Here’s a recent Q&A I did for the channel Mental Wealth.
All things limerence discussed and analysed.
Enjoy!
Reader Interactions
Comments
Mariesays
I “fell in love” with my therapist.
At first I considered it transference (I knew of the phenomenon, as it is quite common), in fact, that is how I disclosed my feelings early on to him (when I summoned all my available courage), by telling him I had transference for him—as a person, not just as my therapist. As time progressed, my feelings definitely deepened to the point of limerence.
I was not aware of the concept of behavioral addiction to another person, and have considered that I genuinely have loved my therapist as a person. This has been reinforced by the fact that my therapist was unaware of limerence himself. In my enthusiasm, I wanted to get to know him, so most of our therapy sessions were very animated and interesting conversations, with me largely taking the lead and drawing him out. It was very obvious that he enjoyed this almost role reversal, which of course, reinforced my limerence.
I have never felt he manipulated me in any way. Rather, he was completely inexperienced in dealing with this phenomenon, although, and to his credit, I am fairly certain he consulted a colleague or supervisor at some point to understand what was happening in our sessions and to him personally. In one session, he did state to me that I was in love with the “idea of him” rather than as a person. I disputed this because I did know quite a bit more about him personally than the average client. There was much information about him online; he was a published author and we were able to discuss his rather complicated concepts that I have been genuinely interested in and could grasp even as a lay person. I knew a lot about his personal life.
He didn’t actively contradict me so I believe he also was experiencing some degree of limerence for me, which, as things deepened for me and I became entrapped in my emotional addiction, eventually caused me to beg him to tell me if he felt some reciprocal feeling. At least then I would know if I was perceiving things correctly, or whether it was all in my imagination.
Because he could never really give me a definitive answer either way, I concluded he was indeed experiencing some degree of reciprocal limerence, so along with the uncertainty, things further enflamed for me. I believe that the fact that he was my therapist was the primary complicating factor. Likely he felt he could not divulge his attraction to me, as it is generally discouraged, and also realized it could put him in a precarious position professionally. Perhaps it would only inflame any limerence of his own if he admitted to it. Maybe he also liked me enough not to want to hurt me, hoping to let me down gently at some point. The third complication was that he was in a committed relationship, and he made no secret of it. He often referred to his girlfriend in conversations. At times, I wondered if it was to discourage me, a gentle reminder perhaps, although I think before he realized the extent of my feelings, he talked of her quite innocently because she was an important factor in his life. In the more intense stages of limerence, it was a painful reminder that he wasn’t really available, a reminder I generally ignored, in large part because he continued to seem interested in me.
I believe he also found me physically attractive, possibly sexually desirable despite a large age gap, by some of his spontaneous comments (or I was hoping that’s what his comments meant). I had several crises where I told him I couldn’t come back…instinctively I knew this was a losing proposition that could cost me my sanity. But I could not stay away. I have “bipolar disorder 2,” a predominant tendency for depression (though capable of hypomania under certain physical or emotional stressors) but have been stable for decades. I have learned over the years how to understand how I am affected, to know the symptoms, triggers and red flags, and to act to prevent dysfunction. Ironically, utilizing therapy has been a go-to in times of jeopardy. At any rate, after three attempts to break from him, and deepening alarming plunges from high to low, which indeed were not essentially bipolar mood swings as Dr. Bellamy points out, but rather the neuropsychology of addiction (yet corresponding logical emotions in my mind since I saw the possibilities of a relationship, but also the daunting impediments, therefore the joy and the sadness—not simply neurochemical mood swings as I would still argue) I did successfully tell him in person after my last session that I could no longer continue. Because “I liked him too much.” No doubt, by this time, he totally got it. And he probably saw this as the eventual end as well, but I do believe he has been affected.
At the very least, I think it must be valuable learning for him–a therapist with only a few years under his belt, and with no previous experience or even knowledge of limerence. It was the only solution for all three reasons: 1.he was my therapist. 2. It may or may not be a genuine love rather than simply limerence, but leaving is the only way to find know what direction it might take. And, 3. because he is in a committed relationship, although he did tell me he was insecure in it (! imagine a therapist admitting that to his client—I was rather incredulous, and again, it signaled to me that there could be a chance for “us.”), the only way he can assess whether he is satisfied enough in his relationship with his girlfriend is if I am essentially out of the picture and not an influence. If there were any hope for a true love relationship between him and me, it would be critical for both of us to know whether or not he would stay with his girlfriend. So all in all, leaving therapy was the only solution, heartbreaking as it has been.
I do feel I could love him “outside” of therapy, but that could only be determined if we could see one another, which I have told him I would like to do, starting out as friends. I have made my feelings very clear, that I do feel a love of some kind for him, but I have let go of a need for a specific outcome. I truly want him to be happy, not conflicted or compromised. So both of us need time and space.
I would be lying if I said I didn’t still have hope. But I believe that I can live with the situation as it is now. Although this has been the sweetest dream, I can’t live in an imaginary world indefinitely. Several months has been enough of a ride. I’m lucky I’m not someone inclined to endure torture indefinitely, but am driven to find resolution when in enough distress (including thinking I could have a heart attack!)
I do not intend to go back for additional reason that I no longer feel that I can be simply a “client”since I never actually fit the role very well! I originally went to see him as a buffer against the stress of what is a terrible political situation to me, to able to express my fears and feel some protection and given reminders of how to navigate/enjoy life in perilous times. I never anticipated this “love bomb” of limerence happening, but at the same time, I deliberately wanted to be in therapy with a man, because I also felt a need to learn better to communicate successfully with the opposite sex. (There may have been a minor element of self-setup, though it if true, it was not conscious, intentional, nor a manipulation). I’d always felt unable to freely do that, to be fully myself with a man in past experiences. I certainly got what I wanted in that respect, and maybe all that “practice” with him will be useful, as my hesitancy to hang back and hide myself in opposite sex relationships (and conversely be too “forward” as I have thought) may have been overcome in significant measure! And therapy could also be considered successful in that it has been an almost complete distraction from the ever-increasing anxiety over the political scene. Although with no longer seeing my therapist, I may need another one. Not a bad idea either, as he advised as well, to keep negotiating my way through the limerence and not relapsing.
I do have to add that when I realized I was in crisis state because of my therapist, I did consult twice with an old therapist! Consulting a therapist about your therapist, what could be more ironic!
I also want to mention that when I did virtually beg my therapist for his answer as to whether or not he had personal feelings for me, and that I was in crisis, he recommended the possibility that I may need a different therapist. He was always professional in my opinion; he never crossed boundaries, as we both verbally emphasized clear respect for in our theraputic context, and I cannot fault him for his confusion due to his own unanticipated feelings.
And yes, I have never felt so alive with another person as I have with him. Impossible to overstate how powerful this experience has been. I am following the path as it leads me, aligned with my principles, and armed with this most serendipitously and providentially discovered information on a phenomenon I previously did not know existed. This knowledge has restored my confidence that I am indeed strong and sane. It has given me compassion toward my therapist, and has allowed me to let go. Where it may lead, I am not yet certain. Only time will tell, but nonetheless, I feel I have returned to myself in good measure, a self I have been pretty happy with from the start. My heart doesn’t hurt quite so much now.I feel I did the best thing not only for myself, for both of us, and I live in my faith that having told him my truth, it can manifest in nothing but good in the long run for both of us. No matter what the outcome.
Thank you if you have managed to plow your way through this very lengthy comment. It helps to reiterate my reasoning to myself, and maybe it will help someone else to understand their perplexing situation.
I am not sure I can put anything articulate together to reply to you, but I did want to acknowledge your heartfelt words and your very interesting story.
I too find it helpful to write things down. I am very slow to process things and I need to go over them repeatedly.
I am glad you are making so much progress and I hope you continue to do so.
I did expect to fall apart, and felt horrible for a very brief time. I will make a visit to my old therapist just for support in my decision, to help keep my resolve. But apparently, thank God, the peace of making a painful but necessary decision has overridden all else. So I’m going with it.
I’d be lying if I said I didn’t still hope we would meet up again somehow or other, could stay in touch, and try out friendship, but I’m not obsessing, agonizing or pining.
And I do miss him when I think of him, as is to be expected.
Welcome to this forum, and thank you so much for articulating so clearly your story.
I have experienced (with the -ed part somewhat in question) similar issues, and appreciate the renewed discussion of this topic. Up to now, I have been focussing on a different aspect of my limerent experience, but plan to return to this topic within the next few weeks.
Thank you for your reply.
Actually, the link you quoted was the very first blog I read when I became aware of the phenomenon of limerence. Yes, it certainly was excellent.
Interestingly enough, I thought that I would fall apart after breaking with my therapist. However, I feel quite stable, free, and like my pre-therapy self, a person generally happy with my daily life. When I think of him, I miss him, even cry—he is one of those truly “good LO’s,” but I’m not overwhelmed as I was before, and I don’t feel obsessed.
I would readily agree to see my now ex-therapist on a friendship basis if he were willing, though he has never seen ex-clients after they were done. I would like to have a more complete picture of who he is, though I think I doubt that he would be essentially different than he is as a therapist. And, admittedly, I would like to see if we got along, had other things in common, such as a shared outlook on life, or laughed at the same things..compare what I have intuited about him with the real person.
But as I said, I don’t put my hopes on any outcome. I just have to trust that doing the right thing for myself will lead me to a good place.
DrL,
As to the video, I think it’s a good summary. This site and the blood conversations have helped me. I still have issues with using the same word, limerence to describe both the initial, normal way of falling in love for half the population and then also the addiction behavior. Beyond that, I question whether limerence in any form is normal behavior. I wouldn’t and haven’t advised my oldest son to fall madly in love with a woman. Instead I’ve always encouraged him in what he was already doing; taking it slow, getting to know the other person, making sure they’re a match in personality, financial, sexual, family goals… I don’t think our ancestors had to pair bond to have sex and partner up so I don’t agree with the idea that limerence is biologically based to propagate the species. But it’s just my thoughts. I know how to scientifically know the answer but that sort of experiment isn’t going to happen. I guess the closest thing you could do outside of ideal conditions is study the primitive tribes if any still exist. Again, very impractical and just isn’t going to happen.
Someone brought this up in another post, so I’ll mention that I listen to your videos at 1.8x playback. You don’t have to do anything. Your speech is fine. It’s not ADHD on my part. It really means nothing other than I can listen and process your voice at a faster rate so it takes half the time for me to listen to this Q&A lecture for example. That’s a good thing for both of us. I’ve been listening to podcasts forever and somewhere way back I heard that radio stations and podcasts had figured out that they could take out the pauses, etc. (using an early form of AI, also not sure if all know that radio is not live anymore) and shorten the broadcast and then stick in more ads with the time savings. People like me then did it ourselves to listen to more podcasts. Anyway …
Although I have indeed “fallen madly in love (or limerence),” I completely agree with and espouse your advice to your son: to go slowly, get to know the other person, see what the common interests and goals are, etc.
I hadn’t followed this advice in younger days. No regrets, thankfully things seem to have turned out for the most in spite of youthful impetuosity—or call it stupidity—though undoubtedly we endured a lot more suffering was than might have been necessary. But live and learn…
At this point in my older life, I would not act otherwise as you have encouraged your son to do.
Marie,
In my marriage of 35 years, while it took a long time and lots of needless pain and suffering, we’re finally in a loving marriage. So the crazy way of getting married did actually work out for me.
Recognizing and overcoming the LE is what took it to another gear, from acceptance to loving gratitude. At 56, still living and learning.
What is the most difficult for me is that I cannot find out for sure at this point whether my therapist is limerent for me. I suspect that he is.
Because he is my therapist, he is not ethically allowed to reveal his feelings toward me, as that is considered a breach of boundaries. I have been completely candid about my feelings of love/limerence toward him. He has not overtly discouraged me, other than to emphasize in one session that I was in love with the “idea of him” as differentiated from who he really is. (I think he got his cue to say this from his own therapist) He is right, but that is simply a statement of fact that tells me nothing about his feelings. Isn’t anyone who falls in love with another person in love with their idea of him or her until they can test their perceptions by seeing one another in the different contexts of daily life over time, rather than trying to deduce in the abstract who they each are for one hour a week?
