It’s been a busy week for me this week, and one of those times where I’ve abortively started two or three possible posts, but somehow not quite got all the ducks in a row.
However, I also noticed that you cheeky scamps in the LwL commentariat have been having – *gasp* – off-topic conversations in the comments again.
Clearly it must be time for another coffeehouse post, so that conversations can ramble where they please, and wisdom can be cultivated.
To start the discussion this week, I’m going to cynically throw open the half-formed ideas for posts that are in my drafts folder, and see which of them strike a cord…
First up, is How to get over an office crush. I have posted before about limerence for a co-worker, but haven’t developed the ideas into a comprehensively useful how-to guide on beating an inconvenient office infatuation, and all the professional risks involved.
The second idea is Suspended Authority, which is a concept that I’m having trouble coming up with a good name for. It’s a nebulous feeling that was part of the limerence experience for me, and I suspect many others, but is difficult to clearly articulate.
The idea is when in the throes of a limerent episode, and most especially when in the presence of a limerent object, some internal force seemed to be able to sedate my executive brain. It was a kind of warm feeling of agreeable surrender – a strange mood in which I knew I was going to behave irresponsibly but didn’t care. Any previous resolve to stop seeking limerent reward evaporated.
It was as though the cautious, responsible part of my brain had been told to stand down – and not just that, while it sat on the sidelines, it was darkly, secretly, watching, and enjoying the frisson of danger.
That experience is one of the reasons why the “altered state of mind” framing of limerence seems so apt to me. It did feel as though I was a different person, running on different emotions, despite retaining my core identity.
The third post idea is about how limerence affects dating and mate selection. A lot of the discussion in this space seems to approach dating from an economic perspective: “high value” men seeking “high value” women, and how that influences mating habits. Dating apps have messed up the calculus in recent years, but there still seems to be a tendency to explain behaviour based on rational choice in a quasi-economic system.
The problem is, limerence is a massive destabilising force in this model. Objective “mate value” is meaningless when a limerent is fixated on their limerent object. LO maxes out desire, regardless of reproductive success or rational decision making.
If an alpha-chad becomes limerent for a “5 out of 10” girl next door, he’s going to pursue her single-mindedly, even if he could seduce a supermodel.
Beyond this sort of simple economic mismatch, there are numerous stories of limerents abandoning a good relationship for a trainwreck of a limerent object, abandoning young children for thrills, or desperately wanting to bond with selfish or abusive LOs. It’s hard to understand how that’s maximising their reproductive interests.
So, there we go. Some ideas to kick things off. Which would you like to read more about?
And finally…
One last piece of news. I’m delighted to announce the US publisher for Smitten: St Martin’s press.
I’ll keep everyone up to date on launch dates and pre-orders š
Suspended authority. Getting straight in there this week. This is something that I’ve come to realise more and more as I’ve been sobering up from LE. It’s been covered in parts before but for me, the realisation that I cannot seem to hold my tongue in the same way that I can in normal situations. I say things that I would never say to other friends. I’d be mortified of offending my friends if I said similar things to them. Like if I get jealous, passive aggressive comments come out in the most unattractive way. I think it comes down to feeling that close connection with LO, but truth is I don’t know how LO actually views me. I think his experience of me is likely to be different to others. It got the point where I realised we couldn’t be friends because I had no control of what I was going to say. Since then we met in person which was actually nice and dampened the idol image I had created in my head. However, I can’t remember all the conversation and I think my bluntness caused uneasiness in part.
I realised over the past few months that conversations with LO brings out the worst type of characteristics in me- jealousy, anxiety, judgemental, gossipy, overthinking.
I keep re reading the post about integrity because I need to try and take some control before I accidentally say something outrageous.
Hi Whoomp,
I can relate a bit, since Iām saying/texting snippy, slightly aggressive stuff to my last LO too. I wouldnāt behave like that to other friends, I believe it is a residue of disappointed limerence that I get irked by him so much that I behave nastily.
Iām not being fair there, heās just the way he is and I take offense at that sometimes. Afterwards I curse myself for not being more relaxed and good-willed, because I donāt want to be that snippy person with underlying aggression.
Thatās why I think I have to reduce contact, I will be less provoked by his passive and not very perspective personality, and we would get along better. Or not, maybe it will just cool down then, but I am as far out of limerence as to accept that.
“The idea is when in the throes of a limerent episode, and most especially when in the presence of a limerent object, some internal force seemed to be able to sedate my executive brain. It was a kind of warm feeling of agreeable surrender ā a strange mood in which I knew I was going to behave irresponsibly but didnāt care. Any previous resolve to stop seeking limerent reward evaporated.
It was as though the cautious, responsible part of my brain had been told to stand down ā and not just that, while it sat on the sidelines, it was darkly, secretly, watching, and enjoying the frisson of danger.
That experience is one of the reasons why the āaltered state of mindā framing of limerence seems so apt to me. It did feel as though I was a different person, running on different emotions, despite retaining my core identity.”
Okay. Suspended authority it is. Let’s see what we can do with this idea…
Surprisingly, I didn’t say anything cheeky or outrageous to my LO. I might have said cheeky and outrageous things to everybody in my life except for him. But I didn’t say anything daring to him. He was the one who said daring things to me. I think he corrupted me! (No, just kidding. I think he was appealing to me because deep down we were/are very similar people. He was just expressing all the parts of my own personality I was too shy or too well-raised to express in public).
I don’t think I acted irresponsibly around my LO. No, not unless we’re talking about that time he asked me school-related questions and I answered him in an Irish accent. Is impersonating an Irishman considered irresponsible, do you think? š¤£
Regarding the “warm feeling of agreeable surrender”, I have often wondered why I felt so comfortable on an emotional level with my LO. I’ve decided that’s because he was/is an ESTP, and if you look closely, ESTP is the exact opposite type to INFJ.
In other words, I was attracted to my polar opposite, and when we were together, there was this wonderful sense of completeness, because I think his personality compensated for everything that was weak or underdeveloped in mine, and vice versa. Perhaps I only imagined a sexual connection between us, but the emotional connection was definitely real. He sought me out in a way he didn’t seek out the other males in our group. He was getting something from me. My energy “fed” him in some strange way. He found me somehow comforting.
I can’t really remember feeling “frisson of danger” in relation to my LO, probably because I was young and naive and wasn’t aware of any moral/emotional stakes. I did feel guilty about certain things, but I didn’t explicitly link those things to my LO. I lived too much in fantasy to feel morally endangered by my LO. I did experience a “frisson of danger” recently, however, with a young man I only consider to be a crush and not an LO.
This young man and I have been exchanging flirtatious eye contact for about 2-3 years now. (He started it). We flirt with our body language, but only speak in passing. I think he’s a straight man, but he’s very feminine, has a beautiful mane of hair that he sometimes lets out. He has a ton of female friends. He’s very tactile with these female friends, and they with him. One day, I walked past him and one of his female friends was doing his hair for him. His hair, I’m sorry to say, looked better than hers did. I just smirked and waved as I walked past.
Anyway, long story short, I decided I was going to touch this man gently the next time I said goodbye to him, just to find out whether there is any real basis to the three years of “frisson” between us. I knew he was interested in interacting with me because he peeped round the corner while I was drinking my coffee just to look at me, and then he initiated the goodbye when I got up to leave. (He’s one of the baristas at the cafe, but he wasn’t working that day, just hanging around).
After the young man nodded and said goodbye to me, I gently placed both my hands on his upper arms, which were bare. He wasn’t uncomfortable. He was leaning over a counter and he looked back at me with an amused smile on his face, waiting for me to explain my actions. Two young women (cafe workers) were also present. All four of us know each other and are on friendly terms. While still touching my male friend, I leaned forward over his shoulder and addressed one of the female workers in a conspiratorial whisper. (This female worker is very close to my barista friend). “Ah. He’s a good man.” (I meant to say it sincerely, but the statement came out of my mouth sounding more sarcastic than sincere).
Barista friend happily and casually disagrees with me that he’s a good man, but he agrees with my second statement that he’s a good barista. “Yeah, that one’s probably true.”
When I made physical contact with this man, I felt “frisson of danger” in the form of an adrenalin rush, because I didn’t know how he’d respond to being touched. I felt like my whole body was burning up with fever because I’ve always found this man attractive. However, I also realised in the instant I touched him that he was NOT burning up with fever for me. For him, the touch I gave him was friendly and warm and casual and “matey”. All my fantasies about this man died on the spot. I could pick up through a mere half-second of skin contact his total absence of desire for me. The “frisson” I imagined existed between us wasn’t real – at least not from his point of view. Still, for a fraction of a second, my whole body came alive as if the frisson was real. My body wanted to believe in fantasy over fact.
This interaction helped me realised that LOs (and crushes) are indeed NOT to blame for the intense feelings they sometimes inspire. I realised that by touching my very attractive friend, I was bringing the “emotional fire” to the table and not him, and that my “emotional fire” meant very little to him indeed. His response to me wasn’t attraction and it also wasn’t shock or dismay or embarrassment or indignation. It was just good-natured tolerance/contempt. “Oh, it’s only Sammy. He wants a cuddle. How very … predictable. What else is new?” š
Final analysis: I suspect my barista friend of being heterolimerent. He’s one of those heterolimerent men who are very lucky. (Females actually like him, and throng to him). If I had to explain the connection that he and I share, I would say that I think he likes me because I’m one of the few males in his life who isn’t jealous and/or threatened by his “hotness”. I’m actually getting as much pleasure from his “hotness” as the girls are. Also, I’m hot, but not hot enough to steal any female attention/spotlight away from him. I’m not a threat to him sexually or socially. I think the exact same dynamic was going on with my LO in high school.
My LO was a straight man with a lot of feminine qualities. His feminine qualities made him MORE attractive and not less attractive to females. You could say he had “bisexual appeal” i.e. both males and females thought he was good-looking. However, just because he had looks that appealed to both sexes, that doesn’t mean he himself was attracted to both sexes. If one touch can be enough to spark an infatuation, one touch can also be enough to snuff out an infatuation, because it can clearly indicate that sexual interest/romantic feeling isn’t reciprocated.
I think sometimes people can become limerent or stay limerent because they are living to a truly shocking extent INSIDE their own heads. It’s amazing how fast fantasy can collapse when one makes a real human connection with someone. For me, “frisson of danger” is often generated by a limerent choosing to hide feelings of attraction from LO. If said limerent expresses those same feelings openly, and fails to get a response, those feelings may quickly dissipate. š
āIf one touch can be enough to spark an infatuation, one touch can also be enough to snuff out an infatuation, because it can clearly indicate that sexual interest/romantic feeling isnāt reciprocated.ā
Very true, agree completely. Now I think I only count my last three LEs as true limerence although having had intense crushes before, because these crushes were not reciprocated and snuffed out in a similar or related manner of what you recounted of your barista. I could only be really limerent for someone who reacted on touches and looks in a way that showed some sort of frisson- maybe not the exact same frisson or excitement as mine, but certainly something similar.
@Sammy,
What evidence do you have that you are “hot”? I truly am curious. I love that you are so confident about it. How can I know if I am “hot” or not? š
I had a non-date that turned into a date the other day. With an acquaintance of a friend. Apparently, he asked my friend at a coffee shop if she would help him with some English questions (English is his second language, Spanish of course is his native language). She did, and when she told me about him, she helped us exchange numbers. We did, and ended up meeting at the same coffee shop with my friend to introduce us. To say there were sparks was an understatement. When my friend left, we chuckled and stumbled through the English homework, then shortly after converted our non-date to a date where we actually got to know about eachother’s future goals, current situations and basically made sure some of the big deal breakers were out in the open and dealt with. And doing so in both languages was super fun.
I think I am dealing with another INFJ here, and that is truly exciting. To have a man see and experience the world a lot like I do?! I sure hope it goes somewhere. Too soon to say, but since I am free to explore, I am definitely going to enjoy what I can in this limerent-free season š
Hi LN,
Iām convinced you are hot. I got the impression that there were several men pursuing you, which proves it,no? So, enjoy your hotness š (if thatās a word)
@Mila,
I think I am “cute”. Which may be a stronger draw than “hot” in some ways š¤
Hot AND cute, letās agree on that!
Mila,
On the topic of cute…
When LO #2 and I were dating, LO #2 said that she didn’t like me at first. She said that I was cocky and arrogant (ENTJ). I asked her why she continued to go out with me. She said that I was “relentlessly persistent” and “at times, you cab be irresistibly cute.”
LO #2 and I would watch Remington Steele together. I told her that I wanted to be “killer” like Remington. LO #2 said that I couldn’t pull off “killer.” It just wasn’t in me. She said that I was cute. I protested. She said that I did cute better than anybody and there was nothing wrong with cute.
She also said that she thought I could pull off John Steed (Patrick NcNee) in The Avengers. But, I never put that to the test.
Mila,
“Hot AND cute, letās agree on that!”
I don’t think a person can be both, can they? It’s two different types. One isn’t necessarily better than the other.
It’s just personal preference in terms of what a person prefers.
Limerent Emeritus,
I had to google, but realized that the Avengers were on tv when I was a kid under a completely ridiculous title (my home country insists on translating or replacing titles in a wayward manner)and I loved it! Have a vague memory of a kind and elegant guy. So, you seem to be another contender for hot and cute!
Marcia,
Maybe, being not a native speaker, I might have the wrong meaning of āhotā? Doesnāt it mean sexually attractive? Why can one not be cute and hot at the same time? I think itās possible and a devastating mix. Wasnāt Audrey Hepburn cute and hot, for example? I have to admit that I cannot think of a man at the moment, apart from LO2ā¦
Mila,
” Wasnāt Audrey Hepburn cute and hot, for example? ”
I would never describe Audrey Hepburn as hot.
I think of “hot” as sexy. But I guess “hot” could also mean a smokeshow by being both sexy and attractive.
“Cute” is approachable in a kind of innocent or endearing way and attractive.
I’ve always considered that to be Hot, you have to at least be cute. There has to be some element of the way a person rocks an outfit or how they carry themselves. I see cute females everywhere, all the time, but many of them do not reach a level of what I would consider Hot.
Now Audrey Hepburn I think could easily qualify as Hot, judging from some of her facial expressions and outfits in those black and white photos from back in the day. She had her own certain style that helped too.. That whole Era of Hollywood seemed to really get how to “Vogue” certain Women and that’s just plain HAWT imo..
MJ,
“Iāve always considered that to be Hot, you have to at least be cute.”
That’s a man’s definition. Sexiness is tied to attractiveness.
If you’re talking about Old Hollywood, Ronald Reagan was a nice-looking guy is his youth but he didn’t have a sexy bone in his body. š Or the members of the Beatles. They’re cute buy they’re not sexy.
Jim Morrison of the Doors? Smoking sexy, in his hey day.
Thanks, Mila,
Song of the Thread: “Sharp Dressed Man” – ZZ Top (1982)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wRHBLwpASw#ddg-play
LO #2 worked in the Men’s Department of a major department store in college. About 3 months after we started dating, she said that I was good looking, smart, and great company but I dressed like a bozo. She said that she’d teach me how to dress.
She came over the next Saturday morning. She told me to bring two garbage bags, one for donation and one for the trash. She put my Navy uniforms to one side and pulled out every piece of clothing in my closet. She found one pair of brown and white checked polyester pants that I probably had for over 10 years. She took them by the legs and ripped them apart at the crotch, saying, “Not even a poor person should be caught dead in these.”
We went to the mall and $400 later ($1200 in adjusted dollars), I came out with a completely new wardrobe. The only think we disagreed on was double breasted jackets. Being in the Navy, I liked them. LO #2 didn’t. When I was in one of my more passive-aggressive moods, I’d wear one.
After we broke up, I went on a cruise. I was shopping for clothes and came across a suit in Nordstrom Rack that I thought belonged in the Casino in Monte Carlo. Unfortunately, it wasn’t anywhere close to my size.
After I got married, I saw the most gorgeous pin-striped suit in the Hugo Boss store in the mall. It was something John Steed would have worn. If a man couldn’t look good in that suit, he couldn’t look good in anything. It was $600 in 1990. I didn’t wear suits at work so I didn’t buy it but I loved it. The last time I wore a suit was to a funeral before covid.
Bonus tracka:
“Legs” (1982)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUDcTLaWJuo
“Gimme All Your Lovin” (1982)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae829mFAGGE
LE,
I would love to have someone with style to organize my clothes, I hate shopping and never get to throwing the clothes out I never wear!
Actually my colleague justhad the same problem like you with the Hugo Boss suit, apparently she saw the most fantastic black dress with a plunging back etc that fit perfectly, but was very expensive and she knew she would have very scarce opportunity to wear it.. she was torn and discussed it at length šand in the end didnāt buy it.
I wasnāt sure what to tell her either.
Mila,
LO #2 never told me what to wear but she taught me what I looked good in. She even had me get my colors done. I’m a Winter, LO #2 is an Autumn, and my wife is a Spring. I look good in bold colors. and charcoal grey, Navy blue, hunter green, and burgundy. Pastels make me look washed out. Alexander Julian and Boston Trader were two of my favorite clothing lines.
One day LO #2 and I were in the mall. She saw a bright pink shirt on the clearance table. She brought it over, held it up against me and said that I’d look really good in it. She said the shirt complimented my complexion. She said that most pink wouldn’t work for me but this shade did. I thought she was crazy but she was going to be with me when I wore it so I didn’t think she’d put me into anything that reflected poorly on her.
We had to find some things to go with it. I walked out of the store with the shirt, an off white linen sport coat, a tie that nearly matched the shirt and dark charcoal slacks.
She was right, I did look good in it.
LE
Ok I want her number!š
Iām never sure what really looks good on me. SO has a different taste from my colleagues, I have another taste again etc.
Especially pink needs to be the exactly right individual shadow for each skin tone. Not many men can pull off pink (hope I used āpull offā in the right place)
Marcia,
I guess itās not that someone is cute and hot at the same time, they can just be one or the other at different times, like a side of them that suddenly comes out.
I guess also that itās rare in men. LO1 was hot, my SO is hot, he can do cute things but I wouldnāt describe him as cute. My last LO (3) was/is cute, only LO2 could be both. Heās actually my favorite LO, not only because of that.
*I mean, my SO stands of course over all LOs. Only out of my LOs LO2 is my favorite āš»
Mila,
“I guess itās not that someone is cute and hot at the same time, they can just be one or the other at different times, like a side of them that suddenly comes out.”
I guess but I think of hotness (or sexiness) as a quality. Some people are just naturally sexy. The way they move, the way they walk, their mannerisms, their voice.
Really late to this conversation but my boss always would say I thought LO was “hot” and it would piss off my old fashioned sensibilities. Never cared for the word to describe a woman’s attractiveness. I think the peak of description of a woman is gorgeous. And the most “base” I can use as an adjective is (back in the day when this old man was young and wrote fiction) voluptuous.
Haha I remember when I was talking to my co-workers (when LO wasn’t there that day) that I couldn’t understand how LO’s ex could cheat on her with some “trailer trash hussy” and they all looked at me like that was the first time they heard “hussy”. I so date myself every time I talk. š
Song of the Blog: “I’ve Got You Under My Skin” – The 4 Seasons (1966)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSpyqTjztwM
There are many covers of this song but this is my favorite. I like the “never win” in the background.
Is that a pug you’re scolding? LO #4 loved pugs. The only thing missing was the redhead but there was one in last week’s blog.
WRT “Suspended Authority,” when LO #4’s relationship went south and she reached out to me, my inner 5yr old came barreling out of nowhere saying, ” We’ve seen this before and I got this!
The battle was on.
@Mila,
Aw, thanks for the compliment āŗļø
I wonāt look at her facebook. I wonāt look at her facebook. I wonāt look at her facebook. Iām having a bad day. I donāt like him. A man dating 20 plus years down ā¦. Am I any better? Time for Air Supply and lots of vodka. Or maybe some Barry Manilow or Bread for that matter.
Adam, Adam..
You need to unfollow for your own sanity.
Insta too, and whatever other social media.
Wipe it from your browser too.
No, not Air Supply or Manilow or any other soppy songs.
Get some metal into you.. Or hip hop.. Something with a bit of an edge.
I never did check it. I dont even follow her. Just use the search feature. I have bad vibes about this man she is with. Call my cynical but a man dating down 20 years younger than him ā¦. I don’t trust he’s after her heart. I donāt want someone to hurt her again. I want to take her away from him. But maybe I am wrong. But in my old age Iāve learned to trust my gut. Sheās been through so many men that donāt appreciate the wonderful mother and woman she is. And it distresses me.
MJ
Rose Pink Cadillac soothes me. Thanks for that.
You’re welcome @Adam. I’m glad you’re still enjoying the vibe. I listen to both versions and I still can’t refrain from singing when I put them on..
LO Love Forever.. š¤ššµ
As I understand it, regarding dating & mate selection, it typically works the other way about, though?
So it’s more likely that, say, a gamma girl will be pining for a Chad /Tyrone, waiting for him to ask her out, than the reverse.
That is, we desire most what we cannot have.
Having said that, most of my own crushes were indeed for women who I wasn’t sexually attracted to.
(I think they were just regular crushes, not LE’s, though I’m in the high risk category, INFJ-A.
I got over them soon after NC or disclosure or transference to a non-crush ship).
I’m thinking about the crushes I’ve had.. All the ones I can remember, were more emotional crushes.. None of them were exactly my ‘type’.
Though certainly not unappealing, their physical attributes were not their most outstanding feature, clearly it was not what attracted me to them, it was their personalities.
I remember at the time thinking each was out of my league.. but looking back now, in most cases, I do not know what I ever saw in them.
My current and I suspect only LO is the only crush I’ve ever had who so profoundly appeals to me both physically and emotionally.
In this case I’m definitely “batting above my average”, at least in my mind.
And I know that it’s also because of her personality.
Smokeshows come & go in my circle, but none have ever played with me like LO, so I consider them unavailable, and hence a zero.
Actually, I should rephrase that above quote to:
we desire most what is only just beyond our reach ~
@ghostzoned,
Good thoughts!
I did some debating on here a while ago trying to claim that my crushes start emotionally and only once that’s in place do I ever find them physically attractive. I got some good questions back from Marcia that made me rethink it.
Most men (perhaps ‘people’, but it would need female viewpoints to confirm) will do a kind of initial evaluation of whether / how much someone is physically ‘their type’ or potentially attractive to them on first meeting them. For me this happens sub consciously and I couldn’t stop it if I tried. The outcome enables me to categorise them on a binary ‘yes I could (given certain circumstances) become attracted to this woman’ or ‘no I couldn’t’. This sounds quite shallow but I’d be willing to bet most people do it.
But then those first impressions don’t determine whether it turns into a crush. That for me depends on the personality. Only if we really click in that way would it progress to a crush. Then my head is capable of turning their looks into the perfect angel. Others who are objectively better looking, this would never happen with if our personalities don’t click.
The first part just establishes who is a candidate or not. I can’t think of any crush I have had where they would not have been a ‘yes’ on that initial bit. A woman could have the most wonderful personality in the world and click with mine, without there ever being a hint of a crush. One of my almost lifelong female best friends is an example.
Why do you say INFJ-As are at most risk? I might be in this category but my F is right on the line with T – I score either side of the line depending on the mood I’m in.
Was referring to this study here https://livingwithlimerence.com/how-common-is-limerence/
INFJ’s & INFP’s are overwhelmingly represented among self reported limerents, INT-‘s also feature heavily.
I think that the ‘click’ is something that I yearn for more than anything, even in non limerent relationships.
If it’s not there, then no go.
I’ve only ever had long and mid term romances.
Could never do casual flings, even with someone I might find physically attractive, unless of course we connected, in which case a ONS would last for months..
My friends could happily hop into bed with some stranger without even knowing the person, or even someone they didn’t particularly like, and I never could get how they did it..
Thinking back, it’s the very opposite of limerence.
ghostzoned,
Now my replies aren’t appearing where I mean them to! Scroll down a bit and I have replied to this post.
Lim-a-rant,
“Most men (perhaps āpeopleā, but it would need female viewpoints to confirm) will do a kind of initial evaluation of whether / how much someone is physically ātheir typeā or potentially attractive to them on first meeting them. For me this happens sub consciously and I couldnāt stop it if I tried. The outcome enables me to categorise them on a binary āyes I could (given certain circumstances) become attracted to this womanā or āno I couldnātā. This sounds quite shallow but Iād be willing to bet most people do it.
But then those first impressions donāt determine whether it turns into a crush. That for me depends on the personality.”
For me, it’s similar, but I feel chemistry or attraction right away. Now, that can fade pretty quickly if I get to know the person better and don’t like him. Or it can grow, if I become more interested. Talking to/interacting with the person determines it. But I already feel some kind of initial “shazam.”
@Marcia,
Mine are more glimmers (i know the word is LwL cliche but it fits what I experience well) that can escalate into shazams. But I have rethought the demisexual point we debated before. *Something* initial has to be there for me to be open to the emotional connection.
I guess I had a phase of more instant ‘shazam’ moments when I was in my teens and twenties – so I do know what you mean, even if it feels like a fading memory!
Lim-a-rant,
*Something* initial has to be there for me to be open to the emotional connection.”
Ah, ok. I separate the two. Physical attraction doesn’t mean emotional connection, and vice versa. Thought both can be present.
“I guess I had a phase of more instant āshazamā moments when I was in my teens and twenties ā so I do know what you mean, even if it feels like a fading memory!”
There are degrees of “shazam.” Some are stronger there others, but I feel some kind of sexual tension.
Marcia,
I didn’t express the “*something has to be there*” point quite right and I have blurred my meaning. I’ll try and be clearer.
I’d be willing to build and keep an emotional connection to anyone I clicked with where there was no physical attraction before or after the emotional connection. I have several totally platonic female friends like that.
But no amount of emotional connection alone can magic up a crush or limerence. Something else has to be there first for it to develop into that. And if the ‘something’ is there, I up the ante in finding out if an emotional connection exists.
See also an exchange I had with ghostzoned in this coffeehouse about it.
I am kind of climbing down from the “LO and I were just friends for ages, why did it change?” line I used to take. LwL has helped me to debunk that and know it’s more complicated.
Marcia,
“But no amount of emotional connection alone can magic up a crush or limerence. Something else has to be there first for it to develop into that”
If I’m understanding you correctly, you have to find the woman appealing initially. You have to be able to put her into the “I’d do her” category when you first meet. And then, if there is an emotional connection, it may become a crush. If it’s someone you don’t initially find appealing, no amount of emotional connection will cause the crush to develop, though you could be friends. Am I getting that right? Sorry … gotta ask. Is it not best, then, to avoid trying to develop an emotional connection with women you find attractive? Otherwise, you’re opening the door for potential issues down the road. Become friends/get closer to women you don’t find attractive. If I’m friends with a guy, it’s because I’m not into him physically. Or not enough to really do anything about it.
For me, I may find a guy attractive initially but that doesn’t mean I feel any frisson. But when I do, it’s pretty quick after meeting him. The emotional connection would come after getting to know him, which may kill the frisson if I end up not liking him.
@Marcia
“You have to be able to put her into the āIād do herā category when you first meet.”
Not my words, but did really make me laugh out loud, and it’s factually correct.
“Am I getting that right? Gotta ask.”
Yep, accurate
“Is it not best, then, to avoid trying to develop an emotional connection with women you find attractive?”
Yes, when not single. It’s a lesson for the future, learned the hard way and after the horse had bolted this time.
“Become friends/get closer to women you donāt find attractive.”
More straightforward , less fun initially, but less long term trouble.
Lim-a-rant,
“Not my words, but did really make me laugh out loud, and itās factually correct.”
š
“Yes, when not single. ”
It seems kind of self-evident. š
“More straightforward , less fun initially, but less long term trouble.”
I mean, yes, but if you’re married (unless you have some kind of understanding) … you’re not really supposed to be on the prowl for potentials. I would be upset if my spouse was trying to befriend women he was into. Sorry. I’m just being honest.
Step away from the buffet. š
Hold on, guys. There are some women who fall into the āIād do herā category for all men. Must all men avoid them? Are those women supposed to be lonely? Women naturally donāt like them so who will they have for friendship? How about if we all learn to be kind to everyone even if they trigger feelings in us. I donāt think Lim-a-rant should avoid his attractive female friends, but he should control his behavior.
Just a thought.
Lovisa
“There are some women who fall into the āIād do herā category for all men.”
That is not what I wrote. Falls into “I’d do her” for him.
” I donāt think Lim-a-rant should avoid his attractive female friends, but he should control his behavior.”
I don’t think a married or partnered man should be cultivating close, one-on-one friendships with women he is attracted to. And vice versa.
That’s my personal opinion. You may have a different one.
@Lovisa
I agree. And some of us have interests where our friends naturally end up being male a lot. Makes it hard to cut off a bunch of potentials. Especially if you’re introverted/neurodivergent and don’t make friends as easily.
I remember having attractive Lady Friends (usually co-workers) when I was married and it is a slippery slope when being committed.
As many of you already know, I was too easily triggered and it finally caught up to me. Now I’m just a hot middle aged mess.
Perhaps LaR is a better Man than me. Lovisa is correct we should be kind. Keeping control with thoughts is paramount. But I do admit Ms. Marcia raises a good point.
Iām with Lovisa here.
Itās probably a question of what āIād do herā means. Thereās a whole range between finding someone generally attractive and having a crush.
I cannot rule out every attractive person as my friend, wouldnāt that be a bit paranoid? Thereās no need to control myself, I simply donāt have to develop a crush or affair with everyone whoās not disgusting to me.
Also, Iām a bit astonished at the idea that my male friends are my friends because they donāt find me attractive. I think they do but in a casual, not really interested manner since Iām married and most of them too. I think thatās absolutely possible.
@Marcia,
“youāre not really supposed to be on the prowl for potentials.”
I really get your general point. But ‘on the prowl for potentials’ suggests a calculated search for multiple women. It really isn’t like that with me. It is the blurring of emotional boundaries with *one* woman – a friend of 10+ years, with acknowledged glimmers at both ends of that spell. Now, you can put that back at me if you want and say you think that’s worse than the prowling for many. I’m not here to defend all my actions – I never have tried to re my LE. But that’s the issue at hand – I have been naive with one woman, not strategic with many. I certainly won’t go looking for more and I now know thanks to LwL how to recognise glimmers quicker and why and how to nip them in the bud.
@Lovisa
“How about if we all learn to be kind to everyone even if they trigger feelings in us. I donāt think Lim-a-rant should avoid his attractive female friends, but he should control his behavior.”
I agree, and that’s been my method. I can’t totally avoid LO anyway. Apart from any unintentional leakage (I am sure there has been some but it has never been commented on) I have never signalled to my LO any intention of trying to be anything more than her friend, not badmouthed my SO to her, etc. The friendship is as reciprocal as one can be. We are both people that make friends with the opposite sex easier than with our own (thank you to Serial Limerent too for acknowledging that that can be a thing). It’s complicated! LO had been through a bad run with men so I think by being her friend I act as a stabilising male presence. If I was to cast her out of my life for selfish reasons, that wouldn’t feel kind or respectful. I am noticing the feelings diminish a bit now and things are improving with SO – I’m doing OK. I hope that the family situation you have in your life hasn’t escalated any more – it sounds horrible.
@MJ
“Perhaps LaR is a better Man than me”
I doubt that, MJ, and I’m uncomfortable with deeming anyone ‘better’ than anyone else. We all make mistakes at some point, it is what we learn from them and what we do with it, that matters. I can tell you are someone who acknowledges and learns from yours. I still need to do a lot of reflection on mine. I get the potential ‘slippery slope’ you mention and have worked to avoid it by really controlling the signals I give out.
@Mila
“Also, Iām a bit astonished at the idea that my male friends are my friends because they donāt find me attractive. I think they do but in a casual, not really interested manner since Iām married and most of them too. I think thatās absolutely possible.”
Yes, I think so. If I am crude about it, the situation you’re describing is more of a kind of “I wouldn’t hypothetically rule out ‘doing’ her in some circumstance ever” not “I’m desperate to ‘do’ her today”. Occasionally these things can blur and turn into crushes/LE, as you and I have both experienced while married/partnered. I am definitely not putting out a moratorium for the future to say “I will never allow myself to be friends with an attractive woman” (Lovisa, you can rest easy!). More the lesson learned for me is how to quickly recognise when it risks turning complicated or problematic (what @ghostzoned has called ‘The Click’) and getting out quickly and cleanly at that point.
Lim-a-rant,
“It is the blurring of emotional boundaries with *one* woman ā a friend of 10+ years, with acknowledged glimmers at both ends of that spell.”
I know this is going to be an unpopular viewpoint, but I think it’s tricky for men and women to be close friends. Doing things together, alone. Calling, texting, sharing personal stuff.
And, personally, I don’t want to expend that kind of energy on a man I don’t want to date or who’s not available.
I don’t mean that I can’t be work friends or activity friends, in a group. Or I have a female friend and I become friends with her husband and the three of us do stuff together sometimes.
But going to dinner and a movie, alone, for example, kind of feels like a date.
Marcia,
I get it. We’re different but it is down to individual choices and what people are happy with. I have boundaries as regards the ‘activities’ you listed and others – things I would do with her, things I would definitely not, things that have got more blurry. Ultimately it is her choice (as a woman) whether to engage with me on the basis I offer (as a partnered man with boundaries). She can choose to walk from having my friendship at any point and I’d understand if she did. If she saw it like you see it, logically she would have done.
Lim-a-rant,
“Ultimately it is her choice (as a woman) whether to engage with me on the basis I offer (as a partnered man with boundaries).”
I think male/female friendships are something of a loophole. Let’s be honest: It’s not like a regular, platonic friendship. In the ones I’ve had, anyway. There’s still that male-female dynamic (though to a lesser extent, obviously, than if we were dating), flirtation, compliments. It feels like a way to get that energy and that dynamic without going full throttle into something physical.
So if I with someone in a serious relationship and they have close female friends, I have to wonder: Can’t I provide that for you? And the second question is: How much of that dynamic is enough?
If you want a platonic friend, get a buddy. That isn’t written to be flippant.
LaR, I think Marcia got you there. The “as a woman” part caught my eye too. Because if it were a normal friendship, there would be none of that “as a woman” business to consider. It would just be a friendship of equals. No talk of considering whether she could be friends with “a partnered man with boundaries”. My friendships with men have usually been pretty casual, rarely have I had a close male confidante. Actually probably just the one: my transferee (years ago and now). And that was after we had slept together(!)
I don’t remember how it was way back then, but nowadays there is definitely that male-female dynamic, I wouldn’t have it any other way! š
Trifles,
“Because if it were a normal friendship, there would be none of that āas a womanā business to consider. It would just be a friendship of equals. No talk of considering whether she could be friends with āa partnered man with boundariesā. ”
Exactly. If are wondering if the friend is attracted to you or how you’re going to put up sexual/romantic/physical boundaries… it’s already not a platonic friendship.
When I had close male friends, I think I was getting and wanting (without being totally aware of it) what it is that men provide for women. I don’t mean physically. I mean emotionally. It’s a different than what a woman provides for another women in a close friendship.
Some of these male friends ended up wanting more or expressing feelings or making a pass (yes, some were partnered up). But all I wanted was the attention and the energy and the male-female dynamic.
I wanted part of the pie but not all of it and I think that may have been a bit selfish of me.
I have very solid friendships with my male friends. I am grateful for my male friends. They offer great advice and support. I donāt notice any competitive behavior in my male/female friendships like I notice with female friends (okay maybe a little with my running friends). And something that I absolutely love about my male friends is that they never act like my mother. They never try to correct what they think is bad behavior. I can relax and interact without fear of being corrected. They are significantly more loyal. With a female friend, I canāt predict what she will do next, but male friends are reliably consistent. I wish it wasnāt so difficult for men and women to be friends. Btw, my husband is definitely my best friend.
I marvel at women and girls who prefer female friendships. I donāt understand it. I also think they have a special talent that I lack. Itās something that I am working towards.
Marcia, I think a lot of people feel the same way that you do, but it sounds smothering to enforce those strict rules. I must admit that an old boyfriend had a female friend who he sometimes preferred over me. I couldnāt figure out why he liked her because she wasnāt very likable. I did have the thought that whatever he was getting from her, he should get from me. Later, I discovered that she was his dealer. Since I didnāt use or deal drugs, I couldnāt give him what she was giving him. I donāt think I would have had issues with their friendship except that when he wanted to be with her, I had a sense like I was secondary to her. I didnāt like that feeling. Now I know that he was using drugs and didnāt want me to know about it. Anyway, I think friendships are fine as long as the spouse is the most important person.
Lovisa, that was very insightful about male friends not “correcting” or judging you like female friends often might (not all – I also have very non-competitive, non-judgmental female friends!).
That’s something that I value about my male friends as well. But it could also build a false sense of security. Because without the feeling of being judged I obviously open myself up more, there’s possibly oversharing, we get closer, and someone can get the wrong idea.
I also like how straightforward my male friends are, none of that game-playing that women sometimes do (though again, I think I’ve gotten rid of those female friends and only have the best kind left!). But in general women are much more complicated!
Marcia and Trifles,
It has gone back and forth in this exchange between theoretical discussion of whether or not males and females can be platonic friends, and talking about specifics of my LE situation as a case study.
This is why, on Trifles point, I put the (as a woman) etc. into my last reply. A lot of the chat before that was ‘women do X’ and ‘men do Y’ type stuff. That’s why I added the ‘as a woman’ etc. I wanted it to be a point that contributed to the discussion about male-female friendships in general, not one all about myself.
If we are discussing my situation, it’s a doozy to get me on the fact that my LE is “not like any regular platonic friendship”. I have been here on a limerence support site for months venting about the limerent feelings I have towards her, so of course it isn’t. I started this thread admitting as much. All I have ever contended was that a platonic friendship existed between me and her for ten years between two glimmers. It changed, for sure, and I’ve admitted that. But the change was in my head. What I present to her is different. I haven’t ever asked her or hinted to her in word or physical action that I want any more than friendship (whatever I felt or feel inside – actually I know now that I don’t want more but my altered state of mind has tricked me into thinking I do). I know how wrong that would be and wouldn’t do that. I accept there may have been unavoidable ‘leakage’ but it has never been commented on in real life, apart from by one other friend who called me out.
