This week’s video:
If you’re trapped in a mental state of limerence—a state of intense romantic infatuation—one of the best ways to recover is to go No Contact with the person that you’re obsessing over.
It makes sense: if limerence is like an addiction, you should cut off your supply of love drug.
But… what if you can’t?
What if you have to spend time with your limerent object?
In this video I’ll show you how to deal with that limitation, and, in fact, how you can turn it to your advantage.
Right, what to do when you can’t go No Contact.
This problem is actually one of the commonest questions I get from struggling limerents: I know I should go no contact but I can’t, because I work with my limerent object, or they’re my neighbour, or my child’s teacher, or my sister in law.
And, well, fair enough. Life is going to throw obstacles in your way, barriers that can’t easily be overcome, limitations that you’re going to have to find a way to work around.
To figure out how to manage it, we need to analyse why no contact works, what it really means in practice, and how you can turn contact into a tool for recovery if you really can’t avoid it.
Why No Contact works
Limerence, fundamentally, is a massive natural high that can be caused by another person.
They make you feel amazing.
Just being with them can cause euphoria, exhilaration; love intoxication.
At the level of neuroscience, the arousal, reward and bonding systems are all maxed out and enhancing each other, and driving you into an altered state of mind that really feels like you are “in love”—and an especially dizzying and overwhelming type of love at that.
It’s a natural high so high that it can become addictive.
If the state of limerence persists for long enough it can transition into a behavioural addiction—addiction to the other person.
Now, I’ve detailed all the neuroscience in a previous video, but the upshot is that once limerence has progressed to this stage, all the problems of addiction begin to manifest.
Just as for any other addiction, recovery is going to depend on you stopping the supply of your drug.
And if you’re addicted to another person, No Contact is the obvious way to achieve that.
However, going cold turkey and cutting all contact with your limerent object in one go is not necessarily the best way to manage it. It can be better to sort of taper off contact more slowly, reducing the time you spend with them progressively, so that you don’t feel the full shock of withdrawal in one go
And that approach generally causes less of a disruption to your established routines too—people do notice if you suddenly ghost them.
So, sometimes limiting contact is the best first step in recovery, and that can be a useful mindset if you can’t go No Contact completely.
Focus instead on what you can limit.
Look at your daily routines. How much contact do you have with your limerent object? How much of that lies within your control? How much could you limit contact while still meeting all your professional and personal obligations?
That baseline is the target to aim for.
Strategise about how to get from where you are, to the point of limiting contact as much as you can.
What does Contact mean?
Now, not all contact is physical. We don’t need to actually be present in the company of our limerent objects in order to reinforce the addiction.
Nowadays, we have a very powerful tool for getting an indirect, but still intoxicating, high.
Your mobile or tablet can give a sneaky hit of limerence sugar at any time of the day and night.
There are lots of indirect channels for contact that can feed limerent desire.
Texting, WhatsApp, Slack, Telegram, all the many ways that we can communicate with our limerent object through technology are going to fuel limerence and slow recovery.
Social media is another common pitfall. I mean it’s easy to justify. It’s not really “contact” is it? It’s totally passive.
But many limerents use the massive database of pictures and words that their limerent object has put up online as a way to repair their mood.
When they feel down or anxious, that picture of their limerent object looking really happy and gorgeous is only a couple of clicks away.
Browsing can be a self-medication strategy.
Like methadone for heroin, social media can be a second-rate hit of limerence relief—just enough to kill the craving, without solving the problem.
So, look at all the many ways you expose yourself to your limerent object, figure out which ones you can cut out, and limit your indirect contact as much as you can.
Use contact to deprogram yourself
OK, so it’s obvious why limiting contact is useful for recovery, and you can eliminate all the channels that are within your control.
What do you do about the contact you can’t avoid?
Well, one of the guiding principles behind my limerence recovery system is that you work with the situation you’re in, not with an impossible ideal.
If something is outside of your control, don’t waste time getting upset about it, just try and turn it to your advantage.
In this case, you can accept the power that your limerent object has over you and your emotions, but direct that power into recovery not reinforcement.
It’s sort of a form of mental judo. Don’t try and stop the emotions head on, instead try and turn them around.
You might have to have contact with your limerent object, but you don’t have to enjoy it.
If you want to break free from limerence, use contact time to focus on the negative aspects of the experience. Dwell on your limerent object’s flaws.
If they have poor hygiene or terrible dress sense then maybe that makes it easy, but the same tactic can be used for personality traits too.
Instead of the old habit of glossing over their rudeness or impatience or arrogance, focus on it.
Again, work with what you’ve got: find the things that you dislike about your limerent object and make that the centre of your attention.
The goal is to retrain your brain—to break the association between your limerent object and reward, by making your contact time less enjoyable.
Go into every meeting with the mindset: this is a chance to practice my mental judo skills, rather than going in with the giddy mix of hope and uncertainty that is keeping you hooked.
One bonus of this approach is that it will probably make you less good company too. So, you’ll get a nice negative cycle going, where you’re concentrating on nitpicking their flaws and they stop wanting to spend time with you.
So, I’ve been a bit flippant, but the idea works.
You need to reframe the way you interact with your limerent object if you want to free yourself from obsession.
Disrupt the old dynamic of your contact time. Because that was reinforcing limerence. Make contact feel burdensome rather than arousing.
Break the subconscious link between them and reward.
If you have to have contact, use it, to rewrite what your limerent object means to your subconscious.
Now like many challenges in life: it doesn’t feel good in the moment, but it pays off in the long term when you free yourself from the obsession.
Threat = Capability x Intent
Capability is what they can do, Intent is what they want to do. Both are dynamic. New capabilities can be developed and Intent can turn on a dime.
Risk = Threat (LO) x Vulnerability (you) x Consequence
If any factor is zero, there is no risk.
Threat x Vulnerability is called “likelihood of exploitation.”
No Contact works because it separates the Threat from the Vulnerability.
In the field of radiation protection, there is a concept called ALARA:
As Low As Reasonably Achievable
Radiation exposure reduction uses Time, Distance, and Shielding to implement ALARA.
In an environment where you can’t avoid your LO, you may not be able to control Time or Distance so your best hope may lie in developing some type of Shielding.
L.E
Good comparison. As unneeded exposure to radiation is as damaging to the physical body as unneeded exposure to limerence is to the mind.
I wished I’d had a limerence lead vest back then. I closest I had was my leather waistcoat.
A limerence lead vest! What a fabulous concept.
We should all have one.
I need a 3x please..
Literally been reprimanded for staring at the reactor through that dingy yellow porthole; realizing the power there is mesmerizing.
Oh, poor you! 🫂
I feel I can resonate with your sentimentality although I might speculate ‘the reactor’ through a small, stained rosy window.
I think one mesmerizing effect of radiator/reactor lies on unknowns and one’s imaginations.
Based on my XLE, I know the mesmerizing power could not sustain, especially in an unavailable LE. Then the “radiation” made me almost “paralyzed”, constantly feeling out of control — literally my neural neurons were detectably pulsating all the time either at work or at home. The anxiety level fell off the map — might have led my body to the lymphoma.
If/when an available LE is reciprocated, partially or fully, I suspect imaginations would be replaced by realistic knowledge and some humdrum living, which would certainly disembody the radiator/reactor”.
The only solution to me is CREATIVITY (esp. artistic) — just the process/journey of creativity, accompanied/moderated by a certain dose of logic. By purposeful, creative living, one bakes one’s solid, luscious cake of infinite variety, and LE is just spectacular icing — forever loved but NOT indispensable.
Upon many wakeup in the morning, I also felt quite blue standing behind the “dingy yellow porthole” and watching that mysterious “radiator/reactor”….
Can one knock down the whole wall and replace it with a 🆕 🏵️ floor-🪟? 🤔
An error: it’s “ accompanied/monitored”.
Without the logic’s EYE 👁️ , some negative/unrestrained creative activities (ie, making fake news online or bombs in garage) could hurt oneself and others.
I have been working on this, with mixed results.
There is some skepticism among people here, including myself, as to whether this is a workable strategy. I truly don’t know. However, I can see some tangible progress.
Frankly, LO has so many negative qualities, it’s a wonder that I still feel anything positive for him at all.
LO usually calls me and invites me to Starbucks on Saturdays. Today, he did not. I feel an overwhelming sense of relief that he did not call. It’s true that I could always turn him down. I am too weak-willed to do that at this point, but the way I feel, now, when he did not call, is the opposite of the way I used to feel not so long ago.
