Another visit to the LwL coffeehouse – the open thread where any topic of conversation is fair game.
To kick off the discussion this month, here’s a new post I wrote on Psychology Today about “frontal lobe breakups”.
This is apparently the new thing that explains why relationships sometimes fall apart in people’s mid-twenties.
The idea is that frontal lobe development is finally complete at this stage of life and, with their new-found cognitive sophistication, many people look upon their lovers and despair.
As you might possibly have been able to predict, I offer the alternative explanation that people can be carried into a misguided relationship by limerence in their early twenties, because the neurochemical fireworks blind them to any incompatibilities.
It’s all too dazzling and spectacular to see past.
But, once the limerence fades by age 25 they finally see the problems clearly and realise they are too big to overcome.
They then explain their youthful love-madness as their brain being immature, rather than being in an altered mental state that biases the balance between chemistry and compatibility.
In reality, of course, both brain development and personal experience will contribute, and they’ll also affect one another.
The experiences you go through in your early twenties will direct the way that your frontal lobes are remodelled. And as you gain both wisdom and improved cognitive performance, you learn what not to do in the future.
You can’t really disentangle one from the other.
OK. Over to you guys. Feel free to share your own examples of romantic idiocy in the comments, and how inadequate myelination in your frontal lobes made you do it…
Ha! This article makes me feel ancient. Pretty sure I am the oldest one here.
I have had numerous romances, marriage and divorce, but only one limerent episode prior to the current one.
Despite all the “wisdom” I have acquired throughout my life, I now find myself in my seventies drooling over my hot gay neighbor.
Obviously my frontal lobes flunked a course somewhere.
Miss Norma
There was a gal that used to post here that was limerent for her female neighbor that recently moved by her when as a married woman, she had no bisexual feelings before. But she had a strong sexual limrrence to her. Frederico was limerent for a heterosexual man while being homosexual himself. It’s a concept I can’t understand. I’ve been told I’m so typically heterosexual that I’ve been accused of being closeted homosexual. Lol. Human sexuality is quite complex and interesting. I guess I can understand finding another person attractive that’s not in you sexual preference. Momma loves giving me grief I have a “man crush” on Jason Statham. So I dunno …..
To Adam:
LO has told me that lots of women have found him attractive.
I can believe it. I have told you that he looks like Anderson Cooper, except taller and thinner.
If he looked like Adam Lambert, I’d be showing up at your house tonight. 🙂 And then we’d pull out our folding chairs and sit on his front porch and wave at him every time he left the house. 🙂
Eww Miss Marcia you have bad taste in men. That guy looks like a final boss in a 90’s SNES beat ‘em up game. Smh.
I like Adam Lambert, but I prefer Anderson Cooper.
LO has that same pasty white look that I find appealing.
Miss Norma
I got hit on by a homosexual man back in my early 30’s. He asked me if I’d have some drinks with him. He was probably in his 50’s. I’ve never been more flattered. I told him I was married but I appreciated the offer. He was a very well kept man.
To Adam:
LO says he is flattered, but I think he is also baffled.
He’s actually a pretty good sport, all things considered.
You’re welcome to Jason Statham. He looks like the guy who does my taxes. 🙂
I don’t get Jason Statham. He looks boring to me.
Same thing with Channing Tatum.
Norma,
At least Channing Tatum can dance. 🙂
But Jason Statham … what do I care about a dude who can kick other dude’s butts? He’s a movie star for men, not women.
At the moment, you may be the oldest. A few years back, we had a poster closing on 80 that became limerent for a cruise director 40 years her junior.
Song of the Day: “Both Sides Now” – Judy Collins (1968)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9gRvK4aGnU
To L.E.:
I remember this song very well. However, I could have sworn that it was sung by Joni Mitchell.
It was.
I like Judy Collins cover better.
To L.E.:
I like Judy Collins better, also.
More Judy Collins:
“Send in the Clowns” – 1973
https://youtu.be/1CH0dIOypns?si=VF7RgAfxybKfYC1Q
Streisand did a version of this, which I always liked, but this is very good also..
To L.E.:
Ah, this one always makes me cry.
One of my cousins had this played at her wedding, and I couldn’t imagine using this for a wedding.
ND,
Did the bride and groom like each other?
To L.E.:
They did at the time, but the husband unexpectedly dumped the wife around Christmas time about six years later.
I remember being horrified, and not being able to imagine such a thing.
Turned out that my own husband dumped me unexpectedly around Christmas time many years later.
I had a much harder time than my cousin did. She was able to recover and remarry eventually, because she was relatively young and in good health.
I was older and disabled. Dating was out of the question, plus my kids had behavior problems.
So the kids have moved out and here I am, slobbering over my hot, pasty white, Anderson-Cooper-lookalike man candy neighbor.
ND,
What is it about Xmas and break ups? LO #2 declined my marriage proposal on Xmas morning.
To L.E.:
The timing was horrible. However, my ex was a math major, and very organized. He wanted to file for divorce on January 1, 2002 to make things “neat.” Obviously, the first is a holiday, but he filed on January 2 and was one of the first people to file in the new year.
He wasn’t trying to mess up Christmas, it just happened that way because he was going by the calendar.
Two of my earliest boyfriends were men I wanted before I had an opportunity to be with them. One was a year ahead of me at school, the smartest boy in his class. I admired him before I even met him. The other (years later) was a man I noticed at an annual event. The first year, I found him striking but he didn’t give me a second look. The second year, he pursued me. The first case was more limerence-driven than the second. The second was a momentary fantasy that came true a year later.
In the first case, I realized after nearly 2 years that he wasn’t someone I could see myself with as a life partner. He was painfully shy with everyone except me. I wanted someone more confident.
In the second case, it took 6 months to know. Marrying him would have been subordinating my identity to his in every way — culturally, family responsibilities, friend circle, career plans — I wouldn’t do that. Still, it was the hardest breakup I ever had. He was a very sweet man and a wonderful lover. He is the only ex I ever miss.
I’m not sure anymore which is better psychologically: compatibility before chemistry, and marriage to someone who feels safe but doesn’t ever make you feel alive; or chemistry before compatibility, and the resultant serial monogamy. “I’ve looked at life from both sides now.”
Neither way is better, it deepens on what one NEEDS more. A workable long-term relationship needs/requires BOTH chemistry and compatibility combined; neither side is subordinate. The latter is more important than the former.
Can one ever feel “safe” /grounded or “alive” /joyful just being with Oneself? Can one give another (one’s beloved) something s/he lacks within?
It’s a deep and melancholy insight that the most important things in life will aways be, in their essence, unknown.
Yet, despite their infinite shapes, the substance of clouds are all same; and they can never block the Sun for long. Four seasons, day and night, light and shadow, fantasy and reality… are all a part of the human life. Embracing them brings one profound peace and joy.
Both Sides of the Ground
The ground, the grit, the gravel’s grind,
The heavy truth you always find,
The feet worn sore for being kind—
I’ve looked at earth that way.
But now each stone’s a chance to build,
A valley by a river filled,
A mountain waiting to be willed,
With earth to clear the way.
I’ve looked at earth from both sides now,
From low and high, and still, somehow,
It’s solid hope I hold, not doubt—
I’m only just beginning now.
Dust and rust and broken rails,
The doubt that every dream derails,
The sum of all our failed details—
I’ve looked at truth that way.
But now the dust can hold a seed,
The rust just means the iron freed,
The broken road’s a different lead—
There’s truth in what decayed.
I’ve looked at truth from both sides now,
Through loss and gain, and still, somehow,
It’s not the flaw, but what it allows—
I’m only just beginning now.
Loss and cross and letting go,
The quiet of a fading glow,
The art of learning to say no—
I’ve looked at change that way.
But now the letting go is room,
The fading glow just means the moon,
The no’s a door to a different room—
There’s gain in what gives way.
I’ve looked at change from both sides now,
From dark to light, and still, somehow,
It’s not the end, it’s the turning around—
I’m only just beginning now.
I’ve looked at earth from both sides now,
From down and up, and still, somehow,
It’s the solid ground I’m standing now—
And I’m only just beginning.
The closest relationship I ever had to a LE, was back when I was 21. The girl I was seeing was an intern for the company I was working for then. She was 19 and home from the summer from College. We’d gotten to know one another well. Hung out. Went to the beach, the movies. I took her to the County Fair. I was really crazy for her. Like insane-in-love-with crazy.
What I realized early on, is that as well as we got along most of the time, we were totally incompatible. She was totally College minded and I was far from it. I don’t think this ever sat well with her or her Family. I also found out she never really broke things off with the guy she would refer to often as a former boyfriend. So I knew she couldn’t entirely be trusted. However I was in love and wanted to be with her all the time. When she went back to school that fall, I went to go visit her a few times on Campus. We had some nice visits and a really fantastic date the following spring. Later that summer, I tried telling her all I was feeling for her. This effort failed miserably and she got really mad at me for admitting things. Basically telling me to F— off. It was a bitter heartbreak and I was depressed about it for a long time. I always kinda knew her feelings for me were never the same, but this is probably where I started establishing a pattern of finding someone of the opposite sex who is avoidant and emotionally unavailable. It seems like this is where it may have started and to this day is still my downfall.
Somehow I keep finding these emotionally unavailable Women who might like my company and late night texting just to chat, but the interest is lukewarm at best. I then find it hard to want to be with them at a deeper level for fear it will all blow up in my face again.
Btw, I had to do a double take of the picture above that Dr. L posted. 😂
The pouty looking girl on the couch with her arms crossed looks a lot like my LF. Especially when she’s irritated. Kinda funny too because the guy seated next to her almost looks a little bit like the goofball LF is currently dating.
Hopefully the magic has worn off in that relationship. I’d kinda like her to be somewhat miserable with him now..
To MJ:
Schadenfreude is nothing to be proud of, but it feels wonderful.
ND
Yeah I don’t want her in living hell with the guy. I’d just be happy to know she’s gotten sick of him somewhat. Or that she found out he’s immature or annoying or whatever. Probably won’t ever happen but I do think in some small and odd kind of way, she misses me. Maybe not a lot but sometimes when we talk, it almost feels Iike it. She makes it obvious she has an issue with me talking to another Woman now. Which is so freaking High School. She’ll never really do anything though. She usually just playfully teases me over it but I know that means it gets to her a little. Her and this other Woman are Friends too, so I’m always curious what they’re talking about.
I know she doesn’t hate me, but I also know she doesn’t like me very much either..
If that makes any sense.. 😆
MJ,
“Later that summer, I tried telling her all I was feeling for her. This effort failed miserably and she got really mad at me for admitting things.”
That’s a reaction I can’t figure out. How did you go from having a nice date in the spring to her reacting like that in the summer? What do you think changed? I always used to fear reactions like that when I was younger, and it held me back.
MJ,
I’m with LaR. Not sure why someone you’d dated … for what? … a year? …. would blow up at you for telling them how you feel.
I’m assuming you were dating, right? Meaning: you weren’t just friends? And you both knew you were dating ? What was your understanding when she returned to school? I’m assuming you had some kind of conversation about what would happen when she want back to school ? Was it casual ?
As mentioned in my post, she never entirely broke things off with the former bf. Even though she would tell me they were just friends. I’m pretty sure she reacted like that suddenly because she wanted him more back in the picture. She never fully committed to me ever. This because she wanted to have her cake and eat it too. I wasn’t someone like “him” who she’d been with for many years prior. Starting over was and would be too much like work for her. Plus she always tried talking me into going back to school and I never would. I think it’s because her parents wanted better for her and not some blue collar kid from the suburbs. I swear it never sat well with them or her. I could just tell. Which is another reason why she would never really fully commit to me. We never talked much about how things would be once she went back to school. All she would ever say is, come down and visit me.
Let me also add this was 1993. Before everyone had cell phones. I made a lot of trips to go and surprise her and remember calling her on a payphone. Sometimes to just get the answering machine.. It got old. Fast..
MJ,
I’m sorry it didn’t work out with this woman. I’ll cut her some slack because she was so young. Both of you were.
“Somehow I keep finding these emotionally unavailable Women who might like my company and late night texting just to chat, but the interest is lukewarm at best. ”
So we all have patterns. But the only way this will improve is if you change them. (I know it’s not easy. I am actively working at changing mine.)
You have to set different standards for yourself. The woman must pick up the phone when you call, text back in a reasonable time frame, say yes to a date, show up on that date … or you walk. These are basic standards. It’s not too much to ask for.
There are no such things are mixed signals. They are actually red flags.
I was posting elsewhere about an ongoing crisis with my best girlfriend, who just got out of the hospital due to heart failure.
Her condition has been deteriorating for months and she finally checked herself in when it became too difficult to breathe.
I have been extremely worried, and marveled at her unwillingness to seek medical help almost until it was too late.
She lives on drive-thru fast food, and the changes that she needs to make are daunting. I tried telling her that she could find nutrition information on the websites of the various restaurant chains, and she laughed at me.
She insisted that “I don’t use salt,” only to discover that her favorite sauce at a chain called Flame Broiler contains 500 mg of salt PER SERVING. A heart patient is allowed only 1500 – 2000 mg of salt per day. And apparently she slathered on a great deal more than one serving of sauce when she got food from Flame Broiler.
I tried to make a few suggestions, but she ended up yelling at me. Then I told her that I wished I could talk to her without her yelling at me, and she got even angrier. She insisted I was trying to make her feel guilty, which was not my intent.
I would simply like to be able to speak without being yelled at and laughed at.
This is the same response I got from LO a few years ago when I tried to explain something. I now choose my words carefully, and if I am at all doubtful, I remain silent.
Both of these people are very dear to me, but I find myself almost afraid to speak.
Relationships shouldn’t be like this.
Hi Norma,
I think that sometimes people who are unwell prefer to put their heads in the sand and don’t want to get diverted by being forced into tough reality checks with their loved ones. I have experienced this with family members. Denial is a powerful anaesthetic.
I have a friend who has alienated our mutual friends by getting on their case about health checks. Now, this friend is actually a bit of a hypochondriac herself, so our mutual friends get resentful when she gets on their case (they think its a ‘her’ problem not a ‘them’ problem).
I am not for one minute suggesting that you are doing this with your friend, I just think that people get touchy about their health. Or, they feel miserable and cant imagine making tough choices. I have seen people who bring up the subject of health issues themselves, only to then clam up and get grumpy about how the exchange unfolds. If I could offer some advice (please feel free to ignore if this does not resonate), it would be to completely ignore the topic unless your friend brings it up, and if she does, dont challenge her or offer suggestions, only be supportive.
Your friend knows very well that all this drive-thru food is asking for trouble. You could just keep your counsel on it and let her get to the conclusion on her own (you don’t need to endorse it). She may never feel ready to makes those changes. Its a very tricky time for you both but the last thing you need now is to have conflict with her over something she is unwilling or unable to change. Maybe just try changing the subject? Its very hard, but its her life…
To Bewitched:
You are so right that I need to stay off the subject.
She was initially in denial that she would have to change her diet at all, so she has improved from that position, and understands that she needs to choose lower-salt options when going to fast food restaurants.
But you’re right, she has to do it, and nothing I say will change that.
It does really hurt, though, to be laughed at as if I am completely nuts when I tell her that restaurant websites DO have the nutrition information on their menu items.
That’s a valuable resource for someone watching her salt intake, and she should use it, instead of laughing at me and saying that that is not the case.
“People find it far easier to forgive others for being wrong than being right” – Albus Dumbledore
To Miss Cloud:
I have not heard that quote before. I really like it.
I am going to remember it. I am guessing that is what’s causing my friend’s anger.
It’s still painful to be laughed at as though I am a fool when I KNOW I am right about this. I have had to follow nutrition information closely in order to control my weight. I do have some experience.
I had just assumed that in ones 20s you’re more likely to be thinking about settling down, so you’ll seek out a partner who’s a compatible team-mate for living and raising a family with. Before then, and again once you’re older, you’re more likely to just follow your brain chemistry and be less “sensible” about it.
To Miss Cloud:
That’s a point.
I married a man who ended up being verbally abusive, but he was a good provider, and I got three girls out of the bargain. Even though my adult daughters do not speak to me, I am always hopeful that will change.
I don’t regret marrying this man, nor do I regret the children.
I’d rather not be limerent for LO, but at least it’s at a time in my life that I can afford a bit of foolishness.
Wanted to drop in to say, after a particularly bad “relief-seeking” episode, where I’d reached out in attempt to sooth my anxiety and seek clarity, suddenly I had this moment of clarity from within. LO remained ambivalent and didn’t want to say a definite no to what I’d wished for. But somehow, a moment of clarity came – by not saying anything means a no. And it really liberated me from the uncertainty, from the possibility that things could still happen.
I am not there yet. I still feel a certain level of attachment to LO. I still check if he messages me (even though I’ve muted him and archived his chats). I still feel some level of excitement when his messages come in. But I am learning to PAUSE. Pause when I feel the urge to check. Pause when I feel I need to reply him immediately.
Two mantras that I’ve written on Post-it notes – “Do not attach future meaning to texts” & “Nothing is missing right now”
Nothing is missing. I am whole and complete as a person. LO’s texts regardless of the level deep thoughts & feelings he expresses, didn’t mean he wanted anything more – it’s probably his way of expression. And I do not need to project any meaning to those.
Still not in the clear but hopefully getting better.
That all sounds very positive, Hopeful. I like the mantras. “Nothing is missing right now” is good. Recognition that we don’t need that drug of thinking about that one person.
To Hopeful:
“Nothing is missing” is a great antidote to anxiety. That’s something to remind ourselves of every day.
LO used to soothe my anxiety, now I think he causes it.
I just watched the BAFTA Awards last night. I am maybe one of the few people who still enjoys award shows. Oscars are coming up.
Which reminds me, I was wondering what was going on with the Limmy Awards?
ND,
I have an idea…
DrL & Fenna can make a YouTube video announcing the 2026 inaugural Limmy Awards winners! Winners will be sent an electronic certificate that they can print and frame!
Maybe Lowendj can submit some background music. Former posters could submit audio clips about LwL’s past.
I still claim the first Limmy for Lifetime Achievement.
BYOB
To L.E.:
Oh, that sounds fabulous!
A Lifetime Achievement Limmy is a bit dubious. I hope I never win one of those.
As it is, I think I am in the running for Most Pathetic Back-Slider.
ND,
The Lifetime Achievement Award is for being the longest active poster on LwL.
To L.E.:
Oh, I see. Well, then, cherish your award!
Brother I found my anthem lol. Though tbf it’s just an excuse to see/hear Miss Kimberly. 😉 That southern accent and that blonde curly hair …. I’ll be in my bunk. #girlcrush
Day Drinking — Little Big Town
https://youtu.be/-NPqM3vPDg8?si=J2Bd0l3AGTRWD6an
Nice Brother Nice, but get your head out of the gutter. It’s not healthy. 😂
But before you do, take a look-see at my Hilary who’s making a comeback..
I’m a total sucker for Blondes and black pantyhose. She wears them well.. 🥰
Hilary Duff
“Weather for Tennis”
https://youtu.be/NAkaEDv8oks?si=X4oVFH6jtzfOII-L
Momma bought some anklets online. :-; I’m one happy man.
Ladies why do some of y’all avoid pretty things? Be it dresses, skirts, night things? Nice heels? Is it sacrilegious for a woman to be pretty and feminine? Is it selfish for a man to want her to? Momma is very tomboy but I like it when she wears pretty things. But she doesn’t do it often. But I like when she does. I love her favorite night thing and it’s very modest. But it gets motor running.
To Adam:
Some of us cannot walk in high heels.
Heels are ridiculously uncomfortable, not to mention horrible for your feet. Try wearing them for a few hours, and then we’ll talk.
Although I agree they’re sexy.
Personal preference. Some women just don’t like that. I like feminine things and getting all gussied up for church or a concert, but never wear high heels because I like being able to walk and balance and not have foot pain. 🙂 She gets to decide what she wants to wear. 🙂
I enjoy wearing pretty things! But not all the time, and I want it to be my choice. For example, I rarely wear make up because I find it uncomfortable, time-consuming and expensive, and I figure that men don’t have to wear make up (except on stage). I also don’t wear heels because they’re uncomfortable. But I love wearing pretty dresses and jewellery. Sometimes it’s not convenient or I want to wear jeans and a jumper, and that makes dressing up feel more special. I do it entirely for me: my husband is oblivious to clothes and isn’t interested in what I wear. It takes the pressure off.
Thank you ladies for your responses. Before Momma’s ankle surgery she’d wear heel. But they were low length and heels were really thick as it was easier to walk in them for her. Now she can’t wear/walk in them for the pin she had put in.
Cloud
That’s interesting. Because I totally dress nice for Momma. I mean I do it for myself too because I like the clothes that I like. But the other night she’s like “I need a vape” and I’m sitting play Xbox in a t-shirt and shorts and I’m like “ok let me get dressed”; slacks, collar shirt, dress shoes (which the vape store employee complimented me on) and my wool pea coat and fedora. I like dressing up for Momma. Even though she was in sweatpants and a hoodie. 🤣 We are very different when it comes to how we dress. But I always love seeing momma in feminine things. I think I was meant for a different time. Love dresses on women.
“Because I totally dress nice for Momma. I mean I do it for myself too because I like the clothes that I like”
But if I’m understanding you correctly, it sounds like you’re picking out the clothes you like and then wearing them. That’s different than if she picks out the clothes for you. Or picks out clothes you wouldn’t ordinarily wear (which was your question about her).
In terms of her being a tomboy … that’s who she is. Now, maybe she’s ok with wearing the skirts and dresses you like. And if she is, I don’t think there’s anything fundamentally wrong wit it. Or maybe she’s not ok with it and would prefer you accepted her tomboy look more.
Probably 50% of my clothes Momma has bought for me without my input. She just buys them. The shirt I wore last night is one she bought me. It’s a linen collar shirt that is dark emerald green with white pin strips and it’s one of my favorite shirts ever. She knows my style and buys me things that she knows I will like. I also ask her input on color coordinating because I’m color blind and just not good at it.
I remember one Sunday morning I asked her before I went to church “does this go together?” “Oh God no!” Lol
Momma bought a dress not too long ago and I’m just waiting for that day. 😉
To Adam:
My ex was difficult to shop for and was a chronic complainer.
His office favored polo shirts for the men. So I went out and bought him about ten polo shirts. I held them up one by one for his approval. He liked two of them, and I returned the rest.
That was how I had to shop for him.
Sir Adam:
I see nothing wrong with picking out clothes for each other. Within reason. I personally wouldn’t want to get super dressed up every day in the way you like with the skirts and dresses. By I’m assuming you’re not expecting her to.
But if I’m your wife and I’m wearing something I wouldn’t ordinarily wear because you want me to, I better be getting a lot of compliments. 🙂
Dear Norma
I’ve always liked what she picks out for me. She’s got good fashion taste for me and herself. But I hate polos. But that’s because it was my uniform from my high school job. Kinda like my mother always trying to dress me like a preppy when I was young.
Dame Marcia
You’d better watch it. MJ is gonna be jealous when you say things like that lol. But we all know Miss Norma has my heart. We still got to dance Slow Dancing together. Or Let’s Dance. Either one is good with me.
And no I don’t expert her to. I just like when she does. Pretty things are pretty things. Like I said above she bought some anklets online ….. I’m waiting patiently. Sandles were made for women. No one wants to see a man’s feet.
Adam,
“You’d better watch it. MJ is gonna be jealous when you say things like that lol.”
I’m an equal opportunity employer. 🙂
But we all know Miss Norma has my heart.
You know who has my heart? The best option. 🙂
“No one wants to see a man’s feet.”
ITA. Even on the beach. Keep them dogs covered! 🙂
LO #2 worked in the men’s department of the Marhall Field affiliate in Seattle. She had outstanding taste in men’s clothing.
After we started dating, she said for an ok guy, I dressed like a dork. She said we’d go shopping but she wanted to go through my closet first.
She filled two trash bags with old clothes and of we went. $600 later including new scents, I returned home a Sharp Dressed Man. I also got my colors done. I am a Winter. I looked and smelled “Mahvelous.” Now, I only wear a tie to a funeral.
https://youtu.be/7wRHBLwpASw?si=QwpUZ_K5V9SFddrA – ZZ Top
To Adam:
Another issue was that my ex was narcissistic and seemed to delight in complaining and saying “no” to me. I learned that rejecting my gifts seemed to be one of the ways he expressed this.
So I had to learn to get around it somehow. By purchasing ten polo shirts and letting him choose his favorites, I escaped the “Eww!! Why’d you get me THIS?”
Dear Norma
I’m sorry that he treated you that way. I know I’m perpetually always angry at my own gender for what we do. But know I’ll never treat you that way. You’ll always be dear to me. And my brother is always here for you too.
Polos and sweaters are a big no for me. But I find women in sweaters attractive. I just don’t want to wear them myself.
LE
Yeah my “sharp dressed man” came in tow with my midlife crisis and limerence.
Unfortunately I can’t have a “scent” most, if not all, send Momma into an allergic reaction. But I’d like to be able to wear cologne again.
Momma has two dresses right now. I saw her in one last year. Hoping to see her in the other one soon. I like when she’ll take one of my hats and wear it. Excuse me I gotta go now. 🙂
Adam,
Song of the Post:
“You Can Leave Your Hat On” – Joe Cocker
https://youtu.be/hfgwrdYUQ2A?si=YtNKx8dGwBdb2X1u
To L.E.:
OMG, that is one of my all-time favorite songs.
I have it on my playlist along with “I Hate Myself For Loving You,” and “Love Is the Drug.”
LE
Naw the shoes gotta stay on too. 😉
Dear Norma
If your talking about the Divnynlis take on it, it’s one of my favorite songs.
https://youtu.be/UKPwWK1uzlY?si=DJl41-oi_1eltYKS
To Adam:
No, I think we talked about this before.
Roxy Music.
ND,
The clip is from the movie “9-1/2 Weeks.” It was the “50 Shades of Grey” of it’s time (1970s). I read excerpts of it in “Playboy” in college. It was really intense. I let LO #1 read the excerpts and she thought it was really intense. She had a physical reaction to it, if you get my drift.
Aside from the killer soundtrack and Kim Basinger, the movie stunk.
“Aside from the killer soundtrack and Kim Basinger, the movie stunk.”
I beg to differ: Mickey Rourke! He looked good in that movie.
50 Shades (the first movie) was bad. Little chemistry between the leads, and it was laughable in parts it was supposed to be sexy.
To L.E.:
I remember “9-1/2 Weeks” very well. I liked it at the time but I don’t remember much about it.
I only know Mickey Rourke from Barfly and Sin City. And his portrayal of both characters was spot on. I’ve never watched 9 1/2 weeks. Charles Bukowski will always be the greatest writer since Niechetze.
https://youtu.be/alW8yUlsM-M?si=FqFut_Tn_mtR_cY0
He was very good at playing an underlying hint of danger, which the part in “9 1/2 Weeks” required. I’m at a loss right now to think of a young actor popular today who could pull that off.
I want to give a small update on my health. It isn’t nearly as dramatic as my girlfriend, who suffers from heart failure and had fluid leaking out of her ankles.
I am having what appears to be an issue with my liver or pancreas. I have had a liver biopsy, which I still hate myself for. I have also had a fibroscan, which is a new procedure which kind of semi-replaces the liver biopsy, and is much easier and not invasive. Both tests came out perfect. And, the liver biopsy was done in 2018 and the fibroscan was done in 2025. So my liver did not deteriorate over that time.
An MRI shows a mildly dilated pancreatic valve. The doctor wants me to have an endoscopic procedure which would be similar to the liver biopsy in that they give you “heavy conscious sedation.” This means that they give you Fentanyl and you are so bombed it takes two days to have the effects wear off. It was unpleasant after the liver biopsy, and I am not doing this again unless it’s a life-or-death type of situation.
I have talked with two other doctors about this, and both of them said it seemed fine to just keep an eye on the pancreatic valve. Unfortunately, my liver specialist keeps pushing for the endoscope, and I have to keep saying NO NO NO.
