Another trip to the LwL coffeehouse open thread, where conversations ramble and wisdom is sometimes uncovered among the cinnamon rolls.
This week, I’m going to kick off the conversation by continuing a topic that’s emerged over the last couple of posts: choosing a partner.
What’s on my mind at the moment is the difference between the way that a fully informed limerent looking for a partner would approach the issue, and how most of us just muddle along.
The usual trajectory of dating in my day was: meet someone, feel the glimmer, pursue them, and hope it works out.
But in my day (1990s) there were no dating apps.
You generally met people within your existing social circle, or at least your local community, and you generally knew what to expect of them in terms of beliefs and behaviour.
Sure, life was still rich with personal weirdness, but there was a sort of pre-selection going on – what the social psychologists call assortative mating.
We tend to pick people who are similar to ourselves, and that kind of happened automatically when we were dating locally. There was a bias towards the familiar.
Nowadays, technology handles the pre-selection process. Photos and bios and vibes predominate. There is still a proximity element, as the pool of candidates on a dating app is usually limited to a given area, but within that area there is a lot more scope for mixing among demographics, cultural backgrounds, and socioeconomic status.
I wonder how much that change means the “hope it works out” phase of dating is even more precarious than it used to be.
It seems like it would be more urgent than ever to try and establish early on whether you are compatible with the person you are dating. Otherwise there is a big old trap waiting: go on a few dates with someone you don’t really know, fall into limerence for them, and then discover that you have totally different expectations about dating etiquette, what you want out of a relationship, and what love should be like.
It’s a trap because you only hit the “what’s going on between us?” moment after you’re already addicted.
Choosing seems to be a much more urgent issue in the new dating world, but there is another big issue that complicates this principle. Choosing is kind of a luxury for many people.
Their swipe-to-match ratio is low. They aren’t fielding offers; they’re looking for hope.
Many limerents tell me that the start of the glimmer was thinking their LO liked them. The lingering gaze. The flirty joke. These were the initiating moments that made the limerent believe they had a chance, and started the cascade of reward reinforcement that led into person addiction.
The novelty of being desired was intoxicating.
In those cases, it’s not really about filtering through possible candidates to find the compatible mate, it’s more like finding a needle in a haystack. It often feels like our LOs choose us, rather than us choosing them.
Now, this isn’t meant as a counsel of despair. There are things that can be done to improve your appeal. Working on your health, wealth, appearance, personality, and charisma can increase your odds of attracting more people and, counterintuitively, being clear about what kind of person you are seeking can actually attract them towards you.
But, the point stands – holding off on giving into limerence is a good idea regardless of how rarely you encounter a potential LO. Don’t chase the dragon until you’re sure you want to catch it.
Anyway, just some talking points to start the conversation going. Perhaps someone who has been playing the dating game within the last couple of decades could chime in and let me know how things are going…
As you’ve said, Dr. L, uncertainty is a major driver of limerence. When I look back at when I was dating in the past 20 years, I didn’t have long relationships with anyone I had limerence for. That may be because my interest was clearly reciprocated by those partners. But I went on a couple of dates and became quite enamored with someone I found very attractive but who had probably “friend-zoned” me. Enamored enough that I admit to looking up this person a few times in the 18 years since we had two dates. Luckily for me, this person ghosted me, and I had too much pride for pursuit with more energy when I was getting so little back. This was someone I met online, and seemed to be my dream partner – in every way except degree of desire for me.
I met my SO online about a year later. SO did not seem like my dream partner but was attractive and interesting, and very interested. I felt happier with SO than I’d been while dating anyone else before SO. Being with SO felt easy, whether we were together or apart, and even when I was under extreme stress at work.
THIRD WHEEL |NY Time
Want to Find the Love of Your Life? Look Up.
As our digital worlds continue to steal our attention, some people are taking a more intentional approach to meeting strangers in real life.
By Gina Cherelus
In the Third Wheel column, Gina Cherelus explores the delights and horrors of sex, dating and relationships.
Aug. 16, 2025, 5:01 a.m. ET
[Edited by Tom: please don’t post other people’s copyrighted articles unaltered. Link to source, and provide commentary]
As I was ending my single life, I found those random pickup moments (e.g., at a cafe with a book) your article describes to be increasingly infrequent. When I had a first date, it was more like this:
– a mutual spark with someone I already knew as an acquaintance (not a friend) leads to a date (frequently worked and one time this led to a long relationship for me, the last “ex” before my SO)
– at a party, introduced by a mutual friend to someone who already was interested in me (might have worked if I was compatible with the interested one)
– unwitting double/blind date, where two friends invite two more single friends to a dinner, bar, or club, and I hit it off with the other friend (requires you to have friends who enjoy connecting other people in small group settings)
– meet someone while traveling (the pressure is off and people seem willing to get to know each other faster when they are on holiday, though this never led to a long relationship for me)
– meet online and then meet at a bar where we both have a posse (this was a disaster and I don’t recommend it. I never was good at picking up dates when I was out with friends at a bar.)
– meet online and then meet in person for a private date (either sparks would fly, or we’d at least feel cozy, or we just didn’t hit it off. I think this is the typical and best way to do online dating, as you know where you stand quickly).
– meet while having dinner alone at the bar of an interesting restaurant and you happen to be sitting next to someone doing the same thing, and you strike up a conversation. This happened to me after I was married and my SO was working late. I said that while I enjoyed the conversation, I was not available but I had a single friend who I thought might be a good match for this interesting and attractive stranger. I got contact info (didn’t give mine) but I never followed through. There was something about the energy this person exuded. Even though we said goodbye amiably and nothing happened beyond talking, I got “bunny boiler” vibes and I did not want to run into this person again.
That’s how it worked when I was single, too. When I moved to a new town, I went online to find friends, since even at church it was hard (most people were much older). In those days, “online” still meant local BBS’s, so at least the person likely lived nearby.
I am so old, I was dating in the 1970s and got married in the 1980s. I can’t imagine trying to date in the current environment.
About ten years ago, my twin daughters took me out to lunch for Mother’s Day. I was thrilled, of course, but both of them were on their phones the entire time.
I wondered if it would be the same way on a date?
Not on a first date.
If I was back on the market and a woman of my vintage did that, I think I’d excuse myself, square the tab at the hostess station, and leave $20, if I brought her.
Then, I’d text her from the car.
“Tab paid. [Ask hostess for cab fare.]”
Norma Desmond,
“I wondered if it would be the same way on a date?”
I went on 3 dates with 2 different people about a month ago and neither got out his phone.
” It often feels like our LOs choose us, rather than us choosing them.”
I’m going to disagree with this to an extent. With the most recent one, I was definitely attracted to him when I met him. I’d say that his confirming his interest months later made things go off into what I’d say was close to limerence or maybe limerence.
I’d say the mutuality kicked it up into Crazy Town. 🙂
Dame Marcia whether limerence picks us or limerence picks them. LO picks us. And they know it. Damn them.
Adam,
I don’t agree. I picked him. I picked the last one, too.
Where is MJ? He is the master of hot-and-cold, disappear-and-then-reappear behavior! 🙂
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8309dsoq68
I saw this on YouTube and thought of him. I think it explains LF. It’s P Control. I agree with everything the coach on the video says. She might not be wholly aware she’s doing it.
Do men practice D Control? I’d say married or partnered LOs can.
“I saw this on YouTube and thought of him. I think it explains LF. It’s P Control.”
That may be true, but LF and I aren’t hanging out, so I don’t think it applies..
I’m glad you’re thinking of me. Although we can all just put LF the hell away and not worry about anything she may or may not be thinking. It really doesn’t matter. Her and I had some exchanges this week (after almost 6 months of strict LC) and mainly they were pleasant. For a second or two, I thought she might be coming around, but after confronting her, it’s all just a front. I think she’s doing it to simply keep peace at work.
Both of us admitted to avoiding each other and the awkwardness as a result. However her interest is not with me. She basically told me to stay in my lane because she has a SO now and I would be wise not to get too friendly again. So I agreed. (Her SO is not the married guy, but another Co-Worker that came around after I went LC.)(I refer to him as “ShortKing” since he’s about her size.)
I’m putting a kibosh on the whole the damn thing. I feel like we can be pleasant to one another, for the sake of being co-workers, but that’s it and it has to remain that simple. I really don’t feel like dragging any of it out anymore. I realize I wasted a massive ton of time with all my ridiculous orbiting. I’m irritated but also at a loss for words. There is a lot I still don’t understand and her eye contact is what keeps messing with me, but I’m working on shutting that down too although I really can’t control what she does with her eyes. I’m just sick of it tbh. Everything rests on her now if she ever wants things to increase and I really don’t ever see that happening. I don’t think I care.
She’s not being so vicious as to go and report me to HR or telling all our other Co-Workers, I’m a creep. So it’s good she’s not being vengeful. I know both of us understand we have good jobs and are not about to put them in jeopardy for dumb s#!+. I mean she can get dramatic sometimes but also exudes a level of class by not going overboard about petty stuff and that’s just always been another reason her and I got along. I don’t think she hates me, but I don’t think she likes me too much either. She doesn’t have to because she’s got someone else now. Or so she says. I care, but actually kinda don’t. He can deal with her drama.
On the plus side, the new gal that recently transferred over to the Dept. is super nice. (I think she’s of Latina descent too!! Oh $#!+ Adam!! 😁😍🥰) Her and I had some nice conversations during the week. I complimented her often, got her cool drinks and kept things super light. I don’t see it going anywhere as of yet. Already other Dudes at work are heavy Mackin on her too, because she’s very personable. She looks to be in her late 30s, possibly 40ish, but if I had to guess I’d say she’s 37 or 38. I haven’t asked. I do know she does have an Ex SO and a 8 year old Son from that relationship. Not trying to pry too much from her. For now, I’m just being a gentleman.
MJ,
“That may be true, but LF and I aren’t hanging out, so I don’t think it applies..”
My dear, the video does apply. It so applies. At least when you were hanging out with her. I can’t hand you the lesson and do all the connecting the dots for you. I don’t have the patience and you’re too old for me to have to do that. 🙂 Plus it applies to other women you talk to in the future.
“She basically told me to stay in my lane because she has a SO now and I would be wise not to get too friendly again. So I agreed. (Her SO is not the married guy, but another Co-Worker that came around after I went LC.)
Don’t be mad at me for saying this, but I’m kind of impressed with her. Girl has some game.
“I refer to him as “ShortKing” since he’s about her size.”
It don’t matter unless they’re standing up, right? 🙂 Sorry. Couldn’t help myself.
“Her and I had some nice conversations during the week. I complimented her often, got her cool drinks and kept things super light. I don’t see it going anywhere as of yet.”
Why? I don’t know what you mean “as of yet.” You’ve talked to her. You’ve made contact. NOW is the time.
MJ,
One more thing … You sound angry at LF. And I get it. I was angry at my last full-blown LO for a while after I went NC. I blamed him for wasting my time and leading me on. And he did both of those things, but I LET HIM. I put myself in the position of being on “standby” (at least in my mind; I don’t think he ever thought of it like that), hoping he’d change his mind and pick me. And I’m going to be direct here … but you put yourself in the orbiter position with LF.
Don’t do it again with this new woman. I’m not saying you can’t be friendly. But don’t orbit. If you’re interested, ask her out. If you’re not, don’t. But don’t put yourself in the hovering friend zone if you want more.
One of the hardest things about my LE with a co-worker, who is now in a loving relationship, is the loss of the friendship.
We’ve been close for 15 years but I know now that it will never be the same again and it hurts like hell.
This loss, combined with the all consuming jealousy, is a super toxic double whammy.
Yes, it was a friendship from which we took different pleasures and needs, and ultimately it wasn’t sensible. But it doesn’t mean that the recent changes haven’t left a huge hole for me emotionally.
The awkwardness between us is profound, and her gusrdrails are up. Like her brain has been been reprogrammed to see me as nothing more than another colleague.
I could cry. I do cry. Grief and yearning from dawn to dusk.
MJ my brother from another mother
You seem to have a penchant for the “make a run for the border” (and I know you’re old enough to get that reference) as I do with dark chocolate. And while I hate the taste of white chocolate. I made an exception with Momma. 😏
LaR
I haven’t gotten one yet. Still working up the hook-handled umbrella and bowler to complete the John Steed look.
“ that’s why you shouldn’t row back on what you said unless you really want to.”
I still struggle to entertain that LO is human. That she knew I favored her and enjoyed her. I don’t think she directly manipulated me, but she didn’t shy away from the favor I gave her unconditionally.
“ But I was interested when you said ‘she chose me’ – as to what she actually did to make it look like it was a choice she made.”
I think the combination of her being betrayed by her ex with infidelity and breaking up her family and sensing my uncertainty in my middle age of my own life represented as concern
and/or affection as an easement of what we were both going through. I have no doubt in my mind that even if I tried to cross the line she would not have been willing to. I think we were just both trying to comfort each other. She just handled better than I did.
“One more thing … You sound angry at LF. And I get it.”
Marcia
I am. Yet I also understand where I was and still am the bad guy in this episode. Top all of it off with a s—ton of embarrassment to go along with it. If she hadn’t come across so loving, forgiving and understanding about any of my past plights or failures, I probably wouldn’t feel like such a horses a$$ now. I mean she played that card like she owned it..
You comment..
“Don’t be mad at me for saying this, but I’m kind of impressed with her. Girl has some game.”
She can only do this because she’s hot. I’m most likely not the first guy she’s played. But I also wonder if she even realizes she’s doing it. I tried very hard not to ever make this situation a full blown LE, but it seems to still rear ugly limerent-like tendencies.
I feel sometimes it’s obvious I was played like a well tuned violin by her, with all the adoration I was heaping her way. Yet it was all about good intent and hopeful that moving the needle would yield fruit. Then I get doubly angry again because it didn’t. But this is classic MJ, trying to turn over new leafs and move beyond being the bad guy. While being the idiot seems to be all I know now.
Chalk it up to some of that Limerent Emeritus Wisdom he posts about often. About how Limerents don’t think clearly all the time and do dumb things. Then LOs go off-script and completely take our mindset into another dimension. I feel like the recent talk I just had with LF was exactly that and then some, the other night..
MJ,
“If she hadn’t come across so loving, forgiving and understanding about any of my past plights or failures, I probably wouldn’t feel like such a horses a$$ now. I mean she played that card like she owned it..”
I’d like to think I’m a fairly non-judgmental person, but there are things that a man could tell me about his past that would unnerve me. Is that not true of you as well? Aren’t there things a woman could tell you about her past that would unnerve you or make you see her differently?
“She can only do this because she’s hot. I’m most likely not the first guy she’s played.”
HOW DID SHE PLAY YOU?
She didn’t date you or have sex with you and lie that you were the only one or accept gifts or expensive dinners. I don’t understand how she played you.
“Yet it was all about good intent and hopeful that moving the needle would yield fruit. ”
What fruit? What are you talking about? You’d already asked her to get together (hang out ?) months earlier. She didn’t do it. To me, that was your answer.
I don’t understand what you were expecting from her that she didn’t provide or how you feel you were manipulated. Really. I’m trying to figure it out. I’m not being sarcastic.
Perhaps “playing” isn’t the right word. It just felt that way because sometimes it felt like a really strong connection. I can blame myself or limerence or fate or outright stupidity all I want but ultimately it comes down to me. Of course the answers were right in my face all the time. Rejection was blatant from the get-go.
To make an attempt to explain, about I’ll say is I thought LF was going to be a person who would improve my situation, over all that LO sadness I was wrapped up in at the time. Perhaps it was the timing but she afforded me some excitement and hope to look forward to. She was a real person I was connecting with thru my eyes and then finally meeting and getting to know her just seemed too good to be true. She embodied almost every ounce of connection I longed for with LO and ironically they were both the same age.. I probably was and probably am in another LE to some degree but I have always fought it. LF has never made me as emotional as LO did. (But almost..)
It’s ok if you don’t understand it. I don’t know if I do either. She flat out told me we would only be friends. To my limerent mindset, I wasn’t listening and wasn’t going to try to listen either.
“The awkwardness between us is profound, and her gusrdrails are up. Like her brain has been been reprogrammed to see me as nothing more than another colleague.
I could cry. I do cry. Grief and yearning from dawn to dusk.”
Phil
I completely understand this feeling.
The part about the guardrails being up especially. For me it hurts because I see this person everyday and I remember loving so much being around her and her company. The way we could make fun of each other and it was all ok. The stuff we talked about. Personal matters and how I thought we were supportive of one another. No matter what. How would I know one more personal detail would send it careening off into the ditch?
It just hurts man. I get it. I hate feeling awkward around her now too. It’s like it’s just hard for me to even see her and not think of some fun moment between us. I miss that. Will probably always miss it, but that was then and this is now..
MJ,
“It’s ok if you don’t understand it. I don’t know if I do either. She flat out told me we would only be friends.”
Ok. Then she wasn’t playing you. She told you the truth. I’m not bringing this up to embarrass you or make you feel bad. Just trying to prevent you from getting into this scenario again.
“She embodied almost every ounce of connection I longed for with LO ”
So this begs the question … Is this all you want? I’m not negating your friendship with LF, but … it was a work friend where the friendship extended a bit beyond work and you texted each other. Is that all you wanted from your LO? It’s … kind of crumbs.
“Ok. Then she wasn’t playing you. She told you the truth. I’m not bringing this up to embarrass you or make you feel bad.”
Marcia,
We can debate this out all night and in the end you are going to be right by every account. I can look at it like she may not have actually been playing me directly, but I feel like it was sort of an indirect play. Where she stood her ground and liked having the upper hand, along with the attention. (Orbiting) Since we Men look at all this stuff differently, how can you believe I am any different? She’s looking at us thru a simple platonic lens and basically I’m already past the honeymoon and looking towards retirement and chilling out with her on the porch in our Adirondack chairs, sipping on lemonade.
I think this proves all the chatter on here, about the difficulty being friends with a LO can be and is a very difficult and confusing thing. Women know within 5 minutes of meeting a guy, whether or not they’re going to sleep with him and so a lot of it rests on their call. You’ve often stated it yourself. That the person being sought-after will show interest, if the interest is actually there. I often perceived LFs attention as “possibly” something more. Not only that, I’m also stubborn as f—.
LF said we would only be friends. That that was all we would ever be. But I wasn’t hearing it. Haven’t you ever heard the joke phrase, “no means yes?”
“So this begs the question … Is this all you want? I’m not negating your friendship with LF, but … it was a work friend where the friendship extended a bit beyond work and you texted each other. Is that all you wanted from your LO? It’s … kind of crumbs.”
By embodiment, I was referring to how things were more good and normal with LF versus the LO fiasco that never should have started in the first place. LO turned into this fantastical human, who to this day is like my perfect dream Girl. Even though I don’t know her or have ever really met her, all I see is someone who “looks” like she could be my everything.
If I could’ve had just an inkling of LO, to what I had with LF, I might have been ok with it. So no, it’s not all I wanted but it would’ve been better than what it turned out to be. Of course I wanted more with LO. I still want more but it’s probably never going to be.
You know, like Sabrina inviting me to come up backstage after her show for coffee..
☕☕
MJ,
“Where she stood her ground and liked having the upper hand, along with the attention. (Orbiting) ”
That’s why I posted that video. It’s P Control. It’s not a nice thing to do, but it’s not reasonable to expect people who aren’t that invested in us (they’re not our moms or our SOs, for example) to put our needs before theirs. Or even really think about our needs.
“Women know within 5 minutes of meeting a guy, whether or not they’re going to sleep with him and so a lot of it rests on their call. ”
If you’re asking me personally, I’d say a few seconds. If it’s a definite yes. But isn’t this also true of most men? You’re attracted or you’re not?
Now, I don’t think this is true of ALL women. Or even all men. Some people … their attraction can grow over time.
And sometimes, even for me, it can be a maybe.
Yes, women are the gatekeepers to sex, but men are the gatekeepers to commitment. It’s a cliche, but its very, very true. So each side holds some of the cards. Some of the power.
“You’ve often stated it yourself. That the person being sought-after will show interest, if the interest is actually there. ”
Yes, and if the woman likes you and wants you to ask her out, for example, she’ll help you out. She’ll do something to give you an opening.
“Haven’t you ever heard the joke phrase, “no means yes?””
Well, the joke is actually … no means yes, and yes means an*l. I’m sorry. I think that’s funny. 🙂
” LO turned into this fantastical human, who to this day is like my perfect dream Girl. Even though I don’t know her or have ever really met her, all I see is someone who “looks” like she could be my everything.”
I’ve mentioned this before, but … I don’t think you want a girlfriend or a relationship. I think you want the fantasy.
“You know, like Sabrina inviting me to come up backstage after her show for coffee..
☕☕”
You just want to pull her hair. 🙂 One of the things I like about her is that she looks normal. She has a great figure, but she doesn’t look cosmetically enhanced with a fake butt or triple G chest.
“You just want to pull her hair. 🙂”
Marcia
Yes!! This hair!! 😍🥰
https://whereisthebuzz.com/sabrina-carpenters-final-album-cover-just-shut-down-the-haters-and-it-comes-with-a-new-song/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=sabrina-carpenters-final-album-cover-just-shut-down-the-haters-and-it-comes-with-a-new-song
Yes I did buy all those flowers for her too. 😆
Adam,
“LO picks us. And they know it.”
What do you think your LO did to pick you, and why did she do it? My interest comes from the fact you’ve made it sound there like you think it was a calculated move on her part.
Or do you just mean a more innocent version … that we have little control over who our glimmer lands on?
Marcia,
“I was definitely attracted to him when I met him. I’d say that his confirming his interest months later made things go off into what I’d say was close to limerence”
That was my experience too. As I told you, the initial attraction was there years before. But it was when she changed her behaviours (became *much* more attentive) that it all kicked up.
Now, that change wasn’t confirmation of interest like you had from your guy. It might even have happened more like for the reasons the woman in your video link gave. But it was a change all the same.
My bigger point is that I believe attraction will just simmer along at a lower level until the person gives *some* signs back. It is once you have those signs that you (plural) have a red flag for limerence. Sometimes we invent the signs, more often they are there somehow, but are inconclusive.
LaR,
“It might even have happened more like for the reasons the woman in your video link gave.”
I’m not following you. In the video, the woman has said no to going on a date or said no to being interested. And then she exhibits flirtatious behavior after saying she’s not interested to get attention or because she thinks the guy has lost interest. Not because she’s interested.
Marcia,
“I’m not following you.”
Shock horror 🙂🙂
I meant – sometimes the LO/potential LO will give ‘signs’ purely because they like the limerent’s attention and all the benefits that gives them, *without* the wish or need to get into a relationship with them.
That attention *can* be an attractive package for an LO, even if they have no interest in romance. They want to hold onto the attention (the LO is a Sensor in DrL’s terms). That’s what I thought the woman in the video was getting at.
The limerent then mistakes it for more.
I think it’s quite a common scenario from stories I’ve read on here.
LaR,
” That’s what I thought the woman in the video was getting at.”
The title of the video is “Getting mixed signals after being rejected.” The key word is “rejected.”
“I think it’s quite a common scenario from stories I’ve read on here.”
It isn’t because both people in the video (I’m assuming) are single. The man who is asking for advice writes to the coach in the video, “I told a friend I had feelings for her but the feelings weren’t mutual.”
It reminded me of MJ’s situation. He asked LF to do something (which is admitting interest/feelings) and she was vague and non-committal. I would have taken that as a no. Using the exact message from the video … MJ threw the ball at LF, who did not pick it up.
Now, on this site, most limerents aren’t disclosing. So there’s no specific rejection. The LO isn’t that direct and neither is the limerent.
But, yes, there may be LOs who just want the attention, as the woman in the video did.
Marcia,
Yeah fair enough – I got carried away with bits of the dating coach’s reply and missed that pretty crucial detail.
I think to exhibit those behaviours after rejecting someone who did “throw the ball” is a lot more unkind than in the type of scenario I was on about. But the limerent has it in their power to choose to accept the initial ‘no’, not stay orbiting, and so choose not to either encourage or accept the follow up mixed-signals behaviour.
LaR
Because I was bitter and resentful and, at the risk of raising Cloud’s ire, not sober when I wrote that.
The new gal we hired in accounting (the location LO worked at) Monday called me to ask me a question Friday. And she finished the conversation with “I hope I can live up to [LOs name] expectations. Everyone says she’s your favorite.”
I still believe she never manipulated or used me. Well at least sober me thinks that. But then again “a drunk man’s words are a sober man’s thoughts.”
Gotta get back to ironing. Can’t go to church without looking proper. *mumbles*though plenty of people do*mumbles*
Adam,
You just rock your own ‘proper’ look for church and don’t worry about the rest of them, Ok. By the way, have you got that monocle yet? 🧐
“a drunk man’s words are a sober man’s thoughts.”
I believe that too, and that’s why you shouldn’t row back on what you said unless you really want to.
I think a lot of LOs enjoy the attention we give them, without asking for the ‘status’ we give them. But I think we limerents are primed for an LE if the conditions in our life line up, and then it will be the next person who comes along that ticks certain boxes becomes our LO. That’s an idea broadly from Fenna in her recent video with DrL.
But I was interested when you said ‘she chose me’ – as to what she actually did to make it look like it was a choice she made. It’s not a criticism – I often wonder similar things about how my LE started and how much encouragement of that there was from the other side.
Marcia,
“Yeah fair enough – I got carried away with bits of the dating coach’s reply and missed that pretty crucial detail.”
Yes. 🙂 Because all you read was “mixed signals.” Which are irrelevant if someone said no. Even if it was a soft no.
“I think to exhibit those behaviours after rejecting someone who did “throw the ball” is a lot more unkind than in the type of scenario I was on about.”
I would agree it’s selfish. But apparently you didn’t look up P***y Control in the Urban Dictionary! You did not do your homework! “When a woman has the sexual control. She resists the advances of men unless it is to her advantage.”
Now … what I think you are referring to … my last big LO was doing. Getting all the feelz and validation with no intention of following through. Is that D**k Control? Do partnered LOs exhibit D Control? For that matter, do partnered limerents? Maybe not D Control (as the LO has control) but do they attempt D Danglage? (Sorry. I’m having a little fun with this. :))
“But the limerent has it in their power to choose to accept the initial ‘no’, not stay orbiting, and so choose not to either encourage or accept the follow up mixed-signals behaviour.”
Exactly.
But her advice about what the guy who sought advice should do next is spot on … don’t give your female friend the benefits of being a boyfriend if she doesn’t want you as her boyfriend. Back away from the friendship. What this woman wants is the female equivalent of an fwb, where the guy gets the benefits of girlfriend without committing.
Another point the coach in the video doesn’t bring up … don’t become friends with a woman in hopes you can eventually date her. You’re putting yourself in the friend zone/orbiting role.
LaR,
“But I think we limerents are primed for an LE if the conditions in our life line up, and then it will be the next person who comes along that ticks certain boxes becomes our LO. That’s an idea broadly from Fenna in her recent video with DrL.”
For me, personally … I think I have to be in a certain place in life. Mentally/emotionally/psychologically. For example, a period of transition is often cited as a prime time for an LE to develop.
Second, the LO himself has to ding certain bells. He’s my type physically and/or personality-wise. Thirdly, there has to be some perceived or validated level of reciprocation. And fourthly … the big one … barriers. Which don’t necessarily have to be that the person has an SO. Could be emotionally unavailable or showing half-interest.
Marcia,
“… irrelevant if someone said no. Even if it was a soft no.”
To agree on that, we’d have to pin down what we mean by a ‘soft no’. I think it has to involve the word ‘no’ and it needs to not be ‘not for now’. That and other variants of it can easily be taken like ‘…but maybe later’.
“(…Sorry. I’m having a little fun with this. :))”
That bit made me laugh. I think a lot of people enjoy that kind of scenario, regardless of gender, limerent tribe or not, attached or not. That major xLO of mine (10 glimmer one) had that P control – even after she gave me a soft rejection. But here’s the thing – I let her. We both knew what was going on and it became borderline amusing. Like I said earlier, the limerent can choose whether or not they let it continue. I had no expectations of it after the soft no, but I still liked the banter.
“don’t give your female friend the benefits of being a boyfriend if she doesn’t want you as her boyfriend. Back away from the friendship. What this woman wants is the female equivalent of an fwb, where the guy gets the benefits of girlfriend without committing.”
Again, both are complicit if that happens.
“don’t become friends with a woman in hopes you can eventually date her. You’re putting yourself in the friend zone/orbiting role.”
I know you won’t agree with this and it is different to how you would feel and act in the situation. But it’s the same drum I have banged since the day I turned up here. Given the choice between a friendship with an LO or nothing, I’m not the only one who’d say ‘I’d take the friendship’. It’s a risk we take, and we know it can blow up. And my caveat is that both have to be OK with it. If the LO seems in any way uncomfortable with the friendship, the limerent should back off (or ‘fess up).
LaR,
“To agree on that, we’d have to pin down what we mean by a ‘soft no’. I think it has to involve the word ‘no’ and it needs to not be ‘not for now’. That and other variants of it can easily be taken like ‘…but maybe later’.”
Don’t agree. People read more into “not now” because they WANT to. Come on. Some women asks you out who you really like and you tell her, “Not now”? Not for a minute. You’d go on that date. Anything less than someone showing up on that date in a reasonable time frame is a no. You want to know if someone is interested? They show up.
“That bit made me laugh. I think a lot of people enjoy that kind of scenario, regardless of gender, limerent tribe or not, attached or not.”
I enjoy it if it’s not someone I’m taking seriously.
“I had no expectations of it after the soft no, but I still liked the banter.”
I don’t understand that. My LO said no to doing more physically and I NEVER stopped hoping he’d change his mind. I never got comfortable with the continued flirtation enough to just enjoy it. I always wanted more.
“Again, both are complicit if that happens.”
So why do both people have responsibility in this scenario and not in the “soft no” scenario? Isn’t this scenario worse? The guy is actually sleeping with the woman, and he knows she wants more.
“Given the choice between a friendship with an LO or nothing, I’m not the only one who’d say ‘I’d take the friendship’.”
But weren’t you already friends and then you became limerent? I’m talking about someone who knows they have feelings and befriends the person because maybe they sense the other person doesn’t feel the same but hopes they might change their mind in time. That hanging around in the friend zone might bide them some time to change the other person’s mind/feelings.
” It’s a risk we take, and we know it can blow up. ”
Well, very few posters on this site disclose or make a move , so how would it blow up? What risk are you taking? That’s a little dramatic, isn’t it? 🙂
“And my caveat is that both have to be OK with it. If the LO seems in any way uncomfortable with the friendship, the limerent should back off (or ‘fess up).”
And how would you know the LO is ok? No one discusses anything.
Marcia,
“Come on. Some women asks you out who you really like and you tell her, “Not now”? Not for a minute. You’d go on that date ”
Your way of putting things straight amuses me! But to get back to what I meant, it is quite often put in a more cryptic way than ‘not now’ in as many words. Like people will say something about not being over their ex or having ‘stuff going on at the moment’. They make it sound like ‘it’s not you, it’s me’. When what they mean is ‘it’s you – I am not interested’. I get why they do it – to save face for the other person. They think they’re being kind for not giving a blunt no, but this is why I think the misinterpretations into ‘not now’ happen.
“I don’t understand that. My LO said no to doing more physically and I NEVER stopped hoping he’d change his mind. I never got comfortable with the continued flirtation enough to just enjoy it. I always wanted more.”
I tried to think more about xLO and whether I was honest about that in my previous post. It was a long time ago now. She was work based, with me in a position of power there. So it was quite an interesting dynamic how she tried to use the Control part to ‘flip’ the power. Maybe for a while I did still hope the banter would lead to more (the initial no was a very soft one). Then I got into the honeymoon bit of a relationship with someone else and it was at that point that the banter with xLO just became amusing and of no real consequence.
“So why do both people have responsibility in this scenario and not in the “soft no” scenario? Isn’t this scenario worse? The guy is actually sleeping with the woman, and he knows she wants more.”
I thought the scenario we were talking about here is where the woman wants a fwb without committing to anything more, and the guy gives her that? (= my ‘both complicit’)
“I’m talking about someone who knows they have feelings and befriends the person because maybe they sense the other person doesn’t feel the same but hopes they might change their mind in time.”
But maybe the sense here is not as cut and dried as you say … maybe they sense something that they see (even if wrongly) as potential interest, and feel like exploring it by being friendly towards the person? I think I know how you’ll answer this …
“That hanging around in the friend zone might bide them some time to change the other person’s mind/feelings.”
People usually know that’s futile but it rarely stops them trying. I believe there is a difference between entering a friendship with someone to assess potential (ok), and hanging around in it forever, if the hanging around is ‘in hope of more’ (not ok).
“How would it blow up? What risk are you taking? That’s a little dramatic, isn’t it? 🙂”
That comment was more about the partnered person (ie like in my position) keeping such a ‘friendship’ with their LO. I think it’s obvious how that could blow up in different ways.
“And how would you know the LO is ok? No one discusses anything.”
The context there was a point about where the two are in a friendship. People can usually read the room within a friendship, to get a pretty good idea if the other person is comfortable there or not.
LaR,
“Like people will say something about not being over their ex or having ‘stuff going on at the moment’. They make it sound like ‘it’s not you, it’s me’. When what they mean is ‘it’s you – I am not interested’. ”
I mean, it’s possible they are telling the truth. That it is about them. But it still means no, and I don’t think an explanation/excuse is necessary. You don’t have to give someone a reason. Ultimately, “Thanks for asking but I don’t care to go” is the best thing to say. But do you know how hard that is to say? I have said it but I usually say I am dating someone.
“I get why they do it – to save face for the other person. They think they’re being kind for not giving a blunt no, but this is why I think the misinterpretations into ‘not now’ happen.”
Well, it’s often because it’s so frigging uncomfortable. Have you ever been asked out by someone face-to-face and you weren’t expecting it and you’re struggling to give a response? You feel like you’re been put on the spot. Like your innards are clenched. And, no, you don’t want to be mean.
“So it was quite an interesting dynamic how she tried to use the Control part to ‘flip’ the power. ”
Oh, I like that. That’s interesting. And you dug it, didn’t you? 🙂
“Then I got into the honeymoon bit of a relationship with someone else and it was at that point that the banter with xLO just became amusing and of no real consequence.”
Ok. Gotcha.
“I thought the scenario we were talking about here is where the woman wants a fwb without committing to anything more, and the guy gives her that? (= my ‘both complicit’)”
No, the flip of that. P Control is the woman holding power by withholding sex. But the fwb is the woman wanting more and the guy not wanting commitment. In this scenario, the man has the power. Women control sex; men control commitment.
“But maybe the sense here is not as cut and dried as you say … maybe they sense something that they see (even if wrongly) as potential interest, and feel like exploring it by being friendly towards the person? I think I know how you’ll answer this …”
I’m just going to come out and say it. If a man hovers/circles around a woman and she senses he likes her and isn’t making a move, she’ll see him as passive. Or think he just wants to be friends. And there does come a point where too much time has passed and it’s too late. You’re going to ask what the time frame is. I can’t answer that, as there are a million different factors that could go into it.
” I believe there is a difference between entering a friendship with someone to assess potential (ok), and hanging around in it forever, if the hanging around is ‘in hope of more’ (not ok).”
It’s the same. If you want to be more than friends … carpe diem.
“That comment was more about the partnered person (ie like in my position) keeping such a ‘friendship’ with their LO. I think it’s obvious how that could blow up in different ways.”
I knew what you were referring to. I still don’t know what could blow up as neither you nor your LO are disclosing/making any moves. This is the case for most limerent situations on this forum. (Before I get yelled at, I’m not saying that either party should disclose/make a move. :))
“People can usually read the room within a friendship, to get a pretty good idea if the other person is comfortable there or not.”
How do you know your LO isn’t hoping for more? Posters always write about how their LO is dangling themselves. Isn’t the limerent as well?
Marcia,
“But do you know how hard that is to say? I have said it but I usually say I am dating someone.”
Yeah, I do get that. I just also think that these things contribute to ‘no’ being heard as ‘not now’. I’m not saying that’s right on the part of the message receiver, just saying I think it’s what happens a lot.
“Have you ever been asked out by someone face-to-face and you weren’t expecting it and you’re struggling to give a response? You feel like you’re been put on the spot. Like your innards are clenched. And, no, you don’t want to be mean.”
Not quite. The worst thing like that I’ve been on the receiving end of is being set up for a (blind) double date, and then realising within seconds that I wouldn’t be interested. It was cringe trying to get through that.
[“So it was quite an interesting dynamic how she tried to use the Control part to ‘flip’ the power. ”]
“Oh, I like that. That’s interesting. And you dug it, didn’t you? 🙂”
Of course … I’ll just say this. Work is quite a boring activity that we have to spend quite a lot of our lives doing. Something like that, that adds a bit of intrigue, is usually good! (until it isn’t).
“But the fwb is the woman wanting more and the guy not wanting commitment. In this scenario, the man has the power. Women control sex; men control commitment.”
So in that one, both are still complicit if they let it keep running along for ages at a level that’s not good for at least one of them. The more commital person could talk it out with the other, or could get out if they’re not happy. The only reason I’d argue otherwise is if the less commital person lied or future-faked the more commital one when getting into it – i.e. if the goalposts were moved.
[I think I know how you’ll answer this …”]
“I’m just going to come out and say it.”
That’s what I thought you’d say. I appreciate we can’t lay down a ‘correct in every case’ time frame on it. The coming out and saying it very directly does risk what you said above – one of those awkward innard-clenching moments. But then people go too far the other way and dance around it forever. To ask someone directly out on a date without making it a face-threatening moment for both people, is something that I (in the days when I was in the market) found very difficult. I think many people feel that nurturing it as a friendship for a while first is better. But for sure – eventually that puts you in an inescapable friend zone with them.
“I knew what you were referring to. I still don’t know what could blow up as neither you nor your LO are disclosing/making any moves. This is the case for most limerent situations on this forum.” Certainly mine has moved many miles past that danger zone now, into inaction / friendzone / slow death of the LE. There was, though, a stage when I felt I might fold and disclose at any point. My LO is a very moral person. I would not have completely put it past her, had I disclosed, to say “either you tell your SO, or I will”. There are so many good reasons not to disclose in that situation.
“How do you know your LO isn’t hoping for more?”
I don’t, for sure. In the entire history of the relationship with her, we have never both been single at the same time, so it has never passed that acid test. It’s only a best guess based on the vibes I get from her nowadays.
“Posters always write about how their LO is dangling themselves. Isn’t the limerent as well?”
Usually dangling, but just out of reach. And yes, I know that’s wrong from a moral standpoint. These things can feel more complicated / when you’re right in the thick of them, or maybe we just want to make them complicated?
LaR,
” I’m not saying that’s right on the part of the message receiver, just saying I think it’s what happens a lot.”
I’m sure it happens a lot. I witnessed it. A guy asked out a friend of mine and when she gave him one of those “not now” answers, he pressed for what that meant. It was painful and cringey. No, she wasn’t clear, but he wouldn’t drop it.
” The worst thing like that I’ve been on the receiving end of is being set up for a (blind) double date, and then realising within seconds that I wouldn’t be interested. It was cringe trying to get through that.”
I had one of those. I wouldn’t say it was cringe to get through it. We had a decent enough dinner, but I knew immediately it was a mismatch. I was more irritated at the mutual friend who set us up. I wanted to ask her, “Have you met me?”
” I’ll just say this. Work is quite a boring activity that we have to spend quite a lot of our lives doing. Something like that, that adds a bit of intrigue, is usually good! (until it isn’t).”
It is SOOO boring. I think that’s why I’ve met most of my LOs at work.
“So in that one, both are still complicit if they let it keep running along for ages at a level that’s not good for at least one of them. ”
So it’s not abhorrent behavior to continue along with an fwb if you know the other person wants more and has feelings … but the sex is convenient for you and you’re not going to say no? You think that’s on the level of saying “not now” to turn a date down? I don’t think they even compare.
“To ask someone directly out on a date without making it a face-threatening moment for both people, is something that I (in the days when I was in the market) found very difficult.”
Can’t you tell when someone wants you to ask her out? I realize within the last few years that work and social environments have changed. People don’t flirt and talk like they used to. But back in the day … you couldn’t tell?
” I think many people feel that nurturing it as a friendship for a while first is better. But for sure – eventually that puts you in an inescapable friend zone with them.”
You’re in the friend zone if you’re nurturing a friendship. And the problem with this approach is … well, so you become friends. But are you friends or are you FRIENDS? I’m not sure this approach is any more effective for determining interest than asking somebody out pretty quickly after meeting them.
“Certainly mine has moved many miles past that danger zone now, into inaction / friendzone / slow death of the LE. There was, though, a stage when I felt I might fold and disclose at any point. My LO is a very moral person. I would not have completely put it past her, had I disclosed, to say “either you tell your SO, or I will”. There are so many good reasons not to disclose in that situation.”
So this kind of feels like I’ve been watching a tv show and in the season finale, the writers throw in some curveball/last minute save to wrap up some big plot detail but it wasn’t even hinted at in the earlier episodes and the viewer thinks: Huh? Where did that come from? Like … oh wait. The protagonist inherits a bunch of money from a great, great aunt he didn’t know about who lived in Siberia. And he’s saved from ruin! If you honestly thought she would tell your SO, why were you even thinking of disclosing at all? And why didn’t you mention this before? And, honestly, why are you friends? I wouldn’t trust someone who would do that.
“These things can feel more complicated / when you’re right in the thick of them, or maybe we just want to make them complicated?”
I think the latter. I’m really starting to think that most limerents just want the internal drama/internal conflict. Look at Vicarious’ recent post. (I’m not picking on him. Just using it as an example.) He was told by a friend that some other woman is really into him. And he didn’t like being told because it took away from the mystery of being unsure about the attraction. I do not understand that at all. Even if you’re not interested, it’s still flattering. And if you are interested … omg, it’s a moment like no other. You will not forget it. It’s absolutely delicious.
It’s not that I didn’t like having a woman say she was attracted to me. It was a nice boost to the ego, and it did happen in the past that I didn’t really notice someone until she started flirting with me. I wasn’t that into LO #2 until she got a little flirty with me soon after meeting her. The difference with LO #2 and this new lady is that LO #2 was a lot more subtle about it, and it was usually cloaked in plausible deniability with her. I absolutely like women being interested in me, and it is a massive stroke to my ego, but it just doesn’t usually end up in limerence for me. Some sort of mystery or uncertainty is usually required for me to become limerent for someone. Liking someone and being attracted to them is totally different from being limerent for them. It’s a totally different thing altogether.
“I was more irritated at the mutual friend who set us up. I wanted to ask her, “Have you met me?”
Same with my one. I raged at the guy afterwards who set it up.
“It is SOOO boring. I think that’s why I’ve met most of my LOs at work.”
3 out of 4 of my major LOs were from work, the other at college. And my two longest term SOs – the first I met at work, my SO now tangentially through work.
[“So in that one, both are still complicit if they let it keep running along for ages at a level that’s not good for at least one of them.”]
“So it’s not abhorrent behavior to continue along with an fwb if you know the other person wants more and has feelings … but the sex is convenient for you and you’re not going to say no?”
I mean – it’s not good behaviour. In this hypothetical example, are the feelings out on the table and being discussed between the two? I think my assessment of the man’s behaviour is worse if he knows that the woman has feelings and a want for more. My original point, that I’d stand by, is that either party has it in their power to walk away. But that gets much more difficult if the man is future-faking her about possibly being willing to give more at some point.
“You think that’s on the level of saying “not now” to turn a date down? I don’t think they even compare.”
No, I don’t try to say they are same-level. It took a few back and forths for me to get what you were asking me, so that was not meant to come across.
“Can’t you tell when someone wants you to ask her out? I realize within the last few years that work and social environments have changed. People don’t flirt and talk like they used to. But back in the day … you couldn’t tell?”
I have told you this before, but not really when I was younger – it was probably to do with lack of confidence. Through most of my 20s I was in an LTR. After that, I got better at telling, but I haven’t been in the marketplace a lot since then. My SO is a good example though of where I was decisive about asking her out and didn’t second guess it or orbit her.
“But are you friends or are you FRIENDS?”
That’s a minefield (one for L.E. there 🙂)
“The protagonist inherits a bunch of money from a great, great aunt he didn’t know about who lived in Siberia. And he’s saved from ruin!”
Lol
“If you honestly thought she would tell your SO, why were you even thinking of disclosing at all?”
First – ‘why was I thinking of disclosing at all?’ – you know this, but in the heights of an LE, the limerent is just dying to know if their feelings are reciprocated. I’d liken how it was to a kettle that I didn’t completely trust not to over-boil any day. Sometimes it felt like – where else to go with the feelings when they drove me mad, other than disclose? I still never did it, because I thought of the bigger-picture and how selfish an act it would be – but that’s how it felt.
I’m not sure she’d tell SO, but she might push me to. She has talked to me quite a few times about her experiences of being propositioned to cheat by men in relationships, and about friends of hers who are cheating. She always expresses contempt for the cheating and (if it is the man cheating) her first thought is with the woman. And also, she knows my SO is a decent person. All of that might have been partly to warn me off from disclosing or trying anything. Like I say, I leaked like a sieve. I know you say I leave a lot of pieces to be fitted together, but I think she will have fitted them at some point.
“And why didn’t you mention this before?”
I have, at least in a roundabout way, but perhaps more in chats with others than with you. I’ve said she is very moral and ‘girl code’.
“And, honestly, why are you friends?”
Her moral compass is quite an attractive feature, to the more sensible side of me anyway. To give many details would be too revealing, but she has done things for me as a friend that very few people ever would or have done. She has consistently had my back through some difficult times I’ve had, in and out of work. And this had held true for many years before it became an LE. Not many friends come along in life who possess those qualities. It’s my bad that my mind started to put her in another place from the great friend she was and is, but it doesn’t invalidate all she has done for me and been to me.
“I’m really starting to think that most limerents just want the internal drama/internal conflict.”
I struggle with that, somehow. You know as well as I do how painful an LE can feel – like how much you wanted rid of your major LO but he just hung around in your brain. Why would we want that for ourselves?
“And if you are interested … omg, it’s a moment like no other. You will not forget it. It’s absolutely delicious.”
I remember it well. I have only heard it once from an LO – the one that ended with the clean ‘mutual disclose and NC’ – but it was great at the time.
Vicarious,
“Some sort of mystery or uncertainty is usually required fobor me to become limerent for someone.”
I get it. I read your other posts. 🙂
But I’m giving you the flip side of that. Perhaps a single woman’s perspective as this woman who likes you is single and so am I. And your LOs were. With my last big LO, the uncertainty wasn’t … Is he attracted to me? He was very obvious. It was … what’s he going to do about it?
“was a lot more subtle about it, and it was usually cloaked in plausible deniability with her. ”
Blech. Plausible deniability. No, thanks. 🙂
LaR
“Same with my one. I raged at the guy afterwards who set it up.”
In my case, the guy didn’t ask me out again. He could read the room even if our mutual friend couldn’t!
“3 out of 4 of my major LOs were from work, the other at college. And my two longest term SOs – the first I met at work, my SO now tangentially through work.”
Me, too. Work or school. It’s because we spend so much damn time at both.
“I mean – it’s not good behaviour. In this hypothetical example, are the feelings out on the table and being discussed between the two?”
I’ve only had one long-term fwb. An LO. And I’m sure he knew that I had feelings.
“My original point, that I’d stand by, is that either party has it in their power to walk away. ”
Yes. Of course. But do we not have any responsibility to the other person?
“I have told you this before, but not really when I was younger – it was probably to do with lack of confidence. Through most of my 20s I was in an LTR. After that, I got better at telling, but I haven’t been in the marketplace a lot since then. ”
I was terrible at reading the signs in my 20s, too. I think I’m pretty good now … just when I don’t need the skill because the atmosphere is so dry! Arid! People are afraid to interact with each other on any kind of man-woman level.
“My SO is a good example though of where I was decisive about asking her out and didn’t second guess it or orbit her.”
What made her different?
“First – ‘why was I thinking of disclosing at all?’ – you know this, but in the heights of an LE, the limerent is just dying to know if their feelings are reciprocated.”
I guess I just don’t understand it because even if you found out the feelings were reciprocated … you didn’t intend to do anything about it, anyway. I can speak as one of the few single women on here (and your LO is single) … what am I supposed to do with some guy telling me he’s into me? What am I supposed to do with that information?
” I’ve said she is very moral and ‘girl code’.”
I get the girl code stuff. Most of my closest friends have been women (or gay men). But .. .let’s be honest … no one will ditch you faster than a female friend who finds a man. So the girl code stuff doesn’t make a lot of sense to me sometimes.
“She has consistently had my back through some difficult times I’ve had, in and out of work. And this had held true for many years before it became an LE. Not many friends come along in life who possess those qualities.”
That’s very true. Consistency being the key. To find that in an adult friendship is very rare.
” like how much you wanted rid of your major LO but he just hung around in your brain. Why would we want that for ourselves?”
Are you talking to me, personally, about my last big LO? I didn’t want him to hang around in my brain. I wanted to have an affair with him. He put the kibosh on that. Obviously, me hanging around hoping he’d change his mind was my refusal to accept reality.
“I remember it well. I have only heard it once from an LO – the one that ended with the clean ‘mutual disclose and NC’ – but it was great at the time.”
That email from LO-lite … probably one of the hottest emails I’ve ever gotten. It makes me sad. Will I ever get another? Or does the Universe only dole out so many per person, per lifetime?
“In my case, the guy didn’t ask me out again. He could read the room even if our mutual friend couldn’t!”
My friend talks of a bad date he was set up on where he ended up throwing popcorn around in a cinema (not a euphemism). He was exaggerating – but I think we deliberately don’t showcase our best sides in these situations!
[“I mean – it’s not good behaviour. In this hypothetical example, are the feelings out on the table and being discussed between the two?”]
“I’ve only had one long-term fwb. An LO. And I’m sure he knew that I had feelings”
Ah – now I know that it was an LO, that changes it a bit. He was married/ partnered right? Did he ever future-fake you that your relationship could become more than fwb? Because that’s where I think it gets really wrong – if he knows you have feelings and does enough to hint that your fwb could become more in future – D dangling as you put it.
“But do we not have any responsibility to the other person?”
We do. Nobody should feel OK with screwing another person up. I’ve seen it happen and it is not funny.
“People are afraid to interact with each other on any kind of man-woman level.”
It’s a big worry for the future, that society has sort of wished upon itself. I think 40+ people know the former ways, and are still capable of acting in them. Just not in workplaces where they have about a million guardrails up.
[“My SO is a good example though of where I was decisive about asking her out and didn’t second guess it or orbit her.”]
“What made her different?”
I was very attracted to her looks. After a few initial brief but nice chats, there was a chance I wouldn’t see her again. That fact might have helped me – to NOT be complacent end up in the friendzone. Also – I’d managed to flip a lifelong script in my head by then. I saw the regret of not trying and not knowing, as worse than the possibility of rejection.
“even if you found out the feelings were reciprocated … you didn’t intend to do anything about it, anyway … what am I supposed to do with some guy telling me he’s into me? What am I supposed to do with that information?”
That doesn’t fix an overboiling kettle … but I get it. Like, really get it. And that thought process was how I stopped myself disclosing, time after time after time.
“So the girl code stuff doesn’t make a lot of sense to me sometimes.”
I don’t really understand female-female friendships 😵💫 So much behaviour within them doesn’t make sense. One minute the best friend in the world, the next tearing chunks out of each other. It just doesn’t happen like that with male-male friendships (we just talk about sports!).
[“Not many friends come along in life who possess those qualities.”]
“That’s very true. Consistency being the key. To find that in an adult friendship is very rare.”
This is why my process of getting out of the LE has to be different than the one most limerents take. There is something and someone I deem well worth protecting at the core of it.
”Why would we want that for ourselves?”
“I didn’t want him to hang around in my brain. I wanted to have an affair with him. He put the kibosh on that. Obviously, me hanging around hoping he’d change his mind was my refusal to accept reality.”
The context of this was you saying that you thought limerents wanted the drama. So having been through that – or any other LE example you can find among the stories on this blog – why would we wish to get involved in drama like that again?
“That email from LO-lite … probably one of the hottest emails I’ve ever gotten.”
I hear you 🙂
“It makes me sad. Will I ever get another? Or does the Universe only dole out so many per person, per lifetime”
Like ‘here you are Madam, your fifth stamp on your loyalty card, congratulations! Next one free!’
If you can get one at this point, why not another? Sometimes chance and luck play in our favour. Never say never.
LaR,
“My friend talks of a bad date he was set up on where he ended up throwing popcorn around in a cinema (not a euphemism). He was exaggerating – but I think we deliberately don’t showcase our best sides in these situations!”
Why not leave? Why not end the date? I have done that. Cut things short. It’s very rare, but I have done it. Wouldn’t you prefer a woman do that than be out with you and not want to be there?
” He was married/ partnered right?”
Is that supposed to be funny? No, he was single.
“Did he ever future-fake you that your relationship could become more than fwb? ”
No. He was very clear — painfully clear — that things were casual. He was an LO. Do you think he had to lie to me to get me into bed? 🙂
“Because that’s where I think it gets really wrong ”
I still think it’s wrong to hook up with someone over and over again who you know has feelings for you. And you know it’s causing them pain.
“Nobody should feel OK with screwing another person up. I’ve seen it happen and it is not funny.”
And it did really screw me up. At the time. I’ll cut him SOME slack because we were young. But he did some things that were outright cruel. Is cruelty something you grow out of or is that a permanent character flaw?
“Just not in workplaces where they have about a million guardrails up.”
It’s the same vibe in these meetups I go to. Very, very rarely is their a shred of flirtation or sexual energy. AND NO, NOT EVERYONE IS PARTNERED. 🙂
“After a few initial brief but nice chats, there was a chance I wouldn’t see her again.”
This was one of the scenarios where I was going to suggest that you have to make a move pretty quickly. If that isn’t the case and you’ll be seeing the person regularly, you can take time to develop a rapport and gauge interest … but that’s tricky because … too much time veers into orbiting.
” One minute the best friend in the world, the next tearing chunks out of each other. It just doesn’t happen like that with male-male friendships (we just talk about sports!).”
It sounds like there’s no depth to male friendships. Whereas female friends can be like sisters. They know everything about you and vice versa. Sharing excruciating detail. 🙂
“There is something and someone I deem well worth protecting at the core of it.”
I get that, but … friendships end. You’ve heard that expression, right? Friends come and go, but family is forever. I wish it wasn’t so, but it is. People move away, get married, have kids, etc. Or sometimes a once-close friendship morphs into something much less close. It’s very common. Is it possible you’re putting so much value on this friendship because of the LE?
“The context of this was you saying that you thought limerents wanted the drama. So having been through that – or any other LE example you can find among the stories on this blog – why would we wish to get involved in drama like that again?”
Well, first of all, as a general rule, the drama is in the limerent’s head. Does it still count if the drama doesn’t move from the mental to the physical realm? As in … nothing really happens. There’s no guarantee the LO even knows about the limerent’s feelings.
But to answer your question … it’s a time to feel alive. To live intensely. But … is the pain worth the sliver of time that things go well? Because the pain lasts a LOT longer than the positive phase of the LE.
[“That email from LO-lite … probably one of the hottest emails I’ve ever gotten.”]
“I hear you 🙂”
So for that LO with whom I had the fwb … I don’t mean to make it sound all bad. There were some moments that definitely made it onto the greatest hits reel that plays in my head. 🙂 I don’t mean just sex but some of the things he said and did.
“If you can get one at this point, why not another? Sometimes chance and luck play in our favour. Never say never.”
Well, I’m not getting any younger. I feel like I’m running out of time.
Marcia,
“Wouldn’t you prefer a woman do that than be out with you and not want to be there?”
It would sting at the time, but yeah – better than stringing it out.
[“He was married/ partnered right?”]
“Is that supposed to be funny? No, he was single.”
No, I actually thought it was the case and stand corrected. I wouldn’t have tried to be funny about that point because a joke is only funny if both people can laugh at it.
[“Did he ever future-fake you that your relationship could become more than fwb? ”]
“No. He was very clear — painfully clear — that things were casual.”
Well, that’s better than the version where he future-faked. At least he was honest. But I can still see why it stung and why you look back and think he would have been kinder to pull away.
“But he did some things that were outright cruel. Is cruelty something you grow out of or is that a permanent character flaw?”
I’d like to think that as we get older, we get wiser and kinder. But it won’t apply to everyone.
“It’s the same vibe in these meetups I go to. Very, very rarely is their a shred of flirtation or sexual energy”
I believe you, but I find this strange. The state of the whole dating market now is a puzzle.
“It sounds like there’s no depth to male friendships.”
I’m being ironic in presenting male friendships as overly shallow. But there is truth in the point. It seems a bit different in younger men, but most older men don’t really do a lot of emotion in friendships.
“Whereas female friends can be like sisters. They know everything about you and vice versa. Sharing excruciating detail. 🙂”
But why does that veer so quickly into dramatic fallouts, or the sort of thing you mentioned earlier around ‘girl code’ just dissipating when a man comes into the picture? If the ‘sisterships’ were that strong, wouldn’t they be worth holding onto beyond a man?
“I get that, but … friendships end. You’ve heard that expression, right? … Or sometimes a once-close friendship morphs into something much less close. It’s very common. Is it possible you’re putting so much value on this friendship because of the LE?”
I think what we’re both saying can be true at the same time. Yes, what you suggest is possible. But it’s also possible that there is a lot there that’s worth it, even if you reduce the level down to account for the LE-effect. I’m not deluding myself that we’ll be BFF – I am open to the fact that life changes and people grow closer and further apart. But I also don’t feel inclined to hasten the demise of the friendship any more for now. I think it is already less strong than it was a year ago because I realised it couldn’t sustain like that.
“But to answer your question … it’s a time to feel alive. To live intensely. But … is the pain worth the sliver of time that things go well? Because the pain lasts a LOT longer than the positive phase of the LE.”
Fair point that the mental and physical realms are different. From what I have read on this site, most limerents who’ve been through an LE would agree – that the pain outweighs the gain in the end. So I’m trying to think why they’d wish that on themselves again. Even though I’m one of the most positive about my LE/LO – I would not want to go through it again and will take active steps to avoid that. But I guess it’s hard to answer until another would-be LO lands in my path. The ‘time to feel alive’ part is quite intoxicating.
“There were some moments that definitely made it onto the greatest hits reel that plays in my head. 🙂”
And that’s why the pulling out of it is a two-sided coin, and we don’t always make ‘right’ decisions about it?
“Well, I’m not getting any younger. I feel like I’m running out of time”
I don’t really know how to answer this – I know getting older is a real fear. But you said something like that in the days before LO-lite too, so at least you have some proof from him and the recent younger date, that you’ve still got it to attract men.
Marcia,
“It would sting at the time, but yeah – better than stringing it out.”
Well, in this scenario, you’re both having a bad time.
Here are two questions:
1.) I used to post on this other blog and this one male poster wrote about how it was important to him that he was a good date. I don’t understand that. If you’re not interested in the woman, why do you care if you showed her a good time? So she can report back to her friends? I think there’s a way to be polite and pleasant without being overly engaging and entertaining (which could make the other person mistakenly believe you’re interested when you’re not). Thoughts?
2.) I was watching a video the other day on YouTube. Its message: Men date passionate and exciting but marry stable and peaceful. Thoughts?
“I wouldn’t have tried to be funny about that point because a joke is only funny if both people can laugh at it.”
Sorry. I thought you were being snarky, which you haven’t been before. So I was confused.
“Well, that’s better than the version where he future-faked. At least he was honest. ”
That’s what your side always gets away with saying. 🙂 “But, but, but … I was honest.” There’s that disclaimer! 🙂 (That’s only a half smiley face.)
“But I can still see why it stung and why you look back and think he would have been kinder to pull away.”
It’s probably not realistic to expect a young guy to turn down convenient sex.
“I’d like to think that as we get older, we get wiser and kinder. But it won’t apply to everyone.”
He would tell me about the other women he was hooking up with. And he knew it bothered me. That’s sadistic. So why did I put up with it? Well, I was young. But he ticked off a lot of boxes. I finally understood what all the fuss was all about. I think you know what I’m talking about. And he was confident and had a lot of game. So I knew, deep down, he was going to be hard to replace in terms of those things. And he was.
“The state of the whole dating market now is a puzzle.”
Well, the guy I went out with a couple of times was flirty. But I think that’s because we met on a dating site. We both knew it was a date. But at a meetup (and these are not singles meetups) … people may be afraid someone ISN’T there looking for a date. They don’t want to come across as creepy. Which on some level is good.
“It seems a bit different in younger men, but most older men don’t really do a lot of emotion in friendships.”
Do you you think that older men are only emotive with their partners? Is that too much to put on one person?
“But why does that veer so quickly into dramatic fallouts, ”
Because you’re so close. Thus the expectations are high. There also can be a weird, competitive dynamic that runs through the friendship.
“or the sort of thing you mentioned earlier around ‘girl code’ just dissipating when a man comes into the picture? ”
Ain’t no party like a sausage party. 🙂 And it makes sense … in the end … if we’re going to be a little dark here … who’s going to bury you? Who’s going to take care of your estate? It probably won’t a friend.
“If the ‘sisterships’ were that strong, wouldn’t they be worth holding onto beyond a man?”
See above.
“But it’s also possible that there is a lot there that’s worth it, even if you reduce the level down to account for the LE-effect.”
If you’d have asked me five or ten years ago, I would have been thinking more like you. But being ancient and having been through friendship changes so many times, I have reduced my expectations for it. I read somewhere that friendship is like the tide. Cheesy but true. It ebbs and flows. So I just don’t value it like I used to.
“But I also don’t feel inclined to hasten the demise of the friendship any more for now. ”
Yes … but because you are limerent and have an SO … one of those has to go. IMO. I know you don’t agree with me.
“Even though I’m one of the most positive about my LE/LO – I would not want to go through it again and will take active steps to avoid that. But I guess it’s hard to answer until another would-be LO lands in my path. ”
If you had asked me only a few months ago, I would have said I’d never want another LE. In fact, a couple of years ago, I met a potential LO at a social group and stopped going after about 2 sessions, not wanting to go down that path again. And the glimmer died. Completely. I was surprised. Weeks passed and I realized one day I hadn’t even thought about him. I’m not sure what happened with LO-lite. Do I regret it? I’m still too mired in it to know.
“And that’s why the pulling out of it is a two-sided coin, and we don’t always make ‘right’ decisions about it?”
There was no way I would have turned that down at that time in my life. And I think Vicarious hit on this … other guys couldn’t compare. The flip side of that was … a big part of it stunk (I’m talking about the LO from years ago).
“But you said something like that in the days before LO-lite too, so at least you have some proof from him and the recent younger date, that you’ve still got it to attract men.”
Yeah, but what does it mean now? I probably over value attraction because I feel it so rarely. Apparently, it means much less to your side. (I’m talking about LO-lite. The younger guy is still down to meet up .. but, you know, convenient sex.)
Marcia,
“this one male poster wrote about how it was important to him that he was a good date. I don’t understand that. If you’re not interested in the woman, why do you care if you showed her a good time? So she can report back to her friends? I think there’s a way to be polite and pleasant without being overly engaging and entertaining (which could make the other person mistakenly believe you’re interested when you’re not). Thoughts?”
Did he mean by ‘being a good date’, more than just ‘polite and pleasant’? Because like you say, that’s probably the decent way to go if there’s no spark – nobody going home feeling they had a terrible time, but still knowing it’s not going anywhere. But if he’s not interested, he’s not doing her any favours by going OTT in the name of making herself look good. And probably not doing himself any favours either.
“I was watching a video the other day on YouTube. Its message: Men date passionate and exciting but marry stable and peaceful. Thoughts?”
I’m probably the wrong person to ask as I have often got to commitment quickly with people I’ve dated. The thing is, you’ve got to date the person at length anyway, if you want to marry them? Nearly every relationship I ever had started passionate and exciting, it’s the holding onto that that is more tricky. But I also kind of think I know where you’re trying to get me to go with this!! And yes, as we discussed before, there is a certain kind of woman (characterised by most of my xLOs’ profiles) that I’d like to ‘date’ much more than I’d like to marry! I could make a good argument as to why, if you want.
“Sorry. I thought you were being snarky, which you haven’t been before. So I was confused.”
I genuinely wasn’t, there, for the reason I gave before – both have to find a joke funny. Where are we on snark more generally? I give and take snark with people I like in life, but I think it’s much harder here where all we have is writing, and no way of clarifying meaning in the moment. I can’t always tell with writing if something is a joke or serious. But nor should we censor the odd attempt to joke – it is best to ask if not sure.
“That’s what your side always gets away with saying. 🙂 “But, but, but … I was honest.” There’s that disclaimer! 🙂 (That’s only a half smiley face.)”
But surely that’s still better than being dishonest?
“He would tell me about the other women he was hooking up with. And he knew it bothered me. That’s sadistic.”
Yes it is sadistic.
“So why did I put up with it? Well, I was young. But he ticked off a lot of boxes. I finally understood what all the fuss was all about.”
We live and hope we learn. It is impossible to judge these historic things by the standards we have for ourselves decades later.
“But at a meetup (and these are not singles meetups) … people may be afraid someone ISN’T there looking for a date. They don’t want to come across as creepy. Which on some level is good.”
Yes, but like you’ve said before, there are ways and means of exploring these things and conveying interest without having to use creepy actions or words.
All those articles Snow posted about modern dating recently paint such a pessimistic picture.
“Do you you think that older men are only emotive with their partners? Is that too much to put on one person?”
Older generations like my parents, yeah definitely. At my age, some men are better – but I’ve got only a couple of male friends I could talk emotions with. And that is a lot to put on the partner (if of course the man doesn’t acquire female friends🤦♂️).
It’s quite sad, because I can see some of my male friends are going through a lot, but even though I’m open to emotional chat, when I try it with them, they clam up.
“Because you’re so close. Thus the expectations are high. There also can be a weird, competitive dynamic that runs through the friendship.”
I wonder why that is. Men are supposed to be the ones that ruin everything by being too competitive.
“in the end … if we’re going to be a little dark here … who’s going to bury you? Who’s going to take care of your estate? It probably won’t a friend.”
Yeah, it is dark, but you’re right. The pair-bonding drive is strong and explains what’s under so much of what we hear on this site.
[“But I also don’t feel inclined to hasten the demise of the friendship any more for now.”]
“Yes … but because you are limerent and have an SO … one of those has to go. IMO. I know you don’t agree with me.”
Yeah, that point is kind of at deadlock – I know where you’re at and you know where I’m at, and they’re different places. But I’m more open than I used to be that it could fade slowly to a much-reduced friendship, or maybe not one at all, one day – and that that might be the best idea. I’m just not there yet.
“If you had asked me only a few months ago, I would have said I’d never want another LE … I’m not sure what happened with LO-lite. Do I regret it? I’m still too mired in it to know.”
OK, what if I said it sounds as if the action you took (not meeting him again for hookups) WAS a way to avoid him becoming a full-on LO? As in, not to get in any deeper.
“There was no way I would have turned that down at that time in my life. And I think Vicarious hit on this … other guys couldn’t compare.”
I’m not sure what it is Vicarious has said. Is it about pedestalling his LOs, so nobody else could quite compare?
“Apparently, it means much less to your side. (I’m talking about LO-lite. The younger guy is still down to meet up .. but, you know, convenient sex.)”
It depends where in life the person is, I guess. I take it the younger guy is not being allowed back? Oh and what happened to that guy who said about FWB – is he still MIA? (I know you’d cooled on the idea anyway because he was too slow).
Typo – making HIMself look good
LaR,
“Did he mean by ‘being a good date’, more than just ‘polite and pleasant’? ”
Yes. That he was showing the woman a good time.
“But if he’s not interested, he’s not doing her any favours by going OTT in the name of making himself look good. And probably not doing himself any favours either.”