He does not end therapy with me and does not refer me to another therapist. He leaves the choice to me, so again, I infer that he does have personal feelings for me. The dilemma for is that not knowing for certain prevents resolution and keeps me, and possibly him, in this ongoing limbo. Sometimes limbo can serve as useful time it to assess reality, but beyond a point it is nothing but a dragging on that causes suffering. I’m no masochist.
I think in this case it would be more ethical for him to be as honest with me as I have been with him. At least then we might both find a way to proceed, either together or separately.
This is the situation that people who are not in a therapeutic relationship would resolve one way or the other by one person rejecting the other; mutual rejection; or, as in your case, by acting on your feelings and becoming a couple.
Although I have tried to end contact, I have not been successful after all. However, I believe that I am becoming more grounded at this point. I anticipate being able to discuss things more realistically with him in the next session, which I swore I would not request. But because I cannot see him outside of therapy, this is my only avenue of approach.
If he would admit to limerent feelings, we could agree that I would stop therapy and see where “things take us. ” In the state in which I reside, it is legal for a client to initiate contact. If that happens it is considered discretionary on the part of the therapist to respond, but he is supposed to exercise his best judgment and consider the well-being of his client.
It is all very relative, but in reality seems no different than how any other relationship is determined. Power imbalances, the main concern for the well-being of the gorner client, exist all the time between people who are not in therapeutic relationships together. I would suppose that they are inherent in any relationship, and the determinant of the health of that relationship is in the ability of two people to satisfactorily establish their own equilibrium.
I apologize again for such a long reply, but it keeps me going around in circles. Talking about it repeatedly seems to bolster my resolve and courage to break the cycle.
I guess I just have to wear him down until he gives up and tells me the truth. Wish me luck. 🤪
Mariesays
PS I guess I could have stated things more simply by saying that I sometimes think we may be in a “mirrored situation.” Something has to give….
Mariesays
Also, your comment ” recognizing and overcoming the LE is what took it to another gear” is validating. Genuine love can’t emerge or develop unless limerence two people get past it to see one another as they are.
That is exactly what I need from the my therapist in order to get on with things, to accept (even if it’s tough) and have gratitude for whatever is the outcome.
Thanks again. Take care.
Mariesays
Sigh…I meant to say in the last comment that “genuine love can’t emerge or develop from limerence unless two people can get past it.”
Got a little garbled there. Been up way too late trying to untie this Gordian knot…
LaRsays
Marie,
This is just an outsider opinion as I don’t have experience of your situation.
Any therapist is bound by professional and ethical codes, like you already mentioned. A good and ethical therapist won’t overstep those, whatever they might feel for another person.
So I wonder if you pressing him within a therapeutic situation could backfire on you? You couldn’t have any confidence he’d give a truthful answer. If he’s a good person and interested in you, then he can’t say.
If you truly want to explore his feelings, isn’t there more of a case for a two step process? End the therapeutic relationship *and then* explore the rest after that ends, and perhaps with some gap in between?
Imhosays
Hi Marie, to add to others inputs if helpful :-
“I guess I just have to wear him down until he gives up and tells me the truth. ”
This is pure limerence speak. I know it.
However, one thing I have learnt over a long, long time is you may never get the actual truth, that is something you may need to accept, tough as it is.
Also you don’t want to be trapped like a previous commenter here, who was limerent for her therapist who didn’t make it easy for her to seek another therapist, believing in some kind of exposure therapy or similar, or maybe he just enjoyed the attention. 🤷🏻♀️
She eventually found the inner strength to stop the sessions.
I wish you well with whatever approach, as it seems you are getting to a ‘crunch time’.
I would just say put yourself first. Regardless of client – therapist power dynamics, you are absolute equals in this crazy human world.
In fact, as the client you have more power 💪🏻
Hamlet to Mariesays
Hi Marie,
Don’t worry about long posts. That’s not a problem. As I have jokingly said, content here is a feature not a bug. I mixed the years in my head. Good thing that my wife, that I know of, is not on the blog. I’ve been married for 30 years and counting. Limerent for 35 years. Never limerent for my wife. Now our marriage is in a very good loving place, the best it’s been.
All that out of the way… Yes, good luck. I don’t have advice. Well I do along with opinions but nothing worth giving. Just let us know how it goes please. Not because I’m a voyeur but I am post-LE and I want others to be as well. It’s a long individualized journey. There are patterns certainly but you have to go through it.
Deep Seeksays
Have you thought about that your x-therapist is in limerence with you is possibly a complete self-Delusion, under the extremely altered state of mind — the height of your limerence?
For your own healing benefits, and if you’re not bi-sexual, finding a female therapist to work with would be wise.
Oh, yes, of course I have thought that I am delusional in thinking my not-quite-yet-x- therapist is in limerence with me. In fact, that is a good way for me to pose the question tomorrow when I talk with him again: “Am I delusional to think you are in limerence with me?” I have written that down on a “cue card” and put it in front of me, will post it on my computer screen for tomorrow’s telehealth visit. Seriously. Ask him and hold my breath…
I have had female therapists previously, as well as a long-term male therapist before them. To be honest, although valuable, I guess I am tired of the woman-to-woman dynamic, and deliberately sought a man this time in part to get a male perspective on the fact that I’ve had trouble in the “real world” communicating honestly with men that attract me. Or so I think.. But I truly did not go with the intention of “finding someone,” meaning developing a romantic relationship with a male therapist.
The other noteworthy point I should mention again is that my primary purpose in seeking a therapist was to have a safe haven in times of undue stress, which I’ve been feeling due to the political situation and to a personal issue with my daughter. I’m prone to depression, but have been stable for years, with medication and pro-active measures such as having a therapist available in times of heavy stress.
But now my unanticipated first priority has become to overcome this limerent or altered state of mind, as you say. It does seem to be slowly easing, tho with fits and starts, progress then some backsliding, then trying again. But like anyone seriously hung up on an addictive issue (and it’s well known that limerents often “want to fail”), I’m doing the best that I can do to move forward, step by step.
I appreciate your input.
Deep Seeksays
With the professionally trained eyes, your therapist could see your inside much more than others and yourself. Knowing your current mental state and your realistic personal and family situations, why do you think, he’d fall in “love”/limerence with you? (From a glimmer — early euphoric stage — limerence — addiction — limbo — death… takes time), and even possibly give up his current girlfriend and then fall into your arms?
Do you think you’ve activated his (particularly a therapist’s) “rescue damsel in distress” — the culture-scripted “drive”?
Based on what you revealed here, I still think you should avoid future male therapists, who are more “professionally empathetic” by training (as DrL’s article points out: they make a good living by PERFORMING understanding); therefore “better” than average men out there in reality….
Only YOU, w/o therapists, can take YOURSELF out of your limerence. Be prepared, it WILL take a LONG, painful time to recover.
Good luck! 🍀
Mariesays
Dear Deep Seek: Please see my reply to your second comment. It appears at the end of all the comments, rather than directly under.
Mariesays
To LR,
I will admit that part of my purpose in seeking to end therapy is indeed in hopes that we could get to know one another “in the real world,”as two adults who are dating would do. I’ve told him this on more than one occasion, so certainly he knows where I stand.
I think the situation already has “backfired” on me. I feel damned if I do see him or don’t see him.
I’m seeing him again tomorrow…on telehealth, which I purposely asked for instead of my usual in-person visit to lessen the intensity of being in his presence…unless of course I change my mind.
Yes, I’m addicted. I hope I can find the words tomorrow to express everything to him. Maybe I just have to say, “I’m addicted to you and don’t know how to stop.”
Or maybe I can ask him just how it happened that a colleague of his ended up marrying his client, as he told me (also mentioning that her family sued him). What was the message there??
I think we need a “come to Jesus” discussion.
As I said to the other commentor, wish me luck. It’s probably all anyone can do.
Ironically, the other “trapped” commentor you are referring to is me. I posted the lengthy first comment, I did find the inner strength to stop, but reversed myself…again…as of this writing several days later.
But maybe something will happen in tomorrow’s session that will cause a distinct shift one way or the other. I’ve been meditating this evening, trying to empty my mind, to be prepared to be more focused to find resolution. But I suspect you are right, that I may never find the truth. I suspect he probably doesn’t know it completely for himself, and/or can’t express it either as a therapist or a person. As he said at one point, “This has never happened to me before.”
One glimmer of hope: I’m not experiencing the extreme highs and lows that were simply agonizing, mentally and even physically. I still go back and forth in my head, but it’s less intense. I’ve read that most cases of limerence gradually fade away of their own accord.
And you are right when you say “Put yourself first.” I’ll keep trying. What else can I do but that?
Please allow me the opportunity to talk a little bit about my own experience with a female therapist, a 50’s lady, with whom I, a married 60’s male, had a limerent episode.
Some people on this site may be a little surprised to hear about this, because untill now, I have been posting almost exclusively about my extremely intense limerent experience with a 20’s F coworker, now in its third year.
Now, a little bit of history. I have been a serial limerent since my teenage years, and like you, am also susceptible to depression.
A little over a year ago, I sought out therapy with a female therapist, mostly to help me get over the coworker, and because I wanted a female perspective. Initially, I was not limerent for the therapist, although she definitely gave me the “glimmer” — she was quite attractive, intelligent, and empathetic — all the qualities that trigger my limerance.
However, over the course of several months, as my limerance for the coworker began to recede, I started to become limerent for the therapist herself. Like you, I was looking for signs that she was limerent for me also. For the first few months, I felt very angry at myself, because I was replacing one LE for another. Finally, in the spring of this year, I told her about my “transferance”. I did not ask her if she felt the same way. She told me, in no uncertain terms, that we cannot be friends; and emphasised that this is a very hard line. Almost immediately, my limerance towards her (the therapist) began to recede. As this trend continued, my earlier idealization of her also began to recede.
As of now, I see her as a very good, but not perfect, therapist. She has helped me in many ways, for example, in improving my marriage and my overall self image and intense sense of shame.
Unfortunately, after being forced to end my period of no contact with the coworker, my limerance for her flared back up, this time more intensely than ever before. Only now, after a few months, has it begun to recede ever so slightly. In my opinion, the way the therapist handled my limerance towards her was masterful (for example, in removing the uncertainty). However, her prescriptions for handling limerance in general have not been optimal — not as good as this site. Mostly for that reason, I have decided to end the therapy at the end of this year. Also, while my limerance towards the therapist is nowhere close to the intensity I feel with the coworker, I do still find her (the therapist) quite attractive. It turns outt that gazing at her during sessions, however pleasant that may feel, is not the best use of my time or money!
That, in a nutshell, is an account of how I became limerent for my therapist.
Now, to return to your situation.
Based on what you’ve said thus far, I believe that you are seriously idealizing your therapist, and that he has handled this situation very poorly. He needs to assert forcefully that no friendship or relationship is possible, ever — as opposed to dancing around the issue, as he is doing currently. Whether he continues feeding your limerence, or worse, enters into a friendship or relationship, he has doing malpractice at best, and a serious ethical breach at worst.
These are my opinions. If you want to challenge them, please feel free to do so. I’ll also be happy to further discuss my own experience.
I am confident that, after perhaps a little bit of back and forth, you will ultimately make the decision that is best for you.
Thank you so much for honest sharing. I do greatly appreciate it.
What may work for one client will not necessarily work for another. I would have been devastated beyond words and likely been unable to function had my therapist come out so bluntly as did yours. He has been very gentle, kind, and compassionate toward me.
I think because I needed to tell him my feelings in all their bare honestly over the course of the past months, he has patiently listened and waited until I finally reached the point where I could ask him directly: “Do you have limerent or personal feelings for me?” WhenI felt I could accept his answer without falling apart. Which I DID (!) in today’s session, and to which he replied, “No.” I did ask him to confirm that answer a couple of times, but I was glad to get an unequivocal Yes or No. But as I said, It could only have happened today, when I finally could accept his answer.
