My last YouTube video was stimulated by finding a new paper on how bad people are at judging each others attempts at mindreading romantic and sexual interest.
I’ve written about this topic before, but the video goes into more detail.
Hope you enjoy it!
Picture this.
You really like someone, but you’re not sure if they like you too.
So you look for signs—are they holding eye contact, standing close, playing with their hair, maybe laughing a bit too loudly at your jokes?
It seems like there might be something there.
But then you wonder: perhaps they’re just being friendly; they like you, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they are into you, romantically.
In this video I’ll show you how to find out if someone actually finds you attractive, and how to avoid getting stuck in a limbo of uncertainty.
Right, so, how to you find out whether someone finds you romantically attractive without making a fool of yourself?
Well, there are some classic signs to look out for and that’s a good starting point.
So, let’s start with…
1. Body language
This is what most people think about when they start trying to “read” another person.
And it’s undeniable that arousal, excitement, and desire, show themselves physically.
I’ve talked about some of these signs in a previous video on how to tell if someone is experiencing limerence, and there are a few key indicators.
Eye contact, for example, is an especially potent sign.
We like to look at people that we find attractive.
And that can lead to a distinctive pattern of behaviour, where we realise that we’ve looked a bit too long, so glance away, but then wonder how the other person has reacted to our gaze, so we look back.
So, long eye contact, embarrassed quick break, then look back.
Similarly, our bodies telegraph arousal. Racing heart, sweating palms, shaky hands, nervous laughter—these are all cues that give away excitement.
Or is it anxiety?
Another classic example of a body language cue that supposedly signals romantic interest is playing with hair (especially for women). So, the idea is that this is an unconscious act of preening or grooming that signals excitement.
Or is it nervousness?
Now, some people try to elevate reading these body language signs into an artform. They analyse body leaning angles. Using mirroring, pacing, and leading to try and build rapport. They grade the levels of blushing, or eye contact, or breathing rate, or lip licking.
The problem is that, in reality, all of these cues can be misread or misunderstood.
It’s also quite hard to read them while also behaving like a normal person.
The reality is that these clues are subtle and hard to interpret confidently.
Someone can be pleased to see you, and light up when you come near, and smile, give you a hug, and seem really happy, just because they like your company as a friend.
And someone could be nervous and excitable because they’re worried about making a good impression, or even because you make them uncomfortable.
Likewise, some people shut down when they’re nervous, they flatten their expressions and mute their body language. So they like you, the emotional storm of being near you inhibits their body; concealing their intent rather than giving it away.
And finally, of course, not everyone is neurotypical. For some people all these subtle cues are easily missed, not understood, and not returned. Eye contact does not have the same meaning. Social signs are misconstrued or not perceived at all.
People aren’t as easy to read as we’d like to believe.
So, is there something a bit more obvious, a bit more reliable as a measure of romantic interest?
What about…
2. Flirting
Yeah, OK. So if someone is leaning in close, laughing at your jokes, gazing into your eyes, accidentally brushing against you whenever they can, winking suggestively, and making constant sexual innuendo, you might be onto something.
But flirting is another behaviour that is fraught with misunderstandings.
People’s motives for flirting can be very variable.
Some people see it as sport—just a playful way to add a bit of sparkle and excitement to social life.
Others use it as a way of communicating admiration, but without any intention to act on their desire. So it’s a sort sidelong way of saying “I find you attractive, and I’d like you to know that, but I’m not going to do anything about it”.
Some people flirt with everyone, others only flirt with the select few they really like.
And, of course, people vary in their prowess for flirting.
Some are like virtuosos, and flirt with an easy charm that is very flattering and makes other people feel special. Others have the grace of a bull in a china shop, barging around with crude jokes and clumsy innuendo.
Finally, flirting can potentially carry a high risk in the wrong context. Flirting at work for example is fraught with danger—you might be seen as trying to gain favours, or manipulate other people, or even sexually harassing a co-worker.
There are obviously times when flirting is a bad idea.
So, where does all this leave us when it comes to figuring out if someone else actually does like us romantically?
Well, in a bit of a mess, frankly.
3. The uncertainty trap
The fundamental problem with relying on reading body language or motives for flirtation is that we can never actually know what’s going on in other people’s minds.
We can’t reliably infer their intentions from outward signs of arousal.
The signals are just too ambiguous—the “signal to noise ratio” is low—so your own preconceptions will shape how you interpret them and respond.
OK, so maybe people who are really infatuated—who are limerent for you, for example—will struggle to hide the signs of attraction from bursting out.
But, for more subtle signs it’s easy to misread platonic attraction as sexual or romantic interest.
Someone who really likes you, but only as a friend. Or someone who admires you, and lights up with the enthusiasm of a fan. Or someone who is flattered by the attention that you give them and enjoys being desired.
In fact, most of us are actually quite poor at recognising when other people are flirting with us.
There’s a good body of evidence that both men and women routinely mistinterpret romantic and sexual interest.
Men have a tendency to overinterpret female friendliness as sexual interest.
Women have a tendency to underinterpret male sexual interest as friendliness.
Both sexes tend to assume that other people are more motivated by sex than they are.
Now, that in itself is part of the tragicomedy of romantic life, but things can get even worse.
If we spend too long scrutinising and analysing how someone feels about us, we can end up going down a rabbit hole of rumination and obsession that ends up making us want them even more.
Hesitation and indecision adds to the uncertainty of mindreading, and that can lead into an unexpected trap.
They become a central puzzle in your life, a reward you can’t secure, a prize you’re desperate to win but which always seems just out of reach.
Those are the perfect psychological conditions for reinforcing limerence, a romantic infatuation that can escalate into an addiction to another person.
What’s even worse about that is that limerence wrecks your judgement. Once you’re in a state of intense infatuation, you’re so desperate for reciprocation of romantic feelings that you overinterpret like mad—seeing hints everywhere and seeking signs of hope in everything they do.
You’re in an altered state of mind, and that makes it even less likely that you’ll be able to read them accurately.
4. How to find out for sure
Right, so I’ve spent most of the video casting doubt on all the classic ways to find out if someone is attracted to you—it’s time for a bit more optimism.
So when you’re faced with a signal to noise problem, the simplest solution is to reduce the noise.
You can’t really rely on indirect measures of revealed attraction.
You have to be direct.
You have to cut through all the noise and uncertainty by just coming out and expressing your own feelings, honestly.
How and when to do that will depend on the specific circumstances you’re dealing with, and there are also different expectations and strategies, of course, depending on if you are a man or woman, and on your sexual orientation.
But directness is always the best route forwards.
So, the first step is to look for objective signs that there’s no hope.
If the person you are attracted to is married, or flirts with everyone they meet, or is unavailable or unsuitable for some other reason, whether or not they’re attracted to you is irrelevant.
It’s a lost cause, so it’s best to just stop trying to solve the riddle and walk away.
Assuming instead that you and they are free to act, by all means try and read their body language and flirting behaviour.
Now if there isn’t much signal to be seen, don’t give up hope, but do be cautious about how to express yourself. Unless you’re really skilled at banter, just go for simple honesty.
I think you’re really great. I like you a lot. How do you feel about me?
Or just the totally straightforward,
Would you like to go on a date?
Now you might feel like you’re risking a lot with this direct approach, but the pain of rejection is a short, sharp blow to the ego.
Compare that to the long, slow agony of falling into unresolved limerent obsession. That can go on for months, even years. It really is no contest.
If you do think you can see signs of attraction from them, the same direct approach works, but you can also be a bit more daring.
You’re gorgeous. Wanna to go on a date?
Directness takes all the uncertainty out of the situation.
You can’t hover in the friendzone anymore, hoping that maybe you’ll persuade them into a romantic relationship one day.
And you also won’t descend into the hell of limerent rumination, if you have asked a direct question and got a direct answer.
So, the point of this is that the hints and clues and signs and person-reading should only ever be a prelude to actually taking action.
They can certainly determine how confident you feel about taking a chance, but the only way to know is to cut through the noise and be direct.
Developing the resilience to risk rejection but seek certainty is a much more valuable skill for finding love, than developing the ability to measure pupil width and breathing rate.
And as a last point, it’s also worth pointing out that some people out there know all the body language signs, and they use them, to manipulate others.
They test how responsive someone is to their subtle signs of attraction in order to determine whether or not they could “land” that person.
These players enjoy the thrill of the chase. They get a high from seducing others into falling in love with them. They plant false hope, so that people get hooked on them, because they get emotional reward from inspiring desire.
Being direct spoils these sorts of games. They can be neutralised by simple honesty. It takes all the fun out of the chase if you just come out and say that you are attracted to them.
It ruins the game as they can’t use plausible deniability to dance around on the edge of propriety anymore.
So directness let’s you know for sure if someone finds you attractive, and it also liberates you from time wasters and game players.
Let’s not leave out banter.
https://examples-of.net/is-banter-flirting/
One of the outcomes of banter is to build rapport. If you’re a limerent, rapport appears to be a stepping stone to attachment.
LO #4 and I engaged in Sarcastic and Intellectual Banter to the point where other moderators on her site began to question it.
LO #4 once said that my correspondence with her contained two of her favorite things, imagery and snark.
👩🦰 🏃♂️,
As an ESL speaker, I’d be 99.9% lost if a native-speaker tries to banter with me, with whatever purpose in his/her mind.
LO5, a HSP, artistic intellectual in limerent camp, used to love banter but told me that banter with other women never really worked, he wasn’t sure why… But I think while banter is not a primary way to build connection, unable to banter would certainly make one feel dull, inadequate or plainly stupid. 😏
Regardless different cultural and linguistic background, in order to well understand each other and build up emotional and mental rapport, friends and partners need to clarify “an emotional and mental dictionary of love (7 types)”; otherwise, even Wittgenstein would be driven mad!
https://youtu.be/qbW-513h5vg?si=g1lARSmF9a5cxB5E — A Dictionary of Love.
Never make assumptions even if you (plural) speak same Mother tongue!
Snow,
IMO, to effectively banter one has to like that kind of interaction. Some people do, some people don’t. I think effective banterers need to be:
Empathetic – It helps with knowing who you’re dealing with.
Perceptive – You want to be ahead of your sparring partner.
Quick-witted – In verbal banter, time is of the essence. In written banter, you have more time to craft a perfect retort but the sooner the better.
Fluent in the language – Banter/repartee is a game of nuances and finesse. It’s a rapier not a cudgel. Vocabulary matters.
LO #1 & LO #4 liked to banter and were good at it. LO #2 and my wife are capable of it but don’t like to banter.
If I see someone I think I’d like to banter with, I send something out and see how they respond.
👩🦰 🏃♂️,
“IMO, to effectively banter one has to like that kind of interaction. Some people do, some people don’t. I think effective banterers need to be:”
It’s just like enjoy games, poker or chess playing, etc. Banter is a verbal French Fencing — sophisticated, sharp and can “kill”.
“Empathetic – It helps with knowing who you’re dealing with.”
Definitely, you learn about the other side’s strength (“Selfs”), personality (“protectors”) and (mostly covered) vulnerabilities (“exiles”. We all wish to be seen, understand and appreciated; some desire them more than others.
“Perceptive – You want to be ahead of your sparring partner.”
If it’s just for the fun of playing game, wanting “to be ahead” is understandable and even preferable. But in close friendship or romantic relationship, do we treat the other side as a “sparring partner”? What about desirability, harmonious connection, or loving intimacy? Can two matching chess players necessarily become compatible, lovable partners in a steady, fulfilling relationship?
“Quick-witted – In verbal banter, time is of the essence. In written banter, you have more time to craft a perfect retort but the sooner the better.”
Most certainly! I really enjoy reading others’ written banters (getting better in verbal ones in real time, ie. In movies), but I’m utterly incapable of playing it as ESL speaker.
“Fluent in the language – Banter/repartee is a game of nuances and finesse. It’s a rapier not a cudgel. Vocabulary matters.”
Totally required! Even in my native tongue, I don’t like it. In general, I dislike superficial chitchats or verbal-game playing that revealed subtle or obvious complaints or cynicism. I also found wanting to show off or proving they’re smarter than you is off putting. Intelligence or knowledge is NOT maturity or wisdom; haven’t we seen very intelligent and knowledgeable people losing “their head” here? 🙂
“LO #1 & LO #4 liked to banter and were good at it. LO #2 and my wife are capable of it but don’t like to banter.”
That might explain why your wife has become and still remains your wife, not LO#1 or LO #4. (The same applies to the highly intelligent, knowledgeable, witty, and artistic but cynical, depressed LO#5 here: despite my repeated efforts, I couldn’t cultivate that Glimmer or adequate adoration for him in decades… )
“If I see someone I think I’d like to banter with, I send something out and see how they respond.”
I like sincere, honest conversation/chats in which either side is not afraid of relaxing IFS’ “protectors”, revealing vulnerabilities, and showing authentic “Selfs” — everyone HAS them, be they still sleeping or awakened.
If you try to banter with me, you’d end up explaining yourself and losing all its fun! 🙃
Per this post, I think verbal banter can be a sign someone finds you attractive. It reminds me of Old Hollywood couples like Bogart and Bacall.
For me, personally, I’d have to already find the person attractive and being able to banter with them would be a plus. But it doesn’t make me attracted to the person.
Marcia,
In my experience, with some women, where their mind goes, their body follows.
I really got that vibe with LO #4. However, there’s a fine line between assertive and obnoxious. I went at her too hard. I thought there must have been one he’ll of a prize inside that Cracker Jack box.
You shouldn’t be doing well what you shouldn’t be doing at all.
“In my experience, with some women, where their mind goes, their body follows.”
I agree, it’s why someone like Salman Rushdie has women lined up. He’s brilliant.
But for me, the brilliance is a separate quality. I have to be attracted first.
Isn’t it the same for men? You want a woman who is, for example, kind, but if you’re not attracted to her, the kindness is kind of irrelevant.
I still have the same reaction to Momma taking off her shirt to change in 1999 as I do in 2026. And she has the same reaction to my reaction. I don’t think a lot of women understand how simplistic men are. Personally no woman needs to be conventionally attractive. At the same time I can find Anne Coulter so damn hot but not a good person. And Momma wants to punch me for it.
Recently I was looking at some family pics from about 20-25 years ago. Around the time my kids were still very young. I forgot how cute my Wife was then and how many pics I took of her before my Daughter was born. Obviously I was attracted but never to a point I was crazy or limerent over her. She had a simplicity about her that was cute all by itself. I remember her kindness and laughter. The way we worked as a couple. I miss that.