Oh, yeah, it’s all about how he wants to be seen. It’s all about him. If I remember correctly, he would tell a woman he would call her at the end of the evening. I wrote, “Why do that if you don’t intend to call? Why not just say that you enjoyed meeting her and say goodnight.” And he wrote that was cold and mean. That would sting if a woman said that to him. I don’t get it. Seems to me it’s polite but honest. I’d rather not have someone tell me he’ll call if he doesn’t intend to. (Though he claimed he was on the fence about some of these women and wanted to keep his options open. I think that’s the key. He didn’t want to shut the door entirely. Better to have something than nothing. I’ve never understood that way of thinking or behaving. Takes too much effort to keep things going for someone I’m half into.)
“I’m probably the wrong person to ask as I have often got to commitment quickly with people I’ve dated. ”
How quickly? (Just out of curiosity. How soon after the first date?)
“But I also kind of think I know where you’re trying to get me to go with this!! ”
Ha! I actually wasn’t. It was just a general question. But now that you mention it …
” I could make a good argument as to why, if you want.”
Yes, I’d like the argument. Really.
“Where are we on snark more generally?”
I’m fine with snark. I just couldn’t tell the tone. If I’m joking, I usually add a smiley emoji.
“But surely that’s still better than being dishonest?”
Honestly, I haven’t experienced that. Someone giving me a load of bull or faking more serious interest to get sex.
“It is impossible to judge these historic things by the standards we have for ourselves decades later.”
Well, that’s true.”
“Yes, but like you’ve said before, there are ways and means of exploring these things and conveying interest without having to use creepy actions or words.”
How do you do that? Let me be clear in that I talk to men. Enjoy a nice conversation. Maybe joke a little. There are several in the groups I like quite a bit. But it’s not flirty. And that’s fine. There aren’t any I’ve met who I want to get flirty with because I don’t want it to be read as showing interest.
Except that one. But I’ve never spoken to him. And I wouldn’t get flirty/push the envelope unless the vibe was there. Women fear being creepy, too.
“All those articles Snow posted about modern dating recently paint such a pessimistic picture.”
Yes, but they’re all from one source. A very liberal source. Which isn’t to say the opinions aren’t valid.
“I’ve got only a couple of male friends I could talk emotions with. And that is a lot to put on the partner (if of course the man doesn’t acquire female friends🤦♂️).”
Talk to your sister or your mother if you want a female perspective. 🙂
“It’s quite sad, because I can see some of my male friends are going through a lot, but even though I’m open to emotional chat, when I try it with them, they clam up.”
It’s too bad they don’t feel they can talk to you.
“I wonder why that is. Men are supposed to be the ones that ruin everything by being too competitive.”
Maybe competition isn’t the right word. There’s a great scene in the movie “Bridesmaids” where the one BFF tells the other she’s engaged. And you can see it on the other friend’s face. Yes, she’s happy for her. But the emotions are conflicting because she knows what it means. A change in the friendship, maybe she herself doesn’t have anyone, etc.
“Yeah, it is dark, but you’re right. The pair-bonding drive is strong and explains what’s under so much of what we hear on this site.”
I don’t think it has to be that way. It’s just how society is structured and VERY few people ever question it.
“OK, what if I said it sounds as if the action you took (not meeting him again for hookups) WAS a way to avoid him becoming a full-on LO? As in, not to get in any deeper.”
I mean, it probably was. But he’s always in the back of my mind, if not the forefront. I’d love to hear from him. But one thing I wont’ do, which I definitely did in my last LE, was do almost everything in my power to hang around/be around him. I can’t do that to myself again. He knows where to find me if he wants to. As did my big LO. Which I should have accepted! It’s a bad sign when you have to keep reminding someone you’re alive.
“I’m not sure what it is Vicarious has said. Is it about pedestalling his LOs, so nobody else could quite compare?”
That it’s hard to get excited about other options once you’ve experienced limerence. And as I think I’ve made clear … he knew what he was doing. 🙂 Two factors hard to find again. Especially in the same person.
“It depends where in life the person is, I guess.”
Something tells me he doesn’t have women lined up. It’s not his appearance. It’s his personality. So why not try to hit it again with me?
“I take it the younger guy is not being allowed back?”
No. I was testing myself to see if I could have non-go-off-the-deep-end sex.
“Oh and what happened to that guy who said about FWB – is he still MIA? ”
I had to think for a minute who you were referring to. I haven’t heard from him.
“I know you’d cooled on the idea anyway because he was too slow.”
Oh, yeah. I was already on the fence due to my interest level. But now he’s just being rude. This was weeks ago. Forget it now.
“There are several in the groups I like quite a bit. But it’s not flirty. And that’s fine. There aren’t any I’ve met who I want to get flirty with because I don’t want it to be read as showing interest.”
Marcia,
You don’t have to hold back. I know how you feel. You can be flirty all you want with me. I may be as old as you but I’m young at heart.
😆😆😆
In today’s “too good to resist a comment” highlights reel
Marcia: “Will I ever get another? Or does the Universe only dole out so many per person, per lifetime?”
MJ: “You don’t have to hold back. I know how you feel. You can be flirty all you want with me. ”
There’s your answer, Dame Marcia. Just call me cupid ❤️✨️☕️
Only in my Dreams Brother LaR. That Woman thinks I’m too old for her. Besides she’s already admitted she likes Adam more anyway. So it looks like I’ll have to settle for second place again..
Good Lord is there no hope?? 😂
LaR,
“In today’s “too good to resist a comment” highlights reel
Marcia: “Will I ever get another? Or does the Universe only dole out so many per person, per lifetime?””
Yeah … uh … “another one” is not intermittent, anonymous messaging on a forum for people who are obsessed with other people. Not quite what I had in mind. 🙂
MJ,
” You can be flirty all you want with me. ”
Ok, Sweet Cheeks. I’m not worried about you. I know you’re just going to orbit, anyway. (Come on. That was funny. 🙂 )
“I may be as old as you but I’m young at heart.”
As I wrote before, I don’t care how old you feel. Only how old you look. 🙂
Marcia,
“Oh, yeah, it’s all about how he wants to be seen. It’s all about him.”
But he then looks like a d*** when he doesn’t call her. And more of a d*** than if he hadn’t done the whole pretense.
“He didn’t want to shut the door entirely. Better to have something than nothing.”
I think you’ve kind of nailed it. But if he says he’ll call after the date and then doesn’t, he slams the door shut anyway. His logic doesn’t add up.
“How quickly? (Just out of curiosity. How soon after the first date?)”
In all my serious relationships I have had the exclusivity chat within about a month of the first date. Bear in mind though that only one of these is within the last 15 years. I think back in the day early exclusivity was more normal than it is now.
[” I could make a good argument as to why, if you want.”]
OK. If I put it plainly, because sometimes the same qualities that make a woman glimmer strongly to me, aren’t the same qualities I’d ideally want to deal with every day for the rest or my life. Though I do believe that could in theory be overriden if the cards lined up right.
[“Yes, but like you’ve said before, there are ways and means of exploring these things and conveying interest without having to use creepy actions or words.”]
“How do you do that?”
I’ve never been any kind of great at it. I have learned from you that it is the subtle physical signals that can make a difference. Personally I can convey quite a lot with my eyes. And when someone interests me, I will try and listen to them – like *really* listen – and ask them a lot of questions. I have also described it before when I said about all the subtleties of how I’d convey “the only person in the room”.
I don’t think it is ever one thing but more a cluster of signals that happen together that show it.
“There are several in the groups I like quite a bit.”
Like or LIKE?
“There aren’t any I’ve met who I want to get flirty with because I don’t want it to be read as showing interest.”
Because you don’t like them like that? Or because you think it’s the wrong vibe in that group environment? Or because you want them to take the lead?
“Yes, but they’re all from one source. A very liberal source. Which isn’t to say the opinions aren’t valid.”
True dat.
“It’s too bad they don’t feel they can talk to you.”
It is. Maybe I should try and take a step forward for MANkind and push that harder. I might also have less of a need for female friends (honestly) if there was more proper chat with male friends.
“Yes, she’s happy for her. But the emotions are conflicting because she knows what it means. A change in the friendship, maybe she herself doesn’t have anyone, etc.”
I know the scene, and I totally get you.
SO finds the toilet scene in that movie so funny – I have rarely seen her laugh so hard.
[“The pair-bonding drive is strong and explains what’s under so much of what we hear on this site.”]
“I don’t think it has to be that way. It’s just how society is structured and VERY few people ever question it.”
If you mean monogamy by the way society is structured, then I agree. But the basic biological drives top almost everything else.
“one thing I wont’ do, which I definitely did in my last LE, was do almost everything in my power to hang around/be around him. I can’t do that to myself again.”
Hold that line, it’s good basic self respect.
“And as I think I’ve made clear … he knew what he was doing. 🙂”
I think I basically understand from his posts here why he does what he does.
“Something tells me he doesn’t have women lined up. It’s not his appearance. It’s his personality. So why not try to hit it again with me?”
Who are we on here, LO lite?
“But now he’s just being rude. This was weeks ago. Forget it now.”
You snooze, you lose 🙂
LaR,
“I think you’ve kind of nailed it. But if he says he’ll call after the date and then doesn’t, he slams the door shut anyway. His logic doesn’t add up.”
Well, yes, I’m sure he knew the option was removed from the table if he didn’t call. But he wanted to leave the date with the option still there. Maybe in the meantime he was going to make sure he could line up some other dates. Idk. Didn’t you pretty much know whether or not you wanted a second date? Did you need to go home and think about it?
“In all my serious relationships I have had the exclusivity chat within about a month of the first date. Bear in mind though that only one of these is within the last 15 years. I think back in the day early exclusivity was more normal than it is now.”
I don’t think a month is too fast. Much sooner than that may be. But much longer than two months, tops three, of dating … it probably isn’t going to get serious.
So did you bring up being exclusive? How did you word it ? And I’m assuming things were building … more phone calls/texts and seeing each other more over that first month ? (That’s different than … the couple has been dating for a month but only on 2 dates and they’re only in contact every 10 days.)
“OK. If I put it plainly, because sometimes the same qualities that make a woman glimmer strongly to me, aren’t the same qualities I’d ideally want to deal with every day for the rest or my life. ”
So what makes a woman hot (hot, not attractive; two different things) is different than what makes her partner material?
“”I have also described it before when I said about all the subtleties of how I’d convey “the only person in the room”.”
But how do you know the other person wants you to put out the vibes? Sometimes it can be hard to tell.
“Like or LIKE?”
Like. If I LIKED them, I would do more to convey that … depending on the person/circumstances.
“Because you don’t like them like that? ”
Yes.
“Or because you think it’s the wrong vibe in that group environment?”
I think you can vibe it up, within reason, no matter the environment.
“Or because you want them to take the lead?”
I mean, to get my number or be the first to contact me, yes, I’d like the man to do it. But to indicate initial interest … it’s generally kind of a mutual thing ?
“SO finds the toilet scene in that movie so funny – I have rarely seen her laugh so hard.”
I love the airplane scene where Melissa McCarthy blocks the guy she thinks is an air marshal. She throws her leg up so he can’t get into the bathroom. She asks if he can feel the heat from her undercarriage! 🙂
“If you mean monogamy by the way society is structured, then I agree. But the basic biological drives top almost everything else.”
No, I meant the way we prioritize relationships. I wish friendship was more important to people instead of below the SO, family, job, hobbies, dog, gardening, etc.
“Hold that line, it’s good basic self respect.”
Exactly. Here’s the tell that I should have been so painfully obvious with big LO … if you meet someone at work or church or school or a group … and you leave said place and they make no effort to contact you and/or see you again.
“I think I basically understand from his posts here why he does what he does.”
I’m not sure who we’re talking about here. I was talking about the earlier LO, from when I was young. He was sexually skilled. I thought I’d been pretty obvious with that detail. 🙂
[“Something tells me he doesn’t have women lined up. It’s not his appearance. It’s his personality. So why not try to hit it again with me?”]
“Who are we on here, LO lite?”
No. The younger guy. The hook up.
“You snooze, you lose 🙂”
And it’s incredibly rude to tell someone you’ll be back in touch within the next week and not do it.
LaR,
Line up some dates with other women. That’s what I meant.
Marcia,
“Didn’t you pretty much know whether or not you wanted a second date? Did you need to go home and think about it?”
Yeah I knew. There was kind of a norm on first dates that you’d leave it 1-2 days before saying so. But that’s different from your example where he either never intends to ask her out again, or has her in some kind of competition with other potential women from the app (an unfortunate recent development).
I haven’t been in this game since we got to the era of swiping on photos on apps as a kind of pre-screening of whether you can chat to the person. Do you think it’s true what they say – that that development has concentrated the power in 20% of people, and the remaining 80% are casting around for scraps?
“So did you bring up being exclusive? How did you word it ? And I’m assuming things were building … ?”
In all cases, yes it built. I can’t remember the wording I used in older relationships. Once, it was in the context of the woman admitting she’d had sex with someone else while I was away on holiday (this was within first few weeks of dating) and saying she regretted it. I used that to leverage the conversation. As far as I know she stayed exclusive after that point. With SO, I remember saying some words close to admitting I loved her (but not the exact words) and piggy-backing an exclusivity chat onto that.
“So what makes a woman hot (hot, not attractive; two different things) is different than what makes her partner material?”
I know what you’re getting at here, and I could probably make life simple by just answering ‘yes’. Unfortunately, as you know I am not one for making life simple, and this is a good point to dig deeper at …
How would you define ‘hot’ vs ‘attractive’, if we’re saying they’re different? Because I think some people can be both, or that feeling a person is one of them, can morph into feeling both? If ‘hot’ enough, the attractiveness could grow? Or if ‘attractive’ enough, hotness could grow? (I might be idealising. Bring me back to earth if necessary please 🙂)
I also think for the long term survival prospects and health of any relationship, it is helpful if the two found each other hot, at least to start with.
“But how do you know the other person wants you to put out the vibes? Sometimes it can be hard to tell.”
Push the boundary just a little bit at a time and monitor the response, then move forward or pull back accordingly.
“But to indicate initial interest … it’s generally kind of a mutual thing?”
Yes, and I think that hits at the same thing as in the previous point. People kind of instinctively know the signs and give some reciprocation if they want to. If we can’t detect *any* such signs, or subtle reciprocation of signs we give, it probably means ‘nothing to see here’. Often people see what they want to see, mind you.
“No, I meant the way we prioritize relationships. I wish friendship was more important to people instead of below the SO, family, job, hobbies, dog, gardening, etc.”
Agreed. I think this depends a bit on the culture we live in. Friendship doesn’t seem so unimportant here. But it does still seem a declining priority for people.
“I’m not sure who we’re talking about here. I was talking about the earlier LO, from when I was young. He was sexually skilled. I thought I’d been pretty obvious with that detail. 🙂”
I have lost the thread of this bit. I mixed two things up, as we were also discussing a point another poster (Vicarious) made about pedestalling LO over other dates / how no other date or offer of one could live up to the LO. Maybe your point is much the same – sounds like that LO was a lot to live up to.
“And it’s incredibly rude to tell someone you’ll be back in touch within the next week and not do it.”
It’s no less than a deal breaker in those circumstances.
LaR,
“There was kind of a norm on first dates that you’d leave it 1-2 days before saying so.”
I’m not sure what you mean. You wouldn’t call for a day or two after the first date because you weren’t sure you wanted a second date ?
“Do you think it’s true what they say – that that development has concentrated the power in 20% of people, and the remaining 80% are casting around for scraps?”
I don’t know. I mean, what is one focusing on? A one-dimensional image and a short profile. If I had seen either my LO or the guy I had a crush on after him on the dating site, I would have nixed both of them. The crush guy had TERRIBLE style and a bad haircut and I would have taken one look at him and thought we would have nothing in common. But for some reason, in person, he really appealed to me.
“Once, it was in the context of the woman admitting she’d had sex with someone else while I was away on holiday (this was within first few weeks of dating) and saying she regretted it. I used that to leverage the conversation. ”
So you dated her seriously after she admitted that? Had you two already hooked up? I would have been totally turned off by someone admitting that. Not that I was owed exclusivity in the early stages of dating if we hadn’t discussed it and agreed on it, but that the person felt the need to reveal that. That would have felt manipulative to me. I would have wondered why they were telling me.
“As far as I know she stayed exclusive after that point.”
How come you weren’t sure? Weren’t you dating her seriously?
” With SO, I remember saying some words close to admitting I loved her (but not the exact words) and piggy-backing an exclusivity chat onto that.”
So you were in love with her really quickly, right? I was watching a YouTube video the other day and the topic was how rare it is for there to be mutual interest and the timing to be right and for things to move forward. And it really is. Usually, there’s just not enough there to get things going after a date or two. Or sometimes not even that. Not even beyond exchanging numbers.
“Unfortunately, as you know I am not one for making life simple”
I think we’ve established that you like drama. 🙂
“How would you define ‘hot’ vs ‘attractive’, if we’re saying they’re different? ”
I guess hot is … you’re jonesing for them. For whatever reason, they do it for you. I’m not sure where I was going with this thread. 🙂 Are there people who make the best sex partners not necessarily the ones who make the best relationship partners? (For you, personally, I mean.) Maybe the woman has an element of danger. Makes her exciting. Or is that just malarkey I read about? Most of you like safe, don’t you? 🙂
“I also think for the long term survival prospects and health of any relationship, it is helpful if the two found each other hot, at least to start with.”
Yeah, I agree.
I guess, to me, “hotness” is … you look at them and think: Whoa. Whereas “attractiveness” is more an acknowledgment of their aesthetic appeal. Is more mental versus gut instinct.
“Push the boundary just a little bit at a time and monitor the response, then move forward or pull back accordingly.”
I don’t think you have to if you both are feeling it. It’s what I wrote before. If a woman really likes a man, she’ll help him out. The less he has to do, the more she likes him.
“If we can’t detect *any* such signs, or subtle reciprocation of signs we give, it probably means ‘nothing to see here’. ”
As a general rule. Throwing something out there or approaching doesn’t create an opportunity. When you were single and in cruising mode and went to a party, for example, didn’t you have an idea of who you wanted to talk to?
“as we were also discussing a point another poster (Vicarious) made about pedestalling LO over other dates / how no other date or offer of one could live up to the LO. ”
Limerence makes dating difficult. Because you know how strongly you can feel. And although you know that’s not a realistic standard to expect (and you know it’s probably not a healthy one), it can make everything else feel flimsy.
“Maybe your point is much the same – sounds like that LO was a lot to live up to.”
You don’t have a woman in your past who set a sexual standard? 🙂
I met him at a very specific time in my life. Hard to say if I met him now if I’d be as attracted and impressed.
“It’s no less than a deal breaker in those circumstances.”
I guess I just don’t get it. Why reach out after all that time and then … disappear?
Marcia,
“I’m not sure what you mean. You wouldn’t call for a day or two after the first date because you weren’t sure you wanted a second date?”
No, not that – though I think that’s what the guy you described (from the other website) was doing.
What I meant (and I don’t know if it is still the same) is that it was seen as usual to wait a day or two after a first date to phone, because it could seem a bit needy and playing your cards too soon (even a bit desperate) to ask straight away.
I’m old enough to remember the days when arranging such things meant phoning the parents’ house of your date! Maybe the waiting bit is a bit of a hangover from those days. In the current age of 24/7 connection it might be different – thoughts?
“I don’t know. I mean, what is one focusing on? A one-dimensional image and a short profile.”
Yes, but that’s all people have to go on now. It would seem to shut a lot of doors and waste a lot of time.
“If I had seen either my LO or the guy I had a crush on after him on the dating site, I would have nixed both of them.”
There you go – so much information is missing compared to a real life connection.
“So you dated her seriously after she admitted that? Had you two already hooked up? I would have been totally turned off by someone admitting that.”
Yes, we had. I saw it a bit differently. I hadn’t tried to pin down exclusivity at that point. I saw it as her admitting something to come clean, rather than hide it and have it come out much later. I respected that she told me.
[“As far as I know she stayed exclusive after that point.”]
“How come you weren’t sure? Weren’t you dating her seriously?”
We did date seriously, yes. I don’t think she ever cheated, but do we ever *really* know for sure? I’ve been burned with that by someone else, and I didn’t figure it out for ages.
“So you were in love with her really quickly, right?” I was watching a YouTube video the other day and the topic was how rare it is for there to be mutual interest and the timing to be right and for things to move forward.”
The stars aligned pretty well. After our first date there was a pause for a week or two (I didn’t think she was keen so didn’t follow up, but she then did – I think we were both very nervous on the first date). After the second date, things took off in a good way pretty quickly. It was a gamble to profess love at that early stage though.
“Or sometimes not even that. Not even beyond exchanging numbers.”
Something that was notable with SO, in light of bits we’ve discussed, is we always had plenty to say to each other by text etc in between the earlier dates.
“I guess hot is … you’re jonesing for them. For whatever reason, they do it for you. I’m not sure where I was going with this thread. 🙂”
I was discussing how the same qualities that create hotness might not be the ones I’d want to deal with every day for the rest of our lives. Emphasis on the ‘might’!
“Are there people who make the best sex partners not necessarily the ones who make the best relationship partners? (For you, personally, I mean.) Maybe the woman has an element of danger. Makes her exciting.”
So that’s pretty true of the one above who I was talking about. It was hot at the beginning, but we turned out to be incompatible in a relationship.
The element of danger is a good way of identifying what creates the speak but also what might not appeal longer term.
How does it work the other way round? Doed hotness in a man equal the main qualities you’d want long term?
“Most of you like safe, don’t you? 🙂”
I don’t know! I am not sure if ‘safe’ is quite the word. I don’t want big dramas all the time (yes, honestly!). The one above always had to have some kind of drama going on and drag me into it. Like, every day.
“I guess, to me, “hotness” is … you look at them and think: Whoa. Whereas “attractiveness” is more an acknowledgment of their aesthetic appeal. Is more mental versus gut instinct.”
Yeah so for example I work with a woman who many men find attractive (possibly also hot). But I wouldn’t be in the least bit interested (she is too stuck up – ‘knows it’ about herself too much). Yet objectively I know she’s attractive – in a kind of “8 out of 10 men would say …” kind of way.
I think when you start looking at LTR prospects, then there is another sense of ‘attractive’ where the personality comes into it as much or more as the looks.
“I don’t think you have to if you both are feeling it. It’s what I wrote before. If a woman really likes a man, she’ll help him out. The less he has to do, the more she likes him.”
The context for this bit of the chat before was my surprise that not much of that stuff goes on at those ‘meetups’. Both sides know how to convey attraction and turn the ratchet key a little. Maybe it is something about that environment being ‘not for dating’ that makes people warier. You implied it was much like the modern workplace (sterile, safe, PC etc).
“When you were single and in cruising mode and went to a party, for example, didn’t you have an idea of who you wanted to talk to?”
Yes but you had to take the rough with the smooth and accept that sometimes it just wouldn’t land.
“Limerence makes dating difficult. Because you know how strongly you can feel. And although you know that’s not a realistic standard to expect (and you know it’s probably not a healthy one), it can make everything else feel flimsy.”
Yeah for sure. I never actually progressed any of my strongest LEs to anything ‘real’, so I don’t have the comparator.
“I guess I just don’t get it. Why reach out after all that time and then … disappear?”
Did he have previous form for that kind of weirdness?
LaR,
“What I meant (and I don’t know if it is still the same) is that it was seen as usual to wait a day or two after a first date to phone, because it could seem a bit needy and playing your cards too soon (even a bit desperate) to ask straight away. … Maybe the waiting bit is a bit of a hangover from those days. In the current age of 24/7 connection it might be different – thoughts?”
I just saw a video on this. It was called the “three-day” rule. You got the number, for example, and you waited to call. I remember doing it. I remember one guy calling me that same night and I thought: Nope! 🙂 I don’t think waiting a bit in the early stages is a bad thing. It creates a sense of anticipation. But now, no, it wouldn’t work. When I went out with that one guy, in between dates, he was falling off with the texting. A day here, a couple of days there. If you’re dating online, each side knows conversations are being had with other people. So I knew things probably weren’t going to go anywhere because he didn’t seem worried about that. If either side doesn’t care if another party swoops in, that’s a bad sign.
“Yes, but that’s all people have to go on now. It would seem to shut a lot of doors and waste a lot of time.”
It could shut doors but it may open the wrong ones. A lot of it is messaging back and forth that seems endless and goes nowhere. To the point where you stop responding.
“There you go – so much information is missing compared to a real life connection.”
Yes, because attraction/interest is based on so many other factors than just someone’s physical appearance. But that’s a big part of the information you have while on a dating site. In a lot of ways, it brings out everyone’s very shallow instincts.
“Yes, we had.”
Now I’m even more turned off. Because my ego would have been bruised. Wasn’t it so awesome with me … no other option looked as good? 🙂
“I saw it as her admitting something to come clean, rather than hide it and have it come out much later. I respected that she told me.”
Why did she need to come clean? I mean, I don’t see it as any of your business if you weren’t officially together. And unless you all three knew each other and the other guy told you … how would you have ever found out? I think people get unnecessarily worried about that kind of thing.
“We did date seriously, yes. I don’t think she ever cheated, but do we ever *really* know for sure?”
Well, I guess you don’t.
“I’ve been burned with that by someone else, and I didn’t figure it out for ages.”
That happened to me. But I suspected.
“The stars aligned pretty well. After our first date there was a pause for a week or two (I didn’t think she was keen so didn’t follow up, but she then did ”
Yep. She helped you out. 🙂 She was interested.
“It was a gamble to profess love at that early stage though.”
You actually used the word “love”? I guess it would depend on the context. There’s a fine line between someone knowing they’re into the person/expressing it and someone love bombing. The latter is a need for validation and it’s common for the bomber to pull away only weeks later once they get to know the person better and decide they’re not as keen. Some level of temperance shows … emotional intelligence and concern for the other person’s feelings.
“SO, in light of bits we’ve discussed, is we always had plenty to say to each other by text etc in between the earlier dates.”
Where did you two meet?
“How does it work the other way round? Does hotness in a man equal the main qualities you’d want long term?”
Yes. And I noticed you didn’t answer the sexual standard question. 🙂 With LO-lite. That fact that he took the chance and disclosed (that took nerve) and then actually showed up … huge turn on. He’s not going to flirt and go right up to “the line” … and then run back the other direction. Rinse and repeat. There’s something about a man who knows what he wants and goes after it. But could I ever trust him?
“The one above always had to have some kind of drama going on and drag me into it. Like, every day.”
That would get old. And then you have to wonder … are they creating this drama?
“Yeah so for example I work with a woman who many men find attractive (possibly also hot). But I wouldn’t be in the least bit interested (she is too stuck up – ‘knows it’ about herself too much). Yet objectively I know she’s attractive – in a kind of “8 out of 10 men would say …” kind of way.”
Yeah, there was one like that at the job where I met my LO. Hands down, more aesthetically handsome than my LO. This guy could have been on the cover of GQ. But … kind of arrogant … had had everything handed to him … entitled … and … Idk … friendly enough but I had nothing really to say to him. No connection.
“I think when you start looking at LTR prospects, then there is another sense of ‘attractive’ where the personality comes into it as much or more as the looks.”
And that’s why limerence is so tricky. Because you’re just filtering for : Does this person light me up? Once you start adding in … personality, their values, etc. … you have to water down the “light me up” factor.
“Maybe it is something about that environment being ‘not for dating’ that makes people warier. You implied it was much like the modern workplace (sterile, safe, PC etc).”
I guess I meant … when I first saw my LO on the work campus .. from a distance. We were checking each other out. And later, inadvertently (because I didn’t know who he was) … I ran into him and he started talking to me. So him talking to me didn’t create the opportunity. I was already interested. And I think that was probably obvious.
That’s not always the case. The crush said something a touch raunchy to me one day. I’d known him for years and I’d never gotten any kind of energy like that from him. But, again, I’d already noticed him, but he didn’t know that. He changed our dynamic but often there’s an energy there. You can feel it.
But, yes, the atmosphere is drier now.
“Yes but you had to take the rough with the smooth and accept that sometimes it just wouldn’t land.”
Yes. And sometimes you’re wrong. Nobody bats 1000. 🙂
“Did he have previous form for that kind of weirdness?”
I can’t answer that as we were just work friends before.
Marcia,
“I don’t think waiting a bit in the early stages is a bad thing. It creates a sense of anticipation. But now, no, it wouldn’t work.”
So in online dating now, if there isn’t t contact within 24 hours of the date, is that almost game over?
“A lot of it is messaging back and forth that seems endless and goes nowhere. To the point where you stop responding.”
When I briefly tried online dating (it is more than 15 years ago now), there had to be A LOT of messaging before anyone went on a date. I walked away from one or two when they got to the ‘are you a cat person or dog person?’ stage. Like, everyone knows why they’re there, so …?!
“In a lot of ways, it brings out everyone’s very shallow instincts.”
I’ve been out of the market so long, and I don’t know many people actively trying to date … so I had no idea it had got so bad. I read a few bits from other sources about the dating market when we were last talking about it, and they all said it was dire.
“Because my ego would have been bruised. Wasn’t it so awesome with me … no other option looked as good? 🙂”
I do get what you mean. It came as a shock and a bruise initially, but it was trumped by the facts that she was honest and that she pursued it with me, not this other guy (I didn’t know him – he was someone she’d hooked up wirh before – you might say that makes it even worse!)
“There’s something about a man who knows what he wants and goes after it. But could I ever trust him?”
For me the trust is important. I think that’s why I rode out that disclosure – because she had enough trust in me/us to tell me.
“That would get old.”
It really did.
“And then you have to wonder … are they creating this drama?”
Definitely. She was playing out her past on me. She’d likely say the same was true the other way round, mind you. Singularly my worst relationship, that one. See – I should have assessed the initial disclosure about the other guy like you would have done – it would have saved us both a lot of trouble!
“You actually used the word “love”? I guess it would depend on the context.”
No. I said to SO that I thought I was falling hard for her (which was true).
“Where did you two meet?”
An overlap between our two works for just a short time span. The overlap had a finite end point if I hadn’t pursued it. In fact it had ended, but we’d swapped email addresses.
“And that’s why limerence is so tricky. Because you’re just filtering for : Does this person light me up? Once you start adding in … personality, their values, etc. … you have to water down the “light me up” factor.”
Unless you’ve learned all that about your LO before you decide that they light you up, of course 🤦♂️
“He changed our dynamic but often there’s an energy there. You can feel it.
But, yes, the atmosphere is drier now.”
The energy will still be there between people now – that’s basic biology and human nature – but people are self-censoring it so much in workplaces. It has to still be there, but harder to spot and develop.
LaR,
“So in online dating now, if there isn’t t contact within 24 hours of the date, is that almost game over?”
Depends on what you’re looking for. But if someone isn’t afraid of losing your interest/attention … kind of tells you where things stand. And I’d say it’s not just contact. There has to be another date discussed/set up and both parties have to show up to it. Otherwise, you could text endlessly and just be an option.
“there had to be A LOT of messaging before anyone went on a date. I walked away from one or two when they got to the ‘are you a cat person or dog person?’ stage. Like, everyone knows why they’re there, so …?!”
I find that guys are either pushing to meet up too soon … as in within the first few messages or they take forever to get around to asking and aren’t clear about where and when. Could even be the day of the date … and you still don’t know what the heck is happening.
“I don’t know many people actively trying to date … so I had no idea it had got so bad. ”
But isn’t that human nature? All you have to go on is how someone looks in a one-dimensional image. I’d say to use online dating as ONE way of meeting people. But at least you know the people on there are more than likely available … it’s harder to meet available people the older you get. So I wouldn’t rule it out.
“she pursued it with me, not this other guy (I didn’t know him – he was someone she’d hooked up with before – you might say that makes it even worse!)”
But why didn’t she pursue it with him? Was that her choice or his? No guarantee she would have been honest if you’d asked, but I’d have wondered if I’d won by default. But that’s me. 🙂
“For me the trust is important. I think that’s why I rode out that disclosure – because she had enough trust in me/us to tell me.”
Idk. I would have questioned why someone told me that. I’m of the “date-ask-don’t-tell” mindset when it comes to previous sexual experience. I don’t want those images in my head and … well, depending on what was said … I could end up worrying how I’d compete with that.
“She was playing out her past on me. She’d likely say the same was true the other way round, mind you.”
But don’t we all do that?
“Singularly my worst relationship, that one.”
Was she the one you’d say you were most limerent for in the beginning? (in terms of women you actually dated/had relationships with)
“No. I said to SO that I thought I was falling hard for her (which was true).”
How did she respond?
“Unless you’ve learned all that about your LO before you decide that they light you up, of course 🤦♂️”
I have to admit … I don’t understand that. To me, limerence is about projection. Fantasy. A bit of distance/mystery. I could never have become limerent for one of my guy friends. We had conversations I never would have had if I’d been interested. The sex they’d had, were having, how they seduced women, etc. I knew their secrets. (To be clear, this wasn’t all we talked about.)
“The energy will still be there between people now – that’s basic biology and human nature – but people are self-censoring it so much in workplaces. It has to still be there, but harder to spot and develop.”
To an extent. But I also think people overestimate how often mutual attraction and interest happen. I’m not talking about flirting but genuine interest.
Well, I am starting over again with No Contact for the gazillionth time.
I wonder how many times I can fail at this?
ND,
It can take awhile and often takes an epiphany:
1. You get fed up being a patsy and feeling lousy after interacting with them.
2. You accept that they’re not likely to change.
The therapist said that for a smart guy, I was a slow learner. The therapist said that I wasn’t in denial and had a very good idea of what was going on. She asked why, since I had all the evidence that I needed, why would I re-engage LO #2?
My response was that how do you know someone hasn’t changed until they prove that they haven’t?
The therapist came back with: “It’s not that they can’t change it’s that they usually don’t.”
To L.E.:
Thank you for your comments. I don’t expect LO to change, I don’t think I am in denial. I just enjoy his company so much when he is pleasant.
Of course it’s like Russian Roulette, wondering if he’ll be pleasant or not.
ND,
When he’s being dismissive and demeaning have you ever just confronted him and said that you don’t appreciate being treated that way?
To L.E.:
Yes, he flies into a rage and accuses me of trying to make him feel guilty. It makes everything worse.
ND,
He sounds like a classic Narc.
Nobody respects a doormat. Every time you let him treat you that way, you betray yourself and lose self-respect.
Don’t let him do that to you.
To L.E.:
Thank you so much for saying that. Please feel free to remind me again.
It’s not as if I don’t understand, I do. I was married to a narcissist for 20 years and I am very familiar with the way they twist things around.
I am also familiar with something called the Idealization/Devaluation Triangle, which is what I found myself in on Thursday night. LO is at the top of the triangle. His favored cat-owning neighbor is in the Idealization corner, and I am in the Devaluation corner, like a piece of gum stuck to his shoe.
I have an update on a story I posted on another thread regarding a car hitting a dog right in front of LO’s house last week.
LO was told the dog had died. I just heard from my friend in the blue car, and it turns out that the dog is fine.
What a relief!
Apparently the incorrect information came from the owner of the cat, who seems to have some kind of confusion problem. I personally suspect she may have had a mini-stroke? Or worse, some kind of early-onset dementia? I told LO I was worried about her, but he can’t see anything wrong. I have known her for ten years and she is NOT the person I used to know. I can’t believe LO can’t see a problem. She doesn’t sound well at all.
Anyway, dog has two broken bones and should be fine.
I’m glad to learn that the dog is ok. But sorry to hear your concerns about your friend. It’s so hard to know what to do if you suspect someone may be in the early stages of dementia. Does she have family you can talk to?
Sending strength for your NC.
To Miss Cloud:
No, I don’t know her well enough to talk to her family. She has an adult son and an adult daughter. Surely they will do something ? It’s also possible that medication is causing her confusion, in which case, hopefully it is temporary.
I am finding that I am affected much worse than I had originally thought about LO’s contrasting behavior toward the lady cat-owner, and toward me. He was soft-spoken, kind and conciliatory toward her, and then sharp-tongued toward me. He actually said he was going to leave if I interrupted him again.
I tried telling my best girlfriend the story, and she snapped, “Norma, I don’t care for him the way you do–I don’t CARE! I just want to hear about the dog!!”
Usually she s quite a bit nicer. Another friend just shrugged it off, saying he probably doesn’t like to be interrupted. Well, duh. NOBODY likes to be interrupted and I should not have done so. But to react with rage to such a simple question, “What kind of car was it?” is a little over-the-top.
I’ve said some of this before, but as pre-amble to my points, I believe:
1. Early strong attraction feelings are similar / the same to the early stages of limerence
2. It normally only turns into the other stages of limerence when it gets ‘frustrated’ by barriers
3. Otherwise – if the two people can get together – it can be deemed ‘relationship development’ (for good or bad) rather than limerence.
Now as a more informed limerent from my time on LwL, I can look back at my past relationships and see just one clear instance within that ‘relationship development’ phase with an SO, where the feelings felt much like the barriered bits of limerence (anxiety, confusion, uncertainty, reward-seeking etc). This happened because of different expectations we had about communication, personal space and where the relationship was headed and how fast.
In hindsight that relationship was never going to work. Better screening for those differences at early dating stages, and more listening to myself over amber / red flags, could have saved both me and her a lot of trouble.
I am unsure how this advice applies to the modern ‘app’ dating era. I guess it can only be filtered for by going on dates with several different people, unless you catch a lucky break. This stands in comparison to the more traditional ways of dating where some pre-screening could happen before it ever reached date stage.
But I’d agree with DrL and others who commented on last week’s post – there is clear benefit to honest exchanges early on about how communication is going to work between two people, which could lead to green ‘proceed’ flags or red ‘walk away’ ones. It might then be possible to detect early on, whether the partnership with the potential SO is going to trigger limerence-like feelings in a person prone to limerence.
I went to the vape store with my wife and I was looking around and one of the gals asked me if I needed help. I asked her what kratom is and she explained it to me and handed me their warning about it’s effects. And I’m reading it out loud and it says “not to take under the influence of alcohol” and I said “better not try it tonight.” And she says “probably not.” And I said “that’s why my wife is driving” and we both laughed. 😂
https://youtu.be/KUmZp8pR1uc?si=YpEvbLA86-kr0V4B
I say No, No, No.. 😆😆😆
“I don’t ever wanna drink again, I just, oh I just need a friend”
That’s pretty damned profound.
Sometimes one knows all they can downplay it and laugh. Unfortunately she only made it to 27. I’ll be 48 on the 22nd.
Adam, please stay away from Kratom! I think it’s the reason my sister has lost her freaking mind. Her behavior is off-the-charts insane. She says that she quit alcohol, but now she uses Kratom and Marijuana. I asked my son’s therapist about it in a family session. My son said, “Wait a minute, [Aunt Lovisa’s Sister] uses Kratom? Well that’s why she has been harassing everyone.” I was like, “What do you mean? How do you know?” He said that he has seen his friends on Kratom. They get preachy. They think their ideas are brilliant and important and they start telling other people what to do. This describes my sister’s behavior quite well. Before I got the protective order, she would randomly text me and other family members on a group text chastising one of us for something that she thought we needed to apologize for. I mean really horrible accusations. I would wake up to sometimes hundreds of texts from my sister threatening to assault me or accusing someone of a heinous deed. Sometimes her accusations have some truth and sometimes they are completely fabricated. It’s insane! Stay away from Kratom!
No worries, Miss Lovisa. It was more curiosity about what it was than any interest to ingest it. In 47 years I have tried pot three times and all those were all bad experiences, so I don’t use it anymore. I have no intention of using kratom. My wife and I have both given up smoking (cigarettes) though she does vape. I don’t need another addiction.
It was honestly disheartening the amount of warnings that were presented to a potential customer of kratom. It took us, as a country, what 5 decades before we acknowledged the dangers of smoking tobacco?
Don’t worry Miss Lovisa, while my drink maybe unhealthy for me, I am have no intention of trying anything else. The only reason I was there is because it was night time and my wife doesn’t like to go out at night alone, and I couldn’t drive.
Whew!
I’m finding the discussion about our LOs choosing us to be interesting. We don’t always know what makes someone an LO versus a garden variety crush versus just someone we find attractive, but I think that whole idea they might find us attractive is part of it. However, it isn’t enough on its own. Sometimes it feels to me like some level of uncertainty is necessary as well. A female friend recently told me one of her friends “has the hots” for me. I was legitimately flattered (not in a condescending way), but I was a little taken aback by the forward nature of someone wanting her friend to tell a married man she is attracted to him in a big way. It freaked me out frankly. The woman isn’t bad looking, but there is no chance of limerence for me with her, or even a simple crush. I don’t have to guess about the attraction with this lady, unlike LOs 1-3, who showed me a bit of validation but weren’t too forward or obvious in their flirtation. I’m starting to think LO #3 may have just been being polite.
I haven’t seen LO #3 in four months again. For certain reasons, she hasn’t been hanging out in our local area lately, but I also get the feeling she is avoiding me. I really miss her. Frankly, I cried a couple of times about her today. Basically all of my friends know I like her now. But I have been thinking more and more that she doesn’t care about me at all. She still checked our group chat fairly regularly, but sometimes I thought it was because she wanted to know where I would be so she could avoid being there. I was obsessively checking the chat, even checking hourly at times, just to see if she had been on there and saw my comments — even though she very rarely contributed (I’m talking once or twice a year at most). It was getting so that it was even affecting my work performance.
It really hurt to have to do this, but I left that group chat today. I also unfollowed her best friend (no need to do that with LO #3 because she never accepted my friend request even after getting along with each other so well and spending a lot of one-on-one time together when we did see each other). I rarely message LO #3, but I am thinking about blocking her entirely so her picture doesn’t come up in the “People you may know” suggestions. All of this feels too extreme, but I’m starting to think no contact might be for the best.
Obviously she wants no part of my wish to establish a friendship that might turn into something more if and when my marriage ends. She probably thinks I’m a philandering creep who just wants to get her into bed. I was hoping she would understand I’m just looking for friendship for the time being and don’t want to put her in any kind of awkward situation. I was also hoping she would understand that my marriage is totally and utterly on the rocks and that I’ve been transparent with my wife about this, yet my wife refuses to let me go (please, I don’t want to discuss my marriage right now; this is about my LO). I know I have nothing to offer this lady right now beyond friendship, but it doesn’t look like I will even ever have that. So, I’m going no contact. This hurts like hell, but I’m hoping it will help me get over her. Just wait and see though; this is probably when she’ll end up coming back into my life and showing up to one of our nights out!
Vicarious,
“I don’t have to guess about the attraction with this lady,”
Is this woman single? For me, I don’t want to guess if the LO is attracted to not. I want the interest verified. Some people flirt with everyone.
My uncertainty comes from not knowing if the LO will do anything about his attraction.
She is single. I don’t know if she is exactly my type, but she is not bad looking. With me, I think uncertainty can drive limerence. I can like someone and be attracted to her — and it’s a massive boost to the ego to know someone is into you — but there is something about that little bit of uncertainty that drives limerence for me. I need some type of validation to become limerent, but it doesn’t have to be much. I also think that morals are important to me. I am married (very unhappily so), and there is a certain line I will not cross. I was a little taken aback by how forward she was. When I met her afterwards I barely spoke to her. I didn’t know what to say. It also didn’t help that I was hammered that night.
It’s sort of similar with my two “glimmery friends.” Somehow it never turned into full-blown limerence with either of them. Glimmery Friend #1 (a married woman who made it clear she’d had an affair) flirted quite shamelessly with me a couple of years back. She left very little to the imagination. She even confirmed that she was flirting with me. I don’t know if she was legitimately interested, just having fun, stroking her ego or even mocking me, but it was pretty obvious. Nevertheless, I never let it go anywhere. I wouldn’t cheat, and somehow her extreme politics and the fact she is married stopped me from being limerent for her. Interestingly enough, I just had some one-on-one time with her the other night after our other friends went home. It was the first time in a long time.
Glimmery Friend #2 isn’t someone I think I’d ever become limerent for either, but she has shown me definite signs too (although not as obvious as Glimmery Friend #1). She frequents a certain pub I used to go to, and I remember going back years (before I met her) that every time I looked over at her to check her out she was looking at me too. She has been very friendly with me recently, but she is on again, off again with the guy she’s been dating. This lady is an archetype that would satisfy a certain fantasy I have. I’m a white collar corporate guy with no ink or anything like that, but this is a heavily tattooed biker chick. She is very nice looking, successful and a decent person, but she is so different from me. Opposites attract maybe? Still, I can’t see becoming limerent for her. I don’t know if she would be a good fit for a serious relationship, but I bet she’d be fun. Sigh, if only I were single!
MJ’s favorite part of his work day. Lmao
https://imgur.com/a/WKQJqo2
That’s funny because we do have a mexican food truck that stops by work a few nights during the week. I don’t go often, but I do like admiring the friendly Latinas when I make the walk and they are there.
Ol Girl looks pretty good there, but she’s still not a guerita.. Not like my LO who is a Guerita Hermosa y Muy Caliente!! 😆😂🤣
Thank you for kind and empathetic response.
Because we definitely *were* friends, even if our motivations may have been different, for such a long time, it genuinely feels like a death. But she’s still there… beautiful and intoxicating. So a ghost then. A relentless haunting.
I’m so scared of the ghost, of the new version, that I fear seeing her, fear any engagement because of the spiraling, crushing pain. As if the hope/uncertainty trope has gone completely haywire and the only possible outcome of any interaction with her is utter agony.
My brain has turned her into a monster.
She’s just a person. A normal person.
Phil,
“the only possible outcome of any interaction with her is utter agony.
My brain has turned her into a monster.
She’s just a person. A normal person”
This sounds really painful for you. We’ve talked before and you know I wasn’t facing the same problem you are, that of LO partnering up. In my case, a while ago there was more of a threat that my LE was going to crash me into the buffers. That’s just context, but the point in common with you is that I knew then that I/we had to act to pull back, for the sake of myself and my SO.
To move my friendship with LO down to a more appropriate level, I found I had to do a variation of this ‘monstering’ for a while. I didn’t want to, but it happened. I don’t think it was as painful and deep as yours, but it was tough all the same. I got right to the brink of ‘I can’t face going to the work environment where she’ll be’.
So I get it.
What’s your potential for getting away from her to NC or bare minimum LC while this plays out – even if just for a few weeks? It sounds like you might need that total separation for now.
I hope and think that these feelings about her should be a phase you have to play out, on the way to a new normal, rather than a permanent state. Even if the feelings are more permanent, their impact on you should lessen eventually – especially with minimal contact.
Sending good wishes your way.
Hey LaR – thanks for another kind response.
I’m trying to reduce contact as much as possible but our work lives are entangled.
I saw her a week ago and it was horrific, so I’m resolving to simply avoid as much in person contact as possible. Our work is a hybrid mix of wfh and office, and you can see who has booked desks where and when. So I have options.
I’m a senior manager so it’s weird for me to hide from the office, but I don’t think I have a choice in the short term now.
I’m off work this week anyway, sleeping a bit better because of it, and you’re absolutely right – hopefully this burning, jagged intensity will dim in due course, even if the dull ache doesn’t.
Thanks again 🙂
“I fear seeing her, fear any engagement because of the spiraling, crushing pain. As if the hope/uncertainty trope has gone completely haywire and the only possible outcome of any interaction with her is utter agony.”
This is a terrible, awful feeling. I empathize with you completely here friend. I went through this phase during my first true limerent episode. I cried for weeks and weeks over her transfer to our facility next door. I missed seeing her everyday and the dopamine I would get just from seeing her and maybe some eye contact.
Something that helped me in the sadness was, I ended up doing a lot of writing and spilling my feelings out in the form of poetry on to paper to LO. I’ve never given them to her and I probably never will, but it was a good release to be sad and cry and let all those feelings spill out on to pages and pages of words dedicated to her.
What’s even crazier then is I ended up meeting another younger co-worker about 9 months after the first LE. I started crushing hard on her hoping she would lift me out of limerent funk. I tried hard not to go full LE on her, but looking back, it had a lot of limerent-like qualities to it. Now here we are two years later and I somehow have managed to screw up a perfectly good friendship with this person. All at the hands of most likely limerence, that made me do dumb and stupid things.
It is through these harder moments we learn hopefully how to love without letting it get the best of us. I’m trying to make better decisions. I wish you well, wherever your heart takes you. I know it’s hard but you hit the nail on the head. She’s just a person. A normal person.
You already get it..
I want to make a comment about something L.E. said above about LO being a narcissist, which reminded me of many things I read on a Narcissism Recovery board, which was mainly for ex-wives of controlling, abusive men.
I mentioned something called the Idealization/Devaluation Triangle, where the Narcissist is at the top of the triangle, his favored person is in one corner, and you are in the disfavored corner. I was told that the only way to get out of the triangle is to absent yourself.
My ex-husband dumped me after 20 years of marriage and married someone else. We had to communicate because we had children. I found the dynamics of the triangle to be accurate–my Ex, at the top of the triangle, would idealize his new wife and brag about her. Meanwhile, he would tear me down in every way possible. I realized that the best thing to do was to stay out of the damn triangle.
If my Ex needed to run somebody down, he would have to put a different person in that corner, because I was not playing.
I did later hear that he treated his new wife exactly the same way he had treated me. So there.
I can see where LO puts his mother in the idealization corner. I can also see where LO puts his neighbor in the idealization corner. Even though she seems to be out of her mind and falsely told him that a dog had died, who was actually fine, he defends her.
So I have to ask myself, how much do I really want to be in LO’s “disfavored” corner?
ND,
It sounds like you understand things very well.
So, how do you get out and stay out? What attracts you to Narcs? Where’s the payoff for you? There has to be one.
Those questions can be the tip of one very big iceberg. I seemed to be attracted to Borderline Waifs providing they were the victims of bad luck vice bad judgment thus worthy of my sympathy and attention. Once I understood that apparent bad luck is often the product of bad judgment, a whole lot of things started to make sense. Some Borderline Waifs were too messy for even me to put up with. Never get involved with someone who has more problems than you do.
It took years and two therapists to figure out that was because of my mother and my grandmother who raised me. Mom was the waif and my grandmother overlaid the lens of worthiness. My grandmother didn’t have much tolerance for perceived moral shortcomings and was not usually shy about expressing it.
To L.E.:
I find myself attracted to “take charge” men. I don’t know why. I don’t even know if it matters at this point in my life. I am not looking to date.
ND,
Who said anything about dating?
You’re here posting about an LO who treats you like he’s a cat playing with a half dead mouse.
It matters.
To L.E.:
I was just thinking that LO will be gone soon, and I doubt that this will happen again. I have been divorced for almost 25 years, have not been on a date, and have not had a crush on anyone until this strange episode.
I don’t think what you have is a crush. NC with a crush is not nearly as difficult as NC with an LO.
“While there are certainly elements in common, crushes tend to come and go with little lasting psychological impact. In contrast, limerence is distinguished by the involuntary and debilitating nature of the experience once it has taken hold.” – Dr. L
To Sapiens:
I guess I worded my sentence awkwardly. What I meant to say is that I have not developed an interest in anyone since my divorce until LO came along, and that has been many years. Since I am not dating and don’t get out much, it’s less likely that I will become limerent for anyone than if I were more active socially.
Narc abuse definitely happens among friends, too. Basically, any relationship can have it.
To Serial Limerent:
Thank you for reminding me of that fact.
Hey MJ – thank you for the kind words and advice. I am in therapy currently and last time they told me to set aside 10 minutes every now and then for a really big cry. I sat down on Saturday and had a big old lovely self pitying blub 😊
No idea if it made any difference, but every little helps eh? More exercise, more presence, more understanding of my f*cked up little brain… which perhaps I hadn’t tried hard enough to do before.
The pain is incredible but if I can do one thing, it’s to somehow try and take a better, happier step forward each day, no matter how small and no matter how many times I fall back in some all-consuming way I didn’t see coming.
She’s just a person.
Phil
Nothing wrong with a good cry. At least for me it can be cathartic. My current life situations bring me down quite often. I have an aging Father with Parkinsons, that I help take care of and I’ve been divorced since 2011. I don’t know if I’ve ever fully recovered from that. My Daughter was bitter about it for what seemed like forever. Her and I weren’t getting along for the longest time but that situation has somewhat improved in the last year.
I was out of the dating scene for awhile, up until about 2018. I finally started getting back in the game and found out it’s nothing like it was when I was sowing my oats in the 90s. My last relationship lasted from about 2019 to 2021. (Even then I think it was only a situationship.) Currently I’m 54 and the younger Co-Workers I’ve been enamored with in the last 3 years are both 30. For me it’s just hard to truly have any sort of real dating life in my conditions, so I work a lot. Or as much as I am able to withstand. Probably not a workaholic, but I really don’t mind my job and it’s helpful there are virtually Ladies of all ages all over the place there.
I think you somewhat get and understand how befuddling limerence actually is. It really caused me a lot of deep introspect. Also a lot questioning God and timing of events. Helpful I suppose with getting me more in touch with my faith. But I’m still pretty miserable most of the time I think. Sometimes it even feels like I’m on Auto-Pilot because I have no clue what I’m doing or where I’m headed. I have goals but being alone in reaching those goals is not really how I want it to go. I’m really only looking to have a cup of coffee with a Lady, but that too seems like a far-fetched reality at this point. Hence the limerence and its all-consuming sadness. What a terrible thing. I wouldn’t wish it upon anyone.
I’m really sorry you’re struggling and yes, at we can share experiences and no we are not alone.
HAVE you tried therapy? Do you exercise? I’m sorry if I’ve missed this. I’m trying to get fitter, including classes, and it helps get me out of funks if only temporarily.
I’m battling anxiety and have, up to a point, all my life. ‘Love addiction’ appears to be the biggest trigger, but not necessarily the only one.
I went to the gym yesterday evening and felt genuinely elated when I got home. Being physically well isn’t a magic bullet, but it has to help.
Phil,
I have not had the best luck down the therapy route. I posted about it a few years ago here, but basically I ended up being rejected by 2 Therapists.
One who didn’t seem to have her head screwed on right about my issues, namely limerence. She didn’t seem to understand the concept or any of my definitions about it and didn’t seem to want to try to understand it.. Then blamed it on alcoholism. Which right there, threw the whole game off balance because not once had I ever disclosed having an alcohol addiction to her. So I knew right out the gate, she was confused about her clientele and their problems. She then also cited my insurance wasn’t getting back to her about co-pays and stuff which also was straight horse$#!+. She just didn’t want to deal with me and should’ve said so in the first place. I went back and forth with her for about a month but I gave up.
The other Therapist I reached out to was an intake Therapist who worked for a network that included at least 75+ Therapists. This intake meeting was about finding me the right fit with the right Therapist. In which she too seem befuddled about limerence and referred to it as obsessive-compulsive disorder. It was almost like I was speaking a foreign language to her. I could tell she easily was not picking up, what I was putting down. So we went round and round and one of my other issues was I didn’t want to do teletherapy and she kept insisting on it. I told her I won’t do that. Because of my work schedule at the time, I was hoping to get a live evening appointment with an actual live Therapist. She said she would see if there was an available Therapist who could accommodate me. 2 weeks later she reached out and said there was not. And so I asked how is it possible in a network of 75+ Therapists, in 5 different area locations, that not a single one could see me in the evening. Ever. She didn’t have an answer. So I said to hell with it.
That was 2023. Right after LO left and I was damn near suicidal. I had mentioned this to both of them, but neither of them seemed to care. To me this proved that even in a desperate moment, all Therapy wants is the money and doesn’t give a hot damn about anything before it’s all laid out in how it will ever get there.
At this point I am still indifferent about going. To me, therapy is all about paying someone to validate my feelings anyway and I don’t have time for that. Nor do I want to waste the money. I work in a major Big City. I have looked around for a limerence-based Therapist but in the Big City, it seems very costly. Plus I also need to check into the insurance factor again. I’m just bitter about the whole thing and so not interested in investigating it right now. It would mean more scheduling caretaking for Dad while I’m away at it, so the whole idea doesn’t even seem plausible at the moment.
For now I see a Priest about once a month, who doesn’t charge a thing. I do pray and keep my faith as somewhat of a backbone but I struggle. Not gonna lie. Life events are kicking my a$$, but I have to remember gratitude and how far I’ve come since I’ve made such a mess of everything..
To Phil:
I don’t have anything brilliant to contribute. I just want to say I am glad you’re in therapy and I wish peace of mind for you.
Adam,
I can no longer find your reply where you explained how you think LO chose you.
But I did read it, and I understood that time – thank you. It feels like she saw the potential for safety and gentlemanly treatment from you, and that probably kicked it up a notch in both your situations at the time.
It’s bad how all the rest of them at your workplace still gossip about her being your favourite. There is a bit of unwelcome attention from others at work to LO and my friendship, but it is usually minor – in good humor and easy enough to bat away. People shouldn’t use these things to make coworkers feel bad, especially if (like in both cases) nothing to speak of is happening.
I think you and L.E. found a really good amalgam of what happened between us. I remember telling L.E. that once (when she was still working there) she started seeing someone, she seemed to simultaneously reach out to me more while making a concerted effort that I never met her gentleman friend face to face even when he would come to visit her at work. L.E. said she was “keeping me in her orbit in case it didn’t work out with him.” While I agree L.E. was right, I think you nailed it better that it wasn’t in a romantic capacity but in a masculine capacity. Father figure maybe? She didn’t talk about her childhood much but what she did, it didn’t seem it was good most of the time.
Don’t sweat that LaR. We just hired a new gal in accounting last week so she’s fairly in the dark (depending on how much my other co-workers talk) about my history here. The other gal that has been here two years now does do it mostly in good fun. My boss does it because he knows it pushes my buttons and I let it get to me. So I am as much at fault as he is for taking his bait. I still struggle that she isn’t perfect. And he knows it.
Adam,
I think it all sounds really plausible. I don’t think it is masses different to my LO’s motivation. Less of a father figure thing (age gap is small and she is very self sufficient), but still a ‘safe person’ thing. She’s been through plenty $h1t with the male of the species and pretty much knows I won’t put her through any more of it. The fact I’m in a committed LTR increases the ‘safe’ feel of it. A lot of that sounds true of you and your LO too.
I do agree with L.E. that she knew what she was doing.
But also – this place can get far into LO-bashing at times, but I always think in these situations, how many LOs wouldn’t struggle to take what we’re offering them, if that’s our best sides with no need to commit or get into messy stuff? If you’re still square with a mostly positive view of her, I’d say that’s good on balance.
LaR
“She’s been through plenty $h1t with the male of the species and pretty much knows I won’t put her through any more of it. The fact I’m in a committed LTR increases the ‘safe’ feel of it. A lot of that sounds true of you and your LO too.”
That’s a good observation. LO too had not had good luck with members of our gender and I was very determined to show her how men should treat women, due to her difficulties in life.
I think both our LOs knew we weren’t going to blow up our LTR, but did enjoy being treated respectfully and with dignity. Yours just happens to still be around. But you seem to be handling it with a great balance of friendliness but with boundaries you both seem to respect.
My hope is that LO and her daughter have found a man to be safe, loved and respected with. I haven’t been told any new news but back in May when I was visiting that location, I found out that she engaged to a man that she has been dating. That seems like a good place to be for her. I am very happy for her and her daughter. Who yikes is not a girl anymore. By now she’s around 19-20. She was 15 the first time I met her in 2000. Just in case my math is off lol
Thanks Adam,
WRT the handling it with a balance of friendship and boundaries, most of the time I now feel OK with that. It is a very fine calibration that can send the whole thing out of whack if it moves one way or other, but thankfully lately that has happened only on odd days, not more. The LE used to cause me a lot of pain when my boundaries were way off.
I suspect it is now in the sort of well-practised holding pattern you had leading up to your LO leaving the workplace.
Reading your bits about the pain it caused you when she left, and other stories from people about when their LO paired off, makes me want to do more to prepare for both things in advance. Like I want to process some of it while she is still around rather than all afterwards. As that’s bound to be a new difficult phase, based on your experience.
I’m glad you feel Ok about her engagement. Hopefully she has her head screwed on about man choice now. It’s admirable how you just want her to be happy. Like others have told you before, if she does make a bad choice it isn’t anything you can control or feel responsible for – though I appreciate that’s a hard bit to swallow. I am much better no doubt at telling you that, than I would be at applying it to my situation.
LaR
“Reading your bits about the pain it caused you when she left”
I’ll try to get the gist of this quote I saw somewhere on the internet at some point; “You ever love someone so much that you’ll just settle for being friends just to keep them in your life?” And I’ll leave it at that.
“Like others have told you before, if she does make a bad choice it isn’t anything you can control or feel responsible for – though I appreciate that’s a hard bit to swallow.”
Let’s hope for the sake of her and her daughter’s happiness and my sanity it does work out. Or if it doesn’t I never find out. For whatever reason I can no longer find her on Facebook anymore. And as ashamed I am to admit it, I have not found her on any other social media. (Though that bad search choice happened a long time ago.) I only have to hope my co-workers stop giving me unsolicited updates on her life.
Because if I found that out, LaR, it would break me. As if I am not already broken enough. All the “what ifs” and “shoulda, coulda, wouldas” would come flooding in and I would without a doubt carry the burden of my failure to her to my grave.
I guess I need to listen to my wife more often; “Baby you can’t make up or erase the wrong things men have done to every woman.”
I get how you feel Brother. You arrived at meeting her with nothing but good intent. Then it became something else. I know you want and hope the best for her. That is to be respected. Keep praying for her too. In time, if it’s meant to be, your paths will cross again.
Be grateful for what you got and what she left you with. At least it was on good terms. You could be like me, and have a lovely LO you never met and another Lady Friend that kicked you to the curb, once you told her something, you didn’t even have to tell her in the first place. Ruining a perfectly good friendship. All because us Men are never satisfied enough.
I’m telling you, it is so embarrassing sometimes.. I feel like going out and living under a rock. I’m just pathetic. Nothing more needs to be said..
Adam,
Your wife is wise and they are good words to listen to. No need to assume the worst anyway – like you say, from the info you have she’s made a decent choice for her and her daughter.
“You ever love someone so much that you’ll just settle for being friends just to keep them in your life?” And I’ll leave it at that.”
I think you probably guessed this, but you are pushing at a wide open door here with me on this point.
MJ,
“you told her something, you didn’t even have to tell her in the first place. Ruining a perfectly good friendship.”
Now listen Sir MJ – if it is a perfectly good friendship, then they have to be able to know and tolerate us, good and bad sides together. We all have both. So you haven’t ruined it – what happened is on LF that she has reacted like she did, not on you for telling her.
LaR
You are right, she is a very wise woman. And very understanding of this whole debacle. But it is on me to shake this hero complex. Between some videos on youtube on stoicism and Miss Snow I am trying to adapt to that way of living. Especially in my dealing with my female relationships. I can’t and don’t need to save every woman that comes into my life.
Sorry about that. Certainly didn’t mean to swing that door open too wide.
My Brother
“Keep praying for her too.”
“Be grateful for what you got and what she left you with.”
Very good advice. I was, while devastated, touched that she personally called me to tell her she was quitting. She didn’t have to do that. She easily could have just disappeared. But she was honest with me and treated me with grace by letting me spend her last day on the job with her. Her daughter was even there too, so I got to say goodbye to her too. Some truly amazing women.
“They have to be able to know and tolerate us, good and bad sides together. We all have both. What happened is on LF that she has reacted like she did, not on you for telling her.”
LaR,
You see that’s just it. I don’t know what we had. Obviously it wasn’t even a friendship if it was so easy to just toss aside. A part of of me is really irritated and the better part of me says to stop giving her brain space. That she’s not worth it. Fighting it because I still find her super attractive. I just gotta stop man. Plain and simple. There are better fish in the sea.
Thank you Friend..
Thank you Norma – that still means alot to me.
The therapy is going down a ‘self-worth’ route. We’re trying to understand my lifelong need for validation and reassurance – primarily, it seems, from almost any woman I ever meet who I find even slightly attractive (ugh).
My LO used to joke (in good humour, genuinely) about me being needy. Not specifically in relation to her but just a generic need for attention.
She had a point!
To Phil:
I guess if we weren’t needy, we wouldn’t be here.
I hope you continue to improve.
Thank you Norma.
Setback today… my daughter follows LO on insta – “wow lots of couple content from *****!”
I had to look.
“Three photos for three months”
“Family selfie” (them and his dog).
Three months!! I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.
Yes I know. Absolutely none of my business. But yet another crash…
To Phil:
At least you’re honest with yourself. Because it would be easy to rationalize this away. If you aren’t in touch with your own feelings, you aren’t going to be able to recover.
Do you ever worry that your LO knows about limerence, maybe because LO is a limerent, too, and knows who you are on this site? I feel some concern about this. Call me a trifle paranoid… I can take it.
I’ve always hoped if my LO knew, she would be only slightly horrified and yet somewhat flattered, all at the same time.
To Sapiens:
My LO knows I have a crush on him, because I told him right up front. I have never used the word limerence and I have not gone into any detail.
He says he is flattered by my crush and it doesn’t bother him at all.
However, I don’t believe that, because he has twice accused me of trying to make him feel guilty, which had never even entered my mind. He started arguments over innocent comments I made that meant nothing, so I am very wary of what I say.
As much as I would like for him to understand my feelings better, I say nothing. I fear he would twist anything I said around and use the information to blame me for something.
I think less is more in this instance. I have never elaborated, and I think the fewer details I give him, the better.
Settle down, Sapiens. The odds of your LO stumbling across LWL are small. The chance that your LO wanders to LWL AND reads through the comments section AND recognizes you are almost zero. I don’t think it’s ever happened. If it has happened, the LO hasn’t revealed themselves to our community.
Sapiens 🦍,
I think it does worry many people – it has worried me. But … I think many limerents like to kid themselves that their LO is obsessing as much over them as vice versa. And as a result they think they might be here.
I think it is pretty unlikely. Like Lovisa says, there has never been a revealed case of it here. DrL once wrote too that our limerent circumstances aren’t as unique as we might think … so even as someone who has shared quite a lot of my story (albeit very scattered about), if that story was found it could still be one that applies to hundreds or thousands of other people.
On the other side of the coin, if I Google search in everyday language some of the stuff that churns through a limerent’s head, without using the word ‘limerence’ (as only a niche few know the word), LwL links nowadays come quite high in searches. But Google tends to point me at much older posts, from long before my time commenting here. Another thing is, I don’t know about you but when I started here I just focused on reading loads of DrL’s old posts. I was less worried about the comment sections, and didn’t cotton on to the ‘recent comments’ bit for ages. Which is my way of saying that I think it would take a good while of dedication for a ‘new arrival’ to go scouring newer comments too much.
I think the danger is quite minimal really, but I have worried about it just as you are.
Earlier this week, I got a message from my LO with an open-ended question. I responded, briefly. But it threw me off balance for several hours.
I felt like I was being tested, and not just by myself. How would I respond directly, and would I post the latest play-by-play in a way that made me identifiable?
I do miss chatting with my LO, but I have committed to giving it up. I only respond, 12 hours later, so as not to be a jerk. I think that if we lived closer, and actually met in person from time to time, we could be friends. My LO has said that my attraction is most likely a result of never seeing each other in person and imagining someone suspended in time, without aging.
I have had classmates from 15-20 years ago do this to me, too. For example, one I had a strong mutual attraction with (though it never progressed beyond kissing while dancing at clubs) got in touch a few weeks before getting married and asked me if I wanted to intervene. I declined and said that 25-year-old me did not exist anymore anyway.
Something close to loathing my middle-aged body and wishing to be in my 20s again is definitely a factor in my limerence.
Your last point really resonates. I am definitely trying to claw back youth through my LO/LE. Filling the gaps of missed opportunities from decades ago, trying to tell my needy brain that I’ve still ‘got it’ even though it should absolutely not be important let alone a priority urge.
I am re-reading a book I bought years ago, called “No Visible Wounds,” about women in abusive relationships that didn’t involve physical beatings.
My ex-husband was a master at this: emotionally and sexually withholding, controlling the money, trying to control where I went (at times), and flying into rages over miniscule incidents. He was a very difficult man.
I decided to give the book to the Little Free Library near my house. Before I do so, I am re-reading a part of it, and could not help but notice that LO is similar. Obviously we have no intimate relationship, so the issues about family, kids, money and sex don’t apply.
