sad today but then again I’ve felt that way for awhile.
She’s never admitted to her wranglings with Dude and I know it’s embarrassing to admit, but I really trusted this person and told her a lot about my dark past. Stuff I wouldn’t tell just anyone. Guess I was hoping she wouldn’t despise me for it, but once again, giving her the benefit of the doubt bit me in the ass. I’m tired of it and tired of the expectation I should just accept my orbiting status, while she lies to me through her well-flossed teeth. I’m hardly the type that’s difficult to get along with but I guess it’s easier to hate on reality than deal with it. I really thought she was stronger than this, but I suppose I pushed the envelope too far when she didn’t see it coming. Which is just how it is. Nobody’s perfect. If I was, I surely wouldn’t be alone as f—..
Your story reminded me of something I may not have told you before. Your LO left in June of 2022 and my LO landed her meteorite on my heart in July of 2022. Forever changing my whole outlook on what spectacular beauty is all about.. Did you send your limerence my way Brother?? Did you send all that my way by way of the stars or something?? Is our limerence why we met in this forum and can share our sadness and miseries together?? Why I oughtta.. I should just oughtta buy you a drink, my Brother from another mother!! 🤣🤣 How dare you do such a thing and make me feel things I’ve never felt before. Sending me down this crazy road of fantasy, illusion, hope and sadness. What $#!+show!! I can’t thank you enough today Friend.
Drinking one for you.. 🍻
If my heart keeps breaking though, death can’t happen soon enough..
MJ my brother, I am always here for you.
I think one big struggle with LO was that we naturally became friends and could confide in each other. While it was quite possibly my downfall it was also nice to have someone to talk to. My wife’s cousin’s husband played that role well for me when they lived closed to us. I haven’t really had a lot of friends as an adult. And I think that is how LO started out as.
It does feel punishing when you think that you have something with someone and then they do something to make you realize you weren’t as important to them as they are to you. I get it my brother. And I am sorry that you had to go through this and come to that realization. LO pretty much left with little more than a goodbye. I dunno what I expected when she left that last day, but it didn’t think that to her it seemed like just another goodbye.
I surly didn’t mean to send my limerence your way if I did. I wouldn’t want to put you through that, but I am glad that you found this place. 🙂 Not just for your own healing but for your comradery. We maybe hundreds of miles apart but I am glad to have made a friend in you. And having someone by your side that understands you and you can talk to really helps. And I can only hope, that of last news people feel compelled to tell me about her, that LO has found her own MJ with the guy she’s with. I couldn’t ask for someone that could treat her any better than you have your LO and LF.
And yes a drink. Well I had more than one last night ….. imagine that. 🙂 But like I said, it’s not the drinking that’s killing me. At least not at the moment. Oh women! Why are you so bad for me?
Take care brother.
Thanks Adam, I think I felt a tear coming on there. 😢 (my emotional a$$ 😂)
You’re still giving me way too much credit. I feel like you could be right, but obviously the type of Women I am attracted to see it differently.. I do hope your LO is well and will remember you fondly if she ever thinks of her time there where you work. Connection is important.
I reminded LF of that before we separated the other night. I wasn’t cold or calculated. I just approached her in sorrow, told her I’m still that same guy that loves to laugh and joke with her and gave it my best. She appeared to be upset but pushed it all aside. As I’m so used to seeing her compartmentalize everything. Whether or not she’ll come back around is no easy guess. I feel like I just got in her emotional way all the time and she wasn’t used to it. Or maybe I was too Dad-like. It never seemed to bother her before, but whatever. I was honest with her till the end. I hope things change since we’ll still be working together, but the ball is in her court.
Have a drink for me again later. And maybe a couple more while you’re at it. Thinking of you always.
Cheers Bro .. 🍻
Melancholic Piano to Help You Through Hard Times https://youtu.be/EMRn8GTvND4?si=00EHXW4-U4QRVSkH
Stare at and Stay with Sadness 🥺😥, it will go away (it worked me repeatedly)….
LO invited me over yesterday and I folded like a cheap suit. We spent an hour together, and had a great time. I feel so conflicted. On the one hand, I can see that my intense attraction toward him is fading somewhat. Part of me seems to feel that increased exposure to LO will lead to more boredom, which is a good thing.
We talked almost exclusively about his favorite subject, himself, but I find it fascinating because he has amazing stories to tell. He did talk mostly about a former partner who dumped him, and he got quite animated when describing this person. I noticed how he came alive when he talked about what a fun and dynamic man his partner was. I found myself feeling sad that he doesn’t engage with me more or have much enthusiasm for our relationship. Not in a sexual way, of course, but I am a funny and lively person, and I wished he enjoyed my company more.
I took him some food and told him that this is how I show love. He said he understood and commented that he much prefers to give than receive. I made a mental note that LO has never given me ANYTHING, other than a sparkling water to drink.
Not sure where I go from here, other than to note that I no longer idealize him, and that I am becoming somewhat less interested overall.
Norma,
My girlfriend suffered the similar emotional pain like yours. She did not expect sex from him but mental and emotional care. However, all his physical, mental, and emotional passion naturally laid on his own boyfriend, which infuriated and hurt her. (We three used to go travel for long-weekend getaways and hopped on fabulous gay bars).
Until he left, she could not get out her “mysterious”-LE suffering. I think it’s risky to keep in touch with your gay LO, until your LE is completely over. Then you may resume a basic, “carefree” level of friendship. But to make LE completely, you may have to stay NC for a while. (I don’t know how LC is working for you, though)
To Snowphoenix:
The problem is actually going to resolve itself in a matter of months. The reason LO invited me over was to show me some construction being done on his house. The reason? He is selling and moving 3,000 miles away.
His house is huge and extremely unusual; it may take a while to sell. But I know it will happen eventually, and he is TERRIBLE about keeping in touch.
So part of me chides myself for not being more self-disciplined; and part of me says, who cares, he’ll be gone by Christmas. He won’t keep in touch and I’ll never see him again. So whatever residual limerence problems I have will dissipate in time.
👍👍
Meanwhile, try to improve your health in whatever available means. Physical therapy exercises are great for people of all ages and all conditions, even those with wheel chairs — I watched how they are get helped in my PT center.
“Folded like a cheap suit.”
That made me laugh.
Thanks. I needed that..
I like your writing style Norma Desmond. Very chic and modish.
To MJ: Thank you for the nice compliment; you’re very easy to please.
Appreciate you for saying that ND. It was just hilarious to me because I did the same thing one time with LF when she called me over to apologize. (This after she pissed me off for ghosting me for almost 2 weeks.) I swore I’d never speak to her again, but..
I was like putty in her hands. Ice cream melting on a hot day. Weakened like rotting wood. Coming undone like a poorly sewn seam.
You know how it is.
The madness.. Don’t feel bad about that sparkling water though. All I got from LF was a Dr. Pepper.
To MJ:
LO is going on a business trip to France in two weeks. I am going to bluntly ask him to bring me something back, just to see what he does.
I have given him so many things and done so many things for him, I have the street cred to be able to be a little bit brazen in this way.
I have a girlfriend who criticizes me for giving things to LO, but it empowers me and emboldens me to be able to ask for a small favor here and there.
He is an artsy person with exquisite taste. I will be interested to see what he does with my request.
Norma,
I’m sorry to sound harsh here, but by making that request of your LO, you would be wittingly providing your LE with fuel, and probably prolonging it as a result. You could spend the whole week waiting and anticipating, and then the aftermath ruminating and cursing if he doesn’t come up trumps, or loving him even more if he does. Effect on limerence: ⬆️⬆️⬆️
If you do ask him to bring something back, please do it knowingly of those facts. Consider if you do really want to. What’s the anticipated good outcome?
Norma,
I totally agree with LaR, your request WILL elongate your LE Regardless whether he brings a gift or not.
If he truly cares for you as a friend, he would bring something perhaps small to you; if you think you deserve something from him because you’ve given him so much, then your going is not sincere or caring, but the bait for an eternally Unavailable LO.
Do you think your body and mind can take further LE inflictions and pains?
Sorry that i can never speak as diplomatically as LaR, I often talk and think like an Aspie although I am not a one.
Wish you well!
I agree @Norma
I sincerely doubt you could manipulate the situation to your advantage by asking LO to bring you a gift. No matter what he does, it’ll likely just prolong your agony.
Personally, I feel you could step away right now. Use his time in France to just…be Norma…heal…hibernate…whatever. But not get dug in further. What seems to be happening now is…you’re trying to grab a last vestige of control…but would it be enough?
How many more days do you have to give this thing? Minutes? Seconds? Personally, that is what I have asked myself recently. The answer for me, is zero.
I speak only from my own vantage point, and like others, I apologize if this sounds harsh…but one of the other assets of this space, for me, has often been honest reactions from the other limerents.
I believe there is an angle to gift giving. Because we do want the other person to know we like and care about them. Plus I do believe we have some small shred of hope they will reciprocate in what ever little way. In any way, that would be a good (bad?) thing for our dopamine dependent limerent minds..
I was always going out of my way for LF. Getting her ice, fruit, candy, whatever. It was always my way of saying without saying, I really like you and that is why I’m doing this for you. I’ll do it as often as I like and as long as you’ll put up with it. Because maybe, just maybe, you’ll figure out I’m really interested..
Of course this also could be considered simping and simping is really so God awful cringe, when you really take a look at it. But I guess I’m just desperate and I’ll take a chance anyway. If it made her happy for 60 seconds, and she gave me a little praise, that’s all that mattered.
Ooo the gifting topic ! Guilty gift-giver here.
Norma,
I think the only thing you should ask your LO to bring is your long awaited oil painting!!
Regarding the gift-giving issue: LO and I have a pretty honest relationship, given the bizarre circumstances. I tell him often, “I don’t want ANYTHING from you at gunpoint, ever. Whatever you do has to be heartfelt.” So when I ask him to bring me a souvenir, I offer him the chance to refuse. If he says no, fine. If he says yes and doesn’t bring anything, I am certainly prepared, since I have been waiting for my oil painting for two years.
I don’t have a huge emotional investment in this, since he has a history of unreliability.
I see this relationship as expendable, so I see no harm in asking.
Hi Norma D. !
Yes, I thought as much, hence my tongue in cheek comment re: the oil painting 😉
Expect nothing indeed.
Seriously though, he should get that painting back to you…. Très vite !
To Imho:
Maybe I will end up with a nifty refrigerator magnet.
I want to see what he does with my request. He’s a high-end designer and he could surprise me.
On the other hand, if he does nothing, I have lost nothing.
Norma,
You’ll lose more peace of your mind… started already….
Wish you well.
@MJ.
So your mind is still on the topic of gifts? Well, I won’t comment on that, because I don’t want to hurt your feelings. Friends don’t go out of their way to hurt one another’s feelings, do they now? And I’m nothing if not a good friend. (They “say I am the kindest, am the kindest”. No, wait. Nobody actually says that about me in real life. Those are the lyrics to a Prince song). 🙂
My LO used to buy me gifts. He would buy me comic books, bizarrely enough, and leave them on my doorstep. Honestly, I’m not a violent man by any means, but I felt like throwing them at him. “Oh my God! Not another comic book! How old do you think I am? Twenty-two going on six? You poor sweet fool. Why can’t you see the truth? I don’t want any more comic books. I can buy my own comic books. I have a library’s worth of comic books. I only want … YOU!” 🤣
He also used to buy his then-girlfriend some interesting presents. Her priceless response? “I’ll, um, say thank you for it when I work out what it is…” (NOT scented candles, I presume? She shared my aversion to synthetic odours and anything made of wax). 🙄😲
It’s something of a disturbing theme in my life – heterosexual men infantilising me. And I have no idea why they think they can get away with it, because I really am **cough, cough** MUCH more intelligent than most of them. I’m so disappointed that none of them have formally recognised my genius yet. 😜🤣😁
Do you know what happened to me in my favourite cafe the other day? The chef/owner of the business picked up my poor widdle right arm (by the wrist, no less!) and moved it, so he could collect my empty plate! He also spoke to me gruffly albeit sarcastically: “Get out of the way!” Although I laughed, I was mortified. What do I have to do to get a little respect? I know in most of the establishments I patronise I’m considered “part of the furniture”, figuratively speaking. But I don’t care to be treated like … literal furniture. 😲
Then, later on the same day, I visited a different restaurant. The waiter, some insufferable pipsqueak of a young man, wanted to argue with me about the order. Being the nice guy that I am, I studied the receipt and eventually told him a truth he couldn’t deny: “Mm, this is actually someone else’s order. My number is 23.”
The pipsqueak waiter eventually brought me the right order. I smiled at him and said: “All’s well that ends well.” Pipsqueak Waiter grinned at me and said: “Thanks, mate!” I muttered: “Don’t call me mate. I’m not your mate.” (Okay. I’m fibbing about the last part. I was fine with being called “mate” by Insufferable Pipsqueak). 😜
Do you see what I did there? That, my friend, is called “shame repair”. Neither of my parents could model this behaviour for me as a child, but I taught myself how to do it as an adult…
Here’s how it works. Basically, someone makes a mistake. Instead of shaming the person for the mistake, I acknowledge the mistake and also signal that it’s okay the person made a mistake and that our relationship isn’t damaged by the slip-up. In essence, bonding occurs over shared humour about the mistake and nobody feels the diabolical urge to self-punish/wallow in bad feelings indefinitely.
What has this got to do with limerence? Why, I’m so glad you asked! I suspect limerents are often people (maybe perfectionists?) who have a really hard time dealing with feelings of shame, and so they would usually rather outright deny mistakes than simply admitting mistakes (to themselves and to others). This unwillingness to own up to even little errors can keep people trapped in delusion.
See, I told you I’m nothing if not a good friend! 🤣
MJ,
Just want to let you know that I saw your responding post to me yesterday but it was swept away really fast before I could find time to reply (had one breadcrumb of thought that is not relevant)…
Now, you’ve got your most revered, potent *cough, cough* syrup, I’ll leave you to the grandpa’s hands…
Ciao!
“Limerents are often people (maybe perfectionists?) who have a really hard time dealing with feelings of shame, and so they would usually rather outright deny mistakes than simply admitting mistakes (to themselves and to others). This unwillingness to own up to even little errors can keep people trapped in delusion.”
@Sammy,
I think you’re right and especially about the perfectionist part. There is a great fact to my gift giving that is associated with much shame. It’s like trying to lift myself up to the other person while knowing I’m going to let them down at some point. Either in some dumbass reaction I have/say to something or in something I reveal about my past. Why can’t it ever be easy man?? You’re so right about delusional type thinking. It’s so easy to get stuck there..
Your story was funny. Thank you for that. I needed the laugh. I’m thinking about changing my screen name to Pipsqueak Waiter now.. 🤣🤣
“Now, you’ve got your most revered, potent *cough, cough* syrup, I’ll leave you to the grandpa’s hands…”
C’mon @Snow, no need to not put your 2 cents in. Can’t you and Sammy share the love and Wisdom? What would Lwl be like without your lively banter, wit and charm??
MJ 💦 ,
You just want to laugh at me as a crawling mirror to another “cockroach”🪳s’ shadow 👤 … Shame on you 😭 MJ🔨!
🛐, How 🔛 🌎 🙄 an immortal 🐦🔥 ⚧️ to a 🪞🪳🔍 👀 ⁉️ My 5 thousand year old ancestors must have had some unresolved feuds…. thus 😔 eternal 🔄 “Romeo ❤️🩹 Juliet” 🥹 …
@Snow,
Well I hope I didn’t offend you. You’re losing me with all the icon-ography. My old ass doesn’t want to solve a puzzle at this hour. Plus I don’t have my reading spectacles on either, so I can’t decipher your codes.
Perhaps you could re-type that out in proper Queens English so my un-educated dumbass can put 2 and 2 together..
MJ 💦,
Offend me? You night be able to do it after you get out of your current “LE”! Feel free to say anything you wish if they can amuse you… 🃏
I’m merciful to send you only a half of the message in ❄️’s own “icon-ography“, compared to ones that has no sign of Queen’s tongue!
Retype my post? Nay, it’s designed for you to crack them open when you feel lonely or teary in some night….If your coughing grandpa can, you can!
Ciao 🤝
Hi @Norma
ooof. Sorry babe. Sorry for all the shenanigans from your LO. Don’t be too hard on yourself.
I am working with a limerence-focused therapist right now and she said that very often LO’s get a bit crazed when their Limerents decide to step away. When I heard that, I was shocked. I thought, all this time, that I had been the one totally dependent on my LO…but, as I understand it, often, it’s a two way street….
I find it very funny that your LO says he prefers to be a giving person. HA. Well, in my opinion, anyone that has to SAY they are giving, is probably not. One doesn’t have to talk about it to do it. And, if you are a giving person, you just are, and you don’t have to explain it. People KNOW it.
I can totally understand why you have been in his thrall given what you’ve said about your life and state of mind leading up to it. But, after all you’ve done for yourself these days, I can also understand why you don’t feel totally the same about him, now.
I can also understand why you accepted the invitation — don’t be too harsh with yourself. It happens. The important thing is, the needle has moved, clearly, on how you see him. You see his flaws — and you did not see that before.
Actually, I don’t think, in the beginning, when you first shared your story here, that you would have EVER have said this:
“…but I am a funny and lively person…”
and now you have! And…I am so glad to hear you say it. YES! Go with that 🙂 You are, and you’re a wonderful writer with a very sharp point of view and clear way of expressing yourself. All those good things…and I’m sure there are even more.
x
csc
CSC 🤖,
“She said that very often LO’s get a bit crazed when their Limerents decide to step away.“
That’s not always true! Only insecure, Narc, Sensor, 💩 💩 LOs do It! I was LO many more times than being a limerent; even so insecure with my cptsd, I had ZERO interests in dangling those eye-drilling, pet limerents behind my heels, and NEVER gave anyone any hope that they’d have a chance by making some efforts — Glimmer cannot be cultivated, but friendship can.
If I like them as a friend and they’re decent enough, I’ll keep a genuine friendship with them, if they can deal with their “LE”. No one had ever misunderstood my messages after I made my stand clear.
Dallying at someone else’s heart and emotions, for their own validations or ego, is the most cruel things one could do in peace time, IMO.
Please do not generalize all LOs! (Eg. LaR’s MFF)
@snow
I said “very often” not “all the time”, ergo, it does not mean every LO.
If that was confusing, I hope this clarified it for you, and helps you feel better.
“Very often” is a strong generalization. How about, “some LOs sometimes…”?
I’m not feeling anything bad, just picky about words and their connotation, since I’m still an ESL.
But I do get 😠 upon hearing those 🐕 L 🅾️’s behaviors towards our limerent’s “blind” eyes and wishful thinking… They don’t have true kindness…. 🐕 L🅾️🥊!
🏵️ 🍅 🌱
Let’s split the difference and say “sometimes”. That ought to do it! 🙂
🤖,
Okay! 🤝
I also know that CMC does not 🪝her pet limrerents but 🏃🏻♀️ away from them….
As I was name-dropped (or my LO was), I’ll say I think it’s a mixed bag. For every LO like my MFF (who is nowadays continuing very helpful practices to containing and reducing the LE situation that we’d wittingly built), you seem to get others who seem to do the opposite and enjoy the attention and pulling their limerent’s string. It just depends on the character of the individual ‘LO’ – i.e. every human character is different! So yeah, the ‘split the difference’ between the two of you seems totally fair.
LaR,
My platonic, poet LO&Lim #1 was saint like, and I couldn’t forget his deeply devoted, profound sad eyes for years (the only ghost that 👽 was jealous of), which might have unconsciously prevented me from ever wrapping an easy string around any man’s neck, one of which was even stretched onto my path in LE bent knees (literally), losing its normal amount of human integrity and pride. After all, we’re not chimps!
Very glad to 👂 and 👁️ your progress in your LE with MFF.
🍅
Sounds like LE1 was mutual? And they really can be the hardest ones to let go of.
It is strange because sometimes the right behaviour of a ‘saint’ LO in these situations is to back off and give the limerent space. And that could seem/feel like a very counterintuitive and ‘unsaintly’ thing to do at the time, if the limerent themselves doesn’t properly back off. Of course if both parties are limerent *and* LO, well that’s just way more layers on the 🧅 of letting go and 🛸
🌽 🌱 , I found your post now right after posting the earlier one.
I’ve mentioned before that all my “LEs” before the current one was reciprocated either in EA or PA within a couple of months — no “xLO” was married or engaged. So all previous ones might not qualify as “LE”, but failed relationship.
Except LE 4.5 & 7, I was one who ultimately pulled away from all x”LEs” for my total wellbeing…
My definition of “saint” is heavily influenced by traditional COO & Buddhism, differing from its concept of the modern COO and of the West. I haven’t met anyone who is both Glimmering and Saintly — they are either a glimmering “devil” or earthen “saint”… and my main color is 🏵️ 🌱 mixed with hundreds of indescribable hues — a wired chameleon….
C’est la vie! 🥹 🤣
Norma,
That reminds me of my XLO who also seems to have a very unrealistic view of himself, what he is giving in a friendship etc. I also think he got his Myer Briggs personality completely wrong by answering the questions as he perceives himself which is not quite how he acts in reality.
I think you are in a good path, and once he‘s gone you will be so far down that path that you won’t miss him that much, or stop missing him after a while soon.
To Mila:
Thank you for saying that. I scratch my head at some of the things LO says about himself. He said, “I’m a sweet guy,” which may be true, but he bears a strong resemblance to his Grinch coffee mug. I don’t see “sweet” and I don’t see “generous.”
I told MJ above that I am asking LO to bring me something back from France. His client is putting him up at the Ritz in Paris. That should be interesting.
https://youtu.be/LO590EPuMGk?si=HVj2oEnxlCFfBMma — 6 Signs of a Stupid Person — Stoicism
https://youtu.be/CyT5fSvaPBU?si=EOkDOThJEqgLWpDY — A Man With No Friends Or A Very Small Circle is a Very, Very Secure Man | Anthony Hopkins
https://youtu.be/t5-QjIBIEMY?si=8x2s9ONYX6F6DTHt — The Strong Woman Who Rebuilds Herself Alone | Anthony Hopkins
Just wanted to say hi to everyone, after many years of not understanding why I was attracted to this one person and finding out that Limerence was it’s been a massive learning curve and this site is amazing. Hope I can share my story of dealing with a LO who was a Narcissist as well 😔
Hi Phil and welcome.
Sorry just seeing your message now.
The LWL community is very welcoming and respectful.
Please feel free to share your thoughts and learnings for us to all benefit from.
Best wishes
Thank you ☺️
Welcome Phil. Me too. Been here for a week and have found so many answers. Good to have you here
Hi, Phil. I was married to a narcissist for 20 years, and it was no picnic. No idea if my LO is a narcissist. I’m not really that concerned, because thankfully the LE is petering out. Please feel free to share if you are so inclined.
Csc,
Coming down the bottom here out of sensitivity to your ‘not hijacking’ point, despite MJ’s grace in saying not to worry.
Sorry that my last message to you got gnarly and might have appeared to have been critical of 📱🚫 while trying to make you feel better about the 👍!
I didn’t know the backstory to the block at the time. Now I do, I applaud your 💪💪 in reaching that decision and the reasons you gave for it. Sending you ✊️ and agreement with the others who have already praised your decision.
The next chapter starts now. Trust your own mind and what it is telling you! We here are but distant 👻👻 with half facts. We/I are here to listen and support in any way that’s useful though. Solidarity.
Thank you dear LaR
No no I did not feel upset by anything you said. Just wanted to fill you in. 😊
After all the text and plans drama last week feeling so excited only to be disappointed, and blocking him…I’m just spent. I don’t know if he would even be in touch. It’s possible that my curt replies to his weird entreaties for my time put him off. I have no clue… And will have no clue. Like everything with this particular LO, it’s utterly ambiguous, and a push-pull scenario. He is a master flirt and a master mixed signalist. He has always come closer and been braver when I go away. Getting all curious, supposedly missing me etc…upoing the ante r cently telling me he was so excited for plans together ..That’s all one thing… But cancelling last minute with a lame and confusing excuse (then trying to salvage the whole thing at 8am the following morning…all of a sudden he was actually free to get together that morning to which my reply was “sorry but I’m already busy today”) ..it just felt like I was being asked to jump on command. I may be utterly besotted but I’m never a doormat.
My heart is hurting and I am ruminating I did the wrong thing, was too harsh…turned him away when it was so close…but…I have done what I’ve done and I’m not going back now. I think, on balance his pattern is one of not keeping to things he says he will do, so, I’m better off. In my journal I wrote that I expected he would cancel…it was not a huge shock. I have prior experience with this kind of young man…so, I don’t want to keep wondering why or what happened…it’s all over I think, and now I have to recover and pick up the pieces.i hope I will stop spiralling soon. It’s very painful. Been just a horrible day here… easily one of the saddest days in my life.
But I have big time lim-brain and am going through serious sadness ..to use MJ’S tear-shedding-scale today was definitely multiple Niagara Falls.
Whew. Sorry. But as others have said, sometimes it just helps to vent…forgive me.
♥️
https://youtu.be/69fgorez8Tg?si=3pky0zm0-ASXxrl_
💦 Melancholic piano for Sad Nights 💦
https://youtu.be/v4pzLNZAcc8?si=nqY688MppRbWlX3B
😿 A Rose in The Limerence Devil’s Garden 🥀
ooh ❄️
that piano is beautiful. thank you.
…the title…”you’re crying alone but nobody cares” is rough, though, ngl….
probably because it’s true….
ha
🤖,
I can’t change that title of tones…
Try 2nd piece with the cello and piano…
Your SO might care for you more and beyond you know… be extraordinarily cautious about leaving SO, when you are probably feeling negative about most of things in the world now…. Perhaps you can take a vacation alone for a while to quiet down your mind…
Good SO does not come around easily, especially at women’s middle age….
Feel better ❤️🩹!
ah yes ❄️
The cello is exquisite. And, I think the low vibrations in the cello’s notes help me to feel more deeply, to process physically, the things I can’t express outwardly or in words. 🙂
Yes, you are right about SO. I have been ignoring how I feel in my primary relationship for many years. But, he has always stood by me. I am going to need to be very thoughtful about my future.
I know I have been using LO to block all that. And, I have been using LO to block many things (grief over cancer, grief over my Dad’s death…grief over things that happened to me long ago…) If it weren’t so upsetting, it would be fascinating.
Despite being sad, I feel I am strong. At least now, having cut off the LE, I know, 100% that I am back in integrity. The moment I cut it off, I began to live in my truth again….Instead of all the lying I had been doing.
Thank you dear ❄️
You always have a unique and artistic point of view, are not timid, and I appreciate you.
csc
Hi csc,
I‘m so sorry ! It must have been agonizing. My LO2 was putting me through stuff like that too.
I think this is definitely a case of „me first“. You had to do an emergency cut.
Try to be kind to yourself! Maybe meet up with friendly, soothing persons to distract yourself a bit?
All the best!
hi @mila
thank you so much for this lovely advice and kind words. yes, I am definitely not able to be a doormat. not able to jump on command…no matter how badly i want LO, that is a place I never, ever go.
i am definitely going to be taking care of me, for a while. it’s actually kind of an interesting place to find myself….normally, i am pretty spartan in how i care for myself. but, for the first time in my life, i’m considering taking a day off and going to a spa. and i’ve made a list of pastries I want. I am putting work on the back burner, and allowing myself to physically rest.
I have a dear friend coming to town in April and she’ll be here for over a month. That will help me a lot.
The thing, now, other than my heartache, that is going to be hard, is figuring out whether I need to leave my SO. I’ve got a pattern of intense limerences a mile long and I need to identify where the source is. I believe it’s unmet needs….I am going to have to build my strength back up so I can finally take an honest look at everything, in time.
But for now…I am just going one day at a time…. (one spa day.) haha 🙂
I have to make little jokes, or I will cry. But thank you so much, for all your care. I am in awe of how empathetic you always are — and if you ever need help being a little more ruthless, let me know. Always happy to cheer you on, in that department, if you need someone to do it!
csc
Hi CSC,
spa day sounds amazing, can I come🙈
I think it’s a very good thing you care for yourself and figure out if you still have a life with SO or not. That’s so much more important than that young guy.
I cannot help much with this life decision, but I wish you all the best and a clear mind!
Thank you for offering to help me being ruthless! I think no one offered that to me yet! The thing is, I feel best and calm when I understand people and can be empathetic. Maybe it’s a fear of not being loved and a fear of confrontation, but still, it does me good somehow.
But if I ever need being ruthless, i‘ll call on you , but I have to say, you don’t seem very ruthless to me either 🙈
hi Mila
Well, people here reciprocate and are emotionally invested and vulnerable with each other. People can disagree be honest with each other, and overall, everyone seems grateful and respectful of one another….and so, the ruthless side is not directed here! This is a space where everyone should feel very safe. But, it’s also a place where people support each other when hard (possibly ruthless) decisions need to be made…
Anyway – warm-hearted, or ruthless…I will try and do the best I can to support others, because I am grateful for the support I have recieved!
x csc
Hi csc,
It’s a great site and I try to support too from time to time, but I think no one should feel obligated. If someone wants to disappear for a while or forever, or doesn’t have time or the mind to answer, they (you)shouldn’t feel that they have to. We have already have so many obligations in the real world!
I appreciate kind words and support here a lot, they sometimes even made me cry, but I try not to get too hung up or dependent on the site.
CSC – hearing you and feeling something similar. Let’s make a pact : we’ve both done the right thing and neither of us are going back!!
Wow, @JustMe
I read your news, and yes, we are definitely on similar ground.
Yes, I have deleted all of it (and emptied the trash). He is totally blocked and while there is a way to check and see if he’s been in touch, when I think of going in and doing that, I feel my chest constrict. I’m going to listen to what my body is telling me…that this whole situationship is poison.
A pact sounds like a good idea. It will be a slog, though. It will not have the excitement of the back and forth with LO…we need to expect it will be utterly thankless for a while…
This is not my first rodeo with limerence (however it’s been one of my worst!)…so, I can also say, if we stay on the coursem we will have moments that are really uplifting and enlightening. For instance, hard to imagine, but there will be a point where we feel interested in something we loved to do, before we started in with LO…that is always an amazing moment.
If you do slip up, don’t worry. I certainly have. But, I can tell you, for sure, I am not going back in. I am done. I’m going to be in a lot of pain, and very confused. But, it’s become clear to me LO is not an option, despite his confusing antics….and I am going to look forward, as much as I can.
Hang in there. Reach out anytime you like. I’d love to see how you are doing. And I’ll try to provide some updates as I go, as well!
csc
CSC,
Sorry you are hurting today Friend. I will take on some your sorrow this evening as I go to my job and see my old friend ignore me all night and forget I was ever human to her. It’s a gut wrenching sorrow and I almost feel like bawling myself and calling off, but it’s senseless to be so whimp-ass and pathetic about it. I’m the one who was lied to, took the bait and now lay heavy in regret.. Holy crap it’s so bad.. I’m better than this right??
Anyway, just wanted to say hey and I hope you overcome the sorrow. It just takes time, maybe weeks or months, but yes, better days will come..
So I hear.. 🤔
@MJ
Hi Friend ♥️ thank you
I am going to write to you with compassion. It is needed! Stat!
MJ You are not pathetic. You are not worthless or any of the things you say.
Am I those things? No? Then my friend neither are you so accept my words.
I feel those things about myself, too. You are not alone in how you feel. But you do not deserve to feel that way.
You’ve been run emotionally ragged these days. it does not serve, at this time, to lay blame for that.
What might help is just to feel heard, you are not alone…Tonight, just take your breaths and that is all you need to do at work. Take breaths. If you need to, go into the bathroom and cry, just for release of your nerves. It is ok to do that.
There is nothing wrong with you. This stuff hurts. But it is not a verdict on your worth as a person. No.
Just get through, then I f you can, tell me how it goes.
Hugs
csc
Oops @MJ it’s me csc I’m on the bus and it’s hella bumpy so I hit the a instead of the s!
Thank you for the support. I probably won’t let loose while I’m at work. (That will be for the car later..)
It still isn’t hurting me like it was with LO either, but it still is nonetheless hurtful. I am trying very hard not to resent or hate her for it.
Appreciate your positive affirmation today. Keeping your words with me tonight.. 🤗
My store gas taken a turn this week, and whilst it’s made me sad, it has also given me some hope.
I have been trying to go LC with my work colleague LO for about a week and a half. Every day she has either text or called. On Monday we had a work disagreement, and she hasn’t spoken to me since. I know it’s only 2 days but to go to nothing – well, the silence is deafening. I have stayed positive and reminded myself that this is what I’ve actually wanted. And yet….
I was going to give it until the weekend and then delete her number if she hadn’t contacted me . But I’ve been sitting here, reflecting, and I thought “why don’t you just delete it now?”.
So I have
Whattsapp messages and all the calls from her number.
I’m conflicted. Any advice?
It’s supposed to say my story has taken a turn…. 🙄
Expect to feel lows, but stick to and watch your lows, do NOT run away from it…. you’ll feel lightened and liberated soon…
Add: don’t use alcohol or other stuff to numb the pain — literally some chemical reaction is occurring in the brain… you just have to feel it to the full degree, then like a bad headache or cold, it will go away…
Expect feeling lows from 4-10 weeks… backsliding is expected and okay, then start again; the lows would decrease each time…
An psychologist’s lived advice —
“Real liberation comes not from glossing over or repressing painful states of feeling, but only from experiencing them to the full.”
-Carl Jung
Thank you. Appreciate your words
I think that this is a good development Justmeandmyobsessions – taking control of the situation is very empowering and (although everyone’s LE is different) I think it was the right move for you. Its astonishing that you have felt strong enough to do this after the drama of the last few weeks, so I say ‘Well Done”.
I think my only advice is – don’t be surprised if you backslide on your convictions and experience some doubt in the next few days. This is a normal development, you can probably expect it to happen – but it does not mean that you’ve done the wrong thing. Snow is right, you will begin to feel better. Just expect to feel worse before you feel better, I guess?
Also, when I experienced the backsliding feelings (‘LO wasn’t that bad, maybe I’ve been hasty’, etc), it was all lim-brain doing the talking for good or for ill. The point is that you need distance from this person in order to be able to think straight. Take that time now. Of course, if you do backslide completely, we are all here for you to listen to the ranting and raving, etc 🙂
Bewitched, jinx! 😂
Thank you. I can absolutely see what you mean re the backsliding. I only deleted her number 6 hours ago and I’m already regretting it. But I try to keep thinking about how unhappy my LE with her has made me, and how this just shows how our “friendship” has been all about what she has been getting out of it, and after a minor disagreement at work she’s basically discarded me.
@justme
The first day after I blocked I had MAJOR doubt. I still felt it today. My doubt took the form of “what if I misunderstood? Or hurt LO without realizing it!? Or what if he felt the same but I wasn’t sensitive enough to understand!??”Etc …on and on.
It was terrible and confusing. I asked my therapist about how to deal with this questioning…where are these questions coming from and are they real?
She said “it’s bargaining. You’re in the bargainimg stage of grief when you do that.”
Does that help you? It’s normal to doubt your decision. Grief is normal. It’s awful, but it is what you will go through because this is a loss. Even tho LO is still alive, still accessible in a way, the whole LE may be over…and there will be grief to go through around that.
Take it one day, one minute at a time. One second if you must
You are right…you were miserable. That’s why you came here to begin with. If you can, stay strong Just Me ♥️
Bargaining stage of grief? That makes sense. That explains a lot.
This brought back memories of a previous LO….He and his wife were friends with my SO and me, but she had been mean to me the whole time, so finally we had a falling-out and broke off relations with them.
But I was freakin’ miserable. Kept wondering if we did the right thing, if we were too harsh, if we could’ve worked things out. But a couple of months later, after we saw each other in public and tried working things out again, I soon saw that this was impossible and brought back stress I didn’t want in my life.
I wanted to be friends with LO still, but his behavior also made me wonder if he wasn’t the friend I thought he was. It took years to get over him, but eventually it became clear that he had some strong narcissistic traits and that he was manipulative with me. I had evidence of him being deceitful, too. Oh yeah, and I also realized how abusive he was with his kids. But I don’t want to get into that.
Just me – and also partly MJ (who I didn’t have a chance to reply to yet),
I can hear from both of your stories that you are in the thick of it. An unexpected fight/disagreement happened and you are upset and hurt, and thus want to say good riddance to your LO/LF. Please remember that this is also a symptom of an LE (MJ, sorry to generalize). Everything negative (or even neutral with a hint or slight possibility of being negative) from them is amplified in your brain – and you see red! You say: “I’ll never let them close again! That’ll show them!”
And then, after awhile your addiction knocks on your door again. You are now upset that they haven’t reached out to you, they’re not missing you, seeing how wrong they were. You backtrack, perhaps convince yourself that you were the bad guy and that you should go apologize, and an all the more emotional reunion will occur. They will see what they were about to miss out on.
Been there, done that! My pride kept me away for a few weeks, but then my limerence won. My advice would be to first just acknowledge that everything is amplified in your mind and to try to take a breather, go hit a punching bag or find another safe way to let out your frustration. All the better if you can talk to someone else about it.
Don’t get me wrong, this could be the point where you realize you have to let go of the LE. But realize that you will probably backtrack, and that’s ok. You’re not quite there yet.
@trifles
this is so well said. you are completely right and this is the well-worn path of many limerents.
you are right about the amplification. I’m at a point where I feel like it will never not be amplified. So, I will never be able to deal with it. So, no time like the present to cut it off.
It will never be easy, it will never feel like closure…I certainly have not let go of my LE (yet). but if I don’t close the door, I never will.
I feel like the difference you are describing is that…there are points where it’s still about how LO feels. “How will they feel if I do… XYZ!” as you say “I’ll show them!”
I feel like the real turning point is when the limerent sees “I need to show ME.” For myself, it’s been looking at all the wasted days, the wasted energy…the pain. And saying that I do not know the future…but I cannot stay where I have been. It’s frightening. But, what is really frightening to me is being so stuck, never moving on….
Thank you for this great insight – while I feel like I am pretty much settled in for the hard part…your description has helped me understand I will need to be very, very resilient to watch for any hairline cracks in my armor.
csc
@trifles and @csc. Thanks for your words and encouragement. They’re bringing me comfort tonight.
CSC and JustMe,
I’m catching up on an exceptionally active day on LwL. I wonder if the moons and planets are in a unique position influencing all this action.
I admire your decisiveness to block your LOs and I wish you the best on that bid to freedom.
I’ve not done this but certainly should have done a long while back before becoming trusted friends – sigh !
If I ever get a new glimmer I will know what to do.
You are both very inspiring. I’m sure it’s not easy and you are suffering a great deal the last 24 to 48 hours and more to come. My heart goes out to you both.
Stay strong and kind to yourselves.
💃,
“I wonder if the moons and planets are in a unique position influencing all this action.“
The watchful Uranus shockingly coughed
Shook up the cozy, silent INFP palace
Hu’s sweet powder scattered in the Solar ring
Swiftly dashed LE colorful cries out of LwL edges….
🐦🔥
@csc I’ve just re read your post properly, and you are describing exactly where I am, although I’m only 3 days into this particular phase. As a musician, the amplification is screaming at me and the feedback is screeching. Your words have actually made me cry. I’ll admit that. Not in a bad way, but because it all rings so true. They’re comforting, thank you.
Let’s find a way through this both as a partnership and as part of this fabulous community.
@csc: “She said “it’s bargaining. You’re in the bargainimg stage of grief when you do that.”
Does that help you? It’s normal to doubt your decision. Grief is normal.”
It absolutely does, and makes perfect sense.
“You are right…you were miserable. That’s why you came here to begin with. If you can, stay strong Just Me ♥️”. Means a lot that someone understands, as I know that everyone here does. Thank you again.
@justme
Good morning 😊
I’m glad you saw my message
Yes, you hang in there today. For me day 3 is seriously a hard one historically — in all my limerences. It’s like drug withdrawal it absolutely does have a timetable for the panic, the physical effects. Maybe if you can try to see it as a fascinating experience (if also a horrific one)…
You hang in there, Just Me!!!! I am here and will pop back later. One minute, one second, at a time if you have to. ♥️🐢
I’m ok this morning. I usually crumble around 1pm….we shall see.
csc
I’m am artist too…not music. Visual. Your feedback analogy is amazing
hi @imho
just wanted to say thank you for the encouragement. I feel at this point that things are going to be ugly for a while, with me…but i cannot, cannot, go backwards.
i must go forwards. the idea of spending another spring, another beautiful summer, in agony, so far out of integrity…a liar, a mess…I just cannot do it.
I must look to the future, even though I have NO clue what it holds. I must believe it will be better than where I’ve been, spiralling for a year of my precious life. Aaagh!
I must be patient with myself and hold steady. I can definitely do it. It’s going to hurt, but I can absolutely do it. There is NO reason I cannot….other than a bit of pain. And I can take that.
I have a good therapist. That’s helping. She gets the limerence as an addiction thing, for sure. She also gets why addiction happens–how it takes root, in general, and what grief is, and how it plays out…super enlightening. And, I also have a very stoic nature, (the silver lining of an abusive situation through my childhood).
I fell back a bit, but technically I’d been NC for about a month until the text-plans-barrage from LO…so…I am hopping back on the NC wagon and reenforcing it with a total block, because if he reaches out again, I do not want to know. Too tempting, too distracting…too damaging… I have to protect myself from any triggering LO scenarios. I am even having a good friend to go in and check my blocked messages, and delete everything in there. S(he is not to make any indication whether there was anything in there, or not)
Right now, not backsliding is way more important to me than staying in it. At some point, LO will recede. I know this. And I will be free.
And technically…and this is no small thing….the moment you block and delete your LO, the moment you cut them out of your life, no matter how you do it — even if it’s sh*tty and not kind or whatever….the moment you do that, you are (technically) 100% back in integrity. To me, that’s huge. I’ve lived the last 3 years a liar.
Thank you @Trifles for the mention. I’m not so much seeing red as I am steeped in disappointment right now. I think it’s because LF said she wasn’t the judgemental type and then played me for a damn fool about it. Of course this would be a conditional statement. Why didn’t I see that? Lord knows her wranglings with the married Dude make her a freaking Saint. But I’m not judging nor holding no grudges am I?
No, I must keep it together Lwl Brethren..
In one of my motivational feeds the other day I read a quote that makes perfect sense in this instance..
“When you judge another, you do not define them. You define yourself”
I’m MJ of Lwl, and I approve this message.. 😁😁
Thank you @imho. Your words mean a lot. She’s basically ghosting me obviously because if our work disagreement, despite previously claiming that she’s not into hold a grudge. I’m disappointed that our friendship appears to mean so little – but then I always knew that. I’ve deleted her number but not blocked her, which perhaps I should’ve done. At least it means I can’t be looking her up. The biggest thing is that I keep reminding myself that I was trying to withdraw – she’s doing that for me. But yes, it’s painful.
My anxiety is through the roof today after deleting LOs number yesterday. I know it’s the right thing, but there’s grief, anger, sadness etc etc. I know I’ve taken control – so why do I feel so utterly OUT of control??
This really sucks, doesn’t it??
Dear Justmeandmyobsessions,
Of course it sucks. But what would suck more would be climbing back down from the ‘stand’ you’ve taken. I am not saying this because the deleting is a “Take That!” moment to LO because I think that sort of thinking has to be very very balanced*. But I am saying it because I think what will be healing for you is getting to the point where you are not taking decisions for her reaction but only for yourself (at the moment perhaps there is a bit of both?). Climbing back down will undo all of that, so you must stay the course, if you can.
*what I mean by balance is the honest examination of motivation for doing something. I think its ok if you are not doing something simply to hurt LO – if it ends up hurting them a little bit but is massively helping for you to heal, then that’s probably worthwhile (as long as there is no backsliding, that will just confuse everybody and lead to drama). I think taking oneself out of LO’s orbit is usually justified and okay – due to the nature of limerence it probably means a lot less to them than we’d like to imagine (unless there is a very strong interpersonal connection, or they are depending on us for work or something, or they are in some way vulnerable (but not toxic)).
I am 100% convinced that the limerent also needs to work on themselves, though because so much of this is a self-imposed altered state. That’s a bit deeper and it is work for later. There was a useful post about it during the week from a new poster here. I will see if I can dig it out…
Stay strong Justme!!
JustMe,
Maybe seek whatever distractions you can find right now to help your brain focus on something else. You have cut the supply to the habits that feed those feel good brain chemicals.
Its a shock to your system, I’m sure.
Maybe the weekend will help a bit to get perspective if you don’t work weekends.
Bewitched,
you give great advice as one further along to the exit. The post you mentioned I think has been removed ( if the same one from an SO).
@csc thank you so much for that. You’re doing so well and have inspired me and made me determined to see this through. I refuse to be her doormat anymore. Keeping up to date with you would be fantastic. Thank you.
@justme
What you are feeling is totally normal. Kind of like getting the sweats before you clear a fever.
Try to get through. You can. If possible, can you try to observe how you feel….and maybe even marvel at how your body is so connected to cause this. When it passes you will have a new appreciation of what addiction withdrawal really is.
You can do this. Just minute by minute second by second you can get through.
I totally get it was there myself it is horrible.
Oops csc 🫠 keep making that typo!
@Bewitched and @imho. I’m sorry it’s taken me a while to see your posts – I’m still figuring how this chat works! I just wanted to say thank you so much for your thoughts and suggestions. I really appreciate you taking the time on the account of little-old-me.
Hi friends.
Sorry – another update. Really need to get this one off my chest.
About an hour ago, I was typing a reply to @Anna. During typing, my phone pinged. I knew it was LO, because whilst I still had her number, I assigned it its own ringtone, so that I could be forewarned that it was her. I ended my reply to Anna, and opened Whattsapp with a feeling of dread. What was she going to say? What angle was she going to come from this time?
When I opened the messages, I could not believe my eyes. She was asking for help with a work situation. “Can you help please🙏🏻”. Nothing for 3 days, then a work post on my personal number. She could’ve emailed me, but no. I’m certain that this was an excuse to test the waters. Not a mention of our disagreement, our “friendship”, or why she hasn’t spoken to me, or even asking why I hadn’t spoken to her. Just a narcissistic attempt to get me back under control using the only excuse she could think of. Being a professional, I replied with a thumbs up and sorted it. But that was it, a thumbs up and then I deleted her message.
Don’t get me wrong, I didn’t want contact from at her at all, but this just goes to show what many if you have said; I have and am being played with. Whether it’s subconscious or not – and I don’t think it is.
As an aside, I have my first counselling session today. It was arranged before I knew about limerence, and I’m conscious of Dr L’s thoughts on the risks of seeking counselling to deal with it. So my plan is go and try and get to the bottom of what my predisposition to these situations is. I’m hoping that some links to limerence will help me to understand that as well.
Justme,
I thought you blocked her on your phone? Have I misunderstood something?
I’ve said it before but I’ll be boring and say it again … our LOs just may not be thinking so much about every action they make towards us. We as limerents are so hyper vigilant to it all. So it could just be she wanted help with work at that point and felt like you could help her. I’m not trying to go soft on her, but I think we can’t be reminded of this too much – they didn’t always ask for the LO status, they don’t think about all this stuff that much! To me, her text when out last week and the memes over the weekend seem much more like ‘playing’ you than this work text does.
Hi LaR. I didn’t block her. I deleted her number. And having had time to turn down the amplifier, yes you are correct. I cannot lay all the responsibility at her door. I will definitely block her the next time.
I second LaR here. My guess is, she was a bit miffed by your work argument, that’s why she didn’t text and thought that you are just being miffed too and that’s why you didn’t text, and now wanted to make peace about it and show you that she still values your work advice even though you had that argument. Nothing more. Wouldn’t call that „playing“, only misjudging your frame of mind.
@Mila thank you for being one of the voices of reason. You are right.
block. her.
You do not need the stress that she might pop up any moment. You can always unblock but protect your peace of mind… What little you have at this juncture.
This will be unpopular but I do not care. you must protect your boundaries she is out of line
@justme
I should say if you need to write the shortest reply possible before you do like – sorry very busy today maybe so and so could help
Then, Block
But CSC, JM still needs to work with this person. Wouldn’t a block create more very awkward questions there than would a quiet withdrawal? Have to be super careful when there is overlap into work.
Thanks @csc. When she texts again there will be the shortest reply, and then the block button will be hit.
@LaR
she can email, through work, like a *normal colleague* when she needs something.
she chose to blow past that and go right to his personal #
so, to me, he should block on his personal #.
what’s next? getting these messages from her when he’s home, trying to focus on getting back his mental health? when he’s out with SO and trying to maintain? the last thing he needs, in my humble, semi-addled opinion, is LO getting all needy in a space that’s not a work space.
so yes, Team Block here! haha Rah! Rah! Rah! Go!
@justme
…have you considered, when you take that block step, getting yourself some kind of present, or taking yourself out for a fun lunch, or…otherwise doing something to celebrate?
something you do, totally alone, (no SO)….just to say “I did it.”
idk what you’d do…but maybe there’s something. something to mark the occasion.
just trying to make it more fun and less of an “oh nooooo” dread situation. lord knows i know that dread.
@csc that was my point exactly. There’s email, and teams to stay with. I know what the others are saying and I know I was angry and overreacting, but I still believe that there was an amount of “testing the water” . I am certain that there will be more, and that boundary will continue to be pushed. So yeah – Team Block, Rah Rah Rah. As for the idea of the self-reward, that’s brilliant.
Thank you all. I appreciate everyone’s viewpoints and suggestions.
I‘m with LaR here..
the least question- or aggression-provoking approach is best with work colleagues. Also, are you very very sure you are not going to unblock her later? Because you cannot do the block-unblock dance without seeming to play with her or being unstable. CSC will say that it doesn’t matter what you seem to her, but me, for my dignity it’s important to behave ok on my side. I know, we are not of the same spirit here;)
oooh, I love a good schism
here we go fellow limerents haha (the lovely, lovely kind and emotionally ornate LaR and Mila)
I agree with you @JustMe — LO needs to be directed right over to teams and email. No passing go, no collecting $200. Work stuff goes in work places.
As for all the ruminating over what LO feels…here it comes…the schism. I’m going to say….who cares???
The ruminating is staying in it. The ruminating, the back and forth, whatever! I mean, you have the rest of your life to have empathy for LO. There is no way to know how LO feels, even if you asked, it would be an utter quagmire. LO MAY be miffed, and MAY be sad, (may! who knows? I sure don’t!) …but LO will live.
You, on the other hand, are suffering and you know it for *certain*. So, you’re taking action on that. That’s all. She’s not actually part of the equation.
I love this space, I really do, but…we all spend so much time spiralling on what LO’s reaction, feelings etc. are, what they mean. We barely do for ourselves. Gee, if we actually did for ourselves, Dr. L might not have a blog. ha
and as to Mila’s point about block/unblock
i did a lot of research into what block/unblock means on various phones before i took that step– it wasn’t just out of anger, it was a tactical decision on my part. i have android, lo has apple.
if you block, you can unblock. the recipient doesn’t know they’re blocked. they just know you are not replying. that’s all. they’re not going to get some message like “you’ve been blocked”.
their messages don’t go back to them, saying “undeliverable”…they go thru. the blockee has no clue other than that you’re not replying. (if read-receipts are on, it looks like you haven’t read it, either…if they’re turned off, they literally have no clue, you are in a black bag they have no idea what you are doing or not doing.
@csc I think you and I are adamant on this one. I can’t block her atm, because I’ve deleted her number and all the texts and calls made from said number. But when it next appears. Yeah – gone. I need to stop worrying about how she’s feeling. She’s probably totally non-plussed, and it’s me who is doing the suffering for both of us. And it really isn’t my concern.
I truly value the input of each and every one of you.
CSC,
Re schisms:
It is a really wonderful thing about LwL how so many of us can disagree constructively. This ability is diminishing fast in people today, but this community is an exception. We shouldn’t underestimate it.
In that spirit, I’m going to throw myself back in.
Justme, think holistically. What is your best exit path from your LE, all things considered? How do you best get there?
CsC, I’m in awe of the decision you have made to go Block/NC. Seriously 💪. But I know if I’d done it in the situation I have of us working together, it would have backfired and made it worse. I just want JustMe to give his situation full thought before blocking. It took me six months of purposeful action to get to LC, with work in the equation.
That’s my last word on this though, I promise.
yeah @justme i totally get it. if she did write, i’d have to not even open the message, i’d have to just delete it right away. the whole thing is poison for me.
…i’m glad we are on the same page, but at the same time, sorry that we are. i have so much respect for the beautiful, loving people here, but, i am a bit different in my ways, i tend to get pretty cut and dried at a certain point. i feel a bit awkward that i am not more nuanced. but, i guess it takes all kinds. 🙂
for me, the hardest part, right now, is not doing the bargaining. even today, i’m looking back randomly, and thinking “gee, what if lo is avoidant because he is traumatized and i could have helped?” ..or…oh…this one will make you laugh…it’s pretty baroque:
“What if LO was dropped as a child, and he almost died. That little mark on his neck? What if that was where some tube went in, to remove swelling from his tiny infant brain and he never mentally developed fully? Maybe that is why he’s avoidant with ADHD!…and I never knew! OMG what if….what if I could have just allowed a little more time…actually tried to reschedule with him and…and….and he was actually in love with me but brain damage from childhood prevented him from expressing it in a timely way….”
if there is a bargaining Olympics I am Simone Biles…that up there is truly Gold Medal material haha
@csc: …”i’m glad we are on the same page, but at the same time, sorry that we are. i have so much respect for the beautiful, loving people here, but, i am a bit different in my ways, i tend to get pretty cut and dried at a certain point. i feel a bit awkward that i am not more nuanced. but, i guess it takes all kinds. 🙂”
Couldn’t have put it better. And, you know what? there is something here about recognising that we are (I am) the type who, when a certain point, all of a sudden empty our compassion-tanks and think “right. You’ve taken everything I had. Prepare for the bad stuff cos that’s all that’s left.”
I came across a beautiful quote recently:
“The most dangerous anger comes from someone with a good heart. They hold it in, they stay calm until one day they can’t anymore. Don’t push a good person too far”. I mean it all figuratively, of course. The only “danger” here is that LO has pushed me to the point of no return. We’re done. I’m absolutely determined.
@LaR: “Justme, think holistically. What is your best exit path from your LE, all things considered? How do you best get there?” Despite my doubts and anxiety today, I remain firmly in CSC’s team block camp (or in my case, team delete number). I knew a week ago that the general withdrawal to LC wasn’t going to work; wittingly or unwittingly, she wasn’t going to let it.
@justme
that is an interesting quote. it resonates in the all-or-nothing sense, and in the sense that i will try to use my anger if nothing else is available in the tank (like the i have the past few days).
…but i’m not sure i’m a ‘good person’ (uh…not being honest with my SO or even with LO about my relationship status? being sketchy af? yeppp, i’ll just admit that now I am sketchy AFFFFF)…but i definitely get the part about being pushed too far, and then needing to go into self-protect mode.
still, as of the big block-a-roo, I am back in integrity, technically. No more sketchy. I guess technically, no more sketchy person. Just a messed up one with a LOT of work to do, clearly. :/ ha
@csc:you are a good person. I think fundamentally we all are, which is why we sucked in by these people. They would never succeed with people who could see them coming. In the case of my LO , she was told exactly where she stood by a guy who spotted what was going on and sent her packing, which led to a meltdown that lasted at least 3 days (guess who got sucked into that?!) Allmof my LEs have been the same – on some level (I’ll go benefit if the doubt here and say subconsciously….) they see us L’s coming from a mile away
@justme
Ok wait…Just me….are you saying i was not totally slick and unobvious in my moony, starry-eyed drooling over lo? …because you seem to be saying my attitude of total idolatry was maybe something he picked up on. haha
my god, i cannot, cannot! look back on my cringey things yet…here i thought i was so under the radar (um, no!)…but…damn it feels good to know i will not be doing any *more* of those things. haha oh god, justme, the things I have done…yeep.
@csc – now I would never be that presumptuous…. 🤔😁
” She was asking for help with a work situation. “Can you help please🙏🏻”. Nothing for 3 days, then a work post on my personal number. She could’ve emailed me, but no. I’m certain that this was an excuse to test the waters. ”
It’s not an uncommon for an LO, or anybody else that your in a fluid relationship with, to use a flimsy pretext to do a line check on you.
I used to bust LO #4’s chops for not updating her site index. I’d been NC for 3 months and got an email with “Guess what?! I updated the index.” That’s how she broke the ice.
3 years after we said goodbye, I got a robo-email from her site telling me of some changes. I thought she’d already taken me off the list. It kind of pissed me off. Instead of simply blocking the email, I sent an email to the Admin account asking her to delete the account associated with the email address. I didn’t leave my name.
To my surprise, she responded to the email with a short but civil email. She knew who sent it when she looked at the email on the account. That’s the last I’ve heard from her.
Why any given LO comes out of the woodwork nobody knows. If you really don’t want to hear from them again, you take positive action to make it hard or impossible for them. You can do it with some people, you can’t do it with others.
What you can do is tell your LO that you prefer any correspondence related to work come in on a company channel. To save money, my organization dropped company cell phones and gave people a subsidy to use their personal cell phones for company business. For me, it was a good deal. For others, their phones were going off all the time.
Doesn’t sound entirely dissimilar to my situation. I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that she was seeing what the reception would be like. The silence since has been deafening. Thanks for sharing your story – it rings so true. Can I ask, how did you feel when you got contact? At the moment I’d like nothing more, yet want nothing less.
“Can I ask, how did you feel when you got contact?”
You can’t make this stuff up…
That exchange occurred in October 2018. It surprised me. At the time, I was kind of in the mindset of I didn’t plan on ever re-crossing that bridge but it was nice to know that it might be possible should the unlikely event that I ever became available again.
A few months later was the 10th anniversary of her starting her business. I had congratulated her on her 5th anniversary. I waffled about it. I told myself that I’d need some kind of sign to do it. I used to read my horoscope for fun. That morning it read something like “A person you reach out to today will greatly appreciate your words.” Honest to God, that’s what it said.
So, I popped off an email congratulating her. I also compared her to Circe in the Madeline Miller novel. http://madelinemiller.com/circe/
LO #4 didn’t reply to the email but she did respond to it. A few hours later, I checked her professional FB site (she blocked me on her personal page). She had a post noting the 10th anniversary. A poster asked LO #4 if she was doing anything special. LO #4 replied that she’d forgotten about it until a former forum member emailed and reminded her. The last time I looked at her site was over 3 years ago.
I kind of look at it like I’m on the stern of a departing ship and she’s on the shore. I can look back but the image keeps getting smaller and smaller. Eventually, it disappears over the horizon. That’s a luxury the ability to go No Contact can afford you. I can look back without going back and things get better over time.
Were I ever to become available again, after all this time, I think trying to re-engage her would just be lame. Considering that LO #4 and I never actually met, we got really deep in the weeds.
@LE – firstly, thanks for the link! It gives me comfort to share your view from the boat. I realise t he at I’m in this for the long haul, not helped by our work situation. But your story does prove that recovery is there if you can put the work in. Thank you.
Hi LaR,
got tired of scrolling…
I‘m not sure about the exact point I declared myself not limerent any more, I threw away all journals about this LE, but I think it’s not yet 6 months, also because there is/was such a long tail-end of being disappointed that he‘s not even the kind of friend I thought he could be, that I’m not sure if the weeks of anger about that still count to limerence or not.
The kind of friendship I imagined and isn‘t possible with my XLO wouldn’t have disturbed my relationship with SO , so I find it interesting that you say that a closer friendship (if it would be possible without you getting limerent again) wouldn’t be possible because of your SO. Maybe it’s because I was already official friends with LO. And maybe, I think now, I was mistaken that that imagined friendship could have existed without limerence or SO getting wary.
That makes me think of Lost in Space, who kind of had his cake and ate it, and wonder if he still manages that.
Personally I think that you could introduce SO and LO and lay a foundation for a more relaxed situation where you can enjoy this friendship in the open. It migh help preventing limerence (although didn’t in my case, if I’m honest) and would maybe make a closer friendship possible of which SO is a part and thus ok with it.
On exercise, I’m definitely also of the mindset that I don’t need more stress in my life, meaning that I don’t opt for heavy exercise, forcing myself to do long runs or getting competitive with myself. I just know that I need more muscles and movement. And I think, cardio isn’t the priority now for a woman my age (perimenopausal-have to watch out for osteoporosis etc) so I look for ways to get muscle…
I‘m quite small and thin, many crosstrainers have too big step width for me, and also I‘m not sure where it would fit into our house.
