It’s summer. It’s hot. I’m currently on holiday.
That means that this month’s check in at the LwL virtual coffeehouse is a totally open thread.
Catch up and gossip you marvellous people 🙂
Coffeehouse: open thread
Additional menu
Life, love, and limerence
I turn to you lovely people since I seem to have nobody else to talk to.
My best girlfriend has gone MIA. I have no explanation. She texts me occasionally, even though we used to speak on the phone almost every day. I asked her to reassure me that she’s okay, and she snapped back, “Why wouldn’t I be okay, I am texting you.” Which doesn’t sound like her at all.
My other best girlfriend is having health problems and is not up to talking much.
This is very distressing, but nothing I can do at this point.
Meanwhile, I spent some time with LO, listening to his latest installment of “LO versus the IRS.” This has been going on for eleven years.
I think my Limited Contact strategy is working okay. I find myself bored with LO for periods of time while we’re together, which is a good sign. Spending time with him and slowly becoming disillusioned is what I am aiming toward.
One thing I am interested in seeing, is if LO changes at all after his IRS problems are resolved. He has told me repeatedly over the years that the stress of this has changed his personality and made it difficult to keep up his sense of humor.
I am skeptical. Time will tell.
Norma,
“My best girlfriend has gone MIA. I have no explanation. She texts me occasionally, even though we used to speak on the phone almost every day. ”
I have found that when this happens — a friend, seemingly out of nowhere, changes the dynamic of the friendship — there’s nothing you can do. It’s very jarring when someone does this, but all you can do is either accept the “new normal” or let the friendship fade out.
“I asked her to reassure me that she’s okay, and she snapped back, “Why wouldn’t I be okay, I am texting you.” Which doesn’t sound like her at all.”
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with shooting her a text and saying, “Hey, I’ve haven’t heard from you. I hope you’re ok. Would love to talk.” It sounds like you’ve already done a version of that. But I’d only do it once, and seeing as how she’s responding (not really telling you why things have changed), there’s no point in doing it again. And her tone (hard to tell in a text, admittedly) sounds a little irritated. I’d let her reach out to me. I wouldn’t reach out to her.
I had a friend do this a couple of years ago — not go completely MIA but contact me much less — and I took it a step further from just a simple check-in to initiating “the talk” (over the phone, not text) that I really valued our friendship and they seemed busy and what was the best way to keep in touch, blah, blah, blah. Things improved for about a couple of weeks and went right back to where they were. In the future, I won’t have “the talk” again. The person already knows things are different. They know they’re contacting you less. And since they chose to pull back without discussing it with you (I can’t remember any friend ever discussing it with me before pulling back) … you’ll never get them to tell you why their behavior has changed.
My best advice is to go out and make new friends. I am predicting you’re going to tell me you can’t. 🙂 But you’ve listed in your post 3 friends you made in the past — these two girlfriends and your LO. So you can do it again. 🙂
To Marcia:
Thank you for your wise comments. Yes, of course I can make new friends.
However, it does take time. I have known my best girlfriend for about nine years and you can’t replace a nine-year friendship overnight.
Very odd how people change. I don’t know what happened.
“Very odd how people change. I don’t know what happened.”
Have you never been the one who wanted to end the friendship? (I’m not saying your friend wants to end your friendship. Idk if she does. This is just an example.) I had one long-term friend years ago, and I became aware, over several months, how negative she was. Debbie Downer. Very critical. I don’t know why I had never noticed it as much. I realized I did not enjoy spending time with her. So for a while I dodged hanging out, but we continued our monthly-ish phone calls, but one time she really snapped at me and I realized I didn’t want to talk to her on the phone, either. I did not know what to do. It’s my theory that you can ask someone to change minor things about themselves (maybe they’re always late and you ask them to make an effort to be on time) but not to change big parts of their personality. Being negative … that’s who she was. So I shifted to just texting and tried to do the slow fade but that caused her to text me more. And finally I told her about her negativity (I felt really uncomfortable doing that) … and she responded by justifying it. Which kind of proves my theory … there was no hope. I didn’t respond and she didn’t, either.
There’s no formal protocol to end a friendship the way there is a romantic relationship. I don’t like the way I handled that but I don’t know of another way to do it.
To Marcia:
I don’t think I have ever been the one who wanted to end a friendship.
I’m going to take your advice and stop trying to contact my friend.
She knows how to reach me if she wants to.
“I don’t think I have ever been the one who wanted to end a friendship.”
Never? If I do, it’s usually in the early stages. I find out something about them I don’t like. I have one now … we’ve been friends for … idk … 6 months. And in multiple text conversations we’ve had, even ones she initiates … she just stops responding. It’s not a situation where the conversation dies/peters out. It’s sometimes fairly personal/serious. I find it off-putting and kind of rude. I’m discussing something personal and … crickets.
I don’t know if I’d go so far as saying I want to end the friendship and never talk again but I’m not going to put all that much effort in anymore.
To Marcia:
I just thought of a time when I ended a friendship.
But I did it abruptly. This was with a man who turned out to be a pathological liar. I stupidly believed the stories he told me and when I found out he was lying about everything, I simply cut him off.
This was not a romance of any kind, just somebody I would bump into when I went on walks. His lies were so huge, I felt I would not be comfortable even asking him what time it was.
I’ve been in LE for four years, and lately I’ve been experiencing a kind of grief.
Let me explain. During LE, I used to see it as some sort of spiritual, transcendent experience. But now, after three months of LC, I’ve started feeling irritated and even angry toward my LO. Some of his attitudes and behaviors have been bothering me, and I’m starting to see him very differently.
I know part of this resentment may come from the fact that I was rejected. But I also feel like I’m grieving the image I had of him in my mind. I used to see my LO as someone empathetic who lived a simple, grounded life. Now, I’m realizing that he may not be as empathetic as I thought, and that in some ways he can actually be quite shallow.
I think I’m grieving who I thought he was — someone who, in a way, never really existed. And I also feel guilty for having these negative feelings toward him.
At the same time, though, I think this may be healthier than continuing to feel hope, admiration, or other positive feelings toward him, because those feelings would probably make it harder for me to move on. At least now, I feel like the next stage of LE might eventually be indifference.
Has anyone else experienced grief over the version of their LO that existed mostly in their mind? And how do you deal with the anger or negative feelings that can come up once the idealization starts to fade?
To Fleabag:
I can totally identify with what you’re saying. The first time I got together with LO, we sat next to each other on his couch. I told him right up front that I had a crush on him and I hoped he wouldn’t be mad, because he’s gay. He put his arm around me, hugged me, and couldn’t have been nicer.
I know this sounds cheesy, but I felt like I was sitting next to Jesus, or Buddha, or something. Fleabag, when you mentioned a “spiritual, transcendent experience,” I think that’s the same as what I was feeling then.
Well, you couldn’t have pried me away from LO with a crowbar at that point. I felt transported to another world when I was with him.
I have had a lot of emotions to deal with. I have been angry, yes. LO has turned his bad temper on me several times (unwarranted), for which he has apologized profusely afterward, but I still remember how frightening he can be. He has freakishly large hands, and he has a habit of pointing his finger at me accusingly and stabbing the air in front of me. Having that ginormous hand so close to my face is unnerving, and frightening. I am 5-foot-two and he is 6-foot-3.
I think I am grieving the fantasy of who I thought he was, who I wished he was. I am resentful of the fact that he is flaky, whereas I am very reliable. I can’t relax around him the way I once did, because I never know when his unpredictable temper will make an appearance. Every single time he has lost his temper with me, it has been over something stupid, unexpected and unwarranted. So I feel I need to be hyper-vigilant and watch what I say. As an example, I once used the word “grumpy,” and he flew into a rage. I was speechless.
I posted above about slowly becoming disillusioned with him, which seems to be the best strategy. I have tried going No Contact, but it only makes me worse.
The fact that you’re starting to see your LO’s faults is a good thing. Hopefully we will both get to the point where we realize that our LO’s are quite ordinary and the addiction will fade away.
I had an entirely different post to you planned out. I did not write this the way I intended to, but I can’t seem to do any better at the moment. I’m sorry, I hope this was helpful.
To Norma:
I read some of your posts, and I’m really sorry for how your LO has been making you feel. His unpredictable behavior and the way he seems to point fingers at you are not things I see in a good light.
At the same time, I completely understand why it’s so hard to distance yourself, even when the LE is making you feel bad. Somehow, we miss that glimmer they once made us feel, or we miss the version of them we imagined they were. And then it turns out they’re their own person, with a whole personality of their own, huh?
Norma, I felt very much the same way you do. My LO isn’t unpredictable, but he has said and done things that made me feel bad. He overshares details about his life, a life I’m not part of, while knowing how I feel about him, and that hurts.
For a long time, I craved contact with him even though I often felt worse after our encounters. Reading this forum helped me realize that, for me, the best option was NC. Since we’re coworkers, though, complete NC isn’t really possible. Fortunately, there’s staged withdrawal, which is what I started doing, although sometimes I would give in and seek contact again.
Eventually, with more mistakes than certainties, I managed to get to LC. Now I try to avoid unnecessary contact and only reach out to my LO when it’s strictly necessary and work-related.
I think what helped me most in reaching LC was realizing that having an LE was much more about me than about my LO. The things that made the connection feel spiritual, transcendent, or somehow extraordinary were connected to me and to who I am. He was simply there, also somewhat vulnerable himself, at the right time, during a difficult period in my life.
I also came to realize that he is a good person, but he isn’t someone who deserves so much of my attention and emotional energy. When I see him more clearly now, he’s actually kind of predictable and even a little boring.
And that’s something I think might be worth considering, Norma: maybe your LE is much more about you than it is about your LO. And the person who truly deserves all the energy you’re putting into the LE is you.
I would trust the process of staged withdrawal. It may be messy, and you may have setbacks, but eventually, it can work.
To Fleabag:
Thank you for your comments. It is good to remember that the limerence and all the fantasies come totally from us. We’re the ones making ourselves feel how we feel.
Just because *I* believe something is significant, doesn’t mean that LO does.
I would prefer to be angry and disillusioned with LO, rather than drooling over him. That’s definitely a step forward.
fleabag,
“During LE, I used to see it as some sort of spiritual, transcendent experience. But now, after three months of LC, I’ve started feeling irritated and even angry toward my LO. Some of his attitudes and behaviors have been bothering me, and I’m starting to see him very differently.”
The LE rosy lens made you “see it as some sort of spiritual transcendent experience.” It’s more in your head, not in the reality. Now, the reality has begun to kick in, that’s a good sign for LE recovery.
“I know part of this resentment may come from the fact that I was rejected. “
How were you rejected? What did LO say or do that made you certain of his rejection? (Sorry to ask: are you a woman or man?)
“But I also feel like I’m grieving the image I had of him in my mind. “
I think throughout LwL discussions, we’ve learned and accepted that LO was/is always what we imagine them in our mind, “the image” was/is never/partially realistic.
“I used to see my LO as someone empathetic who lived a simple, grounded life. Now, I’m realizing that he may not be as empathetic as I thought, and that in some ways he can actually be quite shallow.”
Such a realization can help you break your LE. LOs are just like us limerents, deep or/and shallow in different aspects of an individual life. Everyone’s knowledge and experiences are limited; NO one knows it all.
“I think I’m grieving who I thought he was — someone who, in a way, never really existed. And I also feel guilty for having these negative feelings toward him.”
I think Dr. L said once to a poster, that it’s worse to grieve someone (LO) who ONLY existed in our head, NEVER in reality. You can’t even tell others about your “non-realistic” griefs. The realistic LO was not the person who was idealized or “worshiped” in your head merely.
“At the same time, though, I think this may be healthier than continuing to feel hope, admiration, or other positive feelings toward him, because those feelings would probably make it harder for me to move on. “
Yes, it’s healthier for you to get over LE. After LE, you’ll find out whether LO still has those positive traits and react towards/relate to them realistically.
“At least now, I feel like the next stage of LE might eventually be indifference.”
Ultimately, LE-Free means indifference towards Unavailable LO. Their positive or negative traits should not affect your mind and emotions. They can be friends if you want them to.
“Has anyone else experienced grief over the version of their LO that existed mostly in their mind? And how do you deal with the anger or negative feelings that can come up once the idealization starts to fade?”
I initially felt shocked when I found the XLO’s huge flaw (after 4 years of relatively quiet LE). I also felt angry and“cheated/betrayed” by his lying behavior. I even subtly “protested” in writing (didn’t feel I had a right loudly, not being his SO or gf).
But XLO effectively helped me recover my lifetime cptsd (while bringing me LE pains simultaneously), so my ultimate gratitude enabled me to get over the LE anger and negative feelings towards LO. His existence and non-judgmental ear benefited me Far More than those negative feelings caused Directly by my LE, but NOT by him directly (his unavailability and personality were not at faults).
In your LE, I think to balance pros and cons of your whole LE episode would be helpful. In your initial post, you said you were dealing with the loss of your father when this took place ? (the same as my case, right my father suddenly passed away). In my original culture, we try to remember every coin has two sides, and focus on our gratitudes for positive aspects life has incidentally brought us.
“Somehow, we miss that glimmer they once made us feel, or we miss the version of them we imagined they were.”
This occurs in the altered stage of the mind, not under our logical thinking. Glimmer has the power of bewitching our eyes; it’s our biological marker. It’s a privilege of our human mind, it’s beautiful to remember them, even just as dreams; or put them in artistic works.
“And then it turns out they’re their own person, with a whole personality of their own, huh?”
Of course, LO is an independent, round person of their own, quite separate from our LE imaginations and fantasies about them.
“My LO isn’t unpredictable, but he has said and done things that made me feel bad.”
Is it what LO said or did, or how we reacted (expected) to what LO said and did that made US feel bad? What and how did your LE say or do that directly made you feel bad?
Someone else here said that LO made them feel so good/addicted, thus they carved for LO and was unable to let LE go despite its longing pains. I rarely hear Limerents say they ever considered how their LE behaviors have made their ignorant/knowing LO (also with vulnerability) feel. We limerents can be so self-centered/focused….
“ He overshares details about his life, a life I’m not part of, while knowing how I feel about him, and that hurts.”
If your LE overshares details of his life, that means he treats you at least as a trustable friend. You feel hurt because you wish to be a part of his life but cannot be? I don’t know what’s your LE situation? Are there barriers for you to be a part of his life?
“For a long time, I craved contact with him even though I often felt worse after our encounters. “
Whey did contacts/encounters make you feel worse, due to your mentality or the situation barriers? That’s so unfortunate, normally limerents feel better after LO (even if unavailable) contact — a dopamine hit.
“I think what helped me most in reaching LC was realizing that having an LE was much more about me than about my LO.”
For most cases here, your insight here is accurate — LE is much more about limerent, sometimes it’s ALL about limerents, but not LO.
“The things that made the connection feel spiritual, transcendent, or somehow extraordinary were connected to me and to who I am.”
Yes! That’s a powerful insight. That’s the positive side of your LE — making you realize/discover WHO YOU ARE. “Know Thyself” is the most meaningful goal in our life; and truly validate, embrace, and love our Selfs, with all our limitations and vulnerabilities, can paradoxically make us Feel “invincible” — no longer care about anyone else’s lens.
“He was simply there, also somewhat vulnerable himself, at the right time, during a difficult period in my life.”
LO is always a catalyst/muse, with whom we learn about /see through OURSELVES. My XLE had such an effect, thus I do not regret it for anything.
“I also came to realize that he is a good person, but he isn’t someone who deserves so much of my attention and emotional energy. “
To be Smart Selfish (with capital S), You yourself deserves your most attention and mental/emotional energy. Without sufficient self love, we can’t love or truly care for another, for our beloved.
“When I see him more clearly now, he’s actually kind of predictable and even a little boring.”
You said he knows your feelings for him, did you ever think that he perhaps wanted/intended you to see his boring and non-glimmering sides, instead of your LE rosy images? Perhaps he wanted to be respected, liked and accepted in his realistic form?
“I would trust the process of staged withdrawal. It may be messy, and you may have setbacks, but eventually, it can work.”
Yes, “it can work”! But please ANTICIPATE and EXPECT unavoidable messy setbacks and withdrawal pains, which could make one feel drowning at times… When that happens, distract yourself with other activities, such as sweaty workout, long walks, good comedies, or vent here, which has its dual blades — release and worsen pains simultaneously.
Tomorrow is always a brand new day. “Always try to keep a patch of sky above your life.” — Proust
Hi fleabag,
“Snow, first of all, I really enjoy reading your posts. There’s so much sensitivity and self-awareness in them, and I really appreciate the way you reflect on things.”
Thank you for your compliments here, I’m flattered. I’ve been trying to learn from LwL how to be more sensitive to others’ feelings, especially under the LE wind.
“Thank you for replying to me with so much care and for taking the time to give such a thoughtful, detailed response.”
You’re welcome. LwL is a place to help those LE inflicted limerents who normally don’t have other venues to talk about their profound, puzzling struggles and unload their LE pains. It helped me recover TOTALLY from not just my last/only LE, but also heal my lifetime baggage — an unhealthy Longing.
“I’m a woman, and my nickname comes from the TV show Fleabag (which I strongly recommend, by the way).”
Thank you for the recommendation, I’ll check it out. I don’t like its title, too demeaning. My nick name in LwL is “Androgynous Knucklehead”, which at least doesn’t bite or suck anyone’s blood, just with a slow-winded, no-gender brain.
“My glimmer started with a coworker while my dad was terminally ill. He had recently gotten divorced too (his ex-wife’s choice). “
Please feel lucky and guilty-free that you didn’t ignorantly/knowingly glimmered at an unavailable LO (like I did)!
“We used to talk a lot about love, death, and how finite life is, and those conversations felt very deep and almost spiritual to me. Looking back, I actually think this glimmer helped me deal with my dad’s death in a more positive way.”
It sounds like you two truly had deep spiritual connection through those conversations. If you think/feel the Glimmer helped you through the most painful time in your life, then this Glimmer IS heavenly bestowed, regardless what happened later. Cherish it, would you?
“I never disclosed my feelings to LO because he had just gotten divorced, and later he got into a new relationship. “
If you never disclosed your feelings, how could you feel/think you were rejected by him? I thought you said (in the earlier post to Norma) that your LO knows your feelings for him, no?
“But eventually, he disclosed his feelings to me. I basically said, “Okay, then let’s be together.”
That sounds like a suggestion/decision to give the possible relationship a try, not exactly LE feelings. So you kept your head cool even when he disclosed?
“He said he was already committed and that he couldn’t be the reason I moved away from my family, since we live about 1,000 km apart. “
I got a bit confused here: he disclosed his feelings for you after he already committed to another woman? What commitment was that? So you’re long-distanced coworkers? And why “he couldn’t be the reason” you move away from your family, or the other way around? Couldn’t he move to your location since you both belongs to the same workplace?
“He also said he told me because he wanted me to know he had feelings for me too, and that it wasn’t all in my head.”
So he did know your feelings in your head? (You said so in your earlier posts). How did he find out? Through your long-distanced chats? In emails or texts or business calls? If I were you, I’d trust what he told you here. Don’t doubt it; or it would create more unnecessary confusions and self-doubts, not good for our mentality.
“I had a few setbacks trying to stay LC with him because I was already grieving my dad, and LO felt like the only person who really understood what I was going through.”
Yes, I know how it felt like when I was grieving the loss of my beloved father. I couldn’t help reach out to XLO to dump my unbearable pain of the sudden loss; after a couple of weeks, my LE was crystalized. Of course, our Glimmer made us to believe that ONLY LO really understood what we were going through. In our subconscious, we probably believed LO is our other half or a semi-god.
“I always knew that eventually he might get engaged and get married. “
How did you know for sure about this? In theory, you might get engaged and get married before he did. What’s the barrier preventing you two from getting closer? Just the long-distance or something else? Did you suspect anything else through your deep conversations? Compatibility? short of Love intensity?
“I tried to separate work from my personal feelings. I thought that if I kept some distance and stopped sharing personal stuff, I also wouldn’t have to hear much about his personal life.”
Understandable! It hurts to hear LO’s personal life while he’s not committed to your decision (of getting together).
“I even thought about changing jobs, but I worked really hard to get where I am today, and I don’t think hurting my career because of this would be good for me.”
You’re absolutely right here. Don’t change a meaningful job due to a long-distance LE. He’s not under your nose 8 hours per weekday. Can you change to a different department where you don’t have to deal with him at all professionally?
“The thing is, in the very few meetings we still have together, he almost always mentions his fiancée somehow. That’s actually how I found out they were engaged. “
I don’t’ understand why he does this, maybe he has been treating you as a close friend or a confidant, so feel natural/comfortable to tell you all about his life? Do you know who she is? Did you see her photos with an engagement ring in his SM?
“I don’t think he’s doing it to get a reaction from me, but I still found it really insensitive at first. My therapist said maybe he has simply moved on, which is probably true.”
Here you’ve lost me: why do you think “he’s doing it to get a reaction from” you? What kinds of a reaction you think he might seek from you? Your therapist sounds even unsure about his true feelings or his motives of the engagement.
“Still, it annoys me sometimes. Of course I want him to be happy, but I’m human and I have feelings. I don’t really want to hear about his fiancée, their wedding, their amazing trips, and all that stuff.”
Yes, you’re still in LE, so it hurts a LOT to hear about LO’s new life without you. I know it’s very hard or heartless to ask him not to confide in you. Has he actually got married or just engaged? Do you still have a faint hope that he’d cancel his engagement and fly into your longing, loving arms?
“That’s when I start thinking he’s shallow and I get pissed off.”
Please hold on your horse for a second here: WHAT exactly made you think “he’s shallow”? What exactly pissed you off? His engagement or the fact he told you about it? If he held back the news, wouldn’t you feel offended more for not being treated as a close friend?
“At the same time, I know he helped me through the worst period of my life, so it’s complicated.”
Okay! Here, let’s separate different matters in any relations and focus on one issue at a time. His help is one matter, and his engagement is another. The former brings you joy and lasting gratitude, the latter LE pains and resentment. One cannot be mixed/replaced/killed by the other, at least not for now. It is indeed complicated, but I hope in a long run, the first matter will surpass the latter.
“But honestly, I think using some of that irritated energy to detach might actually be helpful. “
Possibly. You’ll have to talk with Mila about this, I’m not experienced in this regard. My COO stressed on viewing positive sides of other people and life in general, not take anything for granted but hold on our genuine gratitudes, which by experience, I know it’s beneficial to my mental health. Carrying my Granny and Father’s genes, I was rarely able to hold any grudges/resentments beyond 3~4 days, which would hurt myself first and far most.
“Hopefully, eventually, I’ll get to a point where I just don’t feel much about any of it anymore.”
I’ll pray and keep a hope for you. But some LwL work might be needed to get to a point you wish to reach soon. 🍀
Fleabag,
It’s a fantastic show! OMG, the hot priest! Swoon! 🙂
Correct me if I’m wrong, but if I’m understanding the timeline correctly … you and your LO were both single at one point. If you need something to be irritated about … I’d be angry (and hurt) that he didn’t pursue you. And then you became close while he was dating another woman, with whom he became serious ? And then he told you he did have feelings but was committed to her ? Sounds like he knowingly had an EA. What are you supposed to do with the information that he has feelings if he’s with someone else?
I think he wants he wants his cake and to eat it, too.
(If I’m understanding the situation correctly)
Hi fleabag,
That could have been me.
I was limerent for a longtime friend. When I came to your phase of disenchantment, I found that he even wasn’t the person I thought he was before limerence,(I could even take the exact same description that you used- someone who enjoyed simple things and was grounded, empathetic and honest, but suddenly seems to be much more shallow and restricted), I struggled with resentment and anger for a long time , I’m not completely free if it even now.
But it’s important not to forget that it’s all our doing- if we create an idealized version of LO in our head, they are not to blame when we suddenly see that reality is different. They didn’t deceive us or suddenly changed, they were always like that and it’s all our making.
Still, it’s a very real grief and has to be lived through. If anger and resentment is there, it’s there and maybe an important step away from limerence. Just don’t let it bind you to LO this time in a negative way, take it as an opportunity to take a step further away from the illusion of limerence.
Mila,
You just made me to ask: do authors really grieve the loss of his/her beloved fictional Character (based on a real person, LO)? Don’t they create another one in another book/poem if they so wish/desire?
Each of us limerents was/is an “author in LE fever”, creating this shiny semi-god/goddess in the mind. When the fever came down, we felt so disenchanted or blamed LO for what s/he never was/is.
Any level-headed, grounded LO would dislike to be treated for what s/he is NOT (or as walking drug) by their limerents in the altered state of mind or in LE addiction. Imagine our LO have found this site to read our mind?!
I understand your struggles and progresses in your disenchantment. Mine lasted much shorter because Stoic view points. I even felt for sympathy/empathy for XLO after the enchantment. If dealing with a flawless semi-god, how would I feel about myself with my set of vulnerability?
Norma, (I’m not sure if I’m replying on the correct thread)
but I wanted to thank you for your kind thoughts and words.
I wish you all the best. I’m always reading your posts and truly appreciate them.
To Fleabag:
I hope my posts are helpful, or at least entertaining.
I fear I am too long-winded at times.
As I have mentioned numerous times, I have nobody to talk to, and this is therapy for me, just writing things down, even if I don’t understand them, or if there are no solutions.
Snow, first of all, I really enjoy reading your posts. There’s so much sensitivity and self-awareness in them, and I really appreciate the way you reflect on things. Thank you for replying to me with so much care and for taking the time to give such a thoughtful, detailed response.
A little bit of context:
I’m a woman, and my nickname comes from the TV show Fleabag (which I strongly recommend, by the way).
My glimmer started with a coworker while my dad was terminally ill. He had recently gotten divorced too (his ex-wife’s choice). We used to talk a lot about love, death, and how finite life is, and those conversations felt very deep and almost spiritual to me. Looking back, I actually think this glimmer helped me deal with my dad’s death in a more positive way.
I never disclosed my feelings to LO because he had just gotten divorced, and later he got into a new relationship. But eventually, he disclosed his feelings to me. I basically said, “Okay, then let’s be together.” He said he was already committed and that he couldn’t be the reason I moved away from my family, since we live about 1,000 km apart. He also said he told me because he wanted me to know he had feelings for me too, and that it wasn’t all in my head.
I had a few setbacks trying to stay LC with him because I was already grieving my dad, and LO felt like the only person who really understood what I was going through.
I always knew that eventually he might get engaged and get married. I tried to separate work from my personal feelings. I thought that if I kept some distance and stopped sharing personal stuff, I also wouldn’t have to hear much about his personal life.
I even thought about changing jobs, but I worked really hard to get where I am today, and I don’t think hurting my career because of this would be good for me.
The thing is, in the very few meetings we still have together, he almost always mentions his fiancée somehow. That’s actually how I found out they were engaged. I don’t think he’s doing it to get a reaction from me, but I still found it really insensitive at first. My therapist said maybe he has simply moved on, which is probably true.
Still, it annoys me sometimes. Of course I want him to be happy, but I’m human and I have feelings. I don’t really want to hear about his fiancée, their wedding, their amazing trips, and all that stuff.