I have no symptoms other than elevated liver enzymes, which obviously I wouldn’t know about, without all the testing.
Hi Norma,
I would talk to the specialist again and ask
1. what specific diagnosis is he trying to rule out?
2. what is the risk of not doing it right now?
3. is there an alternative to Fentanyl, some other kind of sedation?
Maybe you‘ll see more clearly afterwards.
And maybe ask a pancreatic specialist (not liver) for another opinion.
All the best for you!
To Mila:
Oh, good question! I think he’s trying to rule out stones, but I should get clarification. If I had stones, wouldn’t there be pain?
I hated the liver biopsy, and this procedure would be worse. The biopsy takes about 20 minutes, the endoscope takes an hour. So even MORE time and thus, more drugs. The after-effects are unpleasant. I am still angry about the biopsy. My doctor had me convinced that the test was necessary. I felt like a fool when it came back perfect. She had assured he that they would find an abnormality.
Thank you for your kind words.
In regards to stones and pain not necessarily. I had gallstones and no pain. Found due to elevated liver enzymes and an ultrasound afterwards. Chronic inflammation from gallstones can increase the risk of gallbladder cancer although that’s usually for stones over 2cm, which mine were. My surgeon who is also LO made sure to emphasize that because I really didn’t want to do surgery. I ended up having a lap chole as an outpatient.
A lot of physicians use propofol now for short procedures like endoscopies. I know the facility I work at hasn’t used Fentanyl and Versed for endoscopy procedures in years.
Mila gave some really good questions to ask.
To Lost Girl:
If they used propofol, I wouldn’t mind. But they said “heavy conscious sedation.” I’d rather be knocked out with propofol, because you feel relatively well and alert when you wake up.
With fentanyl, it’s a nightmare.
I just came from my doctor’s office, and it looks like my breast cancer may have returned.
Only good thing about breast cancer is it takes my mind off of LO. God knows HE’S no help.
Oh, no! Too much going on. 🙁 I sent up prayers for you.
To Serial:
Thank you for the prayers. They are much appreciated.
May I say, I am sorry for this health condition you are in.
Love yourself, take care of yourself. My meditation teacher would say, take also care for this cancer, its a part of you, talk to your body, calm him down, say everything is gonna be ok. Caress your breast, breath and thank every healthy body part of you, say thank you for everthing you give to me. Regularly talking positive to yourself can help.
Wish you luck and strength! Sorry, if this seems intrusive, we don’t know each other..
To Laloba:
Not intrusive at all. Good advice.
Ironically, I think the glimmer for LO started in the wake of my previous cancer surgery, four years ago. He was so kindly and concerned, and it startled me. I didn’t expect it, and was pleasantly surprised.
Now I see that this is how he is with everybody. Once you get to know him, he isn’t really all that kind. It’s superficial.
This could be the reason for your limerence. It hits hard when you are in a difficult life situation and the LO seems to be there for you, in some way supportive. It reminds me on my limerence at the end of my unhappy marriage when the only good vibes came from my LO.
To Laloba:
But it’s all an illusion. I didn’t know LO very well when I had breast cancer four years ago. I can still remember him bounding out of his house like a gazelle when he heard my voice outside, speaking with another neighbor.
I think that may have been the beginning of my limerence.
Now, of course, I know him better. I did speak to him briefly after coming back from the doctor, and he said, “You got this.”
That is a perfectly appropriate response. I DO “got this.” But I couldn’t help but notice that another person might have said something like, “I’m here if you need me,” or “Is there anything I can do to help?” LO’s comment seems deliberately distancing. As in, YOU GOT THIS, and I hope you don’t ask me to do anything.
I’m so sorry to hear this, Norma.
I hope its a false alarm but we are here if you want to vent.
LO might upset you so give him a wide berth until you’re ready for him.
Bx
To Bewitched:
It could be a false alarm. I am just preparing for the worst.
The waiting is hard.
Dear Norma,
I’m so sorry to hear this.
Please take care of yourself.
You are always in my thoughts.
To CatCyclist:
Thank you for your ongoing kindness toward me.
Hi Norma,
Oh no, I hold my thumbs that it‘s a false alarm!
On the other topic, it’s worth finding about about Propofol for this procedure, and Lost girl‘s story about the painless gallstones causing elevated liver enzymes is quite interesting in this context, I think.
All the best, Norma!
To Mila:
I am very pleased to know that gallstones can cause elevated liver enzymes, because my only symptom is elevated liver enzymes.
I can’t wait to bring this up with my doctor–I will sound like a rocket scientist. hahaha
Although I must say, I can only handle so much at once. The liver situation has to take a back seat to the breast cancer.
Norma,
Of course! I think if two doctors said it’s ok to wait it’s not terribly urgent, so just take one step at a time.
Actually I’m with your LO, I trust you to handle any outcome, you can beat this stupid beast even if it returned which I do not hope, with all my heart.
To Mila:
Thank you for your comments. I do remember from the last time, the waiting is the worst part. The surgery wasn’t even all that bad.
Now of course I am waiting to find out if this is new cancer or just scar tissue.
To Norma
I’m so very sorry you’re having to deal with this. Sending you love and prayers.
To Lost Girl:
I appreciate you taking the time to comment. Thank you!
It’s been a while since I’ve posted here. My marital struggles continue, and I still haven’t found a way out of my marriage. It does appear that things may be improving in that regard, although the circumstances are sad. My father passed away, so the inheritance will help me get out. I don’t think my wife will ever agree to separation no matter what, so I may have to take the money and rent a place for a bit and bring my daughter. Then I can petition to sell the house. I think this is the only solution. I did mention to her yesterday calmly and cordially that I still want a divorce and asked her why she doesn’t see we would be better off apart. I told her she is clearly not happy with me either. She didn’t answer. I doubt this strategy will work, but there is a small chance it might work before I finally get my inheritance (there are some complications with that). Getting her to agree to separation would be easier, but I’m not holding my breath.
Last weekend, my LO and her best friend shunned me on a night out. I was really upset. Honestly, I’ve been heartbroken over it. I’ve felt terrible stress and lovesickness. I’ve hardly slept, I’m hardly eating, I simply cannot function at work, and I ended up getting a cold. I’m a mess. I don’t know what I did.
I also found out that my LO has unfriended and blocked one of my best friends on Facebook (I was never her Facebook friend, but we have messaged each other in the past, and I have confirmed I’m not blocked). I don’t know what he did either, although I have some ideas. His behaviour has been pretty bad the last year or so. He has been pissing a lot of people off with threats, vendettas, political arguments and propositioning some of our female friends (he is married). I haven’t seen much of him lately though due to health and family issues. The tricky thing is we’re close, and I’ve confided a lot about my LO to him. He has also tried to set me up with women in the past, which I do not want and do not think is appropriate (I won’t cheat even if my marriage is basically dead). I even thought he had tried to do that with my LO at one point. He hadn’t, but it caused some awkwardness with my LO after I asked her about it. Still, things seemed fine after that and we have gotten along really well even after that.
As a response, I sent a couple of cryptic messages to a group chat my LO and her friend are also on. One was about saying I’m done with arguing about politics and don’t want to let it affect my friendships with anyone (I suspected my friend may have pissed off a friend of hers with a political insult). I also posted a message saying I don’t want to be considered guilty by association and that if someone has pissed you off and that person is someone I’m close to, please don’t let it affect our friendship. I also said I can be friends with someone and not support their actions or the way they behave. No response from her or her best friend, but I know both have seen those messages.
The guy she blocked is basically trying to tell me I need to forget about her and she was never a good fit for me. He swears he never messaged her, but I don’t know if I believe him. Why would she block him? If I find out he propositioned her, I will NEVER forgive him, especially given how he knows about my feelings for her. It could be that my LO is afraid I would confront him about it. I wouldn’t do that, but I would definitely initiate a slow fade (even though I’m not seeing much of him anyway these days). My other friends are saying I probably shouldn’t say anything to her, but I could if it’s really bothering me. I feel like this friend of mine is causing me (and other people he is associated with) to lose friends.
The other odd thing is that, when I look back, my LO was weird towards me three times in particular (including last weekend). All three times she was out with a male friend who is also a friend of mine, although I don’t know him super well. This guy is married too. I’ve heard he also likes her, although I’ve also been told he is happily married and wouldn’t do anything about it. I do find that odd. Supposedly my LO’s morals are so solid and can’t get close to me because I’m married but seems to be very close to another married man I’ve been told also has feelings for her. Hmm.
I will likely never know what’s wrong with my LO and her best friend. Her best friend made a semi-rude comment to me last month when I saw her, but I wasn’t angry. I am also wondering if they think I was angry, but I wasn’t. She made a valid point (it was about my marital situation). I will take them as I find them if I see them again, but I’m done with my LO’s hot and cold behaviour. I need to focus on recovering from limerence at this point. It was always just a fantasy. Sure, I did dream of one day ending my marriage, getting a place of my own, slimming down, getting really serious about the gym and being the best version of myself and then asking my LO on a date. However, I always realized that wasn’t likely to happen and there are many other fish in the sea. I have spent more than six years now in a perpetual state of limerence. The only way I got over limerent crushes was through transference to someone else (I refer to this current lady as LO #3). I am hoping to kick the habit altogether now. I do feel a little better at this point, but my recovery isn’t linear. Any recommendations? I’ve read up on heartbreak over someone you view as an “almost”. I still kind of view her as my almost because I am finally starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel with the end of my marriage.
To Vicarious Limerent:
I couldn’t understand all of your post because I got stuck on something right at the beginning.
What is the situation with the divorce laws where you live? My ex just dumped me and filed for divorce. There’s no “permission” issue at all. He didn’t ask me, he TOLD me, and then laughed about it.
Are there strict grounds for divorce in your jurisdiction?
Basically, the only three grounds for divorce here are living separate and apart for one year, extreme cruelty/abuse or adultery. Permission is not required for separation or divorce, but a divorce won’t be granted unless one of those grounds applies. In-house separation is possible, but the conditions are very strict and my wife would never agree to those. I know I don’t require her permission for either, but I do need her permission to sell the matrimonial home.
We are massively in debt and still have a mortgage. There is a huge cost of living crisis here and house prices and rents are astronomical. People tell me, “Just leave!” but that’s easier said than done. There is literally nowhere for me to go, and I don’t even have money to rent a room. I also have to consider my daughter since things are so awful between her and my wife that I worry one or both of them would end up dead. The only way I believe I can afford to get out is to wait for the inheritance or wait for my share of the equity in the house. I could petition a court to force a sale of the house, but I could never take my wife to court while living under the same roof. She would be violent, damage property, ruin my reputation, cause a scene and tell everyone my secrets. I have to work from home most of the time, and living under the same roof would be unbearable. I believe I would have to leave before petitioning a court to order a sale. It would not be safe otherwise.
To Vicarious Limerent:
Thank you for that explanation. I see your dilemma.
My condolences on the loss of your Father. I know that must be rough on your emotional state right now. It is however at least one thing in your life that is finalized. Be grateful for the impact he had on you and that his suffering is now done. Also be grateful that its one less issue you have going on in the midst of those dark situations. You seem to be taking things with some grace and I commend you for that. I’m currently dealing with my Fathers slow fade due to Parkinsons. I don’t know how I’d be faring emotionally if I was dealing with that and a messy home situation similar to yours, but it probably wouldn’t be good. I’m sorry you’re still going through it.
Hopefully some of the inheritance will help you get a start soon. Your homelife situation seems untenable at this point. I don’t know why your Wife doesn’t see things as miserable as they are. Or that she feels being combative is helpful. I’d rather live in my car than put up with that.
My first suggestion is start finding a way to get out now. Find a family member, neighbor, friend, whoever to live with. Take your Daughter with you. So that you can satisfy that state law of being separated for a year. I’ve never heard of such a thing, but then again I’m not versed in divorce law either. Whenever the inheritance hits, find a good Attorney in your area to help you navigate steps to take next. In my situation, my Wife didn’t need or not need my cooperation. She just took care of it all and got what she wanted. I didn’t fight her but I didn’t cooperate either. She still got bragging rights. I didn’t cooperate because I didn’t want it. I was just out of gas and done with the bickering. Let her go. I’m probably better off.
As for LO, I think you’re putting too much thought into an un-reality you can’t or don’t really need to deal with right now. Its nice to think about a better future, without all the riff raff and ugliness, but try to remember any long term plans you want to make right now are probably going to look a whole different once you arrive there. At least thats how it worked out for me.
As for your other male buddy, I think you should start cutting him off too. He just seems immature to me and your situations feel high-schoolish. Given the state of your emotions, and limerence heartbreak, you could use better friends right now. People you can trust more.
Although I’m not actually there. I could be wrong.
Thanks for the kind words. Other than my father’s death, there have been some seriously stressful things going on at home. It’s been really tough.
Forgetting my LO is easier said than done. We’re all on this site because we’re trying to deal with limerence. I’ve always known she was just a dream or even a fantasy. I’ve put this woman on a pedestal she doesn’t deserve. Her hot and cold behaviour is just bizzare, although I suspect she enjoyed the attention and kind of stringing me along. Having said that, I still think she’s beautiful and totally my type, and there are lots of things I like about her. I only ever wanted a friendship with her and the faint hope of maybe one day asking her on a date when my situation changes. I still retain that faint hope, although it is now much fainter than it was and I realize there are plenty other fish in the sea.
I know deep down that I shouldn’t be thinking of anyone else right now. I should be focusing on getting out of my marriage first and maybe living a purposeful life with hobbies, interests, fitness and weight loss. Only then should I think about dating. The problem is I’ve been living in a dead, sexless marriage for eight years, and for the last five years I’ve known for certain that I’ve wanted out and have reiterated to my wife hundreds of times that I want separation and divorce and that nothing will change my mind. I have already grieved the end of my marriage, and I am ready to start my new life. The problem is my wife is delusional and (I believe) mentally ill. What kind of woman would want to stay with a man who rejects her over and over, whom she doesn’t even respect in the first place? Life is too short for that crap.
Some people have suggested I should wait several years after separation before I date, but I think I’ve already completed the grieving process and would be alright to date after months rather than years (although NOT on day one of separation). When my LO and her friend (mainly her friend) lectured me about needing to end my marriage in January, I almost wished it was a subtle way of telling me to get out before pursuing anything with my LO, but that was probably wishful thinking. Both of them did seem to be pleased with me when I told them I would try to use the inheritance to get out. Could that be why they ignored me, and maybe the crap with my friend was just a red herring?
My male friend was sort of the patriarch or alpha male of our friend group. He basically brought as all together and was the glue that held us together. He keeps on referring to me as his best friend, but in so many ways he doesn’t treat me like a best friend. I know he’s going through a lot of shit in his life too, but he has fought with people, pissed them off, engaged in threats, vendettas and physical altercations, obsesses over politics and posts constantly about them (even though my politics are the same as his, I don’t want to lose friends over this issue). Propositioning our female friends is just awful. They all just ignore it, but it’s creepy. He outright says he doesn’t care if he loses friends, but I feel differently. People are starting to distance themselves from him, and I don’t want to be guilty by association. On the other hand, I feel somewhat guilty cutting off a guy who has been good to me and was the catalyst for developing the social life I have now — especially when he calls me his best friend. I don’t want to have a big falling out with him, but I kind of want to initiate a slow fade or at least put him on the back burner. I also want it to be known that I don’t condone his actions or behaviours. If he propositioned my LO I would never feel the same way about him though. He says he never messaged her, but I am not sure I believe him.
Hi Vicarious,
Thanks for the update and being so open.
I appreciate that your marriage issues are challenging but maybe some new options are possible in the future, hopefully.
And very sorry for the loss of your father, that is tough and time to grieve is a real priority and takes a long time too.
In terms of your friendship group, just my view, that all the goings on with ‘ he said’ ‘she said’ ‘unfriended’ ‘ not unfriended’ is a little bit college-grade stuff.
I think you are more mature than all of that ?
Maybe take a step back to reflect what’s really important, who are actually your real friends or just superficial for going out, socialising and passing time(which is also fine if that’s all you want )
Also if I may suggest to say, why wait to slim down/exercise etc ? Why not just do it for yourself and not for LO or anyone else, just for you and your personal goals and happiness and health.
It’s a good healthy transference tactic from limerence to focus on. I have done this, kinda successfully, and I know many others use it in the same way to help reduce limerence by channelling all that energy into something positive and beautifully self centered!
Best wishes
You are correct. This is actually high school bullshit. I’m not sure if I am engaging in it though, although my male friend, my LO and her best friend seem to be. We are all in our 50s and 60s, so it is immature. Why ignore me? It was super odd. I didn’t do anything, unless my friend said something about me to her that implicated me somehow. Please remember I am limerent for this woman, so I can’t just turn off the feelings, although this may ultimately help in my recovery. The world seems like a sadder and greyer place without the dream of my LO, but limerence is ultimately a destructive force (although I do believe it can be harnessed at times).
I understand what you’re saying about becoming the best version of myself. I’m not waiting. I am trying to get there, but the transformation will take time. I have recently become more focused on the gym and more determined to lose weight. This lovesickness has really kickstarted my weight loss journey, so I am at least grateful for that. I am an emotional eater when I’m sad or stressed, except when I’m really, really stressed, and then it’s the opposite with a considerably diminished appetite. In the past, I’ve used limerence as a motivation for weight loss and fitness. I’ve been finding it difficult to do that again recently, but I am pretty sure I’m finally back on the wagon.
I just spent an hour with LO. We had a lovely time. He is being surprisingly supportive about my (possible) cancer, and asked me lot of questions.
This is unusual for him, since he is pretty self-absorbed.
He offered to drive me to the hospital if I need surgery. I can handle everything else by myself.
I don’t think it would be a good idea to take him up on this, but I appreciated the offer.
I can see where LO showing me kindness and consideration makes my limerence worse. But I also feel better after having seen him.
Oh Norma D, I’m so sorry to hear about your health troubles and I hope that the breast cancer turns out to be a false alarm, or easily treatable. You’re in my thoughts.
I hope that LO being nice helps you and doesn’t result in a limerence backslide.
To Miss Cloud:
Thank you for saying that. I stated elsewhere that his kindness over my earlier cancer episode in 2022 may have been what started the limerence in the first place.
I would much rather ask a female neighbor to drive me, if such becomes necessary. I would be uncomfortable asking LO for such a thing.
And this type of cancer IS easily treatable. I am less nervous than I was before, because I at least know my way around. The surgery was not nearly as bad as I had feared.
And it COULD be a false alarm, although I am prepared for it not to be.
I discovered this blog today after experiencing the glimmer with an online friend of mine. My last LE was with my departed husband of 1 year. He was a bad LO and gaslighted me constantly up until he shot himself in the head in front of me (after spending all of our relationship denying that he had any suicidal tendencies).
I’ve learned a lot since then even though it hasn’t even been a year yet. Limerence has clouded my ability to chose a loving partner and I use limerence as a coping skill to “get high.” Therefore I’d like to avoid it as much as possible until i have healthier coping skills to rely on. I’ve been doing some personal work through ACA (Adult Children of Alcoholics) and have noticed some parallels between how limerence is described on this blog and how romantic exploits are described in ACA literature.
Besides, I don’t think it is appropriate for a young widow such as myself to be engaged in sexual or romantic activities any time soon. I want to focus on living a purposeful life. Once I am living a purposeful life, then I can think about adding romance and sex back into the mix.
Hi, AYW,
That’s a lot to go through.
It’s good to see that your getting help from ACA. Are you seeing any other pros to help get through this? LwL has a lot of great information and people on it but it’s not a replacement for professional help when it’s called for.
It’s great that you recognized that you see the glimmer in an online friend and are appropriately wary.
Just out of curiosity, what do you do for a living? If you want to pull some strings, I recommend https://sharischreiber.com/do-you-love-to-be-needed/ by Shari Schreiber. It might apply to you or it might not.
If you haven’t found it yet, check out the Archives at the bottom of the page.
Welcome, A-Young-Widow.
What a lot to go through. Sending lots of love and healing in your direction. I’m glad you’ve found this blog and I hope you have plenty of support and help around you. xxx
This human life
Maggie Smith
must look so small, undetectable even,
from the vantage point where I imagine
a god could see me, and I do sometimes
imagine a god like a sentient star
out beyond where our instruments
could find it, then I talk myself
out of the image. Out of the concept
entirely. From a distance, I know
I’m an ant tunneling my way
through sand between plastic panels,
watched—or not—from outside.
My puny movements on this planet,
all the things I’ve done or built
with my own body or mind, seem
like nothing at all. But from the inside
this life feels enormous, unlimited
by the self—by selfness—
vaster even than the sparkling
dark it can’t be seen from.
Why Wake up Happy
Quincy Scott Jones
when i can creep into our 3 am bed
slink into the sliver of mattress
you saved for me watch the streetlight
slice through the curtain leaving a streak
of fluorescence in your hair stare
at the ceiling and wait maybe
you’ll steal back the covers maybe
you’ll offer me your leg maybe
you’ll beg for quiet then in a whisper
so not to stir the monster masquerading
as jeans on a chair you’ll ask get any
writing done? no, read two articles though.
they say love is no different than large amounts of chocolate.
also, the cocoa bean will soon be no more.
Forever is composed of Nows (25)
Emily Dickinson
1830 –1886
Forever is composed of Nows —
’Tis not a different time,
Except for infiniteness
And latitude of home.
From this, experienced here,
Remove the dates to these,
Let months dissolve in further months,
And years exhale in years.
Without certificate or pause
Or celebrated days,
As infinite our years would be
As Anno Domini’s.
The Means to Attain Happy Life
Martial
translated from the Latin by Henry Howard
Marital, the things that do attain
The happy life be these, I find:—
The richesse left, not got with pain,
The fruitful ground; the quiet mind;
The equal friend; no grudge, no strife;
No charge of rule nor governance;
Without disease the healthful life;
The household of continuance;
The mean diet, no delicate fare;
True wisdom join’d with simpleness;
The night dischargèd of all care,
Where wine the wit may not oppress;
The faithful wife, without debate;
Such sleeps as may beguile the night:
Contented with thine own estate,
Ne wish for death, ne fear his might.
Just posting a small health update. I just got back from a cancer biopsy.
LO is being surprisingly kind regarding my health issues, so I must stay constantly on guard so as not to backslide.
I should have the results in a few days. For anyone who is so inclined, please send me good thoughts.
Dear Norma,
I had been wondering about how you were getting on. Sending lots and lots of Good Thoughts to you. I do hope the biopsy was not too uncomfortable. Uncertainty sucks…I hope they let you know results very quickly.
Bx
To Bewitched:
I did much better during this biopsy than I did during the previous one. I think it may have to do with the location? Not sure, but it was far easier this time.
I am taped up like a mummy and waiting for results in a few days.
Thank you for thinking of me.
“Love is a skill, rather than an emotion” — short || Alain de Bottom –
https://youtube.com/shorts/lzqqixi2-x0?si=V-yngDYzlqQGEX8t
“Love is a skill, not a feeling” — Full interview with Alain Botton
https://youtu.be/kRMcimuuk0Q?si=DDwUvCUy33T3Gthh —
Moved our chat to this post.
LaR,
“When I say we can’t expect to change a person, I mean at a fundamental level of who they are.”
I agree.
” But in my experience, you can’t last within a couple without being prepared to adapt to the other person”
But what if it’s not an SO? (I read your response. Thanks for answering so thoroughly.) This is just an example. Let’s say you have a best friend and your parent dies and this person is MIA and you’re hurt by that. Do you say something? If so, does it do any good?(Meaning the friend tries to be more present in the future?) Or what if you have a sibling who makes plans and then frequently changes them/cancels them? Or takes 3 weeks to return texts. Have you had a similar experience and you’ve brought up whatever they did that bothered you and the other person changed their behavior? (Not an SO.) Or are people less likely to want to work on things if the person is not an SO?
“There has to be some give, or the couple will fall apart. It’s important that both people feel they can stand up for what they need, without it taking over. ”
What is an example of something you’ve asked for from your SO? (I don’t mean practical stuff like cleaning but more emotional stuff.)
“So I had that sort of chat with SO after about a month of dating, but we had already got physical by then.”
But can you see why that’s taking a risk? Because if I sleep with you on date 3 or 4, I don’t know who else you’re hooking up with/dating. How do I know you’re not dating 3 other women? How would you feel if we met on a dating site and we hook up and the next day you get back on the dating site and see that I’m on there, probably looking for/talking to other dudes?
” I’ve found most of my relationships progressed quite naturally to being physical within 3 or 4 dates and before having ‘the conversation’. And my intention was never to ‘get it and go’ in those instances.”
But would you say you’re more of a “relationship guy,” for lack of a better description ?
“I have only one example where that wasn’t true, and she was no-sex-before-marriage for religious reasons.”
I don’t think it’s even about religion. There are plenty of people who won’t have sex until they’re in a relationship.
“How long would you need to date someone before you knew that you wanted to explore that possibility?”
How soon do I know if I really like someone and I want to see him again and hope he feels the same and ditches the other hos? 🙂 Date one. Don’t you know right away?
” It can take me a couple of months – depending how we define ‘serious’.”
But you just wrote you had the dtr with your SO after a month ?
Serious … I see you as my boyfriend. If I had to introduce you at a party, it wouldn’t be weird for me to say “my boyfriend.” We’re monogamous. We’re only dating/hooking up with each other and we’re together. (Not moving in together or something like that.)
“Could you be sure, though, that he was only after short term? I wasn’t there so I don’t know … but I was going to say there’s no guarantee that’s all he was after.”
He fell off the planet after date two. So he either only wanted sex, lost interest or met someone else. And then when he reappeared months later with barely more than “hey” … doesn’t it kind of imply he’s just tossing it out there to see if I’m game? If he really wanted more than a hook up, wouldn’t have he at least made some effort to make conversation and explain why he fell off the planet?
” I know there’s a lot of chat around in favour of the first way… but does it work like that when it really comes down to it?”
The best answer I can give is…it really depends on the woman.
But here’s another question … does it go both ways for men? Can men be both? Both emotive/communicative/emotionally intelligent and masculine?
“If they have a ton of charisma, then I’d take cute looks, over someone who is better looking but vain, dull or arrogant. Every day of the week.”
I agree. I just hate the word “cute.” It sounds like you’re describing a dog. Or something completely inoffensive.
“I drifted from her after she cheated on my friend (see – bro code 🙂).”
Sausage party. 🙂
“How can it ever go well when you know from the get-go that the partner has affairs?”
I suppose there have to be some instances where it works, but as a general rule, an affair is an escape from reality … and reality will show up eventually.
“But a couple of messages back you said his disclosure was really selfish. So how do you square that, if you were kind of encouraging him? ”
I wasn’t “kind of” encouraging him. 🙂 At the time, I really wanted him to disclose. But, with some hindsight … it only made things worse. I dug my heels in more to the LE. And I can’t definitively tell you why he disclosed, but if it was only to verify my feelings, to get some “feelz” out of it for himself … yes, I think that was selfish. No matter what you might think of LO-lite … he did follow through.
“Like – where is the story on LwL from anyone EVER, that says “my LO was so pleased when I disclosed!”. ”
True, I haven’t read one story like that.
“If it helps cement the point, my LO is an avoidant.”
I may be, too.
“I think my LO would feel that way.”
I can’t even begin to tell you how uncomfortable it is.
You also previously wrote she’s moralistic. (I don’t mean the word in a negative way.) So she might be grossed out that you would even say anything.
OTOH, I’m not entirely sure what her motivation is… asking a partnered guy to hang out, one-one-one. And I mean that, I don’t know. Some people really think men and women can be friends and to suggest otherwise is, in their minds, limiting and reducing everything to sex. But maybe there was other motivation there on her part. Idk.
“But could you ever believe it if a male friend said that to you alongside a disclosure, or would you always feel faked by him in that situation? (I know your recent experience of that has been terrible, but I’m talking more generally).”