Also, I kind of like getting out of the house and away from distractions to do some training, but on the other side, time-wise it is much easier to fit a training in at home.
In the meantime I do some planks and a bit of resistance band stuff and try to walk a lot…
Can I whisper 2 penny worth of thoughts here?
🥇, Mila, personally, I think residual resentment is still a part of LE tail. If LE is totally gone, either side of the coin — joys and resentments of LE, would co-exist peacefully in the trunk of your life experiences (I’m getting there….)
🥈. I used to envy that LOs are your pre-existing friends, but no long feel so. Friendship after LE, I’m convinced by LwL, would differ from one without LE. As a grandiose narc limerent, all I have for my x-LOs/Lims is condescending sympathy at most… Lucky I don’t need to keep in touch even loosely with any of them…
🥉. Thus my disagreement to introducing MFF to LaR’s SO. It takes tremendous efforts to hide/cover LE (aged or still breathing), and any normal SO is sensitive enough to feel it. What’s the point to make such a “triangle” life pattern?
A cliche: let it flow naturally….
Lost in Space is still managing it, I guess 🤷♂️ It’s pretty exhausting honestly, I really wouldn’t recommend it to anyone but it’s my life at this point and it has its good parts and its bad parts.
My relationship with SO is really nice these days, and she’s happy and I’m happy and we’re close and affectionate and we’re enjoying each other a lot. We’re supporting each other well, functioning really nicely as a partnership. I can’t even remember the last time we had any sort of bad feelings between us, hardly even the smallest argument in forever, everything is just smooth and peaceful and comfortable. We text back and forth all day when I’m at work and I always look forward to coming home to her at the end of the day and we have nice talks and cuddles in the evening and fall asleep holding each other every night and it’s all just really nice.
LO and I haven’t been alone together in person for several months now – her choice, she’s had too much anxiety about me to make the short walk to my office and knock on the door. Nothing ever happened in there except chats and smiles and an occasional warm but brief hug, and I miss all that but it’s probably for the best. We still talk on the phone a lot – sometimes it’s almost every day, other times less often. Sometimes we text back and forth all day, sometimes not – mostly all driven by how anxious she’s feeling about us. We know each other really well and we really like each other and care about each other and want the best for each other, and we can still talk forever and have it feel like the time flies by and it’s never enough time. I still love hearing the sound of her voice and I still get a little thrill every time my phone rings or I get a text and it’s her. I guess I’m still limerent for her, although she doesn’t occupy my thoughts when we’re apart nearly as much as in the past – I definitely have days when she’s on my mind a lot, but other days where she might be just like one of ten different things I’m thinking about that day.
I’ve been helping her a lot with her homework. She has a ton of writing assignments for school every week and struggles a lot with academic writing, plus she’s pretty overwhelmed between working full time, caring for three kids and going to school full time. She’s been on the brink of dropping out a bunch of times and I really don’t want to see that, since this has been her dream for like 20 years and it’s her ticket to a better life for herself, so I’ve taken a pretty active role in helping her get through school. Every week she sends me drafts of all her assignments on google docs and I help out with them; I’ve become her editor and writing coach now, as well as her support person who encourages her and won’t let her give up when she’s feeling totally overwhelmed. I like it because it feels nice to be connected to her with a shared project of getting her through school (actually it’s really similar to how it was when my wife was in grad school years ago and I filled the same roles for her). She’s a little over halfway through her program now and doing well. She’s also still actively working on her mental health and getting a little better all the time and I try to support her a lot with that too, and she and I work pretty actively on our communication with each other as well so there’s less misunderstanding and extremes of hot and cold like there used to be (still some, but a lot less).
So the interesting thing now is that my relationship with SO is really about as nice as a marriage could be, has everything except the novelty and new relationship energy that I think all of us here crave and isn’t really possible 20 years into a marriage. But now 2.5 years into this weird sort-of relationship with LO, the novelty and excitement of that relationship is mostly worn off as well and it’s become a fairly well-established relationship with patterns and roles and responsibilities and all that, but without a lot of the rewarding things that come with a real relationship (you know, like spending time together in the same place, or having any sort of physical contact, or getting to actually see the other person’s face while talking with them, little things like that 🤣) And I get pretty exhausted sometimes just making everything work – mostly it comes at the expense of my own sleep because I don’t want to steal time from anyone else. I get frustrated sometimes about all the boundaries and limits with LO but simultaneously I’m grateful for them because I’d never want to lose my marriage or hurt SO. And sometimes I feel like a really terrible person for engaging in a multi-year emotional affair, and other times I feel pretty good about myself for managing to be a good husband and father and doing well at work and also managing to be the most supportive and consistently positive person in LO’s life and helping her reach a better place. And mostly I just keep taking it one day at a time and keep trying to do the best I can to do the things I need to do each day, and not think too much about the past or the future.
Anyway, I hadn’t browsed this site in quite awhile (I’ve been too occupied editing college papers in my spare time!) but then apparently Mila thought about me and I sensed it halfway around the world and showed up here and figured I’d let y’all know I’m still alive and kicking. Much love to all the old friends here ❤️
Hi Lost in Space,
good to hear from you! I‘ll never forget you for your way with words and finding the right ones at the right time for me.
Actually I guessed that you were still keeping all plates in the air, so to say. I will not ask the same questions again, I’ll just note that you used the word „nice“ five times in describing your relationship with SO;).
I think it’s fantastic that you help your LO with school. I really root for her to finish, get a better job and get the opportunity to really think about her life and if she wants to stay with her SO.
You always had a way of describing your situation (that might seem impossible or absurd to others) that it seemed plausible, feasible, understandable and even a bit golden, with a glow, I don’t express myself well. I just hope that it‘s really that way for you all. Not meaning it ironically. I would wish so much that all will go well for everyone in this tale.
Hi Mila! So I’ve been spending the past several days trying to figure out what exactly it means that I used the word “nice” 5 times in describing my relationship with SO, and I can’t quite figure it out. What does it mean? Teach me something about myself please 😁
Hi LiS,
actually I just noticed it and mentioned it in case it would ring a bell with you, I didn’t interpret so much myself.. cliché would probably have it that it has a slightly condescending and “boring” ring to it, like in “not fantastic, not exciting, not the best, but hey, one could say it’s nice.”
But! everyone in a long term relationship knows that exciting ends at some point, and if it’s still “nice” after many years, it’s more than most people manage to have. So, it’s completely open to what you yourself meant by it.
Sorry if it sounded like criticism, it wasn’t meant that way. Just noticing and mentioning. I’m not a native speaker, so it could be that “nice” has another ring to it in my language/ear than in yours.
Hey Mila! No worries, I definitely didn’t take it as criticism – I just was curious to see what insight you might have for me. And yeah, I think you’re exactly right that “nice” is a word you use for something that’s comfortable/pleasant/reliable rather than exciting/passionate/novel – and like you said, new and exciting always ends at some point and if a marriage is still comfortable, pleasant and reliable (and nice!) 20 years in, that’s actually pretty good. And I’d go as far as to add that my marriage is almost always filled with a lot of tenderness and affection and playfulness and connection, as well as occasional moments of sexiness and passion. I think I’ll give my marriage a rating of “nice +”
I was just wondering about you, too! You seem to have some psychic ability, lol
Hello Lost in Space,
Thanks for the update for those of us here following your story for quite some time now.
You know that your path chosen is somewhat controversial, however, I do highly appreciate your openness, transparency and willingness to share the raw reality of how it is playing out with you, in your always engaging writing style.
I am cheering on your LO to progress and advance in her endeavours to free you both.
Best wishes
Hi all,
For those of you around the tail end of you LE or in the death of hope phase, I heard someone sing this song the other day and it resonnated so much:
Say something
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=KHIMIa5Lzxk&si=7vvvd3xglb_QWy7f
There is a kind of eerie peace with this sadness that helps, I think.
Incidentally, LO was there and caught up on it, I think, because she did say something (not much and very late, though)
Best wishes to anyone in this phase. There’s peace on the shore. (Or so I think)
Beautiful, and so apt @S.anon. I feel like screen shotting the lyrics and sending them to her. Except a) I suspect that she’d think I was pathetic, and b) I’ve deleted her number….
Hello S.anon,
Thank you for sharing this link.
It is a meaningful yet so simple song. Yes, it so relates to letting go of an LO.
The issue it seems is many limerents can’t utter the “say something” line, when there are barriers and that’s where the pain is.
I hope you are doing ok. It seems you have managed to release and are in a happier place. I hope to get to that shoreline too
Hi imho!
Thanks. I don’t really think I’m at the shore yet but I’m definitely stating to let go of her.
I’ve found the bulk of the unmet needs that started all this, I think. I’m considering changing things to meet them, possibly big things, and i’m doing surprisingly much better for just thinking about it.
Still think LO is some kind of magical being with superpowers though so I wouldn’t say LE is over yet.🤣
Good luck!
S.anon,
Well that sounds exciting, changing possibly big things to fulfill identified unmet needs!
That is progress, because often in LEs there is a lack of interest in most anything beyond what relates to LO.
I hope you make them happen. Don’t wait for the motivation. Just action. ( A new mantra I use when I have zero interest to do anything mundane or even do the things I used to enjoy)
My LO is also still extraordinarily special. So yes, I get you !
Hi Snow,
I agree that obsessive, time-consuming resentful feelings were still part of the LE. But now I don’t think much of him- actually I think of him only when I write here about him(maybe I should less) or when he gets in touch, and then only shortly, and that’s when I feel a reluctance or resentment. I don’t call that limerence any more because I don’t suffer or spend much time on it.
I feel that the once limerent part of me that suffered so much is so completely fed up with the whole story that it wants him completely gone from my life/mind.
Another part, the part who was always friends with him, thinks that’s unfair and a pity because it’s not his fault in the end and I do like him.
Of course LaR shouldn’t introduce them while still limerent. But if there’s non-limerent friendship to uphold,and that’s what he aims for, then it’s surely better and less dangerous to make it seen to SO. I don’t mean that they get to be best friends, but simply that they are part of a friend circle, that there‘s no „secret“ friendship going on that has something illicit about it.
Mila,
I think I know and understand where you are, which is more challenging than me because you still have to deal with xLO through work.
When I think of the tail of LE, I mainly consider the quality, not just quantity. If xLO appears in our head occasionally, let’s say for 1 minute, but still causes disturbance and resentment, then I category it is still a part of tail. On the other hand, if xLO flashes in the head more frequently but causes not even small mental waves, and meets with calmness, silent smile, or deep empathy (for both sides), then I think one is more out of the tail.
For you and LaR, the part that wants to retain the old friendship is much more challenging and energy consuming — physically walking away from stranger-LE is simply easier. Whether a non-limerent friendship can still exist and last after one’s limerence, remains to be seen…
You and LaR are candidates for such a possibly; but please don’t Make Extra Efforts to make it happen — may lead to another type of resentment… Just let it naturally unfold.
Hi Snow,
I don’t have to deal with XLo through work since he left work, only the longish business trip looming ahead to which he‘ll come as working guest.
And I’ll use „naturally unfold“ as mantra! Because I catch myself thinking about this trip and how I will avoid spending my whole free time with him, or if I shouldn’t avoid it etc. (he tends to cling to me on trips like that).
Even back before limerence he clung a bit too much for my liking.
Now I’m even less inclined to tolerate spending every free minute with him, but I think I should just not plan and let it go, it will naturally unfold;)
There will usually anyway be plans other colleagues make and invite me, and on past trips I made an effort that he gets invited too, but this time I‘ll just leave it be and naturally etc!
Thanks for that mantra!
Mila, Snow,
On this, I want to just clarify something. I did not mean that I felt SO would never accept mine and LO/MFF’s friendship. They have met a handful of times in the past before LE and once (accidentally) more recently. SO knows her and I are old friends. I do agree with you that it is too soon, for now, still on the tail of my LE, but that doesn’t mean it would always be. LO is open to it. SO definitely sniffed something even without them meeting, but what I don’t know. She can be a bit unpredictable in such situations but with more time I do think it could happen (not forced though, as you said, Snow). I also agree with you Mila that it will need this step eventually if it is to be an authentic friendship that lasts.
What I meant when I said it was unsustainable as it was, because of me and SO, was more a comment on how it was making me feel. I simply couldn’t keep going with giving that much time and affection to two women at the same time. It wasn’t fair on SO or me (arguably also LO). I could not keep that level up without having negative effects on myself and SO, and that became very apparent. That’s why it had to reduce from my perspective – I had had too long of LO taking up so much of my bandwith, and these are years me and SO won’t get back after all.
The difference between me and LIS is that he and his LO were both fully mutual and disclosed. Mine is not like that – there is still plausible deniability for all parties – more like yours, Mila, although I get you had more openness with your SO about it.
I get the feeling you both ask me about this and enter discussions about it because in your own ways you are both rooting for me to have this work out ok in the end. I appreciate that from you both.
Well LaR,
you are the race horse I bet on, or my substitute to manage what I haven’t managed, like a bad ambitious parent😆
I get what you say about SO and the friendship.
And although I root for the friendship, I even more root for your mental health and happiness. If you have to give up that friendship at some point because it’s better for you, so be it.
Recently I talked to my SO about my disappointment in XLO as a friend. He listened carefully and even defended him a bit, but since then I got a very slight, fleeting impression that he‘s kind of relieved and feels closer to me. I think this friendship made him always a little bit wary although he tolerated it for my sake. Now that I opened up about what I feel at the moment about XLO, I guess he feels more in the picture and is sure that nothing hidden is going on between us.
I think my SO also senses there has been a ‘step change’ because my mood has changed (lighter at times, more bandwith for her, but tired as I’ve said). We are getting on pretty well. We do talk about my LO and I am honest about aspects of the ups and downs of that friendship as much as I can be without drawing in the obvious bit that I don’t want to say. I think she might get a gist but has never challenged me on it.
I think you’re right about if the friendship has to go to be better for me. It is a risk-reward calculation. At the moment there would be more negatives than positives to throwing it away. But I can countenance the possibility now, in a hypothetical way. LO is relying on me much less now, so I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s also entertained the idea. It still isn’t the best scenario – I’d prefer to make it work.
…..
Mila,
You know I sometimes like to ask the awkward questions around here, so, on our SO related chats:
“but since then I got a very slight, fleeting impression that he‘s kind of relieved and feels closer to me … he feels more in the picture and is sure that nothing hidden is going on between us.”
Elsewhere you said the friendship with LO (even your imagined ideal one) could never get between you and SO. But surely if you feel he might have had these slight ‘wonderings’ before that chat, it *was* on some level getting between you? In his head, a fraction?
I am not trying to liken our two situations, because in all honesty I can detect that you and your SO are very solid, whereas I have admitted my LE occurred in a rockier patch with my SO. So – not trying to liken it, but, the sort of example you gave above where you imply that SO might have wondered about you and xLO’s friendship … when I say my LE got between me and my SO, that’s the same sort of thing I meant. I was different somehow (even if I tried everything not to be), SO wondered why, and said enough for me to know she had slight suspicions about LO and I. Now I don’t feel limerent, that barrier with SO is really diminishing. I am more present, she seems more trusting. Again, I know it’s not really the same as yours … but I couldnt resist (and I mean this with humour) a little poke back at this hornet’s nest.
Now please go ahead and blow me out the water with a better response than this 😂😂
Hi LaR,
but you are completely right, it is similar!
It’s just that it was only a very fleeting impression , I might even be wrong that that mood was caused by that conversation, it might be my own conscience connecting things. and I think that he already came to the conclusion by himself that there’s no threat in this friendship. I mean, I had that friend for ten years including regular meetings of both families, they even had their own texting going on. But the last year of ramped up contact could have made him a bit wary again, and maybe more than I realized. And yes, maybe it was the same thing as with your SO- a wariness, and maybe it created a little distance or doubt in their head. My SO is not easily shaken though and we are/were in a good way , not like with LO1, where we were also in a rockier phase.
I just don’t think that therefore it would have been better to hide that friendship. I think keeping that friendship away from SO because it might come between us (like I feel your approach was a bit;)) that could have had a worse impact on my marriage.
It was always a sign of limerence in my case, if I felt reluctant to introduce LOs.
I do understand though. In your case, it might complicate situations/feelings when all isn’t settled yet. And also, I do like to keep some friends for myself,it has nothing got to do with limerence but more with having my own space and people, but SO always knows about them and there is no tension/interest, and that’s more the case with casual work friends, not with deeper friendships (not that I have that many).
Was that a “better” response?😆I doubt it. What is “blow out of the water?” Have to google.
The Barman,
I’ll root for whatever you’ll work out after exiting the LE tail. Just don’t force the matter towards any pre-set directions, because they are considered “right” by conventions and others.
As Mila says, our mental wellbeing and substantial joy is most important in our own life, connected with those who we truly care, from our core/soul.
No emojis on this office computer, I feel like an ESL robot (not any AI) muttering now…
Thank you for all this Snow. Duly noted! Hope you have your emoji keyboard working again now!
Mila,
“Blow out of the water” = win an argument with a better point.
There is loads you say that I agree with. You’ll see in my post to Libra SO that I’ve said more about the SO side of things for me. You’re not wrong that I kept the extent of the friendship with LO somewhat secret – less so over time, not more so, mind you.
You also had the families mixing together as background, so it was probably more normal to continue in that way – not the case with us where my LO is single and more in a grey area as a ‘threat level’ to SO. I was not more open about the friendship because I was limerent/feeling things that SO would not want me to be feeling. She would have smelled a rat and called me out – still probably would because – as Snow put it yesterday – these things are still visible to an SO even when we’re in the embers or burned out stage.
It also depends on the SO’s character. Sounds like yours is quite ‘robust’ and able to take a frank discussion. That can be hit and miss for me.
I also think you must have been better at partitioning your feelings and in having absolute certainty at all times that SO was your first choice. I admit wavering with that at times (not anymore, and happy with decisions I’ve made), but never enough to prompt action or disclosure.
I too keep my work life fairly separate more generally, like to have my own friends, and have other female friends at work (no feelings/limerence for them ever) who I socialise with separate from SO. SO is OK with this / used to it. I was upfront from the start that I often make female friends.
This doesn’t mean I think I did everything right about the LE in basically keeping the worlds apart. I do fully accept your point too that if the friendship is to be authentic longer term, I need to get the two of them to meet properly. If for nothing else, to feel comfortable *in myself* about it. Until that happens, the secrecy element will still be there to some extent, even if (as I am now), I am truthful with SO about when/where I have spent time with LO. It is a question of when, and I need a longer separation from feeling limerent than I have so far to have a better chance of making it work.
Not a lot of the other regular contributors with SOs have said a lot of what their SO did or didn’t know about their LO’s existence and the nature of the ‘friendships’ between them – I’d be quite interested to hear …
Ooh, I’d like to chime in here:
“Not a lot of the other regular contributors with SOs have said a lot of what their SO did or didn’t know about their LO’s existence and the nature of the ‘friendships’ between them – I’d be quite interested to hear …”
I could probably write a book on this. My SO is great and we have never really had any issues. In fact, he makes my LO pale on every level, emotional, intellectual, sense of humour, physical appeal. Tbh, this is part of why I never told him anything about my LE. On paper, my LE was quite preposterous (as they so often are). More importantly, it was never a risk to our marriage, either on paper or in reality. In the white heat of the LE, for about a month, I might have questioned my marriage – but never to the extent of considering leaving SO for LO. My questioning was more about making a bid for freedom – “is this all there is?” type of questioning. But exec brain was always in control of lim-brain and I never really entertained it seriously. I could see too many plus points of my SO who I loved dearly.
For those reasons, I could not see the possible benefit of ruining SO’s peace of mind for someone who didn’t even live nearby, who was a work colleague that I saw once in a blue moon, and only communicated with over email, usually with a bunch of other people copied in, who was no threat, who was less attractive on so so many levels (see above)….
As to whether SO suspected and whether he might have felt I was hiding something, this is probable. But, a bit like LaR described, there was always plausible deniability because of grenades being thrown into my family life due to other traumas. I firmly believe that my addiction to LO (and that’s all it is, addiction) was kicked off by those traumas, as well as a ridiculously out of balance work life. It had very little to do with LO himself, he was a red herring, a ruse, a symbol. He was never going to seriously threaten SO in my mind, but communicating that effectively SO, along with explaining the strength of person addiction, and trusting that he could understand that – what a massive risk that would be? I concluded that telling him would have been needlessly destructive. It’s also why I really needed this community on LwL as I felt I was going insane keeping all of this to myself.
I will also add that, perfect though my SO is, he does tend to jealousy. It drives me a bit mad as that is not how I am wired and I am always turned off by it (some people seem to like it, but not me). Because any attempt to curtail me is really one of the buttons that my SO has learned that he really must not press, I do wonder whether this might mean that he refrained from asking questions when I was distracted by limerence? Its very probable that he noticed my distraction but either put it down to other explanations (see above) or decided not to ask as it would look intrusive (?). It makes me appreciate him all the more because I did feel like we trust one another. Also, I knew I would handle it myself (just like I do lots of things that bother me in my life).
LaR,
Actually, there are quite a few posts on LwL that discussed what their SOs might know or didn’t know. You have to go through the older blogs to find them.
I recommend you search the index or keyword block for “spouses,” “affairs,” and “disclosure.”
Since we’re limited to posting on Coffeehouses, you could copy the link address to the old comment and paste it into the Coffeehouse.
Bewitched,
Both the similarities and differences between our LEs are fascinating!
How are you getting on with your quest to work out ‘why THIS LO glimmering for ME then??’
I’m kind of envious of those of you whose convictions towards the security of your primary relationships (who did not feel they were threatened by LE) were stronger. I was racked with self doubt at times on where it would all end. I felt both things (limerence and me+SO) couldn’t continue properly at the same time – despite like you having exec brain overruling lim brain.
But I think as many of you have said, LOs immediacy in my environment and extroversion added extra fuel compared to what you describe, Bewitched, with more distance and space to reflect I could often have to ‘flip a switch’ between the two very quickly within a day, for days in a row, for example (and I get it doesn’t sound great written that way).
LE,
Cheers for that heads up. Used to trawl the archives a lot but not so much lately as so much new stuff. I’ll try and collate some bits when I can, as I’ve also been chatting to Libra SO on another thread about spousal stuff from opposite sides of coin.
LaR,
I recommend you try these. Snippets of my story are in them under a different name. You can probably figure it out from the posts. Pay attention to the dates. What I thought then and what I think now are very different.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/when-does-limerence-become-an-emotional-affair/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/emotional-versus-physical-affairs/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/emotional-affairs/ – Pay attention to Sophie in this one. Her story is very interesting. Sophie was one of the early posters on LwL.
Limerent Emeritus, I read through Sophie’s comments. Wow! How did her story play out? Did she keep her marriage together?
Hi LaR and Bewitched,
that’s right, like Bewitched there was never a doubt in any of my LEs that SO is Nr.1. Maybe also because I had the limerence of all limerences for SO back then, but mainly because he is truly great, and great for me(LO2 is truly great too, but not so much for me, he would exhaust me completely and I would be too quiet for him, I guess).
But I think it‘s at least as good to waver and then decide for SO!
My SO isn’t the jealous type, or better said, when he’s jealous, he doesn’t accuse or complain, he gets a bit distanced and has small negative reactions when the object is mentioned, nothing more. He says it’s all in my hands anyway, when I want someone else, he won’t change it by telling me not to. (But he said that way back 24 years ago, actually).
My SO and I have always had opposite-sex friends, never considered it an issue. I have a strong suspicion that SO still carries a torch for one mutual friend we’ve had since I was in college (he’s older and met her another way). In the early days of our marriage, there was some jealousy and I tried putting up some restrictions, but later on I calmed down and we have gone with live-and-let-live ever since. In fact, I find jealousy a turnoff. I don’t go off on secret dates with my current LO, and previous ones have been platonic friends that SO knows all about (except for the limerence part). Basically, my whereabouts are accounted for. 🙂 And no, neither of us “requires” an accounting; we just volunteer information.
Current LO has been upending all that for me, but I’ve been holding him to boundaries to keep it from turning into a PA. I thought I’d never be able to resist him if he propositioned me, but turns out I’ve been able to for months now. I realized I’ve been keeping him to higher boundaries in many ways than with my other male friends. For example, I think nothing about meeting a male friend at a McDonald’s or talking to him on the phone or messaging late at night. But current LO? Nope, only see him at church-related functions. Don’t text past 9:30pm. Only call if absolutely necessary. Things like that. So my whereabouts are still accounted for.
L.E.,
Thanks for those links to past posters’ experiences etc.
Sophie’s story is interesting indeed. Until she reveals the bit where he crosses the line and tries to kiss her, it sounds a bit like your common garden LE – with a few small changes, minus that bit it seems to almost mirrors my LE for what it’s worth. But then it becomes clear the guy did know what he was doing all along and had intent. A lot of limerents have no intent to act on it.
The husband’s reaction (not really bothered by the LE/EA) strikes me as unusual. I think my SO would be in a similar camp of “far less bothered by an EA than a PA”. Knowing of an EA would definitely hurt her a lot, but knowing of a PA (there is none, but just using this for example) would end the relationship. If it was the other way round I might be equally devastated by her having an EA as a PA. Maybe not quite as much now I understand how limerence and attachment work, but close.
But many limerents don’t progress to EA stage because most of it plays out in their head. I often wondered, if it doesn’t feel like an EA to the other person (LO) too, can it really be classified as an EA at all? It can almost be an affair in the limerent’s mind only. In one of those old posts the term FA (Fantasy Affair) was suggested.
I know what your old LwL screen name was and I can see your comments and get a feel for them. But could you summarise how your thinking has changed across the years you have been on LwL? I could speculate but it is easier to ask. I’d be interested. Alongside DrL you have the biggest catalogue of stories across 8 years to draw on.
🎩 🌽—
I like the word “F🅰️” ! — so much more accurate than EA in many cases here.
I did pursue EA all the way to the end (might, just might have got a little bit of it at the early stage but I was too naive and ESL laden to even recognize it; 🍫 sis. helped me see it last March), but only had FA mostly — which indeed helped greatly considering the dire circumadtance, as the mood regulator for the grief of the death and newly triggered cptsd…
F🅰️ then awaken and strengthened the childish 🫥 , which continues helping and even inspiring me here and there like a personal “god” or Athena.
Don’t worry, I’ll not let my aged 🫥 starve or die… and its 👽 🎭 is coming 📴 steadily in the emotional 🧠, except in occasional dreams that still hurt (like just now). I still try to understand what the Unconscious wanted or needed to tell me…
🦜,
“I still try to understand what the Unconscious wanted or needed to tell me…”
I don’t know, you’re the best interpreter of your own dreams… my guess will be too simplistic. Is it just that your subconscious is behind your conscious in severing 👽🎭 from phantom (I now don’t have full emoji keyboard available where I am today!)? So subconscious is trying to hold on to pleasant memories while conscious tries to let go? Or – alternatively – is it trying to speed the process up by making you think of less pleasant things about him? (No need to answer if this will send you in directions you’d rather not go).
🎩 🌱,
🥇, I need to edit my previous message, that 🫥 is more of Apollo, not Athena who is too wise/rational for the modern world’s healthy consideration for human psychology. Apollo takes care of light, music, poetry, healing, intuition and prophecy.
🥈 “Is it just that your subconscious is behind your conscious in severing 👽🎭 from phantom? So subconscious is trying to hold on to pleasant memories while conscious tries to let go?
⬆️ is more like it. As talked before, I believe in Jungian theory (with many proofs of my dreams) that the Unconscious more than often tries to balance out what the conscious desires/wishes/believes over-strongly. one’s shadow parts are often manifested and speak in dreams.
My dreams almost always created something new, not dwelling on old memories. This early morning’s dream is blurry (I often took early evening naps lately to rest my still recovering waist right after work/tutoring, then always ended staying up until dawn —
The lighting of this dream was a bit somber/cloudy. A new handsome, charming dude came in town and took 👽’s room/apt. in a dorm. I went there to look for him and surprised to find only the new dude there. I asked him (looking like a fit, slim, tall British actor) if 👽 left anything (a 📦?) there, he said NO. Then, I felt 😞, deeply sensed a loss…. Later, there were other messy details in which 👽 might have appeared briefly and was organizing an event or something…. He was cocky that I was looking for his belongings…. Then I woke up by the alarm.
🥉 In the past, my mentality was always either black or white, learning to accept grey areas at F level has been especially challenging for me. Lately, my F 🧠 has finally caught up with T during waking hours (don’t ask me how 🤫 ).
However, this turn from residual longing/sadness to “new” insight and then indifference (not much resentments but pity on the other side, same as all previous, untrusted 🅾️s or limers — not friends) occurred quite sudden/fast, which might have left the Unconscious behind, thus the dream — the first one since the “Dawn”…🌁
🙏 for never press me to tell more than I can or wish but only raise mull-able questions 👏
I can’t see what is ahead of me, but strangely feel at peace/settled inside, which is so out of my expectations…. 🧐
🎩 🌽,
I think I’m going to be in trouble again with a late/early 20s’/30’s dude in a very popular, respected physical therapy center 😩😕
This morning during my PT, I suddenly caught my PT trainer(from Philippine) throwing me that (Word?) look! Disbelieving my illusion I tried another peek, there his eyes staring at my eyes when pressing my bent legs down for stretching on a PT table, luckily in a huge room with many 7-10 therapists and clients.
Last week, he kept committing on my “amazing flexibility” (I used to wrap my legs around neck, no more!) especially after an injury and walked limping with pains three weeks ago. Today, he tried to figure out my age, which I thought was on file, and very indirectly guessed that I was around 35. Then he gave me extra time (my insurance pays anyway).
Now, I feel unpleasantly stressed; I hate that “look” 😠 ❗️ I have three more sessions to go before my Italy trip, then I’ll stop PT for a while… this dude with his Philippine classmate/colleague, so sweet and nice, were co-working on me with so many effective stretching and strengthening techniques, now I’m flying on the side walk but still with mild aching in the waist band.
🚜 — Have a restful night and good weekend with your SO!
Oh dear, Snow!! How would you describe this ‘look’? Pervy? Longing? Something else? What emoji denotes it?
Yes my questions to people on here are often ‘thinkers’ for them and always optional – mostly people do bite and answer them but I’m glad you don’t feel obliged, as nobody should.
Thanks for the wishes for our weekend. Lots to
do, quite a bit involving cooking and mothers!
🍫 👖 🔥 🍊 🍷 ,
I always have a doubly-diluted double-expresso in the morning with a bit cream (then no more for the rest of the day) after a glass of powdered vitamin drink, but this morning I did not have time to mix the vitamin drink.
I also can’t take dishes cooked with coconut oil, other types of oils are fine. Most of cheese is not tolerated especially ones on 🍕, more than half of Asian people are lactose intolerant. we did not grow up with dairy products.
👨🌾,
No emoji 👩🏽🦲 can show that look which seems to light up one’s being, at least around eyes. How does negative the word, “Pervy” sound like? (might apply to that 27 yrs nursing-major student). Unless a dude is glimmery, I cannot and don’t want to deal with that look, even if he can indeed bring the Moon to me….
That might be the reason that I had to first glimmer at a stranger who did not notice me at all. If you see Medusa’s face first, you’d be “dead” — no chance to turn on that switch in her head… A priest/monk or a Stoic might have a better chance to “survive”…
But on surface in general, those young dudes look decent, nice and do their job well, not sure what they see on a face of 🐦⬛🐾 ⁉️
Snow,
„But on surface in general, those young dudes look decent, nice and do their job well, not sure what they see on a face of 🐦“
some guys just have a thing for Asian women, here it’s called „yellow fever“🙈
Also, I can imagine that you look much younger than your age, also an Asian trait..
I go to sleep! Sleep well, all NC, LC, Full C limerents!
😳 Yellow fever — 🤒 ⁉️
on an ancient 🐦🔥 with 🐾🐦⬛🐾🐦⬛ 👣🐦⬛👣 on her face (age: 3️⃣5️⃣✖️ 🎱) ⁉️
🍫👖, 😴 👍 — 💤 💭 👖 ✖️ 👖!
I’m having some 🔥 🍊 🍷 ⏳ later…
Here is one for anyone here who has yellow 🤒 —
https://youtube.com/shorts/1iUJRn-V6Vk?si=9x6AiYf5W4MO88d1
😵💫
LaR, your comments about the lost time with your SO, and your honesty about the ups & downs of your LE caused a huge crying jag. I can only hope that my SO can eventually see what his years-long secret relationships have cost our marriage, and that he can someday be honest about his powerful feelings.
Right now all I’m getting is anger and denial from him any time I try to bring it up. I don’t attempt discussions very often. The rest of the time he can almost seem like his old self. This has all been so difficult for me, because we hardly ever fought or even disagreed about much in our 30 year marriage, and were a very good team when it came to problem-solving and stressful situations.
When I read about the intense pain that you all seem to experience with LOs who are hot and cold toward you, it always strikes me how much a betrayed SO’s emotions can swing from hope to despair. The relentless agonizing rumination is the same. The way that things associated with the SO’s LO seem so salient and triggering. It’s like being limerent for your SO, but without the dopamine hits. We only get cortisol, adrenaline, panic attacks, trauma, heartbreak.
Also, to Heebie Jeebies and Lim-a-Rant:
I did finally see your kind replies in the mental health coffeehouse. That comment section got REALLY long!
I would very much appreciate any feedback about how your SO managed to deal with your LEs/LOs, especially if they were a secret for a long time. I think that’s what I’m having the most trouble with, the length of time, the lies and deception involved. The sense of betrayal even though I understand that limerence can be like any other type of addiction (and so worthy of empathy and patience) And how you were able to open up with them about your LE. I feel like whatever I do or say just makes everything worse and my only option is to swallow my tears and pretend things are normal. It’s taking a toll on my physical health (significant weight loss, BP way up, heart palpitations, etc.) as well as my mental health. This blog has been a lifesaver, so thanks to all of you (and Dr. L, of course!)
@LibraSO
My situation is a bit odd, so not sure I can help here most of my limerence is pre-SO. I have never disclosed. But for the record….
I met SO as LE2 started, which was a failed relationship, and had various other issues, so was all over the place. SO became a close friend, then more, but my limerence made the early relationship very messy. SO knows all about LO2, but perceives her as an ex-romantic partner, and for that reason I would never disclose, as the lines are too blurred. I still cant even really bring up her name afer 20 years.
Since then I had only a very brief LE which I think i mentioned in that comment, but that only lasted like maybe 3-4 months, and given my dad had just died, we had very small children etc. I think I got a certain amount of leeway. It didn’t go on long, I was self-aware, and could rationalize away any temptation to do anything worse than hide my feelings. Certainly I was unpleasant towards SO, but I think it just melded into the generally difficult period. We did some marriage counselling about some other stuff and it all worked out.
Recently I had a relapse on LE2 (after 20 years, annoyingly), probably a midlife crisis, but I was never unkind or denigrating to SO, and never did much more tthan a few social media messages to LO2 with no intention of anything more than that. Luckily it ended up being fairly fleeting contact and probably helped me resolve the relapse rather than making it worse. I suppose what I am trying to say is that by now I am at a point where I feel I can comparmentalize the limerent urges and my actual intentions. I think Dr. L. might suggest I could well be lying to myself, but I feel confident that I am mostly just trying to do the best I can for me and SO and our kids without going crazy. Whether she would see it that way or not is hard ot judge, i suspect not, she is not limerent, and has a fairly black and white view of the world, which is another reason I avoid disclosure.
I forget what your SO did, so not sure the above helps, but I think most people who are limerent and find this site feel like they have turned a corner. If he cant do that then I would be worried about the future.
Libra SO,
Lim-a-rant and LaR and are the same person (me), just one is the abbreviated form!
My heart really goes out to you. It is so hard to know what to write back with, as everything I say sounds like I am either defending limerence or being ‘pitying’ towards SO. Neither of which I want to do. If we can agree that we know we’re on different sides of the lim-coin but will try to help each other, that would be really nice.
I’m interested in why LwL has been a lifeline for you, as intuitively I thought the last thing SOs would benefit from was to hear a load of other limerents going on about their LEs? Or is it because a lot of us do express regret and confusion that it helps you?
I will list below some things I think might help you as an SO, to know about my LE (and I don’t want to generalise or speak for others):
1. An LE is not the same as wanting a PA with the LO or wanting to trade your partner in for the LO. Objectively I knew my SO was still the better life partner. I never crossed any physical lines with LO
2. An LE does not equal no longer loving your partner. I always felt I still loved my SO through the whole process. I get how that could feel super confusing as an SO. Humans aren’t traditionally built for monogamy, so if we have chosen monogamy, we have to steer our brain on a corrective course sometimes to stick with it.
3. Dr L’s work will have told you most everything else you need to know about what limerence is. The LO has triggered something off in the limerent (often unwittingly / undeliberately) which then acts as a strong brain chemical or magnetic pull. The limerent can resist that pull in their actions (though that’s incredibly difficult, and many don’t, or dip in and out), but the thoughts they have are involuntary and the action to ‘seek LO’ does feel like drug addiction.
4. Often LEs burn through in 2-3 years – mine seems to be within that – on the tail now after less than 2.
5. I felt a lot of guilt towards my SO and a lot of self-dislike, but didn’t usually know “what to do” with those feelings.
I can’t honestly say how my SO has dealt for sure, because I haven’t told her – it is not in the open between us. I’m guessing, but do know her mind quite well.
I am willing to bet she experienced some of what you have. I have tried to not lie outright to her, and actually got much better at that as time went by. But I know how much I presented as distracted and tetchy a lot of the time – I couldn’t help that, whatever I tried.
I can’t remember how you discovered your partner’s LE – was it you that found all the stuff in his phone? If so, that must have been absolutely heartbreaking (I once found sexting pics in an ex’s phone). What did he say when you confronted him? And what does he say now if you do?
I think my SO has sort of still trusted me throughout, and on one level she is right to, as I have never (physically speaking) betrayed her with anyone. But I think (and I stress, I’m guessing) she worked out that LO and I had gotten too close emotionally. LO was my friend before I even know SO, we work together, the name often came up naturally when talking about my workday etc. SO would make veiled ‘work wife’ type jokes but they never seemed too mean spirited.
But she never asked or confronted me. I got the feeling that on some level she’d just rather not have the knowledge (or at least confirmation of it), but rather trusted me not to cheat and to eventually resolve it for myself and push past it. I am really getting there now and do still love my SO despite the LE.
If she challenged me – earlier on I am likely to have got defensive and said “we’re just friends” etc (white lied, I suppose, although we only ever were friends – LO and I never disclosed) and asked her to stop interrogating me. Now, I think I might be more truthful “yes, you’re right, we did get too close for a while, I know that’s not right and I’ve learned from it” or along those lines. If she challenged me today, I do honestly think I’d say that and trust we could deal with the consequences. I wouldn’t have been so sure when I was deeper ij the weeds.
Question for you with the SO perspective – if you were in my shoes, should I just be even more upfront and just tell my SO that now without prompting? When I read bits from another SO poster, SO.Miranda, she seemed to think it is sometimes better to spare the SO the hurt if you’ve (limerent) dealt with it yourself and not cheated.
I wish I could word some of the above better. I have tried to write to you before and never sent it because I couldn’t find the time in the world it would take to get the words just right, so I’m just going to send this time. I do want to wish you all the best with picking through this mess (with him but mostly for yourself – be your main priority) and say I’m happy to chat back and forth if you have more questions or think I can be any help from the perspective I have.
I’m so glad my SO never chose to leave me or push an ultimatum on me while I was limerent – but it she had done, I would have known deep down I deserved it.
Thank you so much LaR!!!
What you said actually helps immensely and is very relatable to my situation. I was preparing to file for divorce 2 months ago when I stumbled on this website. I went from having very little understanding of what limerence actually was to believing my marriage might be worth saving after all.
I am going to mull over your questions and answer them all eventually.
In the meantime, I have another big question for all limerents out there who also have alcohol use issues. Have any of you tried medications such as Naltrexone or Acamprosate? Seems to me that the dopamine inhibitors might decrease LO cravings along with the alcohol cravings. Please let me know! Could it be a promising way to kill 2 birds with one stone…
Adam, can you talk to Libra SO about alcohol use from the perspective of an LO? Will you try to answer her questions?
I’m sorry Libra SO, I can’t help with this question because I don’t drink alcohol.
Libra SO,
Thank you for your gratitude about my reply. I’ve been chatting in other threads with other posters about me and my spouse too. Limerent Emeritus has suggested there is more in the LwL archives about the spouse perspectives than I might know. I think DrL did a kind of “for spouses only” blog post last year sometime (maybe spring last year?) which may be helpful. There is also a guide for spouses from the LwL homepage. I can try and find some of this and post links for you when I have more time, unless others can beat me to it.
I’ll look forward to a longer reply and chatting more as and when.
Please take good care in the mean time.
Libra,
Further to what I said earlier. Dr L wrote a series of posts last year around limerence in marriage and sometimes quite geared to spouse perspectives. I have linked the main ones below. Sometimes we limerents do hijack the comments a bit but there were lots of SO perspectives among these too.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/case-study-should-i-wait-for-my-limerent-husband-to-come-to-his-senses/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/dealing-with-limerence-in-marriage/ (this is the one where DrL particularly asked for spouse perspectives)
https://livingwithlimerence.com/signs-your-partner-doesnt-respect-you/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/can-a-marriage-recover-from-limerence/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/new-project-dealing-with-limerence-in-marriage/
This page also has a ‘for partners of limerents’ section including a place where you can request a resource from Dr L.
I really echo what Lovisa just said to you in another thread – it is very good for you to be here and be willing to be part of these discussions.
I will try Miss Lovisa
Libra SO
I have not ever taken medication directly for alcohol use. At 47 I have had issues with alcohol since I started drinking at 17. As far as it’s association with limerence I find that dulling effects of alcohol worked to lessen and eventually eliminate my intrusive thoughts. Not that that is a good route of self medication.
Naltrexone and Acamprosate, to my limited knowledge, are more working to help maintain abstinence more than to actually “cure” alcoholism. You still have to have the determination to quit for yourself. With that recognition of your alcohol dependency and the desire to be free of it you can use those to help you. Depending on the severity, quitting drinking should be monitored by professionals and/or your doctor. Quitting too quickly can be really bad for your body.
When I quite smoking about a year ago, I just stopped. Said “I have had enough of this $hit” and just stopped. My wife was motivated by me and quit herself. But my inability to put down the bottle is because I don’t have the desire to quit drinking like I did smoking. No one, or no pill, will make you quit. You have to want to yourself before anyone/thing can help you.
Libra SO
When I finally found this place and learned about limerence I told my wife what was going on with me. This was 6 months after LO (a former co-worker) left the job. My wife had already confronted me about an affair with her.
It’s been almost 3 years since she left the job and the last time that I saw her. I don’t want to say it can never heal but I know in my mind that this will forever be a pox mark in our marriage, now going on 26 years.
As I tried to explain what limerence was to my wife that night I knew that to her it just sounded like a fancy word for emotional affair. Which honestly I cannot blame her. Almost 3 years now that I have been in NC. I recently had a current co-worker invite me to a formal function in July. I asked my wife if she would like to come with me. It’s my co-worker and her husband’s 10 year vow renewal. The first thing my wife asked me “Is SHE (LO) going to be there? I’m not going if she’s there.”
It sounds like your husband is where I was at one point. Once confronted with the obsession most limerents go on the defense. Either of their own actions or of their LO. I did the later. I never once tried to justify my own actions. But I vehemently defended LO that she would never get involved with a married man. I got really upset at the mere thought of my wife having a negative view of LO. “Yes dear I know I am a despicable husband but don’t you dare bad mouth her.”
I was quite the despicable husband holding another woman that high above my wife. I don’t say this to make you feel like you will never find a healing point but to try to help you see how devastating this is to both involved. I can’t say as I know what it is like to be the SO of a limerent. And I am not saying that to justify the limerent in anyway. But like any addiction it ruins the person it effects and those around them. A wife I am sure sometimes looks at me wondering if she can ever trust me again and a son that will never forgive me for what I did to his mother.
That you said that your husband can some days be “his old self” and that things can “swing from hope to despair”, unless your husband is embracing his limerence with reckless abandon, limerents can have good and bad times. It was something like a year or more after LO left that I was in the kitchen, my wife and I were cooking, and I had a terribly powerful intrusive thought and my wife held me while I fought through it. Breaking the cycle of obsession is very difficult. But it can be done. But what was said and what was done can never be changed. For either party involved. But I think that if both really want to move past this it is possible.
I have mostly healed. There are too many reminders of her that I don’t even seek out that are just there. But if anything, not that it is much of consolation to SOs, it is a life lesson for me in my interactions with women and how I cannot let this happen again. I have a destructive “savior complex” and it was the downfall of me when it came to her. So now I have taken a different approach to my interactions with the other women in my life.
Sorry, this old man can ramble. 🙂 I am hoping that with the many more people here much more articulate than I can help you and your husband come back together. From your words it sounds like you and your husband have had a wonderful marriage thus far. I hope that this experience isn’t a hurdle you two cannot overcome. Best of wishes to you Libra.
Hi Libra SO
I’ve been keeping up with your situation…
I am a serial limerent who has lied, over and over, to my SO. He has never known anything about my horrible, all-consuming LE’s.
My LE’s seem to stem from unmet needs in my relationship…and an addictive tendency. But…they actually go much further back than that. There are things, deep within me, that need healing, and acceptance. And that is not something anyone but I can provide.
This is not going to be pretty to say, but I am of the opinion that no amount of support, encouragement, resourcefulness, or selfless patience on your part will fix this. Barring that it is stemming from limerence….(I did see that you were concerned your spouse may have early signs of dementia, if that is the case, it’s a totally different ball game.)
You will not be able to fix this. Your SO has to want to fix it. This is a broad statement – not a scientific one….You are probably only 20% of a puzzle that is going on inside him…you are not privy to the other 80%…nor will you ever be. That portion is how he sees himself in this world, and it is not a place where other people are.
That being said, I have to say, you are very concerned about your SO’s state of mind, and while that make sense…you, yourself seem to be doing all the work here.
What is he doing to help this situation? Anything?
What are YOU doing to help your own mental health over all of this? Do you have boundaries that he is aware of, that you would actively enforce? Would you consider that? Does he know that you are running on empty, emotionally? That you are not doing so good? That you are stressed, concerned, and tired? Because from what I gather, that is where you’re at.
And how would it feel to say, “Look, I get it, and I have sympathy for you, immense sympathy. But I am not a bottomless well. I have to leave for a while. If you get yourself together, and I feel you are back on the right track about me, and who and what I am to you, come and find me, and be ready to prove, with action, that you want me in your life, and you are ready to respect me.”
I wonder if you could do more good, honestly, really honestly, if you took yourself out of the equation. Good for your SO, who sounds like he needs to face reality, and more importantly…good for YOU, who is clearly suffering and carrying a heavy weight you do not deserve.
I’m sure I sound hard hearted, and maybe I am. But, your story is so upsetting, and from the flip side (recovering from a very painful LE) I can say, when I started to ask myself “what is this doing to ME? I am dying, here! Why am I even concerned about what someone else *might* feel or thinks???” I started to swim to shore. So, I come with my questions for you, from that angle. We all get so wrought up here about what others are doing, how they are feeling, what their actions mean.
I am concerned, primarily, for you. You are the one writing here, concerned. I don’t see your SO here. So…these thoughts are aimed, really at you, not at him at all.
With care,
CSC
I just re-read “what’s happened to my spouse” and all the comments from way back in 2019. Very helpful for me to know that I’m just one of many SOs who have been devalued & devastated by their spouse. Dr L, you are a genius at explaining this unfortunate condition.
I would especially love to know how Terry’s and Nicole’s heartbreaking situations ended up.
Thanks again for everyone’s support and helpful suggestions!
Hi Libra SO,
Your presence here is very helpful! Thank you for sharing your experience with us. I am always impressed when spouses of limerents are willing to interact with our community. Your patient willingness to exchange ideas is very impressive! You are a brave woman!
There are a few things about your experience that I am not clear about. I would like to ask you some questions. Please feel free to answer only if you feel like sharing. I don’t want to cause you discomfort or intrude on your privacy.
1. Did your husband cheat? Physically? Emotionally?
2. Has your husband devalued you and your relationship? Is that the worst part of his LE?
3. Is your husband’s LO a younger female coworker? This is very common.
I asked about the devaluation because it seems to come up frequently in your comments and it seems to bring you a lot of pain (of course it’s painful, it would be painful for anyone). I want to encourage you to watch videos from Marriage Helper on YouTube. Joe Beam devalued his wife Alice approximately 30 years ago when he became limerent. They divorced, but reconciled after 3 years apart. Joe made some horrible mistakes back then. He seems to have learned from his mistakes and the Beams seem to be doing fine in their current marriage. I think their story might be helpful for you. I’ll share one Marriage Helper video to get you started.
https://youtu.be/wF6g8jNs0PM?si=I91yXMOaOBgRzrHM
Best wishes!
I’m sorry, I tried watching these Marriage helper videos out of curiosity, but I wouldn’t recommend these to SOs of limerents. (This particular one I skimmed, and it didn’t seem quite as bad, but I saw some others.) I would be offended. What is this individualistic view/solution to everything? Of course a marriage breaking down involves the relationship of the two people involved breaking down. We all know that.
But to solve those interpersonal issues by the cheated-on SO “working on bettering themselves”? To be a better person so that the strayer doesn’t stray again? I’m sorry, but no. If you “better” yourself, it should be for you. Otherwise you’re in for a rude awakening, after you’ve become a new and improved person – and someone still cheats on you! 😯
I don’t think it’s healthy to point the finger at the wronged SO and say: “You weren’t doing your best to be a desirable woman (they seem to aim a lot of their talk at women). You weren’t trying to please your husband enough.” We’ve all heard this “advice”… But the problem is that we’ve heard this in the 50s (ok, we weren’t born then, but you get the jist). We’ve come a long way since then, as women and as a society. We can now admit that women were not put on the Earth to be servants to men. And we can still have healthy relationships – actually healthiER relationships when the views of both parties are listened to.
Thank you for your perspective, Triffles. I couldn’t disagree with you more about the message that Marriage Helper is sending. I guess some people receive their message the way you described and, yikes, that is awful. I don’t see it like that at all.
Lovisa,
As I remember, Sophie quit posting before she stopped but she seemed to have gotten past that LE and gave no indication that her marriage would dissolve.
Sophie was one of the most interesting early posters. You can read more of her stuff in
https://livingwithlimerence.com/do-they-like-me-too/
IMO, this is one of DrL’s under appreciated early blogs. Sophie’s stuff is sprinkled throughout blogs from the period.
Sophie stopped posting before telling us a more detailed outcome.
Okay thanks for answering my questions.
Wow! I never expected so much support!
It was a hard decision for me to take the plunge and reach out here, but so far it has probably been the best one I’ve made since this whole ordeal began. I’ve never posted anything anywhere, don’t do facebook, instagram, etc. (the really bad decisions happened while I was in the hysterical bonding/pick me stage).
I tend to be very analytical, view most things in life in shades of gray or as double-edged swords. Decisions are never easy as I always need to weigh pros & cons. I value fairness and balance. This is partly why I picked Libra as my posting name even though I’m not interested in astrology whatsoever. It’s a sarcastic ode to my husbands newfound fascination (as evidenced in the thousands of screenshots & pics in his phone) with his LO’s bizarre hobbies & interests. He still can’t quite explain why he has all those shots of his & her horoscopes (gag). For 30 years I’ve only known him to be logical, reasonable, science-oriented and firmly rooted in reality. We really have had a wonderful marriage in many ways. So maybe this answers your question, LaR, about why I want to know as much as possible, even though it is painful to read the limerents here go on about their LOs and know that my husband has the same powerful feelings for another woman, who is so important to him that he hid their secret relationship for several years.
This brings me to Lovisa’ question
#1 – he says there was no PA at all, but at this point how would I ever know? He has told so many lies that he can’t keep them straight. He has written poetry about sex that ends with “I love you” but claimed that those were not about anyone in particular. (He couldn’t even bring himself to fib a little & say they were about me?) After reading so many of the comments here, my gut feeling is that his obsession with her was not reciprocated much beyond her encouraging the ego boost it has given her. But as I mentioned before, had I not learned about limerence, I would have divorced him.
#2 the devaluing and the length of time this deception went on, the fact that he still works with his LO, and also had another “friend” at the same time who’s relationship was of a different inappropriate nature, but devastating to me as well.
#3 both OW are my age, late 50s. Both very accomplished in their careers, whereas I gave up my thriving business to be a stay-home mom.So I can’t compete with them in accomplishments or even physically, as they both have had some plastic surgery. Kinda hard on the self-esteem.
Before I end my rambling, I would like to thank you all again. I have read almost all of the various articles-& comments on drL’s website, including the helpful “anxiety to action”, took the test (I am possibly or slightly limerent) and have also read a lot of Joe Beam, Tracy Scorn & Tim Tedder’s articles.
@Libra SO
Gosh, after reading these answers…wow. I am so, so sorry for all you are going through. I am going to double down and say I hope you will take time for yourself, just for yourself.
You do not deserve to be in a competitive position with one woman, much less two. And you do not deserve to be lied to, to be deceived on an ongoing basis.
I will share here that I believe my Dad was (like me) a serial limerent. My parents were married for over 50 years. He never had PA’s — he was home every night and very predictable. But, over the course of his life, he had many female “friends”. This began, probably around year 25 of their marriage. These were special women, special to my father….in appearance and demeanor, totally different than my Mom, (or from me, by extension), who were just …up on a pedestal. He was cruel often to me and my Mom, harsh with us, but these friends…well they could do no wrong.
I had a birthday once, I think it was my 40th. I went to my parents’ house to celebrate. Guess what? He forgot to come home for it. He was out helping one of these friends. I know it was not a physical affair, but it was an emotional one. And that is just as bad. Honestly, consider, maybe, that it is even worse.
I loved my Dad. But…when I look back I wonder how my mom stood it. I wonder what she would have, could have, done and enjoyed if she were not, as you say, competing, having to compete — on some level.
I understand that you are probably going to take your time here, to weigh all you have learned. But…I guess for personal reasons…I hope you will also think of yourself. What you deserve. You seem like such a thoughtful person. I am so sorry for all you are facing.
Hi Libra,
About the weird fascination with astrology: I think I can relate somehow. I am a very, very rational person myself, yet the LE threw me into a spinn and made me consider magical stuff and connection that I would have found absolutely absurd in any other moment of my life.
As it wanes, I can see I’m coming back to my senses when I compare what I write now to what I could write 6 month back. But I’m not exactly as before, either.
To me, the main things into spinning out of rationality were:
– LO is of a fundamentally different personality a value an emotional/ feelings/ intuitive approach to the world and kind of despise rationality. While it should put me off, my limerent brain is instead trying to be a contortionist because the need to fit in is so strong.
– the feelings and perceptions were so absurdly strong that I tried to find some kind of cosmic signification to this. I think this is not uncommon, some people look up soulmates or things like that. And yup! I looked for my and lo astral them when I learned about her birthday, because a found a thing that said we where such good cosmic match. I have NEVER believed in astrology EVER in my life.
– I think in some dimension I made myself into being such a rational person ( this is also completely my job) that I was maybe missing a bit of magic and passion in my life. The LE played into that. Some of what LO is and do are parts not really present in my life, that I didn’t realized I missed before.
– also LO’s abilities are borderline magical this is very off-putting to me (yeah I know I’m not out of the woods yet)
I hope the perspective can help!
Take good care of yourself
If you are drowning in the sorrow of LE loss tonight, as a Limer or a Limer’s SO, please let the tunes of Misty Shadows accompany your tear-fall journey — 💦💦
https://www.youtube.com/live/y0XCE2PPeGg?si=li68xiG1Eo2IUwS5 — Whispers of the Twilight Path
Marcia,
Cannot find your post any more.
No, I don’t have specific butt-pictures😂imagine , having a files of butts from each LO and SO to compare!
I just have general whole body pictures where I looked at it in profile, so to say…
Unfortunately, I only remember butts from your post. And chocolate. I’m a shallow person.
Concerning friends, it’s a subjects I‘m thinking about more often these days (also triggered by the friendship with XLO issue)- what kind of friend is a real one, with which frequency of contact or intensity do I feel best without feeling crowded or abandoned… not easy to solve because it depends also on each friend as an individual.
Well, leaving out chocolate when I eat croissant for breakfast isn’t really of much use. I got really curious on this Hu now. Doing a bit of business travel next week, maybe I’ll have to time to look for it in some organic store…
😳 🔥 🍊 🍷⚧️ ➡️ 😘 🍫 👖🥐 👀
😂 😂 😂
🍫 👖,
This morning, on the way home from my early PT session with an empty stomach , I passed Target and bought two bars of Hu 🍫🍫 – one Hazelnut and one Cashew. So hungry, I gulped down two square pieces of each, and then the stomach felt irritated, as if I had very, very strong coffee — the consequence of greediness or addiction! Greedy 🤑
It would be ridiculous 🃏 if I put Hu 🍫 in my purple ♒️ without even knowing how it tastes like! I like Cashew kind better — less sweater and more smoother. 😋
Snow,
I don’t call 2 pieces greedy, that’s very modest😂if you would have swallowed the two bars, that might have been much, but two square pieces of chocolate? 🙈
Maybe your stomach doesn’t like the nut butter?
🍫 👖 🍫 👖,
I don’t know, maybe nut butter? My stomach never had problems with chocolates, and this morning I had only one double expresso before I touched Hu. It is very rich! I probably survive a whole day with two square pieces…
You don’t know my OCD tendency — so bad that I can’t keep any snacks at home; otherwise, I’d finish them in one go… I keep food and snacks that need some cooking before they can be indulged.
A double espresso on empty stomach would cause me problems!
I don’t have OCD but I cannot keep snacks either- I think I’m the greedy one of us 😉
You two and my SO make three with your snacks in the house etiquette. I am sometimws asked to hide snacks and choc but am not really to be trusted with not just eating them myself!
The problem is, my kids and SO love snacks but haven’t got a problem to just eat one piece and leave the rest.
That’s a hilarious idea to hide them! I guess if I asked my SO to do that, my kids would immediately go on a hunt.. also, my pride is in my way, I’m „it’s ridiculous, I can abstain by my own will“. You see, I can’t and won’t even go NC there.. 😉
Mila,
“having a files of butts from each LO and SO to compare!”
I would love that! Files of … er … all body parts (head to toe!) to mix and match for the perfect man! 🙂
“Unfortunately, I only remember butts from your post. And chocolate. I’m a shallow person.”
I see nothing wrong with focusing on those two topics. 🙂
“what kind of friend is a real one, with which frequency of contact or intensity do I feel best without feeling crowded or abandoned… not easy to solve because it depends also on each friend as an individual.”
Yes, very true. But it has to be mutual, no? What you and the friend need. It just seems, from my recent experience, the friend who wants less is the one who sets the terms. And if you’re the friend who wants more, well, there’s resentment.
“Doing a bit of business travel next week, maybe I’ll have to time to look for it in some organic store…”
I mean, it’s good. For fairly healthy (no dairy, low sugar) dark chocolate. But it’s not … you know … Godiva truffles or anything.
Hi Marcia,
I cannot keep track of all posts here. I‘ll concentrate on butts and chocolate.
„ It just seems, from my recent experience, the friend who wants less is the one who sets the terms. And if you’re the friend who wants more, well, there’s resentment.“
True, true. I think my recent resentment for XLO is on first glance because he wants more contact than me, but it’s actually because in the past I wanted a deeper connection that he couldn’t deliver and that’s why I don’t want his superficial contact now. Actually, at the moment I seem to have let go of this resentment. I’m ruminating about my view of him a bit, it’s astonishing how differently I can see him depending on mood. I even thought about making a post.
But now I’m tired and hungry on a train and can’t be bothered.
I would love a piece of rich chocolate now.
I think from all past LOs and ex boyfriends, my SO has the best butt, to get back to important topics. Also, my own butt is one of my good assets. Butts matter.
I feel very shallow at the moment. I also wanted to reply to Dr Ls post because the definition of limerence is very interesting and I haven’t made my mind up about it myself, but I’m feeling too shallow. I embrace my shallowness!
🍫 👖,
Please use your “shallowness” to grope your S🅾️’s👖every night, then you’d sleep more soundly 👉 💋 S🅾️’s👖😘!
Snow,
SO is on a business trip, no butt to grope🙈try not to turn to chocolate instead
Hi Mila,
“I cannot keep track of all posts here.”
I can’t, either. It’s confusing.
