It’s been a busy week for me this week, and one of those times where I’ve abortively started two or three possible posts, but somehow not quite got all the ducks in a row.
However, I also noticed that you cheeky scamps in the LwL commentariat have been having – *gasp* – off-topic conversations in the comments again.
Clearly it must be time for another coffeehouse post, so that conversations can ramble where they please, and wisdom can be cultivated.
To start the discussion this week, I’m going to cynically throw open the half-formed ideas for posts that are in my drafts folder, and see which of them strike a cord…
First up, is How to get over an office crush. I have posted before about limerence for a co-worker, but haven’t developed the ideas into a comprehensively useful how-to guide on beating an inconvenient office infatuation, and all the professional risks involved.
The second idea is Suspended Authority, which is a concept that I’m having trouble coming up with a good name for. It’s a nebulous feeling that was part of the limerence experience for me, and I suspect many others, but is difficult to clearly articulate.
The idea is when in the throes of a limerent episode, and most especially when in the presence of a limerent object, some internal force seemed to be able to sedate my executive brain. It was a kind of warm feeling of agreeable surrender – a strange mood in which I knew I was going to behave irresponsibly but didn’t care. Any previous resolve to stop seeking limerent reward evaporated.
It was as though the cautious, responsible part of my brain had been told to stand down – and not just that, while it sat on the sidelines, it was darkly, secretly, watching, and enjoying the frisson of danger.
That experience is one of the reasons why the “altered state of mind” framing of limerence seems so apt to me. It did feel as though I was a different person, running on different emotions, despite retaining my core identity.
The third post idea is about how limerence affects dating and mate selection. A lot of the discussion in this space seems to approach dating from an economic perspective: “high value” men seeking “high value” women, and how that influences mating habits. Dating apps have messed up the calculus in recent years, but there still seems to be a tendency to explain behaviour based on rational choice in a quasi-economic system.
The problem is, limerence is a massive destabilising force in this model. Objective “mate value” is meaningless when a limerent is fixated on their limerent object. LO maxes out desire, regardless of reproductive success or rational decision making.
If an alpha-chad becomes limerent for a “5 out of 10” girl next door, he’s going to pursue her single-mindedly, even if he could seduce a supermodel.
Beyond this sort of simple economic mismatch, there are numerous stories of limerents abandoning a good relationship for a trainwreck of a limerent object, abandoning young children for thrills, or desperately wanting to bond with selfish or abusive LOs. It’s hard to understand how that’s maximising their reproductive interests.
So, there we go. Some ideas to kick things off. Which would you like to read more about?
And finally…
One last piece of news. I’m delighted to announce the US publisher for Smitten: St Martin’s press.
I’ll keep everyone up to date on launch dates and pre-orders 😉
Suspended authority. Getting straight in there this week. This is something that I’ve come to realise more and more as I’ve been sobering up from LE. It’s been covered in parts before but for me, the realisation that I cannot seem to hold my tongue in the same way that I can in normal situations. I say things that I would never say to other friends. I’d be mortified of offending my friends if I said similar things to them. Like if I get jealous, passive aggressive comments come out in the most unattractive way. I think it comes down to feeling that close connection with LO, but truth is I don’t know how LO actually views me. I think his experience of me is likely to be different to others. It got the point where I realised we couldn’t be friends because I had no control of what I was going to say. Since then we met in person which was actually nice and dampened the idol image I had created in my head. However, I can’t remember all the conversation and I think my bluntness caused uneasiness in part.
I realised over the past few months that conversations with LO brings out the worst type of characteristics in me- jealousy, anxiety, judgemental, gossipy, overthinking.
I keep re reading the post about integrity because I need to try and take some control before I accidentally say something outrageous.
Hi Whoomp,
I can relate a bit, since I‘m saying/texting snippy, slightly aggressive stuff to my last LO too. I wouldn’t behave like that to other friends, I believe it is a residue of disappointed limerence that I get irked by him so much that I behave nastily.
I‘m not being fair there, he‘s just the way he is and I take offense at that sometimes. Afterwards I curse myself for not being more relaxed and good-willed, because I don’t want to be that snippy person with underlying aggression.
That’s why I think I have to reduce contact, I will be less provoked by his passive and not very perspective personality, and we would get along better. Or not, maybe it will just cool down then, but I am as far out of limerence as to accept that.
“The idea is when in the throes of a limerent episode, and most especially when in the presence of a limerent object, some internal force seemed to be able to sedate my executive brain. It was a kind of warm feeling of agreeable surrender – a strange mood in which I knew I was going to behave irresponsibly but didn’t care. Any previous resolve to stop seeking limerent reward evaporated.
It was as though the cautious, responsible part of my brain had been told to stand down – and not just that, while it sat on the sidelines, it was darkly, secretly, watching, and enjoying the frisson of danger.
That experience is one of the reasons why the “altered state of mind” framing of limerence seems so apt to me. It did feel as though I was a different person, running on different emotions, despite retaining my core identity.”
Okay. Suspended authority it is. Let’s see what we can do with this idea…
Surprisingly, I didn’t say anything cheeky or outrageous to my LO. I might have said cheeky and outrageous things to everybody in my life except for him. But I didn’t say anything daring to him. He was the one who said daring things to me. I think he corrupted me! (No, just kidding. I think he was appealing to me because deep down we were/are very similar people. He was just expressing all the parts of my own personality I was too shy or too well-raised to express in public).
I don’t think I acted irresponsibly around my LO. No, not unless we’re talking about that time he asked me school-related questions and I answered him in an Irish accent. Is impersonating an Irishman considered irresponsible, do you think? 🤣
Regarding the “warm feeling of agreeable surrender”, I have often wondered why I felt so comfortable on an emotional level with my LO. I’ve decided that’s because he was/is an ESTP, and if you look closely, ESTP is the exact opposite type to INFJ.
In other words, I was attracted to my polar opposite, and when we were together, there was this wonderful sense of completeness, because I think his personality compensated for everything that was weak or underdeveloped in mine, and vice versa. Perhaps I only imagined a sexual connection between us, but the emotional connection was definitely real. He sought me out in a way he didn’t seek out the other males in our group. He was getting something from me. My energy “fed” him in some strange way. He found me somehow comforting.
I can’t really remember feeling “frisson of danger” in relation to my LO, probably because I was young and naive and wasn’t aware of any moral/emotional stakes. I did feel guilty about certain things, but I didn’t explicitly link those things to my LO. I lived too much in fantasy to feel morally endangered by my LO. I did experience a “frisson of danger” recently, however, with a young man I only consider to be a crush and not an LO.
This young man and I have been exchanging flirtatious eye contact for about 2-3 years now. (He started it). We flirt with our body language, but only speak in passing. I think he’s a straight man, but he’s very feminine, has a beautiful mane of hair that he sometimes lets out. He has a ton of female friends. He’s very tactile with these female friends, and they with him. One day, I walked past him and one of his female friends was doing his hair for him. His hair, I’m sorry to say, looked better than hers did. I just smirked and waved as I walked past.
Anyway, long story short, I decided I was going to touch this man gently the next time I said goodbye to him, just to find out whether there is any real basis to the three years of “frisson” between us. I knew he was interested in interacting with me because he peeped round the corner while I was drinking my coffee just to look at me, and then he initiated the goodbye when I got up to leave. (He’s one of the baristas at the cafe, but he wasn’t working that day, just hanging around).
After the young man nodded and said goodbye to me, I gently placed both my hands on his upper arms, which were bare. He wasn’t uncomfortable. He was leaning over a counter and he looked back at me with an amused smile on his face, waiting for me to explain my actions. Two young women (cafe workers) were also present. All four of us know each other and are on friendly terms. While still touching my male friend, I leaned forward over his shoulder and addressed one of the female workers in a conspiratorial whisper. (This female worker is very close to my barista friend). “Ah. He’s a good man.” (I meant to say it sincerely, but the statement came out of my mouth sounding more sarcastic than sincere).
Barista friend happily and casually disagrees with me that he’s a good man, but he agrees with my second statement that he’s a good barista. “Yeah, that one’s probably true.”
When I made physical contact with this man, I felt “frisson of danger” in the form of an adrenalin rush, because I didn’t know how he’d respond to being touched. I felt like my whole body was burning up with fever because I’ve always found this man attractive. However, I also realised in the instant I touched him that he was NOT burning up with fever for me. For him, the touch I gave him was friendly and warm and casual and “matey”. All my fantasies about this man died on the spot. I could pick up through a mere half-second of skin contact his total absence of desire for me. The “frisson” I imagined existed between us wasn’t real – at least not from his point of view. Still, for a fraction of a second, my whole body came alive as if the frisson was real. My body wanted to believe in fantasy over fact.
This interaction helped me realised that LOs (and crushes) are indeed NOT to blame for the intense feelings they sometimes inspire. I realised that by touching my very attractive friend, I was bringing the “emotional fire” to the table and not him, and that my “emotional fire” meant very little to him indeed. His response to me wasn’t attraction and it also wasn’t shock or dismay or embarrassment or indignation. It was just good-natured tolerance/contempt. “Oh, it’s only Sammy. He wants a cuddle. How very … predictable. What else is new?” 🙄
Final analysis: I suspect my barista friend of being heterolimerent. He’s one of those heterolimerent men who are very lucky. (Females actually like him, and throng to him). If I had to explain the connection that he and I share, I would say that I think he likes me because I’m one of the few males in his life who isn’t jealous and/or threatened by his “hotness”. I’m actually getting as much pleasure from his “hotness” as the girls are. Also, I’m hot, but not hot enough to steal any female attention/spotlight away from him. I’m not a threat to him sexually or socially. I think the exact same dynamic was going on with my LO in high school.
My LO was a straight man with a lot of feminine qualities. His feminine qualities made him MORE attractive and not less attractive to females. You could say he had “bisexual appeal” i.e. both males and females thought he was good-looking. However, just because he had looks that appealed to both sexes, that doesn’t mean he himself was attracted to both sexes. If one touch can be enough to spark an infatuation, one touch can also be enough to snuff out an infatuation, because it can clearly indicate that sexual interest/romantic feeling isn’t reciprocated.
I think sometimes people can become limerent or stay limerent because they are living to a truly shocking extent INSIDE their own heads. It’s amazing how fast fantasy can collapse when one makes a real human connection with someone. For me, “frisson of danger” is often generated by a limerent choosing to hide feelings of attraction from LO. If said limerent expresses those same feelings openly, and fails to get a response, those feelings may quickly dissipate. 🙂
„If one touch can be enough to spark an infatuation, one touch can also be enough to snuff out an infatuation, because it can clearly indicate that sexual interest/romantic feeling isn’t reciprocated.“
Very true, agree completely. Now I think I only count my last three LEs as true limerence although having had intense crushes before, because these crushes were not reciprocated and snuffed out in a similar or related manner of what you recounted of your barista. I could only be really limerent for someone who reacted on touches and looks in a way that showed some sort of frisson- maybe not the exact same frisson or excitement as mine, but certainly something similar.
@Sammy,
What evidence do you have that you are “hot”? I truly am curious. I love that you are so confident about it. How can I know if I am “hot” or not? 😃
I had a non-date that turned into a date the other day. With an acquaintance of a friend. Apparently, he asked my friend at a coffee shop if she would help him with some English questions (English is his second language, Spanish of course is his native language). She did, and when she told me about him, she helped us exchange numbers. We did, and ended up meeting at the same coffee shop with my friend to introduce us. To say there were sparks was an understatement. When my friend left, we chuckled and stumbled through the English homework, then shortly after converted our non-date to a date where we actually got to know about eachother’s future goals, current situations and basically made sure some of the big deal breakers were out in the open and dealt with. And doing so in both languages was super fun.
I think I am dealing with another INFJ here, and that is truly exciting. To have a man see and experience the world a lot like I do?! I sure hope it goes somewhere. Too soon to say, but since I am free to explore, I am definitely going to enjoy what I can in this limerent-free season 💙
Hi LN,
I‘m convinced you are hot. I got the impression that there were several men pursuing you, which proves it,no? So, enjoy your hotness 😉 (if that’s a word)
@Mila,
I think I am “cute”. Which may be a stronger draw than “hot” in some ways 🤔
Hot AND cute, let’s agree on that!
Mila,
On the topic of cute…
When LO #2 and I were dating, LO #2 said that she didn’t like me at first. She said that I was cocky and arrogant (ENTJ). I asked her why she continued to go out with me. She said that I was “relentlessly persistent” and “at times, you cab be irresistibly cute.”
LO #2 and I would watch Remington Steele together. I told her that I wanted to be “killer” like Remington. LO #2 said that I couldn’t pull off “killer.” It just wasn’t in me. She said that I was cute. I protested. She said that I did cute better than anybody and there was nothing wrong with cute.
She also said that she thought I could pull off John Steed (Patrick NcNee) in The Avengers. But, I never put that to the test.
Mila,
“Hot AND cute, let’s agree on that!”
I don’t think a person can be both, can they? It’s two different types. One isn’t necessarily better than the other.
It’s just personal preference in terms of what a person prefers.
Limerent Emeritus,
I had to google, but realized that the Avengers were on tv when I was a kid under a completely ridiculous title (my home country insists on translating or replacing titles in a wayward manner)and I loved it! Have a vague memory of a kind and elegant guy. So, you seem to be another contender for hot and cute!
Marcia,
Maybe, being not a native speaker, I might have the wrong meaning of „hot“? Doesn’t it mean sexually attractive? Why can one not be cute and hot at the same time? I think it‘s possible and a devastating mix. Wasn’t Audrey Hepburn cute and hot, for example? I have to admit that I cannot think of a man at the moment, apart from LO2…
Mila,
” Wasn’t Audrey Hepburn cute and hot, for example? ”
I would never describe Audrey Hepburn as hot.
I think of “hot” as sexy. But I guess “hot” could also mean a smokeshow by being both sexy and attractive.
“Cute” is approachable in a kind of innocent or endearing way and attractive.
I’ve always considered that to be Hot, you have to at least be cute. There has to be some element of the way a person rocks an outfit or how they carry themselves. I see cute females everywhere, all the time, but many of them do not reach a level of what I would consider Hot.
Now Audrey Hepburn I think could easily qualify as Hot, judging from some of her facial expressions and outfits in those black and white photos from back in the day. She had her own certain style that helped too.. That whole Era of Hollywood seemed to really get how to “Vogue” certain Women and that’s just plain HAWT imo..
MJ,
“I’ve always considered that to be Hot, you have to at least be cute.”
That’s a man’s definition. Sexiness is tied to attractiveness.
If you’re talking about Old Hollywood, Ronald Reagan was a nice-looking guy is his youth but he didn’t have a sexy bone in his body. 🙂 Or the members of the Beatles. They’re cute buy they’re not sexy.
Jim Morrison of the Doors? Smoking sexy, in his hey day.
Thanks, Mila,
Song of the Thread: “Sharp Dressed Man” – ZZ Top (1982)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wRHBLwpASw#ddg-play
LO #2 worked in the Men’s Department of a major department store in college. About 3 months after we started dating, she said that I was good looking, smart, and great company but I dressed like a bozo. She said that she’d teach me how to dress.
She came over the next Saturday morning. She told me to bring two garbage bags, one for donation and one for the trash. She put my Navy uniforms to one side and pulled out every piece of clothing in my closet. She found one pair of brown and white checked polyester pants that I probably had for over 10 years. She took them by the legs and ripped them apart at the crotch, saying, “Not even a poor person should be caught dead in these.”
We went to the mall and $400 later ($1200 in adjusted dollars), I came out with a completely new wardrobe. The only think we disagreed on was double breasted jackets. Being in the Navy, I liked them. LO #2 didn’t. When I was in one of my more passive-aggressive moods, I’d wear one.
After we broke up, I went on a cruise. I was shopping for clothes and came across a suit in Nordstrom Rack that I thought belonged in the Casino in Monte Carlo. Unfortunately, it wasn’t anywhere close to my size.
After I got married, I saw the most gorgeous pin-striped suit in the Hugo Boss store in the mall. It was something John Steed would have worn. If a man couldn’t look good in that suit, he couldn’t look good in anything. It was $600 in 1990. I didn’t wear suits at work so I didn’t buy it but I loved it. The last time I wore a suit was to a funeral before covid.
Bonus tracka:
“Legs” (1982)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUDcTLaWJuo
“Gimme All Your Lovin” (1982)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae829mFAGGE
LE,
I would love to have someone with style to organize my clothes, I hate shopping and never get to throwing the clothes out I never wear!
Actually my colleague justhad the same problem like you with the Hugo Boss suit, apparently she saw the most fantastic black dress with a plunging back etc that fit perfectly, but was very expensive and she knew she would have very scarce opportunity to wear it.. she was torn and discussed it at length 😂and in the end didn’t buy it.
I wasn’t sure what to tell her either.
Mila,
LO #2 never told me what to wear but she taught me what I looked good in. She even had me get my colors done. I’m a Winter, LO #2 is an Autumn, and my wife is a Spring. I look good in bold colors. and charcoal grey, Navy blue, hunter green, and burgundy. Pastels make me look washed out. Alexander Julian and Boston Trader were two of my favorite clothing lines.
One day LO #2 and I were in the mall. She saw a bright pink shirt on the clearance table. She brought it over, held it up against me and said that I’d look really good in it. She said the shirt complimented my complexion. She said that most pink wouldn’t work for me but this shade did. I thought she was crazy but she was going to be with me when I wore it so I didn’t think she’d put me into anything that reflected poorly on her.
We had to find some things to go with it. I walked out of the store with the shirt, an off white linen sport coat, a tie that nearly matched the shirt and dark charcoal slacks.
She was right, I did look good in it.
LE
Ok I want her number!😂
I‘m never sure what really looks good on me. SO has a different taste from my colleagues, I have another taste again etc.
Especially pink needs to be the exactly right individual shadow for each skin tone. Not many men can pull off pink (hope I used „pull off“ in the right place)
Marcia,
I guess it’s not that someone is cute and hot at the same time, they can just be one or the other at different times, like a side of them that suddenly comes out.
I guess also that it’s rare in men. LO1 was hot, my SO is hot, he can do cute things but I wouldn’t describe him as cute. My last LO (3) was/is cute, only LO2 could be both. He‘s actually my favorite LO, not only because of that.
*I mean, my SO stands of course over all LOs. Only out of my LOs LO2 is my favorite ☝🏻
Mila,
“I guess it’s not that someone is cute and hot at the same time, they can just be one or the other at different times, like a side of them that suddenly comes out.”
I guess but I think of hotness (or sexiness) as a quality. Some people are just naturally sexy. The way they move, the way they walk, their mannerisms, their voice.
Really late to this conversation but my boss always would say I thought LO was “hot” and it would piss off my old fashioned sensibilities. Never cared for the word to describe a woman’s attractiveness. I think the peak of description of a woman is gorgeous. And the most “base” I can use as an adjective is (back in the day when this old man was young and wrote fiction) voluptuous.
Haha I remember when I was talking to my co-workers (when LO wasn’t there that day) that I couldn’t understand how LO’s ex could cheat on her with some “trailer trash hussy” and they all looked at me like that was the first time they heard “hussy”. I so date myself every time I talk. 🙂
Song of the Blog: “I’ve Got You Under My Skin” – The 4 Seasons (1966)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSpyqTjztwM
There are many covers of this song but this is my favorite. I like the “never win” in the background.
Is that a pug you’re scolding? LO #4 loved pugs. The only thing missing was the redhead but there was one in last week’s blog.
WRT “Suspended Authority,” when LO #4’s relationship went south and she reached out to me, my inner 5yr old came barreling out of nowhere saying, ” We’ve seen this before and I got this!
The battle was on.
@Mila,
Aw, thanks for the compliment ☺️
I won’t look at her facebook. I won’t look at her facebook. I won’t look at her facebook. I’m having a bad day. I don’t like him. A man dating 20 plus years down …. Am I any better? Time for Air Supply and lots of vodka. Or maybe some Barry Manilow or Bread for that matter.
Adam, Adam..
You need to unfollow for your own sanity.
Insta too, and whatever other social media.
Wipe it from your browser too.
No, not Air Supply or Manilow or any other soppy songs.
Get some metal into you.. Or hip hop.. Something with a bit of an edge.
I never did check it. I dont even follow her. Just use the search feature. I have bad vibes about this man she is with. Call my cynical but a man dating down 20 years younger than him …. I don’t trust he’s after her heart. I don’t want someone to hurt her again. I want to take her away from him. But maybe I am wrong. But in my old age I’ve learned to trust my gut. She’s been through so many men that don’t appreciate the wonderful mother and woman she is. And it distresses me.
MJ
Rose Pink Cadillac soothes me. Thanks for that.
You’re welcome @Adam. I’m glad you’re still enjoying the vibe. I listen to both versions and I still can’t refrain from singing when I put them on..
LO Love Forever.. 🤗😘🎵
As I understand it, regarding dating & mate selection, it typically works the other way about, though?
So it’s more likely that, say, a gamma girl will be pining for a Chad /Tyrone, waiting for him to ask her out, than the reverse.
That is, we desire most what we cannot have.
Having said that, most of my own crushes were indeed for women who I wasn’t sexually attracted to.
(I think they were just regular crushes, not LE’s, though I’m in the high risk category, INFJ-A.
I got over them soon after NC or disclosure or transference to a non-crush ship).
I’m thinking about the crushes I’ve had.. All the ones I can remember, were more emotional crushes.. None of them were exactly my ‘type’.
Though certainly not unappealing, their physical attributes were not their most outstanding feature, clearly it was not what attracted me to them, it was their personalities.
I remember at the time thinking each was out of my league.. but looking back now, in most cases, I do not know what I ever saw in them.
My current and I suspect only LO is the only crush I’ve ever had who so profoundly appeals to me both physically and emotionally.
In this case I’m definitely “batting above my average”, at least in my mind.
And I know that it’s also because of her personality.
Smokeshows come & go in my circle, but none have ever played with me like LO, so I consider them unavailable, and hence a zero.
Actually, I should rephrase that above quote to:
we desire most what is only just beyond our reach ~
@ghostzoned,
Good thoughts!
I did some debating on here a while ago trying to claim that my crushes start emotionally and only once that’s in place do I ever find them physically attractive. I got some good questions back from Marcia that made me rethink it.
Most men (perhaps ‘people’, but it would need female viewpoints to confirm) will do a kind of initial evaluation of whether / how much someone is physically ‘their type’ or potentially attractive to them on first meeting them. For me this happens sub consciously and I couldn’t stop it if I tried. The outcome enables me to categorise them on a binary ‘yes I could (given certain circumstances) become attracted to this woman’ or ‘no I couldn’t’. This sounds quite shallow but I’d be willing to bet most people do it.
But then those first impressions don’t determine whether it turns into a crush. That for me depends on the personality. Only if we really click in that way would it progress to a crush. Then my head is capable of turning their looks into the perfect angel. Others who are objectively better looking, this would never happen with if our personalities don’t click.
The first part just establishes who is a candidate or not. I can’t think of any crush I have had where they would not have been a ‘yes’ on that initial bit. A woman could have the most wonderful personality in the world and click with mine, without there ever being a hint of a crush. One of my almost lifelong female best friends is an example.
Why do you say INFJ-As are at most risk? I might be in this category but my F is right on the line with T – I score either side of the line depending on the mood I’m in.
Was referring to this study here https://livingwithlimerence.com/how-common-is-limerence/
INFJ’s & INFP’s are overwhelmingly represented among self reported limerents, INT-‘s also feature heavily.
I think that the ‘click’ is something that I yearn for more than anything, even in non limerent relationships.
If it’s not there, then no go.
I’ve only ever had long and mid term romances.
Could never do casual flings, even with someone I might find physically attractive, unless of course we connected, in which case a ONS would last for months..
My friends could happily hop into bed with some stranger without even knowing the person, or even someone they didn’t particularly like, and I never could get how they did it..
Thinking back, it’s the very opposite of limerence.
ghostzoned,
Now my replies aren’t appearing where I mean them to! Scroll down a bit and I have replied to this post.
Lim-a-rant,
“Most men (perhaps ‘people’, but it would need female viewpoints to confirm) will do a kind of initial evaluation of whether / how much someone is physically ‘their type’ or potentially attractive to them on first meeting them. For me this happens sub consciously and I couldn’t stop it if I tried. The outcome enables me to categorise them on a binary ‘yes I could (given certain circumstances) become attracted to this woman’ or ‘no I couldn’t’. This sounds quite shallow but I’d be willing to bet most people do it.
But then those first impressions don’t determine whether it turns into a crush. That for me depends on the personality.”
For me, it’s similar, but I feel chemistry or attraction right away. Now, that can fade pretty quickly if I get to know the person better and don’t like him. Or it can grow, if I become more interested. Talking to/interacting with the person determines it. But I already feel some kind of initial “shazam.”
@Marcia,
Mine are more glimmers (i know the word is LwL cliche but it fits what I experience well) that can escalate into shazams. But I have rethought the demisexual point we debated before. *Something* initial has to be there for me to be open to the emotional connection.
I guess I had a phase of more instant ‘shazam’ moments when I was in my teens and twenties – so I do know what you mean, even if it feels like a fading memory!
Lim-a-rant,
*Something* initial has to be there for me to be open to the emotional connection.”
Ah, ok. I separate the two. Physical attraction doesn’t mean emotional connection, and vice versa. Thought both can be present.
“I guess I had a phase of more instant ‘shazam’ moments when I was in my teens and twenties – so I do know what you mean, even if it feels like a fading memory!”
There are degrees of “shazam.” Some are stronger there others, but I feel some kind of sexual tension.
Marcia,
I didn’t express the “*something has to be there*” point quite right and I have blurred my meaning. I’ll try and be clearer.
I’d be willing to build and keep an emotional connection to anyone I clicked with where there was no physical attraction before or after the emotional connection. I have several totally platonic female friends like that.
But no amount of emotional connection alone can magic up a crush or limerence. Something else has to be there first for it to develop into that. And if the ‘something’ is there, I up the ante in finding out if an emotional connection exists.
See also an exchange I had with ghostzoned in this coffeehouse about it.
I am kind of climbing down from the “LO and I were just friends for ages, why did it change?” line I used to take. LwL has helped me to debunk that and know it’s more complicated.
Marcia,
“But no amount of emotional connection alone can magic up a crush or limerence. Something else has to be there first for it to develop into that”
If I’m understanding you correctly, you have to find the woman appealing initially. You have to be able to put her into the “I’d do her” category when you first meet. And then, if there is an emotional connection, it may become a crush. If it’s someone you don’t initially find appealing, no amount of emotional connection will cause the crush to develop, though you could be friends. Am I getting that right? Sorry … gotta ask. Is it not best, then, to avoid trying to develop an emotional connection with women you find attractive? Otherwise, you’re opening the door for potential issues down the road. Become friends/get closer to women you don’t find attractive. If I’m friends with a guy, it’s because I’m not into him physically. Or not enough to really do anything about it.
For me, I may find a guy attractive initially but that doesn’t mean I feel any frisson. But when I do, it’s pretty quick after meeting him. The emotional connection would come after getting to know him, which may kill the frisson if I end up not liking him.
@Marcia
“You have to be able to put her into the “I’d do her” category when you first meet.”
Not my words, but did really make me laugh out loud, and it’s factually correct.
“Am I getting that right? Gotta ask.”
Yep, accurate
“Is it not best, then, to avoid trying to develop an emotional connection with women you find attractive?”
Yes, when not single. It’s a lesson for the future, learned the hard way and after the horse had bolted this time.
“Become friends/get closer to women you don’t find attractive.”
More straightforward , less fun initially, but less long term trouble.
Lim-a-rant,
“Not my words, but did really make me laugh out loud, and it’s factually correct.”
🙂
“Yes, when not single. ”
It seems kind of self-evident. 🙂
“More straightforward , less fun initially, but less long term trouble.”
I mean, yes, but if you’re married (unless you have some kind of understanding) … you’re not really supposed to be on the prowl for potentials. I would be upset if my spouse was trying to befriend women he was into. Sorry. I’m just being honest.
Step away from the buffet. 🙂
Hold on, guys. There are some women who fall into the “I’d do her” category for all men. Must all men avoid them? Are those women supposed to be lonely? Women naturally don’t like them so who will they have for friendship? How about if we all learn to be kind to everyone even if they trigger feelings in us. I don’t think Lim-a-rant should avoid his attractive female friends, but he should control his behavior.
Just a thought.
Lovisa
“There are some women who fall into the “I’d do her” category for all men.”
That is not what I wrote. Falls into “I’d do her” for him.
” I don’t think Lim-a-rant should avoid his attractive female friends, but he should control his behavior.”
I don’t think a married or partnered man should be cultivating close, one-on-one friendships with women he is attracted to. And vice versa.
That’s my personal opinion. You may have a different one.
@Lovisa
I agree. And some of us have interests where our friends naturally end up being male a lot. Makes it hard to cut off a bunch of potentials. Especially if you’re introverted/neurodivergent and don’t make friends as easily.
I remember having attractive Lady Friends (usually co-workers) when I was married and it is a slippery slope when being committed.
As many of you already know, I was too easily triggered and it finally caught up to me. Now I’m just a hot middle aged mess.
Perhaps LaR is a better Man than me. Lovisa is correct we should be kind. Keeping control with thoughts is paramount. But I do admit Ms. Marcia raises a good point.
I‘m with Lovisa here.
It‘s probably a question of what „I‘d do her“ means. There’s a whole range between finding someone generally attractive and having a crush.
I cannot rule out every attractive person as my friend, wouldn’t that be a bit paranoid? There’s no need to control myself, I simply don’t have to develop a crush or affair with everyone who’s not disgusting to me.
Also, I’m a bit astonished at the idea that my male friends are my friends because they don’t find me attractive. I think they do but in a casual, not really interested manner since I’m married and most of them too. I think that’s absolutely possible.
@Marcia,
“you’re not really supposed to be on the prowl for potentials.”
I really get your general point. But ‘on the prowl for potentials’ suggests a calculated search for multiple women. It really isn’t like that with me. It is the blurring of emotional boundaries with *one* woman – a friend of 10+ years, with acknowledged glimmers at both ends of that spell. Now, you can put that back at me if you want and say you think that’s worse than the prowling for many. I’m not here to defend all my actions – I never have tried to re my LE. But that’s the issue at hand – I have been naive with one woman, not strategic with many. I certainly won’t go looking for more and I now know thanks to LwL how to recognise glimmers quicker and why and how to nip them in the bud.
@Lovisa
“How about if we all learn to be kind to everyone even if they trigger feelings in us. I don’t think Lim-a-rant should avoid his attractive female friends, but he should control his behavior.”
I agree, and that’s been my method. I can’t totally avoid LO anyway. Apart from any unintentional leakage (I am sure there has been some but it has never been commented on) I have never signalled to my LO any intention of trying to be anything more than her friend, not badmouthed my SO to her, etc. The friendship is as reciprocal as one can be. We are both people that make friends with the opposite sex easier than with our own (thank you to Serial Limerent too for acknowledging that that can be a thing). It’s complicated! LO had been through a bad run with men so I think by being her friend I act as a stabilising male presence. If I was to cast her out of my life for selfish reasons, that wouldn’t feel kind or respectful. I am noticing the feelings diminish a bit now and things are improving with SO – I’m doing OK. I hope that the family situation you have in your life hasn’t escalated any more – it sounds horrible.
@MJ
“Perhaps LaR is a better Man than me”
I doubt that, MJ, and I’m uncomfortable with deeming anyone ‘better’ than anyone else. We all make mistakes at some point, it is what we learn from them and what we do with it, that matters. I can tell you are someone who acknowledges and learns from yours. I still need to do a lot of reflection on mine. I get the potential ‘slippery slope’ you mention and have worked to avoid it by really controlling the signals I give out.
@Mila
“Also, I’m a bit astonished at the idea that my male friends are my friends because they don’t find me attractive. I think they do but in a casual, not really interested manner since I’m married and most of them too. I think that’s absolutely possible.”
Yes, I think so. If I am crude about it, the situation you’re describing is more of a kind of “I wouldn’t hypothetically rule out ‘doing’ her in some circumstance ever” not “I’m desperate to ‘do’ her today”. Occasionally these things can blur and turn into crushes/LE, as you and I have both experienced while married/partnered. I am definitely not putting out a moratorium for the future to say “I will never allow myself to be friends with an attractive woman” (Lovisa, you can rest easy!). More the lesson learned for me is how to quickly recognise when it risks turning complicated or problematic (what @ghostzoned has called ‘The Click’) and getting out quickly and cleanly at that point.
Lim-a-rant,
“It is the blurring of emotional boundaries with *one* woman – a friend of 10+ years, with acknowledged glimmers at both ends of that spell.”
I know this is going to be an unpopular viewpoint, but I think it’s tricky for men and women to be close friends. Doing things together, alone. Calling, texting, sharing personal stuff.
And, personally, I don’t want to expend that kind of energy on a man I don’t want to date or who’s not available.
I don’t mean that I can’t be work friends or activity friends, in a group. Or I have a female friend and I become friends with her husband and the three of us do stuff together sometimes.
But going to dinner and a movie, alone, for example, kind of feels like a date.
Marcia,
I get it. We’re different but it is down to individual choices and what people are happy with. I have boundaries as regards the ‘activities’ you listed and others – things I would do with her, things I would definitely not, things that have got more blurry. Ultimately it is her choice (as a woman) whether to engage with me on the basis I offer (as a partnered man with boundaries). She can choose to walk from having my friendship at any point and I’d understand if she did. If she saw it like you see it, logically she would have done.
Lim-a-rant,
“Ultimately it is her choice (as a woman) whether to engage with me on the basis I offer (as a partnered man with boundaries).”
I think male/female friendships are something of a loophole. Let’s be honest: It’s not like a regular, platonic friendship. In the ones I’ve had, anyway. There’s still that male-female dynamic (though to a lesser extent, obviously, than if we were dating), flirtation, compliments. It feels like a way to get that energy and that dynamic without going full throttle into something physical.
So if I with someone in a serious relationship and they have close female friends, I have to wonder: Can’t I provide that for you? And the second question is: How much of that dynamic is enough?
If you want a platonic friend, get a buddy. That isn’t written to be flippant.
LaR, I think Marcia got you there. The “as a woman” part caught my eye too. Because if it were a normal friendship, there would be none of that “as a woman” business to consider. It would just be a friendship of equals. No talk of considering whether she could be friends with “a partnered man with boundaries”. My friendships with men have usually been pretty casual, rarely have I had a close male confidante. Actually probably just the one: my transferee (years ago and now). And that was after we had slept together(!)
I don’t remember how it was way back then, but nowadays there is definitely that male-female dynamic, I wouldn’t have it any other way! 😉
Trifles,
“Because if it were a normal friendship, there would be none of that “as a woman” business to consider. It would just be a friendship of equals. No talk of considering whether she could be friends with “a partnered man with boundaries”. ”
Exactly. If are wondering if the friend is attracted to you or how you’re going to put up sexual/romantic/physical boundaries… it’s already not a platonic friendship.
When I had close male friends, I think I was getting and wanting (without being totally aware of it) what it is that men provide for women. I don’t mean physically. I mean emotionally. It’s a different than what a woman provides for another women in a close friendship.
Some of these male friends ended up wanting more or expressing feelings or making a pass (yes, some were partnered up). But all I wanted was the attention and the energy and the male-female dynamic.
I wanted part of the pie but not all of it and I think that may have been a bit selfish of me.
I have very solid friendships with my male friends. I am grateful for my male friends. They offer great advice and support. I don’t notice any competitive behavior in my male/female friendships like I notice with female friends (okay maybe a little with my running friends). And something that I absolutely love about my male friends is that they never act like my mother. They never try to correct what they think is bad behavior. I can relax and interact without fear of being corrected. They are significantly more loyal. With a female friend, I can’t predict what she will do next, but male friends are reliably consistent. I wish it wasn’t so difficult for men and women to be friends. Btw, my husband is definitely my best friend.
I marvel at women and girls who prefer female friendships. I don’t understand it. I also think they have a special talent that I lack. It’s something that I am working towards.
Marcia, I think a lot of people feel the same way that you do, but it sounds smothering to enforce those strict rules. I must admit that an old boyfriend had a female friend who he sometimes preferred over me. I couldn’t figure out why he liked her because she wasn’t very likable. I did have the thought that whatever he was getting from her, he should get from me. Later, I discovered that she was his dealer. Since I didn’t use or deal drugs, I couldn’t give him what she was giving him. I don’t think I would have had issues with their friendship except that when he wanted to be with her, I had a sense like I was secondary to her. I didn’t like that feeling. Now I know that he was using drugs and didn’t want me to know about it. Anyway, I think friendships are fine as long as the spouse is the most important person.
Lovisa, that was very insightful about male friends not “correcting” or judging you like female friends often might (not all – I also have very non-competitive, non-judgmental female friends!).
That’s something that I value about my male friends as well. But it could also build a false sense of security. Because without the feeling of being judged I obviously open myself up more, there’s possibly oversharing, we get closer, and someone can get the wrong idea.
I also like how straightforward my male friends are, none of that game-playing that women sometimes do (though again, I think I’ve gotten rid of those female friends and only have the best kind left!). But in general women are much more complicated!
Marcia and Trifles,
It has gone back and forth in this exchange between theoretical discussion of whether or not males and females can be platonic friends, and talking about specifics of my LE situation as a case study.
This is why, on Trifles point, I put the (as a woman) etc. into my last reply. A lot of the chat before that was ‘women do X’ and ‘men do Y’ type stuff. That’s why I added the ‘as a woman’ etc. I wanted it to be a point that contributed to the discussion about male-female friendships in general, not one all about myself.
If we are discussing my situation, it’s a doozy to get me on the fact that my LE is “not like any regular platonic friendship”. I have been here on a limerence support site for months venting about the limerent feelings I have towards her, so of course it isn’t. I started this thread admitting as much. All I have ever contended was that a platonic friendship existed between me and her for ten years between two glimmers. It changed, for sure, and I’ve admitted that. But the change was in my head. What I present to her is different. I haven’t ever asked her or hinted to her in word or physical action that I want any more than friendship (whatever I felt or feel inside – actually I know now that I don’t want more but my altered state of mind has tricked me into thinking I do). I know how wrong that would be and wouldn’t do that. I accept there may have been unavoidable ‘leakage’ but it has never been commented on in real life, apart from by one other friend who called me out.
It’s great that you all have different views about male-female friendships. The diversity of views here is a big strength of the place. But only the two people involved know the dynamics of the relationship between them.
If I reformulate to strip out the controversial bit:
“Ultimately it is their choice whether to engage with me on the basis I offer”
This is true of any friendship between any two humans (unless there is something bad like controlling behaviour going on).
All I can say is that whether LO suspects the feelings I’ve had or not, she has that choice about whether or not to bother with me as a friend, and has always chosen to bother. In fact she seeks my time and company actively, more than I do hers. I have never forced the issue.
So on that basis it tells me she’s happy to be friends. That’s all I’m claiming.
Or – is it your argument that because she doesn’t know my feelings for sure, it is basically a fake friendship? And do you believe then that I would be doing her a favour by severing the ‘friendship’ myself? If she wanted it severed, why wouldn’t she just sever it?
All of this above is a different question from the other one you’re asking Marcia, about how it could feel from my SO’s perspective and where I am in the wrong in seeking friendship from another female. It’s a fair question and one I am willing to discuss more and be held to account for. But it is a different question from “can men and women be platonic friends?”
Lim-a-rant,
“Or – is it your argument that because she doesn’t know my feelings for sure, it is basically a fake friendship?”
No, I didn’t mean to imply that.
” And do you believe then that I would be doing her a favour by severing the ‘friendship’ myself? If she wanted it severed, why wouldn’t she just sever it?”
I never implied you were harming this woman.
I think it’s more … would I want my SO to have a close friendship with a woman he was limerent for? The answer is no.
I’ve never had a friendship with a man that at some point didn’t have less than platonic elements to it. I don’t know if it’s possible not to. Sexual comments, passes made or an SO thinking we were dating or intending to if/when things ended with them.
Marcia,
“I think it’s more … would I want my SO to have a close friendship with a woman he was limerent for? The answer is no.”
That part I wouldn’t even try to argue (look, I know I am dealing with the LwL poster of the year here 🙂 and know when I’m beat). But more seriously I know what you say on this point is true. It’s the toughest bit to deal with – how much to tell SO and when (I have already done bits of it). I am still figuring it out. I am not closed to the idea that I might have to ditch LO as a friend and admit more, to move forward authentically with SO.
Marcia,
“ I’ve never had a friendship with a man that at some point didn’t have less than platonic elements to it. I don’t know if it’s possible not to. Sexual comments, passes made or an SO thinking we were dating or intending to if/when things ended with them.”
It is possible to have a friendship with a man that doesn’t include sexual comments or passes. It is not only possible, but it is wonderful!
Lim-a-rant,
“look, I know I am dealing with the LwL poster of the year here 🙂. ”
That I highly doubt. 🙂 I am Maria’s favorite poster, and as you know … we do have a financial arrangement that MJ, being MJ, tried to jam himself into. #Uninvited 🙂
“I am not closed to the idea that I might have to ditch LO as a friend and admit more, to move forward authentically with SO.”
I don’t have too much to add here, but I don’t think there would be anything wrong with telling your LO the truth if you decide you can’t continue the friendship. What’s wrong with telling her you have developed some feelings (I don’t remember what you’ve already told her) and you can’t be friends? That it’s not a good idea. I think that’s preferable to doing the confusing slow fade. If you’ve been friends for a decade, I think it would be nice to give her some sort of explanation. Though it doesn’t have to be a long explanation. And could even be done over the phone or text.
Lovisa,
“It is possible to have a friendship with a man that doesn’t include sexual comments or passes. It is not only possible, but it is wonderful!”
Didn’t you write that two of your guy friends told you they were attracted to you?
Marcia,
lol…yes. Good point.
Marcia,
“I think that’s preferable to doing the confusing slow fade.”
Yes. Slow fade here would be mean. I haven’t told her a thing to date. If I had to/opted tobexit the friendship then I agree that disclosing feelings is better and more respectful than trying to vanish.
My preference is more like fade to 50% (pre glimmer#2 level). You dont even need to tell me it ain’t realistic – I kind of already know!
Then there is the sort of person she is – honestly the classic ‘good LO’ stereotype. Based on that, I believe that if I did tell her, then 1. she wouldn’t be 100% shocked, 2. she would be more likely to respond with “ok, we can find a way to work with that, let’s discuss” than “thanks for the decade; right, I agree we must never speak again, see ya”. It risks creating a much bigger mess than I’m in now.
Add to that, we have work overlaps. We used to work directly together, now not so directly but still some times we need to collaborate. If these overlaps go (a realistic future possibility) it might fade more naturally.
So for now, circumstances mean that fading it totally is unrealistic and a disclosure risks creating a work situation where other people tittle tattle.
There’s no great exit option here. I’m just musing to answer your point but am not looking for an answer in reply as I know there is no good one.
In sum – LwL wisdom tends to be “don’t disclose to LO” but there is no way I could exit this one kindly and cleanly without it. I have used disclosure to end two past (all be it less persistent) LEs, so I am not averse to it one day.
MJ, being MJ, tried to jam himself into. #Uninvited 🙂
Marcia,
You were handing out free money and I like you just the same, if not more.
#Offended 🙂
I know that I am late the conversation but I think, at least on men’s side, that it is very difficult to be platonic with a woman. I had a huge crush on my wife’s cousin when I first met her, within the first year that we got married. Did Miss Lovisa help me out a lot when I first came here? Do I have a crush on her or am I just happy she has been so helpful to me? LO started out platonic and look where that went. I think, at least for myself, but also looking at the limerent men on this board that we have a hard time compartmentalizing women’s gesture and comments. And look into kindness or politeness more than we should. Momma and I were friends first. While she watched me chase other gals. Instinct/God put waaaaay to much drive in us to “fill the earth”.
MJ,
“You were handing out free money and I like you just the same, if not more.”
Just what every woman longs to hear: I like you just the same.
#HardPass 🙂
MJ,
Look on the bright side.
At least Marcia hasn’t asked you to stop responding to her posts…yet. 🙂
LE,
“At least Marcia hasn’t asked you to stop responding to her posts…yet. 🙂”
Apparently LE is trying to get himself put back on the Naughty Chair. 🙂
“Just what every woman longs to hear: I like you just the same.
#HardPass 🙂”
Marcia,
I didn’t know you felt so strongly about our friendship. Please forgive me for another blatant misunderstanding..
#Confused 🤔🙂
“At least Marcia hasn’t asked you to stop responding to her posts…yet. 🙂”
LE,
She can’t help it. I think deep down she really likes me. She’s just playing hard to get.. 🙂
MJ,
“I think deep down she really likes me. She’s just playing hard to get.”
Nah. I don’t put up much of a fight if I like the guy. 🙂
“Looking at the limerent men on this board that we have a hard time compartmentalizing women’s gesture and comments. And look into kindness or politeness more than we should.”
@Adam,
100%+ agree with you on this one. Gesture alone was probably the most sole reason for my LE and I wonder if I’ll ever be right again.
Because now I read into Lady Friends kindness waaaay more than I probably should. This is just who she is though and it drives me freakin crazy. I try not to fawn all over her when I’m around, but I know I leak like crazy. Since we’re both single, I enjoy the hell out of the chase.. I like to think she enjoys the extra attention and me being me, she’s probably already used to it by now.
The good thing is I know her well enough to know when she’s had enough or not in the mood. That alone keeps me in my place but man is it hard to keep things “light”when I so want to go “next level.”
@Lovisa.
“I must admit that an old boyfriend had a female friend who he sometimes preferred over me. I couldn’t figure out why he liked her because she wasn’t very likable. I did have the thought that whatever he was getting from her, he should get from me. Later, I discovered that she was his dealer.”
I must admit that I found your musings here extremely funny. Funny as in: “That’s a plot twist I didn’t see coming.” She was his … what? 😲
A gifted writer could craft an entire short story around this one paragraph. And the theme of the story could be that things aren’t always what they appear to be on the surface. 🙂
Yesterday evening, I peered out of the kitchen window and thought I saw a fire in my backyard. I started panicking. What could have possibly caught fire? A palm tree? Some fencing? Then I looked closer – nothing was on fire. The ripple of coloured light that I mistook for fire was moonlight reflecting off the swimming pool. 😆
Thanks Sammy, you’re right, it is funny that she was his dealer. I didn’t see that coming until he broke up with me and told me about his drug problem. He didn’t think he could quit drugs and he knew I wouldn’t remain partnered to him if/when I found out about the drugs so he cut things off. It hurt at the time, but now I admire him for it.
I’m glad that your pool-fire wasn’t as serious as you initially thought. Now I’m curious about where you live. California? Florida? Maybe you aren’t even American.
@Lovisa.
“Thanks Sammy, you’re right, it is funny that she was his dealer.”
Dr Bellamy wrote above that he wanted to explore the idea of “dating and mate selection”. Maybe you gave him an unexpected ending to his proposed story? 🤣
Ten Alpha Chad is always seen hanging around Five Girl Next Door. The whole neighbourhood is whispering. “Why is he with her? What does he see in her? It’s not her looks. Why are some girls so lucky?”
Turns out Girl Next Door has developed a nasty little drug habit. Alpha Chad isn’t her paramour, but her dealer. He’s always hanging around because she’s his number-one client. The secrecy around their relationship stems from the fact she’s trying to hide her addiction to chemical substances from family and friends. Alpha Chad enjoys working on the nice, safe, gentrified side of town.
Or perhaps both members of this couple develop limerence for each other. But the limerence partially grows out of the stress of keeping their shared secret i.e. that they are both involved in high-risk behaviour. The risks they both take creates a trauma bond, and heightens the intensity of their otherwise pedestrian romance.
A third scenario could be Girl Next Door has a rescuer complex and wants to help Alpha Chad return to life on the straight and narrow. Perhaps Alpha Chad also falls in love with the woman who wants to save him? He’s tired of life in the fast lane. He wants to retire soon.
Just a throwaway comment. But it can be fun to tie together random, unrelated ideas into a nice little parcel that seems to make sense. Human brains like the certainty that comes with closure. 🙂
@Marcia.
There’s a rumour going around that you’re “Poster of the Year” or “Miss Congeniality” or something. That’s too bad, honey. Really it is. Because I’m up for “Lifetime Achievement Award”. Aren’t you jealous? What, you’re not jealous? Why are you jealous? 🤣
I’ve already prepared my acceptance speech. Do you want to hear it? You haven’t got time to hear it? Oh, fiddlesticks! I’ll tell it to you anyway. It’s a line I’m stealing from drag artist Charles Pierce. He said it while pretending to be screen legend Bette Davis:
“And now I’d like to perform a scene for you … from ALL of my films.”
No, just mucking around. On a serious note, I’d like to say that I’m adding my vote to the ones that have already nominated you “Poster of the Year”. And I’m very proud of all you’ve achieved while at LwL. It’s very hard to combine likeability with … wait, what are your other talents? 😜
Let’s put it another way: I always enjoy reading your posts. Your short posts. Your extremely short posts. Why are they so short? 🙂
Sammy,
How badly do you want to score the Limerent Lifetime Achievement Award?
As Creator and Director of “The Limmys,” I have some influence on who gets what. Being from Chicago, everything’s negotiable. But, everything has to be in US dollars in the form of a donation to the Limerent Emeritus Foundation for Wayward Limerents or to support an endowment to the Limerent Emeritus Chair at the forthcoming Limerence University (LU) to be held by me.
DrL, as Executive Producer and future President of LU, is above such banality (he gets 20%). I snagged the first Lifetime Achievement Award.
And, if Marcia puts me back on the Naughty Chair, I’ll toss her as a judge on Dancing with the Limerents and she’ll have to return all those evening gowns. Two can play at that game.
Sammy!
“Because I’m up for “Lifetime Achievement Award”. Aren’t you jealous? What, you’re not jealous? Why are you jealous? 🤣”
I’m not jealous. They only give the Lifetime Achievement Award to posters who have peaked and are well past their prime posting years. Like a rock star who’s doing a greatest hits tour because no one want to hear his new music. 😉
“I’ve already prepared my acceptance speech. Do you want to hear it?”
I don’t have that much time left on this planet. 🙂
““And now I’d like to perform a scene for you … from ALL of my films.””
LOL. And Better Davis would have done that!
“And I’m very proud of all you’ve achieved while at LwL. It’s very hard to combine likeability with … wait, what are your other talents? 😜”
Is likeability one of my talents? 🙂
“Let’s put it another way: I always enjoy reading your posts. Your short posts. Your extremely short posts. Why are they so short? 🙂”
Because I’m a good editor of my own material. 🙂
LE,
“And, if Marcia puts me back on the Naughty Chair, I’ll toss her as a judge on Dancing with the Limerents and she’ll have to return all those evening gowns. Two can play at that game.”
I’m going to quote Glenn Close in the movie “Fatal Attraction.”
“You play fair with me. I’ll play fair with you.”
Marcia,
lol 😂😂😂
@Limerent Emeritus.
“I snagged the first Lifetime Achievement Award.”
Well, perhaps it’s only fair you snagged the first Lifetime Achievement Award. I mean, you DO have seniority. How old are you now, my friend? Methuselah called. Methuselah who? Methuselah from the Bible, of course. He wants his crossbow back. And his tent. And his favourite sheepskin rug. And his sundial. And his map of the Garden of Eden. 🙂
And not to belabour the point. But how many LOs have you had now? Four LOs? My, my! Such an impressive record! You know what they say – four LOs is four LOs too many. Are you a glutton for punishment or do you just like even numbers? 😜
Whatever wit first grumbled the line “no good deed goes unpunished” was surely thinking of you and your compulsive need to rescue flame-haired damsels in distress. But I think your wife delivered the true zinger of the century when she was duly apprised of the situation: “Good luck – you’re going to need it!” 🙂
Has the Award been handed to you in an official ceremony yet? I understand you have Jaideux reading envelopes at the LImmys? Is this correct? I suspect Jaideux is a very shy, modest, unassuming person. I like Jaideux. I think she’ll need some moral support while doing her job. Maybe I can be Jaideux’s sidekick for the night? 😁
If anyone is delivering speeches, I imagine Marcia will want to edit them for the sake of brevity. We can’t have the event running overtime, can we? Some of us have important rumination to rush back to. Marcia likely has brownies burning in the oven. 🙂
I do have one question about the Limmys. Are you going to feed us? Is it an event for people who believe in eating potatoes or an event for people who only pretend to believe in eating potatoes? Dumb question. Chicago. Of course you believe in eating potatoes. 😜
You know, people say I got fat. People don’t know what they’re talking about when they say I got fat. I didn’t get fat. The couch shrank. And the house. And the car. And every single item in my wardrobe. I used to be a beanstalk. I used to weigh less than a feather. Now I’m three of the nicest men I know. Bulldozers and army tanks daintily move aside to let me waddle past. 🙂
By the way, a quick question: has anyone bothered to tell She-Who-Spells-Her-Name-In-Emojis that moustache-removal cream is a make-believe product? It’s not even sold in Australia. No, I quite understand. I wouldn’t tell her either – ignorance is bliss. 🙂
Sammy, was that an audition for your opening monologue? I pity the fools who are in charge of playing the “wrap it up” music! Their poor fingers! (And poor Jaideaux)
By the way, I’m sure we can get a mustache removal cream maker to be the main sponsor for the televised event.
It’s questionable if that CAT even existed or was she stolen/shipped to Springfield of Ohio? 🥹
Ignorance brings dumb bliss, imagination creates preferred bliss and reverie.
@Triflers
I vote you to be the CEO of that Mustache Remover Incorporation.
Sammy,
” But how many LOs have you had now? Four LOs? My, my! Such an impressive record! You know what they say – four LOs is four LOs too many. ”
I feel the same way about children. Or pets. 🙂
“If anyone is delivering speeches, I imagine Marcia will want to edit them for the sake of brevity.”