It’s great that you all have different views about male-female friendships. The diversity of views here is a big strength of the place. But only the two people involved know the dynamics of the relationship between them.
If I reformulate to strip out the controversial bit:
āUltimately it is their choice whether to engage with me on the basis I offer”
This is true of any friendship between any two humans (unless there is something bad like controlling behaviour going on).
All I can say is that whether LO suspects the feelings I’ve had or not, she has that choice about whether or not to bother with me as a friend, and has always chosen to bother. In fact she seeks my time and company actively, more than I do hers. I have never forced the issue.
So on that basis it tells me she’s happy to be friends. That’s all I’m claiming.
Or – is it your argument that because she doesn’t know my feelings for sure, it is basically a fake friendship? And do you believe then that I would be doing her a favour by severing the ‘friendship’ myself? If she wanted it severed, why wouldn’t she just sever it?
All of this above is a different question from the other one you’re asking Marcia, about how it could feel from my SO’s perspective and where I am in the wrong in seeking friendship from another female. It’s a fair question and one I am willing to discuss more and be held to account for. But it is a different question from “can men and women be platonic friends?”
Lim-a-rant,
“Or ā is it your argument that because she doesnāt know my feelings for sure, it is basically a fake friendship?”
No, I didn’t mean to imply that.
” And do you believe then that I would be doing her a favour by severing the āfriendshipā myself? If she wanted it severed, why wouldnāt she just sever it?”
I never implied you were harming this woman.
I think it’s more … would I want my SO to have a close friendship with a woman he was limerent for? The answer is no.
I’ve never had a friendship with a man that at some point didn’t have less than platonic elements to it. I don’t know if it’s possible not to. Sexual comments, passes made or an SO thinking we were dating or intending to if/when things ended with them.
Marcia,
“I think itās more ā¦ would I want my SO to have a close friendship with a woman he was limerent for? The answer is no.”
That part I wouldn’t even try to argue (look, I know I am dealing with the LwL poster of the year here š and know when I’m beat). But more seriously I know what you say on this point is true. It’s the toughest bit to deal with – how much to tell SO and when (I have already done bits of it). I am still figuring it out. I am not closed to the idea that I might have to ditch LO as a friend and admit more, to move forward authentically with SO.
Marcia,
ā Iāve never had a friendship with a man that at some point didnāt have less than platonic elements to it. I donāt know if itās possible not to. Sexual comments, passes made or an SO thinking we were dating or intending to if/when things ended with them.ā
It is possible to have a friendship with a man that doesnāt include sexual comments or passes. It is not only possible, but it is wonderful!
Lim-a-rant,
“look, I know I am dealing with the LwL poster of the year here š. ”
That I highly doubt. š I am Maria’s favorite poster, and as you know … we do have a financial arrangement that MJ, being MJ, tried to jam himself into. #Uninvited š
“I am not closed to the idea that I might have to ditch LO as a friend and admit more, to move forward authentically with SO.”
I don’t have too much to add here, but I don’t think there would be anything wrong with telling your LO the truth if you decide you can’t continue the friendship. What’s wrong with telling her you have developed some feelings (I don’t remember what you’ve already told her) and you can’t be friends? That it’s not a good idea. I think that’s preferable to doing the confusing slow fade. If you’ve been friends for a decade, I think it would be nice to give her some sort of explanation. Though it doesn’t have to be a long explanation. And could even be done over the phone or text.
Lovisa,
“It is possible to have a friendship with a man that doesnāt include sexual comments or passes. It is not only possible, but it is wonderful!”
Didn’t you write that two of your guy friends told you they were attracted to you?
Marcia,
lolā¦yes. Good point.
Marcia,
“I think thatās preferable to doing the confusing slow fade.”
Yes. Slow fade here would be mean. I haven’t told her a thing to date. If I had to/opted tobexit the friendship then I agree that disclosing feelings is better and more respectful than trying to vanish.
My preference is more like fade to 50% (pre glimmer#2 level). You dont even need to tell me it ain’t realistic – I kind of already know!
Then there is the sort of person she is – honestly the classic ‘good LO’ stereotype. Based on that, I believe that if I did tell her, then 1. she wouldn’t be 100% shocked, 2. she would be more likely to respond with “ok, we can find a way to work with that, let’s discuss” than “thanks for the decade; right, I agree we must never speak again, see ya”. It risks creating a much bigger mess than I’m in now.
Add to that, we have work overlaps. We used to work directly together, now not so directly but still some times we need to collaborate. If these overlaps go (a realistic future possibility) it might fade more naturally.
So for now, circumstances mean that fading it totally is unrealistic and a disclosure risks creating a work situation where other people tittle tattle.
There’s no great exit option here. I’m just musing to answer your point but am not looking for an answer in reply as I know there is no good one.
In sum – LwL wisdom tends to be “don’t disclose to LO” but there is no way I could exit this one kindly and cleanly without it. I have used disclosure to end two past (all be it less persistent) LEs, so I am not averse to it one day.
MJ, being MJ, tried to jam himself into. #Uninvited š
Marcia,
You were handing out free money and I like you just the same, if not more.
#Offended š
I know that I am late the conversation but I think, at least on men’s side, that it is very difficult to be platonic with a woman. I had a huge crush on my wife’s cousin when I first met her, within the first year that we got married. Did Miss Lovisa help me out a lot when I first came here? Do I have a crush on her or am I just happy she has been so helpful to me? LO started out platonic and look where that went. I think, at least for myself, but also looking at the limerent men on this board that we have a hard time compartmentalizing women’s gesture and comments. And look into kindness or politeness more than we should. Momma and I were friends first. While she watched me chase other gals. Instinct/God put waaaaay to much drive in us to “fill the earth”.
MJ,
“You were handing out free money and I like you just the same, if not more.”
Just what every woman longs to hear: I like you just the same.
#HardPass š
MJ,
Look on the bright side.
At least Marcia hasn’t asked you to stop responding to her posts…yet. š
LE,
“At least Marcia hasnāt asked you to stop responding to her postsā¦yet. š”
Apparently LE is trying to get himself put back on the Naughty Chair. š
“Just what every woman longs to hear: I like you just the same.
#HardPass š”
Marcia,
I didn’t know you felt so strongly about our friendship. Please forgive me for another blatant misunderstanding..
#Confused š¤š
“At least Marcia hasnāt asked you to stop responding to her postsā¦yet. š”
LE,
She can’t help it. I think deep down she really likes me. She’s just playing hard to get.. š
MJ,
“I think deep down she really likes me. Sheās just playing hard to get.”
Nah. I don’t put up much of a fight if I like the guy. š
“Looking at the limerent men on this board that we have a hard time compartmentalizing womenās gesture and comments. And look into kindness or politeness more than we should.”
@Adam,
100%+ agree with you on this one. Gesture alone was probably the most sole reason for my LE and I wonder if I’ll ever be right again.
Because now I read into Lady Friends kindness waaaay more than I probably should. This is just who she is though and it drives me freakin crazy. I try not to fawn all over her when I’m around, but I know I leak like crazy. Since we’re both single, I enjoy the hell out of the chase.. I like to think she enjoys the extra attention and me being me, she’s probably already used to it by now.
The good thing is I know her well enough to know when she’s had enough or not in the mood. That alone keeps me in my place but man is it hard to keep things “light”when I so want to go “next level.”
@Lovisa.
“I must admit that an old boyfriend had a female friend who he sometimes preferred over me. I couldnāt figure out why he liked her because she wasnāt very likable. I did have the thought that whatever he was getting from her, he should get from me. Later, I discovered that she was his dealer.”
I must admit that I found your musings here extremely funny. Funny as in: “That’s a plot twist I didn’t see coming.” She was his … what? š²
A gifted writer could craft an entire short story around this one paragraph. And the theme of the story could be that things aren’t always what they appear to be on the surface. š
Yesterday evening, I peered out of the kitchen window and thought I saw a fire in my backyard. I started panicking. What could have possibly caught fire? A palm tree? Some fencing? Then I looked closer – nothing was on fire. The ripple of coloured light that I mistook for fire was moonlight reflecting off the swimming pool. š
Thanks Sammy, youāre right, it is funny that she was his dealer. I didnāt see that coming until he broke up with me and told me about his drug problem. He didnāt think he could quit drugs and he knew I wouldnāt remain partnered to him if/when I found out about the drugs so he cut things off. It hurt at the time, but now I admire him for it.
Iām glad that your pool-fire wasnāt as serious as you initially thought. Now Iām curious about where you live. California? Florida? Maybe you arenāt even American.
@Lovisa.
“Thanks Sammy, youāre right, it is funny that she was his dealer.”
Dr Bellamy wrote above that he wanted to explore the idea of “dating and mate selection”. Maybe you gave him an unexpected ending to his proposed story? š¤£
Ten Alpha Chad is always seen hanging around Five Girl Next Door. The whole neighbourhood is whispering. “Why is he with her? What does he see in her? It’s not her looks. Why are some girls so lucky?”
Turns out Girl Next Door has developed a nasty little drug habit. Alpha Chad isn’t her paramour, but her dealer. He’s always hanging around because she’s his number-one client. The secrecy around their relationship stems from the fact she’s trying to hide her addiction to chemical substances from family and friends. Alpha Chad enjoys working on the nice, safe, gentrified side of town.
Or perhaps both members of this couple develop limerence for each other. But the limerence partially grows out of the stress of keeping their shared secret i.e. that they are both involved in high-risk behaviour. The risks they both take creates a trauma bond, and heightens the intensity of their otherwise pedestrian romance.
A third scenario could be Girl Next Door has a rescuer complex and wants to help Alpha Chad return to life on the straight and narrow. Perhaps Alpha Chad also falls in love with the woman who wants to save him? He’s tired of life in the fast lane. He wants to retire soon.
Just a throwaway comment. But it can be fun to tie together random, unrelated ideas into a nice little parcel that seems to make sense. Human brains like the certainty that comes with closure. š
@Marcia.
There’s a rumour going around that you’re “Poster of the Year” or “Miss Congeniality” or something. That’s too bad, honey. Really it is. Because I’m up for “Lifetime Achievement Award”. Aren’t you jealous? What, you’re not jealous? Why are you jealous? š¤£
I’ve already prepared my acceptance speech. Do you want to hear it? You haven’t got time to hear it? Oh, fiddlesticks! I’ll tell it to you anyway. It’s a line I’m stealing from drag artist Charles Pierce. He said it while pretending to be screen legend Bette Davis:
“And now I’d like to perform a scene for you … from ALL of my films.”
No, just mucking around. On a serious note, I’d like to say that I’m adding my vote to the ones that have already nominated you “Poster of the Year”. And I’m very proud of all you’ve achieved while at LwL. It’s very hard to combine likeability with … wait, what are your other talents? š
Let’s put it another way: I always enjoy reading your posts. Your short posts. Your extremely short posts. Why are they so short? š
Sammy,
How badly do you want to score the Limerent Lifetime Achievement Award?
As Creator and Director of “The Limmys,” I have some influence on who gets what. Being from Chicago, everything’s negotiable. But, everything has to be in US dollars in the form of a donation to the Limerent Emeritus Foundation for Wayward Limerents or to support an endowment to the Limerent Emeritus Chair at the forthcoming Limerence University (LU) to be held by me.
DrL, as Executive Producer and future President of LU, is above such banality (he gets 20%). I snagged the first Lifetime Achievement Award.
And, if Marcia puts me back on the Naughty Chair, I’ll toss her as a judge on Dancing with the Limerents and she’ll have to return all those evening gowns. Two can play at that game.
Sammy!
“Because Iām up for āLifetime Achievement Awardā. Arenāt you jealous? What, youāre not jealous? Why are you jealous? š¤£”
I’m not jealous. They only give the Lifetime Achievement Award to posters who have peaked and are well past their prime posting years. Like a rock star who’s doing a greatest hits tour because no one want to hear his new music. š
“Iāve already prepared my acceptance speech. Do you want to hear it?”
I don’t have that much time left on this planet. š
“āAnd now Iād like to perform a scene for you ā¦ from ALL of my films.ā”
LOL. And Better Davis would have done that!
“And Iām very proud of all youāve achieved while at LwL. Itās very hard to combine likeability with ā¦ wait, what are your other talents? š”
Is likeability one of my talents? š
“Letās put it another way: I always enjoy reading your posts. Your short posts. Your extremely short posts. Why are they so short? š”
Because I’m a good editor of my own material. š
LE,
“And, if Marcia puts me back on the Naughty Chair, Iāll toss her as a judge on Dancing with the Limerents and sheāll have to return all those evening gowns. Two can play at that game.”
I’m going to quote Glenn Close in the movie “Fatal Attraction.”
“You play fair with me. I’ll play fair with you.”
Marcia,
lol ššš
@Limerent Emeritus.
“I snagged the first Lifetime Achievement Award.”
Well, perhaps it’s only fair you snagged the first Lifetime Achievement Award. I mean, you DO have seniority. How old are you now, my friend? Methuselah called. Methuselah who? Methuselah from the Bible, of course. He wants his crossbow back. And his tent. And his favourite sheepskin rug. And his sundial. And his map of the Garden of Eden. š
And not to belabour the point. But how many LOs have you had now? Four LOs? My, my! Such an impressive record! You know what they say – four LOs is four LOs too many. Are you a glutton for punishment or do you just like even numbers? š
Whatever wit first grumbled the line “no good deed goes unpunished” was surely thinking of you and your compulsive need to rescue flame-haired damsels in distress. But I think your wife delivered the true zinger of the century when she was duly apprised of the situation: “Good luck – you’re going to need it!” š
Has the Award been handed to you in an official ceremony yet? I understand you have Jaideux reading envelopes at the LImmys? Is this correct? I suspect Jaideux is a very shy, modest, unassuming person. I like Jaideux. I think she’ll need some moral support while doing her job. Maybe I can be Jaideux’s sidekick for the night? š
If anyone is delivering speeches, I imagine Marcia will want to edit them for the sake of brevity. We can’t have the event running overtime, can we? Some of us have important rumination to rush back to. Marcia likely has brownies burning in the oven. š
I do have one question about the Limmys. Are you going to feed us? Is it an event for people who believe in eating potatoes or an event for people who only pretend to believe in eating potatoes? Dumb question. Chicago. Of course you believe in eating potatoes. š
You know, people say I got fat. People don’t know what they’re talking about when they say I got fat. I didn’t get fat. The couch shrank. And the house. And the car. And every single item in my wardrobe. I used to be a beanstalk. I used to weigh less than a feather. Now I’m three of the nicest men I know. Bulldozers and army tanks daintily move aside to let me waddle past. š
By the way, a quick question: has anyone bothered to tell She-Who-Spells-Her-Name-In-Emojis that moustache-removal cream is a make-believe product? It’s not even sold in Australia. No, I quite understand. I wouldn’t tell her either – ignorance is bliss. š
Sammy, was that an audition for your opening monologue? I pity the fools who are in charge of playing the “wrap it up” music! Their poor fingers! (And poor Jaideaux)
By the way, I’m sure we can get a mustache removal cream maker to be the main sponsor for the televised event.
Itās questionable if that CAT even existed or was she stolen/shipped to Springfield of Ohio? š„¹
Ignorance brings dumb bliss, imagination creates preferred bliss and reverie.
@Triflers
I vote you to be the CEO of that Mustache Remover Incorporation.
Sammy,
” But how many LOs have you had now? Four LOs? My, my! Such an impressive record! You know what they say ā four LOs is four LOs too many. ”
I feel the same way about children. Or pets. š
“If anyone is delivering speeches, I imagine Marcia will want to edit them for the sake of brevity.”
No, we’re just going to have the orchestra play over people who ramble on too long. We’re limerents, after all. We have no boundaries. š
Snow, I’m flattered, but no need for me to be CEO. A quick Google reveals lots of very real mustache removal creams (and companies behind them). They are just called “facial hair removal creams”. Not to mention the mustache removal filters that could be even more handy for our online community!
I can however be Chief Liaison Officer (can be understood two ways, so will likely be a double role) in charge of snagging the sponsor, amongst other things.
@Trifles,
Oh, no. Please donāt select and bring any mustache remover cream here; otherwise, WHAT could help some greedy mouths š catch and hide those famous browniesā
@Sammy
Those would be my brownies! Mine are celebrated in my little circle. š This is just such an occasion to make them.
Looks like brownies are in shortage, how about some mooncakes š„®? Theyāre unique with an egg yolk and lotus seed paste inside, symbolizing harmonious and sensuous unions under the Moonā¦
@ghostzoned
The survey is very interesting. I wonder why the INF (and to a lesser extent INT) groups are especially prone to limerence. Would love to figure that out. High degree of sensitivity and analytical thinking?
DrL did ask the interesting question about whether IN’s are just more likely to seek/find a limerence website and fill out a survey. But I think there is more to it than that too.
I think it’s good you saw the early warning signs and gray-rocked her, especially if she was exactly your type.
I am interested in your idea of ‘the click’. I haven’t seen it called that before. What does it mean to you? I guess you mean when a glimmer turns into something else -something like “this is a definite opportunity / problem (delete whichever fits in the circumstances)”?
I think it’s because we yearn for that all-or-nothing, fantasy love.
This actually makes us vulnerable to cluster B’s, particularly with their lovebombing.
(search: INFJ narcissist prey, or some such)
https://herway.net/this-is-why-an-infj-is-a-narcissists-most-common-victim/
https://www.jennydobson.com/library/why-infjs-attract-narcissists
https://medium.com/@jenniferarnspiger/this-is-what-its-like-to-be-an-infj-survivor-of-narcissistic-abuse-9097ff4dae0
https://introvertspring.com/infjs-attract-narcissist-personalities/
We’re also willing to put up with a lot more bullshit.
I know that I personally get a frisson of excitement whenever I meet someone new and spot those telltale scratches on the inner wrist..
Not exactly a glimmer, but a recognition that this person (usually a young lady) could be very interesting to me.. and very very dangerous.
(Of course most cluster B’s don’t self harm, and rarely in such an obvious manner, that’s just an example.)
And in some ways, our needs are indeed congruent with cluster B’s, who want something similar, and also eschew social norms (the main difference being that C B’s don’t care who they hurt, and blame others for their bad behaviour).
I’m now safely married in mutual nonlimerence to a very grounded woman.
But I’ve had my share of.. interesting and character building relationships.
Gray rocking is actually quite difficult to do, when you’re trying hard to suppress hyperventilation and palpitations!
So I’m guessing that I wasn’t entirely successful, and my mixed messages perhaps spurred LO’s curiousity.
In the end, I gave her the validation she sought, and I got the NC I needed (but did not want).
The glimmer, for me, is a visual recognition that the person is of high interest to me.
The ‘click’ is a verbal, or auditory cue that I am of high interest to her – it’s not so much what is said, but how.
The energy, so to speak.
I guess, combined, it’s just known as ‘chemistry’.
@Adam,
I am very much like you in the sense that I would get really strong crushes on certain people, and it was very hard to remain platonic. So it does amaze me when women can have completely platonic friendships with men. I just have learned I am not built like that. If a man interests me enough to interact with him, there’s a good chance consciously or subconsciously I would want “all of him.” The good thing that I know about myself is that I am not at all attracted to married men, so many of my coworkers are happily married and we enjoy a healthy coworkership while at work.
@Lovisa,
I wonder if your upbringing with a difficult mother, and my upbringing with a difficult father, has any part in why you really prefer male friendships and I prefer female friendships? Just a thought I had! I tend to have more trust with women because I had a safe, loving relationship with my mother, and maybe you have more trust with men because you had a better relationship eith your father?
LN, I have wondered the same thing. The women in my life (including my sister) were unpredictable and even abusive at times. The men were reliable and kind. I have always felt anxious around women and safe around men. I guess it could go the other way for you if your female caregivers were the reliable ones. Very interestingā¦
My brother has been reflecting on our childhood because of the situation with my sister. Yesterday he said, āI always thought we had a good childhood, but when I think back on some of the stuff that grandma and mom did to us, I think we were abused.ā Then he told me about an incident when my grandmother told him to strip naked and get into the shower then she scrubbed him with a wire-bristle brush. He was 15 years old. I told him that what grandma did was wrong then I told him how she did something similar to me, my sister and our brother who is close to us in age. My grandma said we were dirty because we tan easily and we had spent the whole summer at the pool. I was going into 4th grade at the time. My grandma made all three of us get naked and get into the tub so she could āscrub the filthā off us. She used a Brillo pad on our knees and called us āfilthy Indians.ā We cried and told her that she couldnāt scrub off our tans. It was awful. When my brother told me about the incident with the wire brush, the only thing that surprised me is that he was 15 when she did that to him. I wasnāt surprised that she did it. I didnāt know that my older brothers were being treated badly by my grandmother, too. I only saw her do it to the siblings and cousins who are close to my age.
LN, I think you are right, but I donāt know how to overcome my mistrust of women.
@Lovisa,
You are welcome to practice your trust in women with Mme– I’m reliable! š
And also, Sammy is Australian. But I am from Cali! š
LaR, I was actually debating on an intellectual level, it wasn’t even about your case – just the concepts in the current conversation.
I find male-female friendships interesting. I hope they’re possible, but once you get into a deeper (beyond superficial) level, there are risks involved. And for the record, I am on team “don’t disclose ‘thought crimes’ to SO”. I wish I was the kind who could have a relationship and still enjoy flirtations with others – to spice up my main relationship. I’ve come to understand that would really help in maintaining a long term relationship. But for me, it seems to be all or nothing – if I find someone interesting, I find them reeeaaally interesting.
Hey all,
As a 50 year old woman, I find it fascinating that there are all these friendships out there. Although I have had mixed groups of friends (men and women) all my life, I no longer really have male friends that I do stuff with alone regularly. At work, it sometimes happens that I have coffee with a male friend and it might happen once in a blue moon that us and our SOs will end up at dinner or a gig. Friendships that go beyond work are more and more rare because I spend so much time at work (very demanding job where I work far more than contracted hours).
My non-work friends that I tend to spend time with (and am more emotionally intimate with) are female friendships that I have had for decades, plus new female friendships, other kids mums or friends from work. I don’t see enough of any of my non-work friends (and sometimes their partners). Most of the friends I see regularly are at work and we mostly see each other when we are at work. These can be both men and women but there is not a lot of scope for major emotional intimacy (short coffee break or quick sandwich).
I am fascinated by all the people who are around my age who are cultivating friends of either sex.
To me, a platonic friendship is totally possible; I feel very comfortable socializing alone with them without ever feeling sexually attracted, even if they are good looking. The glimmer occurs in 5 seconds of encountering a total stranger (without them spotting me first) ; either it is there or canāt be ever cultivated even after my attempts with efforts and time. So itās either 0 or 100% for life time!
But it seems near impossible for men to keep a platonic friendship with me; So I did!do not have platonic, Close male friends; plenty of so-so acquaintance.
@Bewitched
I’m a neurodivergent introvert, so a lot of my friendships are either online or at church/clubs. I may get together now and then with old friends for lunch or dinner, but mostly my interaction is when our groups get together. I also send e-mails to some friends or interact with them on Facebook or other social media. I have a male friend from church who I got close with and e-mail now and then, but even with him we just see each other at church, when he has the time to attend. He’s much younger and I do think he’s hot, but he’s gay, so it’s platonic. š As for LO–it’s e-mails, the occasional text, and church. Since LO is very attracted to me, I don’t ask for more interaction than that, because I *know* what would happen if we went off alone together for long….Best to keep it to church and church functions!
My in-person friend interactions aren’t a ton, but for me they are usually enough. They get me out of the house. My online friends are all over the Net, and a lot of them are male, but platonic (even though some get flirty). Since we’re mostly pixels on-screen to each other, I doubt there’s any real crushing going on there. One online friend actually moved to my town but he and his wife turned out to be toxic, so we had to break off relations with them, unfortunately.
Hi Trifles,
Thank you for replying and clarifying.
I agree with what you’re saying deep down. I know, despite never stepping over certain lines, that the way LO has hijacked my brain means it is ‘not just platonic’, and feel regret about where it has gone. I have been aware of the slippery slope I’m on and have been fighting it like the clappers for ages. Truth is, LO would lose respect for me if I did overstep lines anyway – she is very ‘girl code’ (and rightly so). It just has to sit there in the background and I have to be strong while it runs its course.
Thanks for saying about “team don’t disclose thought crimes”. We can’t help where our thoughts take us. I have learned such a lot. In hindsight, I steadily let my guard down in the run up to glimmer#2 and left it ripe to happen. Won’t be doing this again.
The decade of ‘platonic friendship’ before that is the really interesting quirk. Was it always destined to end as it did, even though it took all that time to get there?!
My SO has always allowed me platonic female friendships. We are not that couple who expect to get everything we need in life from the other. All the other said platonic friendships are different (actually platonic). It is just this one that went nuts.
Snow,
“The glimmer occurs in 5 seconds of encountering a total stranger”
I am coming round to this idea, but for me it is more like a pre-glimmer that then can go somewhere or nowhere (to full glimmer) based on personality and the person’s actions. Where that first part isn’t there, nothing personality wise is that likely to trigger glimmer further down the line.
I also have a platonic single female friend.
No chance of attraction between us.
Used to have a couple more single female friends, all through work, but had to distance myself from them, for SO’s sake.
One is a lot of fun, flirty.. and freshly divorced. Zero interest in romance, at least from me.
The other is ostensibly good looking (as am I, imho), but not each other’s type. People at work had tried to ship us once, which we could laugh about, but understandably SO didn’t feel comfortable.
There are few male friends who I’d open up to.
Only one could I call non-judgemental.
I’m not sure if being male or female gives any particular qualities to the relationship, I think it’s just about compatible personalities.
I don’t think the gender or sexual orientation matters.
I think all that matters, for friendship, is the connection – without compilation of romance.
So yeah, having male + female friendship is totally possible.. so long as there’s no potential romantic interest.
(ie not actually sexually compatible)
@Lim-a-rant.
Here are some more thoughts for you. I think I remember reading you are in the limbo stage of limerence, correct? Where on the limerence flow-chart do you think limbo is located exactly? Do you think it might be just before crystallised limerence? I.e. late honeymoon phase where you realise things probably aren’t going to pan out with LO but you don’t want to give up the highs yet?
From what I’ve read online, some people in crystallised limerence come home from work and scream into pillows. I know it sounds really silly and funny. But it’s not a fun feeling to someone who’s actually in that headspace, and can’t get out of that headspace. Maybe that’s the ultimate fate people are trying to help you avoid?
I.e. maybe what other limerents are trying to convey to you in various clumsy ways is: “Don’t let limerence spin out of control to the point where you’re coming home from work and screaming in pillows because you can’t control your feelings of mental agony, etc”. It’s a slippery slope that ends in … pillow-screaming at best.
(Pillow-screaming = profound feelings of sadness and longing. And I think plenty of anger and aggression mixed up in there too. But the anger/aggression is kind of impotent/infantile in nature – the kind of rage an infant would have if denied the comfort of its mother’s breast for too long. It’s a feeling of not ever being able to get comfortable in one’s own skin no matter what one does. It’s not an enviable state. And it’s a state well worth avoiding if one can).
I did my fair share of pillow-screaming as a teenager. It wasn’t dignified back then. I’m sure it’s even less dignified in a 50-year-old. It’s certainly not something one can do in front of one’s spouse and offspring – not without creating feelings of alarm and concern.
Perhaps a good question for limerents to ask themselves is: “If I truly love my LO so much, why do my feelings of love for this man/woman make my life feel unbearable? Why do I feel like I’m dying? Why do I feel like I’m drowning?”
Wishing you well, buddy. Not being preachy or anything. I just wanted to explain the opposition to limerence you may sometimes encounter, and why it might be difficult to understand such opposition if you’ve never screamed into a pillow. The LO isn’t to blame for the suffering. It’s the addiction itself that makes people miserable. But no one really sees addiction coming until it’s too late.
Of course, you’re an adult and are free to live out your fantasy life as you see fit, since fantasy alone doesn’t hurt others. People who warn you off limerence, however, are trying to do you a favour. š
Trifles,
If you search the archives below and search for “friends,” you get 4 hits.
There was a great article on Thought Catalog several years ago, https://thought.is/can-a-man-and-a-woman-really-have-a-platonic-relationship/.
Lai says, “The truth is, they may never do anything physical in life. They may never cross the line. But a relationship can never be truly platonic if you have to set up boundaries. A relationship can never be truly platonic if you have to adjust your feelings. A relationship can never truly be platonic if you have to pretend that you are happy with the way things really areā¦when deep downāyou want something more.”
This should be less of a problem for unattached limerents unless your LO is, say, a coworker, where disclosure can have catastrophic consequences.
This is exactly where I was with LO #4. In her goodbye, LO #4 said that I couldn’t keep things platonic. I agreed with her and quoted the lines about boundaries and adjusting feelings in my response.
Everybody’s different. I fall into the “exes are exes for a reason” camp. Two of my LOs are exes. An LO may or not be an ex, but to me a non-ex LO is worse because that reason(s) are different and there are often unresolved questions associated with the decision.
Like anything else, what doesn’t work for some people can work for others. And, like most things in life, there are unintended consequences and potential risks involved.
At some point, you decide whether to roll the dice or not.
Now I wonder at the frequent usage of the word āplatonicā. I wouldnāt describe my male friendships as platonic because they are not close/intense enough. I always thought platonic is a form of intense love without physical aspects, but still quite intense.
I donāt have that kind of friend, neither male nor female. Iām close and intense with my SO and heās my best friend too, but obviously not platonic; my other friends are more casual in varying degrees. Some are clearly work friends, with two I have infrequent contact but can talk to them/love them more than some I see often, etc.
A friendship with a man in the intensity of platonic love, I think thatās not quite possible for me, either me or the friend wouldnāt be able to keep it free of physical elements.
I still can have quite warm, affectionate usual friendships with men.
P.s. I mean, the closest male friend I had was LO, and as the friendship intensified because of his impending moving away, I developed limerence. Before that, all was good, warm, but not intense platonic love.
Mila, I think the word platonic, as it’s used in everyday life, simply means: non-romantic. I.e. friendship.
@LaR,
āI am coming round to this idea, but for me it is more like a pre-glimmer that then can go somewhere or nowhere (to full glimmer) based on personality and the personās actions. Where that first part isnāt there, nothing personality wise is that likely to trigger glimmer further down the line.ā
For me, there is no pre- or post-glimmer, itās just one Glimmer that was very raw, instinctual, out of blue, out of total expectation or judgmentā¦ In 5 seconds. In Sammyās words, āItās the Unconscious that made a choiceā for me, not my logical mind.
In hindsight, in that 5 seconds I saw something very FAMILIAR, like seeing a piece of myself, in LOās eyes. Only eyes and their expressions in their ānaturalā states (without spotting me first) matter, nothing else. If he has spotted me first, even without reacting, then my glimmer would not take place. I think I know why thisā¦.
Later, where this rare glimmer would lead, Iām very similar to your ways. With glimmer, a relationship (not platonic) may or may not develop; without it, nothing, except platonic friendship, could ever been cultivated. In all cases, I chose firmly walking away, leaving no false hopes to the other side. (Most of them were annoying without a strong sense of SELF or inspiring traits.)
In the latter, men appear gender neutral to me, I would not blink my eyes if they strip off their clothes in front of my naked eyes (proven to be true unexpectedly). So I think I can safely say my Glimmer comes from my DNAā¦ nothing in the civilized world could alter its BLIND aim.
There were three men yesterday hitting on tired me: at work, passing by a restaurant promotion for a free drink, and after tutoring a single fatherās 6 yrs kidā¦ I had to find different excuses to ārunāā¦
L.E, that’s a good, albeit short, article you linked. I meant exactly the same phenomenon of starting to feel really “safe” and “seen” with the friend, and thus letting down one’s guard.
I’m not sure if you were referring to “my case” or just my general musings. I know my current “friendship” is not exactly a normal friendship, and he knows it too. But we’re making do with – not the cards we’re given – but the dice we’ve rolled.
As for your comment about exes, I wouldn’t call my transferee an ex because we were never together. Just a short fling bookended by much longer friendship. A relationship never developed due to distance, but also, I think, because there wasn’t enough passion (i.e. limerence?). I’m wondering if I can still build it up into limerence in my head now…
But somehow I think I can talk myself out if it (because of the missing passion before). There I understand what you mean by exes being less dangerous as (potential) LO’s. I’ve read that book already, I know the plot – it could never be as exciting as an unopened book.
āThe truth is, they may never do anything physical in life. They may never cross the line. But a relationship can never be truly platonic if you have to set up boundaries. A relationship can never be truly platonic if you have to adjust your feelings. A relationship can never truly be platonic if you have to pretend that you are happy with the way things really areā¦when deep downāyou want something more.ā
This very true. If you realize you are holding back, not being yourself, realizing the behavior you desire is the wrong behavior, or feel guilt over anything you have said or acted out; that indeed is not a healthy platonic friendship. When others can witness the change in your behavior and personality that’s another red flag.
My worse red flag that I ignored and tried to justify was giving gifts. Whether it be something I think would like or buying her favorite foods and drinks and surprise her with them. And then lie to myself it was for everyone else in the office. Like $50 at an expensive coffee shop that was her favorite spot by buying everyone something so it didn’t look like special treatment for her. Giving gift to someone shouldn’t make you feel guilty if you know it is okay to do so.
Hey all,
Limerent Emeritus said “a non-ex LO is worse because that reason(s) are different and there are often unresolved questions associated with the decision.”
I can see that an LO who has not been an ex would indeed be ‘worse’ and harder to get over. This is the case for me and I imagine that the unresolved nature of a non-disclosed LO must be one of the most difficult cases in limerence.
To those people who have had multiple LEs, what do you think marks one of your LOs out as being the most difficult to get over? Or were they all more or less the same? The reason I ask is that I have only had one LE and it has been devastating. Although I am coming out of it now, I cant imagine doing this twice. And I can’t imagine every being totally over him. Is that ever true?
I mean, I have seen people post that they woke up one say and it was just gone, somehow. I cant imagine that ever happening to me.
Are you guys still in thrall to any of your LOs, even a little bit, for example do you think you could fall again if exposed to them? And if so, why / what was it about them do you think that caused this to be the case?
@Bewitched
I think the hardest to get over were the abusive ones because of all the trauma they left in their wake. It took me many years to heal. The nicer ones, whether we dated or not, I could still have pleasant memories of them.
As for whether they could start up again–I have occasionally felt little sparks over the years for some of them. Recently I looked up one LO on Facebook–At 60 years old, he’s still hot, so yeah, I felt some sparks for a few days remembering him. We live in different counties and haven’t seen each other for years, but we were very close and flirty once, and I can see that boiling up again.
“I have only had one LE and it has been devastating. Although I am coming out of it now, I cant imagine doing this twice.”
@Bewitched,
This is where I believe I am at this point. My one true glimmer, beyond a doubt was over LO. There’s just no getting around and yes most devastating to say the least. Just by its failure at almost every turn. I also often wonder if I will ever be totally over her because the whole idea surrounding her still intrigues me. I’m also pretty sure if we were still working in the same building, in close proximity to each other, I’d still be trying my luck. Perhaps even being worse off and making an even bigger fool of myself. I’ll probably never know.
What I do know too is I can’t do this limerence thing twice. Lady Friend is awesome and in so many ways could make for a fantastic LO. But not for me. I struggle enough trying to just be a good, simple and trusting friend to her and I’m really grateful for getting things to where they are. I just don’t know if I can keep it truly platonic and not try to step things up..
I feel often like the potential is there to advance things but I’m not pushing anything or becoming bothersome to her about it because I also know she’s not ready for it. It just drives me crazy because I still catch her checking me out at times when I least expect it. When she smiles at me or looks deep into my eyes, I want to pass out. It’s such a high.
I tell myself that’s not glimmer. It’s not, it can’t be. This person doesn’t move my emotional hard wiring like LO did. Is this wrong? Will I never know??
Hi Bewitched,
interesting question.
I count three LEs, and I transferred from one to another. They were each the ropes I pulled myself out of the last LE.
I think there will always be a residue of past attraction somewhere in the brain, heart or wherever such things are stored. I really would love it if LO 1 would leave work and I would never see him again. Not only because he reminds me of my mistakes, but because he really isnāt a good person, heās insufferable and I cannot stand more than 2 min conversation with him anymore, I completely misjudged him back then. But in rare moments, I can still feel the physical pull and can see what I liked, and even feel affection. Thatās true for all three, but since Iām still friends with the other two, itās more astounding to me in the case of this guy.
Iām sure I wonāt be limerent for him ever again, this fire has burnt down. But then, there was mutual disclosure. I cannot really compare that to the other 2. Mutual disclosure is very hard to get over, but when itās over, it really is, there is no unfinished business.
With the other two Iām not so sure. LO 2 has still a special place in my heart, and Iām glad he left town , found a woman and now just got his first child.
I think, when I let someone into my heart, thereās always a tiny little place for them forever, and I also mean exes whom I havenāt been limerent for, who were just ānormalā boyfriends. It might be the neuronal pathway thing Dr L talks about, ways that I have trodden down but chosen not to walk anymore, but they are still there. I just choose not to walk on them anymore, and the important thing is, that Iām now in a state of mind where I am capable of choosing.
Bewitched,
“what do you think marks one of your LOs out as being the most difficult to get over?”
Challenge accepted, I will take a punt at this.
I have three past crushes or LOs who I want to mention (even though you only asked for one!). With all these three I think I could backslide if they came back into my life (they won’t). With any others I am pretty confident not. The durations since I have seen these three women are 28, 25 and 13 years. I will call them LO1, 2 and 3 for ease (LO4 is the current one for future reference but not going to bring her into this post!). There are other candidates for the list but this is nice and neat and tidy and they are the strongest ones, so maybe the others are better described as crushes.
I will say some common points to the three. The initial glimmers were the closest things to ‘shazams’ (to use Marcia’s word) that I have had and more physical in nature than other glimmers. None were consummated, they all had disclosures of a kind, all closed off with ‘unfinished business’ and none of them ended badly.