“but it’s actually because in the past I wanted a deeper connection that he couldn’t deliver and that’s why I don’t want his superficial contact now. ”
That’s happened to me as well. What the friend ends up sending …. is like some kind of Christmas letter update. “Here I am on my vacation.” Or a picture or a link to an article. It’s impersonal.
But do you think you wanted a deeper connection because of the limerence? I’m not talking really talking about limerence.
Ultimately, both friends have to agree on the level of communication/meetups that they want. And it’s not a conversation most people have with friends. Friendships tend to be kind of jammed/crammed around the other aspects of life.
“I would love a piece of rich chocolate now.”
Did you get some? 🙂
“I think from all past LOs and ex boyfriends, my SO has the best butt, to get back to important topics.”
So you got the best butt? 🙂 The best end of the deal?
“Butts matter.”
I have a hair fixation. Picture a middle-aged woman who still likes boy banders. Good hair, synchronized dancing. What else does a woman need in life? 🙂
“I embrace my shallowness!”
You should! 🙂
Well, I had an interesting day today… 🙂
I was coming home on the train. Three schoolboys were misbehaving, and a female rail worker turned around and barked at them to stop: “Stop mucking around, boys. You’re on a train.” The boys all looked really embarrassed, like they couldn’t believe someone had called them out, and stopped misbehaving immediately. I smiled at the boys, letting them know I’d witnessed the whole scene, including their embarrassment at being corrected by an adult woman in public.
What’s so interesting about this situation is that I felt like the female rail worker was the “Mum” and I was the “Dad” and the three boys were our mutual offspring. I felt my role as the “Dad” was to say: “I saw what happened. I’m not personally mad at you. You don’t have to feel bad, but you still have to do what your mum says, because you know deep down she’s right – don’t muck around on trains, where you could hit other passengers with your school bags, etc, etc.”
The train stopped at a station. Two of the boys hopped off. The boy who remained was the boy who had acted the most embarrassed when reprimanded, hiding the lower half of his face behind his hands. He very properly – as per train etiquette – offered me a seat (in the priority seating area for disabled people, hilariously!) before carefully choosing his own seat. “Dad’s” reward for being a kind but responsible father is that “Dad” got to sit down after a long day. The empathy of children can be amazing, if slightly constricted by age/experience. 😜
This whole scenario makes me think that children really do need a mother and a father as role models. Mothers often want their sons to behave perfectly (and not boisterously). Fathers understand that boys are generally more physically expressive than girls, and that mere boisterousness is not the same thing as naughtiness, although concern for the safety of others should still be taught.
I think I must physically resemble an adult man these days more and more, because all I have to do to convince younger males to behave is to give them a certain look. Most young mothers I see out and about have yet to master this look. Very few female teachers, no matter how gifted, ever acquire the same aura as a gifted male teacher. 🤔
I’m starting to see that fathers aren’t redundant at all to the smooth running of society, and that younger males are intensely emotionally responsive to men they perceive as trustworthy father-figures. (I.e. men who project physical strength and moral strength, but who manage to be loving and empathetic at the same time). Younger males can actually sense when older males care about them. (When I say “care”, I’m now talking about agape love, brotherly love, neighbourly love, and not about romantic relationships or limerence-related stuff). 🙂
I also remembered recently a conversation I had with a gay friend a while back. He was like: “Life is beautiful. Blah, blah, blah.” I now know what I should have said in response to him: “No, you fool. Life isn’t beautiful. That’s the dopamine talking! Only insane people believe ‘life is beautiful’. You’ve been drinking too much coffee again. You’re over your daily limit. No more caffeinated beverages for you! Step away from the mug. I repeat, step away from the mug. You’re talking rot, and I just won’t stand for it!” 🤣🤣🤣
But, seriously, folks – a strong but loving man absolutely does have the power to change the lives of future generations for the better. 🙂
@Sammy
What a lovely and nuanced observation of this moment on the train. I really enjoyed reading this, and your description of the boy who gave you a seat. How interesting to inhabit the Father role…if only for a moment!
Yes, strong and loving go very well together. And I agree, more young men should have that kind of presence in their lives. It would benefit us all, certainly.
Every time my wife and I have been at odds (only enough to count on one hand) in our parenting is when she reacts with emotion in a non-emotional situation. Women, especially mothers, react like a cat facing off a snake. It’s so reactional that it is not thought through. Or it is thought through so quickly that it comes out faster than can be filtered. In the case of cats that’s amazing. In the case of the female emotional reaction not always.
I have raised my voice twice to my wife in 25 years. One time walking in on a petty back and forth between my wife and our oldest son regarding our youngest son. Our youngest son was in tears and his bother and mother were throwing personal attacks back and forth at each other. I told them both to go outside and sit on the porch. When they continued to go at each other I pointed at the front door and raised my voice “both of you go out and sit on the porch RIGHT NOW!” I sat with our youngest son to talk to him and find out what was going on. When I got him calmed down I went out to the front porch. My wife says “you don’t have to treat me like a child.” To which I responded “than stop acting like one.”
Our oldest had been with this young lady for almost two years. They knew each other in school as friends before they started dating. He took her to prom. The whole family had met her family. They even invited us to Thanksgiving dinner one year. The three cats our son has now are kittens of one of her family’s cats. My wife and I are out on the porch one night smoking and our son comes out the front door crying. This gal he had been with all this time, had plans for the future, marriage, kids, broke up with him in a f’ing text. I got up and walked away. My wife knew I was pissed and would not be contributing to the conversation well. So as I walked away to walk around the block I looked back and there was his mother comforting him.
As a 47 year old gamer I talk to a lot of young people, especially young men. And it is appalling the amount of young men that do not have a father figure. Whether it be a biological father or a male mentor to guide them in life. I’ve had to talk to depressed young men, suicidal young men. I’ve talked birds and bees. Sexual preference. Found an alarming amount of young men with no one to help them through the transition of teens to adulthood. I even talked to a young lady from Italy with low self esteem who she felt she had no one else to talked to about why boys didn’t like her. I jokingly told her because my gender is terrible and maybe consider women. To which she told me she likes both and then I am the one speechless lol Then I said go with girls. Much better than 20 something boys.
So yeah Sammy I agree, fathers are needed just as much as mothers and visa versa.
LaR,
“But could you summarise how your thinking has changed across the years you have been on LwL? I could speculate but it is easier to ask. I’d be interested.”
Not so short answer: I now consider myself “Post-Limerent.” I might still be vulnerable to limerence but after all the work I’ve done, I don’t think so.
I stumbled on LwL after my last round of therapy with my EAP counselor on my LE/EA that was trying to figure out how I went down the rabbit hole. The EAP counselor was unfamiliar with limerence but knew a lot about co-dependence. She labeled me a co-dependent. Interestingly, a friend who helped me grind through things about LO #2 said that I wasn’t co-dependent.
They couldn’t both be right. Co-dependence doesn’t explain the dynamics of the LE with LO #2 or LO #4 so I kept looking. I stumbled on LwL and what DrL was posting did describe the dynamics of my LEs.
A really good explanation of the differences can be found on.
“https://www.andreaharrn.co.uk/co-dependent-limerent/
IMO, based on Harm and Schreiber, Limerence and Co-dependence both have similar origins based on Attachment Theory. What determines the difference is rooted in the limerents or co-dependents sense of self-worth emerging out of childhood. People with largely intact senses of self-worth emerge as limerents. People with poor senses of self-worth emerge as co-dependents.
But, that’s just my opinion. I think it would make a great PhD thesis.
I made a lot of mistakes that I didn’t have to pay for. I wasn’t good, I was blessed.
It was painful, anxiety producing and carried some potentially severe consequences.
My first post was 1 Dec 2017. Now, it’s ‘Much Ado About Nothing.”
LE,
“People with largely intact senses of self-worth emerge as limerents.”
I don’t know if I agree with this. It seems that people who with a strong sense of self wouldn’t become limerent. They sense the LO’s hot and cold behavior or half interest and walk. They don’t have oneitis and a scarcity mindset and have the attitude of: Next!
I think becoming limerent is maladaptive. It’s taking the limerent out of his/her life to fixate on … well, a fantasy. I certainly have wasted years there.
L.E,
Yeah I wondered a bit along the same lines as Marcia above, but she’s worded it tighter than I could (shock horror!).
Why do you think the more intact sense of self correlates to limerence? The less intact self = codependence side is easier to figure out.
Then there’s also the DrL line of argument that limerence also happens even to people who have had nothing major go wrong in childhood and are more secure in their attachment style. Like ‘it can happen to anyone’.
I’m more in tune with the idea that it responds to some past or present lack, but I just remembered he’s said this before.
🌽 🌱,
🫥 🤭 👀 “shock horror” 🔛 👨🌾 🎩 ❗️
😂
🏵🌱🍅🦜,
🚜🎩✍️🎯 ⤵️🎯 ✍️= 🚜🧇🧇🧇🔛 💬💬💬💬❗️
🆔 🧠 💡👉 🎩 🌽 = 〰️ 🌊 🇬🇧…
⏳ 🉑 ✍️ 💪 🎯 ♦️ & 💎 …. ⏳ 🅿️ 🍯🔛 ♒️ 📝
🚜, I still have mostly no idea what you✌🏼 are emoji-talking about! Something about 🧇🧇… 🤔
But seeing your 🚜… 🔝-P just sent me a 🖼️ of ⚖️👨🏼⚖️ driving a 🚜. 😯😂
How do you guys 🧠💡I can’t resist a 👨🏻🌾🚜❔😂
😳 “🔝- 🅿️ 🤲 🍨 🖼️ of ⚖️👨🏼⚖️ driving a 🚜“⁉️😂 😂 👉 = synchronicity! 😂 😂
🕰️ 🤞, 🚜 & 🍅🉑 🗣️ ㊙️ ✖️㊙️… 😉
🍅 🫂 🍨
🍧
Wait – 🔝- 🅿️ actually drives a 🚜?? 🍧 how do you find all of us farmers? 🤣🤣🤣
As it’s you asking, I’m going to translate the last emoji sequence to show it is mostly just idle chat between 🍅 and 🌽(after I learned to count to 100).
🍅, I think, was amused at my self deprecating joke at being unable to write points briefly.
I said that 🚜 aims to write with precision (target symbol), but that precision can often mean I waffle 🧇🧇🧇.
Mmm, I want a waffle now.
🦜 I can’t easily find translations for any Chinese and / or Japanese (Google often thinks they’re Japanese) characters. Please can you clarify meanings for ones you’re using? I’ll do some needed housekeeping on my emoji vocabulary guide soon!
🚜&🍅,
Ha! It was 🔝-P 🥇🕰️: 🚜🚜
🔝-P was just showing 📴 I swear I haven’t told him I have a thing for 🚜🚜 😂😂
🚜, 🙏🏼for de-👨🏼💻🧮. I picked up on some meanings but I have a hard 🕰️🪡 them 👉🏼👈🏼
🤞👉 —
🉑 — can, may, able to, permitted
🈶— to have, there is/are,
🈚️ — not have, have nothing, non-existing
🈷️ — month, moon
🈸 — to apply, request (not desire)
🈺 — (Japanese), to operate, to manage
🉐 — obtain(ed) through efforts (tangibles or intangibles, eg. knowledge, understandings)
㊙️ — secret(ly), private(ly)
㊗️ — wish, hope, congratulate
🈴 — unite, together, union
🈹 — to cut off, to sever
🈲 — forbidden, not-permitted
㊙️㊙️ = secrets (n.)
🈷️🈷️ = every month
🌞 🌞 = every day
🈴 ☝️/1️⃣ = (two or more) combined/united into one.
🈵 = full, satisfied; 🈵🈵 = fully, very fulfilled
🈳 = space, empty (empty space/room/heart…)
🈯️ = hand fingers, to point to 👉
🈂️ = Japanese, I don’t know.
Marcia & LaR,
Why I think that limerents develop from people that have largely intact senses of self-worth was the vibe I got trying after reading Harm and Schreiber.
The question I was really trying to answer was if codependency didn’t explain my experience, what did? Limerence did.
My idle mind then went to why do some people become co-dependents and why do some people become limerents? Schreiber goes into a fair amount of detail about how core damaged children often turn into codependent adults. Given the overlap between Limerence and codependency, I just made the leap to the origins might be similar. There’s no evidence of that connection in anything I’ve ever found. It wasn’t a burning question so I didn’t spend a lot of time thinking it through.
It also seems to fit with Avoidant Attachment Theory. Dismissive Avoidants are fundamentally ok with themselves. It’s other people they don’t trust. Anxious/Fearful Avoidants have issues with themselves and they don’t trust anybody else. I would think that Avoidants would be more prone to Limerence since the thrill is often in the chase. But, the evidence shows otherwise.
Summing up: It was a possible explanation that was consistent with my experience and what I read. That’s why I started and ended with that it was just an opinion.
“Explanations exist; they have existed for all time; there is always a well-known solution to every human problem—neat, plausible, and wrong.”
– H.L. Mencken
L.E,
I’ll probably leave it for you and Marcia to carry on your banter now, as I didn’t mean by my original question to try and drag a load of painful stuff out of you.
But I think I’ve got the gist – a Dismissive Avoidant (intact self) might enjoy the chase (limerence) where an Anxious or Fearful Avoidant might more likely get co-dependent because they have poorer sense of self. It makes sense.
The other thing I picked up from reading your various accounts was that the rescue fantasy was big for you, and that your later attempted rescues were because you had unresolved rescue business from before. Maybe it is getting to that insight that now makes you confident you are post-limerent. It helps me square up what I’ve been through a bit too, to think about how rescue came into it.
LaR,
“But I think I’ve got the gist – a Dismissive Avoidant (intact self) might enjoy the chase (limerence) where an Anxious or Fearful Avoidant might more likely get co-dependent because they have poorer sense of self. It makes sense.”
So I’m a Fearful Avoidant and I like the chase. I’d say I become anxious in the beginning of the LE, with the uncertainty. But if I land the LO (we move into a serious relationship), I become more avoidant. I mean, it’s only happened once, so I don’t know if it’s a pattern I have.
The other LEs faded. With one, there was transference. But with only that one did I feel like I “had” the person (no more uncertainty) and I was not co-dependent.
LE ,
“I would think that Avoidants would be more prone to Limerence since the thrill is often in the chase. But, the evidence shows otherwise.”
That describes me to a T.
To LaR’s point, yes, there have been posters on here who had stable childhoods and have secure attachment styles. But as a general rule, I agree with him. Limerence is a response to something lacking (could be from childhood but not always). It’s an unhealthy response that reveals far more about the limerent than the LO.
I think on some level it’s also a failure to accept reality. As in: This is futile. It’s not going anywhere. I need to accept I can’t have the LO and move on. Thus, my idea it’s an escape into fantasy.
Yep,
A well-crafted, well-managed, LE with a well-behaved LO can be a numinous thing of beauty worthy of grand opera or epic poetry on nitrous oxide.
The problem being it’s next to impossible to get all those to line up for any length of time. I wasn’t able to pull it off and I was actively trying.
But, just because I couldn’t do it doesn’t mean that it can’t be done.
Huh? No LE is ever well-crafted or well-managed. That’s a complete contradiction. Like saying tamed lust.
And how can they be a thing of beauty when they cause so mich pain and waste so much of the limerent’s time and energy?
Yep,
Go back and read my history. I didn’t start out to have an LE/EA, I drifted into it. But, I had an inkling of Glimmer from LO #4 early on. I had no idea what Glimmer was but I knew LO #4 was singing to me on some level. I knew it and she did too. I was looking for a distraction to all the real problems in my life and LO #4 provided that distraction.
Logistically, LO #4 was a non-threat so my head was free to drift pretty much anywhere it wanted to. I could go wherever the “What ifs?” took me. Reality never let me stay there long.
But, the attachment we formed became very real and when LO’s situation changed, it went south. For a time, it worked very well as a mood regulator.
Until it didn’t.
“Amore Scusami” – Jerry Vale
https://youtu.be/DEnMFooXTGQ?feature=shared
LE,
That’s your version of it. I’d like to hear your wife’s version. 😀
As I’ve written before, with the one LO I got serious with, I knew he had “distractions.” But by that point I was able to confirm them, I was pretty checked out and not planning on staying so I never confronted him about the other woman/women. Not sure if there was more than one.
Fair question.
I’ll say this.
At the time I started down that rabbit hole, my wife had failed at rehab twice, our son was diagnosed with Type I diabetes and been hospitalized for suicidal ideation and our daughter was cutting herself. The tension in the house was so thick, it was like walking underwater. My blood pressure was 160/130. The doctor said he didn’t know how my head didn’t blow off my shoulders or I didn’t stroke out.
I had consulted one of the best divorce sharks in town and the counselor at the county crisis center said that he would sign an affidavit recommending that I get sole custody and she get supervised visitation. I was going to divorce her, take her kids and there wasn’t a thing she’d be able to do to stop me.
That put the fear of God in her. My wife was in my EAP counselor’s office before I got out of my meeting with the attorney. I agreed to give her one more chance. That was the start of things getting better but it didn’t happen overnight. It took years for me to trust her. But, she was only 1/3 of the problems. It took a long time, a lot more work, and a lot of money. We called 911 twice and the police took our son out in handcuffs both times. We went through 5 psychiatrists and even more therapists. They labeled him “treatment resistant.” Our daughter has anxiety, depression, and resents us both.
I escaped into the LE and it got away from me.
It’s going on 10 years now and while we’re not completely in the clear, things are much better. My blood pressure is running ~120/80.
Not long after it all went down, I was sitting on the deck. My wife came out and asked if I still wanted to be married to her. My response was,
“I don’t know.”
I told her that I couldn’t see living out the last third of my life like this. I told her that I didn’t know that I’d be happier being somewhere else with someone else. All I knew for certain was it would be different.
I told her that I almost wished that there was someone else somewhere else because at least I’d be running toward something instead of just running away.
LE,
I certainly see why you were escaping, but your answer was about how you felt. 🙂 I wondered how your wife felt.
In my situation, I didn’t really care that he had “distractions.” And exactly what that meant, I don’t know. I know of at least one woman. Was he sleeping with her? I don’t know. I’d reached a point with him where I didn’t care. Or let’s say care enough to bring it up and discuss it.
I don’t think it’s uncommon. One person looks the other way.
Marcia,
I apologize for not addressing your question. I got off on a tangent.
I think this thread might address your question better. If not, let me know and I’ll give it another shot.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/should-you-disclose-to-your-significant-other/#comment-6445
LE,
So it sounds like she was ok with you having a distraction. At least in the case of LO #4. I will admit I don’t get this “one who got away” thing 2 of my former guy friends had. Like you and LO #2. I remember them talking about women from years ago. Both were married to other people. I don’t understand still holding on to something like that. Or a little piece of it. With one friend… it had been over 30 years. I don’t think he was longing for her but it still bothered him.
I went to church and got greeted by one of the brothers opening the doors to “Adam you’re looking dapper.” To one of the older sisters who’s always there to great everyone “Adam’s always looking dapper.” 🙂 I’ve never been called dapper.
As ZZ Top put it:
“They come runnin’ just as fast as they can
‘Cause every girl crazy ’bout a sharp-dressed man”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wRHBLwpASw
“Dapper” may be a little dated but it’s still a nice sentiment.
Dapper, dapper Adam! I finally got a mental image of you…. 😊
Once formed in conscious mind, the image ever hardly go away until the reality proves it otherwise (I could not “see” that Mila was short and thin until she said so a couple of days ago); if formed in a dream, then it comes from the Unconscious or 💭 ❔
One of those days I’ll fly to the south to check you out … 🍻
I always thought that Adam must look dapper, what with his waistcoats and suspenders! Yep, I’m short and thin, as are you, Snow, aren’t you?☺️
Yes, 🍫 👖!
I’m short but not that thin by proportion (PT is plumbing muscles on my low extremity again). And I walk fast, my Narc ego can’t tolerate anyone walking ahead me🚶🏻♀️🚶♂️ within 10 meters!
Opps: pumping muscles…
Snow,
I walk fast too, but I need definitely more muscles.
I think I’ll join the gym again after the longish business trip.
What I wore
https://imgur.com/a/K0yW3SZ
😳 Is that you and Mama?
Very dapper indeed. You look fantastic, Adam!!
Always love to see a man who likes to dress 👌
Yes that is Momma. My favorite picture from her in 2011
https://imgur.com/a/GgDbkjf
Adam,
you look very dapper and fantastic indeed, and Momma also, but are you sure she‘s ok with you you loading pictures of her up for us and everyone else to see? Just asking, if she’s ok then👍🏻she‘s much more relaxed than I would be😂
Woowoo
Now I’m reminded of Dapper Dan from O Brother Where Art Thou, lol
Adam 🥃 Adam !
You do look dapper! And my mental image of you is not far from the reality, except that I can’t see your eyes… Mama looks so spirited and genuinely happy, lucky you!
I have the same concern as Mila: is it okay to post her private pictures here?
Yeah I asked her permission. She isn’t as paranoid as I am about being on the internet. I didn’t notice she was there until I was about to upload it and waited till she woke up to ask. Then had to share my favorite photo of her that has been the background on my phone ever since.
Adam,
I found how one can delete the old uploaded photos (so you can have a control how long you want the photos to be there) without deleting your file.
1. Go to “create” function
2. Choose, “+photo” button
3. In your album, unselect the ones that were uploaded.
4. Voila, in a second, they are gone!
I wonder how this site makes their money, sheerly by ads?
Adam 🥃 ,
Correction: you still need to delete your entire file IF you want to remove the old uploaded photos.
Out of interest, has anyone ever asked their LO to stop contacting them? For people who have just gone NC without explaining, was there any guilt? How did you handle that?
My LO has been blocked, but she is still trying to get through to me. It’s hot he wondering if a short explanation is necessary (and polite?)
Thank you
I should also say that she’s a work LO, and I have previously disclosed (just for those who I’ve not had the pleasure of chatting with yet!)
Hi Justme,
I work with my LO but it is remote and infrequent. LaR works with his LO, also. Mila used to work with her exLO. (You’ll notice that I don’t go so far as to name check mine as ‘exLO’ yet, its because, while I am very much feeling recovered, I am not quite sure how I will react when I see him again). Anyway, you asked about work LOs and whether it is polite to explain about the NC, given that you have already disclosed – I am going to assume here that you are being completely honest with yourself about motivations and that ‘explaining’ has nothing to do with ‘backsliding’ (see previous comments :D) – so, assuming the latter, I think it does depend on the extent of your work relationship with this person. Before limerence and even before friendship with this woman, how frequent were your *work* interactions? If not frequent at all, then I don’t really see much need to explain NC – given that you’ve already disclosed. If you do have more frequent work interactions, then *perhaps* some fairly non committal comment the next time this comes up or she knocks on your door might be useful. I mean a verbal comment such as ‘Sorry, I’ve been out of touch but I’d like to just keep things on a professional footing – is that okay?’
I would definitely not put something into writing, though, because that is a really bad idea at work since it might be used against you. Then, all you need to manage are the work interactions – any contact outside of work email or work phone number can be ignored. But as you have already disclosed, she should know why you’re not responding on social media, or out of office hours, right? So maybe you need to do nothing….
In my own case and I think in LaR’s, also, the LO seemed to get onto the same page and stopped initiating quite so much after a while. Your LO doesn’t seem to be like that, though?
@Bewitched Thanks so much for your reply. It’s actually been very comforting, since I had started to feel really badly about myself (which is me all over and a whole other blog!!)
The more I’ve thought about it today, the more I think that your views are logical and sensible. Our PURE WORK interactions are few and far between. The vast majority are (for the last month or so) mainly instigated by LO. So limiting it to strictly work would mean very little contact actually.
She seems reluctant/unable/unwilling to let go at the moment. I think that I’m just going to have to be patient and hope that she realises that that is what I want and need. No other communication is necessary or wise.
Thanks so much for your thoughts
More applicable to the other side of the coin but check these out:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/case-study-ghosted-by-lo/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-for-a-co-worker/
@Limerent Emeritus
Thank you for those. Very interesting.
JM
I think there was somewhere a post from Marcia to me, but I cannot find it! and I‘m a bit stressed/short of time at the moment.( I also started some posts to people with the intention to say something helpful, but then realized I didn’t have it in me. I‘m a bit burnt out maybe.)
Sorry Marcia. It was surely about butts and chocolate and friends. All the important stuff!
This week I’m working with the guy who will maybe replace XLO at work, if he‘ll get the job. It’s very strange because he seems even more „gifted but somehow neurodivergent or socially strange“ than XLO. I realize that I have to be careful not to transfer mixed feelings and resentment- funny how the mind works. Mainly I try to steer clear of him at the moment,I feel a bit paranoid.
So me and my LO worked together at a restaurant as servers. She was still in college in another state so she was only ever working there on her breaks. We wound up hooking up a few days before she went back to college and we texted back and forth quite a bit then. She came back for a week a few months later and didn’t really want to hangout or do anything and just wanted to be friends. She was the first girl i had any sort of relationship with and she was my first time having sex too. She has BPD and i have ADHD so really bad combo i feel like for a limerent relationship. She’s always been hot and cold with me, we’d go out for drinks with people from work and we’d wind up making out. Next day she’s apologizing because she feels like she hurt me and doesn’t want to lead me on. We’ve been pretty open about everything with each other, she knows how i feel about her because she has had that similar feeling with her previous favorite person’s. She had actually initiated NC when she got with her current boyfriend and then reached back out when they recently broke up, apologizing saying he was super insecure and was over her shoulder during the conversation when she went NC with me. We shared some deep emotional conversations and it seemed like things were going my way for once. Come to find out not a week after that she got back together with her ex and i was still in that mindset of her getting over him and wanting to be with me. I went NC after that because i had found out about limerence and actually put a name to the feelings i had for her. I’ve still wound up checking some socials a few times since i went NC but it’s getting easier and easier to let it go. I think a big fuel for me was her BPD, she had done some therapy for it but she always has thought that she can’t change and get better. I on the other hand had always tried to help her see that she could. Obviously you can’t convince someone that they need to get help, they have to see that for themselves. Part of me is hoping that she will get better soon, she seemed like she was starting to finally realize that she could change, or at least she was heading that way. If she did reach back out and actually seem like she was finally interested in dating, i would probably take her back but i’d also have to make sure that it wasn’t just gonna be the same as before.
Hi Patrick, thank you for sharing your story.
You are correct that BPD is treatable. DBT is an effective treatment. I’ve seen it help my daughter. She learns skills for self-regulation which makes life a little easier for the rest of us. It’s hard to live with someone who has BPD.
That being said, something that I’ve learned along the way is that people who have BPD are not boring. After reading your post, I was left with some questions. Why is his LO significant to him? Does Patrick enjoy drama? Is his LO significant simply because he has limited experience with women?
Hopefully the drama isn’t alluring to you. It’s exhausting! If the drama is alluring, I recommend that you take up some exciting hobbies to fill that need. I prefer to get my excitement from outdoor activities, you might give hiking a try.
Best wishes!
I’ll be honest with you, i’ve asked myself the same thing sometimes about whether it’s because of her being my first or not. I do think it’s more than that, I do really like her and it’s definitely not the drama. I really didn’t talk to her almost at all before we hooked up at work so other than knowing she made music, i had no idea about who she was and she also wasn’t diagnosed with bpd at the time. She said she knew she had something, but wasn’t sure exactly what, she is a very self aware person when it comes to some things but not so much with others. It wasn’t until a few months after we initially hooked up that she knew she was diagnosed. So she’s only really known it was bpd for about a year and a half.
I was never her Favorite Person, which is kind of a double edged sword because of how much more complicated the whole thing would be, but also if I was her FP, then maybe we would have dated and my limerence would have went away.
She recently told me part of the reason she thinks she couldn’t date me is because she feels like she could do anything to me and I would still come back. Which don’t get me wrong, at one point in time between us that probably was the case. But more recently i’ve done a lot of growing myself and while I don’t think I’d be completely ready myself, I know that if I can get over this limerence, then maybe there could be something between us, if that’s even possible.
Patrick, I’ve been thinking about this all day. I’ve drafted a few responses and deleted them. I am struggling to focus on your limerence because I prefer to address your LO’s BPD. I have two family members with BPD symptoms. It is sooooo hard to love someone who has BPD. It’s exhausting and painful. When you are their “favorite person” they require a lot of attention and quite frankly, it feels like no matter how much you give, it’s never enough. Their attention-seeking behavior can be destructive and criminal. I’m shocked at the lengths they will go to for attention. I prefer that you avoid relationships with women who have BPD if you possibly can. That being said, when my sister is in a stable relationship, our lives are so much easier. A few months ago, my sister sent us a Facebook profile of a man who she was seeing. My brother said, “we should contact this guy and warn him.” My dad said, “Please don’t do that. He will figure it out and in the meantime, we can enjoy some peace while he distracts your sister.” I am probably sharing too much information, but I want you to understand that BPD is a bigger problem than you realize.
If you were my little brother, I would say, “I am so glad that your LO isn’t interested in perusing a relationship with you. Whew! You dodged a bullet. Now, quit sleeping with women who aren’t your wife. Find a nice girl and settle down.”
I know that isn’t remotely what you want to hear.
I would also want to talk to you about how intimacy triggers bonding hormones. Of course you feel drawn to your LO. You were intimate with her. Maybe you could save that stuff for marriage.
I have no doubt that you don’t want to hear any of this.
You said something that I want to address…
“ She recently told me part of the reason she thinks she couldn’t date me is because she feels like she could do anything to me and I would still come back.”
That statement reminds me of my sister’s first husband. She used to tell people that she divorced her first husband because he wouldn’t fight with her. I don’t understand her mindset at all.
Anyway, I don’t think I’m being helpful. Patrick, I’m sorry that you’re suffering. It’s hard to desire closeness from someone who isn’t interested in getting close.
Best wishes!
Patrick,
I have a very different opinion on attempting to try and craft a successful relationship with a borderline.
I have two professional opinions that LO #2 had a Cluster B personality disorder. One considered her to have NPD, one considered her to have BPD. They were not a diagnosis since neither professional ever treated LO #2, although one met her multiple times when we dated.
Years later, I was in therapy in an overdue effort to understand the relationship as the ghost of LO #2 was impacting my marriage. None of them expressed a positive opinion of them.
I was casually chatting with a psychiatrist one day and told her her that I spent 5 years with a possible borderline. Her response:
“Impressive. They can be quite a handful.”
I wrote wrote a 12 page history of the relationship. I asked the therapist if she thought that it could have ever been a viable relationship. Her response was, “No.”
The therapist asked I’d ever consider re-engaging LO #2? I told her not as long as I was married. Her response was,
“You’ve convinced me that she’s a borderline so stop trying to convince yourself that she’s not.”
As Lovisa points out, it’s possible to treat BPD. However, many therapists won’t as they consider them treatment resistant. There is as much clinical literature that supports position as there is literature that supports how to survive a relationship with a borderline. Don’t get me started on “radical acceptance.”
The therapist ended the session with,
“It’s not that borderlines can’t change. They just usually don’t.”
Her recommendation was that if I ever became available, don’t re-engage her.
Relationships with borderlines can carry significant risks. False police reports, false pregnancy claims, restraining orders and threats of suicide are a few of them. Heaven help you if you marry one. I asked LO #2 to marry me an she declined. One therapist said,
“You were lucky that woman didn’t marry you. Your life could have been so much worse.”
I have a personal acquaintance who was evicted from his apartment, arrested, spent time in jail, and plea bargained a sentence on a charge filed by his live-in BDP girlfriend. She wasn’t on the lease. She was a social worker who knew all the key words and trickey to tell the police and prosecutor to screw him over. He was paying rent for a squatter while dealing with all his legal problems. “Radical Acceptance” was a disaster for him.
My recommendation is to, as one professional put it. “Get away her and stay away from her. Stay involved with this woman and it will not well for you.”
The next concern is why you were attracted to her. Check out Why can’t I get over my first love?. If the link doesn’t work, go to the Archive at the bottom of the page.
Anybody can tangle with one. If you find yourself attracted to them in the future , watch out! I see attraction to borderlines to be akin to finding out your allergic to bee stings. You don’t know your allergic until it happens.
You could go your whole life with encountering it never knowing how close to death you were.
I wish you the best.
Patrick,
If you do decide to pursue a further acquaintance with this woman I recommend you read: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK430883/
It is the best overall description of BPD I’ve seen and based on its date, incorporates the latest in clinical thinking. I doubt you would find a better description anywhere and the source is a good as it gets. It will explain to you what you’re up against and what the likelihood of a favorable outcome could be.
If you do continue to engage this woman, ask her the specific diagnostic criteria the therapist used to arrive at the diagnosis. It takes 5 of 9 criteria to arrive at a diagnosis. If she can’t tell you, I’d be very suspicious of her claims to have made a sincere attempt at therapy. I can say from experience that borderlines can talk a very good game. It seems to be a hallmark of any Cluster B personality disorder.
Now, I’ll venture into some controversial territory. BPD can carry a significant social stigma. A frequently heard argument is “You wouldn’t hold a cancer patient in low regard and treat them differently for having cancer, you shouldn’t hold someone with BPD in low regard and treat them differently.” This compares apples to oranges. Dealing with cancer patients doesn’t come with the same risks as dealing with a borderline. Cancer patients aren’t inherently dangerous, borderlines can be dangerous and people who are aware of that, treat them accordingly. Sorry, but “I’m a borderline, you gotta accept me” doesn’t cut it.
Also, there seems to be an indication where BPD has become socially trendy. The popularity of shows like “Crazy Ex-Girlfriend” I believe unintentionally fostered this. I loved the show but I found parts of it triggering. The main character, Rebeca Bunch, played by Rachel Bloom, is diagnosed with BPD in the late seasons. Rachel Bloom said that she has OCD and consulted mental health professionals as to how to portray BPD accurately. She does a marvelous job at the portrayal.
BPD can become a very convenient excuse for bad behavior. Also, for every person who has a diagnosis of BPD, there are likely more who claim to but have never been diagnosed, and even more persons likely have BPD who have it but are unaware of it. They never seek treatment because they don’t think they have a problem. They just leave chaos in their wake. Borderlines may only seek treatment after being forced into it by the consequences of their behavior.
If someone ever told me that they have BPD and I don’t have to deal with them, my response to them would be, “I’m sorry to hear that” and excuse myself from the conversation.
If it seems like I have a particularly negative view of borderlines it’s because I do. I’ve had enough of them to last a lifetime. One was enough. In addition to LO #2, I think I’ve encountered several more in the course of my life. However, I never really tangled with any of them.
I encountered someone with BPD in the wife of an ex-LO. I soon discovered that she was very abusive to her kids, and if her husband could be believed (he himself had narc traits), to him, too. I saw her go on a rampage against a mutual friend for what—best as I could tell—was an imagined slight. I could go into more detail but it would doxx her….She decided she had issues with me, and after she raged against me, I cut off relations with her—but all these years later, she still spies on me online.
But I have another friend with BPD, from middle school, who I keep up with on Facebook; she’s treated for it and is an advocate against child abuse.
SL,
Ah, the Narcissist/borderline relationship. The prototype of a match made in Hell.
Shari Schreiber has a great article on them but it’s behind a paywall. One therapist said I have “distinctly Narcissistic defenses” but I wasn’t a narcissist. I had the therapist read Schreiber’s article and asked if LO #2 and I were in a Narcissist/Borderline relationship.
She said not exactly but we did a really good imitation of one.
I did some reading on the dynamic back when I was working on figuring out and healing from the experience. From what I recall, it sounded a lot like what I’d witnessed.
Just some commentary on limerence-related YouTube videos, because, as everyone knows, I sometimes like to write informal pocket reviews of these things:
Dr. L, I got around to watching the video called “Embarrassing Limerence Mistakes”. (I was avoiding it out of shame). I like the deep voice you put on when you were pretending to be the first two fictional male limerents. You managed to sound almost creepy. Didn’t know you were hiding that breadth of theatrical talent in you! See, I was right about your ability to tell a good story… 👍
Your insight into the rationalisation people make about workplace limerence was also fascinating i.e. compartmentalisation, “work me” and “home me”. Never been in workplace limerence, so I’ve never really thought about that issue. 🙂
About two years ago, Fenna Van Den Berg made a video intriguingly called “Do not be the Best Version of Yourself”. Some well-meaning person apparently told her to be “best version of herself” (as a solution to limerence possibly?) and Fenna’s response is very funny and delivered with impeccable comic timing. “That’s what I’m going to achieve today. I’m going to be the best version of myself. There’s only one tiny little problem. I don’t know what the **** that means.” 🙄😲😜
Oh my God! I love this woman! Not only beautiful, but also hilarious! Cracks me up every time! I know people need to watch what they say on YouTube, due to apparently heavy censorship, but I can relate to Fenna’s sentiment. 👌
Personally, nowadays, I aspire to be “the least interesting version of myself”. I feel the “least interesting version of myself” is closer to the authentic me anyway. 🙂
👁️🗨️ “The least interesting.…” ❔ by whose measuring stick ❓
Does “the authentic me” remain the same or evolve organically and situationally❓
Are we same/similar as our baby self, teenage self, and adult self 🧐 ❓ Are we same prior and post a gigantic 💥 limerence ❔❓
Sammy,
Did you know that Fenna was once quite active on LwL under a screen name?
She may still be but so far hasn’t outed herself .
Wow LE. You are a font of knowledge, as usual.
Did she used to post under her real name? I think I came across that name (which is quite unusual) in older posts….
Bewitched,
No.
Fenna posted under a screen name. She accidentally outed herself and I just happened to catch it before DrL could correct it. I’ve outed myself via email address, twice. She outed herself by name. DrL is great about taking care of things but being a one-man shop, sometimes things can stay up awhile.
Her tale was very interesting and she may have talked about it in her videos. I haven’t watched them so I don’t know.
If you hang around as long as I have, you remember some people more than others. Fenna is on that list. The fact that I remember all this kind of stuff means I spend way too much time here.
That’s all I’ll say because I don’t want to out her.
Looking back, it’s almost like the early posters formed a kind of club. Nobody knew anything and DrL was breaking new ground every week. Now, I see him in more of the refining phase of LwL. Lowendj, Sophie, My Limerent Brain Is An Idiot, Fred, Lee, and a few others set the tone at the time. Everybody had a different aspect of limerence that they were dealing with. They were kind of SMEs in their own area. Now, it’s rare to see a truly new angle on things. The people are different but there’s likely a former poster with a pretty similar story. You may have to really dig to find it but it’s probably there.
I saw the same kind of development on LO #4’s site as time progressed. She’d take old blogs and refine them.
Hi LE,
I almost outed myself a few times too (switched typing between *Name and *Email boxes by accident before posting my comment, but just caught it in time). That was a scary. I have consciously slowed down in my replies to reduce the risk of that happening again. These days I only reply when I have time to do so, privately (no interruptions), and ideally on my PC rather than on my phone.
Believe it or not I am starting to feel like an ‘old timer’ on here myself these days, although I am a mere child compared with some of you others :)). I have read so many posts of former contributors over the years, the ones you listed, plus Jaideaux, Limmy, Call me Cordelia, C for Cat, etc. and I learned a lot from all of them. I totally agree with your three categories of limerent:
“Limerents who’ll thrive no matter what you do to them.
Limerents who’ll fail no matter what you do for them.
And
Limerents whose outcomes depend on what you can do for them and the effort they put in. The rate of return is based on the limerent.”
Its the final category, those who work hard on it and even soar because of it (I’d put Dr L in that final category) that are the most interesting to me because I think its like making a silk purse from a sow’s ear. The ‘altered’ state of mind can usher in new ways of living life to the better, ideally, of course not everyone’s circumstances lend themselves to that. But it is ultimately in our power also to change or improve our circumstances, even those of us with major challenges at home, with family members, or whatever.
Also, although it may sometimes be vexing to see new people arrive and go through the well-worn paths above, even to the point of willfulness and avoidable self destruction, I am very glad that you choose to stick around, to help and guide them. I’ve waited a few days to say this to you because I wanted to give Sammy’s tribute the oxygen it deserved! I hope you get that chocolate award – the Lifetime Achievement Award – in the post before Easter 😋🥚🐣.
Bewitched,
Thank you for your kind words.
I came to LwL looking for answers, I stayed because I see it as a small type of payback. DrL does the work, I only direct traffic.
My hope is that in addition to actually helping people, my being here means DrL doesn’t have to be and can focus on other things.
It’s kind of an ENTJ thing. ENTJs see potential in some people and get energized in helping them achieve it.
LE and Bewitched,
I’m less of an old timer but have read a lot of the old stories.
One especially helpful thing when I was deepest in the weeds was to see that no story had the fairytale ending of limerent and LO riding happily off into the sunset. L.E. can you think of any? I think a guy (?Steve) once checked back much later to say he was married to his one-time LO, but I have no idea how that panned out. Maybe we get a biased sample here and the ones that work out just don’t ever come on LwL??
I think it’s great that there’s always a mix of people here who range from new ones joining in the eye of the storm, all the way through to people who are recovered from their LE and even some who say they are ‘post limerent’.
When I was newer here, having ‘old timers’ around (and I mean ‘old’ only in limerence/LwL years!) served as motivational, still does – to be able to think ‘people were in a similar place to where I’m at now and got to the other side’. It is hard to see the existence of the other side when you’re in the grip. So to be able to get that reassurance not only that people got to the other side, but also practical advice on how, has been very helpful.
You can get some of that from reading the LwL back catalogue, but not without massive effort. It gets much easier once you start interacting with people who can curate the old stories.
I get it from the other side too, like when someone new arrives with a story starting “There is this coworker friend of mine …”, you kind of know what’s coming and that certain stages will usually be passed through in predictable orders.
I find each person’s story unique in its own way, yet you find a lot of similarities. For instance, this initial idea in many people that somehow they are unique and that a special friendship with their LO will somehow transcend their limerence. I was probably the most dogged ‘clinger on’ to this idea in the last year among active posters but have now moved past it to a good extent. But even then when I dug in, I received helpful challenges. I was also reading the back catalogue and thinking “I struggle to find anyone who has ever pulled that off” (escaped an LE with an authentic friendship with the LO). You start to question why you would be so special as to be the first active poster to pull that off. Then you realise you’re not!
Eventually you can start to calibrate the expectations of other new posters who turn up with the same mindset (at least 3 of those here in the last month or so).
I’m now trying to be rid of the tail end of my LE and figure out how I can work cordially with the person / keep a decent but much-reduced dynamic with them without either disclosure or unwanted thoughts. I don’t have the answer yet but again LwLers further down the track might be able to help me – whether that’s by saying ‘like this’ or ‘it’s unlikely to work’.
Which is a long way round of saying ‘please old timers, whether you are faux curmudgeons or white dames, stick around here as long as you can, and as long as it doesn’t harm you, even if only a little input when you have time!’
There is ‘same but different’ in every new story.
Dear LaR and LE,
You are both very wise. After our exchange, I have two new nuggets.
“Clearing the way for others” on this blog as an act of gratitude is a powerful idea – and one that possibly maps onto purposeful living for you, LE?! We all need the long term knowledge but also ‘overview’ because sometimes you need to be outside the forest to see the trees.
I like the idea that reading other posters comments help to “calibrate” our own magical thinking. I never really considered how reading more and more comments on these pages helped me to realise that having our cake and eating it (in limerence) is a ‘unicorn’ event. We may start out thinking that our personal limerent event is so special that we are somehow going to break the mold and manage to maintain a deep and special friendship with LO, without all the down sides. But reading more and more comments brings home the reality that its quite unusual and that limerence + close friendship are mutually exclusive for most people. For me personally, it wasn’t about maintaining friendship, but maintaining a special connection. That wasn’t true and I needed to let go.
LaR – you asked a question a few weeks ago and I have been pondering it. I think I know the answers, but had refrained from getting back in touch because, actually, a bunch of newcomers on the site had been in real turmoil and I didn’t want to distract from the community helping them – a sort of ’emergency’ situation. So, the question was the classic ‘Why this LO?’ because I think that I had been describing how I never seriously considered him as superior to my SO on any facet and he wasn’t appealing to my middle age by being extra gorgeous or anything. The answer is very shallow, I’m afraid. He was attracted to me (it was obvious), and I liked the validation. That was enough to suck me in. I also found him interesting, I really liked aspects of his character. But we weren’t really compatible in other ways and I knew this straight from the start.
In my case, the ‘why now’ was also important, as I have described a very bad patch in family health problems.
So there you have it – how shallow am I!? No major childhood trauma to blame, a traumatic period in my life and lots of stress, sure, but it otherwise just boils down to plain old attention. So many problems in the world are probably caused by people not getting the right attention, jeez.
I thought that this story would amuse you in your current fatigued state.
🧐😏😉
Bewitched & LaR:
I don’t know if it maps onto purposeful living or not. I just know it seems right for me. It’s not the first time. The similarities between my behavior on LO #4’s site and LwL are nearly identical and I it for the same reasons. Only LO #4 was an attractive redhead that reminded me of LO #2.
LO #4 acted as an unpaid second opinion on my son’s treatment plan for anxiety and depression. The LE/EA acted as a catalyst for me to address things that I need to address. It was unintentional, carried a lot of risk, I made a lot of mistakes that I didn’t have to pay for, and I don’t recommend anyone going that route by choice. But, sometimes, good intentions do yield good results and, depending on your cosmology, somebody may be watching out for you and the breaks go your way.
When she disappeared when her relationship collapsed, I kind of assumed the role of steward on her site and kept things running as well as I could given the the power I had. When she returned she said how grateful she was. It deepened the attachment. Not only was I attracted to her, I felt that I owed her. That feeling really complicated ending things.
Both her site and LwL helped me a lot. As adjuncts to working with a therapist, their sites were invaluable. Their sites helped me refine and answer questions, and provide validation. Interacting with other posters allowed me to express ideas and feelings in an anonymous, open, and non-judgmental environment. Their sites helped me to take charge of things vice merely responding to them. Successful change programs begin with results. LO #4 and DrL helped me define what the problems were, what the goals were, how to measure progress and how to define success. The time, effort, and money this saved can’t be calculated. I don’t know where I’d be if I hadn’t encountered either LO #4 or DrL.
That’s a lot to be grateful for.
Do I know of any limerents that went on to long term relationships with their LOs? Not really. To rehash old ground, DrL says limerence may not be all bad. I agree with that. My contention was that it seems like only limerents for whom limerence is causing problems in their life, whether they’re single or attached, seem to wind up here.
My contention, which DrL challenged, is “If there are limerents out there for whom limerence was not a problem and they went on to happy relationships with their LO, you won’t find them posting here.” DrL cited himself as a partial example. Check out https://livingwithlimerence.com/my-story/. He was limerent for his wife. However, he hadn’t corrected a vulnerability and another LO came along. He got out of the LE and thought she was gone. She wasn’t and there are 2 blogs about when LOs return. You can find those in the archives.
A lot depends on whether you’re an attached or unattached limerent.
If you want to pull a related string check out https://livingwithlimerence.com/what-to-do-if-you-are-married-but-limerent-for-someone-else/
It’s an early blog but interest was revived a few years later. It’s noteworthy for several reasons. Lee, the SME on ending a marriage to an unrepentant limerent, has a lot of posts there. It also may mark the arrival of Marcia and Sammy. When she arrived, Marcia and I clashed. Over time, we got more on the same page. I don’t know if Marcia and I are in the same quadrant but I think we’re in same hemisphere.
Tangentially, I know 3 people who ended long term marriages and went on to apparently successful long term marriages with their subsequent partners. Two were the attached partner, one was the self-described “home-wrecking hussy that broke up the marriage.” I didn’t personally observe the details of any of them. The subsequent marriages range between 10-40 years and the 40 year one ended because of death. The two remaining marriages are still going. I have no idea if limerence was involved in any of them.
For me, this stuff runs really deep and is pretty complex. That’s the way I’m wired.
Once again, more than you probably wanted to know.
Dear LE,
“That’s a lot to be grateful for”. Indeed. I have been around long enough to have pieced together your similar role on LO#4’s site. I had forgotten that she helped advise with your son (kudos to her) and of course that must have been the most potent aphrodisiac once she got single and vulnerable (not to mention red-headed) herself. As I recall, you were also dealing with other family issues. … that must have been hard.
I agree that you were lucky to escape unscathed, and I’ve always thought from your descriptions that she was a “good LO” (LO#4), which is probably the worst type in terms of falling way down the limerence hole – I mean, when you can’t really fault them. Part of the reason I turned my back on my LO was mutual respect. And his brand new baby (gawd 😫).
“A lot depends on whether you’re an attached or unattached limerent.
If you want to pull a related string check out https://livingwithlimerence.com/what-to-do-if-you-are-married-but-limerent-for-someone-else/”
I agree that, for me, limerence isn’t all bad because I feel that I’ve found out a lot about myself and have made some improvements because of it. Not all cosmetic, either 🙂
As an aside, I do remember Lee’s contributions on that blog and I remember thinking that you are Marcia were always, *always*, bosom buddies. I’d love to dig out blogs where ye clashed. That’s worth the price of an entry ticket 😆. (@Marcia, what do you reckon?)
More seriously, I’m going to go away and consider some of the things you’ve said because I feel like I don’t want to waste this opportunity to do some more self-realisation.
LE,
I never got your story with LO#4 straight, it is scattered in my head all over places. Now, let me ask you a couple of question, and answer only if you want to:
1. You met LO4 online but never in person. Have you ever seen her image or spoke with her online or over phone?
2. She helped you work on your son’s issues, but you also got your own issues resolved/managed by interacting with her (along her website and LwL).
3. Why did you define it as LE/EA, instead of deep friendship? If it was LE, what were the symptoms? How did it affect your private life? Did your wife know about it?
4. How did LE4 leave you? You went to NC with LO4 (she’s 2500 miles away, right?), or LE fire completely extinguished in your system, while you’re here and on her site helping other LwLers? How long did the LE4 last?
If you remember: last April, I said that losing my last job might be a blessing in disguise, it might be proven true. Only time will tell. Life is unpredictable to me, one needs open mind to knowns as well as sharp awareness/vigilance to LE, to which I I was very prone; still? not sure.
🅱️ 🧙,
“More seriously, I’m going to go away and consider some of the things you’ve said because I feel like I don’t want to waste this opportunity to do some more self-realisation.”
Going away from LwL, or some realistic places? Do you feel you’ve completely out of your LE now?
If you go away, some Limmies in the throe of LE might feel lost… I’m lucky to have benefited a great deal by hiding behind your broomstick!
Snow,
I will answer your questions. It’s going to take some time. I’ll probably address each question in its own new post.
Dear Snow,
“Going away from LwL, or some realistic places? Do you feel you’ve completely out of your LE now”
I dont feel completely cured because I will see him again and perhaps relapse a little. But the pattern is that the relapses get less severe. He might not affect me very much at all, this time. A bit like imho, I am not sure if I will see him again many times after that, though. Virtual contact is always happening sporadically (and almost always about work) but in person stuff is rare and may come to an end soon (that was always where it flared up most spectacularly for me).
No, I am not going anywhere, Snow. That was just a figure of speech to say that I mean to make time for some reflection. It is timely because of where my brain is at right now. I would consider myself content but also questioning or maybe thoughtful about things in my life and where it is headed. So I want to act on that by doing some thinking, that’s all. Talking things out with you lot and reading your collective posts helps me a lot, so I’m not going anywhere in reality 🫠🤗.
👩🦰 🏃 ,
Okay, I’m looking forward to hearing your story in order, even in separate posts. It’ll help kill my airport waiting time. I never expected LwL to be such a “reforming/transforming” place… I initially thought it was a just a “Wall”, but not the Great Wall, that I need to climb up and down…
🅱️ 🧙,
So glad to hear you’ll be hanging around here and telling us your invaluable insights. Not in the shoes of you and many others (with SO), I could not provide any imaginary input; however, I do listen to others’ lamentations, which sideline gave me an insight peek of humanities, which made me further reflect on my LE (continue fading more into distance with no emotional charge) and existence. Again, I’m glad that my cptsd got so much “cured” with the major benefits of Stoicism in solid practice — I NEED it at the daily basis…
Not sure if I mentioned before, that I do feel you’re like an imagined/idealized surrogate Mom (better without a face) to me and I feel safe to sail in the compassionate ocean of your humanity. I often wonder how you have formed such an ocean (without claiming being a buddhist), while I feel like a perpetual kid every time I hear you talking….
With much happening in my present state, in addition to an uncertain “threat” hanging over my head (will find out in early May), I cannot focus well on more self-reflection nowadays. The anticipation of seeing new places probably has taken over my mind again….I want to appreciate every bit of the trip.
Later. (Sorry, I always slip into a monologue mode)
LE,
Were there any cases that involved the East//Asia and had somewhat different philosophical, spiritual, or cultural approaches and treatments of LE? I know “why” is from the East (not sure where), but she doesn’t talk much here.
Can you summarize such cases if any? I don’t have time or energy to dig them out.… thanks in advance!
Snow,
There may have been some but I don’t remember any specifics. Some posters made references to LOs being in another country or referencing their “COO” but didn’t identify it.
My suggestion is that you search for Twin flames blogs. There are only 2. They refer to several others. My guess that if they are any, that’s where you’ll find them.
LE,
I can’t finish watching even one YT clip on Twin Flame stuff! So I would not invest my limited time and energy on that.
In terms of cultural conditioning and metamorphosis, I feel/believe that I’m the One and Only who is stubborn to hell in some aspects of life, but fast to change like a lighting bolt in other areas, which shocked myself repeatedly. I can’t help attribute it to Dad’s mental 🔨 .
I do believe (without enough data) that sensitivity, sensibility, and understandings in one’s backbone (actually felt around stomach area) can be cultivated borderless through music, arts, films, poetry, emojis 🤭… and inexhaustible curiosity…
@Limerent Emeritus.
“Did you know that Fenna was once quite active on LwL under a screen name?”
Yes, I become vaguely aware of that fact a couple of months ago when she dropped in to say hello to us all (as Fenna). I think I had watched a handful of her videos before then…
I doubt I could work out which poster was Fenna, nor is that my desire. Obviously, like most limerents in a limerent episode, she’s been on quite a journey, so I imagine she would have embodied more than one “persona” in her time as she tried to sort out her thoughts and feelings. 🙂
I remember several female posters from a while back who were both highly intelligent and extremely bitter – an electrifying combination. If any of them were Fenna, in their written work, they didn’t express the dazzling heights of sarcastic joy Fenna sometimes reaches in her video work.
Sarcasm is something that’s not meant to cross language/cultural barriers very well. Fenna is Dutch; I’m Australian. Her sarcastic humour, though, is clear as day to me – even though she’s talking with a completely straight face. It’s all in her exasperated tone of voice, her self-aware stubbornness, her little self-reproaches. She is just … really, really, really cool. 🙂
In response to her general question, did I (as a limerent) genuinely like my LO or simply like the hormones involved, the answer is I liked the … hormones. Only the hormones, baby. Only the hormones. 🤣🤣🤣
As Dr. Ll says repeatedly in his videos, romantic love is one heck of a strong drive. 😜
It was interesting to watch Fenna grab the rudder, get underway and take off.
You can see from her posts when it happened.
I never sensed any bitterness in her. Her exasperation was especially evident in her early posts as was her sense of humor. I interacted with Dutch business colleagues periodically so to me, she was easy to understand. The cultural differences weren’t that pronounced.
I liked her “What the —- was I thinking?!” sense of incredulousness.
Hang around LwL long enough and you’ll see 3 types of limerents.
Limerents who’ll thrive no matter what you do to them.
Limerents who’ll fail no matter what you do for them.
And
Limerents whose outcomes depend on what you can do for them and the effort they put in. The rate of return is based on the limerent. For some, a little input yields a huge benefit. For some, a lot of effort yields a fractional result.
After awhile, you can guess at which group a limerent will fall into and it may not take all that long to see.
IMO, Fenna fell into the last group. From what she was posting, it was apparent that she was driving her bus and what she was doing was yielding solid results.
It was apparent that she thought something needed to change. She exercised her agency and she soared. IMO, she figured out a few things in a relatively short period of time and off she went.
Fenna, if you’re reading this, I hope you see it as a somewhat accurate recollection and take it as the compliment I intend it to be.
@Limerent Emeritus.
Good grief, Limerent Emeritus! You’re actually making sense for a change! I would order you to “make it make sense”, which is the English translation of a popular phrase in Afrikaans I believe, (or possibly just a regular phrase in Nigerian English?), but you are making sense. You’re writing in clear, lucid prose that anyone can understand, and not treating us to bizarre mathematical equations.
I can’t think of any response to you regarding Fenna, because you are so clear and focused in your observations. And I’m sure Fenna will take anything you say as the compliment you intend it to be. 🙂
However, I was amused by your comments to Bewitched, and thought up an entire comedic routine in response to that, so here goes:
“Looking back, it’s almost like the early posters formed a kind of club. Nobody knew anything and DrL was breaking new ground every week. Now, I see him in more of the refining phase of LwL. Lowendj, Sophie, My Limerent Brain Is An Idiot, Fred, Lee, and a few others set the tone at the time. Everybody had a different aspect of limerence that they were dealing with. They were kind of SMEs in their own area. Now, it’s rare to see a truly new angle on things.”
Aw. Poor Mr Limerent Emeritus! It’s hard, isn’t it, going from being a blue whale in a fishbowl to being a dolphin in a marine park? It’s hard, isn’t it, when scientists decide to downgrade your status from “major planet in own right” to “moon that escaped the orbit of its planet and is now orbiting the sun for some strange reason, just like a planet would.” I’m very tempted to give you a patronising pat on the paw, but I’ll refrain out of my very great respect for you. 🙂
What I want you to know, Limerent Emeritus, is that despite any changes to LwL you are a beloved figure. You mustn’t doubt your worth. I’m sure you will always have a place at the table at LwL, as long as you remain in Dr and Mrs Bellamy’s good graces. And I see no reason why you wouldn’t remain in the Bellamys’ good graces, since you are such a lovely man. You’re a lovely man, that is, when you’re not pretending to be a curmudgeon, which is most of the time. Thankfully, INFJs can usually see through people’s facades. 😜
Do you think a woman as charming as Bewitched would talk to you if you truly were a curmudgeon? Do you think an ageless beauty such as Marcia would occasionally throw you the odd bone of sympathy if you weren’t endearing in your own deeply peculiar way? 😁
I can’t believe other posters sometimes don’t respect you and your views. I can’t believe other posters sometimes tell you to quieten down. I mean, how rude! How unenlightened! How unladylike and how ungentlemanly! But that’s the younger generations for you. No manners whatsoever. They are like little lost wabbits yet to find their way home… 🙂
In my eyes, you are an icon. And when I say you are an icon, I mean you are an icon just like legendary Australian pop singer Kylie. You may say: “No, Sammy. I’m not an icon. I can’t sing.” Don’t worry. Neither can Kylie. (Whoops! Did I just say that? My bad! I AM wicked. But Kylie was dubbed the “singing budgie” by peers early in her musical career. Since then, she’s taken over the world). 🤣🤣
Pssst, I’ve got a present for you. It’s your Lifetime Achievement Award. Someone else was trying to souvenir it at the Limmies. I came across it when my team of bodyguards and I were conducting random security checks in the cloakroom. (You know how people like to struggle items such as illegal nibblies into events like the Limmies). I was going to keep the Lifetime Achievement Award for myself, but then to my chagrin I discovered it wasn’t made out of chocolate. I thought these Lifetime Achievement Awards were like Easter bunnies or something under the gold foil. Apparently not. 🤣
I suggest you take your LAA home, and display on the bookshelf above the lavatory. That’s probably the only place in the house you can display it without offending your wife. You can hide it behind some cobwebs and a stack of old Reader’s Digest magazines. Then, whenever you want to spend some quality time in the smallest room in the house, you can admire your treasure. A bit like Gollum. 😉
You see, my dear man, I may not appear to be paying attention most of the time, but I DO listen to people. I’m always listening to people.
One doesn’t top English in one’s final year of high school without listening in class. One doesn’t top Geography two years running, and earn a high distinction in a nationwide Maths competition without being somewhat cognizant of one’s surroundings. 😉
If I have a bored expression on my face, it means I’m listening. If my eyes are shut and I appear to be sleeping, that means I’m listening extra hard. When my eyes are shut, my ears are open. That’s simply how neurodivergent brains sometimes work. 😁
Take care, my extroverted friend. You are valued. 🙂
Excellent speech Sammy!! 🤣🤣
(As I rise to my feet for the standing ovation..
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻)
⚡️ 💮 (Graceful) & 🅰️🅱️ (Absolutely Brilliant) ‼️
Sammy,
Thank you for the tribute!