I could believe it. Yes. But because there is another component to things beyond friendship, it feels like a bait and switch if you don’t own that other interest right away. Like you’re hiding it.
“At the time yes. Her experiences were more of being an LO than a limerent.”
And had the person who was limerent for her disclosed? And how can you tell you’re someone’s LO? I think my guy friend had some feelings. Was I his LO? Idk. You’d have to have a very specific conversation with someone to determine that, and most people, even if they admitted interest or romantic feelings, would know to tone down their obsessive feelings for fear of scaring the person off and sounding cray.
“(That is – the limerence is harder to end because I don’t want to give the companionship up).”
Companionship … meaning time spent together? What was she providing as a friend that other friends can’t? What have you lost (not including the limerence)?
“His recent texts are odd.”
I agree. I’m not sure what he’s trying to accomplish with them.
“You pays your money and you gets your goods 🙂”
But the goods need to show up before I age another year. 🙂
“The (quite big) difference was that when I formed the initial friendship with her many many moons ago (and yes, I was a bit attracted then), she was partnered and I wasn’t. So the ethical question for me is not so much about forming the friendship, but more about whether I should have abandoned it when I met SO. ”
You were attracted and from what you’ve written, you’re someone who becomes more attracted as you become closer to the person. Gotta pick chicks you’re not attracted to .
That’s why I wrote … 98 percent of my male friends, I was not attracted to. It might even be as high as 99. The one in high school … I did have a thing about him.
Marcia,
We’d been in that other coffeehouse a fair while, it probably was about time we moved before we annoyed the patrons.
“But what if it’s not an SO?”
‘Blue-sky thinking’ – I’d flag it once and let them know how it makes me feel, give them a chance to respond/improve, and see what happens. If there’s no change, I wouldn’t ask again. But see below, as I think this is harder in practice than in theory.
“Let’s say you have a best friend and your parent dies and this person is MIA and you’re hurt by that. Do you say something?”
As above, ideally yes. But if I was dealing with a parent dying, it would be a stretch to light the tinderbox with a friend on top. Can it do any good? Depends on the friend. I’d maybe try and say something like “I’m really struggling with … at the moment” and hope they get the hint.
“Or what if you have a sibling who makes plans and then frequently changes them/cancels them? Or takes 3 weeks to return texts.”
In that example, I’m more likely to let it drift. Sit it out and wait for them make the next move. If they don’t, then so be it – you learn something about them, even if you don’t like it.
As a footnote, I’m trying to think how ‘sibling’ would affect the response here compared to ‘friend’. We can choose our friends but we can’t choose our siblings, but what should that suggest to us – make more effort with the sibling, or more with the friend? I’d need to think about that.
“Have you had a similar experience and you’ve brought up whatever they did that bothered you and the other person changed their behavior?”
I don’t have many examples of success. I have had friendships – when much younger – that got broken then repaired, but I can’t remember how the repair happened.
I can give one recent example but I need to be vague. This friend did something VERY surprising and offensive to me. I got angry with him about it, and we had a shouting match – at that stage I also behaved a bit out of line. We then didn’t communicate for a year. I resisted his attempts to get back in contact. It was eventually mediated by another friend who liked our previous ‘group of 3’ dynamic, who helped patch it up. For years, the patch-up was based on “agree to disagree” – neither of us gave any ground other than apologies about our behaviour in the shouting match. Only in the last few years (10 years after the original incident) he has given ground and admitted he was out of line. I have never given ground, but I would have done if I thought I was wrong.
“Or are people less likely to want to work on things if the person is not an SO?”
Yes.
“What is an example of something you’ve asked for from your SO?”
To be listened to more; for disagreement to be seen as healthy, not a reason for confrontation (or for it not to be assumed that I’m trying to create a confrontation by disagreeing). There’s some unpicking of old stuff (of both of ours) wrapped up in that.
“But can you see why that’s taking a risk? … How would you feel if we met on a dating site and we hook up and the next day you get back on the dating site and see that I’m on there, probably looking for/talking to other dudes?”
We’re assessing this through different lenses, as the market didn’t really work like that when I was last dating. Well maybe it did a bit, but that’s not how I operated. I fully understand why it’s a big risk in the online dating market today.
“But would you say you’re more of a “relationship guy,” for lack of a better description ?”
Yes, and I hoped and believed that women would catch that vibe if I went on a date with them.
“I don’t think it’s even about religion. There are plenty of people who won’t have sex until they’re in a relationship.”
With that person, it definitely was about religion. Being in a relationship didn’t change it. She was upfront about it before we started out.
[“How long would you need to date someone before you knew that you wanted to explore that possibility [of getting serious]?”]
“How soon do I know if I really like someone and I want to see him again and hope he feels the same and ditches the other hos? Date one. Don’t you know right away?”
Yes. We were on different pages about what we meant by serious. By your definition, I do know that right away. I probably wouldn’t even be there on a first date with someone (if a person I met in real life) if I didn’t know it.
I was more talking about planning a future together. I don’t quite mean the house, marriage, kids, but a lighter version of it – an aspiration for long-term commitment. That’s the bit I need a couple of/few months to be more sure about.
“But you just wrote you had the dtr with your SO after a month ?”
That was mainly an exclusivity conversation.
“Serious … I see you as my boyfriend. If I had to introduce you at a party, it wouldn’t be weird for me to say “my boyfriend.”
Do you find the terms ‘boyfriend’ and ‘girlfriend’ weirder as we get older? SO and I struggle with that sometimes! You can say ‘partner’ but that has other connotations too.
“He fell off the planet after date two”
OK – you convinced me that he was only after one thing.
“does it go both ways for men? Can men be both? Both emotive/ communicative/ emotionally intelligent and masculine?”
This is over-simplifying, but imagine it as a pie-chart with two sections, masculinity and emotional/communicative intelligence. The pie can be 100% of one thing and none of the other, 50-50, or anything in-between. But the total still needs to be 100. As you gain more of either one, so you lose a bit of the other.
“I just hate the word “cute.” It sounds like you’re describing a dog. Or something completely inoffensive.”
Yeah, it’s not like being described as ‘hot’, at all 🙂
“Sausage party🙂 ”
Have you seen that film? And apparently there is now a TV series of it.
“I can’t definitively tell you why he disclosed, but if it was only to verify my feelings, to get some “feelz” out of it for himself … yes, I think that was selfish. No matter what you might think of LO-lite … he did follow through.”
I’ve got it. I think the combination of disclosure without follow-through is the one you really object to. And I can see why. I always realised that trying to verify what I thought in my limerent mind was an invalid and selfish reason to disclose.
You haven’t led me to a fully negative view of LO-lite, by the way. Of some limitations and some contradictions in him, yes. But of him as a bad person, no.
“I may be [avoidant], too.”
Don’t know if it’s the same for you, but the fact is not obvious of her until you scratch the surface. She doesn’t put the fact out there – in fact, often the opposite. It’s something I didn’t know for many years.
“You also previously wrote she’s moralistic. (I don’t mean the word in a negative way.) So she might be grossed out that you would even say anything.”
Yes, I’d say she would. She indirectly confirmed the fact by referring to how she felt about (real) examples of such things among her friends.
“OTOH, I’m not entirely sure what her motivation is… asking a partnered guy to hang out, one-one-one.”
I can give you three realistic but different possibilities, and I don’t know which one is right. The first (quite likely) is that she actually does just believe men and women can be friends. The second (less likely) is she hoped at one point she could turn my head. The third (most likely, and a variation on the first) is that that she saw me as a safe bet. She knows we’re both moral people… so based on that, she can play around a bit with boundaries a bit (and I don’t mean that horribly) whilst everything stays quite safe. It’s not going anywhere, so she gets to go up to certain lines and receive the bits of me she likes, without the complications or the having to argue about who does the washing up 🙂
“I could believe it. Yes.”
But it’s incredibly hard to find the words to communicate it (I mean as the ‘giver’ of the message). Ultimately, I guess you (plural) show it through follow through – that is, properly commit to friendship and DO NOT act like your recent male friend did after disclosure. But it needs both people to be big enough to give that a chance.
“But because there is another component to things beyond friendship, it feels like a bait and switch if you don’t own that other interest right away. Like you’re hiding it.”
Yes, that will always be there won’t it? I could give a many valid reason why I hid it from LO if it ever did come out (work, the fact I have an SO), but I still pretended and masked.
“And how can you tell you’re someone’s LO?”
I think only if you spot patterns over time. Like you say, the limerent will usually take steps to mask it. But don’t you think you’d see through those in the end? Here’s the huge clue – he’d be VERY attentive to you. He’d remember details of what you said, or what you were up to, that you wouldn’t expect him to, and always follow up on those. And possibly do lots of ‘acts of kindness’. Eye contact. Staring. Orbiting. Even if he’s trying to mask it, some of those things will slip through. If it goes on a while, it’s probably limerence, not just a crush.
“What have you lost (not including the limerence)?”
I don’t know how far to wax lyrical on this, or not. Short (ish) version – someone who really ‘gets me’, and knows how to respond to me without needing to be told how. I’m very comfortable around her, whether either or both of us is in a good or bad mood. I don’t find those people too often.
“But the goods need to show up before I age another year”
What, you mean you don’t order on Amazon and then patiently await the delivery in a year’s time?! Everything is so ‘instant gratification’ these days! (I’m pulling your leg).
“Gotta pick chicks you’re not attracted to .”
And why don’t we do that? The reasons come back to that answer you said was my most honest thing I’ve written ever. But I really think I’m less vulnerable to doing that again after this LE than I was prior to it.
LaR,
“it probably was about time we moved before we annoyed the patrons.”
I only moved it because the comment box was removed. I’m not concerned with the other patrons. 🙂
“If there’s no change, I wouldn’t ask again. But see below, as I think this is harder in practice than in theory.”
I agree with you. I’ll ask once. I’m not going to keep asking.
“But if I was dealing with a parent dying, it would be a stretch to light the tinderbox with a friend on top. ”
I don’t know what this means. 🙂 I meant … they know your parent is sick, is dying, whatever … and they make no effort to reach out, to see if you need anything.
” We can choose our friends but we can’t choose our siblings, but what should that suggest to us – make more effort with the sibling, or more with the friend? I’d need to think about that.”
I think it would depend on the nature of the relationship with the sibling. With some people, you’ve got what you’ve got. There’s no point in bringing anything up. The relationship won’t change.
“I don’t have many examples of success. ”
Me, neither. And somewhat similar to your example, arguments usually ended the friendship. Or with one friend, specifically, I tried to bring up the topic later, once things cooled down (we had tense, testy words rather than a shouting match), and I was rather condescendingly told by this person that adults just got on with things. I didn’t think we needed to dwell on it, but it seemed weird not to discuss it at all.
“I resisted his attempts to get back in contact.”
Was he attempting to apologize?
“neither of us gave any ground other than apologies about our behaviour in the shouting match. :”
That’s something, I guess.
“Only in the last few years (10 years after the original incident) he has given ground and admitted he was out of line.”
Were you able to rebuild the friendship back to where it had been before the argument once the 3rd party intervened?
Ten years is a very long time to acknowledge being wrong.
[“Or are people less likely to want to work on things if the person is not an SO?”]
“Yes.”
Then what’s the point of having close friends? I mean that in all seriousness. Because at some point, you’re going to disagree about something. Or one of you is going to let the other down. If friendship isn’t a relationship people are willing to work on, what’s the point? (And I mean close friends here. )
“To be listened to more; for disagreement to be seen as healthy, not a reason for confrontation (or for it not to be assumed that I’m trying to create a confrontation by disagreeing). ”
And have things improved in those areas once you articulated what you needed?
“Well maybe it did a bit, but that’s not how I operated. I fully understand why it’s a big risk in the online dating market today.”
Online or not, it’s still a risk.
“Yes, and I hoped and believed that women would catch that vibe if I went on a date with them.”
Idk. I’m not big on reading “vibes.” You don’t know someone after a date or 2 or 3. I thought my male friend was a good guy. Then I got to know him. 🙂 And to be clear, I don’t think he’s a horrible person, but he’s not the person I initially thought he was.
“With that person, it definitely was about religion. Being in a relationship didn’t change it. She was upfront about it before we started out.”
So you never had sex? I have to be honest, that would have killed it for me. I mean, if it was never going to be on the table.
“I was more talking about planning a future together. I don’t quite mean the house, marriage, kids, but a lighter version of it – an aspiration for long-term commitment. That’s the bit I need a couple of/few months to be more sure about.”
Why? I can tell pretty quickly if this is a guy I want as a boyfriend and I lose interest in meeting anyone else. Now, I can’t say I’ll still be with him for the rest of my days or even 3 months later. It’s a discovery process in getting to know each other. But I’m aiming for something serious and I’m not just looking to kill time and hang out.
“That was mainly an exclusivity conversation.”
Exclusivity is a loophole. It means you’re not sleeping with other people. It doesn’t mean you’re not dating other people.
“Do you find the terms ‘boyfriend’ and ‘girlfriend’ weirder as we get older? ”
Not in the context I mentioned. In the early phase. We wouldn’t yet be “partners.” Partner would be … you’re in it the rest of your days. Maybe you live together. Share expenses, etc.
“As you gain more of either one, so you lose a bit of the other.”
Ok … yes, from my perspective, a man can have too much emotional pie in the overall chart. Now, again, this will be a very individual answer, per the woman in question.
“Yeah, it’s not like being described as ‘hot’, at all 🙂”
Exactly. I have to be honest: I ‘m not even big on pretty. That implies visually pleasing but almost someone you could overlook or dismiss. Like nice wallpaper. Hot, sexy. That sounds good. 🙂
“Have you seen that film? And apparently there is now a TV series of it.”
No, I haven’t.
“I’ve got it. I think the combination of disclosure without follow-through is the one you really object to. ”
I have zero interest in endless flirtation.
“You haven’t led me to a fully negative view of LO-lite, by the way. Of some limitations and some contradictions in him, yes. But of him as a bad person, no.”
A couple of days ago, I looked at the photos of himself he texted me –yes, clothed — a million years ago. I shouldn’t have done that. I’ve been good. I haven’t done that in months.
“but the fact is not obvious of her until you scratch the surface. She doesn’t put the fact out there – in fact, often the opposite. It’s something I didn’t know for many years.”
How would someone make it obvious? Outside of revealing a lot of short-term relationships and/or not being in a relationship for a while.
“Yes, I’d say she would. She indirectly confirmed the fact by referring to how she felt about (real) examples of such things among her friends.”
Then I wouldn’t say anything to her. She might be so upset, she cut off the friendship.
“The third (most likely, and a variation on the first) is that that she saw me as a safe bet. She knows we’re both moral people… so based on that, she can play around a bit with boundaries a bit (and I don’t mean that horribly) whilst everything stays quite safe. It’s not going anywhere, so she gets to go up to certain lines and receive the bits of me she likes, without the complications or the having to argue about who does the washing up 🙂”
That’s what I did with my male friends. I wasn’t actively, consciously, leading them on. But getting some male energy/male attention (and yes, a friendship with a man is different than with a woman) and being fine with the boundaries that were in place. In retrospect, was that selfish? Maybe. As of course we never discussed the boundaries until later, when they clunkily brought them up. I was making assumptions that they wanted what I wanted.
“But it needs both people to be big enough to give that a chance.”
True, but it’s a little different in that my male friend is single. So there’s no gray zone of someone disclosing and being married. Or someone disclosing to a married person.
“Yes, that will always be there won’t it? I could give a many valid reason why I hid it from LO if it ever did come out (work, the fact I have an SO), but I still pretended and masked.”
I mean … with my male friend … there was no reason to hide it.
” He’d remember details of what you said, or what you were up to, that you wouldn’t expect him to, and always follow up on those.”
I don’t think I’ve ever had someone do that.
“Eye contact. Staring. Orbiting.”
This is what my last big LO did. I would say at the very least he had a crush on me. It was obvious. How deep that ran and … and how many other women he might have been interested in at the same time or crushing on… Idk.
The other one … I don’t think there was all that much going on on his side, but I don’t really know.
” Short (ish) version – someone who really ‘gets me’, and knows how to respond to me without needing to be told how. I’m very comfortable around her, whether either or both of us is in a good or bad mood. I don’t find those people too often.”
That would be rare, yes.
“And why don’t we do that?”
Who is this “we”? I don’t befriend people I’m attracted to. You do. 🙂
Marcia,
[“But if I was dealing with a parent dying, it would be a stretch to light the tinderbox with a friend on top.”]
“I don’t know what this means. I meant … they know your parent is sick, is dying, whatever … and they make no effort to reach out, to see if you need anything.”
I meant … challenging or confronting a friend’s behaviour comes with the risk that their reaction won’t be good, like in both our examples. If a parent was dying, I might not have the head space to confront it. I’d ideally want to, but might not have capacity.
“I think it would depend on the nature of the relationship with the sibling. With some people, you’ve got what you’ve got. There’s no point in bringing anything up. The relationship won’t change.”
I agree – with some people. And whether they’re a sibling or not doesn’t make a huge difference to the principle.
“I didn’t think we needed to dwell on it, but it seemed weird not to discuss it at all.”
What isn’t discussed will always fester.
[“I resisted his attempts to get back in contact.”]
“Was he attempting to apologize?”
No – he thought we could go back to ‘business-as-usual’ and solve it without mentioning it – a bit like the example you gave. And for me, it was one that had to be discussed and worked out.
“Were you able to rebuild the friendship back to where it had been before the argument once the 3rd party intervened?”
Not totally, but these days since he has admitted wrongdoing, we’re not too far off.
[[“Or are people less likely to want to work on things if the person is not an SO?”]]
[“Yes.”]
“Then what’s the point of having close friends? I mean that in all seriousness. Because at some point, you’re going to disagree about something. Or one of you is going to let the other down. If friendship isn’t a relationship people are willing to work on, what’s the point?”
I wasn’t totally clear. Your question said *less likely*. I do think SOs are the *most* likely to try and work at things, because of what’s at stake. But that doesn’t mean I think that friends won’t try at all. I’ve given two recent examples of where I’ve patched up rifts in my friendships. What they have in common is that both were close friends for a good spell of time before the disagreements, and both offered me something I liked as friends. These meant I was eventually able to overlook the disagreements. Though as I said, with one of them, it took a year and a third party – and him not giving up in that time.
“And have things improved in those areas once you articulated what you needed?”
Maybe 30-40% of the improvement I’d ideally have liked. But then if I go looking for more, I’m into that realm of trying to change a person (wrongly). I have to think ‘why should I have everything my way?’ Maybe I also need to move 30-40% towards what SO wants in that area and then we’re in that better middle ground.’
“So you never had sex? I have to be honest, that would have killed it for me. I mean, if it was never going to be on the table.”
No. And I have to be honest, it was a deal breaker in the end. Context – I was young at the time and to stay with her I would have needed almost total certainty that I wanted to marry her. I didn’t have that.
“But I’m aiming for something serious and I’m not just looking to kill time and hang out.”
There’s levels of it. There’s the first level where you want to be exclusive / be boyfriend and girlfriend which we’ve both said we’d want quite quickly, and its decent relationship etiquette to establish it. There’s the top level where you want to marry them and have kids together. And everything in-between.
Those levels (for me) take a bit of time to emerge one by one. Eg. Can I still see that person in my life in a year’s time? In ten years’ time? For the rest of my days?? I’d know answers to those things at different points.
“Partner would be … you’re in it the rest of your days. Maybe you live together. Share expenses, etc.”
When I refer to SO as my partner (which I prefer to ‘girlfriend’ because of my age and the length of our relationship) … I have to pretty soon get a ‘she’ into the conversation to avoid misunderstanding. I remember one incident in a bar. We walked in, SO went to the bathroom, and I told the woman who was seating people that I’d like a seat for me and my partner. She responded by showing me to a seat and saying “I’ll show him over here in a minute”.
“from my perspective, a man can have too much emotional pie in the overall chart.”
You’d probably like him as a friend?
“I’m not even big on pretty. That implies visually pleasing but almost someone you could overlook or dismiss. Like nice wallpaper”
Yes, I’d agree.
“A couple of days ago, I looked at the photos of himself he texted me –yes, clothed — a million years ago. I shouldn’t have done that. I’ve been good. I haven’t done that in months.”
Sometimes I do things like that. And then I can’t fathom why I’ve done it, when I’ve been disciplined about not doing it for so long. Like – what changed in that moment to break my resolve?
“How would someone make it obvious? Outside of revealing a lot of short-term relationships and/or not being in a relationship for a while.”
I over-stretched what attachment theory is meant to apply to. I think it’s only really applied (in the literature) to close relationships (not friendships). So this point is moot really. But to try and explain what I meant …
… I don’t know if you’re anything like me in this aspect, but put me in a party with loads of strangers or friends-of-friends, and I’m awkward. It’s not my preferred setting or dynamics. Put LO in that situation and she’ll be working the room instantly, seeking new people to talk to. She has an ease about making new connections. This is where she doesn’t seem like an avoidant person, and why I couldn’t see it initially. But like I say, I don’t think I can really apply attachment theory to casual acquaintances like that – I think it only applies when things get much deeper.
“That’s what I did with my male friends. I wasn’t actively, consciously, leading them on. But getting some male energy/male attention (and yes, a friendship with a man is different than with a woman) and being fine with the boundaries that were in place.”
I think that this is most likely how it has been from LO’s side. The rest happened in my head. I wouldn’t have been able to believe it at the time.
“True, but it’s a little different in that my male friend is single. So there’s no gray zone of someone disclosing and being married. Or someone disclosing to a married person.”
Yes, without the barrier it is very different.
“I mean … with my male friend … there was no reason to hide it.”
So why do you think he did? Or do you think it’s possible that he’s a bit like me, and needs to cultivate a friendship with the person before the other feelings come?
[“He’d remember details of what you said, or what you were up to, that you wouldn’t expect him to, and always follow up on those.”]
“I don’t think I’ve ever had someone do that.”
If you did have someone do it, what would you think about it? It’s in this way (I have been doing these behaviours with LO for YEARS) that I think there is just no way she hasn’t detected that I’m attracted.
“The other one … I don’t think there was all that much going on on his side, but I don’t really know.”
You mean LO-lite? If so, how can that be true based on what he said to you in the ratchet emails?
“That would be rare, yes.”
I think there is still lim-brain influence in how I described it. What I said is real on some level, but lim-brain is amplifying it.
“Who is this “we”? I don’t befriend people I’m attracted to. You do.”
I was using ‘we’ to mean ‘the male of the species’ 🙂
LaR,
“I meant … challenging or confronting a friend’s behaviour comes with the risk that their reaction won’t be good, like in both our examples. If a parent was dying, I might not have the head space to confront it. I’d ideally want to, but might not have capacity.”
Ok. Well, any major life trauma. They knew you were going through something difficult … and … crickets.
“I agree – with some people. And whether they’re a sibling or not doesn’t make a huge difference to the principle.”
Yes, with some people you know that there’s no point in bringing stuff up.
“What isn’t discussed will always fester.”
Yes. So wouldn’t you need to bring it up if a friend was MIA during a life crisis?
“And for me, it was one that had to be discussed and worked out.”
I don’t think you need to bring up every damn thing with someone, but there are some things that have to be discussed.
” These meant I was eventually able to overlook the disagreements. Though as I said, with one of them, it took a year and a third party – and him not giving up in that time.”
Other than patching up disagreements (not a small feat), have you ever had a friendship in which you had a conversation where you told the friend what you needed, like the one you had with your SO?
“Maybe 30-40% of the improvement I’d ideally have liked.”
Is that enough? (I’m not saying it is or isn’t. And I guess it depends on what it is.)
“Context – I was young at the time and to stay with her I would have needed almost total certainty that I wanted to marry her. I didn’t have that.”
For me, this would be a compatibility issue. I just don’t take sex that seriously. Which isn’t to say I want it to mean nothing (not at all) but I don’t want it to mean everything.
“Can I still see that person in my life in a year’s time? In ten years’ time? For the rest of my days?? I’d know answers to those things at different points.”
But if you agree to being exclusive/monogamous … the first level … are you doing that because you’re open to/hoping it gets serious if things progress? (That’s different than dating with no intention.)
” I remember one incident in a bar. We walked in, SO went to the bathroom, and I told the woman who was seating people that I’d like a seat for me and my partner. She responded by showing me to a seat and saying “I’ll show him over here in a minute”.”
I guess I’m at a place where I don’t care if people think I’m playing for my team.
[“from my perspective, a man can have too much emotional pie in the overall chart.”]
“You’d probably like him as a friend?”
Yes
“Like – what changed in that moment to break my resolve?”
I had a conversation about him with someone. The first time I gave the whole story to anyone since I told my therapist. I’d forgotten what it was like to sit in front of someone, in person, and not have to edit part of the story. I think you can guess what part of the story I usually edit. Later, on my own, I looked at the pictures.
“Put LO in that situation and she’ll be working the room instantly, seeking new people to talk to. She has an ease about making new connections. This is where she doesn’t seem like an avoidant person, and why I couldn’t see it initially. But like I say, I don’t think I can really apply attachment theory to casual acquaintances like that – I think it only applies when things get much deeper.”
Ah, ok. I’m like you in that I feel awkward in big groups, but if I know at least a handful of people, I can be quite chatty. With newly made acquaintances, too. And I’m actually fine with letting my guard down with friends. The avoidance comes in romantic settings.
[“I mean … with my male friend … there was no reason to hide it.”]
“So why do you think he did? Or do you think it’s possible that he’s a bit like me, and needs to cultivate a friendship with the person before the other feelings come?”
But … um … didn’t you say women were at least in the “maybe” or “yes” category right away? Don’t you know if you’re attracted or not pretty quickly?
I don’t know exactly how things happened for him. But this is how it comes across when a man hesitates to make his romantic/sexual interest known (and I’m speaking for myself, not women as a monolith :)) … like he knows, deep down, you aren’t interested but he’s hoping if he befriends you first and hangs around long enough, you may change your mind.
Speaking of which, I ran into one of mutual acquaintances last week. It was a decent-sized group who was talking (and I did not bring him up) but she was talking in general about how she is not interested in dating. She was one (there were a couple he mentioned) he implied might like him as more than a friend. I think he made that up to needle me.
“If you did have someone do it, what would you think about it? It’s in this way (I have been doing these behaviours with LO for YEARS) that I think there is just no way she hasn’t detected that I’m attracted.”
It would be something I’d notice, but not everyone values being listened to and heard. It would depend on what she values and what lands with her. It’s the same as assuming that, for example, giving a someone gifts may mean something to her, when really, it could very well mean more to the giver.
“You mean LO-lite? If so, how can that be true based on what he said to you in the ratchet emails?”
He said something more or less comparable to what I advised you to say to your LO. He didn’t ramble on about some big crush, for example.
“I was using ‘we’ to mean ‘the male of the species’ 🙂”
I’m glad you’re acknowledging that you are from a different species. 🙂
Is it that men are more sexually motivated? Is that the issue? Or that society allows men little avenue for emotional closeness unless it’s in a sexual/romantic relationship?
Marcia,
[“What isn’t discussed will always fester.”]
“Yes. So wouldn’t you need to bring it up if a friend was MIA during a life crisis?”
Your example scenarios introduced some nuances. But my preference is – bring it up once and be clear. Give them a chance – but not loads of chances.
Here’s a different question. How would you feel and act if you were on the receiving end of a challenge from a friend? If they said they somehow wanted you to behave differently.
“Other than patching up disagreements, have you ever had a friendship in which you had a conversation where you told the friend what you needed?”
I had to rack my brains. There’s not a long catalogue of successes.
At one point I was having personal difficulties and my life trajectory had drifted a long way from the route my friends expected. I told several of them that if they wanted to hang out with me at that point, I just wanted to do stuff like watch movies or do sports and NOT TALK ABOUT MY ISSUES. I picked the people carefully who I said it to. Ones I thought would deal with it and act appropriately. And they did.