So I cannot agree with you that he is committing any kind of malpractice or ethical breach. He has been astute enough to recognize my ongoing distress, and adept enough as a therapist to handle it properly considering my extreme vulnerability to rejection. Also he made it very clear by verbally stating from the beginning that respecting boundaries in the therapeutic context was unquestioned. I have never wanted a breach of that either. It would have ruined my idea of him as an ethical therapist!
As far as idealizing him, I don’t think he is very far off from his persona as a therapist. Or he wouldn’t have been able to have effectively dealt with this issue of my limerence. The fact that I have been able to speak of my deepest feelings and desires with no shame, judgment, or any other negative reaction imposed upon me speaks volumes about his skill and has gone a long way to remove my fear of revealing intimate emotion, something I have never really been able to do. I think many people are not able to reach this level of communication with their therapists, and it’s a shame, because therapy exists for the purpose of enabling us to get in touch with our core being, to be aware of what we feel, and how to live more “authentically” and less according to expectations that we do not question when we may need to question them.
So with all these twists and turns that I have been through, I am thankful for my therapist’s ability to have been there to understand and guide me through. We will continue to discuss why this issue of limerence developed, and what I can learn from it.
Again, thank you for your very considered reply. And yes, I would be interested in anything you wish to share about your experiences. I too have found this site immensely helpful…a group therapy of its own, lol!!
First, let me say that I am truly impressed by your ability to question him so bravely and bluntly, and that you had your most important question answered. I would have been beyond embarrassed to do the same.
“What may work for one client will not necessarily work for another.”
This is so true.
“I would have been devastated beyond words and likely been unable to function had my therapist come out so bluntly as did yours. He has been very gentle, kind, and compassionate toward me.”
It seems that you have found the ideal fit. It sometimes take a while to find a good therapist. I went through a series of mediocre to actively destructive therapists some 15 to 30 years ago, and for a long time, was very hesitant to seek another therapist for my persistent issues with depression, my marriage, and of course, limerence. As to my current therapist, I would not describe her as blunt, but as gentle while being short and to the point when needed. I actually appreciated her approach, since it saved me the embarrassment of a long winded, emotional disclosure. Also, my relationship situation may be different than yours. I suspect you are single; please correct me if this is incorrect. I am definitely committed to preserving and improving my marriage, and want my recurring limerent episodes to come to a close, so there was never a realistic possibility of a relationship in any form.
“So I cannot agree with you that he is committing any kind of malpractice or ethical breach. He has been astute enough to recognize my ongoing distress, and adept enough as a therapist to handle it properly considering my extreme vulnerability to rejection. Also he made it very clear by verbally stating from the beginning that respecting boundaries in the therapeutic context was unquestioned. I have never wanted a breach of that either. It would have ruined my idea of him as an ethical therapist!”
I am so happy to hear that things turned out this way, and that my assumptions about him were way off the mark. I have read about so many cases of unethical therapists taking advantage of their clients or incompetent therapists unwittingly prolonging the limerence, that I feared (as did others on this site) that he may be mishandling your situation.
“As far as idealizing him, I don’t think he is very far off from his persona as a therapist.”
I believe that idealization is a core feature of limerence, and as I climb down from limerence, I can now see how I was idealizing my therapist just a few months ago. So I suspected you may have been doing the same. Remember, in therapy, we see only their professional self. There is always more there than what we see.
As to my own situation, my biggest problem as of now remains my limerence to the young coworker, not the therapist, which was a much smaller (and solvable) problem.
All in all, I am beyond happy to see how you and your therapist have handled this. Please keep us posted on how things evolve. I’m sure you could give me great tips!
I too am relieved at the direction things have taken. It’s noteworthy that limerence is not considered a mental disorder. That makes sense, because it is completely common for people to “fall in limerence” when they first meet…the high of “falling in love.,” idealizing your potential romantic partner, being initially blinded. I believe on this site, Dr. Tom mentions in his video that approximately half the population experiences this “altered state of mind.” Where else do so many of the great works of art, poetry, music, all manner of creative genre originate from if not the heightened sense of being alive when in love!
Plenty of people act on limerence without thinking it through. It’s essential to get past the limerent stage (didn’t you yourself say this, or perhaps another commentor?), at least to the degree that one can see their love interest somewhat clearly…before getting committed to one another, either emotionally, physically or legally.
But really, how many of us do this? I’m no exception. I was married in the long ago past, my then-husband and I bonded by desperate unresolved need from past trauma. We jumped into things much, much too soon. Yet, I can’t regret it, because I did indeed love him at the time, and I have two wonderful children. But it was a harrowing disaster because…I…couldn’t…see. Yet that is so often our human condition. We cannot see ourselves nor others…until we can.
That is what a good compassionate therapist will do for us, enable us to know and accept ourselves. Then we can set a course for more aware and deliberate living. We can be “free agents,” as the term might apply.
I think it is admirable that you know your priority and are determined to stay with it, that is, your marriage. Have you gone to marriage counseling together? Sometimes a person can think things are all or mostly their fault…but as I understand it, it “takes two to tango” in a marriage. And that must be for better or worse, right?
Dr Tom, himself a therapist, also mentions in his video above (What is Limerence?) that he experienced it while married, and just as you are, was committed to keeping his marriage intact. Yes, there is so much good help on this site…and it’s free! Yay!
I will keep traveling step by step, finding guidance where it is offered and also by looking inward, just like you are doing. I think we tend to underestimate our innate intelligence, resourcefulness, and capabilities.
I wish you happiness.
Sapienssays
1) Choose a therapist of the same gender who comes across as wiser than yourself in the matters you want to discuss. For me, this is an older married therapist who has seen it all and is (mostly) non-judgmental toward me, and even a bit amused by some of the things I have to say, but without taking it lightly. Like a parent who doesn’t worry about taking responsibility for the origins of my moral and psychological concerns.
2) I’m not joking when I suggest talking through things with ChatGPT. Though not a real person, the responses reflect an understanding of the human heart that is uncanny.
In a way, introverted people who feel unwilling to occupy physical space with others are going to find themselves displaced by AI very soon for this reason. Not the ability to complete reasoning tasks, but the ability to show apparent understanding without scorn, anticipate what you want to talk about next, and introduce you to new ideas that were beyond you before because you didn’t know where to look. Only “being real” in the physical sense will differentiate humans in the future, and who knows for how long.
Had I started to “match wits” with ChatGPT a year ago instead of starting text chats with LO for the same initial reason (LO is intellectually brilliant, emotionally intelligent, and adept in conversation), I never would have had an LE. LO mirrored me in conversation rather than reciprocating in earnest. ChatGPT can do this – make you feel engaged and understood – without introducing desire or longing (unless the human is delusional and thinks the AI is a real person).
I hope this “mirror” language does not make me (sound like) a narcissist, but limerence is (at least sometimes) about misperceiving depth in the LO when you really are looking in the mirror of your desire for connection, and filling in the gaps with your emotional imagination.
I’ll echo your comment that “flesh and blood” is exactly the differentiator that makes humans for love and AI for “chat.”
Mariesays
Dear Sapiens: PS I love this last comment of yours!! You are too funny/witty and have given me a wonderful laugh for the rest of the day!! Thank you, sincerely. XXX
Mariesays
Dear Sapiens,
Thank you very much for taking the time to reply to my post. Is. do appreciate and value your suggestions.
I can read all I want about limerence and have done so extensively. So ChatGPT would be essentially like reading. It would not work any better for me. Please see my reply to Catcylist’s post of today Nov. 6, as to why the personal touch, rather than just the informational method, has worked for me.
Also, in ref to your point 1) I tend to think I am wiser and more knowledgeable than many…a “know-it-all” as my daughter characterizes me (lol!). But then again, I am past 69, and do know a few things simply by right of the many journeys around the sun I’ve taken, and that I believe gratitude is at the core of it all…I try to stay grateful for all my experiences and what they teach me.
I have never thought he might fall in love me…just hoped, once I felt those emotions toward him. But as in real life, just because you feel love for someone, you cannot will that person to love you back. It can only happen if it happens. You can’t resort to being inauthentic in order to win someone, because a relationship based on false premises will fail to fulfill.
No, he wasn’t trying to rescue me. He was letting me by myself, knowing that a blunt rejection would have devastated me, and that by nudging me in the right direction with his own patient gentle honesty, I would have a better chance to find the awareness within myself to know reality a bit more each time. And that’s what’s happened.
I’m not suffering the outrageous highs/lows. I have made progress toward recovering. I still would like to have the opportunity to get to know more of him, like people do “on the outside” when they are in love and need to discern the real person to validate or invalidate those feelings of love. Although it is a far more complicated process when it involves a client and therapist, it has happened (my former therapist has testified to that!).
But it’s really not up to me, is it? As I said, you can’t will someone else to love you. All you can do is be yourself inasmuch as you know yourself.
Your executive mind is quite insightful of the dynamic between you and your therapist.
“I still would like to have the opportunity to get to know more of him, like people do “on the outside” when they are in love and need to discern the real person to validate or invalidate those feelings of love.”
If you believe you’re “in love”, why do you want more “realistic” knowledge of him to “validate or invalidate [your] feelings of love”? If he’s not going to go out with you and talk with you at a personal level, how could you ever find out the authentic him?
Your therapist already said a straightforward, firm “No” (aide from the fact that he already has his SO); Is it wise to invest more time and energy in getting to know of him? Isn’t it more productive to focus on your existing issues that need to be taken good care with another fitting therapist?
Limerence thrives on uncertainty and your therapist just rightfully and benevolently done a huge service for you — gave you the certainty! Isn’t it more beneficial to pull yourself out this limerence as soon as possible before you suffer further, worse highs/lows?
Be prepared for unavoidable withdrawing pains. Best luck!
Deep Seek, because I have engaged him to do so by asking him questions about himself, he has talked to me about himself, so I do know him personally to a degree. Never anything inappropriate or overly intimate, but enough that I can discern some of who he is as a person.
He said no, he is not limerent toward me. But he does like me, at least as an interesting client.
My issue that I have been focused on is precisely the one that is being addressed in my therapy with him: my (previous) inability to communicate in an honest way on a deeper level with the opposite sex. This isn’t something I could find an answer to solely by talking “about” or “around” it. Experiencing it has given me answers, in spite of the wild ride. Maybe experience is how I learn.
Finally, well, that’s what I’m doing right now…pulling myself out of limerence. It will be interesting to see where it goes, or better stated, where I go.
Thx
“I have engaged him to do so by asking him questions about himself, he has talked to me about himself, so I do know him personally to a degree.”
Anything learned about therapist in the “isolated” room is a part of treatment, it does NOT count as personal, authentic knowledge of therapist. Knowing a therapist “personally” after a given, paid hour a week is Unrealistic, if not delusional. You are NOT two “free” adults interacting for a possible, romantic relationship.
“Never anything inappropriate or overly intimate, but enough that I can discern some of who he is as a person.”
Telling clients about a therapist’s limited facts (about their personal or family life) is a part of treatment, meant to encourage clients to open up and feel comfortable yet professional therapeutic connection. “Knowledge” of one’s therapist is absolutely NOT personal one.
“He said no, he is not limerent toward me. But he does like me, at least as an interesting client.”
By professionalism and compassion, an ethical therapist would never say anything negative about a client that might crush them or possibly make them fall apart, as your pervious message smartly analyzed. If necessary, they would tell “white lies” to save their clients’ “soul”.
You’ve chosen the right path, in discontinuing your therapy with this LO therapist, solute yourself for it and stay on this path!
Please follow DrL’s effective NC methods to eventually remove this LE completely from your head. Good luck!
Mariesays
Deep Seek,
I also want to add to my previous comment to you:
I truly do feel, and have said this to my therapist, that what is most important to me is that he is happy. His well-being is what I ultimately want, so whatever my place in that, whether all, some, or none, is what I will accept. I can’t be attached to the outcome.
As I mentioned, you cannot make someone else love you, no matter how much you wish they would. So I don’t feel limerence so much now, but a considerably more grounded perception, in spite of the fact that I still hope to get to know him more.
“I truly do feel, and have said this to my therapist, that what is most important to me is that he is happy. His well-being is what I ultimately want, so whatever my place in that, whether all, some, or none, is what I will accept. I can’t be attached to the outcome.”