That’s when I start thinking he’s shallow and I get pissed off. At the same time, I know he helped me through the worst period of my life, so it’s complicated.
But honestly, I think using some of that irritated energy to detach might actually be helpful. Hopefully, eventually, I’ll get to a point where I just don’t feel much about any of it anymore.
Hi Snow,
„Any level-headed, grounded LO would dislike to be treated for what s/he is NOT (or as walking drug) by their limerents in the altered state of mind or in LE addiction. Imagine our LO have found this site to read our mind?!“
Well, I don’t have that much empathy for my XLO since he wouldn’t have made the effort to look up sites or ask questions or would have recognized himself, and mostly because I had a lot of empathy for him all the time- I know that it didn’t show in my posts, because my posts here were the only place I let my negative emotions go, but I assure you, in real life I showed him very much empathy for all his woes and indecisions and new workplace and health issues and what not. I didn’t do him wrong in real life, only in my thoughts. Most of my anger and resentment was reserved for LwL and my thoughts, because I knew it wasn’t right to show him. Still, I told him when I was hurt by insensitive behavior, which I now think was unnecessary, but when I reread my messages to him, then I see that they were very gentle and apologetic and also empathetic- in hindsight I think I did alright, given the mass of resentment I felt back then.
But I’m so glad this is over! I feel very much for fleabag, it’s such a struggle.
Mila,
“but I assure you, in real life I showed him very much empathy for all his woes and indecisions and new workplace and health issues and what not. I didn’t do him wrong in real life, only in my thoughts. Most of my anger and resentment was reserved for LwL and my thoughts, because I knew it wasn’t right to show him. ”
I totally trust your words! My 🎩 to you, My lady! I’m glad that LwL has served you as an effective LE dumpster. 🫂
My XLO had the address of our site and knew my handle name/emojis. Whether he’s checked here or not, is beyond my knowledge or concern. I TRULY don’t care.
I think you’re the best Limmie to understand what fleabag has been going through…. Not sure if her LO resembles yours.
So glad that you’re over with your XLE, who is also in long-distance now.
Hi Snow, and fleabag,
„My XLO had the address of our site and knew my handle name/emojis. Whether he’s checked here or not, is beyond my knowledge or concern. “
Oh wow, I didn’t know that!
„I think you’re the best Limmie to understand what fleabag has been going through…. Not sure if her LO resembles yours.“
I‘m not sure if I’m not the worst person to advise fleabag though. Because my feelings and reactions resemble hers/(yours, fleabag :)I’m tempted to see it all from my angle and mix up my XLO with hers/yours etc. It might be an altogether different case from mine, and someone who can see things from outside might be a better choice.
I was reminded of my XLO when she/you described him, but now that I read on, I don’t think so. My XLO was quite special in his emotional restriction paired with loyalty, and he would never have disclosed in such a manner, I think.
But I have a feeling that fleabag is quite clear-sighted in her LE and will push through by herself successfully!
Mila, thanks so much for your comment. I really appreciate the thoughtful and caring way you share your experiences.
What really stayed with me was what you said about not letting resentment become another way of staying attached to LO. I totally agree.
For such a long time I missed talking to him, missed our conversations, and kept having setbacks with LC. Now the irritation is at least making me not want to reach out anymore, you know? At this point I actually want to avoid interacting with him as much as possible, and for now that’s helping.
I don’t want to stay angry forever, of course. Hopefully at some point it’ll just become indifference. And maybe later I’ll even be able to look back and feel grateful for the conversations we had and for what that connection meant to me at that time.
Hi fleabag,
I think your anger and resentment is a necessary phase and not without reason, and you recognized immediately that there is grief involved.
I just warned against getting too immersed because me, I felt I was stuck in this phase for much too long, but that might just have been my personal problem that you might not have at all!
I feel for you, and just keep facing forward, you’ll make it out of that jungle.
To Fleabag:
I wanted to add the obvious–that anger and resentment is preferable to the feeling of hopeless longing.
Even though it’s unpleasant, it’s a step forward.
Fleabag,
Go to the Search the Site Box and type on “Grief.”
It will return 2 pages of related blogs.
Excuse my honesty because I’m three sheets to the wind. I miss my old bosses because I wasn’t limerent for them. I miss my old LO because he never gave me the lows that my current LO did. I’m sad because never loved my husband like I should. I’m a horrible person.
To LIAMF:
None of that makes you a horrible person. Please don’t sell yourself short.
Thank you, ND.
Liamf,
Is your LO or your LE which gave you the lows? If without LE, wouldn’t we Limerents feel indifferent for whatever LO say or do?
LO never had/has power to make anyone feel this or that, but we Limerents in LE have made them seem to have power over how we think or feel, it’s upsetting and sad. It’s always HOW we REACT to what they say or do that makes us think or feel as we do. Stoicism applies in any type of relationship.
As I said before, whatever we think or say in waking hours will go to our Unconscious (working 24/7/365), which could powerfully influence/make our core belief about our identity and other personality traits. Can we try to think positively about ourselves, at least privately?
Please do NOT put yourself down. Having LE does not make us a horrible person.
It’s never too late to love your husband more and more, starting at this moment. Life is short, let’s not regret LATER for what we do NOW.
Like what Norma well said, it’s very understandable for all you were/are feeling during LE, “Please don’t sell yourself short”.
Building the Bridge — REO Speedwagon
https://youtu.be/8IPsQWkRb_Q?si=QBAaNH_ZcTN2dE41
I think with this LE, it’s hard for me to come to terms with what I want from LO/LE vs Reality. I was 16 years younger in my previous LE and that LO was single but I was married. Possibly I was a different person back then, so I was never sad about it.
I think at this point, I just long for deep romantic connection that I don’t get from SO and really don’t make the effort to or want to. Obviously, LO wouldn’t be able to provide that, either. No matter how much I wish my LE to be real (and sometimes , I really really wish it to be real). So, I basically feel stuck and it makes me sad. I don’t fantasize and ruminate as much but it’s still there in the back of my mind. Mocking me. Ha, ha!
Hi Liamf,
“I think with this LE, it’s hard for me to come to terms with what I want from LO/LE vs Reality.”
That’s a good question to be repeated in the mind, which knows the answer. Then the repeated question and answer would gradually sink in the Unconscious, and then “the Death of Hope” would firmly register in the F brain and LE fades away. Several partnered limerents in the site have gone this process.
“I was 16 years younger in my previous LE and that LO was single but I was married. Possibly I was a different person back then, so I was never sad about it.”
I assume you’re somewhat middle aged. The subconscious mind of 16 yrs younger believes more chances to encounter new romances/LEs, so less/no sadness with that LE. Now, you (me, too) are walking closer to the sunset, which would trigger sad sentimentality, with or without LE.
“I think at this point, I just long for deep romantic connection that I don’t get from SO and really don’t make the effort to or want to. “
Regardless age, we all long for deep romantic (or/and spiritual) connection with our mate/or another human being. If your SO is so unwilling to make the effort, do you think you could be better off by being yourself? If you’re single, at least you can openly date other available men for a new romantic connection?
“Obviously, LO wouldn’t be able to provide that, either.”
He’s your boss and married, expecting him to provide what you lack and seek is futile, period!
“No matter how much I wish my LE to be real (and sometimes , I really really wish it to be real).”
Of course, your LE is Real, no one’s LE is fake (only LE is “fake” love). Do you mean you wish a mutual LE with your LO? Even if it is, with a SO on both side, what are you going to do? Mutually enjoy it secretly or have two divorces? I think there are cases like that on this site, which didn’t result in peaceful joys or lasting happiness, but constant ups and downs…hot and cold….😕
“So, I basically feel stuck and it makes me sad. I don’t fantasize and ruminate as much but it’s still there in the back of my mind. Mocking me. Ha, ha!”
Imagine you’re captured by a strong LE Wind, and it’s futile to fight with wind. Just hug yourself calmly with your sadness as the wind is dying down — no wind stays forever in the Nature.
This is absolutely nothing to mock in anyone’s LE, but tons of sighs… Please don’t “ha, ha” mocking yourself… Just let sadness 😢 and grief 😿 come out naturally…. and dump them to us, when you feel like it.
🫂
To LIAMF:
It sounds like you’re experiencing a lot of grief and disappointment over your marriage. Obviously the limerent experience is a tantalizing offset to a dreary marriage.
Is there anything at all you can do to improve your current relationship?
Im three sheets to the wind right now (I know imagine that) and ive been dwelling on LO a little too much today. Ive been trying to keep myself busy with chores and things to do around the house but today isn’t a good day for it.
LO wasn’t my direct supervisor at that job at the time, but I still felt an emptiness when she left. You chastise yourself over your supposed disregard for your spouse. I did too, but couldn’t see it at the time. I didn’t know what limerence was when I was going through it with her. I just assumed, like The Main Ingredients song that I was just playing a fool for a younger woman.
But what you say reminds me of the song Holding Her and Loving You by Earl Thomas Connley where he says “I still love her but I love you more”. There is a human quiet in that we can recognize what we are doing with the reluctance to change our behavior. You are not a bad person. And I would venture to say, however much your husband is aware of your behavior, he doesn’t either.
My wife has sat through almost 5 years of LO’s absence. You might find that a lot of people are much more understanding than we give them credit for. Does every spouse have their limit? Sure. But many are willing to work through it and help you reach an impasse.
I told my wife the day I found LwL what limerence was. She already suspected I was having an affair with LO, so in my case, it was a logical move. But I think that you’d be surprised how understanding your husband might be if you shared this with him. While my wife was greatly mistrusting about my explanation, in the end she has stood by me and tried to understand whats going on in my mind. Maybe talk to him. Limerence is such a rocky road because to people on the outside it looks like infatuation or a crush and not the debilitating thing that it really is.
Whelp… that’s that. LO had her last day at work yesterday. I stopped by her desk in the morning before work to drop off some flowers and some chocolate she likes and a card. She was there early too and she said the flowers were beautiful and that I was so sweet and she gave me a quick hug and we talked for a minute and then she gave me another quick hug and then I had to start my day but she looked me in the eye and said “I’ll see you again later today”.
Next thing it’s 5:15 and she’s calling me from her car on the way home, trying to be all nonchalant asking me how my day was and if I had plans for the weekend and whatever, just like it was any normal Friday afternoon. And I was giving pretty listless answers and finally I was like dang, I really wanted to see you one more time this afternoon and get to say goodbye, and she was like it’s fine, we saw each other this morning, I was just really busy today trying to tie everything up. And she was trying to tell me it was fine if we didn’t get to say a real goodbye because we’re gonna see each other again soon, which does not actually seem like it could possibly happen – she has this idea about coming back some day but it’s gonna be like a year from now at minimum before she could come back, and it wouldn’t really make sense for her anyway, so I’m pretty sure we’re never going to actually see each other again and if we do it’s not gonna be anything resembling soon and she knows it too.
So anyway we continued having some dumb conversation about meaningless things and then she had to pick up her daughter and she goes “I’ll see you next week” and I was like “well no, you won’t…” and she was like, “yeah…well, we’ll talk soon” and I said ok have a good weekend and that was that.
I texted her a couple minutes later to say that I was really sad and disappointed about not seeing her to say goodbye before she left but that I’d be ok, and she was like don’t worry we’ll see each other soon and I wrote her something about how I was grateful I’d gotten to know here for the time I did and she replied with that smiling blushing emoji and that was the end of it.
And I’ve been feeling really hurt and upset ever since, not so much about her leaving but about how much she minimized it – all week she’d been calling me every day while avoiding spending any time with me in person. She kept telling me how sad she was to say goodbye to this person or that person, how she got teary saying goodbye to so and so, but never once said anything about being sad to leave me. I told her once that I was really going to miss her a lot, that even if we did keep talking on the phone I’d really miss all the little moments of just seeing each other for a minute in the office or sitting and talking together for a few minutes at her desk – she was like “aww, yeah, I’ll miss you too” in a way that didn’t seem particular sad or even authentic. All week she’d come by and drop off paperwork and smile and leave, never once sat down with me for even a couple minutes. If I hadn’t dropped by her desk when she wasn’t expecting me yesterday, I’m pretty sure she’d have been happy to just leave without seeing me at all.
And it’s like whatever, I know she’s avoidant, avoidant people avoid, maybe she does still really care about me a lot and just can’t let herself feel the emotional weight of leaving so she has to make it seem like it’s nothing and pretend that we’ll see each other again soon cuz that’s easier than acknowledging the truth and having to actually feel those feelings. And I get that, but it still really hurts to be like damn, I don’t matter enough for you to take 5 minutes out of your day to come see me one last time and say goodbye.
And I’m also mad at myself for caring this much and feeling so hurt, cuz for like 6 months or more I’d really gotten to a place where what she did and said really didn’t affect me much at all and I felt free of all those feelings, and then this week it all hit me again and I’ve been upset and ruminating all weekend. But I guess that’s probably to be expected with something as heavy as this goodbye, so hopefully by next week I’ll be back to not really giving a crap about whether I matter to her or not.
A goodbye of a heart matter is hard, let alone with LO in reality!
A LE setback due to a realistic goodbye to LO is definitely expected, please don’t be too hard on yourself.
Anticipate and expect more sadness would follow…. Then they’d feel less painful when arriving.
Hi Lost in Space,
I get you completely. All this time together should be rounded up by a goodbye that acknowledges how much you meant to each other, no? But she was never acting like you were acting in regards to emotions.
Does this mean she has all the emotions and is afraid of the last goodbye showing too much of them, or is she being avoidant like you say, or doesn’t she want to acknowledge the goodbye in a determination to keep the contact as always, or are her emotions simply not what you think they are ? Meaning, is it all not that important to her?
I know these questions so well. The hard thing is, you cannot know. It’s the limerent mind who wants to know for certain if she feels the same, and the best thing is to let go. But I also know that me myself, I do think there‘s still a level outside of limerence where one can hope or expect a certain commitment in someone with whom one had a longtime connection of that kind.
I‘m not limerent any more, but the second last time my XLo was here in town, we missed each other after the last event and couldn’t say goodbye in person, or better said, I looked for him and he just left and sent a voice message. Given our long friendship and a nice week of working together and not knowing when we would meet again , saying goodbye in person would have been adequate for me, and I was once more nonplussed at the difference in our behavior/emotions/expressions.
Still, that was just one more sign that I just should let go of my expectations of this person. I struggled a bit and then told him once again that I’m once again surprised at our differences. I thought he should know. But now I think it’s useless. He‘s always a bit hurt and doesn’t really understand.
In your case, it’s much more understandable to be disappointed. But maybe it helps with letting go of her. You can still have closure and let go of the time properly, you don’t need her reaction for it. She‘s not up for it, for whatever reason, and it would maybe be a kind and generous thing to accept he like that like you would accept it from a child or someone who‘s just not capable of more, but at the same time let go of the idea of soul mates or aligned minds/emotions.
LiS,
Before I say anything else, above all I agree with what you said and what Mila said in reply, that it deserves a proper goodbye and a better one than you got.
I’ll try and rationalise it a bit from what she might have been thinking. She had strong feelings for you. And you got to know that. Always hold on to that, by the way. Not in an obsessive sense but in a nostalgic ‘how nice that I experienced that’ sense.
You two have obviously worked incredibly hard to minimise the mutual LE down to something that no longer went through the hot and cold cycles so much, and was eventually beneficial to you both / ‘the best it could be given all the circumstances’. You’ve given a lot of information on here about her over time. Based on that, I suspect – especially if she’s avoidant and doesn’t like goodbyes – that she feared that a ‘big goodbye’ could dredge all that deeply emotional stuff up again, on one or both sides. And she doesn’t want to leave work with that hanging over her / you both. It is easier to fake herself and say ‘see you next week’, or think more realistically that you’ll continue to talk on the phone. I just think she didn’t want to risk it all bubbling back up. If she felt the danger that it would (on her side), then it is probably the better thing for your long term recovery too that it didn’t?
None of this negates your right to feel disappointed. And none of it negates what existed between you, and the way that was mutually acknowledged.
I hope it stabilises again for you quickly and that you find the right path for the next stage.
LiS,
I agree with Mila. Unfortunately, you’re not going to know why she’s doing what she’s doing.
I hesitate to label her most recent behavior as avoidance. I’m an avoidant myself and have done some reading/research on it. Of course, I can’t get inside your LO’s head … but the fact that you are unavailable would be a situation an avoidant would subconsciously be drawn to. Because there’s a built-in safety net. You’re not totally available.
In terms of saying goodbye, with my last big LO, I was capable saying goodbye. I chose not to. There was nothing left to talk about at that point. It was time to move on. I don’t know what your LO is thinking, obviously. But I think people misunderstand avoidants and attribute avoidance to a lot of behavior that may not fit the definition.
I would say … and her behavior is confusing … this is as much as she’s willing to do/give you. She’s putting up some boundaries. Like a friend you want to hang out with once a week but she wants to hang out once a month.
To Lost In Space:
Forgive me for butting in because I don’t know your whole story.
LO is not confronting the truth of your relationship and that feels painful, isn’t that so? Perhaps she deliberately avoided you at the end of the day and then downplayed it with her unrealistic text messages about seeing you soon, which is not being honest.
It sounds like you just wanted an honest goodbye and didn’t get one.
Limerent Objects don’t give us what we want or need, and we somehow have to make peace with that.
I agree with the others, that given the kind of friendship this was, on top of all the emotional turns it took over time, that this goodbye was weak. You probably never were really looking forward to this day because you knew it would hurt when it would happen. I would say be grateful she didn’t make it any harder than it had to be, but thats probably not what you want to think about right now. As limerents we’re always wanting the absolute best outcome. You probably dreamed up a thousand scenarios in your head of what you thought this day would look like and she chose the one that never crossed your mind once. Typical off-script LO behavior. Yet in a way, perhaps it’s for the better.
I would agree she simply didn’t have the emotional capacity to draw things out. Saying things like she’ll see you again later I think is her way of blocking closure. At work I find myself telling Lady Friends I’ll come by and visit them later or txt them and a lot of times I don’t. It just sounds good to say it because it’s a way I want them to know I still want to talk to them again and lets them know I want to stay in touch indefinitely. If not now, then again at some point. I find it easier on my emotional self if I don’t put too much effort in to things, because I usually get let down when I do. Plus it also shows them I’m not pedastalizing.
MJ,
“Typical off-script LO behavior.”
Yes. I was going to add this to my first post to LiS and didn’t get back to it. Limerents forget that LOs are wildcards. Real wildcards. They zag when we think we’re going to zig. We cannot accurately asses their behavior and who they are through the haze of limerence. Even if they’ve behaved a certain way for a long time … watch out … their behavior could change at any minute. Off the top of my head, I’ve experienced it with my last two LOs.
” Saying things like she’ll see you again later I think is her way of blocking closure. At work I find myself telling Lady Friends I’ll come by and visit them later or txt them and a lot of times I don’t. It just sounds good to say it because it’s a way I want them to know I still want to talk to them again and lets them know I want to stay in touch indefinitely.”
I can’t speak for your work babes … but as a woman, when a guy says this kind of thing, it comes across as a weak toss-out. And I know I have about a 90% chance he isn’t coming back. My last big LO would say stuff like that. He had a real flaky side.
I think he said stuff like that to keep the door open and it felt good in the moment for him — attention! from women! — but it came across as extremely disingenuous to me.
“Even if they’ve behaved a certain way for a long time … watch out … their behavior could change at any minute.”
Marcia
I think this goes back to the expectations thing. Where we’re thinking/dreaming up all this positive hope, not thinking of any negative outcome and then bam, there it is..
“I think he said stuff like that to keep the door open and it felt good in the moment for him — attention! from women! — but it came across as extremely disingenuous to me.”
I think this only applies when the person we really like doesn’t reciprocate in the way we hope they will. If they’re not as invested, then telling them we’ll talk, txt or see them later won’t matter much either way. This is pretty much how it is with Lady Friends lately. Ain’t nobody knocking my door down to get to the goods. I have a smorgasbord of friendships. In which ALL of them are basically attached to somebody else. I may actually like some of them way more than I should but I’ve learned to accept mild indifference from just about all of them. Because to keep ramping up high hope is exhausting as f—!
At least for me it is. I can go into something with the greatest of intent, have no ill-intentions at all and it doesn’t matter. Having an intent to just stay a friend should be total off limits for me too because again, if I wanted another friend, I’d get another cat. (Vile little creatures 🤬)
What you replied to me a few days ago holds a lot of water. If they want to get a hold of you, they will.
9 times out of 10, I’m usually the one reaching out first. I just don’t have it in me anymore.
MJ,
“I think this goes back to the expectations thing. Where we’re thinking/dreaming up all this positive hope, not thinking of any negative outcome and then bam, there it is…”
Well, with my last big LO … he had a pattern of behavior with me for years. And then it changed. I didn’t see it coming.
“I think this only applies when the person we really like doesn’t reciprocate in the way we hope they will. If they’re not as invested, then telling them we’ll talk, txt or see them later won’t matter much either way. ”
That’s true.
“Ain’t nobody knocking my door down to get to the goods.”
That’s because you’re approaching/asking out/”befriending” women who aren’t interested.
If you keep putting energy into people who aren’t giving you much back, you’ll get the same result.
Self-esteem is investing in people who are investing in you. Seems self-evident, but it’s taken me a million years to figure that out. It should irritate you that LF, for example, is giving you crumbs. Enough that you don’t even want to bother with her at all. Or any of these broads.
“What you replied to me a few days ago holds a lot of water. If they want to get a hold of you, they will.
9 times out of 10, I’m usually the one reaching out first. I just don’t have it in me anymore.”
You are the world’s most LITERAL person. 🙂
It’s a phrase that applies to everything. If they wanted to call, if they wanted to go out with you, if they wanted to disclose, if they wanted to hook up, if they wanted to text and see how you’re doing … (pick any action) … they would. If they’re not doing it, they don’t want to.
“If you keep putting energy into people who aren’t giving you much back, you’ll get the same result.
Self-esteem is investing in people who are investing in you. Seems self-evident, but it’s taken me a million years to figure that out.”
Marcia
It’s a gamble. I meet someone and it starts out good, but somehow I pick the ones who are taken. It’s not a matter of them not being invested. Obviously they can’t be and aren’t going to be.
“It should irritate you that LF, for example, is giving you crumbs. Enough that you don’t even want to bother with her at all. Or any of these broads.”
She’s giving me crumbs but she’s well taken now too, so crumbs are all I’m allowed. She told me to stay in my lane. Yes it bothers me. Especially when I catch her still staring at me. It’s such a mindf—! Like girl, what are freaking looking at?
I feel it has to be the male energy she likes. It irritates me I’m so enamored when she draws me back in. Then like last week, I ignored her every night. Didn’t even say hello, whats up? or f— off! All because I get mad at myself for thinking anything. It’s never going anywhere and I know this, so what is the point? Like LE mentioned to ND. What am I getting out of this?
Not one damn thing. Just pointless ruminating and stress. She doesn’t like me like that. So why the staring game? Validation?
Wtf? She’s taken.
“You are the world’s most LITERAL person. 🙂
It’s a phrase that applies to everything.”
I think I read something in one of your exchanges with LaR a few nights ago. Or maybe he was replying to Mila.. Something about
people having issues simply onboarding one new friend and the entanglements that come with it. I get this. It’s pick and choose who we want that to be. For whatever reason, I feel like that’s how it is for a lot of the ladies I meet. They’re just taken or simply not ready for one more new person. Never mind how I never seem to notice this when I first see or meet them. (That sneaky little LO 😂)
I have guy friends that I know want to hang out with me, but I just don’t have the time. Nor do I care to. Dad has had a terrible last few weeks and I got into another tiff with my Daughter about stuff again. My emotional energy towards giving 2 $#!+$ about any of these guy friends is non-existent. I don’t want to hang out, or drink, or talk smack about others, or the ladies or dumb $#!+. I don’t have the time. I don’t even have time to cut my own grass. Let alone listen to their stories. Their seemingly better or more pathetic lives than I lead. Or their issues because the one guy wants to just drink all his problems away with me and the other one just wants to mooch off me and have me send him money all the time. All because his lazy a$$ doesn’t want to work. I mean, wtf? Not only can I not seem to attract good quality girl friends, I can’t even have good quality guy friends either. It’s unreal. Unfreaking-real. 😑
People who give up and decide to go live like a hermit and off the grid are on to something. Perhaps I need to go join up with them. It really doesn’t sound too half bad at this point.
MJ,
” It’s not a matter of them not being invested. Obviously they can’t be and aren’t going to be.”
Um … MJ, you are rewriting history. LF was available when you started talking. So was the woman with the kid who you asked to dinner and to church.
I cannot stress this enough and we’ve gone over and over and over this … if they won’t meet up with you on a date, they aren’t interested.
And you ask them out WITHIN ABOUT A WEEK of meeting them. If they won’t go out with you … THAT’S WHEN YOU MOVE ON. Right then and there. Yes, I’m shouting! We’ve gone over this. This is the way to avoid wasting your time. You’ll know WITHIN ABOUT A WEEK. It’s that simple. And if you hover around (how long have you been hovering with LF?! THREE years? You’re still trying to read the tea leaves with this woman!) … it’s on you. You’re doing that to yourself.
Men do this “LF flim flam stuff” with women, too. Last year, I matched with this guy on a site. We messaged on the site for a few days and then made plans to meet up about 4 or so days later. I gave him my cell phone number. We texted that night a bit. Everything seemed to be going well. Things were moving at a good pace. He was making some effort. We had plans. Perfect. Two days later, I realized I needed to reschedule and texted him with a suggested day (about two days after our initial day to meet up). I was giving him plenty of notice. He had picked a place to meet that was closer to me but I offered to meet up closer to him this time because I was rescheduling. I was trying to show that I was serious about rescheduling. He responded something like, “Yeah, we can reschedule.” I responded: where and what time. TWO DAYS later … he responded. But with only a time to meet up! Just a time. Then … crickets. The day of the date arrives … I still didn’t know where we’re meeting … and then he cancels last minute.
I didn’t respond. There was nothing to respond to. This is what I’m talking about. MOVE ON when someone gives you flim flam. What I suspect he was doing was keeping me on hold until he confirmed with someone else and when she verified she could meet up, he canceled on me. He said he wanted to reschedule, but was there a point to even try? He kept me waiting for days and he also had made no effort to keep in contact with me after the initial texting. He wasn’t that interested. Right then … it was time to move on. And this whole interaction … from matching to his canceling … took about a week and a half. I had my answer that quickly. Granted, moving on was easy to do with him. I wasn’t that invested, but … this is the behavior you (and I!) need to exhibit with all potentials. The standards don’t change just because you really like someone.
“She’s giving me crumbs but she’s well taken now too, so crumbs are all I’m allowed. ”
So move on!
“Something about people having issues simply onboarding one new friend and the entanglements that come with it.”
Now you’re talking about friendship, which is different.
” For whatever reason, I feel like that’s how it is for a lot of the ladies I meet. They’re just taken or simply not ready for one more new person. ”
LF was ready when her boyfriend showed up and asked her out.
“I have guy friends that I know want to hang out with me, but I just don’t have the time. Nor do I care to.”
