One of the defining features of limerence is the soul-aching desire to be close to your limerent object. That’s because limerence is a drive to form a pair bond – in order to make babies, propagate the species, pass on our legacy, and literally create the most consequential and important relationships that most of us will ever have.
You, know. The small stuff.
A consequence of this powerful desire for closeness is that limerents often rush to entangle their lives with their limerent object as quickly as possible. It makes sense – you crave closeness, and so enthusiastically embrace any opportunity to get to know them better and spend more time with them. You want to involve them in your life, and you want to build shared experiences, shared endeavours, shared memories.
Unfortunately, there are downsides, and the rush to entanglement is a great example of how the early exhilaration of limerence can lead to later regrets. It’s another case of the total mental capture of limerence compromising good judgement.
Let’s work through some of the main ways that limerents instinctively seek entanglement and what can be done to mitigate the bad consequences.
Emotional entanglement
The first and most obvious form of entanglement is emotional. Many limerents have an overwhelming urge to share their thoughts, hopes and dreams with their limerent object. They overshare.
This impulse to overshare is usually motivated by a desire to form intimacy – to establish a relationship that goes beyond the utility of conventional friendship and involves real, personal connection. You want to know everything about them and you want them to know everything about you. You want to be “seen” by LO and understood as you really are, not just interacted with at a cordial but superficial level.
If the LO responds (as people often do) by sharing intimacies of their own, then that can feel like sweet, sweet reciprocation to the limerent, and encourage even more emotional entanglement.
A problem with this approach is that early limerence is often a time of insecurity and what might be called a destabilised identity. Many limerents will reshape themselves in a bid to become the person they think the LO most desires. So, they are trying to simultaneously build closeness, while being somewhat guarded about their true beliefs and identity in case it risks putting off the LO. They try to build intimacy while also keeping their options open a bit, just in case their true inner self isn’t quite what the LO was looking for. Quite the juggling act.
Another form that emotional entanglement can take is trying to help LO solve their problems. Perhaps they need practical support, like moving house or fixing a car – and you are the first to volunteer. Perhaps they need emotional support, and you are the listening ear. Perhaps they have more material needs and you help them out financially, or give them generous gifts.
Limerents tend to impulsively seek opportunities to embroil themselves in their LO’s everyday affairs, building rapport, building trust, maybe hoping that gratitude might lead to affection.
Fundamentally, the desire for emotional entanglement is a desire to justify the special connection that the limerent feels for their LO.
Mental entanglement
A closely related form of entanglement occurs within the mind of the limerent. The LO takes up residence in their imagination and begins to influence almost every aspect of the limerent’s thought processes. Examples of this phenomenon would be a limerent adopting the opinions of their LO, even if they run counter to previously long-held beliefs. We had an interesting discussion about limerence for people with opposing political beliefs a while ago, but it could be much less significant – things like adapting your tastes in music, food and drink, and entertainment. This is fairly benign, and could even be beneficial if it ends in you becoming open to new experiences that are enriching.
In more severe cases, though, this mental entanglement can lead to the limerent seemingly absorbing the LO’s personality. Adopting their quirky mannerisms or turns of phrase, retelling their jokes, pursuing their passions or hobbies, or visiting places that are connected to the LO in some way – literally haunting their footsteps in the hopes of somehow getting psychically or spiritually entangled.
Social media is a powerful force for facilitating this tendency to “mirror” the LO. It’s an online database of their opinions, beliefs, experiences and history; a perfect tool for total immersion.
One way that this mental entanglement manifests is that everything you experience makes you think of LO. The default mode of your brain becomes “how does this relate to LO”? You develop conversational monomania – all your anecdotes involve them, all your ideas spring from experiences you’ve had with them, it’s the only thing you want to talk about.
Many limerents become adept at masking this monomania, of course (especially if there are barriers to forming a bond with LO), but attentive people will spot it.
Professional entanglement
A third vector for entanglement is professional life. This is a special case of when the LO is a co-worker.
Limerents who have professional influence over their LO often misuse it. They show favouritism – giving LO opportunities that others would have wanted or granting them more responsibility, giving them effusive praise, plum work assignments, or bonuses and rewards. Limerent bosses frequently overdo it in their urge to demonstrate their high regard for LO.
Sometimes this recognition is not too objectionable – LOs can actually be good workers who warrant praise regardless of the limerent boss’s feelings – but it is likely to breed resentment in the overlooked.
This improper behaviour can even be mutually reinforcing. The LO is likely to enjoy the praise and recognition, and start to favour the boss back. Maybe they are extra diligent in their work, stay later, and seek to work more closely with the boss who is all smiley and praiseful and encouraging. Naturally, the limerence-addled boss mistakes this enthusiasm for romantic interest, and the limerence spirals.
Alternatively, the LO might themselves be exploiting the limerent’s desires for their own gain. Perhaps they cynically flirt with their boss to elicit favouritism, enjoying the power they have to get special treatment, opportunities or rewards. Or a junior limerent might be uninhibited and hyperattentive with their LO boss, oversharing, and perhaps using flattery to gain personal mentoring.
Work social events are another fertile opportunity for entanglements, especially if they involve alcohol. Naturally, limerents tend to seek out their LOs at such events, and often make fools of themselves. Many limerents have stories of toe-curling embarrassment over things they did or said when their defences were down, in the strangely blurred context of socialising with professional colleagues.
Regardless of the power dynamics of the situation, a limerent will always seek more professional entanglement if it means they get more contact time with their LO.
The consequences of entanglement
Perhaps the most obvious risk of rushing to entangle lives with an LO is that you do it before you really get to know them. That has consequences for you both.
First, it isn’t at all obvious that an LO will appreciate your overtures for intimacy, or that your imposing your secrets on them is welcomed. It could be an inappropriate imposition.
Second, your LO might not be a trustworthy person. Manipulators often seek intimacy and trust from other people, for the power it gives over them. As a limerent, you might naively offer it in the mistaken belief that it proves LO has deeper feelings for you than a simple friendship, but end up disclosing private and sensitive information which they can use against you.
Before you realise the ramifications, you share inflammatory secrets, or feel indebted to them, or find yourself as acting as an advocate or defender of them based on loyalty they’ve manufactured. You are entangled in their life of drama and deceit, and struggle to get out.
Third, there can be some simple practical consequences to entangling your lives too quickly. It can lead to a conflict of obligations – how do you balance your existing responsibilities against new commitments to LO? Can you afford the time and resources you are spending on them?
Prioritising LO inevitably impacts others. I know of a limerent who got his (much younger) LO to babysit his children, directly entangling her into his existing domestic world. His wife was not in the know about his ulterior motives, of course. Had she found out, I imagine she would have been less than delighted. There are worse stories too – of limerents emptying savings accounts, paying for lavish gifts or holidays, and giving away treasured possessions to try and impress an LO.
Fourth, other people are likely to notice such excessive interest in LO. That can have professional and personal consequences. People gossip. People make complaints. People act differently around you because your willingness to compromise your integrity to favour someone unfairly (even if to a small extent) changes their opinion of you. Similarly, friends and family can come to resent the apparent change in your personality and attentiveness, as LO comes to dominate your thoughts.
Finally, even if a limerent manages to avoid these external consequences, the emotional and mental entanglements can themselves be debilitating. Late stage limerence is often characterised by emotional instability, intrusive thoughts, and involuntary rumination. If you have done everything in your power to make LO central to your life, it will inevitably be painful and laborious to free yourself of that obsession once it sours.
Disentangling yourself
Fundamentally, the rush to entanglement is a symptom of a life that is not being pursued purposefully. It emerges from a mindset that is seeking limerent reward intuitively, unthinkingly. It’s impulsive, urgent and intoxicating – not a good combination for making wise decisions.
If you are free to form a relationship with LO, then entanglement should develop slowly and naturally through the progressive formation of a healthy connection, after you express your romantic attraction honestly.
If you are not free to form a romantic relationship, then entangling your lives cannot lead anywhere authentic or constructive. Be decisive and accept that reality – don’t try to keep LO close for emotional gratification.
If a new limerence experience upends your life and existing relationships to such an extent that you are no longer sure what you want, then concentrate on sorting out that personal crisis first. Don’t try to keep all your options open, and force conflicting relationships together in a grotesque tangle.
Once you clarify what you really want out of your life, you can act accordingly. That might mean a slow process of extricating yourself out of LO’s life and refocusing on your primary goals – a staged withdrawal that frees you from a complicated friendship that isn’t good for either of you.
As with a lot of limerence recovery, the key to disentangling yourself is to be decisive.
Be honest about your motives, remove the uncertainty, and you should be able to reverse course – and also avoid any similarly destructive entanglements in the future.
Slightly off topic, but tangenitally related, particularly the question of emotional entanglement. I broke no contact after 16 years to try and perform a staged withdrawal from my relapse on LE2.
This is probably a bit weird and selfish, and i have had to examine my own motivations a lot to do this in as proper a manner as possible. I did however feel I had to do something to move forward as my relapse manifested in the reemergence of the limbo the LE ended in.
A brief recap, LE2 followed a short romance with someone in a new social group when I moved cities for my masters, which i ended after getting breadcrumbed. Id been single for 6 years at that point after finding LE1 really hard and avoiding relationships. There was then extended low level but intimate friendship. I moved away and then started a slow withdrawal which i think eventually upset LE and she initiated NC because i said SO wasnt happy about our contact. I would guess LE was upset, but mostly on the level of losing a friend, although she also said she regretted the way initial romance resolved, just likely not at a level where it was a huge issue for her. I met SO in the direct aftermath so she has always been aware of LE, it Hit her self esteem badly and therefore discussion of limerence is IMO a no no, too many years have gone by. Other than that limerence has been limited, two Episodes with complete ‘closure’, and I think mainly connected to me dealing my dads alcoholism, his eventual death from that etc.
Why is this relevant? Mainly i have just had to be super careful about oversharing. I also know im sharing stuff that targets building intimacy as we always had shared interests, but my ultimate goal is to rekindle the friendship and then let it fade out normally and hopefully my limbo fades out. Ideally the limerence resolves itself and we can be distant friends. We live in different countries now so thats the logical outcome.
She seemed very happy to hear from me, if a little slow to respond, although the reasons given seem very reasonable. I have observed lots of limerent experiences in myself i havent felt for many years (overanalyzing messages, waiting for replies etc.) which LoL has better equipped me to handle and have improved rapidly, so disentanglement seems to be happening, but still there. The limbo dissapeared almost instantly, which is the biggest relief. I intend to tell SO about contact, but in right context. General midlife depression/transition means she understands I am trying to come to terms with stuff from my past and she has been helping me through that.
Anyhow, now i feel like im oversharing here, as ever 😂
LWL helped obv. not LoL
Hi Heebie Jeebies,
so you initiated contact as a sort of rewinding the film and let it develop/end differently? Interesting and daring method! Could go both ways.
Of course limbo ended because there’s contact and development, but aren’t you afraid of slipping back into limerence?
This is not meant to discourage you, I’m on the contrary very intrigued.
How do you plan to deal with it? I mean , you went NC on her one time, isn’t it a bit unkind to consciously plan a second ending of the friendship and awaken this friendship only for that purpose? I mean, she‘s got feelings too, even if they are only friendship-feelings.
Ok I sound discouraging, sorry.
But I really don’t want to judge or discourage, there are just many questions cropping up as to the How of it, but I can see where you are coming from, myself not being a fan of forced NC.
Hi Mila, no worries, you arent being discouraging, i had this debate in my head probably 1 Million times before i broke NC. Correct, essentially an attempt to reset and have a different, non-limerent resolution.
I think I confusingly mixed up my hopes and my expectations. My hope is my (relapse) limerence fades and we become friends in regular contact, which would also require SO to be happy about that (a big if). I think that is mostly genuine and not me convincing myself of untrue motives, but certainly not 100% so.
I expect that we will exchange news, but then likely not speak again for years. The potential for entsnglement is limited: We live in diff. countries, have no common social group anymore and young families, so space for even our closest friends is limited (i assume). This is ok if my limerence is better, and she might get some benefit as she beat herself up a bit about what had happened, although 16 years later i suspect it would be very limited. The risk to her is that it reopens some old wounds but also, again, probably limited.
I dont think there is much risk of full blown limerence, even at a distance. The relapse came out of the blue during midlife transition/Depression and manifested itself as intrusive rumination about the end of the romance/dating and then 3 years later end of friendship, which im describing as limbo. I was of course completely conscious that it was very weird and disconnected from real interaction, thanks to LwL but also just being more mature and self confident these days. That has completely stopped, and feels resolved, if that makes sense. Now i worry what she thinks of me contacting her and how she responds as a friend, but to a level not comensurate with just friendship. So maybe a worry that she is refusing emotional entanglement, who knows. Recently I also wrote to an ex gf (it ended well) and another old friend. With ex gf i had a nice chat, no anxiety, while the friend barely responded, but i wasnt particularly bothered.
The main person at risk is of course SO, but i think ultimately she knows about the midlife stuff and would understand my motivations, if she believed them. She is very non-limerent, to the point of almost opposite issues. Im being selfish in taking the risk, but ultimately saw no other way out given 16 years NC, and generally being quite a purposeful person.
So far the right decision, although a little unpleasant experiencing some active limerent feelingsfor the first time since LE3, 6 years ago, but they are fading, and im positive for the future.
P.s. I initiated LC, LO said 6 months later she was going to go NC and was a little upset, just to clarify. I dont think it was a major life event for her, but upsetting.
I do understand that renewed contact might get the whole episode down a certain pedestal and drama to more flat and friendly levels. I would think that it might help if you try not to worry what she thinks about it, though. Worrying leads to rumination.
It’s an unusual approach! I wish you good luck with it!
I really like the word „tangenitally“, by the way;)
Me too, i use it far too often…
Tangentially or tangenitally?
Looks like ive been spelling it wrong for years 😂
Sorry, I was just lamely joking because tangenitally sounds like genitals, a joke worth a 12year old boy🙈
Let’s just pretend it never happened 😂
@Heebie Jeebies
Wow! That was brave of you to do that.
I could never imagine myself breaking NC to even attempt that, although it’s been 16 years for you and only 11 months for me. I’m surely hoping (for myself anyway) that after all that time that he still isn’t living rent free in my head.
Still, my heart started racing just thinking about it.
The sudden entanglement with LO#2 was swift. Like almost instantaneous. More than likely because I just transferred from LO#1, like moving an investment from one bank to another.
I didn’t know about Limerence at the time, I had my head in the clouds just wondering what the heck was happening to me.
Now comes the arduous task of “disentanglement”
It’s like fighting your way out of a wet paper bag, wrapped with duct tape and trying to run through a maze at the same time lol
I’m totally ashamed of the way I acted with both LO’s especially the second one, him being a Narcissist and all. Ugggg… he must of had a field day. Uggg again.
It’s like my dignity and morels got thrown out the window.
But, that was then, this is now. With education and having a support network my feet are now touching the ground.
I almost feel human again.
Hells Bells I’m not doing this again!
Hey Anna, just a quick hi and to say I hope you are still going well in your recovery from the LE, your life learnings and your distraction-finding. Tentatively, it sounds like it.
I love the duct tape, paper bag and maze altogether analogy. Throw in a bit of wading through hot treacle with clown shoes on and we’re nearly there with the definition of getting out of this mad limerence entanglement lark 🙂
Hi Lim-a-rant!
I forgot about the clown shoes! I even have a pair. LOL
I’m doing well! Thanks for asking.
With help from my therapist I now have lots of tools in my Limerence Tool Box to take out when needed. (it’s a real thing that we have come up with!)
We are getting in to the nuts and bolts of it all ~ pardon the pun.
And I’m a Viking, so I have a few swords too!
We are working on the brain now and why it does what it does to cause and keep Limerence around. Fascinating stuff!
I’m looking at it all from the scientific aspect, stripping it down and toppling it over to see what’s lurking underneath.
There is lots.
What an extraordinary journey of what started out as pain and anguish and has now turned into enlightenment and self-discovery.
Anna,
It’s so good to hear you’re doing much better and getting more tools in your limerence box!
I’m curious about what your therapist has worked with you in LE from scientific ways, which could be added to what Dr L has provided us, and which you found especially helpful to your case. Care to share some when you get a chance?
I’m still feeling low with a stupid lingering cold/cough with a hoarse voice… so unpleasant! — body affects mind….
Keep feeling stronger!
Hi Anna,
yeah 11 months is still fresh, my sympathies, I woudlnt advise doing it then either (or in general…). I suspect many of us have behaved in a fairly undignifiied manner and even after 11 months it is still possible..
We had 2 years of friendship where the limerence was relatively low level, maybe 5 years post NC where it faded and wasn’t an issue day to day, and then 10 years where I barely thought about LO2, I even had an interim LE. Maybe LE2 was really ‘over’, moved out, and this is almost like a type of muscle memory or something. It is all a bit beyond me. It is definitely very different to full blown limerence, but unpleasant and I need to move forward.
Hi Heebie Jeebies
Yes, sounds like your brain went looking for it.
You mentioned that you thought that LE2 was maybe finally over and you were experiencing some depression/mid-life transition and BOOM your Limerent brain shone that searchlight. Unconscious of course, but it’s possible that’s what occurred.
I’m glad to hear it didn’t present as full blown Limerence tho.
That’s one of the most mindboggling aspects of Limerence for me, it’s not the PERSON, it’s the FEELING we are so addicted to. Blows my mind.
I hope it all goes well for you.
Keep us posted.
Anna,
“That’s one of the most mindboggling aspects of Limerence for me, it’s not the PERSON, it’s the FEELING we are so addicted to.”
You can’t said more accurately on what’s going with my case!
Now, when we know LO was/is wrong, not even Addictive Object, we know it was/is our FEELING, why can’t some of us get rid of the Feeling? Has our similar childhood caused such an addictive tendency in the first place, or is it combined with DNA drive (if alone enough, PA would do), or something more?
What has your therapist say about feeling? What if this FEELING also makes one more alive and brings in our bursted creativity? Kill all FEELING? Tame it?
You sound like you’ve learned how to reign your FEELING…
Hi Heebie Jeebies,
It sounds like you want to take a Tardis to travel back and correct something “improperly” ended and then come back to the present. But Dr. Who strongly opposes it: one can go back to peek at a piece history, but should never temper with it. Otherwise, the whole time/space dimension would be massed up or collapse, or something like that….
My concern on this novel experiment is: our mind, no matter how strong and clear, cannot control/alter its own neurological/chemical activities once they are instigated to go/react, stimulated particularly by the interactions with an LO, from the present or the past, unless the closure was “properly” done and the ghost of LO has really gone. But in your case, it wasn’t closed as you wished; the ghost is still lingering…
As Mila points out that your LE could be rekindled by breaking the NC, warming up, getting closer with xLO. Then, the neural brain may direct itself and slide down the LE slope, regardless what your executive brain wills. How are you going to prepare for that possibility? How could you use LwL wisdom to train your neurons and subconscious DNA drives?
Still, I’m very curious to see what would happen with your experiment. You’re brave! Good luck!
Lol, indeed Snow, maybe I am being a bit more Bill and Ted about this than Dr Who.
My theory is threefold:
(1) Risk of extensive contact due to distance, time, life situation is limited. I certainly wouldn’t recommend it for anyone who can easily rekindle an in-person friendship. Also, if you hear from someone after 16 years it is totally weird…. who would want to be friends with someone like that…. on friendly terms, yes, confidants, no.
(2) Two out of three LEs for me had very clean exits, literal mornings where I felt like I woke up after a long dream, one of them in contact, one with occasional contact, never NC (an this is pre social media). I had begun to start feeling like I could maybe imagine that happening if I re-initiated contact. So it is possible.
(3) Aside from LE3 (4 months long aside) when my father died and this relapse, I’ve not really experienced Limerence since maybe 2011/2012. On the recent quiz sent around I answered No to limerence, as I am experiencing such a limited set of symptoms, even if it is similarly distressing.
I guess I would put those as three initial conditions to be satisfied/tested before I might recommend it, if the experiemnt is succesful.
Heebiejeebies, ha, I’ll take this one:
“if you hear from someone after 16 years it is totally weird…. who would want to be friends with someone like that…. on friendly terms, yes, confidants, no.”
C’est moi! I lost touch with my friend/confidante (aka transferee) over a dozen years ago. But voilà, we are back to being confidantes. Not very easy to meet in person though. And I’ve never been limerent for him. But with my limerent tendencies I still have to be careful. Anyway, your point 1 is not bullet proof, you have been warned…
Don’t say that…. ha. Anyhow, am fairly confident it won’t happen, and actively don’t want EA levels of contact, I’m clear with myself I’d just like to be friends, but aware of the risks.
I’m confused, you weren’t limerent for your transferee? It sounds nice to have a new/old friend/confidant again, more good friends can only enrich your life, how did that happen?
Oh yes, I am lucky to have reconnected with an old friend. Just one of the benefits of limerence! 😉 Actually, in hindsight, I’ve found several benefits – I did need the wakeup call that it was.
To make a long story short, we reconnected because I was desperate for a distraction and an empathetic ear in the throes of limerence, and due to some touching points to my LE, I was reminded of him. I didn’t know of the concepts of limerence or transference. As it turns out, he’s been going through his own crisis so I have been the one providing most of the emotional support. But he said he’s happy to be my distraction in return for my help.
When I first contacted him he was too busy to have much time for me, but then his crisis happened and he reached out. (I’m ok with that – what’s a few more months when it had been years?) So by the time we connected, I was already a few weeks into NC and probably 70%? at least 50%? over the LE, but he helped with the rest. I don’t want to sing the praises of transference here because a) it’s very risky and b) who knows if I’m really out of the woods. But that’s just my story.
Hi Snow!
I couldn’t reply to you up top for some reason.
Yes, I’ll share some stuff sometime this week, sometimes I feel like maybe ya’ll are getting tired of my therapy oversharing lol.