I have to look back to where I was at maybe a year ago to realize that I have indeed made progress, but I am improving. I am hoping that LO is showing his house today and that it will sell soon.
He is getting a lot of action on his house–five or six showings in just a little over a week, which is the opposite of what happened when he had it listed last summer with a different agent. Hopefully the new agent’s marketing strategy will do the trick.
Last Friday I was telling my coworker (Eminem, for this discussion) — someone I’ve been working with for years — that I thought I had finally made a realization about LO, that she is just as dumb as any of the other young woman working here. Her appearance and her demeanor are misleading; she resembles people I’ve known in the past who were wicked intelligent.
So, LO comes in that morning and gives me a big thumbs up as soon as she sees me, and asks me how everything went on my shift. I told her that one machine was struggling to stay within parameters, and I call out to my coworker “Hey Eminem, what is wrong with #1?” She walks over and says, humorously, “IT’S FUCKED!” I then turn to LO and say “It’s fucked.” Without smiling or any hint of irony, she mumbles “In what way?” Without even thinking, not realizing in that moment how sarcastic I was going to come across, I reply “Oh, so you’d like more CONTEXT, would ya now?”. My coworker just shook her head and shooed me away, and gave LO the rest of the turnover.
As I was leaving, I saw LO through a window, and she was looking down at the floor and looking like she wanted to cry. Now I feel bad about what I said and did.
Are you taking out the frustration of your own LE on LO? Making her feeling bad or pushing her away as a way to pulling her in?
Didn’t you say that there is something farfetched between you and LO? Or is something still developing? What are barriers, conquerable or just implausible (superficially or substantially)?
Young people today are so puzzling…. 🤔
Every weekend it’s the same thing. All I do is think about LO. It’s starting to feel like the movie ‘Groundhog Day’. Same thing everyday. Sometimes it’s euphoric other times it’s completely crap, depending on how we interacted during the week. Most of the time it’s complete crap because even the good euphoric moments with him leave me extremely sad afterwards (all of these perceived moments of “connection” aren’t real). You’d think that’d be enough to motivate me to end this… But maybe I can try this.
Change/invent internal perspectives towards an unchanging external environment would make no Groundhog Day in any given day.
The other side of the coin — skillful excellence in arts/anything is achieved, solid connection in heart/mind is built through many Groundhog Days.
When feeling very sad, could you push yourself into any creativity or sweaty physical activity? These two almost always helped me turn my mild blues downside up. 🙂
(I was once “helplessly” in your shoe without a SO, which lasted eight years).
This strategy does work. It takes a bit to re-frame the mind into an alternate way of thinking about them, but eventually it does happen. Once it kicks in, it takes the mental load you’ve been carrying over them, right off.. Even in the event of having to be around them and/or in the vicinity. You can get to a place where you really don’t have to enjoy it. Which then re-enforces the desire to not want to be around them as much.
It may even bring you to a place of better friendship you can establish with them again, once you get all the infatuation out of the way. It helps you see them for who they really are. Once you are in that place, you will see how much time you wasted over nothing. You may still like them, but the dynamic you longed for with them will have disappeared or not matter as much.
I guess it works, especially since every human being has flaws and negative sides.
Just be aware that you‘ll end up with a biased and somewhat false negative view of your colleague/sister- in -law/ neighbor, replacing the biased and somewhat false positive view limerence gave you.
For myself, I’m not sure if it‘s always a good thing to replace one illusion for the other. There is no universal truth about the good or bad of people, and we can chose if we want to use the more positive or negative light. I agree that it helps to shine the negative light on an LO, but it has it’s cost. Me, I haven’t been able to turn the negative lamp on my LO off completely, which means I have given up on this friendship mostly. That‘s the cost and it might be worth it, still one has to be aware of it and that it is a kind of ruse. (Of course I don’t mean all the truly mean and egotistical LOs out there, I speak of the normal human beings who might be no more evil than you and me).
If vilifying LO is the only way out of drowning, so be it. But be aware that it involves a certain amount of untruth and unfairness. Also, it might change your overall take on people around you or the opposite sex for the negative- not much, but a bit. Every decision for negativity does a subtle shift . If we are conscious of that, then it‘s possible to avoid. But if we take the negativity ruse for the new truth, it’s a bit sad, in my opinion.
To Mila:
Thank you for bringing up such good points. I am intrigued by your comments about untruth and unfairness. It seems when emotions run high, we can vacillate between idealization and devaluation.
In my own situation, I am simply trying to be objective. LO is objectively irritable and flaky, at least with me. Perhaps he treats other folks better than he treats me, but I have no way of knowing.
Since he is irritable and flaky, it’s better if I remind myself of those things rather than the compliments he occasionally gives me. It also doesn’t hurt to remember that he follows something called Promethean Action, which is a right-wing organization that dabbles in conspiracy theories. This makes conversing about politics extremely problematic and I have learned to avoid it.
My opinion of LO goes lower when I listen to him rant about various things that I disagree with. I don’t think that’s being unfair. He’s made some bigoted comments that make my skin crawl.
LO has very little to recommend him objectively. The limerence is what makes him look shiny and appealing. He really isn’t all that appealing.
Hi Norma,
I recognize myself a bit in your recurring counting of LOs negative traits. I did that too,and my final verdict is still out if it was a good and helpful thing or not. One gets kind of obsessed with his bad sides, with every small proof that he‘s petty or neglectful, and it‘s even like a small triumph when another proof is coming along. It’s still a kind of obsession.
And in my case I can see now that it was up to me that I saw something in him that he wasn’t, and that he never pretended to be otherwise, so my disappointment in him is all my making. He‘s still a good person I guess. I just can’t get off the negative angle, I react automatically (trained) with a negative reaction whenever he contacts me. That’s a bit sad. Maybe it was necessary.
I think your LO also doesn’t pretend to be what he isn’t, right?
So you can take him or leave him as he is, basically. If it was that easy!
I‘m not your what to advise, to be honest. As I said, if he brings color and excitement in your life, why not enjoy the little interactions until he‘s gone. If he brings more pain than enjoyment, reduce the contact and focus on more pleasant people.
Maybe it would be good to be more proactive in your contact with him? Like, if you feel like it, ask him to go for coffee at Starbucks yourself, and if he keeps ranting about stuff that doesn’t interest you, just say you need to go after half an hour. And if you don’t feel like meeting, cancel meetings. Sometimes it feels better to be an active part in the contact, even if it means instigating it, feels better than being the passive part at his beck and call.
To Mila:
Thank you for your comments. LO never pretended to be anything he wasn’t, I did all of this to myself.
The more I get to know him, the less I like him. Which is not to say he isn’t a decent person, I believe he is, but we don’t have much in common.
Whatever I thought I saw in him was an illusion, and I do benefit from continually reminding myself of that fact.
I am also spending some time thinking about how much he exhausts me, which is also beneficial.
Dear Norma
Your comment reminded me of this song. In fact before I read it, my wife knew the latter version of the song but I knew the former. But your situation (restrains himself) with your LO reminded me of you and you and your “Anderson Cooper” look a like. Just before I got on my phone Momma was heating up leftovers and I asked her who sang the version she knew. What a coincidence. So I thought I’d share it.
We Just Disagree — Dave Mason
https://youtu.be/ERd0VjJYgpE?is=_u4LjxgjC93DDWXm
Billy Dean
https://youtu.be/bOwAQrvslOI?is=9fBkuJ2WiETDUiV6
To Adam:
You come up with the best songs!
I am only familiar with the Dave Mason version, which I remember very well from the 1970s.
Thank you for indulging me while my “exposure therapy” works its excruciatingly slow way through my system.
It always makes me giggle that this is his stage name. He CHOOSE to go by this name. It’s not his birth name. Never the less he’s written/sang some of the greatest when it comes to limerent songs of the day. This being quite a favorite of mine.
How Do I Stop Living You — Englebert Humperdink
https://youtu.be/pBFcZ6t_LU4?is=EKbN_I3l7949_l8G
To Adam:
Engelbert Humperdinck was the name of a nineteenth century German composer. Obviously the younger man took his name as a stage name, but I was momentarily confused. I knew of the composer before I knew of the singer.
And no, I wasn’t born in the nineteenth century.
To Mila:
I am still pondering your comments about untruthfulness and unfairness in relation to LO when trying to find fault. I can’t pretend that I have figured it all out.
However, your comments reminded me of the last time I saw LO. He had just gotten his car (Mercedes sedan) back from the repair shop following an accident where he was side-swiped by another driver. His car was in the shop for over three months due to it being a Mercedes, and having to be repaired a certain way with specific parts. Apparently it’s a lot more complicated than, say, repairing my Toyota.