There’s your answer. You don’t want to put any energy or time into the friendships. Friendship, like any relationship, take effort.
It’s up to you if you want to put effort into them. The friends you wrote about don’t sound like good friends. And, yes, making friends — real friends — is difficult in adulthood. But they don’t fall into your lap. You have to make the effort to meet them, to cultivate the friendship. It’s trial and error. It’s like dating.
” You probably dreamed up a thousand scenarios in your head of what you thought this day would look like and she chose the one that never crossed your mind once”
The funny thing is that I’d thought about this scenario many times before. In fact, pretty much any time in the past couple of years, if someone had asked me to put money on the most likely outcome, I’d have picked the one where she left without saying goodbye. What happened last week was actually the good version of what I imagined would happen – the bad version involved her not even calling me and instead just sending a text saying something like “hey, thanks for everything, I really appreciate you. I’m sure you understand it wouldn’t be appropriate for us to keep talking, but don’t be sad, I’ll always think well of you. Have a great rest of your life !” and then never communicating with me again. So this version where she blew off the goodbye visit but I did get to see her that morning and we had a nice little interaction with some smiles and a couple of hugs, and where she did call me after work and act friendly towards me and indicate that she wanted us to keep talking, that was better than the worst versions I’d had in my head previously.
But what happened was that in the past week, I let my expectations get out of line with what experience had taught me – partly it was her acting extra friendly and communicative over the past couple weeks, and probably partly my own wishful thinking. But I let myself start imagining a more meaningful goodbye with lots of emotion and sweet words and warm hugs, and that was my mistake and that’s what lead to me getting hurt.
I can understand that but to me, more meaningful goodbyes would seem harder to deal with emotionally for both of you. I don’t think it means she thinks any less of you. Of course I’ve never lived in your story or had anything that ever resembled it, so I may not know what I’m talking about.
Just wishing the best for you now and your family.
Take care friend..
LiS,
It’s smart of you to pre-envision all possible scenarios of the farewell with LO (very Stoic) ; and the outcome is better than the worst — a good news!
The bad news is that you let your “expectations get out of line” in the last couple of weeks, ergo your current hurt. Expectation is Mother of all sorts of disappointments and hurts.
Other people and situations are more than often unpredictable – a default of human existence, with or without reasons; occasionally we can’t even expect (but hope) what ourselves would do. None of us is an old-fashioned robot.
I’d take some time to quietly grieve, but not dwell on what is already over realistically. LO is physically gone, LE had cooled down a great deal for the past 6 months (a new LE is on the horizon), what’s the point to mull over any aspect of it, when you have a great job and a good family to attend?
Still, please be prepared that relapsed grief/anger/depression could take place (maybe not) for a while, because it takes time for the unconscious, F brain, to totally absorb the reality and finally let go.
A good luck!
Thank you so much to everyone who wrote back to me this weekend. It feels really good to be understood. It really does. I hate how I’m feeling right now – I’m so sad and so hurt and so angry. Like how hard would it have been for her to just stop by my office for 5 freaking minutes? Or if she didn’t feel comfortable being alone with me, she could have asked me if I could come up to her desk for a few minutes to say goodbye with other people around. A few minutes conversation and a hug and maybe a little card with some nice words in it, that’s all it would have taken for her to make me feel ok about the goodbye, but apparently she didn’t care enough about me to even do that. Like, after everything over all these years, how could she not want to see me one last time? She’d rather just disappear and maybe never see my face again? And then try to pretend like it was nothing. When she called me at 5:15 and I asked if she was still in the building even though I knew in my heart she wasn’t, and she said “no sorry I didn’t have time but it’s ok, it doesn’t matter…” I wanted to howl no no no no no no no!!! How could you care about me so little, how can I mean nothing to you? But I mostly kept my emotions in check, cuz whatever, it didn’t matter at that point and why ruin her day too. But damn.
And I hate that my last memory of her is her looking me in the eye and lying – “I’ll see you again later today”… but I guess it’s fitting because she lied about that stuff all the time. I learned to translate over the years – “I’ll call you tomorrow” means “Maybe I’ll call you tomorrow or maybe next week or maybe not talk to you for a month”, and “we’re just friends, sometimes we talk and sometimes we don’t and that’s fine” means “we talk when I want to and we don’t talk when I don’t want to”, and “I’ll see you again later today” means “I have no intention of seeing you again but it feels harsh to say it so I’d rather just lie to you”. So then when she says “don’t worry, we’ll see each other again soon” how am I supposed to believe that? Or even when she says “it’s really important to me that we stay friends, I’m going to make a point of calling you at least once a week or more so we stay connected”… I mean, maybe… or maybe she’ll wake up tomorrow deciding she doesn’t ever want to talk to me again either and will just completely erase me like I never even existed to her.
And it sucks because I love her so much and I also hate her so much and right now I want to just be totally indifferent to her and not care and not hurt. And one part of me wants to call her tomorrow and pick a fight with her, and another part of me wants to call her this week and hear all about her first week at her new job and talk and share and laugh like we always do, and yet another part of me wants to just block her number and never hear from her again. And I also know that it doesn’t actually matter at all, that even if she had come to say goodbye it wouldn’t change anything, we’d still never see each other anymore, but at least I’d feel like she cared.
Ok. Deep breath…
Resentments suck. They don’t do anyone any good. Let’s try something different. Let’s try to think of 3 positive things.
1) She worked her ass off all week last week and especially on the last day. Apparently her supervisor had to tell her to leave at 5:05 because she wanted to stay and work for free to tie up every single little loose end. She’s always been the hardest worker in her office – most of the other folks there just kinda coast, but she’s always worked super hard to take care of everything. It’s actually funny how as a coworker she’s probably the most diligent, reliable person I know. I think it’s always been important to her to take care of me work-wise and never let me down, and she’s been really really good to work with and has done a lot to make my life easier at work. She was stressing a lot the past couple weeks about who was going to take care of our team after she left, and it was really important to her to get everything in order as much as humanly possible. And so maybe in that moment, it really did seem more important for her to spend all day Friday making everything perfect for me at work than it did to spent a little time with me – her expressive love language is definitely acts of service. And on Friday after I’d texted her saying how sad and disappointed I felt to not see her, I texted her again to tell her I really appreciated how hard she’d worked to take care of everything before she left, and that I knew that was a way she shows that she cares – she responded with a smiley face and a “thank you!!!”
2) I think she knew how sad I felt when we were talking on her drive home, after I’d said how bad it felt to not get to say goodbye and she said it was fine cuz we’d see each other again soon. I think in her own way she was trying to make me feel better – she was like “the flowers you got me are really nice, thank you so much. And I’m eating those chocolates right now as I drive home” and there was like this childlike hopefulness in her voice, it felt like she was hoping that by saying nice things on the phone she could make up for hurting me and make me feel better. I think it’s most likely that she really just couldn’t access her emotions at that time, or maybe more likely she was afraid that if she let her emotions out even a little bit, she wouldn’t be able to control them at all – I know that she actually feels things really deeply, often painfully so, and so she tries to avoid feeling difficult emotions by staying busy, minimizing, acting nonchalant, burying herself in work, etc. and does whatever she can to try to feel like she’s in control of herself and her emotions.
3) We actually had a really nice conversation on the phone earlier in the week; we talked for a good long time on Wednesday and she was telling me about all sorts of things she’d been doing with her husband and kids and some fun little weekend adventures they’d been having, and how good her kids were doing, and how she was feeling nervous but excited about starting her new job and was proud of herself for not settling for being a clerk her whole career and challenging herself to become an RN, and how she was excited to keep learning more and more and keep growing. And I got this really nice feeling listening to her and reflecting. A few years ago she’d been so broken and damaged and hurt and miserable, and now she was talking and I realized… She’s happy. She’s thriving. She’s healing. And I told her that – how I was so happy to know that she was doing so well and seemed genuinely happy. And she told me “it’s all because of you! I definitely wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for you. You’re a really awesome guy”. And that felt really good then, and it feels good now too, in fact I’m a little teary eyed just thinking about it, and I definitely don’t feel so hurt and upset anymore.
Mila – I was thinking about the movie Once and how it ends. They make the beautiful demo tape together and then he’s going off to London for his career and she’s going to reunite with her estranged husband, and they’re going to meet up one last time before that, but then she stands him up and doesn’t show, I guess she just couldn’t for whatever reasons. And the last thing he does before leaving is buys her a piano and has it delivered to her so she can make music and do what she loves. And even though he’s far off in another city and she’s playing the piano for her husband instead of for him, he still feels happy knowing that she’s making music. And so in my case, yeah she stood me up for that last goodbye for whatever reasons, but I always get to know that I gave her the support she needed to get her nursing degree and change the rest of her life, and more than that I get to know I helped her to heal and start to see herself as someone who is worthy of care and devotion and love (even if that’s still a work in progress). And so I guess I can live with that, regardless of what happens next.
LiS,
“A few years ago she’d been so broken and damaged and hurt and miserable, and now she was talking and I realized… She’s happy. She’s thriving. She’s healing”
Honestly … the best thing to happen here is what happened. She’s left the job, she’s happy. You need to let each other go. It’s time. There’s nothing to be gained from maintaining communication with each other. Let her plug back into her life and you can plug back into yours.
Hi Marcia,
You’re exactly right, and up until a couple of weeks ago I had reached that place where I was ready to let go and be ok with it. I’d have felt sad regardless – because for better or worse she has been a meaningful person in my life for years and I do still have a lot of really positive feelings for her – but I would have been ok. But then the last couple weeks when the departure date became real and immediate, I started to flip back into the “maintain connection at all cost” mode, and I think to some extent she did too – she called me more in the last 2 weeks than she had in the 2 months prior to that. But I still think I could have been ok with the end if the end had been more satisfactory – a meaningful conversation, a warm hug, some tears in our eyes, a last lingering look and then gone… that would have felt bittersweet but not hurtful. But to feel like she was happy to leave without feeling any need to even see me one last time, regardless of her actual motivations, that just hurt a lot – it made me feel like I didn’t really matter to her at all, made me feel like I was the only one of us who actually cared. And that cut me pretty deep and tainted what otherwise could have been a memory I might actually look back on fondly someday.
But it is what it is, she did what she did, and I just have to accept it and move on and hopefully stop thinking about it sooner rather than later because thinking about it really sucks.
LiS,
“I learned to translate over the years – “I’ll call you tomorrow” means “Maybe I’ll call you tomorrow or maybe next week or maybe not talk to you for a month”, and “we’re just friends, sometimes we talk and sometimes we don’t and that’s fine” means “we talk when I want to and we don’t talk when I don’t want to”, and “I’ll see you again later today” means “I have no intention of seeing you again but it feels harsh to say it so I’d rather just lie to you”.”
I reread this. I had forgotten (and now I’m remembering your previous posts — you haven’t posted on here in a while), how manipulative and selfish she is. So her behavior on her last day makes sense. It’s a pattern of hot-and-cold. It’s what she does.
I don’t understand why you’re not angry at her. And, frankly, why you’re not angry at yourself for putting up with this.
I’m going to be frank with you … you need to get mad! I would think the most satisfying thing that could happen is that she reaches out at some point in the future (and she will) … and you DON’T RESPOND. As in: ever again. I don’t know what she’s getting out of your interactions … support? Safety? a kind of controlling satisfaction knowing you’ll always be there ?… but she’s not a real friend. She’s the definition of a dodgy LO.
Hi LiS,
„Mila – I was thinking about the movie Once and how it ends. They make the beautiful demo tape together and then he’s going off to London for his career and she’s going to reunite with her estranged husband, and they’re going to meet up one last time before that, but then she stands him up and doesn’t show, I guess she just couldn’t for whatever reasons.“
Funny, I have it a bit different in my memory. I watched it only once and maybe forgot the exact scene. I remember that he proposed to spend the last night together and she said something about the lines that she doesn’t think it’s a good idea because it would lead to something (? forgot the exact word, but she meant surely some sort of physical moments). Then she still kind of agreed and then she stood him up. For me it was clear that she wanted to avoid the temptation and the betrayal.
But in essence you are right about the comparison- in the big picture you did the best for your LO and helped her to a new life, and that’s above all goodbyes.
Other posters replied and there are so many interpretations why she would behave like that.
For me, it sounds like her old pattern.
She’s always been like that, and her reasons were always a bit unclear, and now she repeated this pattern, only on a grander scale.
I don’t want to guess why she does it, if she was afraid of her and your emotions, if she pushed it all away out of fear of pain, if she wanted yo downplay it for that reason, or if she’s a bit shallow, took what she could get from you and held back herself, or gave a bit back when it suited her.
I can’t know it really.
I believe a bit in the power of a narrative for healing- maybe you should just choose the angle that suits you best. Because maybe it’s all and none, maybe a bit of all interpretations, and since you don’t know the truth, you can choose whatever angle feels best and helps you to get closure. To be sure, I don’t mean choose the narrative that helps you go on in your limerent feelings.
What you describe in another post- how you were quite ok with it all but then it got more intense in the last weeks- reminds me of my last limerence. I wouldn’t have got limerent for my XLO if there wouldn’t have been his leaving in the future. The prospect of a goodbye fuels feelings, I guess.
Hi,
English is not my native language so sorry in advance if I don’t express myself well.
I am not looking for solutions, I just want to share my situation.
The situation addresses several topics. And I am curious about anything that might come to mind for you.
So here it is. My boyfriend is not jealous at all. I don’t like ettiquettes but to put it simply, I’m polyamourous. I’m intermittently limerent for a friend of his, intermittently because I don’t see him often so sometimes I forget to be limerent ! hi hi !
Let’s call this friend Naruto. He’s part of a group of friends with whom me and my boyfriend did a lot of parties together for years. This may sound weird but despite these many parties, I’ve never spoken to Naruto one-on-one for more than a few seconds. I was more concentrated on other people. And even if I wasn’t limerent for him, the fact that we both are shy may have played a role. I feel like we hardly know each other.
There were two parties last fall were I felt like Naruto was interested in me. At these parties, I became interested in him. After that, my boyfriend and I offered him and the group several parties out. But he only came once. That time, I was very shy, I tried to talk to him but nothing came out. That time, he told my boyfriend he would be more often available from then on. But I feel like he’s still not very available.
I don’t know if he’s less coming to parties since I like him or if I have a biased view because I miss seeing him.
My boyfriend always warns me about the negative aspects of things. He told me it could make people feel uncomfortable if I talked to Naruto one-on-one at parties. That discouraged me.
My boyfriend also told me it would seem weird if I suggested Naruto meeting one-on-one, given that I’d never really spoken to him one-on-one at parties.
I would like to know him better to see if we could match or not.
In the meantime, I have to deal with intermittent limerence…
I feel like this kind of situation has never been brought up in the Smitten book: I have to deal with my limerence while getting to know my OL better to see if I want to engage in a romantic relationship. I can’t take a decision right now wether fighting the limerence or not. Are there any books that deal with this subject?
I’m usually enterprising, I tell quickly to men that I like them and the limerence ends. But I think I’ve changed and I now think it’s better to learn to know each other first.
Something else is difficult: I carry the trauma of being bullied at school over my romantic feelings. So telling my feelings to someone who is part of a same group makes me scared. I’m not only afraid of my OL’s reaction but also about the group’s reaction. Although I think they are openminded and kind.
Hi m,
Would your openminded boyfriend be okay if he knows you actually romantically get closer to (date) your LO (or OL)?
Were you in LE with your boyfriend before you got together?
Being polygamous, can you fall in LE with several LOs at the same time? Is your boyfriend also polygamous?
To m:
Since you say you are polyamorous, is your goal to stay with your boyfriend, but also to hook up with others?
If m (or any polygamies) is ABLE to hook up with several LOs and is allowed by her boyfriend/SO, her life could be peachy 🍑 to the end of time, couldn’t it?!
Then DrL’s book “Smitten” is not needed, right? 😁
Hi TM !
I love how you express yourself. I didn’t know the word peachy ! Love it ! Love this expression: “Peachy to the end of time” ! ^^
I must say the book is far from useless for me.
A friend told me she wouldn’t have gotten together with her boyfriend if he hadn’t taken his time wooing her. I think I may have made flee some men by going to fast in the past. And I’ve also got into toxic relationships going to fast.
The book Smitten seems to give only two options: go for it or don’t go for it. But I think it forgets the middle option: go get it gently. But I can still use it because it flirts with the middle option.
It is the most difficult option, it is described as an impossible option. But I’d love for this option to be addressed. I would love to learn how to tame the beast. When people have eating addiction, they can’t just stop eating so they have to learn how to tame the beast. Why couldn’t we do this with LO addiction?
Hi m,
“I love how you express yourself. I didn’t know the word peachy ! Love it ! Love this expression: “Peachy to the end of time” ! ^^”
Thank you. I’m also non-native English speaker, so tend to freely throw English words randomly, with little/no cliches/rules, but my own envisions.
“I must say the book is far from useless for me.
A friend told me she wouldn’t have gotten together with her boyfriend if he hadn’t taken his time wooing her. “
You’re saying that despite LE, her boyfriend has taken time to woo your friend thus able to get into a steady relationship with her?
“I think I may have made flee some men by going to fast in the past. And I’ve also got into toxic relationships going to fast.”
It sounds like your blind, rushing LE made those failures in your past romantic encounters; not the fault of your logical mind.
“The book Smitten seems to give only two options: go for it or don’t go for it. But I think it forgets the middle option: go get it gently. But I can still use it because it flirts with the middle option.”
I haven’t finished the book, thank you for your summarization here. I agree that in general, matters don’t fall either black or white, there is always a middle ground, a gray area. The LE middle ground sounds like applying to two available parties: Lim to Lim, or Lim to non-Lim.
You’re saying it’s possible to develop a LE based relationship, but not too fast at the peak of LE, but when LE comes down somewhat? By doing this, both parties’ heads cool down somewhat thus are able to get to know each other more realistically, instead of more imaginatively, with too much rosy/fire colors?
“It is the most difficult option, it is described as an impossible option.”
I think the scientific basis here is that the altered state of the mind in LE beats our logical tinking (from two regions of the brain). It seems that our mind can’t be in both states Equally, one takes over the other for the time being. But when LE is faded, our awakened logical mind loses its “romantic interests” in the same LO. How sad! 😢
“But I’d love for this option to be addressed. I would love to learn how to tame the beast.”
In theory, I believe it’s possible. After coming out of my XLE and strengthening the Stoic practice, I find I can balance my desires and logical thinking/disciplines much better than before. I go to bed with Stoic quotes in my mind and then sleep soundly.
“When people have eating addiction, they can’t just stop eating so they have to learn how to tame the beast. Why couldn’t we do this with LO addiction?”
I think it’s possible to tame any mental beast (besides a total lunacy). But being polygamous, how severe was your addiction in your previous LEs? Less or more craving than a monogamous LE addiction?
I’m unable to comprehend a polygamous mind… but I’m very curious about it. (My monogamous LO#5 was deeply hurt by a polygamous partner, so they parted after one-year. )
yes ! 😀
Hi Norma Desmond,
yes ! 😀
To m:
You are incredibly lucky to have such a tolerant boyfriend.
I can’t even wrap my head around that.
Hi ❄️ !
Would your openminded boyfriend be okay if he knows you actually romantically get closer to (date) your LO (or OL)?
My boyfriend is totally okay with me having another boyfriend 🙂
Were you in LE with your boyfriend before you got together?
Yes ! And I still am in LE with him even though it is less intense. We’ve been together for 8 years.
Being polygamous, can you fall in LE with several LOs at the same time?
I asked myself the same question. And yes, I think I can be limerent for several men at a time.
Is your boyfriend also polygamous?
No, he’s monogamous. How lucky am I !? ^^
My goodness, how lucky YOU are! Your boyfriend is a Semi-God!
Where do you live? By any chance, do you lend him out (when you hang out with other LOs?” 🤔
To Miss Snow:
Can I get in line behind you?
Hi hi ! Thanks for your suggestions but he is strictly monogamous and very busy campaigning for organizations dedicated to saving the planet ! ^^
To m:
Your boyfriend sounds like a keeper! I hope you know how lucky you are.
Norma Desmond, I’ve had my boyfriend pass the living with limerence test to know if people are limerent or not. Him being a very calm and grounded person, I’d never thought he’d answer yes to almost all the questions ! This means he’s still limerent after an 8 year relationship and not suffering about it, which suprised me !
❄️, it’s funny you said he’s a semi-god because I often say that ! hi hi !
Something has been bothering me, and it seems the only way I can get it off my mind is to talk about it. As I have mentioned previously, one of my girlfriends is MIA, and I already know that the other one would say, “You’re overthinking it, Norma!” And she’s probably right.
But simply being told that I am overthinking something doesn’t seem to help me process it.
I am mulling over my friendship with LO. Not the limerence, but the actual friendship. What is really there when I push my fantasies aside.
Obviously LO is a horrible LO, but is he a decent friend? Well, not really.
Now, I think my problem is that I am analyzing the friendship through the lens of limerence and perhaps expecting too much?
Something happened recently during one of our get-togethers that really bothered me. LO and I have known each other for over three years and we have both shared intimate details of our lives with each other. We have both broken down in tears describing some of the most painful things that have happened to us.
My life changed drastically in 2002 when my ex-husband unexpectedly divorced me. I am severely disabled and cannot work. He knows this. He makes very good money. I was not prepared for him to claim that there was nothing wrong with my health and that I could get a full-time job. The next several years were consumed with proving my disability and securing enough alimony so that I could go on living. My disability is very difficult to prove because I look fine. If I had a dollar for every time I was accused of faking, I wouldn’t need alimony.
I don’t even have the words to describe what this felt like. I couldn’t eat for two years and my weight dropped to 89 pounds.
Happily, I was successful in my court battle and I am still managing okay almost 25 years later. My ex has retired and the alimony has been reduced, but I have now reached an age where I was able to get a reverse mortgage to offset the short-fall in alimony.
I have told all these stories to LO numerous times. My whole personality changed as a result of the divorce and I will never be the person I was before.
LO and I discuss financial matters quite a bit, since he has a horrendous amount of debt to the IRS due to a book-keeping error many years ago. His tax liability is something that is always at the forefront of his mind because it is a huge burden and very stressful. I listen carefully, and try to keep up. I don’t understand all of it, but I get the gist.
When I recently brought up something about my finances, he actually said, “I didn’t know you got alimony.”
I know that LO has a poor memory, but I didn’t know it was THAT bad. I still remember his deceased dog’s birthday, FFS. I text him every year on the date to tell him I am thinking of his dear furry friend.
I was horrified that LO didn’t remember such a basic fact about my life which I have discussed on numerous occasions. Obviously, this is a plus if you consider that it makes the limerence decrease. But it’s a huge minus in other ways, and I wonder if LO remembers anything I have told him at all?
Then I think, what if LO and I were just platonic friends? Would it bother me that he couldn’t remember such a basic fact about my life? I think it would still bother me.
Maybe it’s just how some people are, but I find it incomprehensible.
ND,
If you know all this, my recommendation is you find what the payoff is for you.
There has to be one. What is it? There’s always a reason behind why we try to convince someone to care when they don’t. (There’s a ton of clinical literature on that topic.)
You’ve turned this into a second career. Trust me, I know how that works.
ND,
LE wrote: “If you know all this, my recommendation is you find what the payoff is for you. There has to be one. What is it?”
This is good advice from LE. You know who your LO is by now. You’ve known him for 3 years. There’s no new news about his behavior. You’ve written previous posts about him not listening.
What are you getting out of this? That may be the key. Figuring that out.
To Marcia and L.E.:
Thank you so much for the replies.
All I can say is that I feel alive when I am with LO. I want his attention and his approval. I know that sounds pathetic.
Even so, when he brings up his beloved Terrier, I feel like snapping, “I didn’t know you had a dog!!”
Norma,
“All I can say is that I feel alive when I am with LO. I want his attention and his approval.”
You just put into two sentences the limerent contradiction.
I get wanting to feel alive. I’m a chemistry junkie myself. 🙂 And I won’t say something stupid and obvious like: You’re outsourcing your feeling of aliveness to him. Well, duh. I’m sure you know that.
The problem is that it’s very difficult to replicate the feeling of limerent-level aliveness.
People will tell you to plug back into your relationships. Go out and have a nice afternoon with a friend. And while that gives you a feeling of connection, it does not provide “aliveness.”
Or set some goals for yourself. And while, once accomplished, the goals give you a feeling of achievement, it’s not “aliveness.”
Maybe something like jumping out of a plane. Or getting up at an open mic night and trying to do stand-up comedy. I’m serious. Something that really rips you completely out of your comfort zone. Gets that heart pumping with adrenaline. 🙂 That might provide some aliveness.
But you want more than aliveness, which goes back to the two sentences from your post. No limerent just wants the high. You want your LO to validate you and prioritize you and value you (all limerents do) … and he’s not going to be able to do that. So he can provide the high, but it’s empty.
“Even so, when he brings up his beloved Terrier, I feel like snapping, “I didn’t know you had a dog!!””
I doubt he would even get that. Or that it would hurt him. I’m not sure LOs are actually human … prick them, and do they bleed? 😉
To Marcia:
I get the idea of jumping out of a plane. My divorce lawyer jokingly suggested I go bungee-jumping.
All I can say that, is with severe Myalgic Encephalomyelitis, I wouldn’t be able to handle anything remotely that stressful. I wouldn’t even be able to handle a trampoline.
I actually get exhausted just spending 90 minutes with LO. And that’s just sitting. I have to focus intently to keep up with him mentally.
I haven’t had a date since my divorce, and I have not looked for a partner. The LE came out of left field and was unwelcome.
However, LO makes me feel like I’m twelve, and there is an appeal there. When he smiles at me, I feel like a million bucks.
Thank you for your thoughts.
The comedy club requires no physicality. Other than standing up there for … idk … 5 minutes ?
“However, LO makes me feel like I’m twelve, and there is an appeal there. When he smiles at me, I feel like a million bucks.”
You’re glossing over the fact that your posts about him detail all his personality shortcomings and how he has disappointed you.
And since you won’t go LC or NC, all you can do is ride the aliveness while accepting he’s a lousy friend.
WHEN is he moving???
To Marcia:
I am in LC. I see him less than I used to. I have taken to avoiding Starbucks on weekday mornings when he might be there.
His house still has not sold. It has been on the market since the beginning of May, and this is the second attempt to sell. LO was displeased with his first agent, so when the contract expired, he chose someone else. Lots more people are looking at it, but nobody has made an offer.
It is a very unusual, impractical house. Two separate structures with two bedrooms each. Huge gardens. Not really suitable for a family.
The comedy club would kill me. The amount of energy expended on stage fright and whatever else goes on up there would be way too much for me. A fun idea, though.
Yes, LO does have horrible personality shortcomings, and I joke that when you look up the word Disappointment in the dictionary, there is a picture of LO. But relationships are more than one thing. He disappoints me part of the time. Part of the time he smiles at me. When he listens to me with interest, I feel wonderful. However, I wonder if he’s really listening? Or, is he listening, but then remembers nothing? If he remembers nothing, what is the point of telling him anything?
ND:
“I am in LC. I see him less than I used to. I have taken to avoiding Starbucks on weekday mornings when he might be there.”