Most of the tools I’ve adapted Dr. L most likely has blogged on. Sometimes when I’m talking with my therapist she will say something and my brain will recall reading something here. Can’t have to much overkill on Limerence, like go big or go home right?
But, yeah definitely gaining some useful tools that are helping, plus time passing and NC are helping as well.
Oh, hope you feel better soon, I hate being sick.
@Snowphenonix
Just seen your last post concerning feelings.
Nope, not trying to kill all feelings.
Sort of taming and reigning them, it’s more redirecting than anything.
The Limerent feelings are there and trust me I tried EVERTHING to squash them, get angry at them, drink them away but that’s the wrong approach.
I told my therapist I loved myself during the first part of Limerence, I came out of my shell, I was more productive, the world looked more alive than I could ever remember. Most Limerent’s say the same thing.
I never had that, and you and I discussed our upbringings and how obviously it had an impact on us going into adulthood.
Now the key words I said was “I loved myself” and my therapist pointed that out. She said “do you love yourself now”
I said “NO, I’m struggling here can’t you see! Damn it!” I’m back to square one I told her.
She said no I wasn’t
Those intense feelings I generated came from within me, they were mine. They were FOR me. They were directed at myself even though I thought they were directed at LO, they were not.
I know this is probably not making any sense to you so I will try and explain.
I believe that this is where transference comes into play.
Most of us here has had multiple LO’s and do we not feel the exact same way with each and everyone of them? Maybe some subtle differences but basically the same.
That was a crucial point for me. I had never really thought that through.
Our LO’s are just the catalyst, nothing more. They come along just at the right time during the right (or wrong) circumstances.
And boom we think that they had captured us but in fact we snared them.
We think that they are our answer to our prayers, our soul mates, they are going to “fix” whatever is wrong with us. We are in deep undying love.
IF ONLY THEY WOULD FEEL THE SAME WAY everything would be perfect. right?
Nope, that’s our attachment style talking
We are projecting , they are just a mirror.
All of the intense euphoric feelings are for us.
All of the unconditional love, caring, compassion and nurturing that we never got outside of ourselves.
LO triggers that in us FOR us.
Some say they would swim up a flaming river if LO needed us, that’s how much we need ourselves.
Anna,
You’ve expressed this so beautifully here – how it’s not “kill the feeling” but “redirect the feeling to ourselves” and work on “how to access it for ourselves”. (Snow, I hope this from Anna helps you develop some stuff that has had you wondering, about your creativity).
It seems a goal – for all of us prone to fall limerent – should be to learn how to generate these feelings / states of aliveness for ourselves. Even though intellectually I can understand it like you’ve explained it, emotionally I am not really past “I need LO to be able to feel that way”.
I don’t know how to word these questions to be most clear … does it basically not matter who the ‘object’ is/was? Or do we need to interrogate why our brains (when in flashlight mode) picked that object to throw all our feelings at? Is understanding the choice of object crucial to us (in a therapeutic sense) working through what it is in our past that is capable of inspiring that level of feeling in/for ourselves? Or is it more “it could be anyone / nothing to see here”?
There have been a few stories at LwL of bad or indifferent therapies / therapists. Yours sounds a really good one! If we ever ask or say anything here that might get in the way of that process, please just ignore or tell us it isn’t helpful. We’re just armchair amateurs!
Interesting point from Anna (and her therapist):
Those of us who work so hard to help and rescue others… (looking at you, Adam, for one) 😉 …are we doing that because we really need to be rescued ourselves? Do we strive so hard to help others because we are afraid to be the vulnerable ones to ask for help for ourselves? Turning into a corny amateur psychologist here: Is the child in us just screaming out to be rescued?
And regarding LaR’s point, I hate to be a party pooper, but I think I have yet to hear a story where someone was able to turn such loving feelings inward to themselves! If anything, I think the need for such intense feelings (as an LE) will dwindle with time and the feelings will turn into self-acceptance (if the effort is put in).
But I’d love to hear from someone who has done it …of course they are no longer ‘with us’, at LwL that is. 😜
Hey Trifles,
Hope all is good with you.
I think I agree that it can’t be ‘forced’ inwards (there is a reason, after all, that we look outwards) – maybe like you say it is a medium-term strategy which requires just the right level of effort / openness to effort, but without rebellion-causing force (easy as that, right, my statement is soooo clear to know what we need to do 😂). Kind of slowly detaching “whatever it is we were lacking or looking for and got from limerence” from needing the LO to supply it. Then knowing we’re capable of supplying it to ourselves and noticing if and when it happens, and what did it, and doing more of it (but I offer this as kind of ‘do as I say or would like to do’ than anything I’ve got especially good at yet!)
Anna might have more inspiration…
Anna,
I’ve read all your posts of last night and today, but got some deadline to finish and took Mom to her eye doctor…
“Nope, not trying to kill all feelings.
Sort of taming and reigning them, it’s more redirecting than anything.”
I’m glad to hear that your therapist’s approach. The LE energy level is the highest compared to anything else, killing it is to kill an alive soul! Redirecting it to artistic or creative works has been the top choice of countless artists/creators through the entire human history.
“The Limerent feelings are there and trust me I tried EVERTHING to squash them, get angry at them, drink them away but that’s the wrong approach.”
I never tried to get rid of it (yes LC/NC with ET, but in vain) after 8 years; I have benefited more from it than suffered. Once tasted what it was like, I have been trying to keep it alive; can’t imagine going back to the state when I was walking like a half zombie.
“I told my therapist I loved myself during the first part of Limerence, I came out of my shell, I was more productive, the world looked more alive than I could ever remember. Most Limerent’s say the same thing.”
I didn’t feel more loving myself but mostly “confused” about my neural system, although I did experience a peaceful Glimmer/“harmony” period (8 months). Then Father’s unexpected death and the unwanted responsibility for Mom made me immediately slip into the 3rd stage of LE, which also triggered more of the past traumas. LE played the double- bladed roles, making my cptsd worse and better simultaneously.
“I never had that, and you and I discussed our upbringings and how obviously it had an impact on us going into adulthood.”
Yes, I rarely had true self-love (but some vanity when younger), despite many had tried to give me superficial(flattery) or sincere amorous “validations”; none of their “givings” or efforts had helped. Whether I loved or hated them, they could not and did not make me to love and validate myself more. On this point, your therapist is right, which I also proved through my experiment — validation and self-love have to come from within. However, a Muse or catalyst, the “mirror” IS needed.
“Now the key words I said was “I loved myself” and my therapist pointed that out. She said “do you love yourself now” I said “NO, I’m struggling here can’t you see! Damn it!” I’m back to square one I told her. She said no I wasn’t”
If I have a therapist asking me that question now, I’d tell her/him: Yes, I love myself now, never so much in my entire life, despite my “savor” is gone. I do NOT care about how anyone in the entire world, ET inducted, sees me in whatever lens they have! Meanwhile, I love (Agape) and become more interested in/focused on life, people (ghosts as well), despite I still feel bored sometimes and get annoyed (by some old memories) when body or mood feels down.
“Those intense feelings I generated came from within me, they were mine. They were FOR me. They were directed at myself even though I thought they were directed at LO, they were not.”
“I know this is probably not making any sense to you so I will try and explain.”
I think I know what you’re saying here. I wonder if your xLOs were not Narcs, whether you’d have this much intense negative feelings directed at xLO/yourself. Have you thought of other possibilities? Also, due to the origin of our shared upbringings, don’t you think these resentful feelings (mine is almost all gone) should be directed to those originators (our parents, respectively)❓
“I believe that this is where transference comes into play.”
“Most of us here has had multiple LO’s and do we not feel the exact same way with each and everyone of them? Maybe some subtle differences but basically the same. That was a crucial point for me.”
I had mostly crushes and normal datings (xLO were all available, aside from ET), only this latest LO/LE could be considered as an “authentic” one based on Tunnov and DrL’s limerence concepts. All crushes with a glimmer made me feel the similar ways like in the beginning of LE. But later difficulties in dating/relationship varied due to personality differences, geographical distances, etc; but they were not the typical LE barrier — SOs, myself included!
“Our LO’s are just the catalyst, nothing more. They come along just at the right time during the right (or wrong) circumstances.”
Yes, they are a catalyst to shake our sleepy or restless soul, waking something up within us — mostly, our pair-bonding drive. We can’t ignore our biology, can we? Then, of course, our unsettled past ghosts (of cptsd) could be waken up as well. And a possible hidden Muse/Phantom, too!
“And boom we think that they had captured us but in fact we snared them.”
I rarely considered any of my x-crushers “captured” me, because it was always my Glimmer that caught men first without them knowing me at all. If they caught my existence first, they never became my LO, despite their and my own efforts. I think I know the exact reasons but can’t tell here. So you can say that in my cases, I definitely “snared” them first subconsciously trying to make them surrogate-parenting me.
“We think that they are our answer to our prayers, our soul mates, they are going to “fix” whatever is wrong with us. We are in deep undying love. IF ONLY THEY WOULD FEEL THE SAME WAY everything would be perfect. right?”
I did not know what problems I had until I began therapies; the fitting diagnosis only came in 2016. Then, I gradually understood what I was chasing for in those crushes/infatuations/relationship/marriage — an idealized surrogate parent. But when a couple of them tried to play the role, I instantly rebelled the “authoritative/parental” behaviors or tone of voices. Remember, my drunk-fist punched Narc LO6 (a high-nose, Oxbridge grad. Brit) in front of his friends/colleagues. I’m still proud of myself!
“Nope, that’s our attachment style talking. We are projecting , they are just a mirror.”
But why this LO mirror, not another one? What/How did our Glimmer choose? What does your therapist say about that?
“All of the intense euphoric feelings are for us.
All of the unconditional love, caring, compassion and nurturing that we never got outside of ourselves.
LO triggers that in us FOR us.”
From a psychological point of views, I understand the perspectives here; I’m feeling this unconditional love, caring, compassion and nurturing for myself nowadays. But what about pair-bonding? Can it be said that we want to be pair-bonding with ourselves? Then who is going to pass down our DNAs?
“Some say they would swim up a flaming river if LO needed us, that’s how much we need ourselves.”
As a small sized limerent, I am not sure I’d do that for a hot-n-cold, push-n-pull LO; however, we DO need to stand by own side first and fast!
Thank you for taking time to tell me/us your progress. I’ll join your discussion with LaR and Trifles much later… the first half week is always busy and somewhat stressful for me.
Anna, I hope more self-validation and self-love are on the way to your Unconscious door❗️
Anna, Snow,
“But why this LO mirror, not another one? What/How did our Glimmer choose? What does your therapist say about that?”
This question of Snow’s is one I really agree needs asking. I *totally* get the “LO is just a mirror” bit (i’m sold on that). But we picked *those* SOs out in the mirror shop, not another mirror. And then the question ‘mirror for what?’ becomes important.
Anna, to clarify, when I said “I need LO to feel that way”, I missed out a comma in the sentence and it skewed the meaning. It should be “I need LO, to feel that way”.
So (punctuation saves lives!…) I didn’t mean (in this instance anyway!) ‘I need her to be limerent back at me’, I meant ‘I need her around me to bounce back what the mirror is sending out and produce the effect’. Let’s say its enhanced creativity and productivity from the feel good chemicals – I also got this from my LE, mainly early on but sustained a bit. What I need to work on is to give myself those gifts more, but for now, at least some of the time, I still feel ‘I need LO (around me), to feel that way (creative, productive)’.
Typo – those LOs, not those SOs (eyeroll)
Hi Anna, Snow, LaR,
Sorry to butt-in. I am very interested in LO being a mirror for what we can learn to give ourselves.
When I was coming out the other side of the LE, I felt really scared that I would lose its beneficial effects, which for me were about self validation and feeling worthy, accepted, loved. The LE gave me these things, albeit with diminishing rewards over time, since there was a withdrawal in order to honour SO (mine and, I think, his too).
At that point, I was worried that I would lose what the LE gave me. However, now that LE has faded away to almost nothing / normality, I still retained the beneficial effects. Admittedly there was a “grey period” for a few months which was a bit ‘meh’ in terms of joie de vivre, etc. But that passed. Longer term, I have worked on myself, basically, and retain that physical and mental strength gained through the LE. I’d overall characterise this as a ‘waking up’ effect that the LE had, which broke the cruise control that I’d been living up to that point. The LE also coincided with significant family trauma, which resolved itself, and that has also helped.
I think that there is something about our childhoods and dealing with older parents etc that hits hard in mid life because, in caring for them, you start to realise about the care you feel you were denied as a child? I don’t know. There are hormonal and physical changes to contend with too. And just a jadedness with having to reclaim your personality and purpose in life, after the rigours of work, child rearing, etc. like so many others on here.
The main thing is that it is possible to retain the mirror effect, post-LE. This is something wonderful, I feel, it does take work and reflection, and you need to be able to accept yourself and be confident about that. Maybe some folks need professional help to get to that point, especially if they are especially prone to being down on themselves, prone to guilt, having suffered significantly as a child or from abusive relationships, etc.
Anna,
This is something I’ve been considering about my current LE and also have thought about with past LE’s…my LE”s are like fine wine – all very different. haha
I do feel, these days, jealous that my LO gets to have this high-quality, highly-concentrated love from me. It is the best part of me. The most giving, creative, fun, and alive part of who I am. It represents all of the things I love the most about myself!
That it shines forth from me when I am with him…It is less about him, and more about who I could be, more of the time. If only I knew how.
I am deep in a LTR. I am deep in an LE. I do believe that I need to leave my LTR, for reasons of self-love. I want to know who I am, independent of a relationship, with *anyone*. I have never known that person before.
Yes, I am completely unsure whether she, alone, would be enough. I am likely asking the wrong question but…what could possibly, possibly take the place of how I feel with LO?
What hobby? What experience? I feel like I could climb Mount Everest and my only thought would be “What’s he up to?” because other achievements feel hollow.
I am very aware of what is going on, psychologically with myself, right now. I am trying to see that as step 1. At least I am aware of the issue.
Maybe all of this is the message I desperately need, and have needed for years…to finally go it alone. To meet myself and to let whoever She is blossom, fully (For some reason, I have always felt I could not fully bloom in my LTR). To end my very cozy, very comfortable relationship, and to stand, finally, alone. To just give in, and let my desires– which are many– rule my life. Instead of what I do now, which feels like holding back the tide, most days. I’m exhausted much of the time.
I don’t know. But you make such a good point. I want to save myself, but right now, all I am is aware that I need to save myself.
Maybe the rest will come in time. I do love myself. And I forgive myself. Maybe too much, though. Maybe I ought to be a bit tougher on myself, and believe She can handle it.
“Another form that emotional entanglement can take is trying to help LO solve their problems.”
Holy hell I am so guilty of this. If I could help her with her problems, make up for her pos ex, if I could lighten her work load, if I could be an example of how a man should treat a woman, if I could be a better figure to her daughter, if I could … if I could … if I could only ….
I think, the first Shawn Mendes song I heard was either “Treat You Better” or “Stitches” both introduced to me by Momma. “And any girl like you deserves a gentle man.”
Momma texted me yesterday asking if she could use my last pain pill I got from the orthopedic doctor for my shoulder, and I told her yes you can have it. I helped solve a problem for her.
“LOs can actually be good workers who warrant praise regardless of the limerent boss’s feelings”
While we were equal colleges I know that this was also a pitfall for me. She really was a good worker and we both had to crunch to get done the task that was allocated to us both. It was straight from the top. Neither of us were really given a choice. But I praised her quite a lot to our supervisor. I admired her hard work and excellent work ethic. But when your co-workers would tease me that I thought she could do no wrong, should have been a flag to me that I was overcompensating and playing favorites.
“Thank you Adam”, “You’re so helpful.”, “I can’t lift this? Can you help me Adam?”
I went to the store to get some things we needed after working all day yesterday. Momma thanked me for doing it and made me some fried egg sandwiches for dinner. I really suck at frying eggs. I can make some damn good scrambled eggs though. Being helpful and thanked by a lady is my kryptonite. I unfortunately have the weakness of relating my self worth to how I help others.
When she would mother me about things was also deceiving. When she would make sure I ate lunch, stay hydrated in the summer, scold me about my smoking …
When Momma takes care of me when I am sick. Or literally almost spoon fed me the night we came home from the ER when I fell and broke my shoulder….
I am a damn mess …..
As DrL put it, “There is nothing so alluring as a damaged soul you’re sure you can fix.” – https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-glimmer-givers/
And, when they let you try, it can send you totally off the rails. You’re not the problem, you’re part of the solution. Therapy showed that was driven by seeking an emotionally corrective experience doing for some woman what I couldn’t do for my perpetually unhappy alcoholic mother.
A classic example is Billy Joel and Christy Brinkley. Based on her track record, any guy with half a brain probably wouldn’t go anywhere near her but Christy Brinkley is who she is and I doubt there isn’t a man around who wouldn’t take a shot at fixing her if she let him. She seems to have mellowed somewhat with age.
Tangentially, the relationships of rock stars and supermodels is mixed. David Bowie/Iman lasted until he died. Rick Ocasek and Paulina Porizkova appeared to be ok but wasn’t. Rod Stewart and his supermodel wives were largely unsuccessful.
Someone else added a comment somewhere, I forget who, that it is even moer alluring when that damage mirrors your own!
LE,
Rod Stewart just gets a new, leggy blonde every few years. They all look the same.
I don’t know why any woman would go near him.
@Marcia
I hear you lol
Rock stars with money uggg
Anna,
Oh, no. It’s not that. It’s just they’re all the same woman. Can he tell them apart?
But a rock star I find hot…not Rod Stewart… for an hour or two? Why not? 😀
“It’s just they’re all the same woman. Can he tell them apart?”
@Marcia – that’s frickin’ hilarious.
And probably not, with his cataracts.
LAR,
He has file boxes for each of them with momentos of their relationship. Their pictures are on the outside of the boxes.
Blonde #1: Rita. 1975-1981.
😀
Back in the 80s, LO #2 would buy me the Sports Illustrated swimsuit calendar for Xmas. My favorite models were Christie Brinkley, Carol Alt, Stephanie Seymour, Kathy Ireland and, #1, Angie Everhart.
When I married her, my wife could pass for Kim Basinger’s shorter sister.
Adam,
You are not a mess.
You strike me as a kind, humble, gentle soul that just wants to help everyone.
And you have a hard time letting anyone help you.
Even during your LE, all you seemed to want to do was help her.
You said “I unfortunately have the weakness of relating my self worth to how I help others” Bingo! As you said Kryptonite.
That’s what you need to start working on. You are more than worthy!
Anna
My dear Miss Lovisa here on LwL told me that when I first found this place that LO and her daughter (she was than single when I met her) triggered in me my need to provide, preside and protect. And I do think she was very right. My wife and I just celebrated 25 years this month and our boys are both grown. Maybe LO and her daughter were my answer to an empty nest? I thought that only happened to women…..
And thank you for your kind words Anna. I have been reading your posts as you came here, I just felt others were helping you along better and so have stayed silent. Some people’s stories hit a bit too close to home for me.
Hi Adam,
Congrats on 25 years! That’s awesome!
Miss Lovisa could very well be right, you seemed to have just switched your focus to someone that you felt needed rescuing and protection. Then Limerence followed.
We all have different reasons in my opinion why we fall Limerent, for me I am 1000% sure it was from my upbringing. I won’t go into detail cause I tend to babble, but suffice to say it’s a given.
I’m in my middle 40’s and met someone out of the blue and it just hit me like a ton of bricks. Never been Limerent before.
I remember sitting here about 4 months into my LE almost in tears saying “Why is he so hot and cold with me? Why is he breadcrumbing me? Why is he ACTING LIKE MY FATHER?”
It was a stark realization but right then I knew pretty much what was going on and I knew I needed help to get through it.
Definitely.
I never saw my LOs as soul mates.
I saw them as kindred spirits. On some deep level, we had a lot in common.
I still think that LO #2 understood me on a level that no other person ever has or ever will. My wife doesn’t because it’0s outside her experience and it’s not important to her. My wife thinks that she knows enough and loves me anyway.
It was like LO #2 could see right through me. There were times that we didn’t need to talk. We could look at each other and we just knew.
I’m going through something similar. I totally feel like LO can see through me and the other way round. We’re probably mutual, and I’ve imagined scenarios where I could just mention something of what I’m feeling in passing sometime, because LO seems so understanding of everything, but I’m so glad this website exists and I found that article that listed when not to disclose. It makes total sense, even if it feels like we can read each other’s minds, whatever this is stays in that (possibly imagined?) space than out in the world potentially doing actual damage.
I had been mostly one sidedly limerent with another LO for years before, and that was maybe somewhat easier (I didn’t realize that this was an actual phenomenon back then, just thought it was a crush), but this is the first time I find it reflected in another person who seems to get me at (what feels like) a molecular level. It does not seem real sometimes. It doesn’t help that LO seems to have some sort of savior complex and I’m the perfect damsel in distress. And I can’t deny that LO’s a good person and just knows what to do/ say to make me feel better almost every time we meet.
LO #4 said that I always seemed to know when she was down and what to say to make her feel better. She asked, “What do I telegraph to you?”
Once she said that, I knew I could read her and I started down the rabbit hole.
Here’s an interesting article: https://thoughtcatalog.com/brianna-wiest/2019/07/how-to-know-youve-met-a-woundmate-because-they-feel-like-a-soulmate-but-turn-out-completely-different/
If you check out the blog index below, you’ll find a couple of articles on Twin Flames.
Thank you for the article links! The Twin Flame ones were particularly illuminating, I had no idea of that concept! The Twin Flame checklist feels like it was written for me.
Another theory to add to the mix, with respect to who gets limerent for whom, is the MBTI theory – where everyone has a type, and chances are that you will be limerent for people having a highly compatible type. For instance, I’m an INFP and I’m limerent for LO who I think is definitely an ENFJ (who are supposedly INFPs’ golden pair.) I don’t know if that angle has been examined, and of course MBTI is also not a very scientific concept, but all of this is so fascinating when looked at conceptually!