You just earned the emcee spot in the inaugural “LwL Roasts Limerent Emeritus” event to be held after the Limmy Award Ceremony. As guest of honor, I expect DrL to pick up the tab for my expenses. I’m partial to Mariotts and I expect at least a Business Class ticket. The rest of you are on your own.
I like the idea of Chocolate Limmys! We can cut a 3-way deal to sell them in the lobby! I think 50% for DrL and 25% for each of us is reasonable.
As for being a curmudgeon, Ed Asner based much of his career off the role. But, as Kurt Vonnegut said, “We are what we pretend to be so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.” I should be careful.
Sammy,
“Do you think an ageless beauty such as Marcia would occasionally throw you the odd bone of sympathy if you weren’t endearing in your own deeply peculiar way? ”
I’m not ageLESS. I’m ageD.
I appreciate you not tossing me aside for a younger model. 😀
Ah… it’s the high-minded, moralistic thought 👮♂️ who crusaded for chocolate and a pair of young arms that only existed once upon a time in Galaxy, when they were caught in a painful tail of limerence #4.5 far, far away….
“I appreciate you not tossing me aside for a younger model. 😀”
Yeah cuz that’s my job..
🤣🤣
Love you M.. 😂💖
MJ
I imagine Marcia having the ageless beauty of Dame Diana Rigg or Lauren Becall had all the way up to their resting place. She just likes to downplay it to throw us youngins off. 🙂
Adam,
Why are you (and some others) so “obsessive” about ladies’ physical age or appearance? What does that have to do with their spirit and heart? Is age of soul equivalent to chronic age or one’s appearance? Do you speak to a human soul here or a shapeless face?
If you hear a young, creative and inspirational voice, then that speaker/poster is young (otherwise old or dying), If you yourself speak like a teenage, then you’re still a teenage in spirit and would be treated like one!
Some people seem not understand that aging starts in one’s mind and spirit, not body…. my Granny always talked and behaved like a cheery, feisty girl — nagging you about every little thing, and yesterday to her truly didn’t exist as soon as it was over. So when she walked with my older uncle in his forties, most people thought she was his wife, instead of his mother. She lived to 104 and left peacefully.
The culture here seems to be ridiculously obsessed with youth; European might be better, as I hear.
Snow,
WRT your response to Adam: “Why are you (and some others) so “obsessive” about ladies’ physical age or appearance? What does that have to do with their spirit and heart?”
I was never a big Lauren Bacall fan. LO #2 & I saw her perform “Woman of the Year” at The 5th Avenue Theatre in Seattle in 1983. The show was good but I was never a big fan of hers.
Diana Rigg is another story. Any male who achieved puberty and watched watched “The Avengers” British TV show in the 60s and saw her in her leather cat suit, probably still remembers her. Diana Rigg as Mrs. Peel is a cultural icon.
LE,
I understand your point, but I didn’t grow up in a celebrity idol culture, so couldn’t care less what stars’ appearance or lifestyle. What is more important is that how we small ordinary people were treAted in our immediate environment. Were they kind or truly caring?
Let’s say Diana Rigg and all those stars mentioned in all your previous posts were still alive,’would they speak to you here and care about your LE pains? I have a couple of male stars idolized, but I don’t compare with any of you here. You speak to me, that means you care, that MATTERS!
So I even get annoyed when seeing Dame Bewtiched or Marcia are compared or imagined as this or that celebratory, they are unique Self! Moreover, they are here to speak with you, to comfort you , and humor you, that should count the whole world to you than those impersonal celebrities, dead or alive.
Thank god, you can’t compare me to anyone else (except my forearms! )
I think in this culture, superficiality is given more attention than substantial human care and love, which is just unwise and breeds foolish sufferings.
Sorry for the typo, I’m in a shaky subway.
Snow
I meant it as a compliment to Marcia. She often mentions her age in a negative way. As if because she is an older woman she won’t be noticed.
As far as my examples both women were quite influential to my “growing up” as L.E. mentioned. While they were both before my time, I would watch The Avengers on cable at my grandmother’s house in the 80’s & 90’s when I was a teen. L.E. is right that despite being one of three ladies opposite John Steed (Patrick Macnee) Diana Rigg was the most iconic in the TV show.
Same with Lauren Becall. Key Largo is one of my favorite movies of all time. Humphrey Bogart and Patrick Macnee were both father figure characters to me growing up. Not that my father wasn’t either, just happen to be to actors that portrayed roles that I looked up to.
And not just in physical appearance, Diana Rigg and Lauren Bacall also had grace, demure and fierce independence up until their passing. They weren’t just physically amazing women, they were the kind of role models that young women could look up to. They are so little of that for young ladies and men in this day and age. That’s why you have despots like Andrew Tate poising young men’s minds. There is too many Andrew Tate’s and not enough Jordan Peterson’s. Thankfully my parents were there for me. But being a 47 year old gamer I talk to a lot of young men and women and unfortunately a lot of my generation isn’t pulling their weight as parents.
I am saying that Marcia is a great woman no matter what her age, and good role model for the younger ladies that might enter into LwL lost and confused. I praise many of you ladies here. You, Snow, Marcia, Miss Lovisa, Limerent Nurse, Mila, Bewitched, Limmy (when she was posting) and many others who this old man is forgetting. I am very happy that you all are here as it is difficult for me to relate to a woman’s limrence than it is for male newcomers.
Adam 🥃 ,
Your points are well taken, but you’re still talking about celebrity modeling this or that. While I grew up, we were taught to follow principles and philosophies, or some ancient sages with fables, not any specific, ordinary human beings.
I think all the ladies (and gents) you mentioned in LwL are unique each in their own ways. I don’t compare them to anyone else in my reality or on screens. That’s my way to appreciate uniqueness in each of you.
I would not want any complements that compares me to any celebrity, I’m a celebrity in my own life — the One and Only 🐦🔥, period! And still evolving…
🍻
Adam,
“And not just in physical appearance, Diana Rigg and Lauren Bacall also had grace, demure and fierce independence up until their passing. “
How do you know if each LwL lady has her own grace , that might be even more graceful than Diana Rigg or Lauren Bacall (btw, my COO given name by Father means Graceful)? Why do we need Diana Rigg’s or Laren Bacall’s grace on screen? If we don’t have, then we should feel like a failure, lack of confidence for the rest of our life?
You see, such a comparison even goes against Individuality/individualism that is so highly praised in the West.
I’m sure that all your admired ladies here in LwL have their own unique grace, although they may not have realized it.
Adam,
Should Diana Rigg and Lauren Bacall’s grace, demure and fierce independence be adopted for younger women from all walks, all cultures?
Where do we Easterners fit in this multi-cultural environment? Just treated as some exotic beings being looked at but be mentally distanced? (Thank god, you can’t see my face but only my words in your tongue.)
At schools here, we ask students to keep their original given names (instead of getting an English one), no matter how difficult it is to pronounce them!
Sorry, I’m quite nervous about this trip, so babbling here none-stop.
Snow
I will attempt to address your points in your two posts.
“Your points are well taken, but you’re still talking about celebrity modeling this or that.”
That is something very much Western culture. I don’t think that it either good or bad. Celebrities aren’t inherently evil nor are the inherently good. People are people. Does the Western world have a number of current evil celebrities that within the last even 5 years have shamed us as a country? Yes.
I understand that our cultures are very different. Somethings that are just ingrained in us Westerners seems so foreign to the rest of the Eastern world.
There is a youtube channel that I like to watch where those from the Eastern world react to Western media. The owner of the channel is the only one that speaks English and his native tongue. As the other reactors, say listen to a song, he will then stop and speak the lyrics to them in their language. And the interesting part of some of those videos is how their worldview is so different that the lyrics of a song that may seem so straight forward to an American they have a completely different viewpoint on.
“I’m sure that all your admired ladies here in LwL have their own unique grace, although they may not have realized it.”
My intention was certainly not to upset anyone here. Everybody has their own individualism that makes them unique. That I struggle with what to say in response to your posts proves it. It is difficult to try to explain the differences. But I will try with this example because I thankfully did the right thing.
I got home from the grocery store some years back and I told my wife that a woman’s hijab was very beautiful looking. It was a very pretty purple. I asked my wife (who has online acquaintances in the East) “can a man compliment a woman about her hijab or just appearance in general?” My wife said it would probably not be a good idea, even if you just wanted give her an honest compliment. I said, okay well I did the right then. I have never been outside of the US. And may never. Not for the lack of not wanting to but for other reasons. The last thing I want to do is either offend someone, through my ignorance, in their own country or here in the US.
“If we don’t have, then we should feel like a failure, lack of confidence for the rest of our life?”
If you want my honest opinion I think all woman have a grace that men do not. It’s the wonderful thing between men and women; our differences. And I was not at all implying that no woman here (or anywhere) lacks anything, much less see them as a failure. Our differences are what make life enjoyable. And I always enjoy our conversations Snow so never hesitate to “call me out” when I deserve it. 🙂 Your perspective is one of the reasons that I am still here. Conversations like this make stop and think before I hit “post comment” and that’s how I learn about the rest of the world.
Despite that I read my posts here 3-4 times before posting it (mostly to proofread) I’ll never have the eloquence of L.E.’s writing or Sammy’s intensity to name just a few. I was sheltered for almost half my life from the outside world. So I am just now learning. I DID NOT mean to offend you Snow, and hope that I never do in the future as I stumble along here.
“Sorry, I’m quite nervous about this trip, so babbling here none-stop.”
It’s understandable. A long distance trip like you’re about to make would cause anybody a bit of anxiety or discomfort. But good on you for putting yourself out there in a new “world” so to speak. Maybe one day I will. Hopefully before this old body gets too tired. Be safe and careful on your journey so you can come back here and tells us all about it if you desire.
I hope I was able to address your points with clarity and not just fumble it worse.
Adam,
I just finished one class and have another to go soon, so here is a quick response.
You did NOT offend me a bit, I was just passionately arguing some points between two cultures and among individuals, some of which might triggered the buried “unfair” treatments I received since I migrated…. Moreover, since I’m a minority voice (might be only active one) here, I want to bring my individual views (only represent me) of the two cultures, based on what I hear here…
As an ESL, I don’t have LE’s or Sammy’s curvy, eloquence in language, you’ll have to forgive the 🔥 tone in my passages. But if I have time and energy, I’d challenge some established views in history and the modern era, which I feel/believe that contribute to some common sufferings — insecurity, chasing after novelty, youth, fame, popularity, material gratifications, and that ASTRONOMICAL L🅾️, even we clearly know it was harmful to our wellbeing.
And based on my limited views, a lot of people (both in the West and East) turn outwards for their inner fulfillment, instead of cultivating within, while keeping external communication and human connections.
This is my 3rd Italian trip, 8th or 9th European tour, not a big deal; but it’s fairly short during a semester with finals waiting for me right after coming back, (I have work during the trip) which makes me nervous, not totally relaxed like other times.
Go glad that you write back and keep the challenging and exploring conversation going. I learn so much from arguments and debates. Thank you.
I’ll get back to you later. (Remember, I am notorious in my attempts to speak the last word….)
Adam
“meant it as a compliment to Marcia. She often mentions her age in a negative way. As if because she is an older woman she won’t be noticed.”
You literally posted a while back that I would have the title of the older one at the Limmies. Almost every middle aged guy on here (men MY age; you aren’t that much younger than I am) has a much younger LO.
The invisibility of women over 50 is a real thing. You can Google it. It happens to men, too. Just later.
🥃:
Finally got a moment to properly chat with you. Sorry if it ends up sounding fiery again — I’m a 🐦🔥, what do you expect⁉️ 😊
“I imagine Marcia having the ageless beauty of Dame Diana Rigg or Lauren Becall had all the way up to their resting place. She just likes to downplay it to throw us youngins off.”
If you really want to compliment Marcie, why couldn’t you cut off anything after “of….”? Can you somehow say she’s the ageless beauty of her own right, One and Only in some aspects(wits, brevity etc)? Why it has to be compared to Diana Rigg or anyone else?
I would feel offended if you compare me to anyone else, instead of myself, do you understand that many people desire to be truly appreciate who they are, not in some resemblance of celebrity or whatever they symbolize. When you speak here and get understanding responses, how do you feel? Do you at that moment think of some male role model, like Humphrey Bogart (I like him tremendously), more than Cary Grant (too buttery).
“I meant it as a compliment to Marcia. She often mentions her age in a negative way. As if because she is an older woman she won’t be noticed. “
I know you meant it as a compliment (you always had a courtesy and good intentions), but to my ear some words sounded like an empty, inauthentic flattery — none of us knows how she really looks like, except her words and spirit. If she mentions her age in a negative way, you mention it in a positive way; if she thinks she’s older, you talk to her as if she’s younger. “One is a lady when she’s treated as a lady, even if she’s just a flower girl.” (“My fair Lady”).
“They weren’t just physically amazing women, they were the kind of role models that young women could look up to.”
Please enlighten me why today’s young generation needs to look up Diana Rigg generation, in what major character-shaping ways? (I happened to watch the entire “Bleak House”, so remember well her sad eyes after her lover/beloved died of poverty). “Physically amazing”? What does that mean exactly?
“I am saying that Marcia is a great woman no matter what her age, and good role model for the younger ladies that might enter into LwL lost and confused.”
Then say it the first time when you responded to MJ, who truly appreciated Marcia’s humor and joked back, without referrering anyone else as a comparison, as if Marcia couldn’t stand tall on her own….
“Your points are well taken, but you’re still talking about celebrity modeling this or that.”
That is something very much Western culture. “
I think it’s more of American culture. All my favorite French and British actors/actresses lead a private life on their own, unlike those Hollywood “giant” stars with body guards in a huge mansion. They treat their acting job just like an ordinary job we have. Sometimes, people recognize them in the street, sometimes not.
“I don’t think that it either good or bad. “
What’s good about following stardom or imitating celebrity’s lifestyle? Don’t we have our individual life to lead and build? It’s all about vanity, fame, money, popularity, etc. as if they could add something substantial to our body, mind, and soul! LO5 once complained that he had over 4000 followers on Twister, but he knew less than 3 in person with a very loose connection.
In my eyes: it’s just bad, bad, bad! I love well-crafted, brain-driving movies and would rewatch my favorite actors, but I don’t follow their whereabouts and most of time I had/have no idea who they are in reality — married, have kids, divorced, love affairs, blah, blah, blah.
“Celebrities aren’t inherently evil nor are the inherently good. “
Did I ever moralize celebrities? I’m simply not interested in them, although I may watch their movies.
“People are people.” Exactly! Then why they should role-model younger generations? In what aspects, they could exemplify to younger generations? By whose standards that they possess such virtues? Don’t they have flaws, even fatal flaws that kill themselves?
“Does the Western world have a number of current evil celebrities that within the last even 5 years have shamed us as a country? Yes.”
I’m not aware of it at all, never thought any of them could “have shamed us” as a country? Who are they that can represent “us as a whole country”? Unless you’re talking about Trump!
“I understand that our cultures are very different. Somethings that are just ingrained in us Westerners seem so foreign to the rest of the Eastern world.”
You’re raising my true curiosity now; can you give me some specific examples of “somethings that are just ingrained in us Westerners seem so foreign” from your perspective?
“And the interesting part of some of those videos is how their worldview is so different that the lyrics of a song that may seem so straight forward to an American they have a completely different viewpoint on.”
I’m not sure which Eastern nation you’re talking about; are we Eastern cultures are similar or different? — Let’s say Far East nations?
“My intention was certainly not to upset anyone here. Everybody has their own individualism that makes them unique. “
Then aim to clearly compliment those specific Individuals with their words, actions, or characters shinning through LwL, instead of comparing them to any dead or alive celebrities.
“My wife said it would probably not be a good idea, even if you just wanted give her an honest compliment.”
Mama understands other cultures, the big C — superficial stuff. Small c is manifested in language and habitual behaviors and needs more attention and understanding between cultures.
“Your perspective is one of the reasons that I am still here. Conversations like this make stop and think before I hit “post comment” and that’s how I learn about the rest of the world.”
Thank you for your compliment here. Conversing in interesting, profound topics is one of my top hobbies, always charging and recharging me, at least to keep my mild depression at bay.
“I DID NOT mean to offend you Snow, and hope that I never do in the future….”
Again you did not OFFEND me, and I don’t think you could ever be able… 😊
“Maybe one day I will. Hopefully before this old body gets too tired. “
You see, you’re putting yourself down again here. In my living area, the new middle age is 53 even fifteen years ago based on a magazine, you’re still a youngster; why keep saying “old body”, old this or old that? Your spirit would get old ahead of your body (we have all saw your photo), which will indeed age you faster.
“Be safe and careful on your journey so you can come back here and tells us all about it if you desire.”
Thank you for your good wishes! “Come back here to tell…”. Do you think I’d leave you alone during my physical travel? If no shriek of the Immortal Snowphoenix, how would you know 🐦🔥 is still alive, not being kidnapped by some dark Romeo eyes? 😊
🍻
Once upon a time, 🐦🔥’s full human name was gifted here and then lost in the Solar rings, then well hidden during the witch hunt of the thought 👮♂️, and still is…. 👁️
Both Google and AI could not locate it and suggest it’s a screen name or a pen name (it’s in a page of “National Congress of Poetry”, which edition❓ 🧐 her 280 year old memory is failing here *cough…… cough…….cough……*) It may soon become Dorothy Parker’s neighbor…
It may stare at you, scream at you, or flirt with you… but you would not know — incidentally One and Only on the entire Earth 🌏 (printed on a passport!)
😊
Lost it, she has to use emojis for her screen name.… isn’t it logical? 🤪
🧊 🌱 ,
🧊 🔥ed 🦜 💠 L🅰️m🅾️🅾️r ❔
👁️🗨️ 🕺🏿 ⏳ 🌽 🤝 🍹🍽️ 🫂 🍨 💠 🏰 ❓
🅿️ 🗣️ 🦜 ❗️
🙏
🇫🇷 💋 🍨 💋 ,
💠 🏰 🈁 + 🌞❓
㊗️ 〰️ 🚂 ✌️ ☎️ 🎩 🌽 & 🤝 🥰 ❗️
👁️ 🛫 💠 🌞 🌞 🌞 🌞 ✌️🇮🇹…. 🤩
🫂 👖 🍫 👖
Is this where your birthmark is?
https://imgur.com/a/PsH88I7 🙆🏻♀️
🦾 🦾
Hi Snow,
Mine is a little bit more in the direction of the wrist and maybe half the size. It faded a lot over the years though, almost invisible now.
Still very curious that we have it in almost the same spot!
🔥 🍊 🍷 ,
The same here: the size shrank, the color faded, and unable to 🫣 facial hair…
Now you’ve seen it, 📴 🎞️ .
🫂
This idiot site: I can’t delete my own “property”! 😠
Adam 🥃 : do you know how to unload your uploads?
I deleted the entire profile, but the image stays, belonging to the website now! Poor 🥃 !
It’s good always to test new water… 💧
Correction: 🖼️ is gone once a profile is totally deleted. But it takes some time for the website to act on your request. 😰
😌 (relaxed now)
🦜,
🙏🙏 for your many attempts at help. I take the responsibilty, but no, I did not succeed there (🏰 is long 🚅 away from 🌽 – I tried to emote that once).
May you and others who have vacations coming up have a fantastic time and enjoy some well earned relaxation. I still have to wait a while for mine.
🧊 🍹,
Oh….. I’m 💔 , seriously! I wish so much that such a chance would be not missed for 👐friends like you✌️, nothing in life is given for granted….
If you were free of a SO, like me, I think you could have shortened the distance from 🌽 to 🏰 , a day then becomes 36 hours….You could zoom anywhere as 🦅, even with a busy job!
Thank you for your good wishes. I’m getting 😬 for the trip, always feel unreasonable 😟 before each foreign trip (not interested in domestic ones at all, since I can’t drive), as if something unexpected and terrible would happen….
I’ve already purchased some museum tickets online, so to avoid long lines for entrance. For touristy Venice, not sure I’ll just wander around on foot to feel 💦 city 💦 (with its ♾️ ㊙️㊙️) or hop on these touring groups (hate them); My 🇫🇷 gf still has not decided whether to join me; I might wander around like a cloud… ⤴️ 🌝🌕,👜 💖🫥.
⏳+☝️🌑 👉 🍃 🚤 , 👁️ 🈶 🌑🌛🌜📴 4️⃣ ☀️ 🔥 ⛱️, 💯 🆓❗️ 👁️ 🤷🏻♀️ ❓🈺 , (🈶 🫰🏼👩🏫, ✌️🉐👝🪙).
👁️ ㊗️🧊 🔁🍨 🈶 🆒 🦜 🧮 ✌️ 📡…
🦜,
“a day then becomes 36 hours”
Honestly, if I just had one wish that a genie could grant me, that’s what it would be! My day never has enough hours in it. I’m sure most people feel similar. I’ve feel like I’ve broken myself a bit with the strength it took to finally wrench myself out and get used to the aftermath – each 24 hours feels like 12 at the minute, so 36 would be just fantastic! And yes, an SO does reduce the time a person has purely for themselves. I don’t want to blame anything on that, but you are 💯 right in the fact (plus the presence of nearby family with care needs and issues, as I know you also experience).
“not sure I’ll just wander around on foot to feel 💦 city 💦 … or hop on these touring groups (hate them)”
There is lots to be gained there from just wandering … seeing the backstreets etc. It isn’t a huge place, so you can feel lost and yet ‘find yourself’ 5 minutes later somewhere you know. You can join touring groups for the big attractions in if you need to, but no need to be in them all the time. You will see a lot of COO folk there! I think you may have a full moon while you’re out there which means a good likelihood of water under your feet!
“My 🇫🇷 gf still has not decided whether to join me”
Blimey – that’s what I call a late decision.
Nerves are natural undertaking a big adventure but I feel confident you will have a great time chasing Casanova’s footsteps etc.
I am working on understanding and answering your emoji question above.
Dear Snow,
I have been reading your words and your symbols (can’t always follow but I do get the ‘tone’ of them). I just wanted to wish you a happy trip (I know you will disagree on the word ‘happy’ due to stoic approach :)).
I totally relate to the tumult before traveling – the days before a trip always induce great anxiety for me too! I am sure that the lack of decision from your travel-mate girlfriend has not helped (really, the impertinence!). But it could also be a blessing in disguise – if you go alone, you may have more time for your own thoughts, which is sometimes a blessing and sometimes a curse, although I myself generally love to travel alone.
The compensation for all of this anxiety and preparation, and financial cost, is about to unfold. Your independent spirit is perfect for exploring and your mind is keenly attuned to seeking beauty – the place you are going is very beautiful, isn’t it? Travel can be so fruitful for the imagination, which is something you always say is most important to you. I hope that you are reading prose or poetry that builds anticipation, for your reward is just around the corner.
Of course, if it’s annoying because of over-crowding etc, feel free to rant, we wont mind :D)
Dear 🅱️ 🧙,
“I have been reading your words and your symbols (can’t always follow but I do get the ‘tone’ of them).”
Don’t worry about those “bloody” emojis 😂 , nothing too serious in them. It’s an effective way to distract mind, since I have to consider carefully how to let the listeners to understand what I meant… 😊. Nowadays, I even undo typing and make them into emojis, saving space and speak to myself more graphically — they carry more emotional tones than merely words.
“I just wanted to wish you a happy trip (I know you will disagree on the word ‘happy’ due to stoic approach :))”
Thank you for your sincere wishes, of course, I wish a “happy” and fulfilling foreign trip. However, the stage of true “happy” does not come from places, but my state of mind before and while there. I had trip when I felt miserable although visiting beautiful places, because my mind was distracted and stressed by troubling relationship of the time.
From a Stoic approach and my upbringing, I can’t stay in a “happy” state too long, constantly worrying or preparing “unhappy” would strike at any time — every coin has two sides. But I’ve learned to enjoy transient “happiness” to the full in recent years when it arrives, knowing it would fade soon or later and nothing could stop it— the nature of our mind. That’s why I always recommend others to stay with and stare at their feelings, until what is unwanted to leave on its own.
“I totally relate to the tumult before traveling – the days before a trip always induce great anxiety for me too!”
Yeah, the tumult is always with me, particularly to unknown places; I lose sleep beforehand, and could go on from 24-28 hours without shutting down my eyes during the trip — I’m too excitable. As it is said, anticipated excitement for new experiences is always much higher than when then actually happen.
That’s Proust’s theory (forget the original words) — the highest exaltation lies in prior imagination and anticipation, particularly with in relationship with dating/courting. My breakthrough of last week almost solely came from my phantom with little realistic “support”; and I let IT carry my tears out, which mysteriously did work that I could not anticipate (this LE tail was long and tough to cut off)… Of course, I am profoundly grateful for a key inspiration that poked 🫥 … and then the last battle was won within two hours! The effect is still here.
“I am sure that the lack of decision from your travel-mate girlfriend has not helped (really, the impertinence!).
She’s heart-broken with the sudden discovery of her Ex’s betrayal, and is forced to deal with a divorce procedure and financial independence (part time work with her ex). So I let her make the decision even at the last minute (I have a double room booked anyway). I originally planned the trip alone (wishing to distract my sadness and depression of the forced NC), but if she could join me, I’d be very happy. Having a “mental matching” travel companion makes a huge difference. Otherwise, I prefer alone to be with my thoughts.
“But it could also be a blessing in disguise – if you go alone, you may have more time for your own thoughts, which is sometimes a blessing and sometimes a curse, although I myself generally love to travel alone.”
I’m with my thoughts 36 hours a day already 😊 ! While traveling, I do wish exploring and sharing new experiences with a good companion. I do not “love” travel alone, but did it many times; “bad” companions were awful, due to different tastes and preferences. Never groups, can’t stand its pre-arranged activities. I need spontaneity and even getting lost here or there — occurred in every trip!
“Travel can be so fruitful for the imagination, which is something you always say is most important to you. “
Yes, indeed! Imagination/my 🫥 has been vital in my life (more than I realize) ; but its dark side could also lead me to paranoid (my cptsd with its abandonment fear); that’s where I practice Stoicism most — truly imagine the worst and treat it as if it is already here. Then force myself to find psychological “solutions” and repeat them in head.
On the bright side of the coin, I let myself to be carried away by “reverie” for the time being (also for scribbling a line or two purple prose), while aware its babbling nature. I’m not religious, but I find sometimes faith works — I believe more in my 🫥 nowadays.
“I hope that you are reading prose or poetry that builds anticipation, for your reward is just around the corner.”
There are literally zillions of prose/poetry out there; I scribe one site and get 3 poems delivered every morning. Then, I go from there to ignore or expand if some poets’ contents resonate with my sentiments or even inspire me to come up with my own. That’s where a lot of synchronicity takes place — they happened to speak what I was thinking about similar sentiments. Nowadays, I prefer poetry more to fictions, which takes too much of time; the former arose my feelings fast. I want more F than T.
“Of course, if it’s annoying because of over-crowding etc, feel free to rant, we wont mind :D)”
Always thank you for a 🧙’s open arms; without your broom, I probably could not have survived in LwL (I got archetype rival 🤦♀️ in a ghost land 🙄), let alone to beat up my LE (initially I did not want to get rid of it, for mood regulation and imagination). Now, I’m thinking, what on earth my stupid mind was foolishly wishing 🔨!
Believe me, I’ll end up rambling or even screaming here during my trip — unrecorded journeys probably never take place! You guys are my guarding angels! 👼
🧊 🍹 ,
For many, a day only has 12 hours; and I have no envy of those so called “white collar slaves”. I would not know where to find time to spend those “fortune”! (My lawyer friend complained that she had no time to shop at all). That’s why I prefer working part-time, having more of my own time and “day-dreaming”; I have no work before 1pm in any given days.
“There is lots to be gained there from just wandering … seeing the backstreets etc. It isn’t a huge place, so you can feel lost and yet ‘find yourself’ 5 minutes later somewhere you know. “
That’s very comforting to know. I so enjoy walking with my own legs, and getting lost with curiosity. A big places tire me out with its “infinite” scale.
“You will see a lot of COO folk there! “
That’s always a true nightmare 😱 in my traveling! Haven’t you figured out that 🐦🔥 has been living in a NO-man’s land only belonging to a gigantic Nest? I only deal with the ancient culture of COO, hate the modern one.
Most COO folks move around in a group, loud with little reservation, chatty, flattery, insolent at times with their bags from brand-name stores, and they take selfies everywhere as if no oneself exists… They often threw me this strange look as if I were an alien (because I was always alone and observant); they interrupted or ruined my thoughts and sentiments ALL the TIME! I ran in purple whenever I spotted them!…. Well, I can 📣 say anything about COO, but you can’t, right! 🤭
“I think you may have a full moon while you’re out there which means a good likelihood of water under your feet!”
That’s something I’d always look into! Yes, the full Moon is on 4/12, 🌞🌞🌞 from 🆔 🅱️-🌞🥳! It’s going to 🌧️ ☹️, I’ll bring out the saved full-Moon someone sent to me here, once upon a time…
“Nerves are natural undertaking a big adventure but I feel confident you will have a great time chasing Casanova’s footsteps etc.”
Until I get there, my nerves would dance around. Then when I’m there, I’d just sleep 3 hours a day — that’s always what happened with me while traveling in new places. If I read Casanova’s autobiography again, I’d ending up walk around like him — so charmingly gazing into eyes of those dark men — supposed to be the most handsome in Europe, based on one COO classmate’s review (French women for the counterpart).
I have no intention anymore to get a local date at an hourly rate. Please remind me not pausing my curious eyes on them more than 5 seconds, their eyes are helplessly wandering and hopeful… so easily to be flattered…
“I am working on understanding and answering your emoji question above.”
Don’t worry about them too much, they’re just random, casual chats…
I think our beloved 🍨 is on her way…. 🥰
👋🏻🧊&🦜
🍨🛬🏰☀️☀️🚫🌧️
👀🕵🏻♀️🚫🌽🎩🤔🤔
🧊, I haven’t been keeping up with the comments here, but saw your comment above. Thanks for the vacation wishes!
🍅, enjoy 🍝🇮🇹
👁️ 🤞, 🍨! 😊 🍮 💠 🏰 ❗️
🧊,
👁️ 🧐🧰 🦜 🧮✌️🤲 🤳🍨❔
Hi Mila,
I wish you the best the next few days. Maybe it is to be your anticipated business trip?
You previously said to me:
“don’t be too afraid of him leaving meaning the loss of him, or that you need to keep hold on him as not to lose him etc
…………When someone leaves, he doesn’t die, there’s always the possibility of reaching out and having a bit of contact or even meet, if both are inclined. No need to get into a last-chance-frenzy.”
I tried to follow your advice, but somewhat failed. Limerence escalated because he was leaving the organisation soon but with no precise timeline, and he confided in me on the backstory. And can you believe it, he also indicated he may visit my location this year.
A perfect mix of hope and uncertainty ?!!
My thoughts are a bit chaotic, so I will leave it there for now at least. ( I deleted a bunch of other nonsensical sentences )
have a great week , I am sure you will get through it fine ! You got this ….
My best wishes
I don’t know where to put this. I can’t find my own thread.
I told my workplace LO that unneeded space last week: she wasn’t letting go. She didn’t take it well.
I’m in agony. I know I’ve done the right thing, but I miss her so much. The “comfort” that I’ve done the best thing for me and my SO is scant. LO is bad for me, the whole thing was in her terms. And yet.
I’m racked with guilt, my life seems empty without her. I know the score, I’ve been here before. But this one is killing me.
At this moment it feels impossible to imagine how I’ll get past this.
JM
Only you can decide how much or how little you want her in your life. I get completely how the work environment makes that very difficult, but you’ve told her you need this space. If you cannot handle being only platonic work friends, then yes you do need to separate and go your own way.
The only way getting through hell is to keep going through it. Believe me it’s a b%@!h, I get it and I’ve been there. I’ve cried rivers of tears over my LO and still tear up over her now and then. But it gets easier with time. Just focus on other things that make you happy now. There has to be something. Your SO may even thank you for it in the long run..
JM,
I am still struggling a lot myself with the emptiness and tiredness of exiting the LE. So I don’t have much advice other than to suggest at times really sitting with and acknowledging all the feelings, and at other times distracting yourself by whatever means possible. Perhaps kind of ‘allowing’ it X amount of time per day/week to just ‘be’, might mean you can distract yourself and function better at other times.
At all stages of my LE, whatever the issue of the time was, it honestly got better with the passing of days, weeks, months. This can be by degrees that you barely even notice at the time. One day I just thought “LO wasn’t the first thing on my mind today, and hasn’t been on some other recent days too”. But I didn’t notice the day it first happened or have some kind of countdown to it.
As for the ‘post’ phase – in my case the tiredness, ‘limerence hangover’ and lethargy it brings – I am still really battling with passing through that. I have simple targets to myself at the moment like time spent exercising each day, being content with just doing OK at work rather than striving to excel, and a few rewards for achieving those bits, like foods I enjoy. I’m still very fatigued and low on energy but feel all that must he helping on some level, even if just as an investment for later.
I am happy to check in at the coffeehouse sometimes and try to motivate each other to pass through that stage if you want. I have reduced LwL use a bit, as that was still making me think about limerence a lot. I am not planning on leaving anytime soon – but it does mean my replies have got more delayed/sporadic now.
Hope the coming days bring at least some relief for you.
Hi all,
Sorry that you’re suffering, JustMe. As you see, MJ and LaR get it and I totally get it too. Its impossible to get around feeling bad, as they say, you just have to go through it. I used to think about it as withdrawal symptoms – I was coming down from the addiction I had, the dopamine supply had been cut off (even though it had been rocky between you and your LO, there was plenty of drama which also supplies dopamine, I guess). Once that was all gone, I / you just have to get through the withdrawal.
LaR is right, at some point, you’re going to notice that LO wasn’t the first thing or even the only thing on your mind for a while. When that moment happens, notice it and admire it 🙂
Those moments simply become more frequent, eventually, as your brain adjusts. Its just person addiction, that’s all. Sounds simple! But I know from my own case that there are often relapses, even when recovery has begun. MJ has been hit particularly hard and has suffered a very long time, longer than others on here, I would say (solidarity with you, MJ). Adam too.
What I really came here to to say was that one practical thing that helped me was to find an activity, something to pour energy and thought into. It doesn’t have to be much, what I did was some daily puzzles, short ones, on my phone. I practised getting better at them and they both distracted my mind and provided a series of small dopamine hits. Lovisa used Candy Crush in a similar way.
The other thing I think might help is to find a helpful narrative to repeat to yourself like a mantra. This should not include any room for guilt. For instance, one of the isues in my LO was the very strong reciprocation I detected from my LO. My narrative/mantra that helped me was: “I have imagined it, he never was, or is no longer interested, and even if he was, it doesn’t matter because neither of us is going to act on it. So just drop it Bewitched”.
When you are feeling a bit better, you’ll want to enact DrL’s famous ‘purposeful living’ to actually thrive in your recovery mindset. For me what that means is that I am spreading myself around and more available to people in my life, also small projects in the home and garden, but that’s just me. Other people are more ambitious.
Taking control of your life is very powerful, try to focus on those benefits and repeat them to yourself?
“MJ has been hit particularly hard and has suffered a very long time, longer than others on here, I would say (solidarity with you, MJ). Adam too.”
Thanks for the shout-out @Bewitched..
💖 and Solidarity to you 🤜🏻🤛🏻
Hi Justme,
I feel very sorry and somehow responsible because I gave you the advice to talk to her (actually, I was thinking of a written message at that time).
„Guilt“ is something that I read several times in your posts. Why do you feel guilty towards her? I‘m sorry that she isn’t more understanding. Not very empathetic, is she? I have to admit, I got a not very favorable picture of her in my mind from her words and actions. She could feel guilt towards you too, but does she? No. Nor does she show a bit of empathy. Do you really want a friend like that?
I like Bewitched‘s suggestions. Also, try to gauge what you really want deep inside. What would make you feel better? Talking to her again? Completely cutting her off? I know everyone would advise not to talk to her again. I also think she probably won’t be more understanding.
Me, sometimes I need to run into the brick wall several times to get the message… but always consider carefully every possible consequence of every way beforehand (if you talk to her, mood might be even worse afterwards, she might pull her friends into it, you might feel even worse, or if you don’t talk to her, can you handle it to never have a relaxed work relationship to her again etc).
It would probably be best to really let go of that woman once and for all, but there are stages to being able to let go completely, you have to feel your way what the right thing to do is at your specific stage.
I hope you can feel better soon! 🙏🏻
Dear @Mila. Please, please don’t feel bad. You advised me to do absolutely the right thing. The situation had become unbearable. I was clinging on to a “friendship” that’s 90% steered by LO, what she wanted, and what she got out of it. I couldn’t carry on. Apart from anything, I was starting to become increasingly angry. I wasn’t yet at the point of showing her that. You are correct in everything you say. I see no understanding or empathy. There is no outcome that could make me feel better. The only two options were going back to what was getting to me anyway. There isn’t really a 2nd option because I have an SO and LO is not interested in that from me.
There is nothing to be gained from talking to her again, except a deepening of my current unhappiness. I have to ride this out.
Despite all of the above, and all of my executive brain contradicting this: I’m afraid that I miss her. Terribly. I know she was bad for me (I know a lot of it wasn’t intentional; we’re just a bad fit), but I miss her. But I can’t go back.
Thank you Mila. From the bottom of my heart x
Hi Justme,
thanks for your kind words.
I think you might be grieving already, and I think grieving is a painful but necessary part of limerence once we really understood that what our limerent heart was craving isn’t possible.
I also think it was the right thing to do to pull out once you got angry with her. It’s difficult to handle these bouts of anger and decide if it’s rightful anger or not, I speak from experience…
Hang in there, better times are coming for sure!❤️
JM
hang in there. The guilt is because your brain wants a way out of the scary stuff.
don’t reach out. do not be fooled by guilt/doubt. you’ll feel More in control soon with more perspective dawning.
same for me last week, guilt/doubt. We are on slightly different timelines. Ride it out. Give it a couple days more
Oh @csc. It’s so good to see you. You are right, I mustn’t. It will only be guilt and my longing for her that will make me do that. And that will end with me feeling more miserable. Thank you for your words of encouragement.
I hope that you are doing ok at your point x
JM
jmmo,
thank you. i no longer doubt i made the right decision. but, i am mourning the things that will not, cannot, be. will never be. it is very sad to feel those waves. still,remaining in the limerence was not an option, not a real option for my life.
hang in there. it will eventually change, as the different phases play out. you are doing the right thing for your future self.
csc
Hi @ Mia. For sure – I am certainly grieving. That stage seems to have come relatively quickly.
@Csc – I see what you mean about my scrabbling for a way through.
Love, thanks and thoughts to you both x
JM&MO
You did the right thing—You don’t want an affair, you don’t want to leave your SO, and you made things plain to your LO, so you’re not leaving her hanging/ghosting her. There’s a NIN song with a title I often think about in situations like these: “The only way out is through.” It will get better in time.
Thank you. Your words are much appreciated.
JM & 🤖,
Keep doing what you’re doing, you’ll get to the other side of the wall soon, especially CSC — outside of sight helps get xLO outside mind….
The grieving pain is inevitable, like getting fever during a bad cold. Just staying with and staring at it, it WILL go away, have a faith!
I’m very busy loaded with stuff/work to do before my flight tomorrow. Take care.
Thank you. I appreciate it. Have a good trip.
Should read “that I needed space”.
I had a much better day yesterday. I awoke determined that LO/LE was not going to make me feel as desperate as I had been the day before. I was much better able to rationalise everything.
So far, I’m ok this morning, however I am fighting the urge to reach out to her. What’s stopping me ? Easy. I know there’s no point. As @Mila said the other day, it won’t change anything: she won’t be more empathic, or try to understand my feelings. It would all be about her. Not entirely her fault – it’s the way she’s wired. But again, quoting others here – she won’t even try. Seems it’s me trying to understand both of our viewpoints. Again.
I also know that if I do reach out to her, I’ll have some serious explaining to do, not least @Mila and @csc! And i’m not chancing that! 😂
Hello Coffeehouse Friends,
As some of you are aware, I’ve recently given up hope on my former Lady Friend. Who decided I guess, she couldn’t be friends with someone like me. Due to some serious confessions I made to her about my past. This all came about because we started talking about past relationships and why they didn’t work out. Can’t say I agreed with her logic to some things she’s done so far in her life, but I’m not 30 years old either, so kudos to the age-gap.
I decided I needed to cut her off again and go strict LC because the awkwardness of trying to reach her was getting embarrassing. She simply wouldn’t have a thing to do with me. Although that has it’s share of challenges because we have to be around each other anyway, and in some capacity at times in the department we work in. This isn’t causing me so much stress as it is just general sadness. I feel like I can’t even approach her on a pass-by now because her demeanor upon seeing me is stone-freezing cold. It’s like I can almost see her putting up the whole front too because it used to be so opposite. I can’t believe how unbelievably we seem to be complete strangers. When just a month ago, I swore things were improving and we were engaging each other on an almost fun new level. Having lunch together, calling each other dirty names and just having fun being around each other. She made coming to work so worth it. Of course I would somehow mess things up.
The last few weeks have been rough on me emotionally but each night has gotten easier in a way. Strict LC really sucks because I have to go out of my way to avoid her and I know she sees this. I take routes to different bathrooms and engage with others I’m not normally around much. Some of them other Women. I’ve caught her staring at me and checking me out a few times but it’s not like it was before. Nor as often. I know she’s saying something to her friends about it, but they’re still talking to me so I guess it isn’t all gloom and doom. She knows she crossed a line this time and knows I’m not too happy about it but I’ve had to avoid her. She made me have to go this route by her refusal to want to talk to me about any positive strides I’ve made since my failed marriage. To me it’s seemed one-sided and a failure on her part to empathize. Something I see she clearly lacks.
As far as I’m concerned the luster of her has worn off. A limerent-like desire waning. I don’t hate her though. I’ve never stopped liking her. Infact I think I still kinda like her. I’m seeing her as the type now that just wants to have a good time. Can’t say it’s how I wanted things to work out but just like a LO, we can’t make them feel anything if they don’t. I feel like LF just wants a good time and her avoidant type personality makes that fact crystal.
The reason I’m reaching out here is after almost 3 weeks of strict LC, avoiding LF, her cold demeanor and basically her just ignoring my existence, she broke the LC first again, by smiling at me and saying hello. She had to come into my work area Friday to retrieve something and normally would simply blow me off, so I don’t know why this time was different. I was surprised but pleasant in return by saying “hey” back and kept moving. I didn’t reach out any more the rest of the night and still went out of my way to avoid, because I didn’t want to cave back in to her so easily. I know I’m pathetic but really trying not to be.
My question is, did I do the right thing and do any of you have any good advice that I should consider if she is trying to reach out again? I don’t believe she is all out evil. But if there is something I haven’t considered here, could you suggest a proper way to go about this so I’m not in over my head. Appreciate the support and hopefully no beating me over the head..
Hi MJ,
for my standards, you did absolutely the right thing in responding pleasantly but not initiating anything else. If she wants to get friendly again, she can come to you, as she was the one who initiated the cold streak. I would stay absolutely passive now. Would you like to be friends with her again or has that ship sailed for you? Just in case she approaches you, maybe she won’t.
“Would you like to be friends with her again or has that ship sailed for you?”
I think that Mila asks a very good question, MJ.
I hesitate to advise you because we only know some of what happened with LF. As far as I can make out, she went cold after you explained some of your history with women – even though she herself is one of the people “inhabiting a glasshouse” where it is famously dangerous to throw stones. This creates a bit of a question about her values and your esteem of her, I imagine.
On the other hand – work is a bore and we sometimes need to maintain morale, by having a bit of fun. The issue comes with keeping things ‘light’, perhaps, which is where you may need to do a bit of soul searching. Can you keep having a bit of fun without losing yourself over this woman? Ye are both single so its not hurting an SO to have the laughs. Unless it is hurting you, I don’t see any issue. But I do think that you should interrogate yourself, as you know best what is going to feel like to re-engage her, and what the risks are, to your own feelings.
@Mila,
It doesn’t seem like she’s in any hurry to approach again. I think I make her nervous sometimes but I don’t know what she expects, given how mortified she was by my revelations. I’ve tried to be nothing but sincere but I don’t think she’s capable of much empathy from how that makes me feel.
Think I will try to stay on the down-low for now. It’s really hard though. I miss my Friend.
hi @mj
I raise my coffee cup to you, friend.
We can tell you you did right, and I do praise your control. I think you are very right to let your executive brain protect you, after all her drama. You are not a toy, MJ.
At this point, I think you have to ask, really, of yourself. what do you want for future MJ? What would you like to see, for him, would you like to remain limerent, or in a state, over this woman?
See the answer as your north star. Do not follow ANYTHING else. Only the North Star. That is your truth. Period. Even if other things come in the way. Stay fixed on Future You, and do for him.
You are not pathetic. You are human. You’re doing a good job, and you deserve to give yourself credit. It’s very difficult.
take heart, csc
MJ, the other ladies have some great advice for you. I want to add a little.
If you can’t be warm, be polite.
If you can’t be polite, be boring.
If I understand your story correctly, LF pulled back when you escalated. She showed her limit. She is only interested in friendship with you. Now you have to decide if you want friendship or at least a pleasant working relationship or… something unpleasant.
Hi all, thanks for your replies.
What you are all saying makes perfect sense. Yes, @Bewitched, you make a really interesting point about all the drama (even the not great stuff) being a dopamine hit. Now it’s gone. I hate how I couldn’t just he friends, but I know it’s not possible, and I do keep reminding myself of the fact that the LE was entirely on her terms (almost). She has NO feelings for me. And that was never going to change. She values me and “loves her work bestie” because of what I was giving her. I was feeling empty and drained after almost every contact with her.
@LaR thank you for your offer if check ins. That would be nice but I know you’re all here anyway, so please don’t feel obliged. I do feel comfortable talking to you guys – including @MJ as you know my story.
I will keep going. I’m having therapy and I will get through this as I always have before. Thank you all so much for your support. It makes such a difference knowing that you get it – even though I wish none of us really had to come here!
Somewhere, there was a post from Imho for me..,
Imho, I have been on a business trip, but not the long one with XLO, but a short one (with his possible replacement on his job position) Interesting to see that once I decided to not engage with this guy since he freaks me out a bit with his similarity to XLO, and just stayed amiable but passive, he wanted to have coffee with me and stuff, while being passive himself before. There seems to be something in playing hard to get.
But I still can observe the small part of me who is attracted for weird reasons and tut at it, and not act on it because I now feel that there’s no real truth in this attraction.
This trip wasn’t a problem though, I still have to get through something non-limerence-related.
I hope you are feeling better!
In your case, I don’t see a sudden cutting off of contact on the horizon? I mean, he will leave anyway, the situation will change anyway. Just no rash actions in this emotional phase, please…
Hi Mila,
Thanks for your reply. Me and LO are on fairly low frequency of contact at the moment as I give him space for his future. I am just riding it out and trying to focus on my job. Struggling a lot to keep focus and motivation. I think it’s annoying hormones as well as the emotions around the pending DoH.
Interesting to read how you are observing yourself and the current interaction with this person and how you ensure to swerve a new LE.
Could be you are just a super attractive person with magnetic pull to men of that type.
Hope the other thing goes ok for you.
Imho,
I‘m actually a bit worried that I seem to attract neurodivergent types of that sort, or more worried that I seem to be attracted. I think it’s because they have a streak of absolute honesty about them.
Sorry, what is DoH? day of horror? Hubris? Hope?
My hormones always played a role in my LEs for sure, and nowadays they are completely unpredictable. It’s the beginning of menopause and I can feel my mood surge and dip without outward reason. I started on progesterone for 10 days in my cycle but am not really sure about it. It seems to level out a sort of restlessness/feeling low in the second part of cycle. Anyone here any experience with hormone replacement stuff? Ok, I admit it’s not the right platform here 😂
Imho, it’s good to concentrate on work, otherwise just let it roll and pass through you? Like accepting it’s normal to be a bit shaken by the situation, so not to fight it but not to dive into it either, so to say.
Hi Mila,
It’s Death of Hope. I know its coming. I think LaR coined the acronym DOH.
(He and Bewitched had some interesting conversation earlier today (above), just as an aside .)
I am getting some tests done as I told my nurse I cannot focus, overwhelm and some other stuff. After the results I may get medication and hormone therapy.
If my tests come back ok then maybe it’s a bl**dy good therapist I need, or just a good shake!
But Imho,
I hope you know that tests are not very significant in perimenopause, because hormones are fluctuating all the time, one day the test will get other results than the next day would.
So test results might be „ok“ but still it could be hormones. It’s definitely a good idea to check iron, B12 , Vitamin D though.
I do have problems with focus and motivation at the moment too, without any DoH looming..
will look for this conversation, but my feeling of overwhelm includes looking for posts on this site😆
I don’t think Mila coined the term “Death of Hope.” There’s a blog title by that name https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-death-of-hope/
But, I could be wrong.
Hi LE,
I think Imho just meant that LaR (not me anyway) didn’t coin the term, but abbreviated it to the acronym DoH that I couldn’t identify first. Of course it’s Dr Ls term and a very valuable post!
Dear Imho and Mila,
Did I hear someone mention hormones 👋🤟💪?? (He he). Well, I need to chime in here –
(look away, boys!).
Mine went bananas over the last few years and the mini pill (progesterone only, safe for 50+ years old) really worked for me (I was freaking out regularly (emotional meltdown) and having the worst hormonal migraines. It also acts as birth control for my out of control libido (since calmed down a bit).
Also, diet and exercise, especially diet. I felt so much better after cutting out foods that give blood sugar spikes.
Therapy via LwL also helped 😆😇🤣. I am through the worst of it now, I think. Not giving too much away but it it lasted maybe 5 years total?
ohhh @ bewitched
really? i can’t have estrogen since i’m ER+ breast cancer survivor (put into overnight Meno in mid 40’s…(i am now knocking on the door of 50) but i’ve never heard of anyone getting progesterone! normally, i only hear about people getting estrogen. interesting!
as to migraines….i had those for many years. the thing for me that actually almost totally stopped mine was stopping alcohol. though, i understand, as i read it, that your progesterone has been really helpful there, for you.
@imho
being caught in limerence, and the aftermath, takes soooo much energy….that may be a big component of your brain fog. i have had my struggles with brain fog, as well. epic struggles…
I have found that i can focus when I’m…outside, with friends, having fun…volunteering…doing yoga. etc. but, I can’t focus when I’m working, multitasking on boring things etc.
This tells me it is not my brain, but my LIFE that is the problem. I have to wonder how many women are told it’s hormones / meno/ peri when really, we should just get up, try some new things, and try to have more fun. i say this with much respect – it sounds like i’m being glib, i’m not. i really do wonder if it’s that we need to be outside doing things, engaging, having fun, and contributing, and that is why we can’t focus…because we are not allowing ourselves to do what we naturally want to do. just curious. 🙂
Dear CSC,
Yes! The progesterone was accidentally useful for helping with emotional meltdowns (though I took it for birth control). Heavy periods were also killing me, so it fixed that too. (Its safe so might be worth a try?).
I still get migraines but not as frequently – so I think it also helped with that too.
I am so sorry that you had cancer, CSC, I have always meant to say this to you but other things were more pressing. That just sucks. I am glad its gone now 🙏🙏🙏.
Also glad that you are staying the course with your NC. Good on you. And good luck with the ‘life stuff’ x
You poor love. I am
Hi Bewitched and csc,
(don’t look away, boys, you are kindly invited if you want to hear about what we have to go through on top of all other stuff🙄),
the progesterone (originally taken to regulate my period a bit) seems to calm me mentally down a bit too, in the days before I start taking it (after ovulation if that occurs)I‘m now somehow prone to anxiety and impatience, and that goes down after a couple of days of nightly progesterone.
But my doctor reduced the dose because last cycle, when taking the full dose, I got extremely tired and kind of depressed. Not sure about the whole thing yet.
I wonder if they gave it to me too early. But then, I don’t appreciate these anxiety-ridden days without progesterone.
I admire you, Bewitched, for having changed your diet. I seem not to be able to stay away from sugar.
You are right, csc, but then it could also be the other way round- women believing they are simply unhappy or unhinged and need to change their circumstances/partner when it‘s their hormones playing havoc with their mood.
I would ask your gynecologist about progesterone? I‘m so sorry you had, but so glad you survived cancer!
Ps
not to get hopes up unnecessarily, I’m afraid I have to add that I think any replacement of sexual hormones isn’t recommended for breast cancer survivors. But I would definitely read it up and ask your gynecologist, because maybe there’s a risk-comparison between risks of taking it and risks of not taking it.
Progesterone was a lifesaver for me, literally—I was at risk of cancer if I didn’t take it. I’m having no issues with it, and even though I’m supposed to be getting close to menopause and all that entails, I don’t really see anything all that different in myself. The trouble, though, is that I still feel energetic etc. while my husband isn’t all that energetic or interested anymore. 😛 Sure doesn’t help the limerence!
And Snow, I wish you safe travels and lots of fun, sun, good food and new inspirations!
🙏, 🔥 🍊 🍷!
It’s tomorrow evening flight and I have to go from work directly, which also makes it odd (pulling a carryon to the office, never me before). Once I get to the airport, I think I’ll be feeling more settled.
Then, I usually monologue storms on the go, trying to capture fleeting sentiments and thoughts… one never knows in advance how one would feel on each new spot one’s feet step on…
You’ll surely hear from me here, even if I’m swept away by some dark Romeos on the trail of Casanova… 😊 There were so many gorgeous (a bit wild to my taste) guys there, like walking sculptures even in tiny shops on a corner of a village, crazy! I tried hard to hold my 😮 (gasp)…. Hopefully it’s visual feast this time as well.
I’ve imagined to be Venice many times…my gf just told me that she’d decide this weekend when I’ll be in Florence, for the Full Moon and 🥳-day.
🫂
Hi Snow,
I‘m also going to Venice this year, haven’t been before..
Once you are in your plane seat, everything stowed and nothing more to do, you‘ll feel more settled for sure and can start to enjoy! It‘ll be great, I’m sure.
Just take care of yourself, don’t get led on by some tricksters etc.!
🔥 🍊 🍷, (🅱️ 🧙, 💃, 🍨),
I want to take a “big” meal in a nice restaurant, please advise, should I bring one dress or skirt with me? Is it necessary?
In the past, I just snacked local tapas here and there — anything looked alien (without heavy cheese) or sit in a tiny cafe for a bite. And you know here people in general dress casual, but not Southern Europe (?). I don’t want to look like a “shabby” dressed tourist.
So how are people dress nowadays for a nice/formal meal? Do you wear trousers or dress/skirt on your business trip?
I’ve checked in online last night, packed, but every half an hour, I remembered something I needed to bring. Last summer, I thought I packed enough thyroid hormone (without it for a few days, I could literally die), but discovered in Taiwan airport, that the second bottle was not with me. I panicked and emailed my doctor for an emergency advice. He (the most patient, personable, holistic in his field) emailed me immediately telling me how to divide (in dosage) the pills I had, so they could last until I came back in 3 weeks. Thus, I checked repeatedly this time that I have more than enough of it.
After a hot salty bath (should take it more often) and a “dreamless” sleep, I’m feeling much calmer and rested. Nowadays, without the LE ember, the Dawn has become so much peaceful, lighter — the best time for reverie (asked my work not to assign me any morning loads for next school year as well) ) or scribbling….
Wish you all have a nice, easy day!
Hi Snow,
since I dress generally quite casual in jeans etc., I usually bring either a dress or black trousers with a nice top for more formal occasions. Really, I think you will be ok with one item that’s less casual than jeans or shorts.
Black (or white) trousers and a nice top would be my go-to since that’s not too dressy but still kind of formal?
I think in Venice and Florence they are used to all sorts of people in very different get-up… so don’t worry too much, and you could still go shopping if something is missing;)
🔥 🍊 🍷,
Thank you for the advice. I have too much black stuff (the color of my town), but I’ll bring one skirt-pants that could match any top. Based on the weather, I could probably just wear a 🔴 sweater over it. I’ll wear my leather-socks — extremely soft, flat (a bird can’t wear heels), burgundy leather shoes that match all my clothes — matching my name — 🏵️ 🌱 🍅 ! 😀
It looks like it’s going to rain the most of days in both cities 😢, how am I supposed to sit dry in a legendary gondolier? I’ll carry those plastic wrappers for my invaluable shoes, and buy an umbrella when I get there.
I wonder how 🍨 is doing with 🎩 🌽 🌱!
Hi Snpw
I checked the forecast too, rain from Sunday on, but you‘ll be there tomorrow, no? Also, that can still easily change, forecasts are not that reliable. I wish you best of luck and a safe flight!
🔥 🍊 🍷,
I’ve reserved sunny Fri. & Sat for museums (already have tickets), and plan to visit Pisa (& another 🏘️?), and walk around a lot (I’m really fond of random walks). But if it rains heavily, then it sucks— can’t do “Singin’ in the Rain” 🌧️ all the time! While in Venice (16-19), it forecasted to rain ☔️ every today; Now, my 🇫🇷 gf would most likely decline to join me…
Well, it’s 🎱, what can I do? I’ll try to make most out of it with my light 🧥 — really don’t want to 🔪 my fabulous 👠-🧦 (more comfy than sneakers) — One and Only given by Father 10 yrs ago!
I’ll sit in cafe when it heavily rains and chat with you 👻 👻 👻 and become a ☕️☕️☕️ addict!
Snow,
I checked another website (iPhone weather being not very good), and it says, while there’s rain on 16., there will be no rain 17.-19., sun will even come out.
Also, no heavy rain in Florence, only light, and on Monday medium.
🍫 👖 ,
Thank you for your extra care!
Just dug out a brand new, very thin raincoat (w/ 10 pairs of ugliest, dark bluish shoe wrapper) bought from Japan in 2018, it’s in Kid size L! So my light, burgundy velvet jacket will be protected no matter what. (Hate ☂️ unless it’s 🌹 colored😀 ).
It’s horrible here, I keep remembering little things I need to bring , e.g. extra credit card, power adaptor).
Good gracious, I look like a refuges now going to work! 🤨
Hi Snow,
I hope you are enjoying Venice!
🏰 was so lovely! So much to do and only ☀️ and warm weather! What are the odds of that?!
No sight of 🌽🎩 or his 🚜 though…
🍧,
Despite 🌽’s abject failure, I couldn’t fail to notice and be gratified for you that the 🏴🌞 shone
constantly throughout the visit. It’s been like that all over the country for weeks – most unseasonal and against the stereotypes! Just a short spell until I get off for a while and I’m just hoping it keeps going til / through that.
Let us know, as much as you’re willing/able on here, where you got to and whether you found your authentic 🍧
Hope you enjoy your onward travels if you’ve headed on anywhere else 😎
🍨,
You’re so lucky to have all sunny days 💠 🏰, so rare!
I just got here yesterday and already injured myself this morning badly — 1/3 right big toe is dark blue, left elbow’s bleeding almost knocked myself out (can’t see flowing blood), right knee is limping, and right hand palm had a skin scrapped off… luckily my face is intact and I did see the most desired male Butt with all my injured might — What price did I have to pay for that eternally untouchable Butt!
The forecast says that Florence and Venice will have rain starting Sunday. Today is absolutely gorgeous, only that I could not enjoy it with all the pains — at least NOT Limerence pains!
Yes, if you wish, please let us know what you did over there… I like to record my trips to make them more memorable… So far, my impression is that Italians are still very warm and willing to help, especially if you’re a woman.
What’s your impression of British this time? (There are so many Brits here, I heard their accents all over places)
The folks from COO with a tour guide are in all big landmarks … At least they don’t get lost, I was circling the same area around and around, because the poor Google signal delays (by two blocks with my walking pace) directing and often pointed to the opposite directions. I already walked over 10000 steps by 11am.
Hi ❄️&🚜,
Snow, ouch! That doesn’t sound like a good start to your trip. But hopefully you’ve still been able to enjoy yourself!
As for my trip, I hadn’t been in 🏰 for ages and I was traveling with a newbie so we had to do a lot of touristy stuff. Buckingham Palace, Big Ben, Oxford Street, etc… Then throw in a musical and Hogwarts, amongst eating well, enjoying the sun… Thanks to LaR’s comedy tip I got to looking around and found a club for some stand up comedy. That was probably the most educational bit of the trip! 😂 I found out what Londoners – and some foreigners, because a few of the comics were foreigners – laugh at. I got a chuckle because apparently it’s northerners! 🌽🎩 Also, stand-up comics used to tell racist and homophobic jokes, but now they joke about racists and homophobes! Just an interesting observation…
But my god… I completely forgot to look for the perfect trifle! 😯 I did have a nice chocolate hazelnut tart however.