That’s not LC. At least how I would define it. LC is as limited as you can get away with, given the circumstances.
LC would be … if you happen to see him when you’re going out to your car … ok, you wave. If he walks over to talk to you … you make polite conversation for as short of time as you can before excusing yourself because “you’re busy.” You’re not going to trap yourself in the house just to avoid him, but you’re not socializing with him. You’re not initiating contact. If he reaches out, you can respond but you keep short and don’t rush to respond and don’t keep the conversation going too long.
LC would be pulling way back. It’s doing as little as you can, given you’re neighbors and you can’t totally avoid him.
“His house still has not sold. It has been on the market since the beginning of May, and this is the second attempt to sell. LO was displeased with his first agent, so when the contract expired, he chose someone else. Lots more people are looking at it, but nobody has made an offer.
It is a very unusual, impractical house. Two separate structures with two bedrooms each. Huge gardens. Not really suitable for a family.”
You’ve posted all of this before. 🙂
Your next post … it needs to be about you. 🙂 Your life. Not his. Not your friend’s life.
“The comedy club would kill me. The amount of energy expended on stage fright ”
Exactly. Aliveness. 🙂
“When he listens to me with interest, I feel wonderful. However, I wonder if he’s really listening?”
He’s not. He can’t remember basic details.
Fantasy Island: LwL – Pilot
Scene 1: Mr. Roarke and Tattoo are addressing the staff near the pier…
Roarke: “Attention, everyone! Your attention, please. I have a very important announcement. [staff leans in, Roarke continues] This Fantasy Island will be like anything we’ve done before. A mysterious DrL has paid for a group of limerents to spend a week on Fantasy Island having a “limerent experience.” He has provided quite extensive instructions on how the experience is to be conducted.
Tattoo: “What’s a limerent, Boss?
[Roarke smiles benignly]: “Nobody precisely knows. It’s a phenomenon first described by a Dorothy Tenov that has gained a lot of attention in recent years. However, it has yet to be formally recognized by the mental health community. It can be quite debilitating. DrL is paying us to attempt to help these limerents [skeptical eye roll].
Tattoo: “Can we do it boss?”
Roarke: “Tattoo, this is Fantasy Island. Have we ever failed?”
Tattoo: “I’m confused.”
Roarke: “So are they, Tattoo, so are they…We have our instructions.”
Tattoo: “Da plane, Boss!, Da plane!”
Roarke [clapping his hands]: “Places, everyone! Places!”
[The plane pulls up and 4 passengers debark. The passengers are given leis and a tropical drink.]
Tattoo: “None of these people appear particularly debilitated, Boss.
Roarke [under his breath]: “Not know, Tattoo
Roarke [louder]: “Welcome! Welcome to Fantasy Island!”
Casting: TBD but I have some ideas.
To Limerent Emeritus:
This is very intriguing.
Fantasy Island – LwL:
Scene 2: Fade in to Roarke and Tattoo in a well apportioned tropical office
Roarke: “Well, Tattoo, what do you think of our guests?”
Tattoo: “They seem like a pretty standard lot, a married couple, a single man and a single woman.” What are their stories?”
Roarke: “The married man is limerent for a coworker. The single woman is limerent for her neighbor, and the single man is limerent for a woman he encountered online but whom he’s never met.”
Tattoo: “Where do we come in, Boss?”
Roarke: “We are going to provide the limerents to craft their Fairy-Tale-Ending, that is if they could write whatever ending they think they want with their Limerent Object, they’ll have an opportunity to see how it might play out.”
Tattoo: “Wait…’Limerent Object?’…what’s a ‘Limerent Object’?”
Roarke” A Limerent Object, or LO, is the focal point for the limerent’s feeling and emotions.”
Tattoo: “So, there’s another person involved? It sounds complicated, Boss.”
Roarke: “Very complicated, Tattoo. Limerence is a mix of psychological and psychological components that vary within each individual. Toss in another party and things can become very complicated, very quickly. Limerence is kind of like a mirror ball, turn it slightly and another facet is reflecting back. In mathematical terms, it’s multi-dimensional and multi-variable. One size definitely does not fit all.”
Tattoo: “So, is limerence a bad thing?”
Roarke: “Not necessarily. Tennov’s criteria are a list of specific feelings and behaviors. For some limerents, these feelings and behaviors don’t cause them distress. It’s possible for two limerents who are mutually limerent for each other to craft quite successful relationships. For others, like our guests, these feelings can compel actions which have significant consequences, very significant consequences.”
Tattoo: “How will the, what did you call it, the Limerent Experience or Fairy-Tale-Ending, turn out for our guests?”
Roarke: “There’s a fine line between a fantasy and a nightmare. It can be easy to cross. Actions have consequences, even on Fantasy Island…Even on Fantasy Island.”
To Limerent Emeritus:
I am enjoying this more than I would like to admit.
Glad you like it!
I’m thinking about casting.
In this era of woke revisionism, I’m thinking of casting Marcia as Tattoo.
To Limerent Emeritus:
I shudder to think what her reaction will be.
“In this era of woke revisionism, I’m thinking of casting Marcia as Tattoo.”
I accept … but only if I get to pick my Mr. Roarke.
My choice will be in keeping with your idea of non-traditional casting … he’ll be very young. As in: about 25. 🙂
And no goofy white suit. He’ll be shirtless. 🙂
LE,
I haven’t laughed that hard in a minute. In my head I was literally applying their voices to the script and it was freaking hilarious. (Like Montalban praising rich, Corinthian leather, lmao 🤣)
Yes please consider casting. I want to see where I end up.
Hopefully its with Marcia in a beachfront cabana.
“Hopefully its with Marcia in a beachfront cabana.”
No, no. I’ll be with Mr. Rourke.
If you want to be cast as the waiter who serves us our drinks (the kind that have little umbrellas in them) … that would be fine.
But you’re an extra. You don’t any lines. 🙂
Marcia,
As for you picking Mr. Roark, I’m not sure about it. But, I have an idea…
I’d like to retain some flavor of the original series. As Head Writer and Creative Director, I would find it easier to write dialog. As for you as Tattoo, you have creative license so long as you remain somewhat in spirit of Tattoo. Writing dialog as I imagine you might deliver it will be an interesting challenge.
Since it sounds like you’d cast a 25 yr old version of Fabio as Roark, how about this: Instead of Ricardo Montalban as the original Mr. Roark, we make him a younger version of Ricardo Montalban, as he was in Star Trek II, “The Wrath of Khan.” I like Ricardo Montalban and I can almost hear his voice as I write the dialog. The actual actor is less important than my ability to capture Roark’s essence. There’s something about Roark and Khan that appeals to me on a deep level.
I’m also considering bringing in an actor to voice DrL in the manner of Charlie in “Charlie’s Angels,” heard but never seen. Fenna has a nice accent, maybe she’d consider it.
I have also decided to cast former poster, lowendj, to be the band leader for the show. You can read about him in some very early posts.
Any resemblance to current or past LwL posters is coincidental.
LE,
“Instead of Ricardo Montalban as the original Mr. Roark, we make him a younger version of Ricardo Montalban, as he was in Star Trek II, “The Wrath of Khan.” ”
No. He was 61 in that movie. Too old.
One of the actors from “Heated Rivalry.” Or the lead in “The Shards.” Richard Gere’s son.
“I’m also considering bringing in an actor to voice DrL in the manner of Charlie in “Charlie’s Angels”” … “Since it sounds like you’d cast a 25 yr old version of Fabio as Roark” … “Ricardo Montalban as the original Mr. Roark, we make him a younger version of Ricardo Montalban, as he was in Star Trek II, “The Wrath of Khan.””
You HAVE to get some more current references, my dude. 🙂
Marcia,
Have you forgotten that my development was arrested in the late 80s?
I started rolling in the mid-70s and peaked in the mid-80s.
I’m also working on “Limerence American Style” and “The Limerence Boat.” LwL lends itself to ensemble casting.
Theme cruises are a thing. There are Disney Cruises for kids and disco cruises for the Public Broadcasting fund raiser crowd. Why not a cruise especially for limerents? Confining limerents to cruise ship with access to booze could be a real hoot.
You can be the Cruise Director. MJ can be the bartender. ND can be the Purser.
Brought to you by L.E. Studios!
To L.E.:
Wait, why am I the purser?
“No, no. I’ll be with Mr. Rourke.”
Marcia
This is Fantasy Island, so I guess I need to let you have your fantasy. So that would make you the Co-Host. Correct?
“If you want to be cast as the waiter who serves us our drinks (the kind that have little umbrellas in them) … that would be fine.”
Well since I do suffer from person addiction, I think it would only be fitting I should be cast as an alcoholic waiter who is addicted to vodka. This would add to comedic value. And you know what they say about Vodka don’t you?
Ones alright
Twos the most
Three under the table
Four under the host 😆
“I’m also working on “Limerence American Style” and “The Limerence Boat.” LwL lends itself to ensemble casting.”
LE
Omg Limerence Boat would be freaking slapstick hilarious. I have to see that. Imagine the characters. 😂
“Confining limerents to cruise ship with access to booze could be a real hoot.”
For real. Especially if Adam gets to drunk sing on his Davenport. 🤪
Or Marcia reveals her secret crush on me. A man (a waiter no less) her own age.
However Fantasy Island (Limerence edition) has the best possibility for award gain imo. I mean Limerence and Fantasy. What a perfect combination. It’s in the name. The possibilities for limerence episode storylines would be endless.
LE,
“Have you forgotten that my development was arrested in the late 80s?”
Is that when you got married? 🙂
“I started rolling in the mid-70s and peaked in the mid-80s.”
Me, personally, I’m not done yet. I’m trying to say current. Hot times are ahead of me. 🙂
“Why not a cruise especially for limerents? Confining limerents to cruise ship with access to booze could be a real hoot.”
I actually agree with you here.
“You can be the Cruise Director. ”
Like Julie from “The Love Boat”? (I’m making out-of-date references so as not to confuse you. 🙂 I’m in, but I’m not wearing her horrible, Dorothy Hammil bowl haircut. 🙂
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/mesoODuok1Q
“MJ can be the bartender. ”
Oh, yeah, he is sooo Isaac! 🙂
Actually, the guy who played the purser went on to become a congressman. He was a Harvard graduate.
MJ,
“Four under the host 😆”
Yeah, the host being my 25-year-old Mr. Rourke! 🙂
Yes, I’m the co-host. LE cast me appropriately! 🙂
“A man (a waiter no less) her own age.”
How do I put this in a politically correct way? I have never “had coffee” with a man older than early 40s. I intend to keep it that way. 🙂
ND,
Fine…
You can be Doc. I’m not making you the Captain.
To L.E.:
I don’t object to being the purser, I just wanted to know why.
I definitely wouldn’t want to be the captain.
“Like Julie from “The Love Boat” I’m in, but I’m not wearing her horrible, Dorothy Hammil bowl haircut. 🙂”
Marcia
Does that mean you’re going to have on a sailor suit with hat and tie? Will you be carrying a clipboard, logging how many drinks I’ve had? Or how many babes under 25 you’ve caught me trying to chat up? Why did I think you already had the Dorothy Hammil thing going on? I’m just curious.
🤔😁😆
Tbh I always thought Julie was kinda cute, but then that younger friend of hers started tagging along too. I forgot her name.
MJ,
“Does that mean you’re going to have on a sailor suit with hat and tie? ”
I will wear the necessary uniform, yes. 🙂
“Will you be carrying a clipboard, logging how many drinks I’ve had? ”
I’ll be logging the names and room numbers of the hot guys who check in. That’s the job of the cruise director. To greet everyone. 🙂
“Or how many babes under 25 you’ve caught me trying to chat up? ”
You can talk to whoever you want to. Unless I get complaints. 🙂
Meanwhile … don’t hover around me. I don’t want you to c-blok me. 🙂
“Why did I think you already had the Dorothy Hammil thing going on? I’m just curious.”
I can’t — nor do I want to — try to understand what goes on in your head. 🙂
“Tbh I always thought Julie was kinda cute, but then that younger friend of hers started tagging along too. I forgot her name.”
The captain’s daughter?
Yeah, they both fit what I thought you’d like.
ND,
Short answer, I cast you as Purser as there are limited crew member roles. Marcia was Cruise Director, hands down. Of the current crop of posters, MJ was also the obvious choice for Isaac.
IMO, you come across as a better fit for the Purser role. I envision you as the non-limerent foil for the rest of the crew. It takes one to know one so it’s a good fit. I want Gopher to portray an incredulous observer to the absurdity of limerence and keep things running while Marcia pours on the gas and MJ throws matches.
LE,
“absurdity of limerence and keep things running while Marcia pours on the gas and MJ throws matches.
You got that right! All this previous talk of tables and who will be sitting where … MJ and I will be sitting at the FUN table. Join us if you dare. 🙂
“You can’t HANDLE the fun table!” 🙂
To L.E.:
Now that you have explained it, I happily accept the role of Purser.
My 🤔 is perked… 😋
I am so nw tio this and didnt realise i am limerent. I have had an on lien connection with someone who lived in the USA and returned to the UK. I saw her for a few days and realised I had strong feelings for her, I didnt tell her to her face. But a few days later I called her and told her. She said she wasn’t dating and hadn’t for a while but might date one day. I am proably 15 years older than her ( I’m 68 ) and told me that I should date. I called her again I told her that I had feelings for her she told me that it is ‘all in my mind’, she explained she has had crushes before as ell. Being hoenst we are probably not compatiable, but I still have feeling for her and want her. She lives some distance from me too. Is she telling me there’s no chance – should i try and move on? How can I get closure, its real torture and its taken over my thoughts 24/7 and I fell quite unwell. Any thoughts or help would be very welcome. Thanks
Hi
Base on your brief description, I think:
1. She is NOT telling you to move on. She just wants you to calm down to check if your feeling is Real, or just a quick crush, like hers in the past.
2. She had crushes before that didn’t fruit, so she’s cautious about dating anyone new. She’s no longer 23 or 33 to care-freely jump into a romantic flare/fling.
3. Without actually dating her, you can’t know whether you’re deeply compatible. Also aside from core values, compatibility can be cultivated later between two well-connected lovebirds.
4. If I were you, I’d keep the online dialogue going, but chatting at ease about anything else in life, except relationship/dating itself. Talk with her like you’re good acquaintances. She knows your feelings for her so would watch what you’d do with your declared feelings. Talking is a form of action.
5. Meanwhile, carefully observe your emotions for her: getting stronger, weaker, neutral. It’s advised here to bring down LE fever even if both sides are available.
6. It’s plausible for a potential dating/relationship, despite the current barriers. Don’t feel discouraged, not yet, unless you have other better options to go.
Is she still working? Are you retired or free to relocate? A long-distance dating is very hard without 5 sensory inputs.
In my tunnel vision, it takes a heart to win another heart, but not those dating strategies or tricks. Words mean little/nothing without matching actions to back up.
Hope my one-penny thoughts helps a little.
Thats the probelm shes not telling me to move on its all uncertainty and hope which I am told is the main cause of limerence ? She seems fiaxated on another man to – not sure theyr are dating though. I live 450 miles away. I am feeling very anxious, ruminating and worried. I did stay with her for four days there were tbh many incompatibilities which would be difficult to overcome and our age difference is a concern. She is not currently working but lloking to work. I could relocate but that would be a huge upheaval and tbh again would unlikely to not work, her lifestyle is very differenct to me to. I would like closure but ive asked twice and not really got to the bottom of it except to say shes not dating and has not for a while and encouarged me to go out an date – feel tis is a poilicte way of saying NO to me. Wish I had asked,she is unavailable – I’m currently trying NC which is bloody hard. I would like to go to sleep for ages and wake up an its all gone. I need closure but cant seem to get it. No contact is the best way ?
“I would like closure but I’ve asked twice and not really got to the bottom of it except to say she’s not dating and has not for a while and encouraged me to go out an date ”
Sorry to be this blunt, but if she’s encouraging you to go out with other women and telling you your feelings for her are in your head … that’s not being polite. That’s being pretty direct.
I think she’s given you closure. She’s one of the better LOs. She’s not leaving you hanging. I don’t think there’s much ambiguity here.
I know NC is difficult. I’m in it myself.
Thank you thats what I needed to know – thats helped very much. I am in NC but miss her so uch was hping to stay friends ( on line ) but not sue I can and if thas even a good idea ? May I ask, not meanig to be rude but how long have you been NC ? is it helping ? I’m only two days inand is hurts so much – does it get any easier ? the pain is awful
“Thank you thats what I needed to know – thats helped very much. ”
You’re welcome. Sorry I couldn’t deliver a more positive message.
“I am in NC but miss her so uch was hping to stay friends ( on line ) but not sue I can and if thas even a good idea ?”
I personally don’t think you can be friends with an LO. There has been a lot of debate on that topic on this site.
I think there has to be a finality mindset with limerence to get over it. For the limerent’s brain to process it. The door has to be shut. You will never see or communicate with this person again. Any small tendril attached to the LO (even just telling yourself you can be friends in the future when the LE dies down) just keeps the LE going, even if just on simmer.
” May I ask, not meanig to be rude but how long have you been NC ? ”
About a year.
“is it helping ?”
Yes, but slowly.
I’d say it was 7 or 8 months until I stopped checking my phone to see if he texted. Clearly, he wasn’t going to contact me (and I knew that) but there’s knowing something and accepting it. Having it sink in.
I’ve started to feel better in the last couple of months, but I’m not doing jigs down the street. 🙂 Starting to get out again and notice … Oh, there are other men on the planet.
Hi ASurreychap,
The wifi in my area had an outage all day, so couldn’t reply earlier with one more point. I’m glad that you got a wise advice on how to go NC with your long-distance flame.
Just want to say. When you date a single woman in the future, there is always a possibility that she might be dating someone else or someone is after her heels. You’ll face and deal with your jealousy that usually comes with infatuation/crush. (I’m ancient with white hair flying, but got hit on in a roll — yesterday and today, a new Doc & a new PT, looking 30 yrs old apart. The older one courteous and flattery; younger one smiley but a bit bawdy…)
But as long as there is no engagement ring on her finger and you really feel/fall for her, you’ll need to bravely woo her sweetly, courteously and persistently, until she says a firm (not a hint) YES, or NO.
I hope you can sleep better soon. Good lucks 🍀
Marcia – You have really helped me tonight. Thank you so much. I need to trudge on limernce sucks, but at least I know, with luck that there is a way out !
My Marcia 😁
Saving the planet. One limerent at a time.. 😆
That’s a nice comment. Thank you. 🙂
I like that!
Marcia can be the Greta Thunberg of LwL!
Is NC the best and only way to move on ? The thought of never seeing her again is awful, but I know I can never be just friends with her , indeed I may meet her again if she visits londian and it will be torture, i believe its called limerent limbo. Any advice re NC is welcome
You’re not in limbo. You told her how you feel and she responded. You know where she stands.
Are you a social person? Do you have friends and/or family to spend time with?
I think your best bet is to try to occupy yourself with some activities and/or socializing, both of which could help you get your mind off of her, even if it’s just for a short time. You may even meet some other women. I’m not saying to dive into a relationship or dating but just to show you she’s not the only woman out there.
Honestly, there’s no reason to stay in contact with your LO or see her again. You’re both single, right? What happened sounds like the equivalent of you asking her out and getting a no in response. Why would you stay in contact under those circumstances?
its comlicated but itlwasys is isnt it it seems. We communicated of line for ten months when she lived in the USA, she returned to the UK ( Scotland ) and we kept in contact on line. She blew a little cold after a while. I went and saw her and stayed with he for four day discovered she has ADHD, , late to ned and gettig up late, eating habits different to me with other things we are a mismatch on and it would be a struggle to liev with, which makes me think we are incompatibale. Also, late night calls wityhsi other man. Yeys she insists she is not datibng and does not wnat to at the moment. Yet when I left I realised I had feelings for her – odd, maybe ist an attachemnt thing. I have been alone for 12 years and fear of being lonely again its is agony. But she has tbh focussed on another man and not me, who lives much closer her and might ahve nore in commons with her. I’m jealous if im honestt but I also realise that if she said yes ( I live near London ) it would be a mismatch and would be real struggle to kake it work. But why I cant let go, not sure i got a No, or maybe I did, but I don’t feel and closure and it is agony. Perhaps closure will have to come from me and going No Contact is the only way/ Any thoughts or advice would welcome as I am only 3 days into this and I am in stomach churning turmoil.
A Surrey Chap,
Perhaps you can focus on all “red lights” in this LE dynamic, which then would help bring down your LE fever?
1. She has ADHD, which is about impossible for you to live with. (Someone in this site self-claims as having ADHD, they could tell us more about their insight)
2. Her eating habit and sleep hygiene are totally out of alignment with yours.
3. Unclear association with other men would provoke your jealousy constantly.
4. If she has ADHD but has fixated on another man (maybe just in your LE eyes), then she’s hiding a possible LE for him. Then there would be no room left for you, even for a friendship.
5. A true closure MUST takes place inside limerent’s head, don’t give that decision/power to LO, the rejection hurts more.
6. Walking away decisively will empower your autonomy and strengthen your mind and body, although the temporary pains of withdrawal is unavoidable on the LE recovery path.
Keep talking here, if it helps you reduce the agony.
Thnak you very much for your thoughts and comments it really helped me when I read this today – it’s much appreciated.
Hi A Chap,
You’re welcome!
My view is limited, you know your situation and yourself better: what you can/cannot accept and what can/cannot be changed in your LE dynamic.
It’d be helpful to jolt down what’d be green and red lights in a steady relationship for YOU, so in the future you won’t Fall too fast with too many red lights blinking. Occasionally, a couple of red light could change to yellow/green one if you’re a gallant White Knight 🏇🏻 for a “damsel in distress”… 😀
Hand scribing/writing helps clear clogged mind and reduce emotional pains.
Best wishes! 🍀
Still after NC for one wek feelig sick in stomach and msisng her or not speakig or contact. I even dreamed about trying to contact her last nightm itw as awful I guess she said move on in a polite way – but i still pine for her and it hurts. I am trying bot to think of her but shes the frist thing i think of when i wake -even drwmaig about her now 🙂 Any thoughts or how I can move on ?
Sorry didnt spell check – Still after NC for one wek feeling sick in stomach and missing her or not speaking or any contact. I even dreamed about trying to contact her last night it was awful, I guess she said move on in a polite way – but I still pine for her and it hurts. I am trying not to think of her but shes the first thing i think of when I wakeup – now I even dreaming about her now. Finding hard not to think there is no future with her. Any advice or thoughts please ?
ASC,
Very briefly for now – a first step is don’t fight the intrusive thoughts. Instead let them in, sit with them (even if uncomfortable) and they will pass quicker. Each time you try to fight them out of your head you are creating a game for your brain’s chemicals. Your brain will put the thoughts straight back in so they can have another round of the game (sick, eh?). If you sit with your thoughts, you stop or slow that game.
I would say allow that to happen for X amount of hours a day, but with time boundaries – and at other times distract by doing other things that occupy the mind.
@Lovisa – if you still read LwL, you once shared me a very helpful YT video about the above that I think this poster would benefit from. I have forgotten who it was by, though (?Mark somebody?). If you know, please reshare.
ASC, this process is going to take patience, self-digging (probably more of that later, after this kind of ‘try and accept’ phase now), and belief that it won’t always be this bad. 💪
Hi A Surrey Chap,
I find having NO hope is the worst thing in life! If one wants to give up hope in something, s/he first needs to find some hopes in other stuff in life.
I agree with what LaR says: right now not fight too hard with the intrusive thoughts, and definitely go easy with the dreams — it’s beyond our control.
The toughest thing in your case is, it’s NOT nail in the coffin yet! So your mind refuses to give up all hopes: 💭 ‘if there were a magical wand, things could change to what I’ve wished, ie. she loses the fixation on the guy, changes dreadful living habits, agrees to date me…’ That tiny bit of wishful thinking has registered on the back of your mind, thus the Unconscious talks via dreams…
Since you have more free time, can you travel to visit family or friends faraway, just taking your mind off for a while?
Or can you adopt a puppy 🐶 ? They’re so loving, absolutely unconditional… (the first thing I do after retirement is to get one or two puppies)
Feeling better soon 🫂
A poem for you, A Surrey Chap —
*****
Verse for a Certain Dog
Dorothy Parker
1893 –1967
Such glorious faith as fills your limpid eyes,
Dear little friend of mine, I never knew.
All-innocent are you, and yet all-wise.
(For heaven’s sake, stop worrying that shoe!)
You look about, and all you see is fair;
This mighty globe was made for you alone.
Of all the thunderous ages, you’re the heir.
(Get off the pillow with that dirty bone!)
A skeptic world you face with steady gaze;
High in young pride you hold your noble head;
Gayly you meet the rush of roaring days.
(Must you eat puppy biscuit on the bed?)
Lancelike your courage, gleaming swift and strong,
Yours the white rapture of a wingèd soul,
Yours is a spirit like a May-day song.
(God help you, if you break the goldfish bowl!)
“Whatever is, is good,” your gracious creed.
You wear your joy of living like a crown.
Love lights your simplest act, your every deed.
(Drop it, I tell you—put that kitten down!)
You are God’s kindliest gift of all,—a friend.
Your shining loyalty unflecked by doubt,
You ask but leave to follow to the end.
(Couldn’t you wait until I took you out?)
An update, I have spoken to my LO again late last week , she has repeated she doesn’t want to date anyone. But I do know she is infactuated with someone (might or might not be dating , might be friends I’m just not sure and is it any of my business ? )
Despite this, I am still holding out with hope, don’t know why. Its hard, I will
l will continue to try NC and stick to it If I can ( its hard ! ) I’ve deleted all photos of her, cards and wats app mesages etc. I still have stomach churns and deep down as described before I can see we are a mismatch ( she might think this too but she has not been clear with me when I told her I have feelings for hers he says we are just two equal human beings, and has said before its in my head ( thats certainly true 24/7 )
I still hold a candle for her. I’m having CBT ( I need lots more sessions I think ) but he has not heard of limerance before , but he has picked up on relationship issues and says thoughts not facts. I’m pretty sure I have anxious attachment from past realationhips failures and mourn the loss of this, but was it a relationship ?
We spoke line for ten months. I only stayed with her for four days a few weeks back an when all her ADHD, smoking, vegetarian, late sleeping, watching long you tube videos and her fiaxation for this other man and other things came to light. Deep down I know this is not good foe me and yet I persist, I focus on the good things ( she is a very ncie person to be fair ) not the negative things. My LO has all started post visit, but I guess it started when we cahhted on nline for ten months everyday ( usually 40 -60 mins )
I wish In had discussed this when i saw her in person, but it ‘ate’ away at me after I left as I knew I has these feelings, and have told her three times now – she has said she not dating every time and I believe the age gap and other mismatches are apparent to her ( the gap is probaly an issue to, its about 15 years she has never told me her age I’m 68 )
Any advice or thoughts how to deal with this and hopefully help me start moving on would be very welcome. Thank you
Chap,
I’m going to be a little blunt with you. She has been clear. If you tell someone how you feel and they don’t respond they feel the same way … that’s your answer.