No, we’re just going to have the orchestra play over people who ramble on too long. We’re limerents, after all. We have no boundaries. 🙂
Snow, I’m flattered, but no need for me to be CEO. A quick Google reveals lots of very real mustache removal creams (and companies behind them). They are just called “facial hair removal creams”. Not to mention the mustache removal filters that could be even more handy for our online community!
I can however be Chief Liaison Officer (can be understood two ways, so will likely be a double role) in charge of snagging the sponsor, amongst other things.
@Trifles,
Oh, no. Please don’t select and bring any mustache remover cream here; otherwise, WHAT could help some greedy mouths 😝 catch and hide those famous brownies❓
@Sammy
Those would be my brownies! Mine are celebrated in my little circle. 🙂 This is just such an occasion to make them.
Looks like brownies are in shortage, how about some mooncakes 🥮? They’re unique with an egg yolk and lotus seed paste inside, symbolizing harmonious and sensuous unions under the Moon…
@ghostzoned
The survey is very interesting. I wonder why the INF (and to a lesser extent INT) groups are especially prone to limerence. Would love to figure that out. High degree of sensitivity and analytical thinking?
DrL did ask the interesting question about whether IN’s are just more likely to seek/find a limerence website and fill out a survey. But I think there is more to it than that too.
I think it’s good you saw the early warning signs and gray-rocked her, especially if she was exactly your type.
I am interested in your idea of ‘the click’. I haven’t seen it called that before. What does it mean to you? I guess you mean when a glimmer turns into something else -something like “this is a definite opportunity / problem (delete whichever fits in the circumstances)”?
I think it’s because we yearn for that all-or-nothing, fantasy love.
This actually makes us vulnerable to cluster B’s, particularly with their lovebombing.
(search: INFJ narcissist prey, or some such)
https://herway.net/this-is-why-an-infj-is-a-narcissists-most-common-victim/
https://www.jennydobson.com/library/why-infjs-attract-narcissists
https://medium.com/@jenniferarnspiger/this-is-what-its-like-to-be-an-infj-survivor-of-narcissistic-abuse-9097ff4dae0
https://introvertspring.com/infjs-attract-narcissist-personalities/
We’re also willing to put up with a lot more bullshit.
I know that I personally get a frisson of excitement whenever I meet someone new and spot those telltale scratches on the inner wrist..
Not exactly a glimmer, but a recognition that this person (usually a young lady) could be very interesting to me.. and very very dangerous.
(Of course most cluster B’s don’t self harm, and rarely in such an obvious manner, that’s just an example.)
And in some ways, our needs are indeed congruent with cluster B’s, who want something similar, and also eschew social norms (the main difference being that C B’s don’t care who they hurt, and blame others for their bad behaviour).
I’m now safely married in mutual nonlimerence to a very grounded woman.
But I’ve had my share of.. interesting and character building relationships.
Gray rocking is actually quite difficult to do, when you’re trying hard to suppress hyperventilation and palpitations!
So I’m guessing that I wasn’t entirely successful, and my mixed messages perhaps spurred LO’s curiousity.
In the end, I gave her the validation she sought, and I got the NC I needed (but did not want).
The glimmer, for me, is a visual recognition that the person is of high interest to me.
The ‘click’ is a verbal, or auditory cue that I am of high interest to her – it’s not so much what is said, but how.
The energy, so to speak.
I guess, combined, it’s just known as ‘chemistry’.
@Adam,
I am very much like you in the sense that I would get really strong crushes on certain people, and it was very hard to remain platonic. So it does amaze me when women can have completely platonic friendships with men. I just have learned I am not built like that. If a man interests me enough to interact with him, there’s a good chance consciously or subconsciously I would want “all of him.” The good thing that I know about myself is that I am not at all attracted to married men, so many of my coworkers are happily married and we enjoy a healthy coworkership while at work.
@Lovisa,
I wonder if your upbringing with a difficult mother, and my upbringing with a difficult father, has any part in why you really prefer male friendships and I prefer female friendships? Just a thought I had! I tend to have more trust with women because I had a safe, loving relationship with my mother, and maybe you have more trust with men because you had a better relationship eith your father?
LN, I have wondered the same thing. The women in my life (including my sister) were unpredictable and even abusive at times. The men were reliable and kind. I have always felt anxious around women and safe around men. I guess it could go the other way for you if your female caregivers were the reliable ones. Very interesting…
My brother has been reflecting on our childhood because of the situation with my sister. Yesterday he said, “I always thought we had a good childhood, but when I think back on some of the stuff that grandma and mom did to us, I think we were abused.” Then he told me about an incident when my grandmother told him to strip naked and get into the shower then she scrubbed him with a wire-bristle brush. He was 15 years old. I told him that what grandma did was wrong then I told him how she did something similar to me, my sister and our brother who is close to us in age. My grandma said we were dirty because we tan easily and we had spent the whole summer at the pool. I was going into 4th grade at the time. My grandma made all three of us get naked and get into the tub so she could “scrub the filth” off us. She used a Brillo pad on our knees and called us “filthy Indians.” We cried and told her that she couldn’t scrub off our tans. It was awful. When my brother told me about the incident with the wire brush, the only thing that surprised me is that he was 15 when she did that to him. I wasn’t surprised that she did it. I didn’t know that my older brothers were being treated badly by my grandmother, too. I only saw her do it to the siblings and cousins who are close to my age.
LN, I think you are right, but I don’t know how to overcome my mistrust of women.
@Lovisa,
You are welcome to practice your trust in women with Mme– I’m reliable! 😉
And also, Sammy is Australian. But I am from Cali! 🌞
LaR, I was actually debating on an intellectual level, it wasn’t even about your case – just the concepts in the current conversation.
I find male-female friendships interesting. I hope they’re possible, but once you get into a deeper (beyond superficial) level, there are risks involved. And for the record, I am on team “don’t disclose ‘thought crimes’ to SO”. I wish I was the kind who could have a relationship and still enjoy flirtations with others – to spice up my main relationship. I’ve come to understand that would really help in maintaining a long term relationship. But for me, it seems to be all or nothing – if I find someone interesting, I find them reeeaaally interesting.
Hey all,
As a 50 year old woman, I find it fascinating that there are all these friendships out there. Although I have had mixed groups of friends (men and women) all my life, I no longer really have male friends that I do stuff with alone regularly. At work, it sometimes happens that I have coffee with a male friend and it might happen once in a blue moon that us and our SOs will end up at dinner or a gig. Friendships that go beyond work are more and more rare because I spend so much time at work (very demanding job where I work far more than contracted hours).
My non-work friends that I tend to spend time with (and am more emotionally intimate with) are female friendships that I have had for decades, plus new female friendships, other kids mums or friends from work. I don’t see enough of any of my non-work friends (and sometimes their partners). Most of the friends I see regularly are at work and we mostly see each other when we are at work. These can be both men and women but there is not a lot of scope for major emotional intimacy (short coffee break or quick sandwich).
I am fascinated by all the people who are around my age who are cultivating friends of either sex.
To me, a platonic friendship is totally possible; I feel very comfortable socializing alone with them without ever feeling sexually attracted, even if they are good looking. The glimmer occurs in 5 seconds of encountering a total stranger (without them spotting me first) ; either it is there or can’t be ever cultivated even after my attempts with efforts and time. So it’s either 0 or 100% for life time!
But it seems near impossible for men to keep a platonic friendship with me; So I did!do not have platonic, Close male friends; plenty of so-so acquaintance.
@Bewitched
I’m a neurodivergent introvert, so a lot of my friendships are either online or at church/clubs. I may get together now and then with old friends for lunch or dinner, but mostly my interaction is when our groups get together. I also send e-mails to some friends or interact with them on Facebook or other social media. I have a male friend from church who I got close with and e-mail now and then, but even with him we just see each other at church, when he has the time to attend. He’s much younger and I do think he’s hot, but he’s gay, so it’s platonic. 🙂 As for LO–it’s e-mails, the occasional text, and church. Since LO is very attracted to me, I don’t ask for more interaction than that, because I *know* what would happen if we went off alone together for long….Best to keep it to church and church functions!
My in-person friend interactions aren’t a ton, but for me they are usually enough. They get me out of the house. My online friends are all over the Net, and a lot of them are male, but platonic (even though some get flirty). Since we’re mostly pixels on-screen to each other, I doubt there’s any real crushing going on there. One online friend actually moved to my town but he and his wife turned out to be toxic, so we had to break off relations with them, unfortunately.
Hi Trifles,
Thank you for replying and clarifying.
I agree with what you’re saying deep down. I know, despite never stepping over certain lines, that the way LO has hijacked my brain means it is ‘not just platonic’, and feel regret about where it has gone. I have been aware of the slippery slope I’m on and have been fighting it like the clappers for ages. Truth is, LO would lose respect for me if I did overstep lines anyway – she is very ‘girl code’ (and rightly so). It just has to sit there in the background and I have to be strong while it runs its course.
Thanks for saying about “team don’t disclose thought crimes”. We can’t help where our thoughts take us. I have learned such a lot. In hindsight, I steadily let my guard down in the run up to glimmer#2 and left it ripe to happen. Won’t be doing this again.
The decade of ‘platonic friendship’ before that is the really interesting quirk. Was it always destined to end as it did, even though it took all that time to get there?!
My SO has always allowed me platonic female friendships. We are not that couple who expect to get everything we need in life from the other. All the other said platonic friendships are different (actually platonic). It is just this one that went nuts.
Snow,
“The glimmer occurs in 5 seconds of encountering a total stranger”
I am coming round to this idea, but for me it is more like a pre-glimmer that then can go somewhere or nowhere (to full glimmer) based on personality and the person’s actions. Where that first part isn’t there, nothing personality wise is that likely to trigger glimmer further down the line.
I also have a platonic single female friend.
No chance of attraction between us.
Used to have a couple more single female friends, all through work, but had to distance myself from them, for SO’s sake.
One is a lot of fun, flirty.. and freshly divorced. Zero interest in romance, at least from me.
The other is ostensibly good looking (as am I, imho), but not each other’s type. People at work had tried to ship us once, which we could laugh about, but understandably SO didn’t feel comfortable.
There are few male friends who I’d open up to.
Only one could I call non-judgemental.
I’m not sure if being male or female gives any particular qualities to the relationship, I think it’s just about compatible personalities.
I don’t think the gender or sexual orientation matters.
I think all that matters, for friendship, is the connection – without compilation of romance.
So yeah, having male + female friendship is totally possible.. so long as there’s no potential romantic interest.
(ie not actually sexually compatible)
@Lim-a-rant.
Here are some more thoughts for you. I think I remember reading you are in the limbo stage of limerence, correct? Where on the limerence flow-chart do you think limbo is located exactly? Do you think it might be just before crystallised limerence? I.e. late honeymoon phase where you realise things probably aren’t going to pan out with LO but you don’t want to give up the highs yet?
From what I’ve read online, some people in crystallised limerence come home from work and scream into pillows. I know it sounds really silly and funny. But it’s not a fun feeling to someone who’s actually in that headspace, and can’t get out of that headspace. Maybe that’s the ultimate fate people are trying to help you avoid?
I.e. maybe what other limerents are trying to convey to you in various clumsy ways is: “Don’t let limerence spin out of control to the point where you’re coming home from work and screaming in pillows because you can’t control your feelings of mental agony, etc”. It’s a slippery slope that ends in … pillow-screaming at best.
(Pillow-screaming = profound feelings of sadness and longing. And I think plenty of anger and aggression mixed up in there too. But the anger/aggression is kind of impotent/infantile in nature – the kind of rage an infant would have if denied the comfort of its mother’s breast for too long. It’s a feeling of not ever being able to get comfortable in one’s own skin no matter what one does. It’s not an enviable state. And it’s a state well worth avoiding if one can).
I did my fair share of pillow-screaming as a teenager. It wasn’t dignified back then. I’m sure it’s even less dignified in a 50-year-old. It’s certainly not something one can do in front of one’s spouse and offspring – not without creating feelings of alarm and concern.
Perhaps a good question for limerents to ask themselves is: “If I truly love my LO so much, why do my feelings of love for this man/woman make my life feel unbearable? Why do I feel like I’m dying? Why do I feel like I’m drowning?”
Wishing you well, buddy. Not being preachy or anything. I just wanted to explain the opposition to limerence you may sometimes encounter, and why it might be difficult to understand such opposition if you’ve never screamed into a pillow. The LO isn’t to blame for the suffering. It’s the addiction itself that makes people miserable. But no one really sees addiction coming until it’s too late.
Of course, you’re an adult and are free to live out your fantasy life as you see fit, since fantasy alone doesn’t hurt others. People who warn you off limerence, however, are trying to do you a favour. 🙂
Trifles,
If you search the archives below and search for “friends,” you get 4 hits.
There was a great article on Thought Catalog several years ago, https://thought.is/can-a-man-and-a-woman-really-have-a-platonic-relationship/.
Lai says, “The truth is, they may never do anything physical in life. They may never cross the line. But a relationship can never be truly platonic if you have to set up boundaries. A relationship can never be truly platonic if you have to adjust your feelings. A relationship can never truly be platonic if you have to pretend that you are happy with the way things really are…when deep down—you want something more.”
This should be less of a problem for unattached limerents unless your LO is, say, a coworker, where disclosure can have catastrophic consequences.
This is exactly where I was with LO #4. In her goodbye, LO #4 said that I couldn’t keep things platonic. I agreed with her and quoted the lines about boundaries and adjusting feelings in my response.
Everybody’s different. I fall into the “exes are exes for a reason” camp. Two of my LOs are exes. An LO may or not be an ex, but to me a non-ex LO is worse because that reason(s) are different and there are often unresolved questions associated with the decision.
Like anything else, what doesn’t work for some people can work for others. And, like most things in life, there are unintended consequences and potential risks involved.
At some point, you decide whether to roll the dice or not.
Now I wonder at the frequent usage of the word „platonic“. I wouldn’t describe my male friendships as platonic because they are not close/intense enough. I always thought platonic is a form of intense love without physical aspects, but still quite intense.
I don’t have that kind of friend, neither male nor female. I‘m close and intense with my SO and he‘s my best friend too, but obviously not platonic; my other friends are more casual in varying degrees. Some are clearly work friends, with two I have infrequent contact but can talk to them/love them more than some I see often, etc.
A friendship with a man in the intensity of platonic love, I think that’s not quite possible for me, either me or the friend wouldn’t be able to keep it free of physical elements.
I still can have quite warm, affectionate usual friendships with men.
P.s. I mean, the closest male friend I had was LO, and as the friendship intensified because of his impending moving away, I developed limerence. Before that, all was good, warm, but not intense platonic love.
Mila, I think the word platonic, as it’s used in everyday life, simply means: non-romantic. I.e. friendship.
@LaR,
“I am coming round to this idea, but for me it is more like a pre-glimmer that then can go somewhere or nowhere (to full glimmer) based on personality and the person’s actions. Where that first part isn’t there, nothing personality wise is that likely to trigger glimmer further down the line.”
For me, there is no pre- or post-glimmer, it’s just one Glimmer that was very raw, instinctual, out of blue, out of total expectation or judgment… In 5 seconds. In Sammy’s words, “It’s the Unconscious that made a choice” for me, not my logical mind.
In hindsight, in that 5 seconds I saw something very FAMILIAR, like seeing a piece of myself, in LO’s eyes. Only eyes and their expressions in their “natural” states (without spotting me first) matter, nothing else. If he has spotted me first, even without reacting, then my glimmer would not take place. I think I know why this….
Later, where this rare glimmer would lead, I’m very similar to your ways. With glimmer, a relationship (not platonic) may or may not develop; without it, nothing, except platonic friendship, could ever been cultivated. In all cases, I chose firmly walking away, leaving no false hopes to the other side. (Most of them were annoying without a strong sense of SELF or inspiring traits.)
In the latter, men appear gender neutral to me, I would not blink my eyes if they strip off their clothes in front of my naked eyes (proven to be true unexpectedly). So I think I can safely say my Glimmer comes from my DNA… nothing in the civilized world could alter its BLIND aim.
There were three men yesterday hitting on tired me: at work, passing by a restaurant promotion for a free drink, and after tutoring a single father’s 6 yrs kid… I had to find different excuses to “run”…
L.E, that’s a good, albeit short, article you linked. I meant exactly the same phenomenon of starting to feel really “safe” and “seen” with the friend, and thus letting down one’s guard.
I’m not sure if you were referring to “my case” or just my general musings. I know my current “friendship” is not exactly a normal friendship, and he knows it too. But we’re making do with – not the cards we’re given – but the dice we’ve rolled.
As for your comment about exes, I wouldn’t call my transferee an ex because we were never together. Just a short fling bookended by much longer friendship. A relationship never developed due to distance, but also, I think, because there wasn’t enough passion (i.e. limerence?). I’m wondering if I can still build it up into limerence in my head now…
But somehow I think I can talk myself out if it (because of the missing passion before). There I understand what you mean by exes being less dangerous as (potential) LO’s. I’ve read that book already, I know the plot – it could never be as exciting as an unopened book.
“The truth is, they may never do anything physical in life. They may never cross the line. But a relationship can never be truly platonic if you have to set up boundaries. A relationship can never be truly platonic if you have to adjust your feelings. A relationship can never truly be platonic if you have to pretend that you are happy with the way things really are…when deep down—you want something more.”
This very true. If you realize you are holding back, not being yourself, realizing the behavior you desire is the wrong behavior, or feel guilt over anything you have said or acted out; that indeed is not a healthy platonic friendship. When others can witness the change in your behavior and personality that’s another red flag.
My worse red flag that I ignored and tried to justify was giving gifts. Whether it be something I think would like or buying her favorite foods and drinks and surprise her with them. And then lie to myself it was for everyone else in the office. Like $50 at an expensive coffee shop that was her favorite spot by buying everyone something so it didn’t look like special treatment for her. Giving gift to someone shouldn’t make you feel guilty if you know it is okay to do so.
Hey all,
Limerent Emeritus said “a non-ex LO is worse because that reason(s) are different and there are often unresolved questions associated with the decision.”
I can see that an LO who has not been an ex would indeed be ‘worse’ and harder to get over. This is the case for me and I imagine that the unresolved nature of a non-disclosed LO must be one of the most difficult cases in limerence.
To those people who have had multiple LEs, what do you think marks one of your LOs out as being the most difficult to get over? Or were they all more or less the same? The reason I ask is that I have only had one LE and it has been devastating. Although I am coming out of it now, I cant imagine doing this twice. And I can’t imagine every being totally over him. Is that ever true?
I mean, I have seen people post that they woke up one say and it was just gone, somehow. I cant imagine that ever happening to me.
Are you guys still in thrall to any of your LOs, even a little bit, for example do you think you could fall again if exposed to them? And if so, why / what was it about them do you think that caused this to be the case?
@Bewitched
I think the hardest to get over were the abusive ones because of all the trauma they left in their wake. It took me many years to heal. The nicer ones, whether we dated or not, I could still have pleasant memories of them.
As for whether they could start up again–I have occasionally felt little sparks over the years for some of them. Recently I looked up one LO on Facebook–At 60 years old, he’s still hot, so yeah, I felt some sparks for a few days remembering him. We live in different counties and haven’t seen each other for years, but we were very close and flirty once, and I can see that boiling up again.
“I have only had one LE and it has been devastating. Although I am coming out of it now, I cant imagine doing this twice.”
@Bewitched,
This is where I believe I am at this point. My one true glimmer, beyond a doubt was over LO. There’s just no getting around and yes most devastating to say the least. Just by its failure at almost every turn. I also often wonder if I will ever be totally over her because the whole idea surrounding her still intrigues me. I’m also pretty sure if we were still working in the same building, in close proximity to each other, I’d still be trying my luck. Perhaps even being worse off and making an even bigger fool of myself. I’ll probably never know.
What I do know too is I can’t do this limerence thing twice. Lady Friend is awesome and in so many ways could make for a fantastic LO. But not for me. I struggle enough trying to just be a good, simple and trusting friend to her and I’m really grateful for getting things to where they are. I just don’t know if I can keep it truly platonic and not try to step things up..
I feel often like the potential is there to advance things but I’m not pushing anything or becoming bothersome to her about it because I also know she’s not ready for it. It just drives me crazy because I still catch her checking me out at times when I least expect it. When she smiles at me or looks deep into my eyes, I want to pass out. It’s such a high.
I tell myself that’s not glimmer. It’s not, it can’t be. This person doesn’t move my emotional hard wiring like LO did. Is this wrong? Will I never know??
Hi Bewitched,
interesting question.
I count three LEs, and I transferred from one to another. They were each the ropes I pulled myself out of the last LE.
I think there will always be a residue of past attraction somewhere in the brain, heart or wherever such things are stored. I really would love it if LO 1 would leave work and I would never see him again. Not only because he reminds me of my mistakes, but because he really isn’t a good person, he‘s insufferable and I cannot stand more than 2 min conversation with him anymore, I completely misjudged him back then. But in rare moments, I can still feel the physical pull and can see what I liked, and even feel affection. That’s true for all three, but since I’m still friends with the other two, it’s more astounding to me in the case of this guy.
I’m sure I won’t be limerent for him ever again, this fire has burnt down. But then, there was mutual disclosure. I cannot really compare that to the other 2. Mutual disclosure is very hard to get over, but when it’s over, it really is, there is no unfinished business.
With the other two I‘m not so sure. LO 2 has still a special place in my heart, and I‘m glad he left town , found a woman and now just got his first child.
I think, when I let someone into my heart, there’s always a tiny little place for them forever, and I also mean exes whom I haven’t been limerent for, who were just „normal“ boyfriends. It might be the neuronal pathway thing Dr L talks about, ways that I have trodden down but chosen not to walk anymore, but they are still there. I just choose not to walk on them anymore, and the important thing is, that I’m now in a state of mind where I am capable of choosing.
Bewitched,
“what do you think marks one of your LOs out as being the most difficult to get over?”
Challenge accepted, I will take a punt at this.
I have three past crushes or LOs who I want to mention (even though you only asked for one!). With all these three I think I could backslide if they came back into my life (they won’t). With any others I am pretty confident not. The durations since I have seen these three women are 28, 25 and 13 years. I will call them LO1, 2 and 3 for ease (LO4 is the current one for future reference but not going to bring her into this post!). There are other candidates for the list but this is nice and neat and tidy and they are the strongest ones, so maybe the others are better described as crushes.
I will say some common points to the three. The initial glimmers were the closest things to ‘shazams’ (to use Marcia’s word) that I have had and more physical in nature than other glimmers. None were consummated, they all had disclosures of a kind, all closed off with ‘unfinished business’ and none of them ended badly.
LO1 – undisclosed in words (I was single but too shy) but I leaked it all over the shop, and mutual friends said bits, so she knew alright. We just drifted apart as life has a habit of doing, leaving stuff unresolved.
LO2 – the strongest and the one I am certain would trip me up if I met her again. I asked her out more than once and occasionally we had casual drinks, other times she ducked it. Never went any further. Years later after I was in a LTR, she came onto me really heavy at a work event, tried to kiss me and said “isn’t this what you wanted all along?”. I didn’t go there as I was coupled by then, but it was a fight not to. It proved she knew all along and I got a degree of reciprocation back but at a point I couldn’t act, where I didn’t get the reciprocation earlier when I could act. Like a disclosure in the end. Very frustrating situation – don’t give it much thought now but when I do, it still irks me as “promised land left unexplored”. Again just drifted rather than any conscious NC decision.
LO3 – whirlwind summer thing at work and even though we were both unavailable, it ended with her disclosing feelings and me in return, the night before she moved away. We agreed NC was the only way and stuck to it apart from one failed attempt each to ‘circle back’.
The ones easier to get over either faded naturally (feelings weakened), were snuffed out by an unreciprocated disclosure, or I had a few transfers. One really bad ending with someone I now know was a narcissist.
I’ve rambled but does this answer your question? Hope there is some insight in there somewhere!
@Sammy,
“People who warn you off limerence, however, are trying to do you a favour. 🙂”
I get this completely. I have not been offended with anything anyone on LwL has said to me. I was nervous to start posting because I thought I might get negative responses but it hasn’t happened. Some people want a bit of a spar, but I like a spar too and nobody here has attacked me personally. I get where other limerents come from and the pain many experience.
“Where on the limerence flow-chart do you think limbo is located exactly? Do you think it might be just before crystallised limerence? I.e. late honeymoon phase where you realise things probably aren’t going to pan out with LO but you don’t want to give up the highs yet?”
A couple of things first. We need to work out a shared reference point for ‘crystallised limerence’. I believe DrL uses it for the bit after the glimmer where you realise ‘this is definitely an LE’. But I think you mean crystallised more in the sense of the Neurosparkle article we discussed before (when limerence becomes problematic and more painful than good).
Let’s go with the Neurosparkle sense for now. I have no clue how long these phases can take. I will explain events in my LE over a ~18 month cycle. This seems a longish time. One take on it would say I have been through all the phases, another says it is just a long honeymoon phase with the worst stuff still to come. I never had a realistic sense that LO and I would get together, so don’t have as much getting over the ‘not panning out’ to do as Dr Bain suggests on Neurosparkle.
Let’s imagine the LE as a slot machine that pays out intermittent dopamine rewards. These are the phases I have had:
Phase 1 – paying into machine almost without consciously knowing I was doing it – regular, fairly predictable and growing dopamine rewards.
Phase 2 – rewards get less regular and I have to pay in more to get them. By then, I know I’m doing it and know I shouldn’t be
Phase 3 – More of a hell phase – the rewards still come but much less predictably and at more cost. Feel like I have lost the manual for how to play the machine.
Phase 4 – I start to realise how to play the machine again – lower costs, lower rewards, but more predictable and affordable.
I don’t know for sure yet if phase 4 is just a dip on the up part of the limerence cycle (ie the worse crystallisation is still ahead) or more than the cycle has run its course and I can get out of it soon.
After phase 1 and 2 I have been quite “mind over matter” about it and mostly (but not always) my executive brain has won out.
If the machine was taken away I would miss the dopamine rewards a lot, but I think with time I could live without it.
I have never reached a (literal) pillow-hitting point but have had a lot of moments where my brain is hijacked by LO and I can’t tune her out or concentrate properly on anything else. This has now diminished a bit. I would have once got hung up on every little detail of communication between us (exaggeration but like: “she hasn’t replied after 5 minutes, what have I done wrong?”) but I worry less about such things now and just see it more as ‘normal communication quirks between normal people’.
Thanks for your other replies. The language hat-tip I appreciate, the Myers Briggs I will get back to you on when I have time.
Over to you, Mr Lifetime Achievement!!
@Bewitched,
I’d like to attempt to address your challenging questions, only from my experience, of course —
“I can see that an LO who has not been an ex would indeed be ‘worse’ and harder to get over.”
Not necessarily for me, who did not have SO in most of my crushes and small “LEs”. I could not call them ex, either, even after they “reciprocated” with either body or mind. I rarely felt truly connected with them during those LEs. Some remained enigmatic, most had disappointing/insufferable flaws upon a close look.
“This is the case for me and I imagine that the unresolved nature of a non-disclosed LO must be one of the most difficult cases in limerence.”
If LO is a decent one overall and remains a certain degree of enigmatic, it’s harder to get over, regardless disclosed or not. For me, only good LO memories stay in time and space, while negative ones, at best, passes the mind like gray clouds serenely.
“To those people who have had multiple LEs, what do you think marks one of your LOs out as being the most difficult to get over?”
If that LO genuinely cares for our wellbeing, not his/her own first. But I found this question seems to be focusing on LO, not on possible causes or situations of our LEs. All my LEs had something to do with my cptsd; however, if my symptoms were worse in one LE, then that LO was harder to get over because I clung him more for magical solutions. Otherwise, my more sounding mind could cut LO/LE off like a quick sword cutting through tangled hemp.
“Or were they all more or less the same?”
They are more or less the same, depending on our mental states and life situations for the time being. They did not ask for or chase after our mysterious glimmer or XXX-sized infatuation. Our brain started the whole process for whatever reasons.
“The reason I ask is that I have only had one LE and it has been devastating. Although I am coming out of it now, I cant imagine doing this twice. And I can’t imagine ever being totally over him. Is that ever true?”
Every limerent’s LE is different, we could only compare with our own previous LEs. If this is your only one, it’s hard to know whether you’d have another one or to predict how this one will finally end.
One thing I can anticipate is that after the learnings in LwL, our LEs, respectively, would end differently than prior to LwL time. If I had ignorantly limerented from one to another before coming to LwL, now after my cptsd has got healed a lot, I would not fall in another LE for the same CAUSE and it would be one BY CHOICE, since I already know a lot about LE. I may have new Glimmers, like the one with Romeo back in Feb. but I really believe that I would not slip into another LE.
“I mean, I have seen people post that they woke up one say and it was just gone, somehow. I cant imagine that ever happening to me.”
Everyone limerent, is different. There is no scientific formula on how each one could specifically get over their LE. Based on my bias, I simply do NOT believe or can be convinced that one could just wake up one morning and his/her LE is gone, unless s/he is a robot with an actual button to push/click.
“Are you guys still in thrall to any of your LOs, even a little bit, for example do you think you could fall again if exposed to them?”
When I got over with my previous LOs, even good ones, that’s like the bones (of LE) were even dissolved under soil; but good memories still there without causing any sensations; they became facts. Although my xLO still appears in my dreams, I don’t feel/think I’m in “thrall” to him. I dream about ghosts here, you can’t say I’m in “thrall” to faceless ghosts or their words.
Thinking about what one would feel can be vastly different from actually feeling when encountering LO (again). At least, that was how it happened to me: I thought I would feel this or that way when I bump into LO or sit down with him for tea/talk; but, my actual feelings were so disappointingly different each time from what I had anticipated…. LE baseless “imagination” is better to stay forever inside limerents’ knucklehead; trying to actualize them would be a disaster, I’m convinced.
“And if so, why / what was it about them do you think that caused this to be the case?”
Hmmm… LO focused question again. I don’t think it’s about them, it’s about in what mental/emotional states we would be when we meet them again. If we are mentally sounding, we could be very affectionate and loving without LE tendency. If our life happens to be in some challenging situations or we are dealing with some psychological issues, such as boredom, low-grade depression, or fear for aging/death, or a vague polygamous taste for a LO besides SO, etc, etc…. then we may fall back with an old LO again.
I’m in much more relaxed and pleasant mood nowadays — nothing to expect or anticipate or anxious about, thus able to create a bit when an occasion calls.
Bewitched,
I want to add something to my previous answer that I think might be more helpful to you.
The ex LEs/LOs I described sit pleasantly in the back of my mind. I mentioned the frustration of unexplored terrains, but this only is a light occasional frustration with time and distance. Other than that, I can draw
upon the experiences for pleasant reverie if I choose, but I don’t feel negativity about either the experiences or the XLOs.
If you can complete the transition out of your LE, you too could feel this way. Just nice memories of a nice person in your past.
@Snow,
It sounds from various bits you have posted like you know very instantly if you could get attracted to a guy or not, and that also (lately and longer term) you have had quite a lot of unwanted attention from men who don’t fall in that group! (Ruling out many platonic friendships)
If you thought of all the good qualities of your XLOs and then the worse qualities you’d want to avoid, what would you come up with? It is a rhetorical question – not trying to ask you to answer it here if you don’t want. I daresay you have done this exercise before. I think it can help you spot good opportunities quicker and close bad ones down quicker. There are good men (or a good man) waiting out there for you somewhere, it is just about being able to find them more efficiently!
Tongue in cheek but a male friend used to joke about this issue and say “There is one person for all of us the world. But she probably lives in Tahiti” (clarification – this joke was not against people from Tahiti. It was because Tahiti was about the furthest and most remote point in the world from where we lived)
It is great to hear you are going through an LO free phase and seem to be in a good place in yourself though. Keep the various bits of inspiration coming!
LaR, I know that was just a joke, but oh wow, there are probably thousands of good matches out there for me. And yet I might decide that in the end I would prefer to not be so tightly coupled (living together for example) with anyone.
It’s a cliche but it’s true – it’s about choosing the particular person day after day (and then one day not anymore, as it happens with me). Even the “perfect” choices wind up showing sides of themselves or evolving, as we do, into something we have to wrestle with ourselves to put up with. (Or we ourselves evolve or just annoy the hell out of them.)
@Trifles
“It’s a cliche but it’s true – it’s about choosing the particular person day after day (and then one day not anymore, as it happens with me). “
Maybe this is my ESL thingy, each time I hear the word “choose” for a potential mate, I could not help think of a product/object, which is what we go shopping for. I went through two small wedding ceremonies (one for registration and one for family and friends) and marriage vows. Nowadays I don’t believe scared, chosen vows could necessarily make relationship grow and last, like those purchased, finished products/objects, unless they are plants and pets which I love.
“Even the “perfect” choices wind up showing sides of themselves or evolving, as we do, into something we have to wrestle with ourselves to put up with. (Or we ourselves evolve or just annoy the hell out of them.)”
Exactly! No one was, is or will be perfect, and all qualities are relative depending on speculating eyes, as for a pink elephant. They and we all HELPLESSLY evolve and can possibly grow into someone, for better or worse, who we could have never previously imagined. If we cannot keep up/sync with our potential partner’s growth, we would “just annoy the hell out of them, and vice verse. Then a “perfect” match/union, aloof or vowed, would naturally break.
I was annoyed deeply when being “treated” as a potential “object” (by myself as well) so I have stopped “choosing” — off dating apps for more than a decade — “selling” myself with limited words and “buying” potential dates based on their verbal self-promotion 🥸. I tried and learned hard ways that I absolutely cannot ‘FALL’ in a desirable crush if I know a man’s face before meeting him. As I told LaR, all potential LOs come from strangers in unexpected situations/settings, totally out of my choice… I admit I love/d this adventurous nature of our ever unpredictable human life.
I was/am never FOMO… We Easterners in general believe in fate in the domain of romantic partnership; and I’m even more of an odd 🎱 even in COO.
@LaR,
“It sounds from various bits you have posted like you know very instantly if you could get attracted to a guy or not”
Yes, it’s a “black-or-white” moment for 5 seconds, no grayish color in between; no flipping side later. There was a literal “click” inside my head, as if a tiny particle just zoomed through inside, or perhaps, an extra beat or a missing beat in heart? I never quite understand why I was this way; how on earth my DNA drive or the Unconscious had its own 👁️ ⁉️ Now, after learning about LE, I wonder what would happen in the future when I randomly glance at some guys’ eyes….
“also (lately and longer term) you have had quite a lot of unwanted attention from men who don’t fall in that group! (Ruling out many platonic friendships)”
I might sound arrogant and impertinent again: the majority of my life was trying to run/stay away from unwanted attention, which even forced me to change from an extrovert to an introvert during my teen years. I could well qualify as a “Sensor” in terms of my sensing ability, but I rarely cared for (scared of) boys/men’s attention, unless my glimmer already “picked” them up first.
Most of the time, my best friend was literature/poetry. Something on me (not sure exactly what) had made most boys/men I encountered sadly unable to keep a platonic friendship with me, except some rare creative type (perhaps 1 out of 100❓) — their creativity is more important to them than anything/anyone else. I felt very comfortable with them.
“If you thought of all the good qualities of your XLOs and then the worse qualities you’d want to avoid, what would you come up with?”
Without that Glimmer, they could be a walking god but would have absolutely NO effect on me! In that first sight I seemed to have irrationally sensed whether he is —
Cultured/uncouth, feminine/masculine, subtle/direct, gentle/rough, sentimental/rational, vulnerable/stoic, insecure/confident, (im)possible to tear, curious/stuck up, knowledgeable/ignorant, altruistic/selfish, modest/showy, energetic/sluggish, sincere/cynical, upbeat/laidback, humorous/serious…
Appearance, hotness/sexiness had limited effect to my Glimmer, as long as mustache 🥸 is absent. A lot of “sexiness” in mainstream seems to be too wild/uncouth for my 👁️ ; many could not carry conversations intelligently or culturally, let alone artistically create.
“I daresay you have done this exercise before. I think it can help you spot good opportunities quicker and close bad ones down quicker.”
Not really; the vague list helps little in telling who would be glimmering in my odd eyes. Once it took place, I also could quickly detect something missing; one or two casual sentences could reveal something about one, eg. “I like American movies, because I’m an American.” What does that say to you?
“There are good men (or a good man) waiting out there for you somewhere, it is just about being able to find them more efficiently!”
You’re very optimistic! As a 50% Stoic, I see it as a fact: there is NO one out there waiting me, why should they even wait for anyone? Are they (we) finished “products”? Isn’t it best just naturally live/grow one’s life according to one’s nature and cultivated tastes?
“There is one person for all of us the world. But she probably lives in Tahiti”
It’s Stoic to look at a default of the reality here — he may live in Tahiti or under my nose, no one knows. Fate has her own whims. The challenge is to make one’s own life maximumly fulfilling even if s/he does not exist or never comes across one’s path.
“It is great to hear you are going through an LO free phase and seem to be in a good place in yourself though. “
LO was taken away by Fate, nothing I could do about it despite of the mental resistance to let go this dramatic/traumatic chapter of my life. Time and distance always work their own wonders! As I repeated before, one’s Unconscious always goes against one’s wills/wishes; the more I want to hold onto something, the more/sooner it slips away through my fingers…. It’s indeed a sad nature.
From a Buddhistic perspective, if one just patiently watches and stares at one’s pain, whatever kind it is, it will go away. You see what has happened to Bewitched’s LO/LE.
Hope you enjoy a fulfilling weekend with your SO!
@Snow,
Hope you had a nice weekend. Have just had a few days of leave, done some fun stuff with SO and our friends and charged my batteries up a bit!
“”… how on earth my DNA drive or the Unconscious had its own 👁 Now, after learning about LE, I wonder what would happen in the future when I randomly glance at some guys’ eyes….”
Your list of what you can learn about a man from the eye contact in those first few seconds of meeting him is pretty incredible 🧐. It doesn’t sound like the weirdest thing I’ve ever heard, as eyes can really ‘talk’ such a lot. Do those initial sensings nearly always prove to be right? I’d love to know (in the obvious scenario in my life) about whether what I think I can read in the eyes is accurate. But it is most likely more fun and safer to just try and interpret it myself and not know 🙉.
“Something on me (not sure exactly what) had made most boys/men I encountered sadly unable to keep a platonic friendship with me, except some rare creative type (perhaps 1 out of 100❓) — their creativity is more important to them than anything/anyone else. I felt very comfortable with them.”
I would have guessed it would be the creative, sensitive, cultured types that you’d be most comfortable with – the love of poetry, music etc is a big ‘tell’.
“one or two casual sentences could reveal something about one, eg. “I like American movies, because I’m an American.” What does that say to you?”
I don’t know if I’ve got your point but it hints to me that you’d feel the person follows the herd, and that its effect on you would be: 🏃♀️🏃♀️
“You’re very optimistic! As a 50% Stoic, I see it as a fact: there is NO one out there waiting me, why should they even wait for anyone? Are they (we) finished “products”? Isn’t it best just naturally live/grow one’s life according to one’s nature and cultivated tastes?”
Ok, I could have avoided that if I had thought more carefully about my wording. I don’t really mean ‘WAITING out there for you’, just ‘out there for you’. Agreed that we’re never finished products but fluid and ever-changing. And as we change, so our (collective) SOs might change with us, or not, and both outcomes are OK. And yes, it is indeed best to live life for ourselves first. The irony is that potential SOs are more likely to cross our path when we are living authentically for ourselves and when we aren’t looking too hard.
I’m 100% not saying find anybody for the sake of it, or compromise. I’m just saying don’t rule out pleasant surprises, if or when you feel open to them in future. I can see how experiences of limerence (unrequited or unsaid ones) could be enough to put people off the dating game forever. But I can also see how limerence teaches us valuable lessons about who we are, what we want and how to get it (with or without the involvement of another person in that).
“From a Buddhistic perspective, if one just patiently watches and stares at one’s pain, whatever kind it is, it will go away. You see what has happened to Bewitched’s LO/LE”
Yes, I am working on a similar approach, as you’ve observed. Hopefully there comes a time for all of us here where the pain is gone (without us trying to force it out as that would be counterproductive) and we don’t have to anticipate other pain to replace it. It seems you’ve come a long way on that journey since arriving at LwL and I really hope that continues 🙂
@Lim-a-rant.
I’ll give you my thoughts, so you can have one more perspective to add to your collection.
Initially, my attraction to LO wasn’t about looks at all. I think he glimmered for me because he seemed to embody my LO archetype to perfection. It seems my LO archetype is male ESTP. I call this archetype “the Class Clown”. But the more adult names are “the Doer” and “the Entrepeneur”.
This archetype is charismatic, funny, smart, blunt, achievement-oriented, natural athletes, good coordination. Not good at humanities. Not good with abstract thought. May or may not have a secret sensitive side. 🙄
I think ESTPs tend to be “magnetic” regardless of looks. (Madonna and Angelina Jolie are two female ESTPs). This magnetism is probably what people think of when they say somebody is “hot”. My LO was also good-looking in addition to being magnetic. In grade nine, a group of classmates were poring over photos from music camp, and they came across images of my LO and thought my LO would be “gorgeous but only if he were a girl”. (A backhanded compliment, if ever I’ve heard one!) 🤣
I think my attraction to LO built slowly over time. But he was the one who initially breeched my boundaries. When we were playing water polo in eighth grade, he told me to throw the ball to him so he could score. I’m not an athlete. I’m not a good swimmer. And I can’t throw for peanuts. But I closed my eyes, flung the ball in his general direction, and hoped for the best. Like a merman on anabolic steroids, he rose up out of the water and caught the ball. I can’t remember whether he scored a goal or not, but I remember feeling very happy that I had managed to do something that apparently pleased him. I think he said something to me like “Good job!”
The worst part of the story – I wasn’t even on his team! (Whoops!) 😊
Another time, in Art class, we were all sitting quietly, drawing pictures. And my LO got up out of his chair, bounded over to my table like an overexcited puppy, and made a big show of looking at what I was drawing. He liked what I was drawing. (A native frog, freehand). I think I was very touched that such an attractive, confident boy would waste time acknowledging my existence.
I used to watch my LO during our shared Physical Education class because he had such incredible natural athleticism, and I was entranced by the way he moved. I think he was one of only two boys in my class who could successfully execute a backflip. He was everything I wasn’t, sports-wise.
I didn’t really think he was stunning until Senior, when we were both 16. However, I think by that stage my brain was clouded with so much dopamine that had he looked like Miss Piggy herself I still would have fancied him. Yeah, rationality had gone out the window by that point. But in reality he was packing on muscle. As far as my little brain was concerned, he just kept better and better-looking. He really could do no wrong in my eyes. 😜
My favourite memory of him is probably when I caught sight of him at the school formal for the first time. I looked at him and said in a small voice that he looked nice and he gazed back at me and said I looked nice too. I think he meant it. I think we were genuine friends (as least as far as he was concerned) and I ruined it all (from my perspective) by becoming lovesick over him. He couldn’t give me the one thing I wanted: reciprocation. 🙂
Sammy,
You’re INTJ, right? Or INFJ? How do you think you’d go with an ENTP (or ENFP)? I have read they are a good fit. Just wondered what you think the effect would have been if you swapped out your LO’s sensing for intuition.
I struggle with the MBTI categorisations. I can be an F or P depending what I feel like that day. I want to answer every question with “it depends”! I know people who test as a strong Intuitive but show all the hallmarks of a Sensor. This all can get confusing!
@Lim-a-rant.
I’m an INFJ, although for a long time I thought I was an INTJ.
ESTPs aren’t a good match for me because the result is, well … pure addiction. Even when I was in grade three, there was this little boy in my class who was the class clown, and I just liked him right off the bat. It was his energy, his bravado, his fearlessness, etc, etc. He used to answer back the teacher and the teacher still liked him! 😆
I don’t know about ENTPs. My father is ISTP. So my LO was just my father – if my father happened to be an extrovert! My father is hilarious if you can get him to open up. But it’s almost impossible to get him to open up. ESTPs will be funny without prompting. They’re just natural flirts. The problem is they flirt with … everyone. 🙄
ENFJs get on my nerves. (Mum is an ENFJ). I find it hard to be around personality types who want to divulge all their emotions constantly, but whose eyes glaze over in response to the teeniest injection of logic. It’s hard to talk to people who don’t enjoy thinking and who only wish to emote. If you look closely, Mum and Dad were one of those love matches based on the law of “opposites attract”. They had crazy chemistry in the early days of their romance, but as husband and wife proved 100% incompatible. 🤔
There was a girl at high school who acted limerent around me.
(Because she mistakenly believed I was into her when I wasn’t – there was some miscommunication there from my POV). She was an ENFP/J. There was a real spark. But it only lasted for … 29 seconds.
It’s like once we got to know each other, I realised I didn’t like her. Her personality wasn’t at all intriguing to me. I didn’t want to get to know her better. She was very friendly, but she didn’t really come across as authentic. I also sensed that she didn’t really like me as a person. She was “in love with love”. For all she cared, I could have been a cardboard cutout of a man. She treated me like a NPC (non-player character) in her life while wanting to date me. It never occurred to her that I was a human being with my own feelings. 🙄
I don’t like other INFJs because INFJs are people who “know too much for their own good” i.e. they’re too intuitive and I don’t like people who have the ability to read my mind while I’m busy reading theirs. I like to be the only person in the room with psychic powers, thank you very much. (I have an INFJ older sister. Our conversations are awkward, to say the least. We sit there in silence, avoiding eye contact, knowing what the other is thinking without being told). 😜
I guess I’m drawn to ESTPs because ESTPs all seem to have a personality of their own that they haven’t borrowed from someone else. They’re different enough to be interesting. They’re similar enough to feel like kindred spirits. They’re fun. They’re charming. One doesn’t have to worry about hurting their feelings, because they’re fairly thick-skinned compared to most other personality types. I’m attracted to their authenticity, their strong sense of self.
On ‘Suspended Authority’, it was weird in my LE. I had a set of long-established, well maintained boundaries to keep my relationship with LO ‘safe’. Almost overnight the primitive ‘chimp’ bit of my brain (Id?) started beating my executive to the decisions and a lot of these boundaries just crumbled – all apart from not crossing physical boundaries or very deep emotional ones (my executive still won on those). I am talking about boundaries collapsing to seeking LO, spending time, deepening the connection.
The addiction model for limerence is discussed a lot here, and I’d liken it to that. Anyone who smokes does so knowing full well it won’t do their lungs any good. By the time they consciously think about that, they might have smoked the full pack. By the time my executive reflected on decisions, the chimp had already made them.
It took about five months to get a semblance of control back and bring the executive back into decisions, and more like double that to get it to a level I was remotely happy with – where I could establish what and how to put back in place boundaries-wise. I am still not fully there – my executive makes some decisions, my chimp still at other times overrides it.
I’d be interested if any of the rest of you know what those ‘repair’ time periods were for you, if you experienced similar – and how long it took to get completely back to pre-LE equilibrium.
LaR,
Our LEs differ dramatically but as the good Doctor defines Suspended Authority, “When in the presence of a limerent object, some internal force seems to be able to sedate the executive brain.”
Perhaps this does not apply to my instance. My ability to speak directly to LO would not work. It was as if my brain would not correlate a sentence or phrase to send to my mouth, to actually speak it. I could not talk to her without feeling as if I would stutter my words. Or just overall believing that the moment to speak was not right. Rehearsing the moment didn’t help either. Any words ever said to her were few and far between and only when I wasn’t expecting to see her. I know I was like a Deer in headlights..
Then the one time she saw me confidently approaching to actually try and have a conversation with her, she did an about-face and turned right around and walked away from me. She knew I was going to say something to her. I knew I was going to say something to her, but she wasn’t going to hear any of it.
I feel like it being 2 years later now, my confidence has improved. Definitely not feeling as insane-crazy over her as I once did. If I were to see her again, I feel like I would be able to try and make small talk. Guess it would all depend on her reaction upon seeing me. Which could probably go either way.
Overall, I had her rejection the whole time, without a word ever being spoken, but a limerent mind never wants to believe it.
MJ,
I know our LE’s are a million miles apart, but I do really relate to experiences of being left so tongue-tied by a woman I like that I can’t get my words out at all. What you say about how you are or were with your LO doesn’t sound crazy at all. I have been known to ‘fluster’ around LO, and can be caught off guard with it when I think I won’t. It isn’t commented on and it passes – but like you say it is a very different background and situation. What they have in common is that there is a right old flood of the brain chemicals in these situations that has us acting almost outside of ourselves.
@Lim-a-rant.
“…acting almost outside of ourselves.”
Well put! Like many people here, you have a flair for language. I think your phrase may have been the one the good doctor was reaching for when he wrote: “It did feel as though I was a different person, running on different emotions, despite retaining my core identity.”
Oh, what I mean is that I’m INFJ-A, but I don’t think any studies go deep enough to distinguish us from INFJ-T’s, in terms of limerence susceptibility.
INFJ’s are more prone to limerence, or at least, to filling out forms about it:
https://neurosparkle.com/infatuation-mbti/
(also I think there is another survey here on LWL with similar results)
Yes, that’s right, some physical attraction has to be there, or no glimmer will happen.
I distinctly recall the glimmer with my LO, it’s burned into my mind.
We were across a crowded room, too far away to really make eye contact, though I swear her glance settled on me longer than is customary for strangers.
The first thing that caught my attention was her body language, an open legged sitting pose that was at once casually insouciant and sexually aggressive.
(Later, I discovered that she has a background in performing arts, so her ability to command attention in a crowd is something honed over years, and not necessarily directed at me.)
The ‘click’ happened a couple weeks later, when I’d forgotten she existed.
She called to me from a distance, addressing me by name, as if we were old friends.
(she was a trainee in the same department but our roles didn’t intersect, so there was no need to interact)
It was more the energy and intonation in her voice, than anything we said.
This was before I knew anything about limerence.
But I did have past experience with BPD, so I grey-rocked her for the duration of her stay (LO ticks every box for HPD.. and also every box for what I find desirable in a woman..)
(replying to Liam-a-rant
https://livingwithlimerence.com/coffeehouse-open-thread/#comment-62908
Still getting used to the format here)
I had most bizarre dream last night/this morning —
Many posters here, a few of my childhood friends (cf) and college classmates (cc), were woking in a small, 3-floor, beige-colored, clay building, located in a small, nameless town in Britain (first) and then at some point it switched to my childhood residential compound in COO. It was a lab or medical clinic of some kind. Either DrL owned it or was the leader of the whole firm.
An incident happened: there were some ad images posted, like ones in DrL’s blog articles; but on a second or third click on an ad image, one of poster’s realistic picture would be revealed underneath, without telling who it was. Very soon all posters’ ID pictures could be clicked open through all ad images. So we had to guess, based on talks we hear on LwL, who was who and what job s/he was doing in the building or elsewhere outside the firm.
There was a big stir in the building, most employees in a white nurse uniform were eagerly guessing. I wondered who would recognize my picture (there were other posters from the East, not just me), DrL in the white uniform (in his realistic face) walked from room to room casually, grinning a bit, seemingly unaware what had happened.
A couple of regular posters were upset, either unwilling to come in to work or complained, since their identity ware revealed now. But they had little choice besides coming into the lab, doing tests or interacting with other LwL co-workers… there were loud guessing, gossiping, laughing… some bits of details I’m not telling now after I was recognized by some … Then a bit more confusing details in somewhat serious chats with the said cf and cc about this HUGE incident, standing outside of my childhood residential compound… a very busy dream indeed!
Waking up, I could not help 😆 and wonder…. 🫣
Assume the Role of Cassandra, Wearing a Mask, Speaking into the Camera
Carolina Ebeid
No, nothing, no thing, no where—
the o of no blinks open
I think that you think that I think
too much about grief
It’s not only mine—we’re in the same current
You won’t hear it blazing always in the unprocessed
wind under the voice recording
I wear my nerve halo, a handful of seeds, a breakdown
in the blood-brain barrier
It’s come to this: the interstate with star-shaped
plants and mile markers that multiply one’s belonging
Can you hear the low pulse tree-growth consuming the fence?
Books are states of consciousness, a record—
What won’t finally kill you, you eat its tongue
Holy I’ll make the alphabet for interrupters, malcontents
Holy is the person who digs the person out the rubble into the grave
About you: weather will taste metallic in the overnight
visuals, something lightdark, slick-liver-wet
Put a whisper into a jar, a war
trots out of your chiaroscuro head
******
Silent words and haloed laughters
loudly speak and echo in serial muddled images
charioting glimpses of the Unconscious
out of a misty and chiaroscuro head
❄️ 🐦🔥
To the Moon [fragment]
Percy Bysshe Shelley
1792 –1822
Art thou pale for weariness
Of climbing Heaven, and gazing on the earth,
Wandering companionless
Among the stars that have a different birth,–
And ever changing, like a joyless eye
That finds no object worth its constancy?
*****
Today is the Moon Festival in COO… the equivalent Thanksgiving….
Under the Harvest Moon
Carl Sandburg
1878 –1967
Under the harvest moon,
When the soft silver
Drips shimmering
Over the garden nights,
Death, the gray mocker,
Comes and whispers to you
As a beautiful friend
Who remembers.
Under the summer roses
When the flagrant crimson
Lurks in the dusk
Of the wild red leaves,
Love, with little hands,
Comes and touches you
With a thousand memories,
And asks you
Beautiful, unanswerable questions.
They Lived Enamoured of the Lovely Moon
Trumbull Stickney
1874 –1904
They lived enamoured of the lovely moon,
The dawn and twilight on their gentle lake.
Then Passion marvellously born did shake
Their breast and drave them into the mid-noon.
Their lives did shrink to one desire, and soon
They rose fire-eyed to follow in the wake
Of one eternal thought,—when sudden brake
Their hearts. They died, in miserable swoon.
Of all their agony not a sound was heard.
The glory of the Earth is more than they.
She asks her lovely image of the day:
A flower grows, a million boughs are green,
And over moving ocean-waves the bird
Chases his shadow and is no more seen.