I started getting emotional seeing her as a young 30-something Woman again and regret all over, screwing a good thing up.
To Adam:
Very surprised that you find Ann Coulter to be hot.
Brother
I get you reminiscing about your wife. I recently got a new phone and all the photos on iCloud were on my phone. 10,000 of them. I saw a picture of Momma from probably around 2020 (when she took a picture in the car coming back from the saloon) and her hair was all colored and curly and she had a bang that came down in her face. It’s probably my favorite picture of her. It’s the wallpaper on my phone. It wasn’t that she spent $80 once the Covid lifted it was just Momma looked so damn hot. Daddy wanted to 😏
Dear Norma
I feel the same way about Sarah Palin. Something about conservative women bowls the ball down the alley for me even when I don’t agree with their views. Darling is very liberal and I like that about her. But maybe that’s it. Darling really hates I like Coulter at that level. Palin a little less so I think
It’s an interesting topic. Do someone’s celebrity crushes (for lack of a better description) affect how you think about them? I’d say yes. I have asked guys who they like. Sometimes I’m pleasantly surprised because their choices are interesting. Or at least the reasons why they like the woman are interesting. Beyond just: She’s hot. But sometimes their choices are disappointing. Or downright horrifying. 🙂
“Something about conservative women bowls the ball down the alley for me even when I don’t agree with their views.”
Brother
You would probably really like Kat Timpf then. I know I do. LF has glasses just like hers. It’s hot. Look her up.. 😆
OMG. You two really are brothers. 🙂
I have heard enough about your taste. I’m going to have to find some other dudes to talk to. 🙂
I think Norma will be joining me in my search, but I’ll let her speak for herself. 🙂
To Marcia:
I am shaking my head.
ND:
“I am shaking my head.”
I’m having a wave of nausea. 🙂
“OMG. You two really are brothers. 🙂 I have heard enough about your taste. I’m going to have to find some other dudes to talk to. 🙂 ”
Marcia,
You can’t find some other Dude to talk to. I didn’t give you permission to find some other Dude to talk to. I run your ship. We’ve talked about this.😆
Besides if you were seeing and reading correctly, you would have noticed my post was directed at Brother Adam. Not Dear Marcia. 😆
Just be glad I didn’t mention for him to look up Karoline Leavitt. He might find her very likable also. I’ve been crushing on her for a minute. And she’s into older Dudes too. She’s only 28 and her Husband is like 60.. Lucky freakin Dude he is. Comin home to that every night. Having his babies.
Age gaps rule.. 😁
MJ,
“You can’t find some other Dude to talk to. I didn’t give you permission to find some other Dude to talk to. I run your ship. ”
This is the most interesting you’ve ever been. 🙂
“Just be glad I didn’t mention for him to look up Karoline Leavitt. He might find her very likable also. I’ve been crushing on her for a minute. And she’s into older Dudes too. She’s only 28 and her Husband is like 60.. .”
I didn’t know she was so young. I thought she was at least 35.
“and her Husband is like 60.. .”
He’s very wealthy.
It’s a smart move on her part. Do her time and eventually be set for life. And she can still hook up with the pool boy. 🙂
“This is the most interesting you’ve ever been. 🙂”
Marcia
I hope you mean that in a good way. Been trying to tell you forever I’m a good Dude. Besides just some random middle aged twit limerent, that can’t ever get a coffee date. Sometimes I even like myself but its rare. I’m my own worst enemy. 😆
“I didn’t know she was so young. I thought she was at least 35.”
Yeah her speech style makes her appear older. I happen to like her confidence. I find it super attractive when a Woman is smart and speaks intelligently. Like she owns the room. Probably the reason I always liked the Woman Manager I had back in my 20s. She was older than me but ran things her way. I never minded. I found her kind of attractive.
“And she can still hook up with the pool boy. 🙂”
I’ll be her pool boy, yard man, chauffeur, butler, slave, whatever, if it means a hookup. 😆 That is ONLY after I meet, marry and/or divorce LO. 🥰
MJ,
“I hope you mean that in a good way.”
Yes
“Yeah her speech style makes her appear older.”
No, she looks older.
“She was older than me but ran things her way. I never minded. I found her kind of attractive.”
Wow. “Kind of attractive.” The words every woman longs to hear. 🙂
“I’ll be her pool boy, yard man, chauffeur, butler, slave, whatever, if it means a hookup. 😆 ”
Oh, my precious. Pool boys are by definition young and very muscly. But you knew that, didn’t you? 🙂
She doesn’t need another older man. She’s married to one.
“So directness let’s you know for sure if someone finds you attractive”
I don’t think most limerents want to know. It’s more fun trying to read the tea leaves. 🙂
If you ask, you’ll get an answer. Which can kill the limerence. Provided you actually listen to the answer. And take its message to heart. Even a vague or contradictory answer (LO says one thing but does another) is still an answer. And not a positive one, unfortunately.
An adept wing person/friend can maybe watch the limerent and LO together … but it’s still reading the tea leaves. Just asking someone else to do it. (I have been guilty of asking someone to do this and friends have asked me to do it.)
Marcia,
Disclosure does come with risk.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/if-i-only-knew/
But, as you pointed out, it can kill the limerence. Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn’t. https://livingwithlimerence.com/can-limerence-be-safely-harnessed/
My therapist’s favorite question was “What would you do with the knowledge if you had?” The woman could be a real buzzkill.
LE,
“But, as you pointed out, it can kill the limerence. Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn’t. ”
I think it can kill it. If the limerent listens to the answer. Anything less than pretty much, “Yes I feel the same way,” is a no. At least that’s how I’d read it.
I’m going to reference a song. One I know that you know, given when it was released. 🙂 “This Is It” by Kenny Loggins. “Are you gonna wait for a sign, your miracle? Stand up and fight.”
That’s how it feels when you disclose. It’s a big moment. How the LO responds tells the limerent a lot.
“My therapist’s favorite question was “What would you do with the knowledge if you had?””
Well, that’s just it. Even if the limerent gets the answer he/she wants, what’s the point of getting the information?
“The woman could be a real buzzkill.”
Ha! Yes. Mine’s a buzzkill, too. It’s their job. To pour ice-cold water on any and all hopes. 🙂
“One I know that you know, given when it was released. 🙂 “This Is It” by Kenny Loggins.”
Marcia
Talk about a yacht-rock exclusive. Holy Crap. Thank you for making me feel super old with this.. 😂
MJ,
“Thank you for making me feel super old with this.. 😂”
That you knew it was yacht rock gave your age away. I didn’t have to do anything. What are you listening to right now? Christopher Cross? 🙂
“This Is It” is such a song about limerence … the LO is FINALLY going to say something.
“The waiting is over, no, don’t you run
No way to hide
No time for wonderin’ why
It’s here, the moment is now, about to decide”
“That you knew it was yacht rock gave your age away. I didn’t have to do anything. What are you listening to right now? Christopher Cross? 🙂”
Marcia
How many times have I told you to stop telling all my secrets? 😆 So what if I’m jamming out to “Ride like the wind” Its better than “This is it” which is so cringey bad. Even if it is the perfect limerence song. I would never subject LOs playlist to such rubbish. That Woman has high standards. 😆
Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to get back to work and see if I can irritate LF while I jam out to some “Toto” 😆
“Yeah, but do you want to blend in? Who wants that?”
Marcia
I must be in a different place than you are because I don’t care if I’m never noticed at all. I prefer to fly under the radar. This way if I do get spotted by a female (and this happens to me more often than I lead others to believe it does) I can gauge whether or not to pursue. Especially if I continue seeing this person around. I’m probably still taking too long to ask them out.
But getting the eye contact, saying hello, getting a smile, initiating conversation. It’s getting easier. My goal is to not drag it out like it was with LO and never do nothing.
“Ten years ago or so, the “it” girl was Megan Fox. Or Scarlett Johansson. If you asked a good number of guys what celebrity women they liked, those two would have been named. Objectively, those are good-looking women.”
Add 2 more Women who are just mid to me. I’m not one who is/was enamored with either of them. Megan Fox looked good to me for about 5 minutes. When she was on 2 and a half men. (We’ve talked about this) Thats about the only time I gave her a second look. Far as I was concerned, she looked too ordinary. Not unattractive. Just ordinary.. Same for Ms. Johansson. Objectively attractive? 🤔 Perhaps to a lot of Dudes but count me out of that crowd.
“Yes, that’s true. But someone who is conventionally attractive will have a better shot at others finding them attractive.”
I get this. It makes sense. I’ve been going it alone for quite a long time. The market is tough. For Women I still think this is easier. A lot of men are just in it for the tail and because many probably have misogynistic attitudes. It is probably easier if the parties are more conventionally attractive. However, ugly Women can get in on the game too because many men are just that willing.
There is a Woman I see at the store every so often, who by no means I find attractive in the least. She’s probably in her late 20s/early 30s. She wears the tightest most hideously fitting dresses I’ve ever seen on the opposite sex. She wears ugly high heels that are way to tall for her because she doesn’t know how to walk in them. On top of all this she smells awful. She wears (more like pours on) the ugliest/cheapest most god awful smelling perfume known to humankind. Her face is not great, she wears too much makeup and basically she looks like a very bad human blow up doll. Yet every week I see her, she’s with the same guy that obviously adores her and they seem to get along well. I honestly don’t know what he sees in her and I don’t really care. If thats what floats his boat, so be it. At least he has someone. Which is more than I can say.
“But you go on and on about female beauty, so I (perhaps wrongly) assumed you were only talking about the most attractive women by general standards. And women who were fairly young.”
Probably because I still have my head up in the clouds half the time over some made up standard, they have to be younger and so gorgeous beautiful like LO. No Woman is ever going to live up to her in my book. But that is between God and myself.
LF is hardly close to looking like, dressing like or being anything like LO. She’s cute and all, is basically sweet but she loves drama. As much as her and I have butted heads, hated and ignored each other, I’m still crazy about her. Even though she seriously pisses me off. She’s incredibly immature but for some reason I don’t care. I guess I accept the mediocrity because its attention and some attention is better than nothing. She puts up with my bs and so I have to give her credit where its due. But I know my place and orbiting I am not. (Not today at least 😆)
NO! It’s about RESPECTING YOURSELF!
Yes I get it, I get it..
I’m trying to do better Dear. And you are right about gaining more respect from a Woman. About moving on. Rather than hovering and waiting around for a particular response from them. Confidence is sexy.
Fyi, just found out my Hilary is the Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition cover model this year and she looks gorgeous. Yes, even at her ripe, old, antiquated age of 38.. 😆
MJ,
“I must be in a different place than you are because I don’t care if I’m never noticed at all. ”
Huh? I sure do. Who wants to be ordinary? Who wants to be overlooked? It doesn’t always have to be about appearance. If you’re the CEO of a company, your 100 employees notice you. If you’re the doctor, people are waiting for you to show up, etc. But as a general rule, if you don’t have some kind of success or special talent or … idk … charisma … well, appearance is what’s left in the arsenal.
“I prefer to fly under the radar. This way if I do get spotted by a female (and this happens to me more often than I lead others to believe it does) I can gauge whether or not to pursue. ”
I’m not following why flying under the radar matters in this scenario.
“Add 2 more Women who are just mid to me. I’m not one who is/was enamored with either of them. ”
You’re intentionally missing my point.
The Hemsworth brothers. Women swoon over them. Are they my type? No. But I can objectively look at them and see that they have handsome faces, insanely fit bodies, are tall. Objectively, they are good looking. There’s a reason they get paid to be in movies, and while they’re skilled enough actors, a big part of it is their looks.
“For Women I still think this is easier. ”
I’m not sure why you keep pointing this out. You need to be angry at men about this, not women. Most women don’t want cheap sex with guys who will hook up with just about anyone. So this thing you think is a female advantage … women don’t even want.
“They have to be younger and so gorgeous beautiful like LO. No Woman is ever going to live up to her in my book. But that is between God and myself. … LF is hardly close to looking like, dressing like or being anything like LO.”
As I wrote before, I won’t continue to go over these women with you. Also on the list: Bank Chick and Dinner/Pizza/Church Chick.
“I’m trying to do better Dear. And you are right about gaining more respect from a Woman.”
You’re gaining SELF-RESPECT. I hate this expression because I think it’s cheesy, but you see it in a lot of youtube video titles. “How to be a high-value woman.” Or “How a high-value woman handles ghosting.” But the term is used for both sexes. High-value men don’t give their time to women who don’t value it. And one of those ways to not value your time is … she’ll text you (possibly for the attention and validation) but won’t meet up with you.
“Confidence is sexy.”
Well, having standards is sexy.
“Fyi, just found out my Hilary is the Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition cover model this year and she looks gorgeous. Yes, even at her ripe, old, antiquated age of 38.. ”
She’s a little long in the tooth for you, isn’t she? 🙂
But in all seriousness … she’s very attractive. Again, objectively, an attractive person.
“But as a general rule, if you don’t have some kind of success or special talent or … idk … charisma … well, appearance is what’s left in the arsenal.”
Marcia
I do have some talents. I can play the big piano, I’m good at yard work and don’t mind a good round of golf now and then. As for my attitude, I try to show up and be in the best place I can emotionally, when I don’t let feelings get the best of me. As for my looks, I don’t know. I give myself usually around a 5. Or 6 to 6.5 if I’m having a good hair day.
A cute younger black girl I’ve known at work for a few years called me handsome the other day. She’s complimented me before and seems to enjoy my older person company whenever I see her. There’s also been a lot of positive eye contact between us, but I’ve just never been sure about her. If she wasn’t pregnant now and having so many issues outside of work, I’d totally ask her out. But her life seems like it could be a total mess and I don’t think I need or want her drama on top of mine. Unless of course its just for hookup sex, which at this point in my life, might not be a bad thing. But not while she’s expecting.. 😯
“I’m not following why flying under the radar matters in this scenario.”
It doesn’t. But I don’t ever really try to show off. I’m good with whatever modicum of respect I get from anyone. Being a goofball or trying to model myself like Dude did with the Women in your office is not my style at all. I’m hardly model material.
“Objectively, they are good looking. There’s a reason they get paid to be in movies, and while they’re skilled enough actors, a big part of it is their looks.”
I get this. Good looking people probably do better at attracting. But there’s someone for everyone. So they say. My problem is it feels like a lifetime since good luck came my way. Even then was it really good luck? Last SO dumped me so she could be with her big corn-fed lookin Dude. Then married his fata$$! I thought I was the better choice, but I guess the bigger the better for her.. Whatever.. 🤨
“I’m not sure why you keep pointing this out. You need to be angry at men about this, not women.”