LO1 – undisclosed in words (I was single but too shy) but I leaked it all over the shop, and mutual friends said bits, so she knew alright. We just drifted apart as life has a habit of doing, leaving stuff unresolved.
LO2 – the strongest and the one I am certain would trip me up if I met her again. I asked her out more than once and occasionally we had casual drinks, other times she ducked it. Never went any further. Years later after I was in a LTR, she came onto me really heavy at a work event, tried to kiss me and said “isn’t this what you wanted all along?”. I didn’t go there as I was coupled by then, but it was a fight not to. It proved she knew all along and I got a degree of reciprocation back but at a point I couldn’t act, where I didn’t get the reciprocation earlier when I could act. Like a disclosure in the end. Very frustrating situation – don’t give it much thought now but when I do, it still irks me as “promised land left unexplored”. Again just drifted rather than any conscious NC decision.
LO3 – whirlwind summer thing at work and even though we were both unavailable, it ended with her disclosing feelings and me in return, the night before she moved away. We agreed NC was the only way and stuck to it apart from one failed attempt each to ‘circle back’.
The ones easier to get over either faded naturally (feelings weakened), were snuffed out by an unreciprocated disclosure, or I had a few transfers. One really bad ending with someone I now know was a narcissist.
I’ve rambled but does this answer your question? Hope there is some insight in there somewhere!
@Sammy,
“People who warn you off limerence, however, are trying to do you a favour. š”
I get this completely. I have not been offended with anything anyone on LwL has said to me. I was nervous to start posting because I thought I might get negative responses but it hasn’t happened. Some people want a bit of a spar, but I like a spar too and nobody here has attacked me personally. I get where other limerents come from and the pain many experience.
“Where on the limerence flow-chart do you think limbo is located exactly? Do you think it might be just before crystallised limerence? I.e. late honeymoon phase where you realise things probably arenāt going to pan out with LO but you donāt want to give up the highs yet?”
A couple of things first. We need to work out a shared reference point for ‘crystallised limerence’. I believe DrL uses it for the bit after the glimmer where you realise ‘this is definitely an LE’. But I think you mean crystallised more in the sense of the Neurosparkle article we discussed before (when limerence becomes problematic and more painful than good).
Let’s go with the Neurosparkle sense for now. I have no clue how long these phases can take. I will explain events in my LE over a ~18 month cycle. This seems a longish time. One take on it would say I have been through all the phases, another says it is just a long honeymoon phase with the worst stuff still to come. I never had a realistic sense that LO and I would get together, so don’t have as much getting over the ‘not panning out’ to do as Dr Bain suggests on Neurosparkle.
Let’s imagine the LE as a slot machine that pays out intermittent dopamine rewards. These are the phases I have had:
Phase 1 – paying into machine almost without consciously knowing I was doing it – regular, fairly predictable and growing dopamine rewards.
Phase 2 – rewards get less regular and I have to pay in more to get them. By then, I know I’m doing it and know I shouldn’t be
Phase 3 – More of a hell phase – the rewards still come but much less predictably and at more cost. Feel like I have lost the manual for how to play the machine.
Phase 4 – I start to realise how to play the machine again – lower costs, lower rewards, but more predictable and affordable.
I don’t know for sure yet if phase 4 is just a dip on the up part of the limerence cycle (ie the worse crystallisation is still ahead) or more than the cycle has run its course and I can get out of it soon.
After phase 1 and 2 I have been quite “mind over matter” about it and mostly (but not always) my executive brain has won out.
If the machine was taken away I would miss the dopamine rewards a lot, but I think with time I could live without it.
I have never reached a (literal) pillow-hitting point but have had a lot of moments where my brain is hijacked by LO and I can’t tune her out or concentrate properly on anything else. This has now diminished a bit. I would have once got hung up on every little detail of communication between us (exaggeration but like: “she hasn’t replied after 5 minutes, what have I done wrong?”) but I worry less about such things now and just see it more as ‘normal communication quirks between normal people’.
Thanks for your other replies. The language hat-tip I appreciate, the Myers Briggs I will get back to you on when I have time.
Over to you, Mr Lifetime Achievement!!
@Bewitched,
Iād like to attempt to address your challenging questions, only from my experience, of course ā
āI can see that an LO who has not been an ex would indeed be āworseā and harder to get over.ā
Not necessarily for me, who did not have SO in most of my crushes and small āLEsā. I could not call them ex, either, even after they āreciprocatedā with either body or mind. I rarely felt truly connected with them during those LEs. Some remained enigmatic, most had disappointing/insufferable flaws upon a close look.
āThis is the case for me and I imagine that the unresolved nature of a non-disclosed LO must be one of the most difficult cases in limerence.ā
If LO is a decent one overall and remains a certain degree of enigmatic, itās harder to get over, regardless disclosed or not. For me, only good LO memories stay in time and space, while negative ones, at best, passes the mind like gray clouds serenely.
āTo those people who have had multiple LEs, what do you think marks one of your LOs out as being the most difficult to get over?ā
If that LO genuinely cares for our wellbeing, not his/her own first. But I found this question seems to be focusing on LO, not on possible causes or situations of our LEs. All my LEs had something to do with my cptsd; however, if my symptoms were worse in one LE, then that LO was harder to get over because I clung him more for magical solutions. Otherwise, my more sounding mind could cut LO/LE off like a quick sword cutting through tangled hemp.
āOr were they all more or less the same?ā
They are more or less the same, depending on our mental states and life situations for the time being. They did not ask for or chase after our mysterious glimmer or XXX-sized infatuation. Our brain started the whole process for whatever reasons.
āThe reason I ask is that I have only had one LE and it has been devastating. Although I am coming out of it now, I cant imagine doing this twice. And I canāt imagine ever being totally over him. Is that ever true?ā
Every limerentās LE is different, we could only compare with our own previous LEs. If this is your only one, itās hard to know whether youād have another one or to predict how this one will finally end.
One thing I can anticipate is that after the learnings in LwL, our LEs, respectively, would end differently than prior to LwL time. If I had ignorantly limerented from one to another before coming to LwL, now after my cptsd has got healed a lot, I would not fall in another LE for the same CAUSE and it would be one BY CHOICE, since I already know a lot about LE. I may have new Glimmers, like the one with Romeo back in Feb. but I really believe that I would not slip into another LE.
āI mean, I have seen people post that they woke up one say and it was just gone, somehow. I cant imagine that ever happening to me.ā
Everyone limerent, is different. There is no scientific formula on how each one could specifically get over their LE. Based on my bias, I simply do NOT believe or can be convinced that one could just wake up one morning and his/her LE is gone, unless s/he is a robot with an actual button to push/click.
āAre you guys still in thrall to any of your LOs, even a little bit, for example do you think you could fall again if exposed to them?ā
When I got over with my previous LOs, even good ones, thatās like the bones (of LE) were even dissolved under soil; but good memories still there without causing any sensations; they became facts. Although my xLO still appears in my dreams, I donāt feel/think Iām in āthrallā to him. I dream about ghosts here, you canāt say Iām in āthrallā to faceless ghosts or their words.
Thinking about what one would feel can be vastly different from actually feeling when encountering LO (again). At least, that was how it happened to me: I thought I would feel this or that way when I bump into LO or sit down with him for tea/talk; but, my actual feelings were so disappointingly different each time from what I had anticipatedā¦. LE baseless āimaginationā is better to stay forever inside limerentsā knucklehead; trying to actualize them would be a disaster, Iām convinced.
āAnd if so, why / what was it about them do you think that caused this to be the case?ā
Hmmmā¦ LO focused question again. I donāt think itās about them, itās about in what mental/emotional states we would be when we meet them again. If we are mentally sounding, we could be very affectionate and loving without LE tendency. If our life happens to be in some challenging situations or we are dealing with some psychological issues, such as boredom, low-grade depression, or fear for aging/death, or a vague polygamous taste for a LO besides SO, etc, etcā¦. then we may fall back with an old LO again.
Iām in much more relaxed and pleasant mood nowadays ā nothing to expect or anticipate or anxious about, thus able to create a bit when an occasion calls.
Bewitched,
I want to add something to my previous answer that I think might be more helpful to you.
The ex LEs/LOs I described sit pleasantly in the back of my mind. I mentioned the frustration of unexplored terrains, but this only is a light occasional frustration with time and distance. Other than that, I can draw
upon the experiences for pleasant reverie if I choose, but I don’t feel negativity about either the experiences or the XLOs.
If you can complete the transition out of your LE, you too could feel this way. Just nice memories of a nice person in your past.
@Snow,
It sounds from various bits you have posted like you know very instantly if you could get attracted to a guy or not, and that also (lately and longer term) you have had quite a lot of unwanted attention from men who don’t fall in that group! (Ruling out many platonic friendships)
If you thought of all the good qualities of your XLOs and then the worse qualities you’d want to avoid, what would you come up with? It is a rhetorical question – not trying to ask you to answer it here if you don’t want. I daresay you have done this exercise before. I think it can help you spot good opportunities quicker and close bad ones down quicker. There are good men (or a good man) waiting out there for you somewhere, it is just about being able to find them more efficiently!
Tongue in cheek but a male friend used to joke about this issue and say “There is one person for all of us the world. But she probably lives in Tahiti” (clarification – this joke was not against people from Tahiti. It was because Tahiti was about the furthest and most remote point in the world from where we lived)
It is great to hear you are going through an LO free phase and seem to be in a good place in yourself though. Keep the various bits of inspiration coming!
LaR, I know that was just a joke, but oh wow, there are probably thousands of good matches out there for me. And yet I might decide that in the end I would prefer to not be so tightly coupled (living together for example) with anyone.
It’s a cliche but it’s true – it’s about choosing the particular person day after day (and then one day not anymore, as it happens with me). Even the “perfect” choices wind up showing sides of themselves or evolving, as we do, into something we have to wrestle with ourselves to put up with. (Or we ourselves evolve or just annoy the hell out of them.)
@Trifles
āItās a cliche but itās true ā itās about choosing the particular person day after day (and then one day not anymore, as it happens with me). ā
Maybe this is my ESL thingy, each time I hear the word āchooseā for a potential mate, I could not help think of a product/object, which is what we go shopping for. I went through two small wedding ceremonies (one for registration and one for family and friends) and marriage vows. Nowadays I donāt believe scared, chosen vows could necessarily make relationship grow and last, like those purchased, finished products/objects, unless they are plants and pets which I love.
āEven the āperfectā choices wind up showing sides of themselves or evolving, as we do, into something we have to wrestle with ourselves to put up with. (Or we ourselves evolve or just annoy the hell out of them.)ā
Exactly! No one was, is or will be perfect, and all qualities are relative depending on speculating eyes, as for a pink elephant. They and we all HELPLESSLY evolve and can possibly grow into someone, for better or worse, who we could have never previously imagined. If we cannot keep up/sync with our potential partnerās growth, we would ājust annoy the hell out of them, and vice verse. Then a āperfectā match/union, aloof or vowed, would naturally break.
I was annoyed deeply when being ātreatedā as a potential āobjectā (by myself as well) so I have stopped āchoosingā ā off dating apps for more than a decade ā āsellingā myself with limited words and ābuyingā potential dates based on their verbal self-promotion š„ø. I tried and learned hard ways that I absolutely cannot āFALLā in a desirable crush if I know a manās face before meeting him. As I told LaR, all potential LOs come from strangers in unexpected situations/settings, totally out of my choiceā¦ I admit I love/d this adventurous nature of our ever unpredictable human life.
I was/am never FOMOā¦ We Easterners in general believe in fate in the domain of romantic partnership; and Iām even more of an odd š± even in COO.
@LaR,
āIt sounds from various bits you have posted like you know very instantly if you could get attracted to a guy or notā
Yes, itās a āblack-or-whiteā moment for 5 seconds, no grayish color in between; no flipping side later. There was a literal āclickā inside my head, as if a tiny particle just zoomed through inside, or perhaps, an extra beat or a missing beat in heart? I never quite understand why I was this way; how on earth my DNA drive or the Unconscious had its own šļø āļø Now, after learning about LE, I wonder what would happen in the future when I randomly glance at some guysā eyesā¦.
āalso (lately and longer term) you have had quite a lot of unwanted attention from men who donāt fall in that group! (Ruling out many platonic friendships)ā
I might sound arrogant and impertinent again: the majority of my life was trying to run/stay away from unwanted attention, which even forced me to change from an extrovert to an introvert during my teen years. I could well qualify as a āSensorā in terms of my sensing ability, but I rarely cared for (scared of) boys/menās attention, unless my glimmer already āpickedā them up first.
Most of the time, my best friend was literature/poetry. Something on me (not sure exactly what) had made most boys/men I encountered sadly unable to keep a platonic friendship with me, except some rare creative type (perhaps 1 out of 100ā) ā their creativity is more important to them than anything/anyone else. I felt very comfortable with them.
āIf you thought of all the good qualities of your XLOs and then the worse qualities youād want to avoid, what would you come up with?ā
Without that Glimmer, they could be a walking god but would have absolutely NO effect on me! In that first sight I seemed to have irrationally sensed whether he is ā
Cultured/uncouth, feminine/masculine, subtle/direct, gentle/rough, sentimental/rational, vulnerable/stoic, insecure/confident, (im)possible to tear, curious/stuck up, knowledgeable/ignorant, altruistic/selfish, modest/showy, energetic/sluggish, sincere/cynical, upbeat/laidback, humorous/seriousā¦
Appearance, hotness/sexiness had limited effect to my Glimmer, as long as mustache š„ø is absent. A lot of āsexinessā in mainstream seems to be too wild/uncouth for my šļø ; many could not carry conversations intelligently or culturally, let alone artistically create.
āI daresay you have done this exercise before. I think it can help you spot good opportunities quicker and close bad ones down quicker.ā
Not really; the vague list helps little in telling who would be glimmering in my odd eyes. Once it took place, I also could quickly detect something missing; one or two casual sentences could reveal something about one, eg. āI like American movies, because Iām an American.ā What does that say to you?
āThere are good men (or a good man) waiting out there for you somewhere, it is just about being able to find them more efficiently!ā
Youāre very optimistic! As a 50% Stoic, I see it as a fact: there is NO one out there waiting me, why should they even wait for anyone? Are they (we) finished āproductsā? Isnāt it best just naturally live/grow oneās life according to oneās nature and cultivated tastes?
āThere is one person for all of us the world. But she probably lives in Tahitiā
Itās Stoic to look at a default of the reality here ā he may live in Tahiti or under my nose, no one knows. Fate has her own whims. The challenge is to make oneās own life maximumly fulfilling even if s/he does not exist or never comes across oneās path.
āIt is great to hear you are going through an LO free phase and seem to be in a good place in yourself though. ā
LO was taken away by Fate, nothing I could do about it despite of the mental resistance to let go this dramatic/traumatic chapter of my life. Time and distance always work their own wonders! As I repeated before, oneās Unconscious always goes against oneās wills/wishes; the more I want to hold onto something, the more/sooner it slips away through my fingersā¦. Itās indeed a sad nature.
From a Buddhistic perspective, if one just patiently watches and stares at oneās pain, whatever kind it is, it will go away. You see what has happened to Bewitchedās LO/LE.
Hope you enjoy a fulfilling weekend with your SO!
@Snow,
Hope you had a nice weekend. Have just had a few days of leave, done some fun stuff with SO and our friends and charged my batteries up a bit!
ā”… how on earth my DNA drive or the Unconscious had its own š Now, after learning about LE, I wonder what would happen in the future when I randomly glance at some guysā eyesā¦.”
Your list of what you can learn about a man from the eye contact in those first few seconds of meeting him is pretty incredible š§. It doesn’t sound like the weirdest thing I’ve ever heard, as eyes can really ‘talk’ such a lot. Do those initial sensings nearly always prove to be right? I’d love to know (in the obvious scenario in my life) about whether what I think I can read in the eyes is accurate. But it is most likely more fun and safer to just try and interpret it myself and not know š.
“Something on me (not sure exactly what) had made most boys/men I encountered sadly unable to keep a platonic friendship with me, except some rare creative type (perhaps 1 out of 100ā) ā their creativity is more important to them than anything/anyone else. I felt very comfortable with them.”
I would have guessed it would be the creative, sensitive, cultured types that you’d be most comfortable with – the love of poetry, music etc is a big ‘tell’.
“one or two casual sentences could reveal something about one, eg. āI like American movies, because Iām an American.ā What does that say to you?”
I don’t know if I’ve got your point but it hints to me that you’d feel the person follows the herd, and that its effect on you would be: šāāļøšāāļø
“Youāre very optimistic! As a 50% Stoic, I see it as a fact: there is NO one out there waiting me, why should they even wait for anyone? Are they (we) finished āproductsā? Isnāt it best just naturally live/grow oneās life according to oneās nature and cultivated tastes?”
Ok, I could have avoided that if I had thought more carefully about my wording. I don’t really mean ‘WAITING out there for you’, just ‘out there for you’. Agreed that we’re never finished products but fluid and ever-changing. And as we change, so our (collective) SOs might change with us, or not, and both outcomes are OK. And yes, it is indeed best to live life for ourselves first. The irony is that potential SOs are more likely to cross our path when we are living authentically for ourselves and when we aren’t looking too hard.
I’m 100% not saying find anybody for the sake of it, or compromise. I’m just saying don’t rule out pleasant surprises, if or when you feel open to them in future. I can see how experiences of limerence (unrequited or unsaid ones) could be enough to put people off the dating game forever. But I can also see how limerence teaches us valuable lessons about who we are, what we want and how to get it (with or without the involvement of another person in that).
“From a Buddhistic perspective, if one just patiently watches and stares at oneās pain, whatever kind it is, it will go away. You see what has happened to Bewitchedās LO/LE”
Yes, I am working on a similar approach, as you’ve observed. Hopefully there comes a time for all of us here where the pain is gone (without us trying to force it out as that would be counterproductive) and we don’t have to anticipate other pain to replace it. It seems you’ve come a long way on that journey since arriving at LwL and I really hope that continues š
@Lim-a-rant.
I’ll give you my thoughts, so you can have one more perspective to add to your collection.
Initially, my attraction to LO wasn’t about looks at all. I think he glimmered for me because he seemed to embody my LO archetype to perfection. It seems my LO archetype is male ESTP. I call this archetype “the Class Clown”. But the more adult names are “the Doer” and “the Entrepeneur”.
This archetype is charismatic, funny, smart, blunt, achievement-oriented, natural athletes, good coordination. Not good at humanities. Not good with abstract thought. May or may not have a secret sensitive side. š
I think ESTPs tend to be “magnetic” regardless of looks. (Madonna and Angelina Jolie are two female ESTPs). This magnetism is probably what people think of when they say somebody is “hot”. My LO was also good-looking in addition to being magnetic. In grade nine, a group of classmates were poring over photos from music camp, and they came across images of my LO and thought my LO would be “gorgeous but only if he were a girl”. (A backhanded compliment, if ever I’ve heard one!) š¤£
I think my attraction to LO built slowly over time. But he was the one who initially breeched my boundaries. When we were playing water polo in eighth grade, he told me to throw the ball to him so he could score. I’m not an athlete. I’m not a good swimmer. And I can’t throw for peanuts. But I closed my eyes, flung the ball in his general direction, and hoped for the best. Like a merman on anabolic steroids, he rose up out of the water and caught the ball. I can’t remember whether he scored a goal or not, but I remember feeling very happy that I had managed to do something that apparently pleased him. I think he said something to me like “Good job!”
The worst part of the story – I wasn’t even on his team! (Whoops!) š
Another time, in Art class, we were all sitting quietly, drawing pictures. And my LO got up out of his chair, bounded over to my table like an overexcited puppy, and made a big show of looking at what I was drawing. He liked what I was drawing. (A native frog, freehand). I think I was very touched that such an attractive, confident boy would waste time acknowledging my existence.
I used to watch my LO during our shared Physical Education class because he had such incredible natural athleticism, and I was entranced by the way he moved. I think he was one of only two boys in my class who could successfully execute a backflip. He was everything I wasn’t, sports-wise.
I didn’t really think he was stunning until Senior, when we were both 16. However, I think by that stage my brain was clouded with so much dopamine that had he looked like Miss Piggy herself I still would have fancied him. Yeah, rationality had gone out the window by that point. But in reality he was packing on muscle. As far as my little brain was concerned, he just kept better and better-looking. He really could do no wrong in my eyes. š
My favourite memory of him is probably when I caught sight of him at the school formal for the first time. I looked at him and said in a small voice that he looked nice and he gazed back at me and said I looked nice too. I think he meant it. I think we were genuine friends (as least as far as he was concerned) and I ruined it all (from my perspective) by becoming lovesick over him. He couldn’t give me the one thing I wanted: reciprocation. š
Sammy,
You’re INTJ, right? Or INFJ? How do you think you’d go with an ENTP (or ENFP)? I have read they are a good fit. Just wondered what you think the effect would have been if you swapped out your LO’s sensing for intuition.
I struggle with the MBTI categorisations. I can be an F or P depending what I feel like that day. I want to answer every question with “it depends”! I know people who test as a strong Intuitive but show all the hallmarks of a Sensor. This all can get confusing!
@Lim-a-rant.
I’m an INFJ, although for a long time I thought I was an INTJ.
ESTPs aren’t a good match for me because the result is, well … pure addiction. Even when I was in grade three, there was this little boy in my class who was the class clown, and I just liked him right off the bat. It was his energy, his bravado, his fearlessness, etc, etc. He used to answer back the teacher and the teacher still liked him! š
I don’t know about ENTPs. My father is ISTP. So my LO was just my father – if my father happened to be an extrovert! My father is hilarious if you can get him to open up. But it’s almost impossible to get him to open up. ESTPs will be funny without prompting. They’re just natural flirts. The problem is they flirt with … everyone. š
ENFJs get on my nerves. (Mum is an ENFJ). I find it hard to be around personality types who want to divulge all their emotions constantly, but whose eyes glaze over in response to the teeniest injection of logic. It’s hard to talk to people who don’t enjoy thinking and who only wish to emote. If you look closely, Mum and Dad were one of those love matches based on the law of “opposites attract”. They had crazy chemistry in the early days of their romance, but as husband and wife proved 100% incompatible. š¤
There was a girl at high school who acted limerent around me.
(Because she mistakenly believed I was into her when I wasn’t – there was some miscommunication there from my POV). She was an ENFP/J. There was a real spark. But it only lasted for … 29 seconds.
It’s like once we got to know each other, I realised I didn’t like her. Her personality wasn’t at all intriguing to me. I didn’t want to get to know her better. She was very friendly, but she didn’t really come across as authentic. I also sensed that she didn’t really like me as a person. She was “in love with love”. For all she cared, I could have been a cardboard cutout of a man. She treated me like a NPC (non-player character) in her life while wanting to date me. It never occurred to her that I was a human being with my own feelings. š
I don’t like other INFJs because INFJs are people who “know too much for their own good” i.e. they’re too intuitive and I don’t like people who have the ability to read my mind while I’m busy reading theirs. I like to be the only person in the room with psychic powers, thank you very much. (I have an INFJ older sister. Our conversations are awkward, to say the least. We sit there in silence, avoiding eye contact, knowing what the other is thinking without being told). š
I guess I’m drawn to ESTPs because ESTPs all seem to have a personality of their own that they haven’t borrowed from someone else. They’re different enough to be interesting. They’re similar enough to feel like kindred spirits. They’re fun. They’re charming. One doesn’t have to worry about hurting their feelings, because they’re fairly thick-skinned compared to most other personality types. I’m attracted to their authenticity, their strong sense of self.
On ‘Suspended Authority’, it was weird in my LE. I had a set of long-established, well maintained boundaries to keep my relationship with LO ‘safe’. Almost overnight the primitive ‘chimp’ bit of my brain (Id?) started beating my executive to the decisions and a lot of these boundaries just crumbled – all apart from not crossing physical boundaries or very deep emotional ones (my executive still won on those). I am talking about boundaries collapsing to seeking LO, spending time, deepening the connection.
The addiction model for limerence is discussed a lot here, and I’d liken it to that. Anyone who smokes does so knowing full well it won’t do their lungs any good. By the time they consciously think about that, they might have smoked the full pack. By the time my executive reflected on decisions, the chimp had already made them.
It took about five months to get a semblance of control back and bring the executive back into decisions, and more like double that to get it to a level I was remotely happy with – where I could establish what and how to put back in place boundaries-wise. I am still not fully there – my executive makes some decisions, my chimp still at other times overrides it.
I’d be interested if any of the rest of you know what those ‘repair’ time periods were for you, if you experienced similar – and how long it took to get completely back to pre-LE equilibrium.
LaR,
Our LEs differ dramatically but as the good Doctor defines Suspended Authority, “When in the presence of a limerent object, some internal force seems to be able to sedate the executive brain.”
Perhaps this does not apply to my instance. My ability to speak directly to LO would not work. It was as if my brain would not correlate a sentence or phrase to send to my mouth, to actually speak it. I could not talk to her without feeling as if I would stutter my words. Or just overall believing that the moment to speak was not right. Rehearsing the moment didnāt help either. Any words ever said to her were few and far between and only when I wasn’t expecting to see her. I know I was like a Deer in headlights..
Then the one time she saw me confidently approaching to actually try and have a conversation with her, she did an about-face and turned right around and walked away from me. She knew I was going to say something to her. I knew I was going to say something to her, but she wasn’t going to hear any of it.
I feel like it being 2 years later now, my confidence has improved. Definitely not feeling as insane-crazy over her as I once did. If I were to see her again, I feel like I would be able to try and make small talk. Guess it would all depend on her reaction upon seeing me. Which could probably go either way.
Overall, I had her rejection the whole time, without a word ever being spoken, but a limerent mind never wants to believe it.
MJ,
I know our LE’s are a million miles apart, but I do really relate to experiences of being left so tongue-tied by a woman I like that I can’t get my words out at all. What you say about how you are or were with your LO doesn’t sound crazy at all. I have been known to ‘fluster’ around LO, and can be caught off guard with it when I think I won’t. It isn’t commented on and it passes – but like you say it is a very different background and situation. What they have in common is that there is a right old flood of the brain chemicals in these situations that has us acting almost outside of ourselves.
@Lim-a-rant.
“…acting almost outside of ourselves.”
Well put! Like many people here, you have a flair for language. I think your phrase may have been the one the good doctor was reaching for when he wrote: “It did feel as though I was a different person, running on different emotions, despite retaining my core identity.”
Oh, what I mean is that I’m INFJ-A, but I don’t think any studies go deep enough to distinguish us from INFJ-T’s, in terms of limerence susceptibility.
INFJ’s are more prone to limerence, or at least, to filling out forms about it:
https://neurosparkle.com/infatuation-mbti/
(also I think there is another survey here on LWL with similar results)
Yes, that’s right, some physical attraction has to be there, or no glimmer will happen.
I distinctly recall the glimmer with my LO, it’s burned into my mind.
We were across a crowded room, too far away to really make eye contact, though I swear her glance settled on me longer than is customary for strangers.
The first thing that caught my attention was her body language, an open legged sitting pose that was at once casually insouciant and sexually aggressive.
(Later, I discovered that she has a background in performing arts, so her ability to command attention in a crowd is something honed over years, and not necessarily directed at me.)
The ‘click’ happened a couple weeks later, when I’d forgotten she existed.
She called to me from a distance, addressing me by name, as if we were old friends.
(she was a trainee in the same department but our roles didn’t intersect, so there was no need to interact)
It was more the energy and intonation in her voice, than anything we said.
This was before I knew anything about limerence.
But I did have past experience with BPD, so I grey-rocked her for the duration of her stay (LO ticks every box for HPD.. and also every box for what I find desirable in a woman..)
(replying to Liam-a-rant
https://livingwithlimerence.com/coffeehouse-open-thread/#comment-62908
Still getting used to the format here)
I had most bizarre dream last night/this morning ā
Many posters here, a few of my childhood friends (cf) and college classmates (cc), were woking in a small, 3-floor, beige-colored, clay building, located in a small, nameless town in Britain (first) and then at some point it switched to my childhood residential compound in COO. It was a lab or medical clinic of some kind. Either DrL owned it or was the leader of the whole firm.
An incident happened: there were some ad images posted, like ones in DrLās blog articles; but on a second or third click on an ad image, one of posterās realistic picture would be revealed underneath, without telling who it was. Very soon all postersā ID pictures could be clicked open through all ad images. So we had to guess, based on talks we hear on LwL, who was who and what job s/he was doing in the building or elsewhere outside the firm.
There was a big stir in the building, most employees in a white nurse uniform were eagerly guessing. I wondered who would recognize my picture (there were other posters from the East, not just me), DrL in the white uniform (in his realistic face) walked from room to room casually, grinning a bit, seemingly unaware what had happened.
A couple of regular posters were upset, either unwilling to come in to work or complained, since their identity ware revealed now. But they had little choice besides coming into the lab, doing tests or interacting with other LwL co-workersā¦ there were loud guessing, gossiping, laughingā¦ some bits of details Iām not telling now after I was recognized by some ā¦ Then a bit more confusing details in somewhat serious chats with the said cf and cc about this HUGE incident, standing outside of my childhood residential compoundā¦ a very busy dream indeed!
Waking up, I could not help š and wonderā¦. š«£
Assume the Role of Cassandra, Wearing a Mask, Speaking into the Camera
Carolina Ebeid
No, nothing, no thing, no whereā
the o of no blinks open
I think that you think that I think
too much about grief
Itās not only mineāweāre in the same current
You wonāt hear it blazing always in the unprocessed
wind under the voice recording
I wear my nerve halo, a handful of seeds, a breakdown
in the blood-brain barrier
Itās come to this: the interstate with star-shaped
plants and mile markers that multiply oneās belonging
Can you hear the low pulse tree-growth consuming the fence?
Books are states of consciousness, a recordā
What wonāt finally kill you, you eat its tongue
Holy Iāll make the alphabet for interrupters, malcontents
Holy is the person who digs the person out the rubble into the grave
About you: weather will taste metallic in the overnight
visuals, something lightdark, slick-liver-wet
Put a whisper into a jar, a war
trots out of your chiaroscuro head
******
Silent words and haloed laughters
loudly speak and echo in serial muddled images
charioting glimpses of the Unconscious
out of a misty and chiaroscuro head
āļø š¦āš„
To the Moon [fragment]
Percy Bysshe Shelley
1792 ā1822
Art thou pale for weariness
Of climbing Heaven, and gazing on the earth,
Wandering companionless
Among the stars that have a different birth,–
And ever changing, like a joyless eye
That finds no object worth its constancy?
*****
Today is the Moon Festival in COOā¦ the equivalent Thanksgivingā¦.
Under the Harvest Moon
Carl Sandburg
1878 ā1967
Under the harvest moon,
When the soft silver
Drips shimmering
Over the garden nights,
Death, the gray mocker,
Comes and whispers to you
As a beautiful friend
Who remembers.
Under the summer roses
When the flagrant crimson
Lurks in the dusk
Of the wild red leaves,
Love, with little hands,
Comes and touches you
With a thousand memories,
And asks you
Beautiful, unanswerable questions.
They Lived Enamoured of the Lovely Moon
Trumbull Stickney
1874 ā1904
They lived enamoured of the lovely moon,
The dawn and twilight on their gentle lake.
Then Passion marvellously born did shake
Their breast and drave them into the mid-noon.
Their lives did shrink to one desire, and soon
They rose fire-eyed to follow in the wake
Of one eternal thought,āwhen sudden brake
Their hearts. They died, in miserable swoon.
Of all their agony not a sound was heard.
The glory of the Earth is more than they.
She asks her lovely image of the day:
A flower grows, a million boughs are green,
And over moving ocean-waves the bird
Chases his shadow and is no more seen.
Songs (III)
E. E. Cummings
1894 ā1962
Always before your voice my soul
half-beautiful and wholly droll
is as some smooth and awkward foal,
whereof young moons begin
the newness of his skin,
so of my stupid sincere youth
the exquisite failure uncouth
discovers a trembling and smooth
Unstrength, against the strong
silences of your song;
or as a single lamb whose sheen
of full unsheared fleece is mean
beside its lovelier friends, between
your thoughts more white than wool
My thought is sorrowful:
but my heart smote in trembling thirds
of anguish quivers to your words,
As to a flight of thirty birds
shakes with a thickening fright
the sudden fooled light.
it is the autumn of a year:
When through the thin air stooped with fear,
across the harvest whitely peer
empty of surprise
death’s faultless eyes
(whose hand my folded soul shall know
while on faint hills do frailly go
The peaceful terrors of the snow,
and before your dead face
which sleeps,a dream shall pass)
and these my days their sounds and flowers
Fall in a pride of petaled hours,
like flowers at the feet of mowers
whose bodies strong with love
through meadows hugely move.
yet what am i that such and such
mysteries very simply touch
me, whose heart-wholeness overmuch
Expects of your hair pale,
a terror musical?
while in an earthless hour my fond
soul seriously yearns beyond
this fern of sunset frond on frond
opening in a rare
Slowness of gloried air…
The flute of morning stilled in noonā
noon the implacable bassoonā
now Twilight seeks the thrill of moon,
washed with a wild and thin
despair of violin
āsome bits of details Iām not telling now after I was recognized by some ā¦ ā
Well, under the high tide of the Harvest Moon, Iām just telling a bit of more here ā
A poster/ghost here was a mail person delivering mails to the DrLās ālabā company. There was a sandy hill (with a few scattered, skinny shrubs) with a sandy path right outside the low beige clay building; nothing else was on the left side of the building. It seemed the company was located at the edge of a small town/village.
A poster, the mail-ghost in the dream, in black silk from head to toe, paused alone on the long, winding, sandy path with a mail-bike; the mail-ghost did not want to encounter some face-revealed ghostsā¦. I chitchatted with another face-revealed ghost inside the building, āIām not going to eat anyone upā¦ā. I was about stepping out to coax the mail-ghost to continue the duty ā delivering the companyās daily mailsā¦
Then I woke upā¦. š
Stigmas on the body of air
Ekaterina Derysheva
translated from the Russian by Ryan Hardy, Asher Maria, and Kevin M. F. Platt
stigmas on the body of air
the wind finds its voices
after retouching the speaker
look at them moving
in the twilight of indifference
**********
Rabbit Lady on the Moon
Rabbit Lady on the Moon
Finds her hundreds of illuminating hues
After tossing the dreamer
Look at them winding, echoing
In the silver chamber of laughter
āļø š¦āš„
23:55pm, 9/17/24
Rabbit Lady on the Moon
Rabbit Lady on the Moon
Finds her illuminating hues
After tossing the dreamer
Look at them winding, echoing
In the silver chamber of laughter
āļø š¦āš„
23:59pm, 9/17/24
Seems to be a telling dream againā¦. I seem unable to pass one night without a āfeatured shortā with colorful detailsā¦
Father and I were taking an aimless walk (almost never done in reality) and rested on a large cross section of a big street. A good looking, bare-chest, messy-hair young man was shouting something in the middle of the street with a dozen people half circled him watching. Father and I sat down a bench and half-heartedly listenedā¦. I dozed off.
Waking up in the late afternoon, I was shocked: there were over hundreds of people in about 10 layers on steps (like in a stadium) around Father and me, listening to the young manās continuous preaching now about protecting children and their welfareā¦. He wanted all of us to do something to achieve this goal.
Then the crowd began to leave . Father and I again took leisure strolls under a heavily dark-green tree-shaded sidewalk, along with the scattered audience. We were both in a very relaxed and pleasant mood, chitchatting random stuff (canāt remember a thing). There were some old, short European styled buildings and a green-roofed church along the way.
Then somehow, Father and me arrived at my old work in front of a 19th century stone building āsittingā on top of the two tall, half-domed/arched gates (with the external stairways leading to another section of the campus). Right on the stair-steps, the xLO was standing dashingly under an early morning sunlight.
Father and I paused a few steps aways the stair-steps. Then Father smiled and looked very calm, without saying a word, he vanished in the cloudless sky and fresh air, as if he had just completed his escorting task and departed without any sentiments. I did not feel sad, anxious, or any sense of being abandoned while still standing alone.
I walked up to xLO and naturally greeted him. āDid you see I was chatting with my father on my left side?ā He charmingly smiled without saying anything. I didnāt feel embarrassed but continued, āI know itās odd to tell others I was walking and chatting so naturally with a dead person, but Father was really there with me.ā I knew I could never convince xLO that Dad and I just had a great outing and watched a children-farewell promotion with hundreds of other people in the street.
xLO told me that he wanted to move his furniture out of the office and bring them to his new job location. Without me responding anything, his SO and the younger daughter suddenly appeared from nowhere, both gleeful. They were planning how to load the furniture to a small truck. I felt very uncomfortable and unfitting standing there in the middle of the familyās affair.
Knowing that Iād lost Father recently and might be āout of sortsā sometimes, xLOās SO was polite, briefly and somewhat indifferently greeted me (I never met her in reality), then kept moving around, loudly talking about her ideas of how to load stuff. The teenage daughter giggly joined the discussion while moving up and own the steps. Later, I saw (or envisioned) a big piece of long sofa on an old rundown pickup standing on a red-brick pavement.
I silently watched and felt very invisible. By then it was a late morning, the SO was sitting down on the other side of the steps beginning to eat a box of American pancakesā¦
I felt so awkward that I just wanted to vanish from the site, like Fatherā¦ Bingo! ā I woke up, thanks to Athenaāļø
*****
The Gong
Beatrice Ravenel
Love hums in your veins with the deep and heartening sound
Of a temple gongā
The gong of Dai Nippon
That fused into perfect, fastidious harmony
When a girl had flung into the quag of its white-hot metal
Her rhythm of passionate life.
In the dead hours of the day
When men doubt themselves,
When the acrid sunlight appraises them and finds them without due significance,
You touch for your reassurance
The gong!
And its soft-toned thunder, musical, purple, true as earthās centerā
Dignity, power, convictionā
Imposes its harmony:
One may believe in oneself without insulting intelligence,
Life may be full of distinction, or ordered beautyāand magicā
And you are the master!