Luna,
MBTI comes up frequently on LwL.
Check out: https://livingwithlimerence.com/how-common-is-limerence/
@ Lim-a-rant & Trifles
Lim-a rant
You said “Emotionally you need LO to be able to feel that way about you”
No-you want to be able to feel that way about yourself.
LO has nothing to do with it.
It doesn’t matter who LO is, they are just a mirror, a prop, an echo.
You said it yourself in flashlight mode you just pick an OBJECT to throw all of your feelings at. You are throwing them via LO right back to you.
Because that is what you need, you need validation, recognition, to feel loved, heard and worthy.
I’ll say it again, it has absolutely nothing to do with LO.
Trifles
Yes, right on! All of this is aimed at ourselves.
And you’re right, those intense, cloud walking, happy dance in your head feelings at the beginning of Limerence are not sustainable in the long run.
We would need to switch to some powerful illicit drugs for that LOL
What I meant was just being able to feel alive! Your LO (mirror) makes you feel alive right? To feel good about ourselves, to improve ourselves, to be happy about our accomplishments etc…
Now I’m not talking about getting to the point that we don’t need anyone to acknowledge our existence and go live as monks in a remote temple.
We do need people!
What I’m aiming for is to be able to validate myself, let myself feel worthy, accept who I am and maybe love myself a little too.
So when the right person does come along they will just be an enhancement not the reason to live.
So, guy’s all of this is just my journey, everyone is different.
So please just take from it what you want, I’m no expert on anything.
I’m just sharing some insights on what I have gained through hard work and therapy to get through this crazy making thing called Limerence.
It’s been an eyeopener for me and even though I still feel I might implode sometimes, I really am truly grateful for this experience.
Hi Bewitched,
Thanks for adding your thoughts on the bit above. I started a new thread as this is more of a personal question, and I don’t want to hijack or seem to downplay what others might want to talk about in that part.
Have you done much introspecting on the question of ‘why did I pick *that* mirror (LO)?’Or would you say that’s effort wasted compared to concentrating on the stuff you just mentioned about maintaing self-sustained improvement?
My LO is in some (character based) respects such a very unlikely choice for my flashlight to stop on. I confess I know I must have been searching for *something*, but it is trying to work out what! I am not averse to deep introspection (I did several years in therapy when younger to resolve some childhood stuff that was holding me back in the present). But LO doesn’t seem to symbolise anything too unresolved from that era. She is synonymous with being authentic, just letting go of being ‘bottled up’ and being your true self – good and bad sides. It is how she lives and I have integrated more of it to how I live through knowing her, and I feel a better version of myself for it (more confident, take less being put upon by people, choose my friends more wisely, don’t self censor or ruminate before or after events/decisions as much (apart from about her 🤣) etc. I was lacking in being able to do those things and she has helped me get better at it by role modelling it. It tallies with where bits of my life have been while I’ve known her, and especially circumstances around the point the glimmer happened and the limerence crystallised. And I think I know now, similar to what you said about yourself, that I am capable of all that whether or not LO remains in my life.
But that seems a bit shallow compared to what people find who dig deeper into their LE. I know you won’t know an answer to this (I’m just ‘a ‘riffin and ‘a ‘rantin it out here, not hoping for silver bullets) but I am thinking about whether, in my own case, that solves the ‘why *this* mirror?’ puzzle enough, and therefore if more digging is time well spent or effort wasted.
Hi LaR,
About why this LO / this mirror, I think it was honestly due to him signalling strong interest. It wasn’t until after that had already happened that I saw his admirable characteristics (he is very sweet, non confrontational, not egotistical at all, a ball of optimistic chaotic energy). But those things, while I admire them, were noticed until after I caught the glimmer and I think it was caught because he signalled strong interest, appreciation, and later over-stimulation etc. in my presence. I thought to myself ‘here is someone who is unmistakeably showing me that I have still ‘got it”. Then later I saw other things that I liked and it took off. But I am pretty sure that he started it all himself and that I was also receptive because I did have a need for a wake-up call, not to mention a need to self medicate out of trauma. The LE developed over time as well, it started in a minor way, there was a gap of not meeting, then it took off in a major way. Then circumstances happened (I’ve described them before) and we both eased out again – this took years – painfully, as it happened, in my case. I am not sure how painful it was for him (maybe not at all). There was very little ‘feeding it’ once it became apparent that the gorilla had been left out of the cage, as it were (the gorilla being limerence of course), it was just about extraction from the predicament, slowly and painfully.
So as you see, my reasons for limerence were not extra deep or noble, apart perhaps from needing to self medicate out of trauma. Other factors (losing myself, cruising purposelessly through life and not living life as I wanted), are more ‘cherry on the top’ things. What I am pretty pleased about was being respectful of the SOs through all of this. I can say that I acted with a reasonable level of integrity there (as did he).
I do think that its worthwhile digging into this ‘why this LO/mirror’ as a part of the process of working out what *you* want out of life. What makes LaR tick? What makes you happy (more work-life balance, more friendships, more self development, a closer romantic relationship with your SO, more achievements, more down time, less down-time, more physical fitness, more hair, fewer wrinkles , haha just joking with those last ones!). I do think that LE helps reflects this back at the beginning. But then, crucially, it switches to doing or maintaining those things for *yourself*. I think self improvement made with the intention of appearing more attractive to LO are actually fringe benefits that you can carry forward as you live life. Especially if those areas of self improvement are things which are of value within your hopes and dreams for yourself (which they probably will be, by definition, if your glimmer is for filling the gaps in your own life). May not be as easy to see for people with dodgy LOs, although the gaps may still be real.
Bewitched,
I am going to print out your post here and put it in my journal. You’ve said this so well.
And, your LE sounds very, very simiilar to my own…the way you describe him as an optimistic, chaotic energy…and that you were fairly sure he had feelings for you as well. I am struggling with that too. I do believe my LO has feelings for me, as well. And that is making all of this really difficult. If I were just crushing on him, that would be one thing. But, the feeling that it just might be mutual is what I am really struggling with.
Equally, I have been struggling with where *I* have gone. Your description of trauma, loss of sense of self, cruising purposelessly thru life, not living a life I want… Yes to all that. Years of pushing my own voice and needs down had me primed– but a cancer diagnosis (I’m ok now), approaching midlife, and this summer, the sudden death of my Dad…have made this particular LE into the storm of the century.
I’m so sorry you felt those things. But, I am grateful to you for sharing them. I feel them now, they’re horrible.
I’m going to go and look for some more about your story. I am really wondering what you did to slowly disentangle, and most importantly, to rediscover your way back to yourself.
oof – I’m so used to signing off work emails, I almost signed my name! haha – anyway… with gratitude, CSC
Bewitched,
“May not be as easy to see for people with dodgy LOs, although the gaps may still be real”
Yes, before I get onto other points, a few thoughts about this. I do really feel for anyone who has a dodgy LO, as I can imagine how much worse that makes their limerence picture. The topics of conversations between us, Bewitched, and others who often join in are quite different to dealing with that. Good LOs do produce their own problems – on average (not always), it is probably a tougher and/or longer process for limerents with a ‘Good LO’ to see the negatives, and persuade themselves of the need to away. But I never mean to imply that this position is worse than being in an LE with a narcissistic or otherwise dodgy LO, because those LEs often have no real sunny side. Thanks for bringing up that point in your last reply.
Thanks also, as ever, for such honest sharing of your story. I feel your experience is not uncommon – if someone who we’d find at least moderately attractive treats us right/shows interest (even if ambiguous interest), it is probably fairly easy to just stop the flashlight there and glimmer in that direction. Something like that happened for me too. I understand why you fell limerent for your LO on that basis, and why you don’t need to introspect loads more on it. And yes, btw, I did register all the very interesting information you gave before about the early part of your LE and how you started to know it was problematic!
I need to examine my ‘mirror’ a bit differently. My limerence, and LO choice, seem to have some things in common with what both you and CSC said.
“What makes LaR tick?”
These from your list are strong yesses – work-life balance, self-development, romantic relationship with SO, more down-time. I still have all my hair and am doing OK for wrinkles for my age, thank you!!! Physical fitness comes and goes as motivation but is an overall yes. More achievements aren’t especially a priority right now, but across life, yes definitely.
The big one for me currently that I’d add is the need for fun and spontaneity in various ways.
I probably lost a bit of my way/self over several years. This can be mainly put down to a combination of a painfully long (now finished) work project that skewed my work-life balance hugely (I am a bit of a ‘work expands to fill the time’ person), and ongoing dramas with older family members in both SO’s and my families. It crept up on us, but life started to get very scheduled and routined, and both SO and I felt “caged in” by these events and ongoing commitments, and both a bit powerless to escape any of them.
SO and I have lots we like doing together, which are good for us both – holidaying, time in nature and exercising, socialising by ourselves or with friends etc. But we weren’t able to make much time for it due to those other constraints. I don’t want to start an SO-bashing exercise here, but being truthful on one crucial point, she is not the most spontaneous person and puts a lot of rules and over-planning on herself, which ripple onto me – it means I can rarely just spontaneously say “let’s go and do this!” and get a yes. I’m working on encouraging her to be a bit more spontaneous, whilst respecting that she’s not really ‘that person’. It kind of ticked along OK when I was also under a lot of constraints (we were more equal), but since some of that lifted, I have had this big wish to cut loose and just live more freely – not freely ‘from her’, but in terms of my/our lifestyle more generally.
So that’s a large part of what was ‘in me’. It is not going to take you a massive leap to know what came next … LO (very different and more ‘P’ personality type) then comes along and offers the spontaneity I was after. A lot of what follows, you already know – I could very easily throw my needs against that mirror and get them reflected back in spades. I had a level of ‘limerence blindness’ over doing this, but never total blindness – I was still almost always in executive control and didn’t make any atrocious decisions. I made unexpected gains along the way.
SO even accepts LO’s role in my life for delivering some of this, knowing in herself that she can’t/won’t be all that spontaneous, but also knowing that I sometimes need spontaneity and seeing LO as (in what she – SO – says at least) an acceptable avenue for me getting that. That’s very respectful of my SO, and you see *this could all probably be just fine if I hadn’t got limerent*. But of course, I did, and then the morality side then kicks in and says, genuinely, that it is not fair on my SO that I depend on someone else (especially someone who I am limerent for) for meeting some of my needs. LO, by the way, seems quite unphased by anything I have mentioned here, and appears happy to let it keep ticking along without pressurising anything to change.
So enter the next (current for 4 months+) stage of trying to manage the limerence down. With that comes the learnings about what I need and finding avenues to get it through myself and others who aren’t LO. Also trying to subtly change things between me and SO, to allow for more spontaneity, but with respect for what she needs too. I also need to acknowledge that I myself was a big contributor to how life got so constrained/timetabled for us both in the first place.
As with previous times – I’m telling you these things because you were good enough to ask/prompt, but not in anticipation of silver bullets. It is all a work in progress but the advanced awareness (from LwL) and calmer feelings (from lowering contact) that I have about it all now are a good start. We’ll see where it goes from here.
LaR,
A quick response — to expect getting “everything” from one partner is WRONG morality, is a fairy tale of Disney World, that has broken many marital knots! I was brainwashed with such a morality, too…
Repost the NYT article here again —
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/29/opinion/sunday/why-you-will-marry-the-wrong-person.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare — Why You Will Marry the Wrong Person. I agree with the opinion.
Also you perhaps can change one’s spontaneity somewhat on surface/form, but you can’t truly take one “out of his/her home” for a road spin when the latter is naturally inclined to glue to the front of fireplace.
Thus, Dopamine personality type needs not just one LO, but several LOs for different purposes; If I can help it, I’d change to a polycule! 🙃
Snow,
I do agree with you!! And I have never wanted or felt it fair to try and change SO – only to figure out how we can be *mutually* with our character types to work the best we can as a couple. It is not so much that I’m outgoing and SO isn’t (I am the more outgoing, but there is not all that much difference in it) – it is more that she lives according to routines/rules/plans much more than I either do, or want to. I don’t feel SO is a wrong person for me, more just that we just meet some aspects of each other’s personalities well, but not every aspect … and I agree with you that it is *never* realistic to expect one person to meet all aspects too.
So …
“Dopamine personality type needs not just one LO, but several LOs for different purposes”
Yes, in principle – just without them being LOs if one has an SO!
The need for dopamine hits and for spontaneity in me may also settle down eventually into a less extreme pattern, as it is a somewhat knee-jerk reaction to life circumstances (most unconnected to SO).
LaR,
I did not mean to say that you’re outgoing and your SO are not, or you’re a wrong match. It’s all in the matter of degree and true willingness deep inside. Sometime, good actors of life could adapt others spontaneity or personality traits to some degrees but not fundamentally, not all the time, one needs to live one’s authenticity most importantly and ultimately in order to be mentally healthy and happy.
Look what my authentic, embarrassing, vulnerable monologues of years to the echoless, wanton ET and the ultimate disclosure have brought me to… ! It has utmost benefited my whole system, regardless of any of ET’s reactions (well, one can say silence is one kind).
Also conflicts between partners or friends sometimes are small but accumulative. Creative/flexible people don’t like follow rules and schedules, and often bend them in random, small, totally harmless fashions, which could cause a havoc on a more inflexible mind on other side (e.g. Aspies, my xSO was one).
Dopamine personality does not mean the persons always needs (wants, yes) to seek external stimulations, they either have a high level of dopamine (Fisher’s research) or can produce it internally, when using novel ways to handle aged matters.
Also, when a mindful meditation goes well, one’s Qi produces dopamine on its own and could lead one to physical and spiritual ecstasy, which then opens up one for all sorts of new says to look at and deal with the unchanged world. But it takes a hell of time and efforts of Letting Go ALL to circulate/push one’s own Qi to reach that point, which could last from hours or even a couple of days….
If one partner’s dopamine (or any of other 3 chemical types) scores much higher than the other one, then I think the relationship is going to produce more minor, even subtle glitches, sometimes can be major…
If polycule, then ideally one can have several SOs, no more LOs. Just don’t sign that piece of symbolic paper or wear one plain metal ring… which can symbolically either enrich/glorify or refrain/lock up one’s body, mind, and soul…
I still hang my beautifully framed marriage license on the wall, just as an important souvenir in my life. I don’t trash old memories/souvenirs, regardless negative or positive impact of those events, the goal is that a renewed, evolved mind no longer reacts to their negativity but remembers all the positive ones — why I can’t become a 100% Stoic or 100% Buddhist.
I disagree with any methods to erase some dark ink spots on the whole canvas of one’s ongoing life. Of course, one can cover them with layers of brighter inks, but Art of Life is very different from museum Masterpieces, which are meant to hang on walls, to show to external eyes, not to breathe or walk around or feed themselves on their own.
Snow,
That last paragraph is beautifully put.
I agree – each of us needs to live authentically to have our best lives, and not try to erase parts of history. This is also why I’d rather not erase LO from my present or future – as she is a contributor to the authenticity of my living – but you already see my conundrum well enough. Those with an SO need to respect differences, live authentically themselves, let their SO do that for themselves, as well as living authentically together where there is overlap. No easy job!
Maybe the world will drift more in the direction of polyamory in the future, who knows. Lots here at LwL express roundabout interest in it now. I see it as something that someone who is interested should commit to at the outset of a relationship, so that they and the SO agree the ground jointly. I feel an attempt made by anyone who is limerent towards polyamory – to rationalise the introduction of an LO to an existing pair – is probably doomed (I know you aren’t suggesting doing that, I am just musing). If anyone here has a story to contradict that, would be most interesting to hear it!
Meh, I’m going to have to do it my way… and face the consequences! I will know in a few days whether I’ve quit my job altogether or drastically reduced my hours.. (I’ve cried wolf about quitting my job -and not quitting- so many times my boss is really over it… a situation rather independent of my LO and not necessary to get into).. So at the moment my LO is under the impression I’m leaving in a few days (instead of perhaps switching departments). This morning he came up to me and asked that I promise to stop by once and while and get a coffee or something and I turned around and offered he stays, as desired, at one of my vacant homes just coming out of remodeling that won’t be sold or occupied for another 3-4 months. He lives 45-50 minutes away whereas this home is 8-10 minutes. He’s very interested and, for the first time in the 18 months we’ve known each other, we’re see each other outside of work tomorrow when I show him the place. And I absolutely hope this will provide more opportunity for us to be in each other’s lives… so there!
But here is the deal: there are no secrets with my family members and I believe both my LO and I are subtle and cautious in our relationship enough that it’s not threatening to anyone. From my first day it was obvious to pretty much everyone that there was something special between LO and I and, for months, I would be teased daily about LO’s attention from several coworkers until one day I indicated I was guarding real and strong feelings for LO. The admittion made them realize their mistake in continuously highlighting the specialness, like they didn’t realize the explosive power of the fire they were playing with… Amateurs!
My husband has known about LO since the beginning and they’ve met several times and they’ve both verbalized their mutual respect and admiration for each other “He seems like a really nice guy!”. (to which I respond: Yes, he is!) and this summer my son began working part-time with LO and I and actually they spend many hours together each week now…. the first week my son came home and said flat out: “I think LO must love you or something, because he just talks about how great your are”.
Oh boy….
I didn’t say anything at first but I’ve since told him and he’s okay about it. I think out of everyone he understands the most… he likes LO too and although LO and I aren’t meant to be together in a romantic way it’s obvious even to my kid that in another universe LO and I would be wonderful life partners. It’s simply the truth and everyone can see it for themselves….
But we live in this world where LO and I can’t have romance and that’s okay.
For inspiration I consider the story of Dolores Hart who was once a Hollywood darling but gave up budding stardom to become a Benedictine nun. She had boyfriend, Don, that never got married and would visit her every year until his death. During an interview about her feelings for Don she said, “Every love doesn’t have to end at the alter”.
I agree Sister!
Hi everyone,
I thought I’d re-share the below, as it seems relevant to this overall discussion. In my previous reply to Bewitched, I ‘did’ the process on myself a bit. But I think it could also help a few other people out there.
It is adapted from an old LwL post, and I can’t remember which, or even whether DrL wrote it, or a commenter (please come in and take the credit if it is yours and you are still here).
The phrase ‘LO glimmered for me at that time’ can be broken down in a variety of ways, to help us with working out what happened and why – different versions of the question, or trying several of them, may help different people:
-*LO* glimmered for me at that time –> Why him or her?
– lo GLIMMERED for me at that time –> What did the glimmer itself involve/what can that tell us?
– lo glimmered FOR ME at that time –> What is it ‘in me’ that caused, allowed or influenced it? What was I looking for that the LO seemed to provide?
– lo glimmered for me AT THAT TIME –> Why at that time in particular?
I guess if we know what entangled us, that’s the first step to disentanglement. Thanks to whoever formulated it like that in the first place.
LAR,
Information on those questions is scattered about LwL. There are blogs on glimmer, when/why we become vulnerable, attachment theory, and more.
Here’s an underappreciated blog: https://livingwithlimerence.com/why-is-limerence-so-powerful/
There’s a great line in it: “Put all of these factors together, and that there is some significant psychological heft.” – DrL
L.E – thanks. I remember seeing something like what I wrote above, altogether somewhere on LwL once and thinking it was very good, but I have now totally forgotten where. Will have a look at the one you’ve linked to.
Those are great questions LaR
I was thinking about that last night, what caused the glimmer for LO in me?
I had another insightful therapy session today and I brought that very question with me.
I have had 2 fairly significant long term relationships in my 47 years on this earth and although I experienced attraction, emotional rush, chemistry, pair bonding that eventually turned into love, I really can’t say that I experienced “The Glimmer” well, maybe a little but not in the way I did with LO.
So, why with LO? What was going on in my life at that time to cause that? And why that particular person?
I posed those questions to my therapist and we had a great talk about.
Now, I’m going to contradict myself here and say it does matter WHO LO is, but truthfully it’s all about the timing that makes the difference.
If I had of met LO say 5 years ago, I wouldn’t have gave him the time of day!
He was arrogant, full of himself and very selfish. Things that I actually loath in people.
For me anyway, it was the timing thing, I was not in a good place when we met, I had just gone through a crisis, had just moved and in unfamiliar territory, not many friends etc… just feeling down.
And then there he is. The perfect person to match my anxious attachment style at the worst possible time.
So, that answers all of the questions for me, Why him? What was going on in me at the time? What was I looking for? What did he provide?
I really do think that LO provides something that we are lacking in ourselves. Very deep down and they bring it to the surface.
I think that the majority of us here can answer those questions if we really think about it. Even something you may think insignificant, it probably isn’t.
And because I’ve indulged in a glass of wine, I’m going to share what I wrote in my journal today. I had some tears (usually a bit tearful after a therapy session)
~ Lo was an alarm clock that woke me up and jolted me back to a life that looked stark.
I’ve been asleep for so long!
Waiting… for someone to save me, for someone who I thought wasn’t coming, because they didn’t exist.
LO did exist, but just as a ghost refection of me.
That refection was my greatest coach, personal trainer, supplier of natural amphetamine, who helped me see what I really wanted, from myself.
I used LO as a search engine, a projector and then a mirror to focus on my dreams at becoming what I could be No, what I am because it’s already in me.
And through great pain and anguish he showed me that.
Now I have the blueprint, all of the puzzle pieces.
I just have to put them together.~
Hi Anna,
Thanks for sharing – even down to the level of your journalled points (for interest – when I very first started talking on LwL, I often needed a 🍷 to persuade me to share anything of note!). It was quite sad to read, too, that you’ve had to go through such a tough experience. But the sadness feels outweighed by the positivity that comes through about the realisations you’ve reached, and how they offer hope for a better future of stepping out of some darkness and into the light.
I’m going to hold back from trying to reply too much on the psychology of what you’ve said, as it sounds like you are already on a great journey with your therapist – I don’t want comments from me or anyone else on LwL to get in the way of the clear thinking you are getting from that.