And I think you wrote … in another post ? … you had disclosed twice. Please don’t do it again. It’s an extremely uncomfortable position to be put in, having to turn someone down. But particularly, having to do it more than once. And then, to be frank, as a woman, you start to resent being put in the position more than once.
NC is very hard. When I first went NC, I had tremendous anxiety. You’re in essence ripping yourself off the drug. Off the supply.
Good luck with the therapy. Keep going. 🙂
Point taken Thank you. the first two occasions she was not beig so clear, that what it seemed to me anyway, but yes I do see that I ahve my answer. I just don’t want to hear it if I’m being honest ! Hence today I went full NC and delated all the photos/ messages and things that remind me of her. I will now try an trundle on with CBT and NC – I appreciate your frankness . Its just that im new to all this and struggling.
Chap,
“Point taken Thank you. the first two occasions she was not being so clear, that what it seemed to me anyway”
Just flip the situation … if she was the one to first disclose deep feelings for you, would you respond the way she has?
The older I get, the more I am really starting to understand how most of this stuff is pretty simple if you boil it down to its essence … if a man is interested, he tells the woman/asks her out; if a woman is interested, she says she’s also interested/says yes to the date and things move forward.
“It’s just that im new to all this and struggling.”
Don’t beat yourself up if you don’t do NC perfectly right away. It might take a few tries to really stick with it.
Hi A Surrey Chap,
Just want to say that also as a woman, I never felt uncomfortable to turn my suitors down in the past. Maybe I’m from a different culture (but has lived in the West for decades), where it’s more Macho and suitors/men are supposed to woo, once, twice, or even trice to show he’s truly interested. At the bottom line, It’s emotional responsibility, not my doing/“fault”, although I’d feel sad/sorry for him. Inside, I’d appreciated it (or felt flattered) but still turn it down firmly (repeatedly), when I didn’t want to deal with them romantically. But I guess, in the modern West, it’s different.
******** I want to answer your message from a neutral, outsider’s eyes —
“I have spoken to my LO again late last week , she has repeated she doesn’t want to date anyone. “
If I were you, I’d just take the face value of what she said, without other choice. But her line (not “I’m seeing/dating someone else) has left a tiny bit of hope: she might want to date someone one day sooner or later.
“But I do know she is infactuated with someone (might or might not be dating , might be friends I’m just not sure and is it any of my business ? )”
You’re in LE, so the word “infatuate” could be accurate or exaggerated (due to the expected LE jealousy) to describe her situation. It’s possible that her infatuated man is unavailable or non-reciprocating her. Would she eventually kill her “infatuation” and start dating, we don’t know.
“Despite this, I am still holding out with hope, don’t know why. Its hard, I will continue to try NC and stick to it If I can ( its hard ! )”
Even if there is slim hope, it’s wise to continue and stick to NC. It’s a very tough journey. Expect that you might feel three sheets to the wind in three days….
“I can see we are a mismatch ( she might think this too but she has not been clear with me when I told her I have feelings for hers he says we are just two equal human beings, and has said before its in my head ( thats certainly true 24/7 )”
It’s nearly impossible to know what’s going on in her (or anyone else’s) head, so could you tell/remind yourself: “whatever goes on in my head might be just my imagination, all in my mind, nothing realistic”? “We are just two equal human beings” might be true to her, but also could be a comforting line to reduce your sense of inferiority. You said (the below) that she very nice, so I’d choose the 1st possibility to believe — she truly sees you as an equal!
“I still hold a candle for her… I’m pretty sure I have anxious attachment from past realationhips failures and mourn the loss of this, but was it a relationship ?”
How sweet and romantic of you! But it doesn’t sound like a romantic relationship, since she said three times she didn’t want to date. It sounds like one type of relations, though online not in reality yet.
“…. when all her ADHD, smoking, vegetarian, late sleeping, watching long you tube videos and her fiaxation for this other man and other things came to light. Deep down I know this is not good foe me and yet I persist..”
Her living habits began to show once you stepped a bit in her life; could be shocking since you probably hadn’t expected them. You know yourself better to ask: can I live with all these if she said/say YES to date you? Can she change or I change if we do date? (Don’t forget the long-distance between you)
“I focus on the good things ( she is a very ncie person to be fair ) not the negative things. “
That’s your mental assets, don’t let it go — try always to focus on positive sides of things, people and life, even when we feel so down/blue.
“My LO has all started post visit, but I guess it started when we cahhted on nline for ten months everyday ( usually 40 -60 mins )”
What’s “post visit” here? Did she start to visit you or you her? But 40~60 minutes of daily online chat can get anyone into a behavioral “addiction”, which can confuse one as “love/infatuation”.
“I wish In had discussed this when i saw her in person, but it ‘ate’ away at me after I left as I knew I has these feelings…”
Were you close enough to comfortably “discuss” each other’s personal life and intimate feelings?
“have told her three times now – she has said she not dating every time and I believe the age gap and other mismatches are apparent to her ( the gap is probaly an issue to, its about 15 years she has never told me her age I’m 68 )”
She said three times that she’s not dating, again I’d take her words for her truth. Regarding the age gap, men 15 years older than women rarely causes any fuss (maybe 25~50 yrs older) anywhere; but if women 15 years older, then you’d see the whole globe jumping on it.
To me, it’s really a matter between you two living in the West. Conventionally it’s more up to younger one to pick/decide their relationship.
The West is a “heaven” for young, but in the East, it’s in 99.99% cases a man is older (up to 30 yrs) than the woman he dates. Three yrs difference the other way around would cause a public “scandal” — either she’s an eater of young calf, or his eyes are green for her (known as a billionaire’s daughter or widow) money.
Edit:
“It’s HIS emotional responsibility…”
“if she said/say YES to date ME?”
“ although I’d feel sad/sorry for him, but not uncomfortable or guilty (I never misled him). “
If I’m in turmoil and reliase that it will never workout with my LO, I know it will be painful i the short term, but in the log run is No Conact the best way to deal with limerence ? We don’t work together or live close we met on an on line zoom forum, which continues, but I can leave. Any advice on NC or the way forward will realy help me. I’m in agony. Thanks
It looks like your LE won’t fruit with the existing conditions, even if she says Yes. For single limerents who don’t work with their LO or live nearby, No Contact IS the only way to go.
Cutting online link only takes a click; to get to a total mental detachment will take some time. It’s going to be agonizing for a while, I’m sorry for your pain.
Can you distract yourself with some hobbies? Or tire yourself out with physical exercises for a better sleep?
Best wishes!
Hiya ASurreyChap,
What you have been given by your LO reads to me as a clear ‘no’, as per your chat with Marcia.
In that event, it will feel tempting to try and keep a friendship with the LO. But given your circumstances, I don’t think you’d be able to extinguish your limerence while still being friemds – or at least not for a very long time (like, years). So any attempt at ‘friendship’ comes with that caveat – you are putting continued limerence into the package if you do that.
NC is the proven strategy on this site for ending an LE the fastest. Other strategies tend to lead to months, or years, of back and forth and rumination (I’ve been there).
The excruciating pain you are currently feeling is probably at its worst now, or will be soon. It should then get a little better with each day of NC. That will be so slow that you may not feel it day by day, but if you track your mood each week/month etc, you *will* feel it improve, and notice that she is in your thoughts less of the time. Believe me that this will happen, even if at this second it doesn’t feel like it.
It will be important to keep yourself busy with stuff you normally enjoy. LEs can dampen all that down, but it is still there somewhere and so it is worth trying. And have you got someone you can talk to (personally, and/or if needs be therapeutic help) to help you work through this? I can pick up that it has really got to you, so that may also be important.
Good luck. Come here and chat to us any time if you need to.
Yes I noiw have access to help from today thnak you for all your support.
Good to hear!
Please keep the mind open to the future… one never knows in advance what might/could happen —
https://youtu.be/NB8yc4KbccI?si=dRhzZgJYKW0068bz — opps…
🍀
I haven’t been on this website in a long time but I thought I would give an update. It will be 2 years of no contact from me in November and it has gotten so much easier. I still do occasionally think of LO, but it lacks that intense longing it once had. I do miss him in some ways but his complete lack of consideration when my mom died really showed me he wasn’t a friend worth having. In a funny way I’m thankful for his lack of care, it broke the spell for me even though it really hurt at the time. He has contacted me a few times since, the last being earlier this year. I gray rocked it and he’s pretty much left me alone since. I’m doing well and I think I’m limerence free at this point.
That’s big progress, congratulations! 🎈
I like that you are “thankful” even for negative sides of your LO and the interaction. Dark or unideal sides of life always serve us as VALUABLE lessons. Nothing we experienced in life gets wasted!
Of course, bright sides of life are gifts to our ordinary life, we cherish what we’ve got and have.
If you LO passes through your mind without any emotional charge, but just indifference, then your limerence FREE!
“Then you’re limerence 🆓!”
To Lost Girl:
I don’t know your story, but I can certainly understand how disheartening it is when someone won’t or can’t provide emotional support after the death of a beloved family member.
I’m working on breaking the spell in a similar way. LOs who are chronically inconsiderate tend to fall from grace.
I am popping in from the over-70 table after just coming back from my semi-annual Prolia injection, following a bone scan a few weeks ago.
I got great news from the doctor–my liver enzymes have been out of whack for years and are now normal. I asked her for an explanation and she has no idea, but I’m thrilled. My osteoporosis has not worsened, and I seem to be doing better now than I was a year ago.
Maybe cutting down on LO is good for my health?
Great news!
My 🤔 is perked… 😋
Great news, Norma, I’m very glad for you! 💪🏻
I was deep in my own head a few nights this week and decided to use ChatGPT as a supplemental therapist. In 2023-2024 I suddenly had feelings that felt a lot like love for someone I barely knew. She was part of a Twitch community I was a part of and the streamer of that community raided her one morning and I was pretty quickly smitten and pretty quickly “lost my mind” and genuinely hoped this person may just hop a flight across the country and show up at my door someday or ask me to come to her. With the clarity of post-mortem hindsight I see she never gave me any reason to think she was interested in me and when I gathered the courage to ask if she was she kindly shut me down and clarified she just wanted to be friendly. I’ve been married since the early 2010’s and I absolutely love my wife and the feelings I was having were very confusing and consuming. I desperately wanted to be able to hit a reset switch and go back to what was normal but it didn’t come without months of therapy and ultimately being blocked by this person (presumably over a misunderstanding as I hadn’t contacted her in months). In any case, my behavior during that time continued to bother me and I wanted to define it and try to find ways to prevent it. That’s where ChatGPT told me “that sounds like limerence” and linked me to this site. It further assured me limerence is not evidence of psychosis or something that requires medicinal intervention but it is something that can be recognized and I can make “speed limits/bumps” for me to stop and consider if I’m going over the edge again. With any of my maladies, I’ve found it extremely freeing and reassuring to know that I’m not alone and to be able to “put a name to my demons”- limerence. Happy and encouraged to have found this page.
Hi ust,
Welcome to LwL community. Most of invisible posters here are limerents (also limerents’ SOs, and perhaps few LOs?) who’ve gone through LE or are still immersed in limerence. So please feel ‘at home’ with a bunch of LE “ghosts”.
Let me understand your case here:
1. You fell in limerence with a woman from a Twitch community (I had no knowledge of it until just googled a few minutes ago)
2. She drew your attention because the streamer (one? Or a group?) raided her, why? for what reasons? Did you “know” or talk to each other before the raid?
3. What part of her made you smitten? Her personal attractiveness or the fact that she was raided by the streamer? Did you feel like defending/saving her if possible?
4. What made you to jump from being smitten to “lost my mind” wishing she’d land on your door step suddenly or you hers? Did you chat with each other privately through your community? Did you initially feel she reciprocated your LE affection?
5. When (how soon) did you realize that “she never gave me any reason to think she was interested in me”? You really believed that LE made you feel confused or think delusional?
6. Did she know you’re married? If yes, what did you expect her to answer (whether she had feelings for you or not)? Did she come across as a person with character or as someone who would enjoy forbidden fruits?
7. I believe your love for your wife. Now, what are differences between your wife and this Twitch LO, biased on your reasonable assessment or in your “lost mind”? Did you figure out what caused the Glimmer?
8. You went to therapy, did it help? It sounds like your therapist did not know what limerence is, not surprised.
9. So the Twitch LO started NC with you, possibly due to a misunderstanding? How did you feel about the NC? Did it help calm down your LE?
10. Now, after finding out what LE is, are you still bothered by your confused and incomprehensible LE two years ago? (I hope not) Nothing to feel shame about being HIT unknowingly by LE.
11. You’re Right that “ limerence is not evidence of psychosis or something that requires medicinal intervention.” And, it’s up to limerents’ willpower and learned LwL skills to totally recover from LE and prevent a new maddening LE.
12. Please be reassured and that YOU are not alone in living with Limerence. We are a sort of camaraderie here fighting with each’s own “demon”, but we support each other and stand together. It’s not an echo chamber, though.
13. Do you still have trouble sleeping nowadays? Or you have frequent nightmares?
14. Did you ever disclose to your wife? Is your marriage better nowadays?
15. Your LE seems to have passed , what’re your goals here? Have you read DrL’s book “Smitten”?
16. Please be prepared that others’ LE cases sometimes trigger off our old LE or our past unloaded psychological baggage. It’s might be a “price” to pay to stay in this community.
Be well!
Thank you for being so welcoming. And sorry- I sometimes forget when I’m talking in different online forums that don’t know the same lingo I use. When someone “raids” on Twitch it’s when they’re signing off for the day but they send all of their viewers to someone else’s stream to watch them. So it’s a friendly thing.
I’d talked to this LO before with brief niceties in the chat of this streamer who eventually raided her. When he raided her, I saw her for the first time because she on camera beside the game she playing. The game she was playing was significant too as it was one that was one of my favorites as a kid so it felt cozy and nostalgic. The fact that she was very good at playing this particular game, seemed to be a very gentle person, and was attractive caught me at first. LO was going through a rough patch and I found myself desperately wanting to help and help solve her problems. Though not in a way where I was constantly offering advice, more like I wanted to be there for her to help her. In hindsight, it was definitely for the best that she lived thousands of miles away (though in the same country) because it kept me from doing anything really stupid.
This woman was also trans. While I had told my wife, and only her, the previous year that I found men attractive I hadn’t shared that anywhere publicly. The LO often streamer in a sports bra as her only top. I never really looked at her solely in a sexual way which almost seems weirder in retrospect that I just desperately wanted to cuddle with her. My being attracted to her so strongly convinced me that it felt wrong pretending to present myself as heterosexual and so I came out to the online communities I was a part of which only made the whole LE feel more intwined in my identity.
All the while, LO never gave any indication she was interested in me romantically. My imagination ran wild and I started looking for signs and trying to read between the lines when we chatted on her stream and on the forum app Discord. I used to stream on Twitch as well and when she stopped by and chatted in my stream one night I completely misread it as what I wanted it to be when it was just a friendly person coming to check out what I was doing. So somewhere in this period my imagination of what I wanted to happen felt strong enough that I thought it may just happen that she would show up at my door or ask me to come visit. In private conversations I tiptoed around how far gone I was but flirted and she never reciprocated or flirted back. In retrospect I’m so glad that nothing did happen and it scares me that I was so willing to uproot my life for someone I barely knew. LO practiced polyamory so my marriage wasn’t necessarily a barrier for her though at one point she did say she was happy to hear that I loved my wife. My wife and I are both very much monogamous though so at the time I settled at figuring it out later if anything ever happened.
For the majority of my life I lived with crippling social anxiety that stunted my growth as a person and left me unable to make meaningful connections with most people. I was diagnosed and medicated for the first time in my late 20’s and I feel like I mourn the life that could have been if I’d been able to talk to more people and realized I was attracted to people regardless of their gender. The LO represented a reset point in my life that made the whole idea that much more attractive.
Finding myself so attracted to this woman I was confused because I naively thought those types of emotions weren’t possible anymore after I met my wife. My wife and I had already been married over a decade and I thought I was done feeling anything for anyone other than her until this happened. I called the LE a crush at the time and it felt a lot like love but it wasn’t. My love for my wife has evidences throughout our time together that prove to us we want each other at a soul level. The love between my wife and I feels like oppositely charged magnets that naturally pull toward each other. Maybe an important distinction to is my love for my wife is grounded in reality and not wishful thinking.
I did go to therapy during the LE and continue to see the same therapist to this day. I’ve thanked him many times for helping me through that but, no, when I brought up the term limerence to him recently he wasn’t familiar. But when I saw all the bullet points on this site of what it is they matched my LE exactly.
At one point in my LE, I was desperate to stop feeling like I needed interaction or input at all from the LO so I made a stupid decision and drank all day desperately trying to get my brain to reset (it did not work and do not try this). It was in this stupor that I told my wife I was pansexual and attracted to trans people and she put two and two together and found out I had a crush on the LO. The next week or so was one of the roughest times in our marriage and it still hurts me that I betrayed her trust and hurt her emotionally through that. My wife never knew just how far off the deep end I went though. My therapist and I agree that that’s a truth that would serve no purpose except to further hurt my wife.
The NC started suddenly after months where I had not contacted LO after I gathered the courage to ask if LO reciprocated and she kindly more or less said she just wanted to be friends (and, in fact, she’s only romantically interested in women). I believe the NC started when I shared a joke as an icebreaker when I was desperate to see if she could help me find additional closure. After sharing the joke she immediately blocked me so I went to message her on Twitch and said I don’t know what I did but I’m sorry, I’ll leave you alone and she blocked me there as well. Thankfully that’s where it ended and I didn’t feel the need to continue to search for answers with communication with her. I think she came to see me as a creep who was only interested in trans women in a perverse way. In a separate comnunity we were both a part of, I joked that I resonated with the term “Chaser” thinking it just meant someone who was attracted to trans women when in reality it has worse connotations. I’m guessing this is what the misunderstanding was based on talking with one of her friends but I don’t know for sure and that’s okay. The next day after being blocked, I’m 99% sure it was her who came with an alt account into another trans streamer I was watching (who I was not limerent towards) and said wasn’t it weird for someone to be watching trans girls and getting excited that early in the morning. I did not engage at that point. Eventually I turned to anger to help kill the attraction. I don’t think she gave me anything in particular to be angry about but I found it helpful to push through. As part of the LE, I left three communities on Twitch she was also a part of and ruined my nostalgia for the video game we both liked so much.
After finding out about limerence, it’s really helpful to know how closely I match the symptoms and that it is something that I can manage with my behavior. My therapist agrees that it was not a psychotic episode but I really wanted to make sure I didn’t go through another LE and after a very short period of giving in to imagination after having a “spicy” dream about a coworker this past week I was motivated to make sure I wasn’t going down the same path and wanted a concrete diagnosis for what had happened and steps to avoid it. As I told my therapist, I almost wish it was something I could just take a pill for because that doesn’t involve hard work on my part but now that I know what it is I can notice the signs.
I do still rarely dream about her but the details of her face get increasingly fuzzy as time goes on and I typically wake up mad at my subconcious brain for giving me that dream. I’ve not read Dr. L’s book yet but I am interested in picking it up and reading it as I find dissecting things like this helps make them seem less like a monster in the night and more like a mosquito landing on my arm.
Whoo that was a lot. Thank you for your welcoming words.
Hiya ust,
Any gaming terms sound a foreign language to me, I NEVER played any computer games online or offline. I don’t go to other SM, either. I wish there were 36 hours for me daily.
“The fact that she was very good at playing this particular game, seemed to be a very gentle person, and was attractive caught me at first.”
Finding a compatible game players is not easy, and the particular games that could provoke one’s childhood nostalgia are ever rare and special.
“LO was going through a rough patch and I found myself desperately wanting to help and help solve her problems. Though not in a way where I was constantly offering advice, more like I wanted to be there for her to help her. “
It sounds like a bit of a White Knight’s urge to “save” an attractive “damsel in distress”. But your urge was mixed with intellectual and sensual attraction. If not too private to ask, what sort of “rough patch” she was going through?
“In hindsight, it was definitely for the best that she lived thousands of miles away (though in the same country) because it kept me from doing anything really stupid.”
Hmm… It seems mostly like that you might have suddenly landed on her doorstep if there were not the long-distance.
“This woman was also trans. While I had told my wife, and only her, the previous year that I found men attractive I hadn’t shared that anywhere publicly. “
I don’t really know about trans; you were attracted by her masculinity? Or was she look like a woman but still a man biologically?
“The LO often streamer in a sports bra as her only top. I never really looked at her solely in a sexual way which almost seems weirder in retrospect that I just desperately wanted to cuddle with her. “
Was it like a bosom friend/sibling for a child? Or a surrogate parent? More on the mental and emotional level?
“My being attracted to her so strongly convinced me that it felt wrong pretending to present myself as heterosexual and so I came out to the online communities I was a part of which only made the whole LE feel more intwined in my identity.”
So you came out of the closet as a bi-sexual/androgynous in your online communities? It’s unhealthy/wrong to hide one’s true identity, even if it’s fluid.
“All the while, LO never gave any indication she was interested in me romantically. My imagination ran wild and I started looking for signs and trying to read between the lines when we chatted on her stream and on the forum app Discord.”
By then, I think you already fell in LE with her, but not knowing what it was. Thus, you read between her lines more than she intended? In your hindsight, have you got different interpretations between the same lines?
“I used to stream on Twitch as well and when she stopped by and chatted in my stream one night I completely misread it as what I wanted it to be when it was just a friendly person coming to check out what I was doing. “
How do you know for sure it’s a misread? Did you ever show or hint your romantic interests before this night? If Yes, she might want to discover more about who you were at a personal level; was that possible? In general, being friendly is a popular safe way (for both sides) to approach the other wide with hidden romantic feelings. If No, she might be just friendly or secretly interested in you as well.
“So somewhere in this period my imagination of what I wanted to happen felt strong enough that I thought it may just happen that she would show up at my door or ask me to come visit. “
I deem that there might be something unspoken but sensed between you two while interacting online/steaming, which led to your leaping imagination of landing on each other’s doorstep suddenly. Did you even know each other’s realistic address?
“In private conversations I tiptoed around how far gone I was but flirted and she never reciprocated or flirted back. “
Did you think/know she would surely understand your flirty language? I don’t know if you were culturally in sync since you’re living far apart, or if perhaps have two different personal styles in socializing or/and flirting?
“In retrospect I’m so glad that nothing did happen and it scares me that I was so willing to uproot my life for someone I barely knew. “
What do you mean “uproot” your life? You were not thinking to forsake your wife and suddenly fly to LO, which would be indeed scary. But was it scary just to check out (via some means), who she realistically is?
“LO practiced polyamory so my marriage wasn’t necessarily a barrier for her though at one point she did say she was happy to hear that I loved my wife. “
But if you and your wife are not polygamous, any considerate polygamies would be cautious to intrude into others’ monogamous partnership/marriage. They probably don’t want to cause emotional harms, thus tread their socializing steps respectfully and carefully.
“For the majority of my life I lived with crippling social anxiety… The LO represented a reset point in my life that made the whole idea that much more attractive.”
So LO somehow enabled you to clarify your previously vague gender identity, reduce your social anxiety, open up more for authentically connecting with others, “regardless of their gender”, and feel more self-confident /self-esteemed? Did she have a magical verbal wand?
“Finding myself so attracted to this woman I was confused because I naively thought those types of emotions weren’t possible anymore after I met my wife. “
By reading more of LwL, you’d learn many loving couples, include Dr L and his wife, had gone through what you experienced. LE is a part of human natures, can happen to anyone, married or otherwise…
“I called the LE a crush at the time and it felt a lot like love but it wasn’t.”
LE is at superficial and delusional level, although it can FEEL like love or a soulful connection. LE can be very self-centered, greedy, jealous… focusing mainly on one’s own tremulous emotions, with no/little consideration for LO — just an Object.
“My love for my wife has evidences throughout our time together that prove to us we want each other at a soul level. The love between my wife and I feels like oppositely charged magnets that naturally pull toward each other. “
Perhaps our souls have little to do with human animalistic pair-bonding desires?
“Maybe an important distinction to is my love for my wife is grounded in reality and not wishful thinking.”
There, there, you’ve captured a key point here: reality vs. wishful thinking. The former is based on substantial physicality and realistic environment, the latter abstract mentality in one’s head, isolated from even fleshy bosoms….
“It was in this stupor that I told my wife I was pansexual and attracted to trans people and she put two and two together and found out I had a crush on the LO. “
I solute your courage even pumped by the bottles.
“The next week or so was one of the roughest times in our marriage and it still hurts me that I betrayed her trust and hurt her emotionally through that. “
That’s conscientious of you. Did you apologize enough and assured her that your soul was/is still strongly tied with hers?
“My wife never knew just how far off the deep end I went though. My therapist and I agree that that’s a truth that would serve no purpose except to further hurt my wife.”
I would not know what to do unless I was put in your shoes. I guess it depends on SO’s capacity to handle their spouse’s EA/PA and the matter of relationship betrayal, which happened to a lot of couples at some point of their life.
“The NC started suddenly after months where I had not contacted LO after I gathered the courage to ask if LO reciprocated and she kindly more or less said she just wanted to be friends (and, in fact, she’s only romantically interested in women). “
So she’s a trans woman interested in women, and you’re an androgynous men interested in women & Tran-women? So you think she’s not interested in straight men or bi-sexual men?
“I believe the NC started when I shared a joke as an icebreaker when I was desperate to see if she could help me find additional closure. “
So you used a joke, as an icebreaker, to induce her NC to help your LE closure? You must have said something nasty or icy that would make her mad or distance herself?
“After sharing the joke she immediately blocked me so I went to message her on Twitch and said I don’t know what I did but I’m sorry, I’ll leave you alone and she blocked me there as well. “
So after she blocked you, due to your icebreaker joke, you went to contact her again in a different platform? Then she didn’t accept your apology and blocked you again? I guess, whatever you said in your icebreaker made her really angry/hurt.
“I think she came to see me as a creep who was only interested in trans women in a perverse way. “
I don’t understand any trans men/women’s psychology, but as you pointed out above, it’s realty vs. online connection; they’re quite different in terms of building a close/romantic connection with a new person.
In reality, we could sense others with our 5 senses; online we can’t. So a realistic interaction makes one (un)comfortable at a direct ,intuitive level; while online one at indirect, intellectual domain. LE or real love needs physiological actions/reactions to feed/starve emotions.
IMO, online connecting can make some people feel eerie/creepy perhaps because one’s five senses are mostly deprived while interacting (especially if without a camera or between parties who never previously met in person). Mind alone can’t replaces body, and body can’t substitute mind; they’re connected and influence each other somatically and psychologically.
“In a separate community we were both a part of, I joked that I resonated with the term “Chaser” thinking it just meant someone who was attracted to trans women when in reality it has worse connotations. I’m guessing this is what the misunderstanding was based on talking with one of her friends but I don’t know for sure and that’s okay. “
I can’t quite follow you here. You think the misunderstand lies on that she thought you’re a “chaser” as a woman “predator” in general thus went NC with you?
