Following on from last week’s coffeehouse, where I asked for feedback on what to prioritise in the coming months here at living with limerence, this is another quick post, just to set out my thoughts.
Thanks to all those who contributed, and sorry that I haven’t been answering much in the comments thread (see point 2 below for more info). I do appreciate all the feedback, and did read all the comments.
So, with that out of the way, let set out the roadmap.
1. Workshops
The emergency deprogramming course is a comprehensive system for getting out of a specific limerent episode. I’m super proud of it, as it is designed to lead people from a state of limerent agony to a purposeful future, free of that distress.
But, sometimes people don’t need all that.
They just have an immediate problem they need quick help with, and some practical tips on how to manage the worst symptoms of limerence.
So, I’m going to trial some low-cost workshops that deal with specific limerence problems.
First up, is going to be intrusive thoughts.
I’ve been going down a rabbit hole of academic literature on obsessive thoughts and behavioural addiction lately, and it’s really interesting.
Lots of jargon inevitably – verbal perseveration, imaginal prefiguration, desire thinking, metacognitive beliefs, elaborated intrusion theory, and so on – but it really is highly applicable to the thought loops of limerence.
Depending on how successful that workshop is, I’ll think about future topics that could be useful. And, as ever, feel free to make suggestions in the comments below.
2. Case studies
I’ve always just run LwL on an ad hoc basis, and have an open comment box for people to get in touch.
That worked well when it was a blog with a few hundred readers, but nowadays, I have to be honest, I’m swamped.
I’ve spread myself so thin over the blog, the YouTube comments section, and the partners community, that I just can’t answer many of the people who get in touch, and that makes me feel crappy.
So, a solution I’m going to trial to deal with the problem of email overload is to have an explicit contact box just for people who are seeking help with their situation, who are willing to be “case studies” for the blog and YouTube channel.
That way, they get free help, I get to answer common questions in an evergreen way, and everybody learns something (hopefully).
Obviously, I will still respect anonymity and blur some details for identifiability so people don’t have to reveal too much about themselves, but this seems like a sensible strategy for managing the large number of limerents who reach out for help but are currently getting a very unreliable response from me.
3. Community
For a couple of years I ran a private community on the site. It was popular, but as with the issue of too much correspondence, it rapidly became too much content to moderate as a “solopreneur”.
There were a few understandable comments in the last coffeehouse about how great it would be to have an edit button, how hard it can be to find commenters’ contributions on the site, and the fear of publicly revealing real names or other sensitive information.
Unfortunately, those issues stem from the fact that the site runs on wordpress, which is a blogging platform not a community platform. I don’t have the IT skills needed to implement those features, as it would mean tinkering with the basic operation of the software.
The obvious solution is what we’ve done for the partners’ community – have a dedicated site that people pay to join, so I can afford to commit the time and energy needed to make it work.
That is a possibility.
Certainly, what’s missing from the current emergency deprogramming course is social accountability, social support, and individual feedback on a limerent’s specific circumstances.
Now, many of my students don’t want those features – they want something they can do quietly on their own, with maximal privacy, and minimal risk of discovery.
That’s fine – it’s what I would have wanted when I was limerent, and it would still be available.
But a better option would be for each to choose what they wanted:
Do it yourself, do it with community support, or do it with personal 1:1 coaching.
Those could be “tiers” of engagement in a future, revivified deprogramming system.
So, that’s the current plan, in the current order that I’ll be implementing things.
I’m open-minded about what will happen. I’ve always approached the site from the perspective of an experimental scientist. Test something, see what happens, respond accordingly.
That’s what I’ll keep doing.
And, finally, I know many of the regulars here aren’t looking for focused “recovery” material, so much as enjoying the camaraderie of chatting with friends and limerence veterans.
That’ll still be here in the coffeehouse, of course.
But it feels good to have a bit more clarity on the direction of travel for the whole LwL enterprise.
Sounds ambitious, DrL!
You’ve come a long way since the early blogs!