I do just want to check I have understood what you said right, though. Are you saying you subconsciously picked THAT LO, THEN, because you had (whether conscious of it or not) negative energy within yourself that needed to be released? And that by picking a narcissistic LO, that was a way to get the negative energy reflected back, and so be able to more quickly get that energy out of you and get beyond it? This despite the feeling that he inspired ‘natural amphetamine’ and ‘dreams’ at the time … was the ‘dream’ to get beyond that dark place, and he a vehicle that sped that up? Or was he a vehicle for anything more positive (too)?
Apologies for these further questions but I just wanted to be sure I understood you properly.
Oh, I don’t mind the comments and question, LaR
If I felt that coming here would be detrimental to my therapy and healing journey, I would stay away.
I look forward to Dr. Tom’s blog every week and conversing with all of my fellow Lim’s.
We are all on the same journey just different paths.
Yes, seems like I subconsciously chose him, I do find it quite odd that he happened into my life when I was going through such turmoil.
I might be thinking too much into it but something was most definitely beginning to erupt inside, just didn’t know what.
And as I said to Adam earlier in this blog, why did LO start treating me badly? Why the hot/cold, push/pull? the ghosting so I would be constantly wondering what I did wrong?
Why is he treating me like MY FATHER DID?
Because I was used to that, especially growing up and that’s what I obviously carried into my adulthood. Didn’t think I deserved any better, it was the norm.
I knew then what was happening to me and why the Limerence.
So, the way I look at it is that LO gave me a gift, a broken one but one that was a long time coming.
Truthfully if he hadn’t come along when he did I’m not sure where I would be right now, probably nowhere.
And as you mentioned that dark energy would probably still be with me, simmering away.
Near the end of my LE after much introspection, I realized that he was just a mirror reflecting back to me that the feelings and sensations that I had were directed at me, not him. It’s hard to explain but I knew it, it became plain as day to me.
Yes, he was just a vehicle for me to get there, negative at first but positive now. Strange huh?
That’s when I sought therapy, to help me get to the root of it all and do something about it.
We had our first snow fall here today.
When I pulled the curtains back this morning normally I would of felt a sense of dread, that another long, dark, cold winter was on it’s way. But instead I was in awe of the beauty of it all.
It was a good day!
Anna,
Thanks for the answer – I do now feel I’m clear about what you’re telling us.
“LO gave me a gift, a broken one but one that was a long time coming”
Another way of looking at it – take the credit back from him – really you gave that gift to yourself!
“normally I would of felt a sense of dread, that another long, dark, cold winter was on it’s way. But instead I was in awe of the beauty of it all.”
Now this sounds very promising, and is one I can work on too! I am quite seasonally affected, especially by the daylight levels. Around October I start counting down the days until the winter solstice day, when the light level starts improving again. SO will say “don’t wish your life away” and she’s right! Will try and find more to appreciate about November and December this year …
I’m in the process of disentanglement. I went NC from February 2024 to April 2024 (when I allowed myself to look at LO’ social media story because it was 1 year since we’d first connected).
Then LO “circled back” to use Dr L’s phrase and they sent me a birthday email in June from their business and it totally set me off.
I met LO through a service they provide and they blurred the professional lines. I’m married and I’d never cheat (or share a lover…ugh!). I’d disclosed that I was attracted to them and they then really ran with that – doing things like turning up at my place of work.
I was bombarded with mixed signals. It was a case of mutual limerance and was so distressing that I had to take a significant amount of leave from my job.
My LO was a key person in a turning point in my life and they were one of the first people I told about me being diagnosed with a neurodversiy last year. We are so similar in lots of ways – and they totally stoke my heart.
I sent them a letter and a card in the summer. The letter was to apologise for my part in our EA and the card was for their birthday (a milestone one). They are almost a decade younger than me, but, they were in a position of power and trust in our working relationship.
It was just a case of right person wrong circumstances. They inspired me so much with their energy and zest for life and I’ve taken a lot of good from our interaction, along with the heartbreak and the hijacking of my mind.
I just found out on Monday thst they were in an accident and are in hospital and it’s made me feel so sad. I’m a very big hearted and empathetic person and it’s so distressing to hear this news.
It brings the disenfranchised grief to another level.
I will not make contact to be fair to both of us, but it’s been an awful lonely and sad week.
I have an amazing best friend who I can speak to, but shes got a lot on her plate at the moment, so any tips or support from the community would be very welcome.
*stole my heart
Welcome She (She like the movie!)
I see some similarities to my own. We were directly co-workers and she was along the lines of 10+ years younger than me. “They inspired me so much with their energy and zest for life” But that part I can get too. Maybe it’s still not having life put you through the ringer in later years as to why younger people are so upbeat. LO was so the opposite of me. Extroverted, positive, energetic and fun. And she brought those things out with me, when she was still here.
Thankfully she has only circled back once with me and that’s been over two years ago. But I still remember it. I was handing out Halloween candy last night and I had this girl dressed as a princess come to the porch and I remembered the story that LO told me of how she hated wearing dresses and when her grandmother would dress her in one she would go outside and intentionally get it dirty so she couldn’t wear it anymore. 🙂 Those kinds of memories are hard to let go of.
“I just found out on Monday that they were in an accident and are in hospital and it’s made me feel so sad.”
Not particularly the same situation but I can understand the sentiment. I found out through co-workers that she is now seeing a man much older, around my age, and I feel uneasy about it. It’s hard when you are not in a situation but still have the feelings as if you were. I hope that my apprehension about him are wrong and she has found someone that cares for her. I am sure that the hospital staff can care for your LO well and they will be able to heal and get back to health.
One thing that I have found helps, is to take all the energy you want to expend for LO and turn it to SO. However that comes out. For me I can directly tell my wife what and why when I give her lavish attention because I have disclosed to her about my limerence over a year ago when I found this place. Even if it is a dream. If I wake up I pull close to her and put my arm over her and lay with her.
Also face the part that LO plays in this whole drama. You disclosed your attraction to them and now they are playing a game with you. Everyone likes attention. I know, while I never directly said it, LO knew how I felt. Did she elicit getting more attention? No, I wouldn’t say directly. But she didn’t discourage it either. Her indecision to address my behavior was a decision itself. Most LOs, (especially when there is barriers like marriage) even if they are not directly manipulative, still play a role in the drama that is limerence. Even if to them it just someone crushing on them, they still play a part.
If you are going to hold yourself accountable, than you need to with them too. Which was the hardest thing for me to do. Even if it just starts out as physical attraction, as your time together lengthens it turns in to so much more. But limerence makes us idealize LO. In both our contexts we knew LO from work. So that’s just one aspect of their lives we know. So in our limerent mind we have to idealize the rest of their lives, and of course being limerent that idealization includes us.
The line from “How Can I Tell Her” by Lobo always sticks with me. “Everything seems right whenever I’m with you.” And that’s how it felt being with LO. But through the entire song he lists all his partners positive qualities while lamenting that he can’t tell his partner about this other woman. So he is asking the other woman how “to tell her about you”. You are stuck in this purgatory of appreciating your spouse while struggling with your attraction to this other person.
“She’s gone, she’s gone Oh I better learn how to face it.” (Sorry I use music a lot.) I have the luxury that she is gone and that for the most part NC is not difficult because she never initiates it. So my hardest temptation is avoiding her social media. There are others here that are in a more similar situation to you in your limerence that can be more helpful to you in that aspect.
Welcome She. Take a seat and talk all you want. Someone is around most any time of the day or night.
Hi Adam,
Thank you so much for your time in responding and for sharing your experience.
The first thing I did after reading your reply was to look up the movie “She”, as I wasn’t familiar.
…wow!! My LO is in hospital with burns, so talk about coincidence!
Sharing your experience on Halloween has given me an insight into how, in the future, I may experience revisiting my connection with my LO.
I hope to be comfortable with the reminders and to cherish the good energy they brought to my life.
Where you wrote “One thing that I have found helps, is to take all the energy you want to expend for LO and turn it to SO”, really resonates.
I am so much better connected with my husband and he has put in massive effort to grow with me in this mid point of our life. I sometimes wake up in the night to find that I’m holding his hand – we’re so much better connected despite and because of my LE – which now makes me feel a little guilty considering the current state of LO.
I am powered by music, so I absolutely love your musical references. SO and I connected through this in a big way.
However, my husband and I also connected through music and only this morning he made me a wonderful playlist for one of my favourite pass times – kitchen dancing.
I also now have a better relationship with my mother. I shared my experience with her and she told me about her LO and she said my Dad knew and she made no apologies about how she felt for her LO.
She told me I could hold my head high because I never lost my values and neither did she. She reckons LE happens far more often than we think, but, that people just don’t talk about it.
I’ve also realised that my LO was my wound mate. They highlighted the emotional pain I’ve carried and thankfully I’ve been able to address it.
It’s 18 months since my LO entered and hijacked my life and so much has changed.
I now realise that I was attracted to their darkness and their risk taking. I was concerned about their safety and had expressed this to them. The accident happened as many accidents do because of reckless behaviour. My LO really triggered my rescue complex.
They were reckless in their professionalism and I had highlighted this, but, they didn’t paid any heed.
Now I feel like people really do come into our lives to hold up a mirror to us. But, I think I have a bit of survivors guilt now.
Life lessons come in the strangest packages sometimes.
Isn’t life just one big accident though. I only met my husband by chance 30 years ago and my parents have a similar story.
Accidents definitely teach us, often in the harshest of ways.
Thanks again Adam for your response. It’s sounds like you’re in a good place now and that’s reassuring.
There’s such a lovely community on here, and that’s another one of the good things to come out of this recent life accident, my unintended collision with another human.
My heads is going to be up from now on for any sign of a glimmer and I will retreat at once. I’m so happy I didn’t sabotage the life I’ve worked so hard for.
Poor misguided fool that I was.
The whole experience has left me feeling simultaneously younger and wiser.
How Bizzare (one hit wonder by Newlands OMC)
“Poor Misguided Fool” is also another musical reference
…it’s a track from an amazing UK band called Starsailor from their Love Is Here album.
Just an aside to Adam—I believe I saw the movie She. But I have read all the books. 🙂 And they’re better. 🙂
She
“My LO really triggered my rescue complex.”
That is the entirety of my limerence. I made a joke post over the weekend about how I am trying to rescue a neighborhood cat that’s been wandering around. I set out food and water for her and pet her when she wants attention and now our cat smells her on me and she won’t let me pet her and always sits and sleeps by my wife while staring at me with judging eyes. 🙂 “I smell her on you!”
So I totally get that part of limerence. LO was divorced and a single mother. So intuitively my rescue complex came right to the surface. Here was a woman that needed a helping hand without her, at first, ever asking. I just knew what I needed to do. So yeah that part of your limerence I can totally understand.
Here’s one of Dr L’s posts on the “rescue complex” if you haven’t already read it and some of my very earlier embarrassing comments to this place. Though I will say that said comments being permanently posted on the internet sometimes it is therapeutic to use them as a barometer for the progress I have made.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-and-the-rescue-fantasy/
Welcome to LwL!
I’m probably the most “post limerence” poster here.
IMO, limerence recovery falls into 3 phases:
– Early recovery – in this phase you’re avtively overcoming limerence. It’s like the detox phase of addiction recovery. It’s hard. One day I got an email from LO #4. I saw myself looking at a giant snowball rolling down the mountain toward me and thought, “Oh f–k! I don’t need this.” I made an appointment with the EAP counselor the next day.
– Ongoing recovery: – in this phase, you’re out of crisis but you need to be careful about relapse.
– Post limerence -true post limerence may be hard to achieve since it might require a hard look at how and what got you there. That might require professional help.
There are a few hacks to help sort things out:
– Does this person have a place in my life? Not everybody who comes into your life is meant to stay there. Nail this one down and things can get a lot easier or a lot harder. But, you know.
– Is there a “Fairy-tale-ending?” If you could write a script where things would be exactly what you wanted, what would it be? What would it take to achieve it? Are you willing to accept the consequences of achieving it? Unintended consequences may or may not be unforseen consequences. Think things through.
– What would I do with the knowledge if I had it? This was my EAP counselor’s favorite question and she took a positive delight in asking it. Unless the knowledge is actionable, you don’t need to know it. Check out “If I Only Knew.” It’s in the Index at the bottom of the page.
I use the analogy of limerence as a mirror ball. It has a lot of facets and they can spin rapidly. You start focusing on one, another one catches your attention and you focus on that.
Limerence can teach you a lot about yourself and you can emerge better off than when you started the journey. Or, limerence can compel you to destroy your life and take people with you.
You’ll find both types here.
Keep reading!
Hello Limerent Emeritus,
I’m so happy to read that you are in post limerance. This is SO inspiring and makes me feel stronger and more determined to move on.
Thank you for your response. I really like your 3 phase framework.
I think I’m just re-entering Ongoing, once again, after relapsing in June.
RE: Hacks (very useful too)
“Does this person have a place in my life?” – the answer is most definitely a no.
“Is there a “Fairy-tale-ending?” – the answer is yes.
The fairytale ends with both of us walking away into our respective futures as happier and more fulfilled humans who left a shit load of baggage behind.
We both get to witness each other thriving and healthy, safe within our own individual fulfilled separate lives.
“What would I do with the knowledge if I had it?” –
The answer is nothing. I’ve already tested myself with this one. I’ve asked myself if LO arrived at my door to whisk me away from everything to a new life and there were no obstacles in the way, would I take their hand?
No, I wouldn’t. Why ? …because I don’t trust them.
There’s nothing without trust and they’ve proved that they cannot be trusted.
I deliberately overlooked their lack of integrity to suit my manufactured version of them.
I was lost when I met LO and part of my survival I think was to imagine that they were the answer to all of my problems.
Turns out they actually have more issues than I do. But, they are so cute that I was willing to overlook them in order to get my fix.
It was an addiction in it’s purest form. I’ll take the fix no matter the cost.
Everyone is human and makes mistakes, I am a very forgiving person and I don’t/can’t hold grudges. That’s why I still just wish the best for my LO despite all of their mixed messages.
But, I know for sure that I would never forgive myself for destroying my relationship with my husband.
As the saying goes, “You have two lives, and the second one begins when you realise you only have one”
Great job with the limerence recovery stages, LE!
I think I am at the first stage – early recovery, perhaps in the middle of this stage, trying to march on. I feel I would have gotten to stages 2 & 3 pretty quickly, if only there was NC. No NC is prolonging stage 1.
“Limerence can teach you a lot about yourself and you can emerge better off than when you started the journey. Or, limerence can compel you to destroy your life and take people with you.”
This is really true. The longer one does not try to actively get out of LE, the more is the damage caused to family. The sooner one realises the pitfalls and takes active action to put a stop, the better.
HI LE, I’m wondering if your post-limerence phase definition is mixing two things – maybe you mean Post-LE and Post Limerence? To be post limerence and understand how you got there would be to assume that for everybody it is a disorder, but I think ther are mixed opinions on whether it is a habit/tendency to be managed for risks, or a disorder to be cured.
Hello She. Welcome to LwL. This is am amazing place with awesome people. It has really helped me in a big way.
I read your story. I am sorry that you are feeling low.
There are some similarities in my story, as I was (am?) limerent for a co-worker. Based on my observation, NC really works and is one of the best defences against LE. For me, NC is not happening right now. However, there is more and more LC going on. So, now, I am at a point where I need to manage the few LO interactions, real or virtual. The interactions still make me a bit low, but I end up feeling better in a day or two.
As an example, yesterday, I had 3 LO interactions – one real and two virtual. In all cases, I did not seek LO, it just happened. And then, to top it off, who comes in my dream at night – LO, of course!
So, exposure to LO is not really in my hands, even if I do not seek it. Now I try to downplay these, saying to myself that they do not mean much, they really don’t.
I also tell myself that even if LO is also limerent, this is not really actionable (both of us have SOs), as LE mentioned, so why bother about it.
I think you did the right thing my not making contact. It must have been a hard decision for you, but you still took it.
Hope this helps. Adam and Limerent Emeritus have also given some solid advice.
Good luck!
Thank you ABCD for your reinforcing words. I still feel that not making contact is for the best and I am becoming more comfortable sitting in the discomfort of not knowing how LO is doing.
They’re not, and will never be, a part of my life and I’m almost 100% accepting of that.
But, there’s no point in lying to myself – there is, and may always be, a microscopic part of me that will hold onto the idea of them.
But, that’s all it is – my idea of them – my little fictional version of them. A rescue fantasy that my brain conjured up at a time when I was lost and vulnerable.
…and LO’s own human flaws played a part in the escalation of that fantasy. I’ve learned massively from the experience and I’m closer to myself and my loved ones because of it.
It’s just another unplanned life lesson and it could have ended really badly. I’m thankful that I didn’t experience any lasting/permanent effects, and on balance I’m more in control of my life now than before this LE.
I wish you all the best in moving on with your life purpose and thank again for taking the time to respond.
“literally haunting their footsteps in the hopes of somehow getting psychically or spiritually entangled”
EXACTLY, I had no idea other people had that creepy hope, would love a fuller blog post about that desire to become your LO
I often fantasize about merging with my LOs completely on a very literal mental/physical level, essentially blurring myself with them to finally feel ‘more’ than I am — entangling is obviously an expression of that
HJ,
It’s both. I consider myself to be Post Limerence. You can be Post-LE but still be vulnerable to recurrence. I went 20+ years from LO #3 to LO #4. LO #4 was the right woman at the right place at the right time and she hit me in the chink in my armor. And, she wasn’t even trying.
As a single person, limerence didn’t carry the risk for me that it did as a married man. LO #4 wasn’t the first woman to reach out to me looking for a shoulder to cry on, she was the third. I knew where that could take me. That’s why I saw the EAP counselor immediately. I needed someone to keep me straight so that I didn’t do anything I’d regret. As it was, I came pretty close.
Once I got out of the LE with LO #4, I went back to the EAP counselor to find the root causes of my vulnerability to limerence. I thought it went back 25 years to LO #2. As it turned out, it went back 50 years to my mother. My vulnerability to limerence was rooted in trying to achieve an emotionally corrective experience by doing for another woman what I couldn’t do for my chronically unhappy alcoholic mother.
After my father moved out pending the divorce, I remember my mother sobbing in the dark bedroom. I would snuggle with her and tell her jokes to get her to stop crying. When LO #4 told me that her BF was cheating on her, had (allegedly) assaulted her and she was crying as she was typing, guess what I did? Yep, I told her jokes.
I didn’t want to risk finding another LO later on so I did a lot of work to ensure that I didn’t. I might get lucky the next time and escape as cleanly as I did.
Make any sense?
“I might not get lucky…”
Hello everyone. Just thought I would put my status and thoughts here.
There has been NC for quite a while now. Mentally, I am feeling better. I was in (mild?) depression for some time during LE, once the glimmer wore off, mostly due to the hot-cold interactions with LO. Just before the NC, though, the interactions with her were very warm and regular. The barriers between us did not allow us to go beyond a point in LE.
The nice thing now is that I think my quality of life is improving now. I am enjoying things more. This, to me, is huge and welcome, as I am feeling better overall. This is what I tell my subconscious mind — you will feel better and better.
Do I still think of LO? To be honest, her thoughts do keep coming. Cannot do much about thoughts, right? I try not to ruminate about it, ruminations are also down.
It will be interesting to see how I cope if/when we meet physically. Any advice on how to handle that interaction would be appreciated.
Thanks for listening, all!
Hi ABCD,
Glad you continue to feel better.
Is the NC something you two agreed, or is it just chance / circumstance? Do you have the opportunity for it to be permanent now?
I’ve had varied experiences of coming out of NC spells with my LO (they are never any longer than 2, maybe 3 weeks). Usually I find it turns down the dial in my brain, if it has been longer than a week especially. So even if I ruminate ahead of the interaction, when it happens I am at the calmer end of how I can be around her. Sometimes it stays like that for a while afterwards. She can be overly warm at those moments, or the opposite – it’s not predictable.
Is there anything specific worrying you about how this interaction might be, or how you might cope within it or handle it? Might be able to suggest something more helpful if I know that.
Thanks LaR.
The NC just happened by circumstance. We do not know each other really well, and the interactions just happen in common circles. NC would probably not be permanent, at least now. I can imagine feeling much better if NC was permanent, as there is no longer the trigger of LO meeting.
I am just generally anxious before an LO interaction, worrying about how I will feel during meeting, and post meeting. In the past, sometimes I ended up feeling good, sometime not, based on how things panned out. For now, I am trying not to think too much about it and trying to not get too much worked up about it. Just playing the whole thing down, basically.
Mmm – others may have better suggestions for you here. Because my LO and I are close, and do spend one-to-one time, my situation is quite different and some of my coping strategies wouldn’t fit your scenario.
But there are also bits in common I think, so here is my best go FWIW…
Within interactions – if you know one will happen, take a bit of time alone first to calm your brain and go in prepared. If they are in the presence of others, identify people/things around you to distract in the moment if needed.
You can be cordial and pleasant to her without going OTT, and equally you can be a little more distant and ‘straight down the line’ without it seeming rude. It’s OK for relationships to ebb and flow like that. Or, if there is unspoken awareness of the feelings, she could well understand why things are as they are.
Try and make ‘you time’ if possible either side, for the interaction to happen, then to process it, and so as not to act it out on anyone else.
After – you said before that you are doing better with letting the feelings and reactions be, and not letting them get to you as much. Whatever you’ve done before to help with that, keep doing more of it. Try to interrupt any cravings in your head for more interactions promptly.
Oh – one thing I forgot.
If you think it’s gone well, work on convincing yourself that ‘really well’ only means ‘slightly well’. And if you think it’s gone ‘really’ badly, substitute for ‘slightly’ badly.
The difference between what we see as a great interaction and a terrible one is a much smaller difference than our brain is telling us. Time and again I have caught myself amplifying either good or bad aspects that to a third party would look no different. The limerent brain makes most of the rest up.
“The difference between what we see as a great interaction and a terrible one is a much smaller difference than our brain is telling us.”