I used to have this debate with my Ex all the time. Even though at the time, she wasn’t the type. What I meant by it, is that I think its always easier for a Woman to go out and get sex. Provided, thats what SHE WANTS to do. I always told her on any given night, she would probably have way better luck shagging someone of the opposite sex, more-so than I ever could. It’s not what every Woman does or is about, but I’ll bet its whole lot easier for them to get it, than it is for me at this stage. Now that model wannabe Dude you used to work with? He might not have as much trouble.
“As I wrote before, I won’t continue to go over these women with you. Also on the list: Bank Chick and Dinner/Pizza/Church Chick.”
If you keep this up, I’m gonna have to start talking to you about Dudes and I’m not even gay. Should I switch teams? 😆
“She’s a little long in the tooth for you, isn’t she? 🙂”
Maybe only a little. She gives off a little LO vibe sometimes. Especially in the blonde hair, eyes and in her smile. So its easy to become smitten.. Too bad she’s not a Latina.. 🥰😆
Indifference and ambivalence, or in part perceived ambivalence to has like gas on a bonfire to the limerent. And LO was very good at it. It’s like enabling to an addict of any kind. If there’s no clear message one way or the other it just feeds the fire. I’m bad, but not THAT bad.
“It’s like enabling to an addict of any kind. If there’s no clear message one way or the other it just feeds the fire. ”
IMO, someone not being clear is a bad sign. If someone is interested and they want you to know, they’ll tell you. Or at least do something to open the door so that you can tell them.
Miss Marcia in a healthy relationship I totally agree with you. Limerence isn’t healthy.
“Miss Marcia in a healthy relationship I totally agree with you. Limerence isn’t healthy.”
I agree, although I still think, even in limerence, if they LO wants to clear up the mystery, they will.
But you’ve written a few times your LO led you on. I wasn’t at work with you every day to witness her behavior, but since she’s left the job, she’s done nothing to lead you on.
“But you’ve written a few times your LO led you on.”
Marcia
I think in the mind of the limerent, that’s what we would want to believe but deep we know better.
I don’t believe his LO led him on any more than mine did. She may have liked the attention to a degree, but wasn’t sure how to diffuse it. Or didn’t care to put effort into it. In my case, she just ignored me or walked in a different direction when she saw me coming her way..
In his case, I think she tried to stay neutral while still remaining kind. Knowing he had a Wife and family at home.
MJ,
“I don’t believe his LO led him on any more than mine did. She may have liked the attention to a degree, but wasn’t sure how to diffuse it. Or didn’t care to put effort into it. In my case, she just ignored me or walked in a different direction when she saw me coming her way..
In his case, I think she tried to stay neutral while still remaining kind. Knowing he had a Wife and family at home.”
I think you’re implying the LOs gave more thought to the situations than they probably did. Possibly both women enjoyed the attention. I can’t get inside their heads, but if I were to guess, in general, most LOs aren’t walking around feeling fraught about their limerents. And in Adam’s case, when his LO left the job, her relationships with almost all, if not all, of her co-workers more than likely ended. That’s usually what happens.
“So what if I’m jamming out to “Ride like the wind” ”
I love that song! You got some great backing vocals by Michael McDonald.
“Gonna ride like the wind before I get old. ”
We lost that battle, didn’t we? 🙁
“I would never subject LOs playlist to such rubbish. That Woman has high standards. 😆”
Um … how would you know? You never spoke to her. For all you know, she likes BAD BUNNY! HA HA. She’s a young woman, she probably does! 🙂
“Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to get back to work and see if I can irritate LF while I jam out to some “Toto” 😆”
Wow … what a way to underscore your age to a young woman. Play music her parents probably listened to. That’ll rev her engine up. (Sarcasm implied. :))
I think what made her feel comfortable about the attention I gave her was that she knew it was genuine. Not Ginuwine. Yeah sure there was the limerence. But I honestly had no desire to cross that line with her.
“I think you’re implying the LOs gave more thought to the situations than they probably did. Possibly both women enjoyed the attention.”
Marcia
Well my altered state of mind wanted to believe it but truthfully I think it comes down to what you, Lovisa and many others told me back then, is that I made her uncomfortable. But I was so infatuated and out of my mind over the idea of her, I never wanted to believe it. Although I couldn’t explain her continual staring at me or even her lock-on stares, she never stopped to chat with me, was ever probably actually, truly available and had little to no interest in ever doing anything with me at all. I tried always to read her body language and it scared the holy hell out of me. I couldn’t approach.
If, at any time there was a slight window I could’ve gotten in, I completely missed it.
“I love that song! You got some great backing vocals by Michael McDonald.
“Gonna ride like the wind before I get old. ”
We lost that battle, didn’t we? 🙁”
I forgot he did backup on “This is it” too. Like his voice just makes me feel like that was ages ago and I guess it was. Yes we’ve totally lost that battle my dear.. 😆
“Um … how would you know? You never spoke to her. For all you know, she likes BAD BUNNY! HA HA. She’s a young woman, she probably does! 🙂”
Anything I know about LO is mostly from her TikToks.
Which are mainly about her and/or her side hustle which is doing hair coloring, hair extensions and lashes. Or she’s posted about the great food she finds around the city and sometimes posts herself eating it. Which I find quite adorable and amusing. I mean she could probably post herself praying the rosary or picking leaves off trees or folding her laundry and I’d find it adorable just the same, but this is LO we’re talking about here. 🥰
As for her taste in music, she’s mainly into Latin American type music and occasionally some rap. She likes Karol G and was hoping to get tickets to go see Fuerza Regida. She also likes classic Latin American music too, so naturally some of my dedicated playlist to her features that. I know she was also at Lolla last year to see Sabrina. You know, cause I really kinda think they might be long lost Sisters. So I can only imagine how much fun they would be together.. 😍
“Wow … what a way to underscore your age to a young woman. Play music her parents probably listened to. That’ll rev her engine up. (Sarcasm implied. :))”
Yeah I was only kidding about that. I still try to be the cool older guy LF works with. The one that gives her Dad-vibes. No Toto for her, thats for sure.. 😆
Her and I have a common thing we do around each other now. Which is seeing how many times we can tell each other to “f— off” every night. Either that or we give each other the finger. I think it’s been her way of expunging some of her hatred towards my past honesty to her. But I also think its because she never wanted to hate me for it either. I’m being respectful to her now, per her request and I don’t orbit. (Or at least in the way I used to) I think its just nice we can be decent to each other again without things being awkward. I’ll still go and talk to her. She’s implied she was curious about what was up with me and NG but never fully admitted it. Somehow I could just tell. I feel like my attention to another Woman made her a little jealous, but wtf? I don’t know, I guess I just feel like I want her to like me a lot more still but I know she can’t and I won’t expect it. I like how we get along now. I’ve missed it. I’m glad she’s sorta back. But it’s still not the same.
MJ,
“If, at any time there was a slight window I could’ve gotten in, I completely missed it.”
I still think you want to think about why you didn’t approach. I think there’s more to it than this.
But, yes, there is a window. I’d say it’s more once you start talking to someone. If you approach and chat her up several times … there’s the window. Ask her out. Or she might think: What’s this guy doing?
“Anything I know about LO is mostly from her TikToks.”
I stopped reading after this first sentence. This tells me everything. 🙂
“Yeah I was only kidding about that. I still try to be the cool older guy LF works with. The one that gives her Dad-vibes.”
NO! Any man who gave me dad vibes would be an immediate “never going to happen.” Now and when I was younger. I don’t mean that you can’t be a father but that you reminded me in any way of mine or a parental figure.
“I feel like my attention to another Woman made her a little jealous, but wtf? ”
It would make me a little jealous if I were in her shoes, too. It would be more of a bruised ego.
“I’m glad she’s sorta back. But it’s still not the same.”
I was watching this video the other day. About what secure people do when they are breadcrumbed. They say to themselves: This person is wasting my time. And they walk. Not in any big, loud, way. Not announcing, “Here I am, walking away!” They just quietly disappear. And she did breadcrumb you. I don’t know how conscious it was, but she gave you just enough to hang on without really following through in any concrete way. If it were me, I would not be giving her any kind of attention that validated her. She made her choice; she can get that kind of attention from her boyfriend.
I’d be pleasant but not validating.
“I stopped reading after this first sentence. This tells me everything. 🙂”
Marcia
It’s too bad I can’t post LOs pages. All her stuff is public so anyone can access it. I’d love to hear your opinions. Perhaps then you might understand better a little of that limerent madness that persists on my end. Aggravating but manageable.
“I still think you want to think about why you didn’t approach. I think there’s more to it than this.”
Mainly it was just me finding her incredibly beyond attractive and feeling she was so out of my league. Knowing her type won’t usually go for cads like myself. Yet that changed when she smiled at me. I guess thats when the hope increased but it still didn’t convince me to go for it. Having the fantasy of what could be has always been important to keep at the forefront. Even though I do know better.
“NO! Any man who gave me dad vibes would be an immediate “never going to happen.” ”
I suppose this isn’t so much the issue now as it is just having the friendship.
She only mentioned I gave her Dad-vibes a few times. But that was because I was genuinely only looking out for her. For whatever reason, having her around at work was/is always nice. I liked her company and I kinda thought we vibed. When she told me her Father was pretty much an a$$hole to her up until about 6 years ago, I started thinking perhaps I was the type of Father she’d want to have if things could be better between them. Perhaps thats why my disclosure rubbed her the wrong way. Although she’s never said it was..
To me it has always been super confusing because I catch her staring at me all the time. Even while we didn’t talk for almost a year now, I would still notice. I feel like she wanted me to notice. Could it really be about still needing my validation? Is that all it takes for some Women? It’s like her eyes are saying something and I want to know what that is, but it never comes out of her the way I want it to.
“It would make me a little jealous if I were in her shoes, too. It would be more of a bruised ego.”
She’s noticed I’ve stepped back a little from NG lately but isn’t saying anything to me about it. I kinda hope it bruised her ego. Thats what I wanted.
That Casey Zander Dude you hate talks a lot about Women’s egos in his videos and this topic comes up often. (That and satisfying hypergamy) Women aren’t attracted to certain Men until those Men are attracted to other Women because there obviously must be some value they (the men) have, that they in turn want for themselves.
I mean to me as much sense as that really doesn’t make, it actually kinda does. In the case of LF, I feel like a lot of what he talks about in his videos could easily pertain to her because she seems to just fit that mold. In all of its stupid insanity. (Turn everything I learned upside down and throw a lot of it in the trash while I’m at it.) I’ve always said I think she’s a little nuts. In a good way though. She still goes to church every Sunday.. 😆
“If it were me, I would not be giving her any kind of attention that validated her. She made her choice; she can get that kind of attention from her boyfriend.
I’d be pleasant but not validating.”
Twice last week (Surprising because any time she makes for me now always catches me off guard.) LF approached me walking into work. Which is usually a decent little walk for us. Almost 15 minutes and more if we stop at the bathrooms. Her demeanor was very casual and typical. She kept asking me why I was staring at her and really all I was doing was making sure she wouldn’t drop her iced coffee. This while smiling from ear to ear. She hasn’t been this free and easy going with me for almost a whole year. I told her about how hard they’ve been working me lately and how tired I am when we get off. Then she made fun of my age and said I must be getting old. But I corrected her and told her that kind of talk isn’t allowed because I’m not getting old. I’m just working way too hard lately. Like she totally forgot the pause she put on me for the last year. With all its awkward silences and snooty pass-bys when she walked my way. Or even the awkward times she’d stare at me and I would ignore it. I’ve gone out of my way to not validate her, but she’s sucking me back in. I can feel it. It’s like a part of me knew the honeymoon phase with her and Dude was over but I’ll never ask. Because I really don’t care. Yet there I was orbiting again later that night, for just a second or two because I capture her attention and then she wants to talk. And then I love it because she never shuts up. Its like we’re right back to where we were before I opened my big dumb mouth. Then my brain turns to mush because I still like her and think she’s cute. Is this her end game? Can it really be all about just needing my validation? This seems to be a hot topic when it comes to Women needing men’s or anyones attention these days. I know she still has her bf. But something must not be there now.
MJ,
“It’s too bad I can’t post LOs pages. All her stuff is public so anyone can access it. I’d love to hear your opinions. ”
She sounds thirsty. A woman with a bunch of sexy pics on IG is someone who needs a lot of validation.
“Perhaps then you might understand better a little of that limerent madness that persists on my end. ”
No, I wouldn’t. I’m not as shallow as you are about appearance. 🙂 And I can’t understand finding someone that much younger appealing. Not in any serious way.
“Mainly it was just me finding her incredibly beyond attractive and feeling she was so out of my league.”
She’s just attractive. So what? There are many attractive women out there.
“Having the fantasy of what could be has always been important to keep at the forefront.”
If you honestly think she would never have been interested, there’s nothing that could have been.
That’s how I’ve been looking at my most recent LE … it’s a total dead end. There’s nothing for me there. Drilling that into my head on a daily basis has helped. Not completely, but it’s better.
“I started thinking perhaps I was the type of Father she’d want to have if things could be better between them. ”
Yes, but presenting yourself as being the father she wanted would have negated you as being the lover she wanted.
“Could it really be about still needing my validation? Is that all it takes for some Women? ”
Yes. We’ve talked about this before. MANY times. She probably likes you and enjoys your company and enjoys the attention. But when you asked her out, she didn’t follow through. That’s all you need to know. That’s how you’ll know if a woman is interested. I cannot stress this enough.
” I kinda hope it bruised her ego. Thats what I wanted.”
Doesn’t mean she’s interested. When my guy friend who’d disclosed started talking about other women, I didn’t like it. But that didn’t mean I had changed my mind and wanted to date him.
“That Casey Zander Dude you hate talks a lot about Women’s egos in his videos and this topic comes up often. (That and satisfying hypergamy) ”
STOP watching him. There are currents of misogyny. Just using the word hypergamy. Ugh.
“Women aren’t attracted to certain Men until those Men are attracted to other Women because there obviously must be some value they (the men) have, that they in turn want for themselves.”
Well, yes. Makes sense to me. A woman doesn’t want to think you’re with her because you couldn’t do better. She wants to think you have some options and picked her. Also … and there’s some truth to this … if you don’t have the ability to walk way, she won’t want to have sex with you. I just watched a video yesterday from that dating coach for men I recommended to you. TheSingleGuy. The video is “When to walk away from a girl.”