Songs (III)
E. E. Cummings
1894 –1962
Always before your voice my soul
half-beautiful and wholly droll
is as some smooth and awkward foal,
whereof young moons begin
the newness of his skin,
so of my stupid sincere youth
the exquisite failure uncouth
discovers a trembling and smooth
Unstrength, against the strong
silences of your song;
or as a single lamb whose sheen
of full unsheared fleece is mean
beside its lovelier friends, between
your thoughts more white than wool
My thought is sorrowful:
but my heart smote in trembling thirds
of anguish quivers to your words,
As to a flight of thirty birds
shakes with a thickening fright
the sudden fooled light.
it is the autumn of a year:
When through the thin air stooped with fear,
across the harvest whitely peer
empty of surprise
death’s faultless eyes
(whose hand my folded soul shall know
while on faint hills do frailly go
The peaceful terrors of the snow,
and before your dead face
which sleeps,a dream shall pass)
and these my days their sounds and flowers
Fall in a pride of petaled hours,
like flowers at the feet of mowers
whose bodies strong with love
through meadows hugely move.
yet what am i that such and such
mysteries very simply touch
me, whose heart-wholeness overmuch
Expects of your hair pale,
a terror musical?
while in an earthless hour my fond
soul seriously yearns beyond
this fern of sunset frond on frond
opening in a rare
Slowness of gloried air…
The flute of morning stilled in noon—
noon the implacable bassoon—
now Twilight seeks the thrill of moon,
washed with a wild and thin
despair of violin
“some bits of details I’m not telling now after I was recognized by some … “
Well, under the high tide of the Harvest Moon, I’m just telling a bit of more here —
A poster/ghost here was a mail person delivering mails to the DrL’s “lab” company. There was a sandy hill (with a few scattered, skinny shrubs) with a sandy path right outside the low beige clay building; nothing else was on the left side of the building. It seemed the company was located at the edge of a small town/village.
A poster, the mail-ghost in the dream, in black silk from head to toe, paused alone on the long, winding, sandy path with a mail-bike; the mail-ghost did not want to encounter some face-revealed ghosts…. I chitchatted with another face-revealed ghost inside the building, “I’m not going to eat anyone up…”. I was about stepping out to coax the mail-ghost to continue the duty — delivering the company’s daily mails…
Then I woke up…. 😆
Stigmas on the body of air
Ekaterina Derysheva
translated from the Russian by Ryan Hardy, Asher Maria, and Kevin M. F. Platt
stigmas on the body of air
the wind finds its voices
after retouching the speaker
look at them moving
in the twilight of indifference
**********
Rabbit Lady on the Moon
Rabbit Lady on the Moon
Finds her hundreds of illuminating hues
After tossing the dreamer
Look at them winding, echoing
In the silver chamber of laughter
❄️ 🐦🔥
23:55pm, 9/17/24
Rabbit Lady on the Moon
Rabbit Lady on the Moon
Finds her illuminating hues
After tossing the dreamer
Look at them winding, echoing
In the silver chamber of laughter
❄️ 🐦🔥
23:59pm, 9/17/24
Seems to be a telling dream again…. I seem unable to pass one night without a “featured short” with colorful details…
Father and I were taking an aimless walk (almost never done in reality) and rested on a large cross section of a big street. A good looking, bare-chest, messy-hair young man was shouting something in the middle of the street with a dozen people half circled him watching. Father and I sat down a bench and half-heartedly listened…. I dozed off.
Waking up in the late afternoon, I was shocked: there were over hundreds of people in about 10 layers on steps (like in a stadium) around Father and me, listening to the young man’s continuous preaching now about protecting children and their welfare…. He wanted all of us to do something to achieve this goal.
Then the crowd began to leave . Father and I again took leisure strolls under a heavily dark-green tree-shaded sidewalk, along with the scattered audience. We were both in a very relaxed and pleasant mood, chitchatting random stuff (can’t remember a thing). There were some old, short European styled buildings and a green-roofed church along the way.
Then somehow, Father and me arrived at my old work in front of a 19th century stone building “sitting” on top of the two tall, half-domed/arched gates (with the external stairways leading to another section of the campus). Right on the stair-steps, the xLO was standing dashingly under an early morning sunlight.
Father and I paused a few steps aways the stair-steps. Then Father smiled and looked very calm, without saying a word, he vanished in the cloudless sky and fresh air, as if he had just completed his escorting task and departed without any sentiments. I did not feel sad, anxious, or any sense of being abandoned while still standing alone.
I walked up to xLO and naturally greeted him. “Did you see I was chatting with my father on my left side?” He charmingly smiled without saying anything. I didn’t feel embarrassed but continued, “I know it’s odd to tell others I was walking and chatting so naturally with a dead person, but Father was really there with me.” I knew I could never convince xLO that Dad and I just had a great outing and watched a children-farewell promotion with hundreds of other people in the street.
xLO told me that he wanted to move his furniture out of the office and bring them to his new job location. Without me responding anything, his SO and the younger daughter suddenly appeared from nowhere, both gleeful. They were planning how to load the furniture to a small truck. I felt very uncomfortable and unfitting standing there in the middle of the family’s affair.
Knowing that I’d lost Father recently and might be “out of sorts” sometimes, xLO’s SO was polite, briefly and somewhat indifferently greeted me (I never met her in reality), then kept moving around, loudly talking about her ideas of how to load stuff. The teenage daughter giggly joined the discussion while moving up and own the steps. Later, I saw (or envisioned) a big piece of long sofa on an old rundown pickup standing on a red-brick pavement.
I silently watched and felt very invisible. By then it was a late morning, the SO was sitting down on the other side of the steps beginning to eat a box of American pancakes…
I felt so awkward that I just wanted to vanish from the site, like Father… Bingo! — I woke up, thanks to Athena❗️
*****
The Gong
Beatrice Ravenel
Love hums in your veins with the deep and heartening sound
Of a temple gong—
The gong of Dai Nippon
That fused into perfect, fastidious harmony
When a girl had flung into the quag of its white-hot metal
Her rhythm of passionate life.
In the dead hours of the day
When men doubt themselves,
When the acrid sunlight appraises them and finds them without due significance,
You touch for your reassurance
The gong!
And its soft-toned thunder, musical, purple, true as earth’s center—
Dignity, power, conviction—
Imposes its harmony:
One may believe in oneself without insulting intelligence,
Life may be full of distinction, or ordered beauty—and magic—
And you are the master!
The rhythm of blood and spirit run true.
When has she failed you?
When withheld immolation
In the fiery quicksand?
“Dignity, power, conviction —
Imposes its harmony:
One may believe in oneself without insulting intelligence,
Life may be full of distinction, or ordered beauty—and magic—“
Each Self is the potential master!
I fell and knocked my AC ligament out of place yesterday. Momma dragged me to the ER with me kicking and screaming. Its poking out my right shoulder. I gotta see an orohpodeic doctor tomorrow to find out bad it is. It hurts like hell. But Momma has been taking care of me as much as I protest. I dont like being a burden. Im in a sling and a sash and i dont like it. Momma damn near had to feed me last night when we got home from the ER at like 1am.
That’s terrible Friend. I’m sorry.
Wishing you a speedy recovery. Hope you don’t have to miss too much work.
It’s ok to let someone look after you when injured, Adam.
I doubt very much your wife sees you as a burden.
Heck, even Superman needed some tending every once in a while.
Prayers for a speedy recovery!
I just had to ask my wife to shower me, wash my hair and shave me. It’s embarrassing. I love her that she did it. I hate that I had to ask her to do it.
Wow Adam, I hope that it’s not too bad and you get better soon! All my good wishes also for Momma.
„ But Momma has been taking care of me as much as I protest.“
I understand very much that you don’t want to be a burden to her, but as a mother I have to tell you that it’s much easier for her if you don’t protest against necessary help and measures🙈🙏🏻!
That aside, I wish you both that you will recover quickly and without any complications!
Ah, that sucks, Adam 😕
Hopefully the damage is not as bad as it feels.
You’ll probably get a physio referral and recovery plan.
That which does not kill us.. Will almost kill us!
Dear Adam,
I really hope that when you go to see your doctor today that your poor shoulder is not so badly damaged – although it sounds terrible from what you described. When the body lets us down it might be a chance to appreciate our nearest and dearest by letting somebody else be your “white knight” for a while. I always appreciate my SO when I am sick or sore because he loves to help. It sounds like Momma is another person like that – she’s great in a crisis.
You have been having a tough run of things, both limerent and not-limerent in the past few weeks, god bless, and I hope it turns out to be less bad than it sounds.
Bx
Thank you all for your comments. I try not to be a terrible patient. I like to make jokes to ease my tension. When Momma tightens up my sling and sash … “well Momma now that you got me all tied up you can do whatever you want to me” which probably be smother me in my sleep lol. I liked to joke with nurses at the ER the other night too.
Whats most annoying is my right arm is my primary one and the brain still instinctually tells me to use it. So I gotta think before I do anything.
I should be able to call the doc’s office in a couple hours to see if I can get an appointment soon. As the ligament popping in and out of place is causing extensive bruising on my shoulder. And me I’m like 10 year old … cool theres a muscle sticking out of my shoulder! 🙂 Do we men ever truly grow up?
@Adam,
😆
Thanks for joking with the nurses; we love fun patients! Hope you feel better really soon.
Adam,
I hope it turns out to be nothing too serious. Doing things with your off arm can be a challenge. Brushing your teeth, for example.
I have to ask. Had you been drinking before you fell?
PS: Did they give you anything for the pain? If they did, be very careful. Drugs and alcohol don’t mix. My mother died of an accidental overdose.
PPS: If they did and you talk in your sleep now, drugs can make that worse.
Maybe God’s trying to tell you something.
LN
Ya’ll lots of times have a thankless job. I asked the doc how they my oxygen level from that thing they tape to my finger. She said its magic. And I said “well all women can do magic” as reference to America song. I asked a nurse later and she actually explained it to me. And I said “so the doc was right it is magic” to which she got a good laugh.
LE
I intentionally downplayed my pain level so they would not prescribe me anything. Ive been taking ibuprofen for pain. When I had my appendix taken out many years back I was taking my pain pills long after the pain was gone. Never again.
Yea alcohol was part of the equation. If God is trying to tell me something he’s doing it well through my wife. As she’s half terribly concerned about me and half pissed off. I don’t think I need to try for a strike three. No more drunk meandering.
Adam,
I remember twice in my life where God broke me down physically to the point where I was in a place to finally listen to Him.
Not pleasant, but effective.
@Adam,
You and your wife may already know this, but just in case you don’t, ibuprofen (NSAIDS) and chronic alcohol intake combined are both reeeaally bad on livers. I only say this to make sure things don’t get worse for you! I see it all the time — it can cause a lot of bleeding and damage. You may want to consider looking to other forms of pain relief that don’t affect the liver as much.
Wishing you both well!
He should have learned his lesson when he resisted going to ER until it was 4 days after his appendix ruptured and he had open appy. It went gangrene and I had to deal with his pen rose & JP drains …. And yet….. SMH!
LN, I am not formally medically trained, I’ve had too damn many family patients. Mom, dad, mom, Granma, Mom, micro-preemie, Mom, Granma, preemie, Mom, Adam.
And Ive had 8 surgeries myself including an ankle fusion — of those 8, only 1 was laparoscopic.
I know about the NSAIDs. He has a Grade 4 (at the very least) AC joint separation. Good news is the Ortho was in London and Beijing as the US Olympic Wrestling Team Dr.
Dear Adam’sLoopyWife,
I knew that you were a great woman but did not realise that you were so funny 😀
A grade 4 AC joint separation sounds awful. I really wish you guys well.
Thank goodness Adam’s got you in his life.
All the very best,
Bxxxxx
Adam is lucky to have such an understanding & supportive SO in you!
I don’t dare mention my LE to anyone, not even my non politically correct friends, who would probably laugh that I’m just having a mid-life crisis.
I haven’t exactly concealed it either though, my reading spaces are littered with titles on limerence.
She can’t have failed to notice..
Best I can do is try to transfer my feelings to my own SO, if anything, I am endeavouring to live life more fully (but maybe I’ll pass drunken dancing. Don’t wanna wind up in ED like Adam..)
Ha, suspended authority is definitely something.
I think very rationally and take a long time to weigh decisions. So I do that and decide there is something I have to say no to for a host of excellent reasons. I go to my LO, she ask me about it, and I say yes.
It’s especially annoying that she doesn’t have to insist at all and no amount of convincing myself before seem to help.
Also, I’m weird with her, she’s weird with me,we’re atrocious at communication, but I’m not sure that’s the same concept or just crush related weirdness.
I went and read “Limerence for a coworker” for the first time just now. I wish I had seen this article (seen LWL!) in or before May of 2019, before I took that sledgehammer to that antimatter bomb that I am sure was even felt in a parallel universe. I was the caricature of monumentally epic stupidity.
A solution may be to go to work for an entirely different outfit, and then reach out and see what happens — can’t get fired from a job you don’t have!
@James A.
“I was the caricature of monumentally epic stupidity.”
Sounds like one heck of a good holiday read. Has bidding already commenced or may I put in a small offer for the exclusive worldwide publishing rights? 🤣
“A solution may be to go to work for an entirely different outfit, and then reach out and see what happens — can’t get fired from a job you don’t have!”
I must have dyslexia. I read this as: “A solution may be to go to work IN an entirely different outfit, and then reach out and see what happens …”
Because we all know there’s no problem in life that can’t be solved with a … quick wardrobe change. 😁
Wishing you well, buddy. Sorry you’re struggling. 🙂
Hey everyone. Thought this would be a good time to update on my situation. I was handling my LE quite well in the recent past – not out of the woods, but managing it better, I guess. Was beginning to be more balanced mentally. However, I recently had another life setback – not ready to share now, maybe sometime in the future. Post this setback, the feelings towards LO have suddenly intensified, which sort of makes sense. Just telling myself to not go “deep” this time, as I have not really gotten over the earlier LE episode with the same LO. I am trying to keep myself busy, and also hoping time will do its thing. Wish me luck!
Listen to some good music.
Thanks James, will go for this.
Hi ABCD,
sorry to hear that. Keep in mind that you did good work before and that it’s not undone. I guess you will be able to bounce back faster and keep the curve flatter than last flare of LE. You’ve experienced it all before, so you know what’s going on, keep that in mind! Good luck!
Thanks Mila. Yes, you are right. This is all chartered territory, so hopefully, I can use this knowledge to keep things balanced, and in control.
How are you doing? Looks like you are coming out of your LE?
Hi ABCD,
Yes, I think I’m pretty much out of the woods. I‘m still waiting until I‘ll have visited him this weekend (stopping by on a work trip)before believing it myself. But I don’t feel limerent anymore. We still text but I toned it down in frequency and warmth (didn’t plan that, I would prefer warm but not very frequent contact), and it’s ok for me. I feel neutral at the prospect of seeing him. I might have a setback but I already feel how the distance cures a lot, so I’ll get out of it quickly I guess, once the distance is established again.
I think the way he blocked deeper conversations of any kind and insisted on a very frequent but superficial contact hurt me but also showed me the way out of the mess.
I wish you good luck! Try to focus on other important things in your life, it would be a pity to miss them over this setback and futile limerence.
@ABCD,
It is much easier to get pulled (back) towards what comforts us (perhaps LO in your case from what you say) when faced with a stressful life situation. Something like that kick-started my LE and I leaned into it for a while. Consider whether the comfort is real or whether contact with LO gives only temporary comfort followed by stronger discomfort. Stay strong, keep busy like you say, and let it run its course, as it will.
Thanks Lim-a-rant, really appreciate your advice. The highs and lows were quite intense last time. And, as you say, no matter how bad things seem, they do improve with time, this is for sure.
Hey ABCD,
I have been there – this is like a tune (an earworm) that I know too well. Whatever vulnerability started limerence for you, nowadays the LO probably just represents a familiar mental pathway that takes you to a place of Comfort (as LaR says) or Distraction from the pain that has flared up in your life.
My main advice is to greatly reduce daydreaming about LO. Its super-comforting when your brain is worried and distressed about something else but risks slipping backwards into the quicksand. When your mind goes in the direction of LO thoughts and those familiar pathways, perhaps it might be helpful to remind yourself that ‘nothing has changed in this LE, I am just seeking it more’. The externalities of the LE situation are unchanged. Rather, it is just an expression of your internal turmoil, which has flared up because of the adverse personal circumstances. This is about you.
My Dad’s suicide worsened my LE. I hope that your circumstances are manageable and improve. If its any consolation, they almost always do improve, one way or another, even if it takes time.
Sending hugs
Bx
Thanks Bewitched. I am really sorry to hear about your father. I always wondered what caused my LE – loss in the family, mid life crisis, or maybe both of these.
My circumstances are manageable, I feel. It will take some time, but I am confident I can get out of it. I hope as I start feeling better, the LE situation would improve as well. Logically, this makes sense, right?
You are correct that one or the other, things do get better with time, hopefully with less time, if possible.
All the best to you.
I just reread your post and realized that I read it wrong. I thought you had a setback with LO, but it seems you had another incident that triggered the LE.
That’s very understandable! It’s like me and sweets when I get stressed, it’s a knee-jerk reaction. The others have advised on it already, so I just want to apologize that I didn’t read it carefully.
Hi Mila. No problem at all.
I am really glad that you feel much better in your LE. I was sure that the distance would help you out, as seeing LO frequently is a trigger.
Yes, I have got some pretty solid advice from LwL friends.
Will keep you all updated.
ABCD,
Sometimes progress is slow, but it is progress. Have had some ups and downs myself, but overall feeling better and not as bad as before.
Keep up the good work. Thanks for the update.
Thanks MJ. Yes, progress can be slow, and one needs to be tenacious. Thanks for the support, and glad to know that you are feeling better, keep going.
@MJ.
“Sometimes progress is slow, but it is progress. Have had some ups and downs myself, but overall feeling better and not as bad as before.”
Glad to hear you are feeling a little better. I think you have indeed made progress during your time here. Am proud of you. 🙂
Thank you Sammy. Your support is always well appreciated.. 😄
Need help again…🙁 My LO is moving far away and I’m feeling really depressed about it. I am very unlikely to ever see him again. We had a very nice conversation before he left (he has no idea, probably, how much I like him, and I was certainly never going to tell him. He is married with kids. It was always just a hopeless crush and fantasy on my part).
But I had been hoping to be friends with him, it seemed like we were moving towards that. But now he’s moving to the other side of the country, my hopes for even a friendship are crushed, I miss him constantly and have a hard time not thinking about him.
Hang in there, Kelly. The thought of LO moving away may be painful and first, but, over a period of time, the distance will reduce the intensity of your feelings towards LO. Wish you all the best.
Thank you. I know it will help in the long run. I just really miss him. I don’t have very many friends here, and he is the nicest person I have met. I think he enjoyed talking to me. He had no idea (hopefully not!) that I had a huge crush on him.
Hello Kelly. Yes, whether to confide in LO or not has been debated a lot in the past on this forum, and opinions were divided. In my case, both LO and I have SOs, so I decided against disclosure, both to LO and SO. having said that, I am sure both of us leaked our emotions to other people.
I am sorry to hear that you are feeling depressed. I have been there, still am, to a lower extent hopefully. What helped me was being physically active, and leaning on to family and friends. There were/are some bad days, but I just tried/try to ride them out.
Your situation is tricky, as your LO has an SO. This makes disclosure very complicated. It is good that you wish your LO happiness. When I have done the same thing, it has had a soothing effect on my mind.
What have you thought about future contact with LO? Are you gonna be in touch on social media? This has been a difficult question for me, as it may not be possible to go full NC.
All the best!
@Kelly,
Friends are nice but having a hopeless crush on someone where you know there will never be actual reciprocation is very hard too. At least for me it is.
Wishing you better days, free from the sadness..
@Kelly,
This is a very familiar feeling to me. I know the heartache of the downward part of limerence so well. Even when I knew about limerence, I still had to wait out those feelings and emotions until they just ran their cycle out. I am sorry you are going through this. I do hope that you know you are not alone in your struggle, and I encourage you that you should feel better months from now once the cycle ends. We are here for you 💙
Thank you! You are very kind & supportive! I know that what I probably need is some therapy for depression. When I am depressed, even small things tend to make me feel more intensely depressed. Unfortunately, I can’t afford therapy yet, so I have to just deal with it for now.
@Kelly,
I struggle with depression too (unrelated to limerence; it’s a low-grade chronic type.) I found that medication really helped me. I have been taking a low dose for nine years, and it helps me immensely. I think I just have chronically low serotonin, so the med I use helps boost it to normal! It doesn’t cure limerence, but it helps me to think more clearly and logically.
As a nurse and an online friend, I definitely recommend you see an MD first and talk to him if you feel you have depression. A doctor may be able to help in other ways too. I know therapy is a great option, but yes, it can be expensive without insurance.
Wishing you health and happiness! 💙
It’s an understandable bereavement response, because you’re losing someone so important to you, Kelly.
You mentioned that you don’t have many friends, I’m in the same boat, don’t make friends easily, which makes us more susceptible to limerence.
But at least you’ll be able to move forwards, when you are ready
(provided that you haven’t shared contact details, and keep away from his social media)
Unlike my own situation – although I won’t break NC, my LO is still around, and she could break NC at whim, which she almost did, couple months in.
(she showed up at my work on a day I’d normally be there – I was away that day, and I’m not so bigheaded to think it was to reconnect with me, but there aren’t many reasons for LO to return, so I’m assuming it was out of boredom.)
I find myself fantasing about this, and so my attempts at living purposefully are still linked to getting at least a friendship from my LO..
I know on an intellectual level that what I want is wrong and stupid (‘Suspended Authority’), so I don’t want to discuss this with a therapist.
What I’ve found helpful is a.i. “psychologists”.
Mostly they just feed your own thoughts back to you. Some are kind, some can be harsh.
A good starting point would be c ai.
There’s a multitude of personas there, experiment with what works for you.
Another app I found helpful is Pi.
Both are free.
** This is my first post after nearly a year of discovering Limerence and LWL – Thank you Dr. L and everybody for your helpful guiding words & Hello All **
Hi Kelly, I am sorry that you are feeling sad and fully understand why.
I wish my LO would move away as I have just come to the realisation that I am going to have to avoid my favourite Town (2-3 miles from me) as the anticipation I feel when I visit, followed by the subsequent not bumping into her plunges me into deep sadness (I have read the dopamine hits are often from the anticipation).
I have seen her once in the last 4 months since I tried to go NC (my fault for seeing her as I put myself somewhere I thought she might be 2 months ago and we had one of our best chats (discovered she is in an unhappy marriage), it did me no end of damage to see her/hear this.
Cease the opportunity of your LO leaving to aid the healing process.
Take care.
LS
You are right. Him moving away is really an opportunity to get over him, isn’t it? I am just crushed that I can’t at least have a nice friendship with him, which was what I was hoping for/resigned to. He always made me feel better every week (I saw him once a week). He is an amazing person! I haven’t met anyone like that for a long time.
I’m sorry to hear about your situation. I understand exactly how that is — that little flicker of hope when they talk about their marriage in somewhat unhappy terms (my LO did that, which certainly didn’t help!) Whenever he said something sort of negative about his wife, I felt upset at how unfair it is that he maybe has a wife who doesn’t totally appreciate him, whereas I would give anything to be with him.
But, ultimately, I wish him happiness. If it cannot be with me, then I hope his marriage will be happier. That is all I can do. I might see him again if he comes back to this city for a visit, but it’s only a small chance. Basically I just need to accept that he’s gone, and try to meet someone like him who is actually available and might be interested in me.
Correction:
Seize (note Cease).
Marcia,
I’m going to start a new thread since the old one is getting hard to follow.
“I’m going to quote Glenn Close in the movie “Fatal Attraction.”
“You play fair with me. I’ll play fair with you.””
Deal.
“Fatal Attraction” is such a great movie. I saw it with the Love-Bomber SIL of a coworker in November of 1988 who was in town for a week. It made me wonder about the woman I was sitting next to in the theater. I wondered the same thing the first time my future wife and I saw a movie.
I’ve tangled with Cluster Bs before but never any “bunny boilers.”
LE,
““Fatal Attraction” is such a great movie. ”
It is. Actually, when Glenn Close says that to Michael Douglas, she’s threatening him. She’s just told him she’s pregnant and thinks they can keep the baby a secret from his wife and raise the child together and everything will be fine!
“I’ve tangled with Cluster Bs before but never any “bunny boilers.””
From what I read, Glenn Close studied borderline personality disorder as a model for the character. When you try to leave them, they go nuts.
It’s funny, I’ve been lurking here for about a year. Recently with Adam’s and MJ’s setbacks, I was feeling real pleased with myself in comparison. ‘How could you not value yourself enough to move on after so long?’ I thought.
Well, here’s my apology to Adam and MJ. I’m sorry for judging you guys. After being in the clear in terms of LE for so long, my husband decides its a good time to visit LO’s social media (was he testing me? idk) . Of course I couldn’t rip my eyes away from his phone, and everything came flooding back.
ghostzoned coined the word ‘Tinderella’. Fits LO to a T. I know social media is not real life, but my mind just refuses to believe that he isn’t the key to heaven on earth. And it keeps replaying the videos in my head in every spare moment.
It’s ok @Maria, I’m not offended. About all I can say is the struggle is real. I wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t..
No need for an apology Maria. I don’t want to be this way either. I just get frustrated that I cannot separate the normal warm memories and feelings of meeting two wonderful people from the limerence. I shouldn’t. well don’t want to, have to forget all my memories of them because stupid old man had to have a mid life crisis and ruin what would have been otherwise a very normal interaction with two people I want to remember whether I ever see them in my lifetime again.
@MJ
(new thread as the scrolling is too messy above)
“man is it hard to keep things “light”when I so want to go “next level.””
Sounds familiar. What feels better – the forcing yourself to keep it light and knowing you can enjoy her friendship as it is now? Or disclosing* and taking a punt on the rewards versus risks? This isn’t a loaded question – only you know the answer for you. It risks limbo if you don’t pick one of these horses and back it. Though limbo may well feel better than not having her in your life at all.
* by ‘disclosing’, I don’t mean disclosing limerence, I more mean like asking her out.
LaR,
The thing with Lady Friend is that I keep telling myself I’m not limerent for her. Nor do I want to transfer anything over from what is the real LE. I feel like this isn’t the same as a LE because the uncertainty just isn’t there. And this doesn’t hurt me emotionally as much when things don’t go my way.
I pretty much know what I can expect when I come to see Lady Friend and I’ve figured her moods out somewhat by how she is in our exchanges. Usually we get along well. Only a few times have I messed up by teasing her in a way that probably surprises her but she’s never really truly offended. It’s just her way of needing space and its my cue that I need to just go away for awhile, which I do. Yesterday she thought a txt I sent her was a little weird. Yet it was only over a job she had to do, that makes her feel she’s working on a chain gang. I txtd her that she needs to stop going to jail then. But then on the next line I sent read, “Although I do kinda like Bad Girls”
She thought it was a weird txt, but calling her “Girlfriend” when I walk up to her to see how she is, she has no problem with. Infact she usually has a big, cute smile on her face upon my walkup, so I must be doing something right.
She has admitted she is the avoidant type and isn’t really looking for anybody at the moment. It really sucks because that pretty much keeps me in my place and I don’t want to irritate or become someone she doesn’t want around..
I make things almost obvious by the way I leak my so called feelings. I’ve asked her to meet me after work at the Casino for drinks or maybe get lunch together on a Friday before work. Simply as work Buds. Not like a date.. She won’t do it. She’s always busy doing something besides. Either with her Sister, her Nephew or her Mom. This is because from what she’s told me about her life outside of work, she’s got emotional wounds from her past relationship. (Dating anyone is not on her radar now) While she won’t really elaborate, I feel like it can’t be very good. Because she has terrible sleep patterns and is always tired from working out.
So yes there is an element of limbo to this but having her around as a work buddy is better than nothing
Sounds like you’ve made it pretty obvious, then. (That Bad Girls crack made me LOL)
SL,
Yeah I think I do it because I want her to know and yet keep her wondering or curious. There are times I feel like she doesn’t get it but then I think how can she not?
More than likely, I’m probably the bigger fool here but if I don’t ever shoot my shot, what’s the point?
MJ,
I can tell you have really thought it through, know the lane you’re in and how to make the best of it, even if that isn’t your dream outcome. You got this.
“So yes there is an element of limbo to this but having her around as a work buddy is better than nothing”
Could not have put it better myself. Despite all the background differences, I could have written that sentence to describe where I’m at with LO. If you saw my post to Sammy about the slot machine analogy, your sentence is where my (current) phase 4 is at. Even if is a form of limbo, it beats all alternatives.
I did read that @LaR. I like how you worded it. Those phases reminded me of the moments when my LE was at its most intense. Those dopamine rewards just from a glance from LO set my heart on fire. Like this Woman simply oozed beauty and class in almost an entirely different dimension. I never got enough of her. She needs her own 24/7 reality show, so I could watch her all the time and never change the channel.
The rewards I get from Lady Friend are there and I always want to hear from her but it’s not excitement in the same way. (Less uncertainty) Since I feel like the boundaries are somewhat in place at this point, I know what I need to do on the field I get to play on. Luckily for me, I’m enjoying this game of chase I’m playing with her.
MJ, I am hoping you’re on to something here by bringing it back to the predictability pf rewards. Uncertainty is what fuels limerence. Once the rewards become predictable you can start to wrestle back some control and agency. (These ‘rewards’ will vary by each individual LE, from none at all to massive – that’s not what I’m arguing matters, it is the predictability that matters).
Once you know that you can’t win at a game, but also a predictable route to getting as far as you can in the game each time, maybe the game eventually becomes boring. This is more a comment about my LE than yours, because I NEED it to get boring. You could choose the same path for yours eventually, but only if you want to. I get you’re not there yet.
This route out feels possible for me only because my LO is a super-consistent person who seems to have no interest in ‘gaming’ me. I’m thankful. If she was a game player it could have got very much worse for me. With someone like your original LO it can’t work like that because the rewards weren’t predictable (unless you got to a point of a predictable ‘no reward’, but I don’t know if this way snuffs it out in the same way a predictable low-level reward or ‘too painful’ reward does).
I signed up to do a job for my church’s fundraiser, only to find out last night that LO’s SO signed up for the same one. ARGH Please pray/good thoughts for me….. This will be awkward…. At first I got paranoid, but realized it’s not to spy on me but to do her part and be with her relative who’s also working. No, I don’t know her, because she’s more a Christmas/Easter attendee.
Sammy,
WRT The Limmys, DWTS, and the soon to be announced Limerent Beauty Pageant:
As with most things, it all comes down to budget. At the current level of funding, it looks like the ceremony and DWTS will be held in a free covered pavilion with a grill. A Sign-up Genius will be posted and participants can sign up to bring whatever they like. We could also use a karaoke machine and a mirror ball, if anybody has one.
Jaideaux isn’t reading the envelopes, she’s delivering them, unless she wants to be a presenter. I think I’ll ask lowendj to perform at the ceremony. He should be able to come up with some appropriate songs.
Since I work in a distillery, I’ll cover the a l alcohol.
I will appoint Marcia “Swag Queen.” She’ll be in charge of the after party.
No, I’m still waiting for my Limmy to arrive in the mail. It’s been several years.
Ideas in the works
“The Limerent” – this show is based on “The Batchelor” and “The Bachelorette
“The Real Limerents of —-” – pick a place
“Limerence American Style” – a reboot of the 70s show “Love American Style”
LE,
“I will appoint Marcia “Swag Queen.””
Ha! I’ve got A+ Swag! 🙂
Or if by “swag” you mean gift bags … we don’t have that kind of budget. 🙂
“She’ll be in charge of the after party.”
Only people who AREN’T too cool to boogie will be admitted. 🙂
“I will appoint Marcia “Swag Queen.”
“Marcia and The Swag Queens” sounds like a good name for a Band.. 🤣🤣
MJ,
“Marcia and The Swag Queens” sounds like a good name for a Band..”
It’s Marcia and the Pips. Me and the three male back-up singers, who are wearing very tight pants. 🙂
Oh, so they sing falsetto? 😉
Serial,
Who said they can sing? 🙂
LE,
We’ll also need a version of “The Golden Limerent” since some of us here are 50+.. 🤣🤣
We’re not over the hill yet! 😉
Thanks everyone for all the support and advice! This is the only place I can talk about my feelings for him. It’s so crazy that I am feeling heartbroken over a relationship I never actually had! It feels like a breakup even though it isn’t.
I have tried depression meds, had bad side effects, but that was a long time ago, so maybe I should try again. I know that part of the reason for my LE was loneliness and part was depression and feeling lost in my life. He was like a beam of sunshine through a dark cloud, while he was here.
@Kelly,
If you can help it, please try to stay avoid those depression meds, the side effects are strong for many and effects of any type wears off soon or later, unless you increase doses. I had 4 types in 5.5 years and literally felt like a zombie while in it. Given me a million $, I would not try any of them again!
Have you tried therapies? Feel free to vent out any feelings here, writing out one’s true emotions without fear is a form of a powerful therapy. Hanging there!
I’m extremely nervous about trying depression meds again for that reason. Most people who have never experienced it don’t realize how bad the side effects can be. They made me feel worse and didn’t really help my depression, so I eventually stopped taking them. I don’t know if I would try them again or not. I would like to do therapy, maybe in a little while I will be able to afford that.
@Kelly,
Then you have your answer now in terms of taking anti-depressants. Any chemicals, medicine or not, alters our mind/thinking. SSRI causes mental dependency, numbing our critical thinking and colorful feelings…. Personally, I’d rather go through another LE than taking those SSRI pills!
That’s tough not to have health insurance covering therapies. However, if you know the therapeutic methods, you could do self-therapies (perhaps check out Karen Horney), or write journals or here, even if most of us sometimes are too busy to respond or have our own issues to handle. The point is not responses, but your free, fearless expressions of your pains would help release them. Others’ genuine sympathy and empathy may help to a certain degrees, your own understanding and treatments of your pains would be KEY ‘medicine” in curing your LE. It’s the same in a professional therapist’s room, I’ve been through them.
Trusting writing itself and ghosts here — all of us have suffered or are suffering the same thing. If you have read some of my posts, you know we are on the same boat, after seven years of a slow roasting LE that actually has benefited me in self-growth in the end. So don’t feel despair, seize the opportunity to learn about, renew and grow yourself…
Good luck!
Here are some resource:
https://youtu.be/BHsJGkGP77I?si=NlgkN-MwaC_hG_PJ — Performing Therapy on Yourself: Self-Knowledge and Self-realization
https://youtu.be/V82tQhN57Co?si=Ja3K17ti4YCPJxgg — Karen Horney — Self Analysis — Full Audiobook
“It’s so crazy that I am feeling heartbroken over a relationship I never actually had! It feels like a breakup even though it isn’t.”
I’ve said that countless times in the last year and a half over LO. To me it felt like one of the worst letdowns ever. I never cried so hard or so much in my life. As a guy, that’s probably cringey as f—, but limerence is no joke and it can be devastating..
Please don’t feel like that’s cringey at all, it just means you had strong feelings for someone, there’s nothing wrong with that. The only problem is when when we have those feelings for the wrong person, someone who will never feel the same way about us.
How are you doing these days? Is it any better?
@Kelly,
Thank you for your words. It was a very depressing time for me once I figured out LO really wasn’t interested and then transferred out of the building almost 2 months later. I fell so incredibly hard for this Woman. I still feel like I really really loved her and she just broke my heart. But is that just crazy limerence fooling me into believing that? True I’m probably hurt she never liked me as much, but LO never actually did anything personally to really actually hurt me. She didn’t call me out, threaten me or complain to HR. She simply remained calm, showed up for work everyday, did her job and only tried to be evasive when I was in her area. Avoiding me when she could. Yet I still am amazed by the eye contact game that went on between us for months. It was very confusing to me and fueled so much hope. No Woman ever, has looked at me like that.
So Yes things have been getting better, mainly within the last 6 months or so. It’s been pretty much NC and I believe her schedule has changed on her end of the Complex. I’ve been working odd hours at night so thinking she’ll make an appearance in a building she doesn’t normally work in is not even in the cards.
It helps too that I’ve managed a new Friendship with another Lady in the department I am in now. We met at the beginning of the year after some intense eye contact too. I feel like there are good vibes present, but her reservations about any relationship like I desire are not going to happen as of now. Whether or not I can advance this Friendship forward is yet to be seen. I’m trying not to ruin a good thing by disclosure. Yet I think she has her suspicions. I’m not good at hiding my interest, but I like to have fun in the chase.
Definitely not trying to be limerent for her either. I can’t do that again. Nope! No freakin way..
@Kelly,
Total NC will probably break it quickest if that option is available to you. It will be hard because making contact keeps the fire burning so to speak, and that can be tempting. See my post to ABCD below about other strategies I have tried – maybe there is something there that will chime. But if you can manage NC, I would do.
The worst of the side effects of SSRIs are usually in the first 2 or 3 weeks. I think I agree with what Snowphoenix is saying to you, that if you can move on in other ways like therapy / self therapy / use LwL community, that’s better than SSRIs. To balance the argument though, I know a lot of people including myself who have a used a low dose of SSRI at times, for short spells, just enough to keep them ‘functional’ and able to put in the other work while they get through the worst part. Eg -years ago, it seemed I could achieve more in therapy once on a low dose SSRI than before that when I was just getting more and more depressed. Not trying to encourage you to take them at all, just saying it is not a disastrous failure for everyone who does.
Hi everyone, I am so grateful for this website, it has been such a relief to find that there is name for my “condition” and a possible solution. I have spent the last week watching a lot of YouTube videos as well that have helped me with self compassion and hope for a better future.
I am a 41 year old female and have had some minor limerences throughout my life. But last August I fell hard for my daughter’s elementary school teacher, she’s 8 years older than me, happily married with adult children. The “glimmer” was that she was normal, smart, and had a great sense of humor. I was in a very vulnerable place upon meeting her, having just been through a rough patch in my marriage, covid turning everything upside down, and now deciding to send my kids back to school after having homeschooled them the previous 3 years.
So this intense limerent episode began. I joked that I wanted to be her bff (to others). I would find the dumbest reasons to email her, stop by her room, put myself in her path to run into her, etc. It was a fun infatuation. I got a lot of pleasure out of it and I felt like she liked me too. She definitely liked my daughter. I would always send gifts, cookies etc in with my daughter for the teacher but then my daughter started not wanting to continue taking stuff, she said it was weird. That was my first clue. After Christmas, things really got intense because I had my first sexual fantasy about her. On one hand it came out of nowhere and on the other I had been looking for this type of stimulation. I had been feeling more sexual and I just needed someone to place the feelings onto. I’ve had only a handful of real interactions with my LO. When I’m talking to her she seems like a normal person, but when I’m thinking about her she becomes a goddess. The intensity of my feelings is impossible to describe. Everything in my life is related to her. Everything I do I wonder what she would think. I’m constantly rehearsing conversations with her or ruminating on past conversations, emails or texts. It’s incredible that I can even accomplish anything in daily life because so much of my mental and emotional energy is spent on this thing.
At the end of the school year I wrote her a heartfelt letter and said I hoped we could be friends. I thought maybe she would say it’s inappropriate because of her position at my daughter’s school but she answered “I feel like we’re already friends!” This was immensely disappointing because it didn’t really open the door to further the friendship but it didn’t shut it down either. So I was left with this unrequited crush.
I texted her a few times over the summer. She always responded (after a few hours) politely and appropriately. Small talk. But she never texted me first.
I saw her on the first day of school this year and gave her a small gift which she texted me the next day thanking me for. I see her every week at assemblies but she doesn’t see me. I have run into her once in the hall because I volunteer for another teacher. If I am even approaching her area of the school my heart races uncontrollably. Any time I thought about texting her my heart would race, sweaty palms, I would feel elated pressing send and then would check my phone every few seconds for hours until she replied. I would feel elated on the reply for about 5 minutes then crash after analyzing the death out of it.
Now that I understand the issue I have become determined not to contact her. Today is day 16. I have seen her from afar though. I am still hoping I will see her and she will ask me why I am avoiding her and I can say “because I’m in love with you!” I am completely devastated. I cry daily. I am married with four wonderful children. I feel no joy in life and feel like I never will again. This limerence is the best thing in my life and it is also a living nightmare that I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy. My husband is aware and he supports me although he has a very minute understanding of the whole situation, my childhood emotional neglect, more recent trauma as a factor, etc.
I would love to develop a support system from others who have been in the same situation. I am a very smart, functional person! The whole time this was escalating I knew exactly what was going on but I was powerless to stop it. It’s like I have two sides of my brain constantly in battle.
I am at the point where I know it is completely fruitless to seek out her attention, text her or anything, because she tolerates me and maybe is amused by my feelings for her but definitely doesn’t reciprocate. If she did she would text me once in a while or ask me to do something. So I know the facts and I am now just desperate to get past this, to feel normal. I feel like my brain has been hijacked, like I have imprinted on her and it’s this horrible one sided attachment that I can’t break free from. And really I have never felt normal. Help.
We are all here to support you, all of us here know exactly how this feels because we are going through it or have been through it.
It’s tricky that she’s at your daughter’s school, so maybe “no contact” isn’t entirely possible. But you can limit your interaction with her. And stop texting and giving gifts. I don’t think it would be a good idea to tell her you’re in love with her. At best, it will make things extremely awkward every time you run into her; at worst, it might strain your relationship with your husband. It just seems like nothing good would come out of this reveal, although opinions on this vary.
Since you are aware of some the causes (you mentioned neglect & trauma), is it possible to get therapy? It might help talking about these issues with a mental health professional.
Anyway, I am sorry to hear you’re going through this, it’s truly a terrible feeling. Mine was not as intense, and he has recently moved to another state, so I can’t see him now anyway. So “no contact” has sort of been forced on me, and I’m trying to see this as a good thing, because it might help me to stop thinking about him (eventually!) The general consensus seems to be that No Contact is best. With the intensity of these limerence feelings, even a normal friendship may not be possible. I wish you luck on this journey.
You have terrific insight, Mary, which is essential for moving on.
It sounds like you’ve fallen for one of those pesky Good LO’s.
*(in my own situation, whenever I was around LO, I was on such a high that my limerence colour-blinded me to an armada of red flags, so in my mind, she was also a good LO!)
A good LO would not want you to mope and pine after her, Mary.
She would want you to live your best life, and be the best version of Mary that you could be, without her.
Use that limerent energy to better yourself, whether that means getting up an hour earlier for a walk or workout, or going to bed earlier to get better rest, learning new skills, reconnecting with your friends and loved ones.
At first, you will be doing it for LO, more than yourself.
But eventually, as you make new habits routine, you will be doing for yourself.
No contact helps.
No contact means extreme measures.
Anything that leads towards LO is counter-productive.
Not just physical proximity, but online too.
And avoid any songs, movies, etc featuring unrequited love.
Hello Mary. I am sorry you are having to go through this. As I read your post, my mind went racing back to when I had these same feelings, especially your point about the text messaging back and forth: elated on a response, and sad on no response — the highs and lows, basically, and very bittersweet.
I may not be the best person to advise on this, as I am struggling with this daily, but trust me, you will feel better with time. This is for sure. We are all here for you. All the best.
@Snowphoenix:
Thank you for those resource links, I will check them out!
Hello LwL friends. It is very interesting and helpful to read all of your LE experiences, especially how you are all “managing” your LEs. I am trying to do the same. My mind has formed strong pathways that equate LO with rewards, and I am trying to break these pathways. Though I feel I am making progress, the intrusive thoughts are still painful. And the fact that NC is not possible makes it harder.
Any advice on how I can break the LO – reward cycle? I probably know this stuff already, but would still appreciate advice and a pep talk. Thank you!
Hi @ABCD,
I feel for you my friend – I think the circumstances and context of your LE sound a bit like mine.
I’ve not mastered the ‘deprogramming’ side. Several people here – and I think they are right – recommend that making time to sit with the intrusive thought and just accepting “this is where I am right now – it might not be comfortable but is where I am” is the best way. Take away the intrusive thought’s power over you, if you like, and it won’t keep trying to exert power.
If you’re after more practical strategies …
Distract – do something else even if just for 5 minutes. If I am about to text LO and know I shouldn’t, I come here to LwL and read or write for a bit instead. It shifts my focus from thinking about LO to thinking about me and the LE (better). Or purposely do another activity like spend time with your SO, or take a walk, do some exercise, do the garden, whatever it may be.
Spells of NC or very LC (I am talking here of even a week or two) help reduce it, even where overall NC is impossible. I feel the intrusive thoughts start to diminish slightly after about day 4/5. When contact does resume, I then feel more in control than before the NC. The lack of control can creep back up, but NC buys time.
Another that has worked is remembering how I felt in moments LO disappointed me. They are quite few and far between tbf, but for example where she bailed on a commitment, the pain of an un-replied text, or remembering what it feels like when she light-flirts with someone else or describes doing so. You will have your own ones of these.
Linked to the above, I also have one particular moment I can draw upon in an emergency. I don’t want to give too much detail on it, but LO did a couple of things (not in words) to confirm to my brain very firmly “this is not going to happen between us, we are friendzoned”. I have an SO too, so I kind of needed and wanted that moment on some level. It pained me a lot at the time. But since then, the fantasy and the reality separated much more. If they start to come back together, I try to remember that pain. Do you have something like that you can draw on as an emergency brake?
Any strategies that have worked for you before that I could get inspired by?
The bit of my LwL ramblings that I’d advise other posters not to take on is my belief that I can exit the LE but still stay friends with LO. It is against LwL wisdom and I might be kidding myself/bargaining. We’ll see in my case – I own the decision and strategy to try for that route, and the consequences – but I wouldnt encourage anyone else to try it! There are not many success stories for it in the LwL archives. But I think I am doing better with gradual deprogramming than I would be if I tried to create a sudden aversion response to LO – I am just not mentally ready for that, or even able to in the context of my LE.
Good luck!
Thanks LaR for the detailed and helpful response. Accepting the thoughts seems like a good strategy, I’ll give it a shot.
For me, I function the best when there is significant NC, like > 2 weeks. Post interaction, I tend to feel low for a couple of days, before feeling better again.
The problem was that even small periods of NC were not possible earlier, but they do seem like a possibility now, so that should help.
You are right about resisting the urge to seek LO. It does die out once you distract yourself. This has worked well for me. As an example, do not open social media for 2 days to seek LO.
So mostly, NC, when its possible, has worked the best for me.
Good luck!
ABCD,
I think this „emergency brake“ Lim- a-Rant mentioned is indeed a powerful weapon against limerence. Moments when reality presented itself naked – she doesn’t see me in that light, she‘s not interested in more than we have, to remember these short insights is very important. These moments get covered by a lot of other moments and by wishing for another reality, that’s why it’s important to get back to them, even though it hurts.
Mila,
It was thanks to really hashing it out with you on here back a few months ago – shortly after the incident that now forms the basis of my ’emergency brake’ – that I managed to understand it and get it to operate in that way.
In reality I think ABCD is ahead of me in recovering. But I’m getting more OK with ‘what it isn’t and can’t be’. There are still good days and bad days, relapses, and a long way to go, but the fog has definitely lifted a bit.
Good to hear you haven’t felt too affected or set back by your visit to your former LO.
LaR has provided some great advice. I’m in your same boat ABCD, still have very strong intrusive thoughts, can’t be NC and it’s frustrating because I know NC is the cure, practice LC to the extent I can to tamper down emotions.
For me, two things. One, I gave up trying to reduce intrusive thoughts long ago, and like LaR said, I just accept them as my reality. I still get frustrated by them at times but I don’t get down about them. Which leads to my second thing, I focus solely on my emotions now and staying even emotions and staying away from triggers. In the other blog I wrote about futility. That everything that occurs with LO is futile in regards to having the reciprocation I actually desire and if I accept the futility of it then all my little interactions I have with her, even if the interaction feels flirty and positive, holds no weight. Its futile and a waste of time. This has helped tamper distress and over rumination.
I would encourage you to continue to practice as much LC as possible, maintain that power and remember, it’s all futility. You are not going to get that romantic reward you desire.
Speedwagon,
Nice to hear that your even keel seems to be improving even more.
Have you been able to completely give up the bargaining for friendship part, or does that still come and go? I know you weren’t doing this as much as I was anyway, but wondered if it ever crops up. I find I make my intrusive thoughts worse rather than better if I try to think I can’t have LO even as a friend on some level. Maybe this is just a stage I need to pass through on the way to a future commitment to NC, or as LC as possible. You are further through so would be good to know how that went for you.
I’ve never really wanted to be friends with LO. I can’t. It doesn’t work for me. If I pursue friendship I start down the road of hope and expectation for the romantic and then I just get let down somehow by her and my LE ramps up. Nope, I prefer no friendship with LO.
What has become tricky though is LO has noticed and asked me about me being distanced from her when she sees me engage in more friendship behavior with a couple other women in the office. She knows I don’t pursue personal interaction with her like others. She actually told me she notices this and she brought it up in a way that seemed like it bothered her but she never actually said that so I’m not exactly certain her emotions on it. I actually validated her suspicion and told her I didn’t really consider her a friend or that we had to be friends but it’s very difficult to have that discussion honestly and not get into disclosure all over again. She seemed resigned to my position, she knows that she is there to work and do a job and that friendship is not a requirement. But I sense she feels maybe slighted a bit. In my defense she does very little to ever initiate friendship with me so it’s easy for me to be dismissive of her inquiry. It’s not like she is putting in effort and I’m ignoring her.
So for now I am content staying distanced and personally disengaged from her. My LE is in a lesser state at the moment and I’m intent on keeping it that way but she is still my LO and I know triggers lurk around every corner so I am diligent to avoid them. Trying to maintain friendship is one of the biggest triggers of all.
I know you are in a more difficult position because you had a pre existing friendship. Walking away from the friendship may cause a lot of hurt with LO and cause a lot of questions. That can’t be easy to navigate and I am sure stokes the LE.
You sound like you’re mostly doing OK with the tough hand you’ve been dealt. Keep plugging away. I am glad she can see the reality of the situation that you have to work together but that doesnt mean you have to be (or can be) friends.
Yes to everything you said in the last sentence – that does stoke the LE, but she does seem to be doing all she can to make it easier for me / us to stay friends without the complications ruining it. She’s a smart cookie who can generally read a room. I swear knowledge of it has ‘passed’ between us without disclosure – if you look objectively at it, how could it not have? I can’t have not leaked. Yet nothing has ever been said by either and I never feel a danger that she will.
We’re then left with two people who without words seem to understand the situation, risks and necessary boundaries, but also what we *can* have if neither of us acts to destablise that. Reaching this almost equilibrium has been hard work. We’ll see if it can hold at this level, which is quite a bit less distressing than it was.
You’re correct though – the friendship is such that if I tried to exit, it would need disclosure out of respect. Exiting without disclosure would be a sort of “disclosure in all but name”. It would also be quite mean given some previous experiences of hers with friends that she has told me about. I don’t really have any wish to hurt her but “team not disclose” here on LwL continues to keep me away from that route too.
@Speed,
What a situation you have going on in that office. Man I feel for you. That has to be tough. It’s like your damned no matter which route you decide to take.
Your resolve seems legit and yes truly you probably could just quash the whole thing if she would just quit. I can easily see why her inquiry about your friendship with other Ladies in the office, would cause you to scratch your head. That would cause me to wonder as well.
It’s too bad there aren’t other options besides her quitting. I don’t know what you do or how big your facility is.
Would you or her transferring to another area or department be of any help? I’m sure it’s crossed your mind by now but may not be an option.
I feel like you’ve backed yourself into a corner. But you do seem to have things well under control, like always. Or so it seems..
Best of luck moving forward.
@MJ
I’m the owner of a small business and employ LO. We have a small office of about 10 people. It’s either she quits or I fire her and I’m not going to fire her. She is very good at her job and since I disclosed, that feels dicey. I actually do not want to fire her because I’m limerent.
Yes, it’s a no win situation all around. I feel very much backed into a corner and I’m just trying to wait it out. If I do certain things like maintain this strategy of LC it can tamper the more distressing aspects of the LE but as I am experiencing, it comes with side effects.
Being that it’s a small office, interpersonal interactions are more out in the open for others to see. I can’t really hide being more of a friend with a couple other women in the office than with LO. If someone is in my office talking with me the others know. Or if we do an outing together, others know. LO right now is going through something emotionally concerning me, I can tell, because she is bringing all this up and also she is texting me more than usual at the moment. These are usually little inside joke around texts that she will send, I might text a comment or two back acknowledging her text and then that is it. Never in these texts does she ever get into sincere conversation with me. She has a certain interpersonal immaturity about her that way. Any sincere conversation would be started by me, and I don’t do that with her any more. I don’t really want to know about her life or share my life with her.
I should say that professionally I am very engaging and warm with her, I provide her some of the best work projects in the office, and I interact with her professionally just as much as any other person in the office. But personally I have a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy with her. I could not tell you what she does with her weekends. What I can’t understand is, if she knows I have feelings for her, and she has no feelings for me, and our work relationship is good, why does she seem to want more? And don’t tell me she just wants closeness because she doesn’t. If I try to sincerely get close she retreats. She seems to just want my superficial personal attention from time to time like an immature school girl playing games with me. But I’m over playing games. The whole thing is stupid and futile and I’m tired of it so I just wish her to quit.
“…why does she seem to want more? And don’t tell me she just wants closeness because she doesn’t.”
Speedwagon, my guess is she wants “preferred status” at the office – wouldn’t anyone??
She probably had it – and now she’s lost it.
Continuing… What I would do in your shoes…
Background: you can’t fire her, she won’t quit.
Solution: do her a huge favor and find her a great new job (keep your eyes open for opportunities) that you call in a personal recommendation for. Sell it well to her as a great opportunity for someone who wants to advance. Your company is small after all and not many opportunities for advancement.
Just my 2 cents.
Speedwagon , Trifles,
I wouldn’t change anything about her work situation because you are limerent. For me, that’s a no-go, one can change one‘s own situation but not mess with LO‘s job unless she behaves in a way that justifies it officially.
