It’s July. It’s very hot in the UK. Must be time for a nice steaming cup of coffee.
I usually try to use the summer break as a chance to catch up and reflect. To think about where effort would be well focused for the second half of the year.
I currently have a lot of projects on the go, so do need to get better at prioritising.
So, that’s what I thought I would use this edition of the coffeehouse to ask you all about.
What would you like to see ahead in the future of LwL?
Here are a few options:
- Limerence recovery bootcamps
- More Case Studies posts (and videos?)
- Online workshops on how to tackle the hardest problems (e.g. intrusive thoughts, limiting contact, finding purpose, dealing with the grief of loss, etc.)
- An online community for limerents, similar to our community for partners
- Other…?
So, let me know your thoughts. What would make LwL more useful for you?
All ideas welcomed!
You’ve touched down on so many important issues but even though it’s already been discussed I wish you could do more research and take a deeper dive into why some random person comes out of nowhere and hits you like a freight train?
What is going on in your life to make you so vulnerable? Is it the brains way of dealing with childhood trauma or neglect or is that just useless theory’s?
Is there a way to dig into your past and crack the code as to what is causing this?
Richie,
“What is going on in your life to make you so vulnerable?”
This has been discussed in the forum: buried/unresolved childhood trauma/neglect, grief, depression, job stress, marital problems, aimless living, boredom, neurodivergence, etc.
“ Is there a way to dig into your past and crack the code as to what is causing this?”
Digging into one’ past could be lengthy and “scary”; it might (re)trigger some forgotten traumatic events and their negative effects. Based on my own positive experience in the digging, I want to share a bit of this process here (sample, 1), although it might not apply to you (plural) at all.
1. You need to be mental/emotional prepared, clearly aware that some dark memories will surface, often randomly or suddenly while you deal with something else — body keeps scores. They can be highly unpleasant, triggering, or painful, often causing psychosomatic symptoms.
2. Firmly set daily affirmations in the mind: whatever happened in my past is gone, but their impact still negatively affect my life. I want to heal from them…. They were DONE to me, NOT my fault! If I reacted/rebelled “negatively” (in outsiders’ eyes), I was too young to know how to properly react… I wasn’t taught/demonstrated how to smartly react… those “abusers” had their own issues and took them out on me…. They had a good intention but too ignorant to know how to guide me…. In any scenario, a child/youth (under 18) is not to blame; caregivers and culture are!
3. It’s best, might be necessary, to find a highly trustable, non-judgmental human ear to listen to your past “stories”, particularly bad experiences — a therapist/SO/best friend, someone who can respond you either in person or in written words (even just simple, non-judgmental acknowledgement). One’s diary or God can’t help, I’m sorry to say.
4. In your “confessions”, mighty courage is needed to honestly speak up all your complaints, resentments, pains, griefs, sorrows, regrets, fear, etc. to the point you might pass out for a bit. I personally found that writing is “safer” and more therapeutic. However, your “confidant” needs to hear/see your written pieces even if they are unable to deeply empathize. The courageous revealing is one part of treatments.
5. Caveat: do NOT (subconsciously) transform your confidant into your makeup/substitute caregiver/parent for your wounded “child” self. You’re no longer a child, so NO any adult (including your own parents) can reparent you. Otherwise, the adult self in you — your SELF, may feel “small/belittled” or eventually resent this external, “new parent”, no matter how brilliant and kind s/he is.
6. During the process, try to wake up your inner “parent” (in IFS, it’s named “SELF” comprised of 8Cs and 5Ps, please AI it) to parent your inner “child”, taking care of her past wounds and concurrent vulnerabilities. Writing itself is to separate observer brain from doer brain; the former could gather SELF to manage and balance all protectors and vulnerabilities. (Again, AI IFS parts)
7. Be extremely kind and gentle with your “child” in you. While doing digging, literally put the most favorite photo of your childhood in front of you, envision and believe you’re parenting him/her now and in the future — always nurture one’s inner child that keeps curiosity and openness alive. then ask: what would/could I do now if s/he is going through my past traumas /negligence? If you can imagine like in a movie, make your adult self to talk with your child self.
8. The ultimate goal is: use this witness as a therapeutic “cane”, dig into your past, let old wounds reopen/surface, use all psychological and spiritual means to treat and heal them completely. By then, you’d become your own parent, standing tall next to your “child” self; you’d truly feel like a parent, even to your own parents.
I don’t think there is a universal code that cause anyone to be hit by a “ out-of-nowhere freight train”. In my case, it’s definitely caused by an accumulation of past traumatic events and a sudden grief. Without knowing about LO/LE back then, the daredevil inside me ignorantly used my XLO as a therapeutic cane to treat my cptsd, the fear of opening my past baggage was 10 times fold! Probably that’s why it worked. I’m sure, DrL would tell you that LO is the last person on earth to show the liemrent’s deep psychological scares.
Please feel free to ask questions. Good lucks to you in this necessary, utmost challenging, self-discovering, self-liberating, and self-reinventing journey, which will ultimately bring YOU more love, joys and peace.
Edit: “show the liemrent’s deep psychological scars.”
That was a lot of kind and well thought out words.
Thank you for taking the time to write it!
You’re welcome!
I hope my successful experience could somehow encourage others who wish but fear to dig really deep within — a scary, painful process. But no one else could do it for you (impersonal), one has to WALK on one’s own path — a healthier or a “new” life journey.
Even if one’s limerence was/is not rooted or originated from childhood stuff, it’s still a necessity to remove/eradicate its subconscious, long-term, negative impact. Otherwise, one could easily slip into more LE again or subconsciously keep living under other mental stresses which I’m seeing everyday, unfortunately.
Again, best wishes to you (-the dolphin’s boy?)!
That’s interesting… I now indeed realize that my whole LE actually uncovered a LOT of psychological baggage I was carrying. That freight train feeling is real. It’s like someone touches you in an instant and is gone the next and a whole world within starts unfolding. The moment when ‘the glimmer’ hit me, my life changed. I really understand now why I was so nervous around that encounter but I also think it all was such a negative experience for me that it left me cautious of anything like that to ever happening again. When all I wanted was to reach love, joy and happiness, a huge shadow was cast instead that I am still trying to find my way through. Its almost like limerence is the brains way of trying to find a shortcut to happiness, like an escape, in order just to not deal with all that dark stuff….
Kat,
Haven’t seen you for a while, how are you doing lately in terms of easing, recovering from your LE?
“That’s interesting… I now indeed realize that my whole LE actually uncovered a lot of psychological baggage I was carrying. That freight train feeling is real. It’s like someone touches you in an instant and is gone the next and a whole world within starts unfolding.”
From what I understand, a single or series of LE(s) occurred to show one’s psychological baggage – the “stuff”, limerents had/have been carrying, probably all their life. LE occurs due of unresolved “stuff”, its Lighting indicates the existence of “the staff”, and manifests in LE symptoms. One needs to be willing to discern the connection and take a therapeutic way to walk through or dissolve “the huge shadow”.
Less the “stuff”, less chances to slip into a new LE, although the glimmer still takes place more times before one’s deathbed. I had 5 glimmers after my XLE, but I didn’t let any of them go further. I analyzed glimmers constantly right after its occurrence. Then they all “backed” away. I’m still dealing with one of 5 men each week, but it has no effect, good or bad, on me. It’s pleasantly peaceful to interact with him professionally.
“I really understand now why I was so nervous around that encounter but I also think it all was such a negative experience for me that it left me cautious of anything like that to ever happening again. “
You mean encounter of Glimmer or LE’s darker parts? Nervousness, anxiety and panic attack occurred during LE, had all taken place before, mostly in childhood. Yet, most of us don’t remember especially painful memories (the brain chose to forget, like mine). LE is a trigger to powerfully wake up all those hidden/forgotten memories and to make one re-experience them/. We often mistaken them merely for LE pains.
“When all I wanted was to reach love, joy and happiness, a huge shadow was cast instead that I am still trying to find my way through. “
Alain de Botton/the School of Life has some YT videos on childhood traumas and their impact on adulthood (cptsd), which I watched repeatedly during LE trying to understand my nervousness, fearfulness, anxiety, panic attack, and other cptsd symptoms. On the flip side of the same coin, LE is an enlightening “tool” for limerents to recognize the “huge shadow” and work through it, step by step, piece by piece. NO LO could magically take that shadow away For You.
“It’s almost like limerence is the brains way of trying to find a shortcut to happiness, like an escape, in order just to not deal with all that dark stuff….”
Yes, you’ve captured an essence of LE — an illusional short cut. DrL has stressed and many have experienced, LE is NOT lasting substantial love, joys and happiness, It’s momentary High, like taking drug floating on a cloud, without the feet grounded. How perilous it is!
Thousands of real life examples have shown that our desired love, joy, and happiness are generated (not dropped from the sky) through our logic+emotional mind, words, and sustainable caring actions. It’s a “castle” to be built, it’s the Work that involves efforts, obstacles, failures, resolutions, and finally the desired product.
I wish you many successes, one at a time, if you’re trying to dissolve (or peacefully live with) your own “huge shadow” with “Patience, Presence, Persistence, Perspective, and Playfulness (IFS Self part); easiness, humor are helpful. If you face them, recognize and name them, they’d lose their power. The process will trigger one’s painful memories, try not run to any substance or behavioral “drug” (sugar included).
🍀
Thank you for all the resources so far! The most useful for me was reading “Smitten” which sets everything out really clearly. The blog is a really useful resource for exploring the topic in bite-sized chunks, and it’s been good to be able to take part in the forum for camaraderie and accountability.
I’ve suggested before that it would be good to share a few more “good news” case studies from past limerents explaining what aided their recovery (and also what didn’t).
It would also be useful to have a closed forum, or perhaps several smaller ones. When I post here I’m usually vague about details to the point of uselessness, but if I were having a discussion not publicly available for evermore on the internet I might be able to open up a bit more.
But really, it’s the work you’ve already done and continuing to do which has been most valuable to me. Thank you and keep up the good work!
Tom, hope you are enjoying some well-earned rest over the (currently way too hot) summer.
The workshops would be my preferred idea, and would have been something I would have been willing to pay for. There was a time I would gladly have thrown money at almost anything to end my LE! As you know, I asked you about the deprogramming course but it wasn’t quite right for my situation (though thinking about it, it might be more so now, to ‘finish the job’). One advantage of workshops over the course would be that we could pick and choose just the topics we find relevant and applicable. I also respond better to learning in a group environment than self-paced.
I’m interested in how you think the bootcamps might work, and what insights you already have from the partners’ community that could transfer to that.
The comments in the forums and especially the coffeehouse threads already make this feel like a peer support community – somebody here has always turned up when I’ve needed them and it has been cathartic to know other people are living through similar – it makes limerence feel less like madness. Posters usually seem to walk the fine line between being kind, but not enabling, pretty well.
The only thing is that finding a comment or leaving a comment in the right place is a bit clunky, so if it could migrate to a newer style platform where that was easier, that would be good.
I’d like there to be more permanently open threads. Then various things people like to post (music and reading suggestions, poetry, lighter hearted bits) could be separate from the more serious discussions. And there could be threads for newer limmies separate from us old timers. When I was new, I didn’t post much in coffeehouses because they felt a bit like an old timers’ friendship group, but once I had been here longer I appreciated being part of that type of group myself.
I’ve seen you tried a private forum before but it didn’t seem to massively work – why was that?
Tom, I don’t think this is what you were asking, but I would dearly love it if there were an “edit” button we could use after we hit “post” to fix typographical errors.
I am also afraid that I will accidentally enter my real name instead of my screen name.
So am I! Terrified!
There is already a private forum. Has been for a few years. Maybe 3 or 4 ? It’s been very slow of late but used to be quite active. But people got better and moved on.
I do like the setup there and there is also an edit button that Norma would like. What I liked best about that forum is the ability to go back and reference past posts by author. Whereas here, searching for them takes way more time.
Yes, I like the edit button and the delete button. The forum is more private so you can get more detailed and then delete the posts or part of them.
Also, I think the forum is less hand-holding than this site.
But it died. There’s no real community anymore like there was. The old posters are gone and new posters arrive but don’t stay long or only come back intermittently. It’s happening here, too. I think there are life cycles to these things.
I think it was Cys2 or James over there that once posted it’s a good thing when posters don’t come back. It means they’re healed or in a better place.
Of course that doesn’t apply to you or me does it “Old” timer?? (We know I’ll never be right 😆)
MJ,
“I think it was Cys2 or James over there that once posted it’s a good thing when posters don’t come back. It means they’re healed or in a better place.”
You could look at it a different way. They got the help they needed but didn’t want to help others.
(You can yell at me if you want about that statement. :))
“Of course that doesn’t apply to you or me does it “Old” timer?? (We know I’ll never be right 😆)”
We’re in high school and we’ve been held back a few times. People side eye us a lot. “Those two look a little too old to be here.” 🙂
You can’t seem to pass ninth grade English. 🙂
“ I think it was Cys2 or James over there that once posted it’s a good thing when posters don’t come back. It means they’re healed or in a better place.”
You could look at it a different way. They got the help they needed but didn’t want to help others.”
As one of the people you’re referring to, I think it can be both or either. Or, in my case, emotional fatigue. Some of the people who post over there have serious issues and without adequate support, it’s a heavy load to carry.
I thought, and still do, that hosting an online community here for limerents would be ideal. The community for SOs of limerents is professionally supported by Dr. Tom’s partnership with Fenna, and I think that is just as needed for a limerent recovery community. The nature of limerence does not lend itself to ongoing peer support, in my opinion.
Anonymous,
“As one of the people you’re referring to, I think it can be both or either. Or, in my case, emotional fatigue. Some of the people who post over there have serious issues and without adequate support, it’s a heavy load to carry.”
I wasn’t referring to deeper psychological issues. I agree there were some posters who came onto the forum and needed help that was beyond what the forum could offer.
I just meant limerence. Once their LE was winding down, they dropped off. Or only reappeard if they had a new LO. And if they did post, it was about them and their LO. There was no attempt to become part of the community.
No one is required to, of course.
“You could look at it a different way. They got the help they needed but didn’t want to help others.
(You can yell at me if you want about that statement. :))”
Marcia
I won’t yell. I never would have suspected that because the group (especially the ladies) that stuck around there really did seem to care. Even put me in my place when I overstepped or was too candid. I was in a different place but I was kinda an a$$ at times. (No you may not agree with that)
To me, I feel limerence has to run it’s course. I thought, how many times can I keep beating my own head over LO and continue to still never get anywhere? What is the point?? This is a waste of good time. It’s like you wrote above, there are life cycles to these things.
I was just grateful there were people out there who helped me makes sense of it and knew where I was coming from. Without making me feel like an idiot or like I’m the only one.
As Anonymous also posted, I can see how this can become emotionally taxing on one or two persons, to try and help others, if they are the only ones in a forum actually doing it. I quit posting over there because people kinda fell off and I didn’t want to keep coming back posting about redundant issues. Things I may have not been getting. Not everyone cares nor needs to repeat. (Look how frustrated you get repeating to me all the time.. I’m an idiot 😆 )
Everyone deals with their limerent issues in their own way. I was no different. I was also debating therapy around then too, but never found the right fit. So I ended up talking to a Priest. That method may not work for everyone, but it at least kinda brought me back down to earth. I don’t think I’m completely healed, but can any of us still hanging around here ever truly believe they will be? I probably won’t till I at least get to have that cup of coffee I keep complaining about never getting. 🚫☕️🚱
“We’re in high school and we’ve been held back a few times. People side eye us a lot. “Those two look a little too old to be here.” 🙂”
As I like to believe, I’m forever ageless like Dick Clark. So if anything, I would say they’re probably thinking/wondering who’s the older one as we walk by them. (Of course it won’t be me.. 😂)(Or will it? 🤔) Hiding/shaving all my grey hairs without “Just for men”😆
“You can’t seem to pass ninth grade English. 🙂”
Sounds about right. I hated english. Hated math. (Barely passed algebra) Hated school. It was a miracle I passed 9th grade english. I disliked the hell out of that Teacher. English didn’t get interesting to me till Junior year when we studied literature. I liked Animal Farm, 1984 and especially Our Town. Something about those quirky little community people. You know, like us here at Lwl.. 😆
MJ,
“I won’t yell. I never would have suspected that because the group (especially the ladies) that stuck around there really did seem to care. ”
They’re all gone.
“Even put me in my place when I overstepped or was too candid. I was in a different place but I was kinda an a$$ at times. (No you may not agree with that)?
I do remember you got scolded one time by several people (you made some comments and women and aging, I can’t remember exactly what they were) and as much as everyone wanted to punch you in the face, you actually were quite sincere in your apology.
“To me, I feel limerence has to run it’s course. I thought, how many times can I keep beating my own head over LO and continue to still never get anywhere? ”
Its course.
After three years+, you’re finally getting it. 🙂
“Without making me feel like an idiot or like I’m the only one.”
You’re definitely not the only one.
“As Anonymous also posted, I can see how this can become emotionally taxing on one or two persons, to try and help others, if they are the only ones in a forum actually doing it.”
I think we both know who Anonymous is in terms of her forum name. 🙂 Yes, most definitely. If they’re helping. Not the people who post only about themselves.
” Not everyone cares nor needs to repeat. ”
That’s the problem with limerence. Not much happens. It’s a book with almost no plot. I had a lot of … er … stuff happening with mine. But it lasted all of a month and I’ve been very, very good with total NC since. I have nothing new to report. Middle-aged is gray flannel. Like Lady Marmalade … “Now he’s back home, doing 9 to 5, living his gray flannel life, But when he turns off to sleep, old memories creep …”
The one by Labelle. NOT the remake.
“Look how frustrated you get repeating to me all the time… ”
Is it a reading comprehension issue? Or a cognitive issue? Or a hard-headeness? 🙂
“So I ended up talking to a Priest. ”
Whatever works for you.
“I don’t think I’m completely healed, but can any of us still hanging around here ever truly believe they will be? ”
I’ve found that complete avoidance is key. Not just from the LO but from your side. 🙂 No temptation.
“I probably won’t till I at least get to have that cup of coffee I keep complaining about never getting. 🚫☕️🚱”
Oh, I’ve had a cup of coffee since going NC. Didn’t help. Beacause I didn’t want that particular cup of coffee.
“As I like to believe, I’m forever ageless like Dick Clark. ”
What a weird reference! The man had zero sex appeal. 🙂
“So if anything, I would say they’re probably thinking/wondering who’s the older one as we walk by them. (Of course it won’t be me.. 😂)(Or will it? 🤔) ”
I mean, I m a woman. Women tend to take better care of themselves.
“Hiding/shaving all my grey hairs without “Just for men”😆”
I told you to dye that damn hair. 🙂
“Sounds about right. I hated english.”
It’s English. English is a proper noun. 🙂
” Hated math. (Barely passed algebra) Hated school. It was a miracle I passed 9th grade english. I disliked the hell out of that Teacher.”
Teacher is not a proper noun. 🙂
“English didn’t get interesting to me till Junior year when we studied literature. I liked Animal Farm, 1984 and especially Our Town. ”
I haven’t read “1984,” but I like the other two.
I was surprised “Lolita” wasn’t your favorite. C’mon … you walked right into that one. 🙂
“I do remember you got scolded one time by several people (you made some comments and women and aging, I can’t remember exactly what they were) and as much as everyone wanted to punch you in the face, you actually were quite sincere in your apology.”
Marcia
I know you probably see those commercials on TV late at night that are touting cheaper car insurance for seniors 55 and over. Life insurance for seniors 50 and over.
Dental implants, varicose veins, medication discounts, doctors that specialize in healthcare for seniors over 50. All that stuff for us older types just because we’ve supposedly reached a milestone..
Well I wasn’t buying it.
I hated the fact that I was this getting older type guy in my 50s and wanted to be with a 27 year old, that everyone kept telling me was way too young for me. Like we would be 2 consenting adults if it were to happen. What is the problem? I know I’m old enough to be her Father but so what? If she truly liked me, why would that matter?
I suppose I was just in way more denial then because I so didn’t want LO to see me as some pervy older dude that liked to stare at young women like her. I can’t help she all of a sudden became the Woman of my dreams. Like nothing could have prepared me for a LE and yet everyone seemingly shut me down (or so it felt like) in this forum and then the other one because of age gap. Which I know wasn’t really about shutting me down personally. It was just reality. I didn’t want to buy it. Those ads I was seeing were reminders of the reality of the guy I was (and still) looking at in the mirror. I just wanted to stay younger and be with LO. A beautiful young Woman. Not the ones I was aging with. I couldn’t believe I was (and still am) getting older. Thats what angered me a lot then. Couple it all with my transfer to a new facility, my Daughter’s rage and Dads issues, it’s no wonder I didn’t think before I posted. That’s not an excuse to put others down and I wasn’t even trying to go there. It just came out because I’m a dumbass and didn’t think of anyone other than myself. I’m still sorry I posted that.
“Its course.
After three years+, you’re finally getting it. 🙂”
Maybe only a little. It will be 4 years this Saturday.. 😣😭
“I had a lot of … er … stuff happening with mine. But it lasted all of a month and I’ve been very, very good with total NC since. I have nothing new to report. Middle-aged is gray flannel.”
Well good for you. You’re in control. Although I thought you hated the term, middle-aged. 😆
We’re 55 now, which to me sounds like society thinks we have 1 foot in the grave.
“Is it a reading comprehension issue? Or a cognitive issue? Or a hard-headeness? 🙂”
All of that could be related to age. So you probably just proved a point to me once again that I’m not getting any younger. So just say it. Get with the program MJ. Millennial and Gen Z Women don’t want you.. 😆
“I’ve found that complete avoidance is key. Not just from the LO but from your side. 🙂 No temptation.”
I get this. I’ve only passed LO in her car going in to work. Never at work. The temptation is almost non existent.
“Oh, I’ve had a cup of coffee since going NC. Didn’t help. Beacause I didn’t want that particular cup of coffee.”
I bitch a lot about not getting coffee but I drink plenty of ice coffee now thats its warm out. (In my shorts, lol) My coffee complaint is about drinking it alone all the time, when I’d rather be sharing a cup with a pretty lady over jovial conversation. I swear if that day ever becomes reality again I’ll have to pinch myself just to make sure I’m not dreaming. I won’t even know how to behave. Feels like its been that long.
“What a weird reference! The man had zero sex appeal. 🙂”
Thats because I’m beginning to think I have zero sex appeal. 😆
“I mean, I m a woman. Women tend to take better care of themselves.”
If you were brought up properly. Sounds like you were. But I swear I don’t look 55. Especially after I man-scape. And I still have a full head of hair. That I refuse to dye. 😂
“It’s English. English is a proper noun. 🙂
Teacher is not a proper noun. 🙂”
Thank you teacher for teaching me English.
Now let me teach you some Spanish and ¡Sácate de aquí! 🤣
“I was surprised “Lolita” wasn’t your favorite. C’mon … you walked right into that one. 🙂”
That wasn’t part of the curriculum. Although I wouldn’t have complained. 😆
MJ,
“Like we would be 2 consenting adults if it were to happen. What is the problem? I know I’m old enough to be her Father but so what? If she truly liked me, why would that matter?”
Would you date a woman who was 25 years older than you? That should answer all your questions. Is it possible you would? Sure. Is it likely? No.
And it’s no different for a good number of young women. You’re going to tell me it is, but it isn’t.
“I can’t help she all of a sudden became the Woman of my dreams. ”
You’re veering off into pedastalizing her again. It makes me think you’ve made little progress in 4 years.
“Like nothing could have prepared me for a LE and yet everyone seemingly shut me down (or so it felt like) in this forum and then the other one because of age gap.”
I think even Lovisa did, if i remember correctly. And the men on here usually take her word as gospel.
“Those ads I was seeing were reminders of the reality of the guy I was (and still) looking at in the mirror.”
I get it. Aging sucks. I don’t understand women my age who say this age is wonderful and they feel free of the male gaze. Blah, blah, blah. It makes no sense to me.
“I just wanted to stay younger and be with LO. A beautiful young Woman. Not the ones I was aging with. ”
I was reading a book about a middle-aged woman who has a relationsihp with a much younger man. She wrote the same thing. She didn’t want to look into the face of a man her age. It hit too close to home.
“That’s not an excuse to put others down and I wasn’t even trying to go there. It just came out because I’m a dumbass and didn’t think of anyone other than myself. I’m still sorry I posted that.”
I didn’t bring it up to shame you. I was using it as an example of how the blog was less enabling than this site.
Your apology was very heartfelt and sincere. I would be shocked if anyone is still irritated by the comments.
“Maybe only a little. It will be 4 years this Saturday.. 😣😭”
Oh, boy.
[“I had a lot of … er … stuff happening with mine. But it lasted all of a month and I’ve been very, very good with total NC since. I have nothing new to report. Middle-aged is gray flannel.”]
“Well good for you. You’re in control. Although I thought you hated the term, middle-aged. 😆”
Huh? I have to be very blunt with you because you don’t pick up on nuance. I hooked up with him. And now I’ve been good. Stayed away. Completely. So now my life is gray flannel. I don’t think you can have both. The height of emotion with an LO and a healthy interaction. And, no, I’m not in control. The LO is always in control. He/she who wants less is always in control.
Well, middle-aged is what I am. There’s no getting around it.
“We’re 55 now, which to me sounds like society thinks we have 1 foot in the grave.”
I haven’t completely given up yet. I’ve been plowing forward with this diet and exercise. My end-date goal is late October. Then I’m going to get back on the sites and attend some social stuff in person. Because the surefire way to keep someone lodged in your head is to make no effort to meet someone else. I had a female friend who said I was making no effort, and while she was right, it bugged me. She met her husband in college! Could it have been any easier for her? Everyone around you is young and cute and available.
“All of that could be related to age. ”
I’m pretty sure you have a lifelong condition. 🙂 It’s why your parents didn’t have any more children. They were worried … they’d have two like you. 🙂 (C’mon. That was funny.)
“I get this. I’ve only passed LO in her car going in to work. Never at work. The temptation is almost non existent.”
I meant staying away from men completely. So there’s no temptation. Since my taste is so bad. 🙂
” My coffee complaint is about drinking it alone all the time, when I’d rather be sharing a cup with a pretty lady over jovial conversation.”
You don’t understand the meaning of a metaphor to save your life. 🙂 I realize that a “cup of coffee” sometimes was literal in meaning. It meant meeting up with someone for a coffee. But … I thought it was also sometimes a metaphor for sex. Thus, when I had the “cup of coffee” with someone who wasn’t my LO … I didn’t really want it.
“I swear if that day ever becomes reality again I’ll have to pinch myself just to make sure I’m not dreaming. I won’t even know how to behave. Feels like its been that long.”
Well, that is up to you. We’ve gone over … and over … and over … what to do.
[“What a weird reference! The man had zero sex appeal. 🙂”]
“Thats because I’m beginning to think I have zero sex appeal. 😆”
He’s plastic. Like that other dude who replaced him … Ryan Seacrest. Bland as bland can be. Take his pulse! See if he’s actually human! 🙂
“If you were brought up properly.”
Huh? Has nothing to do with that. Women, as a whole, spend more time on skin care and their appearance than men do.
“Now let me teach you some Spanish and ¡Sácate de aquí! 🤣”
What does that mean? “Go ‘F’ yourself”? 🙂
“That wasn’t part of the curriculum. Although I wouldn’t have complained. 😆”
Well, the girl in the book is 12. He’s in his 30s. So it is icky. How Nabokov manages to make the story into something briliant is his genius.
I didn’t know there was a private forum! I’ve not seen mention of it anywhere. It’s probably very quiet because a lot of other people don’t know about it either. How do you get on it?
It’s listed on the Resources page here, under “Some good links”.
Thanks!
I would like to see stories about the positive side of ‘this’, I don’t use the L word cause that has negative connotations.
I myself enjoy thinking of a person I knew 40 odd years ago and haven’t seen or talked to since. Reminiscing about times we had then making up scenarios of what could have been, simply fun.
I know not for most but is for some.
That’s the power of pure imagination—carefree of any outcome, immortal optimism, and glory of the mind!
Human biological needs and limitations, chemical/sensory actions and reactions, And gravity of realistic and habitual living mostly drag down or cripple the wings of envisioning “what could have been” in any arena….
L word is related to: “greedy and needy, not selfless or unconditional, and during the period of uncertainty L can also be jealous and angry.” — DrL. How could any beautiful imagination ever come out of those conditions?!
Your “simply fun” is enviable.
Hi , Simple Joe
I’ve a story somehow similar to yours. Four years ago I had a dream with this person I knew 49 years earlier. I too, had not heard or seen them since. After waking up from the dream my mind was entirely hijacked for ten long months of pain and suffering, anguish and anxiety. I it had continued ever since for four years but less intensive. Now, at last can enjoy thinking of them without the tweak in the gut and heart, and no tears.I also ruminated of what could have been, but not anymore. It all taught me that there’s beauty and hope in the other side of pain. I’m grateful that something that beautiful passed my way, and I can smile and live with it.
Dear Nisor! 🫂
Welcome back, Nisor! 🥰
I’m so happy to hear that you’ve last arrived at where you wanted to be(but couldn’t more than two years ago) – keep beautiful memories of you with LO, without lingering on “what could have been”, after that sudden dream of 49 years later…
I guess staying away from LwL helped somewhat? 😃 Congratulations! I admire your stamina to stay away from the triggering place to you.
I don’t know if you have spottily visited LwL to know what’s being going on here. In a nutshell, I did a lot of self-discovery, self-renewal work, not only got rid of (with a surprising help — my lucky karma 😀 ) my 8-year LE but also firmly eradicated its root — the root (originated from my childhood) for so many problems in my previous relations/relationship and in my life in general. Moreover, I’ve become a habitual practicing Stoic, which helps me ground myself, living each day with more meanings and peace, but no/little expectation, ergo no/little anxiety or fear…
I still remember our “loud”/busy chats well, which helped me so much when I first came to LwL and felt so lost… you were my first daily champion! 💕 Now, I’ve won the war against LE and other psychological problems in my personal journey, thank you for your initial unbending support and encouragement! 💕
I’m still hanging around here to offer a bit of my personal thoughts/biased opinions, hopefully they’re helpful to some ear-opening limerents, even just one☝️… 😊
Nisor,
How is your back and health in general? I hope it’s got better by now.
🫂
Hi Snow and MJ, all beautiful limerents!
I was scrolling and found LWL video and decided to visit you guys.
Snow, thanks for your words, you’re as always very exciting and kind.
Yes, I have been absent for quite awhile, I was spending too much time with the site when I needed to look inside myself more. I can tell you that the only way out for me was to wade in the formidable pain , like a hug in the mud. There were difficult times and times of respite, as I have this sort of protest, feeling that I had been cheated or robbed of something that I had a right to, that it was not the natural order of things. Go figure. Life doesn’t owe me anything, it’s what we make of it, the decisions we make at a particular time in our lives . I’ve been blessed because I have been loved and appreciated by many , but many didn’t get to know me well, or the vastness of my awesomeness , ie LO. But that’s fine now, I no longer care or worry what he might think of me or what could have been. Though he told me he had good memories of me.
That’s that.
I’m so glad you’re doing well and see you’re really cheerful about it. That’s my girl! You deserve much more because you’re a beautiful delicate soul and willing to learn. By the way, how’s your piano lessons? Your work?
Your travels?
I’m spending more time in mindfulness, being in present time, appreciating the colors again, as there was a long period of time my life felt colorless. Traveling a bit and looking forward , by early November , to go again somewhere in Europe. Do You know Snow that I’m in my early eighties, and my LO is 89? We , meaning, me and my SO , could travel more but we cannot walk that much anymore.. . One thing I never lost was the ability to eat well, and stay healthy, sleep well and primp myself up with nice clothes and accessories , etc. I don’t like to look drab. Taking care of myself makes me feel alive and ready to rumble, ha. Wish I can be more expressive in here but it’s too public.
My back is still bad, but I can walk around as much as I did before , it just when I bend that it hurts. Taking injections for osteoporosis, it’s receded to osteopenia. Which is good, hey what do you expect from an old lady? Ha. I feel good, look good, and have a lot of enthusiasm in me to share with some younger people I know and they appreciate me . Not giving up, not yet!
I wish everyone in LWL well, specially health and peace of mind. I thought love was the most wanted commodity for me, but no, that valuable and precious commodity is PEACE!!!!
Have a great weekend.
Gosh, you’re back, Nisor! My beautiful, flamboyant, spirited champion, Nisor, is back‼️
Your soulful singing and dancing are exuding through your words, which just inspired me to ramble again… 😊
“I was scrolling and found LWL video and decided to visit you guys.”
Thank you for coming to visit us. I guess you haven’t followed most of old-timers’ whereabout/developments — nothing ever stands still❗️ But it’s the utterly important to FIRST heal/recover ourselves from LE, through/with whatever means. Again, I’m so happy that your absence has healed your painful LE and brought you grand peace.✌️
“I thought love was the most wanted commodity for me, but no, that valuable and precious commodity is PEACE!!!!”
In many ancient and modern cultures, PEACE is considered most valuable and precious commodity. The “love” that takes away one’s inner peace is absolutely NOT Real Love; LE is not Love, but basic Mania (in Greek), even between two willing and available limerents. Real love, with meaningful words and concrete actions, begins only after desirous LE fades away, hopefully with its root eradicated❗️
In LwL or outside, peace is little experienced and insufficiently praised. Most movies and pop songs rave/lament about LE high, reverie, pains, and unhealthy romance, mistaking them for relationship necessities. Those who come out of on the other side know that true, colorful joys and real love (mindfully giving and receiving) can only spring from PEACE permeating in one’s chest. That’s where I am now.
“you’re as always very exciting and kind.”
Me? 😳 Thank you. It’s not all me, but my Granny and Dad still living in me. Their spirit just comes back more often after my LE root is gone. There is much room inside me to be whatever I want to be, may be even an occasional chameleon 🤭 for others’ needs/wants?
“Yes, I have been absent for quite awhile, I was spending too much time with the site when I needed to look inside myself more. “
Yes, this site has made a lot of us deeply examine 🔎 ourselves — who we were, are, could be, and all sorts of whys. “Know Thyself” is the most meaningful and important purpose in one’s life, in the ancient or modern time. Otherwise, one suffers all sorts stresses/pains through life without understanding why and keeps repeated same, painful mistakes, ie. Limerence ❤️🔥
“I can tell you that the only way out for me was to wade in the formidable pain, like a hug in the mud. “
Indeed! The way to cure mental/emotional pains is not to go around them, or repress/silence them, but “wade in”, push through, and then rise from them. That’s what C. Jung always advocated, which is a heart/mind-wrenching process and which taking mental/emotional “painkillers” (all sorts of substance addictions, sugar, and addictive behaviors) would not help true healing ❤️🩹.
“There were difficult times and times of respite, as I have this sort of protest, feeling that I had been cheated or robbed of something that I had a right to, that it was not the natural order of things.”
Coming from the East, I was very puzzled by your “protests” back then… 😵💫 Having a clear vision now is so fulfilling and “homecoming”, isn’t it?
“Go figure. Life doesn’t owe me anything, it’s what we make of it, the decisions we make at a particular time in our lives . “
Now, you’re a true Stoic 🫂 It’s not other people or the world at large (inducing our irreversible past), but how we react and act to whatever has happened to us, which decides our life quality, or our “fate”.