The rhythm of blood and spirit run true.
When has she failed you?
When withheld immolation
In the fiery quicksand?
āDignity, power, conviction ā
Imposes its harmony:
One may believe in oneself without insulting intelligence,
Life may be full of distinction, or ordered beautyāand magicāā
Each Self is the potential master!
I fell and knocked my AC ligament out of place yesterday. Momma dragged me to the ER with me kicking and screaming. Its poking out my right shoulder. I gotta see an orohpodeic doctor tomorrow to find out bad it is. It hurts like hell. But Momma has been taking care of me as much as I protest. I dont like being a burden. Im in a sling and a sash and i dont like it. Momma damn near had to feed me last night when we got home from the ER at like 1am.
That’s terrible Friend. I’m sorry.
Wishing you a speedy recovery. Hope you don’t have to miss too much work.
It’s ok to let someone look after you when injured, Adam.
I doubt very much your wife sees you as a burden.
Heck, even Superman needed some tending every once in a while.
Prayers for a speedy recovery!
I just had to ask my wife to shower me, wash my hair and shave me. Itās embarrassing. I love her that she did it. I hate that I had to ask her to do it.
Wow Adam, I hope that itās not too bad and you get better soon! All my good wishes also for Momma.
ā But Momma has been taking care of me as much as I protest.ā
I understand very much that you donāt want to be a burden to her, but as a mother I have to tell you that itās much easier for her if you donāt protest against necessary help and measuresššš»!
That aside, I wish you both that you will recover quickly and without any complications!
Ah, that sucks, Adam š
Hopefully the damage is not as bad as it feels.
You’ll probably get a physio referral and recovery plan.
That which does not kill us.. Will almost kill us!
Dear Adam,
I really hope that when you go to see your doctor today that your poor shoulder is not so badly damaged – although it sounds terrible from what you described. When the body lets us down it might be a chance to appreciate our nearest and dearest by letting somebody else be your “white knight” for a while. I always appreciate my SO when I am sick or sore because he loves to help. It sounds like Momma is another person like that – she’s great in a crisis.
You have been having a tough run of things, both limerent and not-limerent in the past few weeks, god bless, and I hope it turns out to be less bad than it sounds.
Bx
Thank you all for your comments. I try not to be a terrible patient. I like to make jokes to ease my tension. When Momma tightens up my sling and sash ā¦ āwell Momma now that you got me all tied up you can do whatever you want to meā which probably be smother me in my sleep lol. I liked to joke with nurses at the ER the other night too.
Whats most annoying is my right arm is my primary one and the brain still instinctually tells me to use it. So I gotta think before I do anything.
I should be able to call the docās office in a couple hours to see if I can get an appointment soon. As the ligament popping in and out of place is causing extensive bruising on my shoulder. And me Iām like 10 year old ā¦ cool theres a muscle sticking out of my shoulder! š Do we men ever truly grow up?
@Adam,
š
Thanks for joking with the nurses; we love fun patients! Hope you feel better really soon.
Adam,
I hope it turns out to be nothing too serious. Doing things with your off arm can be a challenge. Brushing your teeth, for example.
I have to ask. Had you been drinking before you fell?
PS: Did they give you anything for the pain? If they did, be very careful. Drugs and alcohol don’t mix. My mother died of an accidental overdose.
PPS: If they did and you talk in your sleep now, drugs can make that worse.
Maybe God’s trying to tell you something.
LN
Yaāll lots of times have a thankless job. I asked the doc how they my oxygen level from that thing they tape to my finger. She said its magic. And I said āwell all women can do magicā as reference to America song. I asked a nurse later and she actually explained it to me. And I said āso the doc was right it is magicā to which she got a good laugh.
LE
I intentionally downplayed my pain level so they would not prescribe me anything. Ive been taking ibuprofen for pain. When I had my appendix taken out many years back I was taking my pain pills long after the pain was gone. Never again.
Yea alcohol was part of the equation. If God is trying to tell me something he’s doing it well through my wife. As sheās half terribly concerned about me and half pissed off. I donāt think I need to try for a strike three. No more drunk meandering.
Adam,
I remember twice in my life where God broke me down physically to the point where I was in a place to finally listen to Him.
Not pleasant, but effective.
@Adam,
You and your wife may already know this, but just in case you don’t, ibuprofen (NSAIDS) and chronic alcohol intake combined are both reeeaally bad on livers. I only say this to make sure things don’t get worse for you! I see it all the time — it can cause a lot of bleeding and damage. You may want to consider looking to other forms of pain relief that don’t affect the liver as much.
Wishing you both well!
He should have learned his lesson when he resisted going to ER until it was 4 days after his appendix ruptured and he had open appy. It went gangrene and I had to deal with his pen rose & JP drains ā¦. And yetā¦.. SMH!
LN, I am not formally medically trained, Iāve had too damn many family patients. Mom, dad, mom, Granma, Mom, micro-preemie, Mom, Granma, preemie, Mom, Adam.
And Ive had 8 surgeries myself including an ankle fusion ā of those 8, only 1 was laparoscopic.
I know about the NSAIDs. He has a Grade 4 (at the very least) AC joint separation. Good news is the Ortho was in London and Beijing as the US Olympic Wrestling Team Dr.
Dear Adam’sLoopyWife,
I knew that you were a great woman but did not realise that you were so funny š
A grade 4 AC joint separation sounds awful. I really wish you guys well.
Thank goodness Adam’s got you in his life.
All the very best,
Bxxxxx
Adam is lucky to have such an understanding & supportive SO in you!
I don’t dare mention my LE to anyone, not even my non politically correct friends, who would probably laugh that I’m just having a mid-life crisis.
I haven’t exactly concealed it either though, my reading spaces are littered with titles on limerence.
She can’t have failed to notice..
Best I can do is try to transfer my feelings to my own SO, if anything, I am endeavouring to live life more fully (but maybe I’ll pass drunken dancing. Don’t wanna wind up in ED like Adam..)
Ha, suspended authority is definitely something.
I think very rationally and take a long time to weigh decisions. So I do that and decide there is something I have to say no to for a host of excellent reasons. I go to my LO, she ask me about it, and I say yes.
It’s especially annoying that she doesn’t have to insist at all and no amount of convincing myself before seem to help.
Also, I’m weird with her, she’s weird with me,we’re atrocious at communication, but I’m not sure that’s the same concept or just crush related weirdness.
I went and read “Limerence for a coworker” for the first time just now. I wish I had seen this article (seen LWL!) in or before May of 2019, before I took that sledgehammer to that antimatter bomb that I am sure was even felt in a parallel universe. I was the caricature of monumentally epic stupidity.
A solution may be to go to work for an entirely different outfit, and then reach out and see what happens — can’t get fired from a job you don’t have!
@James A.
“I was the caricature of monumentally epic stupidity.”
Sounds like one heck of a good holiday read. Has bidding already commenced or may I put in a small offer for the exclusive worldwide publishing rights? š¤£
“A solution may be to go to work for an entirely different outfit, and then reach out and see what happens ā canāt get fired from a job you donāt have!”
I must have dyslexia. I read this as: “A solution may be to go to work IN an entirely different outfit, and then reach out and see what happens …”
Because we all know there’s no problem in life that can’t be solved with a … quick wardrobe change. š
Wishing you well, buddy. Sorry you’re struggling. š
Hey everyone. Thought this would be a good time to update on my situation. I was handling my LE quite well in the recent past – not out of the woods, but managing it better, I guess. Was beginning to be more balanced mentally. However, I recently had another life setback – not ready to share now, maybe sometime in the future. Post this setback, the feelings towards LO have suddenly intensified, which sort of makes sense. Just telling myself to not go “deep” this time, as I have not really gotten over the earlier LE episode with the same LO. I am trying to keep myself busy, and also hoping time will do its thing. Wish me luck!
Listen to some good music.
Thanks James, will go for this.
Hi ABCD,
sorry to hear that. Keep in mind that you did good work before and that itās not undone. I guess you will be able to bounce back faster and keep the curve flatter than last flare of LE. Youāve experienced it all before, so you know whatās going on, keep that in mind! Good luck!
Thanks Mila. Yes, you are right. This is all chartered territory, so hopefully, I can use this knowledge to keep things balanced, and in control.
How are you doing? Looks like you are coming out of your LE?
Hi ABCD,
Yes, I think Iām pretty much out of the woods. Iām still waiting until Iāll have visited him this weekend (stopping by on a work trip)before believing it myself. But I donāt feel limerent anymore. We still text but I toned it down in frequency and warmth (didnāt plan that, I would prefer warm but not very frequent contact), and itās ok for me. I feel neutral at the prospect of seeing him. I might have a setback but I already feel how the distance cures a lot, so Iāll get out of it quickly I guess, once the distance is established again.
I think the way he blocked deeper conversations of any kind and insisted on a very frequent but superficial contact hurt me but also showed me the way out of the mess.
I wish you good luck! Try to focus on other important things in your life, it would be a pity to miss them over this setback and futile limerence.
@ABCD,
It is much easier to get pulled (back) towards what comforts us (perhaps LO in your case from what you say) when faced with a stressful life situation. Something like that kick-started my LE and I leaned into it for a while. Consider whether the comfort is real or whether contact with LO gives only temporary comfort followed by stronger discomfort. Stay strong, keep busy like you say, and let it run its course, as it will.
Thanks Lim-a-rant, really appreciate your advice. The highs and lows were quite intense last time. And, as you say, no matter how bad things seem, they do improve with time, this is for sure.
Hey ABCD,
I have been there – this is like a tune (an earworm) that I know too well. Whatever vulnerability started limerence for you, nowadays the LO probably just represents a familiar mental pathway that takes you to a place of Comfort (as LaR says) or Distraction from the pain that has flared up in your life.
My main advice is to greatly reduce daydreaming about LO. Its super-comforting when your brain is worried and distressed about something else but risks slipping backwards into the quicksand. When your mind goes in the direction of LO thoughts and those familiar pathways, perhaps it might be helpful to remind yourself that ‘nothing has changed in this LE, I am just seeking it more’. The externalities of the LE situation are unchanged. Rather, it is just an expression of your internal turmoil, which has flared up because of the adverse personal circumstances. This is about you.
My Dad’s suicide worsened my LE. I hope that your circumstances are manageable and improve. If its any consolation, they almost always do improve, one way or another, even if it takes time.
Sending hugs
Bx
Thanks Bewitched. I am really sorry to hear about your father. I always wondered what caused my LE – loss in the family, mid life crisis, or maybe both of these.
My circumstances are manageable, I feel. It will take some time, but I am confident I can get out of it. I hope as I start feeling better, the LE situation would improve as well. Logically, this makes sense, right?
You are correct that one or the other, things do get better with time, hopefully with less time, if possible.
All the best to you.
I just reread your post and realized that I read it wrong. I thought you had a setback with LO, but it seems you had another incident that triggered the LE.
Thatās very understandable! Itās like me and sweets when I get stressed, itās a knee-jerk reaction. The others have advised on it already, so I just want to apologize that I didnāt read it carefully.
Hi Mila. No problem at all.
I am really glad that you feel much better in your LE. I was sure that the distance would help you out, as seeing LO frequently is a trigger.
Yes, I have got some pretty solid advice from LwL friends.
Will keep you all updated.
ABCD,
Sometimes progress is slow, but it is progress. Have had some ups and downs myself, but overall feeling better and not as bad as before.
Keep up the good work. Thanks for the update.
Thanks MJ. Yes, progress can be slow, and one needs to be tenacious. Thanks for the support, and glad to know that you are feeling better, keep going.
@MJ.
“Sometimes progress is slow, but it is progress. Have had some ups and downs myself, but overall feeling better and not as bad as before.”
Glad to hear you are feeling a little better. I think you have indeed made progress during your time here. Am proud of you. š
Thank you Sammy. Your support is always well appreciated.. š
Need help againā¦š My LO is moving far away and Iām feeling really depressed about it. I am very unlikely to ever see him again. We had a very nice conversation before he left (he has no idea, probably, how much I like him, and I was certainly never going to tell him. He is married with kids. It was always just a hopeless crush and fantasy on my part).
But I had been hoping to be friends with him, it seemed like we were moving towards that. But now heās moving to the other side of the country, my hopes for even a friendship are crushed, I miss him constantly and have a hard time not thinking about him.
Hang in there, Kelly. The thought of LO moving away may be painful and first, but, over a period of time, the distance will reduce the intensity of your feelings towards LO. Wish you all the best.
Thank you. I know it will help in the long run. I just really miss him. I donāt have very many friends here, and he is the nicest person I have met. I think he enjoyed talking to me. He had no idea (hopefully not!) that I had a huge crush on him.
Hello Kelly. Yes, whether to confide in LO or not has been debated a lot in the past on this forum, and opinions were divided. In my case, both LO and I have SOs, so I decided against disclosure, both to LO and SO. having said that, I am sure both of us leaked our emotions to other people.
I am sorry to hear that you are feeling depressed. I have been there, still am, to a lower extent hopefully. What helped me was being physically active, and leaning on to family and friends. There were/are some bad days, but I just tried/try to ride them out.
Your situation is tricky, as your LO has an SO. This makes disclosure very complicated. It is good that you wish your LO happiness. When I have done the same thing, it has had a soothing effect on my mind.
What have you thought about future contact with LO? Are you gonna be in touch on social media? This has been a difficult question for me, as it may not be possible to go full NC.
All the best!
@Kelly,
Friends are nice but having a hopeless crush on someone where you know there will never be actual reciprocation is very hard too. At least for me it is.
Wishing you better days, free from the sadness..
@Kelly,
This is a very familiar feeling to me. I know the heartache of the downward part of limerence so well. Even when I knew about limerence, I still had to wait out those feelings and emotions until they just ran their cycle out. I am sorry you are going through this. I do hope that you know you are not alone in your struggle, and I encourage you that you should feel better months from now once the cycle ends. We are here for you š
Thank you! You are very kind & supportive! I know that what I probably need is some therapy for depression. When I am depressed, even small things tend to make me feel more intensely depressed. Unfortunately, I canāt afford therapy yet, so I have to just deal with it for now.
@Kelly,
I struggle with depression too (unrelated to limerence; it’s a low-grade chronic type.) I found that medication really helped me. I have been taking a low dose for nine years, and it helps me immensely. I think I just have chronically low serotonin, so the med I use helps boost it to normal! It doesn’t cure limerence, but it helps me to think more clearly and logically.
As a nurse and an online friend, I definitely recommend you see an MD first and talk to him if you feel you have depression. A doctor may be able to help in other ways too. I know therapy is a great option, but yes, it can be expensive without insurance.
Wishing you health and happiness! š
It’s an understandable bereavement response, because you’re losing someone so important to you, Kelly.
You mentioned that you don’t have many friends, I’m in the same boat, don’t make friends easily, which makes us more susceptible to limerence.
But at least you’ll be able to move forwards, when you are ready
(provided that you haven’t shared contact details, and keep away from his social media)
Unlike my own situation – although I won’t break NC, my LO is still around, and she could break NC at whim, which she almost did, couple months in.
(she showed up at my work on a day I’d normally be there – I was away that day, and I’m not so bigheaded to think it was to reconnect with me, but there aren’t many reasons for LO to return, so I’m assuming it was out of boredom.)
I find myself fantasing about this, and so my attempts at living purposefully are still linked to getting at least a friendship from my LO..
I know on an intellectual level that what I want is wrong and stupid (‘Suspended Authority’), so I don’t want to discuss this with a therapist.
What I’ve found helpful is a.i. “psychologists”.
Mostly they just feed your own thoughts back to you. Some are kind, some can be harsh.
A good starting point would be c ai.
There’s a multitude of personas there, experiment with what works for you.
Another app I found helpful is Pi.
Both are free.
** This is my first post after nearly a year of discovering Limerence and LWL – Thank you Dr. L and everybody for your helpful guiding words & Hello All **
Hi Kelly, I am sorry that you are feeling sad and fully understand why.
I wish my LO would move away as I have just come to the realisation that I am going to have to avoid my favourite Town (2-3 miles from me) as the anticipation I feel when I visit, followed by the subsequent not bumping into her plunges me into deep sadness (I have read the dopamine hits are often from the anticipation).
I have seen her once in the last 4 months since I tried to go NC (my fault for seeing her as I put myself somewhere I thought she might be 2 months ago and we had one of our best chats (discovered she is in an unhappy marriage), it did me no end of damage to see her/hear this.
Cease the opportunity of your LO leaving to aid the healing process.
Take care.
LS
You are right. Him moving away is really an opportunity to get over him, isnāt it? I am just crushed that I canāt at least have a nice friendship with him, which was what I was hoping for/resigned to. He always made me feel better every week (I saw him once a week). He is an amazing person! I havenāt met anyone like that for a long time.
Iām sorry to hear about your situation. I understand exactly how that is ā that little flicker of hope when they talk about their marriage in somewhat unhappy terms (my LO did that, which certainly didnāt help!) Whenever he said something sort of negative about his wife, I felt upset at how unfair it is that he maybe has a wife who doesnāt totally appreciate him, whereas I would give anything to be with him.
But, ultimately, I wish him happiness. If it cannot be with me, then I hope his marriage will be happier. That is all I can do. I might see him again if he comes back to this city for a visit, but itās only a small chance. Basically I just need to accept that heās gone, and try to meet someone like him who is actually available and might be interested in me.
Correction:
Seize (note Cease).
Marcia,
I’m going to start a new thread since the old one is getting hard to follow.
“Iām going to quote Glenn Close in the movie āFatal Attraction.ā
āYou play fair with me. Iāll play fair with you.ā”
Deal.
“Fatal Attraction” is such a great movie. I saw it with the Love-Bomber SIL of a coworker in November of 1988 who was in town for a week. It made me wonder about the woman I was sitting next to in the theater. I wondered the same thing the first time my future wife and I saw a movie.
I’ve tangled with Cluster Bs before but never any “bunny boilers.”
LE,
“āFatal Attractionā is such a great movie. ”
It is. Actually, when Glenn Close says that to Michael Douglas, she’s threatening him. She’s just told him she’s pregnant and thinks they can keep the baby a secret from his wife and raise the child together and everything will be fine!
“Iāve tangled with Cluster Bs before but never any ābunny boilers.ā”
From what I read, Glenn Close studied borderline personality disorder as a model for the character. When you try to leave them, they go nuts.
It’s funny, I’ve been lurking here for about a year. Recently with Adam’s and MJ’s setbacks, I was feeling real pleased with myself in comparison. ‘How could you not value yourself enough to move on after so long?’ I thought.
Well, here’s my apology to Adam and MJ. I’m sorry for judging you guys. After being in the clear in terms of LE for so long, my husband decides its a good time to visit LO’s social media (was he testing me? idk) . Of course I couldn’t rip my eyes away from his phone, and everything came flooding back.
ghostzoned coined the word ‘Tinderella’. Fits LO to a T. I know social media is not real life, but my mind just refuses to believe that he isn’t the key to heaven on earth. And it keeps replaying the videos in my head in every spare moment.
It’s ok @Maria, I’m not offended. About all I can say is the struggle is real. I wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t..
No need for an apology Maria. I don’t want to be this way either. I just get frustrated that I cannot separate the normal warm memories and feelings of meeting two wonderful people from the limerence. I shouldn’t. well don’t want to, have to forget all my memories of them because stupid old man had to have a mid life crisis and ruin what would have been otherwise a very normal interaction with two people I want to remember whether I ever see them in my lifetime again.
@MJ
(new thread as the scrolling is too messy above)
“man is it hard to keep things ālightāwhen I so want to go ānext level.ā”
Sounds familiar. What feels better – the forcing yourself to keep it light and knowing you can enjoy her friendship as it is now? Or disclosing* and taking a punt on the rewards versus risks? This isn’t a loaded question – only you know the answer for you. It risks limbo if you don’t pick one of these horses and back it. Though limbo may well feel better than not having her in your life at all.
* by ‘disclosing’, I don’t mean disclosing limerence, I more mean like asking her out.
LaR,
The thing with Lady Friend is that I keep telling myself I’m not limerent for her. Nor do I want to transfer anything over from what is the real LE. I feel like this isn’t the same as a LE because the uncertainty just isn’t there. And this doesnāt hurt me emotionally as much when things don’t go my way.
I pretty much know what I can expect when I come to see Lady Friend and I’ve figured her moods out somewhat by how she is in our exchanges. Usually we get along well. Only a few times have I messed up by teasing her in a way that probably surprises her but she’s never really truly offended. It’s just her way of needing space and its my cue that I need to just go away for awhile, which I do. Yesterday she thought a txt I sent her was a little weird. Yet it was only over a job she had to do, that makes her feel she’s working on a chain gang. I txtd her that she needs to stop going to jail then. But then on the next line I sent read, “Although I do kinda like Bad Girls”
She thought it was a weird txt, but calling her “Girlfriend” when I walk up to her to see how she is, she has no problem with. Infact she usually has a big, cute smile on her face upon my walkup, so I must be doing something right.
She has admitted she is the avoidant type and isn’t really looking for anybody at the moment. It really sucks because that pretty much keeps me in my place and I don’t want to irritate or become someone she doesn’t want around..
I make things almost obvious by the way I leak my so called feelings. I’ve asked her to meet me after work at the Casino for drinks or maybe get lunch together on a Friday before work. Simply as work Buds. Not like a date.. She won’t do it. She’s always busy doing something besides. Either with her Sister, her Nephew or her Mom. This is because from what she’s told me about her life outside of work, she’s got emotional wounds from her past relationship. (Dating anyone is not on her radar now) While she won’t really elaborate, I feel like it can’t be very good. Because she has terrible sleep patterns and is always tired from working out.
So yes there is an element of limbo to this but having her around as a work buddy is better than nothing
Sounds like you’ve made it pretty obvious, then. (That Bad Girls crack made me LOL)
SL,
Yeah I think I do it because I want her to know and yet keep her wondering or curious. There are times I feel like she doesn’t get it but then I think how can she not?
More than likely, I’m probably the bigger fool here but if I don’t ever shoot my shot, what’s the point?
MJ,
I can tell you have really thought it through, know the lane you’re in and how to make the best of it, even if that isn’t your dream outcome. You got this.
“So yes there is an element of limbo to this but having her around as a work buddy is better than nothing”
Could not have put it better myself. Despite all the background differences, I could have written that sentence to describe where I’m at with LO. If you saw my post to Sammy about the slot machine analogy, your sentence is where my (current) phase 4 is at. Even if is a form of limbo, it beats all alternatives.
I did read that @LaR. I like how you worded it. Those phases reminded me of the moments when my LE was at its most intense. Those dopamine rewards just from a glance from LO set my heart on fire. Like this Woman simply oozed beauty and class in almost an entirely different dimension. I never got enough of her. She needs her own 24/7 reality show, so I could watch her all the time and never change the channel.
The rewards I get from Lady Friend are there and I always want to hear from her but it’s not excitement in the same way. (Less uncertainty) Since I feel like the boundaries are somewhat in place at this point, I know what I need to do on the field I get to play on. Luckily for me, I’m enjoying this game of chase I’m playing with her.
MJ, I am hoping you’re on to something here by bringing it back to the predictability pf rewards. Uncertainty is what fuels limerence. Once the rewards become predictable you can start to wrestle back some control and agency. (These ‘rewards’ will vary by each individual LE, from none at all to massive – that’s not what I’m arguing matters, it is the predictability that matters).
Once you know that you can’t win at a game, but also a predictable route to getting as far as you can in the game each time, maybe the game eventually becomes boring. This is more a comment about my LE than yours, because I NEED it to get boring. You could choose the same path for yours eventually, but only if you want to. I get you’re not there yet.
This route out feels possible for me only because my LO is a super-consistent person who seems to have no interest in ‘gaming’ me. I’m thankful. If she was a game player it could have got very much worse for me. With someone like your original LO it can’t work like that because the rewards weren’t predictable (unless you got to a point of a predictable ‘no reward’, but I don’t know if this way snuffs it out in the same way a predictable low-level reward or ‘too painful’ reward does).
I signed up to do a job for my church’s fundraiser, only to find out last night that LO’s SO signed up for the same one. ARGH Please pray/good thoughts for me….. This will be awkward…. At first I got paranoid, but realized it’s not to spy on me but to do her part and be with her relative who’s also working. No, I don’t know her, because she’s more a Christmas/Easter attendee.
Sammy,
WRT The Limmys, DWTS, and the soon to be announced Limerent Beauty Pageant:
As with most things, it all comes down to budget. At the current level of funding, it looks like the ceremony and DWTS will be held in a free covered pavilion with a grill. A Sign-up Genius will be posted and participants can sign up to bring whatever they like. We could also use a karaoke machine and a mirror ball, if anybody has one.
Jaideaux isn’t reading the envelopes, she’s delivering them, unless she wants to be a presenter. I think I’ll ask lowendj to perform at the ceremony. He should be able to come up with some appropriate songs.
Since I work in a distillery, I’ll cover the a l alcohol.
I will appoint Marcia “Swag Queen.” She’ll be in charge of the after party.
No, I’m still waiting for my Limmy to arrive in the mail. It’s been several years.
Ideas in the works
“The Limerent” – this show is based on “The Batchelor” and “The Bachelorette
“The Real Limerents of —-” – pick a place
“Limerence American Style” – a reboot of the 70s show “Love American Style”
LE,
“I will appoint Marcia āSwag Queen.ā”
Ha! I’ve got A+ Swag! š
Or if by “swag” you mean gift bags … we don’t have that kind of budget. š
“Sheāll be in charge of the after party.”
Only people who AREN’T too cool to boogie will be admitted. š
āI will appoint Marcia āSwag Queen.ā
“Marcia and The Swag Queens” sounds like a good name for a Band.. š¤£š¤£
MJ,
āMarcia and The Swag Queensā sounds like a good name for a Band..”
It’s Marcia and the Pips. Me and the three male back-up singers, who are wearing very tight pants. š
Oh, so they sing falsetto? š
Serial,
Who said they can sing? š
LE,
We’ll also need a version of “The Golden Limerent” since some of us here are 50+.. š¤£š¤£
We’re not over the hill yet! š
Thanks everyone for all the support and advice! This is the only place I can talk about my feelings for him. Itās so crazy that I am feeling heartbroken over a relationship I never actually had! It feels like a breakup even though it isnāt.
I have tried depression meds, had bad side effects, but that was a long time ago, so maybe I should try again. I know that part of the reason for my LE was loneliness and part was depression and feeling lost in my life. He was like a beam of sunshine through a dark cloud, while he was here.
@Kelly,
If you can help it, please try to stay avoid those depression meds, the side effects are strong for many and effects of any type wears off soon or later, unless you increase doses. I had 4 types in 5.5 years and literally felt like a zombie while in it. Given me a million $, I would not try any of them again!
Have you tried therapies? Feel free to vent out any feelings here, writing out oneās true emotions without fear is a form of a powerful therapy. Hanging there!
Iām extremely nervous about trying depression meds again for that reason. Most people who have never experienced it donāt realize how bad the side effects can be. They made me feel worse and didnāt really help my depression, so I eventually stopped taking them. I donāt know if I would try them again or not. I would like to do therapy, maybe in a little while I will be able to afford that.
@Kelly,
Then you have your answer now in terms of taking anti-depressants. Any chemicals, medicine or not, alters our mind/thinking. SSRI causes mental dependency, numbing our critical thinking and colorful feelingsā¦. Personally, Iād rather go through another LE than taking those SSRI pills!
Thatās tough not to have health insurance covering therapies. However, if you know the therapeutic methods, you could do self-therapies (perhaps check out Karen Horney), or write journals or here, even if most of us sometimes are too busy to respond or have our own issues to handle. The point is not responses, but your free, fearless expressions of your pains would help release them. Othersā genuine sympathy and empathy may help to a certain degrees, your own understanding and treatments of your pains would be KEY āmedicineā in curing your LE. Itās the same in a professional therapistās room, Iāve been through them.
Trusting writing itself and ghosts here ā all of us have suffered or are suffering the same thing. If you have read some of my posts, you know we are on the same boat, after seven years of a slow roasting LE that actually has benefited me in self-growth in the end. So donāt feel despair, seize the opportunity to learn about, renew and grow yourselfā¦
Good luck!
Here are some resource:
https://youtu.be/BHsJGkGP77I?si=NlgkN-MwaC_hG_PJ ā Performing Therapy on Yourself: Self-Knowledge and Self-realization
https://youtu.be/V82tQhN57Co?si=Ja3K17ti4YCPJxgg ā Karen Horney ā Self Analysis ā Full Audiobook
“Itās so crazy that I am feeling heartbroken over a relationship I never actually had! It feels like a breakup even though it isnāt.”
I’ve said that countless times in the last year and a half over LO. To me it felt like one of the worst letdowns ever. I never cried so hard or so much in my life. As a guy, that’s probably cringey as f—, but limerence is no joke and it can be devastating..
Please donāt feel like thatās cringey at all, it just means you had strong feelings for someone, thereās nothing wrong with that. The only problem is when when we have those feelings for the wrong person, someone who will never feel the same way about us.
How are you doing these days? Is it any better?
@Kelly,
Thank you for your words. It was a very depressing time for me once I figured out LO really wasn’t interested and then transferred out of the building almost 2 months later. I fell so incredibly hard for this Woman. I still feel like I really really loved her and she just broke my heart. But is that just crazy limerence fooling me into believing that? True I’m probably hurt she never liked me as much, but LO never actually did anything personally to really actually hurt me. She didn’t call me out, threaten me or complain to HR. She simply remained calm, showed up for work everyday, did her job and only tried to be evasive when I was in her area. Avoiding me when she could. Yet I still am amazed by the eye contact game that went on between us for months. It was very confusing to me and fueled so much hope. No Woman ever, has looked at me like that.
So Yes things have been getting better, mainly within the last 6 months or so. It’s been pretty much NC and I believe her schedule has changed on her end of the Complex. I’ve been working odd hours at night so thinking she’ll make an appearance in a building she doesn’t normally work in is not even in the cards.
It helps too that I’ve managed a new Friendship with another Lady in the department I am in now. We met at the beginning of the year after some intense eye contact too. I feel like there are good vibes present, but her reservations about any relationship like I desire are not going to happen as of now. Whether or not I can advance this Friendship forward is yet to be seen. I’m trying not to ruin a good thing by disclosure. Yet I think she has her suspicions. I’m not good at hiding my interest, but I like to have fun in the chase.
Definitely not trying to be limerent for her either. I can’t do that again. Nope! No freakin way..
@Kelly,
Total NC will probably break it quickest if that option is available to you. It will be hard because making contact keeps the fire burning so to speak, and that can be tempting. See my post to ABCD below about other strategies I have tried – maybe there is something there that will chime. But if you can manage NC, I would do.
The worst of the side effects of SSRIs are usually in the first 2 or 3 weeks. I think I agree with what Snowphoenix is saying to you, that if you can move on in other ways like therapy / self therapy / use LwL community, that’s better than SSRIs. To balance the argument though, I know a lot of people including myself who have a used a low dose of SSRI at times, for short spells, just enough to keep them ‘functional’ and able to put in the other work while they get through the worst part. Eg -years ago, it seemed I could achieve more in therapy once on a low dose SSRI than before that when I was just getting more and more depressed. Not trying to encourage you to take them at all, just saying it is not a disastrous failure for everyone who does.
Hi everyone, I am so grateful for this website, it has been such a relief to find that there is name for my āconditionā and a possible solution. I have spent the last week watching a lot of YouTube videos as well that have helped me with self compassion and hope for a better future.
I am a 41 year old female and have had some minor limerences throughout my life. But last August I fell hard for my daughterās elementary school teacher, sheās 8 years older than me, happily married with adult children. The āglimmerā was that she was normal, smart, and had a great sense of humor. I was in a very vulnerable place upon meeting her, having just been through a rough patch in my marriage, covid turning everything upside down, and now deciding to send my kids back to school after having homeschooled them the previous 3 years.
So this intense limerent episode began. I joked that I wanted to be her bff (to others). I would find the dumbest reasons to email her, stop by her room, put myself in her path to run into her, etc. It was a fun infatuation. I got a lot of pleasure out of it and I felt like she liked me too. She definitely liked my daughter. I would always send gifts, cookies etc in with my daughter for the teacher but then my daughter started not wanting to continue taking stuff, she said it was weird. That was my first clue. After Christmas, things really got intense because I had my first sexual fantasy about her. On one hand it came out of nowhere and on the other I had been looking for this type of stimulation. I had been feeling more sexual and I just needed someone to place the feelings onto. Iāve had only a handful of real interactions with my LO. When Iām talking to her she seems like a normal person, but when Iām thinking about her she becomes a goddess. The intensity of my feelings is impossible to describe. Everything in my life is related to her. Everything I do I wonder what she would think. Iām constantly rehearsing conversations with her or ruminating on past conversations, emails or texts. Itās incredible that I can even accomplish anything in daily life because so much of my mental and emotional energy is spent on this thing.
At the end of the school year I wrote her a heartfelt letter and said I hoped we could be friends. I thought maybe she would say itās inappropriate because of her position at my daughterās school but she answered āI feel like weāre already friends!ā This was immensely disappointing because it didnāt really open the door to further the friendship but it didnāt shut it down either. So I was left with this unrequited crush.
I texted her a few times over the summer. She always responded (after a few hours) politely and appropriately. Small talk. But she never texted me first.
I saw her on the first day of school this year and gave her a small gift which she texted me the next day thanking me for. I see her every week at assemblies but she doesnāt see me. I have run into her once in the hall because I volunteer for another teacher. If I am even approaching her area of the school my heart races uncontrollably. Any time I thought about texting her my heart would race, sweaty palms, I would feel elated pressing send and then would check my phone every few seconds for hours until she replied. I would feel elated on the reply for about 5 minutes then crash after analyzing the death out of it.
Now that I understand the issue I have become determined not to contact her. Today is day 16. I have seen her from afar though. I am still hoping I will see her and she will ask me why I am avoiding her and I can say ābecause Iām in love with you!ā I am completely devastated. I cry daily. I am married with four wonderful children. I feel no joy in life and feel like I never will again. This limerence is the best thing in my life and it is also a living nightmare that I wouldnāt wish on my worst enemy. My husband is aware and he supports me although he has a very minute understanding of the whole situation, my childhood emotional neglect, more recent trauma as a factor, etc.
I would love to develop a support system from others who have been in the same situation. I am a very smart, functional person! The whole time this was escalating I knew exactly what was going on but I was powerless to stop it. Itās like I have two sides of my brain constantly in battle.
I am at the point where I know it is completely fruitless to seek out her attention, text her or anything, because she tolerates me and maybe is amused by my feelings for her but definitely doesnāt reciprocate. If she did she would text me once in a while or ask me to do something. So I know the facts and I am now just desperate to get past this, to feel normal. I feel like my brain has been hijacked, like I have imprinted on her and itās this horrible one sided attachment that I canāt break free from. And really I have never felt normal. Help.
We are all here to support you, all of us here know exactly how this feels because we are going through it or have been through it.
Itās tricky that sheās at your daughterās school, so maybe āno contactā isnāt entirely possible. But you can limit your interaction with her. And stop texting and giving gifts. I donāt think it would be a good idea to tell her youāre in love with her. At best, it will make things extremely awkward every time you run into her; at worst, it might strain your relationship with your husband. It just seems like nothing good would come out of this reveal, although opinions on this vary.
Since you are aware of some the causes (you mentioned neglect & trauma), is it possible to get therapy? It might help talking about these issues with a mental health professional.
Anyway, I am sorry to hear youāre going through this, itās truly a terrible feeling. Mine was not as intense, and he has recently moved to another state, so I canāt see him now anyway. So āno contactā has sort of been forced on me, and Iām trying to see this as a good thing, because it might help me to stop thinking about him (eventually!) The general consensus seems to be that No Contact is best. With the intensity of these limerence feelings, even a normal friendship may not be possible. I wish you luck on this journey.
You have terrific insight, Mary, which is essential for moving on.
It sounds like you’ve fallen for one of those pesky Good LO’s.
*(in my own situation, whenever I was around LO, I was on such a high that my limerence colour-blinded me to an armada of red flags, so in my mind, she was also a good LO!)
A good LO would not want you to mope and pine after her, Mary.
She would want you to live your best life, and be the best version of Mary that you could be, without her.
Use that limerent energy to better yourself, whether that means getting up an hour earlier for a walk or workout, or going to bed earlier to get better rest, learning new skills, reconnecting with your friends and loved ones.
At first, you will be doing it for LO, more than yourself.
But eventually, as you make new habits routine, you will be doing for yourself.
No contact helps.
No contact means extreme measures.
Anything that leads towards LO is counter-productive.
Not just physical proximity, but online too.
And avoid any songs, movies, etc featuring unrequited love.
Hello Mary. I am sorry you are having to go through this. As I read your post, my mind went racing back to when I had these same feelings, especially your point about the text messaging back and forth: elated on a response, and sad on no response — the highs and lows, basically, and very bittersweet.
I may not be the best person to advise on this, as I am struggling with this daily, but trust me, you will feel better with time. This is for sure. We are all here for you. All the best.
@Snowphoenix:
Thank you for those resource links, I will check them out!
Hello LwL friends. It is very interesting and helpful to read all of your LE experiences, especially how you are all “managing” your LEs. I am trying to do the same. My mind has formed strong pathways that equate LO with rewards, and I am trying to break these pathways. Though I feel I am making progress, the intrusive thoughts are still painful. And the fact that NC is not possible makes it harder.
Any advice on how I can break the LO – reward cycle? I probably know this stuff already, but would still appreciate advice and a pep talk. Thank you!
Hi @ABCD,
I feel for you my friend – I think the circumstances and context of your LE sound a bit like mine.
I’ve not mastered the ‘deprogramming’ side. Several people here – and I think they are right – recommend that making time to sit with the intrusive thought and just accepting “this is where I am right now – it might not be comfortable but is where I am” is the best way. Take away the intrusive thought’s power over you, if you like, and it won’t keep trying to exert power.