Speedwagon, I think you‘ve got a good grasp with the futility approach.
Everyone likes it when someone thinks he/she‘s attractive and has a crush, it’s flattering, she might subconsciously check out if it’s still the case and seek for the good feeling and validation it might give her.
Not your problem! I think you handle it very well so far.
Speedwagon,
I think Trifles makes a great point – your LO wants the preferential status she once may have felt (pre disclosure). That might just be at work (office status) or might also be in terms of the personal relationship.
The bit I don’t get, if the personal bit matters to her, is why she doesn’t instigate (one of the LwL ladies can probably tell us …) – maybe it is as you say and her communication ability is just a bit immature. Does she seem able instigate friendly conversations with other men at the office or is it that she doesn’t do it across the board?
Sometimes it can stem from a lack of self confidence. But I think it is better for your LE that she doesn’t instigate more!
LE told me something that really stuck with me that has bearings of sort on this conversation.
One time I asked him why LO was still “keeping me around” even after she had started dating someone? Early on (I now know in hindsight) I was way obvious with my preferential treatment of her. How could she not know if the rest of the office could tell?
He said despite there now being a preferred man in her life she still ,,,, how’d be put it …. “kept me in her orbit” because if this guy wasn’t what she was looking for she could always fall back on me for attention. LE you can correct me if I worded that wrong.
I think a lot of LOs know their status with the limerent but for whatever reason don’t want to fully engage but still enjoy basking in the attention the limerent freely gives them.
He said despite there now being a preferred man in her life she still ,,,, how’d be put it …. “kept me in her orbit” because if this guy wasn’t what she was looking for she could always fall back on me for attention. LE you can correct me if I worded that wrong.
‘Orbiter’ is dating lingo for a useful dude, a ‘friend without benefits’.
An attractive woman may aspire to have a multitude of them, kept on the hook by the uncertainty of the relationship.
These guys serve a useful function, eg taxi, text buddy, removalist, handyman, confidence booster, and in your case, Adam, barista.
But essentially they’re interchangeable and ultimately disposable.
Kind of like a tampon.
“‘Orbiter’ is dating lingo for a useful dude, a ‘friend without benefits’.
An attractive woman may aspire to have a multitude of them, kept on the hook by the uncertainty of the relationship.”
@ghostzoned,
Thank you for this post. Your insight is excellent but quite obvious to me as well. I now will refer to myself as Lady Friends “Orbiter”. Because I am not her only Guy Friend and I truly believe she is uncertain where any possible future with us actually lies. If any.. 😑
“But essentially they’re interchangeable and ultimately disposable.
Kind of like a tampon.”
@ghostzoned,
Btw.. Nominating you for a “Limmy” award for this quote. I totally lmfaoooo…
🤣🤣🤣
Hey Speedwagon,
I think a lot of the behaviour that you are describing could be summed up as immature and limited out of your LO. Trying to make sense of that, as somebody with a broader emotional intelligence and better communication skills yourself, is….futile. [Yay, let’s say it again, with feeling]
“LO right now is going through something emotionally concerning me, I can tell, because she is bringing all this up and also she is texting me more than usual at the moment. These are usually little inside joke around texts that she will send, I might text a comment or two back acknowledging her text and then that is it. Never in these texts does she ever get into sincere conversation with me. She has a certain interpersonal immaturity about her that way.”
I think that she wants to be your main object of attention. That’s why she has brought up your friendship with the other ladies, the ‘favoured position’ theory adds up, as others have said. But due to the immaturity, it seems that she is not really equipped to go about getting it in a sophisticated way and naively asking you what’s up may be her only way of getting back her favoured position. Has she been petulent too? Perhaps I am doing her a disservice. But Thank God that she is not a better flirt or a more emotionally intelligent woman with proper skills of seduction. …..
MJ said: “I can easily see why her inquiry about your friendship with other Ladies in the office, would cause you to scratch your head. That would cause me to wonder as well.”
And LaR said: “The bit I don’t get, if the personal bit matters to her, is why she doesn’t instigate (one of the LwL ladies can probably tell us …) – maybe it is as you say and her communication ability is just a bit immature.”
I think she is trying to instigate herself back into top position amongst the ladies – but in a cack-handed way.
You are maybe on a good road to re-programming away from this woman by musing to yourself about how lucky you are that she is not a great seductress. Cos if she was, she could have worked out how to have you in a weaker position (and you are sensible to this, obviously)
(manoeuvre
/məˈnuːvə/
noun:
1.
a movement or series of moves requiring skill and care.
Besides the ‘futility’, this lack of proper seduction seems like a massive turn off to me (even if its a lucky break). I thin you and SO could work on some old fashioned seduction to break the spell of LO. Halloween is coming 😉
By the way, I say all this because I recognise cack-handedness in my LO too!
“What I can’t understand is, if she knows I have feelings for her, and she has no feelings for me, and our work relationship is good, why does she seem to want more?”
@Speed,
I feel like you’re playing your cards right with this conundrum you’re in. You already provide her with the better projects and your work relationship seems legit. Perhaps she’s hopeful she can squeeze just a little more favor out of you, yet also realizing at this point she doesn’t have it all that bad in the first place. Obviously your disclosure probably twisted some things in her mind at one point, but it wasn’t enough for her to feel creeped out enough by it. She might even recognize some of your regret for that by your current work-interactions now. Sometimes these Women can sure be good at playing games but I feel like with your LO, she at least seems to have a heart.
Perhaps I’m wrong, but this is what I kinda see from the outside, looking in..
@Adam,
You make a great point. Like, why would an LO NOT want to keep a limerent around when they get a lot of our best side without having to endure our worst side??
Speedwagon,
I’ve noticed that sometimes women will get jealous if another woman is getting attention from men, even if they’re not interested in those men.
It’s a competition thing.
MJ,
You could call yourself Lady Friend’s tampon. 🙂
Actually, I think a tampon has much more interesting implications than an orbiter.
“and in your case, Adam, barista.”
ghostzoned
🙂 I did buy her a lot of “coffee”. Though by the time she had all that other stuff added it was more a milkshake than coffee. Otherwise I’d never stepped foot in a coffeehouse before. Even when I drank coffee many years ago it was Folgers at work for free.
At first your post was upsetting. So I let myself simmer. It’s still hurtful to think that’s all I might have been to her. But you are right. That would explain the NC on her part. She’s got someone else now. If anything I am a distant memory.
Lim-a-Rant
Technically that’s all the limerent is getting too. By idealizing the LO we get all the best without any of the worst. Like the line in Lobo’s song How Can I Tell Her …. “everything seems right whenever I’m with you” …. goes for LO and the limerent.
Adam,
I think that’s sometimes right but not always (that limerent gets all the same ‘good without the bad’ benefits from LO). It sounds true of your LE, it is of mine too, but isnt what everyone says. Some ‘dodgy’ LOs will abuse their knowledge of the limerent’s interest and display pretty poor behaviours.
I once had an LO like this who I could now identify as a narcissist. It caused me much greater pain over a short space of time, but it meant I could devalue her and go NC faster.
I don’t know what’s worse, the acute pain when the LO displays bad behaviours like that, or the lower level but drawn out pain when it all feels so pleasant that it makes exiting difficult (even if this does open one up to what ghostzoned so eloquently described 😂)
“You could call yourself Lady Friend’s tampon. 🙂”
@Marcia,
Thanks for that visual.
🙂
MJ,
“Thanks for that visual.”
It’s not MJ anymore. It’s LFT. 🙂
@Bewitched
What you have wrote about social and emotional immaturity adds up to me. And yes, thank God for it because if she was better at it she could really do a number on me. The good news, the more I recognize this about her the more it is a turn off and drops her down a few notches. Over time, it might just ramp down to the LE being fairly extinct. I am in a much better place right now than a few months back so I just want to maintain the same path without LO disrupting it.
I will say this too, refusing to pursue friendship with her also gives me a little power back that I enjoy. It seems mean and selfish on the surface but also it is a survival mechanism to fight against the LE and as Dr.L has written, it is not really an honest friendship anyway. It’s friendship with the intent to pursue her romantically. I’m much better off staying away from that, I’m not professionally obligated to be her friend. I’m good!
Thank you, Speed!
I will work with “accepting” the intrusive thoughts. Will let you know how it goes.
Your second point also makes a lot of sense. It’s like okay I am engaging LO, but what’s the end game? It’s really not going to happen, so why bother?
LC/NC works well for me, so will be working with that.
Wish you the best!
Hey ABCD,
Just responding to this:
“Any advice on how I can break the LO – reward cycle? I probably know this stuff already, but would still appreciate advice and a pep talk.”
ABCD, you are going through something traumatic and have suffered recently, therefore you mind is unable to escape LO as LO thoughts are a comforting distraction from other pain. This is totally understandable. When I went through this myself I adopted the following approach: Maybe turn LO into a cypher (something like an ideal being who loves you) but distance mentally from the real LO.
This can provide distraction from pain while you are coming to terms with that, while get some ‘self medication’ of happy nice warm feelings (you are loved and you are important). Also, focus from time to time on the fact that you do not want real LO and nothing is happening there. In fact, she is not the woman for you (various reasons, not just barriers). Tell yourself that you are only seeking her as a comfort blanket, but the real you is not compatible with the real her – this is just a comfort blanket. For instance, her communication with you when you did draw closer was substandard and did not provide you with what you craved and needed from her. She is a nice lady but she is deficient for you…(sorry if this sounds prescriptive, I found it worked for me but it might not for you).
You mentioned above in one of your replies that you had recently not been able to reduce NC to longer than 2 days due to circumstances outside of your control. This would have made it impossible not to be getting some dopamine highs from interacting with LO. Now it seems those circumstances have eased and you can stretch NC out to longer. This will also help enormously because you will be able to reduce the intrusive thoughts which always come after an interaction (as we dissect everything for the millionth time).
I hope you are doing better this week.
@ABCD,
Sorry to hear that you’re still struggling after we first spoke more than a year ago… I would be in the same boat if my job situation had not be changed.
“I am trying to break these pathways. Though I feel I am making progress, the intrusive thoughts are still painful.“
As I spoke with Bewitched and LaR many times, the issue I see here lies in the phrase “trying to break”. I have to verbosely repeated: the MORE TRYING, the MORE RESISTING, that’s just how the Unconscious works. Reading so many stories here, I’m firmly convinced of C. Jung’s theory.
So try to remove the word “trying”, and assure yourself “they will come again!” Then when they suddenly arrived, you tell yourself, “here they are as I have predicted!” Then calmly (victoriously) watching them passing through your mind and then leaving — nothing can be focused too long by the brain (not even in monks).
Sometimes, letting go of CONTROL is the most effective way to have that uncontrollable go. It seems to have worked for both Bewtiched and LaR who are in the same boat as yours. Perhaps you can give it try? It will take time and repetitions though to have some effects; don’t expect it will work in a couple of weeks.
The 2nd issue I see in the West in general is abstract “pain threshold” is very low; so many people would immediately rush to some non-effective or worse methods for a quick fix: pain pills, bottles, sweets, drugs, SSRI meds etc. I’ve learned to examine/locate where a correspondent physical location is when some mental/emotional pains occur, eg. stomach churching, nausea, leg shaking, or sudden dizziness. Most of the time you can pin point uncomfortable (never sharp) spots ; occasionally it seems everywhere…. Then you stay with the pain on that spot for a bit/while without resisting it, “Here you are!”
Such an examining itself would even reduce emotional pains, because logical thinking is activated. For me and many others, feeling/sensing and thinking/analyzing cannot take place simultaneously; usually the latter will surpass the former. That’s why writing itself (even on the pains) can be therapeutically effective. Again, this “method” would take some time to see a bit of favored results.
Good luck!
Totally agree with you, Snow.
We need to believe something strongly, only then it will be transferred to our sub conscious. I am doing this right now – being more confident that I can navigate LE successfully.
Thanks again!
ABCD, no one wants to hear it, but transference worked for me.
Also, I must encourage you to sign up for that half-marathon. You can use your tendency to obsess towards the race instead of your LO. Just do it!
Hi Lovisa. I am glad you remember about the 0.5 marathon. Thanks for nudging me towards that. Sounds like a great idea, with the weather getting less warmer now.
Been calling Momma “darling” lately and shes like “are you Conway Twitty?” And my yankee ass is like “wha?”
Hi all,
just want to jot down my first impressions after meeting LO in his new home.
It was very nice and relaxed, no charged silences or anything, only pleasant conversation and general affection.
He was the same as ever, happy to see me etc, but never doing something out of character like telling me something emotional or being thoughtful and asking if I need sth to eat or drink for my (long) trip back home;)
Exactly the same good and bad sides as always.
I looked at him and thought I still wouldn’t mind spending the time making out on the sofa instead of talking.. so there’s still some physical attraction going on, but not desperate at all, only as a mind game, and now that I‘m sitting on the train I think I‘m still on my good way out and wouldn’t term it „limerence“ any more.
I noticed that he still thinks about his old job (as my colleague)a lot and would like to come to an extended overseas work trip next year (his old job still being vacant) , I also realized that I‘m neutral about that- I would like to have him there as much as I wouldn’t like to have him there. Really, I cannot decide if I would like it or not.
Also, he‘ll visit with his family next month and I’m not really keen, and the month after he‘ll work with me for a while, to which I’m more looking forward since we work well together, nothing more.
I‘m pretty confident that I‘m really out of the worst and even the second and third worst.
Also, his SO called while I was sitting next to him, and I overheard the whole conversation. He never mentioned I’m there (although she must have known since we texted last week about it, me and her)nor did he respond on her „darling“ greeting or „kisses“good-byes. For my ears it was a stilted conversation and he wasn’t affectionate at all and sounded keen on ending that conversation. While limerent Mila might have felt a little satisfaction at this (it’s more important to him that I‘m here and he feels awkward to show her affection in front of me), this time I just felt satisfaction that he behaves like expected and like the un-glimmering real version of LO, and that I wouldn’t want to be in her shoes.
Hey Mila
I found this quite amusing “I looked at him and thought I still wouldn’t mind spending the time making out on the sofa instead of talking.. so there’s still some physical attraction going on, but not desperate at all, only as a mind game, and now that I‘m sitting on the train I think I‘m still on my good way out and wouldn’t term it „limerence“ any more.”
I don’t know why I am amused. Perhaps it is because I am sure that your attraction to your LO, like mine and Speedwagon’s, is thwarted desire and nothing more! All three LOs seems quite limited in many ways. Whereas some of the others have far more desirable LOs (IMHO, hello?!).
Maybe we should rank our LOs and have something like a ceremony (to rival The Limmys) with various fun categories….
I’ll leave it to Sammy and Limerent Emeritus to ponder on that, since they were so hilarious about the last idea for a ceremony.
Hi Bewitched,
well, thwarted desire isn’t to be underestimated.
I‘d say that LO2 is the least limited and most desirable LO of mine, he is truly a special person and I actually have deep thankful feelings for him for 1. saving me (without knowing it) from my first disastrous LE, 2. never grasping the opportunity to lead me astray but always taking a step backwards whenever it got dangerous, while giving me the feeling to matter to him and being special to him too,
so he is actually the hardest to get over and the most worthy of my LOs for whom I still have a lot of positive feelings.
But!
physical desire for him was there (him being also the best-looking LO) but for some reason it was much stronger in my first LE and also in some way with this LO3, and I have to say it’s for me one of the hardest obstacles to get over. It comes spontaneously, brain cannot control it, and it’s the one very obvious sign that it’s more than just liking someone as a friend.
So I would never play it down as “no more than thwarted desire”.
I mean “nothing more than thwarted desire”.
That aside, I also get the feeling that our LOs might be in a similar category. Maybe we should arrange for them to meet and they’ll be soulmates and best buddies!
Thanks for sharing your experience, Mila. It is great to see that your LE is now more and more under control. You are on the good path, congratulations!
Not getting distressed and feeling neutral when thinking about LO is an awesome achievement.
Hope that I (& others) can reach that stage soon.
Do share any advice/tips on what helped you.
Cheers.
Hi ABCD,
I have to say that of course the moving away of LO was the biggest help. Knowing he won’t be near me anymore and live far away was the big point, I guess. But I have to say that him quitting and then for a year not deciding if he would stay or go spawned the limerence in the first place. Otherwise I might not have developed this LE.
Second big helping thing was him being consistently the way he is. I never felt a threat that he might abandon me as a friend nor did he actively try to get closer than officially “allowed”. He behaved quite the same all the time.
I know I’m not helping here since these things were out of my control.
Reality checks helped me- being with him and observing with open neutral eyes instead of being anxious to please or whatever, just watching and listening and thus seeing /hearing stuff that’s not ideal about him, or signs that he’s not feeling the same as me. (As he was limerent too he was feeling something, but not the way I did.)
But I think every LE and the reasons for it is unique and everyone has to go their own way, I’m not sure if I can deliver any solid advice apart from stay alert to reality.
Time helps too, by delivering mentioned moments of reality and incidents where LO shows bad sides, and by providing distractions and a feeling of “I’ve had enough of this b..s.”
I wish you good luck ABCD.
This phase will pass too.
@Sammy,
Replying to your message about MBTI types but am putting it here in a new thread as the scrolling above is too messy (I did reply separately above to your request for my thoughts on where limerence limbo can sit on the crystallisation curve)
I can understand why you are drawn to ESTPs. EPs in my experience are always very quirky individual people, “not like anyone else we know”, and usually like you say bounce well off IJs.
Are you saying ENFs in your experience are all emotion and no logic? That the fact they are N (instead of S) doesn’t make any difference for bringing logic in?
I do have some problems with the categorisations being binary anyway. I know some people who seem to have very strong sensing AND intuition. So these folks seem not like 50% on the S/N borderline, but more like 80% on both S and N. I also observe 50-50 people and people who don’t seem that strong at either.
With that out of the way, about your ‘opposites attract’ bit … I can see it most with E/I and J/P (S/N is blurred by my caveat above that I don’t run with the binary). An E and an I can work because the E can enjoy bringing the I out of themselves, and the I can feel good for that, like the E helps them be their best self. As a J, I find watching P’s leap around from one ‘good idea’ to the next every ten minutes quite cute, if occasionally infuriating! But I think the combination really works compared to two the same, because the J gets more spontaneity and the P gets a bit more structure and loses the worst of their chaos! So I think opposites in those two traits are generally good together.
A T and an F combo can be tricky if both are towards the poles. It can quite literally feel like the two are on different planets when trying to approach or resolve something. The strong T will find all the emotion unnecessary and distracting to the task at hand. The strong F will find the T’s constant efforts to rely on logic infuriating and condescending. It can take a lot of work and compromise to balance a T and an F understanding of a situation – I speak from experience! Worse when the F pairs with S and the T pairs with N.
I don’t think I have ever tried to make a relationship work with anyone with all 4 MB indicators different to mine. My instinct is it works best with 2 the same, 2 different. All four different like your INFJ and ESTP example – wouldn’t you just wind each other up all the time?!
@LaR
Ha, you sound such an expert on MBTI! Now based on my words, what type sounds like me❓or what letters are possibly involved in my MBTI chat❓
Typo: “in my MBTI chart?”
@LaR,
I responded your other message a half way through last night/early this morning and was going to save it for later, but tiredly hit the wrong button and lost it all… 😡
But my answers were already altered (at least in (re)phrasing sentences) after waking up this morning and then this evening… I’d answer the same set questions somewhat differently… as the time passes… Not sure how answers would be structured or still exist (in my head now) by the time I finally scribble them down… 😃
It’s really not exaggerating to say that I evolve every few hours…. What letter(s) in MBTI covers this kind of trait?
I think my 6 & 9 yrs old boy-pupils might become my pet “limerent” while I couldn’t even discipline them well to efficiently learn. I ended up playing soccer and basketball while tutoring the tireless one and got my old bones and ligaments sore… Well, I did get paid for all bagged extra time and sometimes homemade fresh dinner by the family hired chefs… The smaller one often ended up giggling on the floor/under the desk… Do boys start “LE” even before 10❓🧐
Hi Snow,
“Ha, you sound such an expert on MBTI!”
Not at all. This story would be funny if it wasn’t so tragic, but most of my apparent knowledge about MBTI comes from a short but incorrigible burst of reading/video watching a year or so back to try and work out LO’s character type and how to seem appealing to it 😳. This was one of the biggest futile exercises ever, because it turned out that all that her character type really wants is authenticity and acceptance – and no amount of trying to ‘act a part’ creates that (another example of how limerence takes us off in weird bursts of creativity and learning).
“It’s really not exaggerating to say that I evolve every few hours…. What letter(s) in MBTI covers this kind of trait?”
You are highlighting a problem with MBTI that I knew you’d have, based on all our previous conversations. We shouldn’t use it to box ourselves in or to think we can ‘only’ be that way. You have said before it is futile (LwL word of the week) to try and reduce the human race to 16 basic personalities, and I’d agree. You’ll see in my initial message to Sammy above how I have particular difficulty understanding the second digit of MBTI – sensing vs intuition. For me, some people can be high on both those traits, some people low on both traits.
I am happier with MBTI if I regard it as ‘just my TENDENCIES / preferences’, but flexible. Not a basket that I am trapped in. I would answer a lot of the questions with ‘it depends’, or differently on different days (my third letter flits between F and T in the end result depending on the day). Somebody on here, maybe L.E, once said they were a different MBTI type at work than outside work. So it does, for me, need to be looked at as a flexible thing. But knowing my profile and being able to guess at others can help me understand why I can communicate easily with someone, or not, and what I can do to make it better.
“what type sounds like me❓or what letters are possibly involved in my MBTI chart❓”
I won’t try and answer but I will give you what I think are the base-level questions to help you answer:
I/E – you have already said you are I, flipped in adolescence from E
N/S – do you prefer to navigate a situation based on the background knowledge and intuition you bring into it (I), or based on what you sense going on during it (S)? Are you more about big picture (I) or small details (S)?
F/T – If you were deciding between various courses of action, would you make the decision based on how you and other involved people feel (F), or based on which course of action you think best solves the problem (T)? Is your tendency more to say to yourself or others “I think …” (T) or “I feel …” (P)?
J/P – Do you work more according to plans, to do lists etc. (J), or are you more spontaneous and do whatever feels right at the time (P)? Are you comfortable (P) or uncomfortable (J) with risk and unpredictability?
It might help you to visualise it with the two letters at either end of a line and then work out where you think you are on the line – more than believing that you necessarily need to be at either pole.
“I responded your other message a half way through last night/early this morning and was going to save it for later, but tiredly hit the wrong button and lost it all… 😡”
Don’t worry – just respond to bits you want to when you can, but don’t see it as a pressure. I know very well how much time LwL can take if we let it! (one hour and counting for me on various reading and replies, but I do have a bit of spare time today). Don’t feel you have to reply to every bit. I also have experience of losing whole long messages when getting distracted, and it is frustrating!
“Do boys start “LE” even before 10❓🧐”
I had a crush on a teacher at 11 that I can remember. And kids grow up faster these days!
LaR, don’t worry – we’ve all done stupid research when it comes to our LO’s. Mine actually got me interested and delving into things like agriculture, etc. So it’s been quite educational if nothing else! 👍
re: “all that her character type really wants is authenticity and acceptance” – Can I ask which MBTI she is? Because that describes me as well.
Although, I very much agree with ghostzoned’s wife “true to a Logician, my SO would likely dismiss MBPI as pseudo-scientific nonsense.” And I assume I’m an INTP – I’ve never tested and I really don’t want to get into that “pseudo-scientific nonsense”. 😉 I’m just curious if I totally contradict the INTP self-diagnosis with the “authenticity” part. (Which would prove my point that you can’t put me in a box, damnit!)
Trifles,
Your agriculture thing made me laugh!
If you can cope with the psycho-babble just for a bit, you can do a free test in a couple of places and it only takes 5 or 10 minutes. First in any Google searches (and where I did it) is:
https://www.16personalities.com/
I am not sure if the test at this site is any better but I think I have seen others on LWL recommend it: https://www.personalitydata.org/16-types/free-personality-test.
If you want the lowdown on INTP, it is here: https://www.16personalities.com/intp-personality.
Swap in extraversion and you will have where I was looking before.
This site also has a test and compatibility stuff between different types:
https://www.truity.com/page/personality-type-interactions-compatibility
Disclaimer to you or anyone else reading this – I am not sure how scientific any of the tests or information on these sites is. The official Myers Briggs site wants to charge $60 for its test and follow up, which makes me doubt these freebie sites.
LaR, so I was close with the INTP guess. I will think about testing…tomorrow. I just resist putting people/myself in boxes.
And yes, LO was the outdoorsy as well as intellectual type, and also I wanted to keep him engaged. So if he wanted to discuss agriculture, I was all in! (Sometimes rolling my eyes to myself: so this is what we are talking about now…) And I quickly read up on the subject. …Oh no, now you’ve got me talking about LO! However, notice my use of past tense while talking about him – impressive, eh?
Talking about Agriculture⁉️
I’ve been 😂😂😂 since I work up… my stomach hurts now… 😂
Snow, happy to know I could be of help in your ab workout!
But I didn’t know agriculture was so funny! What if I had been a farmer? You can’t possibly know what us ghosts do in real life… 😉
@Trofles,
A very good question you’ve raised: if a farmer or a blacksmith or a shepherd, etc. fall into limerence, what sorts of unbelievable LE behavior would they conduct?
I totally agree with you that us limerence would be extra 10000 miles to do what we believe could please our LOs…
@Trifles,
“so I was close with the INTP guess”
I’d expect nothing less from a fellow intuitive. Just one digit out.
But then on my research binge I also remember I looked at ESTP and ENFP profiles and they basically said the same thing about wanting authenticity and acceptance. It got me thinking – what personality type *wouldn’t* want that from another person?! This is where it all becomes a bit ‘horoscope’ and I start to doubt the ‘science’!
One day when I am safely on the other side of my LE, to go with your agriculture I will list out a few weird things I ‘suddenly got all knowledgeable on’ 😅
@LIm-a-rant.
“I can understand why you are drawn to ESTPs. ”
Maybe I should change my answer to say I was drawn to one ESTP. Only one. Don’t give a tuppence about the rest. Limerence is nothing if not a manifestation of the human penchant for the particular. 🙂
“Are you saying ENFs in your experience are all emotion and no logic?”
I’m saying my own brain toggles effortlessly back and forth between feeling and thinking. I think my F/T scores sit at very close to 50/50. Disappointed that other human brains in my experience have proven less efficient at toggling. 🙂
“The strong F will find the T’s constant efforts to rely on logic infuriating and condescending.”
Correct. My mother (F) grew to hate the fact my father (T) was “right about everything”. Discussions stopped being discussions and became quarrels.
My father probably wasn’t able to validate my mother’s feelings in the way she wanted her feelings validated. The quality of their relationship suffered as a result.
“All four different like your INFJ and ESTP example – wouldn’t you just wind each other up all the time?!”
My XLO didn’t wind me up while I was limerent for him. He was quite perfect in my eyes. Couldn’t put a foot wrong. However, I had a slightly different personality back then. I was much shyer and quieter than I am today.
Sometimes, just for kicks, I do things I know my XLO might do. I channel his fearless extrovert personality as a kind of psychological exercise. For example, the other day, I walked into an extremely elegant men’s restroom outside an expensive department store. The interior of the restroom was very luxurious, beautiful lighting, etc. I waved my hands in the air and announced in a loud contralto voice, replete with upper-class accent: “Whoa! This place is POSH!”
Got a few laughs. You can’t say my daily life lacks in excitement. 😊
@Sammy,
“Limerence is nothing if not a manifestation of the human penchant for the particular. 🙂”
Yes! Why ‘this person’ and not ‘this other person who is to all intents and purposes like this person’ is one of the great mysteries. It would be no fun if we could solve them all, eh.
“Sometimes, just for kicks, I do things I know my XLO might do”
I am definitely getting a feel from your various anecdotes about what your XLO was like, and what attracted you to him. Some of the ETP personality quirks and random behaviours are truly delightful. That vision of you in the department store is amusing.
“Correct. My mother (F) grew to hate the fact my father (T) was “right about everything”. Discussions stopped being discussions and became quarrels. My father probably wasn’t able to validate my mother’s feelings in the way she wanted her feelings validated.”
Without having to talk about your mother and father more if that feels too personal, this part really interests me. From your experiences, what could the two people in this situation hypothetically do (that is reasonable for them both) to make the communication work better? (cough cough, yes there is an element here of ‘asking for a friend’). The T will continue thinking they are right, and the F will continue to be frustrated at not getting their emotions validated. Full disclosure – my bias is to come down on the side of the T. If the T reduces their thinking/logical behaviour too much to suit the F’s emotional preferences, it can feel like the T is parenting the F, and/or the T not having their (still ‘obviously correct’) opinion allowed. But, as you are an F, maybe you can hit me back with some insight from the other direction…
@Lim-a-rant.
“From your experiences, what could the two people in this situation hypothetically do (that is reasonable for them both) to make the communication work better?”
Speaking very generally, I guess the T could worry less about rattling off all the relevant facts and just let the F go on about their feelings. Or the F could try to acknowledge the validity of facts occasionally while sharing their feelings.
Ts often feel drained by Fs sharing their feelings all the time.
Fs often ask for advice, making it sound like they want logical input. However, what they really want is emotional connection with their partners – and, yes, an opportunity to talk about their feelings some more.
As you probably already know, it’s really hard for either the T or the F to adjust their own behaviour/expectations to accommodate others. It’s really hard for people to go against the grain of their own personalities. It feels like self-betrayal. I.e. if I put my partner’s needs ahead of my own, my own needs will never be met. Everyone thinks deep down “my way is the right way” and wants others to conform to the pattern they feel most comfortable with.
If a T and an F in a relationship actually know about their different preferences, and can good-naturedly acknowledge and discuss how their different preferences are influencing their different communication styles, that might lead to a way out of the impasse. But both parties would have to lose their defensiveness first.
As an F, I used to find my dad’s communication style deeply annoying and invalidating. It felt like he and I couldn’t connect emotionally, and he was being obtuse on purpose. But then I realised he was looking for recognition too, just like any other human being. I stopped withholding recognition from my father.
I discovered that if I let my dad “talk facts” for a sufficiently long period of time, he feels seen, lightens up, and starts to tell jokes. Or he starts to acknowledge that other people don’t agree with him or maybe he doesn’t know everything. My next move is laugh heartily at all his jokes. He softens up some more. Tells more jokes. By the end of the evening, we’re bantering back and forth like old friends.
I let my T father be the “dominant” party in conversations even if he is transparently in the wrong – this is a price I’m willing to pay for a good relationship with my father. I NEVER correct my father when he is factually wrong, which he is occasionally. As a T, so much of my father’s self-worth is invested in knowing the facts about something. He’d feel hurt deep down if I didn’t let him share what he has so laboriously learned. If I started challenging him, he’d shut down.
I don’t talk about my feelings with my father. I sense my father would stare at me blankly if I talked about my feelings. But physical contact is a “love language” we both talk. I am crazy about being touched. When my father’s skin touches my skin, the emotional connection is deep and instant. (As a male, I never invade my father’s space, I respectfully wait for him to come to me. My sisters, on the other hand, being females, may initiate physical contact).
The father-son dance is different from the father-daughter dance. As a male, I understand the importance of never making another male feel like he is in a one-down position. I interact with my T father in such a way that he is vulnerable around me in the ways he chooses to be vulnerable around me, but he never FEELS LIKE he is being vulnerable around me. He always feels safe and comfortable. 🙂
@Sammy
There are fine goldmines of information in that reply, thank you.
It’s funny because my SO is far towards an F, I am T but quite
‘in the middle’ (I am wondering if you are similar – able to flip modes to more T at times – I say this based on comments you made that you have found some people too emotional), my father like yours is a very extreme T. I run into communication issues with both of them at times, most likely because of these differences.
So what I’ve taken from your reply is I can have a basket of approaches at my disposal. With my father I can do as you do, and let him put all his theories about the world out there and then he’ll lighten up (I see this pattern too now you mention it). With my SO I can better appreciate that she wants acknowledgement and discussion of feelings, not the intellectual solution I’d prefer to get. I like your idea actually of bringing it over the table and saying – ‘where are you from an F standpoint?’ and ‘where am I from a T standpoint?’ and working out how to harmonise the two. But then I would like that overly theoretical way of dealing with it, wouldn’t I – he says, playing into the T stereotype 😅
Anyway cheers for taking the time to explain that more. I am clearly going to be winning at life now, armed with this new intel!
Can’t take you ANYwhere! lol
@Serial Limerent.
“Can’t take you ANYwhere! lol”
😜
Some thoughts about M-B compatibility.
My own wonderful wife would be INTP.
Depending on which site, compatibility with an INFJ such as myself ranges from good to poor.
Though, true to a Logician, my SO would likely dismiss MBPI as pseudo-scientific nonsense.
Although the connection between us doesn’t flow quite as naturally as some of my past (ie failed) LTR’s, it just means that we make a conscious effort to work at communication and commitment.
For example, we’ve gotten into the habit of talking about important issues in more than one way, which could sound pedantic to some, but avoids miscommunication.
We’ve both made compromises and sacrifices to make our marriage a success.
We have definite differences in opinions and approach to important things, and she will calmly voice her own views and why they are superior (she doesn’t state them so, but I accept that she’s usually right).
We also have routines including time together as well as giving ourselves our own space.
*(such predictability may be contributing to my susceptibility to anyone who seems exciting, I now realise).
Now when I compare with MPDG (my LO).
Both tick all my boxes, and are roughly on par in terms of physical attraction (yes, even with SO being a generation ahead).
But the connection between MPDG and me, whenever she turns on that sparkle, is electric!
She’s an ENFP (Campaigner), which according to all sources, is a rare and potent match for an INFJ like me.
Her eyes have a way of searching for my soul.
And she somehow knows that I won’t engage in idle chitchat, so all her questions, if not about me, are about my opinion on something.. it’s like she really wants to dig deep into how I work.
And she only does this when there’s no one else around, so there’s less reason to hold back.
It’s a powerful effect, these private conversations, making me feel that I’m important to her.
(now I know that MPDG does this with several others, though)
Most people might say that comparing the attraction with SO and LO is simply the difference between love and lust..
I would say that there’s distinct compatibility qualities involved as well.
(* from past relationships, I will add that compatibility is decidedly not enough, and working together is what makes a marriage)
Lim-a-rant,
I think you replied on a post of mine but I’m too impatient to find it..
I just wanted to tell you that I seem to have developed an automatic response to LO after all that time of trying to level him down from fantasy LO, much like the automatic fantasizing limerent response from earlier times.
Now, my mind automatically starts to look for his bad sides and reasons to devalue him. Not when I was actually seeing him yesterday in reality, but afterwards. That’s interesting, isn’t it? Before, I had trained myself to get lost in mooning about his desirable features, now I seem to have trained myself to play his good sides down and the bad ones up.
While it’s certainly good for erasing any left over limerence, it’s also a bit sad.
But I accept it and think there will come a time where that too won’t happen anymore and I can just perceive him as he is.
Mila, it is really interesting! So in a way your brain has internalised the ‘devalue’ principle and done it for itself, without you forcing it (Snow would be a fan of this method and might say it is ‘your Athena speaking’).
I wasn’t on LwL during the earlier parts of your journey here through this LE – but I get the feeling you have always been able to see your LO’s flaws to some extent. Now that the limerent part is over, your brain probably just doing a more realistic balancing act between what’s good and bad about him. It is OK to find some aspects of his behaviour frustrating!
I am open to my own brain doing this about my LO and I think it has started to. But (based on info from your other post this morning) my feeling is that she is more like your LO2 than your LO3 in terms of the sort of human she is and the sort of behaviours she exhibits.
Lim-a-rant and Snow,
I also think it wouldn’t be Athena but a more aggressive and unreasonable god/goddess.
I don’t like it much. I have been aware of LOs flaws all the time, knowing him for over ten years without limerence, but this kind of devaluing him is something trained that isn’t quite fair to him.
Still, better than the limerent mess. I’ll just try to keep it in check a bit. Time will even it all out, I guess.
Do you not see any traits of your LO that are not that loveable? My LO2 is great, I love him, but I know some annoying traits of him, too.
More aggressive and unreasonable? That’s Hera.
I know xLO’s fatal flaw (against my taste — people pleasing, Sensor), but the proportion of mystery in this xLO/LE out-weights the defects, which leaves room for me to imagine, without any further consequences….
Life without certain amount of mystery would be so boring… Why so many want to know/control natural unknowns, such as ever evolving human traits?
Hera sounds right, Snow! Feels like petulant Hera.
Hera, Vengeful as well.
Exactly, exactly. Poor Hera, she comes across badly in all the myths, somehow.
@Mila
“Do you not see any traits of your LO that are not that loveable?”
I do see some. They aren’t aimed in my direction much, but I get glimpses, and I am working to internalise them more. I am really making progress at seeing the whole ‘real’ LO and that’s the main thing that’s helping me. I just suspect I will end up feeling more like you do about your LO2 than your LO3. Open to being wrong though.
Lim-a-rant,
well, I can allow myself to feel like that about LO2 because he moved away and we have regular, but not frequent contact. I‘m not sure if I would have managed that if he had stayed here.
One thing I was always sure of was, that my SO was in every case the better SO for me. Even with LO2 it wouldn’t have worked out so well, he‘s too different, too extrovert and demanding for me, he always needs a sparring partner. Can you imagine a life/day to day relationship with your LO that would be equal or better than life with your SO? It’s a dangerous mindgame, but me, I was always able to say no, and that helped.
Athena would not want to kill Aphrodite, just keep her clam, or send her to calm Ares…
Good old Athena. You keep helping me to understand her better and better!
@LImerent Emeritus.
“No, I’m still waiting for my Limmy to arrive in the mail. It’s been several years.”
Condolences, brother. Excellence is its own reward. Take comfort in the knowledge that you are clearly the most deserving Limmy who ever lived. (We’ll forget about Jaideux. She’s more deserving than you, but she’s too agreeable to protest at the injustice of being overlooked yet again during awards season). 🙂
If you didn’t exist, LwL would have to invent you. You know I secretly suspect this whole site exists solely for your benefit… If coffeehouse conversations are anything to go by, you’re probably the only person who read the articles. And when I say you read the articles, I mean you read the titles of the articles. 😁
In all seriousness, though, you have helped me recover from limerence, simply by being yourself and sticking to your guns and giving your unvarnished opinion on things. I will now say that two words to you that your own children will likely never say to you in your own lifetime – thank you. 🙏
““The Real Limerents of —-” – pick a place”
Sounds awful. Thank you for warning me in advance. I’ll make a note never to appear on said show in any capacity. There are, like, four thousand LwLers I’m currently avoiding on the grounds of “artistic differences”. I doubt we could work together constructively. 🙂
Actually, this comment reminds me of my favourite finale from Drag Race. The audience is about to find out which queen won. The third queen, who obviously didn’t win, glowered at both contestants in displeasure: “Well, if you want my opinion, I think you’re both awful!” 😜
@Trifles.
“Sammy, was that an audition for your opening monologue?”
No, that was my speech honouring Limerent Emeritus when he receives his Lifetime Achievement Award. The timing of said speech doesn’t matter. Of course, since LE is the awardee, he’s probably the one who should be speaking. But whatever. Details, details. I’m just giving him some inspiration. 🙂
“I vote … to be the CEO of that Mustache Remover Incorporation.”
I don’t know her. I **cough, cough** still don’t know her. (Pop culture reference alert. It’s what one nameless diva allegedly said about another nameless diva, whenever journalists bring up rumours of a bitter feud between the two). 🙂
@Marcia.
“No, we’re just going to have the orchestra play over people who ramble on too long… 🙂”
That’s not a bad idea actually. What a charming way to cut people off mid-sentence! As a so-called INFJ, I’m always on the lookout for lovely ways to get other people to shut up. Now I know the solution – I just need to travel with my own musical ensemble in tow. When the violins start to play… 🙂
And don’t event organisers play over ramblers in real life anyway? I.e. celebrities who take too long to say their thank-yous? 🤔
@Serial Limerent.
“Those would be my brownies! Mine are celebrated in my little circle. 🙂 This is just such an occasion to make them.”
Good to know. I thought you looked familiar. Say hello to Morticia and Uncle Fester for me. Party animal! 🙂
@MJ.
“We’ll also need a version of “The Golden Limerent” since some of us here are 50+.. 🤣🤣”
You’re a sweet man, MJ. I’m sure we’ll find some award for you. Maybe we can’t give it to you on merit. But what about an “A for effort” kind of deal? 😜
“You’re a sweet man, MJ. I’m sure we’ll find some award for you.”
@Sammy,
Awww, you’re far too kind my Friend. An A for effort will do just fine..
You’re post is hilarious. Another delight to read before I go to sleep..
🤣😂😴
If we could make that happen, I’d definitely like to see Marcia as this year’s Golden Limerent.. Since her and I are both 50+ and she likes to remind me of that. Hopefully she would give me a rose.. ⚘🙂
MJ and Adam,
“If we could make that happen, I’d definitely like to see Marcia as this year’s Golden Limerent…”
I think you know where you both can go with this comment.
I would nominate Marcia “most feisty limerent”, mainly because I have only a vague idea what “feisty” means and always wanted to use that word.
@Mila,
Feisty.. Just try to imagine a feral Cat caught in a tiny cage that wants out bad.
🙂
MJ, really?
On Google it said „lively, determined, courageous“.
Have to think of another nomination. Sorry Marcia!
“Lively, determined, courageous.”
Well yes, a feral Cat caught in a cage would be lively, determined and courageous at wanting out..
I think it fits.. 🙂
@Mila
Are you kidding? I bet Marcia would love to be called feisty! 😉
Well, now I’m really confused as to what „feisty“ means..I even don’t know how to pronounce it.
“Feisty” is the word I always used here to describe my beloved Granny, without whom I could not have possibly survived under Mother’s narcissistic grip…
All this adoration for Ms. Marcia..
I love it.. 🙂
MJ,
Is this an example of transference playing right out in front of us all here? 😅
LaR,
I’ve tried to keep it under wraps, but Ms. Marcia knows I’ve been crushing on her for awhile.. 🙂
*sneaks in and sets it down*
https://youtu.be/ArFiDG9fhgI?si=PIzdqUiiH2bJiaKM
*sneaks back out giggling*
@Adam,
That one is actually on my LO playlist. Except the one I have on there is a version by Muse. Lyrics are so perfect.
Thank you, Sammy!
Being the self-appointed (an ENTJ thing) LwL Curmudgeon in Residence is a heavy burden but sometimes you just have to rise to the occasion and accept the greatness destiny has thrust upon you. Frodo didn’t want to be the Ring Bearer but he accepted the job. He got a 3 book and movie deal out of it.
WRT Jaideux, Susan Lucci was nominated for an Emmy 21 times and won once. It took the Israelites 40 years to get out of the wilderness and Moses never did get into the Promised Land. As Marcia noted, Lifetime Achievement Awards are more bones tossed at someone to acknowledge their longevity and volume of their work. Since I created the Limmys, I was getting the first one no matter what anybody said. Jaideaux deserves better.
As the great prophet Jimmy Buffet said in “Changes In Latitudes, Changes In Attitudes:” – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmnLLkJfurg
“Oh, yesterdays are over my shoulder
So I can’t look back for too long
There’s just too much to see waiting in front of me
And I know that I just can’t go wrong
With these changes in latitudes, changes in attitudes
Nothing remains quite the same
With all of my running and all of my cunning
If I couldn’t laugh I just would go insane
If we couldn’t laugh we just would go insane
If we weren’t all crazy we would go insane”
@LImerent Emeritus.
“… sometimes you just have to rise to the occasion and accept the greatness destiny has thrust upon you.”
Haha. I like that. Some people just have greatness thrust upon them. 🙂
“Being the self-appointed (an ENTJ thing) LwL Curmudgeon in Residence is a heavy burden…”
At this point, you’re less Curmudgeon in Residence than a kind of constitutional monarch, whose presence provides a sense of continuity while flashy politicians come and go, trying to catch the popular vote. 🙂
@Limerent Emeritus.
Some more thoughts for you. I think, under your facade of surliness, I do detect a note of glumness, no? I’m sorry people haven’t been able to see the great pain under your grumpy exterior. If I were in your shoes, I’d feel grumpy too. You have every right in the world to feel extremely upset.
I agree with you that the situation Jaideux found herself in was unfair. I also agree that the situations you found yourself in repeatedly were unfair.
I think, if both LO and limerent are just shallow people and both LO and limerent are playing inane mind-games with each other (with the other’s full in-advance knowledge and consent), then limerence can be just a harmless diversion. A waste of time, absolutely. A pathetic and pointless cat-and-mouse game. But not something likely to leave lasting scars.
However, I think limerence can be incredibly hurtful and destructive in situations such as yours and Jaideux’s were one person earnestly desires a relationship and the LO doesn’t. Jaideux is correct – the behaviour of the LO in these cases is cruel and manipulative and hugely unethical.
There’s a time and a place for silliness, and there’s a time and a place for seriousness. For the lovesick limerent who sincerely seeks a relationship, romance is no laughing matter. Toying with others’ feelings is a form of emotional abuse.
You are a really good man, Limerent Emeritus. It’s appalling to me that people have consistently failed to empathise with you and your story, and treated you like some mean-spirited ogre. Integrity is something money can’t buy. I have crazy respect for the level of integrity you’ve displayed.
Your wife is lucky to have you as a husband, although I’m sure you will insist that you are the one who lucked out in the marital stakes. 🙂
@Limerent Emeritus.
Yet some more thoughts for you. (Have we become friends at last?) 🙂
I was reading the other day that moderate social democracy is always a better form of governance than radical utopianism. I feel this observation is very relevant to Dr. Bellamy and how he may wish to run his site.
Basically, the radical utopians may be right about everything. They may have the most humane ideals. (INFJs are prone to idealism). However, even if one is right about everything, one can’t ethically impose one’s ideals on other people, so moderate social democracy is the way to go.
I think the beauty of moderate social democracy is hopefully the cream, i.e. the best ideas/values, will rise to the top. The effective ideas will outcompete the less effective ideas. Of course, we all know that in reality the best ideas don’t always triumph and corruption runs rife in every place where multiple humans gather.
But the reason why moderate social democracy should be adopted over other models of governance is because in moderate social democracy, at least there is a slim CHANCE that some of the good ideas will be heard. I.e. one can plant seeds in people’s minds that there may be a better way to do certain things. There’re opportunities to help people who want help.
Also, if you’re confused about Dr Bellamy’s leadership style, INFJs often “lead from behind” and “lead by example”. INFJs are more about subtly inspiring people than they are about telling people what to do. INFJs often do end up having an extraordinary influence on other people, but the influence is invisible. INFJ values sneak their way into the Collective Unconscious. The INFJ may not even need to voice their ideals/values.
Long story short, please don’t feel like your captain is asleep at the wheel. Time alone will reveal the true extent of Dr Bellamy’s (beneficial) influence on people’s lives. Progress isn’t always linear; results aren’t always tangible. 🙂
Sammy,
I don’t think I’m either grumpy or upset. I tend to post in terms of “Limerence Noir” that show the more cynical and gritty aspects of limerence and LEs and just how detailed things can get with an LO.
Soulmates, twin flames, epic poetry, or grand opera are one thing.
Spousal support, custody arrangements, therapy, and restraining orders are something else.
Sugar coating limerence doesn’t do anybody any favors. Limerence carries risk.
I came to LwL looking for answers to some nagging questions. I found them here.
WRT shallow people: “Be assured that a walk through the ocean of most souls would scarcely get your feet wet.” – “Deteriorata” National Lampoon (1972) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVi0z83gIzo#ddg-play
I’m not confused about DrL’s leadership style at all. I’ve been watching LwL evolve and mature for over 6 years now. It’s gone from a website to a brand. He’s launching a brand now. It’s really cool to see things like this happen. We are lucky he has the time to write the weekly blogs. There are probably more productive things that he could be doing. We should be grateful.
I have no authority on LwL. I meddle as much as I do partly out of a sense of payback. If I can help keep his attention off this place, he can focus his efforts elsewhere. LwL is his site with his vision and his rules. It’s kind of arrogant but I’ll probably keep doing it until DrL whacks me and tells me to quit.
Tangent: I saw the same kind of thing with LO #4 but her brand really never took off. Considering what her ex did for a living and the contacts he had, she could have been really big. She said that he wanted to keep their professional live separate. I could never understand how you wouldn’t promote and advance the career of someone you professed to love. When she told me that her BF was a narcissist, it all made sense. He was holding her back. She was to be the moon to his sun and he didn’t want her shining in her own light. He wanted her to be a reflection of his light be in his orbit.
I had the same attitude with LO #4. As a moderator, if I could shift burden off of her so she could focus elsewhere, I was paying her back for what I learned on her site and for her acting as an unpaid second opinion on the treatment of my son for anxiety and depression. I was the steward and she was the monarch. Unfortunately, that led to an attachment with complications down the road.
Good limerents have good constructs.
@Limerent Emeritus.
“Sugar coating limerence doesn’t do anybody any favors. Limerence carries risk.”
I couldn’t agree with you more. But you’re coming from an angle of wanting to preserve existing relationships. I’m not thinking about limerence from the perspective of risks to relationships. I’m thinking about limerence from the perspective of risks to my own mental health and my desire as an individual to live with integrity – even if that integrity is absurdly higher than the average person’s.
I think I’m trying to get a handle on what I myself actually believe about limerence. However, if I freely stated what I believe about limerence, based purely on my own experience, other people would see me as (1) intolerant and illiberal, because I am both of those things, and (2) a hypocrite who can’t live up to his own ideals, which is also true. The truth is the real me is both humourless and unlikeable. I’m not a playful and easy-going person in real life. I adopt a playful, easy-going social mask for the sole benefit of others.
Personally, after thinking about it at great length, I consider all forms of limerence immoral. And I despise all forms of immorality.
The only form of limerence that is arguably moral is when it occurs between two single people who are free to act. However, these two people are only going to get three years of bliss, max. And then they might be incompatible once the bliss wears off. So why even bother going down that route? Of course, most limerents experience serial limerences and just lie about it. Just keep chasing the bliss with someone new, etc. How much euphoria does one person need?
I hate being flirted with by women sincerely. (What does this creature even want from me?) I hate being flirted with by women insincerely. (Insincere flirting is even worse than sincere flirting, because I hate all forms of deceit, manipulation, and phoniness).
At the core of my being, I’m a misogynist. (All gay men are misogynists. Deep-rooted misogyny is a critical part of what makes gay men gay in the first place). However, despite being a misogynist, I can be and choose to be extremely kind to women, because I understand my hatred of women doesn’t give me a right to hurt women’s feelings. But all the play-acting can become exhausting. I yearn for authenticity in relationships, and not endless phoniness.
Why do I hate women? I probably hate women because my mother used me for narcissistic gratification, which is the same behaviour a lot of toxic female LOs would indulge in. However, I realise many men and women would consider such behaviour harmless. I just may have an oversensitivity to being cruelly treated like an object.
I’m not terribly crazy about being flirted with by men. If a given man isn’t interested in me – and I’ve never met a man who was sincerely interested in me – I’ll tolerate nonsense up to a point, I’ll be kind, etc, but my patience has limits. I never show my anger, but I have a lot of righteous anger in my soul, and I’m quick to anger. Where there is no anger, there’s also no love. Anger is testament to the fact that I … used to love someone. I’m a paradox: I am both kind and intolerant.
Basically, I’m a man who can be amazing with people. But deep down, in my heart of hearts, I loathe the people I’m so good at making feel good. The reason I hate people is nobody seems to be authentic enough. Nobody is trying hard enough to live up to the ideals they say they believe in. Everybody is “fake” on some level. This criticism applies to both men and women equally. But, if my mother is anything to go by, most women expect to be forgiven for fakeness a lot faster than most men expect to be forgiven.
I’m not sure if it’s healthy for me to always pretend to be so tolerant when I actually feel intolerant. But I’m not going to start grumping at people. I tend to avoid people I have lost all respect for. (I lost all respect for myself a long time ago. I’ve avoided myself for years), 😜
On the other hand, I know I don’t have a right to impose my ideals on others. Let’s face it: if everyone on earth adopted my ideals, they’d be no relationships, no sex, no babies, no marriage, no friendship, no pleasant social occasions. Everyone would have to live out their lives in solitude: solitary nuns and monks in their individual caves. I realise I’m the one who’s out of step with society’s values. I also can’t seem to embrace natural law. I don’t come from Jupiter. I come from an even colder and much more distant planet – Pluto.
My XLO – I could tolerate him while I was under his spell. I could forgive his despicable behaviour. I could turn a blind eye to his … irregularities. But was he worth my time? Not really. Was he worth someone else’s time? Well, that’s someone else’s call to make.
Snowphoenix, I’ll be 100% honest with you – I don’t like you as a person. I have never liked you as a person at any point in the past and I will never like you as a person at any point in the future. Your personality just doesn’t “chime” with mine.
I can use my brilliant social skills to make you feel at ease, but nothing you say or do will ever make me feel at ease. Our relationship can only ever be one-sided i.e. me giving and you taking. I’ve given you everything I have to give. If you want more, you must find other sources of giving.
Snowphoenix, perhaps the biggest reason I don’t like you as a person is you come across as entitled. You act like you were/are entitled to my time, my energy, my attention. This is NOT the case. You are not entitled to anything from me. I don’t know you. You are a stranger on the Internet. I know I said we were friends – I was lying. We are not friends. We will never be friends. We are distant acquaintances at best.
Your attempts to tease me or play-flirt with me weren’t cute. You came/come across as a brat. I just can’t respect a grown woman who acts like a brat. Yes, maybe Marcia can be a tiny bit bratty too. But Marcia and I have known each other a long time, and we kind of understand each other. I feel comfortable with Marcia. I think Marcia knows when to push things and when not to push things. I will tolerate iffy behaviour from individuals I feel comfortable with that I won’t tolerate from individuals I don’t feel comfortable with.