However, I realized that in the area of losing his temper over a nothing-burger, blaming it on stress, then apologizing and saying it will never happen again–well, let’s just say that my ex and LO are twins separated at birth.
I can remember my ex going berserk and screaming at me because the Sunday newspaper was delivered late one time. This is very similar to LO going nuts because I innocently used the word “grumpy,” which he dislikes.
Both of them screaming bloody murder at me, while I just stood there, bewildered.
And I started thinking, LO and I aren’t even that close of friends. If he acts like a crazy husband with me, what does he act like with an actual partner?
If anecdotal evidence and clinical literature are correct, his behavior will be the same with an actual partner.
That’s why clinical narcissism is considered a “personality disorder.”
But why would it be so bad with ME? I’m just a neighbor.
Things get a lot more heated between intimate partners.
Because he knows he can behave this way with you and get away with it. So he does.
If he spoke to me that way I would tell him it’s not acceptable and leave.
If he did it again I would tell him to ‘f@*# off’
Probably best not to spend time trying to ‘work out’ why he acts this way or that way.
It’s all out of your control and it’s not your role to ‘better’ him.
Let’s focus on Norma.
It might be bad with you because you have told him that you have a crush on him and he has responded that he is ok with it. I don’t recall if you shared his exact response, but “ok” implies tolerance, which can vary day to day. Some days your attention to him may be appreciated. Some days it may be unwanted.
Does he approach you to interact in this manner? I don’t think you’ve shared a story of how he showed up at your door just to be a jerk to you. You can stop approaching him any time. He’s “just a neighbor.”
Picking up from my last comment in No Contack Checklist, which has now closed.
Recall that after LO’s return to office last month, things had changed dramatically between me and her, with the LO flipping from being always warm and welcoming to being cold and distant. With my option to do nearly unlimited remote work, I had decided to go nearly NC, going there in person only if specifically invited by my team (which is not LO’s team). Well, yesterday I did go to the office. I kept my visit as brief as possible, and was in the same room as LO for under an hour. I was debating whether to at least drop by her space and say “hello” but, in keeping with my no-contact resolution, decided against it.
I guess I’m generally proud I held to my resolution, but have a renewed sadness, and am still reeling at the dramatic reversal in our “relationship”. I thought I could fast-forward my recovery from this LE, but, after over a month, it is clear that recovery is going to be slow. During the period, I have come to see both LO and myself in a very different light. I have been trying to devalue LO in an effort to knock her off her pedestal. However, that effort has been only partially successful, and I still admire her enormously. That, combined with her newly aloof behavior, is what makes me so sad, even though her aloofness might be in response to my own. The urge to speak with the LO, however briefly, is still rather high.
I am so determined to get out of this LE and live a purposeful life. Thinks for reading.
I love this forum, and have been following the recent threads, but have not had time to respond, and will do so shortly.
To CatCyclist:
Your story reads like an engaging soap opera. But who wants to be the star of their own soap opera?
You did the right thing. You’d think her aloof behavior would help, but it increases your pain.
Thank goodness you can do remote work.
Norma,
And I don’t even like soap operas!
As for the pain, it will be temporary, and hopefully will speed up the recovery process!
Good luck on keeping up your progress on making your LO less important. I’m very happy for you with your recent moves.
If she is anything like my Lady Friend was, then whatever hope you may have over speaking with her, will probably not pan out in a way you hope it will. Which will only cause you more sadness. I get why you want to but don’t believe this is going to be a solution to your problems.
The only reason I approached my LF was because she said a few words to me in passing one night at work and so I caved and went over to go see her a few nights later. I went into it thinking I had always given this Woman the benefit of the doubt every time. And every time, I was let down. So I almost expected it again and that is exactly what I got..
She basically told me to stay in my lane, so don’t get too friendly. The more I thought about it, the more angry I got. I mean I’m 54 years old and she’s only 30. Can she really talk to me that way and make me feel that miniscule?? Well yes infact she can and did. So I’m the fool for allowing it.
Perhaps the best strategy for you is to keep standing by your strict NC. LO may be feeling your lack of attention, which may be off-putting to her and so that’s why she’s being aloof.
LF and I both admitted to avoiding each other while I was in strict LC. The reason she tries to keep the peace with me is she doesn’t like making things awkward between us, since we have to work together. Which I get. Sometimes I think she misses our friendship, but after her telling me she’s basically in a relationship now, and the way in which she said it, it’s clear my presence, friendship, (orbiting as it was) meant very little.
My guess is your LO has other things going on, which puts you on the backburner. Not admiring her is hard. It takes time and I am just coming into this phase somewhat myself. LF is very attractive to me still, but there really are other fish in the sea. I’ve since met somebody else, which helps shift the focus elsewhere. You are in a position to where you don’t have to see LO every day, so use this to your advantage.
I would say wait things out and see if she makes a move to eventually talk. Its too bad things have turned out like this and I’m sorry for you that they have. You two did seem to have a good friendship. For your sake I hope things will work out for the better at some point, so you can be a little more at peace with this person, when she is around.
Thank you MJ, this sounds like great advice. I’ll refer to it to help me keep my resolve!
Good luck with your lady friend as well!
“That, combined with her newly aloof behavior, is what makes me so sad, even though her aloofness might be in response to my own. The urge to speak with the LO, however briefly, is still rather high.”
Oh man, that is my situation too. We were friends, so close – a real bond. But she is now head over heels for someone else, I backed away from the friendship, and the awkward chill between is pure grief.
I thought I was doing the right thing and we still talk occasionally for work. But it is all so stiff and formal. The cheekiness, teasing, ribbing, laughing has all evaporated.
I miss it terribly.
I really empathize with your loss.
The important thing is to maintain your dignity and integrity through all this.
Marcia,
I’m finally conceded the scrolling and am restarting down here.
“I find that guys are either pushing to meet up too soon … as in within the first few messages …”
I’d guess you have more respect for men who are that way, that the endless delayer types?
A friend once told me about an online app guy who wrote to her ‘can we just skip all this boring pre-talk and jump straight to arranging a date?’. But the guy was a known celebrity at the time, so he could get away with it. That story is quite interesting in itself – apparently he was fed up with the circles he moved in as a celeb, so went on dating sites to meet normal people.
“Or they take forever to get around to asking and aren’t clear about where and when. Could even be the day of the date … and you still don’t know what the heck is happening.”
They’re probably not telling you because they haven’t figured it out themselves! But it shows a lack of basic respect and would be a red flag.
“But at least you know the people on there are more than likely available … it’s harder to meet available people the older you get. I wouldn’t rule it out”
I do really get that.
“But why didn’t she pursue it with him? Was that her choice or his?”
I chose not to ask. I chose to focus on the outcome, rather than the reasons why. It would have been very different if she’d done that after we’d confirmed exclusivity.
“Idk. I would have questioned why someone told me that.”
If it wasn’t for reasons of trust/honesty, then why else? One-upmanship? To let me know I was in competition?
[“She was playing out her past on me. She’d likely say the same was true the other way round”]
“But don’t we all do that?”
To an extent, but she was other-level.
[“Singularly my worst relationship, that one.”]
“Was she the one you’d say you were most limerent for in the beginning?”
She’s the one I’ve referred to limerence-like feelings with, yeah.
But what’s notable isn’t that it was like that at the beginning. It’s that ongoing, I felt the negative sides associated with frustrated limerence, even though she was an SO. And I slipped into worse self-talk and sometimes silly actions than I have even in my LEs.
She could induce uncertainty (not in a fun way, in a mean way) like nobody else I’ve ever been with.
You might ask me – ‘but didn’t that keep you coming back for more?’. Answer – that had a limited shelf-life – I ended it with her because I was fed up of so much uncertainty and drama. She continued the drama afterwards until I blocked her.
[“No. I said to SO that I thought I was falling hard for her (which was true).”]
“How did she respond?”
A bit shocked at first, but warmed to it pretty fast. I hope it didn’t come across too much like love-bombing. She still occasionally refers to the conversation fondly. Maybe I’ll ask her again what she thought about it if an opportunity comes up.
“I have to admit … I don’t understand that. To me, limerence is about projection. Fantasy.”
For me as well as many on this site, limerence seems to be more about the emotional side than the sexual. I could trace a curve over two years of the levels that I wanted emotional involvement with LO. For about the top six months of that curve, there was a strong sexual fantasy side too. Either side of that, it was minor. The emotional side started first and hung around a lot longer.
“I could never become limerent for one of my guy friends”
Might well be how my LO thinks too!
“The sex they’d had, were having, how they seduced women, etc. I knew their secrets.”
I know far too much of that, to be fair. But I don’t give much of myself away in that respect – I prefer listening to talking, like I’ve told you before.
“To an extent. But I also think people overestimate how often mutual attraction and interest happen. I’m not talking about flirting but genuine interest.”
As we get older, that does get harder to find. But I also think a lot of it is getting squashed or hidden by the pc-culture.
LaR,
[“I find that guys are either pushing to meet up too soon … as in within the first few messages …”]
“I’d guess you have more respect for men who are that way, that the endless delayer types?”
I wasn’t clear. You start out messaging on the site. If that goes well, you exchange cell phone numbers and text. Maybe you have a phone call. Then you have the date. None of this is etched in stone as a protocol, but I do think it’s odd to suggest meeting up when all you’ve exchanged is a couple of messages on the site. It seems a bit rushed. (Not that I want to be messaging for weeks on end.)
Oh boy. I started back on a dating site. I realized I had inadvertently clicked out of my likes and couldn’t get them back. And I didn’t really care.
“But the guy was a known celebrity at the time, so he could get away with it. ”
I think the only way this could work is if the woman was really interested. I was only on the site for a few weeks the last time I did it, but the only guy I was really interested in was the one I went out with a couple of times. I wasn’t really interested in the guy who wanted to meet up right away. And he wanted to meet up THAT day.
“They’re probably not telling you because they haven’t figured it out themselves! But it shows a lack of basic respect and would be a red flag.”
Or they’re not that interested or waiting around to see if a better offer materializes.
“If it wasn’t for reasons of trust/honesty, then why else? One-upmanship? To let me know I was in competition?”
Possibly all of the above. To make you jealous. To subtly push for something more serious.
And to me, if the other person is sought after, I already know. I can sense it. If you have to TELL someone … you’ve diluted the power of the message. Big time.
” It’s that ongoing, I felt the negative sides associated with frustrated limerence, even though she was an SO. ”
I was watching a video on this the other day. When you have a kind of toxic dynamic, you keep hitting reset on the beginning of the relationship. “I’m done! I’m not talking to you!” And then you DO end of up talking again. So things never settle into something calmer.
“Answer – that had a limited shelf-life –”
But it kept things hot for a while, right? 🙂
“I hope it didn’t come across too much like love-bombing. She still occasionally refers to the conversation fondly.”
Well, if it comes from a guy you really like and the timing is right, it can be wonderful.
” Maybe I’ll ask her again what she thought about it if an opportunity comes up.”
Yes, tell her your friend on the “Living with Limerence” website wants to know. 🙂
“The emotional side started first and hung around a lot longer.”
There’s definitely an emotional component with mine but it’s wrapped up in the sexual component, and the sexual component kicks things off. Is the driving force.
[“I could never become limerent for one of my guy friends”]
“Might well be how my LO thinks too!”
Well, I did hook up with a guy friend once. And I did start to see him differently. In more of a sexual/romantic context. It was probably the hormones.
“But I don’t give much of myself away in that respect – I prefer listening to talking, like I’ve told you before.”
I’m the same way. I listen and I ask questions. So people end up telling me a lot.
I have a small update on a story I posted about a couple of weeks ago.
If anyone remembers, I was concerned about a dog who had been hit right in front of LO’s house. My friend in a blue car was one of the two cars who hit the dog. He stopped, and the other car sped off. He was completely torn up.
The dog’s owners later called him and said the dog was fine. LO’s neighbor said the dog was dead. I was worried about the mental health of that neighbor.
LO and I both spoke to the dog owner last night, who confirmed that the dog indeed died. He said that the dog actually died at the scene and didn’t even make it to the vet.
They apparently called my friend because they felt so terrible about his mental state and told him a white lie to ease his mind. He had told me about hitting the dog and said he couldn’t eat or sleep. I actually think they did the right thing in sparing his feelings.
And speaking of LO, I did see him briefly last night, but was put off by his negative qualities, which are starting to bother me more and more. He says, “How are you?” in a tone that shows he isn’t waiting for a response, and then starts talking about himself.
Then he tells me that he took his mother out to dinner for her birthday to a fancy restaurant the previous night and must have eaten something that disagreed with him because he’s been sick all day. I noticed that I didn’t feel sorry for him because I was more focused on the enmeshment issues with him and his mother. Which is not to say he shouldn’t take her out, I am glad he treats her so well, but I have thought for years there is something excessive. He used to spend practically every weekend with her, even when she lived in her own home. Now that she has sold her home and moved in with him, it’s 24/7.
I did ask about the painting of mine he has had for 2-1/2 years. He said he spoke to the repair guy yesterday and asked him if he still had it! The guy said yes, it’s all wrapped up and waiting for you. OMG, he asked if it was still there?
I read this as a favorable update. You are approaching your LO with an attitude that is less reverent. Have you been able to get him out of your mind a bit more?
Too bad about the dog.
TO Sapiens:
I have not been able to get him out of my mind, but I am noticing that I am not daydreaming about him.
I am learning that dreams are setting me back quite a bit. Just three days ago, I was feeling nearly indifferent to LO, and it was glorious.
I was very put off by his cavalier attitude toward my painting. I thought, if I was one of his rich, fancy clients, with a rich, fancy painting, he would have moved heaven and earth to get it back to me in a timely fashion.
But I am a nobody with a worthless painting, so I wait 2-1/2 years, and there is no guarantee that I will ever get it at all.
The upside of the painting debacle is that I am turned off, big-time, which helps me with the overall limerence problem.
However, last night I dreamed that we were both in a pet store buying food for our cats. Neither one of us has a cat in real life. I don’t think anything meaningful happened in the dream, except that there was a horrifically long line, and we were both buying prescription food (?). Guess we both have imaginary cats with medical needs.
But the dream triggered that horrible longing somehow. Ugh.
LO has appeared three times in dreams this weekend and properly fired up the longing too.
On each occasion there was no meaningful engagement – she just looked spectacularly beautiful and entirely unattainable. All far too literal!
It’s pure addiction and the idealisation is wholly out of control. A juggernaut.
NC and the route to closure it may offer is impossible, so the current LC just feels like the worst of all worlds. I cannot move on (yet), so my brain appears fixed on turning her into the GREATEST AND MOST BEAUTIFUL PERSON THAT EVER EXISTED IN ALL ETERNITY.
It’s so tiring.
To Phil:
Thank you for your comments. This has to end, somehow. Hopefully sooner than later.
I just ran into LO at Starbucks. He is seething over his house issues. Frankly, I don’t blame him. He has just shown his house to two different prospective buyers in the last five days, neither of whom did their homework. Meaning, the configuration of the house is not suitable for them, which they could have figured out if they had just LOOKED at the pictures!!
So LO knocks himself out, preparing the house for viewing, and then the people are shocked when they finally see it, although they could have looked at the pictures and seen what was there.
LO’s problem is that he feels entitled. He says he’s worked hard all his life and he “deserves” for his housing situation to work out. As it is, the escrow on his new home is closing in two weeks and he doesn’t have the money.
I don’t like his sense of entitlement and I don’t feel sorry for him. Nobody made him buy a house in May when his own white elephant home was not even on the market. If he loses that house and his sizable deposit, it’s his own fault.
However, I DO understand his frustration with buyers who don’t look at the pictures before making an appointment, which turns out to be a fool’s errand.
“It’s pure addiction and the idealisation is wholly out of control. A juggernaut.”
“My brain appears fixed on turning her into the GREATEST AND MOST BEAUTIFUL PERSON THAT EVER EXISTED IN ALL ETERNITY.”
Phil
Yes it appears the limerence bug has bit you hard. I’m sorry you are struggling. I recently had a dream about my LO and she was the same stunning beauty as she’s always been. What was ironic is that I actually saw her the following day and she looked almost like she did in my dream. So crazy isn’t it??
NC is not always an overnight fix. You have to want to let the idea of her go. Plus you have to find other activities to distract you. Which may even include (dare I say it) meeting somebody else. You know there are plenty of attractive fish (Women) in the sea. Once you do this and maybe put some focus on them, the idea of having all the adoration and love for LO won’t seem so front and center. This is what has worked for me, but maybe for you it will look toally different.. I mean don’t get me wrong, I still find LO the most attractive, gorgeous and perfect Woman in the known Universe. God literally created a masterpiece with her.
Really no Woman I’ve met compares to LO looks, but the difference now is I’m not making LO my only goal. When I was in the worst of my LE was probably where you’re at right now. Where NC is virtually impossible. Seeing her and not longing for her is almost impossible. But I also know it was probably not ever going to be like I imagined it anyway.. That’s another big problem with being limerent and in an altered state of mind. We set ourselves up for something so grand, then when the bottom falls out, depression can hit us so hard and cut a huge emotional wound. Don’t let this happen to you. I got so bad at one point, after LE fallout, I almost considered suicide.. I had to talk and write and pray my way out. It was very difficult. .
So if you want to begin getting out, you need to clamp down and be strict about going LC. If it hurts that much, you might want to consider not going into the office anymore. The less actually seeing LO and moving on with other life activities will be very helpful for your mindset to change. But you have to want it..
Thanks so much MJ – all very helpful as usual.
LO was on a screen for a meeting earlier. Didn’t look as nice as I expected – a tiny win 😄
I’m already in a long and committed relationship with a wonderful LO and that is my focus. The shame is incredible and I could never tell her. But I know what my priority must be.
In a way, I might be post conventional limerence – or at least the ‘traditional’ ups and downs? That stage, with all its breadcrumbs and inconsistency, lasted *years*. Now it’s just abandonment grief to be honest, all downs but with the absurd hope that somehow it can be what it was again.
I’m doing my best though. No unnecessary contact, no social media, more exercise and *trying* to let thoughts wash over me (so hard though). I’m six weeks into therapy too.
But I’m still very sad. We had such a great friendship and now it’s gone – almost in a flash. Incredibly she went from meeting this guy to moving in with him in just five weeks. No gentle ramp to help me acclimatise! No more rambling video calls, no more walks, WhatsApp dead… all just stopped. The end.
And of course, my evil limerent brain thinks this relationship is bound to fail and uses *that* now as the hope. But hope of what? I don’t want to be with her… but I want her to want me so so much.
Yes, it’s objectively silly to go from the immediate spark of new love to settled domesticity in such a short period of time and it stokes my fires of jealousy and resentment. But it’s absolutely none of my business of course – just another thing which makes it harder for me to move on, or properly get used to what has occurred.
I will move on though. I absolutely have to. Nothing positive will come of reaching out, or trying to normalize this situation by initiating contact. I know my triggers, I know the pain they cause.
I’m holding on for dear life and at some point I will camber to safety. Just no idea when.
Wonderful SO not LO!!
Phil:
Would you be willing to talk about your therapy at all? I am very interested in what comments this person has made to you about your limerent experience.
Phil,
“But hope of what? I don’t want to be with her… but I want her to want me so so much.”
And right there you have articulated do well the cruel, illogical paradox of limerence.
I have given up ever trying to understand that one intellectually. I think it is just one you have to feel and pick your way through, with time. It’s a painful journey but from what you’re articulating of your thought process and actions, you are on the journey now. Be patient with yourself, hold the course, and hopefully the deadlock in your mind should start to resolve.
I’m sorry Phil. I couldn’t remember if you had a SO or not. Obviously yes, you have something there you need to tackle. I don’t think my marriage would have survived a limerent episode. I would have probably told my Wife everything out of pure guilt. Or just to make her jealous. Which I had a good habit of doing. Which also explains why I’m not now married either.
I know your pain is unbearable right now. Dwelling on it seems all like you can do. The thought of her in your head is like a security blanket. I know how it feels to try and want to let her go. When so much of it doesn’t make sense.
I would tell myself LO is all in my head and she was. I prayed, yelled at God and screamed in my car. I must have been out of my mind. But it doesn’t last forever. Writing helped me a lot in the end. I still make time for it now. When I want to escape or ruminate in LO reverie. To me it’s about something other than my pathetic life in general.
You’re in my thoughts Friend. Reach out whenever you need to.
Dear Phil,
“And of course, my evil limerent brain thinks this relationship is bound to fail and uses *that* now as the hope.”
You are sounding so well. But you are right that your LO’s very sudden and precipitous dropping of you is maybe going to move into a new phase once her honeymoon period in her new relationship dies down a bit. She might bring you back into her orbit in the coming months. I hope that you have a strategy for this. What I felt was that, once the tide had turned, it slowly (very slowly) went in the right direction. By ‘tide turning’, I mean this part
“But hope of what? I don’t want to be with her… but I want her to want me so so much.”
I always knew that I didn’t really want him, deep down, I just wanted him to want me. That is powerful information, once the feel good / bad chemicals in the lim-brain subside a little.
L.E
I remember talking to you about Return of the Pink Panther being one of my favorite comedies. This happened this morning shortly after I woke up …
Do you know what you said in your sleep last night?
*Me panicking* How bad did I ____ up?
No more Pink Panther for you for a while. You kept saying that “chimpanzee minkeey” line in your sleep last night.
*sighs in relief*
For those that need context …
https://youtu.be/6muq1smaVCQ?si=fCxS-kN0teLnsib0
I love Peter Sellers!
My favorite role of his was in “Dr. Strangelove,” especially Group Captian Lionel Mandrake.
Hi all
It’s been a while – the rebuilding process is a thorough one – right?
I felt the need to not only update all of you who have been so brilliant to, and supportive of me, that I’m doing ok. I think that I can say that my Limerence for XLO is firmly burning out. If I bump into her at work (even sat in a meeting where she was present 2 weeks ago – unheard of a couple of months ago), it’s fine. I feel nothing, I just remove myself immediately.
Something happened at the weekend. It could’ve been disastrous, but actually it’s been really enlightening.
I got a WhatsApp message on Saturday evening at about 10 pm. It was for my number I didn’t recognise but I soon realised who it was. You can imagine that I was horrified. Yes she’d actually messaged me from another phone. It was with a picture of us both together at a pub it said “a year ago how things have changed since?” Needless to say I didn’t reply. But I did quickly block that number as well.
A few minutes afterwards I got a text from another friend at work. I’ve been able to open up to her a little bit about what’s going on although she only knows a few of the details she text me to say “are you okay? I have a feeling that (LO) has just been in touch with you.” She had sent her the same photo, told her we’d fallen out, but said that she didn’t know why. My friend encouraged her to ask me. She hasn’t. My friend said that she was probably drunk texting. I was surprised as she’s never drunk text me. My friend said get experiences were different….
I’ve just my friend for a coffee. Sone stuff has come out. Let me just say that some things make so much sense now. And I am more convinced than ever that I did the right thing by walking away. If LO were to ever ask what went wrong, I’d tell her – because I’m a decent human being. But I know that she won’t, because she will not want to hear that she could’ve been wrong even less to hear somebody pointing that out to her. I’ve been around her when that’s happened before and it didn’t end well . Basically she’s incapable of taking it.
Thanks for reading my update. My LWL friends have helped me to get this far. I’m so grateful to you all, thank you.
I hope that you are all ok.
Jmmo x
Jmmo,
It sounds like you’re holding your grand firm, that’s great!!
I don’t know how close you’re with your other friend, but I’d be cautious about what to tell her; there is no need to explain to her, unless you think you can trust her completely. I’ve made the mistake, NOT ONCE, over trusting a friend and then s/he immediately passed my words to the other side, making the tension worse.
Maybe I’m over cautious in this arena, but just thought to mention it. You know/sense your friend well enough to weigh how much you want to reveal to her.
Thank you for telling us how you’re doing, JMMO! Please keep going with NC, at least in mind, with your LO. 😃
Dear ❄️
Yes you are right. I have deliberately stayed away from going any further, as my other friend works with LO, and I have made it clear that I wish not to put her in an awkward position – whilst also being mindful of making myself vulnerable.
Thank you ☺️
Jmmo xx
To JMMO:
I don’t think that I am one of those people who helped you, but I am delighted to hear that you are doing so well. I will look up to you and aspire to what you have accomplished.
I’m still rattling around in my Stupid Place.
Hi Norma – happy to talk about therapy but not sure how much help it is currently?
We’re focusing on self worth issues currently and a lifelong anxious attachment style which has seen me cling on to people and relationships which are/were objectively not worth persisting with.
It feels like groundwork at the moment and any meaningful results may be further down the road. My worry is that it might be too generic and won’t necessarily arm me with tools to deal specifically with limerence. But I will persist… and report any progress!
To Phil:
I have anxious attachment issues as well.
I am not in therapy at the moment, but I am thinking, what does LO give me, and how can I give that to myself?
Probably over-simplifying there.
Dear Norma
We are all in that place, dear friend. Please do not be hard on yourself for being as vulnerable as each and everyone of us. Oh, and by the way, you absolutely have been a great help to me even if only by listening. thank you. Jmmo x
Jmmo,
Gosh, she still hasn’t quit trying to circle back for supply?! That’s crazy.
You sound like you’ve moved an awful long way though, if you can now sit in a meeting and not feel triggered. Good efforts.
What’s the nature this new insight you’ve had from the friend, if you can say any more about it?
Keep going – you sound a lot better.
Hi LaR,
A few things have come out really. Some of the things have reassured me that it wasn’t just me, that she absolutely has issues which make her sometimes very unpleasant to be around, not to mention dreadful LO material!
Probably the most significant has been an insight into what appears to be a , how can I put it? Reliance on the “ juice”. She is also back in a “relationship“ with a guy she did nothing but complain about and ridicule 12 months ago. Not only could I not care less about her being with somebody, it also demonstrates what you and others have said on countless occasions :she has to have men circling her. Or as you rightly say supplying her!
Jmmo
“I did the right thing by walking away. If LO were to ever ask what went wrong, I’d tell her – because I’m a decent human being.”
Good work Jmmo. Our situations seem similar. Its bad when they are incapable of being able to take it.. Things take time but you keep doing the work and you’ll get there.
Thanks MJ.
Needless to say, she has since made zero effort to find out “what went wrong”. She can’t handle it. Simples.
I hope that you are well.
Yes, oversimplification is my concern too. Can therapy meaningfully address and tackle my limerence or simply help me understand myself better on a more basic level? If I had a choice I’d rather the former to be honest. But maybe it can’t happen without the latter.
To Phil:
I really don’t understand myself at all. One of the key components of limerence is supposed to be uncertainty. I have ZERO uncertainty when it comes to my LO, yet my interest in him is through the roof. He’s gay, he’s always busy with work, he’s planning to move across the country. He likes me, but I am not a high priority for him.
I ran into him yesterday and he mentioned that he wanted to invite me over today, which is a holiday in the US. He texted me this morning and said that his elderly mother had fallen during the night and he wanted to stay home and keep an eye on her. I offered to bring her some soup, but he declined. He also declined to invite me over. Today would be a perfect day for us to chat while he pops in on his mom every 15 minutes or so. But he doesn’t want to, for whatever reason, so I just drop it.
He has no idea how strong my longing is to see him, and I have no explanation for it. He knows I have a crush on him, but I don’t think he understands how intense it is, and I don’t want him to know.
No point in making it weirder than it needs to be.
“I have ZERO uncertainty when it comes to my LO, yet my interest in him is through the roof.”
Dr Tom’s ‘Death of Hope’ article is one I return to on this theme. Hope has died for me but I feel infinitely worse because I know I won’t get the highs again and I feel abandoned.
Having a really nice day at work today though and getting attention/validation from colleagues who unconsciously remind me that I am valued.
Also interesting to see that LO’s change of circs (utterly all-in on new boyfriend and working from their new shared home almost exclusively instead of coming into office) is being observed by other colleagues in a not entirely favourable light.
I’m not the only person feeling rejected which helps a little, even if others are not as consumed by it.
Thinking of you Norma x
Sorry, meant to link to the article…
https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-death-of-hope/
To Phil:
Thank you for your comments. Could you clarify one thing about LO–are you saying that she is neglecting her job because of her SO? Not quite sure I understood that part.
Anyway, I LOVE the article and am going to re-read it as needed.
I am really in a funk today, so this came at a good time.
Thank you for thinking of me and for your ongoing kindness.
ND,
“No point in making it weirder than it needs to be.”
I think that ship sailed a long time ago.
To pilot any kind of watercraft you need propulsion and a rudder. You have to have both. Missing either one leaves you at the mercy of the wind and current.
From my time on LwL, what I see is most people have a rudder but a lot of people either can’t or won’t grab it to aim where they want to go. Propulsion seems to be the bigger issue. People seem to lack the will or means to do what it takes to move in the direction they want to go.
The link Phil gave you is one of DrL’s best articles.
Hi Norma and so sorry you’re in a funk.
It’s not so much that LO is neglecting her job per se; more that she was quite a lonely person outside work, I think, and threw herself into all aspects of it, including the social element.
Now that she has a partner, it’s like nothing else actually really matters that much to her any more, including her work friends – of which I was her closest.) He is her everything, and so it now I feels like I’m no longer of any use. It hurts… but others also feel that this transformation is a little icky.
I know none of this detail materially affects me, but the oddness of it all fuels the rumination which perpetuates the pain. Nothing has ever really been that normal about her, or our ‘friendship’, so while this development has come as a painful shock, it possibly shouldn’t have done to be honest.
To L.E.:
You say that most people have a rudder.
I don’t think I even have a boat.
That makes 2 of us ND. You can come and share my life preserver.
I won’t let you drown.
😆
To MJ:
Oh, you made me laugh out loud!
Bless you for that.
ND
You’re very welcome.
Brother Adam would never forgive me if I let something happen to you.. 😆
My dear Miss Norma
I am sorry that he got your hopes up only to shatter them. It is true that most LO’s are unaware of the intensity of how we feel about them, even if an obvious “crush” is visible. If he couldn’t follow through with the invite then he should never have sent it. Even with the events that happened.
I have to say that she would follow through with what she would say. If I meant to small talk with her and she was busy she would say “I’ll call you back Adam” and she always would even if it was at the end of the work day.
You are in good hands floating down the river with MJ. My brother will take good care of you. Remember you are never alone and I, and many others are here for you. I may not post as much anymore, but I am always reading.
Someday I will get the courage to ask you out on that second dinner together. 🙂
To Adam:
I had a blast. The lobster bisque hit the spot.
Thank you for reminding me that I am not alone.
It FEELS lonely much of the time. It’s hard to talk to people about this–not because I am embarrassed, I’m not, but because they don’t understand.
One of my best friends (wife of the guy who hit the dog in another post) said, “Just forget about him.” OMG, if only that were possible!
Sorry about the ‘LD’ typo in my post name, Norma. Oh for an edit button! 😊
I agree, Phil. I really wish there was an edit button. I make so many typos.
Cape Tenaron
Katerina Iliopoulou
translated from the modern Greek by Jackson Watson
Here the days don’t dissolve in air
they fall into the water
shaping their own shell
a sheen of separation.
A hawk flies over summer’s body
diving again, again
feeding and drunk from the fall.
There’s nothing here
but manic wind alone and stones
and sea
a senseless promise
sharpens our lust with the moon’s blade.
When I arrived here, in the landscape of endings,
the wind entered my mouth with so much rage
as if I were its only vessel
until all my words vanished.
Each tree receives the wind’s gust differently
some suffer, others—again—resist
(I’ve met a palm tree that birthed the wind,
then sent it in every direction)
others shiver all over and change colors.
I, of course, am not a tree
I sat down and wore the wind’s coat
I stooped my head and looked at the ground
through its cracks, thyme’s roots
& their hieroglyphics
struggled to enter the light.
Then the words came back.
Here is how to greet a native speaker❓😉 in ✏️ ✏️ ✏️ and words , in an alien tone — https://polyglot.sps.edu/video/chinese/IntChinese_Book1_4e/Lesson_01/index.php
— the very first lesson to corrupt intrigued learners … 😹 🤭
I was heading into 10 months of NC when LO called me on Friday. I answered it because I’m weak. It was a short call though, because I wasn’t giving him much to work with in the way of responses. I tried to be clipped and uninterested. I honestly don’t know why he called me other than to vent about the dysfunction in our common professions. What I really wanted to do was yell at him and say F*** you, lose my number, you don’t deserve my friendship or access to my thoughts and feelings anymore. Sadly I am not a confrontational person, to the point of being a pathological people pleaser. So distant and cold was the best I could do.
I then spent the holiday weekend in my feelings listening to sad music and thinking way too much about him. Went to bed and he was the last thing I thought about, wake up and there he was. I have not yet recovered from this phone call. My feelings are a jumble of anger, longing, regret, and nostalgia. I kinda really hate him right now.
To Lost Girl:
I too am a people pleaser. This leads to a lot of self-loathing. You didn’t mention that in your post, but I imagine you might pile that on, on top of your hatred for LO.
The beginning of a holiday weekend is a bad time for him to call. However, you are way ahead of me in one important way. You hate him and did not contact him yourself. Give yourself credit for that.
In addition to hating my LO, and hating myself, I am still nuts about him and, in your scenario, *I* would have been the one contacting HIM.
The emotional turmoil would have been far worse if you had initiated the call.
I don’t know your story, but it sounds like you might need to give yourself a little more credit for the amount of progress you have made.
To Norma
You have hit the nail on the head about the self loathing. I feel so weak and pathetic when it comes to him and I hate myself for it. Just the fact that I have always craved any small scrap of attention he will spare me makes me disgusted with myself.
I say I hate him, and do in many ways, but ultimately he is a good person who does a lot of good things in the world. So good at his profession and so kind with his patients and staff. His behavior when it comes to me tends to be selfish though. I have never disclosed to him how I feel but don’t believe he is unaware and in fact encouraged those feelings. I could chalk it all up to being in my head but coworkers always commented on how he treated me differently from everyone else and would imply something romantic was going on, I even had patients that would ask if we were a couple. I always shut down that talk because he was married and made sure everyone understood we were just good friends.
He’s the one that got my number from a coworker and stared the communication outside of work. I think he could recognize my “crush” and he enjoyed the attention and how it made him feel. We talked and texted a lot outside of work and while the context of those texts and calls were never inappropriate, the amount and frequency was inappropriate since he was married. I have been there to offer support through several tough points in his life but he doesn’t seem able to reciprocate. It’s not that he’s unable to, because I’ve seen him be supportive to others, he just seems unwilling when it comes to me.
We have a very long history together at this point and I went into a very detailed, probably too detailed explanation of it, a few years ago on the limerent for a coworker post.
“In addition to hating my LO, and hating myself, I am still nuts about him”
I relate to this so much. I am still nuts for him too. If he called me tomorrow and gave me a genuine apology for bailing on me during one of my lowest points in my life, I would go back to our weird friendship dynamic in a heartbeat. The last time I contacted him, he had started at a new organization, and I knew I was giving him my farewell. I told him good luck with everything and that I truly wished him nothing but the best in life. Even though I have a lot of animosity and anger towards him I don’t wish him any ill will. I just finally decided I deserve to b treated as a priority, no matter the kind of relationship.
I wish you well in your own LE. Our thoughts and feelings when it comes to LO are so complex and often contradictory that it’s no wonder it’s hard for us to move on from them. It makes it even worse when LO is someone you actively have a relationship with. Going NC may be the best thing but it really fucking hard!
To Lost Girl:
I enjoyed reading this very much, thank you. I am a relative newcomer here. I fell for LO about 2-1/2 years ago, but didn’t know the word limerence right away. It wasn’t until I ordered Dr. Tom’s first book that I found my way here.
It took me a long time to get up enough courage to post, and now I can’t seem to shut up.
I am the world’s biggest failure at NC, and when the Limmy Awards are announced, I expect to be a nominee in that category.
ND,
NC falls into at least three nomination categories, Most Relapses in the Year, Most Spectacular Relapse of the Year and Longest Period of NC Before Falling Off the Wagon.
The second category is the most entertaining. It takes something like showing up at the delivery room while your LO’s SO is having a baby to clinch that one.
To L.E.:
I doubt I can get a nomination in the second category, although I have been told that I’m entertaining.
I have no hope of the third category, but I might try for a nomination in the first category.
There has to be an upside to being limerent, and I am determined to make the most of it.
Don’t feel bad ND. If there is a Limmy for Most Delusional Limerent, I am pretty sure I’ve got that one coming, hands down..
Dear Lost Girl and Norma,
I have a limerant experience from some 40 years ago, just as I was graduating from college and transitioning to graduate school, that I’d like to relate. It shares some of the same themes as the two of you have discussed, such as going NC, breaking NC (by either the limerant or LO), conflicting emotions, and self-loathing.
Back in undergrad, there was another student on whom, over the course of nearly three years, I developed a friendship, which soon turned into an all-consuming crush. She was very attractive (to me) and had an essentially flawless personality. But thare was a major hurdle — she always had a boyfriend during this time — the first one may have been her first, and was not suitable for her, but the second one she later married, and remains married to this day. So, I never explicitly disclosed my feelings, but did drop subtle hints now and then.
The least subtle of these was an allegorical poem about a cat, but was really about her. I had penned it just a day after visiting her, along with some friends, in her dorm room, where she had a cat, which I spent a great deal of time with. (As you may guess from my name, I am a huge cat person). I thought the message in the poem was so obvious that I thought sending it would be hugely risky. But I sent it anyway, and she responded the next day, telling me that it was beautiful! This really meant a lot to me, especially since she was the editor of the school’s poetry magazine, and her father was a well regarded linguist and poet. By contrast, I am (was) a physical science person, the cold, analytical kind, and it was the only poem I had or have ever written to date.
Anyway, as graduation day approached, my limerance was nearing its peak, and I was starting to panic at the thought of never seeing her again. So, as a parting gift, I sent her (as opposed to giving in person) a cassette tape containing my favorite, emotional and gorgeous sounding tracks. This was a way of staying in contact with her, since she would have to acknowledge the gift.
The acknowledgment did not come. I had moved on to grad school in a state nearly a thousand miles away, but I was sorely missing her, and was also becoming rather angry at her for not acknowledging the gift.
It was the first time I had found a flaw in her personality. She was not quite as perfect as I thought — not the kind, considerate goddess, but the selfish siren who uses men to build her own ego. Finally, after over a year, I started to move on from my limerance.
Then the call came. She told me that, with a bit of research, she had found my new number. I was flattered not only that she had not forgotten me, but that she had gone to the effort to find me. For a few days, I was ecstatic.
Soon, my ecstasy returned to anger, and I wrote her a long, angry letter. The anger was mixed in with self loathing — I was kicking myself for being ecstatic just a few days earlier. Anyway, she replied with a letter of her own, in which she was profusely apologetic.
In the years since, I have come to realize that my anger was misplaced, and also that she had no reason to be so apologetic. But my limerance returned with a vengance, but I naively thought that after this self-disclosure, we could resume our close friendship.
Soon thereafter, I drove nearly 24 hours to her boyfriend’s place, where she was living which went without a crisis. But after returning from the visit, I could not stop thinking of her, and penned another letter stating my feelings, basically saying that I could not live without her, knowing fully that this meant certain rejection.
This is exactly what happened. She called me and said very calmly that we should not remain in contact. I did not argue with her and, ironically, felt a sense of relief, for I could now move on with my life. I regained an immense respect for her, and she remained, for nearly the next forty years, the ultimate LO.
That is, until my most recent LO. While they have quite different personalities, they also share some important traits. There have also been uncanny coincidences. For context, the father-in-law of the first LO was world famous in his field — think front page obituary, which he got when he died a decade ago. Anyway, as the current LO was discussing with me her grad school research topic, I looked it up on Wikipedia, and lo and behold, the first reference was the father-in-law! So many reminders of the past! In some ways, I was perhaps subconsciously trying to reproduce (Freudian slip?) the girlfriend I never had forty years ago with another girlfriend I can never have!
Anyway, my essential message to the two of you is to not be so hard on yourself. We all do things we regret, we all have thoughts and feelings we cannot control. Almost anybody, whether a people pleaser or not, would have reacted enthusiastically to a call from an LO. Also, it appears that self-loathing is a key characteristic of us limerants. We’re all working on this journey together.
Thanks for reading.
LO’s having a baby? I’m there! Maybe she’ll have the baby boy she always wanted! Just gotta pick out the perfect card for her.
Well if the stars align and LO comes back to the job I ought to be pretty entertaining in that second category.
To L.E.:
Adam really deserves that nomination.
To CatCyclist:
Thank you for sharing that story. I cringed when you described the parts about sending her letters. I would have done that years ago, and I understand that you were quite young at the time.
I have realized that writing angry letters does me zero good, since I am a timid woman who is attracted to powerful men who tend to exhibit a lot of anger themselves.
I could probably send LO your letter from 40 years ago, and instead of apologizing, he would erupt in rage.
I am wondering, how long altogether was your relationship with the first LO?
Yeah, I’ve written letters to LO’s, too, especially when I was very young. Didn’t go over well.
Dear Norma
I have not had really issues with NC in the last few years. I reason is the longer and longer I keep up NC if I did contact her in some way it might just be weird or even creepy to her. I’d like to think she at least remembers me in some positive way. And I wouldn’t want to ruin that with her.
But I know if I ever met her in person again I would break. It was bad enough in the beginning when I would check her facebook that I know an in face meeting would send me right down the rabbit hole again. So lets all pray for my sanity’s sake that never happens.
Another current song of limerence:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X87xJmBqk4k
Blaklight–“Buried Alive”
To MJ:
I hope that you are not overlooked at Award Season.
I am pretty sure that I have that NC Relapse category locked up.
Dear Norma,
Speaking of cringeworthy letters, I accidentally found one a few months ago when I was at my Mom’s place, our childhood home. It was a letter I never sent, or perhaps a rough draft, of one I wrote to my actual first LO from high school. It is amazing how little my limerant brain has changed since 1981, expressing themes such as “the spell” — ideas directly out of Tennov, and around the time of her book on limerance, although at the time I had no clue about either her or her ideas.
The LO I discussed in my prior post is actually my second LO from college. We were friends for about three years, although the first year I mostly just admired her from a distance, since I was painfully shy back then. I still remember the time and place that she introduced herself to me. She was never my “girlfriend,” just an LO.
I’ve had several LO’s since then, but none matched the intensity of the second, until possibly the current one — who, as you know, I’m trying really hard to put in my past, while maintaining a modicum of professionalism. I desperately want to be limerance free!
And one more thing…
I wrote the poem about the cat (and implicitly the LO) in an altered state, but combined with the altered state that is limerance, I guess it was a doubly altered state! It sure felt like it, an alternate reality in which women and cats have merged!
To CatCyclist:
Do you still have a copy of the poem?
ND
Even if I don’t get anything in the regular categories, I’m sure a special award will be given for “Saddest Limerent”
This of course will be the common “The Thinker” Limmy Sculpture but mine will be exclusive because it will be given to me and be dripping wet.
MJ to Marcia – (As she hands me the award) “Why is this statuette dripping like this?”
Marcia to MJ – “Because this is the Limmy for “Saddest Limerent” So all it does is cry and drip tears, like you do all the time..” 😂😂
So I guess when I win this, I’ll have to leave it on the floor, close to my Utility Room drain..
Sounds about right.. 😆
Marcia to MJ:
“MJ to Marcia – (As she hands me the award) “Why is this statuette dripping like this?”
I’m not picking up a dripping wet Limmy. Sounds icky. 🙂 You’ll need to find another presenter.
And if you cry in front of me, I’ll slap you. 🙂
MJ,
We’ll keep a transparent plastic bucket on the stage, so your statuette will stay inside of it.
Try not to cry; otherwise, Lady Marcia will slap you 🙂 , your grandpa and some other “ghosts” might 😭 🌊 with you… then how many buckets are we supposed to have on the Limmy stage? 🙄
How do we know you’re the saddest person in the room, just because you lamented in 🌊 so loudly❓
Marcia to Snow,
MJ needs to look into Stoicism to dry up his tears. 🙂
I thought of you. I watched a few scenes of “Napoleon and Josephine” the other day. A few scenes was all I could take! I first saw it years ago as a teenager and thought it was sexy. But now … no. He was hammy and silly with a bad wig and overly drawn eyebrows. They had little chemistry. Shallow script. She looked gorgeous and her costumes were beautiful, but that’s all that recommended it.
Marcia,
“ MJ needs to look into Stoicism to dry up his tears. 🙂”
📣 Yes, indeed! He needs to learn from his brother, 🎩 🍺, to watch some Stoicism video clips, which could not only dry up his tears, but channel through more charming and confident energy to attract other available “fishes in the pond. “
“I watched a few scenes of “Napoleon and Josephine” the other day. A few scenes was all I could take! I first saw it years ago as a teenager and thought it was sexy. But now … no. He was hammy and silly with a bad wig and overly drawn eyebrows. “
I liked him little since he’s not my type; I just wanted to know the story line (only heard of some historical rumors beforehand about their love). But I did feel sad, seeing him to be “driven” sad and somewhat “weak” by gorgeous yet opportunistic Josephine.
In terms of hammy, I think any movie from last century feels like “hammy”, compared to today’s naturalistic styles — I often forgot I was watching a movie, but a reality.
“They had little chemistry. Shallow script. She looked gorgeous and her costumes were beautiful, but that’s all that recommended it.”
I could not see how Josephine could accept his “LE-like” courtship, she could conquer any man. The preview of the TV series and Bisset drew me immediately into it; she looked more elegant and sexy as she aged, better between her 40s-60s— a lady and woman! I only saw it 1.5~2 years ago, during which I was thinking: the most powerful man in Europe of the Napoleon era was not Napoleon, but Josephine!
You’re right, who “loves”/cares more in a relationship, who suffers more, even if he’s a French “King”. There are over 170,000 biographies written about Napoleon over last 200 years! He’s such a fascinating “Hero”, but not Asante, he looked a bit “dumb”, so unromantic in the miniseries…. 🙄
“I thought of you.”
Thanks. I’ve been wondering how your new online dating round is going, anything hopeful yet? I wish you best lucks… Never give up hopes, efforts, and any forms of enjoyment, while time is zooming through…
Did you see the two video clips (less than 2 mins each) I posted the other day, in which an American girl pencil-dropped, within 15 seconds, to “greet” a Glimmering Chinese man? 🤭
Snow,
“But I did feel sad, seeing him to be “driven” sad and somewhat “weak” by gorgeous yet opportunistic Josephine.”
I’m kind of impressed with her. 🙂
“In terms of hammy, I think any movie from last century feels like “hammy”, compared to today’s naturalistic styles — I often forgot I was watching a movie, but a reality.”
Well, it’s now so much that as it was a TV movie, and they were, as a general rule, pretty bad. At the time, movies shown in the theaters were better written and better acted. Now the quality stuff — again, as a general rule — is on the streaming services.
“during which I was thinking: the most powerful man in Europe of the Napoleon era was not Napoleon, but Josephine!”
Yes, possibly.
“He’s such a fascinating “Hero”, but not Asante, he looked a bit “dumb”, so unromantic in the miniseries…. 🙄”
I agree. I didn’t like him in the role. As a teenager, however, I was swooning. 🙂
“I’ve been wondering how your new online dating round is going, anything hopeful yet? ”
No. It’s bad.
“… Never give up hopes, efforts, and any forms of enjoyment, while time is zooming through…”
It’s zooming by alright.
“Did you see the two video clips (less than 2 mins each) I posted the other day, in which an American girl pencil-dropped, within 15 seconds, to “greet” a Glimmering Chinese man? 🤭”
No, I didn’t.
Marcia,
“I’m kind of impressed with her. 🙂”
Yes, I do too. I found I understand her (as well as my x-mother-in-law’s charm and feminine power) better after seeing the movie while beforehand I only heard negative things about her. I also found Napoleon was quite human in his love for Josephine — unthinkable in any other feudal Empire system. After all, he’s from an ordinary family with 8 children and fought for equality, despite his greediness for power later.
Here is a compiler of Napoloen’s suffering/loving moments with Josephine — https://youtu.be/VRq76rdtRnQ?si=bhE3wXPaH4m8fsRY
“Well, it’s now so much that as it was a TV movie, and they were, as a general rule, pretty bad. “
I rarely have time or patience to watch feature film nowadays, but documentaries or BBC miniseries based on classical books — I can’t get over with them, although they’re so “unrealistic” in today’s lifestyle! I guess it’s a form of mental escape.
“At the time, movies shown in the theaters were better written and better acted. Now the quality stuff — again, as a general rule — is on the streaming services.”
Yeah, it seems that the golden era of quality films is over… everyone is streaming something of their own reality in social medias, and commercials are strictly obnoxious.
[“during which I was thinking: the most powerful man in Europe of the Napoleon era was not Napoleon, but Josephine!”]
“Yes, possibly.”
Well, as you often say that in a relationship, who loves less seems to be more desired and hold more power. Josephine is probably the most rewarded LO in the history with a crown of Empress, who confessed before marrying Napoleon that she’s unable to afford to be virtuous — https://youtu.be/iessP3U05jw?si=-5BXZCCcaR4CFJh5
“I agree. I didn’t like him in the role. As a teenager, however, I was swooning. 🙂”
When I look at idols or crushes/LOs of my youth, I wish ground would open a hold so I could jump in and hide inside. That’s my firm belief and acute observation that we ALL evolve, whether we realize it or not. Sometime, an emotional/mental evolution or revolution has taken place and could occur overnight…. 😳
After more than 5 months of last LE and lifetime longing are gone, I more clearly and calmly see my immaturity and stupidity in the past 8 years and the most of my past life…. However, late or not, it’s much better than never reaching such a revelation and understanding their roots…
“No. It’s bad.”
I consider entering dating apps is like going to a relationship casino, where every goer wants to get the same fortune with different games. Few gets lucky, most just lose their emotional coins again and again especially with that slot machine. 😀
“It’s zooming by alright.”
Time has become “our precious”. Nowadays, I habitually scan my mental states, so as not to waste “my precious” on negative, unproductive, or useless thoughts (e.g. hopes) or emotions (eg. regrets) about the future, past or present external uncontrollable…
“No, I didn’t.”
I thought throwing pencil trick is your ladyship’s invention, never expected to see it’s common strategy for many American women to use even to foreigners…. The glad Chinese LO has to kneel down again and again to pick up her more than a dozen of pencils… Who carries that many pencils in a 🎒 😆 !
The clip is even used as a textbook for anyone who intends to learn COO tongue! 😛
My workload has been doubled than last school year in both official and private teaching, and I’m keeping a daily rigorous workout regime so I can handle the enjoyable demands in body, mood and mind… 😀
Snow,
“I rarely have time or patience to watch feature film nowadays”
I will watch some. It depends on what they are.
“Yeah, it seems that the golden era of quality films is over… everyone is streaming something of their own reality in social medias, and commercials are strictly obnoxious.”
Some of the shows on the streaming services are actually pretty good. My only complaint is that they tend to be too long. Too many episodes.
“Well, as you often say that in a relationship, who loves less seems to be more desired and hold more power. ”
I was watching a video on YouTube the other day about the concept of the adorer and the adored in relationships. Women often want to the adorer. To look up to the man. So maybe that was the problem. They flipped roles. He was the adorer.
“who confessed before marrying Napoleon that she’s unable to afford to be virtuous —”
Well, she was in her early 30s when she married him and she’d married her first husband at 16. I would think a woman saying she wasn’t virtuous would be intriguing. I think she was older than he was.
“When I look at idols or crushes/LOs of my youth, I wish ground would open a hold so I could jump in and hide inside. ”
Some of mine hold up. I still think those guys are sexy. Some … I wonder if I had a drug problem as a teenager. What was I thinking? 🙂
“After more than 5 months of last LE and lifetime longing are gone, I more clearly and calmly see my immaturity and stupidity in the past 8 years and the most of my past life….”
I never see my past LOs, but a VERY SMALL part of me would like to. I think I’d have the same reaction: What was I thinking? 🙂
[“No. It’s bad.”]
“I consider entering dating apps is like going to a relationship casino”
I have zero interest in it. I’m getting tired just thinking about showering and getting ready to meet one of those guys. I don’t want to do it. Can I do a “French bath” and just put on some perfume over yesterday’s stank? 🙂
“I thought throwing pencil trick is your ladyship’s invention, never expected to see it’s common strategy for many American women to use even to foreigners”
Centuries ago the woman would drop her handkerchief in front of the man she was interested in so he’d pick it up and approach.
“My workload has been doubled than last school year in both official and private teaching, and I’m keeping a daily rigorous workout regime so I can handle the enjoyable demands in body, mood and mind… 😀”
Do you want to work that much or would you prefer to work less?
“And if you cry in front of me, I’ll slap you. 🙂”
Marcia, Snow
Here I thought the two of you would love to give me another good ribbing over my crying spells. At the Limmys of all things. 😆
I do need a “Thinker” statue for my house. I could set it by my mini LO sanctuary. Where I have all my LO pics and I cry and weep over her and adore her picture.. Just kidding.. That’s a little creepy isn’t it? 😆
“MJ needs to look into Stoicism to dry up his tears. 🙂”
📣 Yes, indeed! He needs to learn from his brother, 🎩 🍺, to watch some Stoicism video clips, which could not only dry up his tears, but channel through more charming and confident energy to attract other available “fishes in the pond. ”
I have watched those videos. Some of which Brother Adam and I commented on over there together..
I think I may finally have some good news on the home front finally. The new girl at work and I have been getting along well. We had a chance to work together the other night and I took full advantage of it. I wouldn’t say it’s anything outrageous even anything close yet to what things were like between LF and I. But she’s very chill and relaxed. She’s also a Latina. (Which is a very good thing to have going for her, lol..) She’s not full of drama. Nothing here seems forced or rushed and I really sorta like her vibe. She’s definitely over 35 (maybe 40+?) and the mother of a young Son. She’s currently not seeing anyone. After work, she gave me a ride out to my car in the parking lot and we chatted. Really about nothing serious but the topic turned to pizza and I asked if she’d ever ate at my favorite downtown pizza spot. She said she hadn’t and so it was in that second I politely slipped in asking her out for dinner, to go there. Which surprisingly and easily, she said yes. It was the craziest thing ever. Like the words simply flowed out of me like a peaceful easy river. (Maybe this was the sweet spot you always talk to me about) I almost thought I was going to faint when she said yes.
So a dinner date is tentatively planned but not scheduled yet. I have to arrange things with the caretaker and make sure things with Dad are covered. She said don’t be in any hurry. Hopefully this happens within this month. I’m not forcing or pressuring anything and she really seems ok with this strategy.
Guess I’m just concerned because her and LF have been talking too and I’m curious if my name has come up. Her and I are sort of talking again but it’s only about work related matters and it seems to always feel super awkward so that’s still very irritating to me. Not much more I can do I suppose. Really hope she keeps quiet.
MJ,
“I do need a “Thinker” statue for my house. I could set it by my mini LO sanctuary. Where I have all my LO pics and I cry and weep over her and adore her picture.. Just kidding.. That’s a little creepy isn’t it? 😆”
It’s BEYOND creepy. It’s cringe. 🙂
“Really about nothing serious but the topic turned to pizza and I asked if she’d ever ate at my favorite downtown pizza spot. She said she hadn’t and so it was in that second I politely slipped in asking her out for dinner, to go there. Which surprisingly and easily, she said yes. It was the craziest thing ever. Like the words simply flowed out of me like a peaceful easy river.”
FANTASTIC! Guess who’s back? Back again. MJ’s back … tell a friend … Guess who’s back, guess who’s back, guess who’s back … 🙂
” She said don’t be in any hurry. Hopefully this happens within this month. I’m not forcing or pressuring anything and she really seems ok with this strategy.”
NO! NO! NO! I mean, you don’t have to ask her the second you see her on Monday morning, but I’d say maybe Friday of this upcoming week or by very early the following week … give her a couple of tentative days and times you’re available. See if she is. A man with a plan is a sexy man. I cannot stress that enough. You wait too long, you lose momentum.
“Not much more I can do I suppose. Really hope she keeps quiet.”
I hope she keeps her mouth shut, but I agree: Not much you can do.
Marcia,
“I will watch some. It depends on what they are.”
I’m not interested in watching others’ modern life, most of which are crappy in both worlds. Without that longing, I’m able to focus on making my own healthy living, with minimum, necessary and meaningful human interactions.
“I was watching a video on YouTube the other day about the concept of the adorer and the adored in relationships. “
It’d be ideal if both sides are mutually adored and adoring, which is rare. Being adored is actually quite boring, especially for a curious mind to explore, learn and take challenges.
“Women often want to the adorer. To look up to the man. “
Macho traditions and unfair laws of the past have made women so, still in many countries. The west has progressed a lot.
“So maybe that was the problem. They flipped roles. He was the adorer.”
Well, he’s NOT just one’s average neighbor cutie Joe, but Napoleon! It’s admirable that he was a true adorer of an “un-virtuous” single Mom, making him humanly humble, unlike his predecessor, those French kings. At least he did not behave like a drooling puppy in front of Josephine!
“Well, she was in her early 30s when she married him and she’d married her first husband at 16. I would think a woman saying she wasn’t virtuous would be intriguing. I think she was older than he was.”
She was 33 and him 27 when they married. In the movie’s beginning, she made a deal with the prison officer to exchange her sex for her and her children’s life (a couple of days before they’d be guillotined during Reign of Terror). She knows how to use her charm and beauty for her own gains.
“Some of mine hold up. I still think those guys are sexy. Some … I wonder if I had a drug problem as a teenager. What was I thinking? 🙂”
After the initial Glimmer, men’s sexiness would not hold my attention long, but his personality. My initiative eyes were x-ray like to spot their flaws, while I stupidly considered myself “perfect”…. 🙄
“I never see my past LOs, but a VERY SMALL part of me would like to. I think I’d have the same reaction: What was I thinking? 🙂”
I don’t particularly want to see or avoid them, I would not feel anything about them or know about what to talk with them, as if they were a “stranger”. Once my “LE” is gone, it’s gone for good 🆎! — much worse than Darcy’s first impression of Elizabeth! 🤭
“I have zero interest in it. I’m getting tired just thinking about showering and getting ready to meet one of those guys. I don’t want to do it. Can I do a “French bath” and just put on some perfume over yesterday’s stank? 🙂”
If so dreadful, then why do you even sign them up? Isn’t a waste of your time and energy?
“Centuries ago the woman would drop her handkerchief in front of the man she was interested in so he’d pick it up and approach.”
I never played such a game, I was always shy and most of the time wanted to be LEFT alone….
“Do you want to work that much or would you prefer to work less?”
My actual teaching/coaching hours is less than 15 hours each week. But the preparation and grading (# of students doubled) take a huge chunk of my time. I enjoy my work, because it makes me more alive in front of curious eyes, uplifting my mood every single time! 👍
I can quit my private sectors anytime w/o reasons. They can fire me, and I them if I dislike them.
MJ,
Dame Marcia is 🆎 right: don’t wait to long, no more than a week, to actually invite the new woman out; otherwise, your words become pleasant but an “empty promise”, which is frowned upon in many cultures, NOT sexy at all!
Woohoo, MJ! 🙂 And yes, move fast—She may just not want to seem too pushy and scare you off. 🙂
Snow,
“I’m not interested in watching others’ modern life, most of which are crappy in both worlds. ”
I love good stories. Particularly when they move you. It’s the human condition. It’s cathartic.
“Being adored is actually quite boring, especially for a curious mind to explore, learn and take challenges.”
Being adored is boring. And it makes the adorer look cringey. It made me wonder how I’ve come across to my LOs.
“Macho traditions and unfair laws of the past have made women so, still in many countries. The west has progressed a lot.”
It has nothing to do with that. Most women want the experience of feeling, of being “in love.” That’s the role of the adorer. The adorer looks up to the adored, thus the adored looks down on the adorer. The psychologist in the video said most women don’t want the role of looking down. And I think he’s right.
“Well, he’s NOT just one’s average neighbor cutie Joe, but Napoleon!”
When she met him, he was powerful (maybe a general ?) but not yet Emperor. And he was young, so his adoration may have come across as cringe.
“At least he did not behave like a drooling puppy in front of Josephine!”
In the scenes I saw (and these are, I’m assuming, made up), he did. He barely knows her and tells her he’s in love with her and then starts spouting off all the things he’s found out about her. He is definitely drooling on her.
“She knows how to use her charm and beauty for her own gains.”
Use what you got while you still got it. 🙂
“After the initial Glimmer, men’s sexiness would not hold my attention long, but his personality. My initiative eyes were x-ray like to spot their flaws, while I stupidly considered myself “perfect”…. ”
These are famous people. I don’t know them personally. I’m just going on their appearance and public persona.
“I don’t particularly want to see or avoid them, I would not feel anything about them or know about what to talk with them, as if they were a “stranger”. Once my “LE” is gone, it’s gone for good 🆎!”
I’m not worried about becoming limerent for them again. I don’t have any real desire to see them again. But if I could stand at a distance, undetected, and watch them … there is a part of me that would like to see how I’d react to them and how they look now. Like you, I have nothing to say to them. We weren’t friends then and I’m not limerent now, so what would I have to say?
“If so dreadful, then why do you even sign them up? Isn’t a waste of your time and energy?”
Because I never meet anyone. And I’m hoping to get my mind off the other one. But I won’t renew my subscription once it runs out.
“I never played such a game, I was always shy and most of the time wanted to be LEFT alone….”
I didn’t. Not if it was a guy I liked.
“My actual teaching/coaching hours is less than 15 hours each week. But the preparation and grading (# of students doubled) take a huge chunk of my time. I enjoy my work, because it makes me more alive in front of curious eyes, uplifting my mood every single time! 👍”
It’s good you like it. That’s the key.
Marcia,
“I love good stories. Particularly when they move you. It’s the human condition. It’s cathartic.”
I do, too; that’s why I still dig those classical stories. A kid or sage, we’d always love ageless, immortal stories — one of Jung’s Collective Unconscious. I just haven’t found much moving stories/films, many popular ones don’t quite move me, the whole modern lifestyle or sci-fi often annoys me. Also, when I binged tv-movies during a long break, I feel I’m passively observing other’s “fabricated, idealized lives”, not actively living or making my own realistic one more fulfilling.
Now, tell me some good stories/movies that have moved you, I like lengthy mini-series (less than 45 minutes) that tell gradual/slow developments and details; 2.5 hour movie is short & long in one go.
“Being adored is boring. And it makes the adorer look cringey. It made me wonder how I’ve come across to my LOs.”
I was only in one true LE; and most of the time, I thought I was dealing a “surrogate parent”, not even a potential lover. So I was not try to look/behave like an equal or even a woman, but a scar-laden confessor to a “red-cloaked bishop”. The LE was a “vessel” for me to get to the other shore of healing my newly refreshed, old traumas, who cares how I came across…
Now, LE is so gone, I actually felt post-embarrassment within like just having waken up from a long, foggy dream. Now, I know for sure that I must looked really cringey, silly, pathetic in my ex-coworkers’ eyes…. Well, luckily I no longer feel any regret about the LE but only calm acceptance — unknowingly falling into the altered state of mind is my guilty-free card…
“It has nothing to do with that. Most women want the experience of feeling, of being “in love.” That’s the role of the adorer. “
What’s differences of being “adored” and “admired”? I always thought the two verbs are associated with a person’s qualities, but clicking with a Glimmer only takes 3-5 seconds, having little to do with one’s personality or anything rational.
I don’t know where and how I could use these two verbs, except admiring one’s specific talents, intelligence, open-mindedness, curiosity, humility, iron-will, kindness, etc… I don’t remember I ever said “I admire you” or “I adore you” to any of my crushes or LOs, although I heard them spoken to me in person or in writing…. (LO#1, xSO, ET) I guess I’m not one of most women…
“The adorer looks up to the adored, thus the adored looks down on the adorer. The psychologist in the video said most women don’t want the role of looking down. And I think he’s right.”
But if we can soon or later spot flaws of “the adored”, then how could we keep adoring them (driven by pair-bond DNA)? No one is perfect, and everyone is vulnerable in some spots, then how could one “look up” or look down” anyone else?
I agree that the psychologist’s theory definitely applies to maddening or blind limerents in LE. Now, out of LE, I don’t think I can again look up or look down anyone, but (dis)respect or (dis)like them as an equal.
“When she met him, he was powerful (maybe a general ?) but not yet Emperor. And he was young, so his adoration may have come across as cringe.”
Yes, he was newly appointed a general “when a glimpse of her wounded him so deeply…”. When they married in 1796, she was 33, he 27. For young man at that age, a general or a hunchback, looking cringe after being hit by a Glimmer is quite normal or even cute.
“In the scenes I saw (and these are, I’m assuming, made up), he did. He barely knows her and tells her he’s in love with her and then starts spouting off all the things he’s found out about her. He is definitely drooling on her.”
He was falling in LE with her, but no drooling in my eyes — perhaps you haven’t got any drooling pet Limmy… But a stubborn, single, devotional limerent is more admirable (from my COO’s hardened logical eyes) than those partnered limerents who somehow “lost their sounding mind” even with a loving SO “wrapping” them around….
“Use what you got while you still got it. 🙂”
It sounds like a motto of an opportunists, isn’t it? But in front of life-or-death, I guess one would be wise to use anything to save one’s own children — Josephine’s reasoning.
“These are famous people. I don’t know them personally. I’m just going on their appearance and public persona.”
I don’t even care about their appearance or ultra-ego persona, but fictional characters they have acted on, or songs/music they have composed, or books/words they have uttered…. I have never fall for any celebrity, alive or long dead, but their works.
“I’m not worried about becoming limerent for them again. I don’t have any real desire to see them again. But if I could stand at a distance, undetected, and watch them … “
To me, the sad thing is that they no longer occupy any spot in my head, while once upon a time, they seemed to hold up the entire, colorful sky in my mind… It’s a big loss, no matter how healthy it is…
“there is a part of me that would like to see how I’d react to them and how they look now. “
I know I’d feel indifferent or surreal (happened before accidentally), which would make me sad and stranger afterwards… No one is growing younger, it’s better to remember their youthful face, which was constantly fondled in our mind during our LEs… 🥰 Without any effort, I remembered all my Glimmers, over 16 times since 12…. 😋
“Like you, I have nothing to say to them. We weren’t friends then and I’m not limerent now, so what would I have to say?”
I’d be curious to sincerely ask about their life, even just a bunch of facts… all humans’ life is more or less the same on the surface, only different inner sufferings, experienced knowledge, and gained wisdom/Agape distinguish one from another…
“Because I never meet anyone. And I’m hoping to get my mind off the other one. But I won’t renew my subscription once it runs out.”
Those casino/app men won’t help get anyone’s mind off a devilish LO/LE; if they can, limerent would fall into another LE with them. As we’ve learned from this site, only limerents themselves have the key to the door of their LE root; however, a lot of the time, they either deny it or find all sorts of excuses not to severing LE tie, as L.E. have keenly observed.
Snow,
“Also, when I binged tv-movies during a long break, I feel I’m passively observing other’s “fabricated, idealized lives”, not actively living or making my own realistic one more fulfilling.”
Do you mean movies that were made for TV? I believe they’re still making those for cable channels like the Hallmark Channel. They’re cheesy.
“Now, tell me some good stories/movies that have moved you, I like lengthy mini-series (less than 45 minutes) that tell gradual/slow developments and details; 2.5 hour movie is short & long in one go.”
Dying for Sex. It’s eight episodes. Each about 30 mins long. On Hulu.
“Now, I know for sure that I must looked really cringey, silly, pathetic in my ex-coworkers’ eyes…. ”
Actually, from what you wrote about meeting up with him and telling him about your limerence, I think he handled it really well.
“What’s differences of being “adored” and “admired”? ”
That’s a good question. I’d have to think about it.
“I always thought the two verbs are associated with a person’s qualities, but clicking with a Glimmer only takes 3-5 seconds, having little to do with one’s personality or anything rational.”
I’m not only talking about limerence. Obviously, you’d have to get to know someone to determine if they were worthy of admiration.