“The next day after being blocked, I’m 99% sure it was her who came with an alt account into another trans streamer I was watching (who I was not limerent towards) and said wasn’t it weird for someone to be watching trans girls and getting excited that early in the morning.”
So you thought that she didn’t like a “chaser” after trans women?
”I did not engage at that point. Eventually I turned to anger to help kill the attraction. I don’t think she gave me anything in particular to be angry about but I found it helpful to push through. “
Limrents here have found all sorts of psychological means to get over an unwanted LE. You use whatever works to cure the “malady”.
“As part of the LE, I left three communities on Twitch she was also a part of and ruined my nostalgia for the video game we both liked so much.”
That’s a quite loss! I’m sorry that you felt the need to leave them behind. Perhaps you could go back eventually after you’re sure your LE for this LO is totally over?
“…I didn’t go through another LE…. now that I know what it is I can notice the signs.”
That’s a huge progress, instead of rolling into one LE after another, like some serial limerents out there….
“I typically wake up mad at my subconscious brain for giving me that dream. “
Absolutely no need to be mad at (react to) uncontrollable in our life (Stoic). The more your logical mind resists/reacts), the more of her blurry image would creep into your future dreams. When unwanted dreams take place, just shrug your shoulders, “Ces’t la vie!”
“…I find dissecting things like this helps make them seem less like a monster in the night and more like a mosquito landing on my arm.”
Such vivid images to deal with LE beast! LE can become either a wild 🐎 or a fluffy 🐿️ in our head , all depending on how our mind process it.
“Whoo that was a lot.”
I’m glad that you feel free and safe to let your past troubling LE flow in ink here. Within our limitations, I/we are here to listen and give support.
I thought I was over my limerence but I just replaced one LO with another one after the first one got a promotion. The first LO was a younger coworker. The second LO is a lower level manager who is unavailable due to him being in a relationship. But I can’t stop thinking about the 2nd one. I have to interact with him at least 3 times a week either virtually or in person. He’s the most gorgeous man in the whole world. He’s tall, well dressed and a former college basketball player. He has a thin beard and I never liked men with beards before. He doesn’t have hairy arms or lots of graphic tattoos like most other men I know. He looks like a younger, more improved version of John Krasinski. The lyrics from REO Speedwagon’s “Don’t Let Him Go” describe that man to a T. I know I can never be with him in a million years. Is it stupid that I’m writing a novel involving both of those men? It’s the only way that I can “be” with them. I won an English prize in school and I was told that I should be a journalist. I have no social life and this is what happens when you’re single for too long.
To Hopeless:
It’s hard to know if the writing will help you work your LO out of your system, or if it will make things worse? Could go either way.
I like the way you describe LO, same way as I describe my LO, except mine is a tall, less-improved version of Anderson Cooper. Also the most gorgeous man in the whole world.
“I like the way you describe LO, same way as I describe my LO, except mine is a tall, less-improved version of Anderson Cooper. Also the most gorgeous man in the whole world.”
It’s so foreign to me when I read stuff like this. There have many LOs who have posted about the physical perfection of their LOs. I did not feel that way about my last two LOs. Now, they were both beyond hot, to me. The guys I was most attracted to at the time, hands down. No contest. But I could also objectively look at them and see they weren’t the hottest guys around. They were attractive/decent-looking guys but … they weren’t a young Brad Pitt.
I meant many limerents.
To Marcia:
I am too blind to see that my LO doesn’t look like Brad Pitt, nor do I care.
He’s older than Brad Pitt is now, anyway. I was shocked to hear that Brad Pitt is actually 62.
I am an old fossil, and my taste has changed as I have aged.
Hopeless,
I assume you’re a woman? and hope your goal here is to gradually turn your handle name to “Hopeful” (actually there was another one a while ago).
The arrival of your LO#2 did not push out LO#1 out of your head? Can you be in LE with several men at the same time?
It sounds like you’re current attracted more to Hot LO2 — his appearance, despite you never liked beard before. Without beard, J. Krasinski looked like a cupcake, with beard and aging, he looks manly and sexier (I haven’t watched any of his movie yet) . Beard changes a man’s aura for sure….
It sounds like that you haven’t romantically dealt with LO2 in reality, it’s more in your head, right? If so, writing a fiction based on a fantasy can inflame your LE pains and make you stuck even further in two “hopeless” LEs. Is that what you wish for?
If a true love is actualized in reality but breaks down (for whatever reasons), writing a fiction/book based on the true experiences can release the pain and simultaneously “immortalize” the true love, ie. George Sand and Alfred de Musset. She was supposed to have written a book about their stormy romance and thus kill it in her mind; meanwhile, he wrote another version of the same affair and then died of the broken heart .
My point: words have tremendous psychological power, especially coming from people who are a master of words. Be careful what you do verbally with those two unrequited LEs.
Creatively writing about a real, touching love, even if unfruitful, can heal the writer and glorify the sad romance. Readers can resonate and connect with it, who didn’t have failed relationship?! Or an immortalized LE, like Dante’s LE, starting at age of 9…
Hope you feel a bit hopeful!
https://mencarevirtual.shop/# MenCare Virtual
Viagra online price
sildenafil over the counter: MenCare Virtual – Sildenafil Citrate Tablets 100mg
Last night, I broke my usual rule of eating my own cooked food, and got a bowl of nice looking raw-tuna salad from a high-end supermarket. Within two hours of the intake, I couldn’t get out of the bathroom due to my first and worst food poisoning 💩
I always hated to go an ER, but the fear of passing out with sharply dropping bp (the historical record was 50~20), I had to call ambulance for help. My reliable emergency contact was/is happened out of town visiting a friend.
Spending 4 hours in a huge ER, I watched and heard angry yelling and weak screaming/whining for real physical pains. With the half-empty head spinning and the legs shaking, I wondered, could LE pains ever reach to such intensity of sufferings, in which the only thing real/existing is your physical pains/discomfort; everything else was/is a dream…
By the time I walked out of ER alone, I couldn’t help believe that LEs, at least reported here, are “luxurious malady” of physically healthy, or relatively “wealthy”, or idol people.…
On the way home around 3am, I went to that 24/7 supermarket to report the incident, with the receipt in my pocket and the ER tags still on the wrist. Two night-shift men repeatedly apologized and unexpectedly refunded me.
I’m fated to cook all my own meals, safe, fresh and tasty.… 😋
To Miss Snow:
What a scary experience! I am glad it was no worse. I am not trying to downplay it.
But the fact that you seem to be recovering so quickly is a wonderful sign.
Miss Norma 🏠,
Thank you for caring! 🫂
I was also lucky last night attended by a gorgeous female intern Doc (with big round, smiley eyes) who answered my call much faster than other extremely busy docs and indifferent nurses in ER.
I’m mostly healthy in general and physically fitter than most of my peers. Only my inherited low BP was often a concern, making me easily tired or dizzy during hot summer. When it drops to below 50, I felt literally empty (as if nothing in it) on the top half of my head, so my one hand often held my head from the back of my neck, as if the head would fall off. Doctors always tried to figure out how it feels like.
Even with big surgeries, I recovered super fast with minimum/no painkillers (hate all western meds). I simply can’t stay idol in bed or sofa chair. My body and mind need movements every single day, even mildly unwell.
I’m typing to you now with mild dizziness. Thinking/writing distract physical discomfort. 😊
Glad to hear you’re ok!
Thank you, 👩🦰 🏃♂️. 🫂
I’m still feeling weak, canceled this morning’s work.
Hi Snow,
Very glad that you got yourself help in time and that you recover quickly!
Try to drink lots of water, maybe with electrolytes, to regain what you lost.
Of course they should refund you and apologize!
Hi Mila 🔥 🍑 🍷,
I waited out for over 40 minutes before I called 911, when the ceiling just kept spinning as I was lying in bed and BP kept going down.
Thank you for telling me that I need to get some electrolytes water (I got a liter of IV in ER). Normally, I only have tea, coffee and plain water; no alcohol, no juice, no soda. I’m a half nun or an urban hermit. 😆
I went to the store just to ask them to do something about quality of their ready-to-eat food. Otherwise, someone else may end up in a war-zone like ER.
To Miss Snow:
Of course I care. You are a cherished member of this community, at least in my opinion. I guess I can’t speak for anyone else.
This is completely off-topic, but I just read that actress Hayden Panatierre died at 36.
I actually met her once, about 20 years ago. We were both in line for the dressing room at Victoria’s Secret. She was a tiny little thing, smaller than me, and I’m only 5-2. She was beautiful, gorgeous clothing and a Louis Vuitton handbag. I was surprised that she was shopping at Victoria’s Secret.
She was about the same age as my daughters. My twins turned 33 today and my oldest daughter just turned 37.
I never actually saw anything she was in, but I still remember meeting her in 2007.
I saw this too. Quite sad. I liked her style because she seemed to avoid headlines.
As if she was famous but doing her own thing. Staying under the radar. I admire that.
To MJ:
I just read that it was an overdose, possibly even deliberate?
I remember looking at her and thinking she had the world on a string.
I guess you never know about people.
I shouldn’t have assumed she was doing well.
I scanned the news quickly, one says that her doctor told her (parents?), when she was about 14, that she wouldn’t live to pass 35. I can’t forget this line…. There is other stuff about “stardom syndrome”?
She’s been having serious substance abuse and gave up her daughter to the father living in Europe.
If this is true, it’s still sad. She wouldn’t be the first if it was deliberate. The limelight at any level for Hollywood isn’t always what it’s cracked up to be. We see what they want us to see. Often it’s much darker on the inside.
Brittany Murphy was another one of my favs before she died. She couldn’t handle the lifestyle either. I’m also pretty sure we’ll lose Britney Spears at some point before her time is up too. She continues to do a lot of weird $#!+ and seems like a hot mess. You wish you could help them but you can’t.
I am still trying to process this. I never saw anything that she was in, but she made a strong impression on me when she was standing in line in front of me at Victoria’s Secret. I certainly knew who she was and recognized her instantly.
I remember thinking she was this golden goddess who had everything, and that I was a toothless hillbilly who had nothing.
Very faulty thinking on my part.
I remember I was also upset when Rob and Michelle Reiner were murdered in December. At that time, I texted LO for comfort, and he responded with a well-meaning but clueless comment. He didn’t get why I was upset AT ALL.
I was similarly tempted to text him last night, but when I remembered what he said about the previous tragedy, I was no longer tempted.
This is what I mean about “exposure therapy” helping me. I learn from LO’s less-than-stellar behavior. I have learned to say to myself, “What’s the point? You know he’s going to say something stupid.”
Sometimes I think the adage “be kind you never know what hidden battles a person wages” gets forgotten when it comes to celebrities. We just imagine that they have the “good life” (though what’s come to light in the last 5 years or so seems to be telling a different story).
As if to kick me in the balls, youtube decided to today, while I am minding my business and listening to music to throw up a video in my feed about John Denver’s death. You SOB of a algorithm. I think I will turn you off and go back to reading Henry Miller, tyvm.
There’s never a shortage of bad news in the world anymore. When my drinking kills me in my 60’s like Bukowski and Miller and ya’ll live on this hell on earth much longer, you won’t think me so crazy then as you do now. Seriously, I mostly kid. But gd the things that are going on in politics and Hollywood lately ….. or at least the things that are getting found out anyway …..
To Adam:
For whatever it’s worth, I don’t think you’re crazy.
Many days I struggle to find a motivation to go on living.
Let’s Chit Chat —
https://youtu.be/_vZ8LY1reMQ?si=JriWpmr2RpJG46CV
👩🦰 🏃 & 🧊 👱🏻♂️,
“Maitre’D I can work with. I know what I’d need to do in that role on a limerents’ cruise ship – ensure all the waiting stuff drop their pencils regularly.”
What are guests supposed to drop on an island or at a Luau, if they spot some hot waiting stuff or fellow guests❓
❄️,
I will resist any seedy answers, as the Maitre’D must help Norma to keep order on this boat.
Your 👁👁 – to look at whatever has caused the glimmer? (I don’t really recommend this!)
Your cutlery? Kind of in an “oh my gosh someone so attractive just entered the room that I’ve suddenly come over all twitchy” gesture?
🧊 🤵,
My 🍸 might shake a little but wont’ twitch; there’s a🗽🥻in the new immigrant’s head…
I’d have two loose, long shinning earrings at all times, dropping one in front of my limerent, and the other of my LO.
Since my English accent is too heavy for anyone’s 👂 to bear, possibly making them to drop their 🍷 or 🍸 or 🍺 glasses, So I will —
Sing to my limerent: Call me then — https://youtu.be/iBS7Md6BfF8?si=s7lfAavc_mXF_L-Q
Whisper my LO: Move On —- https://youtu.be/KTUZZ6nq_-Y?si=3v4EZddyDmQjbJ6R
😜
Marcia here … I’m moving the Fantasy Island/Love Boat posts over here.
L.E. … you didn’t follow the directions of the security post. So unlike you. 🙂
MJ and I get script approval. I want to have a good chunk of the funny lines. Think of me as the funny best friend in a rom-com. And I’ll need to look at MJ’s lines to make sure they don’t have any subtext. He won’t understand it. Boy doesn’t have a literary bone in his body. 🙂
Sorry Marcia,
I wasn’t paying real close attention. It’s a good move.
I find it funny you posted in the former reply I’m totally Isaac. Because at the opening credits he’s smiling and pointing directly at the camera..
I do that exact same thing almost nightly to a guy I work with. Whenever he sees me from across the way or in passing. I point at him (with two hands) and he points right back. It’s our way of acknowledging each other.
Don’t let me find out you’re a government operative, secretly disguised as one of my co-workers, trying to catch me up in some limerent escapade with one of the many ladies in my workplace (latinas primarily). Last thing I need is for you to report me and put me on Lwl probation. 😆
MJ,
My dear … either you’re paranoid or you’re self-important. Neither myself nor the government is monitoring the fantasies that go on in your head. 🙂
You don’t seem to get it … I will be busy doing my own thing on the cruise. What you do is your business. 🙂
As long as I get to be the one that says “de plane, de plane” I don’t even care if I get credit or not.
It sounds all like such a lot of fun, but I have no idea what you are all talking about since I don’t know any of the shows you seem to parody😂😭!
But I also want to say „de plane“, for whatever reason.
To Mila:
Don’t feel bad. Even though I was around for both of these shows, I never actually saw either one of them.
Hi Norma,
Thanks! It sounds fun though. But I think I‘m glad I’m out since I don’t want to go back to limerence world if I can help it.
Sitting around and watching waiters drop and pick up pencils, that could be a role for me though.
🔥 🍑 🍷 ,
This is going to be an updated, improvised version of the“Fantasy Island” —1977, (I’ve never seen it) where a bunch of liemrents get their current or future limerence fulfilled. Then they’d find out whether they are going to live happily ever after, or their LE would die; or anything in between.
So you can hop on a plane to this island as Mila, where you can be paired up with your XLO; the director or yourself can deliver your lines — whatever you want to say to and hear from your XLE.
Anything related to LE in this Fantasy Island is POSSIBLE, so dream Big!
It’s free on Tubi now —
Fantasy (1984, 7 seasons) — https://link.tubi.tv/eruFivXmI5b
The Love Boat — Happily Ever After (2022) — https://link.tubi.tv/PHBfM62mI5b
And there’s smiling happy Isaac pointing at Marcia..
😁👉🏻👉🏻
Cringe.. 😖
Hi Snow,
no horses could drag me now to enact any limerence or affair or whatever with XLO- no thanks!!
Nothing I would want less now..
Thanks for explaining to me though and have fun along you:)
Mila,
Wait, what’s that I hear? The siren song of the “Limerency Recovery Klaxon”wailing out there in the distance?
Maybe we should get you in as an after-dinner motivational speaker on the Boat?
All staff will be dropping pencils. It’s an Essential at interview.
LaR
“All staff will be dropping pencils. It’s an Essential at interview.”
Um … hello! The Love Boat is for single people. Staff included.
Ain’t nobody want to watch a partnered person dropping pencils. Your “dropping pencil” days are over. 🙂
So the love boat is only for single limerents? But the fantasy island also for partnered? Can I not sit around watching somebody drop pencils and shout „de plane“ from time to time, alternating with Adam? Can I at least watch Marcia dropping pencils and maybe feeding me a little piece of Hu chocolate now and then? Oh well. I guess it’s my fault for clumsily clambering out of the limerence boat.
Marcia,
“Ain’t nobody want to watch a partnered person dropping pencils. Your “dropping pencil” days are over.”
L.E. gave me a job as maitre’D. I won’t be dropping any pencils myself, but I have to consider our guests (a bunch of excitable single limmies). So havr hired waiting staff who have pencil dropping as a specialist skill.
Mila seems to have appeared on the boat. As cruise director, are you kicking her off or can we find her some work to do?
„Mila seems to have appeared on the boat. As cruise director, are you kicking her off or can we find her some work to do?“
I‘m not very good at cooking or cleaning, or navigating. Also, I get seasick quite easily. Basically useless, I‘d say. Maybe baking? Or just keep me around if you‘ll be stranded on an island without food, you could eat me in an emergency.
LaR,
“L.E. gave me a job as maitre’D.”
I don’t know why he did that. His production company is disorganized. Fantasy Island is the show for the partnered people … because that’s all they can do … fantasize. 🙂
I’m not sure why he gave me the part of Tattoo (who, if you don’t know, was the co-lead on Fantasy Island). But I’ll relinquish it. NOT to Adam, though, who asked for it. You can’t come on here intermittently and expect to land the co-lead. Talk about living in a fantasy! 🙂
Oh … you know who I invited as a guest on the Love Boat … your LO. We’ve agree to be each others’ wingwomen. 🙂
Marcia,
“I don’t know why he did that.”
He trusts me to exert a measure of order among the unruly rabble.
“But I’ll relinquish it.”
L.E. needs to be respected around here as our elder statesman. He very clearly wants you in the role.
“Oh … you know who I invited as a guest on the Love Boat … your LO. We’ve agree to be each others’ wingwomen.”
Oh good! I wondered why the restaurant had got so loud.
Just keep her away from MJ, will you though?
(On second thoughts, maybe she is a bit old for him 🙂 – sorry MJ!)
LaR,
“He trusts me to exert a measure of order among the unruly rabble.”
That’s all your partnered people want to do. Ruin the fun of the single people because you can’t have it anymore. 🙂
“L.E. needs to be respected around here as our elder statesman. He very clearly wants you in the role.”
I have no interest in being trapped on an island with a bunch of partnered people. Snore city. 🙂
“Oh good! I wondered why the restaurant had got so loud.”
You’re not worried? You should be. I’m going to find her a dude. She … um … told me she’s quite good at bending over and picking up pencils. 🙂
“Just keep her away from MJ, will you though?
(On second thoughts, maybe she is a bit old for him 🙂 – sorry MJ!)”
Oh, yeah, she’s way too old for him and she sounds like she has too much taste, anyway. 🙂
Marcia,
“That’s what all your partnered people want to do. Ruin the fun of the single people”
Good god woman, I’m just trying to make sure everyone on the boat gets a decent meal, to be fuelled up for other activities!! And see to it that all you single limmies get to see pencil drops.
“I have no interest in being trapped on an island with a bunch of partnered people. Snore city.”
I didn’t read from
L.E’s posts that only partnereds were headed for the island. Maybe this was a later production decision.
“You’re not worried? You should be. I’m going to find her a dude.”
She deserves a dude, and I never took my shot, so I can’t be against that.
Just as long as they don’t muck her around, or I’ll turn up in my 🚜 and mow them down.
“She … um … told me she’s quite good at bending over and picking up pencils.”
Confirmed.
“Oh, yeah, she’s way too old for him and she sounds like she has too much taste, anyway.”
She has been known to express liking for the more ‘mature’ man, to be truthful. Though I think she grapples more with that more as she gets older herself.
LAR,
“Good god woman, I’m just trying to make sure everyone on the boat gets a decent meal, to be fuelled up for other activities!! And see to it that all you single limmies get to see pencil drops.”
We don’t want you there!
“Maybe this was a later production decision.”
It was my decision. I don’t want the conversation to be overtaken by talks of home renovations and potato salad recipes.
“She has been known to express liking for the more ‘mature’ man, to be truthful. ”
Well, there’s chronological age and there’s maturity. One doesn’t imply the other.
Also, she told me she’s looking for … younger dude, tats, capable of an extended throw down. 😀
Adam,
The role of Tattoo was offered to Marcia. If it’s ok with her, it’s ok with me.
I will need a lot of candy and compliments to give up such a juicy role. I’m not just going to hand it over.
Let’s see if Adam can deliver. 🙂
I just had a weird dream about LO which I think is a good sign.
I was going to introduce him to some people, and he was wearing clothing from the 1970s and covered with dust. I was trying to brush the dust off of him, wondering how I could make him presentable.
Then I woke up.
ND,
You probably don’t need to drop coin on a gypsy to interpret that one…
To L.E.:
Like I said, a good sign.
Maybe there should be a LWL version of “The Addams Family.”
Miss Snow would of course play Morticia Addams. Wednesday and Pugsley could be played by Marcia and MJ. I would suggest my own LO for Lurch, since he’s so tall and skinny.
I would like to play Grandma, if nobody objects.
Miss Norma 🏠,
You really know how to challenge Miss ❄️ to have those two as Wednesday and Pugsley 🫣🤯 😶🌫️
Now, who is going to be Mr. Addams — absolutely devoted to and crazy about Mrs. Addams? If he’s not one chosen by Morticia, Miss Snow will remain as Morticia, but not Mrs. Addams. Then there would be no children.
You still need someone for Uncle, Fester.
To Miss Snow:
How about Adam to play Gomez?
Maybe L.E. for Uncle Fester?
Nope. Gomez has to be single.
Adam is devoted to Mamma.
To Miss Snow:
How about LaR for Gomez?
See my post below, LaR is NOT suitable for Gomez.
Here are two episodes of how Gomez met Morticia, wooed her (not her older sister), and married her. The rest is history.
https://link.tubi.tv/JoayH7AKL5b — Morticia’s Romance (1)
https://link.tubi.tv/q7RFhjKKL5b – Morticia’s Romance (2)
I’ll take Uncle Fester!
Who’s up for Cousin It?
Cousin Itt is so adorable!
On the second thought, a singleton female Limmie could apply for Gomez part, since this Morticia is the androgynous knucklehead. The only requiem that is that s/he is unattached and ready to marry/commit.
If Gomez is a female Limmie, she still marries Morticia and then they find a sperm donor LO and give birth to Wednesday and Pugsley.
Miss Norma house 🏠 is in charge of audition.
Hm, I always saw myself as more of a Morticia or a Wednesday. I may have to fight for the part. 😉
Wednesday is lovely!
I have to see who is coming to woo Morticia to decide whether to compete for the role.
To Serial:
Auditions would be fun!
Nope. He has SO and LO, 🎩 🐍!
Ideally, a singleton male limerent for devoted Gomez, whose nerves go on fire upon hearing Mrs. Addams” French.
L.E. for Uncle, Fester — 5 yrs boy within, is great!
To Miss Snow:
Who do you suggest for Gomez? I didn’t realize this role would be so difficult to cast.
I hope you don’t mind me putting my LO in as Lurch. He’s 6-3, skinny, and never smiles. He’s perfect.
I knew I wouldn’t be suitable! Gomez definitely needs to be single to woo his Morticia.
Besides, I have my work cut out trying to stop Marcia throwing me overboard the Love Boat, all while she’s hawking my LO around potential suitors …
Mías 🏠,
Your LO is perfect for Lurch!
In my memory, there are two other male singletons, besides MJ. both haven’t been around for a long while. I am unable to make anyone to come out to “woo” Morticia.
One needs to apply for the role first. Let’s wait to see if anyone would apply as, Mr. Addams. Of course, he/they need to be interviewed first.
😀
Had to move this thread to this coffeehouse. We got cut off at the knees on the other one. 🙂
LaR,
“There are LINES and lines. These obviously vary depending on the partnership. In mine, the LINE (discussed between SO and me in the past) is any kind of PA (which includes kissing someone). If I went over that line, I’d expect my SO to end it with me.”
So you discussed physical lines, but how detailed did you get about the emotional ones?
Yes, that’s what happened with my last big LO. A kiss, which sounds a bit chaste in description. It was one of the hottest moments of my life. Well, at least my middle-aged life. I haven’t been able to top it since. HOWEVER … if you boil whatever was going on between us down to its essence… We talked quite a bit at work, did have some one-one-on interactions occasionally (would go off alone and disappear together), flirted, and had one moment that got out of hand a bit. That’s it. Never contacted him outside of work. Never hung out with him outside of work. And the talks we had, with a few exceptions, weren’t particularly intimate. You’d break up a decades-long relationship (his marriage) … for that?
“SAnd I think you’ll say that letting myself get as emotionally close as I did to my LO is worse than a one off physical occurrence like a kiss. ”
It would be for me, personally. I can’t speak for your SO.
But that you didn’t tell her about the LE on your own initiative and that she asked you (because she sensed something was off — I think most SOs do, despite partnered limerents almost always saying how well they hide it) and you didn’t answer … well, at least answer completely. I would see all of those as a betrayal of trust. A repeated and ongoing betrayal. Not that kissing isn’t cheating. Or that a lot of what he said to me (the disclosure, the flirting) was also way over the line.
“That’s why most limerents don’t want to disclose it to their SO. It’s pretty embarrassing and not a good look.”
I think it’s more creature comfort. They don’t want to be living with an SO who is angry and hurt and confused.
“But it wouldn’t have disowned or reduced his responsibility if it happened that way round. Do you think a lot of men think that way – kind of ‘she came onto me, so it’s not my fault’ rationalising?”
In terms of my LO … Idk. Did he want me to take the responsibility (I made the first move) or was he just nervous? Was he conflicted about wanting to do it again (wanted to but knew he shouldn’t) or did he just want the ego validation of me coming onto him again? I can’t answer that.
In terms of men in general … if i were to guess … they feel less guilty if the woman initiates. Not so much that they don’t think it’s their fault.
“You are able to come up with good questions that encourage people to say more. ”
I am very adept at getting people to open up. 🙂 I didn’t so much do it with my last big LO but LO-lite … boy, did he talk.
“As I don’t know you beyond this place, I’m not sure. I think further back in the thread you did say you enjoyed gossiping with men 🙂”
I do. 🙂 Depends on the context. I had a co-worker the other day tell me something pretty personal about her daughter. I’m not going to go blabbing that. But were there some women who weren’t all that nice to me at the job where I met my LO? Yes. And did I like getting the juicy details of their previous sexual indiscretions from my gossip sources? You’re damn right. 🙂
“In life, I find the bad gossips out themselves eventually. There are people that are good at getting me to share things. But then I look at what level of gossip they tell me about other people. If they are doing it that way round, then why would my secrets be safe with them? They wouldn’t. People out themselves.”
I agree. The other people to be leery of are over-sharers. You just met them … and they’re telling you all their secrets. If they do that with you, won’t they overshare your stuff with other people?
“It’s the same with that female friend I keep saying about who dislikes my LO. I have to keep her closer than I’d ideally want to, as she is the sole person at work who knows anything concrete about the LE. And she WOULD use it to make life difficult for me if we fell out.”