If you’re after more practical strategies …
Distract – do something else even if just for 5 minutes. If I am about to text LO and know I shouldn’t, I come here to LwL and read or write for a bit instead. It shifts my focus from thinking about LO to thinking about me and the LE (better). Or purposely do another activity like spend time with your SO, or take a walk, do some exercise, do the garden, whatever it may be.
Spells of NC or very LC (I am talking here of even a week or two) help reduce it, even where overall NC is impossible. I feel the intrusive thoughts start to diminish slightly after about day 4/5. When contact does resume, I then feel more in control than before the NC. The lack of control can creep back up, but NC buys time.
Another that has worked is remembering how I felt in moments LO disappointed me. They are quite few and far between tbf, but for example where she bailed on a commitment, the pain of an un-replied text, or remembering what it feels like when she light-flirts with someone else or describes doing so. You will have your own ones of these.
Linked to the above, I also have one particular moment I can draw upon in an emergency. I don’t want to give too much detail on it, but LO did a couple of things (not in words) to confirm to my brain very firmly “this is not going to happen between us, we are friendzoned”. I have an SO too, so I kind of needed and wanted that moment on some level. It pained me a lot at the time. But since then, the fantasy and the reality separated much more. If they start to come back together, I try to remember that pain. Do you have something like that you can draw on as an emergency brake?
Any strategies that have worked for you before that I could get inspired by?
The bit of my LwL ramblings that I’d advise other posters not to take on is my belief that I can exit the LE but still stay friends with LO. It is against LwL wisdom and I might be kidding myself/bargaining. We’ll see in my case – I own the decision and strategy to try for that route, and the consequences – but I wouldnt encourage anyone else to try it! There are not many success stories for it in the LwL archives. But I think I am doing better with gradual deprogramming than I would be if I tried to create a sudden aversion response to LO – I am just not mentally ready for that, or even able to in the context of my LE.
Good luck!
Thanks LaR for the detailed and helpful response. Accepting the thoughts seems like a good strategy, I’ll give it a shot.
For me, I function the best when there is significant NC, like > 2 weeks. Post interaction, I tend to feel low for a couple of days, before feeling better again.
The problem was that even small periods of NC were not possible earlier, but they do seem like a possibility now, so that should help.
You are right about resisting the urge to seek LO. It does die out once you distract yourself. This has worked well for me. As an example, do not open social media for 2 days to seek LO.
So mostly, NC, when its possible, has worked the best for me.
Good luck!
ABCD,
I think this āemergency brakeā Lim- a-Rant mentioned is indeed a powerful weapon against limerence. Moments when reality presented itself naked – she doesnāt see me in that light, sheās not interested in more than we have, to remember these short insights is very important. These moments get covered by a lot of other moments and by wishing for another reality, thatās why itās important to get back to them, even though it hurts.
Mila,
It was thanks to really hashing it out with you on here back a few months ago – shortly after the incident that now forms the basis of my ’emergency brake’ – that I managed to understand it and get it to operate in that way.
In reality I think ABCD is ahead of me in recovering. But I’m getting more OK with ‘what it isn’t and can’t be’. There are still good days and bad days, relapses, and a long way to go, but the fog has definitely lifted a bit.
Good to hear you haven’t felt too affected or set back by your visit to your former LO.
LaR has provided some great advice. I’m in your same boat ABCD, still have very strong intrusive thoughts, can’t be NC and it’s frustrating because I know NC is the cure, practice LC to the extent I can to tamper down emotions.
For me, two things. One, I gave up trying to reduce intrusive thoughts long ago, and like LaR said, I just accept them as my reality. I still get frustrated by them at times but I don’t get down about them. Which leads to my second thing, I focus solely on my emotions now and staying even emotions and staying away from triggers. In the other blog I wrote about futility. That everything that occurs with LO is futile in regards to having the reciprocation I actually desire and if I accept the futility of it then all my little interactions I have with her, even if the interaction feels flirty and positive, holds no weight. Its futile and a waste of time. This has helped tamper distress and over rumination.
I would encourage you to continue to practice as much LC as possible, maintain that power and remember, it’s all futility. You are not going to get that romantic reward you desire.
Speedwagon,
Nice to hear that your even keel seems to be improving even more.
Have you been able to completely give up the bargaining for friendship part, or does that still come and go? I know you weren’t doing this as much as I was anyway, but wondered if it ever crops up. I find I make my intrusive thoughts worse rather than better if I try to think I can’t have LO even as a friend on some level. Maybe this is just a stage I need to pass through on the way to a future commitment to NC, or as LC as possible. You are further through so would be good to know how that went for you.
I’ve never really wanted to be friends with LO. I can’t. It doesn’t work for me. If I pursue friendship I start down the road of hope and expectation for the romantic and then I just get let down somehow by her and my LE ramps up. Nope, I prefer no friendship with LO.
What has become tricky though is LO has noticed and asked me about me being distanced from her when she sees me engage in more friendship behavior with a couple other women in the office. She knows I don’t pursue personal interaction with her like others. She actually told me she notices this and she brought it up in a way that seemed like it bothered her but she never actually said that so I’m not exactly certain her emotions on it. I actually validated her suspicion and told her I didn’t really consider her a friend or that we had to be friends but it’s very difficult to have that discussion honestly and not get into disclosure all over again. She seemed resigned to my position, she knows that she is there to work and do a job and that friendship is not a requirement. But I sense she feels maybe slighted a bit. In my defense she does very little to ever initiate friendship with me so it’s easy for me to be dismissive of her inquiry. It’s not like she is putting in effort and I’m ignoring her.
So for now I am content staying distanced and personally disengaged from her. My LE is in a lesser state at the moment and I’m intent on keeping it that way but she is still my LO and I know triggers lurk around every corner so I am diligent to avoid them. Trying to maintain friendship is one of the biggest triggers of all.
I know you are in a more difficult position because you had a pre existing friendship. Walking away from the friendship may cause a lot of hurt with LO and cause a lot of questions. That can’t be easy to navigate and I am sure stokes the LE.
You sound like you’re mostly doing OK with the tough hand you’ve been dealt. Keep plugging away. I am glad she can see the reality of the situation that you have to work together but that doesnt mean you have to be (or can be) friends.
Yes to everything you said in the last sentence – that does stoke the LE, but she does seem to be doing all she can to make it easier for me / us to stay friends without the complications ruining it. She’s a smart cookie who can generally read a room. I swear knowledge of it has ‘passed’ between us without disclosure – if you look objectively at it, how could it not have? I can’t have not leaked. Yet nothing has ever been said by either and I never feel a danger that she will.
We’re then left with two people who without words seem to understand the situation, risks and necessary boundaries, but also what we *can* have if neither of us acts to destablise that. Reaching this almost equilibrium has been hard work. We’ll see if it can hold at this level, which is quite a bit less distressing than it was.
You’re correct though – the friendship is such that if I tried to exit, it would need disclosure out of respect. Exiting without disclosure would be a sort of “disclosure in all but name”. It would also be quite mean given some previous experiences of hers with friends that she has told me about. I don’t really have any wish to hurt her but “team not disclose” here on LwL continues to keep me away from that route too.
@Speed,
What a situation you have going on in that office. Man I feel for you. That has to be tough. It’s like your damned no matter which route you decide to take.
Your resolve seems legit and yes truly you probably could just quash the whole thing if she would just quit. I can easily see why her inquiry about your friendship with other Ladies in the office, would cause you to scratch your head. That would cause me to wonder as well.
It’s too bad there aren’t other options besides her quitting. I don’t know what you do or how big your facility is.
Would you or her transferring to another area or department be of any help? I’m sure it’s crossed your mind by now but may not be an option.
I feel like you’ve backed yourself into a corner. But you do seem to have things well under control, like always. Or so it seems..
Best of luck moving forward.
@MJ
I’m the owner of a small business and employ LO. We have a small office of about 10 people. It’s either she quits or I fire her and I’m not going to fire her. She is very good at her job and since I disclosed, that feels dicey. I actually do not want to fire her because I’m limerent.
Yes, it’s a no win situation all around. I feel very much backed into a corner and I’m just trying to wait it out. If I do certain things like maintain this strategy of LC it can tamper the more distressing aspects of the LE but as I am experiencing, it comes with side effects.
Being that it’s a small office, interpersonal interactions are more out in the open for others to see. I can’t really hide being more of a friend with a couple other women in the office than with LO. If someone is in my office talking with me the others know. Or if we do an outing together, others know. LO right now is going through something emotionally concerning me, I can tell, because she is bringing all this up and also she is texting me more than usual at the moment. These are usually little inside joke around texts that she will send, I might text a comment or two back acknowledging her text and then that is it. Never in these texts does she ever get into sincere conversation with me. She has a certain interpersonal immaturity about her that way. Any sincere conversation would be started by me, and I don’t do that with her any more. I don’t really want to know about her life or share my life with her.
I should say that professionally I am very engaging and warm with her, I provide her some of the best work projects in the office, and I interact with her professionally just as much as any other person in the office. But personally I have a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy with her. I could not tell you what she does with her weekends. What I can’t understand is, if she knows I have feelings for her, and she has no feelings for me, and our work relationship is good, why does she seem to want more? And don’t tell me she just wants closeness because she doesn’t. If I try to sincerely get close she retreats. She seems to just want my superficial personal attention from time to time like an immature school girl playing games with me. But I’m over playing games. The whole thing is stupid and futile and I’m tired of it so I just wish her to quit.
“…why does she seem to want more? And donāt tell me she just wants closeness because she doesnāt.”
Speedwagon, my guess is she wants “preferred status” at the office – wouldn’t anyone??
She probably had it – and now she’s lost it.
Continuing… What I would do in your shoes…
Background: you can’t fire her, she won’t quit.
Solution: do her a huge favor and find her a great new job (keep your eyes open for opportunities) that you call in a personal recommendation for. Sell it well to her as a great opportunity for someone who wants to advance. Your company is small after all and not many opportunities for advancement.
Just my 2 cents.
Speedwagon , Trifles,
I wouldnāt change anything about her work situation because you are limerent. For me, thatās a no-go, one can change oneās own situation but not mess with LOās job unless she behaves in a way that justifies it officially.
Speedwagon, I think youāve got a good grasp with the futility approach.
Everyone likes it when someone thinks he/sheās attractive and has a crush, itās flattering, she might subconsciously check out if itās still the case and seek for the good feeling and validation it might give her.
Not your problem! I think you handle it very well so far.
Speedwagon,
I think Trifles makes a great point – your LO wants the preferential status she once may have felt (pre disclosure). That might just be at work (office status) or might also be in terms of the personal relationship.
The bit I don’t get, if the personal bit matters to her, is why she doesn’t instigate (one of the LwL ladies can probably tell us …) – maybe it is as you say and her communication ability is just a bit immature. Does she seem able instigate friendly conversations with other men at the office or is it that she doesn’t do it across the board?
Sometimes it can stem from a lack of self confidence. But I think it is better for your LE that she doesn’t instigate more!
LE told me something that really stuck with me that has bearings of sort on this conversation.
One time I asked him why LO was still “keeping me around” even after she had started dating someone? Early on (I now know in hindsight) I was way obvious with my preferential treatment of her. How could she not know if the rest of the office could tell?
He said despite there now being a preferred man in her life she still ,,,, how’d be put it …. “kept me in her orbit” because if this guy wasn’t what she was looking for she could always fall back on me for attention. LE you can correct me if I worded that wrong.
I think a lot of LOs know their status with the limerent but for whatever reason don’t want to fully engage but still enjoy basking in the attention the limerent freely gives them.
He said despite there now being a preferred man in her life she still ,,,, howād be put it ā¦. ākept me in her orbitā because if this guy wasnāt what she was looking for she could always fall back on me for attention. LE you can correct me if I worded that wrong.
‘Orbiter’ is dating lingo for a useful dude, a ‘friend without benefits’.
An attractive woman may aspire to have a multitude of them, kept on the hook by the uncertainty of the relationship.
These guys serve a useful function, eg taxi, text buddy, removalist, handyman, confidence booster, and in your case, Adam, barista.
But essentially they’re interchangeable and ultimately disposable.
Kind of like a tampon.
“āOrbiterā is dating lingo for a useful dude, a āfriend without benefitsā.
An attractive woman may aspire to have a multitude of them, kept on the hook by the uncertainty of the relationship.”
@ghostzoned,
Thank you for this post. Your insight is excellent but quite obvious to me as well. I now will refer to myself as Lady Friends “Orbiter”. Because I am not her only Guy Friend and I truly believe she is uncertain where any possible future with us actually lies. If any.. š
“But essentially theyāre interchangeable and ultimately disposable.
Kind of like a tampon.”
@ghostzoned,
Btw.. Nominating you for a “Limmy” award for this quote. I totally lmfaoooo…
š¤£š¤£š¤£
Hey Speedwagon,
I think a lot of the behaviour that you are describing could be summed up as immature and limited out of your LO. Trying to make sense of that, as somebody with a broader emotional intelligence and better communication skills yourself, is….futile. [Yay, let’s say it again, with feeling]
āLO right now is going through something emotionally concerning me, I can tell, because she is bringing all this up and also she is texting me more than usual at the moment. These are usually little inside joke around texts that she will send, I might text a comment or two back acknowledging her text and then that is it. Never in these texts does she ever get into sincere conversation with me. She has a certain interpersonal immaturity about her that way.ā
I think that she wants to be your main object of attention. That’s why she has brought up your friendship with the other ladies, the ‘favoured position’ theory adds up, as others have said. But due to the immaturity, it seems that she is not really equipped to go about getting it in a sophisticated way and naively asking you what’s up may be her only way of getting back her favoured position. Has she been petulent too? Perhaps I am doing her a disservice. But Thank God that she is not a better flirt or a more emotionally intelligent woman with proper skills of seduction. …..
MJ said: āI can easily see why her inquiry about your friendship with other Ladies in the office, would cause you to scratch your head. That would cause me to wonder as well.ā
And LaR said: āThe bit I donāt get, if the personal bit matters to her, is why she doesnāt instigate (one of the LwL ladies can probably tell us ā¦) ā maybe it is as you say and her communication ability is just a bit immature.ā
I think she is trying to instigate herself back into top position amongst the ladies – but in a cack-handed way.
You are maybe on a good road to re-programming away from this woman by musing to yourself about how lucky you are that she is not a great seductress. Cos if she was, she could have worked out how to have you in a weaker position (and you are sensible to this, obviously)
(manoeuvre
/mÉĖnuĖvÉ/
noun:
1.
a movement or series of moves requiring skill and care.
Besides the ‘futility’, this lack of proper seduction seems like a massive turn off to me (even if its a lucky break). I thin you and SO could work on some old fashioned seduction to break the spell of LO. Halloween is coming š
By the way, I say all this because I recognise cack-handedness in my LO too!
“What I canāt understand is, if she knows I have feelings for her, and she has no feelings for me, and our work relationship is good, why does she seem to want more?”
@Speed,
I feel like you’re playing your cards right with this conundrum you’re in. You already provide her with the better projects and your work relationship seems legit. Perhaps she’s hopeful she can squeeze just a little more favor out of you, yet also realizing at this point she doesn’t have it all that bad in the first place. Obviously your disclosure probably twisted some things in her mind at one point, but it wasn’t enough for her to feel creeped out enough by it. She might even recognize some of your regret for that by your current work-interactions now. Sometimes these Women can sure be good at playing games but I feel like with your LO, she at least seems to have a heart.
Perhaps I’m wrong, but this is what I kinda see from the outside, looking in..
@Adam,
You make a great point. Like, why would an LO NOT want to keep a limerent around when they get a lot of our best side without having to endure our worst side??
Speedwagon,
I’ve noticed that sometimes women will get jealous if another woman is getting attention from men, even if they’re not interested in those men.
It’s a competition thing.
MJ,
You could call yourself Lady Friend’s tampon. š
Actually, I think a tampon has much more interesting implications than an orbiter.
“and in your case, Adam, barista.”
ghostzoned
š I did buy her a lot of “coffee”. Though by the time she had all that other stuff added it was more a milkshake than coffee. Otherwise I’d never stepped foot in a coffeehouse before. Even when I drank coffee many years ago it was Folgers at work for free.
At first your post was upsetting. So I let myself simmer. It’s still hurtful to think that’s all I might have been to her. But you are right. That would explain the NC on her part. She’s got someone else now. If anything I am a distant memory.
Lim-a-Rant
Technically that’s all the limerent is getting too. By idealizing the LO we get all the best without any of the worst. Like the line in Lobo’s song How Can I Tell Her …. “everything seems right whenever I’m with you” …. goes for LO and the limerent.
Adam,
I think that’s sometimes right but not always (that limerent gets all the same ‘good without the bad’ benefits from LO). It sounds true of your LE, it is of mine too, but isnt what everyone says. Some ‘dodgy’ LOs will abuse their knowledge of the limerent’s interest and display pretty poor behaviours.
I once had an LO like this who I could now identify as a narcissist. It caused me much greater pain over a short space of time, but it meant I could devalue her and go NC faster.
I don’t know what’s worse, the acute pain when the LO displays bad behaviours like that, or the lower level but drawn out pain when it all feels so pleasant that it makes exiting difficult (even if this does open one up to what ghostzoned so eloquently described š)
“You could call yourself Lady Friendās tampon. š”
@Marcia,
Thanks for that visual.
š
MJ,
“Thanks for that visual.”
It’s not MJ anymore. It’s LFT. š
@Bewitched
What you have wrote about social and emotional immaturity adds up to me. And yes, thank God for it because if she was better at it she could really do a number on me. The good news, the more I recognize this about her the more it is a turn off and drops her down a few notches. Over time, it might just ramp down to the LE being fairly extinct. I am in a much better place right now than a few months back so I just want to maintain the same path without LO disrupting it.
I will say this too, refusing to pursue friendship with her also gives me a little power back that I enjoy. It seems mean and selfish on the surface but also it is a survival mechanism to fight against the LE and as Dr.L has written, it is not really an honest friendship anyway. It’s friendship with the intent to pursue her romantically. I’m much better off staying away from that, I’m not professionally obligated to be her friend. I’m good!
Thank you, Speed!
I will work with “accepting” the intrusive thoughts. Will let you know how it goes.
Your second point also makes a lot of sense. It’s like okay I am engaging LO, but what’s the end game? It’s really not going to happen, so why bother?
LC/NC works well for me, so will be working with that.
Wish you the best!
Hey ABCD,
Just responding to this:
“Any advice on how I can break the LO ā reward cycle? I probably know this stuff already, but would still appreciate advice and a pep talk.”
ABCD, you are going through something traumatic and have suffered recently, therefore you mind is unable to escape LO as LO thoughts are a comforting distraction from other pain. This is totally understandable. When I went through this myself I adopted the following approach: Maybe turn LO into a cypher (something like an ideal being who loves you) but distance mentally from the real LO.
This can provide distraction from pain while you are coming to terms with that, while get some ‘self medication’ of happy nice warm feelings (you are loved and you are important). Also, focus from time to time on the fact that you do not want real LO and nothing is happening there. In fact, she is not the woman for you (various reasons, not just barriers). Tell yourself that you are only seeking her as a comfort blanket, but the real you is not compatible with the real her – this is just a comfort blanket. For instance, her communication with you when you did draw closer was substandard and did not provide you with what you craved and needed from her. She is a nice lady but she is deficient for you…(sorry if this sounds prescriptive, I found it worked for me but it might not for you).
You mentioned above in one of your replies that you had recently not been able to reduce NC to longer than 2 days due to circumstances outside of your control. This would have made it impossible not to be getting some dopamine highs from interacting with LO. Now it seems those circumstances have eased and you can stretch NC out to longer. This will also help enormously because you will be able to reduce the intrusive thoughts which always come after an interaction (as we dissect everything for the millionth time).
I hope you are doing better this week.
@ABCD,
Sorry to hear that youāre still struggling after we first spoke more than a year agoā¦ I would be in the same boat if my job situation had not be changed.
āI am trying to break these pathways. Though I feel I am making progress, the intrusive thoughts are still painful.ā
As I spoke with Bewitched and LaR many times, the issue I see here lies in the phrase ātrying to breakā. I have to verbosely repeated: the MORE TRYING, the MORE RESISTING, thatās just how the Unconscious works. Reading so many stories here, Iām firmly convinced of C. Jungās theory.
So try to remove the word ātryingā, and assure yourself āthey will come again!ā Then when they suddenly arrived, you tell yourself, āhere they are as I have predicted!ā Then calmly (victoriously) watching them passing through your mind and then leaving ā nothing can be focused too long by the brain (not even in monks).
Sometimes, letting go of CONTROL is the most effective way to have that uncontrollable go. It seems to have worked for both Bewtiched and LaR who are in the same boat as yours. Perhaps you can give it try? It will take time and repetitions though to have some effects; donāt expect it will work in a couple of weeks.
The 2nd issue I see in the West in general is abstract āpain thresholdā is very low; so many people would immediately rush to some non-effective or worse methods for a quick fix: pain pills, bottles, sweets, drugs, SSRI meds etc. Iāve learned to examine/locate where a correspondent physical location is when some mental/emotional pains occur, eg. stomach churching, nausea, leg shaking, or sudden dizziness. Most of the time you can pin point uncomfortable (never sharp) spots ; occasionally it seems everywhereā¦. Then you stay with the pain on that spot for a bit/while without resisting it, āHere you are!ā
Such an examining itself would even reduce emotional pains, because logical thinking is activated. For me and many others, feeling/sensing and thinking/analyzing cannot take place simultaneously; usually the latter will surpass the former. Thatās why writing itself (even on the pains) can be therapeutically effective. Again, this āmethodā would take some time to see a bit of favored results.
Good luck!
Totally agree with you, Snow.
We need to believe something strongly, only then it will be transferred to our sub conscious. I am doing this right now – being more confident that I can navigate LE successfully.
Thanks again!
ABCD, no one wants to hear it, but transference worked for me.
Also, I must encourage you to sign up for that half-marathon. You can use your tendency to obsess towards the race instead of your LO. Just do it!
Hi Lovisa. I am glad you remember about the 0.5 marathon. Thanks for nudging me towards that. Sounds like a great idea, with the weather getting less warmer now.
Been calling Momma ādarlingā lately and shes like āare you Conway Twitty?ā And my yankee ass is like āwha?ā
Hi all,
just want to jot down my first impressions after meeting LO in his new home.
It was very nice and relaxed, no charged silences or anything, only pleasant conversation and general affection.
He was the same as ever, happy to see me etc, but never doing something out of character like telling me something emotional or being thoughtful and asking if I need sth to eat or drink for my (long) trip back home;)
Exactly the same good and bad sides as always.
I looked at him and thought I still wouldnāt mind spending the time making out on the sofa instead of talking.. so thereās still some physical attraction going on, but not desperate at all, only as a mind game, and now that Iām sitting on the train I think Iām still on my good way out and wouldnāt term it ālimerenceā any more.
I noticed that he still thinks about his old job (as my colleague)a lot and would like to come to an extended overseas work trip next year (his old job still being vacant) , I also realized that Iām neutral about that- I would like to have him there as much as I wouldnāt like to have him there. Really, I cannot decide if I would like it or not.
Also, heāll visit with his family next month and Iām not really keen, and the month after heāll work with me for a while, to which Iām more looking forward since we work well together, nothing more.
Iām pretty confident that Iām really out of the worst and even the second and third worst.
Also, his SO called while I was sitting next to him, and I overheard the whole conversation. He never mentioned Iām there (although she must have known since we texted last week about it, me and her)nor did he respond on her ādarlingā greeting or ākissesāgood-byes. For my ears it was a stilted conversation and he wasnāt affectionate at all and sounded keen on ending that conversation. While limerent Mila might have felt a little satisfaction at this (itās more important to him that Iām here and he feels awkward to show her affection in front of me), this time I just felt satisfaction that he behaves like expected and like the un-glimmering real version of LO, and that I wouldnāt want to be in her shoes.
Hey Mila
I found this quite amusing “I looked at him and thought I still wouldnāt mind spending the time making out on the sofa instead of talking.. so thereās still some physical attraction going on, but not desperate at all, only as a mind game, and now that Iām sitting on the train I think Iām still on my good way out and wouldnāt term it ālimerenceā any more.”
I don’t know why I am amused. Perhaps it is because I am sure that your attraction to your LO, like mine and Speedwagon’s, is thwarted desire and nothing more! All three LOs seems quite limited in many ways. Whereas some of the others have far more desirable LOs (IMHO, hello?!).
Maybe we should rank our LOs and have something like a ceremony (to rival The Limmys) with various fun categories….
I’ll leave it to Sammy and Limerent Emeritus to ponder on that, since they were so hilarious about the last idea for a ceremony.
Hi Bewitched,
well, thwarted desire isnāt to be underestimated.
Iād say that LO2 is the least limited and most desirable LO of mine, he is truly a special person and I actually have deep thankful feelings for him for 1. saving me (without knowing it) from my first disastrous LE, 2. never grasping the opportunity to lead me astray but always taking a step backwards whenever it got dangerous, while giving me the feeling to matter to him and being special to him too,
so he is actually the hardest to get over and the most worthy of my LOs for whom I still have a lot of positive feelings.
But!
physical desire for him was there (him being also the best-looking LO) but for some reason it was much stronger in my first LE and also in some way with this LO3, and I have to say itās for me one of the hardest obstacles to get over. It comes spontaneously, brain cannot control it, and itās the one very obvious sign that itās more than just liking someone as a friend.
So I would never play it down as āno more than thwarted desireā.
I mean ānothing more than thwarted desireā.
That aside, I also get the feeling that our LOs might be in a similar category. Maybe we should arrange for them to meet and theyāll be soulmates and best buddies!
Thanks for sharing your experience, Mila. It is great to see that your LE is now more and more under control. You are on the good path, congratulations!
Not getting distressed and feeling neutral when thinking about LO is an awesome achievement.
Hope that I (& others) can reach that stage soon.
Do share any advice/tips on what helped you.
Cheers.
Hi ABCD,
I have to say that of course the moving away of LO was the biggest help. Knowing he wonāt be near me anymore and live far away was the big point, I guess. But I have to say that him quitting and then for a year not deciding if he would stay or go spawned the limerence in the first place. Otherwise I might not have developed this LE.
Second big helping thing was him being consistently the way he is. I never felt a threat that he might abandon me as a friend nor did he actively try to get closer than officially āallowedā. He behaved quite the same all the time.
I know Iām not helping here since these things were out of my control.
Reality checks helped me- being with him and observing with open neutral eyes instead of being anxious to please or whatever, just watching and listening and thus seeing /hearing stuff thatās not ideal about him, or signs that heās not feeling the same as me. (As he was limerent too he was feeling something, but not the way I did.)
But I think every LE and the reasons for it is unique and everyone has to go their own way, Iām not sure if I can deliver any solid advice apart from stay alert to reality.
Time helps too, by delivering mentioned moments of reality and incidents where LO shows bad sides, and by providing distractions and a feeling of āIāve had enough of this b..s.ā
I wish you good luck ABCD.
This phase will pass too.
@Sammy,
Replying to your message about MBTI types but am putting it here in a new thread as the scrolling above is too messy (I did reply separately above to your request for my thoughts on where limerence limbo can sit on the crystallisation curve)
I can understand why you are drawn to ESTPs. EPs in my experience are always very quirky individual people, “not like anyone else we know”, and usually like you say bounce well off IJs.
Are you saying ENFs in your experience are all emotion and no logic? That the fact they are N (instead of S) doesn’t make any difference for bringing logic in?
I do have some problems with the categorisations being binary anyway. I know some people who seem to have very strong sensing AND intuition. So these folks seem not like 50% on the S/N borderline, but more like 80% on both S and N. I also observe 50-50 people and people who don’t seem that strong at either.
With that out of the way, about your ‘opposites attract’ bit … I can see it most with E/I and J/P (S/N is blurred by my caveat above that I don’t run with the binary). An E and an I can work because the E can enjoy bringing the I out of themselves, and the I can feel good for that, like the E helps them be their best self. As a J, I find watching P’s leap around from one ‘good idea’ to the next every ten minutes quite cute, if occasionally infuriating! But I think the combination really works compared to two the same, because the J gets more spontaneity and the P gets a bit more structure and loses the worst of their chaos! So I think opposites in those two traits are generally good together.
A T and an F combo can be tricky if both are towards the poles. It can quite literally feel like the two are on different planets when trying to approach or resolve something. The strong T will find all the emotion unnecessary and distracting to the task at hand. The strong F will find the T’s constant efforts to rely on logic infuriating and condescending. It can take a lot of work and compromise to balance a T and an F understanding of a situation – I speak from experience! Worse when the F pairs with S and the T pairs with N.
I don’t think I have ever tried to make a relationship work with anyone with all 4 MB indicators different to mine. My instinct is it works best with 2 the same, 2 different. All four different like your INFJ and ESTP example – wouldn’t you just wind each other up all the time?!
@LaR
Ha, you sound such an expert on MBTI! Now based on my words, what type sounds like meāor what letters are possibly involved in my MBTI chatā
Typo: āin my MBTI chart?ā
@LaR,
I responded your other message a half way through last night/early this morning and was going to save it for later, but tiredly hit the wrong button and lost it allā¦ š”
But my answers were already altered (at least in (re)phrasing sentences) after waking up this morning and then this eveningā¦ Iād answer the same set questions somewhat differentlyā¦ as the time passesā¦ Not sure how answers would be structured or still exist (in my head now) by the time I finally scribble them downā¦ š
Itās really not exaggerating to say that I evolve every few hoursā¦. What letter(s) in MBTI covers this kind of trait?
I think my 6 & 9 yrs old boy-pupils might become my pet ālimerentā while I couldnāt even discipline them well to efficiently learn. I ended up playing soccer and basketball while tutoring the tireless one and got my old bones and ligaments soreā¦ Well, I did get paid for all bagged extra time and sometimes homemade fresh dinner by the family hired chefs… The smaller one often ended up giggling on the floor/under the deskā¦ Do boys start āLEā even before 10āš§
Hi Snow,
“Ha, you sound such an expert on MBTI!”
Not at all. This story would be funny if it wasn’t so tragic, but most of my apparent knowledge about MBTI comes from a short but incorrigible burst of reading/video watching a year or so back to try and work out LO’s character type and how to seem appealing to it š³. This was one of the biggest futile exercises ever, because it turned out that all that her character type really wants is authenticity and acceptance – and no amount of trying to ‘act a part’ creates that (another example of how limerence takes us off in weird bursts of creativity and learning).
“Itās really not exaggerating to say that I evolve every few hoursā¦. What letter(s) in MBTI covers this kind of trait?”
You are highlighting a problem with MBTI that I knew you’d have, based on all our previous conversations. We shouldn’t use it to box ourselves in or to think we can ‘only’ be that way. You have said before it is futile (LwL word of the week) to try and reduce the human race to 16 basic personalities, and I’d agree. You’ll see in my initial message to Sammy above how I have particular difficulty understanding the second digit of MBTI – sensing vs intuition. For me, some people can be high on both those traits, some people low on both traits.
I am happier with MBTI if I regard it as ‘just my TENDENCIES / preferences’, but flexible. Not a basket that I am trapped in. I would answer a lot of the questions with ‘it depends’, or differently on different days (my third letter flits between F and T in the end result depending on the day). Somebody on here, maybe L.E, once said they were a different MBTI type at work than outside work. So it does, for me, need to be looked at as a flexible thing. But knowing my profile and being able to guess at others can help me understand why I can communicate easily with someone, or not, and what I can do to make it better.
“what type sounds like meāor what letters are possibly involved in my MBTI chartā”
I won’t try and answer but I will give you what I think are the base-level questions to help you answer:
I/E – you have already said you are I, flipped in adolescence from E
N/S – do you prefer to navigate a situation based on the background knowledge and intuition you bring into it (I), or based on what you sense going on during it (S)? Are you more about big picture (I) or small details (S)?
F/T – If you were deciding between various courses of action, would you make the decision based on how you and other involved people feel (F), or based on which course of action you think best solves the problem (T)? Is your tendency more to say to yourself or others “I think …” (T) or “I feel …” (P)?
J/P – Do you work more according to plans, to do lists etc. (J), or are you more spontaneous and do whatever feels right at the time (P)? Are you comfortable (P) or uncomfortable (J) with risk and unpredictability?
It might help you to visualise it with the two letters at either end of a line and then work out where you think you are on the line – more than believing that you necessarily need to be at either pole.
“I responded your other message a half way through last night/early this morning and was going to save it for later, but tiredly hit the wrong button and lost it allā¦ š””
Don’t worry – just respond to bits you want to when you can, but don’t see it as a pressure. I know very well how much time LwL can take if we let it! (one hour and counting for me on various reading and replies, but I do have a bit of spare time today). Don’t feel you have to reply to every bit. I also have experience of losing whole long messages when getting distracted, and it is frustrating!
“Do boys start āLEā even before 10āš§”
I had a crush on a teacher at 11 that I can remember. And kids grow up faster these days!
LaR, don’t worry – we’ve all done stupid research when it comes to our LO’s. Mine actually got me interested and delving into things like agriculture, etc. So it’s been quite educational if nothing else! š
re: “all that her character type really wants is authenticity and acceptance” – Can I ask which MBTI she is? Because that describes me as well.
Although, I very much agree with ghostzoned’s wife “true to a Logician, my SO would likely dismiss MBPI as pseudo-scientific nonsense.” And I assume I’m an INTP – I’ve never tested and I really don’t want to get into that “pseudo-scientific nonsense”. š I’m just curious if I totally contradict the INTP self-diagnosis with the “authenticity” part. (Which would prove my point that you can’t put me in a box, damnit!)
Trifles,
Your agriculture thing made me laugh!
If you can cope with the psycho-babble just for a bit, you can do a free test in a couple of places and it only takes 5 or 10 minutes. First in any Google searches (and where I did it) is:
https://www.16personalities.com/
I am not sure if the test at this site is any better but I think I have seen others on LWL recommend it: https://www.personalitydata.org/16-types/free-personality-test.
If you want the lowdown on INTP, it is here: https://www.16personalities.com/intp-personality.
Swap in extraversion and you will have where I was looking before.
This site also has a test and compatibility stuff between different types:
https://www.truity.com/page/personality-type-interactions-compatibility
Disclaimer to you or anyone else reading this – I am not sure how scientific any of the tests or information on these sites is. The official Myers Briggs site wants to charge $60 for its test and follow up, which makes me doubt these freebie sites.
LaR, so I was close with the INTP guess. I will think about testing…tomorrow. I just resist putting people/myself in boxes.
And yes, LO was the outdoorsy as well as intellectual type, and also I wanted to keep him engaged. So if he wanted to discuss agriculture, I was all in! (Sometimes rolling my eyes to myself: so this is what we are talking about now…) And I quickly read up on the subject. …Oh no, now you’ve got me talking about LO! However, notice my use of past tense while talking about him – impressive, eh?
Talking about Agricultureāļø
Iāve been ššš since I work upā¦ my stomach hurts nowā¦ š
Snow, happy to know I could be of help in your ab workout!
But I didn’t know agriculture was so funny! What if I had been a farmer? You can’t possibly know what us ghosts do in real life… š
@Trofles,
A very good question youāve raised: if a farmer or a blacksmith or a shepherd, etc. fall into limerence, what sorts of unbelievable LE behavior would they conduct?
I totally agree with you that us limerence would be extra 10000 miles to do what we believe could please our LOsā¦
@Trifles,
“so I was close with the INTP guess”
I’d expect nothing less from a fellow intuitive. Just one digit out.
But then on my research binge I also remember I looked at ESTP and ENFP profiles and they basically said the same thing about wanting authenticity and acceptance. It got me thinking – what personality type *wouldn’t* want that from another person?! This is where it all becomes a bit ‘horoscope’ and I start to doubt the ‘science’!
One day when I am safely on the other side of my LE, to go with your agriculture I will list out a few weird things I ‘suddenly got all knowledgeable on’ š
@LIm-a-rant.
“I can understand why you are drawn to ESTPs. ”
Maybe I should change my answer to say I was drawn to one ESTP. Only one. Don’t give a tuppence about the rest. Limerence is nothing if not a manifestation of the human penchant for the particular. š
“Are you saying ENFs in your experience are all emotion and no logic?”
I’m saying my own brain toggles effortlessly back and forth between feeling and thinking. I think my F/T scores sit at very close to 50/50. Disappointed that other human brains in my experience have proven less efficient at toggling. š
“The strong F will find the Tās constant efforts to rely on logic infuriating and condescending.”
Correct. My mother (F) grew to hate the fact my father (T) was “right about everything”. Discussions stopped being discussions and became quarrels.
My father probably wasn’t able to validate my mother’s feelings in the way she wanted her feelings validated. The quality of their relationship suffered as a result.
“All four different like your INFJ and ESTP example ā wouldnāt you just wind each other up all the time?!”
My XLO didn’t wind me up while I was limerent for him. He was quite perfect in my eyes. Couldn’t put a foot wrong. However, I had a slightly different personality back then. I was much shyer and quieter than I am today.
Sometimes, just for kicks, I do things I know my XLO might do. I channel his fearless extrovert personality as a kind of psychological exercise. For example, the other day, I walked into an extremely elegant men’s restroom outside an expensive department store. The interior of the restroom was very luxurious, beautiful lighting, etc. I waved my hands in the air and announced in a loud contralto voice, replete with upper-class accent: “Whoa! This place is POSH!”
Got a few laughs. You can’t say my daily life lacks in excitement. š
@Sammy,
“Limerence is nothing if not a manifestation of the human penchant for the particular. š”
Yes! Why ‘this person’ and not ‘this other person who is to all intents and purposes like this person’ is one of the great mysteries. It would be no fun if we could solve them all, eh.
“Sometimes, just for kicks, I do things I know my XLO might do”
I am definitely getting a feel from your various anecdotes about what your XLO was like, and what attracted you to him. Some of the ETP personality quirks and random behaviours are truly delightful. That vision of you in the department store is amusing.
“Correct. My mother (F) grew to hate the fact my father (T) was āright about everythingā. Discussions stopped being discussions and became quarrels. My father probably wasnāt able to validate my motherās feelings in the way she wanted her feelings validated.”