I just saw that LwL has been very busy over the past couple of days, but it’s a bit much for me to delve into. However, LaR I saw your recovery news! I was not expecting your LE to come to such an abrupt stop, wow! I’m happy that you’ve arrived at that place! Hopefully you don’t beat yourself up too much about “the wasted time”. Sometimes the lessons we have to learn are not quick and easy ones.
🍨 & 🚜,
I’m so glad that you and your companion enjoyed your London trip with theatrical scenes, it sounds so interesting; I enjoy tasteful and up-to-date comedies. Now I’m a bit envious last time I went to England to visit my x-grandfather-in-law in Oxford, my English was so poor!
Here I cannot do language entrainment at all, but listen to operatic sounds and engaging chats flying around, and watching handsome dark Italian men (except everyone has beard and often smoke)… I enjoy their easy going manner and super attentiveness towards women of all ages. I got their smiles whenever asking for direction — constantly got lost with my innate, devastating-poor sense of direction.
This morning after viewing that famous Butt, as I got lost among alley with my big 4 booboos, I randomly wandered into the super crowded center, Duomo and suddenly heard “Pavarotti” singing; first I thought it was recording, then knew I was hearing a real voice. His voice pulled me into his stage and then watched a street “Pavarotti” alive on the steps of Duomo without microphone or accompanying music! In grey sweater shirt, a pair of wasted jeans and sneaker, he looked like a real 👨🌾! That’s Italy! I constantly got surprised, with my over cautious mindset.
My right big toe is really swollen, turning purple, but not totally black yet. So I iced it and will do it more. With my limping knee and toe, I’m afraid I can’t walk as much as I have wanted for the next few days, bummer! 😠 If it rains, I’ll get my waited work done and stay inside some museums.
It’s too bad that you could not meet 🚜 with your companion around. If I go there, I’ll go to his work to pull his 👃 out of the “LE Wall”. Soulful 👻 friends like us deserve a cup of giggly tea and a whole trifle at least! Nothing in life or a 👻 land should be taken for granted, thanks to DrL again for this almost “surreal” site❗️
I’ll have to deal with my own “time zone” again tonight…. You rest well 🍨
❄️ and 🍧,
Look – nobody but nobody in LwL deserves a ginger 😁🍵 from 🚜 more than the pair of you do. What else can a 👨🌾 even say?! I will continue to man L’Amoors and keep L.E’s 👨🏭 and ⚖️ in check for whenever you may need to drop by.
🦜 🍑🍑🍑🍑
Thank gawd my 👃feels well 🕊 of the LE 🧱 now. 🚫👨💻 this week was impossible or I’d have bitten at the chance. I’m enjoying your 🇮🇹 updates.
Zeus in a street and a Limerent lady on a wall — Limerence Wall?
https://imgur.com/a/qdGpWGz
https://imgur.com/a/Qu1sP9b
“I was not expecting your LE to come to such an abrupt stop, wow! I’m happy that you’ve arrived at that place!”
It has taken me by surprise too. I guess I just saw a chink of light and then ran headlong for the door. Something really had to give – I am not unique or special among everyone else here at LwL who eventually realised it. It’s not without some incredibly difficult emotions, but I’m trying to ride out the storm and find peace.
🌽,
“I am not unique or special among everyone else here at LwL who eventually realised it.”
That’s one gold nuggets one could get from LwL.
Soon, you’ll be totally outside of the LE Wall, with an open sky over your clearer eyes.
🆔🧖♀️(@) 👖🌆 🍹
Hi Mila,
I am putting this down here, I hope you see it. This is a late reply to your kind inquiry last week.
I was at a very low point that day, and hurting deeply. Your kindness, and your thinking of me meant a great deal to me, that day…and in the past week.
i’m just catching up…i wanted to let you know you have been on my mind, and i hope you are doing well, and feeling steady. i believe you have a business trip coming up (or maybe are travelling right now) and it may be some intense lo exposure…i hope it’s not too disorienting for you.
with care, csc
Hi csc,
Sounds like you are feeling better?
Thank you for thinking of me! I’m not that steady (see my post to Imho about hormones 😆), but I’m ok and fairly happy. No worries about me and that business trip. I‘ve been on one, but the one with XLO that you probably mean is in a few weeks, and I’m quite equanimous about it (is there a word like that?). I think I might finally be able to just be with him without getting limerent or angry. I might overestimate myself, but I don’t think so.
I hope you are ok and moving forward!
Send you lots of strength and self-worth 💪🏻
My LO just left for a three-week business trip. I thought I would miss him, but I find that I am relieved. I am not worried about running into him at Starbucks, which happens surprisingly often. Since he is in the process of preparing his house for sale, he will be moving a long distance away within probably a year. He has a large, unusual house that may take a while to sell. I thought I was going to be pretty upset about this, but now I think this is the best possible outcome for my bizarre situation.
I can’t see any kind of positive outcome for my relationship with LO. Unless the limerence were to go away, but I don’t see that happening.
I’m sorry for you, as I think the awakening/ death of hope is a hard phase. i often have iatus of 2-3 weeks with lo and at the moment at the beginning I’m fine, even relived if it was too intense before; then i miss her after a few days, and I start to breath again and regain interest on the second week. I’m always relieved to find I can regain my breath after a while, because then I know if we have to cut ties I’ll be able to manage. If you miss him in a few days, hold on, it’s difficult but will pass.
I think the real positive outcome of our relationship with our LOs is most often only what we got to learn about ourselves in the process. Life is weird and messy anyway.
Good luck!
To S.anon: Thank you for your kind words. It’s only been four days and so have no idea what the remainder of the time will be like. At this point, I am still feeling relieved. The limerence takes a lot out of me, and I feel like this is a vacation for me. I appreciate being able to learn from your experience.
To S.Anon: Well, you called it. Five days seems to be the point where I switched from being relieved that LO is gone, to missing him. I do not feel comfortable contacting him, although I suppose I could. No point. Better to suffer in silence.
@Norma, Good luck with this phase!!
It won’t last forever.
There is no real point in contact… I’ve tried and always got crushed when LO didn’t answer. Because, well, she was doing something else and living her life. Such treachery!! 🤣
Try to do something else and distract yourself, even if just so you can dazzle him with your adventures when you’ll see him again ? ( we take the motivation where we can…)
I did that at the beginning but I don’t really have that lever anymore, mutual communication has gotten so bad that I can’t even fantasize on small talk anymore.
Best of luck anyway!
Hi all,
I thought I was near the end, but maybe not.
Something slightly scary happened that had me miss attendance at stuff we do together, and nearly miss the big project. It kind of evidenced that this stuff was complicated to do without me, because I compensate for a lot of problems, which I suspected a bit (and I think she feared for a while) while we didn’t realize to which extent.
I was annoyed to miss stuff, but when I finally came I found her a huge bundle of anxiety and stress and very hurt (not by me) and since then it’s like my heart bleed for her and I don’t know what to do to stop this.
We’re both extremely bad at communication: I seem incapable to convey any feeling of comfort to her, to the point I would find myself a very cold person from her point of view while I’m not with others, and she can’t seem to talk to me without biting my head off and immediately loathing herself for it. She doesn’t really write, so looking at each other is probably our most effective way of communication and it’s quite lacking. I feel very sad that I can’t even be just her friend.
I’ve considered we might be mutually limerent a while ago despite the huge improbability (we both have SO of the opposite gender…), and lately I had found a way to let go of this idea, true or not, and try to accept that this is going nowhere, that previous time is now lost, and that and I need to make time for other people and big things in my life I want to change.
Annnd seeing her like this brings everything back and makes me want to save her again. I think we need to talk – no plan to disclose, don’t worry, but at least to acknowledge stuff about our common activity that hang in the air- but between my awkwardness, her head biting and our mutual overthinking of everything it’s probably going to be complicated and hurtful 😮💨.
But I have changes to make in my life anyway and I realize this is also one of them. We’re too enmeshed now for me to just go NC or ignore the problems as part of my LE, and if I wait for it to become easier to talk as the LE fade I’m afraid she’s going to get worse and I’ll resent myself for not saying anything.😨
How a non-relationship can get this complicated, and how communication can get this bad, I have no idea. It was easier to tell SO that I have a huge crush on her. I’m deeply thankful to be with someone I can just talk to.
Good day to you all !
Dear S.anon,
“We’re both extremely bad at communication”
Your description of being tongue-tied around LO – and her being overwrought and out-bursty around you, despite virtually no relationship between you does resonate with me. I had a long distance LO who I only met in person on rare occasions. So we also had virtually no relationship in real terms, I would say. The occasions when we met were extremely over-charged. He too was bad at writing and so our virtual communications weren’t great (and we always with other’s copied in). They were work related, friendly in tone – however this would often descend (on my side) into horrible roller coaster feelings where I was practically biting the desk in frustration at him because of unclear language, rushed sentences, ignoring a file I sent him weeks before, asking for more than I wanted to give work-wise, etc. In person, there was a different dynamic – tongue-tied, sweaty, impossible to behave in a normal friendly fashion (me) and poor verbal skills and very quiet (him). Making an analogy to your situation, I would say that I came across to him as cold sometimes and over-emotional at other times.
Dr L explains the brain chemistry of arousal in one of his videos, epinephrine causes it (I think), its when we are so over stimulated that we cant get words out and our heart beats fast and we sweat. Its biological and there is nothing to be done about it until limerence goes away. I am curious whether I will experience this the next time I see LO, I rather hope not. The point is that its just a by product of being around LO when under the influence of the altered state of limerence. Don’t beat yourself up about it, it just comes with the territory.
“it’s like my heart bleeds for her”
I have had a similar reaction to my LO who I have diagnosed as neurodivergent (armchair diagnosis!). He sometimes makes mistakes or misunderstandings at work and they can be a bit embarrassing – it brings out my protective side but I know that I just need to leave him at it, while being a support if that’s appropriate, like I would for anyone I like. And I do like him, still. Thankfully the overpowering feeling of liking him a bit too much is waning for me these days. I hope this is going to help me relate to him as a normal person from now on.
Hi Bewitched
It’s funny, because I’ve wondered if I’ve come across as seriously autistic to her.
I’ve reacted strongly to her touch or proximity (adversely, as I was completely overwhelmed) so now she looks to avoid it most of the time; I froze on what to say or how to respond when she tried sharing things with me so now she doesn’t; she’s blurted hurtful stuff while trying to make jokes a number of times and although I don’t really mind now she avoid trying jokes; I’ve said nothing while she was fishing for reassurance on multiple occasions and I know she got hurt.
I would’nt say there is no neurodivergence here, but I don’t think there is case for serious mental issues, just different personalities that brought up an overcharged feedback loop. We don’t make effort in the same fashion or pace so usually I realize she was making some after I’ve pushed them away. Even as the difficulty wane ( I’m not so fast beating and sweaty now and I try to force myself to talk more) it’s difficult to correct this and now the things we avoided talking about because it was too complicated have become more complicated to clean up.
I feel for you, because I don’t know where I’ll be if I only saw her rarely (I’ve seen her multiple times a week for nearly two years, and I’m still in this mess). I hope you can navigate toward liking him but not that much and finding some kind of friendly territory ( this is my hope for me too)
Snow:
I’ll respond to your first two questions now and the other two a little later.
1. You met LO4 online but never in person. Have you ever seen her image or spoke with her online or over phone?
– I have seen many pictures of LO #4 but none of them are personal. There were several on her site and more on Google. We came close once to speaking once. She had a call in show on streaming radio. One time, the family was out so I made arrangements to call in. Just as we said, “Hello” the family got back early. We never really exchanged phone numbers. At the height of things, LO #4 said something and my response was my cell phone number. She never used it. She also has been doing YouTube videos since ~2010. I knew what she looked like. I knew the sound of her voice, her syntax, her cadence, her inflection. When she wrote me, I could imagine her sitting across the table from me.
2. She helped you work on your son’s issues, but you also got your own issues resolved/managed by interacting with her (along her website and LwL).
– When I got the inkling that LO #2 might have a Cluster B personality disorder, I did a lot of research and stumbled on LO #4’s site. I liked what she had to say and her style. LO #4 has a delightfully snarky sense of humor. I would post about LO #2 on LO #4’s site and LO #4 would respond. Free therapy. None of it was one-on-one.
She got paid for those. That’s how she earned her living. While it would have been worth it. That would have been impossible to hide from my wife so that was out. The beauty of working with an Employee Assistance Program is it’s done at work, on company time, and there’s no paper trail like a Visa bill to give you away.
LO #4 liked what I said and things went from there. She asked me to be a moderator on her site. There’s a detailed post on it somewhere. I don’t remember where. LO #4 know more about LO #2 than my wife does.
More to follow.
I’m beginning to think I might know who your LO#4 is….I won’t post it here, though. 🙂 I came across a lot of sites back when I was researching abuse years ago.
I appreciate that.
SL,
You’ve piqued my curiosity.
I talked to DrL. He said that if you send the name via the Contact link below, he’d pass the name on to me. We stay anonymous.
I will neither confirm nor deny it.
Thanks.
Okay, I sent it. 🙂
Thanks, SL
On my way to the airport, a couple of question to your 1st episode—
1. LO4 also saw your images, right? How?
2. How did glimmer take place? Who had it first?
3. All those occurred while you were in LwL?
Thank you for organizing the story clearly
1. LO #4 sent me a FB request in 2015. My wife told me to accept it. I don’t know if LO #4 ever looked.
2. LO #4 reminded me of LO #2 and reactivated some long dormant feelings.
I definitely had Glimmer for her. From her response when I disclosed, she never had Glimmer for me.
3. No. I didn’t find LwL until we’d already said goodbye. The EAP counselor labeled me codependent. Codependency doesn’t fit the dynamics of our relationship so I kept looking and came upon LwL.
👩🦰 🏃♂️,
“I definitely had Glimmer for her. From her response when I disclosed”
But what is this “disclosure”? told her that you had some amorous feeling for her? soon after you accepted her fk invitation or after a little while of conversation/co-running her site? You glimmered for her face, manner, thoughts, or combination of everything?
She never had glimmer for you, but she kept connecting with you and helping you out with your son’s issues? waiting for your second episode.
I only sat down for 10 minutes, they’re announcing the boarding in 20 minutes. What’s “struggle” to get here by subways, cross-state train, and ridiculously security line —exactly 3 hours (smooth all the way) at this minute (7pm).
Snow,
There’s a fairly detailed chronology in an old post. It would take a lot of work to find.
Short answer was that she sang to me. She and my wife are totally different women.
What pushed me over the edge was when things went south and she reached out to me. She poured her heart out to me like no woman ever has, not my wife, not LO #2.
When she told me that she was crying, it brought back memories of my mother sobbing in the bedroom during the divorce. I tried to cheer my mother up and I tried to cheer LO #4 up. I don’t know if she had anyone to hold her as she cried. I knew what is was like to have a woman bury her face in my shoulder and cry so hard that I could wring her tears out of my shirt.
As much as I wanted to be that person, I couldn’t be.
Not only was it logistically impossible, it wasn’t my job. I shouldn’t be doing well what I shouldn’t be doing at all.
When I disclosed to her, her response was,
“Wow! I had no idea. I’m flattered, and under different circumstances I might even be curious. But, circumstances are what they are”
“Wow! I had no idea. I’m flattered, and under different circumstances I might even be curious. But, circumstances are what they are”
Based on my COO, that is the cold-hearted, cruelest thing one can say to another who, for whatever reasons, has “killed millions of cells for you” due to 🧬 drive! In your case, she “benefited” from dumping out so much emotional stuff to you for whatever needs she had! That’s very ungrateful to me!
One should be very understanding, and not take another’s “heart” for granted, as long as one is not raped, physically or emotionally.
Last Dec after that unimaginable “disclosure”, I didn’t say anything to that 27 yrs old but simply blocked him (he got NC, not F). He never came to my area of the building this year. I think I can be very civil to him if I bump into him. “Men, oh Men!”
Got to run to make to the timed museum visit (8 minutes walk aways). By magic, my big toe swollenness shrank in half and stop hurting at least while resting. This Tomgirl got into some troubles EVERY single time during travel, but ALWAYS lucky enough to have “survived” okay. Nice people more than often miraculously appeared at my rescue.
My karma so far has been good over all, even during LE (could have died of that blood Lymphoma, if it were another type).
“Every road leads to Roma” (did I quote correctly?” I’ll be there tomorrow around 11 am local time. Then I’ll head for Florence by train.
Seated and relaxed, I’m watching fellow passengers, definitely more Italian features in the air, teenagers are more Romeo like; I m more convinced that models of paintings and sculptures in Italy were more of teenagers.
Middle-aged and senior folks are either sweet or somewhat pious — don’t know how to describe it. They are not English or French… most are not “intellectual” type you’d see in college…. A couple of them look artistic, philosophical, and sexy (right in front of my seat), my neighbor very pretty Italian girl of early 20s is also sweet and polite— she greeted me first and offered me to use her charger that’s plugged under my seat.
I have a soft knee for Italian sound, so operatic. But I still cannot feel I’m taking a “Roman Holiday” in Romeo and Juliet’s home!
I know I’ll get excited when I get there. Granny, Dad, and me belong to the specie of “excitable” …
Ready to glide on the runway…
L’Amoor Gang, I’m in Roma!
Everything went through smoothly, now I’m in Euro zone!
On the way to Roma Terminal…
Saw my red tail in the air, will show you later! (Need wifi)
Benvenuti a Roma, Snow!
Enjoy your visit!
Song of the thread: “Al-Di-La” – Emilio Pericoli (1962)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbghDLobFy8#ddg-play
The song is from the movie “Rome Adventure.” I would have been 6 when it was released. My guess is I saw the movie on TV much later.
I think “Al-Di-La” is one of the most romantic songs ever ever written. It’s been covered a lot. I’ve had a crush on Suzanne Pleshette ever since I saw it.
This is partly a reply to posts from @s.anon yesterday and also an update on my situation. @Mila and @Bewitched, some of it may interest you in light of our chats about trying to figure out ongoing friendships with xLOs. I am going to pack quite a lot in here, as I’m not able to update as regularly at the moment.
@S.anon,
all LEs are unique yet so much of what you say seems to mirror my LE situation. Our interaction frequencies and timescales for the LE ‘mess’ are almost the same, and we are both at DoH point now.
You say: “lately I had found a way to let go of this idea, true or not, and try to accept that this is going nowhere, that previous time is now lost, and that and I need to make time for other people and big things in my life I want to change.”. I am a couple of short months into properly letting go, and all of that is on the mark for me too.
I also mirror your “We’re too enmeshed now for me to just go NC or ignore the problems as part of my LE … how a non-relationship can get this complicated …” and “no plan to disclose, don’t worry, but at least to acknowledge stuff about our common activity that hang in the air”
Although my background and ‘what hangs in the air’ are clearly different, I too have no plans to disclose, and it is presenting similar difficulties around ‘how to be’ now. If not disclosure, how else do we reach mutual understanding of ‘what has happened?’ – of ‘where we were then’ vs ‘where we are now’? I am still hoping it can go unsaid but reasonably mutually understood. Maybe it has. But for now, it is making communication between us hard, and making me want to avoid it. A lot of the difficulties are in my head, but some are ‘real’ between us and she must sense them. She doesn’t ‘bite’ like your LO does, but a lot of the warmth is gone, from both sides (I will elaborate on my side of that below – but in short, it had to go for the sake of my sanity).
On – “I’m deeply thankful to be with someone I can just talk to”, I find my gratitude for SO and for us holding together is at a really high level. I feel a lot of guilt for how I allowed my head to be turned so far away from her for so long – as you put it, “previous time is now lost”. That can’t be changed, but it makes me all the more determined that we will move forward positively now.
—
So a general update for anyone interested. Communication between me and my xLO (yes, I now feel I can use that phrase) is pretty difficult. All aspects of relations between us have tapered off quite rapidly, but exposure is still necessarily very frequent. I am coming to realise that navigating that is a big part of the fatigue I am feeling – maintaining any kind of normality in those interactions is absorbing a lot of my energy. If a temporary NC option (to regroup and figure things out) was now available, I would happily grab it. It may surprise some of you who followed my earlier ramblings to hear me say that. But waves here to @Speedwagon and @ABCD.
I am coming to realise that our dynamic relied much on my limerence. I minimized the difficult parts and maximized the benefits of interactions because they were feeding me dopamine. She responded to this ‘unconditional positivity’ from me in kind and it went from there. In a way – and @Snow, this may make sense for you given earlier things you said about friendships vs ‘this friendship’ – I know now that I was offering a kind of faux-friendship that hinged on me feeling limerent and acting in sync with that. I gave her a lot of my time and positive attention – a lot more than anyone would usually be willing to give, and than was sustainable in my position.
Now, I really know that I can’t give that attention level while living in peace and my head and being with SO. This realisation and change to my behaviours was quite sudden (although as mentioned before, it involved a ‘say it without saying it’ initial conversation with LO). Now I feel we are still trying to be nice to each other and maintain good relations, but don’t quite know how.
I have removed the limerence-fuelled way I was acting, and don’t even have the *ability* to act in that way towards her any more. She still seems to want a lot (not all) of the benefits of the friendship of before, but I can’t supply either the time or the attention in the same way. And what’s more, I am feeling resentful about even having to supply it – some days it proves impossible.
It is like I forced myself to see her flaws to get out of limerence, and now I am struggling to see the benefits of the relationship, period. But – I also recognise how unfair of me this could sound to people reading it. I realise that it *actually is* unfair too. This seems like my post-limerent brain over-reacting to what my lim-brain did. I am trying not to act that out with her, but just say it here in this safe space.
So I am in the midst of a massive re-negotiation phase of the friendship – trying to neither be unfairly negative towards her, not step back over any lines, whilst trying to work out what is beneficial for myself ongoing. I think this is at early days, and is going to take time and patience. I still hope to have something friendship-wise left at the end that’s mutually wanted and beneficial. But what that looks like, and getting there, seems like it will be a bumpy ride – much bumpier than my utopian lim-brain used to think!
—
@Mila – how much of my update sounds familiar?? So far I’d agree with what you’ve said before on all these points: 1. expectations of these post-limerent friendships will always need to be adjusted down a lot, 2. a switch can’t just be flicked back to the friendship as it was before limerence, even when that is a long friendship like both of ours, 3. that a reactive negative/resentment stage follows the exit from limerence, 4. that how to behave towards the xLO ourselves, and the xLO’s behaviours towards us, can seem quite draining at this stage, 5. that exposure is not that helpful and that some distance might be better.
So Mila, in summary, I’m not doing that well with the baton of hope you passed to me for a post-limerent friendship working out! Time will tell, but for now I seem to be passing through similar stages that you did. I would now think it would be very hard for anyone to pull it off, actually. I’ll be interested to hear how yours progresses when you have the work trip and whether you have reached a new normal that feels comfortable for you.
Hey LaR,
That all sounds hard but inevitable. I imagine that it must have been hard even admitting it to yourself, nevermind admitting it to us, that friendship is impossible right now. But I do think its inevitable because there is a period of adjustment now. Its like an over-correction that has to happen before settling back to something normal. I’m confident enough in the latter happening when one is dealing with a ‘good’ LO. You’ll separate a bit but then eventually want to hear from them (above and beyond strictly work stuff). Your LO was always okay with you – sure, she may be a little annoying at times – who isn’t? But she has her positive ‘spontaneity’ that you enjoyed a lot. Of course, this sort of thing can be good / annoying when it comes to a work environment because it can affect your workload (say) and we don’t always have energy for having people who add to our workload. I also get that on top of everything else, the interpersonal dynamics are requiring so much energy at the moment, but that will wane. Mila’s been questioning whether she enjoy her dynamic with xLO enough to continue to consider him even a distant friend, and I guess the question will answer itself, in due course.
We reach out to friends and look forward to seeing them, whereas, with people who are hard work, we don’t meet them half way quite as much. I think that how you feel about your xLO will settle back into something more comfortable, in time. Then your gut will tell you whether you’re genuinely keen on catching up with her socially (over coffee, say), or not. I suspect that you will want to, but the choice will be yours. Its so interesting how similar our LOs sound! I got frustrated with mine, so spontaneous but with no follow-through. Did you see my comment about biting the desk in frustration with him 😂 😂 😂 ?
Now that you’ve decided you can now refer to her as ‘xLO’ and enjoy the calming balm of your SO’s company, I think you should celebrate (whoop whoop!)
I will add that I sound so phlegmatic now but I am in the same space myself. When I have interaction with LO/xLO he can provoke an over-the-stop exasperation in me. So much so that I consider throwing my toys out of the pram. If you recall, a few months ago I was considering stopping all work involving this person (much of my work is under my own direction and I can choose not to work with him, but it would also mean not working in an area I enjoy and losing contact with others, so I haven’t taken that step – yet.).
Just in case you were thinking I’m like Mother Teresa over here!
Mother Teresa,
Yeah, it has taken quite a lot to admit that ‘out loud’, but doing that here is kind of part of admitting it to myself and hopefully part of the acceptance and healing. The similarities between our (x)LOs and also our sources of exasperation seem quite unerring, actually! You are very shrewd at reading between lines of things I say WRT, for example, “workload”. Funny how that was the sort of thing I was quite quite happy to take on, right up until when it wasnt and other workload miraculously came back to the top of the basket! Sound familiar?!
I think the dynamics of our two LEs (obvious gender difference aside) haven’t been all that dissimilar, from bits I have picked up over time. I’ve learned a lot from you about how to handle the different stages. I hope you’re right about what will come later … I am always inpatient for ‘the next stage’ but really have to accept that the adjustment will take time. I’m hoping I don’t undo too much of the good during the adjustment phase, because I’m having to force myself to be drastically more distant at the minute. I don’t have the natural (geographical/physical) distance that, say, you did to be able to fall back on, so creating the distance I currently need is quite tricksy.
Ah yeah, also to acknowledge your other reply about ‘what was special about THIS LO at THAT time?’, I think there are big similarities there too. It doesn’t always have to be a massive historical issue (e.g. see Dr L’s own examples). More, in some cases combine background difficult circumstances with some apparent sparks flying in your direction and, boom, the LE is off and running! When I think about it, most of that applies to my previous two LEs as well as this one.
You keep going with all you’re doing, won’t you?! It sounds very positive from what you say lately.
🧊 & 🅱️ 🧙,
My 🎩 to both of your progress‼️ Still can’t imagine how I would be able to do it if in your shoes — with xLO in sight and SO in bed 😀 ❗️
I have neither except my own 🫥 my guide… so much easier and freer fly or jump around, taking drastic actions in terms of severing LE…
Keep moving forward, fatigue will go away one LE is truly out of your bone…
Very sleepy on a train, may serve you guys some 🍹 later!
Sorry about so many typing errors, the train is in and out of tunnels in Tuscany’s rolling hills…
🦜 yes please! What 🍸has Amoors got for my current mood?!
Hope you are enjoying the journeying. Have you reached your first destination yet, and where is that?
“Sorry about so many typing errors, the train is in and out of tunnels in Tuscany’s rolling hills…”
If the idea of that was to make anyone feel remotely jealous, it succeeded!
Dear Snow,
Your missives from Italy are very endearing. I feel as though I am sitting with you on various modes of transport. You are sounding excited and happy! I hope you are continuing to have fun.
Hope you get some sleep! 🤗😘🤠
Monologue — 4️⃣🈷️🔟🌞
Up here in the sky, everything looked so pure, dust-free….so many bright stars that could drive tear… It makes one feel so small and insignificant; in this infinite purified space, all human dramas collected together seem to be “smaller” than a grain of dust, totally invisible in the Solar ring!
The slim Italian girl next to me is such a Juliet (Camila, not 14-15, but around 32), so young, sweet and graceful (working for LavAzza). We chatted about her family, school and work, the importance of maintaining a slower-paced life yet international (for her) We joked about what happened to us when we sat next to big person in previous flights…. Dozed off for over a couple of hours, and woke startled, not sure where I was, then I saw her smiling face and felt warm… Lucky me (rarely talked to my neighbor passengers)!
I forgot to shut down the windows, FORTUNATELY! I caught my own tail appearing in such a dark sky — a breathtaking of a rebirth…
https://imgur.com/a/5tBmBVf
https://imgur.com/a/h7U8Cu6
https://imgur.com/a/ofmehz1
https://imgur.com/a/nCcblpB
Then, the boiling Sun gradually, 🆎 rising out of thin clouds, so much golden-red fire— the whole sky is on 🔥 ! For a good luck, I always carry this quarter-sized, black volcano chip (made of materials from volcano) bought from Cancun 4 years ago. Through it I was able to watch into the sunrise the whole time, its 🆎 gorgeous shimmering center and golden radiant edges….
An unbelievable luck so far….🥇 (🚾-©️)🅱️🧖♀️🔥📮🫴
A picture speaks a thousand words, doesn’t it?
🧊 & 🅱️🧙
I was too tired yesterday to say anything and just dropped dead in earlier evening. Now, I’m up in my old time zone after a dream frequently happened while traveling abroad — the sense of homeless. It’s not that I already miss home, it’s just seeing strangers everywhere and then sleep in a strange place…
Moreover, it’s fatigue; physical fatigue always induced bad mood in me and negative memories from LE…. You see everything has two sides, on the other side of excitement and anticipation, there is this depression and negation licking. That’s why having traveling companion is more important to me — taking me out of this “isolating” mode…
That’s why monologue comes in to help. You guys must have wondered what I was talking about those thousand pieces of monologues, from one line to 10 pages… I had this NEED to express what’s going on in my explosive mind with zero expectation to get replies. Does any of my missives sound like needing?
I want to be honest with your guys about my present mental state, hopefully any of you don’t get offended. I APOLOGIZE if I do to any of you, I couldn’t help it. This happened too last time when I visited COO —
When I’m in a foreign land (even feeling lonely) checking LwL, I feel it (graphical in my head) is like a “mad house” filled with hundreds of “sad and mad” complaining, lamenting, ‘screaming” round and round about “much ado about nothing”…. Even when I was still in LE last summer, I could not help feel this way; I had so little interests in joining in last summer during my school reunion. This time, after seeing the sacred sunrise yesterday, I am looking inside babble again — 🙈🙈!
I know you’d DEFINITELY feel what I am feeing once you’re out of your LE, you’d understand why some of you are feeling so fatigued. I have little/zero emotional or mental charge while my LE scenes popped in my head here or there, and vague ET still remains pleasantly (he was never rude or cold to me, even when I pulled off NC on his face, which hurt me worse).
Now, my mind is taken over by new sites, new languages, new types of faces (btw, I still can’t rest my eyes on those “dark” Italian men’s face, not even one second; there are some Asians walking around speaking COO or Japanese!), and 🆎 old buildings, houses, stone walls and copper stones — my most favorite part!
I guess what I’m trying to say is that “exotic” travel takes one’s mind out of their reality, making them peeking into the babble from without, feeling “amazed” and dazed. Of course Intellectually, I know what’s going on and I care, but I just could not help feeling so much of the precious energy is poured and wasted in the merry-go-round” LE sentiments and mentality; the dark side of LE is indeed a horrible disease. I’ve never seen it so clearly.
I guess from another angle, I want to say that once you get outside of the giant LE babble, you’d see how our mind was so unproductive and “wasted” in LE. Trust me, you (collective) DO want to GET OUT OF LIMERENCE, there is nothing sooooo special in your LO (all kinds) or LE, it’s absolutely an illusion. (of course, xLO can be a friend, if they came prior to LE, but I strongly doubt it based on my current indifferent mindset)
🧊,
Limoncello 🍹 , fresh mint 🍀 , and sizzling Italian soda 🥤 of your choice is for today’s menu. I’m so glad to hear that the term MFF has switched to xLO, nice going! 🥂, Buddy 🫂 !
I can’t feel where I am exactly (in Florence) in a dead night, but much less alone by rumbling and mumbling to you guys — the power of monologue (more powerful than journals, even if the audience 👻 👻 )‼️
I know in spirit, I am not alone — a silly faith…. Who can jump out to refute such a belief⁉️ If you do, that proves you’re with me 🤭
It’s futile trying to sleep while jet legged… I’m in my own time zone now!
I have a question for anyone about time.
US and COO has 12 hours difference; so how do you count time of birth? by its local time zone or “actual” moment?
Let’s say you’re born in 7am in COO zone, but it was still 7pm in US zone hours earlier. Now if you live in the latter zone, then what actual time should be considered as the birth moment? 7am or 7 pm?
Specific time and space seems always pose a great importance to me in my whole life. But I don’t follow Astrology stuff at all (My cousin drove me nuts with its lengthy report!)
❄️🍕,
That picture of 🔥🐦 rising in the sky (the last of the four) was just amazing.
Thank you for the 🍹 – Limoncello was right up my street.
It makes total sense that when you’re somewhere new and exciting, bustling with new things to see and do, LwL appears to you like a merry go-round of much ado about nothing. Thanks for explaining that to us. You can choose what you do and don’t engage with here while you’re on holidays. What you’re observing is like an outer eye on just how all consuming limerence feels to people trapped in it or trying to get out. But your post is a great reminder of something that should be obvious really – how much else there is to see and do out there, and not to waste those opportunities.
“I know in spirit, I am not alone — a silly faith…. Who can jump out to refute such a belief⁉️ If you do, that proves you’re with me 🤭”
I think that’s what I’d call a Catch 22 question! 👻
😩
At this moment, I’m sitting down looking at the e most famous butt in the world, and cursing his name —
In order to see his nakedness, I got badly injured an hour ago, they almost called ambulance for me because my knee and left forearm were bleeding terribly dizziness. I tripped on the copper stone street and fell almost on my face and couldn’t get up right away due to physical shock and terrible dizziness.
The cause — not enough sleep and no breakfast in order to meet 9am Appt to get in.
A nice restaurant owner, who witnessed my hard fall, opened her door, sanitized my wounds, banded them, and gave me a bag of ice. She called taxi for me to the museum, I can’t change it to another day.
Another an hour line, I’m finally sitting down to dizzily stare at the glorious butt!m — Can one fall in limerence with such a butt? (PA only)!
There are no bench to sit in front of “DAVID”! Otherwise…. 🙈🙈🙈
🦜,
Is this a ‘Stoic glimmer’ I’m witnessing? 🗿🍑
That fall sounds bad. Hope the diziness subsides very soon. It’s heartening how the locals helped you out. It’s awful trying to get over jetlag and adjust to a timezone that’s so different to your own. (I don’t know the answer to your timezone question).
“The cause — not enough sleep and no breakfast in order to meet 9am Appt to get in.”
Sounds like most of my workdays in recent memory 😂 I know that feeling well when it is only 2 hours to the alarm, the best thing would be to sleep through them, but the brain just won’t play.
I did get sit down in one of two benches in the front of “DAVID” now…😍 and get free tour in English….
Now they finally talk about Medici family, instead of just the measurement of his physique and appendix on the statue.
If you have time and patience, you get a lot from those tour gaides.
🧊,
The catch-22 question is what I believe how religion/faith works. You cannot prove God do NOT exist, so s/he continues work on his believers.
Stoic is not a monk or nun!
This Stoic enjoys everything in front of her eyes or already have, without desiring to own them, just with boundless IMAGINATIONS! No thought crimes! 😊
Ohh, Lala….
Now, I’m out of museum sitting in a tiny cafe , tasting a Pistachio 🥐 , which I never had before, it’s delicious! Their expresso is like a bullet strong!
My four booboos hurt, can’t walk fast anymore. My left elbow seems okay now without its bone sticking out (as the first bloody sight indicated) the cab driver agreed with me that I didn’t need to go the emergency room, but “eat, eat, eat”… Italians are so warm hearted. I’m lucky again!
Guess what Souvenir I got from the medien? The famous BUTT only , and the whole “DAVID” in 🧲 for refrigerator. With so much injury, I have to bring something back to remember the experiences.
You’re dragged along with my tiny footprints… why am I helplessly narcissistic⁉️ 🤔
🍫 👖 ,
You talked so much about butt with Marcia, now I can’t help check men’s all over the Italy! The slim, middle aged, very dignified-looking man who sat next to me from Roma to Florence has such a tight butt that I just gasped, wondering how he has kept that 😳
Today, I got more chance to see the world most famous, street, and gallery butts, so want to see if they can match up with your SO’s butt! (Is one of them LwL’s Watcher? )
1. https://imgur.com/a/uGe5Z8J
2. https://imgur.com/a/53jalpr
3. https://imgur.com/a/d3ETIKc
4. https://imgur.com/a/h7mpeoa
5. https://imgur.com/a/jR5JXJL
🔥 🍊 🍷 Confess, which one is more like the one of your SO❗️
„I am coming to realise that our dynamic relied much on my limerence. I minimized the difficult parts and maximized the benefits of interactions because they were feeding me dopamine. She responded to this ‘unconditional positivity’ from me in kind and it went from there.“
„She still seems to want a lot (not all) of the benefits of the friendship of before, but I can’t supply either the time or the attention in the same way. And what’s more, I am feeling resentful about even having to supply it – some days it proves impossible.
It is like I forced myself to see her flaws to get out of limerence, and now I am struggling to see the benefits of the relationship, period. But – I also recognise how unfair of me this could sound to people reading it. I realise that it *actually is* unfair too. This seems like my post-limerent brain over-reacting to what my lim-brain did.“
Of course that‘s exactly, exactly what I went through, only that you can express it much better than I could! In my case, it was all triggered by the fear of losing him because he left work, that might be different from your limerence, but otherwise basically it’s the same- ramping up the friendship myself in a limerent illusion of soulmate-situation, him liking it and getting used to it and now suddenly getting cut off of this supply of validation and wondering why (another difference might be that your LO is a bit more aware of changes and reasons), me being resentful and spent, not capable of directing even more energy in that direction etc.
It’s a wise remark of Bewitched that we tend to avoid people who are hard work, especially when we are limerence-exhausted.
It’s mainly my fault that the relation is hard work and not pleasure anymore for me now, but it’s a gut reaction to avoid/resent a bit, even if I know I still like him. Unbeknownst to XLO, I put so much energy into this friendship, I simply have nothing left to give, but how could he understand?
(but I still have to say that he consistently behaved so disappointingly not like a real friend or soulmate that I think a small part of my resentment was rightful and not only caused by limerence).
I think once our LOs ceased to be hard work, meaning once they take normal amount of space in our head and lost all special significance, we can get back to a normal pleasant friendship. Or so I hope.
In my case it might be a bit different because we don’t work together anymore.
„5. that exposure is not that helpful and that some distance might be better.“
Sometimes I think it would have been harder to stop limerence if he would have stayed here, sometimes I think it would have stopped easier and faster.
It could go both ways in your case. Exposure is draining at the moment for you, but it could also work the other way- getting used to see her in a less flattering light and getting this new normal view worked into the fabric of your life, as opposed to someone far away with no reality checks.
I‘m curious how that works trip goes too. Unlike you, I haven’t seen him for quite a long time now, no reality checks, and we‘ll see how I will react to his presence. At the moment he doesn’t seem to be important, I forget about him quite often. There’s texting, but not as often, and not as warm from my side, and he cooled a bit too now, I think. The thing is, I’m his closest acquaintance on this trip apart from one other person (who is actually more my than his friend), and he kind of is dependent on me for social contact on this trip, and he knows it, I guess. Actually it has always been like this, him being socially not very adept. I‘m curious if I will feel like taking this role on once more or not.
Hang in there, LaR, it feels bleak, but it’s the way upward. I think it’s true that a friendship like we envisioned while limerent isn’t possible simply because back then we saw a glorified person that doesn’t exist, but there might still be the possibility of a normal, usual friendship to this real person. There’s no sense in forcing it, though. I would, as you do, try not to act it out too much on her, but it’s still most important to care for yourself now. Time will tell if she stays in your life ,but now is not the time to decide or force a friendship.
On another note, I battle fatigue too at the moment. I‘m sure it isn’t related to limerence any more. Must be the dam.. hormones.
Mila,
Oh drat those hormones!!! (Sorry, typical terrible male response trying to make a joke of it – glad for you that you have the other LwL ladies to talk to about this).
“it’s a gut reaction to avoid/resent a bit, even if I know I still like him. Unbeknownst to XLO, I put so much energy into this friendship … I simply have nothing left to give, but how could he understand?”
“I think it’s true that a friendship like we envisioned while limerent isn’t possible simply because back then we saw a glorified person that doesn’t exist, but there might still be the possibility of a normal, usual friendship to this real person … but now is not the time to decide or force a friendship”
You have worded these things beautifully. Those of you who are ESL are too harsh on yourselves about how you express things! I could not have put any of that better.
“Hang in there, LaR, it feels bleak, but it’s the way upward”
Thank you. I tried to get all the ‘bleak’ out in one swoop in that message, but I do see positives too – mainly connected to feeling like I have made a renewed commitment to SO (and to myself) – even if she is unaware of the facts, she might be able to detect it. I need to get past this stupidly tired stage, but I’m sure I will. It is just that the limerence hangover + the coping with interactions together are proving quite a lot.
Here’s something I can now say that I haven’t been able to really come straight out and say before – I feel now that I’m exiting the LE, that LO and I probably wouldn’t have been compatible at all after the initial fires were done. I also know she would not have been a better option for me than SO. I couldn’t really say that with conviction before. Unlike you, Bewitched and others whose convictions on that stayed strong, my limerent brain worked very hard to tell me the opposite … and it took a lot of executive brain not to cave in to it.
Do keep us updated on how your trip goes, and I will on how this situation keeps evolving. At least I feel movement now (even if uncomfortable movement) instead of stuckness.
Dear LaR and Mila,
I have been wondering if limerence came along to reinforce commitment to SO. Hear me out: you’ve been married for 15 years, the spark has dimmed in the relationship; along comes a glimmer for someone who excites you in ways that you haven’t felt for years; there is some reciprocation (they may not be limerent but they certainly like you, maybe even lust after you); this comes with an extraordinary feeling of emotional connection; it all goes to your head and you become addicted to them; you cant see LO’s negative sides because of the dopamine etc; However – its futile (various barriers); one day you realise they cant give you what you want; pain squared as you extricate yourself; LO becomes a ‘real person’ to more and more of an extent; interacting with them becomes painful and weird and you feel angry or depressed around them or after interacting with them; thank god SO is the same normal funny/reliable/helpful person they always were; “I’m never doing *that* again”.
Mid life crisis over and we set the scene for the next 30 years of contentment having toyed with losing the head for a silly season, in a way that made us feel 17 again….
CSC posed a question about post limerent brains and painted a graphic picture of what they might look like (mud, broken trees). But I believe that there is a sunny upland too, given time and the right sort of reflection/ gratitude.
Hi Bewitched,
answering to your midlife crisis-version of limerence.
While that fitted my first LE to a t (this expression just popped up in my head. Is it real?), in my case it happened two times again, and I think it’s not that simple, at least for me. It’s another craving or need that wants to be filled, or sometimes I thought it’s just true about monogamy not being for all and I just fall in love because there are special lovable people for me, without taking anything from LO. Maybe the last part is also true, but it wouldn’t have evolved into painful limerence/neediness if there wouldn’t be some unmet unhealthy psychological need involved.
I do appreciate my SO more through it, but especially in the first LE I‘m not sure of the distraction didn’t save us from major discontent and fights. I mean I’m really not sure, maybe that’s b..s.
I think I’m really out of the woods, meaning that there‘s no chance I will get limerent again for XLO and hopefully not for anyone else any more. It should be cause for celebration, I just realize. But it feels more like a calm revelation or even goodbye.
Also, could be it’s just the hormones (LaR😛)… and tomorrow they will upset all calmness..
Of course I mean „without taking anything from SO.“
Hi LaR,
I hope you see this! I had been on hiatus from LwL for a little bit…but wondered regularly how you were faring.
Your update is really interesting to read. From where I sit, in a total self-enforced NC, (no LO at all) I understand your desired\ to have total NC, as a way to get a break for your poor mind (and possibly, exhausted heart).
I can’t recall how far in you are with your enforced LC? I am currently 2 months out of phys. NC but only 3 weeks of total blackout NC. I’m…better in that I’m off the roller-coaster, but I am wiped out.
I have been thinking about your fatigue. It sounds like it’s still a factor for you? I am suprised how tired I am these days. I’m exhausted. I am actually allowing myself to do that whenever possible. Could it be that our lim-brain chemicals did this damage? I think…yes…in my case at least. (I would love for Dr. L to do a post on “post-limerent symptoms” or something. Maybe one exists already…
I am glad to hear you’ve had some interesting changes. For instance, feeling, for whatever reasin, that you simply cannot behave the way you used to, to LO— even if you wanted to. That is a HUGE corner turned…and maybe not on purpose, but it’s been turned. I understand that irrevocable shift. Welcome back, Executive Brain! (my theory, at least…) *exec brain comes in, suit in tatters, one shoe and sock missing, glasses askew, limping, (smiles weakly)…*
I am very sorry you don’t have a way to totally distance yourself. I hope, somehow, you are able to take a pocket of time for yourself, somehow.
Do you know those pictures, after WWI, where the entire landscape is destroyed…just mud, burned land, and a couple dead trees jutting from the ground? That is what my brain feel like, now that it is over. There is not much left! It’s a very empty time. And I am disoriented. But, mud is mud, ground is ground, water is water, and there will be a meadow, that is how it works, as far as I know.
I really appreciate your update, and thank you for all the help you’ve given me. I am thinking of you, LaR.
Warmly,
csc
@ LaR
oops – by “do that whenever possible” i mean, specifically, sleep like the dead.
reasin is my new way of spelling reason. and I have finally located the closed-parenthesis on my keyboard, so I say, with enthusiasm
)
and apologize for the insane amount of typos above.
i’m exhausted and typing, also i now have a standing desk, and just woke up from one of these epic naps, it’s all too much for the peanut-brain….oof! :))
@csc,
Thank you for the as always lovely empathetic reply.
I only have time for a quick comeback but am preparing a more detailed one for later playing around with some artistic license on your excellent visual metaphor of exec-brain …
… for now, I just want to say that you/I/anybody at this stage needs to just allow those epic sleeps to happen whenever we possibly can. It is easy to berate ourselves but really we need to recognise that our self has been at war, for serious lengths of time … and the very least we owe that self is to let it rest and recover how it wants to.
A hiatus from here is just fine. Do what you need to do, we all get it. It is nice when we hear from you! On weaker/tireder days, I haven’t been posting, and my LwL output had gone down an awful lot before a burst today (stronger day).
@bewitched, I saw your last reply. I believe there can be sunnier uplands too. I think what CSC is talking about is the brain/self in the more immediate aftermath – hollowed out and in a state of almost shock. I am trying to let that be for now, alongside the better hopes I have for the longer term. I don’t know if it has been the same for you but the DoH etc has been a real emotional rollercoaster for me.
@LaR
Thank you. I can’t tell you how relieved I feel knowing this fatigue is probably due to what I have been through (put myself through) in limerence…though I am sorry you know enough about it, to relate! I would not wish this on anyone else.
I shall sleep. I’m tired. I do feel guilty, you are right. But, I also hear you on letting my shell-shocked brain regain itself. I will definitely take your advice and sleep as often as needed. 😴🥰
Thank you for replying so quickly … And for being so kind, always!
To @bewitched yes right now I am in the flattened battlefield stage. I know that flowers will bloom again…but also that they are on their own schedule and I can’t make it happen…little by little there will be signs, I’m sure. That will be beautiful when it starts to happen. ❤️😌
csc
csc, my fatigue twin,
I’ll start with your metaphor as I try to set out exactly why it’s ok for us to feel tired and be very compassionate with ourselves about it:
“*exec brain comes in, suit in tatters, one shoe and sock missing, glasses askew, limping, (smiles weakly)…*”
I think that’s hilarious, but exec brain (yours, mine, anyone after DoH really) is much worse off than some wonky specs and missing socks. Exec brain has been in one of the longest and hardest fights of its life – a fight for its existence. It is more like a bloodied soldier walking off your battlefield from earlier, victorious but wounded. And after months or years of fighting.
Not only is exec brain so wounded, but now it is expected to perform (while so wounded) at its very best to stop us relapsing or blowing our cover.
All the while lim-brain, which inflicted most of the damage on exec brain, is being bundled out of the door by the bouncers against its will, shouting obscenities on its way out. After it is bundled out, it bangs the door to remind us. It lost, but it doesn’t want to go quietly. Exec brain now loathes its presence rather than just trying to balance it out.
Back in reality – an LE knackers our brain over a long time. During that time, we functioned at a falsely high level to impress our LO. After DoH, from that we have a massive hangover and comedown to contend with, yet still try to keep ourselves functioning, sometimes with LO still unavoidably in our face with expectations of us. Then there is the heart, as you mentioned (and thank you), that went where it wanted whatever exec brain said – it’s battered.
That’s why you’re tired, and that’s why I’m tired. We both just need to be very kind to ourselves now and let that all start to heal. Which means sleep sleep and more sleep if that’s what we need!
For the avoidance of doubt, I’m not moving over to join the “limerence is all bad” camp. What I’m writing about here is the raw immediate aftermath. There will be plenty of time later to reflect in hindsight on the whole kit and kaboodle.
Here’s the start of a joke for you:
“Why did the baked beans always know best?”
Please supply the punchline!
With care in return,
LaR
Hi LaR,
Indeed, I’ve wondered about this questions too.
“If not disclosure, how else do we reach mutual understanding of ‘what has happened?’
I think this is a question that has been on the back burner of my brain for a while, because every time I plan to talk to her i make scenario to explain why communication was bad between us, and that I didn’t want to hurt her, etc. I wonder if this is just a smaller form of the limerent need to disclose. Lately, when I consider if I could be disclosing, it’s more about being understood and moving on , like ” yeah I was weird, but you know what, the problem was that I had a huge crush on you, sorry. I’m getting better “🤣
It would probably fly, and I suspect she knows, and my so knows anyway, so it’s tempting but still a bad idea. I’ve considered other reasons – mostly on my part – that are likely even more at the center of this than limerence, but they sometimes appear even wilder to explain properly and I’m not sure my rational brain is ready to stand by this. I’m wondering if it’s all just temporary lunacy. In your case, I would just wait to see if she wants to confront you about the changes or not. When water has gone under the bridge, it’ll probably be easier for you to discuss this if you want to keep a friendship. Being understood well is quite rare and not that necessary to keep a working or vaguely friendly relationship with her: in your case I’d just try to reassure her that it’s not something she did wrong and that you don’t suddenly can’t stand her.
“It is like I forced myself to see her flaws to get out of limerence, and now I am struggling to see the benefits of the relationship, period.”
There is a bit of this in my case, too.
She’s a teacher. A few month ago, getting booted out of her activity because she couldn’t stand me anymore was a terrifying but quite recurrent thought, even though I could tell she was afraid I’d leave. I knew rationally that the difficulties in communication and the ups and down of our exchanges did not make her the best choice of teacher for me, yet I’ve defended her multiple times over close people telling me this.
But my discussion with her yesterday went both as usually and very differently. As usual:
– I couldnt form a proper sentence in the beginning
– I said maybe 10% of what I needed to and we relied on half wording and looking at each other for the complicated parts
– she got mad and very defensive while I wasn’t attacking her
Very differently than usual thought
– I got the courage to start to talk (🤦♀️)
– I realized everything she does makes it more complicated to communicate, not less, and I got annoyed by this ( yeaye! ) rather than self loathing on my inability to talk
– I insisted on at least a few of the stuff I needed to say so it could get understood rather than fold immediately
I now realize now that some of things she does are wrong and some of the projects I had with her were actually pipe dreams and would have gone very wrong if she communicate like that with others too and we can’t talk about it. I’m more annoyed that self loathing, which is like getting holidays 🤣
But for the bumpy ride of navigating this relationship, I think what helps me is to keep in mind that she’s a deeply flawed individual that I still love to bits. I now I need to take a break on myself but I don’t think either me or the world is going to get better by forcing myself to love one person less.
Best wishes and good luck !
Hi s.anon,
Thanks for replying.
Do you think you are going to have to leave the activity that she’s the teacher for, to exit the LE? Or do you think you can do it without that step?
You obviously don’t need to answer this, but if your SO knows, what’s their advice / wish here?
“I wonder if this is just a smaller form of the limerent need to disclose. Lately, when I consider if I could be disclosing, it’s more about being understood and moving on , like ” yeah I was weird, but you know what, the problem was that I had a huge crush on you, sorry. I’m getting better “🤣
Yeah, I get torn between whether my motivator it is ‘disclosure lite’ or a genuine wish to keep communication between us as good as possible. On your above wording, I’ve thought about it too, but always end up thinking it would come across like ‘had a huge crush on you, *but not huge enough to actually act on it*, sorry’
I think that sounds naff (with the extra implied bit added in) and that’s one big thing that stops me disclosing.
I have already said a couple of ‘it’s nothing you’ve done’ things, especially on days I’ve been really rocky. I like all the ideas in your last paragraph too.
All good luck back!
Hi!
Thanks back. I’m relatively new and not well adapted to finding the threads out there so sometimes I miss answers but its cool to be able to discuss this.
Oh, I am absolutely doubly down on the activity and not leaving ( and not leaving *her* at the moment unless it really gets unbearable ). Part of it is with her alone and part is with other people and her and I also like the other people so I don’t want the option to have to avoid her.
” but always end up thinking it would come across like ‘had a huge crush on you, *but not huge enough to actually act on it*, sorry’”
But that’s kind of the point, isn’t it?
We don’t actually want to leave so to be with LO. To me, even if we were mutually limerent, I think this is still true for me and would probably be true for her. And from the perspective of receiving this kind of declaration without prior warning, I think I would be more reassured by someone stating this than by someone declaring its flame and willingness for us to ride to the sunset together while we have virtually no relationship ( and I’m a girl, I realize it’s not necessarily obvious).
I would understand this point ( crush but no willingness to act) as something not under the other person’s control and not asking anything of me. Still some would react badly and as limerence tends to put stars in our eyes it’s probably safer to stay put at least until it has gone a bit more😅
About SO, when I decided to tell i realized:
– he was very scared I’d leave with her, so he must have picked up on it and stressed on its own. I actually reassured him
– I was overly stressed to damage our relationship and promised to leave if he wanted me to. He thought that was absurd and couldn’t see why I’d do that
– it was damaging to us both to keep it unsaid, because we’ve grown closer emotionally since. But at the same times, I know see that when I drift back to limerence and phase out or idolize her he knows why and it might hurt him, so I have to keep me in check and take care of him more. Which is fair, I think, and good overall.
But I’m very very luck with SO. We communicate quite well, he’s very open and even the fact that SO is a he and LO is a she flew remarkably well.
So, since I think I have the best SO in the world I can’t really make recommendations 😂
All the best!
Hi s.anon,
Delayed response with apologies for that …
It is good to hear that your SO has understood and handled it so well.
I wonder if on some level the woman/man thing might make your LO feel less of a threat to your SO, than if LO was another man. Somehow it feels less of an affront to him *as a man*? I think in a weird way I would take it better from my SO if it was like that.
I don’t think my SO would take it well if I told her outright about my LE (and who would blame her?). I have got as far recently – now I feel I’m coming out of it – as “I got myself into spending too much time with (LO) and I now realise I don’t want to anymore”. SO took that well. As mentioned before, I think she’d rather not directly know and deal with the hurt that would bring, as she has never directly challenged me on it, despite knowing who LO is and that we were hanging out together a lot.
On your point about finding threads on LwL, if your browser has a ‘find on page’ function (on a phone; on a computer ctrl+F does it) you can open any blog and type in a word or phrase and it finds every instance of it. That’s been helpful/time-saving in these coffeehouse blogs that end up running to many hundreds of posts. Shout out to @imho who I learned this from.
Hello. I went back to my last comment in the Mental health coffee house but I think comments are off.
Today I am struggling (again). I’ve never made it far enough through NC to every get past the withdrawals. I had an unpleasant message from LO the other day which I think he was sorry about as there were several overcompensating messages after but I said that I will mind my own business and haven’t messages since. 2 days. I nearly contacted several times today but keep seeing the message that hurt my feelings and then stop myself. I think I had a slight panic about the prospect of not speaking to him again but then I also really want to make it through this. I just can’t ever imagine being fully NC or getting to the stage of indifference despite trying before. I can’t actually believe that this won’t be a part of my life forever. I’m feeling gloomy and defeated.
Dear Whoomp
I think that you and I are at similar stages. I am largely miserable after having to actually sit my (work) LO down last week and tell her that I needed to go NC, after she just wasn’t taking the LC hint. It didn’t go well.
You’re right, the withdrawal sucks. I feel lonely, isolated, bereft and useless. As much as I know that my LE was making me utterly miserable, I miss it. I miss her.
The advice that I’ve had from a few trusted souls here, is to stick with it. I intend to. No good will come from backsliding.
If it helps I’m happy to keep checking in for updates. I know it’s hard – believe me I’m feeling it right now. I’m exhausted; my emotions are all over the place. But I will get there. And so will you.
Please keep me posted. I hope that peace comes soon.
Thoughts and best wishes
JM
Whoomp and JM, I feel for you both.
(JustMe, I read your message from early today also saying you felt the need to reach out to your LO and only didn’t for accountability from some here on LWL. Just so you know I listened)
It’s good to write here when you feel compelled to contact LO, when you made a contract with yourself not to. It’s a good diversion to come here for those who understand.
I think it’s sometimes worse when you are improving a bit and think you can now handle it, and it will be fine to make contact ‘we can be friends’, only to find it sets you back.
My LO is long distance, so in theory it should be easier, but my LO is going through a lot of things and I feel compelled to offer help, but it’s not my job.
I need to sit on my hands.
Sit on your hands and keep them warm. You will not reach out to them today or tomorrow. Maybe sometime in the future, but not today. This is my way of getting through not making contact.
IMHO: Perfect sense. Yes, the temptation to be the supportive soul is almost all-consuming, isn’t it? Trouble is – certainly in my case – that’s partly what gets us into these messes in the first place!
I’m not sure that distance is a factor: you either “fall for” someone or you don’t.
Thank you for your words, those along with everyone here have brought me comfort,
Absolutely Justme! being attentive and supportive gets us into these messes in the 1st place. Us limerents are big hearted, neurochemically messed up beautifully caring and intense human beings!
(Most of us at least I like to think)
Fall for him I did, and I don’t fall easily! and he knows that too.
Let’s have a great day tomorrow. 🌞💪🏻
@jmmo
JustMe, I know it is very very difficult. I am having a rough time of it too. It is hard to think it’s going to get better. Tbh I don’t remember feeling happy, I don’t remember feeling normal.
Compassion helps, and I am sorry you’re having a hard time too. We are doing the right thing, I am certain. The alternative, remaining in the limerent state is not sustainable…but…it doesn’t make coming out any easier.
When at some point we both start turning a corner, I really do look forward to comparing notes with you. I have had a couple of spans where I felt ok- even hopeful, again- but, they’ve been short-lived.
It’s definitely not a straight upward line. My progress looks more like a very very jagged and unpredictable line (maybe more stock-market-esque these days) aaagh
I hope you feel some relief, however brief, in coming days…I believe you will.
csc
CSC
Beautifully put, as always. Your stock market analogy sums it up perfectly. Every day is fighting the addiction we all have. And the thought of having to avoid it is crippling.
I was out with a good friend of mine last night. He is only 1 of 3 people I have told (including my therapist) about my LO. He has offered me to message him whenever I’m tempted to reach out to her, which is so kind of him. My sneaky Limerent brain has memorised her phone number, so I can’t even rely on that!
Every day that I don’t reach out to her is a win. I have to keep telling myself that. In the meantime I will carry on my self-discovery work to find out why limerence is a part of my life.
It really saddens me to know that you are suffering, dear CSC. Knowing what this is like I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. I also have to keep searching for reasons to explain my anxiety and low mood to SO, to whom I haven’t disclosed. She’s got a work history in mental health, so thinks that it’s “one of those things”.
I do indeed look forward to the day when we can compare notes and trajectories. Until we’re both able to do that, thank you for your continued support and encouragement. I am thinking of you in your battle and wish that peace will arrive for you soon x
JM
IMHO
You have summed me (us) up perfectly. I agree, that it what makes us so lovely to have around, especially when we fall for a non-limerent as in my case. I know what you mean, the fall is long and the landing hard.
Yes, let’s make today a good one 😊🤗
Snow:
3. Why did you define it as LE/EA, instead of deep friendship? If it was LE, what were the symptoms? How did it affect your private life? Did your wife know about it?