Well, he is very unhappy with it. His car is a 2023. They changed the door handle in 2024, and no longer have any of the 2023 door handles. So they put the 2024 handles on, and they’re not a perfect fit. This caused a slight ripple in the driver’s door. He showed it to me, and I could not see it.
He kept fussing about the ripple, as well as other tiny defects. I remember thinking, it’s impossible to keep a car looking spotless. What a burden to constantly be fussing over these tiny imperfections. I was grateful that I don’t have more dealings with LO–he’d probably nitpick me to death.
Now, am I being unfair to him by feeling that way? I don’t think I am. The more tolerant we are, the easier we are to get along with. Someone who has exacting standards is going to be difficult.
Or maybe I am missing the point.
“Now, am I being unfair to him by feeling that way? I don’t think I am. The more tolerant we are, the easier we are to get along with. Someone who has exacting standards is going to be difficult.”
ND
I read your posts and I can’t help but see a lot of old MJ in your LO.
I too used to be very ocd about having super clean cars, a perfect looking house, inside and out, with very well kept landscaping and making sure it looked impeccable to everyone that would pass by. (In other words looking good outwardly, but interiorly falling apart.) I never enjoyed anything fully, I resented almost anyone who didn’t praise me for my well kept home. My marriage was really anything but a marriage. I was that nitpicky guy to my wife. Having those exacting standards that made everything difficult. Made her resent me. Deep down I was miserable.. It didn’t have to be like that.
It’s taken an unwanted divorce and years of being lonely without being able to fully connect with anyone I’d like to connect with, for me to realize I have reaped what I have sowed. That we sow the seeds of our own demise. Throw in some death, fallout with in-laws and my Fathers sickness all feels way too retributional, but I also try to see it is the cycle of life and a lot of these things are unavoidable. I think for me it just hits a little harder now because I have no significant other to talk to about it. Or even cry to. Which is probably also why a LE is an escape. Why sometimes my situation seems so much more sad than it should be. I despise thinking of my old ways and how none of those material things I tried to make perfect, never needed to be perfect. People were coming over to see me, my Wife, my Family. Not gawk at or worship my stupid perfectly trimmed round bushes or immaculate grass I wouldn’t even allow my own children to walk over or play on. (My Wife positively hated that)
I would never wish ill-will on your LO but it always sounds to me like he needs a reality check. Like something needs to hit home where he loses something (or everything) important to him. Then regret it later on, realizing that relationship is more important than having the nicest house and best kind of toys. We can’t take that crap with us when we leave. So what is the point?
I feel you have a good head on your shoulder about LO. It is not unfair for you to feel the way you do. If he ever moves away and moves on, you can try to remember the good times. There probably are some. But also like my ex, you know and remember all the reasons why it would never work between the two of you.
About 10 years ago, I listened to someone who was speaking at church about self improvement and the metaphor they used was green grass. As in, like do you know why that grass is so green at that house down the street? It’s because there’s fertilizer all over it. (As in manure) The grass is so green because there’s shit all over it.
I don’t think I’ve ever looked at perfect green grass (or yards) the same since. It makes absolute perfect sense. 💩
To MJ:
Thank you for sharing that story. I would never have guessed that you were once so nit-picky.
Reminds me of one of my neighbors. She has a beautiful cactus garden, and sometimes I offer to help her–just doing grunt work like holding a trash bag or picking up debris while she makes the executive decisions.
I have complimented her repeatedly on how nice it looks, and she always tells me the same thing. That she has OCD and it’s miserable to constantly be fussing over things that she thinks are imperfect, but look fine to me.
Having said that, I think her marriage is okay (?). On the other hand, LO has not managed to keep a long-term partner for more than a few years.
I don’t think my ex-husband was OCD, but he was very critical. He beat me down with years of constant complaints and ridicule.
I heard a funny story from one of my kids after he had divorced me and re-married. They were having dinner, and my ex put an empty plate with chicken bones in the sink. His new wife ripped him a new a**hole. I remember thinking, that really wouldn’t bother me at all. Looks like the shoe is on the other foot.
To MJ:
I wanted to add something. I live in an area that is chronically suffering from drought. Homeowners have been encouraged to install fake grass and are given attractive tax rebates if they do.
Many of them have complied. Their grass is always perfect.
Norma,
I think his exacting standards are down to one of three things, and you are in the better position to know which one is most likely:
1. Biology (some people are for example OCD and can’t help but be fastidious about tidiness)
2. Social conditioning; “keeping up with the Joneses”
3. Trying to compensate for some other lack in his life; like a defence behaviour or an attempt to assert “this is my identity”
Any intuitions about which of those sound most feasible?
Not sure if my mental OCD (not fastidious about tidiness or anything external) is biological or meticulously molded by my both perfection-driven parents, who wanted not just keeping up with but also doing better than the Joneses”! 🙄
I had Mrs. Addam’s genes but mistakenly landed in my Narc Mother’s womb 🙁 … Still, I innately began to break social “norms” at age of 4~5 when one knew no fear. Then I got physical, emotional, mental punishment inside and outside the home…. But luckily, I never became Norma’s LO sort and still wear socks with holes.
Without Stoic-like COO and current Stoic practices, my mental OCD might have got me into some serious troubles 🤞
To LaR:
I am not sure. LO talks a lot about needing his “aesthetic.” I assume that’s an OCD thing. He needs a big fancy house that looks a certain way, including, I am not kidding, using upholstery fabric on some of his walls. His whole life is decorating and landscaping.
Does he do it because he really enjoys it? Or does he feel he has to do it? Or is he compensating for something else?
I truly don’t know. I do know that I can barely keep up when he explains how various things work, like the oxygenation pump on his koi pond. I am completely out of my element, and can only imagine how exhausting it must be to live in his head.
Alain de Botton, “next time when you see a guy driving a Ferrari, pity him!” — POSITIVELY got loads of psychological issues behind him!
I never visited my cousin again in CA since 2007, because she would not allow kids to play on her perfectly green lawn.
I’m currently enjoying the 1964 TV series, “the Addams Family” considered “the most healthy family on American TV” by all psychologists. Every family member is so individualistically “weird” yet totally loved and accepted by each other, and who wouldn’t give a dame about what others think of them! It’s delicious fun and liberating! 🤩
“damn” not “dame” .
“deliciously fun and liberating”.
To Miss Snow:
Maybe you should have taken “Morticia” as your screen name?
I LOVED The Addams Family. I had the honor to meet John Astin once. He was very pleasant.
Norma 🏠,
My mind was too trained/molded by observation, analysis and logic to be like a Morticia ( a walking Buddha?) in Reality. Deep inside my soul, I was and want to be more like her and to have partners in her kind of “weird” living.
Lucky you to have met John Astin in person! His infatuation and devotion to Morticia is so delicious and touching! 🤩
To Miss Snow:
We could all do a lot worse than Gomez Addams.
Miss Norma 🏠 ,
Something in Gomez Addams reminds me of my father (when older)— optimistic, hospitable, generous, entertaining, funny, faithful to my unfaithful mother (co-dependent), still with her terrible OCD delighting on nitpicking and criticizing everything/everyone under the Sun (not me anymore, I wouldn’t allow it).
However, Father was sharp (never delusional), rational, and knew how to choose thoughts and behaviors that would/did benefit his mind/emotions. He liked to be a center of attention and praise in public, but Stoic enough not upset in private when without them.
His sudden passing triggered my XLE. Nowadays I evoke his spirit whenever I encountered a difficult situation and could push through and recover from pains mostly within 24 hours.
To Miss Snow:
I imagine that you miss your dad very much.
Actually, *I* miss him after reading your description.
Miss Norma 🏠 ,
You’d feel so secure and supported with my father, even when he tried to warn/caution you possible dangers, with his big bulging eyes. He was Stoic but very warm and funny, and always forgiving, even those who put him in a labor camp and Mom who caused the entire family’s exile in a harsh living condition probably beyond your imagination.
Father was such a spiritual torch guiding me, which is realized more after his passing and after my XLE. I’m content that I’m feeling like and becoming more of him.
My father would spiritually flatten your LO’s face if he dared to treat him like how he 90% mistreated you. No more Mr. Addams there!
To Miss Snow:
You are lucky to have had such a father.
He sounds like he was a great blessing.
To edit: “My father would spiritually and Verbally flatten your LO’s face….”