Without having to talk about your mother and father more if that feels too personal, this part really interests me. From your experiences, what could the two people in this situation hypothetically do (that is reasonable for them both) to make the communication work better? (cough cough, yes there is an element here of ‘asking for a friend’). The T will continue thinking they are right, and the F will continue to be frustrated at not getting their emotions validated. Full disclosure – my bias is to come down on the side of the T. If the T reduces their thinking/logical behaviour too much to suit the F’s emotional preferences, it can feel like the T is parenting the F, and/or the T not having their (still ‘obviously correct’) opinion allowed. But, as you are an F, maybe you can hit me back with some insight from the other direction…
@Lim-a-rant.
“From your experiences, what could the two people in this situation hypothetically do (that is reasonable for them both) to make the communication work better?”
Speaking very generally, I guess the T could worry less about rattling off all the relevant facts and just let the F go on about their feelings. Or the F could try to acknowledge the validity of facts occasionally while sharing their feelings.
Ts often feel drained by Fs sharing their feelings all the time.
Fs often ask for advice, making it sound like they want logical input. However, what they really want is emotional connection with their partners – and, yes, an opportunity to talk about their feelings some more.
As you probably already know, it’s really hard for either the T or the F to adjust their own behaviour/expectations to accommodate others. It’s really hard for people to go against the grain of their own personalities. It feels like self-betrayal. I.e. if I put my partner’s needs ahead of my own, my own needs will never be met. Everyone thinks deep down “my way is the right way” and wants others to conform to the pattern they feel most comfortable with.
If a T and an F in a relationship actually know about their different preferences, and can good-naturedly acknowledge and discuss how their different preferences are influencing their different communication styles, that might lead to a way out of the impasse. But both parties would have to lose their defensiveness first.
As an F, I used to find my dad’s communication style deeply annoying and invalidating. It felt like he and I couldn’t connect emotionally, and he was being obtuse on purpose. But then I realised he was looking for recognition too, just like any other human being. I stopped withholding recognition from my father.
I discovered that if I let my dad “talk facts” for a sufficiently long period of time, he feels seen, lightens up, and starts to tell jokes. Or he starts to acknowledge that other people don’t agree with him or maybe he doesn’t know everything. My next move is laugh heartily at all his jokes. He softens up some more. Tells more jokes. By the end of the evening, we’re bantering back and forth like old friends.
I let my T father be the “dominant” party in conversations even if he is transparently in the wrong – this is a price I’m willing to pay for a good relationship with my father. I NEVER correct my father when he is factually wrong, which he is occasionally. As a T, so much of my father’s self-worth is invested in knowing the facts about something. He’d feel hurt deep down if I didn’t let him share what he has so laboriously learned. If I started challenging him, he’d shut down.
I don’t talk about my feelings with my father. I sense my father would stare at me blankly if I talked about my feelings. But physical contact is a “love language” we both talk. I am crazy about being touched. When my father’s skin touches my skin, the emotional connection is deep and instant. (As a male, I never invade my father’s space, I respectfully wait for him to come to me. My sisters, on the other hand, being females, may initiate physical contact).
The father-son dance is different from the father-daughter dance. As a male, I understand the importance of never making another male feel like he is in a one-down position. I interact with my T father in such a way that he is vulnerable around me in the ways he chooses to be vulnerable around me, but he never FEELS LIKE he is being vulnerable around me. He always feels safe and comfortable. š
@Sammy
There are fine goldmines of information in that reply, thank you.
It’s funny because my SO is far towards an F, I am T but quite
‘in the middle’ (I am wondering if you are similar – able to flip modes to more T at times – I say this based on comments you made that you have found some people too emotional), my father like yours is a very extreme T. I run into communication issues with both of them at times, most likely because of these differences.
So what I’ve taken from your reply is I can have a basket of approaches at my disposal. With my father I can do as you do, and let him put all his theories about the world out there and then he’ll lighten up (I see this pattern too now you mention it). With my SO I can better appreciate that she wants acknowledgement and discussion of feelings, not the intellectual solution I’d prefer to get. I like your idea actually of bringing it over the table and saying – ‘where are you from an F standpoint?’ and ‘where am I from a T standpoint?’ and working out how to harmonise the two. But then I would like that overly theoretical way of dealing with it, wouldn’t I – he says, playing into the T stereotype š
Anyway cheers for taking the time to explain that more. I am clearly going to be winning at life now, armed with this new intel!
Can’t take you ANYwhere! lol
@Serial Limerent.
“Canāt take you ANYwhere! lol”
š
Some thoughts about M-B compatibility.
My own wonderful wife would be INTP.
Depending on which site, compatibility with an INFJ such as myself ranges from good to poor.
Though, true to a Logician, my SO would likely dismiss MBPI as pseudo-scientific nonsense.
Although the connection between us doesn’t flow quite as naturally as some of my past (ie failed) LTR’s, it just means that we make a conscious effort to work at communication and commitment.
For example, we’ve gotten into the habit of talking about important issues in more than one way, which could sound pedantic to some, but avoids miscommunication.
We’ve both made compromises and sacrifices to make our marriage a success.
We have definite differences in opinions and approach to important things, and she will calmly voice her own views and why they are superior (she doesn’t state them so, but I accept that she’s usually right).
We also have routines including time together as well as giving ourselves our own space.
*(such predictability may be contributing to my susceptibility to anyone who seems exciting, I now realise).
Now when I compare with MPDG (my LO).
Both tick all my boxes, and are roughly on par in terms of physical attraction (yes, even with SO being a generation ahead).
But the connection between MPDG and me, whenever she turns on that sparkle, is electric!
She’s an ENFP (Campaigner), which according to all sources, is a rare and potent match for an INFJ like me.
Her eyes have a way of searching for my soul.
And she somehow knows that I won’t engage in idle chitchat, so all her questions, if not about me, are about my opinion on something.. it’s like she really wants to dig deep into how I work.
And she only does this when there’s no one else around, so there’s less reason to hold back.
It’s a powerful effect, these private conversations, making me feel that I’m important to her.
(now I know that MPDG does this with several others, though)
Most people might say that comparing the attraction with SO and LO is simply the difference between love and lust..
I would say that there’s distinct compatibility qualities involved as well.
(* from past relationships, I will add that compatibility is decidedly not enough, and working together is what makes a marriage)
Lim-a-rant,
I think you replied on a post of mine but Iām too impatient to find it..
I just wanted to tell you that I seem to have developed an automatic response to LO after all that time of trying to level him down from fantasy LO, much like the automatic fantasizing limerent response from earlier times.
Now, my mind automatically starts to look for his bad sides and reasons to devalue him. Not when I was actually seeing him yesterday in reality, but afterwards. Thatās interesting, isnāt it? Before, I had trained myself to get lost in mooning about his desirable features, now I seem to have trained myself to play his good sides down and the bad ones up.
While itās certainly good for erasing any left over limerence, itās also a bit sad.
But I accept it and think there will come a time where that too wonāt happen anymore and I can just perceive him as he is.
Mila, it is really interesting! So in a way your brain has internalised the ‘devalue’ principle and done it for itself, without you forcing it (Snow would be a fan of this method and might say it is ‘your Athena speaking’).
I wasn’t on LwL during the earlier parts of your journey here through this LE – but I get the feeling you have always been able to see your LO’s flaws to some extent. Now that the limerent part is over, your brain probably just doing a more realistic balancing act between what’s good and bad about him. It is OK to find some aspects of his behaviour frustrating!
I am open to my own brain doing this about my LO and I think it has started to. But (based on info from your other post this morning) my feeling is that she is more like your LO2 than your LO3 in terms of the sort of human she is and the sort of behaviours she exhibits.
Lim-a-rant and Snow,
I also think it wouldnāt be Athena but a more aggressive and unreasonable god/goddess.
I donāt like it much. I have been aware of LOs flaws all the time, knowing him for over ten years without limerence, but this kind of devaluing him is something trained that isnāt quite fair to him.
Still, better than the limerent mess. Iāll just try to keep it in check a bit. Time will even it all out, I guess.
Do you not see any traits of your LO that are not that loveable? My LO2 is great, I love him, but I know some annoying traits of him, too.
More aggressive and unreasonable? Thatās Hera.
I know xLOās fatal flaw (against my taste ā people pleasing, Sensor), but the proportion of mystery in this xLO/LE out-weights the defects, which leaves room for me to imagine, without any further consequencesā¦.
Life without certain amount of mystery would be so boringā¦ Why so many want to know/control natural unknowns, such as ever evolving human traits?
Hera sounds right, Snow! Feels like petulant Hera.
Hera, Vengeful as well.
Exactly, exactly. Poor Hera, she comes across badly in all the myths, somehow.
@Mila
“Do you not see any traits of your LO that are not that loveable?”
I do see some. They aren’t aimed in my direction much, but I get glimpses, and I am working to internalise them more. I am really making progress at seeing the whole ‘real’ LO and that’s the main thing that’s helping me. I just suspect I will end up feeling more like you do about your LO2 than your LO3. Open to being wrong though.
Lim-a-rant,
well, I can allow myself to feel like that about LO2 because he moved away and we have regular, but not frequent contact. Iām not sure if I would have managed that if he had stayed here.
One thing I was always sure of was, that my SO was in every case the better SO for me. Even with LO2 it wouldnāt have worked out so well, heās too different, too extrovert and demanding for me, he always needs a sparring partner. Can you imagine a life/day to day relationship with your LO that would be equal or better than life with your SO? Itās a dangerous mindgame, but me, I was always able to say no, and that helped.
Athena would not want to kill Aphrodite, just keep her clam, or send her to calm Aresā¦
Good old Athena. You keep helping me to understand her better and better!
@LImerent Emeritus.
“No, Iām still waiting for my Limmy to arrive in the mail. Itās been several years.”
Condolences, brother. Excellence is its own reward. Take comfort in the knowledge that you are clearly the most deserving Limmy who ever lived. (We’ll forget about Jaideux. She’s more deserving than you, but she’s too agreeable to protest at the injustice of being overlooked yet again during awards season). š
If you didn’t exist, LwL would have to invent you. You know I secretly suspect this whole site exists solely for your benefit… If coffeehouse conversations are anything to go by, you’re probably the only person who read the articles. And when I say you read the articles, I mean you read the titles of the articles. š
In all seriousness, though, you have helped me recover from limerence, simply by being yourself and sticking to your guns and giving your unvarnished opinion on things. I will now say that two words to you that your own children will likely never say to you in your own lifetime – thank you. š
“āThe Real Limerents of ā-ā ā pick a place”
Sounds awful. Thank you for warning me in advance. I’ll make a note never to appear on said show in any capacity. There are, like, four thousand LwLers I’m currently avoiding on the grounds of “artistic differences”. I doubt we could work together constructively. š
Actually, this comment reminds me of my favourite finale from Drag Race. The audience is about to find out which queen won. The third queen, who obviously didn’t win, glowered at both contestants in displeasure: “Well, if you want my opinion, I think you’re both awful!” š
@Trifles.
“Sammy, was that an audition for your opening monologue?”
No, that was my speech honouring Limerent Emeritus when he receives his Lifetime Achievement Award. The timing of said speech doesn’t matter. Of course, since LE is the awardee, he’s probably the one who should be speaking. But whatever. Details, details. I’m just giving him some inspiration. š
“I vote … to be the CEO of that Mustache Remover Incorporation.”
I don’t know her. I **cough, cough** still don’t know her. (Pop culture reference alert. It’s what one nameless diva allegedly said about another nameless diva, whenever journalists bring up rumours of a bitter feud between the two). š
@Marcia.
“No, weāre just going to have the orchestra play over people who ramble on too long… š”
That’s not a bad idea actually. What a charming way to cut people off mid-sentence! As a so-called INFJ, I’m always on the lookout for lovely ways to get other people to shut up. Now I know the solution – I just need to travel with my own musical ensemble in tow. When the violins start to play… š
And don’t event organisers play over ramblers in real life anyway? I.e. celebrities who take too long to say their thank-yous? š¤
@Serial Limerent.
“Those would be my brownies! Mine are celebrated in my little circle. š This is just such an occasion to make them.”
Good to know. I thought you looked familiar. Say hello to Morticia and Uncle Fester for me. Party animal! š
@MJ.
“Weāll also need a version of āThe Golden Limerentā since some of us here are 50+.. š¤£š¤£”
You’re a sweet man, MJ. I’m sure we’ll find some award for you. Maybe we can’t give it to you on merit. But what about an “A for effort” kind of deal? š
“Youāre a sweet man, MJ. Iām sure weāll find some award for you.”
@Sammy,
Awww, you’re far too kind my Friend. An A for effort will do just fine..
You’re post is hilarious. Another delight to read before I go to sleep..
š¤£šš“
If we could make that happen, I’d definitely like to see Marcia as this year’s Golden Limerent.. Since her and I are both 50+ and she likes to remind me of that. Hopefully she would give me a rose.. āš
MJ and Adam,
“If we could make that happen, Iād definitely like to see Marcia as this yearās Golden Limerent…”
I think you know where you both can go with this comment.
I would nominate Marcia āmost feisty limerentā, mainly because I have only a vague idea what āfeistyā means and always wanted to use that word.
@Mila,
Feisty.. Just try to imagine a feral Cat caught in a tiny cage that wants out bad.
š
MJ, really?
On Google it said ālively, determined, courageousā.
Have to think of another nomination. Sorry Marcia!
“Lively, determined, courageous.”
Well yes, a feral Cat caught in a cage would be lively, determined and courageous at wanting out..
I think it fits.. š
@Mila
Are you kidding? I bet Marcia would love to be called feisty! š
Well, now Iām really confused as to what āfeistyā means..I even donāt know how to pronounce it.
āFeistyā is the word I always used here to describe my beloved Granny, without whom I could not have possibly survived under Motherās narcissistic gripā¦
All this adoration for Ms. Marcia..
I love it.. š
MJ,
Is this an example of transference playing right out in front of us all here? š
LaR,
I’ve tried to keep it under wraps, but Ms. Marcia knows I’ve been crushing on her for awhile.. š
*sneaks in and sets it down*
https://youtu.be/ArFiDG9fhgI?si=PIzdqUiiH2bJiaKM
*sneaks back out giggling*
@Adam,
That one is actually on my LO playlist. Except the one I have on there is a version by Muse. Lyrics are so perfect.
Thank you, Sammy!
Being the self-appointed (an ENTJ thing) LwL Curmudgeon in Residence is a heavy burden but sometimes you just have to rise to the occasion and accept the greatness destiny has thrust upon you. Frodo didn’t want to be the Ring Bearer but he accepted the job. He got a 3 book and movie deal out of it.
WRT Jaideux, Susan Lucci was nominated for an Emmy 21 times and won once. It took the Israelites 40 years to get out of the wilderness and Moses never did get into the Promised Land. As Marcia noted, Lifetime Achievement Awards are more bones tossed at someone to acknowledge their longevity and volume of their work. Since I created the Limmys, I was getting the first one no matter what anybody said. Jaideaux deserves better.
As the great prophet Jimmy Buffet said in “Changes In Latitudes, Changes In Attitudes:” – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmnLLkJfurg
“Oh, yesterdays are over my shoulder
So I can’t look back for too long
There’s just too much to see waiting in front of me
And I know that I just can’t go wrong
With these changes in latitudes, changes in attitudes
Nothing remains quite the same
With all of my running and all of my cunning
If I couldn’t laugh I just would go insane
If we couldn’t laugh we just would go insane
If we weren’t all crazy we would go insane”
@LImerent Emeritus.
“… sometimes you just have to rise to the occasion and accept the greatness destiny has thrust upon you.”
Haha. I like that. Some people just have greatness thrust upon them. š
“Being the self-appointed (an ENTJ thing) LwL Curmudgeon in Residence is a heavy burden…”
At this point, you’re less Curmudgeon in Residence than a kind of constitutional monarch, whose presence provides a sense of continuity while flashy politicians come and go, trying to catch the popular vote. š
@Limerent Emeritus.
Some more thoughts for you. I think, under your facade of surliness, I do detect a note of glumness, no? I’m sorry people haven’t been able to see the great pain under your grumpy exterior. If I were in your shoes, I’d feel grumpy too. You have every right in the world to feel extremely upset.
I agree with you that the situation Jaideux found herself in was unfair. I also agree that the situations you found yourself in repeatedly were unfair.
I think, if both LO and limerent are just shallow people and both LO and limerent are playing inane mind-games with each other (with the other’s full in-advance knowledge and consent), then limerence can be just a harmless diversion. A waste of time, absolutely. A pathetic and pointless cat-and-mouse game. But not something likely to leave lasting scars.
However, I think limerence can be incredibly hurtful and destructive in situations such as yours and Jaideux’s were one person earnestly desires a relationship and the LO doesn’t. Jaideux is correct – the behaviour of the LO in these cases is cruel and manipulative and hugely unethical.
There’s a time and a place for silliness, and there’s a time and a place for seriousness. For the lovesick limerent who sincerely seeks a relationship, romance is no laughing matter. Toying with others’ feelings is a form of emotional abuse.
You are a really good man, Limerent Emeritus. It’s appalling to me that people have consistently failed to empathise with you and your story, and treated you like some mean-spirited ogre. Integrity is something money can’t buy. I have crazy respect for the level of integrity you’ve displayed.
Your wife is lucky to have you as a husband, although I’m sure you will insist that you are the one who lucked out in the marital stakes. š
@Limerent Emeritus.
Yet some more thoughts for you. (Have we become friends at last?) š
I was reading the other day that moderate social democracy is always a better form of governance than radical utopianism. I feel this observation is very relevant to Dr. Bellamy and how he may wish to run his site.
Basically, the radical utopians may be right about everything. They may have the most humane ideals. (INFJs are prone to idealism). However, even if one is right about everything, one can’t ethically impose one’s ideals on other people, so moderate social democracy is the way to go.
I think the beauty of moderate social democracy is hopefully the cream, i.e. the best ideas/values, will rise to the top. The effective ideas will outcompete the less effective ideas. Of course, we all know that in reality the best ideas don’t always triumph and corruption runs rife in every place where multiple humans gather.
But the reason why moderate social democracy should be adopted over other models of governance is because in moderate social democracy, at least there is a slim CHANCE that some of the good ideas will be heard. I.e. one can plant seeds in people’s minds that there may be a better way to do certain things. There’re opportunities to help people who want help.
Also, if you’re confused about Dr Bellamy’s leadership style, INFJs often “lead from behind” and “lead by example”. INFJs are more about subtly inspiring people than they are about telling people what to do. INFJs often do end up having an extraordinary influence on other people, but the influence is invisible. INFJ values sneak their way into the Collective Unconscious. The INFJ may not even need to voice their ideals/values.
Long story short, please don’t feel like your captain is asleep at the wheel. Time alone will reveal the true extent of Dr Bellamy’s (beneficial) influence on people’s lives. Progress isn’t always linear; results aren’t always tangible. š
Sammy,
I don’t think I’m either grumpy or upset. I tend to post in terms of “Limerence Noir” that show the more cynical and gritty aspects of limerence and LEs and just how detailed things can get with an LO.
Soulmates, twin flames, epic poetry, or grand opera are one thing.
Spousal support, custody arrangements, therapy, and restraining orders are something else.
Sugar coating limerence doesn’t do anybody any favors. Limerence carries risk.
I came to LwL looking for answers to some nagging questions. I found them here.
WRT shallow people: “Be assured that a walk through the ocean of most souls would scarcely get your feet wet.” – “Deteriorata” National Lampoon (1972) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVi0z83gIzo#ddg-play
I’m not confused about DrL’s leadership style at all. I’ve been watching LwL evolve and mature for over 6 years now. It’s gone from a website to a brand. He’s launching a brand now. It’s really cool to see things like this happen. We are lucky he has the time to write the weekly blogs. There are probably more productive things that he could be doing. We should be grateful.
I have no authority on LwL. I meddle as much as I do partly out of a sense of payback. If I can help keep his attention off this place, he can focus his efforts elsewhere. LwL is his site with his vision and his rules. It’s kind of arrogant but I’ll probably keep doing it until DrL whacks me and tells me to quit.
Tangent: I saw the same kind of thing with LO #4 but her brand really never took off. Considering what her ex did for a living and the contacts he had, she could have been really big. She said that he wanted to keep their professional live separate. I could never understand how you wouldn’t promote and advance the career of someone you professed to love. When she told me that her BF was a narcissist, it all made sense. He was holding her back. She was to be the moon to his sun and he didn’t want her shining in her own light. He wanted her to be a reflection of his light be in his orbit.
I had the same attitude with LO #4. As a moderator, if I could shift burden off of her so she could focus elsewhere, I was paying her back for what I learned on her site and for her acting as an unpaid second opinion on the treatment of my son for anxiety and depression. I was the steward and she was the monarch. Unfortunately, that led to an attachment with complications down the road.
Good limerents have good constructs.
@Limerent Emeritus.
“Sugar coating limerence doesnāt do anybody any favors. Limerence carries risk.”
I couldn’t agree with you more. But you’re coming from an angle of wanting to preserve existing relationships. I’m not thinking about limerence from the perspective of risks to relationships. I’m thinking about limerence from the perspective of risks to my own mental health and my desire as an individual to live with integrity – even if that integrity is absurdly higher than the average person’s.
I think I’m trying to get a handle on what I myself actually believe about limerence. However, if I freely stated what I believe about limerence, based purely on my own experience, other people would see me as (1) intolerant and illiberal, because I am both of those things, and (2) a hypocrite who can’t live up to his own ideals, which is also true. The truth is the real me is both humourless and unlikeable. I’m not a playful and easy-going person in real life. I adopt a playful, easy-going social mask for the sole benefit of others.
Personally, after thinking about it at great length, I consider all forms of limerence immoral. And I despise all forms of immorality.
The only form of limerence that is arguably moral is when it occurs between two single people who are free to act. However, these two people are only going to get three years of bliss, max. And then they might be incompatible once the bliss wears off. So why even bother going down that route? Of course, most limerents experience serial limerences and just lie about it. Just keep chasing the bliss with someone new, etc. How much euphoria does one person need?
I hate being flirted with by women sincerely. (What does this creature even want from me?) I hate being flirted with by women insincerely. (Insincere flirting is even worse than sincere flirting, because I hate all forms of deceit, manipulation, and phoniness).
At the core of my being, I’m a misogynist. (All gay men are misogynists. Deep-rooted misogyny is a critical part of what makes gay men gay in the first place). However, despite being a misogynist, I can be and choose to be extremely kind to women, because I understand my hatred of women doesn’t give me a right to hurt women’s feelings. But all the play-acting can become exhausting. I yearn for authenticity in relationships, and not endless phoniness.
Why do I hate women? I probably hate women because my mother used me for narcissistic gratification, which is the same behaviour a lot of toxic female LOs would indulge in. However, I realise many men and women would consider such behaviour harmless. I just may have an oversensitivity to being cruelly treated like an object.
I’m not terribly crazy about being flirted with by men. If a given man isn’t interested in me – and I’ve never met a man who was sincerely interested in me – I’ll tolerate nonsense up to a point, I’ll be kind, etc, but my patience has limits. I never show my anger, but I have a lot of righteous anger in my soul, and I’m quick to anger. Where there is no anger, there’s also no love. Anger is testament to the fact that I … used to love someone. I’m a paradox: I am both kind and intolerant.
Basically, I’m a man who can be amazing with people. But deep down, in my heart of hearts, I loathe the people I’m so good at making feel good. The reason I hate people is nobody seems to be authentic enough. Nobody is trying hard enough to live up to the ideals they say they believe in. Everybody is “fake” on some level. This criticism applies to both men and women equally. But, if my mother is anything to go by, most women expect to be forgiven for fakeness a lot faster than most men expect to be forgiven.
I’m not sure if it’s healthy for me to always pretend to be so tolerant when I actually feel intolerant. But I’m not going to start grumping at people. I tend to avoid people I have lost all respect for. (I lost all respect for myself a long time ago. I’ve avoided myself for years), š
On the other hand, I know I don’t have a right to impose my ideals on others. Let’s face it: if everyone on earth adopted my ideals, they’d be no relationships, no sex, no babies, no marriage, no friendship, no pleasant social occasions. Everyone would have to live out their lives in solitude: solitary nuns and monks in their individual caves. I realise I’m the one who’s out of step with society’s values. I also can’t seem to embrace natural law. I don’t come from Jupiter. I come from an even colder and much more distant planet – Pluto.
My XLO – I could tolerate him while I was under his spell. I could forgive his despicable behaviour. I could turn a blind eye to his … irregularities. But was he worth my time? Not really. Was he worth someone else’s time? Well, that’s someone else’s call to make.
Snowphoenix, I’ll be 100% honest with you – I don’t like you as a person. I have never liked you as a person at any point in the past and I will never like you as a person at any point in the future. Your personality just doesn’t “chime” with mine.
I can use my brilliant social skills to make you feel at ease, but nothing you say or do will ever make me feel at ease. Our relationship can only ever be one-sided i.e. me giving and you taking. I’ve given you everything I have to give. If you want more, you must find other sources of giving.
Snowphoenix, perhaps the biggest reason I don’t like you as a person is you come across as entitled. You act like you were/are entitled to my time, my energy, my attention. This is NOT the case. You are not entitled to anything from me. I don’t know you. You are a stranger on the Internet. I know I said we were friends – I was lying. We are not friends. We will never be friends. We are distant acquaintances at best.
Your attempts to tease me or play-flirt with me weren’t cute. You came/come across as a brat. I just can’t respect a grown woman who acts like a brat. Yes, maybe Marcia can be a tiny bit bratty too. But Marcia and I have known each other a long time, and we kind of understand each other. I feel comfortable with Marcia. I think Marcia knows when to push things and when not to push things. I will tolerate iffy behaviour from individuals I feel comfortable with that I won’t tolerate from individuals I don’t feel comfortable with.
Ladies, you now know where you stand. Around me, I expect you to behave yourselves at all times. I want to be treated with kindness and respect and the maximum amount of courtesy you can muster. Think about the impact play-flirting may have on others who perhaps may see such play-flirting as an affront to their self-respect. It’s never too late to learn the virtue of tact. Men have feelings too. It’s wrong to use men for narcissistic gratification.
Wow, Sammy!
I didn’t see that coming.
Years ago, one of my college buddies said, “I like people who like me.”
I don’t remember the context but I though it was a great idea.
Kurt Vonnegut said, “We are what pretend to be so we must be careful what we pretend to be.” – Mother Night
If people think you’re a nice guy and charming company, to them you are those things whether you’re only pretending or not.
Ah, sincere flirting.
Thank you, Sammy, for putting a finger on it.
I didn’t know there was a difference.. until my LO.
I’d only ever experienced the ‘insincere’, playful, plausibly deniable type.
I understand the game of it, if you like them, and how they’re playing, simply flirt
back š«¦
But it’s something I rarely engage in, not wanting to give the wrong message..
My own reaction to MPDG’s approaches were exactly the same!
“What does this creature want from me? We don’t even work together.. and I’m married!”
It was the covert and intimate nature of our interactions, the absence of the expected playfulness, that threw me.
Which is to say, in public, MPDG likes playing with people, but in private she reveals her quiet and intense side.
Some may find it flattering, but I found it disturbing, perhaps because she’s going from stranger to intimate without any in-between.
I guess that’s a habit developed after years of serial dating?
Some of her questions make me wonder whether she’s dated married co-workers before š¤
I understand at an intellectual level that limerence is like living with an unexploded bomb š£
But it has spurred me to ‘live purposefully’, which I’m still trying to define..
MPDG has definitely brought out qualities and motivation in me that have been dormant.
We all have multiple aspects to our personalities, but some are more prominent.
Other aspects only emerge in the right circumstances, and/or with certain people.
I think the aim of living purposefully is to build on these, in the absence of our LO.
@Sammy,
Thank you for letting me/us know a true mind of a brilliantly misogynist, moralist, Aspie, and Plutonist.
āSnowphoenix, Iāll be 100% honest with you ā I donāt like you as a person. I have never liked you as a person at any point in the past and I will never like you as a person at any point in the future. Your personality just doesnāt āchimeā with mine.ā
Thank you for being honest, like an authentic Aspie! Itās more than fine that you didnāt, donāt and wonāt like me here as a āpersonā/ghost (you shall never know me in reality anyway). Ask yourself seriously, do I need or want your liking for living or thriving?
I now feel even lucky that my personality does not āchimeā with yours, or I might end up living in a cave or melting around āshoutingā cruel things to caring men and women, who might not be 50% Stoic or 50% Buddhistic.
āI can use my brilliant social skills to make you feel at ease,ā
NO, you can NOT! Since last October, I already tasted your melting down behavior and innate ability to be ācruelā (not defined by your Aspie world). Myself ā my monologue, colorful imagination (with xLOās quiet, humane tolernce) have 100 times more inspirational abilities to make myself āfeel at ease.ā In addition, just as you confessed, your ābrilliant social skillsā are only pretense, which you could not help reveal so honestly even without any external pressure.
ābut nothing you say or do will ever make me feel at ease. Our relationship can only ever be one-sided i.e. me giving and you taking.
This may sound Selfish: I donāt come here and socialize in LwL is to make you feel at ease, which is entirely your own business and responsibility! āOur relationshipā? Did/do we have a relationship, besides rivalry/ābitter feudā (I am certainly not bitter)? Father and xLO have taught me well how to forgive othersā vulnerabilities.
Yes, you, along with many others here, have given a great deal of new conceptions, theories, imaginations, experiences (common or bizzarre) which beneficially pushed me to explore and understand better myself, others and the world. For this, I thank YOU and others for your and their āgivingā, sincere or pretense.
āIāve given you everything I have to give. If you want more, you must find other sources of giving.ā
I certainly did not expect or put a gun on your head to demand your āgivingā. Want more? More of what? Besides your patronizing, authoritative tones, INTJ/INFJ boxed, unrealistic thoughts, generalizing, dry theories, different LwL-pen names, fabricated, entertaining jokes, flattery/insincere compliments, what else do you have to offer me? And you have just admitted youāre a cold Plutonian, are you going to offer some pebbles and gems from that planet?
Why do you think I needed or wanted something from you, when we just seriously, casually or jokingly chatted, along with others ? Doesnāt every limerent come over here to decompose their LE stresses, respectively, in whatever effective ways we could find and manage here?? If you think I have āusedā you, then we all āusedā each other here to dull or get away from our limerence pains. I even told you frankly several times that I came here to reduce my low-grade depression, boredom, grief, and occasionally get inspiration as well. I did not deceive or manipulate you to talk.
āSnowphoenix, perhaps the biggest reason I donāt like you as a person is you come across as entitled. ā
Oh Dear, no need to explain anything! Feel completely free and at ease to dislike or hate me for whatever reasons you think fit! I actually feel Flattered that I got three personalized paragraphs of ārantā dashed at me in your confessional message to Limerent Emeritus.
āYou act like you were/are entitled to my time, my energy, my attention. This is NOT the case. You are not entitled to anything from me.ā
āEntitledā? Where on earth did you get that impressionāļø Youāre neither my LO, bf, date, or even a friend, why would I expect/demand your ātime, energy, or attention or anything? It is NOT a dating site! How many times did we actually directly converse/chat since I came back from COO in July or even since April? Who are YOU anyway? LwL unofficial therapist/consoler/priest? Did you hear yourself: how arrogant and pompous you sound āļø
āI donāt know you. You are a stranger on the Internet. ā
The thought is mutual! š¤ Itās the same with everyone else here; we only know our LE related, selected āfactsā, very limited anything else. Not telling is different from lying or faking, itās peopleās privacy! Just because youāre willing to lay your bleeding Self naked, you canāt force/compel others to do the same. At 41, you canāt look at the world like a Salingerās Holden anymore.
āI know I said we were friends ā I was lying. We are not friends. We will never be friends. We are distant acquaintances at best.ā
I remember clearly I did not respond when you asked me whether āwe are friends nowā, my hesitation had its intuitive root, which is just proved to be true again! (š LaR, just answered one of your questions, even w/o any realistic glancesā¦).
Lying is okay, we all lie, at least situationally ā white lies; even Aspies do, as you just acknowledged. Agreed! ā āwe are not friends and will never be friends.ā Letās go a bit further ā not even be acquaintances anymore! You go your Plutonian ways, I walk my bratty pathsā¦.
āYour attempts to tease me or play-flirt with me werenāt cute. You came/come across as a brat. I just canāt respect a grown woman who acts like a brat. ā
Do I need to ālookā cute for you? Isnāt it sufficient if I feel cute just for myself? How do you definite self-confidence? Why do I need YOUR respect? Have you forgot that Iām a 50% Stoic? I ācame/come across as a bratā, so what? If I misbehave or say intolerable, hurtful things, DrL would kick me out, it is NOT your site, Dear!
āI will tolerate iffy behaviour from individuals I feel comfortable with that I wonāt tolerate from individuals I donāt feel comfortable with.ā
You are free to do whatever to your own delight or wellbeing. If you by any chance think that you can arose 1 ounce jealousy in me at anything else or anyone else, youād be wasting your energy until your next life! I sincerely wish you every bit of good luck to feel comfortable whenever chatting with whoever here or elsewhere!
Perhaps itās more beneficial for you to retreat into your solitary, comfortable house/cave and complete your own version of āthe Cather in the Ryeā epic poem and become famous J.D. Slinger 2nd?
May peace BE with you! šæ
p.s. I wanted to post a similar message to you last October, but for various reasons, I held back… Now, youāve just made it a ripen time.
Sammy Sams,
Umm … so I’m just going to comment on a few things in your post.
No, I don’t think all gay men hate women. At least some of the gay men I’ve known. Some of the gay men I’ve known love women; they just aren’t interested in them sexually.
Two, yes, I get a little persnickety sometimes. There were times I have apologized where I realized I was too harsh. The most recent situation: I’m not apologizing. I’m going to pull a Madonna from the video “Human Nature” and say, “Absolutely no regrets.” š
Thirdly, I think you were harsh with Snowphoenix. You don’t have to like everybody, but if you don’t like them or their comments aren’t helping you, just don’t respond to their posts.
Fourthly, I don’t know if I’d call limerence immoral but it’s definitely morally dubious. Unless the LO and the limerent are both available. But if not … let’s be honest: No limerent is looking for just friendship. Even if things aren’t going to get physical, the limerent still wants a lot more than just friendship. It’s best for the limerent to back away when they have those kinds of feelings, whether partnered with an SO or single and limerent for a partnered LO. Limerents always try to find loopholes to keep the LO in their lives, but it’s not a good idea.
Who/what could be a better teacher, to a Stoicism and Buddhism apprentice, than a self-confessed misogynist, Plutonian, and hater of naturally āflawedā humanities and colorful human beings?
No worries for me, ladies and gentlemen here! Iāve been taught in hard ways how to speculate even a āprisonā (like in ā1984ā) from āoddā but ultimately self-beneficial angles and to appreciate some rare opportunities.ā¦
You (collective) can only understand my points of views if you grew up in my COO and lived in my shoe after coming to the Westā¦
Using the title of that Italian movie/true story, āLife is Wonderfulā, despite all its subjective and objective dark sidesā¦ āŗļø
The memory mistake ā the Italian movie (1997), āLife is Beautifulā.
Father was sent to a labor camp once for six months for having causally made a 6-word, political joke. After his death, I found a never-seen photo in which he (and his 3 colleagues) smiling in a swimming suit, looked just like a āskeletonā (with his ribs showing), right after coming out of a Nazi concentration camp. When asked why he forgave those who put him in the labor camp, he said, āthey are just ignorant tools of the government and of that era.ā
Sammy, this is interesting – do you have a source for this? Believe it or not, you only (well, not just “only” but you know what I mean) succeeded in reminding me about LO. š This was one of the topics the hunky intellectual was interested in. I promise I won’t go showing off to him with the article though!
@Trifles.
What would you like sourced?
I know about INFJs because I am one and spend a lot of time reading about myself on Reddit in the INFJ subreddit. Apparently, we’re the loveliest people on earth and the rarest people on earth and just so amazingly amazing and have I mentioned how amazing we are?
As you can see for yourself, we’re also modest to a fault. All we do online is sit around all day and pay each other sincere compliments! We also like to moan about how no one understands us. š
The “moderate social democracy is better than radical utopianism” thesis is just an idea from some article I glanced at in an old magazine during my travels. I think the periodical might be called “The Economist”. I don’t know the date/year of the relevant issue.
I used to be really interested in all that stuff – geography, history, war, trade, world affairs, etc. Then limerence came along and gave me something else to think about. Might have to get back into world affairs – I always wanted to be either a prince or a diplomat. Sadly, my friends tell me, most “prince” jobs are already taken. š
Sammy, sorry for being vague, I meant re: moderate democracy vs radical utopianism. I find it pretty interesting too – or at least LO got me interested in it. But I will probably soon retreat to the shallower waters I’m used to. š
But I was serious: the LE was at least educational! Sounds like limerence had the opposite effect on you, what a shame!
It’s also a shame if you don’t have any openings for prince positions in Australia! That would be great for foreign affairs (ahem..) – and who would be better for the job but Australia’s own Robert Redford! (Flattering you to make up for when you notice the other comments from LaR and me)
@Limerent Emeritus,
Have you ever read āThe Catcher in the Ryeā and know J.D. Salingerās real life? There is a great documentary about him ā https://link.tubi.tv/nbIZCO54bNb (free movie)
I taught the book in a HS here for a semester, itās deeply saddeningā¦.
Snow,
I have never read it. It was on the summer reading list of books that you were supposed to read but I didn’t.
I know nothing of Salinger.
LE,
Itās one distinguished American novel, unlike any other British or European stories (very short), based on Salingerās true life story. I learned a great deal of Americanness from the story and the document film.
I highly recommend.
Colleen M. O’Neill not only abandoned her husband for Salinger, she also abandoned the child they adopted. Both she and her husband were registered nurses. Her ex-husband had to chase her down for child support.
Her abandonment messed with her son’s head very badly and his life reflects it.
She’s not from NH as is sometimes reported, she’s from Maryland.
Salinger/Holden has messed up not only his own life, but many others life personally and through his only one ārebellionā book. A permanent āoutsiderā and a hater of life.