– I defined it that way because LO #4 and I were never RL friends. We had met each other, we had no history prior to my encountering her, and we had no direct impact on each others’ daily lives. I met two of her other moderators in person and another, one of her inner circle, called me to talked about things. She said I was a real friend to her. I don’t know what she based that on.
If you research Emotional Affairs, you’ll find any number of lists of indicators. I consistently hit 2/3 of the indicators and the only reason I probably didn’t hit more was that we were geographically separated. If you look at the Archives, DrL has several blogs related to EAs and one specifically why, you can’t be genuine friends with your LO. One of my favorite related blogs is, https://livingwithlimerence.com/im-totally-over-this-lets-go-for-coffee/.
I think it was limerence because of what I learned on LwL and the difference between codependency and limerence, limerence describes the dynamics of the relationship and others I’ve had in the past.
Did it affect my private life? – Yes, it did. At times, it felt like LO #4 was in the room with me. I had my phone on silent and I’d wake up, check it and find a message had come in from her minutes before. I was leaking like a sieve.
Did my wife know? – My wife was aware of my involvement on LO #4’s site and my being a moderator for her. She didn’t forbid it but she didn’t endorse it. When I told her what happened to LO #4, my wife went into a heightened threat assessment mode. Every antenna my wife had was spinning. My wife asked me if LO #4 was after me. My stomach went in a knot. I was honestly able to tell my wife that I didn’t think so. My wife never considered that I might be after LO #4. If my wife had asked that question, the conversation could have turned very ugly very quickly. That minefield was there for 3 years until I disclosed to my wife and swept the mines.
When I showed LO #4’s email to the EAP counselor, she asked if my wife knew about it. I told her that my wife was aware of the acquaintance but not the extent of it. The EAP counselor said, “So, you’re hiding this relationship from your wife?” I told the EAP counselor LO #4 and I hadn’t ever met or directly spoken. We weren’t in a relationship. The EAP counselor replied, “Oh, yes you are.” Hiding the nature of a relationship from your SO is a hallmark of an EA.
The EAP counselor asked why I was there and I said that I didn’t want to attach to LO #4 for and I didn’t want her attaching to me. She looked at the email and said that ship had already sailed.
All this stuff is covered in excruciating detail in the old blogs.
4. How did LE4 leave you? You went to NC with LO4 (she’s 2500 miles away, right?), or LE fire completely extinguished in your system, while you’re here and on her site helping other LwLers? How long did the LE4 last?
I crossed paths with LO #4 for about 5 years. The Glimmer developed early on. The LE/EA took off at the 4 year point when her relationship collapsed. I don’t ever want to repeat 2015.
– Another long and well documented story. I was in the EAP counselor’s office less than two weeks of getting LO #4’s email about the demise of her relationship. I read the email, thought “Oh, F–k, I don’t need this.” I saw my self-standing on a mountain watching a giant snowball rolling down the hill at me. LO #4 wasn’t the first woman to tell me this, she was the third. I knew where this could go and as a now married man, I couldn’t risk it. The EAP counselor said the geographic separation could have been one of the best breaks that I ever caught.
The EAP counselor told me “to get away from her and stay away from her. Stay involved with this woman and it will not end well for you.” That’s when I disclosed to LO #4. She wished me well and said if I was able to get my feelings under control, maybe we could stay friends. I thought I got them under control and we re-connected. But, I couldn’t and I went NC. She broke it after 3 months. I went to war with her and after a period of very intense exchanges, I went NC again. She sent me a FB friend request. I accepted it. Shortly, after I had a dream about LO #4 in which I almost drove my car over a cliff. The EAP counselor said that I didn’t need a gypsy to figure that one out. I asked if we could unfriend each other. Her response came in less than 10 minutes and she blocked me.
On New Year’s Eve afternoon of 2015, I sent her an email wishing her a Happy New Year and asked if maybe we could re-baseline in 2016. The next morning there was an email from her that said that since I couldn’t keep things platonic, it wouldn’t be appropriate to continue to correspond. She also shot the elephant in the room by bringing my wife into it. That had never happened before. LO #4 had checked-mated me. I was leaving either way. I could take the high road and exit gracefully with what little integrity and dignity that remained or take the low road and try to convince LO #4 that she was wrong when she wasn’t.
It was very hard at first but perseverance pays off. A few months later I was back in the EAP counselor’s office trying to figure out WTF happened so I would never do it again. I wouldn’t find LwL until several years later.
I think that closes the loop.
“We had never met each other.”
I hope it’s okay to post about non-LE issues. I had something very emotional happen today that I would like to talk about. I have three adult daughters who do not speak to me. Right before one of them stopped speaking to me, I purchased a gift for her new baby. I never had the opportunity to give her the gift and we have now been estranged for several years.
I have next-door neighbors who are just about to have their first child. I decided to give this gift to them. It’s an extremely personal gift and I got very choked up handling the gift as I was making my decision. These people are extremely kind and I am happy to pass this item on to them, even though I get a little weepy.
Sometimes I feel overwhelmed by so much loss–first a scorched-earth divorce, then the loss of all three of my kids, and then an unwelcome attack of LE.
Norma,
I understand, from within my own life. I had a series of blows before my limerent tendencies resurfaced (and during my LE’s).
I’m so sorry you have had these kinds of layered losses. I know, it can be hard to fathom sometimes. and very intense when it hits.
Giving the gift to your neighbors for their baby is beautiful and touching. It takes an extraordinarily resilient person to to continue to give, even after things have been hard and painful in one’s own life…
I can understand why your gesture for the neighbor family was bringing up all those emotions for you.
I’m hoping you see this message. It sounds like it’s been a hard day. take good care. ♥️
To CSC: Thank you for your kind words. I don’t feel the least bit resilient, but I am so grateful for all the ways you have helped to uplift me.
Hi Norma,
Yeah, I know…I don’t walk around feeling too resilient either.
But…we are. These kinds of things destroy some people, drive them to seclude themselves, or to hurt others, maybe even to end themselves.
That is not what you are doing. However slowly it painfully, you are still going, still reaching out, bravely. You are giving! Finding ways to do that even in your sadness…That is what triggered you yesterday, but it’s also what makes you strong. I know this in my own life.
You have friends here and you are not alone. i know it may feel that way, but you are not.
today I have allergies, I think I’ve sneezed 8 times typing this! I’m off to medicate myself before my eyes start to puff up 😭
With care,
♥️ csc
To CSC: Thank you again for your loving support. It really means alot to me.
Norma D,
Love your username. Did you know Swanson tried to get the movie made into a musical decades before Andrew Llyod Webber did in the 90s? One was actually written by two men she commissioned but the studio wouldn’t let them have the rights. Swanson knew that character was gold and she wanted to keep playing her.
“Sometimes I feel overwhelmed by so much loss–first a scorched-earth divorce, then the loss of all three of my kids, and then an unwelcome attack of LE.”
IMO, limerence sneaks in when we have holes or gaps in our lives. (I think that’s why Dr. L suggests purposeful living; it’s (supposedly :)) a fortress to buffer limerence.) So you may have become limerent because of these losses. It’s our mind’s way of filling in the gaps. Creating a bond/connection with someone that feels really special. I’m certain the gaps caused mine. Filling in the gaps of middle-aged malaise.
I got so excited about Carol Burnett I forgot to respond to your comments. I agree that limerence fills in a gap somewhere. I remember thinking, when I first became interested in LO, that it was the first time my mind was really taken off the extreme sadness about my children. Of course, now LO is his own extreme sadness. So by trying to recover from a loss, I caused myself more loss.
Norma D.,
“I got so excited about Carol Burnett I forgot to respond to your comments”
That was funny. I like the Gone With the Wind sketch where she’s wearing the curtain rods (Scarlett in the dark green dress).
“So by trying to recover from a loss, I caused myself more loss.”
That’s the problem with limerence. It’s only a temporary distraction. And when it fades (and it always fades), the limerent is left with whatever he/she was avoiding while being limerent. It stinks.
Marcia,
People often come out of an LE with more baggage than they came in with.
I’ve never seen anyone posting here who came out of an LE with any less baggage than they came in with.
Limerence is a symptom, not a cause.
The baggage I carried into my relationship with LO #2 followed me right into my marriage. LO #2 added some new baggage.
👩🦰 🏃♂️ ,
“I’ve never seen anyone posting here who came out of an LE with any less baggage than they came in with.”
Really ❓❓That’s a depressing phenomenon! You mean I’d do worse than before I went in LE? Are you saying those who claim they’re out of LE exit are doing worse? How do you know?
Do I sound worse than I first come to LwL? Should I expect and prepare for some worse to come ❓🧐
“I’ve never seen anyone posting here who came out of an LE with any less baggage than they came in with.”
I’m definitely worse off so I approve of that message. And then some..
👩🦰 🏃♂️,
I knew my cptsd got so much better even during LE, and took over the parent role for myself on 7/7 last night, when I had that spa dream… Now, I’m out of LE through a kilo of tears…
It seems that there is a switch inside my head, which my sub conscious or rational mind can turn it on or off, with time, effort, and an unstuck mind open to external hand….
👩🦰 🏃♂️, I 🆎 disagree with your statement.
It’s a matter of semantics.
I looked and I couldn’t find a formal definition of what constitutes a Limerent Experience in the same way what the definition of Emotional Affair is. Maybe DrL can draft one and a checklist of indicators (that’s a hint).
My definition is that I’m in some kind of active relationship with an LO. Once I broke free, there was still grieving and analyzing what happened that remaimed. I may no longer had anything to do with my LO, there was still a lot of work to be done.
When everybody has a different idea about things like definitions and terminology, it’s sometimes very hard to communicate effectively.
When I was doing analysis work or grieving, I did not think or claim my LE was over, I called it LE ember, I know its residual flickering. The same goes with recovery of cptsd, which took at least 2 years prior to COO trip last June, even with a hope of post-LE friendship (didn’t and couldn’t work).
Then a dream in the midst my first Covid and two hours of sudden flowing tears just flipped the respective switch…. I know myself well, in the past when the switch was turned off, a peeking bystander soul could call me “cold” or “cruel” — it’s just indifferent.
My T brain was trained well by Father. He forgave people but did not deal with them, unless absolutely necessary.
For the definition of EA, I’m still somewhat baffled by how to definite it in the West, particularly compared to platonic, genuine friendship.
“For the definition of EA, I’m still somewhat baffled by how to definite it in the West, particularly compared to platonic, genuine friendship.”
From the perspective of the participants, it may seem entirely platonic. To an SO, they may view things as emotional betrayal equal to or surpassing physical betrayal.
The participant is operating on a level of emotional intimacy usually reserved for an SO, often keeping aspects of the relationship hidden from their SO.
LE,
“I’ve never seen anyone posting here who came out of an LE with any less baggage than they came in with.”
And I can’t think of any poster who ended up with their LO in a serious relationship. Correct me if I’m wrong (because you have the memory of the Library of Congress :)), but I don’t remember ONE instance. Whether the poster left their SO for their LO or was single and got with their LO or opened up their relationship with their SO and ended up with both. I don’t even remember that many actual PAs. A few but not many. A handful of consummations if both were single. But, again, not many. If a person becomes an LO, that usually means they’re an unhealthy choice and not much is going to happen between the limerent and the LO. That’s my read on it, anyway.
“Limerence is a symptom, not a cause.”
Yes. But during the LE, it feels like the LO is some big love. But that’s all projection on the part of the limerent.
Marcia,
Check out https://livingwithlimerence.com/my-story/
Dr. L was limerent for his wife. He talks about being limerent for your SO. It’s usually in the context of the limerent entering an LE once they have an LO. Limerence wasn’t a problem for him until he had an SO to consider.
It was much the same for me. I was single for my first 3 LEs. I was married when for the 4th. The only people who had skin in the game in the first 3 were my LOs and me. I had a wife and kids to consider for #4.
My bet is happy limerents for whom limerence has never caused problems have no idea what limerence is and wouldn’t care if they did.
“I don’t get it. Why is everyone making such a fuss about limerence?”
LE,
Dr. L was limerent for his wife. He talks about being limerent for your SO.
Yeah, I know. That’s not what I meant. That was limerence that didn’t cause an issue. And didn’t get stuck in limbo.
I’m talking about people on here who are already married. Or have a serious partner. And become limerent. Or who are single and the LO isn’t that interested. Nobody’s posting on here if the limerence isn’t causing an issue. 🙂
I can’t think of one instance where things worked out into a relationship with a new LO on this site. Not one. I can barely think of that many PAs. Or even consummations if both parties were available. If you become limerent for any length of time, it’s usually because things aren’t moving forward. Things get stuck in limbo. That’s telling you everything. (You being “universal” you.) It’s telling you it ain’t happening.
👩🦰🏃♂️,
“From the perspective of the participants, it may seem entirely platonic. To an SO, they may view things as emotional betrayal equal to or surpassing physical betrayal.“
Are you saying that without SO, it’s platonic friendship; but with SO, it’s EA? Isn’t it a double standard? I don’t think they are the same thing, the emotional weight and intensity are different.
Marcia,
I remember one post of someone who checked in to say that he/she left their SO and is happily married to his former LO now. Cannot remember if male or female.
Mila,
“I remember one post of someone who checked in to say that he/she left their SO and is happily married to his former LO now”
Are they still together now? 🙂 Sorry. I guess it’s possible but very, very rare. That the limerent actually leaves, that the LO is interested enough for them to do so, that they end up together.
And, honestly, I don’t think most limerents want to leave their spouses. To be honest, I’m not entirely sure what they do want. 🙂
Marcia,
I think it might be the problem of definition of limerence again. Is it only limerence when it’s painful and futile and causes problems (and you land on this site), or is the heady infatuation and obsession that might happen to singles too and might lead to a happy relationship (like in the case of my SO and me) also called limerence. I think people who have a good outcome of getting together with their LO might just not post here, or post here in their unhappy state and not bother to write later when the outcome is happy. I don’t think this site is a reliable source on how limerence ends for whom…
For me, I only count unhappy limerence where I, as you say, never wanted to leave my SO, but that’s my personal definition.
Sorry to cut in—
That speaks in my case with LO#4. As soon as I got officially married, I felt passion was leaving me. Incidental discovery of SO’s 4 prior and post engagement flings made the heat cool down fast. I agreed to restart and and work on the marriage, but it just could’t work out in 7 years.
I didn’t know I had optsd and needed an idealized “parent” — can only be oneself after adulthood.
Had expresso, pistachio croissant, and inside Uffizi. Only heard loud COO tongue, 🙄 everyone else is whispering!
Some thoughts on the debates about terminology:
(Aside – that ex poster you mention, Mila, was called Steve. When he first posted he was in a PA with his LO. He checked back in a couple of years later with a one-off post and said he had split from SO and married LO).
About ‘EA’ vs ‘LE’ debate: an EA can only be called an EA when one or other participant has an SO. That’s because the ‘A’ part = ‘Affair’, and an Affair in this sense involves ‘cheating’ on someone. The same dynamics between two people could not be classed as an EA if both are single, but as an EA if one or both are partnered. Either way it involves a much higher level of emotional intimacy than other platonic friendships with a member of the sex we’re attracted to. Maybe this is a Western thing, because Snow has said before that ‘opposite sex’ (sorry for stereotype but you will get my drift) friendships in her COO can be much more intimate. I think if there are similar-to-EA dynamics in a friendship between two single people, it is usually on the road to developing into a relationship.
And lots of us are meaning different things by ‘limerence’ too (ironic given where we congregate!). I’m along Marcia’s lines of seeing limerence more as the ‘stuck’ version – the dynamics when a relationship is going nowhere. In the past I’ve had similar feelings to the early euphoric stages of limerence but gone on into relationships with those women. And then it wasn’t something I’d really call ‘limerence’ anymore – just the way a relationship develops. Maybe that’s similar to DrL and his wife – but he does describe that as limerence. I think, Marcia, that that’s why you say we never hear of limerence working out well – if we only define it as stuckness, it won’t work out.
But others like L.E. refer to people as LOs who they were in relationships / consummated with – I guess this is where the ‘person obsession’ element stayed strong?
Aren’t we kind of comparing 🍏 and 🟠 there, if we don’t agree on what the term means? Most of the second group of people will never find or write on LwL, so we don’t hear of any ‘success stories’ that started with limerence here – just the ones we get stuck and ruminate on.
LaR,
On the terminology topic, I was limerent for my SO with a big unknown if I would ever see him after the glimmer.
I started obsessing. It got resolved after a few months when our paths crossed again and reciprocation took place.
I don’t know if I would have deteriorated and got in the stuck phase like I am now. Maybe I would have done, I will never know.
So, I’ve had one good LE and one decades later that has got me in this current mess.
Maybe it’s “chronic limerence” for those who get stuck and cannot form a relationship for whatever reason.
Chronic, like a long term illness
Definition:-
Lasting a long time, long-continued, lingering, inveterate
Also chronic used colloquially as a vague expression of disapproval: bad, intense, severe, objectionable.
Imho,
Yeah that makes sense about the terminology. I guess its undeniable that the triggers and initial feelings are the same whether it can be consummated or not – so the earlier phases of limerence are mirrored. It is just that the consummated kind doesn’t ever make it to the bad phases like rumination or deterioration (at least not in the same ‘chronic limerence’ sense).
People are sometimes at crossed purposes here on LwL depending if they only see the ‘stuck’, chronic version as limerence, or also the consummated type. Also it is a massively biased sample here as only the stuck group wind up on LwL. Your story about SO is another argument against ‘limerence only turns out bad’ – we just don’t hear from the ones where it went well. About fair?
I am rooting for you to find a way out of the LE. I realise how I have been painting the dark side of the DoH phase quite a lot here lately. And I won’t deny it is tough. But there are some positives too – brain breaks, a feeling of freedom, and knowing that once I have got some energy back, I’ll have headspace to focus on other things, and quite looking forward to that.
Mila,
“For me, I only count unhappy limerence where I, as you say, never wanted to leave my SO, but that’s my personal definition.”
I personally define it as limerence if it’s unhappy and has gotten dark and obsessive and and there are barriers or not full interest.
If it’s two people mutually infatuated who get together with no barriers … it’s not limerence.
If you don’t want to leave your SO and you don’t want an affair … what do you want? I don’t see what else there is other than a nebulous “friendship.” But then I’m not married so my vantage point is different. A nebulous friendship with a married guy doesn’t sound all that satisfying.
And I personally have experience with limerence for a married guy, there was an affair, he eventually left his wife and we got together in a serious LTR …boy did that infatuation die quickly when the barriers were removed and he was available. I don’t think that outcome is unusual. You can finally see then the incompatibility… obscured by the limerence.
Marcia,
„If it’s two people mutually infatuated who get together with no barriers … it’s not limerence.“
Well, but for some people, like Imho, me or Dr.L, it starts with exactly the same symptoms, it just ends in a happy ending. For other people, there is no obsessive limerent stuff happening at the beginning of a nevertheless also happy relationship. It’s the „two tribes“ thing Dr L is talking about. Some people experience the heady stuff, some not.
Like you or Justme, I‘ve decided just to count the dark stuff when having an SO, but one could also say that limerence ending in a mutual bonding is still limerence, but these people don’t need this site.
Mila
“Well, but for some people, like Imho, me or Dr.L, it starts with exactly the same symptoms, it just ends in a happy ending.”
Yeah but if it’s mutual and can move forward, I’d argue you don’t have the intense longing and hoping and waiting. Which the limerent then misinterprets as meaning more than it does.
Marcia,
actually I was in another relationship when I met SO. There was a lot of hoping, waiting, longing, dithering, bad feeling involved. Even after I broke up with the other guy and we got together, there was a lot of unbalanced limerent emotional stuff around, it settled maybe after one or two years.
But at that time I actually knew from the beginning that this is the one, that it’s all worth it, while in the LEs I term as LEs, there was a lot of cognitive dissonance because some part of me knew that it wasn’t worth it, maybe not with LO2, but even there I knew it was futile in the end.
I actually think we are in the some boat how we term limerence for ourselves, Marcia, I just think its not the definition everyone else shares.
I’ve had plenty of friendships with guys over the years, some of them very close, but don’t consider it any kind of affair unless romantic feelings are expressed and shared by both. I’ve never called any of my friendships even so much as an EA before this LO…..Biggest thing keeping it from being a PA, I think, is situations like today, when LO’s SO was there again. I think about how guilty I feel when she’s around, and remind myself that guilt would be 100 times worse if I gave in to a PA.
🎩 🌽,
“Snow has said before that ‘opposite sex’ (sorry for stereotype but you will get my drift) friendships in her COO can be much more intimate.”
Yes, COO style of friendship is intimate — 🆎 no PA intention, much richer than your luck-warm, largely superficial friendship — friend-zone, but not even close to limerence. Over there friendship as well as love (7 types combined) are action based (passed down by traditions). Majority of people are not so verbally communicative (it was politically dangerous); so friends and your ㊙️ admirers would go out their way to do things for you (meeting your specific/perceived needs) , hope you’ll understand and appreciate, and develop affections for them.
I actually “judge” others’ emotions/mind and characters based on their actions, not just words, not even purple proses — merely to express one’s own “narcissistic” sentiments, nothing altruistic for others. Some affectionate actions are loud, some subtle, requiring one’s intuition to 👁️ it.
“I think if there are similar-to-EA dynamics in a friendship between two single people, it is usually on the road to developing into a relationship.”
Not necessarily. LO5 (fwb) and another COO platonic admirer just could not go beyond as a good friend to me. The former’s career is made of literature, singer-song writer and played guitar in his own band, but hates travel (never been outside US); the latter, an AI pioneer, wrote purple proses, deep/melting voice fond of narrating poetry, preferred COO literature, pursued me very subtly after my divorce (typical of COO guys), but had BO 🙁…. No matter how hard I tried, I just could not develop that sky-rocketing glimmer or emotional attachment beyond fondness, something just missing — perhaps they do not truly understand my chameleon inside?
Platonic friendship, with or without SO, is very different from romantic affection after the Glimmer, which can be felt/sensed in one’s backbone or entire neural systems W/O reasons. In DrL’s words, it’s probably dopamine, which can be raised artificially (chemical substance) or naturally (meditation/exercise), or pure imagination/faith…
I still feel in the West, there is much lack of this solid platonic friendship, unfortunately, that is not glimmer driven limerence. Limerents’ sentiments poured in LwL often baffled me, although I came through LE that was no different from yours (collectively). Perhaps I am just not good in words to describe, complain or lament about it, or my T brain is stronger than I could perceive and realize.
Snow,
So are you saying that these “platonic, genuine friendships” (in COO) between members of the opposite sex very often don’t tip over into attraction or intent *for either person*? Because in the examples you gave, it still seems that one person ended up wanting more or having intent – just unreciprocated. I get what you’re saying (as much as I can) about gestures being more normal / needed in COO – but the gestures still seem to be with intent – as ‘hints’ if you like. If it is a purely platonic friendship, why the need to hint?
It is a really hard concept to wrap my head around, how a male and female (particularly if they are without SO) could be that close without one or both ending up wanting to take it further. In my life, I have developed three friendships with women like it that stood the test of time (one of them I had mild glimmer for very briefly, the others not at all). But that’s compared to a great many more where it seemed like friendship but then one or both of us caught glimmer and that changed the dynamic – that’s been for good (became SO) and for bad (couldn’t be friends anymore).
🚜,
“So are you saying that these “platonic, genuine friendships” (in COO) between members of the opposite sex very often don’t tip over into attraction or intent *for either person*?
Do you think that a platonic genuine friendship is easily formed, between same or opposite sexes? Without certain amount of attraction, fondness, admiration, mentality and sentiments in sync, genuine platonic friendship cannot be built, even if try your might!
In COO, initial liking, some sexual/spiritual attraction might play a key role, but not necessary. (For me, Glimmer takes within the first 5 seconds, for others, it comes later.) As soon as one opens the mouth to speak, listeners get a glimpse of the speaker’s mentality and sentimentality, regardless what subject is at hand. In theory (am I becoming a theorist?), without glimmer, interactions could develop into friendship, but not tip over to romance.
Also, in COO, morality is actually stronger in general than Christianity, one still gets punished by his work or public denunciation if having “illegitimate” PA; your definition of EA doesn’t really exist over there. In my knowledges, most people (by proportion) have more self-control in terms of dealing with addictions and Illegitimate PA.
Are you saying that after staying in good friendship, soon or later one or two partners are bound to tip over to romance zone? What about that 🧬 switch?
“Because in the examples you gave, it still seems that one person ended up wanting more or having intent – just unreciprocated.”
Maybe in my cases, I was never able to reciprocate if the glimmer never took place. All of them could not talk or express themselves well, let alone to understand what’s going on inside me. They’re all “shy” by the western standard. People’s ability to flowingly chat here amazes me to no end — you can talk to anyone with any of specific LE or non-LE related matters. No wonder you are a peacemaker or a great diplomat!
“It is a really hard concept to wrap my head around, how a male and female (particularly if they are without SO) could be that close without one or both ending up wanting to take it further. “
For me, it’s lacks of Glimmer, insufficient sync in mentality, sentimentality, spirituality, tastes in manner and senses (I have a half dog’s nose) . So looks alone would never be enough to draw my interests. Glimmer is also not just based on looks, there was always something more in it.
But I can’t speak for COO males, they are so reserved, I had little ideas what was going on in their head. And in COO, one would be laughed at if being romantic after 30, romance is reserved for young people under 30. Age matters beyond a western’s imagination!
🦜,
“Are you saying that after staying in good friendship, soon or later one or two partners are bound to tip over to romance zone? What about that 🧬 switch?”
I’m saying that I think it happens very often (more often than not). Like I say I have my 3 examples of platonic female friends (and these are real friends – nothing like claims I once made about MFF which I now accept were false rationalising of my LE – the longest of these three is 30 years, the other two 15+) that would prove me wrong if I said it *always* tips over into attraction. But they are three out of many others that started as friends and then tipped for one or both people.
I think partly there is a different construct of platonic friendship in your COO that I can never hope to understand (as much as I’ve tried by asking you) that is more separate from romance than in the West, where there is more of a grey middle zone. Also, that your glimmer occurs in seconds means that the two can feel quite separate for you. Other LwLers seem to have less difficulty than me in seeing platonic friends and glimmerers as two different groups. I tend to build towards glimmers (though not always – some including SO and LOs #2 and 3 were instant; with a previous SO we mutually glimmered but not for a year).
Anyway – you have 🇮🇹 exploring to do. When are you on the move again? And so don’t let 🚜’s T take more of your time for now. I am always interested in finding out about your COO -but without coming from, or at least living in, the culture, I can’t hope to intellectualise it!
🎩 🚜,
I found your topic is quite hard to talk about, because my view on COO is biased, since I got a lot of Western culture’s influence since young (from books) and experiences of living inside here (married and divorced one). So I often ended up doing things and handling matters, especially personal, outside of the boxes of both cultures, thus in a “no-man’s” land. Whatever I say here only represents my OWN opinions based on my OWN experiences. Please don’t think it’s common in COO. Also younger generation over there is really different due to the country’s “new money“。
“I think partly there is a different construct of platonic friendship in your COO that I can never hope to understand (as much as I’ve tried by asking you) that is more separate from romance than in the West, where there is more of a grey middle zone.”
In COO, most platonic friendship is also between same sex, but a few opposite sex. In the latter, gender/sex is not in the center of the focus, but the connection of two minds, two spirits, and enough emotional attraction without Glimmer involved. Mostly those take place between classmates from K-college, also co-workers. I also mentioned, the culture stresses steady, substantial friendship since ancient times, more than romance, often seen as “mad passion” or “lost a soul” or “out of control” for the time being.
Let’s say when I speak with you or other members, I focus on your points and arguments, your gender, age, and other social “facts” is rarely in my mind; you could be a male, female, or bi-sexual, old or young, millionaire or office assistants, whatever. The importance is whether two minds/spirits could communicate and comprehend each other in certain degree of harmony, without too much explanations (one issue I had with my SO — constantly explaining, we were very different but fell in love head over toes).
COO sense of platonic friendship is somewhat like that of Aristotle, camaraderie, fondness, harmonious co-existence with characteristic differences, sincere care for each other — both mental and physical being yet not into personal territory… These can be achieved without that pair-bonding drive, with limited talks in depth and width (not as much as here), and concrete actions (like what Adam did to his LO, just a cup of coffee constantly), valued much, much more than words over there.
Also, over there, romance or intimate relations are used to be taboo topic, which are only whispered behind your back. So friendship needs are higher and more difficult to build and sustain than pair-bonding drive; friendship involves one’s mind and spirit, not just “went off track” emotions and bodily needs. I observed how my parents’ generation built and sustained their lasting friendship — almost unbreakable.
“Also, that your glimmer occurs in seconds means that the two can feel quite separate for you. “
Yes, very true in my cases, I don’t know why; most of “other side” was not so. Also, by comparison, I was much more “alive” and outgoing while mingling with others since I dreamed to have very close friends since little (lonely single child). To me, people themselves — not what their “facts” are most valuable.
Yet, I can sense people’s inside without words to describe (like you see a painting or listen to a piece of music); some would immediately grab my attention or lose their “chance” to be friend with me. Like recently, a new COO teacher, who’s so eager to know me — looking a Westerner in her eyes, but I instantly disliked her flattery, and had to tactfully discontinue her texting without hurting her. I don’t take “empty” compliments/flattery well, praising appropriately is an art.
Other side can feel my indifference in talking with me, obvious or subtle. Wise, educated/sophisticated folks habitually talk much less but observe a lot (compared to the West). Who wants to deal with a woman (or men) whose mind or heart is not with them? So they refrain from expressing their feelings for me, if having any, but would inevitably show in their eyes, gestures, or small kind deeds. I would take care of appreciating their “kindness”, without letting their eyes “invading” mine.
“I tend to build towards glimmers”
Who would not ⁉️ But glimmers come and go with one’s outer eyes; it’s not all about friendship but more of lust, right? It leads to a potential to build friendship for sure. So if Glimmer doesn’t exist, we should just walk away, even if that person might be worthy of our trustable, platonic friendship? None of us here has a face here for glimmer, but do we have a certain amount of friendship, or only stranger ghost-ship? If given a chance, do you wish to know some of us in reality? I certainly do! I’ve received so much of your collective wisdom and insightful assistance that I’d hope to thank you in person.
Well, I’ve been an unrealistic dreamer, so my ideas and my ways don’t quite fit in the cultural norms in both worlds; I ended up being with myself or with a bunch of fellow suffering 👻 👻 👻 here, which is fine. To EXPECT anything from outside one’s control ONLY brings one misery of big or small — the fundamentals of Stoicism. But one still needs to try/do one’s best to make a meaningful existence for oneself — Sartre.
I hope I’ve managed to answer your questions.
It’s raining here, I’m pondering over where to get lost again… Have a great day!
The weather here is fickle like a typical LO — the rain stopped not only in Florence but in Pisa (with a bit ☀️ In an hour!)
So I jumped out of the bed after the last post here and am now sitting on the train to Pisa, after all! 😀
Talking about luck and non —expectations! (I was planning to do my overdue work in bed… )
I need a cup of expresso before I trip my steps again!
🦜,
Nice spontaneity to just hop on the train when the sun came out! I hope it stays fair for you in Pisa.
And yes – have a breath, a coffee, watch the world go by, and don’t do yourself any more bodily harm!
I see what you’re saying that you approach both COO and Western ways from something of a no-man’s land / nest in the middle. I’ll think over all you’ve said about that, and answers to my points, before responding any more to them.
Have a great day too!
I can’t get a ticket to climb the Tower before my returning train, so I’m on the ancient walking wall of the city , 3km. Not as long as the Great Wall, but still nice, because only a handful people here.
https://imgur.com/a/u4Bowrd — the Leaning tower
https://imgur.com/a/nsesScf — finally a walking wall!
There is Lilic trees along the wall, 🆎 intoxicating, with birds going limerence all around!
Please allow me to be narcissistic again — after some adversities (prerequisite), I’m more than often a lucky bird and I bring a sunshine to wherever I fly to…
look at the sky! (All the way Until the evening); tomorrow, Venice will be cloudy, not rain anymore!
I finally asked an Italian tourist to take a picture of me with the Tower as today’s celebration. But I can’t show it to you… otherwise I won’t know whom you will speak to— a 👻 mind/spirit or a human face… 😊 (grandiose bluffing here! )
🎩 🌽,
“I see what you’re saying that you approach both COO and Western ways from something of a no-man’s land / nest in the middle”
I cannot help it! If you have immersed into two cultures in body, mind, and soul (not as a tourist and temporary student ) you’ll face cultural conflicts and challenges, particularly in arena of relationships.
Based on my own limited observation and experiences, I have very biased narrow statements here:
1. In the west, romance is over emphasized, too many lovey-l dramatic words but not enough genuine giving love in action. In COO, lack of romance, lack of verbal communication (you have to guess what’s going on) but too much “vague” giving that can be taken just as kindness instead of romantic gestures.
2. In COO, love and friendship are like two arms of one person, they go together hand in hand. There can be friendship without romantic live, but not other way around. Romance with friendship won’t survive let alone thrive. In the West, many believe and pursue this “love conquers all” romance then find out it can not be.
3. In romance, one has sky-rocketing interest embedded — pair bonding, one wants to, is driven to get that beyond sky pleasure; in friendship in COO, one tends to give first and then may or May not take, it’s more altruistic; the other side does the same simultaneously (otherwise, no mutual friendship). No physical intimacy is involved but mind and spirit and characters.
4, when I fell in crush/limerence, my system is usually in “agitation” on a cellular level, fluctuating upon waking up. When I am in solid friendship, I feel this settlement in the chest whenever the said friend comes into mind. I think the unconscious knows or believes these friends will be there whether I’m in frequent touch with them or not. With LO, you want to see them all the time and worry about losing their affection; with friends, you don’t need to tell them what brand shoes you’re buying. And you know they are and will be there should you run them for help or sharing, realistic or psychological. You care for their well-being without trying to get anything back, aside from friendship itself, they do the same thing to you.
It sounds like I value a solid friends more than a LO. Of course I’d hope a great friendship can turn to romance, that I can’t control that idiot glimmer, which has its own eyes! 😍 no rationality works there….
No time to spell check, need to get off the train.
With a previous LO, I thought I’d found that kind of Aristotle-style platonic friendship, but while I gave and gave, he withdrew and turned out to have narcissistic traits. It seemed like he was just using me.
SL,
Then you drop him after three trails. “Give and take” has to be a two-way traffic, and it’s volunteer — giving without being asked.
I had a lot of COO Friends did to me, none of them was even remotely my LO, I might be their mate-candidate, they never expressed directly, except one proposed. I gave back whoever I could : my time, talks, cooking, caring. But strictly no romance. None of them ever touched my hand.
I never saw experienced friendship like that here, with men or women.
Here is even better than reality, since we are ghosts to each other, no realistic self-interests related/involved. We come here to solve one specific mental/emotional/psychological issue.
❄️,
Great 📷 of the tower through the 🌴!
I have noticed you don’t take flattery that you don’t feel is sincere or merited, well! I get it and am like it myself, along with several 👻 👻 here.
Re 👻 friendships vs real friendships – there is a counterbalance, as we’ve discussed before, between us only having the <10% meaning that comes through words, and the fact we all share such intimate inner stuff that we can't share elsewhere.
Often I feel I can intuit much more from 👻👻👻's words about what their character is like – never close to a full picture of course, but enough to think "yeah, we'd get along well in real life". Yet you said when you put it to the test with another online group, it didn't really pan out like that, so who knows? To find out, we need DrL to fund an all expenses trip with a free time turner included for those of us with SOs!
I think just having the knowledge we (collective) have about each other would be a great starting point, were 'the Amoor Gang' to one day meet. Just in the way I can get acceptance from people here (you included, and very high up the list – that's a very sincere flattery by the way 🙂) for all I've been through the last two years is a big thing. You all 'get it', as much as is possible given the individual differences, because we all have a common issue / experience to some extent. I feel genuine 'milk of human kindness' in very different ways from lots of LwLers and in a way that kind of can't be fake, or why would they spend the time writing it?
And yes, a good friendship is priceless, and that's a good distinction you made between the anxiety first thing in the morning of an LE, and the certainty and warmth associated with a good friendship. I have been with really good long term friends today and last weekend and it has given me a real lift. It is just 'easy', which is much needed.
I do understand the difference from friendship to glimmer. It is just getting harder in the West to form those friendships to start with – much harder for people half my age or below, than it was when I was their age – as everything and everyone is so rushed and instantaneous. I imagine it may be even harder again where you live than where I do.
And I think, compared to your take on COO where more is unsaid and left to guesswork, not hitting the uncertain 'tipping point' where romance feels a possibility is a big challenge in Western M-F friendships (see my well publicised example, but that may be colouring my lens).
You mentioned Adam and his coffee/cake gestures. Adam has said before that he felt little to no pair bonding drive with his LO, so his coffees/cakes could be argued to be simply gestures of strong friendship towards her. But yet he describes that situation as limerence. And it does seem to have, from what we've been told, many of the person addiction features of limerence.
Other LwLers too say they feel limerence without a strong pair-bonding drive, or at least that that drive is far secondary to the emotional connection.
It's complicated stuff, right?! You have said it before, but we can't rationalise it when so much is in the 'mystery' arena and the N/S dimension.
Happy onward travels 🛶
🎩 🌽,
“Great 📷 of the tower through the 🌴!”
Again it’s a surprise! I could not climb the tower and did not want to see inside of huge duomo, so the only thing caught my eyes are those old, high walls, on which a handful people were walking; I thought it was short. Once on the top, I realized that from some angles, one must be able to see the leaning tower up high (on the ground, so many noisy tourists surrounding the tower, and there is not single tree around)
Voila! When I got the spot (less than 10 meters long), the sun came out and only 6 tourists were taking pictures. Later, I saw some typical Tuscany housing right below the wall, and huge fruiting 🍋 trees along the walls (never seen one before)… it’s a breathing and fruiting museum! I felt very lucky again about my “bad luck” — we all have been on tops of skylines to see some cities from high — to high, but rarely walked on ancient walls in well preserved condition in an ancient town!
“I have noticed you don’t take flattery that you don’t feel is sincere or merited, well! I get it and am like it myself, along with several 👻 👻 here.”
By definition, flattery is insincere or insubstantial (COO is much worse, due to power hierarchy). I have permanent callus of flattery in my ears, and is repulsed by them most of my adult life! When getting flattery — even meant well by givers (who obviously don’t know how to tastefully compliment with deserved merits or who like/need flattery themselves), I genuinely felt being stalked while my posts were barraged by flashy and empty flattery! (you could not see how I wanted to punch ipad several times besides rolling my eyes 🙄)
If not for obeying DrL’s rules — not commenting on other posters’ characters, I would have bellowed and verbally 🔫! At one point, I silently prayed that some 👻 knights could magically jump out to save “besieged” 🍅 , then Athena heard my prayer and sent one….
I see you and some other 👻 only occasionally compliment on deserved merits of posts, and mostly focus on discussions, on points, on possible, concrete solutions, for our shared LE pains on hands that urgently needs to be dissolved, which by nature, could take anywhere from 2 — 50 years❗️
“Re 👻 friendships vs real friendships”
It’s from inside out vs. outside in friendship. In the former, it is less contaminated by exterior facts and your own five senses (more for Glimmer). One gets to know speakers’ inner essences (fairly fast), assuming that words spoken are authentically represent their true mind and spirit of the time (they change and evolve, of course). In this scenario, friendship or connection built is “pure” platonic and substantial, IMO. 🧬 drives are denied to be activated.
In the latter, physical and social conditions get in the way of knowing or bonding with someone (those dating apps or hookups in social scenes). We are ALL “biased” in this, it’s a human nature. Just look how uneducated, old, poor, and very common looking people are retreated in reality (the world wide)! They may get charitable assistances, but Aristotle’s friendship (a bit lofty) and Paris’ lust intensity for Helen of Troy?
“– there is a counterbalance, as we’ve discussed before, between us only having the <10% meaning that comes through words,”
That’s Wittgenstein’s dilemma — same words, especially adjectives, mean different things in different listeners’ ears (due to culture and personality differences), and due to that boundless, fantastic yet dangerous imagination/illusions. Even if our definitions of key words are in sync for sake of discussion, that imagination derived from words could be far apart as two shores of the Pacific. Then our knowledge of the speaker’s physical being could be off to the Jupiter; imagination is always better than reality, helplessly attending to our wishful thinking or dreams. But for the LwL’s main purpose, this scenario should not matter much. It’s not a dating site.
“the fact we all share such intimate inner stuff that we can't share elsewhere.”
There is saying in both worlds: adversity shared and battled with builds the strongest friendship anywhere in the world, eg. in wars, in dire lucks, in physical and mental sufferings… and in limerence. Even in “peaceful” time, one measuring stick for true friendship is whether you can show your worst vulnerability without fears of being judged or abandoned. That’s why you might feel safer and closer to some ghosts here than your reality friends (with all those morality codes). How many of you could speak honestly with your valued SO about LE? the quality of the friendship with him/her?
“Often I feel I can intuit much more from 👻👻👻's words about what their character is like – never close to a full picture of course, but enough to think "yeah, we'd get along well in real life".”
I agree with you on this, even other side is missing a half👃 or contrived a passage in a whole moon cycle! But we live all over the world, how “get along well in real life”could materialize?
“Yet you said when you put it to the test with another online group, it didn't really pan out like that, so who knows?”
I tried to analyze why it happened so disappointedly every single time. There are 3 possible reasons I could come up with: 1. my imagination was the way off margins, and I underestimated the knowledge of my 5 senses (Unconscious and 🧬 drive is involved). 2. words can be contrived and fabricated, since chats were not instant. So what I read was not authentic inside of them. 3. many (more guys) like to flatter (women) or to be agreeable, instead of speaking their disagreeing/disputable mind.
So When I met them, they didn’t “match” their words or my imagination of the time. One even suggested we get a room in a hotel, after touring me around a beach for a couple of hours, my jaw almost dropped 😱(I didn’t even like his showy self online; he said he looked like Bowie, but quite flattery, repulsive to my eyes!)
“To find out, we need DrL to fund an all expenses trip with a free time turner included for those of us with SOs!”
That’s a high order for DrL’s❗️I’m not sure it’s his responsibility for funding. He’s done tremendously for this site.
“I think just having the knowledge we (collective) have about each other would be a great starting point, were 'the Amoor Gang' to one day meet. “
Have knowledge of a 👻 based on our 5 senses, yes! But you just failed to 🤝 🍨 when she’s around your corner. 🙄 Come to my town, you’d be treated as my guest of honor, I promise, even if you have a Hunchback of Nortre Dame ‼️
“Just in the way I can get acceptance from people here (you included, and very high up the list – that's a very sincere flattery by the way 🙂) for all I've been through the last two years is a big thing.”
Oh dear, try to use the word, “compliment”, (not “flattery”), Thank you for such a praise, you passed the test of my ⚔️ pointing at your friendship with MFF, so now I have to put up with you for the rest of my life, even if you’re missing the whole nose! 🙄
“You all 'get it', as much as is possible given the individual differences, because we all have a common issue / experience to some extent. “
We’re unchosen soldiers thrusted in the same war ditch, our common enemy is LIMERENCE, but not LO, even LO is a doggy one!
“I feel genuine 'milk of human kindness' in very different ways from lots of LwLers and in a way that kind of can't be fake, or why would they spend the time writing it?”
😳I know you’re a good farmer, but would you please refrain from the word “milk”, which instantly paints a picture of mother nursing baby (Adam might like it, Marcia may punch your nose if you have any left!). Not sure if my motive of being here is totally altruistic — as an educator, preaching energizes or delights my narcissistic, showy nature. If you get something useful out of it, then be my audience.
“I do understand the difference from friendship to glimmer. It is just getting harder in the West… I imagine it may be even harder again where you live than where I do.”
You never wonder why I have spent so much time here, while I didn’t need much specific help tips for my LE? (I’m always “righteous” in dealing with my own affairs 😎, but I sideline learnt many “unsolicited lessons” from what some posters have said or lemenated) although I didn’t reflect on them “publicly” here.
“And I think, compared to your take on COO where more is unsaid and left to guesswork, not hitting the uncertain 'tipping point' where romance feels a possibility is a big challenge in Western M-F friendships”
We Asians grew up in subtitles in interactions with others of all kinds and pay high attention to the concept of “save face”, “keep face”, and “lose face”. Rejection even on friendship makes one “lose face” internally, let alone romance. Most of the time, both sides know pretty accurately what others mean if they bring you a watermelon (not cupcakes), or awkwardly talk nonsenses with you, or ask you out to casually try snack/ lunch together. If you accept, then it’s a Yes, if you decline with “legitimate” excuses, then it’s No. (Or you don’t answer their text promptly), The thumb of rule is Not to make both sides “loses face”, even if you dislike them.
“You mentioned Adam and his coffee/cake gestures. Adam has said before that he felt little to no pair bonding drive with his LO, so his coffees/cakes could be argued to be simply gestures of strong friendship towards her”
Really? Did he regularly bring other coworkers coffee/cake? What’s on his facial expression as his co-worker joked? Pair-bonding drive is not always present or conscious, since our LE neurons of whole body was on🔥, it could even temporarily suppress that 🧬 drive. I’ve brought xLO tons of COO exotic snacks, I knew what I was doing and why. The motive of “giving” came from LE desire to see LO with any excuses (I seriously played a cultural dumb 🤯 or ESL pumpkin 🎃 many times just to get an legitimate reason to talk with him in person. Earlier in LE his eyes would be lit up immediately — a Sensor got his dopamine hit!)
“Other LwLers too say they feel limerence without a strong pair-bonding drive, or at least that that drive is far secondary to the emotional connection.”
Glimmer is more pair-bonding drive related and takes place on a subconscious level; but once one slips into LE with all its 🔥 addictive feathers, that 🧬 drive becomes secondary. It IS activated with this LO, but we may not have realized or even felt it while shakily standing in front of LO. The desire for emotional/mental connections is higher goal of authentic Limerents, even if they still check out their LO’s butt.
“It's complicated stuff, right?! You have said it before, but we can't rationalise it when so much is in the 'mystery' arena and the N/S dimension.”
Can the word “complicated” sufficient to describe its mystery? No one has figured out this mystery throughout the history, who are we to change the history? We’re only a bunch of victims of our own limerence, if we haven’t used our LE to produce or invent some masterpieces like what Dante or Berlioz or Goethe ACHIEVED in their LE with their artistic talents!
I’m seated on the train to Venice. Gosh, the next loudest touring groups are Americans! 🙈
@Mila – “For me, I only count unhappy limerence where I, as you say, never wanted to leave my SO, but that’s my personal definition.”
I agree entirely. All of my LEs whilst with my SO, only once did I think I might want to leave. I actually didn’t want to at all. But all of my LEs have been exactly what you describe. A dreadful longing for someone whilst being firmly rooted to SO. Certainly the case this time around too.
Hi all. What is COO?
Hi JustMe,
COO=Country/Culture Of Origin
All the best!
Thank you @Bewitched ☺️x
Hi Norma,
Do you want to talk to us about your kids? What happened?
Or maybe you did already and there is somewhere we can look it up?
I’m very sorry for you. About your LO loss my wise friend say something along the lines of “when something doesn’t workout, sometimes it’s because it’s not for you, but there is something beside that is just for you”
(Sorry for the poor translation it went through multiple languages, I think it’s a similar idea as “when god closes a door he opens a window”)
In any case, there is still a ton of stuff that is for you in life.
I wish you the best
To S.anon: Thank you for your comments. One by one, each of my kids moved out of state and cut off contact with me. It wasn’t for any particular reason that I can discern. We never had a big family blow-up. It has been going on for many years and the pain is not fresh anymore, more of a constant dull ache. I have learned to deal, but this issue with my sweet neighbors got me feeling a little weepy.
Also the LE does not help. I made the mistake of discussing my kids with LO once. As a man who has never had children, LO did not know how to be helpful. He said some silly things that made me feel worse.
I have to be careful who I discuss this with, because even well-meaning people make things worse.
@norma
I have to say, your comment about being careful who you speak to is so true. I have seen that in my own life. Even though this is an anonymous space, I’ve found it to be a very good place to share.
I think what Marcia said is so true – these big losses pave the way for limerence. I see sharing them as part and parcel with trying to move on from an LO/LE. I don’t see it as separate…for me it helps to paint the whole picture, even if I’ve done it a little bit at a time.
I understand that kind of family dynamic. I have it in my own family, unfortunately…(though mine is a lot smaller than yours!)
@Norma D,
I fell into limerence after a relationship I was in for a number of years fell apart. I then tried to replace her with someone else that ended up falling flat on its face, right out the gate. It was also during this time things with my Daughter were really getting toxic, due to my divorce from her mother, years before. To make matters all the more worse, during this time my Father has succumbed to Parkinsons disease. Which if you know anything about that, is also like watching a sad movie that won’t ever end.
Then searching around for any little breadcrumb that might appease me, I had a super attractive co-worker that I’d been seeing around the office for about 6 months. Never considering her much more than just eye candy, I caught her eye one day and eye contact between us got intense. Then she smiled at me.
It was that smile that I considered the limerence meteorite that began everything and my descent into living hell. I swear I’ve never been the same since. It was anticlimactic and an experience in ultimate depression, I wouldn’t wish upon anyone..
Trying to live purposefully and get out of the LE, I met another Co-Worker who I thought was going to be a super positive force, has now unfortunately let me down in seemingly un-dramatic fashion. Which has nonetheless brought me back into a sad and morbid place again, where all I do is cry and mope. Your statement about being careful who you have discussions with about certain matters couldn’t be more true..
I’m a 54 year old male, in love with Women half my age. And I am a poster-limerence example of what mid-life crisis is, at peak absolute worst case scenario.
I swear if there is any one damn sad thing left in this Universe that is still out there, it is definitely going to find me and land right on my doorstep..
To MJ: What you have described is precisely why I was not even looking for a romance. I am over 70 and in poor health. I don’t need or want a romance. Why I suddenly fell for my hot gay neighbor is a mystery. We are friendly, but the relationship is unsatisfying, partly because we actually don’t have much in common and don’t understand each other very well.
When this limerence finally goes away, I hope it never happens to me again.
I am trying to reply to the posters above who were discussing the issue of whether or not it’s possible to come out of a LE with less baggage than they went in with.
Each of us can only speak for ourselves. I will say that this current relationship has definitely given me MORE baggage, including, but not limited to, an aversion to anything that reminds me of LO. This makes me sad, because it just makes my world smaller.
However, if someone said that they had less baggage, I would have no reason to question or dispute that. I only know what I know.
To Marcia: I did not know that about Gloria Swanson. I did know that Carol Burnett had a lot of fun with the character, who she spoofed on her comedy show from time to time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKfHuLvY4yU
MJ – I had spotted similarities between us the other day. Having read this post I now know it. I am also a 54 year old man. I fell hopelessly and destructively in love with a 40 year old. The pain, the longing, the abject hopelessness of being without her is something I’m still working through.
I can’t remember if I have replied to you before or not. Messages just get lost into the abyss here and I forget who I am less familiar with. I do believe I also read some similarities in our situations. Forgive me for not remembering or getting back to you. Often I am overwhelmed emotionally. This site has been helpful but hard to make time for during my work week. I try to get back here when I can.
Recently I had a falling-out with my work Lady Friend and it was a sad week without her company. Like LO, she is 30. I liked her because she made me forget about LO and all the senselessness that came with it. However, I feel like some of those limerent tendencies for LF bleeded over from LO and I’m back all up in my feelings and in a dark, emotional place. Longing, hoping, waiting, missing.
Good God this sadness never ends but like you I’m working through it.. Trying to I should say..
Hi MJ. Don’t worry, it can be difficult to navigate these chats.
Your situation sounds so difficult; I really feel for you. Do keep me posted. I’m happy to offer what support I can.
You are correct in that the longing and emptiness are crippling. I feel like part of me has died, the grief is immense.
We both know that better days are waiting. My wish is that they arrive soon for you.
Thank you @Justme
I appreciate your words and support. It is rather hard right now but I’m thinking of ways to maybe talk to her again at some point and see how she is. Afterall, she did break the LC first so it causes me to wonder. I’d like to make up, just so we can be work buds again. Maybe.
Hope things get better for you soon too. Keep in touch and good luck with SO while you deal..
Walking in Museum for an hours is more tiring than hiking 10 km in one short! Lack of fresh air is a major cause.
Japanese tour group carry the most humble demure, Chinese showy, loud and a bit insolent, Korean is in between. They are not difficult to distinguish.
Didn’t know that the great God Pan likes both nymphs and Shepards —
https://imgur.com/a/GpeC8eb
https://imgur.com/a/Eyny2LK
https://imgur.com/a/rjRNW7u
https://imgur.com/a/DziWTAt
https://imgur.com/a/Yjquk9K
https://imgur.com/a/xSGbEe1
https://imgur.com/a/sS6Igtg
Not sure why Pan and Aphrodite were not uploaded — too much of trouble makers?
Apollo is allowed to be public naked in the app, but not Pan, Daphne, Aphrodite and Cupid in marbles!
The Medici’s wealthy possession has killed my swollen knee and purple toe. I’m sitting on a stone bench covered with dried birds’ dropping, near “fountain of tiny birds” and “fountain of little snout”, listening to tiny birds crisply singing their life under warm and bright sunshine…. it’s heavenly!
Open at your own peril — https://imgur.com/a/bT8AAvu
A brand of Eastern Phoenix — https://imgur.com/a/BXLnDNt
A picture speaks thousand words —
https://imgur.com/a/Ms9tJ9T — virtue and vice
https://imgur.com/a/8jOxR9f — Fortune
https://imgur.com/a/wSFJDBU — patience
https://imgur.com/a/arYnJe7 — Roman Charity
https://imgur.com/a/Uzh8u8w — the limerence maker
https://imgur.com/a/aqsniH0 — a famous bathroom
https://imgur.com/a/rPeBuqd — the Great Pan with Daphne
https://imgur.com/a/zquZauj — Venus with her best lover!
I don’t understand, is status of Pan forbidden in Italy? So absurd!
https://imgur.com/a/VH6AtA9 — Pan and Daphne
Sorry about the blocked images I tired to upload several times.
Reflections
Ameen Rihani
1876 –1940
I walked along the countryside
At eventide,
And everywhere
The road was fair
With moons of water here and there,
Into whose heart the grasses spied.
And suddenly upon them shone
The light of the City’s eye,
Reflected from a bulb on high.
Which made them and their shadow one,
Nay, made each moon
A mirror seem
To serve the dream
Of tender blades in bending grace a-swoon.
I walked into the night,
And every abode
Beyond the dark, deserted road
Was a prattle of light.
And I thought of the Eye Unseen
Which sheds its charitable sheen,
Not on our goal,
But on the by-ways of the Soul.
******
In this moonless full-moon light, here is a Proustian moonlight to shine in the sky —
“Yesterday evening, I peered out of the kitchen window and thought I saw a fire in my backyard. I started panicking. What could have possibly caught fire? A palm tree? Some fencing? Then I looked closer – nothing was on fire. The ripple of coloured light that I mistook for fire was moonlight reflecting off the swimming pool.“
🐦🔥
On Self-Knowledge
Kahlil Gibran
1883 –1931
And a man said, Speak to us of Self-Knowledge.
And he answered, saying:
Your hearts know in silence the secrets of the days and the nights.
But your ears thirst for the sound of your heart’s knowledge.
You would know in words that which you have always known in thought.
You would touch with your fingers the naked body of your dreams.
And it is well you should.
The hidden well-spring of your soul must needs rise and run murmuring to the sea;
And the treasure of your infinite depths would be revealed to your eyes.
But let there be no scales to weigh your unknown treasure;
And seek not the depths of your knowledge with staff or sounding line.
For self is a sea boundless and measureless.
Say not, “I have found the truth,” but rather, “I have found a truth.”
Say not, “I have found the path of the soul.” Say rather, “I have met the soul walking upon my path.”
For the soul walks upon all paths.
The soul walks not upon a line, neither does it grow like a reed.
The soul unfolds itself, like a lotus of countless petals.
*****
My intuition is rarely wrong: I strongly sensed that my gf would not join me for her current “dire” situation, and it turns out to be true. She felt bad not being able to join me since I always visited her when in Europe (7 times in 🇫🇷 ). Well, c’est la vie, I’ll “Singin’ in the Rain” in Venice alone.
But I had the fantastic time in spotting Olympia gods and goddess in one of most beautiful ceilings in the world, at Medici palace (not the villa I went yesterday). Here is an interactive guide to share with you.
I recognized (in order) Aphrodite, Aries, Zeus, Hera, Athena, severed Medusa’s head… (not Apollo 🙁) without the guide. If my neck did not hurt, I’d stay longer just in that room to sort them all out…
https://www.palazzomediciriccardi.it/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/I-temi-della-volta-ENG_compressed.pdf
Enjoy spotting hundred of Olympia deities!
Three ladies make eternal plays in the Heaven and on the Earth —
https://imgur.com/a/vGHJ7Fw — Hera, (does she have a jealous look?)
https://imgur.com/a/gZynppH — Athena, (can’t be mistaken for another!)
https://imgur.com/a/sZk2n8u — who could resist Aphrodite? (Paris is not stupid!)
Of course, I got lost again in the center of the town in the rain!
After pondering half of the morning, I decided not to go PISA just for that one leaning tower. My toe still hurts, my sneakers were broken and still wet even after I hair-dryer blew them for an hour last night! My fit leather shoes hurt my swollen toe now, and I could not find a pair of rain boots in any stores!
But guess where I got lost into FORTUNATELY? The House of Dante who was born in Florence (online touring does not even mention his house in the oldest quarter)! — Our Limerents’ ancestor, the greatest Italian poet!
I felt extraordinarily to have lost in his house! It’s hidden in a tiny alley and most of tourists probably did not know except a bunch of Italian school kids with their teacher.
Then inside there is holographic film (15-20 mins), with a great Italian voice (English subtitle) narrating excepts of Dante’s Inferno, which was woven together so artistically and spiritually.
The lines that seemed to be devoted to Beatrice or a divine lady were so pure, sacred, emotionally touching that you could feel your whole being is rising upwards and hold no regret for such an unrequited love on earth — perhaps the purest, most spiritual form of Limerence? I sat in the tiny theater (6 seats) to watch it twice — the best corner than all Medici’s rooms in his palaces!
My good gracious, words can indeed inflame or transcend heart! I found my best spot in Florence!
Now, I’ll have to read Dante’s poems and inferno again. For the first time I think Italian sounds much more musical than French, which plucks your heart….
1. Dante’s house— https://imgur.com/a/WftCc9C
2. The museum constructed Dante’s image through Holography — https://imgur.com/a/P4YS2tO
3. A part of Dante’s time line — https://imgur.com/a/WfEOdCp
4. Popularity of Inferno (finished in 1304, 30 years after meeting Beatrice) — https://imgur.com/a/dORphrY
5. Dante’s bedroom — https://imgur.com/a/1oiArkC
Well done Snow for finding this place. Only possible because of your wandering and your open mind.
Spontaneous discoveries are the best kind, aren’t they?
Sorry to hear that your injuries are still bothering you – thank goodness the lower spine ‘prang’ that you had a few weeks ago was not reactivated. That would have been 😱
🅱️🧙,
Gosh, so many posts that I just saw this one.
Yes, my free wandering (better than hopping on some touristy spots) and loss of direction made me soooo happy this morning! that’s exactly stuff I want to watch and hear, the voice is deep and deeply touching. The holographic images are very vivid and moving; poetry can’t be read in any better ways!
Spontaneity with free and open spirit is the best in life! 🫴 with moi 🐞!
Thank you for remembering my right big toe that is still purple and swollen (still icing it), making my leather shocks a bit “unfit” now. But my other body parts are all fine, some God is watching me! (my lower back pain was not reactivated during the Big Fall). I still love copper stone narrow roads….
I’m leaving on Wednesday for rainy Venice.
Dear Snow,
You will carry this memory of Dante’s voice back home with you, along with the kindness of strangers who picked you up off the floor (was that on Rome?). Its really turning out to be quite a good trip, isnt it? Its great when people are not so jaded from.lots of tourists that they lose their humanity. I experienced this in Italy myself when I was there.
About what you said earlier, meeting in real life, that would be so great. Hopefully the “mystique” would not evaporate (I know your imagination is mostly better thn the real thing). I would be very happy to give a real life hug and a great big smile. But, in the meantime, here is a virtual one, from a friend keeping you company on your journey 🫂
My dear 🅱️ 🧙 – my constant companion,
You’re sweet and kind beyond belief! What are you made of⁉️
Yes, despite my big fall, I consider I’m very lucky so far, being helped so much by locals (I still remember that restaurant owner’s caring face in Florence when I just wanted to lie down on the cement floor with the spinning room), and lost in back alley treasure “island” that transcends all the reality…. That’s indeed my kind of foreign travel, without specific point-to-point plans and get lost anywhere and everywhere! I’m very grateful that you’re a faithful witness!