That’s what Father did to my LO#3 dating me at 22 (whose father is a cousin of my father). While the latter (alone with Father a whole night through), complained about me being “too emotional” (OCD/“LE” with him — non-limerent type) and nitpicked on my long-distance “LE” behaviors — wrote ‘too many affectionate letters’ to him….
My father verbally punched him back, “Stop now! I’ve calmly, patiently heard enough what you’re saying about my daughter and your dating problems. You considered it’s all her faults, while reflecting nothing wrong with what you said or did…. From now on, I’ll NOT allow you to ever get to my daughter again!” LO# wanted to defend, but father put his hand to LO3’s face 🫷🏼, “Enough, NO more argument! ”
Father told me what happened the next day and his reasons for totally rejecting LO#3; but it took another year of a total NC for me to internally, emotionally cut off him. Both Father and I never saw the Narc LO#3 again, but visited his kind parents and sweet older sister once when I was 29; the two families were still relatives.
Yes, I’m very lucky to have a very protective and wise father; otherwise, I might have spiritually died of Narc Mom’s chronic emotional/mental abuses, which had little power on the saintly, Stoic Father.
To Miss Snow:
May I ask how you reacted initially to your father’s actions? Were you pleased, or were you upset at first?
Correction: LO#3’s paternal grandfather is a cousin of my paternal grandfather.
His mother very proudly told my father and me that he married a military general’s daughter, while I’d never cared an ounce about anyone’s social/economical/popular position, NOT even once in my whole life! Curiosity/openness, wisdom, and psychological strength speak loudest to me.
The heat now 99F is boiling my brain, and I’m “allergic” to AC, so only a fan.
To Miss Snow:
Please try to stay cool and comfortable.
Norma,
Of course, I was upset first without understanding what went wrong with LO#3 (we were mostly long-distanced for the first year dating). I could not emotionally adopted Father’s decision for me, but somehow I trusted my Father’s mind. (Plus, LO#3 lived 2000 miles away, impossible to see him secretly. )
Father patiently explained to me, “You can NEVER trust anyone who claims s/he loves you but bad-mouth you behind you!… When I asked you what went wrong, you kept telling me about your faults, but he didn’t see anything wrong he said or did! That tells me what kind of person he is… Don’t trust anyone who cannot genuinely, fairly self-reflects/self-criticizes their own mistakes/wrongdoings.”
After leaving LO#3 (we were on a trip with him), I wanted to die (not seriously) and went into a bad depression. I was matched to other sweet, handsome young men, but not interested in any. Father understood my emotional struggle without ever criticizing or teasing me (he used to intellectually challenge or tease me a lot when I was a teen).
It took me a full year to mentally got rid of LO#3 (6 yrs older), who was somewhat attractive, macho, egotistical, confident, but definitely NOT gentle, feminine, emotional enough and even cold/cruel (when he got upset or things didn’t go his wished ways). He never shred a single tear in front of or behind me, considering himself “strong/tough”! 😏
LO#3 was the last man from COO I officially dated, NO more macho men! Later, all the men I dealt with appear gentle and feminine with “buckets of tears” ready to flow, which is so human and attractive to me…. 💖
Add: Father also said to me, “Based on his confession to me, I’m certainly he would treat you poorly in a marriage.” Father absolutely X-rayed LO#3’s bones through in one 4-hour chat with him!
Without moving much, my body is okay with this heat, only missing its workouts.
Hi Norma,
No, you aren’t unfair in saying that you cannot imagine being like that and also that you wouldn‘t want to live with someone like that. That’s an important thing to recognize!
It also helped me with my XLO.
But I also couldn’t imagine being like other people or wouldn’t want to live with them without judging them for it so hard. Dwelling on his negative treats so consistently and often and feeling a kind of little satisfaction when he proved my negative take right, that wasn’t fair. I don’t do it to other people. He doesn’t owe me anything to be like I would want him to be, so why spend a lot of time feeling resentful of him being like he is?
As Marcia said to me (in meaning, cannot remember the words) and would be a logical (if we wouldn’t know how illogical a limerent mind is):
If he‘s that horrible or boring or uncaring, why fancy this guy at all? What’s so great then?
For me, it felt like an unhealthy obsession to dwell on every little negative detail. It was the same coin as being obsessed with his marvelousness, only the other side.
But still, it was probably a big step out of limerence.
So don’t think I meant to judge you or tell you to lay off it. You do what you need to do and what helps you! It’s just sometimes interesting to see from the outside what I was going through (not exactly, because I guess my XLO is a bit nicer and less egotistical than yours, but not sure).
No, I think you know best what feels good and like healing for you.
And I think it’s probably the right thing for you to get out of the feeling of being a little mouse next to him whom he can yell at or neglect, and get into a feeling of equality and even superior.
Maybe you can even feel a bit of pity for him (but not in a „I want to help him“ way please!)
He sounds like someone who lets his mood being spoiled by unnecessary things.
To Mila:
Thank you for your thoughtful comments. You make some great points. I have conflicting feelings about my little “project,” but I do think it’s working overall.
I can’t seem to get rid of my limerence otherwise.
I saw LO briefly last night, and he was whining about having to change a lightbulb in a very high, awkward place above his garage.
I thought, “There is a perfect example of First World Problems.”
To me, dwelling (OCD) on LO’s positive or negative sides indicates that LE is NOT over yet. And it would be a catch-22 to use an Obsessive deprogram to get out of LE.
The true liberation of a LE is INDIFFERENCE, both to perceived “positive light” or “negative shadow” of LO.
If without any previous psychological baggage, LE is driven by pair-bonding DNA /a physical Glimmer; It’s impossible to use logic alone to uproot it. A total NC is the Only solution to me.
If with the past traumas/baggage, limerents would need self-exploratory, self-discovery and self-renewal to eventually remove limerence ROOTs once for all.
To Miss Snow:
I am not suggesting that I am remotely “over” LE. At this point, I am taking baby steps to try to make myself more comfortable.
LO said he might call me this morning to go to Starbucks. He did NOT call, and I felt an overwhelming sense of relief. Am I “over” LO? No, of course not, but it’s a baby step forward to be glad not to be going to Starbucks, as opposed to being disappointed, as I once would have been.
I have to take small wins where I find them. Otherwise, I fear I would get too discouraged. I move at a very slow pace.
Norma,
“but it’s a baby step forward to be glad not to be going to Starbucks, as opposed to being disappointed, as I once would have been.“
That’s indeed a mental BIG step moving forward! 👏
Eventually, you want to reach the point that Mila suggested: Actively decide what (not) to do with LO, not always let him sit on the driver’s seat!
I don’t know how you can put up with LO’s non-stop complaints. When my mother (a lot like your LO even two years prior to now) still did it every single time I saw her, I immediately responded, “you’re complaining again!” Then she’d shut up.
“Being over LE” was where Mila thought she was in, at one point…. 🙂
To Miss Snow:
Thank you for your comments.
I am just thrilled to be moving in the right direction.
Q: Whats the difference between a good paint job and a great paint job?
A: About 10 feet.
Look closely enough at anything and you’ll find something to criticize.
Good topic!
I can only speak about my situation, whether this works for other people, I don’t know. LC for me is just an LE management strategy. I have been doing it for over 2 years now. It has not eradicated my LE. I still see and interact with LO 3 days a week and the mere act of coexisting with her seems to keep the LE alive. Because of LC I can usually be in a place where the LE is a dull ache and manageable. But I can only control so much. There are days where LOs demeanor towards me is warmer or she does something positive and unexpected and that can cause a greater ache in reaction.
I practice a neutral professional relationship with LO. It’s the minimum relational baseline I am required to have with her. We only interact over necessary work matters and try to keep things very routine. I don’t chit chat with her. I don’t joke around with her. I certainly don’t ask her about her life or share anything about mine. I also have her hidden on any social media. I don’t seek out any info about her. I have basically removed her from my life other than what is necessary for work. For the most part she matches my energy though some days she does test the boundary by acting warmer. Other days she gets a bit annoyed with me. I just try to stay steady. I’m 100% sure she knows I am managing my emotions towards her.
As for the negative thing, I’ve known LO for 8 years. I am well aware of her negative qualities. I don’t think focusing on her negative qualities have mattered much in the long run. If she really had that bad of qualities she probably never would have become LO in the first place.
I am at a place these days where I just don’t enjoy LO. I recognize that all she really does is cause me pain and avoiding her personally has become easy. But, I wish she was out of my life completely. For me it’s going to take NC to rid myself of this for good. It has taken a while to conceive, but I have an out if I want to use it (out means firing LO from my employment) Still, knowing a potential ending is feasible is encouraging because the perpetuality of it all was eating away at me. I’m considering it so I can move on with my life and in some regards I suppose she can move on with hers too.