This is very good insight LaR. Many times I engage with Lady Friend, based upon the mood I can tell she is in. Luckily we have become close over time in the past 10 months and I’m able to extract from her, what’s bothering her. However there are still many times I can tell she needs her space and alone time. If I’m not sure, I just ask and then excuse myself. Just last night I had an interaction that I walked away from, curious if it even went well at all. But when I stepped back and thought about it, I told myself it couldn’t have been then bad because at least I’m reaching her at an emotional level. In whatever way she is experiencing.
It is one of the most primary reasons I ended up in divorce court, because I never really tried all that hard to reach my Wife at an emotional level. Women I think, look for this is in a Man because it’s probably how they are hardwired. I try to reach Lady Friend in this way often and it seems to be working. Keeping my anxieties low and and any limerent desires in the closet..
MJ,
You speak so much sense there.
So often the marginal difference in how our LOs/MFFs behave towards us is down to nothing more than their mood on the day, tiredness level, other things they’re going through that we may know nothing of.
LOs are just people after all. They didn’t ask to be our LOs.
It can be so easy to forget this fact and go searching for the most minute detail of what we did right or wrong to make an interaction go ‘well’ or ‘badly’, as we see it. Our mood and vibe towards them may affect it a little, but normally not that much as I see it now. I used to waste so many hours thinking like this, but it has all but disappeared.
On men reaching women at an emotional level, I also agree. Massive over generalisation coming but few men are great at it – at least, we tend to be not nearly as good at it as women want us to be! When a woman finds a man who is good at it – understanding what mood they’re in and learning to produce an appropriate response to it – she will likely treasure that man. Maybe only as a trusted friend – I shouldn’t blur things.
What I’m saying is that if you’re showing that emotional maturity towards LF, she will like you a lot, on some undetermined level, for it. And I think she’ll want to hold onto you. You seem like a different person in how you are with this LF to how you explain your LO – in a way that is healthy for both people involved. I get that the slow burn is frustrating at times though.
Hi @ABCD
Wow, this is very inspiring to read. I am at the point of exhaustion, disappointment, and yeah, shame, over my current LE.
I guess I also have a bit of grief as I think it’s a “not in that way” situation.
I have gone NC in a prior limerence and it did work. It took…I guess about 3 months to feel pretty restored. That was a long 3 months.
I am wishing you continued progress and cheering for you. As someone in the thick of it right now, I really appreciate you sharing your story, it helps me to know others are handling their own situations, and seeing signs of recovery. 🙂
The phrase “my quality of life is improving now” is particularly nice to read. It really illustrates how total limerence can be. It colors everything, and when it’s gone, or starting to recede, it’s like the whole span of life feels…lighter.
CSC
To Night
Percy Bysshe Shelley
I
Swiftly walk o’er the western wave,
Spirit of the Night!
Out of the misty eastern cave,
Where, all the long and lone daylight,
Thou wovest dreams of joy and fear,
Which make thee terrible and dear,—
Swift be thy flight!
II
Wrap thy form in a mantle gray,
Star-inwrought!
Blind with thine hair the eyes of Day;
Kiss her until she be wearied out,
Then wander o’er city, and sea, and land,
Touching all with thine opiate wand—
Come, long-sought!
III
When I arose and saw the dawn,
I sighed for thee;
When light rode high, and the dew was gone,
And noon lay heavy on flower and tree,
And the weary Day turned to his rest,
Lingering like an unloved guest,
I sighed for thee.
IV
Thy brother Death came, and cried,
Wouldst thou me?
Thy sweet child Sleep, the filmy-eyed,
Murmured like a noontide bee,
Shall I nestle near thy side?
Wouldst thou me?—And I replied,
No, not thee!
V
Death will come when thou art dead,
Soon, too soon—
Sleep will come when thou art fled;
Of neither would I ask the boon
I ask of thee, belovèd Night—
Swift be thine approaching flight,
Come soon, soon
******
Night followed by Dawn, makes one closest to his heart and soul, knocking at the gate of Self… 🐦🔥
Thanks LaR. The stuff you’ve said sounds pretty helpful.
Yeah, the idea is to be dispassionate before, during, and after. I seem to be more confident of this now than before. Fingers crossed.
Agree with you on our limerent brain’s amplification mechanism 100%. I have been guilty of it most of the time. Hopefully, as the limerence fog settles down (someday), I will be able to think more rationally.
Hi ABCD,
I am glad you feel better and I really, really hope that you don’t need to return to feeling down over your LO.
In addition to the excellent advice from LaR, I wanted to mention something that really helped me get over my LO – which was taking control of the situation. Dialling-back how I thought about how the encounter went afterwards was really enhanced by also taking control over the encounter. For example, saying things to myself like “I am going to go and say hello at the beginning and ask a brief question, but then move on and stay away from LO after that”. For me, doing this took away the need to overthink the actions of the other person because I controlled it, rather than waiting to see what they did or did not do. There is much less need for rumination on it because possibilities and permutations were reduced right down. Afterwards, like me, you may also be happy that you were polite and friendly, but not ‘let down’ by any lack on LO’s part. Of course, if they do not react nicely, this will set your thoughts off in another direction. (This is highly unlikely, based on what you have said about your LO, they are much more likely to be friendly, to some extent). I feel for you, only seeing your LO rarely. But I think this strategy of putting LO in their box then moving on is even better when you have not seen them after a long NC/LC. Its like, “hey! Lovely to see you, how are things?!”, giving a bit of attention, then swiftly moving away and staying away. We all know that feeding the limerence really is a false ‘win’ and that we will have to pay for it later, somehow.
I am in the same boat as you (seeing LO rarely), but honestly I barely thought about him at all recently. It feels pretty good, I recommend it.
Best wishes to you, ABCD. Chin up, you can do it!
ABCD and Bewitched,
glad that you, Bewitched, also feel it’s good to take control since I doubted my advice to Imho somewhat after giving it. We are quite similar in our approach at the moment, and it seems we are quite out of the woods?
For me, best was a mixture of taking control, but still being in the moment, observing neutrally how LO behaves, how I behave- not judging, simply staying awake to it, since this sometimes gifts me with little moments of truth and reality (like „he likes me, but not that way“ can sometimes be seen in little gestures).
What I mean is, having a plan is crucial, and then let it roll without losing control, but staying observant.
This also for Imho, hope her event went well or will go well.
Hi Mila. Your strategy sounds good. I am trying to do this these days with regards to LE. I am accepting the feelings that I carry for LO, rather than fighting them. However, I am keeping those feelings in my head, and not letting them translate to action.
“like „he likes me, but not that way“ can sometimes be seen in little gestures”.
Both LO and I have had plenty of these. This is probably one of the reasons why this LE is going on for the amount of time that it is.
ABCD,
no, I meant: she likes me, but not in any limerent, romantic, man/woman way, just the way she likes any other slightly pleasant person in her acquaintance. I‘m nothing special for her/him.
I am taking notes ! thank you both LaR and Bewitched – it benefits me as well as ABCD who asked a great question.
I have the weight of it being so crazy long since we last met and highly likely it maybe the last time we ever meet. A perfect situation to feed limerence for the highest highs and the lowest lows.
Hi Mila, please don’t doubt your previous advice to me. You didn’t trigger any more rumination than I was already in, in fact last few days I’m more in real time.
And yes, I do need some kind of strategy and take control of the situation with what’s in my control. Thanks
Hi Imho,
“I have the weight of it being so crazy long since we last met and highly likely it maybe the last time we ever meet. A perfect situation to feed limerence for the highest highs and the lowest lows.”
I hear you! That does sound like an especially punchy limerence cocktail. I’m not even going to begin to suggest what to do – your long term LwL confidantes will do much better. I’d come down in the tent of Bewitched and Mila, and like my own suggestion of earlier today – try to work out where you want it to go – which I get will be very conflicting – and plan to take measured actions to control it going that way.
Your fellow LwLers, motley bunch that we are, are batting for you and happy to listen and help if you need to offload!
All the best to us IMHO! Hope we do well.
Imho,
„I have the weight of it being so crazy long since we last met and highly likely it maybe the last time we ever meet.“
Ok, well, that‘s something I never encountered, two of my LOs moved away but it was always a given that we will keep contact and meet from time to time.
I have to say that no one but you can really know which approach is best, and maybe not even you can know. Maybe take the pressure out a bit by realizing that it doesn’t have to be the last time. In these times it’s highly likely too that you meet again, if not per chance, then you can make it happen any time if you really want to.
Also, take the pressure out by maybe deciding how you want to come over at this event, but leave some room for accepting things as they pan out without your control, because you cannot control everything, only some basic stuff about yourself.
And there can be several different outcomes with which all you can be ok afterwards.
You‘ll be fine, I‘m sure😘
Thanks for the great advice and pep talk, Bewitched!
You are absolutely correct. I can only control my behavior. How LO reacts is totally up to her. Either way, I should not be too happy or too let down.
In the past, the issue was that my mood was dependent on LO behaviour. What you have said offers a path to take more control over the situation, rather than be a hapless spectator.
I will let you all know how it goes. Cheers.
Mila,
„(s)he likes me, but not that way“
That’s been the most powerful tool in my arsenal, noticing evidence of that – and one that I really want to push back to front of mind!
Both LO and I have had plenty of these, a lot of evidence that we like each other. However, we need to leave it at that.
ABCD,
I’m not sure if you mean evidence of ‘liking’ or ‘LIKING’, so I want to clarify what I meant in my mesaage.
I got/get evidence of two different things from LO – things that say she definitely ‘likes’ me, but also things fairly strongly that she doesn’t ‘LIKE me’ (in ‘that’ way). Both have been helpful in their different ways. I have come to realise that the second set of indicators means more like ‘is not mutually limerent’ than ‘doesn’t LIKE’
YLEMV!
It is so very hard to give up on it when there is evidence of LIKING (in that way). I look back at some of the interactions, ones that were f2f and after a long time of not seeing one another. When we would eventually see each other f2f, it was like fireworks and bombs going off. The LO was agitated and all over the place, our interactions became painfully shy and inhibited (on both sides). The evidence of physiological distress was there (sweating, shaking, etc). It was absolute torture and bliss, to begin with. Then we’d go back to virtual interactions, always only interacting for work, very professional and in messages / mails with lots of other people cc’d in. The latter were minimally interactive but provided a lot of rumination fuel (reading between the lines). It had to stop. So I made up my mind to stop it, irrespective of how he felt. It was clear we had both prioritised our families. I do believe that you have to decide to put a stop to it, in whatever way works for you. Its knowing your own mind that really matters.
It was super-painful, which meant staying away from him, as well as filling my life with other things and people, was so crucial to stop me getting down.
Bewitched,
“It is so very hard to give up on it when there is evidence of LIKING (in that way)”
Given you had that evidence, it is a massive massive testament to you that you extricated yourself. Serious kudos.
“When we would eventually see each other f2f, it was like fireworks and bombs going off.”
Oh I hear you, i really do. You have the best ways of putting things (consider that a Limmy nomination) Imagine incorporating that into daily life (no option to remove her from that) and that’s been my last 18 months. The fireworks do get less in those circumstances but they’re still there. You said about how your LO was fidgety, agitated etc when you meet ftf. I can dial all that down (practice makes perfect) but not dial it out. LO just seems to accept it now as ‘part of me’, and she is much the same in her behaviours anyway. I don’t know whether to feel happy or sad about that (I’m just riffing it out, no need to try and solve it for me)
To add to what I said earlier, at this stage of my LE, I am totally exhausted with all that has been going on, it has surely taken a huge toll on my mind.
So, I really want this LE to end, and I am confident it will end if there is no contact with her.
The primary reason for my current distress is that NC cannot happen, and seeing her (still) triggers me, making me remember past LE stuff that I would really rather not.
Hope I am making some sense. Have a great weekend!
ABCD, it makes a total sense!
It will be over sooner, IMP, if you EXPECT and take it as a “new” norm — you’d always be in contact with LO, and NC with her has become impossible just like I can’t go NC ever with Mom and have to take care of her logistical needs, until she exits life — the only existing solution!
Thus my mind is at peace🕊️
Hi all. Thanks for all your comments.
I am afraid the latest LO “exposure” did not go well. We did not get much chance to interact, and when she did walk by once, she ignored me. Which is fine, I took the hint and kept to myself.
As such, I am not seeking her consciously, and as I mentioned before, I want to put this LE behind me.
However, after the episode, I felt terrible and low. Guess that means I still carry feelings for her, even though I cannot pursue? It looks like her around me is still a huge trigger.
I hope I feel better in the coming days. I was seriously hoping this NC would have helped, but the latest episode proved otherwise.
Anyway, I will chin up, take this in my stride and move on.
Thanks for listening.
ABCD,
I’m so sorry to hear what just happened (which did not surprise me). I’d say “sorry” on behalf of your LO, if it helps.
A penny thought here: would you try a little bit Stoic way, to EXPECT and calmly WATCH this inevitable phenomenon to happen again and again?
Thanks Snow, appreciate your message.
Yes, now I am taking this LO behavior as baseline. Now that I am thinking about it, in a way, this is a good development, as one of the major reasons to have kept me hooked was the feeling that we were mutually limerent, which we may have been for a while.
Now that this uncertainty is settled, I can move on.
Ouch, ABCD, that would really hurt -and don’t beat yourself up for feeling low. Glad you can see some positives in it for your recovery though. Hang in there.
Sorry to hear that, ABCD!
But maybe for the best? It might be a hurtful step forward. I do understand feeling low though.
Her validation is nothing you need, you know! You have a good life without her, don’t let this pull you down. It’s all on your head, so it’s all in your power.
Wish you the best!
*In your head.
Hi Mila. I am responding to your texting situation with your LO here, where you said that your LO holds his responses back.
I can relate to this.
When I look back at my LE, in the beginning my LO provided a lot of validation (many times in SOs presence, pretty gutsy), and I provided little (I am also an introvert by nature, and well SO is around, LO is an extrovert. Then there was time where we both provided each other with lots of validation, perhaps equally. In the most recent phase, she went cold (I think?), and I was also cold.
I am not sure about the latest phase, but am fairly confident about the earlier phases.
Sometimes I feel she goes cold so that I can pursue her, but no way of knowing for sure. But seeing multiple instances of this makes me think there is some weight to this theory.
I also feel when she goes cold that perhaps she is wired this way. Look at us — always giving the benefit of doubt to our LOs!
I think you did the right thing by cutting back on your communication. I used to get a lot of texting anxiety earlier, we are not texting now, so one less LE related issue to worry about.
All the best for the upcoming project with LO!
Hi ABCD,
these are interesting details. I‘m kind of intrigued by your SO- while I understand now that she‘s wary (as you said, your LO was quite openly validating you in front of her), I wonder at her meeting LO without you but openly refusing to meet together. Wouldn’t that spawn a talk with you about the Why?
But don’t go there , please, if it starts ruminating. It’s not that important since you already know she‘s wary.
When I read your situation, I can see your Lo‘s point too, maybe she felt like me, having given a lot of validation and not got back the same amount, and now she stopped it?
Our LOs cannot know what’s going on inside us, and when we get „cold“ because of trying to get out of limerence, they just see the cold side.
I think when I weigh validation etc, I subconsciously throw in all the pain and rumination and fight that went on inside me and that LO doesn’t know anything of.
When I get the feeling „it’s enough, I cannot give any more“ it’s also because of this spent energy of limerence, but LO doesn’t know it and cannot count it in. Also, maybe he counts the same way and spent a lot of energy and that’s why he feels he gave a lot, and I can only see what he gave in „reality“.
Of course that should be futile if one just wants to end limerence, but I feel that it isn’t. To understand some going-one’s helps me find peace of mind.
You are absolutely right that reducing limerence-related worries is the right way to go. I think it was quite normal that this last encounter shook you, it doesn’t mean you made a step backwards.
@LaR: many thanks for the support. Yes, I am trying to look for the good in this.
@Mila: thanks. Yes, it hurts like heck right now, but I am trying to come out of it.
Hey ABCD,
I must say that I did not see this coming that your LO will be unfriendly. I am so sorry it panned out this way. Please do not let it affect you. Like the others already said above, use this to your advantage.
If I had to guess, I would say that the options and explanations for her behaviour are one of two things: either she was busy concentrating on others and had less time for you perhaps feelings have disappeared/cooled down, or, she is perhaps a tiny bit immature and is punishing you for the long NC or something else. She could also just be playing with you a little bit and trying to make you chase her. I think I remember you saying that that this has actually happened before that she went a bit cold, so this is perhaps a quirk of hers.
The reason I am pointing all of these things out is because you have always been very resistant to seeing bad sides in your LO. But maybe, just maybe, it will be helpful for you do see her realistically. Might she be a bit immature? Its not a huge criticism, is it? Its pretty small, really. So it doesn’t hurt her to think this way. It’s is a useful corrective to protect yourself. Re-examine that pedestal that you’ve maybe put her on. There are probably other things too. Maybe her conversation is lacking, maybe she is too short, speaks with a horrendous lisp…. has terrible taste in music… Look at this way – if ye ever got together in reality what would need to happen anyway is to see her in reality. Just bypass the honeymoon period in your mind and think it through to the future like what it would really be like being with her, maybe not so great?
The other things that you could think about (or that helped me) were contrasting her behaviour and that of people you really trust. For instance, how your SO would never play games with you, etc.
I think that you must be feeling pretty tired of these interactions and the up and down nature of the aftermath, you have already said this much in previous posts. You could use that tiredness also as a spur. For example, it really doesn’t matter what she thinks of me because I am tired of this (and she is not someone who I can consistently trust, for whatever reason). She is not for me. Therefore, no need to feel down. There will of course be the inevitable “come down” and the grey gap left by coming to terms with the fact that this LE needs to finish, for real this time. For me, I eventually got tired – it took 6 years!!!! I really did need to fill that gap with something positive. [I had a set back this week too, but I am still chin-up and looking forwards.] The great thing was that the grey gap phase didn’t last very long as there were up-sides to not having my brain hijacked by LO and these just became stronger and stronger.
A strategy could be to you do something you love and maybe connect with people who share those interests.
Hello Bewitched. Thanks for your detailed message.
All the scenarios that you have mentioned look plausible – (a) she wants to end this due to cool down of feelings, (b) she realised she may be making a mistake, (c) this is on purpose to keep me hooked.
I have not had the opportunity to know her much, and I feel that has hindered my ability to remove the halo from her head, and see her as a normal person.
With this latest episode, I am thinking this is the time this LE needs to end. I mean, I was thinking this for the past couple of weeks, but this episode has just made it more clear. If she wants it to end, I need to want to end it too. If she is trying to keep me hooked, again, I need to break away from the spell, and end it. So, the end result stays the same.
I am aware that this will cause sad feelings in me, perhaps, this is what I am feeling right now. I am spending lot of time with my family and into my sports, so hopefully, this period will pass without too much pain.
Hello LwL friends. Just wanted to put down my thoughts post the recent LO non-interaction.
I am feeling a little bit better, but still not out of the doldrums. Its probably because I found out that LO wanted to get together, but SO shot it down. SO definitely senses the LE.
Look at me, still not able to look beyond LO for validation.
This recent exposure hit really hard, not sure why. Maybe because we had warm interactions for a long time.
I am not able to look at the “bad” sides of LO, mostly as I do not know her well. I tried making up her “bad” sides, but was not successful. I cannot not like her for long.
In contrast, when I wish her well (in my mind), I seem to cope better.
To sum up, thinking positively about LO helps more than thinking negatively about her.
Hope I am make some sense.
ABCD,
I know you have SO, does your LO have SO, too? Sorry I can’t remember clearly with so many new cases…
Please “cherish” the fact that you don’t know your LO well, so as to able to keep amicable feelings while interacting with her and fond memory while she’s not around.
“To sum up, thinking positively about LO helps more than thinking negatively about her.”
I can resonate with this very well. Anytime I was reminded (by recalling/answering some LwLers’ curious questions) all the past detailed, disappointing events in my complicated LE, my mind was dragged back to the past LE’s pains, which then makes me feel very demoralized and melancholy day and night, while all the positive sides of the LE and the good memory of ET —the warmth of remaining amber, seem to have all disappeared… 😖
Polarizing two sides of the same coin is not helpful and perhaps harmful to the attempt to recovery from LE. I want to run away from the triggered/agitated/upset states of the mind; but clearly know that I will be triggered again in the future if I don’t truly get over the residual LE pains/wounds — meaning to reach to a mental state in which I could non-reactively, peacefully recall/describe the both sides of LE/ET.
So I sit with the blues, sigh, self-pity my bad luck, endure the churning stomach, seriously meditate, and simply endure….
Hope you’ll get out of your doldrums soon, the same to me… 🤲
Thanks for your message Snow. Yes, both of us have SOs.
I do realise that if LO and I were more into the LE, or knew each other better, and we did something stupid, the consequences would be devastating.
There are many parallels in our LEs. Like you, the warm interactions do not feel as warm, but the cold ones are really amplified in the hurt that they cause.
TBH, I am very surprised at how hard I took the last one.
Right now, I am hoping and praying for time to do its thing, and make me feel better. Till then, like you, I will have to endure my state of mind. Hope we get out of this soon!
Just wondering, are you in touch with your LO?
No.
ABCD,
Sorry this is hitting you so hard. I do understand why it would.
“Its probably because I found out that LO wanted to get together, but SO shot it down. SO definitely senses the LE.”
Which SO, hers or yours? And how on earth did you find this out?!
Hi LaR. Thanks for your wishes. I am hoping I will feel better soon. I have bounced back from these situations earlier.
“Its probably because I found out that LO wanted to get together, but SO shot it down. SO definitely senses the LE.”
Which SO, hers or yours? And how on earth did you find this out?!
My SO. I found out because she told me.
So SO and LO know each other? Apologies, I may be late to this story if you’ve said that before.
I think I agree with Bewitched below that letting go and just really focusing on SO and other distractions now might be best.
But I get why it will be hard.