I’d love to be part of the operation but my involvement with LwL would cause problems that I don’t need.
Best of luck!
Thanks L.E.
Good to hear from an O.G. commenter 😉
Hope all well with you.
Thanks, DrL!
I wasn’t sure if O.G. meant “original gangsta” or “Old Guard.” Either one fits.
As a suggestion, maybe it’s time to open a Coffeehouse on Disclosure. It’s an important topic and could drive people to the blogs on it.
As many of us understand, disclosure can be navigating a minefield.
Hello LE
I am curious about what you mean when you say that your involvement would cause problems that you don’t need. The information I have received from this website has been immensely helpful to me but I often wonder if at this stage (four years since the onset of my one and only LE and three years with NC) I am inhibiting my recovery instead of furthering it by returning here. Is this what you mean or something else?
LwL is wonderful and it helped me immensely. I’m one of DrL’s biggest fans.
Limerence caused problems in my marriage. Those problems have largely been taken care of.
I think spending time working for LwL would bring up issues that are best left undisturbed.
Thank you, LE.
My LE was extremely disruptive to my marriage, though it forced some changes that have been positive, and I actually feel closer to my husband now than ever. My limerence has greatly dissipated but I would not say I’m fully recovered and I hate how much I still do think about my LO, largely out of habit. I visit LWL thinking that one day I will read the post that magically cures me, but I also fear that visiting the site may be another habit, one that perpetuates the thinking about LO. I understand why you would not want to spend more time here.
“The things you think about determine the quality of your mind. Your soul takes on the color of your thoughts.” – Marcus Aurelius, Meditations.
Our creative/active thinking or reactive/passive thoughts, and consequential actions/reactions determine our life quality. All Tangible materials are basic means for us to survive — not enough to thrive.
“My glass is half full” vs. “My glass is half empty” sets apart optimism and pessimism; it takes persistent practices to beneficially, lastingly color one’s mind.
👩🦰 🏃♂️,
I have a similar question: you’re the longest recovered Limmy, why can’t you help with DrL’s operation? What problems could possibly affect your settled, retired life?
I just strolled into an open all women band rock concert. on a pier, with real soothing breeze massaging face… some young, old, kids are gently rocking along… 77 F .
https://imgur.com/a/24Elgf9
The life here and now is just beautiful….
Dear DrL,
I am a new reader of the blog and am willing to be a case study. I recently finished your book “Smitten” (suggested by a BBC article) – thank you from the bottom of my heart, now I fully understand the phenomenon I have been living with for some time.
This is my story. I am a married mid-lifer with two little children. A couple of years ago, I started a new job, and, after a while, I became limerent for a colleague. I had never experienced something like that in my life. At that time, I did not know anything about limerence, nevertheless I decided by myself to limit contact. It gave me some relief for few months, then I relaxed my measures as I was convinced that I could have contact with her without being so emotionally invested. I went back to square one. Four months ago, she went into maternity and I haven’t seen her since then – de facto NC.
Where am I now? I think about the overall LE every day. What bothers me the most is the feeling of frustration (sometimes rage) against myself to have let myself slip into this mess. I still have fantasies and memories, but I counteract them with the tactics described in “Smitten” obtaining a decent success. At this point, there are three questions I would like to ask you and the LwL community:
1) How can I manage my frustration?
2) Am I going to relapse once the LO is back from maternity?
3) When is the LE going to end?
Thanks for reading my reply.
Hello D
I’ll try to keep it short and simple.
1. You manage the frustration by acknowledging it and trying not to beat yourself up over it. Focus on your family and the blessings you have been given. To me it sounds like this LE has not consumed you to a degree of great distress. Being that you were in control of your emotions and limited your contact. This is a good first step.
2. Whether or not you relapse upon her return depends on you. You are in control of your own emotions. If you limit your contact, there is risk if you start letting those glimmery feelings take root again, causing more frustration. Better to remain strict NC if you feel you cannot handle being around her without letting feelings disrupt things.