Holden is NO hero of any kind, IMO, but he started a whole trend of established-cultural rebellion ever since. I see him as one of peculiar product of American culture.
Interesting about Salinger and his son.
Where have I seen issues with abandonment by the mother before..? Oh, yeah, in the mirror.
Heinze Kohut has something to say about that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ6Y3hoKI8U#ddg-play
He has an interesting take on empathy at the 1:45 mark and his comments on the absence of the mother start at ~2:50.
Shari Schreiber says:
“It should be noted, that if a nourishing symbiosis with Mother isn’t possible during infancy, and a far more attentive/loving attachment is forged with the father, an emotionally sound adult might eventually emerge. But if the father should leave through divorce, death or remarriage, the abandonment trauma this invokes will significantly impact all future relationships. Anxiety surrounding potential loss of another who might have substantial meaning and value, can exacerbate personality disorder features and inhibit or destroy healthy, gratifying adult connections.” – https://sharischreiber.com/do-you-love-to-be-needed/
When LO #2 told me that her greatest fear was to grow old and die alone, my response was that there was nobody I couldn’t live without. I told LO #2 that everyone I every really cared about had left or was taken from me. Why attach to someone when they’ll only take off on you later? I don’t know that it destroyed any healthy, gratifying adult connections but it certainly inhibited them. I engineered fixed-duration relationships.
Schreiber and LO #4 knew each other. This describes my situation in detail. Schreiber also alludes to some other posts I made on LO #2’s site. I think Schreiber was reading my stuff. I posted under a different screen name on LO #4’s site/forum.
I’ll have to read Salinger.
” Schreiber also alludes to some other posts I made on LO #4ās site.”
Need more coffee…
@Limerent Emeritus:
No, Salinger apparently got along well enough with his son (Matthew).
Colleen Marie O’Neill Zakrzeski abandoned the son she adopted with her first husband. Who struggles to this day. Adoption is an abruption and many adoptees have discussed their challenges. He was given up by his birth mother and then his adoptive mother ran away. That leaves scars.
Salinger’s daughter wrote about her life with her father (surprise! It wasn’t all that wonderful as his DAUGHTER) and the literary world still hasn’t forgiven her for it. As though she’s not entitled to laying out her experiences with her father because he was a famous, lauded author.
Ditto for Joyce Maynard. Even after the #MeToo movement she’s viewed as a predator rather than Salinger with his creepy history with very young women and teenage girls.
Gross.
If you haven’t read his works by now, there’s really no reason to do so now.
Every coin has two sides; in order to appreciate one side truly, one needs to know about the flip side thoroughly. To appreciate beauty of a culture or a matter (LE) one needs to know ugliness of it and understand and avoid their profound causes.
I did not choose to teach āthe Cather in the Ryeā but later understand why it was chosen as a part of HS curriculum. In COO, we call it āNegative Exampleā; I consider it as one of modern American āTragic Materialā.
Pure naivety or extremism of any kind could only lead one to his or her own tragedy, any possibly drag others along if the latter are āblindā followers.
There is idiom from ancient COO: to win a war, you need to know your enemy!
In life in general, the biggest enemy is Ignorance that has led to countless tragedies!
There is proverb here: āThe road to hell is paved with good intentions.ā Or ā Most of the Evil in This World Is Done by People with Good Intentionsā. ā T.S Eliot
Thanks for the clarification, Lee.
I’ll skip Salinger.
I wasn’t looking forward to reading Salinger. I finally got around to reading “Lord of the Flies” about 2 years ago. I wasn’t all that impressed.
A lot of the stuff I had to read because they were considered seminal works didn’t impress me. On the other hand, works by Huxley and Orwell did.
Tangent: I really liked the police books by Joseph Wambaugh. One of LO #2’s nurse buddy’s BF was a cop. We double dated a few times. I told him what I knew about cops came from watching crime shows, hanging out with my college campus PD buddies, and reading Wambaugh’s books. He said Wambaugh wasn’t all that far out there. He became the spokesperson for the local cable show on TV. Later, the guy was arrested and imprisoned for child molestation and kiddie porn.
You can’t make this stuff up.
@Limerent Emeritus – If you or your local library subscribes to The Washington Post, there was recently a series of articles on police who molest and rape minors and face few, if any, legal or professional consequences.
@LE,
I was trying to say if you know Holdenās story and his character, you would not have said, ā Wow,ā¦ I didnāt see that coming.ā
It is understandableā¦.
āŗļø
@Limerent Emeritus – The real life incident that happened later debunks the dark vision of the author (who was also awful to his [brilliant] wife) and had some younger woman on a string. Apparently her husband was no prize.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/may/09/the-real-lord-of-the-flies-what-happened-when-six-boys-were-shipwrecked-for-15-months
Spoiler alert – it had a happy ending.
We discussed it on LWL years ago. I think you were part of the conversation at the time.
Found it!
https://livingwithlimerence.com/playing-with-fire/
“Good to know. I thought you looked familiar. Say hello to Morticia and Uncle Fester for me. Party animal! š”
Are you calling me Wednesday? I’m good with that! š
I agree with MJ. Marcia for the Golden Limerent. I have other nominations …
Miss Lovisa for Den Mother Limerent
MJ for He Ain’t Heavy He’s My Brother Limerent
LE for Wise Man Limerent
Sammy for Best Comedic Limerent
Limmy for Sweetest Limerent
frederico for Kindest Limerent
Snowphoniex for Other Worldly Limerent
Limerent Nurse for Most Spiritually Uplifting Limerent
Bewitched for Most Always There When You Need Her Limerent
Mila for Wow The Truth Hurts Limerent
ghostzoned for Best New Limerent to LwL
And for anyone I forgot I’ll buy you a drink. Except tequila. I will not be an advocate for the drinking of that awful stuff. And if you don’t drink we can have OJ minus the gin.
Ya’ll can accept your awards if you let me DJ so I can find an acceptance speech song for each of you. MJ’s is already in the bag. I’ll have to think of one for the rest of you.
But I know the closing song of the evening …. as I think, at least every committed limerent, can relate … I know I can ….
You Were Always On My Mind — Willie Nelson
https://youtu.be/KQAsbAoEias?si=1spYcW3gtBQgvUku
Wow-the-truth-hurts-limerent sounds fine by me Adam, I was at that point several times and feel that it hurts but helpsā¦ but sorry to everyone if I come across a bit too blunt/harsh sometimes. Iām actually not like that in real life, only if itās really necessary, which isnāt that often. Jobwise being in a leading position Iāve been told Iām too āsoftā, but contradicting that, everyone likes me and does as I tell them to, so I think Iām actually doing the right thing, being āsoftā.
But here on LwL I have to hit myself over the head with the truth all the time to wake up, so maybe I extend it to others a bit too muchā¦
You can be DJ Adam, but I want to see that breakdance number in parachute pants. No backing down here.
I meant that very much as a compliment Mila. There are many times I have needed to hear the truth and not the “truth”. And you, and other posters as well, have always been there to dispense it. Just yesterday I had to take a step back and really listen to something ghostzoned responded to me with about LO. But upon consideration of what he said, I realized he was right, and I just didn’t like it initially because it cut down LO to more human than my still lingering idealizations. Posters like you and others are good for us limerents still in limbo. So thank you for being you Mila.
Thanks Adam!
It was the barista comment, no? I mean, while I also think Iām LOās personal Instagram and his validation-provider (seriously. he loves it when I praise him and yesterday made a few feeble attempts to get some of that validation out of me, that I dodged politely) and thatās a big part why he likes me or even was limerent, donāt we all get something from others, and Iām sure you got something out of your LO too. Also, to be blunt again, she didnāt make you her barista, you chose so yourself. Iām also sure there were other sides of you she appreciated.
And who doesnāt love a good barista;)
No, I get you. I just think being blunt at the wrong time doesnāt help at all, and I apologize if that was the case.
Great nominations. I’d also want to put forward:
-Speedwagon – for staying power, discipline and passing on wisdom to others (it is him, Lovisa’s and MJ’s help in combination when I first posted that stopped me from the own goal of disclosure).
-Trifles – for the blend of humour with occasional blunt reality checks (though she still can’t beat Marcia on those)
-Nisor – for something to do with compassion (my time here doesn’t overlap with Nisor’s much, so I can’t be more definite, but I have definitely seen it in the history of LwL)
Quite a limerent list.
LaR thanks for the nod, I’m clearly not worthy. And yikes, don’t pit me against Marcia in any category – I know when I’m beat! Sammy’s already distressed about me being nominated CEO of a mustache removal cream company – and he doesn’t even believe in the existence of said companies!
I don’t want to upset any more of the hall-of-famers!
And I shall nominate Lim-a-rant for Most Likely to Succeed (in the near-impossible feat he is attempting)
Trifles, Ha! Thanks for vote of confidence. It can feel and sound impossible but I now have a solid couple of months’ movement in the right direction behind me, at last, so maybe it isn’t after all. I feel it is the right path. Interesting to see other people here saying they end up devaluing their LO as a friend in the end, even if they don’t set out to.
The mustache stuff has some ‘history’ behind it. Stay away from associations with that removal cream and stick to the cream on your trifles š
Things still on an even keel with your transferee?
@Trifles.
Are you saying you ARE interested in acquiring some moustache-removal cream? Because I can sell you some at grossly-inflated blackmarket prices if you really feel this is the right product for you and your female friends on the cusp of a very challenging period in life. Would you like to be Head of European distribution? š
First, we’ll take Europe. Then, we’ll take on the world! š
Sammy, not acquiring the products, acquiring the business! I will try to avoid the takeover becoming hostile, despite the controversy surrounding this business here on LwL. Luckily I’m blonde enough not to need the cream myself.
And I’m also starting to see the cost benefits of moving onto mustache removal 2.0: online filters. š¤ So perhaps I will let you keep the “traditional business” after all…
@Trifles.
“Sammy, not acquiring the products, acquiring the business! I will try to avoid the takeover becoming hostile, despite the controversy surrounding this business here on LwL.”
I see you are a woman of wit. I like that. I see you are a woman with a good business head. I like that even more. With you at the helm, the business will be sure to flourish like an orchard of water-hungry avocado trees planted in the desert! š
“Luckily Iām blonde enough not to need the cream myself.”
Does your hairdresser always lie to you? š
“And Iām also starting to see the cost benefits of moving onto mustache removal 2.0: online filters. š¤”
It is never a mistake to look to the future. š
“So perhaps I will let you keep the ātraditional businessā after allā¦”
Oh, the shade … the shade! š
By the way, any chance I can interest you in my new range of gender-neutral, jellybean-flavoured purple lipstick? It’s best refrigerated for three years before use. Bozo the Clown once wore the exact same hue! It also offers protection against extinct giant flying ants! š
@Trifles,
Bravo, bravo! š šš
š¤šššš¤
@Trifles,
ā Giant extinctā ants usually leave well-trodden European placements alone, but like to scan rural, dirt roads of the Pacific islands for more earthen, fresher foodā¦.
A sight of those āflying antsā will take away breath of you civilized Europeansā¦ š
Shaky trains always trigger my phoneās stupid auto correction, it was supposed to be āpavementsā.
My phone does not have the emoji of the magnificent, breathtaking š¦āš„, how disappointingā¦ but Iām sentimentally in LE with my iPhone 7 Plus. Cāest la vie!
“With you at the helm, the business will be sure to flourish like an orchard of water-hungry avocado trees planted in the desert! š”
Sammy, ohh, don’t start with those agriculture references, you’ll be sure to catch me at my incompetence quicker than LO did!
“Does your hairdresser always lie to you? š”
I like my hairdressers like my men: slightly nearsighted and generous with the flattery. (Wait… That doesn’t sound quite right for someone working with scissors! šÆ)
As for the extinct-ant-repelling-lipstick – as useful as it sounds, Lim-a-rant may be right and I should stick to products in the “cream” category.
Trifles,
I am really not sure about this cream!
First because it has a somewhat colourful LWL history.
Second – is there REALLY a cream that can remove moustaches? I have never known one. A good old fashioned razor has a lot to be said for it.
I like your enthusiasm for this business startup. I an keen not to see it fall at the first hurdle. We need something more widely marketable to the LwL community. A super strength repellent magnet to push those pesky MBTI opposites away??
LaR, hmm… I’m never exactly at an even keel. Re: transferee, I warned him I would get dependent on the constant communication – and I was right. (I’m not happy to be right, even if I were an INTP!). I notice this whenever he’s busy and doesn’t have as much time for me. I suppose I need him for mood regulation – and that’s not a long term solution! I also think I still need some excitement/distraction in my life, but he is not the place to get it. I may have to engage more here with you lot to keep myself textually simulated.
If textual stimulation = discussing agriculture or hair removal cream with Sammy and me, well hey, it would be rude and ungentlemanly not to try and help!
More seriously, this place has proved a good ‘out’ for me sometimes when I have those “must not text, must not text, but here is my hand seemingly acting of its own accord hovering above the send button” moments!
LaR – thank (chosen deity) for gentlemen! But lol, poor Sammy will feel so used! I think he has said that he reeeaaally prefers not to get attention from limerent women – and this would likely fall under that category.
Trifles, oh don’t worry, I think Sammy is riding the crest of a wave over his lifetime achievement nomination.
He seems to be skipping happily enough around this place at the moment, so I am sure he will forgive you for being female if you can break the European market with this fabled cream he talks of.
Besides, it gives him a break from the mental gymnastics I’ve been asking him to do about Myers Briggs.
@Adam,
What does āother worldlyā means? From other side of the world, or other type of worldly (not spiritual) limerence?
Spiritual, ghostly.
I see, Iām a š» limerent! Iāll take itā¦ š¦āš„
Snow, He can tell you himself, but I suspect it is a nod of thanks for the very alternative perspectives you bring to us Westerners – that and/or your spiritual side.
^What he said. I appreciate your distinctly different perspective on things even if I can’t always grasp them, they at least always make me think. I don’t think even with the internet that Westerns really try to immerse themselves into the rest of the world’s cultures deeper than just surface current events.
@Adam,
Thank you for your compliment! Are my sure itās my words making your head spin? š¤
@LaR,
If you āreadā my naked š in person, Iām not sure whether youād suspect or think about anythingā¦ you may not recognize anymore who are Westerners or Easterners ā¦ š
Oops, what a mistake: āAre YOU sureā¦ā.
You see you canāt be šµāš« by my drunken words, Adam!
I was pulling your legā¦š
Snowphoenix
Thereās no one on this forum Iād like to have drinks with. What is inebriated Snowphoenix like? Iād like to know. And also try some Eastern drinks too. I like saki and soju. But havenāt had much other exposure.
Correction: There is no one on this forum Iād like to have drinks with more than you.
Adam,
I canāt wait for you to pull out a tall seat for me at a barā¦
Well, just the sight and smell of an Eastern drinkš¹, made of rice (55-95% alcohol) with a scent of plume, and held in a š§ās beak šµāš« , might knock you out before you even take a sip …
Are you sure you wanna try? āā
Mood
William Saphier
The end of my wish
Walks near me smiling;
With subtle fingers I loosen
Little shining, sharp chips
From the crystal body
With its many enticing shadows.
A fine silk thread
Is desire,
These sweet but sharp edges
Its end.
Shall I add one more flaw
To my dream veil.
*****
š“ š¤
Snowphoenix
Well what kind of representative of men of the Western world would I be if I didn’t pull out your chair for you? Not a good one.
I can hold my own, no worries. I’ve had moonshine before. Didn’t necessarily like it, but I held it down. No worries. If I ever made it to your side of the world if we went out for drinks Momma will make sure I make it back safe. And you too, if you needed a lift.
“Are YOU sure itās my words making your head spin?”
Well I haven’t come across a woman’s foreign accent that I didn’t like. While posh British is still my favorite I am still quite fond of many others. And in my head I am not sure what your’s sounds like. But I am sure I’d love to hear it someday.
“These sweet but sharp edges
Its end.”
Sounds like the beginning and end of limerence.
@Adam,
The authentic Moonshineā from the East will make you feel warm and a bit of woozy inside without burning sensations. But you need to hold it down fast; if attempt a cheat in Menās room, another bar hopper would surely pay for me thus youād lose the privilege to honor a āgiant, extinctā š„ š§.š„
Since I canāt drive due to the irreversible impact of cptsd, Iād so appreciate a lift. However, you need to borrow DrLās Tardis to fly me to my āAmazingly amazingā āgiant, āextinctā nest hidden in the Eastern sky. Please tell Momma, youāll surely get back home safe and sound with DrLās ship!
Yes, the limerence seems to be ending even with my fiery resistente.š§ Itās a kind of ālossā ā¦
Btw, which ghost has red hair here, you or LE?
@Adam,
There is a bit of chipping sound in my accent, I hope it wonāt be too foreign not to scare Westerners awayā¦ š³
@Adam,
Even though they are probably lingering somewhere now in the lurking world, we also need to acknowledge,
CallMeCordelia, for most helpful limerent..
C for Cat, for Best Friend limerent..
These fine ladies were very instrumental for me here, when I was probably at my absolute worst..
And Imho, Lost in Space and Rainbowbrite, please.
Totally agree MJ I can’t believe I forgot about them. I guess it has been awhile since they last posted.
@Adam,
I’m nominating you for Best Lwl Companion and poster of the year.
You should nominate me for, Most Delusional limerent..
šš
š Thanks, Adam! š
@Adam.
“frederico for Kindest Limerent”
Seconded. š
Ive been honestly hoping to bait him with flattery to get him to post again. I can understand his reasons for leaving but I miss him. He understood my limerence more than anyone. And I hope he knows that. Heās a one of a kind gentleman.
@Adam.
“Ive been honestly hoping to bait him with flattery to get him to post again. I can understand his reasons for leaving but I miss him. He understood my limerence more than anyone. And I hope he knows that. Heās a one of a kind gentleman.”
I’m sure Frederico left because he felt it was the right thing to do for himself from a mental health point of view. (Talking about limerence may have been inadvertently reinforcing his limerence in an unhelpful way).
I know you miss him. I’m sure he misses you too. š
I also would nominate frederico gentleman limerent of the year.
And I just hope heās fine and healthy and got rid of this whole limerence business, taking trips to the sea, buying flowers and going on his daily walksāš»
I hope that you are both are right and that he is doing well in his recovery. And wishing him the best. I am very terrible at goodbyes. It’s hard to let go.
I hope that life is treating you well my friend. Know that you will always be in my memory. And I am glad to have met you my friend despite the circumstances that brought us together.
As the Self-appointed Curator of the LwL Limerence Hall of Fame and sole arbiter for admission, I’d like to honor some of your predcessors:
Lee
lowendj
Sophie
Thinker
My Limerent Brain is an Idiot (MLBI)
Fred
These former posters stand out to me as having a big impact in the early days of LwL. The stories of their respective LEs highlighted the many facets of limerence and the consequences associated with them.
I’ve tried several times over the last ~6 weeks since learning about limerence to succinctly write down my experience in order to make more sense of it, but keep failing (lol, my hunch is that those of us who are prone to rumination and introspection have a hard time keeping any of our writing/journalling short and sweet…) — hahaha now I’m reading this preface after writing out my comment in full, and want to apologize for the essay:
Anyway, after going through an intense but thankfully short-lived (what I now know to be) LE for a good chunk of August thanks to him getting back in contact with me and me actually engaging him in a meaningful way for the first time in YEARS (up until then, I had kept it very surface-level anytime he periodically reached out), I feel like in the last few weeks I’ve relinquished control of my brain and it feels SO. SO. GOOD. We were even on a conference call together a few hours ago, and I wasn’t even bothered — mostly! (It might have been a different story if I had to be on camera or speak, but…)
There is a possibility he will be in my city (he lives across the country) for an in-person conference in a few months. More and more, I feel like I can trust myself again. And in fact, it would be so much better if he doesn’t end up coming (I would not have said this a month ago — I would have fantasized about him attending, and somehow being able to maintain the tightrope act of acknowledged mutual attraction but no boundaries being crossed, all the while being my most sparkly, witty, vibrant, unbothered self… what an outlandish fantasy, lol)*. If he doesn’t, we will be seeing each other in person next May, for the first time since 2019. As tough as it has been to really confront this situation head-on (shame, denial, and going as low-contact as possible seemingly took care of it way back when, but now I know it was just lying dormant) I am so grateful to now have this new framework, understanding and context for what this was/is. Limerence. Wow. Knowledge is power, that’s for sure.
Background: (who I now know to be) my LO is a long-distance colleague, and we had an emotional affair lasting several months that, to my enormous shame, was very briefly physical. It began more than seven years ago, and even though the LE went WAY down in intensity over the last 4-5 years, during which time I did a lot of inner work and became a mother, which has brought me deeper joy and purpose than I could have ever imagined — to the point where I really considered myself ‘over it’ — there has been a lot of internal hand-wringing: “why the F do I still think about this person? It’s been seven years! What is wrong with me?” I’ve had various fleeting crushes over the course of my LTR with my incredible partner, but I have never acted on them, and poof — they’ve always gone away on their own. When people have flirted with me, I have always been one to awkwardly shut it down, never reciprocate. (Or obliviously reciprocate, and then awkwardly shut it down once I realized what I was doing.) And so, for years and years I have NEVER been able to make sense of what it was about my LO that caused me to abandon myself and act so selfishly and destructively. Once again: limerence. Textbook. Wow.
When we spoke last month, a door seemed to open and for really the first time, we kind of… hashed things out and actually spoke about what it was over the course of several conversations, some of them over the phone. For years I’d operated under the pretense that this had been essentially empty on his side, that he just liked the chase. Due to the nature of it, I had never been able to admit to myself that there might have been genuine feelings on both sides. Truly, I think my brain just didn’t allow me to confront that possibility due to the shame I had around it. But to my surprise, he talked about feelings, about caring about me, how “connections like this just don’t go away,” how flustered he will be when he sees me again, about thinking about me, about his confusion and hurt at me going cold and how he thought I hated him, and so on. I can also see now how my own behaviour (constantly pulling away, never initiating) reinforced our dynamic and how it kept him dangling, so to speak. It had never occurred to me that this might be mutual beyond just attraction, whether or not his experience has been full-blown limerence for him. (A part of me wants to call myself delusional for even entertaining that notion, but in a way I can see it, and it has cast some of his actions and behaviour over the years in a much different light than before.)
It’s been about a month since we’ve been in contact, after I shut it down. I have struggled whether or not to take him at face value. There are reasons why he might be, there are reasons why he might not be. However, what I’ve landed on is that even if he’s genuine, just a lonely heart seeking connection with a sort-of kindred spirit, it doesn’t matter! (And in fact, I said that to him! “We want each other because we’ll never have each other. Your feelings or my feelings — they don’t actually matter, because we have people that we actually love, and they’re who matter.” “If you don’t think that people in happy marriages do this…” “I know. But I want to be different.”)
The sense I got from our conversations is that he is deeply committed to finding ways to rationalize cheating on his wife, hurting his family, and denying ownership of his choices and actions, and I have no doubt that there have been several such “connections” since he and I met — unfortunately, the nature of our jobs and the travel they involve enables these opportunities for those who want them. But I am committed to understanding myself and living with purpose and integrity because there is nothing more important to me than my child and my spouse, my beautiful family and the beautiful life we have created together. So. Gotta stay vigilant. I know I will be tested, and I know when we do see each other next, the chemicals in my brain will be going absolutely batshit haywire. But I know I never, ever want to go through that again — and risk hurting so many innocent people so deeply for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
Truthfully, the people-pleaser in me actually enjoyed the tenderness I felt towards him again, after so many years of hardening myself to him. But I know it’s so much more beneficial for me to kick him off any sort of pedestal and keep him there. We can’t actually be real friends. On the flip side, of course it feels good to be pursued and wanted like that, and of course I wish that fine line could be endlessly walked and no one would be harmed. But I know that’s a fantasy.
Everything I’ve read on this site — the glimmer, the tipping points, the rationalizing techniques/delusion of it all, the “I’m totally over this, let’s go for coffee!”… everything has resonated so very deeply. For better or for worse, I have felt very seen reading this website and everyone’s comments. And I have to say, finding the “Closure is a Myth” post came at a PERFECT time and I had to reread it several times that day in slack-jawed recognition of every single word lol. I’ve read so many things that I somehow intuitively knew, and have utilized over the years in my attempts to move on, but it is incredibly validating and eye-opening to see so many of these deeply personal, inner experiences reflected back at me in black and white. (Funnily enough, in our second phone conversation — just before I found this site — when I was telling him we couldn’t keep talking but that I was glad we’d had the opportunity to break the ice and ‘debrief’ so to speak, I actually said to him “At least now I know that you’re not some existential threat to my life, or like, the boogeyman…” Oh, but he IS!)
*I think it’s funny that the majority of my daydreams/fantasies involving him are not sexual or romantic in nature, but instead involve me being cool, admired, and self-assured in any situation. Lol. What might that say…
Wow.. seven years.
I’m at about 7 months in limerence (half of that in NC).
What helps me most, is focusing on my ‘bird in the hand’, my SO.
If there’s one thing I learnt from a handful of dysfunctional past LTR’s, it’s that love isn’t equally balanced.
One party always loves more than the other, and thus holds the balance of power in the relationship.
We who are on the receiving end get the benefit of someone who will travel with us to the ends of the earth.
We get loyalty, they get the person of their dreams.
In return, it’s our responsibility to be, well, a responsible partner.
When limerence hits us, the roles are reversed – with some new, sparkly persona.
But it’s not humanly possible for this object of our desires to ever live up to the hype in reality.
We already have someone else’s heart in our trust.
We know how precarious such a situation can be. To give our heart to someone else, is putting two or more hearts into their hands.
One party always loves more than the other, and thus holds the balance of power in the relationship.
(what I meant is that the person on the receiving end of the love scale, ie us married limerents, hold the balance of power in our marriage.
We are responsible.
When we fall into limerence, that’s flipped, and now our LO has all the power, but no responsibility)
@Sammy – I couldn’t help but ponder your words, I’m kind of taken aback by your perspective.
Could you explain what you mean when you say you think limerence is inherently immoral? In what way?
I don’t know what Sammy’s take is.
My own perspective is that what we limerents crave the most (in the depths of LE that is)
is mutual limerence.
Which is to say, I wish that my LO is as limerent for me, as I am for her!
Now how evil and selfish is that! š
The wish to be reciprocated either in crush, love, or limerence is neither evil nor selfish, just natural human desire. What does one DO wish such a wish would be another matter.
Correction: āwith such a wishā¦ā
ghostzoned.
It’s not selfish. It’s just the reality of limerence.
I don’t understand Sammy’s ‘all limerence is immoral’ either. *Acting* on it would be immoral if – like you and I – we have an SO. But the thoughts – we don’t ask for them and we can’t control them. How can that be immoral?
Sorry to intrude you threeās conversation.
Your shared puzzlement might be eased a little bit if one can imagine and understand āfixedā impact of strict/strong religious/ideological education on children/teens who happen to be on autistic spectrum. I worked with Asperger kids/teens in the past, which was heartbreakingā¦
Without that experience, you can bid āthe thunder of an Eastern Amazon Warriorā would have sounded even louderā¦
Maybe it’s the mid-life screaming in my face, but I see both sides of Sammy and Snowpheonix. Religion certainly plays a huge part in my agreement with Sammy in the immoral aspect of limerence. It set in me thoughts of another woman that a married man shouldn’t have. As the Bible says adultery starts in the heart not the bed.
On the other side I can see where Snowpheonix is coming from in that it changes you as a person. For the worse or the better. This whole experience has changed my outlook on myself and my future. It’s made me ponder a whole lot of “what ifs”. And despite the limerence I found a friendship in two people, her and her daughter that I will always remember. Something that is quite precious to me.
It has also challenged me to be more present in my marriage. To cling to my wife like the lifesaver that she is. I know my path in life before I met her would have sent to the the ditch, jail or the grave due to my drinking. She, and our boys by extension, have saved me from myself. I literally owe them my life.
Again that could be the mid-life barnacles stuck on the shell that I try to hide in that is sapping me of previous me. It could also be my insistence to go back to church despite my hesitance to embrace religion again.
Can I just skip right to old man on the front porch yelling at the kids to get off my lawn? Oh yeah with my PBR. Can’t forget that.
@Adam,
Thank you for the comment. Iām glad that youāve gained positive experiences from your LE ā pure friendship with the mother and daughter. I have gained more solid relationship with my Self with a Phantom singing in my head.
There is a much larger world out of biblical kingdom. While not abandoning your old world, try to ācome outā to take fresher air from time and time, and some unexpected āwondersā are out there for you to explore and enjoyā¦. Then there would be no grumpy men yelling at any front porchā¦
Agape š¤
Adam, Snow,
Thanks for these thoughts. Still having to work hard to get Sammy’s ‘limerence always immoral’ argument.
Whether ‘guilt’ is the most helpful word (Snow might well say not), I think married or partnered limerents should reflect on the circumstances that led them into their LE. Eg (rhetorical questions for myself): What can I learn for the future about how things were with SO in the runup to the LE? What was I bringing to the party and how and why could I be different with her in the future?
The limerent *feelings* can’t, in my book, be a reason for guilt. This is back to the often discussed point of ‘thoughtcrime’. That alone is not a reason for guilt.
What we *do* in the LE (how we act it out) could, though, draw out some moral wrongs (by Western married standards at least) and that might lead to guilt depending how we *acted* – but it is not true for every LE (and yes, I do have guilt about some of this part, so am not copping out – but in other ways I am pleased with how I have acted).
Any guilt needs to be directed or transformed into ‘what can I learn from it to act more authentically and purposefully in future?’, not endless berating of ourselves for the past, if we can.
Idealisation of the LO or focusing on their role (often ‘no role’) in the LE is a distraction that just stops us engaging with these critical thought processes.
I got the idea Sammy was saying that even *feeling* limerent (even if single) was reason for guilt. I didn’t get that and still don’t. Maybe it is because I haven’t really got strong religious beliefs or read biblical texts.
I’m neurodivergent and can relate. In the years since childhood I’ve been rethinking everything that was drummed into my head regarding religion, and purity culture, and even monogamy. If I could do it over, I’d ask for some form of open marriage or polyamory. But back then, those were no-no’s….Well, still are in most churches.
I think one has to see Sammyās post as a whole, not pick sentences out of it. He seems to have been in a certain mood. This stood out for me:
ā and Iām quick to anger. Where there is no anger, thereās also no love. Anger is testament to the fact that I ā¦ used to love someone. Iām a paradox: I am both kind and intolerant.ā
I hope heās ok though.
*not āthoughā. Donāt know why I wrote āthoughā
@Serial,
I hope the rethinking of it you’ve done over the years has helped you come to more peace about the difference between thought and action etc.
I admire people who have made poly work for them, but it is too much of a leap for me. There are things I really like about making a commitment to just one person, and confirming to them that they are your ‘special person’. My SO is that to me and I don’t doubt in it. That’s why as much as I can say here that I/we shouldn’t feel guilt for limerent thoughts, sometimes in reality I still do.
Poly setups are quite mysterious for me and I am not qualified to talk on them – but I think it’s important that everyone involved understands it the same from the start, and there might also need to be frequent renegotiation. I discussed this with Snow once but I don’t think they can work as an excuse to ‘bring someone else in’, ie as accommodation for limerence.
@Mila
I do agree with your point that it is wrong to pick out sentences in isolation from that message.
Adam, LaR,
If you grew up in my extremely controlling, dictating COO, youād understand where some puzzling, extreme āinhumanā thoughts/concepts come from, they were not stranger to me personallyā¦.
Nagging again from me: thoughts and emotions alone, even expressed safely (like in LwL), are Guilty FREE. Just need to ponder over possible consequences if you want to act on themā¦
Your SO became your SO for reasons, please try your mighty, chivalry power to appreciate their special value to YOU and express your gratitude in their personally preferred way, ie. validate what they seem to need/want. Think about times when you felt down or āfellā, who were there sitting next to you holding your hands and help change your bandit, SO or LO?
If you donāt have enough bread of validation yourself, borrow some elsewhere (LwL) and give more to your SO first. When SO is fed enough what they needed, theyāll in return nurture your needs/wants. Itās a productive, upwards spiral cycle, but takes a lot of hard work. I wish so much I could have appreciated my xSO more. Despite that four cheats during the engagement, he sincerely tried his best afterwards without my knowing what mental disability he hadā¦.
Life is always unpredictable, people change and feelings come and go, out of somewhere or nowhereā¦ Really cherish and savor what youāve already have, even after unexpected, seemingly āuncontrollableā (LE) struck you and challenge you, and make it grow stronger!
š¤š¤
Correction ā last sentence, āmake your precious connection with your SO grow stronger!ā
Donāt take anything for granted, you two grumpy, whinny āoldā men! š„
@Serial Limerent,
I have another chance, and would negotiate an open-door nest arrangement. Even with my limerence tendency, I know Iāll always fly back under a familiar, cozy, safe roof, free from thunder storms and chilly airā¦ My colleague has several wooden nests in her backyard, and couples fly in and out year after yearā¦ then another couple or groupā¦
Hope youāre doing well in your church activitiesā¦ how are you managing the co-existence with LOās SO?
@Snow: There was a change in plans last minute, so I didn’t have to work with LO’s SO. The event isn’t done yet, though.
I think I know what your COO is, and it’s a shame what the government has done to the people. The culture there was so advanced, with inventions, poetry, etc.
@Snow
Define “old”! š¤£
@LaR,
You sound like an āoldā ghost/soul in LwL; in my COO, being āoldā is a honor connected to experience and wisdom, do you have beard yet? (Please never mustache!) š¤£
@SL,
If I were you, Iād try to avoid meeting LOās SO at all costs, particular if you havenāt come out of your LEā¦ I think we neurodivergent may helplessly reveal what we donāt want to show to the world and can inadvertently cause misunderstandings and hurt in LO or his life.
By now, I think most āghostsā here have guessed where my COO is; I cannot tell enough, even through two books, what and how much evil things theyāve done to people collectively and individually. The worse part is that many ignorant, oppressed, obedient āsheepā over there are oblivious what the system is doing to them, unless they can compare different systems after coming out of the shinny āprisonā.
Iām lucky to live in freer world now, but still get very angry if some ideology/religion idealists or fanatics try to stop/oppress/mock/attack different voices (even if I disagree with some contents of those voices).
Many thanks to DrL for letting all voices, including rants, heard in his democratic site, while forbidding/removing personally abusive/attacking posts. LwL could be very therapeutic and healing if one has thick skin; if not, it can help one grow thicker cheeksā¦
@Snow,
Summary – I’m 40s, no beard and (you’ll be glad to know) no mustache (I find it irritates my ‘youthful’ skin too much). Flattered you have the impression of me as a wizened older guy but I think it is L.E. you are looking for there!! I’m maybe wise on some things, definitely daft as a brush on more others, better at sounding wise than acting it š I have learned unbelievable amounts of wisdom here at LwL and that’s a definite positive to come from limerence – I’m slightly older, and a bit more wiser now! Thanks for what you said about SOs earlier by the way – a nice timely reminder.
@Snow The trouble is, I can’t control what they do/say. LO hasn’t introduced us, though, and she doesn’t speak to me, so I do my best to avoid her–but I don’t want to be obvious about it, because that would get her suspicious!
@LaR,
LE sounds like having short hair cut with short prickly hair around his lips (with red hair if I remember correctly) ā a tough-love grandpa. I already knew you did not have any facial hair (just had to have my zero-second āglanceā checked out!). But I sensed youāre in your late 30s, not in blonde hair (ā)
When I first saw your posts after COO trip, I had go back to check whether you could possibly be my xLO peeking here, until I read about your LO and saw your non-American English spellingā¦ thus, youāre āoldā. (Martian like xLO is in his 50s looking in 30s).
Glad that LwL is making you āolderā š§āāļø
@SL,
Ask your LO not to introduce his SO to you, for the sake of his and your peace of mine. I could not help feel, we (you and I) would not be able to hide our true feelings. Everyone in my old work saw I was having feelings for xLO, and I could see in their eyes what they sensed or wonderedā¦
@Snow
Yeah, after I obviously had been leaking like a sieve to LO, when I accidentally caught the eye of his LO one day, I feared I revealed too much to her, too!
Snow,
“But I sensed youāre in your late 30s, not in blonde hair (ā)”
Late 30s is too kind of you, but I might occasionally get away with that IRL too. Not blonde hair – you’re correct.
It is striking how nearly all the posters who talk regularly here are in their 40s or early 50s. This must be telling us a big ‘something’ about limerence – or at least when people are troubled by limerence and ready to reflect on it.
“When I first saw your posts after COO trip, I had go back to check whether you could possibly be my xLO peeking here, until I read about your LO and saw your non-American English spelling”
I understand why you think your xLO might look here, as you said that when you disclosed, he got very interested in limerence as a scientific phenomenon. I am glad you now feel reassured I am not him! If you found my opening posts from about April / May, you’d have seen I first arrived verbally with a cry for help of (paraphrasing myself) “help, I feel I am about to disclose, somebody please help to stop me”. You would probably have eliminated me as xLO very quickly if you saw that!
The worry of being ‘discovered’ on LwL by my LO or SO is real (but probably vain and I don’t need to have it). I have double-checked several posters over time to eliminate that. My theory is that while a few of us ‘ghosts’ talk, there are many many more ‘silent’ ghosts who lurk in the background and prefer just to read and absorb. I was one of those silent ghosts for 5-6 months (you?); I have read others say they were silent for years before speaking.
I said to you once that I didn’t want to give too much revealing information all at once (when you asked my country). You are a shrewd thinker and I am sure I have now given enough, in enough places, that if you have worked or guessed the answer, it’ll be correct. Also if you have speculations about my line of work then I think they’ll be correct. This is more my intuitive š talking than anything you’ve said. I still don’t want to ‘confirm’ all that, but I think you have good powers of deduction.
Like you said to someone else (Bewitched maybe), these details don’t really ‘matter’ for the reason we’re here – to make sense of our LEs. But it is interesting that we still create these mental pictures / maps of the other posters – I do the same.