But you have to stop reading the tea leaves with LF. That’s a dead end.
You’re not going to exhibit certain behaviors and change her mind. I’m talking about how to act with new babes. 🙂
“No, I wouldn’t. I’m not as shallow as you are about appearance. 🙂”
Marcia
You’re probably right about that. At this point, it doesn’t take much for me to consider even an average looking Woman having potential. However super hotties or “10s” (10++ in LOs case) are just really nice ideas. Hopefully for more than just coffee too but I will probably never know.
“And I can’t understand finding someone that much younger appealing. Not in any serious way.”
Thats because its usually different for Women. For me it’s more about staying young when all I ever feel like is I’m completely aging out. Time is against us Dear. I’m not getting any younger but I’m sure getting more crotchety. Nothing seems to be going in my favor but I’m really not trying to give up just yet.
“She’s just attractive. So what? There are many attractive women out there.”
True. Very true. But this was LO. You know how it felt when the glimmer hit. They take on a whole new level of attractive-ness. Then everything else that comes with a LE. True it doesn’t matter much since I was the deer in headlights around her. I feel like I’ve made some progress since those days. Trying to chat up who I can when the mood hits.
“If you honestly think she would never have been interested, there’s nothing that could have been.
That’s how I’ve been looking at my most recent LE … it’s a total dead end.”
It’s not that I thought she wouldn’t ever be interested. I thought it was possible for a brief second. Then it wasn’t. I don’t need to go into all the detail again. I’m trying to see it for the huge waste of time it was. However that still doesn’t seem to put the kibosh on the whole idea of her. I never wanted anyone like I did her. Which is why if I keep going on here, I’ll probably start tearing up again. 🥲😭
“Yes, but presenting yourself as being the father she wanted would have negated you as being the lover she wanted.”
True that. I suppose I’ve always wanted the best of both worlds with her. Finally be like the Father she never had, and then get to love her better than any guy she’s ever been with. Let me have my fantasy. 🙂
“But when you asked her out, she didn’t follow through. That’s all you need to know. That’s how you’ll know if a woman is interested. I cannot stress this enough.”
Why is it though it sometimes can feel like she would be so close to wanting to do something? Like I know I got my answer. I know its moot at this point, but the camaraderie between us just feels right. Even after hardly speaking to her for the last year. I love how we get along. Must be that male energy I bring to the table and like you said, the attention too.
“STOP watching him. There are currents of misogyny. Just using the word hypergamy. Ugh.”
Currents of misogyny.. I like that. Although I never really took it like that. There’s a lot of what he says doesn’t even apply to my current situations. But if it pertains to what a Woman might be reacting about, my ears perk up. Especially if they are going against my so called good intent. Which is really all I try to be about nowadays.
“I just watched a video yesterday from that dating coach for men I recommended to you. TheSingleGuy. The video is “When to walk away from a girl.””
I’ve seen this guy. I’ll check it out and give it a listen at work later. Always looking for good material to keep my brain occupied while I’m working way too hard for my 55 years. 😆
MJ,
“You’re probably right about that. At this point, it doesn’t take much for me to consider even an average looking Woman having potential. However super hotties or “10s” (10++ in LOs case) are just really nice ideas. Hopefully for more than just coffee too but I will probably never know.”
This statement horrifies me. If that’s how a man sees me — as average, as a step down from who he really wants but can’t get — he can move along. I’m not interested. I mean that with every fiber of my being. I’d rather have no attention that half-hearted attention.
“Thats because its usually different for Women. ”
You can keep telling yourself that. 🙂 There are plenty of women just as shallow about male appearance as some men are about female appearance. And there are plenty of women our age who want to date younger men.
“For me it’s more about staying young when all I ever feel like is I’m completely aging out.”
Hanging out with someone younger doesn’t change your age.
“It’s not that I thought she wouldn’t ever be interested. I thought it was possible for a brief second. Then it wasn’t. I don’t need to go into all the detail again. ”
And I can’t go over the details of any of these women anymore. Sorry. I’m not trying to be flippant. But they’re all off the table. They were never on the table.
Bear with me with this story … So years ago, this guy at work asked me out. I was surprised. It seemed to come out of nowhere and I wasn’t prepared. We hadn’t talked that much. And I did find him attractive. I wanted to go but I didn’t want to go. There was something about him I didn’t trust (he seemed like a blabber), and he wasn’t so appealing to me that I was going to something stupid. 🙂 I didn’t say no but I didn’t say yes. Frankly, I mistakenly thought he would ask again at some point. And when he didn’t, I told the story to a guy friend. And he said something like, “Well, no, he thought you were blowing him off.” I think this guy picked up on my ambivalence. Not only did he not ask again but he didn’t chat me up. Ever again. He’d see me and say hello but that was it. And that’s what you need to be doing. He removed his energy and attention because there was no point. He didn’t try to read the tea leaves; he just moved on.
So watch some of those videos I mentioned. You’d be surprised how much dating advice is just painfully obvious common sense. I watch the videos and can’t believe I actually need someone to explain things to me, but I do.
If you truly want someone to go to coffee with, you have to start aiming your attention and energy at someone who is interested and available. I would tell that to anyone. Yes, even myself. 🙂
“I’m trying to see it for the huge waste of time it was. ”
It is. A huge waste of energy and time and emotion.
“Finally be like the Father she never had, and then get to love her better than any guy she’s ever been with. Let me have my fantasy. ”
I don’t know her and how she thinks, but any guy who tried to be like a father would automatically be put in the friend zone, if he wasn’t there already.
“Why is it though it sometimes can feel like she would be so close to wanting to do something?”
I don’t know how else to say this — you were both single at the same time and she chose someone else.
“But if it pertains to what a Woman might be reacting about, my ears perk up. ”
Why do you keep capitalizing the “w” in “woman” or “women”? It’s not a proper noun? 🙂
“This statement horrifies me. If that’s how a man sees me — as average, as a step down from who he really wants but can’t get — he can move along.”
Marcia
I think you’ve misinterpreted my point.
As the old saying goes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If I as a guy am looking at a Woman and seeing her as average, it doesn’t mean that I’m going to start chatting her up, possibly date her and then wish I could always do better. True I hold LO in pretty high regard but that doesn’t mean all other Women in my book are yesterdays news. My last SO, by probably a majority of guys would most likely rate her average looking at best. Had I never started actually speaking to her, or get to know her, she’d have probably remained just another average looking girl in the office. But my point is I had to see something in her to want to make it work. This is key. She had a very kind personality, a beautiful smile, a cute little walk and mainly a good heart. Eventually I fell hard for her. Like she was adorable in every way to ME and no other Woman mattered or was getting in my way. SHE was my only goal.
So I agree if a guy sees you as average and thinks he can always do better, of course you’re moving on. For your sake I hope that never happens. But also don’t think that if you see yourself as only average, that every man will see you as only average. Beauty is subjective.
Even Sabrina gets plenty of hate. Her comments sections are loaded with guys who find her butt-a$$ ugly. I don’t really know whats wrong with them, but she must not be their type. So that means there are guys that would probably find LO unattractive as well. Which of course would qualify them as committing a cardinal sin, worthy of imprisonment.😆
“Why do you keep capitalizing the “w” in “woman” or “women”? It’s not a proper noun? 🙂”
Btw, when did you become the grammar troll around here? Why are you correcting my W? Do you think my dumba$$ knows or remembers anything about whats proper or improper? When have I ever been proper about anything? 😆
Fyi. It’s the spell-check correcting my W. I’m just too lazy to re-correct it to change it. 🫡
MJ,
“My last SO, by probably a majority of guys would most likely rate her average looking at best. Had I never started actually speaking to her, or get to know her, she’d have probably remained just another average looking girl in the office. ”
Yes, but you’re saying she was average, objectively, and then you got to know her and got attracted. You have never spoken to your LO. So are you telling me that objectively, to the outside world, she would be considered average? Because I would find that a little hard to believe, given how you’ve written about beauty.
LO-lite and my last big LO … objectively … a little above average. Kinda cute. But I was attracted to them at first sight. I don’t know why. With my LO, there was a guy, objectively, much hotter at my job. He was a 10. Could have been a model. He looked like he fell off the cover of GQ. And before you ask, yes, he was young. He had everything — tall, handsome, great body. But I wasn’t particularly attracted to him although I definitely noticed him and didn’t mind looking at him. He would pose for the women. I’m not making this up. Lean up against a wall, the first few buttons of his shirt undone. He knew we were watching him. I got a kick out of it. He was objectifying himself almost like a woman would. But he didn’t get the juices flowing like LO lite and my last LO.
That’s how I would want someone to feel about me. That I got the juices flowing. At first sight.
“But also don’t think that if you see yourself as only average, that every man will see you as only average.”
C’mon, dude. That sounds like B.S. (See how I capitalized that? :))
“Beauty is subjective.”
I don’t know if I agree with that. They’ve done studies. At the start of a class. Men and women will pretty much agree who is objectively attractive. Now, when researchers come back later, the number of people considered attractive has expanded because people have gotten to know each other. But that’s different. They call it … familiarity breeds attempt.
“Even Sabrina gets plenty of hate. Her comments sections are loaded with guys who find her butt-a$$ ugly.”
That’s ridiculous. Objectively, she’s an attractive woman. She might not be their specific type, but to say she doesn’t meet basic beauty standards isn’t true.
“Btw, when did you become the grammar troll around here? Why are you correcting my W? ”
Because it’s basic grammar. You learn it in 3rd grade. 🙂
I see how you ignored most of my previous post. I think as limerents we spend too much time feeling the feelz and overly focusing on how we feel about our LOs. But SECONDARY to our feelings must be … that they are interested in us and they intend to act on it. If you don’t have that, you don’t anything, and you’ll be spinning your wheels, trapped in these loops of fixation over women who are not on your playing field. I’m telling myself the same thing. This isn’t an indictment of you.
“I don’t know her and how she thinks, but any guy who tried to be like a father would automatically be put in the friend zone, if he wasn’t there already.”
Most all men look for their mother in the women they are interested or attracted to. Just not all us men are Norman Bates.
Adam,
“Most all men look for their mother in the women they are interested or attracted to.”
I mean, women often subconsciously recreate the dynamic they had with their fathers with their romantic partners. It’s probably the same for men and their mothers.
Ultimately, I don’t that’s necessarily bad unless the childhood, parental dynamic was unhealthy and said woman or man is picking bad partners as an adult.
That being said, I want a partner. Not a parent. And I don’t want to be a parent for a man. A big turn off.
“Yes, but you’re saying she was average, objectively, and then you got to know her and got attracted. You have never spoken to your LO. So are you telling me that objectively, to the outside world, she would be considered average? Because I would find that a little hard to believe, given how you’ve written about beauty.”
Marcia
I feel like you’re looking at things too much from the worldly perspective. A lot of people happen to just blend in with the rest of us. It isn’t until we take time to look beyond that, to see what we could have easily passed up. The only reason last SO ever got noticed by me, was because of her kindness to me one day. Which immediately attracted me and got her on my radar. I started noticing the little things about her, her outfits, the way she carried herself and any opinion anyone else had of her did not matter. Conventionally and objectively yes, she was only pretty mid, but if I look back at it from a limerent mindset (which I was not then) I would say that was when glimmer would be setting in. I didn’t care what anyone thought. She was perfect.
With LO, she takes very good care of herself and wants to always look good. This is evident by her style of dress and how she carries herself. What I see is a perfect combination of everything. Like I still can’t explain fully how beautiful looking I find her. Like no other Woman ever in this universe has affected me like she has. I don’t think that means that every guy is going to see what I see. To give you an example, my Son thinks she’s only average at best, so right there thats subjective beauty. (Although my Son’s taste in Women is completely different from mine anyway, but thats another story.)
“C’mon, dude. That sounds like B.S. (See how I capitalized that? :))”
Look I can’t see the types of Dudes you are attracting. You can probably easily gauge the ones that are more into you by what they do and how they behave. I work with plenty of average looking Women every day. Some of them stick out to me more than others. Some are even just kinda downright nasty looking, but in a weird f—ed up way also have a degree of cute/or hotness about them that I can’t put a finger on either. Doesn’t mean I’m gonna go for it. It just means they’re not ugly or even unattractive. Just more like, probably not my type. What I feel about you or anybody is what I feel. What others feel or think of you is their opinion. It’s like what they taught me when I first got into management 30 years ago. You will never make everyone happy. No matter how hard you try.
The same applies for people’s opinions of you and/or your looks.
“I don’t know if I agree with that. They’ve done studies. At the start of a class. Men and women will pretty much agree who is objectively attractive. Now, when researchers come back later, the number of people considered attractive has expanded because people have gotten to know each other. But that’s different. They call it … familiarity breeds attempt.”
Well of course it does because people begin to see what’s behind those eyes and in those minds. I guess what I don’t get is all the emphasis you’re putting on the “objectively attractive” part. What looks good to me, may not look so good to the next guy. There have to be men where you work, where you see a Dude you like and your Lady Colleague sees nothing. Who cares about objectively attractive? What works for you may not work for everyone.
“That’s ridiculous. Objectively, she’s an attractive woman. She might not be their specific type, but to say she doesn’t meet basic beauty standards isn’t true.”
Thats just YOUR opinion of what they may be thinking. You find her objectively attractive but some Women may not infact agree with you about that. The world for whatever reason, finds Kim Kardashian attractive but I don’t see it. She’s average at best in my book. If she’s objectively attractive, so be it. Anything she does will most likely never impress me. The same could be said for Miley Cyrus. Even J. Lo (A freakin Latina, my weakness) does absolutely nothing for me. I don’t care how objectively attractive she may be. Or what Men or the world view her as. I’m not seeing it. So if some Men don’t see Sabrina as a cute sex kitten, thats on them. Our opinions are what they are. Even if you looked exactly the way you want to look, objectively attractive or not, you would still get shunned by some men in this world.
“Because it’s basic grammar. You learn it in 3rd grade. 🙂”
I was sick that day.. 😆
“I see how you ignored most of my previous post.”
I didn’t ignore it. I was just tired and didn’t want to start missing words on a reply or ramble on incoherently.
What you’ve said makes sense. I did want to know what LO was thinking but I kinda figured it out with her body language. I guess in a limerent mindset, its harder to just accept. Because I wanted her to be feeling something. Which is probably why it still makes me sad to this day.