Another example – I had out with a friend that I did a lot of listening to him, and I needed a bit more back. He hasn’t really got that in him – he’s not a great listener or emotional guy. I got lots else out of him as a friend, but more in good times than bad. He did try to do what I’d asked – within his limitations, he did his best.
[“Maybe 30-40% of the improvement I’d ideally have liked.”]
“Is that enough?”
I’d ideally have liked more. But this is where we’re in the realms of two people having to find a way together. I could never expect to have it all my own way. That wouldn’t be fair. SO brought feelings and views on what she wanted too.
If anyone says that maintaining a LTR is easy, they’re either lying or they’ve been looking for partners in better places than me. And I don’t mean this point as a sleight on my SO – I am thinking about my whole relationship history when I say it. And it could equally apply to close friendships.
“I just don’t take sex that seriously. Which isn’t to say I want it to mean nothing (not at all) but I don’t want it to mean everything.”
Fair. To try and build that particular relationship without any sex – or any on the horizon – didn’t work for me in the end. Others will differ.
“But if you agree to being exclusive/monogamous … the first level … are you doing that because you’re open to/hoping it gets serious if things progress? (That’s different than dating with no intention.)”
Yes. If I started dating someone monogamously, I’d do so with the hope, even intention, of moving through those levels over time. I just don’t know on day 1 that I want her to be my wife.
“I guess I’m at a place where I don’t care if people think I’m playing for my team.”
It happens to me quite a lot. I’m not that bothered, but there has never been an ounce of truth in it.
“I had a conversation about him with someone. The first time I gave the whole story to anyone since I told my therapist.”
What created the conditions that you could tell this person now, where you didn’t before? How was the reaction?
“Ah, ok. I’m like you in that I feel awkward in big groups, but if I know at least a handful of people, I can be quite chatty.”
I’m usually OK in that scenario too. It just takes time to let my barriers down with new people.
“The avoidance comes in romantic settings.”
With the commitment element more than with the initial bits?
“But … um … didn’t you say women were at least in the “maybe” or “yes” category right away? Don’t you know if you’re attracted or not pretty quickly?”
See it like this for me – the thought process would be, based on her looks and an early glimpse of her character: “I could / could not end up attracted to her if I find I like her character”. And yes, as discussed before, that could be quite a high % of women (maybe 30% or more) where it would be possible. The % that progress to the next level (crush, for want of a better word) is much, much lower.
“like he knows, deep down, you aren’t interested but he’s hoping if he befriends you first and hangs around long enough, you may change your mind.”
I agree with your assessment. Lots of men do that. I’ve done it. I get on an intellectual level that it’s nearly always futile, if what I want is a relationship. But I also might end up OK with a friendship with the person, and gain a new friend. Sometimes the initial attraction signal switches off.
“I think he made that up to needle me.”
Sounds possible. To make himself seem more … somehow … ‘eligible’.
“He said something more or less comparable to what I advised you to say to your LO.”
Then I don’t think it meant nothing. Even that takes courage to say.
“Is it that men are more sexually motivated? Is that the issue?”
Some men are 🙂
“Or that society allows men little avenue for emotional closeness unless it’s in a sexual/romantic relationship?””
There’s a few things I want to say here.
Bottom line maybe – if men are traditionally masculine and women traditionally feminine, more coupling happens and it is good for reproduction and survival of the human race.
But lots of men suffer for not being able to find spaces to explore emotions. When I was growing up it felt like it was frowned upon and it cost success with women if a man wasn’t a ‘man’s man’. The men who were really feminine copped a lot of stick for it. There are massive kickbacks (both ways round) in young men today against those 80s and 90s attitudes and I don’t think we have fully seen where that leads.
As an adult man, I’ve become much better at finding spaces to process emotions. But you know my biggest example of how that played out when I did it outside a sexual/romantic relationship. It led to the wish for one with the person.
Ok, go ahead, tell me one more time not to make friends with girls I’m attracted to 🙂
LaR,
“But my preference is – bring it up once and be clear. Give them a chance – but not loads of chances.”
I agree.
“Here’s a different question. How would you feel and act if you were on the receiving end of a challenge from a friend? If they said they somehow wanted you to behave differently.”
I have. I had a friend tell me something I was doing was hurting their feelings, and I stopped doing it. It wasn’t a huge ask on their part, but the first few times, I had to make a concerted effort to change my behavior because I was doing it by rote. But it eventually became second nature.
“At one point I was having personal difficulties and my life trajectory had drifted a long way from the route my friends expected. I told several of them that if they wanted to hang out with me at that point, I just wanted to do stuff like watch movies or do sports and NOT TALK ABOUT MY ISSUES. I picked the people carefully who I said it to. Ones I thought would deal with it and act appropriately. And they did.”
This is exactly the kind of thing I’m talking about. I think what you asked was reasonable. The flip side of that is asking to talk about it. I have found that is a harder ask for people to fulfill.
“I had out with a friend that I did a lot of listening to him, and I needed a bit more back. He hasn’t really got that in him – he’s not a great listener or emotional guy. I got lots else out of him as a friend, but more in good times than bad. He did try to do what I’d asked – within his limitations, he did his best.”
Ok. He made some effort.
“If anyone says that maintaining a LTR is easy, they’re either lying or they’ve been looking for partners in better places than me. ”
I think it really depends specifically on what you’re talking about and what it means to you. What you wrote you provided for your LO (or at least a semblance of it) is very important to me. I don’t think I could get with someone long-term who didn’t provide a decent amount of that.
“Fair. To try and build that particular relationship without any sex – or any on the horizon – didn’t work for me in the end. Others will differ.”
I also couldn’t relate to someone who would, ostensibly, be with one person in their lifetime. I’d want someone with a little bit of experience. I always did … even when younger.
“I just don’t know on day 1 that I want her to be my wife.”
Yeah, totally get that. Do I know I really like the guy and hope he likes me and pretty much want to focus on him and just date him from date 1? Yes. Does that mean I know for sure we’ll be together a month later? No.
“It happens to me quite a lot. I’m not that bothered, but there has never been an ounce of truth in it.”
To be fair, that hasn’t happened to me that much. So I don’t really know what that’s like. When things have been said, it’ s usually some guy who’s trying to needle me or stick it to me, whether it’s implied in a joking way (yes, my male friend did make little comments of that nature, he was trying to needle me) or it’s done to stick it to me with more malicious intention (a guy I hung out with briefly and who I broke things off with claimed there were rumors about me and a friend of mine). And the implication there is (I’m guessing) …if i don’t like them, I must be into women.
The third kind of situation … your side broaches the idea because they want to add another woman to the mix.
“What created the conditions that you could tell this person now, where you didn’t before?”
This person had told me something similar about themselves.
“How was the reaction?”
They were accepting of it. It feels really nice to be able to tell the full story. I didn’t know if I’d ever have anyone I could tell in person without having to leave out the piece that he wasn’t available. And I’ve been very, very vague with other people, only saying I hung out with someone a while ago and I was trying to get over it.
“I’m usually OK in that scenario too. It just takes time to let my barriers down with new people.”
I’m not letting barriers down in these scenarios. Going into a room of 100 people I don’t know … I can do it but I feel VERY awkward. If I know maybe 2 or 3 or 4, I’m ok. I can even circulate and mingle with people I don’t know and do it by myself, without the people I already know. I’m not the most outgoing person in the room by any means, but I can do the social, cocktail party kind of thing.
“With the commitment element more than with the initial bits?”
No. With letting them really know me.
“And yes, as discussed before, that could be quite a high % of women (maybe 30% or more) where it would be possible. ”
Actually, in a previous post, I asked you not to tell me your percentage, as I had it feeling it would unnerve me. You tell me that, and the first thing that comes to my mind is… OMG … any guy who’s told me he’s attracted to me, it means nothing. It’s a college with a very high acceptance rate.
“The % that progress to the next level (crush, for want of a better word) is much, much lower.”
So I’m not following you here. For me, I can see men when I’m out and about who are attractive. It’s more of an aesthetic appreciation. Is that 30% of men on the planet? NO. I’m not living in Hollywood or a college dorm.
Now, feeling chemistry or attraction (however you want to word it) is something totally different than aesthetic appreciation. That’s a physiological response … I get nervous around them, my stomach is doing flips. And that has nothing to do with who they are as a person. It’s by sight or very soon after seeing them/talking with them. And those feelings come in levels and degrees. With LO-lite, when I met him, maybe a level 7 or 8. My last big LO, probably a 9 or 10.
By my definition of attraction, would I classify all attractions as crushes? No. A crush implies to me a certain level of infatuation. Some attractions don’t rise to that level or flame out pretty quickly. Some do, and some even rise to the level of limerence, which is a crush x10. But the feeling of attraction/chemistry, at any level, is rare for me.
The emotional component of getting to know them is totally separate.
So that’s how it works for me. From what you’ve written, I’m thinking it’s different for you. But I’ll need you to explain more.
“I agree with your assessment. Lots of men do that. I’ve done it. I get on an intellectual level that it’s nearly always futile”
I’ll wait to hear how you experience attraction. For me, as I’ve written, I feel it or I don’t, and it’s pretty immediate. It may be different for other women, but befriending me if I’m not feeling it with the idea that I’ll change my mind later won’t work.
“Sometimes the initial attraction signal switches off.”
Yes. I could see that.
“Sounds possible. To make himself seem more … somehow … ‘eligible’.”
Or more in demand. I did wonder how much this woman knew. Had he told her about his disclosure to me? Idk. There was another mutual acquaintance I talked to days later who I could actually see becoming closer friends with. We did talk about guys but I don’t know her well enough to tell her what happened with him. Would that stay a private conversation? Idk. I’m not actively trying to spread gossip or embarrass him.
“Then I don’t think it meant nothing. Even that takes courage to say.”
Not if I fit into a category of 3 out of 10 women.
But, again, I did not do a deep dive with him into how he experiences attraction or interest or crushes.
A separate issue is … yes, that took guts for him to disclose. I was impressed.
“Bottom line maybe – if men are traditionally masculine and women traditionally feminine, more coupling happens and it is good for reproduction and survival of the human race.”
And on a separate issue … this is the reason why I’ve taken the (relatively) new stance of letting the guy come after me. If I do more of the work, I attract a man who has a bigger piece of the feminine pie (for lack of a better description).
“The men who were really feminine copped a lot of stick for it. There are massive kickbacks (both ways round) in young men today against those 80s and 90s attitudes and I don’t think we have fully seen where that leads.”
You know what’s interesting? If you read any of the letters, for example, written by Abraham Lincoln to his male friends when he was a young man, they were very affectionate. Sometime in the culture it became frowned upon for men to have close male friends.
“Ok, go ahead, tell me one more time not to make friends with girls I’m attracted to 🙂”
You know what I’m going to say. 🙂
But I think that, as a general rule, women are allowed to be affectionate and close with friends with zero expectation of sex. Men aren’t. So if there is emotional closeness, I think a lot of men assume sexual closeness will follow. That’s not a criticism so much as it is the best way I can think to express the idea.
But, yes, if you ALREADY know you’re attracted before the emotional closeness … you have to stay away. Because attraction and closeness are the full enchilada. You’re going to develop feelings if you have both.
Marcia,
“But it eventually became second nature.”
Good that you could take it on and respond to it. I’d find it quite tricky on the receiving end.
“The flip side of that is asking to talk about it. I have found that is a harder ask for people to fulfill.”
You have to pick your people. Some people just can’t do it. And if they’re one of those people, you have to decide if there’s enough else in the friendship to compensate.
“I think it really depends specifically on what you’re talking about and what it means to you. What you wrote you provided for your LO (or at least a semblance of it) is very important to me. I don’t think I could get with someone long-term who didn’t provide a decent amount of that.”
That didn’t happen overnight with LO. There was a very gradual build of mutual trust. A lot of it happened before the bit I’d classify as the LE. A decisive point was when I gave more of myself back and still felt accepted. Towards the beginning, I did a lot more listening than speaking. And in all but the first couple of years, it could build within the safe harbour we previously discussed – of me being in a relationship, so not a ‘threat’ in that way.
“I’d want someone with a little bit of experience. I always did … even when younger.”
I look at younger couples who are each other’s one and only (childhood sweetheart type thing) and wonder how they can know that’s all they’ll ever want.
“And the implication there is (I’m guessing) …if i don’t like them, I must be into women.”
That’s a very arrogant way for a man to look at it.
“The third kind of situation … your side broaches the idea because they want to add another woman to the mix.”
It’s beyond me how that could feel like a good thing to do. To each their own, but it’s never something I’ve thought about.
“They were accepting of it. It feels really nice to be able to tell the full story. I didn’t know if I’d ever have anyone I could tell in person without having to leave out the piece that he wasn’t available.”
Yes, I bet that was nice to be able to finally let it all out, unsanitised. I can imagine how good it would feel.
“If I know maybe 2 or 3 or 4, I’m ok. I can even circulate and mingle with people I don’t know and do it by myself, without the people I already know.”
Sounds like it’s because the friends are there like back-up / wingmen. I get that if so – I’d be similar.
“No. With letting them really know me.”
Ah ok. You can say more if you want, but I don’t want to push. I’m also willing to share more about things LO has told me about that aspect, if you want.
“Actually, in a previous post, I asked you not to tell me your percentage, as I had it feeling it would unnerve me.”
Apologies, I forgot that.
I’ll just try to explain it all. The 30% is more like what you described as aesthetic appreciation. Never a realistic chasing after 30% of the female population. Imagine the scenario where 10 women in my age bracket walk past me. Maybe with 3 of them, I like the way they look enough to not rule out that I could be attracted to them if I got to know them (I’m seriously going to test this next time I am somewhere where I can, to see if the 30% estimate is too high). If we flip that round, I’m ruling out 70%, as in it would never ever happen with them.
But as for the next part where it gets to butterflies in the belly etc, the proportion that happens with is miniscule. I have spent most of my life fixated on one woman at a time (please, just don’t say it!!). Call it a crush or some other word. I’ve just totted them up in my head. It’s about 25 in total – one per more than a year of my adult life. That’s the number of women who’ve got under my skin enough to make me feel I want to be with them. I’ve been limerent for 4 or 5 of them.
How do they get from A to B (from the 30% to being in that list of 25)? As I’ve explained, I changed some of my behaviours in recent years, leading to a more direct and clear approach to my SO for a date. But previously – and you won’t like this – it has been through becoming friends with them. I get to know their personality and then if I like it enough, everything (including their looks) gets amped up in my head.
[Aside – I’d love to know if any of the other men on this site recognise what I’m saying as a pattern for them – if you’re reading this and have anything to add, do please chip into this conversation].
I have to have that part of getting to know their personality before I’d fix on them and start pursuing them. But here is where I think you’ve had very different experiences of men. Some men would just miss out that inbetween stage and play the field among their ‘yes’ and ‘maybe’ brackets – perhaps date several women – and find out their personalities (and the compatibility) through dating. And other stuff (casual sex) may happen along the way. I’d rather assess it before dating them – and I’m not the only man who is like it. But this way butts up against your points about ‘faking’ friendships and the ‘bait and switch’ idea. I DO understand what you’ve told me about all that.
“For me, as I’ve written, I feel it or I don’t, and it’s pretty immediate. It may be different for other women but befriending me if I’m not feeling it with the idea that I’ll change my mind later won’t work.”
I don’t have that immediate clarity. I’ve mentioned this before but that’s only happened to me once. Point taken about befriending. I have examples where it has worked and examples where it hasn’t.
“I’m not actively trying to spread gossip or embarrass him.”
That’s fair of you. You’ve got to try and treat people how you’d like to be treated in those situations.
“Not if I fit into a category of 3 out of 10 women. But, again, I did not do a deep dive with him into how he experiences attraction or interest or crushes.”
So if he is anything like me, by the time disclosure comes on the radar, you are way WAY beyond the 30% stage. I hope I’ve now made that clearer.
“And on a separate issue … this is the reason why I’ve taken the (relatively) new stance of letting the guy come after me. If I do more of the work, I attract a man who has a bigger piece of the feminine pie (for lack of a better description).”
But do you think a man with more of the feminine slice of the pie could ever be suitable for you? I know a 100% feminine one wouldn’t be 🙂 I mean more like a 50-50 guy.
You are hinting above that you need them to have some emotional ‘give’ … the pie always has to add up to 100 …
“If you read any of the letters, for example, written by Abraham Lincoln to his male friends when he was a young man, they were very affectionate. Sometime in the culture it became frowned upon for men to have close male friends.”
That is interesting. I wonder when and why it changed.
“But I think that, as a general rule, women are allowed to be affectionate and close with friends with zero expectation of sex. Men aren’t. So if there is emotional closeness, I think a lot of men assume sexual closeness will follow. That’s not a criticism so much as it is the best way I can think to express the idea.”
From how you say it, it could be a matter of brain wiring plus a bit of cultural effect. It sounds reasonable if you’re saying that men can’t decouple emotional and sexual closeness in the way women can.
LaR,
“Good that you could take it on and respond to it.”
It was more of a behavior modification.
It gets trickier if you need someone to give you more emotionally or you need something different than than they are providing emotionally. I referenced gift giving in an earlier post. Maybe the person likes to give gifts and thinks giving gifts is being supportive and loving but the receiver would like to have more of what you gave your LO: to be seen and heard. That’s a hard thing to ask for. And some people provide the same thing to everyone, regardless of what individual people need or ask for. “I’m a gift-giver and I’m giving gifts.” (This is just an example. )
” I’d find it quite tricky on the receiving end.”
Well, if you’re going to ask people to give you different things than what they are providing, you have to be prepared for them to have similar requests. (I’m not saying I’m perfect at being on the receiving end. This was just an example I could think of, the behavior modification.)
“You have to pick your people. Some people just can’t do it. And if they’re one of those people, you have to decide if there’s enough else in the friendship to compensate.”
Is it that they can’t or that they won’t?
“That didn’t happen overnight with LO. There was a very gradual build of mutual trust. ”
I understand. But I guess I was saying that you have to “click” with the person for a build up of trust to happen at all. There’s a rapport, a feeling of: I really like this person.
“And in all but the first couple of years, it could build within the safe harbour we previously discussed – of me being in a relationship, so not a ‘threat’ in that way.”
On your end or her end? It sounds like, from your previous posts, things went into the unsafe harbor when you got closer.
“I look at younger couples who are each other’s one and only (childhood sweetheart type thing) and wonder how they can know that’s all they’ll ever want.”
I agree. And I don’t mean just sexually but in general.
[“And the implication there is (I’m guessing) …if i don’t like them, I must be into women.”]
“That’s a very arrogant way for a man to look at it.”
That’s a guess on my part, but it is ironic how men will start to hint around you may not be into men if you don’t like them. Men do it to other men, too. Undermine their sexuality to make themselves feel better if he gets a lot of female attention.
“It’s beyond me how that could feel like a good thing to do. To each their own, but it’s never something I’ve thought about.”
It’s sometimes brought up if you were willing to hook up with them casually. I’m guessing that the thought process is: Well, she did this. What else can I get her to do? And it’s broached shortly after you hook up (as in: you’re still in the room together) .. which is a … WEIRD … atmosphere to bring that up in. To be honest, it feels icky. It feels gross. (I don’t mean necessarily after the very first hook up.)
“Yes, I bet that was nice to be able to finally let it all out, unsanitised. I can imagine how good it would feel.”
It did feel good. It felt good not to have to edit the story or tone myself down. As in: this is me. This story is kind of messy.
“Sounds like it’s because the friends are there like back-up / wingmen. I get that if so – I’d be similar.”
Yes, it’s a safety blanket.
“Ah ok. You can say more if you want, but I don’t want to push. I’m also willing to share more about things LO has told me about that aspect, if you want.”
I don’t trust your side, not if I’m interested romantically. I know that’s my issue.
What is your LO’s issue?
“The 30% is more like what you described as aesthetic appreciation. Never a realistic chasing after 30% of the female population. Imagine the scenario where 10 women in my age bracket walk past me. ”
You have no idea how much I love you for writing “in my age bracket.” 🙂
“Maybe with 3 of them, I like the way they look enough to not rule out that I could be attracted to them if I got to know them (I’m seriously going to test this next time I am somewhere where I can, to see if the 30% estimate is too high). If we flip that round, I’m ruling out 70%, as in it would never ever happen with them.”
But how long does it take for you to walk past a good number of women your age? I was talking about men in general. As I’m out and about and walking past them. I’ll look at some and think: That’s a nice-looking man. Now, it’s not 30%. I don’t know the percentage, but … maybe 10% ? Now, the aesthetic category is different than the attraction category. I’m not pulling the men I’m attracted to from the aesthetic category. The men I’m attracted to may or may not have made it into the aesthetic category (although it’s not really something I’ve thought much about because I experience them on a whole different level right away or pretty quickly after meeting them, and they’re right away in the attraction category). The men in the aesthetic category stay in that category (usually). Aesthetic handsomeness isn’t what triggers my attraction. Because by that logic, I would only be really attracted to the best-looking men, and I’m not necessarily.
Now, I can lose attraction very quickly if I try to talk to them and there’s no rapport or I just don’t like them. I won’t say that the emotional component doesn’t factor into attraction at all. It just doesn’t cause it. And from what you’re writing, the piece that pushes you into the butterflies in the belly (do men really experience that?) is getting to know the person ?
“But as for the next part where it gets to butterflies in the belly etc, the proportion that happens with is miniscule.”
Me, too, which is why I’ve probably overvalued that proportion.
I have spent most of my life fixated on one woman at a time (please, just don’t say it!!).
I actually didn’t read that and think of your LO. 🙂 I’m assuming you felt that way when you met your SO ?
” But previously – and you won’t like this – it has been through becoming friends with them. I get to know their personality and then if I like it enough, everything (including their looks) gets amped up in my head.”
So getting to know them moves them from the 30% to the butterfly category ?
“I have to have that part of getting to know their personality before I’d fix on them and start pursuing them.”
I’m not talking about pursuit. I’m just talking about feelings/interest.
“But here is where I think you’ve had very different experiences of men. Some men would just miss out that in between stage and play the field among their ‘yes’ and ‘maybe’ brackets – perhaps date several women – and find out their personalities (and the compatibility) through dating. And other stuff (casual sex) may happen along the way. ”
Yes, I agree. Although I don’t think all men do it like this. I don’t have any way of knowing how many do it this way versus your way. But with the men above, no, they’re not crushing on every woman they ask out. There’s no way they would have that many crushes, particularly at the same time. I’ve never assumed that every man who’s asked me out was all-out jonesing for me. He could be, but then again maybe he asks out a lot of women.
“But this way butts up against your points about ‘faking’ friendships and the ‘bait and switch’ idea. I DO understand what you’ve told me about all that.”
But even then, it sounds like you were still befriending women you were interested in, to at least some degree (they were in the 30% category). They were not in the 70% category. Yes, the latter group is the group of women from whom you need to choose female friends. Totally platonic. Otherwise, it is a bait and switch. Because you did have some interest versus thinking you had no interest at all.
“Point taken about befriending. I have examples where it has worked and examples where it hasn’t.”
It may work with some women. I’m only one person.
“That’s fair of you. You’ve got to try and treat people how you’d like to be treated in those situations.”
I also don’t think it’s any of their business.
I am getting a little kick out of the fact I hung out with those acquaintances. Because I’m guessing that one or more may have mentioned it to him. I wonder if he thought I was not being social in general. Nope, just not with him!
“So if he is anything like me, by the time disclosure comes on the radar, you are way WAY beyond the 30% stage. I hope I’ve now made that clearer.”
Yes, you have made it clearer. I’m going to assume the interest had to be pretty high for him to risk disclosing, given that he’s partnered. But I don’t know that for sure. And there is a difference between sexual and romantic interest. Not for me; they overlap. But for some people.
“But do you think a man with more of the feminine slice of the pie could ever be suitable for you? I know a 100% feminine one wouldn’t be 🙂 I mean more like a 50-50 guy.”
Idk. Physical attraction (different than emotional attraction) is based on polarity. Not enough polarity … the attraction slackens. Maybe “masculine” and “feminine” aren’t the right descriptors. I can’t handle passive. I do not want to drive the bus. I don’t want to take on a more aggressive role. Which isn’t to say I’m not capable of being assertive/aggressive sometimes … I just don’t want to be the one doing it a majority of the time.
“You are hinting above that you need them to have some emotional ‘give’ … the pie always has to add up to 100 …”
I do, but often the guys who provide that are not the ones I’m attracted to. Now, admittedly, that may have more to do with me.
“That is interesting. I wonder when and why it changed.”
A lot of people read into the letters that he may have been gay. That’s how affectionate they are. It’s hard to look at them through a contemporary lens because the concepts of straight and gay didn’t exist back then.
“From how you say it, it could be a matter of brain wiring plus a bit of cultural effect. It sounds reasonable if you’re saying that men can’t decouple emotional and sexual closeness in the way women can.”
I think part of it is biological. High levels of testosterone, particularly before the age of 40. And, yes, part of it is that men can’t decouple the two kinds of closeness. But that makes me sad. Do the women men aren’t sexually interested in even make it on their radar screen as people?
Marcia,
“Maybe the person likes to give gifts and thinks giving gifts is being supportive and loving but the receiver would like to have more of what you gave your LO: to be seen and heard.”
If you don’t really want the gifts from a person, you can tell them. But, like you said, it gets more awkward asking them to give you something (emotional investment) that they aren’t giving. I think really listening to someone is pretty much something people have to volunteer to do.
[Some people just can’t do it]
“Is it that they can’t or that they won’t?”
Some people really can’t, others just won’t, or don’t want to. Whether I can live with it depends what they expect back. Two men can quite often have a friendship where neither expects deep stuff of the other, and that can work fine. I have one a couple of friends like that.
“But I guess I was saying that you have to “click” with the person for a build up of trust to happen at all. There’s a rapport, a feeling of: I really like this person.”
Definitely. I wouldn’t invest the required levels of effort without that. But the ‘like’ doesn’t have to be physical attraction.
“On your end or her end? It sounds like, from your previous posts, things went into the unsafe harbor when you got closer.”
On her end. And yes, to your point about my end. It used to be OK (not crush / limerence) when I did most of the listening. It was when I got that back from her that it all went south. She helped me, a lot, through some stressful life events. I felt seen and heard too. I let my guard down. The ‘feels’ followed very soon after.
“It did feel good. It felt good not to have to edit the story or tone myself down. As in: this is me. This story is kind of messy.”
How long did it take to get it all out and discuss it? Did you ask the friend’s view about whether you should contact LO-lite again?
“I don’t trust your side, not if I’m interested romantically. ”
With what – behaving monagamously? Or with being able to share your ‘stuff’ with them?
“What is your LO’s issue?”
Thinks people will abandon her if they really know her ‘stuff’. May avoid, to stop herself feeling vulnerable in that way. Now, I am not saying I know everything, but I do know a lot of her ‘stuff’ (stuff you’ll tell me I really shouldn’t know about anyone but my SO, but park that for purposes of this point). And there isn’t anything that’s come out over time that I’d see as reasons for abandoning her – not just me, I mean for people in general.
But here’s the thing – she often self-selects just the kind of flakey people who are “abandoners” by nature. And then they ‘prove’ her beliefs. It is like self-fulfilling prophecy. Isn’t this how attachment styles tend to work – people repeat their patterns?
As an aside to this point – all this is another reason why if I do need to back away from her for my own selfish reasons, it needs to be either very gentle natural drift, or (I believe) explained. I REALLY don’t want to be another name on the list of people who’ve disappointed her.
“You have no idea how much I love you for writing “in my age bracket.” ”
I’ve stayed pretty well out of the LwL age-bracket debates. I can have aesthetic appreciation for women much younger, but it has never gone any further. I would say ten years different is my absolute limit.
“But how long does it take for you to walk past a good number of women your age?”
Ones who are single? Probably ages!
“Now, it’s not 30%. I don’t know the percentage, but … maybe 10% ? ”
I need to test this to see if my 30% is too high.