I’d also like to put my thoughts in on your questions about releasing tears, but I want to let the person you asked reply first, so I’ll come back to it sometime.
@SL,
Your fear is very understandable, since your LE is mutual and you two almost crossed the line, which I believe, would add some peculiar/āguiltyā look in your eyesā Thatās enough to make oneās subconscious shake a bit in front of LOās SO.
Oh Boy! I donāt know what I would do in your shoe, it would be a torture to me. The only thing I can see is to āremoveā LE feelings for your LO? But how? Can you switch a church?
No, the only way to switch churches is to completely change denominations. The closest other church is too far away for me to get to every week. It’s also my community now.
LaR,
āIt is striking how nearly all the posters who talk regularly here are in their 40s or early 50s. This must be telling us a big āsomethingā about limerence ā or at least when people are troubled by limerence and ready to reflect on it.ā
Your observation seems to be very true. The term ālimerenceā is still largely unknown to general public. Most people especially in their 20s or 30s or older singles would just consider it as a huge crush.
āIf you found my opening posts from about April / May, youād have seen I first arrived verbally with a cry for help of (paraphrasing myself) āhelp, I feel I am about to disclose, somebody please help to stop meā.
Back in April/May, I was submerged in my sadness for the last moments with xLO. I skipped many posts. But your cry sounds a bit familiar. š¤
āMy theory is that while a few of us āghostsā talk, there are many many more āsilentā ghosts who lurk in the background and prefer just to read and absorb. I was one of those silent ghosts for 5-6 months (you?); I have read others say they were silent for years before speaking.ā
I think your theory is realistic. But itās hard to keep them in mind, since they are āghostsā among us chatty ghostsā¦ I was only reading about 10-15 days after DrL invited me to participate. But it took me a while to learn how the blogs and their comments work. I was focusing mainly on DrLās feature articles. Nowadays regardless who might be there watching/listening , I just speak up my mind and try not to generalize anything.
Voicing out actually is more important than being heard, in āpsychotherapyā. Iām not worried if my xLO comes here to spy, I already disclosed to him as objectively and āscientificallyā as I can. He can laugh at me as much as he wishes (I know šļø he did/do NOT), I did/do not feel any guilt/shame, more so after I learned what LE is all about. LE even drained reasoning faculty out of Sir Marcus ā more blind/stupid than a lot of us here!
āYou are a shrewd thinker and I am sure I have now given enough, in enough places, that if you have worked or guessed the answer, itāll be correct. Also if you have speculations about my line of work then I think theyāll be correct. ā
Actually, I cannot guess at all any profession of anyone here, unless they have somewhat āspecifiedā, nor their social and economic status, all of which are unimportant to me either here or in my reality; 9 digit bank account or Sir/Dame, Don Juanās face have little effects in my system. Education and experiences do, though. Still, my mind could not help picture/form some appearances of active ghosts here ā their air/auraā¦
I donāt know/understand how my mind came up with possible hair color and length for some ghosts and then BLANK for some others. Iām glad that my ghostly guess for DrL and his wife are quite accurate. What do English words do to my šļø
āIād also like to put my thoughts in on your questions about releasing tears, but I want to let the person you asked reply first, so Iāll come back to it sometime.ā
The stinginess of my tears is frustrating; I think the COO upbringing and some hard/traumatic experiences pressed them deep into my core. Without its resurfacing, some trapped tears would be fossilized into hardened anger/rage (not indifference/despair yet) deep within, which is really unhealthy for myself, as well as others. Growing up under āBig Brotherās eyes, I canāt Rant either; room 101 is in the Unconscious.
I just tried to put up a poem about ātearsā, but it was denied, probably a copy right issue.
Never mind, the poem is up there now.
A lot of times, othersā poems speak much more than my limited words could effectively paint for some emotionsā¦
Snow,
“The stinginess of my tears is frustrating; I think the COO upbringing and some hard/traumatic experiences pressed them deep into my core.”
I was tempted to say – even before seeing this – that I felt tears could be at odds with a Buddhistic and (moreso) a Stoic disposition that favours the dealing with things inside.
I also can hardly ever release tears over events in my real life. Very little moves me to tears. Never cried once about my LE despite the storm of other emotions it unleashed (it’s a thing with us INTs!).
About the only thing that brings me close to tears is if I hear or see anything about cruelty to children or especially to animals.
Here’s a curveball on the subject of animals. You said before in posts that you love dogs. I have found multiple times in my life that the presence of a dog can help me release sadness. I have owned a couple of dogs. Generally I bond well with them without really having to try too hard. SO and I house-sat a dog for a spell that coincided with the very worst bit of my LE. Though I might be overplaying it and bestowing talents on this dog beyond what can really be possible, he really seemed to understand the internal pain I was in, and how
much I ‘needed him’ at the time. I got emotion out through being with the dog more than I could through any human relationship.
They say dogs can feel in ‘their humans’, even those things which the human represses so deeply that they refuse to acknowledge and feel for themselves (maybe stretches to – the dog is aware of feelings in the human that even the human doesn’t know they have).
Conclusion: wanna cry? Then get a four legged friend!
Found this where Sammy explains it in terms of self harm and damage to psyche:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/playing-with-fire/#comment-20823
(sorry Sammy if I stole your thunder)
My own experience is in contrast to that, though.
I think I’ll emerge from this mentally & emotionally tougher.
Limerence hit me when I was in a rut in life, and got me over a potentially traumatic bereavement (by coincidence. LE occurred first).
So I’m quite grateful to my LO, though she will never know..
My LOās personal flaws should not and did not reduce or diminish his unintended contribution to helping heal my lifetime cptsd during my LE. Therefore, I took time and effort, against the fear for supposed āembarrassmentsā, to disclose to him twice in person, while resisting PA offers. (an authentic limerent is unable to take PA without EA reciprocation)
String-free, expressed gratitude for another human being (LO is a person, too), or for Fate, will NOT make one ālosing faceā or pride, but strengthening oneās humility, generosity and dignity.
Hey Snow,
I think we are all very unique so what works for one will not work for another limerent. Coincidentally, both you and I seem to respond to similar “solutions” against limerence. “Against” is the wrong word in the sense that you are single and get a lot of welcome energy from your LE. I am married and need to be more considerate of that, but still, the LE helped me grow as a person and I understand myself better because of it.
One more thing, maybe we are ‘just’ strangers (ghosts) on the Internet but I prefer to consider us friends on the Internet. I like you and I like your point of view.
I am actually concerned for Sammy too, although me and he don’t speak as much so I know he may get more from interacting with others on here. Let’s keep going and see where this all takes us š¦
Oh Sweet and Wise Bewitched, thank you for your sincere affectionate friendship and support! š¹
āI think we are all very unique so what works for one will not work for another limerent.ā
I totally agree with you here, and whatās why I rarely go into details of my LE or its impact on me, as a āreferenceā for anyone else here. Some went on and on repeatedly about their own unique LE and what learned from it, which is no doubt valuable to themselves, but not necessarily relevant to those who seek help for their different LE situations.
āCoincidentally, both you and I seem to respond to similar āsolutionsā against limerence.ā
Yes, we are. Iād like to focus on positive effects from all life experiences, no matter how it seemed terrible to outsidersā eyes. Every matter has black and white color, infused with many other hues in between. Word āagainstā puts limerence in the category of āevilā, without which many would not have happily married and lived āever challengedā after, like you, LaR, Mila, Adam, LE and DrL.
āAgainstā is the wrong word in the sense that you are single and get a lot of welcome energy from your LE.ā
Yes, I still get welcome and creative energy from my LE. When jolting down a couple lines in verse here and there, I had xLO in my head. There wasnāt major negative experiences in it, aside from my own annoying jealousy and written bellowing at him (I apologized for it in writing). Flawed as I pointed out, he still treated me from the beginning to the end with curtesy, empathy and respect, and I with my sincere gratitude in word and person in the end. IMO, people who do not know how to be grateful to othersā help, intended or accidental, and to life experiences, negative or positive, shall NEVER find contentment in their life, let alone happiness.
āI am married and need to be more considerate of that, but still, the LE helped me grow as a person and I understand myself better because of it.ā
Yes, the consideration for oneās own SO shows true love, respect, and responsibility. Your gains in LE demonstrates positive side of the whole LE experience, as well as mine. If we can know ourselves better and grow from any experience, even a disaster, then our time and energy was/is NOT wasted. But some tend to blame on LOs for their reasonably āout of controlā mind or complain this or thatā¦ instead of introspecting and finding ways within to make themselves better.
In COO, we are ātaught/trainedā to self-examine our own possible faults FIRST when any problems occur either in professional or person relationship, which are ALWAYS two-way traffic, never one-way either in success or in failure. The aim is not to blame other side or find a scapegoat elsewhere (like what the US government often did), but look for some constructive methods FIRST WITHIN for solutions. What other side would do is beyond our control, one can only hope (1-5% is healthy) for mutual corporation and shared learning. Sorry, I am off the topic and verbosely preach again; Iām trying to show off that I was āoddlyā and more toughly made/moulded by my COO and personal experiences. š
āOne more thing, maybe we are ājustā strangers (ghosts) on the Internet but I prefer to consider us friends on the Internet. I like you and I like your point of view.ā
It is a fact that there is multifaceted, rich human soul behind every post, and some of us talk here with a sincere mind and (suffering) heart, aside from chitchats and occasional jokes. Thus we are NOT strangers to each other in mind and soul. āStrangersā only apply to our realistic and physical identity, which IMO, has no importance here: whether owning a house with a swimming pool, or looking like Robert Redford (or Helen of Troy), attracting a million online followers in their āwalksāā¦ has no bearings here (except showing strong narcissistic traits) for our shared goal to learn about and better manage LE. Please donāt be turned off by my graphical terms/phrases used in general, I think you know well through our posts that I consider you, along wish some others, as a kindred mind and soulful friend here. š«.
āI am actually concerned for Sammy too, although me and he donāt speak as much so I know he may get more from interacting with others on here.ā
Iām always deeply amazed by your huge heart for every soul here. ššļø (a purple prose for you!) That āhysterical, confessional manifesto against all women (just because of one claimed narcissistic mother) and against imperfect humanity (āeveryone is phonyā as Holden cries out, or all limerences or other ānatural lawsā are all immoralā¦), and a āNarc/dictatorā kind of entitlement, threat and demandā¦ are shockingly disturbing, but ONLY harmful to the cryer!
Still, I do not think itās maliciously intended, based on my limited experiences with Aspies (My SO was one); Itās a deepest truth-bellowing at oneās core, finally after the accumulative, turbulent past. I was apparently an evil trigger of yesterday, but will be someone else of tomorrowā¦
āLetās keep going and see where this all takes š¦ā
Okay. š« I hope youāre doing better and better in your reality!
p.s
Have you sensed how much stranger Iāve grown since last October, this February, and even June? I did majority work on my own (with the Phantomās ears and eyes on), so even my dreams/Unconscious helped.
Thank you and some others for consistent empathy, support, and āfacelessā friendship! š¹
Good gracious, what a typo: It is supposed to be āā ā¦how much strongerā¦ā instead of āstrangerā
Hey Snow,
I knew that you meant ‘stronger’ rather than ‘stranger’. Although its a kindof funny typo when you think about it.
I am glad you feel that way. You are appear stronger, even to me. And you seem more sure of yourself and how to go about living your life these days. It’s great to sit back and think on progress like this because I believe that it shores up gratitude and resilience for when the inevitable knocks come out of nowhere. Here’s to you, girl!
Bewitched,
Due to the nature of COO system, we grew up with habitual preparations for worst unexpected or inevitable striking at any time. When they did NOT show up, we felt grateful to Fate, not our own āpowerā (individuals over there really had/has little āpower/rightsā to be themselves ā a real prison would be waiting for you). So when an unexpected showed up for the 1st time, itās hurricane; the 2nd time, a thunderstorm; the 3rd, just a showerā¦ particularly when you knew its inevitable causes.
Looking back and the experiences here, it was not bragging to say that I was 50% Stoic before coming to the West, and now growing into 80%, the mentality for me is to expect unexpected at a daily basis. Remember that I mentioned during the summer there were several uncertainties in my reality that I was preparing for their worst turnouts (some human kind, job, other nature/medical-related)? Every matter has turned out to be its best possible, including a biopsy result! šŖ
Besides returning to my previous feisty self (before LEs), Iām carrying and feeling new strength and self-confidence nowadays, after surviving and rising above many shocking or inevitable disappointments.
Having made some āghostsā friends like YOU and some others here are truly pleasant surprises and unexpected rare treasures (in general stay away from all social media or online groups, besides work or long distance necessity), which Iām so grateful beyond my words could expressā¦.
š«
Random comment here, completely unconnected to the thread.
Are there any other forums you know of, visit or post on regularly, that relate to a ‘problem’ you have that you would recommend? I know this is quite possibly sensitive for many who do, but would be interested to hear from people interested in sharing.
In many ways finding this site and the concept of limerence (well via the Observer) was an epiphany (thanks Dr Bellamy). I find this forum particularly helpful for thinking about Limerence, it’s a nice community, and far, far superior to similar places, e.g. reddit.
That said, my gut instinct is that I have other issues that are the root problem I need to get to the bottom of, with the limerence likely just a learned habit or symptom that emerged out of and which re-ocurs/relapses as a coping mechanism. Purposeful living might help if it happens again, but I do feel like it will be easier to reduce future occurences if I understoood my own triggers. I tried to find similar communities for these other issues (general life transition crises, parental issues), but without success. It just got me to thinking about whether people are here and on other sites, and the intersections.
Dear Heebie Jeebies,
I hear ya.
It’s not a forum but more a series of articles that are sometimes useful ‘Psychology Today’. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology_Today
I am not a purveyor of many sites myself due to my OCD tendencies and the potential for things to get out of control š But I am sure others here will have lots of great suggestions.
Hope you find something useful.
The thing I found most helpful was something ghostzoned recommended. You can get an AI psychologist on charater[dot]ai. If only for being able to vent the deepest corners of my limerence, it was helpful to get an outside perspective on the state of my mind. AI is trained on human data, so its like the amalgamation of human brain power on your problem. Ofc it does have its limits, but good enough for me.
For general life crisis help, there’s
Enotalone
https://www.enotalone.com
and loveshack
https://www.loveshack.org
both of which have lots of subforums.
Like reddit, don’t expect anyone to pull punches there though.
No different to reddit, really.
Limerence is nowadays clumped with regular crushes under the highly scientific term of “Oneitis”.
(most of the sites dealing with this are men’s forums, because, you know, it’s unnatural and undesirable for men to get feelings but totally expected in women..)
The methods of overcoming it can be helpful (living purposefully, that is.. not “screw ten more chicks”)
My favourite is lifemathmoney, because there’s lots of very valuable lifestyle information too.
https://lifemathmoney.com/
Thanks, good links.
Reddit is just too many whining teenies. I want politely, philosophically whining Middle aged ish people.
The bro world is an odd one…. the view of women remains particularly troubling , doesn’t seem like it has moved that far from 20 years ago when I used to go on the early forums around chads and stacies and whatever, but they have kind of taken purposeful living to such an extreme level. It’s some sort of weird mirror image of men in the 1970s with the same worldview, but completely different conclusions about how to live.
As a 90s teenager it almost feels like they are regressing
The modern dating “hell-scape” is just awful. I feel like a lot has changed for myself. Because I feel like the Women just don’t respond like they did back in the early 90s.
Back then, they didn’t have their phones and an endless supply of meat at their fingertips. They could relate better and have actual conversation. I feel like this is a reason for so much anxiety and doubt. For both sexes nowadays.
I’m trying to gain a modicum of normalcy in such a connected yet so unconnected world. My YouTube feeds are inundated with Women who feel what they think is best for Men but it’s never a one size fits all.
I guess it will never be that easy so I try to glean bits and pieces from whatever I can, so that it might somehow tailor-fit my current life situations.
@LE,
āKurt Vonnegut said, āWe are what pretend to be so we must be careful what we pretend to be.ā ā Mother Night
If people think youāre a nice guy and charming company, to them you are those things whether youāre only pretending or not.ā
The consequence of good-intentional pretending is that āpeople/the worldā get benefit from the pretense; (ie. Robin Williamsās laughters) however, the kind pretender would suffer internally for constantly repressing down/killing his/her true Self, it is a process of gnawing oneās soul ā the biggest danger of confirming and living under strict ideology or in othersā eyes/expectations.
Habitual pretending or acting in reality even for othersā benefits could eventually break one down (what happened to Holden in the story) or drive them to insanity/suicide. A true democratic society should be really open to all kinds of thoughts, emotions, opinions and free expression of them ā no thoughtcrimes, as long as no corresponding behaviors that intend to break laws or harm others externally or internally.
LaR, I just want to say something I rarely say: You were right. I was wrong not to listen to you. I see how leaning towards the F side helps you!
At first, after skimming the rant quickly, I thought it was aimed at me, and thought: ok, I’ll take it – this is how it sometimes is on the webs (*shrug). But now I know which conversations to leave alone.
Sorry, Trifles, at the time I was not in the position to help take away your worries and āupsetāā¦.
@LaR, youāre such a āknightā rushing to Triflesā side! Thanks.
Trifles,
It’s odd because I actually wondered if you’d think that and worry. I really don’t think it is because of anything you did though. I wish I could say more to reassure you, but I can’t in a public forum. Basically – don’t doubt yourself – your posts are great and I can only speak for myself, but I enjoy our interactions. Usually people just chip into conversations here quite happily and accept others doing it. Such is the nature of a public forum.
Hope you have a fun weekend!
Thanks. š After considering it, I didn’t/couldn’t take it personally and I’m glad no one else did either. On another note, my friend is back from his work trip so we are back to more frequent contact – which is good for you people on LwL(!), but perhaps not so good for me. I noticed our connection slightly fade even during the few days, and I might have been able to pull away a bit, riding that wave of LC. But now the opportunity is gone (*shrug). Perhaps another try another time…
I hope you also have a great weekend!
Trifles, LaR
Like tears, deep-rooted anger/rage and its authentic rant is very healthy to any ātorturedā mind ā the other side of the coin.
Trifles, glad you are wise not to take it personally; itās my privilege to be a worthy channelā¦ Happy to hear your friend is back, savor that warm feeling in yourselfā¦
@Snow
“Like tears, deep-rooted anger/rage and its authentic rant is very healthy to any ātorturedā mind … itās my privilege to be a worthy channel”
That’s Stoicism in its truest form, given the circumstances.
@Trifles
“I noticed our connection slightly fade even during the few days, and I might have been able to pull away a bit, riding that wave of LC. But now the opportunity is gone (*shrug).”
I experience something similar if and when I get NC periods of even a week or two. The first 3 or 4 days are bad but then with each passing day the intensity and the wish to contact lessens a little (and then I stay in a safer place for a while after contact resumes). But – I do get the feeling from bits you’ve said that it isn’t really doing much harm to you or anyone around you being in contact with him. If your deities aren’t too unsettled and it can just be enjoyed for what it is, fair play!
Snow
Iām not very good at expressing anger or rage or tears. I keep to them when Im alone and no one will see it. They feel like bad things.
Miss Snow are you my muse?
Adam,
Only a bemused can define who his/her muse is, and he/she needs to show results of that inspiration.
You are truly kind and honorable not to showing your anger/rage/tears possibly for othersā benefits. But trust me, itās really psychologically unhealthy. I think you should find some venues to let them out, be it priest, or professional therapist, or truly nonjudgmental male friends. I was forced to self-repress my tears and anger when growing up, and realized later how much mental ādamagesā had been done!
Feel free to rant to me here when you feel an urge to reach bottlesā¦.(your time zone?). But unlike that busybody Tinker-Bell, I donāt sugarcoat, as you knowā¦. Also, I donāt know enough of American culture ā songs, movies, novels, Old Testament after page 3, etc.
Tears and legitimate anger/rage are NOT bad things, please give them desired time to live and then leaveā¦
“Tears and legitimate anger/rage are NOT bad things, please give them desired time to live and then leaveā¦”
Yes @Adam, ask me how often I’ve cried over LO. I still do. There was a time I felt like driving my car into a wall over her. I’ve never felt a need to suppress tears when it comes to her. It’s like a sick comfort in a way.
I justify it because there’s no SO or anyone at home waiting for me, who will care how I feel anyway. Probably doesn’t help I put on sappy indie love songs and her playlist all the time either, but it takes me to a better place.
I don’t work too hard at eliminating completely this whole limerence episode. I won’t because it would feel like shutting a door. Besides I’ve come to kind of enjoy this forum with many of you who get me. Who get what this feels like. I guess this is what a pathetic midlifer like me does, when all else fails.
Hi MJ,
We are in the same boat in which there is no SO waiting at home, that we would never āhaveā our LOās reciprocation, that we both are unwilling to completely shut the LE door (though may for different reasons.) But you have piano skills to help express a huge range of hard-to-verbalize emotions, and you still have chances to run into your LO or drive to her gym(?).
I should have more reasons to cry, but tears just would not come! Occasionally there was moisture in the eyes, but less than reading the true story of āLord of the Fliesā. Why do you think this is my puzzling reaction when we are actually in the same shoe? (I donāt feel pathetic or self-pity š¤
The line you quoted, just like a creek, just smoothly curved out of my lips as I was chatting with Adam, since we both have hard time to get our ānegativeā emotions out. Would you tell me how to get tears out of my dried eyes, so my possibly deeply-repressed sadness could surface and then be releasedā
Wish you feel better and betterā¦.
I did not even try to get rid of my LE, a Fate intervened. But for 5 years, I tried hard to tackle my cptsd that caused my big or small LEs. When cptsd was mostly taken care of, I immediately felt released, literally over night ( through a decisive dream). Are there any underline issues that instigated/fanned your LE and that you could possibly work on more?
Seriously, I envy your tears. In the past whenever I had them, I felt so much better and liberated afterwards. Could you enlighten me how to drive more tears in oneās system?
A big typo again ā it should be ādeserved time to live and leaveāā¦ not ādesired timeā.
Iāve got a lot of LwL slips lately: āstrangerā for āstrongerā, and ādesiredā for ādeservedāā¦ all not as brilliant Imhoās āfondledā for āfondedāā¦.
Miss Snow
It infuriates me the level of emotions she elicits. I pride myself on burying them. Drowning them. Its easier than facing them. I donāt like she did that to me. But I realize thats stupid limerence.
@Adam,
The key issue you have here is you are trying too hard ādrowningā and āburyingā human emotions ā any type. You cannot and most (if not all) human beings cannot control and get rid of unwanted emotions sheerly by will. The harder you press them down, the stronger theyād bounce back, it is a law of Physics!
I donāt preach anything that I havenāt tried myself: why donāt try meditative approach for once ā just watch LE emotions coming and going, hitting you and leaving you, each time weakened? If you look at them without ANNOYANCE but calm acceptance, they will eventually leave, trust me. Mila, Bewitched and LaR have tried, ask them if you donāt believe me.
Itās very, very challenging, more painful at beginning than āburying and drowningā them; however, you canāt numb the pains with bottles. Only sober mind/brain, without JUDGEMENT of all emotions, and willingness to āsurrenderā, can help let go any unwanted emotions.
Pride yourself as a strong gentle man, are you willing to give it a try? Iāll be here if you need some helpā¦. But first, you have to Gradually say goodbye to all your bottles.
“Seriously, I envy your tears. In the past whenever I had them, I felt so much better and liberated afterwards. Could you enlighten me how to drive more tears in oneās system?”
@Snow,
It is impossible for me to gauge what ails you and/or brings you down. I don’t really know your personal life or history so I can’t say how your past currently affects you as a person.
For myself, I would say that I have always been closely connected to my own emotions. As an only-child, this came almost natural to me because there was really nobody else I could talk to about stuff or take my feelings out upon. I became prayerfully-minded at an early age, so talking to God was probably my main outlet. You would think that would have caused me to make proper choices in life, however it did only the opposite. I was never good at relationships with the opposite sex. When my then-Wife and I married back in the late 90s, it was really only to satisfy our many years of friendship and “some” love, and to make babies, she so desperately wanted. What a piss-poor reason to marry someone, right?? It was icing on the cake and there were plenty of good times over the years with her, but I was never committed like I should have been. I became bored with marriage. I found outlets with many other Women, (mainly Colleagues) and got heavily invested in strip-clubbing and pornography. I became a fraud and made a lot of bad choices over time and it finally caught up to me. (I’m making a long story, short)
Consequently we separated in 2009 and divorced in 2011. It was really all her choice, but I admit we did have a lot of crap to sort out.
Now in my 50s, my Ex and are still Friends but I look back on almost everything with a ton of regret. I look at my $#it choices and see how that has greatly affected my Daughter, who is very much on the fence of never forgiving me. I may never reach her, but I keep trying. It is very difficult. My Mother passed away in 2018 and ever since, Dads health has gone all downhill. This takes up an enormous amount of time now and mental strength to take on. He will most likely never get better. Every new day can be a surprise.
My last real relationship lasted about 2 years. It too was with a Colleague at my last job before I moved on to my now current Employer. I thought her and I were headed for better days, but she lost interest, also found another job and pretty much Friend-zoned me. I said to hell with her. I had my Cats at the house to try and befriend. (The vile little creatures) I didn’t need another Friend. Especially since I thought I was so good for this Woman. Apparently the feelings could not be mutual. I was very sad and emotional over this loss for months.
After another failed attempt at a Woman who eventually revealed she was married, (I almost got into some serious bs with) LO arrived on the scene in early 2022. I might have said hello to her once or twice before, but the glimmer and LE didn’t hit me like a train till the summertime. Little did I know the roller coaster ride I was about to go on. Thinking for a good six months I had found the Woman of my dreams, only to find out I could not have been more wrong and it would be all for nothing.
It’s easy to see now how my letdowns and failures caused my LE to fester and muster up so many emotions within. LO became like comfort-food and the idea of her was all the fantasy I needed to get by in a day. But never actually knowing her, coupled with hope and uncertainty brought on anxiety that I’ve never ever felt for another human-being. There are times still where I wonder if I’ll ever be totally over her. Do I really want to be over her? Sometimes I think not.
Realizing the madness and trying to live purposefully, defaulted me into walking up to my current Lady Friend at work one night and introducing myself. I simply wasn’t going to let more of her obvious eye contact get away and not try to figure it out. This has overall proved to be something positive and she has become a trusted Friend to me, but she also brings with her, her own set of baggage, of which I do what I can to work around. Trying not to disclose just how excited she makes me without trying to make it all too obvious. She likes to joke with me now and call me her Stalker. But that’s because I always find myself in places at work where she’s at. (I’m terrible at hiding my interest and I think she knows it) Its become a common thing, but overall she doesn’t reciprocate because she’s a fearful avoidant and not ready to date. This has caused me some considerable anxiety also, but I’m still nowhere near in the depressive place like I was over LO. Having a good cry now and then still helps me.
I did recently reveal to her my piano playing skills and I feel like that intrigued her. It is something I would enjoy getting back to but need to make time for. It’s difficult to having any time while caring for Dad on the weekends.
This is only a glimpse of my sadness. Why I can and choose to be emotional. I don’t know if you (@Snow) or anyone here can relate. This LE I like to believe has made me a better thinker and to take matters by the reigns when necessary. I pray it will make me a better person in the end. Afterall, isn’t this what the Good Lord tells us to do when we have to pick up our cross to follow him??
@MJ
Thank you for taking time to answer my hard questions.
āIt is impossible for me to gauge what ails you and/or brings you down. I donāt really know your personal life or history so I canāt say how your past currently affects you as a person.ā
Fair points! My personal life is a long, hard winding road, itās like at least two or three ordinary Western individual live combined. Last year, xLO and I briefly celebrated my ā4th lifeā (defined by a huge spiritual change) in his open-door office with a glass of aged red wine. He was always superficially empathetic and supportive, at least.
Since more than often I had perceived and expected the worst or the least down my worldly road, except this big sudden job shrinkage (few knew its coming), there has not been big āhardshipā to bring me down in the past 8 years. I thought Iād be devastated after xLO left, but surprisingly Iāve been doing okay or even better, particularly after cptsd was hugely āremovedā ā the fundamental causes of all my LEs.
ā For myself, I would say that I have always been closely connected to my own emotions. As an only-child, this came almost natural to me because there was really nobody else I could talk to about stuff or take my feelings out upon.ā
I forgot about our another shared fact: we are both a single child, feeling terribly lonely in childhood, particularly when I was sent to that weekly ākid-boarding schoolā from 4-6 yrs. From others, I learned I was not crying/whinny type, but a rebel. I was told being chatty with a nickname the ātalkative Snowā, and fearless/ignorant to break big or small rules even at four. I might have invented a Phantom to be my bosom friend back then, who knows!
Iāve been following your story off and on, youāve just brushed up my memory more. I can understand better why youāre feeling what youāve been feeling. By any standards (the West and East), it has several heavy losses, worth of a stream of tears. My life has its share of losses as well, out of external misfortunes, internal careless, wishful, misjudging steps, I wish I could take a Tardis to travel back to correct my mistakes. I worked in several therapistsā room to learn about my cptsd impacts, my LE actually pushed its monumental healing. Of course, I did not want it to end, despite it is totally futile in its original pair-ponding aim.
Iām sorry to hear about your Dadās continuous deteriorating health, that day will eventually come to me for Mom who was the originator of my cptsd. For now, sheās fairly healthy and lives independently, unless she needs English translation aid. Aging and sickness are inevitable, we all have to mentally prepare for an unpleasant inevitables. Itās NAUTRE.
āItās easy to see now how my letdowns and failures caused my LE to fester and muster up so many emotions within.ā
Yes, I can see it better now. I failed in relationship as well before and after divorce, but mostly due to one side was unavailable and I was too choosy with men from dating apps, just could not āfallā for them, no matter whatā¦. So there was no reasons to cry in those situations.
āLO became like comfort-food and the idea of her was all the fantasy I needed to get by in a day. But never actually knowing her, coupled with hope and uncertainty brought on anxiety that Iāve never ever felt for another human-being.ā
Since she was available but āunreachableā, I can understand your fantasy and hope that still serve you as a comfort food. In my case, itās a hopeless to begin with, so I never hoped or chased anything for the first 4 years of my LE, I felt lucky to have seemingly got a surrogate parent right after Fatherās death, of course without any idea what limerence is. There was still deeply puzzling anxiety involved, relating āfriendshipā wish I had in my mind, but not in othersā eyes.
āThere are times still where I wonder if Iāll ever be totally over her. Do I really want to be over her? Sometimes I think not.ā
I donāt have any answer for that. I know/understand what warmth or a bit of sunshine out of that ajar LE door could bring to you, and me, but I use it for my sporadic writing, focused engagement in interacting with others in my ānewā offline and online life. Looking the pastās losses is Futile and helps nothing now or future. LO may have already forgot me, but thatās irrelevant to the quality of my life, in which Iām the sole creator of my joys or pains. Iām 80% Stoic now. If more thunders strike, Iāll become a 100%, smiling Stoic soon šŖ Then Iād have NO tears, oh boy! š¤
It sounds very encouraging in your friendship with your Lady friend. I agree with your approach, just take it easy one step or no step at a time, not pushing for anything, especially if you think sheās avoidant attachment style. If it doesnāt go any further, itās still a warm, fulfilling friendship, which is highly valued in my upbringing. Maybe this warm friendship could help ease or slow down the flow of your accumulated sad tears from the past?
m still nowhere near in the depressive place like I was over LO. Having a good cry now and then still helps me.
āI did recently reveal to her my piano playing skills and I feel like that intrigued her. It is something I would enjoy getting back to but need to make time for. Itās difficult to having any time while caring for Dad on the weekends.ā
I strongly encourage you to pick up your piano practices even just 15 minutes a day, for YOURSELF, not aim to impress anyone else! Music, particularly played by oneself, no matter how crappy, could soothe any soul, maybe when you get better at it, it could draw your lady friend closer, no one can resist piano! Iām still at crawling stage in learning my piano, but anytime I hit the keys, something inside me calms down immediately.ā¦
āThis is only a glimpse of my sadness. Why I can and choose to be emotional. I donāt know if you (@Snow) or anyone here can relate.ā
Based on one Eastern energy theory, over emotional or depressed has something to do with circulation of oneās physical energy: in formal, over-flowing; in latter, poorly circulating or being stuck. To me, emotions are not out of oneās choice; thinking could be chosen, more easily than feelings.
āThis LE I like to believe has made me a better thinker and to take matters by the reigns when necessary. ā
Yes, I see you are becoming much clearer minded and more joyful feelings with your reality. I hope it continues to be better and you stronger. I believe in your own mental efforts, nothing else and no one else.
Good lucks, MJ.
@Snow,
Thank you for your kind words. I don’t believe we’ve ever connected much via this forum but I appreciate this chat and the time you took to respond.
You seem to be the type that has their emotions well in-check. If that is what works to get you by, then so be it.
True that much of what I feel is futile. For things never really get better or worse as a result of whatever emotion I’m in the moment with. I used to believe if LO knew how much I cried over her, by default she would have to feel sorry for me and love me back in return. I mean I really actually believed that but it’s just ridiculous isn’t it?
Having all this emotion all the time feels like I carry a lot but when I’m done with my anxiety for the day, some weight feels like has been lifted. Still not as sad as I was for a long time.
Would watching a sad movie ever bring you down? Perhaps that might stir some emotions up in you.. Asking because I’m curious.
@MJ,
āTrue that much of what I feel is futile. For things never really get better or worse as a result of whatever emotion Iām in the moment with. ā
From my learning and therapy experiences, let emotions out in a āsafeā environment helps reduce/remove deep stresses trapped inside one; or sadness/grief could be explored in volcanic rage/fury, as we have witnessed, harmful not only to themselves, but possibly to others, if others happen to be vulnerable or insecure.
āI used to believe if LO knew how much I cried over her, by default she would have to feel sorry for me and love me back in return. I mean I really actually believed that but itās just ridiculous isnāt it?ā
There is another post said something similar, I responded briefly a while ago. To hope for and rely on othersā behaviors towards oneself, based on both Stoic and Buddhism, is just Unwise! In COO, weāre taught by adults or othersā examples not to āfancyā such futility.
Even if your LO is kind but not interested in your romantically, sheāll feel sympathetic for you, but sympathy is neither love nor admiration! I used to think like you in my past āLEsā. Itās through this LE, I learned that our DNA pair-bonding desire selects its own potential, best fitting partner, subconsciously through Glimmer.
Sympathy has little place in mating selection, no mature men or women want to be anotherās mental nurse in romance, itās not an arena to practice Christian/Buddhistic virtues. If you want to attract women/men, make your own best ātop-hatā to wear and then be yourself, not a copycat of anyone else. Also, no one would date your history/past ā just a concept not the person, but YOU as a person fully present and engaged.
āHaving all this emotion all the time feels like I carry a lot but when Iām done with my anxiety for the day, some weight feels like has been lifted. Still not as sad as I was for a long time.ā
Yes, thatās the power of tears, which I wish I could have more for myself.
āWould watching a sad movie ever bring you down? Perhaps that might stir some emotions up in you.. Asking because Iām curious.ā
They used to make me feel deeply sad and depressed but much less in recent years, because I could spot easily some humanās follies or Fateās hand behind those tragedies. As a half buddhist, I learned to accept othersā and the worldās tragedies with sympathies/empathies, but not involvement. No one else could help these mental/emotional sufferers, except themselves, perhaps with therapistsā assistances. By Stoicism, change oneās own mentality will certainly better oneās own life quality and largely remove elements of so called āFateā.
This answer is also to LaR,
I cannot bear āwatchingā/hearing about children and animals being mistreated even in stories, let alone in any realistic news. If theyāre rescued, Iāll read about it and pour out of a bucket of touched tears. I can also be touched in tears, sadly or happily, by fictional characters in books and movies, or real events, such as the real event of āLord of fliesā. I just cannot shred tears for MYSELF!
Self pity with its tears is looked down upon heavily in my COO as signs weakness, girls and boys are trained not to shred tears, not only in front of others, who could take advantage of it, but also privately, because it is believed to āweakenā mind. Knowledge and services in mental health over there is 100 years behind the West. As I said before, being wise and strong is one of the nationās character traits over there. But too many people are just too cunning not humane, very mentally tiring to deal with. Almost no one shows their own face, especially vulnerabilities.
MJ, sorry to be a bit frank here: pick up your piano practices, getting it better and better. It will help bring more joyful tears, not sad ones. While interacting with anyone else, act your best Self, holding little or NO expectation from them, except finding ways to appreciate/savor/enjoy any pleasantry at their presence and your interaction with them. A change of mind set and concrete actions are need in reduce/remove our shared limerence pains.
LaR,
“It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.” ā Andre Gide.
Iād rather be a free š¦āš„ chipping campy Purple Prose āļø, than a high- chined āClass Actā!
Thanks Snow. I didn’t want to name any names so as not to call any more attention to an episode that’s best forgotten/let go of. But I meant that I’m glad *you* didn’t take it personally. I had already accepted serving as the lightning rod (before I saw that it was your name that was mentioned), but unfortunately it (tried to) hit you. Luckily you don’t let anything get to you, but instead understand the bigger purpose.
LaR, no it’s not doing any harm to anyone around me. And I’m of the school of thought that he looks out for what’s best for him, no one else can do it for him. But I do realize that continuing to build a stronger and stronger attachment (as it inevitably becomes over time) is probably not wise – or at least it’s futile! – when we cannot even meet in person.
Trifles,
“Iām of the school of thought that he looks out for whatās best for him, no one else can do it for him”
I can hear your NTP so strongly in that statement! (and in what you say about attachments). You can harness this thinking style to alter the dynamic of your ‘friendship’ (I don’t want to say LE) if and whenever you need to.
Ha, that may sound quite cold*, but that’s how it is. He knows that he can let me know if he no longer wants to be in contact. And then I’ll try to(!) adjust to that. I think what motivates me in difficult things, like NC, is accountability that comes from the outside. I don’t trust my own willpower, I don’t have a great track record with it!
*) But funny, thinking about what I said in my previous comment, I thought it sounded like I’m afraid of strong feelings – and I suppose I am.