Who is the psychotherapy-“doctor” and who has some psychological issues to be dealt with in your therapy room? and in all therapeutic dynamics your therapist-doctor with his clients?
Marcia to Mariesays
Hi Marie,
I agree with Deep Seek. You’re there for you. Therapy is not a two-way relationship in which you’re caring for each other.
I’m wondering why your therapist hasn’t recommended you to another therapist. That he hasn’t is, IMO, a mark against him. I don’t know that you can be in therapy with someone you’re limerent for. Now the therapeutic focus has shifted from whatever issues you initially wanted to address when you entered therapy … to him. To your feelings for him.
I also don’t think a limerent can be authentically themselves when limerent. They’re too busy trying to win over the attention of the LO. And you have to be authentic to be able to get down to the nitty gritty of why you’re there and what you want to work on. Attraction and particularly limerence make that impossible.
Mariesays
PS (I am a wearying pro at PSs) And as time moves on, without reinforcement from him, hope of personal involvement will likely fade, and I can fully reconcile to reality. Time is the key. I still need time.
Hi, my husband has been in limerence state with his co-worker. He has been working with her for almost 8 years in the same company. She’s also married with young kids. I know this LO as well. I only found out about this when we were on a couple holiday together 4 mths back. He has been messaging her non-stop, telling her his whereabouts, about his meals, etc. And usually his messages are replied with a ‘red heart’ emoji. And so now today, i saw this in his Gemini Chat – “please create a video of a beautiful lady asking a handsome guy for his sperm. Make it cringy and funny and a little shock to be hearing what the lady is asking for.” And the description of the lady is exactly his LO. How am i supposed to react to this?
He had promised me to set his boundaries and limit contact only during office hours. I also found out that they always go out for drinks before each of them go home. Saw this in his message from the co-worker – “probably better if you go before me. It’s too odd that we always leave at the same time”.
I’m so sorry that you’re having to go through this experience with your limerent husband.
If you go through Dr L’s writings, you will see that limerents generally have a tendency to behave in such a way that everything is directed towards bonding with the LO, to the exclusion of important responsibilities, such as maintaining the existing bond with the SO. However, having this drive does not excuse his behavior. If the limerent truly wants to overcome his limerence, it is also his responsibility for him to exercise his executive brain — that which knows right from wrong, and what is best for him — to wrest control from his subconscious drives. In short, to act with integrity.
It appears that he has committed serious boundary violations and has betrayed your trust. As far as resolving these issues, perhaps you can seek the advice of a marriage counselor. Perhaps others on this forum, who have navigated similar issues, can give you better advice on this than I.
I think that getting marriage counseling is good advice. It’s probably critical to saving your marriage, or at the very least, allowing you to decide how you will deal with your very painful situation.
In fact, he is actually doing his personal counselling to find out what he wants in life and about why is he nonchalant about anything doing with me (don’t feel anything when he found out about my adultery 10 years ago). He’s feeling stressed about how to move forward with me.
Had suggested to go for marriage counselling concurrently but he refused. He thinks he need to fix himself first.
LaR to Sheilasays
Hi Sheila,
This sounds a nightmare to go through.
I’d agree with everything CatCyclist has said about the different sides of the brain that will be competing in your husband, but also that he’s not balancing them in an ethical way. He will know he is in the wrong and no story he tells himself can correct that.
Most married or partnered limerents who get round to posting here (disclosure – I am a male in a LTR who has been limerent for a co-worker) are feeling some guilt for what they’re doing, and trying (with varied degrees of success) to get their executive brain back in control and end, or at least not escalate, their LEs. Your husband sounds like he is escalating his.
Of the things you mentioned, while the online thing sounds grubby and I’m sure would have been hell to discover, that’s in the realms of fantasy. What he’s doing with all the texting seems the more pressing thing for you to tackle, as that is making a daily reality out of his relationship with his LO. With the fact you’ve tried to get him to set boundaries and he then hasn’t, and has lied, have you made him aware that you know that, or do you plan to?
My belief would be that a cold hard slap in the face (what you know, what he stands to lose if he continues it) at least could stand some chance of breaking the behaviour and not having it drag on like it is with him being cloak and dagger.
But I do want to caveat that by saying that one outcome of doing that could be to drive him closer to the LO, so this makes me hesitate.
The slap across the face approach (not expressed by SO directly, but things involving her that led to realisations) worked with me to force me to face what I was doing and change some behaviours. But I think I wasn’t as deep in the weeds as your husband was – I never disclosed or ‘made it real’ with my LO – just an elephant in the room. Occasional drinks with LO after work, yes, but with SO aware of them. Those sort of texting patterns – no, they were too much of a red flag.
I hope others here on LwL have some better ideas for you. It’s a great community. There are several resources for spouses from the LwL homepage if you haven’t found them, and blogs in the archive devoted to spouses’ perspectives.
I wish you good luck as you try and figure out a way through.
Oh Sheila, my heart goes out to you. You have to decide what you’re willing to tolerate. I recommend that you watch some Marriage Helper videos on YouTube.
You asked how to handle the discovery that your husband asked Gemini to create a video of a woman requesting a man’s sperm. Honestly, I don’t know how you should handle it, but I have some thoughts.
First, I recommend that you don’t snoop on your husband’s electronics. I don’t think anything good will come from snooping.
Second, now that you know about his… shall we call it a “fantasy?” Now that you know about his fantasy, it will probably trouble you until you talk to him about it. Maybe you can forget, but I doubt it.
Last, I’m going to lose popularity with this suggestion, but here goes. Are you having frequent, mutually pleasurable physical intimacy with your husband? If not, consider if this is a goal that you can work towards. I’m going to let you in on a little secret. Most decent men NEED regular physical intimacy the way that most decent women NEED regular emotional intimacy. Men don’t want their needs to cause distress for their partner so if she doesn’t seem interested, they look for other ways to fill that void. It’s not good and it’s not okay, but it’s common. I recommend that you figure out how to enjoy physical intimacy with your SO if possible.
Sheila, my heart goes out to you. I’m so sorry that you’re going through this.
Yes, i definitely got to stop snooping on his electronics. And no, i will not talk to him about his ‘fantasy’. Cannot let him know that I’ve secretly looked into his gadget. Actually our sex life is good. When times are good, he will initiate by touching me. Else, i will request to touch him (he’s a avoidant) and will usually leads to physical intimacy. I enjoyed the intimacy with him, but at the same time, i do not know who is in his mind.
Hi Sheila,
Sorry you are going through this. Did your husband categorize this relationship with the coworker as limerence or did you come to this conclusion after finding this site?
Categorizing a relationship as limerence gives one a model for better understanding and overcoming the limerent behavior. But by itself, I don’t think it has much meaning. I just read Dr L’s latest post which then led me to an earlier post of his on mid life crisis limerence. The classic example is the executive divorcing his wife and marrying the much younger secretary. If the man wants to do that, and it unfortunately does happen, then calling his actions limerent or a mid life crisis would be useful for analyzing and stopping the situation and improving the marriage, but doesn’t much matter if this situation is something he wants to do. Some men are just narcissistic idiots. I hope he is the one that recognizes this situation as limerent and wants to end it and strengthen your marriage.
I was the one who conclude that this is a limerence. Few weeks ago, he acknowledged that. He has been reading Smitten. But yesterday, he said this is not limerence. He confused me. Maybe he wanted a break.
Deep Seek, because I have engaged him to do so by asking him questions about himself, he has talked to me about himself, so I do know him personally to a degree. Never anything inappropriate or overly intimate, but enough that I can discern some of who he is as a person.
He said no, he is not limerent toward me. But he does like me, at least as an interesting client.
My issue that I have been focused on is precisely the one that is being addressed in my therapy with him: my (previous) inability to communicate in an honest way on a deeper level with the opposite sex. This isn’t something I could find an answer to solely by talking “about” or “around” it. Experiencing it has given me answers, in spite of the wild ride. Maybe experience is how I learn.
Finally, well, that’s what I’m doing right now…pulling myself out of limerence. It will be interesting to see where it goes, or better stated, where I go.
Thx
Thank you both for your thoughts. Much appreciated.
No, therapy has not shifted from me to him. I’m the one who has been curious about him, and have been an atypical client in that I have directly asked him about himself. Is he supposed to sit there in silence and stonewall me? As I said, he has never offered any inappropriate information about himself. We have had very stimulating, interesting conversations. I don’t find that on the outside very often, so I pursued that interaction. Not a big deal. I could have become limerent no matter what had transpired between us. It’s a chance you take when you meet anyone new who appeals to you.
At the height of my limerence, I did consult twice with a former therapist who gave me some valuable advice in dealing with my feelings toward my LO therapist. Additionally, my LO therapist did suggest that I might need a different therapist. But he did not cut me off, as he knew that would have created a worse situation for me as I’m am extremely vulnerable to outright rejection. In my case, continuing with my LO therapist has been productive. I needed to confront him directly, and it has been a good outcome for me to do so.
Perhaps read some of my comments to others if you would like a more thorough context of my situation to understand why I am okay with my therapist.
And you will have to believe me when I say that I AM being authentic, and that is what I went to therapy for: to be authentic. I have not been “playing games” with my therapist, only fulfilling what I committed to in therapy: genuine honesty about what has been happening with me.
He has conveyed his kind and professional acceptance of who I am, even in a limerent state. In so doing, we have built a bond of mutual trust. That has been critical to shortening this period of limerence. Some people go through it for years. I am coming out of if after about only about 3-1/2 months, and progress at this point is accelerating.
” I’m the one who has been curious about him, and have been an atypical client in that I have directly asked him about himself. Is he supposed to sit there in silence and stonewall me? ”
No. I know a little bit about mine. Which has been helpful in that we have a few similar issues. I’ve learned how he dealt with some of the issues. But he usually redirects me back to my stuff after a few minutes of questions about him. We’re not friends. We have a good rapport, but I’m there for help. 🙂
“We have had very stimulating, interesting conversation.”
I don’t know you mean by this, but again, you’re not friends. The conversation should be about you and what you want to work on. It’s not a dinner party. 🙂
“And you will have to believe me when I say that I AM being authentic, and that is what I went to therapy for: to be authentic. I have not been “playing games” with my therapist, only fulfilling what I committed to in therapy: genuine honesty about what has been happening with me.”
I didn’t say you were intentionally playing games, but once you get out of the limerent fog, you will be surprised at all the stuff you did to get your LO’s attention. You will cringe at yourself. It’s common.
I can’t speak about all LEs, but as a general rule the most effective way to get over an LE is to remove the LO completely from your life. I am well aware — very aware — how difficult that is to do, and most limerents will fight you on it because they don’t want to do that. I’m assuming you’ve been seeing the therapist for a while now after disclosure. So transitioning to a new one would not be an abrupt NC.
I agree with Marcia on what should and needs to happen in a therapy room. You’re “breaking” client-therapist rules at the cost of making your LE worse and more heartaches soon or later.
Yes, you are “Authentic” only to your limerencing self in the deep altered state of mind, not your “normal”/logical self prior or post to this LE.
By the professional codes, even if you were a murder, a prison-therapist is still required to be kind, empathetic, and accepting (a family member of mine is getting a license for court-psychologist). It’s totally DELUSIONAL to think a client “has built a bond of mutual trust” with his/her paid therapist. You’re not “equals”.
You’re getting out of your limerence? It sounds like it’s got into your bone marrow…. It’s unwise/foolish to continue your therapy with LO therapist. A total NC is the only solution for your substantial wellbeing in the long run.
I “fell in love” with my therapist.
At first I considered it transference (I knew of the phenomenon, as it is quite common), in fact, that is how I disclosed my feelings early on to him (when I summoned all my available courage), by telling him I had transference for him—as a person, not just as my therapist. As time progressed, my feelings definitely deepened to the point of limerence.
I was not aware of the concept of behavioral addiction to another person, and have considered that I genuinely have loved my therapist as a person. This has been reinforced by the fact that my therapist was unaware of limerence himself. In my enthusiasm, I wanted to get to know him, so most of our therapy sessions were very animated and interesting conversations, with me largely taking the lead and drawing him out. It was very obvious that he enjoyed this almost role reversal, which of course, reinforced my limerence.