“Because by that logic, I would only be really attracted to the best-looking men, and I’m not necessarily.”
It’s the same here. The ones I’m attracted to aren’t usually the ones who’d be picked by the most men out of a line up. That’s to do with personality.
“I won’t say that the emotional component doesn’t factor into attraction at all. It just doesn’t cause it.”
It is what would move them out of the aesthetic category and into the attraction category. Could I become attracted to someone outside the 30% if I really gelled with their personality? Maybe, but it’s not that likely. I can think of the odd example. We’re trying to be very scientific here – I don’t walk around with a clipboard 🙂
“the piece that pushes you into the butterflies in the belly (do men really experience that?) is getting to know the person ?”
Yes, we do experience it. I’ve learned to harness it almost totally with LO now, but when the attraction first kicked in I was really all over the place. Lost my appetite, loads of nervous energy – all the classic symptoms. Some days I couldn’t go near her as it would have leaked like a sieve.
“Me, too, which is why I’ve probably overvalued that proportion.”
Hmm – but I can see why you did.
[I have spent most of my life fixated on one woman at a time]
“I’m assuming you felt that way when you met your SO ?”
I did. In the days after our first date (which as I said left me uncertain whether she was interested), I was unexpectedly propositioned by someone else. It came as a big surprise as it doesn’t happen to me like that very often. I declined it, as my radar was only on SO.
“So getting to know them moves them from the 30% to the butterfly category ?”
Yes. But I’d want to think what actually happens with those who do move, that doesn’t happen with those who don’t move. It’s to do with gelling with them in a certain way. But I’m not sure the logical brain can explain it. Emotional brain / lizard brain takes over at that point.
“I’ve never assumed that every man who’s asked me out was all-out jonesing for me. He could be, but then again maybe he asks out a lot of women.”
Could it be worth trying to get to know that about men on an early date? I don’t mean with a full on exclusivity conversation ahead of time. But say it is someone you meet on a dating site – isn’t it a natural way a conversation could drift, into discussing how you’re both using the site?
I saw something interesting on TV the other day about some people who are developing a dating app where if you both select the other person, a 10 minute call is instantly scheduled. There is no messaging through the site. What do you think about that? The inventors think it will remove a lot of the bs from the process. I didn’t catch what happens after the call.
“But even then, it sounds like you were still befriending women you were interested in, to at least some degree (they were in the 30% category). They were not in the 70% category.”
I’ve befriended from both. It’s just that our most talked-about case comes from the 30%.
“It may work with some women. I’m only one person.”
I’ve had just one big example where it did. Or two if I count the one where barriers got in the way.
“I am getting a little kick out of the fact I hung out with those acquaintances … I wonder if he thought I was not being social in general. Nope, just not with him! ”
Yeah I can level with that 🙂 Though it may give him ballast for his “you’ve abandoned the friendship” line.
“I’m going to assume the interest had to be pretty high for him to risk disclosing, given that he’s partnered.”
That’s a fairly safe bet.
“Not for me; they overlap.”
That difference seems like the crux of the issue with him. But I’d say you can’t be certain he didn’t have romantic interest too – just that any admission of it was a bridge too far for him as a partnered person. You could drive yourself mad trying to figure it out, as I’m sure you already know only too well.
“I can’t handle passive. I do not want to drive the bus. I don’t want to take on a more aggressive role.”
So you want some emotional intelligence without passivity. I wouldn’t say it’s impossible, but rarer than getting either of the poles.
“I do, but often the guys who provide that are not the ones I’m attracted to.”
Fate could throw any of us a curveball any day … but more than likely, something has to be sacrificed … a trade-off made.
“It’s hard to look at them through a contemporary lens because the concepts of straight and gay didn’t exist back then.”
It’s incredible really. Because if we assume being gay is biological (not a social construct) – which I mainly do – then there must always have been gay people. I really don’t envy people in the past having to repress that so much.
“Do the women men aren’t sexually interested in even make it on their radar screen as people?”
That’s a great question. Like I said above, I have befriended women not in the 30% and kept those friends. Maybe it depends how much female interest men have, whether they have the room or need for more friends. But anyone is naturally going to gravitate to people they’re more attracted to and probably invest more effort with them – it’s just a fact of life.
LaR,
“If you don’t really want the gifts from a person, you can tell them. ”
You can, but sometimes that will upset them.
My point was … I was using an example from the love languages, which I’m assuming you’re familiar with. If you like giving gifts but the other person wants words of affirmation, what you are doing to show love won’t land. If you are close with someone (and I mean very close friends or family or an SO) … isn’t it both of your jobs’ to make SOME effort (within reason) to provide love/support in terms of how the other receives it, versus just the way you like to give it? Not that you can’t show appreciation for the gifts, but I think you get what I’m saying.
“I think really listening to someone is pretty much something people have to volunteer to do.”
I would agree with that on some level. But that you can find out pretty quickly. Sit back and have a conversation. Is it a give and take or do they refer it back to themselves or hog the conversation? Do they ask you anything? Do they remember something you’ve told them and later refer back to it?
“Some people really can’t, others just won’t, or don’t want to. ”
I’d say it’s more they don’t want to.
“Two men can quite often have a friendship where neither expects deep stuff of the other, and that can work fine. I have one a couple of friends like that.”
ITA. I’m really referring to very close friendships. There would be a small number of friends you’d ever make these kinds of requests of. Very small.
“I wouldn’t invest the required levels of effort without that. But the ‘like’ doesn’t have to be physical attraction.”
I wasn’t referring to physical attraction at all. Like as a person. You feel a simpatico. Have you ever met someone you can talk to for hours? Something like that.
“It was when I got that back from her that it all went south. She helped me, a lot, through some stressful life events. I felt seen and heard too. I let my guard down. The ‘feels’ followed very soon after.”
I’m sorry. I’m chuckling a little. Not at you but that the whole thing is kind of obvious … you gotta stay away from the 30% (you yourself said 70% was a BIG percentage 🙂 ) and you particularly gotta stay away from getting close to the 30%.
“How long did it take to get it all out and discuss it?”
Idk. 15 minutes ? Maybe longer. 30?
“Did you ask the friend’s view about whether you should contact LO-lite again?”
The opinion was that I should. And for about half a day, I was semi-giddy at the thought. But I don’t think I should. He has nothing to offer me, unless I’m happy with someone showing up an hour a week and being 15th on his priority list. There’s nothing for me there.
“Or with being able to share your ‘stuff’ with them?”
I’ll just say the interest from your side feels fleeting and shallow.
“Now, I am not saying I know everything, but I do know a lot of her ‘stuff’ (stuff you’ll tell me I really shouldn’t know about anyone but my SO”
I’m not entirely sure what you are referring to, but if it’s sexual stuff, I have known quite a bit about some close friends’ sexual past. Or current sex life. But they were platonic friends. That does make a difference if you’re referring to sexual topics.
I don’t necessarily think there’s any information only an SO should know, unless it directly involves the SO and the SO would rather that info is not shared.
“Isn’t this how attachment styles tend to work – people repeat their patterns?”
Yes. I was just watching this video on that. It is very common to attract people who will end up hurting you in similar ways
“As an aside to this point – all this is another reason why if I do need to back away from her for my own selfish reasons”
I was under the impression you’d already backed away. You told me you had. That you told her, verbatim, you needed to back away. I thought you were pretty much LC. Friendly enough at work but keeping your distance.
If so, you owe her no further explanation. Have you ever had a friend who told you that they needed to back away? Who gave you even that much of a heads up before they backed away? I haven’t. I can’t think of one. Friendships ebb and flow. It happens all the time. It sucks, but it happens.
“I REALLY don’t want to be another name on the list of people who’ve disappointed her.”
That’s your limerence talking.
“I’ve stayed pretty well out of the LwL age-bracket debates. ”
And you exist in another league in my mind because of that. I’m totally serious.
“I can have aesthetic appreciation for women much younger, but it has never gone any further. I would say ten years different is my absolute limit.”
That is exactly how I feel. I notice younger men, but … they’re in another dimension. They’re like baby men. And I’m also very aware I’m as old as their mother. Sometimes older! Not only do I have a hard time imagining they’d be interested, but I also don’t even want to go there. There’s nothing drawing me to them.
I pretty much agree with the 10 year-limit.
[“But how long does it take for you to walk past a good number of women your age?”]
“Ones who are single? Probably ages!”
No, in general. I’m not in high school or college, where everyone is around the same age. I guess you could find a social activity or club for people of certain age groups. But there’d be no way to know if they were single.
Just when you’re out and about, walking around.
” The ones I’m attracted to aren’t usually the ones who’d be picked by the most men out of a line up. That’s to do with personality.”
But aren’t your 30% based on appearance ? Or are you referring to the ones who make it to the butterfly stage?
“I don’t walk around with a clipboard 🙂”
Me, neither. 🙂
“Yes, we do experience it. I’ve learned to harness it almost totally with LO now, but when the attraction first kicked in I was really all over the place. Lost my appetite, loads of nervous energy – all the classic symptoms. ”
I have a really hard time thinking LO-lite was experiencing this.
Although this is what I experienced once he disclosed.
[“Me, too, which is why I’ve probably overvalued that proportion.”]
“Hmm – but I can see why you did.”
Because it’s just attraction. At least how I experience it. A chemical reaction. I don’t need to chase it to the ends of the earth. I don’t even know these guys or know them that well (when I’m initially attracted to them).
” I was unexpectedly propositioned by someone else. It came as a big surprise as it doesn’t happen to me like that very often. I declined it, as my radar was only on SO.”
So … in your example, after one date with your SO and unsure where things were standing/going with her … I don’t think you would have done anything wrong by having a casual encounter (provided that’s what this woman wanted, don’t lead someone on). Now, if your SO, for example, showed back up a week later and from that point on you were pretty much together, I probably would have kept that encounter to myself (no, if I were your SO, I wouldn’t want to know). But I don’t think you would have necessarily done anything wrong. That early in the process and still unsure what was going on and also before you two hooked up.
“Emotional brain / lizard brain takes over at that point.”
I think of the emotional brain as being a bit less base as the lizard brain. Lizard brain … lives in one’s butt. 🙂
“But say it is someone you meet on a dating site – isn’t it a natural way a conversation could drift, into discussing how you’re both using the site?”
Yes, but I’m not sure how you would find out the level of interest they had, other than doing what I did with that guy I went out with and just giving it some time. If it’s a low to moderate to sex-only interest, they won’t hang around that long.
“What do you think about that? The inventors think it will remove a lot of the bs from the process. ”
I definitely recommend having a phone call before meeting for the first time. I’d say a video call. You need to hear their voice and see their mannerisms, etc. I’d say you want to meet up within a week or so of matching. But there guys who were very pushy and wanted to meet up that day. That made me uncomfortable. There should be a happy medium between messaging forever and meeting up immediately.
“I’ve befriended from both. It’s just that our most talked-about case comes from the 30%.”
You’re dodging a little. You know exactly what I’m saying. 🙂
“I’ve had just one big example where it did. Or two if I count the one where barriers got in the way.”
Where you became friends first?
“Though it may give him ballast for his “you’ve abandoned the friendship” line.”
I don’t care. 🙂
” But I’d say you can’t be certain he didn’t have romantic interest too – just that any admission of it was a bridge too far for him as a partnered person. ”
There’s no way of knowing this. If he didn’t admit it because he didn’t feel it or because he was partnered.
“So you want some emotional intelligence without passivity. I wouldn’t say it’s impossible, but rarer than getting either of the poles.”
I’m not sure how to say it. Some men have a certain presence where you know you can relax. Because they’ll take care of things.
“then there must always have been gay people. I really don’t envy people in the past having to repress that so much.”
Me, neither. I think it was probably easier for women, who could live together well into middle or old age and people would just say they were spinsters. I think it would be harder for men. You wouldn’t have two, 50-year-old guys living together without eyebrows being raised. But by all accounts writers like Oscar Wilde had boyfriends. Maybe in more artistic circles it was more accepted ?
“But anyone is naturally going to gravitate to people they’re more attracted to and probably invest more effort with them – it’s just a fact of life.”
I don’t agree at all. If I’m looking for friends, I’m looking for friends. And if I’m looking for a date, I’m looking for a date. Two different camps, two different energies/motivations.
Marcia,
“If you are close with someone (and I mean very close friends or family or an SO) … isn’t it both of your jobs’ to make SOME effort (within reason) to provide love/support in terms of how the other receives it, versus just the way you like to give it?”
It is. And by the time someone becomes a close friend or SO, I’d know two things – what their preferred ways are, and that they’ve got some ability to deliver on mine. So expectations are already raised by that point.
Family members are a little different as we get no choice in who they are – we can’t ‘pre-screen’. It’s right to try, but with lower expectations that they could meet our needs or vice versa, compared to when the two people have picked each other.
“Sit back and have a conversation. Is it a give and take or do they refer it back to themselves or hog the conversation? Do they ask you anything? Do they remember something you’ve told them and later refer back to it?”
They are good acid tests. The level you get early on is pretty much what they’re capable of and what you’d get all along.
“You feel a simpatico. Have you ever met someone you can talk to for hours?”
Gotcha. I can usually decide that about a person fairly quickly.
“I’m sorry. I’m chuckling a little. Not at you but that the whole thing is kind of obvious”
It’s OK if you did. I need the moments of humor about it as well as the deep stuff.
“The opinion was that I should. And for about half a day, I was semi-giddy at the thought. But I don’t think I should. He has nothing to offer me, unless I’m happy with someone showing up an hour a week and being 15th on his priority list.”
But did the friend give that reason (ish), or some other one, to justify the opinion that you should contact him?
“But they were platonic friends. That does make a difference if you’re referring to sexual topics.”
I think you’ve nailed the point, right there 🙂
[“Isn’t this how attachment styles tend to work – people repeat their patterns?”]
“Yes. I was just watching this video on that. It is very common to attract people who will end up hurting you in similar ways”
I’ve tried before to understand psychologically why it happens and I think two things are going on. The person is kind of trying to ‘put right’ what’s gone on in their past – Groundhog Day style – so picks someone similar (this may all be subconscious). But on another level they have a narrative about themselves and by selecting the same type of person, they get it ‘confirmed’. Whereas if they picked another person, they might not ‘achieve’ either thing.
“I was under the impression you’d already backed away. You told me you had. That you told her, verbatim, you needed to back away. I thought you were pretty much LC. Friendly enough at work but keeping your distance.”
I did tell her that, more than a year ago. Full transparency – when I backed away, everything fell to about 10% of where it had been running. But several months later things felt safer and there was some pivoting back in. It stablised at more like a 40% level. I mean 40% of all the different bits – time spent together, emotional depths of conversation, texts etc.
[“I REALLY don’t want to be another name on the list of people who’ve disappointed her.”]
“That’s your limerence talking.”
I don’t deny that it adds to it. But – what would you say to the counter-argument? You know more of the detail now about how it’s played out between us. I’ve told you she’s an avoidant who thinks all people (definitely men) will abandon her. And I don’t want to be another one of those men. I know it’s never been a ‘relationship’, but she has still chosen to let me in as a friend. How would you feel if it was you in the situation and the friend then walked away? Or is your argument that I can use the natural ebb and flow of friendships to end it without the harm done that I’d imagine?
We talk about limerence a lot in this place (as we would) and I can admit that this has been a VERY strong LE. But I still have the part of my brain that sees this 12 year friendship as something real on its own – as overlapping with the limerence, but still as it’s own entity. Like a Venn diagram.
[“I’ve stayed pretty well out of the LwL age-bracket debates. ”]
“And you exist in another league in my mind because of that. I’m totally serious.”
Thanks. I’ll pay you later 🙂 I don’t think people can help where their attraction radar lands – the much younger woman has just never been on my personal radar.
“They’re like baby men. And I’m also very aware I’m as old as their mother.”
For me there is plenty still to admire in women my age. And I like to talk to people about shared cultural stuff – things that happened as we were growing up for example. Younger people have totally different cultural frames. And I also can’t imagine what a woman who could be my daughter would want with me anyway.
If I was looking, an issue would be that few women my age are available, but that’s a different matter.
“I pretty much agree with the 10 year-limit.”
I was gearing up for the question of whether I’d also look at 10 years older 🙂. My realistic answer to that would be more like 5 years, though not set in stone. But this hasn’t ever really been tested.
“Just when you’re out and about, walking around.”
I’ll report back. I have much to do in the way of social experiments 🙂
[”The ones I’m attracted to aren’t usually the ones who’d be picked by the most men out of a line up. That’s to do with personality.”]
“Or are you referring to the ones who make it to the butterfly stage?”
Yes, I was.
“I have a really hard time thinking LO-lite was experiencing this.”
Did he display symptoms of nerves?
I guess it’s different when you don’t know the person well. I was very conscious that LO had a long template of how she normally saw me behave. And then suddenly things were going off the charts.
“Because it’s just attraction. At least how I experience it. A chemical reaction.”
Yes. And as much as we can intellectualise how we’d like it to be, attraction is more of a wild animal and will ‘just happen’ … not always in the way we’d ideally want it to.
“But I don’t think you would have necessarily done anything wrong. That early in the process and still unsure what was going on and also before you two hooked up.”
I’d probably agree. It was an illustration of how my brain fixes on one person. There would have been nothing much in the other encounter for me at the time.
“I think of the emotional brain as being a bit less base as the lizard brain. Lizard brain … lives in one’s butt. ”
When strong attraction happens, that’s all in play 🙂
“Yes, but I’m not sure how you would find out the level of interest they had”
I was thinking more that you could use those conversations to gauge whether they are dating multiple people. Or thinking about doing it. Or is that just the expected norm on the apps?
On your broader question … I’d say that if they actively work to arrange a third date, or (being cautious) a fourth date with nothing sexual having happened or being indicated, their interest is likely to be more than just sexual. Especially if you think they could easily find someone else on the app for sex.
“But there guys who were very pushy and wanted to meet up that day. That made me uncomfortable.”
That should be a red flag.
[“I’ve befriended from both. It’s just that our most talked-about case comes from the 30%.”]
“You’re dodging a little. You know exactly what I’m saying. ”
I do. But ifl we’re on the wider point, I’m not – because I have befriended from the 70%.
If we’re on the narrower point (LO), then it’s OK, I’m well past trying to throw shade on what I did wrong. To you or to myself. I concede, say 10 Hail Mary’s and I won’t do it again 🙂
[“I’ve had just one big example where it did. Or two if I count the one where barriers got in the way.”]
“Where you became friends first?”
Example 1 – formed LTR with someone I’d been friends with for a year first.
Example 2 – my LO prior to the current one. Befriended her and then she confirmed mutual attraction. The timescales were much quicker – a couple of months. And yes … she’s another from the 30% that I shouldn’t have befriended 🙂 A feeling of unfinished business from that one might have been a factor in this one – they are similar personalities.
“I don’t care.”
😂
“There’s no way of knowing this. If he didn’t admit it because he didn’t feel it or because he was partnered.”
No, there isn’t. It’s one of those to try and get used to being OK with (eventually) without knowing.
“I’m not sure how to say it. Some men have a certain presence where you know you can relax. Because they’ll take care of things.”
No I get it. The question is how to get that but with some of the qualities you’ll want for it to sustain as a partnership, if that’s what you ultimately want. To discard everything you like is too much compromise.
“You wouldn’t have two, 50-year-old guys living together without eyebrows being raised.”
It’s interesting. My parents know examples of both in their generation. The two women are described as friends. The men … it is just kind of … tiptoed around.
“But by all accounts writers like Oscar Wilde had boyfriends. Maybe in more artistic circles it was more accepted ?”
In Wilde’s ‘Picture of Dorian Gray’, Dorian was releasing his homosexuality, but not calling it that (he was referred to as a ‘dandy’ or similar), and it was implied through the picture that he was punished for that lifestyle. Maybe the picture represents what Wilde himself felt about how society judged him?
I would think artistic circles were the first to accept it, but it was still “the love that didn’t dare speak it’s name” to the rest of society. I don’t think we had much progress until the 90s / 00s.
“If I’m looking for friends, I’m looking for friends. And if I’m looking for a date, I’m looking for a date. Two different camps, two different energies/motivations.”
But how about – you walk into a room where people are strangers to you, and need to sit down. At one table is a guy you find attractive, at the other a guy you don’t. Otherwise everything is equal (they both give off friendly vibes). Which table do you sit at?
LaR,
“It is. And by the time someone becomes a close friend or SO, I’d know two things – what their preferred ways are, and that they’ve got some ability to deliver on mine. So expectations are already raised by that point.”
But how do you know that? Do you have a conversation about it? Because this is something I’m just now thinking about. This topic. And I’m not young. As much as I feel people have often failed to deliver mine, of course it dawns on me that I just blundered forward in the past, giving them what I thought they’d want based on what I’d want from them.
“Family members are a little different as we get no choice in who they are – we can’t ‘pre-screen’. It’s right to try, but with lower expectations that they could meet our needs or vice versa, compared to when the two people have picked each other.”
Agree. My expectations for my family are at about ground zero. I’m not quite 100% there yet, because there are times they still disappoint me even though I know what to expect, but I’d say I’m about 6 inches off the ground.
“They are good acid tests. The level you get early on is pretty much what they’re capable of and what you’d get all along.”
Yes. And if they’re horrible listeners or incapable of having a give-and-take conversation, that won’t change. Now, sometimes that’s ok. I have friends I will hang out with from time to time because they are fun. Really fun. I have no expectations beyond that.
“It’s OK if you did. I need the moments of humor about it as well as the deep stuff.”
Hold the laughter because I’m about to slap you with what you said below. 🙂
“But did the friend give that reason (ish), or some other one, to justify the opinion that you should contact him?”
To understand what happened at the end. I guess to determine his feelings, although that would be a weird conversation to have right out of the blue after all this time.
I’m of the mindset that his no response was a response. As a friend of mine used to say, “Let sleeping dogs lie.”
[“But they were platonic friends. That does make a difference if you’re referring to sexual topics.”]
“I think you’ve nailed the point, right there 🙂”
I would not be comfortable with my SO having a lot of sexual information about a female “friend” he was jonesing for.
“I’ve tried before to understand psychologically why it happens and I think two things are going on. The person is kind of trying to ‘put right’ what’s gone on in their past – Groundhog Day style – so picks someone similar (this may all be subconscious). But on another level they have a narrative about themselves and by selecting the same type of person, they get it ‘confirmed’. Whereas if they picked another person, they might not ‘achieve’ either thing.”
I think both things are at play, yes. But here’s the catch: A different kind of person, who might not be subconsciously helping them to recreate their past and won’t underscore their narrative about themselves, won’t ding their bells.
“Full transparency – when I backed away, everything fell to about 10% of where it had been running. But several months later things felt safer and there was some pivoting back in. It stablised at more like a 40% level. I mean 40% of all the different bits – time spent together, emotional depths of conversation, texts etc.”
So … are there are other shoes that will drop? More information you haven’t disclosed? Is there more going on here than even this?
You’re not asking but I’m going to tell you, anyway … you need to get another job and go NC. You can’t have an SO and a sideage situation. How would you feel if your SO was keeping company with a man she was completely besotted with?
” I’ve told you she’s an avoidant who thinks all people (definitely men) will abandon her. And I don’t want to be another one of those men. I know it’s never been a ‘relationship’, but she has still chosen to let me in as a friend.”
Yes, exactly. You’re not dating her, and this reads like you think you are. Or are taking on the responsibility of it.
“Or is your argument that I can use the natural ebb and flow of friendships to end it without the harm done that I’d imagine?”
I copied this from a response on Quora to “My Best Friend Had a Baby and Is Now Ignoring Me.” It’s a response from a man. Forgive the length.
“Yes, it’s a normal and widely experienced phenomenon that people lose friends after having kids. After any major life milestone, people tend to lose sets of friends and make new friends. This includes having children, graduating school, changing careers, getting married, etc. The first thing to understand is that all friendships are temporary. Friends come and go. Friendships have varying levels of loyalty and friendship classes differ. Some people are buddies you share a drink with. Some are people you used to work together with at school or at work. Some are high school friends that you see maybe once a few years. Some are online-only friends. Some are very close friends by which you share points of congruence and that serve as the glue that ties you together. But all of these relationships are subject to change when one or both parties experience a qualitative change in their life circumstances.
Having children is a major qualitative change. You have less time. Each waking hour is devoted to either work or attending to your children. You do not have time for hobbies and your mindset changes- you’re no longer living for yourself, your life is for your child. I speak from experience. I lost most of my bachelor friends. I lost a good amount of married but childless friends. I’ve faded out friends who had children when I was single. What would you bond over? They can’t go out to eat or have a drink. They don’t have room to talk about mutual interests, because their lives revolve around this extremely needy lump of meat that won’t become more independent for a few years.
When I got engaged and then married to my now wife, I lost a lot of my bachelor friends. One friend in particular was a playboy and wanted to know I was “still one of the guys.” I valued his friendship, but I just didn’t respond to conversations which could harm my marriage. Namely, whenever he talked about casual sex or “scoring” with women, showing me pictures of women, I wouldn’t respond. I’d try to nudge the conversation over to a different path, one that wouldn’t keep me locked in the bachelor mindset. They felt abandoned; to them the immature college guy aura was fundamental to their friendships because that’s where they were, developmentally. Because I was now monogamous and committed, we lost that similar bachelor status and he felt like I moved on. Two months later, and my friend blocks me and another married friend in our circle from phone, Facebook, Instagram and WhatsApp, and that was the end of our decade-long friendship.
We all wish we can have friends for life, but that’s impossible. Friendships are a matter of voluntary agreement and convenience. If it doesn’t work for one party, it’s over. ”
“We talk about limerence a lot in this place (as we would) and I can admit that this has been a VERY strong LE. But I still have the part of my brain that sees this 12 year friendship as something real on its own – as overlapping with the limerence, but still as it’s own entity. Like a Venn diagram.”
You’re never going to get over the LE if you keep in contact with her. You’ve been trying to for what? 3 years?
” I don’t think people can help where their attraction radar lands – the much younger woman has just never been on my personal radar.”
But I also think it’s a maturity issue and a self-awareness issue. For every reason you listed below. I’d want someone I could relate to, generationally, life-experience wise. And why would someone so much younger want to date me? Maybe hookup because the offer was there, but seriously date?
And, tbh, the men I’m most attracted to are around my age, give or take a few years. It’s not like I’m talking myself into them because I think the younger one aren’t interested.
“If I was looking, an issue would be that few women my age are available, but that’s a different matter.”
I think you’d find quite a few on the sites, but, no, you probably just wouldn’t bump into them.
“I was gearing up for the question of whether I’d also look at 10 years older 🙂. My realistic answer to that would be more like 5 years, though not set in stone. But this hasn’t ever really been tested.”
Well, yeah. Ten years older and I’m looking at a retiree. Different life phase. I won’t rule it out, but as a general rule, I’m not necessarily attracted to guys 10 years older.
“I’ll report back. I have much to do in the way of social experiments”
Get on it. 🙂
[”The ones I’m attracted to aren’t usually the ones who’d be picked by the most men out of a line up. That’s to do with personality.”]
[“Or are you referring to the ones who make it to the butterfly stage?”]
“Yes, I was.”
But they still have to pass a basic level of physicality to make it into the 30%. Idk what causes me to be attracted to someone. Why certain men and not others?
“Did he display symptoms of nerves?”
No. I’m trying to think how I’m going to word this … There were moments he seemed … moved? …. overwhelmed? … for lack of a better word. And I don’t mean just the physical part of it.
“I guess it’s different when you don’t know the person well. I was very conscious that LO had a long template of how she normally saw me behave. And then suddenly things were going off the charts.”
I’m remembering one male friend who made sexual comments right when we started texting and I told him not to do that. So I guess I knew he had some interest … but he was single, actively dating other women, talking to me about it. He knew about my LO, he knew about this other guy I was seeing briefly. I guess I just assumed we were buddies.
“And as much as we can intellectualise how we’d like it to be, attraction is more of a wild animal and will ‘just happen’ … not always in the way we’d ideally want it to.”