If I don’t practice LC with LO and I try to be warmer with her or even light friends, my mind goes into pursuit mode and that causes mind chaos for me which leads to all kinds of worse problems. LC certainly has worked to settle the chaos but the underlying romantic desire for LO still persists. NC I believe is the only true solution.
In my situation, LO is my boss. We are both married, so no chance of us ever getting together (I need to convince myself of this fact). Sometimes, I secretly wish LO was limerent for me but that would obviously cause problems similar to yours. Plus, I need my job. I’ll have to learn how to manage this. I need to be better with LC, as pretty much any interaction with him makes me terribly sad after we’re done. Mainly because I miss him but it makes absolutely no sense to me why. One way that I try to reduce that pain is by finding another coworker to chat with after talking with him. That seems to take the edge off.
This week was tough as we had an after work event where I was extremely close to him in proximity and there were group photos where we put our arms around each other like you would in a fun photo with everyone. I felt “warm and fuzzy” after that event and knew that those feelings wouldn’t last. Less than 24 hours later, I felt terrible for disappointing LO on a work matter.
I’m starting to get used to the good feelings while interacting and the deep pain later. I try to stay very professional so I hope he hasn’t caught on. Sometimes I think he can pickup on my liking him as well as my sadness but I’m not sure.
At this point, I need to work on doing my job well and try to either manage the sadness or push through it. I try to tell myself that no one knows my innermost thoughts but sometimes my emotions feel like a dead giveaway.
I like reading your comments because I can relate to your situation.
It’s time for me to start making friends and building real connections with others, as I tend to be pretty lonely which allows me too much time with my thoughts. Making friends at my age is tough, so that’s another thing I need to work on.
Best of luck Speedwagon. Hopefully, you won’t have to make that ultimate decision unless you’re sure she can get another job in her industry.
“I’m starting to get used to the good feelings while interacting and the deep pain later. I try to stay very professional so I hope he hasn’t caught on. Sometimes I think he can pickup on my liking him as well as my sadness but I’m not sure.”
Liamf
Unless you have disclosed something or made your interest way more obvious, he most likely isn’t suspecting anything. As limerents, we always want to believe LO is into us the way we are to them or even slightly. When chances are this is never the case. Perhaps use this mindset to help you disengage
with obsessive thoughts and hope that never happens. It’s a hard truth but it’s the real reality.
Once I realized this with my LO, the magnitude of my sorrow was immense and lasted almost a year, but it goes away at some point. Keep on the idea you need new friendships now. This will be very helpful in decreasing constant LO reverie.
Sorry to hear about your situation. You are on the other side of the coin from me but similar, yes. It took me a long time, a couple years, to figure out all my emotional patterns when it came to LO. And I tested them all. The thing is, nothing really brings actual peace, it’s just what brings the least turmoil. I have found bare minimum neutral professional boring boss interactions brings the least turmoil. And everytime I tested that with something else things got worse. But the times I have felt a little glimmer of peace are when LO had been gone on vacation for a couple weeks which is why total NC seems so attractive now.
I guess my advice would be to find a way to steer clear of LO as much as possible and when you have to interact just be professional. You are maybe in a bit tougher position because you want your boss to think highly of you so you don’t want to be too boring or off putting.
In the long run you might start thinking about a way to leave your current job or role if possible because having this linger on for years is exhausting.
Best wishes to you, I know how horrible it can be.
As long as the LO isn’t toxic I’m fine keeping open communication and waiting it out (limerence too does pass!) It can take a long, long time, but I’ve been able to have inappropriate feelings go away completely while keeping contact. My feelings for LO#2, for example, covered most of the 2010’s but disappeared during the pandemic. LO #2 is an international friend of the family and will stay with us for several weeks or months at a time (in fact as it happens he’s down the hall from me as I type this out). These days I find him super annoying but he was (still is) like an uncle to the kids so he’ll always have a home with us…
I’ve been struggling with limerence and LO#3 for 3.5 years. We used to work together but once I quit I made conscious effort to see him (and other former coworkers) about once a week. Just after Christmas I became severely depressed and stayed away (and in my room) for nearly two months… eventually LO#3 texted me (we’ve maybe exchanged 10 texts total). He told me he missed me and sent a lovely photo of himself celebrating his new car (which I immediately downloaded to cherish eternally). My response was not long or deep: “Beautiful car! You look so happy… Love it! Miss you too.”
As the weather turned I started feeling better and went out again, but I continued to avoid my old workplace because I was shameful about my mental health challenges. Instead I picked up a few casual hobbies, including semi-private yoga classes. Then about 6 weeks ago my yoga teacher started a class at a gym where I know LO#3 to have a membership. So I got a membership… for yoga!
Lately I’ve been able to see LO#3 a couple times a week and it’s wonderful. Last week at the gym (for yoga!) he offered to take my husband and I out on a bike ride. He had once offered something similar when I first met him and to my regret the darn limerence got in the way of me pursuing it.. but I later promised myself that if he ever did it again I wouldn’t let it go… And I’m not: I’m going to suggest a Saturday this month or early August (or as soon as LO#2 leaves!).
I think what makes the difference is that I have a clear and focused intention in my relationship with LO#3. I’ve mentioned it here before… LO#3 is 14 years my senior (and I’m approached 50). He’s in excellent physical health -looks amazing- but I continue to worry about his memory and, unless he’s keeping information from me, he’s going to grow old alone. I told him about 6 months into our relationship he could count on me to support him as a caregiving friend but, I think embarrassed, he totally brushed me off…
But then last year he asked if I would be willing to take him to get a colonoscopy if he ever decides to get one.
Babysteps!
My husband and I have a beautiful large rental property that we’re thinking of fully renovating and adding a couple attached efficiencies… who knows.. maybe one day I’ll wake up with both LO#2 and LO#3 in my house!
Song of the Day: “Those Were The Days” – Mary Hopkin (1968)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0jw63fzAzU
Not exactly in the theme of “Low Contact” but it seems appropriate in light of recent posts.
For some limerents, it may reflect the past. For other limerents, it’s pure fantasy.
It’s still a great song.
How about absence (NC) creating presence for rare case —
*****
Mirage
Amy Lowell
1874 –1925
How is it that, being gone, you fill my days,
And all the long nights are made glad by thee?
No loneliness is this, nor misery,
But great content that these should be the ways
Whereby the Fancy, dreaming as she strays,
Makes bright and present what she would would be.
And who shall say if the reality
Is not with dreams so pregnant. For delays
And hindrances may bar the wished-for end;
A thousand misconceptions may prevent
Our souls from coming near enough to blend;
Let me but think we have the same intent,
That each one needs to call the other, “friend!”
It may be vain illusion. I’m content.
To L.E.:
I dearly love that song. It was one of the first records I bought. I still have it.
I spoke with LO briefly the other night about how his house-selling is going.
He was describing something about one of the bedrooms. He said, “You know where the closet is?” And I said, “No, I have never been upstairs in your house. I have been asking you for over a year to give me a complete tour of the house.”
He said, “Well, if you play your cards right, I might have time next week.”
I snapped, “I don’t HAVE any cards! I can’t dazzle you with my sparkling personality or my hot body. Nothing I say or do has any effect on you!”
For once, he was speechless.
You should watch the movie, “The Housemaid” The husband in the movie is kind of a creep and lives in a one of a kind exotic mansion.
While I hope LO isn’t that creepy, there might be some similarities in personality. Maybe you and him could watch it together..
Just a thought..
To MJ:
I had not heard of this movie and had to look it up. LO is nothing like the husband, although the weird house sort of fits.
LO would never watch this movie with me. He dislikes horror/suspense.
I think it looks fabulous. And I love Amanda Seyfried and Sydney Sweeney.
Yeah the ending starts to get predictable, but you begin to see how he got his personality.
The movie in the end turned out better than I originally thought it would. I liked it.
So I think it’s fine that you snapped at him. (It’s long overdue. :))But … I doubt he knows why. He was probably confused, and while that shut him up in the moment, it didn’t help him understand your frustration. For example, the next time he rambles on about himself … say something. You can make it light and joke, “Hey, I’d like to get something in here about myself.” If he doesn’t get it and sucks the conversation back to himself, you can directly say that you don’t feel heard and would like to contribute more about yourself to the conversation. You’re don’t have to be accusatory or hostile; you’re just plainly telling him how you feel.