Ladies, you now know where you stand. Around me, I expect you to behave yourselves at all times. I want to be treated with kindness and respect and the maximum amount of courtesy you can muster. Think about the impact play-flirting may have on others who perhaps may see such play-flirting as an affront to their self-respect. It’s never too late to learn the virtue of tact. Men have feelings too. It’s wrong to use men for narcissistic gratification.
Wow, Sammy!
I didn’t see that coming.
Years ago, one of my college buddies said, “I like people who like me.”
I don’t remember the context but I though it was a great idea.
Kurt Vonnegut said, “We are what pretend to be so we must be careful what we pretend to be.” – Mother Night
If people think you’re a nice guy and charming company, to them you are those things whether you’re only pretending or not.
Ah, sincere flirting.
Thank you, Sammy, for putting a finger on it.
I didn’t know there was a difference.. until my LO.
I’d only ever experienced the ‘insincere’, playful, plausibly deniable type.
I understand the game of it, if you like them, and how they’re playing, simply flirt
back 🫦
But it’s something I rarely engage in, not wanting to give the wrong message..
My own reaction to MPDG’s approaches were exactly the same!
“What does this creature want from me? We don’t even work together.. and I’m married!”
It was the covert and intimate nature of our interactions, the absence of the expected playfulness, that threw me.
Which is to say, in public, MPDG likes playing with people, but in private she reveals her quiet and intense side.
Some may find it flattering, but I found it disturbing, perhaps because she’s going from stranger to intimate without any in-between.
I guess that’s a habit developed after years of serial dating?
Some of her questions make me wonder whether she’s dated married co-workers before 🤔
I understand at an intellectual level that limerence is like living with an unexploded bomb 💣
But it has spurred me to ‘live purposefully’, which I’m still trying to define..
MPDG has definitely brought out qualities and motivation in me that have been dormant.
We all have multiple aspects to our personalities, but some are more prominent.
Other aspects only emerge in the right circumstances, and/or with certain people.
I think the aim of living purposefully is to build on these, in the absence of our LO.
@Sammy,
Thank you for letting me/us know a true mind of a brilliantly misogynist, moralist, Aspie, and Plutonist.
“Snowphoenix, I’ll be 100% honest with you – I don’t like you as a person. I have never liked you as a person at any point in the past and I will never like you as a person at any point in the future. Your personality just doesn’t “chime” with mine.”
Thank you for being honest, like an authentic Aspie! It’s more than fine that you didn’t, don’t and won’t like me here as a “person”/ghost (you shall never know me in reality anyway). Ask yourself seriously, do I need or want your liking for living or thriving?
I now feel even lucky that my personality does not “chime” with yours, or I might end up living in a cave or melting around “shouting” cruel things to caring men and women, who might not be 50% Stoic or 50% Buddhistic.
“I can use my brilliant social skills to make you feel at ease,”
NO, you can NOT! Since last October, I already tasted your melting down behavior and innate ability to be “cruel” (not defined by your Aspie world). Myself — my monologue, colorful imagination (with xLO’s quiet, humane tolernce) have 100 times more inspirational abilities to make myself “feel at ease.” In addition, just as you confessed, your “brilliant social skills” are only pretense, which you could not help reveal so honestly even without any external pressure.
“but nothing you say or do will ever make me feel at ease. Our relationship can only ever be one-sided i.e. me giving and you taking.
This may sound Selfish: I don’t come here and socialize in LwL is to make you feel at ease, which is entirely your own business and responsibility! “Our relationship”? Did/do we have a relationship, besides rivalry/“bitter feud” (I am certainly not bitter)? Father and xLO have taught me well how to forgive others’ vulnerabilities.
Yes, you, along with many others here, have given a great deal of new conceptions, theories, imaginations, experiences (common or bizzarre) which beneficially pushed me to explore and understand better myself, others and the world. For this, I thank YOU and others for your and their “giving”, sincere or pretense.
“I’ve given you everything I have to give. If you want more, you must find other sources of giving.”
I certainly did not expect or put a gun on your head to demand your “giving”. Want more? More of what? Besides your patronizing, authoritative tones, INTJ/INFJ boxed, unrealistic thoughts, generalizing, dry theories, different LwL-pen names, fabricated, entertaining jokes, flattery/insincere compliments, what else do you have to offer me? And you have just admitted you’re a cold Plutonian, are you going to offer some pebbles and gems from that planet?
Why do you think I needed or wanted something from you, when we just seriously, casually or jokingly chatted, along with others ? Doesn’t every limerent come over here to decompose their LE stresses, respectively, in whatever effective ways we could find and manage here?? If you think I have “used” you, then we all “used” each other here to dull or get away from our limerence pains. I even told you frankly several times that I came here to reduce my low-grade depression, boredom, grief, and occasionally get inspiration as well. I did not deceive or manipulate you to talk.
“Snowphoenix, perhaps the biggest reason I don’t like you as a person is you come across as entitled. “
Oh Dear, no need to explain anything! Feel completely free and at ease to dislike or hate me for whatever reasons you think fit! I actually feel Flattered that I got three personalized paragraphs of “rant” dashed at me in your confessional message to Limerent Emeritus.
“You act like you were/are entitled to my time, my energy, my attention. This is NOT the case. You are not entitled to anything from me.“
“Entitled”? Where on earth did you get that impression⁉️ You’re neither my LO, bf, date, or even a friend, why would I expect/demand your “time, energy, or attention or anything? It is NOT a dating site! How many times did we actually directly converse/chat since I came back from COO in July or even since April? Who are YOU anyway? LwL unofficial therapist/consoler/priest? Did you hear yourself: how arrogant and pompous you sound ⁉️
“I don’t know you. You are a stranger on the Internet. “
The thought is mutual! 🤝 It’s the same with everyone else here; we only know our LE related, selected “facts”, very limited anything else. Not telling is different from lying or faking, it’s people’s privacy! Just because you’re willing to lay your bleeding Self naked, you can’t force/compel others to do the same. At 41, you can’t look at the world like a Salinger’s Holden anymore.
“I know I said we were friends – I was lying. We are not friends. We will never be friends. We are distant acquaintances at best.”
I remember clearly I did not respond when you asked me whether “we are friends now”, my hesitation had its intuitive root, which is just proved to be true again! (🔇 LaR, just answered one of your questions, even w/o any realistic glances…).
Lying is okay, we all lie, at least situationally — white lies; even Aspies do, as you just acknowledged. Agreed! — “we are not friends and will never be friends.” Let’s go a bit further — not even be acquaintances anymore! You go your Plutonian ways, I walk my bratty paths….
“Your attempts to tease me or play-flirt with me weren’t cute. You came/come across as a brat. I just can’t respect a grown woman who acts like a brat. “
Do I need to “look” cute for you? Isn’t it sufficient if I feel cute just for myself? How do you definite self-confidence? Why do I need YOUR respect? Have you forgot that I’m a 50% Stoic? I “came/come across as a brat”, so what? If I misbehave or say intolerable, hurtful things, DrL would kick me out, it is NOT your site, Dear!
“I will tolerate iffy behaviour from individuals I feel comfortable with that I won’t tolerate from individuals I don’t feel comfortable with.”
You are free to do whatever to your own delight or wellbeing. If you by any chance think that you can arose 1 ounce jealousy in me at anything else or anyone else, you’d be wasting your energy until your next life! I sincerely wish you every bit of good luck to feel comfortable whenever chatting with whoever here or elsewhere!
Perhaps it’s more beneficial for you to retreat into your solitary, comfortable house/cave and complete your own version of “the Cather in the Rye” epic poem and become famous J.D. Slinger 2nd?
May peace BE with you! 📿
p.s. I wanted to post a similar message to you last October, but for various reasons, I held back… Now, you’ve just made it a ripen time.
Sammy Sams,
Umm … so I’m just going to comment on a few things in your post.
No, I don’t think all gay men hate women. At least some of the gay men I’ve known. Some of the gay men I’ve known love women; they just aren’t interested in them sexually.
Two, yes, I get a little persnickety sometimes. There were times I have apologized where I realized I was too harsh. The most recent situation: I’m not apologizing. I’m going to pull a Madonna from the video “Human Nature” and say, “Absolutely no regrets.” 🙂
Thirdly, I think you were harsh with Snowphoenix. You don’t have to like everybody, but if you don’t like them or their comments aren’t helping you, just don’t respond to their posts.
Fourthly, I don’t know if I’d call limerence immoral but it’s definitely morally dubious. Unless the LO and the limerent are both available. But if not … let’s be honest: No limerent is looking for just friendship. Even if things aren’t going to get physical, the limerent still wants a lot more than just friendship. It’s best for the limerent to back away when they have those kinds of feelings, whether partnered with an SO or single and limerent for a partnered LO. Limerents always try to find loopholes to keep the LO in their lives, but it’s not a good idea.
Who/what could be a better teacher, to a Stoicism and Buddhism apprentice, than a self-confessed misogynist, Plutonian, and hater of naturally “flawed” humanities and colorful human beings?
No worries for me, ladies and gentlemen here! I’ve been taught in hard ways how to speculate even a “prison” (like in “1984”) from “odd” but ultimately self-beneficial angles and to appreciate some rare opportunities.…
You (collective) can only understand my points of views if you grew up in my COO and lived in my shoe after coming to the West…
Using the title of that Italian movie/true story, “Life is Wonderful”, despite all its subjective and objective dark sides… ☺️
The memory mistake — the Italian movie (1997), “Life is Beautiful”.
Father was sent to a labor camp once for six months for having causally made a 6-word, political joke. After his death, I found a never-seen photo in which he (and his 3 colleagues) smiling in a swimming suit, looked just like a “skeleton” (with his ribs showing), right after coming out of a Nazi concentration camp. When asked why he forgave those who put him in the labor camp, he said, “they are just ignorant tools of the government and of that era.”
Sammy, this is interesting – do you have a source for this? Believe it or not, you only (well, not just “only” but you know what I mean) succeeded in reminding me about LO. 🙈 This was one of the topics the hunky intellectual was interested in. I promise I won’t go showing off to him with the article though!
@Trifles.
What would you like sourced?
I know about INFJs because I am one and spend a lot of time reading about myself on Reddit in the INFJ subreddit. Apparently, we’re the loveliest people on earth and the rarest people on earth and just so amazingly amazing and have I mentioned how amazing we are?
As you can see for yourself, we’re also modest to a fault. All we do online is sit around all day and pay each other sincere compliments! We also like to moan about how no one understands us. 🙂
The “moderate social democracy is better than radical utopianism” thesis is just an idea from some article I glanced at in an old magazine during my travels. I think the periodical might be called “The Economist”. I don’t know the date/year of the relevant issue.
I used to be really interested in all that stuff – geography, history, war, trade, world affairs, etc. Then limerence came along and gave me something else to think about. Might have to get back into world affairs – I always wanted to be either a prince or a diplomat. Sadly, my friends tell me, most “prince” jobs are already taken. 🙂
Sammy, sorry for being vague, I meant re: moderate democracy vs radical utopianism. I find it pretty interesting too – or at least LO got me interested in it. But I will probably soon retreat to the shallower waters I’m used to. 😉
But I was serious: the LE was at least educational! Sounds like limerence had the opposite effect on you, what a shame!
It’s also a shame if you don’t have any openings for prince positions in Australia! That would be great for foreign affairs (ahem..) – and who would be better for the job but Australia’s own Robert Redford! (Flattering you to make up for when you notice the other comments from LaR and me)
@Limerent Emeritus,
Have you ever read “The Catcher in the Rye” and know J.D. Salinger’s real life? There is a great documentary about him — https://link.tubi.tv/nbIZCO54bNb (free movie)
I taught the book in a HS here for a semester, it’s deeply saddening….
Snow,
I have never read it. It was on the summer reading list of books that you were supposed to read but I didn’t.
I know nothing of Salinger.
LE,
It’s one distinguished American novel, unlike any other British or European stories (very short), based on Salinger’s true life story. I learned a great deal of Americanness from the story and the document film.
I highly recommend.
Colleen M. O’Neill not only abandoned her husband for Salinger, she also abandoned the child they adopted. Both she and her husband were registered nurses. Her ex-husband had to chase her down for child support.
Her abandonment messed with her son’s head very badly and his life reflects it.
She’s not from NH as is sometimes reported, she’s from Maryland.
Salinger/Holden has messed up not only his own life, but many others life personally and through his only one “rebellion” book. A permanent “outsider” and a hater of life.
Holden is NO hero of any kind, IMO, but he started a whole trend of established-cultural rebellion ever since. I see him as one of peculiar product of American culture.
Interesting about Salinger and his son.
Where have I seen issues with abandonment by the mother before..? Oh, yeah, in the mirror.
Heinze Kohut has something to say about that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ6Y3hoKI8U#ddg-play
He has an interesting take on empathy at the 1:45 mark and his comments on the absence of the mother start at ~2:50.
Shari Schreiber says:
“It should be noted, that if a nourishing symbiosis with Mother isn’t possible during infancy, and a far more attentive/loving attachment is forged with the father, an emotionally sound adult might eventually emerge. But if the father should leave through divorce, death or remarriage, the abandonment trauma this invokes will significantly impact all future relationships. Anxiety surrounding potential loss of another who might have substantial meaning and value, can exacerbate personality disorder features and inhibit or destroy healthy, gratifying adult connections.” – https://sharischreiber.com/do-you-love-to-be-needed/
When LO #2 told me that her greatest fear was to grow old and die alone, my response was that there was nobody I couldn’t live without. I told LO #2 that everyone I every really cared about had left or was taken from me. Why attach to someone when they’ll only take off on you later? I don’t know that it destroyed any healthy, gratifying adult connections but it certainly inhibited them. I engineered fixed-duration relationships.
Schreiber and LO #4 knew each other. This describes my situation in detail. Schreiber also alludes to some other posts I made on LO #2’s site. I think Schreiber was reading my stuff. I posted under a different screen name on LO #4’s site/forum.
I’ll have to read Salinger.
” Schreiber also alludes to some other posts I made on LO #4’s site.”
Need more coffee…
@Limerent Emeritus:
No, Salinger apparently got along well enough with his son (Matthew).
Colleen Marie O’Neill Zakrzeski abandoned the son she adopted with her first husband. Who struggles to this day. Adoption is an abruption and many adoptees have discussed their challenges. He was given up by his birth mother and then his adoptive mother ran away. That leaves scars.
Salinger’s daughter wrote about her life with her father (surprise! It wasn’t all that wonderful as his DAUGHTER) and the literary world still hasn’t forgiven her for it. As though she’s not entitled to laying out her experiences with her father because he was a famous, lauded author.
Ditto for Joyce Maynard. Even after the #MeToo movement she’s viewed as a predator rather than Salinger with his creepy history with very young women and teenage girls.
Gross.
If you haven’t read his works by now, there’s really no reason to do so now.
Every coin has two sides; in order to appreciate one side truly, one needs to know about the flip side thoroughly. To appreciate beauty of a culture or a matter (LE) one needs to know ugliness of it and understand and avoid their profound causes.
I did not choose to teach “the Cather in the Rye” but later understand why it was chosen as a part of HS curriculum. In COO, we call it “Negative Example”; I consider it as one of modern American “Tragic Material”.
Pure naivety or extremism of any kind could only lead one to his or her own tragedy, any possibly drag others along if the latter are “blind” followers.
There is idiom from ancient COO: to win a war, you need to know your enemy!
In life in general, the biggest enemy is Ignorance that has led to countless tragedies!
There is proverb here: “The road to hell is paved with good intentions.” Or “ Most of the Evil in This World Is Done by People with Good Intentions”. — T.S Eliot
Thanks for the clarification, Lee.
I’ll skip Salinger.
I wasn’t looking forward to reading Salinger. I finally got around to reading “Lord of the Flies” about 2 years ago. I wasn’t all that impressed.
A lot of the stuff I had to read because they were considered seminal works didn’t impress me. On the other hand, works by Huxley and Orwell did.
Tangent: I really liked the police books by Joseph Wambaugh. One of LO #2’s nurse buddy’s BF was a cop. We double dated a few times. I told him what I knew about cops came from watching crime shows, hanging out with my college campus PD buddies, and reading Wambaugh’s books. He said Wambaugh wasn’t all that far out there. He became the spokesperson for the local cable show on TV. Later, the guy was arrested and imprisoned for child molestation and kiddie porn.
You can’t make this stuff up.
@Limerent Emeritus – If you or your local library subscribes to The Washington Post, there was recently a series of articles on police who molest and rape minors and face few, if any, legal or professional consequences.
@LE,
I was trying to say if you know Holden’s story and his character, you would not have said, “ Wow,… I didn’t see that coming.”
It is understandable….
☺️
@Limerent Emeritus – The real life incident that happened later debunks the dark vision of the author (who was also awful to his [brilliant] wife) and had some younger woman on a string. Apparently her husband was no prize.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/may/09/the-real-lord-of-the-flies-what-happened-when-six-boys-were-shipwrecked-for-15-months
Spoiler alert – it had a happy ending.
We discussed it on LWL years ago. I think you were part of the conversation at the time.
Found it!
https://livingwithlimerence.com/playing-with-fire/
“Good to know. I thought you looked familiar. Say hello to Morticia and Uncle Fester for me. Party animal! 🙂”
Are you calling me Wednesday? I’m good with that! 🙂
I agree with MJ. Marcia for the Golden Limerent. I have other nominations …
Miss Lovisa for Den Mother Limerent
MJ for He Ain’t Heavy He’s My Brother Limerent
LE for Wise Man Limerent
Sammy for Best Comedic Limerent
Limmy for Sweetest Limerent
frederico for Kindest Limerent
Snowphoniex for Other Worldly Limerent
Limerent Nurse for Most Spiritually Uplifting Limerent
Bewitched for Most Always There When You Need Her Limerent
Mila for Wow The Truth Hurts Limerent
ghostzoned for Best New Limerent to LwL
And for anyone I forgot I’ll buy you a drink. Except tequila. I will not be an advocate for the drinking of that awful stuff. And if you don’t drink we can have OJ minus the gin.
Ya’ll can accept your awards if you let me DJ so I can find an acceptance speech song for each of you. MJ’s is already in the bag. I’ll have to think of one for the rest of you.
But I know the closing song of the evening …. as I think, at least every committed limerent, can relate … I know I can ….
You Were Always On My Mind — Willie Nelson
https://youtu.be/KQAsbAoEias?si=1spYcW3gtBQgvUku
Wow-the-truth-hurts-limerent sounds fine by me Adam, I was at that point several times and feel that it hurts but helps… but sorry to everyone if I come across a bit too blunt/harsh sometimes. I’m actually not like that in real life, only if it’s really necessary, which isn’t that often. Jobwise being in a leading position I’ve been told I’m too “soft”, but contradicting that, everyone likes me and does as I tell them to, so I think I’m actually doing the right thing, being “soft”.
But here on LwL I have to hit myself over the head with the truth all the time to wake up, so maybe I extend it to others a bit too much…
You can be DJ Adam, but I want to see that breakdance number in parachute pants. No backing down here.
I meant that very much as a compliment Mila. There are many times I have needed to hear the truth and not the “truth”. And you, and other posters as well, have always been there to dispense it. Just yesterday I had to take a step back and really listen to something ghostzoned responded to me with about LO. But upon consideration of what he said, I realized he was right, and I just didn’t like it initially because it cut down LO to more human than my still lingering idealizations. Posters like you and others are good for us limerents still in limbo. So thank you for being you Mila.
Thanks Adam!
It was the barista comment, no? I mean, while I also think I’m LO’s personal Instagram and his validation-provider (seriously. he loves it when I praise him and yesterday made a few feeble attempts to get some of that validation out of me, that I dodged politely) and that’s a big part why he likes me or even was limerent, don’t we all get something from others, and I’m sure you got something out of your LO too. Also, to be blunt again, she didn’t make you her barista, you chose so yourself. I’m also sure there were other sides of you she appreciated.
And who doesn’t love a good barista;)
No, I get you. I just think being blunt at the wrong time doesn’t help at all, and I apologize if that was the case.
Great nominations. I’d also want to put forward:
-Speedwagon – for staying power, discipline and passing on wisdom to others (it is him, Lovisa’s and MJ’s help in combination when I first posted that stopped me from the own goal of disclosure).
-Trifles – for the blend of humour with occasional blunt reality checks (though she still can’t beat Marcia on those)
-Nisor – for something to do with compassion (my time here doesn’t overlap with Nisor’s much, so I can’t be more definite, but I have definitely seen it in the history of LwL)
Quite a limerent list.
LaR thanks for the nod, I’m clearly not worthy. And yikes, don’t pit me against Marcia in any category – I know when I’m beat! Sammy’s already distressed about me being nominated CEO of a mustache removal cream company – and he doesn’t even believe in the existence of said companies!
I don’t want to upset any more of the hall-of-famers!
And I shall nominate Lim-a-rant for Most Likely to Succeed (in the near-impossible feat he is attempting)
Trifles, Ha! Thanks for vote of confidence. It can feel and sound impossible but I now have a solid couple of months’ movement in the right direction behind me, at last, so maybe it isn’t after all. I feel it is the right path. Interesting to see other people here saying they end up devaluing their LO as a friend in the end, even if they don’t set out to.
The mustache stuff has some ‘history’ behind it. Stay away from associations with that removal cream and stick to the cream on your trifles 😅
Things still on an even keel with your transferee?
@Trifles.
Are you saying you ARE interested in acquiring some moustache-removal cream? Because I can sell you some at grossly-inflated blackmarket prices if you really feel this is the right product for you and your female friends on the cusp of a very challenging period in life. Would you like to be Head of European distribution? 🙂
First, we’ll take Europe. Then, we’ll take on the world! 🙂
Sammy, not acquiring the products, acquiring the business! I will try to avoid the takeover becoming hostile, despite the controversy surrounding this business here on LwL. Luckily I’m blonde enough not to need the cream myself.
And I’m also starting to see the cost benefits of moving onto mustache removal 2.0: online filters. 🤔 So perhaps I will let you keep the “traditional business” after all…
@Trifles.
“Sammy, not acquiring the products, acquiring the business! I will try to avoid the takeover becoming hostile, despite the controversy surrounding this business here on LwL.”
I see you are a woman of wit. I like that. I see you are a woman with a good business head. I like that even more. With you at the helm, the business will be sure to flourish like an orchard of water-hungry avocado trees planted in the desert! 🙂
“Luckily I’m blonde enough not to need the cream myself.”
Does your hairdresser always lie to you? 😜
“And I’m also starting to see the cost benefits of moving onto mustache removal 2.0: online filters. 🤔”
It is never a mistake to look to the future. 😜
“So perhaps I will let you keep the “traditional business” after all…”
Oh, the shade … the shade! 🙂
By the way, any chance I can interest you in my new range of gender-neutral, jellybean-flavoured purple lipstick? It’s best refrigerated for three years before use. Bozo the Clown once wore the exact same hue! It also offers protection against extinct giant flying ants! 😁
@Trifles,
Bravo, bravo! 👏 👏👏
🤐😂😂😂🤐
@Trifles,
“ Giant extinct” ants usually leave well-trodden European placements alone, but like to scan rural, dirt roads of the Pacific islands for more earthen, fresher food….
A sight of those “flying ants” will take away breath of you civilized Europeans… 😘
Shaky trains always trigger my phone’s stupid auto correction, it was supposed to be “pavements”.
My phone does not have the emoji of the magnificent, breathtaking 🐦🔥, how disappointing… but I’m sentimentally in LE with my iPhone 7 Plus. C’est la vie!
“With you at the helm, the business will be sure to flourish like an orchard of water-hungry avocado trees planted in the desert! 🙂”
Sammy, ohh, don’t start with those agriculture references, you’ll be sure to catch me at my incompetence quicker than LO did!
“Does your hairdresser always lie to you? 😜”
I like my hairdressers like my men: slightly nearsighted and generous with the flattery. (Wait… That doesn’t sound quite right for someone working with scissors! 😯)
As for the extinct-ant-repelling-lipstick – as useful as it sounds, Lim-a-rant may be right and I should stick to products in the “cream” category.
Trifles,
I am really not sure about this cream!
First because it has a somewhat colourful LWL history.
Second – is there REALLY a cream that can remove moustaches? I have never known one. A good old fashioned razor has a lot to be said for it.
I like your enthusiasm for this business startup. I an keen not to see it fall at the first hurdle. We need something more widely marketable to the LwL community. A super strength repellent magnet to push those pesky MBTI opposites away??
LaR, hmm… I’m never exactly at an even keel. Re: transferee, I warned him I would get dependent on the constant communication – and I was right. (I’m not happy to be right, even if I were an INTP!). I notice this whenever he’s busy and doesn’t have as much time for me. I suppose I need him for mood regulation – and that’s not a long term solution! I also think I still need some excitement/distraction in my life, but he is not the place to get it. I may have to engage more here with you lot to keep myself textually simulated.
If textual stimulation = discussing agriculture or hair removal cream with Sammy and me, well hey, it would be rude and ungentlemanly not to try and help!
More seriously, this place has proved a good ‘out’ for me sometimes when I have those “must not text, must not text, but here is my hand seemingly acting of its own accord hovering above the send button” moments!
LaR – thank (chosen deity) for gentlemen! But lol, poor Sammy will feel so used! I think he has said that he reeeaaally prefers not to get attention from limerent women – and this would likely fall under that category.
Trifles, oh don’t worry, I think Sammy is riding the crest of a wave over his lifetime achievement nomination.
He seems to be skipping happily enough around this place at the moment, so I am sure he will forgive you for being female if you can break the European market with this fabled cream he talks of.
Besides, it gives him a break from the mental gymnastics I’ve been asking him to do about Myers Briggs.
@Adam,
What does “other worldly” means? From other side of the world, or other type of worldly (not spiritual) limerence?
Spiritual, ghostly.
I see, I’m a 👻 limerent! I’ll take it… 🐦🔥
Snow, He can tell you himself, but I suspect it is a nod of thanks for the very alternative perspectives you bring to us Westerners – that and/or your spiritual side.
^What he said. I appreciate your distinctly different perspective on things even if I can’t always grasp them, they at least always make me think. I don’t think even with the internet that Westerns really try to immerse themselves into the rest of the world’s cultures deeper than just surface current events.
@Adam,
Thank you for your compliment! Are my sure it’s my words making your head spin? 🤔
@LaR,
If you “read” my naked 👀 in person, I’m not sure whether you’d suspect or think about anything… you may not recognize anymore who are Westerners or Easterners … 😜
Oops, what a mistake: “Are YOU sure…”.
You see you can’t be 😵💫 by my drunken words, Adam!
I was pulling your leg…😄
Snowphoenix
There’s no one on this forum I’d like to have drinks with. What is inebriated Snowphoenix like? I’d like to know. And also try some Eastern drinks too. I like saki and soju. But haven’t had much other exposure.
Correction: There is no one on this forum I’d like to have drinks with more than you.
Adam,
I can’t wait for you to pull out a tall seat for me at a bar…
Well, just the sight and smell of an Eastern drink🍹, made of rice (55-95% alcohol) with a scent of plume, and held in a 🐧’s beak 😵💫 , might knock you out before you even take a sip …
Are you sure you wanna try? ❓❓
Mood
William Saphier
The end of my wish
Walks near me smiling;
With subtle fingers I loosen
Little shining, sharp chips
From the crystal body
With its many enticing shadows.
A fine silk thread
Is desire,
These sweet but sharp edges
Its end.
Shall I add one more flaw
To my dream veil.
*****
😴 💤
Snowphoenix
Well what kind of representative of men of the Western world would I be if I didn’t pull out your chair for you? Not a good one.
I can hold my own, no worries. I’ve had moonshine before. Didn’t necessarily like it, but I held it down. No worries. If I ever made it to your side of the world if we went out for drinks Momma will make sure I make it back safe. And you too, if you needed a lift.
“Are YOU sure it’s my words making your head spin?”
Well I haven’t come across a woman’s foreign accent that I didn’t like. While posh British is still my favorite I am still quite fond of many others. And in my head I am not sure what your’s sounds like. But I am sure I’d love to hear it someday.
“These sweet but sharp edges
Its end.”
Sounds like the beginning and end of limerence.
@Adam,
The authentic Moonshine” from the East will make you feel warm and a bit of woozy inside without burning sensations. But you need to hold it down fast; if attempt a cheat in Men’s room, another bar hopper would surely pay for me thus you’d lose the privilege to honor a “giant, extinct” 🔥 🐧.🔥
Since I can’t drive due to the irreversible impact of cptsd, I’d so appreciate a lift. However, you need to borrow DrL’s Tardis to fly me to my “Amazingly amazing” “giant, “extinct” nest hidden in the Eastern sky. Please tell Momma, you’ll surely get back home safe and sound with DrL’s ship!
Yes, the limerence seems to be ending even with my fiery resistente.🧐 It’s a kind of “loss” …
Btw, which ghost has red hair here, you or LE?
@Adam,
There is a bit of chipping sound in my accent, I hope it won’t be too foreign not to scare Westerners away… 😳
@Adam,
Even though they are probably lingering somewhere now in the lurking world, we also need to acknowledge,
CallMeCordelia, for most helpful limerent..
C for Cat, for Best Friend limerent..
These fine ladies were very instrumental for me here, when I was probably at my absolute worst..
And Imho, Lost in Space and Rainbowbrite, please.
Totally agree MJ I can’t believe I forgot about them. I guess it has been awhile since they last posted.
@Adam,
I’m nominating you for Best Lwl Companion and poster of the year.
You should nominate me for, Most Delusional limerent..
😂😂
🏆 Thanks, Adam! 🙏
@Adam.
“frederico for Kindest Limerent”
Seconded. 🙂
Ive been honestly hoping to bait him with flattery to get him to post again. I can understand his reasons for leaving but I miss him. He understood my limerence more than anyone. And I hope he knows that. He’s a one of a kind gentleman.
@Adam.
“Ive been honestly hoping to bait him with flattery to get him to post again. I can understand his reasons for leaving but I miss him. He understood my limerence more than anyone. And I hope he knows that. He’s a one of a kind gentleman.”
I’m sure Frederico left because he felt it was the right thing to do for himself from a mental health point of view. (Talking about limerence may have been inadvertently reinforcing his limerence in an unhelpful way).
I know you miss him. I’m sure he misses you too. 🙂
I also would nominate frederico gentleman limerent of the year.
And I just hope he‘s fine and healthy and got rid of this whole limerence business, taking trips to the sea, buying flowers and going on his daily walks☝🏻
I hope that you are both are right and that he is doing well in his recovery. And wishing him the best. I am very terrible at goodbyes. It’s hard to let go.
I hope that life is treating you well my friend. Know that you will always be in my memory. And I am glad to have met you my friend despite the circumstances that brought us together.
As the Self-appointed Curator of the LwL Limerence Hall of Fame and sole arbiter for admission, I’d like to honor some of your predcessors:
Lee
lowendj
Sophie
Thinker
My Limerent Brain is an Idiot (MLBI)
Fred
These former posters stand out to me as having a big impact in the early days of LwL. The stories of their respective LEs highlighted the many facets of limerence and the consequences associated with them.
I’ve tried several times over the last ~6 weeks since learning about limerence to succinctly write down my experience in order to make more sense of it, but keep failing (lol, my hunch is that those of us who are prone to rumination and introspection have a hard time keeping any of our writing/journalling short and sweet…) — hahaha now I’m reading this preface after writing out my comment in full, and want to apologize for the essay:
Anyway, after going through an intense but thankfully short-lived (what I now know to be) LE for a good chunk of August thanks to him getting back in contact with me and me actually engaging him in a meaningful way for the first time in YEARS (up until then, I had kept it very surface-level anytime he periodically reached out), I feel like in the last few weeks I’ve relinquished control of my brain and it feels SO. SO. GOOD. We were even on a conference call together a few hours ago, and I wasn’t even bothered — mostly! (It might have been a different story if I had to be on camera or speak, but…)
There is a possibility he will be in my city (he lives across the country) for an in-person conference in a few months. More and more, I feel like I can trust myself again. And in fact, it would be so much better if he doesn’t end up coming (I would not have said this a month ago — I would have fantasized about him attending, and somehow being able to maintain the tightrope act of acknowledged mutual attraction but no boundaries being crossed, all the while being my most sparkly, witty, vibrant, unbothered self… what an outlandish fantasy, lol)*. If he doesn’t, we will be seeing each other in person next May, for the first time since 2019. As tough as it has been to really confront this situation head-on (shame, denial, and going as low-contact as possible seemingly took care of it way back when, but now I know it was just lying dormant) I am so grateful to now have this new framework, understanding and context for what this was/is. Limerence. Wow. Knowledge is power, that’s for sure.
Background: (who I now know to be) my LO is a long-distance colleague, and we had an emotional affair lasting several months that, to my enormous shame, was very briefly physical. It began more than seven years ago, and even though the LE went WAY down in intensity over the last 4-5 years, during which time I did a lot of inner work and became a mother, which has brought me deeper joy and purpose than I could have ever imagined — to the point where I really considered myself ‘over it’ — there has been a lot of internal hand-wringing: “why the F do I still think about this person? It’s been seven years! What is wrong with me?” I’ve had various fleeting crushes over the course of my LTR with my incredible partner, but I have never acted on them, and poof — they’ve always gone away on their own. When people have flirted with me, I have always been one to awkwardly shut it down, never reciprocate. (Or obliviously reciprocate, and then awkwardly shut it down once I realized what I was doing.) And so, for years and years I have NEVER been able to make sense of what it was about my LO that caused me to abandon myself and act so selfishly and destructively. Once again: limerence. Textbook. Wow.
When we spoke last month, a door seemed to open and for really the first time, we kind of… hashed things out and actually spoke about what it was over the course of several conversations, some of them over the phone. For years I’d operated under the pretense that this had been essentially empty on his side, that he just liked the chase. Due to the nature of it, I had never been able to admit to myself that there might have been genuine feelings on both sides. Truly, I think my brain just didn’t allow me to confront that possibility due to the shame I had around it. But to my surprise, he talked about feelings, about caring about me, how “connections like this just don’t go away,” how flustered he will be when he sees me again, about thinking about me, about his confusion and hurt at me going cold and how he thought I hated him, and so on. I can also see now how my own behaviour (constantly pulling away, never initiating) reinforced our dynamic and how it kept him dangling, so to speak. It had never occurred to me that this might be mutual beyond just attraction, whether or not his experience has been full-blown limerence for him. (A part of me wants to call myself delusional for even entertaining that notion, but in a way I can see it, and it has cast some of his actions and behaviour over the years in a much different light than before.)
It’s been about a month since we’ve been in contact, after I shut it down. I have struggled whether or not to take him at face value. There are reasons why he might be, there are reasons why he might not be. However, what I’ve landed on is that even if he’s genuine, just a lonely heart seeking connection with a sort-of kindred spirit, it doesn’t matter! (And in fact, I said that to him! “We want each other because we’ll never have each other. Your feelings or my feelings — they don’t actually matter, because we have people that we actually love, and they’re who matter.” “If you don’t think that people in happy marriages do this…” “I know. But I want to be different.”)
The sense I got from our conversations is that he is deeply committed to finding ways to rationalize cheating on his wife, hurting his family, and denying ownership of his choices and actions, and I have no doubt that there have been several such “connections” since he and I met — unfortunately, the nature of our jobs and the travel they involve enables these opportunities for those who want them. But I am committed to understanding myself and living with purpose and integrity because there is nothing more important to me than my child and my spouse, my beautiful family and the beautiful life we have created together. So. Gotta stay vigilant. I know I will be tested, and I know when we do see each other next, the chemicals in my brain will be going absolutely batshit haywire. But I know I never, ever want to go through that again — and risk hurting so many innocent people so deeply for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
Truthfully, the people-pleaser in me actually enjoyed the tenderness I felt towards him again, after so many years of hardening myself to him. But I know it’s so much more beneficial for me to kick him off any sort of pedestal and keep him there. We can’t actually be real friends. On the flip side, of course it feels good to be pursued and wanted like that, and of course I wish that fine line could be endlessly walked and no one would be harmed. But I know that’s a fantasy.
Everything I’ve read on this site — the glimmer, the tipping points, the rationalizing techniques/delusion of it all, the “I’m totally over this, let’s go for coffee!”… everything has resonated so very deeply. For better or for worse, I have felt very seen reading this website and everyone’s comments. And I have to say, finding the “Closure is a Myth” post came at a PERFECT time and I had to reread it several times that day in slack-jawed recognition of every single word lol. I’ve read so many things that I somehow intuitively knew, and have utilized over the years in my attempts to move on, but it is incredibly validating and eye-opening to see so many of these deeply personal, inner experiences reflected back at me in black and white. (Funnily enough, in our second phone conversation — just before I found this site — when I was telling him we couldn’t keep talking but that I was glad we’d had the opportunity to break the ice and ‘debrief’ so to speak, I actually said to him “At least now I know that you’re not some existential threat to my life, or like, the boogeyman…” Oh, but he IS!)
*I think it’s funny that the majority of my daydreams/fantasies involving him are not sexual or romantic in nature, but instead involve me being cool, admired, and self-assured in any situation. Lol. What might that say…
Wow.. seven years.
I’m at about 7 months in limerence (half of that in NC).
What helps me most, is focusing on my ‘bird in the hand’, my SO.
If there’s one thing I learnt from a handful of dysfunctional past LTR’s, it’s that love isn’t equally balanced.
One party always loves more than the other, and thus holds the balance of power in the relationship.
We who are on the receiving end get the benefit of someone who will travel with us to the ends of the earth.
We get loyalty, they get the person of their dreams.
In return, it’s our responsibility to be, well, a responsible partner.
When limerence hits us, the roles are reversed – with some new, sparkly persona.
But it’s not humanly possible for this object of our desires to ever live up to the hype in reality.
We already have someone else’s heart in our trust.
We know how precarious such a situation can be. To give our heart to someone else, is putting two or more hearts into their hands.
One party always loves more than the other, and thus holds the balance of power in the relationship.
(what I meant is that the person on the receiving end of the love scale, ie us married limerents, hold the balance of power in our marriage.
We are responsible.
When we fall into limerence, that’s flipped, and now our LO has all the power, but no responsibility)
@Sammy – I couldn’t help but ponder your words, I’m kind of taken aback by your perspective.
Could you explain what you mean when you say you think limerence is inherently immoral? In what way?
I don’t know what Sammy’s take is.
My own perspective is that what we limerents crave the most (in the depths of LE that is)
is mutual limerence.
Which is to say, I wish that my LO is as limerent for me, as I am for her!
Now how evil and selfish is that! 😈
The wish to be reciprocated either in crush, love, or limerence is neither evil nor selfish, just natural human desire. What does one DO wish such a wish would be another matter.
Correction: “with such a wish…”
ghostzoned.
It’s not selfish. It’s just the reality of limerence.
I don’t understand Sammy’s ‘all limerence is immoral’ either. *Acting* on it would be immoral if – like you and I – we have an SO. But the thoughts – we don’t ask for them and we can’t control them. How can that be immoral?
Sorry to intrude you three’s conversation.
Your shared puzzlement might be eased a little bit if one can imagine and understand “fixed” impact of strict/strong religious/ideological education on children/teens who happen to be on autistic spectrum. I worked with Asperger kids/teens in the past, which was heartbreaking…
Without that experience, you can bid “the thunder of an Eastern Amazon Warrior” would have sounded even louder…
Maybe it’s the mid-life screaming in my face, but I see both sides of Sammy and Snowpheonix. Religion certainly plays a huge part in my agreement with Sammy in the immoral aspect of limerence. It set in me thoughts of another woman that a married man shouldn’t have. As the Bible says adultery starts in the heart not the bed.
On the other side I can see where Snowpheonix is coming from in that it changes you as a person. For the worse or the better. This whole experience has changed my outlook on myself and my future. It’s made me ponder a whole lot of “what ifs”. And despite the limerence I found a friendship in two people, her and her daughter that I will always remember. Something that is quite precious to me.
It has also challenged me to be more present in my marriage. To cling to my wife like the lifesaver that she is. I know my path in life before I met her would have sent to the the ditch, jail or the grave due to my drinking. She, and our boys by extension, have saved me from myself. I literally owe them my life.
Again that could be the mid-life barnacles stuck on the shell that I try to hide in that is sapping me of previous me. It could also be my insistence to go back to church despite my hesitance to embrace religion again.
Can I just skip right to old man on the front porch yelling at the kids to get off my lawn? Oh yeah with my PBR. Can’t forget that.
@Adam,
Thank you for the comment. I’m glad that you’ve gained positive experiences from your LE — pure friendship with the mother and daughter. I have gained more solid relationship with my Self with a Phantom singing in my head.
There is a much larger world out of biblical kingdom. While not abandoning your old world, try to “come out” to take fresher air from time and time, and some unexpected “wonders” are out there for you to explore and enjoy…. Then there would be no grumpy men yelling at any front porch…
Agape 🤝
Adam, Snow,
Thanks for these thoughts. Still having to work hard to get Sammy’s ‘limerence always immoral’ argument.
Whether ‘guilt’ is the most helpful word (Snow might well say not), I think married or partnered limerents should reflect on the circumstances that led them into their LE. Eg (rhetorical questions for myself): What can I learn for the future about how things were with SO in the runup to the LE? What was I bringing to the party and how and why could I be different with her in the future?
The limerent *feelings* can’t, in my book, be a reason for guilt. This is back to the often discussed point of ‘thoughtcrime’. That alone is not a reason for guilt.
What we *do* in the LE (how we act it out) could, though, draw out some moral wrongs (by Western married standards at least) and that might lead to guilt depending how we *acted* – but it is not true for every LE (and yes, I do have guilt about some of this part, so am not copping out – but in other ways I am pleased with how I have acted).
Any guilt needs to be directed or transformed into ‘what can I learn from it to act more authentically and purposefully in future?’, not endless berating of ourselves for the past, if we can.
Idealisation of the LO or focusing on their role (often ‘no role’) in the LE is a distraction that just stops us engaging with these critical thought processes.
I got the idea Sammy was saying that even *feeling* limerent (even if single) was reason for guilt. I didn’t get that and still don’t. Maybe it is because I haven’t really got strong religious beliefs or read biblical texts.
I’m neurodivergent and can relate. In the years since childhood I’ve been rethinking everything that was drummed into my head regarding religion, and purity culture, and even monogamy. If I could do it over, I’d ask for some form of open marriage or polyamory. But back then, those were no-no’s….Well, still are in most churches.
I think one has to see Sammy‘s post as a whole, not pick sentences out of it. He seems to have been in a certain mood. This stood out for me:
„ and I’m quick to anger. Where there is no anger, there’s also no love. Anger is testament to the fact that I … used to love someone. I’m a paradox: I am both kind and intolerant.“
I hope he‘s ok though.
*not „though“. Don’t know why I wrote „though“
@Serial,
I hope the rethinking of it you’ve done over the years has helped you come to more peace about the difference between thought and action etc.
I admire people who have made poly work for them, but it is too much of a leap for me. There are things I really like about making a commitment to just one person, and confirming to them that they are your ‘special person’. My SO is that to me and I don’t doubt in it. That’s why as much as I can say here that I/we shouldn’t feel guilt for limerent thoughts, sometimes in reality I still do.
Poly setups are quite mysterious for me and I am not qualified to talk on them – but I think it’s important that everyone involved understands it the same from the start, and there might also need to be frequent renegotiation. I discussed this with Snow once but I don’t think they can work as an excuse to ‘bring someone else in’, ie as accommodation for limerence.
@Mila
I do agree with your point that it is wrong to pick out sentences in isolation from that message.
Adam, LaR,
If you grew up in my extremely controlling, dictating COO, you’d understand where some puzzling, extreme “inhuman” thoughts/concepts come from, they were not stranger to me personally….
Nagging again from me: thoughts and emotions alone, even expressed safely (like in LwL), are Guilty FREE. Just need to ponder over possible consequences if you want to act on them…
Your SO became your SO for reasons, please try your mighty, chivalry power to appreciate their special value to YOU and express your gratitude in their personally preferred way, ie. validate what they seem to need/want. Think about times when you felt down or “fell”, who were there sitting next to you holding your hands and help change your bandit, SO or LO?
If you don’t have enough bread of validation yourself, borrow some elsewhere (LwL) and give more to your SO first. When SO is fed enough what they needed, they’ll in return nurture your needs/wants. It’s a productive, upwards spiral cycle, but takes a lot of hard work. I wish so much I could have appreciated my xSO more. Despite that four cheats during the engagement, he sincerely tried his best afterwards without my knowing what mental disability he had….
Life is always unpredictable, people change and feelings come and go, out of somewhere or nowhere… Really cherish and savor what you’ve already have, even after unexpected, seemingly “uncontrollable” (LE) struck you and challenge you, and make it grow stronger!
🤝🤝
Correction — last sentence, “make your precious connection with your SO grow stronger!”
Don’t take anything for granted, you two grumpy, whinny “old” men! 💥
@Serial Limerent,
I have another chance, and would negotiate an open-door nest arrangement. Even with my limerence tendency, I know I’ll always fly back under a familiar, cozy, safe roof, free from thunder storms and chilly air… My colleague has several wooden nests in her backyard, and couples fly in and out year after year… then another couple or group…
Hope you’re doing well in your church activities… how are you managing the co-existence with LO’s SO?
@Snow: There was a change in plans last minute, so I didn’t have to work with LO’s SO. The event isn’t done yet, though.
I think I know what your COO is, and it’s a shame what the government has done to the people. The culture there was so advanced, with inventions, poetry, etc.
@Snow
Define “old”! 🤣
@LaR,
You sound like an “old” ghost/soul in LwL; in my COO, being “old” is a honor connected to experience and wisdom, do you have beard yet? (Please never mustache!) 🤣
@SL,
If I were you, I’d try to avoid meeting LO’s SO at all costs, particular if you haven’t come out of your LE… I think we neurodivergent may helplessly reveal what we don’t want to show to the world and can inadvertently cause misunderstandings and hurt in LO or his life.
By now, I think most “ghosts” here have guessed where my COO is; I cannot tell enough, even through two books, what and how much evil things they’ve done to people collectively and individually. The worse part is that many ignorant, oppressed, obedient “sheep” over there are oblivious what the system is doing to them, unless they can compare different systems after coming out of the shinny “prison”.
I’m lucky to live in freer world now, but still get very angry if some ideology/religion idealists or fanatics try to stop/oppress/mock/attack different voices (even if I disagree with some contents of those voices).
Many thanks to DrL for letting all voices, including rants, heard in his democratic site, while forbidding/removing personally abusive/attacking posts. LwL could be very therapeutic and healing if one has thick skin; if not, it can help one grow thicker cheeks…
@Snow,
Summary – I’m 40s, no beard and (you’ll be glad to know) no mustache (I find it irritates my ‘youthful’ skin too much). Flattered you have the impression of me as a wizened older guy but I think it is L.E. you are looking for there!! I’m maybe wise on some things, definitely daft as a brush on more others, better at sounding wise than acting it 😅 I have learned unbelievable amounts of wisdom here at LwL and that’s a definite positive to come from limerence – I’m slightly older, and a bit more wiser now! Thanks for what you said about SOs earlier by the way – a nice timely reminder.
@Snow The trouble is, I can’t control what they do/say. LO hasn’t introduced us, though, and she doesn’t speak to me, so I do my best to avoid her–but I don’t want to be obvious about it, because that would get her suspicious!
@LaR,
LE sounds like having short hair cut with short prickly hair around his lips (with red hair if I remember correctly) — a tough-love grandpa. I already knew you did not have any facial hair (just had to have my zero-second “glance” checked out!). But I sensed you’re in your late 30s, not in blonde hair (❓)
When I first saw your posts after COO trip, I had go back to check whether you could possibly be my xLO peeking here, until I read about your LO and saw your non-American English spelling… thus, you’re “old”. (Martian like xLO is in his 50s looking in 30s).
Glad that LwL is making you “older” 🧔♂️
@SL,
Ask your LO not to introduce his SO to you, for the sake of his and your peace of mine. I could not help feel, we (you and I) would not be able to hide our true feelings. Everyone in my old work saw I was having feelings for xLO, and I could see in their eyes what they sensed or wondered…
@Snow
Yeah, after I obviously had been leaking like a sieve to LO, when I accidentally caught the eye of his LO one day, I feared I revealed too much to her, too!
Snow,
“But I sensed you’re in your late 30s, not in blonde hair (❓)”
Late 30s is too kind of you, but I might occasionally get away with that IRL too. Not blonde hair – you’re correct.
It is striking how nearly all the posters who talk regularly here are in their 40s or early 50s. This must be telling us a big ‘something’ about limerence – or at least when people are troubled by limerence and ready to reflect on it.
“When I first saw your posts after COO trip, I had go back to check whether you could possibly be my xLO peeking here, until I read about your LO and saw your non-American English spelling”
I understand why you think your xLO might look here, as you said that when you disclosed, he got very interested in limerence as a scientific phenomenon. I am glad you now feel reassured I am not him! If you found my opening posts from about April / May, you’d have seen I first arrived verbally with a cry for help of (paraphrasing myself) “help, I feel I am about to disclose, somebody please help to stop me”. You would probably have eliminated me as xLO very quickly if you saw that!
The worry of being ‘discovered’ on LwL by my LO or SO is real (but probably vain and I don’t need to have it). I have double-checked several posters over time to eliminate that. My theory is that while a few of us ‘ghosts’ talk, there are many many more ‘silent’ ghosts who lurk in the background and prefer just to read and absorb. I was one of those silent ghosts for 5-6 months (you?); I have read others say they were silent for years before speaking.
I said to you once that I didn’t want to give too much revealing information all at once (when you asked my country). You are a shrewd thinker and I am sure I have now given enough, in enough places, that if you have worked or guessed the answer, it’ll be correct. Also if you have speculations about my line of work then I think they’ll be correct. This is more my intuitive 👁 talking than anything you’ve said. I still don’t want to ‘confirm’ all that, but I think you have good powers of deduction.
Like you said to someone else (Bewitched maybe), these details don’t really ‘matter’ for the reason we’re here – to make sense of our LEs. But it is interesting that we still create these mental pictures / maps of the other posters – I do the same.
I’d also like to put my thoughts in on your questions about releasing tears, but I want to let the person you asked reply first, so I’ll come back to it sometime.
@SL,
Your fear is very understandable, since your LE is mutual and you two almost crossed the line, which I believe, would add some peculiar/“guilty” look in your eyes❓ That’s enough to make one’s subconscious shake a bit in front of LO’s SO.
Oh Boy! I don’t know what I would do in your shoe, it would be a torture to me. The only thing I can see is to “remove” LE feelings for your LO? But how? Can you switch a church?
No, the only way to switch churches is to completely change denominations. The closest other church is too far away for me to get to every week. It’s also my community now.
LaR,
“It is striking how nearly all the posters who talk regularly here are in their 40s or early 50s. This must be telling us a big ‘something’ about limerence – or at least when people are troubled by limerence and ready to reflect on it.“
Your observation seems to be very true. The term “limerence” is still largely unknown to general public. Most people especially in their 20s or 30s or older singles would just consider it as a huge crush.
“If you found my opening posts from about April / May, you’d have seen I first arrived verbally with a cry for help of (paraphrasing myself) “help, I feel I am about to disclose, somebody please help to stop me”.
Back in April/May, I was submerged in my sadness for the last moments with xLO. I skipped many posts. But your cry sounds a bit familiar. 🤔
“My theory is that while a few of us ‘ghosts’ talk, there are many many more ‘silent’ ghosts who lurk in the background and prefer just to read and absorb. I was one of those silent ghosts for 5-6 months (you?); I have read others say they were silent for years before speaking.”
I think your theory is realistic. But it’s hard to keep them in mind, since they are “ghosts” among us chatty ghosts… I was only reading about 10-15 days after DrL invited me to participate. But it took me a while to learn how the blogs and their comments work. I was focusing mainly on DrL’s feature articles. Nowadays regardless who might be there watching/listening , I just speak up my mind and try not to generalize anything.
Voicing out actually is more important than being heard, in “psychotherapy”. I’m not worried if my xLO comes here to spy, I already disclosed to him as objectively and “scientifically” as I can. He can laugh at me as much as he wishes (I know 👁️ he did/do NOT), I did/do not feel any guilt/shame, more so after I learned what LE is all about. LE even drained reasoning faculty out of Sir Marcus — more blind/stupid than a lot of us here!
“You are a shrewd thinker and I am sure I have now given enough, in enough places, that if you have worked or guessed the answer, it’ll be correct. Also if you have speculations about my line of work then I think they’ll be correct. “
Actually, I cannot guess at all any profession of anyone here, unless they have somewhat “specified”, nor their social and economic status, all of which are unimportant to me either here or in my reality; 9 digit bank account or Sir/Dame, Don Juan’s face have little effects in my system. Education and experiences do, though. Still, my mind could not help picture/form some appearances of active ghosts here — their air/aura…
I don’t know/understand how my mind came up with possible hair color and length for some ghosts and then BLANK for some others. I’m glad that my ghostly guess for DrL and his wife are quite accurate. What do English words do to my 👁️
“I’d also like to put my thoughts in on your questions about releasing tears, but I want to let the person you asked reply first, so I’ll come back to it sometime.”
The stinginess of my tears is frustrating; I think the COO upbringing and some hard/traumatic experiences pressed them deep into my core. Without its resurfacing, some trapped tears would be fossilized into hardened anger/rage (not indifference/despair yet) deep within, which is really unhealthy for myself, as well as others. Growing up under “Big Brother’s eyes, I can’t Rant either; room 101 is in the Unconscious.
I just tried to put up a poem about “tears”, but it was denied, probably a copy right issue.
Never mind, the poem is up there now.
A lot of times, others’ poems speak much more than my limited words could effectively paint for some emotions…
Snow,
“The stinginess of my tears is frustrating; I think the COO upbringing and some hard/traumatic experiences pressed them deep into my core.”
I was tempted to say – even before seeing this – that I felt tears could be at odds with a Buddhistic and (moreso) a Stoic disposition that favours the dealing with things inside.