Next time I come to Europe for a longer period, I’ll inform you in advance and stop wherever you are just to have a lovely cup of giggly 🫚🫖 — my own brand! This is my promise to YOU and the entire community here. 🙏 (I always mean what I say or say what is true in my mind/heart; whatever I did not say here are my private affairs, you understand…. )
Have a lovely, restful night! 🌙
Anyone’s imagination is better than reality, that’s the BEAUTY and POWER of imagination, which sometimes can conquer Napoleon’s war in “War and Peace” and lift up one’s spirit far above the “inferno” of reality….
Oh, that Italian Male’s voice narrating Dante’s soul-lifting love pulses… It’s an eternal beauty of an ideal, spiritual Limerence!…
I am still slowly trying to adjust to life without my LO. It’s about repeating the mantra to myself, that it wasn’t me she cared about, it was what I gave her. But she had become such a huge part of my daily existence, that the void is endless. I’m currently on a weekend away with SO and friends. But LO is on my mind and in my heart.
Hi Justme, weekend away! Sounds fun, try to have fun. I know it’s hard to feel any form of happiness when in this state. Maybe try to let the thoughts of LO flow by/ through you, if that makes sense. Don’t be fighting yourself. Later today maybe think of three things that happened today that made you feel a little good or grateful, however small.
I remember this feeling all too well. It does get better with the passing of time, Justme. The periods of seconds between her appearances in your mind will turn to minutes and then to hours. It *will* happen even if it doesn’t feel like it yet.
Stick to your guns – no improvement to this can come from going back on anything, whereas the passage of time will heal.
Imho’s ideas for now sound great. Just think about anything you could do to distract your brain while you’re away – while not fighting the feelings, as that prolongs them.
Thank you both. IMHO – a mindfulness approach to thoughts of her is a really good idea. I won’t fight her when she appears. I’ll sit with it and notice it. The idea of appreciation is also good, thank you.
LaR. Thank you too. You are right: there can be no going back. I believe that it will get better. It always does.
This sums up perfectly how I’m feeling, particularly the second verse.
The Beatles: You’ve got to hide your love away.
https://youtu.be/V8nLraecPRY?si=lLzS5A0ehYEK3QmK
Sorry. Third verse.
Hi Justme,
I’m so sorry, I know that feeling. I’ve spent a good part of the christmas holidays with it, and most of the summer break last year… I dread the coming one, even if I’m getting better.
Something that works a little for me is try to wonder about the people that are with you and focus on them. You’re with friends this week end: how are they? Do you know what they like, what motivate them to get up, what’s a big strengh or little flaw you like about them? Missing LO makes us feel alone, but other people are amazing too and they’re around and supporting you.
Good luck!
Hi S.anon. Thanks for your reply. I’m sorry to hear of your suffering. We have had a lovely weekend, and although my anxiety and LO have never been far away, I have been able to relax. We are getting ready to go home and I am feeling very tense now.
I am reflecting on the fact that my LO is on leave from work for 2 weeks. This means that I would have heard very little from her anyway. Partly it makes me glad that nothing would be too different. The other part makes me sad as it confirms that what we each wanted was so far apart.
I hope you are well S anon and my thoughts are with you as you continue to recover.
JM,
Glad to hear you felt able to relax a bit in the end. I think I can now foresee the ‘longer work gaps’ getting progressively easier for me each time.
Even when I was much deeper in the weeds, I usually found that a longer gap got better after day 4-6.
When LO intrudes into your thoughts, what sort of thoughts are they now? I mainly get self-judgemental thoughts these days about how rapidly I cooled off the friendship level between us.
LaR The thoughts that come are still quite varied. When I am tempted to backtrack it is an urge to try to “explain”, which I know from Dr L, and from yourself and Mila in particular, is not the right thing to do, and I know would be futile.
Sometimes the thoughts are still guilt towards her, other times sadness that the LE didn’t go the way I “wanted” it to, other times I just wonder what she’s doing, thinking etc. Not sure if you can relate to those from your vantage point further down the road?
JM,
I have all sorts of intrusive thoughts but these days they are more retrospective. It is like my brain was hijacked and I know its healing process will be long, but I question what the hijacķed lim-brain thought. Stuff like:
– how did I let myself get in that deep for that long?
– did I lead her on? And did she lead me on or did I imagine that bit?
– how could I possibly think that the way I ‘pursued without pursuing’ was a good idea? or could last?
-(most of all) guilt at how I pulled the plug on a lot of it quite quickly – kind of ‘what must she think of me now?’, ‘have I let her down?’, ‘she will now know that the ‘friendship’ I offered wasn’t all genuine and lasting’.
None of them are that helpful for me to dwell on now. I can push any of them away much quicker and for longer than I could when I was in the epicentre. They are more like at the back of my mind than the front. And I can push the most-intrusive final one away by seeing that she also withdrew without a huge fight … so must either have ‘caught the wind’ or it had run its course for her too.
Like I say, I try not to dwell too hard. These thoughts pop in and out of my mind now rather than having permanent residence.
Hi JustMe,
Just wanted to let you know I’m thinking of you. I hope you survived the weekend. I’ve been thru a couple of those SO-heavy weekends, with the LO voice screaming in my head… ughhh
I hope you’re ok today, even if you are very low-energy, low-dopamine, crashing out. I was in that state last week and it was horrible. I am feeling more energized, in the past couple of days…
At some point, it will turn and you’ll stop wondering, or caring, what she thinks, or how she feels. It will fade. Mine is fading a bit. I do feel bad, I miss LO, and I miss him in my life. He was my friend. But I am not feeling as urgent around repairing anything.
For me, the urge to repair, the feeling of urgency around repairing, explaining, etc…now that I am a bit more removed (almost a month total NC)… I can see it as what it is (for me…can’t speak to anyone else here). It’s bargaining.
And now that I feel more rooted in myself, I can also see…I have my entire future in which to explain to LO. But not right now. Right now, I have to stay away, and continue to feel improved. It has to be about one person’s feelings…mine.
JMMOOOOOO!!!!!!! rah rah rah!!!!! I am thinking of you and all the kindness you have shown me, and others here!
big hugs,
csc
Csc. You have a wonderful habit of showing up at exactly the right time. I’m reading your post for the 4th or 5th time and all I can say is: yes. What you are describing is exactly where I am. I miss her, I miss what she brought. But it is becoming more tempered with the realisation that it was all about what she wanted, when, and how. And there shall be no crossing the line. My weekend away has taught me that I can be strong if I have enough distractions (purpose!), and although injury we’ll wake tomorrow feeling utterly despondent, I hope that the last week has begun to repair me a little. And yet…
It’s Rah Rah Rah for sure! A kind friend wants he to text him if I feel like reaching out to her. I’m really hoping I don’t.
Bless you, csc. I think of you often. I still look forward to when we can swap notes; when we are both at least as healed as we dan be.
Thoughts and hugs xx
JMMO
Not injury: I may
Mila
“But at that time I actually knew from the beginning that this is the one, that it’s all worth it, while in the LEs I term as LEs, there was a lot of cognitive dissonance because some part of me knew that it wasn’t worth it, ”
What was the difference? I think it takes a while to get to know someone and really see if you’re compatible. Hard enough to do in the haze of infatuation but if you add barriers or the other party taking a while to decide, for example, then it’s even more difficult because the feelings intensify.
I didn’t think I was going to end up permanently with my most recent LO (I knew enough to know we didn’t have enough in common and were very different people) but that didn’t stop me from thinking I was madly in love with him and he was denying me some big opportunity. When in reality it was just strong chemistry I should have ignored.
I’m a woman turning 40 in six months, and I think that’s why my limerence has been out of control these last few months. I’m married, usually pretty happily, but like many people, I have a “what if” guy from high school (who as far as I know is also in a committed relationship), and he’s been the subject of my limerence for basically the last twenty years (which is really embarrassing to admit, that I’ve never moved past high school emotionally, at least in this respect). Usually my limerence about him is a very idle, occasional guilty pleasure, but in the last few months, it’s gone insane, it’s all I think about. I think the reason is that I’m having major grief about turning 40 – in my limerence fantasies, we see each other again, have one last conversation, one last soul connection, and while nothing happens physically or romantically, he walks away with an impression of me as intelligent, successful, cool, beautiful. Especially beautiful. I’ve been pretty my whole life, but I’m well aware that most women over 40 aren’t considered particularly attractive by society at large, so I think I’m panicking because soon I’m going to “age out” of my limerence fantasy. Like, in two years if I still have this fantasy, I’ll have to admit that all he’ll see is a middle-aged lady, no one worth being impressed with at all, and like most men the women he’ll be interested in will be way younger. Has anyone dealt with this, with aging as a woman and realizing the object of their limerence would no longer find them desirable were they to ever meet again? The death of this limerence feels like a profound grief, and now I’m indulging in it 24/7 in an attempt to wring every last ounce of it while I still can. Any advice/understanding would be very helpful.
LOL, and reading the comments above from 54-year-old-men with 30-year-old LOs is only confirming to me that no man would be impressed/taken with a 40+-year-old woman.
Uh… @victoriaratliff
I am almost 50 and have felt my 40s were my most beautiful years, physically. I have yet to be in my 50s so who knows!
I hesitate to point this out but basing your entire opinion of “what men find attractive” on the stories of a few men on a blog– may not be accurate.
how do you feel now that you’ve shared your story and got some replies from other people who understand the pain of limerence?
Also, from my own life, yes, men can find women over 40, and even over 50, and beyond, attractive. I hope that helps to hear. Personally I have been asked out by guys in their late 30s more often than I’ve been asked out by men my own age….but even if that were not the case, TBH, your comment is borderline offensive to me. I understand you’re hurting but there’s no need to put women over 40 down to make your pain known.
People here are kind and happy to help…they are also considerate of one another. I am hoping you’ll understand where I’m coming from but as you are a decade younger, you may not….(Yet!) 😊
csc
I truly meant no offense – I myself think women over 40 are stunning! Plus, I personally do not give one single crap what anyone else looks like – I care about the person inside, and I hold myself to a physical standard I would never, ever apply to anyone else. It’s more this idea that seems to be out there that you “disappear at 40,” etc., which I’ve heard lots of women say about their own experiences turning 40, and I think that’s making me panic. Thank you for your response, for sharing your experience, and again, I apologize for any offense.
@VictoriaRatliff,
Hello and welcome to LWL.
This 54 year old male “prefers” Women under 35 but I am never opposed to 40 year olds either. The Woman I was seeing and crazy about prior to LE had turned 40 the year we started dating. (I was 49) I adored her. Everything about her. Infact I was probably too in love with her which is probably what killed it. Or at least a better effort on her part.. So do not believe all hope is lost. I can still be attracted to Women my own age. I happen to find Gwen Stefani super hot and she’s 55..
If my good friend and Sister Marcia from the forum here sees this post, I can almost guarantee she will give me $#!+ for posting anything positive about older Women..
But it’s ok. I know she loves me.. 😆😆
MJ,
“I know she loves me.. 😆😆”
We’ve been over this. I’m FOND of you, but I can’t LOVE you. You’re too old. 🙂
@Marcia,
Well in that case, you’re young enough for me then.. 😆😆
See what I mean @VictoriaRatliff? She’s craaazzeee for me..
🤣🤣
MJ,
“Well in that case, you’re young enough for me then.. 😆😆”
It takes two to tango, baby. It ain’t all what you want! 🙂 I’m like Leonardo DiCaprio. They hit a certain age, I get a new one. I get older but my men stay the same age. Like you, I prefer them UNDER 35. 🙂
On a serious note, Dr. L has an article in The Guardian. I feel a little possessive of him and this site. 🙂 I feel like we have been listening to cool underground band and now they are having a Top 40 hit and everybody’s claiming to be a fan. 🙂
@Marcia,
I’ll bet if I took away the gray hair, I might still pass for 35. Nobody thinks I look 54, so I must be doing something right.. 😆
I prefer things stay on the down-low here too, as sometimes the allure wears off when everyone wants to board the train. 😄
Then again, I’m sure the good Doctor has nothing but good intentions. So it looks as if we’ll have to share the love. 🙂
MJ,
“I’ll bet if I took away the gray hair, I might still pass for 35.”
Sure. 😀
“Then again, I’m sure the good Doctor has nothing but good intentions. So it looks as if we’ll have to share the love. 🙂”
I don’t like to share. #VeryGreedy 😀
I think you might have mixed “lust” with “limerence” which is not focused on physical appearance or sexual attraction only.
I’m definitely over 40 with crow’s feet climbing over my face; but my recent “crushed/limerent” ranged from 21 to 54. I don’t quite understand what they saw on my wrinkled face…. I only know I’m passionate about my work and sincere with people in general.
Nothing much we could do with our aging — a law of Nature, but we could cultivate our inner peace 🕊️ and subsequent grace 💮.
Human connection is a funny beast at any stage in our lives, fundamental to who we are, and Limerence is so much more than the two dimensional shallow connections of youth, albeit equally painful. Limerence is about ourselves, and about change, about gaps in our experience, it is about our expectations, it is about closing gaps, about loss, grief and fear associated with change. Change is a constant in our lives but we want to cling to a status quo. Or a perception of status quo.
Yes, Limerence is not about age, age differences and SMV (sexual market value). It is about human connection and it is also a ’comment’ on how we have lived and are living our lives. SMV has very little to do with real connection at an emotional level, though some need to have both to feel attraction.
Limerence is also about acceptance. And when Limerence fades, it can lead to more feelings of loss. This is a signal that we need to look at what gaps Limerence filled, at our unmet needs, that we shouldn’t live our lives on autopilot.
Thank you, everyone, for your responses. I want to clarify that in my limerence, I’m not lusting after this guy – he wasn’t attractive in high school, and from what I’ve gleaned from the small bits I can find of him online, he’s not particularly attractive now. And I don’t care, I never have, physical attraction has never been super important to me. But a huge part of my fantasy involves him finding me attractive? And I can’t imagine him (or honestly anyone) having any interest in me if he didn’t find me attractive? As I said in reply to a comment above, I hold myself to standards I don’t apply to other people in my life. I don’t know, I truly feel so arrested development. In my outer life I’m fairly successful, adult, have lots of friends, a good career, advanced degrees, own a home, a happy marriage, etc., but in my inner world, in the past year in particular, I’ve regressed to a teenager. The fact that I had cancer a few years back in my mid-30s probably didn’t help, that I gave up a year-plus of my life to chemo and treatment, probably triggered something in me that is desperate to get back to a time when I was young and everything seemed possible and cancer didn’t mare every corner of my life. It’s so odd – I’ve never have LE about anyone in my actual life, coworkers, friends, etc., only this one guy from twenty years ago. Perhaps it’s because that feels safe, it doesn’t feel like a betrayal to my SO like dreaming of someone who’s a part of my present life would. I truly haven’t seen this guy for twenty years, he’s not on social media, I sent him a message on LinkedIn once, which he replied to with polite indifference. This guy literally doesn’t care that I exist. And for all I know, he could have turned into a vile human in the intervening years! And yet the thought of seeing him one last time, learning about his life, him learning about my life, and then us going our separate ways, seems like it occupies about 95% of my waking thoughts lately.
Thank you, everyone, for your support and wisdom.
To Victoria:
I love your name. Big White Lotus fan; Parker Posey was my favorite actress from the third season.
I have tried and failed several times to compose a response to you. I was startled to see your comments about women over 40 not being attractive? If I understood you correctly?
I was very attractive to my SO during my forties. He is no longer with me. I have been divorced for years and am now 72. The reason I am posting here is because I have a bizarre, stupid crush on my 66 year old gay neighbor. Obviously there is no romance. But I have no issue about my attractiveness. LO likes me fine, he knows about my crush, and we’d probably be dating if he were straight.
You have a lot of years ahead of you and I hate to see you think you’re at the end of the road. Shoot, I gave birth to twins when I was 41. That’s YOUNG!!!
Hi Norma,
Love your username too!
I think part of the problem is that due to my cancer treatment I was tossed into menopause at 37, and now at 39 am just feeling like shit about myself, quite honestly. It has nothing to do with other women, and I realize now how insensitive my original comment sounded to any woman older than 40. It’s sort of like how an anorexic doesn’t walk around thinking other people are overweight, they just focus obsessively on their own weight. That’s how I feel about aging, or my looks right now, I don’t know. I just wish I was a decade younger and could have a do-over, could have my whole 30s ahead of me and do it right this time, and maybe not get cancer in the middle of them. And I wish I could have one more conversation with my LO, where I show him that I’m still youthful and vital and beautiful and smart and interesting.
To Victoria: I wish I knew what to say to you. I am guessing your hormones have really thrown you for a loop. I got breast cancer when I was 69. I had surgery, but I still feel attractive. As I said, LO has no problem with the way I look. I think I look fine for my age.
Hi Norma,
Breast cancer here too. On some meds that make life hard. I don’t doubt that you are bangin’ and your LO agrees. I think there’s something about getting breast cancer at a young age that does something to you – sitting in a chemo chair, trying not to go bald, while your friends are at bachelorette parties really makes you feel like you’ve aged decades ahead of them. Then you’re put on meds that put you into menopause while they are having babies. It’s like the reflection in the mirror is what I’m clinging to to convince myself I’m still a vital person, still young, and also for some reason this LO from two decades ago.
To Victoria: I think getting breast cancer at my age is much different from getting breast cancer at your age. My hair didn’t fall out, but I actually CUT it off because it’s so fine. My hair is the consistency of a baby’s hair and is unmanageable. I now have a buzz cut.
I have somehow learned to make peace with my lopsided breast and my dad’s haircut from the 1960s. But I do think it’s easier at an older age.
The only thing I can think of to tell you is that others do not see you as you see yourself.
@VictoriaRatliff
Thank you for replying. It seems we have something in common. I too am in medical menopause from (from age 46) due to breast cancer.
Although 10 years later than you in my situation, (it has been so intense, and I can only imagine having to grapple with it at 36) I had just gone through the pandemic, two years of that weird, sequestered life, only to find I had cancer and lose another year or two…it was hard.
I do understand. It is incredibly disorienting, not to mention isolating to go through meno so suddenly, and when our peers know *nothing* of what you are handling.
Turning 40 is difficult. I face some of the same, on my own timeline, turning 50. Almost exactly, since my menopause was at 46 and 50 is now looming. Beauty has always been my thing, as well. Though I have tried to fight that. I have tried to maintain my body. I am thin and in very good shape…I am asked out a lot. I feel beautiful. I have an SO who finds me beautiful. But, what brought me here was a 30 year old (M) LO. I’m 49. He was 30. He was giving the signs of being interested, eventually asking for plans etc (however, he also flaked out on those plans). It was very, very confusing. I began to hate my age. To fear my beauty was dying. I was going through hell, emotionally.
I am going to reply more later, if you share more, but I will say – from my own life – from within that —
Why do you hold yourself to different “standards”?
Has it ever occurred to you that your “standards” are, maybe not your own?
Are you hanging around with the right kind of people who can help you find new measures by which to feel your worth?
Are there any areas where you wish you were more accomplished — beauty aside. I’m not saying go immediately towards them, but I am curious to know.
You have a mind. And a body. And something else – a force within that is beyond both of those things. I’m not going to say “beauty fades” because it doesn’t. Beauty CHANGES. and you have to have an open mind to see it. But, you also have to work to open your mind to EXPERIENCE it. The world has so much to give you, Victoria — do not limit yourself, you have more to give. Physical beauty, to our “standards” in culture here….is narrow and limiting.
I encourage you. And I hope today you have only one or two hot flashes …I plan to have about 6! Sigh!
Ok I’m off to yoga. 🙂
csc
Victoria (lovely reference btw!), as a fellow 40-something woman, I can relate to how you feel! I really can. The hormones are going a little crazy, your mind is going a little crazy, everything feels so urgent: “I got to do it while I still have some of my looks!” 😉
But I’ll tell you something – men do not age well! Something happens to them around 45-50 and all of a sudden they are old men. (Sorry guys, but you’re probably used to my opinions by now. 😘 And it’s what’s inside that counts!)
So Victoria, I’ll bet you you’ve aged better than your LO. I just recently randomly ran into an old ex of mine (3 years older than me). I was by no means dolled up or at my best outwardly. But the way he looked at me, I could tell he thought I was youthful and beautiful and interesting and whatever else you said… So there! 😜
Hi csc – I’m so sorry you’ve also traveled the same road I have. Yes, I also did the two years of a pandemic straight into a year and a half of cancer. I feel like so much time was taken from me.
The weird thing is is that I personally have never valued my beauty all that much, it’s been a “nice to have,” but what’s been most important to me is my brain, my intellect. Unfortunately, I’m in a highly competitive, scholarly field, with advanced degrees, where success is low, criticism is high, and really have only ever been told where I’m lacking in that regard. I’ve labored for years and years over projects just to have the whole thing rejected, torn to shreds, but then I’d throw on a sundress, a little makeup, tussle my hair a bit, and literally the whole room would light up when I entered. I’ve never once gotten the validation or positive feedback in the area I’ve wanted it in, for my brain, but jeez having a pretty face and attractive body sure gave it to me. And I think the idea that I won’t even have that now is devastating to me. Trust me, I would trade my looks for success in my career field in an instant if I could.
Thank you again for your response.
Victoria,
Forgive me to hijack your conversation with CSC, I’m compelled to add a penny thought here, since I think I am working in a similar area, I’ve just survived a lymphoma during pandemic, and some male students had “drooled” in my classes…
“The weird thing is is that I personally have never valued my beauty all that much, it’s been a “nice to have,””
That’s a wise attitude to take and hold onto in terms of one’s attractive appearance. Beauty is given by chance, not something one has earned through efforts; therefore its easily received attention would not bring us sustained, substantial happiness and fulfillment. Its external validation only feeds one’s vanity and ego.
The worse, beauty could turn to a curse, if you are chased or “valued” only through your appearance, then you’re treated as an object, often “traded as a highly valuable” commodity in all cultures since the beginning of human history, and then trashed when age kicked in.
“but what’s been most important to me is my brain, my intellect. “
That’s a right aim! You want your intellect and knowledge to be valued, instead of merely physical appearance. I tried very hard in my life to chase knowledge and wisdom wishing to be taken seriously beyond my face and to weave solid, beautiful human connections, the kind CamilaGeorge talked about yesterday and today. But there was a huge mistake here: doing it for others’ validation, instead of one’s own fulfillment and esteem.
“Unfortunately, I’m in a highly competitive, scholarly field, with advanced degrees, where success is low, criticism is high, and really have only ever been told where I’m lacking in that regard. I’ve labored for years and years over projects just to have the whole thing rejected, torn to shreds”
I know too well what you’re talking about here, and understand its pressure; it’s your livelihood. However, no matter what endeavor we take, there is 50/50 chance of success and failure, it’s inevitable. If I were you, I’d study hard on the criticism received, and to see if there are merits in them and if there is room for improvement in that topic, or you need to change direction drastically. Otherwise, you are wasting your limited time and energy. Our life is very short.
“but then I’d throw on a sundress, a little makeup, tussle my hair a bit, and literally the whole room would light up when I entered. I’ve never once gotten the validation or positive feedback in the area I’ve wanted it in, for my brain, but jeez having a pretty face and attractive body sure gave it to me. “
I think you know fully well that validation on one’s brain can’t be replaced by flattery on one’s face, right? Did that ego gratification last long? Did you feel some human connections from those adoring eyes in “the whole room”? I would use such an attractiveness to engage all attention for their needed or chosen learning. Use it wisely for others’ benefits, not our own ego or vanity. Once you see some results, you’d feel lasting joys.
“And I think the idea that I won’t even have that now is devastating to me. “
Well, both men and women age (Trifles is right, men age worse!), there is little we could do against the nature. If we can’t accept this natural change, then we’d be indeed devastating every single day — no God of any sort can help us in this arena!! Do we want to live the rest of our lives mourning something inevitable?
“Trust me, I would trade my looks for success in my career field in an instant if I could.”
I might be completely wrong, but according to my intuitive senses here, even if you get the desired success in your career, you’d feel new “void” again, based on your current mental state — sorry for being so frank.
IMO, the issue of your unhappiness does not seem to lie in your sense of fading beauty, or in the rejection of your projects, or LO’s possible opinions over you; there is something more. You will have to figure out what it is; I certainly do not know.
(I’ve learned by experiences that academic successes could not bring me what I wanted (unaware at the time), I got depressed before I even took off my graduation gown from a Ivy League college, with two rewards in poetry and short fiction writing. Then I chased more academic achievements, which still could not fill a “hole” inside me — the unattended wounds of my cptsd.)
A good luck! 🧧
Hi Snow, thanks for your thoughtful response, and I’m sorry to hear you too have joined the C-club. I hope you are thriving now, at least health-wise.
“If I were you, I’d study hard on the criticism received, and to see if there are merits in them and if there is room for improvement in that topic, or you need to change direction drastically. Otherwise, you are wasting your limited time and energy. Our life is very short.”
Yes, I’m realizing that that’s where I’m at – either I start making headways in this field, or I have to pivot. The problem is that nothing lights me up in life like this field, or even gets close to it, and I have put great thought and energies into finding something else that could. I think one reason I’m delving deep into LE right now is because I’m pre-grieving the loss of everything I’ve wanted and worked for.
“I would use such an attractiveness to engage all attention for their needed or chosen learning. Use it wisely for others’ benefits, not our own ego or vanity. Once you see some results, you’d feel lasting joys.”
I very much do, or at least try to. When I’m in a room, I engage with people, ask them about themselves, express interest and curiosity and compassion, try to make them feel seen and listened to, if someone seems like they’re being left out or ignored I make an effort to include them. I adore getting to know people and am genuinely endlessly curious about their experiences and point of view and thoughts. I’m encouraging, a good mentor to younger colleagues, I protect them from bullshit when I can and give them a gentle shove in the right direction when needed. I don’t know if my beauty has anything to do with this, but I have made it a great point in life to try to do for others what wasn’t done for me, I don’t want anyone in my vicinity to ever feel ostracized or overlooked (unless they are like, treating other people terribly or something). The opportunities to engage with people like this, however, are few and far between, despite my best efforts to create more of them for myself.
“I might be completely wrong, but according to my intuitive senses here, even if you get the desired success in your career, you’d feel new “void” again, based on your current mental state — sorry for being so frank.”
I actually have to disagree with you here. I think my life and my internal well-being and sense of self would improve significantly if I could get a foothold in my chosen field. I don’t yearn for great accolades or to like, win a Noble Prize or anything. I just want the opportunity to do what it is I love to do. Of course I’d get restless once and awhile, I’d have to come up with new challenges for myself, and I’d have moments of self-doubt and worry about external opinions, but by and large I think I’d be content. I know this because I’ve had brief windows in life when things were going well in my field, and while of course life wasn’t all sunshine and rainbows, I was genuinely grateful and content and at peace with myself. I don’t know, I think people have genuine needs in life, Maslow’s hierarchy, etc., and those things generally and unfortunately have to be met through external conditions. I can’t create water from nothing to satisfy my physiological needs, for instance, nor can I provide myself with a feeling of social belonging, etc. If I could fill all these voids entirely on my own, I would.
I very much appreciate your taking the time to respond so kindly and thoughtfully.
Victoria,
“I hope you are thriving now, at least health-wise.”
I got lucky that my cancer cells were removed surgically before doctors even knew their existence and before they spread. Then it’s the slowest growing type, so hopefully that 1% recurrence would not take place soon. But there is no 100% guarantee. I keep regularly checkups with my oncologists (they’d never leave me alone.)
“I think one reason I’m delving deep into LE right now is because I’m pre-grieving the loss of everything I’ve wanted and worked for.”
That might well be, something out of our control. How are you preparing mentally if it’s going to happen? Your LE — one last time to sit down with your high school LO, is not going to help your dilemma.
“I very much do, or at least try to… The opportunities to engage with people like this, however, are few and far between, despite my best efforts to create more of them for myself.”
Hasn’t all these efforts made brought you some substantial, sustained joys? Not enough?
“I think my life and my internal well-being and sense of self would improve significantly if I could get a foothold in my chosen field.”
That has not happened, so you don’t know for sure. Is your relationship with SO also affected by the sense of “footless” professional ground?
“I don’t yearn for great accolades or to like, win a Noble Prize or anything. I just want the opportunity to do what it is I love to do.”
I understand and agree with you. I’m a 80% Stoic, and habitually prepare for possible worst… So if such external opportunity does not come along in your field (possible), how are you going to adjust your life accordingly, particularly mind and psychology?
“I don’t know, I think people have genuine needs in life, Maslow’s hierarchy, etc., and those things generally and unfortunately have to be met through external conditions.”
I disagree with that Maslow’s hierarchy are ALL genuine needs (besides the bottom 3) and there are different ways (in different cultures) to achieve them. I really don’t have time and energy to debate with anyone on this.
In my experiences, if one passes/acknowledges Freud’s theories and stays on Maslow’s hierarchy ladder, without ever getting onto Jung’s individuation path, one can’t find or build that fundamentally desired security and confidence.
“I can’t create water from nothing to satisfy my physiological needs, for instance, nor can I provide myself with a feeling of social belonging, etc. If I could fill all these voids entirely on my own, I would.”
Physiological needs are essential for everyone, and I don’t think they are major issues/causes for limerence that most of us here are dealing with. A feeling of social belonging can come from two resources: joining existing social groups and comply with their convictions and rules; or creating a new planet with your talents, knowledge, and beauty. Then some others (like-minded) would be drawn to your self-radiating, magnetic light and even become your moons.
Hi Snow,
“That might well be, something out of our control. How are you preparing mentally if it’s going to happen? Your LE — one last time to sit down with your high school LO, is not going to help your dilemma.”
This sparked something major for me – it’s very long and convoluted, but in a very roundabout way, in my mind, the idea of one last meeting with LO would help my dilemma, in that it would be a consolation prize of sorts for not getting what I really want, a career in my field, like a small, vicarious taste of it, because LO is linked to a memory of my career field in some way. Obviously, it would not actually do that. But I think this is the key to why I’m latching on to it. This probably makes no sense, but I’m trying to keep it vague for privacy reasons. Just please trust that you saying this helped me to see what my brain THINKS it’s doing, while making me realize it’s in no way actually doing that.
I so appreciate all your support and help. I can’t believe there’s this wonderful community of intelligent, wise people here willing to witness one another and provide insights like this for strangers.
Victoria,
I’m notorious here for having a frank tongue, limited communication skill (ESL and no subtlety) and also I hold bizarre views on life, since I come from another culture. So please forgive me for my directness.
“the idea of one last meeting with LO would help my dilemma, in that it would be a consolation prize of sorts for not getting what I really want, a career in my field, like a small, vicarious taste of it, because LO is linked to a memory of my career field in some way. “
I could not help laughing hard when I read this. 😄 Let’s say if a God/Goddess of your faith could have such a meeting with you, then all your realistic dilemma would go away and facial wrinkles would never come into your mirror?
Fine, in your mind, by some logic, it could — all your fear about aging or “merciless” career would miraculously disappear; and you’d be feeling over the Moon for days… then what?
Let’s say we all can live up to 100 years old in this era, you’ll have to deal with your concrete daily life, minute by minute, for the next 60 years. Your LO or Your God would not be with you but your SO, so who is going to be on your side cheering you on, when you get rejection on your projects, when you look at “ruthless” mirror, and when you wait for your annul checkup report?
“Obviously, it would not actually do that. But I think this is the key to why I’m latching on to it. This probably makes no sense, but I’m trying to keep it vague for privacy reasons.”
I do not need or want to know your private matters or specific details; events themselves are never as important as they appear, but our REACTIONS towards events matter life-or-death differences, I don’t want to get into lofty Stoicism, but it’s mental tools to help us reducing mental or emotional pains, perhaps you want to check it out?
“J”ust please trust that you saying this helped me to see what my brain THINKS it’s doing, while making me realize it’s in no way actually doing that.”
You’re working in high scholarly field, I’m sure it’s not that difficult to observe one’s own mind. I think your health might still affect your thinking/thoughts or moods, I would focus on improving health, nothing else really matters more starting in our middle age.
Hi Victoria,
I do get your fear of aging and looking old to an LO, and I understand that you didn’t mean to offend anyone else.
Other women seem attractive to us to the old age of 80, but somehow it doesn’t count when our own appearance is concerned.
All of my LOs were younger than me , even SO is a bit younger. The biggest gap was almost 15 years,(and I was your age or even older) and while he was attracted without doubt, he said a lot of times how young I looked and that it was miraculous etc, and while that’s true or was true back then, it puts a pressure on somehow. When he moved away and I saw him only sporadically I worried too that he might be shocked how old I look now etcetc.
I found out that I was very attractive quite late, I was too insecure in my youth, and it seems that I was most attractive in my 30s until over 40, maybe that’s why I also had problems with aging, because I had this whole youth wasted with insecurities.
But in recent months I feel that I start to accept getting older and looking older. Premenopause is happening, and it’s a big deal, no matter how it’s not being talked about, so I get that it‘s not easy to have it happened early on account of treatment.
But I have to say, I’m almost 50 and I started worrying about age at 40. worrying ten good years! And when I‘m seventy I’ll slap my head about me worrying I look old at 50. I’ll think I was so beautiful back then, what was there to worry? I‘m very sure you look fine. Looks are not all about being young. It’s also about being your own character, about your smile, your aura. I see young men responding to that no matter my age. Men are not all these superficial people we might think they are😆.
In your case, your LO isn’t even younger than you. He must have aged himself, so where‘s the worry? And would you really care about a guy who chooses 20 year younger women only because of their young bodies/faces? How boring is such a person?
We should stop that energy wasting. Aging is a part of life, it’s the same for everyone including men.
Concerning your LO, he sounds like someone you put all your desires and worries on, someone who has little to do with the real person he is, some ideal you built in your head over the years? In reality there is nobody like that with whom you could have that last conversation, because the real guy is a completely unknown person to you. What should he talk to you about? He has no idea that he was in your mind all the time, and I guess it would be a very awkward and embarrassing conversation. Sorry if I‘m harsh, and of course I might be wrong and he thought of you the whole time too, but do you yourself really believe it? It sounds a bit like fiction to me, and the big question is now, do you really want to waste more precious time of life and energy on fiction that makes you unhappy?
Hello Victoria R and welcome,
When one will be 49 nearly 50, one will wish they had made the most of everything ( not just beauty ) when one was 39. And so on..
I get it, I have had similar insecurities on aging which no doubt was a factor for me too.
I think more importantly is breaking the brain cycle you are in, as you are not in contact with your LO, nor are you seeing any ‘content’ on his life, which is normally needed in some form to feed the limerence.
Its not that way in your case. There was a poster here who had a dream one night of a previous boyfriend decades after they broke up, and then suddenly she got into a cycle of obsessing over him and their past relationship.
I hope you can speak to a friend, maybe of a similar age who you can discuss your (shared) insecurities and maybe share as much as you want about your mind throwing back to relationships from high school, and what that means.
Hi Imho,
Thank you for your response and kindness. I do have intermittent content on the LO (we have some mutual friends so he pops up once in a great while on their social media), but yeah, there’s no contact and not a lot of content. But you’re right about dreams – I wake up almost every day dreaming about him, about being 17 again with him, and the devastation on realizing that I’m actually 39, in a life that looks little like what I’d hoped for, is so powerful, that lately I’ve been just trying to extend that dream state throughout the day through my LE fantasies. I don’t know how to turn off my dreams, if I could, believe me, I would.
Victoria R.
Thanks for your nice reply and you are most welcome.
I have always have been a daydreamer. In my limerence that time between waking up and getting up seems the time to go into fantasy zone and putting off all the difficult and dull things ahead for the day ahead. I understand you, it’s very comforting and blissful.
I’m currently on a daydream where I help my LO as a witness to a crime. Madness !
There I said it out loud here on LwL, maybe in doing so will break the cycle ?!
I will let you know 😉
I’m also pushing myself to do things that bring pleasure. It’s important to do that.
Even if you don’t find joy initially, it does come eventually. So maybe think of the things you have enjoyed in the past that gave you personally a natural high independent of anyone else including your SO ( a form of exercise, painting, singing, cooking etc )
Hi imho,
Yes, the moments between sleeping and wakefulness are really the worst, aren’t they? It’s so painful to go from what seems nearly real to having to face the harsh light of reality. I’m really not sure why humans dream, except as a form of self-torture.
My current fantasy involves finding out I’ve achieved a major career milestone in front of my LO. It feels so ridiculous and childish writing that out.
Yes, I’m trying with the pleasure part. Trying to even remember what once brought me joy, ha.
Be well.
Hi Mila,
Thank you so much by your response. I’m blown away by the consideration, kindness, and thoughtfulness of the community here.
Yes, my LO is basically an extrapolation from the person I knew 20 years ago, no bearing on who he is today, and I realize this. I moved across the country a long time ago to a big city, the kind that a lot of people find themselves rolling through at some point in their life, and I’ve had instances in which old high school friends have been here for conferences, tourism, etc., and reached out to grab a coffee or dinner while they are here. That’s always what I’ve envisioned with LO – he’s in town for some reason, he reaches out, and we have coffee or dinner. I absolutely do not tell him that he’s occupied my thoughts all these years later, we just catch up one last time. I get this scenario is unlikely, as he doesn’t care that I exist. But we also have a few mutual friends from high school, so there is the outside chance that when I’m back home visiting one of them, we could run into one another. I think part of my fascination is finding out what he’s actually like, how far he does deviate from my fantasies, what he’s made of his life, etc. Honestly, if he was on social media, the spell would probably have been broken long ago, because I’d see he’s just a regular, boring schlub like the rest of us.
As far as wasting my precious time and energy – I think part of the problem is that there is not one thing in my life I feel excited or good about right now. There’s nothing worthwhile this is taking time away from, because nothing worthwhile is happening. It’s just boring work, the failure of my creative life and projects, staring at my husband who I love very much and is a supportive, loving partner, but is unable to generate conversation or emotional atmosphere on his own, if I’m not talking, there’s just silence, worrying about my aging loved ones, trying to get over cancer, worrying about my fading looks, oh, and as an American, the terrifying hell-hole each day has become. There’s nothing that lights me up, that makes me feel hopeful, excited about the future, and these fantasies do, even if they are fake, a placebo.
Thank you again for all your thoughts, I feel so touched that anyone has responded to me and extended compassion and perspective.
@Victoria
Mkay. So, I’ve got:
-Career not where you’d like it to be
-Achievements difficult, career headwinds strong.
-Career environment very critical (competitive/cutthroat?)
-SO is supportive but not engaging, doesn’t ignite/stimulate you in a few key ways
-Cancer: phys and mental aftermath
– Turning 40 (major benchmark)
– overarching/pervading societal garbage: women become worthless after a certain age (garbage, but powerful garbage)
Then there’s this:
“My current fantasy involves finding out I’ve achieved a major career milestone in front of my LO.”
I know you’ve been through much, and you may not feel strong enough to get through more. LO is a nice distraction, I bet…
But, you also have work to do…You need to determine the best course of action at this juncture, if you want to clear limerence…but in my opinion, more importantly, enjoy your lovely life (which, like me, you have learned to value in a whole new way due to surviving cancer.)
It may take time to figure it out. You are not going to wilt at 40 on the dot. You have some time.
I will share with you that I took experienced what I call “the clock”. It began hanging over my life, seconds ticking loudly, right after cancer. “csc…get it going. is *this* how you will spend your one precious life? This moment? One more second??? This?? This???….this?”
It’s not survivor guilt. It’s… Maybe… survivor anxiety. Survivor urgency. It froze me. Paralyzed me. I tell you this in case you feel it. Just know you’re not alone. I don’t know how to shut anyone else’s clock off, tho….
. . .
So, your career is something you love, yet quite rigorous, yes? I am curious, what is the success in the fantasy…is there a real reason you could not achieve it? I’d love to know– even in a non-specific way… What are the obstacles?
I’m not saying they don’t exist or are not potent obstacles. I am just curious.
csc
You are spot on with the post-cancer clock. I think a major reason I’m freaking out about turning 40 is that 40 was a milestone that at one point I wasn’t sure I would make, and once it became clear that I was in remission, it then turned into the date I had to CRAM THE WHOLE REST OF MY LIFE INTO. Because who knows if it could come back? And now it’s six months away and I haven’t DONE THE THINGS! I really appreciate you giving voice to this experience, because I don’t hear a lot of people talking about it, this post-cancer pressure to get it right every second of every day. I also hope you are doing well, in a cancer sense.
In this fantasy, the achievement is, like, akin to winning an Oscar, haha. So, yes, not something that will happen, not something I think I’d actually even realistically want to happen if given the choice, but hey, that’s what fantasies are for, right?
I also feel like I have to clarify that I usually feel very positive about my relationship with my SO, but when I’m in the dumps, I’m harsher about him, like I am about everything. Six months ago I would have said that I have the best partner in the world for me, and I’m sure that once I get out of this I will be thinking that again.
Thank you so much for your thoughts and wisdom and reflections.
@CSC,
Hey girl, just wanted to interrupt your chat to compliment you on your posts yesterday. I read some really deep and profound posting from you that seemed to be coming from your inner depths.
Kudos to you and the way you have been supportive towards others in their struggles here. (Myself included)
You’re writing from the heart and it shows..
Just wanted to give you a quick shout out. Now I’ll get out of the way and perhaps go make myself a cup of coffee. ☕
Victoria & CSC 🤖,
I guess I might be another cancer survivor in this 👻 land to have some right to speak up, right? Your conversation pulled me in.
“I will share with you that I took experienced what I call “the clock”. It began hanging over my life, seconds ticking loudly, right after cancer. “csc…get it going. is *this* how you will spend your one precious life? This moment? One more second??? This?? This???….this?””
CSC,
Everyone gets the same clock ticking in life, it’s just that our clock SEEMS ticking faster or last shorter. But before the final judgment day, “two types” of clocks tick the same way at the same speed. No one has a different exit, with cancer or not.
So in your mind what is worthwhile to spend our “more precious” time, this minute, this hour, this day? Thinking about the clock, worrying about its ticking, or getting into the flow of your daily routines or tasks doing whatever is necessary and meaningful to you?
“It’s not survivor guilt. It’s… Maybe… survivor anxiety. Survivor urgency. It froze me. Paralyzed me. I tell you this in case you feel it. Just know you’re not alone. I don’t know how to shut anyone else’s clock off, tho….”
I must be very ignorant not knowing what this “survivor guilt” is! if by sheer chance, you did not find out your breast cancer at the 3rd or 4th stage and I didn’t have my lymphoma incidentally removed before its spreading, we had incredible lucks 🍀 why feeling guilt? Don’t we naturally feel profound gratitude for our lucks?
Where this survivor “anxiety”, “urgency”, “paralyzation” coming from? And about what? Is there set of things in life urgently waiting for us, especially cancer in remission folks, to achieve? Why would we want to “shut anyone else’s clock off”? Are we competing with others to see who can get more out of life by some universal, standard tangible and intangible achievements? Without them, we are worthless? Without them, we can’t finally close our eyes in happiness or in peace?
. . .
Victoria,
“You are spot on with the post-cancer clock.”
Now, I’m convinced I DO belong to a bird specie, unaware the “post-cancer clock” in human life! 😳
“once it became clear that I was in remission, it then turned into the date I had to CRAM THE WHOLE REST OF MY LIFE INTO. “
Is there such a “date”? When is it for you? for csc? for me? Says who that you have to “CRAM THE WHOLE REST OF MY LIFE INTO”? What are contents of this whole rest of life? specific to you only, or to csc, me and other cancer survivors as well?
“Because who knows if it could come back? And now it’s six months away and I haven’t DONE THE THINGS! “
Who knows if any of us here would be run over by a drunk driver tomorrow or fall our pretty face on a copper stone road out of one/millionth chance?
“I don’t hear a lot of people talking about it, this post-cancer pressure to get it right every second of every day.”
I’m joining the choir now; but why don’t I feel this “post-cancer” pressure? to get WHAT right every second of everyday? 🤔
I have a scary test waiting for me once I get back home, should I worry about it and not enjoy my short vacation in the rain? (🙄 I’d rather to be chased by 100 faceless thought police than by a nameless assistant oncologist for more scary tests and then possibly give me a dreadful sentence! ) If I have one more year to breathe, should I regret not have taken the given chances to put the butt of xLO on my bed 🫣 — to eradicate the root of my LE, once, twice for all? 🧐
“In this fantasy, the achievement is, like, akin to winning an Oscar”
Ah, achievement again, not a purposeful journey ITSELF to achieve aimed goals? No one can resist an Oscar, but the question is after the ceremony, champagne and the hugged Moon, would the sense of glory last for the rest of 60 years, minute by minute, hours by hours as clock goes tick, tick, tick?
“I also feel like I have to clarify that I usually feel very positive about my relationship with my SO, but when I’m in the dumps, I’m harsher about him, like I am about everything. “
When we are physically down, it’s very easy, and even LOGICAL to feel negative about anyone and anything else in the world. Please don’t be too harsh on yourself.
“Six months ago I would have said that I have the best partner in the world for me, and I’m sure that once I get out of this I will be thinking that again”
So why don’t you talk with you SO sincerely (not LE stuff) about your worries as a cancer survivor and about aging? If he’s “the best partner”, why not enlist him to help you through this difficult time? Isn’t it what a good SO/ partner supposed to be and to do?
I wish you both more peace of mind! 🕊️
@Victoria
I’m so glad you got the gist of what I was saying re: the Clock…I made an autocorrect typo when I entered that important sentence, somehow the word “took” got in there. But you got what I meant.
Yeah, the Clock started about 1 or 2 months after my treatment ended, and when I started to feel physically like I could go back out into the world. It was almost as if I could watch my beautiful feeling of relief and gratitude transforming into this horrible thing…this…Clock.
I don’t know about you, but I had never understood my own mortality to that degree, before. It had been an abstract concept to me. (@Snow, this may be why you haven’t got the Clock…and I am happy that you don’t!)
I had never understood my mortality to that degree, or maybe, at all.
Not only my own mortality….my life itself.
The Clock, I suppose I would consider it very close to decision fatigue, or, the “paralysis of choice” for me.
What had felt like Possibility….was changed into Urgency. The anxiety around that felt like a kind of straitjacket. I really was frozen. This, for me, lasted 3 years. I had 3 limerences in this time.
LO3, (LE3), which I am in the process of recovering from, felt exponentially worse than the prior two. I believe it has been/will be transformative. I’m obviously still at work on that.
I’m very sorry, though, to hear that you know what I mean around the Clock. I am sure it’s individual to each of us, but, anything like it is so awful to experience. You are not alone in how you feel. Please chat with me anytime you’d like. I have no idea how to fix it…but I do believe I can understand it. That’s not nothing 🙂
I am intrigued by what you say about the award. I know what you mean, there. I’m a very driven person, too. I own a business, and have always strived to achieve, within that. But, lately, I will say, that feels more hollow. It’s like there’s another side of life that I have to find. So, my efforts, these days (as I crawl out of LE3) are focused on making sure I am doing things I enjoy…non work-related…things I enjoy that have, really, no basis for “pass/fail approve/disapprove”.
Many of these things are things with others– physically with others (not SO). Allowing others to reflect me back to myself, to show me I am ok. not that bad. For instance, book club, or volunteering, yoga. I am doing things with People I Don’t Know.
I have friends — and I have colleagues, and peers, I’m sure you do as well. But I will say, from within my own experience, that getting out, meeting brand new people – not to become their bff or anything– but just to be with them and be myself in a new context — has been HUGE.
I don’t know you – I don’t know where you are at. But, I wonder if that idea might resonate for you…even if it is scary. If not right now, if it feels exhausting to consider right now, table it. Maybe pocket for later?
Anyway no, you are not crazy, you are not faulty, there is nothing wrong with you at all. You have seen some shit and you are in the wake of that. It is serious. You are ok and the natural thing is happening. It is working it’s way through…what happened to you…is working it’s way through. When it’s through, there will be an open space in you, and that is scary. Because you may want to fill it and you don’t know how. But that is ok for now. Don’t worry about that for now….just give yourself some grace, and know the natural progression is happening, things are changing for you, even if it doesn’t feel like it, they are.
with that, i’m off to devour half a jar of peanut butter. x
csc
@Victoria
I want to make sure I am very clear: I am not saying “make new friends! get out and meet people!”
No- what I am saying is go be yourself around people who are new to you. You do not need to be their friend, you do not need to accomplish anything around them. It is just the idea of being around others, who are doing something, while being with yourself, being you.
I want to make sure the distinction is there, because if one has been thru trauma, it sucks to hear “you need to meet new people and make more friends!”
what i’m saying is more an exercise – not a social requirement. i have done this, and my observation from the field is that it’s allowed me to feel i am me, again, and to see myself apart from my relationships and what has happened to me. it’s been eye-opening and positive.
x
Hi all,
I just wanted to say that, as someone who got all they wanted career wise, I found that what I needed to go in the opposite direction, as it wasn’t making me happy. I was taught to constantly put off enjoyment of my life, to strive and work hard, so that it would all pay off in future (‘don’t eat that marshmallow, save it instead’). Well I did work hard, and guess what? Once I got to where I wanted, I realised that there was just another set of hills to climb. Nowadays, I look at people who have reached the top of my profession and actually feel sorry for them because their work/life balance is so out of whack. Women of our generation were always taught to work and strive and then all would be okay. But I think its more important to figure out what you want. If it’s what you want to make it to a certain professional or personal goal, and if you’re sure about that (and prepared to make the odd sacrifice for it), then of course you should move mountains to make it happen.
What I learned, for me was ‘Bewitched, you be careful what you wish for because you just might get it and figure out that it wasn’t what you wanted after all”.
I can only imagine that coming face to face with a serious illness would change the “what do I want?” equation, in any direction.
Purposeful living, for me, wasn’t about my career, in the end. It was more to do with meaningful connections with friends and acquaintances and people in general. Being happy and *living more in the moment* was really important for me and it is something I now reinforce every day. Everyone is different, so this might look the opposite way around for other people. I just think the big trap is to idealise what others have – or worse – to do something for validation from others, rather than because its something you know will make you deeply happy for itself even if no one else gives a damn.
@Bewitched
…the way you’ve written this is very interesting, to me. In some ways, I feel the term “purposeful living” is a strange one…because it does have connotations of the exact opposite of what you’re describing…sort of!
I agree with you, as I’m on my own trajectory. I am learning similar things, though you are further along on that path than I am, I definitely relate to how you’re describing things you’ve been past. It’s interesting to hear how you look, with perspective, at others who continued on in your career line – and to think “whew! i’m well out of it!” that is wonderful to hear. 🙂 edifying!
It’s funny, as a woman, “purpose” is often marketed to me as…hm. I guess that I have to give, and to achieve. Like, oh! If you have purpose, you are doing something! Providing for society in some way! Purpose is never “Hey, right now, your purpose is to sit on this rock, in the sun, and eat the cupcake you got yourself, not feeling guilty, and certainly not sharing it with anyone…then, your purpose is to walk down the street and allow yourself to feel happy to be who you are.”
Purpose, in my experience, has always denoted some kind of…contribution…(to others…implied).
It’s all very interesting. I have no answers. Just interesting to consider. And, I am also glad, so glad! that you have been in this space of enjoyment, so you can wave that flag for the rest of us…from me, this woman, specifically…I am trying to learn to just sit back and enjoy. And not…(not to oversimplify)…have everything be such a big freakin deal. haha
witch on, bewitched! x
csc
🅱️ 🧙,
I’m totally with you on career and achievement stuff, have been “on the top” of small mountains, and know the feeling of “void” standing up there, then seeing another set of mountains for climbing…. And I see tons of others, the majority of women and men, are eagerly climbing, believing there is some kind Nirvana up there… What an illusion!
I’m done with all that, have climbed down all hills, and am trying to “purposefully” appreciate my “carefree” moments (especially after this lengthy LE), with good books, videos, purple proses, travels and the world “passing by”. Like you, substantial, solid human connections has been most precious to me, a lone wolf, and it’s very hard to build since everyone else around me in my big town seems always on the go for some specific goals…
I don’t know how much time left for me, but I’m not worried (a little perhaps). I remembered once I asked Dad why he seemed always jolly and not worried about ticking clock, he said, “Is worrying about it going to stop it? we can CHOOSE what we think, and I always did!… ” I never forgot that phone conversation.
You’re my kind of 🧙! I wish I could live closer to you for a genuine platonic friendship in reality. 🫂
Hi VictoriaRatliff,
It’s unfortunate that you’re struggling with your perceived lack of attractiveness right now. I hope you emerge from this experience with greater appreciation for yourself. In the meantime, let’s address your limerence.
You mentioned that daydreams of your LO occupy 95% of your thoughts. How frustrating! And it sounds like you are more focused on what your LO thinks of you than what you think of him. I suspect there is a reason that you are using someone from your pre-cancer years as a limerent object. My best guess is that you are trying to answer the question, “Do I still have value?” If you can prove your value to a pre-cancer LO, you might actually believe that you still have value. This is my best guess. I could be way off base here.
I want you to consider what the term “limerent object” means. You have created yourself an idol. I understand that he is a real person, but the object in your thoughts is only based on a real person. Your LO fantasies are not real. They are serving a purpose for you. Maybe you used limerent reverie as an escape. It’s very effective and nice until you become plagued with intrusive thoughts. The intrusive thoughts are awful! I suspect you are in the intrusive thoughts stage. When you feel ready, I suggest that you check out Dr L’s resources for people who want to recover from their limerence. You might find some wisdom to help you move forward. It’s okay if you aren’t ready for that yet. I think your limerence is teaching you something important and maybe you should learn that lesson before moving on. Maybe not. I don’t know. I’m just a stranger on the internet.
Thank you for sharing your journey with us! Best wishes!
Hi Lovisa,
Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to me. This is such a lovely, thoughtful community.
” I suspect there is a reason that you are using someone from your pre-cancer years as a limerent object. My best guess is that you are trying to answer the question, “Do I still have value?” If you can prove your value to a pre-cancer LO, you might actually believe that you still have value. This is my best guess. I could be way off base here.”
You hit the nail on the head here. It’s very odd – shouldn’t I have come out of cancer feeling of MORE value? Unlike most people my age, I actually understand what it’s like to stare death in the face, to realize the preciousness of each day, I made it through something most of them can only imagine in their worst nightmares. I should feel like a badass, unstoppable, I should feel the beauty of my life, I should feel proud and grateful and excited to start a new decade, a new decade that a few years ago I wasn’t sure I’d reach. And yet, I feel used up, tarnished, devalued, weird, insignificant, nothing. I’m really not sure why that is.
Thank you for directing me toward Dr. L’s resources, I will definitely take a look.
To Victoria:
I wonder if you’re trying to return to a pre-cancer time? I find I do that with traumatic events. Go back to before the bad thing happened.
Just a thought.
@victoria
no.
There are no rules as to how one comes out of cancer.
I will tell you right now that brave survivor sh*t is marketing for the masses, not reality. No. You are going at your schedule. Do not believe what anyone says about where you “should” be, emotionally, after cancer. It is YOUR story. Nobody gets to tell you where you are. Nor should they.
There is no right or wrong. No set timeline for grief or loss. Or fear.
You are where you are with what happened. That is ok.
The brave survivor, phoenix rising people are like a handful of people. The rest of us are quietly dealing with what happened to us, trying to move on, to understand, to let time do it’s work. You do not need to do, or be, anything. You made it, you’re here.
The idea one must rise like a champion is for Hollywood. Real life…it is much more nuanced. You are already stronger than many. 💗
Hi csc,
Yes, you’re right. It’s bullshit. It just would be nice if people could leave traumatic events feeling more powerful instead of diminished. Not sure why that’s so rarely the case.
To Victoria:
I remember that somebody once referred to me as a “survivor” and I winced. I don’t feel like a survivor at all. There’s got to be a better word.
Hi Victoria.
Welcome, it’s good to have you here and I’m glad to see that you are using the wisdom of the folk here. I’ve not been here long and they are all awesome!
Firstly, as a 54 year old man I would say that 40 + women are beautiful and sexy. And I don’t care what society says!
The main reason I wanted to get in touch was regarding your high school
LO, and your continued thoughts about him. A few weeks ago when I first came across the term limerence and found this sight, I realised that the first girl I fell in love with at 15 was actually my first LO and LE. I have seen her once in 25 years, yet I would hate to think about the amount of time I’ve spent thinking and fantasising about her since. Not physical fantasies (although she was a beautiful girl and is still a beautiful woman) but a continued image of what our life together would have been like. The house and children. Etc etc. It was by no means a mutual LE, and I strongly suspect that she thought that I was a stupid immature boy. To answer your question, I know that despite this she did find me attractive at the time. Now I’m in my 50’s, with white hair and other ravages of age, I highly doubt that she would now! Of course, my Limerant brain disputes this. We have been together for all those years and she wouldn’t look at another man.
Hmmmnn …..
@MJ
putting this down here as i didn’t want to hijack Victoria’s thread up there.
thank you, friend. from afar, i raise my coffee to you…i hope your coffee was delicious and satisfying.
yes friend, i’m on a freakin vision quest these days. there is no other alternative as i see it. it’s either go on the vision quest or… do what i’ve been doing, relying on approval from others (like LO, colleagues, societal approval at large etc) to give me worth…plugging into mirages so i don’t have to assume responsibility, so I can deflect it…which is no option at all.
about two weeks ago i actually googled ‘existential crisis’…
i am grateful to you for just showing up and being so honest about what you’ve gone through, your feelings…it helps so much to know one is not alone. It helps that we all help each other….even though, I would imagine none of us here would wish limerence or any of the issues that swim with it — on anyone. (Ok, maybe on a few people…haha) but i think you know what I mean.
it’s such a private thing. having each other, here…my god, i cannot imagine if i did not have the people here, and i’d had to navigate this on my own (even with a therapist)…having the community – where you can post anytime, and pour it out. it’s huge. a talented therapist is great…but i have often thought “even if i were a billionaire, i could not afford the hours i need.” i was that much in pain… having kind of an open-session, here….my god i don’t know what i’d do without that option.
hugs, MJ. (et al!)
csc
@CSC,
I see you.. 😉 You’re very welcome. Glad to be of any help. Even though I know it isn’t much. I have found this is a good place to vent with others who get and understand the trickery in our situations. I mainly wanted to acknowledge you because of your short tenure here so far, yet you write like you’ve been around much longer. I appreciate you and the many others who have contributed to my rants and faults. For there are many.. I’m glad you’re here.
I’ve not had much luck in the area of therapy around my home area. Just in my general region, I was rejected by 2 Therapists. At a time when I was really bottoming out emotionally. When trying to bring up the subject of limerence, I swear they thought I was speaking in another language. Ultimately one of them wrote me off due to an insurance concern (Which was bs) and the other one wouldn’t accommodate me for evening time in-person hours. (More bs). All because teletherapy took over (horse$#!+ covid) which I am vehemently against. Nevermind the fact they had 50+ Therapists in their network too. And not a single one would consider taking me on..
I work in a major US city. I’m still considering looking around for someone who knows a thing or two concerning limerence. I found someone online awhile ago, but am apprehensive about paying for something that I don’t know if my situation can really be helped with or not. For now, I’m still on the fence.
Good Monday all!
I hope everyone is doing well. I’ve been absent here for a while, but I’ve still been skimming pots. My LE ended up taking quite an intense turn and I’ve just been living in my little bubble recently. But slowly the cracks of reality are starting to show again.
It’s weird because I feel like my obsession has started to fade and I am starting see my LO more as a human being, and all the red flags that come along with him. But I still can’t quite quit.
I no longer get the same butterflies that I used to when I thought about a possibility with him, but still I cannot quit.
I see it now as a form escapism, and yet still I cannot quit.
I feel in my heart that his feelings aren’t genuine towards me (a similar sentiment to something JustMe said “it wasn’t me she cared about, it was what I gave her.”) and yet I still can’t quit.
I think that I know deep down despite all of this, I still do care about LO and that’s why I can’t do it. The LE isn’t quite as all consuming as it was but I don’t think I’m quite ready to let go. The problem is will I ever be?
Cat
Hi Cat
Welcome back.
“I still do care about LO and that’s why I can’t do it. The LE isn’t quite as all consuming as it was but I don’t think I’m quite ready to let go. The problem is will I ever be?”