Now, LO is not the problem — anyone can become a LO, but HOW their limerent treat him/her is the MAIN issue. If we can’t treat them as round fellow human beings, not only we suffer, and our LOs “suffer”, too, when/if they try to respond or reciprocate (aside from insecure Sensors or self-centered/narc LOs)….
“I’ve been blessed because I have been loved and appreciated by many, but many didn’t get to know me well, or the vastness of my awesomeness , ie LO. “
I do! I’m lucky to get to your awesomeness 💕! For me, it’s most important to know who one was, am, and could be. Others’ opinions (love, hated, indifference, etc) are always their own business — strictly in their mind or their individually tinted lens, which one should not live for.
“But that’s fine now, I no longer care or worry what he might think of me or what could have been. Though he told me he had good memories of me. That’s that.”
Then, just take his words for their face value‼️ What he might think of you or “what could have been” are much less important than WHAT you think of yourself HERE and NOW❗️
“I’m so glad you’re doing well and see you’re really cheerful about it. That’s my girl!”
I’m not only cheerful about it, but substantially grateful and soaking in its powerful consequent effect, which has brought back some of my old feisty, fearless traits and is also creating new parts in me — exceeding what loving, Stoic Granny and Dad have left me, and on top of which building my own envisioned Neverland in my reality… I wouldn’t let those fairies 🧚 ever die in my “kingdom”. 😆
“You deserve much more because you’re a beautiful delicate soul and willing to learn. By the way, how’s your piano lessons? Your work? Your travels?”
I have a “delicate” soul (perhaps during LE)? 😳 Some restful “ghosts” might jump out to loudly protest 🫣 and refute your assessment…. Yes, I’m always willing to learn and learning just about every minute in my life, through which I know for sure, no one else is standing still in the same spot of the life river. We all change and “evolve” regardless we want it to or not. It’s the Nature of all beings and all things❗️
My piano has NOT progressed as I’ve wished, but I didn’t stop practicing what I’ve already learned and all the chords, so my fingers won’t become stiff again. My work with the new institute is going well, they created another class for me in the Fall. I so enjoy preaching to and “brainwashing” young minds … 🤭
Last spring in 2025, I visited Italy, and wished so much I knew where you were, so I could pay a visit to you for a couple of days. I no longer like leisure travel by myself; if I had a SO, I’d go anywhere at any time with him.
“I’m spending more time in mindfulness, being in present time, appreciating the colors again, as there was a long period of time my life felt colorless. Traveling a bit and looking forward , by early November , to go again somewhere in Europe. “
What you’re doing is enviable. I know what you mean about colorless and so glad that your present life is so colorful, which could be only reached after LE is truly gone. It’s a pity that most, still in pain or in its tail, could not foresee colorful life after LE; to some, only LE high/reverie/pain was/is able to make them feel alive — what a pitiful way to feel “alive”⁉️
“Do You know Snow that I’m in my early eighties, and my LO is 89? We , meaning, me and my SO , could travel more but we cannot walk that much anymore.. . “
You sound like in your 40s! It just approves DrL’s theory that limerence can take place at any age. I still remember that touching story — “Arthur, 91, and Clara, 89, proved that romance has no age limit when they met on the London Underground. Catching each other’s eye across a crowded carriage, their connection was immediate. Six months later, they were married, proving that it is never too late to find the love of your life. “
“One thing I never lost was the ability to eat well, and stay healthy, sleep well and primp myself up with nice clothes and accessories , etc. I don’t like to look drab. “
I had a nasty fall while visiting Florence last spring and had another huge surgery last July. Ever since I had to do a lot of PT work, which in turn strengthened my muscle tones. I’m 95% recovered, but the PT work, walks, and dancing to BTS tempo stay with me, or I’d be definitely in bad mood or depression (due to lack of sweating movement).
In my living and working environment, people rarely primp themselves up for anything, so it’d be odd for me to do so. I go around in casual clothes without makeups (just eyeliner or lipstick if I work). I wish I live in an area/culture where people still primp themselves up, like in Italy or France, it’s so lovely to see!
“Taking care of myself makes me feel alive and ready to rumble, ha. Wish I can be more expressive in here but it’s too public.”
Why can’t you be more expressive about life here? Not taking care of oneself in all arenas is plainly unwise/foolish, which also indicates subtle depression or despair of some sorts. Talking aloud or writing silently is the must in my daily living, otherwise, I’d feel blue or lonely (with much stuck mental energy).
If no one is around to chat with me, I read aloud whatever prints in my hand. Enjoying living in one’s head with intellectual or creative activities never/rarely makes one feeling lonely.
“My back is still bad, but I can walk around as much as I did before , it just when I bend that it hurts. Taking injections for osteoporosis, it’s receded to osteopenia. Which is good, hey what do you expect from an old lady? “
That’s a good news! I was worried last time I heard about it. It’s also good to know that there is treatment for osteoporosis, which we may all get to later.
“Ha. I feel good, look good, and have a lot of enthusiasm in me to share with some younger people I know and they appreciate me . Not giving up, not yet!”
🆎 NOT yet! You’re my model in leading a joyful life! Please keep up your spirit and enthusiasm and courageously show all your fabulosity and awesomeness to us, it’s so refreshing and inspiring! 💐 (very few recovered limerents are still here, they moved on in reality)
Nisor, have a fabulous weekend and every day!
Edits:
“it’s most important to know who one was, IS, and could be. Others’ opinions/emotions (love, hated, indifference, etc) are always their own business — strictly in their head, subjectively obtained/perceived/imagined/judged… through their individual, tinted lens, which WE, mature adults, should NOT live or care for.”
Others include flawed LO, who is our equal, NOT a demigod /demigoddess, or a personal judge, or a surrogate parent (primarily in my case).
Nisor,
Nice to see you again.
Snow, how are you doing today?
I’m connecting in here because there’s no reply button under your msg.
It seems a lot of things are happening to you, good and bad. Uh, that fall while vacationing is awful! Were you taken to a hospital in Florence? You were alone?
And why the operation last July, was it due to the fall?
I hope you had some help during this trying time. It’s not the hospitals I hate , but the coming back home to take care of oneself when one is disabled and in pain. Everyone, at some point in theirs lives, has to go through something like that. I have, and survived! Good thing with the body is that it has its own healing mechanisms. You’re young and will recover fast enough to do a tango dance.
The good news, I noticed , is that you have a new job, and it seems they appreciate you enough to create a new class for you. That’s something great! And, yes, you have the unique opportunity to spread to your students the lessons you have learned in life , specially Stoicism. This generation has been taught that they’re entitled to everything in life and want quick gratification without any effort on their part . Go ahead and brainwash them with good stuff so they don’t stay flaky.
It’s great to hear you’re free of the LE and the roots that helped cause it. You have done the work, you didn’t let it paralyze you in anyway , didn’t play the victim, instead pushed forward with all your strength and courage, and that’s why you’re where you’re now.
Now, you’re like the song thrush, singing 🎵 the beautiful melody of victory! Well done Snow!
Keep practicing whatever you’ve learned from your piano lessons. Someday, you’d have free time to continue them.
Have a joyful day.
Hi Nisor,
Thank you for the lovely message, just came in time when a regional text warning of a thunderstorm/flood arrived and then followed by a much needed shower. I took a cozy nap accompanied by the wild rain — one of my favored activities.
“It seems a lot of things are happening to you, good and bad. Uh, that fall while vacationing is awful! Were you taken to a hospital in Florence? You were alone?”
Yes, a lot of things happened to me, mostly positive even with the Florentine fall and the Summer surgery — they’re NOT mental or emotional stresses, merely physical which were rarely big problems for me to deal with.
That fall deserved an ambulance and local Italians were very nice and helpful, but I didn’t want to miss the scheduled visit to eye that “DAVID”. So I limped to the museum and stared at HIM with the left bleeding arm and ligament tearing in the thigh and hip (now 95% recovered after the 10 months’ sweating PT. 👍) If one had to pay such a price to have an glimpse of the perfect, untouchable male body in marble, what do we have to pay to touch and spin a breathing male torso🤔 ⁉️
“And why the operation last July, was it due to the fall?”
No, unrelated. It’s a big false alarm (“positive” on medical exam for prior 3 years) for a possible cancer. I didn’t want to live in a constant anxiety or fear, so to have the entire organ taken out. No existing or developing cancer found, lucky me! I just have to live with a big scar, no more bikini.
I made a fuss in LwL last year, and got a lot of heart-warming supports and cheers! My mother was around to help me pull open the heavy door downstairs so I could take walks in the nearby park from the day 3 after the surgery. My body was always tough and flexible healing fast on any medical problems, although is slowing down lately. But Tango swing or BTS spin are still fine.
“The good news, I noticed , is that you have a new job, and it seems they appreciate you enough to create a new class for you. That’s something great! “
You already left when XLO and me both got laid off along with other 80 faculty members? That was definitely a fortune in disguise, without which I’d never get rid of my XLE. I got another position offer within the summer break. I’m becoming more comfortable with the new school culture and its student body (more from low-income and immigrant families), who need more educational “parenting”.
“And, yes, you have the unique opportunity to spread to your students the lessons you have learned in life, specially Stoicism. “
I focus Stoic practices on myself at daily basis. Like anyone else, I still have anxiety, irritation, and blues, but they are smaller and last much short nowadays, because I’d constantly analyze their causes in my head — heat, physical discomfort, someone else’s stories, their thoughts /sentiments, my miscommunication/misunderstanding, small/big anticipation for the near future (rarely looking at the past), positive /negative imagination, random/wild rumination etc… Stoic views help me distinguish what’s within or out of “My Control”, thus let go the latter, and focus on the former Here and Now.
“This generation has been taught that they’re entitled to everything in life and want quick gratification without any effort on their part . Go ahead and brainwash them with good stuff so they don’t stay flaky.”
I can’t agree with you more on this “instant gratification” culture. However, most of students in my current school are NOT from wealthy or idol background (with “the first world” issues), so the sense of entitlement is sharply less than the previous private school. They’re surprisingly easy-going, optimistic and very friendly. Part-time working students make more efforts and are more achieving. (of course, there are lazy ones whose family living on the government welfare system).
“It’s great to hear you’re free of the LE and the roots that helped cause it. You have done the work, you didn’t let it paralyze you in anyway , didn’t play the victim, instead pushed forward with all your strength and courage, and that’s why you’re where you’re now.”
I come from an action/solution oriented culture, so I was very eager and determined to discover and remove the cptsd and LE pains (unknown to me back then). I didn’t want those horrible anxiety and panic attacks that were crippling, making one helplessly feel/think victimized. I found Stoic and IFS (Internal Family System) to study even before landing in LwL.
“Now, you’re like the song thrush, singing 🎵 the beautiful melody of victory! Well done Snow!”
In my upbringing with Granny and Father, I didn’t severely lack optimism, strength or courage (I was a fearless adventurers in many matters), but my knowledge in psychology, philosophy and mental health was very limited. I’m still learning more about emotional intelligence and social skills (I’m not good at small talks and too comfortable going around alone).
I just realized at this second that today is 3 year anniversary I came to LwL! 😊 Wow, I’m very happy and proud for my victory over LE war! (I don’t feel any danger of slipping into another LE, the root is gone!)
Thank you, DrL, for all your work! And my deep gratitude to the LwL community, without which I can’t be at where I Am!
Nisor, Have a joyful week! I hope it’s not too hot in your area.
🫂
To understand oneself is literally the meaning of life.
https://youtu.be/tWDcqt-Xj2w?si=OFp4GP-WdWAncfbD — The uncomfortable question you should ask on every first date
How to be less romantic but a bit wiser in love?
https://youtu.be/kRMcimuuk0Q?si=nDkkWDbMViJLNJZ1 — Love is a skill, not a feeling
To Miss Snow:
Thank you for posting this. Excellent advice. I won’t be going on any first dates, but I still enjoyed it very much.
Miss Norma 🏠,
I think de Botton’s advice is not limited to dating, but to “Know Thyself”, one of key ancient Greek wisdoms.
Knowing, understanding, and embracing one’s current Selfs inevitably involve digging, comprehending, and accepting one’s imperfect past, especially one’s childhood and upbringing, with and through which we have arrived at our present Selfs.
Based on my own experiences, without this self-knowledge through psychotherapy or by oneself, each of us is doomed to ignorantly going through in life, suffering all sorts of mental/emotional stresses/pains, e.g. limerence or spousal conflicts/breakups, and unavoidably fail in dating/interacting/relating with others in substantial, fulfilling ways.
Many of us are ignorant of what we (can) bring to the relationship/friendship table, and of what we truly WANT/DESIRE from a healthy friendship/love relationship. I avoid using the word, “NEED” at all costs in friendship/relationship. No one should be or want/desire an emotional handicap/“parasite”, like ignorantly, indirectly expressed in some unhealthy pop songs. The more emotional/mental NEEDS from others, the more insecurity, stresses and sufferings one undergoes, one after another.
Having vulnerabilities or even red flag (both Adam and Eve had) is totally human, and it’s wise and mentally healthy to know them ourselves before/while we interact and relate to others, especially those we like/love/desire.
De Botton also points out that it Requires interacting with others to know our Selfs, we can’t sit in a room alone and discover who we are presently. Without a human “mirror” — therapist, friend, colleague/acquaintance, one’s SO/MFF, even rival/enemy, we could never see the back of our head!
I used to skip posts here, but nowadays, I read them all, because they indirectly tell/reflect/mirror who I was/am and who I was/am not. Learning about the developing/evolving one’s Selfs and what one is/potentially is capable of (lovingly giving and receiving) are truly gratifying. I’m very grateful of LwL existence!
With authentic self-knowledge, unloaded past mental/emotional baggage, and guiding Stoic principles, one can Feel psychologically invincible and secure.
I am reminded of Maya Angelou’s wise words, “When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.”
If I were able to follow her advice, I would not be clumsily trying to extricate myself from limerence.
Since I am a painfully slow learner, I spent some time with LO at Starbucks this past Saturday. I sat next to him to his right, so obviously I am looking to my left to try to engage with him. Except, instead of looking at me, LO looks straight ahead at the baristas. More than once, he interrupted me to ask, “Did you see what the barista just did?” Well, of course I didn’t because I am looking at YOU, Dumba**.
Impossible to keep him engaged, either because he has ADD, or perhaps I’m boring? Regardless, LO pounded another nail or two into his own coffin, which is what I am trying to achieve with Limited Contact.
I will say that it is partially successful. My feelings about him are increasingly negative, although I am not doing very well with intrusive thoughts. Obviously I have a ways to go.
LO may have found a buyer for his house. It’s a famous baseball player, although I don’t know who he is. Unfortunately, the man needs a four-car garage and a gym, so I don’t know if those things are do-able. LO has no garage space. It’s all been converted into other rooms. Not sure if a celebrity wants to live on a regular street with no security gates? Not sure how to resolve the garage situation, either.
There’s so much useful information on this website and the ‘Smitten’ book. If only my limerent brain would put the information to use to get me out of this LE.
Today, I’m having a moment of mental clarity and have been questioning why I, as someone who’s married fall for another married person? It’s starting to seem so silly. Why did my limerent brain ever think this was a good idea??
Last week, I had another moment of mental clarity about him being my boss. Again, why would I have thought this was a good idea??
So I’m curious when your executive brain started to kick in and take control? When it did, how long did it take for the LE to end? When does the sanity return? When were you in a good place to begin purposeful living?
Liamf,
I’m glad that this site and the book “smitten” are helping you, you already sounded calmer than initially appearing here.
Once a moment of mental clarity appeared, more would follow if your mind can concentrate on those moments to make more logical neuron synapses to take place in the brain. Be prepared, your LE brain may feel tired/fatigued to focus.
As I told to others before, I’m not insightful or viscerally empathic in giving any practice advice to partnered limerents, but I think that knowing thyself, digging thine past to heal old psychological wounds, eradicating possible LE roots, etc, apply to most limerents, single or partnered. (You said you have some childhood stuff to work with, right?)
“ Why did my limerent brain ever think this was a good idea??”
Based on my limited LwL knowledge (haven’t finished ‘smitten’ yet), “limerent brain” in the altered state of LE, does NOT and is unable to “think” rationally, it’s like the mind is taken over by a “lizard brain” driven only by primal desires/instincts, consciously or subconsciously.
My XLE never went into an addiction phase, the rational mind like yours was there but I still couldn’t get out of the LE’s amber stage for a while. I could not foresee/believe that I’d ever get out of it, because the LE root — a lifetime Longing, was still present despite of the NC.
“So I’m curious when your executive brain started to kick in and take control?”
It depends on individual brain’s neural-wiring, LE-inflicted stage, and cultural mindset (my anti-Romanticism COO trained us logical thinking and self-control since very young age. Compared to most Westerners, we’re more Stoic-like and drastically less willful or emotional). It sounds like your executive brain has started to kick in; but it may take some time to get into a newer habit of logical thinking that eventually “will take control the ‘wild horse’ of an untrained mind’ — my first Vipassana teacher’s words.
“When it did, how long did it take for the LE to end? When does the sanity return? “
I did/do not know how “insanity” would feel like, my XLE never went into that deep; however, it resisted to end due to its root, which cause I was vaguely aware. Then an unexpected “meteor” hit and shocked/shook the fuzzy, cloudy brain, which then firmly eradicated that Longing and LE through an active envision in a couple of hours, magical!
So I wonder if something totally unexpected/extraordinary could also yank you out of your LE! However, it’s necessary to know first what’s possible root(s) of your LE. Are you clear about it/them?
“When were you in a good place to begin purposeful living?“
For me, it’s definitely AFTER Longing and LE left. Despite of my strong willpower and cultural upbringing, my mind couldn’t begin purposeful living, as if the LE root was blocking the entire new path.
You mentioned that you need your job and your marital life is not all that peachy, but can you do something drastically to temporarily suspend your current environment, e.g. ask for a vacation to visit a faraway land abroad without SO, or a parachute jump (tightly held by an expert)? Then perhaps your mind can be shocked/distracted enough to get out of its LE loop?
I’m just throwing some random ideas. Please don’t get upset if they’re inappropriate to your reality.
Best wishes!
LIAMF,
I am three years in to my LE, and now in the foothills.
I regained a bit of executive control one year in. Before that I was ruled mainly by ‘lizard brain’. I think the thoughts you describe currently having, where the rational brain starts to ask serious questions, were what I had at the one year stage.
I then continued to dice with it for another 9ish months. I think I only really killed it in my head around the 20 month mark. This was after many months talking about it on LwL and acquiring wisdom from here. The best nuggets I got were about consciously trying to attend to the LO’s flaws (in a fairly natural way, not forced or fake devaluation), and trusting that where the brain goes, the emotions eventually follow, but with a delay (turned out both bits were true).
The biggest thing though that made me kill hope was that my LE started to feel like a real and present threat to my relationship with my SO. Not (I don’t think) because she figured it out, but because I no longer had it in me to split myself (my reality and my mind) between two people like I was doing. This made me tell my LO, without a full on disclosure, that I needed to step back from our ‘friendship’ for a time.
After several months of that, we managed to get on pretty good terms and have stayed there for the last year plus. We have both stopped any ‘encouraging’ behaviours. I still have embers / reminders of attraction to her, but they are no longer at the front of my mind, not bothering me much, etc. If the opportunity for NC was there, I could totally end it now.
Summary – 12 months to regain some level of exec function, 20 to get it back properly, and now at 38 with this ‘long tail’, but that bit has been orders of magnitude less of a problem.
The pace is different for everyone and can’t be forced. Holding it in a holding pattern while with a partner is hard – I feel for you. There is an old blog post from the early years of this site about that. When I have more time I will try and find it and post a link below.
Good luck and solidarity as you work through it.
Time for another of my dreary updates on LO. Cover your eyes, Miss Snow.
I am pleased to report that LO is supplying me with enough negativity to keep me at arm’s length. I saw him yesterday and he wanted to discuss the President’s speech this past Thursday night. I was appalled to learn that he disapproved of most networks’ decision NOT to air it live. Also, that he believes many of the President’s evidence-free claims about election interference from China.
Well. That’s enough to send anyone running.
The huge flaw in my plan, of course, is that I am depending on LO. As long as LO behaves badly, I seem to be okay. That’s putting the responsibility on him rather than myself.
Aside from that, the limerence seems to be down to a dull roar, which is manageable. Not out of the woods, but not a lot of discomfort.
I think I enjoy the camaraderie here more than feeling like I need the help to get past the limerence.
Miss Norma 🏠,
Reading your posts has been my steady Stoic homework, and my grades have gone up so much compared to last year! So thank you for your writing.
Have a nice weekend in your preferred way!
I love you too, Miss Snow.
I’m here to listen 👂 and learn 📖…
Be strength 💪 , peace ☮️ , and love❣️always with you!
🙂
I really thought it would be over by now.
7 months…
without seeing her
without hearing her voice
without hearing about her thoughts, as we go for our walk
without smelling her hair, smelling the nape of her neck
without touching her
instead…
I still say her name 40 times a day
everything reminds me of her
she is in my dreams still
and I awake in the middle of the night thinking about her
This is a rather unpleasant version of hell
To NTL:
I have been thinking about you and wondering how you are.
Do you feel you’re making any progress at all?
Hi Norma
I have been reading your posts…. I am hoping you are getting better.
I was until about a month ago… now suffering
To NTL:
Thank you for asking about me. Yes, I am lots better. Still limerent, but not in a lot of pain anymore.
Somewhat satisfied with my progress, although it’s been more than three years.
Spending time with LO is what has done the trick for me. He is completely unsuitable as a friend, for numerous reasons, many of which I have detailed in my posts.
Hoping for improvement and recovery for you.
NTL,
What is a pleasant version of hell?
Here is the link to Dr L’s video, Don’t Fight it — https://youtu.be/MK6q5KuOvIc?si=q0ozzkzIotAEzdku
The more you fight unwanted, the stronger it gets.
Perhaps you can try another approach? — Take whatever thoughts and emotions (about her) into your mind/dreams as Winds, picture a giant windmill spinning in your head, and then turn Winds to power your purposeful living, in whatever your preferred forms.
Would you give it a try to see if it could somehow work?
Good luck! 🙂
Hi and thanks for the reply
What an interesting mental image! I shall try it
The metaphor of Wind as intrusive thoughts comes from DrL.
Buddhists sit still internally watch the Wind coming and going.
Don Quixote, our first, biggest Romanticism hero in Action, gallantly fought with the Windmill as enemy; of course, he lost!
Imaginative limerents can creatively/intellectually spin LE Windmill to power their chosen, meaningful living/activities.
Let us know your experiments results. 🍀
You know, as I re-read this…. it sounds very selfish of me.
Of course, she is better of without me in her life, I know this
By definition, Lim mind/Lizard brain is HIGHLY self-centered, anxious/suspicious, unstable, … swinging from Heaven (ecstasy) to Hell (despair) depending on LO’s superficial/irrelevant words. Without those symptoms, you’re NOT in LE.
Please don’t be too hard on yourself.
In terms of her life quality, you, anyone else, or even herself would NOT know in advance. From a Stoic point of view, we could only know about our Here and Now, besides some subjective truth about our own past…
Sorry I couldn’t help contradict your point a little bit… 🙂
Feel better soon!
Hello
I dont know you , of course. But I have read MANY of your posts here.
You seem to have an inciteful and intelligent mind.
I appreciate your input and ideas, for sure.
As regards to myself, I have a pretty strong ego about myself.
It is with my personal interactions with others that I care about, …. that I have basically zero self esteem. I don’t know why LO ever speaks with me, or why she initiated our long walks at work. Baffles me… she could do SO much better that me.
Hi,
“I dont know you , of course. But I have read MANY of your posts here.”
I hope my posts were a bit helpful, at least not upsetting. I remember I spoke with you once when you first came last year(?), you couldn’t stop crying on a weekend because of missing your LO too much, which made me baffled. … What were the nature of those tears? Are you still crying a lot nowadays? 🤔
“You seem to have an inciteful and intelligent mind.”
I am genuinely curious since little (inherited from Granny and Father), and from a culture that stresses on goals, actions and achievements, instead of fleeting or obsessive emotions, which are considered weak or useless. (Of course, these two tendencies both have their strength and shortcomings… a topic for later perhaps)
“I appreciate your input and ideas, for sure.”
You’re welcome. To be frank, some of your earlier posts triggered something in me (perhaps also upset some other posters…), and I then skipped many later ones and responses to your posts.
So now I don’t have a full picture of your LE story, only remember you and your LO both married, she’s a 30 years younger colleague? You treated her like your never-existed daughter, after your step-daughter, and an adopted daughter… You don’t have your children with your wife?
“As regards to myself, I have a pretty strong ego about myself.”
“It is with my personal interactions with others that I care about, …. that I have basically zero self esteem.”
I don’t understand what “strong ego about oneself” means while having “zero self-esteem”. Would you please explain this further, which would help me understand your LE case?
“I don’t know why LO ever speaks with me, or why she initiated our long walks at work. Baffles me… she could do SO much better that me.”
“That me” or “than me”? I need to learn more about your story from the beginning (Glimmer?) to today (sorry I can’t remember all facts in all your posts)…. When did you realize you slipped into LE? What about/in her that pulled you to those long walks? What sorts of hard time she’s been dealing? And What sort of stuff she sometimes revealed to you? What did you feel or think after interacted with her?
I remember you disclosed to your wife about your LE, and your relationship with her has improved ever since, right? Does she know that you’re still in contact with LO via Instagram?
NTL,
“As regards to myself, I have a pretty strong ego about myself.
It is with my personal interactions with others that I care about, …. that I have basically zero self esteem. I don’t know why LO ever speaks with me, or why she initiated our long walks at work. Baffles me… she could do SO much better that me.”
I went back to some of your posts to see what I skipped or missed in your story. While still not clear enough about your case, I’m trying to guess answers to your questions. Please be foretold: I don’t know enough you or your Friend to have insightful answers; I can only speculate/guess based on my case and my background. Please forgive me if whatever I say is off mark in any regards. (Any misunderstanding due to insufficient data should be considered and expected).
Based on C. Jung, ego has two kinds: Smart Ego (w/ the capital E, directing one’s own behaviors in a purposeful living) and unwise ego (the mainstream concept, associated with vanity, insecurity, and self-centered….)
Your Ego sounds like is based on your talents, trained skills, and characters/personality, ie. caring, curiosity, patience, open-mindedness, honesty, fairness, and strong wills/disciplines to do beneficial things for yourself and others, and more. Based on your own words, you seem to be quiet, shy, anxious, and insure in relating to others?
Your Friend: Married, much younger, more educated, with a higher position at your old job and is from a “non-compatible” culture. Meanwhile, she had/have some personal or family (?) issues, going through some very tough time. During your interactions in person and in IG, she shared 75% herself and you 25% of yourself (which I am still unclear what exactly you shared with her based on your old posts, but I trust your first-hand information.)
Now, here is my wild (can be very wrong) guesses about her attitude towards you—
1. She has a measuring stick (to assess you and others) that is culturally different from your other peers at work/home and from your own upbringing. Please don’t underestimate pros and cons of his difference.
2. She likes and values something in you that others have overlooked or don’t care, ie. Your talents, skills, and personality traits, etc. Did she ever (in)directly tell you so?
3. She felt safe, comfortable, and even preferable in taking long walks with you and letting you be touchy-feely with her, which tells me that you two had some chemistry (as mysterious as Glimmer), which no others could tell how and why, even if they stand in front of you.
4. You have a trustworthy, patient, non-judgmental ear that enabled her to tell you her confidential personal issues (ie. loneliness). She must have felt your listening is very helpful in some spiritual, mental/emotional ways. I’m not sure how much opinions or advice you’ve given her?
An active, non-judgmental listening itself can be very therapeutic to the speaker/monologuer. (I guessed this according to my non-responded monologue to my XLO. Because I just wishfully imagined his responses with his little response; it’s actually my own imaginative mind that cured my cptsd, XLO served as my human “cane”).
5. You said that she knows that you really love her (as a father figure), then she must have felt truly appreciated and well-cared (she had inadequate parents, right?). I sense that she genuinely liked/loved your “fatherly love” (thus initiated and insisted on so many lunch walks); but your marital status and hers prevented her from directly expressing so.
6. On the other hand, you shared much less while providing her needed/wished emotional/mental support, which could be felt as a bit patronizing (also due to the age difference)? When my XLO listened to my initial complaints without giving his responses or sharing his mind, I accused him in writing for being patronizing me. But he insisted it’s improper or too private to share; I was very pissed but couldn’t make any protest. To me, he didn’t treat me even as an equal, fair, and trustable friend (when I boldly trusted him). In the end, we remained as superficial colleagues-friends, nothing more.
7. You sound quite altruistic in always considering for your Friend’s wellbeing. But your inadequate sharing, imo, could also have brought your own tears/pains. You shared only your intense “fatherly love” for her but not your personal life, ie the gray/problematic home life. That’s a repression of your own emotional/mental needs, because you felt very comfortable to be with her and able to share with her (not anyone else), but you didn’t do it.
She might be very respectful not pressuring you to open up, but have you ever thought that your trust in her as a confidant and personal sharing could make her feel MORE needed and appreciated, which in turn could possibly help distract and ease her existing problems? To Feel genuinely needed, wanted and appreciated is universal, healthy human wish and need.
8. In my COO, without any religion/God, we’re first trained to rely on ourselves — on one’s own talents, skills, intelligence and healthy body. Then we’re taught to first give and then take; give more and take less. However, what to give others is artistic, philosophical, and spiritual — grains or a skill to farm? existing answers, or a series of questions leading to one’s own answers? a passive listening or active encouraging or inspiring other side’s thinking/creating?…
9. Unlike AI, I would NOT advise a cold turkey cut with your Friend. If only Friendship is available in your dynamic, and your Friend still needs/appreciates your ear, then cutting off IG is “selfish” and might be harmful to her or both of you. I would endure my own pains to leave the window open but NOT actively push for written chats. I think that’s human with an open mind/heart, that’s a true altruism — thinking for others’ needs first, then one’s own.
10. I think DrL has praised or recommended the movie trilogy “Before…” (it’s definitely worthy of watching). It so visually, artistically show the utter importance of open, courageous, honest, and spontaneous communication between loving, open-minded friends/couples.
I’ve witnessed in person, in books, in media that a majority of relationship failure is due to miscommunications and consequential erroneous treatment of each other. Then unwillingness to continuously learn/teach each other, renew self and grow together also cause relationship breakups.
Alina de Botton and Esther Perez think/advocate that compatibility is learned and obtained during the relationship building. Cultural differences, with similar core values, can bring a huge amount of refreshing air or excitement….
That’s all I can think of now. Sorry if my rambling sounds like a sleep-talking/walking. I hope it could somehow help reduce your wondering or LE pains, even just a little bit. 🙂
Wish you doing better!
Edit:
“Pros and cons of THIS difference”.
“Alain de Botton”.
Sorry, another big typo (auto correction): “you seem to be quiet, shy, anxious, and Insecure in relating to others?
Adding one point: people with incompatible cultural background could also frustratingly misunderstand you, or incapable of sufficiently comprehending your cultural and personal ‘markers’.
The key to build meaningful/fulfilling human connection, even among strangers, IS fearless, open communication, like shown in the trilogy, “Before…”. And the Stoic mindset of letting go of outcomes while making efforts and keeping hopes is vastly helpful — my understanding of the trilogy.
I am so sorry to hear this, but recovery can take a very long time, years, as you can see from Dr L’s writings and the collective experiences of so many commenters. But if you are in total NC, that is the right path! Please keep it up!
thanks for the reply
we still often ( 2 or 3 times a week ) chat in instagram
So in your weekly chats with LO in SM, you didn’t ”hear about her thoughts”? Or the chats just remained superficial, since you couldn’t disclose your true feelings for her?
NC in reality but not in SM makes LE worse, because one’s imaginations, without checked/balanced by realistic visceral/sensory inputs, tend to go wild, in both (positive & negative) directions.
Seneca wrote: “We suffer more often in imagination than in reality.”
Clarification: ”one’s imagination, especially limerents’ heightened imaginations, merely based on LO’s words (w/o context), unchecked/unbalanced by realistic, visceral/sensory knowledge, tend to go wild… “
Hello
you are correct, they remain “superficial” for the most part.
She knows my true feeling for her, I have told her that I truly Love her ( as a daughter ) several times.
I know how it sounds when I describe smelling her hair, or physical touch…. but I am a very physical and sensory person…. she knows I am not being “creepy” but just being present and affectionate
It for the most part, was only during our long walks that she would open up… rambling chats, some deeper ideas and feelings from her life. She knew / knows that I care about her and her thoughts, and that I am a trusted confidant
but as I say, I am being selfish and feeling sorry for myself. I am just terribly missing my “daughter”
by the way…. do any other Limerents think of LO as a daughter or father figure?????
I dont think I have ever read anyone else express that feeling to LO
To NTL:
Nope. My LO is Hot Man Candy, and I have told him that to his face.
I also told him that I lust after him. He said, “The straight part of me lusts after you, too.”
I said, “Yeah, the non-existent part.”
Ntl
I have an actual Daughter who is now 20. My LO and LF are 31. Both young enough to be my Daughter. People have even mistaken LF as my Daughter in the way we are around each other. Which I suppose comes off as Father-ly/Daughter-ly, yet it is really anything but. I have never wanted to love or be with either of them, like a Daughter. I don’t ever talk to LF like I do to my Daughter. However I would protect both of them like I would my Daughter.
I think it is dangerous territory you go into when you mention you love your LO “AS” a Daughter. Smelling hair, any sort of touch is only increasing your infatuation with this person. Way beyond of what would be considered normal Father/Daughter relationship etiquette.
You might be the type of person who desires or craves/needs this but I think you also know this goes way beyond of what is actually proper. How would your Wife feel if she caught you in this act? LO may know or believe beyond a doubt you’re not being creepy but I also feel as if she’s enabling it. I mean she’s married also correct? Half your age?
I see red flags all over.
🚩🚩
I miss my Daughter when she is away at college but I never miss her in the way you describe when you can’t be with LO. It doesn’t cause me heartache and pain. I’ve definitely never been touchy/feely with my Daughter either. It’s not necessary or right.
It’s ok to say you’re madly in love with this young Woman. Your LO. I get this. Nobody here is going to crucify you for it. Just be fair about it. There’s something definitely not happening in your marriage, that you need to address. This is not fair to your Wife. Consider this Womans issues problematic also, if she continues with you in same manner. Neither of your SOs deserve the deception.
This will be a long reply… thank you for your “inquisitive ” post
Seneca wrote :“We suffer more often in imagination than in reality.” …. very true for me.
————————————
NTL,
“As regards to myself, I have a pretty strong ego about myself.
It is with my personal interactions with others that I care about, …. that I have basically zero self esteem. I don’t know why LO ever speaks with me, or why she initiated our long walks at work. Baffles me… she could do SO much better that me.”
I went back to some of your posts to see what I skipped or missed in your story. While still not clear enough about your case, I’m trying to guess answers to your questions. Please be foretold: I don’t know enough you or your Friend to have insightful answers; I can only speculate/guess based on my case and my background. Please forgive me if whatever I say is off mark in any regards. (Any misunderstanding due to insufficient data should be considered and expected).