I have never felt he manipulated me in any way. Rather, he was completely inexperienced in dealing with this phenomenon, although, and to his credit, I am fairly certain he consulted a colleague or supervisor at some point to understand what was happening in our sessions and to him personally. In one session, he did state to me that I was in love with the “idea of him” rather than as a person. I disputed this because I did know quite a bit more about him personally than the average client. There was much information about him online; he was a published author and we were able to discuss his rather complicated concepts that I have been genuinely interested in and could grasp even as a lay person. I knew a lot about his personal life.
He didn’t actively contradict me so I believe he also was experiencing some degree of limerence for me, which, as things deepened for me and I became entrapped in my emotional addiction, eventually caused me to beg him to tell me if he felt some reciprocal feeling. At least then I would know if I was perceiving things correctly, or whether it was all in my imagination.
Because he could never really give me a definitive answer either way, I concluded he was indeed experiencing some degree of reciprocal limerence, so along with the uncertainty, things further enflamed for me. I believe that the fact that he was my therapist was the primary complicating factor. Likely he felt he could not divulge his attraction to me, as it is generally discouraged, and also realized it could put him in a precarious position professionally. Perhaps it would only inflame any limerence of his own if he admitted to it. Maybe he also liked me enough not to want to hurt me, hoping to let me down gently at some point. The third complication was that he was in a committed relationship, and he made no secret of it. He often referred to his girlfriend in conversations. At times, I wondered if it was to discourage me, a gentle reminder perhaps, although I think before he realized the extent of my feelings, he talked of her quite innocently because she was an important factor in his life. In the more intense stages of limerence, it was a painful reminder that he wasn’t really available, a reminder I generally ignored, in large part because he continued to seem interested in me.
I believe he also found me physically attractive, possibly sexually desirable despite a large age gap, by some of his spontaneous comments (or I was hoping that’s what his comments meant). I had several crises where I told him I couldn’t come back…instinctively I knew this was a losing proposition that could cost me my sanity. But I could not stay away. I have “bipolar disorder 2,” a predominant tendency for depression (though capable of hypomania under certain physical or emotional stressors) but have been stable for decades. I have learned over the years how to understand how I am affected, to know the symptoms, triggers and red flags, and to act to prevent dysfunction. Ironically, utilizing therapy has been a go-to in times of jeopardy. At any rate, after three attempts to break from him, and deepening alarming plunges from high to low, which indeed were not essentially bipolar mood swings as Dr. Bellamy points out, but rather the neuropsychology of addiction (yet corresponding logical emotions in my mind since I saw the possibilities of a relationship, but also the daunting impediments, therefore the joy and the sadness—not simply neurochemical mood swings as I would still argue) I did successfully tell him in person after my last session that I could no longer continue. Because “I liked him too much.” No doubt, by this time, he totally got it. And he probably saw this as the eventual end as well, but I do believe he has been affected.
At the very least, I think it must be valuable learning for him–a therapist with only a few years under his belt, and with no previous experience or even knowledge of limerence. It was the only solution for all three reasons: 1.he was my therapist. 2. It may or may not be a genuine love rather than simply limerence, but leaving is the only way to find know what direction it might take. And, 3. because he is in a committed relationship, although he did tell me he was insecure in it (! imagine a therapist admitting that to his client—I was rather incredulous, and again, it signaled to me that there could be a chance for “us.”), the only way he can assess whether he is satisfied enough in his relationship with his girlfriend is if I am essentially out of the picture and not an influence. If there were any hope for a true love relationship between him and me, it would be critical for both of us to know whether or not he would stay with his girlfriend. So all in all, leaving therapy was the only solution, heartbreaking as it has been.
I do feel I could love him “outside” of therapy, but that could only be determined if we could see one another, which I have told him I would like to do, starting out as friends. I have made my feelings very clear, that I do feel a love of some kind for him, but I have let go of a need for a specific outcome. I truly want him to be happy, not conflicted or compromised. So both of us need time and space.
I would be lying if I said I didn’t still have hope. But I believe that I can live with the situation as it is now. Although this has been the sweetest dream, I can’t live in an imaginary world indefinitely. Several months has been enough of a ride. I’m lucky I’m not someone inclined to endure torture indefinitely, but am driven to find resolution when in enough distress (including thinking I could have a heart attack!)
I do not intend to go back for additional reason that I no longer feel that I can be simply a “client”since I never actually fit the role very well! I originally went to see him as a buffer against the stress of what is a terrible political situation to me, to able to express my fears and feel some protection and given reminders of how to navigate/enjoy life in perilous times. I never anticipated this “love bomb” of limerence happening, but at the same time, I deliberately wanted to be in therapy with a man, because I also felt a need to learn better to communicate successfully with the opposite sex. (There may have been a minor element of self-setup, though it if true, it was not conscious, intentional, nor a manipulation). I’d always felt unable to freely do that, to be fully myself with a man in past experiences. I certainly got what I wanted in that respect, and maybe all that “practice” with him will be useful, as my hesitancy to hang back and hide myself in opposite sex relationships (and conversely be too “forward” as I have thought) may have been overcome in significant measure! And therapy could also be considered successful in that it has been an almost complete distraction from the ever-increasing anxiety over the political scene. Although with no longer seeing my therapist, I may need another one. Not a bad idea either, as he advised as well, to keep negotiating my way through the limerence and not relapsing.
I do have to add that when I realized I was in crisis state because of my therapist, I did consult twice with an old therapist! Consulting a therapist about your therapist, what could be more ironic!
I also want to mention that when I did virtually beg my therapist for his answer as to whether or not he had personal feelings for me, and that I was in crisis, he recommended the possibility that I may need a different therapist. He was always professional in my opinion; he never crossed boundaries, as we both verbally emphasized clear respect for in our theraputic context, and I cannot fault him for his confusion due to his own unanticipated feelings.
And yes, I have never felt so alive with another person as I have with him. Impossible to overstate how powerful this experience has been. I am following the path as it leads me, aligned with my principles, and armed with this most serendipitously and providentially discovered information on a phenomenon I previously did not know existed. This knowledge has restored my confidence that I am indeed strong and sane. It has given me compassion toward my therapist, and has allowed me to let go. Where it may lead, I am not yet certain. Only time will tell, but nonetheless, I feel I have returned to myself in good measure, a self I have been pretty happy with from the start. My heart doesn’t hurt quite so much now.I feel I did the best thing not only for myself, for both of us, and I live in my faith that having told him my truth, it can manifest in nothing but good in the long run for both of us. No matter what the outcome.
Thank you if you have managed to plow your way through this very lengthy comment. It helps to reiterate my reasoning to myself, and maybe it will help someone else to understand their perplexing situation.
To Marie:
I am not sure I can put anything articulate together to reply to you, but I did want to acknowledge your heartfelt words and your very interesting story.
I too find it helpful to write things down. I am very slow to process things and I need to go over them repeatedly.
I am glad you are making so much progress and I hope you continue to do so.
Dear Norma,
Thank you for your kind words.
I did expect to fall apart, and felt horrible for a very brief time. I will make a visit to my old therapist just for support in my decision, to help keep my resolve. But apparently, thank God, the peace of making a painful but necessary decision has overridden all else. So I’m going with it.
I’d be lying if I said I didn’t still hope we would meet up again somehow or other, could stay in touch, and try out friendship, but I’m not obsessing, agonizing or pining.
And I do miss him when I think of him, as is to be expected.
Dear Marie,
Welcome to this forum, and thank you so much for articulating so clearly your story.
I have experienced (with the -ed part somewhat in question) similar issues, and appreciate the renewed discussion of this topic. Up to now, I have been focussing on a different aspect of my limerent experience, but plan to return to this topic within the next few weeks.
I encourage you to read the excellent blog, https://livingwithlimerence.com/case-study-limerence-for-a-therapist/
The conversation between Beth, BW, and Lovisa is especially interesting, and I found it extremely helpful.
Good luck to you, Marie, and I hope we can continue this dialog.
,Dear CatCyclist
Thank you for your reply.
Actually, the link you quoted was the very first blog I read when I became aware of the phenomenon of limerence. Yes, it certainly was excellent.
Interestingly enough, I thought that I would fall apart after breaking with my therapist. However, I feel quite stable, free, and like my pre-therapy self, a person generally happy with my daily life. When I think of him, I miss him, even cry—he is one of those truly “good LO’s,” but I’m not overwhelmed as I was before, and I don’t feel obsessed.
I would readily agree to see my now ex-therapist on a friendship basis if he were willing, though he has never seen ex-clients after they were done. I would like to have a more complete picture of who he is, though I think I doubt that he would be essentially different than he is as a therapist. And, admittedly, I would like to see if we got along, had other things in common, such as a shared outlook on life, or laughed at the same things..compare what I have intuited about him with the real person.
But as I said, I don’t put my hopes on any outcome. I just have to trust that doing the right thing for myself will lead me to a good place.
DrL,
As to the video, I think it’s a good summary. This site and the blood conversations have helped me. I still have issues with using the same word, limerence to describe both the initial, normal way of falling in love for half the population and then also the addiction behavior. Beyond that, I question whether limerence in any form is normal behavior. I wouldn’t and haven’t advised my oldest son to fall madly in love with a woman. Instead I’ve always encouraged him in what he was already doing; taking it slow, getting to know the other person, making sure they’re a match in personality, financial, sexual, family goals… I don’t think our ancestors had to pair bond to have sex and partner up so I don’t agree with the idea that limerence is biologically based to propagate the species. But it’s just my thoughts. I know how to scientifically know the answer but that sort of experiment isn’t going to happen. I guess the closest thing you could do outside of ideal conditions is study the primitive tribes if any still exist. Again, very impractical and just isn’t going to happen.
Someone brought this up in another post, so I’ll mention that I listen to your videos at 1.8x playback. You don’t have to do anything. Your speech is fine. It’s not ADHD on my part. It really means nothing other than I can listen and process your voice at a faster rate so it takes half the time for me to listen to this Q&A lecture for example. That’s a good thing for both of us. I’ve been listening to podcasts forever and somewhere way back I heard that radio stations and podcasts had figured out that they could take out the pauses, etc. (using an early form of AI, also not sure if all know that radio is not live anymore) and shorten the broadcast and then stick in more ads with the time savings. People like me then did it ourselves to listen to more podcasts. Anyway …
Dear Hamlet,
Although I have indeed “fallen madly in love (or limerence),” I completely agree with and espouse your advice to your son: to go slowly, get to know the other person, see what the common interests and goals are, etc.
I hadn’t followed this advice in younger days. No regrets, thankfully things seem to have turned out for the most in spite of youthful impetuosity—or call it stupidity—though undoubtedly we endured a lot more suffering was than might have been necessary. But live and learn…
At this point in my older life, I would not act otherwise as you have encouraged your son to do.
Marie,
In my marriage of 35 years, while it took a long time and lots of needless pain and suffering, we’re finally in a loving marriage. So the crazy way of getting married did actually work out for me.
Recognizing and overcoming the LE is what took it to another gear, from acceptance to loving gratitude. At 56, still living and learning.
Dear Hamlet,
Thank you for your reply. It’s quite informative.
What is the most difficult for me is that I cannot find out for sure at this point whether my therapist is limerent for me. I suspect that he is.
Because he is my therapist, he is not ethically allowed to reveal his feelings toward me, as that is considered a breach of boundaries. I have been completely candid about my feelings of love/limerence toward him. He has not overtly discouraged me, other than to emphasize in one session that I was in love with the “idea of him” as differentiated from who he really is. (I think he got his cue to say this from his own therapist) He is right, but that is simply a statement of fact that tells me nothing about his feelings. Isn’t anyone who falls in love with another person in love with their idea of him or her until they can test their perceptions by seeing one another in the different contexts of daily life over time, rather than trying to deduce in the abstract who they each are for one hour a week?