3. Based on my own LE and many others the standard time is usually around 18 months or so. Like you I am a mid-lifer but I am not married and neither is my colleague LO, almost half my age. The worst of my LE was mainly my own fault because I was in a depressive funk for almost an entire year, due to things never working out between us. My story is all over this forum.
Of course everybody’s LE is different. Some are intense and some are weak. If I have one main regret, its never getting to actually know my LO so I could at least get to learn about the person I was working with. In my LE, I dwelled a lot in fantasy and rumination which was never healthy. I allowed all of that to fester and then I became depressed over what never was. It’s silly, but external life events, no matter how much or how little you think they matter, have an effect on what degree your LE will do to you mentally.
Thank you MJ for sharing your story.
Unfortunately, when the LO is back from maternity, I will not be able to have NC. My only option will be to limit contact, and this make me worry that I will be more prone to relapse. Hopefully not, as I am now much more equipped compared to my first attempt.
Regarding my frustration, I bet that acknowledgement and acceptance are the only way, no shortcuts. My counsellor and I are working on these points: this is a slow process, and I guess it takes time to appreciate the change in my internal attitude towards myself.
Thank you again.
For an intense LE like I had, one mired in fantasy and illusion, it has calmed down considerably. It’s taken about 4+ years to get here, but I still hold her in pretty high regard. In a way I suppose this is a default reaction because I have no current SO. So I don’t really feel any worry about ever overdoing things. I know it’s limitations and contact between us is almost non-existent. I enjoy thinking of her but it only causes me grief if I allow it. It doesn’t control me like it used to.
Even in friendships with other Women, that never quite reached a limerent episode (because I swear on my life, I’ve only had one true LE) there have been some relationships that I look back on now and wonder, what was I thinking? I think this mindset is probably the most honest assessment of knowing you are truly over a person. Acceptance is key, and you are correct that it does take time.
D,
On your points, and developing what others have already said:
1) How can I manage my frustration?
I’d agree with what you’ve been talking about with the others – only by taking the long journey to acceptance. I think things like doing exercise and other ‘purposeful pursuits’ can really help on a day to day basis, but it keeps coming back until we’ve reached some understanding and acceptance of why it happened.
2) Am I going to relapse once the LO is back from maternity?
You’ve talked about LC being your strategy and it sounds like the best one. From my experience, don’t give yourself “little bits of rope” with this. Know your boundaries and keep reviewing how you’re sticking to them. A little bit of rope easily becomes a little bit more and then a little bit more, and that could be route 1 to relapse. I’ve been down this road many times.
3) When is the LE going to end?
I don’t think anyone can really answer this. 2-3 years is said to be the average but it varies so much based on what the person does to end it – if you go back througb the posts in this place, you can find examples ranging from months to decades.
D,
What do you think of Dr. L’s suggestion to disclose to your spouse?
I’m also very curious if any other limerents have done that & would share how that went, and if the end of the secrecy helped at all. I know from past comments that there have been a few of you…
LiSO,
Find the “Search the Site” button on the page and enter “disclosure.” You can also search on it in the Archives via the link at the bottom of the page.
Libra iSO,
I haven’t disclosed my LE to SO, and I agonised for a long while about whether to – I still wonder about it at times. I laid out all the facts of my LE a while back to one of the other SOs on this site, and she said she thought on balance it was best I didn’t disclose it if I could push through and end it alone.
I’d be interested to know your take on what I’m about to write if you’re willing, you having been through this. (By the way, I can’t remember if your SO disclosed or if you asked him directly or found out some other way?).
Here is the quandary I’ve wrestled with, maybe other married or partnered limerents of this parish too. I’d want two things to happen tip the balance towards disclosing to my SO. The first is I would have to be willing to accept (and even expect) that she’d be angry and upset with me for letting my relationship with my LO get to the place it did (near EA though not disclosed). Those emotions would be justified and I would take them on the chin. But for disclosure to achieve anything, I’d need SO to listen to me on the point that my becoming limerent for someone else (while not good) is not nearly the same thing as “I don’t love you and don’t want to be with you anymore” – the LE
is more a reflection of personal issues I need to work on (and same for other limerents in my position), than something the SO has done wrong.