I also can hardly ever release tears over events in my real life. Very little moves me to tears. Never cried once about my LE despite the storm of other emotions it unleashed (it’s a thing with us INTs!).
About the only thing that brings me close to tears is if I hear or see anything about cruelty to children or especially to animals.
Here’s a curveball on the subject of animals. You said before in posts that you love dogs. I have found multiple times in my life that the presence of a dog can help me release sadness. I have owned a couple of dogs. Generally I bond well with them without really having to try too hard. SO and I house-sat a dog for a spell that coincided with the very worst bit of my LE. Though I might be overplaying it and bestowing talents on this dog beyond what can really be possible, he really seemed to understand the internal pain I was in, and how
much I ‘needed him’ at the time. I got emotion out through being with the dog more than I could through any human relationship.
They say dogs can feel in ‘their humans’, even those things which the human represses so deeply that they refuse to acknowledge and feel for themselves (maybe stretches to – the dog is aware of feelings in the human that even the human doesn’t know they have).
Conclusion: wanna cry? Then get a four legged friend!
Found this where Sammy explains it in terms of self harm and damage to psyche:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/playing-with-fire/#comment-20823
(sorry Sammy if I stole your thunder)
My own experience is in contrast to that, though.
I think I’ll emerge from this mentally & emotionally tougher.
Limerence hit me when I was in a rut in life, and got me over a potentially traumatic bereavement (by coincidence. LE occurred first).
So I’m quite grateful to my LO, though she will never know..
My LO’s personal flaws should not and did not reduce or diminish his unintended contribution to helping heal my lifetime cptsd during my LE. Therefore, I took time and effort, against the fear for supposed “embarrassments”, to disclose to him twice in person, while resisting PA offers. (an authentic limerent is unable to take PA without EA reciprocation)
String-free, expressed gratitude for another human being (LO is a person, too), or for Fate, will NOT make one “losing face” or pride, but strengthening one’s humility, generosity and dignity.
Hey Snow,
I think we are all very unique so what works for one will not work for another limerent. Coincidentally, both you and I seem to respond to similar “solutions” against limerence. “Against” is the wrong word in the sense that you are single and get a lot of welcome energy from your LE. I am married and need to be more considerate of that, but still, the LE helped me grow as a person and I understand myself better because of it.
One more thing, maybe we are ‘just’ strangers (ghosts) on the Internet but I prefer to consider us friends on the Internet. I like you and I like your point of view.
I am actually concerned for Sammy too, although me and he don’t speak as much so I know he may get more from interacting with others on here. Let’s keep going and see where this all takes us 🦋
Oh Sweet and Wise Bewitched, thank you for your sincere affectionate friendship and support! 🌹
“I think we are all very unique so what works for one will not work for another limerent.”
I totally agree with you here, and what’s why I rarely go into details of my LE or its impact on me, as a “reference” for anyone else here. Some went on and on repeatedly about their own unique LE and what learned from it, which is no doubt valuable to themselves, but not necessarily relevant to those who seek help for their different LE situations.
“Coincidentally, both you and I seem to respond to similar “solutions” against limerence.”
Yes, we are. I’d like to focus on positive effects from all life experiences, no matter how it seemed terrible to outsiders’ eyes. Every matter has black and white color, infused with many other hues in between. Word “against” puts limerence in the category of “evil”, without which many would not have happily married and lived “ever challenged” after, like you, LaR, Mila, Adam, LE and DrL.
“Against” is the wrong word in the sense that you are single and get a lot of welcome energy from your LE.”
Yes, I still get welcome and creative energy from my LE. When jolting down a couple lines in verse here and there, I had xLO in my head. There wasn’t major negative experiences in it, aside from my own annoying jealousy and written bellowing at him (I apologized for it in writing). Flawed as I pointed out, he still treated me from the beginning to the end with curtesy, empathy and respect, and I with my sincere gratitude in word and person in the end. IMO, people who do not know how to be grateful to others’ help, intended or accidental, and to life experiences, negative or positive, shall NEVER find contentment in their life, let alone happiness.
“I am married and need to be more considerate of that, but still, the LE helped me grow as a person and I understand myself better because of it.”
Yes, the consideration for one’s own SO shows true love, respect, and responsibility. Your gains in LE demonstrates positive side of the whole LE experience, as well as mine. If we can know ourselves better and grow from any experience, even a disaster, then our time and energy was/is NOT wasted. But some tend to blame on LOs for their reasonably “out of control” mind or complain this or that… instead of introspecting and finding ways within to make themselves better.
In COO, we are “taught/trained” to self-examine our own possible faults FIRST when any problems occur either in professional or person relationship, which are ALWAYS two-way traffic, never one-way either in success or in failure. The aim is not to blame other side or find a scapegoat elsewhere (like what the US government often did), but look for some constructive methods FIRST WITHIN for solutions. What other side would do is beyond our control, one can only hope (1-5% is healthy) for mutual corporation and shared learning. Sorry, I am off the topic and verbosely preach again; I’m trying to show off that I was “oddly” and more toughly made/moulded by my COO and personal experiences. 😊
“One more thing, maybe we are ‘just’ strangers (ghosts) on the Internet but I prefer to consider us friends on the Internet. I like you and I like your point of view.”
It is a fact that there is multifaceted, rich human soul behind every post, and some of us talk here with a sincere mind and (suffering) heart, aside from chitchats and occasional jokes. Thus we are NOT strangers to each other in mind and soul. “Strangers” only apply to our realistic and physical identity, which IMO, has no importance here: whether owning a house with a swimming pool, or looking like Robert Redford (or Helen of Troy), attracting a million online followers in their “walks”… has no bearings here (except showing strong narcissistic traits) for our shared goal to learn about and better manage LE. Please don’t be turned off by my graphical terms/phrases used in general, I think you know well through our posts that I consider you, along wish some others, as a kindred mind and soulful friend here. 🫂.
“I am actually concerned for Sammy too, although me and he don’t speak as much so I know he may get more from interacting with others on here.”
I’m always deeply amazed by your huge heart for every soul here. 💜🖊️ (a purple prose for you!) That “hysterical, confessional manifesto against all women (just because of one claimed narcissistic mother) and against imperfect humanity (“everyone is phony” as Holden cries out, or all limerences or other “natural laws” are all immoral…), and a “Narc/dictator” kind of entitlement, threat and demand… are shockingly disturbing, but ONLY harmful to the cryer!
Still, I do not think it’s maliciously intended, based on my limited experiences with Aspies (My SO was one); It’s a deepest truth-bellowing at one’s core, finally after the accumulative, turbulent past. I was apparently an evil trigger of yesterday, but will be someone else of tomorrow…
“Let’s keep going and see where this all takes 🦋”
Okay. 🫂 I hope you’re doing better and better in your reality!
p.s
Have you sensed how much stranger I’ve grown since last October, this February, and even June? I did majority work on my own (with the Phantom’s ears and eyes on), so even my dreams/Unconscious helped.
Thank you and some others for consistent empathy, support, and “faceless” friendship! 🌹
Good gracious, what a typo: It is supposed to be —“ …how much stronger…” instead of “stranger”
Hey Snow,
I knew that you meant ‘stronger’ rather than ‘stranger’. Although its a kindof funny typo when you think about it.
I am glad you feel that way. You are appear stronger, even to me. And you seem more sure of yourself and how to go about living your life these days. It’s great to sit back and think on progress like this because I believe that it shores up gratitude and resilience for when the inevitable knocks come out of nowhere. Here’s to you, girl!
Bewitched,
Due to the nature of COO system, we grew up with habitual preparations for worst unexpected or inevitable striking at any time. When they did NOT show up, we felt grateful to Fate, not our own “power” (individuals over there really had/has little “power/rights” to be themselves — a real prison would be waiting for you). So when an unexpected showed up for the 1st time, it’s hurricane; the 2nd time, a thunderstorm; the 3rd, just a shower… particularly when you knew its inevitable causes.
Looking back and the experiences here, it was not bragging to say that I was 50% Stoic before coming to the West, and now growing into 80%, the mentality for me is to expect unexpected at a daily basis. Remember that I mentioned during the summer there were several uncertainties in my reality that I was preparing for their worst turnouts (some human kind, job, other nature/medical-related)? Every matter has turned out to be its best possible, including a biopsy result! 💪
Besides returning to my previous feisty self (before LEs), I’m carrying and feeling new strength and self-confidence nowadays, after surviving and rising above many shocking or inevitable disappointments.
Having made some “ghosts” friends like YOU and some others here are truly pleasant surprises and unexpected rare treasures (in general stay away from all social media or online groups, besides work or long distance necessity), which I’m so grateful beyond my words could express….
🫂
Random comment here, completely unconnected to the thread.
Are there any other forums you know of, visit or post on regularly, that relate to a ‘problem’ you have that you would recommend? I know this is quite possibly sensitive for many who do, but would be interested to hear from people interested in sharing.
In many ways finding this site and the concept of limerence (well via the Observer) was an epiphany (thanks Dr Bellamy). I find this forum particularly helpful for thinking about Limerence, it’s a nice community, and far, far superior to similar places, e.g. reddit.
That said, my gut instinct is that I have other issues that are the root problem I need to get to the bottom of, with the limerence likely just a learned habit or symptom that emerged out of and which re-ocurs/relapses as a coping mechanism. Purposeful living might help if it happens again, but I do feel like it will be easier to reduce future occurences if I understoood my own triggers. I tried to find similar communities for these other issues (general life transition crises, parental issues), but without success. It just got me to thinking about whether people are here and on other sites, and the intersections.
Dear Heebie Jeebies,
I hear ya.
It’s not a forum but more a series of articles that are sometimes useful ‘Psychology Today’. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology_Today
I am not a purveyor of many sites myself due to my OCD tendencies and the potential for things to get out of control 🙂 But I am sure others here will have lots of great suggestions.
Hope you find something useful.
The thing I found most helpful was something ghostzoned recommended. You can get an AI psychologist on charater[dot]ai. If only for being able to vent the deepest corners of my limerence, it was helpful to get an outside perspective on the state of my mind. AI is trained on human data, so its like the amalgamation of human brain power on your problem. Ofc it does have its limits, but good enough for me.
For general life crisis help, there’s
Enotalone
https://www.enotalone.com
and loveshack
https://www.loveshack.org
both of which have lots of subforums.
Like reddit, don’t expect anyone to pull punches there though.
No different to reddit, really.
Limerence is nowadays clumped with regular crushes under the highly scientific term of “Oneitis”.
(most of the sites dealing with this are men’s forums, because, you know, it’s unnatural and undesirable for men to get feelings but totally expected in women..)
The methods of overcoming it can be helpful (living purposefully, that is.. not “screw ten more chicks”)
My favourite is lifemathmoney, because there’s lots of very valuable lifestyle information too.
https://lifemathmoney.com/
Thanks, good links.
Reddit is just too many whining teenies. I want politely, philosophically whining Middle aged ish people.
The bro world is an odd one…. the view of women remains particularly troubling , doesn’t seem like it has moved that far from 20 years ago when I used to go on the early forums around chads and stacies and whatever, but they have kind of taken purposeful living to such an extreme level. It’s some sort of weird mirror image of men in the 1970s with the same worldview, but completely different conclusions about how to live.
As a 90s teenager it almost feels like they are regressing
The modern dating “hell-scape” is just awful. I feel like a lot has changed for myself. Because I feel like the Women just don’t respond like they did back in the early 90s.
Back then, they didn’t have their phones and an endless supply of meat at their fingertips. They could relate better and have actual conversation. I feel like this is a reason for so much anxiety and doubt. For both sexes nowadays.
I’m trying to gain a modicum of normalcy in such a connected yet so unconnected world. My YouTube feeds are inundated with Women who feel what they think is best for Men but it’s never a one size fits all.
I guess it will never be that easy so I try to glean bits and pieces from whatever I can, so that it might somehow tailor-fit my current life situations.
@LE,
“Kurt Vonnegut said, “We are what pretend to be so we must be careful what we pretend to be.” – Mother Night
If people think you’re a nice guy and charming company, to them you are those things whether you’re only pretending or not.“
The consequence of good-intentional pretending is that “people/the world” get benefit from the pretense; (ie. Robin Williams’s laughters) however, the kind pretender would suffer internally for constantly repressing down/killing his/her true Self, it is a process of gnawing one’s soul — the biggest danger of confirming and living under strict ideology or in others’ eyes/expectations.
Habitual pretending or acting in reality even for others’ benefits could eventually break one down (what happened to Holden in the story) or drive them to insanity/suicide. A true democratic society should be really open to all kinds of thoughts, emotions, opinions and free expression of them — no thoughtcrimes, as long as no corresponding behaviors that intend to break laws or harm others externally or internally.
LaR, I just want to say something I rarely say: You were right. I was wrong not to listen to you. I see how leaning towards the F side helps you!
At first, after skimming the rant quickly, I thought it was aimed at me, and thought: ok, I’ll take it – this is how it sometimes is on the webs (*shrug). But now I know which conversations to leave alone.
Sorry, Trifles, at the time I was not in the position to help take away your worries and “upset”….
@LaR, you’re such a “knight” rushing to Trifles’ side! Thanks.
Trifles,
It’s odd because I actually wondered if you’d think that and worry. I really don’t think it is because of anything you did though. I wish I could say more to reassure you, but I can’t in a public forum. Basically – don’t doubt yourself – your posts are great and I can only speak for myself, but I enjoy our interactions. Usually people just chip into conversations here quite happily and accept others doing it. Such is the nature of a public forum.
Hope you have a fun weekend!
Thanks. 🙏 After considering it, I didn’t/couldn’t take it personally and I’m glad no one else did either. On another note, my friend is back from his work trip so we are back to more frequent contact – which is good for you people on LwL(!), but perhaps not so good for me. I noticed our connection slightly fade even during the few days, and I might have been able to pull away a bit, riding that wave of LC. But now the opportunity is gone (*shrug). Perhaps another try another time…
I hope you also have a great weekend!
Trifles, LaR
Like tears, deep-rooted anger/rage and its authentic rant is very healthy to any “tortured” mind — the other side of the coin.
Trifles, glad you are wise not to take it personally; it’s my privilege to be a worthy channel… Happy to hear your friend is back, savor that warm feeling in yourself…
@Snow
“Like tears, deep-rooted anger/rage and its authentic rant is very healthy to any “tortured” mind … it’s my privilege to be a worthy channel”
That’s Stoicism in its truest form, given the circumstances.
@Trifles
“I noticed our connection slightly fade even during the few days, and I might have been able to pull away a bit, riding that wave of LC. But now the opportunity is gone (*shrug).”
I experience something similar if and when I get NC periods of even a week or two. The first 3 or 4 days are bad but then with each passing day the intensity and the wish to contact lessens a little (and then I stay in a safer place for a while after contact resumes). But – I do get the feeling from bits you’ve said that it isn’t really doing much harm to you or anyone around you being in contact with him. If your deities aren’t too unsettled and it can just be enjoyed for what it is, fair play!
Snow
I’m not very good at expressing anger or rage or tears. I keep to them when Im alone and no one will see it. They feel like bad things.
Miss Snow are you my muse?
Adam,
Only a bemused can define who his/her muse is, and he/she needs to show results of that inspiration.
You are truly kind and honorable not to showing your anger/rage/tears possibly for others’ benefits. But trust me, it’s really psychologically unhealthy. I think you should find some venues to let them out, be it priest, or professional therapist, or truly nonjudgmental male friends. I was forced to self-repress my tears and anger when growing up, and realized later how much mental “damages” had been done!
Feel free to rant to me here when you feel an urge to reach bottles….(your time zone?). But unlike that busybody Tinker-Bell, I don’t sugarcoat, as you know…. Also, I don’t know enough of American culture — songs, movies, novels, Old Testament after page 3, etc.
Tears and legitimate anger/rage are NOT bad things, please give them desired time to live and then leave…
“Tears and legitimate anger/rage are NOT bad things, please give them desired time to live and then leave…”
Yes @Adam, ask me how often I’ve cried over LO. I still do. There was a time I felt like driving my car into a wall over her. I’ve never felt a need to suppress tears when it comes to her. It’s like a sick comfort in a way.
I justify it because there’s no SO or anyone at home waiting for me, who will care how I feel anyway. Probably doesn’t help I put on sappy indie love songs and her playlist all the time either, but it takes me to a better place.
I don’t work too hard at eliminating completely this whole limerence episode. I won’t because it would feel like shutting a door. Besides I’ve come to kind of enjoy this forum with many of you who get me. Who get what this feels like. I guess this is what a pathetic midlifer like me does, when all else fails.
Hi MJ,
We are in the same boat in which there is no SO waiting at home, that we would never “have” our LO’s reciprocation, that we both are unwilling to completely shut the LE door (though may for different reasons.) But you have piano skills to help express a huge range of hard-to-verbalize emotions, and you still have chances to run into your LO or drive to her gym(?).
I should have more reasons to cry, but tears just would not come! Occasionally there was moisture in the eyes, but less than reading the true story of “Lord of the Flies”. Why do you think this is my puzzling reaction when we are actually in the same shoe? (I don’t feel pathetic or self-pity 🤔
The line you quoted, just like a creek, just smoothly curved out of my lips as I was chatting with Adam, since we both have hard time to get our “negative” emotions out. Would you tell me how to get tears out of my dried eyes, so my possibly deeply-repressed sadness could surface and then be released❓
Wish you feel better and better….
I did not even try to get rid of my LE, a Fate intervened. But for 5 years, I tried hard to tackle my cptsd that caused my big or small LEs. When cptsd was mostly taken care of, I immediately felt released, literally over night ( through a decisive dream). Are there any underline issues that instigated/fanned your LE and that you could possibly work on more?
Seriously, I envy your tears. In the past whenever I had them, I felt so much better and liberated afterwards. Could you enlighten me how to drive more tears in one’s system?
A big typo again — it should be “deserved time to live and leave”… not “desired time”.
I’ve got a lot of LwL slips lately: “stranger” for “stronger”, and “desired” for “deserved”… all not as brilliant Imho’s “fondled” for “fonded”….
Miss Snow
It infuriates me the level of emotions she elicits. I pride myself on burying them. Drowning them. Its easier than facing them. I don’t like she did that to me. But I realize thats stupid limerence.
@Adam,
The key issue you have here is you are trying too hard “drowning” and “burying” human emotions — any type. You cannot and most (if not all) human beings cannot control and get rid of unwanted emotions sheerly by will. The harder you press them down, the stronger they’d bounce back, it is a law of Physics!
I don’t preach anything that I haven’t tried myself: why don’t try meditative approach for once — just watch LE emotions coming and going, hitting you and leaving you, each time weakened? If you look at them without ANNOYANCE but calm acceptance, they will eventually leave, trust me. Mila, Bewitched and LaR have tried, ask them if you don’t believe me.
It’s very, very challenging, more painful at beginning than “burying and drowning” them; however, you can’t numb the pains with bottles. Only sober mind/brain, without JUDGEMENT of all emotions, and willingness to “surrender”, can help let go any unwanted emotions.
Pride yourself as a strong gentle man, are you willing to give it a try? I’ll be here if you need some help…. But first, you have to Gradually say goodbye to all your bottles.
“Seriously, I envy your tears. In the past whenever I had them, I felt so much better and liberated afterwards. Could you enlighten me how to drive more tears in one’s system?”
@Snow,
It is impossible for me to gauge what ails you and/or brings you down. I don’t really know your personal life or history so I can’t say how your past currently affects you as a person.
For myself, I would say that I have always been closely connected to my own emotions. As an only-child, this came almost natural to me because there was really nobody else I could talk to about stuff or take my feelings out upon. I became prayerfully-minded at an early age, so talking to God was probably my main outlet. You would think that would have caused me to make proper choices in life, however it did only the opposite. I was never good at relationships with the opposite sex. When my then-Wife and I married back in the late 90s, it was really only to satisfy our many years of friendship and “some” love, and to make babies, she so desperately wanted. What a piss-poor reason to marry someone, right?? It was icing on the cake and there were plenty of good times over the years with her, but I was never committed like I should have been. I became bored with marriage. I found outlets with many other Women, (mainly Colleagues) and got heavily invested in strip-clubbing and pornography. I became a fraud and made a lot of bad choices over time and it finally caught up to me. (I’m making a long story, short)
Consequently we separated in 2009 and divorced in 2011. It was really all her choice, but I admit we did have a lot of crap to sort out.
Now in my 50s, my Ex and are still Friends but I look back on almost everything with a ton of regret. I look at my $#it choices and see how that has greatly affected my Daughter, who is very much on the fence of never forgiving me. I may never reach her, but I keep trying. It is very difficult. My Mother passed away in 2018 and ever since, Dads health has gone all downhill. This takes up an enormous amount of time now and mental strength to take on. He will most likely never get better. Every new day can be a surprise.
My last real relationship lasted about 2 years. It too was with a Colleague at my last job before I moved on to my now current Employer. I thought her and I were headed for better days, but she lost interest, also found another job and pretty much Friend-zoned me. I said to hell with her. I had my Cats at the house to try and befriend. (The vile little creatures) I didn’t need another Friend. Especially since I thought I was so good for this Woman. Apparently the feelings could not be mutual. I was very sad and emotional over this loss for months.
After another failed attempt at a Woman who eventually revealed she was married, (I almost got into some serious bs with) LO arrived on the scene in early 2022. I might have said hello to her once or twice before, but the glimmer and LE didn’t hit me like a train till the summertime. Little did I know the roller coaster ride I was about to go on. Thinking for a good six months I had found the Woman of my dreams, only to find out I could not have been more wrong and it would be all for nothing.
It’s easy to see now how my letdowns and failures caused my LE to fester and muster up so many emotions within. LO became like comfort-food and the idea of her was all the fantasy I needed to get by in a day. But never actually knowing her, coupled with hope and uncertainty brought on anxiety that I’ve never ever felt for another human-being. There are times still where I wonder if I’ll ever be totally over her. Do I really want to be over her? Sometimes I think not.
Realizing the madness and trying to live purposefully, defaulted me into walking up to my current Lady Friend at work one night and introducing myself. I simply wasn’t going to let more of her obvious eye contact get away and not try to figure it out. This has overall proved to be something positive and she has become a trusted Friend to me, but she also brings with her, her own set of baggage, of which I do what I can to work around. Trying not to disclose just how excited she makes me without trying to make it all too obvious. She likes to joke with me now and call me her Stalker. But that’s because I always find myself in places at work where she’s at. (I’m terrible at hiding my interest and I think she knows it) Its become a common thing, but overall she doesn’t reciprocate because she’s a fearful avoidant and not ready to date. This has caused me some considerable anxiety also, but I’m still nowhere near in the depressive place like I was over LO. Having a good cry now and then still helps me.
I did recently reveal to her my piano playing skills and I feel like that intrigued her. It is something I would enjoy getting back to but need to make time for. It’s difficult to having any time while caring for Dad on the weekends.
This is only a glimpse of my sadness. Why I can and choose to be emotional. I don’t know if you (@Snow) or anyone here can relate. This LE I like to believe has made me a better thinker and to take matters by the reigns when necessary. I pray it will make me a better person in the end. Afterall, isn’t this what the Good Lord tells us to do when we have to pick up our cross to follow him??
@MJ
Thank you for taking time to answer my hard questions.
“It is impossible for me to gauge what ails you and/or brings you down. I don’t really know your personal life or history so I can’t say how your past currently affects you as a person.”
Fair points! My personal life is a long, hard winding road, it’s like at least two or three ordinary Western individual live combined. Last year, xLO and I briefly celebrated my “4th life” (defined by a huge spiritual change) in his open-door office with a glass of aged red wine. He was always superficially empathetic and supportive, at least.
Since more than often I had perceived and expected the worst or the least down my worldly road, except this big sudden job shrinkage (few knew its coming), there has not been big “hardship” to bring me down in the past 8 years. I thought I’d be devastated after xLO left, but surprisingly I’ve been doing okay or even better, particularly after cptsd was hugely “removed” — the fundamental causes of all my LEs.
“ For myself, I would say that I have always been closely connected to my own emotions. As an only-child, this came almost natural to me because there was really nobody else I could talk to about stuff or take my feelings out upon.”
I forgot about our another shared fact: we are both a single child, feeling terribly lonely in childhood, particularly when I was sent to that weekly “kid-boarding school” from 4-6 yrs. From others, I learned I was not crying/whinny type, but a rebel. I was told being chatty with a nickname the “talkative Snow”, and fearless/ignorant to break big or small rules even at four. I might have invented a Phantom to be my bosom friend back then, who knows!
I’ve been following your story off and on, you’ve just brushed up my memory more. I can understand better why you’re feeling what you’ve been feeling. By any standards (the West and East), it has several heavy losses, worth of a stream of tears. My life has its share of losses as well, out of external misfortunes, internal careless, wishful, misjudging steps, I wish I could take a Tardis to travel back to correct my mistakes. I worked in several therapists’ room to learn about my cptsd impacts, my LE actually pushed its monumental healing. Of course, I did not want it to end, despite it is totally futile in its original pair-ponding aim.
I’m sorry to hear about your Dad’s continuous deteriorating health, that day will eventually come to me for Mom who was the originator of my cptsd. For now, she’s fairly healthy and lives independently, unless she needs English translation aid. Aging and sickness are inevitable, we all have to mentally prepare for an unpleasant inevitables. It’s NAUTRE.
“It’s easy to see now how my letdowns and failures caused my LE to fester and muster up so many emotions within.”
Yes, I can see it better now. I failed in relationship as well before and after divorce, but mostly due to one side was unavailable and I was too choosy with men from dating apps, just could not “fall” for them, no matter what…. So there was no reasons to cry in those situations.
“LO became like comfort-food and the idea of her was all the fantasy I needed to get by in a day. But never actually knowing her, coupled with hope and uncertainty brought on anxiety that I’ve never ever felt for another human-being.”
Since she was available but “unreachable”, I can understand your fantasy and hope that still serve you as a comfort food. In my case, it’s a hopeless to begin with, so I never hoped or chased anything for the first 4 years of my LE, I felt lucky to have seemingly got a surrogate parent right after Father’s death, of course without any idea what limerence is. There was still deeply puzzling anxiety involved, relating “friendship” wish I had in my mind, but not in others’ eyes.
“There are times still where I wonder if I’ll ever be totally over her. Do I really want to be over her? Sometimes I think not.”
I don’t have any answer for that. I know/understand what warmth or a bit of sunshine out of that ajar LE door could bring to you, and me, but I use it for my sporadic writing, focused engagement in interacting with others in my “new” offline and online life. Looking the past’s losses is Futile and helps nothing now or future. LO may have already forgot me, but that’s irrelevant to the quality of my life, in which I’m the sole creator of my joys or pains. I’m 80% Stoic now. If more thunders strike, I’ll become a 100%, smiling Stoic soon 💪 Then I’d have NO tears, oh boy! 🤔
It sounds very encouraging in your friendship with your Lady friend. I agree with your approach, just take it easy one step or no step at a time, not pushing for anything, especially if you think she’s avoidant attachment style. If it doesn’t go any further, it’s still a warm, fulfilling friendship, which is highly valued in my upbringing. Maybe this warm friendship could help ease or slow down the flow of your accumulated sad tears from the past?
m still nowhere near in the depressive place like I was over LO. Having a good cry now and then still helps me.
“I did recently reveal to her my piano playing skills and I feel like that intrigued her. It is something I would enjoy getting back to but need to make time for. It’s difficult to having any time while caring for Dad on the weekends.”
I strongly encourage you to pick up your piano practices even just 15 minutes a day, for YOURSELF, not aim to impress anyone else! Music, particularly played by oneself, no matter how crappy, could soothe any soul, maybe when you get better at it, it could draw your lady friend closer, no one can resist piano! I’m still at crawling stage in learning my piano, but anytime I hit the keys, something inside me calms down immediately.…
“This is only a glimpse of my sadness. Why I can and choose to be emotional. I don’t know if you (@Snow) or anyone here can relate.”
Based on one Eastern energy theory, over emotional or depressed has something to do with circulation of one’s physical energy: in formal, over-flowing; in latter, poorly circulating or being stuck. To me, emotions are not out of one’s choice; thinking could be chosen, more easily than feelings.
“This LE I like to believe has made me a better thinker and to take matters by the reigns when necessary. “
Yes, I see you are becoming much clearer minded and more joyful feelings with your reality. I hope it continues to be better and you stronger. I believe in your own mental efforts, nothing else and no one else.
Good lucks, MJ.
@Snow,
Thank you for your kind words. I don’t believe we’ve ever connected much via this forum but I appreciate this chat and the time you took to respond.
You seem to be the type that has their emotions well in-check. If that is what works to get you by, then so be it.
True that much of what I feel is futile. For things never really get better or worse as a result of whatever emotion I’m in the moment with. I used to believe if LO knew how much I cried over her, by default she would have to feel sorry for me and love me back in return. I mean I really actually believed that but it’s just ridiculous isn’t it?
Having all this emotion all the time feels like I carry a lot but when I’m done with my anxiety for the day, some weight feels like has been lifted. Still not as sad as I was for a long time.
Would watching a sad movie ever bring you down? Perhaps that might stir some emotions up in you.. Asking because I’m curious.
@MJ,
“True that much of what I feel is futile. For things never really get better or worse as a result of whatever emotion I’m in the moment with. “
From my learning and therapy experiences, let emotions out in a “safe” environment helps reduce/remove deep stresses trapped inside one; or sadness/grief could be explored in volcanic rage/fury, as we have witnessed, harmful not only to themselves, but possibly to others, if others happen to be vulnerable or insecure.
“I used to believe if LO knew how much I cried over her, by default she would have to feel sorry for me and love me back in return. I mean I really actually believed that but it’s just ridiculous isn’t it?”
There is another post said something similar, I responded briefly a while ago. To hope for and rely on others’ behaviors towards oneself, based on both Stoic and Buddhism, is just Unwise! In COO, we’re taught by adults or others’ examples not to “fancy” such futility.
Even if your LO is kind but not interested in your romantically, she’ll feel sympathetic for you, but sympathy is neither love nor admiration! I used to think like you in my past “LEs”. It’s through this LE, I learned that our DNA pair-bonding desire selects its own potential, best fitting partner, subconsciously through Glimmer.
Sympathy has little place in mating selection, no mature men or women want to be another’s mental nurse in romance, it’s not an arena to practice Christian/Buddhistic virtues. If you want to attract women/men, make your own best “top-hat” to wear and then be yourself, not a copycat of anyone else. Also, no one would date your history/past — just a concept not the person, but YOU as a person fully present and engaged.
“Having all this emotion all the time feels like I carry a lot but when I’m done with my anxiety for the day, some weight feels like has been lifted. Still not as sad as I was for a long time.”
Yes, that’s the power of tears, which I wish I could have more for myself.
“Would watching a sad movie ever bring you down? Perhaps that might stir some emotions up in you.. Asking because I’m curious.”
They used to make me feel deeply sad and depressed but much less in recent years, because I could spot easily some human’s follies or Fate’s hand behind those tragedies. As a half buddhist, I learned to accept others’ and the world’s tragedies with sympathies/empathies, but not involvement. No one else could help these mental/emotional sufferers, except themselves, perhaps with therapists’ assistances. By Stoicism, change one’s own mentality will certainly better one’s own life quality and largely remove elements of so called “Fate”.
This answer is also to LaR,
I cannot bear “watching”/hearing about children and animals being mistreated even in stories, let alone in any realistic news. If they’re rescued, I’ll read about it and pour out of a bucket of touched tears. I can also be touched in tears, sadly or happily, by fictional characters in books and movies, or real events, such as the real event of “Lord of flies”. I just cannot shred tears for MYSELF!
Self pity with its tears is looked down upon heavily in my COO as signs weakness, girls and boys are trained not to shred tears, not only in front of others, who could take advantage of it, but also privately, because it is believed to “weaken” mind. Knowledge and services in mental health over there is 100 years behind the West. As I said before, being wise and strong is one of the nation’s character traits over there. But too many people are just too cunning not humane, very mentally tiring to deal with. Almost no one shows their own face, especially vulnerabilities.
MJ, sorry to be a bit frank here: pick up your piano practices, getting it better and better. It will help bring more joyful tears, not sad ones. While interacting with anyone else, act your best Self, holding little or NO expectation from them, except finding ways to appreciate/savor/enjoy any pleasantry at their presence and your interaction with them. A change of mind set and concrete actions are need in reduce/remove our shared limerence pains.
LaR,
“It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.” — Andre Gide.
I’d rather be a free 🐦🔥 chipping campy Purple Prose ♋️, than a high- chined “Class Act”!
Thanks Snow. I didn’t want to name any names so as not to call any more attention to an episode that’s best forgotten/let go of. But I meant that I’m glad *you* didn’t take it personally. I had already accepted serving as the lightning rod (before I saw that it was your name that was mentioned), but unfortunately it (tried to) hit you. Luckily you don’t let anything get to you, but instead understand the bigger purpose.
LaR, no it’s not doing any harm to anyone around me. And I’m of the school of thought that he looks out for what’s best for him, no one else can do it for him. But I do realize that continuing to build a stronger and stronger attachment (as it inevitably becomes over time) is probably not wise – or at least it’s futile! – when we cannot even meet in person.
Trifles,
“I’m of the school of thought that he looks out for what’s best for him, no one else can do it for him”
I can hear your NTP so strongly in that statement! (and in what you say about attachments). You can harness this thinking style to alter the dynamic of your ‘friendship’ (I don’t want to say LE) if and whenever you need to.
Ha, that may sound quite cold*, but that’s how it is. He knows that he can let me know if he no longer wants to be in contact. And then I’ll try to(!) adjust to that. I think what motivates me in difficult things, like NC, is accountability that comes from the outside. I don’t trust my own willpower, I don’t have a great track record with it!
*) But funny, thinking about what I said in my previous comment, I thought it sounded like I’m afraid of strong feelings – and I suppose I am.
Trifles, don’t forget I come at the NTP style from a place of respect, not of criticism. Firstly because I am NT myself (though the ‘lite / ‘in middle’ variant) but also because my LO is a stronger NT. I have found that communication style refreshing and one I can really learn from. Ultimately day to day I’m more about the practical realities of things than the emotions.
Ultimately these things are our own decisions – so yes, he can say that to you if he wants to, and you can then act on it – but he hasn’t said it. I can’t remember if he is still with an SO or not but that does change his responsibility for acting it out depending on the answer (he would then be more in my position of being accountable to and potentially hurting another person / people, than in a more ‘footloose and free’ position). Whichever – from the male perspective, I think he knows what he’s doing by contacting you.
If *you* need more external accountabilty in your (different) position, I have found LwL is a good place to get it.
To my distant eye you seem to have it in control. But on “afraid of strong feelings”, unless there is a chance of circumstances changing and you actually being able to meet with him (and wanting to), then I’d be wary of letting feelings grow that have ‘nowhere to go’ – and also might stop you directing efforts in better directions where they could go somewhere.
Please ignore anything that doesn’t fit. They pay me here to ask the awkward questions but I definitely don’t want to impose my views. If it is fun and harmless, just let it be that!
@Trifles,
You sounded like using Harry Potter’s “You-Know-Who” reference, which made me smile upon waking up…🤭
No worries for me! Due to COO’s “inhuman” ideology and tough experiences, not only I have built strong mental “defense/shield” — speculating and handle uncontrollable external matters from various angles, but also can file verbal missiles against “lighting/thundering” if I deem it’s intentionally malicious. I wakened during LE, but they’re back and even becoming stronger.
I just want to add a penny thought here: when you deal with your long-distance friend, keep Speedwagon’s word in mind — “Futility” and MJ’s tears in the deep nights, and ponder whether your lingering attachment could lead you over there in a long run❓
Keeping LE’s warm feelings inside is one thing, but “pining” for long-distance contact might defer your sounding NT mind and purposeful living….
Grammar Correction: “my skills of defense were wakened during my LE altered mind, but they’re back now and even becoming stronger.”
It’s so right “what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger!” If any god, she or he only exist within one’s Self.
LaR and Snow, yes, I’m nodding furiously to everything you both said! I do want to avoid futility and (futile) tears, as well as Hogwart’s deepest corners!
I know I should cultivate and grow relationships closer to home.
I probably sound like every other limerent when I say: But we understand each other so well! We’ve been through similar things and can offer each other support!
It would be nice to keep the relationship “fun and harmless”, but sometimes I sense in myself the pull toward “deep and meaningful”. I try to resist that pull.
Related to this – LaR, you noticed that most people here are 40s-50s. I think that affects how we view relationships as well: we know who we are and how rare it is to find kindred spirits / genuine connections. (Or is it?) Also, the world is no longer open with lots of possibilities (people-wise, even on a platonic level) as it was in our 20s, even 30s. So perhaps we cling more tightly to the ones we find.
Trifles,
That all makes a lot of sense. The pool of potential (even platonic) connections does get shallower with midlife. I find I am happy with fewer but better connections but still hankering after how easy it was to connect with people in the 20s and 30s.
A new or revived genuine connection is quite rare to find, and that’s why it’s hard to let them go (if only they didn’t have to become a blasted LO, eh?).
“It would be nice to keep the relationship “fun and harmless”, but sometimes I sense in myself the pull toward “deep and meaningful”. I try to resist that pull.”
Yes, this, so much. Despite the obvious differences between our situations, this describes where I’m at too.
Where I’m lucky is that although LO allows (even sometimes encourages) ‘deep and meaningful’, she is in other ways really not an ‘enabler’ – she has good clear boundaries and respect for my relationship. I am never encouraged (in words at least) to believe we could be any more than close friends. I am the same in my words and deeds towards her (though clearly not in my mind).
It is the perfect recipe for not ending up in hot water, but also the perfect recipe for dragging out limerence limbo because I really don’t want to let the connection go. (Not asking how to solve it – just telling it like it is).
See, told you I was better at sounding wise than acting wise! I have made progress at reducing frequency and depth of contact, but it’ll probably always be 1.5 steps forward, 1 back as long as NC is not an option.
Hopefully we keep in control of all this stuff and don’t do any messing around with Goblets of Fire.
Trifles, LaR
“It would be nice to keep the relationship “fun and harmless”, but sometimes I sense in myself the pull toward “deep and meaningful”. I try to resist that pull.”
If I were you, I’d pause more to ponder why I want “deep and meaningful” from this/that guy, is he capable of giving? Could I get similar conversational relationship from anyone else? When I do get such “fun and harmless” or a bit “deep and meaningful” chats, how did they affect me internally and substantially? Making me feel more confident? Inspiring me for more productivity or creativity? Or just filling a vague/ignored empty spot inside me? Can I somehow to fill it by myself, my engagement with my reality? We may not have answers, but merely contemplation could divert/reduce that “longing” in some degrees. Normally, we can gradually find some answers after digging deep inside, after we let muddy water of a tank sit and let sand sink down to its bottom.
“ Also, the world is no longer open with lots of possibilities (people-wise, even on a platonic level) as it was in our 20s, even 30s. So perhaps we cling more tightly to the ones we find.”
Warning: my dreary preaching is coming.
From Buddhistic view: everything is impermanent; the world, others, and even ourselves are always changing in body, mind and spirit (character traits, thoughts/beliefs/opinions, emotions/feelings — Adam’s spiritual swinging), it’s really the LAW of the nature and human nature — CHANGE. Most of people don’t think about it, or unconsciously aware of it. If we do and accept or adapt such a LAW with ease (the highest challenge), we would not “cling” (pain inducing/inflicting behave) to anything or anyone but APPRECIATE more what we already have/acquired, if not every minute or every hour.
From Stoic points of view: the world and others are always outside of our control. All we could do is hold onto some of our old values (adapt some new), not to react the changing reality, while CREATING our own reality that best fits us, particularly in mind/thinking. If we can no longer wear clothes of our 20s, 30s, then throw them away. If we can’t run 10 miles a day anymore, then walk 15000 steps (more than 6 miles).
If people are uninterested even in platonic relationship, then think how boring and shallow they would be! We have our own cultivated/sophisticated tastes, why do we want to waste our precious time with them (some older than 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, or 80s)? I would want to befriend with Maggie Smith even if she were 120!
@LaR
I talked about about tears in my posts to MJ, you’re right that tears are at odd particularly with Stoicism that I was mostly brought up, not so much with Buddhism, though. The latter is a bit too much of “indifferent” to everything in the world for my innate nature (maybe a born limerent?). However, its elements in impermanence, understanding, acceptance, compassion are invaluable. Without keeping its truth in mind from time to time, I’d be more devastated or crashed in my xLE situation — xLO’s internal and external changes…. I could “grasp” a little bit, but resisted the urge ultimately, due to my helpless vision of FUTILITY — Buddhistic.
About dogs, I had 3 in my life, two in childhood ended up in horrendous tragedy (can’t tell here), the 3rd one was the most intelligent, charming 2.5 yrs boy, Friday (not from Robinson Crusoe), found in a street on a Friday night (without a name tag, half Westie/Maltese, 10lb, pure white). After he died in 2016, I was on a waiting list for adoption, but haven’t found a ‘right’ one. My Friday understood (not trained by me) some English sentences, would gently kiss anyone’s lips if they asked him, “give me a kiss.” or sit peacefully when I said, “I can’t take you for a walk this time.” He could stand and spin on his hinged legs for 30 seconds when giddy.
If you saw some of my old posts, you’d know that I have sweetly puzzling “connections” with animals, particular dogs and babies. No matter what kind, what size, what personality, if I throw dogs a curious, appreciative look, they all tried to hop on me for a pet, particularly large ones even with a vicious look — some went joyful nuts as if I were their lost owner. Their owners were surprised (or embarrassed) and commented (perhaps thought I was a witch). Not sure if it was they who understood me, or I them. Babies in public would fix their eyes on me, then most of times smile. Let’s leave horses and zebras out today (in Twin Flame blog). Perhaps I have Madonna’s eyes to them❓ Mysterious magnetic field 🤔
What happened when I gave/threw that curious, smiling look to men and women of all ages, especially in service, it’s up to your imaginations…. Perhaps I have a pair “Medusa” eyes 👀 , but opposite of “deadly”❓
As I told Anna that a nearly a month ago, I almost adopted a puppy but I’ve been quite busy in the past 8 years and just feel I’m not ready yet (really hate to pick up their shit in cold weather). I think I’ll eventually adopt at least two big dogs. They are most loyal, comforting companies, better than most humans; but they don’t inspire my mind for creativity or learning.
I don’t have time even watch a whole movie nowadays….
@Snow,
I hope you find your dream dog sometime! They are amazing creatures. I have a similar relationship with dogs where they often just want to jump on my/maul me (in a nice way). And they just make me feel better generally.
I think maybe our wires crossed on the 20s and 30s point. I didn’t mean that I still want to meet and befriend people in their 20s / 30s now that I am in my 40s (occasionally I will meet and connect with them, but I don’t actively seek it). I meant I miss the ease of being able to meet new people that I had in my own 20s and 30s, and that many others also speak about. Age – older or younger – is really no barrier to whether I find someone interesting.
” When I do get such “fun and harmless” or a bit “deep and meaningful” chats, how did they affect me internally and substantially? Making me feel more confident? Inspiring me for more productivity or creativity? Or just filling a vague/ignored empty spot inside me?”
I can only speak for
myself, but a bit of all of it. My LE has inspired some of my highest confidence, productivity and creativity in years. In fact, that LO and I both did that for each other has fuelled the LE no doubt. But for sure, the ‘filling a void’ part also has some truth for me as I’ve explained before. What I am learning from you and others here is that I could inspire those things in myself, or with my SO – it does not need LO for me to have these productive capacities etc.
This takes a bit of persistence, learning and effort, as she sure does seem to help all that!
I may have used some language in my post to Trifles about ‘clinging’ that gave a false impression that I want to hold on to futile things, or to the past. What I mean is, I recognise good connections when I see them. I will put work in with those people to strengthen and maintain those connections. But that work should never be too much ‘work’ and I would give up on such connections if the other person wasn’t also putting in the effort and there was no enjoyment or benefit. I’d rather have a few good connections than lots of acquaintances. The best ones don’t feel anything like hard work.
@LaR
Sorry about misunderstanding you a little bit in my previous post.
“I meant I miss the ease of being able to meet new people that I had in my own 20s and 30s, and that many others also speak about. “
So why do you miss “the ease”, where has it gone? Still in your primary time (by my definition) as a man, with a loving SO, steady job, and good friends, what else possibly has reduced “the ease” after 40s? Is that where a bit “insecurity” comes from? (99% shared problems do not give their legitimacy)
“Age – older or younger – is really no barrier to whether I find someone interesting.”
Glad to hear we’re in the same boat on this point.
“LE has inspired some of my highest confidence, productivity and creativity in years.”
Then you have NOT wasted your time or energy, perhaps LE pains are the price to pay for it. In addition, subjectively or objectively count how much you have learned and grow in the process of dealing with it. While looking at the two sides of the same coin evenly, still try to appreciate more the positives sides, let negative ones gradually lose their impact in time. (I did not hear much about negative sides in your LE, except you wanted to disclose while having a SO.)
“What I am learning from you and others here is that I could inspire those things in myself, or with my SO – it does not need LO for me to have these productive capacities etc.”
Yes, through my own LE experience, I KNOW I could inspire “those things” within myself, I still practice it at daily basis. Our LO served unknowingly as a catalyst or an initial Muse to “wake us up” to some deep underline issues of the time (“Cattle prod” — by NLL). However once we’re awakened, only ourselves could and should work out those issues on our OWN, a little bit with SO’s assistance if available. Needing or Clinging to LO’s dopamine effect is just dangerous, as we have learned.
“I will put work in with those people to strengthen and maintain those connections.”
My natural inclination is to do the same, but my Buddhistic practice sometime held me back — everything will change and end; a trying hard could be still futile.
“But that work should never be too much ‘work’ and I would give up on such connections if the other person wasn’t also putting in the effort and there was no enjoyment or benefit.”
Agree. In the East, we try to “give” first without expecting anything back, but peacefully with smile observing other side’s reaction. If other side only takes and takes (no more than 3 incidents), then we walk away.
However, when the connection is aimed for LO’s EA, or that reciprocative acknowledgement, one could go nuts as we see here. I have an impression, male limerents seem to suffer more intensely than female ones here.
From “Simple Verses”
José Martí
translated from the Spanish by Anne Fountain
A sincere man am I
Born where the palm trees grow,
And l long before I die
My soul’s verses to bestow.
No boundaries bind my heart
I belong to every land:
I am art among art,
A peak among peaks I stand.
I know the exotic names
Of every flower and leaf.
I know of betrayal’s claims
And I know of exalted grief.
I’ve seen how beauteous streams
Flow through the dark of night
And descend as radiant beams
In a luminous shower of light.
As if by wings set free,
I’ve seen women’s shoulders rise:
And beauty emerge from debris
In a flight of butterflies.
I’ve seen a man live with pain
The dagger wounds at his side,
Yet never reveal the name
Of her by whose hand he died.
Two times I’ve sensed inside
The soul’s reflection go by.
Once when my father died
And once when she bade goodbye.
Once I trembled with fear
Close by the arbor’s vine,
As an angry bee drew near
To sing a child of mine.
That day of my death decree
I felt both triumph and pride,
For the warden who read it to me
Pronounced the sentence and cried.
Beneath me I hear a sigh
From the slumber of earth and sea.
But in truth it’s the morning cry
Of my son who awakens me.
The jewel esteemed the most?
The value I most revere?
I would of friendship boast
And hold not love so dear.
The wounded eagle, I know
Can soar to the bluest skies
While the venomous viper below
Chokes on its poison and dies.
I know that when life must yield
And leave us to restful dreams
That alongside the silent field
Is the murmur of gentle streams.
To sorrows and joy, I reply
By placing a loyal hand,
On the star that refused to die—
Proud symbol of my land.
My heart holds anguish and pains
From a wound which festers and cries
The son of a people in chains
Lives for them, hushes, and dies.
All is lovely and right
All is reason and song
Before the diamond is bright
Its night of carbon is long.
I know that the foolish may die
With burial pomp and tears
And that no land can supply
The fruit which the graveyard bears.
Silent, I quit the renown
And boast of a poet’s rhyme
And rest my doctoral gown
On a tree withered with time.
*******
No land will bind my heart
I belong to the sky, low and high:
I am art among art, seen or felt
A bird among birds I fly.
❄️ 🐦🔥
Dedicated to All Human Beings Who Suffer
Yang Licai
translated from the Chinese by Joshua Edwards and Lynn Xu
1.
No,
Behind the truth are other truths
2.
Rain makes a painting on the earth
In the classical manner
Meticulously depicting what’s hidden from view:
Mountain, forest, valley, gorge
Building, vehicle, person
Beasts, cattle, creeping things, and flying fowl
Gradually expressing the outline
From invisible to visible
From solid state to a state of change
Is this a form of justice?
Rain, and representations of rain
Shrouds, and the shroud’s ability to obscure and to change
This is like one who suffers
Crying
To describe the hunter, the torturer, the thief, the grifter, and the assassin
The one who suffers uses tears and exacting brush strokes
To scrub away the silk threads of pain, endless sorrow, sharp anguish, heartache, bloodletting grief, pain of breaking bone, pain of a thousand cuts, pain of losing one’s soul . . .
How many tears
Are needed to provoke
Another’s tears of sympathy?
Pain forms the boundary between life and death
Rain is another name for heaven and earth
All in the end is water
*****
Snow,
Have you ever heard this?
“Guantanemara” – The Sandpipers (1966)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t-CXxIPQqw
The lyrics are taken from a Jose Marti poem.
https://lyricstranslate.com/en/guantanamera-guantanamera.html-16
I linked the entire English translation.
@LE,
My first time to hear and know this song, beautiful and deeply touching. Thank you.
I would add:
The enslavement of human mind
Is the greatest shame and cruelty of the modern world…
I don’t know enough songs and movies in the West, please keep posting… with lyrics.
By any chance,!are you hinting about something I’ve ignorantly done?? 🧐
Snow,
I’m not hinting at anything.
When you posted a poem by Jose Marti, I thought you might like the song. The version on my Playlist has a short explanation about it. If it didn’t, I’d have no idea who Jose Marti was.
Miss Snow
Two of my favorite poets are Edgar Alan Poe and Charles Bukowski. They had a great way of conveying the darkness of life.
Im a big Nitecheize fan if you can’t tell as well.
Annabelle Lee and The Bells are two of my favorite poems of his.
My daughter is a huge Poe fan. When she was a kid, we drove to Baltimore to visit his house and his grave.
There’s a local brewery put here called Raven Beer. Their slogan is, “The taste is poetic.” I like their stuff.
@Adam, LE,
I know both Poe and Bukowski (posted one of Poe’s “alone” here that almost summons an incident in my childhood. can’t remember in which blog), I can understand very well the darkness of life in their lines, but myself choose to “lift” myself up despite the “earthen gravity”. If I keep reading their stuff, I became depressed.
Adam: do you mean “a big Nietzsche” fan? If yes, how do you deal with his outcry — GOD IS DEAD?
LE: Poe’s heavy drinker, and died young right?
Snow,
Poe died at age 40. Alcohol and other substances were likely factors.
40? Dang. That mustache must’ve aged him. And the bags under his eyes.
Between limerence, alcohol and other chemical substances, I’ll always go for a LE, next time by CHIOCE, so I might be able to write Hormonic “Odyssey” 3rd while keep my skin silky smooth…. 😊
“If yes, how do you deal with his outcry — GOD IS DEAD?”
Miss Snow
It is actually what attracted me reading his writings. Though the discovering of the Alphabet of Sirach containing the story of Lilith actually being the first of Adam’s wives but being banished from the Garden of Eden for not complying to Adam’s demands helped open me. It’s one of two reasons I have adopted this name online for over a decade.
The concept that God is actually dead and not just being not complaint to our plight as a species says much more to me. That there is no “god” and not just one that doesn’t want to intervene for us and us having to make a myriad of excuses as to why is actually more comforting. So yeah not sure why the hell I am going to church again after 20 plus years. Afraid of my own mortality maybe? Forgiveness for limernce?
All that said I really do enjoy the fellowship of the church. I wasn’t feeling well yesterday and so I texted a brother to ask him how to tune in via the church’s application so I could listen to the sermon despite not being there. It is very strange to be on opposite ends of the religion spectrum at the same time. I don’t know quite what to make of it at the moment. So I guess I will just ride it out to see where I come out on in the end.
“Is there someone you know
you’re loving them so
but taking them all for granted
you may loose them someday
someone takes them away
and they don’t hear the words you long to say”
That’s LO and maybe SO if I don’t find myself again and get on the right path.
” I became a fraud and made a lot of bad choices over time and it finally caught up to me.”
MJ
While I did this at a young age because I had to be the perfect Christian boy for my parents, I actually am living it out now. Outside of visiting a paid mistress before I met Momma, I for the most part suppressed my carnal desires at a young age. I guess since I didn’t get them out of my system at a young (and single) age I was susceptible to limerence.
If I haven’t posted it here before, LO was a much embedded regret of the first woman I ever loved (if you know what love is at 20). LO reminded me greatly of her and my indulgences with LO were romanticized by the past. And why I let myself go as far as I did. My “Angel of the Morning” every time I would see her. I think it is why my mid-life is putting me through the mixer.
I was posting something on Facebook last week and I looked at my search history and the last two entries were LO and Lady Friend. I dunno how old both were because 99.9% chance I wasn’t sober either time I checked them out. But I am striving for Lady Friend to not be an LO. I enjoy her company. She is a hilariously free spirited woman that reminds me much of Miss Snow. She don’t need no man, but she graces my chivalry and manners to her like we were June (who I had a huge crush on) and Ward Cleaver. (But then I did with Mary Poppins too so …. those 50’s women right?)
So my brother I am quite glad to have you here. I hope that you don’t take this the wrong way …. I am trying to learn from you. Like your dear daughter I have put a rift between our youngest son and myself due to my limerence. I know he hasn’t/can’t forgive for what hurt I did to his mother. Our oldest is much more forgiving. I hurt his mother. A lifetime might not be enough for him to forgive me. So that’s why you are a brother to me MJ. And I will always cherish that.