You often have to remind people repeatedly once you put up a boundary. He’s probably going to keep hogging the conversation in subsequent visits with you. And you can decide when your patience is reached in terms of times of how may times you have to remind him.Personally, I get tired of asking people after about 3 times. Because if you have to keep asking … they don’t want to make an effort to change the behavior.
To Marcia:
I don’t expect anything to change, I am just exasperated.
For example, more than a year ago, I asked him if he would give me another tour of his house, since the first one he gave me was abbreviated and was over three years ago. Plus, I got so overwhelmed, I am pretty sure that my brain fell out of my head and rolled away somewhere near the koi pond.
It’s probably still out there.
LO was agreeable, and said, “anytime.” I said, “What do you mean ‘anytime?’ You’re always busy!” He seemed surprised that I would say that, but what am I supposed to say? He is a world-class flake and rarely follows through on things.
He then said, “I’m doing the best I can, Norma.” But I don’t know if that’s actually true. if I were a client paying him $$$, I am sure he’d find the time.
Norma Desmond:
“I am just exasperated.”
But I’m saying that’s not really fair to him. As much as I don’t want to defend your LO, I have a feeling he has no idea how exasperated you are.
I am personally horrible with confrontation but if you don’t tell someone what they’re doing to upset you, it’s not really fair to be upset with them. I mean, should he know to share the conversation more? Yes. But … on the other hand (more than one thing can be true at once) … you’re never told him you’re bored with the topics or find some of it exhausting or wish he would ask about you.
You did bring up the Mother’s Day situation … and he gave you a very underwhelming answer. If he responded to me that way, I would have determined this was not someone I could count on for emotional support. I would take that expectation off the table. Doesn’t mean I would trash the whole friendship; I would just realize we were not going to be close friends. Maybe someone to do something with every now and then.
Now, an entirely different issue … you think there’s no point in bringing anything up that bothers you because he doesn’t have the ability to listen/change. If that’s the case, I usually back away from that friendship.
To Marcia:
Thank you for your response. All great points.
He’s obviously not reliable in many respects. I have been backing away from him for a while now. I joke that if you look up the word “disappointment” in the dictionary, there’s a picture of LO.
I used to want to discuss lots of issues with him. Now, when they pop into my mind, I shrug to myself and think, why bother?
Norma:
“Now, when they pop into my mind, I shrug to myself and think, why bother?”
Then you have to ask yourself why you’re hanging out with him at all. 🙂
I was watching this video on why affairs are so addictive. There’s a similarity to limerence because they’re about intermittent reinforcement, which is extremely powerful in the human brain. It’s not getting the prize; it’s the anticipation of it. That’s why NC is so effective. It begins to shut off the neurochemical buzz of anticipation. Slowly. It’s certainly not immediate. The limerent can still ruminate over what happened in the past, but taking away what could happen in the future is very effective. There’s a finality to it that even LC can’t deliver.
To Marcia:
I am becoming less and less interested in hanging out with him, which is all to the good.
I know that NC is effective in many cases–my ex-husband is a narcissist, and he had me in an Idealization/Devaluation Triangle with his new wife. Thankfully, I learned about this before he had a chance to do too much damage. He used to call me up every day to laugh at me and brag about the divorce. It finally occurred to me that I didn’t need to listen. By my leaving the triangle, he had to find somebody else to put in that spot so he could grind them under his shoe.
With LO, it’s a little different. LC seems to work for me because of his multiple personality issues. I am thrilled to be losing interest in him.
Also losing interest in his crazy house, which I didn’t think was possible.
They way you’re going to know you’re making improvment is when you turn him down to hang out or don’t feel the need to dissect his behavior. When your focus shifts to other things.
It just occurred to me that coming off of limerence is like coming down from a high fever.
I am sure that analogy has been made before, but it just now hit me that way.
If you’re not bottoming out, crying, feeling depressed and sad like I did for almost a year, that’s even better.
To MJ:
I have cried and felt depressed quite a bit.
Maybe not so much now. The bad feelings are less intense.
Which doesn’t mean they can’t worsen again.
I feel mostly discouraged and worn out. I put a lot of energy into LO.
Its crazy the emotional energy we pour into something, that we already know has no happy ending. I still have to remind myself of that from time to time. I remember missing LO when she would be out of the office or take days off. I would be sad, yet almost relieved at the same time. I would always get so tense and nervous around her, so her absence in a way made my day easier emotionally.
For you I guess you’ll be dealing with those emotions till he moves. After that, it might feel even more sad for awhile, but also a weight lifting off your shoulder.
To MJ:
I can certainly identify with your comments. I have noticed that I am relieved when a meet-up with LO does not happen, and I think it’s for the exact reasons you mentioned.
I will get through it eventually. You have been a great blessing and a great help to me.
You’re welcome ND. Glad to help anytime..
Brother
I feel you. LO gave me a tranquility no one else could. I remember when it was possible she was sick with Covid and I mailed a card with my best wishes to her.
I’m not in the best place Brother. And her presence makes me feel safe. I did the worst and looked up her Facebook. It’s been over a year since I faltered. Her eyes Brother, they’re so beautiful. I’ll stop cause Miss Snow will be by.
Brother I wish all the vodka in the world could fix me. To Miss Snow I did 12 days sober up till today.
“I’m not in the best place Brother. And her presence makes me feel safe.”
Adam
Sorry you’re not in a good place my friend. But don’t go beating yourself up over this. Unless you have some vicious plan to go behind your Wife and family and try to meet up with her, then just checking up on her isn’t all that big of a deal. At least in my opinion it isn’t. Then again I’m the one here who doesn’t have a Wife to answer to and looking at other Women is a main reason why.
I get why she makes you feel safe. It’s all in the way she made you feel when you guys worked together and you look fondly upon it, versus where you are at now. I remember how ecstatic LO made me feel but I also remember how I bottomed out often when things went south. I hated that roller coaster of emotions. I totally get it about the eyes though. I easily could get lost in LOs eyes if she’d have let me. Next to her stunning long blonde hair, its definitely one of her best features. (Then again what isn’t her best feature? 🤔)
I go through those phases too now and then.
Just the other day, I drove past our old building and saw the window shade to LOs office was up. I know she doesn’t work there now but it brought back a flood of memories. I remembered her looking out it in the winter time to remote start her car. I remembered her looking out it during a thunderstorm. I remember looking in it one day and seeing adorable her at her cubicle, talking on her work phone. These things happen. These human Angels are guilty pleasures. Yet at the same time, that was a time of deep deep emotion, regret and sorrow for myself because I never got anything off the ground with her. Consider yourself lucky because you at least established somewhat of a friendship with LO.
I’m guessing your work situation is going ok now. At least I hope it is. I can’t really complain about mine either. Work is about the best thing I have going for me. So I put that on top of my gratitude list.
I haven’t seen LO nor looked her up lately, but the last time I did, she had posted she was working a lot again. Primarily dayshift I believe because I haven’t seen her around on nights. I’m leaving it at that.
Vodka isn’t the answer to your issues either. Trust me. It’s just a band aid on the problem. Temporarily yes I get it, but you’ve made progress man. You don’t want to be deceiving to Momma again do you? About all I can tell you is focus on what you know is more important and be grateful for what you have. Drifting through life can become catastrophic.
(I can tell you all about it because I’ve been rebuilding from catastrophe since 2011.) Remember purposeful living.
I’ve got your back man.
Hope this helps you a little. Keep in touch..
🤜🏻🤛🏻
🎩 🥃 ,
Congratulations to your 12 day sobriety! 🎉 🫂! Keep going, I’m watching, and cheering up for your every step 💪 Your LO would be cheering up for you, too!
Adam, Adam, you bunch (with 🎩 🦎 and others likewise) of hopeless romantics! If your LO’s eyes could truly bring you a sense of “safety”, like Saint Mary to many Christians or Catholics, then I don’t see an issue there. As long as there is no contact of any kind, no direct “harms” would be done. However, is Mamma okay with it? Does such a fond/LE memory affect your daily life and devotion to Mamma?
I didn’t grow up under any religion or Romanticism but the Stoic-like culture and communism brainwash, so it’s very hard for me (also I don’t have a man’s DNA) to imagine and comprehend how Westerners, especially men, could so “crazily” idolize or idealize external beautifies, such as one’ eyes, throughout the history over 5000 years! How many poems, songs, music, paintings, novels have devoted to those bewitching or mesmerizing beauties and how many heroes as well as criminals have tried to capture/possess those beauties, as if their very survival depended on a pair of eyes! 😵💫
But as we’ve learned from this site, LO’s eyes don’t always bring one a sense of safety or peace, it’s mostly opposite! It’s not LO’s physical eyes, but what subjectively coming out of the eyes that stir up Limerents’ nerves/mind/soul, which if not managed well, would bring them into the altered state of mind and then a possible “addiction”. It’s not objective aesthetic of LO’s eyes, but Limerents’ perceptions or imagination out of their gaze that either led liemrents to their peace or agitation or something in between, mostly unstable and uncertain.