What do you think about this, Libra? Is it an unreasonable hope to want the SO to listen to and believe some of that, after a disclosure (crucially – not presented as excuse or as justification, but as explanation)? That’s what worries me. Could my SO do that? I’m not sure. I know there is the argument that after disclosure, both partners are “in it together”. Some on LwL have confirmed that as a good move. But it is a risk, and a lot of pain to put the SO through if no good comes of it. I kind of took a view “I got into this mess myself, and so I need to solve it myself”.
I’m sorry if anything I said hits a raw nerve. I am just putting some of the thought processes I went through out there. And I do want you to tell me if you think I’m wrong.
Hi Libra iSO,
I agree with LaR. I feel that disclosing to my SO will throw a lot of pain and suffering to her, with a very uncertain outcome in terms of resolution of my limerence. I would rather prefer to spend energy and time to deeply talk with my SO, unearth issues and misunderstandings and try to resolve them, rather than trying to explain her what limerence is and what this means for me.
As I said in my first post, I am very new to LwL, so I am open to other opinions as well.
Thank you
Hello LaR and D – I am the SO who suggested that LaR not disclose. (Of course, there may have been another SO who suggested the same thing.) I’m not sure how to find my comment again, but I do want to add nuance to what I said.
I’m actually not at all opposed to disclosing to SO. I think in most cases it’s the right thing to do. However, it is important to consider your motivation in disclosing. If the limerence is behind you (or mostly behind you), if you are absolutely certain your SO will not discover your LE, and if your goal is to simply unburden yourself, then you should probably not disclose.
I do believe honesty and transparency are highly important in a relationship. My own husband did tell me about his limerence (though only after I’d figured it out and asked him). He didn’t know anything about limerence; I’m the one who suggested to him that his feelings for LO sounded like limerence. He agreed.
It was a very difficult thing for me to hear about. I think it was very difficult for him to talk about it. I knew he had no intention to hurt me, but that’s not to say I was not very hurt. Still, I think our very frank and open discussions led us to a point where our marriage is more intimate (emotionally and physically) than it was before and during his LE.
However, I think one of the factors to consider when deciding to disclose to SO is whether SO is capable of “not taking it personally.” This would be extremely difficult to do. I definitely took it very personally in the beginning and it took a lot of time and a lot of thinking on my part to arrive at a more semi-objective way of looking at his limerence.
You should definitely be ready for extreme duress, possibly PTSD in your SO if you disclose. You need to make sure SO knows your goal is to maintain the marriage/relationship. If there were conditions in your relationship (such as unmet needs) that may have made you more vulnerable to limerence, then those conditions should be discussed.
If your SO suspects or asks any questions, you should definitely disclose. And if there is a chance your SO may discover your LE, then I would disclose sooner instead of later.
I hope this helps you both.
SO Miranda,
Thanks for identifying yourself and adding the nuance flavouring. Yes, it was you I meant as the SO in question (and I knew that), but I didn’t want to say that without context – I felt if I wrote “Miranda suggested X” without the correct nuance, it wouldn’t be right.
Thank you for trying to help me and other limerents on this site, and by association their SOs. I am glad to hear that the work you and your SO did on his limerence ultimately led you to a better place in the relationship – that’s a great outcome from no doubt an initially terrible process.
“However, I think one of the factors to consider when deciding to disclose to SO is whether SO is capable of “not taking it personally.””
This is the bit I really grapple with. I know my SO would not be ‘capable’ of that (though I’m relieved you used the word first, but it is a word I thought about using before). But is it ever a reasonable expectation for a limerent to expect their SO to ‘capable’ of it? Should an SO ever be, if they care enough about their relationship?