Based on C. Jung, ego has two kinds: Smart Ego (w/ the capital E, directing one’s own behaviors in a purposeful living) and unwise ego (the mainstream concept, associated with vanity, insecurity, and self-centered….)
Your Ego sounds like is based on your talents, trained skills, and characters/personality, ie. caring, curiosity, patience, open-mindedness, honesty, fairness, and strong wills/disciplines to do beneficial things for yourself and others, and more. Based on your own words, you seem to be quiet, shy, anxious, and insure in relating to others?….. more Sad than Anxious
Your Friend: Married, much younger, more educated, with a higher position at your old job and is from a “non-compatible” culture. Meanwhile, she had/have some personal or family (?) issues, going through some very tough time. During your interactions in person and in IG, she shared 75% herself and you 25% of yourself (which I am still unclear what exactly you shared with her based on your old posts, but I trust your first-hand information.) : ALL correct ( I shared about my wife and my family, yes
Now, here is my wild (can be very wrong) guesses about her attitude towards you—
1. She has a measuring stick (to assess you and others) that is culturally different from your other peers at work/home and from your own upbringing. Please don’t underestimate pros and cons of his difference./// I understand, and VERY much appreciate how other people with differences from me ( gender, age, culture, race , education, etc ) will see life and the world in a way that I do not…. its is a wonderful thing! It is what made our walks ( and talks! ) so special to me… learning all about her and how she sees the world.
2. She likes and values something in you that others have overlooked or don’t care, ie. Your talents, skills, and personality traits, etc. Did she ever (in)directly tell you so?/// She has never told me anything at ALL like that… I have NO idea really what she thinks of me.( but I have heard her speak affectionately about others at work… I admit that makes me a bit Jealous ) hmmmmmm…..
3. She felt safe, comfortable, and even preferable in taking long walks with you and letting you be touchy-feely with her, which tells me that you two had some chemistry (as mysterious as Glimmer), which no others could tell how and why, even if they stand in front of you./// 🙂 I am going to have to think about this! Yes, I think we had / have a Bond
4. You have a trustworthy, patient, non-judgmental ear that enabled her to tell you her confidential personal issues (ie. loneliness). She must have felt your listening is very helpful in some spiritual, mental/emotional ways. I’m not sure how much opinions or advice you’ve given her? //// I am more of a Listener than an Advice giver! I think I flatter myself that I was / am a good emotional support for her. ( she has been through a LOT… she is kind of a HERO to me, for how she is as a person.
An active, non-judgmental listening itself can be very therapeutic to the speaker/monologuer. (I guessed this according to my non-responded monologue to my XLO. Because I just wishfully imagined his responses with his little response; it’s actually my own imaginative mind that cured my cptsd, XLO served as my human “cane”).//// that describes our conversations very well, I think. We talked about ALMOST everything
5. You said that she knows that you really love her (as a father figure), then she must have felt truly appreciated and well-cared (she had inadequate parents, right?). I sense that she genuinely liked/loved your “fatherly love” (thus initiated and insisted on so many lunch walks); but your marital status and hers prevented her from directly expressing so./// Oh I hope that is how she felt and feels…. it is what is in my heart towards her. ( a small story… we were once standing at a corner, waiting for the ight to change. There was situation with some cars that made me anxious, and my immediate instinctive reaction was to ” envelope her in my arms ” to protect her. The surprised and I think happy look on her face was nice ! )
No…. sadly her parents and childhood left MUCH to be desired. Breaks my heart, it really does. I quite mean that. Her speaking of this to me was painful for her, and I don’t think ever shared with others… but I think it helped her to tell me.
My Friend has never spoken to me openly and verbally about how she feels about me ( except a few times, in text, which I will keep private ).
This is why my Physical relationship with her is precious and important to me. She allowed nice tight close hugs, taking in her scents, and other touches, which I hope showed her comfort and affection for me.
In her culture, being like that with an adult male, outside her family, would be quite unheard of.
6. On the other hand, you shared much less while providing her needed/wished emotional/mental support, which could be felt as a bit patronizing (also due to the age difference)? When my XLO listened to my initial complaints without giving his responses or sharing his mind, I accused him in writing for being patronizing me. But he insisted it’s improper or too private to share; I was very pissed but couldn’t make any protest. To me, he didn’t treat me even as an equal, fair, and trustable friend (when I boldly trusted him). In the end, we remained as superficial colleagues-friends, nothing more. /// I was VERY open in my chats with her, she knows my life / mind well. However, 2 things…. she knows I NEVER repeat what we talk about, and 2) that I always speak the Truth to her
7. You sound quite altruistic in always considering for your Friend’s wellbeing. But your inadequate sharing, imo, could also have brought your own tears/pains. You shared only your intense “fatherly love” for her but not your personal life, ie the gray/problematic home life. That’s a repression of your own emotional/mental needs, because you felt very comfortable to be with her and able to share with her (not anyone else), but you didn’t do it./// she knows my home life well… we have almost no secrets. She has been a good and caring confidant.
She might be very respectful not pressuring you to open up, but have you ever thought that your trust in her as a confidant and personal sharing could make her feel MORE needed and appreciated, which in turn could possibly help distract and ease her existing problems? To Feel genuinely needed, wanted and appreciated is universal, healthy human wish and need.
8. In my COO, without any religion/God, we’re first trained to rely on ourselves — on one’s own talents, skills, intelligence and healthy body. Then we’re taught to first give and then take; give more and take less. However, what to give others is artistic, philosophical, and spiritual — grains or a skill to farm? existing answers, or a series of questions leading to one’s own answers? a passive listening or active encouraging or inspiring other side’s thinking/creating?… //// interesting
9. Unlike AI, I would NOT advise a cold turkey cut with your Friend. If only Friendship is available in your dynamic, and your Friend still needs/appreciates your ear, then cutting off IG is “selfish” and might be harmful to her or both of you. I would endure my own pains to leave the window open but NOT actively push for written chats. I think that’s human with an open mind/heart, that’s a true altruism — thinking for others’ needs first, then one’s own.//// amazing… I have had the same Thoughts about staying in contact with her. She is in Deep pain these days, and I wish to be there for her, regardless of how such limited contact is painful to me.
10. I think DrL has praised or recommended the movie trilogy “Before…” (it’s definitely worthy of watching). It so visually, artistically show the utter importance of open, courageous, honest, and spontaneous communication between loving, open-minded friends/couples./// I will look, thanks for the recommendation.
I’ve witnessed in person, in books, in media that a majority of relationship failure is due to miscommunications and consequential erroneous treatment of each other. Then unwillingness to continuously learn/teach each other, renew self and grow together also cause relationship breakups./// humans are Gifted with being able to communicate… it defines us ( music, dance, books, storytelling… even sharing ourselves over Hundreds of hours on Walks!!! )
Alina de Botton and Esther Perez think/advocate that compatibility is learned and obtained during the relationship building. Cultural differences, with similar core values, can bring a huge amount of refreshing air or excitement…. //// this is True.
That’s all I can think of now. Sorry if my rambling sounds like a sleep-talking/walking. I hope it could somehow help reduce your wondering or LE pains, even just a little bit. thank you.
NTL,
A quick reply to your recent posts.
“you are correct, they remain “superficial” for the most part.”
What she revealed doesn’t sound all that superficial. She sounds like definitely treating you as a trusted confidant.
“She knows my true feeling for her, I have told her that I truly Love her ( as a daughter ) several times.”
In this regard, I agree with MJ. All parents here would tell you that parental love is fundamentally different from Eros, (except maybe 0.01% ? of Oedipus complex in both sexes). Step/adopted parenthood, if not from birth/early childhood, is also different from the blood tie.
Speaking for myself, since my teens, I’ve never viewed anyone else as a father/mother figure, no matter how kind they are or appear. I mentally treated my younger XLO as a surrogate parent for a period of time, only because his patient, non-judgmental ear first helped me face the grief of losing my biological father and then deal with my cptsd.
“I know how it sounds when I describe smelling her hair, or physical touch…. but I am a very physical and sensory person…. “
Again, MJ clearly told how typical Westerners would feel/think about it. In the more conservative East, PAD (public affection display), in person or in writing, even between “legitimate” couples is frowned. Seeing or hearing about them would make our “hair standing up”, meaning very uncomfortable. To me, PAD is intimate matter strictly belonging to a couple’s private domain.
“she knows I am not being “creepy” but just being present and affectionate”.
It sounds like NOT in the physical sense to her (sounds like she even enjoys it from you, while refusing to take lunch walks with anyone else, why?). I know it’s NOT your case (since you two had a lot of walks and talks exchanging “superficial” or semi-superficial topics), but there is a type of psychological “creepiness” — one party reveals much less their internal self than the other side, which can make the latter feel “creepy”, especially if the former conceals within (with sounding reasons) romantic/LE affections for the latter.
“It for the most part, was only during our long walks that she would open up… rambling chats, some deeper ideas and feelings from her life. She knew / knows that I care about her and her thoughts, and that I am a trusted confidant”
Psychological “creepiness” or condescending air can occur in an unequal/unfair “friendship” — only one side is the trustworthy Confidant, while the other side also wants to be a trusted Confidant to the former. Did you reveal enough of your thoughts, sentiments, anxieties, struggles, etc (everyone has them)? Did she ever indirectly suggest or urge you to tell her more of your inner colors? If “NOT” to the both questions, how could such interactions be viewed as a true Friendship?
“but as I say, I am being selfish and feeling sorry for myself. I am just terribly missing my “daughter””
Would you please not address her as your “daughter”? 🙂 Your confessed emotions for her has gone Far beyond a parental love for a biological/adopted/step daughter/son. In the earlier posts, you referred her as “Friend”, which is more appropriate. Everyone in LwL can tell that she’s your LO/Friend, although you may not like the term, LO.
“by the way…. do any other Limerents think of LO as a daughter or father figure?????”
See the above paragraph. An envisioned parent figure in LE dynamic (or in a professional therapy) could serve a function to help deal with one’s dysfunctional childhood. But those LOs don’t realistically/logically walk around as a parent, even to inflicted limerents in the altered state of their mind.
“I dont think I have ever read anyone else express that feeling to LO”
Only me in the past repeatedly confessed that in the first 4.5 years of my XLE, I monologued in writing, while genuinely envisioning LO had an idealized parental ear (right after I suddenly lost my beloved Father). Towards the end, before the forced NC, I explained in person to xLO what I did and how it had psychotherapeutically worked, as a way to thank him.
One needs to be grateful to an enemy (a life lesson in Buddhism), even if the s/he accidentally helped us (a fate/karma?). That’s one virtue of my COO I still strive to follow.
I really hope my frankness won’t upset you. If it does, I’m sorry.
Edit:
“One needs to be grateful even to an enemy (always a life lesson in Buddhism), when/if s/he’s accidentally assisted us (a fate/karma?) in whatever fashion.
Sometimes, enemies’ unexpected “help” positively impacts much more than friends’ attentive hands, because the surprising “reward” cause a huge/maximum dopamine surge, sending one to Mount Olympia to drink with Zeus’ cupholders …. (paraphrased from “Smitten”)
In my opinion, while dealing with compatibility in an equal friendship/relationship (putting Eros aside for now), one’s biological age matters LESS than one’s psychological age 🟰mental maturity + emotional intelligence + personality (always evolving)
In a LE dynamic, if limerents have “dysfunctional” caregiver(s) in childhood, then LO could (sub)consciously serve as a surrogate parent, especially in LE’s early stages.
Let’s hypothesize here: if your 35 yrs LO is very mature and maternal, and you happened to have a “dysfunctional” mother, then she could be felt like a surrogate mother to you, although you’re biologically 30 years older.
Some male LwLers sound like subconsciously look for a surrogate “mommy” in their younger LOs, who were/are both a “ damsel in distress” and motherly simultaneously. 😀
Hello
No, not upset…. well, maybe a bit. It can be unsettling seeing yourself through someone else’s eyes.
I am very sorry if I offended or upset anyone on LwL 🙁 Such was never my intent. I shall NOT refer to her that way again.
I think it is a role I am more comfortable with, since I have difficulty thinking of myself as “friend ” worthy. But I will not repeat it.
On another note, I never cared for the term Limerence OBJECT ( LO ), I see it as de-humanizing. Just my opinion.
” Did you reveal enough of your thoughts, sentiments, anxieties, struggles, etc (everyone has them)? Did she ever indirectly suggest or urge you to tell her more of your inner colors? If “NOT” to the both questions, how could such interactions be viewed as a true Friendship? ” I would suggest few relationship are 50/50 balance. Ours was more like 75/25, with her as the 75, sharing herself.
In the end…. I think she and I are “drifting apart”… not a bad thing. Especially for her. 🙂 I am happy for her to move on.
To MJ –
” I think it is dangerous territory you go into when you mention you love your LO “AS” a Daughter. Smelling hair, any sort of touch is only increasing your infatuation with this person. Way beyond of what would be considered normal Father/Daughter relationship etiquette.
You might be the type of person who desires or craves/needs this but I think you also know this goes way beyond of what is actually proper. How would your Wife feel if she caught you in this act? LO may know or believe beyond a doubt you’re not being creepy but I also feel as if she’s Also enabling it. I mean she’s married also correct? Half your age?
I see red flags all over. ” I can see the flags too…. if I am honest with myself. But I still maintain anyone reading my mind would see I had no “bad ideas” during our walks.
If my wife had observed us walking… she would NOT have been happy. I was constantly touching Her to move her on our walks, and steering her. And we walked so close we were also bumping into each other. And yes, She is married and 30 years younger.
All in all…. it is best I think that I went NC 7 months ago
My wife and I have a non-intimate ( beyond good night hug and a kiss ) and still frequently bicker.
NTL,
“No, not upset…. well, maybe a bit. It can be unsettling seeing yourself through someone else’s eyes.”
I’m really sorry to “rattle your ground”. But I felt that speaking “truth” (of course, subjective) helps more in the long run. When I first came to LwL, I got an unbelievably tough critic, whose puzzling, hurtful words used to turn my daily life upside down with little/no understanding of mine. Taking the very bitter medicine, I repeatedly examined “the back of my head” to see what I was habitually missing. With that mirror dangling over my head, I worked hard to reform/renew and reinvent myself (especially after LE and its root gone).
“I am very sorry if I offended or upset anyone on LwL 🙁 Such was never my intent. I shall NOT refer to her that way again.”
Please keep all fond memory of her and your interactions (in realistic/imaginative fashions) in your mind or journal. The mainstream of both West and East is rightfully sensitive to public, social etiquettes. But, I’m from a different culture with a lot of biased opinions, so don’t take my views too seriously.
“I think it is a role I am more comfortable with, since I have difficulty thinking of myself as “friend ” worthy. But I will not repeat it.”
I see (as you said previously) that you don’t have enough confidence in socializing. But genuinely and bravely showing authenticity (w/ all our vulnerability), instead of playing any “role”, will lead us to right, true friends — who can in turn accept your true, evolving Selfs and share their authenticity with you. One such a friend/partner is probably enough for life; it takes mental/emotional training/work to be confident or secure in general.
“On another note, I never cared for the term Limerence OBJECT ( LO ), I see it as de-humanizing. Just my opinion.”
The same here! I “invented”, MFF/P — Mentally Fondled Friend/Person to substitute.
“I would suggest few relationship are 50/50 balance. Ours was more like 75/25, with her as the 75, sharing herself.
I agree with your observation in general. But besides quantity, quality of sharing also matters. Fewer substantial contents weight much more than a pile of superficial stuff; the former is easier to achieve in written communication.
“In the end…. I think she and I are “drifting apart”… not a bad thing. Especially for her. 🙂 I am happy for her to move on.”
Again, focus on and take care of yourself first in all arenas; when you feel good, you’ll bring joys to all around you. Like I argued before, quality of others’ life is NEVER whatever shows on the surface, but is measured by substance with its colors in mind! As a logical rule — we never know what’s going on in one’s head in any given moment, unless they tell us clearly.
“My wife and I have a non-intimate ( beyond good night hug and a kiss ) and still frequently bicker.”
That’s very, very sad. No wonder, you’re so drawn to your Friend, very understandable! Don’t feel negative about your normal needs and desires as a human being.
Sorry about any grammatical errors, I need to run this moment…
[Seneca wrote :“We suffer more often in imagination than in reality.” …. very true for me.]
In the future when imaginations, especially negative ones, kick in, could you try to picture Wind, Windmill, and Don Quixote in your head? Keep positive envisions while not let them “derail” your mind too much?
[Based on your own words, you seem to be quiet, shy, anxious, and insure in relating to others?….. “more Sad than Anxious”]
“Sad”? Is it situational or habitual (due to the social rejection)? Sadness has causes, usually about some situations beyond one’s control, ie. grief of loss. Stoic points of view could definitely help a great deal, which I know for sure and can attest to.
“ALL correct ( I shared about my wife and my family, yes”
Did you share your dark emotions/thoughts? I guess, you couldn’t disclose your LE feelings, masked by “fatherly love”.
“She has never told me anything at ALL like that… I have NO idea really what she thinks of me.( but I have heard her speak affectionately about others at work… I admit that makes me a bit Jealous ) hmmmmmm…..”
It’s not that hard to deduce her emotions and thoughts: who would spend so much long lunch hours, walking & talking, with someone s/he doesn’t like or think well enough? It’s actions that speak for her mind. How come you couldn’t sense it when you were with her?!
“I am going to have to think about this! Yes, I think we had / have a Bond”
Sounds like star-crossed lovers, despite the age gap? You may make some LwL male mid-lifer envious… Did you actually eat lunch or drink coffee together?
“I am more of a Listener than an Advice giver! I think I flatter myself that I was / am a good emotional support for her. ( she has been through a LOT… she is kind of a HERO to me, for how she is as a person.)”
By the given data and logic, your listening has supported her. “Hero” in a sense to save herself? But she still went to you to get emotional/mental support; were/are you trying to save “a damsel in stress? “
“that describes our conversations very well, I think. We talked about ALMOST everything”
Except the LE pains you were/are suffering. Understandable: you can’t disclose and don’t want her to worry.
“Oh I hope that is how she felt and feels…. it is what is in my heart towards her. ( a small story… we were once standing at a corner, waiting for the ight to change. There was situation with some cars that made me anxious, and my immediate instinctive reaction was to ” envelope her in my arms ” to protect her. The surprised and I think happy look on her face was nice ! )”
Sounds like you’re physically saving a “tough cookie” 🍪
“No…. sadly her parents and childhood left MUCH to be desired. Breaks my heart, it really does. I quite mean that. Her speaking of this to me was painful for her, and I don’t think ever shared with others… but I think it helped her to tell me.”
Vulnerably sharing one’s psychological wounds, with a trusted therapist or confidant, always helps release at least 60~80% of the pain; that’s how I healed my cptsd 95% towards the end of my XLE. Did you ever reveal all yours in your 25% of sharing?
“My Friend has never spoken to me openly and verbally about how she feels about me ( except a few times, in text, which I will keep private ).”
Perhaps it’s due to her culture or personality, in which verbal expression of love is a taboo or something? Also, she’s married, supposedly devoted to her husband. Perhaps she did not want to break a moral code, making your interactions as an open EA. Treating it as a Friendship is safe for the both sides, isn’t it?
“In her culture, being like that with an adult male, outside her family, would be quite unheard of.”
If that’s one of her cultural markers, I’m surprised that she could get used to your PAD.
“I was VERY open in my chats with her, she knows my life / mind well. However, 2 things…. she knows I NEVER repeat what we talk about, and 2) that I always speak the Truth to her”
You have a lot of confidence about what “she knows….” What does “never repeat” mean, repeating to her or others? How did/does she know/verify that you always spoke the truth? Did you have mutual colleague-friends at work? (she wasn’t your supervisor, right?)
“She knows my home life well… we have almost no secrets. She has been a good and caring confidant.”
Does such a level of trust in her helped reduce your stresses or disappointments at home/elsewhere? Does it bring you a sense of peace, decreasing your tears and anxiety?
[In my COO, without any religion/God, …”interesting”]
If we simply give already-made goods (especially intangible ones) to others, that’s considered condescending (charitable or egotistical) or encouraging mental/physical laziness. The goal is to give a “tool” to recipients to help themselves, to train/enhance their existing autonomy. It’s working this way in some Asian, Buddhist cultures, with few organized charity.
9. “amazing… I have had the same Thoughts about staying in contact with her. She is in Deep pain these days, and I wish to be there for her, regardless of how such limited contact is painful to me.”
In LwL, the top priority is to help limerents to get rid of (or live with) limerence — a very self-centered goal. Being altruistic to your MFF in distress/pain, can make you stuck in LE suffering. Do you want to possibly pay your “sanity” for it?
“humans are Gifted with being able to communicate… it defines us ( music, dance, books, storytelling… even sharing ourselves over Hundreds of hours on Walks!!! “
Very true. Arts are soul food, but they can’t always directly express each individual’s specific/accurate/refined emotions/thought at a given time. I bet you are “dying” to hear directly from your MFF — her verbally expressed feelings for you…. 🙂
Feel better.
Sad as in – social rejection and grief from losses ( passing away ) of people I loved
A few times I would cross some kind of ” boundary” , she would tell me to not say that sort of thing…. then we would drop it and not speak of it again.
” It’s actions that speak for her mind. How come you couldn’t sense it when you were with her?! “…. when we were together on walks. really all I could “sense” was my own Peace and Warmth and Comfort of being with her… I felt accepted. I returned from walks in a calm, almost euphoric state.
“If that’s one of her cultural markers, I’m surprised that she could get used to your PAD. ….I was always surprised at how much physical contact she ( allowed? ) me. I have touched her legs, abdomen, lower back, throat, hair, etc…. she never once seemed uncomfortable with it. She and I just accept as Normal ( for us )
“Does such a level of trust in her helped reduce your stresses or disappointments at home/elsewhere? Does it bring you a sense of peace, decreasing your tears and anxiety?”…. yes, very much so. She KNOWS I cannot lie to her, and I Trust her completely.
Yes, we often stopped for lunch during the walks. ( she has a healthy appetite ! )
NTL,
“Sad as in – social rejection and grief from losses ( passing away ) of people I loved”
I’m sorry to for your losses, are they recent after LE or leaving the job?
Regarding the social rejection — extremely SAD, could you see/treat it as something totally beyond your control, and Gradually accept it as “normal”? Sorry if I sound a bit “indifferent/stoic”, but do we have a better alternative reaction, other than a Stoic way — adjusting reaction?
“A few times I would cross some kind of ” boundary”, she would tell me to not say that sort of thing…. then we would drop it and not speak of it again.”
You sound respectful for her boundaries, that’s a good friendship.
”when we were together on walks. really all I could “sense” was my own Peace and Warmth and Comfort of being with her… I felt accepted. I returned from walks in a calm, almost euphoric state.
It sounds like you were in a state between LE and romantic friendship, the former makes one euphoric but also very anxious, almost never peaceful. But you also said that you’re drifting apart, is it due to the physical NC?
“I was always surprised at how much physical contact she ( allowed? ) me. I have touched her legs, abdomen, lower back, throat, hair, etc…. she never once seemed uncomfortable with it. She and I just accept as Normal ( for us )”
It seems that you two ventured into PA besides EA… Do her husband and your wife know about it?
“…. yes, very much so. She KNOWS I cannot lie to her, and I Trust her completely.”
But with both your marriage, what are you going to do in a long run about this quite strong “bond”? Is it in a dead end in the reality or foreseeable changes in the future?
Does writing about it here increase or reduce your pain of missing her?
Hope you doing well!
“Sad as in – social rejection and grief from losses ( passing away ) of people I loved”
I’m sorry to for your losses, are they recent after LE or leaving the job? //// over many years, each left a scar
Regarding the social rejection — extremely SAD, could you see/treat it as something totally beyond your control, and Gradually accept it as “normal”? Sorry if I sound a bit “indifferent/stoic”, but do we have a better alternative reaction, other than a Stoic way — adjusting reaction?
/// I do see it as “normal” now, I dont see it as rejection, just that I dont quite fit in, and I think I am ok with that now
“A few times I would cross some kind of ” boundary”, she would tell me to not say that sort of thing…. then we would drop it and not speak of it again.”
You sound respectful for her boundaries, that’s a good friendship.
”when we were together on walks. really all I could “sense” was my own Peace and Warmth and Comfort of being with her… I felt accepted. I returned from walks in a calm, almost euphoric state.
It sounds like you were in a state between LE and romantic friendship, the former makes one euphoric but also very anxious, almost never peaceful. But you also said that you’re drifting apart, is it due to the physical NC? ///
drifting apart due to physical NC, and she is in , as I said, deep emotional Pain, which overwhelms her mind…. I try to just be supportive of her
“I was always surprised at how much physical contact she ( allowed? ) me. I have touched her legs, abdomen, lower back, throat, hair, etc…. she never once seemed uncomfortable with it. She and I just accept as Normal ( for us )”
It seems that you two ventured into PA besides EA… Do her husband and your wife know about it? //// PA? to me, this is just how we are when we are “alone” on our walks … it does NOT feel sexual, just “comfortable”
( Alone-in-public… a couple of times we were joined on our walks… we were NOT touchy-feely then )
My wife knows a tiny portion of this… she would not be, and was not, happy with it. I doubt my Friends SO knows.
“…. yes, very much so. She KNOWS I cannot lie to her, and I Trust her completely.”
But with both your marriage, what are you going to do in a long run about this quite strong “bond”? Is it in a dead end in the reality or foreseeable changes in the future? ////
my “insecurities” when not with her say eventual dead end
Myself… I wish to have her always a part of my life… selfish I know, but I do love her ( even, without Limerence )
Does writing about it here increase or reduce your pain of missing her? ///// both!
Hope you doing well! //// thank you, I am getting there I think
I hope you are well also
//// over many years, each left a scar”
Then treat it with a Stoic mindset — the nature is beyond our control, let it be. My pain of losing my father over 8 years ago has almost all gone, which doesn’t mean I’ve forgotten him. He lives inside me and often spiritually guides me.
/// I do see it as “normal” now, I dont see it as rejection, just that I dont quite fit in, and I think I am ok with that now”
I’m glad to hear, that’s a painless end to reach. I never quite fit since my nursery school; now, I’m a very comfortable, not lonely, lone-wolf (I DO wish to find another lone-🐺 SO)
///drifting apart due to physical NC, and she is in , as I said, deep emotional Pain, which overwhelms her mind…. I try to just be supportive of her.
What’s the source of her “Deep emotional pain”? Why her SO can’t support her, but you CAN?
//// PA? to me, this is just how we are when we are “alone” on our walks … it does NOT feel sexual, just “comfortable””
Well, “PA” in my last post meant physical intimacy (I should use PI). Everyone’s sensory nerves are wired different, some are very sensitive; mere physical touches could put her/his body “on fire”…
“My wife knows a tiny portion of this… she would not be, and was not, happy with it. I doubt my Friends SO knows.”
If that’s the case, then to outsiders’ eyes, she’s “betraying” her SO with EA and PI (with you). Sorry for being frank.
////my “insecurities” when not with her say eventual dead end”
Can you search deep within: these “Insecurities” existed before or after your LE with her? If beforehand, her existence will NOT resolve them even if you two could get together. As said in my posts to others, you would need to do some psychological “digging and cutting roots” work. If afterwards, then the “insecurities” are caused by LE; when LE is gone, you’d feel secure again.
“Myself… I wish to have her always a part of my life… selfish I know, but I do love her ( even, without Limerence )”
LE lizard brains are all “selfish” by nature, no surprising! But when you’re still in LE, how do you know you “do love her”? Did you know her in person before your LE kicked in?
[Does writing about it here increase or reduce your pain of missing her? ///// both!]
Every coin has two sides, you’ll have to assess which side benefits you more and eventually removes the pain.
//// thank you, I am getting there I think”
With the physical NC and writing, you sound calmer than you first came, seemingly on fire literally… 🙂
“I hope you are well also”
Thank you. I’ve “grown” so much after XLE, but still somewhat restless, despite of Stoic practices…. I wish to have a loving SO to lovingly “abuse”….
//// over many years, each left a scar”
/// I do see it as “normal” now, I dont see it as rejection, just that I dont quite fit in, and I think I am ok with that now”
I’m glad to hear, that’s a painless end to reach. I never quite fit since my nursery school; now, I’m a very comfortable, not lonely, lone-wolf (I DO wish to find another lone-🐺 SO)
**** I watch others interact in groups ( and I can do it quite well, I am by nature chatty and friendly ) but I have comee to see that actual ” Friends” are few and far between… we are lucky if we get more than 2 REAL friends in our lives ****
///drifting apart due to physical NC, and she is in , as I said, deep emotional Pain, which overwhelms her mind…. I try to just be supportive of her.
What’s the source of her “Deep emotional pain”? Why her SO can’t support her, but you CAN? // I cannot disclose the source of her Pain, and I am sure her SO supports her. But I think I am a “help”
//// PA? to me, this is just how we are when we are “alone” on our walks … it does NOT feel sexual, just “comfortable””
Well, “PA” in my last post meant physical intimacy (I should use PI). Everyone’s sensory nerves are wired different, some are very sensitive; mere physical touches could put her/his body “on fire”… //// I like that… PI. Sounds like a good description. I think she enjoyed it ( again, not common with a male in her culture )
“My wife knows a tiny portion of this… she would not be, and was not, happy with it. I doubt my Friends SO knows.”
If that’s the case, then to outsiders’ eyes, she’s “betraying” her SO with EA and PI (with you). Sorry for being frank.
//// I appreciate Truth… yes I am sure of how it looks.
////my “insecurities” when not with her say eventual dead end”
Can you search deep within: these “Insecurities” existed before or after your LE with her? If beforehand, her existence will NOT resolve them even if you two could get together. As said in my posts to others, you would need to do some psychological “digging and cutting roots” work. If afterwards, then the “insecurities” are caused by LE; when LE is gone, you’d feel secure again.
// these Social Insecurities have existed ( and been re-enforced ) over many years. They are now just a part of me, that I accept .
“Myself… I wish to have her always a part of my life… selfish I know, but I do love her ( even, without Limerence )”
LE lizard brains are all “selfish” by nature, no surprising! But when you’re still in LE, how do you know you “do love her”? Did you know her in person before your LE kicked in?
/// I knew her as a coworker for months before the “Glimmer” ( caused by giving / getting a nice hug from her… caused an Explosion in my brain ) and always really liked her and enjoyed her company.
[Does writing about it here increase or reduce your pain of missing her? ///// both!]
Every coin has two sides, you’ll have to assess which side benefits you more and eventually removes the pain.
/// last year, I journaled and wrote my thoughts several times a day…. It kept me sane when in Full-On Limerence… she occupied my mind Completely.
//// thank you, I am getting there I think”
With the physical NC and writing, you sound calmer than you first came, seemingly on fire literally… 🙂
Thanks, it helps me that you noticed… I am MUCH calmer and steadier. I am one of the ( lucky??? ) Limerents who got to spend LOTS of quality time with their Friend / LO and have a real relationship with her. Caused me MUCH pain and happiness.
When we would walk… before the walk, I was in PAIN, needing to SEE her… as soon as we went out the door to start our time together, Pain gone, replaced by PEACE.
Walking, shopping, talking, eating together…. it was Peaceful and…… felt so nice to be together.
Sorry, I am daydreaming and rambling.
“I hope you are well also”
Thank you. I’ve “grown” so much after XLE, but still somewhat restless, despite of Stoic practices…. I wish to have a loving SO to lovingly “abuse”….
NTL,
**** I watch others interact in groups ( and I can do it quite well, I am by nature chatty and friendly ) but I have come to see that actual ” Friends” are few and far between… we are lucky if we get more than 2 REAL friends in our lives ****
Social skills definitely can be learned. Your insightful observation here is also shared by me, or more, regardless of having the insecurity or not.
// I cannot disclose the source of her Pain, and I am sure her SO supports her. But I think I am a “help”
Does it help increase self-confidence and feel rewarded to be such a “help”? She’s Lucky to have you as a truly caring Friend. Has she thanked you for the Help?
//// I like that… PI. Sounds like a good description. I think she enjoyed it ( again, not common with a male in her culture )”
Maybe the “deprivation” in her culture made her more open to safe PI in public? It probably took some guts for one’s nerve endings to expose to and get used to “new” forms of “sensory synapses and firing”.
//// I appreciate Truth… yes I am sure of how it looks.”
Well, if you keep in touch with your Friend, in person or IG, what’s the point of disclosing LE to your Wife? How did/does the knowledge affect her mental/emotional state?
// these Social Insecurities have existed ( and been re-enforced ) over many years. They are now just a part of me, that I accept .”
It’s painful to hear that these “insecurities” have become a norm for you or anyone; has your acceptance reduced the Pain? How has your marriage/wife helped in this regard?
/// I knew her as a coworker for months before the “Glimmer” ( caused by giving / getting a nice hug from her… caused an Explosion in my brain ) and always really liked her and enjoyed her company.”
Before Glimmer, could “really liked” someone and “enjoyed” their company amount to a love in depth? 🤔 Was it more of an amicable or a loving Friendship? Your Glimmer struck through a nice hug (nerve neurons involved), which I guess, induced a chemical “explosion” in the brain. No wonder your logical mind couldn’t control its scope and intensity.
/// last year, I journaled and wrote my thoughts several times a day…. It kept me sane when in Full-On Limerence… she occupied my mind Completely.”
That’s smart to use journal writing to deal with the symptoms of LE at its peak. Did you go through ALL LE’s physiological and psychological signs, aside from the flooding tears?
“Thanks, it helps me that you noticed… “
Actually in the early posts, you sounded like a broken water pipe, gushing out the tear of missing your Friend even just for weekend. I felt puzzled after chatting with you once, thinking you were beyond any LwL help, despite so many LwLers were responding your posts with advice.
“I am MUCH calmer and steadier. I am one of the ( lucky??? ) Limerents who got to spend LOTS of quality time with their Friend / LO and have a real relationship with her. Caused me MUCH pain and happiness.”
Ah, here comes that cliche: no pain, no gain! Now, I’m going to be “inquisitive” again: how did you come to define that you have a “real relationship with her”, just by the waking, talking, and some touching during 75 minute lunch for a few months, while you both have a SO? Did/does she feel the same way, or possibly took/takes your care as “fatherly” (due to her regrettable childhood)?
“When we would walk… before the walk, I was in PAIN, needing to SEE her… as soon as we went out the door to start our time together, Pain gone, replaced by PEACE.”
In physical Pain, where? It indeed sounds like your Friend became your “person drug”, which even induced PEACE (which I rarely felt during my XLE), besides LE’s typical Highs and Lows.
“Walking, shopping, talking, eating together…. it was Peaceful and…… felt so nice to be together.”
“Sorry, I am daydreaming and rambling.”
No need to apologize, it’s much nicer to hear limerents’ positive experiences and memories of their LE. But the reminisce will elongate your own LE, if not indirectly enabling others’ ongoing or ending LEs. 🙂
You said you were laid off 7 months ago, are you looking for a new job or already retired? Do you have plans to recover from your LE but keep the love?
Wish you continue feeling clam and steady.