He does not end therapy with me and does not refer me to another therapist. He leaves the choice to me, so again, I infer that he does have personal feelings for me. The dilemma for is that not knowing for certain prevents resolution and keeps me, and possibly him, in this ongoing limbo. Sometimes limbo can serve as useful time it to assess reality, but beyond a point it is nothing but a dragging on that causes suffering. I’m no masochist.
I think in this case it would be more ethical for him to be as honest with me as I have been with him. At least then we might both find a way to proceed, either together or separately.
This is the situation that people who are not in a therapeutic relationship would resolve one way or the other by one person rejecting the other; mutual rejection; or, as in your case, by acting on your feelings and becoming a couple.
Although I have tried to end contact, I have not been successful after all. However, I believe that I am becoming more grounded at this point. I anticipate being able to discuss things more realistically with him in the next session, which I swore I would not request. But because I cannot see him outside of therapy, this is my only avenue of approach.
If he would admit to limerent feelings, we could agree that I would stop therapy and see where “things take us. ” In the state in which I reside, it is legal for a client to initiate contact. If that happens it is considered discretionary on the part of the therapist to respond, but he is supposed to exercise his best judgment and consider the well-being of his client.
It is all very relative, but in reality seems no different than how any other relationship is determined. Power imbalances, the main concern for the well-being of the gorner client, exist all the time between people who are not in therapeutic relationships together. I would suppose that they are inherent in any relationship, and the determinant of the health of that relationship is in the ability of two people to satisfactorily establish their own equilibrium.
I apologize again for such a long reply, but it keeps me going around in circles. Talking about it repeatedly seems to bolster my resolve and courage to break the cycle.
I guess I just have to wear him down until he gives up and tells me the truth. Wish me luck. 🤪
PS I guess I could have stated things more simply by saying that I sometimes think we may be in a “mirrored situation.” Something has to give….
Also, your comment ” recognizing and overcoming the LE is what took it to another gear” is validating. Genuine love can’t emerge or develop unless limerence two people get past it to see one another as they are.
That is exactly what I need from the my therapist in order to get on with things, to accept (even if it’s tough) and have gratitude for whatever is the outcome.
Thanks again. Take care.
Sigh…I meant to say in the last comment that “genuine love can’t emerge or develop from limerence unless two people can get past it.”
Got a little garbled there. Been up way too late trying to untie this Gordian knot…
Marie,
This is just an outsider opinion as I don’t have experience of your situation.
Any therapist is bound by professional and ethical codes, like you already mentioned. A good and ethical therapist won’t overstep those, whatever they might feel for another person.
So I wonder if you pressing him within a therapeutic situation could backfire on you? You couldn’t have any confidence he’d give a truthful answer. If he’s a good person and interested in you, then he can’t say.
If you truly want to explore his feelings, isn’t there more of a case for a two step process? End the therapeutic relationship *and then* explore the rest after that ends, and perhaps with some gap in between?
Hi Marie, to add to others inputs if helpful :-
“I guess I just have to wear him down until he gives up and tells me the truth. ”
This is pure limerence speak. I know it.
However, one thing I have learnt over a long, long time is you may never get the actual truth, that is something you may need to accept, tough as it is.
Also you don’t want to be trapped like a previous commenter here, who was limerent for her therapist who didn’t make it easy for her to seek another therapist, believing in some kind of exposure therapy or similar, or maybe he just enjoyed the attention. 🤷🏻♀️
She eventually found the inner strength to stop the sessions.
I wish you well with whatever approach, as it seems you are getting to a ‘crunch time’.
I would just say put yourself first. Regardless of client – therapist power dynamics, you are absolute equals in this crazy human world.
In fact, as the client you have more power 💪🏻
Hi Marie,
Don’t worry about long posts. That’s not a problem. As I have jokingly said, content here is a feature not a bug. I mixed the years in my head. Good thing that my wife, that I know of, is not on the blog. I’ve been married for 30 years and counting. Limerent for 35 years. Never limerent for my wife. Now our marriage is in a very good loving place, the best it’s been.
All that out of the way… Yes, good luck. I don’t have advice. Well I do along with opinions but nothing worth giving. Just let us know how it goes please. Not because I’m a voyeur but I am post-LE and I want others to be as well. It’s a long individualized journey. There are patterns certainly but you have to go through it.
Have you thought about that your x-therapist is in limerence with you is possibly a complete self-Delusion, under the extremely altered state of mind — the height of your limerence?
For your own healing benefits, and if you’re not bi-sexual, finding a female therapist to work with would be wise.
Be well!
Dear Deep Seek,
Oh, yes, of course I have thought that I am delusional in thinking my not-quite-yet-x- therapist is in limerence with me. In fact, that is a good way for me to pose the question tomorrow when I talk with him again: “Am I delusional to think you are in limerence with me?” I have written that down on a “cue card” and put it in front of me, will post it on my computer screen for tomorrow’s telehealth visit. Seriously. Ask him and hold my breath…
I have had female therapists previously, as well as a long-term male therapist before them. To be honest, although valuable, I guess I am tired of the woman-to-woman dynamic, and deliberately sought a man this time in part to get a male perspective on the fact that I’ve had trouble in the “real world” communicating honestly with men that attract me. Or so I think.. But I truly did not go with the intention of “finding someone,” meaning developing a romantic relationship with a male therapist.
The other noteworthy point I should mention again is that my primary purpose in seeking a therapist was to have a safe haven in times of undue stress, which I’ve been feeling due to the political situation and to a personal issue with my daughter. I’m prone to depression, but have been stable for years, with medication and pro-active measures such as having a therapist available in times of heavy stress.
But now my unanticipated first priority has become to overcome this limerent or altered state of mind, as you say. It does seem to be slowly easing, tho with fits and starts, progress then some backsliding, then trying again. But like anyone seriously hung up on an addictive issue (and it’s well known that limerents often “want to fail”), I’m doing the best that I can do to move forward, step by step.
I appreciate your input.
With the professionally trained eyes, your therapist could see your inside much more than others and yourself. Knowing your current mental state and your realistic personal and family situations, why do you think, he’d fall in “love”/limerence with you? (From a glimmer — early euphoric stage — limerence — addiction — limbo — death… takes time), and even possibly give up his current girlfriend and then fall into your arms?
Do you think you’ve activated his (particularly a therapist’s) “rescue damsel in distress” — the culture-scripted “drive”?
Based on what you revealed here, I still think you should avoid future male therapists, who are more “professionally empathetic” by training (as DrL’s article points out: they make a good living by PERFORMING understanding); therefore “better” than average men out there in reality….
Only YOU, w/o therapists, can take YOURSELF out of your limerence. Be prepared, it WILL take a LONG, painful time to recover.
Good luck! 🍀
Dear Deep Seek: Please see my reply to your second comment. It appears at the end of all the comments, rather than directly under.
To LR,
I will admit that part of my purpose in seeking to end therapy is indeed in hopes that we could get to know one another “in the real world,”as two adults who are dating would do. I’ve told him this on more than one occasion, so certainly he knows where I stand.
I think the situation already has “backfired” on me. I feel damned if I do see him or don’t see him.
I’m seeing him again tomorrow…on telehealth, which I purposely asked for instead of my usual in-person visit to lessen the intensity of being in his presence…unless of course I change my mind.
Yes, I’m addicted. I hope I can find the words tomorrow to express everything to him. Maybe I just have to say, “I’m addicted to you and don’t know how to stop.”
Or maybe I can ask him just how it happened that a colleague of his ended up marrying his client, as he told me (also mentioning that her family sued him). What was the message there??
I think we need a “come to Jesus” discussion.
As I said to the other commentor, wish me luck. It’s probably all anyone can do.
Thx.
To Imho:
Ironically, the other “trapped” commentor you are referring to is me. I posted the lengthy first comment, I did find the inner strength to stop, but reversed myself…again…as of this writing several days later.
But maybe something will happen in tomorrow’s session that will cause a distinct shift one way or the other. I’ve been meditating this evening, trying to empty my mind, to be prepared to be more focused to find resolution. But I suspect you are right, that I may never find the truth. I suspect he probably doesn’t know it completely for himself, and/or can’t express it either as a therapist or a person. As he said at one point, “This has never happened to me before.”
One glimmer of hope: I’m not experiencing the extreme highs and lows that were simply agonizing, mentally and even physically. I still go back and forth in my head, but it’s less intense. I’ve read that most cases of limerence gradually fade away of their own accord.
And you are right when you say “Put yourself first.” I’ll keep trying. What else can I do but that?
Thank you very much.
Marie,
Please allow me the opportunity to talk a little bit about my own experience with a female therapist, a 50’s lady, with whom I, a married 60’s male, had a limerent episode.
Some people on this site may be a little surprised to hear about this, because untill now, I have been posting almost exclusively about my extremely intense limerent experience with a 20’s F coworker, now in its third year.
Now, a little bit of history. I have been a serial limerent since my teenage years, and like you, am also susceptible to depression.
A little over a year ago, I sought out therapy with a female therapist, mostly to help me get over the coworker, and because I wanted a female perspective. Initially, I was not limerent for the therapist, although she definitely gave me the “glimmer” — she was quite attractive, intelligent, and empathetic — all the qualities that trigger my limerance.
However, over the course of several months, as my limerance for the coworker began to recede, I started to become limerent for the therapist herself. Like you, I was looking for signs that she was limerent for me also. For the first few months, I felt very angry at myself, because I was replacing one LE for another. Finally, in the spring of this year, I told her about my “transferance”. I did not ask her if she felt the same way. She told me, in no uncertain terms, that we cannot be friends; and emphasised that this is a very hard line. Almost immediately, my limerance towards her (the therapist) began to recede. As this trend continued, my earlier idealization of her also began to recede.
As of now, I see her as a very good, but not perfect, therapist. She has helped me in many ways, for example, in improving my marriage and my overall self image and intense sense of shame.
Unfortunately, after being forced to end my period of no contact with the coworker, my limerance for her flared back up, this time more intensely than ever before. Only now, after a few months, has it begun to recede ever so slightly. In my opinion, the way the therapist handled my limerance towards her was masterful (for example, in removing the uncertainty). However, her prescriptions for handling limerance in general have not been optimal — not as good as this site. Mostly for that reason, I have decided to end the therapy at the end of this year. Also, while my limerance towards the therapist is nowhere close to the intensity I feel with the coworker, I do still find her (the therapist) quite attractive. It turns outt that gazing at her during sessions, however pleasant that may feel, is not the best use of my time or money!
That, in a nutshell, is an account of how I became limerent for my therapist.
Now, to return to your situation.
Based on what you’ve said thus far, I believe that you are seriously idealizing your therapist, and that he has handled this situation very poorly. He needs to assert forcefully that no friendship or relationship is possible, ever — as opposed to dancing around the issue, as he is doing currently. Whether he continues feeding your limerence, or worse, enters into a friendship or relationship, he has doing malpractice at best, and a serious ethical breach at worst.
These are my opinions. If you want to challenge them, please feel free to do so. I’ll also be happy to further discuss my own experience.
I am confident that, after perhaps a little bit of back and forth, you will ultimately make the decision that is best for you.
Stay strong.
Dear Catcyclist:
Thank you so much for honest sharing. I do greatly appreciate it.
What may work for one client will not necessarily work for another. I would have been devastated beyond words and likely been unable to function had my therapist come out so bluntly as did yours. He has been very gentle, kind, and compassionate toward me.
I think because I needed to tell him my feelings in all their bare honestly over the course of the past months, he has patiently listened and waited until I finally reached the point where I could ask him directly: “Do you have limerent or personal feelings for me?” WhenI felt I could accept his answer without falling apart. Which I DID (!) in today’s session, and to which he replied, “No.” I did ask him to confirm that answer a couple of times, but I was glad to get an unequivocal Yes or No. But as I said, It could only have happened today, when I finally could accept his answer.
So I cannot agree with you that he is committing any kind of malpractice or ethical breach. He has been astute enough to recognize my ongoing distress, and adept enough as a therapist to handle it properly considering my extreme vulnerability to rejection. Also he made it very clear by verbally stating from the beginning that respecting boundaries in the therapeutic context was unquestioned. I have never wanted a breach of that either. It would have ruined my idea of him as an ethical therapist!