I totally get that. For me, with this co-worker, we were able to patch things up after the falling out. But I never trusted her again. I was very pleasant … but kept my emotional distance. NEVER told her anything personal again. We also had mutual male acquaintances and I sensed she was jealous if they gave me attention. So I kept my distance from them, too. I didn’t want to set her off. I was that worried. She had proved to be volatile. She really blew up at me the day we had the falling out. For what was basically a very minor understanding. And she seemed like she could be vindictive.
“LO sometimes asks me what her problem is, and I do have to pretzel the answer to that. Now am I the one who sounds High School?”
Honestly … yeah. There could have been a million times you could have said something to her. I wouldn’t do it now. It’s too late. And I usually don’t think disclosure is a good thing if you’re partnered … but in your case, I think it may have (don’t know for sure) cut down on some of your angst and uncertainty (provided she gave you a somewhat clear answer — also a gamble).
But I’m also sensing you didn’t want to cut down on the angst and uncertainty. 🙂
“How about the idea that she might just have loads of good qualities of a friend that men appreciate?! Because I keep on telling you, she does 🙂 ”
Can’t two things be true at once? They like her but also want to bang her. 🙂
“Forget about me here, as we have done that debate to death – I am talking about other men who to the best of my knowledge don’t carry a torch for her.”
Slow your roll! It’s like you’re writing a romance novel! 😉
I didn’t say “carry a torch” for her! My goodness! But they’re probably attracted to her and wouldn’t turn down NSA sex.
I wonder how true that is for women with their male friends. I’d guess that fewer women feel that way about their male friends, but I have no way of knowing how that plays out, percentage-wise.
“SO has a theory that you either get on with a parent as a child, or as an adult, but it is unusual to get on at both stages.”
Quite possibly.
“That hasn’t been my experience – which has been that both parental relationships have changed up and down at different times in life. ”
I just meant that you usually have a certain level of comfort with the parentals. You grew up with them. There’s a certain kind of familial rapport. Totally different than really knowing and understanding each other and feeling you have an emotionally supportive relationship (as opposed to doing what you’re supposed to do to help them, say, with medical appointments, but there’s not a lot of closeness).
Marcia,
“We got cut off at the knees on the other one.”
Out until closing time again … I’m getting used to this. ☕️🍷
“So you discussed physical lines, but how detailed did you get about the emotional ones?”
Not that much. The main boundaries in place are about time – I am talking generally here, not about LO – what I can and can’t do, for how long, when (eg socialising after work for a bit is accepted, weekends usually aren’t). This has always been fuzzy because of my going into the relationship saying to her “I have several female friends” (which you might say she shouldn’t have accepted, but I also didn’t really put up for negotiation).
It’s difficult isn’t it – imagine SO and me actually had had that convo about emotional lines. What would you see being said in it – like how do people discuss where you *actually* put a line?! I guess it is to do with the level of sharing, but that becomes incredibly hard to unpack/say what it looks like in terms of every possible conversational topic.
“You’d break up a decades-long relationship (his marriage) … for that?”
I wouldn’t know until faced with it how I’d react. A kiss says clearly and unambiguously “I am prepared to get physically involved with you”. As compares to all the blurring around emotional lines as mentioned above. With emotional stuff, there is always plausible deniability. With a kiss, there isn’t. Here, I am trying to second guess why people wired like my SO would see a kiss as the bigger betrayal. But overall I am more towards your corner – I would struggle just as much or more with being emotionally betrayed (and yes, I do recognise my hypocrisy).
“But that you didn’t tell her about the LE on your own initiative”
Correct.
“and that she asked you (because she sensed something was off)”
Not directly in relation to LO – it was “are you ok?” type questions.
“I would see all of those as a betrayal of trust. A repeated and ongoing betrayal.”
I won’t argue with that – I know I was over lines.
“I think it’s more creature comfort. They don’t want to be living with an SO who is angry and hurt and confused.”
It’s complicated, especially after I’d properly committed in my head that nothing was going to happen. Imagine that conversation – how is it going to actually play out, and what is it going to achieve? Yes, it would have allowed me to ‘come clean’. But it could well also destroy another person’s confidence in their relationship and in themselves (my SO is not that self confident anyway). And for what? So I can ‘cleanse’? I did not want to inflict all that pain on her, for the sake of something that came to nothing. I’d rather learn my lessons from it and move on. I understand that you won’t probably agree.
She does know a light version of it, from a conversation more recently – I said something along the lines of “yes I know we (me and LO) spent too much time together for a while, and I’ve reined it in”. But I know that’s very different from a proper disclosure.
“Was he conflicted about wanting to do it again (wanted to but knew he shouldn’t) or did he just want the ego validation of me coming onto him again? I can’t answer that.”
Both can be true. He probably felt guilty and morally in the wrong, but if you’d pushed it harder, he might have let it happen again. Do you know if his relationship with his SO was in a healthy state or not?
“I had a co-worker the other day tell me something pretty personal about her daughter. I’m not going to go blabbing that. But were there some women who weren’t all that nice to me at the job where I met my LO? Yes. And did I like getting the juicy details of their previous sexual indiscretions from my gossip sources? You’re damn right.”
Definitely. It depends both on the priors, and on the nature of what is said, how anyone would react gossip-wise. Everyone has gossiping ‘in them’.
“You just met them … and they’re telling you all their secrets. If they do that with you, won’t they overshare your stuff with other people?”
That sort of person outs themselves very easily. Others are better at hiding their true colours for a longer time, until after trust is gained.
“For me, with this co-worker, we were able to patch things up after the falling out. But I never trusted her again. I was very pleasant … but kept my emotional distance.”
It’s similar. I don’t know if she knows it, but that friend’s tirade against my LO meant a permanent downgrade to the friendship. It has never been the same since, for me anyway.
“There could have been a million times you could have said something to her.”
But think how it would land. You’ve said many times how cringe it is being on the other side of an unwanted disclosure. And what would mine have sounded like – “I really like you, but not enough to do anything about it”. What is she supposed to do with that information if she had it? What possible good outcome to that conversation is there, especially when you consider we have to cowork closely? None. I think I did the right thing not to let those words see the light of day. Maybe not the right thing for myself – but in the bigger picture. I haven’t ever sensed any irritation about om LO’s part either, and my radar for those things isn’t bad.
“Can’t two things be true at once? They like her but also want to bang her.”
Possible 😀 But problematic for our previous theory that people are placed quite early on into either into a platonic friend basket or a non-platonic basket.
“Slow your roll! It’s like you’re writing a romance novel! I didn’t say “carry a torch” for her! My goodness!”
Lol 🤣
“Totally different than really knowing and understanding each other and feeling you have an emotionally supportive relationship (as opposed to doing what you’re supposed to do to help them, say, with medical appointments, but there’s not a lot of closeness).”
It varies. I know some people (women) who phone their parents 3 times a day. But I see what you’re saying. It’s weird – family are the only ones who can be relied on to be there for medical appointments etc, yet the relationship is often purely perfunctory and doesn’t extend far beyond that. I guess it depends on what happened earlier – patterns are set and are then hard to break.
Family (unlike friends) are the only people we don’t ‘choose’ – that has something to do with it.
LaR,
[“So you discussed physical lines, but how detailed did you get about the emotional ones?”]
“Not that much. ”
But aren’t the emotional ones more important to discuss as there’s probably a general consensus on what constitutes physical line-crossing?
“The main boundaries in place are about time – I am talking generally here, not about LO – what I can and can’t do, for how long, when (eg socialising after work for a bit is accepted, weekends usually aren’t). ”
I wouldn’t like this. It’s essentially relegating my time with friends to a couple of hours, on a weeknight. What can I do with that but go to dinner? Forget about doing anything fun with a friend, ever again.
And to be on the receiving end of that as a friend who may have gone out with you previously and done fun things … it kind of sucks.
I’m not saying I’d want an SO to be hanging out with his buddies all weekend, but if he wanted to go out with them on a Friday or Saturday night, I don’t see the big deal. As long as he and I are still spending time together on the weekend. Just give me a little notice ahead of time so I can make my own plans.
“This has always been fuzzy because of my going into the relationship saying to her “I have several female friends” (which you might say she shouldn’t have accepted, but I also didn’t really put up for negotiation).”
I didn’t say she shouldn’t; that’s for her to decide. I wouldn’t. Going out, alone, one-on-one, with another woman is too much like a date. And from my own personal experience (with 2 exceptions) … your side doesn’t see it as just a friendship.
“It’s difficult isn’t it – imagine SO and me actually had had that convo about emotional lines. What would you see being said in it – like how do people discuss where you *actually* put a line?! ”
Keeping in mind this is all hypothetical … I don’t need to hear about his attractions to other women and really, really, really don’t want to. I have mixed feelings about hearing about crushes. The last person I had a crush on … I definitely felt some level of infatuation and he did take up some space in my head, but he was a co-worker, and a day after I left the job, I didn’t care if I ever saw or heard from him again. It was that easy to get over. Is that how you experience a crush? But limerence … or “falling in love” with someone else or however you want to define it … someone who’s parked in your psyche, occupying an enormous part of your thoughts … yeah, I’d want to hear about that. Current person or past person.
“A kiss says clearly and unambiguously “I am prepared to get physically involved with you”. ”
No, it doesn’t! You’re so serious! 🙂
It could just mean: I went with it in the moment and then thought about it later and realized: What am I doing?
It could mean any number of things.
“With emotional stuff, there is always plausible deniability. With a kiss, there isn’t. ”
I’m not following you. Only the limerent would know for sure what their intention was. Who is doing the denying? And to whom are they denying? The limerent to the SO?
“I would struggle just as much or more with being emotionally betrayed (and yes, I do recognise my hypocrisy).”
I’m not saying I wouldn’t see a kiss as a big betrayal. I just need more context. It is possible to be physical with someone without deep feelings. It’s possible to have deep feelings without being physical.
“Not directly in relation to LO – it was “are you ok?” type questions.”
I mean … you lied by omission.
[“I would see all of those as a betrayal of trust. A repeated and ongoing betrayal.”]
“I won’t argue with that – I know I was over lines.”
I’m surprised she didn’t ask if there was somebody else. I don’t know if she asked if you were ok more than once or over what time period she was concerned/sensed something was off. But if it was going on for a while … I can’t imagine my mind wouldn’t eventually go there (not immediately but eventually).
“Imagine that conversation – how is it going to actually play out, and what is it going to achieve?”
If you’re asking me, personally … you’re giving me information I have the right to know because it may determine whether I want to stay in the relationship. Instead of making a unilateral decision for me, which is going to come across like trying save your own butt. Sorry. That’s how I’d see it. Now, would someone have a right to know about the kiss? Yes.
“She does know a light version of it, from a conversation more recently – I said something along the lines of “yes I know we (me and LO) spent too much time together for a while, and I’ve reined it in”. ”
She could have interpreted that as innocuously as you acknowledging you’d gone over the limits of your agreed-upon friend/socializing time. It’s way too vague.
“but if you’d pushed it harder, he might have let it happen again.”
How sexy do you think that is? Having to push for it?
“Do you know if his relationship with his SO was in a healthy state or not?”
He implied, months before that, that things weren’t going well, but we never discussed it again, so Idk.
[“You just met them … and they’re telling you all their secrets. If they do that with you, won’t they overshare your stuff with other people?”]
“That sort of person outs themselves very easily. ”
It’s one of my blind spots. I like having personal, intense conversations so I have to be careful because these kinds of people can suck me in easily. They seem vulnerable and open at first.
“It’s similar. I don’t know if she knows it, but that friend’s tirade against my LO meant a permanent downgrade to the friendship. It has never been the same since, for me anyway.”
Do you still consider this person a friend? I didn’t consider my co-worker anything but a work friend at the time of the blow up. Long before that, I had tried to make outside-of-work plans with her, and she agreed, then cancelled with b.s. excuses) … but after the blow up … I didn’t even consider her work friend. Just someone I had to tiptoe around.
“You’ve said many times how cringe it is being on the other side of an unwanted disclosure. ”
It is, but most of the unwanted disclosure I’ve experienced has been early in the friendship. They weren’t long-term friends I knew well.
“And what would mine have sounded like – “I really like you, but not enough to do anything about it”.”
We’ve talked about this. 🙂 You were SOOOO concerned about backing away from the friendship. That was the reason you had to continue to hang out with her, remember? 🙂 I probably would have said, “I have developed feelings for you beyond friendship and I think it’s best if we keep our friendship limited to work. I hope you understand.” I don’t see why a long-term friendship couldn’t withstand that level of disclosure. And that serves two purposes … you’re being honest about why you need to back away instead of confusing her with some b.s. like the slow fade (and you did need to back away, let’s face it :)) … and there’s a possibility she may have disclosed her own feelings, whatever they were (platonic or otherwise). That may have cut down on the rumination and the desire to know. And if she didn’t discuss her feelings, just said, “Ok, I understand,” or something like that … at least then you’d know you’d probably never get an answer out of her. Could have helped with the rumination and desire to know.
But again, this is all hypothetical.
“But problematic for our previous theory that people are placed quite early on into either into a platonic friend basket or a non-platonic basket.”
It works that way for some people, yes. I mean, I’ve heard of people going out on a few dates with someone where it’s not an immediate “yes” but they liked the person and had a lot in common and then interest grew.
Now, to be clear, if it’s a “no” right away … probably can’t change that.
“I know some people (women) who phone their parents 3 times a day. ”
That would be a dealbreaker for me. Unless the parents were ill and/or were in some kind of crisis and needed help.
“It’s weird – family are the only ones who can be relied on to be there for medical appointments etc, yet the relationship is often purely perfunctory and doesn’t extend far beyond that. ”
I wouldn’t go that far. I think friends can help, to an extent. But the bulk of “carer” duties will fall to family. Which makes absolutely no sense to me if one has, as you wrote, a perfunctory relationship. Why not put the people who know and understand you best and with whom you have the best relationship at the center of your life? I am well aware I’m in the minority of one on this.
Marcia,
“But aren’t the emotional ones more important to discuss?”
Yes, but they are harder to pin down clear lines on. At least without it seeming like you are trying to control or impose some sort of contract on the partner.
[eg socialising after work for a bit is accepted, weekends usually aren’t]
“I wouldn’t like this. It’s essentially relegating my time with friends to a couple of hours, on a weeknight … And to be on the receiving end of that as a friend who may have gone out with you previously and done fun things … it kind of sucks.”
To be fair, it isn’t as rigid as I might have made it sound last time. I’m also a consenting part of it, as we both work long hours and have demanding local family members, so it takes conscious effort to make time for ourselves. The weekend thing is more a rule of thumb than a red line. Especially if I give enough notice (big ‘if’, as I am quite last minute compared to her), then a weekend plan now and again is fine. And sometimes I’ll do something I want to anyway and take the flea in my ear about it. It’s all a balancing act. My friends are important to me, and I learned the hard way in a previous relationship why it is best not to put friendships on ice for the sake of a partner.
“The last person I had a crush on … I definitely felt some level of infatuation and he did take up some space in my head, but he was a co-worker, and a day after I left the job, I didn’t care if I ever saw or heard from him again. It was that easy to get over. Is that how you experience a crush?”
No. All my crushes across life have been like limerence-light.
[“A kiss says clearly and unambiguously “I am prepared to get physically involved with you”.]
“No, it doesn’t! You’re so serious! It could just mean: I went with it in the moment and then thought about it later and realized: What am I doing?”
But what about if you’re partnered like the person was who we were discussing here? You’ve said to me many times when I’ve tried to pretzel about my LE “you knew what you were doing”. And you’d be right – I did. I think he did too.
[“With emotional stuff, there is always plausible deniability. With a kiss, there isn’t. ”]
“I’m not following you. Only the limerent would know for sure what their intention was. Who is doing the denying? And to whom are they denying? The limerent to the SO?”
The limerent. Maybe to any of themselves, the SO or the LO. My point was that almost anything that isn’t physical, or a direct disclosure, has deniability or is open to the limerent trying to rewrite it. But a kiss isn’t – a kiss is a kiss.
“I’m surprised she didn’t ask if there was somebody else.”
In all honesty, I don’t think she wanted it ‘out there’.
“I don’t know if she asked if you were ok more than once or over what time period she was concerned/sensed something was off.”
She asked no more than a handful of times over about an 18 month time period, so it wasn’t like I was leaking it to a level she noticed every day.
“If you’re asking me, personally … you’re giving me information I have the right to know because it may determine whether I want to stay in the relationship. Instead of making a unilateral decision for me, which is going to come across like trying save your own butt.”
Fair. But also if it was bothering her enough, she had the right and the opportunity to press me into a conversation about it, and never did.
“How sexy do you think that is? Having to push for it?”
Ugh – quite icky when you put it like that.
“It’s one of my blind spots. I like having personal, intense conversations so I have to be careful because these kinds of people can suck me in easily. They seem vulnerable and open at first.”
You already said it. ‘How much do they share about other people?’ is a big benchmarking question.
“Do you still consider this person a friend?”
Borderline. She is more invested in the friendship than I am. The arguments for – the history between us and maybe that she saw through the bs of my LE and called me out on it, when literally nobody else did. The argument for no – the sheer amount of times I had to repeat that she needed to stop the behaviour (hating on LO, to me and borderline to LO’s face). I had to take that right up to the line of “stop it or I will no longer be friends with you” to make her stop it. I didn’t like having to be that direct (can you believe?!).
” I don’t see why a long-term friendship couldn’t withstand that level of disclosure.”
I think it probably could withstand it. I have got more confident about that as time has gone on. I don’t believe it would come as the greatest shock to her either.
“And that serves two purposes … you’re being honest about why you need to back away instead of confusing her with some b.s. like the slow fade”
If and when I do back completely away, then disclosure would be the only fair way to do it. She deserves more than any bs fade version. The only other way is a more natural fade that sometimes happens to friendships when one or other moves away.
How’s it going with her on the love boat by the way? Still hanging around having larks with MJ or have you found her that young tatted guy who never sleeps?
“Why not put the people who know and understand you best and with whom you have the best relationship at the center of your life? I am well aware I’m in the minority of one on this.”
I agree with you on the principle. But I still find that family are the only ones who can be relied on to turn up if you’re sick, need care etc – or vice versa if they’re sick etc.
Stay tuned for “The Beverly Hills Limerents:”
Jed: Adam (?)
Granny: ND
Elly Mae: Marcia
Jethro: MJ
Mr. Drysdale: L.E.
Miss Hathaway: Snow
Not to be confused with “Real Limerents of Beverly Hills.” That show would just be depressing.
I’m toying with “Friends-LwL” and “How I Met Your Mother – LwL.” Casting the limerent roles is easy, it’s the non-limerent foils that’s harder. I have MJ as Ross, Snow as Phoebe, and Marcia as Rachel. But, I think MJ would make a better Joey. I also think Marcia would make a better Monica.
Please not Marcia as Monica. Monica gets really annoying later in the show, I wouldn’t see that on Marcia.
*Wouldn’t want to see that.
LE:
You’re earning MAJOR points with me lately. Casting me as the young, hot blonde on 3 shows (Elly May, Julie, Rachel). I’ll take it. 🙂
But in all seriousness, I don’t think I’ve ever watched a full episode of Friends. And I found all 3 male characters very bland and completely interchangeable. Couldn’t tell one from the other. Not one of them was appealing.
“But in all seriousness, I don’t think I’ve ever watched a full episode of Friends.”
That makes two of us.. ✌🏻😆
MJ,
Of the crew on this site, it looks like it’s just going to be you, me and LaR’s LO on the Love Boat.
That’s ok. The others can’t HANDLE the Love Boat. 🙂
“it’s just going to be you, me and LaR’s LO”
Marcia
I always wanted to be a part of a 3-some.. 😁
MJ,
“I always wanted to be a part of a 3-some.. 😁”
Not a good idea. You know you’re going to disappoint one woman. Why set yourself up to disappoint two? 🙂
“You know you’re going to disappoint one woman. Why set yourself up to disappoint two? 🙂”
Marcia
Thats how you feel? You sound a lot like my ex. I remember bringing home XL sized condoms once and she asked me, what are you gonna need those for? 😂
We still talk about it and laugh. 😆
MJ,
“I remember bringing home XL sized condoms once and she asked me, what are you gonna need those for? 😂”
No, she got excited for a minute. She thought you brought home some other dude for that threesome. 🙂
I was actually suggesting that at one point, but she had to reciprocate and let me bring a Woman home sometime. My choice, but she also wanted her to be cute and playful.
Looking back, it was only a band aid on the bigger problems. I was an idiot and will regret it forever.
As I recall, you once asked me to stop responding to your posts…
Good, God, man! That was what? THREE years ago ?
Let it go. I don’t even remember that I wrote that … until you intermittently keep reminding me.
LE
You know you’ve ruffled the old lady’s feathers when she fires that directive. I think she’s said it to me too. Maybe once or twice..
If it wasn’t here, it was probably in the other forum. 😄
👩🦰 🏃♂️,
I will take the role of Miss Hathaway and Phoebe, although I never watched the two shows, perhaps some clips of “Friends” in my doctor’s waiting rooms.
👩🦰 🏃♂️,
The singleton prince, Peter, comes to Fantasy Island, so I’ll cast as the local new immigrant, Chris/Snow, to meet this deckhand/prince and then go with him to his kingdom, to live happily ever after!
https://link.tubi.tv/uGfb0NXjP5b — Fantasy Island (S1E3) The Prince and Sheriff
Oh sure LE, you get to be the well dressed, affluent, educated and well employed banker and I get to be the rich redneck. I guess that means I can afford a lot of moonshine though. Okay fair enough.
To Adam:
What are you complaining about? Jed is the best part.
Miss Hathaway is hot for Jed….
Very flattered to be cast as Granny. I actually met Irene Ryan once. I was one of the witnesses to her will.
…Now *there’s* a revelation! 😮
So I had run into an interesting meme on a post on youtube. The gist of the OP was regarding the Tobey Maguire Spider-man films.
Son: What does it mean to be a man dad?
Me: Recognizing that Peter should have picked Ursula over MJ.
So I scroll through the comments and someone made the comment…
“And realizing she could do better than Peter.”
Which got me thinking, and making a youtube comment to the same effect, that really Ursula’s way of seeing Peter was the same lens that Peter saw MJ. They both idealized the other. Probably for different reasons. But Ursula was there for the whole of the SM trilogy and saw how Peter treated her, her father, and most anyone else, especially in SM3.
Comic geek tangent incoming …. for those that didn’t possibly see it in the SM3 movie, the symboite does use the host for it’s own means. But it is a matter of persuasion depending on the host. With humans it is more difficult than it is with say, an animal. Or phenomenal show of persuasion like when the Carnage symboite used the Silver Surfer as a host in the pages of Amazing Spider-man. The symboites look for more willing hosts. Hosts that are more easily to manipulate. That’s why in both the SM movie and in the comics Eddie Brock (while he was a much more “colorful” character in the comics) was the Venom symboite’s first chosen host. Why the Carnage symboite turned to Cletus Cassidy a serial killer for his first host. The easier to control the better to use. The symboites, like alcohol, accentuate things that are already within the person/host than try to outright change them to use them for their purposes.
Back on point …. Yet, she in her mind, decided to still see potential in him. Even though in the previous two movies, he wasn’t necessarily $hitty to her, but he was certainly dismissive of her and acted as if she was beneath him because he was too fixated with MJ. Who ironically treated him the same that he did Ursula. The only time MJ became fascinated with Peter when it was found out he was Spider-man.
I’m sure Sam Rami wasn’t trying to dive as deep as limerence, but it kind of struck me as very similar. Ursula; if only I could be the woman that Peter would notice. Peter; if only everyone would know I could land MJ than they wouldn’t think of me as a nerd.
Both idealized their LO, but both did it directly for different reasons, but in the end the same; they both saw their LO as a prize they didn’t feel worthy of because they choose to idealize them and not seen them as the flawed people that they were.
I think Ursula is closer to home for me in my limerence, because while I did see LO as a prize I was unworthy of, it wasn’t to flaunt her or for status. It was because I saw her as the perfect woman she “was” no matter the nature of our relationship might have turned out to have been.
Anyway I though it was a interesting take on just scrolling through my youtube feed for new music suggestions.
I spent some time with LO, and he continues to disappoint. What else is new?
I mean, that’s my goal, so that’s a good thing.
He told me a lengthy story about his Catholic high school. He went into great detail about the girls’ uniforms, and I had to interrupt him to remind him that *I* went to a Catholic girl’s high school, and I know all about Catholic uniform skirts.
It’s as if he’s just meeting me for the first time and knows nothing about me. This is after three-plus years and multiple, lengthy discussions.
I realize that I am repeating myself. However, I have nobody to talk to and it helps me to write this down.
I’ll go back to the over-70 table now and have a non-alcoholic beverage.
That is a good thing Dear Norma. LO remembered what I said (at the time we were together, probably not now after almost 5 years) and that was the bait, not saying she was intentionally baiting me, that kept me hooked. It’s nice, in any type of relationship when people remember what you’ve said about yourself. It shows they are actually listening and care. It seems that your LO just likes the sound of his own voice. And that’s a shame as I enjoy talking and listening to you. And do my best to remember the things about you that you tell me.
But I don’t remember if you told me you we went to Catholic school. So pardon me while I imagine young Miss Norma in a Catholic school outfit before I have to go to church myself this morning …..
To Adam:
The only good thing about uniforms is it helped to prevent envy toward the more well-to-do students. Also, no indecision about what to wear. I wasn’t a clothes horse anyway.
I didn’t mind it. Our uniforms were gray pleated skirts, gray blazers and white blouses.
Norma,
“I had to interrupt him to remind him that *I* went to a Catholic girl’s high school, and I know all about Catholic uniform skirts.”
I might not remember this.
I’m not young so I’ve met a lot of people. That’s a lot of stories I’ve heard and a lot of stuff ratting around in the old brain. 🙂 I can’t remember every single detail. And it depends on the level of friendship and how often I see them. If it’s a BFF I talk to every day, yes, I will remember the details.
If it’s a friend I check in with every 2 or 3 weeks and see every couple of months (this is just an example) … I’ll remember the big picture stuff. They got a new job, a new boyfriend, they have trouble with their family, etc., and I’ll ask about it. But I may not remember really specific details. I don’t interact with them enough and, frankly, I’m not invested enough. We’re not close enough for me to remember everything. I wouldn’t expect them to remember really specific things about me. But to have a basic idea of what’s going on with me? Yes. And to ask and show some genuine interest.
To Marcia:
The reason I was surprised is that LO and I were both abused by nuns and we have both struggled with “Catholic guilt.” We have talked about these issues multiple times and I would think he’d remember. We both have a lot of pain and anger over things that were done to us in grade school by nuns.
There was a strong emotional charge to our discussions, and people have more of a tendency to remember something that has a strong emotional charge.
It sounds like he either is not a good listener, has a bad memory or wasn’t as affected by the conversation as you were, which I’m sorry to say is a hallmark of limerence. It’s a very hard thing to accept.
To Marcia:
It’s probably all of those things. I tend to remember a lot of details that LO has told me, and I have been continually dismayed that he doesn’t remember much that I tell him. I am sure that my limerence is a big factor.