Hello
Does it help increase self-confidence and feel rewarded to be such a “help”? She’s Lucky to have you as a truly caring Friend. Has she thanked you for the Help? /// Truly, I don’t feel rewarded … it just is the Right Thing to do for someone you care about. And she very rarely expresses any “emotional ” feelings towards me. I am unclear why ( makes her feel exposed? trying to keep a certain distance ? and virtually all our “touching” is initiated my me, but genuinely is accepted comfortably by her 🙂 )
Maybe the “deprivation” in her culture made her more open to safe PI in public? It probably took some guts for one’s nerve endings to expose to and get used to “new” forms of “sensory synapses and firing”. //// she VERY much would have been Deprived of adult male ” safe and non-sexual” touching and affection through her life. I am sure I am a first for this with her. And yes…. ” safe PI”, in public !! She once said that she would NEVER be alone with me in her apartment!!!
It’s painful to hear that these “insecurities” have become a norm for you or anyone; has your acceptance reduced the Pain? How has your marriage/wife helped in this regard?/// Acceptance and understanding myself make it not pain as such… more kind of knowing I am an Outsider to parts of human interactions. I still have insecurities with my wife… throughout our marriage I have had several Dreams about her leaving me. Not good dreams at all.
Before Glimmer, could “really liked” someone and “enjoyed” their company amount to a love in depth? 🤔 Was it more of an amicable or a loving Friendship? Your Glimmer struck through a nice hug (nerve neurons involved), which I guess, induced a chemical “explosion” in the brain. No wonder your logical mind couldn’t control its scope and intensity./// I think Limerence started/enflamed/drove the “falling in Love Friendship”, which is now Permanent in my brain.
That’s smart to use journal writing to deal with the symptoms of LE at its peak. Did you go through ALL LE’s physiological and psychological signs, aside from the flooding tears? /// Journaling was great… I tried Therapy twice, but they had no understanding of Limerence. And I doubt there was a LE symptom that I did NOT experience. Mental fog, anxiousness, unable to care about or think about anything but HER!!!! Only felt better in her Presence!
My wife knew about my SUFFERING for LO, and would be able to tell when I got home if I had “been taken on a walk” by Her. No walk equaled noticeable Suffering.
In physical Pain, where? It indeed sounds like your Friend became your “person drug”, which even induced PEACE (which I rarely felt during my XLE), besides LE’s typical Highs and Lows /// very very much a Drug to me. I many times really thought I might have a heart attack ( or my heart was being damaged! ) And I could feel my mind Collapsing. ONLY felt Normal and symptom free with HER.
Truly , how do Limerents who have no access to LO , good close access, how do they deal with the Pain??? I am very curious about this.
Ah, here comes that cliche: no pain, no gain! Now, I’m going to be “inquisitive” again: how did you come to define that you have a “real relationship with her”, just by the waking, talking, and some touching during 75 minute lunch for a few months, while you both have a SO? Did/does she feel the same way, or possibly took/takes your care as “fatherly” (due to her regrettable childhood)?/// I know she has / had “feelings” for me beyond co-worker, such as a real Friend. ( or am I fooling myself?? )… and Yes, I very much think she takes it now as “fatherly” love and affection, she has NOT gotten one as she was growing up ( gonna make me cry again…. the poor thing!!!! I am heartbroken for her ) 🙁 🙁
I am a safe adult male who she knows Loves her and CANNOT hurt her ( besides her Husband )
You said you were laid off 7 months ago, are you looking for a new job or already retired? Do you have plans to recover from your LE but keep the love?/// Looking for work. My LE is much better, but I will I am sure always Love her now.
Much as I love my step-daughter, my long gone Adopted Daughter, and my son ( my wife and I have a son )
Thanks for inquiring and taking an interest… I like being challenged and made to be introspective
HELLO back,
/// Truly, I don’t feel rewarded … it just is the right thing to do for someone you care about. “
It’s an altruistic love you’ve got for her. From what you told here, I’m quite sure she’s benefited from and appreciated your ear and caring; otherwise, she wouldn’t have kept telling you her emotional pains. In stereotype, women are quite sensitive and intuitive to quality of men’s attention.
“And she very rarely expresses any “emotional ” feelings towards me. I am unclear why ( makes her feel exposed? trying to keep a certain distance ? and virtually all our “touching” is initiated by me, but genuinely is accepted comfortably by her 🙂 )”
All I could think/guess are two possible reasons:
1. she’s from a culture where verbal Romanticism was frowned upon? Where emotions expression was not much valued or accepted in her upbringing? It’s like wearing bikini or topless, or even nude beach is common in France and the U.S. but unthinkable in many cultures (myself still can’t go to a nude beach, tried.)
2. In her dating life (prior to her marriage), her heart was cheated/hurt by men, thus she’s being super cautious. Maybe to her eyes, Western men in general are too verbally romantic, too casual in sex, or too many Casanovas?
//// she very much would have been deprived of adult male ” safe and non-sexual” touching and affection through her life. I am sure I am a first for this with her. “
It wouldn’t surprise me if she had stretched out in learning how to feel comfortable with your public PI. Once feeling comfortably good, who wouldn’t want more?! You should feel assured and proud that she had trusted you in this regard.
“And yes…. ” safe PI”, in public !! She once said that she would never be alone with me in her apartment!!!”
Really? 🧐 Well, she has a husband, and you a wife. What do you expect she could’ve said? Committing an adultery even in mind might be a big ethical deal for her? What kind of core values or personality does she have, based on your knowledge and assessment?
/// Acceptance and understanding myself make it not pain as such… more kind of knowing I am an outsider to parts of human interactions. “
I’m happy to hear that you’ve reached this Stoic peaceful stage. As I said many times in LwL, I’ve been an outsider as well – a lone-wolf in both my COO and the current culture. I don’t care superficial human interactions, but desire deep human soulful connections. It’s incredibly hard to find like-minded “lone-wolves” to naturally howl and dance together.
“I still have insecurities with my wife… throughout our marriage I have had several dreams about her leaving me. Not good dreams at all.”
Oh, that’s sad. Did your wife know about your deep insecurities? If Yes, why couldn’t she help reduce them enough in years? If Not, why haven’t you talked with her about them? Only direct, open, deep dialogues, I believe, could solve tons of relational problems and solidly glue mutually-glimmering souls together, like in the trilogy, “Before…”
/// I think Limerence started/enflamed/drove the “falling in love friendship”, which is now permanent in my brain.”
Ah, I admire/envy your romantic friendship/LE for your Friend, I’d wish to be in her young shoes… (I’m much older). I don’t think my xSO ever felt (or incapable of expressing) this deep affection for me (he’s from the non-LE tribe.)
/// Journaling was great… I tried Therapy twice, but they had no understanding of Limerence. And I doubt there was a LE symptom that I did not experience. Mental fog, anxiousness, unable to care about or think about anything but her!!!! Only felt better in her presence!”
As a recovered limerent, I can certainly resonate how painful it could be in your shoes, especially in the reality that your LE can’t be reciprocated. It sounds like if without SO barriers, you two might be able to “tie the knot”, despite the age gap.
“My wife knew about my suffering for LO, and would be able to tell when I got home if I had “been taken on a walk” by her. No walk equaled noticeable suffering.”
And is she okay taking in this knowledge? How did you two meet and get married? Is she an older version of your Friend? Were you in LE with her back then? What parts in her attracted you back then? Are they still there?
/// very very much a drug to me. I many times really thought I might have a heart attack ( or my heart was being damaged! ) And I could feel my mind collapsing. Only felt normal and symptom free with her.
Your “drug-like” Friend seemed (unintentionally) doing “harm” to you, I’m sorry for all your sufferings, especially after you left the job.
“Truly , how do Limerents who have no access to LO, good close access, how do they deal with the pain??? I am very curious about this.”
You still have IG access to her, right? Isn’t it private enough? I’ve annoyingly talked too much about Stoic ways to deal with pains — no limerent wants to hear about them! So now allow me to suggest a scary, visual LO-deprogramming method? —
Get a picture of your Friend, then ask AI to draw her in her 45, 55, 65, 75, 85… with thinning, whitening hair and wrinkled, shrinking face… 🙂 Then you check your feelings again and ask: is this the person I’d want to spend my life with, if we both were available? Then your LE might be cooled down even though the aged her doesn’t exist yet… Image is power in both ways.
/// I know she has / had “feelings” for me beyond co-worker, such as a real Friend. ( or am I fooling myself?? )…”
If you’re observant, sensitive and sensible in your adult life, then trust your intuition, unless she clearly told you otherwise! Based on what you told here, I think she might have felt for you even beyond a “real Friend”, but something prevented her from expressing it.
Maybe she directly hinted her feeling in some culturally unfamiliar fashions, so you didn’t get it. By the definition, LE makes one, even secure prior to LE, to doubt their own mind to the edge of the Galaxy — a true torture.
“and yes, I very much think she takes it now as “fatherly” love and affection, she has not gotten one as she was growing up ( gonna make me cry again…. the poor thing!!!! I am heartbroken for her ) 🙁 🙁”
For this “fatherly” affection you gave her, she might be grateful beyond your imagination: what hurt one most in childhood is what they constantly, subconsciously seek most in their adult life, much more than those cheesy or unhealthy romance appeared in Hollywood or modern Screens.
“I am a safe adult male who she knows loves her and cannot hurt her ( besides her Husband )”
Then what are you worrying here? I deem she knew/knows your characters; otherwise, she wouldn’t have kept seeking emotional support from you. A smart person would not waste time if trust is missing in their personal interactions with another.
“/// Looking for work. My LE is much better, but I will I am sure always love her now.”
Lucky her if she can take your love with open arms… But I hope this “love” wouldn’t worsen your current family life.
“Much as I love my step-daughter, my long gone adopted daughter, and my son ( my wife and I have a son )”
Wow, that’s a big family! Are the children all left the nest?
“Thanks for inquiring and taking an interest… I like being challenged and made to be introspective”
You’re welcome. With your cracked water pipe until two months ago, I couldn’t have dreamt to take your case to “spin and crack”… 🙂
Due to a childhood trauma, I cannot fall in sleep in total darkness. So I’ve been following what my Papa told me — leave a light on, through every single night even when I didn’t feel afraid.
Typo: “ Maybe she INdirectly hinted her feelings…”
you know, I dont know a name for you 🙂 ( snowflake? )
for a stranger on the Web you and others at LwL know a lot about me!
————————————–
Tracy Newman – I JUST SEE YOU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG6t8nUZeG4
This song means a LOT to me, and speaks to my soul and how I feel about my wife.
Please take a couple of minutes to listen to it, and hear the lyrics. They are beautiful.
This also will answer your question about how I would feel about my Friend…. if I saw her “aged” , or scarred, or burned, or crippled by illness. I would feel the same love and support for her. Nothing would change.
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“she’s from a culture where verbal Romanticism was frowned upon? Where emotions expression was not much valued or accepted in her upbringing?” /// her culture is FULL of romantic / expressive / loving expressions ( just frowns on physical Public expressions of affection.
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” “And yes…. ” safe PI”, in public !! She once said that she would never be alone with me in her apartment!!!”
Really? 🧐 Well, she has a husband, and you a wife. What do you expect she could’ve said? Committing an adultery even in mind might be a big ethical deal for her? What kind of core values or personality does she have, based on your knowledge and assessment?”
//// I think she is / was referring to how it would “look” to others. I hope she knows me enough to Trust ME. I would not do anything inappropriate ( well, in my eyes anyways )
As for her…. I am 30 years older, grey hair and getting a bit overweight. And I am not anybody’s idea of attractive!! 🙂 She is SAFE…. totally. 🙂
but it would look very wrong. I would never put her in a situation that looked that way. ” shudders at the thought”
And she is very strong minded, with excellent core values.
————————————-
” Oh, that’s sad. Did your wife know about your deep insecurities? If Yes, why couldn’t she help reduce them enough in years? If Not, why haven’t you talked with her about them? Only direct, open, deep dialogues, I believe, could solve tons of relational problems and solidly glue mutually-glimmering souls together, like in the trilogy, “Before…” ”
she knows about my “dreams”. but she sees them as a bit silly, I think. To me… they are horrifying.
” Only direct, open, deep dialogues, I believe, could solve tons of relational problems”…. this is very true. I believe this… humans are Blessed with speech… we should use it this way
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oh, as to my Friend…. I have at times made her VERY mad, and annoyed at me…. but I CANNOT hurt her. I am sure she knows EXACTLY how I feel about her I have told her lots of times, and shown even MORE times what she means to me.
—————————————–
“It sounds like if without SO barriers, you two might be able to “tie the knot”, despite the age gap.” //// when I read this I laughed out loud! I am in EVERY way inferior to her, and “out of her class” Smarter, better educated, more attractive ( she is… in my mind… almost a 10/10, I am a 4/10 ), fitter, etc., and overall SO much classier than me I cannot mentally even think that way…. I am LUCKY to have what I have with her. 🙂
———————
And is she okay taking in this knowledge? How did you two meet and get married? Is she an older version of your Friend? Were you in LE with her back then? What parts in her attracted you back then? Are they still there?
/// my wife “tolerated” the LE with my Friend. She was never worried about it becoming a PA. Wife and I met at work almost 35 years ago. She was kind and loving and smart and interesting! Still is! But grown apart emotionally somewhat… as I have said, NO physical intimacy for several years. And she saw the Pain I was in without being able to spend time with my Friend, and was trying to understand. I don’t think a non Limerent could ever really understand, but she tries.
—————————————–
” You still have IG access to her, right? Isn’t it private enough? I’ve annoyingly talked too much about Stoic ways to deal with pains — no limerent wants to hear about them!
Yes our IG chats are private. But a bit limited by her Internal Pain. I try not to push myself on her ( when I have withdrawn a bit to give her Space and asked her to let me know if I bother her, she got upset a little and told me to NOT say that again )
—————————————-
So now allow me to suggest a scary, visual LO-deprogramming method? —
Get a picture of your Friend, then ask AI to draw her in her 45, 55, 65, 75, 85… with thinning, whitening hair and wrinkled, shrinking face… 🙂 Then you check your feelings again and ask: is this the person I’d want to spend my life with, if we both were available? Then your LE might be cooled down even though the aged her doesn’t exist yet… Image is power in both ways. ” //// as I feel about her now, that would not change…. but I could NEVER “spend my life with her” in the way that you mean. I am not good enough for her ( I am not good enough for my WIFE either…. but she is Stuck with me now! 🙂 🙂 🙂 )
———————————-
Your questions have been really making me think. I am grateful.
Son is the youngest of the 4… still lives at home.
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Please have a Peaceful evening
sorry for the super long reply!
Hi
“you know, I dont know a name for you 🙂 ( snowflake? )”
Just “Snow”. “flake” is too close to “flaky”.
“for a stranger on the Web you and others at LwL know a lot about me!”
Reading some old posts, one could get/detect/suspect a lot of stuff from a poster…. Limerents are famous for reading into things that might be nonexistent. 🙂
————————————–
Tracy Newman – I JUST SEE YOU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG6t8nUZeG4
Thank you for the link of the song, its lyrics and singer are so beautiful and moving… Your wife is very lucky to have your eyes, fidelity, and soul!
“This also will answer your question about how I would feel about my Friend…. if I saw her “aged” , or scarred, or burned, or crippled by illness. I would feel the same love and support for her. Nothing would change.”
The LE spell can make Limmies to feel their “love” for LO is invincible…. But based on the strong marital tie with your wife, I think “the same love and support” for your Friend may last. Only time can tell.
—————————————————-
/// her culture is full of romantic / expressive / loving expressions ( just frowns on physical public expressions of affection.
Genuine “romantic/expressive/loving expressions” could easily ignite one’s heart, maybe she wanted to be loyal to her husband or keep your LE toes on the ground? I think she already sensed your hormone racing or LE flickering in your “fatherly love”? One’s five senses could intuitively tell a lot, especially through physical touch.
——————————————————-
//// I think she is / was referring to how it would “look” to others. I hope she knows me enough to trust me. I would not do anything inappropriate ( well, in my eyes anyways )”
Yes, once a woman allows a man (other than her SO) to enter her chamber, then a “crime” is culturally convinced/charged by others eyes, even if nothing has happened inside.
“As for her…. I am 30 years older, grey hair and getting a bit overweight. And I am not anybody’s idea of attractive!! 🙂 She is safe…. totally. 🙂”
You sound like a typical “product” of the Pop culture in the West, comparing yourself with others, adopting popular views, and demeaning your appearance. No wonder your self-esteem suffers…. Your Friend certainly couldn’t and didn’t get any emotional support from your age, hair or weight, but your brain — the sexist organ in human body, based on some scientific research —
https://www.futura-sciences.com/en/why-your-brain-is-secretly-the-most-powerful-sex-organ-of-all_34807/
But for one’s health especially after 60, weight becomes a key concern, that affect many parts of a human body. My foodie father lost his life to over-eating/over-weight, with a sudden massive brain stroke. With my Granny’s longevity genes and a healthy diet, he could’ve lived for another 10~20 years.
“but it would look very wrong. I would never put her in a situation that looked that way. ”
Such an inaction is a form of true substantial caring (My poetic LO/Lim #1 did it for me)!
“And she is very strong minded, with excellent core values.”
If truly so, then your LE can’t be extinguished easily by DrL’s deprogramming package.
————————————-
“she knows about my “dreams”. but she sees them as a bit silly, I think. To me… they are horrifying.”
Perhaps she doesn’t like/believe Freud’s or Jung’s works. Dreams tell about one’s forgotten memory and one’s hidden stresses in the unconscious, they’re Never silly but psychologically important! Maybe you want to jolt down dreams upon waking and analyze them (even incorrectly) later, the process of which is therapeutic and can reduce nightmare’s impact in the waking hours. Human brain is a mysterious magic.
”…. this is very true. I believe this… humans are blessed with speech… we should use it this way”
Perhaps talk with your wife more, which may shorten your emotional distance? My chatty father “dumped” anything passed through his head to Mother, while she mostly remained silent with smile, like a puppy. Maybe that’s how he stayed sanely/saintly with to her? They were lopsidedly co-dependent, not equally inter-dependent.
————————————–
“oh, as to my Friend…. I have at times made her very mad, and annoyed at me…. but I cannot hurt her. I am sure she knows exactly how I feel about her I have told her lots of times, and shown even more times what she means to me.”
Conflicts, arguments or even fights in (loving) interactions /relationships are natural and humanistic, no one is an Angel or saint. But sincere communication can dissolve most of them. How did you show more what “she means to” you, via words, gifts, deeds, etc?
—————————————–
//// when I read this I laughed out loud! I am in every way inferior to her, and “out of her class” smarter, better educated, more attractive ( she is… in my mind… almost a 10/10, I am a 4/10 ), fitter, etc., and overall so much classier than me I cannot mentally even think that way…. I am lucky to have what I have with her. 🙂”
You’re talking about human “qualities” on paper with a pop rating system again! You sound so much in LE, like one poster, MJ worshiped his goddess LO in his LE peak… However, the difference is that you were able to play a “white knight” saving a much younger “damsel-in-stress” at daily basis. I can’t picture that you’d ever get out of your LE, but am glad your LE’s acute symptoms have reduced.
———————
/// my wife “tolerated” the LE with my Friend. She was never worried about it becoming a PA. “
Hmm… I and some other posters might have misjudged you based on your own posts… 🤔
“Wife and I met at work almost 35 years ago. She was kind and loving and smart and interesting! Still is! But grown apart emotionally somewhat… as I have said, no physical intimacy for several years. And she saw the pain I was in without being able to spend time with my Friend, and was trying to understand. I don’t think a non Limerent could ever really understand, but she tries.”
Well, very loving/supportive of her trying to put up with the painful situation for Her, you need to be more caring for her. living or interacting with a non-limerent, could be very frustrating in one-way, but easier in logical domains. Which tribe/camp do you think your Friend is in?
—————————————–
“Yes our IG chats are private. But a bit limited by her internal pain. I try not to push myself on her ( when I have withdrawn a bit to give her space and asked her to let me know if I bother her, she got upset a little and told me to not say that again )”
It sounds like she had some psychological issues going on in interrelating you, perhaps some miscommunication or misunderstanding from both sides? Maybe when you ‘re eager to get closer, she wanted some distance; but when you tried to “give her space”, she missed the emotional closeness? It almost sounded like a push-n-pull, even if she was not in a LE?
—————————————-
//// as I feel about her now, that would not change…. but I could never “spend my life with her” in the way that you mean. I am not good enough for her ( I am not good enough for my wife either…. but she is stuck with me now! 🙂 🙂 🙂 )
You’re putting yourself down again. What specifically entail your “not good enough” stuff? Perhaps this mindset is a source of your “low-esteem”, originated by/related to the socializing anxiety?
———————————-
Your questions have been really making me think. I am grateful.
Please forgive me if my words/tones sound undiplomatic or impolite. I’m a ESL speaker (thus verbose), and often short in patience and long in excitement…
Edit: …”have misjudged you based on your Older posts… 🤔
By the way, sometimes good friends and SOs can unintentionally, ignorantly hurt or bring psychological stresses to each other, unfortunately. Psychology is so complex. 🤔
Hello Snow…
The LE spell can make Limmies to feel their “love” for LO is invincible…. But based on the strong marital tie with your wife, I think “the same love and support” for your Friend may last. Only time can tell.
/// She would either have to outright TELL me to leave her alone ( we have had some discussions regarding if I am bothering her, Her answer has always been no… we joke about it, and have arranged a “Safe Word” in Her language that She would need to say to get rid of me ) or, reveal something HORRIBLE about herself ( thats not going to happen )
—————————————————-
/// her culture is full of romantic / expressive / loving expressions ( just frowns on physical public expressions of affection.
Genuine “romantic/expressive/loving expressions” could easily ignite one’s heart, maybe she wanted to be loyal to her husband or keep your LE toes on the ground? I think she already sensed your hormone racing or LE flickering in your “fatherly love”? One’s five senses could intuitively tell a lot, especially through physical touch.
/// I believe this is true… She wants to remain loyal, and I think She tries to keep my hormones “calmed down” as it were. Letting me breathe in the scent of her perfume from the nape of her neck is QUITE enough, thanks very much!
——————————————————-
“As for her…. I am 30 years older, grey hair and getting a bit overweight. And I am not anybody’s idea of attractive!! 🙂 She is safe…. totally. 🙂”
You sound like a typical “product” of the Pop culture in the West, comparing yourself with others, adopting popular views, and demeaning your appearance. No wonder your self-esteem suffers…. Your Friend certainly couldn’t and didn’t get any emotional support from your age, hair or weight, but your brain — the sexist organ in human body, based on some scientific research —
https://www.futura-sciences.com/en/why-your-brain-is-secretly-the-most-powerful-sex-organ-of-all_34807/
“but it would look very wrong. I would never put her in a situation that looked that way. ”
Such an inaction is a form of true substantial caring (My poetic LO/Lim #1 did it for me)!
“And she is very strong minded, with excellent core values.”
If truly so, then your LE can’t be extinguished easily by DrL’s deprogramming package.
/// how so? I don’t understand.
————————————-
“she knows about my “dreams”. but she sees them as a bit silly, I think. To me… they are horrifying.”
Perhaps she doesn’t like/believe Freud’s or Jung’s works. Dreams tell about one’s forgotten memory and one’s hidden stresses in the unconscious, they’re Never silly but psychologically important! Maybe you want to jolt down dreams upon waking and analyze them (even incorrectly) later, the process of which is therapeutic and can reduce nightmare’s impact in the waking hours. Human brain is a mysterious magic.
//// Honestly for the last few years… I dont want to accurately remember my dreams
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”…. this is very true. I believe this… humans are blessed with speech… we should use it this way”
Perhaps talk with your wife more, which may shorten your emotional distance? My chatty father “dumped” anything passed through his head to Mother, while she mostly remained silent with smile, like a puppy. Maybe that’s how he stayed sanely/saintly with to her? They were lopsidedly co-dependent, not equally inter-dependent.
//// we are spending much more time together last 7 months ( I have become a Caregiver for her… her health is poor )
————————————–
How did you show more what “she means to” you, via words, gifts, deeds, etc?
//// in all the ways that I think mean anything…
they way I look at Her, kind words, being very supportive, touches, food treats ( I know what She likes !!! ) TELLING her, and being good to Her
—————————————–
//// when I read this I laughed out loud! I am in every way inferior to her, and “out of her class” smarter, better educated, more attractive ( she is… in my mind… almost a 10/10, I am a 4/10 ), fitter, etc., and overall so much classier than me I cannot mentally even think that way…. I am lucky to have what I have with her. 🙂”
You’re talking about human “qualities” on paper with a pop rating system again! You sound so much in LE, like one poster, MJ worshiped his goddess LO in his LE peak… However, the difference is that you were able to play a “white knight” saving a much younger “damsel-in-stress” at daily basis. I can’t picture that you’d ever get out of your LE, but am glad your LE’s acute symptoms have reduced.
/// I am not Suffering anymore without being physically with Her ( despite my Post a few weeks ago… that Fever has abated… in a Large part because of getting to Chat with you!! )
//// as long as She doesn’t use our “Safe Word” to get rid of me… we will keep in contact
I expect to NEVER see her in person again
———————
/// my wife “tolerated” the LE with my Friend. She was never worried about it becoming a PA. “
Hmm… I and some other posters might have misjudged you based on your own posts… 🤔
////// OK, now I am so curious…. how were they seeing and judging me? Did I offend anyone?
“Wife and I met at work almost 35 years ago. She was kind and loving and smart and interesting! Still is! But grown apart emotionally somewhat… as I have said, no physical intimacy for several years. And she saw the pain I was in without being able to spend time with my Friend, and was trying to understand. I don’t think a non Limerent could ever really understand, but she tries.”
Well, very loving/supportive of her trying to put up with the painful situation for Her, you need to be more caring for her. living or interacting with a non-limerent, could be very frustrating in one-way, but easier in logical domains. Which tribe/camp do you think your Friend is in?
///// you mean is my Friend a Limerent???? I could not see that at all!!!!
—————————————–
“Yes our IG chats are private. But a bit limited by her internal pain. I try not to push myself on her ( when I have withdrawn a bit to give her space and asked her to let me know if I bother her, she got upset a little and told me to not say that again )”
It sounds like she had some psychological issues going on in interrelating you, perhaps some miscommunication or misunderstanding from both sides? Maybe when you ‘re eager to get closer, she wanted some distance; but when you tried to “give her space”, she missed the emotional closeness? It almost sounded like a push-n-pull, even if she was not in a LE?
///// no push-pull …. I have mis-spoken to her in text a few times… she always has corrected me from being “inappropriate” ( as a married woman she has a good sense of what is appropriate in my behavior to her )
She has NEVER asked me to leave her alone, it was always my own “stupid” idea … which She firmly corrected.
I am not “allowed” to talk badly about myself to her… makes her mad
—————————————-
//// as I feel about her now, that would not change…. but I could never “spend my life with her” in the way that you mean. I am not good enough for her ( I am not good enough for my wife either…. but she is stuck with me now! 🙂 🙂 🙂 )
You’re putting yourself down again. What specifically entail your “not good enough” stuff? Perhaps this mindset is a source of your “low-esteem”, originated by/related to the socializing anxiety?
// I just know myself well. I am very smart, caring, friendly, and affectionate.
I am also , I have learned… quite “irritating” , so its best to be with others in small doses!
———————————-
Your questions have been really making me think. I am grateful.
Please forgive me if my words/tones sound undiplomatic or impolite. I’m a ESL speaker (thus verbose), and often short in patience and long in excitement…
//// not at all, Snow…. I appreciate the well-meaning in your words and tones, and your letting me share with you… it had been a huge help to me this last week
NWT,
/// She would either have to outright tell me to leave her alone ( we have had some discussions regarding if I am bothering her, Her answer has always been no… we joke about it, and have arranged a “safe word” in her language that she would need to say to get rid of me ) or, reveal something horrible about herself ( thats not going to happen )
Based on your report, your Friend received a lot of emotional support from you, you gave her space when you thought she needed, and you only keep IG open for occasional chats. I really don’t see for what possible reasons that she’d want to get rid of you! It’s the LE brain that makes one feeling anxious, fearing that LO would suddenly leave the dynamic. Your mind will feel more relaxed as LE continues decreasing.
—————————————————-
/// I believe this is true… She wants to remain loyal, and I think she tries to keep my hormones calmed down as it were. Letting me breathe in the scent of her perfume from the nape of her neck is quite enough, thanks very much!”
Hmm… Could you please put graphic descriptions of PI in your journal? Some posters who’re still unsure of the nature of your LE might feel uncomfortable to read them. I’m sure there are PAs and PIs in LwL, but no details descriptions (based on how much I‘ve read)
——————————————————-
[You sound like a typical “product” of the Pop culture in the West, comparing yourself with others, adopting popular views, and demeaning your appearance. No wonder your self-esteem suffers…]
I was trying to say: comparing one’s appearance with others always makes one (especially aging people) feel insecure; remember, beauty is in subjective eyes. Your Friend cared more about your wits, caring heart, and attentive listening…. Moreover, one’s brain is most powerful, attractive, and substantial sexy organ in a human body.
/// how so? I don’t understand.”
Because you sound like idealizing and glorifying your Friend/LO, instead of see the realistic her with some flaws, which would reinforce LE strength.
————————————-
//// Honestly for the last few years… I dont want to accurately remember my dreams”
I’m sorry that those dreams are so horrible! 🫂 But repressing them may strength their impact in your (un)conscious and waking mind. Could you talk about them with your Friend? Or you can upload them (minus personal information) here for a laymen “analysis”? — pain shared is reduced in half. Also different interpretation may help you (privately) locate source/root of those nightmares.
—————————–
//// we are spending much more time together last 7 months ( I have become a caregiver for her… her health is poor )
That’s really sweet and kind of you! Have you seen a short French film I posted a while ago ? — Bastille (about a husband falling in love again with his dying wife)
https://youtu.be/fADHa-fCo4Y?si=GbIed77wwFKZPkbm
It could happen to you, if you can focus your mind and actions on Wife’s realistic/health needs. Actions generate emotions!
————————————–
//// in all the ways that I think mean anything…
the way I look at her, kind words, being very supportive, touches, food treats ( I know what she likes !!! ) telling her, and being good to her”
Ok, I’m convinced of your “love” for her through your words, gestures, and deeds.
—————————————–
/// I am not suffering anymore without being physically with her ( despite my post a few weeks ago… that fever has abated… in a large part because of getting to chat with you!! )”
Really? I’m honored and happy that your LE suffering has reduced.
//// as long as she doesn’t use our “safe word” to get rid of me… we will keep in contact”
My current intuition tells me that you wouldn’t hear your “safe word”.
“I expect to never see her in person again”
That sounds sad to a fellow limerent’s ear, but it’s ultimately healthy to you and your family. Do you have her photos or gifts for keep (your help deserved some…)?
———————
////// OK, now I am so curious…. how were they seeing and judging me? Did I offend anyone”
After skipping your old posts for a year, I had a quick scan over them last week; my impressions (might be wrong) are:
1. Your tears repeatedly flooded, as if an internal water pipe had cracked/broken; or your inner child had taken over the brain.
2. It sounded like a possible “incest” involved (w/ the adopted daughter), thus PI descriptions with the younger LO appeared highly provocative (badly upset at least one poster);
3. Not sure if the posts offended anyone else here; I simply skipped them since last summer.
4. the responding posters tried hard to call back your “lost wits”;
5. The language and information were repetitious, showing the circulatory LE loops.
Please forgive my frankness, you asked.
_____________________
///// you mean is my Friend a Limerent???? I could not see that at all!!!!
That’s probably why she didn’t express her emotions enough as you had expected. If not a limerent, she couldn’t do it with anyone else, including her husband. From a different culture, does she possibly have knowledge of limerence?
—————————————–
///// no push-pull …. I have mis-spoken to her in text a few times…
That’s good; she’s not a game player trying to extract your LE affection for her own ego or vanity.
“she always has corrected me from being “inappropriate” ( as a married woman she has a good sense of what is appropriate in my behavior to her )”
It sounds like she didn’t lose her head during your affectionate lunch hour and IG contact.
“She has never asked me to leave her alone, it was always my own “stupid” idea … which she firmly corrected.”
It’s understandable that inflamed LE brain is confused, anxious, suspicious, and illogical. Aren’t you glad now that at least one side of your LE stayed cool-headed? I often wonder how two mutually fevered limerents would behave, if barriers (SOs) exist?
“I am not “allowed” to talk badly about myself to her… makes her mad”
A smart young woman! Thoughts/ideas affect one’s moods and quality of one’s inner life. Demeaning/putting down oneself, even if with disadvantages (ie, a limping leg), is a NOT modesty, but a sharp “knife” to kill our self-esteem, self-respect, and self-love!
—————————————-
// I just know myself well. I am very smart, caring, friendly, and affectionate.”
Then why did you describe yourself as “not good enough” to your Friend and Wife?
“I am also , I have learned… quite “irritating”, so it’s best to be with others in small doses!”
Do you know possible causes behind this “irritating”? I believe personality traits can change if we know their formation/origins, and if we wish to improve some for our OWN psychological wellbeing.
———————————-
//// not at all, Snow…. I appreciate the well-meaning in your words and tones, and your letting me share with you… it had been a huge help to me this last week
You’re welcome. I’m very glad to hear your improvement. Keep moving forward and feel better!
Snow
I am deeply sorry if I ever offended, upset or triggered any people on this site.
It always seemed to me a caring community, and very helpful, and it still does. It is a phenomenal support site for Limerents… and for human interactions in general…. I will miss it.
You are right, I asked, and you told me the “harsh” opinions that I requested.
However, that said, my inner self tells me that I am …. as usual for me :)…. an irritant to others. And more, a bad apple in the LwL barrel.
My mind is / was clean on my LE’s and my thoughts about my LO’s. I erred in my choices of words, to ( poorly ) convey my feelings and emotions towards them. Again, I am so sorry.
I thank one and all, and especially you, Snow, for taking time to converse with me. It was a help for me, when I needed it.
No need to reply…. I shall NOT come back onto this site.
NWT,
I sincerely apologize for whatever I just said that upset/hurt you so much… I also apologize for boldly speaking for others’ responsive posts.
Please let me assure you that, based on my scanning, I don’t think anyone is offended by YOU as a person. Your LE story might have triggered one or two posters; however, in LwL, people’s LEs often triggered each other…. It’s expected.
I was/am NOT personally triggered by your LE story (no relevance to my past). Through your clear words this time, I’ve come to understand much better your mind, heart, characters and LE sufferings; I’m touched by your loving efforts to help your Friend and care for your Wife.
You’re NOT an irritant or a bad apple in LwL, but a fellow suffering limerent and my newly acquainted LwL friend.
I’ve been feeling encouraged and happy to see your progress… But, now you suddenly decide to leave … I feel bad that the my big mouth instigated your abrupt departure; I regret that I can’t be more of help to you.
I DO hope, you keep recovering (on your own?) from your LE symptoms, gaining more peace, strength and joy, so you can better help your Friend and Wife when Need you. Whenever you come to visit us again, I’ll be here for you to Chat up, if you wish.
Best wishes to YOU and those you truly care for! 🫂
Snow
makes it worse
To NTL:
Are you saying that Instagram contact ALWAYS makes it worse, or just recently?
it is bittersweet.
just a small, fleeting taste of what we once shared
honestly, I think I would cut the rope, and stop messaging her.
but I flatter myself that in some small way I am still pleasant and a comfort to her ( she is going thru some difficult and very painful issues )
she initiates almost all the messages ( I try not to bother her or intrude on her life )
Norma…
When your LO sells his house and moves…. will that become full NC?