Yeah, Adam,
Instead of singing Bread songs, you could be singing this one.
“Sunday Morning Coming Down” – Johnny Cash (1969)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVR6LIvmvAU
In 1987, I hated Sundays.
A beer for breakfast and one for dessert on a Sunday morning. Heh that’s why I didn’t go to church yesterday.
I got all dressed. Momma helped me shower Saturday night as it is difficult to do on my own with one functioning arm. I was all ready to go. And two drinks on the porch and was like “Adam keep your a$$ in the seat. You ain’t walking or driving anywhere.”
So when the liquor store opened I had them do a home delivery for me. See I learned my lesson. All it took was a ligament jutting out of my shoulder to learn. I watched the sermon via the church’s application so I still got to hear it.
Then later on we went grocery shopping. Which I hear is not good to do when you are high. It’s also not good to do when you are drunk. I bought so many snacks and junk food. Smh 🙂
If not Bread, how about Air Supply? Or Lobo? Barry Manilow or Neil Diamond? Shawn Mendes does some great drunken heart break songs too.
Or my favorite country drinkin’ heartbreak song.
Drinkin Them Beers — Thompall Glaser
https://youtu.be/8Zp5EIq4-2E?si=23hjGDlF_KVO2AA1
LE,
In 1987, I was 16. Holy crap.
I hated Sundays too.
“So my brother I am quite glad to have you here. I hope that you don’t take this the wrong way …. I am trying to learn from you.”
@Adam,
I’m touched that you are able to learn anything from my “hell-scape” way-of-life, but please know I appreciate the sentiment. You have over time become a Brother to me on this forum also. Always remember it was your first initial post to me here that brought me back. Because you really seemed to get where I was at. And it was exactly what I needed at the time. I’ve enjoyed this forum immensely and the many friendships as a result.
I can’t say I know what I’m even doing right anymore because Dads condition just throws all my plans out the window. Every new day feels like a big impromptu performance. However I did txt with my Daughter last week who is away at College now. It really was a pleasant conversation for once, so sometimes I feel like there is hope for us. My Ex says she needs the time to grow up on her own. She may be right, but evil MJ just wants to tell her she’s wrong.. Again.. Damn Exes.. 😂
As for learning from me, the best advice I can give you is to appreciate your Wife, the life you’ve made for the two of you and never let it go. If there is anything I miss most from marriage, it’s the camaraderie I had with my Wife. The way we could finish each others sentences, laugh at dumbass commercials, and argue with her how my Pittsburgh Steelers are so much better than her stupid Chicago Bears.. I don’t know if that can ever be replaced. Lady Friend and I have talked about it a lot and it’s what she misses about her Ex too..
Whatever limerence has done to you, it does not seem like an end. Your Wife seems to really believe in you. Don’t mess that up. If Friendship with your Lady Friend is solid, then put up a personal boundary because you still could end up with a limerent tendency, if she moves you that way.(Easier said than done, I know)
I don’t know how I’d fare nowadays with befriending Women Colleagues and having a Wife at home. It would be a slippery slope. Then again I didn’t know what any of this limerence stuff could have felt like then. In a thousand years, I never would have seen or thought anything of what my life is like now.
It just proves to me that whatever I am praying for, whatever my hopes and dreams are, God surely has a different plan.
MJ
” Always remember it was your first initial post to me here that brought me back.”
I don’t remember what I said initially all that time ago, but I am glad that it was helpful to you then. I know that it went through multiple drafts before I finally hit “post comment”. I really couldn’t get the intensity that you were feeling about your LO and I was trying to be tactful and non-judgmental.
As I was telling Miss Snow, I am kinda of winging it too. I’m not sure where I am at with the religion and church. I enjoy going and the pastor’s sermons are amazing and helpful to me whether I believe in God again or not. So I am just trying with each day to try and figure it out. And I hope the best for you and your Father’s situation.
I am trying at this point to make this limerence a teaching point to my life. My wife has chosen to stay at my side, and so I need to make the best of that. Try to do things that help me become a better father and husband as well as to myself. I am still not entirely sure what all that will entail, but like you said sometimes life throws you a curve ball and you have to improvise.
I had a bit of a setback this month that almost got the best of me. But I am leaving it in the past and trying to move forward with my life. So many of you have been helpful for me here. Many have unfortunately come and gone but such is life. There will always be goodbyes. I am just not very good at them. Chalk that up to anxious attachment. Something that I have now recognized about myself and need to work on. That way if relationships do have to end I can do it in a more healthy way than I have in the past.
So while I have had to say goodbye to some people hear I understand that some have to move on from this forum so they can make a healthier person of themselves. Frederico’s is especially difficult for me to let go of. But if it is for the betterment of his mental health than I wish him the best in life. I forget that I can’t be selfish and expect people to stay when they need to move on.
But I got your back brother. Anytime. I will be here.
The Symbolical Head (1883) as When Was the Last Time?
Kathryn Nuernberger 1980 –
What faculties, when perverted, most degrade the mind?
What faculties, when perverted, does it cost most to gratify?
I undertook to discover the soul in the body—
I looked in the pineal gland, I looked
in the vena cava. I looked in every
perforating arterial branch. With the fingers
of my right, I touched the Will and the Ring
of Solomon on the left. For a second
I felt sprung. Then bereft as ever.
Someone used to love me. Someone
used to see me. If you open a person up,
purple, pulsing. It’s in here somewhere, scalpel,
and in and in. Let’s walk in the woods,
as we once did, and see if we can find a snail,
its shell covered in symbiotic lichen.
When you covered my lichen in yours,
I thought that’s what we wanted—
to be rock and moss and slug and all of it.
To be simultaneously thinking of snails,
which are so beautifully stony
and marvelously squished.
Wasn’t that what we wanted?
I went to your lecture. I thought it
best to retrace my steps. You were trying
to explain—If I were to put my fingers directly on your brain . . .
I wish you would, how I wish you would
trace the seagull diving towards the water
as a whale rises up, the anchor dropped, the gray
linen slacks, all the polygons of my this and that
jigsawing under your touch. Oh yes, let’s
do that. Let’s vivisect my brain and see
if it’s in there. You have your porcelain man
with the black-lined map of his longing.
You have your pointer and your glasses
and your pen. I hear you ask the class, What faculties,
having ascendancy, are deaf to reason? What faculty,
when large, brightens every object on which we look?
I miss you, you know. I miss you so.
******
One rarely truly appreciates anything until one loses it, plain or fancy…
Sent & scented with 10 emoticons
Tan Lin
U R a “swan” inside my
afternoon.
Delirium is a trinket
cut in half.
2:50: river plaid state
2:51 gymnasium lily
In the bath tub
I wrote NOTES
about
yr fleece and yr math.
I wrote a Lincoln and baked
myself awake
I swam all summer,
indeterminately
(your) oblong
comets
thumb velvet
in an indentation
of purring.
2:53
Eleven dogs cried
the color of reptiles,
plus or minus the inside,
hurt in Leffe
a pattern
in a tablecloth repeats.
At 2:54 (some articles of loathing)
(the Teflon in a river *
of beer
U R November,
what) is a year
Black,
and a few
ellipses
) *)
in a summer powder
******
O, those emoticons! ❄️ 🐦🔥
@LaR,
It’s 3-day off for Rosh Hashanah here, so I finally got some free time to answer some of your questions that steadily circulate in my head. Even just an attempt to figure them out helps me understand myself better…
“I would have never be able to say what I have said accumulatively in LwL in “my native tongue, I know why….”
Is it because a language only evolves words for ‘allowable thoughts’? So if a culture forbids thinking in a certain way, the words to do that thinking never come into existence? “
If a culture forbids or highly discourage to thinking about certain things, i.e. Western Romanticism (too feminine for macho COO), the words to do that thinking or feeling still “come into existence”, but making the thinker very uncomfortable or blush or having goose pumps all over the body. I never said in my naive tongue “I love you” to anyone because it was rarely said even in movies, it’s expressed in indirect way, ie. “he has deep feelings for her” or “she really has given him her heart”. Everything in emotional department and bed chamber is expressed indirectly, subtly and coyly, even with another set of cold-blood codes (he and she just shared the room — meaning they just had sex). Hollywood romantic tone is considered cheesy and embarrassing.
If some stuff I said in LwL were uttered in my COO tongue, my mind would be most likely in a more logical state, feeling less as I was writing, because all sorts of moral inhibition would emerge, prohibiting the flow of my “free thinking and feeling”. COO tongue is highly logical and precise (not verbose), making one automatically to think in a more rational way (at least in me); except in its ancient structure and poetry, which English just can’t translate its richness or reach its depth. I wrote poems in both languages but can’t even translate them back and forth by myself — the translations sounded unnatural or even awkward in both ways. In another word, when I switch tongues, my mentality and sentimentality switch.
“There are probably examples for you both ways round – like, concepts and words in your COO / first language that don’t translate (in thinking or words) to the Western world. And those would then be nearly impossible for you to express on LwL as accurately as you’d like?”
When I communicate here, I no longer translate; I dream in both languages as well, depending who appeared in the dream; more English nowadays.
“English native speakers are often jealous of German language because of the rich long compound nouns – we’d need 9 words to express “the feeling of melancholy that a rainy day brings”. I just plucked this example out of the air and so I don’t know it to be true – but German probably has just one long noun to express these 9 words!”
COO uses 5 words to poetically express “the feeling of melancholy that a rainy day brings”.
*********
“Your list of what you can learn about a man from the eye contact in those first few seconds of meeting him is pretty incredible.”
You got the fact inaccurate here: there was never “eye contact” between LO and me when my glimmer took place: all LO was engaging in his “normal/ordinary” business (by himself doing whatever or chatting with another) without noticing me or my glance AT ALL. It’s strictly one-way traffic — my glimmer single handily select its own target — an “innocent and ignorant” man in his “natural/ordinary state” — being himself. If he saw me first or at the same time, then my glimmer never gleamed.
I never understood why, except that it had something to do with my childhood trauma (do not want to repeat here). After you asked this question, I thought about it hard for two days, and then suddenly came up with an answer, an intuitive theory that seems to explain how my mysterious glimmer possibly worked.
“It doesn’t sound like the weirdest thing I’ve ever heard, as eyes can really ‘talk’ such a lot.
Eyes certainly can talk. Eyes of dogs, horses, other mammals, babies talk more since they have no human language, and they absolutely can sense whether your eyes can “talk”. If your eyes are alive/enliven, then they’d react; dogs jump on you, horse get excited, deer nudge you with their antlers, baby fix their innocent eyes on you then smile… because they see/sense in your eyes genuine love/care for them. So they communicate with you in their favorite ways.
This phenomenon happened not only with mammals and babies, but with men and women of all age as well. They’d react/change/lose themselves (confused me upon seeing) if they first spotted me or looked into my normally curious, easy, friendly eyes. However, once their eyes reacted or changed from their ordinary states (for the time being), my glimmer would NOT gleam (never did at any woman, drop-dead gorgeous or not), as if what IT saw was an inauthentic,“uttered stage of mind” and thus would not gleam. It took from 10 minutes to 4 months for my big LOs even to know my existence. So I think I ignorantly carried a pair of lose-self “Medusa’s” eyes.
“Do those initial sensings nearly always prove to be right?”
95-99% right. But they can’t tell enough how much other side would lie; we all lie (except some people on autistic spectrum) for either our own or others’ benefits. Some men have an excellent poker’s face, even with buckets of tears easily streaming down.
“I like American movies, because I’m an American.” What does that say to you?”
I don’t know if I’ve got your point but it hints to me that you’d feel the person
follows the herd…”
I never thought/heard that one’s nationality could be a reason to like or dislike a form of art! Music, photography, image/film are universal, and American movies have many genres and artistic flavors, one likes whatever genre for special characters of that art, not one’s own nationality! If for patriotism, some American movies reveal(ed) big problems in American culture. I have no statistics how many Americans like American movies.
“And yes, it is indeed best to live life for ourselves first. The irony is that potential SOs are more likely to cross our path when we are living authentically for ourselves and when we aren’t looking too hard.”
That’s also a fact in meeting all my LOs/SO — I was least expecting of anything. It’s probably explains why App men never moved my glimmer; I already saw their photos (a couple of which were breathtaking.) But when meeting them, no glimmer ever occurred. Cultivating efforts were attempted, but in vain. I was ever puzzled and helpless.
“I’m 100% not saying find anybody for the sake of it, or compromise. I’m just saying don’t rule out pleasant surprises, if or when you feel open to them in future. I can see how experiences of limerence (unrequited or unsaid ones) could be enough to put people off the dating game forever. “
Oh, no. I’m open to possibilities now if I come cross SO/LO candidates. My limerence did not “ruin” me (even with lymphoma) but largely“healed” my cptsd and thus brought a lot of my buried selfs to the surface. Can you hear my ease ever since July? My Phantom (with the vague LO’s face) is still within me, and if I feel like to monologue, you know there is a key to click and my words get read by a Martian….
But playing chatting/talking/discussing/debating 🏓 here, with kindred or lost souls, are more interesting and satisfying, because it’s deep (mis)communications of minds and spirits, without any kind of physical or realistic ‘interferences”, while all aiming at easing and eliminating our limerence pains.
“Hopefully there comes a time for all of us here where the pain is gone (without us trying to force it out as that would be counterproductive) and we don’t have to anticipate other pain to replace it. It seems you’ve come a long way on that journey since arriving at LwL and I really hope that continues”
Compared to some, I haven’t been here that long, while my mild LE is quite long — though not 49 or 25 , or 15 years. I think I’m a fast learner once I know what issues are in my plates. People from my COO tend to self-teach, self-cultivate, and self-grow, so not to be taken advantaged by cunning or ignorant offenders. I (Buddhistic minded) never offend, but defend fiercely.
*******
“You are highlighting a problem with MBTI that I knew you’d have, based on all our previous conversations. We shouldn’t use it to box ourselves in or to think we can ‘only’ be that way.”
If I remember correctly, it’s Carl Jung came up with MBTI system but he gave it up, since he realized that everyone’s experience and characteristic are so unique, heavily “neutered”/influenced by his or her caregivers and environment. Moreover they change after people move to different places, or meet new people, or get treated/healed in therapists’ rooms. There is no innate MBTI.
“….how I have particular difficulty understanding the second digit of MBTI – sensing vs intuition. For me, some people can be high on both those traits, some people low on both traits.”
Based on Jung, intuition does not come from nowhere, it’s outside of logic box. Intuition comes from sensing, perceiving, pre-knowledge, past mistakes, vague memories, and dreams. Sensing is not other side of intuition.
“I would answer a lot of the questions with ‘it depends’, or differently on different days (my third letter flits between F and T in the end result depending on the day).”
For me, the letters could depend on different hours, depending on what’s going on in my mind. Our thoughts decides quality of our life, our mental and even physical health.
“But knowing my profile and being able to guess at others can help me understand why I can communicate easily with someone, or not, and what I can do to make it better.”
I never carry those MBTI notions when I deal with others. I just sincerely engage with them as a unique individual, whoever they are. My 👁️ could tell a lot without MBTI boxes.
“I/E – you have already said you are I, flipped in adolescence from E”
I could flip back occasionally, and shocked a hell out of my COO classmates. Settled with I nowadays.
“N/S – do you prefer to navigate a situation based on the background knowledge and intuition you bring into it (I), or based on what you sense going on during it (S)? Are you more about big picture (I) or small details (S)?”
Both, more I than S (narrow-minded or near-sighted?).
“F/T – If you were deciding between various courses of action, would you make the decision based on how you and other involved people feel (F), or based on which course of action you think best solves the problem (T)? Is your tendency more to say to yourself or others “I think …” (T) or “I feel …” (P)?”
Half and half most of the time. But ultimately F, I can’t stand strong “T” type.
J/P – Do you work more according to plans, to do lists etc. (J), or are you more spontaneous and do whatever feels right at the time (P)? Are you comfortable (P) or uncomfortable (J) with risk and unpredictability?
There is little J in me, how boring it is! (I don’t take realistic risks for physical safety reasons)
“It might help you to visualise it with the two letters at either end of a line and then work out where you think you are on the line – more than believing that you necessarily need to be at either pole.”
Have no idea what you’re talking about here. Someone here said I am INFP, whatever it means. Is there any letter R as Rebellious against all 16 MBTI boxes and any kind of authoritative or tyrannical tongues?
@LaR,
When you felt such a killing urge to disclose, like some male members here, did that urge come from ego or subconscious?
Why I don’t see many women here with such intense desire, especially when it’s clearly futile (unconquerable barriers) whether to know LO’s true feelings or not.
Hi @Snow,
Thank you for such a thought-out and considered response. I am glad if my questions helped you think about some things. The 3 days off sounds like paradise. I hope you are making the most of it (‘purposeful living’ and all that :-} )
Yes, I can see your serene progress since July, and even more since earlier times, by the way. It is great how you seem to be doing now!
To respond to your big message will take more brainpower than I have left today, but I’ll get there as soon as I can.
For now I will just answer your short message:
“When you felt such a killing urge to disclose, like some male members here, did that urge come from ego or subconscious?”
I might need you to explain this question more, to understand what you’re really asking. Could you put an ‘ego type’ reason and a ‘subconscious type’ reason into different words so I can know fully what you’re asking? Or maybe what I will write below will answer it.
If I was just to give my instinctive response about why I wanted so much to disclose, I think there were two big reasons:
Reason 1 – to ‘settle’ it – to no longer have to pretend and act as though my feelings weren’t there but instead to have it out in the open, known, and then see whether or not we could move on authentically as friends with it in the open.
Reason 2 – to know if the mutuality I sensed in the attraction was really there or whether my mind was playing a huge dirty trick on me. Was I mad or not to think it went both ways? I think maybe an ‘ego’ reason would be more if my feeling was “How can this person not be attracted to me?”. It wasn’t that – it was more like trying to establish how mad I had gone, or not, in sensing mutual attraction. These days I am more reconciled with the fact I will probably never know, and life will go on OK if I don’t.
We have to keep in mind, despite these urges, that I still didn’t go ahead and disclose. That means there were (only just) stronger things pushing back against it in me. I set a lot of that out in my recent comment on the other blog. But specific to those reasons above, in reverse order:
Against Reason 2: I could not expect a truthful answer from her in my circumstances. I could have blown up the decade+ long friendship and *still* not have been sure (worse outcome than not disclosing)
Against Reason 1: With no truthful answer, it would still not be ‘settled’. With a truthful answer, my *knowledge* of the reality could be settled, but with that knowledge, the *LE* still would not be settled. If I found out it was mutual, that could ramp up problems with co-existing with her, not giving in to temptation, and hijacking my brain ever further. If I found out it wasn’t mutual, it could well have deteriorated the friendship from both sides – hard to recover after that. We can see stories on LwL of how both these routes can turn out. She would also lose respect for me if I disclosed, as she is quite strong about people treating their SO’s with respect, and she would (rightly) see a disclosure as me not doing that. Every single one of these is again a worse outcome, to my mind, than not disclosing.
Disclosing would have been a fully selfish decision. LO had nothing to gain from it. We both had a lot to lose.
I think what I was trying to say is that when drowning in it, many limerents (especially men is your hunch?) just can’t see this situation with the clarity that you can once your head comes a little further above the water line.
In summary – disclosure when with an SO is selfish and with no good outcome. But it is really, really hard to see when in the strongest bit of limerence.
I have only seen one really good counter-argument against this, and it’s what Marcia has said. If I decide at some future point that I must go NC, then it is a kinder thing to disclose as an explanation for NC, than to just ghost her. But if I choose that route, it HAS to be followed by complete NC for a long time period – nothing less. As you know, I don’t currently have this option (see also lots of other different but similar examples like ABCD, Speedwagon, LiS, Mila at one point).
These days I am far more in favour of the sort of approaches to it that you and I have discussed at length – a more gentle ‘letting it sit and run its course’, some purposeful action, and gradually turn the tap off. This is all progressing – with some bumps for sure, but going OK overall.
Thanks for letting me dialogue it out with you – it is very useful! The journey through would be so much harder if I hadn’t found LwL (I am pretty sure I would have disclosed many months ago without LwL).
—
(me) “It might help you to visualise it with the two letters at either end of a line and then work out where you think you are on the line – more than believing that you necessarily need to be at either pole.”
(you) “Have no idea what you’re talking about here”.
OK let’s take “thinking” vs “feeling” (T or F) as an example. An MBTI result on some tests will just tell you if you are a T or F. But it is not that binary. So maybe my father is 90% T, 10% F, maybe my SO is 30% T and 70% F – I am probably 55% T and 45% F. And so on. So they are tendencies, different in each person, not that we’re simply one way or the other. I was wondering if it would help you feel any better about Myers Briggs to see it that way. No problem if not, obviously! I never knew it started with Jung but he later abandoned it, though I had never looked that closely into it.
I’ll respond to some of your other comments as soon as I can. Enjoy the rest of your short break!
@LaR
Thank you for your validation that I sound doing better than before. Actually, I’ve never felt this much relaxed, focused and confident in my whole life, not exaggerating, which confirms the healing of my cptsd. I even grow more tender feelings for Mother, considering how much anger at her I vented in this place! I try to find more time (tutoring 6 evenings/afternoon week) to cook and have dinner with her, and buy home-improving stuff she never asked for.
Of course, I still miss a great deal of MFF, which could be sensed through some poems posted. There is no communication, I have no idea how he is doing in his new job and life.
“I might need you to explain this question more, to understand what you’re really asking. Could you put an ‘ego type’ reason and a ‘subconscious type’ reason into different words so I can know fully what you’re asking? “
There is a big difference between disclosure and need to know LO’s feelings (for reciprocation). I disclosed without asking MFF’s feelings, which was just a farewell “gift”.
I’m more focus on psychology behind the INTENSE urge I’ve read here that he/she wants to know so badly about LO’s “true” feelings even many years have passed and LE has long gone.
1. “Ego” type could be: I am so attractive (yet subconsciously insure in someways) and have so much feelings for her/him, I have to know whether she has sensed my feelings and be moved and “loved” me back. If she/he acknowledges Yes, then my “whole being”/worth feels validated.
2. Subconscious urge: like the urge to physically pair-bond, not exactly coming from head or reasoning, but from somewhere in “soul”/core.
3. LE illusion/bubble like Sir Marcus had: the other side must have had what I feel so wonderfully, and I must find out.
I understand your reasoning for your strong wish to disclose, but they sound a bit too moralistically rational to me. Strong love or limerence, in my experiences, falls outside of reasoning or “wisdom”.
Francis Bacon “it is impossible to love and be wise”
Bob Dylan: “You can never be wise and be in love at the same time.”
During my LE, there were some times I wanted to know and wished other side could confess that he felt the same as I did, so I could have “settled” sleeps. Other times, I like a certain amount of uncertainty — keep my curiosity alive and exploration going. I dislike finale/end of anything. I’m afraid of our ultimate death.
If I ever wondered whether MFF ever had some feelings for me, it’s really helpful to see your reasoning why he’d never tell me no matter what. My mindset is the master of my wellbeing, not anyone else’s possible thoughts/feelings or behaviors in the past or now. I’m so much better in choosing what I think nowadays, then feelings follow thoughts. I finally understand what Father once said, “I can choose my thoughts.” (When we discussed about aging, illness, and death and why he was in a jolly mood.)
“I have only seen one really good counter-argument against this, and it’s what Marcia has said. If I decide at some future point that I must go NC, then it is a kinder thing to disclose as an explanation for NC, than to just ghost her. But if I choose that route, it HAS to be followed by complete NC for a long time period – nothing less.”
It sounds reasonable, but I never saw in my COO, where limerents just hold their secret feeling — unrequited love, never directly disclose because it was futile or extremely painful (I was surprised by several ones years later). Well in my latest LE, NC just dropped by Fate. I did not have to disclose at all, but chose to do so as a means to thank MFF (whether he wanted to know was even irrelevant) and as a closure to myself. I’m still learning to be grateful to positive sides of every coin in my life, and like Father and Granny, to be generous in giving first (no more than three times), firmly walking away, and then forgiving (not forgetting) internally.
“These days I am far more in favour of the sort of approaches to it that you and I have discussed at length – a more gentle ‘letting it sit and run its course’, some purposeful action, and gradually turn the tap off. This is all progressing – with some bumps for sure, but going OK overall.”
Glad to see you’re continuing in this direction. I can’t imagine how hard it is (never been in your shoe). Through my meditation, I know positively that mindfully watching at anything, be they intrusive thoughts, sadness, or anger… that thing would lessen or back up.
—
“(me) “It might help you to visualise it with the two letters at either end of a line and then work out where you think you are on the line – more than believing that you necessarily need to be at either pole.”
(you) “Have no idea what you’re talking about here”.
Now, I got it! Thank you for your patiently explanations! I think I’m a smooth swinger among MBTI boxes, at daily or weekly rate, depending on situations. Trained by COO, I’m a chameleon, just for survival. 😊
Have a great weekend!
If You Go into the Woods You Will Find It Has a Technology
Heather Christle
This tree has a small LED display
It is glowing and it can show you words
and it can show you pictures and it can melt
from one choice to another and you are looking at it
and it wants you to share the message
but it can’t see that you are the only one around
and that everyone else is hibernating
which you love You are so happy and alone
with the red and yellow lights It’s a nice day
to be in nature and to read up on the very bland ideas
this tree has about how to live This tree says
grow stronger and this tree says fireworks effect
This tree is the saddest prophet in history
but you don’t tell it that You are trying to show it respect
which gets tiresome but then it flashes
a snake at you It’s a kind of LED tree hybrid joke
and you could just kiss it for trying For failing
But it can’t see you and it starts to cry
******
🤭
Hi Snow,
Happy Saturday when it reaches you. I’ve had quite a week and my brain is wired awake early to start my weekend. Nothing bad happened, just about the most full on week I can remember at work, a lot of tea and coffee to keep me going through, and quite a big cycle of emotions about my LE. I am getting better at just sitting with all this, but this week has felt a bit turbulent.
“There is a big difference between disclosure and need to know LO’s feelings (for reciprocation). I disclosed without asking MFF’s feelings, which was just a farewell “gift”.”
OK. If I’d disclosed, I would have tried hard to establish what she felt in return. That would have been part of it for me. I now think there is a good possibility that she wouldn’t have told me (one way or the other) how she felt, though. She rightly does not want to destabilise me and my SO. In your case, I have massive respect that you told MFF, not in any expectation of a response, but just to ‘tie up the parcel neatly’. At a deep level I think these MFFs DESERVE to know how they made us feel. You gave him that without expectations, which was brave and good.
I think my LO deserves to know it one day too. Who wouldn’t feel a bit flattered that someone found them attractive, even if they didn’t reciprocate? It would give her a big ego boost – which would benefit her (not that self-confident a person below surface). But I also recognise I am not in a situation where I can say anything now. It would leave too much mess in its wake to navigate, all other things being equal.
My last LE (referred here as LO3) happened quite early in my relationship with SO. It was shorter and more intense than this one. Maybe more ‘strong crush’ than LE, but it doesn’t matter. It had a fixed end point where we knew she was leaving town after a spell working together. The day before she moved away, at her leaving drinks, a mutual disclosure happened. It was done in the spirit of “we are both attached and we know it isn’t going anywhere”. It was just nice to release the feelings, stop pretending and part / then go NC (forever, as it turns out) with a nice knowledge that we had mutual attraction. The way LO4 (current one) and I ‘vibe’ feels much the same as it did with LO3. I strongly suspect it is mutual but it HAS to remain unsaid for now. This is where I need all the Stoicism, mindfulness and wisdom I can muster. If I put all my LOs and my SO together, I really now know ‘my type’ and can see future red flags for LEs from a mile off.
“There is no communication, I have no idea how he is doing in his new job and life.”
No obligation at all to answer these questions – but to think about for you – would you like to know / do you need to know? What are the pros and cons of knowing? Would it help or hinder your recovery to contact him? Would it feel appropriate to contact him? Do you wonder why he doesn’t contact you?
Coming back to my ‘disclose and depart’ LO3, it just has NEVER felt like the right thing to contact her since. I occasionally wonder where she is and how she’s doing. I have no doubt if I met her again we’d be friends (maybe I could transfer limerence and give my long suffering LO4 a break 😂😂 – for clarity this is a joke, I have zero real wish for a replacement LO). Anyway, I digress. With LO3 I kind of liked the way the parcel had been neatly tied up, and any contact would disturb that, so I never did, and nor did she.
“I understand your reasoning for your strong wish to disclose, but they sound a bit too moralistically rational to me.”
OK. Why is this I wonder? I could blame NT brain for that (overthinks and underfeels). Also it is important to know for context that I have a pretty moral upbringing. Not in a religious sense but in a sense of what traditional Western parents instil in their children. I really appreciate the way you try and encourage me and other LwL posters to think beyond our morals to what is going on under them – your perspectve and questions add a lot of value to me and others. But even with that, there will always be a Western moral gloss on explanations I give. And the moral gloss is real for me where it comes to big decisions like whether to disclose.
Now I’ve said that, I will try and make the effort to dig below the surface into emotions. It is most like reason 2 on your list and very unlike reason 1 and 3 – it isnt egotistical or delusional in my case. Does this help the hunches you are developing about male v female limerence differences? Would be interested to know what you’re thinking there!
So on your point 2 and my case – when I feel that deeply for someone on a kind of primal level, I want them to know, and I want them to return my feelings. I think, at the core, this is basic pair bonding instinct kicking in – kind of a raw, primitive level of it. (The moral bit could easily come back in and I could rehash all the reasons I can’t disclose and don’t want to know – but you know all that already and that’s not what you asked me).
I also think there is unfinished business from when I was younger. I was too shy when younger to tell women my feelings. I had two LOs and many more crushes from my teens and 20s where that stopped me pursuing potentially good relationships. I ended up more in relationships with women who pursued me. These were not always the best for me as a result, though there were better exceptions. After the worst one, I resolved to be different and just take more chances on disclosing my feelings in future. With both my SO and with LO3, that’s exactly what I did. It worked with SO and we got together – result at first time of trying! It worked with LO3 in the sense I explained above of a ‘neat ending’. Since the resolution to just be honest with feelings, LO4 is the first one where I can’t do it. So it feels frustrating. I hit a point more than a year ago where I was confident enough in the vibe with LO that, if I was single, I would have disclosed and taken a punt on where it went . I would probably even have been prepared to lose the friendship then, as part of a risk-reward calculation (no longer, as things stand). I would then say it was 8 months from that point to the ‘peak and turn’ of the LE. Those were the toughest months. The last 4 have seen steady improvement and a belief that I can move past it.
So you see, I could use my now (in midlife, and learned through experience) preferred methods of disclosure with SO (successfully), and with LO3 (to get neat and warm closure for us both). But with SO and with LO3 the situation and context allowed it – with LO4 it didn’t and doesn’t.
I think my experiences of limerence, especially with this LO, are quite unlike a majority of LwL posters. There is as much or more good as there is difficulty with having LO in my life as a friend.
—-
There is much in your long reply that I still haven’t addressed, but will, especially about my all time favourite LwL discussion point and one of yours, ‘the glimmer’. There is no hurry here in ghost-land – I would rather think properly about replies than rush. But please know I haven’t forgotten the other message.
I hope you have good soul-nourishing things planned for your weekend!
Oh Snow, this might amuse you after your recent LwL dreams.
I dreamed I wrote a post here where instead of writing ‘LO’ and ‘SO’, I used their real names. I think this is along the lines of the dreams many people report where they are naked (and ‘exposed’) in public. Maybe I am talking too much here and need to go quiet!
I find it interesting when people report dreams of their LOs here. Usually they say the LO is somehow unobtainable in the dream. I have that type of dream, but other ones where she can be ‘obtained’ and sometimes is.
@LaR
About the dreams, I believe that whatever you have thought, wished or imagined about, even just for a second (un)intentionally, it would turn up in your dreams later in a subtle or blatant images…. They strongly demonstrate what we (dis) like and go against our strong will/concerns (as I said to ABCD)
I don’t remember I ever had dreams in which either xLO or myself naked (always clothes on even lying together chatting with a foot distance), or physically touched ( except one “holding up” like the poster of “Gone with Wind”), or publicly exposed (no one else knew anything about my LE). Never obtained his body, but his mind/“pure”affection/care. There were always PG-related narratives/shorts with one or two line chat, laughs, detailed settings/images, light, and other people (colleagues, his family, my parents, etc).
Through dreams we also understand a “true” nature of our LE wish, IMO. In the most of my dreams related to my LE, MFF was a savior arriving in time to “rescue” me — “damsel in stress”, situationally, as if he just magically knew what I needed precisely in that moment, which served as a healing process at the Unconscious level, more powerful than rationally talking about any traumas in the therapist’s room. I was so touched in those dreams and then deeply grateful in waking hours, which helped make the final decision to disclose on the day! (the envelope was prepared for over 8 months).
Please tell me, what LTR stands for? It has become a critical word to understand some of posts.
In some group therapy, there is “reenactment” method, when cptsd patient were “rescued” by other clients or therapist in the “reenactment” plays. I never tried but watched some; it looks “phony” to my strong logical eyes (I can’t be hypnotized) , but it is claimed effective to some cptsd victims.
While in a dream/Unconscious, everything was so “Real” to the dreamer’s mind/psyche, so truly healing!
Snow,
LTR = Long Term Relationship. I am not sure if it is a British English phrase that is not used so much in American English? Someone can tell us I expect…
It is nowhere near as funny as MFF or FINLLF!
Then LTL — Long Term Limerence! 😀 (longer than 4 years)
What is FINLFF? It’s a bit too long to remember.
Based on the Rule of Three, anything of 3 is just right amount…
I made a typo.
FINLLTF (2 x rule of 3)
Friend I’d no longer like to ‘fondle’
Blame this term on Trifles for it was her creation (I think) 😂
Yes, blame me for FINLLTF 😂 (rule of 3 + 1 extra L in the middle, so easy to remember!) I’m glad someone took it on board and/or appreciates my sense of humor!
No, wait, it’s FINLLF (because it’s modeled off MILF) – and 2 x rule of 3.
Oh yeah …
I forgot that MILF meant ‘Mate I Love Fondling’. Silly me!
All the humour here, from you and others, is well meant and should be taken like that. A lot of us are processing dark and challenging stuff, often for extended times. Finding some ‘light’ among it where we can is very welcome, to this reader at least.
Snow,
I understood all you said about dreams. They are very powerful. I wish I could remember them more. If I have any good limerence dreams, I might share them here. They are more enjoyable than painful, but it varies.
There is just one bit I’d like to know what you mean by more – this: “They (dreams) strongly demonstrate what we (dis) like and go against our strong will/concerns, as I said to ABCD”. When you talked to ABCD I thought you meant the going against relating to *conscious* thoughts. How do you mean by *dreams* going *against* our will/concerns, for example?
@LaR
This is my old post about Jung’s unconscious/conscious theory in order to keep one’s psychological homeostasis.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/coffeehouse-the-big-barriers-to-limerence-recovery/#comment-47551
What I wrote to ABCD is that if one wishes/wills (with the conscious mind) something very strongly, the Unconscious (dreams) will deliver something opposite of those wishes/wills to balance them out for the sake of mental homeostasis. Otherwise, one could go psychotic.
For example, during my LE —
1. I was very anxious and worried that xLO could give me that indifferent/cold look (spiritually “abandoning” me) or even tell his confidant at work about my monologues. Then, my dreams showed me repeatedly the opposite: he acted as a “savior” to my “dire” dream reality.
2. I wanted to spend some quality, alone time with him (even delivered by my dead father) , but my last dream had his SO and daughter suddenly appeared, reminding me he’s not available — in reality, I hate to intrude into any family’s affairs/time together.
3. When I fancied that he’d be always warm/affectionate to me in the office, then my dream showed me that he purposefully avoided me in a campus with Irish/British castle…. Thus, a bucked of cold water on my head warning — don’t be too wishful of good possibilities, check the reality!
From Stoic points of view: one should/needs always mentally prepare for the possible worst (one’s specific fears) to come. If it does come, there would be no surprise and anyone can take anticipated pains; if it does not come, then appreciate and enjoy a bonus of life or a mercy of Fate.
I’ve been observing and practicing this stuff off and on since 2023 summer, it helps me build up mental muscles against any kind of “You-Know-Who” in any walk of life… ☺️
@Trifles,
When I yelled at you, that was your xLO; and now you’re talking about your tLO (transference LO), right? Like LaR, I got confused, too. Are you getting LOs in the speed of 350km/hour? ☺️
ps. The Unconscious warns and prepares us for the possible worst (our most feared), in addition to oppose what I have wished/willed.
The next morning after the castle dream, I deliberately walked passing MFF’s office, and he’s warm and friendly as usual. I had such a relief/appreciation for the bonus of my small life!
To me, expecting the worst (not just nothing) while making my best efforts has been my spiritual practices since the summer of 2023, it really gradually worked, although not immediately.
Looking at my reality in a whole-life-size canvas, MFF and every ghost here have been assistants/“teachers”, intended or unintended. 😁
Pretty sure Long Term Relationship is an American term, too.
I had an LO (my secondary boss–I had two at the time) who I sort of disclosed to….I found the e-mail I wrote him after he quit, and it shocked me looking at it 20 years later, just how much I revealed. He didn’t get the e-mail because they shut it down already, but I printed it out and gave it to him the day he packed up his stuff and left. He made a delighted laugh and stuck it in his back pocket and then we had a tender little farewell. Hugged, and he put up his hand for a high-five, then grabbed my hand and held it for a second. We only saw each other once more after that, for a lunch that he’d owed me for a long time. We were very flirtatious, but parted as friends. We kept in touch for a little while, but then my baby came and he had some mental health issues, so we lost touch. But it keeps the LE as a fond memory.
@SL,
I like to your “positive” LE story, it’s very touching to me.
Those who can extract limited joy or positivity out of seemingly very daunting experiences are wise. Life is so short, it’s harmful to ourselves to dwell on past negative experiences, which might or might not be our own faults.
I’m very content with my progress with my Mother, my (un)reasonable irritation upon her presence (I vented it a lot here) seems to have all gone, even without my notice. To think it rationally, why would I keep holding a lifetime grudges against her past behaviors, if she has not continued her old patterns of treating me⁉️ If I believe everyone is changing and evolving for better, why couldn’t I trust that’s the same with her⁉️
Also, I know I’m stronger in body and mind nowadays, totally parenting myself and her (appearing almost like a fragile girl); treating her harshly in my attitudes, no matter with what reasoning, is kind of “bullying”. It’s very against my Buddhistic practices.
Your post makes me think/feel all these…. 😊
@LaR,
You challenge my thinking everyday! I really appreciate it!
I totally understand your reasons why you could not disclose, believe me, my “inhuman” COO’s ideology/morality was “purer” than most religions/ideologies in the West or Middle East. (It becomes a slightly better/more open in recently years, but still very harsh in terms of romantic relationship). Sex as well as love used to be thought equally “dirty/immoral” even among singletons; there is no EA, so “romantic love”=“physical sex”. If a girl/woman ever openly expresses her love/sex needs/desires, she’s considered a slut, even today! It’s a taboo topic! But extra-martial affairs have never stopped under the table since its history began thousands years ago, particularly rampant among men with power or money nowadays. Proudly I have been a rebel, so I’d rather to break all morality codes than crawling into any cave to live like a nun! 🧘♀️
“At a deep level I think these MFFs DESERVE to know how they made us feel.”
I agree! 🤝 Especially when we have benefited from interacting with them, in big or small ways. In my case, I never dreamt that my cptsd would be aggravated by LE and then subsequently treated and healed, primarily by my own efforts with MFF’s indirect “cooperation” in the same LE — two sides of the same coin. Even MFF were a murder to someone else, I’ll still thank him for what he has incidentally done to me. I call it a gratitude to Fate, who brought them to our path. I focused on matters themselves, not personality traits of the conductors.
“I think my LO deserves to know it one day too. Who wouldn’t feel a bit flattered that someone found them attractive, even if they didn’t reciprocate? It would give her a big ego boost – which would benefit her (not that self-confident a person below surface).”
I agree with you here, if she has truly benefited you in some ways. Your disclosure would not be empty flattery, but sincere gratitude and substantial compliments! Reciprocating your feeling or not should NOT be an affecting elements of your true evaluation of her as a whole person (with her flaws). But do it ONLY when it’s for her sake but NOT your own (indirectly it’s for your spiritual growth, IMO) — not expecting anything IN RETURN (also when it does not affect your connection with SO).
I think you did beautifully with your LO#3, that’s an ideal way to depart. I would do the same. 🌹
Now, I have a challenging question for you: if your unattached LO#4 disclose to you now, how are you going to respond❓❓
“would you like to know / do you need to know? What are the pros and cons of knowing? Would it help or hinder your recovery to contact him? Would it feel appropriate to contact him? Do you wonder why he doesn’t contact you?”
Since there is no pre-friendship, nowadays I see my MFF as a E.T. from the Mars. He suddenly landed in my path for 7 years, unintentionally helped treating my past cptsd, and then was suddenly taken away from my path. Do I need to know how a E.T. lives in the Mars? No, I can guess. Do I want to know? It’d be nice to know, but what does differences it would make in my reality on the Earth❓
Even when he was in my reality, I could not care less about his regular “salt & pepper” stuff (I was always interested in big topics and creativity). He knew I was simply bored with a Tofu-lists of his ordinary life (directly complained to his face), not different from anyone else’s, which was all he could respond in most written responses (for reasons you could well guess, especially now after I disclosed.) That’s why later in my LE I preferred his silence, which left a big space for my mind to imagine and “gave him” my wished responses (who was there to refute my magical thinking — like writing a play script❓ ) My mind put the idealized Phantom (my Self) in that space wearing his vague face, then I monologued to that Phantom, not the realistic MFF. Then, my dreams came along to help fabricate more powerful/helpful plots….
I’m very curious that in your eyes, based on my LwL ramblings, what is “hinderance” in my “recovery” from this LE? Contacting him as a “friend” or E.T.? In the past, my monologue helped me tremendously, so now would it be unhelpful in my “new” life? How would we know unless it occurs? I’m scratching my own head now… Don’t worry about being frank with me, you know I can take anything. 😊
“It is most like reason 2 on your list and very unlike reason 1 and 3 – it isn’t egotistical or delusional in my case. Does this help the hunches you are developing about male v female limerence differences? Would be interested to know what you’re thinking there!”
Yes, that’s what I wished to hear, so I would not judge such an urge by any moral stand. Just Watched Fisher’s two talks DrL posted. I like her theory and explanations that our love/LE cravings/addictions are all biology related, without them, life on earth would be soooooooo boring! The urge to get wishful LE reciprocation, based on LwL, is evidently stronger in males than females, because we are biologically wired differently. I did have the same wish, but not so strong — a definitive answer to my curiosity would kill this “cat”. It sounds like sometimes I even preferred to continue the chasing dance/sport for as long as possible, even at the price of feeling anxiety and fear.
“So on your point 2 and my case – when I feel that deeply for someone on a kind of primal level, I want them to know, and I want them to return my feelings. I think, at the core, this is basic pair bonding instinct kicking in – kind of a raw, primitive level of it.”
It was the same with me: to want MFF to know my deeply puzzling attraction to him (never before to an attached/married man, with my unbroken oath to myself), not consciously known as primitive pair-bonding in my ignorance before coming to LwL. Not only I wanted him to return my feelings, but like Sir Marcus, I felt he had the similar feelings for me (in the middle of LE, he chased me for a casual “friendship” for 8 months in writing notes). But in the end, I saw it would make no tangible difference whether he ever had feelings for me or not, E.T had to return his to own home! So I just packed his deserved “gift” for the farewell. (Disclosure with limerence info. package was also an indirect way to explain to him why I could not accept his PA offer — without EA, an authentic limerent can’t accept PA, no matter what…)
Of course, my ego and heart wish the E.T. still remembers me.
I need to work more tonight, so rushed this quite disorganized response. Thank you for your understandings in your post to Mila.
Snow,
“Now, I have a challenging question for you: if your unattached LO#4 disclose to you now, how are you going to respond❓❓”
Yeah, it is a challenging question! I would tell her that the feelings are mutual, whatever the pros and cons of doing that. Trying to lie about that wouldn’t be fair or a good idea. I would not offer her either a PA or the prospect of me leaving SO for her. I would talk to her about all the reasons why she is valuable to me as a friend (an MFF!) and am almost certain she’d do the same back. I would say that I wanted to find a way to continue to make that friendship work, despite what we’d just said, and then look at the practicalities of how. I have no idea if it could *actually* work in those circumstances. I’d offer a period of greater distance and then another chat to re-evaluate, if and only if that’s what she needed.
I think the difficulty here would be to deliver the part about not offering to leave SO for her, with complete closure. This is because in that situation part of me would want to leave the door ajar, not slam it shut. I know that sounds selfish, but “this can NEVER be” would be a hard message to deliver unless I believe it *100%* myself. But all LwL wisdom about disclosures tells us that only the firm ‘never’ response works. The ‘not now’ fuels limerence and sends people careering down the EA and sometimes PA route. So that’s the really tricky bit.
I don’t think I will have to face this situation for several reasons. One might be because it really is all platonic to LO. I veer hugely between thinking that’s all it is, and feeling it is mutual. I just don’t know – it is a 50/50. On top of that as reasons not to disclose, we have any of the work overlap, her respect for me and SO, her not liking rejection, and the benefits we have of friendship without this complication. So it is really unlikely that she’d disclose – if indeed, there is even anything to disclose.
—
“I’m very curious that in your eyes, based on my LwL ramblings, what is “hinderance” in my “recovery” from this LE? Contacting him as a “friend” or E.T.?”
I haven’t seen anything you’ve said that concerns me. I see you reporting huge progress since your disclosure, and I ‘feel’ that too. Eg you say the CPTSD is healed / almost healed. You seem in a good creative place and also reconciled to events in your mind – stable in yourself.
I have understood more from your last reply about the whole ET/Mars analogy, and for a while I have ‘got’ bits of your LE like the ‘surrogate father’ bit and what you say about the Phantom. I have to confess I didn’t understand in the past what you meant about the Phantom, but I do now. I didn’t know until this message that he’d offered you a PA, so that threw me a bit of a loop. So I guess I am putting various facts together.
The other bit I don’t know is when you disclosed, did you have any talk with him about what that meant for the the future (or not) of any friendship? Did it mean NC/LC? Or nothing like that / not known / not agreed? Maybe it was like my own LO3 example – “here’s the gift, now let’s leave it there”. But I don’t have these facts to know.
I feel like you have done a majority of your healing through and (more so) since that experience of disclosing. If you haven’t had contact since, it might feel easier to just leave it in the past. If that’s your instinct I’d say go with it.
To get to the ‘hinderance’ question – it is based purely on my curiousity, nothing you said. Let me flip it round. Say I decide to end my current LE with NC (if I could – this is hypothetical) and heal without her around. Say I manage to do a big amount of healing. This would not stop me wondering where LO is, how she’s doing, etc. I would have a strong urge to make contact down the line to find out. I might resist it or I might cave in and reinitaite contact. Imagining my hypothetical scenario, if I did make contact again I think it could re-open old doors and set my recovery back – eg I could become too reliant on LO’s texts again and make myself anxious about when I’d get replies, why I hadn’t got replies etc. There are numerous examples on LwL back catalogue where this has happened to limerents after NC.
Writing this out it feels like not reinstigating contact would be better (like with my LO3 – for sure I wonder how she is doing, even now, but I’d rather just have the fond memories and not poke that hornet’s nest).
All LEs and disclosures vary, and I think it is because I don’t quite know how yours ended (apart from disclosure, intellectual conversations about limerence, and him moving away) that I asked those questions to you. If you don’t want to put too much else out there on here, no worries. I just wondered if you and he set any “terms and conditions”. Or, if not, why you think the terms and conditions have played out how they have (NC?), rather than as contact with him as ET or as friend.
If anything still isn’t clear, do please ask!
@LaR
You’re fast and prolific writer, calmly composing caring, rational, and multifaceted messages over a short of time span daily! Now I began to wonder what’s your profession! (Just kidding) Whatever you do, I benefit from your sounding and cool “ramblings”, thanks! 🙏
“I don’t think I will have to face this situation for several reasons.”
Ok, just never say never! Anything is possible in life, out of blue or low-heat cooker/steamer. So even with just 0.1% of possibility, one needs to mentally prepare for “the Empire” suddenly to “strike”… Why on earth I use analogy all the time⁉️ Right, I don’t have a big reservoir of English words and expressions; thus tend to use images and existing narratives I assume every ghost here would know about or could figure out (evidently not).
“I haven’t seen anything you’ve said that concerns me. “
Truthfully, I don’t know what I should be concerned about, the life seems to be getting routine/boring again, but unlike the post LEs in the past, I’m not depressed — credit to LwL for sure. I never could have dreamt to be at the current mental stated, in terms of how much cptsd had gone. I don’t remember I ever felt this much at ease even during my marriage at its peak time when I was still longing for something unknown (remembered my puzzled mind/sentiments on Christmas or New Year mornings).
“I have understood more from your last reply about the whole ET/Mars analogy, and for a while I have ‘got’ bits of your LE like the ‘surrogate father’ bit and what you say about the Phantom.”
I would describe my whole LE in two sentences: a ET suddenly landed in my path, served as a surrogate father & the Phantom (right after Father’s death), aggravated my cptsd and subsequently assisted me to heal it, and then he suddenly had to leave. There were mutual understandings, misleadings, and misunderstandings… but it ended with the desired and deserved disclosure on my part and a friendly, an indirect, permanent goodbye.
“The other bit I don’t know is when you disclosed, did you have any talk with him about what that meant for the the future (or not) of any friendship? Did it mean NC/LC? Or nothing like that / not known / not agreed? “
Right after handing him the envolope, described, and discussed about what limerence is — a helpless obsession/addiction without particularly focus on PA, and often triggered by one’s past traumas, etc… I asked whether we’re friends or want to remain “friends”. He nodded his head. Then I ask how he thinks it could be carried out in long distance. He said he would not want to give any promises and then unable to keep them (previously, I heavily charged him for not keeping his words, and he called me a “woman of words” — my COO’s training.). By then, I knew he’s basically saying NO further association or contacts. Then no more talk about it. In the past, he (a Sensor) never said No to me in any specific matters but just carried out NOs in small or big actions. As a 50% Stoic, I never demanded or complained, what’s the use?
“If you haven’t had contact since, it might feel easier to just leave it in the past. If that’s your instinct I’d say go with it.”
Mutual texting was never our thing, he was a habitual, very careful tofu-lister of few words (with a SO, you can understand it well). My LE was reinforced through the physical/work interactions (I had to pass his office to get to the lounge for coffee or heat up my lunch), we both sometimes got charged by even brief chitchats or merely presence of each other. My eyes talked or revealed more than my superficial words. In return, I could easily sense his mood or sentiments about me or anyone else, almost never wrong. He sometimes subtly/indirectly responded (or gave advice) to what I had monologued in my email/texts mights or days before. He once said that our connection, “things between us” was very special….
So his perpetual short or boring texts rarely much affected me, while his in-person chitchats did. It was my own vivid imagination, triggered cptsd confession and substantial monologues to his silent ears made HUGE differences in my psyche/mind/dreams (only recognized much later). I didn’t see any limerent ghost here doing/conducting this sort of one-man’s show, which worked for my lifetimeunmet needs: no one in my childhood/youth were ever there listening to anything I needed/wanted to say, without judgment but total acceptance. One can even say that I sized the opportunity and “used” his gentle, kind tolerance, while giving him verbal and presence validations most of the time (he clearly had insecurity issues, reflected in his soft, slippering eyes, quick self-defensive words, and repeated efforts, in words and deeds, to stop me from going NC/LC, I failed 6-7 times. I mentioned before, I could see a “boy” in his eyes)
I vaguely remembered I had a phantom/bosom friend back then talking in my head, and I “lived” and felt with characters in my books. When I cried for their fictional death and felt low for days, my parents laughed and mocked at me. But this extremely smart and sensitive E.T. encouraged me to say whatever and whenever I wished, after he figured out my true needs (not regular LE’s primary needs). He never judged my childish ramblings but empathized my pains and complaints through in-person chitchats, occasionally telling me about his growing up with his parents, brother and sister. My glimmer for his personality was not off mark, except his black lies about his secret pet limerent…. If not for this black spot I incidentally discovered, I can’t tell you now what I could have possibly done… probably broke my longtime kept oath to myself… LE could drive anyone out of sounding/tough mind.
I expressed here before that I wished to keep/build a friendship post my LE (nothing negative had occurred, and we cared about each other as “friends”), but I also clearly knew both ET MFF and myself are similar in that, “out of sight, out of mind.” It’s a natural law: no more feeding/watering, every plant dies! The more I resisted the death of LE that had given my creative energy, the more it slipped away naturally, due to the total physical NC. I can’t comprehend deeply how some otehrs’ long-distance LE or even friendship could keep going. I need to SENSE people and their physical energy. (Contrived words could bring some, but the way less powerful than biological energy, then words evaporate into air in time).
I still have my own creative and imaginative Phantom living in and conversing with me inside, which sometimes energizes my trivial life, continues healing my cptsd, brings over warmth and peace… Without a new LO/SO in sight, the Phantom still wears the E.T’s face, nothing I can do about it…. After watching Fisher’s talks on TED, I feel more at peace with this phenomenon.
So does it matter if I know E.T’s whereabouts or not? My own mindset matters most in my life! I’m ending the topics related to E.T. here, exactly 4 mouths after my disclosure and our last farewell 👋….
But to borrow your words, I will try to keep You “on the hook” here… 🤝 ☺️
Snow,
I just thought I’d tie up a few bows from this message, as I think the bit below has run its course – I now really understand what you have told me about ET and also your wish to close down further talk about him.