“I don’t remember I ever said “I admire you” or “I adore you” to any of my crushes or LOs”
I don’t know that I’ve admired a lot of mine, either. Although I did admire my college LO. He was very single-minded and driven. Very confident. I was impressed by him.
“But if we can soon or later spot flaws of “the adored”, then how could we keep adoring them (driven by pair-bond DNA)? No one is perfect, and everyone is vulnerable in some spots, then how could one “look up” or look down” anyone else?”
I think if you fundamentally admire someone for who they are, you’d always admire them. Doesn’t mean you see them as perfect. But that’s knowing who someone is. Not projecting all kinds of stuff on them through limerence.
“Now, out of LE, I don’t think I can again look up or look down anyone, but (dis)respect or (dis)like them as an equal.”
Agree, but there are people who have qualities I don’t have. There are people I admire because of it.
“For young man at that age, a general or a hunchback, looking cringe after being hit by a Glimmer is quite normal or even cute.”
It’s only cute if both people are falling in love at the same rate/same time.
“He was falling in LE with her, but no drooling in my eyes”
IMO, he was definitely drooling.
“— perhaps you haven’t got any drooling pet Limmy”
I had one. It’s not sexy.
“… But a stubborn, single, devotional limerent is more admirable (from my COO’s hardened logical eyes) than those partnered limerents who somehow “lost their sounding mind” even with a loving SO “wrapping” them around….”
I can’t throw stones as the single, devotional limerent. My last couple of LOs had partners. And I knew that. It’s not different, really. IMO
“It sounds like a motto of an opportunists, isn’t it?”
They don’t call it the battle of the sexes for nothing! 🙂
” …to use anything to save one’s own children — Josephine’s reasoning.”
She was a woman. So she had no power. And she was a widow on her own, with no protection. She used what she had.
“I don’t even care about their appearance or ultra-ego persona”
I do. 🙂
“but fictional characters they have acted on, or songs/music they have composed, or books/words they have uttered…. I have never fall for any celebrity, alive or long dead, but their works.”
I understand. But it’s not just their works. If I fall, I have to also find them appealing.
“To me, the sad thing is that they no longer occupy any spot in my head, while once upon a time, they seemed to hold up the entire, colorful sky in my mind… It’s a big loss, no matter how healthy it is…”
I don’t know if I see mine as a big loss. I only had one serious relationship derive from my LEs and … uh … trust me … it wasn’t a loss when it was over. 🙂
“I know I’d feel indifferent or surreal (happened before accidentally), which would make me sad and stranger afterwards”
Did you talk to him? Why were you sad?
“… No one is growing younger, it’s better to remember their youthful face, which was constantly fondled in our mind during our LEs…”
I guess it depends on how long ago the LE was. My most recent big LO wasn’t that long ago. He probably looks the same. The one from a year after high school? You’re right! I’d rather remember him as he was! 🙂
“I’d be curious to sincerely ask about their life, even just a bunch of facts”
I just don’t really care.
“Those casino/app men won’t help get anyone’s mind off a devilish LO/LE”
I don’t agree. You can meet someone anywhere.
TO MJ:
You need to think outside the box here. On the floor next to the utility room drain is just sad.
Consider incorporating your award into some sort of fountain or bird bath.
Public Service Announcement:
The Limmy Awards are on indefinite hold as the owner of the Hong Kong novelty shop DrL was working was recently arrested by the government. Apparently, The Limmys promote “decadent Western ideals.” DrL is attempting to find a new supplier.
The Committee (i.e., me) will continue to review nominations.
To L.E.:
Well, I am crushed. I was really looking for an excuse to dress up.
To Norma,
Regarding my “poem,” I doubt that a copy exists, not even with my former LO, whom I’ve not communicated with in 38 years. I use quotes because I didn’t compose it as a poem in the traditional sense, but instead tried to capture my thoughts, the major theme of the “trip,” which I knew would be ephemeral. But the LO loved it, I guess that’s my major impact on her.
BTW, I broke my NC vow the past New Year’s day by trying to connect with her on LinkedIn, which she hasn’t responded to. I was only mildly disappointed, since that was my baseline assumption. This is proof that limerance isn’t permanent; there is hope!
I have another NC failure update. I bumped into LO last night. He is beside himself over his house situation. He is now faced with either paying a usurious rate on a loan to close the escrow on his new house, or letting the new house go and losing his deposit.
He kept saying, “I’ve GOT to get out of here!!” which I found to be very insensitive since he knows I am crazy about him. He has zero problem gushing about the superiority of the opposite side of the country to where we live now.
I don’t have any sympathy for him because he did this to himself. This was a huge bonehead move, buying a house he couldn’t pay for and then being mad that he can’t close escrow.
I see this as a good sign for me overall. I am losing respect for him. To make matters worse, his mother has been severely ill this week, yet he still sees nothing wrong with dragging an 89-yo woman 3,000 miles across the country to satisfy his “aesthetic” desires.
I am appalled at his selfishness.
ND,
Do you live in a town that has one stoplight and one gathering place? How do you run into this guy so much? 🙂 I’ve been racking my brain trying to figure out how to run into mine, but I can’t come up with a way that isn’t really obvious so I gave up.
To Marcia:
No, we live in a large town but we are neighbors and shop at the same stores.
Marcia,
Whom are you trying to run into, LO, LO-lite, or a new date? 😀 How is your longing for him (or them) nowadays? Which # out of 10?
Snow,
“Whom are you trying to run into, LO, LO-lite, or a new date? 😀 ”
LO lite. (Haven’t met any new dates in person.) I’m not trying to run into him, but I have thought about it. But I know what it means if I have to resort to plotting and planning like that.
“How is your longing for him (or them) nowadays? Which # out of 10?”
Idk. It depends on what day/time it is. Sometimes I’ve resigned myself to the utter futility of it. Other times I hope to hear from him.
Marcia,
“But I know what it means if I have to resort to plotting and planning like that.”
You clearly know what kind of anxiety that would bring you, and you still want to get into that? Or your current work/life is so boring that it’s worth to try “lotting and planning”?
“Sometimes I’ve resigned myself to the utter futility of it. Other times I hope to hear from him.”
WHAT exactly do you hope to hear from him? That he perhaps wants you more than an “entertainment”? That his situation might have changed, so now he desires you more? Or that he’d risk his SO to have rendezvous with you?
If I remember correctly that you don’t think you and LO-Lite match well, he’s neither Butler nor Napoleon, the heart of both was able to focus on/devote to only one woman, so what’s keeping your longing alive for him? In the best imaginable scenarios, what would be the fruit you hope for?
Do you think your fluctuate longing is for him as a person, or for his desire/affection for you, or for something else (?) which you believe that his verbal affection/hot email could and would bring again?
Have you ever had time in your life that you were outside of the wall of Longing??
In COO, there has been a popular saying regarding marriage/relationship — those inside the Wall want to jump out; those outside the Wall desire to climb in…. 😀
“If you marry, you will regret it; if you do not marry, you will also regret it; if you marry or do not marry, you will regret both. Laugh at the world’s follies, you will regret it; weep over them, you will also regret that… Hang yourself, you will regret it; do not hang yourself, you will also regret that; whether you hang yourself or do not hang yourself, you will regret both. This, gentlemen, is the sum of all practical wisdom.” — Kierkegaard
I have no advice for you or anyone here… 😊
Snow,
“You clearly know what kind of anxiety that would bring you, and you still want to get into that? ”
I think part of me digs the anxiety.
“Or your current work/life is so boring that it’s worth to try “lotting and planning”?”
I’m NOT plotting and planning. I’m doing nothing. My point was … if you HAVE to plot and plan to get someone’s attention … you have your answer. And it’s not a good one.
There are things I’m looking forward to in my life that are coming up, but nothing that truly excites me.
“WHAT exactly do you hope to hear from him? That he perhaps wants you more than an “entertainment”? ”
Yes
“If I remember correctly that you don’t think you and LO-Lite match well, he’s neither Butler nor Napoleon, the heart of both was able to focus on/devote to only one woman”
Well, Napoleon had affairs, as did Josephine. And Butler didn’t exactly sit around as a monk and avoid women while he waited for Scarlett.
“Do you think your fluctuate longing is for him as a person, or for his desire/affection for you, or for something else (?) which you believe that his verbal affection/hot email could and would bring again?”
A version of myself I very rarely see and miss.
“Have you ever had time in your life that you were outside of the wall of Longing??”
To a degree. But part of my personality is always wanting more. Part of me always asks, “Is this it?”
But I stress … I’m not going to do anything about him. There’s nothing to do.
Marcia,
“I think part of me digs the anxiety.”
I don’t think anyone is born with the personality or neural wiring of “digging the anxiety”, it’s acquire somehow later. Most of normal children in a peaceful time is a ball of joy, totally anxiety free.
“My point was … if you HAVE to plot and plan to get someone’s attention … you have your answer. And it’s not a good one.”
Precisely! If one’s attention/affection — not their own validation seeking, cannot naturally gravitate towards you (collectively), forget about it! But I do think building a friendship/relationship takes healthy effort; but it’s next stage.
“There are things I’m looking forward to in my life that are coming up, but nothing that truly excites me.”
You mentioned it before (work related), I hope it comes through soon! When one has that unresolved Longing, nothing could excites him/her (like the old me), now I really KNOW…. With that Longing hanging, one does NOT know how to appreciate and enjoy other smaller beauties in life… 😊
[“WHAT exactly do you hope to hear from him? That he perhaps wants you more than an “entertainment”? ”]
“Yes”
That’s still limerent brain’s talking. I heard it repeatedly here…
“Well, Napoleon had affairs, as did Josephine. And Butler didn’t exactly sit around as a monk and avoid women while he waited for Scarlett.”
Well, we all know they all (not sure about Josephine) have just one central love sitting deep inside their heart, affairs are different and smaller matters….
“A version of myself I very rarely see and miss.”
Oh right, you mentioned this before. This version of you is already inside you, why can’t you just like it shine/radiate from within?
“To a degree. But part of my personality is always wanting more. Part of me always asks, “Is this it?”
That’s a common human nature, despite we all know insatiable desires only bring one pains. I think your question, fairly common in modern world, is related to one’s unknown /unresolved Longing, and to unwillingness/inability to accept life’s limitation and all things’/all beings’ impermanence.
“But I stress … I’m not going to do anything about him. There’s nothing to do. “
I’m happy to hear your resolution here! I just wish you suffer less or get free from such a futile longing. 🫂
Snow,
“I don’t think anyone is born with the personality or neural wiring of “digging the anxiety”, it’s acquire somehow later. ”
Not necessarily. I know you don’t like them, but a lot of people dig the thrill of things like roller coasters. It’s the same feeling.
“But I do think building a friendship/relationship takes healthy effort; but it’s next stage.”
Well, yes, but it has to be mutual. It’s not good if one person is driving the situation/nudging it along.
“You mentioned it before (work related), I hope it comes through soon! ”
It’s 90% set. It’ll be a totally different field. Something new to learn. It’ll be good. It’ll get my mind occupied.
“With that Longing hanging, one does NOT know how to appreciate and enjoy other smaller beauties in life… 😊”
I’ve had plenty of small beauties. I’d like some big stuff to show up. 🙂
“That’s still limerent brain’s talking. I heard it repeatedly here…”
I think he likes me as a person. Finds me appealing. But it’s not enough.
“Well, we all know they all (not sure about Josephine) have just one central love sitting deep inside their heart, affairs are different and smaller matters….”
Not every affair is the same. Some of them are meaningless; I’d imagine some are pretty important. But … and this is a big but … even the allure of an LO will fade over time if they become an SO. It’s inevitable.
“This version of you is already inside you, why can’t you just like it shine/radiate from within?”
Well, my dear, it’s only someone who comes out in the boudoir. 🙂 Or maybe if I had a friend who brought out that side of me. The devil side. 🙂 Seems unlikely at this age. Middle age isn’t exactly a time of thrills.
“I’m happy to hear your resolution here! ”
He knows where to find me if he wants to.
I’ve been thinking more about the complex relationship between limerence and living with purpose. Today’s e-mail from Dr L was on the topic.
It’s clear to me that my Limerent Episode started during a time that I wasn’t able to live purposefully and I simply had to survive. It was during Covid and I wasn’t even allowed to do some of the things that give my life purpose.
Following my purpose in life is definitely helpful in combatting Limerence, however the purpose itself is quite stressful. In artistic careers we always worry about being good enough and this stress can also fuel limerence!
As usual I’m afraid to go into much detail, despite everyone’s reassurances that my situation isn’t as unusual as I think.
My Brother
Today’s sermon was on Mark 10:45-52 in which Bartimaeus cried out to Jesus to “have mercy on me”. To which Jesus answered him “What wilt thou that I should do unto to you?” “The blind said unto him, Lord that I might receive my sight.” “Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole.” And then the blind man having received his sight again followed Jesus.
The pastor asked “what do you want Jesus to specifically do for you?” And immediately knew. Take this sin of limerence from me. Make me whole again. Not the broken sinful man that I am. I don’t want to be like this brother. Over Three damn years … But then as I prayed to God to take this limerence from me, I still prayed to God to look over her and her daughter. I told God I don’t know if it is wrong for me to ask this of you. But I asked if it is his will to please protect and watch over them.
I feel so lost brother. This limerence seems like Jesus being tested in the wilderness by Satan. But I am not preforming as well as Jesus. I want to say “get behind me Satan” but I keep failing.
Dear Adam:
I don’t want to get between you and MJ, and I am no Bible scholar, but I would like to ask, why do you think limerence is a sin?
“I want to say “get behind me Satan” but I keep failing.”
Brother Adam
I don’t believe you’re necessarily failing here. In the traditional sense. To pray for her is not a bad thing. Even if she were an enemy, you should still pray for her. Now unless you are outright lusting and desiring her over your Wife, then you have another issue you need to address. Not to sound too cliche, but the Good Lord will not give you any more than you can handle. Sometimes these thorns (LO’s) are given to us for a greater reason or purpose. Sometimes God does not immediately take these thorns right out, so that we are more dependent on God. Perhaps this is what is being requested of you. Only you know your level of thought-engagement over LO.
I often wonder why LO still affects me. Like I saw her in her creeping around in her car the other day in the parking lot when she got off. She was by Dudes truck waiting for him to come out. I know she saw me. I thought about waving, but I didn’t. It probably wouldn’t have been returned. If she was waiting for him, what would have been the point anyway? I probably still piss her off.
However I ruminated over that moment the rest of the night. She looked incredible too. These weren’t lustful thoughts or ruminations either. Just scenario thoughts I would’ve loved to see work out between us. I pray about them often. Sometimes I get mad at God too. Why won’t they go away? I guess so I can be more dependent on grace.. I don’t know man. I’m no biblical interpreter. Just a terrible Catholic and horrible Christian, trying to get by. I light candles for LO and pray Blessed Mother watches over her. At this point, everything is out of my hands. I like to think whenever I do actually run into LO again, I won’t look like such a Cad.. Maybe she’ll give me a chance.
LF is a good little Lutheran and goes to church every Sunday. Just like this terrible Catholic does every week too, but she’s always popping up somewhere in my prayer intentions.
Don’t sweat what you don’t see Brother. I think God has a lot of this under control. A wise Old Priest used to tell me, “If you ain’t what you is, then you is what you ain’t.”
There is truth in that quote..
Dear Norma and MJ
“why do you think limerence is a sin?”
“Now unless you are outright lusting and desiring her over your Wife, then you have another issue you need to address.”
I’ll try to answer these both at once. No lustful thoughts. In fact brother, I failed to mention in my post above, that it be him (the man she is with now) the instrument that God uses to watch over them. I only want them to happy and safe. But that is out of my hands. I can look over my wife and our son still at home. I know that I can protect and keep them happy. She and her daughter are out of my hands.
Dear Norma …. I think, as I am so well at doing, it is my way of making myself suffer. I guess, back in July, when I went to a function of a co-worker who invited my wife and I, Momma’s attendance was hinged on whether LO would be there or not. And she said the same of the upcoming Christmas party that work is having this year. I know I have done some, possibly, permanent damage to our relationship. That is my sin.
Brother
“Sometimes God does not immediately take these thorns right out, so that we are more dependent on God.”
I got to talk to the pastor after church yesterday. I told him the story of how I found their church. I googled “churches near me”. And while there is probably a dozen churches in a shorter mile radius from my house than their church, I still came here. And he said that wasn’t google that was God directing you here. And that has kind of stuck with me. If that was God’s direction than there is a reason that I am at this particular church now for almost 2 years. Maybe it because the pastor “speaks” to me more so than another pastor would. Or because of the brothers and sisters of the congregation that all greet me and welcomed me from day one.
“I light candles for LO and pray Blessed Mother watches over her.”
Before I sought out the church I am at, I went to a Catholic church twice. I asked, as I was leaving the first time, what the candles were for. And the sister I asked showed me how to light candles and pray. She was a very sweet older sister and I thanked her for showing me how to do it properly. I lit a candle and prayed for her again the second time I went to the same Catholic church. And same sister was there praying her own prayers. While Catholic ceremonies and traditions are interesting, I figured out Catholicism isn’t for me. But I will never forget that sweet old sister.
“LF is a good little Lutheran and goes to church every Sunday.”
I remember, before deciding to go to that Catholic church the first time, I told Momma “maybe I should try and Baptists church?” And she said “It’s your funeral.” It still has me more curious to this day what goes on in a Baptist church. 🙂
Adam, one thing I’ve found very helpful about this site, and Dr L’s approach, is that he treats limerence as a mental state that affects us. We can be non-judgemental and treat limerence analytically as a problem to be solved.
This problem is in our heads and it’s our heads we need to fix. If you pray for her, it’s just a sign that she’s uppermost in your thoughts. It’s not “right” or “wrong”. Just observe that the thoughts are there. The fact you’re here shows that the thoughts are unhelpful to you and you want to think about her less. Understand how you ended up thinking about her too much, and devise strategies for thinking about her less.
(Obviously my approach is a secular one, but I don’t think religious people will disagree with me.)
I totally get the actual science of limerence. And yes, Dr L and this community has helped me immensely in understanding the neuroscience of limerence.
“Understand how you ended up thinking about her too much, and devise strategies for thinking about her less.”
I regret that I let the limerence ruin what could have possibly been a lasting, healthy, ongoing relationship even after she left the job. I try for my thoughts to be healthy or neutral. And I think a bigger trigger than anything was more her daughter than her. I got close to her too, and I never had a daughter of my own, like I hoped for you both times my wife was pregnant. But we didn’t. We had two sons, which of course, I love and am proud of.
When I expressed concern about her daughter one time in regards to boys (her daughter was 15 when I first met her) she told me “I wished her own father expressed as much interest in her life that you do.” That moment was the closest I had to having a daughter of my own.
Ah, LOs and their children! I am very fond of LO’s son, who I teach. He and my son are friends and similar in some ways, but I have to be careful not to compare them because it’s not fair to compare ones kids with other people’s.
This is a very good response. Of course I wasn’t even thinking of this from a secular standpoint. Considering Brother Adam was bringing it to the table from the religious aspect.
The problem is infact in my head as well. Although I believe I have also well nurtured the idea that simply thinking of LO like I do is never a bad thing. Because I have no real relationship or SO to even come close to calling my own and/or actively working on improving. So therefore I can ruminate, desire, lust, want, cry over LO all I want and the only person I need to answer to about it is myself. My wanting LO affects nobody but me.
I think that is a lot of my downside. Is that I long for relationship again. The dating market has gotten so crazy. While I am elated I may finally be getting that metaphorical cup of coffee with a real Woman soon, the downside is I’m trying not to dread is actually starting over again. Getting to know someone is really hard. For me it is at least. I guess it would be even harder if LO was actually a viable option and was into me. I know I would be over-doing everything just to keep her happy. But I need to work on myself better. So that I’m not overwhelming anyone with my neediness.
I guess another I stick around here is for the company. I don’t keep a lot of real friends around. Especially talking to them about the personal matters I bring here. Some of you have known me for a few years in this forum. Some of you know me better than my real friends actually do. It makes me feel good often this is not a judgmental place. That many of you get and understand me. It has been helpful to me, more than you know.
I am feeling a little confused today. LO texted me this morning and told me that he has to fly suddenly to the house he is buying on the opposite side of the country for some kind of inspection. I don’t know exactly when he’s leaving or when he’s coming back. To make it even weirder, his escrow may end up falling through.
If anyone is following my story, LO’s mother was very very ill this week, and has improved only slightly since she had two bad falls last weekend.
LO wants me to check in on his mom while he’s gone, since I am a close-by neighbor. I am not exactly sure what I am supposed to do, and I don’t think I am strong enough to pick her up if she falls.
I am frail and elderly myself; I am happy to help, but uncertain as to what I should do. Wondering if I should wait to hear from either one of them? Mom has my number.
It probably wouldn’t hurt to go check on her now and then. Since it’s close. If there is an emergency, you would know and could just call for an ambulance and let the professionals take care of it.
If you’re not a designated caretaker though, it’s kinda rude of LO to think you should be.
To MJ:
I have all kinds of concerns. First of all, I don’t even know how to get into his house. You may recall that he has a huge property with two separate houses and some locked gates. I have no idea how to get into the gates or anything.
LO always comes out and lets me in. Hopefully Mom would be ambulatory and could either let me in or talk me through it. I have never even seen his entire property.
I hope nothing weird happens while he’s gone. He just assumed I would do this, he didn’t even ask. And of COURSE I will do it, but it’s a little presumptuous on LO’s part.
I hope he plans to give you keys/instructions for how to get in.
I’m pretty sure he left already.
This is so stupid.
Norma D,
I’d help her this time if she needs it. But when he returns, I’d make clear to him that you will not help again if he doesn’t discuss it with you/ask you if you’re available PRIOR to him leaving and give you detailed instructions about what she needs and how to access the house. That is just basic manners and common sense. It was obnoxious of him to dump it on you like this and assume you would do it.
To Marcia:
Thank you for your comments. Yes, it was obnoxious.
He’s a thoughtless person. It’s behavior like this which is driving me away.
Norma Desmond, are you able to check on her by phone? Do you have her number? That would be easier.
What a pain! I mean, nice that he counts on you and all that, but the roles you’ve ended up in with each other are not healthy for you. It just prolongs your state of limbo and not being able to move on.
To Miss Cloud:
Yes, I can check on her by phone, which is what I intend to do.
His houses actually face on two separate streets (he has two addresses on two different streets), and I have no idea how to get in on either side. His mom lives in the back house, which I am less familiar with than the front house.
I am resentful that he would ask me to do this without even asking first. OF COURSE I will help, but good grief.
Good grief indeed!
Poetry in Small Language
Damir Šodan
translated from the Croatian by James Meetze
Cork, Ireland
is like a church bell
in some remote village
tolling mutely in the evening
through the musty provincial air
self-obliviously
and quite self-sufficiently
—one might add—
if it weren’t for the pair of those
ragged sheep
huddled before the rain
on the empty lot
in front of a stone barn
bobbing their whitish little heads
here and there
just to let you know
that regardless of medium
the message will always
arrive at the destination.
*****
Poezija u malom jeziku
Cork, Irska
poezija u malom jeziku
je kao zvono
u zabačenom selu
što tuče muklo s večeri
kroz memlu provincije
samozaboravno
i poprilično samodovoljno
—reklo bi se—
da nije tih par kuštravih ovaca
skutrenih pred pljusak
u oboru
ispred kamene pojate
što malo-malo
trznu bjelkastim glavama
da ti daju do znanja
da bez obzira na medij
poruka uvijek
stiže na odredište.
What Comes
Carolyn Forché
1950 –
J’ai rapporté du désespoir un panier si petit mon amour, qu’on a pu le tresser en osier.
I brought from despair a basket so small, my love, that it might have been woven of willow.
—Rene Char
to speak is not yet to have spoken.
the not-yet of a white realm of nothing left
neither for itself nor another
a no-longer already there, along with the arrival of what has been
light and the reverse of light
terror as walking blind along the breaking sea, body in whom I lived
the not-yet of death darkening what it briefly illuminates
an unknown place as between languages
back and forth, breath to breath as a calm
in the surround rises, fireflies in lindens, an ache of pine
you have yourself within you
yourself, you have her, and there is nothing
that cannot be seen
open then to the coming of what comes
I have been dating, online and offline, for months now. Various people. The good thing is that I am not currently limerent and haven’t been since before the divorce started about a year ago; the bad part, dating sucks. Period. The only way I get through it is just being decisive early on as to why this person may or may not be a good fit. And sometimes they make the decision for me, which is ok too. There has been a ton of communicating on my part and others’ parts, so that’s a plus. Lots of weird ghosting too, which I assume are from catfishers. Modern dating is not fun. Do not recommend 😆
To Limerent Nurse:
I can believe that modern dating is not fun! I have not dated since the early 1980s, when it was considered “high tech” to meet someone through a dating service.
I actually met my former husband through a singles newspaper ad, and people were enchanted at how exotic that sounded.
I am very very old.
I was too young then, but I remember the “long walks on the beach” trope. 🙂
Hi Norma,
Nowadays there’s even more stuff to wade through — ethical non-monogamy, partnered couples looking for more partners, one guy looked like he had a harem (seen pics of all these). In a way if people are upfront about things, it’s easier to decide so it takes some of the guesswork out. I don’t know. It’s just a tool for helping me get back out there and see what’s what, since I was married for 15 years and chose to be single five years before that. It’s taken me the better part of a year to figure this all out and get a better idea of what I’m looking for what I hope someday will be my true *soulmate*.
Miss Norma
My wife and I met via the internet in 1999 and got married sight unseen. She lived 8 hours away from me. Both our parents thought we were crazy and that it would never last.
My wife asked me a few years back when we were driving somewhere if I would date if something happened to her or our marriage. I said, no, to dating. But I wouldn’t be oppose to a relationship with another woman if it developed organically like ours did.
Limerent Nurse just confirmed my apprehension if in that situation even more.
All my significant crushes have been on people I knew in some fashion: school, work, even people I met online. We didn’t have dating apps when I was single. I just can’t imagine trying to date total strangers. It doesn’t sound appealing. But someone I’ve known long enough to get an idea what kind of person they are, and feel attracted to them, sure.
Hi Adam,
Good to see you again. Yes, I too would prefer to meet people organically, and at times I do, but it’s not as easy when your life is work, kids and church. At least dating apps help me feel like I am putting myself out there a bit and trying to get to know new folks. And it’s helping me get back in the mindset of finding ehat I like and don’t like. So it has it’s pros. But the cons are many, and I do hope you’ll never have to worry about that 😊
Limerent Nurse
Good to see you back here again too. Glad to hear that things seem to be going well for you.
I think the big difference, thinking on your post, for me in regards to dating would be the distinction between something happening to my wife (illness, death) vs divorce. The former would be a stronger motivation for me to actively find someone to save me from myself over the latter. I think divorce would sour me on another committed relationship. Where death would drive me to the same self-destructive behavior I had prior to meeting my wife. My wife and our sons have saved me from myself.
I saw your posts to Dame Marcia …. Hispanic men huh? And MJ and his Latina women. 🙂 Back in my dating days I liked the sisters. The visible reaction on the faces of my circle of friends/family upon meeting my wife in person for the first time and seeing she was white was hilarious. I didn’t consciously know I had a preference. It was just the kind of women that caught my attention.
Good luck with the dating. I think I am the opposite with you in your situation. I think that I would go after women older than me. But you probably don’t have the same mommy issues I do lol If I can’t look after myself than I’d need someone to do it for me. Though I am sure there isn’t many women that find that attractive. That’s why I let my brother MJ chase Dame Marcia, because she ain’t gonna be in a mother role for some old man like me. 🙂
Now I’m in the dog house. :-/
Limerent nurse,
“The only way I get through it is just being decisive early on as to why this person may or may not be a good fit. ”
How do determine who you want to talk to or go out with ? If you’re on the apps. I mean that in all seriousness. Do the pictures move you on some level? (I find that not to be true. Maybe it’s my age bracket.) And then … most of them have almost nothing in their profiles. Or almost nothing.
Hi all,
There is some great discussion on here this evening, on this and other threads. Its nice to see some familiar faces back on the blog, even if only temporarily.
@Marcia,
Re:
“How do determine who you want to talk to or go out with ? If you’re on the apps. I mean that in all seriousness. ”
Although I’m married and no longer looking, I sympathise with you. Do you find it hard to find somebody attractive no matter what, these days? I guess I am referring to our age bracket (ducks to avoid side-eye :)).
In the old days, I used to be so open to attraction. It happened easily and frequently (admittedly, I am going back decades here). But these days, nothing. Obviously I am not looking, but there are zero men that I find attractive anymore. I wonder if this is why my one-and-only LO had such an impact on me.
I think you re LaR had lots of chats about attraction, which I followed and I don’t want to drag you back there, just to say that, apps-aside, I think attraction is really a different proposition in middle age. Its more mysterious, to me, more rare and difficult to understand its drivers. When I see the men that some of my single female friends end up dating, I actually shudder, as I just cannot see the attraction. I can see why a single lady might end up limerent over someone due to attraction being such a unicorn event (obviously assuming the usual barriers or uncertainty applied to tip things over into an LE). If its so rare, it ups the stakes?
This is probably not helping, sorry.
Bewitched,
“Do you find it hard to find somebody attractive no matter what, these days? I guess I am referring to our age bracket (ducks to avoid side-eye :)).”
Yes. And I don’t consider myself a shallow person and the men I’ve been most attracted to in my life have not been the traditionally hottest guys in the room, but I have not been interested on a physical level in the guys who’ve matched with me since I’ve been back on a dating site for about 2 weeks. And I can hear myself when I think stuff like that. I know it’s cringe. Super cringe. If a man my age wrote that about women our age on the site, I’d want to slap him. 🙂
“In the old days, I used to be so open to attraction. It happened easily and frequently (admittedly, I am going back decades here). ”
It never happened easily for me. But it’s worse now that I’m in the golden years. 🙂
“But these days, nothing. Obviously I am not looking, but there are zero men that I find attractive anymore. I wonder if this is why my one-and-only LO had such an impact on me.”
And that’s the problem I’m having getting over the latest LO.
” I can see why a single lady might end up limerent over someone due to attraction being such a unicorn event (obviously assuming the usual barriers or uncertainty applied to tip things over into an LE). If its so rare, it ups the stakes?”
Well, therein lies the problem. Because then you’re a slave to it. Physical attraction is actually a small part of it when it comes right down to it. HOWEVER … it gets things going. It kicks things off. It’s the catalyst. Without it, you have no motivation to want to get up and get dressed to go meet the person.
Hi Marcia,
I didn’t explain myself very well. Many of you know that I am very into my faith, so when I read the apps, I see if there is any mention whatsoever about a possible match in faith. If there is, and I think there’s a possibility of attraction on my end, I put in a ‘like’ or whatever. If there’s ever a response, I start with a basic convo through the app; if they’re not weird or catfishers (gotten easier to decipher) we’ll exchange phone numbers; then, from that texting thread, we decide if we want to talk on the phone or do a facetime. If that goes well, we plan a date. If that goes well, we just keep communicating until we decide it’s a no-go. It’s a bit of a process, and most of the time it stops anywhere early on in that process.
I don’t use the swiping apps anymore because those are just pretty much hook-ups. I put a lot of unappealing Christian requirements on my bio so that people know what I am about 🙂 and so I don’t get a lot of calls, which actually is nice because it weeds out people who just want hook-ups, friends with benefits and the like. Not a lot of people are jumping at the chance to date a mid-lifer with three kids who is in ministry. Ha.
To Marcia,
About attraction… I know myself enough to recognize if there is attraction or potential attraction not only by their photos but also by the other info on their bios — are they funny? Do we have stuff in common? Can they spell?! Then if we have a fun little conversation, I have to hear their voice. Can I stand it? Then, if I can, and they ask me out, that’s the real check to see if there is still chemistry. I am in my early 40s and I find myself attracted to 35-48 range. I am also mostly only attracted to Hispanic men, or men who are dark-featured and have black hair. Kinda shallow, but it’s what I keep going back to (my ex was none of those things, but all my LOs were to some degree). I am not attracted to grey hair unless it’s salt and pepper on a Hispanic man 😄 I am not attracted to much older men. And since I don’t string people along or let them string me along, there is no limerence happening. I think my main barrier (being married) was the major factor in making my limerent experiences so overwhelming. Now that there isn’t that barrier, it’s just “meeting new people” and seeing where it goes.
Limerent Nurse,
Thanks for answering.
“Can they spell?! ”
How about … can they have ANYTHING in the profile! 🙂
“I have to hear their voice. Can I stand it? ”
ITA!
“I am also mostly only attracted to Hispanic men, or men who are dark-featured and have black hair. Kinda shallow, but it’s what I keep going back to (my ex was none of those things, but all my LOs were to some degree). ”
Like the luscious Ricky Martin? 🙂 You like what you like.
“I am not attracted to much older men.”
Where is MJ? Is he reading this? 🙂
Sorry. Couldn’t help myself.
I wish you luck. I’ve just decided … if I like the pictures and the profile, fine. But I’m not going to force myself. I’m just going to play it by ear. If it happens, it happens.
“Modern dating is not fun. Do not recommend 😆”
Second that.. ✌🏻
@Marcia,
Maybe Ricky Martin in the ’00s when I didn’t know he was homosexual 😆 For some reason, my major Mexican crush used to be Diego Luna from “Y tu mama tambien.” Probably the only time I may have had limerence for a superstar.
I use certain apps that require bios. If they have next to nothing on them, I pass. I assume they’re lazy, uninterested, uninspired, etc.
I am different in that I have found myself attracted to men even in their 20s — I went on a date with the most handsome East Indian man. He was 28. We had a nice few weeks. But come to find out, he had a lot of issues he had to work out so I said good-bye.
I dated someone for five weeks and we were crazy for eachother. He even said he wanted to court me. But then he learned he wasn’t supposed to be dating during that year (he genuinely didn’t know/becoming a pastor) and once the year was up, he was too overwhelmed with life and beginning his ministry that he couldn’t conceive of starting a relationship right now.
Other than that, it’s just been a series of meeting people and realizing quickly it’s not a good fit. And I prefer that to stringing someone along or vice versa. I’m looking to date for marriage, and I practice celibacy til then, so I don’t expect anything fast to happen. I know, Marcia, the horror that must be on your face when I said the “c” word 😃
💙
Limerent Nurse,
” For some reason, my major Mexican crush used to be Diego Luna from “Y tu mama tambien.” .”
I didn’t know who he was. I had to look him up. Yes, please. 🙂
“I am different in that I have found myself attracted to men even in their 20s — I went on a date with the most handsome East Indian man. He was 28. We had a nice few weeks. But come to find out, he had a lot of issues he had to work out so I said good-bye.”
But if you’re looking for a committed relationship, could you see that happening with a man in his 20s?
” he was too overwhelmed with life and beginning his ministry that he couldn’t conceive of starting a relationship right now.”
Sorry that didn’t work out.
” I’m looking to date for marriage, and I practice celibacy til then, so I don’t expect anything fast to happen. I know, Marcia, the horror that must be on your face when I said the “c” word 😃”
Ha! For a minute, I thought the “c” word was commitment. 🙂 I don’t think there’s anything wrong with waiting until you meet the right person.
MJ, LN,
Everyone has some beliefs in life, and I just believe that my next BP — Beloved Person/Pirate, is NOT in any of dating apps, but out there in the edgeless sea….
I’d just steadily sail my little boat, with my both feet in, to the end of the sea… If by chance I bump into this BP, c’est la belle vie; if not, “c’est toujours un voyage enrichissant”…. 😊
Sonnet LIX: Love’s Last Gift
Dante Gabriel Rossetti
Love to his singer held a glistening leaf,
And said: “The rose-tree and the apple-tree
Have fruits to vaunt or flowers to lure the bee;
And golden shafts are in the feathered sheaf
Of the great harvest-marshal, the year’s chief,
Victorious summer; aye, and ’neath warm sea
Strange secret grasses lurk inviolably
Between the filtering channels of sunk reef.
All are my blooms; and all sweet blooms of love
To thee I gave while Spring and Summer sang;
But Autumn stops to listen, with some pang
From those worse things the wind is moaning of.
Only this laurel dreads no winter days:
Take my last gift; thy heart hath sung my praise.
@Marcia,
The 28-year-old man was up for commitment actually
… he just failed to mention he had ADHD so bad that he couldn’t hold a job, and didn’t have plans to fix that… so, yeah, not trying to be his second mom. Plus, he was part of a religious sect I couldn’t get behind, so many incompatibilities, but maybe not in the way you’d typically think. We had a lot of personality chemistry and laughs though. But that was a bit of a one-off. I keep to late 30s and mid 40s these days 🙃
💙
LN,
“The 28-year-old man was up for commitment actually”
I would worry he’d want kids and I think you already have some ? Unless you wanted more. I see 60-year-old men who put in their profiles they’d be up to have kids with the right person. And they usually already have kids. Nope! I click right out of that! Dude is cray! 🙂 Why would you want to start all over again with a newborn at 60?! Going to be pushing 80 when the child graduates from high school.
Toward the End
Carolyn Forché
1950 –
In this archipelago of thought a fog descends, horns of ships to unseen ships, a year
passing overhead, the cry of a year not knowing where, someone in the aftermath
who once you knew, the one you were, a little frisson of recognition,
then just like that—gone, and no one for hours, a sound you thought you heard
but in waking darkness is not heard again, two sharp knocks on the door, death
it was you said but now nothing, islands, places you have been, the sea the uncertain,
ghosts calling out, lost as they are, no one you knew in life, a moon above
the whole of it, like the light at the bottom of a well opening in the iced air
where you have gone under and come back light, no longer tethered
to your own past, and were it not for the weather of trance, of haze and murk, you could
see everything at once: every moment you have lived or place you have been, without
confusion or bafflement, and you would be one person. You would be one person again.
@Marcia,
No, he didn’t want kids. I put it in all my bios that I am unable to have children because my tubes are tied. So, yeah, if I ever come across a younger man (or any man) who’s interested, I make sure that is established immediately. I don’t like to waste time, mine nor theirs. But a man does have to have a 1. Job, 2. Functioning car, 3. Not live with parents/family, and 4. A faith expression that is compatible with mine. He didn’t have any of those sadly, and three put of four because he didn’t want to medicate for his ADHD. Sad times for him. I am all for neurodivergence, but not if it means I am taking on a man-child.
Speaking of ADHD, at least three men told me up front that they have ADHD, including 28 year old man. All non-medicated. And they all present in totally different ways. So fascinating. I love the human brain.
💙
Limerent Nurse,
“But a man does have to have a 1. Job, 2. Functioning car, 3. Not live with parents/family, and 4. A faith expression that is compatible with mine. ”
Those seem reasonable to me. Personally, 1-3 are important to me. One guy didn’t have a functioning car and wanted me to pick him up. At his house. For the first date. No can do. 🙂
“He didn’t have any of those sadly, and three put of four because he didn’t want to medicate for his ADHD. ”
What does medication do for ADHD?
“And they all present in totally different ways. So fascinating. I love the human brain.”
How do they present?
Do you tell them you’re celibate? I’m just curious how that goes over because … well … it’s not like casual sex isn’t on tap on these apps.
@Marcia,
I tried to respond with a lengthy response yesterday and of course technology made it go away without being saved 🙃 so here’s a quick response:
Meds can improve people’s executive functioning if it’s related to ADHD. For some, it helps with focus and follow through. I am not an expert on it, but have learned from people and parents who have had their kids on it at times, they see a noticeable difference. They’re not as easily distracted. I imagine that’s what it would do for the 28-year-old man, so that he could have a job and a life, but I’m just speculating.
The second guy didn’t have it bad enough seemingly to need to medicate; he just said it’s easier for him to do stuff with his hands (like eat food) when talking to me because it helps him focus… but he was/is able to be an entrepreneur and still do life well.
The last guy, we only got as far as a phone talk, but he was talking 100 miles a minute and constantly pacing his business while we were talking. Glad it didn’t work out though; his voice was “not the one.”
Yes, I will either disclose in my bio that I practice celibacy until marriage or let them know upfront. Keeps a lot of unwanted attention away from me. That way, if I know they’ve read my bio, they know what they’re getting into. (Or, rather, NOT getting into.) 😀
💙
Limerent Nurse,
“I tried to respond with a lengthy response yesterday and of course technology made it go away without being saved 🙃 ”
That’s happened to me. It’s so frustrating.
“The last guy, we only got as far as a phone talk, but he was talking 100 miles a minute and constantly pacing his business while we were talking. Glad it didn’t work out though; his voice was “not the one.””
What are the odds that you’ve attracted/been attracted to 3 guys with ADHD? (I don’t know what the time frame of being introduced to these guys online was, though.) Was his voice “not the one” because he was talking so quickly or because you didn’t like the sound of it? That one guy I went out with … when we talked on the phone … I wasn’t crazy about the sound of his voice. It wasn’t horrible, but it wasn’t sexy. You know those guys whose voices you hear and you think: Damn. 🙂
“Yes, I will either disclose in my bio that I practice celibacy until marriage or let them know upfront. Keeps a lot of unwanted attention away from me. That way, if I know they’ve read my bio, they know what they’re getting into. (Or, rather, NOT getting into.) 😀”
I think it’s a good idea to be clear about you want and relay that. What I don’t like is people who tell you what they don’t want. “No narcissists, no gold diggers …” There’s no way to do that without coming off as negative.
I did just start messaging with someone. His pictures are ok. I’m not knocked over but he’s kind of cute. But I liked his bio. Thought we’d have things to talk about. And he’s actually asked me some questions about my bio. So he read it and he is trying to start a conversation instead of just, “How are you? How’s your day going?” But … (you knew there was a but) … it takes him a while to get back to me. A good 24 hours. Which isn’t horrible but it’s not great. So we’ll see.
One of my children just did something that made me cry.
In the past, I would have reached out to LO, but I would not dream of it now.
Guess I am making some progress.
Norma….
Yes that is progress… good for you!
I understand very well what my Lim Brain tries to get me to do!
p.s. did you reach out to your child?
To NTL:
No, my child reached out to me after many years of shunning.
She was not unkind. She asked me about some things that she needed for some paperwork.
The reason I cried is that she did not know anything about me, despite me having told her numerous times. She did not know where I was born, or the spelling of my middle name or my maiden name.
I gave her the information she needed and then broke down.
When you talk to her, do you ask about her? What she’s up to. How her job is. I don’t know what her personal situation is, but do you ask how her personal life is going? If she’s married or has kids, etc.
@Marcia,
I, too, thought it was quite interesting that three people disclosed their ADHD to me right off the bat. I don’t know how common it is, but the coincidence was not lost on me. Also, I apparently attract a lot of men who’s names start with the letter J… very interesting.
The guy with the voice… even though he was straight, he sounded like a gay Hispanic man. If a man has a voice that is even remotely effeminate, no-can-do. I know it’s not his fault. But the feeling was mutual after our convo: not interested.
I think my year of dating apps is winding down. I feel accomplished that I set out to meet new people. And did. Once the apps run out, I’ll just continue to focus on getting involved at my church and see who turns up fown the road. It’s probably my best bet 😆
But keep letting us know how yours go! It’s fun to hear others’ experiences!
💙
Limerent Nurse,
“I, too, thought it was quite interesting that three people disclosed their ADHD to me right off the bat. ”
It sounds like they felt comfortable disclosing that to you.
“If a man has a voice that is even remotely effeminate, no-can-do. ”
I understand. The guy’s voice I mentioned … his voice was nasally and not particularly masculine (though I wouldn’t call it effeminate). I remember thinking, when I first heard it: Oh, that’s unfortunate.
“I feel accomplished that I set out to meet new people. And did. Once the apps run out, I’ll just continue to focus on getting involved at my church and see who turns up fown the road. It’s probably my best bet 😆”
Do you meet a lot of single guys at church? The last church I attended … most were a lot older than me. If they were even single. 🙂
“But keep letting us know how yours go! It’s fun to hear others’ experiences!”
Ok. 🙂 Not much is happening now. And I wish men who lived far away (up to 10 hours away!) would stop liking/messaging me. (I have my profile set to within 20 miles.) I’m not driving hours to meet a stranger. It ain’t happening. 🙂
@Marcia,
After the divorce and my life changed, I started going to a larger church that I think is just wonderful. It’s 30 min from my house, but totally worth it. It has the diversity leaning toward the Hispanic side, so hoping/praying that a nice, single 40-something-year-old will materialize someday 🤣 Until then, I will keep doing what I love, which is worship/singing, and meeting wonderful people. I am not going there just to find a husband; I genuinely connect with their beliefs and their warmth. Where I live in Cali, the majority of Hispanic men are Catholic, so it’s nice to meet people who are Protestant. I don’t know yet if there are a lot of single men, but it is a larger church and I’ll leave it up to them to approach me and find me if they’re interested in getting to know me. Until then, might has well buckle doen and do what I love doing, making new friends and connections, and enjoying the process.
I understand the difficulty with the long-distance thing. I gave up “liking” people not in my general region. If they want to “like” me and travel, fine, but not me. I am learning that if a man is anything less than 100% enthusiastic to meet and travel to me, it’s probably not gonna happen. The pastor guy made it a point to travel to me 40 min each way to see me. He never asked me to travel. He paid for everything. He was a true gentleman, and I appreciated that. If nothing else, he showed me what a real man would do for a woman he liked.
Maybe I should mention, I started attending the church he goes to, after he/we made it abundantly clear he didn’t mind at all…. on the same note, I had to be 100% sure in my heart that it wasn’t about him. Now, we serve on the same team and have extremely minimal contact. And we’re both doing what we love. So, it’s all good.
I am happy to say that I am not limerent for him or anyone, and haven’t been limerent in years. I was able to communicate with the LO and the two LO-lites and just rule them all out for relationships. So, it feels like a fresh start.
Marcia, what are you seeking? What are your wishes and requirements?
Yes, a nasally/unattractive voice can kill a romance on the spot 😄 but I guess it’s just a part of the process to finding the right one!
💙
Limerent Nurse,
“so hoping/praying that a nice, single 40-something-year-old will materialize someday 🤣”
I’m sorry. I laughed out loud at this. 🙂
“I don’t know yet if there are a lot of single men, but it is a larger church and I’ll leave it up to them to approach me and find me if they’re interested in getting to know me. ”
If it’s a big enough church, there may be a singles group. Or even some side ministry groups that you could get involved with. There might be people in the group who know a lot of other church members and they may know who the single guys are … and they could introduce you. You never know.
“The pastor guy made it a point to travel to me 40 min each way to see me. He never asked me to travel. He paid for everything.”
I don’t really expect a man to do all of that, all the time. But I’m not, for example, driving 90 minutes, one way, to meet someone half-way. If things happened to go well, how do you date someone who lives so far away? It’s a major project to meet up for a quick dinner.
“Now, we serve on the same team and have extremely minimal contact. And we’re both doing what we love. So, it’s all good. ”
It’s good you’re able to go to his church.
“I’m not limerent for him or anyone, and haven’t been limerent in years. … Marcia, what are you seeking? What are your wishes and requirements?”
Well, therein lies the problem. I am somewhat limerent for someone, though it is getting better. And I know this is someone I need to stay away from and I know that, even if I were to ever be able to date him normally (not possible, but it’s a hypothetical), those feelings would eventually fade. And I know my brief interaction with him caused me a lot of pain (and gave me pause about him as a person). But … and here’s the but … I haven’t been that excited about anything in years. And how many more of those is the Universe going to give me, at my age? So I know meeting someone on a dating site can’t begin to compare. I log onto with a certain bracing resignation. 🙂 A friend actually asked me that the other day. “What are you looking for?” It’s a hard question to answer. Depends on which Marica you’re talking to. 🙂
To Marcia:
We have been estranged for many years. This is the first contact I have had in over five years.
Ok. So that would have been even more appropriate. To ask how she was doing. What she was up to. Is she still living in the same place, etc.
To Marcia:
She didn’t want to talk. She just wanted the info to fill out the forms.
I obviously don’t know what your dynamic is. Or your history is. And I don’t know if it would have been possible to segue into more personal conversation. It was just something that came to me when reading your post. I have family who might say I know little about them. But they make little effort to know anything about me.
I’m sorry, Norma. How heartbreaking for you. 🙁
To Serial Limerent:
Thank you for understanding.
To Marcia:
We have been estranged for YEARS. She doesn’t speak to me.
She only wanted info to fill out a form.
We are not on speaking terms.
She hates me.
Yes, but expressing interest in her may open the door. Let her know you care how she’s doing. I’m assuming you have her phone number if she called you. Shoot her a short text that you hope she’s ok and you hope her (fill-in the blank) job is ok, husband is ok … and you’d be open to talk if she ever wanted to.
Marcia:
She won’t engage with me. I don’t know how to explain it any better.
Norma:
“I don’t know how to explain it any better.”
I understand that. You’re doing it without the expectation of a response. So in the hopes that some day she may be willing to engage and she knows you’re open to it. A little text for Christmas or her birthday.
She may never be willing to engage. Idk. But at least you’ll know you made some effort. (And this is on the assumption you want to talk again. Which I’m assuming you do.)
To Marcia:
I text her every birthday and Christmas and she does not answer.
She doesn’t want to talk.
She needed info for some bank forms.
She doesn’t know my maiden name, my middle name, when I was born, or where I was born. That made me cry.
Norma,
“I text her every birthday and Christmas and she does not answer. She doesn’t want to talk.”
I’m sorry she’s not responding.
“She needed info for some bank forms. She doesn’t know my maiden name, my middle name, when I was born, or where I was born. That made me cry.”
I read what you wrote. This family member I mentioned will send me emails occasionally but they’re like Christmas newsletters. All about him. It’s off-putting. Which is why I asked if you were making an effort to ask about her. But if she won’t talk to you, you can’t do that.
To Marcia:
I am sorry I am not explaining it very well. She will text every few years and then, when I attempt to pursue the conversation, she just stops answering.
Norma D,
“She will text every few years and then, when I attempt to pursue the conversation, she just stops answering.”
I’m sorry. Hopefully some day she’ll be in a place where she wants to communicate with you.
ND, I’m so sorry. Have a big LwL hug from all of us.
To Miss Cloud:
Thank you for that hug. It really hits the spot.
@Marcia,
I am glad you laughed out loud! No need to apologize; it was supposed to be funny 😆
My church doesn’t have a singles group, but we do have a very large dinner/bible study weekly and I am able to meet new people that way in a more relaxed, informal setting. I am glad we don’t have a singles group. They are always so awkward 😅 Plus, once I start on stage in a month or two, I will have no choice but to be seen. I don’t mind it. I’ve been doing music ministry on and off for almost twenty years.
I know getting settled in new environments takes time, and I am enjoying the process.
When the pastor would visit me, we would go for rides for hours to get to know eachother, or to neighboring towns and see a movie or have a meal. It really helped us get to know each other. I really appreciated the time he took to get to know me.
I know that limerence can make things so exciting that it makes other interactions pale in comparison. But I also know it’s not real love, and I want the real love. When I first met the pastor guy, I wasn’t smitten right away. It wasn’t until we had a date or two that I realized, wow, I really like him, and he quickly grew on me and the chemistry and connection grew super fast. 👌 It also helped that he was super into me, too. It wasn’t one-sided at all. It was encouraging.
The problem is, he didn’t say we were a “no-go” forever; it seemed more like a “no-go” for right now because his life got really busy. BUT I have to treat it as if it’s a “no-go” forever because if I don’t, I could fall into waiting/limerence for a man who isn’t reciprocating. And I just can’t do that. He’s the only guy I would let come back for me if he wanted to. But if he doesn’t, at least I’ll already have moved on.
**
I had a guy contact me yesterdaythrough an app, just looking for a friend. He disclosed he thinks he has OCD and we talked about that. I think the fact that I am a nurse makes it easier for people to tell me these things?? 😆 Actually, I gave him space to talk and we talked for a few hours through the app. It was great because he was upfront that he just needed someone to talk to. It’s nice to help people. By the way, he’s 54. I can’t imagine having OCD all my life and never having told an MD to try to get help. I guess it’s never too late!
💙
Limerent Nurse,
“I am glad you laughed out loud! No need to apologize; it was supposed to be funny 😆”
I’m still waiting for the Universe to drop an available, interested, actionable hot man in front of my door. You need all three! It’s never once happened! 🙂
“Plus, once I start on stage in a month or two, I will have no choice but to be seen. I don’t mind it. I’ve been doing music ministry on and off for almost twenty years.”
Will you be singing or playing something?
“When the pastor would visit me, we would go for rides for hours to get to know each other, or to neighboring towns and see a movie or have a meal. It really helped us get to know each other. I really appreciated the time he took to get to know me.”
That’s great that he was trying to get to know you. I don’t know how you feel about it, but I’ve read it’s best to keep early dates to about 2 hours. It keeps the interest up to want to learn more ?
“I know that limerence can make things so exciting that it makes other interactions pale in comparison. ”
It does. It’s really hard to get excited about some stranger on a screen with a couple of paragraphs in a bio.
“But I also know it’s not real love, and I want the real love.
I agree. It’s not love. It’s insanely high interest. I would like to experience it before I get off this planet. Mutual limerence. Not with someone who’s not available, of course. And not with a creeper. 🙂
“When I first met the pastor guy, I wasn’t smitten right away. ”
What did you think initially? When you first met him.
“It also helped that he was super into me, too. It wasn’t one-sided at all. It was encouraging.”
But would there have been … too into you?
“The problem is, he didn’t say we were a “no-go” forever; it seemed more like a “no-go” for right now because his life got really busy. BUT I have to treat it as if it’s a “no-go” forever ”
That can be hard to do. And you’re ok with seeing him weekly at church?
“I had a guy contact me yesterday through an app, just looking for a friend. He disclosed he thinks he has OCD and we talked about that. I think the fact that I am a nurse makes it easier for people to tell me these things?? 😆”
Do you say you’re a nurse on your dating profile? Do you find that attractive? Someone telling you his “stuff” so quickly? Personally, I wouldn’t. It would turn me off.
“By the way, he’s 54. I can’t imagine having OCD all my life and never having told an MD to try to get help.”
He’s never gotten help?! I worked with someone who had it once. It was … not fun.
Ok, so that guy messaged me back and left me his cell number. To talk or text. So far I’m liking the conversation.
@Marcia,
When I first met the pastor guy (we did meet on an app, surprisingly) I think we’d already had a phone call or two, and I think we had texted a bit, so I knew he could hold a conversation, had a good voice, and that we vibed through texting. When we met in person, it was at a local tea place and I think it lasted 1.5/2 hrs. Everything was fine, except he had a weird outfit on. It was like a combo of country pants and boots, a flannel shirt and a modern baseball cap/hat. It was not his best outfit. Thankfully, he doesn’t normally dress that bad, as I came to find out from subsequent dates 🤣
His being “too” into me was not a bad thing; in fact, it felt completely natural and mutual, because we had discussed so many important topics early on. He didn’t express it right away but maybe like date 4 or 5, when he said he really, really liked me and wanted to court me, and even started to tell.his son about me?… but then it came to a screeching halt.
No, it no longer bothers me to see him. I sing on the team. I don’t play any instruments, though I used to play a mad tambourine on occasion at my old church when we had a hoppin’ song.
The 54-year-old guy said he only wants a friend right now, and thankfully he explained not a friends with benefits 😆 So, that’s when I shifted out of dating mode to nurse-mode when he said he wanted to talk about how he thinks he has OCD.
Yes, I put my profession on my apps. I am very transparent. Maybe too transparent? Not sure, but it’s just me.
Is it a turn-off when people disclosed these things? Not really. It helps me understand them better. I like to dive into deep stuff, if they are wanting to. Better than people trying to fake me out that they have it together when they don’t. I see it as a sign of maturity. But, yes, he said he’s going to tell his MD and try to get help/medication, since he feels he needs it. I am just talking to him as a friend, which is fine with me. Everyone needs a friend now and then.
So you want to experience mutual limerence? Please keep us posted on how your connection goes! I want to hear the good, the bad and the weird 😀
I wouldn’t want to restrict dates like that because of some arbitrary rule. In college, I finally started dating a mutual LO; on the second date, which at the time was supposed to be a “friendship” date, it started with a movie but moved to his family’s house and then to campus and ended up lasting for hours and hours. We just enjoyed each other’s company so much, and the “friendship” thing soon fell apart, lol.
LN, your time with the pastor sounds promising, so the romantic in me hopes that he does come back for you. 🙂
Limerent Nurse,
“and that we vibed through texting. ”
I have experienced “vibing through texting” … and I regretted not doing a phone call. Because when we met face to face, I struggled a bit to make conversation. He was fine over texting but in person he was a bit abrupt.
“When we met in person, it was at a local tea place and I think it lasted 1.5/2 hrs. ”
The one guy I went out with … I think the first date was around 2.5 hours or 3. And that’s a lot of talking, one-on-one. I needed to recharge after that.
“Everything was fine, except he had a weird outfit on. It was like a combo of country pants and boots, a flannel shirt and a modern baseball cap/hat.”
You weren’t attracted to him right away?
“but maybe like date 4 or 5, when he said he really, really liked me and wanted to court me”
What does that mean? Court you? Date and be exclusive?
“but then it came to a screeching halt.”
Sorry. That must have been disappointing.
” I used to play a mad tambourine on occasion at my old church when we had a hoppin’ song.”
That’s called “representing”! “I’m just here with the band.” 🙂
“The 54-year-old guy said he only wants a friend right now, and thankfully he explained not a friends with benefits 😆”
I had someone tell me that’s what he wanted. An fwb. Which I didn’t mind in theory but he mentioned this after asking me out and then not following through on making the actual plans (with a date and time). So it felt like he had no intention of following through on the date and just wanted to hook up. That felt like a bait and switch.
“Yes, I put my profession on my apps. I am very transparent. ”
It may be that people feel comfortable telling you stuff because of your profession.
“Is it a turn-off when people disclosed these things? Not really. ”
Personally, I think it is if it’s that early in knowing someone. You hadn’t met yet, right? Just started messaging? This online stuff is a learning experience for me, but the guy I dated asked me some pretty serious and personal questions on the first date. In retrospect, I see that as a bit of a red flag. Those should have been saved for after we got to know each other a bit.
” But, yes, he said he’s going to tell his MD and try to get help/medication, since he feels he needs it. I am just talking to him as a friend, which is fine with me. Everyone needs a friend now and then.”
They definitely do. Just be careful it’s not too one-sided. You deserve to have support as well.
“So you want to experience mutual limerence?”
Yes, mam. 🙂
“Please keep us posted on how your connection goes! I want to hear the good, the bad and the weird 😀”
There’s plenty of the weird. That’s for sure. 🙂
I think I’d like to court you Ms. Marcia.. 😂
You’ve never heard that before? Really?? 🤔
I don’t wear weird outfits either.
Unless you want me to. Hope that isn’t too weird.. 😆
MJ,
“You’ve never heard that before? Really?? 🤔”
I know the definition of the word “court.” But it sounds like something a character from “Little House on the Prairie” would say. 🙂 And what does it mean in today’s dating world?
“I don’t wear weird outfits either. Unless you want me to.”
I don’t want you to do anything but set a date and time for your pizza outing with the lady at work. 🙂
You need a wingwoman, my friend. 🙂
Hello all.
I am not really sure if I have a Bless LE or Cursed one
I am mid 60’s, my Friend ( a term I prefer as opposed to LO ) is mid 30’s
Both married, co-workers for about 18 months, Limerent for her about almost a year now. I am really certain my Friend knows that I love her as a Friend ( well, I have told her that a few times ) and get along pretty good
WE do not hang out after work as an example
we go on daily lunch walks, over an hour… my Dear Wife knows, not super happy, but is trying to understand Limerence and my “addiction” and that Friend is just a good friend
We share a lot ( is it an odd Emotional Affair ? ) and really enjoy our time together.
I have NO desire to stop the walks, and her company / presence
I have found without being very regularly in her presence, that I SUFFER…. complete brain fog, only being able to think about her, etc. I suffer in the mornings before our walk, and even shortly after the walk. The truth is, I would spend all day with her if I could.
My wife has said that I would go for a walk with my Friend anytime Friend asked, and I could not deny it.
Anyways… I know this is unique, my Wife knows and is working on Understanding
And my Friend and I spend much alone time together which is lovely
But I am in pain a lot. Blessed and Cursed
Hello NTL,
You say you have no desire to stop the walks, or her presence. I think your wife is being very understanding. She must love you very much. I feel as though you’re taking advantage of her and I don’t think this is helping your situation.
Are there any actions that you are willing to take to get out of your limerence situation? I feel as though your altered state of mind is keeping you trapped and preventing you from helping yourself.
What would you do if your wife issued you with an ultimatum?
thanks for the GOOD questions…. I ask myself these things sometimes
I truly appreciate my wifes understanding. She has seen my suffering, she knows why, and is being patient
I believe it is helpful to her to know that this is NOT really about LO and my wife knows I place HER ( my wife ) first
I tried to explain to her it is basically an addiction, and it will pass
My “plan” is that either my Friend will move on to another job, or I will retire. That would become NC. Perhaps in a year or so??
I feel, that from our MANY walks / talks, that my Friend enjoys having someone to talk with, and her husband is not very demonstrative / expressive about his feelings. Perhaps she gets that attention / open affection from me? She does know, but does not openly acknowledge it, that I love her ( as a friend / daughter )
I tried twice to have her maybe choose someone else from our workplace to walk with… she did not want to hear about that and became upset. So, since I am “addicted” to her and she wants to continue… we continue.
As an odd aside… in the last month, in my mind, I a couple of times called her my long-left stepdaughters name. I feel that my Friend is in many ways a “replacement” for her ( they are about the same age ).
oh, and I should add… my Friend and I are in NO way compatible at ALL. Different culture, social status ( she is quite above me ), life experience, goals, etc
Really, it is odd that we are any more than very casual co-workers.
That said… I think she is Awesome, and Special and Glows!
I have NO desire to “be with her”
I simply CRAVE being in her company ( just the 2 of us… in a group it is useless )
Limerence is odd
Ah … the confiding. It’s the bait that got me hooked. The longer I worked with her the more comfortable she got in confiding things to me. Throw in she was a single mother with a daughter and an ex that cheated on her, I didn’t have a chance.
Our kids are grown, my wife and I had been married for almost 23 years at the time … to feel needed again; God what a feeling. She’d preface a relationship question/asking advice with “Adam you’ve been married 23 years you would know. How/what/should I …..?”
Well I am sitting here letting another woman confide in me, so clearly I don’t know.
Adam
Yes … confiding and sharing thoughts and feelings does create intimacy and connection
Especially as she knows I NEVER tell anyone ( even my Wife, who does NOT wish to hear about our walks ) what we talk about… so she speaks freely
I think I have dug my own hole, but it was gradual and I didn’t notice
Just bumped into her now at the water cooler… nice pleasant chat… nice “hit”, never enough
Then she would make sure I ate lunch everyday. When I worked in the warehouse (this was in the middle of summer) she would make sure I stay hydrated in the heat. She would scold me about my smoking because I have a heart condition. At least now if I ever get to see her again I can tell her I quit smoking thanks to her getting on me about it.
I don’t know about other men, but that “mothering” stuff makes me weak in the knees. I am a pretty self sufficient person but it was nice knowing a woman was looking out for me.
Lots and lots of mistakes that I ignored my feelings about because they made me feel good. Thankfully, for me, there was never any contact outside of work. Or you could say, unfortunately, as contact outside of work would have been a red flag for me to consider what I am doing more intellectually. But because I kept it strictly at work I could justify it to myself.
I didn’t always tell or have ever told my wife some things we talked about. I confided in my wife about my limerence when I found this community as my wife was already suspicious of us when I would talk about my work day with her. But, yeah, I knew there were somethings that best be left unsaid.
Hi NTL,
I was a work walker with my LO for more than a decade, while happily married. It has all crashed and burned now that she has rushed headlong into a serious relationship – leaving me feeling utterly abandoned and very hurt by the sudden end of our friendship. Be careful about what lies ahead for you emotionally my friend.
Does “rushed headlong… etc” sound a bit resentful? Well… she was single for years but moved in with him four weeks after they met, and they are now buying a place together after fewer than four months.
Madness in my eyes and I’m hoping it just gives me the ick!! 😄
Phil,
I know the end parts of this have caused you such a lot of pain, but I’m still sort of in awe of how you carried all that on for a decade. The cognitive dissonance of splitting my attention had honestly done me in with it after 2 years – there just ‘wasn’t enough of me left’.
Another poster also wrote something on here a while ago that after 2 years their (work) LE developed more like how a relationship often goes – the honeymoon and novelty wears off and then you see beyond the shine. This is certainly something that happened to mine around the 2 year mark and was helpful to me.
But a decade man – how, just how?!
All things aside, I don’t mean to seem to trivialise or judge here. I hope the rapidly evolving changes (the ‘ick’) open up your route to freedom eventually.
@Serial Limerent,
I do, too 😀 But until/unless he picks up where he left off, I’m gonna have to emotionally move on.
💙
@Marcia,
The pastor guy wasn’t my usual type of Hispanic man I would look at and say “I am attracted to him.” His pic was cute, but I clicked on his bio because we had a lot in common in other ways. He is the kind of person who looks different in photos than in person. It’s not his fault, some people just do. However, I am learning to have an open mind as I learn to date again. I was more attracted to him as I got to know him in person. I felt a connection, we made each other laugh, he was excellent on communicating and following through; I felt safe, protected, cherished…. my attraction to him grew as we spent more time together. I think I fell in love with him a little bit. So, yeah, I was pretty devastated when he had to halt things, but I understood he needed the space to launch his ministry, and probably handle other things in his personal life.
I don’t value the first-glance attraction as much as I used to. I value the whole package, especially if it’s mutual. I would hope a man would love me for me, not just how I look. I have been on plenty of dates/talks with what I consider 10/10 men, but they fizzle out without that common spiritual ground or the mutual chemistry.
He asked early on if I was seeing/talking to anyone else, and I said no. When he said he wanted to court me, it meant he wanted to make it known that he wanted to date me with the intent for marriage. This happened within 4-5 weeks of us intensely getting to know each other. It means exclusively dating, remaining celibate, with the intention of dating for marriage. He always was upfront when he said he wanted a “wife.” That didn’t scare me off; instead, that let me know he was serious in getting to know me for that purpose.
💙
@Marcia, MJ
MJ has been eavesdropping on our conversation… but he wants to marry you, so what do you say? He’s a limerent, you’re a limerent… could be mutual 🤣 He’ll even wear weird outfits for you. Like, maybe he’ll wear an animal suit? Dress like Michael Jackson because his name is MJ after all? Maybe his voice is extra nasally, but you might like it. Just give it a try. I don’t know, I think I see sparks here…
💙
LN,
“I don’t value the first-glance attraction as much as I used to.”
I agree that it doesn’t mean you’ll have a good relationship. Unfortunately. But it sure is great when you feel it.
” I value the whole package, especially if it’s mutual. I would hope a man would love me for me, not just how I look. I have been on plenty of dates/talks with what I consider 10/10 men, but they fizzle out without that common spiritual ground or the mutual chemistry.”
When I say attraction, it’s not all about physical appearance. It’s also voice, mannerisms, their energy, etc. And the guys I’ve been attracted to aren’t necessarily “10s” in terms of their aesthetic appearance.
“When he said he wanted to court me, it meant he wanted to make it known that he wanted to date me with the intent for marriage. This happened within 4-5 weeks of us intensely getting to know each other. It means exclusively dating, remaining celibate, with the intention of dating for marriage.”
Ok. Gotcha. If that’s what you’re looking for, that’s great. Personally, I think I would have been a touch freaked out by that. That he wanted to date me exclusively and not have sex with other people and be a boyfriend … after 4 or 5 dates, I could see that happening. But that would be after about a month of seeing each other.