Yes, and it’s only the catalyst. It is by no means enough to form a relationship.
“It was an illustration of how my brain fixes on one person. There would have been nothing much in the other encounter for me at the time.”
I’d probably be the same way. Now, if I was your SO, and we had gone out … idk … 3 times and/or hooked up (even before the exclusivity talk) … you hooking up with someone else in that time frame would have hurt my feelings. Even if technically you’re not doing anything wrong.
“I was thinking more that you could use those conversations to gauge whether they are dating multiple people. Or thinking about doing it. Or is that just the expected norm on the apps?”
I would assume a man was dating other women, even if we didn’t meet on a site, and I wouldn’t ask on the first date. I don’t feel it’s my business. Just like I wouldn’t press for a deep dive into his relationship history. Too early for that.
“I’d say that if they actively work to arrange a third date, or (being cautious) a fourth date with nothing sexual having happened or being indicated, their interest is likely to be more than just sexual. Especially if you think they could easily find someone else on the app for sex.”
I’d agree. I’d even say you’re doing pretty well if you make it on a third date. That dating coach I follow … he calls the third date the actual first date. The first two are “meet ‘n’ greets.”
“To you or to myself. I concede, say 10 Hail Mary’s and I won’t do it again 🙂”
I’d be right there with you, doing the Hail Marys. 🙂
“Example 2 – my LO prior to the current one. Befriended her and then she confirmed mutual attraction. The timescales were much quicker – a couple of months. And yes … she’s another from the 30% that I shouldn’t have befriended 🙂 ”
Tbh, she doesn’t count. You never went out with her. Limerents have a tendency (myself included) to assume that if the LO discloses, they’d be together if both were single. That they’d have it in the bag. There’s no way of knowing that. For all you know, she could have broken up with her partner and started dating someone else.
[“I don’t care.”]
“😂”
It’s what I was telling MJ. I did care. Months ago. I was disappointed in the way the friendship was starting to fray. And then I became annoyed by some of the things he was doing, so obviously I still cared because he was getting to me. But now … I’m indifferent. I’m not playing games. I’m not trying to get him to contact me by not reaching out myself. I’m just done.
“No I get it. The question is how to get that but with some of the qualities you’ll want for it to sustain as a partnership, if that’s what you ultimately want. To discard everything you like is too much compromise.”
What’s your type? In terms of levels of femininity? I’m going to guess fairly feminine looking with a tomboy/masculine/tough streak.
“It’s interesting. My parents know examples of both in their generation. The two women are described as friends. The men … it is just kind of … tiptoed around.”
Exactly. Was it pretty obvious the guys were together but nobody actually came out and said it?
“In Wilde’s ‘Picture of Dorian Gray’, Dorian was releasing his homosexuality, but not calling it that (he was referred to as a ‘dandy’ or similar), and it was implied through the picture that he was punished for that lifestyle. ”
Yes, but he also has relationships with women. I looked at his life as decadent in general. With men and women. He gets with people and tosses them aside. But it’s clear the man who painted the picture and the other one who takes him out on the adventures are gay.
“But how about – you walk into a room where people are strangers to you, and need to sit down. At one table is a guy you find attractive, at the other a guy you don’t. Otherwise everything is equal (they both give off friendly vibes). Which table do you sit at?”
Am I single? Is he? Am I looking for a date or a friend?
If I’m single and he is single and I’m looking for a date … well, it’s obvious. I sit at his table. If I’m single and looking for a date but he’s not single, he can go sit on Mars for all I care. He’s an NSV. Not Sexually Viable. 🙂
If I’m not single … I’m not looking for a date. I’m not out cruising.
If I’m looking for a friend (whether I’m single or not) … I don’t sit next to either one. I don’t want any more male friends. 🙂
LaR:
I meant that I sit next to the attractive guy … if I’m single and he’s single and I’m looking for a date. Otherwise, his attractiveness is irrelevant.
Marcia,
“But how do you know that? Do you have a conversation about it?”
To me that feels forced – unless it is a ‘reset’ conversation where you feel it will go south if you don’t have it. When evolving a new friendship, I work more on trial and error, instinct, cues etc.
“I’m not quite 100% there yet, because there are times they still disappoint me even though I know what to expect, but I’d say I’m about 6 inches off the ground.”
I’m sorry to hear it is like that for you. My family are hit and miss but I’m having to deal with a prolonged turbulent spell at the moment.
“To understand what happened at the end. I guess to determine his feelings, although that would be a weird conversation to have right out of the blue after all this time. I’m of the mindset that his no response was a response. As a friend of mine used to say, “Let sleeping dogs lie.”
I would want the closure of determining his feelings too. But ‘let sleeping dogs lie’ would probably win. It comes back to what I said before – you’d have to see that there was some possible good outcome to having the conversation. It may not ultimately be achieved (such conversations go off in wildly unpredictable directions) – but there would need to be a good outcome in theory at least. Sadly, I’ve even drawn this out as a flowchart for my case. Whichever branch it ended up on – Bad Outcome!
“But here’s the catch: A different kind of person, who might not be subconsciously helping them to recreate their past and won’t underscore their narrative about themselves, won’t ding their bells.”
Quite. And that’s where there has to be compromise and trade-offs involved. Like you’ve been discussing lately – perhaps someone who dings all the bells can’t be (long term) good. I’m not set in stone on this point or saying it’s definitely true in your case.
“So … are there are other shoes that will drop? More information you haven’t disclosed? Is there more going on here than even this?”
You mean in terms of what I’ve divulged here on LwL/to you? No, over time I have given the gist of the whole lot. Everything else is just non-needed padding/detail. I haven’t changed anything I said. Like when reporting my request for space – when it happened, how long it lasted, what happened after – my reporting of it here has been consistent. I haven’t told all the bits in chronological order – more dealt with them as they cropped up in discussions. But I haven’t ever falisified any of the details.
“You’re not asking but I’m going to tell you, anyway … you need to get another job and go NC. You can’t have an SO and a sideage situation.”
I know – or it needs one of us to get a new job, at any rate (the other way may happen too). While we’re both still there, I can’t make it any less intrusive than it is now, without disclosure. And disclosure is not my preference.
“You’re not dating her, and this reads like you think you are. Or are taking on the responsibility of it.”
Point taken.
[“Or is your argument that I can use the natural ebb and flow of friendships to end it without the harm done that I’d imagine?”]
Thanks for the copy-pasted response. Short answer – I could end it without doing the harm I imagine.
“You’re never going to get over the LE if you keep in contact with her. You’ve been trying to for what? 3 years?”
Short answer, you’re correct. Each of the 3 years has had a distinct pattern. The first – euphoric response, I went with it, mostly blocked out the consequences and problems and thought I could have my cake and eat it. The second (at this point I first wrote on LwL) – more clarity, increasingly thinking I should try and get over it and searching for how. The third – actually taking actions to try and get over it.
You can say the actions are not enough, and you’d be right, on the grounds I’m not over it. I have willed myself to get over it without success. It’s incredibly frustrating to try and fail to get over something for that long. How long did you remain in the limbo with your last big LO before you left your job and went NC?
“But I also think it’s a maturity issue and a self-awareness issue.”
I’d argue that the decision not to pursue them is down to maturity. But in terms of who a person feels attracted to – they can’t help that (For clarity, I regard feeling/thinking it and DOING anything with it, as very different things).
“It’s not like I’m talking myself into them because I think the younger one aren’t interested.”
Same here.
“But they still have to pass a basic level of physicality to make it into the 30%.”
Yes, but the 30% is quite broad and can be whittled down quite quickly once I’ve got to know them a bit (and they’d probably say the same about me!).
“Idk what causes me to be attracted to someone. Why certain men and not others?”
It’s as much of a mystery to me. I think they trigger something in us through a combination of factors – their looks, personality, circumstances, and/or they remind us of someone. They somehow seem to be giving what we’re looking for in that moment. But I can’t pin it down more than that. I wonder if anyone ever has.
“There were moments he seemed … moved? …. overwhelmed? … for lack of a better word.”
There would be A LOT of hormones at play in that situation.
“I guess I just assumed we were buddies.”
You gave him a clear signal when you said no more sexual comments. He got it and adjusted to being friends with you.
“Now, if I was your SO, and we had gone out … idk … 3 times and/or hooked up (even before the exclusivity talk) … you hooking up with someone else in that time frame would have hurt my feelings.”
At the point I was describing, we’d only been out once. But it was taking up all my brain space – nothing to gain from an encounter with someone else. If the roles were reversed, it would have hurt my feelings too if she’d hooked up with someone else.
“I’d agree. I’d even say you’re doing pretty well if you make it on a third date. That dating coach I follow … he calls the third date the actual first date.”
There you are then … if you do set out with the intentions of doing things a different way, then the third date is a good test to work towards.
“You never went out with her. Limerents have a tendency (myself included) to assume that if the LO discloses, they’d be together if both were single. That they’d have it in the bag.”
I have a crystal clear memory of it. After she disclosed and I said it was mutual, she told me she was hopeless at relationships – her words ‘I always end up parenting the man’. It was like she was saying to me in code “I like you, but don’t put what you have with your SO on the line for me” (She was open with the fact that her own relationship was close to breaking up, and it then did, soon after that conversation).
“But now … I’m indifferent … I’m just done.”
I didn’t follow all of your conversation with MJ about that guy. But it sounds like you gave things a chance before you got to feeling m’eh about it.
“What’s your type? In terms of levels of femininity? I’m going to guess fairly feminine looking with a tomboy/masculine/tough streak.”
That’s very accurate. I like the slightly sassy streak because it shows a person with backbone. I don’t want that streak to take over totally – it is nice to be able to break it down too and see what’s underneath. And yes, I like feminine looks.
“Was it pretty obvious the guys were together but nobody actually came out and said it?”
Oh absolutely. I worked the, out about as early as I understood the concept of being gay.
[“But how about – you walk into a room where people are strangers to you, and need to sit down. At one table is a guy you find attractive, at the other a guy you don’t”].
Thank you for the detailed answer. We were on different lines. I was thinking more about instinct. Like – if you haven’t got time to turn all those ‘what do I wantr?’ variables over in your head – you just know you have to sit down, have a split second to figure out where, and have only the choice of those two tables. I’d probably go to the one who is more attractive without really thinking about it – purely because I’m more ‘drawn to’ them. Now, I’m not saying it’s like that for you, but I think it is for most humans. And lessons learned in this place tell me to override my instinct and make the opposite decision if this scenario ever happens to me in the future.
LaR,
“To me that feels forced – unless it is a ‘reset’ conversation where you feel it will go south if you don’t have it. When evolving a new friendship, I work more on trial and error, instinct, cues etc.”
I’m not big on assuming. I have been so off sometimes with what other people are thinking and feeling. With friends, these are probably conversations I’d have when the need for them arose. I read this essay once from woman who wrote she asks friends who are going through something difficult, “How can I show up for you?” I don’t think anyone has ever asked me that, but I’d sit in their lap if they did. 🙂 Let’s say your parent has passed. Do you need someone to talk to? Do you need someone to be a quiet but supportive presence at the funeral? Do you need someone to help you get the food prepared for the after-funeral get together? I won’t know unless I ask or the person tells me. But, for example, if I assume and get the food together, maybe that falls flat because you really don’t need that help but need someone to talk to and you feel like I’m avoiding “being there” for you and am just busying myself with acts of service.
“I’m sorry to hear it is like that for you.”
I have one now where I’ve decided I only plan on responding if they reach out. I’m not initiating communication anymore. And I’m not answering any questions they ask about me because if I respond, they stop responding. Or they barely respond. Why did they ask if they don’t give a s**t? Or they start a conversation about …. lawnmowers and I’ll respond and they stop responding. Which irks me. I didn’t want to talk about lawnmowers, anyway!
” My family are hit and miss but I’m having to deal with a prolonged turbulent spell at the moment.”
What do you mean by a prolonged turbulent spell? Too much of that and I might remove myself. Maybe not completely but to an extent.
“It comes back to what I said before – you’d have to see that there was some possible good outcome to having the conversation. It may not ultimately be achieved (such conversations go off in wildly unpredictable directions) – but there would need to be a good outcome in theory at least.”
I’m not going to contact him.
1.) Based on how he responded to my last emails, I don’t think he’s good at having “deeper conversations,” for lack of a better description. He acted like a baby man.
2.) I think it would be a weird conversation to have after all this time and because of how little time the thing between us lasted. For example, if that young guy contacted me and needed “closure” … I’d think he was cringe. After texting for 2 weeks and one hookup? I do have a certain level of ego, and I’d be embarrassed.
3.) Most of the reason I’d be contacting him would not be for closure but to lure him back to the Tarantula Arms. 🙂
4.) I’m not sure he’d respond.
5.) I’m afraid of the answer. Because I’m fairly sure (though not 100% sure) that I already know it.
6.) He’s not available.
I’ve gotten some clarity in that last week or so. The thing with him still bothers me but I’m feeling a little better. A little.
” And that’s where there has to be compromise and trade-offs involved. Like you’ve been discussing lately – perhaps someone who dings all the bells can’t be (long term) good.”
But how would you feel, as a guy, being on the receiving end of that? A woman who is picking you because the men who she’s most attracted to are not good, long-term prospects so she’s taking it down in a notch in terms of attraction/interest level and looking for a better match, compatibility-wise? (I’m genuinely asking. It’s not a sarcastic question.)
“You mean in terms of what I’ve divulged here on LwL/to you?”
Yes, because it feels like what you posted about being now at 40% is quite a bit different than what you lead me to believe: That you pulled back, that you were friendly at work but otherwise LC.
“I know – or it needs one of us to get a new job, at any rate (the other way may happen too).”
Don’t wait on her. Start looking. If you’re in an industry where you can find any equally good job without having to move.
“Short answer – I could end it without doing the harm I imagine.”
I’m not saying that it won’t upset her if you fadee away. It very well may. Idk. I’ve had close friends do that and it hurt. And it took a while to process. But it’s life. That was the point of the Quora post. Friendships shift and change all the time. They never stay the same.
“The third – actually taking actions to try and get over it.”
How is that happening if you’re still contacting/spending time with her?
“How long did you remain in the limbo with your last big LO before you left your job and went NC?”
I’d embarrass myself if I told you. Longer than 3 years. There was an eventual attempt at LC. I told myself I could handle it. I wouldn’t see him all the time (different job, same company). But it still bothered me to see him. When I look back at it now, I wish I’d left the job and gone NC much sooner.
“But in terms of who a person feels attracted to – they can’t help that ”
I don’t agree. As you mature, the people you are attracted to you mature with you. It’s the same if you work on yourself … the people you’re attracted to are different.
“Yes, but the 30% is quite broad and can be whittled down quite quickly once I’ve got to know them a bit (and they’d probably say the same about me!).”
That’s where we differ. The selection I’m attracted to is not broad. It’s a very, very small percentage. I have some kind of physical type, though it’s not always what I’m attracted to.
“I think they trigger something in us through a combination of factors – their looks, personality, circumstances, and/or they remind us of someone. ”
But for me … I don’t know them. Part of the attraction is their voice, body language, energy, etc. (which is why just looking at a one-dimensional picture before first meeting doesn’t tell me I’m attracted, just that they are aesthetically appealing). But even after first meeting, I still have very limited information.
“There would be A LOT of hormones at play in that situation.”
Yes. He was also very chatty. I’m not necessarily implying anything by that.
“You gave him a clear signal when you said no more sexual comments. He got it and adjusted to being friends with you.”
You asked me if your LO knew you were into her. I was using him as an example that, yes, I did know (in terms of that friendship). But he did not adjust. At least I think he didn’t. We hung out a few times months after we first became friends and then he stopped talking to me. I couldn’t figure out why and then I remembered him saying he only went out with a woman so many times, and if sex didn’t happen, he didn’t go out with her anymore. I thought we were hanging out as friends.
“There you are then … if you do set out with the intentions of doing things a different way, then the third date is a good test to work towards.”
I still think it’s too soon to hook up. You have more info by date 3 but you still don’t have a ton.
“It was like she was saying to me in code “I like you, but don’t put what you have with your SO on the line for me” ”
She disclosed but you never ended up in a relationship, like the other woman you referenced who was a friend first. With the former, she expressed interest. That’s it. And while it’s not nothing, it’s not enough. I wouldn’t use her a barometer for successfully going from friends to lovers.
“I didn’t follow all of your conversation with MJ about that guy. ”
He was saying that LF was annoyed with him that he wasn’t chasing her or intentionally ignoring him. And I used my male friend as a possible explanation for her behavior. I’ve totally pulled back but not to prompt his response. I’ve now accepted where the friendship is.
“That’s very accurate. I like the slightly sassy streak because it shows a person with backbone. I don’t want that streak to take over totally – it is nice to be able to break it down too and see what’s underneath. And yes, I like feminine looks.”
When I’m good I’m good. When I’m bad, I’m better. (I had to quote Mae West there.) 🙂
“Thank you for the detailed answer. We were on different lines. I was thinking more about instinct.”
But I was thinking it’s the psychology of being in a relationship. Cruising is not really on one’s radar screen. Sure, you’ll notice an attractive person and if you happen to talk to them and they get a little flirty (the barista at the coffee shop you happen to go to one day) … that would be a nice moment.
But you’re not actively doing something to pursue them/interact with them.
“Now, I’m not saying it’s like that for you, but I think it is for most humans.”
I don’t think it is. Unless you’re on the prowl, at least to some extent.
LaR,
I was thinking … this is just anecdotally in my own life … most parntered/married dudes will chat and flirt with the woman if she’s right in front of them but if they have to make any effort, it’s not happening. Because they’re not on the prowl.
I mentioned changing jobs. At the first job, I developed a rapport with a lot of guys (most were married). Idk … 30 to 35 guys? It was a big place. I was there for a while. We talked and some of them got flirty. Some very flirty.
But when I took another job in the company and wasn’t seeing them/running into them, and seeing me would have required some effort (minimal, but some) … exactly four of them came to visit me.
Let me break those guys down: One was a genuine friend. What I mean is … no sexual comments or discussing feelings on his part.
One was my LO. Two were guys I’d had brief dalliances with. What I mean is … there was some kind of history with three of them.
Tbh, the whole thing was eye opening for me, and showed me how little flirtation actually means.
Marcia,
“she asks friends who are going through something difficult, “How can I show up for you?””
That’s nice because it comes from the person who’s not the one in great need at the time, and gives the recipient agency. It’s an open offer, not an assumption or a need to request. Too often people say nothing when they know the other person has difficulties, for fear of ‘saying the wrong thing’.
“And I’m not answering any questions they ask about me because if I respond, they stop responding. Or they barely respond.”
What do you think is behind that? Is it just a baked-in pattern that they are just not communicative (lawnmowers aside)?
“What do you mean by a prolonged turbulent spell? Too much of that and I might remove myself. Maybe not completely but to an extent.”
I’m going to be vague – but a matter that’s been going on several years, causes various tensions and anxiety for the members involved, and isn’t going to change anytime soon. It doesn’t directly relate to me. I have already done a lot of trial and error to get to a workable level between times/ways to remove myself and times/ways to be supportive.
“I’m not going to contact him”
All your reasons 1 to 6 feel like valid ones – a strong break down if I may say. Number 3 (Tarantula Arms) especially, as you’ve admitted it to yourself 🙂
“But how would you feel, as a guy, being on the receiving end of that? A woman who is picking you because the men who she’s most attracted to are not good, long-term prospects so she’s taking it down in a notch in terms of attraction/interest level and looking for a better match, compatibility-wise?”
I mean it’s not my dream come true, and I wouldn’t want her to tell me! But I suspect I have sometimes been picked by women for reasons a bit like that, and it didn’t feel like the end of the world. I’ve been around the block enough to know that I’d be seen more as a long term bet than like [insert name of whichever male celebrity women lust after]. This doesn’t mean I think I’m unattractive – I also value women seeing me as a compatible partner (the honeymoon period is only ever just that – the rest is compatibility based).
“it feels like what you posted about being now at 40% is quite a bit different than what you lead me to believe: That you pulled back, that you were friendly at work but otherwise LC.”
That is mostly what it is again now – a work-based friendship, more like (though inevitably not the same as) the bit before the intense two years of LE (Though I won’t lie and say we never talk about non work-related things). Our job roles cross over and need decent communication levels. After months at the 10% level, it became hard to work functionally. I let there be some ‘give’ when I felt days away from the environment becoming impossible for me. That was miserable and it has been on way more steady ground for some time now. What I also told you is that we never got back to trying to be ‘each other’s person’ after that. I stick by that.
[“The third – actually taking actions to try and get over it.”]
“How is that happening if you’re still contacting/spending time with her?”
I don’t have a choice over much of that while the job situation remains equal. 40% is still minus 60%, is one way to look at it. Not enough to end it, but enough to hold a calmer equilibrium while I figure out next moves. I’ll give you examples. At peak limerence, I arranged bits of my work life to ‘run into’ her as much as possible. I don’t anymore – I find ways to minimise that. At peak limerence we started a lot of work collabs that we didn’t ‘really’ need to start. No new ones of those since the period I described above – everything I have taken on lately has been by myself or with other groups. I’ve made efforts to fill my days with LO-independent things. I can see she has done similar.
“I’d embarrass myself if I told you.”
I’m not trying to force the question, honestly. But believe me, you wouldn’t 🙂 I’m living it, and I know all the contradictory thinking involved.
Where were your feelings about the job itself at the time? Mine is about an 8/10 for how happy I am there relative to other jobs I’ve done before or ones I could do instead. Not to be given up lightly.
“I don’t agree. As you mature, the people you are attracted to you mature with you.”
That regards ‘ageing’ and ‘maturing’ as two different things, right?
“I have some kind of physical type, though it’s not always what I’m attracted to.”
What do they usually have in common physically?
“But even after first meeting, I still have very limited information.”
Wouldn’t you have enough to establish glimmer, just not compatibility?
[“You gave him a clear signal when you said no more sexual comments. He got it and adjusted to being friends with you.”]
“We hung out a few times months after we first became friends and then he stopped talking to me.”
Sorry, disregard my last response to this point – I didn’t understand then that he let you down in the end.
As far as my LO goes here … All I can say is that if she does know that I’m interested but suppressing it (and she’s a bright, intuitive woman, so I can’t see how she can have failed to notice), she seems alright with it. I can read body language and cues well enough (at least on the friend level) and I get nothing, ever, from her that says ‘keep away from me’. She trusts in whatever we are and aren’t, at some level.
“I wouldn’t use her a barometer for successfully going from friends to lovers.”
I don’t – only as a barometer that investing into a friendship with her didn’t result in being friendzoned – that the *potential* was there to shift gear, even though we didn’t take it or see where it went or didn’t go.
“I used my male friend as a possible explanation for her behavior. I’ve totally pulled back but not to prompt his response. I’ve now accepted where the friendship is.”
A disclosure really shakes things up for all involved. If there ever is to be a friendship after disclosure, it takes a ton of commitment to it on both sides. And sometimes that’s not there for whatever reason.
“When I’m good I’m good. When I’m bad, I’m better.”
Yep, you got it 😉
“Most parntered/married dudes will chat and flirt with the woman if she’s right in front of them but if they have to make any effort, it’s not happening.”
I agree that flirting is usually situational and people don’t go out of their way to find people for it. Things like your coffee shop example can just be a nice innocent way to pass time – no intention and you probably won’t see the person again. Would you say that kind of situational flirting is mainly a guy thing, or do women also do it quite a lot / as much?
I used some clumsy language in a sentene above, so as a clarification:
“I let there be some ‘give’ when I felt days away from the environment becoming impossible”
*Meant*
It got to the point where (after months of 10% phase) my brain told me firmly that after another couple of days, I’d be incapable of going into work and co-existing enough to even get my job done (these are events from last year, not current ones).
LaR,
“That’s nice because it comes from the person who’s not the one in great need at the time, and gives the recipient agency. It’s an open offer, not an assumption or a need to request. Too often people say nothing when they know the other person has difficulties, for fear of ‘saying the wrong thing’.”
Or people say, “Let me know if you need anything.” Have you EVER responded to that with an actual request? Or have you ever said that to someone and they’ve actually taken you up on it? I’d say no to both situations in my life. On the flip side of that, I do think you sometimes need to tell people what you need. People can’t read your mind. And you have to be specific. Which is not your strong suit. 🙂 See below.
“What do you think is behind that? Is it just a baked-in pattern that they are just not communicative (lawnmowers aside)?”
Idk. I have asked myself many times: What is this person getting out of our superficial, sometimes aborted communication? And if they do text me something and I find maybe a sliver of the general topic interesting and I respond to that part of it, they will stop responding. Not always, but it seems often enough. Yet they will go on and on about the part of it I don’t find as interesting. Not that I have to be entertained and it’s all about me, but it is frustrating, as I wasn’t that interested in the topic to begin with.
“I’m going to be vague – but a matter that’s been going on several years, causes various tensions and anxiety for the members involved, and isn’t going to change anytime soon. It doesn’t directly relate to me. I have already done a lot of trial and error to get to a workable level between times/ways to remove myself and times/ways to be supportive.”
This reads like a corporate mission statement where, after you read it, you have no idea what the company does. 🙂 Do you work in PR or HR? You have to 🙂
“All your reasons 1 to 6 feel like valid ones – a strong break down if I may say. Number 3 (Tarantula Arms) especially, as you’ve admitted it to yourself 🙂”
I’m leaning toward (about 75%) that it didn’t mean all that much to him. And maybe the other 25% is hope and my ego and my emotions. Maybe when I get some more distance from it, I’ll be able to assess that more clearly. It’s strange to realize something could mean so much to one person and so little to another. And by strange, I mean soul crushing.
“I mean it’s not my dream come true, and I wouldn’t want her to tell me! ”
If you read the manosphere, (in the situation we’re talking about) their philosophy is that the woman got frustrated/used up by the bad boys and now she’s turning to the good guys. I don’t agree with that. I think she matured and is looking for something different.
The more I delve into this topic (as you can probably see, I’m obsessed with self-improvement) … getting really riled up by someone is about uncertainty. Your nervous system is all lit up. You start obsessing. That’s not genuine attraction because it’s based on not being able to fully have the person or figure them out. (I’m even talking about someone you could be dating, not necessarily a person who is unavailable.) And yet so many people interpret these feelings (myself included) as … this is it! This is who I want.
“I’ve been around the block enough to know that I’d be seen more as a long term bet than like [insert name of whichever male celebrity women lust after]. ”
Ah. I’m the opposite. I feel like I’ve been interpreted as Short-Term Sally.
But don’t you feel you’re falling into this with your LO? You’ve written you don’t think she’d be compatible long-term.
“I also value women seeing me as a compatible partner (the honeymoon period is only ever just that – the rest is compatibility based).”
Can it be both or is that not possible? I want to rev up the guy’s engine but I’d like to do more than that. Or if the chemistry part is level-10, does that mean the compatibility part has to take a big dip?
“That is mostly what it is again now – a work-based friendship, more like (though inevitably not the same as) the bit before the intense two years of LE (Though I won’t lie and say we never talk about non work-related things). Our job roles cross over and need decent communication levels. ”
You have to work in PR. 🙂 So I’ve asked … do you have a friendship outside of work? That has nothing to do with work? I don’t mean that you’re friendly in work emails or work interactions … but do you text outside of work about personal stuff (or have outside-of-work communication that starts off as work-related but then moves into personal stuff)? Do you spend one-on-one time together (even a work lunch can be personal)?
“At peak limerence, I arranged bits of my work life to ‘run into’ her as much as possible. ”
I laughed at this. I cannot even tell you how many times I did this with my LO.
“But believe me, you wouldn’t 🙂 I’m living it, and I know all the contradictory thinking involved.”
And the lies you tell yourself. No, I’m just going into the cafeteria to get my lunch. Of course I’m not doing it because he eats lunch now.
“Where were your feelings about the job itself at the time?”