Its not like that at all with NG. Infact I took from some of what you mentioned above and basically just shut her off one day. Because what is the point if her choice was already made? I still talk to her. Even told her why I had to back away. She said she understood. Told her its about respecting her space. That even if her and Dude aren’t serious, I still don’t need to be meddling or getting in the way. She made the call. I thought it was a lousy one, but I guess I can’t change her mind. So I guess that also means I’m off to Dunkin again to get another single cup of coffee, instead of two..
Cheers.. ☕️
MJ,
“A lot of people happen to just blend in with the rest of us.”
Yeah, but do you want to blend in? Who wants that?
“Who cares about objectively attractive? What works for you may not work for everyone.”
No. That’s hooey. Ten years ago or so, the “it” girl was Megan Fox. Or Scarlett Johansson. If you asked a good number of guys what celebrity women they liked, those two would have been named. Objectively, those are good-looking women. Is every guy going to go berserk over them? No. Of course not. But an awful lot would have. Even right now at their antiquated ages of 39 and 41. 🙂 It’s the same for women. There are men who a good number of women are going to look at and think: He’s attractive. Even if he wasn’t their exact type and there were other guys who revved them up more. That model-like guy I used to work with … I had eyes. I could see he was conventionally handsome. There was another guy who a lot of the female employees talked about. General consensus was that he was hot.
“You find her objectively attractive but some Women may not in fact agree with you about that. ”
Well, that gets into the whole “male pretty” versus “female pretty.” As a general rule, “male pretty” is sexier, more bombshell. “Female pretty” is fashionable and less flashy. A lot of women may be put off by Sabrina, who is obviously working the bombshell angle.
“Even if you looked exactly the way you want to look, objectively attractive or not, you would still get shunned by some men in this world.”
Yes, that’s true. But someone who is conventionally attractive will have a better shot at others finding them attractive. It’s just reality.
Now, to be very clear … attractiveness can get someone in the door; it’s doesn’t keep them in the room.
But you go on and on about female beauty, so I (perhaps wrongly) assumed you were only talking about the most attractive women by general standards. And women who were fairly young.
“Its not like that at all with NG. In fact I took from some of what you mentioned above and basically just shut her off one day. Because what is the point if her choice was already made? I still talk to her. Even told her why I had to back away. She said she understood. Told her its about respecting her space. ”
NO! It’s about RESPECTING YOURSELF! That’s why I told you the story about that guy at work. And from
the rumors I heard … he did well with women. He didn’t wait around for me. He didn’t hover after my bullsh*t response. He moved on.
“The only reason last SO ever got noticed by me, was because of her kindness to me one day. Which immediately attracted me and got her on my radar.”
MJ,
This is exactly how it was with my LO. She is moderately attractive (by the objective standards you’re discussing) but by no means a 10/10 – attractive in a way I’d always slightly appreciated but not been blown away by.
She ramped up the kindness and interest in me (at a time she knew I needed it) and suddenly my attraction went next level – to the limerent level.
A moderately attractive woman can cause the glimmer in men like that, and then suddenly like you say, nothing else matters.
I won’t say she ‘blinded me’ with kindness … as a certain level of attraction has to be there before it. Some women could be the kindest in the world to me and it wouldn’t spark attraction.
Nice to hear from you LaR.
I agree with everything you mention. Once you see that good side of them, its a real turn-on. For me I also see the kindness as a window to how easily I could be let down, should it happen. Sometimes if they’re really nice I think even if they reject me, they won’t get too evil about it.
Just more self talk, I should probably steer clear of too. That infact hasn’t always been the case.
Ah, yes, the pupil width! How are you supposed to even see the pupil width without peering into your LO’s eyes all weirdly?
Another good way to tell if an LO is into you, is if they come after YOU!
Excellent article!
I was in a terrible state with my LO. All the signs showed that he was attracted to me and wanted to go on dates with me. I mean, asking me to come over and watch a movie with him at is house is pretty straightforward right. He was an ex lover of more than a decade ago after all. When we met again there was this intense glimmer moment. But I was in a relationship at the time that was in a crisis and we briefly broke up so as flattered as I felt by the glimmer situation I held back. We did meet up on a couple of occasions. But I was so anxious that pursuing this connection further would totally wreck my life. But contact remained so these were the perfect conditions for my first ever LE. I did not know what was going on. After three months I had enough of the uncertainty and decided to call him and tell him directly that I could not meet him or continue the contact because I didn’t know where I was heading, what to do, what to choose. I was so confused. It was either to follow my ‘desires’/ ‘freedom’ or get back with my SO and seriously work on things to fix our relationship. In my head it was either/or because I was stuck in a loop. So I directly but still hesitantly asked LO about his intentions of inviting me over and he immediately reacted that he had ‘no intentions at all.’ He just invited me over out of ‘warmth’ and because he thought I might feel like coming over. But ‘if I didn’t feel like it that’s no problem at all.’ Then he also needed to mention the ‘fact that in his experience, when couples get back together after a break they usually end up separating again because they are facing the same issues’. Now why would you say that to someone who is in a crisis she just expressed so vulnerably? So the uncertainty went on and on. Even though I had made the decision to get back with SO(after this phonecall it was obvious), the uncertainty about his true feelings kept me stuck for so long. We started, or continued acting as ‘friends’ after this. Flaky contact kept going on because neither of us could make the decision to go NC. It hurt me too much to let go and I guess he still was fishing for a chance to meet again or stay in touch. Now things with SO worked out pretty well and I wouldn’t want to trade him for anyone. But it is completely insane to me that this kind of thing can have such a lasting imprint. Fast forward 2 years later I feel better now. No contact for over a year, but he still pops up in my head as an ongoing pattern. Not the intense emotions thank god, put the patterns remain. Like today I imagined him having moved on and being with someone else and there is no way of knowing for me and I suddenly felt hurt. It’s just the locked potential that had nowhere to go or the lingering hope that he might have felt something for me after all. Crazy. What am I doing wrong???
I don’t think you’re doing anything wrong. You had to go NC.
And I’m not convinced that, even if your SO had not been in the picture, your LO could have shown up in your life in any meaningful way. That’s always the fantasy: that the barriers are keeping us from our LOs. Remove the barriers and we’d get the LOs. But in actuality, it’s often the LOs who are also a barrier.
You tried to be honest with him, and he deflected and confused you more. Everyone knows “come over and watch a movie” is code for a hook up. He couldn’t even admit it. And then he threw in some weird comment about things not working out if you got back together with your SO, which of course made you wonder if he didn’t want you to reunite with your SO.
If you want to be with someone who can show up, you made the right decision. I think your LO would have driven you crazy with all his ambiguity. Was it like this when you were together years ago?
I’m so embarassed. Of course it was a hook up thing and I knew it. In my mind at the time it was supposed to be just a temporary fling which involuntarily led to this whole limerence episode. I was so overwhelmed during that time that my need to feel chosen overruled my rational thinking. I never knew this sort of obsession was even possible, especially with him!
We dated a year prior to my relationship with SO. Here’s the weird thing: he told me at that time that he had feelings for me and it took me by surprise. I did not immediately reciprocate because it felt too rushed, we hardly even knew eachother. I told him I felt nothing! However we kept seeing eachother, I started to like him more but after some time he stopped reaching out, I got pissed and I blocked him. Silly story..I was young, it was just something that had long passed until he popped up in my life again and there you go.
Kat and Marcia,
„And then he threw in some weird comment about things not working out if you got back together with your SO, which of course made you wonder if he didn’t want you to reunite with your SO.“
I wonder if he could have not meant Kat and SO, but Kat and himself? Would that be a possibility?
No no, he meant specifically me and SO. In his opinion this chapter was definitely over and I should focus on myself now. He had been chasing me for months before this phonecall. He even asked if he could keep texting me to wich I mumbled okayyy…and then he continued to do so…
Kat,
“He had been chasing me for months before this phone call.”
Yes, but the moment had arrived … you kind of pressed him for what was happening between you. (I’m not saying that was a bad thing to do. Actually, it was probably good, gave you a least some semblance of clarity.) And he … completely backpedaled. Threw up the plausible deniability shield. Pretended the invitation was to come over for “warmth.” (I have to be honest: Hearing this kind of b.s. would have ticked me off.) And this is during a time when you weren’t with your SO, right? If ever there was a time for your LO to make a definitive move and make it clear he was serious, there was the time to do it.
I just wouldn’t frame it in your mind as picking your SO over your LO. But rather picking your SO and shutting the door on someone who was playing hot and cold and possibly would have continued to do so.
Hi Kat,
„Here’s the weird thing: he told me at that time that he had feelings for me and it took me by surprise. I did not immediately reciprocate because it felt too rushed, we hardly even knew eachother. I told him I felt nothing! However we kept seeing eachother, I started to like him more but after some time“etc
„I always thought his ambiguity was caused by my holding back but still reinforcing by keeping in touch.“
It seems to me that you both were dealing out ambiguity at certain times, so I wouldn’t necessarily vilify him for not being outright clear when you asked him about his intentions (without clearly stating your intentions, mind.) I think it’s quite understandable from his side, or as understandable as your own ambiguity.
Still, you seem to see it quite clearly:
„ he would have always remained to act that way because he had always been that way“
It might feel like a missed opportunity, but it wasn’t.
Most likely there would only have been a bit of back and forth between people who both wouldn’t fully commit? Because it’s not only him who wouldn’t openly declare love or intentions, you yourself were not sure about the whole thing, right?
It’s maybe only in hindsight that it turned into something good you missed?
Mila,
The first time was over a decade ago. Yes maybe I was ambiguous about my feelings back then but as a young woman there are many odd guys who want something from you so I think it’s only natural to hold back a little (we only knew eachother for a week or so when he ‘expressed his feelings’ to me) anyway it was when I started to open up to him a bit more that he completely withdrew. I always thought it was because he just came out of a relationship and was still recovering from that.
Well, second time around it was me who just came out of a relationship so mentally I was really not prepared for this. Plus, I didn’t mention but during that phonecall I actually was brutally honest with him and told him that I did have feelings for him but didn’t know what to do with the situation between me and my ex (SO). So then he tried to nudge me in a different direction..for he was clearly unhappy about me talking about getting back with my ex.
You are right, due to our circumstances we were both ambiguous both the times we met. But taking the vilifying route kinda helped me because if I try to be too understanding of him, which I tend to do quite a lot, I’m afraid I will love and ache for him for ever and ever.
Hi Kat,
„ But taking the vilifying route kinda helped me because if I try to be too understanding of him, which I tend to do quite a lot, I’m afraid I will love and ache for him for ever and ever.“
I can absolutely understand that point. I experienced myself that there are different spins one can put on LO‘s personality and behavior (forgive me if my English is bad, not a native speaker), and that one can never really know which is the „right“ one (if there is a right one at all), so it‘s best to choose the spin that helps yourself most. Also, understanding doesn’t mean accepting.
While I said that him being ambiguous is understandable, it‘s still not very courageous, honest or attractive behavior.
Me with my XLO, I went down the path to say , I understand certain behaviors, I see that he can’t help them or where they stem from, but while I understand, I simultaneously say that that‘s still nothing I want to put up with myself.
It‘s understandable he behaves like that but that still makes him a person I better keep at a distance, because it‘s not good for me to be too involved with this kind of person or behavior, and I have to take care of myself first.
Your LO doesn’t sound like someone who would sweep you from your feet and unconditionally be there for you, stand by you etc., and isn’t that something we limerents hope for, some real love of this LO coming our way? Is he even capable of being the loving person you would like him to be?
If you would suddenly decide to be with him, he would go on dithering and you would have a hell of a time, that’s my guess.
So maybe better put Marcia’s merciless spin on his personality and decide that this episode must be over? ( I know, easier said than done..)
Marcia,
I always thought his ambiguity was caused by my holding back but still reinforcing by keeping in touch. His reaction to my phonecall was indeed pretty lame but I was so nervous and felt so vulnerable back then that it just confused me more. I knew he wasn’t completely honest. Instead of putting me off it just reinforced this uncertainty and me trying to figure out his real feelings after all.
But thanks for pointing that out though. Even if things didnt work out between me and SO he would have always remained to act that way because he had always been that way.
So this video came up in my YouTube feed last night. I’d seen it before but it’s been a number of months and I’d forgotten about the … um … wallop of its title. “If They Wanted to Be With You, You’d Know — The Trap of Limerence” (by You Reclaimed Project).
I think that pretty much sums it up. (I wish I had known some of this stuff years ago. Would have saved myself so much time and energy. :)) The other dating/relationship motto I live by is: Someone who is really interested won’t put themselves in a position to lose you. And ambiguous behavior and/or mixed signals fit into this because he runs the risk of you getting frustrated and walking away.
To all,
Here’s a great article I ran across that’s highly relevant to choosing a romantic partner. The most relevant part starts almost midway through the article.
https://www.nytimes.com/2026/05/12/opinion/decision-making-herbert-simon.html?unlocked_article_code=1.iFA.Pag6.AYnoXiDRiomB&smid=url-share
Using Simon’s criteria, it seems that I made the right choice regarding my SO!
That’s a really interesting article, thanks CatCyclist!
I am a born satisficer.
I imagine that this approach is possible to do, even if you have been searching past his ‘cut off’ point:
“Paulos was illustrating a well-known result in probability, which shows that this rule gives you the best chance of ending up with the best partner in the whole sequence. Keep pushing past that point, and you’re more likely to end up with a worse match or no one at all. The core insight — that the path to the best outcome runs directly through the willingness to stop searching long before you’ve exhausted the options — extends far beyond dating”
The comments section on the article are also thought-provoking.
🐝 🧙,
My COO culture trained the majority people over there satisfies. Those who constantly choose, in everything/every matter, are considered highly foolish.
It’s said/thought in the East, “a lot of problems and pains in the West come from that people have too many choice and constantly compete/compare, rarely/never content with “enough is enough” or “good enough”.
I’m still using my Rosy-colored iPhone 7 Plus; it severs all my needs. 😊 I hate unnecessary spending.
Correction: “satisfiers”
Hello Dear Snow,
About your rosy phone – I know the one you mean and I love it!
I also have an ancient phone and am quite proud of myself. I think this is called “reverse snobbery” 😆
My Dear 🐝 🧙 🐔,
My rosy-grown iPhone still looks “blooming”, because I always use(d) a good case when I go out; and changed its battery once in COO back in 2024 summer. I intend to use it until it can no longer function (some non-essential apps currently can’t run on it, due to more advanced ioS required).
“Reverse Snobbery”? I like the term. I still wear a thick brick-colored winter coat from 14 yrs and a bright-red wool jacket from 24, both given by Dad and are never out of style but unique!