The ‘like PTSD’ reaction is fully what I’d expect to get. But I think that would be true for most SOs of limerents (and also kind of ‘should be’?). So to set up for that reaction and what follows it … big leap of faith for the limerent. Like detonating a bomb that you have a decision on whether or not to detonate.
My limerence is further behind me now but I still wonder if not disclosing was right. I may add a bit more about that when I have more time.
D, I have hijacked your post a bit, apologies. I will write you a proper reply to your questions later.
Dear Dr. L,
I just wanted to thank you so much for everything you’ve been doing for limerents and this community.
A bit of context: I went through a severe limerent episode with a coworker while I was discovering that my dad had terminal cancer and grieving his passing. I truly believed my relationship with my LO was somehow spiritual, and letting go of that belief was incredibly difficult.
Then, one day, I found your work on limerence. I read everything I could find. I read all your articles, and then I read every comment I could. After about six months of learning, reflecting, and working on myself, I’m finally able to maintain low contact for three months now—after thousands of failed attempts over four years of limerence.
Eventually, I realized that my limerence was really about me and my unmet needs. Now I can keep moving forward without constantly hyper-focusing on LO.
I just wanted to thank you from the bottom of my heart. I wish I could give you all a hug and tell you that what you’re doing truly changes lives.
And to anyone still struggling with limerence: it does get better. It really does.
Thank you!
Glad to hear your progressive recovery, please keep moving forward with the tough work… Life does not stand still, and it does get better!
Every voice, big and small, strong and weak, lost and found… is heard and accepted here. Please feel free and safe to talk with us and unload your LE stresses whenever you feel like it.
A hug back to you 🫂 with best wishes!
Thanks a lot for your kindness. It means a lot!
To L.E,
Thanks for the suggestion to re-read the disclosure posts & comments! Took me a while, but it helped me to organize my thoughts. And great suggestion of a Coffeehouse on Disclosure!
To LaR,
My feelings about this are in line with what Miranda says. Her suggestion to emphasize that your goal is to save your marriage/relationship. I will add that Dr. L’s tipping points need to be considered, as well as length of LE/EA. The extent of the disloyalty matters. In these cases, it is much better get it out in the open asap rather than have it discovered by iSO. I accidentally found several years of texts & pics on my husband’s phone. I was blindsided because up until then, we had a mostly wonderful 30 year marriage. The aftermath has been unnecessarily traumatic, with atrocious limerent devaluing, gaslighting, stonewalling, darvo-ing, etc. It qualifies as emotional abuse.
Only in hindsight did I see the signs that something was “off” before the discovery.
Which brings me to my next point.
The intuition that something isn’t right is damaging to an iSO even if not consciously recognized. Again, it’s emotional abuse (even if it’s unintentional!) to put someone you supposedly love and are committed to, through this. If you want to do a deeper dive, the book “Cheating in a Nutshell” by Wayne and Tamara Mitchell is the best I’ve read on the subject.
To D,
I wish my husband would put as much effort into understanding limerence and as you and many others here have!
I’m grateful for everyone’s contributions.
However, I disagree that it is your decision to decide FOR your iSO what is the best way to handle your addiction. You are taking away their choice and their reality.
When an iSO is told “but it has nothing with your worth or the quality of the marriage”, it’s a double-edged sword. It’s reassuring in one sense, is understandable in the context of addiction, but also extremely disturbing because it doesn’t change the fact that there is SOMEONE ELSE in the marriage! Someone else that the iSO is competing with, blindfolded, hands tied behind their back.
But again, a lot of factors to consider!
Let’s all continue to explore this, as I truly believe that the more opinions we are exposed to, the more likely it is that can use the information to live a healthy and purposeful life.
Although without a SO, I can’t help agree with your stand…
In theory, I’d disclose to SO with sincere apologies. I’d trust my chosen SO’s capacity to forgive and move forward together with me. If he is unable, then it would
mean my choice of him is “off”.
Don’t underestimate and thus decide for a SO’s abilities to understand human vulnerabilities, to help strength you, and to repair the relationship wound.