Hated it. I’m embarrassed to admit a big reason I stayed was for him.
” Mine is about an 8/10 for how happy I am there relative to other jobs I’ve done before or ones I could do instead. Not to be given up lightly.”
Yes, I agree. But, on the other hand, you’ve been limerent for 3 years.
“That regards ‘ageing’ and ‘maturing’ as two different things, right?”
Most definitely. Here’s an example … when I was younger I used to look at a guy spacing out the communication as interesting. Oh, wow, he has game. He’s not a stage-5 clinger. Now, of course, I’ve come to understand that’s a huge red flag. It’s not sexy. Now it just annoys me.
“What do they usually have in common physically?”
Hair color, build, sometimes height. Though certainly not always.
“Wouldn’t you have enough to establish glimmer, just not compatibility?”
Yes, that’s exactly what it is. The glimmer. And it’s very rare. But there’s no way I’m feeling it for 30% of men. So is the 30% kind of a glimmer waiting room for you? 🙂 You may glimmer if you get to know them?
“Sorry, disregard my last response to this point – I didn’t understand then that he let you down in the end.”
I was let down and confused because he would barely talk to me all of a sudden. It’s my best guess as to why. I’m not sure. We eventually would chat at work on a superficial level (I prefer to at least be friendly rather than ice someone out, even if I don’t really like them anymore or want anymore from them, ignoring each other makes me uncomfortable) but our personal relationship was over.
“I can read body language and cues well enough (at least on the friend level) and I get nothing, ever, from her that says ‘keep away from me’. She trusts in whatever we are and aren’t, at some level.”
I’m trying to think about my male friendships. I guess I knew or had some idea. With the one friend who blew up at me … prior to the blow up, I had a female friend tell me he wasn’t looking for just friendship. I guess it wasn’t something I focused on because more than friendship wasn’t on my agenda.
“I don’t – only as a barometer that investing into a friendship with her didn’t result in being friendzoned – that the *potential* was there to shift gear, even though we didn’t take it or see where it went or didn’t go.”
Gotcha. I agree. There was definitely potential.
“If there ever is to be a friendship after disclosure, it takes a ton of commitment to it on both sides. And sometimes that’s not there for whatever reason.”
Well, it went beyond that as I got to know him better after the disclosure. I think he was hiding some parts of himself (those that had to do with other women) before disclosure, which really leads me to believe he was never thinking of our relationship as friendship. But, anyway, the more I got to know him (in general, not just with other women), he started giving me the ick. I don’t like the way he handled things with me/the friendship, and that includes the disclosure.
“Things like your coffee shop example can just be a nice innocent way to pass time – no intention and you probably won’t see the person again. ”
Exactly. But you get into a grey zone when you aim that energy at one person over time and you start to go out looking for them.
“Would you say that kind of situational flirting is mainly a guy thing, or do women also do it quite a lot / as much?”
Idk. I don’t flirt with women. 🙂
It’s hard for me to answer that. The work environment has changed so much over the last few years. It’s so dry and stripped of everything. I get that that’s a good thing on most levels, but on a small level, we’ve lost something.
“It got to the point where (after months of 10% phase) my brain told me firmly that after another couple of days, I’d be incapable of going into work and co-existing enough to even get my job done (these are events from last year, not current ones).”
Because you were so distracted by her?
Asking for more good thoughts/prayers/whatever as I await the results of a cancer biopsy.
Thanks in advance. I am having a small panic attack.
I’m still praying for you! 🙂
You and a friend as well. Both of you are going through difficult times. 🙁
To Serial:
Well, your prayers worked! I just found out it’s benign!!!
I am doing the happy dance. Thanks to everyone who has been so nice to me.
Yay! 🙂
Great news Norma! Very happy for you❤️
Phew. That’s the best news I’ve had all week!
Enjoy the weekend, Norma.
Bx
Awesome news, Norma!
So happy for you!
My Dear Norma
Such good news to hear. I have been worrying and praying for you. I know I haven’t been around much but I’m glad to hear the good news. Now I know we can still have that dance together dear. You take care and enjoy the good news. Have you a Bundt cake in celebration. I’ll have a drink on your behalf. 🙂
I am still reeling from the unexpected good news that I DON’T have cancer.
I got the news online when I did not realize it was coming. Thank goodness for My Chart.
I texted everyone I know, practically. But I texted LO first. Everyone was pleased and congratulatory, but LO, being a reserved and avoidant person, kept his comments minimal and subdued. Meanwhile, I am screaming with ecstasy.
And I realized that I still really want his approval. I noticed that when cancer was a possibility, he was a bit more attentive, and I enjoyed that.
I have a lot more work to do. LO doesn’t even like me when I am screaming with ecstasy. He says I’m “sensationalistic.” I think it’s a fun part of my personality.
Great news Norma! What a relief, and an emotional rollercoaster.
Today, don’t worry about limerence and backsliding. If you have work to do, it can wait a couple of days for the big emotions to settle a bit.
Yay!
Fantastic news Norma D !
I say go ahead and scream, and sing, dance and go a bit crazy with joy ! Anyone who doesn’t get that for you can simply push off.
x
To Imho:
Thank you for saying that. LO is a bit of a wet blanket, I’m afraid.
Miss Snow
I’ve been thinking for the last few weeks and I think I might have finally got a grasp on stoicism.
When my supervisor came to send me home he was quite emotional and agitated. Like he wanted a reaction from me. Like he wanted me to be mad at him. I simply turned in my keys and other company property and walked out of the office with barely a word.
The time I have spent in silence while I work on me and getting on with my life, putting that past behind me has been quite satisfying. One of the stoics (I don’t remember who) “It’s not what happens to you, it’s how you react to it that matters.” I think I’m finally getting that. It doesn’t matter what people think of you when you know who you truly are.
I’ve stayed quiet while I patiently job search. I’ve more confidence in my abilities and skills to move outside my previous comfort zone. I won’t let people cross my boundaries and/or disrespect me. And if they do, I’ll move along again. I know my secular worth. I don’t need validation from others to know I’m doing/did my job to my fullest. I find worth in myself alone not in others point of view.
Sir 🎩 🥃 — 🫂
It’s so good to hear your great news in a grasp on Stoicism — acting, thinking, and feeling like a Stoic! 👏 👏
“When my supervisor came to send me home he was quite emotional and agitated. Like he wanted a reaction from me. Like he wanted me to be mad at him. I simply turned in my keys and other company property and walked out of the office with barely a word.”
I can’t think of any other (re)actions better than what you DID! I’m curious: in that moment of walking out, were you feeling calm or agitated INSIDE❓
“The time I have spent in silence while I work on me and getting on with my life, putting that past behind me has been quite satisfying.”
Of course, it IS and would always Be! Spending time in solitude daily, to put the past in the past (hold no self-pity, no regrets, no resentments), to live (think, feel, and act) now and here for wellbeing of oneself and the beloved, and contemplate (learn, prepare, and plan) for a long-term future, is one of key practices in Stoic. Recently, I’ve been reaping benefits of staying in solitude the most of my free time (besides contently working a little bit everyday): gain more physical energy & strength, mental focus & clarity, quiet but substantial joys.
“One of the stoics (I don’t remember who) “It’s not what happens to you, it’s how you react to it that matters.” I think I’m finally getting that. It doesn’t matter what people think of you when you know who you truly are.”
Exactly‼️ You have finally grasped, in both intellectual and visceral levels, this Stoic essence through your life “crisis”, which in my opinion, is indeed a Blessing in disguise! 🥸
“I’ve stayed quiet while I patiently job search. I’ve more confidence in my abilities and skills to move outside my previous comfort zone. “
Don’t you find it’s quite gratifying to enjoy a fruit of practicing Stoicism⁉️ 😊
“I won’t let people cross my boundaries and/or disrespect me. And if they do, I’ll move along again.”
By human nature, there will always be people who (un)knowingly cross our boundaries or/and misunderstand us (I’m cautious to use word “disrespect”, which involves various definitions), which is inevitable and OUTSIDE of our control. It’s futile or harmful (to ourselves) to react. As you say, we just “move along”, truly WITH Ease and Peace inside of us.
“I know my secular worth. I don’t need validation from others to know I’m doing/did my job to my fullest. I find worth in myself alone not in others point of view.”
Wow, Sir Adam, did you recently visit Marcus Aurelius, Epictetus or Seneca, in your dreams, beers, or wild waking hours (I’m pulling your leg) ❗️ 🎊
I want to share with your 4 shorts (each is less than 1 minute) of Stoic mantra —
1. https://youtube.com/shorts/qFzlWFcBP5s?si=uBx9SYSV5gg91kvV — 4 things you should avoid at all costs.
2. https://youtube.com/shorts/OmUXRfUIhdA?si=Be2OUuKSGUGNaFvd — 7 Ways to Stay Emotionally Unshakeable.
3. https://youtube.com/shorts/Cv0ssJnI4vw?si=GpLptEOqNYrIDWAT — 7 Simply Ways to Eliminate Stress
4. https://youtube.com/shorts/tVFRNQZ_1UY?si=egoTu9-6z2KohkTr — 7 Rules of High-Value People.
I’m always learning from our periodical post exchanges. Thank you, Sir 🎩 🥃 ❗️
Miss Snow
I am going to take a stab at addressing your points.
“I’m curious: in that moment of walking out, were you feeling calm or agitated INSIDE❓”
I actually was calm. In fact on the ride home I was actually surprised at my lack of a reaction. I have never professionally or personally liked my supervisor, So I found it quite satisfying that I had a lack of reaction rather than lashing out. Of course I was immediately concerned about finances and that I have people that are dependent on me but reason quickly took the wheel because I know we will be ok until I get to where I need to be secularly.
“(besides contently working a little bit everyday)”
I am finding this very helpful until I get back to work. I’ve renewed my joy in cooking. I’ve cooked dinner everyday this week and totally enjoyed it. I have been getting things done around the house that needed to be done a long time ago, It gives me purpose and feel useful. And my solitude time is very helpful to help me reflex on how I need to move forward.
“By human nature, there will always be people who (un)knowingly cross our boundaries or/and misunderstand us (I’m cautious to use word “disrespect”, which involves various definitions), which is inevitable and OUTSIDE of our control. It’s futile or harmful (to ourselves) to react. As you say, we just “move along”, truly WITH Ease and Peace inside of us.”
I get what you are saying my lady. I get that is going to happen. I am meaning the people that willfully and intentionally cross my boundaries. And it happened a lot in the 7 years I worked that job. I have a bad habit of giving people the benefit of the doubt by default. Including LO. If I can not respect my own boundaries than how can I (outside the extraordinary person that won’t) expect other people to?
“Wow, Sir Adam, did you recently visit Marcus Aurelius, Epictetus or Seneca, in your dreams, beers, or wild waking hours ”
I’d imagine the true stoics stay away from beer. But I wouldn’t mind having one with each one of them. Maybe we can bring Charles Bukowski around and really get the party started.
“I was a man who thrived on solitude; without it I was like another man without food or water. Each day without solitude weakened me. I took no pride in my solitude but I was dependent on it.”
Sir 🎩 🥃,
“I actually was calm. In fact on the ride home I was actually surprised at my lack of a reaction. I have never professionally or personally liked my supervisor, So I found it quite satisfying that I had a lack of reaction rather than lashing out. “
You’re on the “luckier” side of the sudden demise; imagine if you enjoyed your old job, respected/liked old supervisor, and LO was still around, but the financial restraints had to cut some positions! Could you walk out of that situation with the same calmness (even without future finance worries)?
“I’ve renewed my joy in cooking. I’ve cooked dinner everyday this week and totally enjoyed it. I have been getting things done around the house that needed to be done a long time ago, It gives me purpose and feel useful. “
Yes, any meaningful creative/productive activities, such as cooking, gardening, cleaning up/tiding up house, repairing/renovating hardware of a home… are substantially gratifying and rewarding. The sense of purposefulness, usefulness, achievement/completion are what can’t be brought with Gold! Cooking at least one fresh meal (never microwave) a day is like “singing in the showering” to me. 😊
“And my solitude time is very helpful to help me reflex on how I need to move forward.”
Anyone, Stoic or not, need to have solitude time, better in the nature or during silent workout, to reflect, clarify and feel. It’s the time to be mentally recharged!
[I’m cautious to use word “disrespect”, which involves various definitions), which is inevitable, OUTSIDE of our control.]
What I meant to say is that disrespect/respect is based on values; and people’s values differ, sometimes vastly, due to cultures and personalities. Would you care about disrespect or even respect from someone you disrespect (a criminal) or/and have little interest ( due to clashing personality)?
A true Stoic cares neither negative (Epictetus) nor positive (Marcus Aurelius) opinions from others, but stick to their own virtuous path (non-harming or unhealthy to oneself and others). Some Stoics are quite good in ignoring invalidating/disagreeable opinions, but jump over the Moon once heard validating /complimenting/ flattering ones, regardless WHO give them or for WHAT purposes. A true Stoic would still keep peace inside and Might say “I appreciate…” or “thank you” if praises are appropriate /accurate. IMP, most limerents are opposites of Stoics. 😃
“I get what you are saying my lady. I get that is going to happen. I am meaning the people that willfully and intentionally cross my boundaries. “
Human natures are compromised all sorts, both negative or positive; no one has all human natures. So there will be some people who are (or perceived) willfully and intentionally cross others’ boundaries for various reasons, ie. under stresses/mental pains, unhappy in their life, needy of professional or personal advantages, etc. it’s a part of life in any culture. As Stoic, we need to calmly acknowledge, expect, and prepare for hardship, in all arenas of human life.
“If I can not respect my own boundaries than how can I (outside the extraordinary person that won’t) expect other people to?”
Absolutely. In one of those Short clips, it says that SELF-RESPECT /Self-validation, to who one is and what one does, comes First, ahead of validation and love from others‼️
“I’d imagine the true stoics stay away from beer. But I wouldn’t mind having one with each one of them. Maybe we can bring Charles Bukowski around and really get the party started.”
I’m certain that true Stoics stay clean from any types of Addictions, while able to enjoy moderation of life’s delights: food, drinks, plays, friendships, loves (7 kinds), and relationship intimacies.
I’m sorry to say that I’m not Charles Bukowski’s fan, despite of his fame. I’ve watched the movie about his life and read a lot of his work at one time, but I couldn’t stomach his macho attitudes towards women, his drinking, his roughness. My personal experiences could barely related to his tough life. I appreciate men with a large portion of femininity, since I’m more of a Tomboy … I’m a Animus 🧍♂️ searching for Anima 🧍♀️ 🤭
“I was a man who thrived on solitude; without it I was like another man without food or water. Each day without solitude weakened me. I took no pride in my solitude but I was dependent on it.”
If you thrive on solitude, then why NOT taking pride in it? As those Stoic Shorts repeatedly point out: solitude is time for clarifying one’s vision, building one’s strength, preserving one’s peace and energy for life’s purposeful and fulfilling calls….
Good job Brother.
I think I am following your stoic lead. I had to work by LF all night, a few nights ago. It was pretty damn awkward and we avoided each other completely. However, she did manage to squeak out a hello upon having to walk by me once. It probably killed her to speak first.
There have been times in the last few months we’ve been able to have short and sweet conversations, but lately she’s back on the avoidant route. Pretending I don’t exist. I think thats mainly due to my not reacting to her or trying hard to reach out. And I think it bothers her somewhat, I’m friends with one of her friends. I’d like to think she misses my company and sometimes I’ve believed it. I’ve just been trying to respect the space she told me stay out of. So I won’t beg. Not now, not ever.
MJ,
“I think thats mainly due to my not reacting to her or trying hard to reach out. And I think it bothers her somewhat, I’m friends with one of her friends.”
Is it possible she’s ok with where your friendship is now? I mean, I don’t know. I wasn’t there, but I’ve been chatting to LaR about my male friend. And I’m ok with my male friend not reaching out much (or again, if that’s where things end up going). I’m not staying silent to prompt him to contact me. I’m not angry. If all I do from this point forward is possibly run into him in the company of mutual acquaintances, I’m ok with that. It took me a little while to get to his point. At first, I was disappointed that we weren’t as close. And then I was annoyed by some of the things he was doing. But not anymore.
Miss Snow
I’ve been both let go (against my own will) and walked away from jobs that I enjoyed or with people that I enjoyed working with. It’s not an easy thing, as a good job itself, a non-toxic work environment and good co-workers are a hard trinity to get in one single job.
If LO had still been there? Well ….. let’s just be glad she wasn’t. I am sure it was you that said that limerence and stoicism are the polar opposites of each other. And it is very apparent. As I have never let one person affect me to the point that I wasn’t myself. But her.
“willfully and intentionally cross others’ boundaries for various reasons, ie. under stresses/mental pains, unhappy in their life, needy of professional or personal advantages, etc.”
One short I watched (it may have been one you posted) that said that people’s negative criticism or negative behavior in general towards you says more about them than you. That it is just a reflection of their own personal insecurities deflected back at you. I think that is the case with my former supervisor. I think in some way he felt threatened by me, and why he held me to such a high standard while letting other employees (not LO ,,, dammit Adam you’re still defending her) get away with what he wouldn’t let me.
“I’m sorry to say that I’m not Charles Bukowski’s fan, despite of his fame.”
I think my appeal with his novels (and some of his poetry) is that he was so the opposite of me when I first discovered his writing. His flare and absolute disregard for what people might think of what he said and how he lived his life was incomprehensible to me. I think you’d see more of his “soft side” in a poem called “The Bluebird”. It’s a beautifully written poem about hiding what we don’t think society wants to see, or even or immediate circle of people.
As far as the quote of his I posted, it is very different in the west than the east when it comes to solitude. Often people that need solitude are often seen as aloof, indifferent, anti-social or rude. So his expression is quite accurate. Thankfully I have a wife that understands that about me, and outside of sometimes checking in on me, respects my need for solitude and doesn’t take it personal.
MJ
My brother, one thing Miss Snow’s stoicism has taught me about others, like LO for instance, is that people’s inability to commit, be it romantic or friendship, says more about them than you. Now in your case, unlike mine, you are free to feel the way you want about LO or LF and that’s fine. But maybe their indifference to you is not about you, but about that they don’t have the capacity to care for someone at the level you do. Which is blatantly apparent in how willingly dedicated to caring for your father you are. Some times we meet people that just aren’t capable of meeting us at the level we want to meet them at. And I think that was the case with LO. I don’t think she knew how to meet me at a point of just wanting to be her friend with no ulterior motive. Maybe she never had that before? I don’t know. But sometimes people run when they know that someone is “too much” for them. Hang in there brother. I am always here to listen or talk, whatever you need.
🎩 🥃,
“I’ve been both let go (against my own will) and walked away from jobs that I enjoyed or with people that I enjoyed working with. “
That’s quite Stoic, I solute you for holding your inner peace when it happened. 👏
“It’s not an easy thing, as a good job itself, a non-toxic work environment and good co-workers are a hard trinity to get in one single job.”
In the East, we take it as a default of life, no big deal. We’re told since little, that’s what life was waiting for All of us — no one could escape human life’s “defaults”, unless you live in a deep wood or a temple.
“If LO had still been there? Well ….. let’s just be glad she wasn’t. I am sure it was you that said that limerence and stoicism are the polar opposites of each other. “
If one is just 50% Stoic prior to a LE, even if the Glimmer strikes at the first glance, one still could possibly escape LE — my definition: in the altered state of mind for OVER 3~6 months (after a normal crush). The primary Stoicism is to let go what is out of one’s control — other people and the nature/world. But most of limerents are unable to let go of LO (of all kinds) or LE itself (w/o barriers) which IS inside one’s own head.
“And it is very apparent. As I have never let one person affect me to the point that I wasn’t myself. But her.”
It’s not LO, who is just a catalyst. It’s the addictive LE in your own mind. To remove LE, its root needs to be pulled out FIRST!
“One short I watched (it may have been one you posted) that said that people’s negative criticism or negative behavior in general towards you says more about them than you.”
Very true! I appreciate your usage of “negative criticism” which is different from positive/constructive criticism.
“That it is just a reflection of their own personal insecurities deflected back at you. “
There might be more possible causes (just my limited observation 👁️ )
1. protect/defend personal insecurities/vulnerabilities.
2. triggered by something, (un)known, inside them.
3. boost a false sense of “righteousness”.
4. lack of joys and peace in their own life.
5. take out their frustration/anger/discontentment.
6. imbalance of hormones or neural divergence.
7. short of patience or tolerance of others’ differences/shortcomings or stuff that are out of one’s control/expectations.
8. from some Eastern points of view: poor self-cultivation (Taoism) or insufficient social-sophistications (Confucianism).
“I think that is the case with my former supervisor. I think in some way he felt threatened by me, and why he held me to such a high standard while letting other employees (not LO ,,, dammit Adam you’re still defending her) get away with what he wouldn’t let me.”
It does sound like that with your supervisor (I was not there), and he might be jealous of your skills, senses of security, integrity, and perhaps carefree❓
“I think my appeal with his novels (and some of his poetry) is that he was so the opposite of me when I first discovered his writing. His flare and absolute disregard for what people might think of what he said and how he lived his life was incomprehensible to me.”
I felt the same way when I first watched the movie about him and read his work; when I was still quite confirming and felt trapped in the social norms. His work inspired me to imagine temporary, mental escapes.
However, a lot of his work was out of his drunkenness, which made such an “escape” an illusion. What would happen if he stayed away from bottles? Back then, I didn’t think his poetry liberated him, body, mind, and soul. I remember I felt sad for his “fated” life — looked quite out of control to me.
“I think you’d see more of his “soft side” in a poem called “The Bluebird”. It’s a beautifully written poem about hiding what we don’t think society wants to see, or even or immediate circle of people.”
I just read the poem in the subway on the way home and think everyone, men or women, has his/her “bluebird” inside — soft/fragile, shy/afraid, instinctual/intuitive, and imaginative/creative. Back then, the society was much less tolerant of men’s Anima/femininity, it’s pitiful that he had to hide his “bluebird” deep inside, so as to protect his Macho image. Today, men are much less afraid of showing their feminine sides.
“As far as the quote of his I posted, it is very different in the west than the east when it comes to solitude. Often people that need solitude are often seen as aloof, indifferent, anti-social or rude. “
Total “aloof, indifferent, and anti-social”, NOT rude, are a part Stoicism in the West and Taoism in the East; they are both unpopular. In China (different from Japan and Korea), 90~98% of people are annoyingly gregarious; few people (1~2%), who like/need solitude are perceived with self-reliance, superficial indifference (actual moderation with constraints), oddity, and perhaps a bit philosophical flare. Wise ones might adopt 50% Taoism and 50% Confucianism: uneducated/uncouth ones adopt 50~100% Communism (being totally brainwashed).
“So his expression is quite accurate. “
But IMP, his lifestyle was not a model of Stoic, actually somewhat reckless (in my eyes back then), regardless whether he liked solitude or not.
“Thankfully I have a wife that understands that about me, and outside of sometimes checking in on me, respects my need for solitude and doesn’t take it personal.”
You’re SO lucky to have Mamma in so many ways…. If I were you, I’d nonstop dig my inside: WHY I just cannot (or don’t want to) quit my excessive drinking and LE ❓
I might be inaccurate in some of my points here, without conducting any public survey but just estimated figures based on my own experience. The interesting subject for me to consider is HOW to wear Stoic “shield” while keep sufficient passion (not the addictive LE kind) alive, skillfully use passion, backed by reasons, to weave a lasting, joyful and “unbreakable” friendship or/and relationship ties, exiting or potential ones 🤔
“I’m ok with my male friend not reaching out much (or again, if that’s where things end up going). I’m not staying silent to prompt him to contact me. I’m not angry. At first, I was disappointed that we weren’t as close. And then I was annoyed by some of the things he was doing. But not anymore.”
Marcia
The question I would like to ask..
If this guy spilled some feelings to you and you were initially disappointed or say turned off by his action of disclosure, what would then cause you to be disappointed you then were not as close? Your body language or perhaps things you said probably caused him to have to rethink the situation, so he was probably reaching for straws, hoping not to inflame the situation more. Which was what probably annoyed you.
To me it seems like your reaction towards him comes across like a mixed signal. Even if you didn’t realize you were throwing one out. Because you kinda liked the guy, but deep down kinda didn’t..
MJ,
“If this guy spilled some feelings to you and you were initially disappointed or say turned off by his action of disclosure, what would then cause you to be disappointed you then were not as close?”
I wasn’t turned off by the disclosure, but I am not a fan (as I’ve made clear) of befriending someone and then, later, after a friendship developments, articulating sexual/romantic interest. It feels like a bait and switch, and it’s a very awkward conversation to have.
“Your body language or perhaps things you said probably caused him to have to rethink the situation, so he was probably reaching for straws, hoping not to inflame the situation more. Which was what probably annoyed you.”
Nope. During this disclosure, I told him we were friends. I was clear. I was disappointed because he changed the dynamic of the friendship by disclosing. Things changed after the disclosure. Either he couldn’t be close or he lost interest after the romantic part was a no-go. I was annoyed because he would do things like take days to return texts. “Oh, I’m sorry. I’ve been busy.” He didn’t do that before disclosure. I think he was playing games with me.
“To me it seems like your reaction towards him comes across like a mixed signal. ”
Nope. I was clear in the disclosure. And as I told you before … 🙂 … several times … mixed signals are NOT a green light. You follow them at your peril.
Mixed signals mean one or more of the following:
1.) They’re not that interested.
2.) There’s someone else. Either someone they’re already with or someone they’re hung up on.
3) They don’t know what they want. (That may be directly to do with you or because of something going on in their life.)
MJ,
Is this your kind of humor? I watch this guy who reviews movies on youtube. “Adam Does Movies.” In his review of “The Bride”:
“It’s 1930s Chicago, and 100-plus-year-old Frankenstein is looking for some tail.”
I thought that was really funny. 🙂
LE
Limerent song of the day.
It’s Only Make Believe — Conway Twitty
https://youtu.be/29SBdPEzIAM?si=ClyGiWW3rwcsHK1B
Now I’m off to cook dinner.
To Adam:
Great song choice. Thank you.
Adam,
I posted that one before in the Limerent Music blog. It’s a great song.
I think I used it as the lead for my proposed Time-Life presents “Music for Limerents,” a collection of songs about uncertainty, reciprocity, betrayal, regret, rumination, goodbyes, and all the other great experiences of limerence.
“For the Good Times” – Ray Price
https://youtu.be/AcutCgJC_3o?si=hNoiC7W58Jw7USAe
I like that version too. My first exposure to the song was Perry Como. But I like the Ray Price version too.
https://youtu.be/-8lWST4idkQ?si=Aiu9mI20L6BHkr4R
Miss Snow I am thinking on your post and will send you a reply soon. Thank you for your detailed response and I like the shorts you posted.
I just had a very surprising day. One of my daughters, whom I have not seen in eleven years, contacted me and asked me to go to lunch with her.
I wasn’t sure if I’d recognize her, but she looked almost exactly the same.
She came into town just for a short vacation, and I don’t want to over-think anything that happened. We had a pleasant time, and I am afraid to hope for anything beyond that.
It’s weird being estranged from her for so long, and then to have her come back, momentarily, as if nothing had ever happened.
Wow. I hope this is a turn for the better!
To Serial:
I hope so, too, but estranged children are unpredictable.
It can go either way.
I just want to make one more comment about estranged adult children, which I realize is a completely separate topic from what we’re supposed to be discussing.
I find that my experience with my daughter and my experience with LO have similarities. Both are people that I don’t see enough of, and when I do see them, it’s bittersweet.
I have read that many estranged adult children will pop up periodically, which gives the parent the mistaken impression that the relationship is back on track, only for the child to disappear again for months.
I guess the similarity between my daughter and LO is that both of these are people that I care for far more than they care for me, and I have to keep my expectations very low.
This is a really important point, Norma. I’ll try to apply it in my own life. Thank you.