My highly sophisticated, good-looking cardiologist (looking in her early 40s with 5 children), “complained/vented”, 2 hours, ago about the current American UNHEALTHY culture/lifestyle, in which people are lazy (little movement with tons of junk /prepared food), quick to reach pills/shrinks, loaded with chronic diseases (obesity, diabetes, heart problems and increasing mortality in young people), blame on others/the culture, and dislike her whenever she professionally suggested healthy lifestyle to her patients… we always had a good chat during a few minutes of examine me — I know about her 12 yrs son’s particular diet, two kids’ transferred school…etc. 😊
How are you doing lately, my LwL 🐓?
We are definitely 🐣 & 🐔 “snobbery”! 🫂
Dear Snow,
“We are definitely 🐣 & 🐔 “snobbery”! ”
Ha ha, yes. I am sentimental and also a bit odd about objects – that could just be using the same cup, chair, bag, and refusing to get a new one, or it could be precious mementos like your coat. Its so great that you get to use the coat and not just look at it (do you find that you get blind to objects that you are not actually using?). That must be such a nice way to remember your Dad. You will have it forever!
How are you doing lately, my LwL 🐓?
Oh, I am doing good! Very busy. But one interesting development with my xLO is that we had a call recently, it was the first one ever with just the two of us on the call. We work together (remotely) as you know. Although it was scheduled well in advance, I almost forgot all about it until the day itself. That never would have happened me on a call with him in the past. So Its just more proof that I must be doing better.
Actually, on the call I was all business and he actually said a few flirty things! Cheeky monkey. But I didnt react.
How about you, Snow? How are you doing – How is work?
I send you a 🫂
🐔🔮✨️🪄
❄️
💐🌱👁☎️!
🚜
👁️ 🔎 ➡️ 🏵️🌱🔴📱
@*🌸*🌱🍅*🔴*📲
🚜😳🙊🤦♂️
❄️🔥🐦🚀🪐
🐝 🧙♀️ 🐔,
“Ha ha, yes. I am sentimental and also a bit odd about objects – that could just be using the same cup, chair, bag, and refusing to get a new one, or it could be precious mementos like your coat. “
Yeah, the objects in my household are counted with the measure word “decade”. Any concrete objects, small or shabby, can carry meanings, as long as our mind associate them with events and people of the time when we acquired and then used them. Since young, I was sentimental with objects, especially those I created (photo shots) or hand made (collages). If given by others, I must have used them for an extended time with some fond memories.
Due to our sensory, I found sentiments of physical objects last longer and imprinted deeper than abstract “objects”, ie. words/images in the head (if not being written down or painted out). I can touch my coat/jacket but can’t sense/grasp flickering, fluid images or fleeting words in my head unless I could record the latter in a timely fashion.
“(do you find that you get blind to objects that you are not actually using?)”
I have little unused objects because my space is very limited; I keep throwing out meaningless or outdated objects and using functional, meaningful and eye-pleasing stuff. I manage my online storage in the same principle: personal stuff, both negative and positive, are kept for good if they have made “loud strikes” in my head/heart.
“Oh, I am doing good! Very busy. “
Great! I somehow sensed you’re doing well, although you rarely posted recently.
“But one interesting development with my xLO is that we had a call recently, it was the first one ever with just the two of us on the call. We work together (remotely) as you know. Although it was scheduled well in advance, I almost forgot all about it until the day itself. That never would have happened me on a call with him in the past. So Its just more proof that I must be doing better.”
That’s an unbelievable and a milestone “forgetfulness” — the clear evidence that you are indeed out of the open door of “LE cage” — 🐓👣🚪❗️ (I don’t think I could ever be in that “forgetful” stage, although I might feel very indifferent as now.)
“Actually, on the call I was all business and he actually said a few flirty things! Cheeky monkey. But I didnt react.”
Good for you! 👏 Why do you think he flirted? because he wanted to tease/please you or he just felt “secure” enough to “seduce” you a little more whenever he gets a chance? He knows your LE affection for him (without your verbal disclosure), right?
I think you’d be doing more than fine when f2f see him soon. With so much LwL’s awareness, I think we all have obtained mental tools to dial down/kill that LE butterflies should we see our XLO again. (Thank God, no possibility for me!)
“How about you, Snow? How are you doing – How is work?”
I’m doing quite well physically, mentally and emotionally despite stress, unknowns still exist (the same as everyone else); Stoic practices really help me at daily basis while it is gradually becoming a new mental habit. But I try to keep my curious and adventurous streaks alive; otherwise, life would become really boring…
My cardiologist thinks I’m obsessed with my workouts (2~3 hours daily), but my body feels like sleep-walking and aching if I skip them the first thing after I get out of the bed. They’ve improved my moods, sleeping quality, increased my muscles tones and energy level.
At work, I’m finishing up the semester next Wednesday with the final and then grading. More than a half of my class wants to continue a higher level of the subject, so the department added a new course for me in the Fall. What can be more exciting to see students want to be “brainwashed” more by the same teacher — just joking⁉️ 🤭
In the past, I was always into poetry and classical novels, and was totally ignorant of pop music/songs, which ET lectured once saying that the pop culture, including sport events, is a new form of modern “religion” to younger generations, which has more power than traditional church-going — just look at the shouting or crazy expressions/behaviors in those pop concerts and sport matches on the screen❗️
Since the early April, I’ve been “self-learning” about pop music and quickly complied a list of over 300~350 songs (with a very knowledgeable recommendation in the field). Obviously, musical notes stimulate/pluck our senses/nerves more than quiet poetic words, even read aloud. I’ve tried to feel different emotional impact between poetic and lyric words (simpler but repeated again and again with musical notes).
I’ve also tried to imagine how those pop songs (with various genres) have shaped or influenced the listeners’ mind and heart if they grew up with them (I certainly did not). Now I begin to understand why pop songs have powerfully promoted/strengthened Romanticism of the modern West with a lot of heady stuff (still not sure what those singers/expressionists/singer-songwriters do after their great expressive words).
I couldn’t help feel that about 80% is crush/unrequited love/LE-driven, 90% the opposite of Stoic, and 20% is touchingly, genuinely 💗 , wringing the listener’s mind/heart…. Either way, they’re very creative! If I grew up in this side of the world, with my old traumas/Longings, I’d probably become a LE addict, never get out of the “LE cage”. 😊 — my heart hates LE kind of flutters, like PVC.
🐝 🧙 🐔, that’s where your 🐣 has been, still wishing each day has 36 hours and she can cuddle under your 🪽 🐔 🪽 from time to time… 🫂
Dear Snow,
No rush to reply, I know that you were running off to work. But I wanted to say that I am impressed by your daily workouts, wow! I know some people who really need to move to feel well. I wish I was like this! I would say that I’m the opposite.
Well, new resolution, I will try to channel your approach.
Tonight I am having a small party and there will be cocktails. Very little moving, apart from maybe a boogie to Spotify.
About this:
“❗️ (I don’t think I could ever be in that “forgetful” stage, although I might feel very indifferent as now.)”
Really? I am surprised, somehow I thought your xLO (the big one from your last job) was mostly forgotten now? Or maybe you choose to remember aspects of what you learned from it?
Finally, you asked a question that I am puzzling on myself:
“Good for you! 👏 Why do you think he flirted? because he wanted to tease/please you or he just felt “secure” enough to “seduce” you a little more whenever he gets a chance? He knows your LE affection for him (without your verbal disclosure), right?”
Yes. I think you might be right. My guess is that xLO is a serial limerent himself. I think he might even have lost his mind a bit at the same time as I did. But I could be wrong. We’re both partnered and miles apart, so who knows.
I do think he is well over it and possibly being a bit naughty now. Well, he better be careful!
Gosh. People are strange.
I am glad to hear that your work situation continues to work out. You are obviously good at what you do 😇
Hugs,
Bx
Dear 🐝 🧙 🐔,
“But I wanted to say that I am impressed by your daily workouts, wow!”
As I told Mila, nothing of my workout is to be impressed or admired; if I had another choice, I’d rather to spend those daily 2~3 hours to watch the movies in my wasting list, read some aching books, or listen to those unfamiliar/refreshing pop-songs (to me)… 😀
“I know some people who really need to move to feel well. I wish I was like this!”
More people in COO (by proportion) are like this (just go to any park there from 5~8 am and then 6~10pm). I was like this since I was a kid; still remember well the acute sensation of high/euphoria — during “double jumping” rope (self rolling the rope twice before landing the feet once) 50~100 times at one shot, in my 4th~5th grader, no other kids could do it. This ability helped my Qigong rise/jump high (nearly one meter above the ground) at age of 20 in college, killing any drowsiness or depression in my body and feeling superb energetic.
“I would say that I’m the opposite.
Well, new resolution, I will try to channel your approach.”
I actually ENVY you! So many times I wanted to just lay leisurely at a beach or on a swing bed between trees, but unable to physically settle down for unknown reasons. My head/spirit longed for relaxation, but my body needed movements; I never quite understood such restlessness (even during the happy periods of my marriage or going out with that Parisian lover). Now, such a tendency is doing mighty good for my injury recovery.
I think as we age, movements of any kind becomes more beneficial to our over all health in a short and long run. I’ll be campaigning/cheering up for your new resolution! 💪 Trust me you’ll feel much better even if you’re feeling great now!
“Tonight I am having a small party and there will be cocktails. Very little moving, apart from maybe a boogie to Spotify.”
How did your party go? How many people showed up? What kind of“boogie” did you play? Can you show me links of your chosen “boogie” pieces? 😋
“About this:
[I don’t think I could ever be in that “forgetful” stage, although I might feel very indifferent as now.]
“Really? I am surprised, somehow I thought your xLO (the big one from your last job) was mostly forgotten now?”
What I meant was that you forgot logistical part of phone-meeting with your XLO until that morning. I’d remember any kind of scheduled meeting with anyone days beforehand, let alone a big XLO, who has made a dent/impact in my personal history (my cptsd was largely cured during the LE).
My only XLO is not forgotten, but the memories of most events have lost their emotional charges, except very occasionally I’d be triggered (by someone else’s LO/LE repeated in LwL) and felt upset/angered briefly at XLO and mostly my Self, from 5 minutes up to 2 hours. (thanks to a Stoic key question: “What is within and out of your control⁉️”)
“Or maybe you choose to remember aspects of what you learned from it?”
I don’t think I’ve done any choosing since 13 months ago; bad and good aspects are still in my memory, but more dulled. Growing up in COO, we learned since young to forgive but not to forget, since everything, negative or positive, serves as a lesson for wisdom or a luck/karma for gratitude.
There is also a COO idiom hammered into our head: “A good horse doesn’t return to its old pasture” meaning — “Don’t go back to what you’ve left behind.” or “Never reverse your forward progress.”
So my habitually curious, trained mind, especially after Longing and LE were dramatically gone within 2 hours, just naturally moved forward, wondering about and looking forward to possibly exciting (even 1% of chance) unknowns.
With Stoic practices, I’ve noticed that nowadays it’s like eating a piece of cake to stop thinking about anything in the past — NOTHING you (plural) can do about the past, so going back is just foolish❗️In addition, time has done its natural work — erasing emotional colors of all the XLE events occurred in the reality or perceived in the head❗️
“I think you might be right. My guess is that xLO is a serial limerent himself. I think he might even have lost his mind a bit at the same time as I did. “
Your guess? You must’ve known some facts to define he’s “a serial limerent”, right? So you were mutually limerent for each other despite the barrier on both sides? *sigh*… (I still remember most of your story). You’re so right that having LE is like “having lost one’s mind, a bit or a lot” depending on a specific situation.
“But I could be wrong. We’re both partnered and miles apart, so who knows.”
The long distance made the LE worse or better? Did it matter what was the reality, or what was limerent perceived? I could not help think that the longing pain was just the same whether the other side was or wasn’t in LE with us, because our LE brain fancied/imagined a lot of stuff that added to the realistic agonies or unresolved past baggage, yes? Limerence takes place in one’s own head — a self-made cage without a lock, whether LO is available or unavailable, good or bad….
“I do think he is well over it and possibly being a bit naughty now. Well, he better be careful!”
How do you know that he’s well over it, if you’re not very sure that he was indeed in LE (or in what degree of LE — 70%~100%) with you (he kissed/hugged you once, right? Please forgive me if my memory was wrong here.)
Why do you say “he better be careful!”? For his own sake or yours? Hmm… being “a bit naughty” after LE has mostly faded— what could possibly happen either in the LO or limerent? 🤔
“Gosh. People are strange.”
“Strange” in what sense? Your statement makes me wonder how I would feel if I ever meet/bump into any of my x-crushes or XLO (dates or fwb don’t count), although there is NO such a chance for any of them.
“I am glad to hear that your work situation continues to work out. You are obviously good at what you do 😇”
Inherited from Dad, I think I get “high” at “preaching”/“brainwashing” others, which would enliven my eyes and fuel my spirit… just kidding 🤣 ! Two days ago, my face-making/eye-talking still got the attention of two babies in stroller — stopped one crying and the other chewing a pacifier. 😊
Send you a lot of 🌬️Qi 🤗 s!
Hi Bewitched,
Good to hear from you again, and also for getting the conversation rolling!
Unlike you, I am not a born satisficer, but often end up eventually getting there. And unlike Simon, I did agonize, and did second-guess, even after making important decisions. And this has been true about two important areas of my life: my career and my marriage.
Regarding my dating life, I have only had three significant relationships — the first in my twenties, the second in my thirties, and the final one at age forty up to the present (early sixties). And I have also, perhaps accidentally, followed Simon’s rule about the first third (finding out what you want in the person), and thereafter (committing to the next person who is better than all the previous ones).
Regarding my wife, who I committed to within a few months of dating, I quickly came to the conclusion that she was by far away the best of anyone I had dated until then. There was only one thing that didn’t quite satisfy the maximizer in me — that she was not my preferred body time, although most people, (including myself), would say that she was pretty, in a highly endearing sense.
Over the past nearly quarter century, my appreciation of her admirable qualities has only strengthened, while at the same time, I never really developed a solid physical attraction for her. Therefore, given the fact that neither one of us ever initiated sex, that aspect of our relationship came to be completely absent for the vast majority of our marriage. I also had nagging second thoughts about our marriage — what if I had waited for someone I found more sexually attractive? However, after reading Simon’s framing, I feel that deciding to marry my wife was absolutely the correct decision. If I had waited for someone more sexually attractive, I would in all likelihood have lost, and never again found, everything else my wife had to offer.