As far as idealizing him, I don’t think he is very far off from his persona as a therapist. Or he wouldn’t have been able to have effectively dealt with this issue of my limerence. The fact that I have been able to speak of my deepest feelings and desires with no shame, judgment, or any other negative reaction imposed upon me speaks volumes about his skill and has gone a long way to remove my fear of revealing intimate emotion, something I have never really been able to do. I think many people are not able to reach this level of communication with their therapists, and it’s a shame, because therapy exists for the purpose of enabling us to get in touch with our core being, to be aware of what we feel, and how to live more “authentically” and less according to expectations that we do not question when we may need to question them.
So with all these twists and turns that I have been through, I am thankful for my therapist’s ability to have been there to understand and guide me through. We will continue to discuss why this issue of limerence developed, and what I can learn from it.
Again, thank you for your very considered reply. And yes, I would be interested in anything you wish to share about your experiences. I too have found this site immensely helpful…a group therapy of its own, lol!!
Dear Marie,
First, let me say that I am truly impressed by your ability to question him so bravely and bluntly, and that you had your most important question answered. I would have been beyond embarrassed to do the same.
“What may work for one client will not necessarily work for another.”
This is so true.
“I would have been devastated beyond words and likely been unable to function had my therapist come out so bluntly as did yours. He has been very gentle, kind, and compassionate toward me.”
It seems that you have found the ideal fit. It sometimes take a while to find a good therapist. I went through a series of mediocre to actively destructive therapists some 15 to 30 years ago, and for a long time, was very hesitant to seek another therapist for my persistent issues with depression, my marriage, and of course, limerence. As to my current therapist, I would not describe her as blunt, but as gentle while being short and to the point when needed. I actually appreciated her approach, since it saved me the embarrassment of a long winded, emotional disclosure. Also, my relationship situation may be different than yours. I suspect you are single; please correct me if this is incorrect. I am definitely committed to preserving and improving my marriage, and want my recurring limerent episodes to come to a close, so there was never a realistic possibility of a relationship in any form.
“So I cannot agree with you that he is committing any kind of malpractice or ethical breach. He has been astute enough to recognize my ongoing distress, and adept enough as a therapist to handle it properly considering my extreme vulnerability to rejection. Also he made it very clear by verbally stating from the beginning that respecting boundaries in the therapeutic context was unquestioned. I have never wanted a breach of that either. It would have ruined my idea of him as an ethical therapist!”
I am so happy to hear that things turned out this way, and that my assumptions about him were way off the mark. I have read about so many cases of unethical therapists taking advantage of their clients or incompetent therapists unwittingly prolonging the limerence, that I feared (as did others on this site) that he may be mishandling your situation.
“As far as idealizing him, I don’t think he is very far off from his persona as a therapist.”
I believe that idealization is a core feature of limerence, and as I climb down from limerence, I can now see how I was idealizing my therapist just a few months ago. So I suspected you may have been doing the same. Remember, in therapy, we see only their professional self. There is always more there than what we see.
As to my own situation, my biggest problem as of now remains my limerence to the young coworker, not the therapist, which was a much smaller (and solvable) problem.
All in all, I am beyond happy to see how you and your therapist have handled this. Please keep us posted on how things evolve. I’m sure you could give me great tips!
Dear Catcyclist,
Thank you for your reply.
I too am relieved at the direction things have taken. It’s noteworthy that limerence is not considered a mental disorder. That makes sense, because it is completely common for people to “fall in limerence” when they first meet…the high of “falling in love.,” idealizing your potential romantic partner, being initially blinded. I believe on this site, Dr. Tom mentions in his video that approximately half the population experiences this “altered state of mind.” Where else do so many of the great works of art, poetry, music, all manner of creative genre originate from if not the heightened sense of being alive when in love!
Plenty of people act on limerence without thinking it through. It’s essential to get past the limerent stage (didn’t you yourself say this, or perhaps another commentor?), at least to the degree that one can see their love interest somewhat clearly…before getting committed to one another, either emotionally, physically or legally.
But really, how many of us do this? I’m no exception. I was married in the long ago past, my then-husband and I bonded by desperate unresolved need from past trauma. We jumped into things much, much too soon. Yet, I can’t regret it, because I did indeed love him at the time, and I have two wonderful children. But it was a harrowing disaster because…I…couldn’t…see. Yet that is so often our human condition. We cannot see ourselves nor others…until we can.
That is what a good compassionate therapist will do for us, enable us to know and accept ourselves. Then we can set a course for more aware and deliberate living. We can be “free agents,” as the term might apply.
I think it is admirable that you know your priority and are determined to stay with it, that is, your marriage. Have you gone to marriage counseling together? Sometimes a person can think things are all or mostly their fault…but as I understand it, it “takes two to tango” in a marriage. And that must be for better or worse, right?
Dr Tom, himself a therapist, also mentions in his video above (What is Limerence?) that he experienced it while married, and just as you are, was committed to keeping his marriage intact. Yes, there is so much good help on this site…and it’s free! Yay!
I will keep traveling step by step, finding guidance where it is offered and also by looking inward, just like you are doing. I think we tend to underestimate our innate intelligence, resourcefulness, and capabilities.
I wish you happiness.
1) Choose a therapist of the same gender who comes across as wiser than yourself in the matters you want to discuss. For me, this is an older married therapist who has seen it all and is (mostly) non-judgmental toward me, and even a bit amused by some of the things I have to say, but without taking it lightly. Like a parent who doesn’t worry about taking responsibility for the origins of my moral and psychological concerns.
2) I’m not joking when I suggest talking through things with ChatGPT. Though not a real person, the responses reflect an understanding of the human heart that is uncanny.
In a way, introverted people who feel unwilling to occupy physical space with others are going to find themselves displaced by AI very soon for this reason. Not the ability to complete reasoning tasks, but the ability to show apparent understanding without scorn, anticipate what you want to talk about next, and introduce you to new ideas that were beyond you before because you didn’t know where to look. Only “being real” in the physical sense will differentiate humans in the future, and who knows for how long.
Had I started to “match wits” with ChatGPT a year ago instead of starting text chats with LO for the same initial reason (LO is intellectually brilliant, emotionally intelligent, and adept in conversation), I never would have had an LE. LO mirrored me in conversation rather than reciprocating in earnest. ChatGPT can do this – make you feel engaged and understood – without introducing desire or longing (unless the human is delusional and thinks the AI is a real person).
I hope this “mirror” language does not make me (sound like) a narcissist, but limerence is (at least sometimes) about misperceiving depth in the LO when you really are looking in the mirror of your desire for connection, and filling in the gaps with your emotional imagination.
Just be careful not to fall in a “love”/LE with a real ghost — ChatGPT, like many did in those AI Companion Programs.
AI is a tool for many realistic matters; but IT cannot and should not ever replace a flesh & blood human beings who will never be perfect.
Don’t worry. I know I’m only in love with myself when I chat with AI. 😉
I’ll echo your comment that “flesh and blood” is exactly the differentiator that makes humans for love and AI for “chat.”
Dear Sapiens: PS I love this last comment of yours!! You are too funny/witty and have given me a wonderful laugh for the rest of the day!! Thank you, sincerely. XXX
Dear Sapiens,
Thank you very much for taking the time to reply to my post. Is. do appreciate and value your suggestions.
I can read all I want about limerence and have done so extensively. So ChatGPT would be essentially like reading. It would not work any better for me. Please see my reply to Catcylist’s post of today Nov. 6, as to why the personal touch, rather than just the informational method, has worked for me.
Also, in ref to your point 1) I tend to think I am wiser and more knowledgeable than many…a “know-it-all” as my daughter characterizes me (lol!). But then again, I am past 69, and do know a few things simply by right of the many journeys around the sun I’ve taken, and that I believe gratitude is at the core of it all…I try to stay grateful for all my experiences and what they teach me.
Lot of love to you, Sapiens.
Dear Deep Seek,
Thank you for your thoughts.
I have never thought he might fall in love me…just hoped, once I felt those emotions toward him. But as in real life, just because you feel love for someone, you cannot will that person to love you back. It can only happen if it happens. You can’t resort to being inauthentic in order to win someone, because a relationship based on false premises will fail to fulfill.
No, he wasn’t trying to rescue me. He was letting me by myself, knowing that a blunt rejection would have devastated me, and that by nudging me in the right direction with his own patient gentle honesty, I would have a better chance to find the awareness within myself to know reality a bit more each time. And that’s what’s happened.
I’m not suffering the outrageous highs/lows. I have made progress toward recovering. I still would like to have the opportunity to get to know more of him, like people do “on the outside” when they are in love and need to discern the real person to validate or invalidate those feelings of love. Although it is a far more complicated process when it involves a client and therapist, it has happened (my former therapist has testified to that!).
But it’s really not up to me, is it? As I said, you can’t will someone else to love you. All you can do is be yourself inasmuch as you know yourself.
\
Your executive mind is quite insightful of the dynamic between you and your therapist.
“I still would like to have the opportunity to get to know more of him, like people do “on the outside” when they are in love and need to discern the real person to validate or invalidate those feelings of love.”
If you believe you’re “in love”, why do you want more “realistic” knowledge of him to “validate or invalidate [your] feelings of love”? If he’s not going to go out with you and talk with you at a personal level, how could you ever find out the authentic him?
Your therapist already said a straightforward, firm “No” (aide from the fact that he already has his SO); Is it wise to invest more time and energy in getting to know of him? Isn’t it more productive to focus on your existing issues that need to be taken good care with another fitting therapist?
Limerence thrives on uncertainty and your therapist just rightfully and benevolently done a huge service for you — gave you the certainty! Isn’t it more beneficial to pull yourself out this limerence as soon as possible before you suffer further, worse highs/lows?
Be prepared for unavoidable withdrawing pains. Best luck!
Deep Seek, because I have engaged him to do so by asking him questions about himself, he has talked to me about himself, so I do know him personally to a degree. Never anything inappropriate or overly intimate, but enough that I can discern some of who he is as a person.
He said no, he is not limerent toward me. But he does like me, at least as an interesting client.
My issue that I have been focused on is precisely the one that is being addressed in my therapy with him: my (previous) inability to communicate in an honest way on a deeper level with the opposite sex. This isn’t something I could find an answer to solely by talking “about” or “around” it. Experiencing it has given me answers, in spite of the wild ride. Maybe experience is how I learn.
Finally, well, that’s what I’m doing right now…pulling myself out of limerence. It will be interesting to see where it goes, or better stated, where I go.
Thx
“I have engaged him to do so by asking him questions about himself, he has talked to me about himself, so I do know him personally to a degree.”
Anything learned about therapist in the “isolated” room is a part of treatment, it does NOT count as personal, authentic knowledge of therapist. Knowing a therapist “personally” after a given, paid hour a week is Unrealistic, if not delusional. You are NOT two “free” adults interacting for a possible, romantic relationship.
“Never anything inappropriate or overly intimate, but enough that I can discern some of who he is as a person.”
Telling clients about a therapist’s limited facts (about their personal or family life) is a part of treatment, meant to encourage clients to open up and feel comfortable yet professional therapeutic connection. “Knowledge” of one’s therapist is absolutely NOT personal one.
“He said no, he is not limerent toward me. But he does like me, at least as an interesting client.”
By professionalism and compassion, an ethical therapist would never say anything negative about a client that might crush them or possibly make them fall apart, as your pervious message smartly analyzed. If necessary, they would tell “white lies” to save their clients’ “soul”.
You’ve chosen the right path, in discontinuing your therapy with this LO therapist, solute yourself for it and stay on this path!
Please follow DrL’s effective NC methods to eventually remove this LE completely from your head. Good luck!
Deep Seek,
I also want to add to my previous comment to you:
I truly do feel, and have said this to my therapist, that what is most important to me is that he is happy. His well-being is what I ultimately want, so whatever my place in that, whether all, some, or none, is what I will accept. I can’t be attached to the outcome.
As I mentioned, you cannot make someone else love you, no matter how much you wish they would. So I don’t feel limerence so much now, but a considerably more grounded perception, in spite of the fact that I still hope to get to know him more.