Do you fear that, or think it will help you?
To NTL:
Good question. I fear it AND I think it will help me.
As well as I think I am doing, I believe I will backslide when LO actually sells the house and moving becomes a reality.
Since he is extremely unreliable, I am quite sure that he won’t keep in touch, which puts it on ME to not initiate contact.
After a period of adjustment, I think I’ll be okay. I have known him long enough that I feel confident that I have left no stone unturned in an attempt to form a satisfying bond with him.
It just isn’t possible.
Norma….
You are in a difficult place for sure.
I believe you have been “turning over stones” as you say. Sometimes it doesn’t work out ( I have tried with and lost friends over the years whom I was in the end unable to bond with… but I had tried ).
Doesn’t make it less painful. Personally, for ME… I don’t think I am someone who others really want to be friends with. As such I have pretty low “friend material ” self esteem.
However… YOU sound lovely and caring !!!!
To NTL:
Bless your heart for saying that! I don’t think it’s true, though.
I have never had an easy time making friends and was never popular in school.
LO seems to like me fine, but the friendship is a lot of work. Long-distance, I don’t think it will work at all.
The experience with LO has been colorful, and I guess I am glad it happened. I hope it doesn’t happen again with anyone else, though.
Today is an annual occurrence of minor importance.
Up at the corner, there is a high-end candy store that celebrates National Lollypop Day by giving out free lollypops on that day. I remember asking LO what flavor he wanted and giving mine to him on two occasions, three years ago and two years ago.
Last year I was not tempted to do this, and today I am REALLY not tempted. I feel very strongly that I have done more than enough for LO and I am getting my own damn lollypop for myself.
Progress is progress.
Norma
sound like MORE than minor importance.
Good for you!
To NTL:
I got a Chocolate Mint lollypop and I ENJOYED it.
We have to take our successes where we can find them.
LaR and Marcia,
the other coffeehouse closed, so I‘m replying here, although I cannot keep up with posts at the moment.
I think both subjects- me and maybe you being shy in our youths and later discovering we could „pull“(if that’s the right expression), and also Marcia‘s older guy -, aren’t they proof that validation is an important part in attraction? I seem to melt for people who compliment me in the right way or who react sensitive to my attractiveness, but not too much too soon, I want to be validated by the goal not being reached too easily. So, is it all about me, me, me? Or at least is limerence all about self- validation?
Sorry if that train of thought doesn’t make much sense. I just wonder if it was all about missing out in my youth. Because at the moment I seem to be out of danger, I do find people attractive or glimmer-y, but don’t have to act on it. I wonder if it was all about validation or not.
Sorry to cut in just a little bit — validation from others are so culturally different, especially in what parts of one that wish to be validated.
Speaking from a personal view, people (in general) in the East want more their “ “upper extremity” — head and heart, to be loved and valued. In the West, external validation is focused more (by proportion) on “lower extremity” — butt, legs, sex.
Children need to be unconditionally loved/validated and healthily bonded with their caregivers in their crucial age, which if missed, they tend to (not all) fall into LE spell without knowing why. (that’s my case)
The validation most of Lims talked about and sought out in life, was never my experience. I was running constantly away from unwanted “validation”/attention since teen, which later became a habit. I see its importance to millions who believe it’s the key to their happiness; but I can attest, it will not fulfill one’s mind and soul for long.
One’s previously unmet mental/emotional needs can be met in adulthood through one’s maturing SELFs with challenging therapeutic work, and “God helps those who help themselves first”.
I think one’s desire for a mutual, deep and solid connection with another human body+soul is one of LE big causes. And without the ultimate self-validation, or carefree of others’ eyes/lens, a LE root would be always within, ready to spring out…
Mila,
” I seem to melt for people who compliment me in the right way”
I’m not sure what you mean … in the right way? For me, I like compliments in general (I’m assuming you’re talking about physical appearance).
But there’s nuance to that … if it’s a compliment from a woman, that’s the lowest complient to get. (I don’t mean she’s coming onto me, just complimenting me.) It means something but not a lot. If it’s a man I’m not interested in, it means more than it does coming from a woman but it’s maybe 2nd tier. If it’s a guy like my older neighbor (like him but don’t want him), it means something more; 3rd tier. If it’s … a guy I’m interested in or heaven help me an LO … oh boy. It means the world. But within reason. Because if there are too many compliments, it doesn’t feel genuine. Or I feel like there’s a chance I’m being manipulated.
Lar,
“When it comes to a crush or an LO, it is like Marcia has said before – how rarely do the cards line up that we get a level 9 or 10 Glimmer? It is a once every five years event at best. And the probability of both parties glimmering that strongly at the same time – even more remote. ”
I don’t think I expected the LO to glimmer as strongly. That’s what I wanted, of course, but I think a lot of limerence, if one is lucky, is the limerent being limerent and the LO being interested. With that, you’ve hit the motherlode.
But actual, mutual limerence? That’s like the gods on Mt. Olympus convening and deciding to grant one of us mere mortals one of their divine gifts. Very, very rare.
“For me it is also ‘what about me does the person validate?’ and it is more about the soul than the body, really (although someone wanting to have sex with you is pretty much the ultimate validation, it’s been rare I have ever wanted that with anyone without a soulful connection also in place).”
Personally, yes, with an LO, sex would be the ulimate validation (me validating them). I don’t know if they can completely validate me with sex. How do I know how strong their feelings are? I might have some idea, but I’m not going to do a diagnostic deep dive, complete with definitions of limerence. 🙂 I’m not saying there isn’t some validation. But not ultimate. And then, he’d have to want to be with me. Sex only validates so much.
But, no, with every man I’ve hooked up with, I was not validating him by agreeing to hook up with him. As I’ve written before, some of them were crimes of opportunity. 🙂
“And if someone will validate me as a whole person (accept my flaws and my good sides as part of a whole), that’s going to be kryptonite. And that’s, in short, why I got myself into such a twist with LO.”
I’m just tossing these questions out because I’m curious. They aren’t meant to sound like indictments. 🙂
I don’t understand how she could validate your whole person if you didn’t ever really know if she validated you as a man.
“I do recognise that being able to validate oneself is the healthier way.”
How does one validate oneself as a sexual and romantic being without another person? In all seriousness, I don’t think it’s possible.
Marcia,
“[although someone wanting to have sex with you is pretty much the ultimate validation, it’s been rare I have ever wanted that with anyone without a soulful connection also in place ”]
“Personally, yes, with an LO, sex would be the ulimate validation (me validating them). I don’t know if they can completely validate me with sex. How do I know how strong their feelings are?”
We’re trying to say similar. For me – and my wording last time didn’t capture it that well – sex *can feel* like the ultimate validation, but the soulful connection (emotional validation) comes first, and then if the ‘loop is then closed’ (clumsy wording) by the person wanting sex too, that adds extra validation. Casual sex would not ever be particularly validating to me, though a little bit.
“I’m just tossing these questions out because I’m curious. They aren’t meant to sound like indictments.”
The indictment feel of my reply came from inside – I knew you weren’t trying to indict 🙂
“I don’t understand how she could validate your whole person if you didn’t ever really know if she validated you as a man.”
She (or others, if they matter enough) can validate a lot of what I want to be ‘as a man’ without confirmation of attraction or sex. The emotional connection ultimately matters the most. But you are correct – the non-validation of the attraction/sexual aspect is the missing piece. And hence the prolonged LE I experienced. I couldn’t just sit back and say “how wonderful it is that my friendship with her is so strong” (much as I would have liked to). Once we get that far with an LO, we want the whole nine yards, even if we deny it to ourselves at the time. I see this in many people’s stories on LwL as well as my own.
“How does one validate oneself as a sexual and romantic being without another person? In all seriousness, I don’t think it’s possible”
I’m the wrong person to answer it, as I’m not very good at it.
LaR,
“We’re trying to say similar. For me – and my wording last time didn’t capture it that well – sex *can feel* like the ultimate validation, but the soulful connection (emotional validation) comes first, and then if the ‘loop is then closed’ (clumsy wording) by the person wanting sex too, that adds extra validation. Casual sex would not ever be particularly validating to me, though a little bit.”
We are saying the same thing but also we’re not. I agree in that casual sex is not validating. However, for me, the emotional stuff does not come first. The attraction is first. I’d say the limerent attraction is so powerful, I’m either attaching all kind of emotional connection to it and hoping it’s there or so moved/walloped by the limerence that the sexual and emotional are intertwined. I can’t separate them.
“The indictment feel of my reply came from inside – I knew you weren’t trying to indict 🙂”
It’s hard to convey tone in one’s posts sometimes. I think I’m being funny and then I reread it after I post it and think … Hmmm … that could come off as a little bitchy. 🙂
“She (or others, if they matter enough) can validate a lot of what I want to be ‘as a man’ without confirmation of attraction or sex. ”
Well, I don’t get that. I can have good friendships that validate me as a person, who I am as a person, the qualties I bring to the table as a person. But if a man is validating me as a woman … he has to want me sexually. There’s no other way to do it. And they’re equally important. Person validation without sexual validation is a friendship. Sexual validation without person validation is casual sex.
“Once we get that far with an LO, we want the whole nine yards, even if we deny it to ourselves at the time. I see this in many people’s stories on LwL as well as my own.”
This is a good point. So I mentioned that one friend a while back. We had simliar situations. We talked about hers again a few months ago. I’d desribe her situation as an EA with a smidgen of physical stuff. She is married; he has a long-term SO. Let me be clear in that he hurt her and it took her a while to get over. But what struck me — still does, haunts me a little, even, maybe because I extrapolated it to my own situation with LO-lite — was her rather clinical, logcial, chilling (or maybe “chiling” for me to hear as a limerent) description of what she had wanted from him. She is definitely not a limerent, and it gave me insight into non-limerents. (And not in a good way, in a demoralizing way.) She never wanted the whole 9, although she was really into him and caught up in it. She was quite practical in her expectations. A little physical stuff, friendship, someone to spend time with. Whereas I’m hearing about their great connection (emotional and physical) and thinking… how could she not have fallen madly in love with him, despite her best judgment and knowing they couldn’t be togther? But I don’t think she was.
Mila, Marcia, Snow, ☕️🛖
Validation is definitely a big part of it. For me it’s something about validation from particular people (some people can speak saccharine praise and it has absolutely zero effect on me). When it comes to a crush or an LO, it is like Marcia has said before – how rarely do the cards line up that we get a level 9 or 10 Glimmer? It is a once every five years event at best. And the probability of both parties glimmering that strongly at the same time – even more remote. So maybe that’s why the validation from that one person becomes such a fixation for limmies.
For me it is also ‘what about me does the person validate?’ and it is more about the soul than the body, really (although someone wanting to have sex with you is pretty much the ultimate validation, it’s been rare I have ever wanted that with anyone without a soulful connection also in place). There are certain things about me that people will validate all the time, but more validation of those is not wanted or helpful. On the other hand, if someone (willingly and without coercion) validates the parts of me that I feel insecure about myself, that’s going to be massive. And if someone will validate me as a whole person (accept my flaws and my good sides as part of a whole), that’s going to be kryptonite. And that’s, in short, why I got myself into such a twist with LO.
I do recognise that being able to validate oneself is the healthier way. It is something I know I struggle with, and observe lots of people on here struggling with too. It’s one thing knowing that’s the best thing to do, another to find a sustainable way to do it that doesn’t rely on anyone else.
“And the probability of both parties glimmering that strongly at the same time – even more remote. So maybe that’s why the validation from that one person becomes such a fixation for limmies.”
The need for validation leads one into LE first (not all seekers), and LO’s “validation” understandably becomes the biggest one in the whole universe (— a delusion!) Now, If limmies get it (in 1~5% LEs) from LO (not themselves), will the need for validation permanently be gone? I will wage with anyone on this. 🙂
LaR, you had a mutual LO before, did she help reduce/remove your need for validation? After my LE root was “visually pushed away” by Myself in the “Waterloo battle field”, I truly felt I became ET’s “parent” instantly, due to his big flaw as an insecure Sensor /a people pleaser. For the first 4.5 years of LE, I viewed/treated him as a surrogate parent and he indeed helped me heal cptsd during the LE. How ironic is it after LE and its root are gone! Nowadays I don’t need any type of external validations, while desiring a SO. 😊
“And if someone will validate me as a whole person (accept my flaws and my good sides as part of a whole), that’s going to be kryptonite.”
I argued before a while ago: each person’s life journey up to this point is unique, no one else is QUALIFIED to completely (partially yes) validate or invalidate you (collective) at both intellectual and visceral levels. why desire to seek it externally? Who/what has made the majority of populations around the world to desire external validations in wealth, power, popularity (with preferred sex/gender)?
Does/can loving SO validate/accept you (plural) as a whole person? If Yes, why hasn’t s/he become your kryptonite? If Not, what makes you to connect with SO in the first place and then stick around him/her? And with a loving SO, why LE still takes place?
To totally validate and truly accept ONESELF is the ultimate way to get rid of the need for external, unqualified validations (besides in necessary survival environments, ie. workplaces). A Stoic mind or other sustainable, rational thinking can help one achieve this goal — a total freedom from validation seeking.
“(although someone wanting to have sex with you is pretty much the ultimate validation, it’s been rare I have ever wanted that with anyone without a soulful connection also in place)“
Personally disagree, please exclude me in “you”.
Due to COO and the personal experiences, the ultimate validation (if I want one) would be a man wanting to first have/build soulful /mental/emotional connections with me and to exclusively be with me in person, before even have sex.
Sex is so overrated in the West; I tired to learn and experiment it for a short while. But even “Heavenly” sex didn’t help strengthen the emotional/mental ties in any of my past relationship, except increase that unhealthy, emotional clinginess, due to oxytocin hormone.
I guess I’m just an androgynous knucklehead pumped by a lot of Animus. 😊
To Miss Snow:
“Androgynous Knucklehead” would be another good idea for a screen name for you.
Miss Norma,
That’s a good suggestion, but trice longer than ”Morticia”.
By the time I finish typing “Androgynous Knucklehead” correctly, I’d be exhausted to click “Post comment”. 😀
To Miss Snow:
It’s a mouthful, that’s for sure.
But also catchy.
To Miss Snow:
Even better: “Morticia, the Androgynous Knucklehead.”
Miss Norma,
My eyes are closing down before I can correctly key in my new fabulous catchy name, gifted by you…
I’m so sleepy, good night!
Just remembered to copy and paste my new name from your post!
🫂
To Miss Snow:
I’m glad you like it. You never know when it will come in handy.
LaR,
Had to move the post here.
[“Because they got married and all their sexiness went under a clampdown? 🙂”]
“Yup.”
Well, you’re in an LTR. Does your … um … sense of juiciness (for lack of a better descripction) dry up in an LTR? Is a little bit of that still bubbling? 🙂
“I can’t tell you how intoxicating (at the time) it was, seeing just how far LO was willing to push back that boundary of “nothing off the table”.”
Ah, so that’s your trigger. 🙂 I’m your girl! Well, I used to be. I’m not sure that person exists so much anymore.
It’s my trigger, too. Someone who is just slightly skiriting the edges of appropriateness. Because day-to-day life is so dry and appropriate. God, it’s so dry. When someone goes oustide the lines, it creates frisson and a little tension. And I think: Oh, that was interesting.
So was your LO like that with you or do you mean with anyone and you witnessed it? And when I when I say … nothing off the table … that included sexual conversations and graphic jokes. To be clear, that wasn’t the whole conversation. But you’d be surprised how much your side will reveal about themselves if you just ask the rigth questions.
“And with the other, there is some interesting history that doesn’t get discussed in the family … let’s just say, the dates don’t line up for all her children coming from the same source (as they are meant to have) …”
That is interesting. You mean your grandpa never asked? That’s such a middle class attitude. Shove it all under the carpet. I was raised with that attitude.
I think mine was a little bit of a ho, and that intrigues me. 🙂 It’s just a gut feeling. She never would have told me and I would never have asked.
“So you think it’s best to delete it because looking back at it in the future will only draw you back into negative rumination? ”
It’s more of a release. So I feel less tethered to the situation.
“Sad as this is to admit, I scoured social media so many times to try and find just one picture of my previous ‘biggest LO’, but it is like there is no trace.”
That’s why I have the pic of my last big LO. He is not on social media and if I get rid of it, I’ll never see him again. In my life. At all. Ever. I don’t know if LO-lite is on social media. I haven’ t looked. I DO not want to see the SO. She younger than me. Quite a bit. I don’t want that image in my head.
“Do you ever have to deal with running into him at work now, or has that prospect disappeared?”
No contact at all since the whole thing imploded.
I’m not going to contact him and he clearly isn’t going to contact me (it was months before I wasn’t checking my phone every day) … do I still have visions of running into him? Yes. But I’ve been good. But I don’t know how to get closure with this. With my last LO … I was so frustrated with him by the end. I’d reached a point where I was just done. But no so with LO-lite. Yes … blah, blah, blah (insert psychobabble here) … I know I have to “find closure within.” In all seriousness, I know it’s my job to get closure, I just don’t know how.
Marcia,
“Does your … um … sense of juiciness (for lack of a better descripction) dry up in an LTR? Is a little bit of that still bubbling?”
I’m / we’re not dead yet 🙂
“When someone goes oustide the lines, it creates frisson and a little tension. And I think: Oh, that was interesting.”
Definitely. A bit of shock factor is rare but fun.
“So was your LO like that with you or do you mean with anyone and you witnessed it? And when I when I say … nothing off the table … that included sexual conversations and graphic jokes.”
She has no filter when she is comfortable with people, but doesn’t put that side out initially (definitely not at work). So the fun part was when I realised that side existed, and that I could push those boundaries back, and test how far. It stopped being fun when I realised how deep in the weeds I’d got.
“That is interesting. You mean your grandpa never asked? That’s such a middle class attitude. Shove it all under the carpet.”
My family are very much like that, and it sucks. My SO is really not, so I have at least broken the mould.
“I think mine was a little bit of a ho, and that intrigues me. It’s just a gut feeling.”
What led you to that idea?
“It’s more of a release. So I feel less tethered to the situation.”
Makes sense. How long is it now that you’ve felt tethered – a year and more?
“I don’t know if LO-lite is on social media. I haven’t looked. I DO not want to see the SO.”
That is DEFINITELY best avoided.
“In all seriousness, I know it’s my job to get closure, I just don’t know how.”
The act of deleting the correspondence sounds a good move. This may not be a particularly desirable answer but I think a lot of it is the passage of time, and self-reflection. When I have had to get closure and felt there was a lot of unfinished business with the woman, I had to do a lot of work to unpick where it had gone wrong, what it was fair to blame myself for, and for those parts to learn and think “I’ll do it differently next time”. But also there were parts that weren’t my fault where I needed to be less harsh on myself and think ‘whatever I’d done, that would have happened anyway”. It was some and some; it can really cause a spiral if we heap all the blame on ourselves for something we were only 50% of, in my experience.
LaR,
“I’m / we’re not dead yet 🙂”
Well, a LOT of your brethren do not convey that at all.
“Definitely. A bit of shock factor is rare but fun.”
It’s also a little bit of a dare. Which in middle age came be very tempting. Given how middle age is so … tempered.
“She has no filter when she is comfortable with people, but doesn’t put that side out initially (definitely not at work).”
You’re dodging the question. 🙂 What did she talk about?
I wasn’t limerent for this guy but I had crush on him and one day he told me his entire sexual history. He did this at work, which made it even more interesting. Because you’re not really supposed to talk about those things at work. (To be clear, this is an example. The types of conversations I had with your side at this job varied in nature, some more personal/graphic in nature. Some just friendly, some very professional.)
“My family are very much like that, and it sucks. ”
Just as long as I’m understanding this … it was pretty obvious one of your grandmother’s children may not have been fathered by your grandfather (and they were togther and/or married at the time she would have gotten pregnant), and he never questioned her? Or you’re not really sure if he did?
“My SO is really not, so I have at least broken the mould.”
That’s good.
[“I think mine was a little bit of a ho, and that intrigues me. It’s just a gut feeling.”]
“What led you to that idea?”
She was quite beautiful. I’m not just saying that. Other people outside the family commented on it. I’m talking about when I was young they commented. When I was a teenager. And I remember her interacting with men/flirting/being approached.
“Makes sense. How long is it now that you’ve felt tethered – a year and more?”
Yes
” When I have had to get closure and felt there was a lot of unfinished business with the woman”
That’s exactly what it feels like. Unfinished business. I wish I had let it go on longer. The longer it went on, the more I would have gotten to know him and the more I would have found I didn’t like. I could have gotten him out of my system. I know that sounds totally selfish.
“It was some and some; it can really cause a spiral if we heap all the blame on ourselves for something we were only 50% of, in my experience.”
I couldn’t agree less. I can only speak for my onw situation … and I’ll use my last big LO as an example because I did not know what limerence was when I met him. BUT … I’d had LEs before, even I couldn’t define what they were. I’d experienced those kinds of feelings before. They had never led me anywhere good, never into a healthy relatoinship. And I was in my 40s when I met him. Not 22. I suspected pretty quickly that he was married and when I verified he was, I didn’t back away. I hung around, I encouraged him, I pursued him and the feelings. I have no one to blame but myself.
Marcia and LaR,
I‘m sorry, I started on a topic of validation and didn’t have any time to answer replies. Not much fun to converse with me these days, sorry.
I‘ll just jump on the sailing ship and pounce on that
„Unfinished business. I wish I had let it go on longer. The longer it went on, the more I would have gotten to know him and the more I would have found I didn’t like. I could have gotten him out of my system.“
I don’t know if it would pan out like that. More likely, you would have gotten more into the snares of limerence? Even though you would have seen more stuff you didn’t like about him, you would maybe also have seen stuff you liked, and physical stuff is powerful in binding one to a person. You might be more in trouble now if you had gone down that road longer. Habits form, he might have grown on you… this „getting someone out of one‘s system“ is something I felt too, but I think it’s a dangerous concept. It could go very different ways.
I do agree on blaming only oneself, also as the way to empower oneself to do it differently next time.
Mila,
“Even though you would have seen more stuff you didn’t like about him, you would maybe also have seen stuff you liked, and physical stuff is powerful in binding one to a person. ”
For women and non-limerent men. 🙂 Although there have been some limerent male posters on here who wrote about having casual sex — not with their LOs, of course– and were ok with it. No scars from it. I can have casual sex and keep it casual … but only if I’m not into the guy that much. And who wants to do that?
“You might be more in trouble now if you had gone down that road longer. Habits form, he might have grown on you… this „getting someone out of one‘s system“ is something I felt too, but I think it’s a dangerous concept. It could go very different ways.”
It’s very possible. You may be right. When I cut it off, I wanted it be over. But when he actually listened … and stopped talking to me … oh the panic set in. (Yes, I can hear myself. :))
“I do agree on blaming only oneself, also as the way to empower oneself to do it differently next time.”
Unless the limerent goes NC or LC (and I really mean LOW contact :)) … not hanging out with them once a week (that’s not LC :)) … the fault lies with the limerent. They are walking toward the limerence.
Not that going NC or LC is going to make the limerence go away immediatley. It sure doesn’t. But new interactions with the person, particularly if the interactions are intermittent or inconsistent, keeps the limerence alive and the brain ruminating and looping. The limerent has to cut off the supply.
Marcia and Mila,
On the ‘blame’ topic and your responses, some clarification. I introduced an example because Marcia was talking about difficulties finding closure. My wording didn’t make this clear, but my example wasn’t about an LE, but about the end of a relationship, whose break up we both took hard… and is the single biggest life event where I have struggled to get closure.
I don’t love the concept of ‘blame’ anyway, but the therapist I worked with helped me think about parts of the relationship and breakup that were:
A. More ‘on me’
B. ‘On both equally’
C. More ‘on her’
All three parts still contained personal learnings and things I could reflect on and think ‘what would I do differently next time?’. Even for the C parts – I could say ‘OK, why did I react like I did?’ or ‘what in me made me accept that behaviour?’. It wasn’t an attempt to absolve myself from blame, but to distill out parts from a messy whole. My natural tendency was to hold on to a very large portion of the ‘blame’, and the xSO certainly painted it that way too – and that was preventing closure. I moved on through shifting my thinking more towards “some of it was my fault, but not all of it” and realising that it takes two to tango. Your experiences may of course vary.
Marcia,
“You’re dodging the question. What did she talk about?”
Like I said, no filter. I have heard the sexual history, the things that bother her on a deep emotional level, what she wants from men in the future etc. Very personal stuff.
“and he never questioned her? Or you’re not really sure if he did?”
Your understanding was correct. I don’t know if he questioned her or not. There is much else on that side of the family that have been brushed under the carpet too. These matters, including the paternity question, are off limits to talk to my parents about, apart from once when one of them brought it all up and then later denied saying it. But I verified what they’d said to me with some maths and it checked out – my grandfather was fighting in ww2 at the time.
“And I remember her interacting with men/flirting/being approached.”
It’s always funny to think how differently hotness, flirting etc would have been expressed in that generation. Was she available when these things happened?
“The longer it went on, the more I would have gotten to know him and the more I would have found I didn’t like. I could have gotten him out of my system.”
This goes with my answer I wrote in a separate post, but it depends how much more interaction would have caused you to blame yourself. Closure takes an awful long time in that event. I think you did the right thing (really, though it didn’t feel like it) to cut him off when you did. You saw a red light and that it couldn’t go anywhere and you acted on it. Isn’t this what you tell other members of LwL to do all the time – cut it off? There is still that painful long spell to work through to close it in the limerent’s head, even after cutting it off. Couldn’t sticking with it risk that spell being even longer?
“I didn’t back away. I hung around, I encouraged him, I pursued him and the feelings. I have no one to blame but myself.”
Aren’t you contradicting yourself here? Because above you said you wished you’d let it go on longer, but here you’re saying you wish you’d cut it off before it started?
„But when he actually listened … and stopped talking to me … oh the panic set in. (Yes, I can hear myself. :))“
Ha, I know that well! I pulled back and felt virtuous, but when the LO complied and pulled back too, I was unhappy and unsatisfied..
I have to ask with LaR- the concept of getting someone out of the system by prolonging the contact seems to contradict your concept of going as LC or NC as possible immediately.
I guess it has all it’s merit at different phases in an LE. If we go NC without the necessary resolve and the feeling of „unfinished business“,chances for a relapse and following loss of trust in one‘s own capabilities to go NC are big, and relapse might be more detrimental than staying a bit longer in contact with open eyes until a real resolve is there?
LAR, thanks for clarifying about the „blaming“ issue, I hadn’t known what it really was about.
I have to apologize anyway because I only skim posts. Last weeks before summer break are as full as time before Christmas.
LaR,
“I have heard the sexual history”
Actual body count or details of the history? I don’t remember ever revealing body count to a friend (and certainly not to a romantic partner).
I’m trying to remember if I talked about my details of my sexual history with close male friends. Probably, to some extent, but much more with close female friends.
Now, the close/closer male friends I had at the time of my last big LO knew about him. And I know I told one of the male friends about this other guy I was hooking with up.
“, the things that bother her on a deep emotional level, what she wants from men in the future etc. Very personal stuff.”
Yes, I agree. That’s personal stuff.
But at least in terms of how I experience things … there’s still a difference between person validation and sexual validation.
“These matters, including the paternity question, are off limits to talk to my parents about, apart from once when one of them brought it all up and then later denied saying it. ”
Ha! Yes! This has happend with me. Even if they drop the guard ONCE to actually talk about something real … the next time you say something about it, they act like they don’t know what you’re talking about. Or they change the details! Not that you intend to discuss the topic ad naseum, but to deny/edit it later is maddening.
“But I verified what they’d said to me with some maths and it checked out – my grandfather was fighting in ww2 at the time.”
So was it one of your parents’ siblings ?
“It’s always funny to think how differently hotness, flirting etc would have been expressed in that generation. Was she available when these things happened?”
I wasn’t clear. I was a teenger or maybe even as old as early to mid-20s at the time. She was at least early 60s if not older at the time. People weren’t looking at old pictures of her. They were commenting on her current apeparance, for example. I’m not saying it happened a lot — it didn’t — but enough for me to remember it. Because you don’t think of your grandparents as being attractive and sexual. Not when you’re young. With the instance where she was approached, yes, she was available. I think the flirting incident was just to flirt. I don’t remember if she was availalbe or not at the time. I don’t know if the guys (yes, there were two!) started the flirting or if she did. I wasn’t there when she started talking to them.
“This goes with my answer I wrote in a separate post, but it depends how much more interaction would have caused you to blame yourself. ”
I read that post. That is a totally different situation. In your other post, you’re talking about an actual romantic relationship with someone and assessing your blame and theirs when it ended. And, yes, I agree with what you wrote. While no one is soley responsible (and to completely blame the other person is innately ridiculous — there are two people in a relationship, in any kind of relationship), to shoulder most of the blame is also not a good thing. Because, again … there are two people in the relationship.
But limerence (the kind talked about on here) is not a relationship. It is knowingly pursuing someone when either they are not avaialable or you are not or both or when both parties are available but one party is not interested. (And I define pursuing as any behavior where you do not back away as much as possible.) It is knowingly pursuing feelings (feelings you know to be strong and are well aware are not just friendship) when you know the situation is a dead end. Yes, the limerent is responsible for that.
“You saw a red light and that it couldn’t go anywhere and you acted on it. ”
Well, it never could go anywhere. Not really. I knew that when I responded to his initial email.
“Isn’t this what you tell other members of LwL to do all the time – cut it off?”
In all honesty, I never should have started it.
Mila and LaR;
“Aren’t you contradicting yourself here? Because above you said you wished you’d let it go on longer, but here you’re saying you wish you’d cut it off before it started?”
Of course I’m contradicting myself. I’m a limerent. 🙂
I’ll try to explain. Should I have backed away from my last big LO when I found out he was married? Yes. Should I have never responded to LO-lite’s initial email (I knew he wasn’t available)? Yes.
However .. given that I didn’t do those things … and given that I wanted some big, sexy affair with both of them (just to be clear)… with the last big LO, it was basically a work flirtation. Yes, he disclosed to a certain extent, and yes, some touchy/feeling stuff happened, but he never contacted me once outside of work. And it became evident he wasn’t ever going to (that I would never get what I really wanted from him) … I’d say within … idk … 6-ish months of knowing him. Something happened (I won’t get into specifics) where that became obvious. Very obvious. And I didn’t listen to the glaring signs (read: loud bullhorn). I didn’t want to listen. And I kept pushing and I kept pursuing. But you can only get to know so much about someone at work, and he was never going to let things go beyond that. So me hanging around, month after month, year after year (deep down hoping he would change his mind) … was a total waste of time. I’d learned as much as I was ever going to learn about him and the situation. And I don’t think that’s unusual. Read most of the posts on here. There are patterns of behavior established by and with the LOs. How many times does a limerent need to see them?
With LO-lite … you get to know someone on a whole different level when you have sex with them. The person I saw at work was not the person who I hooked up with. (And the hooking up happened pretty quickly after disclosure. Disclosure caused the limerence. I was attracted in the beginning but not yet limerent. And the whole thing moved fast after disclosure. I made a point of making sure I wasn’t hanging around forever, wasting all kinds of time, like I did with my last big LO. ) I saw enough about LO-lite to question whether I actually liked him as a person. So is it possible I could have hung around just a little bit longer and learned even more about him that I didn’t like so that LE would have lessened and I wouldn’t have experiened such anxiety? Yes. I mean, hang around for 2 to 3 more weeks. Not months and years. But maybe I’m in denial about that. And, ulimately, it’s a moot point now.
Marcia,
I can relate to everything you say!
But then you might see why it is also for other limerents very hard or even not the right path to immediately follow NC advice. Sometimes we have to face the truth of the other person and of the situation for long enough time to be able to be ready to go NC.
Of course there’s plenty of dangerous opportunity there to go wrong, to hang on, to lie to ourselves we are getting them out of our system while we just want to be with them etc.
But in some situations it helps to get to know them better, so as they don’t stay these perfect creatures in our minds with whom we virtuously didn’t hook up, but who remain as toxic ghosts of perfection in our limerent minds.
Of course it’s best to run immediately in the beginning before we got in too deep. But once we are in deep (and I guess this is more tricky as a single person. As a married person you should probably simply run the moment someone glimmers. But as a Single on the lookout for a partner, you might be in too deep the moment you realize that this isn’t going to lead to a relationship you want), there might be the necessity to live through some pain and disappointment, and as you say, get to know the reality of LO, to enable us to fight through to NC? Not sure about it all, but it sure isn’t as simple as „just go MC by all means“, that’s always been my opinion.
Maybe it helps to think, the person we were who didnt go NC, who couldn’t resist, wasn’t just able to do that back then, and there’s no use scolding them now because they were simply not capable of that.
Now we learned the hard way and are different persons who will be able to do so. Or so I hope…
Mila,
“But then you might see why it is also for other limerents very hard or even not the right path to immediately follow NC advice. ”
I think NC is always the right path. IMO.
“Sometimes we have to face the truth of the other person and of the situation for long enough time to be able to be ready to go NC.”
But that’s just it … I knew “the truth” within a few months in regards to my last big LO. I did not need to hang around for years. There was nothing new to glean. And, really, if I’d been more direct with him sooner, I could have saved myself even more time (which is why I was pretty direct with LO-lite very early on in our interactions after disclosure; I did want a repeat of what happened with my last big LO … perceived vague nebulousness about what was happening between us; I write “perceived” because I was in denial about what was right in front of me).
“Of course there’s plenty of dangerous opportunity there to go wrong, to hang on, to lie to ourselves we are getting them out of our system while we just want to be with them etc.”
That’s what I did. I even went LC for a while, lying to myself that running into him every now and then wouldn’t bother me. (This was well into the LE.) But running into him DID bother me, even though the LE was no longer at its peak. On some level it angered me. Is this really ALL you want to talk about? What you had for lunch? Do you have NOTHING else to say to me? (And of course … he didn’t.)
“As a married person you should probably simply run the moment someone glimmers. ”
Yes
“But as a Single on the lookout for a partner, you might be in too deep the moment you realize that this isn’t going to lead to a relationship you want”
Like I wrote, I suspected pretty quickly after we first started talking he was married. VERY flirtatious … and then he just stopped. Didn’t ask for my number or ask me out. Again, all of this was right in front of me, if I’d just paid attention.
“Maybe it helps to think, the person we were who didn’t go NC, who couldn’t resist, wasn’t just able to do that back then, and there’s no use scolding them now because they were simply not capable of that.”
I think a limerent can resist. I’m not saying it’s easy. It’s not by any means. It’s very difficult.
Marcia,
“Actual body count or details of the history?”
I haven’t asked for or got the body count directly but I have had snippets on different occasions that mean I could roughly piece it together, assuming she has been truthful. I’ve had more details about particular people (not anyone I know, though). Now, to be clear, she does put some of that stuff out to her female friends too.
“I don’t remember ever revealing body count to a friend (and certainly not to a romantic partner).”
I am not sure I know the exact number for my SO even – roughly, but I don’t remember asking a direct question.
“Now, the close/closer male friends I had at the time of my last big LO knew about him.”
Did they/any of them know the LO too?
“But at least in terms of how I experience things … there’s still a difference between person validation and sexual validation.”