“MJ has been eavesdropping on our conversation… but he wants to marry you, so what do you say? He’s a limerent, you’re a limerent… could be mutual 🤣”
Yes, but he’s limerent for someone else! No, thank you. And he likes women 20 years younger. No, thank you. 🙂
“I don’t know, I think I see sparks here…”
I think you’re delusional. 🙂
Now, he does need a wingwoman. And I could do that. I’d have him talking to his damn LO! I don’t care if he doesn’t want to talk to her. I WANT HIM TO TALK TO HER! I’m tired of hearing about it. 🙂
I can imagine MJ finally managing a mumbled “hi” to his LO after your prodding. 🙂
Serial,
“I can imagine MJ finally managing a mumbled “hi” to his LO after your prodding. 🙂”
Oh, no no. The time for a mumbled hello is over. That was YEARS ago.
I would physically shove him into her. That’d get them talking. 🙂
“MJ has been eavesdropping on our conversation…”
LN,
I couldn’t help myself. I have to check in with Mother Marcia now and then, to let her know I haven’t dropped off the planet yet..
I definitely don’t have a nasally sounding voice. I have been told I have a unique voice, but not in a negative sounding way. She should leave me her number and let me give her a call. Perhaps I might sound a little more appealing than the current Dudes she’s cheating on me with. Then, maybe you’ll get to see some of those sparks fly..
“He likes women 20 years younger. No, thank you. 🙂”
Marcia,
More like 24 years. And exactly 24 years because don’t forget LO and I share the same Valentines Day birthday. 😆
“Now, he does need a wingwoman. And I could do that.”
Yes I could use that too. I’ll screw something up and get nervous or giddy. Then you’ll have to help me clean up my mess. 😉
“I’d have him talking to his damn LO! I don’t care if he doesn’t want to talk to her. I WANT HIM TO TALK TO HER! I’m tired of hearing about it. 🙂”
You’re tired of hearing about it? I’m tired of talking about it. I want to talk to her just as bad but I think she’s past me now.
Just sayin.. Anything I do will probably be futile. Besides she’s still seeing Dude and he’s as big as a house. I see him leaving the gym at Work often. He’s not a very threatening looking type. I’m not really small myself. But if I did get on his bad side, I shudder to think how it might go. 😑
@MJ,
So the woman you like is already talking to/in a relationship with a big Dude? Definitely a good idea to stay away. But if she’s on the market… I see dating as a “ruling out” of sorts, even with the LOs and LO-lites, or anyone I meet for those purposes. To me, it’s important to have closure of sorts, so that the “what if?” isn’t always hanging over my head. It helps me get rid of any “crush” feelings or limerence once it’s established it’s not going to happen. Does that resonate with you? Is that something you could try?
💙
@LN
Do most limerents want closure? I don’t think they do.
@Marcia,
As a serial limerent, I acknowledge that the highs are wonderful, but the lows are not worth the highs anymore. And now that I logically and emotionally know that limerence is just a hightened sensation, I don’t want it anymore. Ever. I would be ok with mutual falling in love… but I don’t want limerence, and for me to actively not be limerent for someone is to either have closure and/or let the limerence fade on its own, which takes about a year for me once no contact has begun. So, for me, the sooner I can rule someone out as a potential love interest, the sooner I can prevent any potential limerences happening. It’s my way of protecting myself.
💙
LN,
“So, for me, the sooner I can rule someone out as a potential love interest, the sooner I can prevent any potential limerences happening. It’s my way of protecting myself.”
That’s the best way to do it. But what you do wasn’t my question. 🙂 I was asking what most limerents do. Closure means the death of hope. So I think getting an answer — any answer, even if nebulous– is avoided. It’s a subconscious (or maybe even conscious) way to keep the LE going.
Marcia,
“Not necessarily. I know you don’t like them, but a lot of people dig the thrill of things like roller coasters. It’s the same feeling.”
From what I’ve read, majority of ADHD, or even people digging the thrill of things, are not born that way; they’re reactions to their early childhood environment. Most babies and young kids hate to be physically shaken or hear loud voices, harsh/impatient sounds. If ignored or neglected, they’d find any means to get their caregivers’ attentions, including ADHD.
“Well, yes, but it has to be mutual. It’s not good if one person is driving the situation/nudging it along. “
Of course, I meant mutual. I always reiterated, It takes two to tango.
“It’s 90% set. It’ll be a totally different field. Something new to learn. It’ll be good. It’ll get my mind occupied. “
Yes, it would be the best way to get one’s mind occupied and productive/creative. I hope to hear your good news! 💪
“I’ve had plenty of small beauties. I’d like some big stuff to show up. “
Who doesn’t⁉️ But one should not hang one’s high hopes too much on big stuff, which may or may not ever come, especially when involve others — Stoicism.
“I think he likes me as a person. Finds me appealing. But it’s not enough.”
I think that’s the same with me in my last LE. You said I “demanded” too much… Yes, I never want to be the “third” leg — “Little Three” in COO term.
“Not every affair is the same. Some of them are meaningless; I’d imagine some are pretty important. But … and this is a big but … even the allure of an LO will fade over time if they become an SO. It’s inevitable. “
An affair becomes meaningful only when it fruits — when one leaves SO and ties a new marital knot with LO (like Sting). Otherwise, most affairs are just one LE after another. Not every SO becomes boring, based on Helen Fisher’s MRI — 15.6% percent still in love after 25 years.
“Well, my dear, it’s only someone who comes out in the boudoir. “
Your enneagram is 4, mine is 5, which might mean the boudoir is the most important to you, while the library is to me. In a moderate, ideal house, I’d like its rooms in this order — library/study, garden, bedroom, kitchen and dining/living room. Library feeds mind, garden/kitchen nurtures creativity…. and boudoir “drains” one’s brain out… 😉
“Or maybe if I had a friend who brought out that side of me. The devil side. “
How a friend could bring out your “devil side”?
“Middle age isn’t exactly a time of thrills. “
I’m wondering if you are taking some rejuvenating elixirs? 😊
*****
“Do you mean movies that were made for TV? I believe they’re still making those for cable channels like the Hallmark Channel. They’re cheesy. “
I never subscribed any cable channels, and rarely watch any TV (most of them cheesy in both worlds). xSO was a TV “addict” (constantly flipping through channels), which drove me to roof… I only watched movies or BBC miniseries. If having time, I preferred books, poetry, written words, including news.
“Dying for Sex. It’s eight episodes. Each about 30 mins long. On Hulu.”
I’ve only scribed Netflix, which I barely use; free Tubi provides more documentary, arty, biographic stuff. The title of the series does not sound interesting to me, sorry I sound so judgmental without even peeking at it.
In general, I’m not interested in others’ desire for sex; perhaps for lasting profound love. I didn’t grow up in a culture that stresses or over-rates sex so much… Sex is something one does, not watch…
“Actually, from what you wrote about meeting up with him and telling him about your limerence, I think he handled it really well. “
He never told me how he felt/thought about my disclosure; up to this day, I have no/little idea. I did/do not care about it in the end but felt/feel good that I put an “The end” on a confusing but beneficial chapter of my life, and told him so as a “goodbye” to him.…
[“What’s differences of being “adored” and “admired”? ”] “That’s a good question. I’d have to think about it. “
Although having complained, I still admire a lot of stuff that Dad had taught/trained me, but I did/do not adore him. In my upbringing, I (we) did not know what “adoration”/“admiration” meant. The concept of adoring or admiring another individual was unheard of or heavily frowned upon/criticized — It’s a communist system; individualism was/is evil! So I never knew how to use the two words. I only used “love” in writing (to xSO, earlier LOs?)
“I don’t know that I’ve admired a lot of mine, either. Although I did admire my college LO. He was very single-minded and driven. Very confident. I was impressed by him.”
I was only impressed by classical literature readers or poetic spirit/aura; otherwise, they bored me quickly. But cultured qualities did not necessarily make me emotionally click with them (e.g. with LO5).
“I think if you fundamentally admire someone for who they are, you’d always admire them. Doesn’t mean you see them as perfect. But that’s knowing who someone is. Not projecting all kinds of stuff on them through limerence. “
“but there are people who have qualities I don’t have. There are people I admire because of it. “
I’d still use the word “love”, not “admiration.” Like you, I could look up/admire one’s special talents, skills, merits, personality traits which I lack. But admiring a person as a whole still sounds “grant” to me. When the word used to me, I did not understand what it meant and the speaker did not explain, either.
[“For young man at that age, a general or a hunchback, looking cringe after being hit by a Glimmer is quite normal or even cute.”] “It’s only cute if both people are falling in love at the same rate/same time. “
I think you’re focusing on the end again. It’s normal especially for youth to fall in love/crush; of course, requited one seems to be cuter than unrequited one, leading one side unhappy (not necessarily, e.g Quasimodo, who just wants and is happy to do loving deeds to Esmeralda.)
[… But a stubborn, single, devotional limerent is more admirable (from my COO’s hardened logical eyes) than those partnered limerents who somehow “lost their sounding mind” even with a loving SO “wrapping” them around…]
“I can’t throw stones as the single, devotional limerent. My last couple of LOs had partners. And I knew that. It’s not different, really. IMO”
I didn’t “throw stones” at partnered limerents, but was thinking that even the quality of their LE is less “pure” 😃 or less intense, or substantially diluted than single, devotional Limmies. In COO, we say “step one’s feet onto two boats”, neither of which is stable but just wobbly! I guess you can say that their LE pains are “weaker”, since both their LO and SO distract/pull their mind criss-cross while being with the other.
Nonetheless, single or attached, wise or stupid, we were all inflicted by this “alter state of mind”, like a mental cancer, who could help it⁉️ But after LwL, one could learn and master the skills of walking away from the limerence “slot machine”!
[“I don’t even care about their appearance or ultra-ego persona”] “I do.”
I did not grow up in celebrity-worship culture, so couldn’t care less about those stuff. In COO, we have an idiom that translates like “You’ll die of anger if you compare yourself to others” — or “Comparison is the thief of joy”. I said before that I was never jealous/envious of any other women, including Binoche, that’s totally true. So when I got helplessly jealous for the first time at ET’s unappealing Pet, you can imagine how FURIOUS I was at MYSELF, which finally made me realize what was happening to me — insufferable! 😖
“I understand. But it’s not just their works. If I fall, I have to also find them appealing.”
There are many appealing celebrities, but I just could/did not fall for any, including Dimash, whom I even touchingly dreamt about. They all had nothing to do with me personally.
“I don’t know if I see mine as a big loss. I only had one serious relationship derive from my LEs and … uh … trust me … it wasn’t a loss when it was over. “
Aside from Narc #3, & #6, my other crushes and LO were decent enough. Anyone, good enough, who was once in my mind and no longer is, would be considered a loss to me. After all, how many people we could have met and “made stories” with during our short life? Even one’s rivals/enemies are one’s teachers! In that sense, all experiences are equally valuable, despite many people tend/try to forget or erase negative or unpleasant ones… Every coin has two sides!
[“I know I’d feel indifferent or surreal (happened before accidentally), which would make me sad and stranger afterwards” “Did you talk to him? Why were you sad?”
Whom you’re referring to? I mentioned here before that I went back to visit LO#1 a dozen years later, but got almost crushed due to his continuous “LE sufferings” (due to me) despite of his good wife and son. I could/can not bear seeing others’ tears/sad expressions.
I only bumped into xSO once in a very busy street, and Narc LO#6 once in a bakery in my neighborhood. xSO walked up from behind me, “Have we met before somewhere?”; then we chatted briefly and amicably; I felt sad and strange afterwards, he was already remarried by then….
LO#6 and I didn’t even say “hello” — I didn’t recognize him three years after the total NC until suddenly I stood in line right behind him (couldn’t be sure it was him) — how pathetic/sad! He sent me a LinkedIn invite immediately afterwards, but I only saw it three months later (who checks there!).
There’d be no way I could run into ET, unless to attend our mutual ex-colleagues//friends’ funeral/memorial services in the future, how somber that could be!
“I guess it depends on how long ago the LE was. My most recent big LO wasn’t that long ago. He probably looks the same. The one from a year after high school? You’re right! I’d rather remember him as he was! “
Only in last fall, I got an urge to check them online — all of them (couldn’t locate LO1) looked “unrecognizable”…. (maybe also true me to them)… Trust me, it’s the way better to remember as they were!
[“I’d be curious to sincerely ask about their life, even just a bunch of facts”’ “I just don’t really care. “
At the bottom of our shared life collectively, they/we are all flawed human beings, not innate devils; any my curiosity would always get hold of my heart firmly… ahead of other concerns.
[“Those casino/app men won’t help get anyone’s mind off a devilish LO/LE”] “I don’t agree. You can meet someone anywhere”
That’s true in theory, never happened with me when I was in apps off and on for 8 years after the divorce. (You certainly read what LN wrote last night). As I said before, one can’t Fall while knowingly checking holes or cracks on the ground. One falls in crush/Glimmer usually when one is least prepared, not after having American hairdo, spreading French perfume, and then hopping into a taxi in 👠 👠 … 😃
I think Trifles might be a girl who won some slot machines after a couple of weeks, as Dr L alludes. I wish a winning night comes soon to you and LN. 🍀 🍀
Snow,
“From what I’ve read, majority of ADHD, or even people digging the thrill of things, are not born that way; they’re reactions to their early childhood environment. ”
Nah. Kids love merry-go-rounds. They love rides. It’s the same thing.
“I hope to hear your good news! 💪”
Thank you.
“Your enneagram is 4, mine is 5, which might mean the boudoir is the most important to you, while the library is to me.”
It’s not so much sex as it is feeling something deeply. It’s a heightened world.
“and boudoir “drains” one’s brain out… 😉”
It definitely distracts. 🙂
“How a friend could bring out your “devil side”?”
Be a bit of a risk-tasker. Have a wild side.
“I’m wondering if you are taking some rejuvenating elixirs? 😊”
More like sedating elixirs … they’re called middle age! “)
“I only watched movies or BBC miniseries.”
What miniseries do you recommend?
” The title of the series does not sound interesting to me, sorry I sound so judgmental without even peeking at it.”
You do sound judgmental. 🙂 Read up on it. It’s very good.
” I did/do not care about it in the end but felt/feel good that I put an “The end” on a confusing but beneficial chapter of my life, and told him so as a “goodbye” to him.…”
And he allowed you to have that closure. He was gracious in listening and it sounds like you had a good meeting. Often, we don’t get such official closure with someone. I’ve only had it with one ex-LO. After that meeting, I walked away thinking: I am finally done with this! Freedom! 🙂
“Although having complained, I still admire a lot of stuff that Dad had taught/trained me, but I did/do not adore him.”
I’d say “adore” is more an implication of love (doesn’t have to be romantic) and “admire” is more about someone’s qualities or accomplishments.
”I’d still use the word “love”, not “admiration.” Like you, I could look up/admire one’s special talents, skills, merits, personality traits which I lack. But admiring a person as a whole still sounds “grant” to me. When the word used to me, I did not understand what it meant and the speaker did not explain, either.”
I’d say “admire” is a strong word. But a person doesn’t have to be a Nobel Prize winner for me to admire them. I have a friend who is very good at talking to people. Can walk into a room full of 50 strangers and feel perfectly comfortable. I admire that.
” It’s normal especially for youth to fall in love/crush”
That’s true. I forgot how young he was.
“I didn’t “throw stones” at partnered limerents, but was thinking that even the quality of their LE is less “pure” 😃 or less intense, or substantially diluted than single, devotional Limmies.”
How do you know it’s less intense?
“There are many appealing celebrities, but I just could/did not fall for any, including Dimash, whom I even touchingly dreamt about. They all had nothing to do with me personally.”
Did you go to his show? I can’t remember when it was.
“Aside from Narc #3, & #6, my other crushes and LO were decent enough. Anyone, good enough, who was once in my mind and no longer is, would be considered a loss to me. After all, how many people we could have met and “made stories” with during our short life?”
But that’s exactly what they were: stories. I don’t know how well I even knew my LOs. With the exception of one who became a boyfriend. And … uh … it would have been better if he’d remained a mystery. 🙂
“Whom you’re referring to?”
I thought you wrote that you bumped into ex-LOs.
“I only bumped into xSO once in a very busy street, and Narc LO#6 once in a bakery in my neighborhood. xSO walked up from behind me, “Have we met before somewhere?”; then we chatted briefly and amicably; I felt sad and strange afterwards, he was already remarried by then….”
Did you still have some limerent feelings for him?
“LO#6 and I didn’t even say “hello” — I didn’t recognize him three years after the total NC until suddenly I stood in line right behind him (couldn’t be sure it was him) — how pathetic/sad! He sent me a LinkedIn invite immediately afterwards, but I only saw it three months later (who checks there!).”
That’s wild. You didn’t even recognize him right away.
“There’d be no way I could run into ET, unless to attend our mutual ex-colleagues//friends’ funeral/memorial services in the future, how somber that could be!”
I’ll never see any of mine again. I’m not in the same area as they are. The only one I could ever possibly bump into is LO-lite. But it’s unlikely.
“Only in last fall, I got an urge to check them online — all of them (couldn’t locate LO1) looked “unrecognizable”…. (maybe also true me to them)… Trust me, it’s the way better to remember as they were!”
It’s funny you write that. I did look up my high school LO a few months ago. I think I found him online, although I’m not 100% sure. His current pic was a bit jarring but the pic that really surprised me was the pic from high school. In my mind, he was this rougish, devilish creature. In the picture, he was almost cherubic. A boy next door.
“At the bottom of our shared life collectively, they/we are all flawed human beings, not innate devils; any my curiosity would always get hold of my heart firmly… ahead of other concerns.”
I just don’t see them as ever having been a big part of my life. With one exception, they weren’t. So how they’re doing is irrelevant to me now.
“I think Trifles might be a girl who won some slot machines after a couple of weeks, as Dr L alludes. I wish a winning night comes soon to you and LN. 🍀 🍀”
I just found out a new acquaintance met her husband online. I’ve decided that … what happens, happens. If I like the pics and bio of someone who “likes” me … I will message him back. But I’m not going to force anything and I’m otherwise going to focus my energies on other stuff.
Marcia,
Did you see this about Darcy on BBC news yesterday? The figure is inexhaustible 😀! I like it.
https://bbc.com/culture/article/20250908-why-readers-are-wrong-about-mr-darcy
Snow,
I saw that article yesterday. I skimmed it.
Mr. Darcy is rather insufferable. Only made likeable by the luscious Colin Firth. 🙂 I know there are other versions. I will not watch them. 🙂
I like to watch Colin Firth especially whenever he’s pissed up by Elizabeth or other characters in different movies, he’s so good and cute in playing it… making him more teasible ! 😆
Miniseries “Lost in Austen”, (2008) is also fun, love to see how all the characters’ roles and stories are changed and twisted, and shocked by a 21St young woman, who makes 27k pound a year (modern) — “more than” Mr. Darcy! 😆
Snow,
“I like to watch Colin Firth especially whenever he’s pissed up by Elizabeth or other characters in different movies, he’s so good and cute in playing it… making him more teasible ! 😆”
He is three syllables: De-li-cious! 🙂
“Miniseries “Lost in Austen”, (2008) is also fun, love to see how all the characters’ roles and stories are changed and twisted, and shocked by a 21St young woman, who makes 27k pound a year (modern) — “more than” Mr. Darcy! 😆”
I watched the trailer. It’s not my kind of show. It seems gimmicky. I would prefer to just watch movies or TV series of Austen’s books. You know what’s good? The movie of “Sense and Sensibility.” 1995 film. It’s terrific.
Marcia,
“I watched the trailer. It’s not my kind of show. It seems gimmicky. I would prefer to just watch movies or TV series of Austen’s books. “
“Lost in Austen” is 4 parts (50 mints each) series, and I watched it twice. it’s imaginative but the story line sticks to Austen, except switched Lizzie with this modern girl. Despite 200 years apart, the two eras still shared some common humanities while altering some characters’ characters to see where it can bring us to…
I don’t think it’s gimmicky or mischievous, I like such “rebellious” and fun (caused by misunderstandings) attempts to alter any establishment. I also watched “Once upon a time” for its all 7 seasons — breaking the myths of those faire tales in modern eras!
“You know what’s good? The movie of “Sense and Sensibility.” 1995 film. It’s terrific.”
I watched it before, alsosome important scenes lately; I still prefer a longer miniseries. I’m always hungry for details of stories.
I forget when I first read Sense and Sensibility, if it was before or after seeing the movie. But when it came out, I had just graduated from college. I was with current SO by then, but had only just gone through breakups that hit me severely in the past few years, turning former SO’s into LO’s. A friend joked that I was Elinor and she was Marianne. But both in the book and the movie, Marianne’s breakup grief was VERY familiar. I realized I was Marianne. It’s one of the reasons it’s one of my favorite Austen novels. I feel “seen.” 🙂
Marcia,
The system refused to upload my long responding post here for 4 times. Not sure why, I did not use any medicine name or other acronyms… strange.
Marcia
“Nah. Kids love merry-go-rounds. They love rides. It’s the same thing. “
Compared to Rollercoaster or skiing down from a high slope, merry-go-rounds is like a rocking chair; of course, kids and grownups of all ages love it.
“It’s not so much sex as it is feeling something deeply. It’s a heightened world.“
“Feeling something deeply takes place when/if one (me) has some emotional or mental connection/attachment to a sexual partner. With one-nighters? You know what it felt like and what it meant — I reiterate: I HATE it after trying a few times during the app dating time! 🤮
“It definitely distracts. “
Only distracts❓😉 Tell me how you would feel after regularly crossing the finishing line or surfing high waves from 1-2 dozen times in less than an hour….
[“How a friend could bring out your “devil side”?”] “Be a bit of a risk-tasker. Have a wild side. “
I thought your friends never cross threshold to “LO file”, how are you taking “risks” wildly with a friend? (I assume you mean male friend.)
“More like sedating elixirs … they’re called middle age! “
Nah. If you know how to meditate/maneuver your internal energy/Qi, middle age is not a barrier at all, trust me on this….
“What miniseries do you recommend?”
People’s tastes in movies/books vary a great deal based on one’s interests or personality, I would not boldly recommend any but to say I (re)watched classical works of Dickens (almost all of his work), Austen (all), G. Eliot, Tolstoy, Gaskell (North and South), Merlin, Sherlock Holmes (w/ Jeremy Brett and Camberbatch), Vanity Fair (1998), Claudius, Six Wives of Henry VIII, Downton Abbey (not BBC?), “Dostoevsky” (Russian, 8 parts), “Idiot” (Russian, 4 parts)…
[The title of the series does not sound interesting to me, sorry I sound so judgmental without even peeking at it.”] “You do sound judgmental. “
Yes, I’m very opinionated about this topic. You seemed to enjoy talking about sex (soon or later, your topics would circle back to it) when I’ve been uncomfortable or dreadful talking about it, even privately let alone publicly, (due to my upbringing with the double societal/cultural sword — the tradition and communism, morally attacking or silencing it since the dawn of the time to this day…
Yet, when I tried to talk about it through spiritual and universal biology/energy lens, my view would be argued to be boring or insufficient by a bunch of you without having experienced what it is like to you personally…. So I think it’s better for us to rest on this topic. 🤐
The media talks about it like a hobby or a sport, I consider it a very private and intimate subject, shared between partners and lovers. You can claim that I’m dull-minded, tradition enslaved, or sexually agoraphobic, but I don’t want to be reformed or rebellious in this arena.
“Read up on it. It’s very good. “
I watched the preview last night and read one good and one so-so reviews, it’s still not my cup of tea. I told you before I dislike(d) kinky stuff, even if I get cancer (almost twice) and will die soon. No moral judgment here, I understand Molly’s motives to rashly “discover” her sex self, especially she never had orgasm before, but does one need to “hit” 200 naked male/stranger bodies (based on the true story) to discover one’s feminine, sexual Self?
Nonetheless, I do think every woman should somehow explore and discover her own sexuality soon or later through mentally/emotionally involved sexual connection; to me it’s never a pure physical/instinctive animalistic act….
In your opinion, what’s the difference between Molly’s self-discovery journey from that of Samantha in “Sex and City” with her three female buddy’s cheering up? (Not a rhetorical question)
“And he allowed you to have that closure. He was gracious in listening and it sounds like you had a good meeting. Often, we don’t get such official closure with someone. “
You spoke about ET more positively than myself. 😃 If one could have tolerated my monologue/ramblings for years and kept making up after my LCs and NCs, he could graciously handle such a disclosure — validating his Sensor’s needs/wants!
I got lucky that my intuition for his glimmers/personaliy was not too far off the track… I’m very glad that from the first to the last encounter, we never lost composure in public or in front of each other privately…. Still after this LE, I’ve developed more negative attitudes towards amour Sensors or validation seekers… I couldn’t help it, sorry!
“I’ve only had it with one ex-LO. After that meeting, I walked away thinking: I am finally done with this! Freedom! “
Did you feel burdened /“tied” down? By what?
“I’d say “adore” is more an implication of love (doesn’t have to be romantic) and “admire” is more about someone’s qualities or accomplishments.”
Well, fresh out of Glimmer/ LE illusions, our LOs all wore halos, so the adoration was there initially, but it’s inauthentic one. Admiration does not necessarily lead to adoration which involves evolving emotions… our tastes of people also evolve as we mature and age…
”I’d say “admire” is a strong word. But a person doesn’t have to be a Nobel Prize winner for me to admire them. I have a friend who is very good at talking to people. Can walk into a room full of 50 strangers and feel perfectly comfortable. I admire that. “
I totally agree. Admiration is for specific qualities and challenging accomplishments.
“How do you know it’s less intense? “
By logical deduction.
1. Based on LwL, a lot of partnered limerents feel confused/guilty about emotional “straying/betrayal” to their SO, whether or not having acted on their LE “affections”.
2. They may totally lose their head temporarily in front of LO, in interaction or from distance, but what to eat/do at the end of day at home, where to go with SO for the weekend, etc is always on the plate. That cell may just legitimately ring anytime.
3. It’s very hard to have a chuck of free time or undivided focus, without SO’s loving “distraction”, to daydream/reverie about LO.
4. What would they say to SO if the latter detects/discovery their LE… such concern is always on the back burner if not the front of their mind…
Then, we know what happens in their head when they’re with their SO, loving or otherwise… Has anyone compiled a list here❓😀
On the other hand, single limerents do not have so many legitimate, demanding distractions, thus their LE is more intense and usually last longer: 10, 8, or 25 years for one LO….
“Did you go to his show? I can’t remember when it was. “
You still remember it 😀! It’s on Oct. 5th evening.
[“Anyone, good enough, who was once in my mind and no longer is, would be considered a loss to me. After all, how many people we could have met and “made stories” with during our short life?”’
“But that’s exactly what they were: stories. “
I NEED to change a word in my previous post — “made personal history with in our short life”. The word “stories” may make one to think it’s fictional, but it’s NOT. Anyone’s realistic life is made with many stories, small or short, big or long, whether they are told orally or written down from self or others’ perspectives. Any physical, logistical, emotional, mental and spiritual experiences all count! What existed in one’s head, heart and spirit is NOT less real than external events, so called “reality”…
“I don’t know how well I even knew my LOs. With the exception of one who became a boyfriend. And … uh … it would have been better if he’d remained a mystery. “
Knowing him well/more or not, it’s still your realistic story, a part of your personal journey, which holds its own value, maybe not in quality or quantity of what you desired or wished. Sometime it sounds to me that you (others here as well) would only consider a fruited/materialized experience real and worthy, “failed”/passed ones or mysterious ones are “unreal” & unimportant, or the life lived in head/heart illusional (what about one’s god?) … I think such a view is over practical or logical… and even narrow-minded/spiritual. (I think we’ve discussed about and disagreed on this).
[“…I felt sad and strange afterwards, he was already remarried by then….”] “Did you still have some limerent feelings for him? “
Not at all. I told you that my LE for him lost its pinnacle in the third day I moved in with him. A month after marriage (getting the paper without the wedding yet), I discovered his 4 flings during the engagement. But I think late I hurt his heart by insisting on a divorce regardless what we had already built and could not change my mind when he tried to reconcile/come back three years after the amicable divorce. I saw a lot of his sad tears and felt really guilty and “cruel”…
I don’t know why with me, once LE was gone, it was gone for the next life… I could be very compassionate and genuinely friendly or even fwb with xLOs, caring them as a normal human being with agape, as if LE had never occurred between us. Nonetheless, they’re a part of my personal history, (in)directly shaped/influenced whoever I am today….
“I just don’t see them as ever having been a big part of my life. With one exception, they weren’t. So how they’re doing is irrelevant to me now. “
But it’s relevant to them! Do you always care about others through your own lens (in relating to you), not their own ⁉️ (you don’t think it’s a bit self-centered). Nonetheless, they are still a part of one’s personal history, no matter how brief. If they have caused colossal emotional or mental or a bit of realistic changes in our three-dimensional life, they’re a big part of our life as a whole! We can’t just focus life only on the spot under our nose… how narrow-lens it would be….
Each of us has a much bigger canvas already painted with our past experiences, one can’t erase them; otherwise, one becomes inauthentic or ungrateful to life itself…. Human beings are not any other types of mammals who only live for the moment… our personal history forms a part of our identity, whatever colors they were…. We become artists of our own life, when/if we can paint it with vivid colors (or masterfully verbalize it) for all its joys and pains… Without such sensitivity, sensibility and mental skills, one truly becomes dull….
”I just found out a new acquaintance met her husband online. I’ve decided that … what happens, happens. “
Please keep in mind that you are NOT your acquaintance, not a girl next door, not a “screw” in a professional machine, you’re One and Only Marcia! What you need/want will be always different in someways from others. Please no comparison with another, but I sincerely wish you a success in the modern dating market!
Everyone is unique and would feel/think differently in a similar situation. There is no such a thing called, “It’s universally acknowledged…” as Austen exclaimed, maybe in her era but not ours 🙂
Snow,
“Compared to Rollercoaster or skiing down from a high slope, merry-go-rounds is like a rocking chair; of course, kids and grownups of all ages love it.”
Yes, but there are plenty of people who like rollercoasters and skiing, etc. You make it sound like it’s some kind of unusual or dysfunctional interest. It’s not. There’s a reason theme parks are so profitable.
“With one-nighters? You know what it felt like and what it meant — I reiterate: I HATE it after trying a few times during the app dating time! 🤮”
With that young guy I hooked up with, I couldn’t care less if I ever saw him again. But for some reason, the thing with LO lite affected me. Probably has a lot more to do with me than with him.
“Only distracts❓”
Well, it distracts you from the rest of your life. 🙂
“😉 Tell me how you would feel after regularly crossing the finishing line or surfing high waves from 1-2 dozen times in less than an hour….”
Is that a metaphor? 🙂
“I thought your friends never cross threshold to “LO file”, how are you taking “risks” wildly with a friend? (I assume you mean male friend.)”
Not necessarily. I meant a “fun” friend. Platonic. But someone with a sense of adventure. You don’t often find those people in middle age, but if i did, it would fulfill some of the part of me that … well, LO-lite did.
“People’s tastes in movies/books vary a great deal based on one’s interests or personality, I would not boldly recommend any but to say I (re)watched classical works of Dickens (almost all of his work), Austen (all), G. Eliot, Tolstoy, Gaskell (North and South), Merlin, Sherlock Holmes (w/ Jeremy Brett and Camberbatch), Vanity Fair (1998), Claudius, Six Wives of Henry VIII, Downton Abbey (not BBC?), “Dostoevsky” (Russian, 8 parts), “Idiot” (Russian, 4 parts)…”
Which Dostoevsky? I’ve read two of his books but haven’t seen any of the movie versions.
“Yes, I’m very opinionated about this topic. You seemed to enjoy talking about sex ”
Well, the show is about sex but it’s more than that. She’s on some kind of personal journey before she passes away. Personally, I found the actual sex in it not particularly sexy. The show is very well-written and well acted.
“No moral judgment here, I understand Molly’s motives to rashly “discover” her sex self, especially she never had orgasm before, but does one need to “hit” 200 naked male/stranger bodies (based on the true story) to discover one’s feminine, sexual Self?”
As I wrote above, the actual “sex” in the show wasn’t sexy to me. Walking around with a whip and degrading someone or peeing on someone. Does nothing for me. But … her interaction with the other characters (not just the men but her best friend). Her coming into her own. It’s a good show. Her sexual taste isn’t “traditional.” So the show tackles that idea as well. Which I think is interesting.
“In your opinion, what’s the difference between Molly’s self-discovery journey from that of Samantha in “Sex and City” with her three female buddy’s cheering up? (Not a rhetorical question)”
I never really watched a lot of Sex in the City. I’ve seen maybe 2 or 3 episodes all the way through. I’ve watched a handful of short clips. Mostly with Baryshnikov. Because he’s so sexy in the show. But I couldn’t really relate to the female characters.
“You spoke about ET more positively than myself. 😃 If one could have tolerated my monologue/ramblings for years and kept making up after my LCs and NCs, he could graciously handle such a disclosure — validating his Sensor’s needs/wants!”
Well, that’s probably true. Your disclosure was validating for him. Still, you were able to get some closure, which is difficult to do in most LEs.
“Still after this LE, I’ve developed more negative attitudes towards amour Sensors or validation seekers… I couldn’t help it, sorry!”
I hear you. You have to wonder with the validation seekers: HOW MUCH validation is enough?
“Did you feel burdened /“tied” down? By what?”
Yes. Burdened by thinking about him. Not able to get over him.
“Well, fresh out of Glimmer/ LE illusions, our LOs all wore halos, so the adoration was there initially, but it’s inauthentic one. Admiration does not necessarily lead to adoration which involves evolving emotions”
I don’t know if I’d say I “adored” my LOs. Adoration implies love, which to me implies knowing someone. I didn’t know most of my LOs that well. I was fixated on them. Obsessed with them. Loved them? Idk.
“Then, we know what happens in their head when they’re with their SO, loving or otherwise… Has anyone compiled a list here❓😀”
I don’t believe they have. No. 🙂 That’s a question you’d have to ask the partnered limerents. Were they always thinking of their LOs? Was the LO always on their mind (even if they were with their SO and/or other people)? Because that’s how it is for me when I’m at the height of the limerence crazy.
“You still remember it 😀! It’s on Oct. 5th evening.”
You’ll have to post about how it was.
” What existed in one’s head, heart and spirit is NOT less real than external events, so called “reality”…”
I would argue that this isn’t true. External events, by their very nature of being external, of coming to fruition, of coming into the 3-D world, have more weight.
” Sometime it sounds to me that you (others here as well) would only consider a fruited/materialized experience real and worthy, “failed”/passed ones or mysterious ones are “unreal” & unimportant, or the life lived in head/heart illusional (what about one’s god?)”
That’s how I would see it. It’s not that the unmaterialized ones didn’t affect me. At the time, they very much did. But, yes, they certainly felt like a waste of time once I got distance from the situation and perspective on them. I don’t want to my life inside my head.
“But it’s relevant to them! Do you always care about others through your own lens (in relating to you), not their own ⁉️ ”
They’re not part of my life. They never really were. You can’t expect someone to care if they’re not a part of your life. I don’t wish them any harm, but they weren’t people I was ever that close with.
“(you don’t think it’s a bit self-centered).”
No. I think it’s being realistic. The last big LO was some guy I worked with who I talked to, on average, about 5 or 10 minutes a day. That’s the reality of it. We never so much as texted each other outside of work.
” Nonetheless, they are still a part of one’s personal history, no matter how brief. If they have caused colossal emotional or mental or a bit of realistic changes in our three-dimensional life, they’re a big part of our life as a whole! ”
Maybe a part of my personal history from which, hopefully, I’m growing and learning. But the LOs themselves, as people, as individuals … no. With the exception of the one who became a boyfriend, they did not have significant roles in my life. I mean, one I dated. But we only dated for about 3 months. It was not some big love affair. And of course there’s another argument … how big can it be some big love affair if the other person doesn’t feel the same way?
“Please keep in mind that you are NOT your acquaintance, not a girl next door, not a “screw” in a professional machine, you’re One and Only Marcia! ”
Huh? I’m just saying it IS possible for something good to come out of online dating.
@Marcia,
Oh, ok, thanks for explaining. Yes, you’re right. But if I speak for anyone else, limerents included, I’m sure I’ll get chided, so I just speak for myself these days 😆
I became the kind of limerent who so desperately wanted to get out of limerence that I longed for the closure of the episode because then it meant getting out of the pain. I prefer peace and boredom to ecstasy that always ends in pain.
💙
LN,
“But if I speak for anyone else, limerents included, I’m sure I’ll get chided, so I just speak for myself these days 😆”
Gothca. 🙂 I would include myself in “most limerents.” I’ve certainly employed all kinds of mental gymnastics to keep LEs going.
“I prefer peace and boredom to ecstasy that always ends in pain.”
Do you think that’s how it always is? Are those our only choices? Peaceful but bored or ecstatic but eventually tortured?
Ok. I still haven’t texted that guy. I’ve become one of those flim flammers I complained about.
@Marcia,
I only ever really talk about my LEs that happened while married (and I only learned about limerence half-way out of the second one/last one) because they were so exciting and then painful. They both had almost the exact same feelings. Seven years apart. And with those feelings, I was tortured and conflicted because I didn’t want to have these feelings/thoughts of other men while married….
Limerence is going to end. Even if it’s 25 years in Sammy’s case! For me, it lasts 18 months to 2 years from start to finish. Now that I know what it is, I know what it does to my body, psyche, everything. And for me, it’s either all-intrusive ecstasy or all-intrusive torture. I’ve been on that ride twice now. And both of them started by a man either befriending me and falling in love with me (as the first one said) or massively flirting with me, but saying he’s a “mess” when I actually considered dropping my huband for him (second one).
So, at least for me, unless the limerence involves actually mutually falling in love with someone and marrying them, I don’t want it. Too painful.
💙
Adam…
“Then she would make sure I ate lunch everyday. When I worked in the warehouse (this was in the middle of summer) she would make sure I stay hydrated in the heat. She would scold me about my smoking because I have a heart condition. At least now if I ever get to see her again I can tell her I quit smoking thanks to her getting on me about it.
I don’t know about other men, but that “mothering” stuff makes me weak in the knees. I am a pretty self sufficient person but it was nice knowing a woman was looking out for me.”
THIS …. when she would ask me how I was, or indicate caring… or worst of all… cook for me!! OMG
“Lots and lots of mistakes that I ignored my feelings about because they made me feel good. Thankfully, for me, there was never any contact outside of work. Or you could say, unfortunately, as contact outside of work would have been a red flag for me to consider what I am doing more intellectually. But because I kept it strictly at work I could justify it to myself.”
also this as the expression goes “separation of Church and State”
“I didn’t always tell or have ever told my wife some things we talked about. I confided in my wife about my limerence when I found this community as my wife was already suspicious of us when I would talk about my work day with her. But, yeah, I knew there were somethings that best be left unsaid.”
I quickly learned that my Wife could “tolerate” the Walks as part of my addiction …. but had NO interest in hearing about what went on … esp when she found out we often stopped to eat and have lunch together ( ” breaking bread ” is a powerful thing )
“cook for me!!”
We got lunch at a (state) local burger chain one day for lunch. I decided to try a new burger I had never had before. She got back with lunch and we started to eat. I took a bite of my burger and my disgust must have showed on my face. “Adam is there something wrong with your burger? Is it not cooked? Here let me see.” I handed her my burger and she opens it up. “Oh God it has mayo on it. I know how much you hate mayo.” She then scraped off the mayo that she could and then got in the fridge at work and added mustard to it to mask the rest of the mayo in the bun. I though OMG this woman is amazing. She remembered me telling her I don’t like mayo. This woman is an angel.
My point? My wife would have know to ask first hand before the sandwich was even made to tell them not to put mayo on it. Limerence has a way of making us forget the people that know us more than anyone else for a chance to elevate LO. Limerence aside it was very sweet of her to do what she did and remember that I did hate mayo. But maybe she’s just a good listener. And a kind person to do what she did. Would I have felt any different if it had been any other person that would have done the same as LO? Probably. But in my mind, at the time, no else would have cared enough to do that for me than LO.
Adam,
That mayo example is a nice illustration of just how 1.rare and 2. powerful it is when someone notices or acts on those little things we’ve said – gives us that extra level of attention and care.
While I have no doubt you’re right that your wife knows all that best about you (and I’d say the same about my SO), the other fact is that not many other people come along in life who seem to notice and pay attention that much. So when one does, it has an impact.
I don’t know (like you) if that’s because they’re just exceptional listeners, or whether there is a ‘something else’ dimension involved, or whether we just notice it more when they’re an LO because we’re in the altered state and chemically wired to notice it.
Or put another way, it is sometimes hard to figure out whether these people ‘become LO’ because of those qualities in them, or whether they ‘become LO’ for some other reason and we then go looking for every little shred of those qualities, at the expense of all else. Or a bit of both! I think it’s only as we start to untangle from the LE mess that we can even hope to know.
LAR, Adam,
“Or put another way, it is sometimes hard to figure out whether these people ‘become LO’ because of those qualities in them, or whether they ‘become LO’ for some other reason and we then go looking for every little shred of those qualities, at the expense of all else. Or a bit of both!”
In my current state of mind (I’d say as much out of limerence as I can be) , I think it’s a bit of both, in hindsight. LOs are people who care about us and have some special qualities that speak to us specifically, but not as astonishingly unique and magical as limerence makes us believe.
The gloss of our selfish limerence wiped away, they are still humans with good and bad traits, and actually not very much of their overall behavior and being is aimed specifically at us – that’s an important fact that we forget when limerent.
Still, there might be a real connection. Underneath limerence, there’s a real relationship to a person. It’s hard to distinguish between those two, limerence and real relationship, as has been my problem in the last LE.
Mila,
“Underneath limerence, there’s a real relationship to a person. It’s hard to distinguish between those two, limerence and real relationship, as has been my problem in the last LE.”
Wholeheartedly agree with all of that, at least in the cases of both our last LEs.
And it is also a huge challenge to unscramble what is / was the ‘real’ relationship from what is / was the limerent relationship, when the brain has conflated the two things for years.
Hi LaR,
it’s so interesting, we seem on a similar trajectory again, I also remember the feeling of grieving for a loss that you mention in your post to Kat.
“How are you feeling about xLO now?”
You asked:)sorry to go on a bit.
As you rightly say, I was stuck in a negative view of LO alternating with short bouts of grieving or recognizing his good sides again for a very long time.
It’s very recent that I even thought about writing a post stating that I lost my game and goal(to come out of limerence and still keep that friendship intact.)
I was tired of being resentful every time he wrote something I didn’t like, basically only registering if he showed his bad sides without counting the good ones, out of habit somehow, maybe neuronal pathways that I built during fighting limerence that were almost as strong
as the former limerent pathways.
We had contact but I found something negative about his behavior or language or whatever almost every single time, and that irked me and I felt unfair and tired, but seemingly I couldn’t switch out of it.
I finally thought it best to give up, just keep distance and acknowledge that it is my fault alone that I can’t shed this negative view, just finally acknowledge that it was beyond me to see him in a neutral way again and that my limerence destroyed the possibility of keeping this friendship.
Just finally let go of him and move on.
As a consequence contact died down quite a bit. At some point I noticed that he was extremely negative himself. That was actually one thing that got on my nerves, his negative way when he feels bad, and he seems to feel bad all the time in the last year. I mean , he has a lot of good things in his life, but I only hear him complaining. But that’s also not completely fair of me-
He has ongoing physical issues and he sounded very depressed. That’s where I couldn’t be silent,in view of our long friendship etc I couldn’t leave that unanswered or not care about it. Basic decency. I tried to comfort etc, but his reaction was terse, and to my second attempt to be nice/help, he didn’t reply at all. At first I decided that he wanted to be let in peace, probably especially by me (understandable after our talks back in the last year), and that’s where I thought, now it’s finally time to acknowledge the end. Just leave it at that.
But then I realized that I couldn’t just let it go like that, leave him at a bad time when he was down. I mean he was my friend for a very long time, I realized I still care that he feels down.
So I called him, after he didn’t answer I called him again, and we had a good phone call. Nothing very important spoken, but back to more warmth.
Since then, I finally feel I made it! Suddenly I got it back, my old view of him. I still see his bad, conservative, uncommunicative and a bit selfish ways, but suddenly they lost their significance for my own feeling, if that makes sense. I can look at him in a more detached way again, I can like him and at the same time not care enough to be irked by his lack of warmth or lack of ability to say the right things . It feels much like before the limerence.
It’s a bit early to say that this is it, that this will endure, but it’s the first time I bounced back to a good feeling without any hint of liking him too much.
Bewitched and Imho might remember my snail house analogy- it seems I had to turn ever narrowing circles of resentment and seemingly coming to the same point again and again, for such a long time that I couldn’t believe in the snail house any more, but then maybe finally reached the exit to freedom.
I hope so very much.
I’m not sure if it was only a question of time. Maybe! In any case, much time was needed. And I had the privilege that he didn’t go anywhere, meaning I was dithering but he stayed in the same place, I could take my time without him deciding that he’d had enough of my up and downs and criticism and whatnot. That’s the advantage of his somewhat inflexible but loyal nature.
So I don’t have a really good advice about unsticking that stage of negativity. I have beaten the walls of that stage so often. Just give yourself time, maybe in your case it’s even less time because you have more contact?
Maybe just let it roll, not giving in too much to urges of ending it all, drawing a line etc (if you have them at all). I think, for me, time played a big role, reality crept in very slowly.
I’ll think about it more since this development is relatively new, maybe I’ll write in a few weeks that I’m back to resentment or whatever, or have new insights into how the new equanimity happened…
If I can make it, you can too, LaR! (Let’s just first see in the next time if I really made it..)
Adding that it could be that this friendship is still dying down, this time from his side, his recent reactions/contact were much less, but that would also be ok for me now.
Mila,
“sorry to go on a bit”.
Not a problem – I had a coffee ready beforehand 🙂
They sound like positive developments although it is a shame he is feeling so down.
“maybe neuronal pathways that I built during fighting limerence that were almost as strong as the former limerent pathways”
We have to acknowledge that it is quite a fight to build those ‘new’ pathways – ones that don’t associate LO with reward – so it isn’t surprising that they hang around and override more positive ones.
“I couldn’t leave that unanswered or not care about it. Basic decency.”
I think it was good of you – and says a lot for the real friendship that is there if only everything associated with the d***ed limerence can be moved out of the way – that you persisted in trying to contact him when you knew he was down, and eventually had a pleasant but non-triggering interaction.
“It’s a bit early to say that this is it, that this will endure, but it’s the first time I bounced back to a good feeling without any hint of liking him too much… maybe finally reached the exit to freedom.
I hope so very much.”
I hope that for you too. You certainly haven’t given in easily on this one!
“Just give yourself time, maybe in your case it’s even less time because you have more contact?”
Things are broadly OK. Interactions between us are pleasant, don’t seem false or forced, but are ‘cooled down’. I’ve always sensed (I might be wrong – I might just be telling myself stories I want to hear) that her and are were broadly on the same page about things. For example, I think we both knew we’d got too ‘friendly’, that it needed to cool off, and were both pretty committed to trying to get to that point. In these ways it was always going to be a bit of a different journey for me as for you because – imagined or not – I felt I kind of had LO’s buy-in to changes that needed to happen and reasons why.
What I’m left with now is interesting. She still seems to want to lean on me in certain ways that I’m now less willing to be leant on for. I have more of myself back to give to SO and other people and things in my life, which I don’t really want to give up again.
If anything, I want to continue gradually distancing a bit more. That would mean that there isn’t some firecracker event where one of us leaves work or if, say, she partners up. In the future, I’d want those things not to create the big sudden change (for either or both people) that others on here have reported – more just be a continuation of how the friendship evolves. I’m not in the market for making any sudden decisions to ‘end’ anything, but I guess I’m more open to the fact that one outcome, and maybe not a terrible one, is that it might drift slowly. There is still a bit of sadness attached to that. I bet you’re much the same as me here – I miss the ‘highs’ of limerence, but I also know now that they are not worth the lows, so are not worth re-igniting.
Hi LaR,
The difference betweeen us is also that, once in the stage where his negative sides got in sight, I got much more frustrated in LOs friendship and general ways than you, as far as that I disclosed these frustrations to him. One might say that was futile, but now I think it was the only way for me to stay in this friendship. I was as honest as I could be without disclosing limerence, and I think that was a good thing for our friendship, in the very end.
Your story doesn’t need this kind of drama since there isn’t this level of difference between your ways of being a friend, I think.
Your LO being a much more socially adept and understanding person than mine, you might be right that she sensed a lot and acted accordingly, but I would be wary to believe she’s on the completely same page as you.
There was a lot going on with you and a development inside you that most probably she hasn’t experienced in the same way. You gave a lot of attention to her when limerent. Now that you suffered a lot (maybe unbeknownst to her) and overcame limerence, you feel that it was unbalanced and too much and you want to right the balance and withdraw attention. For her, who doesn’t have an SO and has a history of bad experiences with men (if I remember it right)this withdrawal might hit differently than it was meant.
I still think you are right in getting the balance back, I just wonder if she will really interpret it in the way you think she will. She cannot really know what goes on inside you, as much as we limerents think that we are specially connected to LOs.
But maybe I project too much here, especially as she is a much more proactive person than my friend. With us, it was mostly me who created the warmth and intimacy , I made him used to this much attention, and then I withdraw it or got cool and angry. Since he was more or less the same person with the same behavior the whole time, this was confusing and painful, I guess (although my pain was surely not less than his).
You remember” the little prince” and the fox, where the fox says that we are responsible for the things we tamed? That’s what vexed me: that I made this neurodivergent guy rely on too much attention from my side and then withdrew it. Am I responsible for him, is it my duty to keep the attention flowing, once I made him depend on it?
But then, it’s not really like that. The truth is also, that he is an adult and he enjoyed more warmth than he gave back, and that ultimately it is my right to give what I want to give, and to stop giving if I cannot find things to give any more. And he can adjust and accept, it’s not asked too much. He has got a wife and hopefully other friends to turn to, and I’m still there for him, just not on the same heightened level.
(Also,by the way, I think in his texts he sounded much more depressed and down than the situation really is, as I noticed on the phone. I think he wanted a tiny bit that I worried.)
I don’t think I could ignite limerence for him again now. I really think I might be done with limerence. Some big change is happening within me, it has to do with age and shifting of priorities. Not sure , of course.
I’m very glad that you are doing well and want to give more attention to SO but still manage to maintain friendly contact with LO. It’s not a small feat!
Mila,
“I think in his texts he sounded much more depressed and down than the situation really is, as I noticed on the phone.”
You know what, I nearly asked you, before you said that, if you thought that could be the case – that on some level the sounding down was a cry for attention, even if not done in a calculated way. But I didn’t want to plant that idea in your mind if it wasn’t there already. You seem to have reached a better place and it is far better if you try and stay there than wonder too much!
“as far as that I disclosed these frustrations to him.”
So with me it’s different to you in that I didn’t disclose frustrations with her, but we had more of a ‘review of the situation’ (possibly disclosure-lite although only focusing on the friendship) that started to trigger it tailing off.
“this withdrawal might hit differently than it was meant.”
I’m conscious of that and of the factors you mentioned, which is why I said I might be telling myself stories. Another part of it for me is I don’t want to be “yet another one of those men” where she ends up feeling I’ve future-faked her or artificially withdrawn a friendship when there is, to her eyes, no good reason to do that. That’s why I have tried to lower amount and intensity of contact very very gradually.
Why I think she might be on a similar page is that increasingly she has ‘gone with that’, not tried too much to pull me back in. I think it’s going about as well as I can hope for in the circumstances. It certainly feels a relief not to be spinning in the same loops anymore.
Hi LaR,
„You seem to have reached a better place and it is far better if you try and stay there than wonder too much!“
Well, I‘ll aim that right back at you:)
In the end, as long as she seems fine and accepting your changes, there’s no use wondering about her exact state of mind and understanding, so my warnings were probably overcautious.
My friend has gone quiet again, and I don’t mind at all. I think our friendship runs smoother if there’s less contact.
So, it sounds as if we are very much out of the woods, no?
As I said, I feel that my whole view of life is changing, so I feel that it might well be that this was my very last LE.
Do you think there’s a possibility of rekindling your LE under certain circumstances, or a possibility of a new LE in the future?
And, in your current state of mind, how would you react if she found a partner now? Would it jolt you a bit or are you as far out of the woods as that you would just be happy for her?
Just curious.
I think I wouldn’t mind now, for example, if XLO would find a new „special“ friend in his new town, if I would cease to be that one important person besides his SO. Even when not really limerent any more, for a while that would have hurt a bit, but now I genuinely think I wouldn’t mind much.
But that’s because he moved away, of course it would be different in your case.
LaR
“the other fact is that not many other people come along in life who seem to notice and pay attention that much. So when one does, it has an impact.”
I would still standby that she was one of the most unique women I have met, or human in general, even after limerence. That kind of thought and consideration came so naturally to her. It was me that let that get misinterpreted as something else. I agree with Miss Mila that it is probably a bit of both mixed together. As she was one of the kindest souls I have met. I think if she wasn’t the person she is, limerence would never have happened. But it did. Reminds me of a song lyric “and were ever what you seemed, or was I a fool who fell in love with his own dream”.
Adam, Mila
@Adam
“and were ever what you seemed, or was I a fool who fell in love with his own dream”.
I think – from how you tell it – that the qualities you describe in her were very real ones. A person can’t fake that, for that length of time. Many limerents (I include myself) multiply the significance of everything by 100, but the thing is still there in some way in the first place. Even though our tendency to fall limerent comes from internal reasons, there is also a strong reason for why we land on that person as LO.
The bit I find interesting now I’m coming out of my LE is how I can still see her positive qualities, but noticeably also more her negative qualities. It’s like I always knew those more difficult sides were there – I remember observing them now in the many years before it became an LE. But while it was an LE, I was just blind to them.
@Mila
Going back you wrote quite a lot about this topic … I am in that stage now where I’m having to reason with myself a lot. To think “she’s just a person with positives and negatives” and to try not to feel resentful towards her when the negative sides show out. To remember that I projected the kind of ‘goddess’ status, she didn’t ask for it or pretend to be it. It feels very much like stages you reported getting stuck in for a long while.
How are you feeling about xLO now? Any tips for unsticking the above stage? I’m not doing too badly with it, but I wish it was a little smoother.
LaR
” Many limerents (I include myself) multiply the significance of everything by 100, but the thing is still there in some way in the first place.”
I guess that’s why that lyric resonates so much with me. The “my own dream” was the limerence multiplying her already good qualities. I got so enamored with a woman being so thoughtful and caring that I didn’t see that she was that way with everyone else. Especially her daughter.
“But while it was an LE, I was just blind to them.”
Haha totally get that now. I used to get so angry at any criticism pointed at her no matter how accurate or constructive it was. I was always in defense mode with her. I guess if she were still here and I was still able to get out of limerence, like you I might be able to see her less than good qualities. Something all of us have.
As an aside; I don’t know how much you read into MBTI but I saw a pin on pinterest “What each MBTI type does when they have a crush” and clicked on it. The ISFJ was word for word accurate. Probably can describe me in limerence better than I even can myself.
“ISFJs proceed cautiously before approaching a romantic crush. They are normally self sufficient and independent individuals but when they fall into the grip of lust of extreme infatuation with someone else they may lose touch with their sense of inner stability. In an attempt to regain a sense of control over their situation, they may become obsessed with knowing as much about the other person as possible. They’ll gather all sorts of tiny details as a means of assuaging their own anxieties. ISFJs may lose their senses and focus all their attention on that person at the expense to their own needs and priorities.”
Adam,
“I used to get so angry at any criticism pointed at her no matter how accurate or constructive it was. I was always in defense mode with her.”
Me too. Like we want to protect them, and believe there is nothing possibly bad about them??
“like you I might be able to see her less than good qualities”
I don’t know if for you it would be more of a curse or a blessing if you got to see those. Sometimes I’ve thought it would be better not to see them, but it would not have been possible to start clambering out of the LE if I hadn’t seen them.
“I don’t know how much you read into MBTI but I saw a pin on pinterest “What each MBTI type does when they have a crush” and clicked on it”
I really like the MBTI stuff and would like to look up a couple of other personality types on that!! Please share the link to that page if you can. My SO is an ISFJ, by the way – I think it’s quite a rare personality type.
This is the site from where I posted that bit. It’s a pretty good site, as far as being accurate. But I usually prefer the site in the second link. But they are both, at least, entertaining to read if not pretty on point. At least in their descriptions of ISFJ’s.
https://astroligion.com/mbti-type-crush-love-valentine/
https://www.psychologyjunkie.com/what-it-means-to-be-an-isfj-personality-type/
Oh hey, decades ago I took one of those tests and it said I was ISFJ. 🙂 Hmm….I guess we must be limerence-prone?
Adam,
Those links you posted … a couple of hours down the rabbit hole we go!
Want to go a bit further down it?
https://www.truity.com/blog/page/personality-type-interactions-compatibility
Enjoy!
From that site’s test I got INFJ. I can’t say I agree or disagree. I’d have to read more up on recent INFJ info to get an idea if it’s accurate or not. I’ve been typed INFJ before on tests in past years and it just didn’t feel it was me. ISFJ is more me than anything.
Adam,
This is too easy!
https://youtube.com/shorts/EFVx866sejA?feature=shared – “Undercover Brother”
To Adam:
I really enjoyed reading this story. I am puzzled at myself, though. My LO has never done anything thoughtful like the mayo thing, and I can’t imagine what is wrong with me.
If my LO was as kindly as yours was, I don’t think I could ever break free.
L.E.
I always laugh at the way Smart Brother handles the sandwich like it’s a lethal weapon. “Have a bite of this uh …. sandwich.” As he carefully places it on the table. 🙂
Great movie. I haven’t watched in a long time. There’s also the scene at the restaurant with Denise Richards where she wants him to take a bite of her sandwich with all that extra mayo. The sound guy should get an Oscar for how realistically disgusting he made it sound.
Miss Norma
When I first found this place, one of the tactics for getting out of limerence can be demoralizing. Because of the fact that she was such a kind and caring person, I knew that would never work for me. You could tell from the relationship between herself and her daughter that she was a caring person. I’m sure they have their disagreements and fights at home, but from their interactions I saw, she was a very loving mother and she was a daughter that appreciated her mother.
And as I mentioned to New To Limerence above, that “mothering” stuff makes me weak in the knees. Even when my wife does it for me. Her being the persons she was, was one of the things that had my brain hanging onto to limerence for so long. I just couldn’t fathom that she did anything wrong, and it was all on me for misinterpreting her kindness. It’s easily one of the most attractive qualities about a woman, for me.
To Adam:
I agree with what you say about caring and thoughtfulness.
Which brings me back to WTF is wrong with me?
LO is not thoughtful. He was amazed that I remembered his dog’s birthday, because he doesn’t even know or care when MY birthday is.
Miss Norma
My guess, and that’s all I can really do, is that there is still something about him that sparked the limerence. There is something decent, or appealing or desirable about him to you. It’s just that his bad qualities outshine his good ones.
In my case, before I met my wife, I let a woman use me, gobbled up bread crumbs, led me on, and patronize me, because there was something about her that was so appealing. Maybe I was just lonely then, and the company of any woman, no matter how she treated me was better than being alone. When she wanted to be sweet and nice she really was. Maybe that is what I was hanging on to hoping she’d change. But she never did. And when she had used me enough she walked away and I was left alone again. I’ve mentioned her before as my possible first limerence. But I didn’t know what that was then.
FWIW, Adam,
When I was a kid, my mother picked me up for a visitation. We stopped at Burger King and she bought me a Whopper. I was brought up on McDonald’s burgers with mustard, ketchup, pickles, and onions. A Whopper had mayo, lettuce and tomato. I refused to eat it.
My mother had to go back and get me a regular hamburger.
It’s a good question!
I think I just tried to rationalise it all as a good friend, as well as a colleague, that I’ve always had a crush on.
She has been largely single throughout (incredibly fussy, Mr Right or no-one). This enabled my devil brain to build daydreams even though I love my wife and would never disrupt my family.
I’m grateful it never became an affair. I accept it could have done.
So the recent emotional crash is largely because of the hard wiring over such a long period – the attention and validation – which then entirely evaporated in pretty much an instant.
Its a new normal that right now feels like grief given how sudden and comprehensive the change has been.
But yeah, I’m reaping what I sowed. I know that.
Another small sign of progress. The news is consumed with the murder of political activist Charlie Kirk yesterday. There was a time when I would have been very interested to hear what LO thinks of this, particularly in light of the fact that Kirk had called for the death penalty for gay sex.
I am following the investigation with interest, but I have noticed that I have very little interest in what LO thinks about any of it.
A former LO was very political and outspoken, and right-wing, so I do wonder now and then what he thinks about things that go on—especially when his side of the political spectrum goes against things he always told me he believed in. It’s not about still “caring” what he thinks because he was an LO, but because he was so outspoken. Those old feelings were so strong for so long—but now they’re gone. I went to a protest a few days ago, and it just hit me today, former LO or his wife could’ve seen me and I’d never know it.
To Serial Limerent:
LO is very outspoken and right-wing, and I privately disagree with most of what he says. Additionally, I think many of his ideas are foolish. He’s extremely intelligent, but I think he is naive in the way he trusts certain people in the administration.
I am glad that I seem to be losing more and more interest in what LO thinks about anything.
Yes; I hope that continues!
To Serial Limerent:
Me, too. It’s a relief to start to become somewhat indifferent.
Our cat was laying on the bed while I was getting dressed for church this morning watching me. And I got to wondering what cats think about us changing clothes. Do they see clothes as our own fur? And why we change it? She seemed curious as to why I went from the shorts I slept in to pants, shirt, tie, vest and hat.
And then I thought is it as perplexing to them as it is to me when humans put clothes on their pets?
To Adam:
Did your cat approve of your choice of tie?
I wonder the same thing! It’s one thing when they just wander in; when they stare at you like an alien, on the other hand….
Then there are the times when you’re home alone and leave the door off the latch and they just walk right in while you’re on the toilet….Stare at you or curl up in the corner….Why? Why do you want to watch me, kitty? Yes, this is how humans use the litter box.
Miss Norma
She is a black cat with a bit of a white “tie” on her neck. So I’d like to think she liked the contrast of my white tie with my black shirt and black vest.
I was at the gas station after church filling up my truck and washing my windshield and I hear “lookin spiffy” and I look up and there’s a dude walking into the 7-11 giving me a thumbs up. 🙂
Serial Limerent
She does that to my wife all the time if she doesn’t close the door and latch it. It’s why I always pull the bathroom door completely closed. I don’t need an audience for that.
I just ran into LO and his mother at Starbuck’s. His mom is delightful, as always, and LO is problematic. I asked him one question about his open escrow on the house he wants to buy and he talked non-stop for close to an hour and did not answer the question.
He asked me NOTHING about myself, even though I am having some liver problems that are upsetting me, as well as one of my friends having some major medical problems that are extremely disturbing. He just says, “Well, hang in there,” rather than ask for details.
We were talking earlier about how easy it is to fall for kindly LOs who show a great interest in our welfare. My LO is the opposite. Talks nonstop about himself, and goes into far too much detail about home design.
I don’t know how his mother stands it.
How are you feeling about yesterday’s interaction? Has seeing him fed the limerence or diminished it? Or does it take a few days for you to figure it out?
I met an ex-LO from the distant past a few days ago. He was still a lovely man, but I didn’t fancy him. It’s nice to know that LO’s can become ordinary people.
To Miss Cloud:
Thank you so much for asking. I think it diminished the limerence.
LO’s obsession with home and yard design seem to be blinding him to the financial realities. This is just my take based on what little I know of the situation.
He was summoned to the new house 3,000 miles away to do an inspection. When he got there, they refused to let him do the inspection because the escrow had not closed. That would kill me right there. Are you kidding? Flying 3,000 miles each way for nothing?
He can still get his deposit back but refuses to do so because he thinks he can still sell his current house in time. I believe this is wishful thinking.
So I have gone from seeing LO as a brilliant, wise being, to someone more like a child who is missing the big picture. Someone who acts on impulse rather than being rational.
I told a friend of mine what happened, and she said, “He needs a psychiatrist.” I busted up laughing, and it was exactly what I needed to hear.
Thank you for asking about me. I really appreciate it.
I thought yesterday was a total negative experience, but after pondering your question, I realize it was extremely helpful.
Freedom and Truth
Margaret Fuller
To a Friend.
The shrine is vowed to freedom, but, my friend,
Freedom is but a means to gain an end.
Freedom should build the temple, but the shrine
Be consecrate to thought still more divine.
The human bliss which angel hopes foresaw
Is liberty to comprehend the law.
Give, then, thy book a larger scope and frame,
Comprising means and end in Truth’s great name.
On Freedom
Kahlil Gibran
1883 –1931
And an orator said, Speak to us of Freedom.
And he answered:
At the city gate and by your fireside I have seen you prostrate yourself and worship your own freedom,
Even as slaves humble themselves before a tyrant and praise him though he slays them.
Ay, in the grove of the temple and in the shadow of the citadel I have seen the freest among you wear their freedom as a yoke and a handcuff.
And my heart bled within me; for you can only be free when even the desire of seeking freedom becomes a harness to you, and when you cease to speak of freedom as a goal and a fulfilment.
You shall be free indeed when your days are not without a care nor your nights without a want and a grief,
But rather when these things girdle your life and yet your rise above them naked and unbound.
And how shall you rise beyond your days and nights unless you break the chains which you at the dawn of your understanding have fastened around your noon hour?
In truth that which you call freedom is the strongest of these chains, though its links glitter in the sun and dazzle your eyes.
And what is it but fragments of your own self you would discard that you may become free?
If it is an unjust law you would abolish, that law was written with your own hand upon your own forehead.
You cannot erase it by burning your law books nor by washing the foreheads of your judges, though you pour the sea upon them.
And if it is a despot you would dethrone, see first that his throne erected within you is destroyed.
For how can a tyrant rule the free and the proud, but for a tyranny in their own freedom and a shame in their own pride?
And if it is a care you would cast off, that care has been chosen by you rather than imposed upon you.
And if it is a fear you would dispel, the seat of that fear is in your heart and not in the hand of the feared.
Verily all things move within your being in constant half embrace, the desired and the dreaded,the repugnant and the cherished, the pursued and that which you would escape.
These things move within you as lights and shadows in pairs that cling.
And when the shadow fades and is no more, the light that lingers becomes a shadow to another light.
And thus your freedom when it loses its fetters becomes itself the fetter of a greater freedom
Marcia,
I’ve lost the spot of your previous post, so here I go —
“Yes, but there are plenty of people who like rollercoasters and skiing, etc. You make it sound like it’s some kind of unusual or dysfunctional interest. It’s not. There’s a reason theme parks are so profitable. “
I understand that, but still feel the diving for PSYCHOLOGICAL rollercoasters (what we originally discussed about) is unnatural, although I have accepted that alcoholism and depression can be inherited at a certain degree — 40% chance for a kid to inherit from one parent, 80% from the both (based on a medical doctor I saw). If one believes it’s inherited, s/he would not likely try hard to get rid of it; otherwise, s/he would find reasons behind it and try to remove it. Digging for anxiety/risks bring one mental or physical issues/pains, would anyone consciously want that?
“With that young guy I hooked up with, I couldn’t care less if I ever saw him again. “
It’s not about whether I see them again or care about them or not, but the one-night experiences itself with a nearly total “stranger” felt so detached, disconnected, and unenjoyable… I was/am convinced, there was no such a thing as a simple physical pleasure in one-nighties, despite my Japanese, ultrusitic gf raved about it…
“But for some reason, the thing with LO lite affected me. Probably has a lot more to do with me than with him.”
Because your emotion/mind has already “lived” /involved with him in your head before the “one-time”…
“Well, it distracts you from the rest of your life. “
Your choice of the word, “distracts you” is lesser in degree, how about “takes you completely out” of realistic life mixing you with cosmo? I’m seriously wondering how you’d define the concept of “SELF” right after “surfing high waves”, no less than a dozen times, in a single encounter…
“Is that a metaphor? “
This metaphor was adopted directly and entirely from you… I’m a quick learner. 😊 If you use metaphors or verbal images to hint, WITHOUT ever naming/spelling out face-blushing, tacky, or taboo topics (such as…❓seemingly no more terms left in the West), then I can subtly 🌀tango 🌀 with you 🌀 round and round🌀…. We Easterners enjoy such an “art”… 😊
“Not necessarily. I meant a “fun” friend. Platonic. But someone with a sense of adventure. “
What are some Platonic “Fun” with a sense of “mischievous” adventure that can stir up one’s wild sides? In what field, physical or emotional/mental? Give me some examples.