That is the perennial problem/question, isn’t it? I am slowly believing my own words regarding the bit you quoted me on, yet I too don’t feel ready to let go. She (LO) occupies such a place in my brain (and heart?) that I still feel that I could move mountains for her. But that’s just it: she’d be perfectly happy to let me. On her terms. And around we go on another lap. Yet the prospect of letting go of that willingness, and hope, feels far far away.
JM
Cat and Justme,
Cat I’d be intrigued to hear what this ‘turn’ was that your LE took. But I appreciate maybe you can’t or would rather not say.
About what you’re both talking about (your LOs seeming to take affection on their terms) – Snow once had an interesting take on this, which I think piggy-backed off DrL’s post (you can find in the archives) called “Why are they leading me on?”. This was the say that for *some* LOs, the limerent’s and behaviours become like the LO’s own LO – they just want more of it as it validates them. It sounds weird but it kind of works.
I am not advocating trying to blame our LOs in situations like that – after all, we fed them, they just liked the food. But understanding it a bit like that has helped me as I’ve tried to withdraw.
Good luck with your next steps both of you.
Typo – *the limerent’s own behaviours
LaR. The fact that I fed my LO is absolutely beyond question or doubt, and I am learning that this is not down to her. The validation that I gave her had become my raison d’etre. What she then did was to keep drawing more and more. My balancing act now is around the fact that my obsession with her is not her fault or responsibility, yet having a clearer view of how my devotion to her was (unwittingly, maybe) utilised as a warm and fuzzy attention source for her. This is the difficult balance with this LE lark that I’m still trying to fathom.
Thanks for your good wishes and continued support. You are much appreciated.
“The validation that I gave her had become my raison d’etre. What she then did was to keep drawing more and more.”
Looking back to when Lady Friend and I were still talking, she definitely liked the validation. It’s sometimes a response they have due to some childhood trauma. Which LF definitely told me there were issues-a-plenty she had growing up in her house. Because of her Father’s alcoholism and drug dependency..
Hi LaR, sorry for the slow response.
A bit of background for context as I know it can be hard to follow everybody particular circumstances, my LO is someone I met online. They are also in another country. All of our communication is through a social media platform. My main reason for wanting to go NC is that I was questioning the future of the relationship with my SO of 15 years.
By a turn I meant that I went from considering going NC, to fully embracing the LE.
By fully embracing it I just let myself get completely carried away. Believing that maybe there was a possibility of us having some kind of future together. I don’t know if there was any specific turning point other than my LO seems to know exactly the right things to say to keep me hooked. Even now it’s still comes in waves. I flip flop between feeling one way or the other. I feel like when I am fully embracing the LE, that I don’t belong here, but once those feelings of guilt and anxiety come rushing back it’s the first place I run to.
But every now and then LO lets slip some behaviour that I probably wouldn’t tolerate if I wasn’t in a LE. Sometimes when enough of this behaviour builds up it lets me see that maybe some of their actions aren’t so genuine or if they are it’s not something that I would be willing to put up with in a relationship once the LE died down.
I’m not putting all the blame on LO of course I know I have my part to play in all of this also. And sometimes I will use that to excuse their behaviour. That possibly he thinks I’m the one playing games with him. But who can ever know another person at the end of the day and how can you trust instincts when your at the height of a LE.
The DrL’s blog “ Why are they leading me on?” is the KEY light torch that brushed off so many clouds in my LE up to that moment. Then all the loose pieces fit into puzzle board.
For Sensor’s limerence fed on us limerent’s LE, I could not help sigh, deep sigh…. Sensor LOs are not evil, they can be very sweet, charming, helpful, and “kind” for the fruit of your affection. Sensor LO is walking serotonin to your LE, and your LE affection is dopamine to them.
They can appear harmlessly “desirous” in LE with your LE for them. Please remember, they do NOT truly care about YOU as a whole person, they care about your LE affection FOR them. For whatever insecurities, they just want and even need it, not just from you, but others simultaneously, or as many as they can get. You’re monogamously in LE with one person; s/he is polygamously in LE with many limerents at the same time, you’re just a number in their amorous fuel matrix.
@ Snow:
“ Please remember, they do NOT truly care about YOU as a whole person, they care about your LE affection FOR them. For whatever insecurities, they just want and even need it, not just from you, but others simultaneously, or as many as they can get. You’re monogamously in LE with one person; s/he is polygamously in LE with many limerents at the same time, you’re just a number in their amorous fuel matrix.”
Oh. My. Word. You have just summed up my latest LO/LE sooooo perfectly.
JM,
Then keep the statement well in your mind which helped me see through the motives behind my xLO’s seemingly benign behavior and refrain myself from going into LE further.Without a SO, I was much “freer”/guilty free to act on my addicted LE emotions and urges; but DrL’s article kept circling in my head, thus no big stupid mistakes made in this LE – an ultimate denial to feed his LE for my addictive LE affection.
Read DrL’s article again and again until you really absorb every bit of its content! There are seemingly good natured or “vulnerable” Sensors everywhere…. They “play at” your heart, whether by schemes or unawareness.
Again, they’re not evil but deeply flawed and suffer their own insecurity; have a compassion for them after you get out of your LE.
@Snow ❄️
Thank you for sharing the link back to that article. This is great to keep in mind as I go forward.
At this point, I am starting to develop some skills so I will not become limerent again (nor become a totally isolated heart, as a protective reaction, nor carry around ill-will towards anyone, xLO included.)
haha Note xLO (I am not able to call him XLO yet, we are at small x here!)
Hope your travels continue to delight!
csc 🤖,
Based on Tunnov and DrL’s concepts, I’m a limerent type probably since birth. I also have unofficially diagnosed OCD, I know I’m intense in everything I get hands on, or no interest at all; no “half-hearted” style.
Now after my cptsd got such healed, with newly gained limerence knowledge, regular practices of Stoicism & Buddhism, adding a healthy, lovely dose of Romanticism, I think I can manage NOT to slip into another limerence, but grow the plant of love — which is not once-for-all fixed emotion but elevating.
Snow
I have made a screenshot of it. Honestly, you hit the the nail squarely on the head. I’ve read Dr L’s post – I’ll have to revisit it as it was a lot to take in, but thank you for directing me to it.
@Snow ❄️
Thank you, yes, I can understand what you’re saying. I’m a woman of intensity as well.
It is interesting, trying to look at love another way. Or, really, I suppose it’s looking at myself another way, at myself and what I want.
More and more, I am realizing I never had a plan for the kind of love I wanted, the kind of person I wanted in my life, I never had a vision of them. I hoped someone would love me. But, I never had…I suppose…criteria…Instead, I made allowances….over and over. Instead of saying “this is not for me” I said …”Well…ok. I guess I’ll go along.”
Yes, when you love someone, of course one must make allowances. But, mine get made in the very beginning, instead of after I know someone, after they prove they are trustworthy, etc.
Now that my limerence is fading a bit, I will admit, it is still very hard to look at xLO and see his imperfections. However, a few times, I have been able to see, he talked a lot. But, no action. Talk is cheap. Somehow, I was not able to see it…to see that he kept *saying* he would do things, for me, with me…but…never actually did them. Or, did them at such a slow pace, and I took the breadcrumbs!
Anyway – I am actually quite excited for my future as a more assertive yet calm woman. It will take time to master. I will just try and live as honestly as I can until it all takes hold.
I am glad you feel you can welcome love, the “plant” and I love that analogy…beautiful.
CSC 🤖,
“It is interesting, trying to look at love another way. Or, really, I suppose it’s looking at myself another way, at myself and what I want.”
I’m not sure how you define “love” here? there are 8 types in Ancient Greek. I always try to void this word, is it just one type, Eros, or a combination among 8.
“More and more, I am realizing I never had a plan for the kind of love I wanted, the kind of person I wanted in my life, I never had a vision of them.”
Can we plan for any kind of love in advance? or make, plant one as we go along our small life? I don’t think or know whether people of intensity or romantics plan for anything in advance, let along love matter/partner. I had no vision of them, but seemed to know once I met them. Alas, of course, I made tons of mistakes. Perhaps, glimmer/lust/limerence got in the way of my envision….
“I hoped someone would love me. But, I never had…I suppose…criteria…Instead, I made allowances….over and over. Instead of saying “this is not for me” I said …”Well…ok. I guess I’ll go along.”
As normal humans, we all wish to be genuinely, unconditionally loved, but often even our parents were incapable of giving such a love, let alone another entire stranger. I think criteria for another is impractical, since it’s out of our control at any given moment. However, if we root in our own and beliefs or principles and keep mind open, we could generate love within for ourselves and others. A hungry beggar is unable to spare healthy and sufficient bread to another human being.
“Yes, when you love someone, of course one must make allowances. But, mine get made in the very beginning, instead of after I know someone, after they prove they are trustworthy, etc.”
Are you talk about your “limerence” love, or ordinary love/dating situations?
“Now that my limerence is fading a bit, I will admit, it is still very hard to look at xLO and see his imperfections. “
Your limerence sounds still strong. I could see xLO’s imperfections in the hight of my LE, but unable to pull back due to my highly aroused nervous system. It will take some time after your total NC.
“Anyway – I am actually quite excited for my future as a more assertive yet calm woman. It will take time to master. I will just try and live as honestly as I can until it all takes hold.”
You might want to talk with your therapist about this. Assertiveness with oneself, with one’s unbending principles are much harder to cultivate than with others. We all need to find out what would make us calm at peace (besides physical exercises), it’s different for everyone.
“I am glad you feel you can welcome love, the “plant” and I love that analogy…beautiful.”
I think in order to welcome “love” (whatever combination it is in your dictionary), I would have to generate enough love from within first (totally opposite of limerence), then meet a half way to external “love” — a moon-climbing path, since everyone defines, interpreted, and acts “love” out differently.
For a Stoic, the key still lies on NOT to expect anything from uncontrollable (others and the world at large) while you still try/do your best. They do not hope (okay, may be 1%), but carry out their interpretation of virtues and love to themselves and to others. I guess my definition of “love” sounds more like Agape, with or without Eros.
While not expecting, our mind has more space to cultivate more love and compassion.
Be patient, and keep moving forward…. May peace be soon with you.
Typo: “try to avoid this word….”
It’s 2 weeks since I told my LO that I needed space. It’s just over a week since I got a work Teams “hi” from her. I’ve had a weekend away, and I’m just reflecting on where I am in my journey, which I hope you all don’t mind me sharing here.
As many of you know, I started off feeling terribly guilty, and missing her agonisingly. I’m sure that Snow and csc in particular will be glad to hearthat the guilt has almost gone – I think. I am able to view that more objectively, and using Snow’s brilliant observation, I’m truly now aware that her “commitment” to me was actually a need for my limerent attention. Although I haven’t asked for it, there has been no attempt by her to empathise or understand my feelings or my situation. She has just walked away to carry on receiving that attention from her many other (including male) attention sources. That’s how much she needed ME….
As to do I miss her? Yes. But again I look at it more objectively. I am aware at the moment that I am somewhat rubbishing her in my own head – but Dr L advises that, right?? That kind of behaviour isn’t me, but it’s my last form of defence to a woman who has taken everything I have, and it’s meant nothing to her. She would argue that’s not true, but finally – I’m beginning to understand. However I still want to get to a place where I don’t think negatively of her. I hope that will come and that I’m able to. My previous LEs have ended with mixed results there.
I’m not fooled – it’s early days, and I had voluntarily (but somewhat unwittingly) invested a massive part of being in her. So I know that there will probably be more dark days where my life feels barren without her. It still does to some extent , and she is constantly in my thoughts. And the anxiety regarding what she might be doing and who with still makes me feel sick. But I feel as though I’m on the road. I just need to keep looking back for her less.
Thank you everyone (you know who you are) for your support, encouragement, wisdom and advice so far. I’m sure I’ll need more…..
Hi justme,
I just wanted to say that I am proud of how much progress you have made. We can only take small steps at a time. It’s not something we can rush, we have to feel all of these feelings in order to heal from them. Self reflection is a huge part of coming out of the LE.
Some days are always going to be harder than others. Things that may trigger us are unpredictable.
It’s not lost on me that giving the advice is so much easier than following your own words (I’m currently in a bad place with my LE but won’t dwell here in your space) so I understand that this is no easy task for you.
So please keep on sharing. Sometimes just writing down how we are feeling, especially to sympathetic ears, can make the world of difference.
Cat
Dear Cat
Thank you for that, it really means a lot. It’s so powerful to know that others here can appreciate what it’s like: that it isn’t just being in love, it’s a whole other form of quite unpleasant addiction which begs a whole load of questions about something being wrong/missing.
The advice is something I couldn’t be without, so thank you. It must be tough to advise when you’re going through it yourself. I’m not sure I’d be much use to anyone right now! I wouldn’t object to you sharing your story here. I’m sure you have in other places, and if you haven’t don’t feel pressured. Just wanted you to know that it would be ok with me to put it here!
As I said I’m aware that bad days are probably lurking waiting to pounce, at least I know that they seem to be getting fewer.
JMMO
Hi @LaR
Thank you so much LaR for your kind encouragement. I know it’s different with us, since you (and JMMO) have LC (or CC!) with your LOs, but yes, I can relate to your feeling, now, where you’d almost rather avoid her. (JMMO if you’re reading this, yes, I think 2 weeks sans LO is probably going to be amazing for you… even if it’s also weird and painful….:)
I know, LaR, that you will be able to continue on, and to heal, and yes, go at whatever pace you are going at. You’ve come so far, and you’re so mindful…That in and of itself is an education. We simply cannot rush the loss, grief, or truly transformational aspects within ourselves.
I see these as natural forces…Somehow, I find that a comforting way to view them. The way you cannot rush a season. You cannot rush the tide, nor night and day…or twillight. It all happens. It just…does.
Keep the faith, LaR…and I will too. We are all here to help one another, and thank goodness for that.
x
csc
@JustMe
Yes! I think we are at similar points. I too felt Snow’s citation and quote helped push me over to a new place. I too feel pangs when I think of xLO out there with his (no doubt) cadre of admirers.
But, I also know while that may feel pang-y now, it will not, forever. Eventually it’ll all get sanded down and we (you and I) will have new things in our lives to occupy our attention.
Today I woke up and I don’t remember what my first thought was but I can tell you it was not xLO.
@jmmo I have to say, I am pretty amazed we have both been so strong! I personally have backslided (backslid?) many, many times in this LE and I was not sure I could make it. But now, I do feel I have more solid ground under my feet.
I’m one week ahead of you – 3rd week NC (on Friday it’ll be 1 month!) And I am looking forward to seeing how next week (week 3) feels for you.
I’ve started feeling creative again, and social, and am taking a class. I’m feeling myself being myself again. I had forgotten…because my LE had lasted an entire year. I forgot myself, who I was, what little me up. I doubted I ever knew … But yes it is, she is, very much still there.
Now I have to be careful not to attract other LOs, and if I do to tell them I have SO right away.
My weak point is not the glimmer. It’s misrepresenting myself as single. That’s a whole other ball of wax but I’ll be dealing with SO etc once I feel rooted again. For now, solid ground is a welcome thing
Big hugs, JMMO.
csc
Oops– what LIT me up
😊
Dear csc
Thank you once again for your support and encouragement. When you talk about how you and I gave better days ahead if us, and how amazed you are by how far we come, I feel genuinely inspired and comforted.
I am aware that my slight relief may be temporary. LO is on leave for 2 weeks which is doubtless making it easier. I’m not sure how I’ll be when I know she’s back, but I only have to interact with her very little and hopefully in 2 weeks time I’ll be much stronger still.
I’m so heartened to hear of the progress you’ve made. I’ve done the same thing in previous LEs though not in this one, so you’re not alone in that either!
My LE is around a year, although I think the addiction took hold about 6-7 months ago. Our stories do seem very similar.
Thank you again, from the bottom of my heart. I look forward to us both moving forwards to better things.
Hugs
JMMO
@csc and JMMO,
I’m really inspired by the progress you’re both making since you took your vows and went NC. You both seem much lighter than even a week ago. Yes, you can expect worse days but the overall direction of your graphs seem to be positively headed.
Keep going both of you! Hearing it is making me want NC, at least for a spell! CSC, in answer to your previous question, I am just over two months into the LC. We have cut the amount of contact almost to the minimum that work allows, but it is still quite a bit – its more now about ‘conscious contact’, as you put it, than being able to lower the amount more. You two’s trajectories out might overtake mine because of this difference. I’m firmly out of limerence but not out of its aftermath – some days better than others. A temporary block of NC is on the cards really soon 🙂
@Cat,
I’ve lost the place where you replied to me, but thank you for explaining that about ‘the turn’. Ups and downs in resolve and being drawn back, as if magnetically, were frequent for me too. These things can take on a life of their own. We can’t control our thoughts or LO’s actions, only our actions. But 👀☝️at where JMMO and CSC have got to now they took it into their own hands. This can be you too when you’re ready – but I really get it can take a while to reach that point!
Good luck y’all with the next bits 🫂
Hi LaR
Thanks for your comments and continuing to check in. It was because of several of you here that I found the strength to take matters into my own hands. And to quote Dr L, it did indeed “hurt like a bastard”! Csc I know has also struggled with her own flash of independence, but I am hoping that she and I are on that trajectory.
In terms of work, I think I’m going to have to create a new abbreviation : MC or minimal contact when she returns. We’ll have to see how that goes.
Thanks again, and I hope that your recovery continues. When did it dawn on you that you were “out of limerance?”
JM,
“When did it dawn on you that you were “out of limerance?”
Wow that’s a great question, and one I’d have been proud of in my ‘awkward LwL questions playbook’!
A conversation happened between LO and I in Feb where it hung thick in the air for both of us “this has to stop” (without really addressing what ‘this’ was). I think I know why we came to the realisation, but to give the detail is too revealing.
Anyway – there was a pretty swift death of hope within the next couple of weeks to month. Intellectual hope had died long before but this was the emotional hope catching up and dying.
There wasn’t quite a “switch flick” moment where I can say ‘I know it ended right there’ (whereas there was at the start). But a cluster of things started to tell me I was out: she was no longer the first thought when I woke, first on some days, then every day; I had clear spells in my mind where she didnt intrude for hours as compares to minutes at earlier stages; I could be more present with SO. Then – when I saw LO, for a while I just felt mixed emotions, then ‘muh’, and then eventually almost the opposite, like I wanted to avoid her. I don’t want it to stay that way – I want to get to a point where I feel mutual or mildly friendly towards her again. But for now, a contact provokes stress whereas once it provoked so much limerent excitement.
It is very sobering and it has been quite a bleak time (never known tiredness like it, lots of “what the hell happened to two years of my life and how did I let it?” thoughts to grapple with). Feel like I might be seeing the first green shoots of pulling through the other side of that bit now, but have accepted it will take a while and just to be gentler with myself while I adjust.
Hi csc
Yes, I spotted your reply to LaR. I will look forward to achieving that 2 week milestone! Thank you. Hugs x
Hi LaR, thanks for the insight into your experience. I recognise aspects of that from previous LEs and am becoming more hopeful of it going the same with this episode. I must admit that I am not looking forward to coming across her at work, minimal as it will be. I anticipate that I will continue doing everything I can to avoid her (I’m already plotting how I can get out of a teams meeting that she will be part of).
Thank you both for your ongoing support. I am wishing everything good for you .
Whoa boy~
Just stumbled across this site after reading about the good Dr’s book in The Guardian.
Now, after about 2 months of having set aside / worked through/ utilized strategies for letting go of a person I’ve been smitten with, now, I find out what it is that I’ve been experiencing and it has a name: limerance. Just when I was getting over the obsessive thinking, bam! It’s back.
Without getting into details I am married for 35 years and without seeing it coming I became obsessed with the kindness, gentleness, and overall characteristics of the LO, and felt a deep connection. I never ever felt this way with my SO so it’s been quite confusing and , frankly, scary because the experience of interacting with the LO feels as though I missed the ball in the relationship with my SO.
I want a friendship with the LO but that remains to be seen. Hubby knows that I want a friendship with this person and is supportive, knows that I’ve experienced a connection with this person that I’ve felt has been missing in my life.
We have many interests in common and have shared books, movies, etc. outdoor activities, common childhood experiences. He is unique in that those interests aren’t common to males, so it’s like meeting someone who can go to depths that others haven’t been able. Yikes.
And just when I was letting go of and loosening the reins of thinking obsessively about this person, I’ve stumbled upon information and it’s reactivated my wish and longing to be around the LO.
I’d finally come to an acceptance that I might go to my grave having feelings for this person that will never be fully expressed or acted on; that it’s the price I have to pay for having stumbled across a unique situation with this person.
Thanks for being here and posting. I’m learning a lot.
Hi Dawn!
Welcome! And maybe kinda sorry for you to welcome you. Or not. I don’t know 🤷
In any case, I get you on the feeling to be eerily similar to LO, kinda like a cosmic connection or something. I got that too in the beginning. And yet I think limerence made me see the similarities the most and the differences a lot less… But in the end we are absolutely different in many ways except a few that are oddly very very improbable to find in common.
Life is weird.
Maybe you needed to find connection on those things you have in common, but although they might appear like most of your life right now they may not be enough.
Good luck anyway!
Thanks for your welcome and kind words. There’s a ton of sadness swirling with this now that had previously lifted. Will continue reading and extricating myself. It’s helpful to know I’m not alone.
Hi Dawn,
It’s quite a pivotal moment when you read about limerence and realise this is what you are (or have been) experiencing.
Sorry if it was also triggering for you, but hope the knowledge may help in the long run to reflect on the “why”.
Feel free to share, or just vent a bit here anytime, because most on LwL are understanding and can empathize.
Best wishes
Hi Dawn
I’d fully agree with Imho. I’d go so far as to say that it was a game changer for me. Stumbling across that word during google searches whilst looking up unrequited love was massive. So much made sense almost immediately – not just about my current LE (huge as that was) but about my life as far back as 15. Then finding this wonderful community….
If you don’t mind me offering you a tip: I have found going through the blog archive very helpful. You are bound to come across topics which Dr L has written about that you can immediately identify with. Doing that has helped me make so much ground in feeling less isolated and more comforted. That and the words of people like Imho, who are so supportive and generous.
Best wishes
JMMO
Hi!
This is part update on my situation, part reply to LaR
@LaR
No problems for the delay, I think the point in the end is also not to spend all our time here!
First, I can definitely see what you meant when you said our LE are mirroring. It’s very impressive!
I’m also to the stage of regretting how bad I let things go, mostly in terms of communication, but also tentative friendship. I can relate to the question of how I let myself get that deep a lot too…
“– did I lead her on? And did she lead me on or did I imagine that bit?”
To me, she led me on. The thing is that I am also sure she didn’t do that voluntarily. Whether what led me on came from mutual limerence, profond feelings I got attracted to, mirroring the intensity of mine or just difference in communication is unclear.
-“(most of all) guilt at how I pulled the plug on a lot of it quite quickly – kind of ‘what must she think of me now?’, ‘have I let her down?’, ‘she will now know that the ‘friendship’ I offered wasn’t all genuine and lasting’.”
The thing is, if she knew how much this hurt you and that you need to get away she’ll probably tell you that of course it’s ok to go ( if she’s half a decent person but she likely is, since you like her). She’s probably somehow aware of this on some level, don’t fret too much that she’s letting you go if that is what you actually need.
About my so, I think he also saw very early that the relationship was odd, and not necessarily in a way threatening to him: at the beginning he was ( and still is) concerned this was a toxic dynamic, due to the level of pain on my part. So he’s wondered why I was sticking with this. But it’s possible I talked to him about her earlier in limerence thant I would have with a guy, because the fact that she was a girl made it less threatening and easier to vent about the whole thing. He still asked me if I was sure I was not in love with her though, so I guess it was a bit obvious anyway 🤷
But on the other hand, I’m not sure it’s easier to manage, because when I got around to admitting it to him then the question for him was whether I was bi and it was a crush as it could have happened with an other guy ( we’re both not very jealous) or wether I just now realized I was gay.
On my end, things have not gone very well. I was kinda proud to be annoyed at her on Thursday rather than self loathing; little did I know this would be followed by three days of self loathing and regret and crying on my inability to get understood by her and how bad I messed up the whole thing. But I’m very tired, the week was long and taxing and I tend to get depressed when I run on fumes. I’m getting a bit better today, I think. I think, for all the regret about not being understood, I have not actually corrected her much on the things the thought about me that are wrong ( and to me, really bad, although maybe not to her) . First, because it pained me that she thought so and because of limerence it took proportions too epic for me to defend myself and respond, and second, because I made her into such a magical being in my head that she must have understood somehow what I didn’t say or seen things about me better than I do myself.
Yeah. Turns out looking at each other is probably not a precise and effective mode of communication.
Good luck everyone !
Hi s.anon,
Thanks for the reply. I understand what you’re saying about the bi/gay dimension adding more confusion for your SO, and perhaps countering out the other part I mentioned.
Also, thanks for saying to me about trying not to get hung up on why she might be letting go. It’s a more peaceful understanding of it if I think like that. What I ruminate on is thinking I’ve let her down. And yet … we both let go a lot around the same time, with a bit of a pre-discussion, but still not addressing the full elephant in the room. It still suggests there was some mutual understanding – some ‘getting it’ on why it was needed.
This letting go (while still in necessary contact) is what I need now, for my own peace, so I will try to let it be. What I realised is that I was just so tired of/from maintaining the LE where it was, that it was unsustainable. I don’t think I could get pulled back in if I tried now (executive brain has taken too much charge) but I still need time to grieve the loss (even if in some ways it is ‘a false loss’), deal with the sort of thoughts I mentioned yesterday, and work out how relations between us look going forward, etc. It’s like I gave so much of my head to this for a couple of years (not normally willingly), that finding a new normal now is going to take time. I, like you, thank my lucky stars that my SO is still by my side as I do that.
“for all the regret about not being understood, I have not actually corrected her much on the things she thought about me that are wrong”
This bit would seem quite crucial to whatever you’re grappling with now. I don’t have much understanding of what these things are that she may have mis-perceived about you, and that you’d hope to correct in her. I don’t know if I have missed that detail in an old post. If it would help to discuss it more, please do – but also I don’t want you to feel forced / pressured!
Hi LaR,
Taking a break sound hard, I get that. I’ve been considering doing so myself; when I’m sad I think it might be necessary in the end.
Maybe something that you can tell her is that you’re sorry for letting her down. Like starting a meeting with “you’re all gonna hate me at the end of this” helps with delivering bad news when you don’t want to 🤣
I agree that the part you mention is crucial, and it’s not that I feel pressured, but it’s hard to explain without a lot of detail on what we do (some relates to her teaching) and with English not being my native tongue ( I’m only posting here because I’m reasonably convinced she does not speak English at all)
But basically the problem is that I tend to wonder too much how she will take things, both because of limerence and because everything goes into a feedback loop at the slightest negative. Some of my reactions I could not explain to her without explaining the feedback problem, which spans from something I have difficulties accepting or wording, because it’s not really rationally testable or verifiable. Ironically, she would despise that I’m trying to make everything rational 🤦♀️.
So let’s try this out in a way my brain can try to fathom:
I suspect both of us have hyper-empathy, which is a form of hypersensitivity where your mirror neurons work on overdrive most of the time.
She seem to be very intuitive and incandescent with it: I’ve seen her spot someone’s mood or mood change change from across an assembly multiple times. She’s used to discussing emotions and tend to like telling people how they are or how they feel. It’s probably a major way of communication to her. She’s impulsive and used to have her emotions and intuitions as compass.
I, on the other hand, have a vastly different setup. I have no working filter between my emotions and others, so I mostly rely on my left brain to sort if something comes from me or not, so no impulsivity for me. Emotions that are mirrored are usually faster than own built, which can be one way to sort. I come from a very rational family where talking emotions is not common, and it makes me uneasy; in particular, I’m always under the impression that I’m not supposed to tell what I feel from someone because i can be wrong and it’s invasive. Usually people’s feeling kinda percolate and i don’t have to think and sort all the time; sometimes I find people that are like rivers and it’s more difficult not to get caught up (I often avoid them). She made a tsunami category of her own. The first times we interacted, when she would ask a question I’d be like a fish out of the river, trying to find out where I was in this mess so I wouldn’t automatically answer what she wanted to hear.
Because my left brain is involved so much and I have to sort, especially with her, I spent a lot of time wondering how this works. Self directed emotions, like anxiety ( you’re anxious, then your brains finds a reason why) or self love take root and are much more difficult to sort than outside ones (like sadness at the loss of something, or love)
Interpretation of the whole thing (including where the feeling is directed), in the end, is made by your whole brain, so how well you know someone and things that scare you affect the results.
How could I tell her, when she says I’m xx, that no, I think she’s the one that’s xx and I just mirrored that? Especially when I can see she doesn’t want it known? How can I tell her that when I take more than a split second to answer it’s not that I’m not interested by her thing or trying to hide how I feel, it’s just that I’m trying to sort how I feel about it? How can I tell her that I’m not some sort of repressed robot when I act like that every time we talk? She hates when I say she’s wrong about me being afraid of her, because she can feel it, and I can’t quite seem to get around to make her understand that she got the feeling right but the direction wrong ( I fear not being understood, and disappointing her, and sometimes her finding out about limerence and kicking me out). She somehow seem to abhorr small talk; yet I crucially need it to set up a standard and not get it wrong all the time. The whole thing is a mess where every discussion escalate into anxiety or fear. I deal with this a little bit better now, but in the meantime she’s made a whole image of me in her head that’s not me at all . I think as I come out of limerence and get less afraid of the hurt feelings and annoyance at me denying something she felt, I have to find a way to tell her some bits of this, but it’s going to be a rough navigation…
And crazy. Is this whole thing made up by my limerent brain? While I don’t tell her, I can still plausibly deny it. So I get stuck.
S.anon,
Thanks for sharing – that’s brave of you to put it out there and I hope doing it has helped in some way with your processing of it.
It’s quite a lot for me to process and try and understand all you’ve said in the last message, but with a few goes, I’m getting there.
A thought – if she + your limerence don’t give you the processing time you need in conversations, have you considered at some point using a written medium (without addressing limerence in it) to explain some of what you want her to know? Or would you feel that would somehow make the issue bigger / worse?
Hi LaR,
Thanks for the reply! Sorry for the long and odd bit. Yeah, writing about it helps. I kinda mostly told SO too, although that’s a short conversation I’ve blundered between crying spells and never really went back on. I still vary between of course this is what’s happening and “you’re crazy go back to earth”
Anyway the point is that our very different perspective on this makes me feel like if we could communicate properly we’d be unstoppable, and this is difficult to let go off.
The problem is that this is a very big if.
I’ve tried writing to her, on other subjects, and of course this would be an excellent idea as this is my preferred media and it takes the feedback away. I’m still doing so, sometimes, and I realize I’m warmer to her when I write. The problem is that it’s really not one she can deal with easily. It stresses her, she overanalyze and then she rarely responds. I wrote somethings to her a year ago that she never acknowledged or responded too, and it created a lot of mess. She told me she has difficulties with messages.
So in the meantime I get other ways to cheat: it’s much easier to talk if she has her sunglasses on, because it blurs the message so I get space; it’s easier with other people so I don’t focus on her.
But as some point I’ll have to consider my needs and not only her comfort, so maybe writing is an idea.
all the best
Hi S.anon,
I‘m not sure if I understand your description of your communication. It seems quite complex and I’m not sure what you two are discussing that seems to be so demanding (if it’s not limerence etc).
But this
„ She’s used to discussing emotions and tend to like telling people how they are or how they feel. It’s probably a major way of communication to her.“
is something that let me pause a bit. I have to admit I don’t like it one bit when people are like that. They can tell how they are and feel themselves, but I dislike people who think they have the right or knowledge to tell you how you feel or what a person you are. It’s self-righteous and a bit annoying, in my eyes. But maybe I understand it completely wrong.
„ How can I tell her that when I take more than a split second to answer it’s not that I’m not interested by her thing or trying to hide how I feel, it’s just that I’m trying to sort how I feel about it?“
About this, I would just tell her exactly like that.
And maybe writing it like LaR said, might be an option, since you can choose words carefully and even if she doesn’t reply, she‘s read it and you can be sure she knows now.
Anyway, it sounds like you tolerate her way of speaking/expressing herself more than she tolerated yours. Maybe it would be a good idea to summarize your way of feeling/expressing yourself so she can „get“ it and tolerate it too.
She dislikes messages, so what, she can one time go a bit your way, it doesn’t have to be you who has to bend her way all the time..
(I might be a bit harsh today since I dealt with an acquaintance like that yesterday….)
S.anon, Coffeehouse
S.anon, I have had a go at interpreting what you said about how your communication style works, in case others here can then understand it better and be helpful, as they might have good ideas. Please tell me if this is a fair summary of what you meant, or if it is inaccurate, then why.
In my view, you told us your emotions are a mirror for the other person’s emotions. So if I project being afraid (just one example emotion, to illustrate), in your direction, you will appear (and even feel) afraid too. With time and rational effort you can untangle whether the afraid feeling comes from within, or as a mirror of the other person.
But in conversations, (including acutely so with LO) there is not the time to do that in the moment processing (what you called ‘sorting’ in the last message). So in this hypothetical scenario, I would then say “YOU are afraid” when in fact you might be mirroring me acting afraid myself. This can feel very unjust as the recipient of a “you are afraid” statement.
I probably experience this mirroring myself to an average level. I can see how some of it happened and happens with xLO, as her processing time is quite a bit quicker than mine – I also like time to pause and consider.
But I won’t pretend it is acute for me. Does anybody else here at LwL experience it, to be able to be more helpful than me to this discussion?
Hi @LaR and @Mila
Thank you two a lot for your time and answers. It helps, as I was quite down this morning. I suspect describing this also make me remember why I wanted to get this relationship right so bad, and may not really be helping with letting go.
@Mila thanks for your hashness 😂 I agree people like that tend to grate on my nerves too. Usually I avoid them a bit. And I suspect I grate on hers a lot. Don’t make her to be too horrible in your head juste because you only have my ( hurt) side of the story, she’s amazing; it’s just that we tend to hurt each other a lot. Opposite personalities is probably also a barrier to add to the list… Essentially I think she is a lot more judgy than I am, but mostly because justice is a lot more important to her than to me.
“I’m not sure what you two are discussing that seems to be so demanding (if it’s not limerence etc)”
Ha!! This is a good point. The answer is absolutely nothing. Nothing that should warrant this anyway. One of the problem is that the smallest of thing escalate, so anytime we try a slightly meaningful conversation it ends badly. Everything becomes demanding. The other day I had a few things to ask, a couples of suggestions, then one thing to address . With anyone else it would have been easy. In the end i had to battle to get one question understood, and the answer was no. ( It was an open question) Then it was too much of a mess to continue.
I’d consider writing, but I think I want these things written down even less than limerence. Its easier anonymously; but to discuss it openly I have to stand by it to her and I’m afraid I’m not sure I can . Sorry, it feels like I’m wasting you guys’ time.
@LaR yes! Thanks for trying to understand. To sum up, this is the same thing that makes that when you enter a room full of people that are laughing, first you smile (or laugh) then you ask what’s funny. It’s an old evolutive group thing that is true to some level for most people and sometimes goes to overdrive.
What is different from projecting is the recipient and the direction. Usually people think that if they project confidence people will like them because they like themselves. If someone feels confident, I will mirror this by feeling confident in myself too; if someone project confidence, but feels uneasy and vulnerable and probably not up to the task, this is how I will feel too, with the need to hide. I can’t tell LO that the problem is that she falls into the second scenario, and in what she teaches i’m supposed to communicate and feel confident with her so the fact that this fails sometimes feedback spectacularly.
It poses odd problems ( like people that make a compliment while self deprecating ( “ooooh you’re so much better than me at this thing where I’m so bad”) I feel bad and it usually end up with feeling like a cheat and either hiding or self-sabotaging) but otherwise the hyper-empathy is not a problem. It’s amazing when people are happy. I usually get along well with people, even if I have difficulties discussing emotional things.
The problem is the missing filter, and the consecutive split between right and left brain to try and protect being me. The only thing I have is the pause switch (to all emotions) that I use when I’m getting overwhelmed and I use it a lot with her. Arrogant comparison aside, it feels like I fell limerent for a bunch of kryptonite.
But I’m deviating a lot from limerence and i’m not sure it’s helping it to ruminate this, so I’ll try to step aside in the next days.
Good luck everyone one and thanks a lot for your support
I am just reading the above comments and am struck by something. All of the recent posts seem to have relationships between the posters and the LO which have significant shared interests. I must confess that I have no such thing, and wonder why my feelings for LO are so intense. LO is a neighbor, and there is no way that he and I would bump into each other at any kind of social or business function. We have so little in common.
The lack of common interests and difficulty in communication can be a turn-off. I may have mentioned that LO is irritable, and has lost his temper with me several times, only to apologize profusely later. One time he said to me, “I imagine you think I’m not a nice guy, but I am.” I didn’t respond.
I guess what I am trying to say is that LO gives me very little to work with in terms of a friendship, which we do maintain, and I wish I got discouraged more easily. Without the limerence, I would have been gone months ago.
I may have mentioned that LO is on a three-week business trip to Europe, and I have time to reflect. First I was relieved he was gone, then I missed him, now I am back to being relieved. I worry about my reaction when he gets back.
Perhaps you are enjoying the mystery of this person or the mystery of why he makes you feel the way you do about him. Your limerence over him seems to affect you way differently than the way limerence affects me. Often I am just sad and weepy and miss simply seeing LO and being around LF now. Whereas you seem to be very indifferent about your LO. Limerence to me just feels like endless heartbreak. A dark place I can’t seem to move too far beyond from. Tie in some regret for not acting upon, but how I should’ve interacted more with LO when she was around. Or sadness over what did I really do to make LF resent me so much now? All these questions and no good answers, and this is what I do, day in and day out.
I say the good thing in your situation is, at least you know what you’re working with. How he will probably react upon you seeing him again and hoping he remembered you by getting you a gift while he was away. My guess is if it doesn’t pan out the way you envision it, perhaps it’s that polite indifference you’ll feel that keeps you afloat. That may not be a bad thing.
To MJ:
One of the reasons that I am able to have some indifference is that I disclosed my crush to LO right up front. He said that he was flattered and that he was very tolerant of other people’s feelings. As I have spent more time with him, I am a bit doubtful that what he said was true. I am sure HE believes it, but I don’t see evidence of such.
Since he is gay, our friendship and his “tolerance” of my feelings can only go so far. I don’t have many regrets. I have been very good to him and his elderly mother, and I fail to see what, if anything, I could have done better or differently.
I DO get sad and weepy, but I am hoping that those episodes will become less frequent.
Thank you for your nice comments.
One of my past LO’s was my boss. He was 10 years older than me, and we had very different interests, AND he drove me crazy! Had a temper, always getting in arguments with people in the office, would’ve lost his job because of it except he quit first. Also kept forgetting to pay me. (Good thing I didn’t depend on the income!) But I had a massive crush on him and it seemed to be at least partially returned, with all the flirting we did, lol.
To SL:
We have to wonder why we’re drawn to specific individuals. I myself cannot handle being around people with bad tempers. LO has reduced me to tears, and if he didn’t apologize so profusely and touchingly, I would have turned cold immediately. He has an excellent way with words, and I have realized that his heartfelt apologies for his boorishness draw me in more than ever.
If he had any kind of reciprocation for my feelings, I would probably never be able to extricate myself.
Hi LaR,
just read your post but didn’t want to barge into your conversation.
While the agony of others struggling with their limerent feelings of desire, something I’ve done for years, I still struggle with resentment. Back then I thought once I could stop desiring them it would all be fine, I didn’t expect this long tail-end of resenting a harmless friend who basically did nothing wrong except being the same person all the time (a bit insensitive to other‘s needs, not able to talk about emotions but still loyal and friendly in his own way).
My problem is, which narrative is right? There is a practice recommended even by Dr L to put a negative spin on the narrative ,to counter the overly positive that a limerent brain produces. But now in my position I see what problems this practice might bring if LO is still in your life and you want a normal connection to them.
I welcomed the negative spin in the beginning since it signaled the end of limerence, but now I seem to have developed a stubborn habit of reacting negatively on anything XLO might write, do, say. It’s a bit like back when I glorified him- in rare glimpses I can suddenly see him „normally“, just like a nice person who as a bit dopey but still likeable, and like any other friend/acquaintance I have. But then there are gut reactions of aversion to pictures he sends, reactions to my texts etc, I feel that I have trained them on, or maybe it’s still all the energy I put into limerence that created an aversion to this source of bad feelings and energy waste, even if throttle itself is not at fault.
I thought all work was done by ending limerence, but it seems there’s work to be done now to not shun XLO for the rest of my life. I mean I could just go on like that and resent him until he‘s out of my life for good, it would be easy since he‘s not around anymore, and that would be that. But that prospect feels like limerence would have won in the end after all. By destroying a perfectly nice friendship that might be not very outspoken or deep, but still a friendship of more than ten years.
I just resent that I have to do even more work now, as it seems.. sometimes I think I should just give in and let resentment win, it seems so easy. Like, it seems I cannot act normally with this person, so it’s better for both of us to stay apart.
But I also have these moments where everything is fine, I can accept him again as friend etc. I want to go back to that and it doesn’t seem to be that huge step, now that I don’t think of him much and encounter these problems only when we have contact which is sparse now.
These gut reactions of negativity are a bit disturbing to me since I’m usually a positive person, and I don’t want to condemn him forever for something that happened to me (limerence)but he didn’t do to me.
I‘m just relating that since you seem to walk on this way too, and since I want to put in a warning word concerning this practice of forcing a negative narrative that’s not entirely true on a limerent episode, since there seems a price to be paid later on, if LO is someone in your life we want to keep…
„even if the source itself is not at fault“
Hi Mila,
A few thoughts whilst I am ‘in the mood’ if of any use. LaR will no doubt give a more considered response in relation to his own recent distancing experience.
(@Justme , I just barge away and don’t ask permission! At least with Mila. Ha ha !)
It really is still very early days relatively in your LE phase out. I think you must try to remember that and not have expectations of where you should be at by now.
Nor expectations of how you should be feeling.
It’s a bit like grief. One has to let it play out and it may not be as you expect it or want it to be.
In fact, you probably are grieving (?) and so maybe accepting of your ‘negative’ reaction to that at this time. Maybe your subconscious is really being very protective to ensure NO backslide at all. Because you know for sure you must not backslide.
Maybe your subconscious is a little over protective, but better that than the alternative.
You are not being nasty or hurtful to xLO/ your friend, but rather shunning of the interactions at this time. At this time of healing.
It will evolve no doubt to be warmer, as you are a good caring person.
Maybe when you see him again on the trip it will begin a new phase. Like you can start over kind of thing, like hitting a reset button. But what do I know eh?!
Imho,
“You are not being nasty or hurtful to xLO/ your friend, but rather shunning of the interactions at this time”
Though I know these were words for Mila, they are nice for me to hear too at the current point. But do you think there is a danger that the recipient could take the one thing (shunning interactions) as the other (hurtful)? How to navigate this is very hard. I don’t want to hurt her, but even more I just can’t hurt myself even a fraction more with all this. It’s a hard line to walk.
Hi Imho,
Thanks for your warm words.
„ Maybe your subconscious is really being very protective to ensure NO backslide at all. Because you know for sure you must not backslide.“
I think that’s a big factor, my subconscious is just fed up with the drama and wants to avoid any further feelings or contact for/with this person.
About the trip, I’m automatically looking for ways to avoid him, but then, why? in the rare moments of normality, I actually look forward to have a pleasant time with him since there is a 99% chance that it’s the last time we’ll go on a trip together. When I write it down like that, I really think I should curb that resentment and avoidance.
I cannot say for sure, but I think I’ll manage for the trip.
How is it going on your side?
Hi LaR,
I am glad some of my ramblings to Mila were helpful to you. They are probably more pertinent to you and your situation in hindsight.
On your comment about whether shunning interactions will be perceived as hurtful. I agree.
Maybe ‘shunning’ was not the right word. ‘not engaging in interactions ‘ is maybe more appropriate.
From what I get from your posts, I am wondering if your LO knows why you are distancing.
I remember well your comment that you had a conversation together that ‘it hung thick in the air for both of us “this has to stop” ‘
Of course, I do not know and can only read between the lines. But, if she is emotionally intelligent she will get it or else you have other worries to contend with.
You have to break free of the limerence to get clean as such to give any chance of a true authentic friendship in the future. I learnt that from the article that Sammy posted a link to. Seems you are getting there with freedom of mind etc….
Thanks for rooting for me too ( I didn’t respond to your last post but it was well received and on point)
Hi Mila,
Yes the trip may be a pivot moment for you.
The trip with other people and bring probably last time may almost force you away from the avoidance ( and resentment) and to a new peaceful calm way with him.
A new normal ?!
Hmm, for me it’s been rough. Will post something shortly
* being probably last time….
( Really must re-read before posting !)
💤
Hi @Mila (and LaR, IMHO and JMMO!)
I hope I am not barging either, but I wanted to say I totally understand the fatigue that comes with the “oh dear, more work?” point…
Mila, I agree with the others, there is no set trajectory for your grief or your feeling of loss!
I have to wonder, though, you seem, on an ongoing basis, so concerned with how LO feels. And I do understand that you are that kind of person…empathetic, and caring. I am not going to advocate you be otherwise…
What I am going to do is ask a question. I wonder, how is Mila feeling, the Mila that exists exclusive of xLO? …are there any areas that Mila is ignoring, or scared/anxious to take on in her life? I wonder, if LO suddenly went *poof!* and you had no more thought of him…what it is you would be up to? Thinking about? Anything fun? I’m just curious!
The reason I ask this is because I am wondering if the tired feeling of “more work” is really…and I am only curious…for the sake of asking questions rather than giving answers…if it is more a response to being tired of things you *really* don’t want to do.
When I was little, I used to get very, very tired while we were driving down the hill to drop me off at swimming lessons. I was afraid of swimming, an the teacher made me scared. I would get in the car, and yawn all the way there…wishing I could just collapse!
One day I asked my Mom “why does swimming make me so tired???” and she said “Because you don’t want to go.”
Anyway — you are kind, and you have helped me so much, with your kindness. And I ask these questions with kindness – because it is hard to be in an emotionally confusing place, I know.
I’m rambling…ok. Off to buy a big refill of my precious defrizz hair serum. Cannot go another day like this. :))
xo
csc
Hi Mila
You’ve been so helpful to me, I wonder if I might offer a reply to this. However I don’t want to be presumptuous – could you let me know if you’re happy for me to interject ?
Justmeandmyobsessions
Of course, shoot! I‘m always happy to hear opinions. I’m a bit schizophrenic myself and could lead a whole pro and contra discussion with myself here😂but I’m always thankful for other perspectives.
Hope you feel better about your ordeal!!
JM,
Barge away as far as I’m concerned too. I am doing important work here for myself at the minute by getting out and processing how I feel in the aftermath, so I’m always glad to get more/your opinions. I’m sure Mila is fine with it too.
You’ve become a really valuable addition to the LwL community.
Thanks everyone – especially your comment LaR, that has really touched me.
Mila – my original response has been very eloquently covered by LaR. Basically everything that I was going to say. However, if you will permit me, I’m going to offer my own perspective from a slightly different angle.
Firstly, I too am currently justifying my ill feelings to my LO as a necessary part of the healing process. As I said above, it’s not something I’m comfortable with, and I’m certainly not laying my own LE squarely at her door. However, there is an art – I have found (and am far from mastering) in understanding how their insecurities, behaviours – call them what you will – negatively impact those of us experiencing this altered thinking “syndrome”.
It has become increasingly apparent to me that my LO could not care less about my feelings. Despite having disclosed, knowing I have an SO, and actually having to sit her down and tell her I need space, not once has she shown a shred of evidence that she has considered my feelings. However, that aside, as I have been a bit more able to reflect – other things have occurred to me. In our early days, before my limerence took hold, she was dating someone. It didn’t bother me at the time – she was just a “mate” telling me about this guy. Except – she did nothing but complain about him. He was too “needy”, he wanted to get “touchy-feely”, he complained that there was no intimacy, that she would cancel plans or make it clear that she didn’t really want to be there. Time and again she told me that she had told him to “lighten up, be a man, stop taking it so seriously” etc. But she only ended it when he showed her up in front of her parents (inexcusable). She told me that the thought of being intimate with him disgusted her – yet the “relationship” went on at least another 2 months. When I asked her why she stayed with him, she replied “it’s nice to have someone to give you a hug”…. Eventually this man told her that he had felt utterly used by her.
Fast forward 2 months, she let it slip that she had seen another guy twice. This on did bother me. I needn’t have worried. Within 6 weeks, she had cancelled plans with him and had apparently been on and off with him for about 6 months. I went to see her one weekend when she was in a real emotional mess. This guy had sent her packing, really given her some home truths. She worked from home for 2 days, she was in such a state.
How much of this can I relate to? A great deal. As others have so rightly pointed out, my LO was in this for what I gave her. She is not sitting at home right now thinking “I really hope that JM is ok” or “I’m sorry that I didn’t set stronger boundaries to begin with” – she’s thinking “puff!” (she actually called me that once – in jest, but still) “why can’t he deal with his stupid feelings and just carry on with a normal working relationship??” The last bit she actually said…
I’m telling you all the because this is what I’m having to recall in order to justify following Dr L’s advice of turning the LE on it’s head. Like you, I’m very uncomfortable with it – I don’t like thinking badly of people. But maybe, as limerents, that’s where we get ourselves into such a mess. Perhaps we sacrifice so much of ourselves for these LOs that we overlook that very sacrifice, and are left with nothing but angst and bitterness. Maybe that is part of the journey that we all have to go through. I know that in all of my previous LEs that that is a journey I have had to take. For all but one of them, I now recall them with a certain amount of fondness or at least understanding.
I hope that my ramblings make some sense to you and that you can find some peace to deal with your experience as you need to.
Hi Jm,
Thanks for your perspective!
I recognize your phase, I’m sure there are many of my posts from that phase to be found here- describing specific incidents and reactions from my XLO that made everyone shake their heads , listing incidents that showed his insensitivity, his not being there for me, his not giving back any warmth that he wants from me etc.
I was full of a righteous anger back then, and surely he behaved and still behaves insensitively, and of course he was in for it for validation too. But he‘s been like this all the time and back before limerence it didn’t faze me for ten years. (And to be honest, aren’t we limerents also in it for validation too?)
I needed that anger to get into focus that he wasn’t really the person I was limerent for, that this person doesn’t exist in real life.
I think it’s a necessary phase to be negative, like you, but me, I‘m out of that specific necessary phase now and would like to get back to a nice non-intense feeling towards him instead of this resentful gut-reaction on everything he sends, because he actually does care about me and wants to be my friend.
For me, this gut reaction just shows that there is residue of past limerence.
I want to get to a state of mind where he is not different than my other not-so-close friends.
But I think, for you it’s absolutely the right time to see her negative sides. To be honest, I didn’t like her much from the beginning of your posts. She seems to be a very self-centered person without compassion. I honestly think you are better off without a friend like that- she‘s obviously using men, so she‘s surely prone to using her friends too.
Hi Mila
Yes. We absolutely are in it for our own validation. Sorry, I feel like I’ve answered your message with more of my outpourings, which was selfish and not my intention. I guess I’m a bit behind you and was trying to validate you.
I remain hopeful that I Dan move past this stage. Unfortunately I hold grudges, which I guess is another development area for my therapy. Sorry for hijacking your conversation.
Hugs and best wishes, and thanks for your support xx
Mila,
Great to hear from you about this. I too can write the whole “arguments from both sides” debate with myself and still not know which is right!
Imho already has some good points for you in response. Me, I’m glad to hear it is only taking 1% of your brain space now 👏👏
I think how we act in the moment towards our xLOs is being driven by F (emotion) more than T (rational thought). Time can be wasted telling ourselves “act like X” when we will “act like Y” anyway. So I think, let it play out more than telling yourself how it should be. I get what you’re trying to warn me about. It seems I can no more force positive narratives now than I could force negative narratives back then … whatever DrL told me was the ‘best’ thing to do!
For you now, I think #1 priority here is what feels right *for you*. Any future friendship will only work properly if both are happy with it – that means you have a 50% stake in that.
You mentioned to me a while back that my own mental health and wellbeing need to be my priority. That was and is a really important point. Those things have the potential to improve if I can keep xLO a bit more at arm’s length for now, or really nosedive if I don’t. Not a bit of that is her fault – it’s about myself and how I am now processing and reacting to things. My self-protection instinct has kicked in. There was no way to stay close to her and improve wellbeing at the same time.
A long while ago (while I was still very limerent), she said something to me like “if you ever needed space from me, I’d try to understand and give you it”. So far, she has been good to that word. She tends to respond to how the other person behaves more than trying to force them to behave in certain ways. Like, I don’t believe she will come to me at the moment looking for validation because she can sense I am not in the place to give it. That doesn’t stop me feeling the tug on my heartstrings when I consider how she might feel about me withdrawing.
Your xLO does not seem to quite have that ability to sense your feelings in the same way, or maybe it takes him longer to get there? Do you have experience from your previous LO2 to tell you how to get to where you’d like it to be with LO3? Or is the difference between those two people too big for that to help?
As for me … I don’t know whether by distancing I am doing permanent harm to what we could be as friends in the future. Hopefully not, because of who she is as a person. However, reluctantly I am forced to admit to myself that if that’s the price of protecting and improving my wellbeing now, then it is a sacrifice I have to make. My F brain seems to be deciding it for me, whatever my T brain may want.
It’ll be interesting to see what we’re saying to each other about this in the months to come!
Hi LaR,
thanks for the thoughtful response. I think I might be a bit further down the road than you, now I feel that I could steer my reaction a bit more than a few months ago. I feel that with a bit of effort I could stop the automatic negative reaction. A few months ago I too would have got to the conclusion that it’s better to let it play out, but now I think this negativity got too automated.
Its like a grip or tension of muscle that saved me once but is too tight now, I got used to it and need to let loose without thinking too much about it.
„ Do you have experience from your previous LO2 to tell you how to get to where you’d like it to be with LO3? Or is the difference between those two people too big for that to help?“
I‘d say yes, the difference between these people and also between the relationship I’ve had with them is too big to compare.
„ However, reluctantly I am forced to admit to myself that if that’s the price of protecting and improving my wellbeing now, then it is a sacrifice I have to make.“
I think that’s such a big sign that you moved forward. Once we can admit that it‘s possible to live without them if it’s necessary for our well-being, we finally see clearly. It’s still a way to go, and we would like to keep them, but if it’s not meant to be, we are prepared to say goodbye.
In your case, I think it’s a blessing but also a danger that she‘s more sensitive than my LO. With mine, I finally saw how he really is and that there will never be enough sensitivity or warmth for me, and this there is no danger of falling into that illusion and limerence again. With yours, you might need to be a bit more alert that you don’t get pulled in again once you deem it safe to get near her again. But then, maybe you‘ll have reached a conclusion of her and the whole episode that will make that impossible too.
@Coffeehouse.
Happy Easter, everyone!
@Mila.
I’m tempted to give you some more unsolicited advice. However, I will refrain from giving you any unsolicited advice because I know it makes you cranky. (Feel free to slip me a free chocolate bar later as an expression of gratitude). 😜
I like you as a person, Mila. I like you a lot. I think you’re authentic. You’re honest about your “pains” i.e. withdrawal pains. My intuition tells me you’re a lovely woman and most of your current crankiness very likely stems from your pains.
Thank God not everyone is pretending that limerence is a picnic. 😉
@MJ.
Wullo! How are you? Don’t worry. I have no advice to give you and no impressive words to impart. I just wanted to say hello. And huggles. 🙂
Also, I have a question – a question you’re under no obligation to answer. You once called me “such an inquisitive one” (or a line very similar). I am intrigued by your choice of word “inquisitive”. Did you mean inquisitive as in “inquiring” or inquisitive as in “strange”? Or did you mean I am both strange and inquiring at the same time? I am not offended by any/all potential meanings both intended and unintended. But I did find your word choice singularly striking. 🤣😁
@Norma Desmond.
I hear you’re looking for an alternative word to “survivor”? How about “relic”? Nope. That’s not helping at all. Okay, I’ll be quiet now. 🤣🤣🤣
Happy to see you’re fitting into the group just fine. 🙂
Sammy,
it seems I did it again, I seem to exaggerate a lot. I‘m not in pain at all, I’m just a bit tired of working on myself😂😂. This stuff with my XLO occupies only 1% of my brain, I’m not at all consumed by thoughts or resentment. he just sent something today and I felt immediately cranky, as you say, and that bothers me a bit. I could live happily without that friendship, but as I said, I feel that that means limerence won. And I’m not sure which way to go- live happily without that friend or live happily with a restored kind of friendship (that might peter out anyway due to distance) and having the smug feeling of having won over limerence.
I‘m a bit prone to crankiness these days due to stress and hormones, but fire away if you like.
@Mila.
No advice. But let me tell you a funny story drawn from real life that may make you smile. 😎
Sammy’s younger sister: **walks into living room** “Sammy! Are you watching that TV show about mermaids again? How many times have you seen that show?”
Sammy: “Um, this is only my six-hundred-and-forty-second time watching. Why? You got a problem with that?”
Sammy’s younger sister: **assumes a teasing voice** “Are you in love with one of the mer-people?”
Sammy: **embarrassed silence** “No!”
Sammy,
now I want to watch that show!
I think I know the show you mean! My daughter watched it x 1000s of times. I can actually see the appeal – bubblegum for the eyes and brain. The ocean looks gorgeous and there is this whole intrigue that mermaids (and mermen) walk among us. Delightful 🧜♀️. What’s not to love?
Happy Easter to you too, Sammy & everyone xxx
Just finished walking twice in Doge’s palace, wandering in the deep alley, and sitting down for my breakfast and expresso.
I’m so drawn to those Venetian masks, so want to put one on, looking more devilish 😈 to collect “innocent” souls unintentionally…. Jesus Christ on the Easter will pardon my purple soul…
I’ll get a purple mask! — getting at least one Souvenir in each place I visited.
A bad luck— forgot my passport in Florence, it’s in express mail, but I’m still feeling anxious.
A good luck: the Sun will come out from 1-6pm today and shine all day tomorrow!
I’ll take a Gondola ride only when Sun shines…
Last night, I was sure that thunder storm was going rack my window open, I kept waking up… this morning very windy and chilly…
Right now, it’s sunny bright without one thread of cloud! Venice sky is more fickle than our LO!
I’m about to board on a Gondola , after purchased a purple mask as you saw…☺️
Snow,
have fun in the sun today?
It makes me a bit happy to picture you in the sunshine with espressi and gondolas…
Thank you, Mila,! I the gondola ride, I saw the house Mozart lived! You can’t see it without taking the ride.
I’m lost again. It’s a norm of my life, in all arena. ☺️
I’m sitting in a tiny restaurant with only me in it, eating seafood risotto and vegetables. (Can’t stand crowd restaurant near canal.
Guess what they are playing: — Bailamos! No one is here to knows my secret 🤩, the chef and waiter are so courteous!
Got my passport and ticket to the airport, feeling relaxed. But my legs are breaking after walking over 20k steps everyday— 80% of time is lost…
You mean “by L’Amoors?”
Yes.it’s By Lamoor
Since it’s so quiet, the owner and chef sat down with me drinking free limoncello, he’s from Albania. So we chatted about the old communist systems and his immigrant life in Venice.
He asked me what I will do after the meal, oh oh, it’s getting a bit “risky” again…. I said my legs are breaking…
He’s dealing with his assistant now.
Ohlala…. I’m back to my room “safe and sound”!
Miri, the owner and chef, offered me one and half glasses of limoncello and wanted to give me massage after I said I was very tired and needed to go “home”…. And he dispensed his assistant earlier and left me alone with him.
Even he does not have a wife and two daughters (11 & 14), I would not stick around, no matter how much free drinks he gives me. He wants me to go back tomorrow and cook me Sea bass from the famous fish market right off his restaurant; I will not go back if he offers me gold to me!
Well, I took two hugs from him and insisted that I need to come back to call my gf in France. Don’t ask me how I got off…
Italians or people live in Italy can be crazy, and I need to hold an icy-cold face — a tall order for me!
On Easter, everything, devil included, can be forgiven, right?
https://imgur.com/a/6V9tr3E — 😈 with a 🦄🎭
I’m just going to put this little beauty down here. Yes, these are bonkers AI. But they work wonders for me! (For the guys, just substitute “he”)
I found this one to be particularly juicy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_FupakeXPE