Yes – I see them as different things too. They can get wrapped up in the mind – you can have either one without the other in theory, but for a relationship to go anywhere needs some of both. In different ways, we both know this.
“So was it one of your parents’ siblings?”
Yes – they’re the ‘product’.
“But limerence (the kind talked about on here) is not a relationship. It is knowingly pursuing someone when either they are not avaialable or you are not or both or when both parties are available but one party is not interested.”
True, but in some cases both parties are pursuing, and sometimes it is the limerent who is available and the LO not, sometimes vice versa. If it’s the LO who is unavailable, some blame has to go to them if they don’t back away – both should know better in that case. The other way round where the limerent is unavailable then OK
we do have to accept the lion’s share of blame.
“In all honesty, I never should have started it.”
Sure, that’s a good admission. But he also did bits of starting it (‘ratchets’ in your words), and he’s unavailable – that’s what I mean by ‘takes two to tango’ and about closure being about realising that it is never just your fault. But that can be possible at the same time as accepting responsibility for your parts of it, like you already do.
“Yes. I mean, hang around for 2 to 3 more weeks. Not months and years. But maybe I’m in denial about that.”
I feel pretty confident you won’t do the hanging around again like you did with your last big LO. Not hanging around has been a pretty firm editorial line of yours across my time here 🙂
Hi Marcia,
“I think a limerent can resist. I’m not saying it’s easy. It’s not by any means. It’s very difficult.”
That’s what I’m saying… from the outside it seems clear that they should and can resist and go NC . When you are limerent, then it’s like you write:
“I was in denial about what was right in front of me).”
I mean, that’s why limerence is so hellish, isn’t it- the choice is there, but it’s not there in our confused heads.
I’m not sure about it, but I think or hope now, with past LE experiences under my belt, I could make that choice.
It seems the negative experiences with limerence and glimmers and all that finally reached the critical mass to tip balance to true recognition of the futility. It’s easy to say that now, I know.
Humans are so difficult. Now I’m going to sit on my front step and try to tan my legs which are very white. Just if that is of any interest to anyone.
Hi Marcia,
While I wrote the last post, I just remembered that I wanted to tell you that I’m in awe of your self-beautifying project you mentioned- getting in shape and such. You are so disciplined! I’m not. I don’t seem to be able to stick to healthy food and lifestyle.
Hi Mila,
Before I forget… I meant to tell you I’m eating a new dark chocolate. (One small piece a day.) Alter Eco, 85%, Classic Blackout bar. Is it good? It’s not Hu, but Hu is 70%. Makes a big difference. Eco is what I call BTN. Better than nothing. (Although it’s much better than that terrible Lindt.)
“I mean, that’s why limerence is so hellish, isn’t it- the choice is there, but it’s not there in our confused heads.”
I don’t agree. Limerence does not take away basic reasoning and decision-making skills.
I wanted what I wanted, but, really, if I’m being honest with myself (and following the advice I’ve given MJ) … My last big LO showed me what he was willing to do in about the first week or two. Had I paid attention. I remember having conversations about him with a friend, confused about what he was doing. I KNEW something was off! I’ve told MJ that a woman will say yes and show up on the date if she’s interested; the flip of that … the man will ask the woman out if he has interest and intention. He will try to move things forward. My answer was right in front of me. Basically … what he was willing to do … amounted to nothing.
Now here’s a second point … the limerent doesn’t walk away because they WANT the internal angst, the internal conflict, the ruminating, the torture. Because it occupies their mind ? Pulls them out of every day life ? I’m not sure on that one. Because, if you read enough posts, you see a theme. It’s a novel with little plot. No action. All internal monologue. 🙂
“It seems the negative experiences with limerence and glimmers and all that finally reached the critical mass to tip balance to true recognition of the futility. It’s easy to say that now, I know.”
That’s the stage I’m in now with LO-lite. The “utter futility” stage. Whatever you do … call, don’t call, text, don’t text … heck, show up at their house in lingerie! … it doesn’t matter. Won’t change the situation.
“Now I’m going to sit on my front step and try to tan my legs which are very white. Just if that is of any interest to anyone.”
Why would you do that? 🙂
“I just remembered that I wanted to tell you that I’m in awe of your self-beautifying project you mentioned- getting in shape and such. You are so disciplined! ”
It’s not discipline; it’s vanity. Nothing like that thought of having to disrobe in front of someone new that will get you motivated.
Marcia!
I just accidentally erased my whole answer to you and now I’m too tired. I’ll try again tomorrow! (You didn’t miss much though, I was just rambling, maybe my phone decided wisely to cut me off)
LaR,
“I haven’t asked for or got the body count directly but I have had snippets on different occasions that mean I could roughly piece it together, assuming she has been truthful. ”
You can piece together what she’s told you but there may be men she doesn’t even talk about. Men she doesn’t count. 🙂 (I’m being silly.)
“I am not sure I know the exact number for my SO even – roughly, but I don’t remember asking a direct question.”
I would never ask someone that. I would never answer the question myself. I don’t know want to know. Because there are numbers a man could tell me that would creep me out so much I wouldn’t want to hook up with him again. I think a broad (VERY BROAD) detailing of romantic history/relationships is fine. I do not want to know sexual details. Because now I have images in my head … that I never wanted. There are things a guy could tell me he’d done sexually that would turn me off completely. Or things I’d worry I couldn’t compete with.
“Did they/any of them know the LO too?”
All big one happy family. 🙂
My male friend knew my LO and LO’s friend. What LO’s friend knew about my feelings for LO … we never discussed it. He must have suspected because he made a comment about him, clearly meant to make me jealous and rile me up (about my LO and other women). I didn’t respond. But other than that, we never discussed my LO. And what his friend told my LO … Idk. I’ll never know.
[“So was it one of your parents’ siblings?”]
“Yes – they’re the ‘product’.”
So I have to ask … does this person look different than the other children from that marriage?
” If it’s the LO who is unavailable, some blame has to go to them if they don’t back away – both should know better in that case. The other way round where the limerent is unavailable then OK
we do have to accept the lion’s share of blame.”
Whatever the case, you (general “you”) and you alone are responsible for the boundaries you put up with people. You cannot expect people who are not heavily invested in you (they’re not your SO or a family member) to consider your best interests and back away.
“Sure, that’s a good admission. But he also did bits of starting it (‘ratchets’ in your words), and he’s unavailable – that’s what I mean by ‘takes two to tango’ ”
Oh, definitely. Both of them did. I was very angry at my last big LO for a while. I felt he led me on, and he did. But it was still my job to walk away.
“and about closure being about realising that it is never just your fault. ”
I feel that it is my fault. I knew both of them were unavailable. It’s on me.
“I feel pretty confident you won’t do the hanging around again like you did with your last big LO. Not hanging around has been a pretty firm editorial line of yours across my time here 🙂”
Well, it’s easy for me to say that now. The option isn’t there. 🙂
Hi Marcia,
Alter Eco, really? Sounds like one of those hairdresser- salon- name-puns😂I it seems they are also not very available here in my country, only online.
„ the limerent doesn’t walk away because they WANT the internal angst, the internal conflict, the ruminating, the torture. Because it occupies their mind ? Pulls them out of every day life ?“
That’s an interesting angle- the limerent not going for validation, attractive persons, romance, feeling alive, but for all the drama, because it’s completely occupying the mind.
Well, my legs do look better tanned than pale. Also, it’s easier to hold my legs into the sun instead of eating less sugar or similar beautifying activities that might afford a little willpower from my side.
I get where your willpower comes from, but it’s still admirable, from my perspective.
Hi Mila,
“it seems they are also not very available here in my country, only online.”
Where do you live? You can’t find anything there! 🙂
“That’s an interesting angle- the limerent not going for validation, attractive persons, romance, feeling alive, but for all the drama, because it’s completely occupying the mind.”
Well, I think it’s a combination of all of it. But the drama is HUGE! I really think it is. Makes life feel like there’s something exciting about to happen and something at stake. And you lose that feeling when you move into middle age because … well, you pretty much know what’s going to happen on a day-to-day basis. You go to dinner on a Saturday night and you pretty much know exactly what time
you’ll get home.
“Well, my legs do look better tanned than pale.”
Were you able to get them tanned in 1 day? Do you tan easily?
I don’t bother trying to get tan anymore. I call my pale skin “boudoir skin.” Ha HA HA
“I get where your willpower comes from, but it’s still admirable, from my perspective.”
Thank you. It’s a struggle every day.
Hi Marcia,
„ Where do you live? You can’t find anything there!“
That’s so true!! It’s annoying.
„ well, you pretty much know what’s going to happen on a day-to-day basis.“
Somehow at the moment that‘s what I feel safe with. Maybe it’s because the ageing parents-something could happen on that front every day, or because the kids are growing and will leave soonishly- I’m actually quite content with predictable good stuff at the moment.
My legs tan easily but not that quick. I like the word „boudoir skin“! And it’s actually much healthier to avoid the sun, as my dermatologist told me.
Still, my legs… I don’t know, they look pasty.
„ It’s a struggle every day.“
You are not supposed to say that. You are supposed to say that it would be very easy if I would get off my ass and just start . Oh, well. Maybe tomorrow.
👋🏻
My contribution to this conversation is to recommend getting a body lotion with gradual self-tan in it. I use a Garnier one. It smells ok and works well on pasty legs.
This is about all I can contribute here at the moment 😂
Hi Mila,
[“Where do you live? You can’t find anything there!”]
You have to move out of Siberia. 🙂
“I’m actually quite content with predictable good stuff at the moment.”
Are you? I envy that. I’m not excited about anything right now. Oh, I might have a decent time or a pleasant time, but excitement is a strong word.
The last time I felt that was when I waiting for a visit from you-know-who. I’m talking level-10, I’m-drinking-shots-to-calm-down excitement. And I wonder if I’ll ever feel that way again about anything. Maybe the Universe only doles out so many of those.
“And it’s actually much healthier to avoid the sun, as my dermatologist told me.”
There are two schools of thought on that. One is to avoid the sun and always wear sunblock. The other is to walk outside for about 20 minutes during the daylight hours, preferably in the morning, and without sunblock so your body can produce Vitamin D and maintain your circadian rhythms. But 20 mins. Not suntanning for hours.
“You are not supposed to say that. You are supposed to say that it would be very easy if I would get off my ass and just start ”
Unless you enjoy making all your own meals, eating healthy food and exercising… yes, it’s a struggle. I personally like none of these things. 🙂
Hi Imho!
So good to hear from you!
So this self-tanning stuff, does it look real? And is it healthy? I have to google it. I google everything, it’s an obsession.
And how are you? Vacation coming up? Things are going well in the job? Vague memories of something coming up, change of responsibilities or taking on a new project? Sorry, I cannot remember properly!
Hi Marcia,
I know what you mean with the lack of excitement. It just doesn’t bother me at the moment, not as much as at did bother me a while ago. I wondered if it wasn’t due to external non-exciting life, but due to my own body chemistry- not being able to feel that kind of excitement any more, hormones.
For a certain kind of feeling dull and sometimes depressed I stopped taking my gestagen. The verdict is still out, but I think I feel better and more alive without it. Could be I have to take it in the future again if estrogen will be needed, but at the moment I feel better without it.
Don’t know if that rings a bell with you at all, I guess not since you could feel excited not too long ago.
For some reason, now, I‘m kind of ok with not having that dangerous, exciting stuff that you describe. Its heady stuff and I used to miss it too. But maybe for the reasons I named (anxiety that something happens with parents etc) I only feel the need for contentment and peace at the moment. Life phases, I guess.
As to sun- I‘m anyway not one to fry in the sun for hours. These morning walks sound so nice, they are supposed to regulate your cortisol or circadian rhythm or whatever, but they don’t fit at all in the rhythm either the kids. Do you do that?
The only thing from the stiff you mentioned I do enjoy is exercise to some extent, but I haven’t found a routine that doesn’t give me lower back pain at some point. I seem to have a condition there. Its a bit frustrating. Do you go to the gym or do you exercise at home/outside?
And is there a prospect or timeline set, until which you want to be in shape?
Mila,
“I wondered if it wasn’t due to external non-exciting life, but due to my own body chemistry- not being able to feel that kind of excitement any more, hormones.”
Couldn’t it be both? Hideous hormone changes in this phase of female life but also nothing exciting externally ? (I’m guessing.)
“Don’t know if that rings a bell with you at all, I guess not since you could feel excited not too long ago.”
It let me know I wasn’t dead yet. It was a revelation, tbh.
Of course, it came attached with all kinds of other crap. As limerence always does. That’s the problem.
“But maybe for the reasons I named (anxiety that something happens with parents etc) I only feel the need for contentment and peace at the moment. Life phases, I guess.”
I guess maybe I’m stunted. I know I’m not 22 and I don’t feel 22 (physically and mentally). I’m a very different person than when I was young but on some level the things that my inner self craves really haven’t changed since I was young. Being in the “life phase” of middle age hasn’t really changed that. If that makes any sense.
“These morning walks sound so nice, they are supposed to regulate your cortisol or circadian rhythm or whatever”
Yes
“Do you do that?”
I don’t, no. I should.
“The only thing from the stuff you mentioned I do enjoy is exercise to some extent, but I haven’t found a routine that doesn’t give me lower back pain at some point.”
I have the same issue. I have to do a dumbbell row, for example, for the back, one arm at a time instead of doing both arms at the same time or my lower back starts to hurt.
“Do you go to the gym or do you exercise at home/outside?”
At home. I’m too cheap to pay for a gym. 🙂 And I can’t see myself actually getting into my workout clothes, putting on makeup, driving over there, etc. Too much of a pain in the butt.
“And is there a prospect or timeline set, until which you want to be in shape?”
I have a timeline for losing the weight. As for getting “in shape,” that’s hard to answer. You can see some results in maybe a few months, but to really change your body composition, you’re looking at at least 6 months, if not a year, of consistent working out, eating healthfully, and progressively overloading the workouts. You have to challenge yourself over time. Can’t keep doing the same workout over and over with the same weights.
I have limitations … I have to work out at home and I will not do more than 3 hours a week. I know myself. That’s my limit. How “in shape” can I get? I don’t know.
Hi Marcia,
„ . I’m a very different person than when I was young but on some level the things that my inner self craves really haven’t changed since I was young. Being in the “life phase” of middle age hasn’t really changed that. If that makes any sense.“
It does make sense! And maybe it‘s because what you crave is simply what you need at the moment, regardless of age- connection, the excitement to meet someone interesting. It‘s not asked too much, and it will happen. Maybe stay open that these things might come round an unexpected corner (like, someone who doesn’t seem your type at first etc)
But actually I shouldn’t talk or give advice. I‘m out of the whole dating thing for so long, I have no idea.
Regarding fitness, 3 times an hour a week sounds ideal, no?
I’m in a very nice gym and have been going there regularly for quite a time, but I start to lose motivation because the same back problems crop up as always. Maybe machines are not my thing. But Pilates and Yoga gave me back pain too.
So I booked myself a Thaimassage today. Wish me luck that it doesn’t give me back pain too…it’s very possible with me.
Hi Mila,
“regardless of age- connection, the excitement to meet someone interesting. It‘s not asked too much, and it will happen. Maybe stay open that these things might come round an unexpected corner (like, someone who doesn’t seem your type at first etc)”
I wasn’t talking just about men. But life in general. If I have to sit through another one of these “women’s lunches” … do middle-aged women do anything else with their friends but get lunch?
“Regarding fitness, 3 times an hour a week sounds ideal, no?”
Depends on what you do with the time.
Over 40 … a woman should be prioritizing weight training. Secondary to that would be HIIT. But minimal amounts. I do 5 minutes at the end of the workout. 30 seconds on/30 off. Kettlebell swings. I hate them.
If you want to change the shape of your body, you have to lift and you have to keep challenging yourself. And you have to do the right movement patterns … push, pull, hinge, squat/lunge, bridge/thrust. And don’t forgot the abductions! Have to get that side butt! Have to build that glute shelf! 🙂
So I do the best I can at home … but I’m not going to join a gym.
“I’m in a very nice gym and have been going there regularly for quite a time, but I start to lose motivation because the same back problems crop up as always. Maybe machines are not my thing. But Pilates and Yoga gave me back pain too.”
Have you talked to a trainer there for suggestions? I mean … someone you trust?
“So I booked myself a Thaimassage today. Wish me luck that it doesn’t give me back pain too…it’s very possible with me.”
How did it go?
Hi Marcia,
“But life in general. If I have to sit through another one of these “women’s lunches” … do middle-aged women do anything else with their friends but get lunch?”
Well, I seem to get coffee with them all the time. But most of my woman friends are younger than me. What would you prefer instead of lunch, like boozy club nights? I’m asking seriously. Could be that every single one of you is secretly bored and just waiting for someone else to suggest something different…
Glute shelf! Great word.
The trainers at my gym are not really trustworthy, I think. I’ve decided to try that PT with added workout space that my very sporty colleague recommended.
I want to find something that I can do regularly without too much fuss/thinking after a while, that I can keep up without getting back issues after a while.
The massage was as expected- it felt nice, but actually everything was a bit worse after a while afterwards. That’s my experience with massage , to be honest…thanks for asking!
Marcia,
“there may be men she doesn’t even talk about. Men she doesn’t count 🙂 (I’m being silly.)”
But as much as we don’t need to know others’ body counts … we all know our own … don’t we?!
Many people mis-report this stat. A friend once told me his body count was 50. In my head I was like ‘yeah maybe across this and your previous nine lifetimes’.
[“Did they/any of them know the LO too?”]
“All big one happy family. ”
That sounds uncomfortable, those men all knowing each other, and you not knowing who had said what to who. There is a bit of a ‘happy family’ around LO and I. I have been surprised none of them has ever asked me about it, and wonder if they’ve asked LO (one of them is much closer to her than to me). There have been jokes about us, but that’s all they’ve been. There was just one person at work tried to stir this pot with me. I cut the topic off and it was never revisited.
“So I have to ask … does this person look different than the other children from that marriage?”
Very much so. Like – impossibly different. I think that’s what got my and my siblings’ attention onto it. Nobody checks things closely that don’t need checking 🙂.
” But it was still my job to walk away.”
Fair enough. And in a way that is always the case, as you’re saying. We all know when we *should* walk away. But some people make it easier to walk away from them than others do. I think from what you’re saying that your big LO was making it easy to walk, but you still didn’t for a long time?
Hi Mila,
“Well, I seem to get coffee with them all the time. ”
That’s a catch-up. That’s you telling your friend what’s going on with you, your friend telling you what’s going on with her, and then going home. A totally different experience than going out and doing something fun together.
“What would you prefer instead of lunch, like boozy club nights? ”
Yes! Why can’t we go out at night? Are we 105 and we can’t drive at night?
It doesn’t even have to be late. A movie, some live music, a happy hour.
“Could be that every single one of you is secretly bored and just waiting for someone else to suggest something different…”
I have suggested different things. Right off the top of my head … One never wants to go out at night; another will do different things but cancels about 50% of the time; one I see maybe once a year. One I stopped hanging out with because she was even more unreliable than the 50-percenter. But … she was good at talking to people (read: men :)). I opened the conversation; she kept it going.
“Glute shelf! Great word.”
That’s the word for it. Booty shelf.
You have to hit upper butt, lower butt and side butt. 🙂
“I’ve decided to try that PT with added workout space that my very sporty colleague recommended.”
That sounds like a good idea if you’re experiencing pain.
“The massage was as expected- it felt nice, but actually everything was a bit worse after a while afterwards. That’s my experience with massage , to be honest…”
Have you tried acupuncture?
“Have you tried acupuncture?”
If I can just sidle up to the ladies’ table for a second … years ago I went to a chiropractor because of recurring lower back pain, which had also spread to my legs. He used acupuncture along with other back manipulation exercises. I had about 8-10 sessions spread over 6 weeks. It cleared the stubborn back pain and it then stayed away for years.
I was sceptical about whether acupuncture would work, but it did. You need someone that knows what they’re doing – SO and other friends have had less positive experiences of it.
Ok, I’ll leave you both to enjoy your coffees, unless you find a nightclub open till 2am with massage chairs on site.
Hi Marcia,
They don’t even want to go and see a movie? Or have a cocktail at sunset or something, can be alcohol-free by all means? Maybe just keep suggesting!
You know, this kind of routine-elder-stuff is maybe why I tend to befriend younger people..
I do have one much older friend and two friends at my age, but my friend circle at work is at least 10 years younger than me.even 20, in some cases. They are more interested in life, more positive, more curious about everything than my older colleagues. I don’t join them in all their youthful activities, of course, but there’s enough common ground to be friends. They are always up for a movie or an evening out. The good thing is they do it anyway and I can join or not.
Marcia and LaR,
Yes, acupuncture! Actually I had a similar problem a few years ago, and acupuncture helped. I also had acupuncture that didn’t help, I agree that it depends on the person who does it.
So if , for short term solution, the doctor (who will hopefully do some chiropractic) won’t help, I’ll go to the other one who does acupuncture. I find it a bit scary though. And it will have to wait until after vacation too.
The pt with exercises is meant to be the longterm solution.
Thanks for your suggestions!
„You have to hit upper butt, lower butt and side butt. 🙂“
That seem to be exactly the exercises that don’t do my lower back good. Annoying. I want to get my butt in shape but don’t dare to exercise it now.
Hi Mila,
“They don’t even want to go and see a movie? Or have a cocktail at sunset or something, can be alcohol-free by all means? Maybe just keep suggesting!”
Nah. I don’t do that anymore.
“You know, this kind of routine-elder-stuff is maybe why I tend to befriend younger people…”
It’s who I happen to meet.
“my friend circle at work is at least 10 years younger than me.even 20, in some cases. They are more interested in life, more positive, more curious about everything than my older colleagues. I don’t join them in all their youthful activities, of course, but there’s enough common ground to be friends. They are always up for a movie or an evening out. The good thing is they do it anyway and I can join or not.”
That’s what I need. A friend circle. I would love one. I have had a couple of instances of making friends with two women at the same time in the last few years, and then we all hung out together. That was fun; felt like high school or college. But the friendships were short-lived. One of the group friendships formed around an activity and when that activity ended, we hung out a couple of times after, but the last plans we made never happened. I tried to confirm them over a group chat a couple of weeks before they were to occur; one did a thumbs up emoji and the other didn’t respond (she was the one who suggested the plans, they were at her house!). The day came and went … no one said a word. I’d already brought them up. It was really the job of the one who invited us to say something.
“Actually I had a similar problem a few years ago, and acupuncture helped. I also had acupuncture that didn’t help”
I find this to be true when also going to the chiropractor.
“That seem to be exactly the exercises that don’t do my lower back good. Annoying. I want to get my butt in shape but don’t dare to exercise it now.”
Oh, yeah, in your case, I wouldn’t do anything that you didn’t run by a PT.
But let’s be honest … the ass goes to hell in middle-aged. For both sides. It kind of moves from the back to the front of the body. I call it less-butt-more-gut syndrome. 🙂
I have been doing very well recently, helped along by LO’s predictable off-putting behavior.
But I had almost forgotten about one thing that sets me backward–my dreams.
I had a doozy of a dream about LO, perhaps inspired by all the sexy talk above (?).
I hate it when this happens. It’s nobody’s fault, but it takes me a while to recover.
Hello Norma
No, dreams are never the dreamers fault, true.
But they can have powerful effects. As I have learned in my life.
Some dreams have never quite fully left me.
To NTL:
I would agree with that. I am especially affected when the dreams are about LO.
I hate it that he has so much influence over me. And why? We really have so little in common.
Damn, subconscious…
Triggers are where you stumble across them.
A few days ago I was picking up a prescription. I could see the drive thru window. The woman at the window looked like LO #4 did 15 years ago as the LE was talking off except for her hair.
If the woman would have had wavy auburn hair, she might have zeroed me out in the store.
In my life, I’ve run into more than one person in places I’ve never expected to encounter them.
It will fade. How fast is another performance indicator.
To L.E.:
Point taken. Ugh. Something else to worry about.
I have already experienced the “mistaken identity” thing a number of times, but with my mother. Despite the fact that she has been gone for over 25 years, I still think I see her sometimes in stores, and I have to do a double-take.
It hasn’t happened with LO, but it’s only a matter of time.
I would love to hear how Imho, Bewitched and Lost in Space are doing!
No answer,
but in case Lost in Space shows up:
Have you read that Glen Hansard of the film “Once” died in a motorcycle crash? How sad!
Hi Mila,
Yeah I heard the news this morning. So so sad… 😢
I put on the Once soundtrack while driving today and started singing along – when his voice rises with emotion in “When your mind’s made up” I absolutely lost it and spent the rest of the drive sobbing. It was incredible how much emotion his voice could convey.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UdQhFXaUqLM&ra=m
I’d actually been listening to Glen last week – he and his co-star from Once released a new album last year and I just heard it for the first time. That led to me checking his tour dates thinking about how I’d never seen him live and how much I’d like to. He didn’t have any US tour dates scheduled, but I saw that in August he was scheduled to play at an event in London that I really wished I could attend – it was going to be a screening of a documentary called Farewell Transmission – a film about the life and music of Jason Molina, another musician I love who died too young – followed by Glen and a few other performing a set of Jason Molina songs.
Glen actually recorded the song Farewell Transmission a decade ago on a tribute album after Jason Molina died. Here’s a version of him performing it live more recently:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H04ii32NL2w&ra=m
“The real truth about it is
No one gets it right
The real truth about it is
We’re all supposed to try
I will be gone, but not forever
We will be gone, but not forever
The big star is falling
Long dark blues
Through the static and distance
Long dark blues
A farewell transmission
Long dark blues
Listen
Long dark blues
Listen
Listen
Lost in Space,
https://youtu.be/rpGE9g1PoAY?is=C0EzTtmZ5rYqLyVt
Well I didn’t know him or his work as well as you. It‘s still very sad to me. I love that video in the Carnegie Hall. Life can be over so quickly.
I almost don’t dare to ask if your LO passed her exams and how everything is going? Don’t answer if you don’t want to go there!
Hi Mila! I’ve been thinking it was time for an update, hence me lurking here and seeing your messages. I’m sorry it’s been so long!! I’ve browsed here from time to time – it sounds like you’re fully out of limerence and doing pretty well?
I actually have a lot to share, but don’t have time to write a long post today – I’ll do a proper post (or two or three) sometime soon. But for now, I’ll say that the highlights of the last ~six months include:
– Falling out of limerence with LO! Like going entire days without once thinking about her. It’s been amazing!
– Discovering that when my brain isn’t hijacked by limerence or some other hyperfocus and I’m not ruminating about one thing over and over, my thoughts are actually super unfocused and scattered and chaotic
– Getting evaluated and diagnosed with ADHD and starting on treatments (I have some thoughts and theories about ADHD and limerence I want to share)
– Continuing to interact with LO and work on her assignments with her and have friendly conversations from time to time while no longer being limerent for her
– Subsequently catching a glimmer from someone else
– LO graduating from school and passing her exams!!! And me feeling SO happy and proud of her when she told me she’d passed and is now an RN
– Me developing a low-level LE with that glimmery someone else, but very much “limerence-lite” with maybe 10% the intensity and me taking intentional steps to keep it that way
– Ongoing good times at home with SO and the kids, with no major life events but just a lot of good times living life together
– LO telling me just yesterday that she’s accepted a new job and our last day working together will be in two weeks, which I’m feeling surprisingly ok with (although I’m sure it played a role in my music-induced crying session yesterday)
– Me also likely about to change positions within our organization (a nice promotion and an interesting/challenging assignment that I think I’ll enjoy a lot) – although I’ll still be spending half my time at my current workplace
Anyway, that’s the bullet point version, I’ll write more later with some more details and some thoughts I’ve had about all of it
Hope you are well!!!
-LiS
Lost in Space,
wow, so good to hear from you! It sounds like a lot of change happening in your life, and actually quite positive changes!
I‘m so glad your LO passed her tests and got a new job. Maybe it‘ll give her the self-confidence to leave her SO. Or would you see and describe him with more benevolent eyes now that the limerent glasses are off? (But don’t want to throw questions at you before you completed your report posts;)- just ignore me).
Also, I‘m so happy that your limerence and all that hot-cold-carousel ended and that there seem to be no bad feelings left.
I guess the new glimmer helped a bit? Or not?
It’s almost unnecessary that I point out the danger of your low-level limerence to you, I guess…
things can escalate quickly to the next level if unexpected situations and triggers arise that aren’t under your control.. but as I said, it’s so obvious that you know it yourself, of course.
Me, I transferred two times to a next glimmer, it brought the previous LEs to a safe end, but then the new drama soon started to gain momentum.
This is the first time I managed to get rid of it without a crutch-glimmer.
But now that I read your post again, it sounds more like the previous LE ended before this glimmer?
Its also very interesting that you discovered things about yourself once the focus on your LE was removed. I have no experience at all with ADHD. Maybe I should read up on it, more and more people tell me they have it and they are very different people.
Also very happy that your family life is good, and congratulations to your promotion! I‘m sure you more than deserved it.
Overall, I‘m very glad and relieved to read such good news about you.
A last nosy question, do you think you‘ll keep contact with your LO or would you prefer to round the thing up with a proper loving goodbye as happy ending, and let it go?
Or peter it out like L.E. described recently- a birthday card here, a holiday greeting there and after a few years it stops completely.. a subject I also think about sometimes since contact with my XLO is very reduced now. There are set meetings in fall and next year for professional reasons, but this kind of meeting is bound to stop soon. So, better to keep going or let go deliberately? I guess in my case it‘ll just happen almost by itself, time will tell.
In your case, there are no „official“ connections (in my case, families were meeting regularly etc, even my SO has some semi-professional connections with XLO and his SO etc), so it would be much „quieter“ if not easier to let it end, but do you want to?
Anyway, awaiting your more detailed update, if you feel like it, but no stress please.
I dawdle along here only for old times‘ sake and check the site regularly if not as often as I did.
Hi LiS,
Thanks for the update!
I‘m really happy for your LO. I gather that you helped her with her exams until the end, or did that stop at some point?
I hope she‘ll be happy at her new workplace, and I do hope fervently that she won’t come back in a year and everything starts all over again. I know you say you are over it, but who knows… those neuronal pathways are strong.
Would you say there’s no chance of rekindling now or in a year?
And I‘m really interested if your new LE had anything to do with being able to fade the other one out. Because I seemed to wired to hop from one to the next, even with the last one, there was a short strong glimmer episode with someone who fortunately wasn’t that interesting or interested in the end, it was just my brain looking for a replacement.
So, I’m looking forward to the next instalment;)
Hi Mila!
I like answering your questions, I think it’s easier actually than trying to figure out how to start and organize an account of my life for past six months.
So let’s see… regarding LO and her SO, I don’t see her leaving him or really even wanting to anymore. From what I’ve observed their relationship seems to have improved somewhat over the past year (or perhaps she stopped telling me the worst parts of it) – but it seems like some healing has taken place, their relationship doesn’t feel so hopelessly broken as before, they’re doing more things together as a family, they’re actually all attending some family therapy sessions together (which would have been unimaginable before), and it seems like things have gotten to a place now where most of the stuff he does and says just annoys/irritate her, in sort of the usual way that couples annoy/irritate each other, whereas in the past his words and actions either infuriated her or crushed her spirit, on a pretty regular basis. I think that she’s experienced a lot of healing and growth in the past few years and believes in herself more and maybe even loves herself more, and that’s likely made a difference in their relationship dynamics
And I’m really happy for her that her relationship is healing and her home doesn’t feel like a battlefield so much anymore. It really feels like she’s in a lot less pain now than she was when we first got close, and I’m very happy to see that.
I’m also so happy for her graduating school!! It’s such a big thing for her, both in terms of her career and her family income, but also her sense of who she is and what she can do. She feels really good about herself for not giving up and settling for staying in her current job forever, and she feels like she did a good thing by modeling perseverance to her daughters. She finished all of her classes and clinicals in May, and then had a month to study for this big all-day licensing exam that she was very skeptical she’d ever be able to pass. She felt pretty unsure if she’d passed when she told it, and then had to wait a few days to find out the results. When she did, she came to me at work and showed me the result on her phone and smiled, and I felt so happy, I jumped up and hugged her and we were both grinning from ear to ear – it was a really nice moment after everything. We talked on the phone for awhile after work that day and she told me all about the test and how good it felt to have passed, and how she had never actually believed she could make it until the moment she saw that result, and now she was still incredulous that she had done it. She told me that she could never even express how much she appreciated me, and thanked me for always believing in her and always being there for her. For the next few days I felt elated – I kept catching myself smiling and repeating to myself “she did it! She really did it!”
Of course, graduating also meant looking for a new job. Our system has a policy of not hiring RNs until they’ve had a year of experience, so we both knew there was no way around the fact that she’d be leaving. And I’d spent so much time over the last few years thinking about that moment and dreading it, but now I felt much more at peace, like I know I’ll be sad when she leaves, because I do still like her a lot and care about her a lot, but I’ve also had a feeling that it’s going to be ok, that I’ll be ok – in contrast to most of the past few years when the thought of her leaving felt like my world would be ending.
Similarly, I’d given a lot of thought over the years to what would happen after she left and if we’d ever see each other or even talk to each other again. I always had this recurring thing where I imagined her skipping out on seeing me at all on her last day, and then texting me that she appreciated me but needed to move on and hopefully I’d understand. And that little dysphoric daydream used to cause me so much pain every time I’d think of it – but this past month I’ve felt like whatever happens, I’m ok with it, if she wants to keep in touch I’d like that, but if she didn’t that will be ok too. In the past, if anything triggered me to think about never seeing her again, I’d spend days ruminating about it afterwards. But these past weeks there has been a number of times I’ve talked with her about her job applications and interviews and stuff, and afterwards I’d feel sad for a couple minutes about her leaving, but then I’d just start thinking about something else and maybe not think about her again for the rest of the day. Even when she told me that she’d been offered a job elsewhere and had put in her two weeks notice, I felt ok. Her last day is next Friday, less than a week away, and I’m ok. I’ve thought about her a few times during the day today, but without strong emotions and without rumination.
I always figured that whether or not we kept talking after she left would be entirely up to her, since how much we do or don’t talk has always been up to her. We chatted on the phone yesterday on her commute home, and she told me how sad she felt about leaving, how she’d tried to think of any possible way she could stay but finally had to accept that it just wasn’t possible (although she did bring up the idea of trying to return in a year or so when he meets the requirements for experience). She was talking about various coworkers that she would miss and how it was hard to start staying goodbyes, and then she told me very matter-of-factly that she was going to make sure that she and I talked at least once a week if not more, because it’s really important to her to maintain a real friendship with me and doesn’t want to risk having it just fade away (the Christmas and birthday thing) so she wants to be really intentional about making sure not to let that happen with me. And hearing that made me happy, and I like the idea of us having a chat every Thursday at lunch or something – but if it doesn’t end up happening like that, then again I still know I’ll be ok.
Anyway, this is far too long of a post already and I haven’t even answered all of your questions! I did write a little about adhd at the end of a post I did earlier today on the latest blog, and I’ll write more on that later, and also write more about new LO-lite, because that’s been interesting to start experiencing feelings of limerence while actually knowing exactly what’s going on and being able to analyze what’s happening and why, and then more consciously make choices about what I will or won’t do. But that’ll be another time… have a great day, and we’ll talk soon!