“You don’t often find those people in middle age, but if i did, it would fulfill some of the part of me that … well, LO-lite did. “
The most of middle-aged men and women I’ve known are incredibly boring or “calcified in curiosity and mental/emotional adventurous explorations, either due to declining of physical energy, hormone, or conventional social scripts… 😒
So “LO-lite” made you feel again like Alice wondering in life’s labyrinth? But he’s no longer a Platonic friend, right? I’m glad that my only true LE has remained Platonic from the first moment of Glimmer to the last day with the disclosure and to this moment… an accidental fingertip touch might have sent me to a different galaxy… 🤭
“Which Dostoevsky? I’ve read two of his books but haven’t seen any of the movie versions.”
I read all his work in English, except “Crime and Punishment”, and like “Idiot” most… I watched 4-parts movie “idiot” (2003, Russian) and “Brother Karamazov” (Russian versions — https://youtu.be/Vx2IU53lmbk). The 8-part “Dostoevsky” is a feature series about himself — a biological movie, I enjoyed it very much with so many details — https://link.tubi.tv/phfi6Yr8DWb . Russians know better to make movies out of their own classical literature.
“Well, the show is about sex but it’s more than that. She’s on some kind of personal journey before she passes away. Personally, I found the actual sex in it not particularly sexy. The show is very well-written and well acted. “
As I said, I was not attracted by the title first; but still spent over an hour (after you recommended it) to read its reviews and got a bit of spoiler for all 8 parts, then I became even less interested. I think exploring one’s sexuality, for men or women, is a worthy, legitimate journey and should be taken even without the threat of an eminent death. But sexuality is just a person’s one part, not the entire Self.
“As I wrote above, the actual “sex” in the show wasn’t sexy to me. Walking around with a whip and degrading someone or peeing on someone. Does nothing for me. “
It sounds gross (luckily I did not see any clips), most of mammals would not do that to each other… 🙄 Graphically, I am unable to watch such humiliating acts, no matter for what reasons, period! My brain even can’t separate Dr L’s “lust, attraction, and bonding” parts, let alone dealing with experimental degrading human behaviors….
“But … her interaction with the other characters (not just the men but her best friend). Her coming into her own. It’s a good show. “
One review says that her friend, Nikki, “sacrificed” too much for her and also needed her more, while she was not grateful enough in the end, simply because she’s so absorbed in discovering her “sexual self” before the death. From the preview clip, I like Nikki better.
“Her sexual taste isn’t “traditional.” So the show tackles that idea as well. Which I think is interesting.”
It’s very uncomfortable, conventional or not; it’s unnatural and even inhuman, imp. People in this culture really dare to explore all sorts of unthinkable, some clearly against human natures and psychologies, that haven’t evolved much for over 2000 years.
“I never really watched a lot of Sex in the City. I’ve seen maybe 2 or 3 episodes all the way through. I’ve watched a handful of short clips. Mostly with Baryshnikov. Because he’s so sexy in the show. But I couldn’t really relate to the female characters.”
Samantha in “Sex and the City” is considered as a man-eater, a stereotyped symbol of female sex-libertarian — hunting men everywhere for her almost daily “snacks”. But not only the character herself did not find profound, lasting joy but the actress got “dumped” by her husband soon after playing the role. Of course, Baryshnikov is dashingly sexy, regardless his age…
“Well, that’s probably true. Your disclosure was validating for him. Still, you were able to get some closure, which is difficult to do in most LEs.”
Considering the aged cptsd resurfacing and healing journey I had to go through in my monologues (making him to know my inside probably 100 times more than I him), the disclosure in the last farewell was not that difficult, still I did feel uncomfortable talking about this previously unknown “mental cancer”. Still, I was/am not blamed for my cancer, physical or mental one. 😏
Plus back then, I wanted to see if we could become friends after NC was forced upon and after LE was gone. Then, being honest is the first criteria/step for an authentic friendship, I was making an egotistic and embarrassing effort…
That was, of course, still my limerent brain talking (like some others here are doing). When the LE ember was suddenly extinguished 10 months later, such a strong wish for friendship naturally faded away… My sympathy for him emerged immediately, because he no longer occupied/held an either positive or negative spot in my mind — my loss of a potential“friend” in my mental/emotional and geographical reality, his loss of my “amour”fuel for his Sensory wants.
“I hear you. You have to wonder with the validation seekers: HOW MUCH validation is enough?”
Never enough for them, especially when they don’t realize it or deny it. What they don’t know or understand most is that ONE’S TRUE VALIDATION has to come from ONESELF WITHIN ultimately; external people can at most serve/help as a catalyst/walking cane… for them to independent fill up that insecurity hole deep inside, sometimes seems bottomless, like our president… By comparison with some Limmies here, ET was not an active validation seeker at all in his words, but a passive sensor mostly waiting for females’ adoration, admiration or LE drop around his door, literally….
“Yes. Burdened by thinking about him. Not able to get over him. “
I did not feel so, because a), I was desiring little in terms of realistic “pair-bonding”, at least not consciously; b), later I used the opportunity to treat my old, resurfaced cptsd (once I realized the therapeutic effect was taking place through childish fearless monologues); 3), it felt less lonely to have someone to long for in the head than having an empty spot there. (now I have my 16 selves (based on IFS) actively living there)
As you know/remember, when I first came to LwL, I didn’t want to get rid of this LE… I was rambling about the positive LE affection, possibly not for ET but for the desire itself that led to heightened productivities and creativities… I was afraid of losing the desire/LE fuel itself (which I discussed w/ MJ’s Grandpa a lot)… now, two years later, the LE fog was completely lifted, along with that mysterious lifetime longing, also totally gone with a gust of wind (germinated from my bizarre Waterloo-battlefield envision)… making me free and light nowadays…
“I don’t know if I’d say I “adored” my LOs. Adoration implies love, which to me implies knowing someone. “
Adoration probably implies only Eros, one kind in 8 types of love. To COO conditioned me, an adoration for anyone means irrationality, which was unfathomable when I was not in LE. Love out of knowing someone is not Eros, but a mixture of 7 or less love types.
“I didn’t know most of my LOs that well. I was fixated on them. Obsessed with them. Loved them? Idk. “
This didn’t happen to me before the latest LE, since the previous ones were all reciprocated/fruited in one way or another, or was just a crush for a while and then died on its own. Aside from my xSO, I didn’t know other ones that well, either; but my Glimmer’s subconscious picks were not regrettable… I benefited something from each of them, including two Narc LOs — learning what I hate(d) most and what was/would be beyond my tolerance point (even if LO#6 could make me lose my “self” on the enduring, “amorous” journeies to the 🌙 again and again… )
[“Then, we know what happens in their head when they’re with their SO, loving or otherwise… Has anyone compiled a list here”]
“I don’t believe they have. No. “
Only L.E. is possibly able to compile such a list…
“That’s a question you’d have to ask the partnered limerents. Were they always thinking of their LOs? Was the LO always on their mind (even if they were with their SO and/or other people)? Because that’s how it is for me when I’m at the height of the limerence crazy. “
A lot of them already self-confessed: LO entered/crossed their mind the first/last thing in the day… LO appeared on their dinner table, coupled bed, perhaps during “the rush through the finishing line”, and cried out through their lips in their dreams….
[“It’s on Oct. 5th evening.”] “You’ll have to post about how it was. “
For some unknown reasons, I’m getting mysteriously nervous to attend it soon… just because I dreamt to compose music with him❓I don’t know him at all except some his songs with very spiritual, poetic lyrics… 🎶 I“foresaw” an older version of Dimash in a dreamy, surreal domain…
[” What existed in one’s head, heart and spirit is NOT less real than external events, so called “reality”…”]
“I would argue that this isn’t true. External events, by their very nature of being external, of coming to fruition, of coming into the 3-D world, have more weight“
I disagree! Only when one’s mind/psyche values a fruition — it then weights more. Without a mental process/emotional perception even in spirit seconds (— what’s going on in one’s head/heart/spirit), any events and their results appear/become “meaningless”, just like the ET (from the 1978 movie) puzzlingly watching and sensing us earthing’ behaviors…
In “Dying for Sex”, all the acts/explorations mean a great deal to Molly for her mental/emotional and psycological journey; but may be pointless to others (me definitely included), if not feeling uncomfortable or disgusted.
As you said previously, one-nightie with a stranger meant little to you, but with LO-Lite, it was a bigger deal, why? The same event and outcome, but the latter had more weight, why? — because your MIND/HEART/SPRIT cared and “lived” for him more than with that young dude! Can you say that your emotion and mentality for him was UNREAL or weighed less than the fruition⁉️
Dr L asked in his blog article, “Is a gambler’s high”, that led them to a casino to win (or lose) by luck, unreal or real? Chicken first or egg first?
In my previous post, I was not even talking about just limerence or Eros love, or fantasying a life /going reveries with LO or a Phantom; I was talking about mental/emotional conceptual activities — logic thinking, irrational feeling and bizarre decision-making — comprising of “the mental reality” in the head, in all human affairs. Without such a “mental reality” one can’t reap any fruition from any human events/endeavors!
On the other hand, fruitions of positive and negative events also inevitably produce impacts in our mental and psychological “reality” — we are ineviitably affected, negatively, positively, or neutrally by events and their consequence. And you say mental/psychological reality has less wight?
“That’s how I would see it. It’s not that the unmaterialized ones didn’t affect me. At the time, they very much did. But, yes, they certainly felt like a waste of time once I got distance from the situation and perspective on them. I don’t want to my life inside my head. “
See my paragraphs above. One’s life is always “lived” inside and outside — two sides of the same coin, coexisting and affecting each other side by side. If one can’t learn from one’s experiences, external or internal, how one is going to grow? When you say, one has grown or matured, which parts of us have grown/matured, those external, fixed fruitions or internal evolving mind/psychology? And does our growth/maturity affect our future goals and their outcomes?
“They’re not part of my life. They never really were. You can’t expect someone to care if they’re not a part of your life. I don’t wish them any harm, but they weren’t people I was ever that close with. “
Yes, they were! You forgot that the pre-condition of this topic was that if we bump into our xLOs in the future, what we would SAY to/TALK with them about, nothing to do with if they’re still in our daily life or in our head. No one expects or wants you/us to care about our ex of any kind — one’s mental life moves on as well (except those stuck in LE)!
[you don’t think it’s a bit self-centered] No. I think it’s being realistic.
Again, out of basic curiosity or common sense, if we bump into our xLO, we can’t even sincerely ask how they’re doing as our fellow human beings from their perspectives (but not our relational lens with them in the past) ⁉️ After mentally or physically fondled with them mildly/madly day and night, once upon a time in your life, you can’t even give them 5-10 minutes of genuine care/Agape by asking about their factual life❓😲
I know you misunderstood my point/definition in my previous post, but your thoughts towards your xLOs still chill 🧊 my bones… 🥶 The attitude is heartless and kindless in my 👁️, sorry to say…
“The last big LO was some guy I worked with who I talked to, on average, about 5 or 10 minutes a day. That’s the reality of it. We never so much as texted each other outside of work. “
Even so, he was living in your physical/professional world and your head for over/near 10 years, 5-10 minutes a day rounds about 393-608 hours in total… without counting many uncountable hours in your head…. Now, you don’t care whatsoever about him even in Agape, as if he never existed in your reality? 😳
”Maybe a part of my personal history from which, hopefully, I’m growing and learning. “
Whether you’ve grown or learned, you can’t erase them from the canvas of your whole life, period! Do you consider our faceless, “ghostly” chats/discussions, and debates here REALISTIC or just unrealistic, weighing less than our factual reality? When reading this, where is your mental 👂?
“But the LOs themselves, as people, as individuals … no. With the exception of the one who became a boyfriend, they did not have significant roles in my life“
Yes, LOs are people, individuals who we knew/know superficially or objectively inaccurate, who you interacted with at some levels; otherwise a LE, not just a crush or infatuation, would not take place… Sorry if you did/could not learn something, about life and your true selves, from LE experiences. 😌
If you did learn, then your LO’s existence was/is significant! Why can’t you view 👁️ tough/painful experiences as a real Teacher of Life?
“I mean, one I dated. But we only dated for about 3 months. It was not somehow big love affair. And of course there’s another argument … how big can it be some big love affair if the other person doesn’t feel the same way?”
So your feelings, perceptions, and thoughts always depended on /react to other sides’ attitude and behaviors? So by your definition/notion, any non-acted unrequited love/adoration, short or long — expecting no reciprocation, is simply silly/stupid, unpractical/unrealistic, weightless/meaningless, and wasteful of one’s time? Did you always need the other side’s affection giving to validate your individual, initiative emotions? What about Agape love?
[“Please keep in mind that you are NOT your acquaintance, not a girl next door, not a “screw” in a professional machine, you’re One and Only Marcia! ”]
“Huh? I’m just saying it IS possible for something good to come out of online dating.”
Yes, it’s possible for a few others (like your acquaintance or Trifles), but MAY not for you (definitely NOT for me); because you’re not them or anyone else! Something “good” or suitable to another might not be gratifying for you (collective). Therefore, comparison in any arena with others is pointless and meaningless. What counts is how you think and feel about pursuing a same goal or treading on a same path…
Again, our mental/emotional life, both logical or irrational, wights more than actual, realistic outcomes — pains comes from passive reactions to them; joys from initiative, interrelated actions with no expectations — couldn’t help circle back to Stoicism 😀 It’s mental, emotional, and psychological life that affect our moods and life qualities (after fundamental human needs); — “The happiness of your life depends upon the quality of your thoughts.” — Marcus Aureilus
I’m “forced” to practice my Stoicism — to better like the inescapable grading of a mountain high of homework and quizzes.… 😩 God has mercy! 📿
I wonder what happened with Sir 🦎, MJ’s pizza lunch/dinner with the new woman… 🧐
Snow,
“Digging for anxiety/risks bring one mental or physical issues/pains, would anyone consciously want that?”
Some people have risk-taking as part of their personality. I think it’s the Explorer personality type.
“I was/am convinced, there was no such a thing as a simple physical pleasure in one-nighties, despite my Japanese, ultrusitic gf raved about it…”
I agree. It’s also weird to me to compartmentalize it. To say: We’re going to have a nice time and it will have no connection to the rest of our lives. It’s very detached.
“Because your emotion/mind has already “lived” /involved with him in your head before the “one-time”…”
Yes. I wasn’t attracted to the young guy. And I was to LO-lite, aside from having some interaction with him as a person in conversations at work.
“Your choice of the word, “distracts you” is lesser in degree, how about “takes you completely out” of realistic life mixing you with cosmo?”
Yes. You’re falling out of the world with someone.
“I’m seriously wondering how you’d define the concept of “SELF” right after “surfing high waves”, no less than a dozen times, in a single encounter…”
I have no idea what you’re referring to here. I didn’t write this. I wasn’t specifically writing about the physical aspect of sex. Or orgasm. Or anything like that.
“What are some Platonic “Fun” with a sense of “mischievous” adventure that can stir up one’s wild sides? In what field, physical or emotional/mental? Give me some examples.”
I had co-workers one time … we went back to work after lunch … a little bit drunk. We’d gone to a grocery store and gotten some alcohol. And sat out in one of their cars and drank it, passing the bottle back and forth. I felt like I was in high school. Doing something I wasn’t supposed to. 🙂
“The most of middle-aged men and women I’ve known are incredibly boring or “calcified in curiosity and mental/emotional adventurous explorations, either due to declining of physical energy, hormone, or conventional social scripts… 😒”
Yep. That’s a good description. Calcified.
“So “LO-lite” made you feel again like Alice wondering in life’s labyrinth?”
Yes, I guess that’s how you could describe it. Jumping over the cliff. Not thinking about the outcome. I’ll let the thinking come later. I’m just going to feel the feelings. It was exhilarating.
“But he’s no longer a Platonic friend, right?”
No. But weren’t tight before. We just talked at work.
““Brother Karamazov” (Russian versions — https://youtu.be/Vx2IU53lmbk). The 8-part “Dostoevsky” is a feature series about himself — a biological movie, I enjoyed it very much with so many details — https://link.tubi.tv/phfi6Yr8DWb .”
I’ll have to check those out.
” I think exploring one’s sexuality, for men or women, is a worthy, legitimate journey and should be taken even without the threat of an eminent death. But sexuality is just a person’s one part, not the entire Self.”
I agree. But it’s connected to the rest of her personality. And helping her understand who she is.
“Graphically, I am unable to watch such humiliating acts, no matter for what reasons, period! ”
I think the humiliation is reason they like it.
“My brain even can’t separate Dr L’s “lust, attraction, and bonding” parts”
She does develop a love relationship with the one guy. But it’s not traditional. She’s still seeing other people.
“One review says that her friend, Nikki, “sacrificed” too much for her and also needed her more, while she was not grateful enough in the end, simply because she’s so absorbed in discovering her “sexual self” before the death. From the preview clip, I like Nikki better.”
I agree. Nikki gave up her life. Which is too much to ask of anyone. It’s not reasonable to ask one person to be your entire support system. She needed to ask others to help her in addition to Nikki.
“It’s very uncomfortable, conventional or not; it’s unnatural and even inhuman, imp”
I’m not going to tell someone what is natural or unnatural. It might not be my thing, but if it’s someone else’s and both parties are ok with it … go for it.
“Samantha in “Sex and the City” is considered as a man-eater, a stereotyped symbol of female sex-libertarian — hunting men everywhere for her almost daily “snacks”.”
I know who the character is. What she’s like. I just can’t relate to her.
“Of course, Baryshnikov is dashingly sexy, regardless his age…”
Ha! We agree on someone! 🙂 I think he is SOOOO sexy. I mean, he’s attractive but also sexy. Those are two different qualities, and he has both of them. In spades.
“That was, of course, still my limerent brain talking (like some others here are doing). ”
I agree. A lot of limerents are kidding themselves that they only want friendship.
” it felt less lonely to have someone to long for in the head than having an empty spot there.”
That’s what I think a lot of limerence is. Having someone in one’s head. Having someone to fixate on. Particularly when I was younger. Going from LO to crush to some guy who was kind of cute to LO … I didn’t know what to do with myself if I wasn’t fixating on someone.
“I was afraid of losing the desire/LE fuel itself (which I discussed w/ MJ’s Grandpa a lot)… ”
I know exactly what you are talking about. That’s what I’m afraid of losing. Not so much LO-lite but how he made me feel.
“Adoration probably implies only Eros”
I had a male relative I adored. So I don’t think eros is always involved. Now, even though I adored him, I still was well aware of his faults.
“This didn’t happen to me before the latest LE, since the previous ones were all reciprocated/fruited in one way or another, or was just a crush for a while and then died on its own.”
Well, most of mine were “fruited” on some level (minus the last big LE). But I still didn’t get to know my LOs very well as people.
“LO appeared on their … coupled bed”
Gross.
“For some unknown reasons, I’m getting mysteriously nervous to attend it soon… just because I dreamt to compose music with him❓”
I don’t know. Just go and have a good time! 🙂
I disagree! Only when one’s mind/psyche values a fruition — it then weights more. Without a mental process/emotional perception even in spirit seconds ”
You’re making everything very black and white, which I did not write. Of course the mental and emotional part of it is important. But adding the physical element to it takes it to a whole other level of experience. Of impact. Sex is a big deal. And I WASTED years of my life on my last LO. Years I can’t get back.
“As you said previously, one-nightie with a stranger meant little to you, but with LO-Lite, it was a bigger deal, why? The same event and outcome, but the latter had more weight, why? — because your MIND/HEART/SPRIT cared and “lived” for him more than with that young dude! Can you say that your emotion and mentality for him was UNREAL or weighed less than the fruition⁉️”
See above. It’s all intertwined. All connected.
“See my paragraphs above. One’s life is always “lived” inside and outside — two sides of the same coin, coexisting and affecting each other side by side. ”
Yes, but you can spend a hell of a lot of time dreaming/hoping/being limerent. At the end of the day … get out of the house and meet some real people! That would be my advice to all limerents.
“Again, out of basic curiosity or common sense, if we bump into our xLO, we can’t even sincerely ask how they’re doing as our fellow human beings ”
Of course I could have a conversation with them. I could talk to all of them. I’m just saying I don’t care if I ever do.
“I know you misunderstood my point/definition in my previous post, but your thoughts towards your xLOs still chill 🧊 my bones… 🥶 The attitude is heartless and kindless in my 👁️, sorry to say…”
So some LO I had an fwb with decades ago … I’m supposed to feel something for now? I don’t. The limerence is over. The LE was very painful at the time, but I’m over it now. And I’m glad to be over it. I don’t wish him any harm, but I have no interest in talking to him now.
” Now, you don’t care whatsoever about him even in Agape, as if he never existed in your reality? 😳”
No. He wasted my time. For validation. For attention. And I let him. He played me like a cat with a mouse. I have nothing to say to him now.
“Whether you’ve grown or learned, you can’t erase them from the canvas of your whole life, period! Do you consider our faceless, “ghostly” chats/discussions, and debates here REALISTIC or just unrealistic, weighing less than our factual reality?”
They’re realistic to an extent, but I don’t even know your real name.
” Sorry if you did/could not learn something, about life and your true selves, from LE experiences. 😌”
You’re not reading what I’m writing. I DID learn something. From my LEs as a whole. But my LOs as people, as individuals … were just co-workers or someone I had an fwb with or someone I went out with a couple of times. They didn’t occupy a significant role in my life, like a really close friend or a parent. It was cringe that I gave them so much mental and emotional energy.
“If you did learn, then your LO’s existence was/is significant! Why can’t you view 👁️ tough/painful experiences as a real Teacher of Life?”
I AM! As a whole, the LEs taught me a lot.
“So your feelings, perceptions, and thoughts always depended on /react to other sides’ attitude and behaviors?”
Yes, to call it a big love affair, the other person has to be a participant. Otherwise, it’s unrequited or uneven interest.
” So by your definition/notion, any non-acted unrequited love/adoration, short or long — expecting no reciprocation, is simply silly/stupid, unpractical/unrealistic, weightless/meaningless,”
It’s a waste on time. A waste of one’s life.
“Did you always need the other side’s affection giving to validate your individual, initiative emotions? What about Agape love?”
If you’re just pining over someone who’s not interested in you, yes, you are wasting your time. It has nothing to do with needing validation. It’s a matter of putting energy and effort into the right people.
“I wonder what happened with Sir 🦎, MJ’s pizza lunch/dinner with the new woman… 🧐”
And there we go! MJ … with an LO he hasn’t spoken to. Yes, that’s a waste of time. All those tears … for what?
So asking someone out who says yes and goes out with him … so much more productive.
MJ … you better have set a date and time. Or you’re going to have two women slapping you. One on each cheek. 🙂
Dame Marcia
Because maybe, though his affections aren’t reciprocated they are genuine. I don’t like advertising as freely as my brother does but I’ve shed tears for her too. Not a fact I’m proud of. But it’s a fact.
Disclaimer: I’m not sober (I know surprise, surprise) and taken a pm pill for sleep but still …. Now if you don’t mind it’s time for more vodka and Air Supply.
Adam,
“Because maybe, though his affections aren’t reciprocated they are genuine.”
They can’t be genuine. He doesn’t know her. They’ve never spoken. PROJECTION. We all do it as limerents.
“They can’t be genuine. He doesn’t know her.”
Respectfully disagree..
They are genuine based on intent. There is nothing but genuine pristine whitest of white good intent on my wanting, my desire to love her. There is no shady angle. No desire to pump and dump. The Woman is the primal definition of a Goddess.
Adam get me a tissue please, I feel tears coming.. 😂
MJ,
“They are genuine based on intent. ”
WHAT INTENT? You haven’t even spoken to her.
“There is no shady angle. ”
I didn’t say they were shady. But at least with a pump and dump … you have DONE something! 🙂
“The Woman is the primal definition of a Goddess.”
Dude … gag. It’s too much.
By intent, I mean all my thoughts and hope for her is rooted in well meaning, kind and loving affection, that I would LIKE to pour into her lap. I have said hello, how are you? what’s up? to her.
Just because it wasn’t reciprocated doesn’t zero out the wish or desire. If anything, it’s probably the most credible factor I do end up in tears. Because I should have made conversation. Not to mention other parts of my life right now are just downright sad.
MJ,
” Because I should have made conversation. ”
You can still talk to her. It’s not like the door is shut permanently.
“Just because it wasn’t reciprocated ”
I don’t see how you could possible tell if it was reciprocated or not just by saying a few words to her.
But if you don’t want to talk to her, don’t talk to her. It’s up to you. So then work on getting over it. But pick a side. Make a decision.
Marcia,
“Some people have risk-taking as part of their personality. I think it’s the Explorer personality type. “
So you think personality is naturaly-bornl, not neutered? Or probable percentage of each?
“Yes. I wasn’t attracted to the young guy. And I was to LO-lite, aside from having some interaction with him as a person in conversations at work. “
That’s what I was saying: you had “mental reality” (—attraction) with LO-Lite even before one-nightie: the 2-D (mental & psychological) reality led to the 3-D reality.
“Yes. You’re falling out of the world with someone. “
Not “out of the world”, still in the same galaxy 🌌… with zero anxieties of any sorts… like the brain being scooped out and one becoming a pure consciousness…
“I have no idea what you’re referring to here. I didn’t write this. I wasn’t specifically writing about the physical aspect of sex. Or orgasm. Or anything like that. “
Your metaphor was from several chats before, not the previous one directly… You see, my memory is still okay, no dementia yet. 😀
“I had co-workers one time … we went back to work after lunch … a little bit drunk. We’d gone to a grocery store and gotten some alcohol. And sat out in one of their cars and drank it, passing the bottle back and forth. I felt like I was in high school. Doing something I wasn’t supposed to. “
I never did that alone with any coworkers, but a few together. I did lunch/walk/meditation/musuem with this 23 yrs younger, single colleague who seemed to want to date without naming it, but there was never glimmer on my side. I could do but did not want fwb. Despite he speaks COO tongue fluently, he couldn’t “push” dashing ET out of my system. (I mentioned this before.)
“Yep. That’s a good description. Calcified. “
I really behaved like a “kid” almost during my entire LE (ET is a model parent), which unexpectedly helped cure my aged cptsd. You see, some of my unclear, unmet needs sometimes got fulfilled/met when they were least expected, let alone being planned in advance…. I only made bold efforts.
“Yes, I guess that’s how you could describe it. Jumping over the cliff. Not thinking about the outcome. I’ll let the thinking come later. I’m just going to feel the feelings. It was exhilarating. “
It sounds very Western…. With my highly logical COO trainings and preference of long-term in meaningful relationship/frindship, I could rarely “jump over the cliff” even given a green light — labeled by COO as reckless, foolish behavior. I did when I was much younger with LO#2, and then took the oath to myself right afterwards… It has never been broken for decades up to this day despite ample temptations…
Marcia,
“So you think personality is naturaly-born, not neutered? Or probable percentage of each?”
Do you mean nurtured? I’d say a mixture of both.
“That’s what I was saying: you had “mental reality” (—attraction) with LO-Lite even before one-nightie: the 2-D (mental & psychological) reality led to the 3-D reality.”
Yes and no. When I met my college LO … had things been different on that particular day, I would have gone home with him right then. I didn’t need a 2-D reality. You’re going to ask me what caused that reaction. I don’t know. With LO-lite, I was definitely interested right away. But things hadn’t completely percolated yet.
“Not “out of the world”, still in the same galaxy 🌌…”
However you want to word it. But it’s your own little space you’ve created with the other person.
“Your metaphor was from several chats before, not the previous one directly… You see, my memory is still okay, no dementia yet. 😀”
Mine isn’t. I had no idea what you were talking about. 🙂
“I never did that alone with any coworkers, but a few together. I did lunch/walk/meditation/musuem with this 23 yrs younger, single colleague who seemed to want to date without naming it, but there was never glimmer on my side. ”
I’m not clear. What did you do that was bit wild with him?
“It sounds very Western…. With my highly logical COO trainings and preference of long-term in meaningful relationship/friendship, I could rarely “jump over the cliff” even given a green light — labeled by COO as reckless, foolish behavior.”
A long-term situation wasn’t an option with him. I think that’s one of the reasons it was so powerful. I was operating on complete emotion. Not worrying about all the other stuff attached to such a choice : Is he going to contact me when this is over? Where is this going? Are we compatible? Etc., etc. Nothing dumbed it down.
“We human’s collective insecurity is already big enough, due to the imperfect world and flawed upbringing in just every culture.”
I would agree.
“Her neighbor? ”
Yes.
“Did Molly ask Nikki to support her, or Nikki willingly did so? Based on the review, Molly was not grateful enough, unappreciative Nikki’s caring deeds.”
I seem to remember them having a conversation about it. Molly leaves her husband when she finds out the cancer has returned. The husband is a dufus. Makes her illness all about him.
“Others are free to do whatever please them in this arena, and I am free to express my opinions openly about (dis)tasteful or “ugly/beautiful” stuff”
I don’t think it’s necessary to use words like “natural” and “unnatural.”
“🫂‼️Baryshnikov is one who can still wear those skinny jeans in his 70s and look irresistibly sexy and attractive! 😍”
Well … idk about now. He’s 2 decades older than me. I’m not necessarily into men so much older.
“Just about all of them, regardless a pre-LE friendship or not. LE certainly messes up all sort of “logical” thinking but they CANNOT see it since they’re still in LE. 🤔 Don’t bother to argue with them, it’s futile!”
Yes. Whatever you say kind of bounces right off of them. 🙂
“But this sense of loneliness or void or longing was often brought in or cultivated in one’s childhood, it’s my case anyway — the primary reason of my cptsd.”
Possibly, but it’s not uncommon. Particularly when people are young. It’s also a way to focus on something other than ourselves. By focusing on other people.
“If you don’t remove the root of that longing, you might always feel this restlessness or dig anxiety or take risk jumping off the cliff again… Idk, just guessing.”
I’m going to “pull a Snow” and put the kibosh on this “longing” conversation. We aren’t going to agree on it.
“I agree; it’s not LO-lite himself who made you/us feel what you/we felt, but something missed or longed for from the long past”
I wanted to feel excited about something. Level-10 excited. How often does that happen?
“the closest one would be my Granny, after she’s gone…”
What I’m talking about is probably close to how you felt about your grandmother.
“I’ll try to enjoy my 2nd big pop concert. During my first, rock-n-roll one with SO, his big brother, and our best man, I fell into sleep within 20 minutes until the end of it”
How can you fall asleep at a pop concert? It’s so loud. 🙂
“Sex (or anything) is a BIG deal ONLY when one badly desires it yet CANNOT get it! ”
Well, I could get it. Just not from the person I wanted it from.
“When you did get sex with a previous LO, you lost your interests in him in 3 months”
Yes, that happened. The cocktail of hormones died down.
“Limerence would die on its own once being consummated. ”
Yes. Once it’s consummated, the clock starts ticking on it.
We’ve talked about this quote before but it’s worth repeating. “Ultimately, it is the desire, not the desired, that we love.” — Nietzche
“Well, you can also be driven highly creative and productive! The artistic Dante, Berlioz, Goethe, Botticelli… ”
I guess, but that’s a rarefied league. 🙂
“I don’t care most of the time, either. But very occasionally, my curiosity wonders what they’re up, too, which has no direct effect on my present life.”
I’ve been known to look mine up online on occasion. 🙂 Although it’s been a while.
“I could not help feel this way, and even feel sorry for your xLOs, as a fellow human being…”
Trust me. He’s fine.
“Yet, is it LO’s fault or caused by limerents themselves (I mean their life circumstances/background)? Did any of our LO walked over to us and said, “Hey, you’re so cute, I’d like to be your LO?””
My last big LO led me on. Again, I bear responsibility in this as well because I let him.
“[Now, you don’t care whatsoever about him even in Agape, as if he never existed in your reality? ]”
The definition of agape love is unconditional and selfless. No, I do not feel that way about my most recent LO. There’s nothing selfless about limerence.
“If you did not “let” him, was he able to do those awful things to you by pressure❓”
Why do you keep posting your interrogation points in red font? 🙂
” You’re pissed off because you were played at and your wish was rejected… and you were unable to walk away sooner enough due to your involuntary LE…. 👂 what did you say 👂 ? ”
Pissed off at him for leading me on. Pissed off at myself for all the time I wasted.
“Oh, yes, he’s an evil LO and will have a bad karma later, trust me….”
I mean, I don’t think he’s diabolical. Just selfish.
“Then, finally after you got over it, after you came to LwL and learned about LE, ”
No, I actually learned about limerence from this site.
“you still let the door open for LO-lite, who didn’t give you whatever you had truly wished or what LO refused to give… and treated you as an “entrainment”…. Seriously, what did smart, sexy, smashing Marcia really WISH to get from both, unavailable LO and LO-lite? And why❓why ❓why❓”
Enough with the red font. 🙂
I don’t know. These are difficult questions. Excitement. Sexiness. Probably mutual limerence. And with LO-lite … time is running out, my friend. So there was no way I was going to turn that down.
“I understand your frustration and agitation and I’m truly sorry. It just sounds like (I might be wrong since I can’t hear your voice or see your face) your mind is not totally over the matter with both LO & LO-Lite.”
I have some residual resentment for my LO. LO-lite … I’m not completely over it but I’m feeling better.
“But you “rushed” to dating app to “take your mind” off the unresolved issues with LO-Lite…”
I don’t think that was a bad idea. One of the things limerence does is delude the limerent into thinking the LO is the only person on the planet. And they aren’t.
“How is your therapy going? Any more insights and possible resolutions from your therapist?”
I don’t really want to go over that here.
“I don’t know yours, either! A name is just a label; being named “Helen” or “Mary” makes no differences (btw, my name does have meanings)… ”
It does make a difference. It makes things anonymous. You aren’t someone I can call up and ask out to lunch. And having friends who are in the 3-D to interact with …is much different.
“I guess they did not and could not, if you put them this way. I thought you agreed earlier that sex is never really a simple, physical pleasure…”
It depends on who the sex was with. At the time, with certain people, yes, it was a big deal.
“Your friends sound better. Once Glimmer took place, I always made efforts to move a crush/LO into my “friendship” file”
I’m not clear on what you’re saying. You moved them into the “friendship” file after the limerent feelings died down or you were limerent and also wanted to make them a friend? I never saw my LOs as friends. If I wasn’t limerent and/or nothing (or not much) was happening between us, there was no reason to stick around.
“What’s so wrong with an “unrequited love”, which happens every single second in the human life/history?”
It’s a waste of time. And it’s very painful.
“Well, if an experiencer/unrequited lover, a Stoic, could still carry on his/her normal life, while “loving/appreciating” someone in “distance” without any hopes or expectations for a reciprocation, why it’s a waste one’s time then?”
What would be the point? Meanwhile, that person could meet many other people who could be there for them, who could love them, but they’re so preoccupied with this fantasy lover, they don’t even notice.
“Also adding some spices of Stoicism while still giving Agape, one would have joys — absence of pains.”
I don’t want to live that much of my life in my head.
“I agree — just not to “pine” over any impossibilities! Yet it’s easy said than done. It depends on power of mentality — one’s “mental reality”….”
Yes. I agree.
“Based on his immediate practical goal — a cup of coffee and a slice of pizza, it would be indeed productive!”
I’d like to see him get that cup of coffee! 🙂
Marcia,
It’s so unfair 😒 that you could just blurb out your message to me in a blink of eyes, while it sometimes took a half dozen hours of research and a dozen hours of “rumination” to answer your questions.
[So you think personality is naturaly-born, not neutered? Or probable percentage of each?] “Do you mean nurtured? I’d say a mixture of both. “
Of course, I meant ‘nurtured”, you need to keep in mind one of identities — ESL speaker, and don’t knot your eyebrows too tight while easily spotting my spelling or grammatical errors… 😒. Ignoring others’ helpless errors, especially mine, is a bliss 📍
“When I met my college LO … had things been different on that particular day, I would have gone home with him right then. I didn’t need a 2-D reality. You’re going to ask me what caused that reaction. I don’t know. “
It’s just Eros — your pair-bonding drive, your own libido….
“With LO-lite, I was definitely interested right away. But things hadn’t completely percolated yet. “
Yes, Eros again. No reasons needed to feel this way. Your libido-eyes are instinctively and intuitively sharp.
“However you want to word it. But it’s your own little space you’ve created with the other person.”
It’s a Millennium Falcon flight (MFf) with the other person or Self… In the end, after circling the galaxy round and round, one blurs the conceptual line of Self and the other — crashing the illusion of individuality….
“Mine isn’t. I had no idea what you were talking about. “
I usually can’t remember what I rambled even in the previous post (verbosely loaded stuff), but I can remember others’ jokes, metaphors, or witty remarks. I like that you spontaneously speak whatever is in your mind of the moments and then forget about it — seemingly not contriving to seek any validation… it’s your “P” in MBTI.
“I’m not clear. What did you do that was bit wild with him? “
Nothing ever wild, not even a glass of wine together: a few lunches in and out of the campus, long walks along the beautiful river near me, Buddhistic meditation in a temple with other people, museum visits with his students (I audited some colleagues’ classes to learn about religious studies, philosophies, Spanish, French…).
He wanted to get to know me and get closer, but I was unwilling because of ET, who was his colleague-friend, “inquisitive” of our platonic friendship, and was blamed for not have made enough effort to keep him on the tenure track….Then, he got another tenured position in town, married a fellow COO woman, and had a very cute daughter now.
“A long-term situation wasn’t an option with him. I think that’s one of the reasons it was so powerful. I was operating on complete emotion. Not worrying about all the other stuff attached to such a choice : Is he going to contact me when this is over? Where is this going? Are we compatible? Etc., etc. Nothing dumbed it down. “
It’s your craving Eros, fanned by this “libertine” culture. Neither my cultural upbringing nor my personal preference could make me think this way Ever! Without the social conditioning and personal trauma, I might/could have follwed the footsteps like yours…. who knows!
“I don’t think it’s necessary to use words like “natural” and “unnatural.”
I watched a lot of nature shows about other mammals’ behaviors. By comparison, some of our human’s contrived/invented/blizzard behaviors seem to be very “unnatural”, such as artificially-inflicted physical pains by whipping, become exotic or enjoyable… 😳 Even Proust’s imagination could not reach there so he paid to watch it through a keyhole in order to authentically write about it…. Not sure if he ever understood it!
“He’s 2 decades older than me. I’m not necessarily into men so much older.”
The oldest guy I went out with was 10 yrs older, the youngest 24 younger.
[But this sense of loneliness or void or longing was often brought in or cultivated in one’s childhood, it’s my case anyway — the primary reason of my cptsd]
“Possibly, but it’s not uncommon. Particularly when people are young. It’s also a way to focus on something other than ourselves. By focusing on other people. “
Yes, it’s quite common actually, but many people don’t realize it and thus ignore it for decades until Limerence or another type of trauma/drama trigger off it.
“Focusing on other people” while ignoring one’s own internal journey of growing and maturing? Sorry to point out that you don’t even know how to be WISELY Selfish (w/ capital S). Based on this argument, one needs not to deal with therapy or therapists. There is reasons for Sartre to state, “Hell is other people”! Have you read his short play, “No Way Out” (or “No Exit”)?
“I’m going to “pull a Snow” and put the kibosh on this “longing” conversation. We aren’t going to agree on it. “
The term “longing” concept was brought in by Dr L’s feature blog last year and 🐝 🧙’s link. It hit me — I finally got the name for my evasive feeling of agony, mysteriously, off and on, sensed since I had memory at age of 4! I thought it’s something emotional special/valuable to have, which other people lacked, due to their insensitivity or insensibility…
Then after the final farewell to ET, this agony-longing lingered as the LE ember, which made me feel very melancholy last Fall…. Which further confirmed the nature of “longing”… so familiar to me after carrying it for my whole life…
“I wanted to feel excited about something. Level-10 excited. How often does that happen?”
Everyone in this side of the global seems to crave for some kind of Level-10 excitement/desire; otherwise, they’d feel/claim they haven’t lived… I knew how it felt like during the peak of LE, but it always died very fast. Then one craved for it more… Schopenhauer was so insightful in his metaphysical theory of “Will to Life”! The bigger the excitement, the deeper the fall/crash afterwards…
“How can you fall asleep at a pop concert? It’s so loud. “
Exactly due to its loudness! As I told here before, my sensory system (to sound/noise) is more heightened than average level, which means that it gets over-stimulated, overwhelmed or overloaded very fast. Then it “short-circuited ” — exhaustion/sleep kicks in — one plausible reason that I fell in sleep after driving for 30-40 minutes no matter how much coffee I drank.
I hate and can’t stand TV noises and commercials and rarely went any pup concert ever since (went some smaller bands in a bar with others)… But I enjoyed sympathies and went to a lot of alive opera, so tear-driving…. So I’m a bit concerned about the coming concert — the 2nd one, which I’d be going alone… I worry I’d fall in sleep again and miss his singing….
[“Sex (or anything) is a BIG deal ONLY when one badly desires it yet CANNOT get it! ”] “Well, I could get it. Just not from the person I wanted it from. “
Your preference is taken for granted in the desire itself. I’d want it ONLY from one who truly loves or cares about me…
“Yes, that happened. The cocktail of hormones died down. “
No surprises here, especially you did not want Philia in your LE. Philosophers already knew it more than 2000 years ago…
“Yes. Once it’s consummated, the clock starts ticking on it.”
Not 5 out of 37 people (13.5%) in Helen Fisher’s MRI tests.
“We’ve talked about this quote before but it’s worth repeating. “Ultimately, it is the desire, not the desired, that we love.” — Nietzche”
Yes, I talked this quote with a number of people, including ET… I even wrote a poem about it! But now, out of longing, I know moderate “desire” differs from even subtle longing; the former is normal want, the latter painful agony, e.g. I could peacefully stare at a whole delicious cake on the display without pining for it or buying it.
[Well, you can also be driven highly creative and productive! The artistic Dante, Berlioz, Goethe, Botticelli… ]
“I guess, but that’s a rarefied league. “
That’s where my eyes look up the most of the time…. Nothing else in reality matters much to me…. Material worlds bores me through my bones…
[I could not help feel this way, and even feel sorry for your xLOs, as a fellow human being…] “Trust me. He’s fine.”
I know he is fine w/o his SO. His behavior of playing at you shows that he didn’t care or respect you as much as you him, so whatever your think/feel about him is probably irrelevant in his mind/life. He might have found some other preys to dally at.
“My last big LO led me on. Again, I bear responsibility in this as well because I let him. “
Using “cat playing a mouse” analogy is inaccurate in your LE with your big LO: In nature, no mouse EVER wants a cat to get on its bed; it’s just a fixated cat/tigress chasing/wooing another validation-seeking, more cunning cat/tiger who already has its tigress. In nature, no mountain could hold two tigresses at the same time; it’s always a host tigress calling the shot.
“The definition of agape love is unconditional and selfless. No, I do not feel that way about my most recent LO. There’s nothing selfless urge about limerence.”
Oh, no. When I used the word “Agape”, nothing selfless, unconditional or divine is related to it; it’s Schopenhauer’s “Agape” involving just compassion for fellow sufferers. His view is quite similar to Buddhism, which he studied.
“Why do you keep posting your interrogation points in red font?
Make my posts look colorful… or indicate it’s a question which needs no answers.
”Pissed off at him for leading me on. Pissed off at myself for all the time I wasted. “
There are always cunning 🦊 out there who can “beat” even 9-tail 🦊, especially if the latter LE-craved for the former and often planted herself on his path… If truly recognize/accept your LE’s fault/responsibility, you would not be so pissed off. We involuntarily fell into an altered state of mind, who could help it❓
“I mean, I don’t think he’s diabolical. Just selfish. “
Is a limerent benevolent or selfless? Is s/he even clear minded❓
[Then, finally after you got over it, after you came to LwL and learned about LE] “No, I actually learned about limerence from this site. “
I know. That’s what I said: 1. Over the big LO. 2. Landed in LwL; 3. Learned about LE. And you met LO-Lite only last year (when you disappeared for months) or earlier?
”Enough with the red font. “
Ok, no more red font; but “Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me”. When you came back, I simply could not believe my 👂 that let by his “hot” words, you opened the door for LO-Lite and then crashed into insomnia and agony again…
“I don’t know. These are difficult questions. Excitement. Sexiness. Probably mutual limerence. “
You are the most cool headed, insightful cookie in LwL in the past 2 years (since I’ve been here), are these what you’ve got from LwL? And from your past collective LE experiences?
Mutual limerence? Why do you think a partnered LO could fall in LE with us? If s/he could “cheat on” their SO with us; then very likely they CAN, theoretically and realistically, “cheat on” us with newer limerents/LOs later or once they have had us for an “entertainment”… 😒
“No”? Why would we think we’d be their only or last LO/limerent? Is this ego talking? Like that Sir Judge in London a while ago, who just couldn’t fathom how his LO could not feel the same, after he became so infatuated with her⁉️
“And with LO-lite … time is running out, my friend. So there was no way I was going to turn that down. “
So after all, LE is related to getting sex from LO, which some believe would “die” soon. A lot of middle-aged people have the similar mentality; I’d be lying if I say such a thought never crossed my mind. But I clearly knew what kind of pains would be waiting for me afterwards 😞 (while dealing with an EA unavailable, SO-bounded LO, even they swear to god how adorable you are). Your experience of LE-Lite just confirms my predictiib,,,
“I have some residual resentment for my LO. LO-lite … I’m not completely over it but I’m feeling better. “
The residual resentment for LO only, or include yourself? If one truly understands, accepts and forgives one’s own LE irrational/detrimental behaviors, anger/resentment should be gone soon or later. With LO-lite, there is no closure of any sort for you, which would inevitably make you anxious/unsettled, understandable!
Can you use your wits and insights to “kill” this residual LE-lite, just close it on your own, even if out of blue, he contacts you again? I don’t trust him by your description — how cruel and outrageous that he even admitted he viewed/treated you as an “entertainment”! And you’re still pining to hear from him! 😵💫
“I don’t think that was a bad idea. One of the thing limerence does is delude the limerent into thinking the LO is the only person on the planet. And they aren’t.”
Running to dating apps is to treat symptoms of a “disease” but not dealing with possible causes of the disease. Without removing the root, one will get the same disease soon. This is the foundation of medical treatment, physical or mental.
“I don’t really want to go over that here. “
Totally okay with me. I hope you’ll get something needed and beneficial from it for yourself.
“It does make a difference. It makes things anonymous. You aren’t someone I can call up and ask out to lunch. And having friends who are in the 3-D to interact with …is much different. “
Trust me, you don’t want to hear my talk with strong accent and many grammatical errors…. 🙁. If we live in the same town, I’d definitely go out to lunch and do other stuff with you. Actually, I would not mind at all to have coffee with regulars here, if they’re in town. My curiosity always gets hold of me… 😀
“It depends on who the sex was with. At the time, with certain people, yes, it was a big deal. “
Your “mental reality— in idolizing them” made the sex a big deal… then it grew bigger and bigger when the want could not be met or rejected….
“I’m not clear on what you’re saying. You moved them into the “friendship” file after the limerent feelings died down or you were limerent and also wanted to make them a friend?”
As soon as Glimmer took place, I wanted to move them into my “friendship” file — Eros+Philia+Agape. If I sensed/saw they were not friend material, I backed up.
Remember, my Glimmer was looking for an ideal, familiar “parent” who would always be there non-judgmentally listening to me and unconditionally loving me. Not every LO appeared as a potential, ideal, or familiar “parent”. I did not have knowledge of “pair-bonding drive” before I came to LwL.
“I never saw my LOs as friends. If I wasn’t limerent and/or nothing (or not much) was happening between us, there was no reason to stick around. “
I debated with several posters in length how important “friendship” in COO traditional culture and still under the communism. LO not as a friend was and is unthinkable! For us, friendship without LE is definitely possible and can last a long time or for life. But a romantic relationship without friendship is handicapped, unacceptable and will die soon or later in COO and to me personally. I tried very hard to befriend with every crush or “LO”. Only in this culture, friendship is so trivialized, or “Hell is other people”….
“It’s a waste of time. And it’s very painful. “
I don’t think we definite “unrequited love” in the same notion. To me, “unrequited love” accepts the fact that s/he can never be with the “beloved”, so stay in distance and appreciating the other’s mere Existence. Perhaps a bit of imagination or daydreams here or there, but No pining or LE involved. It’s not “unrequited limerence”, but unrequited love — Eros+Philia+Agape…
Did you watch the clip I attached in my previous post “In the praise of unrequited love” — https://youtu.be/e4t4PliUmdI?si=HI_mCfDEcySxpSCZ? Colin Firth, Alan Richman, Huge Grant, etc. all are in it; it’s a pile of movie clips about Unrequited Love.
“What would be the point? Meanwhile, that person could meet many other people who could be there for them, who could love them, but they’re so preoccupied with this fantasy lover, they don’t even notice. “
You were NOT listening to what I said in my previous posts: the lover sill leads his/her purposeful life, without pining or trying to get this impossible unrequited love. You kept mixing other types of love or affections with limerence or believe that every other limerent would lose their head as you did in your LE… If you don’t even watch a short clip uploaded for discussion purpose, then what’s the point to discuss anything?
[Also adding some spices of Stoicism while still giving Agape, one would have joys — absence of pains.] “I don’t want to live that much of my life in my head. “
Again, you’re not listening 😠: 📣 Your concept of “living one’s life in head” is totally different from mine. Yours is about fantasying or daydreaming LO in reveries; mine involves: intellectual activities, rationality, observation of the world and self, analysis and understanding of others and one’s own behaviors, self-therapy, creativity — they’re orange and pear, not the same thing, Lady!
If you insist sticking on your anxiety-laden spot or keep that agonizing longing in your heart… carry on, I can’t stop you and would not try it, either. It would be you who suffer, not me or anyone else….
Sorry if I talked more straight forward, lacking diplomatic verbal skills….
Typo: “Your experience of LE-Lite just confirms my prediction”….
Your protégés already points out clearly: in an “unrequited love”, there is No uncertainty, thus it can’t fall into LE. In LE, uncertainty is a must. It’s like adoring one’s favorite actor/actress while leading one’s normal life.
Have you watched all Colin Firth’s movies? I did almost all of Binoche, Irons, and Day-Lewis’ stuff…
“But it’s connected to the rest of her personality. And helping her understand who she is.”
I understand her pursuit/mentality, but it’s not my cup of tea, NOT interested, even if I had terminal diseases.
“I think the humiliation is reason they like it. “
They sound psychologically cruel to me. I neither want to be humiliated by nor wish to humiliate anyone else in any manner. We human’s collective insecurity is already big enough, due to the imperfect world and flawed upbringing in just every culture.
“She does develop a love relationship with the one guy. But it’s not traditional. She’s still seeing other people. “
Her neighbor? I wouldn’t judge her (or those polygamous people), especially considered her days were numbered.
“I agree. Nikki gave up her life. Which is too much to ask of anyone. It’s not reasonable to ask one person to be your entire support system. She needed to ask others to help her in addition to Nikki.
Did Molly ask Nikki to support her, or Nikki willingly did so? Based on the review, Molly was not grateful enough, unappreciative Nikki’s caring deeds.
“I’m not going to tell someone what is natural or unnatural. It might not be my thing, but if it’s someone else’s and both parties are ok with it … go for it. “
Others are free to do whatever please them in this arena, and I am free to express my opinions openly about (dis)tasteful or “ugly/beautiful” stuff, like those fussy French ( 📣 sorry 🍨)! I cannot be PC all the time! 😒 I want to be my feisty Granny!
“Of course, Baryshnikov is dashingly sexy, regardless his age…” “Ha! We agree on someone! “
🫂‼️Baryshnikov is one who can still wear those skinny jeans in his 70s and look irresistibly sexy and attractive! 😍 I also like the Capitan Hook in “Once upon a time”, despite of his facial hair. He’s a sexy and emotionally vulnerable pirate 🤩 whose heart is fixed on Emma…
“A lot of limerents are kidding themselves that they only want friendship.”
Just about all of them, regardless a pre-LE friendship or not. LE certainly messes up all sort of “logical” thinking but they CANNOT see it since they’re still in LE. 🤔 Don’t bother to argue with them, it’s futile!
”That’s what I think a lot of limerence is. Having someone in one’s head. Having someone to fixate on. “
But this sense of loneliness or void or longing was often brought in or cultivated in one’s childhood, it’s my case anyway — the primary reason of my cptsd. I think it’s your case, too (based on what you told here), but you seem to be unwilling to actively eradicate the root — arguing that a certain amount of longing is good thing (was my old thinking, too). You don’t know yet what it’s like on the outside of the Wall, just like those partnered limerents.. 🙂
“Particularly when I was younger. Going from LO to crush to some guy who was kind of cute to LO … I didn’t know what to do with myself if I wasn’t fixating on someone. “
I suspect that your tendency to fixate on cute guys is also derived from your familial background (you might be even too young to know it at an intellectual level )… If you don’t remove the root of that longing, you might always feel this restlessness or dig anxiety or take risk jumping off the cliff again… Idk, just guessing.
“I know exactly what you are talking about. That’s what I’m afraid of losing. Not so much LO-lite but how he made me feel. “
I agree; it’s not LO-lite himself who made you/us feel what you/we felt, but something missed or longed for from the long past, or buried within yourself, which was triggered or brought out through the dynamic with LO-lite…. Somewhat like in my case….
“I had a male relative I adored. So I don’t think eros is always involved. Now, even though I adored him, I still was well aware of his faults. “
Due to the COO’s cultural and political system, I still can’t quite know/feel what adoration is; I can’t say that I’ve ever adored anyone; the closest one would be my Granny, after she’s gone…
“Well, most of mine were “fruited” on some level (minus the last big LE). But I still didn’t get to know my LOs very well as people. “
I also got to know LO#5 quite well, although my initial “glimmer” for him was dominantly based on my intuitive sympathy, I could detect others’ unknown pains easily, like a dog… I was not wrong about his basic decent humanity, despite all the moralistic and psychological mistakes he made in/for his life…
”I don’t know. Just go and have a good time! “
I’ll try to enjoy my 2nd big pop concert. During my first, rock-n-roll one with SO, his big brother, and our best man, I fell into sleep within 20 minutes until the end of it— my sensory system was overloaded too fast and the loud stimulation knocked me into a “coma” — one reason I can’t drive more than 35 minutes.
“You’re making everything very black and white, which I did not write. Of course the mental and emotional part of it is important. But adding the physical element to it takes it to a whole other level of experience. Of impact. “
I was saying that even with the same physical element, without mental/emotional process, it could mean little or much less. I used to be a strict follower of Materialism — physical matter is the whole of reality; but after coming to the West, I become leaning more to Idealism — external reality is a product of consciousness. I think both are “true” simultaneously, but found the latter is more important to me personally — it ties with Stoicism and all religious beliefs….
“Sex is a big deal. And I WASTED years of my life on my last LO. Years I can’t get back. “
Sex (or anything) is a BIG deal ONLY when one badly desires it yet CANNOT get it! When you did get sex with a previous LO, you lost your interests in him in 3 months; and other “fruits”you got in the past are now “trivialized” in your post, “they’re not that significant”… “they were not a part of my life….”
To me, it seems that your case neatly fits the theory of Dr L and his most earnest “student” — Limerence would die on its own once being consummated. “Desire makes everything blossom; possession makes everything wither and fade.” — Proust😜 — never underestimate the most verbose author’s psychological insight!
“Yes, but you can spend a hell of a lot of time dreaming/hoping/being limerent. “
Well, you can also be driven highly creative and productive! The artistic Dante, Berlioz, Goethe, Botticelli… and many more, “used their Muse LO/LE to create/produce eternal masterpieces! Anyone limerent can in theory, but how many tried, besides squandering their precious time and valuable talents⁉️
“At the end of the day … get out of the house and meet some real people! That would be my advice to all limerents. “
“Hell is other people”… except one’s dreamy LO 😵💫 … just half kidding… Sartre is also existentially insightful!
“Of course I could have a conversation with them. I could talk to all of them. I’m just saying I don’t care if I ever do. “
I don’t care most of the time, either. But very occasionally, my curiosity wonders what they’re up, too, which has no direct effect on my present life. I’d just want to know as a personal-history “documenter”… 🤔
“So some LO I had an fwb with decades ago … I’m supposed to feel something for now? I don’t. The limerence is over. “
You’re argumentatively twisting what I said again, I never said you should feel something special or caring for any of your previous LOs/fwb, but maybe basic Agape. (by synchronicity, someone in another blog talked about Greek 8 words for love, I was so pleased!) You sounded still angry or as if they were an innate devil, or a piece of “tool” to be trashed for good, once your LE with fwb was over…. I could not help feel this way, and even feel sorry for your xLOs, as a fellow human being…
“The LE was very painful at the time, but I’m over it now. And I’m glad to be over it. “
I’m genuinely happy for you, other freed Limerents, and myself! LE is indeed very painful but not uncommon in the human history. Yet, is it LO’s fault or caused by limerents themselves (I mean their life circumstances/background)? Did any of our LO walked over to us and said, “Hey, you’re so cute, I’d like to be your LO?”
[Now, you don’t care whatsoever about him even in Agape, as if he never existed in your reality? ]
“No. He wasted my time. For validation. For attention. And I let him. He played me like a cat with a mouse. I have nothing to say to him now. “
If you did not “let” him, was he able to do those awful things to you by pressure❓ You’re pissed off because you were played at and your wish was rejected… and you were unable to walk away sooner enough due to your involuntary LE…. 👂 what did you say 👂 ? Oh, yes, he’s an evil LO and will have a bad karma later, trust me….
Then, finally after you got over it, after you came to LwL and learned about LE, you still let the door open for LO-lite, who didn’t give you whatever you had truly wished or what LO refused to give… and treated you as an “entrainment”…. Seriously, what did smart, sexy, smashing Marcia really WISH to get from both, unavailable LO and LO-lite? And why❓why ❓why❓
I understand your frustration and agitation and I’m truly sorry. It just sounds like (I might be wrong since I can’t hear your voice or see your face) your mind is not totally over the matter with both LO & LO-Lite. If LE is truly gone, one would feel peace, like having recovered from a big illness…. But you “rushed” to dating app to “take your mind” off the unresolved issues with LO-Lite… (I’m only paraphrasing what you told me here in almost daily post exchange over 4 months, correct me if I remember incorrectly…)
How is your therapy going? Any more insights and possible resolutions from your therapist?
“They’re realistic to an extent, but I don’t even know your real name. “
I don’t know yours, either! A name is just a label; being named“Helen” or “Mary” makes no differences (btw, my name does have meanings)… But what we think, feel, and say to each other (in public “ghost” ground) and how we’ve been growing/evolving on mental, psychological, and spiritual levels substantially matter‼️ To me, that’s significant and real, more than what we eat, drink and dress, and how we look like with or without makeups…. 👯♀️
”You’re not reading what I’m writing. I DID learn something. From my LEs as a whole. “
Sorry, I was probably carried away by my own train of thoughts… then I solute that you’ve LEARNED a great deal from your LEs. That’s our (not universally) shared goals in LwL.
“But my LOs as people, as individuals … were just co-workers or someone I had an fwb with or someone I went out with a couple of times. They didn’t occupy a significant role in my life, like a really close friend or a parent. “
I guess they did not and could not, if you put them this way. I thought you agreed earlier that sex is never really a simple, physical pleasure….how come they left so little mental/emotional, international trace? Or was it because one’s sexual needs/desires were “easily” met without much “strifes” in a LE?
Your friends sound better. Once Glimmer took place, I always made efforts to move a crush/LO into my “friendship” file, but it couldn’t be the other way around, despite of my efforts.
“It was cringe that I gave them so much mental and emotional energy. “
Well, once falling into LE, our mind and behavior were somewhat beyond our own control, understandable! But now when LE is over, can we let the regrettable past stay in the past❓ LIfe is too short to hold any grudges, resentments or regrets…
“I AM! As a whole, the LEs taught me a lot. “
I HEAR you! I believe you did! Only true adversities of life could teach us something truly worthy! Congratulations! 🫂
“Yes, to call it a big love affair, the other person has to be a participant. Otherwise, it’s unrequited or uneven interest. “
Why there was such a NEED/WANT to call it “a big love affair”? What’s so wrong with an “unrequited love”, which happens every single second in the human life/history?
“It’s a waste on time. A waste of one’s life. “
Well, if an experiencer/unrequited lover, a Stoic, could still carry on his/her normal life, while “loving/appreciating” someone in “distance” without any hopes or expectations for a reciprocation, why it’s a waste one’s time then?
In Praise of Unrequited Love — https://youtu.be/e4t4PliUmdI?si=N-w1VuoYKV0f23xQ (7:00) with a pile of your favorite actors/actresses in their unrequited love… 😊
“If you’re just pining over someone who’s not interested in you, yes, you are wasting your time. “
If one is able to logically and willfully replace the word “pining over” with “appreciating”or “distance adoring”, then one’s life would not be so painful or wasted. Also adding some spices of Stoicism while still giving Agape, one would have joys — absence of pains.
“It has nothing to do with needing validation. It’s a matter of putting energy and effort into the right people. “
I agree — just not to “pine” over any impossibilities! Yet it’s easy said than done. It depends on power of mentality — one’s “mental reality”….
The Cure for Unrequited Love — https://youtu.be/HKviVOv-XGU?si=gOcYiUJXdNMEMjHw (3:32)
“And there we go! MJ … with an LO he hasn’t spoken to. Yes, that’s a waste of time. All those tears … for what?”
Knowing and admitting she’s out of his league, MJ still pined for her — not just appreciating her “godly” existence… then of course, only 💦 🪣 would stream down his cheeks… However, I suspect that some elements of his tears also come from his past bitter, regrettable experiences… triggered by the sight of his Goddess LO….
“So asking someone out who says yes and goes out with him … so much more productive.”
Based on his immediate practical goal — a cup of coffee and a slice of pizza, it would be indeed productive!
******
My message was rejected to be uploaded in one piece again… Am I most verbose ❄️ chatterbox now❓ 😳
Yeap! No offensive words, simply too long in one go!
Who knows what’s the maximum of words in one post? I need to count them before posting next time… 😇
Typo: “how come they left so little mental/emotional, relational trace?”
“And there we go! MJ … with an LO he hasn’t spoken to. Yes, that’s a waste of time. All those tears … for what?”
Snow,
You’re not really saying anything I don’t already know. On point about a regrettable past.. Consider me blessed, since I’m not considering offing myself now..
💦 🦎 🪣 ,
“Consider me blessed, since I’m not considering offing myself now….”
What does “offing myself” means? Offing to where?
Regarding anything about you , Sir🦎, or your 😭 , of course, I could only learn from whatever you’ve said or guess possible reasons behind it…
You’d think one knows oneself very well at any given time, but not so, not so… 🤔 Either in or out of LE, sometimes one doesn’t know enough of one’s own psychology, let alone being certain logical or irrational causes behind it…
I put that 2nd video clip (to Marcia’s post), especially for YOU 😀 … I agree with the view that we (Yours truly, included) fixate on or idolize someone is because we don’t know her/him well enough… 🆎 NO one is a “god/goddess” who never goes to public loo to f*..t* 💥 or s*..t* 💩, which includes your LO… 🧖♀️
But I would NOT say that all tears are useless or a waste of time… they come and go for reasons, they help release one’s stresses…. As said before, I wish my 👀 could produce more tears, which do not normally favor me…
When touching tears truly hit me once upon a time in a bloody Moon, the galaxy seemed to have hiccuped, broken my unwanted spells, bounced me up to the Sun… then gently rocked me back as a “newborn”…
My psychological/spiritual reality”, aside from LE, is rarely just phantasmic… 🫥
💦🦎👙💋:
Sabrina has three alive shows in Madison Square Gard 10/26, 28, and 29th. You can dive in her dressing room for three nights, MJ 🦎 !
Your dashing wife and I will have a heavenly time rounding in town… and I will make sure she won’t hit on a Colin Firth in MET 🖼️ or a Phantom of Opera in Broadway … 🎭
“Sabrina has three alive shows in Madison Square Gard 10/26, 28, and 29th.”
She just played at Lollapalooza in Chicago but maybe if she comes back again in the next few months, I’ll get my chance to make a move and raid her dressing room. 🥰😍
Thanks for the info..
Snow
LO was totally out of my league too. There’s no way even if I was single I would have a chance. No way if I just met her randomly that I would have talked to her. I got thrown into the situation we were put in and I had to communicate with her. And to start that was strictly business for me. It took me weeks into working with her and her “Adam are you alright, you are really quite today” when we would all eat lunch together to relax in her presence. Everyone else was talking and I was listening.
It wasn’t even a lack of confidence per say. Or a amazement at the amount of time God took on her. It was a self awareness enough to know that I did not have what it took to be a good partner to her. If I am having troubles in my marriage, why would I think I could enter into a different relationship and be a good partner. She deserved so much more. I had to work on myself first. Of course in the middle of limerence no man deserved her.
I have a mental image of both MJ’s LO and LF. And while not knowing any Latina women in a romantic relationship, I have known some in my lifetime and they are a fiery group of women. But they are also a beautiful group of women. So I can understand MJ’s attraction, yet at the same time apprehension in moving forward. He could have inadvertently throw gasoline on an already burning fire and ruin a good thing. I am sure Dame Marcia will have her say on this, but western women are very different than eastern women. I don’t say that in that one is better than the other. But I do imagine that courting eastern women is far, easier …. no ….. uh, honest? than it is with American women (passport bros is a real phenomenon). And now I will shut up before I get in trouble …. which is rare when I am sober.
Thank you Adam. Very well written as always. You’ve always seemed to understand my conundrum. Throwing gas on a fire is a good assumption of what might have gone down. Then again, what do I know? She was out my league then and stay way out in left field now. Her TikToks alone are enough to bring me to tears. Sometimes tears of Joy too. She’s just that perfect. And I’ll never never EVER, understand fully WHY, her, out of any other Woman I’ve ever laid my 54 year old eyes on, makes me feel like she does..
MJ,
“And I’ll never never EVER, understand fully WHY, her, out of any other Woman I’ve ever laid my 54 year old eyes on, makes me feel like she does..”
You’ve made her into some fantasy figure. Like she’s a poster on the wall. Farrah Fawcett beckoning you in her red bathing suit.
🎩 🍺, 💦 🦎, 🆒 🍫 ,
I think it’s that Glimmer which have made us limerents all perceive our LO out of our league; others or themselves may not feel any better in any fashion… It perhaps shows our lack of confidence at a particular time or reveal our hidden insecurity❓
That’s just 💘 cupid’s power, and no one in the history or any science has figured out why one particular person, even an “devil” incarnated, could make us to put him/her on a god/goddess’ pedestal with NO sounding reasons 🙄
🆒 👒 , reason with MJ’s 😍 still in his LE is futile, we can’t change a limerent’s subjective/perceived vision.
💦 🦎 : if you’re touched sheerly by your LO’s presence in Tick Tok, then just appreciate and enjoy your ‘joyful’ tears without using the word “perfect”, which does not exist in human life…
🎩 🥃 : Easterners are vastly different from region to region, although they’re all quite macho compared to the West (22 nations). Stereotypically speaking, courting is men’s responsibility throughout the history, and women are mostly frowned upon if they actively court male, viewed as lack of modesty, unattractive, slutty… , in a word, highly unattractive.
While seeking economical or social security as the “foundation” of a marriage, those “passport bros” become attractive. Many of those passport brides are less educated than college graduates with a highly paid job. They have fantasy/misconception of the West.
American women, as I’ve heard, are stereotypically known as practical/materialistic, independently, daring, self-centered, aggressive, demanding more than European women in relationship/friendship… Forget about Eastern women, there is hardly any comparison in this domain…
But there are exceptional ladies in any cultures, you get to know our One and Only Marcia 👒 🪭!