Miss Snow
I am formulating a response to your above post. I’ll respond soon. But I have a question. If your actions, silence and moving forward are apparent, how does stoicism help in where your mind is? If I’ve left my job behind, left LO behind in everything I actually DO, how can I do that in my mind too? I know leave the past in the past in action, but how do you do it in mind?
Brother I know this question was not aimed at me, but the best advice I could give you here is, find something else to occupy your brainspace. Seems simple in theory I know, and I get the enormity of what you’re trying to take on.
I know that I still revere LO to some high level status, that in reality she isn’t. I recognize that, acknowledge it, maybe chuckle about it and move on. To get over her completely is probably impossible for me, but the fact is I will always come away with nothing. I try to keep that in mind. Unless I’m actually truly, willing and able to go find her, talk to her and make some sort of inner peace with myself, about the fool I made of myself when we worked together, I see no point because she has her life, seems content in her life and unless she ever seeks me out, I should stay out of it.
A long time ago you wrote me, that LO will always hold a special place in my heart. That I see her as a perfect Angel but she’s really just a human being..
Try to remember the standard you hold for LO is all in your head. You will probably always think highly of her and perhaps more often than you’d like to, but she doesn’t have to be your beginning and end.
Sir Adam 🎩 🥃,
“But I have a question. “
Your questions are getting tougher for me! I’m just going to ramble from top of my head here, an ongoing learner’s view.
“If your actions, silence and moving forward are apparent, how does stoicism help in where your mind is? “
Stoicism IS a Mental and Emotional “shield” that could help one free from the past pains and prevent the future ones. “Actions, silence and moving forward” is more of MENTAL ones, with or without PHYSICAL ones.
Epictetus was a slave (later teacher), certainly immobile; Marcus a was an emperor, also unable to walk away from his duties; Seneca was a statesman, exiled first by one Emperor and later executed by his Emperor student. Unlike a typical Taoist (stay away from the society, ie. quit official jobs), all of Stoicism founding fathers lived in the middle of turmoils, but they learned how to control and MASTER their mind through their extremely challenging living.
Stoicism core principle is the “dichotomy of control”: focus only on what we can control — our own thoughts, beliefs, (re)actions and accept what we cannot — external events, outcomes, others’ actions.
“If I’ve left my job behind, left LO behind in everything I actually DO, how can I do that in my mind too? I know leave the past in the past in action, but how do you do it in mind? “
Your past is already in the past “in action”, just NOT in your mind yet. Logically speaking, you did NOT actively leave your job or LO behind, they “left” you out of your choice/control. You were forced out of the two domains; so the issues are how you REACT and MOVE on IN your MIND.
A. To be laid off or fired from work is the situation out of one’s control. If the former, I’d have an easier time to move on since it’s at no fault of mine (like my previous job); if the latter, I’d examine carefully whether it’s due my professional shortcomings or my supervisor’s fault (or both). Either way, a Stoic mind clearly recognizes and accepts the irreversible situation and thus moves on; it’s futile to dwell on blaming on the fate or nasty ex-bosses.
B. In terms of LO, the situation gets much more complicated and challenging, because the pain is not LO’s departure – external, but LE in your head unable to let her go (emotional reaction) — internal. Again we were in the same boat before last April in terms of dealing with our departed xLO, respectively.
However, I’m not in your head or had your life experiences, so whatever I speculate or suggest here might not be relevant or resonant with your sentiments or thoughts. If they sound offensive (definitely unintentional), please forgive me. 🫂
1. I agree with MJ on his view over your LO’s “angel” status in your head, it’s purely fantasy! LO is just a human being with her merits and shortcomings (you did/do not know either enough), except that you only saw her glowing, sweet face through your LE lenses. This glorified LO and your limited association served/severs as a mood regulator, soothing the obvious headache with your boss, and perhaps deeper pains inside of you, known or unknown — might be the root of your LE.
2. It seems that you’re a “rescuer” type limerent and your LE is to save your “damsel in stress” LO (who had a bad marriage/divorce). Before she left your old work, you got angry at her ex-husband & boyfriend who had mistreated her. Now, she’s married again, and you are still worried that her new husband would mistreat her, as if she were under your care. 😉
Let’s using a Stoic mindset here:
a. You don’t have much information about her thoughts and feelings; you just assumed that her new man might not treat her as nicely as you would do.
b. She and their new life is NOT your business, however it goes is out of your control. What caring or worrying about it would do to your own life?
c. She’s in the past, and your Mamma is at present and for the future. Focus on Mamma and yourself will largely improve your life quality; why not take concert actions now and here?
3. You mentioned something about your mother’s past vulnerability (suffered from lack of self-confidence or something else? I can’t remember well); and you were unable help give what you think she needed. Someone here thought that your savior’s complex was a root of your LE, through which you subconsciously wish to “put right” what’s gone “wrong” with your mother in the past, by successfully “saving” a distressed LO.
Using a Stoic speculation here:
a. You’re unavailable to “save” other women, except Mamma possibly.
b. LO is no longer available to be “saved” by anyone else, except her new husband or herself. She’s in the “out of control” bracket.
c. In today’s mental-health aware world, only ONESELF, w/o external helping/supporting hands, can “save/recover” oneself (from one’s past troubles/damages) with TONS of inner therapeutical/psychological work.
d. Anytime if that chivalry urge emerges, I’d ask myself, “Who am I who so boldly think/believe that I am able to save another soul? Can I even ‘save’ myself? “
Besides, based on what evident that you can assume that all men who have dealt with your LO are “bad”? or only a white knight like you who could “save” her? You don’t think such thought/sense is traditional, Macho arrogance? And how do you know that she would want you to “save” her, even if you both were single and available?
4. If you admit that there are still some unresolved issues from the past in terms of dealing with your suffered mother (she also had some strong wishes of you that you couldn’t comply, right?), then ask from a Stoic point of view: can you change/help the past her now? Can you change that piece history now? Can you using any present situation to rewrite/replace that piece of history now?…
A Stoic mind would always ask those questions. (As you know that I had to often deal with my “Narc” mother who originated my cPTSD ever since I had the first memory of her. I’ve been using the situation, as well my XLE, as my Stoic “teacher”; I’ve got a few by my “fated” path… 🙄)
As MJ says, you can keep LO and your limited time together as a sweet memory/dreams; but a Stoic stays awake and makes conscious, substantial, fulfilling contentment/joys in reality for themselves and their beloved, which would profoundly gratify them, like your recent cooking does!
Having LE feelings and nostalgia from moment to moment is fine, it takes time to fade anything out in the brain. One trick is NOT to talk/write about it, preferably not at all, which would not strengthen or rekindle LE in the mind. Let Stoic thoughts, disciplines and grounding actions lead/direct your emotions and focus to NOW and HERE.
“Core Principles and Practices:
The Dichotomy of Control: Distinguish between what you can control (your actions, thoughts, beliefs) and what you cannot (external events, outcomes, others’ actions).
Virtue is the Highest Good: The four cardinal virtues guide a Stoic life: Wisdom (understanding), Justice (fairness), Courage (endurance), and Temperance (moderation).
Amor Fati (Love of Fate): Embrace everything that happens, good or bad, as necessary and, if possible, love it.
Premeditatio Malorum (Premeditation of Evils): Anticipate potential difficulties or losses to reduce their impact if they occur.
Memento Mori (Remember Mortality): Reflect daily on the shortness of life to live with purpose and value time.
Focus on the Present: Control only the present moment, as the past and future are out of our hands.
Impression Management: Test every impression or emotion before acting on it, ensuring actions are rational rather than impulsive.”
*****
opps, I’ve gone verbose! 😊
“about the fool I made of myself when we worked together, I see no point because she has her life, seems content in her life and unless she ever seeks me out, I should stay out of it.”
Brother, I think that this is one thing that keeps me from dwelling on her and/or reaching out to her when it is completely within my means and capability. I have found it easier and easier to not be tempted to check her facebook. Because I know that it is not going to make me feel any better. She has moved on and it is high time I do myself.
“she doesn’t have to be your beginning and end”
I think (and I think you’ve said it yourself) that God sends people into your lives for a reason. And no, I don’t want her to be my beginning and end, but maybe I am just slow to understanding the lesson that God is trying to teach me through her presence in my life. In good news our oldest son came and helped me get Momma’s car running so I can go to church this Sunday for the first time since the start of February. And start job hunting with reliable transportation. Good suggestion on Indeed, it’s been very helpful along with the unemployment website.
Miss Snow
You’ve given me a lot to think about with your post.
“focus only on what we can control — our own thoughts, beliefs, (re)actions and accept what we cannot — external events, outcomes, others’ actions.”
I think that this is my biggest detriment to me to fully understand and embracing the stoics. I wish that I could change that LO was cheated on. I wished I could change that Momma is a rape survivor. But I can’t. I can’t change that ever. I can’t change that at one time Momma’s cousin was a victim of domestic abuse. Or that LF (my sister in law’s childhood friend) was in abusive relationship at one time. She’s free of it now.
” I agree with MJ on his view over your LO’s “angel” status in your head, it’s purely fantasy!”
I’m lucky to have my brother by my side to tell me what I might not want to hear. He truly is my brother from another mother.
“It seems that you’re a “rescuer” type limerent and your LE is to save your “damsel in stress” LO (who had a bad marriage/divorce). Before she left your old work, you got angry at her ex-husband & boyfriend who had mistreated her. Now, she’s married again, and you are still worried that her new husband would mistreat her, as if she were under your care.”
Yes, that is so perfectly said Miss Snow. Her safety and happiness feel like my own personal responsibility.
“You mentioned something about your mother’s past vulnerability (suffered from lack of self-confidence or something else? I can’t remember well); and you were unable help give what you think she needed. Someone here thought that your savior’s complex was a root of your LE, through which you subconsciously wish to “put right” what’s gone “wrong” with your mother in the past, by successfully “saving” a distressed LO.”
I think the difficult thing with my mother, is while father loved her and told mother she was beautiful the way she was, mother never believed, I don’t think. A lot like Momma as she gets older. But I felt bad, even as a boy, even when I didn’t exactly understand it, I felt bad that I couldn’t make mother feel better about herself. Even though it was out of my control. I love my mother and just wished that she saw herself beyond her “perceived” physical appearance.
“Anytime if that chivalry urge emerges, I’d ask myself, “Who am I who so boldly think/believe that I am able to save another soul? Can I even ‘save’ myself? “
Wow way to punch me in the gut Miss Snow. 🙂 And no, I can’t save myself.
” Embrace everything that happens, good or bad, as necessary and, if possible, love it.”
My brother helps me with that through God more than fate. Maybe she was a lesson like I said to MJ above that I still have to learn. Life is what it is and I have to recognize that. Take the good with the bad?
“opps, I’ve gone verbose!”
I wouldn’t have you any other way Miss Snow. I find our conversations quite engaging and enjoyable.
Sir 🎩 🥃,
[focus only on what we can control — our own thoughts, beliefs, (re)actions and accept what we cannot — external events, outcomes, others’ actions.]
“I think that this is my biggest detriment to me to fully understand and embracing the stoics. “
It’s not just you, but most of people, both in the East and West, run in auto-pilot mode, based on local culture, rarely take time to slow down and enquire: what is actually making me feel bad/sad/angry… One universal human nature is that almost no one wants to acknowledge oneself’s wrongdoing or feel shameful.
But in COO, we’re taught/demanded since little, at schools and home, to self-reflect first before pointing figures at others: first check whether we did something wrong that could cause our own “miseries”. If someone else clearly did us wrong, then check if we reacted in smart or unwise ways; then ask whether we are able to right others’ wrongdoings? This training aligns 20~30% with Stoicism, although the terminology did/does not exist over there, except the Taoism cultivation.
“I wish that I could change that LO was cheated on. I wished I could change that Momma is a rape survivor. But I can’t. I can’t change that ever. I can’t change that at one time Momma’s cousin was a victim of domestic abuse. Or that LF (my sister in law’s childhood friend) was in abusive relationship at one time. She’s free of it now.”
Such negative human natures and horrible phenomena exist in every society, no matter under what type of culture or political system; there is little we ordinary human beings could do about them! Recognizing and accepting them should help bring us some inner peace (Stoic) with some compassion (Buddhistic).
“I’m lucky to have my brother by my side to tell me what I might not want to hear. He truly is my brother from another mother.”
Well, it’s easier to receive constructive criticism from a true friend/brother. To be an authentic Stoic, one also needs to keep steady equilibrium to face even destructive/negative criticism from enemies/rivals or anyone. First check within ourselves to see if criticism has some merits and then correct/improve ourselves. If it’s purposefully mean /hurtful, ignore it and keep holding our inner peace; use the situation/adversity as a Stoic “teacher”.
“Yes, that is so perfectly said Miss Snow. Her safety and happiness feel like my own personal responsibility.”
That’s a result of LE thinking and one of the West’s chivalry traditions. But, we no longer run around in woods infested with bandits, so NO maidenhood needs “white knights” to defend, period! Today’s task is almost like how to NOT “crush” those “snowflake” youngsters. As the society consistently evolve, forwards or backwards, our mind has to adopt /adjust to new cultural environment if we want to psychologically get along well with others.
“I think the difficult thing with my mother, is while father loved her and told mother she was beautiful the way she was, mother never believed, I don’t think. A lot like Momma as she gets older.”
Their worry/fear is caused by the excessive/obsessive focus on females’ external beauty and youth particularly in the US. It’s less in Europe and even lesser in the East. By comparison, there are less insufficiently-confident women (by proportion) is the East than in the US. Just check inside their eyes when you walk around as a tourist.
“But I felt bad, even as a boy, even when I didn’t exactly understand it, I felt bad that I couldn’t make mother feel better about herself. Even though it was out of my control. I love my mother and just wished that she saw herself beyond her “perceived” physical appearance.”
By nature, children were/are unable to change/improve adults mindset or life quality; also, it’s not children’s task to do so. Ideal/mature parents should be responsible first for their own physical and mental wellbeing, while unconditionally, lovingly raising children totally for children’s own welfare/benefits — not just pass down a blood line or expect children to repay them with love/care in the future. If good children do genuinely love/care for their aging parents, that’s a life bonus or a good karma of parent’s parenting!
“Wow way to punch me in the gut Miss Snow. 🙂 And no, I can’t save myself.”
Well, you asked for my opinion, so I have to honestly tell you my Stoic perspective on your case. However, the self-inquiry applies not just to you, but literally ALL of us, including professional therapists.
[Embrace everything that happens, good or bad, as necessary and, if possible, love it.]
“Maybe she was a lesson like I said to MJ above that I still have to learn. Life is what it is and I have to recognize that. Take the good with the bad?”
Every LO/LE talked/mentioned in LwL is a catalyst or a LIFE lesson to the limerent, respectively; it’s each limerent’ task to figure out WHAT and WHY. Answers are 💯 inside each limerent; blaming on LO, good or bad, is futile for one’s self-discovery and self growth — my Stoic perspective.
Jung points out, “Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate”. This profound statement highlights that personal patterns, traumas, and hidden motivations drive behavior until recognized, turning psychological, unconscious habits into perceived external destiny.
Base on this insight (true to me), I don’t think I can ever say, “Life is what it is…”. External phenomena maybe same, but our varied recognization of them is influenced by our past experiences (positive & negative), personality (strength & weakness), and mindset (conscious or unconscious). That’s why your/MJ’s LO inflicts a painful LE in you/MJ, but not in other men. So, the inquire is directed at you (two) again: Why Me?
“I wouldn’t have you any other way Miss Snow. I find our conversations quite engaging and enjoyable.”
Thank you for listening to my limited, narrow views… talking with you is a learning process for myself. I’m still practicing Stoic disciplines a lot of time each day, even by reading selective posts here — particularly the ones that run my patience/endurance out… Sometimes, it took a bit of effort to hold my eager tongue…
Then I question myself: why do I get annoyed by different/negative (cynical or self-centered or ignorant) opinions? What’s triggered inside me? Could I hold equilibrium while facing those verbal outings (having nothing to do with me personally)?
By the inquiry and reminding myself Stoicism repeatedly, I’m becoming more relaxed/serene and stay mostly in cheery moods, even after nightmares…. 😊
I hope you are becoming stronger, more confident and peaceful (let go of the past), especially when you’re searching a new job.
I just wanted to add that I finally saw Parthenope, and it relates to the part of this conversation about women’s appearance. At first it looked like a male gaze fantasy, but as the movie went on, it became clear that it was about Parthenope learning to find her life’s meaning in something NOT connected to her youth and beauty. She discovered that they would fade, but her mind and contributions could continue to bring rewards to her and others! US culture has gotten so youth-focused as of late that we all could learn this.
🦇 📕,
I’m so glad that you finally get to watch Parthenope and got what I felt last year after watching it. I thought I must be a crazy outlier in thinking what I thought — so different from the movie review. It’s so my kind of story❗️
“it was about Parthenope learning to find her life’s meaning in something NOT connected to her youth and beauty. She discovered that they would fade, but her mind and contributions could continue to bring rewards to her and others! “
I can’t think of any more insightful review than what you’ve just summarized here! No wonder you’re a gifted 💝, published writer!
From a Stoic point of view, this movie is an example of how a woman, with both beauty and brain, finally triumphs by NOT caring about others’ over-complimentary opinions on her but focusing on her own thinking, searching of life essence, and meaningful serving for her own life and others’. She relies on herself in body (reality), mind and soul while keeping her eyes/curiosity open.
“US culture has gotten so youth-focused as of late that we all could learn this.”
Absolutely 🆎! US’ pop culture has been powerfully “brainwashing” 3 generations since 60s and is not slowing down… how many women and men have become its “victims”⁉️ 😉
Fortunately, there are still a few young and old wise souls in some corners of the world who don’t buy trashy stuff of the US pop culture.
A Face, a Cup
Molly Peacock
1947 –
The thousand hairline cracks in an aged face
match the hairline cracks in an aged cup
and come from similar insults: careless, base
self-absorbed gestures from a younger face,
cruel and fine. Bang! Each disturbed trace
deepens to a visible crack. A break-up,
a mix-up, a wild mistake: these show in a face
like the hairline cracks in an ancient cup.
Neither wholly broken nor all used up
the cup becomes a visage, unstable.
One never knows what will crack it open
and finish it. Banged too hard on a table?
Yet happiness might crack a face open
in a better way: hairline tracery as laugh lines
releasing the joys of ancient thoughts
cupped into use, and suddenly able.
Wow, Miss Snow is a really hard act to follow. It’s unfortunate that I chose this exact moment to talk about a conversation I had with one of my best girlfriends last night.
I notice that Miss Snow seems to think it’s better NOT to talk about something that’s bothering you? I feel like I need to talk about things in order to process them. Maybe both are correct.
Anyway, what is interesting about my friend is that she has had two sons, both of whom grew up to be drug addicts, despite her best efforts. She is a straight-arrow, church-going person who has no substance abuse issues herself, but her dad was an alcoholic, and apparently the genes were passed to her sons? Not sure how that works, but she was an excellent mom and it is inconceivable to me how both of these boys ended up in such dire straits.
One of them died of an overdose about eight years ago. The other one is somewhat functional. He is homeless, but he does have a job and some income.
She is moving out of state later this week, and he is staying here. He actually lives in a homeless encampment not far from my house.
I told her about my recent encounter with my long-lost daughter, and I realized that she is the perfect person to discuss this with. My daughter has no substance abuse issues, but her refusal to stay in touch with me mimics my friend’s son’s behavior.
My friend understands perfectly what it’s like to have an unstable relationship with a child. She also understands what it’s like to be blamed by outsiders who don’t understand–as if she must have done SOMETHING to make him this way.
I have never actually been blamed to my face, but I have gotten strange looks from people who can’t imagine what it’s like to be shunned by not one, but THREE adult children.
Sometimes all you can do is accept your losses and keep breathing.
I take inspiration from her grace. She understood perfectly what it felt like to reconnect with my daughter, only to have her vanish again. She knows that this is not necessarily the “start” of anything, it’s just a thing that happened.
I’ve strongly recommended and would repeat: NOT talk/write about ONLY unavailable LO/xLO excessively, which would certainly keep adding oil to unwanted and unhealthy LE embers and unending pains to the limerents.
Hi Imho and Bewitched!
Comments closed down on the other post, so I’ve moved here!
So nice to chat to you both as if we were sitting down for coffee.. sigh.
Good to hear from you,Bewitched!
It‘s actually refreshing to hear someone saying it was beneficial for them to concentrate not on themselves but on their/other people. All I hear is „finally put yourself first“ , just assuming that all women slave away for others all the time. It’s not true like all „all women/men“ statements. For me a mixture is best- I finally care less about other’s opinions of me, and I try to focus more on what makes me happy, and I think for example it makes me happy to be around and be there for my kids since they are growing up and time with them is limited.
I think my slump is definitely also hormone-related since I feel better now which matches cycle.
Unfortunately it doesn’t help to know it’s hormones when you feel hopeless and sad, I found… Since my mood (and a bit of stuff like putting on weight, dry eyes)is the only symptom that bothers me, I’m never sure if it‘s something I should handle myself (get a grip! Take some supplements!) or tell a doctor about.
Bewitched, you say body chemistry settles down eventually, but I gathered that for me it’s just the beginning of roller coaster until menopause sets in which might be years?
My sore point is the healthy diet- I seem not to be able to cut the sugar..same old.
As to LOs- I think maybe there’s not much to decide here, Imho, about the two options I mentioned. Maybe you can just let it run its course and observe what it’ll be. It can also be one merging into the other- it’s a bit like that with my LO2. He left work and town when I was still quite intoxicated, but our contact was limited after that and my limerence kind of faded out over time without any of the negative stuff I had with XLO. He remained the one who got away and a passion in my head for a long time, but life got on (and I transferred to my XLo..) and I realized at some point that I still like him very much and he’ll remain special for me, but nothing more. There’s a vague chance he might come back to town in the futures, and I realized that I don’t really fancy that! He’s interesting and exciting but also exhausting- it’s ok like it is now, just small doses from time to time.
And maybe that’s where you might arrive at without doing much. I know I was hinting to you in the proactive direction in the past, but now the situation is different and I would maybe just let go, let him sit in your mind as a cherished person but not get active about it, and since he doesn’t seem very active, it might all fade out quite benevolently?
Bewitched, it’ll be interesting how that project will go. Your LO seems to be the opposite to my XLO who shows his best sides at work and that’s where we click most. So now most of contact is on a private basis, his weaker sides show more which was good for getting out of limerence. Working with yours seems where you get his weaker sides. But there’s a difference between an eye-rolling exasperated but secretly smiling”he’s cute but so chaotic”and real annoyance or, third option, resentment stemming from too much positive limerent feelings in the past . Me, I had problems to divine between these.
But I guess you are so much out of the woods that you’ll have no problems sorting that out!
So nice to catch up with you two!
Have a great day!😘😘
Bewitched, Mila,
I think the closing of comments on the other blog post was Dr L’s way of telling us ladies to politely move along to the coffeehouse to chit chat.
I’m exhausted today. This world situation is having some impacts on top of everything else going on !
Anyway, our little catch-up here is very comforting so I’m indulging in a hot chocolate – forget the coffee.
Bewitched, you got the order correct on the LE podium places, Mila is in the lead and I’m behind you trying to catch up but heading in kind of the right direction.
I’m not using LO thoughts for relief and escapism as much as I was.
Your project of several years sounds very committing, regardless of xLO involvement. I wish you well with it. I guess you are not worrying about when or if you next meet xLO anymore ? as this was the main trigger in the past for you if I’m correct.
I fear a meeting with my LO would trigger me again and get me all starry eyed again and disregulate me.
So Mila, the letting go you describe is probably the right thing to do and will be the likely outcome. I don’t want him to see me all old in 5 years time anyway 😂
On the topic of focussing on others as a help out a slump is very interesting. I shut down from people when I’m down and go into myself too much, so I am pushing myself to be more accountable to others. I’m doing tasks at work now to please others, because the joy in the tasks went during my slump. It’s probably not the recommended approach but it’s kind of working to drag me out the shadows.
In my defense I have too many stakeholders to handle and mostly male.
Do they serve some nice cake at this coffeehouse ?!
☕🍰
Imho
If they serve red velvet cake, I’m there. Not much of a sweets eater but I’ll eat some red velvet cake and drink hot cocoa. Can’t drink coffee anymore thanks to my atrial AFib. Would you forgive me if I spike my cocoa with peppermint schnapps? 😉
My Ladies,
I never pay any attention to which blog I am on, so thank you for moving our chit-chat, Mila.
“It‘s actually refreshing to hear someone saying it was beneficial for them to concentrate not on themselves but on their/other people”
To be honest, this is as much for them as for me. I get a lot back from being with and bouncing off other people. I really dig community and enjoy friendly interactions (not just with LOs!). But that is me. Other’s require space away to develop their dreams that might be more individual pursuits after years spent caring for, or otherwise supporting those around them. The fact that I have an extremely supportive SO also gives me time and space that others with a young family don’t have? I guess people are ‘my thing’, on some level. I found full time WFH during the pandemic excruciating and that actually taught me a lot about myself. The fact that I went through the early stages of my LE at the same time is also not a coincidence, I bet. Other people who are drained and depleted from caring responsibilities – or – heavy and stressful roles at work, probably need entirely different things, more time and space for themselves. Or, a mixture of the two, like you say, Mila.
“Bewitched, you say body chemistry settles down eventually, but I gathered that for me it’s just the beginning of roller coaster until menopause sets in which might be years?”
Yeah, its got to calm down, but how long that takes is really variable, obviously. I found that the ‘peri’ years were awful, I had maybe 3 years of that, monthly cycle-related migraines, extremely heavy periods, and periodic rage. I also felt like I was losing my mind. It passed. I don’t even know if I am through the peri stage yet as I am on the pill so bloods wont tell me that 🤷. As I mentioned, my LE overlapped with the final stages of the peri-awfulness/rage and that probably did help because I was euphoric for a good long while, which killed the bad mental state and really distracted me. Family circumstances also were very bad at the time so, boy, did I need distraction (probably why I fell limerent). Although everyone is different, I think that it is important to have hope if you are having a bad meno-hormonal time, because it *will* pass. getting through as un-scathed as possible is important, relying on your friends (who may also be rage filled 😆) and seeing the black humour in it really helped me. One game we played was adding to a list of all the obscure things that are scuppered due to menopause (like your histamine response, who knew!).
Re: this:
“But there’s a difference between an eye-rolling exasperated but secretly smiling”he’s cute but so chaotic”and real annoyance or, third option, resentment stemming from too much positive limerent feelings in the past .”
And this:
“I guess you are not worrying about when or if you next meet xLO anymore ? as this was the main trigger in the past for you if I’m correct.”
Oh, its definitely the latter, right now and I am not worried. When I see him in person, I imagine that it will be an even weaker reaction than ever before, because this is what happened the most recent time – I was more immune than ever before. I am definitely noticing my pattern which is very much more susceptible in person than virtually, but over time, I recover faster and faster after a F2F encounter.
But he is like a puppy and he sticks to me like glue to a blanket, so let’s see.
Imho, I really relate to your mostly males stakeholders comment. I have some of those too, there are some nice ones though, who I focus on. Going into yourself is never good. One thing I believe strongly is that the brain is so malleable. Complaining and negativity, even just in my head, strengthens the wrong neural connections. I end up having bad dreams (not very bad but just anxious work stress dreams, say). To counter this, I am trying to cultivate enjoyment, generally.
Well, I gotta run here as I’m at work.
I wish a nice weekend to you both. I really hope you get to do something you enjoy!
😘😘
I have just made a connection between my limerence and anxiety.
The more anxious I am feeling, the stronger are my feelings for LO.
I have gotten overwhelmed by events of the past week or so, and my feelings for LO are more intense than they have been in a while.
And, I hate to say it, but LO is NOT a good person to turn to when I am in a state of anxiety. He either can’t or won’t help, and I am surprised that some part of my brain thinks this is the right strategy for me.
Much better to turn to meditation and gentle breathing exercises.