I posted above about a disturbing dream that affected my feelings about LO.
Well, I found the cure for that–LO! I spent some time with him yesterday, and it was disappointing, to say the least. I was describing a financial matter, and he burst out laughing. I asked him what was funny, and he either couldn’t or wouldn’t tell me. LO is not a big smiler/laugher, so this was unusual.
Bizarrely, he continued laughing for what seemed like several minutes. I am still in the dark as to what was so damn funny. I was telling a serious story. I have never seen him laugh so long or so hard.
He finally said that the laughter was probably a release of tension for all the strain he’s been under. I guess I can accept that, but it still didn’t feel good.
I felt as though I was being laughed at, and nobody likes that.
I realize I deliberately put myself in harm’s way in order to lessen the limerence.
I still think I’m doing the right thing, because LO continues to disappoint me.
The man is a veritable smorgasbord of bad traits.
ND,
If you think that you’re doing the right thing, how are you evaluating that presumption?
– Are the feelings less intense?
– Are the interactions less frequent?
– Are the durations of the engagements shorter in duration?
There was a great Harvard Business Review article in the 90s, “Successful Change Programs Begin With Results.” The gist was if you can’t somehow quantify it, you’re probably in the Activity Centered Fallacy (ACF).
ACF is when you believe that if you do enough of right things, good results will eventually materialize.
Even if indicators are indirect, you can still quantify something. Intensity can be reflected by changes in the time it takes to fall asleep, how many nights you dream about them, how many antacid you take after seeing them.
Quantifying things makes it easier to make adjustments. If you currently have coffee weekly, move it every other week, then monthly and so on. It’s like titrating down medication doses. I also liken it to the Birthday and Christmas card phase of a dead relationship. After the breakup, you might think that you’re still friends and send cards for a time until at some point, you don’t.
To L.E.
Thank you for your comments. The interactions are not less frequent and the durations are not shorter, but the feelings ARE less intense.
I find the more time I spend with LO, the less desirable he becomes. So my slow, painful project is bearing fruit.
LO made a couple of comments yesterday that indicated that he remembers little, if anything, of what I tell him. This is a powerful turn-off for me. I believe you should remember some basic facts about people who are your friends. LO remembers next to nothing, which angers me and works in my favor long-term.
I like that post, L.E.
Activity centered fallacy! I‘m intrigued.
Mila,
Sadly, you used to be able to find the article free online but the HBR locked it down. If your local library has a subscription to the HBR, they could get it for you.
It’s worth the read.
Hello Norma
Do you think his was laughing at your finances? You have said he is well off.
I had a friend ask me for my LO’s good qualities, but leave out looks. I had no problem naming about a dozen and a half things I love and admire about her, none of which were about her appearance. I could only think or 1 or 2 negative things… and I am not sure they are actually negatives.
I saw that you think he is very physically attractive.
Can you name some things about him that you like?
( ps – are you sure his a gay? )
I hope your weekend is going peacefully.
To NTL:
Yes, I am 100% sure that LO is gay. He is openly gay, and I could tell just by looking at him, before I even knew his name. He has a Big Gay House full of antiques and all sorts of fussy stuff. He has told me many stories about his former partners, and they have all been men, except for a girlfriend he had for ten years when he was much younger.
LO is brilliant, very sophisticated, and an excellent communicator. He has a fabulous vocabulary, and I am a sucker for words. I am laughing to myself because our President has said, “I have the best words.” The President DOES NOT have “the best words,” but LO does. I read a lot and a good vocabulary means a lot to me.
LO loves animals and is too soft-hearted to even kill bugs.
I tease him and he turns bright red very easily. I find it charming.
He is very candid about his shortcomings, and I find that attractive, also. He is very well-to-do but has never made me feel inferior in a financial sense.
He looks like Anderson Cooper and has a full head of gray hair. He is 6 foot 3 and towers over me, which is why I call him my Big Gay Giraffe.
At our age, it is a miracle to find a man who is slender and still has all his hair. His legs are better than mine.
I don’t know if he was laughing at my finances–it sure seemed like he was. I took out a reverse mortgage about four years ago. It’s quite dull–not very funny–but he couldn’t stop laughing. I am sensitive about it, because it brings back memories of my divorce, several alimony battles, and I happened to also get breast cancer at the same time.
One of the things LO said to me yesterday was, “I didn’t know you got alimony,” despite the fact that I have told him MANY alimony horror stories about my ex husband and the scorched-earth divorce he filed against me.
LO appears to remember almost nothing that I tell him. This is a huge black mark against him, which helps me to become disillusioned.
Thank you for asking about me.
I am sitting by myself at the over-70 table because nobody else wants to talk about osteoporosis or bone scans.
I just had a bone scan Wednesday and it appears I have lost an inch due to age and osteoporosis. I am now only 5 foot 2. LO towers over me at 6 foot 3 like a Big Gay Giraffe.
Perhaps Marcia and MJ will invite me to sit with them if I promise not to talk about Prolia.
ND,
I have osteopenia, I’m into bone scans! I’m on Vitamin D, calcium, and annual Reclast infusions. My naturopath also put me on boron.
New pickup line: “Hey, doll, wanna come to my place and check out my latest Dexa scan results?’
Take care of yourself!
To L.E.:
I would totally fall for that line.
ND
Marcia and I have been talking a lot lately about aging. We’re here if you need us. Even though we’re probably not ready for daily doses of Prolia yet.
Won’t be too long though, lol.. 😂
Btw, Big Gay Giraffe was freakin hilarious. 🦒 🤣
To MJ:
A minor correction. Prolia is a shot that you get twice a year.
Reclast is an infusion that you get once a year. I used to get Reclast but my doctor switched me to Prolia.
There are many oral meds for osteoporosis but I found they had horrible side effects. Some of them you take once a week, some are once a month.
I like the Prolia, because there are no side effects, and it seems to be reversing the osteoporosis a little bit. I figure if it doesn’t get any worse, I will be fine.
I remember years ago, one of my aunts broke her hip, became bedridden, and died shortly thereafter. Thankfully treatment has improved by leaps and bounds.
I am totally ambulatory, fairly limber, and there is no pain with osteoporosis. So while I have pain from other issues, the osteoporosis is not one of those.
I’ll go back to my table now.
You and LE can sit at a table together if you want to talk about health-related topics.
Those topics are banned at the table where MJ and I will be sitting. (And NO talk about LOs!) We’ll be cruising for new, younger prospects and living in denial that we’re not young. Now, if those activities interest you … yes, you can join us. 🙂
To Marcia:
I would LOVE to join you. Thank you for inviting me. I was afraid you’d think I was too old. I will try to hold up my end of the conversation.
Marcia,
Thanks for the invite but I think I’ll just sit in the corner sipping my double Geritol and soda…
To L.E.:
I would like to join you in the corner. Perhaps I can alternate?
LE:
I didn’t invite you. I invited Norma. 🙂
Honestly, the tables will probably eventually break down by gender. They’ll be a chicks’ table and a dudes’ table.
Norma,
“I would like to join you in the corner. Perhaps I can alternate?”
Spoken like a true limerent. Playing all options and all sends of the fence. 🙂
To Marcia:
Not necessarily playing all options.
It’s just that I am equally fond of all of you and I don’t want anyone to be left out.
Norma Desmond,
“It’s just that I am equally fond of all of you ”
You don’t ever tell a limerent that you like them the same as everyone else. 🙂
“and I don’t want anyone to be left out.”
No one will be left out. Anyone can sit wherever they want to. I am not the Seat Police. 🙂
Plus, I’m not the one organizing any of this. I’m just showing up. 🙂
Marcia
“I didn’t invite you. I invited Norma. 🙂”
Daaamn, why you gotta be so mean to LE like that? You literally just told Norma up there she could sit with LE and talk health talk. Perhaps there’s some health information we (as in YOU and I) could use since we’re not getting any younger. Let them sit with us. And be cordial please. 😆
“MJ and I will be sitting. (And NO talk about LOs!) We’ll be cruising for new, younger prospects and living in denial that we’re not young.”
Sounds about right, but if things don’t work out, (and when do they ever for me?) does that mean I can’t share all my favorite Sabrina videos with you and talk about them?
MJ,
“Daaamn, why you gotta be so mean to LE like that? ”
Stay in your own lane. LE knows our dynamic. Of all posters on here, he does not need you to help him. 🙂
“You literally just told Norma up there she could sit with LE and talk health talk. ”
Yeah, at their own table. Not ours.
“Perhaps there’s some health information we (as in YOU and I) could use since we’re not getting any younger. Let them sit with us. ”
No can do. I have literally never read up on health issues I may experience in the future. I just deal with them as they come. I prefer to be ignorant.
“does that mean I can’t share all my favorite Sabrina videos with you and talk about them?”
Oh, no. Because there’s no equivalent current male pop star I can torture you with. They’re all so … bland and harmless.
MJ:
Wait a minute! I stand corrected! We can watch Bad Bunny videos. Someone I know who speaks Spanish said his lyrics are really raunchy.
That’s what we’ll do. We’ll watch his videos and put the lyrics through Google translator. Good times, happy times. 🙂
Since Marcia didn’t invite me to sit at the table with the group, I’m firing her as co-host of the next Limmy Awards ceremony!
And, no Marcia, you needn’t point out that you never actually were a co-hostess at the Limmy Awards.
LE,
“I’m firing her as co-host of the next Limmy Awards ceremony!”
I don’t remember being asked to be a co-host. I don’t want to be a co-host. I don’t want to go to the ceremony. I don’t care about awards. I just want to go the after party and see what everybody looks like. 🙂
Just tell me what bar to go to.
Marcia,
DrL has yet to approve plans for the ceremony so as of now, no actual Limmy, no swag, no venue…nada, zip.
Rumor has it that the Limmys, in 100% plastic with a place for your self-printed label, are being held in a Hong Kong warehouse pending release by the Chinese government. It appears that when it was filled out, the export form read “Limeys” not “Limmys” and they were labeled as “symbols of decadent Western Imperialism” and blocked from shipment. Their release depends on finding the appropriate officials to bribe.
LE,
I mean … do we really want to give out awards for limerence? Is that something to celebrate? Limerence is hardly a badge of honor. 🙂
Just pick some big city in the U.S. Find a decent-sized bar. Pick a date and time and those who can show up … will.
We’re making this 87 times harder than it has to be. Because we’re limerents. 🙂
To L.E.:
I for one am looking forward to the Limmy Awards and see nothing wrong with this. Lemons, lemonade and so forth.
Please carry on with your plans for the ceremony.
A little self-mockery never hurts.
I consider it an honor to be nominated. I think I am nominated for my screen name, but I think Miss Snow will win for “Morticia, the Androgynous Knucklehead,” which has a real ring to it.
I’m only the androgynous knucklehead…
Do we have an award for “the Chameleon Egghead” 😇 ?
In order to get LO, a limerent can be a shapeshifter, who is the best? 😽
“Just pick some big city in the U.S. Find a decent-sized bar. Pick a date and time and those who can show up … will.”
Marcia
I nominate Chicago as the host city. It’s a centralized location with 2 major airports and plenty of cool bars. Plus if we have it on the weekend, I won’t have to miss any work. 😁
“Stay in your own lane.”
Marcia
Omg, I think I just had a LF flashback. 🤯
You can’t post stuff like that. You’re triggering my limerent tendencies and I’m sensitive. Remember no means yes. Especially to a limerent.. 😆
Do it again and next time I’m gonna come find you and beat you with a rubber hose. 🤣
“That’s what we’ll do. We’ll watch his videos and put the lyrics through Google translator. Good times, happy times. 🙂”
I’ll allow this on one condition. Any video we watch must have sexy latinas in it. So I can gawk at, lust and drool over them. I’m not interested in watching dudes at the swinging meat market. What do I look like? A big gay Giraffe? 🦒😆
MJ,
“I nominate Chicago as the host city. It’s a centralized location with 2 major airports and plenty of cool bars. Plus if we have it on the weekend, I won’t have to miss any work. ”
Yes, let’s pick MJ’s city so he’s not inconvenienced. 🙂
Actually, I don’t mind Chicago but we have to do it now because I am not dealing with your bad weather. What do we have? About the next month when it’s actually nice? 🙂
“I think I just had a LF flashback. 🤯”
Boundaries, my friend. You need to get them. She said so, too. That’s a lesson for you. Not that you’ll … um … get it. 🙂
“You can’t post stuff like that. You’re triggering my limerent tendencies and I’m sensitive. Remember no means yes. Especially to a limerent.. 😆”
You have so many triggers, I don’t enough time to keep track of them and do anything else. 🙂
“I’ll allow this on one condition. Any video we watch must have sexy latinas in it. ”
I hate when hot men put chicks in their videos. I don’t want to look at that. They’re killing the fantasy. I don’t look at the woman as a substitute for myself but as a block to the hot man. 🙂
“Yes, let’s pick MJ’s city so he’s not inconvenienced.”
Marcia
Yes, please because it’s about me. All about me. Always. I’m selfish. You’re just figuring this out now? 😆
“Actually, I don’t mind Chicago but we have to do it now because I am not dealing with your bad weather. What do we have? About the next month when it’s actually nice? 🙂”
August and September are usually warm, sometimes too warm. October varies. Usually around Thanksgiving has been the norm lately when the better weather disappears. You can handle it.
“That’s a lesson for you. Not that you’ll … um … get it. 🙂”
Nope, I don’t. I’m stubborn. Thats why I keep you around. To keep me in line. And don’t go thinking otherwise.
“I hate when hot men put chicks in their videos. I don’t want to look at that. They’re killing the fantasy. I don’t look at the woman as a substitute for myself but as a block to the hot man. 🙂”
Now you know how I feel about Bad Bunny in general but I’m definitely ok with half naked latina hotties filling up the screen in those vids. I don’t need to see the swinging sausage fest. The ladies can block dude all day long. 😁
MJ,
“I’m selfish. You’re just figuring this out now? 😆”
You’re a man, aren’t you? 😉
“August and September are usually warm, sometimes too warm. October varies. Usually around Thanksgiving has been the norm lately when the better weather disappears. You can handle it.”
I can’t and I don’t want to. 🙂
“Thats why I keep you around. To keep me in line. ”
In all seriousness, all kidding aside, in real life, I have no interest in keeping a grown man in line. Being put in that role would turn me off.
“Now you know how I feel about Bad Bunny”
I could not even name one of his songs … but no woman is paying him to sing. 🙂
As I wrote to LE, the whole limerence event will probably segregate based on gender. The male limerents will want to ramble on about the perfection of their LOs (or dissect every little thing their LOs did … She crossed the parking lot! What does it mean?… :)) … and, let’s be real, that’s a real snorefest. The female lims will probably leave and hit up a male revue. I have to go now. Have to go to the bank and get some dollar bills! 🙂
Dear Comrade LaR,
Just to be clear, I’m a “Meowist”, not “Maoist”.
Thanks for clearing up the details about your experiences with limerence and relationships. A lot of what you said rings true for me as well, particularly “I was a ‘late to the races’ person in my confidence with women and in dating and sex.” The key word here is “confidence”, especially with regard to one’s own attractiveness. As we have seen in recent posts, this seems to be a really common thread here, and I had super low confidence in my twenties, which increased in small steps over the next couple of decades. The sense of a lost youth, and maybe even a reincarnated version of a lost LO, feed my present limerent episode. Of course, a lot of this is irrational.
Shifting to my cataclysm on Friday …
I had a work situation that required me to be onsite for the first time in over three months. Fortunately, I got most of the work issues resolved, and had many other meaningful discussions with colleagues as well. Luckily, all of these discussions were in different rooms or buildings than my normal one, and I was able to avoid being distracted by my young friend/colleague (note that we do/did not directly work with each other). As it was nearing closing time, I decided to meet her in her workspace, but only after first briefly meeting with others in the same room.
She was extremely enthusiastic, and she asked me detailed questions about my summer experiences and plans, and talked about hers as well. In fact, her enthusiasm level almost rivalled that of our “reunion” about twelve months ago, the one that supercharged my limerence and first brought me onto this site. We shared photographs of our hobbies and travel, and she took a particularly keen interest in one of my relatively obscure hobbies, telling me that she intended to get more information about it online. Rather perplexingly, she said, more than once, that she didn’t have to leave just yet, that she could stay longer – effectively trying to prolong the conversation that I never wanted to end anyway. If my lizard brain (or cat brain) had taken over, the conversation would have gone on forever. Finally, as I was getting ready to leave, she offered me some exotic candy that a colleague (coincidentally, my collaborator!!!) had brought in from an international trip. And as if that wasn’t enough, she told me that another colleague had brought in a different type of exotic candy, which I must also sample. So, she took me to this essentially vacant “hidden” room where this candy bowl was located. I told her no, I’ll leave it for another day – I did not want to become too greedy, the resident candy thief. I also wondered (quietly, of course!) whether the candy had metaphorical meaning for me. All in all, I emerged feeling quite bewildered, wondering what the h*** is happening, where am I going with this? The principle of LC was definitely flouted in spirit, and the goal of achieving emotional distancing was completely reversed. However, I’d like to emphasize that I did not cross any “hard” boundaries, either in conversation or behavior. But I definitely flouted the spirit of our (LaR’s and CatCyclist’s) prior discussion on how to handle my upcoming exit from this job, how to write my goodbye note, and what happens thereafter.
And you wonder why I thought why she had a crush also? To me, it is just Occam’s razor. You may use different logic, and indeed you might be right, but I end up falling back to that unshakable gut feeling, for she keeps providing me with so much new ammunition in every other meeting!
In our more serious discussions, she told me that she was getting started with applying for a PhD, and was in discussions with some of the top researchers in her field. I may have mentioned before on LwL that she is a remarkable talent, with a “shoot for the stars” mentality; those initial impressions have now become, if anything, even stronger. And she is also humble, vivacious, and funny – and most importantly, likes me! Will that combination of traits ever exist again in a single human being? I don’t think so!
I’d like to put in perspective the strange evolution of this limerent episode. When I met her about three years ago when she was still an intern, I was immediately struck by how she singled me out for questions and her boundless enthusiasm. A bond soon formed between us, and soon afterwards, a glimmer as well. The last part really scared me, for all the obvious reasons – the power differential, the age difference, my marriage status – and I started to “ride the brakes”, so to speak. The more I got to know her, the more I realized that she was a remarkably interesting person – a true Renaissance girl – and that just fed my desire to get to know her better. However, “riding the brakes” combined later with long periods of NC and LC, greatly slowed down the process of getting to know her better. So, today I am still fighting two contradictory goals. The only workable compromise, one that I won’t end up violating, is to return to very low contact (a meeting or communication every few months or so) until I leave my job, and then to even lower contact (maybe once in a long time – a year, a decade?) I find that without looming in-person contact, the hold of limerence does weaken to a manageable level, even if it doesn’t disappear completely.
By the way, I have not yet told her of my intention to leave this job. However, considering that she knows my collaborator (they often share a workspace), it is only a matter of time until she finds out.
Thanks for reading, and as always, I will appreciate anybody else’s replies as well!
Comrade,
You got away with that pun by a whisker. It wasn’t a paw performance.
How are you feeling now after that experience with your young colleague? (see, I didn’t say the banned phrase…). I hope the after-the-event confusion and crash aren’t too bad, as I know they can be.
First up, no judgement here about that you decided to speak to her and let the conversation run on (OK, the candy bit does scream amber lights). As DrL himself has said, limerence is a bastard. In the face of that temptation and with the boundaries having been kept up for so long, I would have found it tough not to crack in that situation.
So don’t let this negate all the good work you have done. But, if I speak frankly, I could really hear your limerence talking in how you described her in your post. You could have been LaR circa 2024 there, eulogising about all that was great about his LO! (By the way – this is not to question any of the truth of what you said about her being a special talent – I believe what you say, just I can detect your limerence radar picking out all that’s good in her!).
It is obvious by events you describe that she likes you. You can lay that worry to rest in your mind, and leave any past experiences that might skew that judgement in the past, where thy belong. If you can, then an explanation that this all equals ‘likes’ rather than ‘LIKES’ is the more helpful one. At risk of banging the jungle drums, women can show a lot of friendliness when they ‘like’ someone, and it is easy to misconstrue. I’m not there, so I don’t know – I am just walking you through processes that helped me reduce my own ruminations.
The question now, and in a few days, a week’s and a month’s time, would be – very honestly, how does if feel in the aftermath? Does it derail your recovery, or are you stronger now so you can ride it out easier than the catcyclaclysm of a year ago?
Try and remain focused on the ending you committed to. This might feel trickier now? But I think it is worth refocusing on your motivations for the professional ending you wanted to bring it to. Rhetorical questions – what did you want that to achieve for you, and what different paths do alternative endings lead you down? Try and be honest with yourself about the effects of leaving hope open, even of an annual euphoric contact with her.
Keep thrashing it out with me if you want – even if it goes around in circles a bit (totally normal, I don’t mind). Though at risk of repeating yourself, I don’t think my LE management is any kind of role model. There are bits now (contact levels) where my choices are very limited, but I still don’t always make good ones. I also let myself get deep in the weeds and I still only have it at a level where I can keep it pushed below the surface – not gone.
Again, I hope the last few days have been OK 🤞
Hi LaR,
I don’t think I’m going to pounce on that pun.
On the first day, I was just feeling bewildered, trying to make sense of what just happened. On the second and third days, I started a grieving process, probably aggravated by the fact that my wife is on travel this week, and as I’m suddenly confronted by loneliness, having noone to talk to, on this or any other matter. Not that I’d talk about it with my wife, but having a home life, and working on my “real” relationship, would leave less room for rumination and depression to take hold. Today, and especially after reading your reply, I feel not so much a lifting of the grief as it slowly morphing into something else — the bittersweet realization of something beautiful that happened that is inevitably coming to an end. That beautiful something was not an affair, but a highly improbable and rewarding (hopefully mutual), friendship. I have no doubt that my feelings — and plans for going forward — are going to take many twists and turns, along with some reversals and bargaining, and a lot of fighting with myself.
As far as my limerence being on display, that was somewhat intentional — I just wanted to display my true, still substantially limerent self — as opposed to a false, fully recovered front.
I don’t think Friday’s events will doom the recovery, but may add one more temporary hurdle. I do feel stronger now than a year ago, but perhaps weaker than the newly found strength I was experiencing a couple of months ago.
Your questions on “the ending you committed to” are going to be the most difficult for me to answer — not to you, but to myself. In fact, I’m still trying to figure out what my commitments and my goals are; there’s a personal as well as professional aspect to this. I’m sure I’ll have more to say on this in the coming weeks. I’d also like to talk about the nature of friendship (not in an abstract, global sense, but how it applies here) and the need for validation.
I truly appreciate all of your help in keeping me straight, especially all of your non-judgemental advice. Thank you so much, LaR. I cannot say how much all of your support means to me.
Meowist,
Everything you’ve said there makes total sense and your trajectory since that encounter sounds much as expected. I hope once your wife is home, you can redirect some of your energy purposefully.
I won’t write too much more today other than to say I am happy to kick stuff around with you about goal setting, friendship, etc. The latter has been a favourite topic of mine on LwL over the years (sigh) I’ve spent trying to navigate my LE. Marcia might start throwing popcorn at me from another table of the coffeehouse if I start again on saying my LO is my ‘friend’ 😂. But more seriously, go for it if and when you have angles like that to add, and we can explore more.
Hope the rest of this week has been / is a calmer ride.
Hi LaR,
It turns out that this week my “ride”, as you say, turned out to be a little bit rougher than I had portrayed in my earlier post. Some of it was indeed grief, and felt it in a corporal sense — my whole body in pain and on the verge of tears, but trying desperately to suppress them.
It was only when my wife returned yesterday that I experienced a quick turnaround in mood. I realized how much I missed her when she was gone, how her mere presence lightens the load without having to actually talk about anything. About how her generally optimistic nature is contagious, how it acts as a counter to my frequently pessimistic nature. She also helped me, in effect, to shift my focus to her, where it should be.
Another thing that surprised and distressed me about this whole (hopefully minor) relapse was that I had made a goal for myself at the beginning of the year to recover from this limerent episode at the three year mark (which passed last month), yet I experienced another setback. This was especially so because in April, when I had my previous encounter with my young lady friend, I had successfully avoided getting drawn in too deeply, and I was very confident about guiding my limerence into a gradual, controlled transition into a friendship. From this setback, I have learned that total recovery is going to take longer, maybe much longer, than the over-optimistic timelines I had set for myself at the beginning of the year, and that I’ll have to especially careful about jumping back into the friendship.
Interestingly, my young lady friend (YLF?), had asked me, at the beginning of the year, what my New Year’s resolutions were; I never answered.
BTW, I’d like to know what techniques you have used to “only have it at a level where I can keep it pushed below the surface”; in particular, what has and hasn’t worked. And also, how to make a friendship work.
Wish you a great weekend too.
Hi CatCyclist,
“Some of it was indeed grief, and felt it in a corporal sense — my whole body in pain and on the verge of tears, but trying desperately to suppress them.”
Oh that’s horrible. Hope you have passed the worst now. I remember moments like that. The higher the euphoric high, the more of a low that leaves in the post.
I’m here all week anytime you want cheering up 😂 Excuse my dark humour there. Occasionally I found dark humour helpful.
“It was only when my wife returned yesterday that I experienced a quick turnaround in mood.”
I have a question. If you are feeling that sad (in the corporeal sense), how do you try and manage that in front of your wife? I had times when I just couldn’t contain it, and had to make up other excuses for my mental state. I used to dread SO asking “are you OK?” when limerence pain was heightened – it happened a handful of times.
“I realized how much I missed her when she was gone, how her mere presence lightens the load without having to actually talk about anything. About how her generally optimistic nature is contagious”
Those are really nice things to say about your wife, and are things to really hold onto and build on.
“I had made a goal for myself at the beginning of the year to recover from this limerent episode at the three year mark (which passed last month), yet I experienced another setback.”
I think it is hard to telegraph/plan an LE like that. They are stubborn so and so’s.
“I’d like to know what techniques you have used to “only have it at a level where I can keep it pushed below the surface”; in particular, what has and hasn’t worked.”
Nothing worked until I killed hope inside myself (and if the attraction was mutual, in LO too). Doing that involved an honest conversation about why I needed to pull back (she agreed) and then 3 months or so of hard pulling back. It was a depressing time, to be truthful – it was like the tiredness of years caught up with me.
After that it was like a fog lifted, and I could start to relate to her in a less cold way but also nothing that got too ‘hot’ in my head. She stopped actions that played on my attraction at that stage and became very respectful of my relationship with my SO – and has been ever since.
The “pushed below the surface” bit might have something to do with me feeling increasingly secure about the friendship / that she’s not going anywhere. That was not true earlier in the LE when I questioned every day whether I would do / had done anything to ‘blow the friendship’. In the end, I got enough exposure and watched her interaction patterns enough times that I could almost predict what would happen next. In DrL’s terms, I removed two of the big roots: Hope and Uncertainty. I am still attracted, but not limerent any more.
“And also, how to make a friendship work.”
We limmies do a lot of bargaining with the term ‘friendship’, don’t we? I suppose what I have now is the best dynamic I can manage given the need to work closely together. But can it ever truly be a full ‘friendship’ while she is in the dark over how long I have held a (very bright) candle for her?! I still don’t think I have reached a resting state with her that can last indefinitely.
The other thing is that I had known her for a decade (as a coworker, then a friend) before my LE began. There were very established templates of how we used to relate to each other, to move back towards. We have a couple of mutual interests which are things we can do socially in a group. I don’t want this to sound boastful, but I need to say it to explain – we have very high levels of trust in each other, have advocated for each other, and can complete each other’s sentences often. There is, then, this massive seam of history that means we have been able to hold some sort of ‘friendship’ despite all the complications that have got in the way.
Hope the weekend is proving kind. It is still stupidly hot and not a drop of rain for weeks on my side of the pond.
Hi LaR,
Thanks again for your support. And no apologies needed for dark humor. I’ve done much worse – I made a suicide joke about a member with whom my wife’s family had a complicated relationship, to which my wife objected, but it wasn’t even clear if it was a serious objection!
In my earlier post, I either overstated the depth of my grief, or experienced an unusually rapid turnaround since then. I had just read your reply last night, but didn’t have time to write my response – my wife and I were about to leave to go out to a restaurant. Whiie there, I asked her whether she’d noticed a difference in my mood over the past week, to which she replied, “how would I know, I’ve been away”. That explains the first part – I experienced the lowest of my mood when she was away. Then I revised my question to be about the past two days (since her return), and she said that she didn’t notice anything unusual, just my occasional distraction. For what it’s worth, that’s a perennial (and usually valid) complaint of hers, going back to the greater part of our marriage. Then she volunteered, unsolicited, that I had been much more attentive to her and generally happier over the past two years than before, which she attributes to the eighteen months of therapy that I concluded in January. I would add that the support I’ve received here on LwL has contributed immensely as well – although I didn’t mention that part to her!
So, how do I explain these obvious inconsistencies? I have experienced both poles, and everything in between – from grief/sadness to euphoria/happiness – with the overall trend being towards less grief and sadness over time, with intermittent reversals, as you are well too aware of. The most extreme euphoria-to-grief cycle was around this time last year, when the grief, which lasted a couple of weeks, was indeed noticeable to my wife – and for which, like you, I could not offer a good explanation. This time, the grief was much briefer, and I felt it most when my wife was away for travel, again highlighting how much I rely on her for (unspoken) support.
I am genuinely impressed that you had that hard conversation, and were able to turn things around after “3 months or so of hard pulling back”. All in all, I think you have done an excellent job in navigating your situation, and greatly respect the choices you have made.
In contrast to your situation, almost the entirety of our relationship has been VERY low contact, and currently we have contact only every three months or less frequently. In fact, there was a period in which I had thrown away all of her contact information and emails, in order to “snuff out” the limerence. As you can see, that did not work. As to having that “hard conversation”, I believe it would be greatly inadvisable with my young lady friend (YLE) – she should not have to carry that load.
Hey LaR, I just got interrupted, but will send you part 2 as soon as I am able.
Hi LaR,
Picking up on where I dropped the conversation.
I’ve been thinking a lot about the advisability/futility of attempting a friendship with LO. The overwhelming consensus is against it, at least on the websites, including here. Yet, many people attempt it nonetheless.
One of the few situations where a friendship might be possible, at least after the limerence has cooled down, is in which there was friendship before the start of the LE, such as yours. I found a website which discusses in some depth such a situation:
https://www.unfoldinglimerence.com/blog/limerence-for-a-friend
Many of the recommended ideas and strategies are very similar to your! However, am doubtful that such conditions really exist in my situation. This makes me kind of sad. Therefore, I’ll probably have to find other rationalizations. 😉 Or at the least, try a highly scaled down version.
Sir 🚴of the 😺,
Picking up on a few points from your last two messages…
Your wife noticing that you’re happier and more attentive – a definite plus! And if therapy and LwL helped you get into that spot, then the whole experience definitely hasn’t been for nothing. The general uptick in mood being as a result of fewer of the ‘downs’ of limerence is also good. What you want eventually is neither the euphoria nor the grief – a kind of ‘casual indifference’ where your mood is not affected by anything connected to LE/LO. That only comes with time .
I was reading something from another ‘veteran’ poster on this site, Lost in Space, recently and he said he suddenly realised he hadn’t thought of his former LO for days on end. I have not reached that space yet, but I can go hours at a time without her cropping up in my mind if we have no interactions. For context, I think at the worst it was basically every minute of every day – it was at this point I couldn’t hide it from SO (and had to make excuses). And it was that piece of knowledge, and its potential consequences, that put me on the train towards the ‘need to pull back’ chat with LO.
I agree with you that your YLF should not have to bear the burden of you explaining anything to her. I would be firmly in the ‘never disclose’ camp for you. I was for myself too (also ‘am’, but there is no danger of it now), but my resolve with it took some bashings.
Thank you for the link to the article – it was informative and I certainly recognised some of myself and my courses of action in it. It validates some of how I’ve handled it, and it isn’t without hope that friends can come out of an LE with the damage limited.
The thing is, I think you *know really* that attempting a friendship in your situation is pretty futile. If you think that bargaining with yourself around it is inevitable, then questions worth asking and being very honest with yourself about would include – how do you think you can keep the friendship *and* get rid of the limerence – what does that actually look/feel like?; ihow might such a ‘friendship’ even look, going forward, in the face of the barriers that exist to it? What does she ‘stand for’? You don’t need to go over that again for my benefit if you don’t want to, as I understand already that she stands for a lot more in your mind besides what we can see on the surface. But this is the crux of limerence really, isn’t it? Our mind projects ‘our stuff’ onto another person, and we gain a rose-tinted vision of them.
I’ll give you a couple of examples about myself. My LO is a spontaneous, ‘free’ person (a ‘P’ in the MBTI categories if that interests you). Associating with her allowed me to feel and act much freer for a time, until the rumination bit of limerence kicked in. But that’s not really a reflection on her spontaneity – it is a reflection of the fact I was living in quite a rigid way prior to the LE, and needed to change that for myself – she was a vehicle. And in my future, I don’t only want to feel freer when associating with LO – I need to also ask myself ‘How else can I create more freedom in my real life?’. Or, another attractive thing about my LO is that she is frank and doesn’t hold back with expressing opinions, and helped me become bolder at expressing and trusting mine. Rinse and repeat the cycle above, to end with my desire to create the space myself, to feel freer to express my opinions.
I kind of knew I was more on the road to recovery when her over-opinionation and her lack of ability to make plans and stick to them started to annoy me more!
Hello Sir!
My frustration with not being able to not think about “LO for days on end” (or at least hours) is that I’ve already been there before, and multiple times. The first time was a few months after my retirement just over two years ago, when I had started therapy but not yet joined LwL. By the time New Year’s came, I felt comfortable enough in my progress that I was ready to send a short, innocuous greeting to YLF. What I got was a surprisingly enthusiastic and detailed reply, which led to a quick back-and-forth, which in turn ended as abruptly as it started. Thus, having been ghosted, I had a small ripple in my recovery, but within a couple of months, I had enough things going on in my life that I thought, OK, she’s given me her answer, and I’m OK with probably never hearing from her again. A few months, in July (last year), our much discussed “reunion” event occurred, where I experienced a brief euphoria followed by a couple of months of grief, rumination, and intrusive thoughts. I started posting on LwL, and had a zig-zag recovery over the period of several months. By this January, aided by a couple of outside events, I was able to re-frame my thoughts to such a degree that I was able to view YLF in a different light – no longer as an LO, but a less idealized view. Despite a couple of minor ripples since then, for the most part, I could go without having intrusive thoughts about her for substantial periods of time. That relative equanimity, as you know, suffered a substantial reversal nearly two weeks ago.
By the way, that event was not a true euphoria event, at least not in the way that the “reunion” event last year was. Instead, I thought the experience was transformative in a fashion, in that our relationship was becoming “normalized” – that perhaps it was, finally, on its way to becoming a true friendship, which manifest itself in YLF finally acting more like her true self, allowing her vivacious and humor to come across, without being over the top (OK, maybe a little over the top). I felt that our proto friendship was finally maturing into a real one. Yet I was still rather uncomfortable in this apparent transition – after all, hadn’t you and I jointly come to the essentially opposite conclusion – that is to say, the goal is to transition the friendship to more of an austere, professional relationship, in effect, a less warm one?