I remember the first time I commented on the anniversary of his dog’s death, he looked shocked and said, “How on earth did you know that?” Maybe he thought I was a witch?
Well, I REMEMBER. It was a traumatic event for him and I recollected the date. Not that difficult. But LO was amazed. He was also amazed that I knew that actor Jonathan Winters and I share the same birthday. Again, not that difficult.
ND:
“I am sure that my limerence is a big factor.”
You think? 🙂
I have a family member who I cannot seem to not be disappointed by when we interact, even though I am well aware of what to expect from them. In the last month or so, I’ve been doing LC — no initiation of contact, waiting a while to respond to their texts, keeping my responses short. So far, I seem to be less disappointed. It’s early to tell, but we’ll see. You might want to try it. (No, I don’t want to hear a defense of your strategy . :)).
To Marcia:
Your comment reminds me of a strategy I once learned from a therapist that I have found helpful. The therapist suggested that you think of an animal that the problematic person reminds you of.
Animal behavior is pretty predictable, but we expect people to do better. But people are also pretty predictable.
I will give as an example another neighbor who I like, but I need to treat with caution, because he flies off the handle easily. In my mind, I see him as a nervous chihuahua. You can always count on these dogs to be easily excited and to go into frenzies of barking. My neighbor is a lot like that. When I remind myself to think of an excitable dog, I am less surprised when he acts the way he does.
To ND:
“I will give as an example another neighbor who I like, but I need to treat with caution, because he flies off the handle easily. In my mind, I see him as a nervous chihuahua. You can always count on these dogs to be easily excited and to go into frenzies of barking.”
Or pees on the rug. 🙂
“My neighbor is a lot like that. When I remind myself to think of an excitable dog, I am less surprised when he acts the way he does.”
I like that strategy. This person is a snake … sits there creepily, not moving, and then just strikes out of nowhere. 🙂 Or an elephant … Remembers every.stupid.thing.you’ve.ever.done.and.randomly.mentions.it. 🙂 For no reason. And it was from 30 years ago! Stupid thing you’ve done in general. Not stupid thing done to them.
The person you no longer are … they keep wanting to shove her in your face. Because they haven’t bothered to get to know the current you.
It’s not so much being surprised by their behavior. Because I’m not surprised. It’s being irritated and annoyed. I know what to expect. I know what they’re going to do. It’s like an LE in that it’s very hard for me to completely get my head around how limited/superficial the relationship is, and how they seem fine with that.
To Marcia:
I guess if the person doesn’t surprise you, the animal strategy wouldn’t be very helpful.
I suppose I should choose an animal for LO, which I have not done.
Of course, he LOOKS like a Big Gay Giraffe, but that’s not the purpose of the exercise. He ACTS more like a snooty, aloof cat who acts like he wants to be petted, then turns and walks away when I try to do so.
LO was much more like a skittish cat around me (much like our real cat at home). When she wanted my attention it was important and me being the limerent old fool would drop whatever and give it to her. But if I tried to give her attention by say following up on something she told me, she’d sometimes act like she was backed into a corner and I’d back off and scold myself for being to clingy.
To Adam:
That does sound like a cat. What I like about the exercise is that we seem to be more easily able to understand a cat’s behavior, and accept it for what it is, than to be able to accept a person.
I have found it to be helpful over the years, although I don’t do it consistently. I have known LO for more than three years, and it never occurred to me to do the animal comparison until now.
I thought about LO #2 as a feral cat that hangs around your house, disappears for awhile, and kept coming back.
Feed it once and you can’t get rid of it.
I used to picture my mother-in-law as a Myna Bird. She was loud, difficult, and the animal comparison helped me to cope.
Good, goo, g’joob…
https://youtu.be/t1Jm5epJr10?is=9nQ5ZJ0tcT1u6Put
To L.E.:
Funny, I never thought of that song when “naming” my father-in-law.
He certainly wasn’t anywhere near as entertaining or engaging as I picture John Lennon being.
That was the problem. He would refuse to engage for lengthy periods, and then make some loud, strange noise.
If you lovely folks want some Beatles in your life, start here:
https://youtu.be/a4Ujexj9YGs?is=NX15wYv3aOpefS2t
Great pick, LaR. My sisters used to play this non-stop throughout the seventies and eighties.
Even a cat can appreciate it.
CatCyclist,
The beginning couple of minutes and last 5 minutes of it are haunting.
I had as much of an argument as I am capable of with my LO today. She thinks cats are best, I think dogs are best. Deal breaker. If only I had figured that out 3 years ago.
To LaR:
At the risk of sounding like an idiot, why is that a deal breaker?
Norma,
It’s not a deal breaker; I was just being stupid. I don’t know if it’s the same on your side of the pond, but on mine we tend to attach ridiculous importance levels to the question “which are better, cats or dogs?”
To LaR:
Ah, I see. You were exaggerating to make a point.
I have never been privy to a cat/dog debate, but I am sure it happens, and I imagine it HAS been a deal-breaker in some situations.
LaR,
LO #4 had two dogs. She once said that she wouldn’t date a man who owned a cat.
I wanted to reply that there were likely some men who wouldn’t date a woman who said that, even if they didn’t own a cat, which I do. But, I didn’t.
I’m gonna go off on a tangent … Dear Norma’s post reminded me of when my mother in law had a macaw as a pet. I always hated visiting at that time because day or night, covered or not that bird just wouldn’t shut the hell up. I couldn’t sleep. One day my wife told me it somehow escaped outside and was gone and I was elated. Quiet once again when we visited and also one other reason ….
I hate seeing birds and aquatic life caged. Birds can fly anywhere their wings can carry them. They literally have the entire world in front of them. But you’re going to put them in a tiny cage for your own amusement. It shows how selfish we can be as humans. Get a domesticated pet. They actually like being around humans and have somewhat become dependent on humans. At least when some dumbass tries to cage a 20 ft anaconda and it breaks out and kills you I don’t have to have any sympathy the animal can at least defend itself unlike most birds on their own.
The last I read I did I think it’s something like 5% or less of the world’s oceans have been mapped by scientists. Yet oceans and fresh water bodies cover 70% of the world. And you are going to take half a dozen aquatic animals and shove them all in a 20 gallon aquarium? I’m betting many aquatic life probably themselves barely transverse more than 5% of the ocean or lake/river they live in. But yet they have the freedom to set up camp where they like it or roam as much as they want. Okay I’m done ranting.
To Adam:
I wonder about that macaw and whatever happened to it? I worry about escaped pets who are not in their natural environments and whether they can fend for themselves okay?
This is really bringing back some memories. I used to regard my father-in-law as a walrus to help me cope with his odd behavior.
Dear Norma
I hope it is still well. I meant the bird no ill will. Though I’d imagine being domesticated and outside of its natural environment that it was noticed and perhaps recaptured. Maybe even taken to a bird sanctuary if captured by humane people. We’ll never know.
I’ve had snakes for pets most my life. It’s probably been 10 years now since the last one we had, a ball python, escaped when we were on vacation and was never recovered. People, since snakes are a common fear, would ask why I’d want a snake for a pet. My usual response was “they’re quiet”. Birds not so much haha
To Adam:
I actually like snakes. I never got one because of the feeding issue.
Sir 😽🚴♂️,
Bringing our previous discussion on friendships over, as the previous coffeehouse has closed its doors on the rowdy patrons. Apologies for my delay in replying to it.
Thank you for sharing what’s made various of your friendships tick – I understand all of that, and it isn’t dissimilar to my own experience where the older I get, the luckier I am if I add one new friend per decade without getting limerent for them 😂
I have never been in favour of the idea of blocking your YLF. So I guess the difficult questions are still the ones in my penultimate message to you in the last coffeehouse.
I guess the difficulty for me as an observer / confidante is that I can tell you until I’m blue in the face that your retirement is an opportunity to walk away from the LE and stride purposefully into the sunlit uplands of the next bit of your life ….. but then I think about how I’d feel in that situation, and know it would be messy and that I’d be going through various bargaining loops with myself. Like I’ve said before, if it is ever helpful to play sone of it out here, then do. I don’t mind if it gets circular (like a cat chasing its tail!).
When do you fully retire – ergo, when do you have to face that conversation or written communication with her? How are you feeling and thinking about it now?
Sir LaR,
I’m going to answer your last question first. I have pushed my retirement date back to about 4-6 months from now, in order to allow enough time for me to reach all of my work goals, or at least the most important ones, to be able to deliver a quality product – one that doesn’t have too many loose ends. This comes after discussing this with my colleagues. Also, given that my wife will continue to work for a while, it will lessen the period in which only one of us is fully retired, which can be a frequent source of conflict with couples. I don’t think it will lead to any more interactions with my YLF because she is scheduled to go on rotation soon (and might already be on it), which would mean no more in person interactions with her. Recall that we have never had scheduled interactions anyway; they were all a by-product of “running into each other” while I was meeting my colleagues, which occurred only about four times a year over the past year.
As to “your (my) retirement is an opportunity to walk away from the LE and stride purposefully into the sunlit uplands of the next bit of your life”. Given that we are in agreement about not blocking YLF, to walk away from the LE immediately and completely would require me to ghost her if she were to reply in the future. This would be tantamount to blocking her – in effect, a distinction without a difference. My strategy, instead, is to keep any future communications short, infrequent, and unemotional. I fully appreciate and am willing to accept the risks involved here. However, I have discovered over the years, not only with this LE but previous ones, that in-person interactions are far more destabilizing for me than electronic ones. Is this bargaining? Maybe, even probably. But I fear that if I were to choose a more forceful, abrupt ending to the LE, I would forever regret my actions.
As to “having to face that conversation or written communication with her”, I find that this is just opening up another opportunity for rumination, so I’ve decided to worry about it until the time comes.
And finally, I will try to answer the difficult questions in the penultimate message, which I assume is “What does she ‘stand for’? But this is the crux of limerence really, isn’t it? Our mind projects ‘our stuff’ onto another person, and we gain a rose-tinted vision of them.” While there are a multitude of reasons for the potency of this LE, I strongly believe that the most important one is that she appears on her way to fulfilling a dream – that of a spectacular research or academic career – in a way that I never did. I feel that I reached the pinnacle of my “career” at ages 17 to 20; the rest has always fallen short. But YLF, at ages 20 to 23 (the period I have known her), keeps blowing past all things possible by a normal human being in ways that never cease to amaze me. Just as I’m trying to convince myself that I’m exaggerating, “projecting my stuff” onto her, she provides me with yet another example; in fact, this happened just last month. You see, it was always drilled into us by our parents, grandparents, uncles and aunts, great uncles and aunts, that being a brilliant scholar is the most glorious thing in the world. In fact, to a degree (no pun intended), that programming continues even today. Perhaps being de-programmed from that mindset, and not just from the LE, might be the more formidable task.
BTW, I used to rather enjoy watching my cat chase her tail. That might be something I’ve learned all too well.
Thanks for reading.
CatCyclist,
I noticed in one of your other posts that you’re off on vacation soon, so I thought I’d just rattle off a reply and acknowledge your message before that.
Thanks for answering my questions so honestly. It’s exciting for YLF if she potentially has that kind of amazing career ahead of her, and continues to ‘smash down them walls’. Re what you said about feeling your career peaked early, fair enough if you feel that way, but I’m sure to an objective observer you have achieved some good things since. I have changed what I see as ‘achievement’ at work over the course of my career, and realised that it isn’t always what can be measured by society’s yardsticks that matters, so much as ‘do I feel I was true to myself today and made some positive difference?’. It sounds cheesy but there it is.
I get a vibe, re limerence, that you are good at considering all the trade-offs to reach solutions for yourself, and also have a good bank of knowledge about how these things went in the past to draw on (what worked, what didn’t, to end LEs). Everything you said in that message makes sense, from prolonging retirement a bit, to not ruminating more on the goodbyes for now. Maybe those extra months will help you get more clarity of thought about it all, even without forcing it. There may be posters on this site who’d tell you to block or ghost her, but I won’t be one of them based on what I have heard from you.
Fun story about cats – I used to have a cat that behaved like a dog. He would chase sticks, follow us if we tried to leave home and walk anywhere (even for miles – was a nightmare really, eg if we needed to get a bus on the main road). SO does not like cats. Confession, we are both more dog people. But I think cats have their moments too … when they’re not being judgey!
I hope you both have a great break.
LaR,
Thanks for such a prompt reply.
When I last posted, I was actually a bit nervous, thinking that you’d push back. But now I feel some relief.
Interestingly, your statement, “I have changed what I see as ‘achievement’ at work over the course of my career”, really resonates with me. I have been attempting such a transformation in my thinking as well, partly in tandem with my therapist. The idea is to just start behaving like the person you’d like to be, in all spheres of life – work, family, friends – in short, living true to one’s values, making tiny contributions along the way. In a weird sort of way, my relationship with YLF is one small part of that – having some small but meaningful impact on both her life and mine, but only to the extent that either one is open to it, and never in an insistent or obsessive manner, and certainly not in a way that might conflict with more important commitments to my wife and family.
There’s kind of a paradox in my idealization of YLF based on her talents and achievements. Initially, I really felt the burden of appearing just as impressive to her as she is to me. For example, I felt sort of jealous towards her “real” mentors – her advisors and professors, whom I imagined to be more accomplished than myself. However, over the last year or so, it has become increasingly apparent that she seems to value me for things other than my accomplishments, such as our random, casual conversations – which are sometimes intellectual, but just as often not. I do believe that she especially valued me for paying attention to her when she was new and lonely, and she was glad to reciprocate that attention, in a remarkably focused way. One of the recurring themes of our conversations is hobbies – directly quoting her, “what hobbies are you going to start in retirement?” And she likes to talk about her new hobbies as well. The way she leads such a balanced life, and never lets her talents and successes get to her head, are what I find truly endearing about her.
As always, thanks for helping me to organize my thoughts and stabilize my emotions. I hope I’ll be able to help you in the future as well.
Now, off on my vacation with my wife…
I want to say something about LO that I am having trouble finding the words for.
I apologize for posting so much, but as I have mentioned previously, my best girlfriend is incommunicado, and my other best girlfriend is having health problems and is not up to talking.
Which leaves you guys. And regardless of what you think of me or my LO, at least I know you understand.
I mentioned earlier that LO was talking about Catholic High School. It turns out that this past weekend was his fifty-year HS reunion. He talked a lot about the old friends he planned to see, and was looking forward to it. I started getting a little uncomfortable, not because he said anything wrong, but because I learned that he was Class President (of course he was) and was one of the most popular kids in school. He was in a group of friends where three boys all had the same name, and their girlfriends all had the same name, so the couples were indicated by BF/GF 1, BF/GF 2 and BF/GF 3. LO was with his girlfriend for ten years until he realized he couldn’t marry her because of being gay. He was also popular with UNPOPULAR kids because he refused to be unkind to anyone. He developed a small following of misfits who liked him because he was so accepting.
I was never popular or well-liked in high school. I don’t think I was DISliked, but rather sort of invisible. I have been told by an accupuncturist that my life force is practically non-existent and I do believe that. I am a person that people simply don’t notice. I myself went to an all-girl school and it was probably less difficult that way.
I felt very uncomfortable being in the presence of one of the “cool kids” and wondering if I am one of the misfits that he is simply being nice to because he thinks it’s immoral to be unkind.
Now that brings up another issue. LO has a terrible temper and has behaved very badly. So his image of himself as this nice guy who befriends underdogs only goes so far. I haven’t forgotten the pain and confusion of LO screaming at me at the top of his lungs over nothing-burgers, such as my innocently using the word “grumpy” without realizing he doesn’t like that word.
I am not really sure what my point is. I guess being with LO took me back to a time when I felt very derpy and inadequate. Actually, I STILL feel very derpy and inadequate.
Thank you for listening. I somehow feel better just writing it down.
ND:
“I was never popular or well-liked in high school. I don’t think I was DISliked, but rather sort of invisible.”
Same. I was lucky enough to have a small circle of friends, but we were all the kids who didn’t fit into any of the other cliques. Not smart enough to be in the brain clique and not a cheerleader and not in one of the sports cliques and certainly not in the popular clique and not one of the burnout girls who wore the short jean skirts and hung up with the guys who smoked (although I think I deep down wanted to be one of those girls :)).
My last big LO was VERY popular at work. So I’m assuming he was in high school. The popular set seems to find each other; like attracts like. He was “one of them.” One of the in crowd. One of the people who got promoted along and invited to the cool-people luncheons and frequently pictured in the company online newsletter. I was the complete opposite (wasn’t in the newsletter ONE time). But I was flattered by his attention, especially because some (not all, but some) of the women in his clique weren’t that nice to me. I wanted to say: The cool guy’s talking to me, bitches! 😉 I got a kick out of it.
To Marcia:
I am wondering if my attraction to LO has something to do with wanting to correct being such an outcast in high school.
I liked what you said: “The cool guy’s talking to me, bitches!”
Maybe that’s what my limerence is all about.
Ha, that reminds me of middle school, the “popular” girls who picked on me suddenly becoming my best friend when it was revealed that a cute jock thought I was “a babe.” The guy didn’t do anything about it, though, and the girls soon found ways to blame me for that and the attention stopped. Funny thing is, in high school, the same guy ended up in a class with me. I soon realized the story was true, because he flirted with me all the time. But he was kinda dumb and kept making snarky comments about the class, so my heart did not go pitter pat, lol.
To Serial:
Thanks to you and Marcia for discussing this. I think I was more affected by being ostracized in high school than I realized.
LO told me a story about being in second or third grade, and the kids laughing at a little girl who got glasses. LO went and sat with her when none of the other kids would. This lady approached him years later at a reunion and thanked him for befriending her. It was a touching story, but as I mentioned above, I have trouble reconciling that kindly little boy with the prickly man who now tells me the story.
He painted a picture of himself as a benevolent person which simply does not match what I am seeing today.
But I do think that Marcia hit the nail on the head with her comments. I believe that somehow I can erase all the rejection and disappointment of the past by hanging out with the most popular guy in school. It would certainly explain why I seem to need his approval so much.
I think Marcia should get a special Limmy Award for this.
“I think Marcia should get a special Limmy Award for this.”
The award: Most Intuitive (except when it comes to her own life) 🙂
To Marcia:
I would prefer to call it “The Norma Desmond Award For Awesomeness.”
You REALLY helped me a lot with your insightful comments.
ND:
“I would prefer to call it “The Norma Desmond Award For Awesomeness. … You REALLY helped me a lot with your insightful comments.”
That’s sweet. Thank you.
To Marcia:
And I need to emphasize that this is NOT a competitive award. It’s a special award, like the Cecil B. DeMille Award or the Jean Hersholt Award that they give out at the Oscars. The recipient knows in advance that he or she is receiving it.
And in a weird bit of coincidence, if you remember your film trivia, in “Sunset Boulevard,” the hapless Norma Desmond has an on-screen encounter with the real Cecil B. DeMille. She thinks he wants her for a movie, but he really just wants to rent her unique vintage car.
There’s Six Degrees of something-or-other.
To ND:
“And I need to emphasize that this is NOT a competitive award. It’s a special award, like the Cecil B. DeMille Award or the Jean Hersholt Award that they give out at the Oscars. The recipient knows in advance that he or she is receiving it.”
Umm … they usually gives those awards to people who are very old. 🙂
“And in a weird bit of coincidence, if you remember your film trivia, in “Sunset Boulevard,” the hapless Norma Desmond has an on-screen encounter with the real Cecil B. DeMille. She thinks he wants her for a movie, but he really just wants to rent her unique vintage car.”
I remember that. Gloria Swanson was terrific in that part. I’m not a fan of William Holden, though. Apparently, he was quite the ladies’ man during his time in Hollywood. I can’t quite figure that one out.
To Marcia:
From what I understand, several other actresses were offered the part of Norma Desmond and turned it down. Gloria Swanson was amazing. I believe she got an Oscar nomination.
William Holden was a very attractive man when he was young.
You have a good eye, I am surprised you don’t find him appealing.
This is NOT a Lifetime Achievement Award. That’s the one they give to old people.
This is a special award for Brilliance in Posting, and has nothing whatsoever to do with your age. You can have an attack of brilliance at any point in your life.
ND:
“From what I understand, several other actresses were offered the part of Norma Desmond and turned it down. Gloria Swanson was amazing. I believe she got an Oscar nomination.”
Did you know she wanted to do a musical version of the film? She hired two guys to write it and they did — book and score. This was years before Andrew Llyod Weber’s version. If I remember correctly, she couldn’t get financing for it. Unfortunately, the success of the movie didn’t help revive her career. She had been a huge star in silent movies. But I’ve seen her in old interviews. She didn’t wallow in the past. She kept moving forward.
“William Holden was a very attractive man when he was young.”
He was totally wrong for the movie “Picnic.” He’s too old for the part. Was 37, looked 45. The character is supposed to be a young, college dropout who’s maybe 20 or 22.
“You have a good eye, I am surprised you don’t find him appealing.”
I can look at other stars of that era and get it. A young Clark Gable or a young Gary Cooper (in Morocco) or a young Erroll Flynn. I mention them because, like Holden, they hooked up with almost all their co-stars.
“This is a special award for Brilliance in Posting, and has nothing whatsoever to do with your age. You can have an attack of brilliance at any point in your life.”
Ok. I’ll take the compliment. 🙂
I don’t think my limerence came from the cool guy talking to me, though I was flattered. I found it interesting to watch him in the environment at work because he fit so perfectly within that world, and I don’t think I’ve ever felt that way anywhere. I envied him. But I think my limerence arouse out of the boredom of middle age. No one prepares you for the wallop of dullness.
To Marcia:
I never got Clark Gable. I thought he was unattractive at any age.
ND,
My aunt would vehemently disagree with you. By the 70s, she’d seen “Gone With The Wind” something like 10 times. She positively loved him.
https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-ydriczk/images/stencil/1500×1500/products/43660/43529/ss153192_-_photograph_of_clark_gable_as_rhett_butler_from_gone_with_the_wind_available_in_4_sizes_framed_or_unframed_buy_now_at_starstills__76099__69382.1394482475.jpg?c=2&imbypass=on
She had this poster on the wall of her kitchen. There was a perfectly impressed lipstick kiss on his cheek.
Luckily for you, she’s dead so you don’t have to worry about her showing up at your door and re-calibrating your, in her mind, philistine opinion.
Cary Grant is my crush from that period. 🙂 Clark Gable is handsome, but I never liked mustaches.
For me, it’s Gregory Peck.
Can’t stand Clark Gable. !
Mustache on anyone instantly turns me off, not even on Proust.
Agreed! I love me some Gregory Peck. Yum!
Norma,
“I never got Clark Gable. I thought he was unattractive at any age.”
What’s there to “get”? You feel it in your drawers. 🙂
There’s conventionally attractive and there’s sexy. Two totally different qualities. Someone can have one quality or both, but one quality does not imply the other. Just because someone is conventionally attractive doesn’t mean they’re sexy. And vice versa. (This is a high-level concept; most men don’t understand it. 🙂 )
Clark Gable was a decent-enough-looking guy. But he was very sexy. Very charismatic. Had a tremendous masculine presence with a hint of scoundrel. 🙂
“Agreed! I love me some Gregory Peck. Yum!”
He’s so stiff, it’s like watching cardboard. It’s like listening to my dad. 🙂
“Cary Grant … ”
Good-looking. Not sexy.
To Marcia:
I feel nothing in my drawers when I look at Clark Gable.
Nor do I think he’s attractive in an objective way.
Just barely decent-looking.
I don’t even play in that field and if you are going to talk men of that time period in movies as handsome with charisma, class or masculinity it’s clearly Humphrey Bogart my ladies.
This year would be my 30th and just like my 20th there’s no way I’d go. I dunno even know how anyone found me for my 20th initially. I can see it now cause we’re in the same house still. But no, reunions of most any kind are not for me. People change too much over time.
You know how I feel about him more dear Norma. I think that your LO is more concerned with how appears to others than the kind of person he really is behind closed doors. He’s a vampire for outside validation. He feeds on it. Why? I can’t say cause I don’t know him enough from what you’ve shared. But it seems his image is far more important to him than improving on himself. Especially his temperament. So if people seem him as “kind hearted” it matters little to him if he genuinely is.
To Adam:
Thank you for your kind words. I did go to my 20th and 25th HS reunions, because I was doing well at those times. After my horrible divorce, I wouldn’t dream of going to another one.
LO is very successful and apparently has kept in touch with tons of people from his high school years. He IS a salesman, after all, and has a good ability to put on a smooth facade.
Good morning Adam and Norma!
A contrarian take here.
I had skipped ALL of my reunions, until my 45th last May. I kept my expectations very low, and had arranged a one-on-one meeting with only a single person, someone I thought was one of my best friends in HS. It turned out that he was remarkably self-absorbed, dominating the entire conversation, without a single question for me. What another friend (a therapist, BTW) had told me about this guy — that he was ultra self-absorbed — turned out to be correct. But later that evening, when we came across each other at another event, he did apologize, and attempted to self-correct.
But the real saving grace was re-connecting with several individuals that I had not expected. It was really fascinating to see how they had blossomed over the years.
All-in-all, it was very cathartic. It served as a great counterpoint to my limerence.
To CatCyclist:
Thank you for that interesting perspective. I guess it depends on your motivation for going to the reunion.
I desperately wanted to be married with a child, and didn’t feel I could face my peers until I had achieved that.
So I guess my motivation was to prove that I could keep up with my classmates. Somehow I thought I was inferior and either didn’t deserve or couldn’t accomplish what others had done.
I had one child by my 1990 reunion and three children by 1995, so I felt comfortable enough to attend. By 2005, the bottom had fallen out of my life, and I wouldn’t be caught dead going to any further events.
My brother
Got a quick question. I remember you saying you still monitor some recruiting sites online. I was wondering if you have or do use linkedin? I’ve tried to do a bit or research online and I get very polarizing opinions on opposite ends of the spectrum. Whether it’s actually useful, do they mine your information, is it AI slop recruitment listings, etc. I’ve been mostly using Glassdoor and indeed. And whenever there’s the option I tend to go for applying for a position directly on the company’s own website rather than through the recruitment sites. But the amount of corporate listing that use AI for recruitment makes getting kept in the loop on their own website’s status of the hiring process is difficult to say the least. I find mostly only independent businesses tend to keep you informed even up to an email to tell you that they selected someone else so you can move on to something else. Which is very courteous and helpful. So I’ve been trying to concentrate on such types of businesses whenever possible. It’s not like it was back in 2011, the last time I was unemployed.
I spent some time with LO today. He wanted to talk about his 50-year high school reunion. He showed me his high school graduation picture. I was afraid to look at it for fear I’d come unglued. I once saw a photo of LO when he was about 50 years old, and he was devastatingly handsome. Not sure if I could handle him at 18. However, the graduation photo did nothing for me.
I was pleased to be so indifferent; I was afraid I’d embarrass myself.
I seem to be doing okay slowly de-sensitizing myself to LO. It’s not great, but it’s all I’ve got. I was hoping that LO would move and take himself off my hands. However, LO’s house has been on the market for the second time for almost four months, and I suspect it will take a very long time to sell.