Just one more thought in case it helps reassure you that this needn’t be disastrous with SO. It is possible that your SO, if suspecting it, can have the obvious and fair dislike of the situation but also a trust in you and a respect that you have put her first, despite perhaps another woman turning or attempting to turn your head. It doesn’t have to be bad with your SO. Keep reminding yourself that you haven’t done anything wrong and how you have put her first here.
Hi ABCD
„In contrast, when I wish her well (in my mind), I seem to cope better.
To sum up, thinking positively about LO helps more than thinking negatively about her.“
That absolutely makes sense to me, I had this experience often. It depends a bit- sometimes it was better for me to see the bad sides. But overall, I felt best when I could honestly acknowledge that LO (whichever) was a nice person, that I wished him well, that we got along well and he was overall a plus in my life. It had a feeling of letting go. Sometimes the bad feelings were reining me to limerence.
But as I said, it depended on which phase I was in.
Sometimes , when one makes up bad sides as you said or exaggerates them, it can worsen limerence when LO shows up in reality and exceeds the made up bad expectations so much. Staying as close a possible to the reality of a person with good and bad sides is best.
I‘m a bit stuck in a phase where I cannot let go of hard feelings and feel that this is holding me back from final closure.
My LO will work with me next week, and while I was very neutral about that until now, I’m suddenly scared that his absolutely brilliant way of working will pull me back. Cannot elaborate but that’s one of his very attractive sides, he’s so good at work. Would be one of the cases I described- I’m all „he‘s not a good friend to me, his looks are average, he’s a bit selfish and insensitive and not that great“and then he comes and will be better than that and shine at work, and there you have the surprise that he‘s not as bad as I pictured him, and wham!
At least I know this scenario could happen and can prepare, old hand at limerence that I am🙄
So we are a bit in the same boat- not quite being sure which view of LO we should uphold? I think you shouldn’t try to un-like her if it doesn’t go you good at the moment. Maybe just go from moment to moment?
Hi Mila.
All the best for your future work project with your LO. I hope it goes really well, and you get only positive feelings from it.
Right now, I am too spooked to think how I will handle the next interaction, assuming its a cold one. Maybe I will revisit the thought once I regain my composure.
Thanks ABCD,
while I get more contact from my LO than you, I don’t know if that’s better. Texting has become weird, there’s silence for a week or so and then he writes something in the effort to get the old validation from me (or that’s my negative interpretation), I cannot get myself to give it to him and reply in a way I don’t like myself, on which he doesn’t reply, silence for a week etc.
My hope is that it gets more natural once we meet in real life again.
Maybe it’s a good thing in the end that you can have NC for stretches of time, that your LO isn’t entangled in your life, even that your SO sets boundaries?
I agree with Bewitched that maybe your LO behaved that way because your SO was rejecting her meeting you. But wouldn’t dwell on that too much, no one can know for sure and it’s futile.
I‘m puzzled, what did your SO say why she doesn’t want to meet her?
Mila, This caught my eye and I have to say: “texting has become weird” (and all you describe about it) sounds great! That giving him validation seems to be at odds with who you are (now) also sounds good. While limerent, one (at least I) could not handle a week’s silence without going crazy (and reaching out to LO)! So you must be in a good way.
Trifles,
Yes, if it would be a „normal“ LE I’d congratulate myself, but my goal was to keep LO as the good friend he was before. It‘s so to say a „luxury“ problem.
I feel I‘m not being fair to him. But I agree that it’s a good thing I can go without texts from him now for a long time. Of course I know that I’ll see him soon in person, and know already at which occasions I’ll see him next year, in the first half at least three times.
It would be much easier to shun him completely, maybe. It’s very hard for me to see if I’m right in judging him and his behavior as I do or if I‘m being unfair and destroy the chance for future friendship.
I suppose as you lose the last bits of the rose-tinted glasses, you will see whether he is worth keeping as a close(ish) friend or if the distance will move the friendship to a more superficial level.
I’m starting to look at my latest LO/LE and say to myself “what was I thinking??”, slightly embarrassed – but only slightly, it’s not a crime to like someone. My LE was of course different to yours, because you did see him as a worthy friend for years before your LE. But people change… And LEs can change people, so perhaps you will find out whether he was one of those “for a season” types. (“People come into your life for a reason, for a season or for a lifetime”)
A week NC (even texts) tends to be my breaking point too. Mila, you ARE doing well if that isn’t bothering you or triggering you to reach out. Remember I asked you a while back how you’d be if he tooks all the frequent texts away? You said you weren’t sure at the time. Now, you’re surer in a positive direction?
I also like how you can now describe the keeping the friendship side as a ‘luxury problem’.
LaR,
„ Remember I asked you a while back how you’d be if he tooks all the frequent texts away? You said you weren’t sure at the time. Now, you’re surer in a positive direction?“
I‘m sure that it’s better to have less contact, simply because it’s such superficial contact, I get less angry at him (since that is my ongoing problem in this tail-end of limerence). When he writes again after a week I’m actually glad , but when I read it it’s mostly so predictable, and the last times it was a bit fishing for a validating reply, and I get mutinous then and answer without validation. On which he doesn’t reply and also not if I continue to write something on another topic.
I feel I gave him so much validation in the last year, I simply feel I don’t have anything to give him in that compartment any more. It’s most probably puzzling for him, but I can‘t help myself.
So, I’m quite sure I can do without this kind of texting for quite a while, surely weeks.
Don‘t know how it would be if I knew I wouldn’t meet him ever again or in two years, but I at the moment I can be sure that in one or two months we‘ll meet anyway, so that might help in not contacting him.
Hi Trifles,
„ My LE was of course different to yours, because you did see him as a worthy friend for years before your LE. But people change… And LEs can change people, so perhaps you will find out whether he was one of those “for a season” types. “
A lot of our former friendship was actually based on working together and clicking there very well. Now that he left the workplace, that base is gone, and now I‘m not sure. I think that we‘ll always stay friends of some sort, we have lived quite a portion of our lives and good times together, and we do get along well. Of course people change, but I think we were for a while quite important to each other and are both the type to appreciate that even when time passes.
It’s just the question, how close, and how do we get over this awkward phase at the moment, where contact is reducing but we are still not used to it, mutual resentment here and there, and me being wary of getting limerent again.
And maybe I’m wrong in saying we’ll always be friends, and soon he will be fed up by me not validating him and not texting, and that will be it, who knows.
Mila,
“I feel I gave him so much validation in the last year, I simply feel I don’t have anything to give him in that compartment any more. It’s most probably puzzling for him, but I can‘t help myself.”
I have a feeling that whether or not he can puzzle it out and respond appropriately, holds the key as to whether or not the friendship has true worth to you, and therefore whether it will be authentic going forward. It may take time to know. Be patient and open to a range of possible outcomes.
Lim-a-Rant,
the thing is that he‘s very predictable. He won’t puzzle it out. He knows I gave him a lot of validation and he just wants that back. He knows that he has to give something too, and he thinks that’s what he‘s doing, and therefore doesn’t understand why I am this way now.
It was always me giving praise and warmth and him being thankful for it and giving a little bit back which he deemed a lot, but was actually really not much for everyone else.
One little example: he texts me that he‘s really looking forward to next week (when he‘s going to work here). Or that he misses () (fill in name of my town).
For him, that’s enough. When asked why he never can say that he misses me or is looking forward to see me, he‘d say „but I did, I said I missed ()“. (That actually happened in another context, but quite the same).
He weighs his own words in gold and takes my open compliments or whatever as granted, or that’s how it feels for me.
So now, I just don’t feel like giving that anymore. Now texted back that I am also looking forward to next week‘s project because the last two weeks were a bit lame. Silence, because he expected more without having given something…
Sorry for elaborating.
I think he‘s not going to change, I think it’s more a question of if I can accept that he simply is wired this way, cannot give more amd is already giving all he he can, or if I say that’s not enough for me.
Mila,
Fair enough, well explained! You understand it well and the answers to your question (about your ability to accept it, or not), will come with time.
LAR,
yeah. There’s also the question if I‘m too hard on him and if I‘m behaving equally confusing or bad and just cannot see it.
But since I seem at a loss to answer this, I‘ll give it over to time, as you all say.
My plan (how‘s your plan getting together, Imho?) for next week is being nice and open and warm, enjoy the time but won’t do/say anything“special“ for him. I‘ll try and get into the mindset that there’s an old friend and colleague coming to work with me, nothing more, and act accordingly.
Thanks for listening to my soliloquy, all.
Mila/ABCD – i have the same issue with positive vs. Negative thoughts, i feel better if i think positively. My worry is the positive/warm thoughts are easier because (a) you are not fighting the addicton (b) it is not easy to be mean to someone who has on the whole behaved in a decent manner.
Recently i have tried really hard to be just neutral. Either ensuring every interaction i judge as i would a ‘normal’ old friend, or when i have intrusive thoughts ensuring i think clearly and dispassionately about whether i want to have that sensation, divorced of thoughts about the actual person. It seems to help.
If we can get to neutral, we cracked it ! I’m impressed you seem to be getting there HeeJeebies.
it seems for some that maybe there is a need to swing to the low (negative) to counteract the high (overly positive) in order to achieve the neutral longer term, with lots of oscillations and wild curveballs in-between. I think this gang on lwl had some chat on this on a previous blog.
@HJ
“it is not easy to be mean to someone who has on the whole behaved in a decent manner.”
I’d go further. I find it both impossible and counterproductive. I have to try and think more neutrally/negatively about the (real or imagined) relationship, not about the person. As in: “there is nothing here beyond nice friendly behaviour, my head made the rest up”.
Trying to convince ourselves that a good person is a bad person is gaslighting of the self, and what’s the point?
Hi HJ,
„ ensuring every interaction i judge as i would a ‘normal’ old friend, “
that’s what I’m trying, but somehow it‘s hard for me. I get hung up on details, little things that I interpret as him not being a good friend , and feel that I‘m too negative to be neutral, that it might still be disappointed expectations.
„ or when i have intrusive thoughts ensuring i think clearly and dispassionately about whether i want to have that sensation, divorced of thoughts about the actual person.“
That’s interesting, maybe I should try that.
Holding neutral memory, with a warmth of amber, towards one’s LE is an ultimate recovering goal of LE.
It is impossible for me now, which indicates that my LE is not internally over (some had it on a back, slower burner for decades). I wanted to stay in a positive mindset but then realized that I was in a babble head of LE memory, ignoring its negative reality.
Slipping to the negative sides of memories could help end LE, but hurts one’s ego with regrets about those uncontrollable, confusing behaviors, and sheer judgmental mistakes during the LE. It’s not about forgiving other side, but regretting one’s own LE behaviors.
On the other hand, staying or “indulging” on the positive sides of memories consoles limerent’s own pains, which could make LE memories lingering longer and prevent one from moving forward emotionally/spiritually.
So now, I have to sit with the pain of dark memories until they become less darker and eventually neutral.
Hi Snow,
don’t beat yourself up about your own behavior. You did what was possible for you back then, there must have been a reason inside you why you did what you did, and that’s it.
You could think that you see now that next time in the same situation you would behave differently, but you can see that only because you learned something, and to learn it everything had to be exactly how it happened.
Hi HJ.
Yes, you are right. Positive thoughts are really easier to have than negative ones.
Being neutral is the way to go. I am hoping I can get there.
“Either ensuring every interaction i judge as i would a ‘normal’ old friend”,
This one is hard for me to do now, maybe with the passage of time, lets see.
“or when i have intrusive thoughts ensuring i think clearly and dispassionately about whether i want to have that sensation, divorced of thoughts about the actual person. It seems to help”.
I have tried this with some degree of success. Will continue to use this.
Thanks.
lmho – trying, not always achieving…. It’s more like a reaction im trying to train myself into, but itsn’t the instinctive reaction yet. The trend is in the right direction.
Mila- I had the advantage of reaching out to several old friends at the same time as it is all sort of tied together in a bit of a midlife crisis, so I have a lot of comparator points. It is quite a weird experiment. So 3 of 5 friends have exceeded my expectation, one was disinterested. The (ex?)LO has been very friendly in tone but with extended periods of weird silence. I am working on simply not over-interpreting it, not expecting more than what I would expect of other friends, not checking for replies etc. which is realyl helping The challenge is that we have an emotional history which was occasionally awkward or sad, so i could interpret a lot into it if I wanted to, it will never be a ‘clean’ comparison, but I am hoping if i behave like it is. You have very intese contact, and you can obviously only work off your old baseline. IMO even weekly contact is quite high for someone who lives in a different city and a man, but I guess work complicates determining what a new normal baseline might look like.
Snow – I think the one thing I have been working really hard on letting go of and that none of us should ever hold on to is shame for our behaviours during LEs (those dark memories of poor judgement, irrational behaviour etc.). Rationally, I see what was to be ashamed of, but that is simply who I was back then and I did the best I could. I don’t judge ‘myself’ if that makes sense, I’m not that person anymore, and I have since done my best to learn my lessons, and subsequently forgive that version of me for the mistakes he made. That said, I have always been quite extreme in my disregard for people’s opinion of me, which makes it easy, but also leads t other flaws….
HJ,
Thank you for such an insight about a shared common feature in “post” LIMERENCE.
For me with cptsd, the habitual (self) shaming was a daily meal while growing up, while Narc Mom (along with COO) cooked it daily for/to me. During LE, ET helped me battle and heal a lot of cptsd impact in most other aspects of life. However, the interaction with him created a new LE “shame” — worrying about his opinions of my vulnerabilities, and of my irrational, uncontrollable LE behaviors… as if he were the only rightful judge.
After understanding LE through LwL, I felt a lot less shameful; but I still worried that ET would laugh at me even just in his head, regardless his own Sensor and other deceitful behaviors…. So the part of my disclosure was also an attempt to “educate” him (he claimed he didn’t know the concept of LE) on LE.
I know I’m much maturer than 7ears, 2 years, and even five months ago…. But the old habitual cptsd mindset on my LE still often drags my moods down or into depression when those LE dark memories surfaced. Then the sense of self-shaming spreads into other areas of my reality, as if I can never think/feel/do things “right”, beneficial to myself and others….
Being ignorantly eccentric seemed to be a birthmark on my forehead since little and the price to pay has been loneliness or aloneness the most of time. Still, the internal struggle to get rid of the sense of shame and inadequacy has never ceased.
Only when I dived in creative writing, all negativity of the world seems nonexistent… everything appeared shinny for a while… then my T brain told me, “you’re in your babble head again…. Get real!” Imagination for me has always been a remedy since very young, but over taking it could also be “dangerous”.
Hi HJ,
„ IMO even weekly contact is quite high for someone who lives in a different city and a man, but I guess work complicates determining what a new normal baseline might look like.“
We had almost daily texting contact for months, even a year or more, so weekly is an improvement, and it hasn’t got much to do with work, actually. Mostly it’s him who breaks Nc after a week, but his new thing is to not reply then on my reply or next text, which I feel is kind of rude, and I guess it’s because he was hoping for another kind of reply, more enthusiastic or validating. Maybe I over-interpret, but maybe not (I know him for ten years), I suspect he‘s doing a get-out-of-limerence-dance of his own.
I aim for less but warm contact, but that seems a distant goal at the moment. Any reduction seems to lower temperature too.
Hi Mila,
Not to highjack ABCDs post, ( Im certainly not the one to offer him any advice on this right now, but taking notes) .
So your LO is back at your workplace for a time ! I would actually ask him to kindly return those going away gifts, as he keeps coming back ! Just joking 😃
I’m sure you will handle it just fine, however, it may be tiring as you may be having to be more mindful and that takes effort and energy. Just let it pass, and then think about the texting strategy which, unless I’m mistaken, these seem more the ‘issue’ than the face to face interactions.
Hi Imho,
I think texting and face to face are both problems now, I just don’t know how to behave, kind of lost the natural approach.
I‘m more in danger to be too cool and even hurtful at the moment, and most probably he hasn’t deserved that. Is he insensitive and not the right person to be my close friend, or not, I cannot decide at the moment.
I think it would be better to let go of resentment and just be nice.
It’s just that he‘s so predictable in his texts and I sense his wish to get back to old warmth, but it feels like a wish to get the old warm validation from me, not something he wants to give to me, if that makes sense. It maybe that’s a too negative view too. At the moment I’m really clueless.
Yes, will ask him to give the darned gift back as it seemed to have impressed him that much that he tried to get even with an expensive gift instead of understanding that that’s not the same as something heartfelt. See, I judge him badly again while I know that that was just his way to try and be warm and give me something.
I seem not to be able to let go of resentment, like a dog who bites a trouser leg and cannot open his jaws again…
And then I know, as I wrote somewhere else, that he will perform brilliantly at work and that might shake me out of my negative mood and I‘ll get sad again that he left etcetc.
At the same time I’m fed up with all that nonsense.
He‘ll just come and leave again like everybody else.
It‘s a see-saw here, not least because I‘m on an emotional see-saw anyway, getting older, having pains here and there, feeling tired etc.
It’s not fair to take it out on him, actually.
So maybe I‘ll just try to be nice, I guess that will make me feel better when he has left again.
Hope you have your plan in place for your event too, Imho, and are not see-sawing wildly like yours truly…
Hi ABCD,
Whatever works for you, works, and that is the important thing – to follow your own path.
For me, I started out thinking positively about LO, but, I was still feeding the limerence at that point. I didn’t really believe it was ‘over’. Once I adopted a recovery mindset, I needed to think less positively about LO, to help me along. That worked and once I felt more recovered, I was able to go back to a much more neutral frame of mind in relation to LO.
Maybe your mind is in turmoil because you found out that LO suggested a meet-up (= ‘High’ feelings). At the same time, when you met LO, she ignored you (=’Low’ feelings). These two things may be related to one another (LO reacted in a cold way due to SO turning down the invite). There is much room here for speculation and I am sure that you are also stressed because SO is wary. Maybe now that SO is more involved in the planning, it is possible to take NC to a whole new level? This has been working for you…?
I really hope you feel better today.
@ABCD
I agree with @Bewitched, and had the same experience…regarding the positive thoughts about LO.
I would say, if you can, try not to judge yourself harshly, and forgive yourself for what is happening. But, if you can, also know that you must try to unentangle yourself. You owe it to yourself to get out of this, if it is torturing you.
Are you able to go no contact? Who cares what she (LO) thinks, whether she thinks it’s nice or not. Your emotional survival is at stake. (Not talking at all about your SO or primary relationship — I’m talking only about you, and your state of mind.)
Can you go NC? I think you should. You should regain some peace of mind. Do it only for yourself, not for anyone else. Can you do that?
I say this as a Limerant of Epic Proportions and (LoEP) and this is the only way I have found to manage it. To get very, very selfish, to practice forgiveness, to take my time away, and to forgive the moments when I think on LO, and yearn for him…but not to give in to them and do anything about it. Just know it will pass, to know it will dissipate completely at some point… and no longer be part of my life. But, I can’t be “nice”. And I can’t worry about what LO thinks. I have to just…dispassionately prune that branch. Not to hurt him, not for revenge or as a strategy to regain him…but to free myself.
Thanks for your advice, CSC.
My first priority right now is to feel better mentally. Recent days have been very painful. On previous occasions, I felt better with time. I am hoping the same thing happens now, especially since contact is limited currently.
NC cannot happen right now, and is beyond my control. However, contact has reduced in recent times.
I am not being hard on myself, as that will just make me feel even worse.
Hello CSC.
Its great to hear that you were able to exercise restraints and resist rumination after meeting your LO. That’s a great achievement.
I have been doing a lot of rumination for some days, but hearing from you now, I am now trying to get back on track. Just cannot let one episode derail all the previous work.
“For me, I started out thinking positively about LO, but, I was still feeding the limerence at that point. I didn’t really believe it was ‘over’. Once I adopted a recovery mindset, I needed to think less positively about LO, to help me along. That worked and once I felt more recovered, I was able to go back to a much more neutral frame of mind in relation to LO”.
Its very interesting you say this, as I was in a neutral frame of mind till before this recent event, which has knocked me over. I am hoping that I can return to a more neutral state soon.
Maybe your mind is in turmoil because you found out that LO suggested a meet-up (= ‘High’ feelings). At the same time, when you met LO, she ignored you (=’Low’ feelings). These two things may be related to one another (LO reacted in a cold way due to SO turning down the invite). There is much room here for speculation and I am sure that you are also stressed because SO is wary. Maybe now that SO is more involved in the planning, it is possible to take NC to a whole new level? This has been working for you…?
Yes, it may have gone like this. Yes, SO is wary. This has primarily led to the reduced contact, and is acting like a barrier that prevents me from doing something I would regret.
“I really hope you feel better today”.
Thanks, I am feeling a little better today.
@ABCD
I’m so sorry you are in pain. I truly do know what that feels like. It’s awful…I definitely understand that. It’s so hard, and I feel like other people who are not limerant don’t really get it…The same way people who don’t have migraines don’t really get it. It’s not just a headache.
Anyway, stay strong, and I would say, from my own experience, have trust that it will pass. It should…but…it’s hard. I’m glad you’re taking an understanding attitude to yourself. You deserve it. You would not be on here if you weren’t trying to work through this in a responsible way…it’s hard, and it feels awful. But, you’re doing the right thing, just by being conscious of how you are feeling, and mindful of how your mind is working. Hang in there.
I ran into my LO today, and it was…ok. But, after all the work I’ve done in the past few weeks, I can feel myself wanting to pick the thought of him up, and roll it around like a pebble between my fingers. I am resisting it, though. Trying to resist it, look at it from outside, and know that the minute I give into fantasizing about it, all the work I’ve done, and all the time I’ve given it, will simply evaporate….
Stay strong, and I say this for both our benefits! 🙂
Snow,
This is a slightly knee-jerk response written in a moment of not having the time, but also not wanting to ignore something you said above. I may be off kilter.