I have been reading a lot about the conditions necessary for friendships to form. One of them is that they generally require a lot of one-on-one contact, whether at work or elsewhere. The number most frequently quoted is a minimum of 200 hours of actual one-on-one contact over a period of several months or years.
So how does this compare to the development of my “friendship” with YLF? Well, when I first reached out to her via email six months after my retirement, and got a surprisingly enthusiastic response, we had had prior in person contact a TOTAL of about one to two hours – perhaps a dozen or so short conversations. Remember, I was “riding the brakes” the entire time she was an intern, being very mindful of things getting out of control. In the little over a year since her return as a full-time employee (and my return as a part-time one), we have had a total of FOUR substantial in person interactions, which have been much longer than the earlier ones, but still amounting to a TOTAL of four to six hours. Another way in which these conversations have differed from my more “normal” friendships is the sheer intensity and focus of the conversations, the experience of being treated like a VIP. For example, she remembers obscure things I said two years ago! You can see that if ours is indeed a true friendship, it has followed a rather atypical trajectory!
So, these are my thoughts for today. In the coming days, I will attempt to answer your questions in the last three paragraphs – which were the far more difficult ones.
Thanks for keeping me vigilant!
Hi CatCyclist,
I’ll wait for the rest of your answer (and don’t feel rushed) before I get into too much depth on the main topic, but your thoughts on friendship are an interesting aside.
In the last decade, I have probably gained only a couple of true friends (I am not counting SO’s friends, as I gained them by association). I’ve gained lots of acquaintances but only 2 or 3 who are friends in the sense that if I was in real need, I’d feel comfortable to call on them and ask for help.
Now I do have a fair stock of such friends I made historically, but my point is I haven’t added many to them in a long while. I ask myself why – I can be a little guarded with new people, but I am quite pro-social most of the time.
I think there are three factors here – one, I only have so much space and energy for friends, and I’d rather invest that in a smaller number of strong friendships than a larger number of acquaintanships. Two, the LE and the way it diverted my headspace and energy has been a factor. And three is what your research said – that onboarding even one new friend takes a lot of time and effort.
I say all this with what I think is a high bar for when I would see someone as a friend, as opposed to, say, a colleague or acquaintance.
However, to buck the trend, I recently spent time outside work for the first time with a colleague. He and I had chatted only a little at work but discovered some shared interests. We spent time together around one of those interests and there was enough there (I felt relaxed enough one on one in his company) to make me think I want to invest more effort to form a friendship. It’s not there yet but it could well get there without hundreds of hours spent.
I have also consciously discarded a friend who was doing me no good in the past year.
Which is all probably a long way round of saying that these things move in mysterious ways and it is difficult to pin down according to any ‘rules’. [Tbc anon]
Sir LaR,
Your last couple of posts raised some pretty tough questions – ones that I didn’t have quick answers for – so I ended up procrastinating, telling myself that I need to first work my way out of my fairly substantial relapse, before I could tackle the tough questions.
I’ll start with the easiest one. The rise and fall of my friendships since young adulthood broadly tracks yours, with the possible difference that I always had a pretty small number of close friendships even while young, no more than three or four active – as opposed to latent friendships, those which have become inactive due to lack of proximity, but which could reignite rather quickly should circumstances change. In young adulthood, I was quite introverted, and made relatively little effort to broaden the pool of possible friendships. In the last seven or so years, I have made a much more deliberate effort to make more loose connections generally, and also to form new, deeper friendships. While I’ve been moderately successful with the former (at least compared to the preceding two decades or so), I can say that I’ve made only two (one with an asterisk), potentially deeper friendships. Interestingly, both of these have been with women – one a middle-aged lady friend in broadly similar life circumstances as me, and the much-discussed YLF, who wears the asterisk. This is not to say that I haven’t made efforts to form deeper bonds with men; it’s just that it has been harder to form NEW deeper connections with them within the past couple of decades, as opposed to earlier in life. I have, however, reconnected with several old friends that had fallen by the wayside, in some cases for up to four decades. Only one of these was with the woman (let’s call her CLF2), who, interestingly, made the greatest reciprocal effort amongst all of the lapsed friends, whom I met in person, along with her husband, a few months ago.
Now, about the asterisk. “you *know really* that attempting a friendship in your situation is pretty futile.” This is where choosing my words carefully, qualifying my answer, is the most difficult. I agree that ATTEMPTING a friendship, that is to say, trying to deepen it more than where it already stands, or even to insist that it stay at its current level, would not be a great idea. But I also feel that the other extreme, which would be permanently blocking her, would also not be, on net, the most desirable approach. I feel this way because she is one of only two people at work with whom I have relatively in-depth, not work-related, conversations, and in which it appears that both of us deeply value the friendship and make reciprocal efforts to sustain it. Of course, you could argue that “sustain” is a weird thing for me to say, given my simultaneous efforts at LC!
I’m going to describe three past situations that might provide hints as to how things might go after I leave the workplace for good.
The first is my former “mentor”, for lack of a better word. He was the principal investigator of a group that I worked in from the nineties up to his retirement about fifteen years ago. He treated me as though I was one of his favorite employees, and he acted as my chief advocate. We talked mostly about work, but occasionally had chitchat about other stuff going on in our lives – for example, his children’s marriages, my own marriage, etc. – but never at the level of intensity as with my YLF. After he retired, one of our former team members arranged roughly yearly luncheons, which I never initiated, but nearly always attended. After covid, these yearly get-togethers came to a halt and were never re-started. A few months before my own retirement two years ago, I sent him a personal note informing him of my plans. He told me that he was in the early stages of a cancer with a virtually 100 percent mortality rate, but that he would make every effort to attend. He not only attended, but gave probably the most flattering speech I can remember, to which I tried to reply in kind. Six months later, he succumbed to his cancer.
The second case involved a much younger male colleague/friend (YMF), with whom I worked with pretty closely for well over a year. We also discussed our respective immigrant stories (in his case, his parents’; he was born in the West), sibling and parental relations, etc., although his was some three decades later and from a different country than mine. He left our organization for another job about six years ago. By an unusual coincidence, my wife and I went on a tour of a country adjoining HIS COO, albeit the one he has never visited, but with very similar demographics and governments. For the first three or so years after he left, neither one of us attempted to contact the other, although I did want to tell him about my adventures near his COO. Then, about two years ago, I did text him, and we did have a friendly back-and-forth, with a loose intention to meet for coffee. That has yet to happen. Mind you, we had spent at least forty or fifty times as much time together in the workplace as with YLF – the requisite “200 hours” for a deep friendship. Yet, there has been (probably unwisely), more effort from both parties to keep up the friendship-with-an-asterisk.
The third case is the lady friend from college whom I discussed earlier. That was a limerent experience with a sharp ascent but also an equally sharp descent and an impressively fast transition into a friendship – not “best friends”, but a relationship with mutual regard and no mixed signals. Indeed, it was only when I realized that nothing romantic was going to ever happen, that the transition into friendship became possible. And that, too, was probably aided by the fact that I switched my focus back to another impressive but kind young lady – call her CLF1 – with whom the limerence had started much earlier and was more deeply entrenched. After graduating from college, I was back to pining only for CLF1, with whom, as you know, any possibility of friendship totally collapsed a few weeks after she finally contacted me. As to CLF2, we didn’t have contact for several years, until we re-connected via a mutual friend, and we emailed each other intermittently on random topics.
So, what I’m saying is that I have no idea how things are going to look like years or decades into the future. They might look like, in part, some or none of these scenarios. And I’m getting closer to accepting that uncertainty.
To CatCylist:
Could you be a Meowist and a Taoist at the same time, or are those mutually exclusive?
😼
Mila,
I’m leaving a message here for you —
1. Thai massage can be rough (done by MT’s body weight), be careful. Ask MT to be gentle with your back.
2. Find a professional Physical Therapist to evaluate your back, they’re very good to assess specific weak muscles anywhere in the body.
3. When I was doing PT for my injured right thigh, my lower back’s weakness/pains were found, because it compensated weaker thigh in daily activities. So I had to add a set back PT weekly (I’m so reluctant 😏 ), the pain has reduced.
4. Now, the right thigh is 95% recovered, so I can use both legs for strenuous moments, ie. picking up heavy bags, or stand on stronger legs, to let the back relax more.
5. Incorrect gym workouts could indirectly hurt the back slowly and accumulatively, which also happened to me before.
Good luck in removing the lower back pain. 🫂
Hi Snow,
Thanks vor your considerate and empathic post! The massage was ok, they always ask if it’s too strong etc. But my personal experience is that massages might feel good but seldom help. I used a voucher I got for a birthday, usually I don’t bother with massage often, I go to physical therapy more often.
I think the machine workout might not be the right thing after all, or not those at my gym. I remembered that a colleague of mine recommended a special sports physiotherapist with own machines who makes you an individual workout based on your problems. It just sounded so dull🙈but I guess I’ll ask for the number after all.
Thanks Snow!
Mila,
I didn’t want to say (to contradict your choice) in my last post: don’t rely on any massage. They’re just a temporary relief of pains, but never help strength muscles.
From my PT over a year, I’ve learned that even in body health, we have to rely on our own body, by doing tedious workouts, week after week, month after month, while all of our muscles decline at daily basis.
Based on my PT, machines are not tools to rely on, either. Just simple dumb bells, strong theraband, yoga mat, elbow mat, maybe a home bike/stepper, a big ball (for squaring and low back strength) are sufficient. My PT taught me so many movements and postures done in my simple room. Every movement is down slowly and concentrated mind.
Yes, talk to your physical/sport therapists to target on your own issue.
Good lucks! 🫂
Hi Snow,
Which strength/color is your theraband?
Thanks!
The problem is to find a good PT here. I know many but most of them aren’t really good. I‘ll ask my colleague.
I used silver first and broke it, now gold.
Yes, finding a good PT is tough. I happened to be lucky and it’s paid by my insurance.
Hi Snow,
I guess silver and gold is too strong for me, if we have the same color codes.
But I’ll look for a good PT and ask them.
Thanks!
Mila,
For open-loop robbery band, Gold is the strongest one, then Silver 2nd. Purple or Black 3rd? (For arms)
For closed-loop fabric/canvas band, pink is the strongest, then purple, then green. I just begin using pink mixed with purple. (For legs)
PT can evaluate your specific body condition. Gym machine, Pilate class, or YT videos target at general healthy bodies. Based on my PT, 90% of YT programs are incorrect or harmful, especially they’re ALL too fast. Trust me, I got plenty of injuries here and there (in lower back, hip, thighs) in the past 4 year, even after working with PT, due to incorrect movements at home.
I see aged people in cane, wheel chair, as well as young athletes in my Sport medicine/PT’s huge working room. Every body type gets some help there. They charge insurance little over $660 for 30 minutes. Here, PTP or Orthopedic doctors prescribe needed treatment.
When you get a PT, you NEED to work with them for a few sessions until you remember/master how to do certain movements SLOWLY and Correctly ON Your OWN at home. Relying on it once or twice a week is not enough to correct movement posture, cure a pain or strength a group of muscles.
It’s a bit “annoying” that I need to do them (some or all) daily (from 30~120 minutes slowing) just to feel alright, in BODY and MIND. If I skip (doing nothing) during the day, by the evening I either feel like a zombie or ready to punch a sandbag with aching here or there — internal energy gets stuck; unmoved/unmoving Qi affects our moods/mind and increases existing aches, if any.
I hope you find a PT soon!
Hi Snow,
Thanks for your advice! I think we‘ve got different color code here. But I’ve decided to do it all thoroughly now- I’ve a doctor’s appointment who I want to check what‘s going on with the lower back and who can prescribe me the physiotherapy. For this I’ll try to get the PT of my colleague who has a good reputation and owns a fitness space, and I’ll ask him to show me exercises and use the prescribed sessions for that. But it has to wait until after my vacation (doctor’s appointment will be before, but the PT).
I don’t have a severe condition like you had, I’m just frustrated at getting to the same point of low-key lower back pain every time I try to strength- train consistently.
I’m glad it helps you so much but it sounds a bit concerning that you feel like a zombie if you skip for one day? But maybe you just need your movement, there are types who need to move much to feel
good. I’m a bit more lazy in my character 😂
Mila,
Okay. It’s good to try from-low-to-high strength band one by one. Your PT can test out the beginning one for you.
Yes, I need physical movement everyday (PT can be done everyday, it’s very low impact)! There are simple, body-warming up/Tai Chi kinds I do when I’m tired or run out of time.
Please keep us informed, good luck!
No Second Troy
W. B. Yeats
Why should I blame her that she filled my days
With misery, or that she would of late
Have taught to ignorant men most violent ways,
Or hurled the little streets upon the great,
Had they but courage equal to desire?
What could have made her peaceful with a mind
That nobleness made simple as a fire,
With beauty like a tightened bow, a kind
That is not natural in an age like this,
Being high and solitary and most stern?
Why, what could she have done being what she is?
Was there another Troy for her to burn?
LaR,
Moved the post down here.
“But as much as we don’t need to know others’ body counts … we all know our own … don’t we?!”
I know the number I’ve done the full enchilada with. But there are a couple where I can’t remember how far things progressed. It wasn’t everything but it was beyond making out.
“Many people mis-report this stat. ”
Men tend to falsely increase the number; women falsely decrease it.
“A friend once told me his body count was 50. In my head I was like ‘yeah maybe across this and your previous nine lifetimes’.”
Lol. That was supposedly my college LO’s number. Or so he told me. It’s quite possible that was an exaggeration, but he did have a reputation and was good at approaching women, coming onto them and maneuvering them into a room alone, all of which is not common but particularly in a guy that young. I’m sure his number was high.
“That sounds uncomfortable, those men all knowing each other, and you not knowing who had said what to who. ”
I had a few guy friends at the job where I met my last big LO. They all knew I was into him and they all knew him but I don’t think that well.
I know my LO said something to his guy friends about me (I don’t know what) because he said they were razzing him about me. And he said something to a mutual acquaintance of ours about me; the acquaintance told me my LO’s exact words, and that was slippery because I was simultaneously trying to glean info from him while also not trying to appear like I was interested in my LO. In terms of what the friend of his I was hooking up with told him … that guy was married, too. (You knew that was coming.) So there was obviously a big incentive for him to keep his mouth shut. Whether he did or not, I don’t know. That guy did say something to one of my guy friends (this all sounds like high school, doesn’t it, like those Sweet Valley High teen novels). It was kind of vague but I think he said it so it would get back to me. The irony is … of course … I didn’t care.
“I have been surprised none of them has ever asked me about it, and wonder if they’ve asked LO (one of them is much closer to her than to me). ”
I’m assuming this other friend is a man ?
“Very much so. Like – impossibly different. I think that’s what got my and my siblings’ attention onto it. ”
I’m wondering if that person ever asked your grandma and grandpa about it.
“But some people make it easier to walk away from them than others do.”
You’re shifting the blame. It’s like if two people have an FWB. And one wants a lot more and the other knows it. Is it ethical for the second person to end it, knowing they are hurting the first person? Of course. But how often do you think that actually happens?
” I think from what you’re saying that your big LO was making it easy to walk, but you still didn’t for a long time?”
You’re asking that is like me asking if your LO is demure and spends her free time volunteering in the library.
Marcia,
‘Full enchilada’ – what a phrase/vision 😂
[“A friend once told me his body count was 50. In my head I was like ‘yeah maybe across this and your previous nine lifetimes’.”]
“but he did have a reputation and was good at approaching women, coming onto them and maneuvering them into a room alone”
Exactly. It was believable with your college LO because he had game. I know another guy – with game – who said his count was 50, and I believed him. But this other one I mentioned then came back in the same conversation and said his was 50 too – and there’s just no chance. I know both men equally well – and I could guess who at least half of the first guy’s 50 are, but for the second guy I couldn’t even name 5.
“I know my LO said something to his guy friends about me (I don’t know what) because he said they were razzing him about me.”
Once you get into territory like that, there is already ‘something’ there. That kind of razzing doesn’t happen without a reason. LO and I have had been jointly razzed many times to our faces and got good at dealing with it. What has surprised me more is that nobody involved in the razzing has ever taken me aside for a quiet, more serious word.
I guess that shows that nobody else is nearly as bothered about this stuff as a limerent is in their head 🙂
And it isn’t just you about Sweet Valley High – limerence often sounds like it.
“I’m assuming this other friend is a man ?”
No. Most of the mutual circle including this person are women. You think I’d actually do anything as sensible as having a male friend?
“I’m wondering if that person ever asked your grandma and grandpa about it.”
That’s a huge question. It shouldn’t be, but the level of denial/head-burying on that side of the family is staggering. Something that was really obvious is that this child was the grandma’s ….big favourite. But that can happen for many reasons, I guess.
[” I think from what you’re saying that your big LO was making it easy to walk, but you still didn’t for a long time?”]
“You’re asking that is like me asking if your LO is demure and spends her free time volunteering in the library.”
I mean it’s a good line to describe her like that – we can call her Plain Jane the Library Brain 🙂 But maybe I’ve missed the bigger point. I thought the LO did nothing for years (never texted, never repeated earlier ‘inviting on’ behaviours etc). Which would have made it easier in theory to walk away. What am I missing?
LaR,
“Full enchilada’ – what a phrase/vision 😂”
Right? 🙂
“I know both men equally well – and I could guess who at least half of the first guy’s 50 are, but for the second guy I couldn’t even name 5.”
Does this guy know that you know he’s full of shit? 🙂
Your side does tend to brag. Or maybe I bring that out in them. Idk. But they like to talk about their sexual conquests and sex with other women … usually when I’m in bed with them. I find it completely bizarre and off-putting. I can’t think of a worse time to discuss that. And I’m wondering why I am being put in the position of having to shut the conversation down. Why am I having to tell them not to discuss this topic, particularly at that time?
[“I know my LO said something to his guy friends about me (I don’t know what) because he said they were razzing him about me.”]
“Once you get into territory like that, there is already ‘something’ there. That kind of razzing doesn’t happen without a reason. ”
That LE was very different than yours. I never questioned if something was there. Not really. Not that it wasn’t nice to hear his friends were razzing him, but it was obvious something was there. When we first saw each other, it was a mutual cruise. My big question was if he was ever going to do anything about it.
“What has surprised me more is that nobody involved in the razzing has ever taken me aside for a quiet, more serious word.
I guess that shows that nobody else is nearly as bothered about this stuff as a limerent is in their head 🙂”
I actually did have someone pull me aside about my LO’s friend. The one I hooked up. By then, I had cut things off and was ignoring him. I can’t remember exactly what this person said but it was something about how the friend was staring at me a lot. I think ( if I remember correctly) that I played it off like the interest wasn’t mutual.
But, yeah … either people aren’t really that interested or … they know better to ask ?
“Most of the mutual circle including this person are women. You think I’d actually do anything as sensible as having a male friend?”
No. 🙂 I just kind of pictured her as someone who had more male friends than female friends.
“Something that was really obvious is that this child was the grandma’s ….big favourite. But that can happen for many reasons, I guess.”
That’s rough on the other kids, particularly if it’s obvious.
Was grandma in love with the real father? Or did her personality just click more with this child? Or she thought this child should have more attention because of his paternity (and looking different)?
I mean it’s a good line to describe her like that – we can call her Plain Jane the Library Brain 🙂”
I don’t care for that. I’m assuming she’s quite the opposite.
“I thought the LO did nothing for years (never texted, never repeated earlier ‘inviting on’ behaviours etc). Which would have made it easier in theory to walk away. What am I missing?”
Um … have you read anything that I’ve posted? You’ve been on here for YEARS. 🙂 He was extremely flirtatious (I wrote to Mila one of the comments he made … about picking out my clothes … and that was just the tip of the iceberg), very touchy feely, very complimentary about my appearance, a lot of eye contact, a lot of attention, singling me out. But, yes, all of that happened at work. He was very careful (and I’m sure very intentional) in maintaining that boundary.
Marcia,
“Does this guy know that you know he’s full of shit?”
At the time, no. Now, yes definitely.
“I can’t think of a worse time to discuss that.”
Nor me.
“When we first saw each other, it was a mutual cruise. My big question was if he was ever going to do anything about it.”
I don’t know your story with him as well as the LO-lite one. I knew about the initial cruise part, but mistakenly thought he dropped it and backed off sooner than you’re saying he did. I guess I got that confused with the ‘not doing anything to move it on’ part.
“But, yeah … either people aren’t really that interested or … they know better to ask?”
I wish more people didn’t ask about these gossip things in general. But it’s what makes the world go round. ‘They say a secret is something you tell one another person’ – it’s a song lyric, but it does tend to be many people’s mantra.
“No.I just kind of pictured her as someone who had more male friends than female friends.”
50-50. I have told you before about another female friend who doesn’t like her (who did ask me, and it didn’t go well – and she is still passive-aggressively trying and failing to get between me and LO at work). But LO is like marmite – some love her, some hate her, few are ambivalent.
“Was grandma in love with the real father? ”
He wasn’t alive for that much of my life, but my childhood memories are of those grandparents bickering a lot and not really seeming to like each other at all! It was true of many couples in that era though – just stayed together whatever.
“Or did her personality just click more with this child?”
It seemed to. And vice versa.
“Or she thought this child should have more attention because of his paternity (and looking different)?”
I don’t know because I don’t have the avenues to talk about it. I wish I had more to add here.
“He was very careful (and I’m sure very intentional) in maintaining that boundary.”
Different couples have different rules. We were out with a couple recently who were open about how they track each other on their phones and read all each other’s messages. I don’t want that being done to me, and I don’t want to do it my SO either. It isn’t healthy. I wonder if your xLO had a wife who went through all his messages, and that’s why he kept the work boundary.
LaR,
[“Does this guy know that you know he’s full of shit?”]
“At the time, no. Now, yes definitely.”
I think you can sometimes get an idea of how well someone has done with the opposite sex just by observing them. If you hang out with them enough. In your friend’s case, just by watching how he interacts with women and how women respond to him.
“I knew about the initial cruise part, but mistakenly thought he dropped it and backed off sooner than you’re saying he did.”
Oh, no. There was even some physical stuff that happened. The LE went on for a while so it wasn’t the same throughout. There were definitely periods of me pulling away and then of him pulling away (I never saw that coming, tbh) … but, as a general rule … he was flirtatious, complimentary, up in my business. The whole thing was very hard to walk away from.
“I guess I got that confused with the ‘not doing anything to move it on’ part.”
He went up to “the line ” …. that hideous line the members of your side who are partnered use and keep moving and redefining, all of a sudden, at whim, arbitrarily. 🙂
By “not moving on it” … I meant he didn’t contact me outside of work and wasn’t down to move things more forward physically. The way LO-lite had the guts to do. You can yell at me about that. That’s how I still see it. We’ve talked about this. Don’t get on the scale if you ain’t got the weight. 🙂
“I wish more people didn’t ask about these gossip things in general. ”
I will admit that I like gossip and some of the best gossip I have gotten … is from men. They’re every bit as gossipy as women.
“‘They say a secret is something you tell one another person’ – it’s a song lyric, but it does tend to be many people’s mantra.”
I’m not following. You tell “one person” and then everyone knows ?
[“No.I just kind of pictured her as someone who had more male friends than female friends.”]
“50-50. ”
She’ll figure out eventually that she doesn’t really have any male friends. They all have ulterior motives. 🙂
“I have told you before about another female friend who doesn’t like her (who did ask me, and it didn’t go well – and she is still passive-aggressively trying and failing to get between me and LO at work).”
I remember you mentioning her. I still think it’s strange, the behavior of this other friend. Maybe motivated by jealousy. Feels threatened by you friendship with your LO ?
” But LO is like marmite – some love her, some hate her, few are ambivalent.”
There are some people I don’t like at all and would be fine never seeing/interacting with again. But “hate” is a strong word. Does she elicit that strong of a response?
“my childhood memories are of those grandparents bickering a lot and not really seeming to like each other at all! It was true of many couples in that era though – just stayed together whatever.”
I think that’s true today, too. A lot of long-term couples either seem to bicker/pick at each other or ignore/tolerate each other. It’s actually not super common to see a long-term couple who seems to still like and enjoy each other. Which is why you notice it.
[“Or did her personality just click more with this child?”]
“It seemed to. And vice versa.”
I’ve always wondered that. I’m assuming parents love all their children but some they’re closer to and “get” more. Isn’t that true of all relationships? This “I don’t have a favorite” … I’m not sure I buy it.
“Different couples have different rules. We were out with a couple recently who were open about how they track each other on their phones and read all each other’s messages. I don’t want that being done to me, and I don’t want to do it my SO either. It isn’t healthy. ”
OMG, that’s complete enmeshment. No, thank you.
“I wonder if your xLO had a wife who went through all his messages, and that’s why he kept the work boundary.”
Idk. That’s one thing I’d like to know but of course never will. Was that always a boundary he knew he’d keep (meaning he was just along for the attention/thrills/chills) or did he honestly struggle with it the way I did?
Marcia,
“but, as a general rule … he was flirtatious, complimentary, up in my business.”
I can see why that was agonising, if he did all that for ages but never moved it on. And why his behaviour compares less favourably to LO Lite’s.
“He went up to “the line ” …. that hideous line the members of your side who are partnered use and keep moving and redefining”.
Indeed – it is a pretty meaningless phrase to a third party, because everyone’s line is in a different place.
“Was that always a boundary he knew he’d keep (meaning he was just along for the attention/ thrills/ chills) or did he honestly struggle with it the way I did?”
It is (like you said) not something you’ll ever know, so not worth ruminating much on … but I’d suspect it was a boundary imposed by whatever ‘line’ he and his SO had. Given that he went ‘right up to the line’, I struggle (from a point of view of male psyche) to then think he could be solely imposing that line on himself.
“I will admit that I like gossip and some of the best gossip I have gotten … is from men.”
I would never have guessed 🙂
“I’m not following. You tell “one person” and then everyone knows?”
Someone tells you (plural). You tell one person. They tell one other. Repeat to infinity. So it never really stays secret. I am not saying everyone is like this. I will keep generally secrets that are at the level high enough for the person to say to me ‘please don’t tell anyone’. But it would depend a little on my level of trust and ‘priors’ with the person who asks – have they leaked my secrets in the past, for example?
“She’ll figure out eventually that she doesn’t really have any male friends. They all have ulterior motives.🙂”
Most of her other male friends seem to be long-termers. There are just a couple of newer ones. She is selective.
“I still think it’s strange, the behavior of this other friend. Maybe motivated by jealousy. Feels threatened by you friendship with your LO ?”
Almost certainly. I am pretty sure this woman has no interest in me as any more than friends. I just don’t think she likes me having a closer work friend than her. And she distrusts LO’s motives towards me – without a basis in my view.
“But “hate” is a strong word. Does she elicit that strong of a response?”
No – I was too glib and ‘marmitey’ in my language. Most people like her. But I have had just a couple of people express visceral dislike for her. Certain personalities will always clash – when people dislike her, it is because she is “too much” (loud, opinionated) for their more introverted characters.
“I’ve always wondered that. I’m assuming parents love all their children but some they’re closer to and “get” more. Isn’t that true of all relationships? This “I don’t have a favorite” … I’m not sure I buy it.”
I guess many parents try not to have a favourite, but clicking better with one person over another is just human nature. I have changed my perceptions of how all this works in my family (whether there are favourites, and with whom) as I’ve moved through life.
What I find interesting here is that nearly everyone would say their sibling is their parents’ favourite! You could ask two siblings the question separately and they’d both answer that the other was. And older, middle and younger siblings have groupish narratives about their role in families, and the reasons why. For instance – oldest siblings often complain about being the most tightly controlled, middle siblings about being ignored, youngest siblings about having near impossible expectations to live up to. I am WAY over-generalising for the sake of simplicity,
… but it interests me how different groups of siblings often end up saying similar things.
LaR,
“And why his behaviour compares less favourably to LO Lite’s.”
I’m sure you’ve noticed … I’m pretty black and white when it comes to men. Shit or get off the pot. Make a move or go away. This “gray zone” your side seems to love to linger in (at least on this site!) … drives me insane. 🙂
“but I’d suspect it was a boundary imposed by whatever ‘line’ he and his SO had. Given that he went ‘right up to the line’, I struggle (from a point of view of male psyche) to then think he could be solely imposing that line on himself.”
I disagree. I had this conversation with about 4-ish people on the forum. All partnered. Not one had ever had the conversation with their partner about where the line was. What their partner considered the line; what they considered the line. When I suggested having that conversation … the response was: That’s weird. And of course they had never discussed with their partner if they’d want to be told if they fell in love with someone else (limerence). People make a lot of assumptions in LTRs. I’m sometimes surprised how many.
So whereas I’m sure his wife knew he was a big flirt, I’m be fairly certain she’d have been uncomfortable with the physical stuff that happened between us. It would go over most peoples’ lines. Once he went over that line, he reimposed it (while still being very flirtatious). It was very confusing. I always wondered if he wanted me to come onto him again. If he was trying to get me to do it.
[“I will admit that I like gossip and some of the best gossip I have gotten … is from men.”]
“I would never have guessed 🙂”
Do I seem gossipy? I don’t think of myself like that. (I’m not offended, btw.)
” I will keep generally secrets that are at the level high enough for the person to say to me ‘please don’t tell anyone’. But it would depend a little on my level of trust and ‘priors’ with the person who asks – have they leaked my secrets in the past, for example?”
It really depends on the friendship. Work-level friends who want to tell me gossip about other co-workers? Sure, I’ll listen. 🙂 Someone I consider a close friend … their personal stuff stays with me.
I am careful what I tell people at work. (I think it’s hard to make close friends at work. In a sense, you are competing.) Much more careful than I used to be at my former company where I met my last big LO. I had told someone about him and we had a falling out, and I was worried this person would blab. I was SOOOO relieved when they left the company.
“Most of her other male friends seem to be long-termers. There are just a couple of newer ones. She is selective.”
I’m willing to put some money down they all would hook up with her if given the chance (or if their circumstances allowed it). 🙂
“And she distrusts LO’s motives towards me – without a basis in my view.”
Does she think you LO is after you? If so, her pace of pursuit is … um … very slow. 🙂
“I guess many parents try not to have a favourite, but clicking better with one person over another is just human nature.”
I agree. I don’t believe that parents don’t click more with one child over another.
And also … sometimes parents and kids … well, don’t click at all. Or much.
“For instance – oldest siblings often complain about being the most tightly controlled, middle siblings about being ignored, youngest siblings about having near impossible expectations to live up to. I am WAY over-generalising for the sake of simplicity,
… but it interests me how different groups of siblings often end up saying similar things.”
I have heard variations of this. The oldest usually feels their parents were stricter with them than the youngest sibling. Like … the parents were tired by the time they got to the youngest and just kind of said, “Do whatever you want.” 🙂
Marcia,
“Not one had ever had the conversation with their partner about where the line was. What their partner considered the line; what they considered the line.”
There are LINES and lines. These obviously vary depending on the partnership. In mine, the LINE (discussed between SO and me in the past) is any kind of PA (which includes kissing someone). If I went over that line, I’d expect my SO to end it with me.
But I won’t try to pretzel here – I have gone over ‘lines’ with how emotionally close I got to my LO, and I know it. SO and I have never sat down and discussed exact emotional ‘lines’ (“you can do this, but not do that’) but I can get a feel for them. Should she find out about my LE, I wouldn’t expect her to dump me, but I’d expect a lot of angst and anger and for that not to go away for a long time (and I’d accept that as fair). None of that is a comment or attempted justification on the morality aspect, just what I think would happen between the two people involved. And I think you’ll say that letting myself get as emotionally close as I did to my LO is worse than a one off physical occurrence like a kiss. I’d agree to a good extent, but my SO would see a kiss as the bigger betrayal.
Both things would break a lot of trust – and I think that’s the wider point here.
“And of course they had never discussed with their partner if they’d want to be told if they fell in love with someone else (limerence).”
That’s why most limerents don’t want to disclose it to their SO. It’s pretty embarrassing and not a good look.
“I always wondered if he wanted me to come onto him again. If he was trying to get me to do it.”
Potentially. But it wouldn’t have disowned or reduced his responsibility if it happened that way round. Do you think a lot of men think that way – kind of ‘she came onto me, so it’s not my fault’ rationalising?
“Do I seem gossipy? I don’t think of myself like that. (I’m not offended, btw.)”
You are able to come up with good questions that encourage people to say more. That’s not the same as being a gossip, but it means you are able to get to know stuff. So you would have potential gossip ‘in-hand’ compared to a less inquisitive person. I don’t find you gossip on here – you talk directly to posters rather than being ‘so and so says…’ or claiming to represent third party LwLers’ experiences or views. (I don’t count when it is done purely in jest, which most regulars here do sometimes). As I don’t know you beyond this place, I’m not sure. I think further back in the thread you did say you enjoyed gossiping with men 🙂
In life, I find the bad gossips out themselves eventually. There are people that are good at getting me to share things. But then I look at what level of gossip they tell me about other people. If they are doing it that way round, then why would my secrets be safe with them? They wouldn’t. People out themselves.
“I had told someone about him [last big LO] and we had a falling out, and I was worried this person would blab.”
I understand that. It’s the same with that female friend I keep saying about who dislikes my LO. I have to keep her closer than I’d ideally want to, as she is the sole person at work who knows anything concrete about the LE. And she WOULD use it to make life difficult for me if we fell out.
“Does she think you LO is after you? If so, her pace of pursuit is … um … very slow.“
Exactly. I don’t know why she would think so. She says that when all three of us are in the same environment (rare, thankfully) that LO ‘wants you all to herself’ (her words). I think it stems from insecurity, because she was my friend before LO and I got closer. LO behaves no differently in her presence than she does the rest of the time. I have told her a million times that I am happy to have both of them as friends SEPARATELY. LO sometimes asks me what her problem is, and I do have to pretzel the answer to that. Now am
I the one who sounds High School?
“I’m willing to put some money down they all would hook up with her if given the chance (or if their circumstances allowed it).“
How about the idea that she might just have loads of good qualities of a friend that men appreciate?! Because I keep on telling you, she does 🙂 Forget about me here, as we have done that debate to death – I am talking about other men who to the best of my knowledge don’t carry a torch for her.
“And also … sometimes parents and kids … well, don’t click at all. Or much.”
SO has a theory that you either get on with a parent as a child, or as an adult, but it is unusual to get on at both stages. That hasn’t been my experience – which has been that both parental relationships have changed up and down at different times in life. In mine and SO’s familial cases, things get in the way. Now sometimes these are very real things that are hard to get past. At other times they are very trivial things that come to assume way more importance than they’re worth.
“The oldest usually feels their parents were stricter with them than the youngest sibling. Like … the parents were tired by the time they got to the youngest and just kind of said, “Do whatever you want.””
And the youngest might look at that and feel their parents didn’t care as much or pay them the same level of attention as their older sibling(s). Both things can be true at the same time, but in my experience both sides often mobilise their angles to claim they are the more hard-done-to by the parents.
Wondering if Adam is around or if anyone has heard anything from him?
He’s been quiet. Probably trying to get affiliated with the new job. New hours.
Starting a new job can be stressful. Hope to his return also.
Thank you for noticing my comment and responding.
He just commented on one of the other posts, “Escaping” I believe. Something about bologna sandwiches??