“COO tongue is highly logical and precise (not verbose), making one automatically to think in a more rational way”
I reckon there is an attempt to move all languages, English included, in these directions eventually. It’s unfortunate but I get why it happens, without agreeing with it at all. Long live those long colourful German compound nouns I mentioned before!
“It’s strictly one-way traffic — my glimmer single handily select its own target — an “innocent and ignorant” man in his “natural/ordinary state” — being himself.”
I just want to check a fact about this, and with no need to know anything about the reason why (I have heard you about that – I am only interested that I understand the fact itself correctly). If it was the same person (potential LO) and he noticed you first, you mean the glimmer would never occur for you towards that person? Whereas if you ‘notice’ him – same person – first, it could occur?
“There is little J in me, how boring it is!”
I want less ‘J’ in me. I have been working on it for years! (probably the more I try to push it, the more my ‘J’ subconscious rebels?)
“Is there any letter R as Rebellious against all 16 MBTI boxes and any kind of authoritative or tyrannical tongues?”
Now there’s an idea and a half.
@LaR
“I just want to check a fact about this, and with no need to know anything about the reason why (I have heard you about that – I am only interested that I understand the fact itself correctly). If it was the same person (potential LO) and he noticed you first, you mean the glimmer would never occur for you towards that person? Whereas if you ‘notice’ him – same person – first, it could occur?”
Yes, that was what I said/meant!
Why was that way? I didn’t know/understand, it just never happened. I tried to cultivate Glimmer for some handsome or talented guys who seemed to have qualities I have wished for, but glimmer just would not come, despite heavenly “physical-bonding.”
I never chased unavailable guys, either. Within 5 seconds, I hardly had time to notice anything else besides their eyes, also I had/have my oath. I even fell into a big crush for 6-8 month for a gorgeous gay man, until he brought his boyfriend around me. Then, my crush/LE instantly stopped. I really could cut off entangled hemps with a sharp, fast 🗡️.
I wonder if my glimmer would follow a leading glimmer in the future, after I’ve learned so much from LwL.
“I want less ‘J’ in me. I have been working on it for years! (probably the more I try to push it, the more my ‘J’ subconscious rebels?)”
Yeah, just watch it when it comes; its strength will weaken. Think that life is really too short for every individual, and treat it as an ongoing adventure with a certain amount of realistic, safe measurement. In mind, let imagination fly, like when you are reading an absorbing book. To me, spiritual/mental/creative activities is more fulfilling than many materialistic and tangible fun.
Hi all,
sorry for updating again.
My Ex LO texted me that my company asked him to come on an overseas business trip next year, and I think he‘s going to make it happen, he really wants to go.
Me, my first reaction was dread, even though it might have been me to put that in motion. He told me a few weeks ago that he really wanted to come and I felt obliged to pass that on, but I told the responsible person that I don’t think it’s a good idea, we should take a real candidate for the vacant job, not the one who left (which is objectively true). But it seems they haven’t found someone else who is free for such a long time.
In my current mood I felt an instantaneous aversion to it, I was surprised by my strong gut reaction. He‘s supposed to still be my friend. I realized I really don’t want him to come.
A couple of hours later I think it’s still more than half a year until then and everything will have dialed way down if I handle it right, and then I might be content or glad he‘ll come.
Just now I‘m not because I’m in my negative phase, kicking him out of my system.
I guess I will reduce contact with renewed effort now. At the moment I‘m not 100 % sure if I can let him get close again without waking limerence, but I need to find this balance or indifference, otherwise it‘ll be very exhausting since he will expect to spend a lot of time with me, reduced contact or not (you can call him either very loyal/faithful or just inflexible), and I cannot reject him the whole time, that would be aggressive and tiring. And by that time I really want to be able to conduct a normal, not too intense friendship with him.
I think, for me not to feel this repulsion towards him anymore I really have to reduce contact until then. I cannot help letting him visit soon and working with him in December, but the texting really has to stop.
I didn’t react extremely nicely on his text, and let the texting die down, but while I’m typing here, he just sent something again, some link to music – I‘m afraid while I want to reduce with renewed force, he seems to be spurned by this possible trip to get more intense contact again..
I‘m getting a bit tired by it all.
I feel there’s a lot of patience needed to get out of this LE with friendship intact.
This sounds exhausting Mila.
Can I suggest that you try to totally put next year out of your mind. Try to live in the moment for the next few hours and days. You are a busy lady, with a busy life. The ex-LO can wait for replies. Texting makes many people anxious, even with people that they want to hear from. It’s an uncertainty generator. If you can get away from it for a few hours over the weekend (switch off notificationsnor something), it will give you a rest from all of this. The texting is too much right now, and he will survive if therenis nothing for a day or two.
Hi Bewitched,
I agree that it’s the best just to stop the interaction and have a break from it.
The thing is that it causes me more anxiety to have unanswered questions sitting on my phone. I’m like that, they keep sitting in the back of my mind too as unfinished business.
I think it’s my doing and responsibility because of the darned limerence that he got trained to see me as someone to text daily etc, and my responsibility to dial it back in a not too unkind manner. I cannot just stop texting and go NC completely. That surely would activate questions, hostility, whatever, which would cause me much more anxiety, and also it would be immature in my books.
I’ll take your advice partly and just delay answering more and more without thinking about it too much, neither about the texting nor about the future. I guess by the time the long business trip comes it won’t bother me that much anymore. Yesterday I was just suddenly floored by the prospect of him clinging to me for over two weeks after all the good work I’ve put in.
Thanks for your input Bewitched! I am a busy lady is my mantra now:)
I meant “unanswered texts”, sorry, they are not necessarily questions
Mila and Trifles,
I’m moving this here to coffeehouse to ease scrolling and reduce going off the topic.
@Mila,
I’m sorry you’re currently having a tough time getting the barometer to line up in the right place for how your friendship with XLO should look. I hope ‘ranting’ it out (and no offence meant, see my choice of LwL username) here on LwL is helping you. I think it is a phase you will work through to get there. Be kind to yourself, put your own feelings and instincts first, and you’ll get there. If you have to make allowances for neurodiversity then do (and that’s nice), but not so much as to compromise your own principles and needs. I hope you arrive at something that works with him. The way he and your workplace cling to each other sounds like it adds to the problem / uncertainty. It also sounds a bit odd – whenever I have left a job, I have left lock stock and barrel.
“I think you and your LO might be more on one level about what true talking/contact means.”
Yes. We are in tune with what the other is thinking. I believe we understand exactly what we can and can’t do or be to each other within reasonable boundaries, without ever having discussed it. It’s quite rare to reach that point. I believe it works and makes my LE more pleasant than unpleasant. But it is also rocket fuel for limbo. I’m working on how to change it gently and have got past the worst bit of that now. While I don’t like that you’re having difficulties around XLO, your story does encourage me that limerents can move further ‘to the other side’ (to the full realistic view of their LO with flaws) than I have currently. I am comfortable that I’m on that journey, that it will only happen at its own – probably slow – pace, that there will be setbacks, but that it will fade out eventually.
@Trifles
“Tell me to do something and I will push back. (Ha, I’m a great employee!) Try to manipulate me, I will push back even harder – and lose respect for you”
You go, NTP, go!!! Sometimes it is eerie how accurately you respond to my predictions of how you’ll answer my questions. Clarification – I’m *not* saying you are predictable! I reckon you totally get why I said it.
Joking apart, I think on the ‘validation when not asked’ point, it isn’t part of any particular personality type, but a basic human condition, to want free will and choice over how to act. Nobody wants to pat anyone on the head when the person is pushing them up against a wall. Or – “you can’t negotiate with a tiger when it has your head in its mouth” (Life of Pi).
“If you want to get rid of your NTP LO (or anyone with a clear sense of self – or strong ego, if you prefer), find another one and rub her face in it. 😉”
I *totally* know you are joking here and anyone else reading it should have no doubt either. Absolutely no chance of a transfer in the LaR world! But more seriously if I do get to a point where I want to fade the LE right out, it is easier to do it by talking about my SO more with her and showing her importance in my life. But that somehow feels a bit mean too. We don’t talk about SO all that much but when we do, I’m not negative about her. However we solve this, I respect LO a lot and will always value her as a friend. so that’s always at the front of my mind with how I relate to her. Part of me hopes I can be proved wrong as “just another deluded limerent” about this ‘friendship’ thang. But at my core I don’t believe it’s the case for now. I’ve chalked up ten years with this woman as a friend (most of those not limerent) so it makes it less likely to change.
“So in a way I think in the beginning he saw me as providing him insight of what his SO would eventually evolve into(!).”
Not quite on the page with you yet on this point. You mean you’ve been through similar so he can draw on your experience of exiting a LTR as a woman? But if you are at the ‘fun and flirty texts’ stage with him, surely you are showing him your shiny side, where the XSO would be showing him the other side at a guess?
Lim-a-rant,
„I hope ‘ranting’ it out (and no offence meant, see my choice of LwL username) here on LwL is helping you.“
Yes, it definitely helps, it sorts my own head, I apologize for cluttering LwL but writing some feelings down in English, meaning I have to process them into another language, helps me a lot somehow.
„ If you have to make allowances for neurodiversity then do (and that’s nice), but not so much as to compromise your own principles and needs.“
That’s exactly the approach I try to get to.
„ The way he and your workplace cling to each other sounds like it adds to the problem / uncertainty. It also sounds a bit odd – whenever I have left a job, I have left lock stock and barrel.“
For my workplace, they haven’t replaced him yet and he‘s a convenient stopgap until they find someone since he is excellent at his job, so that’s understandable.
But I find it odd from his side too. I think it’s part of his neurodivergent side- he still cannot let go, after all that time he took to make a decision, after moving etc. I see now, combined with other experiences with him, the whole scope of his inability for change, the positive side being his faithfulness and reliability.
There are always people leaving, young colleagues who got a better position somewhere else or for family, and they always go with a heavy heart and cannot let go immediately. But they know they have to at some point, and I get the feeling, he doesn’t. He still refuses to say goodbye, which one can find sweet, but I‘m at the moment more astonished at his mulishness.
If I would summarize what I know from your LE, it sounds on the one hand like a warm and mutual relationship with limerence lurking but being quite under control, at least from her side?
But on the other hand it reminds me a tiny bit of Lost in Space‘s situation, where both got so used to rely on each other emotionally that it’s painful but hard to entangle oneself from it.
It might be important not to make her your Nr1 person too much, to actively take care thar you have other people you can trust and talk to.
Thanks Mila,
Don’t worry about ‘cluttering’ – I do it too.
That makes sense about his character and the relationship with being reluctant to let go – of the job, but also perhaps of you as ‘wife 2’.
Interesting you compared my LE to LiS. He and his LO have had mutual disclosure and it sounds like he has hot/cold cycles to deal with – I have that a bit, but more minor and mainly invented or amplified by my brain. But I see some commonalities too as well as these differences. It is reasonably in control with no real threat to it going South or North. But like you say, disentangling becomes hard.
Thanks for the point about not relying on her as my m
number one. My SO is and always has been No.1. I also keep a good sized circle of close friends and make a point not to neglect them in favour of LO. One of them now knows the situation with LO (called me out quite toughly this spring), but has got better since then at discussing it with me and trying to be understanding. It helps to have one real life person to discuss it with. Do you have that?
Your question about how I would react if I were to lose my “special” status really made me think. I guess the defining attribute of our friendship is that we are confidantes and therefore special. If it were to be reduced to anything less, it would not really give me what I need. With other friends I might be satisfied with less but for some reason I need this special relationship right now. There might be something more behind my answer or there might not. But thank you, that is another point to keep in mind. Do you feel the same about your LO or would ‘less’ be enough?
And that’s probably true: if you start talking more about your SO to LO, she will likely be a little hurt, but she would probably also step back. You have a weapon there so be careful when using it.
“You mean you’ve been through similar so he can draw on your experience of exiting a LTR as a woman?”
No, not about exiting per se. I’m just eerily similar to his SO (physically and personality-wise – he clearly has a type…that is probably completely wrong for him! I choose to be flattered that he chose someone so similar to me, yet I feel bad that my unevolved 1.0 version is putting him through so much hell… 🙈 Ok, now this is starting to sound like a movie plot! But if it’s anything like ‘Substance’ is supposed to be like, I won’t go see it. Have I digressed far enough? 😉) And I’ve had similar “crises” as her (she’s somewhat younger!). So I could give him a view of what might be going on in her mind. I’ve often defended her assumed thought patterns and actions (not cheating and acting like a brat about it though! The 1.0 has some bugs).
“But if you are at the ‘fun and flirty’ texts, surely you are showing him your shiny side, where the XSO would be showing him the other side at a guess?”
Now I’m not sure what this was in relation to. But yes, he got through his initial crisis with me helping as much as I could (not flirting!). And now we are pretty much at our previous relationship which was friendly and flirty. As a result of this shift, I’m trying not to ‘meddle’ too much regarding his SO any more (not that I was meddling before).
Trifles,
The fun and flirty / shiny vs other side bit about his SO was a bit of a misunderstanding on my part. I forgot temporarily that you were a confidante to him before you got into the more fun, flirty part – I think I mixed him up in my head with your previous LO. I couldn’t figure how he might glimpse how a future picture with his XSO looked, from fun banter with you. But you have answered it now and I understand.
“You have a weapon there so be careful when using it”
Thank you – and yeah I know that. I can’t see I’d ever want a weapon with her. I have an awful lot of respect for her. She could write the manual on how to behave correctly (still maintain a great friendship but have appropriate boundaries and respect my SO) in these circumstances we’ve had. I just don’t see how that could change enough for me to ever want to hurt her. I think if the LE became too painful I could just use a little more conversation about SO to ease back myself and get her to ease back, if I had to. I also haven’t ruled out a “full disclosure” conversation one day (see what I wrote to Snow earlier). It would probably go alright between us, but I think it is only fair if what then follows is total and long NC. And some work crossover, although not huge, makes that impossible for now.
“Do you feel the same about your LO or would ‘less’ be enough?”
Oh wow, that’s a tough one! It is good that we are feeding each other questions to think about. Short answer – No.
Longer answer part 1 – if she got another ‘confidante’ stronger than me, then I’d be quite gutted and probably distance myself. I think it is very unlikely though, as she’s not the easiest to really get to know (to confidante level) – took me years – and there is nobody else on the horizon male-confidante wise. I think that status is pretty safe. But – answer part 2 – of course she could get herself another SO (she broke up with last one not long before the LE started) and this is something I’ll likely face one day. I’ve thought a lot about that. I wouldn’t begrudge her it – how could I? I want her to be happy and if she found an SO to make her happy, I’d really want to feel glad for her – like Adam on here has said that he was when that happened. It could take a while to reach that point. I worry I’d be scrutinising the SO and constantly convincing myself “he’s not worthy”, whether or not he actually was. I have mixed feelings about it as I do really want her to be happy, she needs someone to get to that point, and I can’t offer that even if it was something she wanted. I suspect if she got an SO that I would back off and be more distant, and let her get on with it. I don’t know how it would affect my limerence – whether it would intensify it or fade it out.
I also don’t want the comfort of her having me around to get in the way of her meeting other guys, but I don’t think it does too much at the minute. We socialise within bigger groups where there are sometimes opportunities to meet people and I have had to learn to watch it happening with a poker-face at times. When I’m the one with the barriers though, it is only fair to act like that and not get all jealous.
LaR, “…of course she could get herself another SO (she broke up with last one not long before the LE started)”
And there you have it! The reason for the glimmer… (Sorry, I don’t know if you’ve explained your glimmer before.) There might have been just the slightest shift in her energy (not necessarily related to you) that in turn shifted your energy toward her, and then hers, etc. Marcia explained some of this to me when I wondered why a lot of men are suddenly flirting with me. Apparently I’m subconsciously putting out signals. (Normally I don’t like getting attention so I can seem pretty closed off. But these “approaching midlife” hormones…).
You also talked about LO dreams. While there’s nothing as boring as other people’s dreams, I will discuss mine (shortly!). During my LE I only had one dream about LO, and he was unattainable in it. Meanwhile I’ve had a few dreams featuring my MFF/TO, which I think is due to him texting me late at night and thus being one of the last thoughts of the day. (It’s probably good that I told him to lay off the late night texts!) Anyway, he’s always been pretty attainable in the dreams – I see that as proof that there is no wild chemistry/tension/etc. Or else, like Mila noted, it’s just a ‘stable’ point in limerence when there is no uncertainty.
There was 100% a shift in her ‘energy’ towards me – but good point that it needn’t have been *because of* me. It happened after a small gap, not straight after her breakup. But it moved goalposts. It seemed more directed at me than anyone else but that could well be the good ole’ addled limerent brain talking.
My glimmer was like 2 glimmers ten years apart with all the ‘platonic’ in between. I think you’ll have seen me discuss it before. I know the exact moment of both. For the second, I had ‘stuff going on’ (with SO but also other stuff which is the bit she knew) that made me vulnerable. She cared and showed interest and empathy. Always has, but at that vulnerable point it was like a button was pushed and some of the careful boundaries I had had for so long just broke at the foundations.
I am trying to put some of these back up now – not all at once. Had an incident this week where I put one up (unexpectedly to her, i think). That was partly where my ‘would you push back to secure status?’ question came from. She pushed back against it, I held firm (not in a mean way), and as yet I don’t feel bad about it. Though I expect some unpleasant rumination on it to occur in the next couple of days if my usual timelines of things apply.
LaR, thanks for explaining your glimmer, I have a lousy memory.
Something I have in common with your LO is that it’s not easy for me to find a confidante, so I would prefer to hold on to the one I have.
You bring up a valid concern about your LO finding a new SO. And I dare say, if the situation is as you describe, and the feelings are mutual, then you might be holding her back without meaning to. This despite her possibly flirting with others. As always, these are just my well-meaning observations based on what I hear and how I would (re)act in similar situations. So take with a grain of salt if needed.
Snow, ha, I’m not calling my MFF/TO (transferee) an LO until I start having obsessive thoughts, that’s a clear dividing line – hopefully never!
Slightly related, I came across something really striking. I was digging around in my old emails (from a dozen or so years ago) to my TO. And I realized that LO1, TO and xSO all overlapped (not physically!). Basically it took both TO (his advice and support long-distance) and xSO to get over LO1! No wonder I reached out to TO when things were getting tough with LO2!
I don’t know if I would call it transferring to xSO back in the day, but I definitely needed him to get over yet another disappointment (the final one!) with LO1. So it does take a village… 😆 Even though I’ve “only” had two LO’s, I’m starting to wonder: am I a serial limerent who is still on basically the same cycle of transference… 😯 (No judgments needed, it was a long time ago.)
And LaR, here’s hoping you don’t get those pangs of rumination, but rather feel proud of yourself for sticking to your principles.
Trifles, thanks. The rumination hasn’t kicked in yet, so 🤞.
Maybe there is something of destiny their with TO. Maybe he is destined to always play that role of helping you get over things if and when needed. Better keep him ‘on the hook’!
“I have a lousy memory”
Both my SO and LO have the memories of an elephant. It is an added challenge to my ill-advised balancing act – ‘what have I said to who, because it is for damn certain they have remembered it?’
Ha, no, not ‘destined’! I’m T, remember? I knew very well (instinctively, N?) who to ask for support – even though this time I didn’t get the support when I needed it, but months later, and at that point I didn’t need much support. – That’s fair, we hadn’t been in contact for a long time. I’m ok with that. And I’ve kept everything above-board so we know where we stand.
Also, I know you don’t mean anything bad by ‘keeping him on the hook’, but I’ll elaborate anyway. 😉 He’s been much more on the receiving end of help lately. And of course I’ve supported him previously as well. So the scales balance, as they do in a friendship.
I’m glad you knew I was joking with ‘on the hook’. I think I get your humour quite well (you can by all means tell me if I am wrong), and I am also NT (though with a ‘sprinkling’ of F 🍨). I’ll never throw anything ‘humourous’ your way that I think would offend, so if I do it is an honest mistake.
Your point about the scales balancing is really good. That’s how we can know a good friendship when we see it. That’s the bottom line on why I want to protect my friendship with my LO despite everything else – I have rarely had such a reciprocal friendship that is equal give and take in every measure (oh look, there I go again …).
Actually – ‘on the hook’ was an ill thought out choice of words, so I do apologise for it.
Apology accepted and much appreciated! 🙏Some here don’t take very well to men being taken advantage of – and for good reason! – so I just wanted to clear that up. I will also try my best to take on board the various opinions on here (when they are said with good intent) even when I don’t like them, so no need to censor yourself.
At first I thought LwL was a place I could barge in and out of whenever I needed to vent, or support. But recent discussions have made me see that it’s much more than that: it’s a community with all the emotions and conflicts that come along with building a community of individuals. So it might be more difficult to navigate but that makes it that much stronger and more valuable!
Yes, I agree with all that – community building comes with its own challenges, especially with limerents often and naturally being a sensitive bunch, but you are right we are stronger for it!
Thanks for accepting my apology and saying ‘no need to self censor’ but I do realise my words in this case (not the real sentiment behind them, but the word choice) were a flippant error. I think you’d have ‘got’ my intent if you knew me and if it was a private comment, but of course neither of those things applies in this public arena of ghosts.
So that the rest of the LwL world is in no doubt what I meant behind my unfortunate use of ‘on the hook’, really in more literal words I meant to communicate this … that I felt Trifles should keep her TO as a friend. Both of them have clearly benefitted each other through shared experiences and being able to support each other at different points in their lives. This means he is a valuable person for her to have around, and could continue to be, and these versions of ‘our people’ are scarce and hard to find. Anything that is more flirtatious between them seems from what Trifles has told us, to be with mutual agreement, light of heart and with agreed barriers (not meeting physically, not late night texts etc). This to my eye says they are not using each other or harming themselves or others around them. So there is no harm and a healthy dollop of good from them keeping each other in their lives, all things being equal.
LaR, I think I’m in love with you 🤗 (Yes, yes, I will get in line…). No one has worked so hard to defend my – questionable – honor, and to keep the peace. 😉😅 Seriously, I can see why you are the peacemaker at your place of work! You deserve a medal for how hard you work to understand each of us.
I also have some warm feelings for Snow (and her humility and goodwill) at the moment – I really am going soft!
One more point here: DrL must be a 100% Stoic and 100% Buddhistic combined, daring to set up and maintain a community with a bunch of “maddening” limerents running or ranting around “naked” 👽 and “cloaked”….👻
Yet such a faceless, ghostly ground seems to soothe and help some aching souls, while worsening some other limerence pains… *sigh* 😔
******
Row, row, row our boats
Down the Glimmer stream
Gently, stormily, merrily, forgivingly
Life is but a series of limerence.
❄️ 🐦🔥
☺️
Trifles, I really do promise you will be the first to know if I change my mind about that long-held ‘i’m not prepared to transfer’ stance.
(We are probably in sailing close to getting in trouble with DrL here! But for avoidance of doubt in anyone reading, this is just a bit of silly fun between two people who have been helping each other out quite a lot on here lately).
Seriously though thanks for acknowledging my contribution in this place. There are too many people here to try and really get to know everyone’s situation, and where I make the extra effort with any posters, it is reciprocal (just like we said about friendships earlier). I do hate to see anything flare among the people here I chat to most (do I have rescue fantasy issues?!). Everyone means well in their different ways.
Sorry to barge in- as much as I’m thankful for Lim-a-Rant for explaining and peacemaking, Snow and me settled it ourselves because Snow explained it herself quite well in her posts. I just don’t want her to think that I didn’t understand her explanation and only yours, it’s not that I don’t want to take the credit from you🙏🏻
@Mila
Your words/post to me just inspired my little parody of “rowing your boat”. 🛶
As you can see, everyone could serve as a muse to another when least intended, it all depends on a listener’s toned or“biased” ears. Thank you!
😊
@Snow,
Row, row, row our boats
Down the Glimmer stream
Gently, stormily, merrily, forgivingly
Life is but a series of terrible, limerent dreams..
❄️ 🐦
😂😂😂
@MJ,
Thank you for the contribution, I’d take the word “terrible” out, it’s not terrible to everyone, I benefited from it, and you’re still bathing in its lingering warmth….
Row, row, row our boats
Down the Glimmer stream
Gently, stormily, merrily, forgivingly
Life is but a series of limerent dreams.
❄️ 🐦🔥
Can you add musical notes to it and play on your piano? If you can, I may learn from you (can musical notes be put up here?) how to play it with my clumsy fingers.
Mila, if you’re referring to my comments about LaR’s peacemaking (sorry, I get lost here often, you may have referred to someone else’s comment) – I was mainly only commenting on how LaR handled his faux pas with word choice when talking with me. I may have thrown in some extra flattery just to ‘keep him on the hook’. 😂
Then I separately saw what Snow was doing in you two’s discussion and commended her for that. After my comment, I saw that you had also replied to Snow – hats off to you too, sincerely.
And what are all these people doing here when this is supposed to be a private moment between me and LaR?? 😉 (I’m kidding, you’re all welcome to join!)
Oh thank God you said that Mila, I thought for a minute my head wasn’t going to fit back through the door on my way out.
I am glad we all seem to be laughing about being on hooks now. It has been an up and weekend day here!
Anyway, it is Trifles’ round, so what’s everyone drinking?
type – ‘up and down weekend’ (I started drinking something stronger than coffee already, evidently)
Trifles,
Having a fat dream to whisperingly flirt with LaR alone here? You think other (lady) ghosts would let you enjoy the privilege alone? 🙄 😁
Thanks for your compliments about me in your “sideway” comments (please no direct-ways!). I think I sometimes took for granted that every smart ghost in this space could all understand our Eastern Taos (ways) in dealing with life’s obstacles in general; however, it seems that a regular Western lens could not quite 👁️ comprehend some Eastern Taos and thus judge some “eccentric” Taos as phony. These “exotic” Taos rarely exhibits among usually more ego-centric Westerners, to my Eastern lens. I am lucky to have acquired both lens.
I think it’s very beneficial to keep your long-distance friendship, as long as it does not slip into another LE. Meanwhile please scan more broadly in your reality for a realistic, fleshy/substantial LO/SO candidate who can whisper to your actual pillows. 🛏️
🫂
“Can you add musical notes to it and play on your piano? If you can, I may learn from you (can musical notes be put up here?) how to play it with my clumsy fingers.”
@Snow,
Oh yes, I’m bathing in the lingering warmth of limerence. So well-put.
I wish I could post the notes here for you..
🎹🎵🎵
I can actually play that. In a variety of different keys. It’s very simple.
Reminds me of this clip from this great movie..
https://youtube.com/shorts/OtRPFc_HLn4?si=PWRE9IDMgCOIhYBS
Nightfall in the Tropics
Rubén Darío
translated from the Spanish by Thomas Walsh
There is twilight grey and gloomy
Where the sea its velvet trails;
Out across the heavens roomy
Draw the veils.
Bitter and sonorous rises
The complaint from out the deeps,
And the wave the wind surprises
Weeps.
Viols there amid the gloaming
Hail the sun that dies,
And the white spray in its foaming
“Miserere” sighs.
Harmony the heavens embraces,
And the breeze is lifting free
To the chanting of the races
Of the sea.
Clarions of horizons calling
Strike a symphony most rare,
As if mountain voices calling
Vibrate there.
As though dread, unseen, were walking,
As though awesome echoes bore
On the distant breeze’s quaking
The lion’s roar.
****
A limerent lion is roaring❓
Until very recently, I hadn’t been very active on this forum for a couple of years, so it could be that this topic has already been covered, but is anyone familiar with the concept of “oneitis”? If so, how does it differ from limerence? The definition I found online is “an unrealistic romantic obsession with another person.” Sounds like limerence to me. Honestly, this seems very common. I’m one of those people who believes limerence is more common than is generally believed. Otherwise, why is so much music, art and literature devoted to romantic obsession?
Is it all part of a big continuum, with a minor crush on one end and full-blown limerence on the other? Could oneitis be closer to limerence on the spectrum but not quite there? Even as a limerent, I’m capable of having crushes that aren’t all-consuming. For example, I never became limerent for my “glimmery friend” (despite my acknowledgement that this woman gives me a glimmer of limerence, she never became my LO). I have some theories about why that is, but I believe it’s because she is married, she has extreme political views, she is a bit of a stoner and I never needed any validation from her because her flirtation with me was quite shameless and left nothing to the imagination. I like her as a friend, and she is very attractive, but there is no way I would ever consider a serious relationship with this woman or even an extramarital fling. While it was happening, I did wonder if her interest was genuine (she did have at least one affair). I sometimes wondered if she was possibly just having fun, stroking her own ego or even mocking me a bit, but I believe she did have a crush on me and may still be having one. I certainly had a mild crush on her and enjoyed the attention, but it was never debilitating or all-consuming. She never became my LO.
LO #2’s flirtatious behaviour was much more subtle. It ended very early on in our friendship. She never gave me much validation—at least not in the last couple of years. LO #3 stood next to me for a long time at a show one time. I knew she was a friend-of-a-friend, but I didn’t know her or talk to her, despite it seeming like she wanted me to talk to her that time back in April last year. I was intrigued but not even close to limerent for her until I met her a few times. There were some signs she was intrigued by me too, but no real validation if I’m completely honest. I wonder if limerence often happens because we’re searching for validation. “Does this person like me too or is it all in my head?”
It’s interesting that my glimmery friend is friends with all of my LOs, although I don’t think she is that close to LO #3 yet. It’s a small world because I knew who my glimmery friend was 1.5 years before I ever met her simply because I saw a ton of pictures on the bar’s Facebook page where I met LO #1. I’ve already mentioned the weird coincidence about LO #2 and LO #3 dating the same guy. There are more coincidences too, but I don’t want to make it too easy for people who know me to identify me or my LOs. In my wildest dreams, I never expected to meet this woman or befriend her—and I certainly never expected her to flirt with me!
I’m really struggling today. I’m pretty sure I will see my LO again, but this feels like it did 4.5 years ago when I was limerent for LO#1. She was a stranger and I was in no contact mode by then after I unfriended her. It was also COVID and I was going through hell. The bleakness of it all was too much to bear. I wouldn’t wish those months on my worst enemy. I thought I saw LO #3 at a supermarket on Sunday (it probably wasn’t her) and I saw footage on Facebook of a show she may have been at, and I was trying to tell whether a woman’s voice in the video was hers. I’m starting to see her face in every crowd, and I’m not liking that feeling.
Lockdowns are over, I have a lot more friends now, I know what I want to do with my marriage, and this LE is much less bleak. LO #3 is in my life, and I’m pretty confident she likes me on some level (probably just as a human being, but it’s something). I will most likely see her again (leaving aside the question of whether I should go no contact). But I can’t get past the fact that I can’t even be her Facebook friend. Does she think I’m a philanderer or is she afraid of drama with my wife? Already, my wife’s spidey sense is telling her something is up with me, and she has guessed it’s all about LO #3, although I have denied both. I have mentioned LO #3’s name in passing as someone we now hang out with. She’s started fixating on her even though I’ve also mentioned LO #3’s best friend as another new person in our group (somehow it’s never about her). Part of me wants to tell my wife everything and tell her that these aren’t crushes. They’re obsessions really, and I want to tell her I’m going to keep getting them until we end our marriage. She needs a reality check because she just flatly refuses to accept that our marriage is dead. The problem is I could see her confronting LO #3 like she threatened to do with LO #1. The woman is totally innocent, and I can’t have that, but I sometimes wish she’d confront LO #2 because she’s a tough lady who won’t take any shit.
I guess my point with the “oneitis” was that it is much harder to get over one person when you’re in a bad marriage you can’t get out of. It’s not like I can ask her out, take the rejection and then move on by dating other women. It’s much harder not to adopt a scarcity mindset when you can’t do very much to get over that one person. It’s especially hard when you can see this is the type of person you would love to be with who checks all of the right boxes.
I’m having such a hard time right now. I’m not suicidal. I don’t want to die, but this isn’t living either. I hate my marriage, family life and job. I see no real way out. I’m sick of waiting. My wife would gladly live like this the rest of her life. All she cares about is money and a middle class lifestyle. Every time I mention separation and divorce , she leads with that. There is so much more to life. I tried calling my EAP because I am in the depths of despair right now. I wanted to talk to someone today, but no one is available until next week. When will this nightmare end? A friend of mine was married to a boring and miserable woman, but he just had to tell her once he wanted a divorce, and now he has a great life and is marrying a fantastic lady. Why can’t I have that?
Hi VL,
Sorry to see you going through a tough time. You are clearly on a slippery slope with multiple related LOs (same friend group).
Barriers (like being married) are rocket fuel to limerence. So is being unhappy. So is middle age (it seems). You are unlikely to break free from limerence without fixing the triggers and ageing backwards is not an option, which leaves the other two things that you are actually in control of (even though it feels like you are not). I think seeing a counsellor through EAP at work sounds like a splendid plan. It’s a starting point, right? Going NC with LO#3 is really not going to fix the underlying issue as you seem a bit stuck, my friend. An EAP can maybe help you with that. I wish that you find the right counsellor as this may not just be about limerence, but also, why did that set-in in your life? Sending a virtual hug.
Hi Vicarious,
Sorry it is so tough for you today.
Ultimately, isn’t it your decision as much as your wife’s if you want the marriage to end? If you are that checked out from it mentally, and it is holding you back from living, maybe it is time to put yourself first? (By the way, I don’t take exiting a marriage at all lightly, it’s just you say you have been unhappy in it for such a long time). If needs be and the means of exiting it are very complicated, can you get any professional help to get yourself out?
The LO’s seem to be a distraction from / clouded by this main part. What you say about LO3 not wanting to accept the friend request because of not wanting to get caught up in it sounds pretty likely.
Hang in there and find distractions at times too.
Your situation sounds awful, Vicarious Limerent. I can’t imagine living like that. I’m glad that you are not suicidal and that you are connecting with friends.
You mentioned that you kind of want to be honest with your wife about your limerence. What is holding you back? It sounds like she won’t consent to a divorce no matter what happens, so maybe you could be honest with her. I really don’t know. You know the situation better than I do. A surprising byproduct of my disclosure to my SO is that it brought us closer. We had a lot of difficult, vulnerable discussions that made us feel close to each other. I can’t predict what the outcome of your disclosure would be.
Just in case you do have thoughts of hurting yourself, I want to share a resource with you. Call 988 for someone to talk to. They are wonderful! I don’t know if 988 is available in your area, but it might be worth looking into.
We also have a crisis hotline in my area that is staffed by volunteers. There might be something like that in your area.
Lastly, when I call the mental health hotline on the back of my insurance card, the person who answers is always therapeutic. I don’t know if they are therapists, but they definitely listen, validate and help me troubleshoot when I need help.
I’m sorry that you didn’t have someone to talk to today. I wish I could have sat across from you at a coffee shop and just listened.
Hi VC,
sorry to hear you are feeling down. For me it sounds as if the top priority should be to solve the marriage situation. Push the divorce, contact lawyers? I wouldn’t talk to her about limerence if she‘s bound to take it out on your LO, the consequences are too much out of control then.
Hello again, Vicarious Limerent. Mila is right about not disclosing to your SO. The way you described your SO is very different than my SO. My husband wants to make me happy and genuinely cares about my wellbeing. It sounds like your wife isn’t like my husband so instead of addressing the problem with open mindedness, she might use the information as a weapon against you or your LOs. Mila is right that disclosure is probably not a good idea.
Lovisa,
I believe that your SO is one in a million!
By the way, I had to laugh about your suggestion to weed a garden area infested with Black Widows for healing limerence. That should cure it for sure!
Thanks @Lim-a-rant and Bewitched. Your responses mean a lot to me.
Just for clarification, LO #1 isn’t part of the same friend group, but she is good friends with my glimmery friend. I’m glad someone else recognizes that NC isn’t a good solution for me. My friends are my lifeline right now, and I can’t lose that. I also think there is a faint hope of something with LO #3 in the future once my marriage ends and I can sort myself out, but she isn’t going to entertain the thought of being my paramour or be seen as a home wrecker, and I wouldn’t even want that. I would also be disappointed in her if I thought she would.
I definitely had a midlife crisis, and I view limerence as a symptom rather than the disease in my case. The actual disease was my unsatisfying, sexless marriage. It would be good to talk to an EAP counsellor, although I have done that in the past and it didn’t help all that much. I have suggested couples counselling to my wife so that maybe she can see our marriage is over (my friends think it would be a waste of time). The EAP does offer that, and my hope is she would be able to see that our marriage is over.
I have a legal background and understand that she doesn’t have to agree to a divorce in order for it to happen, but in this jurisdiction, there generally needs to be a separation for one year before a divorce can be granted. An in-house separation is possible, but it would be logistically very difficult with my wife, who wouldn’t accept the strict requirements that apply in order for that to happen. I can petition a court to order a sale of the house, but that requires legal action and money, which is in short supply. Nevertheless, I may just have to go that route because my wife is completely delusional. She still hasn’t accepted the end of the marriage even after 3 1/2 years of me telling her clearly and unequivocally that I want out and will never change my mind.
Thanks @Mila and Lovisa. I wasn’t seriously considering disclosure to my wife, but I am searching for some ways to drive it home to her that I’m serious about separation and divorce. I ended up disclosing to her about LO #1 and I won’t be making that mistake again! I would never want her to confront LO #3. She is a really nice lady and completely innocent. She is trying to do the right thing, and she does not need the drama. My wife found out about my feelings for LO #2 when she snooped around on my computer (I had searched up tips for handling jealousy when your crush is dating someone else). She correctly guessed who my crush was at the time, but I have moved on. My wife doesn’t believe me that I no longer have feelings for LO #2. LO #2 knows all about how I felt about her (I tried to go NC but she didn’t want me to). We’re still very good friends, and my wife is very jealous of her. I sometimes wish she would confront LO #2 because she’s a tough lady and she would let my wife have it if she ever tried that. But I certainly do want to shield LO #3. The only reason I even told my wife about her is because my wife asks multiple times before a night out who is going out. I don’t have the energy to lie most times, so I mention LO #3’s name and her best friend’s name. She certainly has her suspicions about LO #3, but I won’t admit to any feelings for her, although I did admit she’s pretty. She has come up in her “people you may know” in Facebook, so she can see her anyway.
Hi Vicarious,
No problem. It sounds like a real situation you’re in and the rules around divorce in your area a sticking point. Would moving out of the house yourself make any difference to that (is separation easier if you just got yourself somewhere short term) or does money completely rule that out/is it just ‘not the done thing’ where you are? It sounds like you’ll have little chance of convincing her to agree to end it, so you might just have to push your own agenda more. It doesn’t seem right that you have to remain trapped if you’ve been that sure for that many years that it’s over.
Agree with your thought that your friends are a lifeline for you and that you should hold onto them. Hopefully you can establish a decent holding pattern with your LO3 where you can get on without expectations of more (for now, at least). I have had similar experiences where a former LO would not accept a Facebook request but continued to act warmly towards me in real life. I never forced the issue and eventually decided that I really didn’t care if we were friends on Facebook or not. Short version: that bit might not mean as much as it feels to you that it does at the moment.
Good luck with getting the EAP counselling sorted.
Thanks again @Lim-a-rant. Unfortunately, house prices and rents are very expensive here. There is barely enough money for one household, never mind two. There is also the problem of what to do with my daughter. Things are still very strained between her and my wife. My daughter at times has told me that she will never forgive me if I don’t get her out of this toxic and abusive environment with my wife. Now, things have changed a little bit for the better since my daughter started college, but they’re still not very good between the two of them. There is fault on both sides, but the problem is my wife is the responsible adult and she can be quite abusive towards my daughter. My daughter wants out too.
In my case, it isn’t just a situation where we are in a dead marriage, but my wife is bossy, controlling manipulative, and downright abusive towards me as well. She wants to keep tabs on me constantly. She criticizes my every move and it’s just incredibly unpleasant living with her in many ways. Sure, things are pleasant and cordial probably the majority of the time, but that minority of the time is absolute intolerable. I’m not perfect either and I’m sure there’s fault on both sides, but I don’t see this as being purely about fault or blame. It just is what it is.
I’m not sure when I will next see my LO. It probably will be at least a few weeks. The little break might actually be a good thing. She will be hanging out with my friends in a few weeks time, but I won’t be able to make it that evening. I do want to see how things transpire with her after she rejected my Facebook friend request. I had thought of basically shunning her, but I don’t think that makes a whole lot of sense. If I still like her and think there is even a slight chance, there could be something with her in the future. Once my situation changes, I would be cutting off my nose to spite my face if I decided to ignore her or be rude to her. I think I’m just going to continue on as before and be friendly with her without being overly friendly or trying to hit on her or anything like that. I’ll be sure to keep it light but still very subtly let her know that I do like her. She should know that she’s safe with me and that I’m not really going to come on strongly with her either. My friend’s advice to me was just to go out and have fun and not overthink it, and I think he’s right.
Hi VC,
in case of a divorce you would have to find a solution to the house situation too, no? Otherwise a divorce would be just on paper, you living on and on under the same roof?
The priority is maybe finding a way to follow the separation rule, so that you can finally move things forward. Does some of your friend have a spare room or something? But maybe don‘t do anything without advice from a lawyer first, I have actually no experience and live in another country.
It’s just that your situation sounds so bad for you that I get the impression that it’s urgent to get out. There must be a way!
That must take priority over any LO rumination, would be my assessment.
I would take the advice of your friend not to overthink this LO situation. People handle their Facebook/Instagram very differently, my SO hardly ever checks his friend requests or answers messages, while I’m quite diligent in checking and answering. Also, a friend of mine accepted a friend request of mine several years later, us being friends in real life for the whole time.
And maybe she‘s just not resolved yet, what kind of guy you are, maybe she doesn’t know you enough and is wary that you might stalk her or something? In that case it would be the worst possible reaction to go cold on her, because it would look as if you are really unduly invested in her and take this Facebook request inappropriately serious (which you do;) as any limerent would do! but it might scare her).
Maybe there’s something on her profile she doesn’t like you to see- there are many, many possibilities. Don’t put too much weight on it!
I noticed some weird sentence fragments above. It was a result of me dictating my response by voice. I thought I had corrected the issues, but I guess not! LOL.
Thanks @Mila. We definitely would have to sell the house and use the proceeds to buy places for each of us. My wife doesn’t think she’ll ever be able to afford a place on her own, but I think she’s wrong. House prices are very expensive here, but I think there are options. Also, I would be completely willing to be fair to her to ensure that she’s taken care of financially. But that is her main worry. I think she is more worried about the financial aspect than worried about losing me.
You and others are absolutely right about the Facebook request. It feels like a rejection, especially after things went so well the last time I saw her it seems a little perplexing, but I did know in advance that she is a very private person and that she isn’t Facebook friends with a whole lot of people. I also know that she isn’t that active on Facebook, although I know she probably does quite a bit on messenger. I do also have a strange feeling. She has some kind of secret. There’s something about this lady, even though she’s fantastic, that tells me there is something she is trying to hide from people and I’m not sure what it is. Even if there is some dark secret from her past or something like that, I don’t think it would turn me off. I really have no wish to stalk this woman. I know that she lives just around the corner from my friend, but I have no wish to know exactly where. Sure I’ve googled her and looked her up on Facebook, but that’s it. There’s a limit. I would never want to cause her to feel unsafe or uncomfortable in my presence. Next time I see her, I’m gonna carry on as before, but possibly just allow her a little bit of an out so that she has a little bit more of an opportunity to talk to other people. Should she choose to do so. I also think she is just simply wary about getting too close to a married man who is showing her definite signs of interest. I really can’t blame her. I’m well aware that there are men out there who are married who try to have affairs with women and lie to them by telling them that they’re going to leave their wives for them. That isn’t the case with me, but how is she supposed to know that? She still doesn’t really know me all that well even though I’m friends with quite a few of her friends.
I think oneitis is a bit of a generic pop-psych term that I can see. For me the defining point about Limerence is the loss of control, the madness, which has always felt fairly all or nothing. Crushes I have had have always been of varying strength and never overwhelming or divorced from reality. I dont remember ever being told to get over them, with limerence definitely so.
I think this is a good explanation. It sort of speaks to my point about degrees. I know oneitis isn’t some officially recognized psychological phenomena, but it seems to be a bit like a “Limerence lite” kind of thing.
Oneitis basically implies that sticking to one person is a flaw, a disease – men should instead ‘spin plates’, whatever that means. It’s a term by the predecessor of the red pill. Aaand now I feel old.
Spinning plates is a metaphor used to describe doing many things at once instead of just one task.
Sounds to me like instead of focusing attention on one person (LO) put energies into other things or other persons besides LOs.
Lol it means having multiple women at the same time, i just don’t like the term. I used to think that men are hard-wired to have multiple women. Maybe limerent men are the exception.
I believe you’re right that oneitis seems to be a term that is particularly prevalent in the “manosphere,” but I think it can apply to all genders and sexual orientations as well. When we go through a breakup or experience unrequited love, aren’t we all told to “remember, there are plenty other fish in the sea?” It’s good advice in some ways because there can’t just be one person out there for each of us. And just because we think someone would be perfect for us doesn’t mean the other person is going to feel the same way. But it’s also crappy advice for anyone with romantic feelings because we don’t want just anyone; we want that person, who seems so special to us. It’s even harder for people like me because it’s not like I can go exploring to see who else is out there if I’m still married and living under the same roof as my wife.
There was a reply from suspiciously anonymous to me somewhere, I cannot find it.
From my memory- thank you for the suggestions! I think I slowly get to the point where I appreciate the satisfaction by a job well done , by preparing a kid for an exam, by moving outdoors more than the hectic heady stuff of limerence.
That’s what (non-limerent? Not-limerent-anymore? Cannot remember the nick🙈😂😂) said too- it’s ultimately more rewarding and more staying with oneself. Maybe it’s called getting old?🙈
Letter 6
Pavneet Singh
This has become of and not of; or we can only know
another’s pain from their verbal or physical action; or
you have to open your eyes before you can close them.
I believe in the new measurements:
a tablespoon of hair, an inch of blood.
You’ll want to write this down.
Kissing him was not intuitive.
Slicing open a fish was not intuitive.
To kiss him while he sliced
open a fish was intuitive.
I read somewhere that pilots see better, in part, because they are asked to.
Later, I’ll remember it as: A girl pretends she is lost so strangers
will go door to door with her,
seeking her apartment. My mother pretends not to know me.
My eyes half envision you, but
the way you appeared to me, roughly, is not sacred.
Pretend you weren’t asked here at all
NINE, 40
Anne Tardos
Take a good look, she says about her inventory.
Palatially housed, her inflammatory and multifaceted
set of selves.
Old brain inside the new brain, inside the skull.
The exact velocity of quantum particles cannot be known.
Like wave equations in the space of certain dimensions.
I never thought that things would go this far.
Angular momentum of closely-knit and sexually
adventurous people.
Any piece of matter, when heated, starts to glow.
It’s that kind of relationship that’s built on friction
These Poems
June Jordan
1936 –2002
These poems
they are things that I do
in the dark
reaching for you
whoever you are
and
are you ready?
These words
they are stones in the water
running away
These skeletal lines
they are desperate arms for my longing and love.
I am a stranger
learning to worship the strangers
around me
whoever you are
whoever I may become.
*****
Time and space make LO or MFF alike
A nostalgic stranger, one after another
Even one’s Selfs, in and out limerence
A awakened stranger to each other
🐦🔥
NINE, 86
Anne Tardos
The insubstantial and changing quality of space is appreciated.
Intellectual understanding is based on harmless and spontaneous perception.
Supposition gold-digger advocating pleasure—be the laughing stock!
Amber cushion softly evident seagull commentary, we shall prevail.
Tirelessly pedaling along the ever present source of ideas.
Long, drawn-out suffering is not what we’re after.
Palpably diligent search for the hidden order in art.
Studying aspects of artistic imagination, the kinds of attention.
Conscious and unconscious scanning of perceptual stress and oscillation.
**********
Ten, Tenth, 24
The substantial, changing quality of space and time
is painfully appreciated.
Instinctual sentiment is headless and astronomical drive.
Supposition sounding logic ruling — is the wishful mind!
Limerence fire spreads and engulfs a limerent soul.
Around clock chasing the ever present drunken hopes.
Long, drawn-out suffering is not what we’re after.
Foggy, diligent search for hidden answers in Selfs.
Studying aspects of the reverie, the highest of delights.
Conscious and unconscious scanning of
oscillating perceptions and conceptions.
Amber cushion softly evident and
Black lova husly obvious LwL commentary,
can we prevail and heal?
🐦🔥
Ten, Tenth, 24
The substantial, changing quality of space and time
is painfully appreciated.
Instinctual sentiment is headless and astronomical drive.
Supposition sounding logic ruling — is the wishful mind!
Limerence fire spreads and engulfs a limerent soul.
Around clock chasing the ever present drunken hopes.
Long, drawn-out suffering is not what we’re after.
Foggy, diligent search for hidden answers in Selfs.
Studying aspects of the reverie, the highest delight.
Conscious and unconscious scanning of
oscillating perception and reciprocation
Amber cushion softly evident and
Black lava harshly obvious LwL commentary,
can we prevail and heal?
🐦🔥
The substantial, changing quality of space and time
is painfully appreciated.
Instinctual sentiment is headless and astronomical drive.
Supposition sounding logic ruling — is the wishful mind!
Limerence fire spreads and engulfs limerent soul.
Around clock chasing the ever present drunk hopes.
Long, drawn-out suffering is not what we’re after.
Foggy, diligent search for hidden answers in Selfs.
Studying aspects of the reverie, old and new.
Conscious and unconscious scanning of
oscillating perception and reciprocation,
Now and here, then and there.
Amber cushion softly evident and
Black lava harshly obvious LwL commentary,
can we prevail and heal?
🐦🔥
I so want to text her or msg her on facebook. I degressed. I dont like him. I dont trust him. I am having a temptation. But Im going to try to take the high road. But it is difficult.
@Mila.
Some more thoughts I’m having today. I’ll address them to you simply because you’re the person who visited LwL most recently in the comments. If other people are allowed to ramble on, I guess I’m allowed to ramble on too…
My gut instinct, even as a teenager, has always been to fight limerence and not to succumb to it. Most other people seem wired the other way round. When I met my LO, for example, both he and I were single. I didn’t really take my Christian beliefs all that seriously. He didn’t take his Christian beliefs all that seriously. Why not act? (Well, apart from the tiresome fact he obviously didn’t reciprocate?)
Today the answer came to me: I’ve always resisted limerence because there is something in the world I value/d more than my LO’s love, and that’s my mother’s high opinion of me. My mother would never have accepted my LO into my life. My mother does take her Christian beliefs seriously. I’ve realised that I love my mother very deeply, even though I also believe she belongs in a nice lunatic asylum. On subconscious level, her approval is/was very important to me.
So, very interesting, huh? Love of Mummy trumps love of LO. Well done, Mummy. Well done. It only took you twenty-five years to win that game of chess.
I saw my mother today. I refuse to take her calls because she doesn’t treat me with enough respect. (I’m surreptitiously educating her on how to behave. Progress has been slow yet steady). However, she’s been stalking me lately like Diana, Goddess of the Hunt, and she finally managed to track me down…
I was out walking in the rain. She got out of the car and wanted a hug, so I gave her a hug. She’s been having hip trouble, so we exchanged a few friendly words about her hip. She seemed very pleased I already knew all about her hip trouble. (I fastidiously avoid talking to my mother, but I make it my business to keep abreast of her medical issues. I love her, but from a safe distance).
I think I finally understand my parents’ marital problems. My mother is/was a very controlling woman. My father is/was a very passive man. My mother’s controlling behaviour makes my father more passive. My father’s passivity makes my mother more controlling. It’s a vicious cycle from which the two of them can’t escape. They reinforce each other’s biggest emotional weaknesses.
I’ve finally accepted that it’s not my job to help my parents escape the controlling-passive dynamic. That’s their relationship, and I’m a separate person who has nothing to do with their relationship. When I don’t meddle in my parents’ (post-marital) relationship, they seem to get along okay. They actually have no choice but to get along okay, since there’s no third party refereeing conflict. You can’t sustain a drama triangle with only two players.
Gender relations: this may be unconventional wisdom, but I do believe that adult men and adult women in interpersonal relationships should be allowed to express the negative emotions they feel toward each other as well as the positive emotions they feel toward each other. I don’t think the expression of negative emotions toward the opposite sex should be taboo.
For example, since admitting to myself that I struggle with extremely heightened levels of misogyny, I’ve reconnected with the part of my heart that really loves my mother. In other words, by expressing the negativity I feel toward my mother, I’m suddenly free to feel positive emotions toward her again too. It’s as if a “ban on expressing/feeling negative emotions toward the opposite sex” means a ban on expressing/feeling all emotions toward the opposite sex. But often great love and tenderness is buried under layers of hate and anger and resentment, etc.
(Obviously, I resent Mummy from time to time. Mummy, in the best of times, is just a tad controlling. Most mothers are controlling. Possessiveness is a fairly natural part of motherhood. When women are partnered with weak men, however, women become even more controlling than usual. I think controlling behaviour in adult human females is frequency a sign/symptom of stress).
I saw my barista friend again. I realised I don’t know what I want to be to him. Sometimes, I feel like his father. Sometimes, I feel like his son. Sometimes, I feel like his brother. Sometimes, I feel like his lover. He gave me a lingering look as I walked past his table. He was wearing a baseball cap. I patted him on the head twice and kept on walking. (My way of saying goodbye, and also publicly acknowledging he’s important to me. My own father would never acknowledge publicly I was important to him). For one hot minute, I thought I was entering my “villain era”. But nope. False alarm. I think I might be in my “father era”. 🙂
„ In other words, by expressing the negativity I feel toward my mother, I’m suddenly free to feel positive emotions toward her again too.“
That’s very interesting!
I‘m out of my depth here since I never pondered on parent-child relations very much.
„ I’ll address them to you simply because you’re the person who visited LwL most recently in the comments. If other people are allowed to ramble on, I guess I’m allowed to ramble on too…“
Be my guest! (Hope that’s a valid expression) Ramble on, I rambled a lot here, but I think I‘ll take a break.