My argument still lies on cultivating the strong sense of security and peace from one’s within, not ever relying on any external source. Our cultures (across the world) and family background may have given us insecurity and shortage of love/care, and we can’t change our personal history. But, we are in charge of our body, mind and soul today and tomorrow, we need to ensure our own wellbeing first, which then in turn could possibly bring others — your SO or MBP, joys and peace.
Adam, as we discussed before, Stoicism could help us gradually achieve the above goals (certainly very challenging in a short or long term). Can you use some of its principles to deal with your current situation of “not in the best place”?
Please feel free to unload your stress, only if you wish.
Are you having “Yellow Cold”?
https://youtu.be/z6SAqLONnSc?si=le3qNTmiiAUT_azx
To those who are captured by a pair of eyes 👀 — 😓
https://youtu.be/RApoMAklTvM?si=jvfR4FD0SLpAcrQJ — “I can see you”.
Dear Adam:
I totally understand about LO making you feel safe. I used to feel the same way. But it’s an illusion.
You’re making yourself feel safe.
Sending you love and hugs.
Brother
It is the job. Momma has a neck surgery scheduled Aug 11th that scheduled through state paid insurance to make sure she doesn’t die from a random injury. I feel like Jeff Goldblum in The Fly. Just put the damn shotgun to my head. And much to Miss Snow’s chargin I go to to the bottle. LO is my calming and yet diebiliting sanctuary.
It is the job. But money is money. I’ve worked jobs that have taxed me so this is no different. It is what it is. But I gotta look out for Momma so she can get this surgery. And get it paid. She needs it’s since New Years when she fell and could have died. I do love her Brother.
We had a really bad storm that which cut out power on the 4th for over 48 hours. All our food is rotten so I don’t know. Tree limbs are still everyone and I’m trying.
Brother I’m grateful you are here. And Miss Snow and Miss Noma. I’ll work through this. Once Momma is taken care of I can move on to a better place secularly.
Dear Adam:
Please hang in there.
Don’t forget to breathe.
🎩 🥃,
“And much to Miss Snow’s chargin I go to to the bottle. “
What does “chargin” mean here? You’ve reached the bottle again? 🫣
“LO is my calming and yet diebiliting sanctuary.”
What’s “diebiliting”? Do you mean, “debilitating”? Are you saying that LO is both a cause and solution of your stresses? If so, would you please explain, in what specific ways/areas she calms you? And with your LE pain, how/why is she “diebiliting sanctuary”?
In my XLE, ET was a means for me to deal with my grief (of losing Father) and cptsd, but he simultaneously causing my LE pain; the ratio was like first 90:10 and late 60:40 (only realized in hindsight). COO and Stoicism helped me “better” manage the stresses, compared to some cases here.
All LOs, mostly inadvertently, have brought dualistic effects on limerents, only differ in ratio of positive vs. negative. Norma’s LO is 10:90, based on her reports. Using or relying on LO to dissolve one’s LE is probably like adding oil, even just drips, to the LE ember.
Based on DrL’s LE chart, LO can be a merry solution ONLY when s/he can reciprocate Limerents’ mind/heart, in some degrees (>>70~80%?), or realistically interact with limerents, so the latter could get to know their authentic LO, which will break the LE spell, which does not guarantee a happy relationship development, but it can at least lead to a “new” LE free, logic-awakening path for liemrents to tread on or leap… 🪽 🪽
For Mamma’s incoming surgery, I know how nerve-raking it could be (I had my life/death one on 2020, and a huge one last 7/17). I’m sure you’ve already asked and talked through with her doctors. The more you know about the procedure and mentally prepare (apply Stoicism — what’s in or out of your control…) for all possibilities, the less nervous you’d feel before 8/11. I’ll pray for her and you 📿 all the way through!
🫂
🎩 🥃,
I spent another hour and finally found this touching short film for you and all LE affected husband/SO —
“By acting like a man in love, he became a man in love again” — actions lead mind and heart!
https://youtu.be/fADHa-fCo4Y?si=TOvOPxsyTL1wgUpw — Isabel Coixet, Bastille, Paris Je t’aime English Subtitles HD
GET the State health INSURANCE ASAP! That’s the lifeline support for not just you, but your entire family! I didn’t know you’re this much irresponsible! 😱
Think of it: if you get seriously ill with your heart or any other parts, what burden would that bring to Mamma and your sons? How can you care for Mamma then? Do you think your health is just ALONE for yourself? The same principle goes for your bottles — you can’t even drive due to the drinking, which means that if there is any emergency, you’d depend on others, your sons or neighbors, to help out.
You call yourself a responsible, caring, and loving husband?! Then act like one ⛓️💥🥃 🔨 !
You don’t have to mind whatever I say here, it’s none of my business. But I can stop talking with you now, do whatever you wish… Best of luck! 🤞
“It is the job. Momma has a neck surgery scheduled Aug 11th”
Adam
Forget about my comments up there Brother. I had no clue. Matter of fact, I never have a clue. We all have our stressors. It appears you have many on your plate and I get how all that can affect your mentality. You reach for what you know works, to get you through it. Really the only question you have to ask yourself is, are things getting better? Sometimes it seems it’s all happening slower than a snails pace.
Over the years I’ve had to decrease and/or eliminate all that brought me down. For me it got to a point where I began to despise everything I was doing and went through fazes of incredible self hate. I still constantly down-talk myself over all my bad choices. Calling myself every rotten name in the book. Even Marcia has noticed this about my posts. I’m very negative and I know it. If God is the master who is charge of repaying people, I’m definitely a poster child for it.. Is this doing me any good? Most would probably say no, yet I still think otherwise. Because as an only child, I’m the one who is in charge of only myself. I’ve never had a Brother or Sister to depend on or be an example to. It’s always been about me. Which probably explains how I learned to be a very selfish human.
So now I feel the need to be my own coach and constantly be critical of how I navigate choices. Critical of every move. I have to keep reminding myself I didn’t get here by being a saint. And if I keep thinking like I did before, then that is definitely insanity in it’s purest form and I will go nowhere fast if I think it’s a good method for making progress.
I think many of us are our own worst critics. I look around at my current surroundings now and they’re really not all that bad. I have made progress since my divorce. It’s taken years and I have mother f@%&×d myself the whole time, but now I have nobody to share it with. For me it’s time to start changing that. It feels to me like sometimes I gave up my man card when I divorced and now I have this sign above me that only Women can see and it says, “avoid this man at all cost” Of course it isn’t true, but it feels like it sometimes.
I can write here all day drinking won’t help you or make it all go away. I can tell you to pray pray pray and yes that is a good thing to do, but never think something to materialize the way you want it through your prayer or expect it the way in which you think is best. My belief is God is a comedian and loves changing the channel when we least expect it. It’s a way of keeping us on our toes to see if we’ll make a better choice this time.
You have to look at yourself now and ask if what you’re doing is going to make things better in the long run. I read your story and I can sympathize because that is a lot to be dealing with. But just throw the rotten food out already. Pick up the tree limbs one at a time because if you don’t, nobody else probably will either. And yes of course do keep going to work. Momma is worried about you and yes she should be. But you are doing the right thing every day being a provider. So she can get the surgery she needs. You do this because you do love her. You are the Man of the house. Till death do you part.
You’ve got this.. Peace Brother. Always..
🤜🏻🤛🏻
My brain hurts, heart hurts, body hurts. . .
There’s nothing wrong with him checking on her, but finally – *finally* – he’d stopped talking about her in his sleep. In the last 5 days he has not only called me that while snuggled to my side, talking has returned, and this was after an extremely long talk we had about intimacy. Intimacy is ok unless I want to have sex, then honestly at this point as stupid as it sounds; I feel like Bella trying to trick Edward in Eclipse (book not movie).
All I did was check in, ask if things were ok, slidebacks anything like that. and I get whammied a couple days later.
I cannot even say/hear the name, it physically makes me ill when I hear it, it makes me sad.
I’m having a C spine ACDF, 1 night in the hospital – essentially my spine from C1 to L3 looks like a rocky mountain road, with more switchbacks..