Another thing that has helped, perhaps paradoxically, is the slow realization that I am also not my wife’s ideal physical specimen (although I do make all reasonable efforts to stay healthy and fit). As a result, I no longer feel guilty about the way I view her, if she views me in the same way! The important thing is that both of our lives are enhanced by the marriage. Keeping this in mind, and making the decision, at least intellectually, (although the subconscious sometimes rebels!), that there is not to be any more second-guessing, has made it easier to fully commit to the marriage. And, as an added bonus, we have also made a little bit of progress in our sex life with the past year or so.
Bewitched, I always appreciate your keen insights!
Dear CatCyclist,
Thank you so much for filling in the details about your dating history. You write it so clearly. Is this how you always feel about it or does how you see it vary (have you gotten here after some to-ing and fro-ing)?
“I also had nagging second thoughts about our marriage — what if I had waited for someone I found more sexually attractive?”
This is a tough one because, on the one hand, sexual attraction is often seen as ‘dating 101’ and so obvious that its a given. Lets face it, its definitely a fun prospect. But its importance varies so much from person to person and across your life – plus what starts out as sexual attraction inevitably wanes as familiarity sets-in. Its perfectly possible to start off attracted and later really go off a person. So how important is it, really? Although I never would have thought this for a second when I was younger, I think that there is something to be said for cultivating sexual attraction for a person who ticks your other boxes.
In my case, I was wildly attracted to three out of four of my long term partners (here, I am talking about relationships exceeding 3/4 years). One of the ones I was less attracted to was also one of the most significant and I think I could have been happy with him. We broke up because of a mismatch in attitudes to long distance relationship after living together for a few years. When I met my SO, I knew he was ‘the one’ immediately and I was very attracted, but more like you would be to a beautiful picture and less that “whoa, who lit the fire!?” (which I have also experienced, so I recognised the difference). He is a quiet person who doesn’t rile me up. Somehow that affects our sexual chemistry but I am far from turned off by it. He’s more of an initiator than me, sexually, which I put down to hormones (lower testosterone).
I think that our own brains and where they are at play a part (I was ready to settle down when I met SO). And my age (early 30s at the time) meant that opportunities to meet partners were fading as most friends were settling down, work was demanding and I couldn’t cut it on nights out any longer – I had responsibilities.
CatCylist, I dont know if this is relevant to your SO but my ability to be interested in the opposite sex has shrunken hugely nowadays (I am in my 50s). When away on a girls trip recently, my friends and I struggled to think of a single guy we fancied (movie star, acquaintance, etc.) We would have all had a list when we were younger and I have known these friends since we were 18. This is just another example of why picking a partner based on (fleeting?) sexual attraction is maybe a trap? Love the one you’re with is a great policy, I think (maybe spice things up a bit by thinking naughty thoughts from to time to time – fantasy never hurt although it is maybe a bit dangerous for a former limerent). A proviso is that I do not think one should do this with someone you find sexually unattactive, that just seems a waste.
I am so glad to hear that things are going well for you two these days 😊
Bx
CatCylist,
“When away on a girls trip recently, my friends and I struggled to think of a single guy we fancied (movie star, acquaintance, etc.) ”
Really? I’m your age and I could rattle off … Idk … at least 10 male celebrities I find hot. And if you’re including ones who have passed away, I could easily rattle off another 10.
I’d be harder pressed to come up with guys I personally know right now … but I could still think of a couple.
That’s the beauty of having female friends. You can talk about hot men. 🙂 Have you never gone to a restaurant and leaned in to ask a friend, “Is it just me or is the waiter smoking hot?” 🙂 It’s rare, but it does happen. 😉
Sorry. That was meant for Bewitched.
CatCyclist and Bewitched,
Hope you’re both keeping well.
An interesting angle here, thanks for sharing and discussing. I like the satisficer vs maximiser contrast. It’s too easy these days to fall into being a maximiser.
Re this ‘commit to the one you like better than any previous one’ idea, a missing bit of what Simon is saying is how long you give it to judge that. A honeymoon period (particularly for a limerent) could skew the balance of that perception A LOT. If his argument is ‘make that decision after a year’ I could level with it more.
Hey Marcia,
“Really? I’m your age and I could rattle off … Idk … at least 10 male celebrities I find hot. And if you’re including ones who have passed away, I could easily rattle off another 10.”
Ha ha that made me laugh. Especially the bit about ‘ones who’ve passed away’ 😆
All of this fancying guys hasn’t happened to me in ages so I am actually a bit jelly of you (as my teenager says) – you’ve still got it, Marcia! I might get a mild zing, occasionally, very mild. But it barely registers these days 😁
A friend who is single has starting applying a small swipe of testosterone gel for various preventative reasons (truth be told she is slightly hypochondriac) but I’m interested to see if this will make any difference to her “urges”…
Speaking of ones who passed away, I think I might have been limerent for a celebrity that’s now passed. And this is just thinking back on it, I was not aware of it at the time.
Isn’t life amazing, the way we continue to discover new things about ourselves!
Dear LaR,
Its nice to hear from you too 😊!
You are so right about waiting out the honeymoon period. I reckon even a year is short for that to calm down, at least for me…
I was eavesdropping on some of your other convos and how you fell for your LO after she showed you kindness at a time when you really needed it. I think many of us are struck down with limerence when we are already low about something. I hope you are doing better now (less need for that crutch, in a manner of speaking)?
I have been doing better and better. Actually, I am going to see LO shortly, f2f. -See my update to Snow. The prospect does give me a little pause for thought but I am positive that I will be fine. I have no ability to mask feelings so I better be fine.
Have a great weekend, LaR!
🚜🕺
Miss Bewiched
Might that be Idris Elba, Antonio Banderas, Tom Harding or Josh Brolin or maybe even Charles Bronson. Those men know how to dress. I’m super jealous I can’t afford to look that good. I’m just a poor boy that tries his best to look his best.
Hi Bewitched,
Thank you for all of your pertinent questions and philosophical insights.
I have had my own struggles regarding the importance of raw, physical attraction versus “inner beauty” since long before my marriage. I remember an instance around age thirteen, when we were first beginning to discover feelings about the opposite sex, our English teacher asked what qualities we deemed important. Most of the boys mentioned superficial qualities, but I said that IQ is important. It may sound quaint now, but the teacher seemed to agree.
However, nearly all of my crushes were beautiful, and I struggled with my cognitive dissonance. One of my most memorable limerent episodes was with an exotic beauty who lived in my dorm, an exchange student from a local women’s college, who was an East coast intellectual as well as a swimsuit model. What a combination! She said, a bit ironically, that she was done dating very good looking guys, also models, who were so full of themselves; she said that looks should not factor AT ALL in relationships. So she turned to dating guys mostly from our dorm, one of whom was my roommate. However, that relationship, as well as all others that she had, lasted no longer than a month. In fact, most of my friends had simultaneous crushes on her, but she dated only a few of us. She said that she felt jaded by relationships. Imagine feeling jaded at age twenty! Finding her college peers less than satisfying, she then redirected her attention to thirty-plus year old university professors. But she found them to be just as egotistical as the models. Anyway, as we were spit out one by one (or were rejected immediately), most of us plebeians moved on, but only two of us maintained friendships with her for another decade beyond college. In fact, I last met her in the nineties, when she had become a resident physician, and she was still struggling with short-lived relationships, most with powerful men at the height of their careers. Today, I think we would owe her former troubles to the paradox of choice.
A few years later, I got an unexpected email from her saying that she had eloped with a technician at her office. I guess she had done a U turn away from all the big egos, and finally found her partner. We then lost touch with each other for the next three decades until … this January. It turns out that her husband is attractive also (in my personal opinion), but not in an ostentatious manner. They appear to have had a rather successful marriage of three decades. So what does all this mean?
In other tidbits, I recently met up with one of my cousins and his parents, including his mother in her final days. He had one of the most successful careers of any family member in our generation, at least financially. Endowed with good looks and supreme confidence, he could pick the prettiest fashion model. However, now in their fifties, his wife commented on how much she admired OUR marriage. Moreover, she no longer looks so hot. I fact my own wife, who is a decade older, has a prettier, happier face. I saw a kind of formal distance between them, and their seventeen year old daughter, herself a budding beauty, completely ignored all of us — not a single word. I was later told by another cousin that she treats all of us this way. For background, his dying mother, who had by then become good friends with my wife, was herself a world-class beauty in her prime. But here was a subtle tension between her and her fashion model daughter in law. All in in all, it was a rather bittersweet experience. Felt gratitude for our own relative fortunes and for having known them, but of course grieving for my aunt’s passing a week later.
I intend to tell you more about my wife’s experiences in my next email, and we can continue these wonderful conversations.
Have a good evening, Bewitched.
CC
Bewitched,
“All of this fancying guys hasn’t happened to me in ages so I am actually a bit jelly of you (as my teenager says) –you’ve still got it, Marcia!”
I got it but does it want me? 🙂
“A friend who is single has starting applying a small swipe of testosterone gel for various preventative reasons (truth be told she is slightly hypochondriac) but I’m interested to see if this will make any difference to her “urges”…”
I’d be curious, too. Also … how it affects the downstairs system.
“Speaking of ones who passed away, I think I might have been limerent for a celebrity that’s now passed.”
It’s actually better to be limerent for someone who is dead. They can’t disappoint you. 🙂
“Might that be Idris Elba, Antonio Banderas, Tom Harding or Josh Brolin or maybe even Charles Bronson.”
I’m always kind of baffled by the men who other men think women like.
Yes, please … but only on Tom Harding.
” Those men know how to dress. I’m super jealous I can’t afford to look that good. ”
With Tom Harding … you have to be born with it. Those lips! 🙂
Dearest Bewitched,
It’s great to hear from you. You sound pretty chipper and that’s always a welcome development!
“I was eavesdropping on some of your other convos and how you fell for your LO after she showed you kindness at a time when you really needed it. I think many of us are struck down with limerence when we are already low about something.”
Here’s the thing I don’t know, and I am getting more OK with not knowing – was it ‘calculated kindness’ or does she just have oceans of genuine kindness for people she likes? As ever, I’ve been analysing the evidence forensically and I think it’s the second one.
“I hope you are doing better now (less need for that crutch, in a manner of speaking)?”
Thank you. I have had a pretty challenging spell again because of massive issues in SO’s family. To be fair, my family is capable of producing just as many issues, just the pendulum has tipped that way for now. Doing my best to support SO through it, and she’s been appreciative of that lately.
Re ‘the crutch’ – I still have a really warm relationship with her but am a long way off falling back into limerence. I am better at just enjoying what we have but not chasing after so much ‘extra-curriculur’ time with her. In that way I have a much steadier level, without the manic highs and meltdown lows.
“I have been doing better and better. Actually, I am going to see LO shortly, f2f.”
Let me make a prediction to you, oh wise 🦉. Seeing him ftf will remind you of what made you limerent, as that is where he gives the best of himself – and he will still be trying to do that. But – you will get past that quicker and more painlessly than ever before this time.
Keep us posted please ✉️
Lx
Hi LaR,
Good to hear from you as well!
You make an excellent point about the time frame for deciding and about limerence.
In my case, when I met my wife, there was no limerence involved, at least for me; don’t know if that was also the case for my wife. Also, the introduction was through a marriage introduction service, where the expectations are different than for a dating service; the latter is more for casual dating. In our case, there were no dating games, and I got to know the essence (not the totality) of her personality within months. And I have been advised by numerous elders that the essence is more important; you have the rest of your life to get to know her more fully.
As to my post-marriage limerent experiences, sure, the limerent thoughts — the attraction, the desire, the yearning — all may have been stronger than the mature relationship with SO, but I did not LIKE any of them better than SO, even at peak limerence.
Best wishes on your continued progress, LaR.
Dear Marcia,
“I got it but does it want me🙂”
Yes, it does.
You gotta want it yourself, girl, believe me and take it from someone who feels that she’s lost it. Its no fun no to fancy people any longer!!!!
Adam,
You posted some pics a while back and I have to say that I do like your style. The hat and waistcoat. I like it. I like that you seem to have a point of view and I think it makes you both interesting and approachable, looking.
BTW, I do not fancy any of those guys you listed 😆🤪!!
Now I am of to curate my music mix….
Bewitched,
“Its no fun no to fancy people any longer!!!!”
What else is there in life? 😉
Btw, the very day I posted that post to you, my friend and I went out to dinner. The waiter was smoking hot . (Like I wrote, it’s not a common occurrence but it was an eerie coincidence. ) We both commented on it, and she’s a bit older than I am. 59. I mean … it was the kind of hot where you start looking around at the table to find things to drop on the floor so he has to pick them up. 🙂
“BTW, I do not fancy any of those guys you listed 😆🤪!!”
Me, neither. Except Tom Hardy. (Not Harding.) I think he’s hot. I noticed him years ago in “Tinker, Tailor, Solider, Spy.” Even with a bad wig on, I thought: Who is that guy? He’s sexy. And Colin Firth was in that movie, too. Hard to get noticed if Colin Firth is around. 🙂
Marcia and Bewitched,
yes to Tom Hardy, no to Colin Firth, I‘ve never understood why he’s supposed to be sexy. He might be a nice person, but otherwise? No vibe.
Mila,
I‘ve never understood why he’s supposed to be sexy.
Apparently, you haven’t seen “Pride & Prejudice.” Or “The Girl with a Pearl Earring.”
“He might be a nice person, but otherwise? No vibe.”
We’re not paying him to be nice. 🙂
Marcia,
I‘ve seen a bit of Pride and Prejudice, I wasn’t keen, also very boring in Bridget Jones (horrible film anyway). Sorry, not my taste.. Tom Hardy is a much better actor, too.
Mila,
“Tom Hardy is a much better actor, too.”
Umm … Have you never seen “The King’s Speech” or “A Single Man”? Firth is terrific in those movies.
I don’t think I’ve seen Hardy in anything but “Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy.” There is one movie where Hardy drops trou. I can’t remember which one.
Marcia,
Ok, maybe that’s the problem, I‘ve seen Colin Firth only in these Romcoms, he might be good in serious films. I‘ve seen Tom Hardy in Peaky Blinders, Inception, Taboo, I think.
That might change my attitude. I’ve noticed that it’s attractive for me if a man is very good at what he does, maybe Colin Firth could up his attractiveness for me if I watched him in a good film..
I know for me, what I assume other women find attractive in a man, are the deficiencies is see in myself projected onto them.