ET’s good lives on, I think, in your Phantom somehow. Not taking over its face/mask, but having an effect in some other way. Make sure your phantom gets oxygen as much as you can (I get life sometimes gets in the way), and I wonder whether you will feel the good side more again. Reflect on what you are doing differently now, to when you felt better and more reconciled, and put back in any good habits from when you did feel better, as much as you can. Refuse unhelpful questions about him from us here, if answering is too triggering. 💪🫂
LaR,
“ET’s good lives on, I think, in your Phantom somehow. Not taking over its face/mask, but having an effect in some other way.”
That’s the issue here, and it’s F & P at work, T helps little except creating detaching pains…
“ Make sure your phantom gets oxygen as much as you can (I get life sometimes gets in the way), and I wonder whether you will feel the good side more again. “
If I feed the Phantom of myself, its ET mask gets fed, too. Then I’d be stuck in the “empty” LE universe — no ET, but the memory of ET/LE. The deprogramming/severing/detoxifying work is really painful, sinking my spirit.
“Reflect on what you are doing differently now, to when you felt better and more reconciled, and put back in any good habits from when you did feel better, as much as you can.”
As I said to HJ, I only felt good and better when creatively writing, which then still feeding the dying LE (recharging me in other areas of my reality), despite the total physical NC.
How couldst thou become new If thou have not first become ashes.—Friedrich Nictenche
I think it’s time to let 🐦🔥 completely burn to ashes now, which is a very scary thing to do…
Snow,
“I think it’s time to let 🐦🔥 completely burn to ashes now, which is a very scary thing to do…”
I can understand why it is scary, and I can’t quite work out what that looks like – like, lose a part of your soul?
The swings both ways between positive and negative seem very common to the various ‘in recovery’ people posting on here at the moment (I know
my view of MFF is very rose-tinted to be representative, so am thinking only of others here). I think you’re right that an amber memory is good to strive for, even if the route to it is unclear.
I also get how you find feeding the phantom inseparable (currently) from feeding ET’s mask on it. You haven’t always put it like that, but it’s your reality for now.
I’m thinking of you as you navigate this difficult bit. Give everything time and patience.
What are your deities telling you? (No need to answer me if self reflection is better)
LaR,
“I can’t quite work out what that looks like – like, lose a part of your soul?“
It will minimally leads to bigger spiritual and physical depression that can even mute Apollo’s lyre; worse, some chronic physical dis-eases… I had been there before and know clearly what it would be like.
“What are your deities telling you? “
Athena & Artemis (harnessing Apollo) and Aphrodite & Hermes (fueling the Phantom) are playing sea-saw daily or hours; Zeus gets dizzy, just attending mandatory
When Giving Is All We Have
Alberto Ríos
1952 –
One river gives
Its journey to the next.
We give because someone gave to us.
We give because nobody gave to us.
We give because giving has changed us.
We give because giving could have changed us.
We have been better for it,
We have been wounded by it—
Giving has many faces: It is loud and quiet,
Big, though small, diamond in wood-nails.
Its story is old, the plot worn and the pages too,
But we read this book, anyway, over and again:
Giving is, first and every time, hand to hand,
Mine to yours, yours to mine.
You gave me blue and I gave you yellow.
Together we are simple green. You gave me
What you did not have, and I gave you
What I had to give—together, we made
Something greater from the difference.
*****
Friendship is built on mutually giving with limitations. Does some LE involve “giving” at all, even just from one side? If yes, would it be crystallized into a tiny amber? 🤔
Hello Snow.
I like your analysis about the pros and cons of positive and negative LO thoughts.
For me, thinking warmly about them is helping soothe the sad feelings.
Lets see if I can be more neutral in the future.
I am just trying to figure this out on a step by step basis.
ABCD,
It’s a lot easier to think warmly/imagine positively about someone whom we don’t know well. However, if knowing their dark, hurtful sides and still able to see only their shinny parts, is one in a sheer denial or a huge fancy babble? — that’s the gigantic dilemma for my big knucklehead! 🫡
Hi IMHO:
“it seems for some that maybe there is a need to swing to the low (negative) to counteract the high (overly positive) in order to achieve the neutral longer term, with lots of oscillations and wild curveballs in-between. I think this gang on lwl had some chat on this on a previous blog”.
This resonates with me a lot. I just oscillated from neutral to negative to positive, in a matter of a few days. The goal would be to reach a more or less steady state. In the early days of LE, it was all positive. This was followed by oscillations between positive and negative. The neutral state was short lived.
Hi Mila.
Thanks ABCD,
“while I get more contact from my LO than you, I don’t know if that’s better. Texting has become weird, there’s silence for a week or so and then he writes something in the effort to get the old validation from me (or that’s my negative interpretation), I cannot get myself to give it to him and reply in a way I don’t like myself, on which he doesn’t reply, silence for a week etc.
My hope is that it gets more natural once we meet in real life again”.
I think if I had more regular contact, I may feel worse, as I would be more addicted to LO, and expecting more and more validation, which of course, I may or may not get. In this regard, LC is more stabilising, I feel.
I had a lot of texting anxiety earlier, but no texting going on between us now.
“Maybe it’s a good thing in the end that you can have NC for stretches of time, that your LO isn’t entangled in your life, even that your SO sets boundaries?
I agree with Bewitched that maybe your LO behaved that way because your SO was rejecting her meeting you. But wouldn’t dwell on that too much, no one can know for sure and it’s futile”.
Yes, the NC period helps, as does SO boundaries. I thought about the LO SO thing for a while, but trying not too, as you said, who knows for sure.
I‘m puzzled, what did your SO say why she doesn’t want to meet her?
That we are busy, and some other time.
ABCD,
Thanks for clarifying, and glad to hear you are better!
What I meant was, how did your SO explain to you that she didn’t want to meet, if she hinted at not really wanting to or if you two were actually really busy.
But never mind, it’s not important.
Hi Mila. No, we were not actually busy. SO did hint at not wanting to meet together, she does meet LO without me.
Hi LaR.
“So SO and LO know each other? Apologies, I may be late to this story if you’ve said that before”.
Yep.
“I think I agree with Bewitched below that letting go and just really focusing on SO and other distractions now might be best.
But I get why it will be hard”.
Thanks, am trying to do this.
“Just one more thought in case it helps reassure you that this needn’t be disastrous with SO. It is possible that your SO, if suspecting it, can have the obvious and fair dislike of the situation but also a trust in you and a respect that you have put her first, despite perhaps another woman turning or attempting to turn your head. It doesn’t have to be bad with your SO. Keep reminding yourself that you haven’t done anything wrong and how you have put her first here”.
Yes, this is a great point. Thank you for making it.
@Mila.
“these are interesting details. I‘m kind of intrigued by your SO- while I understand now that she‘s wary (as you said, your LO was quite openly validating you in front of her), I wonder at her meeting LO without you but openly refusing to meet together. Wouldn’t that spawn a talk with you about the Why?
But don’t go there , please, if it starts ruminating. It’s not that important since you already know she‘s wary”.
—
I can sense some uneasiness between SO and LO. In the early days of LE, when I was not as much into LO, I told SO about the LO validation.
My guess is that they were closer earlier than they are now, due to your truly.
I am not sure about all this, just writing what I feel.
I did not really prod why SO declined, thought its best to leave it at that.
„I did not really prod why SO declined, thought its best to leave it at that.“
Absolutely the best you could do!
Hello again, everyone.
How I felt in the recent past has made me realise that I really do not need this, that I do not deserve to feel this crappy.
From now on, I am going to go ahead and detach myself from LE and LO. This means going NC, as much as is possible. I can make up stuff and not attend events where she is there, unless it is work related, and I am required to be there.
I am also going to try and not seek LO, nor validate her. The thoughts can and will come into my mind, due to its LE training, but I am not going to act on them. No more fuzzy signals.
This would hurt at first, but is the only way that I can break away from this LE quagmire.
Would appreciate any other tips that can help me climb out of this rabbit hole.
Its funny, I feel lighter even as I am typing this.
I will update on the progress soon.
Thanks for listening, and wish me luck! Have a great weekend!
ABCD,
Great resolve! You have arrived at the fed-up point, and that’s the turning point. Highlight this feeling lighter even when you think of your resolve! These were the moments of truth for me too: realizing that the prospect of being rid of the whole mess, of hankering after signals etc, made me feel weirdly relieved, even when in the thick of limerence.
No, you don’t need these futile depressive feelings any more.
In your case, a clean cut sounds feasible and healthy , not the murky friendship-stuff I’m dealing with.
My tip is, hold the memory how you felt lighter when typing this. It shows that it’s worth persisting.
Thanks, Mila. Yeah, who needs all this drama – right?
We may still meet from time to time, but I would try and approach those interactions with a cool head. In the past, I have exhibited the “deer caught in headlights” syndrome when in proximity to LO. I have consciously tried to act more confident, and having done it on a few occasions, it has helped a lot in some LO interactions.
Dear ABCD,
Good for you!!
“Its funny, I feel lighter even as I am typing this. ”
I hope this does not sound trite, but you really need to want to recover in order to be able to recover, or at least, that is what I found. There is no point lying to yourself and still harbouring wishes and desires for LO in the back of your mind because those secret thoughts hold you back (I think it is a kind of cognitive dissonance) and despite NC you don’t get very far especially when NC is broken.
Only when I really wanted to be better, could my mind slowly let go. I basically refused to give him any time and, although there were slip-ups, they slowly got less frequent. Hope for a future fantasy relationship with LO just needs to die and be buried / burned / liquidised. If you can also extend NC by offering excuses, you will be onto a winner. It will reassure any suspicions that SO has and it will keep you feeling mentally strong. Taking control is fantastic and very confidence building!
Hello oh wise one,
“There is no point lying to yourself and still harbouring wishes and desires for LO in the back of your mind because those secret thoughts hold you back (I think it is a kind of cognitive dissonance)”
Yeah, it’s a massive cognitive dissonance, isn’t it? Because I am not sure there are really many tricks to moving this stuff along from the back of the mind. And while it remains, it holds back recovery. It’s like we can’t exercise conscious control over that, and just have to wait for the back-of-mind stuff to move on when it’s good and ready? Would love to know how to speed it up (besides distracting the front of the mind, which I think is big).
Hey LaR,
“Hello oh wise one”, thanks LaR, it took 6 years to get wise so, them results are not too impressive🤣 .
About speeding up the process of getting better, you are spot-on with this
“…just have to wait for the back-of-mind stuff to move on when it’s good and ready? Would love to know how to speed it up (besides distracting the front of the mind, which I think is big).”
I think that the recovery mindset is a little chicken and egg. Did it arise due to a strengthening of executive control, or, was it the other way around? I mean all along I thought maybe it was the former, that acknowledging the futility, exerting conscious self distraction and logic – ‘I dont even want him, really, what am I even playing at?’, helped to make him disappear bit by bit slowly from the back of my mind, where he had been lodged for years. For about two years he was at the back *and* the front of my mind. Then it became more a situation where he was at the back only, but he was firmly lodged there and I was prone to relapse and wondered if he would ever leave. A turning point was deviding I didnt want him there anymore. Any strategies which get us limerents to that point, are useful, I think
I am not sure of I have overstated the executive control and application of logic eventually (with NC/LC) wins the day. Maybe so?
All I know is that he got in touch again recently and I felt able to interact with him as a MFF…..
Bewitched,
That’s very encouraging that you felt like that. Did he also seem calm and less frenetic in the interaction?
Yeah I think there is a big difference between telling yourself a story of ‘I don’t want LO living in my head’ and *really* meaning it. You can tell yourself the first one but the second is pure brain biology. I haven’t figured out how to jump from the first to the second. Perhaps near-daily interactions don’t help. She is also steadfastly refusing to do anything remotely negative at the moment to help me along with it!
In the autumn I was saying I thought I’d had 3 or 4 months solid progress. I still do, but reflecting back on it, only on certain aspects. I got more at home with the not disclosing and with the ‘futility’ side – as in, I reconciled with ‘this will never go anywhere romantically’. I also calmed my over analysis of every interaction, text etc both in negative and positive directions. And the MFF side has felt calmer, more predictable and less anxiety-producing since, and has stayed that way – I have better trust in it. But what I haven’t solved is her being stuck in my mind nearly all the time, and craving the next dopamine hit. It is not even really like I have uncertainty or intermittent reward schedules fuelling this now, as unlike earlier on in the LE, all is pretty consistent.
I think I’d tentatively say they’re the first signs of progress but I can’t see the full extent of it yet – like buds on a tree that haven’t properly fruited yet (Trifles – see how I managed to avoid direct reference to agriculture this time?).
Did you ever do conscious deprogramming work or did he ‘deprogramme himself’ in effect, in the end?
LaR, “It is not even really like I have uncertainty or intermittent reward schedules fuelling this now, as unlike earlier on in the LE, all is pretty consistent.”
That’s a couple of the defining characteristics/causes of limerence gone then! I started wondering if we have another example of that kind of limerence on LwL… Maybe one whose LE seemed to turn into an EA(!) but they also had plenty of hot/cold cycles. Even Mila who’s had a stable friendship has had the intermittent rewards. Of course I have a stable relationship with TO, but I’m not classifying it as an LE.
Does the absence of hot/cold cycles make the limerence fade on its own over time..? I suppose we’ll see.
Although speculating further… those hot/cold cycles are often blown up in our heads. To non-limerents they would just be warm/neutral cycles (i.e. being normally friendly vs forgot s/he (the limerent) existed). So I suppose this is also expectations management, which you have succeeded in. I.e. you don’t expect her to be “hot” toward you, but rather generally friendly, so your emotions don’t fluctuate based on that.
“…like buds on a tree that haven’t properly fruited yet (Trifles – see how I managed to avoid direct reference to agriculture this time?).”
To-may-to, to-mah-to… See, even that is an agriculture reference!
Trifles,
And did you notice that even your ‘stable’ relationship there is an agricultural reference? 🐎🚪
(Wonders how many more he can sneak into this message).
I don’t know many LwL folks who openly admit an EA, so I think I can identify your reference point. If so, the big difference from mine is that they had full transparency with mutual disclosure. Mine is all acres worth of leaky eye contact and unsaids etc. I’ll debate with you another time (if you want) ‘when does something become an EA?’ and ‘is this one or not? why?’.
“Although speculating further… those hot/cold cycles are often blown up in our heads.”
Yes, this was me. I think what you said applies – what I’ve experienced is neutral and warmer. Never a cold front, but my brain used to read it like that, and also amplify ‘warmer’ into ‘boiling’. I think this is typical of limerence but can be corrected with time and attention. I don’t think there is much material change at all in LO’s ways towards me in the past year, just a dialling down of my brain’s overreactions.
It is like we’ve worked out the parameters of what it can be that works for both of us, without going outside fences. So there is less need to stress about that side. Paraphrasing what ABCD said in one of his posts today, I no longer lurch from ‘she loves me’ to ‘she hates me’ in the space of one interaction or text (I exaggerate to make a point but you’ll get gist). In these parts, my T has beaten my F – which it needed to.
“Does the absence of hot/cold cycles make the limerence fade on its own over time..?”
That would be my hope. If it looks like a friendship, and quacks (?clucks🐔) like a friendship, then that’s what it is, right? And my limerence should fade…
… And yet, and yet … if I am honest (and what is the point in not being, here), I am just still so damned attracted to her. F is smashing T on this part. It is just that I have learned to box the attraction side off as a mental dimension, and manage to conduct the real relationship (friendship) in an authentic way. It is like the two exist on parallel planes but it doesn’t make the attraction disappear!
I saw an argument made on an old LwL post, that the strong sexual attraction phase for a man tends to last 1-2 years, with the evolutionary reason being that this would at least keep him around long enough to care for his newborn baby in its first year. It’s a bit crass but there may be some truth in it?
If that point is correct, I should be squarely in the right zone now for the attraction to LO to start to reduce.
Thank you for listening to my ramblings. Sending a hot chocolate your way 🫕
I wrestle with the question of whether mine is an EA but the answer is ‘only in my head’. If LO was asked whether she was in an EA with me she would not think so, but may well get defensive – or worse, even the accusation of it from another person could scare her off. There have been odd innocent assumptions by others we met that we’re a couple, and when those come out we have laughed them off easily enough. One or two people who should know better have tried to (cattle) prod me about it. I ended up telling her as the same people could try the tactic with her.
Trifles, crikey, editing fail on my part! 🤦♂️I meant to delete the bit under the hot chocolate, as I decided I wasn’t quite ready to start talking about ‘is it an EA?’ without that seeming like oversharing.
Ah well, it’s out there now (in half formulated, not edited prose). No harm done!
LaR, I counted five more or less agriculture-related references, if you count my stable. Did I get them?? What do I win?
Yep, when you leave the hot/cold cycle out the attraction, maybe even obsession, still remains. But I was wondering if the absence of hot/cold eventually starts to make it less obsessive, and more like a “normal” attraction? Those are part of life.
I’ve come across the 2-year sexual attraction theory as well and believe in it. The passion usually fizzles out by then, but if the couple have managed to procreate by then, they move in to the nest building phase and might not even notice/worry about it. In any case they’re “trapped” (in a nice way…)! And I think the average length of LEs has been estimated at 18 months (coincidentally the length of my first LE).
No worries about the last paragraph. I also thought about discussing the parameters for EAs but didn’t go there this time.
I think it’s quite normal to wonder if one is in an EA. (I know I’ve thought about it) Again, I think that is the limerent’s own hopefulness – an EA would mean there’s two parties in this! Reciprocation!
You’re right, that poster had disclosure on both sides, and I think that’s the prerequisite for an EA. Of course there’s different levels of disclosure, from my “hit him over the head with it” joke-y flirting, which still has plausible deniability, to more heart-felt confessions.
Out of interest, how did your LO react when you told her about the prodders?
You also think I’m somewhere where I would need a hot chocolate..? 😱 (*Looks around suspiciously)
Hello ABCD,
I’ll second to what Bewitched wrote. You will have to want this in order to make it happen. Focus your thoughts on things you enjoy that will distract you. Try to remember the reasons that attracted you to SO and work on that.
Everything probably easier said than done, I know. However the LE madness begins with and can end with you.
Hi MJ. Thanks for your message.
Yes, I agree that these things are logical in theory, but challenging in implementation. Challenging, but not impossible, that is what I am telling myself.
Thanks Bewitched.
I agree with you totally. Unless you really want to recover, you won’t recover, and get swayed.
I guess my situation is that if I bump into LO (this happens), and ideally, whenever we meet, I would like to have regular and proper conversations with her (like I do with other folks), without limerence getting in the way.
I am behind in the process as compared to you, but I hope to make good progress, taking small steps to gain control. Thanks!
Trifles – “But I was wondering if the absence of hot/cold eventually starts to make it less obsessive, and more like a “normal” attraction? Those are part of life.”
Will be interesting to see what happens and whether it works that way. I’m hopeful. Maybe it will just get boring one of these days! I am smack bang around that 18 month mark now, so let’s see.
“that poster had disclosure on both sides, and I think that’s the prerequisite for an EA. Of course there’s different levels of disclosure, from my “hit him over the head with it” joke-y flirting, which still has plausible deniability, to more heart-felt confessions.”
Yeah I don’t know how much ‘leakage through amazing eye contact’ counts 😎 There’s quite a bit of jokey flirting in my LE too, both ways round. It is totally LO’s natural style when she’s comfortable with someone, and she draws it out of me in return, so I don’t assume it means anything. There have also been heart-felt confessions but only about the friendship level.
On pre-requisites for an EA, people will vary but I think what you choose to discuss or not with the LO is a factor. I could see at one point that I was on a slippery slope about discussing my relationship with SO (this was near beginning of LE). I resolved to stop doing it (not fair on either of them, and was leading me into EA territory), and I don’t remember a conversation like that happening in the last year at all. I still mention SO to her in a more everyday way, but don’t go into deeper stuff any longer. And she doesn’t really ask.
To ask the direct question – as I have found you can cope with those – how close do you think that TO is to being in an EA with you? (Then again – it isn’t an EA if they are officially estranged).
“Out of interest, how did your LO react when you told her about the prodders?”
So there have been prodders who don’t know us well (loose acquantainces made mutually through social connections) who just innocently assumed it. In those cases she acted like she found it quite funny, joked with me, and didn’t take any evident offence.
Then there has been the odd thing implied by people who know me/her better – not that we are in EA, but more like that we send out couple vibes. It reflects worse on me than on her, if we do that. With one of them, I was able to use plausible deniability / “we don’t need to be having this conversation” to send them on their way. Another suggested it more directly, which worried me more and I did tell LO. Her main reaction was annoyance at the person for meddling where it wasn’t wanted (as was mine) and also assuring me that we would not let such meddling come between us. I told the person firmly to leave it and not to go and say the same thing to LO. I have no idea if she has ever had anyone say this sort of thing to her – not that she’s reported. No idea how to read those different responses at different times, but it hasn’t ever caused me too much discomfort.
I provided hot chocolate earlier on the off chance, as I couldn’t encourage alcohol at that time of day. Maybe you don’t have us much need for a hot drink at the moment as I do, though – it’s been a weekend for that here. There might have been as many as seven agricultural references in that message, including your ‘stable’ – but some were tenuous. For five, I would definitely swap the ‘Cuba Libre’ out for a ‘Dark and Stormy’ if you’d like it?
LaR, thanks for the response related to the prodding. I can’t offer any insight on that, there’s nothing peculiar in those reactions.
Jokey flirting is probably a really annoying one because when I do it with some it means nothing (except a certain level of comfort/affection) and with some it means “take me already!”
I think L.E. once mentioned an article about the signs of an emotional affair. I found one which lists 9. TO fills six of these, i.e. frequent contact, frequent sharing, constant thoughts (showcased by frequency of texting), feeling understood, inappropriate sharing, secrecy. (For interest, the rest are: unfair comparisons, spending more time together, having less time for your partner – kind of redundant those last two.) There’s a lot more to those in the article of course and I think it’s hard to say just based on a list. The article even points out that some of those can also be signs of close friendship. And I think the ones that TO is missing are some of the most crucial ones. I do think an EA requires mutual disclosure because otherwise it would just be in one person’s head.