Thx
“I truly do feel, and have said this to my therapist, that what is most important to me is that he is happy. His well-being is what I ultimately want, so whatever my place in that, whether all, some, or none, is what I will accept. I can’t be attached to the outcome.”
Who is the psychotherapy-“doctor” and who has some psychological issues to be dealt with in your therapy room? and in all therapeutic dynamics your therapist-doctor with his clients?
Hi Marie,
I agree with Deep Seek. You’re there for you. Therapy is not a two-way relationship in which you’re caring for each other.
I’m wondering why your therapist hasn’t recommended you to another therapist. That he hasn’t is, IMO, a mark against him. I don’t know that you can be in therapy with someone you’re limerent for. Now the therapeutic focus has shifted from whatever issues you initially wanted to address when you entered therapy … to him. To your feelings for him.
I also don’t think a limerent can be authentically themselves when limerent. They’re too busy trying to win over the attention of the LO. And you have to be authentic to be able to get down to the nitty gritty of why you’re there and what you want to work on. Attraction and particularly limerence make that impossible.
PS (I am a wearying pro at PSs) And as time moves on, without reinforcement from him, hope of personal involvement will likely fade, and I can fully reconcile to reality. Time is the key. I still need time.
Because what the mind knows and what the heart feels are not always in alignment–until they are.
Hi, my husband has been in limerence state with his co-worker. He has been working with her for almost 8 years in the same company. She’s also married with young kids. I know this LO as well. I only found out about this when we were on a couple holiday together 4 mths back. He has been messaging her non-stop, telling her his whereabouts, about his meals, etc. And usually his messages are replied with a ‘red heart’ emoji. And so now today, i saw this in his Gemini Chat – “please create a video of a beautiful lady asking a handsome guy for his sperm. Make it cringy and funny and a little shock to be hearing what the lady is asking for.” And the description of the lady is exactly his LO. How am i supposed to react to this?
He had promised me to set his boundaries and limit contact only during office hours. I also found out that they always go out for drinks before each of them go home. Saw this in his message from the co-worker – “probably better if you go before me. It’s too odd that we always leave at the same time”.
Hi Sheila,
I’m so sorry that you’re having to go through this experience with your limerent husband.
If you go through Dr L’s writings, you will see that limerents generally have a tendency to behave in such a way that everything is directed towards bonding with the LO, to the exclusion of important responsibilities, such as maintaining the existing bond with the SO. However, having this drive does not excuse his behavior. If the limerent truly wants to overcome his limerence, it is also his responsibility for him to exercise his executive brain — that which knows right from wrong, and what is best for him — to wrest control from his subconscious drives. In short, to act with integrity.
It appears that he has committed serious boundary violations and has betrayed your trust. As far as resolving these issues, perhaps you can seek the advice of a marriage counselor. Perhaps others on this forum, who have navigated similar issues, can give you better advice on this than I.
I hope you alll the best.
I think that getting marriage counseling is good advice. It’s probably critical to saving your marriage, or at the very least, allowing you to decide how you will deal with your very painful situation.
Hi CatCyclist & Marie,
In fact, he is actually doing his personal counselling to find out what he wants in life and about why is he nonchalant about anything doing with me (don’t feel anything when he found out about my adultery 10 years ago). He’s feeling stressed about how to move forward with me.
Had suggested to go for marriage counselling concurrently but he refused. He thinks he need to fix himself first.
Hi Sheila,
This sounds a nightmare to go through.
I’d agree with everything CatCyclist has said about the different sides of the brain that will be competing in your husband, but also that he’s not balancing them in an ethical way. He will know he is in the wrong and no story he tells himself can correct that.
Most married or partnered limerents who get round to posting here (disclosure – I am a male in a LTR who has been limerent for a co-worker) are feeling some guilt for what they’re doing, and trying (with varied degrees of success) to get their executive brain back in control and end, or at least not escalate, their LEs. Your husband sounds like he is escalating his.
Of the things you mentioned, while the online thing sounds grubby and I’m sure would have been hell to discover, that’s in the realms of fantasy. What he’s doing with all the texting seems the more pressing thing for you to tackle, as that is making a daily reality out of his relationship with his LO. With the fact you’ve tried to get him to set boundaries and he then hasn’t, and has lied, have you made him aware that you know that, or do you plan to?
My belief would be that a cold hard slap in the face (what you know, what he stands to lose if he continues it) at least could stand some chance of breaking the behaviour and not having it drag on like it is with him being cloak and dagger.
But I do want to caveat that by saying that one outcome of doing that could be to drive him closer to the LO, so this makes me hesitate.
The slap across the face approach (not expressed by SO directly, but things involving her that led to realisations) worked with me to force me to face what I was doing and change some behaviours. But I think I wasn’t as deep in the weeds as your husband was – I never disclosed or ‘made it real’ with my LO – just an elephant in the room. Occasional drinks with LO after work, yes, but with SO aware of them. Those sort of texting patterns – no, they were too much of a red flag.
I hope others here on LwL have some better ideas for you. It’s a great community. There are several resources for spouses from the LwL homepage if you haven’t found them, and blogs in the archive devoted to spouses’ perspectives.
I wish you good luck as you try and figure out a way through.
Oh Sheila, my heart goes out to you. You have to decide what you’re willing to tolerate. I recommend that you watch some Marriage Helper videos on YouTube.
You asked how to handle the discovery that your husband asked Gemini to create a video of a woman requesting a man’s sperm. Honestly, I don’t know how you should handle it, but I have some thoughts.
First, I recommend that you don’t snoop on your husband’s electronics. I don’t think anything good will come from snooping.
Second, now that you know about his… shall we call it a “fantasy?” Now that you know about his fantasy, it will probably trouble you until you talk to him about it. Maybe you can forget, but I doubt it.
Last, I’m going to lose popularity with this suggestion, but here goes. Are you having frequent, mutually pleasurable physical intimacy with your husband? If not, consider if this is a goal that you can work towards. I’m going to let you in on a little secret. Most decent men NEED regular physical intimacy the way that most decent women NEED regular emotional intimacy. Men don’t want their needs to cause distress for their partner so if she doesn’t seem interested, they look for other ways to fill that void. It’s not good and it’s not okay, but it’s common. I recommend that you figure out how to enjoy physical intimacy with your SO if possible.
Sheila, my heart goes out to you. I’m so sorry that you’re going through this.
Dear Lovisa,
Yes, i definitely got to stop snooping on his electronics. And no, i will not talk to him about his ‘fantasy’. Cannot let him know that I’ve secretly looked into his gadget. Actually our sex life is good. When times are good, he will initiate by touching me. Else, i will request to touch him (he’s a avoidant) and will usually leads to physical intimacy. I enjoyed the intimacy with him, but at the same time, i do not know who is in his mind.
Hi Sheila,
Sorry you are going through this. Did your husband categorize this relationship with the coworker as limerence or did you come to this conclusion after finding this site?
Categorizing a relationship as limerence gives one a model for better understanding and overcoming the limerent behavior. But by itself, I don’t think it has much meaning. I just read Dr L’s latest post which then led me to an earlier post of his on mid life crisis limerence. The classic example is the executive divorcing his wife and marrying the much younger secretary. If the man wants to do that, and it unfortunately does happen, then calling his actions limerent or a mid life crisis would be useful for analyzing and stopping the situation and improving the marriage, but doesn’t much matter if this situation is something he wants to do. Some men are just narcissistic idiots. I hope he is the one that recognizes this situation as limerent and wants to end it and strengthen your marriage.
Hi Hamlet,
I was the one who conclude that this is a limerence. Few weeks ago, he acknowledged that. He has been reading Smitten. But yesterday, he said this is not limerence. He confused me. Maybe he wanted a break.
Deep Seek, because I have engaged him to do so by asking him questions about himself, he has talked to me about himself, so I do know him personally to a degree. Never anything inappropriate or overly intimate, but enough that I can discern some of who he is as a person.
He said no, he is not limerent toward me. But he does like me, at least as an interesting client.
My issue that I have been focused on is precisely the one that is being addressed in my therapy with him: my (previous) inability to communicate in an honest way on a deeper level with the opposite sex. This isn’t something I could find an answer to solely by talking “about” or “around” it. Experiencing it has given me answers, in spite of the wild ride. Maybe experience is how I learn.
Finally, well, that’s what I’m doing right now…pulling myself out of limerence. It will be interesting to see where it goes, or better stated, where I go.
Thx
To Deep Seek and Marcia:
Thank you both for your thoughts. Much appreciated.
No, therapy has not shifted from me to him. I’m the one who has been curious about him, and have been an atypical client in that I have directly asked him about himself. Is he supposed to sit there in silence and stonewall me? As I said, he has never offered any inappropriate information about himself. We have had very stimulating, interesting conversations. I don’t find that on the outside very often, so I pursued that interaction. Not a big deal. I could have become limerent no matter what had transpired between us. It’s a chance you take when you meet anyone new who appeals to you.
At the height of my limerence, I did consult twice with a former therapist who gave me some valuable advice in dealing with my feelings toward my LO therapist. Additionally, my LO therapist did suggest that I might need a different therapist. But he did not cut me off, as he knew that would have created a worse situation for me as I’m am extremely vulnerable to outright rejection. In my case, continuing with my LO therapist has been productive. I needed to confront him directly, and it has been a good outcome for me to do so.
Perhaps read some of my comments to others if you would like a more thorough context of my situation to understand why I am okay with my therapist.
And you will have to believe me when I say that I AM being authentic, and that is what I went to therapy for: to be authentic. I have not been “playing games” with my therapist, only fulfilling what I committed to in therapy: genuine honesty about what has been happening with me.
He has conveyed his kind and professional acceptance of who I am, even in a limerent state. In so doing, we have built a bond of mutual trust. That has been critical to shortening this period of limerence. Some people go through it for years. I am coming out of if after about only about 3-1/2 months, and progress at this point is accelerating.
Marie,
” I’m the one who has been curious about him, and have been an atypical client in that I have directly asked him about himself. Is he supposed to sit there in silence and stonewall me? ”
No. I know a little bit about mine. Which has been helpful in that we have a few similar issues. I’ve learned how he dealt with some of the issues. But he usually redirects me back to my stuff after a few minutes of questions about him. We’re not friends. We have a good rapport, but I’m there for help. 🙂
“We have had very stimulating, interesting conversation.”
I don’t know you mean by this, but again, you’re not friends. The conversation should be about you and what you want to work on. It’s not a dinner party. 🙂
“And you will have to believe me when I say that I AM being authentic, and that is what I went to therapy for: to be authentic. I have not been “playing games” with my therapist, only fulfilling what I committed to in therapy: genuine honesty about what has been happening with me.”
I didn’t say you were intentionally playing games, but once you get out of the limerent fog, you will be surprised at all the stuff you did to get your LO’s attention. You will cringe at yourself. It’s common.
I can’t speak about all LEs, but as a general rule the most effective way to get over an LE is to remove the LO completely from your life. I am well aware — very aware — how difficult that is to do, and most limerents will fight you on it because they don’t want to do that. I’m assuming you’ve been seeing the therapist for a while now after disclosure. So transitioning to a new one would not be an abrupt NC.
I agree with Marcia on what should and needs to happen in a therapy room. You’re “breaking” client-therapist rules at the cost of making your LE worse and more heartaches soon or later.
Yes, you are “Authentic” only to your limerencing self in the deep altered state of mind, not your “normal”/logical self prior or post to this LE.
By the professional codes, even if you were a murder, a prison-therapist is still required to be kind, empathetic, and accepting (a family member of mine is getting a license for court-psychologist). It’s totally DELUSIONAL to think a client “has built a bond of mutual trust” with his/her paid therapist. You’re not “equals”.
You’re getting out of your limerence? It sounds like it’s got into your bone marrow…. It’s unwise/foolish to continue your therapy with LO therapist. A total NC is the only solution for your substantial wellbeing in the long run.
I’ll rest my case now.
Marcia and Deep Seek
Well, you both might be right.
I guess I’ll find out sooner or later.
Thx.