So yeah well dressed men, who are around my age (younger guys I don’t even notice) that can afford nice clothes, a tailor, a person trainer are going to ooze sophisticated. But yet (from what I hear of them) very approachable and kind with their fans no matter their age. Caring how you carry yourself on the outside while still carrying yourself with kindness and humility is attractive no matter that I prefer women.
Also I don’t know if it’s Hardy or Harding. But outside of fashion blogs and articles, I was talking about the one that played Bane in Nolan’s third Batman movie.
Adam,
„ I was talking about the one that played Bane in Nolan’s third Batman movie.“
That’s Tom Hardy. I liked his character in „Peaky Blinders“ a lot.
Mila,
“I’ve noticed that it’s attractive for me if a man is very good at what he does, maybe Colin Firth could up his attractiveness for me if I watched him in a good film..”
Um … it’s called “having range,” my precious. He can do rom-coms, period pieces, contemporary dramas. 🙂
I can’t believe you didn’t like Price and Prejudice. It’s all in the way he looks at the Elizabeth character. It’s so romantic. It’s the same in “Girl with a Pearl Earring.” It’s all in his eyes — but it’s more sexual, the way he looks at Scarlett Johansson. Built around a story of two characters who are trapped in roles in their environment and who are very into each other and who get each other in a way no one else does. It’s very sexy.
But I’m ok if you don’t like him. You’d be one less woman I have to shove out of the way to get to him. 🙂
Adam,
“I know for me, what I assume other women find attractive in a man, are the deficiencies is see in myself projected onto them.”
What I assume men like in female celebrities has nothing to do with me at all; I don’t enter the picture. Why would I? 🙂 She’ll more than likely be some degree of traditionally attractive. The type of woman she is — girl next door type or femme fatale or bookish type, etc. — depends on the individual man’s taste.
“Caring how you carry yourself on the outside while still carrying yourself with kindness and humility is attractive no matter that I prefer women.”
I don’t care how the actor is in real life. For me, it’s about some level of charisma and sex appeal on screen. Also depends on the role. I’ll watch James Spader in anything but he was very sexy in Secretary.
“I was talking about the one that played Bane in Nolan’s third Batman movie.”
That was a total waste of his talents. He was behind a mask the whole movie. 🙂
Very interesting article, CatCyclist.
While I‘m definitely a satisficer, this comment gave me food for thought:
„The word “happiness” is misused here, by both the writer and the economist, if that is indeed the word the latter used. This is an essay about CONTENTMENT, which is a relative of happiness but differs in important ways. Contentment is the ability to be satisfied with one’s circumstances and has more to do with an individual’s inner life than the actual circumstances. I have often thought that contentment is, in a way, the enemy of ambition. If you think about it, much of human advancement and achievement is fueled by discontentment.“
While I think contentment is a good thing and ambition is overrated, it still rings a bell that maybe for me there needs to be a grain of excitement, wanting and feeling the best, feeling skyhigh and not just „settling“ to be happy with my choice of partner and to be able to be content later. But then, I‘m a limerent.
So nice to hear from „old“ posters like Bewitched, LaR and Snow, and that you all seem to do well!
Funny that you should meet your LO soon, Bewitched, we seem to follow parallel paths again, I just had my XLO and his SO at my place for dinner the other night. It wasn’t the best constellation (there were two more)and the best of evenings , I actually wished a bit that they would leave soon so I could watch the Rome Masters in tennis🙈.
In hindsight, it was his SO who created the atmosphere, I think she really didn’t want to be here, she emanated some kind of almost hostile vibes. xLO himself was how he always is- passive, but kind of relaxed and eager. No real conversation or warmth the whole evening, I’d say, but it‘s very possible that he himself wasn’t aware of it.
Being long out of limerence, this friendship still gets me thinking. I never know which angle to take.
But I feel I’m getting closer to neutrality.
I can see more clearly how he is, his limits and advantages, without emotional involvement from my side.
I still get automated negative responses to him though, I think I kind of trained them onto myself, while it still seems to be important to me to „fulfill my duty“ and invite them for dinner etc, but now I think I feel more relaxed and neutral. I avoided one on ones for the last couple of meetings, and now I‘m able to think that it would maybe be nicer or wiser to meet one on one next time to keep the friendship going , and this without feeling a single trace of limerence. But it‘s possible that we won’t meet for over a year. Which is also ok for me.
So, still moving forward, I guess, and I guess Bewitched’s meeting will be a variation of what LaR suggested- and I‘m still of the opinion that at least in my case, contact with the right mindset gets me moving forward better than no contact. Might be that you also feel progress after the meeting!
Love to you all- I’m in awe of Snow‘s fitness regime by the way! And good luck with the issues in SO‘s family, LaR. Our age is a challenging one, aging parents, growing kids.
I‘m also interested in the testosterone story, by the way, hormones being a subject in our age too.
Hi Mila,
Nice to hear your voice too among us, ahem, ‘oldies’.
You mean you trained the negative reactions to him into yourself as a way to fight the limerence, and now they won’t go away even long after the limerence has?
I don’t think you’re in any danger of relapsing if you see your xLO one on one. A little different to Bewitched (though I think she has her situation with xLO under good control too) – but her xLO irritates her at work and glimmers outside work, whereas yours was the opposite – and where you don’t work with him anymore, you see less of the side you fell for.
You’re right about our age. The issues SO and I face with our families are pretty much ever present and can get all consuming. It is a battle for us to calibrate it right, to do enough to be supportive but also not get sucked in deeper than we should. I’m not trying to moan about it, and I am sure many of us here are in similar boats, just saying it is very much a big thing we both have to live with.
„ You mean you trained the negative reactions to him into yourself as a way to fight the limerence, and now they won’t go away even long after the limerence has?“
Exactly like that. Maybe not only limerence but some kind of disappointment in having lost a friend I’ve apparently never had, because I attributed too much traits to him he never had because that was the kind of friend I wished for. Which is not his fault. And to protect myself I got this kind of distancing negative reflex, and now it’s quite automated. I still don’t know if it’s the right thing my kind produced to keep me sane and it will have to stay because this ship of friendship has sailed, or if I’ll reach real neutrality at some point. I’m not very invested in that question though- time will tell.
My XLO shows his best sides at work, but i wasn’t limerent when working with him for ten years, it started with his leaving. Now I feel I could work with him again even on a regular basis without glimmer. But I don’t really want him to come back though. Better to close that chapter.
“ I’m not trying to moan about it, and I am sure many of us here are in similar boats, just saying it is very much a big thing we both have to live with.”
I feel I’m in a phase of respite but expect the worries /family problems to raise their head any time. It’s tough. I wish you and your SO lots of resilience and patience.
Gosh,
I hadn’t re-read my post, it has many mistakes in it, like “kind” instead of “mind”, “much” for “many” etc.
Sorry!
Hey Mila,
You sound really contented, and that makes me happy. I know that you had been feeling rough at the end of your limerence. Hopefully that is improved? Its a hard come-down, isn’t it?
By the way, I think you would be safe in a one-to-one with your xLO, at this stage, as an attempt to re-set the friendship (if that is what you eventually want).
About my own position, I am doing well, but I wouldn’t say that life is easy, either! Like LaR, a bomb has gone off in my SO’s family (which makes a change from my lot). Mostly right now we are coping with that, and also, I am constantly amazed by how different his family reacts to stuff from mine. Unbelievable.
Sending you a hug.
Bx
Bewitched,
It’s so funny, my phone still knows your nickname and delivers it quite fast when typing.
„By the way, I think you would be safe in a one-to-one with your xLO, at this stage, as an attempt to re-set the friendship (if that is what you eventually want).“
Yes, I would be safe, which is proven by that I don’t really feel an urge to meet him one on one, I just muse that it might probably be better for our connection to talk about something in our pace without others, but if it doesn’t happen, it’s actually the same for me.
I still felt some sort of wondering yesterday, if this somewhat dragging evening with a bleak feeling is now the status of our dead friendship and if yes, if I made it so with my protection of myself. But now I think that’s too dramatic and time will tell if we can liven this connection up or if it’s a slow goodbye.
Also I noticed that I used to somehow pity his SP a bit because he‘s so incapable of emotional talk or warmth, but yesterday I observed and got to the conclusion that this emotional stunted way of being might be at least as much of his SO‘s making, just subtly better hidden.
So they are probably well suited, one might think. Not sure though, but this was also a quite detached observation of mine.
Sorry to hear that your SO‘s family has problems too. I tend to get not involved into my SO‘s family’s stuff and we all got along best this way, but until now there was no need to get involved, don’t know how it’ll be in the future. It’s more my family that’s a bit fragile now.
Let’s try to enjoy the moment without constant anxiety about what will/could be.. (something I seem to be more prone of lately).
Very curious to hear about your meeting soon!
🔥 🍑 🍷,
It’s great to hear your whereabouts, you sound so calm/cool, your writing is so clear and logical, compared to 2 or even 1 year ago. I’ve been here, although reading more than writing — no needs or urges after xLE…
My PT workout regime was ordered initially to recover my left arm and right thigh from my nasty fall in Florence last year. Now the arm is completely healed (can hold right hand on my back through the shoulder) but I still see PTist once a week for the leg. On my own, core and lower back workouts were ordered as well so each session at home gets longer and longer.
After 3 constantly months, the body becomes “addicted” and craves for daily movement and sweat — Qi flows so much better and I can get “high”, which allows me to easily face all sorts of “out of control” matters with steady peace and empathetic smiles. Now, I truly understand that without a physical fitness, I simply can’t handle mental challengers and emotional stresses…
I so agree with your statement about “contentment” (steady fulfilling) vs. “happiness” (transitory and fleeting).
Have to run for work, later 🫂
Hi Snow,
I remember your fall on the streets of Florence, didn’t know it had such consequences. I hope the issues of the fall are soon completely resolved!
I go to the gym regularly at the moment and it‘s finally very good for me (after changing workouts and machines a bit), there‘s a clear connection between physical exercise and mental well- being, I agree!
🔥 🍑 🍷 Mila,
I don’t go to gym (7 blocks away) at all, taking too long and too many steps to reach those machines, and body/sweat smells there usually suffocate me — remember I’ve got a half dog nose, really unfortunate in any public space, I suffer bad smell every single time when I go out.
In my living and bed room with a yoga mat, a couple of dumb bells, thick thera-belts, a knee pad, a gym ball, and empty wall space, I get all my needed PT workout done within 2 hours before taking my morning expresso.
The consequence of the Florence fall got worse was Precisely due to delayed Orthopedic diagnosis/prescriptions and delayed PTs in time (Had to wait two months after the July surgery and for my old PTist’ availability). But during the speedy recovery from the surgery, I developed the frozen shoulder on the left (couldn’t button any bras on the back) and tendonitis on the right hip and thigh which sometimes pinch the around nerves (no bones or nerves were damaged, luckily!).
You think my ambition/“aggression” would passively accept the orthopedics diagnosis and advice to change the half of my wardrobe? (It’s so painful to put on any turtleneck, T-shirts, and back-hook bras). So with the detailed, thorough prescription (My PTist highly praised my orthopedics’ precisions), I seriously worked and persisted. I also passed some newly learned PT movements to Mother, so as to strengthen her naturally declining muscles.
When I followed up with the orthopedics in March and locked my two hands over my shoulders on my back, he almost dropped his jaws! I loved to defy social and health norms/common senses and produce my own “magics” 💪
Then this silly-serious looking orthopedics, (in his early 40s, did not glimmer for me at all after 4 visits) out of blue, suddenly asked me where I took my tea (which puzzled me up to this day), I promptly answered: always take my tea at home. Then he said nothing, peeked me through his mask and continued a bit more instructions. Why on earth a doctor asked me, in the middle of a medical checkup, where I usually take my tea? 🤔
Anyway, the point of this verbose message is: None of us here is growing younger and our system is declining/slowing down. Yet, only muscles can keep growing as long as we use/move/train them. Based on an ancient COO wisdom — “Life depends on movements!” Therefore, even if you’re sick or injured, keep moving in whatever ways that suits your body/health conditions!
Do I sound like a workout preacher or “addict” now? 🧐
Hi Snow,
You are really admirable in persisting! and also lucky in having a good PT, I’ve also experienced with bad ones who recommend you exercises that worsen the situation or don’t help, so i wasted my time doing the wrong stuff.
My gym is quite close, small and usually clean and not overcrowded, and somehow it‘s easier for me to get into a routine there than workout at home, there are too many distractions at home with family etc
But now I’ll be away for a week on a work trip and then it would be ideal to have some exercises for the hotel room. Maybe I’ll take my Theraband and look something up on YouTube.
I wish you more speedy recovery! Your orthopedic was so enthusiastic about your flexibility that he got some other thoughts;), but since you didn’t encourage him in your answer he immediately stopped hitting on you, which is actually the decent thing to do. That’s my interpretation… or he thought that your nutrition was responsible for your quick recovery and wanted to know what it was;)
🔥 🍑 🍷,
6 months ago, I got no choice in front of my worsening left arm and right leg; who’d want a permanent frozen shoulder or weakened/limping leg — the orthopedics’ initial diagnosis 🙄 My PTist (still the same Asian young man from last year before my fall) was great in instructing specific stretching and strengthening movements towards even a single muscle strip.
So in the past 6 months, I gained 4~5 lbs muscle mass in hip and thighs, got a tiny 6-pack, which all reduced the relevant pains/sores. Another “side effect” of workout is that my glucose level (never too high) even dropped to below the minimum required level, so now I can indulge good 🍫 or a bit more. 😀 (I’m not a fan of cakes — too sweet.)
I agree that your home, with several family sweeties, would not be an ideal place to fly your arms and legs all over places. Lucky you have a quiet gym to go! Yes, strong, thick cotton or rubber Theraband is very good to carry on travels (I did last weekend in a hotel); they don’t yank but gradually pull muscles, which is more effective.
My PT says a big difference between YT and PT workouts is that the latter goes much slower — purposefully avoiding “momentum/impulsive force”. I’m required, when contracting muscles, to pause/hold a pose for 3-10 seconds (almost killed me at the beginning) while keep normal breathing, so muscles get oxygens and increase their volume/strength simultaneously.
My orthopedics comes across as a serious and a bit nervous man (never smiled or relaxed). His medical notes in my file (all other doctors in the same system can see) sounds like an intern/pupil’s reports to his mentors/teachers, “Hi doctors, I did this… examined that… got the impressions….” so different from my other specialty doctors’ notes. He reminds me a bit of the doctor in British TV series “Doctor Martin”.
Enjoy your gym work and trip soon!