I have told him he doesn’t have to suffer at this job until my surgery, he can find a different one and we will be ok. We have reliable transportation.
He has to remember he needs his state insurance also for his heart. I’ve tried to get him to go to the chiropractor as they cover it. I don’t like him working this job, it hurts him and frankly makes him cranky since there’s no pure pattern to his sleep, which in turn isn’t good for his heart.
I can’t tell him, he thinks I’m just being ‘a mom’. Help me, please!
Mama-A
I can’t remember all the reply things.
Mama-A,
It’s nice to hear from you directly, welcome back here to unload your stresses anytime you feel like it.
I’m so sorry to hear that your head, heart, and body all hurt, do you have effective painkillers?
I’m pleased to hear that Adam has stopped calling LO’s name during his sleep, that’s a huge psychological step moving forward! Whenever physically able, please keep caring, intimate chitchats/talks with him, it psychologically repairs old and builds new rapports, and create new affectionate love.
Also, verbal intimacy could be sexier than physical one in different ways, because it’s at a mental and soulful level and lasts much longer. I watched how my Father did with Mother (who cheated on Dad several times). Up to this day, I still don’t understand how he had saintly forgiven her repeatedly.
Your surgery sounds quite big but necessary to reduce/eliminate your back and head pains, how long is it going to take? Have your doctors clearly explained in layman’s language to you about what’s going to happen for the entire procedure in every step? Don’t be afraid to ask them about all sorts of possibilities, so you both can be well informed, mentally prepared in advance, and thus not feel too nervous before the day. For me, unknowns made me nervous or paranoid, so I always wanted to know all possibilities (I grew up with a surgeon Mom. )
Staying at the hospital for one night doesn’t sound so bad, but ask to stay longer if you don’t feel ready to go home. With nurses around, the care for recovery is much easier.
Adam’s night job sounds awful, making his mind and body in a worse shape. Not having state insurance is purely FOOLISH, jeopardizing his own health or your family’s already strained financial situation. I’ll talk with him or give him a virtual “reprimand”. (Wish I could do it in reality.)
Mama-A, take a very good care of yourself now, don’t worry about any other stuff in the entire world. Your health and your life with Adam are the most important to you both!
I’ll pray for your surgery and a speed recovery.
❄️
To Mama:
Thank you for posting. I hope your surgery goes swimmingly and that you get relief from your pain.
Snow. . .
I do know what to expect with the ACDF. While surgical tech has improved and advances made, I took care of my dad when he had his 30 years ago. Back then they’d pull plugs out of your pelvis and use those to fuse it. He walked like he’d had a lead projectile into the buttocks.
I don’t take pain meds unless it is absolutely necessary.
He had stopped, it’s started back up is what I’m saying.
Now he’s just being mean, ugly, harsh, and disrespectful. And he certainly just told me what he thinks of me. In Vino Veritas. I do not like being called ‘mommy’ our boys never did it, and when he says it I feel creepy. Not because of him, just because that’s how I am. I’ve asked/begged/demanded to not be called that, so he flat out said ok what if I just called you ******* (her name).
Thank you Norma, I keep telling him we *are not* going to lose our insurance if he changes jobs. Right now, I’m scouring the internet for possibilities for him. I know him well enough to at least weed it down. . .
Little jabs and such are so exhausting. but anyway, I’ll come back as I can.
Mama-A
Mama-A,
Sorry about my previous post, in which I misunderstood you literally due to my ESL level.
Based on Adam’s posts here, I can’t figure out what’s got held of his mind and behaviors recently, perhaps his tough job, lack of sleep, drinking, LE relapse, or worries for your coming surgery? His treatments of addressing you indeed sounds mean and hurtful, they’re unacceptable! I feel so sorry for you that he brought/dragged LO into your spousal interaction.
I was never in your shoe, nor a limerent with a SO. Thus, it’s really hard for me to have visceral comprehension of your experiences (from the both sides). Have you thought of joining DrL’s private group for partners of liemrents? I think they could truly empathize your sufferings and provide a lot of practical advice.
Here is the link: http://skool.com/survivingpartnerlimerence — Surviving Partner limerence.
It’s a relief to hear that you are familiar with ACDF procedure, now I’m more nervous than you until you successfully finish it. I’m also glad to hear that you have a State family health insurance, which is vitally important to everyone in the U.S.
Mama-A, try to stay calm as much as possible before your surgery, especially you don’t even take painkillers. Do you have close friends nearby to talk about your personal life and concerns?
Again, please take a very good care of yourself, FIRST!
All I can say is that it’s 74 who knew this could happen to you again.Only now , there’s no hope for the future
Either 74 was a “prophet” or saw a root of your LE.
Sorry that currently you can’t perceive any hope for the future; but the future remains open in ways that the present mind cannot fully predict. “You”, I and all change in unpredictable ways, in the eternal present.
“I am only now.”
Momma is real mad at me. I cut myself until I bled. Momma got mad at me and took the knife from me and threatened to take me In.
Dear Adam,
I am so sorry to hear this.
Please get the help that you need.
Momma cares for you, we here on LwL care for you.
Adam,
I’m sorry to hear about the state of your being… I agree that you need to get an urgent help asap.
Perhaps you can speak with DrL directly (email him) to find out how you could manage your recent LE relapse ?
If it’s due to exhaustion of the new job or lack of sleep, then quit this one. It’s not worth it to damage/ruin your family life.
Please do something for yourself and Mama!
Dear Adam:
Please don’t do anything self-destructive.
Get some help, please. I am sending you love and hugs.
I’m ok. I think. Momma cleaned up my wounds all the while lecturing me. (She knows self harm from her own past.) I have 6 cuts on left hand, trying to make it bleed. And then 30 minutes later I went to the kitchen to eat a PB sandwich and did it again with my right hand. I’ve never done this before. But Momma has all eyes on knives and me. I never thought I’d self harm myself besides drinking.
Maybe Brothers LO can make some menudo and homemade tortillas. But no Corona. It’s Negro Modelo and nothing less. Certainty not tequila.
Dear Adam, please take care of yourself.
Get professional help if you need it.
Sending you hugs and strength.
Adam, promise me something. Promise you will call 988 and talk to the person who answers before you hurt yourself again.
My step-brother didn’t make the call. He turned a temporary problem into a permanent problem.
When you are in that mindset, it is temporary. You just have to get through that moment. 988 is wonderful! Call them!
Actually does your LO cook chitlins? With some hot sauce. And pork rinds on the side? Sweet tea is the only southern thing i do get.
Tbh I don’t think she cooks much at all. She’s always posting about all her favorite foodie hot spots she goes to. She appears to really like gourmet hamburgers. Go figure.
Thanks to all of LwL for your kind words and looking out for my well being.
I talked to my mother today with Momma on the phone too. About think I made my mother almost cry telling about the cutting. Maybe Momma will post and talk more about it. I think I honestly scared my Mother to death.
Momma is now looking online for some jobs now that I have reliable transportation. I finally slept, Momma said about 6-7 hours after being awake for over 48 hours.
Brother, Momma and I fought more in the last 48 hours than ever in going on 28 years of marriage. She calls it healthy back and forth. And I felt like an a$$hole. But we are the same bed together and she’s trying to find me better work.
Brother I don’t even remember trying to cut my wrists but Momma showed me the scars. She was very unhappy with me. I don’t want to kill myself but I want out of this situation. She is better for me than I deserve. Like Miss Snow mentioned I could be better to her. I have to concentrate on her upcoming surgery. She is my whole life Brother.
Miss Snow you can be mad at me. I’m sure I deserve it. I appreciate your input as a non Westerner. I do listen. Whether I heed it or not. So thank you.
Dear Adam:
Please continue taking care of yourself.
You and your dear family are on my mind.
I’m praying for you, Adam!
Well wish me luck. At 9am I got a job interview that promises to look much better than the hellhole of a job I’m in now. I’ll let y’all know how it turns out.
Adam,
Wishing you the best of luck.
Please do keep us posted.
Oh, dear Adam, please update us as soon as you can.
Keeping my fingers crossed for the best possible outcome for you and your dear family,
Good luck my friend. I hope it goes well.
I finally got through all the online crap (what happened to paper applications and actually talking to people?) and AI, with Momma’s help, and I finally got the job. My first day is Tuesday the 21st. So I’m excited and relieved. And thankful I got time to switch up my sleep too. As it’s 4:30 am and I’m wide awake.
Oh that’s fantastic! Congratulations Adam!
Oh, Adam, that’s so good to hear!
Have you quit the other one already?