I’m more of an impractical/unrealistic, head-in-cloud “lone ❄️ 🐺 ”… not really belonging to any racial, social, or cultural groups…. 😊
“You’ve made her into some fantasy figure. Like she’s a poster on the wall. Farrah Fawcett beckoning you in her red bathing suit.”
You know, I was never much into Farrah, or those bathing suit posters. I was more into Alyssa Milano. But gawd almighty “Who’s the Boss?” was such a terrible show..
If anything, LO is like next level Sabrina Capenter HOT. Like Sabrina with a Latina flair. Only better..
I found pics of both of them in similar pose and compared. LO is way sexier and way cuter..
No joke.
MJ,
“LO is way sexier and way cuter…”
New rule: You can’t write about women you don’t talk to. That includes famous women. We aren’t in high school anymore. 🙂
What’s going on with that woman who you invited to pizza?
Brother
I always preferred Holly Marie Combs and was the only reason I watched Charmed with Momma. And Alyson Hannigan is the only reason I watched Buffy with her. For the most part couldn’t stand either show in general. I never could tolerate/relate to “teen” shows.
Adam,
“I always preferred Holly Marie Combs and was the only reason I watched Charmed with Momma. And Alyson Hannigan is the only reason I watched Buffy with her.”
We’re NOT reverting to our teenage selves. We’ve matured. Or I’m going to start posting about boy bands.
“New rule: You can’t write about women you don’t talk to. That includes famous women. We aren’t in high school anymore.”
Marcia,
So basically you’re invalidating my LE. As if it’s any more ludicrous or pointless than say, hmm I don’t know, a limerent in love with a LO who’s attached or married or maybe even someone of the same sex. Or maybe even a dead person.
Isn’t this why we’re all here? We are all in love with or in love with the idea of what we can’t or won’t ever have. Right?? 🤔
If you’re holding me to this standard, then I don’t want to read about any more happy little chatting between you and Madam Snow Queen about Colin Firth, Phil Collins, Tom Selleck, Patrick Duffy, Pat Sajak or the Boys from Spinal Tap. We aren’t in High School anymore.. 😆
As for the New Girl, I’ll update you on this later..
“For the most part couldn’t stand either show in general. I never could tolerate/relate to “teen” shows.”
Adam
Can totally relate Brother. The only show that got a pass from me, that I absolutely adored was “Party of Five”. And it’s not because of Jennifer Love Hewitt either. I was crazy over Neve Cambell. Her little Sister in the show, Lacey Chabert, turned out to be quite a beautiful Lady herself. Even though she’s in like every Hallmark Christmas ever made now and they’re so cringe..
💦 🦎 🪣,
“So basically you’re invalidating my LE. As if it’s any more ludicrous or pointless than say, hmm I don’t know, a limerent in love with a LO who’s attached or married or maybe even someone of the same sex. Or maybe even a dead person.”
No, your LE is not more ludicrous than any other LE here, only that your LO is more “glorified” (thus more impossible) by your description of her and the bucket of tears for her and yourself…
“Isn’t this why we’re all here? We are all in love with or in love with the idea of what we can’t or won’t ever have. Right?? 🤔”
You’re right that essentially, we were/are on the wheel of limerence “in love” with either “the desired” or “the desire”. The question for anyone who comes here is: Do you just want to get validated and empathized for your LE but stay on the wheel, or do you want to come off the wheel, free of its symptoms and causes, once for all❓
If you just want the former, ChatGPT can do a better job than all of us combined; if you wish the latter, perpetually agreeable AI can’t do the job alone. Bitter/harsh truths from another human’s insights and compassion/Agape caring may be needed, are you strong to hear disagreeables?
Moreover , one has to realize/clear see that on the other end of Schopenhauer’s pendulum — off the wheel, it is boredom/colorless existence, at least in pair-bonding matter (not Aristotle style friendship). Are you willing to get off the wheel?
It sounds to me both you and her Ladyship do not want to come off the wheel; you for the desired, she the desire. So all the “aimless” chats, discussions, debates about the wheel are just going round and round…
By the way, I only like watching Colin Firth being pissed off on the screen, not his other roles. He’s not my type. I have no idea of any other names mentioned in your post.
I am completely off the wheel, yet not bored but “happy” — your wording… 😊
” The only show that got a pass from me, that I absolutely adored was “Party of Five”.”
I never watched that either. But I remember when it was popular. The most I remember of Neve Campbell is she was in Scream that I “took” (I wanted to see The Relic) this gal on a first date to. She wanted to see, I hate most slasher flicks, but was trying to be a good date. Hate that movie. But she at least played her role well.
The closest thing to “teen” shows I watched was the occasional Friends episodes. And most of them were meh to me and I can only remember one episode that still sticks with me.
MJ,
“So basically you’re invalidating my LE. ”
Sapiens just posted something that’s true of limerence — it comes when we are vulnerable to it. That’s what every limerent needs to address. Instead of going on and on about how great the LO is. That’s not productive.
But you do bring up a good point. It does happen sometimes. 🙂 (C’mon. That was funny. :)) The person may as well be a famous person we don’t know. For all the luck we’re going to have in actually getting with an LO.
And Patrick Duffy?! How dare you ! He’s old enough to be my father. I’m YOUR age. Delusion, party of one. 🙂
Miss Marcia
Aww come on. I’d love to take Sigourney Weaver, Helen Mirren, Susanna Thompson or Dame Diana Rigg (when she was alive) out to dinner and they are all older than me. Even our own Miss Norma let me take her out for lobster bisque.
I had to look up Patrick Duffy. Never watched Dallas or any soap operas. He’s two years older than my father.
And now, for what will get my in trouble; you and MJ have the back and forth of a married couple. 😉 Just saying.
Adam,
” Even our own Miss Norma let me take her out for lobster bisque.”
Hmmm … I thought Miss Norma had better taste than that. 🙂
“He’s two years older than my father.”
Exactly. Despite what you and MJ think … that’s TOO MUCH OF AN AGE DIFFERENCE. 🙂
“And now, for what will get my in trouble; you and MJ have the back and forth of a married couple.”
Yes. Trapped together in some kind of creepy cage because we can’t afford separate residences. 🙂
Marcia,
“Yes. Trapped together in some kind of creepy cage because we can’t afford separate residences. 🙂“
No wonder he’s always ear dropping, even in the deadliest nights… he just couldn’t help it, could he? 🙄 😀
Miss Marcia
“Hmmm … I thought Miss Norma had better taste than that.”
Who doesn’t like lobster bis …. oh I see what you did there. :-/
“that’s TOO MUCH OF AN AGE DIFFERENCE. ”
I feel like the age gap is easier young than when you are older. If you want to date someone 10-15 years older in your 20’s the looming life expectancy isn’t in the immediate future as with someone say in the their mid 50’s dating a 70 something. I can get that.
“Yes. Trapped together in some kind of creepy cage because we can’t afford separate residences.”
I think that might happen a lot in marriage. Especially if there is one that is willing to stay quiet and just deal, rather than the discomfort of stepping out of their own comfort zone even if they know they would be happier.
“Yes. Trapped together in some kind of creepy cage because we can’t afford separate residences. 🙂”
Marcia,
Good times Dear. Good times. I know you love it. That’s why I keep you around. Now I just need you to convince LO I’m a good Dude.. 😆😂
Adam,
“Who doesn’t like lobster bis …. oh I see what you did there. :-/”
I’ll go to dinner with you. But you’ll need to sit at another table. I don’t want you co*kblocking me in case there’s a potential for me at the restaurant. 🙂
“I feel like the age gap is easier young than when you are older. If you want to date someone 10-15 years older in your 20’s the looming life expectancy isn’t in the immediate future as with someone say in the their mid 50’s dating a 70 something. I can get that.”
Well, isn’t that a convenient explanation for you middle-aged dudes and your younger LOs.
MJ,
“Good times Dear. Good times. I know you love it. That’s why I keep you around. Now I just need you to convince LO I’m a good Dude.. 😆😂”
I DON’T love it. Why do you think I’m trying to shove you off on ANY woman you have a shred of interest in?!
I want to find my YOUNG specimen! I just have to unload you first! 🙂
Can’t you move in with your BROTHER?
Just say the word. Snow and I will rent a U-Haul and pack up your stuff. 🙂
“Just say the word. Snow and I will rent a U-Haul and pack up your stuff. 🙂”
You’re gonna need more than a UHaul.. With my stuff, issues and past, you’re gonna need more like a 53ft high cube, Allied Moving Trailer. 😆
MJ,
” With my stuff, issues and past, you’re gonna need more like a 53ft high cube, Allied Moving Trailer. 😆”
Your issues are your next woman’s problems. They ain’t gonna be mine! 🙂
💦 🦎 🪣,
I’ll only help upload your piano to the U’Haul, not your “ thousand years old” 🪺 , molded LE “stuff”, or red👙 posters!
Once you sit down for pizza and coffee with the new lady, I’ll cook my iconic ❄️ dishes in her Ladyship’s kitchen and gossip our heads off about your entire 🦎 clan… from sunset 🌇 to sunrise… 🌅 in our lady’s evenings…
New plans!
Sabrina Carpenter is hosting Saturday Night Live on Oct. 18. You have a month to pack up, MJ!
Snow and I will drive to NYC with you and drop you and your stuff off at Sabrina’s dressing room.
And then she and I will go see some Broadway shows. Tour some art museums. You don’t need to go with us. Remember what I told you when we first got married? I can’t miss you if you don’t ever go away. 🙂
💦🦎👙💋:
Sabrina has three alive shows in Madison Square Gard 10/26, 28, and 29th. You can dive in her dressing room for three nights, MJ 🦎 !
Your dashing wife and I will have a heavenly time rounding in town… and I will make sure she won’t hit on a Colin Firth in MET 🖼️ or a Phantom of Opera in Broadway … 🎭
Miss Snow,
“Sabrina has three alive shows in Madison Square Gard 10/26, 28, and 29th. You can dive in her dressing room for three nights, MJ 🦎 !”
He’ll be attaching himself permanently to her. If it doesn’t work out (he seems to think it will :)), from what I’ve read, the odds in NYC are in his favor. There are many more single women than men. He should be fine. 🙂
“Your dashing wife and I will have a heavenly time rounding in town… and I will make sure she won’t hit on a Colin Firth in MET 🖼️ or a Phantom of Opera in Broadway … 🎭”
I won’t promise not to hit on Colin Firth. Once we drop him off, I’ll be single and ready to mingle. 🙂
“I want to find my YOUNG specimen! I just have to unload you first! 🙂
Can’t you move in with your BROTHER?”
Marcia
That young dude I saw at the store awhile ago cracked me up with his “I like older Women” tshirt.
I instantly thought of you..
You know there are more like him out there.
Unfortunately I think if Adam and I moved in together, that’d be inviting trouble. There would probably be a lot of drinking. Then he’d be in divorce court and I’d be in HR. Both of us awaiting our next terrible fate.
MJ,
“That young dude I saw at the store awhile ago cracked me up with his “I like older Women” tshirt.
I instantly thought of you..
You know there are more like him out there.”
I’m joking. I don’t really like younger men. As I’ve aged and matured, the image of my ideal man has aged and matured with me. 🙂
“Unfortunately I think if Adam and I moved in together, that’d be inviting trouble. There would probably be a lot of drinking. Then he’d be in divorce court and I’d be in HR. Both of us awaiting our next terrible fate.”
Why would you be in HR? You don’t work together.
What if Momma developed a thing for you and she started posting on here, and we had to read about you all the time? OMG, would that be weird! 🙂
Sorry. This conversation has taken a dark turn. I may have had a couple of shots tonight. 🙂
“Sorry. This conversation has taken a dark turn. I may have had a couple of shots tonight. 🙂”
Marcia
I see.. The Feisty old Broad has had a little too much tipping of the glass, one too many times tonight. Oh the fun this conversation would be if Brother Adam showed up now..
Fireworks all over the place. I’d have to leave you 2 alone.
The point I was making up there was if Adam and I lived together, we’d probably drink too much and up doing stupid s—.
He’d be in divorce court for meeting up at the bar with his LO and I’d be in HR at work for hanging around LOs office too much. People say and do dumb things when they’ve had too much to drink. As you’ve proven here with your weird and cringey post.
Now put the bottle down Dear. Before you get us all in trouble.. 😆
MJ,
“Now put the bottle down Dear. Before you get us all in trouble. 😆”
I do NOT want to read posts on here about you emerging from their guest bathroom in some short, velvet robe. And I KNOW you have one. 🙂
👒 🍸 🍹: A single’s night, 🆎 fabulous! 🍹
Sir 🦎 , Sir 🎩 🥃 is paired, you’ve got to drive him back to his Mamma…. try to 📣 call other single Limmies to the party…
Look at the latest posts in the index➡️
“I do NOT want to read posts on here about you emerging from their guest bathroom in some short, velvet robe. And I KNOW you have one. 🙂”
Marcia
Not only is it velvet but it’s purple velvet. Made of the finest material from Egypt.. Super Sexy too..
I put it on and then I turn the lights down and turn up Sabrina.
Perhaps you should lay down now and listen to some Sabrina. She makes every night better..Try not to think of me too much.. 😆
MJ,
“Try not to think of me too much.. 😆”
I can GUARANTEE that won’t be a problem. 🙂
Great! I’m looking very forward to Adams post about this conversation later.. 😆
Lol I don’t even know what to say. But you two in this conversation reminded of Leela and Zap Branigan on Futurama. I’m just sayin ….
But then Dame Marcia had to mention a short velvet robe, and the memory was seared in my head. Hope you like sham-paggen. If you know, you know.
Adam and MJ,
“Lol I don’t even know what to say. But you two in this conversation reminded of Leela and Zap Branigan on Futurama. I’m just sayin ….
But then Dame Marcia had to mention a short velvet robe, and the memory was seared in my head. Hope you like sham-paggen. If you know, you know.”
I’m not as nerdy as you two. I don’t get the references. 🙂
Snow,
I don’t know what those symbols mean.
MJ,
How’s the packing coming along? 🙂
Marcia,
💦 🦎 — the 😭 🦎
👒 🍸 — Her ladyship wearing hat and drinking cocktail…
👒 🍸 🍹— Her Ladyship with “two shots” of something?
🆎 — Absolutely!
🎩 🥃 : the gentleman who loves whisky.
📣 — loudly calling
➡️ — to the right side…
“I’m not as nerdy as you two. I don’t get the references. 🙂”
Marcia
Yes you are. You knew who Patrick Duffy was and everyone loved some Bobby Ewing on Dallas back in the day. Did you forget? We’re freakin old.
Or were you more into J.R.? (Kinda like you’re more into your MJ?? 😆)
“How’s the packing coming along? 🙂”
The Moving Van (Allied Moving Trailer) is already packed. I’m like the circus and I take it from town to town wherever I go. Migrating from here to there. In whatever Woman’s front yard or driveway, that will have me. It’s always ready for another trip.
That’s why LF told me to get the hell on. Because it was taking up too much space in front of her house and it was not esthetically appealing to the neighbors.
Snow,
I’ll have to put that all together in a sentence. 🙂
MJ,
“Yes you are. You knew who Patrick Duffy was and everyone loved some Bobby Ewing on Dallas back in the day. Did you forget? We’re freakin old.
Or were you more into J.R.? (Kinda like you’re more into your MJ?? 😆)”
What are you talking about? That was the coolest show on TV at the time. I was watching it while I bet you were probably busy playing Dungeons and Dragons!
Patrick Duffy is actually a nice-looking man … but J.R. all the way. That’d be rodeo! 😉
“Migrating from here to there. In whatever Woman’s front yard or driveway, that will have me.”
That’s what I’m counting on. 🙂
“That’s why LF told me to get the hell on. ”
Yeah. You’re not very good at “reading the room.” That’s another thing I’m counting on. You don’t leave until someone files a restraining order. 🙂
I got the references. 🙂 The D&D guys are more my crowd….
As I backtracked more in this conversation than I did earlier today when I posted; I’d imagine if Momma stepped out on me it’d be a clean sober man that is a bit more financial stability than me being she’s dependent due to her mental illness.
And honestly if that happened she’d have my blessing. As LE told me, we are both stuck in our pathologies; our comfort zones. I love her and I want the best for her the same as I do LO. If that’s not with me then it is what it is. I don’t it to happen but I’m not going to stop if it does. As a husband and father I have to do what is best for them.
Miss Marcia smh “a couple shots” and you’re posting stuff you might regret? I’m one my fifth vodka and sprite. You gotta get those numbers up. You got a low tolerance.
My brother; yeah us drinking together would probably be a detriment to both of us lol It’s why I drink at home. Because drunk Adam gets a bit flirty with the ladies. I’m sure there are some posts on here I’m glad I don’t where to find them.
I wouldn’t want to meet up with your LO or LF and start flirting with them either. But damn there ain’t no women in the world that own high heels like Latina women. Dear God.
I bought some Guinness Foreign Stout which is almost 10% abv and it’s is f’ing delicious. I’ll have one when I eat a pizza for dinner tonight.
Now off to play some Dead Space 2 and dread checking what I just posted now in the morning.
Adam and MJ,
“I wouldn’t want to meet up with your LO or LF and start flirting with them either. But damn there ain’t no women in the world that own high heels like Latina women. Dear God.”
When are we all going out for drinks? This I would like to see. 🙂
I think you both know what would happen. LO, LF and I would get on so well, the three of us chicks would take off for someplace else without you two. 🙂
“But damn there ain’t no women in the world that own high heels like Latina women. Dear God.”
Adam
You sure can say that again Brother. If you ever get a chance, check out “12 Corazones” It’s a Spanish speaking dating game show, that was on Telemundo and is now on in re-runs. Talk about sexy Latinas in high heels. Good Gawd is right and then some.. I usually can find it on late nights.
Although none of them even compare to LO, who yes I’m going to pedestal again. I can’t help it Brother. She’s just that awesome. I watched one of her TikToks a few days ago and it was just her looking into the camera and eating a taco, over Spanish music playing. I’ve watched it like a thousand times. Think it’s her eyes man. Those unbelievable ocean blue eyes I would so drown in..
Holy crap, stop me now. I’m oozing in LO reverie..
“When are we all going out for drinks? This I would like to see. 🙂
I think you both know what would happen. LO, LF and I would get on so well, the three of us chicks would take off for someplace else without you two. 🙂”
Marcia,
Sounds about right. But why would you leave us? We’re good Dudes.. 😉
LFs Mom is 55 and they get along well. She told me when they all went out for her birthday back in January, she was taking it hard she was turning 55 and considered a Senior Citizen now. Perhaps she’ll console you likewise when you turn 55 next year. 😆
I fear what you guys would be talking about but hopefully it would be over how good I look for 54. Gray hair and all..
“What are you talking about? That was the coolest show on TV at the time. I was watching it while I bet you were probably busy playing Dungeons and Dragons!”
Actually, since The Dukes of Hazzard was always on before Dallas on Friday nights, I was probably pretending I was Bo or Luke Duke, jumping dirt hills on my bike..
C’mon Dear, did you expect any less??
MJ,
“Sounds about right. But why would you leave us? We’re good Dudes.. 😉”
You two are actually the worst kind of dudes: You think you’re good. 🙂 We’re ditching you to go to a male revue! I got my dollar bills ready! 🙂
“LFs Mom is 55 and they get along well. She told me when they all went out for her birthday back in January, she was taking it hard she was turning 55 and considered a Senior Citizen now. Perhaps she’ll console you likewise when you turn 55 next year. 😆”
Why are you razzing me about my age?!!! We’re THE SAME AGE! And could the Universe be giving you any more obvious a sign?!! Does it have to run you over, like a car? The fact that you’re not picking it up … Sigh. Big sigh. Huge Sigh. Her mother is only A YEAR OLDER THAN YOU!
“I fear what you guys would be talking about but hopefully it would be over how good I look for 54. Gray hair and all..”
Ah … that will be the least of our focus once we get in front of the male dancers. 🙂
“Actually, since The Dukes of Hazzard was always on before Dallas on Friday nights, I was probably pretending I was Bo or Luke Duke, jumping dirt hills on my bike …C’mon Dear, did you expect any less??”
Ok. You did redeem yourself a little bit. A SLIVER of redemption. That was a cool show. And I liked the way Bo and Luke slid into their car through the windows without opening the doors. 🙂
Oh… Zeus helps me! I think I’ve just got hit by one of your cup bearers! 🌩️ 🥰
I passed (5 meters) this newly opened “sell & buy” clothing store (after working with a bag of grocery), and then turned back to see what they’d buy back (I hate waste…)
As soon as I walked in the store, this tall, slim store assistant facing the door, behind the counter, who seems to be dealing with return issues, caught my eyes — he’s breathtaking gorgeous 😵💫 — young as my great, great, great grandson (in his 20s/30s?), feminine, black curly hair, huge eyes with long eyelashes, so long that he seems to wear mascara (or he’s indeed wearing some❓)
He did not see me for over 5 minutes, highly focusing on two women ahead of me… When one left and the other paused, I got his attention for my question, “I just had one question, what sorts of clothes do you buy back?”,
“Anything!”
“Shoes?”
“Yes, except kids clothes, maternity stuff, and swimming wear…”.
He’s friendly and sweet, his eyes soft, modest, and voice gentle, “Bring them all in, we’ll take a look…”
I think I’m going to bring just one piece of my clothes at a time for the assessment and some clicking coins…. After all my party dresses and shoes are gone, I’ll buy some new ones and immediately bring them to the store… a good plan❓ 😇
Lady Marcia: now I understand what you meant by asking me, “What if the cashier in a drive-through window looks very cute?” 🥰 You’ve thoroughly corrupted an ancient 🦩….
Miss Snow,
“he’s breathtaking gorgeous 😵💫 — young as my great, great, great grandson (in his 20s/30s?),”
I LOVE that he’s younger! 🙂 Middle-aged limerent ladies in the house! 🙂
“feminine, black curly hair, huge eyes with long eyelashes, so long that he seems to wear mascara (or he’s indeed wearing some❓)”
Was he wearing guy liner, too? That’s eyeliner for guys! 🙂 It can look hot on the right guy.
“I think I’m going to bring just one piece of my clothes at a time for the assessment and some clicking coins…. After all my party dresses and shoes are gone, I’ll buy some new ones and immediately bring them to the store… a good plan❓ 😇”
Great plan! Slowly bring in your whole damn wardrobe … piece by piece! 🙂
“Lady Marcia: now I understand what you meant by asking me, “What if the cashier in a drive-through window looks very cute?” 🥰 You’ve thoroughly corrupted an ancient 🦩….”
It does happen, right? And I’m glad it’s not a student. Much less awkward. Keep me updated!
👒 Marcia🪭 ,
“I LOVE that he’s younger! 🙂 Middle-aged limerent ladies in the house! 🙂”
This middle-aged Auntie can’t help glimmer at “baby” dudes in their 20s/30s for her eye nutrition, who needs Vitamin A⁉️ I can live joyfully, between the desired and the desire (it won’t die if unfulfilled), with a streams of Glimmers every 5-6 months or so.
After my cousin and her hubby visited my town even for the 2nd time, he still exclaimed, “Everyone on the sidewalk is like a model — good looking in great shape, unbelievable!” 💕
“Was he wearing guy liner, too? That’s eyeliner for guys! 🙂 It can look hot on the right guy.”
I never heard for guy liner until now! 😳 I just didn’t understand how he looked like wearing mascara — not shades, but pitch black. Then I was so struck that I can’t remember what clothes he was wearing, black or white shirt? 🤔
“Great plan! Slowly bring in your whole damn wardrobe … piece by piece! 🙂”
I need to clean up some space in my tiny nest, so I could have your Ladyship for Sunset 🌅 tea and moonlight 🌙 gossips… 😋
“It does happen, right? And I’m glad it’s not a student. Much less awkward. Keep me updated!”
Mighty Zeus ⚡️, Glimmer always struck me when I was least prepared! I had a disposable grocery bag with holes, but got a new hair cut from yesterday.
He looks like Louis Garrel’s twin in movie “The Dreamers”, almost the same hair style, curly, thick, clean shave, but he’s sweeter (not so smiley) , gentler, and humbler than the actor in that role… Based on his accent, he’s an American, not a French….
Holala…. I’ve just piled my guest bed a quarter of my wardrobe….
I’ve got two new Latino-American kids legitimately “stalking” me in my office hours… what’s going on in their veins or visions? But these two are very smart, at least, and eagerly learning; the other one is still “drooling” on the front seat and refusing handing any assignments(he’ll fail again) Luckily, I’m so much calmer nowadays and just ignoring his existence. 😏
“I LOVE that he’s younger! 🙂 Middle-aged limerent ladies in the house! 🙂”
Marcia, Snow
What is wrong with you 2?
😆😂😁
💦 🦎,
My female therapist told me 8 years ago (in her early 60s) that most of human spirit/mind don’t age according to our chronological age. Despite we may look 60s-80s, at heart, we’re all 25 ish.
She says that when one’s spirit, thoughts, and words feel and sound “old”, it’s either caused by physical sickness or imminent death…
Now, with us 👯♀️, you know what INFP means, right? We can’t help what we feel, think, and do❗️ We’re “ 🆎 Fabulous” ‼️
You need to cultivate some P in your MBTI, it’s not too late yet! Throw away that 💦 🪣, 🦎 climb out of her Ladyship’s dungeon window, and fly like your kinsman 🐉…. at least to Sabrina’s dressing room soon❗️
55 a senior citizen??!! No, that’s not even close to retirement age yet. They won’t let our generation retire till around 70….
Miss Snow,
“This middle-aged Auntie can’t help glimmer at “baby” dudes in their 20s/30s for her eye nutrition, who needs Vitamin A⁉️”
But you don’t want to be their “auntie.” Or their mother or their sister. You want to be their LOVER! 🙂 (I’m kidding.)
“I just didn’t understand how he looked like wearing mascara — not shades, but pitch black. ”
He has luscious, beautiful eye lashes! ” 🙂
“I need to clean up some space in my tiny nest, so I could have your Ladyship for Sunset 🌅 tea and moonlight 🌙 gossips… 😋”
I accept the invitation for tea!
“I had a disposable grocery bag with holes, but got a new hair cut from yesterday.”
I’m sure you looked fantastic!
Speaking of elegant … I can’t remember if we discussed this … that Jacqueline Bisset starred in a version of Anna Karenina in 1985. A TV movie.
“He looks like Louis Garrel’s twin in movie “The Dreamers”, almost the same hair style, curly, thick, clean shave, but he’s sweeter (not so smiley) , gentler, and humbler than the actor in that role… ”
I looked him up. We have very, very different taste. Which is good, so we don’t get into a cat fight over a man! 🙂
“Holala…. I’ve just piled my guest bed a quarter of my wardrobe….”
Just keep going into the shop. Maybe drop some of the clothes … so you have to pick them up. 🙂
“I’ve got two new Latino-American kids legitimately “stalking” me in my office hours… ”
They see a hot Asian lady! 🙂
I read an article in The Guardian about Annie Ernaux’s “The Young Man.” She’s the French writer who wrote “Simple Passion.” The first book is about her relationship with a man in his 20s when she was in her 50s. I love this woman. She’s the kind of woman I wish I was. Having these hot relationships. Enjoying them for what they are. Not getting all invested in something she knows will be short-term.
👒 Marcia,
“But you don’t want to be their “auntie.” Or their mother or their sister. You want to be their LOVER! 🙂 (I’m kidding.)”
I did/do not want to be anyone’s auntie, but was alluded so once here… 🙄…. Every gorgeous young man is already perceived as “LOVER” in this “auntie’s” eyes ❗️😍
“He has luscious, beautiful eye lashes! ” 🙂”
Don’t tell me that today’s young men also wear those long, fake eyelashes like some girls… 😮
“I accept the invitation for tea!”
You’ll have a homemade fresh dinner after tea, and the separate guest room to yourself… and we’ll upload our giddy gossip here in real time… 🤣
“I’m sure you looked fantastic!”
Thank you for your imagination! I just felt immediately excited and renewed, in addition to a series of workout and PT (to get back in shape after the surgery). My energy level in the classroom is actually better than beforehand (but HW amount is dreary)
“Speaking of elegant … I can’t remember if we discussed this … that Jacqueline Bisset starred in a version of Anna Karenina in 1985. A TV movie.”
Really? I’ll check out that one. I saw so many film versions of the story… I like BBC’s miniseries in its storyline, but not Karenina’s actress, who is missing something of Anna on her face.…
“I looked him up. We have very, very different taste. Which is good, so we don’t get into a cat fight over a man! 🙂”
What’s a relief 😅! If we get into a cat right over a man, I’d lose to you all the way back to COO again… 😨 You’re the hosting, mighty tigress on the mountain called 🇺🇸
“Just keep going into the shop. Maybe drop some of the clothes … so you have to pick them up. 🙂”
The other way around — I’d somehow push those long dresses over the counter on his side, so he has to bend over to pick them up 🤭
“They see a hot Asian lady! 🙂”
That’s bizarre! Latino kids/men have a vision issue and need some kind of glasses🤓. But they’re sincere, enthusiastic, and somehow interested in my COO 🧐… gee those course unrelated inquiries…
“I read an article in The Guardian about Annie Ernaux’s “The Young Man.” She’s the French writer who wrote “Simple Passion.”
Ohlala, talking about that book again, Trifles 🍨 might jump out again telling us how she’s just got a whole bag of cupcakes, not for a secret lover but her earnest MR, rolling over her sheets day and night… 😉
“The first book is about her relationship with a man in his 20s when she was in her 50s. I love this woman.”
Her several books are still sitting in my kindle, but not that one yet. Before her name came out in France, I was already called (by LO#6), “a baby snatcher”, without that much of a age gap… If I read the book and Learn a thing or two, who knows what will happen…😉
“She’s the kind of woman I wish I was. Having these hot relationships. Enjoying them for what they are. Not getting all invested in something she knows will be short-term.”
I wish I were able to be that much carefree, too, but we’re neurally-wired limerents (in or out of a LE) with mental OCD. In “Simple Passion”, however, her mind WAS swept away by her LE, not just casual affection/sex, for the Russian diplomat. Have you seen the movie yet? (I can’t stand the male actor!)
Annie Ernaux looked very elegant, chic, and artistic when she was younger…
I’m going to sell 1~2 fancy dresses tomorrow or Monday (holiday here) to the shop; hope this eyelash Glimmer will be there… 😋
Snow,
“Every gorgeous young man is already perceived as “LOVER” in this “auntie’s” eyes ❗️😍”
An answer from a true vixen! 🙂
“Don’t tell me that today’s young men also wear those long, fake eyelashes like some girls… 😮”
No. He may just have long eyelashes.
“You’ll have a homemade fresh dinner after tea, and the separate guest room to yourself… and we’ll upload our giddy gossip here in real time… 🤣”
I accept your hospitable offer! 🙂
“I just felt immediately excited and renewed, in addition to a series of workout and PT (to get back in shape after the surgery). My energy level in the classroom is actually better than beforehand (but HW amount is dreary)”
That’s good to hear. I’m glad you’re doing well.
“Really? I’ll check out that one. I saw so many film versions of the story… I like BBC’s miniseries in its storyline, but not Karenina’s actress, who is missing something of Anna on her face.…”
I watched a few clips on YouTube. I liked Bisset’s costumes in the Napoleon movie better but she looks gorgeous in both.
“If we get into a cat right over a man, I’d lose to you all the way back to COO again… ”
Oh, no, no. I’d lose to you! 🙂
“The other way around — I’d somehow push those long dresses over the counter on his side, so he has to bend over to pick them up 🤭”
LOL! Another vixen answer! 🙂
“That’s bizarre! Latino kids/men have a vision issue and need some kind of glasses🤓. But they’re sincere, enthusiastic, and somehow interested in my COO 🧐… ”
They ask you questions about your COO? That’s sweet.
“Ohlala, talking about that book again, Trifles 🍨 might jump out again telling us how she’s just got a whole bag of cupcakes, not for a secret lover but her earnest MR, rolling over her sheets day and night… 😉”
What is an MR?
“Her several books are still sitting in my kindle, but not that one yet. Before her name came out in France, I was already called (by LO#6), “a baby snatcher”, without that much of a age gap…”
Did he mean cradle robber?
“I wish I were able to be that much carefree, too, but we’re neurally-wired limerents (in or out of a LE) with mental OCD.”
I’m also too damn serious. I’ve always been too serious.
” In “Simple Passion”, however, her mind WAS swept away by her LE, not just casual affection/sex, for the Russian diplomat. Have you seen the movie yet? (I can’t stand the male actor!)”
I watched it tonight. What I liked: the chic French women, with their long, tan trench coats and heels and elegant, long hair. The movie is very “French” to me. American movies have specific plot points that you get used to noticing if you know what to look for, but French movies just kind of go on and on … and then end. 🙂 Also, the nudity and sex is just germane to the story. It’s not a big deal, like it is in the states. It feels more natural.
What I didn’t like: Too many musical montages with her walking around. And the music was sometimes jarring and didn’t match the tone of the movie. And, no, I didn’t like him. He’s very chilly.
“I’m going to sell 1~2 fancy dresses tomorrow or Monday (holiday here) to the shop; hope this eyelash Glimmer will be there… 😋”
Keep us posted. 🙂
Miss Marcia,
“An answer from a true vixen! 🙂”
I have to look up the word, “vixen”… so it does not sound much to my ears, but in COO, it’s awful….
“No. He may just have long eyelashes.”
I’ll give him a dashing acronym, “LEG”— Long Eyelashes Glimmer, hopefully matching his long legs (?).
“I accept your hospitable offer! 🙂”
The invitation is extended to my all LGPs here —Limerent Ghost Pals…
“I watched a few clips on YouTube. I liked Bisset’s costumes in the Napoleon movie better but she looks gorgeous in both.”
I just love Bisset’s femininity, beauty, and elegance on screen (not when she was younger).
“Oh, no, no. I’d lose to you! 🙂”
With your way with words — brevity, gorgeous younger men with brain, body, sensitivity and sensibility would flock to your bed… They’d be afraid of my Eastern Amazon worrier’s straightforward 🥊 — physical or verbal, and my ESL accent — not French or Russian accented! 😟
“LOL! Another vixen answer! 🙂”
Have I graduated from your ladyship’s training from the last year, when you advised me to stuff/jam Romeo’s toilet so I could use his upstairs bathroom to see if any female stuff in it ⁉️😂 🤣
“They ask you questions about your COO? That’s sweet.”
They even asked what I (dis)like to eat and why; they are sweet and sounding respectful, but sitting in my office not leaving. Of course, the door is always open and my voice loud, so my colleague could hear — can’t afford the nickname “baby-snatcher” at work 😰
“What is an MR?”
Mind Reader. She 🍨 calls him that since he could read her mind…
“Did he mean cradle robber?”
Not sure what this means…🧐 LO6 “bumped” into LO5 once, the latter (as well ET) all looked 2 decade younger than their actual age, while LO#6 & #4.5 looked a bit older. They’re 4 and 8 yrs younger than me. Younger or older, I never stroke the ball first… this “vixen” could/can not do it.
“I’m also too damn serious. I’ve always been too serious.”
Thus, the ageless, countless sufferings in romance we had to go through, while French women could enjoy their lovers, without be vexed seemingly most of the time…
”I watched it tonight. ….It’s not a big deal, like it is in the states. It feels more natural.”
Yes, I like the natural/easy flow of some French movies, American ones are more “contrived” like COO ones, in which morality is often heavily emphasized in romance/relationship, but not complex human natures and their involuntary fluidity/instability… .
“What I didn’t like: Too many musical montages with her walking around. And the music was sometimes jarring and didn’t match the tone of the movie.”
I’m not good in judging details and coherence of movies from aesthetic perspective, I pay a lot of attention to storylines and characters’ internal activities, monologues, etc — 📣 the mental reality.
“And, no, I didn’t like him. He’s very chilly.”
Ha, we at least share what we dislike! Didn’t I tell you last year, he looks so cold with a pair of “dead/chilly” eyes⁉️ How on earth she could desire so deeply to wrap her body around his? They barely talked, except shared a bit food and drinks… and I’d be chilled through my bones… 🥶
“Keep us posted. 🙂”
Upon waking up this morning, I already forgot this LEG’s look except his long eyelashes and thick curly hair … I feel ridiculous if I bring my clothes over even just for appraisal… although I do need to get rid of no-long useful stuff jamming my closets…
Did I already indulge this LEG gossip too much? Remember what I said about over analyzing my glimmers, in LwL❓I don’t yet want him to die in my eyes overnight… 😇 He looks like a piece of gorgeous, sweet 🍰 😍
Miss Snow,
“I have to look up the word, “vixen”… so it does not sound much to my ears, but in COO, it’s awful….”
I considered it a compliment. 🙂
“I’ll give him a dashing acronym, “LEG”— Long Eyelashes Glimmer, hopefully matching his long legs (?).”
Can’t you tell if he has long legs ?
“With your way with words — brevity, gorgeous younger men with brain, body, sensitivity and sensibility would flock to your bed… ”
Maybe for a short time, but it wouldn’t last.
“They’d be afraid of my Eastern Amazon worrier’s straightforward 🥊 — physical or verbal, and my ESL accent — not French or Russian accented! 😟”
Not necessarily. Some younger men like older women.
“Have I graduated from your ladyship’s training from the last year, when you advised me to stuff/jam Romeo’s toilet so I could use his upstairs bathroom to see if any female stuff in it ⁉️😂 🤣”
Ha! I forgot about that! I was giving you some damn good advice! 🙂
“They even asked what I (dis)like to eat and why; they are sweet and sounding respectful, but sitting in my office not leaving. Of course, the door is always open and my voice loud, so my colleague could hear — can’t afford the nickname “baby-snatcher” at work 😰”
Yes, if they’re students I wouldn’t “go there.” But still nice that you have some fans. 🙂
“Not sure what this means…”
It means you are “robbing” the “cradle.” The baby is in the cradle. So the person you’re chasing is much younger.
“Younger or older, I never stroke the ball first… this “vixen” could/can not do it.”
Stroke the ball ?
“Thus, the ageless, countless sufferings in romance we had to go through, while French women could enjoy their lovers, without be vexed seemingly most of the time…”
I would pay money to be a French woman. To have several lovers at any given time, enjoying them for who they are, however limited the situation, and moving on.
“Yes, I like the natural/easy flow of some French movies, American ones are more “contrived” like COO ones, in which morality is often heavily emphasized in romance/relationship, but not complex human natures and their involuntary fluidity/instability… .”
You are so right. A lot of American movies … they beat you over the head with the moral/theme and the issues are presented as so black and white. No nuance.
“I pay a lot of attention to storylines and characters’ internal activities, monologues, etc — 📣 the mental reality.”
The movie didn’t do a lot of that. I wasn’t entirely sure why the protagonist was so into the Russian guy. It was clear she had a bad relationship with her son’s father … but she had a good career, friends. Why did this guy get under her skin so much?
“Ha, we at least share what we dislike!”
He was horrible to her. Telling her to meet him at a hotel … and not even calling to cancel! And then completely disappearing … only to reappear and then break it off completely. He doesn’t give a crap about her.
” Didn’t I tell you last year, he looks so cold with a pair of “dead/chilly” eyes⁉️”
I agree.
“How on earth she could desire so deeply to wrap her body around his? They barely talked, except shared a bit food and drinks… and I’d be chilled through my bones… 🥶”
I agree. He didn’t keep in contact with her other than to call to say he was on his way over for sex. He barely shared anything with her. He wasn’t affectionate with her. I did think the sex scenes were hot … but there wasn’t much beyond that.
“Did I already indulge this LEG gossip too much? Remember what I said about over analyzing my glimmers, in LwL❓I don’t yet want him to die in my eyes overnight… 😇 He looks like a piece of gorgeous, sweet 🍰 😍”
We won’t over analyze him. We just want to hear about his lusciousness. 🙂
I saw the movie for Simple Passion a couple months ago, after reading both the book and the journal it was based on. It was different in many ways:
He seemed to care at least a little bit more for her in the books, at least at first, and they interacted more than just sex. He kept disappearing on her, but this was during a time when people didn’t have cell phones and he was living inside the Iron Curtain most of the time. There was also no drama with the ex that I recall, since their kids were older. Lots of things were added to fit the theme of a mother neglecting her life because of her obsession.
Another thing is how the movie version of her was much younger and felt plain, while the author was about 50 and kept getting hit on by young and old men wherever she went.
Lady Marcia,
“I considered it a compliment. 🙂”
What a cultural shock!😳 In COO, it’s so negative! See how difficult I had to adopt — so many things are upside down 🙃 in the two words❗️
“Can’t you tell if he has long legs ?”
He was standing behind a counter blocking one’s view..
“Not necessarily. Some younger men like older women.”
They are rare or dying species in any culture..
“Ha! I forgot about that! I was giving you some damn good advice! 🙂”
No one could forget Dame Marcia’s 🆎 unique advice!
“ But still nice that you have some fans. 🙂”
They can sense my passion/Qi for a lot of things, like babies and dogs…
“It means you are “robbing” the “cradle.” The baby is in the cradle. So the person you’re chasing is much younger.”
My subconscious glimmer was searching for an idealized parent, not a baby in a cradle (a bit like my xSO, who was looking for a 2nd Mom).
“Stroke the ball ?”
I meant to make the very first move — striking a baseball! All I could manage to do was to take someone to the baseball field, then waiting for the tango invite…
“I would pay money to be a French woman. To have several lovers at any given time, enjoying them for who they are, however limited the situation, and moving on.”
I’ll go to get myself frozen in science lab and wake up 10 years later to become a French woman…..
“You are so right. A lot of American movies … they beat you over the head with the moral/theme and the issues are presented as so black and white. No nuance.”
I barely watch any American movies anymore since ❓
“…but she had a good career, friends. Why did this guy get under her skin so much?”
It’s her Limerence❗️ From her book I get it why she fell for him at a party… there were a lot more of her inner life (like SL said), but in the movie, those monologues were also cut….
“He was horrible to her. Telling her to meet him at a hotel … and not even calling to cancel! And then completely disappearing … only to reappear and then break it off completely. He doesn’t give a crap about her.”
Being married with kids does not grant a man treating his on-call mistress like that! 😡
“I read the book first, so I could check whether the movie could match that… Nope!
“We won’t over analyze him. We just want to hear about his lusciousness.”
**************
I just came back from the shop, Mama Mia 😇, there appeared a 2nd cup bearer, whom I spotted first through the window before walking in‼️ This store must be run by Hara herself, how anyone could handle two Zeus’ cup bearers one after another 😍 before one could collect first set of breath ⁉️ TOO MUCH, TOO MUCH ‼️
As I walked in, this 2nd cup bearer just finished with a customer and walked up to me from my left side, and eyed me like a sweet, feminine version of your Greg Wise in his 20s, with black curly hair, slim, shorter than LEG… my heart skipped a beat…⚡️ but smiles were hanging on my face…I could feel them, with the whole LwL behind my shoulder watching 👁️ …
Meanwhile, LEG was on my right side checking another seller’s stuff. My quick glance made sure that he does not wear fake eye lashes — that thick black liner seems to be gone, but the thick hair is still curly, shining, pitch black, and he looked like fragile flower girly-boy about 16-18! I’d become a great, great Granny soon if my Glimmer looks a decade younger at a daily pace ❗️
the 2nd cup bearer, let’s call him — CWG — Curley-hair Wise Glimmer, charmingly chatted me up, “wanna to sell clothes?” His eyebrows are rising, eyes sweetly smiling… (like a sociable version of my LO#1)
“yes.”
“Do you have an ID with a photo?”
“Yes, my work ID.”
“no State issued ID?”
“I didn’t bring it with me. But I have a photo copy of my Drivers’ license or passport”.
“No, that wouldn’t do. But by law, for selling and busying, we need to see a physical ID….” You’re not a liquor store!
Gee, why LEG did not tell me about this yesterday? then CWG continued his seductive smiles, attending me, while I was standing between the two.
So I repeated my question for LEG of yesterday (he’s too busy to notice what was going on around him), “how does this selling thing work here? Evidently, this is the first time I’m here…”
So with his charming smiles and impeccable patience, he explained how they appraise clothes and give a price offer in a couple of hours, then cash to you if you agree…. I listened to him in amusement….
Noticing some broken jeans and floral shoes on the stacks, I struck another questions: “Do you take vintage clothes? You see, I’ve got some stuff even from my older generation…” I must’ve sounded doubtful…
“Yes, we do! Bring them in…. “ sounding sincere and coaxing….
“You see, we’re crowed at the weekend….” more seductive smiles… I was “speechless…
I sideway eyed him: with you two welcoming us at the door, all beautiful clothes and “vixens” in the neighborhood would soon flock into your store, making you soon “rich”❗️ (The store opened in the end of July)
By then, LEG looked just a shy teenager girly-boy — a piece of 🍰 in display, this CWG seems to be a 9-tailed 🦊… Mama Mia! 🙃
What did I tell you about LEG this morning when I woke up? The Glimmer for him lasted less than 24 hours, due to another Glimmer “thundered” in…
Now, I feel a bit less worried — If I go in there again at any given time, one or both Glimmer would/should be there… It can’t be that both are absent at the same time… right? 😍
Lady Marcia, maybe you want to migrate to my town? 😝 Zeus and Hara just can’t stop favoring it throughout centuries… 🌌
Typo: “so many things are upside down 🙃 in the two worlds❗️”
Appendix: there was a street fair primarily themed with Japanese festival food right outside the shop; so not only I didn’t waste my trip to see LEG and bump into CWG, but I also browsed the street affair and watched a young Japanese man dancing hip-pop very energetically with an older Japanese guy drumming, right after I came out of the shop — celebrating my luck?
I listened to chats among venders to distinguish whether they are Japanese or Chinese, and then decided whose food to buy. There were other types of ethnic food vendors.… My five senses were quite fed…
Under the bright, warm autumn sun, I ate the freshly prepared vendor food on a park bench, and then walked home through the luscious park next to my home, feeling quite lucky and content for today — breathing between the desire and the desired (2~3) without being sucked into a limerence or some unknown, yucky longing… ☺️
Tomorrow is another day, I get to go the shop again… 😜
Miss Snow,
“What a cultural shock!😳 In COO, it’s so negative! See how difficult I had to adopt — so many things are upside down 🙃 in the two words❗️”
Here’s the online definition: A vixen woman is a term, derived from the female fox, used to describe a woman who is attractive, seductive, and often possesses a spirited or cunning nature. The term implies a combination of strong sexual appeal, mystery, and intelligence.
Sounds good to me. 🙂
[“Not necessarily. Some younger men like older women.”]
“They are rare or dying species in any culture..”
I’ve found that many younger men are into older women. But they look at it like a sexual or short-term thing.
“No one could forget Dame Marcia’s 🆎 unique advice!”
Is “unique” a polite way of saying “crazy”? 🙂
“My subconscious glimmer was searching for an idealized parent, not a baby in a cradle (a bit like my xSO, who was looking for a 2nd Mom).”
If you’re both looking for a parent … isn’t that a problem? It’s like the saying that one person is the flower and the other is the gardener. Can’t have two flowers.
“I’ll go to get myself frozen in science lab and wake up 10 years later to become a French woman…..”
Why 10 years from now? Why not now? 🙂
“It’s her Limerence❗️ From her book I get it why she fell for him at a party… there were a lot more of her inner life (like SL said), but in the movie, those monologues were also cut….”
The movie needed more context. Where did she meet him? What was her life like before she met him so that his attention was so powerful, etc.?
“Being married with kids does not grant a man treating his on-call mistress like that! 😡”‘
Does he have kids? I don’t remember that in the movie. Maybe it was alluded to but I didn’t catch it.
I prefer the term “affair partner.” Mistress sounds old-fashioned and puts the blame on the woman even though the married man is right there with in the affair.
I agree with you. He has entered into some kind of relationship with her. He shouldn’t treat her the way he does.
“I just came back from the shop, Mama Mia 😇, there appeared a 2nd cup bearer, whom I spotted first through the window before walking in‼️ This store must be run by Hara herself, how anyone could handle two Zeus’ cup bearers one after another 😍 before one could collect first set of breath ⁉️ TOO MUCH, TOO MUCH ‼️”
Ok … um … do these two own the shop? I have to ask … they’re not together, are they?
“As I walked in, this 2nd cup bearer just finished with a customer and walked up to me from my left side, and eyed me like a sweet, feminine version of your Greg Wise in his 20s”
I don’t want a feminized image of Greg Wise. 🙂 If you can find the 2000 version of “Madame Bovary.” OMG is he sexy in it. “I could terrify you, Emma …” I have to get out my smelling salts for that one. 🙂
Yeah, why do you need a photo ID to sell clothes? It’s a bit over the top.
“Now, I feel a bit less worried — If I go in there again at any given time, one or both Glimmer would/should be there… It can’t be that both are absent at the same time… right? 😍”
Do you get their names? So you can call ahead of time to see if they are there? 🙂
“Lady Marcia, maybe you want to migrate to my town? 😝 Zeus and Hara just can’t stop favoring it throughout centuries… 🌌”
You do seem to have a lot of hotties in your town. Mine is … seemingly devoid of them. 🙂
“Under the bright, warm autumn sun, I ate the freshly prepared vendor food on a park bench, and then walked home through the luscious park next to my home, feeling quite lucky and content for today — breathing between the desire and the desired (2~3) without being sucked into a limerence or some unknown, yucky longing… ☺️”
Sounds like a good day.
Serial,
” while the author was about 50 and kept getting hit on by young and old men wherever she went.”
Now that’s a movie I’d like to see. Seriously. 🙂
Lady Marcia,
“Here’s the online definition: A vixen woman is a term, derived from the female fox, used to describe a woman who is attractive, seductive, and often possesses a spirited or cunning nature. The term implies a combination of strong sexual appeal, mystery, and intelligence.
Sounds good to me. 🙂”
Hmmm… 🤔 not so to me. In COO, a fox 🦊 symbolizes only clever or cunning nature in seductive, greedy women, which is very frowned upon. She’d be slutty without education, without manner, without mysteries whatsoever — “her intelligence is used to plot how to pull off pants of men, especially of virtuous men.…” 😉
Thank you, I love my own spirited icon —❄️🐦🔥, burning 🔥 some with Snow 😆… If you like, I’ll give you ♋️ 🦊— 9 tailed fox? After all, we live in this side of the Globe…
“I’ve found that many younger men are into older women. But they look at it like a sexual or short-term thing.”
Exactly. Short-term is a big turnoff, not my cup of tea in my entire life; it causes chaotic spins, both to children and grownup. French President, Macron, is probably the last stubborn man on earth who married his teacher of 2.5 decades older, a bolder step than Napoleon — perhaps a tradition of French rulers❓
“Is “unique” a polite way of saying “crazy”? 🙂”
Nope, it’s my sincere compliment to your wits, insights, advice, and actions: ducking in LO’s walking path/route, dropping ✏️ ✏️ in front of LO’s skinny jeans, jamming a Romeo’s toilet bowl, ordering Sir🦎 to 🧼 clean up ❄️’s powder/bath room, putting disobedient 🎩 🥃, 💦 🦎 🪣, 🎩 🐍 to your prison cells, alone or separate, and then sending the 😍 🏠 limmie to guard 🛡️ the dungeon… who else is so “unique” in LwL❓🧐
“If you’re both looking for a parent … isn’t that a problem? It’s like the saying that one person is the flower and the other is the gardener. Can’t have two flowers.”
Precisely! None of us was clear what we were doing but I ended up “parenting” a big “boy” in all fronts, exhausted. I did not know all my life until the last LE that I was searching for an idealized surrogate parent in all my crushes and LOs…. Now, I’ve finally grown into a tree, so need no gardeners anymore.
“Why 10 years from now? Why not now? 🙂”
I meant now, and then being frozen for 10~20 years…
“The movie needed more context. Where did she meet him? What was her life like before she met him so that his attention was so powerful, etc.?”
I agree. Without reading the book, the audience may have troubles understanding how/why she slipped into self-destruction due to a married man for a CASUAL lover…
“Does he have kids? I don’t remember that in the movie. Maybe it was alluded to but I didn’t catch it.”
I might be wrong. He was 36, she 49. In reality, she had two grown sons during that event, while in movie it’s just one younger kid. Why changing such a detail?
“I prefer the term “affair partner.” Mistress sounds old-fashioned and puts the blame on the woman even though the married man is right there with in the affair.”
How interesting! In COO, it would be opposite — “mistress” insinuates it’s the man’s “fault”; “partner” both sides, which then is worse for the woman — she’d be a slutty, “little three” 🦊 !
“Ok … um … do these two own the shop? I have to ask … they’re not together, are they?”
No, they don’t own the shop, Hara or Zeus does! How on earth could I know if they’re together❓ If they are, LEG would definitely be “female”, WHG (Wavy Hair Glimmer) “male”.
“I don’t want a feminized image of Greg Wise. 🙂”
It’s not for you, but possibly for me… 😝
“ If you can find the 2000 version of “Madame Bovary.” OMG is he sexy in it. “I could terrify you, Emma …” I have to get out my smelling salts for that one. 🙂”
You told me this before. Greg Wise sounded like a cunning 🦊 or 🐺 in the movie, I’d run miles away before he even delivers that line… I’m not romance-novel addict, “Emma” 😀
“Do you get their names? So you can call ahead of time to see if they are there? 🙂”
Your Ladyship, are you giving advice to a middle-aged Auntie to seduce male, flowery, cupcake like shop assistants❓ How on earth I could get their names? If you have them sent to my bed, I would NOT know what to do with them, especially the extremely shy LEG 😳
I went back to the shop today, LEG was not there, and I “killed” WHG, who was wearing a boggy jeans, long sweater shirt, and a baseball cap — he looked so normal like any other young man in his early 20s (still sweet and good looking).
I had my huge, black sunglasses on and purposefully did not speak to him but another very tall, masculine male assistant who was dealing with my old clothes. WHG looked a bit upset as he walked away from his greeting post, but I needed to squash big Glimmers — 📣 you advised me to do so!
“You do seem to have a lot of hotties in your town. Mine is … seemingly devoid of them. 🙂”
Hotties, males and females, in our town are as many as pumpkins before Halloween‼️ We no longer notice them particularly….
“Sounds like a good day.”
With a bit desires in moderation, some desired in eyes and in mind, and plenty gratitudes to what one already has in life, everyday could be a good day — It has not “gone with wind”! 😊
Lady Snow,
” “her intelligence is used to plot how to pull off pants of men, especially of virtuous men.…” 😉”
I see nothing wrong with that. 🙂
“Exactly. Short-term is a big turnoff, not my cup of tea in my entire life; it causes chaotic spins, both to children and grownup.”
They just want the sexual experience. And I have ZERO interest in being a teacher. 🙂
” French President, Macron, is probably the last stubborn man on earth who married his teacher of 2.5 decades older, a bolder step than Napoleon — perhaps a tradition of French rulers❓”
Idk. Didn’t they meet when he in high school? She was older, married and had kids. This is according to his Wikipedia page … his parents sent him away for his last year of high school to get him away from her. Her Wikipedia page says he was 15 and she was 39. We’re getting into child predator territory here.
I applaud that he likes older women, but still …
“Nope, it’s my sincere compliment to your wits, insights, advice, and actions: ducking in LO’s walking path/route, dropping ✏️ ✏️ in front of LO’s skinny jeans, jamming a Romeo’s toilet bowl, ordering Sir🦎 to 🧼 clean up ❄️’s powder/bath room, putting disobedient 🎩 🥃, 💦 🦎 🪣, 🎩 🐍 to your prison cells, alone or separate, and then sending the 😍 🏠 limmie to guard 🛡️ the dungeon… who else is so “unique” in LwL❓🧐”
That’s sweet of you. Ha! I’d forgotten we’d asked Sir Lizard to clean up your powder room. And of course… he dropped the ball. 🙁
“I did not know all my life until the last LE that I was searching for an idealized surrogate parent in all my crushes and LOs…. ”
Isn’t it weird how it takes all that time to figure it out? Sometimes you can sense something but it can take years and many additional experiences to put it all together.
“I meant now, and then being frozen for 10~20 years…”
I would have been frozen at 25. All my passwords … have the number 25 in them. It’s a glorious age. 🙂
“I agree. Without reading the book, the audience may have troubles understanding how/why she slipped into self-destruction due to a married man for a CASUAL lover…”
I agree. It’s not clear why he has such a hold on her. Now, by contrast, think about the scene in Damage where the Juliette Binoche character introduces herself to the Jeremy Irons character. You can totally understand how his life will never be the same.
“I might be wrong. He was 36, she 49. In reality, she had two grown sons during that event, while in movie it’s just one younger kid. Why changing such a detail?”
I’m not sure. The facts you’re describing are actually more interesting than the ones in the movie.
“How interesting! In COO, it would be opposite — “mistress” insinuates it’s the man’s “fault”; “partner” both sides, which then is worse for the woman — she’d be a slutty, “little three” 🦊 !”
Hmmm … I think of “partner” as sharing the responsibility.
“How on earth could I know if they’re together❓ If they are, LEG would definitely be “female”, WHG (Wavy Hair Glimmer) “male”.”
I mean … you described two good-looking, slightly femmy guys in a clothing store. It’s not a big leap. 🙂
“It’s not for you, but possibly for me… 😝”
They’re all yours. 🙂
“I’d run miles away before he even delivers that line… ”
I’d pay MONEY to hear him deliver that line. 🙂
“Your Ladyship, are you giving advice to a middle-aged Auntie to seduce male, flowery, cupcake like shop assistants❓”
Yes 🙂
“How on earth I could get their names?”
They might have been wearing nametags. Or you could ask, “What’s your name? You’ve been so helpful I want to make sure you’ll be here tomorrow when I bring my clothes in.” 🙂
” If you have them sent to my bed, I would NOT know what to do with them, especially the extremely shy LEG 😳”
Yes, you would. 🙂
“who was wearing a boggy jeans, long sweater shirt, and a baseball cap — he looked so normal like any other young man in his early 20s (still sweet and good looking).”
That outfit does sound atrocious. 🙂
“but I needed to squash big Glimmers — 📣 you advised me to do so!”
I thought these were small glimmers ?
Lady Marcia,
[her intelligence is used to plot how to pull off pants of men, especially of virtuous men.…” 😉]
“I see nothing wrong with that. 🙂”
In COO, everything was/is wrong with that statement; a 🦊 woman was/is considered as an “evil”/immoral force throughout COO history (there is a very chilly poem about it in a famous classical book…). It sets the fundamental difference between Westerner women and many Eastern ones.
Now, you understand why so many of us were/are very shy in “chasing /dealing with men❓Moreover, they did/do not dear to talk about their desires to anyone else (doctor included) or among each other. Taboo is still very much alive!
“They just want the sexual experience. And I have ZERO interest in being a teacher. 🙂”
Me, too.
”Didn’t they meet when he in high school?…I applaud that he likes older women, but still …”
Based on what I read, he met her in his drama class, and fell in love with her. She was married with 3 kids. He declared his love, but even she didn’t believe it and told him that she had a family. His parents were furious and sent him away.
But he swore to her that he’d come back after growing up. He went away a few years and came back for her. Meanwhile, her marriage fell apart (not sure if it’s due to Macron). So she got divorced and married her student. Her three children seemed to be okay with it… well, they’re French.
“That’s sweet of you. Ha! I’d forgotten we’d asked Sir Lizard to clean up your powder room. And of course… he dropped the ball. 🙁”
Sir🦎 had his Grandpa’s caring and watchful eyes 👁️ on him… so he dared to defy your ladyship’s order…
“Isn’t it weird how it takes all that time to figure it out? Sometimes you can sense something but it can take years and many additional experiences to put it all together.”
Exactly! Oh, I wish it didn’t so many hardship and a big LE to connect the missing dots… But late is better than never. I can’t complain too much about my LE, without which, I could never be where I am now— feeling so liberated from the unknown, heavy, lifetime psychological loads/burdens.
“I would have been frozen at 25. All my passwords … have the number 25 in them. It’s a glorious age. 🙂”
It IS a glorious age; I’ve never felt a day older than 25 or even 6… just watch my ridiculous, childish behaviors… 🙈
“I agree. It’s not clear why he has such a hold on her.”
In the book, the author tells the details of their meeting at an embassy social party, how she felt right there at the party, and a few days afterwards. They felt heat with each other, chatted in the elevator afterwards(?), and were eager to see each other, etc (can’t remember clearly)… It makes total sense.
“Now, by contrast, think about the scene in Damage where the Juliette Binoche character introduces herself to the Jeremy Irons character. You can totally understand how his life will never be the same.”
With that pair of mysterious, confident (nonaggressive, no-longing), seductive (non-greedy) eyes, no one would remain the same after seeing them, including me, let alone “vulnerable” Jeremy Irons!
“I’m not sure. The facts you’re describing are actually more interesting than the ones in the movie.”
In the book, her grownup sons were absent. One reviews says that the movie changes make her chosen affair worse, more irresponsible as a mother, perhaps trying to amplify the immorality of such an affair.
“Hmmm … I think of “partner” as sharing the responsibility.”
“partner”⁉️ Do you have an idea that, by compassion with the West, especially American women, how little power/influence/“rights” Eastern women have in their Macho culture? Let’s not go into that huge topic. The word “equal partner” would sound alien to those unequalized women just about in every domain of life….
“I mean … you described two good-looking, slightly femmy guys in a clothing store. It’s not a big leap. 🙂”
“Slightly”? LEG is more feminine than any BTS boys; WHG is, too. I see your point; definitely possible!
“They’re all yours. 🙂”
Only for my eyes, like Vitamin A. If I touch them, they may fall apart like a delicate cake in the window display…
“I’d pay MONEY to hear him deliver that line. 🙂”
Ah, the second time you said it❗️Do you know why you want to hear it so badly, instead of delivering it yourself to your big crush/Glimmer?
[“Your Ladyship, are you giving advice to a middle-aged Auntie to seduce male, flowery, cupcake like shop assistants❓”]
“Yes 🙂”
If I try, I’d feel like going through Dante’s Inferno… unthinkable 😓 , impossible 😓 I’m not a ♋️ 🦊 … I’m a 🐦🔥 that 🦊 or 🐺 cannot catch… 🪽 🪽
“They might have been wearing nametags. Or you could ask, “What’s your name? You’ve been so helpful I want to make sure you’ll be here tomorrow when I bring my clothes in.” 🙂”
No, they have no name tags. I just ignored WHG this afternoon on purpose…. he looked a bit hurt…
”Yes, you would. 🙂”
Maybe with WHG, not LEG. He looks like a flowery girl with that long eyelashes, delicacy and shyness… 🧐
“That outfit does sound atrocious. 🙂”
Right then and there, my glimmer for him dimmed! Such a beautiful face wearing a baseball cap, fat jeans, and over long sweater shirt! Yesterday, he was in black fitting shirt, black skinny jeans, black wavy hair, black sexy eyes… Ohlala…
“I thought these were small glimmers ?”
These two are prettier and more feminine than Romeo, Cutie Joe, B&B Receiptionist, even BTS boys — g10; but not as deep/spiritual as Dimash…. My glimmer for them needs to stay below G5.
The 2nd-hand store is reselling modern clothing, for people under 25; I can’t wear any of them even if they are given to me.
Marcia,
This is the poem. In its original COO tongue, it could set one’s bones shiver… the book, “The Golden Lotus” was written around 1610.
*****
The Golden Lotus
When wealth has taken wing, the streets
seem desolate.
The strains of flute and stringed zither are heard no more.
The brave long sword has lost its terror; its splendor is tarnished.
The precious lute is broken, faded its
golden star.
The marble stairs are deserted; only the au-
tumn dew visits them now.
The moon shines lonely where once were dancing feet and merry songs.
The dancers are departed: the singers have
gone elsewhere.
They return no more.
Today they are but ashes in the Western
Tombs.
Beautiful is this maiden; her tender form gives promise of sweet womanhood,
But a two-edged sword lurks between her thighs, whereby destruction comes to
foolish men.
No head falls to that sword: its work is done in secret,
Yet it drains the very marrow from men’s bones.
Lady Snow,
“Now, you understand why so many of us were/are very shy in “chasing /dealing with men❓”
I was joking. I don’t think anyone should chase. Men or women. As you’ve written, it’s a tango. Someone has to take some kind of a lead and it’s usually the man. But the woman should still be doing her part and being receptive. It shouldn’t feel like pushing a boulder up Mt. Everest.
“He declared his love, but even she didn’t believe it and told him that she had a family. His parents were furious and sent him away … But he swore to her that he’d come back after growing up. He went away a few years and came back for her. ”
I’m surprised he came back. He was a teenage boy. They have the attention span of a gnat. 🙂
“… so he dared to defy your ladyship’s order…”
And he will pay for that. 🙂
“It IS a glorious age; I’ve never felt a day older than 25 ”
I don’t feel or look 25. Haven’t in years. 🙂
“With that pair of mysterious, confident (nonaggressive, no-longing), seductive (non-greedy) eyes, no one would remain the same after seeing them, including me, let alone “vulnerable” Jeremy Irons!”
I think there’s a recognition. After that initial meeting, when she calls his office and all he asks is where he should meet her, it all makes sense. They don’t need to discuss the situation. They both know what’s going to happen.
““partner”⁉️ Do you have an idea that, by compassion with the West, especially American women, how little power/influence/“rights” Eastern women have in their Macho culture?”
You keep going back to your COO. I’m not from your COO. I don’t know its traditions. To me … in the West, which is where you and I live … both people are having the affair. I use the word “partner” because it indicates both the man and woman are responsible for their decision to enter the affair.
““Slightly”? LEG is more feminine than any BTS boys; WHG is, too. I see your point; definitely possible!”
I thought you didn’t like the BTS boys.
“If I touch them, they may fall apart like a delicate cake in the window display…”
If you think they are that delicate, how do they get your engine running? It doesn’t sound like they can drive the car. 🙂
“Do you know why you want to hear it so badly, instead of delivering it yourself to your big crush/Glimmer?”
Who am I going to say it to? Plus, I think a woman telling a man she’s going to terrify him … is a weird thing to say.
“I just ignored WHG this afternoon on purpose…. he looked a bit hurt…”
That’s a good tactic. Be nice one day; ignore him the next. 🙂
“Yesterday, he was in black fitting shirt, black skinny jeans, black wavy hair, black sexy eyes… Ohlala…”
I’d have to see it. I’m not a fan of skinny jeans. Can you sneak a photo the next time you see him? 🙂
“These two are prettier and more feminine than Romeo, Cutie Joe, B&B Receiptionist, even BTS boys — g10; but not as deep/spiritual as Dimash…. My glimmer for them needs to stay below G5.”
I’m confused. You feel a glimmer level-10 for the guys at the clothing store? I thought these were low-level glimmers and just for fun. If you feel a level-10 glimmer … mayday! Red flag! Stay away! I haven’t had an initial level-10 since my last big LO.
Miss Marcia,
“I was joking. I don’t think anyone should chase.”
Next time you joke, give me a big of hint; otherwise, I might drop my jaw and blush your ladyship…
“Men or women. As you’ve written, it’s a tango. Someone has to take some kind of a lead and it’s usually the man. But the woman should still be doing her part and being receptive. It shouldn’t feel like pushing a boulder up Mt. Everest.”
I agree. The relationship tango skills are very, very hard to master, particularly for the dancer with different cultural, social, spiritual and personal background. But instinctive drives ignore all that…
“I’m surprised he came back. He was a teenage boy. They have the attention span of a gnat. 🙂”
Millions felt the same way as you do. My French, old-fashioned Godmother could not stomach it…. She doesn’t like Macron.
“And he will pay for that. 🙂”
I can’t wait to see how he’s going to pay for it… 🫢
“I don’t feel or look 25. Haven’t in years. 🙂”
I don’t look 25 at all but felt like 6 or 7 during the last LE… 🙈
“I think there’s a recognition. After that initial meeting, when she calls his office and all he asks is where he should meet her, it all makes sense. They don’t need to discuss the situation. They both know what’s going to happen.”