For example, even if discussing your SO means sliding into EA territory for you, the other person could just see it as confiding among friends.
As for the ‘A’ in EA, TO’s SO has given him permission to do what he wants. He just “chooses not to”.
Also, for some people it’s only an affair if it’s physical. Most of these people are men – look it up: women would be more upset about a partner’s EA, men by a PA. I’m pretty sure TO is among those, he doesn’t worry about it or probably even think about it. I could ask him (if he’s in an EA) if you want. I thought about asking but didn’t want to worry him. 🙈 Although from where I’m standing I don’t see a reason for him to be worried (based on SO’s permission above) but he might like to think of himself in a certain way.
And darn, 5 out of 7 in the agriculture vocabulary exam doesn’t sound that good. But you gave me a new drink to try so I’m happy! Let’s see if the bartenders here know it… It’s definitely been hot chocolate / dark & stormy weather here!
Trifles, realised I have been unfair – there were these 6 – ‘stable’, ‘acres’, ‘fences’, ‘clucks’, ‘ramblings’ (tenuous) and ‘cattle’. So it was 83%! I meant to write that when I hit the 18 month zone I was surely ‘ripe’ for improvement, but must have only said that in my head. I also thought of writing “F has ploughed T into the dirt” but actually started to make myself cringe then, let alone you. Er … anyway … another round?
“I can’t offer any insight on that, there’s nothing peculiar in those reactions”
That’s what I thought too, could have been a lot worse, ‘nothing to see here’ really.
“I could ask him (if he’s in an EA) if you want. I thought about asking but didn’t want to worry him.”
I’d say don’t ask him, as there is no point rocking that boat unless you really want to. It’s just a label anyway. I imagine your NT curiosity will really want to know what he’d say now, though … keep me posted if you do ask him, but I don’t want to encourage it if mentioning it might mess anything about for the two of you.
“For example, even if discussing your SO means sliding into EA territory for you, the other person could just see it as confiding among friends”
Yes … but I guess it depends on if they are reciprocating – even if they can’t talk about an SO, are they giving up a lot of their own emotional trust to the limerent – making them ‘their person’? I have read that a sign of an EA for an attached limerent is having the emotional discussions (about anything) with the LO that they should be having with the SO. But I think I see your point too – for it to be an ‘affair’ of any kind, by nature both parties need to see it that way … which is often not the case in limerence. I’m happier without the label on it – give me an “MFF” anyday!
“Jokey flirting is probably a really annoying one because when I do it with some it means nothing (except a certain level of comfort/affection) and with some it means “take me already!” ”
Right, help a guy out here who has been keen to learn from you ever since I came here! I get that this is ‘a thing’. But do these two scenarios you describe look/feel any different (they must, somehow?), and how would we know? 😂😂😂 I know this might make me sound very naive, but I think basically every man struggles with the difference! I am just prepared to admit I do, indeed to admit that speculating on it knocked me all over the park earlier in this LE (don’t worry, I am past this now). Then again if I was available I’d probably try to resolve it by ramping up a bit on what I gave back, to test the waters – I would soon get a ‘back off’ signal if it was the first type, or a ‘come forth’ signal if the second type.
Random question, have you or female friends ever been the kinds to have or want a gay male best friend? I read and hear that a lot of women can only really get the comfort of a ‘truly’ platonic male friend if that man isn’t interested in women. I sometimes wonder if LO feels safe with me in a similar way that some women do with a gay man. That could explain it all without there being a shred of romantic interest from her.
Ah, limerence, eh??!!
Trifles, LaR,
Sorry to cut into your cozy weekend chat, with my usual nagging points.
Trifles: if you want to find out a true nature/definition of your relations with your TO, try to stop texting for two complete weeks or perhaps 10 days, and check your feelings and reactions and stay with them. I fairly believe that you’ll get your answer.
LaR,
You’ve already “disclosed” your feelings for MFF to her by telling her others’ prodding; people don’t get a vibe of a couple for no reasons. The point here is that we do not know whether others have prodded your MFF. But I suspect, that she’s silently reciprocating your feelings by feeling comfortable with it (easier to do that you, without SO on her side)
For some women, the last thing they want is to be suspected to have “EA/PA” with a man they don’t want to be viewed in that light, friend or not. Gosh, my colleagues had intensely watched, like hawks, when I carried out chitchats with ET in the lounge, making me so uncomfortable because I knew they were searching for EA/PA evidences in my eyes, which did not always listen to my brain!
I did not know/understand what EA was before coming to LwL (Only PA means an affair in my upbringing and in the interactions with ET); now based on those loose concepts, I think I did get indirect/subtle EA from ET but not knowing/understanding it and consequently resisted PA opportunities/subtle offers, thus TOWGA…. But my cptsd made/view it as TOIGAF… too complicated to explain here…
Mutual EAs do not need to be fully disclosed verbally, if one or two sides have SO. There were many side clues… 🕵️♂️
You two have a relaxed Sunday evening, put some amorous hats on the corns I’m sending you —
The Yellow Corn
Charles G. Eastman
Come, boys, sing!—
Sing of the yellow corn,
Sing, boys, sing,
Sing of the yellow corn!
He springeth up from the fallow soil,
With the blade so green and tall,
And he payeth well the reaper’s toil,
When the husks in the autumn fall.
The pointed leaves,
And the golden ear,
The rustling sheaves,
In the ripened year—
Sing, boys, sing!
Sing of the yellow corn,
Sing, boys, sing,
Sing of the yellow corn.
He drinks the rain in the summer long,
And he loves the streams that run,
And he sends the stalk so stout and strong,
To bask in the summer sun.
The pointed leaves,
And the golden ear,
The rustling sheaves,
In the ripened year—
Sing, boys, sing!
Sing of the yellow corn,
Sing, boys, sing,
Sing of the yellow corn.
He loves the dews of the starry night,
And the breathing wind that plays
With his tassels green, when the mellow light
Of the moon on the meadow stays.
The pointed leaves,
And the golden ear,
The rustling sheaves,
In the ripened year—
Sing, boys, sing!
Sing of the yellow corn,
Sing, boys, sing,
Sing of the yellow corn.
A glorious thing is the yellow corn,
With the blade so green and tall,
A blessed thing is the yellow corn,
When the husks in the autumn fall.
Then, sing, boys, sing!
Sing of the yellow corn,
Sing, boys, sing,
Sing of the yellow corn!
The pointed leaves,
And the golden ear,
The rustling sheaves,
In the ripened year—
Come, sing, boys, sing!
Sing of the yellow corn,
Sing, boys, sing,
Sing of the yellow corn
*****
Come, sing, boys, sing!
Sing of the yellow corn,🌽
Sing, boys, sing,
Sing of the yellow corn🌽
With an amorous🧡 hat 👒 on…
Hey Snow,
Well if isn’t you, as I live and breathe!! Boy is it good to see you out at this sociable time of the evening. The coffeehouse seems to have become a bar. Pull up a stool (Trifles is probably bored of me by now 🤣). What’s your tipple going to be? I think I need a brandy on the rocks.
I agree with most everything you said there about indirect disclosures etc. Thanks for chiming in. I think you’re right that in my culture hardly any woman wants to be associated with an EA or PA … so a silence is as golden as all the corn you just sent this way! Thank you for the poem; I will now never lack for agricultural vocabulary again! 🥃
LaR,
To answer your question: I can befriend with any man who never glimmered for me or gay men (I did not really pair-blinding glimmered at xLO5). Their LE affections don’t bother me at all.
One penny thought here: Take the first option of Trifler’s flirt scenarios; otherwise, you’d get disappointed.
For you, to have your T beating up your F is a huge challenge or maybe futile. I don’t even bother trying — T way is not Stoic, which let go of one’s control of anything external and always prepare/expect for the worst in any scenarios. Sorry for the nagging…
An order for me (just finished workout and a brunch) ? — Sex on the Beach!🏝️
Snow,
I might not have been brilliantly consistent across my messages today – but I tried to say in my first post to Trifles today:
-My T has beaten my F, beneficially, where it comes to not always questioning every LO interaction, no longer thinking about disclosing, things being less volatile and more consistent (F starts limerence loops, T shuts them off and says ‘no, stop this, all is OK’)
-But my F beats my T where it comes to still feeling attracted. Nothing my T can do could change that. I can’t “think it away” (for now at least), as I said to Bewitched yesterday.
I can’t and won’t see my T as an enemy (it is part of me, been there my whole life) but I see that it and F need to work together in balance.
On Trifles’ two flirting scenarios, yeah I pretty much always assume the first! I am just interested to see what she answers as I like to throw her a ‘thinker’ from time to time!
“An order for me (just finished workout and a brunch) ? — Sex on the Beach!🏝️” (Snow)
Er – I don’t quite know where to go from there 😵 I’ll go inform the bar staff!
LaR,
My concept of T has a component of “helplessly” wanting to know those unknowables, eg. What’s in LO/TO/MFF’s head. The Stoic T let that element of T rest and simply assume or expect the worst, but carry on one’s best efforts to achieve whatever is on one’s plate.
I was going to say yesterday to you, bewitched, Mila, and ABCD, and several others: with LO still in your professional vicinity, I am very curious to see how you could let LO (or dual memories of LO) “out of” your mind ( in the front or back burner). That’s indeed F’s territory — the Unconscious, and that’s what T can’t manage— the conscious mind is much smaller than the former.
Even if uncertainties, pull-n-push are, physical interactions are gone (in my case), the LE memory/dynamics still sit/act in mind or dreams. In all your cases, as soon as you interact with LO, neuro-chemical exchanges/collisions continue, out of your control. What is T going to do about it?
Determined to wave a big T stick, limerent’s moods react in their own ways… then another round of hitting low (e.g in ABCD)… I don’t have answers for effectively removing a mild “obsession” — LO concept/memory in the brain, except stick to the Buddhistic way — staring at it (such as the surge of the negative LE memories) and cry if helpful…
I use my T to execute all other mandates in my trivial life… not on my F life.
Also, my N/F/P/S are in charge of creative writing and other types of creativity; I hated it when T suppress/meddles with them and tried to make T drunk – literally a half bottle of wine for a poem homework!
Is my “Sex on the Beach”🏖️ ready? 😜
Snow,
“Even if uncertainties, pull-n-push are, physical interactions are gone (in my case), the LE memory/dynamics still sit/act in mind or dreams. In all your cases, as soon as you interact with LO, neuro-chemical exchanges/collisions continue, out of your control. What is T going to do about it?”
My view – there are bits my T can do, that are useful, but they only get me so far. T allows me to cope with day to day interactions and not get overwhelmed / keep my friendship with her steady. As I frame it for myself, when such interactions happen, the more reactive and uninhibited F is more like my biological non-exec brain, which is pulled in like a magnet and then would over-react, present leakage signs, etc. T can balance that and say ‘No, you don’t have to get pulled into that today. Just look at the evidence. Everything is OK. Just be, like you have every other time”. But I do need to recognise the ‘privileged’ position that I’m in, to be fair about this. That is – MFF has provided enough oxygen/reinforcement for my T to be able to now be in that calmer state, and I have done some serious heavy-lifting here at LwL to train myself too. It probably won’t be the same for everyone.
As for longer term removal of the limerence, I agree with you that only F can achieve that, and only when it is truly ready to. T cannot will it away although it too can get better at sitting with it and not questioning so much.
🍹🍹 Cheers – one each for Snow and Phoenix!
Snow, thank you. I’m sure I would get my answer with that test! Actually, I already know I couldn’t stop texting for 10 days! (I would have to justify it to him by saying that it isn’t good for me to get so close to someone who’s so far away.) I’m not denying that we are kind of “stuck” with/to each other now.
And LaR, I have raised the issue of too much contact with him, and he took it well. Also meaning: he didn’t seem worried about there being anything wrong with so much contact/an EA. But soon we had slipped back again to our regular frequency.
Regarding when the joking is serious… And a-ha this was also just a test question? Sure…😉 This is not the answer you need, but I actually rarely flirt like that. I have to feel very comfortable with the person. However, your LO sounds like she is probably different. But I guess you got it – you find out with your response. Or I think my eyes probably give it away. (How nonchalant do I seem afterwards?) But that’s a dangerous thing to say here on LwL where we read everything into eye contact! I text-flirt too of course, and there you have no idea whether it’s with intent or not – unless you know me well. However, I agree with Snow – take the first option! And don’t take her drink order! 😂
As for the random question – Sure, some of my friends have had gay best friends. But I think women can feel comfortable with other men as well. It’s easier to feel comfortable when said men are partnered. In my “student era” group of friends there’s a guy who is a huge flirt but we who know him well would never fall for him. And he doesn’t even try. I like to think he respects us too much. Or he knows we know too much. Besides he’s too busy chasing other women. So that’s another example of a “safe guy”.
“Cheers – one each for Snow and Phoenix!”
Oops, too late, you already took the order!
‘The customer is always right’
I resist the concept of an EA unless there have been disclosures and actual attempts to turn it into more than a friendship. I have always written long letters/e-mails to friends as well as LO’s or SO’s, and like sharing deep secrets etc. with them. But if the two people have been expressing their attraction and feelings for each other in some way, and it’s mutual—the major element—then “EA” is more fitting.
I do have a gay best friend, lol. I didn’t know this when I first started getting to know him; because of where we met, this was something he kept quiet. (I don’t want to get into more detail because I don’t want to “out” him in case anybody from there stumbles across this.) When he told me, I remember I started opening up a lot more to him because I knew a PA was not a risk. My SO is not the jealous type, but if he asked questions, it would be easy to ease his mind.
As for flirting—I’m one of those who will flirt with guys I have feelings for and just to be friendly. But my flirting is mild—smiles, laughs, teasing. And I don’t flirt with just anybody, either; usually I at least find the guy attractive. But whether it means anything—I’m not sure how to describe how to tell. Maybe it’s more intense, a certain look in the eyes. Of course when I was single, I might ask the guy out, or do other moves, making it obvious. 😉 But with barriers, you don’t want the guy getting the wrong idea.
Trifler, I told Adam once that in a bar, if you go to the refreshing room for a second, some other dude would buy me a drink (happened in reality), but I can safely take the 3rd glass from you..
LaR, I agree that T could execute all LE recovery actions and even watch F reactions. I was only saying that T can’t control chemical/neural collision that even 3rd party could see/sense when you coolly chitchat with LO/MFF (me with ET — my neurons was on fire!).
Hmmm… Double “Sex on the Beach”🍹🍹, you’d better guard your breeches… 😉
@Snow,
Happy hour here, 2 drinks for the price of 1. But thank you for the warning. I don’t want to be added to the very exclusive LwL club of confectionary being aimed at my britches!
I agree about T. It can (for me) *moderate* all the F ‘fireworks’ but can’t stop them. It does get a bit easier with time (for me). F is needed to do the later stages of healing (the disspelling of the LO from front of mind). I don’t think T can. Do you disagree?
I drafted you a long old message about that sort of stuff (T vs F), Snow. But I saw that last week was heavy for you and thought I’d keep it lighter and maybe come back to it anon.
@Trifles and @Serial Limerent
Thank you both for giving thoughts on the murky and intriguing world of flirting. Life would be terribly boring if all of that was too predictable. I think we all agree that we need at least comfort and liking (small
l) of the person to play-flirt. The rest … well … who knows 🤣 I got what you both were saying though.
LaR,
Ha, got scared 😳? Just gave you an example that sometimes a woman seems to be flirting openly, it only means teasing, going nowhere. As far as I recall, I almost never flirted in reality especially with my good or limerent friends, it’s mean/cruel to them; I had to talk/walk on a balancing rope when interacting with them occasionally.
I agree with you that the ultimate work of removing LE has to be done by F/S/N. Like Bewitched says, one really has to want an end at an emotional level. T only takes are external behaviors/actions. It’s a huge challenging to emotionally remove a clearly dualistic LO/ET in one’s head, let alone a good, such as your LO/MFF. (ABCD doesn’t know his unavailable LO enough to spot both sides).
You know how difficult when I tried to use T to remove F/P — spirituality related, in the past two weeks? Can’t tell you details here but I ended up in my pcp’s office and could not find any nameable causes for the worrisome symptom….
Even this early morning when I barely woke up, I had nightmare-like images and thought about ET/LE… that contradicted nice stuff in my mind during the waking hours…. So I gave up any intentional efforts, just letting my T go to the hell, while expecting and watching my F swing up and down, left and right…. In the end, it’s mostly my own Phantom holding the upper hand…
Everyone is different. With a personal cptsd and COO background (takes one or two books to tell), one’s relationships get a lot more complicated. I’m still chewing Schreiber’s article with a heavy heart. Anna and I could related to it very well.
Feel free to send you longer messages, from which I’m sure I could always learn something new.
ABCD
My turning point was when, despite my inability to detach for my own sake, I told myself I had to for her sake. Since you will still have some mild contact with your LO it will be different for you. But my NC with her is for her sake. I remain adamant in my resolve to let her go on with her life. In that resolve it has helped me to move forward for myself. Even when the temptation to check her out online comes up it gets easier each time to resist. To the point, now, that logic tells me that would be detrimental to myself. I guess making myself the bad guy and not demoralizing her is what helped me get where I am now.
Hi Adam. Thanks for sharing.
I have found that in general, when I wish her well, it helps me to feel better. However, due to the LO contact, there is a chance that feeling this way will pull me back deeper into LE.
I have been doing fairly okay in not checking her social media, can manage a couple of months. When I get the urge, I just hold on the thought, and then the urge dissipates.
Hi ABCD,
It sounds like you have really thought about this. I have a feeling that when you begin to exercise your agency over your time (ie: saying no to events and situations where LO is) you may feel just a small tingle of your power, gently breathing back into you. It won’t be a permanent feeling, and as your day progresses, you might feel tired, or low, and those LE thoughts may creep back with a force….but, take a moment as you say no, to enjoy that you have put yourself and your sanity first.
Again, I say this not as “you’ve put your SO first” because to me (at least in my experience) that is another ball of wax. I think right now, thinking of yourself, and what you can do to sail your ship and fix the leaks, is the very BEST thing you can do.
I say all this because I think we have parallel situations, and I am doing my own work to do same. I have worked to develop my own mindfulness (each day, I journal for about 30 minutes in the morning after I exercise…and where I exercise is where I run into LO — aagh) and I have noticed, my thoughts over time have become much less about “what was his reaction??” to “why am I not thinking about myself at all in this equation?!!”
I don’t know if you enjoy journalling, but I do. I like writing out my plans, and thinking about my philosophies. My journal is a place just for me.
I also have enjoyed listening to Stoic advice, and listening to thoughts about the “Sigma” personality. Which while it may be psychobabble, it does make me see, clearly, the kind of person I want to be. I would rather be a person who can stand steadily on her own, who knows she is secure, whether or not she is in a relationship…and so, I’m trying to build a vision of myself that I can look to, to see that goal (Instead of the hollow goal of attracting LO).
That, eat enough, sleep when you need to, recognize that the thoughts of LO will creep in especially when you are tired or anxious (and you may not realize you’re tired or anxious)…and just reminding yourself you are doing this for YOU, no one else…it will take time…it will be hard. But, you can do it, and the reward will be a stronger, more resilient and aware person.
Be well and I hope your weekend is ok. Weekends can be so tough. I’ll be coping, this weekend…and trying to do my best to avoid fantasy or anxiety, too! 🙂
Thanks CSC.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. Our mental health is the number one priority.
Yeah, its amazing how LO thoughts creep up. In my attempts to get past LE, I have seen firsthand how hard it is, and how the mind plays all these tricks. So if I say no to meeting LO, I will feel sad, and tempted to reach out again, this is the urge I need to fight against.
In this regard, I am aware that this does not work like a switch. If I decide to get over LE, it will be done, just like that. I feel it is hard, but not impossible.
Thanks ABCD.
Yeah, not impossible. Possible. But I know it’s awful. Truly.
I had been feeling stronger, but today, really felt sad. Sad I couldn’t make it with LO, wrong, rejected…somehow, I messed up my life and missed the chance to attract someone I really enjoy…all these crappy feelings.
So, yeah, I get it. And I encourage you to hang in there….It’s hard to internalize that interacting with LO is a kind of delayed/latent self-torture. But, when the pain comes, it is clear, that’s what it is. I plan to limit contact this week, even if it feels like absolute crap. It’s going to be a sad time for me, too. I understand.
CSC
ABCD,
I wish you lots of luck. You’ve made a courageous commitment to yourself here to move on from all the discomfort the LE is causing you.
Just to throw my two cents worth in, could this be a good time to try DrL’s deprogramming course? I can’t talk from experience. The reason I haven’t done it (I very nearly did) is because I don’t think I am currently capable of harbouring much negative thought towards my LO/friend. It would also not be fair for me to devalue her and remove my friendship towards her, all things being equal, when the limerent side is my creation on top. I still get net positives from her presence in my life, despite the difficulties it also adds. She has done nothing to merit devaluation.
However, that’s not the vibe I get from you. It seems the way your LO is acting now, whatever the reasons, has tilted the scales way into net negative for you. So I just wondered if now could be a good time for you to try it, on top of the other actions you plan to take. You know yourself best and I guess this depends on whether you think holding a bit more of a negative view of her would help you feel better and move on. I also think the course would teach more of the brain science of limerence and some of the tricks it spins.
Hope you have a more mentally restful weekend.
Thanks LaR. I will think about the deprogramming course.
I have tried to hold a negative view of LO, this is mostly made up in my mind. But, this has not been successful, as I cannot sustain this line of thought for long. Maybe I need to try it out more, and with more purpose.
In addition, I am trying the following:
[1] To not overthink her actions – why did she complement me so much (does she like me a lot), or why did she not talk to me that time (does she hate me).
[2] In addition to working on the thinking part, if/when we meet, just try and make regular conversations. For example, I can greet, make some small conversation, and move on. Whenever I have been successful at this, I have felt good.
I am sure I have it now, my life is shaped around her topics now. I’ve given up many of my hobbies.