I know, that’s astronomical recognition without words… and she’s so sure that he’d just go along… and she’s so unapologetic about her desires and reckless pursuit, as she confessed later, at the cost of his wife and his son — her fiancé… I found it’s so hard to condemn her behaviors, as if she were entitled… 🧐
“you keep going back to your COO. I’m not from your COO. I don’t know its traditions. “
I was mainly explain why I tended to use old-fashioned words or outdated concepts. Even with awareness, it’s hard to erase all one’s cultural, social, and mental conditioning, especially morality related matters…
“To me … in the West, which is where you and I live … both people are having the affair. I use the word “partner” because it indicates both the man and woman are responsible for their decision to enter the affair.”
I agree with you or concepts of this era, on the intellectual level, it’s not always visceral yet. One’s mental habit is hardest to change.
“I thought you didn’t like the BTS boys.”
I like them alright and their dancing style. But their eyes appear shallow or vain to me, Jimin is better. These two’s faces are physically prettier, objectively.
“If you think they are that delicate, how do they get your engine running? It doesn’t sound like they can drive the car. 🙂”
I rarely needed others to get my engine running, I’m my own “pilot”…. WHG looks like he can drive a car, not LEG, he’s a flowery cake in the window… I’m now surprised that I even spoke with him 3 days ago!
“Who am I going to say it to?”
Is this your self image/confidence? If you play like a pro, like Binoche, wouldn’t the other side be fueled by your eyes that could speak?
“Plus, I think a woman telling a man she’s going to terrify him … is a weird thing to say.”
What is “weird” here? 🤔 wording? attitude? social scripts? something more affectionate or seductive to say/tease? But your LO was/is not usually your friend, so perhaps not teasing…
“That’s a good tactic. Be nice one day; ignore him the next. 🙂”
It’s not tactic. I was supposed to talk with the other assistant who had the receipt of the clothes and I didn’t want WHG to sense any of my “nervousness” (after gossiping so much with you and the entire LwL). But when I glanced at his side face and saw a bit of upsetting expression, I felt rude and unkind.
“I’d have to see it. I’m not a fan of skinny jeans. Can you sneak a photo the next time you see him? 🙂”
😆 listen to Marcia’s unique advice! No way I could sneak a picture of him, he always stands at the door welcoming every customer, eyeing you from top to bottom… He has a frame of those skinny teenage, so looked ridiculous in those boggy jeans and gigantic sweater shirt. LEG has a fuller body but also slim. Other two male assistants look pleasant and much more masculine.
“I’m confused. You feel a glimmer level-10 for the guys at the clothing store? I thought these were low-level glimmers and just for fun.”
You forgot that we talked about their object “g” and my subjective “G” assessment. BTS is g6 my G for them is G3. Dimash is g10, my G for him is G5~G7 (increased after the dream). This pair is g10, and my G is G5~G6 from the first moment of encountering to the following 24 hours, which I knew I had to reduce somehow.
“ If you feel a level-10 glimmer … mayday! Red flag! Stay away! I haven’t had an initial level-10 since my last big LO”
These two are literally showcase BOYS, my G5 was superficial for my eyes: on the 2nd day, WHG’s appearing sharply reduced LEG to g7, then yesterday, WHG’s ugly outfit reduced his glimmer to g7. And my G for either/both is G4. They are 1 degree higher than BTS, because I spoke with both…
Do you understand my appraisal system better now for glimmer/Glimmer? 🤭
I watched Bisset’s Karenina, her face fits that Anna well. But they let the Superman to play Vronsky; now I can’t hate the character anymore! 🙄 Superman is not suitable for the role.
Lady Marcia,
https://youtube.com/shorts/p_IH1szMcLQ?si=ImqAuqjtAVLBrIfI — Jack Nicholson’s “the Brush Truth About Beauty” from “Wolf” (1994.)
Opps, typo: the Brutal Truth about Beauty
Ah, the days of 25 years old 😍 — https://youtu.be/fBCGLdNkLNM?si=E0gVzylG_ZcJsMXn — My Beauty! |DQ
Lady Snow,
“Jack Nicholson’s “the Brutal ruth About Beauty” from “Wolf” (1994.)”
That’s a great speech. Only Jack Nicholson could deliver it and not make you want to slap him. 🙂 I like the two of them in that movie. It’s not a great movie but they’re fun to watch together.
“Ah, the days of 25 years old 😍 — https://youtu.be/fBCGLdNkLNM?si=E0gVzylG_ZcJsMXn — My Beauty! |DQ”
Which one is Dimash? The lead singer? He looks 15! 🙂
Those young women are beautiful. You have that plump face when you’re young. All the baby fat and dewy skin. You look like a ripe peach. 🙂
Lady Marcia,
“That’s a great speech. Only Jack Nicholson could deliver it and not make you want to slap him. 🙂 “
This morning I woke up with this clip on my YT home page.. Ah, synchronicity — it’s the thing I’ve been trying to phrase and Nicholson is the most convincingly man in the world to deliver it! 😃
“I like the two of them in that movie. It’s not a great movie but they’re fun to watch together.”
I haven’t seen that movie, and the two are enduringly watchable in their movies, respectively.
“Which one is Dimash? The lead singer? He looks 15! 🙂”
Both young Asian men and women routinely look at least 10 years younger, compared to their contemporaries in the West. He was 24 (a year after he became famous in2017) in the clip, which only caught my eyes yesterday, I didn’t even recognize him in such a casual hair and clothing style.
I haven’t watched all his singing yet, and they’re dominantly serious, spiritual, sad, melancholy, or touching with spiritual or poetic lyrics. But this piece is so light and fun, he looked so earnestly wooing and then genuinely joyful… I’ll see how he looks like in 2 weeks…
All the boys in the clip are sweet, innocent, kind…so cute! They’re all sweet, “pure”, more appealing than BTS boys — look more vain to my eyes…
“Those young women are beautiful. You have that plump face when you’re young. All the baby fat and dewy skin. You look like a ripe peach. 🙂”
They look so delicious, innocent, and sweet… probably in their early 20s as well.
Snow,
“All the boys in the clip are sweet, innocent, kind…so cute! They’re all sweet, “pure”, more appealing than BTS boys — look more vain to my eyes…”
You like ’em young, don’t you? 🙂 They looked way too young to me. Cherubic. Which does nothing for me. 🙂 I think the BTS boys are kind of cute. They’re fun, but I’m not a mega-fan.
Miss Snow,
“Next time you joke, give me a big of hint; otherwise, I might drop my jaw and blush your ladyship…”
If I put a smiling emoji after the sentence, I’m joking.
“I agree. The relationship tango skills are very, very hard to master, particularly for the dancer with different cultural, social, spiritual and personal background. But instinctive drives ignore all that…”
I’m not entirely sure what you’re referring to, but I don’t think they’re hard to master. You make a move, they make a move. Or vice versa. But if they’re not doing a good portion of the dance … it’s probably best not to bother.
” She doesn’t like Macron.”
There was some video that came out of them exiting a plane maybe a month ago and it looked like she’d hit him. People were worried he was being abused.
“I can’t wait to see how he’s going to pay for it… 🫢”
It’s probably not worth our effort. Better to focus our attention on other dudes. 🙂
“I know, that’s astronomical recognition without words… and she’s so sure that he’d just go along… and she’s so unapologetic about her desires and reckless pursuit”
I didn’t see it as a “pursuit.” She didn’t “chase” him. She made one phone call. And he knew exactly why she called and asked where and when they were meeting. That’s what I’d all a dance. She made the first move; he made the next. It’s very mutual. Which is what you want.
“I like them alright and their dancing style. But their eyes appear shallow or vain to me, Jimin is better. ”
I just think they’re fun to watch. And Jimin is cute.
“WHG looks like he can drive a car, not LEG, he’s a flowery cake in the window … ”
The way you described them … I don’t know if they can get the job done. 🙂 (I’m being silly.)
“What is “weird” here? 🤔 wording? attitude? social scripts? something more affectionate or seductive to say/tease? But your LO was/is not usually your friend, so perhaps not teasing…”
Yes, the wording is awkward. And … maybe it is a social script. If there’s fear to be brought to the table … the man would do that. That’s why Emma likes the Greg Wise character. Her husband is safe.
” No way I could sneak a picture of him, he always stands at the door welcoming every customer, eyeing you from top to bottom”
If he’s at the door, can’t you maybe go across the street and take the picture surreptitiously ? 🙂
“Do you understand my appraisal system better now for glimmer/Glimmer? 🤭”
It’s too complicated, my dear. 🙂
Idk. For me, it’s on a 1-10 scale. It needs to be at least a 7 for me to get off my butt to do anything about it (i.e. talk to the guy).
I assumed those guys at the clothing store were just cute and you were enjoying watching them and interacting with them. Maybe a level 5. We weren’t taking them seriously, right?
“But they let the Superman to play Vronsky; now I can’t hate the character anymore! 🙄 Superman is not suitable for the role.”
I agree. He’s totally wrong for the part. Too American. Not sophisticated enough.
There’s a movie version with Keira Knightley as Anna that was made in 2012. The guy playing Vronksy wasn’t right for the part in that, either. It’s a tricky role to cast because he has to be a bit of a cad but not completely. I mean, it’s implied he’s had other affairs. And he pursues Kitty and then tosses her aside once Anna shows up. So in the beginning, the reader/viewer isn’t totally sure if his pursuit of Anna is just a game for him.
Miss Marcia,
“You like ’em young, don’t you? 🙂 They looked way too young to me. Cherubic. Which does nothing for me.”
I did not make myself clear: I like the singer, boys, girls, kids in the clip as if I was enjoying a movie or a clip of the reality, with its music, scenery, characters, narratives… nothing personal. It reminds me my teenage time and youth….
Putting in another way, I find I can’t relate with them — Dimash, BTS, the band, the girls, on a personal level; what could I talk/discuss with them⁉️. Driven by their hormones, they just want to get together, pass flowers, share ice cream, drinks, and meals under the blue sky and peach trees… which I’d love, too, do with right people…
As you say, they look Cherubic, but not sexy (yet)… I think the active kid inside me, (everyone has one or buried one within) likes to watch and listen to them.
🙂 I think the BTS boys are kind of cute. They’re fun, but I’m not a mega-fan.
I think I only watched 3-4 clips from BTS and don’t have even one song, melody remembered. I got bored quickly with them.
I walked over 5 miles today under the beautiful, hot sun, in the beat/tempo of “my beauty” to tutor. On the way, I sold one piece of short, black, velvet dress to the shop, LEG and WHG were both absent. I gave the rest unsold pieces to a charity store 5 blocks away. I don’t want to see them in my home anymore….
Miss Marcia,
“If I put a smiling emoji after the sentence, I’m joking.”
Thanks in advance! If I use red ❓, or ⁉️, that means answers are optional but welcome. Of course, they weigh more than a black “?“.
“I’m not entirely sure what you’re referring to, but I don’t think they’re hard to master. “
Well, if three views of two parties: views on world, on others, and on selves are very different, forget about tango together❗️ it would be like tango mixes with disco. Regarding this, cultural, spiritual, personal similarities or discrepancies make huge differences, eg. shared language, sensitivities, sensibilities, cultural /intellectual /creative passion/hobbies, tastes, and activities…
“You make a move, they make a move. Or vice versa. But if they’re not doing a good portion of the dance … it’s probably best not to bother.”
Are you still talking about dating or getting together for a long term? I’m not talking about steps of dating, but building a long-term, meaningful tango through which harmony, love, beauty, mental connection truly shine.
“There was some video that came out of them exiting a plane maybe a month ago and it looked like she’d hit him. People were worried he was being abused.”
There are tons of rumors about them, for people can’t bear, or can’t get over to see something so out of norms. Right now, Macron has agreed to let a US court (?) take scientific/medical data from Brigitta to prove she’s a woman, not a transgender woman, as a socialite has accused her to be and thousands have believed so…
“It’s probably not worth our effort. Better to focus our attention on other dudes. 🙂”
Who are other dudes in your mind? 🤔 Without MJ 💦 🦎 and his whole “clan”, where does her ladyship get her “entertainment” resource⁉️ Most of others are suffering LE’s infection, one kind or another, lightly or seriously; so I thought our light-hearted 🏓 🏓 chats could distract some ❤️🔥 , including Sir 🦎 himself….
“I didn’t see it as a “pursuit.” She didn’t “chase” him.
Later in the movie, she admitted, “why do you think I’d marry (or “go out with) Martin (his son)?! So I can be close to you… ” She planned it even before he met her. I vaguely remember she said she fell for him by watching him talking on TV once.
The movie is not to target at her selfish desires and actions, but ask why, with a cool wife, happy family, successful career… he would fall for her and bring such a huge destruction to so many lives‼️
“She made one phone call. And he knew exactly why she called and asked where and when they were meeting. That’s what I’d call a dance. She made the first move; he made the next. It’s very mutual. Which is what you want.”
I think that’s what you’d want, not ME… No, I don’t want such a secret/illicit “mutual dance”, with my nerves perked up all the time without any stability. She is basically sleeping with Father and Son at the same time/day — he cheats on his wife, she cheats on his son; what kind of fatherly love he has for his own son? What kinds of psychology in both their mind?
“The way you described them … I don’t know if they can get the job done. 🙂 (I’m being silly.)
I would seriously worry about that, too, especially with LEG❗️😄 Now, I’m not interested in at all to find out…
“Yes, the wording is awkward.”
I’m sure one, especially your ladyship, can find appropriate wording to cheekily “terrify” her amorous “prey”.
“And … maybe it is a social script. If there’s fear to be brought to the table … the man would do that. “
I still don’t understand why fear needs to be brought in the affectionate, amorous dynamics/acts⁉️ Who loves fear❓What a twisted psyche 🤔
“That’s why Emma likes the Greg Wise character. Her husband is safe.”
Again, what’s wrong with being “safe”? Why would anyone want unsafe stimulus in matter of love affairs⁉️ In many cultures, people would pay high price for (physical, psychological) safety and peace…
Here under peace and general safety, lovers/people chase heightened sense of danger, why❓WHY⁉️ My physical heart cannot take instability, unsettlement, invisible but sensed dangers… It would flutter…
”If he’s at the door, can’t you maybe go across the street and take the picture surreptitiously ? 🙂”
He stands inside the door, there is a thick glass in between. It would be blurry. Why do I need to take a picture of him?
“For me, it’s on a 1-10 scale. It needs to be at least a 7 for me to get off my butt to do anything about it (i.e. talk to the guy).”
Yes, your G level has to be 7, the same here. That’s why my G level for all the boys we have been talking about is under 6. Dimash’s level has reached G6/G7 only due to the 💭 — I interacted with him in it, as real as it could be to my 🧠….
“I assumed those guys at the clothing store were just cute and you were enjoying watching them and interacting with them. “
As usual, you’re quite insightful here‼️ Otherwise, what’s real “vitamin A” for my eyes and spice for my routine existence❓Not quite interacting with them yet…
“Maybe a level 5. We weren’t taking them seriously, right?”
No, your Ladyship 🤗. Level 4~5, so perhaps G4.5 🤣 — don’t’ forget that I still add 10~15 2-digit numbers by heart without any calculator — grading student’s assignments with 10-15 portions.
“I agree. He’s totally wrong for the part. Too American. Not sophisticated enough.”
Superman is too sweet and caring to be Vronsky, who is a European sophisticated playboy.
“There’s a movie version with Keira Knightley as Anna that was made in 2012. The guy playing Vronksy wasn’t right for the part in that, either.
💩! I can’t stand that Vronsky! He looks so cheesy without substance inside — no charm or sophistication. Knightley is just okay, a bit too young and too thin to be Anna. Bisset and her vulnerability, beauty, elegance are much better to be Karenina.
“It’s a tricky role to cast because he has to be a bit of a cad but not completely. I mean, it’s implied he’s had other affairs. And he pursues Kitty and then tosses her aside once Anna shows up. “
Perhaps Tolstoy wanted to depict how extraordinary Anna is that she can catch a playboy, such as Vronsky, in a brink of eyes… but how to tame and retain a playboy by anyone❓
“So in the beginning, the reader/viewer isn’t totally sure if his pursuit of Anna is just a game for him.”
Yes, indeed! that’s my impression and view ever since I read in COO tongue in the last century… Ah, I’m already 286 years young…. 🐦🔥
Miss Snow,
“It reminds me my teenage time and youth….”
You know what I watch that reminds me of being a teenager? I watch young people — in their 20s and 30s — who have YouTube channels and they watch music videos from when I was young. They’re “reaction” videos. Sometimes the people (if they’re young women) will shriek at the hot male singers from my youth. And I think: Yes, that’s the reaction I had when I was young, too. 🙂 I get a kick out of watching them.
“Driven by their hormones, they just want to get together, pass flowers, share ice cream, drinks, and meals under the blue sky and peach trees…”
Wouldn’t it be wonderful if this is all we had to worry about? 🙂
“As you say, they look Cherubic, but not sexy ”
They are definitely not sexy. 🙂
“I think I only watched 3-4 clips from BTS and don’t have even one song, melody remembered. I got bored quickly with them.”
I like the song “Boy with Luv.”
5 miles … that’s a long walk. Are your legs sore?
“Thanks in advance! If I use red ❓, or ⁉️, that means answers are optional but welcome. ”
Ok.
“Are you still talking about dating or getting together for a long term? I’m not talking about steps of dating …”
Oh, ok. I was talking about the early stages of dating.
“Right now, Macron has agreed to let a US court (?) take scientific/medical data from Brigitta to prove she’s a woman, not a transgender woman, as a socialite has accused her to be and thousands have believed so…”
That’s ridiculous. She shouldn’t even dignify that in any way.
“Who are other dudes in your mind? ”
We have to find new ones! And if none appear for a while … we wait! 🙂
“Later in the movie, she admitted, “why do you think I’d marry (or “go out with) Martin (his son)?! So I can be close to you… ”
I remember her saying this. But she definitely wants to marry the son. I don’t think it’s just to be near the father.
“She planned it even before he met her. I vaguely remember she said she fell for him by watching him talking on TV once.”
This I don’t remember. I think she started dating the son and then met the father. And she makes it clear to the father that they can’t be together. She doesn’t have the kind of relationship with the father that could translate to “Could you pass me the salt?” at the breakfast table.
“The movie is not to target at her selfish desires and actions, but ask why, with a cool wife, happy family, successful career… he would fall for her and bring such a huge destruction to so many lives‼️”
He’s alive. For that short period of time, he’s alive. Obviously, it’s a hideous ending. He’s alone, only with that big picture of her in his house.
“I think that’s what you’d want, not ME… No, I don’t want such a secret/illicit “mutual dance”, with my nerves perked up all the time without any stability. ”
No, I have zero interest in dating a man and having an affair with his father. 🙂 I meant that they understand each other. Like I wrote in the earlier post: There’s a recognition. They kind of circumvent all the usual, socially appropriate steps of courtship (for lack of a better word). It’s just: Game on.
“She is basically sleeping with Father and Son at the same time/day — he cheats on his wife, she cheats on his son; what kind of fatherly love he has for his own son? What kinds of psychology in both their mind?”
Well, they’re selfish. They want what they want.
“I would seriously worry about that, too, especially with LEG❗️😄 Now, I’m not interested in at all to find out…”
I think you’d be driving the car if you got with one of them. (I’m teasing.) 🙂
“I’m sure one, especially your ladyship, can find appropriate wording to cheekily “terrify” her amorous “prey”.”
I don’t really want to terrify someone. Do a memorable job they can’t get out of their head, maybe. 🙂
“I still don’t understand why fear needs to be brought in the affectionate, amorous dynamics/acts⁉️ Who loves fear❓What a twisted psyche 🤔”
It’s not. It’s very common. I’ve already written this, but I’ve read several times that going to an amusement park can help increase attraction on a date. The thrill of the rides gets people riled up.
“Again, what’s wrong with being “safe”? ”
OMG, he’s so dull. And she’s so awful to him, and he puts up with it.
“Why would anyone want unsafe stimulus in matter of love affairs⁉️ ”
I think you’re equating “unsafe” with some serial killer who would cut you up into tiny pieces. It’s nowhere near that level of danger. There’s just a hint of it. Why do you think women love rock stars? They seem like they’re about to do something they’re not supposed to.
” My physical heart cannot take instability, unsettlement, invisible but sensed dangers… It would flutter…”
That’s what you want. 🙂
“Why do I need to take a picture of him?”
So I can see what he looks like in his skinny jeans. 🙂
” Dimash’s level has reached G6/G7 only due to the 💭 — I interacted with him in it, as real as it could be to my 🧠….”
Does he look older now? You wrote that video you posted was from 2017. Based on that video … he looks so young … I’d be worried about getting arrested. 🙂
“I assumed those guys at the clothing store were just cute and you were enjoying watching them and interacting with them. “
As usual, you’re quite insightful here‼️”
Good. We were on the same page. Just having some nice eye candy.
” grading student’s assignments with 10-15 portions.”
Do you do all those decimal points when you grade students?
“Superman is too sweet and caring to be Vronsky, who is a European sophisticated playboy.”
I agree. Vronsky is essential a ne’er do well. Army commission because he’s from a wealthy family. Part of the upper class social scene, and they’re all so bored, they just have affairs.
“💩! I can’t stand that Vronsky! He looks so cheesy without substance inside — no charm or sophistication. Knightley is just okay, a bit too young and too thin to be Anna. ”
They both seem too young, although the actors themselves were about the age of the characters in the book. They don’t have enough gravitas.
I thought Jude Law as Anna’s husband was very good. He manages to make you feel sorry for him. A lot of other portrayals I’ve seen just make him into an ogre.
“Bisset and her vulnerability, beauty, elegance are much better to be Karenina.”
I agree. She seems like a grown woman who men would risk something for.
“Yes, indeed! that’s my impression and view ”
It’s kind of implied he may just be toying with her. Just another woman in a long line of them.
Don’t be mad … I couldn’t get through the book. SO. MANY. PAGES. about Levin’s farm.
Miss Marcia,
“You know what I watch that reminds me of being a teenage? … And I think: Yes, that’s the reaction I had when I was young, too. 🙂 I get a kick out of watching them.”
The time of your period was soooo different from mine… there was no comparison at all, except hormone and crushes that were taboo topics…
[Driven by their hormones, they just want to get together, pass flowers, share ice cream, drinks, and meals under the blue sky and peach trees…”]
“Wouldn’t it be wonderful if this is all we had to worry about? 🙂”
The scenes in the song of “My Beauty” is my imagined youth time… how it could and would be… no such a peachy scene took place in my youth…
“I like the song “Boy with Luv.”
I have to check that out.
“5 miles … that’s a long walk. Are your legs sore?”
Nope, I walk regularly and fast from 4-6 miles a day if I have time — just not taking subway but walking to my destination.
“Oh, ok. I was talking about the early stages of dating.”
Have you seen any first date in that level of soul/Glimmer colliding? I think it’s due to the effect of tasing “forbidden fruit”.
“That’s ridiculous. She shouldn’t even dignify that in any way.”
That’s my exact reaction: why Macron even bother to answer/agree such a procedure⁉️
[“Who are other dudes in your mind? ”]
“We have to find new ones! And if none appear for a while … we wait! 🙂”
With us 👯♀️ Tik Tok on the stage, no singleton dude is daring to emerge from behind the velvet curtains… They’d run to Jupiter asking for God’s mercy… 🤭
“I remember her saying this. “But she definitely wants to marry the son. I don’t think it’s just to be near the father.”
She definitely said something along that line — be closer to him through Martin. (I’ll check my DVD again, I have Louis Malle’s whole set). Yes she also likes the sweet son, but not intensified lusting for the devilishly sexy father.
Here, I might remember incorrectly. She was watching his talk on TV later after their several encounters. He was a MP.
“I think she started dating the son and then met the father. And she makes it clear to the father that they can’t be together. She doesn’t have the kind of relationship with the father that could translate to “Could you pass me the salt?” at the breakfast table.”
Correct. He wants a “norm/logistic” of a secret affair, but she wants playing by ear. She’s not interested even in a regulated affair.
“He’s alive. For that short period of time, he’s alive. Obviously, it’s a hideous ending. He’s alone, only with that big picture of her in his house.”
That’s the question one would ask: why do you need to take forbidden fruits to fell ALIVE⁉️ Are human beings born with such a psychology or it is caused by social/cultural conditions❓
Proust even believed that the imaginations of being with a lover could send a man to the Moon, but not long. Then, a bit more realistic temptation, then more imaginations. It’s limerence, with his knowing the term.
“No, I have zero interest in dating a man and having an affair with his father. 🙂 I meant that they understand each other. “
They understand each other on the pair-bonding level… they didn’t talk a lot with each other due to their extreme unavailability.
“Like I wrote in the earlier post: There’s a recognition. They kind of circumvent all the usual, socially appropriate steps of courtship (for lack of a better word). It’s just: Game on.”
I hate the phrase: playing game! Ever since I heard the story of “Hunchback of Norte Dome” (red by Dad), I thought/believed dallying at someone’ heart is the cruelest crime in the world. But these two are defying all morality and social norms to the extreme… — nerve rocking/raking‼️
“I think you’d be driving the car if you got with one of them. (I’m teasing.) 🙂”
I need to drive a small truck loaded one or two dozens of them… so far, only 2 appeared in my slight… not promising…🫤
“I don’t really want to terrify someone. Do a memorable job they can’t get out of their head, maybe. 🙂”
In my previous message, the word “terrify” had quotation marks. Then why it’s okay for Grey Wise to “terrify” Emma? How about sweetly & sexily “terrifying” before fondling your pro and doing a memorable JOB — sounding so laborious…⁉️It’s so psychological incorrect to treat it as a performance or a task… 🙄
“It’s not. It’s very common. I’ve already written this, but I’ve read several times that going to an amusement park can help increase attraction on a date. The thrill of the rides gets people riled up.”
I still feel that it’s just you and some who strongly hold this view. It’s a psychological dilemma of living in peaceful time…
When people live under wars or constant political turmoils just want to simply “peachy” time. They just want to sunk deeply in their sweet bed without worrying some secret policemen who could just knocking at your door anytime and check on your “safety”. Last time in 2015 when I visited my parents, they had to register in the community about my visit and stay for 2 weeks, because I have a foreign passport.
“OMG, he’s so dull. And she’s so awful to him, and he puts up with it.”
Of course, Flaubert wanted to create an extremely sample to carry his message. But in reality, Emma’s hubby type is uncountable… what happens if Binoche married Irons in “Damage”, let’s say after he getting divorce from his wife, and she from his son?
“I think you’re equating “unsafe” with some serial killer who would cut you up into tiny pieces. It’s nowhere near that level of danger. There’s just a hint of it. “
If I have to worry that my dashing partner could possibly sneak out for an affair whenever he can, where would be my sense of “safety” or peace?
“Why do you think women love rock stars? They seem like they’re about to do something they’re not supposed to.”
Count me out! Rock Stars, particularly ones from the West, would be the last specie men I’d go to…. I never needed such a stimulus.
”That’s what you want. 🙂”
I had them, feeling so out of control. Then, I had PVC in 2021, feeling terrible, no fun.
“So I can see what he looks like in his skinny jeans. 🙂”
You’d be disappointed by its volume….The more I talk about them here, the less I want to go back to look at them or interact with them. I find out whoever checks in customer’s clothes would have their 1st name printed on the picking-up receipt. So I need to go there on Sat/Sun to have LEG check in my clothes… 🤣
”Do you do all those decimal points when you grade students?”
Down to 0.5, so 8.5 or 13.5, nothing less! 😒
“I agree. Vronsky is essential a ne’er do well. Army commission because he’s from a wealthy family. Part of the upper class social scene, and they’re all so bored, they just have affairs.”
I used to think the upper class was noble… Then tons of literature and real cases I heard completely changed my views…. I think no one should be idle whether having wealth or not… otherwise, all sorts of idle diseases would breathe in their souls…. the biggest one— boredom.
“I thought Jude Law as Anna’s husband was very good. He manages to make you feel sorry for him. A lot of other portrayals I’ve seen just make him into an ogre.”
That’s an acting skill! Normally, her husband is repulsed.
“I agree. She seems like a grown woman who men would risk something for.”
Yes, men would to risk something for her and to protect her. She has natural vulnerability/sensitivity hanging on her face. The same with Irons.
“Don’t be mad … I couldn’t get through the book. SO. MANY. PAGES. about Levin’s farm.”
I read it in COO tongue ages ago and then listened to the entire audio book in its English version, when I was walking my Friday in the park before 2015. It took a week or so to finish.
“Does he look older now? You wrote that video you posted was from 2017. Based on that video … he looks so young … I’d be worried about getting arrested. 🙂”
Dimash looks so much older more, more serious and less sweet… I don’t even like his expression in this song (Feb. 2025, less than 1 min.)
— https://youtu.be/Mb_2rWk2kcY?si=MD9od0o1w6oR34xR
Here is him from 2012 to 2025, singing the same melody (1:17 min.) He’s been “beautified” a lot! Look at his teeth in 18…
https://youtu.be/tDvU-pjq4bI?si=5V4ma9wfl7rV–yl
There is a rumor saying that he had a double-eyelid surgery.
In my dream, he looked like in this one (2021) with the same hairstyle in casual clothes (whitish shirt, jeans?) — https://youtu.be/8mM-bp5PB34?si=1xFcRsaG1e22r7oJ
I like him in burgundy costume.
Typo:
“The time of your YOUTH period was soooo different from mine… “
Yes she also likes the sweet son, but not as much as the intensified lust for the devilishly sexy father.
“ It’s limerence, without his [Proust} knowing the term.”
Just remembered: she had seen the father before they met the first time at the party, because she recognized him immediately and walked up to him, while he had no idea who she was.
Binoche was so mysterious and chilling that the wife and daughter instantly did not like or trust her… I’d be terrified by those beautiful, haunting eyes…
Just thought of an analogy of innate desires for forbidden fruit: have you ever seen any two-year old toddlers, stamping floor and screaming, “I want another Mommy’s nipples, now, now, and now‼️” 😉
After over 6 miles of waking in total, I also got Covid and Flu shot yesterday evening, so now I’m feeling sick, as if having a flu… luckily, I don’t have to work, due to Jewish New Year.
Upon the Heights
Yone Noguchi
1875 –1947
And victor of life and silence,
I stood upon the Heights; triumphant,
With upturned eyes, I stood,
And smiled unto the sun, and sang
A beautifully sad farewell unto the dying day.
And my thoughts and the eve gathered
Their serpentine mysteries around me,
My thoughts like alien breezes,
The eve like a fragrant legend.
My feeling was that I stood as one
Serenely poised for flight, as a muse
Of golden melody and lofty grace.
Yea, I stood as one scorning the swords
And wanton menace of the cities.
The sun had heavily sunk into the seas beyond,
And left me a tempting sweet and twilight.
The eve with trailing shadows westward
Swept on, and the lengthened shadows of trees
Disappeared: how silently the songs of silence
Steal into my soul! And still I stood
Among the crickets, in the beauteous profundity
Sung by stars; and I saw me
Softly melted into the eve. The moon
Slowly rose: my shadow on the ground
Dreamily began a dreamy roam,
And I upward smiled silent welcome.
To an Unknown Poet
Yone Noguchi
1875 –1947
When I am lost in the deep body of the
mist on the hill,
The world seems built with me as its
pillar!
Am I the god upon the face of the deep, deepless
deepness in the Beginning?
I Hear You Call, Pine Tree
Yone Noguchi
1875 –1947
I hear you call, pine tree, I hear you upon the hill, by the silent pond
where the lotus flowers bloom, I hear you call, pine tree.
What is it you call, pine tree, when the rain falls, when the winds
blow, and when the stars appear, what is it you call, pine tree?
I hear you call, pine tree, but I am blind, and do not know how to
reach you, pine tree. Who will take me to you, pine tree?
The Poet
Yone Noguchi
1875 –1947
Out of the deep and the dark,
A sparkling mystery, a shape,
Something perfect,
Comes like the stir of the day:
One whose breath is an odour,
Whose eyes show the road to stars,
The breeze in his [her] face,
The glory of Heaven on his [her] back.
He [she] steps like a vision hung in air,
Diffusing the passion of Eternity;
His [her] abode is the sunlight of morn,
The music of eve [her] his speech:
In his [her] sight,
One shall turn from the dust of the grave,
And move upward to the woodland.
*******
God/Goddess LO has appeared… 🫥
How Near to Fairyland
Yone Noguchi
1875 –1947
The spring warmth steals into me, drying up all the tears of my soul,
And gives me a flight into the vastness,—into a floorless, unroofed reverie-hall.
Lo, such greenness, such velvety greenness, such a heaven without heaven above!
Lo, again, such grayness, such velvety grayness, such an earth without earth below!
My soul sails through the waveless mirror-seas.
Oh, how near to Fairyland!
Blow, blow, gust of wind!
Sweep away my soul-boat against that very shore!
****
No more fairyland, no more reverie shore… 🐦🔥
I signed up for a Latino/a-based app. I know I am not Latina, but I am at heart, and the men are just … right for me. Was on it for a few hours, swiped right on a few people, and the one I thought was a catfisher was actually a real person! He chatted me up early morning (he works early, and I’m an early bird), and we talked for a good hour on the phone, then he decided to drive an hour and a half from his job site to meet me. We had a great three hour date with coffee and beautiful views at a local park.
@MJ,
If you like Latina women, go on the app and try to find one!
@Marcia,
Even though this guy’s bio had nothing on it, I saw that he lived about 45 min away so I took a chance. Was pleasantly surprised that he was who he said he was and had a good voice, and can hold conversations 😉 We’ll see where it goes. Any news on your guy??
💙
LN,
“He chatted me up early morning (he works early, and I’m an early bird), and we talked for a good hour on the phone, then he decided to drive an hour and a half from his job site to meet me. We had a great three hour date with coffee and beautiful views at a local park.”
That sounds really promising. Do you have plans to meet up again?
That’s a good lesson in learning sometimes we can’t be too rigid with rules. Bad profile but it worked out. I’m assuming he had hot pics? 🙂
“Any news on your guy??”
Well … let’s see. Through the site, he messaged me his phone number. And I put it in my phone. Does that count? 🙂
@Marcia, MJ
Wow, you move as fast as molasses, putting that number in your phone 😆
Update: the guy I had a three hour date with was a LIAR. He gave me the perfect date, then when I researched him and confronted him about his wrong age (not 36, 34) he deleted and blocked me. So what did I do? I found the other phone number and screenshot the address and his name and real age and I sent him a nice little creepy text asking if we’ll meet as his house with his parents next week? Lol. Then called him a douche bag. 😄
BUT I will say I have learned my lesson. I met another guy on a different app and I researched BEFORE we talked and thank goodness everything he told me was 100% true. So, gonna go with second guy. If it can’t be verified in public records, IT’S A LIE!
The first best-fake date was through Chispa, and Latino-based site. But I have had better luck on Hinge with meeting actual men locally. To be continued…
💙
Hm, I wonder if there was a wife in there somewhere, too….It’s been a long time since I was single, but it always seemed more comfortable to date people I knew at least a little instead of strangers. Strangers can pull tricks like this!
LN,
“Wow, you move as fast as molasses, putting that number in your phone 😆”
Well, that’s my point. I don’t really want to do it. There is one cute guy who “liked” me, but to look at his picture … there is no way he is 44. It’s probably a scammer.
“Update: the guy I had a three hour date with was a LIAR. He gave me the perfect date, then when I researched him and confronted him about his wrong age (not 36, 34) he deleted and blocked me.”
But isn’t that good? He’s younger. 🙂 (Sorry. Couldn’t help myself.) Why would lie about his age by only 2 years? How did you research him? Just Googled him?
“So what did I do? I found the other phone number and screenshot the address and his name and real age and I sent him a nice little creepy text asking if we’ll meet as his house with his parents next week? Lol. Then called him a douche bag. 😄”
It sounds like he massaged the truth about little things. Why do that? If I’m going to lie, I’m going to make it a whopper. Had he given you a different address ? And you can tell he lives with his parents ?
“So, gonna go with second guy. If it can’t be verified in public records, IT’S A LIE!”
Do you get on those sites that require payment for the searches?
Hi Limerent Nurse,
maybe I missed something, but the only thing he lied about was his age? I mean , lying is bad, I agree, but it doesn’t seem such huge crime that warrants getting his real address etc and calling him names? I mean, he could honestly say now that he might have made himself younger, but you stalked and insulted him plus his parents🙈
Ok, maybe I’m not a pro at the netiquette here, maybe you are right, I‘m just a bit surprised at the strong reaction.
Mila,
But when someone tells the small lies like that, to someone they hardly know … isn’t that a fair sign they are prone to bigger lies which could bite people on the bum further down the line if they choose to trust them?
That said – LN I do agree with Mila that the reaction seems quite big for the level of his lie! Would love to know what more you knew or thought about what he was lying about?!
LAR,
I absolutely agree- of course it’s a sign that he might lie all over the place and I would have pulled out of this contact too, like LN – I just don’t feel comfortable with proceeding to find out someone’s real address and phone number just to taunt him. It seems a bit excessive to me (especially invading the privacy also of his parents), but maybe there’s something I misunderstood, or maybe something I didn’t know about behavior on dating sites , because I have no experience whatsoever, and LN did the right thing to warn him off? But wouldn’t it have been better to warn him off with serious words or contacting the website/app so they warn him off?
LN, you see I have no idea what’s going on in the dating game..
“We had a great three hour date with coffee and beautiful views at a local park.”
LN
That sounds delightful. A 3 hour date with coffee. I’m jealous of anyone getting coffee with a special someone. I wouldn’t even know how to behave if I was out on a date like that. It’s been so long. I’d keep pinching myself just to make sure I wasn’t dreaming. I’m happy it went so well for you.
“If you like Latina women, go on the app and try to find one!”
I do!! What is the name of the app? Thank you for the suggestion. I’ll definitely keep it in mind..
@Serial Limerent,
I didn’t see any records of his name attached ot any other woman other than his parents, thank goodness… but yes, that was my fear too. Now this is why I insist on looking up divorce records first when I find out their name. He didn’t have any divorce record noted. Nasty little liar.
💙
MJ, I’m curious about something. It seems like your lady friend was happy to offer you friendship. Why wasn’t friendship enough?
You were invested in the relationship until you realized that friendship was all she was offering then you got angry with her. I don’t understand why friendship isn’t a worthwhile reason to invest in a relationship.
Perhaps I misunderstood.
Lovisa,
You misunderstood. The story was posted sporadically throughout and you probably missed the update. No biggie..
To summarize, LF and I got into the subject of reasons behind my divorce and I divulged a lot of what led up to it. Including matters I won’t post publicly here.
I figured I could comfortably talk to her about these things because she told me numerous times from before, she doesn’t judge.. But let’s just say she didn’t like what I told her and said she’d rather keep some distance now. So she basically judged me and I fell for the bait. It irritates me but it’s who she is. We still talk but nothing like we did. We have to work together, so I think she’s trying to keep things normal. I guess I made things too awkward. Classic MJ.. 😑
I figured knowing what I know about her (plus a thing she doesn’t know I know about), I would expect a little more understanding on her part, but that’s hardly what went down. I just think it’s cruel that I allowed myself to be vulnerable under the guise of trust because it’s not stuff I can talk about with just anyone. We have to reach a certain level before I’ll go there, so I really was trusting her not to go awol on me for it..
I know she doesn’t outright hate me. She hasn’t blathered about it to anyone far as I know. Her friends still talk to me but she’s also in a different place now too. She has a SO, so my presence isn’t needed or even really wanted.
Hope this clears things up for you..
MJ,
I definitely misunderstood. Thank you for clarifying. For what it’s worth, you already shared some of your mistakes that lead to your divorce, but the LwL community hasn’t gone awol on you.
That’s very sweet of you Ms. Lovisa. Thank you.
That’s why I stick around..
One day writing will become too difficult.
James Sacré
translated from the French by Youmna M. Chamieh
We will no longer be able to think (breathe, words like silence)
Of the very complicated nature of what it is to live.
The poem will be, more and more blind, nothing but words:
No one will be able to truly hear them.
Something else will come in the ruins of time and friendship,
It won’t even be worth saying that we must die,
We will die.
*********
Un jour écrire deviendra trop difficile.
On ne pourra plus penser (respirer, les mots comme du silence)
À la trop grande complication de ce que c’est vivre.
Le poème sera, de plus en plus aveugle, plus rien que des mots :
Personne qui pourra les entendre pour de vrai.
Quelque chose d’autre viendra dans des ruines de temps et d’amitié,
Ce sera même pas la peine de dire qu’il faut mourir,
On mourra.
Two-Blooded
Rolando Kattan
translated from the Spanish by Katherine M. Hedeen & Víctor Rodríguez Núñez
I am a descendent of stillness
and sailors still in motion,
a brew of saltpeter and blackbird song.
In just one bloody wound collide
impatience and calm.
If I fall silent and words ripen
it’s the voice of an olive tree in its quiet seed.
I am the hesitation between hideout and sword,
the yellow in all the world’s traffic lights.
In the future I’ll serve you coffee and worship
you—like an icon—in a picture frame.
***********
A dos sangres
Vengo de una ascendencia de quietud
y marineros todavía en movimiento;
mezclo el salitre del mar con el canto de un mirlo.
En una sola herida de sangre colisiona
la serenidad y el desasosiego.
Si enmudezco y maduran las palabras
es la voz de un olivo en su callada semilla.
Soy la incertidumbre entre el escondite o la espada,
luz amarillenta en los semáforos del mundo,
quiero servir tu café en el futuro o adorarte
—como a un icono—en un portarretrato.
Hi,
just want to report that I’m floored by ChatGPT. It’s probably because I‘m ancient and was hitherto ignorant of its functionality. I only have the free version where chats get erased etc, and have until now only composed one wedding card with it.
I know there was a blog post or something recently? About AI? I haven’t read or participated in, sorry if I rehash something.
I had some minor struggles concerning my friendship with XLO and felt a bit down. Somehow this site doesn’t feel like a safe place for me any more or at the moment , so I made the experiment to unload to ChatGPT, after reading something on reddit about it.
In less than a second it answered with a lot of stuff that absolutely hit the truth, offered insights that I had to gain the hard way in a few well-honed sentences, offered mantras for me and messages to XLO and sounded uncannily empathetic.
Seriously, after a few more detailing and requests from my side there was not much to add to the differentiated advice it was offering. None of my friends would have managed to sound as efficient, intelligent and caring. It’s very scary somehow.
On the upside, I can recommend it to clear some thoughts and get a compressed version of all sorts of views on the matter…
Mila,
First of all, I’m sorry to hear that you don’t always find this place a safe space at the moment, as it should be one for all of us that need it, within reason.
But on your ChatGPT example, that sounds amazing if it’s given you new insight. I think some of the discussion on here was about how AI nearly always shows us empathy – in a way that a human with all their flaws can’t (and can’t be expected to). I gather from training at work that with the paid versions, many AIs now train their empathy style to mimic the user’s own style – to become their ideal companion, in other words! (I wonder how it would analyse my LE, but I am in calm space with it, so won’t go down that rabbit hole now).
My note of caution is that AI is only as good as its training, and as the human wisdom which it has access to. I think it is maybe more neutral and objective than old style Google searching (driven as that is by who pays the most money to advertise). I think AI can be more useful than that. But whatever it tells you as the facts of your situation is just its best guesses based on sum total of the wisdom it has been fed in training. Your and every situation is still unique. But I don’t mean to pour cold water on it; I think any extra tools we can have in the box to help us are good.
I was impressed with CHATGPT when I sought support/answers regarding my LE. I kept the requests narrow (“How can I move past this?” – none of that “Does she really like me?” bunkum) and the plans were detailed and incredibly empathetic.
Even if I don’t always follow them, the presence of a voice that fully understood what it was I was experiencing was genuinely soothing.
Hi LaR, Phil and Serial,
no cold water needed- as much as I was amazed at the lightning-fast results and even made screenshots of the suggestions for me to reread, I was equally creeped out.
For me, it would be enough to get these results and suggestions minus the empathy. It’s kind of creepy and fake to get that kind of empathy from a machine. and I think it’s a bit dangerous. I actually felt compelled to be similarly polite to it😆, and it’s too easy to feel supported and understood while all that happened is a data search, no soul or real empathy involved.
And you can manipulate it with the info you feed it, it won’t doubt you (yet?) like another human being with different experiences.
I still appreciate the results!
I think ChatGPT is more remarkable than the AI from Google, by the way.
Yeah, I’ve been using the AI that comes up with Google. Oftentimes I can’t find anything close to what I’ve Googled for, but the AI will answer the question. Whether it’s right I don’t know! I don’t know where it gets some of its answers from, since the links it gives, don’t always apply. But all the search engines seem to have been taken over by ads and results that have very little in common with the search terms, so the AI is the only place to go. There’s also the Reddit and Quora questions that come up, but the responses to them are usually full of too much judgment or snark to do any good. So I end up purposely trying to get the AI to come up and answer my questions. It can be quite—excuse the term—thoughtful.
To Mila:
I am sorry that you don’t feel safe here, and I hope I have never said anything that makes you uncomfortable. I don’t feel safe here, either. I am uncertain as to whether I will continue posting.
Hi Norma,
I just saw your comment, sorry! I‘m not as active at the site as I‘ve been, although I do check in, but I cannot keep up with comments and it’s a maze here…
No, you never made me feel uncomfortable, please don’t think that!
Maybe it’s just a phase, or maybe it’s because I’m not limerent any more, but I don’t feel I should share my inner stuff here any more. When I post in a public forum, of course there‘s no control over who might read it. That scares me sometimes a lot.
Also, I‘m sometimes a bit sensitive about judgement and comments (but no one here was out of line ever, I want to clarify ! It’s not your fault, it’s me)when I feel misunderstood, and why post on a forum if you don’t want to get judged or commented.
That’s all, and a big part of it might be not limerent any more. It’s a sign that I’m very used to be limerent that I’m still hanging around here, and also a sign that I’m not very good at letting people go (my last limerence was actually caused by that inability), I still wonder about Imho and Bewitched, Lost in Space and federico or LaR because I felt a kinship there, and I’m also glad to hear from Lovisa, Snow, Marcia, Adam, MJ, Limerent Nurse and of course you, somehow it’s good to see that everyone is alive and kicking.
Still, I feel it slipping away a bit, I don’t read every post as I have been doing , I’m not as keenly interested, maybe it’s a longish goodbye, and I think it might be good for me in the end.
The site helped me a lot, thanks Dr L for all the amazing info and for letting us ramble along here in some sort of self-therapy!
But maybe it’s good at some stage to leave the terminology of limerence, LO, SO, NC etc, they were helping immensely in the acute limerence, but for healing and leaving at the very end of it, I feel it‘s good not to categorize any more, and just let LOs blend into the fabric of my life.
Don’t know if that makes sense.
Anyway , I wish you the best and please don’t feel that you said/did anything wrong.
I ran into LO and his mother again. We had a pleasant conversation and I enjoyed it. LO did most of the talking. LO was seated between the two of us and had to turn his head back and forth as he spoke. I noticed that he looked at his mother about 90% of the time, and only occasionally turned toward me.
I realize I am not in a competition with her, but I still felt annoyed. I wondered if I was humiliating myself by even sitting there? Perhaps I should not have accepted his offer to sit down with them.
I woke up this morning feeling even more self-loathing than usual.
Perhaps I am over-thinking this.
On an earlier thread, you asked about therapy and its benefits with skepticism. I encourage therapy for you to better understand (and effectively counter) your obsession with this man’s behavior and your desire for him to treat you differently. A therapist can also help you address your feelings about your child, your ex, and perhaps other people you believe to have mistreated you, and how they may all be linked.
LwL is not a substitute for therapy. It’s a place to get information and validation. You cannot go as deep here, and it is too easy to run from well-meaning feedback and advice, or well-meaning people just won’t give it, and for legitimate reasons. I hope you take the next step and find real healing.
To Sapiens:
I have never been skeptical of therapy; I had years of therapy and I feel that I benefitted tremendously. My skepticism has to do with how well-versed a therapist might be with limerence issues specifically.
Are you saying that my problems are too big for this board?
I suppose everyone’s limerence is different, but limerence comes when we are vulnerable to it for other reasons, and that is what therapy is good for.
I hope that your feelings for yourself and your LO get healthier.
Norma,
“I have never been skeptical of therapy; I had years of therapy and I feel that I benefitted tremendously.”
I have had both good and bad experiences with therapy, but until the most recent one, had a string of bad ones, and felt quite hopeless about the enterprize and also about myself and life in general.
However, after I began to really struggle with my most recent LE, I knew that I could not get through this by myself, and was lucky enough to find a really great (but not perfect) therapist. That was over a year ago, before I’d heard of the concept of limerance.
“My skepticism has to do with how well-versed a therapist might be with limerence issues specifically.”
I share your concerns regarding this, especially after finding this site over two months ago. My own therapist has heard of limerance, but was not familiar with Dorothy Tennov. I showed her my brand new copy of Tennov, and she was extremely curious. Now, getting her to read the whole thing might be a bigger challenge! I also think she would be skeptical of the concept of person addiction; she touts herself as an evidence-based therapist, and how does one prove a concept such as person addiction? However, I’ve discussed with her the ideas discussed in this forum, and she seems to be happy that it is offering me so much support.
Despite my concerns, I still believe that the therapy continues to be highly beneficial. The therapist does not push her own views too hard, as some of my previous therapists have, and allows me to come to my own conlusions and formulate my own action plan, all while gently offering her own ideas, which often help me greatly. Specifically, she has helped be in over coming the shame, the self loathing, and probably the most important, helped me vastly improve my relationship with my wife. All of these things, especially the latter, will hopefully help me with the limerance as well.
So, my suggest to you, Norma, is to give therapy another try, and to keep trying new ones until you find one that you like.
And one more thing. I love reading your posts, even though reading about your distress pains me as well, but I feel so happy when you make progress!
Dear Norma,
I have just returned from an overseas vacation with my wife (that is another story that I’ll discuss in a separate post), and while I’ve been reading this forum, I did not have an opportunity to safely respond to your posts.
“I realize I am not in a competition with her, but I still felt annoyed. I wondered if I was humiliating myself by even sitting there? Perhaps I should not have accepted his offer to sit down with them.”
Norma, I can relate to this so much, having experienced similar events, although the most recent one did not involve an LO, and therefore had far less psychological impact. I think it is actually a good sign that you felt annoyed — you are realizing that his behavior is not appropriate, and that you do not deserve it; your realization shows signs of budding self respect. Because you cannot change the past, I think the main thing to work towards is to focus on getting out of the regret/loathing/repeat cycle. I go through so many of these or similar cycles myself. I know it is really hard to change the pattern, but it has to be done, it is essential to your well being.
Hate to sound like a know it all, but you really do need to work towards making him a MUCH smaller part of your life, to value his opinions less. I’ve seen you having realizations and making progress, along with some back tracking. As Dr L himself has discussed at length, that is part of your (and our) journey.
I wish you success.
Sending hugs.
The Song on the Subway Roof
Verse 1
He walked the rails above the roar,
Crowds were calling, hearts were sore.
But he saw me lying, still and small,
Kneeled beside me, heard it all.
Pre-Chorus
“Why are you lying here tonight?”
His voice was low, his eyes were kind.
“Surgery,” I softly said,
“Part of me is gone, yet life still climbs.”
Chorus
“I’ll write a song for women’s names,
For mothers’ love, for quiet flames.
For those who walk, for those who rest,
The wounded hearts, the tender blessed.”
Verse 2
Next night the city shook with cries,
Teenage voices filled the skies.
Still he came, alone to me,
Carrying a melody.
Pre-Chorus 2
Paper scattered, lines were drawn,
Notes like rivers, rushing strong.
Four sheets, five sheets, glowing white,
But I woke before the song took flight.
Chorus
“I’ll write a song for women’s names,
For mothers’ love, for quiet flames.
For those who walk, for those who rest,
The wounded hearts, the tender blessed.”
Bridge
A faceless friend once shared my lines,
We wrote our poems in coded signs.
He faded, silent, left no trace,
But still his echoes fill this place.
Verse 3
A ticket waits inside my hand,
To hear the singer, see him stand.
Dream unfinished, pages torn,
But I still carry what was born.
Final Chorus
A song for women, mothers, friends,
For broken bodies time defends.
For ghostly ties that come, that go,
For all the songs we’ll never know.
Outro
The melody is not yet done…
But its light remains.
MJ
I was crusin’ listening to music while I run some errands and these two songs reminded me of you and your LO/LF
Mel McDaniel — Baby’s Got Her Blue Jeans On
https://youtu.be/QDTyLi2pKGc
Tight Fittin’ Jeans — Conway Twitty
https://youtu.be/xs1kwVeKcRg
I find this absolutely f@#×ing hilarious with all the Sydney Sweeney blue jeans drama going on. She should totally do more of those, with these songs and inflame a few more of those anti’s that hate her now. The lyrics alone would drive them up a wall.. I however would love it..
As she gets into her classic Ford..
https://youtube.com/shorts/QjNWC3w-224?si=PmbKT_rBQZo0EuoW
Brother I’m more enamored with the car than I am the gal, whoever she is. I’d rather take it for a ride than her.
Ya’ll southerns with $hit like “you’re more nervous than a long tail cat in a room full of rocking chairs”.
“If it were raining soup, I’d get hit with a fork.”
It’s raining like a cow pissing on a flat rock.
Poem of September 24
Samira Negrouche
translated from the French by the author
Who crosses into you when you cross
Who crosses when you don’t cross
Who doesn’t cross when you cross
Who crosses when you can’t cross
Who doesn’t cross when you don’t cross
Who doesn’t want to cross
Who thinks they’re crossing
Who doesn’t look at you while crossing
Who might take the time to look at you.
******
Poème du 24 septembre
Qui traverse en toi quand tu traverses
Qui traverse quand tu ne traverses pas
Qui ne traverse pas quand tu traverses
Qui traverse quand tu ne peux pas traverser
Qui ne traverse pas quand tu ne traverses pas
Qui ne veut pas traverser
Qui croit traverser
Qui ne te regarde pas en traversant
Qui prendra peut-être le temps de te regarder.
Miss Snow,
“no such a peachy scene took place in my youth…”
Well, me, neither, really.
“Have you seen any first date in that level of soul/Glimmer colliding? I think it’s due to the effect of tasing “forbidden fruit”.”
I’m not sure what you mean.
“With us 👯♀️ Tik Tok on the stage, no singleton dude is daring to emerge from behind the velvet curtains… They’d run to Jupiter asking for God’s mercy… 🤭”
Again, I don’t know what you mean.
“She definitely said something along that line — be closer to him through Martin.”
She did say that, but she also said she wants to marry the son. She wants both. Passion with the father, companionate love with the son. That’s as close of an explanation that I can come up with. If she were to be with the father permanently, the passion would die.
” She’s not interested even in a regulated affair.”
I don’t know what you mean by “regulated” affair. She wants to have her freedom, and the son gives that to her in the way the father couldn’t. He’d be possessive.
“That’s the question one would ask: why do you need to take forbidden fruits to fell ALIVE⁉️ ”
I don’t think it needs to be forbidden, but passion dies. I think that’s the issue with almost every limerent on here. And I think it’s human nature to want to feel that again.
“Proust even believed that the imaginations of being with a lover could send a man to the Moon, but not long.”
True. But what a trip. 🙂 Is it worth it in the end? I don’t know. Obviously, not in the movie Damage. But that’s an extreme. It’s a novel. The “damage” had to be catastrophic.
” It’s limerence, with his knowing the term.”
Yes
“They understand each other on the pair-bonding level… they didn’t talk a lot with each other due to their extreme unavailability.”
I seem to remember a long speech in which she tells him about her brother.
“I hate the phrase: playing game! ”
Game on is an expression. It’s means to get things started. I didn’t mean playing a game. There’s actually an absence of game playing when they meet. There’s no song and dance of a traditional courtship. He pursues while she plays hard to get. They meet and both know exactly what’s going to happen.
“I need to drive a small truck loaded one or two dozens of them… so far, only 2 appeared in my slight… not promising…🫤”
Welcome to middle age! 🙂
“In my previous message, the word “terrify” had quotation marks. Then why it’s okay for Grey Wise to “terrify” Emma? How about sweetly & sexily “terrifying” before fondling your pro and doing a memorable JOB — sounding so laborious…⁉️”
The word “fondling” is so icky.
“It’s so psychological incorrect to treat it as a performance or a task… 🙄”
On some level it is a performance.
“I still feel that it’s just you and some who strongly hold this view. It’s a psychological dilemma of living in peaceful time…”
Nope. Google it.
When people live under wars or constant political turmoils just want to simply “peachy” time.
You keep bringing it back to your COO. I don’t live there. I’m talking about the West.
“If I have to worry that my dashing partner could possibly sneak rut for an affair whenever he can, where would be my sense of “safety” or peace?”
I’ve thought of that myself. Is it just a matter of time before one’s partner falls for someone else?
“Count me out! Rock Stars, particularly ones from the West, would be the last specie men I’d go to…. I never needed such a stimulus.”
There’s a sense of rebellion that can be interesting. Maybe rebellious is a better word than dangerous. They’re not following the scripted program. They’re not playing by the rules.
“So I need to go there on Sat/Sun to have LEG check in my clothes… 🤣”
Yeah. And bring a camera! 🙂
” I think no one should be idle whether having wealth or not… otherwise, all sorts of idle diseases would breathe in their souls…. the biggest one— boredom.”
They’re bored and they’re cruel. I think in the book Anna had stayed away from rich society even though her husband was wealthy. She only starts hanging around those people to be around Vronsky.
“Dimash looks so much older more, more serious and less sweet… I don’t even like his expression in this song (Feb. 2025, less than 1 min.)”
Good God can he sing low! And also high! He looks best in the first clip. The last one … he needs to lose the turtleneck sweater. (Although his hair is great in that clip.) 🙂
“Just remembered: she had seen the father before they met the first time at the party, because she recognized him immediately and walked up to him, while he had no idea who she was.”
But I don’t think she’s plotted to meet him. They happen to meet and there’s this weird energy between them. And he’s never felt as strongly for the wife. At any time.
“Just thought of an analogy of innate desires for forbidden fruit: have you ever seen any two-year old toddlers, stamping floor and screaming, “I want another Mommy’s nipples, now, now, and now‼️” 😉”
Can’t say as though I have. 🙂
Dimash is the ONLY singer in the world who can sing 6 octaves in any given song, here it goes —
https://youtube.com/shorts/velC_U2neoE?si=fZnmMxEOA2kqEQaY (short, 1 min)
Snow,
Oh, he really does. He has a great voice.
Miss Marcia,
This was the very First song I accidentally came across, probably in 2023 late Fall, with Dimash’s singing — like a voice from out of space…
https://youtube.com/shorts/JCfS5RI6-jk?si=xOkKmv8BrLGSZUIQ
I said something in the blog here that only this song’s pitch could match up to the intensity of my Limerence pain back in the Spring of 2024 — I had no word/tone for it, when I had to leave the old work in a couple of months…
I also said back the May of last year that the fate might be a blessing in disguise, despite there was no sight of any sort in front of my 👁️ …. You see, my intuition was rarely wrong, although it more than often lingered against all rationality/logic….
Later, his songs played more roles to bring me out of limerence and the icky longing… Now, I feel like in my spiritual teen — carefree with “plum cheeks”😊…
Going to his concert is not an impulsive act….
Lady Marcia,
[Have you seen any first date in that level of soul/Glimmer colliding? I think it’s due to the effect of tasing “forbidden fruit”] “I’m not sure what you mean.”
I meant how many first date you or others had, which could march up to the chemistry/Glimmer collision that took place between Anna and the Father in “Damage”. Both of them felt it and both knew what would follow is “forbidden fruit”.
“But I don’t think she’s plotted to meet him. They happen to meet and there’s this weird energy between them. And he’s never felt as strongly for the wife. At any time. “
She knew who he was before the first meeting for sure, probably through his son. A MP’s face is public. “Weird energy” is probably Glimmer to him.
“She did say that, but she also said she wants to marry the son. She wants both. Passion with the father, companionate love with the son. That’s as close of an explanation that I can come up with. If she were to be with the father permanently, the passion would die. “
That’s a good summarization. But Anna is very complex with her tragic background (trauma – caused her own brother killing himself over his forbidden mania for her), so she’s also a damsel in distress. The chivalrous son could “save” her, but not the lusty father.
[She’s not interested even in a regulated affair.] “I don’t know what you mean by “regulated” affair. She wants to have her freedom, and the son gives that to her in the way the father couldn’t. He’d be possessive. “
He wants to have their secret affair in “order”, but she’s aloof about any regularity. Here is the script —
F: I’ve been thinking about what we should do.
Anna: Do?
F: I have to leave Ingrid. There’s no doubt about that. It’s the right thing
for everybody. I can’t go on…not like this. What happened in Paris…The way I behaved. I’ve never had feelings like this. I have to get them into some sort of…order. I know it’ll be hard for Martyn.”
Anna: He’s fond of you. He loves me.
F: “I know, but he’s young. He’ll get over it.”
Anna: “He’s your son. He’d hate you.”
F: “He’d hate me for a while, but…”
Anna: “You’d lose him. You’d lose your own son? You’d also destroy the life you’ve made with Ingrid. It’s a good life.”
F: “What you say doesn’t make sense. How come you’re so sure?”
Anna: Because in your heart, you don’t even want it. You want us to start eating breakfast together?”
F: “I’d like that.”
Anna: “You’d like it if we lived in the same house…read the papers together?
What would you gain if you left Ingrid?”
F: “I’d gain you.”
Anna: You’d be gaining something you already have.
“I seem to remember a long speech in which she tells him about her brother. “
Yes. When the father bumped into Peter, Anna’s lover before Martin, he jealously interrogated her. So she told Peter’s role in her brother’s suicide — causing her mistaken brother terribly jealous and then slit his own wrist.
“Game on is an expression. It’s means to get things started. I didn’t mean playing a game. “
Sorry about my ESL understanding.
“There’s actually an absence of game playing when they meet. There’s no song and dance of a traditional courtship. He pursues while she plays hard to get. They meet and both know exactly what’s going to happen. “
I don’t think she played hard to get, but she wants to marry Martin, who physically resembles her own dead brother and who also truly loves her, wanting to “save” her. Father was trying to discourage their engagement—
Son: ”I can tell she’s (Mom) worried about Anna.”
F: “I think she’s (Mom) worried you’re taking on a lot.”
Son: “But you have to see that, that’s why I’m drawn to her. There’s a sadness… in her. I don’t know why, but it’s very interesting. I’ve discovered I can help her, and that’s great. It’s the best feeling.
F: “Makes you sound like a nurse. I’m not trying to stop you. I like Anna. I really do…but are you sure she’s really what you want?”
Son: “You don’t know her. There’s a whole side to her…that’s only there when we’re alone. If you could see that, then you’d feel differently. When we’re alone, she’s like no one else.”
Soon after, Anna told the father (not sure on the phone or in person)—
Anna: “Do you think I would have married Martyn…if I couldn’t be with you?”
F: “I’m coming.”
****
“I don’t think it needs to be forbidden, but passion dies. I think that’s the issue with almost every limerent on here. “
True, with almost every limerent here, probably more out of there who doesn’t know what they’re suffering and haven’t found LwL.
“And I think it’s human nature to want to feel that again. “
I disagree it’s human nature shared by all. There is non-limerent tribe, and those who do NOT live in the West.
“True. But what a trip. Is it worth it in the end? I don’t know. “
For unaware/ignorant limerents, fantasies in the head is perceived and felt as real and pleasant as actual PA. Based on Proust, Eros or betrayal take place in one’s imagination/head before the actual events. With LO-Lite, is it worth it in the end?
“Obviously, not in the movie Damage. But that’s an extreme. It’s a novel. The “damage” had to be catastrophic. “
It rightfully intends to serve as a moral and psychological lesson, so the story has to be extremely catastrophic, though still plausible in reality.
“Welcome to middle age! “
Is every ‘middle-aged aunty’ eyeing flowery young men?
“The word “fondling” is so icky. “
Sorry, it doesn’t have much effect to my ESL ears. But “job” sounds so unaffectionate and unromantic. Sex is supposed to be an act of unified-love expression, not some obligation of a job! Technical parts of it could always be learned by true lovers/partners — not egotistical game players/performers.
“On some level it is a performance. “
A tragic societal view — a psychological knife‼️ Did you read a couple of days ago that some limerent’s lamentation about “failing” such a “performance” and thus suffer LE pains for years? His/societal view/concept has brought his own dilemma and pains.
[I still feel that it’s just you and some who strongly hold this view. It’s a psychological dilemma of living in peaceful time…] “Nope. Google it. “
Google what⁉️ — the world population is 8.1bn. Core West: = 833m, Europe/Nato West: =120m, Latin America + Caribbean = 660m, the other side of earth, Middle East + Far East = 2.67bn. The West is in minority, my Dear!
Cultures have inescapable, tremendous influence in one’s psychology; how much of Western psychology studies have involved/covered other nations? Does anyone have data?
[When people live under wars or constant political turmoils just want to simply “peachy” time.] “You keep bringing it back to your COO. I don’t live there. I’m talking about the West. “
Your ladyship: you’re discussing some serious topics with a person who is originally from COO which has 5 thousand years of civilization — the only one survived, and counts 1/5 of the world population. Even some of us have migrated/married to the West, do you think our cultural and spiritual roots would be wiped out/eradicated by advanced technology/medicine, comfortable living (physical), and some cultural “junks” in the West❓
“I’ve thought of that myself. Is it just a matter of time before one’s partner falls for someone else?z’
It does NOT happen to partner/SO. There are 50% of populations belonging to non-limerent tribe, even just in the West.
“here’s a sense of rebellion that can be interesting. Maybe rebellious is a better word than dangerous. They’re not following the scripted program. They’re not playing by the rules. “
First of all, not all rules are “bad” or need to be rebelled against; without certain rules, a society would become anarchical. Secondly, one should never rebel for the rebellions’ sake, but wisely rebel with one’s education, talents, and sounding reasons. Thirdly, one should not rebel at a cost of “harming” oneself, eg. abusing drugs, alcohol, & other substance, ignoring decent education and basic responsibilities to oneself and others…
In a nutshell, one should be wisely Selfish, rebellious or obedient or anywhere in between. Otherwise, who suffers⁉️ I’m not attacking the society/culture here, but feel sorry for so many suffering souls; how many rock/pop stars died of over dose of drugs/medicines, alcohol, etc… I’m very glad to see Madonna is still alive‼️
”They’re bored and they’re cruel. I think in the book Anna had stayed away from rich society even though her husband was wealthy. She only starts hanging around those people to be around Vronsky. “
Very true. They’re cruel under a mask of civilization, gentility, charisma, and education. In the beginning, Anna was elegant, sweet, caring, mostly content, loved by her son, brother, sister-in-law, nephews and nieces…. Later after hanging around those wastrels of the society, look what happened to her⁉️
****
“Again, I don’t know what you mean. “
❄️ : [… so he [MJ] dared to defy your ladyship’s order…]
Marcia: “And he will pay for that. “ 🙂
❄️ : [I can’t wait to see how he’s going to pay for it… ] Marcia: “It’s probably not worth our effort. Better to focus our attention on other dudes. “🙂
❄️ : [“Who are other dudes in your mind? ”] 😉
Marcia: “We have to find new ones! And if none appear for a while … we wait! ”🙂
❄️: Wait for whom⁉️ With us 👯♀️ Tik Tok like this on the stage, with your sharp insights and witty lips, no singleton dude dares to emerge from behind the [LwL purple or burgundy] velvet curtains (if they’re silently testing LwL water)… They’d run to Jupiter asking for God’s mercy… 🤭
I’m patiently waiting to see who dare to come onto the stage to tango with the ONE-and-Only Marcia. 😋
Typo: “It does NOT happen to EVERY partner/SO.”
I lost the first passage entirely, about 1.5 hours ago, and had to retype the lost 😞 messages…
It’s not so bad — it made my mind to have more calmer time when I actually have to reenter the similar thoughts…
The other side of the coin: I lost some sleeping time…